Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-23

MS POSWA: Mr Maharaj, as we heard, as the evidence was or has been led, indeed Mr Steyn and Mr Botha had made this their own secret and had not divulged it to their seniors, but can you tell us, in your opinion, would the arrest and subsequent killing of Mr Ndaba and Mr Shabalala have improved the political position of the National Party in the negotiations or would it have matters worse for them?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I can understand how some junior officer could think that something like that would give advantage or no advantage.  Dozens of people had been arrested, detained illegally over the years.  Dozens of frame-ups had taken place, implicating even the Minister, Vlok had been involved in the fabrication of Shirley Gunn, the bombing of Khotso House, so illegal detention in the scale of horror was petty, nothing and as we know over the negotiations process, we had to negotiate not while one person was being murdered, we had to negotiate while hundreds of our people were being massacred on the trains and in the townships.  Pres Mandela has said, what is negotiation about except negotiating with the enemy.  He has told the Irish at Arniston, "you don't negotiate with your friends" and when we have said, "How do you sit down with this Bantustan leader?"  He has said, "but I sit down with de Klerk, who's hands are dripping with blood".  It would have made no difference.  It would have made no difference.  It's only a petty Intelligence officer who would read as if their small world constitutes the universe.  My own detention, Sir, I sat in detention for 4 months, from 25th of July.  Pres Mandela visited me twice.  I said "Don't bother to get me released, get on with the work of negotiating, you'll get me out in due course."  As long as I could get one assurance, "Do everything you can to make sure that they don't kill me out here."  So I don't think that the detention was a problem, I think the murder was heinous.

MS POSWA: Thank you, Mr Maharaj.  Was there anything else maybe which I might have left out, which you'd like to tell the Committee?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Chairperson, I came here to give evidence on behalf of the families but I've come here also really in pursuit of the truth.  What I find alarming is not just full disclosure, I find alarming false disclosure.  I've heard the evidence, I've heard political motivation, I have a sense that these two people were killed out of malice.  If I ever acted like that as an officer in Umkhonto weSizwe, as I've heard the General and Capt Botha say they behaved, they would not be fit to be officers of Umkhonto weSizwe and it was just the right ... (indistinct) guerrilla army, but it goes against the fundamentals of any army, any Intelligence Service, any police service, that  you should convey top secret things to juniors and not pass it to your seniors.  That's the most secure way of undermining any cohesive structure.  Confidences are shared upwards, not downwards.  When you share confidences downwards, then you have ensured that you are not fit to lead any team.

MS POSWA: Thank you, Mr Maharaj.  That will be all Mr Chairman, for now.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS POSWA

CHAIRPERSON: Subject to what you Gentlemen have to say, I would like to continue for some time.  I don't think we will manage to finish this today but we might get towards it.  But I bear in mind that there is one section of our community that works non-stop the whole time while the rest of us may not be.  Are you available to do a little more?  Right should we carry on for a little while.

MR WILLS: I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS

MS THABETHE: No questions, Mr Chair.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Mr Maharaj, am I correct that throughout this hearing of this incident, you have advised and instructed both Ms Poswa as well as Mr Wills on matters which you have heard evidence about here?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I have advised, not instructed.

MR VISSER: Advised.  And you have come to this Committee to give evidence, you say, on behalf of the families?  I'm sorry?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes.

MR VISSER: You have not come to this Committee to oppose the applications on your own behalf, have you?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Now that I have had the opportunity to give evidence and as I was listening to the evidence being presented, Chairperson, while Judge Mall was still Chairing, I did request to be allowed to conduct examination myself, because what I found startling was not just the gaps in the disclosures, but what I found startling was the falsifications.

MR VISSER: Mr Maharaj, just answer this question.  Did you come to this hearing to oppose, in your own name, the applications of, for amnesty, by the applicants?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I am saying, I did not come, but in the course of hearing the stories, I decided to oppose it too.

MR VISSER: But, have you got Exhibit I in front of you?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Exhibit I, yes.

MR VISSER: Well look at page 2, paragraphs 5, 6 and 7.  Applicants' motivation.  You refer there to short of a full disclosure, you refer to proportionality, you go on to 8 and you say the applicants need to say much more and you say that they haven't established that the murder was associated with a political objective.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes.

MR VISSER: Etc., etc.  Isn't that an allegation of opposition by yourself?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No, Sir, I have been put a set of questions by
Adv Poswa and she said to me, we need a statement from you to 
file, but you are in Johannesburg.  The sitting is starting in two 
days time, could you respond to these questions, and if you look 
at the last paragraph, it says:
 		"My own attitude to the application would depend on 
what they have to say under oath and in the course of
cross-examination at the actual amnesty hearing.  I 
support the Truth and Reconciliation Act and believe 
that only applicants who meet the criteria 
satisfactorily should receive the amnesty."  
And I am saying that over the past three days, listening here, has convinced me that at the present moment on the disclosure made, I should oppose it.

MS POSWA: Mr Chairman ...(intervention)_

MR VISSER: Just repeat that last answer please.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Listening to the evidence of Capt Botha and the evidence of Gen Steyn under cross-examination, I haven't heard his evidence in chief, but I've read it, I am now convinced that I myself feel I should oppose it.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MS POSWA: Mr Chairman, if my colleague could enlighten me.  Could my colleague enlighten me, what is the purpose of this line of questioning?

MR VISSER: Perhaps if she listens long enough, she'll find out, Mr Chairman, with respect.

CHAIRPERSON: I presume this is to show that this is not an independent witness, but a person with an interest.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: But that doesn't make me any more or less honest.

MR VISSER: We'll come to that Mr Maharaj.  Mr Maharaj, now where was I?  Yes, when you drew this statement and had it typed out, did you receive legal advice on the contents thereof?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No, Sir.

MR VISSER: You did this off your own bat?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes, straight off my bat with the secretary at  First National, First ...(indistinct) Bank.

MR VISSER: Well Mr Maharaj, the point of the matter is simply this, apart from it showing, or as you say it might not show, some prejudice on your part, I want to ask you this.  You are not in any way related to the late Mr Shabalala or Mr Ndaba, is that correct?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I don't know what you mean by related?

MR VISSER: Blood relationship.