Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-23

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: No, that is totally not correct.  We reported each operation.  Now if you insist that we did not report it means you're referring to us as mercenaries and not freedom fighters.  It's mercenaries who kill people, retrieve money and not report.  We were soldiers, we had to report even if we did not specifically take the money there but we reported it.

MR MALAN: I'm not making any accusations Mr Maseko, I'm not making a statement.  If you would just bear with me.  I'm saying that in order to grant amnesty, the Act says the Committee must satisfy itself that it should grant amnesty.  We have only your evidence and we have no other evidence to corroborate it and the point has been made clear to us that there are difficulties but in a way we need to satisfy ourselves that you are making a full disclosure, that indeed it was political and we have nothing except confirmation that you were indeed a commander of a unit which goes somewhere but it does not deal operationally with this stuff.  That's all at the moment, I just wanted to make this clear, if you have any comment you may make that comment?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: From what I heard it seems as if we were doing we were doing just a bunch of hooligans who just acted on their own accord.  We were not a bunch of hooligans, we were members of a particular political organisation.  Now you are criminalising the struggle.  We were not mercenaries and we were not killing people at random, we were soldiers fighting for liberation and belonging to a particular political group.

MR MALAN: Mr Maseko, it's time to break for tea, let me put this statement again to you for your comment and this was the only statement that I made and I make it again.  I'm saying, in terms of your evidence if in all your operations you would have been successful in only retrieving amounts up to R500 per exercise, per operation, then no monies would have ever been paid over but you would have continued with the operations simply reporting the operations.  I'm asking, is that assessment correct, that's my question, I'm stating it again.

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I did not hear what you've just said, could you just repeat it?

MR MALAN: Okay.  I'm saying your evidence says if it was a large sum of money, you talked about guidelines, then you would look at your needs and you would go to Botswana and you would pay over the money and some would be given back to you for the needs of the unit, correct?  If it was small sums of monies up to R500 or so you would not travel to Botswana to hand over any money but you would retain the money for the unit, for it's transport and training and subsistence and whatever expenses there were, is that correct?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: That is correct.

MR MALAN: So the statement that I'm making as a question for your comment is, if all your operations would never have gained for you sums in excess of R500, then no payments would have been made to Botswana but the operations would have continued, is that correct?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes that is correct but all the time we always wanted to get a substantial amount so that we could be able to submit some of it or all of it to Botswana.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, maybe we should simply dispose of Mr Maseko before we break for tea.  I'm aware that we are already a few minutes long overdue for tea.  I wonder if the translators can bear with us for about two minutes, I only have one or two questions to put to Mr Maseko.  Is that okay with the translators?

INTERPRETER: That is okay with the translators Madam Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
	Mr Maseko, flowing from what Mr Malan has just put to you, I thought I comprehended your evidence to be that though you could utilise small amounts, what we term to be small amounts for your own sustenance.  You nevertheless had to get permission from the officer in Botswana before you could do that, is that not what you - is that not your evidence?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: You should understand that these operations were not carried out on a daily basis, there would be a gap in between the operations so whenever we embarked on an operation we did it according to need, that is when we had problems accumulating, monetary problems or sustenance problems, the  operations were far between.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maseko, just a response to a question put to you.  Did I understand your evidence to be that even though you had a discretion to utilise what you termed small amounts, you still had to seek permission from Msiki in Botswana before you could do that, is that not what your evidence was, if I understood your evidence properly?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That's all, I mean you really have to stick to what is being put to you without giving a lot of background material.  With regard to the operation in question, the weapons that you used for this operation where were they obtained?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: These are the weapons that we were promised when we got into South Africa, we indeed got these weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: Now where were they obtained, from whom were these obtained?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: From PAC, they had been brought by the PAC couriers into the country.

CHAIRPERSON: And the ammunition that was used, was it also from the PAC couriers?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: That is correct, we got arms and ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: On page 12 of the bundle - I think it's page 11 at paragraph 11, you have referred to a person called Comrade Junior in Botswana as having been the person that you reported to in connection with the proceeds of the repossession unit that you commanded whereas in your affidavit and in the evidence that you have adduced before this Committee, you have referred to a person by the name of Msiki.  Is Junior and Msiki one and the same person?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: No, these are two different people but the two of them were in Botswana.  Junior was the commander to whom I reported but Msiki - Junior was in the logistics department but both of them were in Botswana.

CHAIRPERSON: Now which of them did you report to, the incident in question?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I reported it to Msiki.

CHAIRPERSON: And what reports did you give to Junior in Botswana insofar as the activities of your unit were concerned?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: There's nothing that I reported to Junior besides the fact that I used to ask him for AK47 bullets and if I had to go outside of the country, that is outside the borders of South Africa to fetch such ammunition I would report it to Junior.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it therefore incorrect what appears in paragraph 11 that whatever activity that had been conducted by your unit was reported to Junior, particularly with regard to the proceeds that had been collected from the repossession operations that your unit conducted?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: No, it was supposed to be Msiki not Junior, I think there's a mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  At paragraph 18 of your affidavit Mr Maseko you have alluded to your poverty stricken family.  Was there any reason for you to do that?  Are you from a very poor family?  Do you have your affidavit before you, do you have the paragraph that I'm referring to?  That's paragraph 18?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes I can see it.  It is like that and my sisters, even if you do look at them, you can say that they are from a poverty stricken family, I'm also from a poverty stricken family.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo, will you be calling any further witnesses?

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Madam Chair, I think after tea I'll be able during teatime to know whether I'll call somebody.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we'll take a tea adjournment for about 15 minutes, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?