Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-16

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: What I can explain to the Committee, is that my family died because of me because I am the one who was being sought after as a leader of the PAC in that area.

ADV SIGODI: But I mean if you didn't stay very long with your family, if you had no fixed residence, why would they be killed because of you if you would stay for say 2 or 5 days at a time?  Why would they be killed because of you?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: As my family that is where I used to go.  I can say that was my home.

ADV SIGODI: So, what I fail to understand is why didn't you take an interest to find out who was responsible for killing your family, because when you were being cross-examined by the evidence leader you didn't seem to know who had been charged for killing your family?  If you regarded them as home, as your family, why did you not take an interest to find out who was responsible for killing them?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: What I'll explain is that it was clear to me was that I am the person who was being sought after, and unfortunately they found the wrong people.

ADV SIGODI: But you didn't even know who was charged in connection with the killing of your family?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I cannot say because what I heard was just from people and I did not know it for a fact because I had not seen the people doing the act.  But if you did not see the person it is difficult to say that they did indeed commit the act.

ADV SIGODI: But surely, I mean from the answer that you gave to Mr Mapoma here, you didn't seem to know that the deceased had been charged.  I don't know if I've got that correctly, I'm subject to correction.  You didn't seem to know that the deceased had been charged in connection with the killing of your family.

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I do not understand the question.

ADV SIGODI: You said that it was hearsay, you didn't know who had been charged in connection with the killing of your family.

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: That is correct.  I just heard about it.

ADV SIGODI: But don't you think a reasonable person would have - if you thought that the person who killed your family was really after you, wouldn't a reasonable person have tried all means to find out who killed the family so that I can know who is the person who is trying to attack me?  Wouldn't that be a reasonable response?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Even if you could have tried to find that information it would have been difficult.  Even the police have difficulty in identifying suspects in such cases.  Therefore it would have been difficult for me to start looking for a person I did not know.  But I just thought that whoever had committed these acts, because there was conflict in the township between ANC and PAC members.  Therefore I thought my family had been killed because they were looking for me because of this conflict between the ANC and PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: Questions, Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.  Mr Sibiya, when was this home burnt down which resulted in the killing of your family members?  When did it happen?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: It was 1990, although I cannot remember the month correctly.

MR LAX: You see, your uncle, in his evidence at the trial, said it was on the 27th of February 1990.  27th of February 1990, that was his evidence.  You wouldn't dispute that, would you?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: No, I wouldn't dispute it.

MR LAX: After all it was his house, he would know?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: That is correct.

MR LAX: Now, you told us in your evidence earlier that after you got back from the Transkei and you started recruiting people, that's when all this trouble started and people's houses started getting burnt down.  Do you remember that's what you told us?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: As I explained before, this was happening already and when I returned I found out that it was still continuing, that is the attack on PAC members.  That was when I started recruiting members.

MR LAX: Well, you see, that wasn't your evidence just earlier.  Your evidence was that when you came back you heard about these things happening and you began recruiting and the pressure got more, and people didn't like the fact that you were recruiting for the PAC and you were then seen as a ring leader and then you started being targeted, and that's why your relatives were targeted.  That was your evidence.

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I think that throughout history the PAC in ... (intervention)

MR LAX: Please, let's not talk about history, just answer my question.  It's a simple matter.  You told us in your evidence that it was only after you came back from the Transkei that you began recruiting etcetera, and as a result of that you became a target, and as a result of that your family members were killed and their house burnt down.  However, this happened before you went to the Transkei.  Just explain this for us please, it's really quite simple.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, maybe I stand corrected by the Committee.  I don't remember saying that the family was attacked after he came back from Transkei.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I seem to recall that he was saying that he was of the view that the reason why his family was attacked was because of his position of leadership in the area.  I'm not clear whether he had placed a specific time period on that or not.  So, I assume if this is of any moment then I suppose we'll have to consult the record just to see if you disagree with ...(intervention)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I don't disagree that his family was attacked, but I'm talking about the time frame.  In his evidence it transpired during cross-examination that it's not true that your family was attacked and he agreed.  Then the evidence leader continued asking him about that.  But it was not put as to what - actually at what did it happen.  Was it before you came back from Transkei or before you went to Transkei.

MR LAX: It may be that I'm wrong.  So, I won't push it too hard.  The record will speak for itself later when we read it, and if this issue is important enough we'll consult it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what does seem to be a fact is that the attack upon the family of Mr Sibiya happened on the 27th of February 1990 and that this incident that we are seized with happened something like 2 years and 8 months later, on the 27th of October 1992.  Those two facts seems to be quite clear at this stage.
	So there seems to have been quite a time lapse between the attack on the family and the attack on the deceased in this matter, which I think was the point that your client tried to make about if it was a revenge he would have acted more promptly.  I mean that's what he was trying to tell us.  But in any case, I mean that seems to be clear on what is before us here.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I will ... (inaudible).  Thank you.

MR LAX: You see, on page 9, what did you mean by these words
"So I was the next victim to be attacked as a result of three of my family were burnt in their shack."
What did you mean by that answer?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: As I explained before, I was speaking in isiZulu when I answered this question and this person who was assisting me wrote in English.  So I cannot be certain what he indeed wrote on the form.  It's the same thing as is happening here, that we are communicating in isiZulu and English.

MR LAX: Well, what answer were you trying to give there that he wrote down?  That's all I'm asking you.  I'm just trying to understand what answer you intended giving that he wrote down?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I will request the Committee to explain the question in isiZulu so that I can respond to it.