Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-05

OESMAN ALEXANDER: This was a different forum, Kewtown Youth was a particular forum, this was the parent forum in terms of Kewtown Youth, if I can draw the analogy as such.

MR MARTINI: But it wasn't secretive?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It wasn't secretive.

MR MARTINI: So was there any reason to exclude members of the community from attending those meetings as they were allowed to do with Kewtown?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: There was no reason, but we basically dealt at a different level, it was the Executive or members of those branches which were elected to go there.

MR MARTINI: I want to get to one more point, you heard, were you here when Mr Peter Williams were putting certain versions on the record to Mr van Zyl and even during the arguments over the venue?  Did you recall him saying that, that was more in argument, that this bomb divided the community.  Would that be correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, to an extent.

MR MARTINI: How did it divide the community?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Because there was mistrust for a long time within the community.  The community mainly consisted of working class people, it was a sub-economic community, and you had your gang groupings within that community, which would side with the likes of, or certain of those guys, would certainly side with the likes of Isgak, because of his connection to them.

MR MARTINI: When you say mistrust, what would that mean, what do you mean, why didn't they trust, for example another group not trust the Kewtown group, the Kewtown Youth Movement?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Not in that particular way, but we were fearful, we didn't know what to expect, we didn't know who else was coopted by the CCB.

MR MARTINI: Were you, were there rumours at the time that this was your own bomb that went off and that what are you guys getting up to, within the community?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Never within the community?

MR MARTINI: Never?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: There was disinformation in terms of the State and that is what we feel, the people in the community knew and stood by the members of the Kewtown Youth, all along.

MR MARTINI: So you say there was disinformation?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: In terms of the State.  We thought that the State wanted to pick us up in terms of it.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Alexander, you say there was disinformation on the part of the State, was there actually any newspaper reports or in the media, what ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, it was spread by means of ...

CHAIRPERSON: Were you afraid that there would be disinformation, I just want to find out whether there was actually disinformation?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Sorry, let me correct myself, I was afraid that there would be, but Gakkie was also spreading rumours.  Gakkie was sowing seeds to that effect.

MR MARTINI: Do I understand you then correctly, if he spread the rumours, there were rumours within the community?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Well, not to the people that mattered.  Amongst his friends, but in essence the mothers, the Residents' Association, etc, supported the Kewtown Youth.  That is why I could go there at night, that is why I wasn't fearful in terms of walking there at night.  In terms of the day, I felt that the police could pick me up and label me.
	That is the way we thought at the time.

MR MARTINI: Did you think that the police would have thought that it was your bomb, that you were involved in radical activities?  Not yours, when I say you ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I know what you are saying sir.  We knew how the State operated, and we were fearful.

MR MARTINI: You haven't answered my question.  Was that one of your fears?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That was a fear.

MR MARTINI: That the State might believe this is what, it is a limpet mine, it is one of theirs and they are radicals and arrest you guys.  Did you fear that?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Well, yes and no, because we weren't radicals.

MR MARTINI: Okay.  Wrong choice of words.  Did you know Rev Lionel Louw?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, I did.

MR MARTINI: Who was he?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I didn't know him in a personal capacity, but I knew he was part of the Board of the ELC.

MR MARTINI: Would it be correct if I say he was the Foundation's Vice-President?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.  I know he was on the top structure, I don't know in which capacity.

MR MARTINI: The Foundation, I take it that would be the Western Cape  Foundation for Community Work in Athlone?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: FCW, that is right.

MR MARTINI: Now, have you got Exhibit J in front of you?  It is an exhibit, a newspaper clipping that my learned colleagues handed in?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Is it in Bundle J?

MR MARTINI: No, it is an exhibit, unfortunately Mr Alexander.  My one seems to have - sorry Mr Lax, it has two press clippings.  According to my notes it is marked Exhibit J, Mr Chairperson.
	It seems to be that one, yes.  On the right it's got "bomb blast at the Western Foundation", is that the one you have, Mr Alexander?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR MARTINI: The top bit, do you see it says "state of emergency - Cape Times - 1-09-1989", do you see that?  The top article?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR MARTINI: Can you read, I will read to you, let's read the bottom, the last paragraph
"... the Rev Lionel Louw, the Foundation's Vice-President said responsibility for the blast lies with those opposed to our struggle."
	Is that correct, will you support that statement?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I would support that statement.

MR MARTINI: Would you agree that in this press statement he is placing blame, maybe to some of the agents of the Apartheid government at the time?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: He goes on, he says
"... community organisations used the hall, and in no way do we consider that members of any community organisation would have placed the bomb."

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is also correct.

MR MARTINI: He is making a statement to dispel, would you agree, any suggestions that it was a bomb of one of the communities that operated from his hall, would you agree with that?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I would agree with that fully.

MR MARTINI: Would you therefore agree that by making that statement, it is because there must have been such rumours floating around the community?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Not necessarily, but ...

MR MARTINI: Sorry Chairperson, the audience mustn't help him answer the question.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Not necessarily.  Immediately after the bomb, I had still dealings with the ELC, I still knew the people there and we would be in contact, but beyond that, to the people that matters, like the people of the ELC, the KRA at the time, Kewtown Residents' Association and the people within the broader area, we were never labelled as the bombers.

MR MARTINI: Why do you think he would make such a statement?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: As I have said before, most probably, in my opinion, disinformation which was being spread by either the media or the State, I cannot recall.

MR MARTINI: Correct, so then you would agree, there must have been such rumours floating around?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: But as I have said before sir, about 90 percent of the area ...

MR MARTINI: Just answer me, Mr Alexander, would you agree with that?  Would you agree with that?

MR LAX: Your microphone is off, Mr Martini.

MR MARTINI: Sorry.  Would you agree with that statement, that there must have then rumours?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: There might have been.

MR MARTINI: Do you accept that?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I would accept that.

MR MARTINI: Thank you.   Now just a few more questions, Mr Alexander.
	I accept that after the bomb, you must have been shocked and traumatised?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, I was.

MR MARTINI: Just tell us briefly, after the bombing, exactly what did you do?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: As we exited, or what?  Immediately as the bomb exploded?

MR MARTINI: Just shortly thereafter, the bomb explode, I can accept there must have been chaos in that hall.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.