Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-04-12

MR SIGUDU: As to the shooting I don't know how it came about, but I was there when it happened.

MS THABETE: I'm sorry, Mr Sigudu, you are not answering my question.  Can you give us a picture of what happened that day.  You went there, you saw the deceased, what happened, did she scream, how did it come about that she was shot?  I am sure you were there, you can give us a picture of what happened that day.  Please answer my question.

MR SIGUDU: On the day in question when this happened, we arrived there, Manqele was already showing this person and he shown this person to us as well and we went and we approached this person and my colleagues drew out their guns.  Suddenly, I heard a sound of a gunshot and when I looked I found this person was on the ground, had fallen and we heard the alarm, the sound of the alarm and we fled.  The police approached and they started shooting at us and Mvelase sustained injuries, just about the only one but he did not die, Mvelase that is.

MS THABETE: When you approached the deceased, did you ask her to hand the bags of money to you, did you say anything or your colleagues just drew guns and they shot her?

MR SIGUDU: When we got to her, they drew out their guns and they told her that
"We want money"
... and suddenly I heard the sound of the gunshot and we fled.

MS THABETE: Mr Sigudu, in the light of your testimony or your evidence today, what would you say you are applying for amnesty for?

MR SIGUDU: My reason for being here is to apologise for what happened, for what we did to the family of the victim.  It was not our intention to kill eventually, but as well as IFP, I would like to apologise to them and ask for forgiveness as well that we did not obey its policy and we found ourselves in that particular situation and we ended up doing what we did not intend to do from the onset and to the community at large I would like to apologise.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, that's all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Got any questions?

MR CLAASSEN: I've got no further questions, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CLAASSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Tsotsi?

DR TSOTSI: Did you yourself commit any offence?  The question is, did you yourself commit any offence in this matter?

MR SIGUDU: You mean before that or are you referring, which period are you referring to now, or then?

CHAIRPERSON: At that incident.  What do you hold yourself responsible for, why are you applying for amnesty?  In respect of which offences?

MR SIGUDU: Well, according to me, I would say I did commit an offence because I did participate in this, resulting in the killing.  I was part of this group.

DR TSOTSI: I see.  The offence was robbery and murder, is this what you admit you have committed, is that right?

MR SIGUDU: I may say that I only took part in robbing, not killing as such, but because that happened at any rate this is why I am taking responsibility and that's why I am here.

DR TSOTSI: Are you asking for amnesty for the murder or not?

MR SIGUDU: I think I also ask for amnesty because I played a certain role in this whole thing.

UNKNOWN: You say that you got instructions from Wiseman Kanyele, what authority did he have over you to give you that instruction?

MR SIGUDU: I wouldn't say he held a certain position as such or he was of authority, but he was one person who will always be present in meetings and such for the organisation, so that he is the one who brought this idea and this particular plan to us.

UNKNOWN: In other words you did not have any reason to follow him, you could have easily said, "no, I will not take part in this"?

MR SIGUDU: I wouldn't have done that because of the reasons he brought to my attention and I could tell that they were relevant and legitimate reasons and this is why I also, on my own volition took part.

UNKNOWN: No, the point that I am coming to is that you had no reason not to disobey him, you only fell in with the plan because you believed what he said, but he had no authority over you, that is the point I am coming to.  You didn't have to follow him but you did so because you believed what he was telling you but he did not have any authority over you?

MR SIGUDU: I did this because he was a person who respected the organisation and always was taking part in the activities of the organisation and to me appeared a man of substance and the reasons he brought and furnished to me were quite legitimate and because all this was being done in the name of the organisation, I fell into it.

MS THABETE: Who were the leaders of the IFP at the Dube Hostel?

MR SIGUDU: The leaders of the IFP were Mr Ndlovo and others that have left, like Mvelase.

CHAIRPERSON: That statement that you made on page 4 and 5, did you read that statement before you signed it?

MR SIGUDU: You mean page 5?  Please I will require the Commissioner to read it.  Oh, I know it.

CHAIRPERSON: You read it before you signed it?

MR SIGUDU: The person who wrote this statement read the statement back to me and I signed it.

CHAIRPERSON: And you agreed with what he read back, or she read back to you?

MR SIGUDU: Yes, I agreed with what the person read back to me.

CHAIRPERSON: These instructions that you talk about that came from Wiseman, what exactly was this instruction or instructions?

MR SIGUDU: The instruction that came from Wiseman entailed the plan.  Because of the situation that prevailed at the time, he felt it appropriate that something of this nature be done because things were difficult and the situation was not quite friendly and in case our members die we should be in a position to bury them and we should be in a position to protect ourselves.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sigudu, you know you are talking in riddles, it doesn't help your application.  Let me help you now, again.  You say the actual killing of this lady was never discussed, it was never part of the instruction.  All I want to know, in simple terms, what exactly was the instruction?

MR SIGUDU: The instruction was for us to get money only, that's all.

CHAIRPERSON: That's all, no robbery was discussed, no killing was discussed, just that you must obtain money?

MR SIGUDU: We should obtain money in the way of robbing, that's all.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, was killing this lady absolutely necessary for the robbery?

MR SIGUDU: I don't think it was necessary, but as I already explained earlier on, the person who killed her, I don't know what prompted him to do or kill the person or what led him to end up shooting.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) stand correctly you wanted no part of that, the killing part of this whole operation?

MR SIGUDU: Please would you repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: You wanted no part of the killing section of this operation?

MR SIGUDU: According to me, I will not say I intended to kill, that was not my intention altogether.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the lady armed?

MR SIGUDU: I did not see any firearm in her possession or with her.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you going to do if this woman resisted the robbery?

MR SIGUDU: Well, in that case I wouldn't have known what would transpire if she did that, if she resisted.

CHAIRPERSON: Come Mr Sigudu, you got an instruction to carry out a robbery for the organisation, you people discussed it, what were you going to do if she took that bag of money and beat you in order to resist the robbery?  Surely you must have considered that possibility?

MR SIGUDU: Well, according to me I did not even have any weapon in my possession and I would not have known what my colleagues would have decided to do, should that happen.

CHAIRPERSON: You're excused.  We'll take the lunch adjournment now.
WITNESS EXCUSED