Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: What I can remember is that it was reported to me that Temba Mabota had been arrested in possession of certain notes which he had to take out the country and he had to phone the papers from there and inform the newspapers that Stompie had not been killed and that he had last seen Stompie in Botswana if I am not mistaken.  These notes were confiscated, they are still in my possession and the advocate for the prosecution and myself, he was Advocate van Vuuren, together went and saw Mr Mabota and we had an interview with him.

MP PIGOU: Perhaps you could tell us whether Mr Mabota was cooperative, whether he was prepared to cooperate with your investigation?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: Mr Mabota was prepared to cooperate.  He confirmed that he had been sent by Mrs Mandela to phone the newspapers from outside the Republic.  He also made a statement with regard to this matter and this is still available.

MP PIGOU: Well I am hoping we can pick up with you later at the end of the day, all the information which is still available.  Could you tell me why Mr Mabota, or first of all whether the Attorney General decided to use Mr Mabota's evidence at that stage? Was there a decision by Mr von Lieres or Mr van Vuuren to utilise this information?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: No I don't know why his testimony was not utilised.

MP PIGOU: Are you aware Superintendent Dempsey of what happened to Temba Mabota?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I don't know whether it's the truth whether the information which was transferred to me about three days ago, but one of the investigating officers phoned me from Pietersburg and informed me that he suspected that Mr Mabota had been killed.

MP PIGOU: For the record Chair there is an amnesty application from Eugene de Kock in which he has applied for amnesty for killing Temba Mabota that was handed to him allegedly by Captain Jan Potgieter and that he was shot, executed and then blown up at Penge Mine following his incarceration at the hands of the police.
 Superintendent Dempsey could you perhaps explain to this Commission what steps were taken in connection with the Stompie Seipei case to establish whether the alibi which Mrs Mandela put forward that she was in Brandfort on the day of the 29th was indeed correct?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: Yes, I went to Brandfort where  - the first time I went down, I had contact with a certain Nora, I can't remember her surname, I had an appointment to discuss with her the matter.  When I arrived there they informed me that she had got on to a bus and had taken off for the Transkei. I thereafter, due to other matters which were outstanding as well with regard to Mrs Mandela I spoke to witnesses, I took sworn statements and I obtained a book in which minutes were normally taken, this is also still available.  According to the witnesses, the one was her previous manager, he was called Shakes, I think his surname was Tau and other people who served in the community or still serve or used to serve there, informed me that Mrs Mandela was not in Brandfort and had not been in Brandfort.  That was also given through to the attorney general and the advocate for the prosecution, Mr van Vuuren.

MP PIGOU: So just to clarify there were statements in the docket which from one name you remember Shakes, Mr Tau, that Mrs Mandela was not in Brandfort at that time, is that correct?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: Yes that is so.

MP PIGOU: Tell me, how soon after you learnt of Mrs Mandela's alibi did the police go and check to see whether that alibi was indeed a correct alibi?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: Mrs Mandela's alibi at the end of the Richardson case first came to the fore.  We thought it was going to be her alibi that she had been in Brandfort during those events and as soon as possible thereafter we did the necessary follow-up work and obtained the necessary statements.

MP PIGOU: So are you telling me Superintendent Dempsey that throughout 1989 no attempts were made to establish where Mrs Mandela was during the course of the three or four days at her house in Diepkloof at the end of December 1988, beginning of January 1989?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: The testimony which we had had been taken under oath, it was evidence given by the people who were held there, who told us that she had been there, and I believed it and accepted it and that is the way in which we dealt with it.

MP PIGOU: So just to clarify lastly on that particular point you are saying that you were satisfied with the one or however many statements you had taken from Brandfort that that would be enough evidence to hold up in court, is that correct?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: Yes I think so.  Were the people prepared to testify, that's the proviso.

MP PIGOU: In the light of perhaps you knowing that people might not have been prepared to testify could you tell me why further efforts weren't taken to perhaps try and locate more witnesses or other evidence to corroborate the information that you had already received?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: It was important to us to discover Mrs Mandela at home and on the scene, but during the investigation I experienced many problems.  As soon as one mentioned Mrs Mandela's name and the soccer team it was as good as switching off a light and the people just refused to testify.  One example in the case of Stompie it was important to try and determine where Mrs Mandela had been during that period.  We went to the consulting rooms of the late Dr Asvat and we there discovered a map which is also available, I think it is also on record which indicated that Mr Cebekhulu, on the 30th of December 1988 had been at the consulting rooms to consult Dr Asvat.  We asked Mrs Sisulu who had been the secretary to testify and she refused to do so.  The same applies in the case of Mr Sono as well as Mr Shabalala.
 After the advocate and I had consulted with them I would say on two occasions Mr Sono indicated that he was not prepared to testify against Mrs Mandela.  His reason was that he was afraid, scared.  The same in these other cases which had already been investigated fully where all the fingers pointed at Mrs Mandela that similar allegations had been made with regard - similar to what had happened in the case of Stompie and we also felt that those witnesses and those witnesses also after consultation refused to testify.  Mr Michael Siakamela also refused to testify.

MP PIGOU: Superintendent Dempsey did you receive, during the course of your investigations, any intelligence reports, information from the security branch in connection, apart from what we have already mentioned around Temba Mabota, but any other information from the security branch, from their sources, from their telephone tapping, from their surveillance about Mrs Mandela and the activities or the alleged activities of the Football Club?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: What I can remember is that I received information that members of the Soccer Club still visited Mrs Mandela's house.  I asked the security branch to assist me and keep the house under observation.  They also from time to time passed on reports to me which did not really assist me in my investigation.  (...indistinct) she had been in the Cape, in Bloemfontein etc.

MP PIGOU: So would you say, just lastly on this point whether the security branch were cooperative in terms of assisting you with their intelligence, or were they withholding information from you?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: My impression was that they had given their wholehearted cooperation in everything I asked.

MP PIGOU: Were you under any kind of other pressure Superintendent Dempsey with regards to for instance, political pressure, not to pursue this case as vigorously as you may not have wanted to and I am talking about both cases, Stompie and the Lolo Sono case?