Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-12

REV XUNDU: The witness is in Mr Chairperson.  Nombuyiselo Ntsiba Ngece, will you please get up?

NOMBUYISELO NTSIBA NGECE: (Duly sworn, states).

REV XUNDU: Thank you.

MTHETHO NGECE: (Duly sworn, states).

REV XUNDU: Thank you.  Mr Chairperson, they have been properly sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Sandi will lead evidence on behalf of the Commission.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Will you please come closer to the mike.  When you speak please come closer to the mike so that we can hear you.  You are going to talk about an incident of 1992 in Alice?

MRS NGECE: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Could you tell us what happened, what happened in February 1992.

MRS NGECE: On the 15th of October 1992 people knocked at my door.  Nokuzola opened.  They asked Nokuzola where Mthetho was.  They said the last time they saw him, Nokuzola responded saying that the last time she saw him he had gone to the march in Bisho.  Then the other brother emerged and they thought that it was Mthetho.  They asked who he was with.  Nokuzola said he was with the wife and child.  As my husband opened the door they asked for Mthetho. My husband said he does not know where Mthetho was.  When he said he does not know where Mthetho was there was a bang on both windows.  There was smoke.  When I started screaming after a lot of, we heard a lot of bangs I saw blood on myself.  When I started crying my husband said I must hide behind the door.  I do not know what else he said, but he fell on the ground.  The house was burnt.

CHAIRPERSON: We will give Mthetho a chance to talk as you maybe drink a glass of water mam.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

ADV SANDI: Are you the one that the police were looking for that day?

MR NGECE: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Where were you?

MR NGECE: I was at work in Fort Hare.

ADV SANDI: Were you working at Fort Hare?

MR NGECE: Yes, I still work there.

ADV SANDI: Who are these soldiers that came to your house?

MR NGECE: It was on Wednesday, 15th of October.  First of all, a white car, in the afternoon drove past, it was at about midday.  It was a car that was probably wanting to find out what is happening at my house.  Mbulelo, who is the last born at home, when he saw the car he went and told my mother.  My mother said Mbulelo should go and find out what this car is all about, because it is because of these cars that my child no longer stays at home.  Mbulelo went, but he could not write down the registration number.  When I asked Nokuzola if she remembered the faces of these people.  Mbulelo was going to write matric.  Nokuzola thought that Mbulelo had been studying and had gone home late.  The reason why she opened is the door is because they called all my names, even my nicknames.  It was clear that these people knew me well.

ADV SANDI: Apparently they went inside the house?

MR NGECE: Yes, after Nokuzola had opened the door, they went in.  They had masks on. They asked who is in the one room.  She said it is my brother.  They then said she had told them that I was not there.  She then explained that it was another brother.  They went to my room. They found my brother and they shot.
 There is a door that leads to the kitchen from the back.  Our bedrooms are aligned together.  Nosipho had a one month old baby.  My sister-in-law's child was two months old.  When she realised that there was blood splattered all over her she was not sure whether it is her husband's or her child's.  As she screamed and cried out, she ran to my father.  My father took her into his room.  The house was on fire by that time.  When we said that it, the whole family was out there, they threw a hand grenade onto the house.  They did not realise that my brother had died.  They thought he was just laying there.  The people from the village came.  My father was trying to stop the fire.  My father slipped and fell.  I am sure that my father's death is due to the injuries that he sustained at that time.  The next morning a car was hired to take all the injured.

ADV SANDI: Who were the injured?

MR NGECE: Nosipho was shot in the knee.  Nokuzola, who had opened the door, as she tried to jump out of the window she injured herself at the back.  She has got a big scar.  They also shot her at the shoulder.  My niece was shot in her hand.  Then my sister-in-law was shot in the arm and the stomach.  Also Elby was taken to the hospital.  My youngest brother came to tell me that our house had been burnt down.  When I asked what had happened he just said we must go.  We got into the car.   When we got to the ANC offices everybody from Msobomvu was there.  My father was there as well.  I was then told that my brother had passed away.  If I had the strength at that time and I knew who the perpetrators were I would have gone and revenged, because my family is as it is, because  of them.  These people know who they are.
 We then left for the hospital.  When we got there we saw my sister-in-law.  I knew by then that my brother had died.  I did not want to see my sister-in-law, because she was going to ask where my brother is.  She asked as I thought.  I told her that he was in another room in another hospital room.  She heard two days later that he had passed away.  I reported the case at the police.  They hardly took notice of me, really.  When I got home there were police taking photographs.

ADV SANDI: Mthetho, why were these soldiers looking for  you?

MR NGECE: Mr Chairperson, I think that it is because I was the Secretary of SANCO, also the Chairperson of the Youth League.  Before all that whenever there was a political incident in Msobomvu the police would arrest me.  The police, whilst I was detained, would try to look for evidence to link me to whatever incident.  Then they would not find any evidence and they would then take me back home.  Therefore, I do not know, that particular time, why they were looking for me.

ADV SANDI: Before this while incident was there political unrest in your village?

MR NGECE: The police would come when we have meetings, coming to disrupt the meetings.  I do not remember anything else.

ADV SANDI: Were peoples' houses burnt down or was yours the first house to be burnt down?

MR NGECE: Mine was the first.

ADV SANDI: Would the soldiers have any contribution in disrupting people's meetings?

MR NGECE: The soldiers at that time would go to Msobomvu.  They would camp in one particular field with their trucks.

ADV SANDI: How did the soldiers relate to the people?  How was their relationship between the soldiers and the members of the community?

MR NGECE: There was disharmony.  The thing is the soldiers, if they would come across you at night or in the evening, they would attack you.

ADV SANDI: Are there soldiers or police that you know of that contributed to this damage in your village?

MR NGECE: Yes, since 1992 to 1995 the case has been investigated.  Mr Galane, private investigators were investigating the whole case.  There is someone in the community, Dansda.  My sister came to me saying that Dansda had bought me expensive boots and jersey.  I asked why.  I asked my sister if my sister-in-law, if she owed him anything and why he had bought these things for her.  My sister-in-law tried to find out why it is that Dansda had bought me these things.  The police went to Mr Dansda.  Mr Dansda said that he knew exactly who it was that was involved because he was part of the planning.  He did not list these people, but in Mr Galane's investigation there is a soldier, Mr Tsanda, who is in King, who said that he had come across Madoda Kula and Madoda Kula said that they had a mission to accomplish in Msobomvu and I was the first person that they were going to beat up.  Therefore, Mr Kula was one of the soldiers that were there.

ADV SANDI: Mr Tsanda said this.  Is Mr Tsanda a police?