Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-03

MR RADEBE: We were patrolling in the middle of the night in Polla Park, combined with the other unit.  And police and soldiers came to harass the community.  And we agreed amongst ourselves that the police are harassing us and yet the IFP was attacking during the day.  We decided that we will shoot the police because of their acts.  I took my firearm, and the other men took their firearms as well, and we left with the intention of going to kill.  We shot indiscriminately, we kept shooting, until we got an opportunity to injure some of the policemen.  But one policeman I saw in the morning, I realised he was dead.  We decided to take the Caspir and use it for counter attacks to the hostel dwellers, because they had attacked previously during the day.  And one colleague of mine drove the Hippo.  If I remember very well, Nyauza was the name of the colleague who drove the Caspir.

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold on.  Mr Sibeko, the taking of the Caspir, would that not have amounted to theft?

MR SIBEKO: It would amount to theft Mr Chairman.  I beg leave it also be included.

MR RADEBE: We proceeded to the hostel, Katuza hostel that is.  We went, we got off, alighted from the Caspir and we knocked at the doors and the windows of the hostel, and we shouted they should wake up and open the doors, we are here to attack.  And as they woke up they switched on the lights and we started firing towards them and threw the petrol bombs into their room.  It took about some time because we did that to numerous hostel rooms, and we decided it's time to go back now.  We went back to the Caspir and we drove towards the first hostel, and we found them standing there amazed as to what was happening, and I do believe that they thought these were police and we started at shooting at them since they were not running away.  We shot towards them and we drove towards Polla Park.
	Just towards Polla Park we decided to stop the Caspir and alight from the Caspir, and walked into the neighbourhood.

MR SIBEKO: Now sir, when you started telling us about this incident, you said you were with some men, and throughout you only mentioned Nyawuza who had been the driver of the Caspir.  Who else was there?  Who else was part of the group at Polla Park?

MR RADEBE: We were together with Umshala, our cousin, the one who was deployed by ANC, plus Nyawuza and Dlamini.  Well I will not be in a position to furnish the real names of the other colleagues, because we used code names.  Taking into consideration the fact that this happened some time ago I may have, or I have certainly forgotten some of the names.

MR SIBEKO: Now in carrying out this attack, was there anything that you gained?  You as the group, that is the unit?

MR RADEBE: We did not gain anything.  But because there was this attack, continuous attack, that day, carrying from during the day towards the night, we sort of believed that we should take it upon ourselves to go and attack as well.  In other words we were satisfied by what happened.  They attacked and we attacked as well, because really they attacked us for no apparent reason.

MR SIBEKO: Are you aware whether were the people who were attacked at Katuza who might have died, or injured as a result?  That is when you got into Katuza with this Caspir.

MR RADEBE: As I've already explained that, when they switched, immediately they switched on their lights and we will see people inside, we will start shooting immediately, but as for me, to say that we managed to kill or injure how many, I'm not able to furnish that much information.  But somehow the following day we believed that there were some people who died.  As to the number, we are not sure, or to date, I don't know.

MR SIBEKO: So in the event that information is to be said to be true, you would also want to be given amnesty for such activity?

MR RADEBE: Yes, my request is that because of that atrocity that we committed I would like to be granted amnesty thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: But you're not too sure what crime was committed.  You yourself.

MR RADEBE: Please repeat your question.  The question is a bit ambiguous.

CHAIRPERSON: You are not certain what crimes were committed in that incident, are you?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I don't have evidence as to the people who were injured or who died as a result of that attack.  But as I've already explained there, subsequently as we were going around trying to get some information in relation to the attack previously, we did manage to know that there were people who died as a result.  The Inkatha Freedom Party leader did go to the hostel to inspect the damage after that.

CHAIRPERSON: This all occurred during 1991?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I think between 1990 and 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR SIBEKO: Who is the Inkatha leader who went to the hostel to inspect the damage?

MR RADEBE: During the day, the following day, the president, the apparent president of the IFP did arrive at Tokoza.  I'm referring to Mangasothu.

MR SIBEKO: Now about the other incident where the bakkie of Mr, or of the bishop, was attacked.  What happened?

MR RADEBE: We were in one of the places called Lusaka A, together with the soldiers, the SDU members that is, of Lusaka A.  We were contacted by the community that there was a van driving around shooting indiscriminately to the community members, and we had with us the AK-47.  We then left instantly to go after the van.  Fortunately we recovered the van and they were still shooting, and we had no choice but to shoot back at the van.  Bishop Khumalo's van that is.  Because he also had harassed to great extent the community, especially the youth of Tokoza.

MR SIBEKO: So, you just indicate that the said bakkie was attacked.  How, and what is the extent of the damage to the said bakkie?  How was it attacked?  What was used?  And what was the extent of the damage?

MR RADEBE: We did not burn it, but I think the way we were shooting at that bakkie was ...(indistinct) and I'm sure of the fact that it was highly damaged.  But they managed to escape still.  Then we did not subsequently discover as to how much damage it sustained, the vehicle that is.

MR SIBEKO: Is there any other thing that you would want to add that is, that relates to this application, that is the incidences that you have mentioned today.

MR RADEBE: As we are well aware that there is peace and stability in the community of Tokoza, I think if Khumalo himself, or his, the organisation that he was affiliated, and people that sustained injuries as a result of this attack, I would like to voice out this plea.  We should come together and reconcile in light of creating peace, this is essential for us to do.  To reconcile and put back the past and move on peacefully.

MR SIBEKO: And you also would agree with me that the same sentiment also goes to other people who might have been harmed or hurt as a result of all the activities that you were involved in during the times of violence?

MR RADEBE: What I'm trying to explain here is that all the families that lost their beloved ones during the time of this violence, I would like to plead with them that we should move on now and peacefully so.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I've got no further questions for the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chair, just one or two questions.  Sir according to the amnesty application on page 115, I'm referring to paragraph 11(b) Mr Chairman, do you have that?  You're saying there
"...I got an order as when needed.
Did you, who was, can you first of all tell me who was your commanding officer, or did you have a commanding officer?

MR RADEBE: As I was explaining, that the organisation of ANC had deployed people.  If there was a need and we were in a situation that we are able to protect the community, the gentleman called Mashana was the one giving instructions or orders to me.  In other words, Mashana was the one issuing orders to me.