Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : The order which I received was to establish a road-block and that he wanted to see corpses;  that the target group was the ANC, SACP Alliance members.

MR DREYER: : What I'm saying is that the only aspect of your order which was connected to loss of life was:  `I want to see corpses.'

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.

MR DREYER: : And that followed you through the entire operation until that point?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.

MR DREYER: : And this Sir, you did upon the conviction of a man who ...(indistinct).   ...(indistinct) everything.   I want you to repeat this.   You followed through what you thought he had said and what he received from Generals and staff.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.

MR DREYER: : Therefore, you did not act according to a direct order from General Oelofse but according to your interpretation of what you thought he said.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : No that's not what I'm saying.

MR DREYER: : Would you like us to rewind that for you?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : You can rewind it if you want to but what I want to say is that General Oelofse issued a direct order to me, in which he said: `Go and establish a road-block, identify ANC, SACP Alliance members and I want to see corpses.'   That is what I have consistently said throughout my statements.

MR DREYER: : And he didn't tell you to establish the road-block tonight;  he didn't tell you to hold it tonight at the Radora Crossing?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : No, he said the revolution begins today.

MR DREYER: : I want to read paragraph 14 of your Application to you.   General Oelofse gave the order to me and he said `This is the real McCoy or that now is the real McCoy,' and he said that we in area 9 had to initiate the revolution.   Am I correct, is that how your application reads?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.

MR DREYER: : I beg your pardon Chairperson.   This is on page 10 of the paginated papers of I think its volume 1, and it's paragraph 14 of his Application.   I will read it to you once more.   General Oelofse gave the order to me and said that now is the real McCoy and that we in area 9 must initiate the revolution.   Is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.

MR DREYER: : Well how does that form a line with your evidence before the Committee that this was not a revolution that had to begin in area 9, Randfontein, but that in fact it was a national country-wide revolution of the AWB, which was aimed at the ANC, SACP Alliance, and that that evening of the 12th, all the area commanders were called together in order to co-ordinate this country-wide revolution.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : If you will read the paragraph further, you will find it there.

MR DREYER: : Sir, please, I am not asking you to read the paragraph any further, I am merely contrasting your versions.

CHAIRPERSON: : How can you say that, if what stands further on is going to throw light on what you are reading, why shouldn't you refer to it?   If there is anything further on which can throw light on what the Advocate has read to you, please bring our attention to it, so that we can read that sentence in its proper context.  Is there any further sentence you wanted to refer to Mr Kloppers?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : If I read the entire paragraph 14...

CHAIRPERSON: : You must just remember that the question was, in your evidence you are saying that the revolution was to start all over the country, but the sentence which the Advocate has read to you suggests that it was only you, in area 9, who had to start with the revolution.

MS VAN DER WALT: : Mr Kloppers, I understand that you have  paragraph 12 in mind, in order to see to the context of the paragraph which you are studying.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.   Let us look at paragraph 12 on page 9.   The meeting was addressed by General Oelofse and he told us that the revolution must begin on the day, the 12th of December 1994.   The Generals and staff gave orders that the revolution should begin on that day, country-wide.

MR BRINK: : Mr Chairman, I think there is a typing error in that - 12th December 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: : Well Mr Dreyer, we have paragraph 12 which clearly states that the revolution was to start all over the country, and we then have the opening sentence being paragraph 14, which says what it says.   I don't know what you want to make out of that.

MR DREYER: : Mr Chairman, the point is that in paragraph 12 it is in fact stated that it should start national, on a national basis, but I cannot really then see how that is to be interpreted in terms of what is stated in section 14, and it is my submission that there's a contradiction.   So it is for the witness and the applicant to point out that there is a contradiction and if he can explain that, then gladly I would afford him the opportunity to do so.   This is not my version with the greatest of respect, Mr Chairperson;  this is his application before this Committee and every time he is brought to a corner, and every time he is confronted with something which does not keep in line and detracts from his evidence, he is either assisted by his legal representative who takes the blame for that for stating something wrong, or he tries to give a circumventing answer to that.   That is my point.

CHAIRPERSON: : Well, I am not sure whether ... I don't to debate the validity of your statement, which is too broad and too ... (indistinct).   All we can do now is to deal with what... with the question with which we are concerned.   Mr Kloppers, I am sorry.   It is being put to you that well and good, paragraph 12 speaks of revolution throughout the country, but paragraph 14, the first sentence, seems to suggest that this revolution was only going to take place within area 9?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.   I do not always have my words correct.   In this case I presented certain documents to the Amnesty Committee, in which it would appear that the country-wide revolution was supposed to begin on the 12th of December.

CHAIRPERSON: : Mr Dreyer, the first sentence... No I don't think it can necessarily be interpreted to suggest that the revolution was only to take place in area 9.   I don't think you can read it that way only.

MR DREYER: : Mr Chairman, I have never indicated that it was only to start there.   I was merely working towards the contradiction and if I would have been afforded the opportunity to proceed at that stage, I would have obviously confronted him with paragraph 12, to point out the contradiction but before that, obviously, the proceedings took another direction.   But my question is still valid to him.  I said his evidence in this Committee was throughout, that it was to be a once well planned and a simultaneous action to have been started all over the country.   Now in paragraph 14, and I would like to stress the word `begin' in the third line.  It states:  General Oelofse gave the task to me and said that now this is the real McCoy and that we in area 9 must begin the revolution.'   Now his evidence before this Committee throughout was that it would have been a national coordinated and simultaneous revolution by the AWB, not that it would have been started in the Randfontein area and then sort of ...

CHAIRPERSON: : I don't see any contradiction in that because the interpretation you are placing, or what difference the first sentence in paragraph 14 says;  is not... is quite capable of being reconciled with paragraph 12.   I don't see any contradiction there.