Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-24

MR WILLS: Yes, I'm not asking you from your personal knowledge, I'm asking you from your experience as a security policeman and it would seem to me to be a likely scenario that you would have a back-up.  I mean you had one, so the chances are that they also would have had one.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: The chances are, but I think he was surveilling a residence.

MR WILLS: Yes.

MR VISSER: If it can assist my learned friend, I can tell him now, Mr Chairman, that van der Westhuizen's evidence will be that he was there alone, if it can assist at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I interrupt for a moment.  What is the Knoll?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, it was a house and the Knoll was the address where it was.

CHAIRPERSON: Not a residence?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, it is, it's a double storied residence.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh because I thought you were distinguishing, because you were saying van der Westhuizen was observing a residence, so were you, you were both observing residences?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR WILLS: I'm sorry are you not wanting to comment on my question?  My question was that in all probability there would have been a back-up at that stage.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I would have presumed so, Sir.

MR WILLS: Yes.  And in probability if a back-up was used, because this was such a secret operation, that it would have also been these trusted people from C20?  We're talking about after the 8th of, or after the 7th of July now.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Sorry, are you referring to van der Westhuizen's surveillance.

MR WILLS: Yes.  I'm saying the chances are, I know that you've already indicated you don't have previous knowledge, or personal knowledge.  Well let me phrase it another way.  Do you know of any other person other than yourselves, the applicants in this matter in other words, the five applicants, that's Gen Steyn, Col Botha, Mr du Preez, Mr Steyn and yourself and those people at the safe-house in Verulam, C 20, who had anything to do with the two abductees from the 7th of July till the time of their death>?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I know of no other persons involved.

MR WILLS: Yes.  And do you know of the involvement of any other persons in operations relating to those persons that were conducted by Col Botha or were orchestrated by Col Botha?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Sir.

MR WILLS: And can I assume that you would have known of other people had this been the case?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, that would not necessarily be correct.

MR WILLS: Now your evidence is relating to the arrest of Shabalala, is very different to the evidence that was given by Mr Botha.  You've alluded to that already.  I mean basically the difference is that he testified to the effect that it would have been abundantly clear to Shabalala that Ndaba hadn't been arrested, whereas you're saying that you conducted the operation in such a way that both persons would have assumed that they were arrested.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That was my presumption.

MR WILLS: Yes.  And Botha makes no mention of you climbing into the back of the car with your colleague and pulling someone, or pulling Mr Shabalala over the back seat, rather he says that he put a gun, I think it was him who put a gun, Botha put a gun into the stomach of Shabalala.  Do you recall that happening?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I didn't see the gun in the stomach, but I did pull Shabalala with du Preez over the seat into the back seat and held his head down.

MR WILLS: Yes.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That was my part in that action.

MR WILLS: So it would have been pointless really and possibly pretty dangerous for all parties concerned to pull someone over the back seat of the car, or pull someone over the front seat of the car into the back, if he'd had a gun in his stomach at that time.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Dangerous to whom?

MR WILLS: Well, first of all the detainee and secondly it could have knocked the gun anywhere and the gun could have gone off, or wouldn't you have noticed that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I didn't even see Mr Botha with a firearm.

MR WILLS: Well, I'm suggesting that had that been the case, you would have seen it, because you'd be trained to look out for the position of weapons and the position of everybody in this arrest situation.  I'm suggesting  had that been the case, you would have seen it and you would have noticed it.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I didn't notice.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the time, was it daylight?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It was lunchtime, I think, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You got into the back of the car and you grabbed this man?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: du Preez got in the one side and I got in the passenger side of the vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: And you would have wanted to make very sure that he didn't suddenly pull a gun on you?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, I was watching Mr Shabalala.

CHAIRPERSON: You were watching carefully.  Yes.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Something that I wanted to clear up, I know it was a long time ago, I want you to try to the best of your recollection to remember  the times for me.  I want to know the time when you were called first of all to C R Swart when you saw Ndaba at C R Swart.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chair, I can't be specific at all.  I think that was also round midday.

MR WILLS: And then how long, my understanding from the evidence is that you were one of the first people on the scene when these askaris had arrested and then Mr Taylor came later and then Col Botha came later, is that right?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Sir, I seem to recall I came one of the last.  I think these senior gentlemen were there already.

MR WILLS: Okay.  So you couldn't have seen what happened prior to Botha arriving, obviously?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Sir, I didn't see what had happened.

MR WILLS: And the two arresting officers, that is I think Ninela and Sekakane, were they in the office at the stage you arrived?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I recall Mr Ninela there Sir but I have no recollection of Sekakane at all on that day.  Perhaps he was away.

MR WILLS: Yes, alright.  But Ninela was in the same office at the stage you arrived?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: This is all happening at the end of the passage.  I think he was in the office or out in the passage, but he was there.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Can you tell me how long you were at C R Swart before you left to go to the safe-house at Verulam, approximately?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I'd hazard a guess of an hour, an hour or two.

MR WILLS: And then the drive from C R Swart to Verulam.  Can you hazard a guess as to how long that would take?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Approximately 30 minutes, Sir.

MR WILLS: And then it was there that Ndaba was ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on, is that to Verulam or is that to the safe-house itself?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: The safe-house, Sir.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  And then the debriefing of Ndaba commenced at that stage and were you involved in that at all?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, Mr Botha kept us on the side, that was his baby.

MR WILLS: So you didn't even hear anything, what was said at that stage?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: He didn't allow me to.

MR WILLS: Now, how long did you stay at the safe-house in Verulam?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, perhaps another hour, hour and a half, or so.

MR WILLS: And then you would have taken another half an hour ride approximately back to Greyville?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: And then you say you arrived at Greyville at about what time?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, not so reliably but perhaps 4 o'clock, half-past 4.