Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, what happened was that I was supposed to compile a list of my requirements which totalled an amount of R6 000 and then the attorneys contacted me later that afternoon and told me to come to their offices the following morning and that they had received R12 000.  I wouldn't say that it was an instruction but it was suggested to me that I should go on holiday with the rest of the money, and I did so.

MS COLERIDGE: And then Mr Slang van Zyl used your services, how did the two of you make that connection?  Did he know that you belonged to the CCB?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I think I said so to Mr van Zyl, but our original contact was at the Johannesburg SAP Rugby Club where I had been a member many years previously.  We ran into each other there.  His wife at that stage, introduced us to each other because I knew her when she was a State Prosecutor and I was a Detective.  The two of them later got married.  She introduced us and then upon various occasions I telephoned Mr van Zyl and we met in a restaurant eventually and I told him that there could be possible ways in which we could compliment each other.  Among others, I told him that much of the CCB's information was updated.  He agreed with me.  And we also discussed in general.

MS COLERIDGE: So he was never aware of the fact that you worked for the CCB?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I think I put it to him.

MS COLERIDGE: At which stage was this?

FERDINAND BARNARD: When we had that meeting in the restaurant.

MS COLERIDGE: And then just your instruction with regards to the Lubowski incident, what was your instruction basically, was it just to monitor?

FERDINAND BARNARD: From Mr van Zyl?

MS COLERIDGE: Correct.

FERDINAND BARNARD: The internal story with regard to Adv Lubowski was only monitoring.  As I've testified, at a certain stage I went and felt Mr Lubowski's door myself, because I had worked on him in South West Africa and I was made aware that there was a project which was aimed at killing him and I thought that I should do so while I was busy.  I saw him going out to the parking lot later that night, I thought that he would make a good opportunity target, but I never had such an instruction.  That is what I reported to Mr van Zyl.  He didn't want me to proceed with it.

MS COLERIDGE: Thank you Chairperson, I've no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Lax do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR LAX: Thanks, Chairperson.
	Mr Barnard, in answer to questions from both Mr Wessels and Mr Bizos, you indicated that apart from the monies from the sale of your house, no other monies of your own were used in any representation of you in any of the legal fora that you've been involved in, is that correct?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, apart from the legal counsel who assisted me in my criminal trial.  All other investigations, the Harms Commission, the Goldstone Commission, the Webster Post-mortem Inquest, they all paid for it.

MR LAX: I just wanted to be clear where the money for the sale of your house actually went to, which defence was that?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, it was a robbery charge, a diamond robbery in Klerksdorp.  I paid for it privately.  It had nothing to do with the Defence Force or anything else, and I paid it to that attorney's firm who acted on my behalf in that case.

MR LAX: Now what was your basic at DCC?  You told us that you got an increase, but what was your basic?

FERDINAND BARNARD: It's difficult to recall but I would say it was approximately R3 500 as a starting salary and then with operational costs.

MR LAX: Okay.  Now I want to take you back to your amnesty application form and in particular page 208, your answer to paragraph 11(b).  The question is with regard to who gave you orders, etcetera, etcetera, and in 11(a) you say
"Execution of order and with the approval of the Security Forces involved"
and then with regard to the particulars of such, you say:
"Mr Abram Slang van Zyl"

FERDINAND BARNARD: That's correct, yes.

MR LAX: Why didn't you mention anyone higher than Mr van Zyl, at that stage?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sir, I also testified and I was under the impression that Mr van Zyl applied me and that he told that he did not inform anybody else about my involvement in this incident.  If I was disinformed concerning this, I do not know.  If it was truly the case, I do not know, but I was under the impression that Mr van Zyl never told anyone else about my involvement.

MR LAX: And then finally, with regard to the matter of Boipatong itself, you indicated that some days before that you had knowledge that certain weapons were delivered.  You said you got this information at the Three Sisters Restaurant.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct, from the Vlakplaas members, but I cannot say that it was used for Boipatong, because I do not know.  What I'm saying is that I made an inference, because there were Zulus involved in the Boipatong and I read about this later in the media, that these weapons had to be delivered for Zulus.  I made the inference that it could have possibly played a role.  If it was true, I do not know, I've got no facts to substantiate it.

MR LAX: Is it correct that what you were told was that the weapons were just being delivered to some Zulus, you didn't know exactly which ones, which ...(intervention)

FERDINAND BARNARD: To a Zulu hostel in Tokoza.

MR LAX: in Tokoza?

FERDINAND BARNARD: To Tokoza, in the East.

MR LAX: Thank you, no further questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions you'd like to put?

MR SIBANYONI: Only one Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Barnard, if a person will say to you you are involving people higher than Slang van Zyl, for example Joe Verster, because of the fact that you are bitter, they didn't help you, what would be your comment?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sorry, I didn't understand your question now Sir.

MR SIBANYONI: If a person may allege that you are involving people like Joe Verster of having given you instructions, for the reason that after your arrest now they are not helping you, what would be your response to that?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, Sir, that is far from the truth.  If I wanted to incriminate Joe Verster, I could have done it a day after my arrest, when I was arrested.  I was also offered 204 indemnity by the Attorney-General and they say: "If you tell us where your instructions came from, if you play with us, if you make a full disclosure, we will give you indemnity with the Attorney and the investigative team's office.  I did not want to give my co-operation, I refused to incriminate anybody else, and since then the Attorney-General's staff and the Attorney-General, Mr Pretorius himself, came to visit me for seventeen times in prison and up until when I started telling the truth here, I did not make any statements.  Apart from the fact that I was suffering in C-Max, apart from the fact that I was suffering under the circumstances, I was detained under circumstances, I thought if I make a statement here I will be out of C-Max in a normal jail where I can practise, exercise and play pool and play darts like other people do in jails, and I stuck with what I believed in and I decided not to do it until I came here and explained about Mrs Omar who came to me and I started telling the truth.  This what happened with her made me tell the truth here.  It's not about incriminating Joe Verster, I said at various opportunities I do not want anybody else to end up in jail and I realised that the evidence that I'm giving here cannot be given in a criminal case.  If I wanted to incriminate Joe Verster, I could have worsened it, I could have made more allegations, I could have made a this thick statement that would have shocked the Attorney-General.  I do not have to go through all of it again, it's not about that.