Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-19

ADV SIGODI: Was it you and the lawyer or was it you, was it a whole group of people and the person who came to take your statements?

MR MALAN: It was myself and the lawyer and many other people who were filling their forms for amnesty.

ADV SIGODI: Was Mr Morrison present when this form was filled, Malusi Morrison?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: And of the other applicants, who else was there?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: My co-accused were present, who are my co-applicants now.

ADV SIGODI: Were you all held in the same prison?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, we were in the same prison.

ADV SIGODI: So were you relating the story as a group to the person who was taking down your statements or were you just giving your statements individually to the person who was taking your statements?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Individually.

MR MALAN: Individually to the same person in succession or to different persons?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: It was the same person.

MR MALAN: You see Mr Mazete, the difficulty I have is that if I look at your application, the handwriting in which this was filled out I cannot find in any of the other forms.  The handwriting in the other forms, all of them, are totally different.  So it looks as if your document was filled out either by someone with knowledge, on your behalf or directly under your direction by an individual who certainly had by then not taken any of the other statements, not so?
	Sorry, let me just put this on record.  It's been shown to me that Tshoane's application is in the same handwriting.  That may explain the information that was scratched out, thank you.

MR STEENKAMP: Can the Committee attach any value to the information that has been submitted to the Committee in your application?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, they are obliged to do so.

MR STEENKAMP: Did you discuss this application, your specific application with your lawyer before coming to the hearing?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, we did.

MR STEENKAMP: And did you go through the application, did he go through the application with you?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: And you were then satisfied that this is actually - you were actually satisfied that this information is correct as far as you were then concerned, am I right?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you know if any AWB members were killed in this incident?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No, I don't know.

MR STEENKAMP: May I just have that answer again please, I didn't hear it.

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No.

MR STEENKAMP: You see Sir, according to paragraph 10(d) you're saying there, I read to you
"Politically and military as one AWB members was killed"
How should we understand this now?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: It shows the way he filled that.  He knew and then we agreed that that is how it happened and those people who were affected were like that, so that is the way I did not dispute that.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, isn't it correct that you were never a member of APLA at all?  Because this is what the investigating officer will tell the Committee if he is called.  You were never a member of APLA, you were only there to assist the gang in providing safe housing or a place to store the weapons away, is that correct?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: So you were never a member of APLA, because this is what you've just said.

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: So maybe I'm wrong but according to the previous applicants the amount of R4 000 was stolen or taken, robbed, at the supermarket.  You said you received R9 000, do you know where this money came from and who gave it to you?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No.  As I've already explained before that I didn't know as to whether there was money which was taken there.  And again I was forced by the police to talk about that money so that they would leave me alone.

MR STEENKAMP: Just one question I forgot to ask you, you just said you were never a member of APLA but in your amnesty application in paragraph 7 you stated that you were a member of APLA, why is that?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I don't know, that is the way it was written.

MR STEENKAMP: Returning to the money, do you know what happened to the money, the bulk of the money?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No, I don't know.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you know for what purposes money was taken?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No, I do not know.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, were you ever a member of PAC?  Am I right to say you were never a member of PAC?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is not true.

ADV SIGODI: I don't understand, what is not true?  Are you saying you were never a member of PAC or you were a member of PAC?  I don't understand.

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I was a member of PAC.

ADV SIGODI: Were you a member of APLA?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No, not at all.

ADV SIGODI: What was your role in PAC?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I was the General Secretary of the Student Wing, that is PASO.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you a member of the task force?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you tell me exactly what your role was in this whole incident?  What exactly was required from you to do, in this incident?  Exactly what was your responsibility?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: In the first place I drew the map of the supermarket and from there I hid their weapons which were used in that operation.

MR STEENKAMP: And that's all, am I right?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: Did any of the other people who were involved in the shooting inside the supermarket, some of your co-applicants, did they report back to you what happened in the supermarket?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Not at all.

MR STEENKAMP: When did you realise that the shooting incident occurred in the supermarket, when for the first time did you realise something happened in the supermarket?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: The following day, that is on Sunday.

MR STEENKAMP: How did you get to know this?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: By rumours, that such an incident happened in town and by seeing many policemen within the township, then I believed that that kind of an incident happened.

MR STEENKAMP: Did you have any idea why the supermarket was attacked?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No, I don't have knowledge.

MR STEENKAMP: Would you say, as a PAC member, that this was a legitimate target?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I don't know.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you know what the PAC police was on identification of targets?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No.

MR STEENKAMP: You joined - according to your statement you joined the PAC or PASO in 1990/1991, did anybody inform you what the function or the policy of the PAC was at all?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Since I joined the PAC in 1990, some of the people I joined with or I joined by or through them, told me all about PAC.

MR STEENKAMP: But you're not able today to tell us what the policy of the PAC was, am I right?

MR MALAN: Your question was whether he had any knowledge of the PAC's policy in terms of targets.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you concluded your questioning?

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I've got one or two, just basically one question left.  I was just trying to ...
	Sir, my last question to you.  Can you just briefly tell the Committee what your political motivation was for your part in this incident?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: My political motivation on this incident was because the PAC was engaged in war for liberation at that time, the work of the Military Wing which is APLA, was that to bring the PAC close to liberation for the people.

MR STEENKAMP: But what was your personal political motivation?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: To fight for liberation for the people.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP