Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-21

MR MALAN: Yes, that is right, the house was burning, then you divided into different groups, you decided you would go looking for the people?
MR R.B. CELE: I would explain it this way.  When we arrived to Mr Cele's home, they came out of the house, fleeing.  Some people from our group, remained and burnt the house whilst others chased after the people who had been running away.

MR MALAN: Okay, did you remain behind or did you chase at that stage?
MR R.B. CELE: I was amongst the people who had been chasing the group.

MR MALAN: Was the house already burning then when you made chase?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes, the house was burning at the time.

MR MALAN: So clearly you stopped at the house and the house was set alight, you were there when the house was set alight?
MR R.B. CELE: There was no time to stop.  Everything happened quickly, there would have been no time to stop.  When we reached the yard, others started burning the house, others chasing after these people.

MR MALAN: Yes, but please Mr Cele, I am asking you about your movements, did you stop at the house or did you run passed the house?
MR R.B. CELE: I ran passed the house.

MR MALAN: So you weren't divided into groups, you just ran, you followed somebody that was running away, nobody divided you into a group?
MR R.B. CELE: No, we were not divided into groups, but people just ran after those individuals, there was no person who was dividing us into groups.

MR MALAN: Yes, and if I hear you correctly, you were pursuing Bonny?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Did you see him?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes, I did.  I knew what clothing he had on.

MR MALAN: And he outran you?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Was anybody else with you pursuing him, or were you on your own?
MR R.B. CELE: There were many people.

MR MALAN: And he outran all of you?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes, he did.

MR MALAN: Okay.  Then you were pursuing Bonny and Thulani gave us evidence that he was pursuing Dudu.
MR R.B. CELE: He must have been amongst that group who were chasing after Dudu.

MR MALAN: Yes, now I want to know who pursued the other members, did you see any of the other members of this group that were sjamboked, that you ordered out of the area?
MR R.B. CELE: They ran in different directions, I did not see what was going on with regards to the others.  I was just chasing after this person.

MR MALAN: You saw a lot of people running in different directions, my question is did you see any of those specific members?  Those individuals that you had just ordered out of the area?  I am telling you why I am asking this, I find it very difficult to understand that these seven individuals plus two women, are being sjamboked, they are being ordered out of the area, then they leave, they ask for permission to just pick up their belongings at Amos Cele's house, which they are granted, from where they are to leave the area.  Nobody escorts them, they just leave.  At that stage, a decision is taken to fetch Dudu, people go down to Dudu's place, back up the hill, there is again a tribunal, a decision that she be lashed 200 cuts, there is a long queue, then Dudu goes back and she is ordered out of the area, then the kombi arrives.  Now really some time must have lapsed by now and you are telling me that all the people are still in Amos Cele's house?  I find it very difficult to understand, especially also because those pursued were only Dudu and Bonny, that we have direct evidence of, people involved in the pursuit.  Also in terms of the criminal trial, we have the evidence on record of Ernest that he had earlier left by bus, having been ordered out of the area.  I am asking you again, did you see Ernest running from Amos Cele's house with Dudu and Bonny?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes, I did see him.

MR MALAN: Who else did you see, did you see all of them running out of the house?
MR R.B. CELE: There were many of them who came out of the house and they scattered in different directions.  They had not as yet gone to board the bus, I am not certain whether they had been waiting for Dudu or not and as I explained before, it was just after Dudu had been sjamboked that these comrades arrived from Amadiqwe.

MR MALAN: Okay, I don't think I am going to get more clarity, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Mr Molohlanye.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.   Mr Cele, as I did earlier, can you please tell this Committee what happened on the 28th of December 1989?
MR R.B. CELE: On the 28th of December, because there had been survivals of the incident of the 25th, no one felt safe.  We did not sleep at our homes.   My family had left, I was the only person remaining.   On that evening, it was already dark, I heard people approaching my home.  I assumed that they must be comrades because we were at that time patrolling the area because of the situation.   Before I could communicate or contact these people, I heard gunshots.  I was standing, leaning against a big tree. When I heard these gunshots I returned fire, because I had a firearm in my possession.  Immediately thereafter comrades from the area came, wanting to know what was going on.   When they enquired I informed them that there were people who had just fired shots at me and they were chased.  As explained before, it was dark, we chased  after these people and managed to get hold of just one of them.  Myself and Bongani then shot this person and thereafter we dispersed.  On the following day, it was discovered that Amos Cele had been amongst that group of people.  In fact it was Amos Cele who had been shot.

MR MOLOHLANYE: After that incident, what happened?  Sorry to interrupt, you mentioned that you pursued these people and one of them tried to hide himself.   What did you do to this person, you said we shot him.  Did you take any part in the actual shooting of the person?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes, I did shoot at that person.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  It was  a singular not a plural, that he shot at the person?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.  Can you please tell us what happened after that incident?
MR R.B. CELE: After the incident on the 28th?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes?
MR R.B. CELE: After that person had been shot, the Police had been looking for me and I was arrested in January, I think it was on the 16th of January.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Mr Cele, I have no further questions as far as your statement.

CHAIRPERSON: You must thank us, not thank your witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLOHLANYE

ADV DE JAGER: Just enquire, Mr Amos Cele, how old was he?
MR R.B. CELE: I cannot be certain.

ADV DE JAGER: Is he a family of yours?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Your grandfather?
MR R.B. CELE: My father.

ADV DE JAGER: Your father?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And you have no idea how old he was, was he a man in the 70's already or what age roundabout?
MR R.B. CELE: He might have been around 65 or 50 something, I am not sure.

ADV DE JAGER: So you in fact killed your own father?
MR R.B. CELE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you realise it at any time before the next day, while chasing the people, did you realise that you were chasing your father?
MR R.B. CELE: No, it was too dark, because it was in the evening.  We were just chasing the people who were attacking me at home, therefore I didn't see as to who they were.

ADV DE JAGER: Those people attacking you at your home, you didn't know who it was, whether it was criminals or whether they were politically related?
MR R.B. CELE: I knew that there were political violence or conflict in the nearby areas, therefore we stayed knowing very well that we were going to be attacked any time, we just didn't know when.  Therefore we stayed, knowing very well or armed that in case it happened that we are being attacked, we defend ourselves.