Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

MR DE KLERK: I would firstly like to emphasise on this question, as with the others, that obviously that is absolutely unacceptable. It falls outside the parameters of anything which was ever authorised or intended by government policy, government decisions, or any reasonable interpretation. Surely when people commit a crime they try to cover it up, and if it wasn't for amnesty these people, if these facts are true, should have been charged. And where similar facts were uncovered in the past, they were charged, they were taken to court and they were convicted if the evidence was sufficient for a conviction. So as far as that part is concerned once again it falls outside the parameters of any reasonable interpretation.
If, with regard to the other aspect of your question, namely a handful of operatives, I don't want to be semantic - a handful out of 400,000 or 500,000 can be quite a lot in relation to 4 or 500,000, I'm not saying it was only three or four or six people, it might have been 200 people involved, and in the actual implementation we now know from amnesty implications that there were many more involved and that they are also applying for it because they were drawn into this. But whoever planned it was not planning it, within my knowledge or experience, with government approval either tacit or overt.

MR GOOSEN: How is it that such senior police officers on so many occasions could so seriously misinterpret government or state policy in this regard?

MR DE KLERK: Speaking about my presidency first, there is no basis on which any senior police officer or junior police officer could have been under the impression that it was okay in any way whatsoever to do this type of thing. One of the first things I did was to call the top police officers from across the country together and to say that this is the end of the government asking you in any way whatsoever to be politically involved or to advance any political cause or to obstruct any other political cause. You are here to safeguard the lives and property of all South Africans to investigate crime and to bring people to court. That's the first point I want to make.
There were clear Cabinet guidelines for secret operations and in my presidency those guidelines were managed to be brought to the knowledge of everybody. 
As far as the situation under my predecessor is concerned there was almost a transfer of strong authority to security systems. Once again, and I'm not now blaming my predecessor he must speak for himself, I was there as an ordinary Minister of Education and leader of the National Party in the Transvaal on the security council, I can just say this type of planning, this type of it's okay, has never been discussed, it was not the atmosphere in which discussions took place on the State Security Council. It was broad strategies, I referred to it in one of my replies, it was broad strategies, this is what we would do, policy decisions which cannot be interpreted in any way whatsoever as authorising these unlawful acts resulting in these atrocious violations of human rights.
So, there were phases, and I would say that in the earlier phase, before - as a result also of advice, influence and assistance from the security forces pushing us politicians to say we need a political solution, a military solution isn't going to be the real solution, we started to make progress with regard to a negotiated solution to end the revolutionary onslaught on the one hand and to create, from our side, a situation where all these restrictions could be lifted and where the whole situation could be normalised in our country.

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, I'm just seeking a little bit of a clarification. When you called the officials, police officials and said to them there should be an end, an end to what? What was happening that made you think it is important to put an end or to tell them that they should put an end to whatever?

MR DE KLERK: No that wasn't an end to atrocities or an end to killing people or that, it was a statement to bring across to them that hitherto they have been instruments, within the framework of the policy, of fighting against the ANC, of fighting against the PAC and in that sense of the word they've been drawn into the political debate and they were seen as instruments in the hands of politicians, being used politically to oppose other political parties, to suppress the activities of other political parties, that is what was coming to an end. Their position, they were taken out of the political arena, and that is the essential message which I brought to them and which I also brought at a similar meeting to the top hierarchy, once again about 400 top officers of the SA Defence

<UNKNOWN>: orce. I then started to dismantle the special security apparatus which has been built up over the years and to normalise the role of ordinary civilian departments again and took them out of all activities where they were drawn into decision-making processes, planning processes with regard to the line function activities of other departments.

CHAIRPERSON: So sorry, I have to consult with these bright people.

MR DE KLERK: I could use it as a smoke break if you..... (General laughter)

CHAIRPERSON: They have clarified my simple mind. Right you are, Glen.

MR GOOSEN: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr de Klerk on the 17th of August 1982 Ruth

<UNKNOWN>: irst was killed at Eduardo Mondlane University in Maputo in a letter bomb attack. This attack on a civilian in a foreign country and carried out without regard to the consequence of indiscriminate death or injury of other persons was carried out on the instructions of a senior member of the security police headquarters. At the time it was claimed that Ruth

<UNKNOWN>: irst was killed by her husband, Joe Slovo. 
One of the persons who has applied for amnesty, Williamson, was widely celebrated as South Africa's super spy. He represented the National Party in an election and was subsequently appointed to the President's Council. As leader of the National Party do you regard the actions of the persons involved in the assassination of Ruth

<UNKNOWN>: irst as the work of an over-zealous policeman?

MR DE KLERK: I will reply to that, but then I would like to say I don't think it's going to serve much of a purpose if we are going to have another 30 similar cases paraded. I think the line of questioning has brought us to a point where it is - where I have made my general approach to such case studies and where would you categorise whom, quite clear. And the same here, if the person doing that, who did that is guilty of murder. And if I were President and if I were made aware that there is evidence of such a person I would make sure that such a person would have been charged and would have been found guilty.

MR GOOSEN: I only have a few more of these type of examples that I will run through, if you will bear with me. 
At the time of Williamson's candidacy for the National Party were you aware of the role he had played in the murder of Ruth

<UNKNOWN>: irst? I take it not from the answer that you've just given?

MR DE KLERK: Obviously not.

MR GOOSEN: Had you been aware of his role would you have supported his candidacy and his appointment to the President's Council?

MR DE KLERK: Obviously not.