Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-21

MR H DU PLESSIS: So if you say that the Chairman approved something, it is an assumption which you make, or it is hearsay, is that correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is correct.

MR H DU PLESSIS: You have heard Gen Webb testified that the Omar project and the Evans project was never submitted to him for approval, you cannot contest that?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I cannot contest that.

CHAIRPERSON: Seeing that the pre-study was in writing, and you had this procedure, were orders ever given in writing?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: In any of these instances that you have spoken about, the four instances, Messrs Evans, Omar, the ELC and the baboon instance, was the order given in writing?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: As far as the Athlone bombing is concerned, Chairperson, I know everything was approved in writing.  I don't know how the Managing Director, how he got his approval from the Managing Director, but it was there in writing, I can recall that, it was on the project file.
	I will not tell the truth if I say that I saw the Chairman's signature there, I cannot recall that.

CHAIRPERSON: But in each instance, you saw a written approval?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, except with the baboon project, I did not see a written submission.

MR H DU PLESSIS: Thank you.  Mr Burger, am I understanding correctly that the written approval that you saw, was the written approval from the Managing Director?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR H DU PLESSIS: You also heard that Gen Webb testified that the project to detonate the bomb at the Early Learning Centre, was submitted to him on the 30th of August, you cannot contest that?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I cannot.

MR H DU PLESSIS: I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR H DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Martini, do you have any questions that you would like to ask?

MR MARTINI: Just one question Mr Chairperson.  Mr Burger, earlier I heard, I am not sure if it was the translation, but dealing with the taxi, the way I understood the evidence, the taxi and for that matter, the printing press, were never burnt?  Was it your information that the taxi and the printing press were actually burnt down?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, that was the impression that I had.

MR MARTINI: Mr van Zyl's evidence is that in fact the taxi and the printing press were never burnt?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think Mr van Zyl's evidence, Mr Martini, as far as I can recall it, it was that one stage he believed that it had been burnt, and only some time later, that he learnt that he had been duped?

MR MARTINI: Correct.

MR LAX: He also did also say Mr Martini, as far as I recall, subject to correction, but my recollection is that he said he wouldn't have told Burger the fact that in fact they hadn't been burnt down, because he didn't want to create the impression that he was being misled in this sort of way.

MR MARTINI: One more question Chairperson ...

CHAIRPERSON: Just on that, when did you first learn that the taxi and the printing press were never burnt down, you yourself personally, when did you first get that knowledge?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: It was quite a while afterwards.  I cannot recall, but I don't know if it was during the Harms Commission or afterwards.

MR MARTINI: Thank you Chair.  Mr Burger, you as the Regional Manager who gave the instructions, and I am talking now specifically in respect of Mr van Zyl, my client, as far as you are concerned, you gave instructions to execute the projects, would you accept, or is it correct that the only projects in which Mr van Zyl was involved in, would be "Apie", Min Omar, the Early Learning Centre, Gavin Evans, monitoring of Mr Lubowski, the SWAPO so-called taxi and the printing press?  Would those be the only projects that Mr van Zyl was involved, to your knowledge as Regional Manager?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is all.

MR MARTINI: You as the Regional Manager, so to speak, in control of Mr van Zyl, have no knowledge of any other projects that Mr van Zyl might be involved in under Region 6?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR MARTINI: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARTINI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Martini.  Mr van Eck?

MR VAN ECK: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Burger, I don't want to go through Mr Botha's whole history and evidence, but I want to clarify certain points.
	You met him at Brixton?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR VAN ECK: You were his Commanding Officer?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR VAN ECK: Am I correct if I say that at Brixton at that point, there was quite a lot of discipline?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I didn't hear you?

MR VAN ECK: There was quite, the discipline was quite harsh, an Officer was an Officer and an Sergeant listened to him?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is correct, yes.

MR VAN ECK: The choice you had when you went to the CCB, how did you decide which members you were to approach to join you?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I can remember that there were several members, to tell the truth, I heard Mr van Zyl's evidence and he was also transferred to Natal or Pietermaritzburg, I know Mr Maree had to be transferred, I cannot recall if Mr Botha was also being transferred, but I approached him and asked him if he wanted to come to Special Forces.

MR VAN ECK: In that first period where you were with Matthysen, will it be correct to say if you were still called Colonel, addressed as Colonel?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR VAN ECK: The salaries in the beginning, you were paid in cash, the members were paid in cash?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR VAN ECK: After you were established and the members established their blue plans, you became involved in real CCB workings, were there names provided out of the structure of the CCB to members?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR VAN ECK: And to Botha was given the names of Frank Chikane and Bruce White?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I can only remember Roland, Bruce, well we thought it was Bruce White, but Roland White is the correct name.  That is the name that was given to him by Mr Basson.

MR VAN ECK: His evidence will be that the name Frank Chikane was also given to him, but he never did anything about it, or couldn't do anything about it?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, you see it is possible Chairperson, because even within your own ranks, and if Mr Basson for example got the information from the information structure of the CCB, then he would not pull only one name for protection of the cut off points in a covert organisation, so that the person who is at information structure, if something would happen to Mr White, or to Mr Chikane, or to other people, there had to be several names.  If you pull one name and something would happen to the person, that information person, who handled it, he would know that Mr Basson at least, knew about it, so therefore it is possible that there was more than one name given to a person.

MR VAN ECK: And he would also say that afterwards he leant that the name of Frank Chikane was given to somebody else to handle, before he could do anything about it?  Do you know anything about that?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I have no knowledge about actions or operations involving Mr Chikane.

MR VAN ECK: In the pre-studies held with you, in the several projects, say for example the Early Learning in the beginning, were there any members allowed to be present, to listen to what was going on?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR VAN ECK: Was it on a confidential basis, the so-called need to know basis?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR VAN ECK: After you learnt that the police found Mr Botha and Barnard where they observed and monitored Mr White, apparently you were upset about this matter and this led to that Mr Botha at that stage, was placed on ice?  What according to you, what did it mean in CCB terms to be put on ice?