bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-09

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Our next witness today we are going to call is Lennox Sigwela. Lennox Sigwela is coming with Paul Haupt, the facilitator is going to be Glenda Wildschut.  We will request that Mrs Mary Burton to swear Lennox in.  Lennox Sigwela is still coming.  Lennox is in a wheelchair, he is coming.  So they are bringing him up on stage. We might have to bring the table forward a bit to allow some room for him.  Thank you Elizabeth Cloete, for assisting with moving the table.   Paul Haupt is the briefer coming up with Lennox Sigwela.  Ms Glenda Wildschut is going to facilitate his testimony.  Mary Burton is going to administer the oath.
 I would just like to know,  the gentleman who has come up with Lennox, who is the gentleman?  Lennox's father.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you, over to you, Mary Burton.  There is a bit of some noise that is beginning to lift up. We will just request people to keep their voices down.  Thank you.

MARY BURTON: Mr Sigwela, are you going to be speaking in English or do you want to use the earphones?

LENNOX SIGWELA: I am going to speak Xhosa.

MARY BURTON: Can I make sure that you are hearing the translation in Xhosa?   I am going to ask you then to make the oath.

LENNOX SIGWELA: (Duly sworn, states).

MARY BURTON: Thank you.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you, Ms Burton. Ms Wildschut.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Afternoon, Lennox.  I wonder, are you comfortable in your chair?

LENNOX SIGWELA: Yes, I am comfortable, yes, thank you.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: You are going to tell us a story about what happened to you on the 9th of June 1986.  Some time ago.  You may go ahead and tell us about your story.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-09

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Just two things - sorry to interrupt you. Just two things to get clear.  You said there is a white person who came that comrades are coming to attack you.  I just want to make sure that you did say that.  Is there a white person who came to tell you that the comrades were coming to attack  you?  Thank you.

LENNOX SIGWELA: Thank you, lady. I don't want to say I was part of Mgonbwane's part, but everyone who was a parent and they were all collected to a meeting place and then came the police van.  Mr Barnard spoke in a loud-speaker and said old men, be careful, the children are here.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So it is Barnard who said that?

LENNOX SIGWELA: Yes, and so he left.  When he left he went to the kids and said be careful, your fathers are coming.  They prepared.  That's what I heard. I don't know if it was like that.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Now the second question I want to have clarified. People - you said people who were in the committee members, people who were leaders, when there was a fight they would disappear.  Was this very frequent?

LENNOX SIGWELA: I noticed this when I moved to New Crossroads, that there were people who were not there.  When after we have chased the kids, most of these leaders are not here, but they are the ones who took us out of the houses, but now, why is it that they run away? Are they the ones who are involved in this fight.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you very much for your explanation.  What you have said suggests - our work is (speaker's question not interpreted). We have to examine - our work is - is supported by police of the Witdoeke and there was a fomenting by police of the conflicts that existed in the area.   Secondly the people who were leaders at that time after an attack, as you have said, the conflict was encouraged by police and you mentioned Barnard and the leaders would disappear. Thank you, daddy, and to you, Lennox, for coming.  We are sorry because you have lost your - you have actually lost your eldest son. He is powerless, helpless to do anything to support the family, which makes him experience emotional pain.  That is very painful, but thank you very much for coming. In spite of that you had the courage to come and explain what you have just explained.  Thank you very much.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: At this point we are going to try and take a break for lunch.   I just request that we should come back at exactly quarter to two.  People who are responsible for our catering should please speed up things, because 13:45 we resume.  Could you stand as the witnesses leave?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-09

MANDLA SIQAZA: I don't - there isn't much that I am carrying in my heart, but all I can say is I can never be peaceful. I don't think I will ever be peaceful in my mind.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: How old were you at that time?  Or what were you doing?

MANDLA SIQAZA: I was 24 years old.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I just want one question.  This boy was being buried, Sandile Selani - do you know Andile was buried on the day of your father's death?

MANDLA SIQAZA: No.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Did you know that there was a funeral?

MANDLA SIQAZA: No, all I know there was a funeral but my father was not going there.  There were many people on the road and they went into NY5.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Did you know that this young boy who was buried was shot by police, Sandile Selani was being buried that day and these people were from his funeral?

MANDLA SIQAZA: Yes, it was like that.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you very much.

