Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-12

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: At the time when we were questioned, they were hitting us with the gun butts on the head.  I was bleeding at the time with my nose.  Then I was bending my head.
	When you were asked a question, if you do not know that you were the one who were asked, you would be hit to be reminded that you are the one who was asked a question.
	At that time, after that then they told us that we were members of the ANC.  After that Simon Nkompone said that we are not members of the ANC and we don't know anything about the ANC.  Again they started to hit us with those things when they told us that we were ANC and that we are not telling them the truth.
	After that they went at the back of our car, then they were conniving amongst themselves.  After that, they came back and then I was not, I had a gun shot, I didn't know what happened.  Then I woke up, then I could see that those people who were there, were not more there.
	I was bleeding and when I looked at myself on the mirror of the car, I was bleeding and injured.  Next to me was Simon Nkompone, I didn't know who others were there.  Then the young boy who is my sister, was crying.  I talked with Simon Nkompone about the burning of the car, then he said he is not able to do anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that we have covered.  Did you say young boy or young girl?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: That is a young boy who was there when I woke up, I saw him there.

CHAIRPERSON: How old was that child or boy or whatever?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: I am not able to tell how old was he at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Just the one thing that we want to know, how did you leave the scene?  What happened to you, what happened to you there eventually?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: Whilst I was still there, I saw Policemen who came there to us, whilst I was trying to extinguish the car, they said I should leave it alone.  Then I left.
	Whilst the Police were at the back, I saw other cars coming and I could see many people, many cars there.  They asked me questions as to whether what happened.  I told them the way I could.  After that I was taken by an ambulance.

CHAIRPERSON: To hospital?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, the first people that you noticed immediately after the shooting, that is the people who arrived, were the Police?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: The van came on that direction, to the direction the witness shows, and he stopped from a distance.  The way I saw it, it looked like a Police van, then they told me that I should leave.
	They did not come near me, then I was not able to verify as to whether they were Police or not.  My mind told me that they were Police because they stood there for a while.
	Whilst they were still there, many cars came.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: If I understand you correctly, did the person or the people definitely ask this group of people who were with you to what organisation you belonged to, is that correct?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: Will you please repeat the question.

MS VAN DER WALT: According to your evidence, did the people who stopped you there at that road block, after you were taken out of the vehicle, you gave evidence or testified that they started to interrogate you and asked you where you were going and what type of work you were doing and to what organisation you belonged?  Is that correct?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Your evidence is now that there was a discussion that took place between you and the people who questioned you, is that correct?  You mentioned that.

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: I did not say we had a discussion, they were asking us questions which I stated.  Those are not questions which took a long time.

MS VAN DER WALT: You say that the people afterwards said that you are members of the ANC, is that correct?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was it possible for you to hear what every single person in your group answered then?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: I said the person who replied was Simon Nkompone.  He said we are not members of the ANC and we know nothing about the ANC.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did anybody else answer?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: I don't remember.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you do not know, it could have been possible that someone else answered as well?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: I don't believe so.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said that you were hit over the head.  With what were you hit?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: I was hit on the face with the gun butt.

MS VAN DER WALT: I understood your evidence that you were hit on the head, this is why I ask this question to you because you said that there where you were, and that you were hit on the head and that your nose bled?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: I said on the face, then I bled with my nose.

MS VAN DER WALT: I put it to you sir, that Mr Kloppers and Mr Martin gave evidence that Mr Kloppers tapped the people with a baton on the head if they did not answer and that Mr Martin, Deon Martin, asked the questions.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think he will know who Deon Martin is.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would just like to complete the statement.  They say that the people who were questioned admitted that they were members of the ANC.  That is a statement that I would like to make to you and if you would like to comment on that.

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: I didn't understand the question.  I don't understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, let's leave Deon Martin out of it, the question is - what counsel is putting to you is that you people were asked to which political organisation you belonged and then you said you belonged to the ANC.

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: That is not so sir.

MS VAN DER WALT: I have no further questions, thank you.

MS VAN DER WALT: .

MR KNOETZE: I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KNOETZE

MR PRINSLOO: Sir, you said there was first another vehicle that already stood there when you got there, is that correct?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: The occupants of that vehicle, the black people, already sat on an embankment when you got there, is that correct?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: That is correct, we found them sitting down.

MR PRINSLOO: Tell the Honourable Committee what questions were put to them before you arrived, do you know?

MR MALAN: Is that not obvious Mr Prinsloo, it is an axiom if he was not there, which he said he did not, he cannot say what the questions were.

MR PRINSLOO: With respect Mr Chairperson, they could have asked if everyone was there.

MR MALAN: But your question was while he was not there?

MR PRINSLOO: I will follow that up Mr Chairperson.  Other people were there before you, who already sat there on that embankment when you got there, is that correct?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: The question to you, was it only put to your group or to everyone?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: We were only the people who were asked, because we were the only ones who were beaten.  I don't know as to whether they were asked.

MR PRINSLOO: Okay.  Sir, while this hitting occurred, did it coincide with the questioning, was it taking place at the same time?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: Sorry?

MR PRINSLOO: The questioning and the hitting, did this happen at the same time?

ABRAHAM MOTHUPHI: On the issue of assault, I explained that they said we should look down whilst we were sitting there.  Then when you are, if I am asked a question, the person said, the one who asked me the question would say I should look him on the face, then I was beaten then because I did not respond to a question.  I was looking down, I did not look at the person who was questioning me, then I was hit again on the face.  Then I was asked those questions.