Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-10

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   Do you know whether there were people who could speak fluent Zulu who could have interpreted for you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, an example as I said, there were people who could speak Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: But nevertheless they were not made available to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, they only gave me a person who spoke Sotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  We were told by some of the applicants that shortly after your arrival at the hostel, you used to mix with a small group of young men who spoke Sotho, what do you say to that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

CHAIRPERSON: You were born and brought up in Sebokeng, were you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was born in Everton.

CHAIRPERSON: In Everton, yes, very well.  What is the township there, is there a township there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is a shack area.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that where you were born and brought up?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you go to school in and around Everton?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the main language that is spoken there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is predominantly Sotho but there are also Zulus and Xhosas.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were not Sothos?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, you have told us that, I think you were asked whether all the people who came to visit you whilst you were in prison, whether they came on their own without you having requested  to see them, and your answer was yes.  Do you recall that answer?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Today you have given us somewhat detailed telephone calls that you made to various people, requesting them to come and speak to you often concerning the Boipatong and the Sebokeng massacre.  Do you recall that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And I think on your own, without anyone even asking you about this, you mentioned the name of Patience as being one of the persons that you spoke to on one of these telephone conversations?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now which is which now?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The truth is that I did phone Patience.

CHAIRPERSON: Why then did you tell us that the people who came to you, came of their own accord without you having requested them to come and see you?  Why did you tell us that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: (No translation)

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The ANC was being mentioned in this hearing and I only remembered when Mr Berger reminded me.

CHAIRPERSON: It is not correct that people came to see you of their own accord, you requested them, that is what you have told us?  I want to find out from you why did you tell us that they came to you of their own accord when in fact you know that it wasn't correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Since last week, the ANC has been prominent in this hearing and I was intimidated to speak about those calls.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you what?  Yes.  You were afraid because you heard the name of the ANC being mentioned?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you afraid of?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The ANC was being mentioned.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you afraid when the name of the ANC was being mentioned?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was be cause it was alleged that the ANC had planted me or had prompted me to apply for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not understand what you are saying.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The ANC's name was mentioned, therefore I was afraid to admit that Patience was called by me.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not want to disclose the fact that some people from the ANC came to see you, is that what you are saying?  But if Mr Mongezi was an Attorney, that you have told us he was, why were you afraid to mention that he came to see you after you had requested him to come and see you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was assisted by my inmates.

CHAIRPERSON: So you yourself did not telephone Mr Mongezi, is that what you are saying now?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did telephone Mongezi.   That is the - one inmate got in contact with Mongezi.

CHAIRPERSON: So the first person who got in touch with Mongezi, is a fellow prison inmate?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, the inmates I was with at Leeukop.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, and then subsequent to that, you then spoke to Mr Mongezi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what I want to find out is we know that it was one of your fellow prisoners who got in touch with them, why didn't you tell us that a fellow prisoner telephoned Mr Mongezi and as a result of that, I then also spoke to him?  Why didn't you tell us about that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Many people, several people came to me and I therefore do not remember them all.  As Mr Berger was reminding me, he helped me to remember.

CHAIRPERSON: If you had not been reminded that you made those calls, you would not have told us that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I would have not remembered because Mr Berger helped me.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was just because Mr Berger reminded you that you made these phone calls that it then clicked in your mind, yes, indeed, I did make these calls?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: It is not a question of you being afraid?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I was afraid with regards to the ANC being mentioned, it was now alleged that the ANC was now encouraging me or had planted me in these hearings.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR LAX: Can I just check this last thing with you Mr Nosenga, it is just arising out of the last set of questions and is it so therefore that because you were afraid, you wouldn't have mentioned anything about your calls to the ANC?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I had forgotten about that, but I did contact the ANC.

MR LAX: If you had forgotten about it, what was there to be afraid of?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was the mentioning of the ANC that they were the people who had encouraged me or who had planted me in these hearings.

MR LAX: Yes, you are missing the point I am trying to put to you.  If you had forgotten about these calls, you wouldn't have remembered that you had made them and you wouldn't have therefore had a thought in your head, that there was anything to be afraid about mentioning them?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I had forgotten about it, and Mr Berger reminded me about it.

MR LAX: No, I will leave it Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, we understand it has been a very long day for you, you have been on the stand for this, the sixth day.  Thank you, you may return to your seat.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position that we are now crossing to the victims?  Are you calling any more witnesses?  You don't have anyone else to call?

MS TANZER: No, that is my witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, all right.

MR BERGER: No Chairperson, that is not the position, I understood that my learned friend, Mr Strydom, was going to call a witness to prove the minutes of the meeting in Ulundi.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that witness available now?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I have in my possession an affidavit from a person by the surname Duma.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is that?

MR STRYDOM: Duma.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, what are the full names?

MR STRYDOM: The full names are Thamsanqa Oswald Duma, with reference to the Ulundi conference, and I would beg leave to hand in this affidavit.  The next Exhibit number would be AA, if Chairperson is going to accept this.  Chairperson, as indicated only during the course of these hearings, at this stage we do not intend calling any witnesses, but if there is something to rebut, that comes out of the evidence of the victims ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, (indistinct) but at the moment, is that the applicant's case?

MR STRYDOM: That is the applicant's case.