Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-23

MR MOLOHLANYE: My apologies, I thought maybe he said the house which Mavundla was found was the IFP camp.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngcobo, there are quite a number of camps used by the IFP to your knowledge?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I knew of two.

CHAIRPERSON: Now which ones were those?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: That was, one was the one where Mavundla came from, one was next to an Indian school.

CHAIRPERSON: Now in your affidavit you state that on arrival at this house where Mr Mavundla was you made certain enquiries and one of those enquiries was to make enquiries about the whereabouts of one Mpemba and Henry.  Who were those people?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Those were IFP leaders, important IFP leaders.

CHAIRPERSON: What position did they hold within the IFP in that area?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Mpemba was the chairperson of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and Henry?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Henry was an activist in IFP, I don't know what position he held.

CHAIRPERSON: So he was a prominent member of the IFP?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You may proceed to lead your further evidence Mr Molohlanye.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Honourable Chair.
	To go back a little, you said you were a commander.  On the day did you instruct any one to accompany you to go to IFP area?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Yes I did instruct two people.

MR MOLOHLANYE: May you please give the names to the Committee?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Phazimani Ncishane and Myboy Mavuso.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Will you please give us the reasons why out of the number of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What was his instruction to Myboy and Ncishane?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I said we should go to the IFP camps, that is where these IFP people launched their attacks from.

CHAIRPERSON: What specifically were they to do at the IFP camp?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: They could do nothing else except to attack and kill off everyone there because the IFP did not want us in that area.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed Mr Molohlanye.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.
	After you - oh, before I go to that.  Why out of a number of people, ANC supporters in an ANC area you only chose two people?

CHAIRPERSON: What are you saying?

MR MOLOHLANYE: I want to get the knowledge what made him to only choose two people to launch an attack on an area of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed to respond Mr Ngcobo.

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: The reason was that it would be problematic to take along a large number of people because we may face problems when we had to flee from the area.

MR MOLOHLANYE: You left the area after Mavundla, after you left Mavundla, was he dead when you left him?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: From what I could see he was already dead because thereafter a hearse approached.

MR MOLOHLANYE: You then left the - you ran away and you met at your ANC area.   According to your affidavit, I won't lead you on that, that you went to another camp.  How did you kill Mr Cele and why?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Mr Cele was killed on the way to the other camp.  The camp next to the Indian school because we had been in our attack on the other one.  Mr Cele was in the company of somebody else called Mandla.

MR MALAN: Would this be Mandla Zondo.

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: It is possible but I do not know his surname, I just heard that he was Mandla.

MR MALAN: Do you know anyone else by the name of Zondo who gave evidence at your trial?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: No, I do not remember.

MR MALAN: Did Mandla give evidence at your trial?

MR MALAN: Yes I did see him in court.  It was only then that I realised that he was the person they were referring to as Mandla because I did not know him before.

MR MOLOHLANYE: After you - oh, how did you kill Mr ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Sorry, just as to the location as to where this happened.  Was this still on your way to the camp next to the Indian school, the killing of Cele, the attack on Cele and Mandla?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Yes.

MR MALAN: It wasn't in the camp?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: We had not reached the camp by then.

MR MALAN: Right then just again to make doubly sure on the other one, Mr Mavundla, he was also not killed in the camp, he was killed outside the camp, in a house, or outside of the house, but not in the camp.  Is that your evidence?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Yes.

MR MALAN: So although your initial instruction was to move into the two camps and attack IFP, you killed both of the people outside of the camps, not in the IFP camps in the area?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Yes.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: But just to be clear on that, you found Mr Mavundla inside the camp?  He was on the bed, he was sitting on the bed?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: He was in another house not the camp.

CHAIRPERSON: He was not in the camp, he was not in the house which you thought was an IFP camp?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So why did you get into that particular house?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: The reason is that we had seen Mavundla coming from the camp and then I instructed the two to stand on the road whilst I go and enquire from Mavundla where Mpemba was because he was the one person that we were looking for.

MR MOLOHLANYE: May I proceed Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry about that, you may proceed.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you.
	In your affidavit you say Mr Cele tried to run away and you caught up with him and you shot at him.  Who do you refer to, who are you referring to?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Mr Cele was not successful in running away, the person who managed to escape was Mandla whom I did not know at the time.

MR MOLOHLANYE: My question is by you saying that you caught up with him and you shot at him, I want to know who shot him?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Myboy first shot at him then I fired thereafter.

MR MALAN: Sorry, did you instruct Myboy to shoot at him or did he shoot of his own at that stage?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Our intention was that we would attack anyone found in the IFP area because we as ANC members were not allowed, we could not walk freely in that area.

MR MALAN: Yes but there's no evidence that you shot Mr Cele, you saw him walking with Mandla and then Myboy shot him, you didn't have a discussion with him, you didn't know whether he was IFP, it wasn't in the camp, it was on the way to the camp near the Indian school?  Isn't that so?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: We did not discuss it but our belief was that any person found on that IFP area was an IFP member because if they also found any of our members, anybody walking in their area they would kill them.

MR MALAN: Now back to my earlier question, did you say to Myboy and to Mr Ncishane, "whenever you see anyone in that area shoot them", or did you say "I'm taking control, I'll tell you who to shoot, I'm your commander."?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I ordered them to kill anyone in the IFP area.

MR MALAN: So the only people that you met up with walking in that IFP area, was that Mr Mavundla and his wife and Cele and Mandla, didn't you see anyone else?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: We did not meet anyone else besides those.

MR MALAN: You didn't see any other person, you didn't see any other person in that area in broad daylight, is that your evidence?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: I do not remember.

MR MALAN: And why did you rob both of them if your intention was to go and tell.  You didn't tell them in advance you would be robbing them or did you?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: With regards to Mavundla I did explain that the intention was to buy ammunition because we were short of ammunition to be able to defend ourselves when they launched their attacks.  Secondly, with regards to Cele, he had been carrying a firearm, something that we needed and we were short of.  We need a firearm to protect ourselves during attacks.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you in fact buy ammunition?

THEMBA MSHINI NGCOBO: Yes I did buy ammunition.

ADV DE JAGER: Where did you buy it?