Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-06

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I had just reported this to them and it would be up to them what next step had to be taken.

MR BERGER: The third structure in the hostel, the hit squads, do you recall that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, I do not recall that.

MR BERGER: Were there any hit squads at Kwamadala Hostel?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I've never seen them.

MR BERGER: So if I asked you who was the leader of the hit squads at Kwamadala, you wouldn't be able to say, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: Let me read to you what you said at page 5, paragraph 6 of your first affidavit.  You said Damara Tjonjo was the leader of the hit squads from Msinga?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Here we are talking about the self protection at Madala Hostel, not hit squads.  The advocate knows this fully well as well.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, you confirmed on Monday that you were happy with the contents of all your affidavits, now this is one of your affidavits.  Your words are that he was the leader of the hit squads from Msinga and you go on to say he was the leader of the hit squad in the Kwamadala Hostel as well.  I do not agree with this word hit squads.  If this is contained in the affidavit it must have been a computer error.

MR BERGER: No, it's no computer error, let me read to you -before I get there - well let me read to you from page 6 paragraph 8 the second part of that paragraph:  "I also saw many weapons during the police operation at the hostel.  When they were attacked, the South African Police came to search the hostel and found a lot of firearms which they confiscated.  No weapons were left which resulted in Vanana Zulu telling us that everybody had to contribute so that more weapons could be bought.  We had to pay R800 per person who were working at the time for these weapons.  There were about 200 - 400 people working at that stage and everybody had to pay otherwise they would have been killed because we were all afraid of the Msinga contingent.  The money was handed to the people from Msinga but I cannot remember seeing the weapons that was bought with this money.  We also had to maintain the people from Msinga.  There were about forty to fifty of them staying in the hostel who were not working and for which we were responsible.  A meeting was called where we were told by Tjonjo who addressed this meeting that they needed the money to buy other firearms.  Now you are talking about a contingent from Msinga.  The contingent that you called the hit squads.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Who called them hit squads, I did not call them hit squads, I have already told you about what I know.

MR BERGER: Why are you running away from the word hit squads, Mr Mthembu?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Because I do not really understand what it means and what it is, not that I'm running away from the word.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, I've noticed often during my questioning you start answering the question before the interpreter has finished interpreting, you understand English, don't you?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I do not understand it well, I'm not a learned person, I don't have my matric.

MR BERGER: Your counsel asked you - in fact read out a document, a paragraph from a document, it's at page 41, a long paragraph where you've said that "I would like to tell the Committee that I would not have done these things" etc etc and you expressed how sorry you were and you confirmed that you wrote that paragraph yourself.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting that the witness typed this himself?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no Chairperson ...[inaudible] that he had written this paragraph himself and his answer was yes.  As I understood it that these were your own words, you wrote these words and they were then typed into this affidavit, isn't that what you said Mr Mthembu?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: It is correct, as I've explained what was written here and what I wrote here was because I was actually following or trying to follow the English language as it is written, maybe I committed some mistakes in the process, I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: I think in fairness to the witness he should draw - take his attention that in his affidavit he also refers to what is described in the affidavit as a hit squad as a self-protection unit.

MR BERGER: Yes, Chairperson, I know that.

CHAIRPERSON: And that occurs at paragraph 11 which is a response to a question dealing with hit squad operations.  Paragraph 11 on page 26, yes, which is a request for further particulars in which is - in your affidavit it is stated that Mr Damara Tjonjo was the leader of the hit squad and then the question is "What hit squad did Mr Tjonjo lead?" and the answer to that is that "Damara Tjonjo was the leader of the self-protection unit."  To make sure that, you know, that this follows.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, do you see paragraph 11 on page 26, in front of you?  You were asked the question "In your affidavit it is stated that Mr Damara Tjonjo was a member of hit squads, what hit squads did he lead?"

MR BRINK: I'm sorry, Mr Chairman, it appears the applicant doesn't have a copy of the - what's being referred to - I'll lend him our copy.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you be so kind enough so as to lend him your copy if you don't mind?

MR BRINK: Just give him your reference again please, Mr Berger?

MR LAX: And just to clarify, Mr Mthembu, that's in reply to a question, it's Lax here talking, it's in reply to a question which is on page 19 so just that you can connect the question with the answer.  If you look at page 19 you'll see paragraph 11.1 "What hit squads did Mr Tjonjo lead i.e. who was members of.."

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR LAX: I beg your pardon.  Then the answer is then on page 26, so just to give you the full picture.  You understand?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I do understand.

MR LAX: Do you see there Mr Mthembu, you say in paragraph 11.1 in response to the question?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I see.

MR BERGER: You've already read paragraph 11.1, is that right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes I've read it.

MR BERGER: Do you understand what it says?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: And the question you can see on page 19 paragraph 11.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes I do.

MR BERGER: The first question 11.1 - "What hit squads did Mr Tjonjo lead i.e. who was the members of these hit squads?"
Your answer:  "Mr Damara Tjonjo was the leader of the self-protection units, I did not know the real names of the other people because they were not staying at Kwamadala."

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: So what you are saying is that the hit squads and the self-protection units are one and the same thing?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: What I can explain, Mr Berger, is that this word hit squads I do not really understand, I only know of self-protection units.

MR BERGER: I've got two questions - why did you use the word hit squads twice in your first affidavit and why did you not in paragraph 11.1 say that the use of the word hit squads is a mistake?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger ...inaudible] in his evidence, when you asked him about that, he says it was a computer error and I think he went on to say that even the Minister of Religion does make a mistake?

MR BERGER: Minister of Religion?

CHAIRPERSON: Minister of Religion, yes.

MR BERGER: I missed that Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what he said - the explanation that he's given us for the occurrence of the word hit squad in his affidavit is that it's a computer error.