Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-14

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the adjournment at this stage, 10 to 15 minutes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS: .

<UNKNOWN>: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molefe you are under oath. Do you understand?

MODISE MOLEFE: : (s.u.o)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MODISE MOLEFE: Thank you.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair, Honourable members of the Committee by agreement we have agreed between the parties that I will conduct the examination of this witness first. With your leave (...indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: You may do so yes.

MR DORFLING: Mr Molefe could you please assist us with a description of the parapet where you were positioned? We are having photocopies made of a photograph that has not become available yet. Mr Pretorius might have that available when he gives evidence. But I just want to understand your evidence that at the place where you positioned on the parapet there are actually two levels on which one can stand? One that would leave the upper part of the body exposed above the parapet and the other section that would hide one beneath the upper portion of the parapet wall. Is that correct?

MODISE MOLEFE: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: Now to look at the crowd or to see the people in the street I take it that you had to be positioned with Veli Llale on the upper level of the two to look over the parapet wall. Is that correct?

MODISE MOLEFE: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: Maybe Mr Chair with reference to the photo album of the video footage that was used at the Shell House inquest I might perhaps hand to the Committee for purposes of their own referral the photographs in actual fact depicting just this. May I just have the witness to confirm this and then the honourable Committee can have site of this. Mr Molefe may I indicate to you the photographs in video 29, photographs number 37 and 38 in particular. Would you just have a look at these and perhaps you could page back to video 29 photographs 35 and 36 as well.

MODISE MOLEFE: Is that 29: 35 and 36?

MR DORFLING: Yes. If you could just look at the ones where you see either yourself or Veli Llale depicted on there.

MODISE MOLEFE: Thank you. (LOOKS AT PHOTOGRAPHS)

MR DORFLING: Have you got the pictures where you see yourself and Mr Veli Llale? There are just three or four photographs that I am interested in. Do you see those Mr Molefe?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes I do see them Mr Chairman.

MR DORFLING: It appears from those photographs that the upper part of your bodies are exposed above the parapet wall.

MODISE MOLEFE: Precisely.

MR DORFLING: As you stand there are you positioned on the upper level of the parapet floor so to speak?

MODISE MOLEFE: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: Could I perhaps just ask leave to hand that to the Committee to have site of that? I think it might be helpful. Mr Chair if I may be of assistance it is numbered video 29. I think the photographs I am referring to are 35 and 36 in particular and then on the next page I think there is a further two.

CHAIRPERSON: These photographs here, these two is that what you want us to see?

MR DORFLING: Those are indeed the correct ones and I think on the previous page is yet another two which depicts a similar situation.
	Now Mr Molefe that deal with the upper level or the higher level of the parapet. If one moves to the lower level, the sunken part of parapet floor do you agree that one's body would not be exposed over the parapet wall? One would actually be beneath the level of the parapet wall?

MODISE MOLEFE: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: Now at the time when the shooting commenced in your direction as you put it I take it that at that point in time to enable you to see the crowd you were positioned on the upper level of the parapet floor, the higher level?

MODISE MOLEFE: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: When the shooting commenced am I correct in saying you testified that you actually pulled Veli Llale down, did you at that point in time move to the lower level of the parapet floor?

MODISE MOLEFE: As I pull him down and we went to the indent when the shooting started.

CHAIRPERSON: Indent, is that what he is talking about?

MS MORAKA: Yes Chairperson.

MR DORFLING: Is that indent what I referred to as the lower level of the parapet floor?

MODISE MOLEFE: It is the lower level the walls are more higher that we can not see the marchers.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for my own clarification. Are we clear that what is called as the indent by this witness is in fact the lower level of the floor?

MR DORFLING: I think that is what I am trying to convey and I think the witness has confirmed that. But maybe just to clarify that.

CHAIRPERSON: I was puzzled by the word "indent" in that context. I didn't ...(inaudible)

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman if I may just interrupt. One of the TRC personnel was kind enough to make us photocopies of the top of the balcony of which we got a photograph, which we had a photograph. If I may perhaps hand this over to each of the Committee members as well as the witness it will be much easier to picture how the top of that balcony actually looks and what goes on at the top there.

CHAIRPERSON: Does it show what the indent is?

MR PRETORIUS: One can actually see where the indent is there Your Noble Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, let him have a copy as well.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairperson I may just place it on record that, that was actually made of a colour photograph. Just for clarity of the Committee I can hang the colour photograph up if it can just be returned to me so that I can endeavour to make colour copies before tomorrow for the Committee but if it then can be distributed amongst the Committee members it is even very much clearer than the black and white copy.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes the colour photograph shown to me conveys more clear than the black and white photograph. Now just not to confuse ourselves with this photograph that has been handed in an exhibit number, has anybody kept abreast with the exhibit number we are dealing with? Is it exhibit E.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair sorry I understood we are going to keep all the exhibits in bundle B shouldn't we just give it the consecutive number in the existing bundle B?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I am told it will be bundle B page 271.

MR DORFLING: Indeed Mr Chair that is correct. Our last document was 261 to 270.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you very much. Thank you for your assistance.

MR PRETORIUS: As it pleases the Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR DORFLING: Mr Molefe so we are in agreement that at the time when you perceived shots to have been fired at you from the direction of the crowd you pulled Mr Llale down and both you and Mr Llale went into the indent so that your upper bodies would not be exposed to the on-coming marchers. Is that correct?

MODISE MOLEFE: Not exposed to the on-coming marchers. I pulled him down because we were fired at. And we were exposed that shots could fire us. In that context.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes what it really means is that people could not see you. Those who were trying to shoot in your direction would not be able to see you if you were at the lower level. Is that correct?

MODISE MOLEFE: Precisely.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Can you, with reference to your own body height, indicate if one is standing at the lower level or the indent where the top of the parapet side would be with relation to your body height? Would it be higher than your head? Would it be lower than your head?

MODISE MOLEFE: Oh you mean in the indent?

MR DORFLING: Indeed Sir.

MODISE MOLEFE: My body will be lower.

MR DORFLING: I am talking when you standing up straight your body will be lower?

MODISE MOLEFE: Precisely.

MR DORFLING: Do you accept Sir that at the time of the inquest hearing you testified that you shot up and those are the specific words you used: "I shot up." Do you agree with that? That, that is what you said?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes I said so.