Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-14

UNKNOWN: And just to get some clarity because I want to check up on this, was he involved in Heidelberg, the Heidelberg Tavern attack?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: I want to refer you to what Mr Kenneth Mashalaba at page 35 of the papers ...[intervention]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry Mr Chairman, I would like Mr Prior just to wrap up that question because he said he's going to check, whether he can ask the applicant what was the name he used in Cape Town, that is Nxeba, because I understand he was not using the same name.

UNKNOWN: I think Mr Mbandazayo puts it well, maybe he can answer that question.
	What name did Nxeba use in Cape Town?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Maxebu.

UNKNOWN: Mr Kenneth Mashalaba at page 35 of the bundle said he, on the 20th of March 1993, was in Alice when his vehicle was taken from him and I think that was a Nissan motor vehicle.  It was a Nissan Sentra but it doesn't appear so from the statement Mr Chairman.
	Do you remember that vehicle, the Nissan Sentra in Alice?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, this is the one we used to go and attack.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mashalaba said that someone pushed him into the passenger seat and that he had struck this person with his fist, is that correct?  Did this person put up a resistance?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Does Mr Mashalaba say who he was with in the car?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: There was a female on the back seat, do you remember that?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, I wanted you to clarify that point.

UNKNOWN: Now that I've clarified it, do you remember it?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: And do you remember that he put up resistance, he tried to strike the person or did strike the person, pushing him over?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: The lady that was there was in shock, she was in shock because of what was happening.  Mashalaba was in shock and it's the lady that count him down, nobody was beaten, nobody was attacked.  We did not want to fight.  They just showed that they wanted to run away because they were in shock.

MR LAX: Sorry, you haven't heard the question properly, the question was that Mashalaba fought with one of the people who wanted to push him into the passenger seat of the car.  That is what Mashalaba says in his statement, so you didn't understand the question properly.  The question is not that you assaulted anybody or any of your members ...[intervention]

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Excuse me a moment Sir, we did not fight with anyone.  We ended up getting the car and we travelled with them, delivered them between Alice and Fort Beaufort.  We didn't fight with anybody.  Not a single unit member fought with ...[intervention]

MR LAX: If you would just stop and listen for a second, just try and listen.  Try not to think about the trick behind my question, just try and listen carefully then this will go a lot more quickly.  There's not trick.  I'm trying to explain to you that you misunderstood the first question and you'll already trying to tell me that I'm wrong now.  Just listen carefully please.  Gashly, we'll get there, slowly, slowly we'll get there.
	Now, what Mr Prior asked you was what Mashalaba  says in his statement.  He doesn't say you fought with him, he says he fought with one of you.  Do you understand?  I'll read you the section.  He says that he was at his friend's house and when he was leaving:
"Whilst she was standing next to the car and I was about to start my car a guy came and pushed me to the passenger seat and I beat him with my fist and he immediately drew a pistol and said I must be quiet"
That is what he says happened.  Now, what do you say about that, that's what Mr Prior was asking you.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: It is not so.  The reason why I say that is because I have a good memory of what happened and how it happened.  We approached these people, we had the guns.  He had not even entered the car.  We got to him before he got into the car, he was told to move aside.  I was talking to him.  As I was talking to him, that he must go onto the other side so that Nxeba can start the car and drive off.  Mlungisi was talking to the lady.  She is the one who was not too much in shock ...[end of tape]
	...[inaudible] to give in and not to run away.  She is the one who said they must listen to us, which they did.  There was no struggle.  I am the one who talked to him and I didn't hit him.  That's probably a statement that he gave to the police or the TRC, I don't know.  I don't know what led him to say this.  We could have shot him but we didn't, that showed that we talked and communicated with them.  If he had fought one of us we would have beaten him up.  Why didn't anyone shoot at him if they drawn a gun?

MR LAX: Well the answer is quite simple.  He says that once you had pointed the gun at him and told him to be quiet he was quiet, he didn't do anything after that.  So that is why there was no other fight about it.  But anyway, you've given us your answer.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  There's just one final aspect on this matter.  The last paragraph he says
"I asked them whether they took my car or not and they said I must not be worried, they are APLA, African People's Liberation Army soldiers, they are going to kill whites and my car is going to be safe"
Did you say that, did any of your group say that or did you say that to Mr Mashalaba, that you were going to kill whites, you were using his vehicle for that purpose?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, it is so.

UNKNOWN: I want to refer you to page 37 of the bundle, it was Reverend Albert Maboyz Dingane.  He can't remember the precise date, he says it was a Friday evening during March '93, this was the red metal bronze Nissan Langley CAU registration, do you remember that vehicle?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, I do remember it.

UNKNOWN: Was that vehicle taken on the same night of the attack or was it on a different night?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: It was a different night.

UNKNOWN: Before the shooting or after the shooting?  Before the shooting of the 20th of March?  Was Reverend Dingane's vehicle taken before that event or was it after that event?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I think before.

UNKNOWN: He also says in paragraph 3 that firearms were pointed at him when the vehicle was taken from him and he was also threatened with death, you threatened to kill him and that he should simply report the vehicle was stolen and not robbed.  Would you like to just comment on that?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: There is no such thing that we were going to kill him because we would talk to the owners of the car just like we talked to Mr Mashalaba, we never said that we were going to kill anyone.

UNKNOWN: I want to refer the Committee to page 108 of the bundle.
	I refer to remarks that you made during a pointing out.  It would seem from this document that house number 906 the house of one, Mr Zixhasha was pointed out by you.  And I just put this for your comment - this was also - I think the house was in Dimbaza, where you said - and I'm going to translate it from the Afrikaans:
"Jerry, Lester, Vuya, ...[indistinct], Thembelani and myself, we stayed at this house.  It was here that we made petrol bombs and hand grenades with nails fixed to them which were used in the golf club, referring to King William's Town"
Do you remember saying that?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: All that you have said - I was tortured by the Boers, I don't want to run away from that fact.  I had to admit to anything that APLA was responsible for because I was a member of APLA.  There is no such.  If this is so, it is false, it is false.

UNKNOWN: You were never involved in the King William's Town golf club attack?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No, I was never involved.

UNKNOWN: Were you base in Butterworth at any stage before the Fort Beaufort attack?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I can't remember, however I do remember that I met comrade Xomiso in Umtata, it's been a while.