Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-02

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The person who arrived there was an attorney who asked me questions and making me sign an application and advising me about how I must respond.

MR NTONGA: Yes, I appreciate that but you asked a question from the form and you give information, you write it down.  It's the the normal procedure to complete a form?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, I remember that.

MR NTONGA: Did you give him the name of the man who gave you the commands in that application in respect of the convictions in East London?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I cannot remember well as to how I answered that question unless you can remind me.

MR NTONGA: No, no, you were asked who gave the orders, who commanded that unit and you gave a name ...[indistinct] that name.  Do you still remember that, at page 29?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: ...[no English translation]

MR NTONGA: You remember that name that you gave at page 29?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I remember it as I see, as it is written down here now.

MR NTONGA: You were also asked about the dates when you were given orders and you said that you could not remember the dates, same page, same paragraph.  Do you remember that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, I remember.

MR NTONGA: And your affidavit is dated the 27th of September 1996, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I see it.

MR NTONGA: Let's look at the next application in respect of the minibus ...[indistinct] 41.  In that application you were applying for the minibus incident, remember?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, I remember.

MR LAX: Sorry, this is page 41, it's different to the typed one you've got there.

COURT: ...[indistinct]

MR LAX: Is that handed in?  I beg your pardon.

MR NTONGA: And there in your application for the first time you mention Tjabane.

MR NTONGA: At page 44 Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well shouldn't we call him Tjabane or should we call him Jimmy Jones because the applicant has in the main been calling him Jimmy Jones hasn't he?

MR NTONGA: No problem.
	There you mention Jimmy Jones at page 44.

MR LAX: Sorry, he also mentions him at page 41.

MR NTONGA: If you compare the two applications - and for the time being forget about the affidavit you made later on, will I be correct to say that it appears that Jimmy Jones was only involved in the minibus attack but not in the other operations that were involved in the East London Supreme Court, will I be correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, that is not so.

MR NTONGA: I know what you have said in your affidavit but looking at the two applications, in the first one where you list a lot of, may counts, it counts murder, whatever it is, you give one commander and in the second one where you are applying for the minibus attack you gave another commander who gave you orders.  Will I not be correct to say that if you look at those two applications it appears that for other operations one man gave orders and for one operation other men gave orders?  Is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, it's true that this are not similar, these applications.

MR NTONGA: And another - this application of the minibus was made some time in 1977(?), on the 26th September 1987, about a year apart.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I see it.

MR NTONGA: Is it also not correct that the minibus attack was the first attack?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so, it was the first attack.

MR NTONGA: Is it not perhaps correct that as you have put in your first application, that the other attacks were really ordered by the man you said in your first application?  I appreciate your affidavit.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: As I've said already, what I've said in my first application I was saying on the advice of the attorney who came to help me assign that application.

CHAIRPERSON: How did the attorney come to see you?  Did you ask to be, for legal aid or something to get the services of an attorney?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I did not ask for an attorney I simply saw an attorney arriving.  He did not ask me alone, he also asked other PAC members who were there, telling us that it is the PAC that sent him to come and make us sign those applications.

MR LAX: Do I take it from that that you yourself had no intention of applying for amnesty at that stage, it was only when this man arrived that you decided "Well I'll take advantage of this opportunity?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I had intentions of applying for amnesty.

MR LAX: Well how did you make those intentions known and how did you intend to execute them?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We took a period of about six months or about the whole of '96 phoning the offices of Mr Ntonga and Mr Mbandazayo to come and help us make these applications for amnesty, they never came.  They - we were told that they are at Goedemoed or P.E., they never came.

MR LAX: And then who actually came to help you fill in this form eventually?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was a Mr Mbanjo.

MR LAX: Was he not connected to Mr Ntonga's office or was he from some other office?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: He said he was coming from King William's Town.

MR NTONGA: I don't know Mr Chairman if I can assist here?  What really happened is that the PAC head office sent us a list of all the people on behalf of the legal aid for amnesty and we divided that work amongst certain firms.   Our firm took others, other firms took others so that's how the people were seen in prison.   Mr ...[indistinct] King under ...[indistinct] and company.
	I put my first proposition before I finish that it's not perhaps that the other attacks, that is other skirmishes or operations were really ordered by the said Mr Fundisi and you've said "no", remember that?, not by Jimmy Jones?
	I want to put another proposition to you, before I put it, you told the Commission that you are not aware exactly when there was a decision by the PAC to suspend the armed struggle, you heard about it but you did not receive it directly from your commander.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR NTONGA: Is it not - this position is not possible that commands were given before the 17th of January '94 but were carried out thereafter because of whatever reason, breakdown of communication or whatever it is.  Is that not possible, that commands were given before the suspension of armed struggle which is the 17th of January '94 but that order did not reach the men on the ground and they ...[indistinct] the operation nevertheless.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR NTONGA: Lastly, you have told the Chairman that you understand the structure of the organisation, was it normal procedure for you as a cadre to communicate or even report directly to a man who was about two ranks above you, ...[indistinct] leader, that is Jimmy Jones?  Do you want me to repeat it?  Do you want me to repeat it, the question?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, please repeat the question.

MR NTONGA: Do you say that in your unit it was normal procedure to report to Jimmy Jones who was about two ranks higher than your own unit leader, not for the unit leader to report to his superior and that superior to repeat it to Jimmy Jones?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What I knew was that the report back must be sent back to the same person who gave the order.  I could not give the report back to the unit commander because I gave the report back to Jimmy Jones as the one who gave us the instruction.

MR NTONGA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

MS COLLETT: Thank you Mr Chairman. ...[intervention]

MR PRIOR: Sorry Mr Chairman, it was indicated yesterday that the widows of the deceased wanted to ask questions so possibly before Advocate Corlett re-examines?  Mrs Rasavi would like to ask a few questions.
	Could you come up please?

CHAIRPERSON: Before you start questioning, could you just give us your personal details?