Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, my instructions from the persons that I represent, is that this was in fact a very ruthless war, would you agree with that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And that to a certain extent, certain killings were authorised even though the identity of those persons were not even known, it was simply because a person was an ANC member that he would be killed?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (No translation)

MR WILLS: Now, this type of activity was particularly bad, as I understand it, in Mpumalanga, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (No translation)

MR WILLS: You have alluded to the political divide between was it Mrs Khumalo and Zakhile Nkeli?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Mrs Qolo.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mrs Qolo, thank you.  You have indicated that it was Nkeli's faction of the IFP that was the faction that was particularly interested in the violent option?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (No translation)

MR WILLS: And Mrs Qolo was wanting at that stage, to negotiate solutions to the problems?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (No translation)  That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, is it also true that this same Nkeli was a very powerful and dominant Inkatha member over the IFP youth that resided in the Mpumalanga area?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (No translation)  That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, the seventh applicant, Mr Hlongwane,  Yoni, are you aware that he was in the group of IFP youth that were controlled by Mr Nkeli?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (No translation)  That is correct.

MR WILLS: Concentrating a little bit more on the nature of the warfare, you alluded to it in your evidence very briefly, but I would like to get more clarity on it, my understanding is that in the main, the townships were divided in different areas, there were ANC areas and IFP areas, or should I rather say UDF areas and IFP areas?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (No translation)  Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And is it also true that if you were an IFP person, it would be impossible for you to live in an UDF area?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Is it also true that, the converse is true that if you were a UDF person, you couldn't live in an IFP area?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, it seems from your evidence that one of the political objectives that you were involved in, and I refer you specifically to page 206, members of the Committee of the bundle, but paragraph 10(a) of your amnesty application, the actual form, and subsection 3, you use the phrase to eradicate political opponents of the IFP.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, the four persons who I represent, are obviously more junior to you or were more junior to you in the IFP at that stage.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, they also got the distinct impression and in fact were told, that this was one of the things that they had to do, they had to eradicate all opposition to the IFP in certain areas and at certain times, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Would that be consistent with your ...

UNKNOWN: May I interpose Mr Willis.  When you say they were told to eradicate, they were told by whom?

MR WILLS: Thank you Ms Chairperson, I am, at this stage I am just going through general instructions.  I will lead this evidence in more detail if you would require it.
	My understanding is that part of their training for example, Mr Mkhize, will testify to the effect that when he was trained in Caprivi, that a large part of the propaganda aspect of that training was that the ANC were the hated enemy and they must be obliterated at all costs.
	Would you say that that would form part of the training that he received, or the political indoctrination that he received?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct because he was in contra-mobilisation, yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, it seems to me that a characteristic of the political violence was that there was very little political tolerance exhibited by the ANC, sorry by the IFP for persons of a different political persuasion and by that I specifically, I want to harp on this point, that if you didn't, if you particularly if you were in a rural area, in an IFP supporting area, if the Chief was an IFP supporting person, you simply had to belong to the IFP?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And you described that in quite graphic detail in the example that you give in your affidavit.  If the Committee will just bear with me, yes, page 253 to 259 of the record, when you deal with the issue of Nkosi and the support you gave to Nkosi (indistinct)?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, am I to understand from this, that if a person lower down in the ranks of the military wing of the IFP, were to commit acts that were directed at UDF people or ANC people, and those acts were simply directed at those people because they were ANC or UDF persons, that that would in fact be sanctioned by persons such as yourself and persons even higher up in the IFP hierarchy?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: In fact, it went further than that, didn't it Mr Luthuli?  The persons who were particularly savaged and or from another point of view, successful in the attacks and those very brave warriors who were very successful were singled out and congratulated by certain persons, not so?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And is it also not so that three of the applicants I represent, that is specifically applicants 5, 6 and 7, Mr Mbambo, Mr Mkhize and Mr Hlongwane, that they were frequently congratulated by yourself, by M.Z. Khumalo, by Captain Langeni because they were so efficient and so successful in their operations?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: They were also regarded very highly by people who formed part of the local leadership in eSikhawini for this very reason, and by that I refer specifically to Mayor Bebebeyela and Mrs Mbuyasi?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLS: In fact, one could go as far as saying that you being the political, or sorry their Commander, their Military Commander, only received good reports in relation to the activities of these three persons?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And by good reports, I mean they were very successful on a military basis and they were fearless people who were very successful in military operations?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, the applicants whom I represent, have committed many human rights violations.  You are obviously aware of that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Do you know of, sorry and their operations were also widely known by not just yourself, but by a lot of persons who were connected to the IFP?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: By that I refer to the IFP leadership locally?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And to be specific, I am referring to eSikhawini at this stage, and this would be again Mrs Mbuyasi, Bebebeyela?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is correct.

MR WILLS: The activities would also be known, not so?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: The activities would also be known by the KwaZulu Police and people senior in the KwaZulu Police, specifically at Ulundi, I mean at eSikhawini?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.