Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR STEPHENS: I think they were between Noord and De Villiers - approaching De Villiers Street, in the King George Street itself.

MR DORFLING: From a northerly to a southerly direction?

MR STEPHENS: Coming in a southerly direction, that's correct.  And then - well anyway, as they came up to De Villiers in King George Street, they slowly moved over De Villiers towards - well still in King George, coming towards - in a southerly direction towards Plein Street, that's when this guard ...(intervention)

MR DORFLING: Can I just interrupt you at this point in time again.  What exactly did - was the crowd doing at that stage?  What motions - if you compare it to your normal experience of Zulu marches, how would you compare the actions of the crowd as opposed to normal marches at point in time?

MR STEPHENS: Well they were jumping up and down and there was a - you could hear this "woe-woe" noise, obviously chanting, and that was about all that I could see from that distance anyway.

MR DORFLING: Did anything other than - anything other happen than what would happen in a normal march?

MR STEPHENS: At that time it didn't look any different to any other march, to me anyway, except it was a bigger than previous other marches that I'd seen.  That was the only difference.

MR DORFLING: Previously that morning?

MR STEPHENS: Previously that morning, and on other occasions.

MR DORFLING: If you would be kind enough to describe the way in which the crowd was moving forward, were they running forward, were they walking forward, what did they do?

MR STEPHENS: I'd say more moving forward, it's almost when they sort of half run on the spot, but sort of move forward at the same time.  But not fast, it was a slow movement forward, almost like a walking pace.

MR DORFLING: Yes, and what happened then?

MR STEPHENS: Well as they sort of crossed De Villiers Street, this ANC security guard opened up fire.  That's all I saw, and I never heard any previous shots, I just saw him shoot.

MR DORFLING: Is that the gentleman you were referring to that you earlier saw with the - what you believed to be an AK47?

MR STEPHENS: That's right, it was the same guy that was kneeling down.

MR DORFLING: If you say he opened fire, do you know the difference between automatic fire and single-shot fire?

MR STEPHENS: Yes, I do.  It was automatic fire, short bursts.

MR DORFLING: What was the crowd's reaction to this fire?

MR STEPHENS: Oh, they just dispersed with quite a few guys trying to hide behind - there was a vehicle in King George Street, on the corner - well on the corner of De Villiers, but in the southerly side of De Villiers in King George, and they were all trying to hide behind this car.  Other guys just ran down De Villiers in all directions, and up Noord as well.  They just dispersed within a couple of seconds.

MR DORFLING: How far had the marchers progressed into the block between De Villiers and Plein Street in King George Street by the time the shooting started?

MR STEPHENS: They'd basically just entered it, and then the shooting started and then whatever guys could probably ran in 5 to 10 metres inside - you know, looking for cover, and the rest of the guys ran down the side of De Villiers.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) again, all ran for cover, the people that were being shot at?

MR STEPHENS: Ja, the people who were being shot at by this guard, or the guard that I could see shooting.  They ran for cover, there were cars in front.  In other words if this is De Villiers and if this is King George - as they came into King George just crossing De Villiers Road, there was a car parked over here which was about 5 metres, maybe 10 metres inside in King George, they ran to duck behind - because the firing was coming from that direction, and the other people ran down De Villiers.  So it was basically as they crossed De Villiers that the security guard opened up fire.

MR DORFLING: You mentioned the gentleman shooting in short bursts of automatic fire.  At the time when the marchers started dispersing, was there still some fire emanating from the firearm of this guard you saw?

MR STEPHENS: Sorry, just say that again.

MR DORFLING: At the time when the marchers started dispersing, when they started running away, was the security guard with the rifle you saw firing on automatic firing, was he still continuing or had his fire stopped at that time?

MR STEPHENS: He was still shooting an automatic in short bursts.  The people had basically - well most of them had -there was a big gap, and everybody else was hiding behind the car, and he was still shooting on automatic at that stage.

MR DORFLING: Yes, you may continue Mr Stephens.

MR STEPHENS: Well then what happened was - well I also saw by that stage there was quite a few other guards standing around the guard himself with this Policeman that was standing next to him as well, and by then most of the people had dispersed and there was only people behind the car trying to hide away, and what happened was, he re-loaded and he was busy shooting on single-fire.

MR DORFLING: Are you referring to the same gentleman that was using the automatic fire earlier?

MR STEPHENS: That's correct.  Because he actually stopped, and I actually ran out the shop and then I actually - because I was trying to get the attention of the Policemen to tell them to stop shooting, because you know, there was basically people who were just like trying to take cover, and that's when another gentleman came across in a green - it looked like a safari-suite, but ...(intervention)

MR DORFLING: Sorry, could you just repeat that, when another gentleman?

MR STEPHENS: Ja, he ran across the road shooting with a 9mm, and that's when I ran back inside, and I actually saw him standing around the side because he - obviously he couldn't shoot them properly from the angle that he was at, he tried to get a better angle.

MR DORFLING: Can we just try and position this second gentleman you're talking about?  What firearm did he have?

MR STEPHENS: Well it was a handgun, it could have been a 9mm, I'm not sure, but it was a handgun.

MR DORFLING: From which direction did he come?

MR STEPHENS: He came from an easterly direction, he ran in a westerly direction down Plein Street, and he was looking straight on King George down the walkway, the pathway, so he could get a better angle at the people that were being shot at.

MR DORFLING: Was he positioned on one of the two pavements of King George Street, so to speak?

MR STEPHENS: Yes he was, he was positioned on the westerly side of King George Street.  He was there only for a second or two.  As soon as he had shot his loads, he had run back.  By that stage I was back inside the shop.

MR DORFLING: So he was positioned on the westerly pavement of King George Street, he was shooting in a northerly direction?

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR DORFLING: And can you just repeat, I'm not sure I understood you correctly, he actually crossed King George Street from the easterly to the westerly side?

MR STEPHENS: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: Why did he do that?

MR STEPHENS: To get a better shot, or a better angle at the Inkatha marchers that were all trying to hide behind the vehicle.  Because obviously from the easterly side of corner Plein and King George, his view was obstructed by the car that they were trying to hide behind.

MR DORFLING: And can you give an indication of the number of shots this gentleman fired?

MR STEPHENS: No, there was quite a few, but I couldn't tell you how many.  More than five or six.

MR DORFLING: When was the last time you observed the gentleman with the automatic rifle firing?