Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Madlala, I am very perturbed about your evidence about what I think is an important event which led
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MS KHAMPEPE	105	MR MADLALA
to the death of the deceased, Mr Jama, and that is the search of the group of boys that you found next to Dambuza.  The evidence of both Mr Erasmus and Harrington was to the effect that the whole group was subjected to an extensive search.  In fact, only one person resisted the search and that was Mr Jama, which led to him being put into the van and your evidence or statement to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission which you have submitted also to this Committee on page 7 at paragraph 25 you yourself says that:
"On our way back to Dambuza area we met a group of about 15 boys including Mbongeni Jama, whom we searched after stopping the vehicle, but we found nothing from their persons".
You have now changed that and you are saying not all of these persons were searched.  Now which evidence are we supposed to believe from you, Mr Madlala?

MR MADLALA: The people that we searched, I don't know why they said they were all searched, because according to my recollection we were not able to search all of them because the people were many in number, much more than us, and if I recollect quite well, the people were not all searched because Jama at that time was resisting the search and the attention was diverted from the other group to Jama.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why did you then write in your statement that you searched and you did not indicate that you did not search the whole group.  Your statement says that you searched the group.  It is your statement and not Mr Harrington and Mr Erasmus's statement.

MR MADLALA: Yes, it is true, we did search the group, but not all of them were searched, not all of them.  We did
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MS KHAMPEPE	106	MR MADLALA
search a certain number, but the attention was diverted later on because at that time Mr Jama was resisting the search.  And at that time the attention was shifted from the group as a whole to Mr Jama.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why is that section not contained in the document that you submitted, Mr Madlala?

MR MADLALA: Maybe there is a problem that I can put in this manner.  It is difficult for me to give the statement to a number of different people because the people that you speak to they don't understand you in the same manner and at times what I can tell you is that as I am here before this Amnesty, I am explaining everything word by word, because there is a tendency of not trusting the people who come to take statements from you.  I may further point out that at court during the trial I did not make mention of the diary and I realise that if I mention it in court it was going to count against me because I was a member of the IFP.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... but I will pass that one.  When you mentioned the diary, can you explain to us whether in your opinion the diary was indeed found in the person of Mr Jama?  You have repeatedly stated that you witnessed an extensive search on Mr Jama before he was put inside the van.   So in your opinion did the diary come from the person of Mr Jama when he was in the van?

MR MADLALA: I could say this diary belonged to Mr Jama because all of us who were in the van were members of the IFP, so there isn't a person who could have written in the diary that on a certain day they would go and burn so-and-so's house who was an IFP member.  I don't think it could have happened amongst IFP members.  Because at the top of the list in this diary I saw Mr Vezi's name who was at the
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MS KHAMPEPE	107	MADLALA
top of the hit-list who had to be attacked and his house burnt down.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But Mr Madlala, you had witnessed an extensive search being conducted on the person of Mr Jama and there was nothing that Mr Jama was wearing except for a T-shirt, is that not so, and the diary was found in the pocket of the T-shirt.

MR MADLALA: It could happen that they are making a mistake there, but I do not know as to whether they got it from the T-shirt.  I remember he was wearing a T-shirt.

JUDGE WILSON: A T-shirt doesn't have pockets, does it?

MR MADLALA: Yes, I do  know that a T-shirt doesn't have pockets.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you know how big a size was this diary?

MR MADLALA: Yes, I do remember.  It was the size of the police pocketbook.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You are demonstrating something, can we see your hand?

MR MADLALA: It was slightly bigger than what I am having in my hand.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Could you hold that up again, please?

CHAIRPERSON: What is that?

JUDGE WILSON: Or let us see it.  Is that the normal identity document?

MR MADLALA: No, this is my ticket,  my identification.

CHAIRPERSON: Why were these young men searched?

MR MADLALA: As I was sitting at the back, I do not know because there were people sitting at the front, they stopped the van and I did not know what they suspected at the time as I was still holding the doors the van just stopped and we
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CHAIRMAN	108	MR MADLALA
usually sit at the back, so I saw the van stopping at that time and all those who were at the front came out and said we should conduct a search on this group.

CHAIRPERSON: For what were they searching?

MR MADLALA: I think the most important thing when you conduct a search, we always searching for arms and ammunition as well as dagga.   These are the main things that we search, but they do not specifically say that we should search them for guns.  They just said we should search them.

CHAIRPERSON: You understood that to mean that you must search them for guns or dagga.

MR MADLALA: No, whatever was unlawful that was in their possession had to be retrieved, because I went to Mr Mkhizi, that is the person I personally searched.  Even in court he pointed out that I was the one who searched him.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But if you were also searching for dagga, how come you missed an object of that size in the pockets of the deceased?

MR MADLALA: I don't know how to explain this because I did not search Mr Jama.  I searched Mr Mkhizi, and maybe the other ones who searched Mr Jama who could not get the diary and they only got it in the van.  Maybe they did not search him properly or they did not look into the diary or they thought it was just an ordinary book of no importance.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: In your experience searches for dagga have yielded quantities far smaller than the size of that pocketbook, surely?

MR MADLALA: Yes, I do know that.

JUDGE WILSON: I just want you to clear up something for me, please.  Where precisely is Nonshezi?
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MR MADLALA: /...
JUDGE WILSON	109	MR MADLALA

MR MADLALA: When you are at Dambuza next to the hospital, you take the road that proceeds to Hlnatingi(?) and when you get to Hlnatingi it is the taxi rank, there is an exit to Nonshezi.  I could say it is next to Nadi.

JUDGE WILSON: (Inaudible)  We are talking about Edendale Hospital.

MR MADLALA: No, it is quite a distance from the hospital.

JUDGE WILSON: The direction behind the hospital from where we are now.

MR MADLALA: No, you go past Edendale Hospital towards Dambuza, because when you go to Dambuza you leave Edendale Hospital.  You go past Edendale, you go past Hlnatingi before you get to KwaNoshezi.

JUDGE WILSON: And Georgetown?  Or Georgedale you said you went to.

MR MADLALA: Georgetown is on the highway.  When you pass the Edendale taxi rank.  And when you get to where the roads cross then that's Georgetown.

JUDGE WILSON: ... beyond the dam?

MR MADLALA: Before you get to Hendley Dam.  Hendley Dam is a little bit too far.

JUDGE WILSON: ... than Hendley.

MR MADLALA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ... to your application form for amnesty.   Question No 10(a) asks
"State political objectives sought to be achieved?"
You said:
"To oppose the ANC and support Inkatha".
That is correct, is it?