Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-30

CHAIRPERSON: Do you not see yourself clear or your way clear despite what has happened before, despite what has happened in this hearing, to participate in a process to restore this community to what it should have been and what it was and what it should be?

ELIAS ZWANE: No I do not see my way clear because there's no order that was issued, they were just on their own frolic.

CHAIRPERSON: That may be so as far as you're concerned.  How are we going to live together in Ermelo if we're still going to fight with each other?  Don't you think it's time for us to make peace despite what has happened before?  How can we carry on and on killing each other?

ELIAS ZWANE: I think, Chairperson, there were instances whereby I could not get what you mean or what you meant because at some stages you refused other people permission to say whatever they wanted to say and as long as you're still refusing them permission to do so I don't see us reconciling.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zwane, let me put it this way, you cannot blame this Committee for anything and even - are you suggesting that if certain things are allowed in this hearing you would be prepared to reconcile?  Is that what you're saying?

ELIAS ZWANE: It's true that we can't allow everybody to come and say whatever he or she pleases, you have to select but there is a lot of evidence that you did not allow to be led you just were selective with regard to what you wanted to listen to.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zwane I'm not going to allow you to ridicule this Committee.  If that's the reason you've come here to testify then I'm not going to allow you to do that.  Do you understand?  You've been allowed here to testify as a victim on behalf of the children and if you have gripes with the community with whom you don't wish to reconcile so be it then.  I'm only finding out as to whether you are willing to do so.  Do you understand?

ELIAS ZWANE: I'm not ...[indistinct] the Committee because it has come to assist us.

CHAIRPERSON: Now let us get back to your attitude.  Never mind what has happened in the community before.  Forget about what has happened in this hearing, who said what.  Whether in your view the truth wasn't spoken.  All I'm asking you - can we carry on hating and fighting with each other from now on?  Is life - if life so cheap?  Shouldn't we stop all this and make friends and get on with our lives as it should be?

ELIAS ZWANE: Yes there should be negotiations.

CHAIRPERSON: For a start are you willing to be part of that?

ELIAS ZWANE: I'm not interested.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is there anything else you would like to raise?

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Zwane, just to get back to your brother.  Was your brother working at the time when he got killed?

ELIAS ZWANE: Yes he was working at my shop, my businesses.

MR HATTINGH: Where was he staying at the time?  Where was he living?

ELIAS ZWANE: He had hired or he was leasing some place in somebody else's yard.

MR HATTINGH: You attended most of this hearing, is that correct?

ELIAS ZWANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman.  You attended most of the hearing and you heard everything that was said about your brother Jwi Zwane by the applicants?

ELIAS ZWANE: Yes I did.

MR HATTINGH: In short can you tell this Committee anything about those allegations about your brother Jwi Zwane?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, was he a member of the Black Cats?

ELIAS ZWANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And was he a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party?

ELIAS ZWANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the job of the - what did the Black Cats do?

ELIAS ZWANE: That's a very difficult question for me because the Black Cats were established by the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: But I'm going to request - I'm going to request that the public allow us to continue our job.  Please don't interrupt us.
	But surely you can tell us what the Black Cats do because your brother was a member of that Black Cat group?

ELIAS ZWANE: We chose members of the Black Cats at a stadium as an organisation.  We did not call the Black Cats - these were not the Black Cats, I don't know what they called them.  We told them that we do not want them within the community.  I think there was a meeting, managers meeting.  They called members of the Black Cats, they said they wanted to speak to them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zwane can I just - all I'm asking that in view of the fact that your brother was a member of the Black Cats as you say, what did these Black Cats do.  I'm not asking who chose them and how they were formed.  What did the Black Cats do?

ELIAS ZWANE: It was mainly to rob people, they were thugs.

CHAIRPERSON: I see and I didn't get your answer, was your brother a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party?

ELIAS ZWANE: He was first an ANC member then he ended up being a member of Inkatha.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Hattingh.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Zwane, when you gave me instructions in this matter when it was said that the motive for the killing of your brother was political you indicated to me that in your mind the motive was something else, on a personal level between yourself and Mr John Mndebele.  Something about your businesses.  Could you just explain that?

ELIAS ZWANE: This is a very long story but I was told to make it brief.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you want to lead him?

ELIAS ZWANE: This started during the year 1986 when I opened up my shop.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Zwane, if we could be somewhat brief about this.  How long do you know Mr John Mndebele?

ELIAS ZWANE: A long time.

MR HATTINGH: When did the first problems start?

ELIAS ZWANE: I never had a problem with him.

MR HATTINGH: Were there any problems between you and Mr John Mndebele?

ELIAS ZWANE: This started whilst Jwi was still alive because the comrades would come to the shop looking for Jwi.

MR HATTINGH: Yes, carry on?

ELIAS ZWANE: Then the other time they couldn't get him and they burnt down my shop.  They burnt my shop about 10 times. ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zwane, why do you say your brother was killed?

ELIAS ZWANE: He was killed because he was working at my shop.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the only reason?

ELIAS ZWANE: That is the only reason.

MR HATTINGH: Just one last thing, the role that Mr John Mndebele played in the society here or in the community, could you just briefly tell the Committee about it, as far as you saw it?

INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat the answer, the Interpreter did not get it.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you repeat the answer please?

ELIAS ZWANE: Anyone who was against him was in trouble.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Zwane, is there anything further that you would like to say?

ELIAS ZWANE: No, I don't think there is something else because we have limits here.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I have no further questions but perhaps if you in your wisdom would end this witness' testimony, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions from anybody?  None?
	Mr Zwane, I'm going to make an appeal to you.  It seems that you do carry a bit of influence in a section of the community of Ermelo at least, is there no way in which you can see your way clear in participation in a process to end this madness of killing people and destroying their property?  
	There are children that need education and they can't be educated in this atmosphere.  There are people who need to live 
in a good society, they can't in this society.  Is there no way you can see your way clear in participating in a process to restore what was here and what should be here?

ELIAS ZWANE: There is something that I can do.

CHAIRPERSON: What?

ELIAS ZWANE: To negotiate with the other side and see what we do so as to stabilise the situation and to go back to the old way and try to solve the problems without killing the people.