Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-29

ADV JANSEN: To put it very specifically, there was no rule for example if it was something not so important, for example theft of a vehicle, but when it had to do with the elimination of a person, it should be cleared with the Head of Security?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: There were no hard and fast rules.

ADV JANSEN: There was a very big grey area if I could put it in that way, on precisely which level an operation had to be cleared?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

ADV JANSEN: It is something where you in the Security Police used your own discretion?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is like that.

ADV JANSEN: And junior members of the Security Police was not able to evaluate precisely where that line was drawn?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That was a possibility, yes.  That is an acceptable point of view.

ADV JANSEN: But you would not expect it from a person in Mr Ras' situation, that he had to query you whether you held the approval on your level or whether you had cleared it with the Commissioner of with the Head of the Security Police.  You would not expect it from him to ask this type of questions?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I would not expect it from him.

ADV JANSEN: All that was expected of such a person was to know that this instruction came from the top structure?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

ADV JANSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

MR KEMP: Mr Chairman, Kemp on behalf of the applicants Kok and Du Toit, one aspect.  It arises from the question put by the Commission members.  You were asked what you would have done if somebody did not carry out an instruction and you said that you were speculating.
	Is it correct to say that after 20 years of service as a Security Policeman, you never experienced a situation with circumstances like this, where they refused to carry out an instruction?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: If I understand you correctly, you are referring to an instruction I gave?

MR KEMP: That is correct.

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I can't think of any such a situation.

MR KEMP: And then the last aspect, is it not like that General, that within the Security Forces it was prestige, regarded as prestigious to become a member of the Security Police?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR KEMP: I thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

MR KEMP: .

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman, Ford on behalf of the families of two of the victims.   Mr Van Rensburg, you will understand I am sure, that it is of great importance to families of the victims that they should understand why their husbands, why their fathers were murdered?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I understand.

UNKNOWN: And if they are to understand it fully, there must of course be a complete disclosure of all the relevant facts and a disclosure of all the names of those involved in the decision which led to the murder of their kid, would you agree with that?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I agree.

UNKNOWN: Now, we are to understand your evidence before this Commission today, you admit readily to being involved in the execution of four members of, or four persons, in Port Elizabeth, is that right?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Now, I wasn't here, but I understand from the reports in the media, that last week you admitted readily also to having been involved in the execution of two young men in the Eastern Cape, is that right?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Now, you start off your application for indemnity Mr Van Rensburg, by telling this Commission that you grew up in a normal conservative South African home.  My parents supported the National Party and held the leaders of that party in high regard.  Our whole family was members of the Dutch Reformed Church.
	Am I right, Mr Van Rensburg, that the impression which you seek to create, was that you were just a normal God fearing Afrikaans boy?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is not correct, that is not what I am saying here.

UNKNOWN: What precisely are you saying then Mr Van Rensburg?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Precisely what is written here.  My parents were supporters of the National Party, my whole family was members of the Dutch Reformed Church.

UNKNOWN: Well, then let's take it step by step.  Were you a God fearing Afrikaans boy, Mr Van Rensburg?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I believed in the way I was educated in my parents' home and in the church, I believed in God and that I should be obedient to that God, and to believe in Him.

UNKNOWN: I see.  In order that there should be some understanding by those who have lost their loved ones, can you tell this Commission what changes such a person into an executioner, a murderer?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: The onslaught during this time against the Republic of South Africa or against the State, the government of the day, and that in which I believed in my culture and I believed with my whole heart, that if a communist black government would take over the country in a violent way, there would be a time of anarchy and I could not accept or believe that such a black nationalism and white people would be able to live together.
	And I believed the government of the day, and that what they were saying, that I believed in that and I did everything in my power to protect those interests.

UNKNOWN: I see, Mr Van Rensburg, you are surely not suggesting that through your upbringing, through your involvement in the Afrikaner community, through your involvement with the Afrikaner church, that it was ever suggested to you that execution, murder, was an acceptable practice, the ends would justify the means or the means would justify the end, either way?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, never ever.  I never expected that the church would tell me to kill people.

UNKNOWN: Well, what was the revelation which came to you somewhere along your career Mr Van Rensburg, which enabled you to take unto yourself the right to kill people?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I think I have already answered that question, but I want to add.  According to my perception, this unlawful attacks by the liberation organisations, during which innocent people were killed, this led to the perception that you can't just fold your hands, you had to do something to fight against this people.

UNKNOWN: Would you agree with me Mr Van Rensburg, that the assumption of the right to kill your fellow man, is something which shouldn't come out of perceptions, it would more likely come out of direct orders?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.  I don't understand exactly what you are saying.

UNKNOWN: What I am asking Mr Van Rensburg is, did you decide that you had the right to kill and to order the killing of your fellow man because of your perceptions, or because somebody told you somewhere along the line, you have the right to do it?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: My convictions to combat this revolutionary onslaught and together with this, statements which were made by certain politicians, pressure from head office for results.

UNKNOWN: You were a policeman, you were a policeman for many years, your duty was to maintain law and order, is that right?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: To in fact, bring criminals to justice, not to yourself participate in criminal activities?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And through these perceptions of yours, you were able to make the step from maintaining law and order to criminal activity, just through these perceptions?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: As I have already said, during that time, during those circumstances, I believed that this was the correct way to combat this total onslaught.

UNKNOWN: Were you ever a member of Koevoet Mr Van Rensburg?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, Mr Chairman.