Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

CHAIRPERSON: I remember this morning telling you that in the light of the short time you had to prepare that if you ask for adjournments it would be granted.  Very well.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: (s.u.o.)

MR LANDMAN: I don't have any re-examination but Mr Prior I understand has one or two questions.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LANDMAN

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman I apologise.  It was brought to my attention when the Committee adjourned to just put to Mr Matshididi, the applicant, the aerial photograph that appears at page 35 of the bundle.  Unfortunately we were only able to get a photocopy of the photograph.  Point A according to the key in respect of the photographs, that's at page 33, indicates the crater in Upper Meyer Street and at the top of the photograph to the right hand side one clearly sees the Ellis Park Rugby Stadium.   That photograph is being shown to Mr Matshididi and a pink line was drawn - obviously the Committee hasn't seen it, if I may just show you Mr Chairman?  And along that perimeter I'm instructed by the people who were at the scene of that evening looking for Mr Klukas and I don't really want to make an issue of it at this state, if it's material enough it will be clarified but along that pink line apparently was the perimeter and somewhere along that line was the entrance gate.  Would you please show Mr Chairman the entrance to the stadium, in other words persons passed through a ticket gate as it were somewhere along that line and then they proceeded on foot further into the premises to the stadium and what I've been asked to put to Mr Matshididi is that if Point A is the craters where the bomb exploded, then from that aerial photograph one sees that the distance is not very great to the perimeter of the stadium.  In other words it's not a great distance it's a fairly close distance.  May I just indicate that the original photographs I understand are with the Attorney General, Mr D'Oliveira, and obviously we are presently making efforts to get the originals to the hearing. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Although in that regard I'm quite sure if contact is made directly with Mr D'Oliveira arrangements could be made, if you could request they be made available on the basis that some member of his department can bring them here, make them available and take them back so there is no danger of them becoming lost in transit, in post or anything else.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  May Mr Matshididi just comment on that photograph?  What's being suggested, Mr Matshididi, is that to the contrary the car was parked in fact close to where people enter the premises of the stadium, in other words they present or buy their tickets or present their tickets at that point.  In other words a close distance from where the car was parked.

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: (s.u.o.) I still say and maintain that the car was far from the gate.  Where the car was parked is quite a distance from the gate, there was a street and you have to go a distance across the street, get to the pavement and get into the gate.  It was quite a distance.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.  Mr Chairman may I just place on record that contact has been made, the original colour photographs will be present tomorrow morning.  Thank you Sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

MR LANDMAN: No re-examination.

ADV SANDI: Mr Matshididi, do you have any knowledge who was the owner of the vehicle?  Do you know where it came from?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: It belonged to a certain boy called Boykie who resided in Orlando.

ADV SANDI: How was this vehicle obtained from him?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: We bought the car - we took the car from him, he told us that it was a stolen car.

ADV SANDI: Did you personally take part in obtaining this vehicle from Boykie?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: It was myself and Aggie.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Thank you Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman may I assist - the owner of that vehicle, it was a BMW vehicle, it was a Mr Hans Dieter Beaumay.  There is a statement but it wasn't put up in the bundle and he was notified of ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: It was a stolen vehicle?

ADV PRIOR: It was a stolen vehicle, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I have a few questions I would like to ask you.  Firstly, it is clear I think from your evidence that your commanders had read about the rugby match in the newspaper some days before?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That is correct, my lord.

CHAIRPERSON: And they would have ample opportunity to ascertain the starting time?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: I do not know, I did not discuss that issue with them.

CHAIRPERSON: The next point is as I understand it I think, I just wanted to clarify something, you and Aggie went on a reconnaissance by yourself to Ellis Park first?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And it was only after that you took Dumakude, you took him on the Friday afternoon?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: It was Dumakude and Dube.

CHAIRPERSON: On the Friday afternoon?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And finally you've told us how you went shopping on the Saturday morning.  You bought two large gas cylinders as I understand it, a battery and a clock?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you take this back with you?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: To Diepkloof?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was done there?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: The bomb was assembled at Zone 5, Diepkloof.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you use the gas cylinders to make the bomb?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: The gas cylinders were used.

CHAIRPERSON: Were explosives put into them?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: They were put, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did the explosives come from?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Dumakude brought them with.

CHAIRPERSON: Two of them, two large gas cylinders primed with explosives?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: No, all of us - we were together when the cylinders were bought.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sorry, but when you came back to Diepkloof when you filled these two large gas cylinders with explosives?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Yes Dumakude produced those explosives.

CHAIRPERSON: And you must have realised that when the explosives went off when they were ignited the cylinders would burst into shrapnel or burst into pieces?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: You are correct but it was my first time to see a bomb of that kind on that day.  I didn't know the radius that it would take when it explodes.

CHAIRPERSON: No but you realised that it would explode and shatter, pieces of metal all round it?

HAROLD MATSHIDIDI: Yes I had that idea.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED