Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR DREYER: Do you know when the bombs went off, and the same question was asked to Mr Klopper and he could not give a certain date when certain bomb attacks occurred and he could not say if that had something to do with the revolution.    If I may have misunderstood him, Mr Chairperson... (intervention).

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: I am also not sure if it happened on that specific day, but I remember that in that period, it did occur... (intervention).

MR DREYER: That is what I would like to know... (intervention).

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: ...and the atmosphere was still definitely that of a revolution.

MR DREYER: But you, at least at the 16th, on the evening of the 12th or the morning of the 13th, that there was not a full-scale revolution in the country?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes, I realised that it has not started as we thought it would.

MR DREYER: But the fact of the matter is that Phil Kloppers said to you on that evening of the 12th that the time is right, that the revolution is going to start, and not when, but tonight, and we're going to start tonight, is that correct?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes.

MR DREYER: And all that I'm asking here, by the 16th you saw that it has not realised, did you not then started to doubt that at one you may have been misled or misinformed?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Mr Chairperson, not really, because like I said, the whole atmosphere of revolution was still prevailing throughout the country during that period, and during that period various bomb attacks did occur.

MR DREYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DREYER

MR BRINK: Mr Badenhorst... (intervention).

MR PRINSLOO: Can I just help him with his - because he said he cannot hear?

MR BRINK: Is what I'm saying being translated for you into Afrikaans?   All right.

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That is correct, yes.

MR BRINK: Now, do you agree with me that at that time it was common knowledge countrywide that the AWB regarded the ANC with extreme antipathy, in other words hated the ANC and the ideals for which the ANC stood?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Mr Chairperson, definitely yes, because they were a threat to us, and as I said in the committee, there was no chance, if all the whites stood together for that election, that there would be any chance to win the election.

MR BRINK: No, but the point of the question is whether you agree that that knowledge was countrywide, I mean everyone knew what the AWB's attitude was towards the ANC?   I mean it's on television, on radio, in the newspapers, speeches of Terreblanche, the country knew what your attitude was and what you stood for?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: What I understood was that it would occur countrywide.

MR BRINK: It would have happened countrywide, but that the population at large knew that the AWB regarded the ANC with antipathy?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Ja, I would say that it is apparent that it was the fact.

MR BRINK: And that the AWB regarded the IFP, at that stage, as an ally against the ANC?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Definitely, yes.

MR BRINK: And you had told us that on that evening at the roadblock, vehicles were let through because the occupants in those vehicles had said they were IFP, or belonging to some other organisation which was not ANC?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That is correct, yes.

MR BRINK: And we know that on that night you were all wearing your AWB uniforms?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That is correct, yes.

MR BRINK: And on the AWB uniforms, on the shirtsleeves, was that large, what Eugene Terreblanche calls a triple seven, but a type of swastika, black on white and red, very prominent?   Whatever it is, you know what I mean, a very prominent, well-known sign or emblem?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes, the triple seven was on our uniform as well as the then commando's sign.

MR BRINK: And it was a well-known symbol or an emblem?   You were very prominent?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That is correct, yes.

MR BRINK: And I want to suggest to you that, having regard to the fact that the ANC would have been frightened of the AWB, because of the AWB's public utterances in regard to the ANC, it would have been extremely unlikely for any occupant of any motor car to have admitted to you that they were supporters or members of the ANC on that night, extremely unlikely?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Well, I do not believe that it could be the matter... (intervention).

MR BRINK: Come, Mr Badenhorst!   We know from your evidence that there was this well-known antipathy on the part of your organisation against the ANC, it was well publicised, and are you telling this committee that there'd be no problem for people to admit to you, dressed in your AWB uniforms, that they were members of the ANC?    They would have expected trouble from you, isn't that correct?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Well, Mr Chairperson, it could be that they expected trouble from us.

MR BRINK: But do you think it likely that these people would have admitted to having been members of the ANC, knowing that you were AWB people there?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: I cannot answer on behalf of them, they must give their own evidence.

MR BRINK: Well they will say no questions were asked of them and no admissions were made, that they were callously and brutally shot.   What's your comment on that?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That is not true.

MR BRINK: Just tell me once again, how much did you have to drink that night?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Mr Chairperson, at Andre Visser's flat, I had a glass of whisky, and that some evening at Commandant Deon Martin's smallholding, I also drank brandy, and that is the brandy in which he gave the evidence, a half a bottle that he shared between the two vehicles.

MR BRINK: Are you aware of the fact that theft was committed at the scene of this roadblock, money, watches, if I recollect correctly shoes, a tape set, or tape player?  Are you aware of the fact that theft took place that night?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Mr Chairperson, I only realised at the town hall that some of the items was stolen, and that is the first time I saw it.

MR BRINK: Yes.   Bear with me, Mr Chairman?   There were children amongst the people who were shot, do you agree?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Mr Chairperson, I did see young people, or the one you could say was a young man, then I also saw a younger one.

MR BRINK: What was the point of shooting these youngsters?  Couldn't you have showed some mercy towards them?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Mr Chairperson, the instruction to us was to shoot.

MR BRINK: You see, I'm going to suggest to you, Mr Badenhorst, you and your group had had far too much drink that night, that appeared at the trial, had far too much to drink and you just went out on a murderous, senseless spree of random killing, a purely racist approach, nothing to do with politics?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Mr Chairperson, that amount of alcohol that I drank, I did not, or I was not drunk.

MR BRINK: And the answer to the second part of my question?  It was just a senseless, murdering spree, nothing to do with politics, pure racism because these people happened to have black skins, that was the only reason you did this?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: No, Mr Chairperson, that is not true.

MR BRINK: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

MR MALAN: In the statement you made to the police, which you did willingly and voluntarily, and which was against the advice of your father...
TAPE TURNED OVER - WORDS LOST
...you made the statement?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, you said what I did voluntarily, I did not do it voluntarily.   I was assaulted and I was forced to make a statement.

MR MALAN: But it's said to you by Captain Van Vuuren that your father said you should not make a statement.   What's your answer to that?