DR BORAINE: Mr Siqaza, than you very much for coming. It is very hard to forget your father's murder.  We are encouraged that things have begun to change in this country, but there were many, many victims on all sides who paid a very high price. Thank you to coming and we hope that the telling of the story in front of this community, will assist you to find peace yourself and for your family.  Thank you very much indeed.
 I think this is a good time to break.  I would be grateful if you could be back at quarter past 11, because we will be starting then again. Thank you very much.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-09

MARY BURTON: I just want to say one more thing for your sake and also for the other people who are here, to hear.  You have mentioned the names of the people whom you believe or know were involved in the death of your husband.  Now as part of our work we need to inform, we will have informed those people and they have a right to come back and tell us what they believe happened.  And this is part of our attempt to bring the whole story out into the open and to make sure that everything is known about what happened at that time, and to give an opportunity, maybe, to those people to say that they are sorry for what they did. When we hear your reply to Glenda Wildschut's question and the anger that your children sometimes feel, that is also part of our job, as the Commission, but also part of the job of everybody in the community, to make sure that our children grow up not always feeling anger and seeking revenge, so that we can create for them a society where they live in peace with their neighbours.  So thank you for your part in coming to build that picture for us.

MS SOKUPA: Can I ask something?  I would like to, if these people are called, Detective Khan should not be left out, because when I went to give a statement, there was a list of names of people that I know, and this detective asked if I knew those people.  I said no, I didn't know, because they were just these names.  He said these are the people who killed Siqaza.  I said why do you ask me because I wanted to know about those who killed my husband, because they were taken again, but they were released and I was never called for my case, but I have been to the police station, to this detective, Detective Khan. I don't  know if he is a sergeant, but he was one of the senior detectives. He has just ignored my case like that.  It was as if the death of my husband was just like a dog that has been knocked down by a car, because there was never a case, no person from the law-enforcement department ever came to us.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you.  Thank you, we have taken note of what you have told us. We thank you very much.  We will take it up and follow it, try to find out.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

CHAIRPERSON: Could Colonel Vermeulen come up please.  Mr Ntsebeza is going to lead you in your testimony and I will ask Dr Mapule Ramashala to swear you in please.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Dr Ramashala.  I would just like to remind the people to please share your headsets.  Are you going to be speaking in Afrikaans or English?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I will testify in Afrikaans but if it's necessary I can express myself in English.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so Ladies and Gentlemen the testimony is going to be in English and Afrikaans so please share your headsets with those who do not understand these two languages.  Thank you.  Mr Ntsebeza.  I see you are submitting a document?

ADV HIEMSTRA: Yes, Chairperson we have a statement which was prepared for the Committee investigation but which probably deals fully with the matters that you are investigating today as well.
 Mr Vermeulen, you will see from the document which is already in your possession that the first couple of paragraphs simply deal with the background ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me we do not have the documents.

ADV HIEMSTRA: You do not have the document?

CHAIRPERSON: We do not have the statement.  Has it just been made - where is it - oh okay.  Now we have it.  Thank you, I am sorry about that.  Can I just check with Chris the sound person, do people hear clearly because I am just wondering if the volume should be raised, do people hear clearly?  Thank you.  We have the documents, please continue Mr Hiemstra.

ADV HIEMSTRA: Chairperson you will notice that in the first couple of paragraphs the background is simply stated and the questions are formulated which form part of the Section 29 notices, so that in paragraphs 1 to 4 the witness simply explains what he is dealing with in the rest of the paper.  So if he starts reading from paragraph 5 that will give a full picture of the necessary information.

CHAIRPERSON: Could we ask, because we'd like to place it on record, since you've submitted the document could you read from the beginning, it's alright we have the time, thank you.  Mr Ntsebeza.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Chairperson.   Colonel Vermeulen will you then read your statement into the record.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cradock — 1996-02-10

NOSISI DORAH BILL: I request the Commission because it is hurting to me, that child was working for me as I didn't have a husband.  He used to buy everything in the house, he used to be responsible.  I am not getting pension, I am not working.   To me he was a breadwinner in my home, I am all alone now.  I request that the Commission should see what to do.
 Even my house is backwards, I am in debt, I cannot pay because I am not working.

REV XUNDU: Is there anything else that you would like to add?

NOSISI DORAH BILL: No, I am finished.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Ma'am.  I will hand over to the Chairperson, maybe he might have some questions since he is a deep thinking person who sometimes see some things that I cannot see.  Thank you.

BONGANI FINCA: Mrs Nosisi Bill, we thank you.  By telling us this story which is so painful, there is something that I have noticed in these stories, the stories that we have been listening to yesterday and today, which is a problem in my mind, that all these stories were supposed to be under the lawyers who were fighting for the Human Rights, they should have made a follow up, but we realise that a lot of them didn't take note, they didn't make a follow up.
 In stead a murder case would just end like anything.  Whereas the lawyers who claim to be the lawyers of Human Rights, were among us.  Maybe there is a specific reason
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which can clarify, but on my mind I become confused why did all these matters that involve the death of the people, not go on and have the real outcome, no follow up, nothing.
 Perhaps we are going to ask that question when we are dealing with the hearing of the people who were maintaining law and order, but for now, we are going to say thank you to you and we have taken note of your request that you have made to the Commission and we will also see to it that our investigators will make a follow up.  If there is something that we will need from you, we will still come back to you to ask questions.  Thank you.
 I would request that we take a few minutes for a break and come back at quarter past eleven.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cradock — 1996-02-10

MR SANDI: This Mr Jingwani that he wanted to make contact with, did you know him?

