Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes, during my arrest it was like that, but I have been in prison since 1992.  When I left it was like that, I don't know, because there have been changes, probably it is no longer the same.  I wouldn't say it is still like that, because the government has changed.  It may probably have changed, but this is how I left it.

MR RICHARD: Now, who was the senior chief in that area at the time?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Mabhogo.

MR RICHARD: And now is it not from him that you received this summons or letter asking you to appear before him?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes, the first letter we received, it was from him.

MR RICHARD: Did you go to the meeting, and if so, who else was at the meeting?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes, we did go to the meeting.  It was myself and my sister.

MR RICHARD: Your sister's name is?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Anna.

MR RICHARD: Now ...

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: And my brother as well was present, Kleinboy Mtsweni.

MR RICHARD: And who else if any?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: There was Mtsweni families, uncles and also the deceased was present, together with her children.

MR RICHARD: What are her children's names?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: The one that I remember very well is Makololo and one Leah and the other daughters, but I don't remember their names.

MR RICHARD: Sarah, does that ...

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes, and Sarah as well.

MR RICHARD: Now, what did the chief explain to you as to why he called you  to the meeting?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: He did explain to us that he had called us because we had accused my grandmother that she was bewitched and we did ask the chief as to who told my grandmother and my grandmother didn't have an answer to that question.
	They requested her to tell them who had told her, and she refused and then the chief decided that we should go back and discuss this as a family.  We left, we went back home.  As we were leaving, it was said that we were supposed to meet and it was decided that we were going to meet at Mashiane, who was a junior chief in the area.

MR RICHARD: Now, this meeting with Mr Mashiane, was that the meeting where you were supposed to discuss the problems as a family or was there another meeting as well?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: It was a meeting where we were supposed to discuss the very same problem which we went to see the senior chief.

MR RICHARD: Now, tell me, when you met with chief Mashiane, what happened there?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: We met at chief Mashiane's kraal, it was discussed but no solution came forth.   Eventually we were told that we were supposed to go and see a ngaka or a sangoma and the name of that sangoma is Makuduza.

MR RICHARD: Why did you need to go and see a sangoma?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: The way it was discussed, it was concluded that probably the sangoma will help us resolve this, he will help us to clarify this matter.

MR RICHARD: Would the sangoma have been asked the question as to whether Ms Emma Mtsweni or not, was a moloi or whether he could identify who was making the allegation against Mrs Emma Mtsweni?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question.

MR RICHARD: I will phrase it differently, would the sangoma be asked the question is Emma Mtsweni a witch or would he be asked the question who is accusing Emma Mtsweni of being a witch?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: We went there to find out who was accusing Emma of being a witch.

MR RICHARD: Now when you went to see this (indistinct), this sangoma, did Emma go with you?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: We had agreed upon a certain date to go and see the sangoma.  Before the date, two of her children came, I don't remember whether it was Leah or Sarah and (indistinct).  They came to my home, they found my sister, Selina Mtsweni and they said to her "we had decided to take them to our own sangoma" and they had decided not to go there, but they will do, they will go to Kwaggafontein, another area in kwaNdebele and they will look for comrades and they will bring them back in order for them to burn down our house  or our home.

MR RICHARD: If I understood you correctly, these two women, Emma's children, told you in essence that they wouldn't go to your sangoma, but they intended going to comrades at Kwaggafontein who would then come and burn down your house, is that correct?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now the next thing is I believe your sister Selina did something, what is it that she did?  Did she report the matter to you or ...

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: If I remember very well, Selina told us, but before she told us, she went and saw the leaders of that area, Scwadi and Skosh.  She told them that they mustn't be surprised if they found out that our house had been burnt down, because there were people who came to her and told her that they were going to go to Kwagga and fetch comrades to come and burn the house.  She said if something like that could happen, they must know who were responsible.

MR RICHARD: Now, do you know what Scwadi and Skosh did in response to that?  What did your leaders do in response to Emma's children's report to them?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Skosh and Scwadi called on a meeting after she had told them everything, they called a meeting and they also fetched my grandmother's kids, Magololo and a certain date was set upon which we were going to go to the sangoma.  When that day arrived, we were called again to another meeting.  On that day I didn't have transportation.  A man by the name of Mabona was called, he was owning a kombi.  We boarded the kombi, my grandmother was also present and I think Magololo as well.  We went to see Makuduza, the sangoma.
	When we arrived I think we arrived there at about seven, or between seven and eight.  When we arrived, we got in there.  Makuduza is the one person, one sangoma that works according to appointments.  We had to go back and we had to make an appointment with him.  We agreed on coming back on another date.
	When that day arrived, a meeting was called in a school.  We gathered there in that school.  My grandmother and her children didn't show up.  On that day I was driving my uncle's bakkie.

MR RICHARD: Do you remember what day of the year this was, this last meeting at the school?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: If I remember quite well, I think it was on the 2nd of January 1991.

MR RICHARD: Were Emma Mtsweni and her daughters supposed to be at that meeting?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes, because it was the day we agreed upon that we were going to go back to the sangoma.

MR RICHARD: Where had they gone instead of keeping their arrangements?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: We held the meeting and after the meeting, we proceeded to my grandmother's house.  When we arrived there, we found Sarah and Leah.  We asked them about their mother and they said to us she had run away.  We asked them as to where she had gone to, they said she went to Vaalbank to see her brother.
	We took both of them because we wanted them to go and show us where their mother was.  They boarded Phillip's van or bakkie, since I was also driving another van and Phillip was also driving another one.

MR RICHARD: On your way, my first question is did Sarah and Leah get into the bakkie voluntarily?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: If I remember, I think they were forced, it wasn't voluntarily.

MR RICHARD: At the meeting at the school, how many people were present?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: At that meeting at the school, I think it was approximately between 200 and 300 people.

MR RICHARD: At that meeting, those people, 200 or 300 in number, were they told that Emma Mtsweni had no revealed the source of the allegation against her, that she was a moloi and that she had not kept her appointments?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Richard, maybe you can put the question in this way so that one can get a clear picture of what happened.