Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-19

CHAIRPERSON: You are quite confident that this was a complete picture, but one must bear in mind, mustn't one that the picture was being given to you in 1997, was it?

PULENG ZWANE: Sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Nine years after the event?

PULENG ZWANE: Sure.

CHAIRPERSON: And no matter how honest someone might be trying to be, they might be a little confused about dates and times and matters of that nature?

PULENG ZWANE: Sure, but as complete a picture as possible, given what is possible.

MR KOOPEDI: Perhaps my question should have been phrased the other way round, that nothing was withheld, no information was withheld, according to you?

PULENG ZWANE: No information was withheld according to me, in as far as the who part is concerned.  In as far as the why part is concerned, I cannot sit here and say some information was withheld.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  Now, this lady you spoke about, would it be correct to say her surname was ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Do we want details?  He has said he did not meet this lady, he merely heard gossip about her.  She has not been informed, that she is going to be partly referred to here.  Is she at all relevant?

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, but for the reason that she has not been informed, I would concede to that.  However, I think it is material and very relevant in that certain assertions have been made in this hearing.
	It has been put in particular to the first applicant, that the order that he gave, was not because Sicelo Dhlomo had worked for the other side, but was for other purposes.
	Here is a witness who came here on the insistence of my learned friend, who gives us some other evidence and I believe in all fairness to this application ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, is it evidence?  He gives us something that he heard from somebody?  As I understand him, the reason he didn't put it in his report was that he had not satisfied himself of the correctness of this?
	I think you can ask him questions, but you needn't mention names.  We know who you are referring to, he knows who you are referring to, you need not mention the name.  But you could find out from him precisely the reliability of any information he had.

MR KOOPEDI: I will leave out the name Chairperson.   My instructions are, and please confirm or deny this, that is if you know, that this lady is known to have initially infiltrated the PAC during 1985?  Do you know anything about that?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(microphone not on)

PULENG ZWANE: No.

MR KOOPEDI: You have not heard about that?  My further instructions are that she is employed at the moment as a Lieutenant?

PULENG ZWANE: Sure.

MR KOOPEDI: Do you know that?

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Koopedi, my problem not just in line with the problems that have been raised with the Chairperson, you see, you are dealing now with the identity of this person, where she works, which organisations did she associate with, and so forth?
	The problem continues to remain that she had not been notified that she might be mentioned in these proceedings?

DR TSOTSI: Do you want to call this lady?

MR KOOPEDI: I concede the point, and I think that it would be proper to call her, not only to call her, but to get you know, whoever who came after Mr Zwane as an Investigator, to tell us if any leads were ever followed and in that sense, I believe a true picture would have been put before this Committee to enable you to get to a proper decision.
	It is common cause with respect Chairperson, and fellow Committee members, that the application in my mind, and bear in mind, I am not yet addressing, but this application revolves around the fact that the late Sicelo Dhlomo was killed because somebody thought he was an informer.
	I believe when I have to deal with the issue of proportionality, that matter is going to be very material, whether he was or not.

CHAIRPERSON: We heard evidence yesterday that three days before his death, he was saying he had agreed to be an informer.  Didn't we?

MR KOOPEDI: We did get that evidence Chairperson, and I am not sure whether that remark is intended to say perhaps I should consider not calling this lady or the Investigator that came after Mr Zwane?

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand it, you don't know what either of them is going to say.  I would consider it extremely undesirable to say you want to start calling witnesses whom you have not interviewed, you don't know what they are going to say.  You don't know if they can say anything that can assist us.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, if I may also comment on this.  The Investigator who superseded Mr Zwane, did not mention this lady spoken about now.
	Secondly Chairperson, this lady, there is no evidence which has been given by this witness that this lady had links directly with Sicelo for that matter.  All that we have here is that this lady they are referring to was employed at the DPSC and that in itself Chairperson, I submit sir, is not sufficient for us to call that particular witness to come here, given the inconveniences, the expenses and all so on.
	It is my submission Chairperson, that that witness for this particular purpose, would not be necessary.

CHAIRPERSON: I can't say that, I certainly would not at present call her on behalf of the Committee.   If the applicant's Attorney wishes to arrange to consult with her and obtain information which he considers of great relevance, then it is a different matter.
	At the moment, I agree with you entirely, there is no evidence.  Perhaps we could ask this witness, did you, had you got any evidence of any connection between this lady and the deceased, Sicelo?

PULENG ZWANE: Not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the purpose of the questioning, he says he knows of no connection?

MR KOOPEDI: Well Chairperson, he did mention that there were a number of leads that he was following.

CHAIRPERSON: He mentioned that he heard that this lady was an informer, he heard Sicelo was in informer, and he wanted to meet the lady to find if there was a connection, and then he stopped.  That is your evidence, isn't it?

MR KOOPEDI: I concede that is what he said and wish to stress that he used the word leads. It was more to me that he had more than one lead.
	However, I will not take the point any further and perhaps I have no further questions for this witness?
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

MR MAPOMA: No questions, Chairperson, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA

ADV SANDI: Just one thing which was not very clear.  This infiltration by the lady, was it the PAC or the DPSC?

PULENG ZWANE: No, I am not sure whether she worked as an employee of the DPSC, but she had some links with them.
	The links could be they used to have meetings together, because she was a member of JODAC and ECC and by that time, there were joint meetings held between JODAC and DPSC.

ADV SANDI: DPSC not PAC?

PULENG ZWANE: DPSC, Detainees Parents' Support Committee.

ADV SANDI: This question I am going to ask you, you may have mentioned it, perhaps I did not pick it up.
	The Security Police you say you met and they said Dube was responsible for the killing of Sicelo, did they tell you how they got to know that?

PULENG ZWANE: Yes.

ADV SANDI: What did they say?

PULENG ZWANE: They told me that their commander who happens to be a white officer, told them that he knows who killed Dhlomo, Sicelo Dhlomo and then he mentioned to them that Dube killed Dhlomo.
	That is how they told me that information.

ADV SANDI: I think I heard you saying you don't want to reveal the identity of these, the names of these Security Police, but in terms of rank, how high up were they?  Are we talking about lower ranked people, higher up?

PULENG ZWANE: The foot-soldiers, the lower ranking.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.