Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-13

MR KOOPEDI: So what you're saying is, all the information that you got you discussed it with the other members of the unit?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That's what I did, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: And flowing from the questions you've just answered, was there any other unit to your knowledge, that was operating in Lesotho, doing the same job you were doing, gathering information on liberation movements?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: To my knowledge we were the only unit performing that task, I did not know of any other units that might have been in Lesotho.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  Let's go back to where we were before we were interrupted.  When did you start preparing for your son's baptismal party?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I'm not quite sure as to the dates, but before the baptismal there's a certain duty, the parent to the child has to attend certain classes, now in some of the days I would pick up my wife and take her to these classes.

MR KOOPEDI: But when was this, when did you start these preparations?  When did you start being absent from work because you were preparing for the baptismal party?

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should rephrase your question because he understands the taking to the classes which you and I know, before the actual thing you've got to attend those classes and there would be preparations for the actual baptismal.  I think we should get that - we should rather rephrase it along those lines, because your first question, the answer suggests that he did not understand you at all.

MR KOOPEDI: I'll start afresh.
	You said in your evidence that at some stage you did not go to work every day, is that correct?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: If you understood me well, not to mean I did not attend at all, what I would do would be to ask a few hours and attend to the family matters.

MR KOOPEDI: Now if I understand what you're saying correctly, are you saying that there is not a single day that you stayed away from work because you were preparing for your son's baptismal?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I am saying I requested hours from work, not totally abstain from work, no.

MR KOOPEDI: I heard you say, perhaps I will check my record, I heard you say there were days where you didn't go to work because you were preparing for your son's baptismal and that is why you didn't get to know some of these things.  So did I hear you wrong?

INTERPRETER: The Chairperson's mike is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON: I say he might not have heard everything, but the answer is as he's giving it now.  That he used to ask for a few hours to go and attend to such preparations, but not that he took some time off work.
	Would I be correct, Mr Thulo?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: You are correct, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: Let's go to this farm.  Prior to the day Betty Boom was taken, is it correct that you had no knowledge of the existence of this farm?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chair.

MR KOOPEDI: Now when you went to fetch Betty Boom, where did you think you're taking her?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: When we left Lesotho we were going to Ladybrand, I was driving the vehicle, I was instructed, I was being given directions until we got to the farm.

MR KOOPEDI: Who was giving you instructions, directions?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: It's Mr Jagga.

MR KOOPEDI: When you got to this farm, did you gain the impression that your colleagues know their way around this farm?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That was not my impression, but they freely unlocked the door, they freely got into the house.  That  would give you an impression that they knew the farm.

MR KOOPEDI: Now for how long did you work in this farm personally?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I'm not quite sure, but six, if not seven days.

MR KOOPEDI: You didn't use the farm for about two months?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson.

MR KOOPEDI: I put it to you that's what you said in your evidence-in-chief, that you worked and used this farm for two months.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I object, that is not what he said.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, Mr Koopedi, he did not.

MR KOOPEDI: ...(inaudible - no microphone)
	You said in your evidence-in-chief that you were used to guard Betty.  Now during the times that you were guarding her, did you have any conversations with her?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I did not ask any important thing from her.

MR KOOPEDI: What does that mean?  Does it mean you don't know what you spoke to her about?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I recall what I asked Betty, I asked her where she was from.  I think to me it was important to know where she comes from, but as far her work is concerned I did not ask her anything.

MR KOOPEDI: So you did not discuss the fact that she was an informer?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I did not touch that one.

MR KOOPEDI: Now for her to leave the room where both of you were, did she need to get your permission to do that, or someone else's permission?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: She asked permission to go to the ladies room, otherwise she was not allowed to go anywhere.

MR KOOPEDI: Was she ever refused to go anywhere?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Where did she want to go?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: May I explain this?  When I say she was not allowed to go anywhere, it means she was not allowed to go outside, she was not allowed to take walks around the house.  Yes, that's my explanation.  She was not allowed to go anywhere.

MR KOOPEDI: Nomasonto.  When Nomasonto was fetched, when exactly were you told that Nomasonto was going to be fetched?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, all these acts, in all these acts I would not be informed a day before, I was informed on the day of the incident.  I was informed on that day of fetching Nomasonto.

MR KOOPEDI: And when you fetched Nomasonto and you went to the border, did you produce anything?  Did you produce your passport, your six months no stamp passport?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: When we got to the border, Chairperson, I do not recall producing any passport, I stopped, I greeted the policemen at the border and I was allowed to pass, that's all.

MR KOOPEDI: And when you - on this day, the day you went for Nomasonto, how long had it been that Betty was kept at the farm?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: It could have been a day, if I recall Chairperson, I'm not sure.

MR KOOPEDI: And you also were given no information why Nomasonto was being fetched or abducted?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, not on a single day was I given a reason why I had to do something, I was only given an instruction or a command to go with Jantjie or Jagga, to go into Lesotho, no further explanation than that one.

MR KOOPEDI: Was it your impression that all these people that are being fetched, they are fetched voluntarily?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I believe so, because not all of them would get into a car without any force being used, without any pressure.

MR KOOPEDI: Now did it not seem strange to have people who have been fetched voluntarily, to have such people guarded?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Even if it looks strange, there was nothing I could do.

MR KOOPEDI: But did it ...(inaudible)

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Now Tax.  The same thing happened, you were told on the same day and you didn't know anything, you just went, collected and came back, is that correct?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Okay.  Now with regards to Mbulelo, so-called KK, what made you defy the order that you were given?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, who says he defied an order?  On what evidence is this question based?

CHAIRPERSON: Could you rephrase ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR KOOPEDI: I'll rephrase, Chairperson, gladly so.
	Is it correct that you were ordered to go and recruit Mbulelo?

CHAIRPERSON: No, fetch.

MR KOOPEDI: No, Chairperson, they were sent to go and recruit.  That's what I heard.

MR VISSER: That's correct, Chairperson.  "Sent to go and fetch, alternatively bring back".

MR LAX: Sorry, you just used the word fetch, Mr Visser, recruit ...(indistinct - no microphone)