Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: May I just add there, that even in exile, we had also set up a similar committee, in the secretary-general's office to help trace families inside South Africa, whose relatives may have died abroad. So that effort was being made even from exile conditions. Although conditions have improved since 1990 for that work to be more effective. But we had managed to contact particular relatives. In certain instances, we actually arranged for the relatives to come over to Lusaka, either to visit their relative or to come to the funeral or to be informed of the circumstances of the death of their loved one. So those steps were being taken already in the mid-eighties from exile, and if not a little earlier.

MR VALLY: Sorry, there is a second part ...

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps since he had wondered whether he might - Dr Mgojo.

UNKNOWN: Well, thank you. I am pleased about that information. But I wish whatever strategy is being used is very pastoral to the families. There is a general complaint which we receive in these hearings, that some of your offices which are dealing with this, they are not very sensitive to the families. Then it causes much hurt to the families, already hurt by the missing of their children, where they don't know where they are. I just want to caution that though I hear, let us not make more victims of the people who are already victims. Thank you.

MR ZUMA: I think we will take that seriously and we will have to follow up with respective offices. But I must mention that in certain instances, if you take the case of Barney Mulukwane, a very respected MK commander, we are struggling to identify the correct grave. We have gone to the police and say please show us the correct graves. They don't want to show us, they pretend they don't know. It happens in many operational areas as far as we are concerned, Komatipoort, Botswana borders. The police have not been co-operative in showing us the correct graves, even with the Barney Mulukwane, we wanted to take the family there. We could not with certainty say this is the grave. I think the Commission should also pay attention to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Dumisa Ntsebeza?

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you, Chair. It is just a follow-up and a request that you should possibly look into. I hear all the reasons that the tribunal said but some of the Commissions that have dealt with these violations, have - certainly the Motsunyane Commission, have indicated that at least six detained ANC members were summarily executed or beaten to death. Now this seems to have spanned over a period of time, from 1981 in one case to 1989 in the other case. The names have been given and the Motsunyane Commission gives this from page 151 to page 158, I think, of the Commission. It is quite disturbing to find that even in spite of the fact that there was a Code of Conduct, certainly from 1985, you have the 1989 incident where a person apparently was beaten to death during the course of the night. It doesn't appear that both in your august submission and the second reports, both public and confidential appendices, you have dealt with the names mentioned by Motsunyane on pages 151 to 156 of his report. The names are Ntombe Kombukane, Jimmy Parle, Philip Mangena, otherwise Drake Shilwane, David Dumela, Nthlapo Kenneth, Solisi Beko and Thabo Twala. I am not expecting you to sort of give us an answer right now, but it is something that would complete our picture if you could - if you give attention thereto.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: We will certainly look into those lists and respond to that properly.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Well, I think we should probably still go on. We hope to take lunch at one, one to two o'clock, so perhaps you might continue.

MR VALLY: Thank you, Archbishop.
My final question is directly related to the amnesty applications we have been receiving. We have got a series of amnesty applications on Saturday, the 10th, from the ANC and a number of them referred to allegations of torture and human rights violations in other camps besides Angola. We have got copies of these applications here. It would not be correct to mention their names at this stage, because the hearings haven't taken place, and was any investigation done, like the Stewart Commission, regarding camps in Zambia, Tanzania, Uganda?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Chairperson, first of all, we didn't have, on a continuous basis, camps in Zambia. Secondly, other countries, Tanzania, we had the Solomon Mahlangu School and I think our submission explains how one of the farms came to be perceived by some people, alleged by the Douglas Commission, to be a detention centre when it was not. Then there is Uganda.
Now there is no commission but it underlines the point made by the Deputy President, that in general no major problem had arisen. However, we would like to co-operate fully with the TRC and that if we are provided with any of those questions, we would straightaway look into the matter and respond. But without the information before us it is difficult to respond thereto. We don't know whether the allegation is real or not real. So we would like to co-operate with you in that spirit.

MR VALLY: We will let you have a copy of the amnesty applications that were given to us.
Sorry, I thought it was my final question, but the one question I want ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Alfred Nzo. You did take the oath?

MR NZO: Yes, I was amongst the first.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR NZO: Well, what I wanted to add is that you know, during the course of our stay and work in exile, there were instances when some members of the African National Congress got involved somewhat in transgressing laws of the countries in which we were. Now in those instances the African National Congress had a policy that the law of the country in which such transgression takes place, must take its full course. We would not protect them in that regard.
Of course, in the course of detention in some of these countries, we received ourselves you know, complaints of harsh treatment by the local police officials, of those that had been detained, having transgressed against the laws of the country in which we were. Well, of course, we don't know whether in the course of the rule applying, they would also want to mention those as though the African National Congress there was responsible for them. I just merely wanted to warn against that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR VALLY: I am sorry, Mr Chair, I thought I was finished. There was a very important question I haven't asked, which is where - is the African National Congress in a position to show the TRC or the families who have been executed as to where they are buried?

UNKNOWN: The answer is yes.

MR VALLY: Mr Chair, I am finished with this section now.

CHAIRPERSON: Which section are you talking about?

MR VALLY: Section 1.

CHAIRPERSON: Disappearances in exile?

MR VALLY: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Human rights.

MR VALLY: I am not finished with the camps. I haven't finished with the camps when you assumed I had.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I see, I see. You should make it clear for me to understand that you have. Alright. I mean, I asked my panel and I think that the panel has asked the questions that they wanted to ask.
I wonder whether this shouldn't be regarded as an appropriate point. Because of the constraints of finances that come from the treasury, we will not be able to feed everybody. So we would like to invite the official delegation. Now you have to perhaps you will have to say who the official delegation is, and it may, it may be that points are stretched. Thank you very much. We return at two.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we want to resume. Mac, I am so loud and you can't hear me. Perhaps we should resume. Thank you very much. There is a question that the Deputy President wants to make.