Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-14

ADV MEMANI: Now in the Judgement, I beg Mr Chair's pardon, I haven't 
made a note of where it appears on the record, but there is some reference to 
the fact that there was no blood found at the house of Mr Venter and that 
makes it improbable that Mr Venter would have been shot in that house 
because the doctor said that if Mr Venter had been shot in his house, then he or 
she would have expected to find blood to be found by the police on the scene, 
because he would have bled profusely. Do you have any comment as to why 
there was no blood found there if you shot him inside the house?  That if Mr 
Venter had been shot in the house as described by Mr Ngo, he or she would 
have expected blood to be found on the scene because a person shot in the 
manner described by Mr Ngo would have bled profusely.  The Police testified 
that there was no blood found on the scene.  The learned judge then in his 
judgement made a finding that it is improbable that Mr Venter was shot in his 
house in the light of the evidence given by the doctor and the police.  I am now 
asking Mr Ngo to tell us why no blood was found in the house of Mr Venter.  I 
have been told that it's page 32 line 20 of the judgement My Lord.
	Now we are waiting for the answer from Mr Ngo I suppose.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I didn't quite understand your question.

ADV MEMANI: At the trial the Doctor testified, let me start with the police, 
the police testified that when they arrived at Mr Venter's house there was no 
blood on the floor and the Doctor testified that if Mr Venter had been shot in 
his house in the manner in which it's described and had suffered the wounds 
that he suffered, he would have bled profusely and he would have expected the 
police to find blood on the scene.  The presiding judge then in his judgement 
remarked that if you were telling the truth then you would have expected in the 
light of what he's been told by his doctor and the police that blood should be 
found on the scene.  Now I'm asking you to tell the Committee why no blood 
was found on the scene.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Where I shot him it was in the sitting room. There were sofas 
there, there were carpets just next to every sofa.  They were round and they 
were put in front of the sofa, so after I shot him he fell on one of the carpets 
which were there. When we returned I found him lying on one of the carpets, 
he was bleeding.  I did not take a long time before I came back.  I ran fast from 
the car to the house, where he fell he fell on one of the carpets, he was not on 
the mats on the mats which were fixed on the floor.  We took him together with 
the carpets and took him outside.  The blood which was there was on the carpet 
which we took together with the body, where he fell, so we took him together 
with that carpet.

JUDGE WILSON: Cupboard or carpet? Carpet.

ADV MEMANI: Now another aspect Mr Ngo is the question of your 
testimony at the court...(intervention).

JUDGE WILSON: Sorry before you go on, can I ask him something about 
this.  Is the only blood stained you removed the carpet that his head was lying 
on?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He fell on the floor mat so we rolled that mat on his body, so we 
took him together with that floor mat.

JUDGE WILSON: Is that the only trace of blood you removed from the 
room, you didn't clean up the room in any other way?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He fell on that floor mat, his head fell on that floor mat which was 
on top of the carpet, so I took the pillow and covered his head and took him 
together with that floor mat but I did not see any other blood stains on the floor 
or somewhere else.

JUDGE WILSON: He was standing was he when you shot him?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was reading a paper.

JUDGE WILSON: Because you see the doctor also said there would have 
been spots of blood caused by the impact of the bullet and no such spots were 
found.  Can you explain that.

ADV MEMANI: At which page are we My Lord.

JUDGE WILSON: Page 32 line 20. 
	Volgens Professor Olivier sal daar sekerlik ..there would definitely 
have been spots with the shot being fired. If the body of the 
deceased had stayed in one place and after that he would have 
expected that there would have been quite some blood under the 
head.
Can you explain why there weren't spots of blood elsewhere caused by the 
impact of the bullet?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I'm not able to explain that as to why there were no blood stains 
somewhere else because I was not looking.  What I did is that I shot him.  After 
shooting him he fell, he wanted to lean forward but at the time when I shot him 
I pressed him down and then I tied him on the hands and feet.  Whether there 
was no blood elsewhere I'm not able to testify.

ADV MEMANI: Is it correct Mr Ngo that the furniture that was in the house 
was also removed in the room where Mr Venter was shot?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is true.

ADV MEMANI: Did you inspect that furniture to see if it had blood stains on 
it or not?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I didn't have an opportunity to inspect the furniture on my own.  I 
don't know of people who remained with the furniture in But...(indistinct), that's 
why they did inspect, that's where there were blood stains.

ADV MEMANI: A question which seemed to arise again was why, when you 
had already seen that the police were not helping you after you had killed Mr 
Venter, did you then not choose to tell the truth and say that 'I was sent by 
Coetzee and Erasmus to do this thing' and chose to implicate your brothers 
instead?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: They didn't say to me they are helping me and they did help me.  
They used to bring money to me in prison and at the same time they helped me 
to escape from prison.

ADV MEMANI: And in court, why did you chose to implicate your brothers 
and say that they were responsible for the killing of Mr Venter?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: As I explained, in court I gave evidence in fact hoping that they 
will do all means that I should not be imprisoned.  As they did promise me that 
they will make it possible for me to escape from prison, so I trusted them 
because there were many things which they were able to do for you as 
members of the Security Branch that they would negotiate with the prison 
officials for my escape so that they would arrange with other prison officials 
that I should escape.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Ngo, your counsel is taking you back to  questions 
which you were asked and which you answered, which area he did not traverse 
or did traverse during the opportunity he was given to reexamine, which 
reexamination he did carry out.  Now do you remember the answers you gave 
to this same question which was asked you last time, do you remember what 
answer you gave as to why you incriminated your brothers during the trial, for 
example?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Do you mean in which way did they help me to bury the body or 
to give evidence, I don't understand the question correctly Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I'm not talking about the police, I'm asking you, do you 
remember that the same question was asked of you last time and do you 
remember the answer you gave last time?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: To say that my brothers should help me.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why you incriminated your our brothers and risked them 
going to jail or being sentenced to death and not spill the beans?  Do you 
remember the answer you gave last time?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes I do remember Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What did you say last time?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I said I, one of my brothers was used as a state witness against me.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well is it the same answer that you have just given a few 
minutes ago?