Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-10

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: I followed these people and subsequently shot the deceased the aim being to get back the money they had taken from the shop as well as the watch which they took from Ndlandla Ngala and I wanted to tell them to take these things back but they could not because as I was talking to them, one of them reached for the firearm and I started shooting.

MR SHAKOANE: In what capacity did you do that?  I mean in what capacity?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: I didn't do this for myself, I was defending the community.

MR SHAKOANE: Defending the community in your capacity as what?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: I was defending the community myself as a member of the SDU.

MR SHAKOANE: Now what happened after the shooting?

CHAIRPERSON: In relation to what, Mr Shakoane?

MR SHAKOANE: In relation to the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Arrest?

MR SHAKOANE: The deceased yes, Madame and man.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, won't you just try and lead him because you know that's a very elastic question, he's likely to give you the evidence you don't want him to tell you.  Just try and be specific in your leading question.

MR SHAKOANE: Yes, after the shooting did you arrest any of the persons of going near to the deceased?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: May the question please be repeated?

MR SHAKOANE: Let me rephrase the question.  When the shooting occurred you said it was because one of the people who you say robbed the shop was reaching for his firearm and you wanted to recover the money which they took from the shop and from the people, the question is after the shooting then, what did you do, did you arrest or check for the money from the people?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Thank you.  After shooting this person, I did not take anything from them, I went home and I spent about three days at home and no police were coming to my home to question me about the incident and I concluded that I was no longer safe because had I stayed home the other Toaster Gang members as well as the IFP members would come for me and kill me and I decided to leave for Kwandabele.

MR SHAKOANE: Just to take you a little back.  Were the people that robbed the shop including the deceased, did you know if they were members of the gang in the township or a political organisation?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Honestly speaking, as I explained earlier on that Ndlandla came to me to tell me that these males were members of the Toaster Gang.  I did not know they were members of the Toaster Gang but I understood and I accepted that they were because of the manner in which they went around wielding their firearms and the manner in which people scattered each time they appeared.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just interrupt here please Mr Shakoane?  Could you tell me Mr Seshaba, you made mention and unfortunately my notes are not quite clear.  Did you say that the Toaster Gang were staying in that particular section?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Which section did they stay in?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: As I explained earlier on that the Toaster Gang resided at Mtambia Section and they were terrorising the community at the section and when they Mtambia Section formed SDUs they fled the hostel.

ADV BOSMAN: What I would like to clear up, in what section did this incident of the shooting take place?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: The shooting incident happened at Sangweni Section.

ADV BOSMAN: And how far is this from Tabega Section?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: They are not far apart, these sections are not far apart but by this time these gang members were residing at Vusumosi Hostel.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, you may proceed Mr Shakoane.

MR SHAKOANE: Thank you Madame.  The ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose?  Emanating from the question put by your legal representative do I understand you to be saying you did not know the persons that you subsequently followed after they had been pointed out to you by Ndlandla Ngala?  You didn't know them by sight?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: No I had not seen them before but I knew that there were Toaster Gangs in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: The reason why I'm asking that is because as you will know that during your criminal trial there was one Vincent Majola who alleged that he was your brother-in-law?  You recall that evidence being given by Vincent Majola during your criminal trial?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes I remember that evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he amongst the people that were pointed out by Ndlandla Ngala and that you subsequently followed?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: Yes that is correct because when I left the homestead as Vincent Majola was standing at the gate these people were drinking liquor and I went straight to the deceased, Boy Buthelezi.  He saw me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't think you've actually understood my question.  My question is was Vincent Majola one of the three persons pointed out to you by Ndlandla as having been members of the Toaster Gang and as having been persons who were suspected of having robbed him of his watch and of having committed some kind of robbery in that shopping centre?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: No, Vincent Majola was not a member of the Toaster Gang, he was an ordinary resident.

CHAIRPERSON: I know that, what I want to know is was he one of the three persons that you followed who were pointed out to you by Ndlandla?

JOEL MHLAHLEMI SESHABA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MR SHAKOANE: That's the evidence from the applicant unless there's any further aspect that I would be required to cover?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't have any evidence before us, we don't have any evidence before us that would suggest any justification for shooting.  As you are aware you have to satisfy an important requirement to show that the offence concerned was politically motivated and what he sought to achieve by shooting Mr Buthelezi.  We do not have that evidence.  We would appreciate if you could lead him in that regard.  Do you understand what I'm trying to say Mr Shakoane?  You have not led him on why he shot Mr Buthelezi, the justification for the shooting and what was sought to be achieved politically by shooting Mr Buthelezi.

MR SHAKOANE: Madame I thought I've asked a question on him as to what the cause was for him to follow the three persons and also why did he ultimately shoot the deceased and there were answers from him in that regard.

CHAIRPERSON: You are satisfied?  Are those the answers that you will argue in your - are you going to use those answers in your legal argument to support his application?  Are you satisfied with the answers given?

MR SHAKOANE: Perhaps I could just ask him to add on to that in explanation to make the political justification thereof clearer to the Committee?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you see the answers that have the reasons advanced by Mr Seshaba for shooting Mr Buthelezi have been that the first was he was trying to get back the money taken from the shop and the watch taken from Ndlandla Ngala and the second reason was that he shot the deceased because and this is important, you are conducting his application with a view of enabling him to succeed in his application for amnesty and bearing in mind the requirements of the Act, he says he shot because one of them reached for his firearm.  Now that is the question that you think has been - that response in my opinion does not go to show the political justification for the shooting?

MR SHAKOANE: Madame, the situation at that effect is to be understood on the - I could perhaps take him through on that?