Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-20

MR NEL: Did you see any other vehicles leave?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: As I already said, there used to be cars all the time there.

MR NEL: My question was did you see any other vehicles leave when the vehicle with the body left?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Miyeza's car drove off and then after that the second car followed.

MR NEL: Where was Mr Coetzer at the time?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: He was there.

MR NEL: Well where was he, what was he doing?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't know what he was doing but he was there.

MR NEL: He was there, but you don't know what he was doing, was that because you didn't see him?  Was that the reason for not knowing what he was doing?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: He was there but I don't know what he was doing.

MR NEL: Is the reason that you don't know what he was doing because  you didn't see him, but you knew he was there?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I saw him, but I don't know what he was doing.

MR NEL: Well Mr Mbane, let's get straight to the point, you say in your statement
"Her body was taken out by Miyeza, Lawrie and Coetzer."

CHAIRPERSON: Could you give us a reference to that please, Mr Nel.

MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, that's the same paragraph, paragraph 44 on page 131, bundle 2.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR NEL: Do you see that, Mr Mbane?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR NEL: What is your comment on that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It might happen that there's a mistake again.

MR NEL: Well did Mr Samuel make the same mistake on page 2163 of the record, when he put it to Mr Baker
"Mr Jimmy Mbane will say ..."
Sorry Mr Chairperson, 2163 of the record, three-quarter way down the page.  Mr Samuel put it to Mr Baker:
"Mr Jimmy Mbane will say that Mr Miyeza, Mr Lawrie and Mr Coetzer, in fact had removed this body from the base."
Is that also a mistake?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is also wrong.

MR NEL: I don't want to follow the line of questioning of my colleagues, but you heard Mr Samuel putting this to the witnesses and in fact he put it to other witnesses as well, you did not correct it, is there any reason why?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: There is no reason.

MR NEL: In fact, you say on page 1825, once again Mr Samuel put it to, this time another witness, Mr du Preez
"Mr Mbane will say ..."
on page 1825 of the record:
"Mr Mbane will say that he was present when the body was removed from the room and put into the motor vehicle, do you recall that?"
then he goes on and says:
"Or he was able to see when the body was removed from the room and put into the motor vehicle."
Is that correct what your attorney put to the witness, Mr du Preez?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I was present when the body was put in the car.

MR NEL: And yet you say it's a mistake when you say in your statement that Mr Coetzer was present.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It might happen that it is a mistake.

MR NEL: How big was this body to your recollection, Mr Mbane?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It was quite big.

CHAIRPERSON: It's a very difficult question to answer, Mr Nel.

MR NEL: I will rephrase that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want dimensions or what?

MR NEL: Was this body big enough to fit into a Nissan Skyline, in the boot of a Nissan Skyline, according to you?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: The body did fit in that boot.

MR NEL: Well once again on page 1830 of the record, Mr Samuel put it to Mr du Preez that
"Mr Mbane will say that he looked at the body and it would have been virtually impossible because of the size of the body, to put it into a Nissan Skyline, the boot especially of a Nissan Skyline."
According to what I can remember I have already mentioned that I cannot remember whether it was a kombi or the Skyline.

CHAIRPERSON: But you take what Mr Nel has just read to you now, Mr Mbane, and this was put by Mr Samuel to Mr du Preez when Mr du Preez was given evidence and he says, this is what Mr Samuel says to Mr du Preez, that you
"Mr Mbane will say that he looked at the body and it would have been virtually impossible because of the size of the body, to put it into a Nissan Skyline boot."
Now forget whether it was a kombi or that, what is your comment on that actual statement, did you tell Mr Samuel that the body was too big for a Nissan Skyline boot?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, I did.

MR LAX: Then why have you now just conceded that it could have fitted into the boot?

INTERPRETER: Can you please repeat your question.

MR LAX: Why have you now just conceded and agreed with the statement that it would have fitted into the boot?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't understand your question.

MR LAX: Well you've just agreed with the Chairperson that you told Mr Samuel that the body wouldn't have fitted into the boot, however a few minutes ago, Mr Nel asked you "Would the body have fitted into the boot?"  You said "Yes."  Do you understand?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, I understand.

MR LAX: So we're asking you to explain why you agreed with Mr Nel when you had already told Mr Samuel that it couldn't possibly fit in the boot.  Did you just forget that you told him that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It might happen that I've forgotten.

CHAIRPERSON: And also, Mr Mbane, hasn't the Skyline got quite a big boot?  A Skyline is one of the bigger Nissan models.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, it's got a bigger boot.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel?

MR NEL: Just to get back for a second, Mr Mbane, to when the vehicle with the body left, are you able to say whether Mr Miyeza left with that vehicle or did he leave in a separate vehicle?  I'm not too clear on what you said on that point.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: He left with the car that he came with.

MR NEL: And that's not the same car carrying the body of Ms Kubheka?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No.

MR NEL: Can you recall or are you able to say whether he left first  or did the vehicle carrying the body leave first?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: If I can still remember well, Miyeza left first and then the second car followed.

MR NEL: Now I might have my notes wrong, but didn't you say yesterday that Miyeza followed the white man's car?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: If I can still remember well, Miyeza left first and then this car followed.

MR NEL: Mr Chairman, perhaps I could just be corrected on that, I seem to have in my notes that Miyeza followed the white man's car.  He specifically said the white men's car.  And as I say my apologies if I'm incorrect, that is how I noted it down.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, maybe I can assist, I can recall clearly that he said that Miyeza left first.

MR SAMUEL: According to my notes he says one car followed the other, meaning that Miyeza was in front of the other car.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say "one car followed the other", then it could mean either one.

MR SAMUEL: No, he indicated, the way I understand the evidence was, Miyeza left first and then the car with the body followed.

CHAIRPERSON: This is my note, I'll read it here.  "We were surprised.  They went in and out of the room.  After some time Miyeza arrived.  He spoke with the whites.  Simon went to the kombi, Dube and I were on the veranda.  Saw deceased being dragged on a blanket, put in a car.  Car drove off and Miyeza followed in a car.  Are you confusing this with another incident?  This was the first operation, etcetera, etcetera."  That's my note.

MR NEL: My notes are not so ...(intervention)

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: If I can still remember, it is Miyeza who left first.

MR NEL: Well you know we must ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I know that when, I think, Mr Visser was cross-examining he did say that Miyeza left first, but this is the notes of his evidence-in-chief.

MR NEL: Yes, in your evidence-in-chief you said, which we've established now, that the vehicle carrying the body left first and that Miyeza followed the white man's car, is that incorrect?  Or did you make a mistake yesterday?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It was Miyeza who left first.