Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: operations, and you singled it out as a smalllittle trip that has to be considered on its own. You ignore the whole contextwhich he has given us that I was a member of this, I was a member of this militarywing operating this way and that way and then you singled it out and you takeit out of that general context and then you put it in isolation there.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE I don't seem to put it in isolation, however, it is clear ifwhat he says is true, he couldn't have been aware that that would be the effectof the attack, it may for all he knew, have been an attack on an

<UNKNOWN>: N

<UNKNOWN>: positionwhich would not have had the effect which he says is would have had.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What was the general objective of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: , the military wing?

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE That I can't speak for on behalf of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: , but certainly it wouldseem that their activities ...

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, hasn't the applicanttold us what it was all about?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: It also seems to be thathe was also involved in organisations which carried out defensive duties.

<UNKNOWN>: ut with due respect, Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge, that is the point that youactually covered, I think you went back to that point repeatedly. The Task Forcehe referred to was indeed a defensive unit, but the

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: unit that he has givenevidence to, was definitely something completely different to the Task Force,but he initially referred to he was recruited from the Task Force whose dutythen was to defend the community. He was recruited from that Force into the

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: unit which had a completely different function from the Task Force, thatis the evidence which is before us.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Perhaps I should askhim then what was the purpose of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: at the time?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: The purposeof the

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: at the time was to fight until the land was brought back to itsowners.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Who was that fight against?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: The land was taken by the White people, those who oppressed us at the time.It is clear that we were fighting against them.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Did theP

<UNKNOWN>: or

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: have any other enemies at the time?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No. I don'tthink so.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Did the P

<UNKNOWN>: ever, or

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: ever launch attackson other political parties?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I did not hear even in the newsabout that.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Were you aware of the nature of the weaponsthat were going to be used in this attack?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I knew aboutthe weapons that they would injure people, but I did not know that it wouldbe people in church.

<UNKNOWN>: ut I knew that the weapons were there to injure people.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Did you know that handgrenades with nails glued to them, wouldbe used in the attack?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: The handgrenades together with otherweapons, I was told to take a suitcase and I was told what was inside the suitcase,but I did not open the suitcase to see whether there were handgrenades, butthese were written down that in this suitcase, there are such and such weapons.I had to give them back to the person who sent me.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Youdidn't look inside and see for yourself?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, I did not.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE You say now you think it was wrong to attack the church if Iunderstood you correctly?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Now?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I thoughtyou have said a moment ago that you think it was wrong to have attacked thechurch? You don't think that?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I don't remember saying that.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Okay, what is your attitude now then to having attacked the church?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I sympathise with the people who died in the church and I wouldlike to ask for forgiveness to them.

<UNKNOWN>: ut we could not stop what was happeningat that time, we could not stop it at that time.

<UNKNOWN>: ut now there is peace.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Why could you not stop it at the time?

<UNKNOWN>: sI've already said at that time we were fighting for our country and for democracy.It was very difficult at the time to stop such incidents because this country,we were oppressed in this country, South

<UNKNOWN>: frica, we could not at all.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Do you think the attack achieved anything?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes, I think so because today we are in this country South

<UNKNOWN>: frica, we are livingtogether. We are not fighting with each other, we are here today to this Truth

<UNKNOWN>: ommission to give or to explain what we have done before.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Were you aware that there were negotiations going on about the new constitutionat that time?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes, I would listen to the news and I wouldhear about the negotiations.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Was that not a better wayof achieving peace and democracy?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: The P

<UNKNOWN>: did not see itthat way at that time.

<UNKNOWN>: ut it was an easy way because it did not tell

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: tostop fighting with the Whites at the time.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Do you haveany knowledge of why

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: denied responsibility for the attack at the time?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, I don't have that knowledge.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Do youthink it was in accordance with the P

<UNKNOWN>: policy at the time to carry out thatattack?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I think so.

<UNKNOWN>: an you explainthen why the P

<UNKNOWN>: said it was not?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: It was not what?

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE That it was not in accordance with their policy?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Would you like me to explain why the P

<UNKNOWN>: ..

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I am askingyou if you know why the P

<UNKNOWN>: said that that attack was not in accordance withtheir policy and why they condemned the attack?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, I amsorry, I don't know why they condemned that, maybe they can explain why theydeny it. I for one, I cannot explain.

<UNKNOWN>: re you aware thatthe P

<UNKNOWN>: was participating in the negotiations about the new constitution?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Which one are you talking about, which negotiations are you talkingabout?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: The negotiations that were taking place about thevery same that that attack was carried out, over the new constitution?

ADVDE JAGER: Wasn't it almost like the Prestasie advertisement - "strengthenour negotiating arm?"

ADV BEMBRIDGE: That may be, I am asking ifhe is aware that there was negotiations going on. Negotiations in Kempton Park?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I would listen to the news and see this in the news, but I didnot get a report about what P

<UNKNOWN>: said in the negotiations.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What did you do after the attack?

<UNKNOWN>: fter the attack, I wentto stay with my cousin and then from there, I went to the Transkei.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Did you report back to anyone, any of your superiors as to what had happened?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: What do you mean, where in the Transkei?

<UNKNOWN>: nywhere, in

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town or in the Transkei, did you report to anyone what hadhappened at the attack, anyone at

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: ?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, I told no one.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE So therefore you spoke to no one about the attack before it tookplace, you spoke to no one about the attack after it took place?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: ut you went as far as preparing petrol bombs, carryingweapons, all this for an attack which you knew nothing about?