Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-07

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: Before comrade speaker comes in, the strategy of APLA, in terms of the people's war, was actually defined by the situation that APLA was facing at the time.  And the definition was given by the apartheid system itself, because of various defence Acts and amendments that took place during the apartheid regime's time.  It was stipulated that every adult person had to be armed, White person had to be armed.  Now if such a definition is given to an armed preparedness by a Defence Act, ipso facto every household therefore, that conformed with these instructions or with these laws, was a military garrison, in that sense.
 You had commanders all over.  So anything therefore that was defined or any entity that was defined in the Defence Act of the time, in terms of military strategy of the regime, was therefore a legitimate target. Thank you.

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: I just want to add, Mr Chairman, that also our strategy was to start in the rural areas, to train the masses in the rural areas, arm them, to be with the masses, fighting with them in the rural areas. By fighting with them is to lead them, because we are training them at the same time leading them, in the rural areas, encircle the cities.
 Now the targets there, as you know the South African situation is that the farmers are the first targets then in the rural areas, because they are the people who are occupying very big land of our country. So if you want to liberate the whole country, we have to start from there.  The police, who are coming to defend them, we also regard them as our target.  Thank you.

MR GOOSEN: Could you indicate by what legislation and at what point that legislation was introduced, which made it a requirement that every adult person, presumably every White adult person, had to be armed and trained?

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: The record of legislation is there for anybody to research on. But the fact of the matter is, that there was training that was conducted for White adults. Women were actually trained in target shooting.  Men were actually trained in target shooting, and in White schools there was a regimentation of the children to raise their awareness about the war that was to take place or was already taking place.  So there was now that general mobilisation therefore.  It is a source being the State itself, the machinery of the State. It was not just something that each and every school took an initiative on, but it was an initiative by the State itself, countrywide, so now there is a preparation for war.  To the extent therefore that the State itself mobilised people in preparation for a war.  To that extent APLA realised that they were facing the whole White community and this was not of their choosing, but it was described by the apartheid system itself, because it was based on racist philosophies.

MR NTSEBEZA: Mr (indistinct), is your reply therefore that you do not know what Act it is that it is claimed these people, White people had to be, were required to be armed?
You are not in a position as you sit there ...

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: Not at this time.

MR NTSEBEZA: ... to give a legislation. Is it possible for you to provide that legislation, that piece of legislation at a later stage?

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: We will do research to that effect and then this will be provided.

MR NTSEBEZA: Mr Mkhwanazi, it seems to me that you possibly want to give us chapter and verse, and I would like to hear from the political commissar, as he was introduced, because much of the philosophy of this armed struggle would obviously have been informed by the position - I am not dictating the way in which you should make presentations, but Mr Mlambo would possibly be able to inform us on some of the thinking that went behind some of the questions that have been put already.

MR MKHWANAZI: Yes, Mr Chairman, I just want to confirm one point.  While we accept the requirement that we should provide the law, and the onus is being given on us to do that, when it is definitely known that perhaps we are not lawyers ourselves, but as Mr (indistinct) said we will make an effort to provide, but the fact of the matter is, that it is a well-known fact that every adult White, unless this can be denied in this house, every White South African in this room, has been trained by the law which was - I think it was a conscription law, I think it is an open secret that there was a law of conscription in this country, and not one single person, unless for special reasons of health and what, who was a South African, did not go, who was not conscripted at a certain age.  So I just want to say that we have that. That is common knowledge, besides the fact that we will provide the law.  We are not just taking it from complete ignorance. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Could I just intervene here for a moment and say that I hope we are not going to be bogged down in this. I think the request has been made, but the fact of the matter is, that conscription was required of all White adult males for a very long period in South Africa, and I think you have established that as a fact, and I think you are using that as a background as to where, why you saw those who were White and were trained, as the target.
 Just for your information, I was not so trained and I have never owned a gun. I don't know even what it looks like. So you have a benefit over me.  So I just want to make the point that we can't generalise, but the main point that you are making, is that conscription of only White adult males was introduced, was carried out and I think that's the point and I hope we will not be bogged down on that one. Thank you.

MR GOOSEN: Mr Chairperson, I don't believe that would be belabouring the point. It is rather fundamental to understanding this strategic objectives that APLA defined for itself.
 Mr Mkhwanazi, it is also a well-known fact that thousands of White conscripts in fact refused to participate in the South African Defence Force.  Some people in fact went to prison for fairly long periods, precisely because they refused.
 It is also a fairly well-known fact, if we are going to use that appellation, that very large numbers of members of the White community opposed that system of militarisation and conscription.  How does that fact bear with the notion that every single White member of the White community would then fall within the definition of a legitimate target?

MR MKHWANAZI: Those Whites who opposed were either in exile or in jail.

MR GOOSEN: I was neither in exile nor in jail.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mlambo will continue.

J P MLAMBO: Yes, Mr Chairman, I just want to emphasise here that when we look at this aspect we should appreciate the complexity of the situation.  In 1960, March, our founding president said we are ready to die for the cause of liberation, we are not yet ready to kill. But on March 21st our people were shot.  And in 1961 we had pistol clubs that were ... (indistinct - microphone switched off).

MR NTSEBEZA: I am sorry, you are not speaking into the mike.