KETANI FRANS BLOU: No, I did not know him.   Who is Jingwani, I don't know who you are talking about?

MR SANDI: The attorney that he said he would like you to talk to.

KETANI FRANS BLOU: I think that was his secret, I never saw that legal representative.

MR SANDI: Did you hear if he ever met this attorney?

KETANI FRANS BLOU: No I didn't hear anything, because when he left he said he was going to Port Elizabeth, he never came back to Somerset.  That was the end.  I am not sure whether he got the job or what happened, he just disappeared.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Blou.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you sir.  You said something that I am sure that it is true, if some of us can remember that the people who were in the struggle, they did not tell their parents about their business.
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 Just because of that, you must not think that Ndlamafa was not respecting you.  Even when I was young, I used to not tell my parents about my things.  It is not that we didn't trust them, but it is because we didn't want them to know because we knew the pain that they would experience if they would know about our business.
 You will find out that a lot of people didn't tell their parents about their role in the struggle - if Ndlamafa himself didn't tell you.
 We thank you for telling us your story of which even the name shows that you had big intentions.  We are going to do whatever we can to try and get direction as you have told us that if he is dead, at least his bones should be brought home so that you can cry and be satisfied, just like the other parents.
 Thank you sir.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cradock — 1996-02-10

MR SANDI: Thank you Mrs Booyse.  Mr Chairperson, I hand over the witness to you.

BONGANI FINCA: Mrs Booyse, I just have one question.  Perhaps you had already answered this question and I missed it.  Was there a court case, did you report this to the Magistrate to lay charges on the perpetrators?

NOMIGHT REGINA BOOYSE: Yes, I did report the case and the policeman said he is waiting for the stone.  I could not continue.  I tried to get his Death Certificate, then I was told to pay R6-00 and they gave me the Death Certificate.
 They sent the Death Certificate to me.  I would go to them, sorry, they were actually supposed to send the Death Certificate to me, they promised to send it, but they never did.  I continued to go.  Vuyani was buried there, Vuyani was killed there, they should have given me the Death Certificate.
 I then went to the police station requesting the Death Certificate.  They said I must go to Uitenhage.  I said no, the Uitenhage office said I must get it from you.  They referred to certain records of theirs.  There were two
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letters, one from the Magistrate, they gave me these two papers and they said I must put them in an envelope and post them.  I then went to the Magistrate's office and asked them to photocopy for me these two pages.  
 They then said I must put this envelope in the mail.  I took the copies of these pages, I gave it to a teacher, Sithole, telling her what happened.  I gave these two pages and a letter that they wrote me, that they cannot find the Death Certificate, I gave these three documents to the teacher.
 Up to this day I did not get the Death Certificate.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you Mrs Booyse.  As you came up the stairs, you were very emotional.  Thank you for gathering strength and give us the details that you could about your grandson, Vuyani.
 Thank you as well that as an elderly lady you went from office to office endeavouring to solve this problem, and you did not get much respect or help.  You have showed us how the police did not care about the death of your grandson.
 Sidney Mofomade, if he is listening on radio perhaps, we hope that he listened to your story.  We hope that he realises how much work is to be done to discipline and educate the police.  If they are going to continue being policemen, there is a lot that needs to be done.  They need to be trained again so that they do their job properly so that they are able to handle people properly.
 Thank you Ma'am.  We are going to wait for the documents that you have said you have sent to us.  Perhaps the teacher that you gave the documents to, can send those documents to us.   Thank you Ma'am.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cradock — 1996-02-10

MANGALISO JOHNSON DILIMA: I request that the Commission should help me, assist me in educating my child.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Dilima, I will hand you over to Mr Chairman.

BONGANI FINCA: June Crichton?

JUNE CRICHTON: Mr Dilima, I want to ask you whether you approached an attorney at all?

MANGALISO JOHNSON DILIMA: Yes, I did.

JUNE CRICHTON: Can you give me the name of the attorney and what has happened as a result of your going to see him?
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MANGALISO JOHNSON DILIMA: I went there and reported the case and he stopped me when I went there for the second time.  He said he was going to write me a letter.  I received a letter saying that I must come to him quickly, but when I went there, they said he was not there.  Maybe he was in Beaufort-West or Adelaide.
 They said they would phone me later.  I left the telephone number of the Nclapa family.

JUNE CRICHTON: (Indistinct)

MANGALISO JOHNSON DILIMA: Yes, that is correct.

JUNE CRICHTON: Are the pellets behind your eyes still there?

