Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-25

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you but if it's not related to the merits of the matter we're not going to be too harsh on leading questions Mr Cachalia.

AZHAR CACHALIA: It had an adverse effect on your, in your, on your employment.  Is that what you intend saying?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Now, Mr Tshizana, after this particular incident, and after the arrest, the applicants were released on bail.  Is that correct?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: Yes, they were released on bail.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And in September of 1994 you made an attempt to create peace amongst what has, became, what then afterwards became warring factions as a result of the death.  You tried to make peace.  There was a meeting to make peace.  Is that correct?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: That is correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: In your opinion, and I don't wish to lead you in this particular matter, in your opinion, was peace established as a result of that amongst the IFP and the ANC?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: People who were encouraging peace wanted to see peace, but it transpired that when we finished the meeting that we had trying to get opinions of the leaders, the leader of the IFP announced that if their brothers can be pressed down during the Court trial there will be no peace in Zevenfontein.

AZHAR CACHALIA: What do you mean by pressed down, please, Mr Tshizana?  What do you mean when you say the brothers could be pressed down in the Court?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: I think they wanted the situation where no witnesses would come forward.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Tshizana, you had a relationship, and I think it is somewhat common cause, before that day of the incident matters that were creating problems in your community were able to be resolved peacefully.  After the incident was that process carried on, or were you, was the relationship in the community so affected that it could not carry on?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: It was clear that we had lost negotiations between ourselves and the IFP with whom we lived together in the area from around 1992 right up to 1994 before the incident.

AZHAR CACHALIA: What is the relationship between the IFP and the ANC today in Zevenfontein?  Perhaps I should ask you are the IFP, are there still IFP members in Zevenfontein?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: No.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Where are they now?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: They are in Diepsloot.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Diepsloot was an area demarcated to move people from Zevenfontein to Diepsloot.  Did members of the ANC move to Diepsloot, or only IFP people moved?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: Yes there are some ANC members who went to join the IFP in Diepsloot?

AZHAR CACHALIA: But all the IFP people have moved?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Has your relationship, even 'though they are in Diepsloot, which for the purposes of the committee which is the informal settlement which is closest to the, where they're developing and area closest to Zevenfontein, has the relationship between IFP and ANC been ?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: There has not been any negotiations or discussion among the groups in Zevenfontein and Diepsloot.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Insofar as the people who were killed and injured, let's just take the late Mr Dastile, is his wife still living in Zevenfontein?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: No, she went to the rural areas.

AZHAR CACHALIA: For what reason?  Because there was nobody to support her here.

SIPHO TSHIZANA: Yes, for that reason and also the fact that her husband had died.

AZHAR CACHALIA: That's what I mean, alright.  Insofar as the people that were injured, I just used that as an example, I'm saying in so, the other two people that were members of the ANC we have today two ladies who are here who lived as common law wives or with the deceased.  We have Susan Mapuna and Cynthia, have they got any support systems that support them for a living?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: The same applies to them as is the case with Dastile's wife.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Except that they're still living in Zevenfontein?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: How do you feel about what happened Mr Tshizana?  What happened to you and to your colleagues in the ANC, the injuries, what has it caused you sir?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: On our side as the injured among the ANC this created quite a lot of suffering, and that we no longer have people that we can discuss things with, especially the IFP, and it made it difficult for us to support our families, because we were not able to work during the time when we were recuperating.  And some of our properties in our shacks were taken by the IFP.

AZHAR CACHALIA: That is the physical aspect of it mister.  How, you were traumatised obviously when you were, you get shot, whether in the leg or any other part of the body, it causes some trauma.  Have you been, in your mind, may I put it this way, in your mind have you been able to get rid of it and get along with your life?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: It is very difficult for me to rid my mind of this, because I was shot by people whom I trusted.  My hope is that there will ultimately be discussions and we will relate well finally.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you Mr Tshizana I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CACHALIA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Do you have any questions Mr Claassen?

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman, maybe just a single question.
	Mr Tshizana you've now concluded by saying you hope that ultimately there will be discussions and that the thing will resolve itself.  Would you not, do you not feel that in what had happened there have been a lot of casualties, if I may use the word, not injuries as such, but people whose lives suffered because of what had, what had happened there.  Not only on the ANC side but also on the side of the IFP?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: I would not say I dispute that, because I don't know how other people feel as individuals about what happened that day.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Tshizana just in conclusion, this was a very unhappy time for all the people in Zevenfontein.  It was, there was political unrest, there was political uncertainty and there were victims on both sides.

SIPHO TSHIZANA: I don't know how to put this on behalf of the injured, but yes, I was concerned and worried.  I cannot speak on their behalf 'though.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Claassen.  Mr Draht do you have any questions?

MR DRAHT: Only one thing Chairperson.  Mr Tshizana the applicants now stated that they're sorry about their part of the incident.  What do you have to say about that?

SIPHO TSHIZANA: I would like to say that, yes, it is true that when they say they want amnesty it is necessary that this Truth and Reconciliation Commission should know the truth.

MR DRAHT: That will be all Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DRAHT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Lockhat do you have any?

MS LOCKHAT: No questions Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: I take it there's no re-examination.  Advocate Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Tshizana for letting us know your feelings and for talking on behalf of the other victims, we appreciate that.  Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cachalia would you provide Ms Lockhat with a list of the victims and the immediate next of kin, you know the dependents.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I will do that.  I have in fact provided Ms Lockhat with, I was supposed to put it on record, I don't know whether you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: As long as we've got it.  Maybe at the end if we've got time, but it's not absolutely necessary, but as long as we've got a list.

MS LOCKHAT: We do have a list Chairperson, so that's in order.

CHAIRPERSON: Because it may be that this will be referred to the Reparations Committee.

AZHAR CACHALIA: That is all the witnesses that I wish to call.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Cachalia.  Mr Claassen, are you in a position to argue?