Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... at his house that your husband was stabbed?--- No, it's not at his house. He was also a visitor in that house. Where myhusband was killed is at Ramahale's place.

MR LAX: Ramahale?

WITNESS: Yes, Ramahale.

MR LAX: Okay. You also mentioned to us that when you came out the ThreeMillion were still there, the people from the gang were still present, and theywere standing around.

WITNESS: Yes.

MR LAX: How did you know they were the Three Million?

WITNESS: I saw theirknives and I saw their spears and I could realise they were the Three Million,because they didn't just pierce you with their spears, they would even chopyou with their pangas.

MR LAX: So these were people that were known to operate in that wayin the area?

WITNESS: Yes, that's correct, Sir.

MR LAX: Thank you. We will try and follow up with these other peopleand see whether we can get any further information. Thank you, Chairperson.

MR LAX: This has raised another question now from the last speaker.Is there any reason why, when you were asked in the Magistrate's Court whetheryou knew the killers, and you said you did not know them, yet you realised thatit was the Three Million who had killed this person?

WITNESS: I wasscared. I didn't want to mention their name. I was very scared.

MR LAX: You felt that they will come back and murder you?

WITNESS: Yes,that's what I thought.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR LYSTER: Mrs Tipe, briefly. Do you know how long didthat gang operate in Kroonstad for?

WITNESS: It's difficult to determine, but theyhave been existing for quite a long time. But I think they were working underground.

MR LYSTER: And are they still existing?

WITNESS: No, not at this moment, becauseif they were there we would never be free at all.

MR LYSTER: Thank you very much, Mrs Tipe. We have watched you sufferinghere today, and we feel very, very sorry for you, deeply sorry for you. It isa terrible thing to have lost your husband, and particularly to have had towatch him die in such awful circumstances. As my colleague, Mr Lax, hassaid, we will investigate the inquest or court case and see what became of thismatter. We hope that just the process of telling your story here in front ofeveryone who is here today has made the burden that you have to carry a littlebit lighter.

MR LYSTER: We note your request for compensation and, as Mrs Gcabashehas said, the Truth Commission doesn't have the power to give you compensation,but our job is to make recommendations to the President, and we will make thoserecommendations on your behalf.

MR LYSTER: If you feel that you want counselling or medical assistancewe will try to arrange for somebody in the Kroonstad area to assist you in that way, so if you want todo that please speak to one of the ladies who have been assisting you todayand tell them that you would like to take that opportunity.

MR LYSTER: Thank you very, very much for coming in today.

MR LYSTER: (Incomplete) ... from time to time. They used to come and fetchhim when there were going to be rallies and riots. They used to take Thabengand arrest him. Then when he comes back he usually comes back very tired, veryconfused and very traumatised, because he said the police were always assaultinghim. These things made me feel very bad. (Pause)

MR LYSTER: I do understand as a parent too the feeling you are having.--- (Pause) We always had a problem with his father. There was no understandingbetween us. He always accused me and asked me why was his child being takenby the police regularly. He used to accuse me at all times. In 1990 it was ona Friday when he died. He was at work. He was killed by the Three Million gang.It was on the 1st. As from that day we had problems in the house. We had arguments,continuous arguments. He was buried. After his funeral there was absolutelyno life in the house. His father accused me of being the cause of the wholeevent.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... was on the 1st of June 1990. You don't rememberthe time when your son was killed?

WITNESS: It was at 6 o'clock on a Friday.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... Million Gang killed your son?

WITNESS: He used totell me that the Three Million Gang used to accused him of being active in theANC, he thought he was a better leader.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... he was killed you reported the matter to thepolice.

WITNESS: When this happened at 6 o'clock the police came the followingday on a Saturday. My brothers were there guarding the corpse, and when theygot there they were busy kicking him on the head, asking him where did he think he would end with the ANC.

MR LYSTER: What was to your knowledge the relationship between the ThreeMillion and the police, because you have just said that your son used to beharassed by the police, but this time he was not killed by the police, he waskilled by the Three Million? Do you think that there was any relationship betweenthe Three Million and the police?

WITNESS: At that time I hadn't yet noticed whetherthe Three Million Gang and the police had any relationship. We only noticedthereafter, because the corpse was taken by the police the following day. Thenwe thought they would come and investigate and tell us as to when we were supposedto appear in court, but they never came. We were the ones who took the initiativeand went to the police station to tell them that it's the Three Million Gangthan killed my son, and we wanted to find out as to when the case was goingto be heard. Since then they have never come to us until today.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... that when the police came the following day,and were kicking the corpse, they were celebrating the death of your son whichhad come through?

WITNESS: I believe so, because they were always harassing him atall times, and they hated him. In 1986 they arrested him, they kept him in custodyfor the whole year. They refused us permission to see him. They didn't evenwant us to bring things for him. That's the time when we realised.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... because a corpse is something which is verymuch respected. It means that the police themselves in the old South Africahad become really animals. It is the animals who could do such a thing to a corpse. Now, let me ask you another question. In your statementsomewhere you have mentioned the name of Madzela Georgie Ramasimongo. Can yousay any more about that person?

WITNESS: I didn't understand the question.

MR LYSTER: Is the name Madzela Georgie Ramasimongo familiar to you? ---Yes, I know this name. These were the leaders of the Three Million Gang.

MR LYSTER: So he was a leader?

WITNESS: Yes, he was the leader.

MR LYSTER: Do you know where he is now?

WITNESS: He was killed in Kroonstad.

MR LYSTER: He was killed in Kroonstad by who?

WITNESS: We don't know, becausewe only heard that he was shot in town. We never came to understand who killedhim.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... the matter was reported, and then up to nownothing has happened.

WITNESS: There's absolutely nothing that was done. In 1992,if I am not mistaken, there came policemen from Sasolburg. They took us andthey said they wanted to put back on roll the cases. They sat for about twoweeks investigating and asking us questions. They even asked us where the docketswere. But that's where the whole investigation ended. Nothing ever came of it.We don't know what happened to them.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... death certificate about the death of your son?--- Yes, I did get the death certificate.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... did get it. What do they say was the causeof the death?

WITNESS: They told us that they were still going to investigate asto what the cause of death was.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... you don't know.