Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-24

UNKNOWN: No.  Some of the times, minor meetings yes, I was present in the vicinity standing 10 or 5 yards away from Terreblanche himself but in closed meetings in this capacity we got feedback to what was said via Mr Terreblanche himself but we did perimeter protection. Perimeter protection is like these people standing outside now, they don't know what is going on inside here, but I was there and I got feedback from what was said and this is what we are going to do, this is how we are going to fight, we need arms, we need this.  That is in a manner that I served Mr Terreblanche.

MR MOTLAUNG: And Sir almost finally tell me, you know the way you talk about how Barnard gave you certain instructions, how Koper Myburgh also gave you certain instructions, it looks like, and correct the impression if it is wrong, it looks like there was a big secret that they were busy about, Barnard and Myburgh.  Even you the people who were in the Ystergarde, fairly higher levels within the Ystergarde, did not know what they were up to, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: Sir, if I must put it to you this way:  At that stage I left the head office and I was farming in the Lushof district which is between Lichtenburg and Mafeking, when these people phoned me and said: "Listen this is time, now you must come up to head office".  I did not know of any bombs, any pipe bombs or vehicle bombs or whatever they planned, I didn't know of it.  I walked into a situation where they told me: "From now on you do this and that".  At that stage I was told to do it, I was given a command.

MR MOTLAUNG: I understand but it seems to me even at that time, this command there was something secret about it because initially you were told that look there is some business that we want to finish, that is what Barnard told you, and then at some later stage Koper Myburgh told you that what was loaded in the car apparently was something like manure if I understood the term correctly.

UNKNOWN: No, Sir, not manure.

MR MOTLAUNG: Okay, fertiliser.  Now I mean, can you see that they were not even being open with yourself?

UNKNOWN: I don't know, I don't know if I must even try to put you into that frame of mind.  In a circumstance like this I cannot ask questions to those people and I can't question them for what their ideas and goals were because they were told to do something, they got an order, the way I see it.  I am not there to go and question them: "Listen what were you told, what is the plan of action here"?  I cannot go question them on that.   So if he doesn't tell me about it I am not going to ask him about it.  If its secret and if it is kept one side, that is his business because he has been delegated to do that and I can't question him on that. That is how I see it from the Army's side, that is how I saw it as a para-military organisation in the AWB.  I cannot go and question him.

MR MOTLAUNG: Sir, let me put it this way ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

UNKNOWN: Or manure.

MR MOTLAUNG: Let me put it this way, did you expect Barnard and Koper Myburgh, that when you ask questions, they should give you sincere answers?

UNKNOWN: When I asked Koper Myburgh what was in the car, because I mean it is so obvious the car came there empty and now he comes back to the Holiday Inn parking and this car is packed like this, and I asked him: "What's that mate?", and he said: "kunsmus".  I mean I am not an explosives expert, I don't know.  I mean "kunsmus" for me goes into a mielie land, so he said "kunsmus" and I took it "kunsmus", "What the hell you going to do with kunsmus?" was not my question, I accepted that it was "kunsmus."

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] symptoms were evident before this whole operation started.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Venter, you know with simply following orders in this manner and with this whole secrecy issue, didn't you run the risk of being drawn into a splinter group in the sense that the splinter group would not being doing what the AWB has authorised as an organisation?  If you didn't ask questions would it not be running that risk or did it not matter?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, at that time I did not know what these people were planning. I was told to go to Ventersdorp and from there I would have gone up to the "wildplaas" or wherever
they were because I didn't know. But at that stage when these two people approached me and said I must drive shotgun for them I did not know what it was for.  Yes, maybe if we had to get to Welkom and they had to assassinate somebody or plant a bomb there yes, I would have been involved but I didn't know what it was and they didn't tell me, I walked blindly into something.  
	At the stage where we stopped at Klerksdorp and we loaded the pipe bombs, it came to, well I realised bang, here is it now.  They spoke about war and: "Get the things and we going into it", and here is it now back to reality here is the stuff here in front of me.  I accepted it, I didn't ask questions.

ADV GCABASHE: So if indeed they are found to have been on a frolic of their own to have done things that were not authorised by the organisation, where does your amnesty application fit in with that, because you are saying to us you were acting as a member of the organisation?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Ma'am.

ADV GCABASHE: Where would that fit in, because it has been submitted that these were things that were done by people who were not necessarily following orders.

UNKNOWN: No, Ma'am.

ADV GCABASHE: What do we then do with your application?

UNKNOWN: That is how these people might see it.  The way I saw it I come from head office or used to work at head office, I must add that I used to work there.  I left for a couple of reasons that time but at that stage people working at head office, being at head office in the Ystergarde house, Cliff Barnard came to me and asked me: "Have you got a vehicle available"? and I said: "Yes, he said: "Right come, we are going or you must drive shotgun for us", I said: "Okay".
	But my state of mind at that time was AWB and everybody in it, Terreblanche, the General staff, Cliff Barnard, Koper Myburgh, myself and whoever was involved at that time already, so I did not question whether this was direct from ET himself or from the Generals staff or from whom. I accepted that this was a AWB's decision and I acted as an AWB on that decision.  
	So if they had to tell me jump in the sea I think I would have followed them because that is what they wanted me to do, and I went for it because I saw it as AWB. I didn't know there was a splinter group.  I didn't know maybe Mr Barnard had his own agenda, I really didn't know.  We or myself in my view acted as a AWB at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you now think that it was in fact a splinter group?

UNKNOWN: No, it was a direct order, as I see it and I understand it and know of it, that it comes from a General staff and Mr Terreblanche had to know about it because all these things were in preparation for this weekend.  All these trips that we made to Welkom was in preparation for this weekend, the pipe bombs and all.

CHAIRPERSON: You see Mr Venter let's think about it now and relate it to the circumstances of the time.  Here Mr Terreblanche gets onto television and he makes all types of statements openly, publicly.  The whole world knows what the AWB's attitude and principles are in respect on a number of matters including the elections, but here in preparation for this war everything is so secretive amongst its own battalion, why?