Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MS PATEL: I thank you Chairperson.

MR DORFLING: Thank you Honourable Chair. May I beg leave to call as a witness on behalf of the objectors, Mr Jimmy Stephens.  I have prepared a bundle of - that contains the statements of the witnesses which we intend leading on behalf of the objectors and some other documents which we would like to refer to for purposes of argument.  May I beg leave to hand this up to the honourable Committee.  It has got an index and it's paginated for purposes of reference Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DORFLING: I would think so Mr Chair.  Unfortunately I don't know where we've come to.

CHAIRPERSON: Provisionally we'll mark this as Exhibit E.  I'm advised that this will be E, but if it transpires that we will have to change it then we will do that.

MR DORFLING: As the Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair may I just indicate before we commence with this witness, the witness has indicated to me that he is employed with a specific business concern, he does not wish the specific concern's identity to be disclosed for obvious reasons.  May I beg leave for that not to be disclosed for record purposes?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) unless something material turns on it.

MR DORFLING: I don't believe so.  I have canvassed that with the representatives for the applicants, there doesn't seem to be any difficulty with that.

MR STEPHENS: (Duly sworn in, states)

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair, I would just like to indicate to the witness that the microphone in front of you, Mr Stephens, should be activated by yourself.  If you speak, just press the red button.  Once you've finished, just press the grey button for it to be switched off.
	Mr Stephens, on the 28th of March 1994 you were the Manager of a business concern situated at the corners of King George and Plein Streets, is that correct?

MR STEPHENS: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING: Your business was actually situated right at the corner of those two streets, and the windows had a view overlooking King George Street in a northerly direction, is that correct?

MR STEPHENS: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: What time did you arrive at work that morning?

MR STEPHENS: It must have been about 08H00, roundabout there.

MR DORFLING: Just for purposes of background, prior to that day, had you ever seen marches of Zulu people gathering in and around the centre of Johannesburg?

MR STEPHENS: Yes I have.

MR DORFLING: How many times had you experienced it before that day?

MR STEPHENS: Well I'm not exactly sure, but marches used to happen on a continuous basis in the Johannesburg area, but IFP marches, I can't recall exactly how many.

MR DORFLING: Can you please relate to the Committee what you saw on the day of the 28th of March 1994?  Can we take it from the time you started, and I would just like you to refer with specific reference to the marchers that you saw, what were your experiences that day?

MR STEPHENS: Okay, there were previous marches in the morning.  There was - I remember one specific one which was a fairly small march, where they actually walked down Plein Street in a easterly direction past the Shell House entrance.  There was a small group of Inkatha marchers, they were escorted by Police.  There were ANC - well I take it that they were ANC people because they had guns, they were waving them at the marchers that walked past.  There was one ...(intervention)

MR DORFLING: Can I just interrupt you there.  Then you say you take it that they were ANC people, what brought you under that impression?

MR STEPHENS: Because earlier on they were all gathered outside the ANC - outside Shell House entrance, and they were chatting with one another.  When the Inkatha marchers came past, they walked up to the side of the road to where they were - almost like approached them, and anyway, they were waving their arms around as well as the one or two guys that waved hand-pistols.  And then the one - there was one biggish Inkatha guy, he looked like he was a steward or one of the guys that kept them in control or so, he actually pointed to the Policemen, saying to them that there were guys, that obviously were antagonising them - well it looked that way, it was from a distance, but he pointed it out to him.

MR DORFLING: And this big gentleman you're referring to, was he amongst a specific group in particular?

MR STEPHENS: Well he was part of the Inkatha march.

MR DORFLING: And after that had been pointed out to the Police, what transpired then?

MR STEPHENS: Well nothing much, the guys moved back a little bit and the march just continued on peacefully with no other incidents happening.

MR DORFLING: Can we just get the direction in which that marchers were moving?

MR STEPHENS: The march went along Plein Street from a westerly to an easterly direction.

MR DORFLING: At what time did this approximately take place?

MR STEPHENS: It could have been between 09H00 and 10H00, somewhere around there.

MR DORFLING: So these marchers passed in your field of view from, as you're standing in your business, from your left to your right.  Is that right?

MR STEPHENS: That's correct, ja.  Within - it's about 20/30 metres, it's right in front of the shop.

MR DORFLING: Yes, what happened after that?

MR STEPHENS: Well then they marched off.  During the day there was - well during the rest of the time before the main march there were Inkatha guys walking around with their weapons, one or two - mostly one at a time, and they were all walking up towards Noord Street in that direction, and some were going towards the ...(indistinct), so I'm not sure if they knew exactly where to meet, but they were all moving up in a northerly direction.

MR DORFLING: You say they had their weapons, what do you mean with "they had their weapons"?

MR STEPHENS: Knobkierries and sticks, that's the main thing that I saw.

MR DORFLING: Did you see any firearms amongst these people?

MR STEPHENS: No not myself personally.

MR DORFLING: Yes you may continue, what happened after that?

MR STEPHENS: Well then - I think it before 12 some time, I'm not sure exactly of the time, - well it was probably about 11, somewhere around there that I actually saw all these guards that were previously part of the Shell House incident.  They were just gathering outside the entrance itself.  And then afterwards I saw the - when the crowd really started building up at Noord Street there, then I saw this one ANC guard come out with a - which I thought was an AK47, sit next to a pillar and he kneeled down, and he was aiming towards them and ...(intervention)

MR DORFLING: Can we just take it slowly Mr Stephens.  Where did this gentleman come from, where did you see him for the first time?

MR STEPHENS: Well I was looking at the marchers itself, and I just happened to look over towards the ANC headquarters at the entrance of Shell House, and I saw the guy coming down with the rifle - well say in the last 5 or 10 metres I just saw him come with the rifle, and then he ...(intervention)

MR DORFLING: And where did he position himself?

MR STEPHENS: It was - there's two pillars on the side - on the easterly side of King George Street, on the corner of Plein, and he just - first of all he stood there, and when the marchers ...(intervention)

MR DORFLING: Sorry, is that the corners of King George and Plein?

MR STEPHENS: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: On the easterly side of the King George Street of the intersection?

MR STEPHENS: That's right, on the Shell House side.

MR DORFLING: Next to the Shell House pillars, so to speak?

MR STEPHENS: That's correct.  And anyway, then he knelt down as if he was gonna shoot at them ...(intervention)

MR DORFLING: Okay, can we just concentrate on the marchers that you saw at that point in time, where were they at that point in time?