Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

MR NATCHITANJE: Thank you Chair. I thought we should come in particularly with reference to the articles that were quoted by Mr Vally.
First and foremost to characterise the journals that he was referring to, the African Communist and Dawn, to say that these were forums for debate amongst ANC members and cadres and party members, and not all the statements or articles found in those journals represented ANC policy, and to the extent that you could find articles which were arguing that Inkatha should be seen as a military target by the ANC you would also find articles saying that that should not be the case.
And ultimately, as was elaborated yesterday it is ANC policy that finally prevailed as to what our approach as a movement should be towards Inkatha, and therefore reference should not be made to articles by individuals in the process of debate as reflecting ANC policy.
As indicated yesterday there was debate, even within the policy-making structures of the ANC about how to consider, not only Inkatha but all the other parties and organisations in the Bantustans, be it in the Ciskei, Transkei, Venda, Lebowa and so on and so forth, but ultimately policy prevailed that they would not be considered as military targets of the ANC. We should not forget that the main enemy resided in Pretoria and that's where the concentration of ANC policy should be.
But from time to time there were individuals in these structures, be it in the community councils or in the Bantustan structures who behaved in such a manner within communities that they defined themselves as targets to those communities, and amongst those communities you would from time-to-time find MK cadres who would have responded to such attacks and provocations. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I wonder that whilst Hanif is trying to get to his seat I see Minister Modise is back and you had suggested that he might have information with regard to the Ciskeian situation.

MR MODISE: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no information about the Ciskeian situation.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, that is said very solemnly.

UNKNOWN: Chairperson I just want to come in on the answer that I gave to Mr Vally which was about the fact that to our knowledge there were no instructions given to the MK people on the ground etc, we did provide weapons for the purpose of self-defence to that area, in that period. That I'm aware of.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Dumisa Ntsebeza.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Chairperson. This morning I listened to AM Live and Dr Buthelezi was being interviewed on the statements by the Deputy President yesterday and I have to be careful how I put it, it appeared to me that he was calling into question the veracity of the statement that there was a countermanding, not in so many words. He seemed to suggest that he finds it very difficult to accept that there was a countermanding of that kind because, as I understood him, there wasn't one plot to assassinate him. And though he, in fairness, he seemed to say to your credit Mr Deputy President you may not have been aware of what other members in the hierarchy of the ANC were up to,
He again said he finds it difficult again to find - coming to songs again that there were chants emanating from within the ANC which were actually calling for his elimination and how that then cannot be associated with ANC policy to achieve that end and be treated only at the level of chants, is something that baffles him.
So I don't know whether you have anything to add Mr Deputy President to what you said in the light of what I hope I am recalling the AM Live interview to have been this morning.

UNKNOWN: No Chairperson I really wouldn't be surprised that Dr Buthelezi would have taken a position of that kind. Because as we indicated yesterday the secret service structures in the country, military intelligence included, wanted to sustain the notion that Dr Buthelezi's life was under threat from the ANC in order to position him and the IFP in a particular place relative to the ANC. And I'm quite sure, I'm quite sure that they fed him with a great volume of stories which he believed, obviously, not that I'm blaming him for believing them because in the instance that he got to know of an actual operation that had been discussed by somebody in the ANC, if I come back tomorrow to say to him there's another one that's coming because you are proceeding from what happened really, you might very well believe. So I really wouldn't be surprised that he would indeed believe, he was deliberately fed misinformation in order to make sure that, as I was saying, as part of that counter-mobilisation thing the IFP is positioned in a particular way relative to the ANC.
But I would like to repeat this, it really was a very, very firm position of the movement that no such thing should happen to Doctor Buthelezi, no assassination should be made, that it would be wrong, it would be incorrect from every point of view. And I'm certain Chairperson some of this information will come back to you as a Commission as to what the secret services did, apart from the information that came out during the course of the Kwamakutha trial, what the secret services in this country did to position the IFP in a particular way, and as I say I am quite certain that they would have fed in the story continuously that there were plots on the part of the ANC to assassinate him.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Yes Dumisa Ntsebeza.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Chair. Talking about secret services, would that, the activities of the secret services in that regard, just looking at another point, would you, as leader in the ANC and also as a person, attribute the activities of the secret service in that regard also to the conspiracy theory that has developed around the murder of Chris Hani in which there is an inference that is made that certain leaders within the ANC were part of that conspiracy to have him associated because it would have been in their interests if this were so?
Now I am saying this particularly you did indicate in your last submission that this is an area which needs to be investigated by the TRC. And I'm not asking you to give an indication of what your conspiracy theory would be, but to get an opportunity to hear from you what your views are with regard to a conspiracy theory that seems to suggest that certain leaders within the ANC were standing to benefit from the elimination of Chris Hani. Would you attribute it in the same way as you have attributed it to military or other intelligence services to be the position also in that regard?