Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-01-17

MR WEBSTER: Chairperson what I'm going to say to him is that some of the occupants had injuries on their bodies which were on the left sides of their bodies. 
and Chairperson says:  "Put that to him."
	So there's no doubt that what Mr Webster says is some of these people were shot from the left and you were the one that shot them and now you're not making a full disclosure because you're not saying that you did.  Then, Mr Chairman, a strange thing happens because Mr Webster then goes off on another ...(indistinct) and that is to suggest to Botha that in truth and in fact he did nothing wrong and there is nothing for which he can ask for amnesty for because he committed no offence, he never shot any of these people and then he went about trying to show on the record that no shots entered any of these people from the left but they came from the right and from above, that's where we came onto the helicopter story.  	Now Chairperson, let me give you the references to that, that's the record, page 569 lines 5 to 12, 571 line 4 to 574 line 14 and then again at record page 577 line 1 to 578 line 14.  Now, Chairperson, with great respect, as in these references which I gave you, you put to Mr Webster that unless one has expert evidence, at least of the doctor who examined these bodies to come and tell us and you will recall Chairperson, our copies leave much to be desired, it's not easy to read them, to see the direction of wounds etc., then we don't know, then we're speculating and we can do no better than to adopt that also as our argument.  	Chairperson, what we know from the post mortem reports, on the face of it and I take it no further than that, is that only one of the victims had injuries and there were two injuries which appeared to come from the top of that person's body and that, Chairperson, is in Exhibit G, if I remember correctly, may I just check it?
	Yes, Exhibit G relates to the victim Mamela and I don't know whether your Exhibits were paginated Chairperson, I think we decided to paginate them and at page 20 of Exhibit G where you see the sketches, it seems at the bottom two figures that there is an indication of wounds, mine is very unclear but I'm prepared to concede that there appears to be entrance wounds in the direction from the top downwards.  Now if that is so, what does it tell us, Chairperson?  Does it present conclusive proof of a helicopter that fired shots?  We submit it doesn't, because if a helicopter fired shots from above, one would have expected, Chairperson, that they would have had a clear view of this car and clear shots at this car and it's hardly likely that they would only have hit one person in this car, with respect, on probabilities, but it's speculation.  But Chairperson, as you yourself had pointed out to Mr Webster at the time, these bodies did not remain stagnant in one position.  There's firing, there's shooting, they're going to move around, they're going to look around, they're going to see where the firing's coming from.  Some of them may crouch down to avoid being shot, we don't know.  We don't know and if I recall correctly, Mr Chairman, Mamela sits in the right-hand side at the rear of this vehicle, so with great respect, when you have a kombi next to him and Chairperson you don't need evidence to know, to take judicial notice of the fact that a kombi is a vehicle in which passengers sit much higher than a passenger car such as a Cressida and clearly some of the shots of Wasserman, had they hid Mamela, would have come from the top in that sense.  Not from the top diagonally above, but certainly ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Vertically above.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, vertically above, but more from the top diagonally, Chairperson, so it really takes the matter no further, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, I was coming to that.  I said there's only one person where it appears that the shots came from above, if you look at the figures.  There are other instances Chairperson, for example (e) where, if you look at page 17 of (e), 1, 2 and 3, move in a downward position and I'm going to attempt to make, to draw a differentiation between from the top and in a downward position, because these are not from the top but they move downward and we see this, Mr Chairman, we say this Mr Chairman also is in line with a kombi next to that vehicle, Lembede firing and Wasserman firing, so Mr Chairman, at the end of the day the question is, what do we make of all of this?  We make nothing out of this, we can't.  We know that these people were shot.  The question is, was there a helicopter and I'll come to that in a moment, Chairperson.  	Chairperson I see it's already past 1 o'clock.  Do you want to take an adjournment for lunch and to reconvene?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. ...(indistinct - microphone not on)

MR VISSER: Yes, it's convenient for me, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ... (indistinct - microphone still not on)

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman.  I think so.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn now and resume at a quarter to 2.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION