Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-07

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to.  I would really like to follow-up on that question.  It has not been answered.  You would really have kicked for touch there.  May I just indicate that we put the same question to the ANC when they came here about Angola and Maharaj in his reply said, look, we did not provide any person with any representation whatsoever.  The people that we executed did not have even a modicum of legal representation let alone any sort of representation.  Now, of course, you are not MK, you are not ANC.  I would, if it is possible, expect a very, sort of direct question, answer.  Yes, we had the sophistication of a military tribunal, we did not have that.  People were executed if the commander was just satisfied that, in his view, the person had committed an offence that was calling for him to be executed, he just executed the person on the spot.
 It is an information gathering exercise we are engaged in.  It is not a trial of whether or not what you did was or was not correct in the circumstances.  So, please, do not kick for touch, comrade, Brigadier Mofokeng or ... (intervention).

UNKNOWN: When in Sesotho we say (not translated).  Maybe the simple explanation will be that, you know, when the man has died and brutally killed and all that, you will always see a smile or whatever, etcetera, but it does not mean that we are laughing at the, that unfortunate situation.  That must not be misinterpreted when I be seen grinning or smiling or whatever.
 Well, I will agree and I will say that a liberation movement is not that sophisticated as to have the machinery of that sort set.  That is why I say the political commissariat, the camp administration, the camp community, the army as a whole will sit down if we realise that there is the destabilisation.  We did indicate that there were a lot, there was a friction within the PAC given certain period of time which, basically, resulted to the death of some people.  Some of them very what, prominent figures, including the known ones like Sibeko, who was part of the leadership in that direction.  So, I must say that it will follow a direction or a process of trying to convince each other, taking into account that we belong together, we are eager to go down south to go and fight and we take into account that, basically, it could be frustration, it could be the slow place of the implementation of the programme to go home, etcetera and so on.
 That is why I will not go in terms of the numbers, but instead the limited numbers, because we felt it is not the solution.  If it is taken it must be taken after all avenues, more especially political processes within the army by the commissariat and everybody had conducted, an individual had exercised his or her rights.  I must say we did not have that.  That is why we said here that the commander is responsible in his capacity, as an authority to give directive or orders for such executions to take place.  So, it was not like the Supreme Court or whatever you call it around here with all the learned men around knowing the laws of the country, etcetera and so on, but it was rough and tough and painful situation.  
 I must say we did not have the, that kind of representation that everyone in this house will expect, will anticipate, will wish that to happen, given the nature, given the conditions and given the level of sophistication of the liberation movement which we cannot compare with the state, etcetera.  So, I must say that it was really painful, hard, harsh and I can put it that way, that far and I do not think I will satisfy any person, more especially, as long as the names are not yet submitted, because the details will be important to satisfy the Commission or the nation that we are addressing now.
 Is there any other comment again and before I wind up on this, is that in the oath of allegiance of the Pan Africanist Congress of Azania, in the oath of allegiance of the Azanian Peoples' Liberation Army, in the military code of discipline of the Azanian Peoples' Liberation Army it was indicated for an individual that he is joining as a volunteer and that he must take an oath that he will abide by the laws, the regulations of the organisation and I do not know whether there is a, our code around here, but what I am trying to say is that an individual who will join with the full understanding of the dangers that are involved, but he is doing whatever he or she will be doing at his own peril.
 So, we always indicate, we always train people to understand the disciplinary code, the oath of allegiance, the rules and regulations he or she must abide by.  So, it is catered for in the, in those documents. That is in broad terms.  Any other addition?

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: May I directly answer the question?  The fact of the matter is that we did not have an institution or an institutionalised mechanism of giving people an opportunity to defend themselves.  This is why in the document we are saying it was the commander's responsibility and this was the position of the military leadership and we took this decision purely on a security perspective, because we tried to ensure that whatever might have been done would be confined to those people who have done it.  Now, I am saying this because personally my capacity at the time, as military attache, the commander once confided to me about one of these activities.
 May I not get the follow-up questions at this point in time on this aspect, but the fact of the matter is that we did not have that mechanism.  So, it was the commander's prerogative to decide what action was supposed to be taken and who was supposed to do it.  Thank you.

MR GOOSEN: I have no further questions, Mr Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ilan Lax.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.  There is just one other aspect in terms of maintaining of discipline and so on.  We have heard about the difficult times, the sort of crisis, within which Apla and the PAC found itself in round about 78 and there are allegations that have been made that discipline was maintained in a particularly harsh manner at that time with floggings and beatings of people who were in dissent and so on.  Are you able to confirm that, that that, in fact, took place and was, in fact, rife at that time under those circumstances?

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: Yes, I will give you that one.

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: Well, I do not know where the Commission get that, but it must be made clear to the Commission that discipline is very decisive in the liberation army, like that of the Azanian Peoples' Liberation Army and it had to be maintained every time.  There were no harsh treatment meted against our people.  Physically, the basic, what they referred to as punishment, will be crawling, running and all that which the soldier is trained to take.  It was not the violation of the human rights as such.  I think, I do not know, I am a bit disturbed by hush, hush behind here.
 So, what I wanted to say that there were no torture, torturings or harsh treatment meted against our people in, during that crisis.  Is there any other comment on that?