Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-27

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: I'm not going to be answering it, but I think it's important to be stated here that more than anything we feel that we have been tried as family, especially by you, Mr Visser.  You do not seem to show any remorse at all.  By rights the Special Branch had been behind our family for years, all of us.  They kept photographs which wherever you go or any person from the area or from Durban itself, goes wherever, whether you pass through the border or whether you are taken for questioning, you'll be shown that album.  People came and told us "You are in that album, your whole family is there."  And as our representative, our lawyer, Mr Wills has said, we were not and still are not under intentions at all to hide any evidence.  But so far as we are concerned up until now, you have hiding everything.  You should have provided us with the photos that you have kept of us, or your clients so to speak.  So it's very sad and I think you are trying me more than anything.  You are pushing us to the limit.  Thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mrs Masetla.  Mrs Masetla, are you alright?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Yes, I'm fine, thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Now the son Clifford, was he living permanently with Ntombi Kubheka, or what was the position?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Clifford he never lived with the mother, he was living in my mother's house, but of course he will frequent the mother from time to time.

MR VISSER: He lived with his grandmother and visited his mother, is that what you're saying?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: He would visit his mother, yes of course.

MR VISSER: From time to time?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Yes.

MR VISSER: Where did he attend school?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: He studied in Botha's Hill, he studied in KwaMashu, he studied in Lesotho.

MR VISSER: In Lesotho.  His high school career, where was that, in Lesotho or here in Natal?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: It was both in Natal and in Lesotho.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And what I understand from your evidence today is the two dresses, Exhibits 5 and 6 that were here, that were brought here, were really identified by him as belonging to Ntombi Kubheka.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Yes, I did say that, that we took them out, we confirmed with him if the dresses were the mother's.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Why not with Tuli, for example?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Tuli was young, she was a baby.

MR VISSER: I see.  Why do you suppose have these dresses been kept for thirteen years and haven't been given to the daughters?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Traditionally that wouldn't be done.  I've told you that we have my mother's things and we've got my sister's clothes, who has passed away, we've got Sisi Ntombi's clothes.  Up till now, maybe it's still not up till now, until the truth be told we are going to be keeping those things until all the rituals have been done and they are cleansed and then we can then divide them amongst ourselves or they can be given to whoever it available at that point.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, I didn't quite follow you.  You say it will be divided up at some point, after what?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: When we have finished with the rituals, when the clothes have been cleansed, when we have buried my sister and closed the case up.

MR VISSER: Alright.

CHAIRPERSON: How are these clothes being stored at the moment, Mrs Masetla?  You've talked about the clothes of your mother and of Ntombi and your other sister.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: They are in suitcases in my mother's bedroom in KwaMashu.

CHAIRPERSON: Are they all together, or what is the situation?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: My mother's are in her bags in the suitcases on their own, they're not mixed so to speak Mr Chair.  My other late sister's, Tuli, they are in their suitcases and my elder sister, Ntombi, they are in her own suitcase.  So each one of the belongings are kept differently.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR VISSER: Were there any other clothes belong to Ntombi Kubheka in that suitcase?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Yes, there were.

MR VISSER: Can you give us any idea of what it was?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: What do you mean what it was?

MR VISSER: What kind of clothes were they?  In the suitcase.

CHAIRPERSON: You're talking ...

MR VISSER: Dresses, shirts ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Dresses, shirts, slax, shoes, jewellery, whatever?

MR VISSER: Yes.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: There are dresses, there are shirts, they are skirts, there are belts.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Would there be any objection if we could look at them?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: If you could?

MR VISSER: Look at the suitcase and the contents of the suitcase.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Do you want us to bring the suitcase and the contents?

MR VISSER: That's what I'm asking.  Would there be an objection to that?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: There wouldn't be any objection, but I think after what I have raised with the way you have treated us, personally I would ask why do you want to see them and if you give me a valid reason for me to bring them, I would do that, but I don't see why I should be bringing them.

MR VISSER: Now Mrs Masetla, that's the second time you've blamed me for acting untowards to you.  Now I want to put it to you that I'm here to do my work as a lawyer for my clients.  I've not been disparaging to you or anyone of your family.  I've gone up to those that I know are members of Kubheka's family, to your brother for example, I've introduced myself to him, to the daughter as well.  I greet them every day.  And I reject your imputation that I acted incorrectly towards you.  Okay?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Thanks very much, I appreciate it.

MR VISSER: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Hugo, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mrs Masetla?

MR HUGO: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe?

MR VAN DER MERWE: I have no questions and no questions on behalf of Mr Nel as well, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE AND NO QUESTIONS ON BEHALF OF MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: I've got a note here from Mr Samuel, excusing him and in which it is also stated that he has no questions for you.  Ms Thabethe, do you have any questions you'd like to put?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair, I do.  But maybe before I do Mr Chair, I just want to put it on record that as the TRC, to the family we are very sorry that we had to put you through this, we realise how tough and how strenuous it has been on you as a family.  We are very sorry.  Especially with the clothes, I know traditionally clothes of a person who is deceased, you're not supposed to hang them anyhow, you know display them and everything.  Traditionally it shows disrespect, so we are very sorry that we had to put you through that.  On behalf of the TRC.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Thank you.

MS THABETHE: Now you have mentioned that Ms Kubheka, Ntombi the deceased was a bit taller than you in 1982, is that correct?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: Yes, it's correct.

MS THABETHE: Now what I want to find out is, how old were you in 1982 would you say?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: I was born in 1958.

CHAIRPERSON: You would be 24, plus-minus.

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: In the early '20s, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Plus-minus 24.

MS THABETHE: Okay.  And would you say in - you've been this height since 1982, or have you grown since then?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: No, I haven't been this height since 1982.

MS THABETHE: So how tall do you think you were in 1982?  Or maybe let me not put it that way.  Do you think you were shorter than what you are now, in 1982?

LYN MOTOKO MASETLA: I'm not sure, I don't know.

MS THABETHE: I'll tell you why I'm asking this question.  I'm trying to ascertain, you are saying Ms Ntombi Kubheka was taller than you in 1982, and I'm not sure whether ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what your height was in 1982, Mrs Masetla?