Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-03

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: As I understand there was another facility which has been broken down, which was on the other side of the verandah.

MR SAMUEL: No such facility was pointed out.  Sir, I put it to you that it would have been more convenient and in fact, the only place for a person to sleep is either on the verandah of the building where Ms Khubeka was held, or in one of the rooms if same was available?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I should imagine sleeping in the kombi would have probably been more comfortable.

MR SAMUEL: I didn't get your answer, sir.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I should imagine sleeping in the kombi, would have been even more comfortable than on the cement.

MR SAMUEL: But it is possible that members could use that area to sleep in?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: It is possible, Mr Chairman.  They could sleep anywhere.

MR SAMUEL: Sir, I refer to your affidavit, did you know who removed the body, sir?  Did Capt Botha tell you who he instructed to remove the body?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No, Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: So you had no idea that Mr Wasserman and Mr du Preez had removed the body?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman, I heard that here.

MR SAMUEL: How did you know that it was Capt Botha who decided that her body should be removed and placed elsewhere?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Because Capt Botha informed me of the fact that he had decided that the body should be removed and placed elsewhere.

MR SAMUEL: Sir, Jimmy Mbane will say, sorry before I put Mr Jimmy Mbane's version to you, did you notice whether Ms Khubeka was tied by her hands and her feet or her hands and her feet were tied?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: Sir, Mr Jimmy Mbane will say that on instructions from either Mr Botha or Mr Taylor, he had handed over Ms Khubeka to them at the Battery Beach, which you would not know about?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman, I don't know what his instructions were.

MR SAMUEL: He will say that whilst he was at the base at Winkelspruit, he had noticed Ms Khubeka blindfolded, tied, both hands and feet?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I cannot comment on that Mr Chairman, I do not recollect.

MR SAMUEL: He will say that whilst he was at the base, the only place he could sleep and he slept for the night, was on the verandah next to the room where Ms Khubeka was being held and interrogated?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I dispute that, it could have been in the kombi, and they did, they were instructed to leave the base that night and go and sleep at C.R. Swart Square.

MR SAMUEL: Sir, he will say that whilst he was at the base, he had heard Ms Khubeka scream almost continuously because she was in his words, interrogated and tortured.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I cannot comment on that, I heard a couple of shouts and I was only there for a very short while.

MR SAMUEL: Your evidence is that Mr Myeza was not present at the base when you got there?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Jimmy Mbane will say that Mr Myeza, Mr  Lauwrie and Mr Coetzer in fact had removed this body from the base?

CHAIRPERSON: Lauwrie, I think he is referring to Mr Wasserman?

MR SAMUEL: Mr Wasserman, Lauwrie Wasserman I think.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I don't know who removed the body from the base, I heard it here.

MR SAMUEL: Sir, if Mr Taylor had made any payments to the askaris, would you have known about it?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I don't think Mr Taylor would have made payments to the askaris.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, if he had, would you know about it or would you expect to have been informed?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I should have known about it, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.  Did Mr Taylor tell you of all payments that he made to askaris?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, the askaris did not fall under Mr Taylor for administrative purposes and payments made to askaris, it would be made by Head Office, not by Mr Taylor.

MR SAMUEL: So you would not know if Mr Taylor had paid the askaris, am I right, if he did not inform you about it?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: If he hadn't informed me about it, I assume he wouldn't have done it.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it have been irregular for him to have paid them?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you say that?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, applications for rewards would have to be made to Head Office and it would be highly irregular for Port Natal to ask for a reward for a person who is in any case based at Head Office.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether Mr Mbane was in fact paid for the part he played in this operation, the normal, we have heard often about the rewards, was Mr Mbane paid for the part he played?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I am not sure, I cannot give a positive or negative, he could have been paid, he could not have been paid, I am not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it be possible, if he was paid, that the payment, although it came from your section, C-Section, Head Office, that it could have been affected by Mr Taylor?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That he could have made a recommendation?

CHAIRPERSON: No, that he could have paid it for you?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I doubt Mr Chairman, because the people were removed back to Pretoria two days after the operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: Mr Mbane will deny that he slept at C.R. Swart Dog Unit on that evening.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, the instruction was that they should sleep there, and they weren't there the next morning.

MR SAMUEL: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I think this would be a convenient time to take the tea adjournment, Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson, I would like to make a request that the applicant who is testifying presently, sit across there, I do find it difficult to cross-examine without having sight of the witness.  I don't think that will inconvenience anybody too much.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think we can do this, it is not unreasonable.  If we can just make the arrangements during the tea interval.  Thank you, we will take the short tea adjournment until half past eleven.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
C. BAKER: (s.u.o.)

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Baker, you counsel tells us that your affidavit that appears, your second affidavit that appears at the back of Bundle 2, is an improved version on the application that commences at page 91 of the first Bundle.  I have had an opportunity to peruse these two and it appears to me that the only improvement that I can see is the fact that the second one is signed in 1999, is that correct, and the first one is unsigned?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: So they are identical apart from the fact that the latter application is signed in 1999, on the 22nd of June 1999, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, are you saying that the one in Volume 1 is signed on the 5th of May 1997?

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, sorry, my copy that I got from the TRC is not signed.  I've got ...

CHAIRPERSON: My copy is on page 120, it is signed the 5th of May 1997, signed at Pretoria Central.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is not my application Mr chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, isn't it, sorry.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, it is in fact signed on page 112, I am misleading the witness slightly, but it isn't commissioned.

CHAIRPERSON: It is dated, it is not commissioned, yes.  That is improved in that respect?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, maybe I must just assist here to make it clearer for Mr Wills.   This, I don't know how this copy landed in the hands of the TRC because quite clearly you can see, we were still improving on it, I don't know how it got to the TRC, but this was something that was compiled during 1997 and then the subsequent application was then signed and commissioned on the 22nd day of June 1999.