Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

JUDGE WILSON: : They seem to have passed the buck to somebody else, they've not gone to the place and walked up and down the street asking people if they were still living there.

ATTORNEY: It did seem the impression that I get is that they went to the police station, perused their police docket and made some enquiries and even got in touch with the then witness Mr Ndzeku who is the mayor there who also tried to assist them in tracing the next of kin but unfortunately that was unsuccessful as well.   That is the distance that they travelled.

JUDGE WILSON: : Has your request been put to the audience Mr De Jager, that is if there is anybody here who knows?

ATTORNEY: Sorry Mr Chairman can I do this via Mr Ndzeku who is the mayor of the area, I will consult with him and make him make this known because the audience here is not the audience from that area, this is the local audience.   He is the best person who can convey this to the people in that area.   I am not divulging from my (indistinct) but I thought it would be most apposite to deal with it because he is the mayor in that area, if that is permitted.

CHAIRPERSON: : Mr Mpshe I'm not going to ask you to address at this stage because it is possible that there may be other witnesses that the Committee might want to hear subject to
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88	P LEBONA
what you have to say on this point, and that is there has been a great deal of evidence of police harassment and police collusion with groups operating in townships.   Do you have any facts before you that would negative that kind of evidence?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : No.

CHAIRPERSON: : Do you have any attitude on the matter as to what weight has to be attached to this kind of allegation about police working in collusion with illegal elements and gangsters and so on?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman I do not have specific attitude pertaining to this type of a matter, that is these matters, but the attitude that I may be having will be of a general nature which I do not think will be of any assistance to this Committee as to what happens generally outside.

JUDGE WILSON: : Have the police been notified that such allegations are expected, have they been asked to comment or given the opportunity to comment?

ATTORNEY: Mr Chairman the report that I tabled yesterday from the investigative unit, one of the paragraphs states that because of the absence of the case docket, they could not formulate as to the attitude of the police towards the activists, and as such they could not make out what actually was happening in that area, save that there was a fight or a skirmish between the vigilante and the activists.   That is how far the investigative unit could report.

CHAIRPERSON: : The Committee will take a short adjournment at this stage to consider one or two aspects.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: : ...formed that relatives of the deceased in this matter may be or can be traced and made available.
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ATTORNEY: Mr Chairman I just want to place this on record that as a result of information received during the short adjournment, the next of kin to David Majeko, the next of kin being the mother as well as the sister, these are available and can be caused to attend the hearing.   They are presently in Kusong township.   Mr Chairman I have caused, or I have enlisted the services of the SAPS to go and fetch the mother as well as the sister and as I am talking now they have left for the same.

CHAIRPERSON: : Thank you very much.   Obviously you are not in a position to give us any indication as to when we can resume with this particular case?

ATTORNEY: Mr Chairman correctly so, I am not in a position to state that and that furthermore I have caused a letter to be written which is about to be despatched to the Kusong and/or Carltonville police station calling upon the policemen whose names were mentioned in evidence also to be present.   As such Mr Chairman we are not in a position to close this matter at this time.

CHAIRPERSON: : The Committee has had a preliminary discussion in this regard and it has been suggested and agreed by members of the Committee that in all future applications where you know beforehand that allegations of police involvement are going to be made by witnesses, that due notice is given to the relevant police authorities that this is what is likely to be said and that they are afforded an opportunity to be present at the hearing or make representations in whichever way they like, so that things may run a little more smoothly in future.   In future it should be said to General Fivaz himself and let him attend to deciding who should represent him at these hearings.   As
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far as the present application is concerned, we will defer further discussion until we're in a position to know whether witnesses are available and maybe at the end of the day or perhaps at the beginning of the next hearing tomorrow morning, we may be able to decide whether we should postpone altogether a further consideration of this application to enable the police to make adequate representation or arrive at some other decision.   ...to the policemen's names who have been mentioned may not serve the desired purpose, they may very well want a transcript of the evidence to know what is being said about them and then take legal advice on it before they decide to appear.   It seems that the proper thing to do would be, apart from serving notice on them or notifying them, the proper thing to do would be to send the letter to the police Commissioner, the General Commissioner and leave it in his hands.   That having been said, we will now hold in abeyance the hearing of further evidence in the present applications and may we now proceed with the next application if we are ready to do so?   Before doing so, I think I should announce that we are happy to have with us Professor Meiring and Professor Mgwasa of the Rehabilitation and Reparation's Committee who are sitting here and who have been with us since this morning.   At some stage where you Mr Mpshe become aware of the fact that there might be individuals giving evidence who might require the attention of the Rehabilitation and Reparation's Committee, that they should be told that the representatives of the Committee are here and can be contacted through you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Thank you Mr Chairman that will be done.   Mr Chairman the next witness that are to come in the application of Lebona, Lekitlana and Bosakwe, Mr Chairman I
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want to mention from the onset that the next of kin in these applications, the deceased is the same, Nglameni, and the father to the deceased is available, Mr Charles Nglameni.   I have tried this morning before we could start to get Mr Charles Nglameni available through the services of Captain Odendaal of the Orkney, of the Ganana police station.   Captain Odendaal has gone to Mr Charles Nglameni to fetch him but they reported that he relayed back to me via Captain Willem of this place is Mr Charles Nglameni is not at his house right now but they are going to look for him and when they find him he will be brought.   What I am trying to say is that the next of kin also in the three applications is presently not in here but he will be available today.   Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: : Very well we will now with their application and that is Messrs Lebona, Solomon and Busakwe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Chairperson, the applicant before the Committee will give his evidence in Sesotho and Setswana.   Can he be sworn in please?
PETER LEBONA (ss)
EXAMINATION BY ATTORNEY

<UNKNOWN>: : Thank you Chairperson.    Mr Lebona according to your application before this Committee you were a member of the African National Congress in the period of 1991, is that correct?

ANSWER: That's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : The capacity in which you served was the one of the ANC marshall?