Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1992-05-12

MR DORFLING: The names contained in the fourth column reading from the left hand side of the page - is that your own handwriting?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: Is that the names of the guards you recorded yourself?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's my handwriting?

MR DORFLING: Do you agree that this was done on the 28th March 1994 prior to what is now known as let's call it the main shooting event at Shell House?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I would like to see the whole book, I can't work on one single page and make a decision.  There was two books and all those things - I'd like to have the full things in front of me before I..[intervention]

MR DORFLING: May I beg leave to make these two double page documents available to the witness?  It's actually a duplication but for his own purposes he can look at it.
The original is in the possession of the Attorney General, Mr Chairman, I haven't got that in my possession.

MR LAX: Mr Dorfling, are these pages, just so that we can clarify this, you've given us two single pages.  It's clear from what you've just handed up as it passed I noticed that these two single pages seem to be sitting next to each other?

MR DORFLING: Indeed so, it's the left and right side of the open firearm register.
	Are you satisfied that those are copies from the firearm register, Mr Kruser?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: They're copies from one of the firearm registers, ja.

MR DORFLING: Can we first of all concentrate on the left hand page which would be the first page in the bundle I've handed up to the honourable Committee, Mr Chair.  Do you agree that they reflect the names of security guards which had been issued with firearms on the 28th March 1994 prior to the main shooting at Shell House?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: They don't reflect it but I confirm they were issued on that date at the bottom.

MR DORFLING: Would you concentrate on the right hand side of the said page to the bottom of that page which would be the second page of the bundle I've handed up to the honourable Committee?  There's a further number of firearms that was issued on that day and against the firearm number is recorded the name or names of the security guards to whom these firearms where issued, correct?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: They were not issued by me, it's not my handwriting.

MR DORFLING: But do you agree it's a similar entry to the one you've made yourself, it reflects names of people that received firearms against the firearm number?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's reflected there, ja.

MR DORFLING: Now Mr Kruser, can we now return to your actual application and see what you disclosed with regard to this firearm register in your application for amnesty?
	May I specifically refer you to page 9 in bundle C, your Amnesty Application?  Have you got page 9 of your application in front of you sir?  It's actually page 2 of your - let's call it first affidavit.  Now I would like you to consider what you've disclosed to the Amnesty Committee with regard to this firearm or to any firearm register for that matter and I would like to read to you from paragraph 6 of your affidavit.
	"We feared that Shell House could come under attack at any time.  Radu instructed me to issue weapons to all available security personnel and to deploy them as a matter of urgency.  As result of the urgency, details of who took what weapons were not recorded and then entered in a firearm register in handwriting at that stage.  Certain security personnel had their own licensed weapons."
	These were the facts that you disclosed to the Amnesty Committee?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: Why didn't you disclose the existence of the firearm register which would indicate the names, sir?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: As I tried to explain earlier when we get a consultation around the statement my distinct recollection is that we wrote these names, as you can see it's just a number and a name, issued by G. Kruser - I wrote, in the court it was not even there and I wrote for the counsel to understand which guns I issued - that was not in the original document, it was not the normal procedure where I would have signed the document, get the member to sign, the date - none of those things are written there.  When I did the statement my recollection was these documents were not in front of me at that stage - my recollection was that I wrote it down somewhere.  I didn't specifically remember writing in the firearm register - I never followed the normal procedures as can be seen on this document.  Normally we would say what type of gun it was, I would sign the issue of the gun, I would put the date of issue which was not even put here, I would get the member to sign for the gun.  None of those things were done so when I did this statement I knew I wrote it somewhere, I wasn't exactly sure it was written in the normal firearm register.

MR DORFLING: Let me make perfectly sure I understand you sir?  At the time of you making this affidavit, you knew that you had a note somewhere but you didn't recollect it to be in the firearm register, is that correct?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: Why didn't you disclose that Mr Kruser?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Disclose what?

MR DORFLING: The fact that there was a note somewhere which would indicate the numbers of firearms issued and regards to whom it was issued?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think my statement reflects it was recorded, I don't think I denied it was recorded.

MR DORFLING: Would you care to indicate which portion of your statement you say reflect that it was recorded?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: It says it was not recorded in the firearm register, I think the interpretation would be it was recorded.

MR DORFLING: In other words what you wanted the Committee to read in there was the numbers and details were not recorded in a firearm register but it was recorded somewhere else.  Is that the interpretation you wanted the Committee to give to it?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's what I thought happened at that stage when I did the statement.  This statement was done at the time of preparation for the inquest and I was advised by my legal team that this statement is sufficient for me to apply for amnesty and I subsequently did so.

MR DORFLING: Now let's just test that proposition and see whether it makes any sense that you actually wanted to convey to the Committee that there was some record but it was simply not in a firearm register.  Let's turn to your second affidavit that was attached to your application, sir.  Let's particularly look at page 70.  Page 70 in bundle C Mr Chairman.  It was handed up at the inquest proceedings as Exhibit L15 in bundle 2 of volume 2.
	Can you look at paragraph 6 sir, I would like to read it to you?  "I have no independent recollection of details concerning to whom firearms were issued and when they were issued.  To the best of my knowledge, all available registers and allied documentations have been supplied to the office of the Attorney General."  Is that a true reflection of your state of mind at the time of making this statement?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Is this paragraph 5, firstly?

MR DORFLING: I'm referring to paragraph 6 which reads at paragraph 5, I'm referring to paragraph 6 at page 17 which reads at paragraph 5.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think I stated here I had no independent recollection of details concerning the firearms issued to me -if I had the firearm register in front of me I would have - that is a question - question to reply to an answer from the Attorney General's office and that was my answer, I didn't have the books and independently I could not recollect any of these events.  The books were not with me when I answered this question.

MR DORFLING: Can we turn to the ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Dorfling, just so we can understand the context, this looks like a set of replies to a request for further particulars.  Is that request for further particulars part of our papers?