Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: No, he chased us days before.  On that day we killed him I just saw him at about four o'clock.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ... the date of his death?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Not.

JUDGE WILSON: Four  o'clock in the afternoon was it, when you just saw him?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ... when you shot the deceased, how far was he from you?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: He was present.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How far was he from you?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: How can I estimate the distance?  Do you see that cameraman?  He was just there and I was here at this table that I am sitting at now.  It was just that distance.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Four to five paces.   At the time when  you shot at the deceased what did Mr Faltein do?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: He also had his firearm in his hand.  He was kneeling with his knee but I never heard any shot from his gun, really.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: As you say, he had knelt down, he was on his knees and he had produced his gun.  Would you say the manner in which he held his gun and the manner in which he knelt  down he was about to do something with the gun?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's correct, he was going to use the gun.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Besides the non-use of the gun by Mr Faltein, what else did he do, Faltein?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Are you referring to what I did to the deceased,  after killing him?
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: /...
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ... on the deceased.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Nothing, Sir.  He did nothing to the deceased.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: After you had killed the deceased, what did you do?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I just stood and looked at him and I was telling myself he didn't know what he was doing.   I didn't run away after shooting him, I just stood and I walked away after a few minutes.  The township was now jubilant.  People were really shouting words of happiness.  There was peace in the township.  People were happy after the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: We are talking about the incident itself, at the time of the shooting.  Not what happened after the shooting.  You say that after you shot him you stood there, you looked at him and you walked away.  You did nothing else.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Nothing else, Sir

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If we can be told by a witness a deed that has been done, that it is the deceased who first gave chase on you people and whilst chasing you, you turned around and shot at him, will that be correct?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That the deceased chased me and I turn around and shot at him, yes, that's correct, Sir, because when they came out of 658 they had their guns in their hands and they said there are the comrades, let us shoot at him and they said there is Themba, they knew us very well.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Going back a little bit as to the shooting itself and the circumstances thereof, I get the impression that you shot at the deceased you shot the deceased at the time when you were on your way to go and report to the Executive Committee, am I correct?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: No, that is not correct, Sir.  That is the version
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: /...
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What is the version then?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I was from the squatter camp which happened to
be my hiding place.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Where to were you going, or did you go straight out to go and kill him?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I was from the squatter camp heading for my home in the Xhosa Section.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What were you to do at Mqukeni?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: The fellow comrades in the struggle stay in the squatter camp and most of the times I'd be in their presence.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Then from there you are on your way home.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When were you to report to the Executive Committee that you are around?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I reported on the same day of my arrival, that  is the day I reported to the Executive Committee.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The gun which you said you got from the ANC branch, which branch was it?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: It was the Khutsong branch.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ... branches have names, Sir.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: It was Khutsong branch.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who is the chairperson of the Khutsong branch.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Dan Mzeko.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: (Question inaudible)

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's correct, Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When you were given this gun by the leadership of the Khutsong ANC branch, what were you to do with it?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I was supposed to defend the community with this gun.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was that your instruction by the leadership?
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JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: /...
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JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's correct, Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Finally, the killing of David Mayeko, was it
ever discussed at an ANC meeting or an SDU meeting?

CHAIRPERSON: Before the incident or after the incident?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Before the incident.  Was it ever discussed that this man has got to be removed?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Yes, at school we used to talk about this David Mayeko issue, that was before he was killed.  You know some of the comrades at school were talking about this issue.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If this was discussed by the leadership either of the self-defence unit or the ANC Executive or the ANC Youth League?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: No, I only heard it being discussed at school as a member of the ANC Youth League and I was supposed to be present and listening to what the discussion was all about.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Neither the self-defence unit nor the Khutsong branch ANC nor the ANC Youth League ever discussed the death of Mayeko.  Is that what I should gather from you?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: No, it is not that way,  Sir.  The way I explained this, I was still schooling and many students died and that is why I say to you this issue was discussed at school that this man has finished the community and he has finished the students, he has to follow them, he has to be removed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Ncube, I am talking about structures, well-known structures, whether this was discussed at any of the three structures?  I am not referring to the township.

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: No, I never heard of this in the ANC offices, I have never heard of any discussion of any kind.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The SDUs?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I also heard it from the self-defence units.
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BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: /...
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BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why does it take you so long really to come
to such simple answers?  Now when was it discussed by the SDUs?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: We were patrolling at night and as we were busy patrolling we were talking about this issue.

CHAIRPERSON: ... find out whether this was decided or discussed at a meeting and a decision taken.  That is what you are really after, isn't it?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was this discussed or decided upon at any meeting of a formal structure?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I think I can always say that the killing of David Mayeko was discussed by the SDU, the self-defence units as we were patrolling, but the decisions I never came to know as to whether Mayeko was supposed to be killed or not.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Let's try for the last time.  The discussion by the SDU, was it done at a meeting?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: Not in a meeting, Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: By pumping David Mayeko with a pump gun, what did you want to achieve?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: I wanted peace from this man.

CHAIRPERSON: I got the impression that you shot him because you were afraid that he was going to shoot you.  Is that the reason?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: No, I was just trying to tell the Committee that their attack was in such a position that I was also supposed to defend myself.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In your response to the Chairperson you say you were defending yourself, is that correct?

JOHNSON THEMBA NCUBE: That's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In other words, what you wanted to gain was your 4	life/...
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life.