Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-14

MR KOTZE: The events occurring in the guardhouse, could you sketch this to the Committee and could we just indicate to you Chairperson that the events as they appear in paragraph 18 of the application, it has appeared after consulting with the applicants on Monday that there are certain discrepancies.  Would you like me to make a proposition to you regarding what their testimony would be or could I just guide the witness through this?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that with regard to paragraph 18 on page 25 of the record?

MR KOTZE: Yes, page 25 carrying on on page 26 of the record.

CHAIRPERSON: I think lead him through this and if there are really radical differences then you have to deal with those.

MR KOTZE: Mr Chair I would just like to point out that when my turn arrived, the first applicant had already testified and very little could be done about that.  But could you please explain in your own words what had happened in the guardhouse?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Well I stood at the window and as Mr de Meillon had said, he passed below the window and stood at the door.  I look in through the window and saw that Mr de Meillon entered.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, can you slow down, you're going to fast?  So you looked through the window and he definitely did not, you observed that?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes that is correct, he passed under the window. Then Mr de Meillon stood at the door, I look through the window, I saw he entered, I immediately followed him, I entered the guardhouse, Mr de Meillon and the deceased became involved in a struggle.  I approached Mr Swart and I saw that he was drawing his firearm.  I grabbed him by the shoulder and the elbow.  I heard a shot go off, then I pushed Mr Swart out of the way and I ran.

MR KOTZE: Did the lights in the guardhouse go out at any stage?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes that is correct, the lights did go out.

MR KOTZE: What caused it according to your impressions?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I don't have an idea, Mr Chair.

MR KOTZE: And at what stage of the incident did the lights go out?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Well it was during the struggle between Mr de Meillon and the deceased.

MR KOTZE: How many shots did you hear in that guardhouse?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I heard one shot.

MR KOTZE: Could you perhaps give us an indication of the size of this guardhouse where this whole incident took place?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Well I would guess about four by four but I could be wrong.

MR KOTZE: After hearing the shot, what happened?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Well I ran out the guardhouse to the motor car where Mr van Zyl was working.

MR KOTZE: In the guardhouse did you pick up Mr Terblanche or Constable Terblanche's firearm?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No I didn't.

MR KOTZE: Was any attempt made to search or look for further firearms?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No we didn't.

MR KOTZE: Then you ran to the motor car and Mr de Meillon joined you there?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes that is correct Mr Chair.

MR KOTZE: When did you become aware that a firearm had been removed from the guardhouse to your waiting car?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Well only after the car had departed or pulled away.

MR KOTZE: Who made an announcement in this regard?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Mr de Meillon.

MR KOTZE: Did he also at that stage have the firearm pistol in his possession?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct, Mr Chair.

MR KOTZE: Mr de Meillon also had a wound in his forearm?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct, Mr Chair, he informed us that he had been shot.

MR KOTZE: Would you know who had shot him?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I don't have an idea.

MR KOTZE: The moment the shot had been fired would you say you were in a position to make a dependable observation about what had happened?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No Mr Chair, I was too afraid, I was scared and I ran away.

MR KOTZE: Okay, I would like you to focus on that very moment when the shot was fired which apparently had killed Mr Terblanche.  Could you tell whether the firearm had been pointed at him, whether it had gone off in the struggle, what were your personal impressions?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: My personal impression was that a shot had gone off while they were struggling.

MR KOTZE: Did you fire any shots in the guardhouse?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No Mr Chair.

MR KOTZE: When you were in the motor car did you remark anything towards Mr - did Mr de Meillon remark anything with regard to the shooting incident there to any of you?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes he made the observation afterwards to me and Mr van Zyl that he thought the guard had been shot.

MR KOTZE: You then went to Secunda, was Mr de Meillon in the motor car throughout that period?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes we departed from Devon to Secunda.

MR KOTZE: And then at Secunda you dropped him off?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct.

MR KOTZE: Was there any arrangement regarding the reporting of this incident to your structure of command?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: After we had dropped off Mr de Meillon we went to Mr Gerhard van Schalkwyk's house.  When we stopped in his yard he was already waiting for us and he told us that Mr de Meillon was already there, we had to return home, he would contact Mr van Schalkwyk.

MR KOTZE: That was Mr van Rensburg's house where you stopped?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes that is correct.

MR KOTZE: Did you at that stage know Mr Gerhard van Rensburg?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes I had only met him on the same occasion as Mr de Meillon.

MR KOTZE: Was he introduced to you by a rank?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes he was introduced as a general of the BWB.

MR KOTZE: During these night shooting and convoy protection operations and exercises, was Mr van Rensburg also there?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes he was in command.

MR KOTZE: What was the arrangement during the course of such an operation?  Who would be in command?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Are you talking about the exercises?

MR KOTZE: Well we are referring to AWB/BWB co-operation, who would be in command?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I take it it would be the person with the highest rank.

MR KOTZE: During this whole incident did you take any initiative in carrying out the operation?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No, Sir.

MR KOTZE: Who would you say was in command?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Mr de Meillon I would say, Mr Chair.

MR KOTZE: Do I understand correctly that although you had only seen him once he was then introduced to you and an announcement was made regarding his dependability and loyalty, you were prepared to undertake this kind of action with him?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct.

MR KOTZE: Why did you act in such a manner?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I believe it was out of fear for what we believed was going to happen and also to obtain the firearms to protect our wives and children.

MR KOTZE: You were then arrested and accused of murder and robbery with aggravating circumstances?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct, Mr Chair.

MR KOTZE: You were initially charged together with Mr de Meillon?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct.

MR KOTZE: And then a division of trials took place?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct, Mr Chair.

MR KOTZE: Testimony had been led regarding a .38 special bullet or projectile which had been found in the guardhouse?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct.

MR KOTZE: What is your knowledge of this?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: It was news for me to hear about it here.

MR KOTZE: And during the first trial, the joint trial where Mr de Meillon appeared, was there any reference to a .38 revolver bullet?