Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is what I believed and that is what I still believe.

MR WILLS: Yes.  My question is that it seems to me likely that if somebody doesn't co-operate, then the chances are they're going to receive a bit of a hiding in order to get them to co-operate.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: So in that regard, you must have at least foreseen the possibility of her being assaulted when she was taken for interrogation?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: There was a possibility that she could have been assaulted.

MR WILLS: And you knew that at the time you arrested her and you were, as you were taking her to this torture chamber.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It did not occur to me.

MR WILLS: What occurred to you?  What did you think was going to happen to her?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I knew that she would be interrogated.

MR WILLS: And that the possibility was that she would be assaulted during that interrogation?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That was a possibility.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see any sjambok at all in the office or in the room where it was?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Did you see a length of black piping in that room?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Did you go into the room prior to her interrogation commencing?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I was in that room previously, but upon my arrival at the premises, I did not enter the room.

MR WILLS: Where was Mr Taylor when you arrived?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot recall.  I cannot recall whether he stood outside or where it was that I met him.

MR WILLS: So your evidence is to the effect that you - sorry I withdraw that question.  You'd been out, one must imagine for some hours, away from that place that day prior to you returning with Khubeka?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: So you cannot say what was or wasn't in that room, or what had been brought into that room in the intervening period?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Did you go into the room at all during the interrogation?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I was never present during the interrogation.

MR WILLS: Was there any particular reason for that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Shortly after I arrived and delivered the person, as I have stated, I departed.  It would seem as if you're uncertain as to the reason why you departed, or am I mistaken?  Why did you depart?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I went to deal with other duties and also to buy food.

MR WILLS: What food did you buy?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot recall.

MR WILLS: Did you buy food for the detainee?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I assume so.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say you went to buy food, were you going to buy food for everyone who was sleeping, for all the C1 members, was this a - or were you just getting take-always?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I assume that it was take-away meals, food for those people who were there, or those who wanted food.

MR LAX: But Mr du Preez, that would have entailed you knowing how many people to buy for, what each one might want.  It would be something that you would have taken specific instructions on, you wouldn't have just gone to buy a "klomp wegneemetes", as one would put it, you would have known.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, in this specific case, I cannot recall precisely what I bought, but usually we would buy Kentucky or if there were 10 persons, it would be 10 hamburgers.  So I cannot recall specifically what I bought.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go alone when you went for the food, or did you go with somebody?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot recall.

MR LAX: Sorry, just while we're on this thing, you went to go and do other duties you say, in your summary of your evidence here, the written summary.  I have canvassed this with you already a little bit, yet you can't remember what those other duties are.  Have I understood you correctly?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR LAX: Well if you can't remember what those other duties are, how can you remember at all that you even went to do other duties?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the reason why I recall is because I was away from the place and when I returned, upon my arrival there Botha informed me that Khubeka had died and I was very surprised about it and the reason why I say this, that I know that I was away, is because I arrived back at the place and Botha informed me about Khubeka who had died.

MR LAX: ...one iota of a clue as to why you remember you went to do other duties.  All you know is that you left the place and you came back, but you don't know what you did, you don't even know if  you went to buy food, you don't even know if somebody else was with you or not, do you see my point?  You don't remember what you did, so how can you be so sure you went to go and do other duties?  That's the point I'm trying to understand.  If you simply said, "I left, I don't know what I did and I came back" that would be find, I would accept your evidence, in that sense is would make sense to me, but now you insist that you went to do other duties and you can't explain what you did or give me a reason how you know those were other duties.  Do you see my point?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I understand.

MR LAX: ...maybe.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Mr Chairperson, I cannot recall specifically what I went to do.

CHAIRPERSON: You might have gone home to your family.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: With me it was an assumption that I went to do other things.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  My experience of the military is that the lower ranking persons are sent to do the menial tasks like collecting food and the commissioned officers, as you are, are to do the serious work.  Isn't that usually the case?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So were you frequently asked to go and get food?  I think you were a Lieutenant in those days?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.  There were not specific duties for specific persons and I did not regard it as inferior to go out to buy food or to perform any other duty.

MR WILLS: Now, you say it was dusk at the time you arrested the deceased?  Then it would take, I would estimate, knowing where Winkelspruit is, probably half an hour to drive - was it dark when you arrived?  We're looking at winter time, autumn/winter?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I recall that it was already far into dusk, or almost dark when we arrived at the place.

MR WILLS: Are you able to give a time?  6 o'clock, or 7 o'clock, or anything like that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: How long were you away before you returned?  How many hours, minutes, seconds?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I don't know, I cannot give you an exact time.

MR WILLS: Are you able to say whether it was more than an hour, or less than an hour?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I really cannot tell you.

MR WILLS: Now when you arrived there, who put the deceased into the torture chamber?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, who said it was a torture chamber?

CHAIRPERSON: It hasn't been referred to as a torture chamber, but I think it was referred to as a room or a storeroom.

MR WILLS: Possibly I can use the word interrogation, if that makes my learned friend feel more comfortable?

MR VISSER: The evidence was it was a storeroom into which she was taken, Mr Chairman, that was the evidence.

MR WILLS: The evidence is also it's a place where she was severely beaten and she died in.