Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-22

UNKNOWN: Will I be incorrect to conclude that what you did you were doing to protect the then regime at the time?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: No.  I'm not talking about Mangope's government here.

UNKNOWN: Which government was being taken over by the AWB then?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I'm talking about the nation.  I'm not talking about Mr Mangope, I'm talking about the community or the nation.

UNKNOWN: Mr Menyatsoe, it won't help to be evasive to my questions.  I will repeat my question for the last time.  If you don't want to answer it just say so.
	According to paragraph 2 on page 10, paragraph 1.3, you did what you did in order to avoid any takeover by the AWB, am I correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Let me look at it carefully.  Can you repeat your question?

UNKNOWN: You did what you did in order to prevent a takeover by the AWB?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, I did.

UNKNOWN: Now how do you connect that with your evidence viva voce where you stated that the idea was to see to it that there was a political change, people must be able to go to the elections?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: These people wanted to participate in elections, that is what caused the unrest in Mafikeng and in Mmbatho.

UNKNOWN: I don't want to take it very long.  Do you see what you have said, that you were preventing the takeover of the government and at the same time assisting the people to go to elections, to participate politically, these two things are not the same?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I'm requesting that you repeat your question, Sir.

UNKNOWN: You stated that you were preventing a takeover by the AWB in this area and in another breath you said you were assisting the people to go for elections because they wanted a change, to go to election, do you remember that?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, I did.

UNKNOWN: Now do you agree with me that there is a difference between these two statements?
	Or perhaps to be more specific, Mr Chairman, to be fair to him, these two are mutually destructive.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: These two issues you're talking about, which one is which one?  Can you just shorten them and be precise so that I'll be able to understand you?

CHAIRPERSON: I think this is getting a little bit out of hand now, Mr Mpshe.  Perhaps if you can be as precise as possible because there seems to be a lot of confusion going on here.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I tried three times.  Perhaps I'll even have to shorten words now.
	If you say you want to assist people to overthrow a government, as you said, and at the same time you say you preventing the AWB from taking over that government, these two are mutually destructive, do you agree with me?
	I don't know whether I have done it better, Mr Chairman.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: It is possible that, it is possible that I was helping the community to achieve their intention and again to overthrow Mangope's government but on the other side I did not want the government of Bophuthatswana.  I don't know how to put it.  That it should be overthrown by AWB.  That is to say, I was helping the community to overthrow Mangope's government, not that AWB should be the one which will be the one to do the job of overthrowing Mangope's government.

UNKNOWN: I will proceed, Mr Chairman, I won't belabour that point any further.
	You testified yesterday that you were given an R4, you remember, by the officer who instructed you to go back home and get a uniform, do you remember that?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I've explained here, at that time there was no officer who gave me an R4.  We were given guns by a senior sergeant at that time.  I don't remember the identity of that person who gave me the R4, because when we went to the armoury section we were many and then we were given guns, then we'd go to the car.

UNKNOWN: Don't pre-empt my questions.  My question was never that, my question is now, why were you given R4's?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: It was to protect ourselves and again to protect the nation.

UNKNOWN: Now right through in your evidence as well as in the papers filed by your good selves, you testified that what you did you did in order to protect the community.  You made mention of the word: "the nation, the people, the community", am I correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: People and the nation is one and the same thing.

UNKNOWN: You said you were protecting these people, am I correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, those people are part of the nation.

UNKNOWN: I didn't ask whether they are part or not, I say you said you were protecting them.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Now if you say you were protecting them, if you look at page 10, paragraph 13, by way of illustration which I've just quoted, to confirm your answer.

MR HENDRICKSE: Are you referring - Mr Chairman, I don't know paragraph ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You said paragraph 13, there's no paragraph 13, Mr Mpshe.

UNKNOWN: Paragraph 1.3, I'm sorry.  That is the one I quoted.  The applicant too, I'm sorry.  I'm not going to read it, I'm just reminding him of the whole scenario of protecting people, that's all Mr Chairman.
	Mr Menyatsoe, will I then be correct if I state that your action was to protect people who were maimed and shot in your presence and not to bring about any political change?  Will I be correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: It was to protect the people.

UNKNOWN: My question did not stop there.  Alright, to assist you let's take for ...[intervention]

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Let me answer it in this way.  Because those people wanted a political change, that is why I was protecting them.  They wanted a political change and I was protecting them.  I protected the people who wanted a political change.

UNKNOWN: They wanted a political change from the then Bop Government, not so?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Now how does the killing of the three AWB people come into the picture in this political change?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That came to my mind at that time.  At that time I asked myself: What does the AWB want in that area because we as the security forces of Bophuthatswana, should we confront these people?  The police and the soldier were fighting those, if the soldiers and the police were fighting amongst themselves.
	What I'm saying is that what came to my mind is that I asked myself what the AWB wants in Bophuthatswana because the people of Bophuthatswana want political change.  Mr Mangope should liberate them to take part in the democratic elections which happened in 1994, in April.  They don't want that political change from the AWB which was killing them.  
	I had a different idea which came to me only, that there is a hidden agenda prevailing in this situation because AWB was against those people who wanted to take part in the elections.  I mean people in Bophuthatswana.  Those who wanted a permission, not from Eugene Terreblanche but from Mangope, to take part in the elections.

UNKNOWN: That is actually my problem, Mr Menyatsoe.  If they wanted a political change from the Mangope government and not the AWB, why kill the AWB then?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: It's because they were killing people in Bophuthatswana.

UNKNOWN: To be more direct and finally, by killing these AWB members, what did you seek to achieve?