Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-10

ADV SIGODI: Where did Peens, did Gatiza know that he was going to meet Peens?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know whether he knew.

ADV SIGODI: Did you go together with Gatiza to Peens?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was with Gatiza at the parking lot, we were just outside the hostel at the Iscor parking lot.  That is where Peens came to.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chair.  This meeting between Mr Peens and Mr Keswa, would you describe it as a private, secretive meeting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I would not know.  I do not know whether it was private or not.

MR DU PLESSIS: Sir, if you were there, you would have known how the parties would act, would they act as if there was a secret between themselves, or didn't they care who saw them meeting with each other?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know sir, I have already stated that they met outside the hostel at the Iscor parking lot.  I do not know whether it was private, secretive or not.

MR DU PLESSIS: Why did you join the meeting sir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was in the company of Gatiza.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did he invite you to the meeting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He just told me that we should go to the parking lot.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did he tell you why you were going to go to the parking lot?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, he did not tell me.  I just went along because it was my friend.

MR DU PLESSIS: And now when you met Mr Peens, the Police Official, did you recognise him as the Official who assaulted you previously?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did recognise him, he was the same Peens who had arrested me, whilst I was still staying at the township.

MR DU PLESSIS: And you stayed with that meeting, you didn't go away?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I remained there until Peens left.

CHAIRPERSON: When Peens first arrested you, were you still staying in Sebokeng?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is what I said.  He arrested me in connection with a vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is when you were detained for approximately two weeks from what you ...

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, and the next time you saw him, was at the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, during the day and in the evening of the 17th.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Nosenga, this money, was it handed over in a purse, in a bag or just from one hand to another, can you remember?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Peens removed it from his pocket and handed it over to Gatiza, but I do not know how much it was.

MR DU PLESSIS: Can you remember if you saw the denominations of the money, was it ...

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not know how much it was, I just saw that it was cash.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did you see if it was R50 bills, R100 bills, R20 bills, anything, can you remember anything about the money?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did see a R50 note.

MR DU PLESSIS: Only one?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was rolled up in a bundle, so I don't know how much it was, or how many R50 notes there were.

MR DU PLESSIS: So then there were more than one R50 note, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I don't know, I am not in a position to know, because it was rolled up so I cannot say whether there was just one R50 note or more than one.  He just handed the money over in that fashion.

MR DU PLESSIS: It is still your submission or evidence that at the meeting present was yourself, Mr Peens and Mr Keswa, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: Nobody else?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not see anybody else.

MR DU PLESSIS: Sir, then I refer you to page 20 of your statement,  paragraph 10 the first sentence and I will read it out to you.
"... I also saw Peens coming to the hostel on the day of the attack together with his colleague Chaka ..."
	Now what is your evidence, was Chaka with Mr Peens or was he not with Mr Peens?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I stated before that I only saw Chaka on the evening of the 17th.

MR DU PLESSIS: So you reject this sentence which I have read to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: You questioned me on who was present at the parking lot and I told you the people who were present.

MR DU PLESSIS: Sir, except for yourself, Mr Peens when he assaulted you the first time, or when he assaulted  you, you saw him at a meeting and then you saw him this time, were these the only times that you saw Mr Peens before the night of the attack at Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: Then sir, I refer you to paragraph 10 again, the last sentence in which you said
"... I often saw Peens meeting Victor Keswa and I am sure that he got money from Peens."
	Do you reject the statement?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I do.  Victor Keswa received money from Peens on the 17th, that is at the parking lot but I do not know about the fact that he often used to receive money from him.

MR DU PLESSIS: Sir, if I put it to you that Mr Keswa was in custody on that day, what would you say about that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.  As I said before, I last saw Victor Keswa on that day, I do not know what happened to him.

CHAIRPERSON: On what day is that?

MR DU PLESSIS: On the day of the meeting, the same day as ...

CHAIRPERSON: The 17th?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR DU PLESSIS: Sir, then I put it to you that it is my instructions that there never was a meeting on the 17th between Mr Peens, yourself and Mr Keswa, you are welcome to answer if you want to.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before he answers that, are you putting it to this witness that on the 17th of June, Mr Peens was in custody?  Mr Keswa, I beg your pardon?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Keswa, that is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay, all right.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.  I will just not implicate Keswa and Peens falsely.  I did see him on the 17th.

MR DU PLESSIS: How late in the day did this meeting take place?

CHAIRPERSON: Which meeting now?

MR DU PLESSIS: The meeting which you allege took place between yourself, Mr Keswa and Mr Peens, at what time of the day did it take place?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was during the day, I cannot say exactly what time it was.

CHAIRPERSON: We have canvassed this point, this  meeting, he has denied it and you put it to him that such a meeting didn't take place, what else is there to cover now?

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I will move on.  When did you see Mr Peens next after the meeting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Which meeting are you referring to?

MR DU PLESSIS: The meeting between yourself, Mr Peens and Mr Keswa?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I saw him in the evening of the 17th when we went to attack Boipatong.

MR DU PLESSIS: How late did you see Mr Peens?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please repeat that question.

MR DU PLESSIS: How late did you see him?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was in the evening, I don't know what the time was.

MR DU PLESSIS: How many hours after the alleged meeting between yourself and Mr Keswa and Peens?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall.  I saw him at the parking lot and thereafter I only saw him in the evening when we went to Boipatong.

MR DU PLESSIS: Where did you see Mr Peens in the evening?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: At the veld in Boipatong, that is near the bridge, that is on your way to Boipatong.

MR DU PLESSIS: Where did you find him in the veld?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There is a main road towards Sebokeng and there is a veld nearby there, that is just before you come to Boipatong.

MR DU PLESSIS: Was he alone?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said he was in the company of other Police Officers, he was not alone.

MR DU PLESSIS: How many other Officers did you see?