Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-26

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I don't want to dispute it, but the second shooting suited me much better than the first.  With the exception of the fact that it had not been a roadblock, there was really nothing to hide.  But I don't want to dispute that.

MR LAMEY: My instructions from Mr Nortje are that at the second occasion there was also a light which was shone when the person climbed out of the vehicle.  Do you recall that?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, Chairperson.  If it is so I cannot recall it, I really cannot.  I will not dispute it.  It would have made sense if we had it at the first instance, but I am speculating now, I don't have an independent recollection thereof.

MR LAMEY: The person who would deliver the persons at the Swaziland border, was he in liaison with the source?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I am not sure what the relationship between Charles Ndaba and the source was, but I accept that it should have been quite good because the information was that - if I can put it like this, there was hundred percent proof.

MR LAMEY: Can you recall whether there was a specific number of MKs that would be in the minibus, or could there have been more than four?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, the amount of 8 to 12 was mentioned the afternoon at the Security Branch offices.  I may be incorrect, but I think that is why the minibus was there, to accommodate that amount of people.

MR LAMEY: I would just like to say that my instructions have been corrected by Mr Nortje.  He says initially he spoke of the information of four MK members, but there may have been information as to more, but ultimately there were only four MK members.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen, do you have any questions you'd
like to ask the witness?

MR JANSEN: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman.  Jansen on behalf of applicant Ras.
	Mr de Kock, the two Piet Retief incidents, am I correct in saying that it did not form part of your trial?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, Chairperson.

MR JANSEN: So the judiciary records and findings about these incidents have relation with the previous death inquest and commissions which were riddled with lies?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, some facts are true and some are not.

MR JANSEN: And the other thing, Lieutenant Mose is deceased, is that correct?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.

MR JANSEN: And he has been deceased for quite some time now, is that correct?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR JANSEN: So it has never been possible to surmise from him why he gave the apparent signal when he climbed out of the vehicle and ran around the front of the vehicle?  Why he gave this signal that there were weapons in the vehicle, during the first incident.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I have a recollection that I did speak to him after the shooting incident and he mentioned that the weapons should have been in the bags.  That is how he perceived it and that is why he took that step.

MR JANSEN: Yes, and one speculates now, but that is exactly the point which I wanted to make to you.  If one has a look at the facts as a whole, one would accept that Lieutenant Mose only went to pick up those people that evening.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes.  I would just like to mention that Mose was also a former member of MK and he was one of the old MK members.  I think somebody once said that he was one of the original MK members.

MR JANSEN: Yes, but he would not have been in the presence of these people long enough to establish as a fact whether they were armed or not?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, I believe that he used his own knowledge and he believed that there would be weapons.  He was one of those who had been caught in the Wankie campaign in Rhodesia, so he knew.

MR JANSEN: And on the probabilities he would have drawn that inference that, by the fact that they had these bags with them?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, and we also told him that we are dealing with trained MK members here.

MR JANSEN: And if one looks at many other similar incidents, the records of the Truth Commission and other investigations, it is so that some of the MK cadres would infiltrate with their weapons and in other instances without their weapons?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.  Many a time the weapons were already stored within the Republic and people would infiltrate without weapons - and I would depend further on Mr Deetlefs and Pienaar, who would have firsthand knowledge about this, and then they would just collect the weapons from where they were stored.

MR JANSEN: Yes, and there are also documented cases - and I think for example of the arrests of MK members and PAC members in the Western Transvaal area, where it could have been expected from someone in your position and in the positions of your members, that you would be fired upon and that such people would draw their weapons on the police.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.  C1's position was that we only dealt with terrorists and one foresaw that you could be fired at at every occasion.

MR JANSEN: Yes, what I would just like to get clear from you, on record, is that it was not unreasonable at all at that stage, from you and more specifically Mr Ras, but you were all in the same position, to expect or to be uncertain whether you would expect fire from the other side?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, we were reasonably certain on every occasion.

MR JANSEN: Now in Mr Ras' application he says that his role in the first incident, his function was to move across the road and take up position to cover the right-hand side of the vehicle.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR JANSEN: And he was solely in that position, there was nobody with him on that side.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, then he would have fallen into the direct line of fire of the line that was covering the left-hand side of the vehicle.

MR JANSEN: Yes, and the position of those who were on the left-hand side of the vehicle and his position right, somewhat to the back, was set up so that you would not be in the line of fire of each other.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, that is quite correct.

MR JANSEN: But because of the fact that it was dark and from his position he could not see from the other side of the vehicle who started firing or what the position was exactly.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, the shots that I fired would be the signal, so he would react the moment I started to fire.

MR JANSEN: Mr Ras also says that the nature of such a situation requires that the person in command's instruction had to be executed with military precision.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR JANSEN: So if you say "cease fire", fire has to be ceased, if you say "open fire", then they have to open fire?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR JANSEN: Mr Ras also says that although a large number of shots were fired and they moved closer to the vehicle, and the woman who fell out of the right-hand side of the vehicle was shot, all these things literally took place during the course of a few seconds.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR JANSEN: And that everything that happened there, in a certain sense took place under commands and in the heat of the moment.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR JANSEN: I think that there is something will be in issue and maybe it is correct that I deal with that right now.  Mr Ras says in his application - I don't know whether you have studied his application?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, I have Chairperson.