Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-07-01

JEAN DU PLESSIS: I was very shocked.  The Monday afternoon Van Wyk came to the flat, that was the 14th of October.  He came to tell me that White was waiting in the park downstairs, he was a bit too scared, he didn't want to come upstairs, because he thought it was possible that my flat was being watched by the security police and that things had gone terribly wrong.  So I went down to the park in Burgerspark and there I talked with White.  He informed me that things had gone terribly wrong, that there had been a shooting and that three people had died, three people at the house had died.  He also told me that Mrs Roux had been shot dead.  Of course he was shocked. I was also shocked.  In truth I was so shocked, that I couldn't any longer give leadership, not at that moment.  White was angry about that because he had come to seek leadership from me at that stage.

JUDGE WILSON: Did he tell you that he had slit the throats of these people?  Did you know that?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: I found out at some stage that their throats had been slit, but I can't remember if he told me that day.

JUDGE WILSON: But you knew it?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Yes, at a later stage I certainly did know.

UNKNOWN: Mr Du Plessis, did this shocking incident, did that have any effect on you, on your motivation and enthusiasm for going ahead with this organisation?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Well, it wasn't part of my planning, in particular not at that stage, that innocent people should die.  Particularly, that our own people, White people should have died. That I felt was another tragedy. I felt that we would never be able to justify that, to people who were expecting to support us at that stage. I tried to wish it away.  I tried to tell myself that this was the fate of war, but it upset me terribly.  Naturally I became very concerned, and I couldn't give as a strong a leadership as I wanted to.

UNKNOWN: Weren't you concerned that White could perhaps become uncontrollable?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: I had known him since Defence Force days and I knew that he could become terribly angry, but I felt that I would do everything in my power to keep him under control. I thought that he was becoming too radical, too desperate to achieve our aims, and that he was beginning to lose his objectivity.  I also felt that he should take as little part as possible personally in military operations. He should be involved in the planning, but not so much his own personal involvement. As a result of our particular situation we were obliged to carry out further operations as a group.

UNKNOWN: Let's continue a little more quickly. What was the operation at Potchefstroom where you broke in and attempted at one stage and another you did steal weapons. Did you take part in both operations?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Yes, I was part of the reconnaissance at Oudsthoorn, because I knew the base myself and I was with White.  I also participated in the planning of the operation and then we broke in there.  Of course, we found no arms because they had been moved.  We then retreated. At a later stage at the Potchefstroom military base, I and Van Wyk did the reconnaissance.  Then I left White and Grobbelaar at the holiday resort which we were using as a temporary base.  White and I did the planning of that as well.  We broke in there and there we did find quite a quantity of ammunition and explosives.

UNKNOWN: And the ease of which you carried out this operation, did that surprise you at all?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Well, I thought that military security was very poor, but I was familiar with that. Oudsthoorn military base, their security was better than Potchefstroom, because it was a more prepared base, a more alert base, but I felt that operations of that kind with good planning, good clandestine execution were possible and would be possible in any military base.

UNKNOWN: Just one last question before the tea break.  What made you decide to continue with your limited weaponry, to continue with this breaking-in?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: After the death of the three people at Louis Trichardt, we felt that we had gone beyond the point of no return.  People had been killed.  The police were after us and we couldn't turn round, we had to go ahead at all costs. Even if it meant that we were placing ourselves and the organisation in the greatest of danger, we had no choice.  To achieve our goals, we had to continue.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much.  Chairperson, I understand it is time for tea at this stage. I have been advised.

HASSAN MALL: Yes, we will take a short adjournment at this stage. Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

JEAN DU PLESSIS: (Still under oath).

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, my colleague has a request.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I just want to request that I sit there, it would give my colleagues more space to work, while I am not busy with the cross-examination or anything.

HASSAN MALL: Certainly.

UNKNOWN: (cont): Thank you, Mr Chairman, sorry for the delay. Mr Du Plessis, just before we proceed to Wahlmanstal.  The envisaged attack or robbery at the shebeen in Durban, in that connection, did you contemplate any other operation in Durban?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: At that stage we contemplated removing weapons from the guards at Natal Command.  But things just felt wrong to me then and we dropped the idea.

UNKNOWN: Who took that decision?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Again, I had made that decision. It was too dangerous at that stage to confront people directly. Because really we didn't have time to do proper planning for that operation.

UNKNOWN: Was that a kind of spur of the moment suggestion?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Yes, it was proposed on the spur of the moment.

UNKNOWN: Briefly, tell us about the robbery at Wahlmanstal?  What was the motivation there and who planned it?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: After we had got the ammunition and rifle grenades, and weapons of that kind, we needed R4 rifles so that we could use the ammunition we had and also to be able to operate the rifle grenades and things of that kind.  So then we decided that would have to acquire some automatic weapons and rather quickly, so that we would be able to go on our next operation, which was to steal money.

UNKNOWN: These two guards, just for the record, were they injured in any way, these two guards who were robbed?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: One guard, one sentry was apparently lightly injured, he was admitted, he was taken to hospital but was discharged that same evening.

UNKNOWN: How was he injured?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Apparently he had an injury on his hand and I think his lip was also hurt.

UNKNOWN: Was this from physical blows?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Yes, there was a fight, a scrap when we went in.  It was all dark and confused, I am a little hazy about it.  I and Grobbelaar went into the base, White waited across the road and Van Wyk was driving the car. I went in, I squirted the canister of Mace at them.  Then the one sentry launched himself at me, I saw the sentry behind him was reaching for his R4. I wasn't particularly concerned about the sentry who was running for the door behind me, so I let him pass, hoping that Grobbelaar would be able to stop him.  I was more concerned about the sentry with the R4.  So I tried to squirt the can of Mace into his eyes.  Then we came to blows.  He struck me with the R4, and then we were fighting. I think we were tumbling over the beds and the cupboards and in the course of that struggle, I tried to hit him with my fist. I think it was then that his lip was injured.  Grobbelaar then came in.  We tried to take the R4 away from the sentry, and I can't remember if Grobbelaar hit  him or kicked him on the hand. I think at some stage his hand, he tried to put his hand against the tent pole to loosen the grip on the rifle.

UNKNOWN: So the guards didn't come succumb as quickly as you had expected?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Yes, there was much more of a fight than we had expected.