Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-15

ADV GCABASHE: You see, your difficulty with that, and my difficulty is, the Officer in command on this mission, was a member of a different organisation.  You were representing your organisation.
	Why do you then rely on an Officer from a different organisation, to do your reporting for you to your own Commander?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Because it had been discussed before, there were certain operations that we had to undertake along with the BWB and whoever had the higher rank, would then be the Officer in command for that operation.  At that stage De Meillon was the Commander of our group.

ADV GCABASHE: Did you have any idea at all as to how the arsenal was going to split between the two organisations?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No Mr Chair, except that it would have been used for the safe houses.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Mr Van Zyl, thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Adv Gcabashe.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairperson, I beg your pardon for the cellphone which was on.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it happens to most of us, technology.  Mr Van Zyl, from your perspective, how would you have described this operation?  Was it successful or not?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No, it wasn't.

CHAIRPERSON: And why would you not describe this as a success?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Because the objective was to obtain an amount of weapons and that amount of weapons was not obtained, and in the process, innocent people were shot dead during the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: When you arrived in Pretoria, and you started finding out that the operation didn't look as if it was going to be particularly successful, what was your attitude then?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I thought that it would be very dangerous to attempt an attack on the Army Headquarters in the middle of the city when we didn't even have proper weapons and innocent people would be killed, simply to obtain these weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: And if they had told you in Secunda, before you had departed that the three of you would be attacking the Military Headquarters in the heart of Pretoria?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I wouldn't have gone.

CHAIRPERSON: At your own cost you drove the car, and I assume that you covered the expense for the petrol?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the uniforms, why did you take the uniforms along?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: In order to render ourselves invisible, so that we would not be noticed because brown is not an easily observable colour at night.

CHAIRPERSON: So it is a sort of method of camouflage?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you think that it would be a type of thing during which you would act covertly, you would be camouflaged and basically you would be stealing weapons in a way that you would not be found out?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't think that you would storm a number of guards, shoot them down, grab their weapons and run?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No.

CHAIRPERSON: This was on a Saturday, is that correct?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were with a friend of yours?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Saturday afternoon?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do there?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: We were watching rugby.

CHAIRPERSON: Along with your friend?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So basically you were busy relaxing?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then Holder arrived there, there where you were with your friend?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And was he at your house before that?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: As I understand, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did he do there?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Well, he must have come to visit me and didn't find me at home, only my wife and children were there.

CHAIRPERSON: So he was probably also in a very relaxed mood?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And he probably wanted to come and watch the rugby with you?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, I assume that.

CHAIRPERSON: You said you were all normal during this incident?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetzee?

MR COETZEE: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Van Zyl, according to your knowledge, did Gen Van Rensburg know Ockie van Schalkwyk?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: And according to your knowledge how well acquainted were they?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: They were reasonably well acquainted.

MR COETZEE: When Mr Van Rensburg told you that he would report to Van Schalkwyk regarding what had happened, did that satisfy you?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, it did.

MR COETZEE: Just to achieve some clarity regarding the dropping off of Mr De Meillon, you said that there was a road running into Secunda, but that road did not run directly to the residential area which was parallel to the road?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: And at the spot where Mr De Meillon was dropped off, this spot was a spot that he pointed out where he wished to be dropped off?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: And that point where he wanted to be dropped off, how far in walking distance would that be from Mr Van Rensburg's house?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Approximately 200 metres.

MR COETZEE: And when you dropped him off there, where did you think Mr De Meillon was going?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: He said that he was on his way to Mr Van Rensburg's house.

MR COETZEE: And was it agreed then that you would also go there with your car?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No.

MR COETZEE: So upon whose initiative was it decided to go round to Mr Van Rensburg's house?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: My own.

MR COETZEE: So you took the tar road and by the time you arrived there, Mr Van Schalkwyk reported that Mr De Meillon had already been there?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: At the stage when you were arrested by the South African Police, during their questioning of you, was it ever mentioned that they may be interested or did they indicate that they knew that you had been in Pretoria, or suspected that you were in Pretoria before the Devon excursion?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No.

MR COETZEE: So during questioning, was it ever mentioned by the questioning team that you should tell them more about Pretoria?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: No.

MR COETZEE: What was the cause of your pointing out of Devon?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: They asked me to point out the route to Devon where the incident had occurred.

MR COETZEE: And the incident to which was referred, was the murder and the armed robbery for which you were arrested?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.

MR COETZEE: With regard to your right-wing politics, did you ever give it up at any stage?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR COETZEE: And why did you do that?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I don't understand.

MR COETZEE: What did you do?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I went to the police station and under oath, I made a statement that I was no longer involved with any right-wing or other political party and that I had no wish to join a party again.

MR COETZEE: When did you do that?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: I was arrested on the Thursday and I did this on the Monday after my arrest.

MR COETZEE: And upon whose initiative did this take place, yours or the police's?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN ZYL: My own.

MR COETZEE: Your evidence is that while you were on your way to Pretoria, no detailed planning was undertaken or discussed regarding exactly what was going to occur in Pretoria.  Did you believe that once the plan was executed, planning would be conveyed to you in the sense of we expect you to do this and we expect him to do that and this is where we will meet again, and so on and so forth?