Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-12-01

MR SWANEPOEL: Now - and Jabu did not say anything about one of the girls running away from there, attempting to escape and being brought back to the house ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Swanepoel, are you surprised?  He had already left, if it did happen he wouldn't have seen it so it was understandable that Jabu wouldn't testify about that.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please Mr Chairperson, as I remember the evidence correctly, Jabu's testimony was to the effect that immediately after he left his colleague entered the house with the AK47 and he heard the shots.

MS PATEL: That is the way I understand his evidence as well.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please.  Why didn't Jabu mention this escape attempt?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swanepoel, it's still - it's not self-destructive, he may have shot the other person.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please.

CHAIRPERSON: Or may have missed as has seemed to be the case with every of these shotists.

MR SWANEPOEL: Let me ask you this way, did the girl escape before your colleague entered the house with the AK47 to finish the job?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: She left after Jabu had instructed the other comrade.  Jabu told them they must finish off the job and he left and after Jabu and then we heard a gunshot and the lady ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: In that order, you heard a gunshot and then she ran away?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.  It was first the gunshot and the lady left the house running.

MR SWANEPOEL: So she ran away while your colleague with the AK47 was inside busy finishing the job, as you call it?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: After you caught her and you took her back and you - I assume there were further gunshots, did you look inside the house at any time before you left?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: No we did not get into the house.  After the gunshot I was already outside and we were on our way out when Mdmase came.  He told us that everything is done and then we left the place.

MR SWANEPOEL: How many of you were there at that time?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: There was a lot of us and I can't even remember the other people that's why I did not mention them because even the place that we were staying at, the danger zone, it's another place, it's a strange place.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now Jabu told this Commission ...(intervention)

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes it is dangerous.

MR SWANEPOEL: Jabu told this Commission that when he entered the house he fired shots and because of that all his comrades with the exception of Mdmase ran away.  What do you say to that?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes I agree.

MR SWANEPOEL: But yet your evidence is now that after Jabu left there were still a lot of you there?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Could you explain that?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: It's not all of us who managed to run away.  When we got into the house when he started shooting the other people got scattered all over and instead all of us managed to run away, I don't know where the others went to.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes but Jabu's testimony was, that only Mdmase with the AK47 was left outside the door of the house.

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Will you please repeat the question?

MR SWANEPOEL: Jabu told this Commission that when he entered the house and started firing shots, all his comrades ran away and only Mdmase with an AK47 was left outside the house which is why you told Mdmase to go inside and finish the job?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: I do not understand when you say if he was outside the house or inside the yard.  Please clarify that for me?

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Swanepoel, perhaps the crux of the matter is, was she caught and brought back and the only one except them who could tell us something about it is your client so what's your client's version, can you put it to the witness or to the applicant?

CHAIRPERSON: Or alternatively the other version is that the person that could have ran away may now be deceased?  You yourself say that your client was rendered unconscious at some time.

MR SWANEPOEL: That is the difficulty I'm faced with Mr Commissioner, is that the full picture of events of that specific evening is not clear to my client.  She remembers her sister being shot she saw her falling, she remembers herself being shot shortly after that and then she woke up in hospital.

ADV DE JAGER: I thought because she's living she must have been the one running away and that's not necessarily so.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please.  Mr Chairperson, the line of cross-examination is aimed at the credibility of this witness and if it's two directly conflicting versions.

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Swanepoel but the point of the matter is like we told you in chambers, that in our view the act as a particular purpose and if you have instructions to oppose the application, we would appreciate the fact that the opposition is based on facts, not an attempt to fish out possible problems that may not exist because that just wastes time.   If there's something concrete with which you could oppose the application, by all means.

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please Mr Chairman.
	Do you know what happened to the two women that was kidnapped after the shots were fired and you left the house?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Will you please repeat the question?  Do you want to know whether I went inside the house and checked?  Will you please repeat that one?

MR SWANEPOEL: I want to know if you know what happened to any of the two sisters after you left the house together with your comrades.

CHAIRPERSON: Even if you heard from somebody afterwards about what happened.  In other words do you know if one died?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes, when we left the house and the master told us both of them were dead but after some time we heard that only one of them passed away, the other one was still alive.

MR SWANEPOEL: And did you hear anything else that happened that night apart from the death of the one girl?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: No.

MR SWANEPOEL: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know anything about the fact that the two women were raped?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes I heard about that the next morning.  It was people who actually raped them were beaten, were shambokked and the commander instructed that they should be shambokked because the commander said it wasn't the order for them to rape, the order was for them to kidnap and kill.

ADV DE JAGER: How many people were shambokked?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Two of them.

ADV DE JAGER: Who were they?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Mdmase and Mafi.

ADV DE JAGER: Are they still alive?  Mdmase, is he still alive?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: No and I don't know what happened to Mafi but I do hear from other people that he is still alive but Mdmase died.

MS PATEL: Just one point, in your application you state that the incident occurred in 1993, was that a mistake?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: It wasn't a mistake, this thing happened in 1993.

MS PATEL: Your co-applicant in this matter stated that this incident occurred two weeks before the elections in 1994.  Could you explain?

MR SAMUELS: I thought it was Embrose May who said that he attacked a Mozambican citizen in the week of April 1994.

MS PATEL: I'm sorry.
	Just for the record, how old were you at the time that this incident occurred?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: It's better if we start counting all of us because at the moment I'm 22.

MS PATEL: And regarding the people who were disciplined for this incident are you sure that it was only these two people?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes I'm sure, I'm definitely sure about that, it was the only two.

MS PATEL: Was Mdmase inside the house at the time that the women were being raped, can you remember?

KIFUWE MICHAEL NHLAPO: Yes he was inside the house.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Thank you Honourable Chairperson I have no further questions.