MANGALISO JOHNSON DILIMA: Just underneath my left eye.  I was short sighted for a long time.

JUNE CRICHTON: Thank you very much.

MANGALISO JOHNSON DILIMA: Thank you.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you Mr Dilima, you have given us a clear picture of your shooting while you were just walking, you had nothing to do with what was happening on that day.
 You were affected for the rest of your life because of that incident.  Thank you for coming forward to tell your story.  As you have requested, we are going to try to talk to the President and tell him about your requests that your health should be taken care of.
 We can see right now that it is very difficult for you to walk.  If there is something that we would like to get from you, we will come to you, maybe if we need some Doctor's Certificate, but for now, thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cradock — 1997-02-10

NOTUTU LIZZIE JAMES: No, there were no problems.  His teacher, when I told his teacher that the case was closed, he asked me as a teacher, why he was not called to the court to give a statement from a teacher's perspective.
 Because he even took his exam papers to show them, he was prepared to show them to the court, trying to tell the people that he didn't go to school on that particular day.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.

BONGANI FINCA: Mrs Lizzie James, we thank you for coming before this Commission and tell us this story about your son who was killed in this manner.
 We thank you that this story reminds us, and it also reminds the people of this country, that they mustn't forget that this country was liberated through the blood of people like your son, Rocky.
 I just wish that the Minister of Justice, Mr Dulah Omar, I wish he was here to listen to your story and the way that you were respecting the Courts of Law and the way that you lost that confidence in the Courts of Law because of the CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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case of your son and the way it was handled.
 Because that is showing us that the people who are our leaders today, they have to take further steps to try and bring back the dignity that the courts used to have.
 The courts that lost their dignities because of the people who were leaders of the time.  We also notice that your son died like a dog.  There was no compensation, there was nothing.  When the Commission will be making a report back to the President, we will also mention that as it shall be coming from most of the people who are coming in front of us, the people who sought help at the Courts of Law, in stead the Courts of Law acted with apartheid rules in stead of sympathising with the people who were in pain.
 We thank you Mrs James, we also promise that all that you have told us today, we will try as much as we can to deal with that in the correct manner.  We include them in the report back that we will be giving to the President of our country.  Thank you, you can take your seat.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cradock — 1996-02-10

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you Boniswa, by telling us your story which is one of the painful stories to all the people who are parents.
 Your son would have been 24 years now if this incident did not take place.  Maybe he would be an university student, maybe he would have completed his studies at an university, he would have started working.
 But his life was terminated in this manner.  We noticed in your story that you are giving us a clear picture of people who turned into animals, the actions of the police who were involved in the death of your son.
 And what you are trying to show is us that they didn't even have respect, they were taking his body up and down, whereas you being the family, you were grieving, you were grieving so that you can give your son a dignified funeral.
 You said all these things have troubled your life.  Thank you for reminding us and also remind South Africa about these things so that when we make the report back to the President, we make it a point that such things do not happen again in this country.
 If we are talking about heroes, we have to write your name down because you went through all this just because your son was involved in the struggle to end apartheid.
 We thank you so much, we are going to try and
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communicate with Hintsa Siwisa, the attorney to see if we can get the files and what actually happened to the files of this matter.
 If there are things to investigate, we can still come back to you if we still need assistance from you, but for now, we say thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cradock — 1996-02-10

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you Mr Makhawula.  I apologise for disturbing you at the time you were giving your testimony,
CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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but I wanted to ask you to refer to that man as an Indian man because we have to avoid to use an unacceptable language in our hearings according to the new laws.
 You have given us a long story, but you have given us a picture that would make us to respect the Cradock community.  The differences between the leaders of our people is a very painful thing to us.  It discourages any progress and any nation building.
 The differences between our communities, they lead to conflict amongst ourselves.  That is why when we were still fighting, we used to raise our arms and say Amandla Power.  We are trying to be united.
 You have given us a picture of the Cradock community and you have shown us that in such times, this community tried to be united.  Maybe that is why Cradock is an example to many places.  We have seen that in your statement there are things that need to be rectified.
 There are things that need to be said so that we can be united, especially us as leaders.  If there is something we can do as we are here as the Commissioners, to forward the step, we will happily do that because even now we believe that even if we are liberated now and we are represented in Parliament, we still have to fight for the nation building and this needs our leaders to be united.
 Your testimony was painful and long, but we thank you for letting us to focus on reconciliation in our own communities.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cradock — 1996-02-10

BONGANI FINCA: Mrs Polina Mbalula, we thank you for having given us this picture about your sister-in-law who was shot just walking around the township.
 It is clear that the police behaved any how, shooting at people.  You have given us the picture of cruelty beyond anybody's imagination.
 It touches us deeply when you tell us that when you were asking the police, who is going to breast feed this
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baby, and the police said, the corpse can do it.  That is cruelty.  This shows us that the people in the previous regime of this country, did not care about the communities.
 You have told us that this endangered your health.  We can see that.  On behalf of the Commission we sympathise and empathise with you.
 We promise that if we can help in any way by putting and recording your story in the report that we will be giving to the President, we will do all we can.
 We thank you very much, you can go back to  your seat now.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cradock — 1996-02-10

BONGANI FINCA: Mr David Mngona, I want you to explain to me or clarify here, when you found the corpse of your brother when Lieutenant Gerber was showing you, you said the body was riddled.  How riddled was the body of your brother?

