Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-12

MR SHAYI: And then when you drove off in the motor vehicle were you aware that the female was still   alive?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Yes, we opened the door because our intention was not to kill her.  We opened the door and she got out and we drove away.

MR SHAYI: Then did you finally load the firearms?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Do you mean the guns that we were to pick up from Gadafi or which ones?

MR SHAYI: Yes, the ones which were to be picked up from Gadafi.

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do with the other body of the deceased?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: We removed the body from the vehicle, put it on the grass and we drove away in the vehicle.  We also took the gun which he was using to try and shoot us.

MR SHAYI: What were you intending to do with the motor vehicle after you had acquired the firearms?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: After loading the firearms our intention was to drive from Thokoza to Soweto, deliver the arms, after which I ordered the comrades in my company to go and burn the vehicle.  The reason being that the police should not be able to trace us.

MR SHAYI: Would it have made any difference whether the occupants of the motor vehicle were of any race but the white race?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: That would not make any difference because we were not after the skins, a person's skin colour but we wanted the vehicle.

MR SHAYI: And you were later arrested and brought before the Court of law.

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: That is correct.

MR SHAYI: And in the Court itself you pleaded not guilty and you denied everything, is that correct?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: That is correct.

MR SHAYI: Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHAYI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Advocate Steenkamp, any questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, if you would allow me just one or two questions.
	Sir, as I understand it you took the car and the gun, is that all you took from the deceased or the two occupants, only the car and the gun?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: As far as I'm concerned those are the only two things that we took because we found nothing in the boot, we just wanted the car.  Fortunately we also got a firearm.

ADV STEENKAMP: What about the handbag of the lady with all her personal belongings, what about that, didn't you take that?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: I did not see a handbag, I don't know whether it was taken away with the car when it was going to be burnt or not.  I wouldn't say yes or no but I personally did not see it.

ADV STEENKAMP: Because this was uncontested in Court that only after you'd killed the deceased you took the lady's handbag with the gun.

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: That is news to me, I did not see any bag.  It may have been in the cubby-hole, not in the boot but really, I did not look around inside the car.  I wouldn't say yes, there was a bag or not, I'm not in a position to say.

ADV STEENKAMP: When you told the Supreme Court, via your advocate, that you were never on the scene you lied to the Supreme Court, is that correct?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Let me briefly explain that I pleaded not guilty in Court, the reason being that after my arrest I was not treated well by the police and I was not treated well in Court and I realised that I was already convicted.  That is why I pleaded not guilty.

ADV STEENKAMP: No, no, no, Sir, my question is, you told the Supreme Court specifically on page 36 that you were never on the scene, that would be your testimony, is that correct?  Is that what you said to the Court, because this is part of the record?  Now my question to you is you lied to the Supreme Court.  I can maybe just ask you the follow-up question, are you also applying for perjury for when you testified in the Supreme Court or not or are you also applying for amnesty?

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Steenkamp ...(intervention)

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Yes, I told lies in Court but I am here to divulge the truth.

ADV STEENKAMP: Are you also applying for amnesty for that?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: As far as I am concerned the Court is not the same thing as the Truth Commission.  I'm here to ask amnesty for killing the male and wounding the woman and taking the firearm.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can I ask you maybe to look at page 13 of the bundle, Mr Chairman.  	My question and I'm referring to paragraph 21, Mr Chairman.
	Maybe you can help us - sorry, you don't have that in front of you.

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: No.

ADV STEENKAMP: You see there, paragraph 21
"Firearms used by the unit were provided to us by comrade Sinamela and these were three AK47s, 9 shotguns."
And if you look at paragraph 22 at page 40, Mr Chairman:
"The ammunition was also provided by comrade Sinamela but addition ammunition was obtained from various sources and sympathisers, some of whom were policemen."
Are you also applying for amnesty for possession of the three AK47s and the 9 shotguns?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Is that a statement or a question?

ADV STEENKAMP: It's a question Sir, are you applying for amnesty for those guns and ammunition because I don't see it in your original amnesty application?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: The guns that appear here were not found by the police and I was not prosecuted for them, I was only prosecuted and sentenced for killing and taking the firearm away from the person that I had killed.

ADV STEENKAMP: I think you misunderstand me Sir.  According to this additional statement of yours it seems to me that you were also in possession of these firearms and my question to you is are you also applying for amnesty for the possession of these firearms, because in the statement you admit being in possession of them.  Do you understand my question?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Mr Chairman, before answering I would like to confer with my attorney.

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Yes, Chairperson, this amnesty application I did it at the time before consulting with my attorney.  I did not discuss the firearms in my application form, I only discussed the .38 and the 9mm and now that these guns are included here I would say yes, I include them in my application for amnesty.

ADV STEENKAMP: I'm sure that is for the Chairperson to decide, whether or not this will be amended, whether or not your application will be allowed to be amended.  I'm sure that is for the Chairperson to decide.
	My next question to you Sir is, was it ANC policy to rob people of their vehicles, take their personal possessions and kill them at the scene?  Do you understand that as part of ANC policy?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: The policy of the African National Congress is silent on attacking people.  You must  understand that we were engaged in a struggle.  I would not have used sacks or bags to transport these in a train.  I was engaged in a struggle here.

ADV STEENKAMP: Maybe just a yes or no, was this part of ANC policy as you understood it or not?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: No, it was not policy of the ANC.

ADV STEENKAMP: And you say this was not a racial attack, am I right?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Would you please repeat your question, my gadget is dysfunctional and now I don't know what's happening.

ADV STEENKAMP: I'm just trying to confirm your evidence that you said in chief that this was never intended to be a racial attack or conflict at all, am I right?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Yes, that was not an intention, it was not meant to be a racial attack.

ADV STEENKAMP: The reason why I'm asking this is because looking at your amnesty application, page 3 if I maybe can refer the Honourable Chairperson and the Committee Members to page 3 and specifically paragraph 10(b), the first five lines.
	Do you have that in front of you, Sir?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Will you please give me a chance so that I can browse through?