Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: I am not sure whether I had been in my officeor what the circumstances might have been.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, with regard to this particular incident,you've heard the testimony of Captain Hechter and W/O Van Vuurenwith regard to their activities, the interrogation and the processwhich they followed.   Would you have considered that beyond thenormal circumstances or would you have considered these actionsas normal activities to act in that manner and then report backto you?

ANSWER: This would have been normal procedure.

<UNKNOWN>: Would you have required of them in the middleof
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the process of interrogation of these activists in which one interrogationthen followed the other, would you have required them to reportback to you in the middle of the process?

ANSWER: Were I available they would have reported tome.

<UNKNOWN>: Can you remember whether they reported to you?

ANSWER: No I cannot remember.

<UNKNOWN>: You have given testimony that you cannot rememberwhether you were available.

ANSWER: No, that is the case.

JUDGE WILSON: : If you were not there, there would be someoneelse occupying the command position would there not?

ANSWER: My second-in-command would have been available,Colonel Ras, I do not know whether they discussed this with him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Trevits dealt with only high profile activistsand these would have been activists who were considered by Trevitsas a political threat to the government of the day isn't it?  Do you want me to repeat my question?

ANSWER: Please.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Trevits only dealt with high profile activists,and these would have been activists considered by Trevits to bea political threat to the government of the day?

ANSWER: That is the case.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other questions under re-examination?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier Cronje you were also asked with regardto innocent persons or rather persons who might have also havebeen affected in the course of an operation, a
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particular operation, could you explain to the Committee if, duringthe course of an operation, what the approach would have been.  I am thinking particularly with regard to the Nyanda event,we will still get to the Nyanda incident, but the modus operandiwith regard to persons in the course of your operations couldyou expand on this somewhat?   Brigadier, the question that wasasked to you had been with regard to family members in a house,what would have happened to family members in a house in the courseof an operation, you then said that the target would not havebeen to affect family members in a house?   Then particularlywith regard to the Nyanda incident, without giving testimony aboutthat particular incident could you not however sketch the broadapproach how you acted towards people during the course of anoperation?

ANSWER: If it was at all possible we would have attemptednot to cause harm to women and children.   We attempted to determineprior to an action whether there were family members, childrenin the house then we would not have continued with the operation.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, would there have been unavoidableincidents where people by accident and in a way in which you couldnot prevent would have come under fire?

ANSWER: That is possible.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

JUDGE WILSON: : One last point arising from that, you would,you say, take all possible attempts not to cause harm and to ascertainif there were other people in a house?

ANSWER: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.
WITNESS IS EXCUSED
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MR MPSHE 552 ADDRESS

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman I have received a message hereabout, concerning my colleague Advocate Botha.   May I be affordedjust some small opportunity to talk to somebody to sort out thingsso that we know what we are about to do?

CHAIRPERSON: We will just adjourn for a very short while.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Very short while.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Chairman we areindebted to the Chair and the Committee for the short adjournment.  Mr Chairman I contacted Mr Theuns Botha who told me that heis not briefed in this matter and that is why he is not here.  He advised me to contact the firm of attorneys who had initiallycontacted him, that is the firm
Kamber, De Beer & Goosen and I contacted this firm by telephoneand I spoke to the secretary, Ms Ria Pretorius, who told me thatthe person in charge of this matter is a Mr Goosen Jnr of thesame firm.   Mr Goosen Jnr is not available, he's writing examinationsand she said to me there's no (indistinct) present in the firmat the moment.  I explained to her what is happening and I askedher pertinently I said are you still representing the victims,she said as far as I know we are still representing them.  I saidcan I convey this to the Committee members that your firm is stillrepresenting, she said yes you can convey that.    Now that iswhere we stop Mr Chairman I will leave this to the decision ofthe Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: I regard that as shabby treatment of everybodythat is involved in this hearing, if that firm had difficultiesit could have come here and placed their difficulties on the recordand asked to be excused if they could not attend to this matter.  I have no comments to
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make as far as counsel himself is concerned, obviously whetherhe was briefed or not is a matter for the attorneys to decide.  In the circumstances, are the members of the family presentMr Mpshe and have you spoken to them?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman the members of the family are present,I haven't spoken to them because I thought that they were representedall the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe on previous occasions you have fulfilledthe functions, after consultation with dependents and relativesand adduced evidence on their behalf if they were unable to doso.   It does seem that we may have to resort to that and youmust do the best you can, so now can we then commence with theleading of the evidence which might take us perhaps at least untilthe adjournment and then you can take time to consult with thewitnesses and perhaps prepare yourself to lead evidence on theirbehalf when the need arises.   You may even have to consult themafter the first witness has given evidence but then you wouldexercise your experience and judgment in the matter, Mr Mpshe.  You will not be prevented from calling any witness after youhave received instructions and it becomes necessary to put questionsto somebody.   I'd rather that we proceed on that basis insteadof waiting for attorneys to turn up and so on.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We are indebted to you if you can do that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : That I can do Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Thank you Mr Chairman.   I call BrigadierCronje back.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mpshe you've given notice I see six,seven
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MR MPSHE 554 ADDRESS
people in this matter round about, but did you give notice tothe person who supplied bond, Joe Verster?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman I don't have my copy with me butI can check on that later.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think we can attend to that matter ata later stage, let us proceed with the evidence.

UNKNOWN: Have you received any returns of service?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, as Iindicated yesterday that the forms are out, I have not receivedany returns.   This morning at 6:15 I telephoned Adv Andrew Steenkampto find out what has he done so far and that I need returns, andhe said they are still busy but there are others that they haveserved and he will meet me here this morning.   He has not arrived.  (End of side 1)..
JAN HATTINGH CRONJE (suo)
EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS