Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-02

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is him sir.

MR STANDER: The other person, Mr Oliphant, is he also in the hall today?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, he is present, I saw him in the morning.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, can I ask that Mr Oliphant rises?  Is that Mr Oliphant?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is him sir.

MR STANDER: Now, tell me, can you please elaborate on the torturing that happened in that incident on these two victims.  What happened to them when they were in your presence?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: If I may elaborate, the two of them including some of them whom I mentioned, were regarded as senior people whom we - it was alleged that they should be at that incident.  Because of that we were instructed to assault them more than the others. We assaulted others as I explained.  After they were tired they were taken to the Special Investigation Unit, where we continued with the assault.

MR STANDER: Was it only sjamboks that was used in the assault or were there also cricket bats involved?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We used many things, we were using sjamboks, we used batons and with planks.  You would use anything which you may find.	So there were many things which we used to torture or assault them.

MR STANDER: Were they assaulted only on their body or was there any other parts of their bodies involved in this assault, in other words, were they hit on the head also?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We were hitting them against the wall with their heads.  We would hit them on the head, we would kick them, we would choke them.  We would suffocate them with a tube.

MR STANDER: Now please elaborate on this suffocating process, what did you do?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We would handcuff them at the back behind the chair, then we will take a card or a tube, then we put them on the face, then we would pull it up to the time when we think that he may lose his breath, then we would stop.	Then after he has inhaled, and after we have questioned him again, you would go to the next one, that is Oupa and the others, that is how we did that.

MR STANDER: Am I right if I say that they were firstly tortured in a group and afterwards the leader was taken away?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is true.

MR STANDER: Can you still remember where Oupa Makhubelo was taken to?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: They were taken to Colonel Du Plooy and others who were members of the Special Investigative Unit.  Together with others like Erasmus.  They were taken to the rooms which were separate.	What happened in those rooms, we were not able to see because we were busy torturing others, so I don't know how they were tortured in those rooms.

MR STANDER: And Shadrack Oliphant, was he also part of the leader group that was taken away?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, that is true.

MR STANDER: What made you people stop this torturing?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was the time to knock off, we started in the morning.

MR STANDER: At what time?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We started around past ten.

MR STANDER: And you only stopped at knock off time, I take it that it was about four o'clock in the afternoon?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We stopped when they were supposed to be taken to various police stations, others were taken to Glen, others were taken to Brandfort.  We spread them in terms of the police stations, it is then that we stopped.

MR STANDER: At what time was that, that they were taken to other police stations approximately only?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It would be between four o'clock and five o'clock.  It was the time to knock off.

MR STANDER: Did you people do anything towards them in regards to the injuries they sustained due to this torturing, any medical, supplied medical services?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, we didn't give them any medicine or health care, we would keep them at the police station and after some time, we would go and fetch them.
	Or say for example, we would go and fetch Oupa, Shadrack and others, those who were regarded as leaders, then we would continue with the torture and then find out as whether they are not as yet ready to confess about other activities which they knew, then if they were swollen or they were injured, we would hide them so that the Doctor could not see them or other officials, or even their family members.

MR STANDER: For how long a time did you people hide them, can you still remember?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It took a long time, I don't remember well.  It might be one or two months, but it was a long time.

MR STANDER: And the whole time, there was no medical services rendered to them?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: As from the time of torture, I haven't seen, I don't remember as whether we took them to the hospital.  What I know is that we would go and fetch them when we suspect that they know certain information, because we are using other comrades to take information from, then we would go and fetch them again on a regular basis to torture and then question them to verify the information we had.

MR STANDER: I believe that Joel Makhubelo had to undergo an operation on his right ear and according to him, he sustains that that was due to this torturing.  Will you deny that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I would not deny that, because these people were bleeding from their ears, noses.  They were injured, others were severely injured.	Because of the severity of the torture, I was part in that, I know how we assaulted them.  I would hit them with the butt of a gun.

MR STANDER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have got no further questions.

MR STANDER: .

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, Visser on record.  Perhaps I can continue with the questions that I have for the witness, until you wish to adjourn.  It is now twenty to, unless you wish to take the adjournment straight away?

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on for a while.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Ngo, I would like to with your assistance, attempt to place a time frame around the incidents for which you apply for amnesty and as far as you are concerned.   Is it correct that while you were at school in 1983, you became a police informant?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, I did explain that.

MR VISSER: Just answer the questions.  Is it correct that in 1985 the fact that you were an informer, became known amongst your fellow students and you were physically attacked?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is true.

MR VISSER: Is it correct that there was a criminal trial in which you were the complainant that followed that attack?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is true.

MR VISSER: Am I correct to say that you were in fact stabbed with a knife during the attack?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is true.

MR VISSER: Was one of your attackers a person by the name of White Mohapi?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is true.

MR VISSER: Is he the same person that you referred to in your application for amnesty at bundle A, page 23?  That is your page 1, who was allegedly abducted?  Is that the same person?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is the person sir.

MR VISSER: Well, I may as well put it to you now, is it not correct that White Mohapi was - let me ask you this, how many accused persons were there in this complaint of yours about an assault that went to court?  How many accused persons were there in that case?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: If I remember well, there were four.

MR VISSER: White Mohapi was one of them?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is true.

MR VISSER: And you gave evidence as the complainant?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is true.

MR VISSER: And what happened to the four accused or were they all acquitted?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, sir.

MR VISSER: What happened to them?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: They were discharged.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Was it because the court didn't believe you?  You don't have to answer that.  Can I put it to you  ...

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, the question must be answered.