Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-08

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that's how I see it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Why didn't you report to your seniors after this incident with Mr Jack?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I'm not talking about that.  That's not what I referred to?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Why not?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It wasn't necessary for me to explain to him which method I used to get information.  It was irrelevant.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I doubt whether you understand my question.  Reporting after the assault on Mr Jack, are you referring to that?  Are you referring to that incident?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you report that to your senior people?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I didn't with regard to the assault.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who is this "him"?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is my commander.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who is that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is Du Plessis.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So it was Du Plessis who gave the instruction?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Not to assault, but to interrogate.  That was our instruction;  to interrogate the leader elements.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But you said that you were not quite sure whether Du Plessis said that you had to detain the detainee for a further period, but now Du Plessis is coming back;  that you're quite sure that it was he who gave the instruction.  That sounds strange.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, perhaps I'm not understanding you correctly.  What I want to say is that we were informed initially when the emergency regulations were instituted.  	Du Plessis got us all together, explained it to us and the leader elements were then placed in priority.  Everybody gave his input and the instruction was given that these people had to be interrogated, because we had to try to stabilise the unrest situation, and on that basis, we did that, but when Mr Jack was arrested;  who arrested him, I don't know.  I can't remember.  Who gave the instruction to detain him, I can't remember.  That's all I want to say to you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you didn't report to Mr Du Plessis with regard to this assault?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, not with regard to the assault.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Why wasn't it necessary for you to report to him, saying that I was interrogating this person and unfortunately I used a sjambok?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It wasn't necessary for me to explain that to him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Why not?  Because the man could have been injured; he received medical treatment; he was injured.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: At that stage I just didn't think of reporting it to him.  It wasn't necessary.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What happened to this man;  was it just one of those things that you could have done?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Let's go back to your application, page 21, paragraph two.  A question has been asked of you;  You have answered it.  I refer you to Annexure 15 on page 129.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I have it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: According to your testimony you said that you didn't know who arrested him.  You also didn't give the instruction that he should be detained for a further period, but the warrant was signed by you to request him - I will read it, the first paragraph of annexure 15 on page 129.
"You are hereby notified that Mkhuseli Jack, a Black man, according to regulation 3 of the Act of 1953, is arrested and he must then be brought to you from St Albans."
Now the word "arrested", for me it implies that he has been arrested and who arrested him?  Isn't that so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, this is a warrant that has been compiled by the Department of Justice, which makes provision, according to the emergency regulations. 	Now, the terminology used there, the question in the emergency regulation, is you must then form this opinion when you detain this person, that he falls within the context of that particular regulation.
	That is how you must understand it.  That is how I understand it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, I understand it also, but the word is "arrested".

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's a question of semantics.  There are different words used.  Those were the words used by Kobie Coetzee, or whoever, the Parliament.  I was just part of executing the function of detaining the person, because then there is a warrant issued to detain him. This is just a preliminary warrant.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You signed this?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In other words, what is included in this particular annexure, you agree with that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is so.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And then page 24 of the application, paragraph 6
"After I confronted him with the facts and questions, he was rebellious and stubborn."
And my question is precisely what did he do?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: He became angry and he said, "Nieuwoudt you prove it".

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: He became angry?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It was then necessary to assault him, because he became angry and he was arrogant? So he made you angry and you then hit him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, it was not that he made me angry.  He was angry.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It's so easy.  You talk to the man, he gets angry, you take a sjambok and you hit him.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I didn't do this, because I was angry.  He was angry and he said, "Nieuwoudt, you prove it".

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: "Nieuwoudt, you prove it".  Was it an insult to you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If a man gets angry, is it an insult to you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, was there any cause for you to assault him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: He didn't want to talk and because of the information that he didn't want to give to me so that there could be an end to the boycott.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'm going to proceed, same page, same paragraph.
"I then took a black plastic sjambok and I gave him several lashes over his legs and his body."
How many lashes?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: If I can guess, it might have been six to eight.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Eight lashes?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I think it would have been six to eight, somewhere there. I didn't count.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did he have his clothes on?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, he was.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So you would have had to give him very severe lashes?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It's a black plastic sjambok.  It's not a very heavy one, it's black, it's the colour black.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was it the first time that you used this sjambok?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I used it previously during a situation where we had dispersed people at a school.  I think I said it was at Insokelele.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The second time was on Mr Jack?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'm going to mention names to you.  If you remember these names, we will then ask other questions. Do you remember the names of Tango Lemani.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I remember.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was Tango Lemani assaulted by you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you remember Kgogsile, Cicil Orlyn?

CHAIRPERSON: Orlyn, Mr Mpshe?  How do you spell that name?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: K-G-O-G-S-I-L-E -  Cicil and the surname is Orlyn - O-R-L-Y-N.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You said that you remember this name.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Is that the Rev Orlyn?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It is just written that you assaulted him at Humansdorp.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you remember Ernest Malgas?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was he also assaulted by you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Am I fast, Mr Chairman, Member of the Committee?

CHAIRPERSON: Pardon.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I was checking whether am I fast?

CHAIRPERSON: No.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you remember the name Stembele Slovobona?