Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Mr Nofomela I'm putting this to you because if you want amnesty you should tell us the whole truth and I'm getting the impression that you are saying I've always had only a minor role to play, I only fired one shot, I wasn't involved, I never killed anybody as far as we've heard up to now.   I'm not sure that you're in fact telling us the whole truth.

MR DE WET-MARAIS: Mr Chairman that statement is not correct, the witness has given evidence about Mr Mkenge where he participated personally in the killing and stabbed him with a knife.
3b	MR /...
MEMBER OF COMMISSION	72	NOFOMELA

UNKNOWN: Have you fired more than one shot at a person?

ANSWER: It's possible sir that where there were several of us firing that I fired several times without knowing whether I had finished a magazine or not.   What I am saying here is what I recall and what I am sure about, but you know I'm not sure exaggerating in order to strengthen my case for the sake of amnesty would be the correct thing to do.

UNKNOWN: Would it be correct to minimise your role either?

ANSWER: I did play a role sir and it is possible that the bullet fired from my firearm is the one that injured or fatally the person.   I am not trying to create an impression that I played a lesser role than any of the other applicants, I'm not trying to hide anything.   Firstly sir I am the one that said I am the one who mentioned the story about the hit squads when everyone else was denying it.   Why would I then come here today and try and portray myself as being less guilty than anyone else.   I am sorry that you see it as, you seem to be getting the impression that I am trying to portray myself as less guilty than the others or that I played a lesser role than everyone else.   I did participate and the facts that I am putting before you today is as I can recall.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Nofomela you had the house under surveillance on the incident in question, you and Mr Mamasela.   Mr Mamasela obviously was familiar with the surroundings, he knew the house fairly well.   What was the reason then during that day to have the house under surveillance?

ANSWER: Sir the way Joe knew that area, I am not saying
3b	that /...
MEMBER OF COMMISSION	73	NOFOMELA
that he knew that house before we went there, but the way in which he knew the area so that it was easier for me also to be able to identify this house as the house that we were targeting.   That is why he went with me, because he knew the area so well.

SISI KHAMPEPE: On your way to that house, you didn't speak at all about the identity of the people who owned that house, do you want to have us believe that?

ANSWER: It is possible that we did speak, but what I can remember, especially after this incident, Joe spoke quite a lot about this saying that he knew Joyce Dibali and he had no doubt that he had killed her.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ...in your earlier evidence when you stated that you didn't know the name Joyce Dibali?

ANSWER: I did say earlier that after the incident he spoke quite often about her, even before that where I mentioned Mohabi Dibali and where they spoke about Joyce Dibali and Mohabi Dibali.

UNKNOWN: The name of the husband was Rola, did you ever hear the name Rola Dibali?

ANSWER: It's possible that I could have heard it, I don't know the name.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to the firearms you used that day?

ANSWER: I remember giving them back to Dirk Coetzee after we had used them.   The one that was given to me I gave back to him.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MEMBERS OF COMMISSION
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DE WET-MARAIS
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE
WITNESS IS EXCUSED

MR DE WET-MARAIS: Mr Chairman the next incident I think
3b	that /...
MR DE WET-MARAIS	74	ADDRESS
that my learned friend proposes to deal with involves the same witness.   Apparently not.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, to mention this that in this incident that we're busy with now, the Joyce Dibali incident (end of 3b)...it was a bit difficult for me to communicate with her and she has indicated to me that she is not going to testify because she cannot speak for herself, she has undergone a stroke, she has (indistinct) and amnesia and quite a number of things.   She says she will be seated in here to listen to the evidence.   I may perhaps just to show the Chairman what she has written on the return of service to confirm what I have said, that she won't be able to talk for herself Mr Chairman, she is satisfied with just listening.

CHAIRPERSON: In this letter she mentions the names of Joe Kadi and Mohabi Dibali and she wants to know if you could find out what happened to these people?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairman, she has mentioned those names.  I have explained to her that Joe Kabi is unknown to me, nobody has applied for the death of Joe Kabi and the mentioning of Mohabi Dibali, she was just indicating to me that Mohabi Dibali is the incident which we are going to deal with next, it is her brother.

CHAIRPERSON: She wanted to know whether you could ask Dirk Coetzee about Joe Kabi.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, as I was talking to her she did not indicate that to me, she just said she wanted them to tell about what they have done to the people, including Joe Kabi and I said they won't say anything about Joe Kabi because they have not applied for amnesty affecting Joe Kabi.   Perhaps Mr Chairman to round it up, she has indicated to me
4a	that /...
MR MPSHE	75	ADDRESS
that she does not know the whereabouts of the other woman with whom she was in the house, but I must put it on record that her recollection is quite incoherent, she cannot remember quite a number of things that happened on that day.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Where do we proceed to now?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman if it is permissible at this time then we move to the next matter, that is almost linked to the one we have dealt with, that will be in Nofomela's application, that is matter No 3 on page 5.  That is the abduction of Mohabi Dibali, the brother to Joyce.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nofomela can be called back again.
4a	ALMOND/...
76
ALMOND NOFOMELA (suo)
EXAMINATION BY MR DE WET-MARAIS

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Nofomela by whom were you briefed in 1981 about the abduction of a person by the name of Mohabi Dibali?

ANSWER: Captain Jan Coetzee and Lt Vermeulen.

<UNKNOWN>: What were their instructions to you?

ANSWER: They instructed myself and Joe Mamasela that we should go to Soweto and go and abduct Mohabi Dibali saying that they would like to question him about his sister who is a member of the ANC.

<UNKNOWN>: Did any of you know Mohabi Dibali?

ANSWER: Yes sir.

<UNKNOWN>: (Inaudible).

ANSWER: Joe Mamasela knew Mohabi Dibali.

<UNKNOWN>: Can you describe to the Committee the abduction of Mohabi Dibali?

ANSWER: We left Vlakplaas, Joe Mamasela and I, after we had been instructed by Jan Coetzee and Lt Vermeulen and Jan Coetzee had said that we should use false number plates on my vehicle which we were using.   We went to Soweto and when we were near the place, I can't remember who remembered between Joe and myself, who remembered that we did not swop number plates.   I remember Joe going to urinate outside so that he could wet some sand and then he covered my number plates, I think he was driving at that stage, because he knew Soweto better than I did.   I'm not sure but we went to Soweto to the house where Dibali was staying, Joe knew that house, he even knew the address.   When we go there we encountered a lady, I think it was a young girl if I remember correctly, and when we got there Joe asked where is
4a	Mohabi /...
MR DE WET-MARAIS	77	NOFOMELA
Mohabi Dibali.   This girl said...(the speaker's microphone is not on)...

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, you were talking about the young lady that you encountered?