Human Rights Violation Hearings — Messina — 1997-04-08

THOMAS MANTHATA: We used to advise the God's nation.

DR RANDERA: Can you tell me, this question of banishment.  Did that happen to other members of the Advisory Board as well or was it only you and a few others ?

THOMAS MANTHATA: I didn't understand well your question.

DR RANDERA: If you were asked by Mr Klopper to come in and told to leave Messina.  Was that happening, did that happen to other members of the Advisory Board or was it only to you ?

THOMAS MANTHATA: It was me.  It was especially me.  I could say it was only me and other people must speak for themselves.  This Advisory Board.  He used to have criminals who were working for White people, because I used to cross-question them.  I would ask questions to white people.  I would, I would then have to find out from them before I could treat them, because I wanted to understand their question or I mean I wanted to understand where they came from and what was their backgrounds so I would ask and then I would have now trap them when they answered me.  That's how I used to treat them.  So these other people were fighting me, because if you want to talk about , issues you used to ask questions, said no, that's how God gave me, because I used to trap them.  I used to trap them completely and then I would explain to them, and say these are the issues and they couldn't go ahead, the couldn't give me any answers.

DR RANDERA: Mr Manthata, was it common in those days, we're talking about 1973 now.  Was it common in those days where, if the police or other members of authority did not like what, what others were doing, they would just banish them to some other area ?

THOMAS MANTHATA: In the Nancefield community, the Nancefield Municipal boss, before this Committee was established it was started by the Health Committee.  The Chairperson was an elderly person who was Mr Gemeri, who used to be the owner of the mine.  After that there was this Advisory Board.  There were three people who used to be elected by the community.  I'm sure you, you can, you in Pretoria can search and find who these people were but others were appointed by the White people, by the Municipal people and these are the three people.  Those are the people who used to fight me.  Those who were appointed by the Municipal.  They were just like real big issues because God gave me life, they didn't succeed.  Others even used to go to Witch doctors to fight against me and I wanted, I asked which doctor would, would make this person mad?  That's what they were trying to do, to make me mad but other people used to come and report this thing to me and eventually managed to make me mad in 1949 but God helped me.  They did not succeed and my ancestors also helped me so they didn't succeed to make me mad.  Old people said, I was very clear in what I was saying and at, later on at the station the, the Black toilet was in a bad condition.  There was a waiting room and I went to the other waiting room and, and then they built a better waiting room at the station.  At, at the platform.  When I arrived at the platform and then they asked, then I, they built this platform, station platform, because I told them that the other people are disabled.  They couldn't get into the train if there was no platform and the hospital, there were metal beds that people couldn't use them properly and I said there must be beds that were in good  condition.  Sick people could not sleep on beds that were in bad condition and indeed they did provide some new beds for the hospital and  this wa by Mr Katz who was our chairman. They sold the old beds at R1.... (tape ended)  three coaches and the Whites had their own coach and we Black people were not allowed to get into the other coaches for the White people and I was together with another man and we were waiting there and this other old man said, get inside, get inside.  You can't have this young boy get in.  I said sit down and not, sit down let us get in and this old man said, I'm not talking to you.  I said whoever you're speaking to, you're also speaking to me, because I'm also a Black person.  That White man called me and there were lots of White men around me and they wanted to question me.  When I got into the room they said to me, Alfuous, and I said, Sir and he he said to me do you know that there is a person who must control all these people and he said to me, next time when there's, there's a problem you must come to me.  You must not talk to anybody else.  You must come and report things to me.  He went to report me to his senior and they discussed about me and there were other White people who were favouring Black people but others hated us and they discussed and they come up with the decision that Black people should use three coaches and the White people two and they said to me, they read in a paper and they informed people that they will prepare three coaches for Black people and two for Whites and they did arrange that.

DR RANDERA: Mr Manthata, thank you.  Mr Manthata, I have no further questions.  Thank you for coming here to-day to, to help us understand what happened to you and what happened in this area in that, in that particular period that you're talking about.  I must say that despite all the difficulties that, and the experiences you've had, age has treated you very well.   I'm mean for a ninety, almost a ninety year old young man, you are doing extremely well.  Thank you very much for coming to-day.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you very much.