Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-26

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I then felt that the assistance that I was providing them at the time, was insufficient because they could not continue protecting themselves and the community and when we were discussing this, they mentioned that their guns were insufficient.
	Another factor was that it was not only M Section that was involved in the conflict, but the entire township.  Some people from K Section would come and assist in the Section, and the people at K Section were also involved in fighting with others from Richmond Farm, therefore weapons would have to be distributed amongst all these areas.
	For example people from M Section would have only one gun and therefore could not continue fighting in a proper way.
	Because of this problem, I told them that I will try and see how I could acquire more guns to supplement the ones that they had.  Because at that time, I could only supply them with ammunition.
	I could not give them my own service pistol, because if anything happens, we will be in trouble, because the activities that we were engaged in, were illegal.  If for instance my gun was fired in fighting, I would be in trouble.

MR NGUBANE: Did you then resolve to acquire guns for these units?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, an opportunity arose.

MR NGUBANE: As I understand you, did you discuss with the Defence Units that you were going to acquire guns for them?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, as I explained earlier, I told them that because of the shortage of guns, I would try to acquire more.

MR NGUBANE: Did you tell them how you were going to acquire these guns at any stage?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: No.  I did not.

MR NGUBANE: And then, you proceeded to acquire these guns, did you?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, I proceeded with the assistance of some of my colleagues from the Police Force.

MR NGUBANE: Did you do this once or on several occasions?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: It was just once.

MR NGUBANE: You were helped by some members of the police, that is what you have said, is that correct?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Are those people the people that were co-accused with you in the High Court matter?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And did you acquire these guns at Ndwedwe, is that correct?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: At a pay point where pension monies were being paid to the members of the community, is that right?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Can you explain to us how you went about in acquiring these guns?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: The people with whom I had arranged to carry out this, arrived at the police station.

MR NGUBANE: Who were those?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: One of them was Mgululego, who was also close to me.  As far as I know, it is Mbele, he did not stay at M Section, but at K Section.
	He also used to stay at H Section.

MR NGUBANE: And the second gentleman who came with him, who was he?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Although I did not know him well, if I remember correctly, I remember him saying that his name was Bekhi, but I did not know him well.  I only knew Mgululego well and I trusted Mgululego.

MR NGUBANE: Were they also members of the kwaZulu police?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: No, they were just followers of the ANC.

MR NGUBANE: Were they members of the ANC or followers, or you don't know?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I could not establish wether they were card carrying members of the ANC because in such situations you do not think of establishing whether a person is a card carrying member or not.
	But if people are cooperating, you assume that they are in the same organisation.  Therefore I am not certain that they were card carrying members, but I know that they were supporters of the ANC.

MR NGUBANE: Right, they came to you, did they discuss with you the plan to go and rob at Ndwedwe?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes.  We got into a vehicle, we had already arranged that they would come to the police station.
	We then proceeded to Ndwedwe.

MR NGUBANE: Were you armed?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, I was armed.  I had my service pistol.

MR NGUBANE: And the other two gentlemen, were they armed?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, they were armed, they had small guns.

MR NGUBANE: Okay, did anyone join you then as accomplices at any stage?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: It was the two gentlemen that I have already mentioned and then we proceeded.

MR NGUBANE: Right.  The gentlemen that joined you, are they Judas Jones Mdluli, Dumisani Ernest Dlamini, Nduduzi Desmond Mbele and Sibusiso Patrick Thembe?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: No, the last two that you have mentioned, did not accompany us at that time.  As I mentioned the ones that we travelled with was Mgululego Bekhi, Judas Jones Mdluli and Dlamini and myself.

MR NGUBANE: Mbele and Thembe, did they join you at any stage?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: No, we did not travel with them.    When Mgululego was arrested, they were also found at home, and they were also arrested.

MR NGUBANE: Okay, then you proceeded to Ndwedwe and you arrived there armed, is that correct?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And you took positions there, is that correct?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes.  There were four of us on the scene.  The fifth person was not at the scene, but further away, a distance away.

MR NGUBANE: Who is that one who was at a distance away?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Dumisani Ernest Dlamini.

MR NGUBANE: And at the scene where the robbery was committed, it was yourself and who else?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: It was myself, Judas Jones Mdluli, Mgululego and Bekhi, the four of us.

MR NGUBANE: All right, after having taken positions, what did you do?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Mgululego and Mdluli, I would just like to sort of illustrate how this area was.

MR NGUBANE: Okay, you can do that.

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: There was a store, Tapuka Store, it had a huge double door in front, a wooden door.  At the back there was a small door.  It was just a small shop in a rural area.
	The people who were going to issue or pay pensioners, went inside the shop and the policemen who were escorting them, stood outside where they had parked their vehicle, a 4 x 4 Toyota.
	As the pensioners were getting paid inside, the policemen were outside.  Mdluli and Mgululego then proceeded towards the police.  Bekhi and myself remained behind next to the wall on the side of the shop.
	As I was standing there, I wanted to survey what was going to happen.  I wanted to see if these two people were going to be successful in removing guns from the policemen.  As Mdluli approached the policeman, one of them had an HMC and he was patrolling around, moving up and down.  I don't know whether he was alert or something, but he was just going up and down.
	There were a lot of people around.  As Mdluli pointed his firearm at this policeman who had an HMC, this policeman turned quickly as if he was about to shoot.  At that instant a shot was fired.  I saw the policeman falling on the ground.
	There was then chaos, people started running in all directions.  A second shot, or a second gun was fired.  It fired constantly.  I realised that this gun was being fired rapidly.  As I peeped, I saw another policeman carrying an HMC.  This was the same gun that was being fired rapidly.  
	What then followed, was like a war zone, people were running away, gunfire was exchanged.  That was when Mgululego shot that policeman who had been firing with an HMC, because that was the same policeman who made the situation difficult and that also led to an injury to a civilian.
	He died, I saw him falling.  At that time, I had taken cover because Mdluli and Mgululego had taken cover behind the white van.

MR NGUBANE: Right, before you proceed, did you during this war situation as you have described, did you personally fire any shots?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: No, I did not fire a shot.