Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

MR VAN ECK: Do you know or do you have any knowledge if money was exchanged afterwards?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes I knew about money that was handed over.

MR VAN ECK: What do you know about it?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: There was a budget approved for this project.  I do not know the specific amounts though, and I do know amounts of money were paid over, I think it was R18,000.

MR VAN ECK: Were you involved in that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No not at all.

MR VAN ECK: Were you involved in, what would be known in layman's terms as a de-briefing session, do you know what happened there?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR VAN ECK: Mr Botha after the incident of the bomb explosion in Athlone were you once again pulled into the structure of Region 6?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes I was.

MR VAN ECK: To what extent?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I continued with my normal activities.

MR VAN ECK: And what did this entail?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was the identification of targets, the description of projects, the initiation of projects and those type of things.

MR VAN ECK: Very well.  You mentioned before about Rosscam, you are now back in the structure, but it doesn't seem as if you have really achieved a lot apart from setting off a bomb.  Did you do anything else with regards to Rosscam?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes Sir, I continued to burn out the vehicle with Mr Barnard.

MR VAN ECK: That was in September of the same year?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: Did you give feedback in an in-house meeting that you made use of Mr Barnard?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No I did not.

MR VAN ECK: Why not?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Once again because of the security break that would be created.  I said that Geoffrey, my unconscious member executed the operation.

MR VAN ECK: And Geoffrey was the name that you gave when you made the initial in-house with regards to the Rosscam project?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's correct.

MR VAN ECK: Was remuneration given to hand over to Geoffrey?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: There was.

MR VAN ECK: What happened to it?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was R5,500 which I shared with Mr Barnard.

MR VAN ECK: After the Rosscam incident did you do anything in the interests of the CCB, anything further?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: As you can see my visit to the Royal Ascot Hotel, if you can see that as being in the interests of the CCB, yes.

MR VAN ECK: Yes that is what I would like to know.
During that time when you were placed on ice did you keep contact with Barnard?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes I did.

MR VAN ECK: Was information given to you at any stage concerning a man called Aitchison?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes Mr Barnard gave me the CV of Ronald or Dolan Aitchison and we attempted or it was my intention to apply him in the structure.

MR VAN ECK: Can you recall when you received this information from Aitchison?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: If I can recall I think it was in April.

MR VAN ECK: Did you meet Aitchison?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No I never met him.

MR VAN ECK: Up until today?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Never.

MR VAN ECK: What did you do with what Mr Barnard gave you with regards to Aitchison?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir before I could do anything about the CV I was placed on ice.  I then handed over the CV to Mr Burger and after that I was placed on ice.

MR VAN ECK: What did you say to Mr Burger concerning the CV that you gave?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I said it was somebody that I met, this is his CV and it seems to be somebody with certain capabilities and I just gave it to him.

MR VAN ECK: To Mr Burger?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's correct.

MR VAN ECK: What was the reaction on Aitchison, what was Burger's reaction on the information that you gave him?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Well he accepted it and he said, well thank you.

MR VAN ECK: Did he say he was going to continue?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No I was then placed on ice and at a later stage when I did certain enquiries surrounding this Mr Verster said Aitchison is busy, he's involved and it's a hands-off type if situation.

MR VAN ECK: So you hand over a CV of Aitchison and you never have anything to do with him again?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct, yes.

MR LAX: Just for clarity purpose, which Mr Verster told you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Joe Verster.  Mr Burger told me that Joe Verster said that he was involved and that we cannot make use of him.

MR VAN ECK: Very well just to prevent any further confusion we heard the name from Mr Barnard of Rich Verster.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes. I met him once.  I cannot really describe him but I did meet him once, yes.

MR VAN ECK: Did he give you any instructions at any stage?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No he never.

MR VAN ECK: So if you refer to Verster you refer to Joe Verster?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: Lubowski, have you heard of such a person?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes I heard that after he was killed, I heard about him.

MR VAN ECK: Did you know if monitoring was done on him?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No I did not.

MR VAN ECK: If people had to follow him into Namibia?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No I did not know of it.

MR VAN ECK: Did Mr Barnard at any stage mention to you that he monitored Lubowski in Johannesburg?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Not as far as I can recall, no.  But there is a possibility but I cannot recall it, no.

MR VAN ECK: If I have got my facts right Mr Lubowski was killed on the 13th of September 1989.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes I think that's the date.

MR VAN ECK: What happened afterwards?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: A meeting was held where they discussed the death of Mr Lubowski.  As I have stated in one of my statements the people who attended was myself, Mr Maree and the other members of the cell also present.  There was some nervousness with regards to Mr Aitchison's possible involvement in the death of Mr Lubowski and they told me to lie low.  Now that can mean various things.

MR VAN ECK: We will come back to the lying low.  Did you make any enquiries, did you ask what is going on here?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I did and the connection that I made was that Aitchison was possibly involved without Mr Maree knowing about it and then they wanted to do damage control.  I do not think they knew exactly what he did.  But just the involvement confused them.

MR VAN ECK: We heard the evidence of Mr Barnard that the two of you went to go and steal a book, a book concerning Aitchison.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes that was at the Royal Ascot Hotel in Norwood.  I heard that Mr Maree had a meeting with Aitchison and they wanted to destroy the evidence.

MR VAN ECK: Who did you send to go and steal the book?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I think it was Mr Staal Burger.

MR VAN ECK: Why did Ferdi Barnard go with?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was once again an operation that is impossible to do alone and we assisted each other.

MR VAN ECK: Was this a type of operation where they would be an in-house and an unconscious member involved?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was a spontaneous request and it was just to assist a colleague.

MR VAN ECK: Was there urgency connected to this?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR VAN ECK: At the Royal Ascot Hotel, what happened there?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Myself and Mr Barnard attempted to get hold of the book.  After a certain time or after we struggled we at long last stole one of the books, unluckily it was the wrong one that we did.

MR VAN ECK: Another person Alex Kouvaris appeared at the scene, were you still present?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: We were leaving at that stage, we were on our way out.

MR VAN ECK: Who is Alex Kouvaris?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It is a friend and a colleague of Mr Burger.

MR VAN ECK: Why was it important for you to mention that Mr Kouvaris was there?