Human Rights Violation Hearings — Kimberley — 1996-06-10

DR BORAINE: Father Lapsley I would like to take it a little further, your comments about forgiveness and restorative justice.  You will know better that most that the hole question of amnesty is - is very controversial.   
You will also know that the amnesty provisions in South Africa are unique and very different and much more demanding that any other that I certainly know of in the world, but never the less.  There is provision made for amnesty under certain circumstances.  Now just to clarify my own mind - make sure that I understand what you're saying.
 If - so far we don't know who did this despicable thing to you.  We can guess or we can have some very good idea about an organisation - the groupings - the authorities but personally who typed the letter, who sealed it and who made it and so on.
 If any of those people and it's unlike that we're ever find out - that's the hard thing to accept but if any of those came and applied for amnesty and made full disclosure, they would receive amnesty in terms of the act.  How do you see this, how do you feel about this because feeling level probably the strongest.  Is that - does that meet with your restorative justice or is there something beyond that?

FATHER LAPSLEY: Well, you see my view has always been that it would be - have been much more desirable for there to be trials and then amnesty.  I mean I was present when the Bishop of the church in the new South African spoke about the St James Massacre and I was fascinated when he said about how his son went to the prison to say on behalf of the congregation we forgive you.  He was very quick to say - but I didn't say that he should be released.  And that - that fascinated me because in fact that was a concept of forgiveness linked to justice.
 But my few has been and I have been from the beginning in support of the Truth Commission.  I believe that we are sacrificing a degree of justice which I think extremely painful to the nation for the sake of the greater good and the greater good as a saw it was if we hadn't had amnesty we  were going to have civil war that was going to consume us all.  
And that is the contexts in which I think I support my leaders in the insistence of amnesty but it remains very painful but the Arch Bishop had been a good teacher and I believe in very old fashion concepts of forgiveness.  And it seems to me that in the Christian contexts we'll give this as a package deal and we often in South Africa make it something  [indistinct] cheep and easy.
 It seems to me the Christian understanding of forgiveness - it's about confession, it's about amendment of life, it's about remorse, it's about reparation.  It's a whole - whole package, now yes I would may get amnesty but that doesn't deal with the package, that's legal thing and we know that.  And I think one of the first things that the Arch Bishop said in the beginning of this Commission was that end of Tape 2, side A ... direct my life in such a way.  I'd say with God's help that I'm not consumed by that.  
You know, I realised equally soon after I was bombed that if I spend my life pursuing those who did it to me, they would eat me up.   Again that would consume me and I don't want to consumed, but that there is unfinished business.  That is true of me so I think it is helpful for it to be linked.  But if I can  just make one other point that I had forgotten to make that I wanted to make and that really relates to reparation.  
You know  because I'm a member of a religious order and a priest of the church in 20, 30, 40 years time if I have problems of a medical or physiological or a psychiatric character, there's a fair chance I would get help but I'm not sure that that may be true of some of my fellow South Africans.  
 And I'm very concerned and the recommendations that are made that it takes account of very long term needs.  I can expect - I've had a whole serious of operations and in some ways although with major disability I'm in very good health.  But I can imagine that in 20, 30 years time some of the effects of the bomb will actually come to and head a knew ways and I would be very concerned it people who don't have anything to say - cause you say to the people now do you want anything and they say no well we need this or that.  
But in 20, 30, 40 years time there's got be a quietly, that we as a society need to take care.  Just as there are people who're having a quite psychiatric problems around the world because of the second world war now, who have never had them before and I think we need to learn that and I hope the reparations recommendations will  - will institute those kind and structures for those who say no we're fine but we may not be fine further down the track.
 And I'm more concerned about those who will not have the kind of access - perhaps as a professional person  or as a priest or religious that I may have.

CHAIRPERSON: Glenda?

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Father Mike I was very - I was very moved when you talked about your understanding at the time of your bombing.  About what it must have meant for the mother of Christ to witness the crucifixion and in a sense I was realising that you were also making reference to your own family.    
You've talked about what that has meant for you, can you give us an idea of what the impact of the bombing has been on your sisters and on your mother?

FATHER LAPSLEY: No, I mean I can't , I think it's a valid question, the - the - I would - can I put it this way.  I see myself as belonging to a number of families.  My natural family with my parents - my father is late, and my brothers and sisters - a family of a religious order - the Society of the Sacred Mission - a family of the church for very many years the family of the ANC having lived also in Zimbabwe and Lesotho - the family of both those nations.  
 When I was bombed all those families loved me in a very - in a very extraordinary way.  The - and that was what enabled me - I mean the doctors said it would take 18 months to 2 years before I was well again and 7 months later I returned and I was fine and I think  that is because of all those families and the roles through their prayers, their love, their support.  Religious people - people who are not religious at all prayed.  Two of my sisters came to see me in hospital.
 The point that I'm making when I say that I can't is that it is difficult to know the - and I think sometimes in a strange kind of way and I think I've seen this watching this process that for the families - the mothers, the spouses, the friends in some ways it's harder that for the survivors and I think that when we talk about the concepts of forgiveness I think it's much easier for the survivor that for the relative of the one who has died.  
And I think even than I lived the pain that others go through in their helplessness in a way is often much greater and so yes I was supported very profoundly and deeply by all those families.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Thank you Father.