Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

CHAIRPERSON: And you would then patrol the Western Transvaal and protect this area as a Volkstaat?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that was your political motive or purpose or goal?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: There was no other reason why you wanted to go there?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure about it?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: At one stage, you were told that the elections must be stopped, can you remember your evidence?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, when the pipe bombs were handed out.

CHAIRPERSON: If they succeeded in stopping the elections, what then?  What would happen afterwards, regarding this Volkstaat?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: You ask that if the elections were stopped, what would happen then with the Volkstaat?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, something about the Volkstaat.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Then we would have protected the Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I do not understand.  You did not have a Volkstaat at that stage when you decided to stop the elections.  Now let us say that the elections were stopped, with the events that occurred, the AWB's activities, what afterwards?  What would happen then?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I believe that they would have given us instructions what we had to do.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not know what was going to happen?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: If I understand your evidence, it was not the purpose why you went to Ventersdorp and that is to stop the elections?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No we did not know what the plans were.

CHAIRPERSON: Your purpose was to protect Ventersdorp, not Ventersdorp, the Volkstaat?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said that was the only purpose?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is how it was conveyed to us.

CHAIRPERSON: When they told you that this is not going to happen, I think it was the evening of the 24th, forget it, then you had to realise then that there'll be no protection of this Volkstaat, is that not true, at that stage?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I assume then we had to protect the Western Transvaal that we wanted.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you were informed that this is not going to happen.  "We will not get a Volkstaat, either handed over or taken, forget about that.  Our purpose is now to stop the elections," do you remember your evidence?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you had to realise then that the purpose why I came to Ventersdorp in the first instance will not happen?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, that is how it was told to us.

CHAIRPERSON: And now you give evidence that in some way you reconcile yourself with certain crimes regarding the stopping of the election.  With what political objective did you reconcile yourself?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I do not really know what you mean.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you answer, let me then explain a bit more, just to be fair to you.  Why did you reconcile yourself with the stopping of the elections?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: To force - why did I reconcile myself in stopping the election?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is to force them to give us a Volkstaat Mr Chairperson.  That they must listen to us.

CHAIRPERSON: So your political purpose when you were at the farm or at Ventersdorp, do I understand you correctly?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, I don't understand what you're saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Initially you went to Ventersdorp to protect this Volkstaat.  At a stage when you were there you were informed, "forget about the Volkstaat, it is not going to happen, we will not take it, it will not be handed over," did you remember your evidence?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage you say that your political purpose or objectives then have changed and you took a different route.  That the elections must be stopped in order to force the establishment of that Volkstaat?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you were there, your political objective changed?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me now, what was said at that meeting regarding the fact that you must forget about the Volkstaat?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: They said Koper Myburgh told them that the pipe bombs or that the men must be brought together and they must be involved with the pipe bombs to create chaos, to create fear amongst the people and Prinsloo said that we can forget about a Volkstaat, we will not get it.  We must force them.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he say that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, he did.  That is what he said.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask you, what did he say?  He said that you must create chaos in the elections?  You will not get a Volkstaat?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, that is what he said.  At the end, we must forget about it, they will not give us a Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: And what else did he say?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is what he said in his last speech.  It will not be given but we must create panic and fear and create chaos in order to stop the elections.

CHAIRPERSON: And you reconciled yourself with those changes?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you think that the few pipe bombs would force them to give you a Volkstaat?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I thought that there would be follow up by the men as it was promised.

CHAIRPERSON: At this stage, when you were there, things went wrong and you then left and went to go home?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, that is correct.  That is where we went to the wives.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you were part of the preparations at the farm or where the preparations occurred at the farm?  That is now the game farm?  Is that not true?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I do not follow you now.

CHAIRPERSON: You then left the preparation and the planning, that is now from the shooting range?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.  Then we went to the wives.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think, well all these things now then stopped because the people were arrested?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: We didn't know then that they were arrested.  We went to go and visit our wives and some of the members wanted to go to them.  We were on our way back Mr Chairperson.  If I can remember correctly the following day we went back when we were on our way we stopped in Ventersdorp and then from there, on our way back we went to the shooting range and then we went to a farm where we heard from this lady that they told us these people were arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: What time was that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: When we heard that the people were arrested?

CHAIRPERSON: Was it in the morning or the evening, afternoon?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: It had to be in the afternoon.  I think it was probably midday.

CHAIRPERSON: Midday?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before lunch time?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, approximately then.  Because we left the women early.

CHAIRPERSON: And at that stage you thought nothing would happen?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, I didn't think that, that nothing would happen further.

CHAIRPERSON: Then why did you go back to the farm or the shooting range?  If you did not think that they would stop you, or somewhere a problem, why did you go back to the shooting range?  Because things continue.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: People were arrested, then I cannot go there.  That is my point.

CHAIRPERSON: When you heard that there were problems, did you think that temporarily, things would stop?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: How late that day did you realise that or thought that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: When the people were arrested and we started running away.