Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-27

MS COLERIDGE: And what was the other operation, Toddler, which was your operation?

LEON A MAREE: That was the project name for my blue plan, yes, Toddler.

MS COLERIDGE: So it was just in relation to your blue plan?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: And then just in relation to the DCC, we know that lots of CCB members, about 30 odd of them, worked for the DCC after 1990.

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: And you were one of them.

LEON A MAREE: I was one of them, yes.

MS COLERIDGE: Your companies that you had at the time, was that also used as front companies for DCC?

LEON A MAREE: No, that was finished then.

MS COLERIDGE: But you still have these companies today?

LEON A MAREE: I still have these companies going at the moment, yes.

MS COLERIDGE: So who operated those companies at that time?

LEON A MAREE: My partner.

MS COLERIDGE: And why did you leave the DCC?

LEON A MAREE: We were - after the Goldstone, Judge Goldstone raided the offices and all the CCB people were paid off.

MS COLERIDGE: Was it because you were involved in illegal activities besides intelligence work, because wasn't the DCC ..(intervention)

LEON A MAREE: No because I was ...(indistinct) and for DCC I was working in overseas countries as well, I wasn't working internally.

MS COLERIDGE: So you're saying, were you dismissed?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: For doing nothing, basically?

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any re-examination Mr du Plessis?

MR P DU PLESSIS: No thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR P DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, any questions?

MR LAX: Thanks Chair, I've just got two.  You said that at one point, this was if you'd realised what the implications of
your order to go to Namibia might have been, in retrospect you might have acted differently.  That was your evidence.  What did you mean by that?

LEON A MAREE: In regard to the person I placed there?

MR LAX: Yes.  I'm not sure what you meant, that's what I'm trying to understand.

LEON A MAREE: No, I understood the question to be if I had to recruit somebody, why would I recruit somebody like Aitchison and in retrospect, I didn't recruit him, so I had no option, I took him for what he was.  If I had to recruit, think of somebody to put as a sleeper, I would not choose him, I'd have chosen somebody else.

MR LAX: You also said that at the time you were worried about him.

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR LAX: What did you do about it?

LEON A MAREE: I reported it to Mr Verster and Mr Basson.

MR LAX: Did you not recommend that he be removed from there?

LEON A MAREE: Well, I explained to them and they said I should leave him there.  As I say, he had a phobia about being a spy and everybody is following him around and the KGB and CIA and he was taking photographs of people following him around and I was concerned about that.

MR LAX: It seems, you've read Aitchison's CV.

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR LAX: And you would have had no doubt after reading that what kind of person he was.

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR LAX: And yet you continued to handle him.

LEON A MAREE: Yes, that's what I was trying to explain to you that if I had to recruit somebody, I would not have chosen him, I would have chosen somebody else.

MR LAX: Now besides visiting him from time to time, or speaking to him on the phone, how did you actually handle him?

LEON A MAREE: I handled him as you say by phone and speaking to him.  Nothing had been ...(indistinct) I was only just supposed to settle him in and this is what I was trying to do, by trying to get him accommodation, trying to get his house, trying to get his kids there and trying to get his furniture and his wife there.  That was my initial ...(indistinct) to try and get him settled there.

MR LAX: The impression I certainly get about him was that he was playing a double game with you.

LEON A MAREE: I agree with you.

MR LAX: You didn't pick that up at all?

LEON A MAREE: No, I didn't think that he was playing a double game, but I thought he was playing James Bond, I wasn't aware that he was doing something else, but as I said, I was concerned and I did bring it up with the people, I'm not happy with him.

MR LAX: Because if half the things he says in his statement are even vaguely true, he was quite busy in Namibia.

LEON A MAREE: Apparently.

MR LAX: And yet you didn't pick that up as his handler at all.

LEON A MAREE: No.

MR LAX: Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, any questions?

MR SIBANYONI: Just one, Mr Chairperson.  Your partner, you said he accompanied you overseas and the cost was paid by the Defence Force.

LEON A MAREE: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: Was your partner not aware of that?

LEON A MAREE: No.  No at that stage he was a minor partner and he was under the impression that I was putting the money in personally, he wasn't aware that the Defence Force was putting this money into the company, so I paid for his ticket, but in reality the Defence Force was paying for his ticket.

MR SIBANYONI: He didn't know that?

LEON A MAREE: No, he didn't know that, no not at all, no.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR LAX: Sorry, just one last thing.  Your other business, Capall, did you notify that partner?

LEON A MAREE: I notified him as well and I gave him the company when I withdrew because I was too far away from Durban to run it.

MR LAX: .  So do you still have interests in those companies?

LEON A MAREE: I have interests in Lema yes.  Not in Capall.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Are there any questions arising?  No questions arising.  Mr Maree that then concludes your evidence, you may stand down now.

LEON A MAREE: Thank you Sir.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We'll now take the lunch adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Coetzee, I take it, is Mr Barnard going to be the next applicant?

MR COETZEE: Yes, Mr Chairman, Mr Barnard is ready to testify.  He will testify in Afrikaans.  He can be questioned in English, but will answer in Afrikaans.