Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: We used numerous personnel to cordon off the area where the ambush should have taken place.

MR JONAS: What role was he playing specifically in.  I understand you have mentioned him earlier?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.  He was one of the Reaction Task Force of the police.

MR JONAS: Was he in the forefront of the Security Branch operations because he belonged to another department, not so?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR JONAS: So was he in the forefront of this operation and the Security Branch, secondary?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I don't think I follow the question absolutely.

MR JONAS: It was a Security Branch operation?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR JONAS: And other departments assisting?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR JONAS: Now, how did it come about that he was in the same vehicle with me when I was shot?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I wouldn't know, I wasn't there when you were shot.

MR JONAS: So you wouldn't not know how he became to be there in the same vehicle and sat on my leg throughout from D.F. Malan airport to Culemborg?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I wouldn't know Mr Jonas.

MR JONAS: I have met one of your former team, the askaris this morning and in fact he confessed to me about you jumping on my leg, on that day.  I met him at a funeral in Pretoria.  Do you still deny?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I deny it, Sir.  I think you are making a mistake between me and Barnard.

MR JONAS: No, no.  I know you.  I know Barnard.  In the past you did testify that I could not walk and I had to be carried in the blanket.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR JONAS: What were your feelings about this helpless, injured person at your mercy?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It was twosome.  I realised your injury, I realised that I had a duty to participate in the removal of your weaponry and once that was removed, I was the one who accompanied you in the ambulance to Woodstock hospital where I was the one who assisted the Radiologist to move you around as peacefully as possible, to get your X-rays taken.

MR JONAS: When you took me on a small car from Culemborg to Khayelitsha and back to Culemborg and kept me for hours.  Did you transport me peacefully?  Did you put me in an ambulance or a comfortable vehicle or did you just throw my leg around in the car, a small car?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I don't think I was in the vehicle that transported you back to Khayelitsha.

MR JONAS: But you took charge immediately I was brought to Culemborg.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I could not take charge Sir, Lieutenant Liebenberg was in command of that operation.

MR JONAS: Yes, but who did the introduction, who welcomed me?  You told me about the weaponry that you want from me on that day, specifically in exact numbers, what you wanted.  Do you still remember?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, I think we even knew the exact numbers we were supposed to get from you.

MR JONAS: Did you know what was in my possession?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Specifically as you said numbers was, no.

MR JONAS: So then did you know that I had weaponry in my possession?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: There was a strong possibility that you had weaponry in your possession.

MR JONAS: But then how do you put it as a precondition that I must take you to get my weaponry if you didn't know what I had?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I can't say that I knew exactly how much you had Mr Jonas.

MR JONAS: Did you know that I had anything, because when I was shot, there was nothing in my possession.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR JONAS: So then how did you put it as a precondition to get something from me, when you did not know what I have?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Mr Jonas, that was our task at that time.  The crux of the matter is that after you took us, as I said I can't remember the exact place Khayelitsha or Guguletu ...

MR JONAS: But you can still remember my combat name?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Military equipment was found.  Could you just tell me if I am correct there or not?

MR JONAS: No, the question I am asking you is how did you put it as a precondition to get something from me of which you do not know whether I have that something in order for me to get treatment?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I don't ...

MR JONAS: You don't get what I say?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am not getting the drift of the question.

MR JONAS: The question if you ...

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have information, did you have information that he is likely to have weapons?

MR JONAS: Because he put it as a precondition ...

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold on.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes Sir.  We knew he was back in Cape Town.  The Intelligence section had already passed on this information to Captain Liebenberg in all probability.  How many specific weaponry there was, I wouldn't know, but he was a trained cadre and I think that the information I am speaking under correction, was that he was the new Commander of the Western Cape machinery.

MR JONAS: If I may ask you another question.  The role that you were playing in my arrest, because initially you have mentioned that you were not there when I was shot and incidentally you came at the same time with me, and you were not in charge of my interrogation, how did it come about then that you were in charge of accompanying me to hospital and the others taking the background and you come to the forefront only when I go to hospital?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Mr Jonas, at that stage, you were an arrested terrorist.  You were under police guard.  Me as a member of the Terrorist Detection Unit, while arrangements were being made for your detention under custody in hospital, I had been tasked to accompany you in the ambulance.

MR JONAS: Was that the only role, to accompany me in an ambulance?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As far as I am concerned, yes.

MR JONAS: Is that the only role that you played?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As far as I am concerned, yes.

MR JONAS: Were you present when I was taken to Khayelitsha?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.

MR JONAS: Were you present?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, as a member of the Anti-terrorist Unit, yes.

MR JONAS: You played no role?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I think I helped in the search of the premises.

MR JONAS: Were you in the foreground or were you in the background?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Foreground, background, I was in the ...

MR JONAS: No, of the operation to Khayelitsha?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It is difficult to say foreground, background, I was part of the operation.

MR JONAS: Who else was there then, who was in charge of the operation?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I would say Lieutenant Liebenberg was the Commander of the operation.

MR JONAS: And then how did it come about that then you become the leading person when you have to take me to hospital?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I was not the leading person that took you to hospital, I was one of the persons that took you to hospital.

MR JONAS: Who else was there in the ambulance with me and you?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I cannot remember.

MR JONAS: Were there more than one person in an ambulance with me or was it only you?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I honestly can't say.

ADV DE JAGER: Did Liebenberg instruct you to take him to the hospital or did you decide to take him to the hospital after ...

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It may have been an instruction, Sir.  This is finer detail that I cannot remember why.

SISI KHAMPEPE: If that is so Mr Benzien, why do you use the word I was tasked to accompany him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Excuse me?

SISI KHAMPEPE: If you were not instructed and it was an act of your own accord to accompany him to the hospital, why do you use the word task, why should you say you were tasked to accompany him to the hospital?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As it happened, my task was to accompany him in the ambulance.  I may not be using the word task in the absolute correct sense, but I was his escort to the hospital.

SISI KHAMPEPE: At whose instruction?