Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-22

MS VAN DER WALT: And this order for this particular evening, you had to set up a roadblock, identify a target, kill these persons and then fall back?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct, that's how I understood it.

MS VAN DER WALT: Your relationship with Commander Kloppers socially, do you have the same respect or did you show the same respect to him that you showed him as your commander?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, there was a measure of respect but not such as when we operated in the hierarchy.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you look up to him still?

DEON MARTIN: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: You referred us to page 12 of Exhibit A, do you remember you are the one who drew our attention to that?  What point did you want to make there?

DEON MARTIN: It was point (c).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but what point did you want to make there?
MR MARTIN
"The following phase, actions of guerilla fighters simultaneously would be through sabotage, strikes and to put the government of the day into chaos"

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't this a discussion document, you know which the author discusses various methods that can be used to get power and then for example, through revolution?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct, that's how I see this document.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you produced this document when I asked you questions about the policy of the AWB.  Now, did the AWB then at some point adopt this as it's policy?

DEON MARTIN: This is phase one over which we had to write exams.  All the officers involved already wrote this exam and they knew the contents of it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I'm sure if you read books Mausetung you'll still find these theories about revolution, how it can be carried out and the like and I think the author of this book is expressing his views as to how power can be grabbed in a State, how you can stage a revolution or whatever, which is not what I'm asking.  What I'm asking is, did the AWB adopt as it's policy the killing of people for the purpose of achieving ...[intervention]

DEON MARTIN: What I can answer is that the whole phase was adopted as part of exams.  I would then say yes, it was the AWB's policy.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether you would know that but even members of the security branch when they are trained, they receive lectures to be told how terrorism is launched and all that kind of thing, they are told as a teaching material.  Is this not a teaching material, a reading material or is this the policy of the AWB?

DEON MARTIN: As I've told you, I believe it's definitely the police because it was written by the General and it was adopted and everybody writes about it.  And what I want to say is, the evening it mentioned to us it was revolution, in other words everybody knew what was written in paragraph 3.  I then see that this would be adopted by the AWB as policy.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that done?  Did you ever attend a meeting where the AWB - I'm asking you these questions because you are not the first member of AWB to apply for amnesty and I want to know from you whether it is your evidence that the AWB - I mean, I know, we know that they would issue militant statements that if the time comes they would be prepared to, if the time comes, they would if the need be, resort to whatever actions.  Now, I'm asking you, did the AWB at some point sit down and say: "Now the time has arrived, we are now resorting to military struggle"?

DEON MARTIN: All that I know of is that before this incident with us occurred, that we had several discussions with amongst others, General Oelofse, and it was always revolutionary talk and we all wrote this exam, we knew what the revolution was about.

CHAIRPERSON: But this is the material, I'm talking about the material, I understand what you are saying.  Possibly at meetings they said: "If the need arises, we will go over to the military struggle" and at any point, was such a resolution taken?

DEON MARTIN: In my opinion it was taken yes, it was adopted.  This whole phase was incorporated so I am of the opinion yes, definitely it would be the policy of the AWB.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the reason why you think so or that you say so?

DEON MARTIN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that because this document - this appears in this document?

DEON MARTIN: And that the officers had to write an exam about it, yes.

MR MALAN: Chairperson, if I could just ask here, this document was not dated but if we look at the contents of it, it should be around '85 at the latest because it refers to the President's attempts with the National Council and the UDF's activity.  It's not a new document, it's a document from round about '85.

DEON MARTIN: It's possible, I cannot five you a definite answer to that.

MR MALAN: When did you see this document for the first time?

DEON MARTIN: 1983.

MR MALAN: And you refer to 3(c), tell us how does this act that you apply for amnesty for, how does this fall under (c), under which parts, under which words? ...[Transcriber's own translation]

DEON MARTIN: The fact that it says that simultaneously there should be sabotage, assassinations, strikes, so that social chaos and political chaos could be established.

MR MALAN: So this falls under etc?  ...[Transcriber's own translation]

DEON MARTIN: Yes, I would say that, yes.

MR MALAN: So you base your case on the word: "etc" under 3(c) of this whole document?

DEON MARTIN: To put the government into political chaos, yes.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

DEON MARTIN: Mr Chairperson, if I could just refer to page 11, the last paragraph
"Middele tot Ons Doel vir die Volkstaat"
he talks about guerillas and guerilla warfare.  He says:
"Guerillas are small groups less bound to the strict work methods of any army, more manoeuvrable than an army, less bound to specific area which must be defended or conquered and uses much lighter weaponry.  The guerilla is not conditioned therefore to win on a specific battle.  If for instance he could attack the enemy, can shoot some of the enemy and escape, he would consider his actions as successful.  The victory van die guerilla lays in the successful carrying out of the revolution or the independent war as a whole. ...[Transcriber's own translation]
I wish to bring your attention to this point.

CHAIRPERSON: But the impression one got from your evidence was that this was not be a guerilla-like type of operation, the whole country is to be - that very night, the whole country is supposed to be under revolution, a real conventional type of situation.

DEON MARTIN: I see us as groups acting as guerilla groups and I would have believed that nationwide it would have been the same, that the small groups would have acted as guerilla groups and acted as guerilla fighters.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Martin, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED