Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-06

CHAIRPERSON: I think, Mr Berger, perhaps the word should be attacking because killing is a process, you may attack a person and he may not ...[inaudible] but he might die later.  What you're being asked here is that apart from the two persons, Damara Tjonjo and Themba Mabode that you say you saw attacking people, you did not see any other person from your group who is at least alive attacking people in Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As I explained, it was not easy for me to see other people from my group.  I am mentioning people who were close to me not because I'm only mentioning these people because they are deceased.
ADV. SIGODI: Through you, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Mthembu, are you afraid to speak whatever you want to speak or do you fear mentioning any person who might be still alive whom you saw attacking?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I am not afraid of anyone.  I am free to speak.
ADV. SIGODI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, can you name anybody in your group who was there that night but you did not actually see carrying out an attack?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I can say that people like Buthelezi and somebody like Khanyile and Umsani were present when we went to attack.

MR BERGER: The third name that you mentioned was who?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Umsani.

MR BERGER: The Buthelezi that you're talking about is that Qambelani Buthelezi?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is so.

MR BERGER: The Khanyile that you're talking about is that Vincent Khanyile?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is so.

MR BERGER: Umsani, who is Umsani, is he an applicant?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, he is not present here.

MR BERGER: What are his full names?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Umsani.  I do not know his full names, I only know his surname.

MR BERGER: Was he an accused at the trial?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: And where is he now?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: He is not in custody.

MR BERGER: Where is he now?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would not know where he is at the present time because I am in prison.  It is very difficult for me to actually specify where he is.

MR BERGER: Mr Themba Mabode, how was he armed?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: If I remember correctly, I think he had a gun.

MR BERGER: And Mr Tjonjo, how was he armed?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: He also had a gun.

MR BERGER: And both of them you witnessed shooting at people?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I did not actually see them shooting at people but it could be that did shoot at them but I cannot say that I specifically saw them do it.

MR BERGER: You never saw either of them shooting at anybody?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No.

MR BERGER: Were they both armed with AK47's?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I think Mr Tjonjo had an AK47, Themba had a smaller gun.

MR BERGER: Did either of them have any other weapons, spears, pangas, knopkierries?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I think they did not have traditional weapons.

MR BERGER: So what did they do in your presence which told you that they were attacking people?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As far as I can tell they were shooting at the people that they - at the people that they met but I cannot account for every minute.

MR BERGER: You never saw them shooting, how do you know they were shooting?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I say that because they had guns.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, are you assuming that because they had firearms they must have used these arms?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that's what I mean.

MR BERGER: How was Mr Umsani armed?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't know what gun he had.

MR BERGER: You don't know what type of gun he had?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is so.

MR BERGER: Was it a small gun or a large gun?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I cannot say whether he had a gun or a traditional weapon.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, we would be adjourning at about one o'clock so when it comes to a convenient point to interrupt your cross-examination, would you indicate so that we can take the adjournment?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, it would be convenient now because I was going to start something new.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will take the lunch adjournment and we will return at two o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, may I remind you that you are still under oath?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: (s.u.o.)

MR BERGER: (Continues)
	Thank you Chairperson, before I continue with the cross-examination can I just bring it to the attention of the Committee that there are a number of other people who have come forward now to say that they too require representation and we've made it clear that it's only people who were injured or whose family members that were killed will be entitled to be represented if we understand the position correctly.  People whose houses were damaged are not entitled to be represented for the purposes of this hearing, is that correct Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, they are victims as well because the incidents involve not only murders, it also involved attempted murder and malicious injury to properties I understand are the position so that they will be entitled to legal representation.

MR BERGER: Even those people whose homes were damaged but did not suffer any personal injury or death?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes indeed, they are victims nevertheless to the extend that they suffered damage to their properties.

MR BERGER: Well in that case then Chairperson there are many, many more families who then require representations.  If it pleases the Committee, we would be prepared to represent them as long as they all lodged their names with Ms Cambanis then we can take it further from there?

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Mr Berger informs the Committee that then there will be persons who suffered damages to their properties as a result of the incidents that occurred in Boipatong.  These persons are indeed victims and to the extend that then they wanted to be legally represented, they must contact Ms Cambanis or Mr Berger so as to be represented.
Yes Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Mthembu, I'm going to try again to get clarity on the street where you say you attacked people.  Now, you will recall that before lunch you said that it was somewhere near Umsimvuvu Street, you recall that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes I do recall that.

MR BERGER: I don't know how well you know Boipatong, do you know the streets well?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I can explain that I do not know Boipatong very well because I was not a resident there and I was not a resident here, I was just working here at the Vaal Triangle.

MR BERGER: Or you had no friends or family in Boipatong, you never visited the area, you had no need to go into Boipatong, is that right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: How then do you know the name Umsimvuvu Street?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: The street names are written, for example I would see the names of the street on my way to the taxis.

MR BERGER: Alright now, you would know then, I presume, that Umsimvuvu Street cuts the township into half as it proceeds towards Slovo Park?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't know about that.

MR BERGER: If you're coming along - do you know where Slovo Park is?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, I don't know.

MR BERGER: Have you ever heard about Slovo Park?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I did here about Slovo Park and they did mention the name in court.

MR BERGER: Have you ever been to Slovo Park?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, I don't recall going to Slovo Park because I could not go to a place that I did not know.

MR BERGER: You don't know about an informal settlement on the Eastern side of Boipatong?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the name of that?

MR BERGER: It's Slovo Park, Chairperson, but I'm trying to just ask ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: But he said that he heard about that when he was in court.