Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-14

MODISE MOLEFE: Mr Dorfling I said again, I paraphrase myself. I said to the judge I have got friends of Zulus, I have got comrades of Zulus, I have got a leadership of Zulus. Bear in mind that in this inquest that the Zulus that I said I hate I have been specific. I said there was a Witdoeke in Cape Town. We had the IFP who abandoned the (...indistinct) on top of their head. Killing innocent people, killing innocent children. I know what they are capable of doing. If I had a chance I would have mowed them down. Not out of malice because I know what capacity do they possess.

MR DORFLING: Sir I want to put it to that it will now - I will continue reading the record and it would be quite clear that you indicated to Mr Justice Nugent that the people with the red cloths on their head were present on that day at Shell House and if you had the chance you would have mowed them down. That is what the record reflects and I will read that out now.

MODISE MOLEFE: Do you want my response?

MR DORFLING: Yes please.

MODISE MOLEFE: With due respect I am not a murderer. If they came and if I had a chance in defence of the leadership, in defence of the property, in defence of the human soul in that building, I know they do not know what a human life is all about, I could have mowed them down. Not because of hatred, not because of hatred. I know what capacity. They do not care for human life. Especially I suspect they have those who have been trained in Caprivi amongst them.

MR DORFLING: Is it your evidence that at the time when you fired on that day that you had no hatred in your heart towards specific members in the crowd of marchers? Is that your evidence?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes I do not hate Zulus. I make clear distinction. Those who tied the red cloth on top of their foreheads. I have seen them with my two naked eyes.

MR DORFLING: Let me read from page 3037 of the record, 3037. If you could just turn on three pages. You being asked on how you perceived the IFP at that stage. It is at the bottom of page 3036. That is the question posed to you by Mr Justice Nugent. And you explain the Zulu tradition and Zulu culture and how you used to be very proud of that. And how you used to go to hostels with Zulus. And then you say
"I was actually misled by these people. Today when you speak to a Zulu even my community they can kill you today after 1994 and not necessarily as I was at war with the IFP. No but certain elements within the IFP wanted this to happen. I used to be proud of the Zulu culture the shield whatever. I used to. Today even the Zulu song I hate. I must switch off my television today. I used to be proud."
You made it clear in no uncertain terms Mr Molefe that you have lost all your respect for the Zulus and at that point in time.

MS MORAKA: It is not my intention to interrupt my learned friend but if my learned friend would be fair and when he quotes to quote where the paragraph begins. The paragraph begins at 3036 and the paragraph does not say: "I hate all Zulu people." It specifically distinguishes and the distinction is drawn at 3036. My learned friend must ask questions in context and not pick out a paragraph that he chooses to pick out.

MR DORFLING: With the greatest respect Mr Chairman I have read out the whole paragraph. I have paraphrased the first portion starting from page 3036 at the bottom where Mr Molefe explains how he used to be proud of the Zulus. How he used to be proud of the beautiful culture. How he was misled. How he went to the hostels and that now there are certain elements within the IFP which he dislikes. That is exactly what I have read out. And ...(inaudible) I am reading as it appears on the record.
"I used to be proud of the Zulu culture, the shield whatever. I used to. Today even the Zulu song I hate. I must switch off my television today. I used to be proud.'
That is exactly what it is reflected on the record.

CHAIRPERSON: You have the record before you. Those are your words as they are recorded and you are being questioned as to whether you confirm what you said?

MODISE MOLEFE: Your Honour with due respect Mr Dorfling (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No. Do you confirm what is recorded there?

MODISE MOLEFE: It went down further. I worked with Zulu. I love the Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I have no doubt that we will hear about what you have said. The question is in that passage do you confirm what he said there. Yes your lawyer will clear up whatever has to be cleared up as far as other sections are concerned. We will move faster if you will just answer the question here. Alright?

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman if I may just assist the Committee. The portions that Mr Dorfling now referred to was actually in front of the Committee and it appears in file A as from page 91 onwards. It would be easier for the Committee to follow it and read it as it is in front of you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we do have it. Thank you. Yes Mr Dorfling will you proceed.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chairman it makes it difficult for me. I am rather going to now read the two pages not to be blamed for not putting (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No you just carry on as is most convenient for you.

MR DORFLING: But there is constant interjections of me being quoted out of context.

CHAIRPERSON: Well this is the nature of this wretched inquiry unfortunately. I am almost like sitting with 15 counsel all wishing to take part in proceedings and sometimes things don't run as smoothly as you would like them to. We just have to make the best of the situation.

MR DORFLING: We will do Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Just put your questions. I think the gist of the answers that you want they are recorded there and now let us proceed further.

MR DORFLING: Can I turn to page 3038 Mr Molefe at line 10. If you want to read the context you welcome to read from page 3037 at line 5 onwards. And I would like to concentrate on page 3038 line 12 onwards. If you would like time to have regard to the previous page 3037 and read that to have the context right please just indicate and I will give you the opportunity to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molefe take your time. Take your time and read it at your leisure please?

MR DORFLING: Mr Molefe can we turn to page 3038 at line 12?

MODISE MOLEFE: Clarification on what about the purpose of reading this?

MR DORFLING: I want to read page 3038 from line 12 and then I will put my question to you Sir.

MODISE MOLEFE: ...(inaudible)

MR DORFLING: No I think I haven't. We have just quoted the previous section which leads up to this specific passage which I want to quote. Line 12 Sir. Page 3038 line 12. You can perhaps start at line 10. I am asking you from your perspective - this is a question from Mr Justice Nugent. He was asking you from your perspective what did you perceive the Zulus to be or what did you perceive to be the position with regard to the Zulus amongst the marchers. And you respond as follows

MR DORFLING: " I am asking you from your perspective.

WITNESS: No listen Your Honour Zulus are Zulus.

MR DORFLING: 		Yes?

WITNESS: But all I am trying to say is Your Honour the Zulus who used to attack us in the location, the Zulus who used to be supported by the previous South African Police are the Zulus with this red cloth. Yes supported by everything. I put it by everything. Those are the Zulus I hate."

MR DORFLING: And then Mr Justice Nugent says: -

MR DORFLING: "But are those the Zulus that were in de Villiers Street on that day?

WITNESS: Ja they were, they were."

MR DORFLING: That is your evidence Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree with that?

MR DORFLING: Do you agree that, that was your evidence?

CHAIRPERSON: He Does not disagree with that because he has already mentioned about those people who wore red doeks and wit doeks who go around killing innocent people. He has already referred to that.