Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, I am willing.

CHAIRPERSON: And would you participate in such an exercise should such a meeting be arranged?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, I will participate.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be with a view of making friends?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, I would be doing that because I want us to live together and create peace.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, I was told that you made applications for two counts of escaping from custody.  Mr Mashabane, what is the position about those?

MR MASHABANE: Indeed Mr Chairperson.  The applicant still persists in making the application for escaping.  In view of the fact that he views the escape as an act which is incidental to his imprisonment.
	He feels that he was imprisoned for acts or offences which he committed, whilst he was in his own understanding ...

CHAIRPERSON: Before you explain that, there are two counts.  We don't know what the dates were, because if it occurred after the 10th of May 1994, then we can't even entertain it.

MR MASHABANE: The one Mr Chairman, thank you for directing me on that point, the one Mr Chair, the applicant is applying for, is the one which took place in January 1993 and the other one which took place after the cut off date line, it follows that ...

CHAIRPERSON: I am told he escaped during a relevant period for these purposes, in January 1993, you escaped from custody, correct?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you escape?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Mr Chairman, my escape from jail for the second time, when I was arrested, I had the Investigating Officer, Captain Steyn telling me that he had some information that I played a role in the robbing of Kliprivier police station.
	When I escaped from jail, I knew that as I was not given the bail and he told me that he would come and book me out of Boksburg prison, I knew that on that particular day when he was about to book me out, I was to confess that I was involved in the Kliprivier incident, the disarming at the police station.
	I have to confess even with my Commander.

CHAIRPERSON: When did that escape take place?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: It took place in 1994, December if I am not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, you can only apply for amnesty for incidents that occurred on or before the 10th of May 1994.  If you committed a crime for whatever reason after that, I am not empowered to consider any application for amnesty.  Do you understand.?
	Now you say the second one took place in December 1994, which is after the 10th of May 1994.  Tell me about the one that occurred in January 1993.

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: What took place in January 1993, I was arrested, I was in prison without bail and the Captain who was in charge - all these cases reappeared.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, then what happened, what did the Captain say, you say?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Captain told me that I was not going to get bail because he wanted to make sure that I am in a tight situation and that same Captain had relations with the people that I regarded as my enemies, that is Bishop Khumalo of the IFP.
	To me it became apparent that if I stay in jail, waiting to appear in connection with those cases, and even in the townships in December, the comrades were attacked, and during my imprisonment ten comrades in my Section, had died.
	I realised that if I had to appear in court on the 10th of January,that was not going to help.  I had to run, I had to escape and go and help the community because the people were dying in Tokoza.
	I escaped on the 12th of January 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the Captain's name?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Captain Thomas Steyn.

MR SIBANYONI: Just one question Mr Chairperson, after escaping, where did you go?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: After escaping I went back to Tokoza, where I used to stay.

MR SIBANYONI: And served as an SDU member?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Is that it Mr Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, that is the roll.  I don't want to have to have the last say, but there is a request from the victims, that I must just thank you and the Honourable Committee members for the way the victims have testified here and the manner in which they have been dealt with.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I am going to end this hearing and I promised yesterday that I would be able to give decisions tomorrow morning.
	It seems I was informed, that if I do so, it would be contrary to the law and therefore I cannot give it tomorrow morning.  I am terribly sorry if I had misled anybody, thinking that they would get decisions tomorrow.
	However, they will be informed within - at the latest one month from here, when all the legal procedures have been complied with and the decisions printed in the Government Gazette before it can be made public.
	I want to also appeal to applicants who are involved in Self Defence Unit matters, it seems to be a trait and we waste time, and I am particularly worried about people who are still in prison, and we have to adjourn every so now and then, in order to give Attorneys and others the chance to consult, merely because they were unable to see their clients prior to the hearing.
	I want to appeal to the public and to those future applicants, to see your Attorney long beforehand.  It is unfair for us to waste time while your comrades are sitting in jail still.
	Everything can go smoother if you had taken the trouble to see your Attorney or Advocate long before the hearing starts, so that everybody knows where they stand and preparations can be made properly.
	We have all witnessed a number of serious problems in these applications.  None of which can be laid at the door step of the applicants themselves.  It is time that we came to realise that there are people's lives and rights at stake.
	Let us do that job properly.  It starts by the applicant himself, seeing to it that he gets to his legal representative in time, not on the day of the hearing, but long before then so that if there is any preparations to be made, it can be done before the hearing starts and nobody is embarrassed.
	I hope what I have said is taken in good spirit and in the spirit it was intended to be taken.  
	I thank the public for the interest they have shown in these hearings and the applicants for respecting the process.  I also wish to thank the interpreters and technicians who do work that is not very often acknowledged.  Without them, these proceedings would not be able to proceed.
	I thank you.  I adjourn this hearing.
HEARING ADJOURNS