Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-02

MR LAX: I am saying to you if you had waited for the people from Batong to come to your area and attack you, then the people that you would have, with Mpangaze's attack have assaulted or killed, or defended yourselves against, would be the people who were not innocent victims, they were people in the process of attacking you.
	If however, you sent Mpangaze across the river, to that area, he wouldn't know who to attack, he would just attack anybody he saw there.  All you did was define the boundary, you didn't say to him go and kill Joe Dlamini, go and kill Blose, go and kill Mthetwa, you didn't say that?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I did not say that he should go.  He enquired from me just where the attackers came from and where did they attack from.  I gave him that information that this is where they would attack from, and where they came from.
	I did not specifically tell him this and that house is responsible or what I did was tell him where they came from, and where they launched their attacks from.

MR LAX: The point stays the same.  It was against your policy to attack areas, you have told us that, you knew that.  Why did you tell him, no don't do this, I am not in favour of that, it is against our policy?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I would not have been able to do that, because he was also aware that we were being attacked day and night, and I would not have actually prevented him from doing what he wanted to do.
	I actually just gave him the information that he requested.  I could never tell him not to go there, because maybe people might have turned around and said, and been accused of letting my people be attacked, if I do not want people to go and attack those perpetrators.
	It could have happened that I may have been accused of siding with those people, so I could not actually have said that they could not go, or I could not have directed them to a specific house.   I could not have done that.

MR LAX: So you were more worried about accusations than carrying out your duties as a Commander, which is to follow policy?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Are you referring to the people in my area?

MR LAX: Well, you knew what your policy was as a Commander, not to attack people willy nilly, yet you were more worried about being accused than following the correct policy and in the process, probably innocent people died?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I do not understand quite well, I was aware of the policy that we should not go out and attack, but I could have not stopped anybody else because I did not know what his plan was, whether he would have gone across the river or what they were going to do specifically.  Their programme did not involve me.

MR LAX: But they were assisting you, they were there to assist you, they were there to prevent your community being attacked in the future, that is what you told us?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes.  If somebody approaches you with a problem, if maybe he says he has a problem with the men or the women of the house, and you offer your help, you would not necessarily ask how they were going to help you because it means that person has a plan of how they are going to help you, to assist you.

MR LAX: Yes, except that this was not an ordinary situation.  This is a situation of semi-war and you are the Commander of your area.  There is a duty on you to make sure that your targets are the proper targets.  There is a duty on you, if you want us to give you amnesty for this thing, to explain to us what steps you took to make sure that the people that were killed, were the right people, were the people who were attacking you.
	Not just anybody from that area, do you understand the point the point I am trying to make?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: It did not occur to me that they were just going to kill anybody.  As far as I knew, they also had policies of their own.  I thought that maybe they would meet the other group in a camp or maybe they had a plan of how they were going to go about doing this.  I could not have enquired just who or what they were going to do when they arrived there.

MR LAX: Just one last thing, you said you grew up using a firearm to shoot birds.  What sort of firearm was this?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: It was a long gun that you would actually put the bullets in front, and cock it.  It was used to actually shoot birds.

CHAIRPERSON: One barrel?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes.

MR LAX: What sort of bullets did you put in it?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Very light bullets which actually had a hole at the back and the front was actually round in shape.

MR LAX: So it was an air gun?  It didn't have gunpowder in it?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes.

MR LAX: From what you described, you described a pellet, it would have been a pellet gun that was fired with air?  Is that right?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I do not know what a pellet gun is.

MR LAX: The little bullets that you referred to was small, maybe about 2 mm's by 2 mm's, they were round.  The one front is rounded, the back is hollow slightly?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes, they were rounded at the front and they were shaped the way you indicated, at the back.

MR LAX: That is right, and they are about 2 mm's square more or less?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: They were very small.

MR LAX: Correct, yes.  Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlamini, when did the political conflict come to an end in the Ixopo area?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: It was before, just before the elections in 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you know approximately when you shot and killed that person who you later learnt to be Sithole, can you give an approximate date of that incident?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I am not sure, but I think that the police would know.  The police who actually went to pick up the body.  I think the police are the ones who would have full information.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it before the April 1994 elections?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think it might have been in 1994?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: No, I don't think so.

CHAIRPERSON: But it was after the other two incidents that you have described?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Lax wants to ask a further question.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, just one aspect I forgot.  According to our Investigation Department report, they found a docket which they have referred to, which has a January 1994 reference and the person that was killed in that incident, and who is listed in the report as the victim, is one Peter Gugu Mbele.

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Are you referring to the Ixopo incident?

MR LAX: Correct.

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I do not know that person.  I just got information this year when we were just discussing about the past, I am not sure whether that is indeed true or not.  That is what I heard, that he was from the Sithole family and he had played for Bongeni Mzizi's team.  He was actually a soccer player.

MR LAX: Presumably a number of people were killed at that rank in the vicinity of that rank, it would be a place where people could easily be attacked by either side?

CHAIRPERSON: Not on that particular day, but during the course of the conflict?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I would not be too sure, because people would be attacked and it is something that I would hear from other people.  I cannot be too sure.
	This incident was actually committed by me, but I am just not sure of his name.  I have actually not been able to actually speak to anybody from that area, who could actually ascertain for me who he was.  I cannot do this because I do not want to open the old wounds of the past.