Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: I read that to say this unit which is inside Lesotho was responsible for coming into the Republic and launching attacks.  Do you agree with me?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Just let me read it again please.  I read it differently, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: How do you read it?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Well if you read it
"By means of informers we were informed that she was a Commander of an MK cell which was responsible for launching terrorist operations from Lesotho to the RSA, and more specifically the Free State."
I don't read that to say that they were going to infiltrate and they were going to ... they had to organise.

MR MALINDI: Maybe it will be a question of argument on how that sentence should be interpreted.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR LAX: The next sentence does go on to say that though that it's dealing - you're talking about the cell?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: About four ...

MR LAX: Yes.  This is the cell that they're talking about.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct.

MR LAX: And the cell is the subject of the sentence, not Betty Boom.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: No, that's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And therefore it's the cell that's responsible for the attacks.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: The cell is responsible, that's correct Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: My suggestion is that you had enough information that this cell was going to launch attacks in the RSA, in particular in the Free State, all you had to do was to inform other sections of the Security Forces, they could have arrested the whole of this unit, which must have been their main objective of securing the country at the time.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: We did that, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: No, you didn't arrest the unit, you in fact tried to re-transform the unit and make it all informers, instead of arresting them.  Which was the more effective way of dealing with...

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, we utilised the information and when utilising that information this person that we've referred to before was killed in Bloemfontein.  There were also other people killed in a roadblock in Bloemfontein.  That was a result of the information that we'd received from the cell.
	If I can just carry on on that, Chairperson, we had information that they wanted to attack the, well bomb the Army offices in Maitland Street as well and that was also, guards were placed to guard the area so that didn't take place.

MR MALINDI: Well the previous witnesses, if I remember well, could only remember the incident involving Tony Yengeni and the other person that you referred to in-chief, in Bloemfontein, and both incidents that we ...(indistinct) verify at this stage, isn't it?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I'm telling you what I remembered, Mr Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: You say that the discussions about abductions you were aware of, but at the end of the day these people were not abducted, that's Betty Boom, Nomasonto and Tax.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Betty Boom wasn't abducted, Chairperson, but - I don't know if it would amount to abduction if you took somebody out of a country and took away their freedom by false pretences, I'm not au fait with the law in that respect.

MR MALINDI: You agree with the previous witnesses, that they were not forced into these vehicles that fetched them, they actually came in willingly, voluntarily?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I can only speak on behalf of two of them, Chairperson, and that was Betty Boom and Tax Sejanamane.

MR MALINDI: The ones that you were involved with?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: But the question remains, you've given a reason for initially wanting it to appear as kidnapping, as an abduction, why at the end didn't you effect that?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Sorry?

MR MALINDI: Why didn't you make it look like an abduction, for the reasons that you gave in-chief?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Why did we not do it?

MR MALINDI: Yes.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: It wasn't necessary, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Well the evidence is that you sent them back into Lesotho in order to operate as informers, and the reason why you wanted it to appear as an abduction initially, was so that if anybody saw them being taken away they wouldn't suspect that they were being taken away because they co-operated with you.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, you're referring to they, who are you referring to?

MR MALINDI: I'm referring to the Betty Boom unit.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: To all of them?

MR MALINDI: The cell.  Okay let's deal with one person at a time and let's start from the outset.  Initially you wanted it to appear as an abduction, when you took or fetched Betty Boom from Lesotho.

MR VISSER: My learned friend has said that three times now, Chairperson, and that's not the evidence.  The evidence was that initially it was supposed to be an abduction, that was Jantjie's evidence, that's not this witness's evidence.  This witness says if it would become necessary later, if it appeared that people either saw them or that there were suspicions, they would then use it as a cover to put out the word that she was abducted, in order for her to have a cover to back to the ANC.  That was this witness's evidence.  He never said that it was supposed to be a pretended abduction from the word go, that was not his evidence.

MR LAX: Except to say that he did say that the initial plan was to make it look like an abduction, if there were people in the vicinity and then later, if it later appeared that they were seen.  Now those are two slightly contradictory versions, but be it as it may, I'll clarify that with him in due course.  But the fact of the matter is that all the witnesses, all the applicants in essence, were under the impression that the object of the exercise was to effect a purported abduction if, if there were people in the vicinity.

MR VISSER: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.  Or if there would be problems later.

MR LAX: Well you couldn't do it, you couldn't conduct an abduction ex post facto when you've already taken the person without abducting them, it's just insane.

MR VISSER: Well Chairperson, we can argue about that.  I will tell you, that's as easy as falling out of a tree.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, let us rather approach it this way.
	Mr Robertshaw, were you part of the discussions when it became, or when the unit became aware that Betty was now under suspicion that she's co-operating with your unit?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: They reported to me that there was a chance of her being compromised, Mr Chairperson.  They did discuss it with me, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you agreed on the strategy that she "be abducted" from Lesotho, so that those suspicions be dispelled?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I agreed that she should be brought out of Lesotho, that's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's the tenor of how you wanted to question, Mr Malindi, I don't know.

MR LAX: Well can I, because it's now not clear to me at all, from your last answer, because all you say you agree to was that she should be taken out of Lesotho, you haven't agreed with what the Chairperson put to you, which was that she be "abducted" from Lesotho. (in inverted commas)

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Well if it's "abducted" (in inverted commas), I agree with you, that's correct Chairperson.

MR LAX: Thank you, now we're on the same ...

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.