Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-15

MR VISSER: Page 37, lastly, Chairperson, of the bundle, I want to put to you the last portion of this statement seems to suggest that a written statement was taken from you and that what we have before us here, is a typewritten record or copy of that hand-written statement and that it was signed by you on the date specified here, what do you say to that?  You referred to notes which he was taking, I'm suggesting to you that he took a written statement from you, Mr Mbete.

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: So I'm asking you again, did you sign that written statement, sign it?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: I heard you earlier to say that you didn't sign it, but alright, you signed it.  And that statement will be in the possession of the TRC, wouldn't it?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: As far as you're concerned.  Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser.  Mr Mapoma, any questions?

MR MAPOMA: I have no questions, Chairperson, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi, any re-examination?

MR MALINDI: As the Committee pleases.

MR MALINDI: Ms Ngono, if Bulelo had been arrested in December 1987 and was returned to Lesotho, where would he have stayed?

MS NGONO: I think that if he had collaborated with them, maybe he was not going to go back to the ANC, but I'm sure he would have come to me.

MR MALINDI: Where did you know him to stay during the time that you used to see him?

MS NGONO: In Roma.

MR MALINDI: Is that the place that you used to visit frequently to see him and his other comrades?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR MALINDI: If after December 1987, he had gone back to that place, would you have seen him?

MS NGONO: Yes, I would have seen him because I used to go there.  I used to go to Roma.

MR MALINDI: And is it your evidence that if he was in Lesotho or around Roma in December 1987, you would have seen him or his comrades would have told you?

MS NGONO: His comrades would have told me because they came to me as they used to guide me on what to do, so they came to me and said that: "Thobeka, if Bulelo would have collaborated with them, the police would have raided our houses, so it's either they have killed him there and then."

CHAIRPERSON: What period are you talking about, if he had collaborated, is this after receiving, or is this after you were visited by the TRC investigator, or was this whilst you were in Lesotho, what the comrades were saying about this collaboration with the police?

MS NGONO: It was when I was in Lesotho.  They came to me and said that there were no raids in their houses, which means that Bulelo did not co-operate with them.  If he did, the police would have raided their houses.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I don't follow, because the only time we know about Bulelo collaborating with the police is when these applicants made an application for amnesty.  How did you come about collaboration there?  I want just to follow that.

MR MALINDI: I heard this in Xhosa, it means more co-operation than collaboration.  Perhaps the interpret can assist, because the way she puts it in Xhosa, is that if Bulelo had co-operated with them at the time they arrested him, then they would have been raided, whatever.  Perhaps the witness can once again explain it.  That was how I understood it.

CHAIRPERSON: No at some stage I was listening to Xhosa and it was not talk of assistance to the other, rather say to my Panel, and then I had to switch over to English so that if there is not something proper I should hear it English, so I missed out altogether on what was said in Xhosa, but could she repeat herself?  Because what I - whilst repeating yourself, I say what I do not understand is this, if there was co-operation or collaboration with the applicants, the police, that could have only been known after they had made their applications.  This is my understanding, don't say I'm putting it to you, but I just want to understand you properly.  And if you speak of co-operation with police whilst you were at Lesotho, I want to know the circumstances that gave rise to a discussion of that nature.  Do you follow me?

MS NGONO: Yes.  I'm talking about the cadres.  They said to me that if it happened that Bulelo was arrested and he co-operated with the police, their houses would have been raided, so because that did not happen, it means that if we did not find Bulelo, he was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I just wanted that clarification.  I'm sorry Mr Malindi.

MR LAX: Sorry, can I just clarify one thing, because I'm a bit puzzled.  This conversation with the cadres, when did that happen?  This conversation you're talking about?

MS NGONO: After he was arrested in March, after Bulelo was arrested in March.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Malindi.  Please continue.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Ngono, after Bulelo was arrested in March 1988, there obviously was concern about his whereabouts.

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR MALINDI: One of the concerns may have been that he was killed.

MS NGONO: We did not think that.

MR MALINDI: One of the concerns may have been that if he is arrested, the police will squeeze information out of him and they may come back to Lesotho to arrest some of his comrades.

MS NGONO: Yes, what we thought was that if they wanted information or if they got information from him, they would go back to Lesotho and arrest others.

MR MALINDI: After some time had passed and there were no raids, was there relief amongst yourself and other comrades that it means he has not collaborated with the police?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR MALINDI: Was it in that context that the question of possibly collaborating or non-collaborating arose in Lesotho?

MS NGONO: Yes, it was in that context, because they counted the time since he was arrested and there were no raids, so they concluded that he did not co-operate with the police and they would not just keep him, perhaps they have killed him.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Malindi.  Any questions from the Panel?

MR LAX: Just one from me, Chairperson.  After September and before February, you said that you would visit the house where he had lived from time to time.  What was the purpose of those visits?

MS NGONO: Sometimes I would help them out and do their washing.

MR LAX: So you didn't go there specifically to ask where your brother was, or if they knew anything about your brother?

MS NGONO: I saw that he was not there because I visited there several times and I did not ask them where my brother was, I did not ask the cadres.

MR LAX: Now if he had returned in the late part of December, or January, up until the time that you did actually see him, where do you think he would have gone?

MS NGONO: He would have gone to Roma.

MR LAX: ;   Do you think he would have visited Lindelwa?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR LAX: Did you ever ask her whether she had seen him during that time?

MS NGONO: Yes, and she told me that she does not see him, she doesn't even know where he is.

MR LAX: ;   Now when did you return to South Africa?

MS NGONO: December 1988.

MR LAX: And you returned to Port Elizabeth?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR LAX: And in that time you've only had this one visit that you know of of this person who works at Louis le Grange, or some other policeman who might have visited there with any information regarding your brother?

MS NGONO: Yes, my mother was also in detention at that time, so when my mother was in detention, she said that they asked her whether to bring Bulelo so that he can be a State witness in their case.

MR LAX: When was your mother detained?

MS NGONO: March.

MR LAX: Which year?

MS NGONO: 1988.

MR LAX: And do you know why she was detained?

MS NGONO: She was working with the cadres.