Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-21

MR HLONGWANE: : Thereafter, Shakes took me - I don't remember whether it was Shakes or Gadebi, but when we actually killed him, I was with Shakes.   Gadebi told me that Shakes was going to identify this boy to me.   We went to the shop.   A shop called Renkins and he showed me the boy.   The boy went into the shop and then came out.   I looked for this boy for a while and we didn't find him.   One day I was with Shakes in a location called Chippies.   We were at a shebeen and Shakes told me that Gindinga was there at the shebeen.   We waited for him outside.   When he came out I saw him.   He was with another boy and then I shot him.  Afterwards we left.   The important thing that I was also present at his funeral.   His mother was telling us to hurry.   I was surprised when I heard that his mother alleged that she didn't know anything about his death, whereas in fact she did know.

CHAIRPERSON: Please be quiet.

MR HLONGWANE: : When the food was brought to us by the Empangeni office, a goat or sheep was brought.   Gindinga's mother took the food and that beasts and throw them out.   We attended the funeral.  After the funeral she gave us a few beers and we drank, and then we dispersed.   I know for a fact that she did not care.   She was in fact pleased about the death of her son.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Mr Hlongwane was there ever an occasion when you were specifically instructed or requested by Gindinga's mother to kill him?   Did you understand my question or should I repeat it?

MR HLONGWANE: : I understand the question.   No ...(indistinct) about the death of her son.   We had never discussed the matter.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : So there was never an occasion when you were specifically instructed or requested by Gindinga's mother to kill Gindinga?

MR HLONGWANE: : No.   What I do know is that she knew about the case, his death, but she didn't speak to me directly.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : So the instructions came from Shakes and Gadebi only?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes that is true.

MR WILLS: : Thank you Mr Hlongwane.   We are following on from the questioning by the Committee Member.   I refer you to the bottom of page 187 where you say that Shakes took you to Renkin Spar in Mandini where Gindinga's mother, Coty, worked.    She was a strong supporter of the IFP.   She told me that her son Gindinga was troubling her in the sense that he brought ANC boys to her home and finished all her food.   She told me that I should kill her son for her as he was an ANC supporter.   Are you telling us that this part of your Affidavit is in fact incorrect.   It must be in relation to the questions asked by the Committee Member?

MR HLONGWANE: : What I remember is what I have said.   If this is how the statement was written, it must have been a mistake.   I only spoke to Shakes and Gadebi.

MR WILLS: : Thank you.   I refer you now to paragraph 149, Instructions from IFP Mandini Leaders.   Now you refer in that paragraph to Bongani Hadebi, Shakes Mhlonga, Nkosi Motaba, a person Mpanza and Gerry Mdanda, and you refer to these people who were the Inkatha leaders at Mandini and who had provided you with a list of persons that you had to kill.   Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: : That is correct.   Yes.

MR WILLS: : And you say there were about 15 people on this list but you cannot remember all the names?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: : Now it seems to me from having dealt with the Ermelo incidents, that this is very similar to the set-up that happened to you in Ermelo - the same thing.   When you went to Ermelo you met with the local leadership, the IFP leadership in Ermelo and they also were the ones who identified the people who had to die.   Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: : That's correct.

MR WILLS: : And that in essence, the same happened in Mandini, I'm sorry, in eSikhawini.   You went to eSikhawini and the local leadership would be the persons who would be responsible for identifying these people?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS: : Now who else knew about this other than the local leadership.   Who knew about your operations?

MR HLONGWANE: : MZ Khumalo, Gideon Zulu - they all knew.

MR WILLS: : How do you know that they knew?

MR HLONGWANE: : It must be remembered that MZ Khumalo used to work closely with the special branch and the special branch reported to MZ Khumalo about everything that happened.   That is how I know.

MR WILLS: : Did you have direct dealings with these persons that you've mentioned where these matters were raised?

MR HLONGWANE: : Which people are you talking about?

MR WILLS: : MZ Khumalo.

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes I was very close to MZ Khumalo.

MR WILLS: : Gideon Zulu?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes, yes, I was close to him.

MR WILLS: : And we've had evidence from Mr Luthuli that he knew what you were doing?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes he knew very well.

MR WILLS: : You killed the Khumalo boy in Mandini.   Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: : That's correct.

MR WILLS: : You say that you followed him to Island Township in Mandini where he was visiting a girlfriend?

MR HLONGWANE: : That's correct.

MR WILLS: : You say this Khumalo boy appeared on this list?

MR HLONGWANE: : That's correct.

MR WILLS: : You fired your piston and the girlfriend ran away and you killed this Khumalo boy.   Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: : That's correct.

MR WILLS: : You say that the girl was hit in the arm.   Do you mean that she was shot in the arm?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes, she was close to this boy and when I fired a shot it hit her arm and then when she ran away, I could then kill the boy.

MR WILLS: : Now you yourself didn't know anything about this boy Khumalo.   Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: : All the people that I killed, I did not know.   I was just told who to kill and I would do so.   I did not have any argument with them, I would just be told who to kill and then I would go and kill, because if I did not do this people like Mdlanduna would have killed me.

MR WILLS: : Okay I want to refer now to the incident that occurs at paragraph 151.   Now that is the killing of the Nduna on the orders of Chief Motaba.   Do you confirm what Mr Mkhize said in relation to this incident?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes I do confirm.

MR WILLS: : It is essentially that this instruction was given because this Nduna was troublesome to Chief Motaba and you confirm that you participated in the death of this Nduna?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes, yes, I was involved.

MR WILLS: : And you confirm that you reported back to Motaba after this person was killed where he indicated that he was very pleased with you?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes he was very pleased.

MR WILLS: : I want you to turn now to paragraph 152 where there is an attack on an Nduna Sishe.   Can you tell us what happened there?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes I can.   One day I was walking around Mandini and I met Chief Motaba and he told me he'd been looking for me for a long time.   He told me that there were boys who were busy burning peoples' houses down in his area.   He said I should look for these people and kill them.

MR WILLS: : Why did Motaba approach you.   Why didn't he go to somebody else?

MR HLONGWANE: : Because I was an IFP soldier.   It was my duty to kill the opponents of Inkatha.   He came to me because he knew that I killed people who troubled Inkatha.

MR WILLS: : Can you continue?

MR HLONGWANE: : Thereafter if I'm not mistaken Motaba said he was going to speak to Geda his driver who then came to fetch me and then I went to Chief Motaba.   Geda was driving a 4 x 4.   On arrival there was Geda and another boy from Hammarsdale, Ledidi Mosha and Bonga Nkosi from eSikhawini, Olani and another coloured boy from Mangeta called Duncan.   I don't remember his surname.

MR WILLS: : You've recorded in your Affidavit, Duncan Dunn.   Is that the correct surname?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes that is the one.   We all met at Chief Motaba's place.

MR WILLS: : Was this attack discussed where you met?