Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-12-08

MR LAX: Now previously it was suggested that when Mr O'Farrell was attacked, he fired his gun, is that true?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: No.

MR LAX: So you're saying O'Farrell never fired his gun at all, at any stage?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, I'm saying so.

MR LAX: Did you actually go to the Transkei and meet with Mr Holomisa, as well as Mr Hani?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: No, I didn't go to Transkei.

MR LAX: Why was it necessary for you to shoot and kill both these men, or to try at least to kill O'Farrell and to kill van der Spuy?  I mean both of them were unarmed, according to your evidence.  At the time you had van der Spuy's gun.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Would you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Why you wanted to shoot O'Farrell and Mr van der Spuy, because according to your evidence you shot at them when they were not armed.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: It was my intention to kill them, both of them, because they were police and they were harassing MK in that area.  And for me to teach them a lesson, I wanted to kill them so that the boers won't come back to us and harass us.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you perhaps give us the names of other MK members who were harassed by the police?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, I can.  Sipho Ngumane.

ADV BOSMAN: Any other?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Baba Khosa and Mtjai.  I've forgotten his last name.

ADV BOSMAN: Until when did this harassment take place, until more-or-less what time?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: You mean after we came from exile or before?

ADV BOSMAN: After you came ...(intervention)

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: When should I start?

CHAIRPERSON: Obviously you wouldn't have been ...(indistinct - Chairperson and applicant on same channel).  There would be no point in you telling us about your harassment before you left the country.  You are relating about what happened and what led to the killing of these policemen, that should really be clear in your mind.  Don't waste time, we are hard-pressed for time.

ADV BOSMAN: It's after you came back from exile.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: After van der Spuy was killed in that area the harassment was lessened, it was no longer an everyday threat until 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sambo, the question is, how long were you harassed before Mr van der Spuy was killed?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Quite a long time, I wouldn't know.  In that week alone they had been there five times.  Before the incident they had been in my place five times.  On the day of the incident they had come to my place two times.

CHAIRPERSON: ... on that day?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, on that same day in the morning they came, the battalion came and quite a number of them, quite a number of soldiers.  I think there were over 90. These were the people who came in the morning and they searched my house and then later these two came.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Sambo, just listen carefully, I'll try and put it slowly.  At more-or-less the time of the incident, were you in contact with Sipho and Baba and Mtjai?  Were they also in the area?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, we were in contact.

ADV BOSMAN: Round about the time of the incident, were they harassed by the police?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, they were.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you tell us in what way they were harassed?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, I can.

ADV BOSMAN: Well just tell us please.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: They used to harass Sipho a lot during the night and day, as they were doing to me.  Eventually they planted two AKs in his yard and he was arrested and the case was finalised in a court near Mvelo(?).  I've forgotten the precise name of the area.

ADV BOSMAN: This is what I wanted to know, do you have similar information in regard to Baba Khosa and Mtjai?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, I do.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you just tell us please.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, they used to come to his house during the night and also during the day and they used to raid his house and sometimes they will use a helicopter.  Even in my house they used to do the same.

ADV BOSMAN: Was this in 1992, more-or-less, or earlier?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: As from 1990 until after 1992.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, Ms Bosman asked a question whilst you were also busy putting questions to Mr Sambo, you may proceed.

MR LAX: Thanks, Chair.  If you'll just bear with me a second, Chair, I'm just checking something here.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sambo, Mr Lax is still checking his notes to see if there is any outstanding issue he would like to raise with you.  While he is doing that, I'm going to allow Ms Bosman to put a question to you.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Sambo, you have told us that in that time, prior to the incident, other MKs were being harassed by the police.  Did you discuss this with your superiors?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, I did.

ADV BOSMAN: Were you given any instructions in regard to this?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, I was.

ADV BOSMAN: What were the instructions and by whom were they given?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: We planned that we were going to ambush the boers, we were going to shoot and kill them in order to neutralise the situation.

ADV BOSMAN: But who gave you this instruction?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Mr Matthews Phosa knows about this, he's one of the people who used to sit and discuss this, and Teddy Kulman(?).

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thanks, Chairperson.
	These people, O'Farrell and van der Spuy, you'd never seen them before that day, is that correct?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Would you please repeat that for me?

CHAIRPERSON: These policemen, O'Farrell and van der Spuy, you never saw them before.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: I wouldn't say no or yes, since police used to come to my place in numbers and sometimes at night, therefore it wasn't easy for me to recognise them.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, you didn't know them, you were seeing them for the first time on that day?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes.

MR LAX: You've said that many other people came to your house and you know the names of some of those people who've come to your house in the past, on a regular basis, correct?  Policemen, soldiers.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, I do.

MR LAX: And you hadn't seen these people before.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes.

MR LAX: Now - if you'll just bear with me, Chair, I'm just trying to put the question in a fair and appropriate way.
	You've said that these people called your name, do you remember that?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, I do remember.

MR LAX: When did they call your name?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: As I was sitting in that 626 before I went to them, I heard them talking about a "voice" and I'm the only Voice there at home.  I don't know whether they were referring to a "voice" as in a voice, a sound, but that's why I thought they were referring to me because my name is Voice.

MR LAX: But they were speaking in Afrikaans to each other, not so?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: I don't know whether you're referring to when I was still inside the 626, or you're referring to the time when I approached van der Spuy.

MR LAX: Well did they speak Afrikaans or did they speak English? - either to each other or to you.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Afrikaans.

MR LAX: Well how could they be talking about "voice", which is an English word, if they were speaking Afrikaans?

CHAIRPERSON: Unless or course they are referring to a name.  If the name is Voice, whether you speak English, Afrikaans or Shangaan or any other name, it will come out as "Voice".

MR LAX: It's just that O'Farrell says they didn't know your name.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: It is not true.

MR LAX: Well they didn't call you, they were talking about you.  That's your evidence.  They were talking to each other, mentioning the word "voice", not so?  They didn't call you "Hey, Voice", correct?