Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MR LAX: I've just asked you whether each unit in Zone 12 had about 18 to 20, you confirmed that.

JOHN RADEBE: I would not be able to explain that.

MR LAX: If you'll just bear with me Chair, I just want to make a little note here.  You said that the reason these people were killed was that they played a role in the killing of your comrades and they were involved in the spying of your comrades for the IFP.  Did I hear that correctly?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that's correct.

MR LAX: And if I understand you correctly they were doing this by passing information to the hostel residents, is that right?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: Is it not true that there were many township people who fled the township and went and lived in the hostels?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: So why would two women who were living in the township have to go and give information to the hostels, when there were people already in the hostels who were from the townships, who understood the SDU's, who knew a lot about them, and who were actively engaged in killing your members?  Why would these two young girls have to go and do that, when there were already people who were doing that, famous people who were doing that?

JOHN RADEBE: I would not know why.

MR LAX: You know about Getisi and his gang and all his people.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes I do.

MR LAX: Weren't they involved in attacking your people?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes they did.

MR LAX: Weren't they ex-township people?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, they were staying in the township before.

MR LAX: Now you said something very interesting later on in your evidence.  Towards the very end of your evidence you spoke about these ladies also being involved in giving information to the police.

JOHN RADEBE: Well, that's the first time we've heard that bit of evidence.  Where did you learn that from?

JOHN RADEBE: The comrades were discussing about that generally because if, if you were a member of Inkatha you aligned yourself with the police.  Because whatever the comrades were doing it would be reported to the police.

MR LAX: You had no personal knowledge of that, did you?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: It was just a general rumour.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, I agree with you.

MR LAX: How come then Mr Mkhwanazi didn't say anything about the involvement of this woman giving information to the police?

JOHN RADEBE: I don't know sir.

MR LAX: Now, you also went on to mention Boipatong.  What's the relevant of Boipatong to this killing?

JOHN RADEBE: The information we received from the comrades from Boipatong is that young people would knock at the doors.  When the doors are opened the people, the occupants of those houses, would be shot.

MR LAX: You heard no such information that these two women were involved in that issue.  This was just a general statement, as you've put it to us here.  Isn't that so?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that was a general information we received.

MR LAX: But you see that's not what Mkhwanazi told us.  He said he questioned these people and they admitted it, that they were involved in Boipatong.  You never heard that before, have you?

JOHN RADEBE: He told me after I shot Hapile Ndumo.

MR LAX: Well then why did you not say so now before I put it to you?

JOHN RADEBE: I thought the Committee would ask me in the process.

MR LAX: I asked you what you knew about Boipatong, you said nothing about Mkhwanazi having told you anything.  All you knew was that it was general information, but you didn't have any information that linked these two girls to that information.  I asked you very carefully about that, and you agreed with me.

JOHN RADEBE: I made a mistake because that was the issue I knew of this time.

MR LAX: So there were a whole range of reasons why you killed them.  One you thought they were Inkatha, right?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: Two you thought they were spying on township people for Inkatha, correct?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: Three you thought they were involved in the deaths of your members and other innocent people by Inkatha.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: Four, you thought they were spying on the police, spying for the police and therefore giving them information which led to the arrest and killing of your members.

JOHN RADEBE: You talked about spying late, earlier.

MR LAX: Well, there are two separate forms of spying.  One is for the Inkatha people themselves, and one is for the police.  There are two separate kinds of spying her.

JOHN RADEBE: We regarded the police and Inkatha as one thing.  Because Inkatha was injuring people, they would use the Caspers together with the police having guards, therefore we saw them as one.

CHAIRPERSON: In your mind the fact that the police were perceived by your community to be collaborating with the IFP, you did not draw a very fine distinction between the two.  When you speak of spying for the IFP and you speak of spying for the police, you also don't necessarily are drawing a distinction?

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: We know that the time is twenty to two, and I think Mr Radebe would probably want to have some lunch.  We can't allow a witness to give evidence with a hungry stomach.  I therefore suggest that we adjourn for lunch and we reconvene at five past two.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

JOHN RADEBE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Questions were still being put to you by Mr Lax.  He will continue to do so.  Mr Lax.

MR LAX: Mr Radebe did you know these two women?

JOHN RADEBE: I did not.

MR LAX: You didn't know where they lived or what their whereabouts were?

JOHN RADEBE: I did not know their whereabouts.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAX

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lax.  Ms Bosman, do you have any questions to put to Mr Radebe?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.  Mr Radebe in your evidence you said that on the 15th of August 1993 when Letsolo and Mkhwanazi arrived, you accompanied them to Zone 7.  Where were you when they arrived?

JOHN RADEBE: I was at Small Farms.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Interpreter could you please just repeat that for me, I didn't have my headphones on.

INTERPRETER: I was at Small Farms.

ADV BOSMAN: Now is, Mr Mkhwanazi said different to what you are saying.  He said that they sort of bumped into you and you insisted that they should accompany you.  How do you explain this different version.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, I did.

ADV BOSMAN: Now, what happened now, did you accompany them or did they accompany you?

JOHN RADEBE: They accompanied me to stop at the tavern.

ADV BOSMAN: What were you going to do at Zone 7?

JOHN RADEBE: They told me that they were going to visit other comrades, then I told them that I am going there.

ADV BOSMAN: And what did you intend doing there?  I mean, you must have had something in mind when you accompanied them.

JOHN RADEBE: There was nothing specific which I was going to do.

ADV BOSMAN: How many guns did you have with you?

CHAIRPERSON: A questions was put to you, what you were going to do at Zone 7, what you were going to do at Zone 7, and you responded by saying Ntjulo and Mkhwanazi told you that they were going to see other comrades.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So they didn't go with you because they were accompanying you, you were accompanying them to see and visit their comrades in Zone 7.  Is that what you're saying?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, I said so.

CHAIRPERSON: As it has already been put to you, that is not the version of Mr Mkhwanazi.  Mr Mkhwanazi says that you requested them to accompany you to Zone 7 because you had to collect your money from somebody who was owing you.  What do you say to that version given by Mr Mkhwanazi?

JOHN RADEBE: The person who was supposed to give me money was the one we were going to at the tavern, not in Zone 7.  The person was at the tavern not in Zone 7.