Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-21

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now you whilst you were testifying you mentioned the fact that Mrs Mbuyazi and others lay on the floor and due to further questions being put to you said it was, they were taking cover. Do you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I remember that well.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: As I went through your affidavit no mention is made of this incident of Mbuyazi and others taking cover lying on the floor.

MR HLONGWANE: It is exactly as you stated. What I would like to say here is things like for example the cutting of the hand of a person are not part of the affidavit. I am saying this now not necesssarily as an addition but I am saying things as they happened. These things are not included here because the ITU people are the ones who were taking statements from us. They did this hurriedly and after that they took us back to the prison because they were busy attending to many other things and therefore many things here were written down hurriedly.

CHAIRPERSON: I think also Mr Mpshe it perhaps seemed to be a not too important detail. It is just a detail of an incident. In the light of the whole incident is not very important the fact that they lay on the floor.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I stand corrected Mr Chairman. Now still on this incident you testified that this motor vehicle it did not move down the road. It left the road and parked in front of the road and people thought that they were attacked. Do you remember this incident?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is what I said.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now did you see this car at the time when it was approaching the hall?

MR HLONGWANE: No I did not see it approach. It saw it beaming its light just like the light behind you. It was beaming its light at the hall.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Ja but how can you now testify that it did not move down the normal road? It went that way and turned round and went to the hall?

MR HLONGWANE: I said I was inside the house or the hall and one Zondi from Johannesburg came. He is the one who explained that the car drove past the hall and made a U-turn and came back and beamed its lights at the hall. It beamed its light at the hall and people thought now we are being attacked. And they came to inform me while I was in the house. At the time people like Mrs Mbuyazi had already taken cover in the hall.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The movement of the car then is not what you saw. You were told in short?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In your own mind what made these people think that they were under attack? The people inside the hall?

MR HLONGWANE: I think because of the situation at eSikaweni you too would turn off your lights and television if somebody walked past your house. The situation was so tense at the time and that is what they thought. And they concluded that they were being attacked because of the manner in which the lights were beaming at the hall. The atmosphere was bad. One slight mistake, for example a person would draw his gun on suspecting that we were being attacked. People ended up not watching television in their houses. K2 is the only place where they used to watch television because people that used to kill were in K2. They watched television sitting down on the floor. For example we went to some place and we found these people sitting down on the floor and we therefore could not take our aim at shooting them. Places like H1, H2 those are the places. There are several things that I may not have included in the affidavit but I can explain to you the situation as it transpired at the time. I would challenge any member from eSikaweni to stand up and object to what I am saying. The situation at eSikaweni was extremely terrible at the time but only J2, that is where people would play their radios, watch televisions and that is only...

MR HLONGWANE: ...[inaudible] that was the information I got.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But you know Mr Hlongwane, you are so emphatic about knowing the mother and even told this Committee where she worked and that you even met her at the funeral and she's the person that told you to dig up the grave first and now you're saying you were told ...[intervention]

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is exactly what I'm saying.  The person who identified to me as Gendingani's mother is Koti ...[indistinct] who worked at Renkem.

CHAIRPERSON: But most people who know other people's mothers are just told that they're the mother, you don't actually know it.

ADV MOTATA: It's hearsay.

CHAIRPERSON: It's hearsay, it's like you knowing your birthday.

MR HLONGWANE: ...[no English translation]

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You testified Mr Hlongwane, very emphatically that you know Koti and you know that Koti is Gendingani's mother, even met her at the funeral and she is the one who told you to dig up the grave faster,  you were very emphatic about it.

MR HLONGWANE: I still maintain that even when we had our food, she indeed gave us food, that is what I'm saying.  I'm not changing from my previous statement.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, I'm going to make a request to this Committee to request one of the women in attendance to stand up so as to round up this issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly Mr Mpshe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know this woman?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I don't know her.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If - let her stand up please, if I put it to you that this is Gendingani's mother what would you say?  In fact she is Gendingani's mother.

MR HLONGWANE: This is not the woman that I know, I know Koti whom I've been told about.  I do not know this person.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Good.  Thank you, she may sit down.
	Do you remember what you said about this woman, particularly the fact that she is - no, no, when you said: "the mother" to Gendingani, is the one who said her son must be killed, do you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I remember.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And are you aware now that in the minds of the people in here who know her as being Gendinga's mother, that thing is still in their minds, do you agree with me?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I do but I wonder if you can allow me to explain that when I arrived Mandeni, Shakes and Gadebe told me that Gendinga was a problem and his mother had already agreed that he should be killed.  The Koti that I am talking about is a staunch IFP member at Mandeni.  If she was a tenant there, let it be clear to this Committee that the information that I received ...[intervention]

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee my intention is not and was never to stay any motions.

CHAIRPERSON: We understand that Mr Mpshe and we totally except what you say.

MR HLONGWANE: I was trying to explain that when arrived at a certain area I would be told about a particular person.  I am not from Mandeni not from eSikhawini but come from Hammersdale.  I am making an example.  I apologise in advance if I'm wasting the Committee's time.
	If for instance I was told that Zweli belonged to a member, to a certain organisation and maybe his brother is here, if I had been told by the leadership I would have to accept that information as it was.  That is why I accepted the information about Koti and that is why I say I know Koti and I it is she who said the person should be killed.  
	The person that stood in front of  us here I do not know but I know Koti who works at Renkem.  Therefore it means that because Koti was an IFP member - I think that because Koti was a tenant there, she used that opportunity to get him killed and devise a strategy of claiming that Gendinga was her child.  I am not denying anything but what I'm saying is that this is not the person who was shown to me or identified to me as Gendinga's mother.

CHAIRPERSON: Please, please be quiet.