Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-20

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: It is not something which happened all of a sudden, it developed gradually so for me to actually give you a specific date and say that from then onwards I became aware of it - I simply can't.

MR DONAN: You still don't even want to have a go at a decade?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No.

MR DONAN: Okay, we'll leave it there.  I want to deal on last time with the question of orders because I understand you, the orders that were coming above - in the standing orders and the various regulations promulgated under the security legislation, required you not to torture people.  Is that correct?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Correct.

MR DONAN: Was there ever to your knowledge at any stage in your career, an order or direction that you may use torture or that you should use torture?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No.

MR DONAN: So then, would it be correct to say that every applicant who comes to this hearing for amnesty for torture, did not receive superior orders?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Not in a direct way but as I've explained the whole system to you yes, in that way because it was ignored, it was condoned and there was tacit approval.

MR DONAN: But nobody can rely on a direct superior order to use unconventional methods?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, that would be outrageous, you can't say that because I wouldn't in any event be aware of the circumstances of each application.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You can only say: "As far as you know"?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: That's all I'm trying to say.

MR DONAN: As far as you know - and you were the head of the investigation unit in the Western Cape between 1983 and '85, there was never any standing order?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, definitely not.

ADV DE JAGER: Could we perhaps make a distinction here as it's not very clear to me.  There was no standing order but where there ad-hoc orders?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, not as far as I knew.  All I can say is that the commanding officers knew about the events and incidents and their conduct made it such that the sub-ordinates would assume that their conduct was being approved of.

ADV DE JAGER: If you weren't directly involved, did you perhaps hear of a direct order, perhaps to Dirk Coetzee or to de Kock to eliminate a person?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: What I heard I actually heard via the media, in no other way.

ADV DE JAGER: So you were not aware whether in some cases there might have been direct orders or not?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No, it's very surprising - I recently heard the evidence of General Gerrit Erasmus, that he in fact gave the orders for somebody to be killed.  This was when he testified in Port Elizabeth, and that was very strange to me.

MR DONAN: Did you ever in the course of your career, use or hear the word: "eliminate" - in the course of your duties?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I know the word.

MR DONAN: What does it mean?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: It depends on the context in which it is used.  On the context which I see has caused a great ...[inaudible] regarding the interpretation of the word, it's very simple and I have no - I don't need a dictionary for that.  If this word is used in the context where there's a reference to an enemy who is trying to overthrow your Government by violent means, then it can mean only one thing and that is to kill him.

MR DONAN: Did you ever receive instructions to eliminate anybody?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No.

MR DONAN: Did you ever give such an order to eliminate anybody?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: No.

MR DONAN: To go on where I said we would end off, you say in your last paragraph
"I have no doubt in my mind that if it wasn't for the fact that these members believed that they could rely on the protection of their senior officers and the politicians, these specific acts would never have been committed"
Can you tell the Committee what indications there were that torture would be condoned or they would be protected - your members, your - members of your various units and people under you or above you?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: The easiest example to perhaps give is the case of Mr Benzien.  There were certain charges laid against him - administratively speaking, a medal was awarded to him for combating of terrorism with out him ever having done border duty - that is the simplest way in which I can answer the question.

MR DONAN: So that illustrates your point?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Absolutely.

MR DONAN: Who gave him the medal, whose decision was it?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: It would have been the Minister.

MR DONAN: And who was the Minister at that time?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I have to guess, I think it could have been Minister Vlok.

MR DONAN: So you say if he was - if Minister Vlok was the Minister at that time, he would have both known that Mr Benzien was using torture and with that knowledge he would nevertheless have given him a medal?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: He must have known because he should at least via the media have been aware of charges being laid against Benzien. Perhaps I could qualify myself here, if he - didn't he perhaps or if he didn't launch an investigation afterwards, he must have known.

MR DONAN: Why is that?  Why must he have known?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I can't express myself with more clarity than I have just done.

MR DONAN: Let's deal with another person - applicant before this Committee as I understand it, a Mr F W de Klerk leader of the National Party.  He says in his application - sorry, it's a statement to the TRC, I withdraw the application part of my submission.  He says
"In dealing with the unconventional strategies from the side of the Government, I want to make it clear from the outset that within my knowledge and experience, they never included the authorisation of assassination, murder, torture, rape, assault or the like.  I have never been part of any decision taken by Cabinet, the State Security Council or any Committee authorising or instructing the Commission of such gross violations of human rights, nor did I individually directly or indirectly ever suggest, order or authorise any such action".
Have you heard that statement before?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, I have.

MR DONAN: I'd like your comment on it because you've said that Mr Vlok who was within the Cabinet - or whoever his particular Minister was at the time, must have known that torture was being used.  What is your comment on Mr de Klerk's statement insofar as torture is concerned?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I don't think that he's denying that he was aware of it, it sounds to me as if he's denying that he ever gave orders in that regard or was aware that orders were given in that regard.

MR DONAN: So it's a very carefully worded statement?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: Yes, it's a political statement.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether this line of cross-examination is going to take us very much further.

MR DONAN: No, no, there's one question.  I just want to know whether, like Mr Vlok, Mr de Klerk must have known that torture was being used systematically or by anyone in his department?

JOHANNES LODEWIKUS GRIEBENAUW: I'm speculating now but it's speculation based on the system which existed in those days and on the basis of that I say yes, he must have know.

MR DONAN: Let's get on then.  We've established that there were no superior orders but nevertheless, we would like to go through the chain of persons who were responsible for giving orders and who would have had knowledge of torture during the time - at the time that you left Cape Town.