Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-05

CAPT VAN NIEKERK: That was on the 2nd January. You are referring to that date.   Yes, Chairperson, on the 2nd January myself and Mr Gerrie van der Merwe went to see Mr Simon Skosana and Mr Piet Ntuli and perhaps a few others of the cabinet members.  We got them in his office and we started discussing this but Skosana was out of control.  He started shouting to such an extent that Mr Gerrie van der Merwe, who is a very calm and collected person, also jumped up and told him that if you really want to start fighting I can do it as well and then we do it today.  But this is all about what happened yesterday in Moutse.  And then he said he was not going to talk to us and he is going to take 115 battalion, that is the battalion who was in training for Kwandebele, and he would take them and he would then come and have victory over Moutse and Mr Vercuil who was also present then said to him I am sorry but I have to inform you that only five have arrived this morning, and that is from 115 battalion and he threw his arms in the air and he fell onto a chair and shortly after that someone came in to the room and whispered something, that was to him, and he jumped up again and he said you are here, you want to talk but whilst you are talking here Moutse's people are attacking Kwandebele and I didn't mention it in my memo, it was in Patla, they are attacking Patla. I went to the radio, I got Major Malan on the radio, he was busy patrolling and I told him here is an accusation that Moutse people are attacking Patla and he said he is on Patla and he said but there is nothing happening and I asked him what are you doing there, he said that they are actually just going through the place
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just to find out whether there aren't perhaps any bodies or any people after the fighting of the previous day. So I went back and I told the chief minister that is only a story, Malan is on the scene and nothing is happening.   Mr Van der Merwe and myself just wanted to start with them again and then Piet Ntuli came in, I think it was him, and he said the Moutse people hijacked a Putco bus and they slit 15 Ndebeles throats and I asked where and they said it is on the gravel road from Siyabuswa that goes through to Denelton, I can't remember the name, so I went out again, got patrols and told them to immediately go to this place, that is the allegation that was made.  I contacted Putco to hear whether there was a but with blood or broken windows or whatever.  Reports were all negative, there wasn't something like that.  So I went back to them again.  I told them a bus wasn't hijacked, Ndebeles throats weren't slit but they didn't want to believe me.  And they said but they have a man who saw that and I said right, show this man and they brought him.  I sent a section out with the man and I also had a look.  I could find nothing.  The man went with them and the policemen told me that when they had got to a specific point he said yes they are here and they asked him where it was and he pointed to the field.  The policemen went into the field, they walked in there and when they looked back this man, this is now the informer, went into the combi and he just disappeared.  Up to today.  This is how it continued.  And later that day in the parliament room in front of a large group of delegates I had to explain that such an incident did not occur.  And that evening at home Munswini phoned me and he said today you told us that people weren't killed but their widows are sitting in front of my house and
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they are looking for their husbands.  So from my home I had to arrange that they go to his house and find the widows and they reported to me that they couldn't find any women who then alleged that their husbands were killed.  Now the discussions concerning this issue went on to the next morning, in the early morning hours. I had to be at the office at seven the next morning but it went on to more or less four o'clock the next morning.  Every now and again there was a telephonic conversation with Munswini concerning the alleged slitting of the throats of these people.  And that same day a large group of policemen had to go to Uitvlug to investigate the murder of the two policemen the previous day, to see whether they couldn't find the culprits.  So on that particular day we were running to and fro.

DR RANDERA: .. of the witnesses who came in on Monday who were in fact tortured at the hall on that day implied that the police were working with Mbokoto and stood by whilst this was happening.  Can you shed some light on that?

CAPT VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, I really cannot think of a Kwandebele policeman who would have tortured those people with Mbokoto on that particular day or be there.  It could have seemed to be like that.  But I could not have dreamt on that day because I had the impression that they were beaten.  I could not have dreamt that on that day that they would have in fact - that they would have kidnapped people.  I cannot think that policemen would have been involved.  With my knowledge of policemen I really have strong doubts about that.

DR RANDERA: I was interested to hear just earlier on you saying that your telephones were bugged by National
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Intelligence at the time that you were wanting to fax a document.  Again can you just enlarge on that.

CAPT VAN NIEKERK: Not Military Intelligence, it was National Intelligence, a certain Mr Victor.  Him and Simon Gouws, they worked together.  I can perhaps say that they were very close friends with the cabinet.  When the riots broke out when the papaw hit the fan at Kameeldrif River he was with the head minister in London and in his own words he said to make arrangements for the casinos, the licences for casinos.  So this Victor I didn't trust him, my direct telephone when I concluded my conversation it didn't want to switch off and then I had to make urgent telephone calls through the telephonist and I reported this and one day I was very upset, I actually swore at the technician and Victor I also told him that he was going to perhaps listen to the tape recording of my conversation.  I also have to tell you that other conversations in my office pertaining to issues concerning information from the Kwandebele cabinet, those things we discussed outside of my office under a tree.  It might sound strange to you that a government's police head cannot say things to his own government. I had to hide it away from them, that was my position unfortunately.

DR RANDERA: ... some more questions but I will hand over to the Chairperson and to my colleagues for the moment.

RUSSELL ALLY: General Van Niekerk, just to come back to some issues that you mentioned, you mentioned the name Gouws, is that Simeon Gouws who you were referring to?

CAPT VAN NIEKERK: Professor Simon Gouws.

RUSSELL ALLY: Just tell us a little bit about what his exact role was.

CAPT VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, I was informed at the time
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that - in fact he admitted it to me himself that he was an adviser to the Chief Minister.  I do not know if he was in the service of the Republic of South Africa or if he was in the service of the Kwandebele government but from a document which I have available to me it appears as though he was fairly involved with my withdrawal from Kwandebele.  I do not know if you have the document.  If you do not have it I do have it available and I can make copies available to you.