Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I believe that they knew what their task was to 
be, that they had known that in Pretoria already because their 
Commanding Officer would have told them that if the bomb did not 
explode, they had to take further action by shooting the people.  
They didn't ask me, they were only supposed to fulfil an auxiliary 
role.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you point out specific points where they 
would have to post themselves?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, that they observed for themselves.

ADV POTGIETER: What did you mean when you told them that 
the people to be eliminated, had put out feelers to the ANC?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: What I meant was that they had already made 
contact with the ANC.

ADV POTGIETER: In what way?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: In the sense that they had been recruited by a 
member of MK.

ADV POTGIETER: Why didn't you tell them?  Why didn't you tell 
them that the people had been recruited?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: As I said, I didn't go into any detail.  All I said 
was that they had defected, they had put out feelers to the ANC and 
that they were planning to plant a bomb on the 16th, which was the 
commemoration to show solidarity and that they were playing the 
role of double agents.
	And I assumed that they knew what I was referring to.

ADV POTGIETER: No, what I am interested in is what you said 
the feelers that they put out.  You are alleging as a fact in your 
evidence that these people had been recruited and you referred to 
the Commanding Officer who had recruited them, allegedly, 
Mgoduka, who had recruited Mgoduka in any event, but you told 
these people that these people had put out feelers towards the ANC.
	That is something different, if you put out feelers, it is as if 
you are still testing the waters, you are trying to make contact and 
to establish whether you can cooperate with them, isn't that so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV POTGIETER: But if you had been recruited, then you are 
already a part of their structure?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV POTGIETER: So what was the situation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That they had been recruited.

ADV POTGIETER: They had been recruited?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct, yes.

ADV POTGIETER: Ras, Snyman and Vermeulen, did you want to 
mislead them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, that wasn't the intention at all.

ADV POTGIETER: Did you just express yourself incorrectly?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is possible, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that how you expressed yourself to General 
Van Rensburg as well, because - I am asking this because at the end 
of General Van Rensburg, it was unclear to me as it had been from 
your evidence until my colleague to my left asked you, it had not 
been clear to me whether in fact these people had already been 
recruited or were in the process of being recruited by the ANC.  
How did you express yourself to General Van Rensburg?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: If I recall correctly, I told General Van 
Rensburg that the people had been recruited for the ANC and that 
they were planning a certain action for the 16th and I further told 
him that these people, these three, were involved in a sensitive 
operation relating to Goniwe.  That information I got from General 
Gilbert.  And I mentioned the names of all four people.

ADV POTGIETER: You see, the annexure to which you refer on 
page 327 of the record, paragraph 19 of your application, you refer 
to the document of the inquest proceedings in the case of M. Goniwe 
and three others and that record appears on page 498 of our 
documents.
	It is apparently one of the Advocates representing the parties, 
Mr Mostert, at the bottom of page 399, he refers to Jack.  He says 
Jack was what was called an askari.  And then he explains, in other 
words he was a trained ANC activist who at that stage was working 
for the police.
	And he then says but at that stage he had put out feelers to 
return to the ANC fold.  Then the court asks him, you say he had 
put out feelers and then he then says, Mr Mostert then says, he put 
out feelers to return to the ANC fold.  My Lord, as far as Mgoduka 
is concerned, our information is that in respect of Mgoduka too, his 
loyalty was being questioned.  So it is in the same context in which 
reference is made to this inquest.  Reference is there also made to 
the approach to the ANC, putting out feelers as such.
	Now, this extract, could that be corroboration for your 
allegation that these people had contact with the ANC?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: But once again to put out feelers, reference is 
made to putting out of feelers?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV POTGIETER: Was this submission to which you referred us 
in the Goniwe inquest, was that also wrong?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so, yes.

ADV POTGIETER: Why do you then refer us to that in your 
application?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Because I testified there and it was put to me.

ADV POTGIETER: But why do you refer us to an extract which 
says that Mr Jack, the askari, had put out feelers to the ANC and 
that Mr Mgoduka's loyalty was being questioned?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I annexed that as corroboration of the facts  
already sketched.

ADV POTGIETER: But that cannot be corroboration of what you 
allege.  You are saying that the people were recruited?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: But it could have been beforehand, before they 
were actually recruited in the follow up.

ADV POTGIETER: But in your application at page 327, why didn't 
you say I refer you to the record, but that record is wrong, it wasn't 
a question of putting out feelers, the people were actually recruited?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, but that was only at a later stage.

ADV POTGIETER: That what happened?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: When they were recruited.  They went through 
a whole process.  They also had to be screened first before they 
were accepted.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: On the 13th, what time did you leave Pretoria?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: If I remember correctly, it was approximately 
eleven o'clock, twelve o'clock.

ADV DE JAGER: And what time did you arrive at Port Elizabeth?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I think it was about 10, 12 hours' journey, so it 
would have been round about eight o'clock in the evening.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey, can I just for clarity, when you put 
questions to the witness, you put it to him that Mr Snyman will say 
quite a few things and one of the things that you said he would say 
was that an askari was mentioned and that he caused trouble etc, 
etc.   What is not clear to me is this askari, when you said an askari 
was mentioned at Vlakplaas and that he caused trouble, was the 
askari who caused trouble in Vlakplaas or is it the askari that we 
talked about in PE?

MR LAMEY: No, Mr Chairman, it is referring to an askari in Port 
Elizabeth.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I see, thank you.

MR LAMEY: Mr 
Chairman, may I just proceed to ask one further question to the 
applicant?  Mr Nieuwoudt, on the basis of the information and 
statements made, and I refer specifically to Mr Snyman, would you 
agree that Mr Snyman had every reason to believe that based on 
your communications that this operation in which they were going to 
assist and play a supportive role, that this operation had to be 
carried out in the national interest?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Most definitely.

MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have got no further 
questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY

MR LAMEY: .

ADV DE JAGER: Could you just clarify one point for me.  You 
said you took them out to the place during the afternoon and that 
they chose their own positions there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And the would then have to act if there was no 
successful explosion?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.