Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-11

MR LAX: Was Samuel present at the tavern?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No.

MR LAX: When did he come on the scene?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: We met him next to his home in Zone 12 Extension.

MR LAX: He had a knife with him.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I did not see it.

MR LAX: You didn't ask anyone else for a knife so that you could finish this person off?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No.

MR LAX: You see, according to both your and Radebe's evidence - or let's put it another way, according to what's contained in your various affidavits you weren't going to kill them at that stage at all, you were only going to kill them much later once you'd questioned them and that is why you were taking them to the Zone 12 office, isn't that so?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: That is so.

MR LAX: So how could a decision have been taken to kill them at that point in time?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Elsie was arguing and it was necessary to shoot her and forget about her because she was not co-operating.

MR LAX: Now all these girls that were IFP members from the township, weren't all of them wanted?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: We wanted them all.

MR LAX: What steps did you take before this day to track down these people?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I do not understand your question.

MR LAX: What steps did you take to try and locate these people so that you could deal with them?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Before which day, Sir?

MR LAX: Before the day you killed Hapile.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: We did not want them in the township, we would not go and start fighting against them where they were.

MR LAX: So you knew where they were?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

MR LAX: And where was that?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Kwamadala.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lax.  Ms Bosman, do you have any questions to put to Mr Mkhwanazi?

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Mkhwanazi, did you know Ms Ndumo's family? - you said they lived only five houses from you.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you know them well?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Very well.

ADV BOSMAN: As far as you know were they ANC supporters?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: According to my knowledge they were not members of the ANC.

ADV BOSMAN: No, I asked were they ANC supporters.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I do not know.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you have a good relationship with them?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you ever ask them where Hapile was, why she was no longer around?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No.

ADV BOSMAN: Why not?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I would not ask them such a question, they would suspect that I was one of those people who wanted to kill their child.  I did not want to sow hatred between myself and them.

ADV BOSMAN: But why would they have suspected this?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: There was a child in the family who died in Zone 12, and it was rumoured that the child was an Inkatha member.  I think this family was always scared, now my coming and enquiring about the other child would have made me a suspect.

ADV BOSMAN: I don't understand that.  This child you're referring to who had died, was it a member of this family?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: How old was Hapile?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I do not know.

ADV BOSMAN: Approximately.  Was she about your age at the time or was she a grown woman?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I think she was a bit older than me.

ADV BOSMAN: Alright, thank you.  The name Kendal Malakwane - I don't know whether I'm pronouncing it correctly, Kendal Paulos Malakwane, did you know the name?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Who was this person?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: He stayed around the Small Farm area.

ADV BOSMAN: Was he a member of the SDU?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: He was a member of the MK.

ADV BOSMAN: Was he not the commander of your unit?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No.

ADV BOSMAN: If Mr Radebe said that he was the commander of the  unit, would you say no, it's a mistake?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: According to my knowledge Mr John Radebe once belonged to a unit in Small Farm.  I would not dispute when he tells me that, I do not know.

ADV BOSMAN: When did he belong to the unit in Small Farm?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: 1990/1991, around those years.

ADV BOSMAN: When he was about 13 years old?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I think so.

ADV BOSMAN: What I find a bit peculiar is this tavern was in Zone 8, was that a zone where ANC supporters stayed, Zone 8, or was it an IFP zone?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: The ANC supporters.

ADV BOSMAN: Now I don't know whether you have any suggestion but can you perhaps comment on it.  I find it strange that women who have been lashed, women who have been away and are known that they are wanted by the people and they don't want them in the area, why would they come to a tavern in an ANC area?  I just have no explanation for that, can you offer one?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: They might have gone to that area because it was not their place of living.  They did not go to their area where they lived because they knew that when they get into the township they would identified easily.  Maybe they went there because they knew they were not known.

ADV BOSMAN: Is Zone 8 a long way from Zone 12?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: It's quite a distance.

ADV BOSMAN: And then just one last question.  On the day that you met John Radebe, on that Sunday, there was no plans or anything to go and ask any people questions or to enter into any political activities, on the Sunday when you met them?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No.

ADV BOSMAN: Now why did he insist that you should go with him?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: We were visiting a certain person in Zone 8 with John.  We met him in Small Farm and he said we should please accompanying him to a tavern in Zone 8, there was someone owing him ....(intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: No, but - if I could just stop you there, why do you say that he insisted that we should accompany him?  It's in the two pages annexed to your application.  Why did he insist?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: He did not insist.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know what the word insist means?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: According to my mind, insist is to force.

ADV BOSMAN: Alright then, let's just try again.  Did you say to him that you did not want to go with him?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: No, we just agreed.

ADV BOSMAN: Now why did you use the word "insist"?
"He insisted and asked us to accompany him."
This is on page 183 of the bundle, the 5th line.

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: I have a request to make.  The statement is right but at the time of making this statement I was in a hurry, I had been informed that the date was due for the handing in of applications.  Now I was in a hurry when I did this.  Now somewhere along the line there would be mistakes and I am asking for your forgiveness in that regard.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, I have no further questions, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhwanazi, when you were just questioned by Ms Bosman as to why you didn't go to Ms Ndumo's house to find out about her whereabouts after she had disappeared, your response was that you didn't do so because you didn't want them to suspect that you were one of the people who intended to kill their child, do you recall giving that evidence?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a secret that you were a member of the SDU?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: It was not.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a secret only known to SDU members that if there IFP members or supporters in your midst it was your duty to eliminate them?

FANIE ABRAHAM MKHWANAZI: It was not.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I find your response therefore to her question very surprising.  Do you understand my concern?  It brings me to an enquiry whether you as SDU members had a mandate to eliminate person who were perceived to be IFP members or supporters.