Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I don't have evidence to that effect.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Matshididi in the nature of setting off a bomb of what would appear to be enormous proportions, a very powerful bomb in a built up area, next to a sports stadium,  at the time when the match would have been close either to finishing or almost finished, surely you would have realised that some people may have been killed or injured?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: The reason that I am applying amnesty for is that people were lost, people died unintentionally.  I mentioned that when we planted the bomb the people were still inside the stadium making noise.  When we planted the bomb there were no movements at all.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Matshididi, were you - this unit of yours was it a special unit within the M.K. structure?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: And what was the unit's speciality?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Special operations were it's speciality.

ADV PRIOR: Just give us an example of special operations?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Operations such as going to Government buildings, Police Stations and such buildings.

ADV PRIOR: And blowing them up or planting explosive devices in those buildings?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: It depended on the building.

ADV PRIOR: Now do you agree ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do at the buildings if you didn't blow them up?  Was your special unit just to go stand and admire the building?  What did you do?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: It was not only buildings.  Policemen on the streets - that is why I am saying it was not bombs and bombs every time.

CHAIRPERSON: You were asked what your special unit did and you said your special operations were such as going to Government buildings, Police Stations and such buildings.  You gave that as an example of your special operations.  I want to know what you did at those buildings.

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: We would go with weapons that are supposed to be used at such buildings, sometimes carrying AK47'S.

CHAIRPERSON: You attacked the people in the buildings?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Matshididi, would you agree with my suggestion to you that targeting the Ellis Park Rugby Stadium as it then was that that was a departure from the operations that your unit was tasked to carry out or usually carried out at that time?  In other words it was a departure from attacking Government buildings or buildings associated with the Government of the day?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Our cell had been involved in other operations as well, operations prior to this one, fighting the policemen for an example.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if you understood Mr Prior's question as I understood it.  What he was suggesting was this was a deviation from attacking what is sometimes called hard targets and this was an attack on a soft target.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chair.

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I have mentioned that we did not deviate as such.  We were sending a signal to the white people that we've had enough, talk to your leaders, tell that we are people as well, human beings, we want to live.  We went there to send a signal, not that it was a soft target.

ADV PRIOR: But as a military person or military trained person surely that distinction comes to mind that if you go to plant a bomb in a built up area where there are civilians either to be present there or gathering in that area, that is different from a military type target, hence the distinction -soft and hard target.

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I don't quite understand your question.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Matshididi, I don't want to belabour the point, but let me put to you the historical development of the M.K. bombing  campaign as we know it or understand it.  Sorry I don't have all the dates but we know that there were several bomb attacks or car bombs on for example places like the Witwatersrand Commando Building.  There was an attack, a bomb blast at the Irish Regiment in Johannesburg.  There was bomb blast in Church Street which was directed at the S.A.D.F. Headquarters.  We know that there was an attack on the Magistrates Court in Johannesburg where policemen were in attendance and they were the people that were killed.  I'm suggesting to you that those targets, if we talk about them in military terms because of their association with the military or the police, were called hard targets.  Yet the Ellis Park matter, there seems to be a deviation from that strategy and a bomb is placed in such a position near Ellis Park Rugby Stadium and it seems to be directed at civilian people.  My question is - did you not appreciate that as a departure from the strategy of your unit, that is your special operations, that now you were moving away from hard targets and now you were targeting civilians, soft targets.  Do you understand the questions now?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I now understand your question but this will be my response.  Advocate Prior, I am saying to you if we deviated from hard target to soft target we would have driven the car very close to the stadium.  We would have parked it until half past or even twenty past five.  If you were putting your question that way, if you were saying our intention was to kill civilians I would agree with you but seeing that we parked it far, I do not agree with you.

ADV PRIOR: Well isn't the reason for that is that there was a stronger police or city police or presence at the gate or around the gates of the stadium and you couldn't get close without being detected although that possibility certainly existed?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: If we wanted to park the car anywhere we would have done that.  When we arrived the police were not even at the gate, they were down there far from the gate.  If we wanted we would have parked it close to the gate.

ADV PRIOR: So your final reply to my question is that in your mind there was no distinction with the Ellis Park bomb as in the - as regards the other operations that your unit carried out.  In other words in your mind there was no distinction between hard and soft targets?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: The distinction between soft and hard target that you are referring to, let me tell you.  When we target a hard target we put a bomb very close.  In this case the bomb was planted far from the civilians, the stadium was far from the bomb.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Prior.  In terms of distance how far was the - I know you would be estimating - how far would you say the car was from where the people were?

ADV PRIOR: I think I can assist.  If the Committee would turn to page 53 of the bundle there is a road map.  In the middle of the page on the right hand side there is a circle and you'll see the words "upper" and then "Meyer" further up on the page.  That is where the blast - that is where the car was parked in Upper Meyer Street.  It was almost with the intersection of Byte Street and then the Ellis Park Stadium you will see in bold letters a little distance up.

CHAIRPERSON: So this one was literally right outside what appears to be the Ellis Park tennis ground?

ADV PRIOR: And as the applicant says a distance from the main gate at the rugby stadium which was certainly not near the gate.
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  Chairman has indicated on the - have you seen this sketched plan?  Sorry I beg your pardon.

DR TSOTSI: Matshididi, can you hear me?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Yes I can hear you.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

DR TSOTSI: If this bomb was not intended to kill people what effect actually was it intended to have on the people at the stadium?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: The sound that was going to be produced by the bomb would be heard by the people and this would be a message directed for them.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

DR TSOTSI: Why was it specially placed near a - why did you specially choose the stadium?