Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-21

MR KAHANOVITZ: Can I just clarify, this what Mr van Zyl refers to as the second "in-house", was your understanding that the Co-ordinator would attend those meetings?  This is what Mr van Zyl says?  You see, he says here at the second "in-house", in other words he says Verster, Basson and Webb would attend that meeting?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Could we just get the page number please?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I can only answer by saying that it was possibly Mr van Zyl's, his supposition and the assumption he made during his training.  I think Mr Basson would be able to give a better answer to this question, because I was not once present at such an "in-house" with the Chairman for authorisation.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Sorry, carry on, you hadn't finished your sentence.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Therefore I cannot give a clear answer and say "yes, the Co-ordinator was present", because as far as I am concerned, the authorisations which were given, were in most cases a discussion between the Chairman and the Managing Director and from the Managing Director, to myself.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see, I don't recall any one of the lawyers representing Gen Webb or Col Verster, putting to Mr van Zyl, after he gave his evidence, that his description of what happens at the second "in-house", is wrong?
	If what he says is correct, then obviously Mr Basson can tell us exactly what happened at those meetings?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I think he can.  I was not present where the Chairman was present.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But surely you would have some recollection as to what was happening on the ground at the time, because if the question had arisen "well, what was Webb's attitude to the Early Learning Centre", you could have asked that question of either Basson or of Verster if both of them went to that meeting, correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well, did you ever discuss with Mr ...

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't understand the question, could you please rephrase the question?

MR KAHANOVITZ: If both Basson and Verster went to meetings with the Chairman to hear whether final approval had been obtained, you would have been in a position to ask either Basson or Verster what had transpired at those meetings, correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, but I don't know if Basson was there or not.

MR KAHANOVITZ: All right.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if I may just intervene.  Did you ever have occasion while you were at the CCB, of ever talking of doing business with the Chairperson?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Chairperson, on one occasion, I think it was in January 1989 or February, early February, it was just after Gen Webb took command from Gen Joubert, I informed him on an occasion about Region 6, what Region 6 consisted of and at that stage I explained our blue plans to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, when it came to recruiting some of your former colleagues from Brixton Murder and Robbery into the CCB, the sequence of events as I understand, was that, maybe you can clarify it, did you apply to join Special Forces or did Special Forces ask you to join them?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I applied.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You were then approached by Verster and this is before contact has been made with van Zyl et al, and he asked you whether you are interested in becoming involved in the CCB, is that correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Who?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Verster?  Joe Verster?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He approached you?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He didn't?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I approached him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You approached him and asked him if you could join the CCB?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, Special Forces.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Right, but when was the issue of the CCB first raised?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: At the meeting afterwards, with Verster.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Right.  And what did he tell you?  What did he tell you about the CCB?  He could hardly tell you about what the CCB does, until he has had some indication from you as to whether you were sufficiently interested in joining?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: He knew that I was serious, because from March 1988 I started discussing with him, and it was only in June 1988 that I joined officially.
	So there were several discussions between Verster and myself.  At one stage he informed me about the secret organisation and that I must not talk about it, it was a covert operation.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You will agree with me that as regards recruiting other former policemen to join the CCB, you could hardly bring somebody along to the training course, explain to them what the CCB does, and then have the situation where that person turns around and says to you "well, now that I have heard what it is that you do, I am not interested any more"?  You would have to be fairly certain that the person was willing to do this kind of work?  Correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: On what basis did you form the impression that van Zyl, Botha and Maree were suitable candidates?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I knew them respectively on a work basis.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Right, and you would agree with me that it would be fairly  useless to recruit somebody who would not be willing to kill?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No Mr Chairperson, on their records as police officers and investigation officers and their ability to work well, they did very well under the intelligence structures, I did not chose them on the basis that this guy has the ability to kill somebody.  We worked indirectly at the CCB, you don't do it yourself.
	If like you mention, I did not need somebody who had the ability to kill.  As long as he had the ability to plan and think clearly and that we could trust him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Burger, you would agree with me, there are people who are not prepared to commit crimes?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: One hundred percent.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You could hardly have someone go along to the training course, be  told what the CCB is going to do and then that person says "well, actually, I am not the kind of person who is willing to commit a crime"?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: You see, I think this goes with my previous explanation, people I chose were people who might have had the same patriotic feelings about the Afrikaner, the State, the protection of the security of the whites, the Afrikaner.  That was important to them.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Burger, I hope you are not seriously suggesting that every single patriotic Afrikaner at that time, was the kind of person who was willing to commit crimes?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, you asked me why I chose them.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, and you gave me an answer to say well, they had a similar background to you, and in your evidence-in-chief you stressed that your background was that which led you to become a patriotic Afrikaner nationalist, which is why I put the question to you in that form.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, and of course because they worked with me at Brixton Murder and Robbery.

MR KAHANOVITZ: One might have hoped you would have inferred from the fact that people were policemen, that they might be the kind of people who would in fact obey the law, and not break it?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Well, with hindsight, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Just on this issue of "we must understand the times".  You will recall in your evidence you said that "look, we must remember what it was like at that time.  At that time there was a State of Emergency going on, the State had to fight fire with fire", is that correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.