Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-10

JUNE CRICHTON: Mr Madikane I want to ask you two questions.  The first one just a short answer, were you able to speak to people in police cars in other areas through your radio?

UNKNOWN: Repeat?

JUNE CRICHTON: Can you hear me?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUNE CRICHTON: Were you able to converse or speak to people who were in police cars in other areas?  You could hear what was going on in NU 13 but could you actually contact them on your radio?

UNKNOWN: On that day there were cars all around and in Fort Jackson.  There were many people in NU 13.  The cars were only watching these people they could not even go into NU 13.  We could hear people from the cars not from the stations.

JUNE CRICHTON: And on occasion like this when there's trouble in an area do they not call in cars to come from other areas to assist?

UNKNOWN: I said that there were police from NU 12 and NU 13.  We were in NU 1 patrolling  our area.  We did not know that there was a problem but we knew that there were people who were lowering the flag and there were police to sort out that problem in that area.

JUNE CRICHTON: So I just want to clarify that you were not called in over your radio to come and assist at all?

UNKNOWN: No, we were never called.

JUNE CRICHTON: That's all thank you.

BONGANI FINCA: Mr Sandi?

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Madikane let me start this way, do you know the work of the Commission and very briefly can you please tell us what the duty of the Commission is?

UNKNOWN: No, I don't know the duty or the work of the Commission.

MR SANDI: Very briefly Mr Madikane our work as the Commission is to assist in the process of Reconciliation so that if there is a way what happened in the past people would forget and forgive.  That is our duty.  It is not our duty at all to try and find excuses to say that the people were supposed to do this and not that.  Our work is to get the truth from the people to open their hearts.  I'm just telling you briefly about our duty as the Commission.

UNKNOWN: I'm listening to you Sir.  If I was there I would tell you that I was there.  I'm telling you exactly what happened because I was never in that area.  The person who was with me can come here and tell you.

MR SANDI: Unfortunately we don't have time. I wanted to ask you questions so that we can get clarity about the incident but I will only ask you two or three questions.  As a person who is accused of being involved in this incident did you take any steps to try and show that these are only accusations?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I wanted to take steps as I've already said before I went to the person who was in authority saying that I want to challenge this but he stopped me.  I went to Mr Sewisa and told him the same thing.  He asked why I don't challenge it and I told him that I wanted to challenge this matter but they stopped me in the office.

MR SANDI: How did you plan to challenge this?

UNKNOWN: I planned to challenge it because I was accused of killing a person who I never met.

MR SANDI: Did you go to Gush's family to tell them that you have no idea of this?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I wanted to clear my name but the person in authority said that I must stop this.

MR SANDI: Who was in authority at the time?

UNKNOWN: I think it was a Mr Songusho.

MR SANDI: How long did you work in the police force at that time in the Ciskei?

UNKNOWN: I don't remember but now I'm in the police force for fifteen years.

MR SANDI: At the time of the bus boycott were you a policeman?

UNKNOWN: I was in college in Hamanskraal at the time.  I was not here I was in Hamanskraal College.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Madikane as I've already said we don't have time but I would have liked to ask you more questions so that we can get some clarity.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

BONGANI FINCA: Mr Madikane the last question.  How do you feel about what happened in Gush's family?

UNKNOWN: This was painful Mr Chairperson.  It is very painful because they lost their son but it is very painful on my side coming before the people here and being accused of something I wasn't even involved in.  I'm staying in Golden Highway and a person came from Tjolo and wanted to know where I was staying.  At the time he was speaking about this accusation.  He was sitting next to me and I think it was three to four years back.  He did not know me but he was speaking about my and one guy Vuyani was sitting next to me and he said that I had nothing to do with this.  This guy was only talking he did not even know me.  It is very painful to me because people in Mdantsane are saying these things.  I was in a course in Bisho the week before last when there was a shooting and I heard from Bisho that I arrested these people but I was in Bisho I was  not here in Mdantsane.   Even to-day I came from the course in Bisho.  I was accused of arresting these people but I was not there.  What I'm trying to say is that this is not the first time that I am accused.

BONGANI FINCA: What is your position?

UNKNOWN: I'm an Inspector Mr Chairperson.

BONGANI FINCA: So in other words you would be able to help us to answer this question from Gush's family that they want to know who killed their son.  Will you be able to help us?

UNKNOWN: I can't say Mr Chairperson because what was happening there it is clear that they were the police who shot them.  Up until to-day I don't have any information about that incident.  The person who shot him is quiet he's not saying anything.  The people said that the police were shooting at them.  I can't say that I will be able to help you.

BONGANI FINCA: Mr Sandi?

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Madikane if I'm listening to you clearly in your testimony especially in your last part of your testimony you are an unfortunate person because you are always accused of things you don't know about.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I'm an unfortunate person.

MR SANDI: What is the reason for this?

UNKNOWN: The reason for that is that I work very hard and I do my job very well.

MR SANDI: Did I hear you clearly in conclusion when you said that you are an Inspector but this Commission which is doing an important duty and which is well known in the whole country and in the whole world, you as an Inspector you don't know the duties of the Commission.

UNKNOWN: I don't know why I'm here Sir and I also said I don't know the duties or the work of the Commission.

MR SANDI: But you are an Inspector?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct.

MR SANDI: Thank you, thank you Mr Chairperson.