Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-25

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  I will ask my colleagues here to ask you if they have questions to ask you.  Tom Manthata?

THOMAS MANTHATA: There is this reference to the Togoza youth where you were called or where you were brought together by
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a certain Dempsey. Was it Dempsey? What was being discussed at that meeting?

MRS SHABALALA: Yes, they called us at Pritchard, my husband went there, and he explained to them, that there were people from Togoza, people from Gauteng and surroundings, and I asked Mr Shabalala what did he say.  He said no, we didn't say anything.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Did you ever get to know the names of any of those parents from Togoza?

MRS SHABALALA: No, I didn't.  No, because I wasn't there,  I didn't go there.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And you have never come together with them, never since?

MRS SHABALALA: No.  No, I never met them.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Yes, I find it very difficult here that it was - you said the time that you were presented with a photograph was in 1995.  Am I correct?

MRS SHABALALA: Yes, it is true, they gave me my son's photograph and they asked me if I know this person. I said yes, and those people who came to tell me that my son has died, I can't differentiate who they were, because we used to give people photographs, people who were offering help, people who were offering assistance, people from Soweto, they used to take our photographs, my son's photograph.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Did I hear you correctly to say that Dempsey in the last visit to your home, he presented you with the remains of your children?

MRS SHABALALA: No.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thanks.

MRS SHABALALA: Can I go on?

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you.
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MRS SHABALALA: Dempsey and policemen came to my house early in the morning to explain to me and they showed me a photograph and they asked me if I know this person. They showed me a photograph and asked me do you know this person. I said yes, I know, it is my son.  They said he is dead. I said to them he is dead, where is he now?  They said to me if you want to know you can go to Pretoria at the police station, they must bring along R4 000,00, because where they are buried, they have put them in one grave.  So I said to them okay, but I was surprised.  I didn't know what to say, because they needed R4 000,00.  That was the end of the story. I explained to my family that there were policemen who came to my house, who brought this photograph and they told me that my son has died, and they need R4 000,00. I don't have R4 000,00.  I just wanted them to show me where they buried him.   I couldn't go to Pretoria, because they didn't explain to me where they buried him.  So I just left it there, because I just lost my husband as well.
 After a long time, there came a Cape Town story, Mr Sono and Mrs Sono went to Cape Town.  When they came back, Mrs Sono also explained about my son.  Mrs Sono explained that Sibonisa Shabalala, we have heard that he is dead and they brought a photograph, his photograph.  
 Afterwards Dempsey and other policemen came and said to me why Mrs Sono said your son has died. I said to them that's true, because policemen came to my house and brought this photograph and said to me your son has died.  So Mr Dempsey said can I please have this photograph, let me go and investigate very well, because I am not quite sure if your son has died.  He took this photograph away.  He never came back to explain this thing to me. Mr Dempsey asked me 
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where is Shadrack.  I told him Shadrack has died.  Then Dr Dempsey called Dobsonville and asked who is handling Shadrack's case.  They explained to him and that was the end of the story. He left with my son's photograph. He didn't bring it back until today.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Those police who talked about Pretoria and the R4 000,00, did not identify themselves.

MRS SHABALALA: No, they didn't.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thanks Mamma, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin Sooka?

YASMINE SOOKA: Mrs Shabalala, just one question.  The police who came to visit you with your son's photograph, they told you that they were being buried, they were buried in one grave together.  Did you manage to ask them who was buried in one grave together?

MRS SHABALALA: No, I didn't ask them.  Because they just said to me your son has been buried together with other people. But I didn't ask them, because I was so confused.  They just came and said your son has died and you need
R4 000,00, everything just confused me.

CHAIRPERSON: Joyce Seroke?

MS SEROKE: Mrs Shabalala, you explained that these boys came looking for Sibonisa. They said to you Sibonisa is going to cross.  Did you ask them what actually they meant when they said he is going to cross.

MRS SHABALALA: I did ask them, I did ask them crossed to where.  So they said - I said where.  So they said to Winnie.  That's how they put it.

MS SEROKE: You have put forward to us that your main reason that you are here, you want to know really what happened to your son, you want to find out more, you want the police to
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investigate or the Commission to investigate about your son's disappearance, and maybe the investigation can help other parents who have also lost kids and do not know where their kids are today.  What can you suggest to this Commission that what we need to do, so that we can find all this.

MRS SHABALALA: What I think is that - I heard one day when I read from the newspaper that Winnie has this team, and I said to myself Winnie has attracted our kids through soccer.  I think the devil has come to Winnie's heart.   I would like Winnie to come forward and meet with us and explain to us like a woman, we are also women and mothers, and we want to know whether she did this deliberately or if it was not her intention, because I also still feel that it wasn't her intention.

MS SEROKE: Besides looking or concentrating on Winnie, what can you suggest that we can do for parents like you, parents who have experienced such a traumatic experience like this.  What can you suggest to this Commission so that they can have peace before they die.

MRS SHABALALA: There won't be any peace until we have all the explanations that one needs, because what one needs is that - I have this belief that even a fly when it dies, it first think and I think it was my first time I lost a child and it was my first-born, that is where I prove myself to be a mother and a woman.  I am in trouble and I am in sorrow.  I am very thankful to the Truth Commission that they came here so that we are able to talk about our grievances and about our grief.  At least if you tell someone you know that someone is listening to you and someone is willing to do something for you.  It takes part of the pain away, because
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this is not the kind of treatment we have been receiving.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you very much for saying that to feel that if you are hurt it takes part of your pain. Your statement is one of the statements that is going to be handed over to the investigating team and if we do find your son, we can do what we can so that everything goes smoothly.  But everything what we have experienced, it shows us where we are coming from.  Lots of people have suffered, harassment, torture, trauma, they have been through a lot, but we wouldn't be here if we didn't experience all of these things.  On the way you made enemies, but we made friends. It doesn't mean that you have to forgive that much but it shows that we are coming to where we are coming from. Now we trust and we believe that this will comfort you and the reverends will comfort you and be with you.  Thank you very much.
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