Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-12

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I don't know.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Have you read the statement?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Are you aware that Lafras Luitingh was Mr Barnard's handler?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well, you can take it from me that the Louis here is a reference to Mr Luitingh.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry how would you spell that name?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Lafras Luitingh.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, Mr  Barnard is here explaining how he became involved in the Omar matter and this statement is dated the 22nd of November 1989.  He says that - maybe if you can just - I will read it into the record.
"... In the beginning of May 1989 I received an instruction in the post box, along with R4 000-00.  I had to fly to Cape Town in order to gather information with regard to Adv Dullah Omar."
	Now, there are two inconsistencies here with what you have to say.  Firstly,  Mr Barnard is saying in this statement, I am aware he has other statements in which he says other things, in this statement he is saying that the instruction to monitor Omar didn't come from you, but came from Louis, otherwise known as Lafras Luitingh.  What do you have to say about that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot dispute that, I do not know whether that was the case.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, but why can't you comment on that, because surely at the time that you ask Mr Barnard to monitor Mr Omar, which on your version is in June 1989, Mr Barnard if he had already been monitoring Omar, on the instructions of Louis, is going to say to you "but Mr van Zyl, I am already working on Omar through somebody else in the organisation"?  So you would obviously know something about it, if it was true?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: If that is true, I should not know about it.  That is the interpretation of Mr Barnard in his statement and I can tell you that I met Ferdi, I only gave him instruction which he received in a post box with money, and if he received instructions from Lafras Luitingh, also to work on Mr Dullah Omar, then I do not have any knowledge of it, he never mentioned it to me.

CHAIRPERSON: If one takes this statement that has just been read out by Mr Kahanovitz, your discussion with Mr Barnard would have been what, about September or so?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It was in the beginning or towards the end of June, because June 1989 he went to Cape Town for the first time.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I must have made a mistake, because I thought that the approval for the operation came roundabout April and then Peaches took four or five months without any report back, you'd got the money,  you put the R10 000-00 in your safe and then there was, I think, didn't you say there was a period of four or five months and then you started getting worried about Peaches and then you approached  Mr Barnard?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So that would take it from April, five months would be at least September?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so Mr Chairperson.   Factually how it happened was that Ferdi for the first time, in July went to Cape Town, although the project was approved in April and thereafter he went in August and once again in September, so in other words from April to July when I sent him down for the first time, May, June, July, is three months approximately.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl, who is the first person who was connected  with Region 6, that the Police started looking for, do you remember?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes, the first person of Region 6, I do not regard Mr Barnard as an aware member of Region 6.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Let me ask, let me cut this short, do you know who Commissioner Jumbo Smit is from the Namibian Police?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Are you aware of the fact that he arrested Donald Aitcheson in Windhoek?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I am aware of it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You are aware that Mr Aitcheson gave him certain information about South Africans who he had been in contact with?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I am not aware of the information that was given.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I am going to tell you what Jumbo Smit said, was that he was given, Aitcheson was given the name of a person with a pager, that he had to make contact with from time to time and the name turned out to be a false name, however, on further investigation it turned out that the payments for that pager, were being made from Mr Barnard's account, which is why, how Jumbo Smit traced Ferdi Barnard in the first instance, are you aware of that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I am not.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, of the people who are sitting here today, who, isn't it so that Mr Barnard was the first person that the Police, and here I am talking about the Namibian Police and the South African Police, started looking for?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: He was the first person who was arrested.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You are aware no doubt then that Mr Barnard made a statement in which he tried to protect certain members of Region 6?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It may be.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl, not may be, because you would no doubt be aware that in that statement, Mr Barnard tried to blame certain things that you had done, on this so-called Louis, in order to protect you?  Do you recall that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Chairperson, up to today, I have not read the statement of Ferdi, I did not regard it as important.  What he did in his Section 29 statement, I do not regard it as important.

MR KAHANOVITZ: How could you possibly not regard it as important, it was through Mr Barnard's arrest and his involvement with you, that you came to find yourself in detention eventually?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Barnard was arrested and he actually implicated Calla Botha and Calla Botha actually implicated me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But Mr Barnard could most certainly have implicated you?  Could, correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He knew an awful lot about you, correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is true.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The fact of the matter is, now you read it, he did not implicate you in the first instance, correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Where did he not implicate me?

MR KAHANOVITZ: The reason he did not implicate you is because he supplied the Police with false information, blaming things that you had done, on somebody else.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Then you have to point this out to me.  If you are insinuating that he tried to protect me by saying that Lafras Luitingh gave him money in a post box and so forth, I don't know, maybe he did receive an instruction, maybe he lied to me, I would not know, I think you should put that question to him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The gist of what Mr Barnard says about the Omar incident is that the project was being run by the so-called Louis, not by you?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I don't know, I cannot comment on that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you never had any discussions with Mr Barnard after he came out of Section 29 detention, to say "hallo Mr Barnard, what did you tell the Police, I need to know, I need to know whether I've got to be worried"?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: When I was detained in terms of Section 29, Ferdi Barnard was still in detention, and then he came out and I came out and I think the first time I saw him, the first time, I don't think I saw him at the Harms Commission, I did not contact him or go to him, I did not deem it necessary.
	Honestly, I did not need it because I was speaking the truth, that is why.  And I think the first time that I saw Ferdi was with the Webster post-mortem 	inquest that was held.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What made you think that Mr Barnard hadn't implicated you?  You gave evidence five minutes ago, saying that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I did not say that I thought that Barnard did not implicate me.  I know that he made certain statements and I know that Ferdi was involved in the monitoring of the Omar project, so he must have implicated me in that regard.  I did not tell you that he did not implicate me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What was Lafras Luitingh's job in the CCB?