Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

MR HOCKEY: Now in your statement, can I just refer you to page 8 of bundle B, about the middle of the page you said that
"At the time of my detention Brig Engelbrecht, along with Brig van Rensburg paid a visit to me."
then you say further:
"Brig Engelbrecht told me during the visit that I knew that I had to keep quiet.  He said that this was the message that he received to convey to me."
Now this "aanhouding" that you're talking about here was your Section 29 "aandhouding", detention.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, Sir.

MR HOCKEY: So why would you say that in your statement?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Because those are the facts, that's what took place.

MR HOCKEY: So are you saying now that he did visit you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: He wasn't involved with the CCB, not one of those persons, I have maintained all the time.

MR HOCKEY: Is this the Krappies Engelbrecht that you were talking about?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's correct.

MR HOCKEY: But you said, Sir, that Krappies Engelbrecht did not visit you while you were in detention.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: No, he said he did visit him together with Van Rensburg and then he said that you'll recall the evidence where he indicated he'd been ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR HOCKEY: I beg your pardon.
	Who is Marius?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I suspect that Marius is the codename for Heiner Muller.  I think so.  It was a Regional Manager who had a problem with Joe.  I think so, I'm speaking under correction.

MR HOCKEY: It's not Pieter Botes?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I mean Pieter Botes, I'm sorry, that's what I meant.  I beg your pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: And is Pieter Botes a Regional Manager who had a problem with Verster?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Correct.

MR HOCKEY: And is it correct that his offices were bombed?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I basically heard that in the corridors, I suspect that there was an incident like that, yes.

MR HOCKEY: Now who executed that bombing?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I speculated.

MR HOCKEY: But it's also a fact that could easily be established, whether it was true or not?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, very easily.

MR HOCKEY: And you say in your statement that you, well you insinuate that it's possibly the CCB.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I'm insinuating that it could possibly be on the instruction of Mr Verster.

MR HOCKEY: When you were asked to assist with the bombing of the Athlone Early Learning Centre, and you testified that only on your way to Cape Town, while driving to Cape Town did they, did Mr van Zyl really tell you what the purpose behind this project was.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: He gave a more detailed report to me.

MR HOCKEY: When did Mr van Zyl decide, tell you that you were going to go with to actually detonate the bomb?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: At no stage did he tell me that.

MR HOCKEY: He must have told you at some stage.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I was never supposed to detonate it, it wasn't my job.

MR HOCKEY: He must have told you at some stage that you're going to go with to detonate the bomb.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: The evidence states expressly that the man tried to activate the bomb, he couldn't succeed, he gave the mechanism to me and I detonated the bomb.

MR HOCKEY: Just listen carefully to what I say.  When did Mr van Zyl tell you that you were going to go with, not you specifically, but you're going to go with to see when the bomb was going to be detonated?  You were going to go with to the scene where the bomb was going to be detonated?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: We discussed this during our journey.

CHAIRPERSON: The journey from Jo'burg to Cape Town?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: But you have asked me two different questions, what was the first?

MR HOCKEY: Maybe you didn't understand me.  I think you understand now what I mean.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, you've put two completely different questions.

CHAIRPERSON: The question, correct me if I'm wrong Mr Hockey, is that when did Van Zyl tell you that you will actually go to scene, the Early Learning Centre premises?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: We decided that during our trip.  Mr Hockey actually asked the first question: when was I informed that I was actually going to detonate the mine.

CHAIRPERSON: I think he changed it then to when you decided to go the premises.

MR HOCKEY: Ja, I think we understand each other now.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR HOCKEY: I mean when were you informed that you were actually going to the scene.  That you say you discussed on the trip.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR HOCKEY: Were you always under that impression that that was going to happen?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: The instruction was initially that Mr Isgak Hardien would detonate the limpet mine independently and would report back to us at a later stage.

MR HOCKEY: ...(indistinct - no microphone) you said that only after Mr van Zyl, or you handed the bomb over to Gakkie, did Mr van Zyl decide to go to the scene to see to the detonation of the bomb.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, it was in the preamble to it, it was discussed, no definite decision had been taken yet.  Once the decision had been taken with a hundred percent certainty, I'm not sure when that happened, but he conveyed his fears to me, indicating that he wanted to see where the bomb would be placed, in which room it would be placed.  Those were the fears that he shared with me, but the actual decision, he might have taken that decision five minutes before Hardien's departure, I cannot tell you with certainty.

MR HOCKEY: So now you're saying that decision was not made on the trip?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I'm saying that it was discussed, it was an option, I wouldn't say that it was one hundred percent definitely decided.

MR HOCKEY: After you gave the bomb to Mr Hardien, he met you again the evening.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's correct.

MR HOCKEY: Initially the plan was just to hand over to him the detonation device.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: But we had already decided that.

MR HOCKEY: Initially, initially that would have been the plan.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, that's correct.

MR HOCKEY: But in the meantime you decided that you were going to go with to the scene.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR HOCKEY: Now Adv Bizos asked you, or said that you were trying to make this Section 29 statement as exculpatory as possible and what would have made it lighter for you was if you had said in this statement that you made sure that there were no people in the building at the time, however you did not state that in your statement, in your Section 29 statement.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR HOCKEY: Was there any reason for that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: We have debated this point, I said that I told the investigating team that it was my purpose to activate or arm the bomb and the rest of the project was Mr van Zyl's responsibility.

MR HOCKEY: But you certainly had the opportunity to say that you made sure that there were no people in the building.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I don't understand why it isn't noted there, I accept that I must have said it to the investigating team, I don't know why it isn't noted.

MR HOCKEY: The factual situation is according to your evidence, that Mr Hardien went inside the building and came back to say that there are no people, or rather, that there are still people in the building.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That was after we were busy with the observation and he was picked up at the hotel.

MR HOCKEY: And in your Section 29 statement you said that Mr Hardien left at one stage, but not that he went to go look whether the building was empty, but he went in order to detonate the bomb.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I have noted what you have said.