Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-31

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I went out, I saw Mr Brode standing there with 
the waiter and then the gunshots were being fired at us.  I looked 
up, it was the same vehicle.  It looked to me like the same vehicle, 
the same dark vehicle, I can't put a colour to it, it was coming down 
in the opposite direction.
	The same type of vehicle, the nose was up in the air, like this 
and the people were firing at us.  That is the second time I went out. 
 I dragged Mr Brode in because he froze in the doorway, he had 
been shot in the leg and against the wall, the first shots hit the wall. 
 That's when I dragged him in with fear, I went through.

UNKNOWN: Did you see anyone in front of the Tavern?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: In front of my Tavern?

UNKNOWN: No, in front of the Heidelberg Tavern when you 
... (intervention)

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Did I see anybody?

UNKNOWN: Yes?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I can't say I did.  I can't say I did.

UNKNOWN: You were looking at the car because shots were 
coming from the car?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Correct Sir.

UNKNOWN: You were focused on the car?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I was focused on the car.

UNKNOWN: Okay.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Mr Arendse, in circumstances like that when 
you are being shot at, there is not many things that you can observe, 
other than look out for your safety.  And I was looking out for Mr 
Brode's safety as well.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  No, I understand.  Now, so at which point 
then did you, you said yesterday that you saw someone at - it 
sounded to me that someone sitting at the back, firing at that side of 
the road, or firing towards the opposite side of the Heidelberg 
Tavern and Machados?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: When I came out and stood with Mr Brode 
before they started shooting at us, the shots of gun and I saw the 
one barrel being stuck out, sort of out of the roof like this, and the 
person's head from the back.
	And then another guy on the right hand side of the car, sorry 
the left hand side of the car, shooting towards us.  They weren't 
shooting direct at us at first, they were shooting like sort of at an 
angle straight at the wall.  And then the guy turned the gun on us 
and started shooting, that is when I grabbed and ran inside.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: The car was travelling very, very slowly.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  Maybe I can tell you that there was 
someone on the corner of Lower Main Road and Station Road.  It 
seems that more or less the same time that you observed what 
happened.
	I will read to you from page 45 of the record and page 46 Mr 
Chairman, from lines 22 onwards.  An employee of the Cape Town 
City Council, John Jacobs, was on duty that Thursday evening of the 
30th of December 1993.  He was patrolling the streets to see 
whether all the street lights were burning.  He and a colleague were 
driving alone Lower Main Road in Observatory from north to south. 
 As they arrived at the corner of Lower Main Road and Station 
Road, they heard sounds like gun fire or fire crackers and saw three 
men emerge.  Since they wanted to turn into Station Road, they saw 
three men in a car, against the one way, in Station Road, driving in 
their direction.  They were then forced to wait for this motor 
vehicle.  Mr Jacobs heard gun shots at the very moment when 
someone emerged from the door of the facility on the corner of 
Station Road and Lower Main Road.  He saw the end of a rifle 
sticking slightly out of the back passenger window of the vehicle.  It 
was clear to him that someone was firing from the motor vehicle at 
this person.  He had fallen flat in his motor vehicle and then when he 
lifted his head again, he saw the person who had emerged from the 
door of the corner facility lying in the storm water drain in Station 
Road.
	Now, that version doesn't exactly correspond with what you 
observed, do you agree with that?

MR PRIOR: With respect, that is not so and I must object.  In the 
summary given by the learned Judge it is connected by the witness 
Jacobs to the firearm he sees protruding, or the barrel he sees 
protruding out of the vehicle.  He links that firing with that firearm. 
 He doesn't say that the man who was shot at, was in fact firing.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that so, Mr Arendse?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, can the witness just comment.  It 
is not a trick question.  I have just read to him what Mr Jacobs said 
and I am asking him whether that corresponds with what he has told 
us.  That is all, I have made no suggestions or allegations that shots 
may have been fired from the person on the corner, and this would 
have been your brother Mr Cerqueira.  I made no suggestions.  I am 
just asking for your comment.

CHAIRPERSON: I want you to know that what Counsel has read 
out to you, is the Judge's summary of the evidence that was led 
before him on this aspect of the matter.  Do you understand?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Sure.

CHAIRPERSON: And you are invited to comment on that passage 
that has been read to you.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I have got no comment Sir.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  Now, just on the issue of the gun, 
your brother's gun in this case.  Is it correct, you can't tell us apart 
from saying to us that the Police, or a policeman looked at the gun 
and said that no shots were fired out of the gun, you cannot say 
under oath whether or not your brother fired a shot or shots at any 
of the Heidelberg attackers?

JUDGE WILSON: He has said under oath that his brother didn't 
have a gun.  That he went to where his brother's body was, and he 
didn't have a gun.  Hasn't he, isn't that the evidence he gave 
yesterday?

UNKNOWN: No, I didn't understand it to be that clear Judge, 
with respect.  What we heard yesterday and Mr Cerqueira is here to 
correct me, is that some time afterwards, it may have been five to 
ten minutes after the late Mr Cerqueira was picked up from the 
pavement, Mr Brode produced the gun to the Police.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No Sir.

UNKNOWN: His evidence was that he picked up this bag on 
the pavement.

JUDGE WILSON: His evidence was he went to his brother how 
was shot under the left arm.  He had no firearm, he had a bag in his 
hand.  Wasn't that your evidence yesterday?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Mr Cerqueira, did you see a gun?  Did you see 
your brother's gun?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Mr Arendse, like I've just told you, like the 
Judge has told you, I didn't see no gun.  When I got to my brother's 
body, he was lying there, he was choking in his blood.  I found the 
pouch that I produced yesterday next to his body and there was no 
gun there.  The gun was later given to me by Mr Brode, to my hand. 
 I held it in my hand.  The Police arrived, asked me if there was 
shots being fired by the same gun, I said no, please check it.
	The Policeman checked it, took it, gave it to another 
Policeman, he made a statement which I didn't.  I didn't make any 
statement, he made some sort of statement.  He wrote on the thing 
and they took the gun.  I don't know what happened to the gun 
afterwards to be quite honest with you.

UNKNOWN: Yesterday I read Mr Brode's, the summary of his 
evidence to you.  Do you remember that?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I do remember Sir.

UNKNOWN: And he mentioned nothing about the pouch or 
the bag which you produced here?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Or the gun?

UNKNOWN: Well, he spoke about the gun and I recall saying 
it is unfortunate that it is just left at where he said and I quote on 
page 47 on the top.  "He called to Cerqueira to take his firearm in 
hand which he kept behind the bar counter.  He then realised that 
Cerqueira was not in the restaurant.
	That is all he says about the gun.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: He is quite correct, that is what he did.  He 
went in shouting with me, we were both shouting for the gun.  I 
shouted at Mr Brode, get Joe, get my brother and he was shouting 
for my brother as well.  That is quite correct.