Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: ... telephone him?  You did not telephone him and you did not, he did not telephone you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I have already indicated that when he contacted my residence, he got hold of my wife.  My wife invited him over.  He came in March.

UNKNOWN: Right.  Let us carry on.  Did you say words to the effect that,
"Lewis had discussed with Venter where he, Lewis, could obtain a pistol"?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I have already testified that when he visited I jokingly requested, because I was not sure of him, I jokingly requested of him as to whether he knew where I could get a weapon and he indicated that he did.

UNKNOWN: "And the reason why Venter was specifically
approached was because he was the most recent person who launched political activities in the area.".

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is rubbish, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Well, could you please help me, because I have some difficulty in understanding precisely what it means.  What does it mean to you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: This statement says clearly, Mr Chairman,
"The reason why Venter specifically was approached was because he was the most recent person who launched political activities in the area.".
This means nothing to me, Mr Chairman, and it is a lot of rubbish.

UNKNOWN: Do you not understand it, like me?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, this is rubbish.  I have said, ...

UNKNOWN: So, ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... how many times do I have to say that?

CHAIRPERSON: Let us get on, Mr Bizos.

UNKNOWN: Yes.
"Lewis was specifically asked for an unlicensed firearm."
When he came to me in March, I testified already, that is so, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: What reason did you have to believe that he was a person who was capable of supplying you with arms?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I did not believe it, Mr Chairman.  As I said, I ...

CHAIRPERSON: He said he cracked a joke.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... I, out of the blue, I asked him that.

UNKNOWN: Out of?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Out of the blue, I jokingly asked him to see whether he perhaps was such a person.

UNKNOWN: For how long had you known him?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I had not seen him prior to this for some years.  I think something like four years.

UNKNOWN: Despite that, you could trust him fully?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I have already stated that I was very cautious and that is why I put it like that, so that if he started getting serious I could say it was only a joke I made.

UNKNOWN: I am going to put to you that as in connection with the list, both you and your wife, are not telling the truth in relation to the circumstances of the purpose for which this gun was obtained.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That, Mr Chairman, is an untruth.

UNKNOWN: It is an untruth.  Let us just test that.  On page R, in pile R4, page 334.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: First or second portion of R4, Mr Chairman?

UNKNOWN: R4, page 334.  It is the second.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  You are there recorded as saying,
"I took the firearm for the first time out after arriving from the Cape.  I think it was the Saturday, the 3rd of April, the Saturday before the 10th of April.  Let me just be sure.  I showed it to my wife.  She knew I was looking for weapons in case the Government should withdraw the licensed weapons.  She just looked and said that it was interesting.  I said to my wife that it was an unlicensed firearm.  Yes, I said here is an unlicensed firearm.  Here I have now made a start.".
Did you say that to your wife?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, I did not.  That is not correct.

UNKNOWN: That is not correct.  You also give, gave evidence and you say how this gun was delivered to you on the, by innocent people on the pretence that it was a jersey or pullover.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That information was included in my application, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  What does this gun weigh?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not sure, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: More or less.  It is a fairly heavy firearm, is it not?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, it is not, Mr Chairman, it was a pistol.  Something which one can carry in the hand.

UNKNOWN: Yes, but there are light ones and there are heavy ones.  Which category did this one fall into?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, as far as pistols are concerned, this was a 9mm pistol and did not weigh any more than other 9mm pistols that I know of, except, perhaps, for the pistol I have read about, and that is the Glock one which is constructed out of some composite material.

UNKNOWN: By all accounts, it could hardly be compared to the weight of a jersey?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It was nothing to do with the weight of a jersey, Mr Chairman.  The idea was that it had to be wrapped in a jersey.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  You see, I am going to suggest to you, for a number of reasons which may emerge in the evidence more fully later, that you and your wife did not implicate Mr Venter and you tell a highly improbable story of how he came to give you this gun without knowing for what purpose it was going to be used.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, that testimony was delivered by Mr Venter when he was called as a witness to our trial and, in fact, it was on the basis of his testimony that the Judge President of the Witwatersrand decided to indemnify him from any prosecution.  So, I assume, he must have believed him.

UNKNOWN: If we may turn to the application of Mr Walus.  He says ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry, what bundle, Mr Chairman?

UNKNOWN: It is at bundle A.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Bundle A.

UNKNOWN: His application, paragraph, page seven, paragraph eight.
    Yes, Chair, not number, it is the third last from the bottom, Mr Chairman.  We numbered ours for my easy identification, Mr Chairman.  You take the one line as a paragraph at the bottom of page seven and go back.  
"Like many others ...",
on the right.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I have it.  Excuse me.

UNKNOWN: "Like many others on the right, he discussed what would be done to stop the de Klerk handover and like many others he laboured, harboured at the time vague plans to halt the de Klerk handover.  Some of these discussions occurred with Mr Derby-Lewis and with others in the Conservative Party.".
Now, were you aware of any discussions between Mr Derby-Lewis, between yourself - I beg your pardon - between Mr Walus and others in the Conservative Party?  I will repeat it for the sake of clarity.  Were you aware of any discussions between Mr Walus and with others in the Conservative Party?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, I was not, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Did, do you remember saying that when you heard of the murder you thought that he may have been set up?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, I did say that, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Who did you think might have set him up?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That was a knee-jerk reaction, because I could not...

UNKNOWN: I beg your pardon?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It was a knee-jerk reaction on my behalf, Mr Chairman, because I could not believe what I was reading in the media.

UNKNOWN: But what went through your mind?  Who could possibly have set him up if your case is that he and you jointly decided to have Mr Hani killed?  Who could have set him up?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I had no idea, Mr Chairman.  I only expressed that sentiment, because the circumstances surrounding his actions were very strange to me.

UNKNOWN: But what was so strange when you and he had agreed that you, Hani should be killed?  What was strange and what was it that you gave an idea that he was set up?