Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-17

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, was the machine recording since we have started?

ADV STEENKAMP: Apparently not sir, there was no recording.  Mr Chairman, there is a request from the technician, that the applicant, if he can just open his microphone again or just switch it on and say a few words, and see if that can be sorted out quickly.

MR NHLAPO: ...(no English interpretation)

ADV STEENKAMP: Apparently it has been sorted out Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will have to go through everything again.

ADV STEENKAMP: It unfortunately seems like it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nhlapo, I am extremely sorry about the position but it seems that the recordings or the machine to record, was not switched on.  We will have to do everything again.	I am going to adjourn until this thing is sorted out.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nhlapo, we will have to redo everything we had done, sorry about that.  I understand you prefer to use the Zulu language when testifying?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, that is correct.

MR NHLAPO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct that you make application for amnesty in respect of murder, malicious injury to property and attempted murder?

MR NHLAPO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And is it further correct that in 1993, you became a member of the Self Defence Unit in Radebe Section, Katlehong?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Under the command of ...(indistinct) Hlutwa?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, it was that Hlutwa.

CHAIRPERSON: And lastly I understand that you were a member of the ANC at that time?

MR NHLAPO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you proceed?

MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Nhlapo, the acts that you have applied for, occurred in which year?

MR NHLAPO: In 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Would you remember the specific dates?

MR NHLAPO: No, I wouldn't remember the specific date, but I do remember the year, it was in 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Right.  Tell us about the incidents that you have applied for.

MR NHLAPO: The incident in which I am applying for amnesty, is the one where I shot Mr Nqobo and he died.  The reason which led us to do this, there was a meeting on that day in our Section.  Section Commanders and the community met to discuss about IFP members, those who were residing int he townships, IFP members who were residing within the townships.
	A decision was taken there that I should go and look for Mr Nqobo at his place and if I do get hold of him, I was supposed to tel him to come to the meeting because he was needed in that meeting.  The Commander gave me this instruction to go and look for Mr Nqobo.

MR SIBEKO: Mr Hlutwa?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Right, proceed.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just get clarity, were you supposed to bring him to this particular meeting?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, I was supposed to go and bring him to the very meeting.
	When I arrived at his place, he wasn't there, he was still at work.  I found his sons, they were in the kitchen.  They said he wasn't back from work.  I left, I went back to the Commanders to report.
	When I told the Commanders, immediately after I told them, I saw them at the playing grounds, he was coming from work, and therefore I ran back to the meeting, I told the Commanders that I had seen him and he was going to his place, he is coming from work.  My Commander said I was supposed to go and see Elijah so that he gives me a certain weapon or stick and go and fetch Mr Nqobo.
	I went to Elijah and he gave me a stick.  He gave me a gun which had four rounds and then I went.  Simon accompanied me.  We went straight to Mr Nqobo's house, we knocked, they opened the door for us.  Simon told them that we were there to fetch Mr Nqobo because he was wanted in the meeting.
	Mr Nqobo came and he said he was unable to come to that meeting.  We told him that we were instructed that we shouldn't come back alone, we were supposed to bring him back and he insisted that he was unable to come with us to the meeting.  Therefore we left.
	When we left, we knew that in the meeting we were told that people who were IFP members, were supposed to come to the meeting so that they are told that they should leave the township.  If they didn't want to do so, they were supposed to be killed.
	Therefore the moment when we left Mr Nqobo's house, I remembered that we were told that if they refused, we were supposed to kill them, therefore I took the gun from Simon.  It was an AK47 which had a spear in front.    
	All the people who were in the house, they were out of the house by that time.  When I grabbed that firearm, Mr Nqobo went back to the house and his son, Reginald.  Reginald locked the door.  When he knocked the door, I tried to open the door with the handle, but it was knocked.
	I told them that I was about to shoot the door.  There was no response.  I told them for the second time that I was going to shoot at the door, but there was no response.  I fired.
	When I fired for the first time, the firearm was an automatic firearm and it fired three rounds and one round was left.  I touched the handle and I tried to open the door, but I couldn't.  I fired again with the fourth round.  I heard a scream from the house, someone was screaming in the house.  I thought to myself that I had managed to hit Mr Nqobo.
	I went back, I took cover, I went back, I gave the firearm back to Elijah.   When I was still sitting there, in my base, the place where I used to base, I heard that there were a lot of people there.   I heard that Mr Nqobo's son was taken to hospital, he was hit in the leg.  It is not Mr Nqobo, he was hit on the foot, it was not Mr Nqobo who was hit.
	I did not feel good about that because I was not sent there to hit Mr Nqobo's family, I was told that if I experienced some resistance from Mr Nqobo, I should hit him.  I went to Sipho because Mr Nqobo is still around.
	Sipho was one of the SDU members who had a firearm.  I went to him, I took his firearm, it was an AK47 rifle.  I did not check as to how many bullets were in the firearm.  I took a short cut that led me straight to Mr Nqobo's house.  When I appeared there, I saw him handling the burglar door, he was smoking.
	He saw me, when he tried to disappear, I fired on his foot and he fell.  He tried to get into the bedroom, he fell and he fell.  His head went inside the bedroom, but the whole body was outside the bedroom.
	I fired continuously until all the bullets were finished.  I went back to Sipho to give him the firearm.    Yes, he died.

MR SIBEKO: Now Mr Nhlapo, at the time you fired towards the door and you heard somebody screaming, you thought it was Mr Nqobo himself, is that correct?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, I thought that it was Mr Nqobo who was screaming.

MR SIBEKO: Only to discover later that his son was the one who was hit?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, after some time I learnt that the person who was shot, was Reginald.

MR SIBEKO: In your application form, on page 199, paragraph 9(b), it is stated that the victim was killed and his son injured by mistake.  Will I be correct to understand the mistake part of this evidence, to be only applicable to the son and not to the victim, not to Mr Nqobo?

MR NHLAPO: Yes.  In my application form, I intended to state that I killed Mr Nqobo and his son was hit by mistake.

MR SIBEKO: But at the time you fired your shots towards the door, there were according to what you saw, what you observed, there were only two people because the rest went out of the house, because the rest went out of the house?
	There were only two people, that is Mr Nqobo and his son, is that correct?

MR NHLAPO: Yes.  The only people who were left in the house were two, those were the people who went back to the house, the others had left the house.  The two of them went back to the house.

MR SIBEKO: And as a result of your knowledge ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, don't you think this part of the application should be withdrawn, unless you have got other ideas?