Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — 1997-12-04

MR MCADAM: : If you would look at page 4 the second paragraph.
"By means of the State Security Council arrangements were made that the JMS was addressed by members of the Government as well as the top structure of the State Security Council.   I can remember that at various occasions we were addressed by Botha, Malan etc.  During these visits it was stressed that the current security situation had to require drastic steps in order to control.  Enormous pressure was exercised by the ...
( it is impossible to interpret at this speed).  
I apologise I was just informed.  I will read this slower again.  
"On page 4 by means of the State Security Council there were often arrangements made that certain role players of the JMS were addressed and visited by political members, political figures and also the top structures of the political forces.  I can remember that we at the JMS at various occasions during this period was visited and addressed by, amongst others, PW Botha, Louis Le Grange, Magnus Malan  and Adriaan Vlok.   During these visits it was stressed that the security situation had to be revised and drastic actions was pleaded by these people to bring these unrest under control.  Pressure was exercised from the Government's side to act in a drastic way to neutralise activists and to help the security situation to normalise".
 Then we will look at page 5 which is paragraph 5 middle paragraph.  
"This situation was discussed at the JMS and it was clear that the normal legal options like detention and restrictions of political activists did not have the wished results, the required results".
 If we then go to page 6 the middle paragraph thereof.  
"At this stage pressure was exercised by the JMS and political figures on the security forces to bring about stability and to bring the situation under control".
 There is then reference to things that PW Botha and Malan said as well as things that other political leaders said, where things were said, 
...."like fire must be fought with fire" and "we are in a guerrilla warfare situation" and also a reference to the total onslaught and communist expansionism; the taking over that we are looking in the face and the western lifestyle as well as the well known black danger statements by means of the intensified JMS actions I gained some knowledge which indicated that the political activists of Pebco were a threat, a serious threat to the Government because their activities were causing chaos in the black areas".
I'll leave out a couple of sentences.
"It was decided to neutralise these activists by killing them".
and then he explained how they proceeded to eliminate these people.

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: Thank you I just want to know what is the question.

MR MCADAM: : I just want to put it to you that this does not correspond with the policy  of the SSC that they want to negotiate and make peace with these people.  This document of the Colonel, I think his rank is colonel, Colonel Snyman, I've read his submission, the reference you are making based on the paragraphs that the JMS was visited by political figures and during that stages they gave their opinions is based on Snyman's subjective opinion.  I think it was Mr Botha's management style and the management style of the security, it stood them in good stead that they did not stay in their offices in Cape Town and in Pretoria and looked at the increasing conflict from their ivory towers.  I think it was good for them that they made the time and that they sat down with the various officials, visited certain regions like in the Eastern Cape, talked to the officials who handled the situation who wanted to motivate them, who had to put their standpoint and to convince them that they had to make their contribution to stabilise the country.  I think it's the fact that political leaders participated in these discussions.  I was part of some of these discussions, not all of them, I'm not basing them on hearsay I was involved in some of these and not at one occasion Mr Botha and any of his people or officials said or referred to the elimination of people.  It was all about stabilising the situation, motivating people to stabilise the situation, motivating people to stabilise the situation.
 With respect I want to draw your attention that here in Snyman's submission there is no reference that an instruction had been given it's a perception he has in this regard.  I want to state it in a sentence which he started and he did not complete it.  On page 6 he started saying - 
"The decision to neutralise these four activists by killing them could not be taken lightly".
and it caused a lot of problems for me and he  was struggling with his conscience.
 And then on page seven the long paragraph 4/5ths from the bottom - 
"And then consequently I instructed them that some of the leadership elements from Pebco should be eliminated to stabilise the situation."
  He said I gave the instruction.  My point of view is that the contribution of political leaders and senior officials did not have anything to do with the climate in which people had to be eliminated or killed.  It had to do with motivating people who during a difficult time and with limited human resources and with international isolation to make a contribution to stabilise the country to make a contribution.  But this Colonel Snyman at that stage was 58 years of age and he was the commanding officer of one of the most important security branches in the country.  What surprises me is that he had made such a decision all on his own without feeling that his action was justified with the pressure from above.

MR TREURNICHT: Mr  Chairman with respect this debate can continue forever.  The information in this submission being put to the witness is saying what he's saying.  He decided and he instructed the people to be killed,.  With all respect what can this witness contribute to this.  It's already been stated what this person has said in his amnesty application.  We know what he is saying and my learned colleague cannot change this fact.  It is not clear what he is trying to get from this witness.  Could he just say unequivocally to this witness what he really wants.  Does he agree to what he is saying?  Does he just want a comment from this witness otherwise the question cannot be answered.

MR MCADAM: Just to determine why this person would refer to the JMS system established by the SSC.  Why he is mentioning pressure from members of the SSC if the SSC did not play any role in the factors he took into consideration before making his decision.

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: Mr Chairman I've just answered this question when I've just referred to that I can't add anything else thank you.

MR MCADAM: : In your own submission on page 39 you referred to violation of human rights by the security forces.  You cannot be denied, you saidthat many members of the public sector had deeply- seated and personal convictions which sometimes led to serious misunderstandings and various activities.  I'm putting it to you, you sketched a picture of a goverment with clean hands, a Government which will not use illegal methods and I want to know how did you come to the conclusion that the people who committed these illegal deeds that they did it because of subjective convictions?