Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MR RAMAWELE: (continued)   Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr de Kock, was it the whole of Vlakplaas that went to Durban on this particular mission?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Mr Chairman.

MR RAMAWELE: Why was it the whole of Vlakplaas?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Because that was the instruction from Brig Schoon.

MR RAMAWELE: Did he tell you why was the whole of Vlakplaas supposed to go to Durban?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Because we had to trace these terrorists which killed the policemen.

MR RAMAWELE: So are you telling the hearing that the purpose of your visit to Durban was to trace the people who killed the police officers?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That was to trace the terrorists, to arrest these people.

MR RAMAWELE: After tracing them, you would then arrest them?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Are you saying after arresting them, obviously then they have to appear in court?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Not necessarily Chairperson, to arrest could also mean to kill them and it did not necessarily mean that they would appear in court, as a lot of the askaris, they decided after some time to turn to the police and provided a service to the police.  That was the situation ... (no interpretation)

MR RAMAWELE: How long were you based at Vlakplaas?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: From 1983 Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Until when?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Until 1993 Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Have you ever appeared in court to testify about whatever you have done in respect of the activities at Vlakplaas, I mean at the time when you were still in charge of Vlakplaas?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, I appeared in court at various instances.

MR RAMAWELE: I see.   Now, the sole purpose of going to Durban, was to trace the so-called terrorists who killed police officers?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: You were in charge of the operation?  You were in charge of the operation?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: And no one else?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Mr Chairman, yes, I had other officers, I worked under the control of the Divisional Commander of Port Natal, I am not sure, but I think it was Brig Coetzee.

MR RAMAWELE: Before you went to Durban, were there any weapons issued to the members of Vlakplaas who went to Durban?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, every member had his own weapon, he was responsible for his own weapon, it was a permanent issue.  In certain circumstances, with certain askaris, we take their weapons back when they return and we issue it again when they go out again.

MR RAMAWELE: So most of these weapons were weapons which were actually police weapons, which were in the possession of the members of Vlakplaas?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Those were official issues, yes.

MR RAMAWELE: Is it further correct that you went to Durban also to do an infiltration into the activities of the UDF?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Mr Chairman.

MR RAMAWELE: Are you telling the hearing that you did not go to Durban to infiltrate the comrades or the UDF, you never went there to make any infiltration?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, we came back to trace the terrorists.  If it seemed later that we had to infiltrate an area or organisation, or a specific group, or a specific instance, based on the information on grassroots level, we would have done that.

MR RAMAWELE: But when you left for Durban, your primary aim was actually to trace down the so-called terrorists who killed two police officers?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: The purpose was to trace these people, that was not the primary purpose, it was a purpose.

MR RAMAWELE: What was the primary purpose of going to Durban?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: The objective was to trace terrorists who were responsible for killing the policemen.

MR RAMAWELE: As a result of that then your group went to Durban and you came later on?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Mr Chairman, yes, if I can remember correctly, I can be wrong, but as far as I can recollect, I arrived there the same day, but later that day.

MR RAMAWELE: And you say you were alone?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: In your evidence-in-chief you said that as far as your recollection goes, Mr Nofomela was not with you?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: In other words you are not saying it, you are not very certain that Mr Nofomela was not with you, you are actually saying that as far as you can recollect, he was not with you, he could have been with you?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I am not going to dispute that, but I doubt that, I cannot recollect that whatsoever.  I could just as well have said somebody else was with me, but as far as I can remember, I was all alone.

MR RAMAWELE: And then when you arrived at Durban, you say that some of the members, some of the members had already been deployed at various places?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct, these people had already been deployed.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Ramawele, Mr de Kock, did Mr Nofomela act as a driver for you?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, when I was not the Commanding Officer, he acted as my driver, between 1983 and 1985, before I became Commanding Officer, he and other people were my drivers.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Sorry Mr Ramawele.

MR RAMAWELE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  You say that you agree that this AK47 weapon was actually a weapon that was lawfully obtained from Head Office?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct, yes.

MR RAMAWELE: Is it true that at Vlakplaas, there were various AK47 assault rifles?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: There were various types of weapons amongst others, AK47s.

MR RAMAWELE: You could have taken one of them to go to Durban?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: What I mean is, if you wanted to take one of them, you could have done so?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: If it was a clandestine operation Mr Chairman, I could have taken weapons from Vlakplaas.  This was not a clandestine operation and we  asked for an AK47 from Headquarters.

MR RAMAWELE: Why do you say this was not a clandestine operation?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: This is not an operation where we drive down, shoot people and disappear as happened at various instances, I refer to Botswana, Swaziland, Lesotho, the handgrenades in kwaThema etc.

MR RAMAWELE: So this was an operation where you were looking for the murderous people who had committed an offence and you were just going to trace them and arrest them and come back?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Not necessarily that we would return, there could have been information to follow up.

MR RAMAWELE: Because at that time, the Durban area, they mentioned Chesterville areas, were actually very, very flashpoints at the time?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Mr Chairman, those were areas where there was a struggle between the police and the comrades.

MR RAMAWELE: If you say that although you were looking, you were going to trace the killers of the police officers, you could at the same time have followed some other information, that means if you got some other information, you could also further on infiltrate you know, the comrades?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Mr Chairman, yes, if there was such information or the Security Branch at Durban had such information, and they requested us for this information or if it was beneficial to follow up the information immediately, I think we could have done that.

MR RAMAWELE: And as a Commander of Vlakplaas, you had to be at all times ready to undertake any operation like for instance if you follow up any information, you have to be in a position to do that, you have to be prepared to do that?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, yes, as long as you were able to do it.