Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR BERGER: My learned friend, Mr Tipp will ask questions.

MR TIPP: Mr Maphanga, can I clarify first of all, at a certain stage of your evidence today you said that the last time that you were conscious was when you got off the train at Park Station, is that correct?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: Yes that is correct.

MR TIPP: Thereafter you were asked some questions concerning how the groups move and that they move with an Induna in front and that the group follows the Induna, do you remember being asked those questions?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: Yes, that's what I said.

MR TIPP: Did you intend your answers to those questions to refer generally to how groups move or to refer to the way in which you moved on that day?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: I have said what I said and I won't change it.

MR TIPP: Mr Maphanga I understand you've said what you've said, I'm just trying to clarify whether you have some recollection of moving behind your Induna, away from Park Station or whether you don't?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: Yes, we're moving behind the Induna, the leader.

MR TIPP: Would you please tell the Committee what you remember about that movement please, from the time that you left Park Station and I'm going to ask you a few particular questions to make it easier for you.  Who was the Induna who was leading the group in which you moved?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: It was Mbatha.

MR TIPP: Can you tell us how many groups moved away from Park Station?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: I don't know, quite many.

MR TIPP: Which route did you follow?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: The last time I recall was when I was getting off the train at Park Station, then I lost consciousness.

MR TIPP: Mr Maphanga, I don't want to ask you unnecessary questions, can we take it then that you have no memory at all of how you moved away from Park Station until the time that you were injured?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: I don't remember anything.  All I remember is when we got off and left that's it.  From there I was in hospital, I did not even know the cause whey I was there.

MR TIPP: Mr Maphanga, I'm going to ask you a couple of questions about the meeting that you say was addressed by Induna Mbatha at Mansfield Hostel.

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: Yes, proceed.

MR TIPP: Would you tell us please, how many meetings you attended that were addressed by Induna Mbatha?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: With regard to?

MR TIPP: With regard to the meeting that you wanted to attend in Johannesburg.

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: I went to Pretoria, I went to Ulundi, I went to other places until the day when I met my fate.

MR TIPP: Mr Maphanga, I'm just asking you about meetings at which there was discussion concerning the - what you've called the meeting that the King wanted held at Library Gardens on the 28th of March.  Can you tell us please how many meetings you attended in relation to that ...(indistinct)?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: We were shot at and dispersed, we never even could meet.  We did not even hear why the meeting was called.

MR TIPP: Mr Maphanga, let us just deal with the situation at Mansfield at the hostel where you were living at the time, before that day of the 28th of March, are you with me, Mr Maphanga?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: About?  I did not hear quite well.

MR TIPP: Let me repeat it.  When your advocate, Mr Pretorius was asking you questions, he asked you when you heard of the meeting that was to be held and you replied that you heard about it at Mansfield, do you remember that?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: Yes, that's what I said.

MR TIPP: Now, I'm going to ask you questions only about that meeting at Mansfield, do you follow me?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: Yes.

MR TIPP: Was it only Induna Mbatha who addressed that meeting at Mansfield?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: I don't know, I was at work, I just heard everybody talking.

MR TIPP: Am I to understand then that you never attended any meeting at Mansfield at which there was discussion about the King's Imbizo to be held at Library Gardens?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: I wouldn't have missed that kind of meeting because that's our key, who called us?

JUDGE NGCOBO: Excuse me, sir, I'm trying to listen to the Zulu and the translation, but I just seem to get lost somewhere, I can't hear.  Then I guess there's something wrong with this.

UNKNOWN: Mr Tipp, may I interpose and probably clarify a few issues to Mr Maphanga so that you can be on the same page.

MR TIPP: I would be grateful.

UNKNOWN: Do you remember Mr Maphanga, you tendered evidence to this Commission when Mr Pretorius, whose you attorney, asked you as to how did you get to that meeting, that is the Library Gardens Meeting?  In your evidence you said you heard from Mr Mbatha, whose an Induna.

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: Yes.

UNKNOWN: This attorney is trying to establish something, he's asking you questions with regard to the meeting that was called by Mr Mbatha, where you were told together with others who had attended that meeting, about the meeting that was called by the King.

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: Can you ever remember or recall the people you meet the previous year?

UNKNOWN: Please listen to the questions, all I was trying to gather here was for you to be on the same wavelength with the line of questioning.  If there are things that you cannot recall, you are at liberty to state this to the Commission, there is nothing wrong whatsoever by saying so, that you don't have an clear recollection, but all we're asking from you is to listen carefully and answer when you can.

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: I will answer what I recall, but if I don't recall anything, I won't answer or I will say so.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chair.

MR TIPP: Thank you learned Committee member.   Mr Maphanga, on that basis you tell us what you can recall, I'm asking you then about the meeting that Induna Imbatha addressed you at.  Now, can you tell us please what Induna Imbatha told you about the purpose of the meeting that was to be held at Library Gardens?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: He said we have been called by the King and that was the end, or he stopped there.

MR TIPP: Did he explain to you what it was that the King was concerned about?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: He did not explain.

MR TIPP: Did he indicate whether anybody would be addressing that meeting at Library Gardens?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: It was the King who was going to address the meeting.

MR TIPP: Was anything said at that meeting at Mansfield, Mr Maphanga, concerning the ANC?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: Nothing.

MR TIPP: Do you remember whether anything was said at that meeting at Mansfield about the election that was going to be held in the following month?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: Nothing was said.

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, would you just grant me a moment?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, in consequence of Mr Maphanga's evident difficulty with recalling the events of the day, of recalling any detail in respect of the preceding organising events that would be or assistance to the Committee, although we don't in any way agree with the general trend of what Mr Maphanga has expressed here, we certainly understand his difficulties, we don't agree with it, but we believe with respect that we would advance the work of the Committee by moving on to another witness.  We in those circumstances propose not to tax Mr Maphanga any further.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that you learned when you were in hospital that you were injured, is that correct?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did anybody tell you how you were injured?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: Yes, they told me as to how I was injured.

CHAIRPERSON: And did they tell you where you were injured?

SILWAYIPHI ALFRED MAPHANGA: They told me that I was shot at the meeting down there at the Library Gardens.