Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

ISGAK HARDIEN: I recall that I received money to go up to cover my accommodation expenses and so forth and to return, but I cannot recall any other money that I received.

MR LAX: Just for the record, Mr Martini, it's the last paragraph on page 159 and it says
"Theunissen de Wet is currently in detention with me at the SAP, Secunda."
It doesn't necessarily mean they were in the same cell, but he was certainly at the same police station.

MR MARTINI: But still Mr Lax, there's a difference between saying they're at the same police station or in the same cell.

MR LAX: No, I'm fully aware of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe there's another reference that Ms Coleridge has in mind.

MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, there is another reference where they say, it's stated that they shared for a short while, but I will the reference in due course.
	Mr Hardien, is there anything else you want to tell the Commission in relation to this, your participation in the CCB activities?

ISGAK HARDIEN: There's nothing that I recall.  You asked me about the bomb and I told you about the bomb.  Not that I can recall.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hardien, just before I ask the others to ask you some questions, how long were you in detention for after you were arrested and taken to John Vorster Square and then Secunda - more-or-less?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I think it was approximately two to three months.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said that when you got the bomb in the sack at the airport, you were told to put the bomb in the Early Learning Centre and that you weren't told whereabouts in the Early Learning Centre and you had to us your own discretion as to where you would put it in the Early Learning Centre, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you also said that you were told that the purpose of putting the bomb there was to scare people.  Now bearing that in mind, why didn't you then put the bomb in the pantry or in a storeroom or some place, whey did you choose the hall to put the bomb?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Because as you enter the hall it is immediately there.  The other rooms were offices and there was a reception room, so to me I thought well no-one's in the hall, I'll just place it there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR LAX: Sorry, just to finish off.
	And did you put it in a cardboard apple box?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR LAX: Did you take both bags in with you, or just the one?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall if I took both, because the one was empty.  It may be that I took both of them with me and came out with one.  It is possible.

MS COLERIDGE: Sorry, Mr Lax, I've just got the reference for the cell.  It's on page 189, bundle B, Mr Hardien states
"Slang and I were together, we were in one cell"

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Just to finish off.
	On your way into the building, did you meet anybody?  Do you know Beula?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR LAX: You say in this statement that you bumped into her on the way in and you had a quick chat to her, she asked you if you were tired and then you said yes, you're very tired, you'd been walking far, words to that effect, and then you went into the hall.  You said you were going to rest there for a bit.  Do you remember that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  I think what I'll do, I'll just go down the line, I'll ask the applicants first unless there's been any arrangement with the legal representatives as to the order of questioning.

MR WESSELS: I've no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask the applicant's representatives first, Mr Williams.  Sorry, Mr Rheede?

MR RHEEDE: Chairperson, may I just clear up one or two points, there are just a few things that I would like to ask him.
	Mr Hardien, when you were detained in Secunda in terms of the Internal Security Act and Section 29 thereof, I accept that you cannot read, but did the police read your statement back to you at all?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR RHEEDE: But you did sign it, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR RHEEDE: And when you conducted the interview with members of the TRC, you have testified and you told us that it was not recorded.

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR RHEEDE: Before the interview, did they explain anything to you about legal representation?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Not at all.

MR RHEEDE: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MR RHEEDE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Hardien?

UNKNOWN: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Martini, do you have any questions you'd like to put?

MR MARTINI: Just a few, Chairperson.
	Mr Hardien, in August 1997, were you aware that one could still apply for amnesty?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I think there was a deadline of sorts.  I don't know if it was at that time.

MR MARTINI: Now when you met Zenzile Khoisan of the TRC, did he advise you to apply for amnesty?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I actually asked him and then he said no, I shouldn't worry, they would notify me one day.

MR MARTINI: Did you ask him if you should apply for amnesty and he said no, they'll notify you one day?  I don't understand your answer.  Did you ask him whether you should apply for amnesty?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Please repeat that.

MR MARTINI: In August, did you ask Zenzile Khoisan whether you should apply for amnesty?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: And what was his response to you?

ISGAK HARDIEN: He said that I shouldn't worry, that they would notify me one day.

MR MARTINI: Not to worry, they will notify you one day?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Notify you about what?

ISGAK HARDIEN: About the things that I asked him about, about my position, whether or not I should apply for amnesty.

MR MARTINI: But you were never advised to request amnesty for this act at the Early Learning Centre?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Did you request or obtain any advice from him for you to do so?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, he didn't explain anything to me.  I told him that I didn't know anything about these things.

MR MARTINI: Mr Hardien, during these proceedings were you ever threatened?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Once, I think it was at the same venue.

MR MARTINI: By whom?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Chris Ferndale.

MR MARTINI: And how did he threaten you?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall his precise words to me, but he said something to the effect of: "We're not finished with you" and I said to him: "You cunt, I'm finished with you, 'cause you're a cunt."  That's what I said to him directly, "you're a cunt."

MR MARTINI: Mr Hardien, let us try to ...(inaudible)

ISGAK HARDIEN: Those were the words that I used, it doesn't help for me to hide it.  That's what I said to him, because if I had to hide it, then I'd be lying.

MR MARTINI: Mr Hardien, were you ever approached to change your statements which you had already made?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I was with Mr Williams and he advised me on where to obtain legal representation in order to see to my best interests and that the statements that I gave with Slang and the others weren't true and that I should consult with my attorneys and tell them what was going on.

MR MARTINI: So you were not asked to change your statements as such?

ISGAK HARDIEN: To me it appeared that he was going to give me the names of attorneys who would assist me with my statement, because what I had said wasn't the truth, that I was simply to tell the truth.

MR MARTINI: So did Mr Williams tell you that what you had said in your earlier statements was not the truth?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Did you ask him what wasn't the truth?