Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

FRANK CHIKANE: Well, I suppose it depended on what issue we were raising at any given time, if you look at Annexure C, of our submission, we talk there about having approached her and we put to her the allegations which were made about the children, namely that they were removed from the Methodist Church against their will and that they were assaulted.
 She promised at the time to give us access to the children which she later did and we saw the children, but you will see that in the same Annexure we talk about a meeting which was held in Dobsonville by various organs that were affiliated to the UDF then. 
 Page 3 of that Annexure tells you about the resolutions which were adopted at that meeting - 1 to 5. I want . . . (indistinct) read them and when those resolutions were conveyed to her and I will read this part.
"When Winnie was informed about the decisions of the meeting, her immediate response was to demand a list of all the people who were at the meeting, she seems to think that she is above the community, that was our opinion. She shows utter contempt for both the Crisis Committee and the Community. She had started accusing the Crisis Committee of all sorts of petty things like
(1) that the Crisis Committee is conniving with the Community. The reason for that accusation when the Community organisations invited us to attend the meeting, we obliged. 
(2) The Crisis Committee communicates with Madiba and/or behind her back. 
(3) The Crisis Committee is assisting the police by investigating this abduction allegation. 
(4) The SACC and the Christian Institute which we thought was an apparent reference to Frank, Rev Frank Chikane and Dr Naude are wolves in sheep skins." 
 Now I am saying it depended on what issue we were raising at any given time as to what would be her attitude towards the Crisis Committee. I hope that answers your question.

MR VALLY: : Thanks, it does. This document was put to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, Page 66, second Section 29 Inquiry, the one you have just read, Annexure C. I ask the question
"You are aware of the report sent by what was called the Mandela Crisis Committee to the then President of the ANC, Oliver Tambo where they referred to the retractions?"
the retractions I was referring to was the retractions by Thabiso Mono, Pelo Mekgwe where they retracted their allegations of sexual abuse at a public meeting to where they went on 6th January.  So I ask this question - 
"You are aware of reports sent by what was called the Mandela Crisis Committee to the then President of the ANC, Oliver Tambo, where they refer to these retractions?"
 Mrs Madikizela Mandela responded: 
"With deep regret that document is not owned even by the present ex-members of the Crisis Committee, I spoke to the present Minister of Safety and Security, Sidney Mufamadi, I spoke to Aubrey Mokoena who is the Deputy Speaker of the House to try and establish the authenticity of the so-called document from the Crisis Committee.  Both of them had no knowledge of what-so-ever of your fictitious document which is so obviously . . . (indistinct) which is what they used to do and admit it publicly. You have questioned me on a document which was not even drawn by the Crisis Committee even during those apartheid times, you are free to access that information directly from them, they know nothing about that document and Sidney Mufamadi even went so far as to say to me "Did I not recollect that by the time they were supposed to have issued that so-called document the Crisis Committee had already ceased to exist. It had been dissolved".
What is your response to that? 
 Sorry, my colleague has just given you the full transcripts, there is a first Section 29 and a second Section 29, has it been divided for you? The blue page is the division. I was referring to Page 66 of the second section 29 document.

AUBREY MOKOENA: For my part the reference to the document was that of the MDM, that is the one that I was actually referring to that the Crisis Committee had absolved it, and I seem to agree with it. I didn't understand that it was this particular document, so it is quite possible that when I spoke to Mama she had one . . . (indistinct) in mind but then I had another one in mind which was, this was the meeting in Dobsonville. That is the one that I was referring to.
 We don't own it as the Mandela Crisis Committee because we did not engineer that meeting.

MR VALLY: : You do confirm that a document was drafted by the Mandela Crisis Committee and is not a Stratcom document?

FRANK CHIKANE: Well, we do confirm that the document was written by us, if I understood you well when you read the extract from the previous hearing, Mrs Mandela says it was obviously from Stratcom. It would be interesting to hear what is obviously Stratcom about this document but we are saying it was written by us.

MR VALLY: : Let us talk about what Mrs Madikizela-Mandela tells us about the origin of the Mandela Crisis Committee, I refer you to the first Section 29 Inquiry. You see that file we have given you, the blue page in-between divides the two Inquiries. I am now dealing with the first one.
 I want to refer you to Page 89. Have you found the page? Maybe I must just go back as far as 88 to the lead up to that. I asked the question -
"Were you aware of any tension between Mandela United Football Club and other schools in the area or other football...."

CHAIRPERSON: : Excuse me, I am sorry to interrupt you, it does seem to be that there is, or seems to us here, who is collective here that that collective is having a problem because they are just having sight of the transcript and I think that these are critical issues and we don't want to be dealing with this officially, that you be given the opportunity of an overnight scrutiny of this and that we will continue tomorrow.
 I hope that we are going to finish tonight with this particular group but I mean it is . . .

CRISIS COMMITTEE: Chairperson, I think maybe what is intimidating is being given a book to study here, but I think questions can be asked and we can answer the questions, we don't need to study the book itself.

CHAIRPERSON: : I don't want to put you at any disadvantage, don't make your decision precipitately because you don't want to come tomorrow.

CRISIS COMMITTEE: Chairperson, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: : Unfortunately you have come to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission here, look, let's find out, I mean I don't know, Hanif, how do you feel, we are concerned because you see they keep struggling and I just think it isn't fair. This is quite crucial to what we are doing and I, myself would say and my colleagues here would say that unfortunately, I mean, we would have wanted, yes, Minister Sidney,

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: We suggest that we proceed and if we feel that we are really encountering difficulties we will indicate.

CHAIRPERSON: : Then we want to try and conclude this matter this evening. Let us say as we had thought half past six, but I mean we are being too ambitious and say seven o' clock. Well, let us see what happens because you see Dr. Frank Chikane, there is no guarantee that we will finish even if we go on because there are other people there who have an interest in the matter apart from Mr Semenya and I am quite clear in my mind, I do not want us to rush this thing and I am afraid I would not give you permission to stand down, I didn't want to use that particular power but I am trying to be persuasive, do you want us to go on as you are suggesting, let us go on and let us see what happens. Right you are.