Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-03

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Motlokwa, during December 1993 you were a member of the African National Congress, is that not correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I joined the African National Congress in 1985 until now.

MR MAPOMA: And when you had problems with the ANC Youth League you must have realised that to be a political problem, is that not so?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: A political problem which needed a political solution, is that not correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now, did you take up the matter with the ANC at political level, the matter of your problems with the ANC Youth League as youth wing of your political organisation, the ANC?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I said yesterday that we wrote a letter to the civic trying to solve the problems that existed between ourselves and the Youth League.

MR MAPOMA: I take it that you used to attend the meetings of the ANC as a political organisation, as member of the political organisation, the ANC, is that not correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, there were no meetings, we were busy at all time because Katlehong was fighting.

MR MAPOMA: Okay.  But now, did you as a member of the ANC take the matter up with the ANC, the mother body of the ANC Youth League and you being a member of the ANC as an organisation?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sir, I have said that we took a step.  We wrote a letter to the civic organisation asking to meet with them to get a solution to the problem we had with the Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Mapoma wishes to establish from you is that, did you take the matter up with the ANC structures?  One, the ANC Youth League were members of the ANC, you were also a member of the ANC but what you did you wrote a letter to the civic, is that right?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, did you take the matter up with the African National Congress?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: How?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The central SDU met with the ANC Katlehong branch, they were discussing the issue of Moleleki.  Now the delegation was sent by the Shell House by the name of Mr Africa, to come and investigate this matter.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, but I take it that that happened after the incident of the killing of the deceased persons.  I'm asking about your relationship with the ANC before the incident.  When you had problems with the ANC Youth League before the incident itself happened, did you ever raise the matter with the ANC as an organisation of which you were a member?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sir, I told you already that the civic solved the problems because within the SDU, the SDU had members from different political organisations, PAC and ANC.  Now the civic managed to solve the problems we had.

MR MAPOMA: Otherwise you did not raise the matter with the ANC, you yourself?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We did not discuss this with the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand the position, the membership in the SDU was open to all political organisations but the IFP, is that right?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.  IFP, National Party, Democratic Party were not included.

CHAIRPERSON: And the civic comprised of the various political parties but the Democratic Party, the Nationalist Party and the IFP?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: A civic is a community organisation, it doesn't matter whether you belong to the IFP or National Party, it belongs to the community.

CHAIRPERSON: And this was the body that was responsible for the whole of Katlehong?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And it was also responsible for the SDU's?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was only proper that if there is any problem with the ANC Youth League the matter should be raised at the civic level?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Now, during 1993 you were 30 years old, if I count the years correctly, is it not so?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And you were eligible to be a member of the ANC Youth League if you so chose, is that not correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And generally the youth who are the member of the ANC Youth League joined the - who are the members of the ANC joined the ANC Youth League as youth?  Do I understand that correctly?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sir, I don't understand you, can you repeat your question?

MR MAPOMA: Okay, let me repeat my question.  Generally the youth who are the members of the ANC normal joined the ANC Youth League if they so chose.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.  You would have the ANC Youth League cut and the ANC cut as the mother body.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.  Now, why did you not join the ANC Youth League?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I was committed, I was involved in the block committee in the civic and I was a shop steward at work, I could not afford to have my hands full.

MR MAPOMA: Now lets come to the formation of the SDU's.  Yesterday you correctly quoted the submission made by the ANC to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission about the formation of the SDU's.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct, I remember.

MR MAPOMA: Is it not correct that the ANC, when it suggested the formation of the SDU's, had a position that the self-defence units must have a political discipline?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That was so Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Now, the ANC as an organisation which piloted the formation of the SDU surely must have had a political guidance to the SDU's, is that not correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That was so Sir, that was the case but because of certain reasons we did not have a code of conduct the situation forced us.  I've already told you that the members of the MK taught us how to handle guns.  That is why most of the time the Kangaroo Court was in operation.

MR MAPOMA: So, are actions like Kangaroo Court actions which were not sanctioned by the ANC?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The ANC never sanctioned the Kangaroo Courts, the people themselves formed the Kangaroo Courts.  It was not the ANC policy to have Kangaroo Courts.

MR MAPOMA: Now were Kangaroo Courts conducted by the self-defence units?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, unfortunately all sides took part, the civic, the Youth League, the SDU.  I cannot specifically say who was running the Kangaroo Court or who came with the idea of a Kangaroo Court.

MR MAPOMA: Right.  Now, in your actions you were not reporting to the ANC as SDU's, is that correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Which act Sir?

MR MAPOMA: The actions like shooting people.  I understand at some instances in the process of defence unit you had to shoot when a need was and such actions were not reported to the ANC, is that what I understand?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, we were the SDU for Moleleki section.  We were supposed to report to the zonal, the zonal will forward that to the central, it was not our task.  We operated according to structures, we would not just jump one structure and go to the ANC branch.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.  Now, let's go to the day when Blanko was attacked.  In your evidence you said you identified a number of youths who were members of the ANC Youth League and some other adults who were not members of the ANC Youth League attacking Blanko's place, is that not correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And then an instruction came that: "Go attack the attackers of Blanko".

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: After they have killed Blanko, yes.

MR MAPOMA: Now, when you captured those whom you captured, was there any person amongst those whom you captured who was not a member of the ANC Youth League and who was present when Blanko was attacked?