Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

ADV BOOYENS: Paragraph 4, page 318, you say that the 
importance of an effective intelligence network, you refer to that 
and then you define what you mean by an effective intelligence 
network, perhaps you should explain to us, you talk about 
associates, what do you mean by that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairman, associates would act as go- 
betweens between the agent and the handler.  And in my case, as is 
well known in Port Elizabeth, I made specific use of associates to 
deal with the agents for me in order to protect their identities.

ADV BOOYENS: So an associate would be a civilian person who 
is well disposed towards you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: As far as the source is concerned, would the 
source necessarily always have known that he was working for the 
Security Police or would he sometimes be under the impression that 
he was working for MI6 or the CIA or something like that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: The agent wouldn't know that he was working 
for the Security Branch.

ADV BOOYENS: Were the sources sometimes deliberately brought 
under the impression that they were working for some of the other 
intelligence agencies that I have referred to?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: You are talking about agents there as well, those 
are underground policemen, policemen who act as underground 
spies?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you also make use of them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: You also relate physical sources, those are 
informers?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Non-physical sources, would that be technology 
for instance?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Interception, monitoring, interception of post, 
etc.  That type of situation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: The existence of an intelligence network, did 
that depend on the existence of these people, in other words could 
you gather intelligence if you did not have these kind of people to 
work for you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, we would not be able to.

ADV BOOYENS: You refer to the fact that it often takes quite a 
long time to recruit reliable sources and agents and associates, is 
that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Yes, most people wouldn't make an immediate 
decision to work for you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Then you say that in 1988 a need was identified 
and in 1989 the intelligence operation was established.  You say that 
on page 318, paragraph 5?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You mention that there was a real fear amongst 
associates, agents, sources and informers that they were not assured 
of sufficient protection as far as their identity and security was 
concerned?  So there was a problem in that regard?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Your local Security Policemen, such as yourself, 
could not do the work of the agents and informers, because you 
were well-known?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Paragraph 7, the exposure of members and 
informers, they were intimidated and murdered?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: It was also the declared policy of the liberation 
alliance?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: As far as the identity of informers were 
concerned, do you think that there would still be some antagonism 
to some of these people if they were still alive?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: You were present here last week during an 
application when there was reference to a certain informer?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: I saw it on a poster which was displayed here.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: There was a lady in front of the building here, 
saying that the identity of the informer should be revealed?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: In paragraph 8 you deal with the fact that 
violence had escalated?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: We now are moving towards the 1988/1989 era?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: In paragraph 9, you deal with the so-called 
operating facility.  You already mentioned the fact that that is where 
you had your administrative centre and that that was not at the 
police station as such.  You made use of other premises for your 
intelligence business?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And safe houses and premises, those would be 
places normally used to debrief agents, informers and such?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You mention in paragraph 10, something which 
is probably very well known, that intelligence services throughout 
the world, make use of cover operations such as these?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: In paragraph 11, page 321, in July 1989, you 
came to the conclusion that there was a leak, an intelligence leak 
from the Security Branch, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Even before this happened, you had some 
suspicion that there could be problems?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: And it related with an operation in Swaziland.  
Please try and keep it as brief as possible, but please tell us what the 
situation was.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: At that stage we had a trained cadre in 
detention and we were busy interrogating him and he was supposed 
to make contact with the other members of his cell to infiltrate and I 
made use of that opportunities, the four deceased were also present 
during that interrogation.
	The trained person then wrote a letter for me in which he 
made contact with the contact person in Swaziland and I used a 
source as a courier to hand over this letter and the objective was 
that the ANC would give him the weapons with the view to the 
establishment of a DLB internally and to be able to exercise control 
over that.

ADV BOOYENS: You sent the source in?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, the source was sent in.  Later I learnt that 
he had been detained in Quatro.

ADV BOOYENS: Now Quatro is an ANC camp in Angola?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Were they detained and interrogated spies and 
people like that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: This source came known to the other side on one 
or other way and you said it was you yourself and the four deceased 
who were involved.  Did anybody else from your side know about 
this?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Nobody else knew.

ADV BOOYENS: This was the first instance, this was before 1989, 
is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Can you remember when this was?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was 1988.

ADV BOOYENS: This was the first indication, not even the first, 
but did you start realising then around July 1989 that there were 
problems with the intelligence network at the Security Branch?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Can you mention other examples?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I can.  I know of two instances where Mr 
Mgoduka was present where he acted as my associate and we 
recruited a person under false pretences.   And later he was 
necklaced.  In another instance, it happened in the same way.
	It happened in Lesotho.  He was murdered there and I had the 
suspicion that the information was conveyed to the ANC.

ADV BOOYENS: You mention this agent's name.  Was that 
because he was shot dead?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: The name is Mtoto Mbali.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: In both cases Mgoduka was with you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Were there any of your colleagues that 
complained that the effectiveness of the intelligence was not good 
any more?