Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: A specially built bomb was acquired from JoeVerster of Special Forces which was the run-up to the later BSB.  There were particular preparations made with regard to the particularmodel of car which Pete Ntuli drove in, which is a Toyota Cressida,so that it would have been possible to fit the bomb to the bottomof this vehicle.   We co-operated with the SADF Special Forcesin terms of the general instructions given by Brigadier Schoon.  Myself, Captain Hechter and Captain Jaap Van Jaarsveld wentwith the bomb to Kwandabele.   Later in the afternoon, CaptainChris Kendall, the Branch Commanding Officer of this SecurityPolice in Bronkelspruit who was responsible for Kwandabele, alsoarrived.   Gouws and Oosthuizen were attached to the Murder &Armed Robbery section of the South African Police which investigatedthe activities of the Mbkhoto in Kwandabele under Brigadier DantjieVan Wyk.   We met Mr Oosthuizen and Gouws at Siabuswa(?), whichwas then the seat of the Kwandabele Government.   We waited allday to see how we could attach the bomb to Pete Ntuli's vehicle.  That particular evening there was a meeting at the house ofthe Chief Minister in the Ministerial complex in Kwandabele.  There was an open piece of veld across from the Ministerial complexfrom where we watched the complex.   When it had become dark,myself, Hechter and Captain Kendall drove to the complex in CaptainKendall's vehicle.   We parked next to Pete Ntuli's vehicle andI sent Kendall to the Chief Minister to tell him that I wouldlike to meet with the Chief Minister, whom I had not met yet atthat time.   While Kendall was in the house of the Chief Minister,Hechter sneaked underneath Ntuli's Cressida vehicle and mountedthe bomb.   The Minister of Police, Mr Nglameni, then came out
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of the Chief Minister's house.   I approached him and greetedhim and we had a conversation.   After the bomb was planted underNtuli's vehicle, we returned in Kendall's vehicle.   We then droveback to the open piece of veld in front of the main gates of theMinisterial complex.   It was then agreed that Oosthuizen andGouws would handle the two distance detonators.   These distance-controlleddetonators were set so that the bomb would explode in a distantpart of the road which Ntuli normally used.   There was a mechanismto prevent that innocent persons would be hurt.   The bomb wouldonly explode 30 seconds after the detonator had been set so thatthe bomb would explode in an unbuilt area, which indeed did happen.  After the bomb exploded we drove out to the base of Gouws andOosthuizen which was about four kilometres from Siabuswa.   Whenwe arrived at the base we received information from the policeradio with regard to the explosion and with Brigadier Van Wykand some of his staff, we returned to the scene of the explosion.  The Commissioner of Police of Kwandabele, Brigadier Van Niekerk,also arrived at the scene.   The next day I went to BrigadierCoetzee, the Commissioner's office, and the Kwandabele Governmentclaimed that I was responsible for the bomb.  The matter was investigatedby the head of the Detective Services, General Schutte - the Chiefof CID I would presume.   I was never questioned in this regard.  I had to hand in a report and I was not involved in the legalinquest or gave testimony at the legal inquest.   Special Forceswould initially have performed this operation with us, but inthe event we only received the bomb from Special Forces.   Mbkhotoacted in a similar manner to the ANC and attempted to destabilisethe area in a manner similar to
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that of the ANC.   This occurred by means of burning down housesand schools and by means of consumer and school boycotts.   ThenMbkhoto and the ANC had the same purposes, namely political unrest,murder, assault and destabilisation.   Shops were closed, waterand lights were cut off.   We received information that Pete Ntuliand his Mbkhoto on one particular evening burned down a houseand that two children came out of the house and that Pete Ntulithrew the children back into the fire.   This case was investigated,with no consequences.   We received information that Pete Ntuliand the Mbkhoto's intentions were to make Kwandabele ungovernableand to make the existing Government ineffective and to destabiliseKwandabele.   The Mbkhoto of Pete Ntuli had the same destabilisingeffect in Kwandabele as the ANC.   In effect the Mbkhoto achievedthe purposes of the ANC with regard to the destabilisation ofKwandabele.

<UNKNOWN>: For a moment Brigadier for further claritycould you explain to the Committee whether you knew or whetheryou could remember with what purpose the Mbkhoto were founded?

ANSWER: The Mbkhoto were founded with the purpose ofassisting the Government of Kwandabele towards the purpose ofindependence.

<UNKNOWN>: With regard to the deeds of the Mbkhoto, didthey achieve this purpose?

ANSWER: No in their actions they acted against the Governmentof Kwandabele and they did exactly what the ANC did.

<UNKNOWN>: Could we then return to your testimony at thelast paragraph on page 118?

ANSWER: Pete Ntuli's activities was therefore aimed,by
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means of the activities of the Mbkhoto, against the then Governmentof Kwandabele and advanced the purposes of the ANC in the processof destabilisation.   The Government of Kwandabele at that timeserved the purposes or had a positive attitude towards the SouthAfrican Government.   The Mbkhoto worked against the politicalpurposes of the Government.    I may mention that if there wasno peace in Qwandebele they would not have achieved independenceand Pete Ntuli must have known this.   His elimination would haveadvanced the independence of Kwandabele.   I want to mention inaddition that I was convinced in my heart, with information availableto me, that Pete Ntuli was in fact a double agent who gave theimpression that he worked for the South African Government butthat in fact his activities were the very opposite of that.  I also ascertained that the brother of Pete Ntuli, (whose namethe interpreter could not hear) who was a Warrant Officer in theCar Theft Unit in Springs, that Pete Ntuli was accused of armedrobbery, that he was found guilty and in fact sentenced to deathand that during the course of the court case there had been testimonywhich was robbed was used to fund the ANC.   This confirmed mysuspicion that Pete Ntuli was in fact working for the ANC.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier let's return to certain aspects withregard to which you have given testimony.   Can you remember whatthe position of the Kwandabele Government had been with regardto independence?

ANSWER: The Kwandabele Government supported the notionof independence for Kwandabele.

<UNKNOWN>: Were they supported by the South African Government?
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ANSWER: Yes they were supported by the South AfricanGovernment.

<UNKNOWN>: Was Pete Ntuli a Minister?

ANSWER: He was the Minister of Home Affairs of the KwandabeleGovernment at that time.

<UNKNOWN>: Can you remember what the attitude had beenof the population of Kwandabele with regard to independence?

ANSWER: The people of Kwandabele were entirely opposedto independence.

<UNKNOWN>: Would you know why they were opposed?

ANSWER: They were opposed because of the acts of theUDF and the ANC.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, the independence of Kwandabele wouldthat have been part of the apartheid policy of the South AfricanGovernment?

ANSWER: Indeed.  In addition they wanted independencebecause the idea would have been that if there were to be votesin the future then the people of Kwandabele would not be ableto vote in South Africa.

<UNKNOWN>: Can you remember, there has been testimonyin this regard, but just elaborate on this again, what would havebeen the state of unrest in Kwandabele from about 1984?