DAVID VELELE MNGONA: His right eye was badly torn.  When I removed the clothes, he had a big hole at the back.  His private parts - there was another bullet in his private part.

BONGANI FINCA: When Dr Labuschagne was operating him, what was his opinion?

DAVID VELELE MNGONA: He sent me back to the police station to get his Death Certificate.

BONGANI FINCA: Did you get it?

DAVID VELELE MNGONA: No, I couldn't get the Death Certificate.

BONGANI FINCA: Do you think Dr Labuschagne is still alive?

DAVID VELELE MNGONA: I heard that in 1992 he committed suicide in Cape Town, by shooting himself.

BONGANI FINCA: If I heard you clearly, though you didn't mention in the statement, you said that this case was referred to Smith and Tabata van Heerden from King William's Town where the case actually ended?

DAVID VELELE MNGONA: I didn't hear anything thereafter.

BONGANI FINCA: What was the outcome?

DAVID VELELE MNGONA: They said even if it is after 10 years, they will still bring more information, they will still investigate this case, but 10 years passed, then I gave up.  That was until the Detective came and that is when I managed to get the Death Certificate.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you David Mngona.  There is a lot of painful things that you went through.  What actually happened to your brother Peter, which is clear that it was very painful as you are telling us.
CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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 But that was not the end.  That was yourself as we are seeing you today.  Your face here, you don't even have to tell us, we can see that you were injured by the very same people.
 What is actually touching us here as a Commission, is that when you were being asked about your wishes, things that you should tell the President of our country so that he can be satisfied, in stead of thinking about yourself, you think about the community at large - your community.  
 After you have been through all these troubles.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cradock — 1997-02-12

CHAIRPERSON: Xhosa, okay.  Thank you very much both of you by coming here to this Commission with this painful story of your husband's death.  But what is more painful is that your children were there and saw what had happened and this affected their health and their lives.  This is a painful story to you and to us listening to it.  We want to sympathise with you on behalf of the Commission and we heard your request about the perpetrators.  It is our aim that in order for reconciliation to take place the perpetrators must come forward and tell the people what they did and we have also taken note of your request about your children because they lost their father in this way.
 When we are going to report to the President of this country, we'll mention this and he is the one who is going to decide what to do with your case.  For now we can say thank you.  Thank you Father Hafke.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cradock — 1996-02-10

NOLIFISI EVELYN MOLOSE: Pardon sir?

MR SANDI: You said that the police at Pearston were very cruel?

NOLIFISI EVELYN MOLOSE: Yes, they were very cruel sir.

MR SANDI: Could you tell us exactly what they did that reflected this cruelty?

NOLIFISI EVELYN MOLOSE: They would beat our children up, they would take them through the night and they wouldn't sleep at home because they would be beaten up by the police.

MR SANDI: Initially you said there were 15 children, are you talking about children that had been arrested or children that had been shot?

NOLIFISI EVELYN MOLOSE: All in all there were 15 children.

MR SANDI: Had they been arrested?

NOLIFISI EVELYN MOLOSE: Yes, sir, they had been arrested.

MR SANDI: Does this number include your children?

NOLIFISI EVELYN MOLOSE: Yes.

MR SANDI: We heard from certain mothers here yesterday and today that before their children had been shot, the police would threaten the children prior to their deaths.  Had your children been threatened at all?

NOLIFISI EVELYN MOLOSE: Yes, they did threaten.  First of all they said that they would give them long sentences, so that there is no repetition of what they did.
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MR SANDI: Who said that?

NOLIFISI EVELYN MOLOSE: It was the Magistrate.

MR SANDI: And the police, did they say any like thing?  Did they threaten your sons' lives at all?

NOLIFISI EVELYN MOLOSE: Koos was the most cruel of them all, a Coloured police.

MR SANDI: Was he staying in Pearston?

NOLIFISI EVELYN MOLOSE: Yes, he was working there, he stays there.

MR SANDI: Is he there, where is he now?

NOLIFISI EVELYN MOLOSE: If I am not mistaken, he is still there, because he married a woman from Pearston.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mrs Molose, thank you Mr Chairperson.

