Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-03

MR LAX: And if I understand the papers correctly, Mr Ras had come down on a supervision mission prior to yourself?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, if I am correct, Mr Ras was initially the leader of that team on the same basis as Mr Coetzer.

MR LAX: And he was replaced?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: And he was replaced by Mr Coetzer.

MR LAX: Correct.   When Ras came back to Pretoria, did he report to you on what was happening?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: He didn't?   Before you came down on this inspection, because that is really what it was in a sense, it was a tour of inspection of your members who were busy in kwaZulu Natal, that is correct?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Who briefed you prior to coming down here?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, what normally happened was that Maj de Kock and myself would decide which teams and which regions of the country, we would visit and we would split up the areas, he would go and visit half the teams and I would visit the other half of the teams and we would generally do it in such a way so as to not have to travel completely from east to west, but teams operating more or less in the same region, so we didn't have to travel all that far.  And then we would visit the teams in those ways.  Such visits entailed visiting the Divisional Commander of the area, under which we were working, to coordinate with them and then to coordinate with the people that were directly responsible for deploying our people.  And then the whole purpose there was so that we could on an ongoing basis, evaluate the quality and the standard of the work that we were providing for people.

MR LAX: Yes.  You still haven't answered my question.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Sorry.

MR LAX: Who briefed you on what the members you were going to inspect, was supposed to be doing?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, the members had been requested by a Division, we weren't briefed prior to that as to what they were doing, we would find that out from the Division that we went to, to see exactly how they were being deployed.

MR LAX: Now you only met with Taylor at Winkelspruit, you hadn't met with him prior to that?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: What did you do in the couple of days before you came to meet Taylor, because you were already there for two to three days you said?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I can remember, I was with Warrant Officer McCarter and his team.  I also went, as far as I can remember, reported to Gen Steyn, discussed with him, but Taylor was not there at that stage, I don't know what he was doing.  That was my first meeting with Taylor that I could get was that day.

MR LAX: But McCarter and company were working under Taylor?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Yes, they were.

MR LAX: Under his broad direction?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: They were.

MR LAX: And as you have said, they were primarily busy with identification of possible MK suspects?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: You see, because I am slightly puzzled here, you only spoke to Taylor two or three days later, to find out what job these people were actually doing?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I have said, I don't know where he was prior to that.  I don't know, Mr Taylor was also a man that travelled quite extensively and I am not sure if he was also in the region at that stage, and that is why that was the first time that I could meet him.

MR LAX: You got to the Winkelspruit base, you said there were other cars there when you arrived?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Whose cars were those?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I presumed that one would have been Mr Taylor's car, I think Lt du Preez' vehicle was also there.  As far as I can remember, Sgt Coetzer's vehicle was also there and I am not sure if the member from Port Shepstone ...

MR LAX: Basson?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Basson, if his vehicle was also there, because he also had a vehicle.

MR LAX: Was Taylor alone at the base at that time?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: When I got there Mr Chairman, he was on his own.

MR LAX: You were asked about this plaster of paris informer?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Do you have any recollection of that person having been spoken about, at all?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman, I heard it here at the Commission.

MR LAX: Yes.   Now, you said you expected that Botha would have told Gen Steyn about this person having died?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I assumed he would have.  That was my assumption.

MR LAX: Why would he have told him about that?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Being the Commander of the area, obviously I should imagine that Gen Steyn would have also been up to date with what was happening, but I am not sure.  Well, I cannot say if he did or not, I assumed he would have.

MR LAX: Yes, but why would he have told him that, the person that died and he disposed of the body?  That was an unlawful thing, why would he involve the General in that?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: As I have said, I cannot comment on that, I don't know if he did or not, I thought he would have.  I mean I told Maj de Kock, as far as I can remember, I told him.  I told my superiors, so I presumed you know, he or Col Taylor would have told the General, I don't know.

MR LAX: You see, his evidence in this and other matters has consistently been that he would never have involved his seniors unless they actually knew about something?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: As I say Mr Chairman, I cannot comment on his actions.

MR LAX: Yes.  Now, you have said that you poked your head into the interrogation room because you wanted to find out if there was anything to work on?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: What did you mean by that?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: If there is any information relating to terrorists for which I could start getting my other people mobilised to work, you know to go and work in the area and so on, in other words what they would want us to do if there were terrorists at a certain place.

MR LAX: But with respect, Mr Baker, you wouldn't have gone out to do anything until an operation had been properly planned and the interrogation completed.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, that is correct, but obviously wanting to know if you know, our main task was identification and capture of terrorists, that was what we were all about.  That was our task and I wanted to know, was there any positive information on the terrorists.  I have been informed by Col Taylor that there were terrorists that would possibly be apprehended and so on, so I wanted to know about that.

MR LAX: You see, I am just trying to see some consistency in your pattern of behaviour.   Within three minutes of her arrival, you go to the interrogation room, right?  By that stage, interrogation has just started, and the first thing you ask is, is there any information?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, with due respect, they had travelled with this person from Battery Beach to Winkelspruit, which is a distance, it is quite possible that in that distance, somebody could have, she could have spoken about something or whatever, that is why I thought she had been with them for quite some time at that stage.

MR LAX: No, fair enough, yes.  And then at that, your first answer is, no, there is nothing?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Yes, that is correct Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: And then two minutes later, you poke your head in again?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Five minutes later, yes.

MR LAX: But you were only there for five minutes before you left, that was your earlier evidence?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No, I said that the time between the two was approximately about five minutes.