Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1996-05-13

N JACK MENERA: Brandfort.

MR PHELANE: Then how does it come that you don't know about COSAS?

N JACK MENERA: Let me explain this to you. I want to give you  a very relevant answer.  I left school, I think it was in 1982.  During my school-going years there was no political organisation at all.

MR PHELANE: Let me ask just a few things.  Do you know the students or the youngsters who were the leaders of COSAS in Brandfort during 1985?

N JACK MENERA: Which organisation?

MR PHELANE: COSAS.

N JACK MENERA: I have explained to you that there is nothing I will answer with regard to school matters because I was not attending school.

MR PHELANE: Do you remember the gangster which was informed you as (being) the leaders of it?

N JACK MENERA: I don't know which gangster you referred to.

MR PHELANE: Mr Mukalake?

N JACK MENERA: No I've never stayed at Mukalake's house but I know him.

MR PHELANE: Have you ever assaulted, stabbed Sibikhoto(?) with a knife in town?

N JACK MENERA: No I've never stabbed Sibikhoto, I hit him with a fist, I never stabbed her.

MR PHELANE: You still remember that in 1986 the Stealer(?) gang assaulted him in town?

N JACK MENERA: I'm referring to that day, I remember very well, he laid charges against me, he lied to the court that I stabbed him with a knife and yet it was not true.  He was just lying, I never stabbed him with a knife, I just hit him with my fist.

MR PHELANE: You stabbed him with a knife the day you killed Batistang(?)?.  Your gang killed Batistang that Saturday afternoon?

N JACK MENERA: No you are not telling the truth, I was in Brandfort on that day and there was nobody, myself or either any person among my group who assaulted Batistang.  You have a right question but a wrong person, don't ask me because I was not there.

MR PHELANE: I am asking you because you were a gang leader of that day man, that year, because you had been harassing around there chasing people with pangas and so forth.  That's why I'm asking these questions.

N JACK MENERA: According to me, there is nobody who was with me who could stand before the Commission and say Jack Phulu or Masala stabbed me with a knife.  Among us, and I have indicated that there was conflict between myself and  the other group but nobody will come and testify before this Commission that I stabbed them, nobody.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you not convicted of assault with intent to cause grievous bodily harm using a knife?

N JACK MENERA: No the case was dismissed because Sibikhoto was telling lies, he said I stabbed him whereas I hit him with a fist.

MR PHELANE: Are you not telling the Commission a lie ...(intervention) ?

JUDGE WILSON: We are talking about 1981.  You were given a sentence to a whipping and seven strokes with a light cane. Do you remember that?

N JACK MENERA: Let me tell the Commission about that issue.

JUDGE WILSON: I just want to know, were you convicted of that in 1981.

N JACK MENERA: Yes and the person you referred to that I have stabbed him is the child to my brother, he's my cousin, so this was not politically motivated at all.  At that time there were no political ...(intervention).

JUDGE WILSON: Nobody asked you if you, nobody asked you if it was political, you are now telling us you stabbed your cousin.  Is that so.

N JACK MENERA: Yes.

MR PHELANE: During 1985 could you just tell who killed that comrade J J Khotweni(?).

N JACK MENERA: The question you are asking is right and it will answer itself.  The person who killed JJ was arrested, convicted and sentenced. And he served his sentence.  And I do not know him.  I was not even present at the court.  I did not even see him, but I know of such a person who killed JJ who was sentenced.

MR PHELANE: Who killed that young man Theunissen, Manganga?

N JACK MENERA: Who?  I do not know.

MR PHELANE: Were you not with a gang went to Theunissen killing some of the comrades there.  Were you in that group?

N JACK MENERA: No, I was in Cape Town when I heard that story.  The people who can be in a position to give you an answer are the people who were in Brandfort and Theunissen, I didn't see it myself, so I will not give you an answer.

MR PHELANE: How many rape cases have been against you in Brandfort?

N JACK MENERA: I don't remember one of them and I don't have a record to that effect, and I'm going to request this.  I will answer the questions in regard to what I did to you and your family.  I'm prepared to answer such questions, but what you are asking me, I do not know and I do not want to give an answer, and I've never been convicted, I don't have a record to that effect.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, as the state matter, the issue that Mr Menera is raising, is one that's been concerning me.  I understand that we must be lenient towards Mr Phelane because he's a lay person, but at the same time there appears to be a danger that the applicant might be discredited unjustified.  For instance we first do not know what his basis for putting these questions is, but it might be, and I'm simply speculating, it might be that he's trying to establish that Mr Menera is a person of criminal character and that he committed these acts out of pure criminality, however, at the same time we are not certain whether he's going to come and lead evidence and say these things as positive fact, and I would think that it might be better if it was brought to his attention that there are limits to what he can put and if he puts something he must be able or be prepared to come and substantiate it?

JUDGE WILSON: Well so far as I understand the questioning he hasn't put, he's asked if he knows of events, he hasn't said the applicant was responsible for any of these killings, has he?  He's asked if he knows of them.  But I do think we should know whether, are you going to be giving evidence about this?

MR PHELANE: No Mr Chairman, I ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: What is the purpose asking these questions.

MR PHELANE: As my friend said here that I want to say that Mr Jack is criminal and so forth.  The applicant said so many things which I don't about in his statement there, why should I be now saying that I can not mention some other things which I know about him.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes you've come to give evidence, but if you are not going to mention these in your evidence what is the relevance of them?

MR PHELANE: They will be mentioned in my ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: If you're going to mention them then carry on.

UNKNOWN: Should I understand that answer to mean...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: It's only fair, he's going to give evidence about these things, that he should put them to your client and he can try and answer them if he wants to.

UNKNOWN: I'm not opposing the suggestion but I need clarification on whether, is he suggesting, should I accept it that he's going to lead evidence that Mr Menera killed the people he has referred to, that Mr Menera raped certain persons and is he going to tell us...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Not necessarily, it can be relevant to lead evidence to show the tension that existed in that area, the gangs that operated there. If as he suggests the applicant was a member of a gang.  We know only too well, with great regret, what gang warfare is doing to certain parts of the country today and the purpose may be for that.  I don't know. As you know I have not consulted with this person at all, but where a person is unrepresented, it is very difficult to tell him to stop and then you later find that they should have put something and they haven't.  And I  can't see that up to now, your client has been prejudiced by the questions when he simply says he doesn't know about them.