Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-23

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: When we got there we got out of the car, that is the four of us, myself, Able, Phillip and Kuku and Phineas was left in the car.  The yard there was quite massive.  Able and Phillip entered the yard.  I was left behind with Kuku but we were a little distance apart.  We went in through some corrugated iron door.  Able as well as Phillip proceeded inside and I followed them.  Able and Phillip pressed the alarm button.  There was a houseman in the yard who was sitting on the stoep or next to the stoep, I think he was cleaning the stoep and we went back.  We were left behind and we kept a watch because there was a certain lady who was in the swimming pool and we wanted to watch her movements so as not to disturb the other ones who had gone into the house.  I didn't pay much attention to what happened inside the house because I was keeping a watch outside the house and we were watching the movements of the lady who was sitting beside the swimming pool.  That lady approached us and we apprehended her.  We kept her under a watchful eye so that the other ones could come back with the guns.  I think she heard that there was some gunfire from inside the house and when they came out of the house they were already running.  They said that we should leave the place and we released our hostage and we fled the area and went back to our respective places.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you get anything from the house.

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: No there was nothing.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did they tell you what happened inside the house?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Yes they did explain to me.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Tell the Committee what did they tell you?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: When they explained to me they said when they go into the house they pointed a certain woman or they pointed a firearm so that she could show them the owner of the house and the woman said there is no other person besides herself and she wanted to grab the gun that Able had in his possession and as he was getting hold of the gun the trigger was pulled and the lady was shot.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just before I ask you the last question, I wanted to ask in your application at page 3, paragraph 11(a), a question has been asked "were there omission committed in the execution of an order of or on behalf of or with the approval of the organisation, institution, body or liberation movement, the department or security force concerned" and you wrote there "it was an order from me" and in brackets "Page Hlalele"

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Because I did not understand English I asked one of my co-prisoners to fill in the application form or assist me in filling in the application form but I gave him the details because I had asked him to fill in the application form for me, I think that's how he filled it in.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Are you saying that he made a mistake not to say it was Moses Mogaga or Morapapa who gave the order and he put in your name?  Did you tell him the person who gave you the order?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: He asked me and I explained to him that they were encouraged by him but he had no clarity.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just before this last question Mr Hlalele, you are before this Committee and you are applying for amnesty for this incident, can you tell the Committee why should it grant you amnesty for this incident?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: I'm requesting the Committee to grant me amnesty because what I did I did under the auspices of the organisation to which I belonged.  I was a relatively new recruit and a number of things or operations that were undertaken were done before I knew a lot or before I got fully conversant with the principles or the guidelines of the organisation.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Finally Mr Hlalele what do you say to the families of the deceased who are here?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: I'll first start asking for forgiveness from God who has created us all as elements of human nature, I have done wrong, I'm not proud of my deed and come to the members of the family that I have put through so much pain.  I know that it's not easy to deal with the pain because I also lost a parent or if I lost a parent I would feel in the very same way that they do and my relatives would have been disturbed by the incident.  I'm asking for forgiveness to the individual members of the family, that they should find it in their hearts to forgive me.  With those few words I'm saying that whatever happened in the past should not be repeated in the present and it should not happen in the future.  I do understand their pain, the pain of having lost a parent and I further request the Committee that is presiding over my case now, I'm asking for their forgiveness as well as members of the public or listeners, the entire African nation, I'm also asking for their forgiveness.  With those few words I'll say thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the evidence of the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.  Mr Prior?

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Madam Chair.
	Mr Hlelesi, was this your first and only operation as a PAC recruit?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct, sir.

ADV PRIOR: What training did you receive within the ranks of the PAC?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: I never received any formal training.

ADV PRIOR: So - and if I understand your evidence on this day that you went to rob this house in Brakpan, you never carried a firearm with you on that day, it was your colleagues that were armed, is that correct?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: I did have a firearm with.

ADV PRIOR: But at your trial in the Supreme Court you denied that you were armed, is that correct?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: But it wasn't true?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Yes that was not true.

ADV PRIOR: And you also at that trial you told the court that you were forced to participate, you were forced to go along.  I think Able threatened to shoot you if you didn't go along with him because you wanted to withdraw from the operation to rob, is that correct?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: No that is not true, whatever I said in court was not true because even if I had told the truth I was going to get convicted anyway.

ADV PRIOR: Do you agree that on that aspect again that you were forced to go along to participate was also untrue?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: And you also told the court that the blood on your clothing was from a nosebleed that you had sustained when you fell.  That was also untrue, is that correct?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Yes that is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Why must this Committee today believe you?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: Because I've come to tell the truth and that is why I have disclosed the truth, whatever I said in court or some of the things that I said in court were not true but I'm prepared to tell the truth here and now.

ADV PRIOR: You haven't told us everything Mr Hlelesi, why did you tell the Committee that you entered into the house?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: I never went into the house.

ADV PRIOR: Where did the blood come from?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: I hit or assaulted the one or the woman who was sitting beside the swimming pool, that's how I got the blood on my clothes.

ADV PRIOR: That was Emily Mokoena, she was an elderly black woman is that correct?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: And you struck her on the head repeatedly until she bled from those injuries, is that correct?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: I struck her only once and the blood splattered and Cook was close to me at that time, also assaulted the woman with butt of the gun.

ADV PRIOR: ...[inaudible]

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: I grabbed her and she tried to struggle free, I think I hit her with a fist and during the struggle I think her forehead or part of her face hit my chest, that's how I got the blood on myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you strike her?

PAGE HLALE HLELESI: She did not want to co-operate.