Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-22

CHAIRPERSON: Are we now proceeding with the Mthembu matter?

ADV PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: There have been no changes have there, since the first hearing?

ADV PRIOR: There's no changes in representation.  I don't know if Mr Nel is on record for Mr van Schalkwyk, the victim.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think we adjourned to enable Mr van Schalkwyk to consul the Deputy State Attorney so I'm quite sure that Mr Nel hasn't placed himself on record yet.

MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  On the last occasion we were in Pietermaritzburg when the matter was adjourned, I think due to your ill health, Sir, if I recall correctly, so I did not go on record.  I am acting for Sergeant W van Schalkwyk who was injured in the incident that Mr Mthembu is asking amnesty for and my name is Christo Nel from my own practice here in Durban.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, we can proceed.  I take it a transcript of the evidence has been made available to you?

MR NEL: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may the applicant then be sworn?  I believe he is in position.

ADV POTGIETER: Mr Mthembu, are you full names Dumisani Mthembu?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: (sworn states)

ADV POTGIETER: I assume that there might some cross-examination by Mr Nel?

MR NEL: Mr Mthembu, from the proceedings previously held it became apparent to me that you stated that you were guarding a one, Mr Shandu, am I correct?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct, I was guarding Mr Shandu.

MR NEL: And Mr Shandu was a prominent figure of Cosatu at the time?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR NEL: You did also state that you received the firearm from an ANC commander, Mr Nkunu, Mr Mzizi  Nkunu?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR NEL: When exactly did you receive your instructions from Mr Nkunu, as well as the firearm to specifically guard Mr Vincent Shandu?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I received the instruction after the death of Vincent Shandu's brother, Kelani Shandu and after that I got in contact with Mr Nkunu.

MR NEL: Mr Chairman, sorry I seem to have a problem with receiving the applicant and I did not hear that answer at all, may I just ask for ...

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Can you hear me now?

MR NEL: Yes, I can, thank you.  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Mthembu, sorry I didn't get your reply.  The question was, if I may repeat it, when exactly did you receive your instructions and also the firearm from Mr Nkunu?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I received the instruction and the firearm after the death of Kelani Shandu and by this time we had already received the instruction to the effect that Vincent Shandu is going to be killed.  That is when I received the firearm at the same time.

MR NEL: The person that you had been mentioned who had been killed, Shandu, am I correct in saying that was the brother of Mr Vincent Shandu?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR NEL: Now for how long prior to this incident, the one that you are here for today, had you been guarding Mr Vincent Shandu?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Since 1991 right up to 1992 when I got injured.

MR NEL: Had you been staying with Mr Vincent Shandu at his house, if I recall correctly No 1658, since 1991 then?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR NEL: But Mr Mthembu, if I recall correctly from reading the previous proceedings, Mr Shandu the deceased was killed in 1989.

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Even though I may not be sure as to whether he was killed in 1989 but I think that after his death, that is the time when it became necessary that I guard Vincent his brother.

MR NEL: I read from page 6 of a transcript of the previous proceedings where your attorney asked you the following question
"Now can you remember anybody who was killed in the area around the time you were guarding Mr Shandu"?
And your reply was
"The person who got killed was Ken Shandu."
Now this question says
"Around the time that you were guarding Mr Shandu"
Now before I ask my question, on page 18 of the same transcript you replied to a question from the Panel here that Mr Ken Shandu was killed during November 1989.  Now my question is, how could you have been guarding Mr Shandu around about the time that his brother was killed because this incident happened in 1992 and Ken Shandu died in 1989?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: After the death of Ken Shandu it therefore became necessary for me to guard Vincent.  That was the instruction that I received from Msizi.  I don't know how long it took for them to plan this, that Shandu be guarded.
	I really cannot say how much it took for them to plan for the guarding of Shandu but I am talking here about the time during which I received the instruction to go and guard him.

MR NEL: I accept what you are saying, Mr Mthembu, but it seems to me that you only received an instruction to guard Mr Vincent Shandu in 1991, yet in the same breath you say that it became important for you to guard him after his brother's death, but his brother died some four years prior to ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Two years.

MR NEL: Pardon, two years prior to you starting to guard Mr Shandu.
	Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Would you please repeat the question?

MR NEL: Yes, I will.  What I'm putting to you, Mr Mthembu is that Mr Shandu's brother died in 1989 and you had said that it became important for you to guard his brother, Vincent, after the death of Ken Shandu, but what had happened between 1989 and 1981, sorry,     1991?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: What I can say here is that I was not at Mandeni in 1989, I only arrived there in 1990 and I don't know what happened before that.

ADV POTGIETER: So Mr Mthembu, you can't say whether Mr Ken Shandu was guarded before you came to Mandeni?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Are you talking about Ken Shandu or Vincent?

ADV POTGIETER: No, sorry, Vincent, the one that you guarded.

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Apparently he was not guarded, that is why it became necessary that I be the one who should guard him.  He was not guarded prior to my arrival.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you.  Mr Nel?

MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Why did it become necessary suddenly in 1991 to guard him if the whole purpose of him being guarded was the fact that his brother had been killed two years prior?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Vincent and his companions received a message to the effect that he was the one to follow his brother, he was the one that was to be killed next.

MR NEL: Did you or do you know that Mr Vincent Shandu had a number of meetings with the Security Branch around about this period of time that you were supposed to guard him?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I do not remember any meeting that he held with the Security Branch before, during or after I guarded him.

MR NEL: There is a policeman present at these proceedings here today in the flesh of the then Sergeant Botes and who will testify later that he knew Vincent Shandu very well, and him being involved in the Cosatu Desk had various meetings with Mr Shandu in relation to marches etc., in a certain township during the time.  Now if you were his bodyguard are you saying that you didn't know of these meetings?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: When are you saying these meetings were held, from 1991 to 1992 or are you saying these meetings were held around '89/1990?  I do not understand.

MR NEL: Well the meetings started as early as 1988/1989 but you obviously wouldn't know about that but it was on a daily, not a daily basis but these meetings were held by Mr Botes even in the time that you would have been around.

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: It is a mistake that I was present in 1988 right up to 1989, I only arrived in Mandeni in 1990, not in 1988, not in 1989.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't seem to have understood the question.  What the questioner said to you was that the meetings were held before you arrived from 1988 to 1989, but that they continued holding meetings while you were there, that is during 1991/1992.