Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR HUGO: Mr Chairperson, Mr De Jager is correct, in the sense that I was not present here when he gave evidence yesterday but during the criminal trial of Mr De Kock Mr Nofomela for the first time conceded that up until now he had committed perjury in front of all the other forums where he had given evidence and that he was indeed not involved and he had not been present when Mr De Kock killed the other person.
	In his statement here he says that he was responsible for the killing of Japie Maponya and that he and Willie Nortje were involved in the death of Japie Maponya but that it did take place in Swaziland at a plantation near the
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Nasden border post.  He also says in this paragraph that Mr Nofomela is incorrect when he says that this operation took place under the command of Mr De Kock.  It is simply not true.  This operation was already ordered at the stage where Mr De Kock became involved in this operation.  This operation which gave rise to the unfortunate death of Japie Maponya was at an advanced stage when Mr De Kock arrived on the scene, and at that stage this operation was under the command of Warrant Officer Nortje who, according to Mr De Kock, in his affidavit was instructed by Colonel Johan le Roux who later became a general.  
	Mr Chairman, if we could just proceed to the so-called Lamontville killings or Chesterville killings.  Here Mr De Kock says that there was a total misrepresentation of the true facts.  He says that in actual fact he was asleep in a police barracks in Durban and that he was awoken early the morning by then Warrant Officer Willie Nortjie, Vermeulen and Makata(?) and informed that they had killed a group of people in a shooting incident. 
	Mr De Kock further states, which supports Mr Nofomela's allegation that before they left for Durban he arranged that an AK47 attack weapon should be drawn with the intention of using in the operation in Durban.  He says that the acquisition of this AK47 was with official permission, it went through the right channels and he goes further to say that he went and acquired this AK47 at the Security Branch Headquarters in Pretoria and he further states that when he went to fetch this AK47 it was clear to him, and he realised, that there was a large quantity of AK47 guns and magazines at the Police Headquarters which was available to them.  He says that he was not involved in the shootout and
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that a shootout happened on information received by Willie Nortje and at the time where he became involved. 
	Mr Chairperson, if you could just grant me the opportunity, I'd like to go to the so-called Amsterdam killings.  Here Mr De Kock says that Mr Nofomela is correct and he is giving a true reflection of the incident.  He further states under oath that the other person who was involved in this incident was Major Chris Deetlefs, Warrant Officer Labuschagne and a Warrant Officer Pienaar.  
	He also says that this incident took place after information had been obtained that the Piet Retief Security Branch and that branch was closely involved in this incident.  He also says that this operation was launched against ANC members who were previously responsible for planting landmines in the Eastern Transvaal and he says that when this operation took place they found that the people who were killed were in possession of hand grenades and that they also had AK47 rifles and other military ammunition and weapons. 
	 He proceeds to say as far as Mr Nofomela's allegation that Mr De Kock said that he did not believe in court procedure and that they should rather kill the people before the time, he says that he categorically denies that and he would not have said that they should proceed to just murder people at random.
	Mr Chairperson, if I could also just go over to the next incident where Mr Nofomela referred to the abduction of Glory Sedibe or a certain September.  Once again Mr De Kock  says that Mr Nofomela is correct.  There was such an operation planned. 
	Mr Chairperson, Mr De Kock further states in saying to
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you that this operation was planned and executed under the instruction of Brig Schoon and that Mr De Kock, acting on this instruction, proceeded in his turn to plan this operation and execute it.  Once again he says that there were other people involved with him, Mr Chris Deetlefs and a Warrant Officer Pienaar.  He then goes into detail to describe how there was a wrestling and Mr Sedibe resisted and how he was injured in the process.  For example he had a scratch over his nose, a deep cut over his nose, and that it took four persons to control him. 
	What is so interesting, Mr Chairman, is that Mr De Kock says that the intention was never to eliminate Glory Sedibe, alias September.  On the contrary he says in his submission that they wanted to retain him at all costs because they realised that he was going to be of such value to them and he was going to be able to provide them with valuable information.  He also says as far as the other aspect, which I marked the day before yesterday which you addressed, that the allegation of Mr Nofomela ... (CHANGE OVER TO TAPE 1 SIDE B) ... On their arrival at the police station in Swaziland, it was necessary for them to break into the police station since it was under lock and key.  
	For interest's sake he proceeds to say that in this process he was confronted by a young Swaziland police officer who was armed with a G3A automatic weapon which he pointed at Mr De Kock.  Mr De Kock in his turn drew his firearm and pointed it at this police officer and Mr De Kock succeeded in convincing the policeman to throw his weapon to the ground.  Mr De Kock further states that he does not know what happened to this G32 weapon, but it could possibly have come back to South Africa. 
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	He also says Mr Chairperson that Mr Sedibe was then
brought back to South Africa and in terms of section 29 of the old Internal Act was detained for a while and that Mr Sedibe in this time was dealt with by a Warrant Officer Freek Pienaar and apparently Warrant Officer Freek Pienaar succeeded in convincing Mr Sedibe to work for the South African Police, more specifically the Security Police. 
	Mr De Kock was then informed that Mr Sedibe, as a matter of speaking, had changed loyalties in the meantime and he was no longer loyal to the ANC but that he had decided to pledge loyalty to the South African Police and when Mr De Kock heard that he personally went and arranged that Mr Sedibe's wife and child be brought down from Mozambique to South Africa and he further states that he arranged himself for the wife and children of Mr Sedibe, were given false identity documents so that their lives weren't in as much danger when they returned to South Africa.
	He also says that Mr Sedibe then joined the South African Police and Mr De Kock himself was responsible for that.  
	He confirms that Mr Nofomela is correct in saying that Mr Glory Sedibe, alias September, was indeed the brother-in-law of the current Minister of Defence, Joe Modise, or the brother of Mr Modise's spouse.  Mr De Kock also says in this sworn affidavit that Mr Glory Sedibe, in spite of the fact that Mr De Kock was aware of the fact that there were family ties between Mr Sedibe and Minister Modise that he never provided the Security Branch with any information about Mr Modise. 
	If I could just proceed with the other aspect which
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Mr Nofomela dealt with and that is the so-called Lesotho attack in 1986.

UNKNOWN: Are you not busy repeating the affidavit and it was conceded that if you want to say anything else over and above what was said in the affidavit you may do so, because we accepted your document as it is.