Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Nofomela, most of the applicants from Vlakplaas or from the Security Police were among others saying that they were defending the old order against the liberation movements and the like, would you say you were in the same position with them?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, Sir.

MR SIBANYONI: In other words, also in your mind you didn't want liberation movements to overthrow, as they say from time to time, overthrow the previous government.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I was made to believe so Sir, that that was the right thing to do.

MR SIBANYONI: Okay.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Me personally, I did not have a problem with that, but at that stage I was made to believe that I was doing something right.

MR SIBANYONI: Then you were not an askari, you were a pure policeman, am I correct?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: That is correct, Sir.

MR SIBANYONI: You said you were driving around with askaris to identify so-called terrorists, what was the instructions in case you find those people?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: We were told to arrest them or capture them.

MR SIBANYONI: And after they were arrested, what was supposed to have happened with them?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: They would be taken to Court and be convicted or sentenced.

MR SIBANYONI: Were people arrested by your, I will say your team, and taken to Court?  Do you remember of any ...(intervention)

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Not by me personally, but Mr van Dyk somewhere in Piet Retief was also in my group, he arrested one Banda and Gandries.  They were arrested and they were recruited.  They were recruiting them to work for Vlakplaas.  They refused and they were convicted.

MR SIBANYONI: I see you mentioned the lady Tandi Shosha, did she frequently feature in the team with you?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: She was not always with me.

MR SIBANYONI: Was she with you in more than one or two instances?  Can you estimate, can you give us an estimation?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: She was with me for more than five times.

MR SIBANYONI: Was it only in KwaZulu Natal or also at other places?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Even in other places like Rustenburg, Soweto and so on she would be with me and even in Pretoria.

MR SIBANYONI: What about former Transkei?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, I was never with her there.

MR SIBANYONI: You testified that Mr de Kock said you should not participate in the Chesterville incident because there was a job for you and you say you didn't know at that stage what job was he referring to, but was there a mission after the Chesterville event, which you could identify as the mission which he was sparing you for? - to take part in it.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, there was no such a mission, Sir.

MR SIBANYONI: I heard you saying again and again that you realised that this thing was wrong because you were never sent to kill a white person, except instances where you were sent out to damage the property of white persons.  Did you get the impression that the way Vlakplaas operated was in a way on a racial basis that who were attacked were blacks and not whites?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, that's what I gathered, Sir.

MR SIBANYONI: I heard that you were arrested for killing a white person, had that to do with Vlakplaas or was it something unrelated to Vlakplaas activities?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: That incident had nothing to do with Vlakplaas, Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Didn't you apply for amnesty for that case?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I did apply for that.

ADV DE JAGER: And you say it's got nothing to do with Vlakplaas?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, it had nothing to do with Vlakplaas.

ADV DE JAGER: Had it anything to do with politics?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I applied on the basis that this person called me a "kaffir" and he had a firearm.  He wanted to shoot me and I stabbed him with a knife.  It's not that I was sent there by Vlakplaas, it's only because he called me a "kaffir" and he even threatened to kill me.

ADV DE JAGER: What were you doing at his place?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: As I've already explained we were just passing by to steal the money, we found him in the house - outside the house, he held me with my shirt and he referred to me as a "kaffir".  I stabbed in that process and he died.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Hugo put it to you that you sent a message to de Kock saying that it is his turn to take the pain because he did the same to you previously and that you bear a grudge for him.  Do you still bear a grudge to him, even today?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I mentioned during the trial that I am no longer holding any grudge against de Kock.  We couldn't see for an eye and I realised that to fight something that cannot change is just a waste of time.  I do not have anything against him as I am sitting here today.

MR SIBANYONI: You also said people were telling lies before the Harms Commission, and I understood that you were also conceding that you also told lies before the Harms Commission and my question is, have you maybe - have you decided to stop telling lies?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I want to put it this way.  Some of the things that I mentioned during the Harms Commission, that was not the whole truth.  Though some of the things were true, the defence counsel is capitalising on that, everything that I said there was a lie and I was responding to that statement that there were clients, de Kock and the others, whom I referred to them as opportunists, they lied all the way.  Everybody denied everything and today they are also here, they are applying for amnesty on the very same things that they said I was lying about.  So I was responding to that statement.

MR SIBANYONI: Were you ever arrested or charged for any incident or activity which arose from Vlakplaas operations?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I was arrested and convicted for murdering of Mr Mxenge in 1981.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibanyoni.
	Can I just ask you, Mr Nofomela, these women askaris, I think you mentioned two in this group, is that correct, were there two that you remember in this group that went into Chesterville?  Women askaris.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: There were two of them, Tandi and Susan.

CHAIRPERSON: They were both askaris?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, they were formerly members of one or other liberation movement, usually the ANC, who were turned to work with Vlakplaas?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, they were former members of ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Now were you there when they recruited these women, Vlakplaas turned them?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, I was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: And how did they apply them, how did Vlakplaas apply these women?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: They were using them just like the other tent people who would go with us and identify their members.

CHAIRPERSON: So they would also point out some of their former comrades in the liberation movement?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now there was - we have a document which seems to relate to some or other investigation, it could be from a police docket, we will probably hear later what the significance of this thing is, but it refers to Shosha as a Constable and they say that the date of attestation - I assume that is when she became a policeman, I'm not sure what this term means, was the 1st of March 1986.  Have you got any idea about that?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, I have no idea about that, Chairperson.