Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-03

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I think Buthelezi's son must have realised that there was no way out, they were not going to escape and then he decided to speak out.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they being interrogated at the meeting?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: When they arrived at the meeting they were already assaulted Sir.  I'm referring to the three who were caught in E Section.

CHAIRPERSON: By the way, do you know who else was in this group?  It was Buthelezi's son, who else?  The other two, do you know their names?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I do not know their names.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, at the meetings, were these persons  interrogated?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We already had the information we were looking for, they were not assaulted, they were just taken and fastened Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Buthelezi's son just volunteer this information or was he asked anything so as to come up with this information that his father had sent them to Blanko's house?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I already said that they were assaulted, now it's hard to tell whether he gave that information because of the pressure or voluntarily.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he give this information at the meeting or on the way  ...[End of Tape 1, side A - no follow on sound]

MR MOTATA: Mr Motlokwa, when you say he gave the information at the meeting, upon their arrival, that is the three captured by the Sugar group, were they asked anything by the people or the SDU's who were gathered at the meeting?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: They asked them questions Sir.

MR MOTATA: Now, just assist us here, was there any specific person at the meeting who was the spokesperson who was, say, probably the one who was asking questions from the captured people?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MOTATA: Would you know who was asking questions from the captured?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I know Sir, who was asking questions.

MR MOTATA: Could you give us the name?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Ntjebe Ndondolo was asking the questions.

MR MOTATA: Thank you Mr Mapoma.

CHAIRPERSON: What questions did he ask?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He asked them questions about Blanko and Bulelwa's death.

CHAIRPERSON: What about those deaths?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He wanted to know who killed these two people.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did they say?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I already said that they admitted having killed them.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they mention any other person who was not present there, that is now at the meeting who had taken part in the killing of Bulelwa and Blanko?  I know at some point they said that Vips had killed Bulelwa.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they mention any other person as having taken part in the killing of Bulelwa as far as you can recall?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: They mentioned many names Sir, but I can't remember them.

CHAIRPERSON: Many names of persons who were involved in the killing of Bulelwa?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, members of the ANC Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: And what about in regard to the death of Blanko, did they give names there?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.  They told us their names, the names of all the involved people and then we wrote them down on a list but I don't know what happened to that list.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR MALAN: May I just have clarity?  You said Mokwena was one of the first two persons that you got hold of that night?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Chair.

MR MALAN: Did I hear correctly, saying that Mokwena was not a member of the Youth League?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Mokwena was a member of the Youth League Sir.

MR MALAN: Did you say the other person was not a member of the Youth League?

CHAIRPERSON: Tusanang.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Tusanang and Buthelezi.

MR MALAN: But Buthelezi was captured only at 5 o'clock you said.  At 3 o'clock you captured Tusanang and Mokwena?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, no Chairperson.  I already explained that at 3 o'clock we caught two people, that was Mokwena and the second one I do not know.

MR MALAN: It wasn't Tusanang?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, it was Tusanang.

MR MALAN: So it was Mokwena but the other one you did not know?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And then this Tusanang, who is he?  Did you ever capture him?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Tusanang was captured but he managed to escape at the meeting.

MR MALAN: Have you ever seen him again?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, he ran away, he fled Katlehong.

MR MALAN: And he was not a member of the Youth League you say?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, he was not a member of the Youth League according to my knowledge.

MR MALAN: But you did say yesterday that you saw Tusanang with an AK47 at Blanko's house when you were woken up.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: But he was not a member of the Youth League?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MALAN: Why would he have been there with the Youth League if the Youth League killed Blanko?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I think I explained yesterday that the third force must have been involved here in trying to get rid of the SDU because if you look deep into this, Buthelezi was not a member of the Youth League but he was involved, Tusanang was not a member of the Youth League but he was involved, so it really surprised us why were they involved in the killing of Blanko.

MR MAPOMA: So you confirm that Tusanang and Buthelezi were members of the community at Moleleki also?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, I would confirm that.

MR MAPOMA: Now let's come to the meeting which was chaired by or which was addressed by Machinini, where actually was this meeting held?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: This was a meeting at Blanko's place.

MR MAPOMA: Now, was it a community meeting which was convened or was it a place where people gathered to see what happened at Blanko's place out of interest?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I would say it was a community meeting because the vice chairperson of the zonal civic addressed them because after he arrived many people came.  The issue discussed was the death of these two people.

MR MAPOMA: Now, this chairperson, was it Machinini?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Did Machinini ask certain questions from the captured?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, Chair, he did not ask them questions.   I said Ntjebe Ndondolo was the person who was asking questions.

MR MAPOMA: Are you saying that Machinini who was chairing a meeting gave Ntjebe Ndondolo an opportunity to ask the captured?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I do not have evidence to that fact, as to whether Machinini gave Ntjebe a chance to ask them questions but Ntjebe is the person who was asking questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is Ntjebe?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I don't know, he's somewhere in the Transkei.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chair.
	Now when exactly did Ntjebe ask these questions of the captured, was it before the meeting or when the meeting was going on, when precisely?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It was during the process of the meeting but he called them aside, they were not in the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: He called the captured persons to the side and then questioned them?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present when that occurred, when they were being questioned?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I said Ntjebe asked them questions and he came to tell us their responses.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MOTATA: But Mr Motlokwa if you can assist us here, I want to understand this, that you said Buthelezi's son said at the meeting: "Dad tell us why you said we should go and kill Blanko or Bulelwa", but now you say Ntjebe called these captured people aside and asked them what precisely did he also now, that is Buthelezi's son, say it aside and Ntjebe coming to report to the meeting what Buthelezi's son had said.