Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-08

MR DLAMINI: arrested.  He went to the police station to give his statement.  As he was sick, I requested Schoeman to help me because my child was not sick and he was in hospital in Bloemfontein.  After giving Emma Schoeman the statement she said, "It's not right what the policemen did to your son.  We aren't just going to leave this matter."  And I said to her, "I want to go to Jan Hofmeyer Hospital to get the docket number."  And they gave us the docket number that I've indicated.  Mrs Schoeman said, "No, we will further this case."  After a few months I went to Emma Schoeman.  I said, "When am I going to get information?" and she said to me, "I'm waiting for your son to get healed."  And I said to her, "That's fine."  And when my boy was now well, I went to her and she said to me, "Yes, woman, you are very rich."  And I said to her, "Listen, I don't have money.  I went to Johannesburg.  I went to see the people at ... (inaudible) ... House to assist me with money and I signed.  They are going to help me with the money.  I will have to repay and you're telling me today that I will not afford an advocate."  And she said to me, "Right", and that was the last word.  I went to Johannesburg to get myself an advocate.  I started first at ... (inaudible) ... House.  They gave me a letter.  I have it with me here.  This letter was permitting me -they were confirming that Priscilla Janna, if she was prepared to take the case ... (inaudible) ... House will pay the account because this child was injured by the State.  That's where - when I went back to Priscilla Janna after quite a long time, she said to me the case would never be listened to because six months elapsed  and the file was closed.  And I said to her, "Can you please make copies and give me copies of those papers.  I could like to go somewhere."  And nobody could help me because this child is now at home doing nothing.  He's getting a disability grant.  And every time I have to get this disability grant I struggle.  They stopped it last year in October and I was told that he will never ever get anything.  I'm in and out of the offices to get it organised because he will never get a work any more.  He is mentally disturbed.  You know, if you are mentally disturbed you can't do any kind of work because you need to use your brain.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you, Alina.  Dr Magwaza referred earlier on to the courage that the witnesses are demonstrating and I think you are reinforcing that observation.  I just want to ask a few questions of clarification.  In your statement you mentioned Nosi's house.  Who is Nosi?

WITNESS:   What's Nosi, Sir.  Is it the name of a person or - it's Notsi, Sir.  That's where the policemen picked Pule.

MR DLAMINI: Okay, that's the house where Pule's friend was staying.

WITNESS:   Yes, it's at 3073, that's the house number.  The house belongs to Mr Notsi.  That's where they picked my boy.

MR DLAMINI: Okay.  And you also mentioned that the costs - the medical costs for Bloemfontein amounted to R6 000,00.  And who paid that?

WITNESS:   That's correct.  The doctor said to me, "We have examined your son and we've spent the money amounting to R6 000,00," and I can believe that because we visited him every week and every time we'd be told that he is at Pilinomi for his treatment.   /We would

MR DLAMINI: We would have to wait for him.  And every time he would come to Oranje and I was then given an explanation that the money is running up to R6 000,00 and he cannot even speak and there is nothing further they can do.  They said it would be much better if we take the child to Welkom.

MR DLAMINI: Who paid that amount of money?

WITNESS:   I didn't pay that out of my pocket but I used to pay for transportation because I'm the mother and I wanted to see the welfare of my child and I went to Bloem every time.  The government told me not to pay any money because it was a government hospital.  They said I should just look to my transport fees.  We were going every week because he was very sick.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, we have noted your request to be assisted with these medical bills.  We'll only refer it to the State President who had the powers to decide whether anything can be done and I'm sure, as we all know him as a sympathetic man, something will happen but it's going to take long before we hear from him because all that report will only go to him when we have finalised the work of the Commission.  And also we have noted your request about the education of Pule's children and again it's the kind of request that can only be addressed by the State President and probably in consultation with his cabinet.  We'll refer it to him and again, as I said, that you'll only hear the outcome of that request after 18 months to two years.  And other clarifying questions.  You said that the civil case could not proceed because the six months' period had lapsed?

WITNESS:  That's correct.  That's what I was told. We are sorry to hear about that and especially when you had lawyers, thinking that they were looking after the matter.  Can I check on the criminal case, that is the court case now to find people guilty who had - was there any court case?   ---   There was no court case because I was so scared and I was disturbed.  I had this burden in my heart.  Every time I looked at my child I would see a bag lying there and that's where I took an initiative to go to investigate as to the date of the court case and they said, "No, we will wait for the recovery of the boy."  I went to Jan Hofmeyer and some white people showed me a docket and they said when your child is healed the case will be listened to.  It's true, sometimes there were times when he was feeling very well and we said we are prepared to appear before the court of law because we know the people who did this to him.  We were eye-witnesses.  But still nothing came out of this.

MR DLAMINI: The docket, is that the one which is MR534/6/87?  Does it make sense?

WITNESS:   Wait a minute, I'll have to check it.  That's correct.  It's MR534/6/8/87.  That's the correct number.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you, I just wanted to confirm that.  That information is already with our investigating unit to make a follow-up but I think they will only make a follow-up on the basis of the criminal case.  Amongst the perpetrators you mentioned Hugo.  Is that Captain Hugo who has been mentioned more than three times this morning?

WITNESS:   That is the same Hugo that has been mentioned many a times.  And this black man known as Para.  Para was present when my child was taken.  John  Delinga brought him back.  I don't know his involvement anyway, and this other one called Molayi.  Some of then I know.  I see them around the town here.  I meet them in town but they would never look me into the eyes.

MR DLAMINI: That was going to be my next question.  I believe John Delinga has since died, is that right?

WITNESS:   Yes, he dies.

MR DLAMINI: Captain Hugo - do you know his whereabouts?

WITNESS:   After the elections I only heard because I have this other child who's an MK member.  As they were preparing to go to the army rumour had it that Hugo moved away because now the MK were coming back.  I don't know where did he go to but it's not a problem.  The government should know where Hugo is because the present government is still having people who served in the previous government.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I agree with you that it shouldn't be a problem to trace somebody who was or is employed by the State.  And Para - have you seen him recently?  Where is he now?

WITNESS:   He is working at the police station - in a new police station.  That's where he's working.

MR DLAMINI: What is the name of the new police station?

WITNESS:  We don't know the name.  We just call it a new police station.  It's very close to the churches.  It doesn't have a name.  We have two police stations, the old one and the new one.