Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-29

JOHANNES MNISI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Mr Mnisi, is it correct, you have made an application for amnesty and that your application appears at pages 97 to 102 of bundle A1?  The bundle is in front of you, if you can just check that.

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: You have ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before we proceed, Mr Berger, Mr Mnisi, are you also known as Mr Molefe?

JOHANNES MNISI: My name is Johannes Mnisi, my MK name is Victor Molefe.

CHAIRPERSON: So you used you, in making the application you used your MK name, but you confirm that that's your application?

JOHANNES MNISI: I used Johannes Mnisi.  If you can look on my statement at the end, just towards the end, I signed my real name.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I'm looking at page 97 Mr Berger, my document says Molefe.

MR BERGER: Yes, Chairperson, what Mr Mnisi is referring to is, if you have a look at page 102, he has signed the application as J Mnisi.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  No I was just clearing it up for record purposes, I'm not disputing that this is his application, but I just wanted to clear that confusion.

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: So for the record Mr Mnisi, you confirm that the document from page 97 to 102 is indeed your application for amnesty?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes, that's true.

MR BERGER: You have also made a statement which has been handed in as Exhibit B3.  Do you confirm that that is your statement?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: And in that statement, in paragraph 1, you say that your MK name was Vic or Victor and that you were also known as Johannes Molefe, is that correct?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: Now, your application for amnesty deals with a number of different operations.  You have already given evidence on another operation, the Voortrekkerhoogte operation, in another hearing, is that correct?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: As well as the Pretoria Church Street car bomb.  Am I correct?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: Now, you were a member of Special Operations from 1980 until 1991?

JUDGE PILLAY: Can you just tell us, what are you applying for amnesty for firstly?

JOHANNES MNISI: In this hearing I participated in giving Mr McBride the material.

JUDGE PILLAY: For what?  That's why I'm asking, which offences are you applying for?  Or Mr Berger, maybe you can help us.

MR BERGER: Judge, for the purposes of this application, it's Mr Mnisi's interaction between himself and the unit operated by Mr McBride and Mr Webster and in particular the provision of material.

JUDGE PILLAY: What offence are we talking about?

MR BERGER: We're talking about a co-conspirator in the murder of certain people, attempted murder of other people, the delict of...

JUDGE PILLAY: I'm just confining myself to offences.  You say murder and attempted murder.  Any particular murder you're talking about, or murders?

MR BERGER: Well in particular, it would be the car bomb placed outside the Why Not Bar.

JUDGE PILLAY: And attempted murders in respect of the same incident.

MR BERGER: The same people, yes.

JUDGE PILLAY: Was that all?  Anything else?

MR BERGER: Judge, it doesn't appear that there are any more specific incidents as far as this hearing is concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Berger, you put a question and I didn't catch the dates.  You said that he was a member of Special Operations from?

MR BERGER: From 1980 until 1991.  Thank you Chair.  Is that correct, Mr Mnisi?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: The detail in paragraph 2 of your statement, how you moved from Mozambique to Zambia and how you travelled between Botswana and Zambia in the execution of your duties.

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: Could you briefly elaborate for the Committee, what work you did during that period, particularly the work that you did in moving between Botswana and Zambia?

JOHANNES MNISI: At first I was based at Mozambique.  I left Mozambique in 1984.  I went to Zambia.  This was after the Nkomati Accord.  I was working between Zambia and Botswana.  I was the co-ordinator, I was sending messages and other materials which were used.  I was transporting this between Zambia and Botswana.  We had people in Botswana, Tommy and Vusi.  I used to meet them there when I left Zambia.  The person who used to send me to Botswana was Rashid.

MR BERGER: Can I ask you just to speak a little louder and a little slower?  The person that you used to report to was Rashid?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: And that would have been in Zambia, is that correct?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: And that was until July/August 1987?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes.

MR BERGER: After that, comrade Rashid was promoted and then to whom did you report?

JOHANNES MNISI: Lester Dumakude, Kgatle ...(indistinct).

MR BERGER: And when you spoke about Vusi, who was that?

JOHANNES MNISI: Vusi was someone who was working with Tommy in Botswana, he was also a comrade.

CHAIRPERSON: That's Mr Pule?

JOHANNES MNISI: Pule.

MR BERGER: How did you assist the comrades in Botswana?

JOHANNES MNISI: I used to work with them when I was in Botswana.

MR BERGER: Doing what?

JOHANNES MNISI: Most of the time when I arrived there, I would find that people were there with them and I would meet these people and sometimes I would go there to give them money.  I would bring money to Botswana and sometimes I will arrange transportation for them.

MR BERGER: Now, when did you meet, if you can remember, comrade Robert or comrade Gordon for the first time?

JOHANNES MNISI: comrade Gordon I met him in Zambia.  I don't remember which year, but he was the first person I met and comrade McBride, I met him later and also I can't remember the year.

MR BERGER: Now, there is an occasion that you refer to in paragraph 4 of Exhibit B3, when you assisted in packing certain materials into comrade Robert's vehicle.  What I want to ask you is, was that the first time that you had met comrade Robert, or had you met him prior to that?

JOHANNES MNISI: It wasn't the first time.  I don't remember how many times I met him before I met him there.  I think meeting him there was the last time.  The person who was supposed to work with Vusi, was Tommy and Tommy had been arrested at the time, therefore I was assisting Vusi to pack the material in comrade McBride's car.

MR BERGER: Before we get to that incident, on the previous occasions when you had met comrade Robert, had this been in Botswana?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes.

MR BERGER: And how had you assisted comrade Robert on those occasions, if at all?

JOHANNES MNISI: Before I don't remember assisting him because the comrades who were in Botswana, used to assist him, that was Lester and Pule.

MR BERGER: Alright.  And on this particular occasion, this is now in June of 1986, is it your evidence that you specifically assisted comrade Robert because comrade Chris, that's Mr Dumakude had been arrested?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Now what do you remember of this incident when you assisted comrade Robert?  Do you remember why you were assisting him or what you were assisting him with?

JOHANNES MNISI: I was in fact helping Pule to pack the material in comrade McBride's car because comrade McBride had a job to do inside the country.

MR BERGER: Who told you that?

JOHANNES MNISI: It was a known thing to us, we knew that if we give someone material, that person was supposed to come back to the country and do a certain job, even though we did not know what type of a job, but we knew that.

MR BERGER: Who gave you the instructions to pack the material into comrade Robert's vehicle?