Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-29

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson, I believe there is a very great need to desensitise all people that have been involved in the war, on all sides.  The Department of Defence has actually undertaken programmes to work towards bringing all of the integrated members closer together.  One of the important aspects would be to make people not be politically partisan, I know that the old SADF had the approach of saying there were a-partisan, but I don't believe anybody is a-partisan, I think people always have political views, etc.  But you can make them non-partisan or ensure that they do not do anything that will further or hinder any political party.
	In the furtherance of that, the Department of Defence as part of its transformation programme had actually embarked upon a civil education programme which we had sought and had suggested at some point, that the Minister of Defence put to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and in fact a letter was written to the Archbishop Tutu, suggesting that we present this to the TRC, that programme is ongoing, it teaches all soldiers about the political life of the country, it talks about the constitution, it talks about what is democracy, it deals with the whole question of civil military relations, it goes on to deal with the law and armed conflict, it then deals with the whole question very thorny issue of cultural diversity, bringing people from different walks of life together, and lastly then the whole question of military professionalism.  In fact we have produced a booklet of guidelines for that purpose.  I in fact was the Chairperson of the work group that worked on the guidelines for it, this was a multi-faceted work group set up by the Minister of Defence, some two and a half, three years back, that has since produced the guidelines and I am currently the Chairperson of the Monitoring Committee that is looking at the implementation of these programmes inside of the Department of Defence.   
	I believe that this serves our purpose well, we go through a very difficult integration process and when tensions rise, I believe that the people will act in one way or the other, people also read certain things into certain actions of one person or another, and unfortunately we have seen the latest examples of it at Tempe.  I believe much more needs to be done, a greater impetus needs to be given to programmes like these, where we can bring people together.  I also believe that many of the people have not necessarily overcome the stresses of the past, and perhaps much more needs to be done in that regard.  A psycho-social support I believe needs to be set up in order to help people overcome the traumas of the past.

JUDGE PILLAY: One last aspect Mr Ismail, another concern of mine is and I have said that I travel the country, it seems this system and procedure, the TRC, is by and large working but this is a particular area that has been ravaged, far too many people have died over the years.  To the extent that it is accurately reported in the newspaper that people are still bitter, are you willing to assist if it can be arranged that people get together to speak their minds and come to terms with life?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson, I would give my right arm to do that.  Last year when we convened in Pretoria, what was extremely moving for me was meeting with Neville Clarence, one of the Air Force soldiers that had been blinded as a result of the Church Street blast.   We discussed issues and ultimately we met, it was a very difficult process, but I believe something long overdue, something that we all need to do.  I have also contemplated doing much more for reconciliation, and in fact with my wife, speak about this whole question, maybe we should think of setting up some kind of institute for reconciliation, where people like myself and others could go in and work whether it is part-time, full-time, etc, and do things in order to bring about greater reconciliation.
	With Mr Clarence, given his approach and his attitude, despite the fact that he is totally blind, he says he had accepted that he was a casualty of the war, he understood he stood on the other side, since then I believe we are becoming closer to each other, he has been to my home, had a meal together, and not so long ago, we were looking at the possibility during Arbor Week, of actually planing a tree of reconciliation, which we still intend to do and in fact the, about two weeks ago, I spoke to the Chief of the Air Force about it, and we agreed that early next year, on Air Force Memorial Day or something, we would do something of that sort.  But then we thought we would expand it and around the area of the Air Force, we would then  plant trees of reconciliation and we would invite people from all walks of life.  
	The whole question of reconciliation is an extremely important one, and I believe that reconciliation can only be brought about one, if we are honest and truthful about our past, two, if we also accept that we have a common future.  President Mandela has often said that the black people of this country have their hand outstretched to the white population, to march together into the future.  Often it is the white population that spurns that hand, that outstretched hand.  
	I believe the ANC, I believe this government is very genuine when it says this country belongs to all who live in it.  We have never sought to drive the whites into the sea, if anything, we have encouraged them to become part of the mainstream to help in rebuilding the country, there is a lot that needs to be done.  We need the help of every single person.   We need to look at mechanisms to make the whites feel they are also part of a democratic South Africa.  
	When President Mbeki at the time when he was Deputy President, in Parliament says we are all Africans and he said whites are also Africans, what does he mean by that?  He says you are part of us, you don't belong in Europe, they are not Europeans, they are Africans.  They are part of our society, they are part of us.  To all we say, let us all be part, let us understand that what happened then was because of apartheid, it was that population or section of the population which saw themselves as greater beings than others, that sought to subjugate the black population and we fought against it.  We have now come to the point where we need to win them over, make them understand that we are all equals in the land of our birth and together we can work at it.  If I am given the opportunity, I will do everything I can.  I know in the Natal area we have a huge problem, I know perhaps more than in other parts of the country, and whatever we can do, we will do, whenever.  If it is required in part-time to do that, we will do that.  	At the end of the day I believe there is a broader objective that we have to serve, we have to fight for humanity, we have to fight for peace.  If I have to serve time for peace, I volunteer.  
	May I also just take the opportunity Judge Pillay, to say if required, the guideline manual on civic education, can be made available and if you wish it in the next few days, I can contact my staff and have them send it down as soon as it is possible.

JUDGE PILLAY: Please.   Akin to that what you have said now and to my question, is that one gets the uneasy feeling of too much tension in this very hearing, I was wondering if you, I think are best placed to accommodate and to facilitate that road to reconciliation.  I don't know if it is possible, but I would dearly appreciate it if you could because on both sides, it seems, there is a bit of tension.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Well Mr Chairperson, to any of the victims or their relatives that may be out there, I would gladly walk up to you and say to you we are sorry for your hurt and your pain.   If you wish, I will walk up to each one of you.

JUDGE PILLAY: I don't think he is finished, but I am finished.