Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Sir, in the spirit of reconciliation and I have been trying to be as honest with this court as I can, I deny and Mr Forbes, if I am denying this, then one of us two are lying.	Because after you initial arrest and your initial interrogation, I concede on the Saturday I assaulted you.  I then assaulted you I think it was on the Monday evening, that was after that we went for the steak, am I correct?
	After that, I took you on investigation to the Eastern Cape.  Whereas to refresh your memory, and I am not saying it flippantly, as you said it was the most Kentucky Fried chicken you have ever eaten.  Either after that or prior to that, we attempted to go to the Western Transvaal where you were going to do some pointing out.
	Could you remember the time that you had seen snow for the first time?  Can you remember what happened in the snow?  The husband and the wife and the two children who were taking photo's of you playing in the snow along the N1?
	Your trip to Colesberg, where you braaied with me that night and with the rest of the Unit, therefore Mr Forbes, in the spirit of honesty and reconciliation, I am sure you are making a mistake about the 16th of every month was the day that I would assault you.

MR FORBES: Mr Benzien, maybe I will take you through the next time that I was assaulted and I will just see if there are aspects of that torture that you may remember.
	For example on the second occasion do you remember that I was wrapped in the carpet?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That was the Monday, the Monday night.

MR FORBES: Do you remember for example that my clothes were removed and that the wet bag method was again used on me?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I would concede it could have happened.

MR FORBES: Do you remember after that, putting me onto a chair and then saying to me that you are going to break my eardrum and then hitting me against my ear?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, Sir.  Not saying I am going to break your eardrum.  I gave you a smack that evening on your ear and days later you told me that you think your eardrum was broken.  You were examined by a District Surgeon in Queenstown if I am not mistaken, but you had also been sitting at the open window in the vehicle.

MR FORBES: Do you remember saying that you are going to give me a blue eye and then hitting me against my eye?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No Sir.  If I can again, please emphasise to the court, at that stage Mr Forbes had not been placed under Regulation 29 yet.  I knew he had to be examined by a Doctor.

MR FORBES: Do you remember saying that you are going to break my nose and then putting both your thumbs into my nostrils and pulling it until the blood came out of my nose?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I know you had a nose bleed.  I thought it was as a result of the smack I gave you.

MR FORBES: Do you remember choking me and then knocking my head against the wall until I was a bit unconscious?  Till I lost consciousness?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No Sir, I am not aware of Mr Forbes loosing consciousness at all.

MR FORBES: You for example had spoken to ...

ADV DE JAGER: What about the knocking of the head against the wall?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Sir, I doubt if I hit his head against the wall, because all this could have led to marks.

MR FORBES: I would just like to say that these are all occurrences that I can clearly remember.  But then to continue could I then ask Mr Benzien, apart from I think the impression that you are giving this Commission is that we went on these joy trips in the snow and for braais and so forth, can I put it to you that it was always after an assault of this nature, that we would be taken on these trips and that the intention of these trips was to ensure that the injuries would heal and that I would actually not get into contact with the District Surgeon?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, Sir, I deny that, because at the place of detention, while travelling with a Regulation 29 prisoner, he had to be examined by the District Surgeon of the area where he was brought.

JUDGE WILSON: So would there be records available of these various trips you have told us about, of examinations by District Surgeons at all of them?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: There should be, Sir.

MR FORBES: Mr Benzien, you seem to say that you are very dedicated to finding out where the arms were and who were the other people who may have been involved in military activities.   Why is it that these kind of things, why would you not want to take responsibility for knocking my head against the wall, when you clearly say that you may have used the wet bag method, you may have smacked people, but then why is it that knocking my head against the wall, is not something that you would take responsibility for?  Is it not that you would have done anything to have gotten the information, come short of killing people, if need be?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As I explained before Your Honour, my method was not to leave marks.

MR FORBES: Can I then ask at this point, what you mean when you say you take responsibility for half an hour, that the interrogation or that the assault took place within half an hour.
	Is that the period in which the wet bag was used or is this referring to the entire process of interrogation?  That may have included smacking, threatening, knocking peoples heads against the wall and so forth?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Mr Chairman, right in the beginning of my submission, I mentioned the fact that the methods used by me normally took no more than half an hour, except in the case of Mr Forbes and Mr Jacobs.	I specifically made reference to those two gentlemen.  By that I meant it took longer.  I hope my memory isn't failing me, but Mr Jacobs was arrested on the Saturday morning and he was interrogated right through the Saturday morning, till approximately two o'clock, actual time.
	Why I say actual time is that knowing we were working against the cut out, we had set our watches and dubbed Mr Jacobs into saying that it was almost two o'clock or something.  Or almost four o'clock, where in actual fact it was almost two o'clock.  That is the one where I took longer and Mr Forbes, I am not even sure if he was interrogated on the Saturday afternoon, but well on the Monday evening.

MR FORBES: Mr Benzien, after about three months in interrogation, I tried to commit suicide, just before the 16th, I think it was of July.  As from my perspective I would have seen that particular act it is something that I have never thought of before, even after - something that I wouldn't ever think of doing, but under those conditions, after three months in your hands and just prior to the 16th, I had tried to commit suicide.
	Could you perhaps from your perspective try and explain or try to help the Commission to understand why I would have come to that point to have tried to commit suicide?

CHAIRPERSON: Were you aware of the fact that he tried to commit suicide?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I was so informed Mr Chairman.  What actually led to that, I cannot say, except that I concede the method of detention was a draconian law instituted by the then Nationalist Government, Sir.
	If I may elaborate on this point, Mr Forbes will surely also concede that at a later stage, he had been moved to Milnerton police cells and it was while at Milnerton police cells, if I can remember correctly, that Regulation 29 detainees or Article 29 detainees, were only allowed  a Bible of their choice.
	Mr Forbes used to read Western novels.  Could I just ask Mr Forbes if he can remember the times that I contrary to police regulations, brought him Western books to read?  Do you remember it?  Excuse me Mr Forbes, I can't hear you?