Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR VALLY: Director Hesslinga, you were a member of Koevoet, is that correct?

MR HESSLINGA: That's correct Mr Chairperson.

MR VALLY: As a member of Koevoet - two issues, did you witness any torture taking place in Namibia and did you encounter Colonel Eugene de Kock while you were in Koevoet?

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, I served with Colonel de Kock in Koevoet, he was one of my colleagues.  All that I can say with regard to my time in Koevoet, was that we were at war - that is as much as I can answer.

MR VALLY: Did you witness torture while you were with Koevoet?

MR HESSLINGA: My answer Chair, would be that we were in a state of war, that is my answer.

MR VALLY: Will I get a better answer - he made an unequivocal statement under oath that he has never witnessed or participated in torture.  In answer to a direct question on the issue, he now says he was in a war situation, are we to imply from his answer that yes, in a war situation he did either participate or witness torture?

DR BORAINE: Director, please answer.

MR CILLIERS: ...[inaudible]

DR BORAINE: Yes, sure.

MR CILLIERS: At this stage the witness in fact did answer the question and whether it's to the satisfaction of my learned friend, is for him to decide but he indicated what his answer is and that he would not go beyond that and I submit that it should be respected.

DR BORAINE: Mr Cilliers, I'm sorry, we really are trying to get to the bottom of these matters and the answer we received from your client is not unambiguous answer and I would ask him if he would reconsider and tell us exactly how he would respond in answer to the question.
 Did you or did you not witness torture or participate in torture activities during the war in Namibia?

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, the word: "torture" - we were in a state of war, we were in war circumstances, we were shooting at one another, we bled and the people around us died.  Were someone wounded and lying on the ground, would that be torture or not?  That we were hanging people or cutting their throats or torturing people - this did not happen, we were conducting our war.

MR VALLY: Let me go on to Mr Dempsey.  Mr Dempsey, you were originally the investigating officer in the matter of the disappearance of Mr Lolo Sono and Mr Shabalala.  And you for murder and robbery, yet the crucial statement that goes missing in the investigation is that of the driver Mr Michael Siakamela and that statement is taken by Mr Norman Lemmers who is a member of the security branch - the same Norman Lemmers who's the investigating officer in the attack on Jerry Richardson's house where this ANC guerrilla and Sergeant Pretorius are killed - where Mr Richardson is released after a very short time in detention without being charged.  Can you explain to us the connection and the coincidence there.

MR DEMPSEY: Chair, I believe that the question to me is factually incorrect.  I took the statement from Michael Siakemela, the statement of Mr Sono and Mr Shabalala were taken by Lemmer.

MR VALLY: ...[inaudible] I'm sorry, the question still remains, why was a security branch member taking statements - the same person who apparently was the investigating officer in the attack on Mr Jerry Richardson's house?

MR DEMPSEY: I cannot answer this question Chair.  I carried that docket and in my prior testimony,  I received this docket on the 20th of January 1989.

DR BORAINE: Mr Valley?

MR VALLY: Very finally, Mr Johannes Temba Mabotha, an Askari who was now back in your hands as the police - according to you, was perfectly willing to co-operate in a unique position in the Madikizela-Mandela household.
 In our experience the police up to today, are very reluctant to give us names of informers because they say it's an essential part of their investigation, why wasn't this man released to be used as an informer as he had already committed himself to do previously and rather was handed to security branch who handed him to Colonel Eugene de Kock - ex-Koevoet, who then blows him up?  Why was this not done?

MR DEMPSEY: Again Sir, your facts are not correct, I did not arrest this man, security arrested this man, security detained this man, security had the oversight of this man.

MR VALLY: Sorry, a follow-up question.

DR BORAINE: Yes, carry on.

MR VALLY: Mr Dempsey had clearly indicated to us that the Mr Mabotha, accompanied him to the Attorney General's office.  If he's got all these unsolved cases hanging over his head - and I'm talking about the disappearance of Shabalala and Sono, he considered using Mr Mabotha in the case of Stompie Sepei, why did he not make a recommendation which is a very simple thing especially since the security branch was so co-operative - when he wanted Mabotha, they produced Mr Mabotha for him, why did he not request that Mr Mabotha be released and be used as an informer for his matters which are still unsolved today?

DR BORAINE: Mr Dempsey?

MR DEMPSEY: Chair, again, the facts are again mistaken.  Mabotha did not go to the Attorney General's office with me, I personally - and I repeat this for I don't know how many times, along with the attorney or advocate went to interview Mr Mabotha at a cell at a police station.
 Again, this man was not simply handed to us, we had to track him down with careful investigative work.

MR CILLIERS: Director Hesslinga, you were criticised because you did not approach Mrs Mandela or confront Mrs Mandela after a clear connection which linked her with the Asvat matter.  Apart from the allegations of Mr Dlamini that he had heard from Mr Mbatha that such a connection existed, had there been any other supporting evidence?

MR HESSLINGA: No.

MR CILLIERS: Must it not be seen in addition in view of the fact that the same Mr Dlamini in that very week, denied his own statement or allegation in the Regional Court during his plea?

MR HESSLINGA: That is correct Chair, and also in the High Court.

MR CILLIERS: The next question is only for Senior Superintendent Dempsey.  With regard to criticism with regard to certain testimony not offered during the course of the trial against Mrs Mandela, is it not - as it appears from the High Court record, that with great difficulty, the High Court allowed that such facts in the case could be offered in the case against Mrs Mandela with regard to similar incidents, in order to strengthen the case against her?

MR HESSLINGA: That is the case Chair.

MR CILLIERS: Is it also correct - as appears from the record, that in fact after all of this considerable trouble and difficulty in legal terms, the High Court allowed this and all the witnesses to bring testimony against Mrs Mandela?

MR HESSLINGA: That is correct.

MR CILLIERS: Is it also correct that in fact - as you have already testified at an earlier stage of this hearing, the original dockets with regard to these matters are still in your possession and has been offered to the Truth Commission with regard to identical matters, with the addresses and the particular witnesses.

MR HESSLINGA: That is the case.

MR CILLIERS: Thank you Chair.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much, that concludes the session.  I want to thank you for making yourself available to the Commission and undergoing the questions.
 This hearing is adjourned until 8H30 tomorrow morning, thank you.
WITNESSES EXCUSED
COMMISSION ADJOURNS