Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-12

MR MALAN: Just before you continue, can I just ask you, if you say the exchange, you exchanged information, is that with regards to intelligence pertaining to the enemy?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: You wouldn't have exchanged information about your activities other than that of gathering information, for example the instances you are now applying for amnesty for?  You wouldn't have made this known to the people in Trevits?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No.

MR MALAN: And you also wouldn't ask permission from them?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No we wouldn't have.

MR VISSER: I would have gotten to that but the simple truth is because they did not have executive capacity and they would not be able to give you any permission?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Just to get back to the question of Trevits and to conclude it, the evidence that the Amnesty Committees have heard and the Human Rights Committee of the TRC have heard about Trevits is that it was actually aimed at foreign activities so this would fall in with your understanding of these activities?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And that Trevits by 1990 came to an end?  My attorney shakes his head, I do not understand it properly it seems.  I do have it wrong there, can I just state it correctly?  The capacities and tasks of Trevits in terms of gathering of intelligence with regard to foreign countries changed in 1990.  After the unbanning of the ANC and other radical organisations, as they were viewed in those days, and then they started to work with internal intelligence gathering.  Would that be more accurate to state it in that manner?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Is there anything else you wish to add?

MR MALAN: Excuse me Mr Visser that I interrupt you, just to get some clarity, up until 1990 there was no internal intelligence gathering?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Is there anything else you would like to add?  You were saying you always acted in a reactive manner whenever the terrorist fell into your lap did this change at any point in time?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Chairperson.  Our capacity to work in Swaziland from there it was expanded to Mozambique and even to Lusaka and because the further away you could gather intelligence from your target area the better you could do planning so as to launch any action.

CHAIRPERSON: Could I go back a little bit?  You said a moment ago that up to 1990 there was no internal intelligence gathering?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson, in terms of Trevits who were the revolutionary task team.  We were only aimed at foreign countries but after 1990, after the unbanning of the ANC, the focus was shifted internally.

CHAIRPERSON: But before 1990 there were other police bodies gathering information, intelligence, internally?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.  The normal police function of the security police was functioned internally.

MR VISSER: So I understand that you say that you realised that it did not help to wait for the problem to come to you, you have to go and look for it at the source and stop it there?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And consequently our capacity was also expanded to technical abilities, not only based on the human informant and we had to look at all capabilities of gathering intelligence and with the combination of other intelligence services capabilities we had total intelligence gathering capacity.  National intelligence with their satellite capabilities received information from Lusaka, Defence Force Intelligence had representation in Mozambique and combined with our intelligence capabilities ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Just go a little bit slower, this is important for the Committee and they are making notes of what you say and if you go too quickly something might get lost.  Please go a little bit slower?  You said you capabilities were expanded and better liaison could take place with National Intelligence and the army in neighbouring areas?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Would you like to add anything to that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The onslaught came mainly from Swaziland and therefore in 1986, when we had success with an action against the first Area Political Committee that functioned within.

MR VISSER: Is that Operation Butterfly?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you say because of the successes with the new approach and the new structures, if you want to call it that, that was established and put into action there was a decrease after 1986 because of the successes which you had.  Is that what you're trying to say?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: There was an increase and after our capabilities were expanded, there was definitely a decrease.

MR VISSER: We will address the document soon but it would seem from the summary in Exhibit A  in the index where the incidents from Mr Taylor's book it would seem that in 1986 there were 36 incidents and in 1987 17 incidents, is that what you refer to?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson and to link up with that it is important to note that as well our focus was aimed at Swaziland and at the end of 1985 and 1986 the onslaught was also launched from Botswana on the division Port Natal and it was also the group of Robert McBride and Gordon Webster.

MR VISSER: Yes, the Honourable Chairperson is involved in an amnesty application which deals with an attack on the life of Mr Marius Schoon and he heard the evidence of expanded communication network between Botswana and South Africa.  This is not relevant here but this links up with what you have to say, they came from Botswana to Natal as where they first came through Swaziland.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Would you like to tell us when was Trevits established?  I can't remember if you mentioned it this morning?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I experienced Trevits as a structure in 1986 already but I would assume that it was established before that.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairperson, I have the idea that it would have been a little bit later but we can try and find out what the date.

CHAIRPERSON: Well he says he's experienced it in 1986, are you saying that you're now giving evidence that the applicant is wrong when he says that?

MR VISSER: No Mr Chairman, I'm not giving evidence, I'm trying to be of assistance.  I'm just trying to tell you that the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You're trying to change his evidence aren't you?  He has given evidence saying he experienced it in 1986 and he thinks he was constituted before.

MR MALAN: Excuse me, why I ask this question Mr Botha is  because I have the impression that successes of '86/87 is linked to the changes in 1986 or maybe 1985 but most probably 1986?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: And just to make sure, the changes were with the three in one?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Trevits as well as within the security branch there was a new approach in terms of getting the information, the establishment of an MK intelligence component.

MR MALAN: If I can just get some clarity here, this has nothing to do with the establishment of Trevits but with the reorganisation?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Trevits had a role in that, Trevits gave us the opportunity to work in neighbouring countries, in Swaziland and to gather information there.

MR MALAN: But if I understand you correctly, you were Trevits and with the others you were Trevits?