Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission, as I've already said the football club and the things internally, the local things around Winnie Mandela and the football club, these were responsibility of the area office. Louis Watermeyer said yesterday that it was his responsibility, he did that. I was interested in the MK members from her house to Lusaka, that's whom I was interested in.

MR RICHARDS: Thank you.  So that means you don't have any particular opinions about the football club or no knowledge about it, which is it?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Negative.

MR RICHARDS: Who in the entire security apparatus of Soweto, would be charged with working out the answers to my questions? You must know the answer to that.

ANTON PRETORIUS: I think General Ig Coetzee and General Tokkie Nienaber, they are my commanders.

MR RICHARDS: So that means that the questions I'm asking you should be addressed to them? Is that your answer?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I think they will give the same type of answers that Watermeyer was primarily responsible for his area, he and his whole section under whom there was a commanding structure, that is true.

MR RICHARDS: We spent two days hearing that no-one knows the answers to the questions and that is why Mr Vally seems to be getting rather frustrated with good reasons.  No further questions.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you Mr Richards. Whose next?

MR KEMP: I have no questions thank you.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Makanjee?

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you Madame Chair. I'm Sanjay Makanjee, acting on behalf the Sepei and Asvat families. I'll make my questions brief and I hope that you make your answers as brief as my questions are. I just want to clarify something. You stated that you were involved in high level intelligence gathering, is that correct?

ANTON PRETORIUS: That's correct.

MR MAKANJEE: Okay, I'll come back to that.  What I want to know is, were you present at the raid on Mrs Madikizela Mandela's house as an explosives expert or as head of the Intelligence gathering unit?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I was there as both.

MR MAKANJEE: Would you regard the raid on Mrs Madikizela Mandela's house to investigate the Stompie Sepei case as a high level task?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I think so, not of the Security Branch but because of the Murder and Robbery operation. As far as I know the Security Branch had only been asked for assistance and that is why we were there.

MR MAKANJEE: No, you're not following me. I'm saying, you as the head of the Intelligence gathering unit, I mean surely there were other members of your unit who could have been there but the impression I get is that you were more involved than you lead us to believe now. Your presence there was obviously not just to oversee the raid or to help in the raid? That's the question I'm asking you.

ANTON PRETORIUS: As I've already said - may I describe please? Firstly I was the explosives expert, I knew what to do with bombs. because I'm an Intelligence person and I'm reasonably alert with my eyes.
 And as Potgieter was also present and he's already testified that he went through her documents in her presence and had a look at, looked for anything else of interest. I was also there like Mr Potgieter to see what there was - do we perhaps get MK persons whom I can help identify, etc. It's true I was there for the Intelligence section to find out what information we could gain from her house, that is true.

MR MAKANJEE: Could you tell me whether your presence at this raid fell under the recruitment, training and placing of informers, the revolutionary threat, the MDM or Cosatu arm or the tertiary level information because I'm not really clear on how an investigation into Mrs Madikizela Mandela's involvement into the incident concerning Mr Sepei has anything to do with the four categories that you named previously?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission it may possibly have related to those. As I said. if one saw something of tertiary level for instance which I doubt in Mrs Mandela's house, I would have reported that but my main objective was because I was an explosives expert.

MR MAKANJEE: So you were there, not as the head of Intelligence gathering unit but - sorry you said that but I'm just asking you to clarify.

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission, I can't cut myself up in two. I was an explosive expert and the Intelligence Commander so that's why I said I was there for both capacities. Any Intelligence person who got the opportunity of going into Mrs Mandela's house would have grabbed at the opportunity.

MR MAKANJEE: Okay.  You further stated you became aware of the Stompie Sepei event on that evening. I wasn't quite clear on which evening you were referring to, was it the evening that the raid was conducted?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I refer - what I can remember, the evening of the raid was the first night that I officially heard of the Stompie Sepei matter, that was that evening but I don't know what the date is.

MR MAKANJEE: Now this really confuses me. If you were involved in the planning of the raid, it obviously didn't occur one hour before you went on the raid. So what it actually means is that you were aware of the Stompie incident when you were planning the raid, would that not be logical Sir?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I've said already, I assume there were other meetings of the Security Branch where I, as far as I remember was not. I attended the meeting where Murder and Robbery and the Riot Squad got together and they said there would be an action, they said what procedure was to be followed, they spoke about the duties of the Security Branch and they said Murder and Robbery would do the investigation, the search and the Riots Unit would do their part.

MR MAKANJEE: Okay, let me just rephrase this to make it easy for both of us.  You went to a meeting where a raid was planned, now as the head of Intelligence, would it not be a normal, natural, logical process to actually enquire why the raid was planned? Or would you just take the word of the other people there and just attend the raid?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I'm not so unintelligent, I told him that that was the evening when I heard that the matter was about the Stompie Sepei case but if he wants the exact facts, exactly what I can remember, unfortunately I can't remember.
 All I know is that the name Stompie and the abduction was mentioned, that's all I knew. At that stage there was no detail given to us and I don't think Murder and Robbery would have discussed the merits of their case with me.

YASMINE SOOKA: Sorry, may I help Mr Makanjee?  I think what we all trying to understand is - I'm sure before you actually went physically on this raid, you must have been informed at the meeting that was held to plan the raid, what the purpose of the raid was.

ANTON PRETORIUS: If I can imagine, I must have gone to Protea office because I was called out there. I would have been informed yes that, that evening I would have to go with Murder and Robbery and it would be about Stompie Sepei, somebody of the Security Branch must have told me. But as I said, it was the evening before that raid, that was the first time I ever heard of anything to do with Stompie Sepei.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you, I'll leave that there Sir.  I just want to go onto a few more aspects and perhaps you could enlighten me if you have any information in this regard. It's in connection with the death of Doctor Asvat. Can you tell me firstly whether you were aware of everyone whose phone was tapped by the Soweto Security Branch?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission, if I heard you properly you have asked me whose phones were tapped? I didn't hear the question properly.

MR MAKANJEE: I'm not asking you whose phones were tapped specifically sorry. I'm asking you whether you would have been in a position to be able to ascertain exactly whose phones were tapped, as head of the Intelligence Gathering Unit?