Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-28

MR RATHMAN: At the time of the attack, how was Gumbi armed?

MRS DLAMINI: May you please repeat the question?

MR RATHMAN: At the time of the attack, how was Gumbi armed, was he carrying any arms, assegai's, firearms, anything?

MRS DLAMINI: It wasn't the first time to see Gumbi, it was the first time to see him coming to our home at night.  I used to see Gumbi holding this knopkierrie with a bolt at the top and nuts at the top.  Sometimes when going to collect water from the pipe I tried to run away and he said I mustn't run.  When I asked him where was he from, I knew that he was lying and he ...(inaudible) from the Dlamini family and asked whether he knew me and he said yes, he knew me and then he left me and passed towards the direction of one family.
	That's where we used to - that's where we slept.  And that's where they asked him whether he was involved in a fight and he refused and he said he wasn't involved.  The other time he came and arrived with a young man and this young man in his company is from the Zuma family.  They came and asked where are the comrades who ran into this house.  The mother from the ...(inaudible) say she didn't see comrades coming into her house.  
	Gumbi was wearing a firearm and a knopkierrie.  The other man killed, didn't kill but attacked or hit the mother in that house.  At the time they attacked us, I saw a spear.  He was holding a spear.

MR RATHMAN: Right, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DE KLERK: Mr Chairman, I was not aware that this witness is going to testify, I know that there was a meeting on Friday but it didn't obtain ...(inaudible).  It seems that this witness also gave evidence during the criminal ...(inaudible).  What she has testified now seems to differ from what I quickly went through on the Judgement.  I think it's only fair if I can just be granted the time to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DE KLERK: In these papers I don't see her evidence, that means the typed evidence during the trial itself, it's only the Judgement.  If I could get hold of that evidence - I presume it was typed, I would be ready tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DE KLERK: No, no, it seems that there is a suggestion that there was a vehicle ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DE KLERK: No, no, I don't know, I don't know.  I was just under the impression that if the Judgement was typed maybe the evidence itself was also typed so I don't know if it was typed.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I know of no typed copy.  What we normally request is a Judgement and ... sentence only.

MR DE KLERK: The reason why it's important Mr Chairman, is that it seems that there is a question in the Commission's mind or maybe in some minds of the victims if this was a planned attack and if there were people involved in planning this attack in a vehicle being used, this was now actually stated by this witness that there was a vehicle and people with camouflaged clothes and so forth.  Out of the Judgement I did not see ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think there was any mention ...(intervention)

MR DE KLERK: That's right ...(inaudible) excuse me Mr Chairman, so I would like to just clarify that matter if it was ever raised during the trial at all.

CHAIRPERSON: You had no reason - well you have - there has been cross-examination of both your clients about a vehicle being present in the area at the time and they both denied any such vehicle.  I can understand that you may wish to make other inquiries as we've now had a description of the vehicle which has not been put before.  Mr Mpshe, would you be ready to go on, or do you also want ...

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I'm ready to continue ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we do it that way, do as much as we can today.  Are you all available tomorrow morning?

MR DE KLERK: Mr Chairman, I'm actually not available but I can arrange to be available.

CHAIRPERSON: Tomorrow will be too quickly for you to get any ...(intervention).

MR DE KLERK: That's the problem, I'll have to then go and listen to the tapes ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Can we discuss the question at some other date this week after ...   If we go on now Mr Mpshe can put his questions as I don't want to keep the witness sitting here longer than necessary.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Besides that Mr Chairman, we've got to determine whether the typed record where the witness has testified will be available.  To my  mind to request a record ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He's now talked of listening to the tape.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now Mr Chairman then I'm going to have a problem as to what we tell the Committee what is on the tape.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) ... the basis for questioning.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'll ...(inaudible) but I'm not comfortable with him listening to the tape alone and ...(intervention)

MR DE KLERK: Mr Chairman, anybody can come and listen with me, I really don't mind.

CHAIRPERSON: The problem is if you can find it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is another issue.  Mr
Chairman, I won't be long with the witness.   Mr Dlamini, Mrs Dlamini I'm sorry, you were sitting in here and you heard the evidence that has been given by the two Applicants.

MRS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And the Applicants amongst others are before this Committee for amnesty.

INTERPRETER: Could you please repeat your questions?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The Applicants are before this Committee for amnesty.

MRS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What is your feeling about them, what is your feeling about their application for amnesty?  Do you understand why we're all here today?

MRS DLAMINI: That's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now what is your feeling, how do you feel about them asking for amnesty for what they did?

MRS DLAMINI: Yes, I understand that they're asking for amnesty.  Whatever, I don't like the fact that they're lying to say that they didn't know or didn't see that there were women inside the house when they were attacking and that there was no light in the house.  There was light in the house and there was a moonlight so I would say that they are lying to say that they couldn't see that there were women in the house.  To say they ask for amnesty because what they did was a mistake, it wasn't what they intended and to say that they were following their leaders - we do agree with the granting of amnesty if that is the case.  However what I don't like is that they're lying to say that they didn't see our younger sisters or didn't recognise that they were women.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, that will be all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I'm going to have a problem because ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think Wednesday might be a bad choice in that we are on Wednesday I think, having the other side.

MR DE KLERK: I must agree Mr Chairman, I think that's also a bad day for me.

CHAIRPERSON: Thursday or Friday.

MR DE KLERK: Thursday is a very good day for me because I will be in Maritzburg or I would have been in Maritzburg anyway.

CHAIRPERSON: Thursday ...(inaudible)

MR DE KLERK: The 31st.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.  This case will not be finished today, we are going to adjourn it to Thursday if that arrangement can be made, if Mrs Dlamini can be available here on Thursday.  Is it possible for her to ...(intervention)

MRS DLAMINI: Yes, I will be available.

CHAIRPERSON: You will be here Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes certainly Mr Chairman, I will be here Mr Chairman but I wanted to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I would suggest that if after listening to the tape tomorrow, you do discover something that you should get in touch with the other representatives and inform them to what it is so if they want to go and verify or check they can do so.

MR DE KLERK: Only with pleasure Mr Chairman.