BONGANI FINCA: We thank you both very much.  We thank you for coming forward with both your stories.
 We thank you for telling us what happened at East London at St Albans and East London to Buyisile and Mzwabantu.  I personally want to say I found your evidence to be special, unique.  I now want to see what type of place Pearston is.
 You struck me with your dignity and you just told the truth as is, you did not fabricate anything, you just told the truth as you understood it, that moved me very much.
 We thank you for the respect that you have given us reminding us where we come from back home.  Where elders show respect even to young people.  We thank you very much, may God bless you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cradock — 1997-02-17

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Xolile, it is clear that you had a very long testimony telling us about your torture as a leader of the UDF in Middelburg.  I think that if Matthew Goniwe was still alive, he'd be very proud of you right now. It is good that you came to Cradock to give evidence so that the Cradock people can see a product of their own products, because you say it is Matthew Goniwe who helped you to be the leader that you are.
 We were very interested in the form of torture that you suffered, we thank you that you divulged all this information.  What we are endeavouring to do is to expose to South Africa the forms of torture that our people went through.  These things were never publicly told previously.  We are also going to get the perpetrators so that they can tell us about their actions.  It also needs to be documented, all these methods of torture.  It is important in the human rights culture that the details of torture be exposed.  Thank you for the picture, the full picture that you have given us, this is significant for the report that we must give to this country at the end of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
 The requests that you have given before the Commission will be handed over to our President.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cradock — 1997-02-12

JUNE CHRICHTON: Thank you.

MR SANDI: I'm going to ask Mrs Hlomela.  Mrs Hlomela, you said Ncamile is a member of the congregation of the Jehovah's Witnesses?

AGNES HLOMELA: After he killed he just decided to be member of that congregation?

MR SANDI: You say you normally see him in town?

AGNES HLOMELA: Yes.

MR SANDI: Even now that he is a member of that congregation, you are still not on speaking terms?

AGNES HLOMELA: Yes he doesn't speak to me.

MR SANDI: How do you see this thing, that being a prominent member of the congregation of the Jehovah's  Witnesses, that still he cannot talk to people whereas he did this to your son?

AGNES HLOMELA: I am also surprised because I just greet him, I don't know why he's cross with me because what he did is not for  me to judge, it's for God.

MR SANDI: Thank you Chairperson.

MEMBER OF PANEL: Mrs Hlomela, the people who have done this mystery, were they policemen at the time or were they just working for the municipality?

AGNES HLOMELA: They were just Special Branch police.

MEMBER OF PANEL: The people who hired them, who employed them, what is it that they said after hearing about this incident?

AGNES HLOMELA: I didn't see them.  I didn't even see their operators after this incident.

MEMBER OF PANEL: Thank you.

COORDINATOR: Before we proceed, I wish records to show that there are two matters here, although they have been taken as one.  One relates to Tembekile Henry Qatana and it should be treated as a separate case and the one relates to Siphithiphithi Welcome Qatana and the witness is Namapondo Agnes Hlomela.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you very much for this explanation that you have forwarded to the Commission concerning Tembekile Henry Qatana and Siphithiphithi Welcome Qatana.  On behalf the Commission we sympathise with you.  We thank you that in towns like Middelburg there are people who are heros like you, because these events, it's obvious that they took place just because you were prepared to be among those people who were fighting apartheid so that there could be justice and unity of different nations.
 Because you have played that role, you found yourself in this pain. As you Henry, one of your arms was injured, the part of your hand is buried but you're still alive.  We thank you for bringing this story to the Commission because it explains that the struggle of liberation had been all over the place, people had paid a price for liberating this country.  We have taken not of your requests, we are going to forward them to the President.  For now we thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cradock — 1997-02-12

PAULINA MASELEPE KEKANA: At the time there was no one after Mr Mpepo and then after the riots he decided to leave Graaf Reinet and then we stayed for three years without councillors, but after the state of emergency councillors came again.

MEMBER OF PANEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR SANDI: Mrs Kekana. if I'm listening to you carefully, you mean that up to this day you haven't heard anything about who destroyed your shop.

PAULINA MASELEPE KEKANA: Even today I don't know, they just told me that after two years they destroy the files.

MR SANDI: You said at the time of this incident you were president of the BDC?

PAULINA MASELEPE KEKANA: Yes.

MR SANDI: Surely if it was doing the job of helping the people who have been detained in this condition, meaning that this organisation was favoured by the people?

PAULINA MASELEPE KEKANA: Yes.

MR SANDI: But this will also mean that because of the role that you played as a resident of Graaf Reinet that people were in favour of you?

PAULINA MASELEPE KEKANA: Yes they used to say that I am encouraging the children to destroy the peoples' properties and be involved in violence and they were querying the fact that I was helping the children to get food and clothes.

