Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-19

MR MKHIZE: I am not afraid of anything.  I do not fear anything, I would say if there were policemen involved.  I don't really understand what I would be fearing.

MR BERGER: You do know that you can be put into a witness protection programme if you tell the truth, if you fear for your life?  You know that?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat.

MR BERGER: You can be put into a witness protection programme if you are fearing for your life, you know that?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not know that.  With regards to what you are discussing here, there is nothing that I am afraid of.  I would not fear to divulge that the police were present if they were.

MR BERGER: Are you not afraid of Prince Vanana Zulu?

MR MKHIZE: No.  Would I be afraid that maybe he would assault me?

MR BERGER: While we are on the subject of Prince Vanana Zulu, is it not correct that he was in fact part of the attack, that he was in Boipatong during the massacre?

MR MKHIZE: I have already told you that he was absent.

MR BERGER: What do you know about women who were raped during the massacre?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know anything about that.

MR BERGER: During the criminal trial, Lucky Stikenawu, Sonny Michael Mkwanazi, was asked the following question at page 3499 - he was asked, Gobi also said that on the 18th of June, that would have been the day after the massacre, you had a conversation with him and you told him that the previous night you had raped somebody in Boipatong.  Do you remember that evidence at the criminal trial?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not remember.

MR BERGER: That Lucky had said to someone who gave evidence for the State, that he had raped somebody in Boipatong, you don't remember that?

MR MKHIZE: I do not remember that.

MR BERGER: Did any of your men brag after the massacre that they had raped women in Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not remember anyone doing that.  I did not get to hear of it.

MR BERGER: Would it surprise you, does it surprise you that women were allegedly raped in Boipatong during the massacre?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, it would surprise me.

MR BERGER: Did you give instructions that women should not be raped?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not.  It was not something that would happen, if you go out to attack, you would also engage in raping women.

MR BERGER: Did you give instructions that there should be no looting?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not.

MR BERGER: Is that also unusual?

MR MKHIZE: Normally when you are engaged in fighting, there is no time to be also engaged in looting.

MR BERGER: So did it surprise you to learn that there was large scale looting during the massacre?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, it did surprise me when I heard that some people's property had been looted.

MR BERGER: Did you give any instructions that women and children and old people should not be harmed during the attack?

MR MKHIZE: Even though there was no direct instruction to that effect, the people that we had actually targeted were SDU members, who I suppose were not children and were not elderly people.

MR BERGER: Did you give any instructions that no property should be damaged during the attack?

MR MKHIZE: We did not discuss property, we did not discuss people's property when we were actually discussing the attack.

MR BERGER: You say it surprised you that people plundered and looted property during the attack, that surprised you, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is what I said.

MR BERGER: Why do you say in your statement, on page 77 at the bottom, that you gave the instruction to plunder?

MR MKHIZE: This must have been a mistake.

MR BERGER: Oh no, let me read to you what you said in your statement.  An instruction was given by me, to break the windows of the houses, and to loot and plunder.
	You confirmed this statement this morning.

MR MKHIZE: I do not have knowledge thereof, I did not instruct anybody to break windows.

MR BERGER: Just as you didn't instruct anybody to rape and just as you did not instruct anybody to kill women and children and old people, just the same?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I didn't do it.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that anyone and anything, no matter how old, how young, anyone was a target in Boipatong?  Wasn't that the order when the attack began?

MR MKHIZE: No, that was not the instruction.  The people that we targeted in Boipatong, were SDU's.  I do not dispute that other people were also injured, because as it happened, it was dark and we could not see clearly who was who.

MR BERGER: You don't dispute that there were IFP members living in Boipatong, who were injured or killed during the attack?  You don't dispute that?

MR MKHIZE: I do dispute that.  There was no IFP member residing in Boipatong at that time, because people had been killed and some of them had even fled the area, they had actually fled to kwaMadala hostel.
	I don't believe that there was any IFP member living in the area at the time.

MR BERGER: Themba Khoza the leader of the IFP in the Transvaal said both during the criminal trial, and in press statements immediately after the attack, that there were IFP members and supporters living in Boipatong and it was ludicrous to think that the IFP could be responsible for an attack on their own people.
	Was Mr Khoza not telling the truth when he said that there were IFP members living in Boipatong and sympathizers?

MR MKHIZE: I would not be able to dispute that, that must have been his knowledge, but as far as I know, there were no IFP people living in Boipatong at that time.
	He must have been referring to something that he knew.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct Mr Mkhize, that there was no way in which you and the other attackers could say as you rampaged through Boipatong and Slovo Park, could say whether that particular person was a member of the ANC, a sympathiser of the ANC, a member of the IFP, a member of the SDU, you just didn't know.  You went through the township, killing everyone and anyone who didn't have a red or white band around their forehead, isn't that in reality what happened?

MR MKHIZE: What I am saying is that there was no IFP member living in Boipatong at that time.  What I did mention also, was that there was no control at that time, when the attack took place.

MR BERGER: And that is because an order was given to kill everyone and anyone in Boipatong, in fact to destroy the entire township, isn't that what the order was?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know how many times do I have to repeat myself.

MR BERGER: Well, when you got into Boipatong, you fired you say in your statement, at a Self Defence Unit near the shops.  Am I right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Did they fire back at you?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And then did you run after them as they ran away?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, we did chase after them, but we could not catch up with them.

MR BERGER: Where did they run to?

MR MKHIZE: Towards Slovo Park.

MR BERGER: So then why did you and your men start destroying houses and going into houses in Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: I said I do not know about that, because that happened because people were out of control, you could no longer control them.

MR BERGER: But you too, you also went through the township?  You were moving through the township and you were firing as you moved through the township, isn't that right?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat the question.

MR BERGER: You yourself, were moving through Boipatong and you were firing as you were going along.  Were you also out of control?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: At page 78 you say, a third of the way down, you said it was dark and we were many.  We moved through the residential area and there was sporadic gunfire.   You yourself were going through, is that right, shooting as you went?

MR MKHIZE: I said I actually fired when I saw people near the shop, but I did not shoot at random in the streets.

MR BERGER: So you only fired at the shops, is that all?