Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Peens took me from my room at the hostel.  He talked to me at the offices of the Murder and Robbery.
	He asked by about the things that were allegedly done by Getisi and his gangs.  He promised that he will buy me a house, I should co-operate with him so that they should get Getisi.  So I was talking to Peens and then thereafter I heard noise and that was the police, other police with Getisi.  They were coming in pushing Getisi.

MS TANZER: Getisi means Victor Keswa, that is?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MS TANZER: Now Mr Nosenga actually has made a statement in terms of which statement he states that there was a relationship between Victor Keswa and certain members of the police.
	In fact he names a policemen with the surname of Peens, Shaka and Rooikop, but he specifically mentions in his statement that on the day of the attack he saw Peens coming to the hostels accompanied by his colleague Shaka.  He even says that Peens came to the hostel in his own motor vehicle which he describes as a white Opel Monza.
	He saw Peens hand money over to Mr Keswa.  He doesn't know how much money was handed over but he says that later in that day Victor Keswa confirmed to him that he had received money from the said Peens.  He even went on further to state that he often saw Peens meeting with Keswa and he was sure that he was getting some money from Peens.  What are your comments in this regard?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: What Nosenga is saying is, he is lying.  I don't think Nosenga could actually say anything to Getisi.  The way I knew Getisi he would not talk to a person like Nosenga.
	What I can say about Nosenga, he doesn't know Peens.  Even if we can show him Peens' photographs, he cannot point.  What's he's saying is pure lies.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is it that he cannot identify from a photograph?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I'm saying that Nosenga cannot point Peens because when I started knowing Nosenga he was still young.    He has never talked to Peens, he's lying.

MS TANZER: If Nosenga can give a description of Peens, Shaka and Rooikop, would you believe him?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I won't agree, I will only agree when he says he knows them from the township.

MS TANZER: Where else would he know them if not from the hostel?

CHAIRPERSON: From the township, not from the hostel, Ma'am.

MS TANZER: You have disputed that he could even describe Peens.

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I think so.  Even when I was arrested I did not see Matanzima, I only learnt when I was in his office that he is Peens.

MS TANZER: If Matanzima can give evidence and describe Peens, would you believe what he is saying is correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Ma'am, let me ask you this.  It is not for this witness to believe or disbelieve Mr Nosenga, that is a decision which this Committee has to make.  I think the point has been made that insofar as this witness is concerned, he does not believe that Nosenga knows Peens and ...(indistinct).  I think you have made that point.

MS TANZER: As the Chairman pleases.
	I put it to you that like you, Matanzima Nosenga was unemployed, was also hanging around the hostel all day and as such was able to give the evidence, or to make such statements and was seeing the relationship that was occurring between Mr Keswa and various police officers.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that have been before the attack on Boipatong or after?

MS TANZER: That would be after the attack - that would be before the attack on Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear the question?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Can you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Well what's being put to you is that before the attack on Boipatong, Mr Nosenga was already at KwaMadala hostel, like you he was not employed, he was hanging out in the hostel.  That is why counsel is putting to you Nosenga is in a position to describe the events that he describes in his sworn statement.  The upshot of this is that Nosenga was in the hostel even before the attack  on Boipatong, what do you say to that?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: He was not there, he was not at the hostel.

MS TANZER: You deny that Nosenga was staying in the hostel in the period prior to the Boipatong attack?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I disagree with that statement because I began to know him after the attack.

MS TANZER: Can you describe how you began to know him?  How did he come to your attention after the attack, what made him noticeable to you?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: What made me know Matanzima after the attack, that was a knew face because he was speaking Sesotho so it was unusual in the hostel.  Because I heard him speak in Sesotho I realised that he's somebody from the township.  That is when I started enquiring about him and they explained to me, they said that this is Matanzima.

MS TANZER: Well I put it to you that Matanzima Nosenga was at the hostel prior to the attack.  In fact he joined the hostel during the 1991 period.

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, that is not true.

MS TANZER: Did you know every single member of the hostel?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Even though I did not know their names but we knew each other.  The person I would not know is a person maybe who has just arrived from KwaZulu Natal but I will know him after some few days.  But now I cannot give their names but at that time we knew each other well.

MS TANZER: Could you say you could identify every single person, at least by face, at the hostel prior to the attack or even after the attack?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: All the people who were staying at KwaMadala knew each other.  The only person who would not know is a person who has just arrived because if a person comes from Nongoma, the people who come from Msinga would not know that person but we will know him a few days after, or a person who comes from Sebokeng, they will give him a room. So I will not be able to know that person that day, but after some few days I will know the person.

MS TANZER: Well I put it to you that Mr Nosenga was at the hostel and that he knew about you.

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I disagree with that.

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga - I put this to you, in his statement verifies the meeting that took place two weeks before the attack on Boipatong.  He says that he was at the meeting where there were lots of people, both men and women.
	Mr Nosenga said that at - this meeting was chaired by Themba Khosa and a member of the Murder and Robbery Squad in Flora Gardens, whom he calls Peens.  He said further, at this meeting other speeches were made, including those made by Mtwana Zulu, Darkie, someone known as Darkie who is a leader of the IFP, Gatchene who he identifies as an Induna at the hostel, and a person he calls Danie, whom he says was a member of the South African Police Force in Everton.  What are your comments?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question?

MS TANZER: I am putting to him the version of the meeting, according to Mr Nosenga, on the 10th, who addressed the meeting.

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Nosenga is lying.  When he's mentioning Themba Khosa and that meeting that he is mentioning, he is lying, he's just lying.  I can see that he is in trouble for what he did, that is why he is now trying to lie.

MS TANZER: What kind of trouble do you think he is in about what he did?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: He's worried about those years that he is doing in prison.  The reason why he is in prison is because he killed members of the IFP.  He was a member of the ANC.  He is not in prison because he killed members of the ANC, so now he is trying to use us to ask for amnesty.

MS TANZER: From where are you obtaining this information may I ask?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I know because I was with him in prison.  He used to say  that while we were in Vereeniging Prison.

MS TANZER: So you do know him from the prison?