Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-25

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Quite often.  Quite often, I have sometimes difficult, found it difficult to find the smaller bones of the hand, because they are rather small and you can get clogs of sand, which may be larger than these, so you may mistake it for a clog of sand and discard it, inadvertently.

CHAIRPERSON: So you've got, the fact that these pictures show a lack of hands, it doesn't disturb you at all, it doesn't make you suspicious that the hands were chopped off or anything like that?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Again, one will have to draw a conclusion with the complete autopsy or complete examination.

CHAIRPERSON: So, Dr Naidoo would ...

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Yes, he would.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that.  I think you have been hijacked quite a lot here with questions.

MR LAX: Just one last question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Just one last thing, and that is in relation, did you have any doubt in your mind that the body in that plastic had come from that coffin?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: No, I had no doubt.  The coffin and the bag would have been in close proximity and as I said, I reached that at a depth of little over a metre, 1050 m, and I had no doubt there was co-mingling of bodies.  That is what I was referring to earlier on.

MR LAX: There was no evidence of that?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: No.

MR LAX: Was there any evidence that the grave site itself went deeper than that?  In other words, that there might have been another body in the same grave for example?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: We dug until we came to this coffin, when the coffin was disintegrated, we removed the contents, we did not go any further, so I would not be able to answer that question.

MR LAX: Yes, because from the little bit of experience that I have had with these matters, one can tell the difference between soil that has been disturbed, in which something is buried, and when you hit so-called "virgin soil"?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Yes.  I didn't test further.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Are there any questions arising out of questions that have been put by Members of the Panel?  Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Yes Chairperson, I was afraid I was going to put this very point to Dr Naidoo, but it has now been raised with this witness, so I'd better ask him the questions now.
	I am told Doctor, that it is reasonably standard practice in this country, that more than one body, up to three in fact, are buried in paupers' graves, could you agree with that?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: I was not aware of that, no.

MR VISSER: This body that you exhumed, you exhumed at one metre?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: 1050 mm, yes.

MR VISSER: What is the normal depth of a grave?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: It may vary.

MR VISSER: Yes sure, but what is the normal depth of a grave?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Well, the well known figure is six feet, two metres.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Didn't you find it surprising to find this body at 1050 m?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: No, I have exhumed other bodies at similar depths in farms, where bodies were interred by the family.

MR VISSER: You see, but that is the difference, you see, that is a farm.  Here we have a government, or we have a service in the, a hearse service in the employ of the government and graves are dug, presumably by government servants who are told how to do it?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Our understanding, or our information concerning pauper burials, as the case may be, is that the, for legal reasons the graves contain only one body and they are numbered, so that in the event of an identification being made by the family, by other means, by photographs or clothing, then the body may be exhumed and returned to the family.
	That is the information we have from the Police at the Gale Street mortuary.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Well, we will just have to hear what the police have to say about that, because as I say, that is my information.
	I am told also that in fact, the reason for that is that it is very expensive, grave sites are very expensive, and in fact, they are at a premium in the sense of availability?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: The other thing pertaining to that question, the gentlemen, Mr J.B. Naidoo and his team of labourers, Mr J.B. Naidoo pointed out the grave to me, the grave site to me, and I would imagine that if there were more than one body buried there, he should have informed us, and there would have been more than one labelled, to that site.

MR VISSER: Well, what label was there to the site, 343?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: There was a tag attached to a length of wire.

MR VISSER: Yes?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: So ...

MR VISSER: And what did it say?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: No, 343.  So in his books, like a curator of a cemetery or an undertaker or a crematorium, they must have records of the contents.

MR VISSER: Yes.

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: So presumably I would have taken it for granted that he would have told me to look for more than one body.

MR VISSER: We thought as well that there must be records, and we asked for the records, but none has been forthcoming.  I am asking you Doctor, if I put to you that there may be one or two bodies below the point where you stopped digging in grave 343, what is your reaction?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: The only thing I am going to have to say is I will have to go in and dig and look.

MR VISSER: Yes.  You don't know?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: No, I don't know.

MR VISSER: It is possible?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Yes.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Any other questions arising?  Thank you very much Dr Aiyer, for your evidence.  You have been most helpful, thank you.  That concludes your testimony, you may stand down.

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, may I please have a two minute adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, a short adjournment?  Are you going to find out about the dressmaker?

MS THABETHE: Yes, I understand she has arrived?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so you just want to have ...

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  We will take a short adjournment at this stage.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.  I would like the Committee members and my learned colleagues to bear some indulgence because I haven't consulted with the dressmaker, so I will take it as I go along.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  What are your full names please?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: My full names?   Marisa Fick-Jordaan.

MARISA FICK-JORDAAN: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.   Mrs Fick-Jordaan, can you please state your qualifications for the record and for the Committee members?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I have a National Diploma in Clothing Design from the Natal Technikon.  In that course we did three years of pattern cutting, three years of garment construction and that was my formal qualification, I also practised for six years as a designer, working with individual clients where patterns were made to fit each body specifically.

MS THABETHE: Sorry, I have missed you, you say you have been in practise for how many years?  Six years?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I practised for six years and studied for three.

MS THABETHE: You were called in today by Ms Debra Quinn to have a look at clothing, a dress, is that correct?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: That is correct.  I was asked to look at three dresses, and take the measurements of those, and in my opinion state whether I thought that there was a discrepancy or whether it looked like the dresses all belonged to the same person.

MS THABETHE: Okay, at this stage maybe, I don't know Mr Chair, would you like to have a look at the dresses that she had a look at.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us what they were, because we have had three dresses before us.

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I picked up the same dresses.