Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

MR STOFILE: Thank you Chairperson I'm indebted.
	There's some aspects that have already been covered, I'm just going, passing over them, if you can just bear with me?
	You are saying that at all material times the interrogation was carried in your presence?  In the case of Matoti, who was present when the time he was interrogated.  Let's start from here, who fetched him from the place of work?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Can I please be allowed to tell the story, the entire story and you ask me questions thereafter?

MR STOFILE: I would rather you answer the question so that we are able to - you know as I ask you otherwise I might miss you.  Can you just tell me who went to fetch Matoti at this place of work on the 16th February 1987?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That's myself and Sgt Nkunkwana.

MR STOFILE: Who remained in the car?  When you had gone into his - in her offices?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: The two of us went there but I cannot remember who was left in the car.

MR STOFILE: Let me remind you.  There was somebody who appeared to be a victim of some kind or a prisoner who remained in the car.  You don't remember that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No I cannot recall that person.

MR STOFILE: Anyway, there's a person who was the third one, he remained inside the car whilst you went inside, the two of you.  Then you came back with Mrs Matoti and then the other witness pretended to Matoti as if she was - he was also a prisoner you know and then one of you was harsh on that prisoner, you know, in the way you responded to what he was saying at the time.  You don't remember that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: There was no need for us to pretend because she was not going to do anything as we did need have to be tricky by hiding people in the cars.  We knew what we were going to question her about and we were fully aware that she was not armed.  There was no need to be in the pretence.

MR STOFILE: No, no, I don't want to be misunderstood.  The point I'm making, you wanted to get information in a skilful way from her so that the other person pretended as if she was on her side and actually that person said she was sent by Tembile to her but she has never done that and she pretended if she was also - he was also arrested.  You don't remember that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I do not know that, all I know is that we took Mrs Matoti to the office and we tortured her.

MR STOFILE: Those are the instructions of my client.  The next thing, when you went to arrest Mrs Matoti what information did you have about you know, that caused you to have her arrested?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: We had heard that her brother, Lucky, normally sometimes visits her.

MR STOFILE: And who told you that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: By the informers.

MR STOFILE: We want the names, who are those informers?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: It is very difficult to remember all our informants, perhaps you were one of them but unaware that you told me but that makes one a contact as we normally chat together, perhaps you might release information unaware.  Perhaps you are even one of those people, that's why it's very difficult to say about people who told me information because I did not have a register.

CHAIRPERSON: So I think we can perhaps distinguish here, Mr Stofile, between informants, that is people who they casually extract information from and people who don't realise they're giving information to the police as opposed to informers who are people who are paid by the police to give information.  So perhaps if you could distinguish between informers and informants in this regard?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Can you tell us whether the person who gave you the information was an informer or an informant?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand that?  An informer we regard as being a person who regularly supplies information to the police in return for some favour, usually the payment of money and an informant is somebody who you mentioned is, they might not even know that they're giving the police information, it just comes out of casual conversation?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: We were using the informants meaning the people that we would chat to because I did not have any registered informer.  I think I can call those informants.  A person would tell you something unaware that you are going to use that information somewhere else by just chatting and then you take that information and make use of it.

MR STOFILE: Do you know the name of that informant?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No.

MR STOFILE: You don't know?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No.

MR STOFILE: You know what is strange to me, puzzles me that you go a full distance to arrest a person in terms of Section 47(1), you don't know the person who gave you the information so that you can check information after interrogation.  What do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: First of all if you read these documents properly among my mandates was to go and pay a visit to the political activists.  Sometimes we wouldn't pay them visits directly, we'd visit the neighbours, visit their work places and get information concerning that particular person then we would use that information.  My task was to surveil political activists therefore it will be extremely difficult for me to say who gave me the information.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: My instructions are that you took an active role in assaulting clients and making decisions even on the spur of the moment.  What to do with Mrs Matoti, you know, as how like when you felt he must be dished into the forest and killed.  You made those decisions on the spot and persuaded by others not to do that?  As such you should have ...(intervention)

MR DUKADA: Mr Chairperson, the question is unduly long.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think if you could just - I'm not quite sure what I get the gist of the question.

MR STOFILE: I'll rephrase it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR STOFILE: Thank you Sir.  My instructions is that you took an active and a chief role in the arrest and detention of Ms - what do you say to that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: You were told something that is not true.

MR STOFILE: Are you suggesting that you were not participating in assaulting her and you took an active part in doing that?

MR LAX: Sorry, with respect, just hold on.  You see, you did the jump here from the arrest to suddenly to the assault and you haven't had an answer to the assault yet, you've only had an answer to the arrest.

MR STOFILE: As the Chair pleases.  You took a part in the arrest because you actually passed there from work?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct, I would like the Committee to protect me here because a lot of subjects are combined in one question therefore it confuses me therefore I would like to ask for protection.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, if you could just ask one question at a time Mr Stofile?

MR STOFILE: As the Chair pleases.  So now you are - you now agree, did you make a mistake when you denied it earlier on that you didn't take part in the arrest of Mrs Matoti?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I told you that myself and Nkunkwana went to arrest Mrs Matoti.  Yes I played a role.

MR STOFILE: From there what happened?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: We took her to the security offices in Norwood.

MR STOFILE: Who assaulted Mrs Matoti at the security office at Norwood?