Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR CURRIN: ... refer to that ...  (rest inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: It is all evidence, as I understand it.

MR CURRIN: I just wanted to know whether there was anyreason why, from the witness, why that evidence was not read ontothe record.

CHAIRPERSON: If you think there is anything sinister aboutit, then I'd like to hear it.

MR CURRIN: In the context of that question,  I would liketo ask you why you deem it necessary to kill Maake and the reasonwhy I asked the question is because there is a motivation forkilling people that you torture.  And one of  the important reasonsis so that person that you've tortured who gleans informationthrough being tortured about  other informants and about the SecurityPolice activity, would
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then be a threat to you.  He already knew all of that information- sorry, that informant would become known to other informants. Maake was already an informant.  He had nothing more to revealto anybody.  He didn't  learn anything more from the interrogationabout the activities   of the Security Branch and other informants. So why was it necessary to kill him?

MR VAN VUUREN: I have  already said that we  thought thatMaake was a double agent after the interrogation and having identifiedMakope, who brother was a trained ANC terrorist in Lusaka, wecontinued with the interrogation.   We were no longer able totrust him.   He was an arms courier and with regard to Sefola,who was the kingpin of this entire cell, and was involved withlimpet and landmine explosions and the death of police officersin Mamelodi and the use of landmines in Mamelodi.  Maake was involvedin the activities of this cell.  He was one of the pawns in thiscell and that is why we decided to eliminate him.

MR CURRIN: ... collected Makope and taken him for interrogationin this open lot on the premises of PPC, and  you said it wason the premises of PPC.

MR VAN VUUREN: That is correct.

MR CURRIN: Maybe before I get to that.  How did you gainaccess to those premises.

MR VAN VUUREN: I grew  up in that area and as a boy Ioften shot game there.  There were 4-foot wires but there wasalso a gate I can go in through.   There was no security.  PPCdid not know anything about it at all.  If you knew how to getin there you could only drive in.

MR CURRIN: Why did you follow the procedure of interrogationand then leaving them there and going home and
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coming back the next morning?  Why didn't continue with the interrogationuninterrupted?  What was the purpose?

MR VAN VUUREN: We first had to go and find out whetherthey were talking the truth because they could give us names of people who did not even exist.  That's why we  went back everytime to find out.  At the main office we looked into the filesand found out if it was really true and what was going on.

MR CURRIN: You said that Maake told you about his involvementin terrorist deeds and so on.  Have you any specific recollectionof what he was involved in?

MR VAN VUUREN: He brought terror arms into the countrywith the vehicle we organised for him and those weapons we neverreceived.  He said that he never brought weapons in but duringthe questioning he did say that he brought weapons into the countryand he handed it over to Makope.

MR CURRIN: ... originally interrogated him?

MR VAN VUUREN: Never.  When he came back from traininghe never said that he brought weapons into the country.

MR CURRIN: ... go to pains to talk about the fact thatyou left food and water for them and there was a zozo-hut where they might sleep.   What was the relevance of that evidence?

MR VAN VUUREN: I can only say that we treated them humanely.

MR CURRIN: ... shocking them with a generator for an hour,to make it humane you say that you left them food, water and azozo-hut to sleep in.

MR VAN VUUREN: Your Honour, there is no easy way to killany person.  We bought food for us, for ourselves and we alsobought food for them.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe they hadn't finished with him and they
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wanted him to survive until they'd got all the information.

MR CURRIN: It is unlikely he would have died (inaudible) but I accept that.

MR CURRIN: No, that is untrue.

MR CURRIN: What is onwaar?

MR VAN VUUREN: It is untrue that he would have died fromstarvation.

MR CURRIN: This was the first time that you had interrogatedMakope, is that correct?

MR VAN VUUREN: Yes, that is correct.

MR CURRIN: If one looks at the motivation as to why youinterrogated as part of your  written application, you say thatone of the reasons why we interrogate and torture is to intimidatethe particular activist into refraining from continuing with hisactivities.  Why didn't you rather  use that as an exercise here. It is now the first opportunity, you've never interrogated himbefore, he is plucked out of his home in Mamelodi, why didn'tyou try and make an informer out of him?

MR VAN VUUREN: Your Honour, these people were involvedin landmine explosions, limpet mine explosions, death of policemen. At that stage it was a total onslaught.  It was very difficultto find informants to work for the Security Police and the policemenhad to stay at home to look after their houses.  The people'swar was getting stronger and  stronger and we had to act.

MR CURRIN: ... what we've been told previously.  We'vebeen told that there were many, many informants.  And in fact,yesterday the number of 500 was mentioned just within that  region.

MR VAN VUUREN: That's the truth.
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MR CURRIN: ... to get informers.  I don't understand that.

MR VAN VUUREN: I can only explain by saying that it becamemore and more difficult to get informants.  It was initially veryeasy but it became more and more difficult.  As the people's warwas continuing it became more and more difficult.  People fearedfor their lives and  they were scared because if it was foundout that they were informants, they were necklaced the followingday and their families were killed.  It became more difficultto get informants.

MR CURRIN: But it was information for you.  You stillendeavoured ....(intervention.)

MR VAN VUUREN: That's correct, but I can only say thatthe ANC worked in cells.  There are approximately 5 to 8 peoplein one cell and the one cell did not know about the other cell. To try and get Mr Makope to be an informant to get six or sevenpeople's names was not worth the trouble.  We did not try to gethim as an informant, only to get those six or seven names.

MR CURRIN: And persuade him to become an informant wasbecause he had committed terrorist deeds.  I don't understandthat in the light of what constitutes an Askari.  These are peoplewho were part of the struggle, they were involved in terror deeds,but they were interrogated and they were persuaded to become informants. Why not in this instance?  And the reason I put the questionto you is that you had power of life and death over these threeindividuals and I am putting it to you that one really has tochoose between a few evils and I am questioning why you didn'tfirst try an alternative evil into persuading them to become informants and persuading them to assist you in the course
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of your interrogation.  Why didn't you just decide in the firstinstance to kill them?

MR VAN VUUREN: Your Honour, I can only say that Mr Makopeand Mr Maake were in a specific cell and the moment we gainedthem as informants, the struggle was at that stage very serious.  The moment we  gained them as informants  the chances wouldhave been very good that they could tell Sefola and that he couldtell others that they were now informants.  We did not try torecruit them;  they were  involved in very bad crimes and we didnot try to recruit them.