Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: July's brother, his name was Kleinboy Mtsweni.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, carry on.

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: We went passed my home.  We went to look for Makuduza because we didn't know at the time where he was staying, he had left (indistinct) and we were told that he was now in Tafelkop.
	We arrived at Makuduza's place in Tafelkop.  When we entered the gate, Kleinboy said it was written how he was operating and he read and he told us that it was written that people needed to make appointments since the consultation times were there.  Therefore we decided that we can go back because we had the information as to when we can see him.
	We left, when we arrived at home, I dropped Kleinboy and I also dropped Mbaveli.  It was already late.   I didn't waste any time, I went straight home.  
	Later we agreed on a date as to when we can go to see Makuduza again.  After we agreed on the date, I didn't show up on the first date which we agreed on.  I didn't go.    I heard that they went, but they didn't go on the time of the consultation, the one we got on the wall.  They also came back and it was decided that we were supposed to set on another date to go back to Makuduza's place.
	When the second date was set, I was present.  On the day which we agreed to go, I arrived after the meeting which was held in a school, I joined them.  We proceeded to the deceased's home, to fetch the deceased, so that we go to Makuduza's place.  When we arrived at the deceased's home, it was asked as to where the deceased was and her children told us that she wasn't around, she had run away, she went to her brother's place.

MR RICHARD: She went to her brother's place, may I stop you there and ask you this question.  On what date was this meeting at the school, can you remember?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: No, I do not remember, because it happened a long time, I don't remember the date.

MR RICHARD: Was it on the same day or some time before the deceased was killed?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: It was on the same day when she was killed.

MR RICHARD: Now at page 26 of the bundle, which is an annexure to your amnesty application, you make the comment -		"... the family proceedings is where (indistinct) took place by this certain uninvited group, called the comrades."
	Please tell us what you meant by that phrase.

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes, I do agree because this was a family issue, and comrades got involved.

MR RICHARD: Who involved the comrades?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: I wouldn't be able to clarify that, but the people who were our leaders, I will say they were the ones who involved comrades.

MR RICHARD: Who were these leaders, what were their names?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: If I do remember well it was Skosh and Scwadi.

MR RICHARD: Now, what were they leaders of, were they chiefs of the tribe or leaders of a political organisation?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: They were political leaders.

MR RICHARD: Which party did they belong to and which politics did they support?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: The ANC.

MR RICHARD: Your paragraph continues and the end phrase of paragraph 1 reads
"... then they intervened us where controversials took place."
	What are the controversials that you are talking about?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: When they got involved, it became clear that this whole matter was now in the hands of the comrades, no longer in the family hands.

MR RICHARD: At paragraph 2, you say
"... indication about intervened group, they told me to land them to a place of their choice."
	Now, to a place of their choice, which place are you referring to?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: I do not understand your question.

MR RICHARD: Your paragraph reads
"... indication about intervened group, they told me to land them to a place of their choice and I took them for further investigation."
	Now, the intervened group I understand, are the comrades and then you refer to a place of their choice.  I simply want to know where was that place?  What was that place?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: They wanted to go to the place where this woman had fled to.

MR RICHARD: Yes, right, and then you carry on
"... we were still on meeting when the situation started to be uncontrollable."
	Where was that meeting that you refer to in that sentence?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: It was in the junior chief's kraal.  The situation changed, some people felt that they needed to get involved.

MR RICHARD: Now, on the day of Emma Mtsweni's death, where were you that morning?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: In the morning I was at home, in my home.

MR RICHARD: Did you attend any meetings that day?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: No, I didn't attend any meeting.  I went there later, it was in the afternoon.  It was when it was about to finish.

MR RICHARD: What was happening then?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: When I arrived, the comrades were leaving the school to go to the deceased's home.  I joined them and I was driving my bakkie.  We went to the deceased's home.

MR RICHARD: What did you find there?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: In the deceased's home, we found her children.  We asked them as to where their mother was and they told us she had fled, she went to her brother's place.  We left.
	We  boarded both bakkies, July's bakkie and my bakkie, together with the comrades, we went to Waterval.  We filled in the petrol and I realised that my tyres were not balanced.  I was busy pumping the tyres and I had already told July that I needed petrol in my car, July filled in my car with petrol.  I didn't enquire from him how much he had spent.  I could tell that he had filled in by R20-00 because I was used to that car and the gage.  When we arrived at Vaalbank ...

MR RICHARD: Before you get to Vaalbank, did you see July buy petrol other than for the cars?  Did you see him buy petrol in a container?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: No, I didn't see him.

MR RICHARD: On the way to Vaalbank, what did you think would happen to Emma Mtsweni if you found her there?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Yes, I could tell because of the comrades' emotions, I could tell that something bad might happen to Emma.

MR RICHARD: What had made the comrades build up the emotions that you could see?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: Comrades suspected that Emma was a witch and that is why they were angry.

MR RICHARD: Now, when you left Waterval, where did you go next?  Carry on with the story.