Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

MR LYSTER: Thank you Mr Chair. Mr de Klerk earlier on when you were asked a question about Operation Marion you described it, as far as you knew, to be a request for a VIP protection unit for Minister Buthelezi, that's how you described it. Now you would have known that, and I'm not quite sure why you didn't mention this, but you would have known that in fact it was a request for more than just a VIP protection unit for Minister Buthelezi, that it was a request for a VIP protection unit for a contra-mobilisation unit, which is another word for a propaganda unit, it was request for a defensive unit and importantly it was a request for an offensive unit. I presume you knew that?

MR DE KLERK: I can't really recall any specific details. I haven't had a look at that document since I don't know when it served before the State Security Council, I've never seen it again, I just gave you my general recollection that that was the essence, the life of Buthelezi and others were threatened and they were empowered to safeguard their lives and to safeguard their positions.

MR LYSTER: Well in fact it wasn't just a request for a VIP unit, it was a request for those other three things.

MR DE KLERK: I accept it.

MR LYSTER: And with regard to the issue of the offensive unit there was a document which was seized by the South African police some years ago, the document was taken from the SAD

<UNKNOWN>: 's Directorate of Special Tasks and the document had been sent in October 1988 by the then Chief of Staff Intelligence, Vice Admiral Putte to Minister Malan, and the extract from the document, which is in your bundle, reads as follows
"Offensive action is part of Marion's tasks. It is not out of the question that Chief of Staff, Intelligence, and the officers involved in Operation Marion, on account of being implicated in the planning may be charged with offences carrying the death penalty. The assurance is, therefore, sought for such officers to enjoy the protection of Section 103 of the Defence Act if they are charged".
You may know that Section 103 of the Defence Act is one which gives indemnity for acts committed.
Now you may also recall that in the trial of Minister Malan and others the Judge found that the people who killed the 13 people in Kwamakutha were trainees who were trained by the Defence

<UNKNOWN>: orce in the Caprivi Strip and that they were part of the so-called offensive group. He didn't convict those people because there was not sufficient or proper identification of the people at the site. But the Judge confirmed that the people who carried out the Kwamakutha killings of the 13 people were Caprivi trainees. Now in the light of this, in the light of that extract from the message from Admiral Putte to Minister Malan, how are we to understand your statement that you are satisfied that the National Party government never did anything which could be construed as an order to kill people or to commit unlawful acts?

MR DE KLERK: I never said that there were never orders to kill people in the sense. Obviously if you send people into a battle they go there to kill and to be killed. In a typical war situation the essence of what is taking place is killing is taking place. That is to be distinguished from murder and assassination and the killing under circumstances which constitutes a crime, and that is where the distinction lies between whether it is a crime or not. 
Obviously, obviously when a commander sends his troop in to do something which is a typical war-like situation everybody knows that people will be killed in all probability. And when the police send somebody in to relieve hostages they go in with authority if necessary using the minimum of violence, obviously to kill within the framework of the law under circumstances which would not constitute a crime.
What I am saying it was not the policy to allow murder, assassination, the ordering the death of people or saying it would be acceptable under any circumstances where it will constitute a crime. That is, I think, a very important distinction to make. 
As far as Marion is concerned, I haven't made a detailed study of the court case, but to the best of my knowledge there was an effort to also say that because of the reasons and the wordings used and the nature of the training that establishes a sufficient causal connection to say that those who trained them and that those who instructed the training by implication on the basis of dolus eventualis could be found guilty because they should have foreseen that having trained such people in such skills they would kill people. And I think there was a decision on that that there wasn't sufficient causal connection. But I am not sure, I haven't read the judgment itself, that was an impression I picked up from the papers.
I really think on the Marion case, if the Commission is interested and not prepared to accept the Court's decision, that you should get the role players and discuss it with them. 
Can I make a last comment. The people who protected me when I was President, and the people who protect President Mandela today, are trained very comprehensively. In this modern world of ours where assassination and that sort of thing is the order of the day VIP protection doesn't mean just to train somebody how to walk in front of somebody else and what to look for. People who protect VIP's across this world are trained also to go on the offensive. It's an inherent part of the training of all VIP protectors, because defence often must result in offence, to prevent something.

MR LYSTER: Mr de Klerk, I don't want to debate this case now, but the people who took part in the Kwamakutha killing were not members of the VIP unit they were members of the offensive unit and they were not involved in a war situation as you earlier described, they attacked a house and they killed 13 people most of whom were women and children.

MR DE KLERK: And therefore they were guilty of a heinous crime. I am not defending them. I would like to remind you, this is the type of murder where I would not like to have seen if I had my way that similar circumstances should qualify for amnesty and I explained why the law has been changed under pressure from the ANC so that amnesty is now available, and however difficult it is, it was difficult for me to sign some releases when I was President. It will be difficult for you but the law says that those people are entitled and you will have to grant them that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Glenda.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: It's been a long day Mr de Klerk.

MR DE KLERK: I am used to long days.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Yes. Tough questions, but there are tough questions that are asked of us as well by victims, people who are mothers, people who are wives, innocent children and they ask us very tough questions. I would like to ask you one or two of the questions that they asked us.

<UNKNOWN>: irst with regard to activities in other countries, you admit that the South African government provided military and other assistance to so-called anti-marxist organisations in the neighbouring states, in particular to UNITA and to RENAMO. We have heard also of the State Security Council minute which states that,
"The pot of internal conflict in Zimbabwe must be kept on the boil. South Africa's role in fomenting civil war in its neighbouring states caused large-scale and prolonged bloodletting and devastation in the region".
My question is, what responsibility do you feel you should take for the devastation and suffering still being experienced as a result of this? What do you suggest South Africa should now do in respect of assisting its neighbours to re-build?