Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-18

MR DORFLING: : I haven't got it handy in front I'll look at it, look it up during the lunch adjournment and then indicate after the lunch adjournment where exactly it is.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Yes. Alright. Mr Moolman from time to time in your evidence you've been referring to a picture of what you
recollect.  What I want to find out from you is, as far you can remember, what did you see on the day in question in regard to the crowd when you fired? Do you understand that?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: No,can you please repeat your question.

JUDGE NGCOBO: In your evidence Mr Moolman you've made reference to a picture that you had in mind, I just want to understand what is it that you are referring to when you talk of the picture.  Do you understand that?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I was merely referring to how I recollect the incidents of that day.  This took place four or five years back.

JUDGE NGCOBO: I understand that.  But what I want to understand is how much of your recollection is based on your impression and how much of your recollection is based on what you actually saw or observed on the day in question?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I seem to be lost.

JUDGE NGCOBO: When you shot at the crowd can you tell us what was the crowd doing at the time?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: They were coming towards Shell House.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Is that what you saw?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: At that time that is what I saw.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Thank you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Moolman just a follow up of what has been asked of you by my colleague.
	Can you paint a picture for me of how large this group was?  I think different estimations have been given by different applicants.  In your opinion how large was this group?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: It was quite a large group after they met at the intersection because two groups merged a group from de Villiers Street and a group from King George it was quite a big group.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you able to estimate in terms of numbers? Are we talking of approximately 500 marchers, a 1000 or over a 1000 marchers?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I would not give an estimation.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MR LAX: Just one question Mr Moolman.  In your evidence in- chief you said that the two groups approached and you said where they were.  You said the one group was not as big as the other.  You said
"We then heard gun shots..."
and you said 
"...we even saw people handling their guns."
That was your evidence in-chief.  What precisely did you see? Can you just elaborate on that, you saw people handling guns?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I said already that the group that was in de Villiers, that is the group we concentrated a lot on because it was not as large as the one coming from King George.  You'd see guns as they came nearer.

MR LAX: Yes, what sort of guns did you see?

INTERPRETER: The speakers mike is not on.

MS MOROKA: It is a pity that I hear both languages and sometimes words gets lost in the interpretation.  The witness said because the group was a bigger group we concentrated a lot on that group and the group had a variety of guns.

MR LAX: Thank you.  Can you describe some of those guns?  Can you tell us what sort of guns they were?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I recall AK, AK-47 and pistols, shotguns were among those.

MR LAX: Are you able to say how many firearms you may have seen in that crowd just to give us an estimate or if you are not then say you are not, it's okay?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I did not count.

MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes very well thank you very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR DORFLING: : Mr Chairperson before we take the adjournment I am able to respond to the honourable chair committee member the Honourable Mr Justice Ngcobo's question pertaining to where Mr Moolman testified he was positioned with reference to the parapet.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DORFLING: : The first portion appears in the evidence in- chief led by the state advocate at page 3439 practically from line one of that page up to lines 28 on that page, and it again appears at page 3460 in cross-examination by Mr Ackermann, from lines ten rather lines 15 to lines 18 where it is clear that the witness was first at the corner and when the shots struck the parapet he moved towards the middle of the parapet.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Dorfling.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Thank you.

MR PRETORIUS: : Mr Chairperson finally may I just read into the record or place on the record where I referred to what Mr De Silva Dias said to wit that a man with a AK-47, that is the marcher with the AK-47 that he saw, only started firing after the guards shot at the people - the marchers.  That's on page 3551 as from line two to line nine.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  We'll adjourn for an hour and resume at twenty past.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS