Human Rights Violation Hearings — Zeerust — 1997-05-06

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: I even now I cannot understand why they had a special desire about this committee.  Is it because of the conflict between the two Chiefs, as you were saying, as they were saying who was our Chief and that they were forcing us to say our Chief was Mr Molilwa.  That means the conflict between the two chiefs was the cause of the problem.

RUSSELL ALLY: That's true.  That seems to be that, the political context, the background.  This conflict between Chief Mobolilwa and, and the other Chief but earlier on another deponent, witness also spoke about the interest of the police in this committee and, this collection of this two rand and Dr Randera asked, where the people gave this two rand of their own free will, or were people obliged to contribute two rand?  What was the situation with the collection of this two rand from people in the village?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: This money which was  collected we were not forcing people but it was out of our desire that we don't have a hall which we can have beauty contests, then  we were ask accommodation at the school.  Then there was this idea of saying, we should have our own hall, because that's where we wanted to have our cultural activities there.

RUSSELL ALLY: How often was it collected ?  Was it once a week, once a month ?  How often was this money collected from people ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: We were arrested in Good Friday.  We are many  as the villagers and I was having hundred rand with me.

RUSSELL ALLY: I was asking, how often was this two rand collected ?  Was it on a weekly basis, on a monthly basis ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: It was a monthly contribution.

RUSSELL ALLY: Did each household have to pay or each person ?  How, how did this work  ?  It was on a monthly basis.  Was it two rand per house, two rand per person ?  How was, how was the two rand collected ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: It was two rand per person and children was one rand each.

RUSSELL ALLY: What if people didn't have money ?  What happened in that situation ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: There was no problem because any time you get money you'll come, you'll come and pay.

RUSSELL ALLY: What if somebody just refused to pay ?  What if I, what if  somebody said, I don't have to pay this money, because  I don't want this hall, I'm not interested.  What would happen in a situation like this ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: We didn't have  such a case of a person who said he doesn't want to contribute  to that fund.

RUSSELL ALLY: Did anybody ever complain  about this?  Did they go to, do you think that people may perhaps have gone to the Boputhatswana police and complained about this collection ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: Because we were arrested just so suddenly  I didn't have that kind of an idea that maybe there are people who are complaining in the village.

RUSSELL ALLY: Let's say there was a case of, in one house there were six people living in that house, was it expected that every month that house would have to pay twelve rand for, let's say there were six adults ?  That, that house had to pay twelve rand every month.  Is that how it worked ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: It could have been so, because we as the youth volunteered on our own that we're going to contribute  our rands and  the parents decided on their own.

RUSSELL ALLY: And are you sure that  that this was never a source of conflict.  That some people may have perhaps felt that it was unfair, because in some houses there may have been three people and in another house there may have been six people, in another house there may been two people and yet everyone was expected, who lived in a house to contribute the same amount, was this never a source of conflict at all ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: I would say it that, that might be the source of the problem or of the conflict, because when the police came, they started by saying they are looking for money.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now you said that there was this conflict  between these Chiefs, okay  ?  Now did the Chiefs take any position or side in this collection of this money ?  Was the one Chief for it and the other Chief said I'm against it ?  Do you  have any idea of the way the Chiefs felt  about this collection of money  in the village ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: There was no conflict  about that contribution because there was no problem at all.

RUSSELL ALLY: And it was the youth that you said, or this committee made up of the youth that was responsible for this money ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: That's true.

RUSSELL ALLY: Did you ever consider laying a charge against these policemen who assaulted you, who humiliated you in the way in which they did ?  Did you - because you spoke about the lawyer.  You mentioned Breytenbach I think.  Did, did ..

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: Yes, we met with the lawyers.

RUSSELL ALLY: And, what happened ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: The lawyers help us that we should not be imprisoned.

RUSSELL ALLY: So you were, you were never, you were never charged in court were you ?  Were you taken to court at any point ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: We appear  in court but other  groups did appear in court.

RUSSELL ALLY: Presently, where, this other Chief that you speak about, Molilwa,  where is he presently ?  Is he still in the village, what.......

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: Yes, he's still in Legobo.

RUSSELL ALLY: And ?  What is the relationship like between him and the other Chief  and the rest of the people in the  village ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: Since the start of the conflict, I see that we, it will not come back.  That conflict would not come back again even if you don't know the deepest heart of a person.

RUSSELL ALLY: ...............  the whole community still feel now ?  Is the community reconciled ?  Are there still, deep divisions, antagonisms ?  What, the conflict may have gone as you say but within the community itself, what'ss the situation like ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: There are no social groups as it were which divide the people.

RUSSELL ALLY: And the local government elections ?  What actually happened in the area ?  Did people just vote for whichever party they wanted to, or was there conflict or did everything go off smoothly ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: There was no conflict at all during the local government elections.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you, I don't have anymore questions.
PROF. MEIRING: Only a few brief questions, Mrs Motsosi.  I just want to know, are you married ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: I'm not married, Sir.
PROF. MEIRING: How many children do you have to take care of.

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: Three children, Sir.
PROF. MEIRING: How old are they ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: The other one was born in 1982, the other one was born in 1992, the other one was born in 1993.
PROF. MEIRING: Three.  Thank you so much.  Are you working at the moment ?  Are you employed ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: I'm not working, Sir.
PROF. MEIRING: Not working.  Did you go to school, what standard were you in school when you left the school ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: Standard six, Sir.
PROF. MEIRING: Your mother, you say that your mother was a great help to you.  Is she still alive, your mother ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: Yes, she's died in 1991, Sir.
PROF. MEIRING: So you are all on your own and you  have to  take care of the children ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: That's true, Sir.
PROF. MEIRING: Thank you very much.  Those are the questions.

MS SEROKE: Is Mr Molilwa still in your area ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: Yes.

MS SEROKE: He still living in the same house ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: Yes, that's true.

MS SEROKE: The same yard is still there ?  Are the police still there ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: No  they were, they moved.

MS SEROKE: You said there is peace now  in your village ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: Yes, yes that's true.

MS SEROKE: What is he doing now ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: He's staying at home and he's an old person.

MS SEROKE: He doesn't have businesses ?

MAGDELINE MOTSOSI: No.