Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, just a few aspects I would like to put to the witness.  If I may just refer the Committee to page 1044 of the inquest record and further, I'm not going to quote it in full.  Mr Simelane, a member of the public who was on her way to work, a certain Mrs Prinsloo, saw the incident at the entrance of Lancet Hall, and
gave evidence at the inquest court about that.  Her evidence in a nutshell is, that the two Mr Dlamini's were shot from behind whilst they were running away from the guards.

MS MORAKA: Chairperson, the record will not indicate that that is what Ms Dawn Prinsloo said.  Ms Prinsloo talked about people who were shot at, she did not know who they were.  In fact, she talked about marches and the two Dlamini's, saying they were not part of any march.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr ...(inaudible), so you're not precise then.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, giving that whole day at Lancet Hall at far as occasions were concerned that there was shooting, there were only two occasions when shooting erupted around Lancet Hall.  The one occasion was at 08h00 right in front of the entrance of Lancet Hall.  That is the occasion that the two Mr Dlamini's were injured.  Mrs Prinsloo testified as to that occasion.

CHAIRPERSON: She says she saw two people being shot?

MR PRETORIUS: She saw people being shot at, and she saw one grabbed his ankle as they were running away.  She explained the whole incident the way she saw it.  If my learned friend now suggests that there was another occasion when the two guards - when there was more than one guard, it was three guards she explained, were shooting at people outside Lancet Hall, then she must indicate to us that now, so that we know exactly what occasion she's referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now, let's put it this way, I haven't heard any evidence of how many people fired from Lancet Hall yet.  You tell me that there were two firings, two shootings and so on, but I haven't heard any evidence about that.

MR PRETORIUS: The evidence of this witness confirms it, he testified to that two occasions.  In the first place he testified about the occasion at 08h00 in the morning at the entrance of Lancet Hall, that's the entrance in Jeppe Street, Mr Honourable Chairman.  On the second occasion, that was the occasion that was referred to later on when Mr Chonco was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: He heard the firing whilst he was in the basement isn't it?

MR CURRIN: Correction Chairperson, he heard the firing while he was in the foyer.

CHAIRPERSON: He was in the foyer, I'm sorry, my apologies.

MS MORAKA: Chairperson, just for the sake of clarity, all that I'm indicating to my learned friend and to the Committee was that he must quote the witness correctly, the witness did not talk about the two Dlamini's.  She did not know who the people who were injured were.  I was just saying my learned friend must be precise when he quotes the record.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Pretorius is the position that this witness, Ms Prinsloo, says she saw two people who were shot, they turned out to be ...(intervention)

MR PRETORIUS: That is the correct position.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let's put correct, you didn't say - you told him two Dlamini's were shot, he won't know they were two Dlamini's that were shot.  You heard that there's a witness who gave evidence at the inquest to say that she saw in front of Lancet Hall two people who were shot, not injured, did you hear that evidence?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Chairperson and members of the Committee, I had said before that my attorney wanted to explain to me about the two Dlamini's who got injured at Jeppe Street, but I had already indicated before that I told her that I do not think this matter concerns me, so I have nothing to say about the two Dlamini's.  I did not see when they got shot, so there's absolutely nothing I can say about the two Dlamini's.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please proceed.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Simelane, is it your evidence that the door to the garage was actually broken by the marchers as they attempted to gain entrance to the garage?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) in front of the gate, did it?     Is it the gate or the door?

MR PRETORIUS: It is the gate.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Simelane, I put it to you as well, that that is a lie, a Police Officer, Mr Potgieter, testified that he after the shooting wanted to gain entrance to Lancet Hall, and he in fact forced that gate open as to gain entrance to Lancet Hall.  Any comments on that?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I do not know Mr Potgieter, but what I said is that the IFP marchers tried to open the gate forcefully and I shot with the gun that I had in my possession, and I did not see anybody getting injured, that's all I can say.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Listen to the question please.  It's being put to you that a Policeman who went there found that the gate was intact.  He even tried to open the gate forcefully himself, now, which means that the gate was still intact.  Now the attorney wants to know as to what you have to say about that, what's your comment on that.

MR TIPP: ...(inaudible) trying to explain to the Committee because the member of the Committee is talking about an event that occurred - I think my learned friend is referring to an event that occurred in the early morning, and ...(intervention)

MR PRETORIUS: I'm not referring to the event, I'm referring immediately after the garage incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there evidence that the gate was intact when Mr Potgieter tried to work on it?

MR PRETORIUS: Indeed, sir, and his evidence was also that he forced that gate open and that he did gain entrance to Lancet Hall through that way.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Have you any comment to make about that evidence?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Maybe Mr Pretorius is making a mistake.  If you do read the inquest record, this Potgieter that you are referring to talks about the 08h00 incident and not the 10h00 incident.  Could you please read the record properly, then  you'd see what I'm referring to.

MS MORAKA: Chairperson, I've just been alerted to a statement I know you did - a statement by Mr Potgieter at the inquest indicated that he was talking about an earlier event.

UNKNOWN: You are referring to the event that occurred in the foyer.

MS MORAKA: Your evidence - the evidence of Mr Potgieter in a nutshell, was that there was an event at roundabout 08h00 in the morning, he then ran to Lancet Hall, was unable to gain entry in the front and went and forced entry at the back.  The reference would be his statement A35.

UNKNOWN: May I just get clarity, Ms Moraka, was he referring to the incident that happened at the foyer of Shell House?

MS MORAKA: Yes, he was.

MR LAX: Mr Pretorius, my recollection of reading Judge Newgent's findings was that after that first incident, Policemen did indeed try to gain access to the building, and someone did force some side entrance, I'm not clear on it, that was my recollection that something like that happened.  Whether that was part of it or not, obviously you can set us right, but I do recall something to that effect.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, we intend calling Mr Potgieter.  I think he can explain that, but be that as it may, it doesn't matter what incident it was referred to, fact of matter is that there's a Policeman who testified that that gate was broken by him, and not as this evidence indicates that it was forced and broken by a marcher.

MR LAX: Mr Pretorius, obviously if it was broken earlier in the morning, that strengthens this witnesses evidence.

MR PRETORIUS: Be it as it may, let's hear from Mr Potgieter what happened.  I don't think we can speculate now.  ...(inaudible) have the stuff before us.