Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-17

MR VISSER: We know that there was a point at the fence, where there was a rendezvous that evening, where Botha and Ndwandwe climbed through the fence to the people who waited on the other side, that would be Steyn, Forster, Botha and Taylor.  Can you remember that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: What time in the evening was that approximately?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot remember.  All that I can remember is the time that we dropped them off and on the way back, we saw that there wouldn't be enough time to go through the gate.

MR VISSER: Which gate?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: The Culel border post.

MR VISSER: And what did you do then?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Wasserman and I turned away to Shlangana and drove around that way.

MR VISSER: Is that in Wasserman's words, to get to a tar road as soon as possible?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Did you burgle a house that night?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No.

MR VISSER: Are you aware of a burglary and money which was stolen from a house?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I heard about that from newspaper reports which I read later.

MR VISSER: Did you or Wasserman have anything to do with that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, not at all.

MR VISSER: Can you remember at what time you arrived back in Manzini that evening?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Mr Chairperson, it was early morning.  We arrived in Manzini, we slept in the bakkie for approximately an hour or so, and then we departed back to the Culel border post, in order to cross at about 7 o'clock in the morning.

MR VISSER: When you arrived in Manzini, you were then too late to sleep in a hotel?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: The following morning ... (intervention)

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon Mr Visser, sorry to interrupt you once again, you would have known that you would arrive in Manzini at such a late hour, why did you drive to Manzini, why didn't you just sleep somewhere near the border post?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, we had planned to go to Manzini, and as a result of the road, we didn't think that we were going to be driving for such a long time, and seeing as we were on our way, we decided to continue.

MR MALAN: Well, seeing as you were on the tar road, you could have predicted your time of arrival at Manzini, that would have been easier?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, but we became stuck quite a number of times on the road that we were taking, and we decided not to take that road back.

MR VISSER: That is the road which we are referring to as the Hluti road?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And Wasserman has told the Committee that that was very muddy?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, yes.

MR VISSER: The following morning you left and you arrived at the Onverwacht police house?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR VISSER: An you remember approximately what time that was?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It was approximately 7 o'clock when we went through the border post.

MR VISSER: And did you find Ms Ndwandwe there along with Forster, Steyn and Taylor and Botha?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Did you participate in her interrogation?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Mr Chairperson, Ms Ndwandwe was put in the kombi and taken back to Pietermaritzburg, that was shortly after our arrival, we hadn't been there for very long.

MR VISSER: Did you enter Swaziland with a legal passport?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, it was a false passport.

MR VISSER: You then departed for Pietermaritzburg, is which vehicle.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, just on that point, do you still remember the name under which you left?

MR VISSER: The name of the passport, the name under which the passport was issued, can you remember that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I think it was Du Toit.

MR MALAN: How many false passports did you have?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I only had the one.

MR MALAN: Do you think it was Du Toit or do you know it was Du Toit?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It was Du Toit, I am not entirely certain about the name.

MR VISSER: In which vehicle did you journey to Pietermaritzburg?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I drove the kombi.

MR VISSER: And were Botha and Ndwandwe in the back of the kombi?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Could you hear what the contents of their discussion was?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson, there was a partition which divided the driver from the back of the kombi.

MR VISSER: This kombi, what was it usually used for?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It was an observation vehicle.

MR VISSER: But Visagie changed it, we heard that.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR VISSER: What were the changes in principle which he brought about?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: There were large periscopes and other such apparatus with which to undertake observation, they were mounted into the kombi so that one could make observations of what was outside.

MR VISSER: And that was removed?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that was removed.

MR VISSER: The tables and that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, that as well.

MR VISSER: You then arrived in Pietermaritzburg.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Did you participate in any interrogation of Ndwandwe while you were there?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I did ask her some questions.

MR VISSER: Did you assault her?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: At no stage.

MR VISSER: What was Ndwandwe's attitude regarding the questions which were put to her, did she provide any answers or did she refuse to answer?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: She gave me answers and regarding the persons in terms of whom I made requests, she gave me the names.

MR VISSER: Mr Forster yesterday indicated that she was proud of her activities.  What was your impression?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That was not my impression.  The questions which I put to her, were answered very concisely and I never obtained that impression during my interrogation of her.

MR VISSER: At a certain stage, Ms Ndwandwe was killed in the district of Elandskop.  Did you have anything to do with that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Can you tell us how it occurred?

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon, one more interruption while we are on this point.    You said that she answered very concisely.  Were you trying to see whether or not she would be suitable for recruitment?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I did not consider it at that stage, it did not come up in my mind as a consideration.

MR MALAN: Was that not the primary reason for the abduction, isn't that what you told us?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Mr Chairperson, at that stage of my interrogation of her, I think it had already been decided that she would be killed.

MR MALAN: Who told you that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I deduced that from Mr Botha and Mr Taylor and Mr Steyn's discussion.

MR MALAN: Which discussion are you referring to?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It was decided, when it was decided that she would not be recruited, it became generally known that she would not be applied as an informer and at that stage Taylor gave Wasserman and I the order to dig the grave.