Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

DR KNOBEL: No Mr Vally I won't be able to fix a date to it, but I should think it was after the 1987 work was done.  Remember I said to you just now I was then not the Surgeon-General as yet, so I take it that it was at that stage.  Certainly when I took over as Surgeon-General and I had a briefing by the project officer, I was brought up to date with this information and I was told that the project was now continuing on other analogues for which certain production was done at Delta-G and for which we were going to import through Organichem a purer methaqualone variant from Croatia.

MR VALLY: Well let's look at paragraph 50 of that same document.  You go on, I'm talking about the second last sentence of paragraph 50.

DR KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: "The programme was further, with the knowledge of the Minister of Law and Order, the Commissioner of Police and staff appointed by them to monitor the programme and to assist, carried out by them".
 Are we to understand that the Minister of Law and Order, and the Commissioner of Police were aware that Delta-G was producing methaqualone?

DR KNOBEL: Yes certainly.  The impression I had was that there was a document.  I was informed that there was a document of approval that methaqualone could be worked on at Delta-G and that that document had been signed by both the Minister of Police as well as the Commissioner of Police.

MR VALLY: Have you ever seen that document?

DR KNOBEL: No, I have not.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of whether that meets the legal requirements in terms of the Medicines Control Act?

DR KNOBEL: Well Mr Vally I have nothing more to say than what General Neethling said in this regard.  I was satisfied that the previous Surgeon-General had informed me that he had the permission from both the Minister and the Commissioner of Police.  I was assured that that permission was on a document.  I had not seen that document.  I had in fact asked for the document and I have never been given such a document.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of what kind of assistance these personnel being referred to here offered the project?

DR KNOBEL: No I think what is referred to here is the delivery of the mandrax from which it was extracted initially and making it available to Delta-G.  I think that is what is referred to here.
 At a later stage you will remember when we briefed the Minister, the Minister, in view of the briefing that we gave us, indicated that we should also get support from the Police service, from the forensic laboratory, of a policeman to accompany the flight that actually destroyed the quantities.  You will remember that.
 You will also remember that in that Coordinating Management Committee meeting that it is reported that the police at that stage did not want to be involved in the destruction process and instead of a policeman we then asked somebody from the Counter-Intelligence department to accompany the flight, which was I think a Commandant de Bruin.  Afterwards the police did agree that we could use the Forensic laboratory to determine the contents of the various plastic drums and we have that certificate which was issued by the Forensic laboratory.
 That's the kind of assistance, I think, that is being referred to here.

MR VALLY: We'll come back to the destruction in a short while.  That same letter, if you could go to paragraph 4B
"The Surgeon-General was directly responsible for the development of front companies and was...."

DR KNOBEL: Which page are you referring to here Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: I am so sorry.  If you go towards the beginning ...(intervention)

DR KNOBEL: You said paragraph 4B?

MR VALLY: Yes.

DR KNOBEL: That's below question 2.

MR VALLY: That's right.

DR KNOBEL: Well 4B doesn't say anything about Surgeon-General.  It says
"Technology development programmes under the control of the Surgeon-General".

MR VALLY: Well what do you understand by that?

DR KNOBEL: Mr Vally any technology within a medical service within a Defence Force that has to be developed is under the control of the Surgeon-General.  Any development, whether it be field ambulances or armoured vehicles that are used for evacuation of casualties, whether it be a new medical bag that can be dropped by parachute, that's technology that is being developed.

MR VALLY: Well let's talk about what this issue was about.  The whole question was, "was involved in the management and handling of sensitive projects", and we have been talking - this whole hearing has been centring around chemical and biological warfare under the cover of Project Coast. The question is this - the technological development relating to Project Coast, did that fall under the control of the Surgeon-General?

DR KNOBEL: Yes Sir.

MR VALLY: So you should have been kept aware at all stages of whatever developments had been taking place both on the chemical front and the biological front.

DR KNOBEL: Certainly, but that was only one project of the Medical Service.  There were many, many others that this officer was also responsible for.

MR VALLY: Well let's talk specifically about that.  Yet on the chemical and biological side you were not the expert, you were reliant on Brig Basson.

DR KNOBEL: Certainly.  If you read this paragraph you will see that this says, "since April '81".  I only joined the National Defence Force, or the South African Defence Force in January '81, and I have already testified to you that the first year I was totally involved in a staff course at the Army College and my next year in the Joint Staff course at the Joint Staff College.  My first introduction to this project was from 1983 onwards.  It was then under the control of General Niewoudt until 1988, and I took over in March 1988.  So certainly, but there were many other projects also within the Medical Service.
 It here refers specifically to the question with regards to sensitive projects.

MR VALLY: Right.

DR KNOBEL: Any new development in a military environment is of a secret nature.

MR VALLY: Well let's restrain ourselves to Project Coast.

DR KNOBEL: Surely.

MR VALLY: If - we go on, if you look at page 7 paragraph 23 the same document, the controlling body, the Coordinating Management Committee, the group of generals that we've referred to in the past ...(intervention)

DR KNOBEL: That's correct.

MR VALLY: After '88 they met once a year to approve the budget.  So the question is, who apart from Brig Basson was briefed and kept abreast of the activities of the programme?