Amnesty Hearings — Palm Ridge — 1998-12-01

CHAIRPERSON: And you kept it in, let's call it safekeeping, to ensure that it is not confiscated by any of the authorities?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you issue the firearms to members of the SDU when they had to go and engage in a fight?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Yes, I did that.

CHAIRPERSON: And once the Self Defence Unit members returned, you would receive the arms back and keep them in safety?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it - I'm not sure, was it three AK47 rifles that your street possessed?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Yes, there were three of them.

CHAIRPERSON: And all three those rifles, when they were not in use by the SDU members, were in your possession?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: For about what period roughly were you in possession of these rifles?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: That would depend on the situation.  I would sometimes keep them for two weeks and they got lost at the end as I've already told you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm just trying to get a clearer picture of the overall period of possession, from the time that you first got it until the time that you finally lost possession.  What sort of period are we talking about, was it a year, longer than a year?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: They were in my possession from the very first day up until one day in 1994.  I can't remember the date and the month.  The two comrades passes away and I don't know what happened to the firearms thereafter.
	I tried to investigate but I couldn't get information.  They just disappeared just like that.  I also don't even know what happened to the arms but two comrades passed away and they had those arms.

CHAIRPERSON: And just to get some more clarity, I think you have referred to the other one as well, but the third one, what happened to that one, can you just repeat that please?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: The third rifle, Fanyana Nhlapo, the one who testified here, was arrested and he had that firearm when he was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: So it looks as if it's the period from 1993 when you joined, until 1994 that the arms were in your possession.  Now during that period, were these arms often used in fights, did you issue them a lot to the members?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: No, it would happen that sometimes I'm not present, maybe I'm at work where I used to work.  My commander knew where the arms were and whenever he needed the arms he would go there and fetch them.  I did not allow anyone except my commander to go to my home and get hold of the arms.  I used to tell him that whenever there is a need he would go to such and such a place and get the arms.  Sometimes when I asked them if something did happen, he would just say to me nothing happened.  The arms were always in the same position that I left them.

CHAIRPERSON: And apart from the occasions when the commander would himself collect the arms, were they used on a number of occasions in fights where you were aware of, where you had issued them to members of the Self Defence Unit?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Whenever there is a need, maybe there is a fight, they would be used but if there is nothing the arms would not be used.  That is all I know.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we also assume that you accept that under those circumstances those arms could have caused a large number of injuries or even deaths?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Yes, I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: And then just to get the full picture from you in regard to your application.  Are you asking for amnesty for all of your participation in the activities of the Self Defence Unit?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But you're saying that you yourself have never taken any of the arms and shot people with them?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: No, I've never done that.

ADV SANDI: Mr Radebe, did I understand you to say that you joined the SDUs in 1993?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: According to your application form where you were asked to specify acts and offences in respect of which you're seeking amnesty, you say that is from July/August 1990 to December 1993.  Would you like to explain that?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: I think that was a mistake.  I know it was 1993 but I'm not sure about the date, it's definitely not 1990.  I don't remember the date but I do know that I joined during 1993.

ADV SANDI: In other words that is to say that from 1990 to 1992, you were not involved in anything, were you?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Could you repeat your question?

ADV SANDI: You only started in 1993 to be involved, otherwise before that you were not involved at all?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Probably that relates to the barricading of the roads or streets but joining the SDUs was during 1993.  Before then we used to just barricade the streets, and during 1993, it's only then that I knew about the use of guns and I joined the SDUs.  That is when the situation became unbearable, then I joined the SDUs.

ADV SANDI: So before 1993, you were involved in the barricading of the streets, what else were you involved in?  What else did you do before 1993?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: There are no other instances in which I was involved besides barricading because we would just barricade the streets and run away thereafter.  We were not involved in any human rights violations at that stage.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Radebe.  Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: So prior to formally joining the Self Defence Unit in 1993, you assisted where you could in the defence of the community from or against attacks?

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Could you repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Prior to actually joining up with the Self Defence Unit in 1993, and getting involved in the activities of the Self Defence Unit, would it be correct to say that you were generally involved and trying to help where you could in defending the community against attacks?  Say by barricading the streets or whatever it might be, but in a general sense trying to help.

BONGANI VICTOR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct, I was involved in whatever happened before 1993.  As a means of protecting the community it also involved barricading the streets.  I used to be involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Radebe.  Mr Sibeko, re-examination?

MR SIBEKO: None, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, thank you very much, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED