Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-09

PHINEAS NDLOVU: It is Mahlanga.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Where is Mr Mahlanga presently?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: He has since been granted amnesty in 1992, he is outside.

MR BLACK: While we are in the kitchen at this preparatory state, I take my learned friend's point, it is not cross-examination, but you have, you see, I put it to you that you in your evidence, let me put it this way, there was this elderly lady in the kitchen.  Mantha came to the kitchen
because she was called there, her name was called.
	She saw the fuel scattered on the floor, she screamed and ran back into the house to warn the people and then the fire went up, then the fire started.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: The fire started after a while, after having had to deal with those sticks of matches that were lit and as to that Mantha was called, yes, that is correct, she was called and I had already indicated to the elderly people who were in the kitchen, that you need to go out, evacuate because we are going, we came, we have come here to burn down this house.
	Hendrik has ultimately committed a crime to us as comrades that is punishable by this severe punishment that we need to meet out.  As I was busy relating to the elderly people, I heard a sound, obviously when you light a match it
makes a sound, and upon that I turned to find that the stick was burning.
	I extinguished it and informed my comrades, no, we need to take people out first and as I have indicated the stove was hot, probably it was because it is winter months and stoves usually are hot at the time and the heat was making the atmosphere in the kitchen unbearable because it was kind of making the petrol to foam so to speak, to smell all over the kitchen.
	And while I was doing that, probably it is then that Christina approached the kitchen, I wouldn't say.

MR BLACK: One of the elderly people who was in the kitchen is present here and is hearing your evidence.  And I will consult further with her about what you are saying, but at the short time at my disposal and having looked through the record, your evidence in the record very briefly, and I may
well have missed this, but I certainly don't see anything in your evidence that was given earlier on at the trial that you had a discussion with the persons in the kitchen and that you made attempts to have them evacuated.
	I don't find it anywhere on this record at this stage.  I will examine it more closely tonight, if I am given that opportunity.  Instead what I find is a very brief reason of as to how you got burnt, and why the fire went up.  All I have, all that I can manage to trace is that you said that  Mr Mahlangu struck the match at an inappropriate time and that is how you got trapped in the house.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: That is how all of us got trapped in the house, we were all trapped.

MR BLACK: My instructions from the victims is that your comrades actually closed that kitchen door, pulled it closed
behind them when they went out when the fire, while the house was on fire and that is how you got trapped.  You got left behind unfortunately.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: No.

MR BLACK: Okay.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: When comrade Maqlanga struck the match, we were all inside.  The problem with the door, as I indicated, it had broken so this kind of door that you have a piece of....

MR BLACK: A bolt?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, a lever that could use to open the door and it had broken in a very inappropriate way that you need to put your finger and to open it, you have to squeeze hard and that goes with pain, but  ...

ADV DE JAGER: Did you leave the house through the same door where you entered the house?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, we left the house in the very same door.

ADV DE JAGER: And you've now demonstrated that this door had a latch?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And you are using the sort of pin attached to the straight part to open and close it?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I used my finger, because ...

ADV DE JAGER: ;	Yes, the ordinary one.  It is like a pin with a small ...

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, with something inside.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, how did you close it if it hadn't had the small pin?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Close?

ADV DE JAGER: How did you lock the latch?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Close as we get in?

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, after you got in, somebody closed it and locked it?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: It - to my mind, I was in front, but I think he just pushed it, because it doesn't necessarily mean you have to hold the handle to close it.  It is the kind of doors that whenever you push it, it has a smaller hole and when it moves here, it would go to the end where the pin must go in.

ADV DE JAGER: No, then I have misunderstood the mechanism of the whole thing.  But it is not that important.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you leave the house in the company of your companions or did they go out first?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I was the first to get out my Lord.

MR BLACK: Mr Ndlovu, the owner, the lady of the house is present, as I've said and she will explain fully to the court about this issue of the doors.  That it is denied - I
am just putting it to you now in fairness - she denies that that door handle was defective or as you have described to the court.  It was in working order, the doors were closed and pulled closed after you comrades had run out and you were unfortunately trapped.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: No, that is not the case and I had to squeeze my finger very tight to open up ... (tape ends)

MR BLACK: ... clarify that issue more and come back to you on that.  But let me put it to you, going back slightly again, perhaps I can put it to you tomorrow, but at this stage, after the incident which took place and I will elaborate on this incident tomorrow after Mr Hendrik Masupa has given more detailed instructions and had the opportunity of reading your evidence, after that incident at the shopping complex, you - your group resolved to go and burn
down the Masupa house, is that correct?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BLACK: The next scenario is that your group go and approach a Mr Sibisi, according to you you made a request to him that he take you to go and fetch petrol.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: That is correct.

MR BLACK: You then went and fetched petrol, you paid for it - a five litre plastic can of petrol.  And then drove back to Mr Masupa's house, is that so?  On your way back to the house, you actually have to pass the shopping complex where Mr Hendrik Masupa works and where the incident, altercation took place, is that not so?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: No, that is not so.

MR BLACK: Okay.  How long did ...

ADV DE JAGER: Is that not so, didn't you pass the shop again?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: After having got fuel, no.

MR BLACK: Then how long did this take you to go and get a plastic can, then to go and find the person with the car and then to take you to buy the fuel?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: It could be plus minus 10 minutes.

MR BLACK: 10 Minutes?  Okay.  Now, I've broadly put it to you that it will be denied that you had discussions with the inmates of the house or attempted to get them evacuated, okay.  After this burning of the house, what happened then?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I ran out to (indistinct) the place, because I was in flames as well and those who had not suffered burn injuries, helped me extinguish the fire on me and I had suffered burn wounds quite considerably on my legs.  And they were starting to stiffen up.  We went back to Mr Sibisi in the car and he drove to his home and from there we knew
that the Security Branch was on our trial now.
	We dispersed and agreed to run away from the Security Branch.

MR BLACK: Yes, and you told Mr Sibisi against his will, to take you to, or you requested him, if you want to even use that word, to take you to Lydenburg?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes.

MR BLACK: Now, ...

ADV DE JAGER: Did he agree or didn't he agree to take you to Lydenburg?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: He agreed, my Lord.

INTERPRETER: (The speaker's mike is not on)

ADV DE JAGER: Did you in fact go to Lydenburg?