Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-31

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mohamed, for the purposes of what I think you called this witness, is it absolutely necessary to read out all his credentials?

MS MOHAMED: No, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let's get to the hub of the matter then.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Shabalala, did you meet the applicant around 1991?

TULANI SHABALALA: Yes, we did meet here in Durban.

MS MOHAMED: What was the purpose of your meeting?

TULANI SHABALALA: The primary aim was to discuss a problem of a person known as Steyn and his other name Mtagati, loosely translated a witchdoctor.

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me?  I didn't hear that last answer.

INTERPRETER: The applicant said the primary purpose of the meeting was to discuss Steyn whose other name was Mtagati, and I said loosely translated that means witchdoctor.

CHAIRPERSON: He said Steyn?

INTERPRETER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MS MOHAMED: Why did you want to discuss Mr Steyn with Mr Mpanza?

TULANI SHABALALA: I discussed the matter with Ziba, because he was a sniper.  I was looking for somebody who could kill Mr Steyn, because he was a problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shabalala, have you made application for any amnesty?

TULANI SHABALALA: No, I did not.  However, I believe that the leadership had submitted an application which included everyone.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, they have lost that application, if you did not hear, but be that as it may, I want to point out to you that you had not been subpoenaed by the TRC and in the circumstances, I am not too sure whether you are protected from prosecution.  I want to tell you or inform you that if that is so, you are not compelled to answer any questions that may implicate you.
	Do you understand that?

TULANI SHABALALA: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on, Ms Mohamed.

MS MOHAMED: Now, what did Ziba say to you after you discussed this with him?

TULANI SHABALALA: As a soldier, I had left everything up to him, because the situation was urgent, he promised that he would take action as soon as possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shabalala, I think I have discussed the matter with my colleagues, and we think it is safer to explain the warning I have just given you, much more.
	You see, to an extent, in terms of the Act under which we sit,  people who testify are protected from further, from having what they said here, being used as evidence in other matters, such as criminal matters, civil matters, in respect of delict.   But we have doubts as to whether you are in a position to claim that protection, and given that, you have been asked questions about an incident in which you may be criminally involved, for example this has already been done, so there is nothing we can do about that, is that you told us that you were party to a plan, a conspiracy to assassinate at least Mr Steyn, who is known as a witchdoctor.  Do you understand that?  Conspiracy is a crime in itself and you are not compelled to answer any questions that may lead to implicating you.
	Do you understand that?  You don't have to answer those questions which you feel, may incriminate you.  If you have doubts, you can ask me whether you should answer the question or not.  As far as I can, I will help you.  Do you understand that?

TULANI SHABALALA: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: So if you feel that you must answer a question which may incriminate you, please tell us that you have doubts about the answer of this question, and you think it would implicate you and therefore you refuse to answer the question.  Do you understand that?

TULANI SHABALALA: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mohamed, you obviously consulted with the witness, I am largely in your hands as to really drive this, to avoid questions that may lead to what we are talking about.

MS MOHAMED: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.    Mr Mayibuya, you have been sitting in the hearing throughout the hearing, is that not so?

TULANI SHABALALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I must say that I noticed you at the back of the hall, and I got the impression that you appreciated some of the questions that were asked, and the answers that were given, some of which did not even impress you?  Do you want to answer?

TULANI SHABALALA: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are aware of what was said here about this incident and how you fitted in there, whatever occurred.  Is that correct?

TULANI SHABALALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm what was said there in so far as it affects you or don't you agree with it?

TULANI SHABALALA: There is nothing that I do not agree with.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't wish to amend anything?

TULANI SHABALALA: No, there is nothing.

MS MOHAMED: Mr Chairman, if I may just have a moment.    thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, on that basis, I have no further questions for this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED

MR PANDAY: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MS MOHAMED: Mr Chairman, that is the applicant's case.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your lot, Ms Mohamed?

MS MOHAMED: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, have you got any witnesses?

MR PANDAY: No, Mr Chairman, no witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, I would like to call ...

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we take lunch now?  We will take lunch.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MS THABETHE: I would like her to take the oath, please.

CHAIRPERSON: Is she Miss or Mrs?

MS THABETHE: Mrs.

CHAIRPERSON: What language would you wish to use?

SHEILA MKHIZE: I wish to use English.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

SHEILA MKHIZE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

MS THABETHE: Ms Mkhize, is it true that you are the investigator for the TRC?

SHEILA MKHIZE: That is true.

MS THABETHE: Is it also true that you were an investigator in the matter of Mpanza?

SHEILA MKHIZE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Who is the applicant, and Malevu and Shandu, who are implicated persons in this matter?

SHEILA MKHIZE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: We have you here just to clarify one discrepancy, or a few issues in this application.   I would start with the statement of Shandu.  Do you remember going to Shandu in prison?

SHEILA MKHIZE: Yes, I do.

MS THABETHE: Can you tell the Committee what led you to go to Shandu in prison?

SHEILA MKHIZE: I went to Waterval prison which is outside of Newcastle to obtain a statement from Shandu and also to clarify some points that were not clear in the application of Mr Gerald Mpanza, and also to find out from him what actually transpired in the matter, because he had since been implicated by Mr Mpanza, the applicant.

MS THABETHE: Now, did you take a statement from him?

SHEILA MKHIZE: Yes, I did.

MS THABETHE: Is this the statement on page 13,  hand-written statement on page 13, 14, 15 and 16?

SHEILA MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETHE: Is this your handwriting?

SHEILA MKHIZE: Yes, it is my handwriting.

MS THABETHE: What language did you use when you were taking the statement?

SHEILA MKHIZE: We communicated in Zulu with Shandu because I knew that he was a Zulu speaker, I asked him and then he told me that he would be comfortable in talking in Zulu.

MS THABETHE: And then how did it come about that the statement was in English?

SHEILA MKHIZE: Now, as my evidence, I was forced and compelled to take the statement down in English.

MS THABETHE: Okay.

SHEILA MKHIZE: I would say it was translated by me from Zulu into English.

MS THABETHE: Okay.  In paragraph 2 of Shandu's statement, he states that he signed a form, sorry he states that although ...

CHAIRPERSON: Let's put it this way, in this statement it appears that he signed a separate statement, is that what it says?

MR LAX: They made a global application for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, it appears from that statement that Mr Shandu had indicated that he had in fact made an application together with two others.    That is the way to put the question, Ms Thabethe.