Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla our rules of procedure dictate that anybody using any document will, in advance, make enough copies and furnish all other interested parties with a copy of that particular document and you've been springing on us one document after the other since Monday and you didn't make copies of us and you are going to be the only one who is reading that document and putting questions to the witness.  Whether you'll be reading that correctly or accidently (indistinct) out of context, nobody knows.  We are all at your mercy and I think this is really undesirable.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman, under the circumstances perhaps I will reserve this to a later stage and when I have enough copies I'll ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well there may not be a later stage, I think just go on let's see what happens.  There's not going to be a later stage, we must finish this case today if not before one o'clock.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you sir.  I've got an article here it says, I'm just quoting somewhere in the middle:  "This latest wave of killings has horrified the community.  Earlier this year the community was similarly shocked when six youths, members of the Soweto Student Congress were shot near Shawella after they had been kidnapped.  Four of them died".

CHAIRPERSON: Give us the details, the date?

MR TLOUBATLA: That is 24 November 1986.

MR MALAN: And which paper are you quoting?

MR TLOUBATLA: The Sowetan.  Mr Morris I'm referring to the highlighted portion of the newspaper, can you see that?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It will be Exhibit G.  Do you have any explanation why anybody would refer to your group as members of the Soweto Student Congress or something like that?

SIMON MORRIS: I have no idea about that because what the journalists are writing, they are writing about something which maybe they get it from somewhere because I have no knowledge of one time when I met a journalist and talked to a journalist.  Whether he calls us SOSCO members or what, I don't know where he gets it from.

MR TLOUBATLA: Did you, after this incident, did you subsequently perhaps make any enquiries as to who Jeff Lingani is?

SIMON MORRIS: No sir because after the incident I think I suffered a loss, I could not write the very same year.  I went to school the following year, I failed because I could not recover correctly so whoever this Jefferson was or what he did I did not even care about that because I don't know why we were shot, why some of us died.

MR TLOUBATLA: I'm going to refer you to yet another press cutting, it is the Star date is the 26th of October '86 ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Should this be returned first?

MR TLOUBATLA: Ja, I'm just - listen to me and I'm going to ask you a question about this.  It says:  "On Monday night Mr Thabo Lingani ...", sorry.  Just one moment Mr Chair ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Haven't you got any spectacles Mr Tloubatla?

MR TLOUBATLA: I read better without my spectacles sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Then why do you put them on at all?

MR TLOUBATLA: I can see a hazy view of you when I don't have them but the reading I ... (intervention)

MR MALAN: Perhaps a better view?

MR TLOUBATLA: Alright let me just, because the article is long I'm not going to read all about it, I'm going to just give you the background to it.  Basically Mr Thabo Lingani - they're talking about Mr Thabo Lingani, Mr Thabo Lingani is the father of Mr Jeff Lingani, they were staying in Moletsani in Soweto so he was kidnapped and he was killed, that was subsequent to the incident in which you were involved so it's basically about that, about Jeff Lingani's father, right.

CHAIRPERSON: If you can't read it, can't you ask your assistant to read it otherwise bring it here, let's read it to the witness because you are trying to summarise it and it may not be an accurate summary of what stands there.

MR TLOUBATLA: I can read perfectly sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then read it to the witness and didn't you mark the portion which is supposed to be important to you or highlight it?

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you sir.  "It all started eight weeks ago in Orlando West in Soweto when six young school boys were abducted and driven during the night to an open veld in Shawella Township where they were shot and then set alight.  Four of the youngsters died and Mr Lingani's other son, Jefferson, was immediately linked to the abductions and shootings.  Reprisal were swift, the following night Jefferson's house and another next to it were fire bombed, causing extensive damage.  Later a bus was driven into the ruins to complete the effect.  Jefferson was arrested to answer a number of allegations including murder.  He was granted bail but has since disappeared and speculation is that he has left the country.  A warrant for his arrest is held.  His house was near the homes of the youngsters who had been abducted and shot.  It is in this neighbourhood where a well known former Soweto Student, Mr (indistinct) was also lived".  In Mr Lingani's killing, revenge was the most likely motive.  His abductors were looking for Jefferson and not finding him decided on a member of his family.  "And over the past months ..." that is a quotation, "... over the past months we received telephone calls threatening us to expect anything".  I'm referring to this article in particular, as you can see immediately after this incident, there were very serious reprisals, revenge killings.  Mr Morris do you know who avenged the death of your friends, you know your injuries and who are those people who went out to go and kill Jeff Lingani to avenge what you went through?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Tloubatla now if I understand it correctly it was an inference that the journalist drew there, I don't think it's fair to put it to the witness that it was in fact a revenge killing unless I misunderstood the reading because I did not have it before me.

MR TLOUBATLA: Well Madam Bosman it's true that some of them are inferences, but we are basically working on inferences.  I mean it is my basic understanding that the witness will either deny any knowledge of that but some of these things are basically based on rumours, on inferences and all that and it is my understanding that the killing of Mr Lingani it was a direct sequel after the incident in which they were involved.

ADV BOSMAN: I think it would be fair to put it to the witness that it was a direct sequel and ask him whether it was a reprisal and whether he knows about it.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Maam, I'll do so.  Right, in October, just about two months thereafter, Mr Lingani's father was killed the way it is described in the newspaper.  It is obviously as inference that it was a reprisal killing, in fact even the newspapers are putting it that way.  Do you have any knowledge as to who could possibly have avenged what you went through?

SIMON MORRIS: With respect sir I have no knowledge of what you are talking about because if you mentioned the bus and the burning of the (indistinct), I was discharged at Baragwanath on the ninth of August 1986 and from there, because of I could not go on writing because at Baragwanath I was taken to St Johns where my eyes were tested and the one doctor prescribed me that I should learn to read braille because I was not going to cope up with the exams so the decision was then to consult my father and mother.  From there on ... (intervention)

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you I think that is sufficient but ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla can I have the date of that newspaper?