Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-25

CHAIRPERSON: We have had Exhibit 1, which is a sort of maroon coloured, darkish dress with a floral pattern on the bottom part and a type of horizontal or stripes, diagonal stripes on the top; and then there was another dress which was black, it is essentially dark in colour and it had a type of a top thing; and then there was the third one which was a sort of bluish colour dress.  Does anybody want the dresses to be seen here, or do we, I don't think anyone disputes that the three dresses that you looked at, were the three that have been placed before this Committee, and are entered into the record as exhibits.

MS THABETHE: In your measuring of the dresses, exactly what you do, what were your findings?  Can you enumerate that?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Well, in pattern making really is what identifies the size of a garment.  There are certain measurements that one takes that are crucial to the construction.
	The most important being the bust measurement, the waist measurement and then the measurements from the shoulder to the waist and the waist to the hem.  The waist to the hem, giving a sort of rough guide, but obviously due to fashion and - women's length of dresses can vary, so that is a little bit harder I think to pin point the exact height of a person.
	That is really, I worked on those four major measurements.  I also looked at the size of the belt that came with the dress that, I will call it the exhumed dress, and had to look, was particularly looking at whether that belt belonged to the dress and how that affected the proportions as well.

MS THABETHE: Okay.  There is ...

CHAIRPERSON: We have been handed ...

MS FICK-JORDAAN: A page of measurements?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: Can I at this stage ask that it be marked as an exhibit?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Is this your measurements?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: That is my handwriting and my measurements that I took this morning.

CHAIRPERSON: That will be Exhibit S.

MS THABETHE: Starting at the bottom of each dress, I realise that the bust is 110 cm, what does that mean?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Well, that obviously means that as far as we can ascertain, I would like to point out that all three dresses in fact, were not tight-fitting dresses, they were not, the styling which would clearly have shown if it was a very tight fitting dress, it would have been darted and there would not have been an elasticised waist.  In this instance, all three the dresses have got elasticised waists and were styled accordingly which makes it very difficult, although the measurement we have given is of the actual garment size, you cannot pin-point exactly what the waist measurement in fact would have been, because of it is not darted, there is a variable.

MS THABETHE: The bust?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Okay, the bust measurement, according to all three, were the same measurement.  The waist measurement as you can see, there was a 2cm discrepancy, which as I say could mean the exhumed dress for instance, the elastic had perished.  It could also, 2cm on proportions like this, is very marginal.  The other thing, the across bust measure which is really from the shoulders to the waist, pointed out to me that the person didn't have a very long torso, in fact, what we call short-waisted.
	That measurement was also not dramatically different.  The styling of these dresses are that they are a sort of blouson style, which was kind of fashionable in the 1970's and the 1980's.  It meant that that could vary again.

CHAIRPERSON: So these actual figures that you have, I am just looking at the shoulders ...

MS FICK-JORDAAN: The actual garment ...

CHAIRPERSON: Shoulder to waist, the one is 46, the one is 42 and one is 44?  What is your comment on those differences?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: My comment on that is really that that has more to do with the styling.  As I said because of the elasticised waist in each of those garments, it meant that it was designed as a sort of blouson style, it could either be, I mean I particularly have a long body, so I know that when I buy off the peg clothes, that the waists are always too high for me.
	There is a lot of variation in that.  With clothing, in the factories, and I have worked in the industry as well, sizing as such is so variable, it depends on the styling.  From one label to the other, it could change.  It is very difficult, that is why people try their clothes on normally before they buy.

MS THABETHE: Okay.  What can you say about the waist of this person, or the waist from looking at the dress?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Well, looking at, I think what was really, what was incredible is that there is such a little variance in the waist measure, the actual waist measure on the dresses, I mean there is a 2cm difference, and the fact that they are elasticised, which also in a way, when you look at the belt measurement of 89, in my opinion the 89 is not a true reflection, we tried to pull the belt, it is warped a lot and you cannot actually flatten it to get the exact size.  There could be shrinkage and with the warpage, you are losing some.  I think there you could add on 2cm or 3cm.  You cannot pin-point that belt accurately.  It is completely warped, which also in terms of dresses ...

MS THABETHE: Sorry, I just wanted you to give more clarity on the warped, the warped up of the belt, what would cause a belt to be warped up and eventually shrink?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Well, it depends of course on the material that it is made, in this particular instance it is a man-made synthetic material, which most materials like that, anything from heat to water to moisture can affect it.  The belt, when you look at it, obviously had come straight and it is not straight, it is now warped.

CHAIRPERSON: I actually commented on that, I think, when I was holding it, that - I didn't use the word warped, but it was buckled, and it wasn't straight.

MS FICK-JORDAAN: It is not straight.  I tried to straighten it, but I was afraid because it is very brittle  and it is actually breaking.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Just one question, while it is still in my mind, Mrs Fick-Jordaan.
	I see here and you have also noted it at the bottom, that all the waists were elasticised.   What would be, and that they were dresses, would you wear a belt as well with that sort of dress?  Was there ...

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I think sir, the style of clothing, as I mentioned, was actually known, was called blouson style.  I think with blouson style, it is very much the idea that you would pull in the waist because it is a loose fitting, it is not a tight dress.  It is styled like that.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.  Looking at the dresses that you measured, what would you say was the size of the person who wore those dresses?

CHAIRPERSON: I think the first question is, would those dresses be able to be worn by one person?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Yes, I have no doubt about that.  The descriptions, as I said, even the waist to hem measurement, if you start looking at four, five centimetres, it is not a dramatic difference, even on the length, on the height of a person.  If it a sort of below the knee and a little bit down, and it is not major.  I think one of the crucial things is the waist measure, the actual waist measure which is more or less the same, and the bust measure, I think those are the two really important measurements in clothing, and that is what would, you know would really make me thing that definitely this is, and the fact that the styling of the clothes.
	I mean people that generally are maybe a little bit overweight or that, prefer styles like this, with the elasticised waist, because it is more comfortable like that.  The fact that all three are elasticised is quite crucial.

MS THABETHE: Were there any alterations on the three dresses that you had a look at?