Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-15

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The name Carl Zimbiri was adopted by the high command to be used as one of the names whereby APLA commanders will claim responsibility under it.  So, in this incident I was referring to Sipho.

MR LAX: Okay.  So, that was just another alias of Sipho then?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Not per se.  I may use it, even myself.

MR LAX: Okay.  When did you come back into the country?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: '92.  Around June, I think so.  June/July '92.

MR LAX: And where were you deployed initially at that time?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Transkei.

MR LAX: In the Transkei.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Sterkspruit.

MR LAX: It was only later that you then moved to - when did you move to the Johannesburg area, Soweto?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Now lately, '93.

MR LAX: Only in '93.  Can you remember more or less when in '93?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I think around February, earlier in the year.

MR LAX: Who else formed part of the unit that Kenny and Godfrey and Peter were involved in?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It was Musa.

MR LAX: Was it Musa.  Just the four of them?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: And did you command any other units in addition to that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: There will be units having their own commanders.  I would be in charge myself as original commander.  They will report to me.

MR LAX: Yes, that's precisely what I'm asking.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Like the unit that carried out the operation in Eikenhof.  It was their reporting to me.

MR LAX: I'm just interested how many other units may have operated under you as regional commander?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: There were many units, and I don't know how many were there.  I don't want to guess.

MR LAX: And did you report the individual operations through to the directorate on a regular basis?  I understand it was practice to report, to send reports of operations through to the director either by courier or by telephone.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, I did report reports if there were attacks or whatever.

MR LAX: And did you report this attack in Diepkloof?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I've done it I think telephonically, if my memory still serve me well.

MR LAX: Ja, no, that's correct, telephonic.  So it was this particular attack.  Did the Eikenhof attack take place before this one, this Diepkloof attack?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: And did you do that report on that attack?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Now, where did you get these explosives from?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I get them in Transkei.

MR LAX: And did you personally go to the Transkei to collect them and courier them up, or did you get someone else to do that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No, it was my courier.

MR LAX: And where and who in the Transkei would they have come from?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: From Sipho.

MR LAX: Who was your courier?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It was Jojo Manqgela.

MR LAX: Jojo.  Sorry, just repeat the surname.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Manqgela or Manqdela.  I think so.

MR LAX: Okay.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Mr Chairman, it was Lawrence Manqdela. They call him - other name was that it was General.  He's the late, he died in a car accident, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: In the Yeoville attack, apart from Godfrey, Musa and Patrick, who else formed part of that group?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I think they were the only three people who were there.

MR LAX: Ja.  Because in the judgment of that trial there is mention of a fourth person who joined them and met with them and then disappeared again.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: In my knowledge there were only three.  I heard it also in court, whilst we were sitting in court.

MR LAX: Ja.  Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Dolo, the Yeoville attack happened on the Saturday.  You've already told me that.  But was it planned a few days prior to that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I know about the incident or the question of this police station to be attacked prior the attack at Diepkloof.  I think it was on Saturday, early in the morning, whereby Patrick Mochundu and Musa came to my place and they wanted to discuss this matter.  So I told them that I will met them later after 10 minutes or 20 minutes at Godfrey's place.  Then I went to their place with the explosives and I showed them how to work them out, and they said they were going to proceed to attack the police station.  Then I left them there.

CHAIRPERSON: This appears to have been a set up.  You said that Musa turned out to be a police informer?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In the group?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And that the police then, one assumes, must have been tipped off that this is what was going to happen?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So in a sense it was really a set up in a way?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It was after all a set up.  Even in court, it was revealed even in court.

CHAIRPERSON: Does this Yeoville attack also fall under the special operations?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That you referred to earlier?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you testified that was part of response to the swoop on the PAC/APLA by the police?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And it would have been in line with the general approach to those special operations that you've referred to?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But was most of this you knew that there was this plan to attack a police station, but was most of that done by the unit and they just approached you when they were on the verge of actually executing the attack, and they wanted the explosives to use in the attack?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The attack of that police station at Yeoville, it was supposed to be done prior the one at Diepkloof.  Then after the incident of Diepkloof then we decided then to continue with this one of Yeoville.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  So, you were kept abreast, you were kept informed?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I assume there was reconnaissance.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The accused used to go to that area.  I think every weekend they used to go there.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Lax?

MR LAX: So, do I understand you correctly from what you've just said, that in fact when you started your evidence you spoke of an attack on a police station in response to the swoop, and you spoke about that being aborted for various reasons and Musa's vehicle breaking down, and just seemed to be dilly and dallying, that's the way you put it, if I remember your words correctly.  At which point you then took charge and pushed the operation a bit harder.  Is that the attack that was supposed to happen on Yeoville that didn't happen until after the Diepkloof attack?  Have I understood you correctly?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: No, the ones that happened prior the one at Diepkloof were the one that took place on the 26th.

MR LAX: Yes.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: And also on the 27th.  The one of Yeoville was known even prior those attacks, but it was also added now as part of this campaign but the APLA to respond to this aggression.  That's how I acted.

MR LAX: Okay.  So, that's what I was wanting to clarify.  It was in fact not a special operation initially, it was one you were planning before that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: All operations that were under my command were part of special operations.

MR LAX: Okay.  Let me put it differently then.  It wasn't an operation in response to the swoop initially?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, initially.

MR LAX: But it was then brought under that ambit.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Once the swoop had happened and once those instructions were given?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: That's it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo, re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just if the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.