Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-04-13

MR NHLAPO: As I've explained, I was not on the side of the driver's door, I was on the other side instead, so that when we ran away I cannot say whether he took the keys or not.  I did not come to the side of the driver's door.

UNKNOWN: It is also my instructions that this is not, you had no political motive and you didn't even know, you couldn't have known that these were policemen  because the deceased and his brother did not travel in a police car, it was private car and also they were not in uniform, what is your response to that?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, they were not wearing a police uniform, I agree, but I am saying we went to them because we noticed this police radio in the vehicle and that's when we concluded that they are police.  Yes, they were not wearing any police uniform.

UNKNOWN: You have ...(intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Sorry.  What made you sure that they were policemen, that the deceased was a policeman?

MR NHLAPO: As I have explained earlier ...(intervention)

ADV SIGODI: No, I've heard the explanation that you saw this microphone, now what I want to know, does the fact that there was a microphone per se, confirm that the person driving that particular vehicle is a policeman?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SIGODI: But you've just heard that this was a private car.  What reasonable ...(intervention)

MR NHLAPO: Yes, as I have indicated it was a private vehicle but I indicated that we came to them and we started suspecting that they are the police.

ADV SIGODI: Did you know the deceased?

MR NHLAPO: No, I did not know him.

DR TSOTSI: Mr Nhlapo, did you see the gun in the policeman's possession?

MR NHLAPO: No, no, I did not see it.

DR TSOTSI: And did your companion see it?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, he did.

DR TSOTSI: Okay, now what was there to stop you from, or stop you or stop him from seizing the gun and running away with it?  After all this is what you had gone there for, to get the gun.

MR NHLAPO: Our attempt to get the firearm failed because it was in a holster and a gunshot had also gone off at the same time and we ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: So you did see the firearm?

MR NHLAPO: Not personally because I was on the other side of the vehicle.

DR TSOTSI: You said you ran away because there were people who noticed that there was a gun shooting, shooting there?

MR NHLAPO: That is correct.

DR TSOTSI: Didn't it occur to you that if one seizes a gun from a policeman, that a shot might be fired?

MR NHLAPO: I do not quite get that question.

DR TSOTSI: The question is very simple.  You went there to seize, to steal a gun, my question is, didn't it occur to you that in the process of stealing that gun there might be a shot fired?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, it did occur to me.

DR TSOTSI: And did you then decide that if a shot was fired, you would then run away and not take possession of the gun?

MR NHLAPO: The gunshot went off unexpectedly, so that when it did we got a fright and we ended up not taking the firearm that we had come for and we ran away.

DR TSOTSI: I don't understand what frightened you, what frightened you, was it the gunshot that frightened you or was it the fact that there were people around?  What was it exactly that frightened you that made you run away?

MR NHLAPO: We were frightened by the gunshot and the fact that this had drawn the attention of the people who were now looking as this was happening.

DR TSOTSI: Now what was your fear about people looking on?  You went there to steal a gun and a shot was fired and there were people around here, what was it that you feared about the people, that made you leave the gun instead of taking it away with you?

MR NHLAPO: We realised that these people might start screaming, shouting and calling other people, so we decided to run away.

DR TSOTSI: Did these people know you?

MR NHLAPO: You mean the people who were around there?  I don't ...(intervention)

DR TSOTSI: Yes, the people around there, did they know you?

MR NHLAPO: No, they did not know us.

DR TSOTSI: Did you know them?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, there were some that I knew, security guards.

DR TSOTSI: Yes, who were these?

MR NHLAPO: Those were security guards who were just standing by.

DR TSOTSI: Where were they standing in relation to the car, to the policemen's car?

MR NHLAPO: They were quite a distance, not too far away.  They were outside a certain firm, building.

DR TSOTSI: So what was it that you feared about them?  Were they carrying firearms or did you fear they were going to shoot you or what was it exactly that you feared about them?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, they had firearms in their possession or with them.

DR TSOTSI: Did you see the firearms with them?

MR NHLAPO: They usually carry those firearms and I saw them.

DR TSOTSI: No, I'm not asking what they usually do, did you actually see the firearms that they were carrying?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, I did.

DR TSOTSI: Oh I see.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you go and rob them then?

DR TSOTSI: Answer the question.  Why didn't you rob them if you saw they were, that's what you were looking for, firearms, isn't it?  Why didn't you rob them of them?

MR NHLAPO: See there were two of them standing there and we thought we were not going to manage to overcome them because they were both standing there.

CHAIRPERSON: But there were two in the car also.

MR NHLAPO: Yes, you see the difference is that they were sitting.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, have you got anymore questions?

UNKNOWN: Please Mr Chairperson, I do.
	You stated that you did not see the gun of the deceased, but your friend saw the firearm, how do you know this?

INTERPRETER: May you please repeat the last part of your question, Ms Thabete.

CHAIRPERSON: Repeat your question.

UNKNOWN: You say you did not see the firearm of the deceased, but your friend saw the firearm.  My question is, how do you know that your friend saw the firearm?

MR NHLAPO: He shouted and said: "The person has a firearm with him".

UNKNOWN: You know, Mr Nhlapo, I've got a problem, you seem to be introducing new evidence all the time and I'm not sure whether I should ask you why you didn't mention the fact that your friend told you that the deceased had a firearm, because firstly, in your affidavit you only stated that your friend ordered the deceased to hand over his firearm, then later on you introduced new evidence that no, it was a firearm and the car keys. - only after I've asked you about the car keys.
	I asked you about what you had written of the fact that he lifted his firearm up, again you changed that, you said no, he didn't lift up his firearm, but you saw him making a sign as if he was going to take up his firearm.  Now I'm asking you, how do you know that he saw the firearm and you're saying: "He said so".  Why didn't you put that down in your affidavit, why are you introducing new evidence now?

MR NHLAPO: You see what I've written in my affidavit is what I've been asked by my attorney.

UNKNOWN: But it doesn't explain why you are introducing new evidence all the time, that you could have stated earlier on.  It's important evidence.

MR NHLAPO: You see, in other things in relation to my attorney, he never asked me some other things and only if he did I would have answered and included such in my affidavit.  So my attorney did not canvass such matters with me.

UNKNOWN: My last question is - actually it's my second-last question, if you were there to take firearms or to take a firearm, why did your friend take the car keys instead and run away with them instead of taking the firearm, more especially because according to your evidence he had told you that he has seen the firearm? Why didn't he take the firearm, he had seen it, why did he take the car keys instead and run away with them?