Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-05

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: We were at Naledi.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: At whose place?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I think it was a back room or back rooms that were hired by someone.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Whose place Mr Nkabinde?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I do not know the surname of the household but Kopane was living there, he was leasing the place, he had hired the place.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'm sure you know the date when the meeting was held, what was the date?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I think it was a week.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean, you think it was a week prior to the 16th January which was the date of the first incident?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: That is correct, a week prior.  He came to me and told me that we should have this operation and we met at that back room.  I don't remember the date.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who else was at that meeting?  Is it everybody who was involved in the operation or yourself and Monde and any other person?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: It was Monde, myself, Kopane, Thabang, the commander and myself.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: My colleague asked you at a very early stage as to whether all of you were APLA members, do you remember that?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you answer was you are one as well as Monde, you don't know about the others, the other five as you say?

CHAIRPERSON: The other three.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The other three because you're five, thank you Mr Chairman.

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes that is correct, I did not know the other ones, Monde brought these other three to us.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were these other three also in that meeting?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes they were.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is it not so Mr Nkabinde that in a structure like APLA members knew very well that you shouldn't just easily trust anybody, actually - actually, cadres did not even trust one another, was that not the position?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes that is correct, but we do recruit people.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now if it is the position that you should not trust easily and you want to extend even as it was your policy not to trust one another, how could you have three non-members in an APLA operation where it was planned.  How could you trust people who were not even members?

CHAIRPERSON: Who he didn't know to be members.

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: It the commander trusted them so much as to bring them with I could not gainsay that because the commander did not say we were going to embark on an operation at a certain place, he did not divulge those facts at that time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Oh, he didn't divulge the facts at the time when you had a meeting?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: He said there is an operation that we should undertake.  He had some information to the effect that there were guns but he did not specify the place.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: There's no difference.  Turn to your application page 12 of the bundle, paragraph 10(a), the fourth line.  I will read for convenience
"The objective was political because the targets would be political targets."
Do you see that?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What is a political target?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: It's white people who came from Europe in 1652 to come and rob us of our land.  Our targets are the settlers.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now you were asked very lengthily by my learned friend about the suspension of the armed struggle and you gave answers as well as explanations.  Was the armed struggle ultimately suspended by the PAC according to your knowledge now?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes we have suspended the armed struggle, we are in a process of democracy because that is just what we have been fighting for and dying for, that is why it is like this today because we fought for it, that's why we had to suspend the armed struggle.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When was the suspension called?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I'm not sure about the date because we got arrested at that time and the commander had not yet told us that we were suspending the armed struggle.  We got arrested just at that point.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Let's leave the commander, that's what you told my learned friend that you listened to the commander, but I said according to your knowledge was it ever suspended, you said yes.  Now on your knowledge, not the commander's knowledge, you don't know the date, the month?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: We suspended the armed struggle, I do not know the date because I got arrested and after we got arrested we did not know that the armed struggle had been suspended.  We continued attacking the enemies up to the point when I got arrested.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Nkabinde, I want you to understand me, I don't want to confuse you.  I know that you were not told by the commander that's why you went on with the operations, that I know, but my question to you about the suspension, you said the suspension did ultimately take place.  On your knowledge, are we together?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now you don't know the date when it was - the armed struggle was suspended?  You don't know the month when the armed struggle was suspended, am I correct?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know the year perhaps?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: If I'm not mistaken that was during 1984.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: 1984?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: 1994.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: '94 or '84?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: 1994.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If I said to you the armed struggle was suspended on the 16th January 1994 would you accept it?  The 16th January, precisely on that date and precisely the date when you committed one of the offences?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I've already pointed out that we had not yet received the order.  Our commander had not told us that on the 16th or as from the 16th January 1994 we should stop with the armed struggle or place a moratorium.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You told us that you met Monde, that is Monde Gadebe, around December 1993, am I correct?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you meeting him for the first time then?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I knew him through another African with whom we were in exile and we were introduced together with Monde.  Then we started phoning each other, that's how we got to know each other.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When did you first meet Monde?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I don't remember whether it was November or December as of the month or the date.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ...(inaudible) December 1993 had you met Monde?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Sorry?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Before December 1993 when had you met him again?
Before the date?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: It was my first time to see him in December 1993.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And as you said earlier on that you met him that time in December 1993 and you communicated by telephone, am I right?  And then you met in December 1993, in January the very following year you carry out a serious operation together?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes we contacted each other over the phone and meet on a consent basis.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now going back to Exhibit A, that is your affidavit, paragraph 4, that's where you say that you - you state that you joined PAC in 1976 and again in 1976 you left the country to be trained in Tanzania, do you see that portion?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: At that time in 1976 who was the President of PAC?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: It was Robert Sobukwe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Are you sure?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I'm positive.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who was the acting president in '76?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: It was Robert Sobukwe.  I'm not sure.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What was Potlako Laballo in 1976?  Potlako Laballo what was he in 1976 within the PAC?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I think he was a high commander if I'm not mistaken.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If I say to you he was not, he was actually the acting president, what would you say?  Because you're not sure, let's leave it, you're not sure, not so?
	In Tanzania, when you were undergoing training, did you belong to any platoon?