Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: I don't believe that it would have created a problem, he could have refused to sign this thing.

MR LAMEY: But that document was signed on the 9th of December 1996, not so?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: That's correct, yes.

MR LAMEY: That's a day before the first cut-off date if I'm not wrong, for the handing in of amnesty applications.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: I don't know whether that's true, it can be.

MR LAMEY: Can you remember whether there was a great deal of haste and pressure to assist these people in having their amnesty applications reach the TRC in time?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: There was pressure yes, to have it all completed before the cut-off date.

MR LAMEY: Is it possible that due to that pressure and the fact that he was told: "do not be concerned this can be corrected later", I'm now referring also to his Attorney General statement but these things have to go in to the TRC and that circumstances could have contributed to the fact that there wasn't a chance to correct this?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: I cannot reply to that.  I do not know whether the thought in that way, I was not there when he did it.

MR LAMEY: Can you recall whether you were phoned from his house on that day?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: No, I cannot think that it happened.

MR LAMEY: Or by any of the black members that were there?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: No, I cannot recall.

MR LAMEY: Mr de Lange, do you know where Mr Piet Mogoai's statement which was also taken on the 26th of April, where that was done?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: It was done at his house in Sheshanguwe.

MR LAMEY: I just want to refer you to that, I want to show you the document because according to the document it was done in Pretoria, Mr Mogoai's statement.
	I think this is an exhibit Mr Chairman.  I've just discovered that we might have now two Exhibits P, I think we should perhaps just refer this as P1 and the bundle of photographs as P2.   I think, I see now that Mr Mogoai's statement has been marked Exhibit P. 
	I'll show it to you Mr de Lange.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: I've got a copy with me.

MR LAMEY: Have you got it?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Mr de Lange, can you see there that this statement says that it was made in Pretoria?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Yes, I see that.

MR LAMEY: And it's also signed by Ellis, in front of Ellis?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: That's correct.

MR LAMEY: Is Pretoria an incorrect reference?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: On the face value of it, yes.  I would say that Pretoria and Sheshanguwe are two places.

MR LAMEY: Mr de Lange, I want to refer you back to the statement taken by, that you took of Mr Koole.  Among others he pointed out that his force number was taken down incorrectly in that statement.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Can you just assist me to find where it appears?

MR LAMEY: Paragraph 1 of Mr Koole's statement.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: It's the force number that he gave to me and it was signed as such.

MR LAMEY: Is it possible that you could have made a mistake with the noting down of that force number?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: If that was so Mr Koole had the opportunity to correct it when he read through the statement.

MR LAMEY: I want to say or tell you that his force number, if you'd just give me a moment, I've been instructed that this is correct as it is included in his supplementary amnesty application ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He has no problems with that, he's just saying that: "Well, what stands there on page 1 is what I got from him".  He doesn't dispute the fact that it could be a wrong number and that there is, the correct number can be found somewhere in the papers.

MR LAMEY: So you cannot dispute that?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: I can't dispute it.

MR LAMEY: So you cannot dispute that.  So this mistake just crept in, either Mr Koole made the mistake or it was noted down incorrectly

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: One of the two is possible, yes.

MR LAMEY: I want to show you further on page 6, paragraph 6 - I'm sorry, page 2, paragraph 6 of his statement.  The date of the pointing out to Captain de Jongh is 22 March '96.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: It should most probably have been the 22nd of April.

MR LAMEY: So this statement also has a fault in that regard?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: That's correct.

MR LAMEY: You see Mr Booyens has already pointed out to you what Mr Koole said regarding the references made to Niewoudt and the assaults etc., I'm not going to ask you any further about that.
	I want to refer to one aspect and that is that in paragraph 14 on page 4 of his statement he also referred to the fact that the electric light - to the electric light, and there was no electric light on the stoep.  What the evidence was, heard before the Committee and what was said by all the other applicants is that candles were lit.  It was an old disused police station, there were no electric lights.  
	Now I want to ask you, Mr Koole would surely not have spoken of an electric light under these circumstances, I want to ask you whether it's possible that you interpreted this - gave the interpretation of an electric light in his statement.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: I noted, wrote down what he told me, I wouldn't have sucked the fact that there was an electric light there out of my thumb.

MR LAMEY: You testified that this consultation with him took about an hour when you took down this statement, is that correct?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: It took longer than an hour according to my diary.

MR LAMEY: How long did it take, can you just have a look?

ADV DE JAGER: Three and a half hours, from 9 o'clock to 12H30.

MR LAMEY: Three and a half hours?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: That's correct, yes.

MR LAMEY: And I just want to point out to you further that in paragraph 16 referring in the context to the first night of arrival at the place where the people were detained, meat was braaied and drinks were enjoyed.  Is that correct?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: According to paragraph 16, yes.

MR LAMEY: During this consultation and these discussions, did you ask him any questions for clarification purposes?
	If he said for example that they arrived there late that night, 11 to 12 o'clock that evening and he told you that they still braaied meat that evening and had drinks, didn't you ask him as to whether his memory was correct?  If it could not be possible that this could have happened on another evening as they had arrived there so late?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: No, I did not put such questions to him at all.

MR LAMEY: Because as it stands in the contents of the statement it is the evidence of everyone before the Committee including Mr Koole that it is common cause that there was no braaivleis not any drinks on the first evening but it was on the second evening, but this is not so in the statement.

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Once again I want to say that I wrote down in the statement what Mr Koole told me.  If it didn't happen on this first night I cannot be held responsible for that.

MR LAMEY: The additions regarding the pointings out and the dates thereof, did you did you that or was it Mr Koole's verbatim rendition?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: Please repeat, I did not hear properly.

MR LAMEY: The inputs in the statement regarding the dates on which pointings out took place, did you add this in after the consultation?

CORNELIUS PETRUS DE LANGE: I did it during the consultation.  While I was writing down his notes, I added these dates.