Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-11

ERNEST RAMATALA: I said immediately after - from Kentucky, after they abduct Mr Bhila from us, I went straight to C.R. Swart, according to the instructions of Letsatse.  Ten to fifteen minutes Letsatse arrived, demand the car keys and take off the plate numbers of the very same vehicle.

MR HUGO: And were there other plate numbers underneath those ones?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No I didn't see other number plates.

MR HUGO: Well let me just put it to you also for completeness sake, Letsatse says he was not involved in the changing of these number plates at all?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Now if he denies everything, I don't know but he was there.

MR HUGO: Now Mr Ramatala, you said that you didn't apply for amnesty and your perception was that there was no need for you to apply for amnesty in the sense that you didn't do anything wrong.  Are you still of the same opinion today?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: And I don't want you to give us a legal opinion, that would be unfair but would you say to the best of your knowledge there was any need for the other black members that partook in this operation to apply for amnesty in the sense that they did anything wrong?

ERNEST RAMATALA: So I must talk on behalf of them?

MR HUGO: No, you shouldn't - you don't have to do that, you were there on your version when everything was planned and executed etc., did they do anything wrong that necessitated them ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: But he wasn't there, he said that from the time of the abduction he had nothing further to do with it, he doesn't know what the other black people did after that.

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman, I'm just referring to the Vlakplaas black members who were present during the first meeting, the second meeting and this particular witness, he was present then, and the abduction.  Those are the only three incidents that I'm referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: And they remained, didn't they, they didn't all come back, only two others came back with him, to C.R. Swart?

MR HUGO: Well Mr Chairman, that's another question that we have to canvass with this witness, I'll just ask him that.
	Mr Ramatala, when Mr Bhila was then put into the other Combi at what stage did the other black members arrive at C.R. Swart?

ERNEST RAMATALA: I said earlier as I remember seeing Mhieza and Lembedi, Lembedi opening the door, the front seat door immediately.

MR HUGO: No, I don't understand your question, your answer, you testified that Mr Bhila was then handed over to - well you can't recall whether Mr McCarter was there but he was then taken in this Combi and he was carted away.  When did you for the first time after that see the other black members?  After Mr Biela had been handed over?

ERNEST RAMATALA: The first one I saw is Letsatse when he came and fetched the keys to us in about ten to fifteen minutes and others I saw them late.

MR HUGO: You also made mention of the fact that you weren't paid a bonus for this particular operation, what was the custom at Vlakplaas in respect of bonuses and amounts that were paid after operations had been carried out.

ERNEST RAMATALA: The bonus was a way of encouraging them to work to identify seriously.

MR HUGO: But is it not true that there were proper structures for members of Vlakplaas in terms whereof they would be rewarded if weapons were found, like AK47's?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

MR HUGO: And the same applied for arrests of so-called terrorists and the idea was never that Vlakplaas members would be compensated for killing people at random?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Can you repeat it?

MR HUGO: I'm just saying on this question of compensation, isn't it true that you were never compensated just for the sake of killing people, you had to go and arrest terrorists or so-called terrorists and or find weapons like AK47's etc?

ERNEST RAMATALA: You see when talking about this issue of compensation, the whole group of Vlakplaas, all of them they cannot be involved in ...[indistinct] or killing one person, there maybe can be two people or three people involved.  Others don't know about that when coming to a mere arrest where others can make a trip, others can watch or keep or still like that but bonus we used to get.  But even those who were killed, who kill, they used to get the bonus.

MR HUGO: Ja, but you were never told by Mr de Kock and or other people at Vlakplaas to your knowledge that you would be paid if you go and kill people?

MR MALAN: But Mr Hugo that wasn't his evidence, he talked about performing a specific function or instruction and then bonuses would ...[inaudible]

MR HUGO: Afterward yes ...[inaudible]
	Then Mr Ramatala, you also made mention of a photo that was shown to you, where did this photo come from and I'm referring to the first meeting, the first order group meeting when you were initially instructed?

ERNEST RAMATALA: I can say that one from Mr Mhieza.

MR HUGO: I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Can you just press - thanks.  Please don't touch it, leave it like that.  Now for the sake of information, these bonuses that were paid to you, were they fixed bonuses or you received varying amounts at different times?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

MR NGUBANE: Well if you say ...[inaudible]

ERNEST RAMATALA: ...[inaudible] to others, maybe the group there were five, can be 2000 or 3000 each.

MR NGUBANE: And as far as you are aware, did Mr Makata - I'm sorry I'm used to Makata the football player.  Makata, did he at any stage discuss with you this question of bonuses?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No nothing.

MR NGUBANE: Okay.  The impression that you gained about these bonuses was it that it was the practice of Vlakplaas or it applied to all the security branches in South Africa?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No, the practice of Vlakplaas.

MR NGUBANE: Alright.  Now the members of the Durban branch security, Wasserman did you know him?

ERNEST RAMATALA: That one?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And Taylor?  Major Taylor?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes

MR NGUBANE: And during your stay in Durban, during this period when Bhila was killed, did you discuss any operation with Mr Wasserman?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No nothing.

MR NGUBANE: And with Mr Taylor?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Nothing.

MR NGUBANE: They were higher up you had no contact with them?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

MR NGUBANE: I see.  Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

ADV PRIOR: There's no re-examination thank you.

ADV SIGODI: There's just one aspect on the issue of bonuses.  Would you say that it was the practice at Vlakplaas to - let me say, would you say that the killing of a person was an act which was so serious that it warranted the payment of a bonus?

ERNEST RAMATALA: I have never been in the killing at first place in Vlakplaas but on arresting , getting some firearms, there was a bonus but for those who were involved in the killings, it's only now we can see that their bonus was too much.

ADV SIGODI: Do you perhaps know how much they would be paid?

ERNEST RAMATALA: No I don't know but it's only now from the Truth Commission we start to hear that oh, this one used to get this.

ADV SIGODI: But at the time that you were at Vlakplaas, you never knew how much people would be paid for the killing?

ERNEST RAMATALA: The killing of a person is a very difficult thing.

ADV SIGODI: Yes.

ERNEST RAMATALA: It doesn't involve the whole group.

ADV SIGODI: Yes.

ERNEST RAMATALA: There were particular persons who are going to be involved so those two or three people, they are the ones that know the bonuses, how much they received.

ADV SIGODI: Would you say that this payment of bonuses would be something that would make it easier or be an incentive on the people at Vlakplaas to kill more easily than other branches?