Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-03

ADV VISSER: On this last point, according to the way you understood your orders and instructions in the police, if you were to find yourself in a conflict situation and people fired at you and there was a senior Officer present, were you obliged to wait for him to give an order or could you fire immediately to protect yourself?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: No, I would think that I would certainly not endanger my own life by waiting for an order from a senior Officer if I could clearly see that I could also be shot dead.

ADV VISSER: Was this the case according to you on that particular day?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you think you were in any danger of being shot dead in the casspir?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Well, Chairperson, it is the first time I was involved in such a situation, it could have happened that I could have been shot dead and I answered fire.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you really think that, sir that you were in danger of being shot dead in the casspir?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Perhaps I can take it a little bit wider.  Our colleagues outside didn't have much shelter.  Obviously I would have felt a little bit  more protected if some of my colleagues who were in the river bed ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, now that is a different matter altogether, I am asking you about your answer to Mr Visser's question was that you feared for your own life, you felt your life was in danger in the casspir.
	I understand if you wanted to protect your colleagues who weren't in the shelter of the shelter?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes, I just want to say that their lives were actually more threatened than mine, but as far as I was concerned, I had to lift myself outside of this hatch, the casspir hatch to shoot.
	I could also have been hit without any doubt.

CHAIRPERSON: But the reason why you would emerge from the casspir was to shoot?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions to ask?

ADV VISSER: I have no further questions, Chairperson.

ADV VISSER: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fuchs, thank you.

MR BLACK: It may be a convenient time, perhaps seeing that we started on time at nine o'clock this morning, to steal five minutes and add it onto our tea today Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And shall we try to start at the latest half past eleven?

MR BLACK: Half past?

COMMISSION ADJOURNS FOR TEA - ON RESUMPTION: ;

CHAIRPERSON: I thought I wanted to ask Colonel Erwee something.

ADV VISSER: He is available Mr Chairman.  Would you like to have him recalled?

CHAIRPERSON: I thought that Mr Fuchs would still be here and then I would ask a question to him, but ...

ADV VISSER: Do you want Mr Fuchs as well?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.

ADV VISSER: Yes, Mr Fuchs, could you just come forward for a while.

CHAIRPERSON: Colonel, you can be excused for a while, we just want to finish with Mr Fuchs and then we will ask you something.
	I hope the record is not confused now.  We are in fact now proceeding with Mr Fuchs.

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: When you fired from the casspir, you used your pistol?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were interviewing the deceased, were you having your pistol with you?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: Yes, it was  next to me, I had it with me.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the pistol which presumably Mr Sehlwana says you used but we all know now, that you say you did not use it to shoot the deceased?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: It is the same pistol Chairperson.

MR BLACK: ... to ask this witness some information, can be during tea time.  I won't be a minute.

CHAIRPERSON: Why wasn't it asked ...

MR BLACK: I was only just during the tea interval, approached by one of the investigating officers.  I just want to find out from this witness that in the event of ...

CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead and formulate it properly.

MR BLACK: Thank you.  Mr Fuchs, would you be able to identify the person whom you interviewed or questioned, the wounded man on photographs of that person?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: After eleven years I will take a chance, but I wouldn't be able to say that I could positively identify him.

MR BLACK: We may need to show you certain photographs later once I have them in my possession and perhaps you could assist them.  Okay, thank you.

MR BLACK: .

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we are taking advantage of your presence there Mr Fuchs.  When you heard somebody say they are shooting at us, in what language was that?

PAUL PHILLIPUS FRANCOIS FUCHS: That was in Afrikaans Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you want Erwee?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry to recall you, but you were the person in command that morning, so you have to answer more questions.

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: No, I accept that Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ... your application and I just want to have this cleared with you, I won't ask other people, I will ask you because they all support your application.
	I would like you to explain to us, you know, what you want to convey by using the word elimination?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: Chairperson, the word elimination, what I mean by that is the shooting dead or killing of six ANC MK members on the Breslau/Alldays road, further more the amnesty for any delict or offence based on involvement in this, which includes the inquest docket and possible obstruction of the course of justice.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I am not so sure whether you understand what my concern was.  You see we have heard evidence from many of your colleagues, or former colleagues and would suggested that perhaps you should say so and say well, I didn't mean it in that context?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: What my intention is, is to state what our instructions were, to arrest but if do fire, we would also fire and then to shoot to kill and then death would then mean the elimination of the insurgents who fired at us, that is what it means, the killing of the six ANC MK members, should they resist arrest by means of firing at us.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you see if you had just used that simple Afrikaans words, I am sure I wouldn't have called you back to come and explain anything, it is just that you had used a certain word.  Thank you very much.  Mr Visser, did you want to ...

ADV VISSER: No, Mr Chairman, I was going to suggest that you should call my Attorney because it is his word choice.

CHAIRPERSON: I think he attended our hearings just too much.  You are excused.