Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-09

MR VISSER: It is noted on your page 7 at the bottom to page 8, Chairperson, where certain allegations are made and dealt with.
	Mr Botha, I would just like to refer you to a number of aspects.  In bundle 2, from page 130 and 131, there is a statement from Mr Jimmy Mbane and I will not discuss everything with you, but just put the most important points to you, there he states that he and Dube, by the way Mr Dube has also passed away subsequently.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, that is what I understand.

MR VISSER: That he and Dube undertook this infiltration and that he, Mbane, that is paragraph 42, gave Khubeka a bag of AK47s to keep for him.  Do you know anything about that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, I don't know anything about that.

MR VISSER: He also says that they reported to Col Taylor and then on the next page, page 131 he states in paragraph 44, and he refers to a man by the name of Sbu, S-B-U from Lamontville, who wanted them to go to Transkei to fetch weapons.  Do you know anything about that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson, I don't know anything about that.

MR VISSER: Because he continues to allege that his seniors, with reference to white officers, then instructed Sbu, if that is the correct pronunciation, had to be brought to the base near Winkelspruit and that he was later killed there.  Do you know anything about this?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, I don't know anything about this.

MR VISSER: And then in paragraph 44 he refers further that they had an appointment with Khubeka to pick her up from the Durban Station and that she was then handed over to the white senior officers and then he says
"Nthombi was blindfolded and tied tightly."
You've already given evidence that you cannot recall whether her hands were bound from the point of her arrest and during her transportation to Winkelspruit.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And then he mentioned names, he says
"The body was taken out" well
		"She was interrogated and severely tortured."
And what I want to ask you is whether Mr Jimmy Mbane was present during this interrogation?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson, not as far as I know.

MR VISSER: And whatever is intended with "severely tortured", you have tried your best to explain to the Committee how you regarded this assault on Mrs Khubeka.  Would you have regarded this as severe torture?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: In my opinion it was not severe torture.

MR VISSER: And then Mr Mbane states furthermore in that same paragraph that her body, that she passed away and that her body was taken to Myeza - her body was taken out by Myeza, Lawrie and Coetzer to somewhere and you recall that it was Coetzer, du Preez and Wasserman?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Do you know anything about Col Taylor paying Mbane and Dube R7 000 each for their participation in this operation?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, I don't know anything like that.

MR VISSER: Now in bundle 1 ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you proceed Mr Visser, are you saying, Col Botha, that Coetzer, du Preez and Wasserman, they took the body for disposal?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Who took the body for disposal?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Wasserman and du Preez.

CHAIRPERSON: Just the two of them?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And what about Mr Myeza?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you say you don't know anything about this person by the name of Sbu being killed, are you saying you just don't know anything about it, it may have happened, you don't know or are you denying it?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I deny that such a person was ever killed there, that is what I'm saying.

CHAIRPERSON: And also from the statements, well I've asked you this before, it would seem from this statement that it wasn't only Mbane who handed over, or came with Mrs Khubeka when you took her, because he says
"We picked her up and came..."
but you say it was only the two of them, Mbane and Mrs Khubeka in the vehicle when you got hold of Mrs Khubeka?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR LAX: Just on that point, was Dube maybe present?  Would you even remember that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: My recollection of Khubeka's seizure at Battery Beach is that it was only her and Mbane in the vehicle.

MR LAX: But you can't exclude the possibility that Dube might have been present?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It is possible, Chairperson.

MR LAX: I'm just clarifying that.

MR VISSER: Just to continue, with regard to obvious contradictions in bundle 1 page 85, there Mr Ras, before withdrawing his application, gave his version of the events and I just want to refer you to the fact that on page 85 he refers to a person who was placed, or whose legs were placed in plaster of Paris.  Perhaps I should read it Mr Chairman, page 85, some distance down, Mr Ras says:  Well, perhaps I should ...(intervention)

MR LAX: It's the last sentence of that paragraph.

MR VISSER: The last sentence of the previous page seems to be the place to start
"The askaris then managed this,"
that is to the penetration and he says:
"As far as I can recall, Sgt Joe Coetzer and Col Hentie Botha were present when we drew the vehicle off and arrested the unknown ANC member.  Other members may also have been involved, but I cannot recall their names.  The ANC member was hover never charged or taken to a police station.  We, as far as I can recall, it was me, Joe Coetzer and Hentie Botha, we were involved and there may still be others, but I cannot recall their names.  The unknown ANC member was taken to our residence at Winkelspruit, where he was interrogated.  He gave his co-operation without any problems.  He stated that he would assist in identifying the other person who was involved in the ANC cell.  He also undertook to introduce some of our askaris to an ANC woman, one Nthombi who apparently had direct contact with Lusaka."
Then the important sentence:
"Because we could not trust the man completely, we placed his leg in plaster of Paris in order to prevent his escape."
Do you have any recollection of what Mr Ras has stated here and if so, what is your recollection?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, Marthinus Ras is confusing two incidents here and describing it as one.  Firstly, regarding the fact that the intelligence operations spanned a period of two months, Mr Ras was here for a portion of that time, but there was an interruption of intermediate times when they would return to Pretoria for the exchange of askari teams.  The first occasion was a normal operation in which we seized a trained terrorist and turned this terrorist to be re-applied as an informer.  The second case was an existing informer who was used.  His leg was placed in plaster of Paris and he went under the codename of Spykerbeen.

MR VISSER: S-P-Y-K-E-R?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.  And in that case ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: I beg your pardon for interrupting you, but who was applied to introduce the askaris to Khubeka?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It was Spykerbeen.

MR VISSER: Very well. And Spykerbeen, what happened to him after the incident?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: He was used as an informer.

MR VISSER: He simply continued as an informer?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.  Reference has been made to him in a statement within a document which incorporates a statement from the sister of Nthombi Khubeka.

MR VISSER: But when Mr Ras states on page 85, the third paragraph
"Col Hentie Botha then took the arrested ANC member with him",
This is with reference to the person whose leg was placed in plaster of Paris.  You said that he is confusing two incidents.  That is in the third paragraph.