Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: If I remember correctly, Mr Mpshe, Mr Chairman or my attorney or both, I'm not sure.  But I may say Mr Chairman that I share your misgivings - in relation to Mr Visser he is really established a means of communications which is very difficult and my attorney has had considerable trouble.  I believe that Mr de Waal has only recently been traced by the investigation officer that investigated the criminal trial against the two applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe can you throw any light and tell us something more definite?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairman, thank you.  Mr Chairman as regards to Mr Visser as the Chair and the honourable Committee will most probably remember, he was warned last time when we were in Pretoria and after the adjournment sometime during the end of last year, he telephoned me and he informed me that he had made an application to the Legal Aid and the application for Legal Aid assistance had been turned down and I informed him that he need not worry, he will get representation and he promised me that he would be available but only to my surprise I learned this morning that he said he wants his lawyer.  I spoke to him during the tea break - no, before the lunch break on the phone and he said he was insistent that he wants his lawyer and he has made an application to the Legal Aid.  I reminded him that your application was turned down, he said no, he has now made an appeal to higher authorities in the Legal Aid Board so he is going to get legal assistance.  So I informed him to be here tomorrow at eight o'clock and he agreed that he will be here tomorrow at eight o'clock with or without a lawyer.
	And as far as Mr de Waal, we were not in a position to trace Mr de Waal - we were requested to do so by the firm represented by Advocate Bizos.  We only succeeded due to the assistance given to us by Captain Holmes, Holmes the investigator in the criminal matter.  I was enabled then during lunchtime to speak to Mr de Waal - or to telephone Mr De Waal - I did so, he was not in, I spoke to the wife and the wife said no, he is available, he will inform him to be here tomorrow morning at eight o'clock and to request him to call me.  So I'm still expecting him to call me back but I can say by tomorrow Visser and Mr de Waal will make themselves available.  
	Inasfar as Mr Adrian Clark is concerned Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, there's nothing I can say about this man - I've tried all my level best to track him down on a smallholding in Pretoria.  I was told he has moved, we tracked him down ultimately in Krugersdorp and whenever I call his house the phone will be answered by the wife and if it's not the wife, the phone will not be answered at all.  Up till now, we do not know whether he is still available or not.

CHAIRPERSON: The enthusiasm displayed on his behalf seems to indicate what is going to happen.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll have to adjourn until tomorrow.

JUDGE WILSON: I think so.

CHAIRPERSON: How certain is it that Mr Clarke will be available tomorrow?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman I spoke to him personally and I told him that he was required to be here tomorrow and he agreed he will be here tomorrow morning at half past eight to see Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...[inaudible] I want to examine him, I don't want to see him.

MR PRINSLOO: But Mr Chairman, I just want to put in on record that we were requested by Mr Bizos to assist him and via other people we were able to find out where he was and that's why we then reported to Mr Bizos the lunch adjournment and we were under the impression ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: This is not a trial in which witnesses take sides - they're not my witnesses or your witnesses, this is an enquiry and if a man comes to give evidence, he's giving evidence to this Committee.

GEORGE BIZOS: I have been told "this is your witness and this is your witnesses and this is your witness" I may not want to identify my clients with one or other of these persons, Mr Chairman, they're under an obligation to give evidence to the Commission if they have relevant information or if the applicants want that so that I agree fully with respect that they are not anyone's witnesses and I certainly don't want to speak to Mr Clarke privately, Mr Chairman, I want him to be examined.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, can you be of assistance in this regard?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, inasfar as Mr Adrian Clarke is concerned?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, no I can't give you any assistance, as I say I've tried to locate him, I've failed myself.

JUDGE WILSON: If he comes here tomorrow morning will you speak to him?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Oh, speak to him yes, I can do that - that is one of my obligations Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, it seems that one can't avoid delays in this hearing.  We've spent a lot of time with this hearing and I am reluctant that we should be spending any more time doing nothing.  However, just for once, this is probably the last time, that I will agree to postpone this hearing at all.  I'm now going to adjourn this hearing until 9.30 tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS