Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-01

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Okay, but I'm inviting you to give a logical explanation, apart from amnesia.   Look at it in the light of the facts that I've given you and give me a reasonable explanation, to the commissioner.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I've just told you, I cannot give you an explanation.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Thank you.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Now let us turn to another important issue.   The cockpit voice recorder is a half hour tape recording of the last half hour in the cockpit, is that correct?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Correct.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: It is a wire recorder which sits in the tail?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: It was recovered and deciphered?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: An official record and an official version of what is on that exists and was before the Margo Commission?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: That version was gathered at considerable expense, in excess of R200 000,00?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I don't know what the price was, but the answer is yes, it was considerable cost... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Okay.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: ...to the taxpayer.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Correct.   Now let's get back to the flight.   Have you ever flown aboard SAA flights to and from Taipei?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Have you ever taken off from Taipei on the way home on an SAA flight?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: When is dinner served?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: It depends what time the aircraft left.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Well, let's put it at hours... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...hours after leaving?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: What was the timetable at that point in time?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: They left, you know as well as I do what the timetable was, they left at, I think it was... (inter-vention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: It was about ten o'clock that night?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...it was about ten o'clock that night.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I think that's round about the time, okay.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: When would they have served dinner?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: It depends what class you're in, but probably within an hour after take-off, because it would be fairly late at night.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Well, do they not, is the normal standard fare that a bar service comes before the dinner?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: And that bar service is throughout the plane?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: That's why I'm saying it depends on what class you're sitting in.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Yes.   And thereafter they clear up the bar service, give you another drink and serve you a dinner?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Normally, yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Correct.   Are you aware that on the official version of the tape recording of the cockpit voice recorder there is a discussion in the cockpit of dinner being served?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Have you never been aware of that?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I'm not aware of it.   All I have looked at is the 83 seconds that had to do with the accident.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: But your own staff members had copies of that... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Uhum.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...of the official record.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Uhum.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: And if there were a discussion of a dinner on that cockpit voice recorder, Mr Van der Veer, I want to put it to you that it is extremely important, okay, because we know that had that cockpit voice recorder stopped functioning at the top of descent into Mauritius, dinner would long since have been served up and the plates cleared away, and that the tape recorder would have been covering topics other than a discussion of dinner, because I know of no flight where dinner is served at the top of descent, is that correct?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Not normally.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Correct.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I mean... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: So if a dinner is served, and if an official version of that tape recording is that dinner was discussed aboard that flight, and that conversation was recorded on the cockpit voice recorder, it would indicate that that cockpit voice recorder had stopped round about the time of dinner?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I guess so, but then remember your pilot would not necessarily be served dinner when the passengers are being served dinner.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: No, normally the pilot is served dinner at the end of the passenger (indistinct).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I don't know.   Okay, it depends... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: That is normally the case?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: ...it depends on - because they have been resting, their time is out, so they may elect to have dinner or something to eat at other times, I don't know.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: That may be, but this was dinner served in the cockpit, and it was dinner served to the entire cockpit crew... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Uhum.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...and it is unlikely that the version which you are wanting to suggest is the correct version.   It is likely that what happened is that at the time of the tape recording going useless, because of a fire I may add, it had its last conversation immortalised in the form of a discussion about dinner.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Uhum.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Which means that it would have occurred at the time dinner was served, do you accept that?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: To the pilot?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Correct.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: And that would not have been... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: If they discussed about it, then presumably that would be the time.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Mr Van der Veer, you're not going to seriously suggest that your crews aboard the aircraft, and your crews have an enviable reputation for being good crews, would be sitting guzzling dinner as they're preparing to go into Mauritius to land?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Certainly not.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Correct.   So to suggest that they were being served dinner at the time of the accident occurring or just before is not tenable?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I guess not.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Correct.   And therefore if a discussion of dinner, which is an official discussion about dinner, is immortalised on that tape recorder, it suggests that there is or was a problem which caused the CVR to stop functioning within two hours of Taipei?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Possible.   I don't know.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Well, could you give me a better explanation?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: It could be much more than two hours.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Well, three hours.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Okay.   It could be?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: It could be.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: But... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I think the suggestion here, Mr Van der Veer, is that, on all what he has been putting to you, the likelihood is more that the recorder was rendered unfunctionable, not as the plane was preparing to descend, but however significant the time might have been after it had taken off from Taipei?   So if we are talking eight hours of travel between Taipei and Mauritius, I think what is being suggested to you is that it was more in the direction of it happening after it left Taipei than when it was just about to land in Mauritius?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes, okay.   But the voice recorder did work, I mean it may have stopped, okay, I mean one could derive that from that, but the voice recorder did work when the actual incident happened... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.