Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-17

MR LAX: Mr Manjibani, please just listen carefully.  I know you may be getting a little bit frustrated and feel like you're being asked questions and you're not sure, that is how this process works.  So, please, Mr Mbandazayo's ...[intervention]  Now please listen to me. Mr Mbandazayo's about to ask you questions and we would like you to try and answer them without getting frustrated.

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: Certainly I will answer the questions, what you are saying is true.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'll pass that one.
	You have heard the applicant saying to this Committee that Mr Meyers was in the front, he was not at the back.  He was in the front when all this started ...[intervention]

MR LAX: Sorry, I think you'd better make that clear to him, he was inside the car in the driver's seat.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chair.

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: I hear him saying all that he is saying, there is no such, there is no such.  It is written there that you must tell the truth, in the emblem, that is the truth that I'm telling here.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry, I'm not disputing that you are not telling the truth but I wanted to get clear - I was not there also myself so we want to know, all of us, what actually happened in that place.

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: I'm not fighting with you, I'm explaining to you what I'm here about.  I'm not saying I'm speaking up for that white man.  If it was that white man that shot I would say that it's the white man that shot, I wouldn't lie about that.

MR LAX: It might just help if people in the audience didn't laugh.  It can be quite humiliating for a witness to be laughed at.

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: It's true please, they mustn't laugh.

MR MBANDAZAYO: My last question.  I understand you were shocked after this whole incident, am I that correct?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: Yes, I was shocked.

INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last statement?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: About me being shocked, yes, I was in shock because I could have died as well.  I was absolutely shocked and a part of me did die because I never thought such a thing could happen or I did not expect it to happen.  I was just there to help with the milk and people were happy to be receiving the milk but unfortunately disaster was about to strike.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And as a result of that shock, is it possible that you did not notice some of the things that happened thereafter because you were still shocked?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: Certainly, but I don't know if there is something beyond that the truck then drove off.  We then tried to take Meyers and put him in that van for him to get help and we went home.

MR MBANDAZAYO: It may happen that during the time of your shock you did not see other cars which were, any other car which was around there in the village?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: That is possible, what you're saying is substantial.

MR LAX: Isn't you're client's version: "the car could not be seen from the truck"?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, the witness has already answered my question.  I have no further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Will you look at that photograph please?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: Is this our truck?  Whose truck is this?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your truck and is somebody standing on the back of the truck as you were?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: Who is standing here?

CHAIRPERSON: It doesn't really matter, it's just somebody is standing on the back.  For the sake of the record, the photograph I have shown the witness is the original coloured version of the photograph 1 in bundle B and it makes it clear I think, that you can see quite well from the top of the truck on all sides except directly forward.  I don't know if this should go in as an exhibit.

MR PRIOR: It may go in as an exhibit.

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: Are you asking me?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no.

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: Alright.

UNKNOWN: Mr Manjibani, you had been working for Mike Meyers for three months you have said.

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Just estimate how many trips you had taken with him in this three months, not to this place but just the trips you had taken and just estimate.

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: That distance, the route that we used?

UNKNOWN: Not that particular one but leaving Nxobo to go to Umtata to deliver milk and go back.

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: Within a week we would travel each day, sometimes we would go to Idugua, Bhazia, do you understand?  Those are all the places that we'd go to. Each and every day we'd move from place to place.

UNKNOWN: Monday to Friday?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Now the only other area, and I know I'm repeating this question but I am a little confused about it this.  Just take it very slowly so that at least I can understand where these two men were.  Now you were on top of the truck you say, Mr Meyers was next to you along with your other colleague and they were working with you at the back?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: Yes.

UNKNOWN: These two men approached, one went to the front and shot rang out?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: Yes.

UNKNOWN: The second one moved to the right at this point?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: Yes.

UNKNOWN: From your observation Mr Meyers tried to get to his door but he was shot before he could open his door?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Now my only confusion is this, did the person who shot him shoot him from the back, that is from where you were around the back from the righthand side or from the front of the truck, the head?  The person who shot him, do you know if he shot him from the tail where you were, who shot Meyers, or from the front from the headlight side.  From which side did he shoot?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: From the side, the righthand side.  He came from the righthand side towards the front.  Are you listening carefully Ma'am?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: He then went towards the front, towards the door, Meyers was on that side from the back of the truck also going towards the front.  Are you listening to me, please respond?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I'm listening.

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: Perhaps you can't understand me that's why I need your response.  They then were coming towards each other.  This man then took out his weapon before they got to the door of the truck.  This was before Meyers could open the door, this is when Meyers got shot.

UNKNOWN: So would I be correct to say that the person who shot the first time, who shot Donnie Meyers, went around the front and then shot Mike Meyers as he tried to move backwards?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: Yes, you've got it now, that's how it goes Ma'am.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: What did the person who was at the back of the truck do?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: The man I was working with?

CHAIRPERSON: No, the other stranger who came.

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: I did not see him at all, maybe he was position wherever he was positioned.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was only one person who did all the shooting, who moved round the truck?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: The same person who was using a gun, is the same man who shot both people.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell me what sort of gun, what did the gun look like?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: I wouldn't know how the gun was but if you found a gun with him, it's the very same gun that he must have used.

MR LAX: I'm just a little bit puzzled.  You said the one person who was standing at the back went round the back, he took out a gun you said.  Now at that stage I thought you were talking ...[intervention]

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: Where the girl was sitting, where he was going to shoot.  We heard that it was a gunshot.

MR LAX: So you didn't actually see him taking out the gun, you just heard the shot?

TEMEGANE JOHN MANJIBANI: Yes, I just heard the shot.