Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-03

CHAIRPERSON: because they were part of the operation, so didn't you have an interest in regard to the disposal of the body in order to protect your people?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I say the exact instructions as to the disposal of the body, and where it would be disposed and how it would be disposed, I didn't have anything to do with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Just your own opinion, would you have disposed the body in order that it be found?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I think in this matter, if they had wanted the body to be found, I would have put it at a bus stop or something.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean, if somebody said to you Mr Baker, you get rid of the body, would you have disposed it in a manner with the intention of it to be found?  If you had to dispose that body?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I would probably have put it ...

CHAIRPERSON: Put it in a concrete and thrown it to the bottom of the sea, or the river?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I would have concealed it, yes.

MR LAX: If I may Chair, where did you think the body was going?  You have related a discussion that you have had here
"... Botha decided that her body should be removed and placed elsewhere."
	Where did you think it was going to be placed?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I don't know, I didn't know where they were going to place it, I don't think they would have wanted us to know because you wouldn't have wanted too many people to be aware of where it would have been placed.  Because they normally worked in a compartmentalised way and there are certain aspects that would be discussed in general, and aspects that wouldn't be discussed.  I wasn't told where it was going.

MR LAX: I didn't say whether you were told where it was going, I said where did you think it was going?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, to be quite honest ...

MR LAX: What did you think?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I thought the body was going to be dumped somewhere, to be quite honest.

MR LAX: Where it would never be found?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Well, I would presume they would dump it where it wouldn't be found.

MR LAX: Precisely.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Yes.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Finally, Mr Baker, I just want to sort of try and establish your ranks,  you say that - what was your rank in relation to Mr de Kock, I mean your level of superiority at that stage?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, if I can remember correctly at that stage Mr de Kock was a Major and I was a Captain.

MR WILLS: And so, would I be correct in stating that the rank structure would be Mr de Kock, then it would go through to you, then it would go through to Mr Coetzer and then it would go down to Mr Radebe and then he would be the handler of the two askaris?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, at that stage Mr Radebe was the black handler of the askaris, but his rank was higher than that of Sgt Coetzer.

CHAIRPERSON: He was a Warrant Officer as opposed to Coetzer being a Sergeant?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Okay, but in relation to, you see no doubt you must have discussed this operation with Mr de Kock and this event of a woman being killed in these circumstances, you must have discussed it with your superior?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I can remember, I did tell him as much as I knew of the operation, what had happened.

MR WILLS: Yes, because you said that you expected Capt Botha to discuss the matter with his superior, Gen Steyn?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: And consequently you would obviously do the same?  Now, did you have discussions throughout this operation with Mr de Kock?  Did you report to him on a regular basis?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: As far as I can remember, the normal, as I have said previously, this specific operation, I was not involved in.  I came into it on that specific day by being there at the base, but the general thing was that we would contact our Commander, Maj de Kock on a regular basis, to inform him of, to give him updates as to how things were going.

MR WILLS: Yes, and obviously it would be, Joe Coetzer would do the same, he would communicate with de Kock on a regular basis?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.  If Coetzer was there on his own, he would have phoned Maj de Kock.

MR WILLS: Can you comment on the assertion that Mr de Kock makes in his affidavit where he says, and I think it is sometime shortly after page 112, where he says that
"... Joe told me that Henti had already murdered an elderly black man, he informed me that Henti intended to murder the black woman that evening."
	Were you aware of this plan?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Just for the record, it is the bottom of page 112, over$to the top of page 113.  That is Bundle 2.

MR WILLS: So, in short, you were, your evidence is to the effect that at no stage were you aware of the plan by, or the alleged plan by Capt Botha to murder the deceased?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.  Ms Thabethe, do you have any questions?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair.  Mr Baker, before Khubeka came to the camp, you say you were speaking to Mr Taylor, is that correct?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman, is the question I was speaking to Mr Taylor?

MS THABETHE: You were discussing with Mr Taylor?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MS THABETHE: And you were in the other accommodation, where you slept, is that correct?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: Then when the car arrived with Ms Khubeka, did Mr Taylor leave you inside the accommodation?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, Mr Taylor left me as far as I can remember, Capt Botha came to the entrance and Mr Taylor got up and went out with him.

MS THABETHE: Were you left by yourself inside?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I was on my own at that stage, Mr Chairman.

MS THABETHE: Why didn't you go with them outside, I mean you had been talking about this incident?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, at that stage, as I said I cannot remember exactly what I was doing at that stage.  Why I didn't leave immediately.

MS THABETHE: No, no, that is not my question, my question is you had been discussing this with Mr Taylor, now the thing you were discussing or the person you had been discussing about, arrives, why didn't you go with them to see what was happening?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, may I just interpose?

CHAIRPERSON: I think they said they were discussing about the deployment of askaris and also the progress of the operation.  Did you discuss, I think it is better to put the question specifically, did you discuss the current operation with Taylor, while you were there, in other words how it is progressing?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I have said, the information I got on the operation, as I put out earlier, I got from him, he did discuss that with me as well as ...

CHAIRPERSON: And you were expecting people to come, to be brought for interrogation?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the question by Ms Thabethe is, why didn't you  follow out immediately, it was a fairly significant event?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I say I cannot comment on why didn't I, I cannot comment on why I didn't go immediately, I cannot remember exactly what I was doing.  As I said earlier, I could even have had a shower at that stage, I am not sure.

MS THABETHE: But Mr Baker, that is why I asked you before, when they arrived you were busy talking to Mr Taylor, isn't it, not that you were taking a shower or something?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: As I say, I am not sure what I had done at that stage, I mean if I was talking to Mr Taylor there and I had just come back from having a shower, then obviously I wouldn't have been dressed.

MS THABETHE: Are you saying ...