Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-12

ADV DE JAGER: The questions asked mean that if that - would 
that person not possibly have supplied me with those weapons 
if I offered them a higher price?

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chair, they would definitely or 
certainly not have sold weapons to anybody.  We got onto 
them because of informants, who - Nortje handled them 
through Khimelo. They would not have sold to strange people. 
 They would have had to contact informants.  But if we did 
this, it would have been possible.

HASSAN MALL: If a warlord or leader of a gang was interested 
in getting arms, and made contact, he would be supplied arms 
by these smugglers wouldn't he?

UNKNOWN: Yes, it is possible, sir.

HASSAN MALL: And is there nothing to say that on this 
occasion the arms that were being smuggled were for the ANC 
on this occasion or the PAC?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, I could not say specifically for whom 
these weapons were intended.  They might just as well have 
gone to Inkatha.  Furthermore, in my application before the 
Commission I also apply for a certain event where we 
received weapons from Inkatha, but from a specific person. I 
believe that these weapons were going for a militant freedom 
organisation.  The political parties murdered each other on 
the trains and everywhere.

JUDGE WILSON: As I understand the evidence, your evidence, 
your agents were going to buy these guns from these people.

UNKNOWN: Yes, and then arrest them.

JUDGE WILSON: So they were not bringing the guns in to give 
to known ANC or other activists whom they knew, they were 
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JUDGE WILSON: 142

UNKNOWN: prepared to sell them and they were going to sell them to 
your agents.

UNKNOWN: Our people pretended to be members of a 
political party. I was not there when they spoke with them.

HASSAN MALL: That opens up all kinds of possibilities. If 
your agents could have easily bought guns from them, the 
suppliers don't seem to be particularly concerned about who 
they were going to sell to.  They weren't going to ask proof 
from your agents whether they were members of the ANC or 
PAC?  They were quite happy to sell them.

UNKNOWN: That might be the case, but I believe that the 
weapons were going to the ANC, the PAC or Inkatha.

HASSAN MALL: No, I don't understand it when you say you 
believe it, we are now trying to test the reasonableness of 
your belief.

JUDGE WILSON: You can't have believed they were going to 
them.  Haven't you told us that you set up an ambush, a trap 
but when they bought the weapons the money was handed over, 
you are going to jump out and arrest them?

UNKNOWN: That is correct, Mr Chair, and we could have 
interrogated further to find out to whom these weapons were 
really going.

JUDGE WILSON: No the weapons were going to be sold there, 
in front of your eyes.

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chair, we would have arrested them and 
we could have questioned them further.

JUDGE WILSON: Instead of which you went off and had a party 
again?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, the operation was then cancelled. It 
would not have continued.  We then went, we had a braai and 
we drank. That was all that we could do at Komatipoort.
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HASSAN MALL: 143

HASSAN MALL: Who gave instructions to the leader of the 
Koevoet from your group, or under whose orders were Koevoet 
acting?

UNKNOWN: They were divided at Vlakplaas into certain 
units.  They were under the command of Gen De Kock at C10.  
There were also other ex-Koevoet members who were used as 
trackers at other branches.  All of them weren't with us.

HASSAN MALL: I'm talking about this particular occasion.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, may I just point out and I 
should have done that perhaps at the beginning.  Amnesty is 
not sought for murder in this matter.  Amnesty is simply 
sought for being an accessory after the fact for - for 
perjury and obstruction of justice. I am just making that 
point Mr Chairman because of the fact that we are not asking 
for amnesty for murder.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, they were under the command of Lieut 
Klopper and Nortje.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Is it therefore reasonable to conclude that 
when these people were killed by the Koevoet, they were 
acting under instructions from Klopper or Nortje?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, it is difficult to tell, because 
Nortje was with me and some of the other task force members 
before they were shot, we were together.  We then withdrew. 
 I do not know what orders Nortje gave them further on, but 
I think they acted on their own, on the spur of the moment.

HASSAN MALL: What about Klopper?

UNKNOWN: To my knowledge, I can't remember whether 
Klopper later spoke with them before these people were shot. 
 It might be the case but I have no knowledge.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I understand you to say that you helped in 
covering up this incident because you were worried that the 
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JUDGE MGOEPE: 144

UNKNOWN: disclosure thereof would have embarrassed or weakened the 
Government, or being to the advantage of the ANC or PAC 
during negotiations?

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What I don't understand is, why would that be 
so?  The people killed would have been simply arms 
smugglers. How can that - I am trying to wonder whether 
everybody in the country would not have been happy that arms 
smugglers were killed?

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chair, if I remember correctly, it was 
in the news and in the newspapers that the Government 
allowed that ex-Koevoet members, Ovambos, operated with the 
security branch and specifically Vlakplaas and Vlakplaas' 
reputation how they could go and shoot these people.  They 
didn't want - they didn't want the police to employ these 
ex-Ovambo members, but it was still done.

JUDGE MGOEPE: In fact I think the feelings were very strong 
against these Koevoet members?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: So basically when you discovered the 
Vlakplaas people had killed them, it was a cover-up now for 
the security police and Vlakplaas - the Koevoet people who 
killed them, sorry.   When the Koevoet people came back and 
said they had killed them, you covered up to save the name 
of the security police and Vlakplaas?

UNKNOWN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you please explain to us, members of 
Koevoet were members who - were they South African citizens?

UNKNOWN: Some of them, but not all of them.  The South 
African white policemen who served in Ovamboland, like in my 
case, I went for three months at a time, and we were a 
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ADV DE JAGER: 145

UNKNOWN: normal counter-insurgence unit, some of these members then 
applied for staying there for very long, for a year or two 
years, and they were then members of the Koevoet team.   
When I say Ovambo members, they were members from South West 
- now Namibia.  They then also worked with the tin units, 
the counter-insurgence units.  They could - they were very 
good at warfare.  There were also Ovambo members, together 
with Koevoet.

ADV DE JAGER: Were there in South Africa feelings against 
Koevoet?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Were they regarded as members of a Third 
Force?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And now if you covered this event up, was it 
for the protection of Koevoet or for the protection of the 
Government, in whose service they were?

UNKNOWN: The security police, the police and the 
Government in whose service they were.

HASSAN MALL: Did I understand your answer to be that your 
action was taken in the interest of the South African 
Government and the South African Police?  Is that what you 
are saying?

UNKNOWN: Yes, the security police, the police as a whole 
and the police who pursued the objectives of the Government 
of the day, which was the National Party Government.