Amnesty Hearings — Carltonville — 1998-08-11

CHAIRPERSON: The attack on the second deceased, the second person, who was involved in that attack?

MR MOKOENA: After a long fighting with Mr KK Nxaku whom we defeated until he never fought back, when I raised my head I found that Mr Hendrik van Rooyen, the late comrade Tebogo and Mr Gustaff Morupisi were there where Mr Sedisa was lying.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the short adjournment at this stage and resume in fifteen minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

JOEL MARAPISI MOKOENA: (s.u.o.)

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Now before we had this short tea adjournment, you were still explaining how the two people died and especially the one deceased named KK.  That appears to be where you were involved.  Now, I would want to know as to how did it happen that after your mandate was to go and arrest or to go and catch, as you said, these people, why were they then assaulted or killed?  Why were you then killing them?

MR MOKOENA: In fact I may say that it was a self-defence matter at that time but from the first instance as the mission and the agreement was concluded by the comrades, the mission was to go and catch the perpetrators.  As a member of the ANC at the time and my fellow comrades, we did this as comrades.  It was not something we were doing only for us, it was a thing that we agreed upon, that as members of the ANC Youth League we came to the decision that we are going to trace the perpetrators as the information we received on the night of the attack.
	I would say that it was not meant to attack the perpetrators in the first place but the assaults and the attack took place after Mr KK Nxaku drew a gun.   We thought we can get the gun off his hand.  Now as he pulled out the knife it just happened that it's now a fight, it was no longer in the ...[indistinct] of now, having to can get him in our hands because he was having a knife at that time.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  Now in your application you refer to two gentlemen, one Nzeku and Ramagotedi and this is under instruction where you were asked if there were any orders given.  Now, did these two gentlemen give any orders inasfar as this operation was concerned, did they give you any orders?

MR MOKOENA: No, they didn't give us the orders.

MR KOOPEDI: Why did you mention them, why are you referring to them in your application?

MR MOKOENA: In fact like I've stated in my application form, I was referring to the leadership part in fact because Mr Ramagotedi was in the Youth League Leadership and Mr Nzeku was Secretary General of the ANC Youth League.
	Both Mr Nzeku and Mr Ramagotedi did know about the then tense situation in our area, they did know about the gang activities which were troubling the community at that time and of course they did know that the Youth League or the entire youth in our area were mostly the victims of the then situation of the day to day killings, attacks and the likes.

MR KOOPEDI: Before we sum up, is there anything that you want to say to this Committee, that we have not spoken about?

MR MOKOENA: In fact what I wanted to say that I want to thank first the Commission for the entire time they have given to me to have to can come up here and give the side of the story because ever since it happened seven years ago, I never had the chance like this one to can tell the whole truth of what had happened on the 8th of September 1991.
	So as a member of the ANC Youth League and as a member of the ANC, I know the whole thing about this Commission since it was to established, and now I thank the Commission and the Commissioner for giving me this opportunity to reveal what had happened during that day of the 8th of September 1991.

MR KOOPEDI: Is that all?

MR MOKOENA: Furthermore I want to say that since the Commission's objective is to give, to hear all the truth about the past atrocities, the atrocities of the past which were pressurised by the past regime, I myself say that today as I'm sitting here before the Commissioners, what I'm giving now is only the truth about what happened during that day, about the deceased and now I'm asking from the deceased's family, the entire community Kutsaong, my family too and all those who have, whom I have caused a great pain because of my actions to all what had happened on the day of the 8th of September.

MR KOOPEDI: Mr Chairman, that will be the case for the applicant for now.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: What standard of education have you had?

MR MOKOENA: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: What standard of education have you had?

MR MOKOENA: Standard 10.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

MR MOKOENA: Actually when I left school I was doing standard nine but I've now matriculated during my stay at prison.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time of this occurrence, were you still a student?

MR MOKOENA: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: At the time of the occurrence, were you still a student?

MR MOKOENA: No, I was employed.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you doing?

MR MOKOENA: What?

CHAIRPERSON: What were you doing?

MR MOKOENA: I was employed at Golden West Engineering as a profile cutter operator.

CHAIRPERSON: You have mentioned the ANC Youth League, you mentioned the Kutsaong Youth Congress, is there any difference between these two bodies or are they the same?

MR MOKOENA: Actually I'll explain it this way: during the formation of Kutsaong Student Congress which was aligned with Kutsaong Youth Congress, KYCO in abbreviation.  KYCO and KUSCO were the two bodies which gathered the entire youth of Kutsaong.  KUSCO, as it was with the ideals of the Congress of South African Students, came after the unbanning of the organisations that it should be COSAS.  And of course, KUSCO and KYCO are now the present ANC Youth League at Kutsaong.  Mostly the members are still the ones from Kutsaong Student Congress and Kutsaong Youth Congress.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, are there any questions you wish to put to this applicant?

MR STEENKAMP: Yes, Mr Chairman, if you would allow me a few questions.
	Mr Mokoena, on your own version you have indicated that on the day of the incident the first deceased and the second deceased were basically trapped, they couldn't go anywhere, there were in the mine premises and they couldn't escape, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: Of course it was correct.

MR STEENKAMP: And on your own version, after, it seems to me that after you had disarmed the first deceased you then embarked on stabbing the deceased, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: The stabbing of the deceased came after we disarmed him first of the gun and he drew out a knife, a jungle knife.  That time it was during the course of what I can call, what I can describe as a fiction(?) fight between us and Mr KK Nxaku.

MR STEENKAMP: But please help me if I'm wrong, I understood your evidence to be that at the time when the deceased was killed he was not armed at all, you took the knife from him, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: As we were fighting I fought to get the knife out of his hand and then as he was trying to fight back I finally stabbed him.

MR STEENKAMP: Were you the only person that was stabbing the deceased or were there other people involved as well?

MR MOKOENA: During the stabbings I was with Mr Abram Maumakwe whilst Mr Steven van Rooyen was still hitting the deceased with an iron bar.

ADV DE JAGER: Just repeat the second name please, Mr Abram?

MR MOKOENA: Abram Maumakwe.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I hear you correctly to say that Abram Maumakwe struck the deceased with an iron bar?

MR MOKOENA: During the stabbings I was with Mr Abram Maumakwe while comrade Steven van Rooyen was still hitting the deceased with an iron bar.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, it's not quite clear to me, you say during the stabbing you were with Abram, did Abram also stab?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, Abram came at the time I started to stab Mr KK Nxaku.  As he was still trying to fight back Abram was already there and we stabbed him.