Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-15

LOYANDA MOLESHE: Yes, Gqozo knew about that because the commissioner at the time, Nqoya, was with him, was with Brig Gqozo.  He left the hall, he went to the head of State, Brig Gqozo and he was also found there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: How do you know that the commissioner told Brig Gqozo that  officers were held hostage at Bisho police college?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: There was no way that he couldn't have told him because the officers from his office were not in the office at the time, they were in the hall and he was together with Brig Gqozo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is evidence given here that the commissioner called the meeting and left the meeting to have a meeting with Brig Gqozo, is that not the correct evidence?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: As I've already said, before when the meeting started I was not there.  When I arrived the commissioner was not there but what I know is that the commissioner was found at Bisho in the minister's residence.  That is why I'm saying that Gqozo knew that the officers were there because the commissioner was found there with Gqozo, but when I got to the hall he was not there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Therefore, we can safely say that the commissioner did not know that the officers were held hostage, because he left before the officers were held hostage, is that correct?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: I wouldn't say that.  I wouldn't dispute that, I wouldn't agree with that because I've already said that when I arrived the commissioner was not there.  I don't know when he left or how he left.  When I arrived there, he was not there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: How did you hope to unseat Brig Gqozo?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: What happened on that day when we kept the officers inside the hall, the soldiers arrived during the night.  They arrived at the hall and there was conflict, or disagreement about the police and the soldiers, they came as if they were there to help the police, but we as the police realised that these people still wanted Brig Gqozo.  They left and then we sat there until the night when Gqozo said he was resigning.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Mr Moleshe, I put it to you that you kidnapped Mr Sawuti and you held him hostage at Bisho police college and that had nothing to do with unseating Brig Gqozo.

LOYANDA MOLESHE: I would dispute that because kidnapping him or taking him was part of all this because we wanted to remove Brig Gqozo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Was there a plan in the meeting that Brig Gqozo would be told to step down and to achieve that his officers, his police officers, are being held hostage?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: When I arrived there, the meeting was continuing so I decided to join the meeting, I decided to be part of what was happening.  When the meeting started I wasn't there so I don't know what happened before I arrived.  When I arrived these freedom songs were being sung and then I went in, I listened and I also joined in the singing of those songs until the time came when I was supposed to go and fetch Capt Sawuti.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So there was not stage that you know of where the meeting agreed that we are holding these people as hostage and Brig Gqozo must be told to step down because we are holding police officers as hostage?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: There was no meeting that I was part of that I heard that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But now how did you hope to achieve your objective of unseating Brig Gqozo if he is not told that we are holding some people here hostage therefore step down so that we can release them?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: Surely the pressure that we had because we took all the officers from Whittlesea and around, we were trying to send him a message, we were pressurising him, so he could see that he had no police, so we were dependent on him, but by doing that we knew that he was being helped by the police so the if the officers were not there something would happen.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But now, he wouldn't have known that the officers attended the meeting voluntarily or they were kidnapped to go to the meeting, not so?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: Can you please repeat the question?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Brig Gqozo wouldn't have known that he has got no officers, the officers are kidnapped, no would he know that the officers had gone to the meeting voluntarily, is it not so, because it was not communicated to him.

LOYANDA MOLESHE: The way this happened, it happened next to his offices.  The officers were taken at the parliament head office with casspirs so it was obvious because the police were around Bisho, even if he was not told it, but he would have suspected, or he would have known that something was happening.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And you people who attended the meeting at that stage, you did not know where he was and you did not communicate with him, that is with Brig Gqozo, not so?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: We tried to meet with him, soldiers telling us that he was here or there, but we couldn't exactly find him where he was.  Then at night we heard that he had resigned, so the police celebrated.  We also heard that over the radio that Brig Gqozo had resigned, in the morning.  We heard that Gqozo wanted to go and address the police.  We then said that if he had resigned he must go to the stadium and address the people and tell them that he had resigned and that didn't happen.

MR NOMPOZOLO: That is exactly my point.  My point is this, because you did not know the whereabouts of Brig Gqozo during the day, you wouldn't know that Brig Gqozo observed all what happened and as a result he got the message.  Do you understand my point.

LOYANDA MOLESHE: What time?

MR NOMPOZOLO: During the day, before he resigned, you wouldn't know when the officers were taken out of the parliament offices and from all their offices, you did not know that he is observing that or not.

LOYANDA MOLESHE: But the way it happened according to my perception, he was supposed to observe that or to see that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now were all the officers taken to Bisho as hostage?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: The officers that were there at Bisho, they were all taken, those that were found there.  Those that were not taken, they were not in the office, but everybody that was in the office, they were taken to the Caspir and they were taken to the college and those that were at the head office, they were also taken to the college.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, the officers, those who are instructing me are saying that there at the police college, those who were at the police college, taken hostage there, they are saying all what happened there, they were being humiliated, asked about their CV's, asked about their promotions.  Do you have any knowledge about that?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: It might be possible that that happened, but I can't say for sure that it happened or it was the only thing that happened maybe it was one of the things that were happening.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Those who are instructing me are saying there was nothing which was said to them about their support or their being under Brig Gqozo.

LOYANDA MOLESHE: Yes, that did happen when the commissioner was there because it was said that that is why their cases are not going forward because people like Gqozo were on their side, the cases about - the cases that were investigated by the department.  So that clearly showed us that they were close to Brig Gqozo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When was that said?

LOYANDA MOLESHE: When Commissioner Nqoya was present during the night.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But when Commissioner Nqoya arrived there already Brig Gqozo had resigned.

LOYANDA MOLESHE: I wouldn't be sure about whether he had resigned or not because as I've already said, this issue about him being resigned was heard over the radio by those who were listening to the radio.  Whether the commissioner was present at the time, I wouldn't be sure.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Did you as people who were there, in particular yourself, have any knowledge of the association of Mr Sawuti and Brig Gqozo?