Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 2000-02-16

ME DEHAL: Do you know whether the second applicant, Falake, was involved in this incident relating to the attack on your uncle?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: As far as I know, he was not present.  I was informed that he arrived later when my uncle had already been attacked.

ME DEHAL: Yes.  Now if I may just take you back to lastly the 25th, the day on which the incidents occurred for which you are seeking amnesty, can you briefly detail how it occurred that these people whose deaths occurred, came to be attacked by you and the comrades under you?  What gave rise to the problem?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: I would begin on the 24th.

ME DEHAL: No, I think we've dealt with the 24th.  We've gone through your letter on that.

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: Okay.

ME DEHAL: And those details are fairly sufficient.  We've also dealt with the 25th and the number of persons that died and the clash between the chiefs and yourselves.  Just to get to the point of saying precisely how on the 25th, from that morning, what happened and how it happened.

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: Okay.  On that day we left our camp which was a farm because by that time most houses had been burnt.  There was a problem that some of our comrades were missing after being attacked.  I had sent Martials to go and check if it was safe to return to our camp and we were informed that it was safe, so we returned.  On our way, I instructed them to go check along the way if there were dead bodies along the way seeing that there were people missing.  The first person we came across was Dolly Ngwane.  She was around 14 years of age.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Dehal I think that you've led evidence that this was part of this on-going war.  If you look at the bundle, even the Attorney-General of the province at that stage, accepted that these murders were associated with a political objective.  Nobody has attacked it so far, so I - unless somebody would dispute that, I think as far as I'm concerned, I'm satisfied that these were deeds associated with a political objective so I don't think whether you should labour it any more, unless if we've got problems we'll ask questions about it.

ME DEHAL: I'm indebted to you, Mr de Jager, in fact I support and endorse those sentiments.  The only reservation, the reason that necessitated this testimony is that the Evidence Leader drew to my attention that the victims would like to hear in the own words of the applicant how it happened, so I think it's sufficiently covered actually.  Thank you.  Mr Madlala, that would conclude your application for amnesty and if there's something you haven't dealt with on any given point, on any aspect that you now seek to address on which we haven't dealt with, then you can deal with those, but I think we've dealt with all the aspects, haven't we?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: Yes.

ME DEHAL: Thank you.  That is the evidence.  Sorry.

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: Maybe for the benefit of the victims, would it not be proper to go through the 25th in detail?

ME DEHAL: Well, we've dealt with it as per your letter which has sufficient details for the present.  I think if you are cross-examined or questioned by the Evidence Leader for specific details, perhaps at that occasion we can deal with it.

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Counsel for the objectors, the dependants, he is present, he may wish to ask questions and you can then give the answers at that stage, if he requires the answers to those questions.  Alright?

ME DEHAL: Thank you, Sir.  So that concludes the evidence for this applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ME DEHAL: Thank you Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DEHAL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Harkoo.

MR HARKOO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR HARKOO: I just want one point of clarification.  Mr Madlala, you'll accept that your attack on these persons on the 25th, was basically an attack that was against IFP members, but you were not aware precisely who those persons were at that point in time.  Is that correct?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: When we attacked, we directed the attacks to the IFP members, but we didn't have a list of names as to who, but we were attacking IFP members and we knew very well that there wasn't a single person who wasn't IFP.

MR HARKOO: Yes.  At the same time, it may very well have been that those members were in fact not necessarily perpetrators of violence.  While they may have supported the IFP, they may have been members of the IFP, but those persons, the deceased or those that were injured in that attack, were not necessarily perpetrators of violence, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: You mean violence the previous day?

MR HARKOO: Violence the previous day ...

CHAIRPERSON: Or on previous occasions?

MR HARKOO: Or on previous occasions.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand the question?  On the 25th when you attacked people whom you knew to be IFP, was it because of their involvement on the attack on the UDF the previous day, or was it because of their previous attacks on members of the UDF on other occasions?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: Let me just clarify there as to what happened.  In the morning I got a report from the martials.  I was told that IFP was getting ready to attack us.  I reported this matter to the police, who came to fetch the bodies and police said they didn't have manpower.  There were people who were armed and they were ready to attack and I said to the comrades:  "We mustn't wait for them to come and attack us, we must go first."  To say that we were just guessing and that we attacked the wrong people, I'm saying even though some of them didn't attack us, but most people who were there were IFP members and they were the attackers.

MR HARKOO: Thank you.  That is all.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: And another thing also that I want to clarify here.  We're not talking about violence which took place in the middle of the night, we're talking about the violence that took place during the day.  This happened during the day, not in the night.

CHAIRPERSON: On both sides there were women and children who were attacked, is that correct?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: It was common knowedge that IFP attacks indiscriminate and also they were burning down houses.  We did the same on the 25th.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand.  No further questions?

MR HARKOO: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HARKOO

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions you have?

MR MAPOMA: I have no questions Chairperson, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: What are you by occupation?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: I was working in a factory.

CHAIRPERSON: What kind of work?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: I was a machine operator in that firm.

CHAIRPERSON: Machine for making what?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: To make the springs which are used in beds and lounge suites.

CHAIRPERSON: What level of education have you had?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: I am still studying, but I do have matric.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you married and do you have children?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: I do have a fiancee and children as well.  One and the other one passed away.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the relationship between you and your father now?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: We love each other very well.  I don't think we will ever be in conflict.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Just hold on.

MR SIBANYONI: As an ANC leader, I'm just asking for the benefit of the Panel which is sitting in one of these matters, did you assist any of the people at Westville to complete their application forms?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: We had a meeting, leadership of the ANC and IFP.  We applied, most of them did so.  I am still the Chairperson of the ANC in prison and I did so.

MR SIBANYONI: Are there any of the applicants which you completed the forms in your handwriting?

TOM JABULANI MADLALA: I think three of them because my attorney requested me to help him.

MR SIBANYONI: Are there any of them who are present during this week here?