Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-06-28

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's what we're saying.  But he might not necessarily have pulled your pubic hair, he might have pulled your hair from head and your beard but not your pubic hair.

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: I think I would have seen him had he abstained.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Meyer.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I get clarity on one thing, Mr Meyer, with your indulgence?

MR MEYER: Certainly.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You are saying Mr Nesamari was the first to lay his hands on your body?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: No, Mr Netshivale was the first.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Netshivale was the first?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you, Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Yes but, Reverend, I don't want to labour this point but we're talking about an incident that took place 18 years ago and you are now taken to a place that you're not used to, you must have been in shock, and there is a whole bunch of people starting to attack you by pulling your hair from all over.  Is it not possible that you may be mistaken and that Mr Nesamari might have pulled the hair from your head and your beard but did not pull out your pubic hair?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Can I say this adage in Venda which will clarify my position?  In Venda we say (through interpreter)
"A victim does not forget but the one who has victimised does forget."
So the issue of a shock here in fact imprinted this picture in my memory and my mind that I don't forget and I will never forget.  So it is not a shock that might have encouraged me to apply and call for amnesia and say I've forgotten this and that.

MR MEYER: And yet you forget to mention to the HRV Committee that electrodes were attached to your private parts?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: I hope I made my point very clear, that before I appeared here in October, it was in this very same building, the TRC investigators took the statement down ...(intervention)

MR MEYER: Okay, don't worry, Reverend.

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Yes.

MR MEYER: We've covered that now.  If I can just have a minute, Mr Chairman.  Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEYER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Meyer.  Mr Van Rensburg, do you have questions you'd like to ask?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Can you just repeat the name of the first person who pulled your hair, Reverend, please?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Mr Netshivale.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Pardon?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Mr Netshivale.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Have you known Mr Netshivale before that day?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: No.

MR VAN RENSBURG: It was the very first time that you had seen him?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Precisely.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And you only learnt his name afterwards?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: That's right.

MR VAN RENSBURG: When?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: It was during my detention before I was released on the first of June 1982.

MR VAN RENSBURG: That you learnt his name?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: That's right.  I think it was precisely on 27 January when they took me to Chaukuma for further investigations.  And he was the first one who asked me a question, 'Why are you so happy?  What have you dreamed?'  Then because I was put in the van together with him and others, then they started talking about the names, then I could attach the names to this face that was imprinted on my memory.

MR VAN RENSBURG: So, this picture of Mr Netshivale pulling your hair was imprinted in your memory, is that correct?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Why did you then omit to mention his name when you testified before the HRV Commission?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: It could be the same thing, that the statement I gave to the TRC investigators has his name.

MR VAN RENSBURG: You mentioned that there was a lot of policemen simultaneously pulling your hair from all over your body.

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: That's right.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I think the word 'frenzy' was used by yourself.

SISI KHAMPEPE: By the chair.

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: I used scramble.

CHAIRPERSON: I used the word frenzy.

MR VAN RENSBURG: That is correct, the Chairman used the word frenzy.

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: I used scramble.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.  Okay, now would you then say that it is possible that it is not Mr Netshivale that came to you first to pull out your hair but it was rather a simultaneous attack by several policemen, simultaneously ...(intervention)

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: He was the first one.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Netshivale testified that he also slapped you with the open hands.  Can you remember that?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Oh yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Why haven't you told this Commission about that?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: No, I was told to confine myself on the things that these police people have denied.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that the very first point that was put to him by Ms Mtanga was just to concentrate on the disputed parts of the evidence.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I will accept that, thank you, Mr Chairman.  Was it during that same day that you were actually slapped by Mr Netshivale as well, on the 5th?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: I was tortured for solid three days,  6 January, 8 January and 12 January.  It's only on 12 January when Mr Netshivale was not present.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Would you then say, and bearing in mind Mr Netshivale had denied that he pulled your hair, apart from that fact, he has told this Commission everything that he has done to you?

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Yes, the slapping, yes he did.  And he admitted that.  I didn't see him attaching electrodes because I was covered with a bag, with a canvas bag but the fact that he refused that he pulled my hair, it may be that he's also refusing that he attached electrodes on my earlobes and parts of my body.  But that I can't hold him responsible because I was covered.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Van Rensburg.  Ms Mtanga, do you have any re-examination?

MS MTANGA: No re-examination, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Judge Khampepe, no questions?  Adv Bosman, do you have any questions?  Thank you very much, Reverend, that then concludes your testimony and you may stand down.

MRANGANENI PETROL PHOSHWANA: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, the next witness that I will be calling is Rev Phosiwa.

BRIAN PHINEAS PHOSIWA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Rev Phosiwa, I'd like you to confine your evidence to the methods that were applied to you which the applicants have denied having used.  Can you go ahead and give your evidence before the Committee?