Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that that is why they were guarding.  How is it that the people who ran into the house, you don't know what happened to them?

UNKNOWN: I saw them getting into the house that I am referring to and they showed us from the inside.  They went through the door that I've already referred to before.

CHAIRPERSON: ... once and for all please listen carefully.  Are these four rooms next to each other in a straight line?

UNKNOWN: A four-roomed house, there are two rooms at the front and two rooms at the back but within the same
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house or within the same structure of the house.

CHAIRPERSON: The firing that you were witnessing came from the front room.

UNKNOWN: I could not see which part of the house they were, whether they were at the front portion or the back portion, but there were bullets coming through from inside the house.

CHAIRPERSON: ... they must have been in one of the front rooms, is that right?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is true, it came out of one of the front rooms.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is the room into which you fired.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I was shooting through the room that was opposite me.  The other room, I was shooting through the two rooms, that is the one which was opposite me as well as the other one that was next to the door.

CHAIRPERSON: You were firing at two rooms, is that it?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what happened to these people who fled?

UNKNOWN: I don't know.  I left the place without having seen them.

CHAIRPERSON: And your friends who were guarding the place didn't even see them.

UNKNOWN: Yes, they didn't see them.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: How do you know this house had four rooms?

UNKNOWN: The structure itself indicated to me that it was a four-roomed house.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: How do you know if you never got into this house, how did you know that it was plastered from the inside?
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UNKNOWN: /...
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UNKNOWN: No, when I said the house was plastered, I was referring to the outside of the house.  I never referred to the inside of the house.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: My note said from the inside, but maybe you are right.  I am not so sure.  I could be wrong.  But how can the outside appearance of a house indicate to you that the house must be having four rooms if you never entered into that house?

UNKNOWN: As I have explained, the structures of four-roomed houses are basically the same.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ... ordinary municipal houses that we see in black townships.

UNKNOWN: Yes, it was built like the municipal houses in the townships.  Each structure resembled that one of the four-roomed houses in the residential areas of the townships.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Houses in the township can never give anybody doubt as to what the walls are made of, how they are structured.  They can never give anybody the impression that the wall might be corrugated iron inside and plastered from inside.

UNKNOWN: They do plaster the houses even in the rural areas and it could be built to resemble a house in the location or in townships.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: This was a house built in the rural areas.

UNKNOWN: Yes, it was built in the rural areas.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Which was made of corrugated iron sheets.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is true.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And the wall is made of bricks and then plastered from the outside, as you say.

UNKNOWN: Yes, the walls were plastered from the
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outside.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And when you look at this house ... probably a rectangular structure.

UNKNOWN: Yes, it had four corners.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: How does that immediately tell you that this house must be having four rooms unless you have been inside.

UNKNOWN: I could see the size that it was the size of a four-roomed house.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ... no further division inside the house.  There could have been only two rooms or three rooms.

UNKNOWN: As I have already explained, I told myself it is a four-roomed house, because the structure resembled that of the houses I built in the townships.  I don't know whether it was divided or not ... (CHANGE OVER TO TAPE 3A) ... To me that is a four-roomed house.  I saw only one door, the one that I've referred to before.  The one that was next to the window.

CHAIRPERSON: How many doors does a house like this have?

UNKNOWN: They have two doors usually.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible)

UNKNOWN: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: ... door was not guarded by your friends.

UNKNOWN: No, they were not at the back of the house.

JUDGE WILSON: The fact that the curtains were still drawn early in the morning would indicate that that room was used as a bedroom wouldn't it?

UNKNOWN: I have no idea as to whether it was the bedroom or the kitchen because the curtains were still drawn.

JUDGE WILSON: (Inaudible)

UNKNOWN: I think it differs from house to house.  It
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depends what they want to do in that particular house.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Your real intention of launching the attack on the occupants of the house at Nqobo's homestead was to kill in particular both Skwayi Nqobo and Mqupeni Zulu, is it not so?

UNKNOWN: Yes, it is true, I wanted Skwayi and Mqupeni Zulu because they had shot a lot of comrades and they had launched a number of attacks upon us.  But it was not my intention to kill innocent victims.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ...  to cease your shooting at the time when you did, because at that stage you didn't know whether Mqupeni or Skwayi had been killed?

UNKNOWN: As I have said before, I only stopped when the shooting from the inside of the house ceased.  That's only then that I stopped.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you take any steps to gain access to the house to make sure that your effort at launching such a ferocious attack had yielded good results?

UNKNOWN: No, I never made an attempt to get into the house because I was not sure whether they were injured or they had died.  So I was scared to get inside the house because they might have been drawing me into the house by ceasing to fire then they would shoot me when I got into the house.

ADV DE JAGER: And while you and your friends were walking away no further shots were fired at you.

UNKNOWN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You are once again afforded an opportunity to put questions arising out of what has been put to him by members of the Committee, but before you do that.  Ms Thabethe, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness at this
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stage?

MS THABETHE: Maybe just one question.  When did you decide to leave the house?

UNKNOWN: After the shooting had ceased from the inside then I stopped shooting also, then I decided to leave.

MR KUBONI: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  You can go down.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you proposing to call any further witnesses?

MR KUBONI: If I may consult with the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You may do so now.

MR KUBONI: I just want to confer with the mother.
I do not have any further witnesses.

ADV DE JAGER: You were 12 people attacking the house - sorry, according to your evidence six.

UNKNOWN: Yes, we were six.

ADV DE JAGER: (Inaudible)

UNKNOWN: No.

MR KUBONI: I am not sure whether I can get  hold of some of the people who were there, Mqupeni Zulu and Skwayi Nqobo, because I am told that some of them are passed away.  I am not sure about the timetable of the Committee ...

CHAIRPERSON: We would like to dispose of this matter today if we can.   Did they give evidence at the trial?