Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR DREYER: Strangely enough on the 12th, it was only your group and the people under your command, who acted that day, because you told them to?  You told them that it was said to you that this was the real McCoy, D-Day, but during the criminal proceedings, you said that a D-Day wasn't discussed.  Where does this come from, where do you get the 12th of December?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: D-Day would be the date of war, and the 12th of December was the date of the revolution.

CHAIRPERSON: What the Advocate has just read to you, does it contain the truth?  Does it represent the truth?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No, it does not.  I don't understand what you are trying to say.

CHAIRPERSON: He read to you what you said before the court.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes, I think there might just be a misinterpretation of the date when we speak of D-Day we speak of the days of war.  The 12th of December was the date of the commencement of the revolution, when we are speaking of the revolution itself, the D-Day for the war was never discussed, but the 12th of December was in fact discussed.

CHAIRPERSON: ...  was not the truth?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I don't think that you understand the distinction between D-Day and the 12th of December.

CHAIRPERSON: To read it again?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes, I would like him to read it again.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, you might have to read it again because you see Mr Dreyer, we don't have a copy of that record, neither has the witness.

MR DREYER: I will read it again.  It is on page 670, volume 8 and I will once again read it to you.  Was the war discussed that afternoon and you said it was never directly referred to that we would wage war on D-Day but it was said to us that there would not be a 27th of April.
	The day of the 27th of April would not break, is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes, that is correct.

MR DREYER: Then my question was very simple, where did you get the date of the 12th of December?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is why I am saying that people don't understand that question.  The D-Day indicates the day of war and on that day, the day of war was not discussed, but what was in fact discussed was the revolution which would take place on the 12th of December 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dreyer what are you suggesting?  Is he saying that it is correct that as he testified or that is the truth?

MR DREYER: If I understand him correctly, he is saying that he testified as such and that it is the truth.  Is that correct, is that what you testified and according to you is that also the truth?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: On that specific day only the revolution was discussed and not D-Day or a date of war, and there is a difference between a revolution and a war and that is what I am trying to convey to the Honourable Advocate.

MR DREYER: Well, then I would appreciate it if you would, because otherwise I am still at a complete loss for words, because I still don't understand the difference between the war and the revolution, but I will leave it there for the time being.
	Are you telling the Committee that a revolution was planned from the 12th to the 15th of December, a three day revolution and then on the 16th of December, the revolution would come to an end, it would not continue because this revolution has absolutely nothing to do with the war, it is a different issue, it is a war, we don't know what it is, but it is not a war, and then on the 16th of December, the war would begin, whatever that may be?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: You have the facts basically correct.  The 12th of December was the beginning of the revolution which would involve assassinations, mass actions, small group attacks, home penetrations, road blocks and so forth and that would have gone on to the 15th or the 16th of December which I believed would be the date when the war itself would begin.

MR DREYER: Are you saying that this would have occurred in forms of guerilla warfare?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes, it would have started as guerilla war far with small groups and then it would have gone over to a mass scale war.

MR DREYER: Our problem is just that from all these road blocks, assassinations, bomb explosions and I don't know what else you have just mentioned, the long list that you have mentioned, the only thing that occurred during this revolution of the 12th of December, was this incident of the road block and the murder of the people there?
	That is the total, national revolution of the AWB?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I can only answer to that feedback which I have received from Gen Oelofse, he was very unhappy and very dissatisfied with the other areas.  He said that we were the only are who had gone out and who had worked, so in his own words I must say to you yes, we were the only ones who began the revolution that night.

MR DREYER: But then it was not the AWB's revolution, it was your revolution?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No, it was Gen Oelofse's.

CHAIRPERSON: You should stop.  I think we should, it is past four now, I think we should adjourn until tomorrow morning.

MR DREYER: Mr Chairman, may I just for the purposes of continuity ask one more question.  I promise it will be only one question.
	Mr Kloppers, just tell me, can you think of any reason whatsoever what happened to the failure of a revolution which would have gone from the 12th to the 15th of December, can you think of any reason whatsoever what happened to the failure of a revolution which would have gone from the 12th to the 15th of December, why didn't the war take place on the 16th of December?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Must I answer according to the revolution from the 12th of December, or the war?

MR DREYER: My question is, forget the revolution from the 12th to the 15th of December, irrespective of what you did, and irrespective of whether according to your allegation it was Gen Oelofse's revolution, can you think of one single reason why the war which you have described, and that is the war which is different to the revolution, why this war did not commence on the 16th of December if this was part of the decisions of the Generals in staff, why did it not begin?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I cannot answer you regarding that.

MR DREYER: Did it ever begin after that?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It never began.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would just like to make an objection, the applicant has said on various occasions that the D-Day or date of the war was never discussed.  It was his opinion that it would in fact be the 16th of December.  But here he has testified that D-Day was never discussed, only the revolution.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is still legitimate.  As you say he confirmed that he told the trial court that in his opinion, the war would start on the 16th and he still says that is what he thought.  And it is a legitimate question to ask him why the war didn't start on the 16th as he thought.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes, the final remark was that D-Day was never discussed and never took place.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this the convenient point where we can stop until tomorrow morning?

MR DREYER: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until half past nine.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION ON 24-04-1998 - DAY 5

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: ;   (s.u.o.)

MS VAN DER WALT: Before Mr Dreyer proceeds Mr Chairperson, yesterday I was notified by the medical staff that Mr Kloppers apparently at one point, was not feeling too well.  His blood pressure was 180 over 130, and unfortunately I did not know about that.  He didn't have all his medication with him either.  However, they today they will give me an indication as to whether or not he will be able to continue, but at this point he is prepared and he is quite peaceful and his blood pressure is not too high, I thought that I should mention it, because they requested that I do.