Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

MR NTSEBEZA: It seems that this message, top secret message to the State Security Council, was already anticipated a victory by the Witdoeke.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Well this is what it implies.

MR NTSEBEZA: And would you agree with me that it seems also to be seeking funds from the government, from the State, or the State Security Council of R3 000 so that that victory should be celebrated in style?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: By the slaughter of an ox ...(intervention)

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Or whatever.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes, it says so in so many words, "slaughter of cattle", "in the form of the slaughter of cattle".

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now the question ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ramashala wants to ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: Now the question that I want to put to you, given what we now know, it may be contested evidence,  that  there were allegations that the police and the army and the security forces did nothing to prevent the Witdoeke from  these attacks, given also there are allegations that the army and the police actually were helping the Witdoeke in  their attacks which we now know started on the 9th, don't you find this top secret message to the State Security Council couched in these terms very prophetic?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I am reading the document for the first  time, I received it yesterday, I never saw this document before, any person reading this document who is not an informed person of what was going on, would translate or look at it as if they were looking for funds to have some sort of celebration, yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: Was it in the nature  or  in the general conduct  of the State Security Council to make funds available to a group of people like the Witdoeke?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Sir, I wouldn't know.  I was not at that level, I was not in a position to decide or apply for such funds.

MR NTSEBEZA: Don't you find the document curious to say the least?  Don't you find it curious given the circumstances at that particular time?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I was surprised to see such a document.  I am surprised to see such a document.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ramashala.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Sir, all over the country and internationally this conflict was branded as Black-on-Black violence.  This document, among others, places the hand of the State right square in the middle of it.  Yesterday when  you saw this document for the first time describe to me the sense of emotion when you saw this document for the first time.  Assuming, as I think you are, a reasonable person.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I looked at this document and I studied this document for a long hard time, and I tried to put myself - you see it's difficult because it's a document - it's first of all a top secret document and it would not have been sent if it was not top secret obviously it was classified as such, given the fact that it was given to the State Security Council put a very high priority on this document.  Why there would have been a celebration for what the reason is specifically, apart from the fact that they tried to say it was for the stayaway of - that they were going to talk to people, I wouldn't know.  Perhaps one  could get more answers in their minutes where they would have decided before they sent such a document.
 How I felt, I felt that something was going on without me knowing, obviously because I wasn't at that level. It was my area within the JMC, S-JMC and that's all I can say.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: What exactly do you think was going on?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Well according  to this document they were going to plan some sort of celebration for a victory, which is said in the document, and I thought it was a communication exercise to gain the support of people.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Now it is not a communication exercise to support people, it is specific, it is a specific celebration anticipating victory, it says here, it is not an exercise, this is an appeal for funds which would be expended in celebration, it says right here.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Madam.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: In that context Sir, I am not going to ask you for your opinion but I am going to say is it correct for me to assume that there was complicity which puts the State right in the middle of this?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: The question that I asked myself is was this amount approved or not, I wouldn't know.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Sir, that's irrelevant, that is irrelevant.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Oh alright, alright.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: The issue is there was a request.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: There was a request for money.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Dated 9th.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: In anticipation of a victory.  We have already talked about the fact that the Police, Military did nothing to stop the conflict, and here is this document that in fact confirms complicity, a request for funds to celebrate the victory, the annihilation of the satellites including KTC.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: But this document does not say so.  This document says that the victory whatever, it does not say why there was a victory, but they said the situation around the stayaway actions on the 16th of June.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: But it's reasonable to infer, to make that inference.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I am not making that assumption Madam.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Well we are saying so. It is reasonable to make that inference ...(intervention)

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: You can say so, but I am not making that assumption Madam.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Sir, I think it is of interest to me that you are defending a document of which you knew nothing, that is of interest to me.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Ladies and Gentlemen.  Quiet please.  Thank you very much for your cooperation.  We really appreciate your coming to assist the Commission in whatever way you have done.
 I think that as a matter of courtesy to you Sir we just wish to inform you that our media liaison person, Christelle Terblanche, usually passes on the documents, all documents presented at hearings including these secret documents, she presents them to the media, so they are now public knowledge, so they may be used in the media, everything that goes on here may be used. Thank you.  I am just mentioning that as a matter of courtesy to you.
 Thank you.