Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-09

MR DLAMINI: Baba Moleke, before I hand you back to the Chairperson I just want to thank you for the manner in which you have shared with us your experiences which were very painful and traumatic and also with permanent effects on you as a person.  We have noted that you would appreciate some help from the Commission.  We have noted the things that you wanted to do which you couldn't do because of what happened to you.  As we have been saying to other people that all those requests and wishes will be conveyed to the State President who will decide on a possible way of saying to you, "I do understand."  There are too many of you and I don't  think he will have enough resources but I'm sure he would like to say to you, "I do understand."  And, Mr Chairman, just before I hand over to you, what Baba Moleke has shared with us reminds me now and again I come across friends, especially white colleagues and friends.  The comment they make to me is that, "Don't you think that these people are exaggerating?"  And so what Baba Moleke was saying today to us, I think for people who have never been exposed to this, it will sound as an exaggeration, but for us who are always hearing people with such an experience, we know that he's telling the truth.  I just wanted to make that comment.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any questions?

PROF MAGWAZA: Baba Moleke, in your statement you have actually indicated the things you suffer from physically.  You said you have "a paralysis in my right leg, 70 per cent hearing deficiency, impaired sight and other physical malfunctioning".  That's quite serious.

WITNESS:   That's true, yes.

PROF MAGWAZA: Are you getting treatment now for any of these conditions because you said ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   I'm not getting any treatment because I'm not working.

PROF MAGWAZA: Have you ever received treatment for your physical conditions because you said you didn't go to the doctor at that time?  Have you ever received treatment?

WITNESS:  When my son was working he used to give me money to buy medication, but after losing his job he couldn't give me money any more.

PROF MAGWAZA: Secondly, when people are tortured in detention the torture is not only meant to be physical, it's meant to  destroy the person mentally.  How are you feeling mentally?

WITNESS:   I'm really disturbed.  I don't have a good life.  I'm really struggling.

PROF MAGWAZA: Are you getting a disability grant?

WITNESS:   Yes.

PROF MAGWAZA: Can you tell us a bit about your wife.  You said she was not feeling well.

WITNESS:   My wife was a sickly person but she was going for treatment at Voortrekker Hospital and she was much better and she could work.  She could iron and cook but after this incident her life changed and she was a totally different person.  As the father of the house I cannot even sleep with my woman.

PROF MAGWAZA: Ja, thank you very much, Baba.  I think what you have said, you have shared with us, you've opened your heart and shared with us very deep information about yourself and your family and you have touched our hearts very deeply.  I think all I want to say is that I wish I could have the same strength.  I think most of the people could be feeling the same in this room that you are a very strong man and that you are a model to many of the people.  We have noted your requests.  You are one of the people whom we'll make recommendations about your needs and we hope that in the future your life could be made easier.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Regina?

MRS GCABASHE: Thank you, Chairman.  Mr Moleke, we have listened to the troubles you've been through.  You said earlier on you said earlier on you were transferred to Seisoville.  Who was in charge of that police station?

WITNESS:   I can't remember.  It's a long time ago.  It's difficult to remember how was in charge.  The other thing that makes me forget is that I never even gave my  evidence at all.  It was just a game.  Nothing was written on paper.

MRS GCABASHE: The other question that I want to ask is this one.  You talked about a person who says at Bren Park.

WITNESS:  His name is Gabriel Eland.

MRS GCABASHE: Has he passed away?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MRS GCABASHE: You said you were accused No 4.  Who were the other accused?

WITNESS:   My son and his friends.  I don't know how was I involved, how did I come to be accused with them.

MRS GCABASHE: Do you remember their names?

WITNESS:   Yes, my son is Peter and this other one's surname is More and I do know the other one.

MRS GCABASHE: Why were they accused No 1, No 2 and No 3?

WITNESS:   They were involved in a criminal activity.  They were arrested for criminal acts.

MRS GCABASHE: And now?

WITNESS:   They used a firearm.  There was a State firearm that was stolen from Tabanelo who was even suspended because of losing a firearm.  That is why at an ultimate end the police thought the revolver was with me.  But at the end they could get hold of the firearm and I do not know where they got hold of it.  I think they got it in the train.

MRS GCABASHE: Thank you, Sir.  It's clear that you were accused for other people's acts.  I remember this Society of Young Africans.  It was a really good organisation.  It wasn't just teaching people.

WITNESS:   I want to thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ndade Moleke I want again to reiterate what has been said by my colleagues here.  In fact the great victims are those who tortured you because they lost all  /their
their humanity, humanness, ubuntu.  It is only the beasts or wild animals, which don't have the image of God, could treat a person like that.  That is why Mr Mdu Dlamini said that we would like to get in touch with Mowale and Tabanelo because, if the Act has to do the healing of the nation, they need to be healed too.  They need to come forward and say why they treated you in this bestial manner so that they can also be helped as the victims as perpetrators.  And of course, if they don't come, as Brother Dlamini said, we will have to subpoena them to come forward.  They are going to know about this because the media is here.  They will be hearing their names.  Maybe it would be better for them to come even forward before the are subpoenaed.  We thank you for your courage and it is just God's miracle that you still have the memory of saying what you say after having been tortured in such a manner.  Please convey our greetings to your wife.  We are sorry that this thing has also affected your marriage life as you have just said.  You were so tortured that your marriage life has also been affected by this kind of a torture.  Thank you for coming, showing the courage.  May God bless you.  Thank you.
/CHAIRMAN

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether No 3 has arrived?  (Pause)  No 4?  Has No 4 arrived?  No.  So then we call forward Josias Moago Monokoane to come forward.
EXCHANGE OF GREETINGS BETWEEN CHAIRMAN AND WITNESS

CHAIRPERSON: Monokoane, you have come here to tell the stories about the Comrades who became the victims, who suffered and before you can tell your story about these Comrades you are expected to take an oath and say that, God being your helper, what you have got to say is true.

JOSIAS MOAGO MONOKOANE: (Sworn states) (Through Interpreter)

CHAIRPERSON: Josias, the person who's going to lead you in this process and help you when you tell your story is Mrs Regina Gcabashe.  Thank you.

MRS GCABASHE: Let me start by saying I thank you for being here today to appear before the Commission to tell us about what you know about our black history which we want to close this chapter and before we close this chapter we should know all the truth about what happened.  As you know that in your statement you know what you have written, I would say before we start to tell us you've come to tell us of your account and the other Comrades' accounts.  I want you to start with your own family.