Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-03-26

ADV PRIOR: Are you able to say within your camp, within your grouping there in Butterworth, was there an identifiable faction with any person being a leader of that group, who showed dissatisfaction and was angry with the news that now they had to stop fighting, stop the killing and go to the ballot box?  Are you able to assist us?

XHOLILE TJABANE: That didn't - that wasn't clear, but although you can discuss something and agree but it takes time to convince people, but nobody showed any opposition.

ADV PRIOR: Well then we come to another point.  You say it was difficult to break up the camp, people required funds or finance to return to their homes, is that correct?

XHOLILE TJABANE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Now who was supplying the funds, or what was the plan, how were those funds to be obtained?

XHOLILE TJABANE: We'd go to business people and ask for money.

ADV PRIOR: Are you aware whether any operation such as the repossession units had carried out in the past, whether money or property was still taken by force in order to fund the return to home by some of the cadres?  Are you aware of that?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, but in my camp that didn't happen.  I didn't have the repossession unit in my camp.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, but Mr Ncamazana and his comrades on their own version, took the vehicle belonging to the deceased at the Bahai Church - you deny having received it, but they took the vehicle ostensibly for APLA.  And in the judgment at page 5, that is Mr Justice Dlodlo, his summary of the evidence was that Palapala said on arriving at Butterworth
"A report was made to their commander, Xholile Tjabane and the Jetta car and "buti" were shown to the commander, who congratulated them on their successful operation."
Is that correct?

XHOLILE TJABANE: No, that is not correct.

ADV PRIOR: He goes on to say
"They used the vehicle when they went to a police station to rob it of firearms."
Were you aware that that occurred, that a police station was robbed of firearms?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, I heard that after that mission, but I didn't know about it before.

ADV PRIOR: You call it a mission, why do you use that expression?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I'm used to those terms of calling the operations missions.

ADV PRIOR: Well when you learnt of the attack at Bahai Church and given the fact that you had told your camp that the armed struggle was over, did you take any steps against these people?  What did you say to them, did you remonstrate with them, did you try and discipline them in any way?  Was it possible to do that?  Explain that to us please.

XHOLILE TJABANE: What I did I talked to them about what they did and I told them that that was not a correct thing to do so they must not do such a thing again.  I told them that we are preparing for people to go back to their homes, we're organising funds for them to go back to their homes.

ADV PRIOR: Well did they agree after reporting to you after Bahai, and as you say you remonstrated or you indicated to them that that was not necessary that behaviour, not required of them?  Did they acknowledge what you were saying to them or did they indicate to you that they were going to continue nevertheless?

XHOLILE TJABANE: They looked as if they agreed with what I was saying to them at the time, as if they were not going to do such a thing again.

ADV PRIOR: Then you heard about the police station and the weapons that were taken from the police station, is that correct?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Where, in Willowvale?

ADV PRIOR: Unfortunately I don't know.  I see Advocate Collett indicates that it was Willowvale.  Well did you ever see those weapons that they obtained there?

XHOLILE TJABANE: No, I didn't see any weapons.  I was arrested.  I didn't see any weapons.

ADV PRIOR: Were you arrested ...(intervention)

ADV GCABASHE: Paddy, could I just ask.
	Do you know who authorised that mission, the police station mission?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I think the people who were leading the operation - there were no members of the camp that were involved in that operation, it was just people that I trained and after I told them that the armed struggle was disbanded they did that on their own.

ADV PRIOR: Did you know Africa TNT, someone by the name of TNT.

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: Was he the unit commander of Mr Ncamazana's group?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Can you maybe just explain for us - I may have the wrong impression in my mind about this camp, possibly from my experience, could you describe it to the Committee, how was it constructed?  Was it a camp as we know it if we see a film about the army, does it have a fence around it, does it have a parade ground?  And I'm talking about a camp in the conventional sense.  Could you possibly just help me.

XHOLILE TJABANE: It was a camp without a fence.  We were staying in that house as soldiers of APLA.

ADV PRIOR: So it was a structure, a house that was used to accommodate these comrades, is that correct? - these cadres.

XHOLILE TJABANE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: And after the news that the armed struggle had been suspended, that was in January, was this house still used by people who had belonged to that unit?  Were they allowed to come and go, or were they disciplined, they had to check in with anyone or not?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Because we didn't have enough money to send them at their homes they were staying there, but as the soldiers that were staying there, the discipline was always maintained.

ADV PRIOR: The point is, were they free to come and go as they chose?  For example, Mr Mbambo could have gone back to his home in Mdantsane and if he chose to go back to Butterworth he could have done that, nothing was stopping him.

XHOLILE TJABANE: No, I didn't hear that information that he was going up and down.

ADV PRIOR: No, that's not my question.  Were they able to go backwards and forwards or were they restricted to that house in Butterworth?  And I'm talking specifically during the period March that was just before the election.

XHOLILE TJABANE: They were supposed to stay in one place so that, until we get money to send them in their homes.  They were not allowed to go up and down.

ADV PRIOR: Alright.  At page 369 of the transcript, Mr Mbambo told the Committee in response to a question by his counsel, that you were the person who provided them with firearms.

XHOLILE TJABANE: I don't know Mbambo so I didn't give him any weapon.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you go on to that, can I come back to this.  You've said
"They were supposed to stay in one place, not allowed to come and go."
I thought you told us that they came back from Bahai because Dumisani knew that there were still people staying in the house?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, he knew that.

CHAIRPERSON: But how did he come to leave to go to Bahai and then come back and stay there again, when you've just told us they were not allowed to come and go?  Who gave him permission to do this?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I don't know how that happened because there were camp commanders that were looking after the forces.  I don't know how he got back to the camp.  That is why when they came back from the Bahai operation I told them that people must stay in the camp until we find funds and then someone who had already left must not come back to the camp.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how many camps did you have?

XHOLILE TJABANE: One.

CHAIRPERSON: You just had the one camp with 30 to 35 people in it, that was the structure that you commanded, is that so?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how many camp commanders were there for this one camp?

XHOLILE TJABANE: There was only one camp commander.

CHAIRPERSON: And how many regional commanders were there for this one camp?

XHOLILE TJABANE: One regional commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Carry on, Mr Prior.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Now did you know Mr Palapala?