Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR SWANEPOEL: It was not my responsibility to analyse the instruction and to trace it and to send the results to the client.  The work was done at the request of the client as well as done with commercial projects, the results were obtained and the client was informed and he dealt with it in the way he felt he wanted to.  I cannot speculate as to what the client did with it.

UNKNOWN: The client in this case was the Army?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Chaskalson?

MR CHASKALSON: So Doctor Swanepoel, what you seem to be saying is, despite a dental background the names of these toxins and/or other drugs were not known to you?

MR SWANEPOEL: That's not what I'm saying.

MR CHASKALSON: Well let me ask you that question and ask you to answer it then.

MR SWANEPOEL: The names of the organisms and they work is known to me or I could have read about it if they seemed vague to me but the point is that my perception in terms of the things that were being done there, be used for the purpose which I spelt out very clearly a while ago, and I was satisfied with that.

MR CHASKALSON: And you never questioned that perception?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: What percentage of the projects undertaken at the company were commercial and what percentage were from the Defence Force?

MR SWANEPOEL: Initially the capacity of the company was utilised fully with Defence Force projects.  By 1989/1990 we got it down to a 60/40 ratio, 60 military, 40 commercial.

MR CHASKALSON: So originally it was entirely SADF and then over time, and I think you said by 1989 ...[intervention]

MR SWANEPOEL: 1990.

MR CHASKALSON: '89/'90 it was 60/40?

MR SWANEPOEL: That's right.

MR CHASKALSON: And presumably this had something to do with an attempt to privatise the company?

MR SWANEPOEL: Obviously so, ja.

MR CHASKALSON: How was a company which was set up to be a front company supposed to fill this illusion if it had no clients?

MR SWANEPOEL: I cannot answer that question because I was not involved in the initial planning.  My involvement later dealt with the changes which had to be brought about and I think that was one of the big problems to bring about managerial changes, that's part of the reason.

MR CHASKALSON: Were the two types, and here I'm leaving out the in-house but possibly the three types of projects, were they distinguished in different manners in the financial reports?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: How would that be done?

MR SWANEPOEL: We received report-backs on a monthly basis from the clients regarding their time and their financing and they were dealt with in these compartments so that we could get to the percentage in terms of what the different liabilities were in the ...[End of tape, no follow-on sound] of that company.

MR CHASKALSON: Do you have any knowledge as to whether directions from the SADF were received as to what they wanted or would you initiate your own projects or would there be a combination of both?

MR SWANEPOEL: I believe that we received direct instructions from the client, the Army in this case or the Defence Force.  We were also asked general questions for example: "look at the following aspects" which included no specific aspects of which the company would have to take the research initiative.

MR CHASKALSON: And that broad instruction was always: identify substances and try and find antidotes to those substances?

MR SWANEPOEL: Within the context that I explained.

MR CHASKALSON: You wouldn't be able to tell us what sort of projects you actually did for the SADF would you?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: Was there a salary scale at the company, for instance, was the Managing Director, yourself, paid more than Doctor Immelman?

MR SWANEPOEL: I cannot recall it at the moment but yes, I think there would have been different levels.  Yes, there were post level structures in terms of personnel and the company.

MR CHASKALSON: And you would have been paid more money than a Director of a particular, say Doctor Immelman if we're taking an example of a person, or Doctor van Rensburg?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: How much more money?

MR SWANEPOEL: I cannot speculate now, I do not know and I cannot remember.

MR CHASKALSON: You were involved with all of the financial sides of the project?

MR SWANEPOEL: That's correct.

MR CHASKALSON: Would you be able to estimate as to what a basic salary or what the salary of somebody in the position of a Doctor Immelman or a Doctor van Rensburg would have been?

MR SWANEPOEL: I have not been prepared, I cannot speculate at this stage about this.  I would like to prepare.

MR CHASKALSON: It seems a strange question, that you shouldn't be able to answer.  I can understand that this was a long time ago and I don't mind if you don't give me exact figures but maybe you could just give us some sort of round indication.  For instance, Doctor Immelman and Doctor van Rensburg, if they were getting R4 000, I would have got R5 000 or if they were getting R4 000, I would have got R8 000.  Could you give us any sort of indication?

MR CILLIERS: Mr Chairman, at this stage I will just advise my client not to take a guess.  He says that if he gets the opportunity, it was not specified in his summons, where any indications were given of what he had to prepare in the extremely limited time that was given, that he had to prepare this aspect.
 No documentation was provided in this regard and if it is of such importance Mr Chaskalson, I would recommend that my client be given the opportunity to look at relevant documentation.  Mr Chaskalson most probably has it in his possession or Mr Vally, and that this be made available so that he could give you exact answers and that he is not expected to guess and speculate.

CHAIRPERSON: Does your case rest and fall on this aspect Mr Chaskalson?

MR CHASKALSON: My case doesn't necessarily rest or fall on this aspect.  I would just like to point out that one of the items requested in the notice is set out as: "Activities of Roodeplaat Research Laboratories (Pty) Ltd, previously Inter Laboratories insofar as they relate to the programme or any other activities.  We've now been told by the Managing Director that he practically doesn't know anything except for the financial side of the programme and I was just wondering if he could maybe help us in that manner.

CHAIRPERSON: Well he has given a reply that he would need to go and do research or try and see and then ...[intervention]

MR CHASKALSON: I would appreciate it if that information does come to hand, if we can get it in due course.

CHAIRPERSON: There has been an undertaking Mr Swanepoel.

MR CHASKALSON: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have a sense Mr Chaskalson in how long you are still going to be with the witness?

MR CHASKALSON: I think I am still going to be a fair amount of time but I think that at lunch-time we will be in a better position to assess how the questioning is going.  I don't anticipate in being much more than say an hour after lunch at the maximum.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, we can't afford that.  I must indicate very, very clearly.

MR CHASKALSON: I will endeavour to finish by 1 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR CHASKALSON: Doctor Swanepoel, I would like to draw your attention to a document which is numbered as TRC 26.  It has a heading
"Payments of Coast Projects"
If you could just indicate when you've located the document.

MR SWANEPOEL: I have the document.

MR CHASKALSON: Have  you seen this document previously?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: Do you have any idea of what this document is?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: On the second page of the document there are a number of project system codes, could you read those out for us please?

MR SWANEPOEL: Which page is this specifically?