Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-23

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh I hope you haven't got more cards up your sleeve?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, as far as documentation is concerned I do have - I think had in my possession copies of the witness statements pertaining to that incident but they are my clients so I will quote from them but I don't think it's necessary for me to make it available but at the same time if you allow me I think if there's anything to be said about full disclosure and advising other parties involved in this hearing about documents, I think the finger is not supposed to be pointed at me but supposed to be pointed at the applicant and his legal representative.  If they wanted to make full disclosure of all relevant facts, documents, everything pertaining to the application then they should be the one to be under the obligation to make available those documents to us not for us to try to get it from somewhere else and then once we are confronted with them then they can say well we didn't prepare properly for this hearing because we don't have all those statements that our client made in preparation for this thing.

CHAIRPERSON: You know, Mr Hattingh, the person I regard as the best passer of the ball is retired from rugby long ago - Naas Botha.  It doesn't help to deflect that.  You produced a document suddenly - all I'm asking and the panel is of the view that it shouldn't happen again.  You had an opportunity this morning or yesterday or whenever you got that thing into your possession to produce it to the other side, indicate to them what you intended to use it for so that they can consult about it - we wouldn't have to waste all this time trying to find out and finally find out that it's not his signature.

MR HATTINGH: As you please.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, we have had a pre-trial conference at the beginning, I want ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, I think I've said enough, I think Mr Hattingh has taken the point, let's proceed.  It's seems like on two occasions I've asked and I've made special pleas - it seems you people are not interested in the communities welfare.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Khaba, I would like to refer you to page 204 of the judgement of Judge ...[indistinct] made at the time when you were convicted for the crimes that you're now making application for.  I would like to refer you to the middle of the page, approximately line 16 and that will also be the evidence of witnesses to be called on behalf of the victim, that you got - it's there stated on line 16 page 204 - that when you got to the disco you approached Obed or Obed and his friends and you indicated and you said "Pappa ek soek Obed" -"Pappa I'm looking for Obed" perhaps words to that effect in your own language.  What is your response to that?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: I don't know anything about that.

MR HATTINGH: I put it to you that in fact that you went to the disco with - perhaps before I go on, I'll put this to you - is it correct that your mother was also killed a few weeks, approximately six weeks previously?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Is it further correct that both Obed Nhlabathi and someone else were arrested for the murder of your mother?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: I only heard about Obed's arrest from the police.

MR HATTINGH: Just to put it in perspective is it correct that your mother was killed the very same night that Chris Ngwenya and his companions were involved in an incident where he got killed?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And is it further correct that you killed Obed during the night of the 29th May 1992?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Approximately six weeks after your mother had been killed?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Even though I am not sure how many weeks had lapsed but yes, such a thing did happen.

MR HATTINGH: And is it further correct that on that Sunday morning after the Saturday night when your mother was killed you together with the police and other people from the ANC went to the house of the brother of Chris Ngwenya?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Would you please repeat your question?

MR HATTINGH: Chris Ngwenya and your mother were killed on the Saturday night, that was on the 12th April 1992, is that correct?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: The following day, the 13th April 1992, you together with some of your colleagues in the ANC, your comrades, together with the police and the police vehicle went to the house of either Chris Ngwenya or his brother but you had a discussion or there was a discussion between Mr John Mndebele and the brother of Chris Ngwenya on that Saturday morning and you were present?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: No, I don't know anything about that, I hearing it from you for the first time now.

MR HATTINGH: From the side of the victims there are witnesses available, I just want to put it to you that they will state and they will testify that in fact that you were present on that Sunday morning with other ANC comrades as well as the police when Mr John Mndebele had a discussion with the brother of Frans Ngwenya - Chris Ngwenya - and at that time you indicated to other people, let's call them IFP people, the friends of Chris Ngwenya, that you were going to kill five of them?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Everything that is being said here is a pack of lies because at the time when my mother died I was still at the Goldstone Commission in Johannesburg.  I came back and I went back I think it was on Wednesday and everything that is being said here is new to me.

MR HATTINGH: Were you aware of the fact that Chris Ngwenya was also to testify before the Goldstone Commission on that Monday, two days after his untimely death?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: I did not know that.

MR HATTINGH: Can you tell the Committee, who shot first at the Dube Disco that night?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: It was the very same Black Cat members.

MR HATTINGH: Which one of them?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Even though I cannot remember very well but the one person that I knew to have been a very strong fighter was Gushu himself.

MR HATTINGH: Were both you and your companions armed with firearms?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: It was only myself armed with a firearm.

MR HATTINGH: When you shot at Obed at the disco, what was your reason for doing so?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: We were being pursued and shot at.

MR HATTINGH: That was your only reason?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Yes and that is because the community was - members of the community at the disco and they realised that we were the people who would come and assist and they decided to pursue us, shoot at us and as a result of our being pursued Obed died a distance away from where we were being pursued from.

MR HATTINGH: If you could just explain that - Obed died a distance away from where you pursued from?  I do not quite understand that?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Exactly, we were at the disco when we left, they pursued us and I ultimately got an opportunity to draw my gun and I fired.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] away from the disco when you did fire?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: I think it can be fifty to hundred metres.

MR HATTINGH: I just need some clarification on an issue with regard to the Goldstone Commission - you went to the Goldstone Commission, testified before the Goldstone Commission, came back to Ermelo and then went back to the Goldstone Commission and once again testified there, is that correct?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: When I was invited by the Goldstone Commission to go and give some testimony in Cape Town, I went to Cape Town and I asked to come back to see my family and then I arrived home.  That's when I heard the news - that's when I decided to go back to the Goldstone Commission, I had just gone back to see my family.