Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-04

CHAIRPERSON: This is an application for amnesty of Mr Mondli Wiseman Ngxongo, and that is spelt N G X O N G O.  The panel consists of the following members:  on my right-hand side, Advocate Francis Bosman, on my left-hand side, Mr Ilan Lax, and I'm Judge Sisi Khampepe, who is chairing this hearing.
	This application for amnesty is connected with the application of Mr Romeo Mbambo, who has already appeared before this committee in respect of various incidents for which he applied for amnesty in the hearings that have become known as the Caprivi hearings. 	The hearings in respect of the Caprivi hearings were held at various places across the length and the breadth of our country.   
	The first hearing was held in Richards Bay, wherein incidents relating to that particular region were dealt with.   
	The second hearing was in Pietermaritzburg, which dealt with the incidents affecting that particular area.   	
	The third hearing was in Ermelo, and the matter of Mr Japie Thalede was heard in Ermelo, but it was only in respect of the applicant, Mr Mbambo.   
	So, in respect of Mr Mbambo's application for the killing of Mr Thalede, he has already given testimony.  In his testimony and in his application, he alleged that Mr Ngxongo was present when he shot Mr Thalede.   We are today to hear the evidence of Mr Ngxongo in support of his own application for amnesty for the killing of Mr Thalede.
	Will the legal representatives of the parties involved in this hearing kindly place their names on the record?

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Thank you, Madam Chairman, members of the committee, my name is Johan Oosthuizen, I am an attorney from Nelspruit, I'm a local attorney from Nelspruit, from the firm Du Toit Smits Attorneys, and I represent Mr Ngxongo in this matter.   Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Oosthuizen.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Chairperson, members of the committee, my name is John Wills, I'm a attorney from Pietermaritzburg, I represent the implicated party, Mr Romeo Mbambo, in these proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he an implicated party or is he a co-applicant?

MR WILLS: Well, he could be either.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: I'm Ms Thabete for the TRC.   Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Oosthuizen, are we ready to commence hearing Mr Ngxongo's evidence?

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr Ngxongo going to give evidence under oath?

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngxongo, will you please rise to take an oath?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: (sworn states)

MR OOSTHUIZEN: With permission of the members of the committee and Madam Chair, I will proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: You may do so, Mr Oosthuizen.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.   Mr Ngxongo... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Oosthuizen, before you proceed, we do not want to make the same mistake that we did with Mr Sambo.   Will you please bring it to our attention if you feel at any stage that Mr Ngxongo needs a break, we wouldn't like to be seen to be insensitive to his plight.   We are aware that it is five o'clock now and he might actually feel fatigue as he proceeds with his evidence-in-chief.   We would like, however, to conclude his evidence-in-chief, if possible.   However, if it is not so possible, please bring it to our attention.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Thank you, Madam Chair, with permission of the committee may I just get instructions from my client on that point?

CHAIRPERSON: You may do so.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Thank you.   Madam Chair, thank you, we can proceed, it's my instructions from my client that he is indeed capable and fit to proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Oosthuizen, you may proceed then.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.   Mr Ngxongo, can you, just in brief, tell us about your background, where you were born, where you grew up, what was your childhood like?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: I was born at Umlazi Township, I grew up there, I started there or I attended school there, that's where I matriculated.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Can you tell us, your father, what - did he play any political role in your life?

MR LAX: Mr Ngxongo, sorry to interrupt you, do you think you could speak up a little bit, it's difficult for the people in the audience to hear you and if you speak softly, the interpreters won't hear you either, just use a louder voice if possible.   Sorry to interrupt you.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: If I can just repeat my question, your father, can you, just in brief, tell the committee what kind of political figure, if any, did he play in your life?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: My father was a member of IFP at Umlazi and he was an active member.   This is what led me to be a member of IFP at Umlazi as well.   When time went on, I had numerous problems from my peers, even within the organisation, and in the community we didn't grow up liking one political organisation.    There were other guys who were not involved in some disobedience acts like beating teachers, and there were others who were not like that, and we used to call other youth that they were "amatlabane"(?), meaning they were belonging to an ANC.   We never liked that group.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Okay, just to interrupt, can you just inform us, did you at any stage accompany your father to any relays (rallies(?)) of a political figure?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: Yes, I used to accompany my father, even in IFP rallies.    I had a friend who was a policeman, his name was Musandi Mali, he was a little bit older than me, but he used to come to my house, and other people used to be amazed that why he used to like me so much, and sometimes I will drive his car and other boys will have a problem about that, they wanted to know why I was associating myself with him.   I think this is what led them calling me an informer, an askari or informer.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Tell the committee, were you also a member of the IFP?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: As I've mentioned before that I ended up being an IFP member, since my father was.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: When was that?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: As from 1983, but I only had a card in 1987.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Your best friend at school, you mentioned the name of Msandile Sabilo, tell us about him?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: Msandile Sabilo was a son of a prominent member of IFP, and he was also working as an MP member in Kwazulu, and most of the time people will see me relaxing at Sabilo's house and his boys.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: And your IFP card, are you still in possession of it?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: I lost my card over the weekend, but it was going to be expired anyway on Tuesday and I have to apply for a new one.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Can you tell us about your relationship with one Sipiwe Mbuyane?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: Sipiwe Mbuyane was a young guy who was very active, or who was an active member of IFP in Durban South region.   Durban South region includes Umlazi, Kwamashu, Gomakutem, Lamontville.   We were friends.   I think we started being friends towards the end of 1988, beginning of 1989.   He also experienced problems from ANC youth.   He survived too many problems or attacks from the youth.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Was he also a strong and active member of the IFP?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: Yes, he was a member of the IFP and also a member of a hit squad, he was a leader of the hit squad in Kwazulu in South Region of Kwazulu-Natal.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: So one of your - you are saying one of your best friends was a leader of the IFP hit squad, is that right?   Okay.   What was the purpose of the hit squad, what were their duties?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: Their main duties were to attack or to try and dismantle activities which was launched by ANC, because ANC was anti IFP.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: And did you supported these acts?

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: I supported this, because I was a member of IFP and I have been harassed by ANC, therefore I would do whatever it took to do the same to them, the ANC.