Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-28

MR SEMENYA: No, your statement.   At paragraph 14 you say upon President Mandela's release from prison for Mrs Mandela the time had come to settle old scores.  She telephoned me one evening after I had presided at a press conference at which Mr Mandela was present, and warned me to stay away from Mandela.
 Now, is this evidence of yours at attempt also to settle what you called here old scores?

AZHAR CACHALIA: No, it is not an attempt to settle old scores.  You know, Mr Semenya, and I am going to say this now, we were part of making a decision in 1989, as I pointed out it was a difficult decision.
 That decision has lived with me for nine years, for eight years, it was extraordinary then and even today as I give evidence, I am deeply conflicted about it.  It is difficult.  So, for me to give evidence and not to talk about some of the very real things that happened around that, would be something which is festering inside me.
 It is not a matter which I did not take up, I in fact tried at that point, even through the structures of the ANC, to have had this matter dealt with responsibly.  It wasn't dealt with, it wasn't dealt with at all.
 So now I have to talk about it.

MR SEMENYA: No, what I am saying is obviously when the phone was dropped on your ear, as you say you got offended by this.

AZHAR CACHALIA: That is to put it mildly, yes.

MR SEMENYA: And you made sure today you will say so.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: That is the point I am making.  Chairperson, I have finished with my questions on Mr Cachalia.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we should then do the round with Mr Cachalia, shouldn't we?

MR VALLY: My feeling is I think Mr Semenya should question Mr Morobe first, before the other people.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR SEMENYA: Mr Morobe, my information is this and I think you have said as much yourself during the course of your evidence, that you have had a relationship with Mrs Mandela as it were and you would have considered a child, so to speak.  Would that be a fair assessment of your evidence?

MURPHY MOROBE: A child when?

MR SEMENYA: Sorry?

MURPHY MOROBE: You said I considered myself a child in relation to Mrs Mandela.

MR SEMENYA: I am trying to say you had developed a relationship of a parent/child, that is all I am saying, is that a fair inference I can draw from your evidence?

MURPHY MOROBE: It is a reasonable inference.

MR SEMENYA: In fact, according to my information, in 1976 you together with Seitsi, were held up I think in the American Embassy?  Yourself and Mr Cachalia rather?

MURPHY MOROBE: In the American Consulate.

MR SEMENYA: I beg your pardon, American Consulate, yes.

MURPHY MOROBE: In 1976?

MR SEMENYA: Whatever the date, were you and Mr Cachalia were held up in an American Consulate?

MURPHY MOROBE: We were not held up in a consulate, and Mr Cachalia was not there.  It was myself, Valli Moosa and Vusi Khanyile.

MR SEMENYA: Yes.  And are you able to tell us who facilitated your exit from there to a safe place?

MURPHY MOROBE: Exit from where?

MR SEMENYA: From the consulate?

MURPHY MOROBE: To where, to a safe place?

MR SEMENYA: You can tell us, where did you go from the consulate Mr Morobe?

MURPHY MOROBE: I went home.

MR SEMENYA: Had you go to the consulate seeking asylum there?

MURPHY MOROBE: After our escape from prison, we found our way to the American consulate and sought refuge.

MR SEMENYA: And from there you just went home?

MURPHY MOROBE: From there we went home.  We were in the consulate from September, 13th 1988 until we were subsequently let off after about 37 days.  We spent about 37 days there.

MR SEMENYA: The point I am trying to make is are you excluding that Mrs Mandela had something to do to facilitate your going home?

MURPHY MOROBE: That she had something to do with facilitating our going home?  I am not aware of it.

MR SEMENYA: You are not aware?  Am I correct though that after your release from prison, you went and visited her in Brandfort?

MURPHY MOROBE: Yes, I did.

MR SEMENYA: And that was in the nature of your relationship to relate that way, I believe?

MURPHY MOROBE: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Now, all of these questions really are merely intended to establish that it would seem to us that you had a relationship with Mrs Mandela that was very cordial?  Is that a fair statement to make?

MURPHY MOROBE: I suppose you have to put the times relating to the cordiality of that relationship.

MR SEMENYA: That is now pre the statement calling for democratic formations to distance themselves from her?

MURPHY MOROBE: Yes, I think pre that statement I was a leader in the United Democratic Front and the mass democratic movement.  And Mrs Mandela was one of the people that we all know, she was a significant figure in our movement and I think we had a great deal of respect for her.
 There were times where in the height of our struggle, lots of things began to happen like I outlined in the statement.  And my relationship then, I think at that point, in the early days there was a really mentoring situation between myself and Mrs Mandela, when I was still at high school.
 But I think that the level of political relationship developed over time, and I think in the 1980's in particular, it tended to be very strongly political and there was less of the personal relationship between us, there was more of a political relationship.
 And even where one had to go to Brandfort for example to pay a visit, it was a recognition of the fact that this was someone who has been removed from the situation and we had to continue to pledge our solidarity with them, and I think that is how we had our respect for Mrs Mandela.
 And right up to the time of the statement, but remember at the time of the statement, we have had state of emergencies that had been declared, we have had detentions, we have had arrests, we have had a significant amount of dislocation that happened.

MR SEMENYA: What I am trying to establish is there was nothing to bar you from raising the concerns you would have had, to her directly, is that correct?

MURPHY MOROBE: Well, on any other matter, but in relation to the matters under interrogation at the moment, there were structural ways in which these things were handled, our future was part of, so I didn't necessarily have to deal with Mrs Mandela directly.

MR SEMENYA: No, I accept that structurally you were not obliged, I am saying given your relationship, there was nothing to stop you from doing it if you elected to?

MURPHY MOROBE: No, no, there wasn't.

MR SEMENYA: I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard?  Will you just identify yourself for the benefit of the witness please?

MR RICHARD: I will,  Mr Morobe, Mr Cachalia, my name is Toni Richard, through the TRC, I have been instructed to represent Mr Jerry Richardson.
 Mr Richardson, is represented in both these proceedings and in his amnesty application, and it is also correct that you know that my client in his applications for amnesty, has confessed to human rights violations of the most horrific nature, such as the Stompie killing, which he is serving a life sentence for, and for other killings such as the Sono and Shabalala killings, for which he has never been prosecuted and if he had not revealed and confessed, the mystery still would have prevailed.
 I think I am going to ask Mr Morobe this question first.  You have heard what our colleague Mr Cachalia has said, do you associate yourself with what he has said in his submission?