Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-04

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Myself was the unit commander, I had people to whom I could delegate certain tasks with regards to Attridgeville, Shushungue and Mamelodi.  I had an officer for each of these.  Attridgeville was Lieutenant Brandt, Shushungue, we had Captain van Jaarsveld and for Mamelodi, Captain Jacques Hechter and specifically with regards to Mamelodi, Captain Hechter had personnel for the purposes of security work at his disposal amongst which was Johan van Wyk, Warrant Officer Johannes Shlangwane and also at that stage, Constable Hendrik Bokaba.  And from the end of 1987, Constable Danny Selahla to whom is referred as "slang".

MR DU PLESSIS: Colonel, where were the offices of unit B?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: We were restricted to the Compal building in the city centre of Pretoria, that's where the police museum was as was testified earlier on.  We were on the 2nd and on the 3rd floors, the building only had these three floors.  I, myself was on the 3rd floor, each one of my personnel had an office - sometimes they had to share offices between two or three people but we never had any offices anywhere else.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did Captain Bokaba - we all know to whom we refer, did Bokaba and Selahla have offices there?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Yes, they did.

MR DU PLESSIS: Where did they report for their duties and how did it work when they've reported for duties?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I, as unit commander saw them each and every morning between 7 and half past 7 in my offices except when there were exceptional circumstances, where one or the other member could not come in, then he called me and said that he could not come but the normal rule was that he would come to my office between 7 and half past 7 and then they would see the unit commander.  All these sub-heads with their personnel did this and this procedure was then repeated later on in the afternoon around about 4 o'clock.

MR DU PLESSIS: Colonel, what were the general tasks of Bokaba, van Wyk, Selahla and the others?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: They - we had a network of informants that we had to deal with.  Their tasks were to liaise with these informants and to receive information, to get reports if possible, written reports that they could give to me at these times when they came to me to see me, whether it was half past 7 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon, if there were written reports these would have been given to me.

MR DU PLESSIS: Colonel, were there ever any sub-branches or sub-offices in Mamelodi?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Never ever.

MR DU PLESSIS: And you have heard the testimony of an office called "goss", can you explain that?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Yes, there was a "goss" office, it - "goss" means joint operational centre and this centre was manned by members of the South African defence force, the South African police amongst which were people from unit 19, the riot unit or the riot squad.  In this centre information was kept usually in maps on the walls about incidents in Mamelodi, if it was arson, riots or whatever, this information was kept there for the simple reason Mr Chair, that we did not get any information from the defence force.
	We had the system of informants in Mamelodi and we received this information and this was given to the joint operational centre so that these people could plan for riots, meetings, boycotts or whatever the information was on.  I am not saying that the people in the JOC never gave us any information, when something came to their attention they would naturally tell us about it but it was rather the exception than the rule, we were the people that gathered the information.

MR DU PLESSIS: Do you have any knowledge of where the reaction force unit 19 was stationed?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Yes, there was an hotel - I think it was the Old Highway Hotel, it was somewhere in Roslind, that is where unit 19 was stationed.

MR DU PLESSIS: Judge Wilson is not from Pretoria, can you just explain to him how far that is from Mamelodi?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I would if I have to guess, say approximately between 20 and 25 kilometres, if I'm mistaken it must be to a very small extent.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: What is that distance?

MR DU PLESSIS: 20 and 25 kilometres.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Between which places?

MR DU PLESSIS: Roslind and Mamelodi just roughly, I think it's a bit further Mr Chairman but ...[intervention]

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It is at least twice that distance.

MR DU PLESSIS: I thought about 40 to 50 Mr Chairman.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I will settle for that.

MR DU PLESSIS: Colonel, can you please explain to the Committee, when and how many times you had something to do with the applicant, Mr Ngo and how it happened?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: All right.  Mr Chair, the true situation was the following, when I took over as station of unit commander at unit B, I was in the very unfortunate situation of inheriting two very old members who were given to Mamelodi.  These were two Black members who worked for me in Mamelodi, these were Warrant Officer Leonard Dumira and Warrant Officer Hlongwane.  The first was already old enough to leave the force and Hendrik Bokaba was identified by Hlongwane and that is how ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Colonel, could you please slow down a bit.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I hear what you are saying, thank you very much Mr Visser. In that way Hendrik Bokaba then became a member of the security branch but Johannes Hlongwane, Warrant Officer Hlongwane was quickly to follow due to his age and we had to look for somebody to take his place.  Hendrik Bokaba, he was then Captain, ...[intervention]

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, the translation was wrong, she said he was then Captain but ...[intervention]

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: He was not at that stage Captain, he was Constable at that stage and he is now a Captain.

MR DU PLESSIS: Just Bokaba please.  Thank you very much.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Bokaba came to me early on in 1987 and he indicated to me that there was a man with him in the singles quarters at the Mamelodi police station, somebody who stayed there with him.  The man was identified to me as the applicant in this amnesty application, Ngo - he was identified by Bokaba.  I indicated that Hendrik had to make an appointment so that the man can come and see me, so that we could have an interview.
	This interview did take place, Bokaba brought the man to my office in the Compal building on the 3rd floor where my offices were and also in the presence of Bokaba, I had an interview with Ngo so that he could be transferred to the security branch.  The interview took approximately half an hour and the applicant Ngo, then left my office.  Mr Chair, that was the first time in my life I ever saw Ngo and that was for half an hour, if it was a little longer I apologise but that was also the last time I ever saw him, I never saw him after that.  I knew him for half an hour in my whole life.

MR DU PLESSIS: Colonel, what was the result of the interview, did you ask him to do something?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That is correct, I asked him to return to the unit commander or the commander of unit 19 where he was stationed and to hand in an application there with a view to a transfer to the security branch.

MR DU PLESSIS: Do you know or do you have any knowledge of such an application?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I never received such an application from the unit commander up until today.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did Mr Ngo ever become a member of the security branch formally?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Definitely not Mr Chair.