Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 2000-02-15

CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready to proceed?

MR DEHAL: Judge, insofar as I'm concerned, yes indeed but for the heat I'm ready.

MR PANDAY: I'm also ready Chairperson.
	Thank you Chairperson.  Chairperson, we've now finally located Alzina Luthuli and the victims would like to call Alzina Luthuli.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you arrange for her to sit somewhere so she could give evidence?

MR PANDAY: I believe yesterday that the applicants placed the previous witness.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Where is she?

MR PANDAY: Alzina Luthuli, she's in the gallery.

CHAIRPERSON: Doesn't the other microphone work?

MR SIBANYONI: It does Judge but for the purposes of the camera that position is the only position.

JUDGE DE JAGER: I really think it's not a good arrangement for a witness of a victim to sit between the legal representatives of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's bad luck for the camera but I think she would be more at ease if she sat over there and the applicant can come back and sit next to his attorney.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Or otherwise the applicant's attorney should kindly move to another table.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems to me it would be perfectly possible to move the desk at which the applicant's attorney is sitting to adjoin that other desk so they have sufficient room for the applicant, legal advisors and the applicant and then we would have one desk over here where the witness or any other future witnesses can sit.  Is it possible, could it be done immediately?
	What language would you be speaking in?

INTERPRETER: I think it's Zulu.

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: (sworn states)

MR PANDAY: Ms Luthuli, how old you at present?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: I'm 25 years old.

MR PANDAY: And where are you currently residing?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: At Umlazi.

MR PANDAY: Now on the 1st January 1992 where were you residing?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: I resided at Umkababa in the Dlanzini district.

MR PANDAY: And tell me do you know Mfanafuti Mbukazi?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes I do.

MR PANDAY: Who was he to you?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: He is the father of my child.

MR PANDAY: And in particular in 1992 were you going out with him, or his girlfriend?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes I was his girlfriend.

MR PANDAY: Now just before we go any further, you mentioned that he is the father of your child.  How old is your child at present?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: The child is eight years old.

MR PANDAY: Now tell me, on the 1st January 1992 were you in the company of Mbukazi?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes I was.

MR PANDAY: Now I'd like you to tell the Committee, on the 1st January 1992 what took place while you were in the company of Mbukazi?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: On that day we left my home for the market.  Mr Mbukazi accompanied me to the market and we met Lee and Luazi on the way who passed us.  Gebu came following the two persons.  My boyfriend then turned and went to these persons and on their return they immediately started assaulting him.  When they did that I was standing by because there was nothing I could do.  They fought up and till they overpowered him at which point Kwazi produced a knife, gave it to Gebu who stabbed him.  After the first stab wound I ran away, fled to the market and from there I tried to get into a taxi to go report the matter to his home.  Whilst I was still waiting there ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: Can you go a little bit slower?  Could you ask her to go a little bit slower, we've got to write down the things.

MR PANDAY: What happened on the day in question?  Take your time, go through it slowly because everyone needs to write down what happened on the day.  Now you ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Who gave the knife to another person, the names, I've missed the names, before the stabbing started?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Kwazi produced the knife.

MR PANDAY: Kwazi, are you talking about Kwazi Mbambo?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Right, now you mentioned Kwazi Mbambo gave the knife to who?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: He gave it to Gebu.

MR PANDAY: Right, now who else was with Gebu and Kwazi?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: It was Lee.

MR PANDAY: What was the full name of Lee?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: I know him as Lee, his surname was Msomi.

MR PANDAY: Right now after Kwazi gave the knife to Gebu what happened thereafter?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: He was then stabbed.

MR PANDAY: ...(inaudible)

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Now this stabbing incident in which area did it take place?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: It was at Zanzini at Umkababa.

MR PANDAY: And due you recall any particular place, what area?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Please repeat that question?

MR PANDAY: You said the stabbing took place in Zanzina in Umkababa.  Can you recall near any specific spot where this incident took place?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: It was on the road after you just passed Umkababa school.

MR PANDAY: And what was the name of that school?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Umkababa, Umkababa City School.

MR PANDAY: Now do you recall any ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: Do you know the - where's the - do you know the Power School?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes, that is not a school but it is close to Umkababa City School.  It is a power plant or power station.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So it's the same school that's sometimes been referred to as the Power School?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes, that's because the power station is close to the school.

MR PANDAY: Now after the stabbing took place near the school what did you do thereafter?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: I then ran away, headed for the market and on my arrival there I left my key with a certain lady.  I returned to the road looking for a taxi to take to Mfanafuti's home.  Before I could board a taxi Mbambo approached and he had Mfanafuti in his vehicle and that is when they also took me to the hospital.

MR PANDAY: Mbambo approached?  You say Mbambo approached?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: He was the owner of the vehicle that was transporting him.

MR PANDAY: That's not the same as Kwazi Mbambo?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: No, he is Kwazi's father.

MR PANDAY: Now the applicant Ngubane, Gebu, Ngubane testified that Mbukazi together with six or seven other people had attacked him.  Would you be able to comment on his version?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: I dispute that, he is lying.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he have a gun of any sort with him?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: No he did not, he did not own a gun.

MR PANDAY: Mr Ngubane, Gebu Ngubane, also testified ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: Would you perhaps refer to him as the applicant and to the deceased as the deceased, if you could follow that because that would make it much easier?

MR PANDAY: Yes Mr Chairperson.
	Alzina, you know that Gebu is the applicant in this matter?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes I heard.

MR PANDAY: If I refer to him as the applicant you will know I am talking about him, right?  Now the applicant also testified that the deceased had attacked them in the Dangane area, I may have pronounced it a little bit wrongly.  Would he be correct in that version of his?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: He is lying.

MR PANDAY: Tell me did you give evidence in court?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes I did.

MR PANDAY: And the evidence that you give here today, was it the same evidence that you gave in court?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: Now Alzina, just one more question.  Do you know if the deceased was a member of the IFP or not?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: I do not bear that knowledge.

MR PANDAY: And where was he residing at the time?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: He resided at Clermont but at the time he was visiting home at Umkababa.

MR PANDAY: And with who did he live at Umkababa?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: With his family.

MR PANDAY: ...(inaudible)

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: At Zanzini.

MR PANDAY: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY