Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Was that the first day that you saw him?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That they tell me that he's Koekemoer, yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Have you seen him before?  Even though you did not know his name was Koekemoer?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Where was that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That was with the Ystergarde, actions of protection.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Mr Koekemoer was he member of the Wen Kommando or the Ystergarde?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: The way I understood it he was a member of the Ystergarde.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Were you also a member of the Ystergarde?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, I was a Commandant in the Ystergarde Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Tell me then how is it then that the people do not know each other?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Mr Chairperson we were in different districts.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Was he in your district?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, Mr Chairperson.  And the way in which I understood it, he fell under Ventersdorp area and he was one of the last candidates who qualified during that period.

ADV GCABASHE: You did not know anything about  Koekemoer's expertise at that stage did you?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: If we can then go to the Sunday evening, the 24th April?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That specific evening, if I understand it correctly Koper Myburgh and others arrived there and they asked you to organise a  meeting, is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, I was asked to attend a meeting Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Were you not asked to bring the people together?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, I misunderstood the question.  I thought it was where we talked with the Generals and out of that meeting or in that meeting I was asked to gather the members together outside for Dupee.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I don't understand, did you attend the meeting or did you call this meeting together?

MR MALAN: The witness said there were two meetings.  The first meeting was of Officers which he had to attend after that meeting it was a broader meeting where he got the instructions to talk to Colonel Dupee and gather all the people together for a public discussion.  If you talk about a meeting please indicate what meeting you're talking about.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Let us continue to the second meeting of Sunday evening, that meeting.  Did you bring the people together, call them together?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.  I was told to call the people together for Commandant Dupee outside.  I was on my way to do it, I've already spoken to the people but during that same time Johan Smit who at that stage was a Major, he shouted to the people that they must go outside, that Commandant Dupee wants to speak to them.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I accept that you were not present at the second meeting?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, I was not permanently present Mr Chairperson, so I do not know everything that happened.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Why not?  It is an important meeting.  The members must be addressed.  Why were you not present?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I say that I was not permanently present at this meeting but Commandant Dupee was in charge of the meeting.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Why were you not permanently present at such an important meeting?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Because I already knew what will be discussed at that meeting, if that is the answer what you looking for.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.  Now which meeting did you address where you were explaining the admin, the household procedures, was it the first or the second?  I understood it to be the second meeting.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Please repeat Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: You addressed one of those meetings to explain all the household admin procedures because you had been appointed in charge of household matters.  That's what I understand.  If  you look at Volume 2, Page, there's a 9 and a 59, 9 really is what we're looking at, Volume 2.  Go to Page 15, that should be where we find it.  Paragraph 17, "beskuldige nege", was that not yourself as Camp Commandant.  You were introduced as Camp Commandant and you were asked to speak to people about, just household matters because you were now head of household admin matters.  If this did happen, which meeting was this that you addressed?  If I'm not incorrect in saying you are number 9, you were number 9 in the case?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Mr Chairperson.  I was accused number 9.  I was introduced to the people as the Camp Commandant.  I did not convey that to them myself.  I was in charge of the guards, services and Commandant Dupee was introduced as the Commandant of Operations.  Is that what you would like to know Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: So when you explained the rules of the Camp to the members, was that in one of those two meetings which Mr Kriel referred to?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that another opportunity, was it another time?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I went to each one of them and I told them that this is what we expect of them.  We're not children and I do not want to talk about it again and that's how things are going to be.

ADV GCABASHE: So can you explain to us when is it that you addressed the membership?  The people who were gathered there, if it was not at one of these two meetings.  Was it before these two meetings or after these two meetings?  Just help us understand this.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Chairperson, when I addressed a group of people, that was when the Natalers arrived there, the people from Natal.  And they were welcomed by General Nico Prinsloo.  That was outside of the hall when they arrived there and he said to them, he told them who Commandant Dupee is.  He was the Commandant of Operations and Commandant A B Fourie is the Commandant, is the Camp Commandant and I'm in charge of that and then I spoke to them and I showed them where the rubbish dumps were and things like that.

ADV GCABASHE: So this was on the morning of the 25th April?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Ja, that's when the Natalers arrived there Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: What the panel member just said, that was allegations made by the State.  This witness did not give evidence in front of the Commission when he addressed the people.  It was the statements of the State.  I just want to put it on Record.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

ADV GCABASHE: He's quite correct in what he says now.  It's when the Natalians arrived that he did address the people.  So I was trying to put it all together to try and find out which meetings we're talking about and what his participation was in all of those meetings.  So what he has said now Ms Van Der Walt is exactly what he had said yesterday.  I'm satisfied with that.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.   The Sunday night there were two meetings.  You say that you did not attend the second meeting because you already knew what was going to be said, is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's correct.  I was not permanently present.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Because you knew what was going to be said?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: What would have been said?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: In the meeting where we were together, before these other people were called together, Koper Myburgh in the presence of Nico Prinsloo and also in the presence of Brigadier Leon Van Der Merwe he said that the pipe bombs, the people at the game farm must be involved with the pipe bombs and it should be distributed amongst them.