Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

MR SHONGWE: I took part.

UNKNOWN: In which group were you?

CHAIRPERSON: Well shouldn't he tell us what role, if any, he played in the abduction?

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chair.   What role did you play in this case?

MR SHONGWE: The role I played, I arrived in the morning.

UNKNOWN: The day of the massacre or before?

MR SHONGWE: On the 7th, in the morning before they were killed.   I arrived there, I found Rooivark, he was getting these youths.

UNKNOWN: You say you arrived there, where is that, where did you arrive?

MR SHONGWE: At F, block F, that is block F.

UNKNOWN: What was going on there when you arrived?

MR SHONGWE: I found this person guarding this youth.   We left at night because we were going to work.

UNKNOWN: Don't rise.   Who is this person you found guarding the youth?

MR SHONGWE: Rooivark, Kenny.

UNKNOWN: Is he here amongst the applicants?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, he is present.

UNKNOWN: Armoed?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, that's Armoed.

UNKNOWN: You found him guarding the youth in the shack?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, that's correct.    He gave me a gun, he said I should keep an eye, he was going to the toilet.

UNKNOWN: What kind of a gun did he give you?

MR SHONGWE: AK47 rifle.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: I kept guard.   Ramabele arrived with other boys, and they were also taken into the shack.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: An order was issued out by Mr Mchebe, he was our commander of the SDU, he said because they were complaining saying the previous night ...(intervention).

UNKNOWN: Just slower please.   What did Dondolo say?

MR SHONGWE: Dondolo said, in the shack they communicated and they said one of them who was present the previous night is not among them.   He pointed three people, they appointed three people to go and fetch him.

UNKNOWN: Who is this person who implicated other, who spoke there in the shack, saying one of them was not there?

MR SHONGWE: These captured boys.   One of them is Mtabang, Mtabang was in the shack.

UNKNOWN: I say the person who spoke so that you left to get more, who is that person?

MR SHONGWE: It's our commander, Dondolo, who gave us an instruction.

UNKNOWN: No, you say one of the captured implicated others so that you left to get them, I'm asking who is that person who spoke amongst the captured?

MR SHONGWE: It's Mtabang.

UNKNOWN: Whom did he mention?

MR SHONGWE: He said Mavuso was also present the previous night.

UNKNOWN: Who else did Mtabang mention?

MR SHONGWE: He mentioned Mavuso only.

UNKNOWN: Did he say what Mavuso and them had done?

MR SHONGWE: He said they were present when Bulelwa and Blanko were killed.

UNKNOWN: And then you say Dondolo told you to go and get those?

MR SHONGWE: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Who were you going to get?

MR SHONGWE: Mavuso.

UNKNOWN: Who else?

MR SHONGWE: We only fetched Mavuso.

UNKNOWN: Did you go and get Mavuso?

MR SHONGWE: Yes.   We left with other comrades, we were three in all.

UNKNOWN: Where did you go to?

MR SHONGWE: We went to block D.

UNKNOWN: Did you find Mavuso?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, we found him.

UNKNOWN: Did he have anything in his possession?

MR SHONGWE: No sir, he didn't have anything.

UNKNOWN: Did you take him back to the shack?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, we asked permission from his mother, and the mother agreed.

UNKNOWN: After he was released by his mother, did you question him on the way?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, on the way we asked him questions.

UNKNOWN: Did he tell you anything, and what was it?

MR SHONGWE: He told us that he was present when Blanko and Bulelwa were killed.

UNKNOWN: Who was with you?

MR SHONGWE: Myself, Lefu ...(intervention).

UNKNOWN: Patrick Mokoena.

MR SHONGWE: Yes, that's correct.

UNKNOWN: Who was the third person?

MR SHONGWE: Themba.

UNKNOWN: Themba Mtshali?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, that's correct.

UNKNOWN: Were you armed when you went to (indistinct)?

MR SHONGWE: We were not armed.

UNKNOWN: What did you say to Mavuso's mother?

MR SHONGWE: We said the commander wanted him.

UNKNOWN: Did you tell her why the commander wanted him?

MR SHONGWE: No, we did not tell her.

UNKNOWN: Did you know why the commander wanted him?

MR SHONGWE: I did not know, but I was aware that his name had been mentioned that the was present when Bulelwa was killed.   Now that must have been the reason why the  commander wanted him.

UNKNOWN: Yes.   Is there any reason why you did not disclose that to his parents?

MR SHONGWE: There was no reason, sir.

UNKNOWN: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you do, Mr Mabasa, did Mavuso's mother know who the commander was?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, she knew.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Madasa.

UNKNOWN: Right.   Did you extract any further information, besides the admission of Bulelwa and Blanko killing, did Mavuso tell you anything else?

MR SHONGWE: No, there was nothing else he told us.

UNKNOWN: Carry on.

MR SHONGWE: When he arrived at the shack and he discovered that here are some of my peers ...(intervention).

UNKNOWN: What did he do or say when he saw his friends?

MR SHONGWE: They started arguing, saying, "You pointed me out", and then the other one was saying, "No, I didn't, you identified me".

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: He was also put into the shack and they carried on arguing among themselves.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: Mr Mchebe gave me a 9mm shotgun.

UNKNOWN: Why did he give you?

MR SHONGWE: He said we should drive them to another shack, we were supposed to remove them from a scene where Bulelwa was lying.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought at that stage they were already in a shack?   Were you going to remove them from that shack and put them into some other shack?

MR SHONGWE: They were at a place where Bulelwa had been shot, next to a shack, they were not yet tied up at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but then were they inside a shack?

MR SHONGWE: They were inside a shack, but not yet tied.

CHAIRPERSON: So they were now going to be removed from this shack to some other shack?

MR SHONGWE: You are correct.

UNKNOWN: This other shack where they were eventually taken into, in which block was that one?   Was it the same area, (indistinct) block?

MR SHONGWE: It was in the same area, but next to the veld.

UNKNOWN: Were you told why they were taken to that other shack?

MR SHONGWE: No, we were not told.

UNKNOWN: Yes, then you took them to the shack next to the forest, and then what happened?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, we drove them to that other shack, they were walking freely, but guarded on all sides, and when we arrived there, they were put into a shack.

UNKNOWN: Yes.   How many were there?

MR SHONGWE: Myself and Mtabang and some of the comrades remained outside while the others went into the shack.

UNKNOWN: How many were they as they were being driven to this other shack?

MR SHONGWE: I do not remember well how many they were, but they might have been 11, 8, 9 to 11.

UNKNOWN: Was Bulelwa Zwane and Julia Buthelezi amongst them?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you asking him whether Bulelwa Zwane was amongst these persons?

UNKNOWN: I know, Mr Chair, that, I know that they were not amongst, I just want it for the record, to ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: But we know that Bulelwa was dead at that stage.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chair.   Right, so you arrived there at the second shack.   You and Mtabang remained outside.   Yes, take us from there, what happened?

MR SHONGWE: We asked Mtabang why they killed Blanko and Bulelwa.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: Mtabang told me something, he said, "We're going to steadily but surely hit you".

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: And he told me those words before this incident, and then I said to him, "Mtabang, in other words you were right when you told me that you were going to hit us?", he said, "Yes, we were actually aiming at all the members of the SDU".

UNKNOWN: Yes?