Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-28

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Semenya, let me make the point that what I, that my submission to the Commission in this respect, let me be quite clear, does not deal only with your client.  It may affect Mrs Mandela, but it is not intended to deal specifically with her.  It is something that I personally feel very strongly about.
 That those who have committed human rights offences in the past, which do not amount to a political offence, which they were granted amnesty for, should be disqualified from holding public office.  Straight forward and simple.  I do not believe that we can go into our future where those matters haven't been cleared up.
 And for me that would be the poison that would not allow us to go forward.  Now, that is my answer to you.

MR SEMENYA: But that is precisely my difficulty Mr Cachalia, and I didn't say you are referring to my client.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: I am saying to you are you asking the Commission, and I am addressing you as a lawyer and a human rights activist, are you asking this Commission to make a recommendation which is already law, in this country, or was there some intention to be sensational?

AZHAR CACHALIA: If you are imputing improper motives to me ... (intervention)

MR SEMENYA: Well, just give me an explanation and I will retract that.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Well, I think repeat the question without the sensational bit.

MR SEMENYA: Were you asking the Commission to make a recommendation whose effect is already law in this country?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Well, if - as you say I would have to look at the law, but if you say that is the law, and if you say that the Commission is bound by that, then my position is covered, then all my recommendation is that it is tautologist, it adds nothing.

MR SEMENYA: It must be so Mr Cachalia.  It must be so.  Now, let us look at the other aspect of your statement.  I have had an opportunity to study the statement which you have prepared.  The very first page of the statement in the main, other than dealing with your particulars, covers briefly explains the circumstances which prevailed at that time and leading up to the issuance of the statement.

AZHAR CACHALIA: That is correct.

MR SEMENYA: Is it fair to say this aspect of the history, even a gentleman like Mr Morobe would have been able to give or was it peculiarly within your knowledge?  The background of the circumstances?

AZHAR CACHALIA: No, I claim no - there is no unique reason why I gave this information, no.

MR SEMENYA: Okay.  So I go down the fourth page of your statement.

AZHAR CACHALIA: So, you've skipped the second and third?

MR SEMENYA: No, I will come to it, I just want to show you certain things Mr Cachalia.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Sorry, you are now referring me to the fourth page?

MR SEMENYA: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Okay.

MR SEMENYA: Sorry, let me refer you firstly to page 3 of the statement.  Even in your language, you say in paragraph 10.1 I must emphasise that I am unable to give any direct evidence relating to the events around the Mandela home during the period in question.  Is that right?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Yes, you have just read that, that is what I said.

MR SEMENYA: Then let's go back and see what aspects of your statement are informed by direct knowledge of the issues that pertains to this hearing.
 At the top of that page you make a statement which at least in the type written statement, which stood like this, at paragraph 8.1 the last line of that, it says Mrs Mandela often directed these operations.  And I paid careful attention when you testified yesterday, you then said Mrs Mandela is widely said to have directed these operations.  Is that correct?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Sorry, you are now reading from the top of page 3, is that 8.1?

MR SEMENYA: That is right, the last line.  It reads in its typed form, Mrs Mandela ... (intervention)

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mrs Mandela often directed these operations, yes.

MR SEMENYA: It stands  like a statement of fact?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: And I recall when I listened to your evidence, you amended this to mean Mrs Mandela is widely said to have directed these operations.  Now, you are quoting it is a hearsay at that level, is that right?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Semenya, really, my statement is very clear.  Start at paragraph 8, you don't look at 8.1 without looking at 8.  At 8 where I am saying there were many rumours that circulated.  That is a fact.  The fact is that there were many rumours and they were wide spread.
 Okay, I say then in the absence of any independent means of verification, it was impossible to separate fact from fiction, so I concede that there may have been some facts, there may have been some stories.  There were however a few common themes which recurred, the themes referred to if you like, the clusters of rumours okay, that were emerging.
 Then when I go from 8.1 and 8.2 and 8.3, I am talking about those different themes.  I say I have no direct knowledge of any of that.  That is what I am saying.

MR SEMENYA: All I am saying to you sir is that if you read 8.1 it would say the following to you, that the Football Club and this is the rumour, the Football Club often dispensed a frightening brand of justice which included vicious assaults in cases ranging from domestic disputes to those who crossed their paths and were branded as informers.  Mrs Mandela often directed these operations.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Yes, because we would hear for example, that the kombi was driving around Soweto and that Mrs Mandela was inside the kombi.  That Mrs, you know, those sorts of things were spoken about widely in the community.
 I don't claim to have been there, I don't claim to have seen it.  I am saying to you that this is what people have said and as far as I am concerned, if that is being said and Mrs Mandela is in that kombi, then Mrs Mandela is not some sort of passive passenger in the kombi, Mrs Mandela is directing the operation.
 Now, if all ... (intervention)

MR SEMENYA: Mr Cachalia, please.

AZHAR CACHALIA: No, but you must allow me to complete what I am saying.  You see, this is not simply give me a yes or a no and run away.  I have never claimed that I had direct knowledge and I am saying that when - what I have set out here, represented the things that were spoken about in the community, particularly the Soweto community at the time.

MR SEMENYA: Now, at least between you and I we know, that you have no independent way of telling us any of these allegations are true, is that correct?

AZHAR CACHALIA: No.

MR SEMENYA: Then can we read 6.10 on page 2 of your statement?
 This was the climate in which Mrs Mandela created her own personal vigilante gang?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Are you (indistinct) somebody, or this is now your conclusion?

AZHAR CACHALIA: No, this is my understanding of how the Mandela gang, euphemistically referred to as the Football Club, was created.  That was my understanding, that is what everybody who was anybody in Soweto, including - well anyway - everybody and anybody who was in Soweto who understood these matters, held that view.

MR SEMENYA: No, but Mr Cachalia, as a lawyer really, you would know that if you say I held a view without any basis of verifying the allegations, that she had a personal vigilante gang of her own, it is one thing.  To put it in a statement this was the climate in which Mrs Mandela created her own personal vigilante gang?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: On what basis of actual factual knowledge personally, that could have given rise to the validity of the statement you are making?