Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-27

MR VISSER: Let us quickly go through the separate cases or instances mentioned.  Firstly as far as Mr Ngo is concerned, you are aware of the testimony he gave that he had been brought here from Pretoria and that in a meeting where you were present he was instructed to kill Venter, is that true?

MR SHAW: No, it isn't true.

MR VISSER: He also told the Committee that you at the Hamilton shooting range instructed him and proposed the plan regarding how to get into Mr Venter's house.

MR SHAW: That is untrue.

MR VISSER: The suggestion was that he had to use an Old Mutual Insurance form and take that to discuss it with Mr Venter and once he had been admitted into the house he had to shoot him with a firearm which you had provided to him at the Hamilton shooting range.

MR SHAW: I deny the allegations they are untrue.

MR VISSER: Well, that is not necesarily everything that he had said but we know that Venter was murdered, that his house was emptied and all the goods stolen and that there was a later trial.  Did you have anything whatsoever to do with this murder of Mr Venter?

MR SHAW: I had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with Mr Venter's death.

MR VISSER: Was Mr Venter an activist?

MR SHAW: I didn't know Mr Venter, I wasn't aware of the fact that he could have been an activist.

MR VISSER: On page 23 of his application, Mr Ngo indicated that Erasmus and you had a problem with White Mohapi in that he every time he was taken to court was let off and you then gave Mr Ngo the instruction to monitor this person White Mohapi and to note all and report all his misdemeanours or movements so that you could succeed in putting him in jail permanently.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give me the page reference again?

MR VISSER: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: The page reference, you gave a page reference.

MR VISSER: Page 23.  I'm working from my notes, I may be wrong Mr Chairman but let me just check.

CHAIRPERSON: No you're right it is.

MR VISSER: Yes, 23.
	I've now asked a long question, let me just shorten it.  The evidence of Mr Ngo is that you and Erasmus felt that something had to be done to Mohapi because he'd he got away with it in court.

MR SHAW: That's untrue.

MR VISSER: And that arrangements were made with the Bayswater police station that he would not be released the morning but in the evening after he had been detained for 14 days in April 1984.  I'm sorry, Mr Ngo said '86.  We will offer testimony that its clearly a situation that presented itself in '84.
	The question I'm putting to you now is, did you have anything to do with the arrangements that Mr Mohapi had to be detained and only released later that evening?

MR SHAW: I had nothing to do with the arrangements nor do I have any knowledge of the incident.

MR VISSER: The testimony is further that you and Erasmus gave instructions that Mr White Mohapi had to be abducted and assaulted, is that true?

MR SHAW: I deny that.

MR VISSER: On page 28 Mr Ngo said that you were present and participated in the assault and torture of members of the group of 19 people who had been transferred from Ladybrand to Bloemfontein in April '86, is that true?

MR SHAW: That is untrue.

MR VISSER: Were you present at any time during the interrogation of those persons?

MR SHAW: I have knowledge of the matter, the persons who were transported from Ladybrand to Bloemfontein and were interrogated by members of the security branch.  My instructions came from Colonel du Plooy who was looking for people to assist them with the interrogation of these people and I made people available for this purpose. 	This now deals with the detention of these people in order to complete the necessary administrative forms.

MR VISSER: To complete the administrative matters, in other words the processing of these people?

MR SHAW: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Did you yourself participate in any interrogation?

MR SHAW: No, I was not involved in any interrogation.

MR VISSER: I did not not make any notes, I am not quite sure whether you told me, if you do not know anything about it please say so.  Do you know whether there were any informants among those people, that's the group of 19?

MR SHAW: As far as I know there were informants among them.

MR VISSER: Were they of your informants?

MR SHAW: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Can you just tell us, can you remember how many of those 19 people were informants at that stage?

MR SHAW: I wouldn't know, I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when you said: "your informers", did you mean you personally or the security branch Bloemfontein?

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, let me - I think the witness witness must rather answer reply to that.  	Mr Shaw if we refer to the informants and whose they were, if you say: "yes", did you mean that they were your personal informers or were they informers of whom you were aware had been or were informers of the security branch?

MR SHAW: They were of my - one of them was my informer.  I don't know whether there were any others among them.

MR VISSER: But one of them was your own informer?

MR SHAW: That's correct.

MR VISSER: With the regards to the allegation made by Mr Ngo of the raid and the arrest of 40 to 50 students, scholars at Botshabello in '86, it is alleged that you personally also participated in the assault or torture of these people.  Now the first question I have for you is, did you have anything to do with this incident?

MR SHAW: I have no knowledge of the incident.

MR VISSER: Were you present during any processing or handling of these persons in Botshabello?

MR SHAW: I have no knowledge of the matter.

MR VISSER: If we may go over to Mr Motsamai on page 145 of bundle A, he referred to the murder of George Musi.  This is a murder which was committed in Milk Street or Melk Street and he said that Coetzee and you gave him instructions and also to Mamome to murder George Musi.

MR SHAW: I have no knowledge of that matter, I do not know George Musi at all.

MR VISSER: And then he also said, this is now Mr Motsamai page 145 that you gave instructions that the house of Mrs Winnie Mandela should be attacked or that you participated in that, is that correct?

MR SHAW: That's not correct.

MR VISSER: And furthermore that you also gave instructions or participated in the attack on a clinic belonging to Mrs Winnie Mandela.

MR SHAW: That's also untrue.

MR VISSER: I think you have already said it but as far there is any allegation of illegality, what is your reaction?

MR SHAW: I was not involved in these illegalities at all.

MR VISSER: Mr Shaw, if we can just chat for a moment about Mr Nelson Ngo.  When did you become aware of him for the first time and is there something that you can tell us of what you can remember about his relationship with the police?

MR SHAW: I know that he was an informer of the branch.  I did not deal with him myself, he was dealt with by superintendent Erasmus.  I knew him, he was an informer of the office.  I did not deal with him but superintendent Erasmus did.  I know about the incident where he was attacked at the school.

MR VISSER: Can you recall in what year this took place?

MR SHAW: I cannot remember precisely.

MR VISSER: Continue please.

MR SHAW: And that he worked at the security branch as a student for a month or two before he went to the police college.

MR VISSER: And that was in '86?

MR SHAW: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Until he left for the police training college in Pretoria?

MR SHAW: That's correct.

MR VISSER: After he left Bloemfontein, we know this was in July of '86, did you ever hear from him or see see him again or have anything to do with him?

MR SHAW: I had nothing further to do with him.

MR VISSER: Who dealt with him?

MR SHAW: Superintendent Erasmus.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I do this with hesitation because it is relevant.
	But let me just ask you, do you know a person with the name Molefe, S.S. Molefe?

MR SHAW: No.