Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-14

MR KOTZE: Were any political meeting held between December 1993 up to the elections of April 1994?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: From an AWB perspective meetings were held and attended approximately every week as well as Conservative Party meetings.

MR KOTZE: How regularly were these AWB meetings held in Secunda?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Once a week.

MR KOTZE: And if you could just expand on the stature of the speakers, were they lower level speakers or high level right-wing politicians?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: High level right-wing politicians.

MR KOTZE: And what was the broader range of these meetings which you attended?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Most of the time it was that the National Party at that time was busy selling our country out as it had done with the then South West Africa and for us as whites there could be no sovereignty or own piece of land or territory.

MR KOTZE: And this message, did you only hear it from AWB leaders or also from the Freedom Front and Conservative Party speakers?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: From the Freedom Front as well as Conservative Party speakers.

MR KOTZE: And this message, did you believe it?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes I believed it.

MR KOTZE: With regard to AWB meetings, could you briefly indicate whether they were public gatherings or gatherings for members only?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: The meetings began as open gatherings which could be attended by anyone and after the public gatherings there were closed meetings only for AWB members and supporters.

MR KOTZE: These public gatherings, let us accept that non-AWB members also attended these meetings from time to time?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Well it depended from meeting to meeting, it could have been a hundred people or more.

MR KOTZE: Were you under the impression that the right-wing politics were firmly established in the environment in which you lived and worked?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes that is how it appeared to me.

MR KOTZE: Could you briefly focus on the atmosphere before the elections took place on 27 April 1994?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I think the atmosphere before the elections was one of insecurity, we were all very uncertain of what would happen to us after the elections and that is why we attempted to politically ensure that there would also be something left over for us at the end of the day, a sovereign Volkstaat where we could maintain our norms.

MR KOTZE: Did you believe or what did you believe would happen on the election day?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I believed that we were on the bring of a civil war and I think that many other AWB and right-wingers believed this.

MR KOTZE: On local government level, were any notices given out amongst the public in Secunda regarding what could be expected with regard to the election?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: We received notification of those things which we would need during a civil war and we all believed and we still believe that this came from the local town council.

MR KOTZE: This document to which you refer, is this the document which appears from page 57 to page 59 of the bundle?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes that is correct.

MR KOTZE: At that stage when it's mentioned, the aspect of fleeing, you and your family must flee, there is no time to pack, did you believe that this evaluation was not correct and I'm referring to page 59, the introduction?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Chairperson, I believed that on the day of the election there would be no time for packing, we would have to leave our things and flee.

MR KOTZE: After a number of guidelines are provided, the writer ends off with "May God help and protect us".  Did you have any reason to believe that this, which appears to me to be a very earnest and serious plea for protection was ungrounded?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No.

MR KOTZE: During these AWB meetings or gatherings, was any indication given regarding how the AWB wanted to organise itself in the event of problems which may originate?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Chairperson, we had safe houses, as we called it, where we would have taken our wives and children in such an event and where we as the men would protect them.

MR KOTZE: And when was it believed that this event would take place?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: We believed that this would take place on election day.

MR KOTZE: So the idea of the safe houses was that women and children would gather there and that some of the men would then protect them?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes that is correct.

MR KOTZE: Which weapons did you and the other members of the AWB have available to you to carry out these duties?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Most of us had handguns.

MR KOTZE: And which weapons did you believe were in the possession of the enemy of that time?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Semi-automatic combat weapons.

MR KOTZE: And did you believe that the weapons at your disposal would have been effective against the power which you believed existed?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No.

MR KOTZE: If you could briefly sketch the then structure of the AWB as it existed in Secunda, were there any ranks and who occupied these ranks?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Well our chief commandant for the region was Commandant Boshoff, then there were two other commandants below him.  Our commandant was Ochert van Schalkwyk and below him was Lieutenant Flip Marais and then it was me and my fellow applicant Mr van Zyl.

MR KOTZE: Did you occupy any rank in the AWB?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: No.

MR KOTZE: The ranks which you have mentioned sound like military ranks, could you indicate upon which basis this rank structure functioned within the AWB?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: As far as I know it was very similar to that of the South African Defence Force.

MR KOTZE: The organisation as such, was it simply a social gathering of people who shared the same political objectives or was there a method according to which military methods would be used in the AWB?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: We addressed our seniors according to various ranks and saluted them as one would do in the defence force.

MR KOTZE: And if there had been requests which were issued did you regard it as a request or something stronger.

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I regarded it as an order.

MR KOTZE: Was at any stage a discussion held regarding the obtaining of automatic rifles to protect the safe houses?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes.

MR KOTZE: When did this happen?  If you could just sketch the circumstances briefly?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: It was approximately two weeks before the incident during which the victim died.

MR KOTZE: And who did you talk to at that stage?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: I was attending a meeting at Mr van Schalkwyk's house, he spoke to us and there were other members present there.

MR KOTZE: And you and Mr van Zyl were friends, both personally and professionally?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: That is correct.

MR KOTZE: And he was also a member of the AWB at that stage?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes that is correct.

MR KOTZE: Who ultimately introduced you to Mr de Meillon?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Mr van Schalkwyk.

MR KOTZE: And you said this took place two weeks before the election?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Yes that is correct.

MR KOTZE: In which capacity was Mr de Meillon introduced to you?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: He was introduced to me as a commandant of the BWB.

MR KOTZE: Was any indication given regarding his loyalty towards the Boer cause and any other such issues?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Mr van Schalkwyk told us that De Meillon was very trustworthy and loyal to his cause.

MR KOTZE: And were any instructions given to you regarding assistance that you should give to him and the BWB?

EDWARD WILLIAM HOLDER: Mr van Schalkwyk told us at this stage that there would be opportunities and times during which the AWB and the BWB would have to co-operate.