Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-20

CHAIRPERSON: Because I was under the impression that this statement wasn't disputed by your client when he testified, Mr Samuel.

MR SAMUEL: Fine.

MR LAX: It was in fact confirmed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it was in fact confirmed.

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Now what is further very interesting is that the sequence in this statement differs completely from what you told us yesterday.  Here, and I'm referring you to paragraph 44, well actually 43, you mention that the first person was killed by Mr Radebe and the body was left at the Executive Hotel and then you mention Mr Sbu.  Is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That's the way it is written here.

MR HUGO: And then you mention the Kubheka matter, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Now once more you make no mention whatsoever of the first person that was abducted and handed over to the white people at this false roadblock, as you recalled it yesterday, why didn't you mention that in your statement?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It might happen that I mentioned it but it happened.  Maybe it's not written here.

MR HUGO: Now something that was also very interesting is the fact that you mentioned yesterday, for the first time might I add, that the man that was handed over at the roadblock, I think you referred to him as a man that come from Zambia, you assumed was killed, and can you remember what reason you proffered or tendered as to why you thought that he had been killed?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: The reason why I thought that he was killed was because in the morning we were given his watch, his bag and others took his clothes.  That is why I thought that they had killed him.

MR HUGO: Yes.  Can you remember what you testified as to who got the watch?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It was Simon Radebe and I took the bag.

MR HUGO: And the clothes?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Dube took the clothes.

MR HUGO: You see what I find interesting about this is, this was never put to any of the witnesses by your attorney, when did you tell him about this for the first time?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: If I still remember I think I told him yesterday or days before.

CHAIRPERSON: Can't you remember whether you told him yesterday or not?  You say you can't remember whether you told him yesterday or days before, did you tell him yesterday for the first time, or was it before yesterday?  Surely you can remember back to yesterday.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I think it was yesterday.

MR HUGO: Yes, but you see what I find almost totally unacceptable is that Mr Radebe testified yesterday and there was a golden opportunity to put this to Mr Radebe, and it wasn't done, have you got any reason as to why it wasn't done?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't know, I don't have any reason why he was not asked.

MR HUGO: By the way, the clothes, what did Mr Dube do with that?  On your version.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't know what he did with them.

MR HUGO: Do you know whether they would have fitted him?  Weren't they too big or too small for him?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: They would have fitted him.

MR HUGO: And may I just refer you again to Exhibit J, you don't have to read it, but there you refer to a necklace as well, "'n hangertjie", that was given to you as a gift.  Was that also in fact what happened?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't remember about that.

MR HUGO: You didn't mention a "hangertjie" or this necklace?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, I didn't mention any necklace.

MR HUGO: The man that you allege that had been killed by Mr Radebe, on your evidence yesterday this was now the first person handed over to you, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: No, on the evidence yesterday it was the third person.

MR HUGO: The third person, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The third person, yes.

MR HUGO: That's right, Mr Chairman.
	You then said that it was unplanned, but you nevertheless reported this to your seniors, you remember that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, I remember saying that.

MR HUGO: Which seniors was this reported to?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: The white people that were with us there.

MR HUGO: Yes, no but give us names, give us more details.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Botha got that message and Coetzer from Vlakplaas.

MR HUGO: But you know once more, Mr Botha was here to testify and this was never put to him, why wasn't it done?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't know.

MR HUGO: May I just ask you, you're in prison at the moment, aren't you?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR HUGO: Where are you being kept in custody?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Johannesburg prison.

MR HUGO: Yes, and your lawyer, does he also live in Johannesburg?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR HUGO: And I take it you've had ample opportunity to consult properly before this hearing?

MR LAX: Sorry, just a matter of record, Mr Samuel doesn't live in Johannesburg, he's a local attorney.

MR HUGO: Oh I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman.  May I rephrase the question.
	Would you say you've had ample time to prepare properly and to consult with your lawyer?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, the first time I saw him was when I arrived here.

MR HUGO: That was in September last year I think.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR HUGO: But you've had the opportunity to listen to the evidence and from time to time you had instructed him as to what he was going to, what he should say and what he should put to the witnesses?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, I did not have that time.

MR SAMUEL: If I may just place on record at this point time, Mr Chairman, the only occasions we had to consult was when Mr Mbane was here and even during the tea and lunch break we would never have that opportunity, because he had to go and find food and we never proper opportunities to consult.  So in my argument I will raise the points of the discrepancies as to why I did not put certain versions to the witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Samuel.

MR HUGO: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.
	But you see, Mr Mbane, it actually goes further than that, it's not a problem of not having put certain versions, it's a situation where things apparently were put wrongly to some witness, and I'll show you later.
	When Mr Kubheka became suspicious, will you just tell us what ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You mean Ms Kubheka.

MR HUGO: ... Ms Kubheka became suspicious, what gave you the impression that she was becoming suspicious about this particular operation?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: First of all she asked about those three people that she handed over to us, she wanted to see at least one of them and she told us that there are other people who came but she wants to see at least one of those three.

MR HUGO: Yes.  You see I find this very interesting, that's what you testified yesterday as well, that she wanted to enquire about those three people.  Now will you just have a look at the record, the same thing is being referred to on various occasions, just look at page 1768, it's the first paragraph there
"CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL"
I'll just read it to you.
"Mr Botha, Jimmy, my client will say that the reason why you asked for Ntombi to be brought to you was that he had informed you that Ntombi was becoming suspicious about the two persons that had requested him to find safe-houses for and she had always informed him that the Commander of those two persons was in Durban, and he wanted to see them, and this was reported to you by Jimmy."
Do you agree with this?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, I disagree with that.

MR HUGO: Did you hear your attorney putting this to Mr Botha?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I cannot remember.  It might be that he asked him, but I can't remember.