Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-16

ADV PRIOR: If my learned friend looks at page 452 on the right hand side, the diagram of the skull, there is reference to fracture lines, arrows.  But in any event, I am not going to proceed with that, you indicated that the blow was of sufficient force to render her unconscious?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes sir.

ADV PRIOR: And it was just the one blow that you administered?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: A single blow sir.

ADV PRIOR: And was she standing up when you administered that blow?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes, correct sir.

ADV PRIOR: And obviously she didn't know that you were going to strike her at the time that you administered that blow?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: You then placed her in the grave, is that right?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes sir.

ADV PRIOR: And well, did you lay her down?  In what position did you place her before you shot her?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, she was virtually lying down in the grave, but in a slightly seated up position.

ADV PRIOR: I am coming to that, and you know why, you have seen the diagram of the bullet wound.

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct.

ADV PRIOR: She was shot from the top of her head with the exit coming out at the roof of her mouth?  That has been shown to you?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Would you agree with that being the position?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes sir.

ADV PRIOR: And after you shot her, you then stripped the body, is that correct?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Correct sir.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

MR NOLTE: No questions Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NOLTE

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, two matters which I have neglected to put very briefly with your, it is not really re-examination, but if you will allow me just to put them very briefly.
	The firearms you used in these incidents, in each occasion, were firearms of which the possession was not lawful in the hands of whoever the policemen was that used them?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is so sir.

MR VISSER: And when you entered the Allan Taylor residence on the campus of the University of Natal, was that a legal entry or an illegal entry?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: It was illegally done, sir.

MR VISSER: Illegally.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Why, what was illegal about it?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, the entry to the premises was illegally gained.

CHAIRPERSON: You were going to get some explosives that you thought might be used for acts of terrorism?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman, but we didn't want anybody else to see us gathering or collecting, making a collection of these weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: What was illegal about it though, I can understand that you didn't have time to get a search warrant, so you proceeded to go and search, how was it illegal?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I am not too sure about that point Mr Chairman, we made entry into I suppose the storeroom without permission of anybody.

MR MALAN: Do you need the permission of the owner when you want to seize illegal weapons?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No sir.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I apologise, may I just raise the matter of Pindele Mfeti, I didn't, I forgot to ask that question, but possibly through the Committee may I just ask around that.
	It is of importance to the victims, he was a relative of Nxiweni's family, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: How long will you be do you think Mr Prior?

ADV PRIOR: It is virtually one question, possibly two Mr Chairman.  Mr Wasserman if you may be able to assist, and I pitch this question at the level of helping the victims, come to terms with what happened to their loved ones.
	You have obviously followed the questioning of Mr Botha closely, and we know that one Pindele Mfeti who was also a student, he was a fairly elderly student, he was bout 40, he had a child in matric at the time, he was studying I believe law, and he was the cousin of Pumeso Nxiweni.  He disappeared on the 25th of April 1987.
	The family are concerned that possibly in their endeavours to find Nxiweni, shortly after the acquittal in the Ramlakan case, that possibly Mfeti was mistaken for Nxiweni, and he was abducted and dealt with.  Are you able in any way, to give up any information that may assist the families?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I don't even know that name.  I have never even heard that name.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

MR VISSER: Thank you, yes, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

ADV SIGODI: You say that after you shot Portia Ndwandwe as well as Pumeso Nxiweni, you covered the body with lime.  Where did you get this lime?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: It would have been bought at one or so, hardware store.  I can't recall where it was bought Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: When was it bought?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, no, I don't know why was it bought.

ADV SIGODI: Why was it bought?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: It would have been purchased to cover the body, to stop an odour coming through the soil.

ADV SIGODI: But from your evidence it seems that the lime was already there when you shot and killed these people?  Did you have lime stocked in that safe house for these kinds of actions?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, I was given the lime Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Why by?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I was given the lime Mr Chairman, by Mr Taylor.

ADV SIGODI: When did he get this lime?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I don't know when he got the lime Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: So in other words, you don't know where this lime came from?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I don't know when he got it or where he got it from Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: Another thing which I want to clarify in my mind, is how many people in the Durban Security Branch belonged to the, I will call it the inner circle, the few people who were responsible for these killings as far as you know?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, as far as I know, it would only be the applicants that are before the Committee.

ADV SIGODI: Why were you particularly chosen for this type of work, what is it that you had done, were you given any training for killing or what by the Security Branch?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, no, I am as military trained as anybody else and I was just in the Umkhonto weSizwe section.

ADV SIGODI: The reason I am asking you is because you say that you were not in the country when Mr Nxiweni was arrested.

LAURIE WASSERMAN: On that occasion I was debriefing informers in Swaziland Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: But why would you be the one to be chosen to kill him, to be given the orders that you must kill him?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: I have no idea on how to even answer that Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Before my colleague asks questions, did Mr Taylor give you this lime when he told you to eliminate, did he say well, take them outside, eliminate them and sprinkle lime on them?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: He knew of the lime, these occasions here, he actually handed me the packet of lime.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he tell you what to do with it?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes Mr Chairman, he told me to spread it.

CHAIRPERSON: On top of the bodies, after you undressed them?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: Yes sir.

MR MALAN: I wanted to ask this same question, but just from a different angle, clearly the lime wasn't purchased specifically for these events, because the lime was there, it was evening, decisions were made at night.  You have no knowledge of anyone going out to buy it specifically for the burying of specific victims that your applications relate to?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, I am not aware of that.

MR MALAN: And the lime was not only available in Pietermaritzburg near Elandskop, it was also available on other farms?

LAURIE WASSERMAN: It was used on the other farm as well Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: You were involved on more than one occasion, with spreading lime?