Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-05

YASMINE SOOKA: Absolutely.  If you are not going to do it now you must be given an opportunity at some stage, so I can't see a problem with that.
MR   (?): No, I fully agree, I just wanted to have some clarity on the issue.  Thank you.

YASMINE SOOKA: Okay, we'll adjourn for five minutes and you can agree between yourselves and come back to us.
MR   (?): We're indebted to the Commission.  Thank you.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT
ON RESUMPTION

MR LYSTER: By agreement with counsel present we - it is agreed that Mr Mkhize will be called again at a later stage, he is excused for the time being.  He will be recalled within the next week to give further evidence as to his activities/deployment in KwaZulu-Natal and he is still under oath and he will be notified in due course as to when he will be recalled.  Counsel for those people who
 /have
2A have been detrimentally implicated will then be given an opportunity to cross-examine him on the evidence that he has given today and yesterday as well as on evidence which he will give later in this week or next week.
MR   (?): Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Can we be excused at this stage?  Thank you.
MR   (?): Mr Chairman, I'm terribly sorry, but I'm constrained to ask the question which I think is exercising all of our minds and that is, is there really a reason why this man can't continue with his evidence at this stage?  And I'll tell you why I'm mentioning this matter.  If the intention is that submissions by Mr Varney are going to be heard before he continues with his evidence - well, if then - if that's not the case, then I've got no problem.

MR LYSTER: No, it has nothing to do with what Mr Varney may or may not say and it really is to look at these things into various stages or themes and it really is for practical reasons and it doesn't go beyond that at all.
MR   (?): Thank you for clarifying that, Mr Chairman, because that was a real concern we had.

MR LYSTER: Mr Macadam.

MR MACADAM: Mr Chairperson, I'd like to at this stage then call Daluxolo Wordsworth Luthuli.  Can you hear us, Mr Luthuli?

INTERPRETER: Yes.

MR LYSTER: Mr Stewart, if you could just place yourself on record.

MR STEWART: My name is Angus Stewart.  I'm an advocate at the Durban Bar briefed by the Campus Law Clinic.  I'm
 /representing
2A representing Mr Luthuli and his interests in these proceedings.

MR LYSTER: Thank you.  Mr Luthuli, are you - you can hear me through the earphones?  Are you familiar with the machinery, the simultaneous translation?  Thank you.  Can you give us your full names, please?

DALUXOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (Sworn States) (Through Interpreter)

MR LYSTER: Mr Macadam.

MR MACADAM: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Luthuli, how old are you at this stage?

WITNESS:   I'm 49 years old.

MR MACADAM: Is it correct that you originally grew up in the Hammarsdale area of KwaZulu-Natal?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MACADAM: And is it further correct that your family had a long term association with the political party, the African National Congress?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's correct.

MR MACADAM: And after the banning of this organisation as a political party, did you at any stage decide to join the armed wing of the African National Congress known as Umkhonto Wesizwe?

WITNESS:   That's ... [break in recording].

MR MACADAM: And as a result of that decision, did you then proceed to leave the country and received extensive military training?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's correct.

MR MACADAM: And having received this training, were you then deployed by Umkhonto Wesizwe in an operational context?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MACADAM: And at a certain stage, were you arrested and put on trial on a terrorism related charge?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's correct.

MR MACADAM: And you were sentenced to a lengthy term of imprisonment to be served at Robben Island?

WITNESS:   Yes,

MR MACADAM: /that's

MR MACADAM: 2A that's correct.

MR MACADAM: When you were released from serving that term of imprisonment, did you become involved in politics at all?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MACADAM: How did you become involved in politics?

WITNESS:   Coming out from prison I joined the IFP.  However, I wasn't a very active person, as I have become active in 1985.

MR MACADAM: And in 1985, did you still have any loyalty or affiliation to the African National Congress?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MACADAM: And did that loyalty or affiliation change at any stage?

WITNESS:   Yes, it changed, because the ANC regarded Inkatha as the enemy of the people.

MR MACADAM: [Break in recording] ... believing?

WITNESS:   Therefore I personally took a decision that I wasn't accepting the situation as it was, therefore I have to leave home.  I left them as ANC people and I became an IFP member.

MR MACADAM: And in 1986, were you at a certain stage at the Prince Mshiyeni Hospital in Umlazi, one of the suburbs of Durban?

WITNESS:   Yes, at Prince Mshiyeni.

MR MACADAM: What were you doing there?

WITNESS:   That's where leaders of IFP used to meet.  They were given instruction to come to Durban to organise the union by the name of UWUSA.  So they were staying at Prince Mshiyeni Hospital.  From there they will go out and visit factories around Durban with the aim of encouraging IFP members, those who were affiliated to other unions which were working together with the ANC, encouraging them to resign from those ANC aligned(?) unions to join a union which is aligned to IFP.

MR MACADAM: /Did

MR MACADAM: 2A Did you at that stage hold any formal position within the Inkatha Freedom Party, or not?

WITNESS:   No, I wasn't anything.

MR MACADAM: Now while you were at the hospital in 1986, were any specific requests made to you which were beyond the activities which you have now described to us?

WITNESS:   I will say that during the time when we're there, Silford Bhengu came.  He was also a member during the days of Umkhonto Wesizwe.  However this time he was working as a full member of IFP, the Central Committee.  And another man by the name of Mncwango, he was also a full member of the IFP Central Committee.  These are the people who came to ask me to tell me that there is an arrangement which is being undertaken by the IFP and the they also explained to me that the IFP have reached a point where it has to form its own military wing and this military wing is going to work the very same way as the ANC works within the community.  Therefore they have taken a decision that a person who can help him, it's me.  So I had to ask them some few questions relating to some other matters and I agreed that I will do the work that they were asking me to do.

MR MACADAM: Do you know if any ... [break in recording] ... approached you specifically?

WITNESS:  If I guess, I will say they knew that I have full knowledge regarding to military training and other things, therefore they needed my help in that regard, just to oversee whether the training that they needed, it's the necessary training.    First I wanted to find out who were going to undergo the training.  What I heard at that time was that it was Mossad from Israel.    However, because the Government of South

MR MACADAM: /Africa

MR MACADAM: 2A Africa didn't permit that people should go out of the country to be trained outside, they said their government was prepared to do the training.  However, that had to be kept a secret.  They then took me to Mr M Z Khumalo at Ulundi, this is the man who went the two men who came to me.  In front of those, in the presence of these two men, he repeated what he told me at Prince Mshiyeni Hospital.  I have already agreed to the two men.  I also agreed to him.

MR MACADAM: And what transpired further?