Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: We haven't got time, Mr Du Toit, we have got lots of work here so I want you to please focus and please do not try and avoid issues.  I put to you there was a telephone conversation that was - a transcript of a telephone conversation which had taken place between Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and one George which was intercepted by the security branch in Protea.  Do you recall that?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: It is possible.  I know nothing about it, sir.

MR VALLY: You know nothing about it.   I find this very strange that you say you know nothing about it when you personally took an affidavit from Mr Mabotha.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I know I took a statement from him afterwards, ja.

MR VALLY: So what do you know about it?   What do you know about the arrest of Mr Mabotha?   Besides the fact that  you were ordered to go there.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I had nothing to do with him except I arrested him, found documents in his possession and later took a statement from him and I have never as far as I know had anything to do with him, sir.

MR VALLY: Mr Du Toit, do you recall making an affidavit in this regard?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Ja.

MR VALLY: Do you recall what you said in that affidavit?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: No, sir.

MR VALLY: Do you recall who you made this affidavit to?  Who was the commissioner of oaths?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: No, sir.

MR VALLY: Well let me remind you what you said in your affidavit.  And please I want to stress this.  Let us not play games.  We do not have time to waste.  I put it to you that you knew why you were going to Groblersdal.  It was directly as a result of a bugged conversation that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela allegedly had with someone and when you arrived and arrested the man you found out more about who you arrested.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: As far as I know I didn't know when we went down there.  It is possible that after the arrest Colonel Grobbelaar told us what is happening.  But as far as I can remember ...

MR VALLY: Mr Du Toit you are here now.  I have asked you a question what do you know about that incident now.  Your pretence has been thus far all you know is you were ordered to go and arrest someone, which you did.  And you know nothing more.  Tell me what you know now.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Mr Chairman, is it possible to have all the statements and documents that happened that day then I can give more information.  I don't think even Mr Vally don't know what has happened to him eight or nine years back.

MR VALLY: Mr Du Toit let's not play games.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally I wonder if you must - wait a minute I am talking.  Mr Vally you are very close to harassing the witness.  I would be grateful if you would put to the witness what you have so that he can either confirm or deny.

MR VALLY: With all respect, Mr Chairperson, he has denied issues.  These documents were given to his counsel yesterday I believe and these were affidavits made by himself.

CHAIRPERSON: Please put it to him.

MR VALLY: I would also ask the Chairperson to warn the witness not to try and obstruct our proceedings.   This is your affidavit.
"I am number 489 ...  a lieutenant in the South African Police stationed at the security branch Soweto.  In 1989 I went to Groblersdal as a result of information to follow up information in connection with a certain black man called Themba.  It was suspected that the black man was a trained African National Congress terrorist.  On the 20th February 1989 at about 12h00 Themba was arrested by me and I was informed that his real name was Johannes Mabotha.  It was found that the person was a trained terrorist and related to the SAP.  He was arrested during his infiltration and declared himself willing to work with the SAP but deserted again afterwards.  I investigated the subject and found in the left inside pocket of his jacket some documents with some names and addresses on.  One document was clearly used by a state department.  It dealt with Stompie Moketsi, the youth activist who had been murdered in Soweto.  The document reads the information by JKM.  I confronted him about the document and told me that JKM was an abbreviation for Johannes Kabodi Mabotha and that the document was in his own handwriting.  He told me that he had been told by Mrs Mandela to go to Botswana and to send the information in the documents through to the newspapers in South Africa.  He told me that Mrs Mandela had written the message which was in her handwriting on a piece of paper and he was supposed to rewrite this message and after that destroy the original.  The document was given to him at her home.  On another piece of paper telephone numbers of The Star and Sowetan were found as well as the names of the Citizen and City Press.  He told me that the details were also supplied by her, Winnie.  I confiscated the documents".
Please have a look at this and see if it is your signature on the affidavit.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: It is my signature but I still don't understand the question.  This is exactly what I testified, that I arrested the man and that I found documents in his possession.

MR VALLY: Mr Chairperson, Mr du Toit is being evasive.  He said he had nothing more to do with Mr Mabotha except those issues.  I have put it to him that he knows a lot more.   However, let me proceed with asking him questions.

CHAIRPERSON: That would be very helpful.

MR VALLY: Thank you.  Do you recall who took this affidavit from you?  Did you see the name of the commissioner of oaths at the bottom of this affidavit?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I see it Mr Chairman.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us what the name is?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: It was Jan Augustyn who gave evedence to the Commission yesterday.

MR VALLY: Well Mr Augustyn  yesterday said under oath that he had nothing whatsoever to do with the matter of Mr Themba Mabotha.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I think this is true to take down a statement doesn't mean that you had anything to do with the investigation.

MR VALLY: I see so you're answering for Mr Augustyn.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: That is my personal opinion.

MR VALLY: Right let's go on. Let's see what you say in your affidavit and why I have got serious difficulty with your attitude.  Paragraph 2 of your affidavit, please look at it.

CHAIRPERSON: Of the affidavit of ....

MR VALLY: Of the affidavit submitted by Mr Du Toit yes, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Today?

MR VALLY: Today.  Which we got this morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VALLY: You were in Soweto from the 1st December 1988 to February 1990 in which period you moved from the rank of lieutenant to the rank of captain.  Is that correct?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Yes, that is correct?

MR VALLY: Let's go to paragraph 9.  Okay well - sorry let's just look at paragraph 7 first.  The second part of paragraph 7.
"I personally do not have knowledge of any reports associated with Mandela Football Club or with Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela".
That is what you say there.  Do you see that?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Yes, that is correct.

MR VALLY: How do you explain that in the light of this affidavit I have just read of yours wherein you talk about meeting - obtaining information from Mr Mabotha where Mr Mabotha allegedly has documents written in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's handwriting allegedly in connection with the death of Stompie Seipei.  How do you explain that paragraph of your affidavit in view of this earlier affidavit I have shown you?

MR KEMP: Mr Chairman may I be permitted just to come in here.  I think that the question must just be carefully considered.  What is stated in paragraph 7 is, and I will freely translate
I do not have any personal knowledge of any informers associated.
That is what is stated there.  It is not in contradiction with anything said so far and not in contradiction with the statement unless Mr Vally can show that it is in contradiction.  The question is unfair, misleading and incorrect.