Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

CHAIRPERSON: Just remain Mr Mahlangu, don't sit down, just stand.  Give your full names for the record.

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Johannes Mabulani Mahlangu.

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You can sit down.  Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Mahlangu, during the period December 1990, January 1991, were you a member of or a supporter of any political party or political movement?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Yes, I was a member.

MR RICHARD: You say a member, did you carry a membership card of any party?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: I had a card.

MR RICHARD: Issued by who?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: The ANC Youth League.

MR RICHARD: When did you join the ANC Youth League?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: I think it was in 1987 or 1988.

MR RICHARD: I believe that would be 1987, is that correct, 1987?  Now did you ever occupy any particular portfolio or position within the Youth League?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: No.

MR RICHARD: So you were just an ordinary member?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, where did you grow up and where were you schooled?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Pieterskraal.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  In Pieterskraal, did you get to know the Mtsweni family?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: What political affiliation did they have, if any?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: I am not quite certain about that.

MR RICHARD: Now, how did you demonstrate your membership or support of the ANC?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: I used to participate in boycotts and also I used to volunteer as a member to help if there were meetings, I used to participate as well.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now, at what stage did you become aware of the discussions regarding Emma Mtsweni and her connection with witchcraft?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: I heard about this in the last meeting.

MR RICHARD: In the last meeting?  When you say the last meeting, on what time of the day, on which day, was this meeting?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: It was at about six in the afternoon.

MR RICHARD: Where was this meeting?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Egukhanyeni School.

MR RICHARD: When you arrived at that meeting, what had your learnt?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: When I arrived, the meeting was just about to be finished.

MR RICHARD: Did you know what the meeting was about and what did you learn about what had happened in the meeting?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Lately yes.

MR RICHARD: I didn't understand, sorry?  You arrived at the meeting, the meeting was about to disperse, did you ask anyone what was happening at the meeting and why the meeting had been held?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: What were you told?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: I was told that Emma Mtsweni was supposed to accompany others to go to a sangoma and the meeting area was going to be the school, and therefore it was decided that she was going to be fetched in order to be questioned why she didn't show up in the meeting.

MR RICHARD: Did you know why she was supposed to show up at the meeting and what was supposed to be investigated after this discussion?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: And you confirm what the previous witnesses have said today, about why she had to be fetched?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, what did you do, did you go with them to go and fetch her or did you stay at Pieterskraal?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: I went with them to fetch her.

MR RICHARD: Where did you go to fetch her from?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: We went to fetch her from Vaalbank, where she had fled.

MR RICHARD: At Vaalbank, how did you go to Vaalbank, did you walk, did you ride?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, or did you listen to the full account that was given of this trip and how the deceased was picked up in Vaalbank, and everything that happened on the way and how she was eventually taken back to the school where that meeting was being held.  Do you confirm that testimony or do you differ from it?  If you differ from it, just tell us in
which respects you differ.

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: I do confirm everything they had said.

CHAIRPERSON: Good.  You are now back at the school, carry on.

MR RICHARD: For how long were you back at the school?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: We only spent about four to five minutes there.

MR RICHARD: And then where did you go?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: We went to the mountain.

MR RICHARD: You have heard the previous evidence of going to the mountain, do you confirm that?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Yes, I do confirm what they have said.

MR RICHARD: Now, where were you in relation to the deceased when you arrived at the mountain and did you see anything being done to her or happening to her?  Did people question her, do anything?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: I was responsible for taking her out of the car and then after that, I left her in the hands of comrades and I didn't do anything.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, how did you take her out of the car?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: I opened the door and she was taken out.

MR RICHARD: What did the comrades do with her once they took her out of the car?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: They surrounded her.

MR RICHARD: What did they say or do?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: It was, they were toyi-toying and singing and after they surrounded her, they started singing louder.

MR RICHARD: Did you hear what they were singing?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: What were they singing?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: They were singing (indistinct)

MR RICHARD: And you agree with the interpretation the previous witnesses have given us of that song and what it means?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Yes, I do agree.

MR RICHARD: Could you hear them say anything else to her because if they were singing and - did they say anything else to her?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: No, I didn't hear because they were singing.

MR RICHARD: Now, did you see any ANC leaders around her or near you or any were there?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Yes, they were.

MR RICHARD: Who did you see?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Victor Ntuli, he was together with us, we left with him and came back with him.

MR RICHARD: Who else?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: Scwadi was also present.

MR RICHARD: Anyone else?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: The only two that I am certain of, the two that I have seen with my eyes, are these two that I have mentioned.

MR RICHARD: Was it light or dark in the mountain?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: It was dark.

MR RICHARD: Was it dark so that you could see nothing or dark so that you could see a little bit, full moon light?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: It was dark, but one could see someone close to you.

MR RICHARD: If you knew that person, was it sufficiently light to be able to recognise the people you knew?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: If you knew someone and if he or she was next to you, you will tell who it was.

MR RICHARD: Now, what happened next?  You are at the mountain, people had surrounded her and singing and toyi-toying, what happened?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: After they had taken her and surrounded her, I couldn't see properly what was happening to her, but what I saw was Police vans and at that time, she was on fire.

MR RICHARD: Then what happened?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: When the Police were approaching the mountain, everyone started running away.

MR RICHARD: What happened to Emma Mtsweni?

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: I wouldn't be able to say what happened to Emma Mtsweni because all I know is that she was on fire.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now, at page 18 of the bundle, which is your application for amnesty, at paragraph 10(a) you say
"... the murder was committed under the leadership of the Youth",
	why do you say the murder was committed under the leadership of the Youth?