Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-26

MR LAMEY: Your information from the informer and I am speaking of the second incident, I am representing Mr Nortje who was only involved in the second incident, your information was that the persons who were going to infiltrate would be armed?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes.

MR LAMEY: And for that reason there was an expectation that they had to be shot at in an ambush?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, we set up the ambush.

MR LAMEY: You have already testified about this, but there was a real danger when it came to the loss of life on the Security Police side if under those circumstances they would have attempted a normal arrest.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Mr Nortje confirms what you say and that is that after the shooting the weapons which had been cocked were found.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Another aspect, do I understand your evidence correctly that you concede that the shot may possibly have been fired by the person who climbed out of the left of the minibus after de Kock had fired a shot?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: It is very difficult to say after the time.  We are speaking here of split seconds but what I recall is that I watched this man and that I saw the fire in his weapon when the shooting began.  An AK makes a much greater noise than a 9mm uzzi and as I've said, I watched the person and not Col de Kock.

MR LAMEY: Very well because Mr Nortje says that he was practically next to de Kock and his recollection is that the person climbed out of the vehicle with the weapon, but that de Kock shot him before he could shoot de Kock.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct, or possible.  As I've said, everything happened very quickly.

MR LAMEY: Then just another aspect.  Was one of the reasons to eliminate the members on the Swaziland side, when Tait and Ras went there, also to protect your informer?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, that was one of the reasons, but we also realised that the infiltration would definitely stop there, seeing as the media would be notified of the incidents and Head Office would no longer keep it back.  The persons who were actually responsible for the infiltration would then have gotten away.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, Mr Lamey.  Mr Pienaar, had you up to this point been able to avoid publicising the first shooting?  Had the media not gotten hold of that yet?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: The first incident was not reported.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon, Mr Pienaar, when was the second incident reported?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I think it was the day after the incident, I'm not certain of the exact date, it may have been two days afterwards because there was an incorrect report which was given to the media that the persons had used a stolen vehicle and that was never said by any one of us to Head Office.

MR MALAN: So the first announcement was not by Mr Vlok in Parliament?  Was there anything before that?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: It was publicised after the second incident.

MR MALAN: Before Minister Vlok said anything about it in Parliament?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I don't know when he said anything about it, I don't know whether these incidents ran concurrently.  I don't have any documentary proof before me now but I think that it was considerably later, somewhere near the 20th of the month, or something like that.

MR MALAN: But then the media must have had the information before Mr de Kock announced it, but they did not make it known?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No.

MR LAMEY: Was there a person on the Swazi side who had to be eliminated, who was a very important liaison person with your informer?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes.  The informer arranged for the vehicles to transport people and it was done by the person who was in Swaziland.

MR LAMEY: Very well.  The person on the Swaziland side who allowed the MK members to infiltrate would probably, after the second incident have put two and two together and possibly have identified the informer?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: And that is why the informer was also protected?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Then something further.  I don't know whether I understand your evidence correctly, but my instructions from Mr Nortje are that the driver of the minibus with the second incident, which was obtained from the Detective Branch, the point in the road where the ambush was to be set up was discussed with the driver and it was pointed out to him.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Because he was there physically?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Then, did Mr de Kock telephone you along the way?  They went to a hotel and you also went there, is that correct?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, I didn't go there.

MR LAMEY: You didn't?  Because my instructions from Mr Nortje are that you arrived there, or that you knew that they would be there.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, I knew that they were at Island Rock for the weekend.

MR LAMEY: No, I mean on the way back.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, I didn't go to the hotel, not at all.

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon, which hotel are you referring to?  Is this the bar at Moolman, or what?

MR LAMEY: Mr Nortje recalls it as a hotel.  It may be that very same place.  We're not really speaking of any other place.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, I did not go to the hotel.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you at Moolman's?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: The Moolman hotel, no.  I know the place very well but I didn't go there with them.

MR LAMEY: Where did Mr de Kock make contact with you?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: At the office.

MR LAMEY: Did he arrive there at the office?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I don't know whether he called first, it's possible, but he did arrive himself at the office later on.

MR LAMEY: Did you contact him at Island Rock with regard to the second action?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, he didn't contact me.

MR LAMEY: Did you contact him at Island Rock?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, I didn't.  There weren't any telephone facilities there.  It's a house on the beach and there are no facilities for a telephone or a telephone box.

MR LAMEY: Did Mr de Kock arrive at the offices coincidentally before the second incident, or was there any arrangement with regard to it?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Chairperson, he arrived there because the informer had said that the persons had to infiltrate quickly, that there would be a number of groups entering the country successively.

CHAIRPERSON: Just correct me if I'm wrong.  Didn't Mr de Kock say that he went to some police station that was nearby Island Rock and then made phone calls from a police station, I've forgotten the name of it, from time to time to your offices?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That was from Mbazwana.  I have said it is possible that he may have contacted me from there.

MR LAMEY: I just want to put it to you that Mr Nortje's instructions to me regarding the relevance thereof are that after the proceedings, or at least the proceedings would be ended at the hotel in Piet Retief from where they would drive back to Pretoria and my instructions are that you were aware thereof that they would visit the hotel and that you indeed visited the hotel and that that was actually the beginning of the second operation.  That's where it was discussed.  This is according to his position and his recollection.  I'm not saying by that that there were previous conversations which he has negated, but I'm just putting it to you that he says that you were there.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, I wasn't there, not at all.

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, I just want to make sure, I think I've finished.  Yes, I've got no further questions thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY