Amnesty Hearings — Phokeng — 1996-05-20

MR CURRIN: You were convicted and sentenced in relation to the murder which we have been discussing and which is the subject of this application.  That is the murder of Glad Mokatle.

MR MOKGATLE: It is like that.

MR CURRIN: Could you tell us, before we proceed with that detail, where you were born?

MR MOKGATLE: I was born in Phokeng, in 1943.

MR CURRIN: And at the time of this particular incident, where were you living and where were you working?

MR MOKGATLE: At that time of the incident I was working in Johannesburg, in the Randburg Town Council.

MR CURRIN: Where were you living?

MR MOKGATLE: My family was in Phokeng.

MR CURRIN: Are you married?

MR MOKGATLE: Yes.

MR CURRIN: Do you have any children, and how many?

MR MOKGATLE: I have four children.

MR CURRIN: And what are their ages?

MR MOKGATLE: One was born in 1969, the second born in 1971, the third born in 1977 and the fourth born in 1989.

MR CURRIN: Were you a member of the action committee?

MR MOKGATLE: Yes, I was.
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MR CURRIN: Were heard from the previous witness that there were action committee members living in Johannesburg as well as those that were living here.  Were you one of the Johannesburg action committee members?

MR MOKGATLE: Yes, indeed.

MR CURRIN: Why were there action committee members in Johannesburg?

MR MOKGATLE: It is because of the problems that we had in Phokeng in connection with the BOP Government.

MR CURRIN: Could you just elaborate a little bit more on that answer?

MR MOKGATLE: If I have to elaborate, the Bophuthatswana Government was oppressing the people here at Phokeng and we didn't have any meeting, meetings that were supposed to be held by the Baphokeng tribe and it happened that one day the Baphokeng tribe asked us can you people in Johannesburg come down to help us fight this.  They said maybe you could be of assistance, because in Johannesburg there can be venues where we can hold meetings without any disturbance.  That is how we managed to continue with Baphokeng activities.

MR CURRIN: That was in 1990, after the political situation in South Africa had begun to be normalised.  Is that correct?

MR MOKGATLE: Yes, that is correct.

MR CURRIN: On the day that Glad Mokgatle was murdered, there was a large group of Phiris who went to make representations, and to collect this key for this venue.  Were you part of that large group?

MR MOKGATLE: Yes, I was part of the group.

MR CURRIN: Could you please tell the Committee members about your participation in that larger group and your
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subsequent participation in the smaller group of ten people, who took the deceased hostage?

MR MOKGATLE: On the day that we held our meeting at the Roman Catholic Church, we were members of the action committee, together with the Phiri, because we had been asking the Bophuthatswana Government many things that they wouldn't agree with.  When we met with the Phiri we took a decision.  We said to ourselves we are going to search for the keys, the keys to our offices.  Those keys do not belong to the Bophuthatswana Government, they belong to the Baphokeng tribe.  And then we left to go and see Mr Billie Ramirise.
	When we entered his place, trying to ask him where the keys were, the police arrived, the Bophuthatswana police.  They said nothing, they started shooting at people with the rubber bullets.  We hadn't had information about the keys.  And then we dispersed.  We were many.  And it happened that we came together as the action committee.  We said as an action committee we don't know where the keys are and we asked ourselves do we have any plan to get those keys, because they belong to us as the Baphokeng tribe.  Because there were many of us, there were a lot of suggestions as well.  
	And the decision to take Mr Mokgatle, the chairman, that was the right decision, because we thought he would tell us everything he knows about the keys.
	There was a concern raised, seeing that the police were so on arms, how can we get to Mr Mokgatle's house, are they going to shoot at us, what are we going to do.  Then we decided to kidnap Mr Glad Mokgatle.  The decision was to keep him at a place where he would not be seen by anyone.  
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We would interrogate him, to ask him questions about the keys.  And if he gives us an answer, some of our members would go and get the keys.  That was a very good suggestion and we all agreed.  
	We got into the Kombi, ten of us and we went to Chaneng.  When we arrived at Chaneng other members of the group got outside. They went into the house.  I was one of the people who stayed behind.  I was surprised to see them taking a long time.  Because we knew, kidnapping is something that happens so quick.  I wanted to go and investigate what was happening.  I used the front entrance and I met Mr Glad Mokgatle standing at the bedroom door, carrying a panga.  I was scared to enter because he would start with me, he would kill me first.  I decided to go to the back door.  When I entered the house he had already been grabbed by the rest of the men and they took him into the Kombi.  
	I thought he would tell us where the keys were.  There was no order in the Kombi, because everybody wanted to ask him where the keys were.   While he tried to answer there would be a question from the next one, and in that manner we couldn't hear where the keys were.  
	We drove into the veld.  I am working hard at Gauteng.  While we were still driving I saw the Kombi stopping.  The door was opened and Mr Glad Mokgatle was already on the ground, and it was a fight.  I got out of the Kombi and I just stood surprised.  I was really angry, because there was never such a decision to assault him.  I saw some of the members getting into the Kombi so quickly and it drove off.  When we drove off I had a look at Mr Mokgatle and I could see that he was still alive.  I took the sabre from him and 
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I chopped him.  I chopped him personally.  I chopped him because I realised that we were heading for the prison.  I wanted to seep away the evidence.  (Applause).
	I didn't want anybody to know or to have any light that Mr Mokgatle was here.  We went into the Kombi and we drove off.  
	On the way some of the people got off the Kombi. I went to a funeral at the vigil.  Later on I went home.  At home, the following morning, the police started to arrest people.  The whole day I wasn't feeling well, because I had never been arrested before and I had this strange feeling throughout my whole body. It came to pass.  I told my wife that this BOP police arrest anyone indiscriminately, but I didn't explain to her that we have committed a crime.  Then I moved away, saying that I would come later.  At that point I decided to go away to Johannesburg.
	I stayed a few days in Johannesburg and the BOP police came to Johannesburg and arrested me there.  They brought me back to BOP.   After I was here in BOP I appeared in court.  I was sentenced 15 years imprisonment.

MR CURRIN: You admitted your active participation in the murder?

MR MOKGATLE: Pertaining to who?  At the court?

MR CURRIN: Yes, at the court or even to your family, to your wife.  You said to your wife that the police just arrest people indiscriminately.  Subsequently have you ever told her or anybody else, other than maybe for the purposes of this application, of your active involvement?

MR MOKGATLE: I don't understand properly.  I wish that the one interpreter can speak louder.

MR CURRIN: We understand, that although you were
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sentenced, you had actually previously denied your active participation in the kiling.  Is that correct?

MR MOKGATLE: Yes, that's correct, sir.

MR CURRIN: Is this today the first time that you have publicly admitted your active participation?

MR MOKGATLE: This is my first time, sir.