Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

MS VAN DER WALT: When you make mention of Generals then you are referring to the AWB, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what was the purpose of this gathering at the game farm in Magaliesberge?

MR LE ROUX: As we spoke amongst each other and as the word went, it was because of the fact that General Viljoen, Constand Viljoen at that stage, told us that we will be responsible for the towns and the cities.

MS VAN DER WALT: But why in Magaliesberge?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[intervention] General Viljoen, he was a General in general terms?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, in the Defence Force.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did you gather at Magaliesberge?

MR LE ROUX: Magaliesberg was very central, it was centrally located.  It was almost between - no, I wouldn't say between but very close to Pretoria and the Witwatersrand area.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was the purpose then that if you had to react you would be close to the cities?

MR LE ROUX: I understood it in such a fashion, yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Chairperson, there is just an amendment which the applicant wants to bring in his application and it's on page 60, paragraph 19.  He will just rectify this in his evidence.  The version as it is, it came to light during consultation that it is not quite correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Which paragraph?

MS VAN DER WALT: Paragraph 19.
"At the game farm"
this is now paragraph 19.  Mr le Roux, do you have it in front of you?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: There were certain requests made, can you just explain exactly what happened there?

MR LE ROUX: On the game farm on the Saturday, we arrived there on the Friday evening, and the Saturday we got everything into order, the camping and where we slept in our sleeping bags in a big hall, and that evening Barnard arrived there ...[intervention]

MS VAN DER WALT: This is now the first applicant?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that's the first applicant.  Afterwards he went to Mr Fourie.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes?

MR LE ROUX: And after that those two came to me and they spoke, they were looking for somebody who knew the Johannesburg area very well.  But here I would just like to say something.  On Barnard's farm I met Barnard and he and I spoke, it was the first meeting I had with Barnard and he and I talked there and because I knew that he worked at head office and he was highly regarded I made myself available to him with regard to any task he wanted done.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes, and on the game farm he came to you?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, on the game farm he came to me and he said that I should go with him.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you ask you whether you knew Johannesburg very well?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage he already knew because we already discussed it.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what else did he request of you?

MR LE ROUX: He also asked who knew explosives well.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes?

MR LE ROUX: I always knew that Koekemoer knew explosives well because of the camp we did together at Klokkelaan.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did he know explosives well

MR LE ROUX: Because he was a blaster on the mines.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can we just go back then to Barnard who is the first applicant.  You said that he was involved with head office?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what was his attitude or rather his relationship with Eugene Terreblanche?

MR LE ROUX: They had very close contact, and what I knew was that he was hand in hand with Terreblanche.

MS VAN DER WALT: And Myburgh, the second applicant as well?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Mr Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And Mr Myburgh was also involved with head office?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: During that time with the meeting at Barnard's farm, did you see him as your superior?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage I heard stories that he had a very high rank within the AWB but he never carried it around with him.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then, where did you go then?  When he arrived at the game farm did you leave with him?

MR LE ROUX: We took Koekemoer, me, him and Koekemoer and we went outside and there was a little golf car.  We took some of the explosives out of the golf car and transferred it into my vehicle and the three of us together with the explosives went to Koesterfontein.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now you ...[intervention]

MR LE ROUX: I'm not sure if Myburgh was with us, I think Myburgh was with us.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said the pipe bombs were taken out of J J Venter's vehicle.  During consultation you also mentioned that you were not sure whether it was Venter's or van Coller's vehicle.

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I wasn't sure, all I knew was that it was a golf car.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said those explosive were put into the vehicle or was it pipe bombs?

MR LE ROUX: There were several pipe bombs and also normal explosives.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now these pipe bombs, were they already fabricated?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, they were already fabricated.

MS VAN DER WALT: And where did you go then?

MR LE ROUX: We went to Koesterfontein.

MS VAN DER WALT: What is Koesterfontein, can you explain?

MR LE ROUX: Koesterfontein is the farm of Koper Myburgh's father.

MS VAN DER WALT: And?

MR LE ROUX: The farm itself had buildings, there was an old building which was is on one side, an old house and it served as a workshop for the house.  His mother and father never got there, they were never involved. They were not aware of what we were doing.
	We stopped at the back and there we unloaded the explosives and took them into the workshop and the storage rooms.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you know - when you were at the game farm and this request was made to you to accompany him, did you know what you were going to do?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage Barnard informed us that we were going to have something to do with bombs, we did not know exactly what but we knew we were going to plan bombs.  Also when we saw the explosives being off-loaded we realised that.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did you believe, these bombs that you were making, under whose instruction were you doing this?

MR LE ROUX: I believed it was an instruction of the AWB and let's say the heads of the AWB, the chiefs.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you talk about the chiefs, is that mentioned in AWB terms, the Staff Generals?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Please explain to the Committee what you understood with regards the Staff Generals.

MR LE ROUX: The AWB has a leader and beneath him there would the Staff Generals and they are the ones responsible for the decisions and the normal proceedings of the AWB.  Some of them are attributed certain tasks, for example one General would be in charge of the Ystergarde.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who was that?

MR LE ROUX: That was Nico Prinsloo.

MS VAN DER WALT: And it was Nico Prinsloo who was also involved with this?

MR LE ROUX: That's correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: When you arrived at Koesterfontein, what happened there?

MR LE ROUX: It was the Saturday evening and Barnard ...[intervention]

MS VAN DER WALT: Can we just get a date, the 23rd of April 1994, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.  Barnard informed us that we were going to build a bomb and in the Audi car that he had there.  There was an Audi car of a Mr Breytenbach which he had there.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why would this bomb be built into Mr Breytenbach's car?

MR LE ROUX: The AWB at that stage I heard would steal vehicles in order to prepare car bombs and to prepare these vehicles in certain places and there wasn't any other vehicle available, the only ones we had were our own and that of Mr Breytenbach.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now during the trial there was also evidence given that Mr Barnard borrowed this car from Breytenbach and then went with that car to Koesterfontein, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.  What I understood, according to Barnard, was that Breytenbach basically gave him the car to do with it whatever he wanted to.