Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: You see, reference to the first Planning Committee and as we were going to the Planning Committee, M.Z. Khumalo did not indicate or tell me that he was now in contact or involved with the whites or the Boers and that the Caprivi training was being orchestrated by whites.
	I got a shock on arrival there, that both Louis Botha the one who was Special Branch here in Durban and Louis Botha, who was a bodyguard of the IFP President, I used to see him daily.  I wondered what he wanted there.
	Van Niekerk as well, the one who no longer knew me now, whom I now knew that he was working for the Military Intelligence, was also there, and I wondered what he was doing there.
	And therefore it was my duty to ask him as to what was happening there.  Do you understand me well now?

MR HEWIT: Yes, but it doesn't answer my question.  What I want to know, was it the Planning Committee who made the decision as to who to kill or was it the people on the ground who made the decision as to who was to be killed?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: You understood me well when I said M.Z. Khumalo said Zazi Khuzwayo should be killed.
	I did not know where he got the instruction from, whether from the Planning Committee, I was not there when that matter was being discussed.

MR HEWIT: What do you mean when you say the leadership on the ground in any particular area, would be involved in deciding who was to be killed?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Listen now, you see the Caprivians on return, they were brought to a Chief's place or a Headman or at a Branch, that is the IFP Branch.
	I would speak to the Branch Chairman in the area, to say that these are the people who are going to assist you.  That is why we had offices all over Natal.  These offices were not put up there so that they could be used for writing and documentation.  The one purpose of deporting the people or seconding the people there, was to kill people who were against Inkatha.
	And therefore, they could not know who in the area was troublesome, the Branch leader was supposed to indicate who was troublesome in my area and Claremont itself, being so big, required that if a person was problematic, such persons should be removed.
	This is how it happened.

MR HEWIT: Have you finished?

CHAIRPERSON: Apparently so Mr Hewit.

MR HEWIT: Please turn now to page 235 of your affidavit.  I want to read to you what you said in paragraph 9.11.
	There you say, this system operated well and may still be operating.  The Caprivi trainees are still a close knit group who remain very independent.  There has been a certain amount of blurring of the different roles of each of the groups.
	Some trainees who were in the contra-mobilisation or defensive groups have been and are directly involved in violence and the killing of persons who are identified as enemies.
	This has just been a natural progression of their roles particularly because they were all trained in these skills.  Then, this is the sentence I am interested in, in addition to this, I eventually became opposed to reporting on all operations to the Planning Committee, because I knew that they in turn, reported to the Central Government.  Do you confirm that there?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Now, the Planning Committee that you reported to, according to your evidence, was done through one person, Mr M.Z. Khumalo, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: So, a stage was reached then if what you are saying in paragraph 9.11 is correct, where you became opposed to reporting to the Planning Committee, through Mr Khumalo?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: So you stopped at a certain stage, even telling Mr Khumalo what you did?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Now, here again it is necessary for us to understand your evidence for you to assist us and tell us when that would have been, that you decided no longer to report to Mr Khumalo on your operations and decisions and activities.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Let me say referring to the offensive group, this offensive group was the actual group that was the Inkatha hit squad, it resided in Port Dunfort.
	Its Commander was JP Opperman.  He stayed there with them at Port Dunfort.  My quarrel with M.Z. Khumalo was because I was asking about JP's residing with the group there, that is the offensive group.
	They then must be the people or I can say they are the people who were Inkatha and on this side of Inkatha, special reference to contra-mobilisation and the Intelligence were asking me personally as to we are going to be defended or fought for by JP, how much do you trust these people?
	You should not divulge this to M.Z. Khumalo because they are going to land us in jail.  Indeed, I can refer you to several operations that they conducted.

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Luthuli, the question to you was approximately when did this happen, what year, when about, that was what the question was.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I can say that at about 1992, 1993, somewhere around there.

MR HEWIT: But hadn't you already been to see Mr Vanni?  No, I withdraw that.
	You went to see Mr Vanni in 1994, didn't you?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It was late.

MR HEWIT: Towards the end of 1994?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: So would you say that the time you are talking about, was about two years before that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: Well, is that the time that you  no longer reported to Mr Khumalo or did you stop reporting to him beforehand, before that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Let me correct this.  You should ascertain which year this Committee I am talking about, came into being.  After I told Khumalo that I have a problem because the Caprivi trainees are asking me what the Boers are doing there.

MR HEWIT: Well, that must have been quite early on after you came back from Caprivi, that these people started meeting people like Mr Opperman, Jerry, Kevin, and these sort of people, isn't it?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Who was seeing who, I don't really understand the question.

MR HEWIT: It must have been clear to everybody soon after you had come back from Caprivi, that the SADF as it then was, was involved here.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: We were not told officially of that.

MR HEWIT: But you knew that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I was not told officially.

MR HEWIT: Look, you told us that when the Planning Committee was started, you only ever attended one meeting and never attended any other meetings, because then at that early stage, you had quarrelled about the fact that the SADF was involved, correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: What I am suggesting to you  if that was when you became annoyed about the SADF being involved, that must have been at a very, very early stage.  It must have been as far back as about 1987, because you came - when did you go to the Caprivi, in 1986 wasn't it?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I don't remember.

MR HEWIT: Well, there is more than enough evidence, I want to put it to you that you were in the Caprivi in 1986, for the training.  Do you dispute that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I hear you.

MR HEWIT: And then when you came back from the Caprivi, there would have been talk about a Planning Committee, fairly shortly after that, no later than 1987, would you agree with that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: And therefore it was at that stage that you knew then in 1987, that the military was involved, and you were not happy with that fact.  That is why you quarrelled with Mr Khumalo and you never went to any more Planning Committee meetings.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.