Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-05-09

MR NTSEBEZA: In other words, were these SAP or KwaZulu Police?

WITNESS:   These were SAP.

MR NTSEBEZA: This son you are talking about was Thulani?

WITNESS:    /Yes, it

MR NTSEBEZA: 12B/4 Yes, it was Thulani.  He is the one who was a member of UDF.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes, where is he now?

WITNESS:   He died.  He died when I was at Umlazi.  He was knocked down by the car.  He had already started working.  He'd been working for about a year when this happened.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now, who is this person you are saying told you that he told the hostel people to come and attack you?

WITNESS:   The person who called the hostel people, it's a woman, together with another man called Mabuyela and Petros.  He is a man.  Those are the ones who went to fetch the Inkatha people from Inseleni to burn the township.

MR NTSEBEZA: On the day when they attacked, if I've heard you well, they were attacking another UDF person?

WITNESS:   Yes, they were looking for this boy, Thulani, that I've been referring to.  They were looking for him so that if they found him they would kill him, bare-hand.  As I have said, there was one person with a sharp instrument, who came in.  They had planned that this was the person who was going to stab him there and die, but because they didn't find this boy - they couldn't find him, we had already begun to realise that if he stayed here at home that was dangerous for him.  He couldn't stay at home.

MR NTSEBEZA: The last question.  You say you are staying in the shacks?

WITNESS:   I'm at W, Umlazi.

MR NTSEBEZA: If there was a way the Commission could assist you, how would you expect it to assist you?  What would you request?

WITNESS:   I do not know.  They can use their discretion, because if the Government was building houses, but even any house or other structure built for me I would be grateful to the Commission.  If it also possible that

MR NTSEBEZA: /all those

MR NTSEBEZA: 12B/6 all those property I lost I could get that, but I leave it on the Commission's discretion to see how they could assist me.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Is there anyone with a question.
Ilan Lax?

MR LAX: Just one question, Baba Hlatswayo.  You mentioned that these people who came to your township, to Hambanathi, came in buses from Inseleni.  Do you know where those buses were from?  Do you remember them?  Do you remember the name on them by any chance?

WITNESS:   I don't know.  These buses were outside the township.  They offloaded these people and these people walked to the township and they would do what was their mission.  From when they had finished they would go back to their buses and especially because it was at night, we were not able to see.  We only heard that in the morning, that they had arrived on buses, because it was a huge crowd that came.  The numbers indicated to us that they had come on buses.

MR LAX: But these were not people from your area, as far as you know?

WITNESS:   No.  No, they were combined with some people from the township, together with those who were brought by buses.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other?  Baba Hlatswayo, thank you very much for coming to this Commission.  We've listened.  We are going to try and see if we can meet some of your wishes, but not us, because what we can only do is to tell the President of this country what we think, how people can be assisted.  It is the President who is going to take a decision on the kind of help that will be available or
 /not available,
12B/7 not available, but we do thank you a lot for coming here and sharing your pain and exposing your pain here.  Thank you.

DR BORAINE: Mr Chairperson, the final witness before the tea break is Mrs Florence Mbatha, and I'll ask her to come forward, please.  We are waiting for the earphones to be put into position before we start.  Mrs Mbatha, can you hear my voice in your ears now?

FLORENCE MBATHA: Yes, I can hear now.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  I welcome you very warmly to the Commission.  Thank you very much for waiting.  It's always difficult to wait.  One gets a little nervous, but are you all right?  Are you comfortable?

FLORENCE MBATHA: Yes, I am.

DR BORAINE: Good.  Thank you again for being willing to come and tell the Commission and the nation about what happened in your own life, and you are going to tell us about the tragic death of your son, Stanley Mbatha, but before you do, as you know, I have to ask you to please stand to take the oath.

FLORENCE MBATHA: (Sworn states) (Through Interpreter)

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  Please be seated.  You are now under oath and my colleague, Mrs Gcabashe, will lead you as you tell us your story.  Mrs Gcabashe.

MRS GCABASHE: Thank you.  We greet you Mrs Mbatha.  As the Vice-Chairman has already said that you are appearing before us with a certain matter.  We really feel sorry for that great loss.  Before telling us your story, tell us where you come from, tell us your family, tell us how many children you have, so that when we speak to you we would be in a clearer knowledge of who you are.

WITNESS:   I was born at Escourt and I came to Durban as a worker and from there I got married and we moved on to Umlazi.  Mbatha passed away in 1981 - that's my husband.  I stayed at M in  /Umlazi

MRS GCABASHE: 12B/12 Umlazi with three children and my boy got married.  In 1990 he started his own family and he worked at a railway station.

MRS GCABASHE: Is that the boy whom you are representing today?

WITNESS:   Yes.  My daughter-in-law said I should come, because she is working now.  That is why I am here.  In 1990 on the 9th they were in a Putco bus in the afternoon.  They were going home to their homes and they were shot on their way.  They said they were heading to Duff's Road and one person - a white man - shot at them and my son died on the 13th.  Well, we buried him.  This was a famous matter and I couldn't hear the whole information.  People were telling me different stories.  Some of them were telling me that they heard over the radio.  I was working at that time.  I'm not working at this moment.  My daughter-in-law is the only one who is working.  Even to this day we were never called to any case.  They said that white man was arrested - the person who shot them.

MRS GCABASHE: Can I ask you a question?  In your statement you said the people were driving in their car.  Do you know who those people were?  Were they the police?  Were they people from an organization?

WITNESS:   No, they were white people.

MRS GCABASHE: Do you think they were representing any organization?

WITNESS:   This became a very big matter and people were talking and one person said they were the AWB members.

MRS GCABASHE: Can you tell us exactly?

WITNESS:   They said it was a white organization.  They were arrested after the funeral, but I never heard anything, because people would ask me, "Have you heard?  They've been arrested", and I would say  /to them,

MRS GCABASHE: 12B/13 to them, "No", because there was no court case.  I only heard from the people that they've been arrested and that was the end of the story.  I want to appear here so that I can tell the Commission that my son died tragically, but I want to know the truth, because I don't know the truth up to this day.

MRS GCABASHE: Were you requested to appear before Court?

WITNESS:  No.

MRS GCABASHE: Now, where did you hear that they are arrested?

WITNESS:   People told me that they had been reading in the papers the matter regarding our children.

MRS GCABASHE: Did you report this to the police?  Did you go as a family to report?

WITNESS:   Yes, we went to Durban Station to explain, but nothing took place thereafter.

MRS GCABASHE: You said your son was working.  Did you get any of his money - compensation of any kind?

WITNESS:   Yes, they did help a little, but I don't know are they still providing my daughter-in-law with compensation or not.