Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-09-14

MS CAMBANIS: And is it not correct that a large part of the motivation here is based on religious sentiment of the AWB?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MS CAMBANIS: And just in summary, that pertains only, as the Chairperson has pointed out, not to language but to white Afrikaners?  It is between God and white Afrikaners only.

MR SMIT: That's correct.

MS CAMBANIS: Sir, Mr Koekemoer who gave evidence at your trial, did you know him before?  I know he was at the meeting with you, but did you know him before those meetings?

MR SMIT: I met him the evening when we arrived at Jan de Wet's farm.

MS CAMBANIS: And what did you know about his background, if anything?

MR SMIT: All that I knew is what I heard at the game farm, that he had something to do with explosives at some or other mine.

MS CAMBANIS: Do you perhaps know whether he trained anyone in the use of explosives?

MR SMIT: No.

MS CAMBANIS: When did you first find out that he was a police informer?

MR SMIT: In the hearing.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Nico Prinsloo, was he present throughout - were you present throughout your trial, firstly?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Nico Prinsloo, was he present throughout the trial?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MS CAMBANIS: Can I just have one moment please?  Now Sir, according to your evidence, a large part of the police force was supportive of the AWB's constitution or what actually is your evidence, a large of the police were supporters of what?

MR SMIT: They were supporters of the right-wing.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR SMIT: I wouldn't say only the AWB, when I speak about the right-wing I mean the AWB and the Volksfront.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you belong only to the AWB?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Then how would you know that there were policemen who were supporters of other right-wing organisations?

MR SMIT: It was mentioned during meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: By whom?

MR SMIT: By Eugene Terreblanche amongst others.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you believe everything that Mr Terreblanche said?

MR SMIT: At that stage yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And now?

MR SMIT: No.

MS CAMBANIS: Did you know whether any of the members present at Koesterfontein or at the game farm were currently at that time members of the police force, South African Police at that time?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MS CAMBANIS: Who were they?

MR SMIT: There was a set of twin brothers by the name of Coetzee.  I'm not sure if they were twins, I know that they were involved with the permanent forces.

MS CAMBANIS: Sorry, that means they were active members of the South African Police at that time. And what was their role in the planning, the execution of these bombings?

MR SMIT: They didn't have any definitive role, they were there as the other members were there.

MS CAMBANIS: And as the other members, they knew about the planning of these bombs?

MR SMIT: That's correct, after the meeting on the stoep of the game farm.

MS CAMBANIS: Now Sir, did you know anything about any contact between any of these groupings and sections of the police at the time, April '94?

MR SMIT: Which contact do you mean?

MS CAMBANIS: Well, would the Coetzee "tweeling", would they have been there in their, in what capacity would they have been there at the farm?  As police people?

MR SMIT: No, both of them were trained by me in the Ystergarde.

MS CAMBANIS: Now Sir, the Bree Street bomb for example, was just a couple of days before the election.  At that time there was very tight police security in and around the main centres, do you agree with that?  Do you recall that?

MR SMIT: Yes, that's correct.

MS CAMBANIS: Is there any reason why the plans went ahead with no fear of detection, roadblocks or so on by the police, that you can tell this Committee?  If you know.  If you don't know it's ...

MR SMIT: We knew about the risk but the work had to be done.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you very much Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

MR LANDMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Smit, why did Nico Prinsloo want the 4 x 4's?

MR SMIT: Firstly, when we were on the game farm there were many dirt roads, it was a very difficult terrain to move over in normal vehicles and that is why we needed the 4 x 4 vehicles.

MR LANDMAN: No that's in the "eerste plek", were there any other reasons?

MR SMIT: No.

MR LANDMAN: Was there any intention of building bombs in these 4 x 4 vehicles?

MR SMIT: No.

MR LANDMAN: How far was the game farm the AWB headquarters, in kilometres?

MR SMIT: I'm not certain how far it was, approximately 50 to 80 kilometres.

MR LANDMAN: And how long does it take to drive there, to Ventersdorp from the game farm?

MR SMIT: 45 minutes.

MR LANDMAN: And how many times did Mr Prinsloo, that Sunday, the Sunday that you were on the game farm, how often did he make that trip?

MR SMIT: I can't answer that.

MR LANDMAN: More than once?

MR SMIT: I doubt it.

MR LANDMAN: Do you think it was only once?

MR SMIT: It could be so.

MR LANDMAN: When he came back from that trip did he tell you where he had been?

MR SMIT: Not to me personally.

MR LANDMAN: Did he tell you as a group?

MR SMIT: Not that I can remember.

MR LANDMAN: Did anybody ask him where he had been?

MR SMIT: Not that I can remember.

MR LANDMAN: Did he tell you what his instructions were from the AWB headquarters?

MR SMIT: No.

MR LANDMAN: Did he go into town alone?

MR SMIT: There was one occasion, I can't remember on which day, that he and General van der Merwe went together.

MR LANDMAN: Was that on the Sunday?

MR SMIT: I can't remember.

MR LANDMAN: Did Nico Prinsloo ever admit that he knew anything about the Bree Street bomb?

MR SMIT: Not to me.

MR LANDMAN: Thank you, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LANDMAN

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you Mr Chair, there's just one or two matters.
	Mr Smit, as I understand you were part of the leadership on the game farm, is that correct?

MR SMIT: Yes, I was in control of the guards.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And when Prinsloo arrived there and the meeting was held behind closed doors, you were part of that meeting?

MR SMIT: That's the correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And that was the first time that you heard that you were to plant bombs or set bombs off?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So as part of leadership, you heard for the first time on Sunday evening the 24th?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: At that stage did Nico Prinsloo tell you anything about the Bree Street bomb which had taken place earlier that day?

MR SMIT: No.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Would you agree with me that Mr Terreblanche, on the video which we watched, clearly indicated what the AWB had done in the past, that is what they had done, that's how many people, they'd attacked this, they'd done that, but during the meeting, the closed meeting of Sunday evening absolutely no mention was made of the Bree Street bombing?

MR SMIT: Not that I can remember.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: However you were there?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You said that you resided in Vereeniging, Vanderbijlpark?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That was part of the old area?

MR SMIT: That's correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: How long did you live there?

MR SMIT: Four years.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And before that?

MR SMIT: Pretoria.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So therefore you knew the PWV area?

MR SMIT: Yes, that's correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You knew where Commissioner Street was in Johannesburg?

MR SMIT: No.  I know about the street but I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly where it is.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Commissioner Street.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Therefore you wouldn't know where Bree Street is?

MR SMIT: I know about the street but I don't know how to get there.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Where is Bree Street?

MR SMIT: It's behind the Supreme Court.