Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-22

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I am sorry, I was on the 4th floor where du Plooy was and he said these people are on the 5th floor.

CHAIRPERSON: From that, do I understand your offices were on the 4th floor?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: No, I was called by the officer, he said he wanted to speak to me.  And  when I arrived there he said: "There are people who have been arrested trying to skip the country, you will find them on the 5th floor".

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] 4th floor, Mr du Plooy?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Du Plooy was on the 4th floor.

MR STANDER: May I then take it that your office was on the 5th floor?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Yes, it was on the 5th floor.

MR STANDER: Is that one of the offices that looked out on the so-called Violent Street?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: There was a sticker put there.  I do not know who the person is who came with that sticker, it was just a sticker put there, nobody said it was Violent Street.

MR STANDER: Sir, the passage marked with the sticker, was that not known as Violent Street?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: It was known as Violent Street, we also knew it as Violent Street.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] office door, does it open onto Violent Street?

UNKNOWN: What's your office number in Violent Street, number 1 or number 2 or number 6?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: It was office number 1 on the left side when you were going to the kitchen.

UNKNOWN: So, you worked in number 1 Violent Street?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: No.

UNKNOWN: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Was your office in Violent Street?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Yes.

MR STANDER: Why was this passage called Violent Street Sir?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I was an investigating officer, then someone would say: "You see, this sticker is put here so we should call this street - this passage, Violent Street.

MR STANDER: Yes, but why?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Let me put it this way.  There was a certain chap who was arrested, then we were from the 4th floor, because we interrogated on the 4th floor, so we went up to the 5th floor and he said: "Why is this sticker here, is this Violent Street"?, then the passage was called Violent Street.

MR STANDER: Can you remember who this person was who gave this street this name?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I do not remember his name you know.

CHAIRPERSON: But the sticker saying Violent Street was already there.

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Yes, I myself found that sticker there, I do not know who put it there.

MR STANDER: So the version that you're giving us is that somebody else told us it was Violent Street, one the people being detained, it was just a rumour or was it something that happened while you were there?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I do not know whether you're referring to the person who came who was arrested, he saw the sticker and he said it's Violent Street or are you referring to 19?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Do you want to tell us that there was a person who put the sticker there and said: "Oh, this is Violent Street then".  The question is simple, did you hear it from somebody or was that person in that time at that place?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: Even the 19 who were arrested said that was Violent Street.

MR STANDER: You're not answering my question.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] saying is, somebody put up a sticker there which read Violent Street, thereafter they took up a person who'd been interrogated on the 4th floor and when he came into the passage and saw this, that person said: "Is this Violent Street" and thereafter they called it Violent Street.

MR STANDER: But Mr Chairman, on your question he said that when the sticker was there he had already been there.  In other words when he got there the sticker was already on the wall.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] he doesn't know how the sticker got there but he said: "Thereafter a person who was being interrogated, when he came and saw the sticker, said: "Is this Violent Street"? and that after that they called it Violent Street.

MR STANDER: That is true but my questions was: "Was that done by somebody who told you of an incident"? or was it something that he experienced himself, that was the question I asked.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you there when this person came up from the 4th floor and said: "Is this Violent Street"?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: This person was arrested before and I was with him in person.  He wanted to go to the toilet on the 5th floor and I took him to the 5th floor.

MR STANDER: So what you're trying to say to us is that you started with the name Violent Street after this person mentioned it?  Did you mention this to the other policemen and that's why it became known as Violent Street?  Am I understanding you correctly?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I would say so yes, because I was with him and he said: "This is Violent Street, why is the sticker here"?

MR STANDER: Do you know why that so-called sticker was never taken off the wall?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I do not know.

MR STANDER: Because Sir, fine, what procedure was followed when there was somebody who had to be interrogated?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: When I interrogated you, I would take you to the 4th floor where there are no people.  It would be myself and the white person who works with me.  Maybe sometimes one would just come in and sit down to listen at the discussions.

MR STANDER: [No English translation]

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: No, not in my presence, I do not want violence.

MR STANDER: Tell me, when the person didn't want to co-operate, what did you do to convince him to co-operate?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I would leave that person, go get the other one to carry on with the interrogation, I would come back to this one.  If the person refuses, he refuses, there's nothing I can do.

MR STANDER: Did you also offer tea to the person when you questioned him?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: No, we had tea at teatime, I would not be interrogating you while drinking tea.

MR STANDER: Did I understand you correctly, the kitchen is directly next to your office, is that correct?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: My office is on the 5th floor and I interrogate you on the 4th floor, I am far from my office.

UNKNOWN: ...[inaudible] about the kitchen.  The kitchen, is that next to your office?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: No, there's another office.

MR STANDER: So there's a kitchen, there's an office and the next office is yours, is that what you're saying to us?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: That was so.

MR STANDER: On the morning of the 6th of April 1986, is it correct to say that these 19 people in fact were first taken to the kitchen.

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I do not understand your question.  Are you asking before I reported for duty or after I reported for duty?

MR STANDER: Perhaps you must start with what time you started with duty.

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I reported at half past 7.  I reported to Captain du Plooy, from there he gave me the work I was supposed to do and I left after drinking tea at 8 o'clock.  He called me, I do not remember the time well but it was about 11 o'clock, he called me, he said: "Come to the office, I want to see you" and I then went to him.

MR STANDER: Were you already at that stage aware of the fact that these people were being held in the kitchen?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: No, at the time he called me I did not know that there were people in the kitchen.

MR STANDER: To move to the fourth floor, did you have to walk past the kitchen?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: No, you jump out of the lift on the 5th floor.

MR STANDER: But now if you go down to the 4th floor ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] evidence that he was outside the building and he was called back.  He didn't go down from his office, he was called back by radio.  Isn't' that so?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: That is so.

MR STANDER: My apologies Chairman.
	When you came back to the office you went to du Plooy's office and then you went to your own office?

SEGOPOLO PETRUS KOPI: I went only to du Plooy to hear what he wanted me for.