Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-20

MR DONAN: I'm trying to be a little systematic about the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Donan, these possibilities exist, where are you getting?

MR DONAN: I understand that Mr Chairperson, I'm dealing with the criteria  and we're left with one.
	Now let's deal with the methods, was there any limitation or any instruction at all or any criteria for the methods of torture that could be used?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No.

MR DONAN: So, just to repeat, the torturer could - or the interrogator could use any torture method he felt inclined to use?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That's what it amounted to.

MR DONAN: Do you agree with me that there were some people who were specialised in various departments - like Mr Mostert who would deal with women?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, I can't agree.

MR DONAN: Mr Benzien who would use very, very violent methods, did he have that reputation with you?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: He had a reputation, yes.

MR DONAN: And the technique that would be used was that if he didn't speak to the other people - the other interrogators, you would let Benzien loose?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: The phrase: "let loose" is a bit of a problem for me.

MR DONAN: There has been evidence before this Commission, that Mr Benzien's reputation was not limited to you, activists in the Western Cape knew about his reputation.  And so they would be interrogated once detained, by people who could say: "Look, you can talk to me or you can talk to Benzien".  Did you know about that?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No.

MR DONAN: Did you know that Mr Benzien - part of his repertoire would be to ask the detainee whether he knew that Mr Benzien had killed Ashley Kriel?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No.

MR DONAN: Did you know that Mr Mostert had a reputation for abusing women and the same technique would be used with him?   A female detainee would be questioned by a good guy - a good cop, who would say: "Look, you can talk to me or you can talk to Mostert"?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, Chairperson.

MR DONAN: What did you know about the methods that were being used by your men?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I wasn't aware of specific methods.

MR DONAN: Did they receive any particular training in eliciting information from detainees?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, not as far as I was aware.

MR DONAN: And Mr Benzien specifically?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Not as far as I know.

MR DONAN: Just before I leave the method, there had been evidence that for example, Tony Yengeni, Ashley Forbes, Niclo Pedro were stripped naked - he used to strip men, have you any idea why he did this?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No.

MR DONAN: Was there any purpose in doing that - in your professional opinion?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, I really can't imagine what the purpose would have been except that it could act as a humiliating experience - certainly, yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I interpose Mr Donan?  General, are you saying that you didn't from time to time hold discussions with your men about the various methods - unconventional methods they were using on their victims?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Please repeat the question, I don't understand it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Didn't you from time to time hold discussions with your men about the various methods they were using on their victims - torture methods?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But surely one would have expected for those discussions to be held in view of the fact that a lot of pressure had been exerted by the politicians on the police, to contain the political situation in the country?  One would have expected you to have held such discussions in order to evaluate which method would be best to use in a given situation.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, as long I obtained successful results I didn't ask those questions.

MR DONAN: Thank you.  Now you said in your evidence that at a certain stage there was a decision to use unconventional methods, is that correct?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, that's not so.

MR DONAN: What was exactly the situation?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: The circumstances which existed at the time, these circumstances dictated that success was the only criterion.

MR DONAN: That's very specific, when did that happen precisely?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: It's impossible for me to say.

MR DONAN: Did it happen in the '60's, did it happen in the '70's, did it happen in the '80's?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, in '61, the armed struggle as such ensued and from there onwards the trend grew and developed.

JUDGE WILSON: But weren't the police using methods which they should not  have been doing - apart from the armed struggle?  I think any of us who have practised in the courts of South Africa over the last 30 years, have had innumerable clients who have told us about shock treatment that they suffered at the hands of the police.  Did you know that the police gave people electric shocks while questioning them?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I was aware of that.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you take part in it?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No.

JUDGE WILSON: Not even when you were doing the investigations yourself?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, when I was in the lower ranks circumstances were not quite like that.  I was transferred from South West Africa/Namibia when I was already a senior officer.

MR DONAN: Thank you.  In 1986 you were in East London, where you?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Correct.

MR DONAN: Just to finish with Judge Wilson's point, you seem to be a man who read a lot on the subject of your enterprise.  Did you ever read the book by Don Voster and Dennis Davis and Diane Sandler on: "Detention and Torture in South Africa - A Psychological Legal and Historical Study"?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No.

MR DONAN: This book for what it's worth, was published or is correct according to the authors, up to Republic Day the 31st of May 1986 as it then was and it lists 144 cases of female torture, 31 cases of - sorry, 144 cases of male, 31 cases of female and it splits it up into African, Coloured, Indian, White in total.  And every form of torture that has been spoken about in this particular application was a common application within South Africa - was commonly used by this particular time, so there was nothing novel about what Mr Benzien was doing insofar as interrogation was concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: Those cases relate to matters that were non-political as well.

MR DONAN: The impression I get from glancing through the book is that it is essentially political.  The point I want to make is that if the authors are correct and they've never been contradicted then as Judge Wilson says, these practices were going on in the early '80's at least and before then.

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is so.

MR DONAN: And when did you first become aware of them?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Very early on in my career.

MR DONAN: When was that?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: It's not possible to say, I can't get to a specific date.

MR DONAN: I don't want a date - I put you to decades, can you identify a decade when you became aware that torture was commonly used by the South African police in political cases?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, I don't know about commonly used - I can't give a date.

MR DONAN: Can you identify a decade when you became aware that torture was used at all by the South African police?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I can't.

MR DONAN: Doesn't it ring a bell because if I understood you correctly, there were standing orders that you were not supposed to use torture?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That is correct.

MR DONAN: And despite that, you can't in your memory, think of an occasion when it suddenly dawned on you that people are not obeying the standing orders?