Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

CHAIRPERSON: No the reason why I'm putting that question is because of your earlier evidence that you also conducted your own enquiry, and you said it was a thorough investigation.  Now have you not elicited that kind of evidence, this question would have been completely unwarranted.  It is your evidence, and it is as a result of your evidence that I am asking this question.  You stated that you conducted a thorough, not just any kind of investigation.  You qualified the kind of investigation you conducted as having been thorough.  Now I just wanted to find out how this thorough investigation was conducted.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Chairperson, I repeat ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: There is no translation coming through.

INTERPRETER: The interpreter's are waiting for him to speak, lady Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought he was talking and you are not translating.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: As I have mentioned that I investigated, but I could not get anything out of this investigation, and the final proof was to see them and there were no investigations necessary just because I had seen them.

CHAIRPERSON: No, your earlier evidence was that you conducted a thorough investigation.  Did you say that, or didn't you say that?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Chairperson, when I saw them, seeing them was enough.

CHAIRPERSON: No I know that.  I want to know your earlier evidence.  Everything you say is taken into, seriously into, account.  I want to know whether you didn't say earlier on that you conducted a thorough investigation.  Did you or did you not say that?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: What I saw falls under what you're saying.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm going to ask you for the last time.  If you are not prepared to answer, then you don't answer.  You are here to assist.  As a commander, or an alleged commander, in the applications of Mr Mkhwanazi and Mr Radebe, we expect you to respond to questions when they are put to you.  If you are unable to answer, do not answer, and indicate your inability to do so.  Do not adopt a particular attitude with this Committee.  It's not going to get you anywhere.  Do you understand me?  You are here to assist us and when we ask you questions, we expect you to respond to those questions because we need information in order to be able to decide whether the grant or deny the applicants the amnesty they have applied for.  Did you earlier on state that you had conducted a thorough investigation?  Did you, or did you not, say that in your earlier testimony?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I would not respond to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?  Why are you unable to know whether you said that or not?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Chairperson, I have spoken.  I'm now aware that we do not understand each other.

CHAIRPERSON: Why don't we understand each other?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I do not know why.  I do not know what causes this.  I had explained.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it that you had explained?  Because this is the explanation I am seeking.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I explained how I proved my point that they were involved.  That made me issuing out orders that they be eliminated.  Now what I don't understand is your question.  Where is your question leading to?

CHAIRPERSON: Earlier on, of your own accord, you said you conducted a thorough investigation in relation to the activities of the two girls in question.  That's what you said, and I want to understand if you still maintain that's what you said.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I hope it takes you a little faster next time to say yes instead of giving us a sermon that doesn't take us anywhere.  You are there to assist Mr Mkhwanazi and Mr Radebe and not to adopt an attitude with this Committee.  You have been called in to support their application because you were allegedly a commander of a unit.  We hope you'll do just that without wasting our invaluable time.  We don't have time to waste.  Proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.  With regard to the murder of Maletsatsi, Mr Mhlongo, are you saying you were a unit commander?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Do you know a comrade by the name of Kennel Powells Malokwane?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Did he belong to any political organisation?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Which one?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: ANC youth league.

MS THABETHE: Was he a member of an SDU?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: He was the commissar of Umkhonto weSiswe.

MS THABETHE: Did he work with SDUs as a commissar of Umkhonto weSiswe?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I do not know.  He was in his district.

MS THABETHE: Which district are you talking about?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: He was under Small Farm District.

MS THABETHE: So you wouldn't know which rank he occupied there, besides the fact that he was a commissar of an MK?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I do not understand your question.

MS THABETHE: My question is with regard to the SDU activities.  I'm asking would you know, or wouldn't you know, whether, which rank he was in as an SDU, except that he was a commissar of an MK?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I do not know.

MS THABETHE: Were you present when Maletsatsi was killed?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I was not present.

MS THABETHE: Did you have any information of who, besides Mr John Radebe, was present when Maletsatsi was killed?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I know that it's John Radebe who shot.

MS THABETHE: No, what I'm asking is when her killing was reported to you, were you told who else was there besides John Radebe?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: What I was told is that the community of Small Farm had gathered at the scene.

MS THABETHE: Do you know how she was killed?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I know that she was shot.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabethe.  Ms Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Mhlongo, when you, after you had thrown the hand grenade into this white car, who did you tell about it?  To whom did you mention this incident?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I told my unit, that was after the vehicle sped off.  I told them the description of the car.  I told them that I threw a hand grenade inside the car, it was thrown out, and the car sped of.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you tell them whom you saw in the car?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes, I told them.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you mention Hapile to them?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes, I told them, because she is the person I clearly saw.

ADV BOSMAN: You see, why I'm asking you this is I find it strange that they never mentioned it in their evidence, that they knew about this.  Can you comment on this?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I do not know why they did not mention it, but this the information they had.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you tell them about the incident when you saw Hapile and Elsie in town harassing the other people?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes, I told them.

ADV BOSMAN: I also find it strange that they didn't mention this.  Do you have any idea why they've forgotten all this information.  Can you comment on it?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I do not know why they forgot to mention that.  So many things happened.  They got involved in so many things, and I have told them so many things.

ADV BOSMAN: But do you agree that these two incidents were the most important in you deciding that they should be killed?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes, I agree.

ADV BOSMAN: When you met with Mr Bonga Khumalo after the incident, and you reported to him, did you tell him what the, everything that had been conveyed to you by the defendant?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I did not tell him everything, because he was on the run.  Our position was very awkward.  We were close to the deceased family, so we could not talk freely.