Special Hearings — Trojan Horse Hearings — 1997-05-21

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: Correct yes.

UNKNOWN: How did you arrest them.

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: The point to which they were running was a house with a stoep or patio and I arrested them on the stoep there.  The weren't able to escape from the verandah there.

UNKNOWN: Did you handcuff any one of them?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: I can't remember whether I handcuffed any of them, there were six of them.  I can't remember whether I handcuffed them.

UNKNOWN: Amazing, I'm just trying to work out how you managed to keep six people together.  Didn't they want to try to run away, escape.  Was there any scuffle between you?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: No there was no scuffle, if you had seen the actual scene you would agree with me that I was able to control and arrest the six people. As you enter No 47 in St Simon's Road there's a house and it had a verandah and you have to enter in the front, an enclosed verandah.

UNKNOWN: And you didn't feel threatened then?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: No I didn't feel threatened at that stag

UNKNOWN: What was the difference, here the same people were in the crowd who were threatening you on the crate.  You perused these people and then you don't feel threatened anymore.  What was the difference?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: At that stage my life was no longer being threatened because I apprehended the six people there on the verandah and I had my shotgun with me and also my 9mm as well as my cuffs.

UNKNOWN: But there are six, you are one person?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: If I'm in the doorway or the entrance to the verandah, they wouldn't be able to squeeze past me, I was blocking the way and actually causing them not to be able to escape.

UNKNOWN: So did you have your gun pointed to stop them with your gun, just give us an idea of the scene, how did you keep those six people there?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: Yes I had pointed my shotgun at them.

UNKNOWN: Are you aware that your name wasn't mentioned in previous statements that you were part of the operation? Are you aware of that?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: Yes I heard during this hearing that my name hadn't been mentioned.  I don't know why.  Maybe it happened so long ago that Lt Vermeulen wasn't able to record that.

UNKNOWN: But I mean you are saying you don't know for what reason it was left out.  Does it seem difficult for you to understand that your name wasn't included there?

ADV VAN ZYL: Chairperson may I just interrupt here.  His name wasn't mentioned by Vermeulen in his statement but in the log of happenings of that day, his name is clearly mentioned as part of the documents that were given to us under points 36 and 1656 of this Trojan Horse Operations describe and it says here, Sgt Van Niekerk and he fired four No 1 shotgun rounds.

UNKNOWN: Yes Madam Chair, I'm aware of that, the advocate is anticipating my questions.

ADV VAN ZYL: No with respect I'm not anticipating, I'm just stating a fact.

UNKNOWN: In the statement, because the statements are very important for the proceeding, I just need to find out from you whether you are aware that your name was left out even though your name was mentioned in the log of that day. Do you find that difficult to understand?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: When Lt Vermeulen testified this morning I realised that my name had been left out because he clearly said that he wanted to add my name, perhaps he just forgot after a period of twelve years.

UNKNOWN: You didn't try to indicate to him that your name has been left out?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: Are you talking about this morning Commission?

ADV VAN ZYL: Chairperson if I may interrupt.  That question pre-supposes that this witness was present when Vermeulen made his statement, and that was in fact not the case.  You will remember that Vermeulen was called on Monday and these witness only saw us yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to pursue that line Ms Wildschut?

UNKNOWN: No I have a few more questions to ask. 
 Earlier on we talked a little bit about your family and so on and it seemed to me that one of your children was more or less the same age as one of the children that died, is that so?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: I can't say exactly how old the children were, the children who died.

UNKNOWN: During the day we mentioned that ...(intervention)

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: Yes I heard the ages.

UNKNOWN: Did you discuss your work with your family at all, did you talk to them about what was happening on the day and so on?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: No my wife always told me, please never discuss your job with me and I said no I will not discuss my work with you and I never did discuss my job with her. It's just one of those things, I think it's in my nature never to discuss my work with my wife.

UNKNOWN: This is in a sense a community that you on that day of the operation, you entered, is a community that in a sense you come from too, you belong to the same community isn't it?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: Please repeat the question.

UNKNOWN: I'm saying that in a sense the people who were the victims of this particular event, is the same community that you come from, isn't it?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: That's correct Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Did it disturb you a little bit at all, that some people had died on that day?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: That's correct, it did upset me. I experienced a lot of trauma afterwards and I can mention various facts in this regard, things which contributed to my divorce and so on.

UNKNOWN: So in a sense you're also bearing some scars of this event as well?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: You are now retired from the police, isn't it?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Is it an age retirement or what type of retirement is it?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: It is partly as a result of this trauma.  I haven't yet reached the required age for retirement.

UNKNOWN: So was it a medical boarding?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: That's correct, yes.

UNKNOWN: Have you received any kind of treatment, I mean you don't have to go into the details but have you received any treatment for......(intervention)

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: Yes I receive treatment and I was also admitted at one point.

UNKNOWN: Thank you I don't have any more questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Gobodo-Madikizela.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Chairperson, Mr van Niekerk, the investigator of this case, did he come from your unit or did he come from another unit?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: Are you talking about the investigator who took the statements or the commanding officer, please just specify, I don't know exactly what you mean.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I think that after an incident such as the one that you're talking about today, you have an investigator into the incident. Now I'm asking if he came from your unit or if he came from another unit.  In other words if you worked with him or if he came from a different unit than yours?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson may I ask, is this now the person who took the statement from me at a later stage and then continued with a further investigation of the case, are you talking about the investigating officer in this matter?

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Yes.

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: Yes he was from a different unit.  I think he was from the railway police.  Yes I think it's Sgt Steyn.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Well what sort of questions did he ask, I don't want you to go into details but I just want you to tell me, did he ask you questions about the day and about the kinds of ammunition that you used.  Did he ask you those kinds of general questions?

FRANK ALBERT VAN NIEKERK: This thing happened such a long time ago.  It's difficult for me to remember what he actually asked but I know that he at some stage retook the statements from us.