Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-04

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Here part of the plan was that he was a passenger who asked a lift.  At times we do manage to escape roadblocks based on that information.  If you have got something that incriminates you in the process, you are closing all the chances of manoeuvring out of the situation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now you had a Makaroff pistol and a car loaded with explosives.  I don't think you had much room for manoeuvring out of any position if you encountered a roadblock, had you?  It could have been no worse because the other person in the car also had a pistol?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: There are incidents, Chairperson, where we managed to slip out or to manoeuvre roadblocks based on being armed, having to fight it out.

CHAIRPERSON: And if you had to fight it out you would do better if both of you were armed?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: It depends on the situation.  It's not always where you'll find the unit, all of the members being armed.  This will go according to the available resources.

CHAIRPERSON: You're now giving a completely different reason from the one you gave a few minutes ago.  Now you say it's according to the available resources, do you, that he was not armed?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: I'm trying to stick to my previous answer Chairperson.  A pistol, it's not really something to fight it out but something you use to defend oneself.  If it was a plan to fight it in case of roadblocks, as the person was responsible or in command, I was going to make sure that things heavier than pistols - AK's - were going to be planned for the operation.  Therefore according to the plan I didn't foresee any need or reason for AK's or every member to be armed and today when I appreciate the situation, I think it worked out correctly.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Perhaps I can assist Mr Chairman.  Was it the intention that, if you came upon a situation which involved some sort of trouble that ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I thought Mr Landman was cross-examining the applicant?

MR VAN DEN BERG: I'm not sure what the order of procedure was.

CHAIRPERSON: You've interrupted Mr Landman but you certainly are not re-examining at the present time.

MR VAN DEN BERG: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Mr Landman.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman seeing that all the relevant questions were asked by the Members of the Committee I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior sitting over there, yes.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Dumakude we're grateful that you appeared today and at such short notice but there are certain areas that puzzle myself and no doubt, I'm assisting the victims in this matter, try and find out the truth.  Particularly Mrs Klukas who lost her husband and Mrs Erasmus who lost her husband.
	Now if I understand your evidence, you agree that the policy of the ANC at the time was that at these type of operations conducted by Special Units of M.K. a loss of civilian life was to be avoided.  That was the general policy, is that correct?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: I full agree with you there.

ADV PRIOR: And that policy had come a long way in formulation because of the experiences of the past is it not correct?  That decision had been taken at the highest level within the ANC and the M.K. is that correct?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Here to further ...[indistinct] on my answer, yes it was to avoid but we can't totally as the late president O.R. states, we can't totally avoid civilian life being lost.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, I just want to establish some background because as I understand the policy of the ANC as it was announced at the various open hearings to which your counsel has referred, it was made quite clear at the open hearings - that is Mr Chairman, the last armed force hearing on the 10th October 1997 at page 1 of the transcript.  I refer to a statement made by Mr Maharaj on behalf of the ANC that he said 	"In the '88 August National Executive the ANC again in
the public statement to the people stated that the ANC hereby underscores that it is contrary to our policy to select targets whose sole objective is to strike at civilians."
And what I want to put to you that what Mr Maharaj said there is that the ANC was reaffirming what the policy had been all along that targets ought not to be selected where purely civilians were to be effected.  I just want your comment, is that correct?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: The purpose of placing the explosive was not directed at the civilian as targets but as civilians who were going to spread the message.  That was the intention.

ADV PRIOR: Alright, I'll come back to that.  Now further on in that submission which is already before the Commission, reference was made to the McGoo's Bar Bomb, are you aware of that incident?  That happened in Durban on the 14th June 1986.  Are you aware of that incident?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Yes I am aware.

ADV PRIOR: Now at page 38 and 39 of the submissions of the security forces on the 10th October, Mr Maharaj was asked about that type of incident where purely civilians were targeted and he said at page 39 of the transcript, he said
"Firstly, again in our representation we show how when we noticed this phenomena manifesting itself that civilians were becoming the people who were suffering"
and he was referring to the McGoo's Bar bombing, that was in '86, he said:
"President Tambo called a special meeting of military headquarters to raise the problem, give a directive and arising out of that meeting, senior commanders including the overall commander Joe Modise, were sent out to the forward areas to brief the command structures."
and he says further:
"Furthermore, as happened with the land mine cases we saw that the consequences we deed were not being realised, we put a stop to the action."
You understand what I'm reading to you?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Yes I do.

ADV PRIOR: My question is actually twofold.  Were you at such a meeting when President Tambo addressed the hierarchy of M.K. on this issue of civilian targets?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: No, I was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that, Mr Prior?

ADV PRIOR: When was what?

CHAIRPERSON: When President Tambo addressed this meeting?

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman I'm reading from pages 38 and 39, it's unclear when the date was but the reference by Mr Maharaj on behalf of the ANC was in reply to the question after the McGoo's Bar bombing, what was the reaction and Mr Maharaj answered that
	"When we noticed the phenomena of civilians"
he put it in that perspective so I understand it was sometime after the McGoo's bombing, exactly when I don't know.  Possibly the applicant or Mr van den Berg is in a better position to answer that or to assist us.
	Mr Dumakude, if I understand your evidence, if you saw that the crowd was leaving the stadium earlier than you anticipated, you would have then detonated the bomb before the timing device was set to explode, is that correct?  You would have done so with the remote control?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: That's what I've said.

ADV PRIOR: And you would have done so with the sole intention of avoiding injury or casualty with civilians, is that correct?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Do I understand from that you were in such a position to see the exit of the Ellis Park Stadium?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: That's according to my reconnaissance.

ADV PRIOR: Sorry, I beg your pardon and that was in relation from your position, the car, where the bomb was and the exit of the stadium, you had a good view of that position?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Yes I did.

ADV PRIOR: I understood your evidence also to indicate that you had been observed and you seem to refer to the two people that died in the explosion, can you maybe just explain that?  Or let me ask you this - had you been observed by these, the two deceased, persons while you were setting the device?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: This is my perception.  Yes I was in the sense that after placing the vehicle they moved towards my direction.