Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

MAUREEN VENTER: No other reason that I can think of.

GEORGE BIZOS: Had you ever discussed Mr Hani with your son?

MAUREEN VENTER: No not at any stage did I discuss Mr Hani with my son or any of my other children.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now what was your reaction when you heard about Mr Hani's murder?

MAUREEN VENTER: My reaction was when my son told me and I told him "Are you sure, are you referring to Mr Chris Hani, are you sure he had been shot?" and he told me "yes mother."  I don't know whether I should have had any other reaction.  That was my reaction.

GEORGE BIZOS: One of disbelief?

MAUREEN VENTER: No, I can't say it was a reaction of disbelief, I can't say what type of reaction it was, it was just a normal reaction.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, perhaps it's my fault, what I meant by disbelief, not that you did not believe your son but you couldn't really believe why this had happened at all?

MAUREEN VENTER: No I can't answer that question, I can't say it was unbelievable that that had happened, I've told you what my reaction was, I've told my son that - had he really been shot?  Was it Mr Chris Hani? - and that is what I had said.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you carry this news over to your husband?

MAUREEN VENTER: Yes I told my husband, Mr Clive and Mrs Clive Derby-Lewis.

GEORGE BIZOS: And what was the reaction of each one of them please?  Each one, let's start with your husband, what was your husband's reaction?

MAUREEN VENTER: At that stage it was not so important for me. I've conveyed news to them, they were on their way out, they were in a hurry at that stage because Mrs Derby-Lewis had people, she was expecting people at her house and I did not pay attention to their reaction and that is all I can say.  Afterwards they left, we said goodbye and they went home.

GEORGE BIZOS: So, were they shocked to hear the news?

MAUREEN VENTER: If I have to say they were shocked or they were not shocked, I can't say because I did not pay any notice.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were they surprised?

MAUREEN VENTER: Even to say whether they were surprised I can't do that because I did not view it from that point of view, it was not so important for me.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now I want to read to you and you'll have a copy soon.  I'm sorry I'm not holding it back deliberately but you can have a look at it because we only have one copy.  I want to read to you paragraph 6 of your statement:  "I was very surprised and told the news to my husband as well as Mr and Mrs Clive Derby-Lewis.  According to me they were all extremely surprised to hear what had happened."  Now have a look at your statement, paragraph 6 and 7 on page 2 and tell us whether you initialled the bottom of the page and whether it's the document on which your signature appears, Madame.

MAUREEN VENTER: Yes, it is my signature.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you did sign that, those two statements that I read out in paragraph 6 and 7 to you?

MAUREEN VENTER: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now why would you have told the police on the 22nd April 1993 that your husband and Mr and Mrs Derby-Lewis were 'uiters' - I don't want to give a wrong interpretation - extremely surprised 'uiters verbaas'?

MAUREEN VENTER: I would say at that stage, you are asking me a question five years after the fact, at that stage it was still quite fresh in my memory and I could make certain inferences. If I have to think back to the episode at this stage it is quite difficult to draw accurate conclusions, but if I had made a statement directly after the event, it would have been a lot fresher and clearer in my memory but after five years I don't believe it would be so clear in my memory.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now that your memory has been refreshed, Madame, can you please give us some idea how Mr Derby-Lewis in particular expressed this extreme surprise?

MAUREEN VENTER: I don't believe Mr Derby-Lewis made any statement at that point.  If I can remember correctly, in fact I recall as we walked out, now that you've said my memory has been refreshed, if one really thinks about it, I can recall that we walked outside and Gay discussed Sportron a bit further with me and my husband and Clive walked to the car. They climbed into the car, they greeted us and they left.  A statement which might have been made - I couldn't say it to you because then I would be lying and I can't made a definite statement about anything that might have been said.  It is impossible for me to make such a statement.  Surprise perhaps even, but what does that mean?  It could be extreme surprise, it could be something like "oh how terrible" it could have been anything.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes well you used the words and I asked you what you meant by it but let's leave it there for the moment.  Do you recall whether Mr Derby-Lewis said the following:  "Don't worry, it's not that weapon."?

MAUREEN VENTER: I would have to think back very carefully if I wanted to confirm such a thing, I would have to think very carefully.

GEORGE BIZOS: Take your time and let's have an answer.

MAUREEN VENTER: It is a very difficult question which you have posed to me because I cannot honestly tell you that I can remember clearly.  With the court case - whether something filtered through - whether I heard something, whether I read something, I can vaguely perhaps remember something like that but if I had to expressly tell you that I can remember it or that I didn't read it or that I can't remember it, I would once again have to say that this is five years ago and that it is not possible for me.  I could take a guess but that would not be correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, having regard to the time that you took in order to give the answer and a number of possibilities that you gave in your answer, would you agree that you are unable to deny that that is what Mr Derby-Lewis said?

MAUREEN VENTER: You're saying - or could you please repeat the question?

GEORGE BIZOS: It was a simple question - you can't say whether -you can't deny whether or not Mr Derby-Lewis used those words?

MAUREEN VENTER: No unfortunately not with conviction.

GEORGE BIZOS: You can't deny it with conviction?

MAUREEN VENTER: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman - to give us an opportunity to copy the documents?

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the adjournment and resume at 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
...[inaudible] where was it kept in your house?

MAUREEN VENTER: I don't know where my husband kept it, I think it was with his other weapons.

GEORGE BIZOS: Sorry I didn't hear the last bit of your evidence, where did you say it was?

MAUREEN VENTER: It was possibly kept by my husband among his other hand weapons which he owned.

GEORGE BIZOS: And where were they kept?

MAUREEN VENTER: It was kept in a safe in the house.

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't you have access to that safe for your own protection in case something untoward happened?

MAUREEN VENTER: No I did not access to it because I didn't have any interest in weapons.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did your husband ever express any discomfort at having an unlicensed firearm at the house?

MAUREEN VENTER: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you know that there was an unlicensed firearm in the house all these years?

MAUREEN VENTER: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't you feel uncomfortable about it?

MAUREEN VENTER: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: And if Mr Derby-Lewis hadn't asked for it specifically it would have remained there to this day?

MAUREEN VENTER: That's possible, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, did your husband ever tell you that he was collecting arms for any future event when they may be required?

MAUREEN VENTER: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: You know Mr Taylor well?

MAUREEN VENTER: I don't know him very well on a personal level.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you know his wife?

MAUREEN VENTER: I met his wife yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there any close contact between the four of you at any time?

MAUREEN VENTER: No.