Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-02

MR MADASA: When you say you took them to the community, what do you mean by that?  Where was the community where you took them to?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: At about 7 o'clock in the morning there was a community meeting to discuss the incident of the previous day, then the community lost control and they said these children must be killed.

MR MADASA: At that meeting, how many people were caught who were there as victims?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: If I'm not mistaken we'd already caught three of them because at the 3 o'clock in the morning we caught two and the one we caught him at about five, there were three in number.

MR MADASA: Look the total of the victims is about 14, where did the others come from?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, just before we get to that.
	The three that you had caught, we know that one of them was Mokwena.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know his first name do you?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And the other one was?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I do not know his name, he has since died.

CHAIRPERSON: The third one?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The third one also Sir, I cannot tell his name, he also died.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Now the meeting of the community, was this the meeting of the street Committee?  Who was present at the meeting?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The meeting was addressed by the chairperson of the civic.

CHAIRPERSON: What was his name?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: His surname is Machinini, I do not know his first names.

MR MADASA: Sorry, at that meeting, that is now at 7a.m. in the morning, how many people in total had you caught?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Three people Sir.

MR MADASA: What about the rest of the victims?  Were they there or were they brought later?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: They were brought later.  We managed to get the others because of these three.  One of them was Buthelezi, one of the victims is Buthelezi.  His child said: "Dad, tell me what you ordered me to do, you sent me".

MR MADASA: So Buthelezi was one of the people you caught earlier on, he was amongst the three you first caught, Buthelezi?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MADASA: Which Buthelezi is that, is it Alfred Philemon Buthelezi?

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said that of the three people that you first caught you only knew Mokwena, you didn't know the other two.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The third one, the three people we arrested?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why do you say you know Buthelezi as well?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sir, I told you about three people we caught, then Buthelezi came later when Mokwena revealed his name.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: People who died are nine in number.  We caught three at first and the six victims were taken out by the first three.

MR MADASA: So those you caught point out others and those pointed more and eventually you had about nine people?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.  They told us who the rest of the people were and that is when we went to their houses to fetch them.

MR MOTATA: When you went to the houses to fetch them, were you accompanied by the three or how did you identify the other six?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We were in the company of the three, the three of them were there.

MR MADASA: Right, I'm interested in this Buthelezi.  Tell me about Buthelezi, was he a member of the ANC Youth League, Alfred Philemon Buthelezi, the one you said you heard his son also present there?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He was not a member, he was an elderly man, he was about 40 years old and he was a member of the community.

MR MADASA: So he lived at Moleleki?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, Sir.

MR MADASA: Did he have anything to do with the ANC Youth League, Buthelezi?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.  Because his child said: "Dad what do you say now, you said we should go and kill Blanko", so that is the reason why I say he had a relation with the ANC Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what is his son's name?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I do not know his son's name.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he killed as well, was the son killed?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, Sir.

MR MADASA: Could he be Thokozani Buthelezi, do you know if he's Thokozani Buthelezi?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: If the surname is Buthelezi, it might be him.

MR MADASA: Okay, go on.  You had all these people, fetched them from various places where they were, brought together, what did you do with them?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: These people were fetched from where they were and they were fastened on the hands.  I did not take part in that but some of the members of the self defence units and the commander Ntjebe, Ntjebe Ndondolo issued out orders to take these people to an open veld next to the river ...[intervention]

MR MADASA: At what stage did Ndondolo arrive because the earlier order was issued by Sugar?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.  Ndondolo arrived in the morning when Machinini was addressing the meeting, he arrived in the company of Manyala.

MR MADASA: Yes, carry on, what was Ndondolo's order?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I forgot something, just before I come to the orders issued out.  Some members of the ANC Youth League ran to Manyala to tell him that the SDU was harassing them, unfortunately Ntjebe went in at Manyala's place and they tried to run away.  He caught up with the and the were taken into the kombi and then he brought them with.
	One of them was Vips, he came with them in a kombi and they were taken out of the kombi and they were put with the other group.  Ntjebe and Manyala and Majola ordered the death of these people, these criminals.

MR MADASA: ...[inaudible]

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sorry?  Ntjebe, Manyala and Majola.

MR MADASA: Is Ntjebe the same person as Ndondolo?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, that's correct.

MR MADASA: Where was the killing ordered, was it a meeting or what was the situation when these three ordered the killing?   What was going on at that time?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: After the meeting of the community Ntjebe called the members of the SDU aside and he said Manyala commanded him that these people must be killed and then we were going to fetch them from a shack and then we were going to kill them in an open veld.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was he referring to now, was he referring to the 9 people that he had caught or was referring to the ANC Youth League members who had run into Manyala's house?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He was referring to the nine people in our custody.

MR MADASA: At that time when you were called aside, where were these people kept?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The community was angry about the death Bulelwa and Blanko and then we were told that they also must be killed.

MR MADASA: Where were they kept,  where were they at that time?  Where were you going to get them and kill them, where were they?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: They were in a shack Sir in block F.

CHAIRPERSON: So these persons were rounded up from wherever they were and put in a shack in block F.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.  Some of them were rounded up wherever they were and they were taken into the shack.

CHAIRPERSON: And there was a meeting at about 7 a.m. in the morning which was addressed by Machinini?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I think the meeting was held between half past six and seven, I'm not sure of the time but Machinini addressed the meeting and after the meeting that is where an order was issued out.  They were already nine, the order was that they should be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: At the meeting which was addressed by Machinini, who was present?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The residents and the members of the SDU were present.

CHAIRPERSON: Who came with the suggestion that these nine people that were caught had to be killed?