Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-09

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, where do we go from here, which matters arise for us to hear today?

MS THABETE: Madame Chair, can I have a three minute adjournment, I'm just trying to sort that one out?

CHAIRPERSON: We'll grant you a five minute adjournment with a view of making an early start.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba, yesterday you intimated that we will commence today with the application of Mr Garane.  Are we in a position to do so?

MR MOHLABA: Certainly Chair, however I have been advised during the adjournment that there may be problems as Mr Garane is unable to identify the victims.  He is however ready to proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it that you and Ms Thabete discussed the difficulties that we raised with Mr Garane's application.  Are you in a position to address us in relation to the difficulties we identified for you in respect of the offence for which amnesty is being sought?

MR MOHLABA: Certainly Chair, the applicant is applying for amnesty in respect of killing of a person believed to be a member of the Toaster Gang and this person was shot at and he died.  He also applied for amnesty for the attempted murder of another person who is believed to be a member of the Toaster Gang as well and he is also applying amnesty for unlawful possession of a firearm and unlawful possession of ammunition.

MR LAX: Now but just to recap, one member of the Toaster Gang killed in a shooting, is that right?

MR MOHLABA: That is correct.

MR LAX: And one assuming injured in a shooting?

MS THABETE: The applicant is not aware of any injuries which was sustained but there was shooting and the firearm was also aimed at him, he does not know whether he sustained any injuries from the firearm which was discharged towards his direction.

MR LAX: Okay so it's just a straight forward attempted murder.  Thank you.

MR MOHLABA: And Madame Chair the intention of the applicant in firing at those people was to kill them.  The exact location where this incident took place is in the vicinity of the shopping complex next to a four way stop which is found at the entrance as one enters Sangweni Section in Tembisa.  This incident took place at approximately 19H00, applicant is not aware of or he does not recall the early date nor does he recall the exact month, he however mentioned that it was on or about September 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: In his application form he has said it could be between September or October.  Has he now had an occasion to reflect better to put this incident to be around September?

MR MOHLABA: Certainly not, I tried to find out from him whether he could remember whether it was winter or summer so he said to me it was after September and that could be summer.

CHAIRPERSON: I think this is sufficient, I think it was in
relation to the other incident that we would have wanted that kind of information.  If he says that the incident occurred even in September or October I think it makes it easier for the incident to be identifiable.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba, without traversing the evidence that you will be leading shortly after these preliminary matters have been sorted out, are you in a position to assist us by establishing from Mr Garane how he came to know that the person he shot at subsequently died?

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair.  Mr Garane was in the company of another person who identified these people and this person subsequently died, they were together and the other person who died was also involved in the shooting incident.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm referring to the person who died and in respect of whom he now seeks amnesty.  Are you referring ...[intervention].

MR MOHLABA: I'm not referring to Garane's victim.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MOHLABA: Garane's comrade who was with him at the time of this incident who subsequently passed away in another incident unrelated to this one.  He is the person who identified these people and that happened after some shots were fired and the community dispersed in front of that shopping area and Garane and this other deceased person moved forward and identified those people.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr Garane's version of events that he also at that stage noticed that one of the persons that shot at had died as a result of a shooting?

MR MOHLABA: Certainly that will be Mr Garane's evidence.  This person died and the firearm was removed from him, next to his body or which was subsequently handed to the police by Mr Garane.

CHAIRPERSON: And his name has never been established by Mr Garane or his deceased colleague?

MR MOHLABA: That is correct, his name was never established.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the reason why we seek this information is to ensure that we balance the interest of the applicant with those of the victims.  We are compelled by the Act to notify victims of such public hearings where amnesty is being applied for by the applicants.  In this particular incident, such notification has not been capable of being served because the victims are unknown and the information we seek from your client is to try and make sure that when we do a public notice we are able to do a public notice that will capture the area as close as possible as to where the incident occurred with a view of ensuring that the relatives of the victims concerned are able to get notice of the intended hearing.  That is why we needed some specifics with regard to the information already supplied to us by Mr Garane because he had not mentioned the shopping complex as well as the fact that the incident happened next to the entrance to Sangweni Section.  He just mentioned Tembisa and Tembisa is quite a big place and if we had gone ahead to publish a notice with a view of advising victims who could be involved in this matter, that is one of the people that they attempted to kill and the relatives of the deceased, there would be no reasonable chance of that notice reaching or coming to the attention of the relatives of the deceased, no, the victim to the offence of attempted murder.
	Ms Thabete, are we in a position to cause a public notice to be issued in view of the fact that we are unable to serve a notice to any particular person?  Now that we have information with regard to the exact location in Tembisa where this incident is alleged to have taken place and if so, how soon can we do that?

MS THABETE: Madame Chair first of all I think we are now in a position to make an advertisement.  I can't say the exact date when the advertisement will be made because I would need to consult with Mr Vuyani Grene who is in our media department but I would like to also request that maybe my learned colleague Mr Mohlaba in the meantime he provides us with a supplementary affidavit stating the exact place and everything for our records.  More especially given the fact that we had written a letter on the 19th January requesting further particulars so as to avoid such a situation from occurring so I can't say for sure when it would be published but as soon as it is published we'll set down the matter and will notify the people concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, which letter are you referring to that you would like Mr Mohlaba to respond to now?

MS THABETE: The matter of Mr Garane.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, which letter are you referring to?

MS THABETE: I'm referring to the letter written to him on the 19th January 1999.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Garane, I have a copy of a letter alleged to have been written to you on the 19th January 1999 and it is alleged to have been sent to you by fax on that day - Mr Mohlaba, sorry - in terms of which you were requested to provide certain information before this hearing could be capable of proceeding.  Are you aware of received such a letter?