Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-10

MR VISSER: And may we also request that the document be marked Exhibit A, because you may or may not have seen some of the statements of evidence which we have prepared for the witness as we are used to do.  They all refer to an Exhibit A that the witnesses are referring to in their statements is this particular Exhibit A.  So there's that reason for it as well to be marked Exhibit A.

CHAIRPERSON: This document will then go in, the document headed "Algeme Agtergrond tot Amnesty Aansoek" will go in as Exhibit A.

MR VISSER: May it please you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, may I very briefly, within a minute or two, just take you through the document, just to give you some feeling of the summary which we made.  If you turn to page 1, Chairperson, you will observe there references were made to what you have become accustomed to, Chairperson.  You will recall that in February 1997, when we first appeared before you, we handed in certain exhibits which we marked Exhibit P45, P46 and P47.  Well the applicants will simply refer to those without repeating the contents, because by this time everybody in this process must know those documents by heart surely.	And then the evidence of Gen van der Merwe on the dates upon which we have stipulated that, Chairperson, and that of Mr Adriaan Vlok.  Then one can immediately go to page 2 where we deal with the background and dimensions of the conflict of the past.  And basically what we have done, Chairperson is we have given, and we rely on the judgments which the original Amnesty Committee have given, which we specified in paragraph 6 at that page, and we deal very briefly, Chairperson, with first of all an extract from that decision in the Cronje case, at page 2 and we deal for as far as it was necessary, with certain aspects which had not been dealt with by the Amnesty Committee.  They really speak for themselves, Chairperson, and I don't intend to deal with that in any detail.
	It does refer to some evidence by Vlok and van der Merwe, which you'll find up to page 10 and then - actually 11, and then going on to page 12, Chairperson.  We deal in particular with some of the issues arising from the conflict of the past, more particularly the strategies and tactics of the ANC/SACP alliance, at page 13, which you've heard before.  And at page 14 we give the - if we may say so with respect, the accurate summary given by the original Amnesty Committee at the foot of page 14 over the page to page 15, Chairperson.  And then at page 16 we simply deal with the general position of applicants, which was also dealt with by the original Amnesty Committee. 
	So Chairperson very briefly, you would have recognised from what I have addressed to you now, that this is nothing new, it really is only a very, very brief summary of all the welter of evidence which had been placed before the Amnesty Committee before.  And we did this because of a decision of the Amnesty Committee, who said that it might be helpful if in future reference is made to those issues without having to repeat them.
	Now Chairperson, the real point about this document starts at ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: May I just interrupt.  This document Exhibit A, is that going to be dealt with and referred to in the other matters in which you are concerned as well, apart from the matters that are set down for today?

MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson, that's the point.

CHAIRPERSON: So this has a bearing on the other applications as well.

MR VISSER: This is a basis for all applications.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  Thank you, very much.

MR VISSER: And what you will hear the applicants do is they will either confirm the whole of that document or they will exclude some parts which they can't confirm.  But each of the applicants will be asked when he starts with his evidence, whether he's seen that document or whether he confirms the contents.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: So that would form the basis and we need not then, Chairperson, subject to your rulings and subject to particular issues which may arise, we do not have to belabour the point of the conflict of the past and the political background and the background of applicants any longer.

CHAIRPERSON: Quite right.

MR VISSER: Now Chairperson, going on from page 18, what we also did was to give a very brief summary in regard to specific topics.  At page 18 you will find the role of the neighbouring States, and we deal at page 18 with Botswana, which will not be relevant to you here.  We deal at page 20 with Swaziland, which will be relevant in these proceedings, Chairperson.  You will of course notice that it's very, very brief indeed.  And then page 21 we deal with Lesotho.  And then at page 22, because it has come up from time to time, we deal with informers very briefly, and it will also again become relevant here.  This does not pretend to be a full argument or anything of the nature, it simply deals with the issues.
	Chairperson, what we had in mind was to go back now, after you kindly allowed the postponement, and in the time available for the rest of the day, if possible, to draw a similar chapter which we will add at the back of page 23 of Exhibit A, dealing with the conflict and the nature of the violence in Natal.  Hopefully we will be able to draft a sensible document with which no fault can be found to the extent that we can then thereafter in each incident, when it is called, simply go on with the facts.  And if that pleases you, Mr Chairman, that is the reason why we have dealt with the matter in that sense.  
	Where the bundles that the TRC have forwarded to both yourselves and us find themselves now, we don't know, but what we will attempt to do with the co-operation of Ms Thabethe, the Evidence Leader, we're hoping that she will be able to render us assistance, is to print in each of the applicants for each of the applicants for whom we appear, a summary of his evidence, which he can place before you to save you from writing down things that they are saying.  There's an additional reason, Chairperson, that in some of the incidents the applicants were so vague at the time that they could not remember the particular facts of that incident and where they in fact said "I can't remember anything", but later at the amnesty application I will provide such facts and circumstances and evidence as I may be able at that stage to do.  
	So what we have done is we have amplified that and it's on paper.  We will print it out this afternoon, there are quite a large number as you can well imagine, and we will then reproduce those so that the proceedings may proceed smoothly the moment we get going, Chairperson, which is hopefully tomorrow morning at half past nine, as you indicated.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.