Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-23

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes that is correct because this car belonged to a certain guy and the car was known, that is the one we were driving to the place and we planned that we were going to take one of the cars from the point of attack so as for us to be able to move from that point to our own car and be able to get away.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, so that was the sole purpose of stealing the van, just to enable yourself to get to where your car was, just to get away from the store to Elsburg to Westonaria where your car was parked?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: It wasn't Westonaria, I think it was about two kilometres from that shop which was situated in the mine.  It was plus minus two kilometres so it was specifically to move from the point to where our car was.

CHAIRPERSON: And where was your car parked, was it not parked in Westonaria?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: It was also in Elsburg, it could have been plus minus two kilometres from the shop, we had hidden it somewhere there about two kilometres away from the shop.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Prior.

MR MALAN: Sorry Mr Prior, just before you proceed?
	How did you get to the shop?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: We were dropped off at the shop, we chose a spot where the driver would wait for us so that after we had conducted the operation we could meet him at that spot.

MR MALAN: I thought that part of the plan was to steal the van to get back to your car which you left two kilometres from the shop?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: If I understand you correctly you are now saying that whoever the driver was that dropped you off had to pick you up at that spot again?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: No I did not say that.

MR MALAN: Can you then please explain?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I said to the shop we were in our own car, we were dropped off just close to the shop and the driver went back to a certain spot where he had to wait for us.  We would meet him after the operation, we had initially planned that we were going to take a van from the shop and drive the van to the spot where we had agreed that the driver would meet us or where he would park for us to get into the vehicle.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Madam Chair.
	Did you know that a vehicle was obtainable there, that you could have obtained such a vehicle before the operation?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: When I started off I said we received information and we went to reconnoitre to we knew there would be a car there in the premises.

ADV PRIOR: How many shots were fired at that store?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: It could have been more than two or three times.

ADV PRIOR: And is it correct that you had determined afterwards that it was Small Baby who said that he had shot the white man?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes I knew.

ADV PRIOR: Because he told you that?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: In paragraph 14 you said that Small Baby was armed with an AK47, is that correct?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: I refer you to page 65 of the bundle, the judgement of his Lordship Claassen during your trial from 9, 10 onwards.  Just proceeding that, after the money and the cigarettes were obtained, the leader of the four men inside cried or shouted "bulala", at that stage all the people in the shop I think were lying down.  At page 10 - sorry line 10 of the judgement, he then says and I'm going to translate it
"One of the men who had an AK47 pulled the trigger but the gun did not fire whereupon the leader at a short distance shot the deceased in his chest with his pistol.  The deceased and Mr Jardin then ran to another place in the shop and two more shots were fired."
Now the point that I am trying to make here is that according to your affidavit, Small Baby had the AK47 and it would seem he wasn't the person who killed or shot the deceased but somebody else who was armed with a pistol and that would have been either - well yourself, but you would have been outside or Lumumba who had a 9 mm style pistol.  Can you comment on that or try and clarify that for me please?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: As I was outside whatever happened inside is unknown to me, I only depended on the information that I got after the operation, so I cannot deny that but I do know that Small Baby had an AK in possession and Lumumba had a pistol.

ADV PRIOR: Was your instruction to your unit who entered the premises of the shop did you instruct them to shoot or kill the occupants of those premises in the course of the operation?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes, my instructions were to shoot especially if they had to shoot white people that was part of the struggle.

ADV PRIOR: Would that be also that you wouldn't leave behind people who could identify you, would that be also part of your thinking?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: We were fighting the white people, we were not conducting a general reign of terror against anyone that we came across.

ADV PRIOR: Well I'm trying to understand, we've heard a lot of this evidence in other applications but was it part of your thinking that if you shot the shopkeepers or the people in the shop that you had robbed or repossessed, let's use that expression rather, that by killing them you would have no witnesses left that could identify you, give your identities to the police and be effective in your arrest.  Was that part of your thinking yes or no?  It's quite a simple issue.

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Let me make an example, if we conducted our operation in an urban area where a place was overcrowded, we would only take money and try to flee because the guns would make a lot of noise and it was going to be easy for us to get caught in such instances, so it depended upon the area as well as the guns that we had.

ADV PRIOR: Did Small Baby tell you whether the deceased had resisted in any way when he shot him?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: He only told me that he shot someone, a white person that is the owner of the shop.  I did not even ask him as to how he did it or require any further details, I deemed it was fit for him to have done that.

ADV PRIOR: What strikes me and I refer to page 13 of the bundle, there's reference made in your application to Libernon Gold Mine, Fraser Stores, that also appears at page 4 of the bundle, where you obtained R16 000, no one was injured or killed.  Once again, if you can assist me, I'm very troubled that here was a store where you obtain R16 000 on the same, presumably the same basis, you sent in an assault unit, there was a cut off unit, there was a support group, all were armed.  Here no one is killed yet in a similar operation in the same area where monies are obtained by the same method people are killed.  Can you explain the difference?  Were your instructions perhaps different?  I don't know, please assist me?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: The difference is quite big, the shop that you're referring to, the staff were black, I think that is still the situation, but the other one the owners as well as the staff were white people.

ADV PRIOR: Right, now we understand.  In the present case the owners were shot simply because they were white, is that right?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I've already explained that white people were also our targets.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Madam Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Prior.  Mr Mbandazayo, any re-examination?

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Just one point Madam Chair.
	Mr Maseko, you already told the Committee about the money that you used for your sustenance and other issues.  Can you just to enlighten the Committee, tell the Committee whether when you came inside the country did you have any money to sustain yourself or what were you going to use to sustain yourself inside the country when you were deployed inside the country?