Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: No I don't know what exactly would have happened in that specific case then Mr Chairman, all I can tell what the Security Police needed they could achieve by oppressing whatever charges was against them.   Joe Mamasela for instance was recruited by the Security Police in June 1979, Major Kruger in Krugersdorp prison awaiting a charge of robbery if I'm correct, of robbery.   He then approached the Security Police that he can assist them, opportunist that he is, and they then squashed that case against him and in August he was out working for the Security Police.   He was on a robbery charge awaiting trial in the Kurgersdorp prison.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Looking at this Lindley incident, if the police deemed it necessary to recruit Joe Mamasela for whatever purpose, and he does certain things, shouldn't the police simply accept the consequences thereof?

ANSWER: Not in the security culture, the main purpose as I described in this same document Mr Chairman, if you would allow me and the answer is a little bit long, I just say I will just come to page 9 of my manuscript where I say
"Illegalities in the course of duty (and I'm describing the Security Police culture in this introductory form)...illegalities in the course of
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MEMBER OF COMMISSION	140	D J COETZEE
duty often gave rise to illegalities outside the call of duty and illegalities outside the call of duty as well as by criminals outside the police force were condoned to serve the ends of the Security Police operations.   We were as part of the culture, quite unconcerned with bringing a car thief to justice if such a thief can serve our ends.   Our informants were quite typical criminals."

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just tell me where you are reading from please?

ANSWER: Mr Chairman it's paragraph 1.6 on page 9 of my manuscript under the heading "1 - Introduction" where I have a set out of the Security Police culture etc.

CHAIRPERSON: So it seems that the overriding concern of you and your superiors was to maintain the integrity of Vlakplaas, to prevent it from being discovered in any way whatsoever, to prevent any of its activities being discovered and that was the sole aim and purpose?

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The whole objective was to protect Vlakplaas and its members.

ANSWER: That's as security police...

CHAIRPERSON: That the objective.

ANSWER: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes now I'm talking about whether there's a political objective and it seems that the real objective was not a political objective but the objective was, a structure had been created called Vlakplaas, all kinds of offences were then committed and all things were done to maintain the integrity and identity of Vlakplaas, that was the objective
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of everything that was done.

ANSWER: Well Mr Chairman as I say, as a result of the (indistinct) chain, I did not know always how high up did the command come but I think again it is now public knowledge and no secret that Minister Adrian Vlok was at Vlakplaas after the Kotswe House bombing for instance to make it unusable and then was on the farm partying with the members, congratulating them on the operation and then going on TV and blaming the ANC for that.

CHAIRPERSON: So his activity would be regarded as part and parcel of the culture and activity of Vlakplaas that didn't make it a political objective as such did it?

ANSWER: I think one must look at it maybe, with respect,...

CHAIRPERSON: The fact that a politician does these things doesn't make it a political objective?

ANSWER: I think the end result is the Minister of that relative department is a member of the then Government or was and of course it is not Vlakplaas as such but one must see it in the Security Police culture and set-up and if one looks at it that the Security Police is actually the people who advised the Government on security laws and in a way was actually governing this country.   Stringent security laws were made by Parliament on the recommendation, untested evidence of the Security Police about the freedom fighters and the freedom organisations.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Coetzee would you then say that the State Security Council was aware of the then raging culture of deceit and cover-up by the Security Police in relation to their criminal activities which had no relation to the total onslaught against the liberation movements?
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MEMBER OF COMMISSION	142	D J COETZEE

ANSWER: Mr Chairman can you just please...

SISI KHAMPEPE: I'm just asking if in your opinion the State Security Council was aware of the then raging culture of deceit and cover-up by the Security Police in relation to criminal activities which had no relation to the total onslaught against the liberation movements?

ANSWER: I would not be able to answer that question because I don't know, I never had contact, personal contact with the Security Council at all.   All that made me wonder why didn't they stop all this Vlakplaas operations, why did the criminal activities escalate dramatically, apart from all the other illegal activities as far as security's operations, after....

SISI KHAMPEPE: How could they stop it Mr Coetzee if they are not told?

ANSWER: I beg your pardon?

SISI KHAMPEPE: How could they have prevented that if they had not been aware?

ANSWER: Well they could have pleaded no knowledge or, before myself and Almond Nofomela's revelations but for sure thereafter such serious allegations coming from your Security Police people surely people surely must have made the Minister get into his car and drive to Vlakplaas to go and see what is going on on this farm or, instead of going there and congratulating the people on incidents that happened three or four years, I can't remember when was the Kotse House bombing but to sort of go there and party with the guys and congratulate them on it, on their activities.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Coming to the diamond dealer murder, did Schoon agree to that cover-up with regard to the disposal of the body?
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ANSWER: He did, the radio of the diamond dealer's car was built into Brigadier Schoon's official vehicle, a yellow Cortina with a white (indistinct) top by Sgt Koos Schutte of the farm.

JUDGE WILSON: Did he know this, it's all very well to say it was built into his official car but I get an official car and I don't know where the radio comes from, it's just put there.   Did Brigadier Schoon know where it came from?

ANSWER: I say yes Mr Chairman, it's easy for him to deny it and say no.

JUDGE WILSON: Why do you say he knew it, we've heard a lot of accusations made by you, I want to know now why you say Brigadier Schoon would have known where the radio in his official car came from?

ANSWER: Well I made it known to him what happened, Sgt Koos Schutte did build the radio into his vehicle.   Colonel Jack Cronje on Vlakplaas, the Commander, it was after me Captain Jan Coetzee and then a Colonel Jack Cronje came to the farm and then I threatened whilst my phone was tapped and it was admitted in court and that it was tapped and it was illegally tapped during my departmental trial, I told my listeners on the phone, the upper echelons, that the later Chief of the Security Police, Lt Gen Piet Viljoen's wife was monthly drawing the illegal money from a non-existing source for months on end.   I then got a message from Sgt Schutte on the farm that if I would make that public they would, they are threatening to expose the diamond dealer, the Lesotho diamond dealer story.   I said go ahead, I did expose Joan Viljoen's activities, the wife of Lt Gen Piet Viljoen, it's in this manuscript, and up until this day they did nothing from their side as they threatened to do.
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MEMBER OF COMMISSION	144	D J COETZEE