MR SANDI: If one can say there were two sides, in this case there were policemen and the residents but if I say that I don't have a doubt that this organisation was favoured by the people, is that right?

PAULINA MASELEPE KEKANA: Yes.

MR SANDI: According to your knowledge, who actually destroyed your shop?

PAULINA MASELEPE KEKANA: The people that I saw in the darkness inside my shop were two policemen who were big and huge.  Those on top of the hippo I couldn't see.  The other thing that happened, in the township they decided to switch off all the lights, even now there is sometimes only one light that is working, not all of them are working properly.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mrs Kekana, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs September and you Mrs Kekana, we thank you for coming to the Commission with the painful stories of harassment in Graaf Reinet.  We thank you that after all that there are still people like you and by being considerate Mrs Kekana when Mrs September's son was killed you gave us a clear picture.  In those days many people would say this is not my child and would just run for cover, but you have been considerate and you took care of Mrs September's child.
 We have taken note of the request that you have forwarded to the Commission of which we are still going to take a closer look at them and take them to our authorities during the report back.  We are gong to perhaps investigate some of the things.  If so you will be visited by the investigators of the Commission to get more details so that if we take a decision we'd be having sufficient information.  I thank you, I'm happy to hear you mentioning Chris Nissen who was our church minister in Graaf Reinet, he was also my best friend.  I'm happy to see that while he was in detention you used to visit him.  Thank you so much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cradock — 1996-02-10

NOZITHANDISO OLGA SIZILA: We came back in 1995.

MS MAYA: Why did you come back?

NOZITHANDISO OLGA SIZILA: I realised that it was difficult to live in Queenstown, because I was on my own.  I had to come back to my mother.

MS MAYA: Did you have a home?

NOZITHANDISO OLGA SIZILA: My husband had bought a house, that is where we lived.

MS MAYA: Thank you.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you Mrs Sizila, you have given us a picture, very clear picture about the ill-treatment, the violation of Human Rights in the struggle for liberation in this country especially women.
 Perhaps some people who are listening to you probably think it is a fairy tale that you are telling.  But those who know the gravity of the struggle for liberation in this country, are aware that women suffered a lot in this country in the fight for liberation.
 You have requested to the Commission, our duty as the Commission is to look carefully at the requests and then pass them over to the President.  It is the President and the Cabinet that will decide how things should happen.
CRADOCK HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
12
 There is a Presidents' Fund that is supposed to see to the needs that you have.  It is up to the President then as to how your needs are met.
 I truly hope that the President will consider your requests carefully.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duduza — 1997-02-04

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, is Ndumo.

RUSSELL ALLY: Sipho.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he here?  Okay, can we have Ndumo Sipho coming forward please.

MRS SEROKE: Sipho, Sokhela, Masesi Mqoma and Ntisingila Zondo, Ntisingila Zondo.  If they are around, please come and occupy the front seats so Zodo can, Zodo and Jafta can see you.  Also there is a wallet with car keys in it that is missing.  If there anyone who has seen it, please bring it forward.

CHAIRPERSON: Buthelezi, Mr Buthelezi, could you take the podium please.  Should we then ask Xaba Esau, Xaba Thabiso.  Sorry, sorry,  Mr Buthelezi, come, I am sorry.  Please, please, let there be order, please.  Mr Buthelezi, who is, who is accompanying you.

MR MASEBO: Lucky Masebo a close friend to Nhlanhla Buthelezi.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, as long as you will be of moral support to make each other feel at home. Okay, I am going to hand you over to Mr Hugh Lewin who will lead you with the oath and then the evidence.  Thank you, Lewin.

MR LEWIN: Mr Buthelezi, can you hear me through your head phones?

NHLANHLA JOHN BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR LEWIN: Okay, if I could ask you please to stand and take the oath.

NHLANHLA JOHN BUTHELEZI: (Duly sworn in, states).

MR LEWIN: Mr Buthelezi, we would like you please to tell us your story.  The story you have to tell covers not just 1985, but, as we understand it, 1986 and 1987 and if you are feeling comfortable and relaxed if you could please, in your own words, in your own time, tell us your story.  Thank you.

NHLANHLA JOHN BUTHELEZI: I will tell you about the torture and the harassment by the police and also how I was almost killed by the Comrades who are around here, some of them.  They alleged that I was a police informer.  I will first tell you about my detention.  In 1985 I was detained and taken to Denosa Police Station and they charged me under Section 29 regarding Internal Security Act.  There I was assaulted by Templeton Sibake who was my neighbour and a police at the time.  I was assaulted so severely that my private parts were severely injured.  I was handcuffed to the pole, the flagpole, at the police station.  I was handcuffed, maybe I should demonstrate how I was handcuffed to the pole.

MR LEWIN: Please do.

NHLANHLA JOHN BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was standing like this and they tied my, the rope around my legs to the pole and my hands were handcuffed to the pole and I was tortured until I started to bleed.  I was bleeding profusely through my mouth and my nose and they continued to torture me.  Templeton Sibake said to other white policemen I once was trained as a MK member out of the country.  Okay.

MR LEWIN: Sorry, did he say that he had been trained or that you had been trained?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duduza — 1997-02-07

CHAIRPERSON: ......Here today, they are in the room in the foyer, so if there are any people in the foyer who would like to make statements who believe that they have suffered gross human rights violations, there are statement takers from the Truth Commission who are in a room in the foyer. So please feel free to make statements.
 Can I ask our next witness, Johannes Dhlomo to come forward please. Welcome to you Johannes, before I give you over to Ms Seroke who is going to assist you with your statement do you want to introduce the person who has come with you.

JOHANNES DHLOMO: It's Joseph Nomalo, he's my relative, my cousin.

CHAIRPERSON: Welcome to you too Joseph.  I'm going to hand you over to Mrs Seroke.

MS SEROKI: Mr Dhlomo we welcome you all. Before you relate your story to us could you please stand up so that you can take the oath?

JOHANNES DHLOMO: (sworn states)

MS SEROKI: You've come here to relate your story with regard to two incidents that took place, the first one in June 1993 when you were a passenger in a taxi and you were shot at and the second incident took place in April 1994 at the hostel when you were shot at by the soldiers.  Just give us briefly the background as to what took place.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duduza — 1997-02-04

LINDIWE SARAH MABASO: They never came because we went to the hospital.  They only came to the hospital to pick us up because the hospital was full and we could not be admitted and they picked us up and took us back to our respective homes.  Only those who were severely injured were left, we were only going there for out-patients treatment.  They never came to take any statements up to today.

RUSSELL ALLY: And you are not aware of anybody else who the police went to to take a statement?

LINDIWE SARAH MABASO: No.

RUSSELL ALLY: Anybody else?  No.  Now in your statement you actually mention Inkatha as the alleged perpetrators.  You say and I am going to read from your statement.  On our way we were attacked and the bus was petrol bombed by Inkatha supporters.  Now, do you recall making this statement?

LINDIWE SARAH MABASO: No, there should have been a mistake.  I never mentioned Inkatha.  I do not know anything about this statement.  I know what I wrote.  I wrote that on the 28th, no, I am sorry, this statement has a lot of mistakes.  I am not the one who submitted the statement.  The person who submitted the statement is not present at the moment.  I know what statement I submitted.

RUSSELL ALLY: This is not your statement?

LINDIWE SARAH MABASO: No, it is not.  I think I am feeling a bit dizzy.

RUSSELL ALLY: Okay, I tell you, I think the best thing for us to do is to stop now and what we will do is we will try and clear up the confusion, because it could easily be our mistake that when we entered the statement, we may have mixed up numbers, because every statement which we enter into our database we give a specific number to and so let us leave that now because in your statement, I will not pursue this, because there were certain statements which you make where you implicate, this statement, not necessarily your statement, which implicates people and it is necessary for us to try and establish as much as possible so that we can go to those people who are mentioned and ask them to respond, but let us not pursue that now.  Let us try and sort out this confusion and with the statement takers and with the briefers.  At the end we will try and resolve this, but thanks very much for coming and sharing.

MRS SEROKE: I just, I would like to know as to whether Mr Mabaso was working at Escourt at that time?

LINDIWE SARAH MABASO: No, he was not working for Escourt at that time.

MRS SEROKE: Because I thought he was also working at Escourt because we would have liked him to give his own statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Mabaso, we thank you and we are going to correct this errors, as Dr Russell has pointed out.  Perhaps we shall still consult with you just to set the record straight.  We thank you and Mr Mabaso and the friend who came with you.  You can be assured that the record will be set straight.  Thank you.

MR LEWIN: I think some people, we could either break now for five minutes or just take the last witness

CHAIRPERSON: Let us take the last witness.

MR LEWIN: Yes, thanks.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duduza — 1997-02-07

CHAIRPERSON: Lillian welcome and thanks for coming, before I hand you over to Dr Randera who will assist you with your statement do you want to introduce the person you have brought with you.

LILLIAN MAMPURA: It's my uncle.

CHAIRPERSON: Your uncle, welcome to him as well, I'm going to now hand you over to Dr Randera.

DR RANDERA: Lillian good afternoon.  It's much cooler now thank goodness for the rain. Can you please stand to take the oath?

LILLIAN MAMPURA: (sworn states)

DR RANDERA: Thank you Lillian. You have come this afternoon to talk about your brother Lucky who was killed in Tokoza in 1993, but you also want to tell us about what happened to you on several occasions as police were looking for Lucky and that you became the victim as a result.  Can you take your time and just tell us what happened?