Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-06

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: When we entered the township, we were with them.  They were in front, riding in casspirs.

MR LOWIES: When you were in the hostel, did you have to make any contributions towards the purchasing of firearms and weapons?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not contribute anything because I was unemployed.

MR LOWIES: Did you ever have a fall-out with Mr Victor Keswa?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not remember.

MR LOWIES: Did you ever have trouble with Mr Hunter Ndlovu?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not remember.

MR LOWIES: I would like you to turn to page 18 of Exhibit R please.  This Exhibit, after it was taken from you, was it read back to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No one ever read anything to me, they just took statements and left.

MR LOWIES: So you were never shown the statement and asked whether you agreed with the contents of the declaration and whether you understand the contents of the statement?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not remember.

MR LOWIES: If you don't remember, can you remember whether it was read back to you, or do you know for a fact that it was not?

MS TANZER: Chair, in fairness to this applicant, as he says, he is illiterate, he's got no education, to ask him whether this was read back to him, he is not going to be able to identify that.  He needs to know the contents to understand whether it has been read back to him or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you just let him answer the question if you can.

MR LOWIES: Would you answer please?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: What I started to say that I don't remember anybody reading it back to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember when you were in Groenpunt Prison in Vereeniging?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I do remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember when someone came to take a statement from you in December last year when your legal representative was also present?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I is possible that I remember because my legal representative came to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember that occasion or don't you remember that occasion?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember very well.

MR LOWIES: Now, according to you you never had an ANC background, you were never a member of the ANC?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is true, I was never a member of the ANC.

MR LOWIES: Do you know an incident shortly before that Boipatong massacre, where a lady was necklaced for having had contact with kwaMadala hostel members?  Her name is Nomvula.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I remember the name.

MR LOWIES: Did you know her?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot say that I knew her, but I do remember the name.  I knew the person but I cannot say that I was close to her or I knew her well.

MR LOWIES: Do you know about her murder?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: She was alleged to have been killed by people of Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: On the 18th, the day just after the Boipatong attack, what did you do?  Maybe I should start off with the following.  Did you go to sleep that night of the 17th at the hostel itself?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I returned to the hostel and that is where I slept.

MR LOWIES: Did you attend any meeting there or did you go straight to bed after the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We went back to the stadium after the attack and we had to leave our weapons at the stadium, and we also received ntelezi to cleanse ourselves.

MR LOWIES: Yes, and then you went to sleep?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.  I went to my room to sleep.

MR LOWIES: The next morning, what happened?  What time did you wake up?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall the time.  I cannot recall the time at which I woke up on the 18th.

MR LOWIES: And then, what did you do?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I went to take a shower and then I went back to my room.

MR LOWIES: Did you stay in the room for the rest of the day?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did go out of my room and walked around the hostel.

MR LOWIES: Did you ever leave the premises of the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember.

MR LOWIES: The next day, were you still at the hostel, that is now the 19th?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LOWIES: Did anything significant happen on that day, pertaining to the attack at Boipatong?  I am talking about the 19th?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, something did happen.

MR LOWIES: Yes, what happened?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: If I am not mistaken, I saw a large number of Police around the hostel.

MR LOWIES: Was that the first time you saw them, or did you already see them on the 18th, that is now the day after Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: If I am not mistaken, I cannot be certain if they had already been there from the 18th, but I saw them on the 19th.

MR LOWIES: Did they at any stage search the hostel in your presence?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember if they did, but at some point they did get into the hostel and searched the rooms after the Boipatong massacre.

MR LOWIES: Was Themba Khosa there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot tell a lie, I do not know.  I last saw Themba Khosa on the 18th when he came to collect the weapons.  There were many Police around the hostel, some were in their private vehicles.

MR LOWIES: The Police that were around the hostel - sorry let me rephrase - you say there were Police around the hostel, do you mean they were there when Themba Khosa came to collect the firearms or are you now referring back to the 19th again?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I only saw Themba Khosa for the last time on the 18th when he came to fetch the firearms, and I saw the Police on the 19th outside the hostel.

MR LOWIES: So you never saw Themba Khosa in the presence or in the company of any Police?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't want to tell a lie, I did not see him.  There were many Police there.

MR LOWIES: You did not see Themba Khosa talking to the people whilst the Police were present on the premises after Boipatong, it doesn't matter whether it is the first, second or third day?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not recall.  I know that the Police came to search the hostel at night.

MR LOWIES: Did you do anything specifically on the 18th at the hostel premises pertaining to Boipatong, anything of note?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: You did ask me sir as to what I did on the 18th, I told you that I woke up and went to take a shower and went back to my room.  I also walked around on the hostel premises.

MR LOWIES: That's all?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Are you sure?  And on the 19th you didn't do anything specific either?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not recall sir, I did indicate that to you.

MR LOWIES: You see if you were on the premises, surely you would have known about exhibits that were burnt, exhibits that were taken from Boipatong, loot?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct, the loot was burnt.  They said the stolen goods from Boipatong should be put on fire because that would be used as evidence, so to cover up, these things had to be burnt.

MR LOWIES: Why didn't you mention it?  Were you not part of that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is the induna's who ordered that these things should be burnt, I handed over what I had so that they could be burnt, so I did not personally participate in the actual burning.

MR LOWIES: Who did you hand your items to?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I gave them to Darkie Chonco.

MR LOWIES: What did you give to Darkie Chonco?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: (No translation)

MR LOWIES: It was not translated, I didn't - a TV and a video?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, don't swallow your last words.  What was the last thing you said, was it that you don't remember?  The others?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I gave him a video as well as a TV set, those are the things.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.