Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-15

MR LAX: And in March 1988, your mother was told by a certain policeman that they were going to bring Bulelo to be a State witness against her?

MS NGONO: They said in this case, in this particular case - they said that they can bring Bulelo to be a State witness in that case, in my mother's case and then my mother said that that depended on him.

MR LAX: Did your mother ever have a case?

MS NGONO: Yes, the one she was detained for, for co-operating or working together with the cadres.

CHAIRPERSON: Was she prosecuted when she was detained for working with the cadres, in other words, appeared in court, charges put to her, that kind of thing?

MS NGONO: Yes, she appeared in court.

MR LAX: ;   Did the case proceed against her so that witnesses were called and so on?

MS NGONO: There were no witnesses because all of them were arrested with the cadres that she was working with.

MR LAX: And Bulelo never testified in that case?

MS NGONO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Finish off the sentence.  No, they did not bring him.

MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson, I have no further questions.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, just one question.  Were you told why you were excluded from the discussions when Mr Bulelo visited your mother?

MS NGONO: No, he did not tell us.

MR SIBANYONI: Also do you know why the photo was not shown to you in person?

MS NGONO: I do not know.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.  No further questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, you said you had something else.

MR LAX: Thanks Chair, sorry I just forgot the one aspect and that was, this Mr Bulelo, is he still around?

MS NGONO: Yes, he is still around, he's still alive.

MR LAX: And is he still a policeman, or does he still work there?  I don't know if he's a policeman or not, but does he still work at Louis le Grange police station?  is he a policeman?  Let me ask you that question.

MS NGONO: He is on retirement.

MR LAX: Thank you.  But you know where to find him if you have to?

MS NGONO: Yes, I know.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Just lastly.  When did your mother die?

MS NGONO: January 2000.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Anything that arises from the questions from the bench, Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: Just two, Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Ms Ngono, while you were at school in Lesotho, did you develop friendships with other cadres who were known to your brother?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR MALINDI: Is that part of the reason why you visited frequently to where they stayed?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR MALINDI: In 1990 when Mr Bulelo came to your house and spoke to your mother, how old were you?

MS NGONO: I cannot remember, maybe I was 27 years old.

MR MALINDI: May your age have been a reason why Mr Bulelo only wanted to speak to your mother?

MR VISSER: Chairperson really, that's ... to put to a witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Rephrase your question.

MR MALINDI: Chairperson I'll leave it at that, nothing will really turn on it at the end of the day.  Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR MALINDI: I say Chairperson, nothing much will turn on it at the end of the day, I'm prepared to drop it, thank you.

MR LAX: This statement says that you're 34 years old, is that correct?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR LAX: So obviously in 1990, you would have been 24 years old.

CHAIRPERSON: He is good in Arithmetic, he revised it last night.

MS NGONO: You remember he went terribly wrong yesterday.  He said in a week, ...(indistinct) out of five days, I said:  "Oh, how many days does a week have?"  You may proceed, or are you finished, Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: No further questions Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser anything arising?

MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson, there are a few issues that now arise, with your permission.

MR VISSER: Let me perhaps start this way, you say that you made friends with cadres who were friends of your brother, Bulelo, while you were in Lesotho in 1987, that is correct, isn't it?

MS NGONO: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Did you have a relationship with any of them that was more than just a friendship?  And I want to tell you that I'm not prying into your private affairs, what I want to know is whether you sometimes went to the houses where your brother lived, not to visit him, but to visit someone else, did that happen?

MS NGONO: No, it was not beyond friendship.

MR VISSER: But did you sometimes go and visit the cadres without specifically intending to go and visit your brother?

MS NGONO: The reason why I went there was because of my brother.

MR VISSER: Well you see, you also told us that you went there to go and help them out, to do their washing, isn't that so?

MS NGONO: Yes, that is so.

MR VISSER: So that's a reason why you went there, which wasn't specifically to visit your brother, isn't that correct?

MS NGONO: Even when I did not have money, I would go there.

MR VISSER: Well alright, whatever that means.  But is it true that you told this Committee earlier today that your brother stayed in many places when he was in Lesotho?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: Does that not mean that he didn't have a fixed home where he stayed most of the time, he was moving around?

MS NGONO: He did not have a fixed place.

MR VISSER: Was he moving around a lot?

MS NGONO: Yes, he would go to the university and he'd move around.

MR VISSER: And would it be fair to say when you went to visit him you never knew whether you would find him where you went, or whether you wouldn't find him there?

MS NGONO: Yes, but I knew that I would see him because he would visit Lindelwa.

MR VISSER: So did you always go to Lindelwa?

MS NGONO: Yes, I would go to Lindelwa.

MR VISSER: Was that the only place where you visited your brother?

MS NGONO: Even the place that he was staying, I would visit there.

MR VISSER: So you went to visit your brother at two places, is that your evidence, in Lesotho?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: How did the whole issue of either collaboration or working with the police, come to be discussed with you by the cadres in Lesotho in 1988?  How did it come about?

MS NGONO: It was when we were looking for him, when he was arrested.

MR VISSER: Did somebody then say:  "Perhaps he's turned, perhaps he's become an informer of the South African police"?  Is that what happened?

MS NGONO: They knew that people were tortured and when you were being tortured you divulged certain information.

MR VISSER: I see.  Alright.  Now you see you said when Commissioner Lax asked you questions, I made a note of one of your answers and that is the reason why I'm asking you all these questions.  You said between September and February, when you say your brother wasn't there, when you visited the house where he lived, you were asked what was the purpose of those visits, do you remember that?  Do you remember you were asked that?

MS NGONO: I said that sometimes when I did not have money I would go there, even when Bulelo was not there, they would give me some money and they would visit me even when Bulelo was not there.

MR VISSER: Ms Ngono, please listen to my question.  Do you remember that Mr Lax asked you, between September and February when you visited the house where he lived, your brother lived, what the purpose was of those visits, do you remember that?

MS NGONO: Mpilo was there in that house, so I would go and visit him.

MS NGONO: You would go and visit him, not your brother?  You weren't looking for your brother, you went to look for Mpilo, is that what you're saying?  The purpose was to go and visit Mpilo, is that what you're saying?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR VISSER: And you also said that you did not ask the cadres where your brother was.

MS NGONO: I did not ask them.

MR VISSER: Lastly, we never heard before about this piece of evidence that Bulelo was going to be used against your mother as a State witness.  Is that something you told your legal representatives about?