Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

CHAIRPERSON: I think we're ready to hear the next application.  I see before me Mr Mbandazayo, it's the application of Samson Zongizile Tuis.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.  Correct Chairperson, that's the application ...(indistinct - speaking simultaneously)

CHAIRPERSON: I think let's do the formalities and place ourselves on record.  I am Motata from the Transvaal Provincial Division.  I will be chairing these hearings.  On my right I have my brother Judge de Jager, also from the Transvaal Provincial Division.  On my left I have our colleague, Adv Sandi, from East London, Eastern Cape Province.  Will the legal representatives do the same?  I will start with the legal representative of the applicant.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee.  My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo and I'm representing the applicants in this matter.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.

MR COETZER: Honourable Chair and Members of the Committee, I am Mr Coetzer from Vermaak and Denis a legal firm in Bloemfontein and I am appearing on behalf of the victims in this matter and I would like to address the Tribunal after everyone has been introduced.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Coetzer.  Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson, I'm Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo, in which language is your client going to testify?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sotho, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)  I believe somebody wants to say something from my left.

MR COETZER: Honourable Chairperson, I thank you for granting me the opportunity.  Before we commence the proceedings there are two points that I would like to address you on.  I have been given instruction on behalf of the TRC to appear for the victims in this matter.  However, no victims have arrived and I do not have any further instructions, therefore I would like to request to be excused from these proceedings, but I would like to address you on the following matter which I also have before the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MR COETZER: Thank you Chair.  Chairperson, I have also received instructions in the application of Mabanu Ernest Malunga Pudumo, to represent the victims.  Who has arrived is Jane Tjali, a victim.  The applicant has however not applied for the incident in which she was involved because they were already found innocent in the criminal trial and thus she has been incorrectly notified that she should be present today.  Therefore, there are no further instructions from any other victims to take this matter any further and I would then request that you excuse me from these proceedings.  I will however provide you with my contact number at my office, so that you can contact me if necessary.  As it pleases you.
	And then Jane Tjali, I would also request that she be excused because she is not involved in the proceedings then.  As it pleases you.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Coetzer, I would just like to know from you, you have spoken to Jane Tjali.  According to your judgement as you discussed the matter, they may have been found not guilty then, but would you say that she was the victim of a crime which was committed with a political objective, or was it simply a regular crime?

MR COETZER: Chairperson and Members of the Committee, I would not be able to make any statement regarding that.  It would appear from the documents in my possession, that it was simply a regular crime and it would appear that there was no political objective involved.  I know that is to the detriment of my client at this stage, but that is how it appears to me from the documents.  As it pleases the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Coetzer for informing us about the instructions you received and the status of those instructions at this juncture, that no victims have come forward and quite honestly, we don't see any cogent reason why we should detain you here and not recuse you.  You are well recused, Sir.  Thank you very much for having attended and heeded the instructions from the TRC, they are very valued and your co-operation is highly appreciated.

MR COETZER: Chairperson, Members of the Committee, I thank you.

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members.

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: For a moment, I want to make a request to the Committee.  This is my request.  We filled the applications for the amnesty and we were three, with people whom I committed this operation with.  Those forms were returned and then when they returned, I was the only one who received receipt of acknowledgement, the third one appeared as a person who would appear here as a witness, so I'm asking as to whether, Chairperson, how are you going to deal with this matter?

CHAIRPERSON: Firstly, Mr Tuis, what happens in this process is that we regard every applicant individually.  Firstly.  And we are enjoined by the Act that if the incident which we deal with, relates to more than one person, we shall have all persons who were involved in that incident.  I am aware of what you are saying and I made inquiries last week Thursday at our offices in Cape Town because I was there at present and they told me that they cannot find any of those applications because I wanted them all and they could find none.  The result is that you come before us and we have your application.  We shall hear you and the one who comes as a witness, we shall deal with that problem when we get to that witness of yours, is that okay?  Because it's not your personal problem, is it, that their forms have not been received?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: No, Chairperson, it's not my problem, it was just a question.

CHAIRPERSON: And looking at my documentation, the contents of my documentation here says there is an application, I don't know whom it relates to, I can find that out quickly, is that that one has been refused and that has been referred as the one on page 19, Mologwai, that one has been considered and refused, but it is still in our possession here.  I don't know when that was heard and refused.  Look at page 15 Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson I'm looking at page 15.

CHAIRPERSON: And I'm also looking at the index.  It will come as 4, saying application of refused co-applicant, do you have that?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But to nip that problem in the bud, let's ask Ms Mtanga what the status is.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, the status of the application of Mr Mologwai is that it was refused and the letter was sent to the prison where he is and it has been merely filed in this bundle for the Committee's reference on the facts that were submitted by Mr Mologwai.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand about Mologwai?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: I don't understand, Chairperson.  A form appeared in regard to Mr Mologwai.  What did not appear is ...(indistinct) application.  The prison authorities told us that they found Mologwai's application but they could not find Peleku's application.  I don't understand clearly what is happening.

CHAIRPERSON: Please repeat yourself.

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: The form which was found, I was told it was Mologwai's application form.

CHAIRPERSON: Told by whom?

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: It is the person who was arranging our papers in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, proceed.

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: Peleku's application was not found, he appears as a witness, not as an applicant in this incident because we were three.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm saying I did make those inquiries and they said there is no such form with our offices, in other words what it meant is that it was not received.

SAMSON ZONGIZILE TUIS: It's okay, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, just to add, I'm not sure whether this application which is here relates to the same incident, I don't know.