Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-21

ADV MOTATA: Mr Menyatsoe, I think it would help us instead of saying what is in Mr Terreblanche's personal knowledge.  He asked you a question.  I think the proper answer if I listen to you well, would say, Mega City was burnt.  Not that Mr Terreblanche knows about that.  I don't think that is a proper answer.  Please just answer the questions directly and not hedge.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Menyatsoe, what is Mega City?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Mega City is the town just on the right hand side from this side, here in Mmabatho, a mole-like type of complex.

MR TERREBLANCHE: I did not know that it was burnt down.  You will have to tell me about this.  So these people who did not like Mangope then burnt this shopping centre.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, that is correct.  They barricaded the roads, they burnt police people's houses.  Civil servants were not going to work.  The hospitals were closed because health workers did not go to work.  They were saying they don't want Mangope's government any more.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Did they also throw stones when they blockaded the roads.  Did they break windows in shops?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes they barricaded the roads, they broke windows and burnt houses and shops.  They were not going to work.

MR TERREBLANCHE: If a road is then blocked, what happens to those vehicles there?  Must they go back or must they remain there?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: It will depend on the driver as to whether which direction it takes.  Everyone would take his own decision.

MR TERREBLANCHE: The fact is that he could not continue because the road was blocked.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: You would not pass easily or you'll not pass at all if you'll not go out of your car and shift.

MR TERREBLANCHE: In other words you had to get out of the vehicle if you wanted to get away from there.  Is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I have explained that it would depend on the driver at that particular time.  That would come from the driver's mind what decision what to do thereafter.

MR TERREBLANCHE: The driver decided that he drives along this road ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Terreblanche, is this getting us anywhere, what happens at a road.  He hasn't said each and every road was road blocked, he just in response to a question he said that there was burning, there was barricading of roads, there was civil servants not going to work, the hospital was closed.  And now is it really relevant for us to know what a particular driver, unknown driver, would do when he gets to a road block?

MR TERREBLANCHE: Yes, Mr Chairperson, it is relevant in the sense that according to my information and that is why I would like to put this question.  Road blocks were held when the AWB left Bophuthatswana, that stones were thrown and that out of fear, exactly what Mr Menyatsoe now answered, people protected themselves by shooting, if it was in the air or not.  Because at these road blocks if they were, could not continue, the windows would have been broken and would be then taken out of a crowd and be killed on their way back to the old South Africa.  It is very relevant to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then if you could put it to him, but for the witness to express an opinion what may or may not happen at a road block isn't very relevant but what you are stating may well be relevant, so if you could put it to him, rather than spend a lot of time finding out what the witness thinks might happen at a road block.  Just put it to him, what will happen at a road block and put the version and see what the witness says about it.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Mr Chairperson, I will then place it on record that Mr Menyatsoe said that there were road blocks put up.  Mr Menyatsoe is it correct if I say that to show that they are against President Mangope they also made use of road blocks and that they prevented people to continue.  I would just like to get your answer on that.  In other words then that the driver must then decide if he will get out of the car and walk or take a different route.  Is that what you said?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I said it would depend on a particular driver.  I did not know what the driver would think, what to do next in that kind of a situation.  I have explained that.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Yes, we then leave it there, Mr Menyatsoe.  I have got no further questions.  I am convinced that the advocates and his representatives will continue with the questions that I did not mention.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TERREBLANCHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van Der Berg, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

UNKNOWN: As it pleases you, Mr Chairperson, firstly I would like to ask forgiveness because I took out my jacket because of the heat.

CHAIRPERSON: Please you don't have to ask for forgiveness.  I should have mentioned it, if anybody wants to remove their jackets, please feel free to do so.  It is very hot in here today.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Menyatsoe, do you agree that this
incident took place on the 11th of March, 1994?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Mr Menyatsoe, when did you apply for amnesty?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I don't remember the day, but it is after I have appeared before the Tebbutt Commission.

UNKNOWN: Sir, will you agree with me that it was 18th January 1997?

CHAIRPERSON: I see the application form is dated the 8th May 1997, page 7 of the document.

UNKNOWN: It is indeed so, yes Mr Chairperson.  Sir, when did you go and see the lawyer of human rights or the lawyers of human rights?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I saw him before I appeared before the Tebbutt Commission.

UNKNOWN: Sir, would you agree that the closing date for amnesty was 10th May. 1997.  Is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: That that was at that stage.  It was extended later, but at one stage it was the 10th of May.

UNKNOWN: Sir, then you only two days before this time was extended, you applied for amnesty.  Is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I only knew that the deadline was on that date, but I know that it was extended.

UNKNOWN: Sir, why did you go and see the lawyer for human rights?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: May you please repeat your question?

UNKNOWN: Why did you go and see the lawyer for human rights?  Who told you to go and do this, or who recommended this?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I told myself.  I made that decision on my own.

UNKNOWN: When you applied for amnesty, did you know that Sergeant Nare was charged innocently of the murder?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I knew.

UNKNOWN: When did you know he was charged for murder?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I don't remember, I heard it from radio.  I don't remember the date and the month.

UNKNOWN: Mr Menyatsoe, when you learned that Sergeant Nare was charged for murder, why didn't you immediately go and apply for amnesty?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Every person does anything he likes at the time he wants.

UNKNOWN: So you have no explanation why you didn't come to the front and say it was you who shot the three AWB members?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Can you please repeat the question.

UNKNOWN: You did not immediately come to the front after you heard that, or let me put it this way.  When you heard Nare was charged, why didn't you immediately come and apply for amnesty?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I have already told you that every person has the right to do anything he likes at his own time.

UNKNOWN: Mr Menyatsoe, what you have told the Commission today, did you tell the same things to the lawyers of human rights?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Did you tell them everything you told the Commission today?  Did you tell all of that to the lawyers of human rights?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Other information surfaced because of the questions asked.