Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-10

MR MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: When are you referring to, when did he hide them away?

MR MTHEMBU: I am speaking of the period of when the weapons arrived at Kwamadala Hostel.

MR BERGER: And when was that period?

MR MTHEMBU: Prior to the attack on Boipatong.

MR BERGER: So prior to the attack on Boipatong you  were aware that weapons were being hidden in the hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: Although I cannot explain it but I think there were because we were then supposed to attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that because these firearms were handed out to you on the night of the attack, you assume that they must have always been there?
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MR MTHEMBU: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a person called Damarra Chonco.

MR MTHEMBU: Damarra Chonco, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well in paragraph 6 of your affidavit you referred to a person by the name of Damarra Chonco.

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is his surname, is it Gonku or Chonco?

MR MTHEMBU: It's Chonco.

CHAIRPERSON: So there's a mistake here?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Vanana Zulu, is it Vanana Zulu or is it Fanana Zulu?

MR MTHEMBU: Vanana.

CHAIRPERSON: Vanana: V-A?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, is it your evidence that nobody informed you prior to the attack on Boipatong that weapons were being purchased from the money that had been collected from you and other residents and that those weapons were being brought to Kwamadala?  Nobody informed you and you never became aware of that?

MR MTHEMBU: Nobody informed me about that.

MR BERGER: And you never became aware of that from anybody?

MR MTHEMBU: What I can explain is that I once saw Mr Chonco arriving in a car having these weapons.

MR BERGER: And that was many days before the attack on Boipatong?

MR MTHEMBU: It was shortly before the attack on Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Why then do you say that you assumed that weapons were kept at the hostel before the attack on Boipatong when in fact you knew that weapons had been brought to the hostel before the attack on Boipatong?

MR MTHEMBU: As I have already explained Sir, that I cannot be aware of everything that happens in that hostel because I had other things to do.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, isn't it correct that money was collected before the attack, well before the attack on Boipatong?  Money was collected from hostel residents at Kwamadala to buy guns?

MR MTHEMBU: That happened.  When I arrived there it was already happening at the hostel but I had no knowledge of what the money was being used for.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that at previous meetings before the attack on Boipatong, you were told that the money which had been collected from you, you being all the residents, had been used to purchase guns, weapons?

MR MTHEMBU: It is possible but I may not have been present at that meeting.

MR BERGER: I'm asking whether you were told at those meetings that the money you collected was being used to buy guns?

MR MTHEMBU: As I have already mentioned, I may not have been at that meeting when they were told.

MR BERGER: Let me read to you what you've said.  The question was put to you, page 20, paragraph 24
"You allege that Damarra Chonco brought weapons from Vosloorus to Kwamadala"?
Your answer at page 32, paragraph 24:
"Yes"
24.1
"How do you know he brought weapons from Vosloorus"?
Answer, page 32, paragraph 24.1:
"They told us at previous meetings that Mr Chonco went to buy weapons with our money that they collected from us.  He used his car and went to Vosloorus and we were supposed to pay him some more money for using his car"
How can you now say that you were not at those meetings and you can't say what was said?

MR MTHEMBU: I say that because I know that, I may not have been present at the meetings and I may have heard about this from other people or from Mr Chonco himself after those meetings were held.

MR BERGER: Let me refer you to page 6, paragraph 8
"I also saw many weapons during the police operation at the hostel.  When they were attacked the South African Police came to search the hostel and found a lot of firearms which they confiscated.  No weapons were left, which resulted in Vanana Zulu telling us that everybody had to contribute so that more weapons could be bought.  We had to pay R800 per person who were working at the time, for these weapons"
Were you not at that meeting either?

MR MTHEMBU: I think I was present at that meeting because it is explained here, I was present at the meeting.

MR BERGER: And then after - and aren't those the previous meetings that you're referring to at page 32, paragraph 24.1?

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Chairperson, may I just mention one thing, that this statement on page 6 and paragraph 8 is in regard to the Sebokeng attacks and those Sebokeng attacks occurred after the Boipatong attack.  I think that is why it reads
"When they were attacked the South African Police came to search the hostel and found a lot of firearms which they confiscated"
This refers to the Sebokeng attack and not to the Boipatong attack.  The Boipatong attack only starts on page 8.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, with respect, if my learned friend could allow the witness to answer those questions it would be far more useful.  He now has a perfect avenue for escape.

CHAIRPERSON: The perfect avenue for - the issue is whether the question is permissable in the first place.  	What is the basis of your objection?

MS PRETORIUS: My objection is that it is clear from this statement that this first part was the affidavit that was annexed to the application for the Sebokeng matter, so this happened after the Boipatong massacre.  It must just be clear to the Committee, in my mind, that this has no bearing on what happened before the Boipatong attack.  This happened after the Boipatong attack.

MR BERGER: It's not clear from the statement at all Chairperson, that that is the position.

MS PRETORIUS: That is as far as I can take it Chairperson because as I say, this statement was initially attached to the Sebokeng matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, where does it indicate that it relates to the Sebokeng attack?

MS PRETORIUS: Unfortunately it does not because, it does not say that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS PRETORIUS: But on page 8 there is a heading that says
"The Boipatong Massacre"
and then it deals with the Boipatong Massacre.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, at page 8 it deals with it.

MS PRETORIUS: And in paragraph 8 on page 6 it says
"When they were attacked the South African Police came to search the hostel and found a lot of firearms which they confiscated"

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS PRETORIUS: There he speaks about the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Well unless you can indicate precisely what is the basis for the objection, I'm disposed to allow the question because it does seem to me that the statement itself does not purport to restrict itself to Sebokeng but on the contrary it appears to refer broadly to the situation which obtained in Boipatong.

MS PRETORIUS: As the Chairperson pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think you are perfectly entitled to re-examine the witness on the issues so as to clarify the matter that may well have been obscured by the vagueness of the statement, do you understand that?

MS PRETORIUS: I do, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.
	Do you still remember the question?
Mr Berger, do you want to put the question again?

MR BERGER: I'll put the question Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, page 6, paragraph 8 of your affidavit, you talk there about Mr Vanana Zulu telling after the police had confiscated guns from the hostel that money is required to purchase weapons and that you had to contribute R800 per person for those weapons.

MR MTHEMBU: As I've explained before, as it has been explained, this statement relates to the Sebokeng attack.