Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: No, Mr Chair.  It is possible.  Maybe I signed it.  It is possible that it was taken but I don't remember taking such a statement.

MR VALLY: ... show it to you or I will read portions of it and you tell me if you recollect anything.
"I am presently detained in terms of section 29.  I am an ex member of the African National Congress".
He then talks about his recruitment.  He talks about his military training.  He talks about his arrest.  He talks about his detention.  He talks about his joining the police.  He talks about which cases he was a state witness in.  Do you have any recollection of this?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: No, Mr Chair.

MR VALLY: He then talks about being taken to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house.  And then events that took place in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house.  Do you have any recollection of this?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Mr Chair, some of the facts mentioned tells us that he was arrested, that he joined the police, that he had something to do with Mrs Mandela but I do not remember these statements.

MR VALLY: Mr du Toit I put it to you that you knew a lot more than you are stating in your affidavit - that you stated under oath today.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Mr Chair, any person has a right to an opinion.  I deny all accusations.

MR VALLY: And I put it to you that I find it absurd that you, being a member of the security branch in Soweto, was not aware at all or interested at all or did not make any enquiries whatsoever about any follow ups regarding any of the issues where you had taken an affidavit personally from Mr Mabotha.   Rather than absurd maybe I should use the word improbable.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Mr Chair, what enquiries should I have made?  I arrested him, I did the statement.   I am sorry I missed the rest.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally please wind up now.

MR VALLY: Mr Du Toit it is only fair to warn you, and you know it as a policeman of longstanding, that any person who lies under oath may be committing perjury.  That I certa inly would be advising the Commission to very carefully look into your affidavit that you handed in today and consider what our options are regarding this issue.  I think it is only fair to warn you so that you can get proper legal advice on this issue.  Thank you Mr Du Toit.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Are there any questions from any of the legal representatives present?   There aren't any.  Mr Richards?

MR RICHARDS: Thank you, Chairperson.  Sir, is it not correct when you are given the task of taking a statement  whoever instructs you to do it explains where that statement fits into the investigation and gives you a bit of background so that you know what you are doing?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Mr Chair, if it is about this statement that I did on arresting Mabotha I don't think it would have been necessary for anybody to tell me to take it to murder and robbery and so forth but the facts are elementary.  You get the documents in his possession, he confesses, et cetera.  Nobody has to explain to you what the statement is supposed to be like.

MR RICHARDS: Sit in the context you knew that you had a situation where Stompie Seipei had been murdered.  Now we know that Jerry Richardson says on the instructions of Winnie Mandela.  And that in this case this man Mabotha had information to the effect that Mrs Mandela was trying to disguise and cover up the murder.  Is that
not correct?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I heard something like that, yes.

MR RICHARDS: And that's the relevance of the statement that you tried to take from Mr Mabotha.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Yes, it is about his arrest and the documents and what he told me.  I don't think I could have done more than to give this statement to the people who were investigating the Stompie Seipei case.

MR RICHARDS: That the background to Mabotha was that from either side of the fence, whichever way you looked at it, he was an informer.  He had informed on both parties.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I did not consider him an informer.

MR RICHARDS: But what else is an iskari?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Personally I don't regard him as an informer.  I think many people would not see him as an informer.  I might be wrong but that is my opinion.

MR RICHARDS: But the fact that he had turned again on Vlakplaas and gone back to the ANC meant that he had to be returned to Vlakplaas, isn't that correct?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Those aspects I did not deal with.  I didn't work with the Askaris.  What I do know was that he was an Askari who had deserted and he would probably have gone back.  But at that stage he was to me a person with information and the statement was given to murder and robbery.

MR RICHARDS: Thank you, Mr Chair.

MR HUGO: Mr Du Toit, I just want some clarity on one or two aspects.  You now get on a certain day instructions from your officer commanding to go to Groblersdal to arrest somebody.  Is that correct?  The man who gave you the instruction was?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Colonel Grobbelaar.

MR HUGO: Colonel Grobbelaar.  So now you are in the same vehicle with Grobbelaar.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I did not say we went in the same vehicle.  I don't know how many vehicles, one or two.

MR HUGO: I am asking you did you travel in the same ...

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I am not sure in which vehicle.

MR HUGO: When your officer told you that you were going to arrest him did you ask who the person was and why he was being arrested?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: As I said it was about Themba Mabotha who had deserted as an Askari.

MR HUGO: And did you at that stage know that the Askaris were housed and were in command of Vlakplaas - under command which stood under Col De Kock?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Yes, I knew that.

MR HUGO: Before the arrest was executed you had not to the best of your knowledge informed De Kock that one of his Askaris was to be arrested at Groblersdal.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: That is what I can remember, sir.

MR HUGO: In how many vehicles were you moving from Jo'burg to Groblersdal to arrest him?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: It could have been two vehicles.  If we were six people it would probably have been - it might have been three.  I am not sure.  Let's say two.

MR HUGO: Now there are six people and I assume that all of them are related to the security branch Soweto or Johannesburg.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Yes, I think they were all from Soweto, from our office.

MR HUGO: Let me put it to you can you remember that Mr Chappies Klopper was a part of the group?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: It is possible.

MR HUGO: If I put it to you that Mr De Kock is going to testify that Mr Klopper was one of the prominent members of the group?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: That is possible.  I would not deny it or dispute it.

MR HUGO: Now you reach Groblersdal and the arrest takes place.  What is the charge that you give Mr Mabotha on the strength of which he is being arrested, to the best of your memory?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Because he was a person who had deserted from Vlakplaas.  A member of the SAP who had deserted.  That is why we went there.

MR HUGO: You arrest him because he deserted from Vlakplaas?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Yes, that is correct.  We suspected that he had deserted and that he might be involved with other illegal activities.

MR HUGO: You were not aware of any other wrongdoings except that he had deserted from Vlakplaas.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Yes, that is correct.

MR HUGO: And you suspected that you were going to get other information if you arrested him.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Yes, that is correct.

MR HUGO: Now you arrest him.  And you are present at the arrest.  What do you find when you arrest him?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: In his jacket pocket there were certain documents as I said in my statement.  That he had to say that he was in Botswana and that he saw Stompie in a refuge camp and he said also that the document was in his handwriting but that the wording had been done by Mrs Mandela.