Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

ADV BOSMAN: And then, in your evidence you said that if a person did not belong to a particular grouping in Bambayi, that person would have been sjamboked.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It's merely a term, they would have been thoroughly beaten.

ADV BOSMAN: So, I mean this is just what went through my mind when you mentioned that is, was the body placed in Bambayi because it had sjambok marks on it and people would have thought that she had been sjamboked and killed in Bambayi?  Was that the idea?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Ma'am it was part and parcel, it was - we could skin the cat both ways.  Once it was close to the house and also from the sjamboking that the late Ms Khubeka received at Winkelspruit, it would have been interpreted as part, as being a victim of some of the violence that was happening there.

ADV BOSMAN: Let me just take you back to your visit or entrance into the room.  Did you notice the sjambok marks on her?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No.

ADV BOSMAN: So did you not have it in mind then that you should take the body to Bambayi and people would think that she has been sjamboked?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Once we were told to find a place next to the home, Bambayi fitted the picture at the time, due to local knowledge.  We knew Bambayi fitted the picture and it was close to Ms Khubeka's house.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes.  Mr Wasserman I still don't really have your answer the way I want it.  Did you at any time see the sjambok marks?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No Ma'am.  I didn't see the sjambok marks, it was too dark.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you have expected her to have had, or did you at that time expect that she would have had sjambok marks, from what you say during the interrogation?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I did so indeed, Sir.

MR LAX: If I could just interpose please, just on this issue of sjambok marks.  I mean the fact is, you didn't think of the sjambok marks.  As I understand your evidence, that hadn't even occurred to you.  The real issue was Bambayi was a place where there was violence and that violence would cover your violence against her and the body would be dumped where there was a place where there was violence.  That's what went through your mind, as I understand your evidence.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Sir, that's Bambayi.

ADV BOSMAN: I just put it to you this way then, the fact that you said here in your evidence that in Bambayi a person would have been sjamboked, is purely coincidental?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, that's phraseology Ma'am.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.  What sort of area was Bambayi?  In other words, what sort of settlement was it?  What sort of people lived there?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, it wasn't an established area at that point in time.

MR LAX: So it was an informal settlement.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It was informally settled upon, yes.

MR LAX: How was it controlled, by which groupings?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It had its zones, criminals owned some, drug dealers owned part of it, UDF owned some, IFP owned some.  It was rather a rough area.

MR LAX: And which part did you drop her at?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I don't know which portion, or who was in control of that portion, but it was in the portion, in the vicinity of the Ghandi settlement.

MR LAX: Yes but here was a person whom you knew was an ANC operative.  If you wanted to make it look like she'd been dumped there and killed as part of the violence in that area, you would have wanted to drop her in an IFP area, so that she would appear to have been part of that violence?  I'm making this based on the evidence you've already given in relation to the answers to Adv Bosman.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman I didn't know which specific area of Bambayi was ANC or IFP.

MR LAX: So, you see the likelihood had to be, if you were going to drop her off at a place where there was violence, she would have to be somebody who couldn't show that she was from that area and therefore had got killed.  Do you follow my drift?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Not exactly, Mr Lax.

MR LAX: In other words, if I'm an IFP person and I find myself in the ANC part of Bambayi, then there's a good likelihood I may be killed.  Ditto if I'm an ANC person in the IFP area of Bambayi, and we know of countless instances of that.  Are you with me so far?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.  Yes, Sir.

MR LAX: So that if you wanted to drop her off in a place and make it appear as if that was part of the violence, you would choose the IFP part of Bambayi to drop her in.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Because once her identity became known, it would be known here was this person from a prominent ANC family.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, but the main reason was the vicinity and the closeness of home.

MR LAX: Yes but you also wanted it to look like it was part of the violence?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That was an added point that did come into our considerations.

MR LAX: What other weapons are there of a 7,65 mm calibre that you know of?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Do you mean handguns Sir?

MR LAX: Yes, or other guns for that matter, but handguns, let's assume it's a handgun.

<UNKNOWN>: ...(indistinct)

MR LAX: Correct.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Is it 7,65 not 6,75?

MR VISSER: Mr Lax said 6.75 and that's what confuses the witness that's why I tried to correct it, I think he's referring to a 7,65.

MR LAX: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just rephrase the whole question again, Mr Lax from the start.

MR LAX: If you'll just bear with me for one moment Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: While Mr Lax is looking ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Page 37 ...Sorry Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You can give him the page.

MR VISSER: Yes, it's page 37.

MR LAX: Okay now we're all on the same pages, as someone used to say in the Commission.  Yes, 7,65 sorry, I had it right and then my dyslexia got the better of me.

CHAIRPERSON: Just rephrase the question.

MR LAX: What firearms, handguns in particular, would you know of, of a 7,65 mm calibre?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I'm aware of various one, amongst which a 7,65 which comes immediately to mind, would be a Scorpion.

MR LAX: And for example at the time you chaps were involved in the Ndaba matter and the Shabalala matter, that's what was used?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct.

MR LAX: And in several other incidents we've heard about.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman, but at this point in time, we had no access to Scorpions.

MR LAX: Yes.  All I'm checking is that I am right that it is the same calibre as the ones that were used in other matters.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chair.

MR LAX: I want to just canvass with you the question of the place where you dumped the body and you've indicated that the body would be easily seen.  Did I understand you correctly?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: In my view, Sir, it would have been easily located, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when you say that, what do you mean?  By somebody driving past in a motor vehicle or somebody walking through the veld, or what?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, in my opinion it would have been walked upon, walked into, rather.

MR LAX: When you say "walked into", somebody walking through the veld would have seen it?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, the veld was criss-crossed, it was heavily traversed during daylight time.

MR LAX: When you say it was "heavily traversed", in what sense do you mean?  What would people have been criss-crossing it for?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Moving, walking from the villages towards the main road.

MR LAX: So from the settlement in the vicinity to the main road?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.