Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

MR LAMEY: Yes.  Now if that is so Mr Mamasela and if we assume it's correct that this photograph number 13, the room with the rings in it is in the house on photograph number 8 and if we assume that is correct and Mr Mogoai - and if we assume it's correct that Mr Mogoai pointed that house out to the investigating officers from the Attorney General's team, that room where the rings were Mr Hashe was kept, how would he know about that?  How would he know about the rings in a room if that house was locked and they never entered that house, how would he be able to point that out?

JOE MAMASELA: I am not Mogoai, go and ask him: how did he know what was inside.  Why do you ask me you client's things, I don't know.  If he did get in at a later stage when I was busy maybe helping or making fire, it's his funeral.
	I was not there when he got in and I wouldn't lie whether he got in or he got out, why should I lie when I said we were all there and we were all beating these people up, why should I lie about him getting into a house and not getting out?  I can't lie about those things.  If I don't know, I don't know, ask you client to brief you more.

MR LAMEY: Well, I want to put it to Mr Mamasela, that you are not telling the truth and that you are confusing the places where the PEBCO 3 were kept in custody prior to their interrogation and that you remember perhaps, the garage because during the following day Mr Godolozi was taken into that garage at a certain stage according to Mr Mogoai and Mr Koole, that is why you mentioned the garage.

JOE MAMASELA: Let me tell you something, you say I am lying.  For your information it must be borne in your mind that I was the first person to come out about the PEBCO 3 in 1994 in City Press with the head - in front page with the headlines saying Sergeant X.  I was operating under that norm of Sergeant X.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are saying you are not lying, you deny that you're lying.

JOE MAMASELA: I'm not lying, I'm the first man to come out with this truth and your Piet Mogoai came just recently here.  I'm the first man to go in 1995 to the Attorney General and ask them when did they go to the Attorney General.  So what is their motive of coming late to the Attorney General?  Why didn't they come out immediately when I stood up in 1994 and ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mamasela, I'm going to stop you there.

JOE MAMASELA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey, is this a convenient stage to have a break?

MR LAMEY: As it please you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And I hope that when we come back we'll deal with the question of assaults.

MR LAMEY: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Allegations made against your client by Mr Mamasela.

MR LAMEY: Yes, yes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

JOE MAMASELA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mamasela, the next morning after the arrival at Post Chalmers, Mr Hashe - it was the first time that Mr Hashe was assaulted, is that correct?

JOE MAMASELA: That's absolutely correct.

MR LAMEY: At what time did the assaults start on him?

JOE MAMASELA: I would just approximate, at about 10a.m.

MR LAMEY: At what time did the other security policemen arrive that morning?

JOE MAMASELA: I've already indicated yesterday that they arrived between 07H30 and 08H00 a.m.

MR LAMEY: Now was anything done with Mr Hashe between 8a.m. and 10a.m.?

JOE MAMASELA: I wouldn't say whether there was anything done to him because he was not outside he was still chained inside.

MR LAMEY: So these assaults started at 10a.m.?

JOE MAMASELA: To the best of my recollection.

MR LAMEY: Was he kept in that shed-like garage until approximately 10a.m.?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, let's say at about half past nine, between quarter past nine and half past nine he was taken out for questioning and the assault in my opinion approximately at about ten.  I'm approximating, I didn't have a stop watch.

MR LAMEY: Yes.

MR LAMEY: What prompted the assault on Mr Hashe?  Let's talk about the first assault, this being now the first assault that started at approximately 10 o'clock.

JOE MAMASELA: I've said it yesterday that Mr Hashe, at one stage when he cross-examined and questioned, Mr Niewoudt posed a question that he caused black policemen to leave the townships and why and now these poor black policemen are pitching up tents in town.
	And Mr Hashe's response was: "That's good because the black people are staying in town for the first time and heaven doesn't fall and that's what the ANC stands for, for a non-racial democratic South Africa".  And that is the spark of the first assault on him, I've said it.

MR LAMEY: Which person started with the assault on him?

JOE MAMASELA: It was Niewoudt who started and Beeslaar was also there, myself, Mogoai, Koole, Venter and a whole lot of other people that I told this Commission that they were unfamiliar to me.

MR LAMEY: What was your role in this assault?

JOE MAMASELA: We were just told - because he was screaming and making a lot of noise because his hands were handcuffed from the back, he couldn't protect himself, we were told to try to stifle and - to stifle his screams and hold him down.

MR LAMEY: Is that while he was assaulted by the other people also?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

MR LAMEY: How did you stifle his screams down?

JOE MAMASELA: By holding his mouth very hard down.

MR LAMEY: Was he standing, Mr Hashe, was he on the ground?

JOE MAMASELA: He was on the ground, lying on the ground.

MR LAMEY: Did you bend down to stifle his screams?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, I did bend down to stifle his screams.  I cannot stifle his screams standing whilst he is on the ground.

MR LAMEY: Did Beeslaar simultaneously take a stick to put it against his throat?

JOE MAMASELA: After a while, after a while, after he was assaulted for a while Beeslaar went to look for a weapon also and he came out with a stick.

MR LAMEY: Were you the only one who stifled his mouth?

JOE MAMASELA: Myself and Piet we - Piet pinned him down and I tried to, I was busy stifling him and when he turns to Piet's side and I will try to bring him down and Piet will stifle him.  So it was an exchange between myself and Piet Mogoai.

MR LAMEY: And while you and Piet Mogoai were trying to stifle him, his screams, he was also assaulted?

JOE MAMASELA: He was continually assaulted.

MR LAMEY: Also by Niewoudt with the iron pipe?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

MR LAMEY: This hitting of the iron pipe, did it hit him on the head?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, on the head, on the body, all over.

MR LAMEY: So you - let me just, you and Piet Mogoai had quite a busy task to stifle his screams while he was assaulted?

JOE MAMASELA: That is true.

MR LAMEY: And while that was done he was hit by Niewoudt with an iron pipe?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

MR LAMEY: And also assaulted by the other people?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Was he also during this time, his screams or suffocated by the stick which Beeslaar used?

JOE MAMASELA: Ja, at a later stage when Beeslaar stifled him he was to a certain extent suffocated by the stick but he was always managing to shake his neck and twist his neck.

MR LAMEY: Did Beeslaar also join in in the struggle to stifle his scream, is that why he tried to use the stick?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.  You know sometimes he will be strong, we couldn't stifle him, the three of us big men there and others are beating.  Sometimes some of us, one will just leave and the other one will come in and the other one will drag him, his feet to keep him straight.  It was like a frenzy shark feeding frenzy, it was shark feeding frenzy.

MR LAMEY: But while you were struggling with the smothering of his screams, you and Piet Mogoai and Beeslaar, the assaults with the iron pipe by Niewoudt continued and also the other assaults by the other people?