Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR STEPHENS: Well he was the last person to stop firing.  I can't exactly say when the last time I saw him.  When he was picking up his bullets and then he went back into the ANC building, that's the last time I saw him.  Picking up bullets, picking up the cartridges that the empty, empty cartridges, and there was somebody else helping him pick them up as well.

MR DORFLING: By that time the fire from the gentleman with the handgun had ceased, is that right?

MR STEPHENS: Yes.  Like I said, the guy with the AK or the assault rifle, he was the last guy to shoot, that I noticed shooting anyway.

MR DORFLING: Did you look at where these people went to after the shooting ceased?

MR STEPHENS: Well they basically all went back towards the entrance of Shell House, and some of them actually stayed around there as well.  I can't say how many went inside and how many stayed behind, but they were in that vicinity.  But the guy with the - the security guard that had the rifle, I saw him go back inside Shell House.

MR DORFLING: Did you actually see him entering the building?

MR STEPHENS: No, I can't say I did, but he went in that direction, and that's the last I saw of him.

MR DORFLING: Mr Stephens, as far as the positioning of the crowd is concerned after the shooting, what happened to the injured and the dead people, where were they positioned with relation to the block of King George Street between Plein and De Villiers?

MR STEPHENS: Well the people I saw were all on the westerly direction on the corner of De Villiers and King George, basically were all behind that one car.  That's the only injured people I really saw.

MR DORFLING: If witnesses before this Committee were to say that, and specifically ANC guards, were to say that they believed at the time when the shooting commenced that there was an attack on either the life or the property of Shell House, what would your comment be to that?

MR STEPHENS: Not a chance, noways.  Because the entrance of Shell House is on the southern side of Plein Street, and they were a good 50/60 metres away, and on the wrong side of the road as well, it was around the corner.  So I would not say - I'd say that would be totally untrue.  I actually phoned the Citizen the next day because what they had reported in the papers, I - but then the journalist phoned me back and she said that she would come see me the next day, but then the next day she didn't come so I phoned them up and they said no, that she had suddenly taken leave, so that was the last of it.  Because I actually - I couldn't believe what I actually read in the papers, because I was there, I actually saw it.

MR DORFLING: Mr Stephens, did you see any firearms at the time of the security guard shooting on automatic fire, did you see at that stage any firearms amongst the marchers?

MR STEPHENS: Unfortunately the marchers were too far away from me, they were on the other side of De Villiers Street, so I couldn't see from there.  So whether they did have or didn't, I can't say.

MR DORFLING: At the time when the shooting commenced, or throughout the time when the shooting was in progress, did you take cognisance of - or was there, do you know, was there any shots fired from your direction in the immediate vicinity of Nando's in the direction of the crowd?  I'm talking on the business - your business side of the street.

MR STEPHENS: ...(indistinct) ja.  I never heard any shots except for that ANC security guard who had the assault rifle.  That was the only shot that I heard from that side, or any shot at that stage.  If there were any shots from the northern side, I never heard them.

MR DORFLING: I've got no further questions, thank you Mr Chair.  	Mr Stephens, just one question, before the guard with the AK47 fired a shot, that is now from the corner at King George and Plein Street, did you hear any other shots?

MR STEPHENS: No, I didn't.

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Stephens.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.  Good morning Mr Stephens.

MR STEPHENS: Good morning Mr Berger, how are you?

MR BERGER: I'm very well thank you.

MR STEPHENS: Good to hear.

MR BERGER: Mr Stephens, according to your evidence at the inquest and according to your evidence today, and according to the statement that you made, there was absolutely no reason for the guards to have shot, and in your view this was, to use your words "cold-blooded murder", is that correct?

MR STEPHENS: That's correct.  From the position that I was in, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And you were in a very good position to observe exactly what was going on that day, am I correct?

MR STEPHENS: I was in a good position to see what the guard did, but besides that I probably was not in the best position.

MR BERGER: Well, you were in your shop from 08H00 that morning until after the shooting incident occurred, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: You were conducting business at your shop that morning, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: There wasn't much business because the streets were relatively deserted in that area of time, correct?

MR STEPHENS: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You observed groups of marchers moving past and you've already told the Committee what happened with one group of marchers that you saw.

MR STEPHENS: That was the only group - the only marchers that I saw, the rest were just individuals moving up towards their destination that they had to go to.  It was only one march that I actually saw some of the marchers.

MR BERGER: You never saw any marchers in front of Shell House performing mock attacks on the guards stationed at the entrance to Shell House?

MR STEPHENS: If there was, I think it would have been individuals, because I didn't see a big group of people as such.

MR BERGER: Did you see a smaller group of marchers, not as big as the group that was coming down King George, engaged in mock attacks on the guards at the entrance to Shell House in Plein Street?

MR STEPHENS: I can't say I do recall, unfortunately not.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR STEPHENS: I can't remember that to be specifically, but what I did see outside the shop was one or two - that's why I said individuals.  There were one or two guys with knobkierries and that, and there were some - just walkers-by, and they would you know, sort of half go for them and then just carry on - say something to them and then carry on.  That's why I say it could have happened, because I did see that, but on the Shell House, at the entrance itself, I can't recall.

MR BERGER: Marchers would "half go" for whom?

MR STEPHENS: Just basically people walking in the street, whether they were ANC or not I'm not sure - making mock attacks at them. ...(tape ends)
	Okay, say for example he's standing over here and he's walking this way and I'm walking that way I'd go like that with a knobkierrie and carry on, and maybe say something to him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you are saying ...(inaudible)

MR STEPHENS: Mock attacks, that's correct.  But on an individual basis that I saw, it might be one or two people in groups, and I saw that maybe two occasions, maybe three.

MR BERGER: I'm talking about mock attacks on the guards stationed at the entrance to Shell House in Plein Street.

MR STEPHENS: I know that's why I said, there unfortunately I can't say.  I can't say it did or it did not happen.

MR BERGER: You never saw it?

MR STEPHENS: I never saw it.

MR BERGER: You also never heard any shots being fired before the ANC guard opened fire with an AK47, is that correct?

MR STEPHENS: That is correct.

MR BERGER: We know that shots were fired earlier that morning, shortly before this incident from marchers who were in a westerly direction down Plein Street, towards Wanderers Street, you never heard that?

MR STEPHENS: I never did.

MR BERGER: We know that a shot was fired in the immediate vicinity of your shop shortly before the main shooting incident, you never heard that?