Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR CURRIN: : Thank you Mr Chairman.   We are having difficultyin identifying with absolute certainty who was in
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that Kombi in Nietverdiend on that particular day.   It transpiresthat although we are able to say with a fair amount of certaintythat at least nine of the 10 names we submitted, disappeared fromhome on 26 June, we are unable to say with certainty that allof them were in the Kombi on 27 June because in fact there seemsto be a connection between this group and the Kwandabele 9.  It would seem that at least two of the names who disappeared onthe 26th were probably part of the Kwandabele 9 and were killedin Kwandabele and not in this vehicle.   We've had discussionsamongst ourselves, the various legal representatives as well asthe office of the Attorney-General, and it seems that with a fairamount of work during the course of the next month clarificationshould be forthcoming by the end of November.   So we are unableat this stage to say categorically who was in the Kombi on 27June, 1986.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you propose?

MR CURRIN: : It would seem that it is important to tryand establish, at least on the balance of probabilities, who wasin the Kombi on that particular night and we would propose thatthe matter stand down pending further investigation by the Attorney-General'sinvestigators.   They are at this moment in time busy trying toclarify the issue and come up with a degree of certainty as towhich were the individuals that were killed in Kwandabele andwhich are the individuals who were killed in Nietverdiend.   Wewould suggest that the matter should stand down.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Du Plessis?

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman we have no objection if whateverMr Currin does and ascertains helps this Committee to bring outthe truth, we support it fullheartedly.
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CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Mr Mpshe is there anything youwish to add?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman I do not want to reopen what wasdone before the adjournment Mr Chairman, but I've got a bit ofdifficulty in Mr Du Plessis' submission.   During the break Ihad the opportunity of asking him what the effect of the exactidentity of the deceased would have on his application and ifI remember well, his response was that their main concern is theage of the people who died in the Kombi in that if the age isnot fully determined it may have adverse effects on the application.  I want him to confirm that before I continue.

CHAIRPERSON: He has made that point in another way, I understandthat.   The question now is in order to identify the personalities,not of the age so much but as far as the identity of the individualsinvolved, there seems to be no clarity in that.    Judge Ngcobealso felt concerned at this stage whether we have informed theright people, the right relatives, if we haven't satisfied ourselvesas to who the victims were.   In that regard is there anythingyou wish to say?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman pardon me for this, because itworries me I have to talk about it Mr Chairman, on the questionof the age the birth certificates are available to determine theage...

JUDGE WILSON: : We don't know if those are the people sowhat value are the birth certificates Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman, the impression that one is boundto get by this type of submission is that there is a dispute fromthe applicants that the people who died in the Kombi are not thepeople that we killed.   I don't know how does
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this affect the application Mr Chairman?   Are we to determineexactly who died and if we are to do that is it said that it isdisputed that the 10 people who died are not the 10 people whowere killed by the applicants?   I'm a bit worried by the...

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman perhaps I can just make ourview clear.   Our view is that, and I have stated that beforethis Committee publicly, our view is that it is of importanceto determine the ages of these people.   It is also importantfor purposes of the Committee when giving amnesty, if the Committeeshould decide to give amnesty, that amnesty should be given inrespect of the death of certain individuals as far as that canbe ascertained.   We do not have a problem with that.   If theenquiry should place beyond doubt who the people in the Kombiwere, we don't have a problem because then we can be granted amnestyin respect of that.   If the result is that the people cannotbe identified, we will apply for amnesty in respect of the deathof the unknown person who were in the Kombi.   We say that thereshould be no reason whatsoever to preclude any further investigationsto find out the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Whatever the position, it seems that it cannotbe resolved at this stage Mr Mpshe, and we are then obliged toadjourn this hearing to another day.   Members of my Committeehave had consultation in this regard as to when we should resumethe hearing and while it is desirable to conclude a matter assoon as possible and without unnecessary delay, it's in the interestof all parties concerned that this matter should be finalisedas soon as possible.   The Committee is not in a position to dealwith this matter any earlier than the last week of February and
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will continue then, once it starts on 24 February, will continueuntil it is concluded, no matter how long it takes.  I thereforenow formally postpone the hearing of this matter to 24 February1997 at possibly this venue.   If there is going to be a changein venue I have no doubt we will all be duly notified.   I trustthat in the meanwhile this matter and any other matter which maybe capable of being clarified in the intervening period, the Committeewill appreciate that.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman may I perhaps request fromthe Committee one thing?   My clients, especially Mr Van Vuuren,in the incident of Make Makupe and Sifola, have been approachedby the media and there was a request from the victims' familiesas well that he indicate the specific place where the act tookplace.   We are a bit concerned that it might be of evidentiaryvalue later on if it's not regarded as part of this Committee'sproceedings...(end of side 2)...

MR DU PLESSIS: : ...part of the proceedings of this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that my brother Judge Wilson made itclear to me at least that we do require specific information inregard to where this incident occurred and with sufficient clarityalso as to where the interrogation took place.   It would includea pointing out by Van Vuuren or anybody else.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Yes thank you Mr Chairman I just wanton record that that's part of the proceedings, thank you verymuch.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR CURRIN: : Mr Chairman we would just like clarificationon
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one issue.   During the course of these proceedings a number ofpeople have been implicated through the ranks all the way up tothe State President, to the State Security Council.   We wouldobviously not want a situation to arise when we recommence inFebruary where people who have been implicated haven't been dulynotified in advance, and what we would just like to know is, isit our responsibility as representatives of the victims, to takethe initiative by approaching the Committee in regard to peoplehigher up who we would like to be here in the context of the questionof instructions and acting with authority, or is that somethingthat the Committee will automatically do in relation to thosewho have been implicated?   What are our responsibilities?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Currin, your responsibilities are to bringforth before this Committee all evidence which you consider tobe of relevance to this application and if there are witnessesthat you propose calling then you must do so.

MR CURRIN: : I see.