Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-03

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Koopedi.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson.  Chairperson, the next applicant will be Mr Jabulani Sydney Mbuli.  He's ready to be sworn in Chairperson.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: (affirmed states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi

MR KOOPEDI: Mr Mbuli I'm showing to you an application form.  Chairperson that's on page 29 of the bundle of documents.  Is this your application form?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: And on page 34 of the said bundle, there's a signature appearing just above the word "Deponent", would this be your signature?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, it's mine.

MR KOOPEDI: Is it correct that you are an applicant in this matter that involves the landmines in the Messina area?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: That is so.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, at any stage were you a member of a political organisation?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, I was a member of the ANC and its military wing, Umkhonto weSizwe.

MR KOOPEDI: When and where did you join the ANC?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I joined the ANC in 1981 in Swaziland.

MR KOOPEDI: Did you receive any military training?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I did receive my military training in Angola and the Soviet Union and Tanzania.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, you've heard the evidence of your co-applicant Mr Nondula, who says that you were part or you belonged to the unit together, do you confirm this?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, it's true.

MR KOOPEDI: Now he also went on to say that upon infiltration, this unit was broken into two groups, one led by Chilies and one led by Agrippa, can you confirm this?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, the unit was divided and I belonged to Chilies' group.

MR KOOPEDI: Now would you briefly tell this Honourable Committee what your group did from the time you crossed the border into the country, into South Africa?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you proceed, Mr Mbuli, do you know what Chilies' real name was?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: No, that was the nom de guerre, Chilies, I don't know his real name.

CHAIRPERSON: You've never learned it, even now as you sit now you don't know it.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And is he still alive, do you know?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: No, he died.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson.  I had asked you to briefly tell this Honourable Committee what your group did, part of this unit did from the time your crossed into the country, South Africa.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Ja, as a unit of twelve we were assigned a mission, as my comrade has already mentioned what was the mission and we decided no, we have to divide because the unit was too big.  The other unit will be under - the other six will be under Chilies and the other six will be under Agrippa.  Then we stayed a night before because it was late, in Zimbabwe, then we crossed the following day, it was a Monday, if I recall.
	Then the whole night we planted the landmines in the area shown on our maps, then the following morning, the early hours of the morning which will be around five, then we crossed back to Zimbabwe because we were given strict orders.  That mission should be a fast mission.  You go and come back and it's what we did.

MR KOOPEDI: Now how many mines, landmines did your group plant?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: We planted six landmines.

MR KOOPEDI: And these are the mines that took you the greater part of the night to plant.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Immediately thereafter, you say in the early hours of the morning, you went back to Zimbabwe.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Ja, we went back to Zimbabwe.

MR KOOPEDI: Would I then be correct to say that you were inside the country, carried your operation only for that night, one night?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Now in the process of planting these landmines, were you in a position to decide where a landmine should be planted, you personally?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: No, not personally but the Commander decided that no, we'll plant the mine here and we'll have to do that, it was an order.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, in as far as you know, which of your landmines exploded, do you know?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: No, I won't know.

MR KOOPEDI: Would you know which victims were injured or killed by the landmines that were planted by your group?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I won't say that no, mentioning the name that no, it's this person who was, who detonated our mine, but I know that the mines in that area were detonated.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson, that will be the evidence-in-chief for this applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wagener, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the applicant?

MR WAGENER: Sir, your written application has been referred to you by your lawyer, pages 29 to 35, correct, of the bundle, that's your application.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Can you repeat it again?

MR WAGENER: Is this your application, page 29 to 35 of the bundle?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: And you took the oath when signing this document that this is the truth.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Do you still say so?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, I'm still saying that.

MR WAGENER: For which incidents do you apply for amnesty?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I applied for the mines exploded in that area which the bigger unit was operating.

MR WAGENER: The which unit, sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: He said the bigger unit was operating, in other words are you saying that you apply for amnesty in respect of the mines laid by the twelve of you?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: But the way I understand your evidence, you were not involved in some of the incidents, your smaller group.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: They were not involved?

MR WAGENER: Your group.

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes.

MR WAGENER: Was not involved in all these incidents, why do you apply then for amnesty for all those incidents, I'm not sure?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I don't understand you Sir, when you say my unit was not involved because we are a bigger unit.

MR WAGENER: Were you involved?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, I was involved.

MR WAGENER: In the landmine that killed the family of my client Mr van Eck?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, I was involved as a bigger unit.

MR WAGENER: Were you yourself involved?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Yes, I was involved.

MR WAGENER: In this landmine that killed the family of my client?

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Wagener's asking is, were you personally, yourself, physically, personally involved in the planting of the landmine that killed members of the van Eck family, yourself personally?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: Sir, I will say as a member of the unit I was involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand what you're saying, but what Mr Wagener's asking is, do you know whether you were personally involved in the actual laying of that specific actual mine that blew up the van Eck family?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: I won't know because we operated in a very big area.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wagener.

MR SIBANYONI: Can I come in here?  The unit consisting of twelve members, did it have a name?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: No.

MR SIBANYONI: These two units consisting of six members each, did they have names?

JABULANI SYDNEY MBULI: No.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wagener.

MR WAGENER: Why I'm asking you this, if you have a look at page 31 of the bundle, in the middle of the page you say that the victims of your actions were, you refer to a van der Eck family, I assume you wish to refer to the van Eck family and you refer to a labourer, Mr Ndlovu, those were the victims of your actions.  Correct?