Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR PIGOU: . . . 19th February in Page 122, Katiza's Journey, you say that in an incident where you've been taken by Frank Chikane Secretary General of the SACC to Hillbrow Hospital, that you said that he had tricked you into going there, he had persuaded you to go and see doctors but that Chikane had tricked me, I was under guard there by two police with rifles.
 When you were taken from the house of Miranda Harris to by Frank Chikane to the hospital were you not under the impression that the police were looking for you at this stage?

<UNKNOWN>: No, I was under no such impression.

MR PIGOU: Was it your belief Mr Cebukhulu that Mr Frank Chikane actually handed you over to the police, without your consent, without you being party to that?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes.

MR PIGOU: Frank Chikane in a public address to the media, I think it was on the same day or the next day said that you were willing to make a statement to the police and that this had been voluntary. Would you disagree with that?

<UNKNOWN>: That is not true.

MR PIGOU: I just want to move on to an incident . . .

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying no it was not like that or no I do agree?

<UNKNOWN>: I think if I can refer to the statement I can be in a better position.

MR PIGOU: The problem Chair is that the statement doesn't reflect really enough of the information which is contained . . .

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just ask the question again in a way that makes it clear when he says "No" what he is saying "No" to.

MR PIGOU: Certainly. Frank Chikane took you to the hospital where you were subsequently arrested. You were not, did you think when you were taken to the hospital that you would be arrested?

<UNKNOWN>: No, I didn't know.

MR PIGOU: Frank Chikane says you were willing to make a statement to the police, that is not true?

<UNKNOWN>: That is not true.

MR PIGOU: Did you give an interview who 1990, did you give an interview to a BBC journalist, John Carlin, in connection with the death of Maxwell Madondo.

UNKNOWN: This is your last question, it is twenty past.

MR PIGOU: Well, if you would like it to be my last question, I will make it may last question. I could go on.

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, I am sure you could, thank you for your co-operation. Go ahead, but don't try me too hard.

MR PIGOU: No. Did you provide in the trial of the people that were accused of killing Mr Madondo, did you provide the defence with a statement in which you said that you had attended a meeting in the Mandela household where a decision had been taken to kill Lerathodi . . . and Sibisi . . . (indistinct) and that you had gone with Killer and Maxwell Madondo to carry out this task, but it had gone wrong and Madondo had subsequently been killed by Mr Sponge . . .(indistinct) did you give the defence in that particular case that statement.

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, I did.

MR PIGOU: One last question Dr Boraine. How many statements have you given to the SAP and now I am talking about the South African Police and not the new South African Police Service during the time that you were staying in Winnie Mandela's house. How many statements did you give to the SAP during that period from August 1988 through to February 1991.

<UNKNOWN>: I don't remember.

MR PIGOU: Was it more than one?

<UNKNOWN>: That's why I said I don't remember.

MR PIGOU: Thank you Mr Chair.

<UNKNOWN>: Where you ever any informer for the police either in Kwa Zulu Natal or in . . . Yes, or no.

<UNKNOWN>: No.

MR JOSEPH: There was a rumour that you were brought from Hammersdale to Soweto and your move was facilitated by the police. What is your reaction to that?

<UNKNOWN>: Hammersdale, I was working with the police, that is not true.

MR JOSEPH: There is a rumour that you were brought from there to Soweto by the police. What is your reaction to that. You were into Mrs Madikazela Mandela's household by the police? Feel free to speak in Zulu. That is fine. When you were brought to President Chiluba where you saw Mrs Emma Nicholson, at that stage how long were you in prison in Zambia? Could be approximate.

<UNKNOWN>: I think it was about eight months.

MR JOSEPH: I put it to you that is there a possibility that you were so desperate to get out of prison in Zambia that you exagerated your version regarding the involvement of Mrs Madikizela Mandela in the murder of Stompie. That she in fact stabbed Stompie. What is your reaction to that? A number of other people talking about Mrs Madikizela Mandela being present when Stompie was assaulted, starting the assaults but you are the only person who states that you saw Mrs Madikizela Mandela actually stabbing Stompie.
...said the same thing as you regarding the stabbing of Stompie?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I don't know what I can do in order for you to believe that I am speaking the truth.  I am telling you she killed him.

MR VALLY: Mr Cebekhulu did you get any money for writing this book, or for helping Mr Bridgeland write the book?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No.

MR VALLY: There are a number of statements in this affidavit of Ms Nicholson and you have given us a confirmatory affidavit thereto.  I am going to ask Ms Nicholson the same question, but are all the statements yours, because you are merely confirming Ms Nicholson's affidavit?  Do you know the affidavit I am talking about?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No unless you show it to me or you tell me which one you are referring to.

MR VALLY: Maybe I should just save this for Ms Nicholson just now because there are some details here.  I have one last question.  The police investigation into the murder of Dr Asvat, there is a statement in there that Mr Thulani Dlamini alleged that you were present in the surgery when Dr Asvat was murdered, what's your response to that?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I was not present when Dr Asvat was killed.

MR VALLY: Thank you, I have no further questions of Mr Cebekhulu.  Just a few questions of Ms Emma Nicholson.

UNKNOWN: Alright, obviously this will be a lot...

MR VALLY: A lot shorter.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

MR VALLY: Ms Nicholson do you have any legal training?

EMMA NICHOLSON: I beg your pardon?

MR VALLY: Do you have any legal training?

EMMA NICHOLSON: I have no legal training.

MR VALLY: Regarding the circumstances in which you met Mr Cebekhulu in Zambia and subsequently assisted him, especially with regards to the various countries that refused him asylum do you have any documentary evidence which will be of assistance to us?

EMMA NICHOLSON: Yes.

MR VALLY: We would appreciate it if you would let us have copies of that.

EMMA NICHOLSON: I will let you have copies of all of it.

MR VALLY: As regards your affidavit, I am talking about, I think it's only one affidavit in your name.

EMMA NICHOLSON: Yes.

MR VALLY: Are all the statements therein, except the fact of your name and your meeting with President Chiluba, I am talking about paragraphs 1, 2, 3 and 4, and some other more general paragraphs, but are all the factual allegations in the paragraphs those of Mr Cebekhulu or both yours and Mr Cebekhulu's?

EMMA NICHOLSON: Mr Cebekhulu used me as a scribe.  Zulu is not a regular language in the United Kingdom and while his speaking and comprehension of English it seems very good for a non-first language person at English, his writing is very, very fragmentary indeed.  I found when he arrived in England eventually that the letters I had received from him, from Sierra Leone, had not in fact been written by him personally, they had been dictated and that is how he used me for this affidavit.  I discussed with the lawyer whether it would be proper under such circumstances to use the first pronoun and we both decided with the absolute  clarity to show that I had been a scribe it would be improper to do so, and it was best under the third person so that this explanation could be given.  It was for absolute clarity.