Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-26

MRS NGWENYA: Actually if I heard my wife well, what she said, at that time he was more concerned about the ANC and the Red Cross investigating the ANC and he wanted to protect his movement and pleaded with us that we should withdraw our request that the ANC and his detention should be investigated.  The Red Cross were their enemy, that is what he said.  And he would prefer this matter handled within, it was domestic, there was nothing to fear.  And that is the biggest mistake of my life I ever made to listen to him.  The biggest mistake.  Because these people were lying and dishonest.

MS MKHIZE: Also just to clarify what you said for the Commission.  There is a time where you said the SACC was not in a position to assist you to fly out and see him. Can you just clarify the Commission about the discussion that transpired between you and the SACC secretary-general at that time?

MR NGWENYA: Well, I went over. It was a very pressing matter and my passport had expired. I asked for a temporary
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passport, and then I went to Rev Chikane.  He told me unfortunately they no longer assist with air tickets.  That was discontinued, could I not raise money. So I paid for my air ticket and because I could not afford more,  I left my wife behind.

MS MKHIZE: You also described a certain place which you call the Green House, since you were talking to people, even informally.  Can you just explain, tell us how the people saw the Green House?

MR NGWENYA: Well, as far as the cadres were concerned, it was a notorious place and nobody from home was allowed to get near.  I was given direction very secretly.  These young people were intimidated and I would dare not reveal names here, but as a man who was known by, well-known by the community of Duga, and many of our sons and daughters were in Lusaka then, I was given secretly direction where this place was where he was detained.  That is the Green House.  And it was a great surprise for Mr Zuma, Jacob Zuma and company that I had found out this place.  But it didn't help me, because even then I could not see my son. It is far out of Lusaka, it was very expensive to get there by taxi.  But I got there three times.

MS MKHIZE: Also there is something which you referred to, which is a three-month period between his detention and his death. Have you - I mean, I suppose you have spoken to his wife. Surely he would have disclosed as to what exactly had happened to him while he was in detention, although he was weak, the wife should be able to give as much details as possible, which will help the Commission to understand what had gone wrong then.

MRS NGWENYA: The wife was not at Lusaka, she was in
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Mozambique. But there are people who were there in Lusaka, that he revealed everything to, about what happened to him when he was in detention.  But people so fear, that when we approach him to find out whether they could come with us in this Commission, they feared for their positions.  They are holdin ghigh positions and they know a lot. There are many things which are not mentioned here, even about the treatment he got and what happened to him when he was in that jail. But we can't, because we have no proof, because people are not prepared to give evidence.  But as we mentioned in our presentation, Dr Makajimi is the one who received him when he was from jail.

MS MKHIZE: I have noted that, but can you just give the Commission even the hearsay, what people say what happened to him. You know, the description or explanation or whatever experiences that he shared with them, without referring to people's names.  Was he tortured, how, what happened, whatever had been done to him.

MRS NGWENYA: He was starved, is what happened to him mostly. In fact, those who knew him could not recognise him when he came out of jail.  His feet were swollen. He was just another man. He actually mentioned to them that he was fed on bread and water.

MR NGWENYA: Even there we got to know that the soldiers, the soldiers of Umkhonto weSizwe would not assault him, they wouldn't torture him, they refused to.  And someone imported a special torturer from Botswana, who was administering the assaults and torturing him, a man unknown to him, who didn't know who he was handling, that he was handling such a great man.

MS MKHIZE: Before I hand over to the Chairperson, Yasmin
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Sooka, can I just ask you whether you did have your own doctor to do a post-mortem before you buried him?

MRS NGWENYA: Unfortunately no.

MR NGWENYA: We were not even informed about the autopsy and I wonder if any inquest was conducted.  We have not heard that report. We would have made representation.

MRS NGWENYA: But we have seen the post-mortem that was conducted in a hospital in Lusaka. We have seen it, and when it comes to push we will present it, which will prove that he was poisoned, poison was found in his blood.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you very much Mr and Mrs Ngwenya. I will hand you over to the Chairperson, Yasmin Sooka.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Glenda?

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Mrs Mgwenya, you refer to the several questions you have, and you are referring to the Stewart Commission. On page 13 you say that the poison was found and you mentioned the name of the poison. Could you just repeat that name again, please.

MR NGWENYA: I suppose it is the question of pronunciation, but it is D-I-A-Z-O-N-O-N.  I don't know, Diazonon, is it?

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Okay. You also mention some of the names of the other doctors that were with Dr Mgijimi.  You mentioned Dr Prem. Do you know what his surname is?

MR NGWENYA: Naicker.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: And any of the other orderlies who were attending to your son, do you know any of them, and do you know what kind of training they had received at all?

MRS NGWENYA: No, we don't know the training.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Thank you.

MR LEWIN: Could I ask just one question, going back to the International Red Cross. I would just like to clarify the
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ICRC were not permitted into the Green House. Is that the case?

MR NGWENYA: You are using abbreviated international names.

MR LEWIN: Sorry, the Red Cross.

MR NGWENYA: Actually, even before they took action they had accepted to take over the case, because I reported the case in Johannesburg. It was reported to the headquarters of the International Red Cross, in Pretoria.  They were taking up the matter, and within that period we got to Lusaka, and our son pleaded with us, that please withdraw, you are embarrassing our movement.

MR LEWIN: So they would still have some records?

MR NGWENYA: Yes.

MR LEWIN: Do you know the name of - or would that have been 1989?

MR NGWENYA: Yes, 1989.

MR LEWIN: Fine, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngewenya, I just want to ask you a few questions. You say in 1989 you heard that he was in detention.  Who informed you that he was in detention?

MR NGWENYA: His wife.  She was actually appealing that I go there and intervene.

CHAIRPERSON: So yuo actually, before you left for Lusaka, you reported the matter to the International Red Cross.

MR NGWENYA: Well, the first time, the first time I reported it, yes, definitely.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it your impression, it seems that the first time round, the SACC was able to assist you.

MR NGWENYA: Yes, correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to clarify from what you have said, that it was a policy decision not to pay for the
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tickets, which led to them not assisting you the second time round. Is that correct?

MR NGWENYA: Actually everybody was pulling back the second time, because even Dr Beyers Naude, we appealed to him to assist us in this matter, and during a DRC Conference in Lusaka, he went to them and investigated this matter, but I suppose when he came back he told us that he could no more.