Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1997-06-12

ADV TEE: Mr Chair, the judgement of the Magistrate seems to indicate that the evidence of Mr Skosana had been that two people had thrown grenades.  One of them being Solly, the other one Conrad.  So I asked him did he testify in the Nkuna trial that Solly had thrown one and Conrad had thrown the other and he said yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Where is that, because my recollection of the record or the portion that I see was that it read, that may not necessarily be so, but the portion I have reads,
"The attack was made on the base that Solly would have thrown the hand grenades."
I am reading from page 12.  That may, of the judgement, I am, paginated page 12 of the judgement.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Line.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Line, about line 11, 12, 13.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, line 13.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Page 12.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Line 13

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: 12.  It may very well be that further on the judgement is going to read differently, but the portion that I have, I have just read it to you, seems to tally with what he is saying now.  That is why I was asking you where, why do you say that what he is saying is different.  Maybe I did not read far enough.  If you could show me a portion which would read the way you say it does.

ADV TEE: Mr Chair, I cannot recall exactly where I read it, but at the bottom of page 12, the typed page 11.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes.

ADV TEE: It says,
"Accused number one and Solly were between the houses."

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What line, sorry, what line?

ADV TEE: The very last line of that page.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, what line, whereabouts?

ADV TEE: 30, line 31.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes.

ADV TEE: "That accused number one and Solly were between
		 the two houses on the left-hand side.  Solly moved around the corner and moved to the front of the house.  He then threw the first hand grenade which exploded on the outside.  He once again moved around and threw the second hand grenade."

ADV TEE: Now, at some other stage I got the impression that the Magistrate was saying that the two that had moved forward were Solly and Conrad and that, in fact, each one had thrown, but now the significance of my question is this, Mr Chair.  When I asked him did he testify like that in court, he has just confirmed now that he did and then he said that the reason why he did is because now, today he tells the truth, but in court he did not.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, that what he says now will mean nothing if, in fact, in the court he did not testify so.  What is the meaning of, what is the significance of him confirming something which is not true.  He will be incorrect.

ADV TEE: Mr Chair, what I am going to have to do is to leave that for argument, because I simply remember that there was a dichotomy that had been created as to the throwing of the grenades.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: My recollection is that it was created by your clients not by him.  The version that the one hand grenade was thrown by one person and another one by Solly, my recollection is that that was said by one of your clients.

ADV TEE: That is quite true. That is certainly said by Conrad, because he was there.  His version differs on the facts as to what happened and how the grenades were there.  Conrad's version tends to be in accordance with what the police found, that one had exploded in the bedroom and one out.  If I cannot find it, it is not going to be a material point.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think leave it out.  I do not think that you are correct in putting it that way to the witness.

ADV TEE: As the Committee pleases.  Mr Skosana, in paragraph 43 is it not true that you were transported to Swalala not by Joe Nkuna, but by a person called Adam Myanga in his own car?

DERICK SKOSANA: The person who, the person who organised us transport was Adam Myanga, that is true.  Joe organised the transport and he was with us.

ADV TEE: Is that your answer?

DERICK SKOSANA: Sorry.

ADV TEE: I am not sure what your answer is.  Who actually drove the car?

DERICK SKOSANA: The car belonged to Adam Myanga.

ADV TEE: Yes, now is it not true that Adam Myanga drove you to Swalala?

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes, Adam drove his car, but the person who organised the transport was Joe and the place where we were going Joe organised that place as well and he knew the place.

ADV TEE: Alright, but are you saying then that Joe did not go with you that day, it was just Adam?

DERICK SKOSANA: Joe was there as well together with Adam.

ADV TEE: Yes, well you know that Joe has denied that he was with you travelling to Swalala.

DERICK SKOSANA: How would we have known his sister's place if he was not there?

ADV TEE: Now in paragraph 44 you say,
"The following weekend Joe came to take his sister to attend a certain funeral."
Are you not aware that at the time his sister was at Unigaza writing exams.  In other words she was not there to be taken anywhere.

DERICK SKOSANA: That is not true, that is lies.

ADV TEE: Alright, Joe Nkuna instructs me that, in fact, there was no funeral that he had to attend at that time.  What is your comment?

DERICK SKOSANA: Like I have said they attended a funeral on that weekend and I am sure and certain of that.

ADV TEE: Mr Chair and Committee, thank you.  I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADVOCATE TEE

ADV DE JAGER: The attack was round about two o' clock at night?

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes, I can between two and one.

ADV DE JAGER: Was there electric lights near the house?

DERICK SKOSANA: Sorry.  Before the attack there was no electricity, there was an electricity breakdown.

ADV DE JAGER: So it was very dark?

DERICK SKOSANA: It was very dark.

ADV DE JAGER: And you found Joe at a nearby house after the attack?

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes, where we left him.

ADV DE JAGER: How far, approximately, was that from, from the, where you were standing?

DERICK SKOSANA: Maybe about ten to 15 metres. I am not exactly sure of the distance, but I can estimate.  It is about ten metres or ten to 15 metres.

ADV DE JAGER: But it was across the road?

DERICK SKOSANA: Sorry.

ADV DE JAGER: There is some, could you kindly attend, I think he cannot hear.

DERICK SKOSANA: Would you please repeat your question.

ADV DE JAGER: You told us it was, he was on the other side of the road.

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes, there is a main road and he was on the other side of the main road.

ADV DE JAGER: And was he directly opposite the house of, where you executed the attack?

DERICK SKOSANA: It was not directly opposite.  He was looking at the house from an angle.

ADV DE JAGER: So you say and could you see him standing there?

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes, even though it was dark there was a moon and you could see someone from a distance even though it was dark.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you not concentrating on the windows and the house you were about to attack?

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes, I was, but also I was on the lookout for everything, anything and I could see what was happening on the road as well as the house.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The, you say that you left Joe Nkuna at a certain house or he was at a house, he remained at a house where you had left him.  That is what you said.

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes, as I have explained, I said when we were taking a shortcut to the house where we were going to attack we left Joe somewhere nearby.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why did you leave him there?

DERICK SKOSANA: We were the ones who were supposed conduct this operation.  We were the ones who were armed.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: By we you mean who and who?

DERICK SKOSANA: Myself, Solly and Conrad.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And Joe was not supposed to attack the house?

DERICK SKOSANA: We only had two guns, AK47 and hand grenades.