Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-05

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I think he had a similar surname to yours, but it wasn't you, I think it wasn't Martini, I think it was Mr Martinez, I speak under correction.

MR MARTINI: But sorry, I thought, did you go make the statement to Mr Martinez, or whatever?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: We made these statements in their presence.

MR MARTINI: So it's not this attorney then from Athlone?  I'm not understanding your evidence.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Sorry?

MR MARTINI: This Martinez ...(intervention)

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, we trusted this guy from Athlone.  We trusted Mr Huxley.

MR MARTINI: Yes, but now you've said you made the statements to Mr Martinez from Johannesburg.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.  He came down from Johannesburg, he was flown down, especially.

MR MARTINI: Okay.  Sorry.  Sorry. Correct me if I'm wrong.  So you were basically assisted by this Mr Huxley attorney?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Because just correct me if I'm understanding your evidence correctly.  Mr Martinez wanted to take statements from various people who were present at the ELC the night of the bombing.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

MR MARTINI: Right now who was Mr Martinez?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I'm not sure whether he was linked to Lawyers for Human Rights.

MR MARTINI: And was he, did he tell you what the reason for wanting statements?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Once again I assume it would have been for either criminal or civil cases.

MR MARTINI: You were never told?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No.

MR MARTINI: Now did he come up to - fly down to Cape Town and meet you guys to take the statements, or did Mr Huxley take them and give them to him?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, Mr Huxley didn't take them.  He was here with - Mr Huxley was the one whom we trusted and who did the organisation locally.  This guy came down, especially for the statements.

MR MARTINI: So it's possible the handwriting is this Mr Martinez's, that the Chairperson asked you about?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

MR MARTINI: Because it's not your handwriting?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, it's not my handwriting.  I agree and I said.

MR MARTINI: No, I accept that Mr Alexander.  I'm just clarifying what the ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Sure.

MR MARTINI: So when he sat down and wrote out your statement, I'm assuming you're relating to him the story and he's writing it down?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Was he putting to you, you know Mr Hardien has been arrested and Mr van Zyl's been arrested for this incident and Mr Peaches has been arrested, did he put such questions to you?  Did he tell you?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, I've told you earlier that that was clear on the media but after a while Gakkie was back in the area and thereafter he left the area, so it's no, we knew that Gakkie was involved and it was Gakkie's deeds and there was State involvement, but where would we go?  I wouldn't go the ...(indistinct) police station to go and make a statement to that effect.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you proceed, Mr Martini.  Do you know Mr Wessel Rossouw of the Brixton Murder and Robbery Squad?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I don't recall the name, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Because he was the Commissioner of Oaths before whom you signed the statement, according to the stamp on page ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: There were a couple of guys from Jo'burg, but I don't recall his name.

CHAIRPERSON: It said: " Moord en Roof Eenheid, Brixton, Wessel Rossouw" and all the statements seem to have been made on the same day and before the same Commissioner.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.  All of the statements were made on the same day, but there were a couple of guys from Jo'burg, but I don't remember their names.

CHAIRPERSON: And so that statement, who walked away with it?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The guy to whom we gave it and there was a group of them.

CHAIRPERSON: So you don't know whether it was to be used for the police in their investigation or whether it was to be used by Lawyers for Human Rights in a potential case?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, Your Worship, I'm speculating.  I was assuming it was going to be for either civil or criminal investigation.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Martini,

MR MARTINI: Thank you Chairperson.  You say there were others guys with this certain Mr Martinez, is that correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR MARTINI: Were they police officers?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Well, that is what we assumed, but I can't remember them.  I remember Martinez because it came back to me when I saw him on television and it rings a bell.

MR MARTINI: Two olives, never shaken, slightly stirred.  Mr Alexander, so you just go in and you give a statement, you don't know why you're making the statement.  You see I'll tell you why, I was always under the impression this was as a result of the police investigating the bombing, that that's why you made these statements.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: My assumption was that it was for criminal investigation or a civil case, so I assumed and accepted it would be for that.

MR MARTINI: Sure, but 14 months later, here comes a chap Martinez, let's assume his name was Martinez, together with other gentlemen from Johannesburg, not even the Athlone area and they say now:  "We want statements from you" and you don't ask him:  "Why, what for?"

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Mr Martini, we trusted the lawyer from our area, hey and for a long while after that bomb, I would go to the area at night, into the area at night, because we were fearful, we didn't know what to expect, for about three or four months I wasn't really in the area. I would go into the area at night to get clothes, to get money for food, etc.

MR MARTINI: So you were afraid after the bomb?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, definitely.  We knew they wanted to hit us.

MR MARTINI: So isn't it correct when Mr van Zyl says that was one of the purposes, was to frighten you guys?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: In what regard, because we were not involved in any of those acts.

MR MARTINI: No, no, Mr van Zyl says the purpose of the bomb was to frighten you chaps and you've just conceded that you were frightened after the bomb.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.  Who wouldn't be?  If you were in a building where a bomb explodes, you're in the building, but you were supposed to be in that venue for that whole evening.

MR MARTINI: The point I'm making ...(intervention)

OESMAN ALEXANDER: You would be just as afraid.

MR MARTINI: I accept that, but the point I'm making, you were afraid afterwards.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct, but it didn't stop me from being politically active.  I was still and activist.

MR MARTINI: I accept that Mr Alexander, but it did have the effect of frightening you?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: ...(indistinct)

MR MARTINI: When you were making this statement, were you answering to questions?  Was this Martinez, or one of these other gentlemen asking you questions and as you were answering, they were writing it out?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: If my memory serves me correctly, they asked us what happened that night and in my own words, I gave it to them, which they took down verbatim.

MR MARTINI: So the purpose of your statement was really to give them facts of what happened that night, is that what you're telling us?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's what I told them.

MR MARTINI: Is that what you're telling the Committee?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Well, that's what I put into the statement, what happened that night.

MR MARTINI: But, listen to my question carefully, Mr Alexander, the purpose of your statement then was just to give facts of what happened on the night of the 31st of August 1989, is that correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR MARTINI: Correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

MR MARTINI: Could you - I'm going to work from Bundle D, the statement you said you also worked from, correct, the typed one?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's right.