Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Can I understand you Mr Arendse.  Are you suggesting that his second statement is not true and the first statement is true because there are differences?  Or are you suggesting that both statements are not true?

NORMAN ARENDSE: I am suggesting that the totality of his evidence is not true.

CHAIRPERSON: .... matter.

NORMAN ARENDSE: It doesn't really matter because he's completely unreliable as a witness.

CHAIRPERSON: That's the end of the matter.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes.  I also want to put it to you Mr Sibaya, lastly, that you've been put up, we don't know who it is - rather let me use another word, let me suggest to you that you have been put up by someone to point out Mr Ntsebeza.

MR SIBAYA: Are you saying somebody sent me, what do you mean, elaborate?  I don't know this man, why would I want to implicate him, and he does not know me either, why would I want to do that?  You could say to me that maybe my brother, my younger brother was driving the car that day, I want to know, explain to me and give me evidence why you say that I am not telling the truth.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Because you see Mr Sibaya apart from the other things which I think I have highlighted to the Committee it was important for you to have been shows the photographs of this car.  You see, just look at me, of this car.

MR SIBAYA: Ja.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Because otherwise a car with the registration number XA, you know you are better than me,  I can't even remember it 124 something, that that would have been entirely meaningless if it hadn't been for the fact that this vehicle was found in NY129.  It wouldn't have meant anything if this vehicle was not found in 129.  That is the connection between the white Audi and this case, it's this car, and the fact that you've never been shown this cars it's mind-boggling.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  I think we'd better - you've been through this already Mr Arendse.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Ja, I...

CHAIRPERSON: Well just carry on otherwise, please.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Mr Chairman I am done.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV ARENDSE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior.

MR PRIOR: Mr Sibaya after you gave your statement in January of '94 and after you were told you weren't going to be called as a witness in the case did you think any more of the statement you had made at the police station?

MR SIBAYA: I just left it all there, I did not continue to think about it.  I went to the police and they dismissed my statement, therefore I was to be involved no longer.  Mr Segal said that they could not find the car.  My evidence was not enough.

MR PRIOR: And then the next thing that happened, if I understand your evidence, is that Mr Lubbe came to see you this year?

MR SIBAYA: Correct.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

MS QUNTA: Mr Chairman if I may ask just one question from the witness in the light of the new evidence that has come out during Mr Arendse's cross-examination relating to the photographs.  I just have one question.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one question.

MS QUNTA: Yes.  You were shown a batch of photographs by Mr Mark Killian, were you not, is that correct?

MR SIBAYA: No, who is Mark Killian?

MS QUNTA: The gentleman across there, can you stand up Mark please?

MR SIBAYA: He never showed me any photographs.

MS QUNTA: My apologies Mr Chairman, the photographs were shown by Mr John Lubbe, but it came out in Mark Killian's report on page 3, the third paragraph.  Were you shown a batch of photographs by Mr John Lubbe?

MR SIBAYA: Yes he showed me, he asked if - he showed me photographs with people and I said that I could not recognise from a picture, I cannot say from a picture, I cannot identify a man from the picture.  I said I wanted to see the man face-to-face.

MS QUNTA: My question is you could not recognise anyone in that batch and you are confirming that?

MR SIBAYA: Not a single person as far as the photographs that he showed me are concerned.

MS QUNTA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS QUNTA

ADV SANDI: Mr Sibaya you were asked to point out any person in this house who could possibly resemble the person you say you saw sitting in the white Audi vehicle that evening, do you remember that?

MR SIBAYA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: And you pointed out two persons.  The first gentleman was Mr Sandi and the next one was Mr Ntsebeza is that correct?

MR SIBAYA: Correct.

ADV SANDI: Before you pointed out the first gentlemen there can you see where you are sitting?

MR SIBAYA: This one is almost behind me.  I can see you directly.  It is a strong face.  I did not look at the one on my right, this is why I came to you.  But when I looked at him properly, especially, I saw a difference in the nose.  Mr Sandi's nose and Mr Ntsebeza's nose are different, but when you first look at them they are very similar, you think it's the same person.

ADV SANDI: You must listen to this question very carefully Mr Sibaya.  Before you pointed out the first gentleman did you see the second gentleman Mr Ntsebeza sitting on the left-hand side of yourself as you are testifying?

MR SIBAYA: No I didn't see him.

ADV SANDI: When did you see Mr Ntsebeza ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker wait for the interpretation please.

MR SIBAYA: As I saw him that night his face looked dark,  I mistook him for Advocate Sandi, but when I looked carefully it doesn't seem like the same person because now he seems lighter.

ADV SANDI: Before you pointed Mr Ntsebeza out, that is the second gentleman, did you see him before in this house?

MR SIBAYA: Where?

ADV SANDI: When did you see Mr Ntsebeza for the first time in this room?

MR SIBAYA: I did not look seriously at people's faces.  I had thought that Dumisa Ntsebeza was actually Advocate Sandi.  My mind was focused on Advocate Sandi.

ADV SANDI: Did you not move straight from the first gentleman, Mr Sandi, straight to Mr Ntsebeza?

MR SIBAYA: No, Advocate Sandi looks so much like Dumisa Ntsebeza.

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker repeat the answer please.

ADV SANDI: My last question to you, maybe you ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker wait for the interpretation.

MR SIBAYA: I started with Advocate Sandi because I had thought that he was Dumisa Ntsebeza.

ADV SANDI: Did you go past any number of people before you got on to Mr Ntsebeza?

MR SIBAYA: I looked at everyone in this room, there is not one single person I did not look at.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Sibaya.

MS QUNTA: Mr Chairman for the record could I just indicate that when I asked that question the batch Mr - my client's photograph was amongst the batch that was shown to the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I don't think you are required now, you are excused.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman just one question arising from that exchange between Advocate Sandi and Mr Sibaya.
	Mr Sibaya it's clear to us now that since you have been sitting here, and you've been sitting here for a long time, you have been looking at Advocate Sandi quite a lot, would that be correct?

MR SIBAYA: Correct, I actually thought he was Dumisa Ntsebeza.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Okay.  Now since the two of them, according to you, have a strong resemblance to each other, did you at any stage point out to Mr Prior or to Mr Killian or to Mr Lubbe or to anyone, that, hey, but this looks like the person that I saw that night?

MR SIBAYA: I was waiting for my moment.  I thought that this is why he was put before me so that I could recognise him.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV ARENDSE

JUDGE WILSON: You said on a few occasions now that you looked at Advocate Sandi and you thought that he was Dumisa Ntsebeza, what do you mean by that?  Did you think that his name was Dumisa Ntsebeza?

MR SIBAYA: No, I don't know their names, they look alike.  Facially they have a very high resemblance.  I was focusing on Advocate Sandi.