Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I have just heard recently that Botha had been shot.

MR MILLER: When?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: This year.

MR MILLER: So, the following day you returned to the surgery, this place that had been pointed out to you?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, that is true.

MR MILLER: What time was that that you went to the surgery?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: It was during the day.  We had to book first.  I was the one who wanted the card and asked Mbatha if he had a card and found out that Mbatha had his card.  We went straight to the surgery.
 When we got there, we sat down and there were quite a number of patients in the waiting room and we got inside as well and sat down.  And the one who was not feeling well was Mbatha.  And he was sitting in the waiting room.  There was a lady who was registering or admitting patients there.
 I sat there, I did not go on ahead, but Mbatha went on ahead to give the details as a patient.

MR MILLER: You said I heard a moment ago that Mbatha had a card.  Is that right, did I hear you correctly?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR MILLER: Where did he get this card from?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: It is up to him, I really don't know.  We just talked about the card and he appeared to be having a card.

MR MILLER: What sort of card are we talking about?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: It is an appointment card, Doctor's appointment card.

MR MILLER: For Dr Asvat?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, that is true.

MR MILLER: So, you say that after a while you sat there in the surgery in the waiting room, waiting and then what happened?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Mbatha came back after he had registered himself with a piece of paper.  Because there were quite a number of patients, we told the lady who was admitting the patients that we are still going to buy some cigarettes and we will be back.  And we left indeed.
 We went to a park there, we sat there.  And I took out the gun and as I was trying to shoot, the gun couldn't function well.

MR MILLER: Yes, and then?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I wondered and even said this gun is not functioning.  We had to go back now.  We went back to get another gun.  We were looking for Botha at first.  We were in Zone 1, at the garage in Meadowlands.  We went to the hostel.  Fortunately we found Botha there with Kgase fixing the car.
 We left with him to a certain place there in Orlando.  I don't remember  quite well if it was Orlando and we got another gun.  We parked our car outside and Botha got inside for quite some time and he came out and told us that everything is fine and I have another gun now.  It was not as big as the other gun that we had at first.
 We got inside the car, we drove back and he dropped us at the bottle store and Swala left.  And we went back to that place.  It was around half past two or three, I am not quite too sure.  We got there, we got inside and the patients were no longer as many.  We only saw two ladies who were in a critical stage.
 Fortunately when we got inside, Mbatha went on, was told to go inside, to see the Doctor and I was waiting in the waiting room and suddenly I heard a gun shot, twice.  And the security door was locked.
 After some time Mbatha appeared next to the security door and suddenly I saw the security door opening.  I got inside myself to see as to what was happening.  I saw this gentleman laying down and we left the place.
 Outside we saw an ambulance and the lady who was working inside there, got outside and was screaming outside for help and we fled the scene.   They tried to chase us and Mbatha shot, shot right to the sky, a threatening shot and we ran and fled.
 And they tried to chase us, the ambulance men, but they could not catch up with us.  We got to as far as Diepkloof, it was around half past seven and we left for Mzamomhle.  We took Botha and went to the house where we would be given our money, our pay and we left.
 We parked our car outside and Swala got inside  and he was supposed to be getting inside to get some money as we have already carried the mission and he got outside to tell us that the lady was not inside.  And we started now complaining and said Botha, how can you do this to me.  Because we were supposed to be paid now, we have carried out the task but it is not appearing as if we will be paid and we (indistinct) we will go and come back the following day.
 We parted ways that evening.  I went to my accommodation to the place where I was staying.  The following day we planned that we will meet and go back again to claim our money.  And he insisted that we will get that money and we parted ways with Botha.
 The following day, the morning, after listening to the news, we found out that the police are in search of the people who killed the Doctor.  We left, I tried to hide and I came across another newspaper and saw a picture outside and my picture outside, that was a drawn picture.
 It was not my picture, quite well, there were some differences according to the picture that appeared on the newspaper.  There were incisions on my face, but very short incisions.  The difference in the identikit was that the incisions were longer, but what surprised me was that I saw my name and I got very scared at that stage when I saw my name and I decided not to walk around the streets during the day.
 I went to seek a hiding place.  I hid myself in that place.  I did not trust anyone and I was running away from the police as well as the rest and I refrained from moving around during the day, I only walked around during the night.
 I stayed for quite some time in that place and we lost each other with Mbatha and I did not know at that stage as to where Mbatha is.  I began not to trust Mbatha and I kept on hiding even from Mbatha himself.
 This went on for quite some time.  And we went to Kliptown, that is myself and Mbatha.  At that time the police were hot on our trail.  We went to Kliptown until late - round about half past six or seven o'clock and when we came back, looking for Botha, we just couldn't get hold of Botha because he had left.  We waited for quite some time in vain.
 Mbatha went his different way, I went my different way as well, because I did not want Mbatha to know as to where I stayed.  On a Sunday I went to (indistinct) and I stayed with another home boy of mine, who was a KwaZulu Natal policeman.  We stayed there, we had some drinks, alcoholic beverages.  I left him, I went out looking for my girlfriend.
 And she was not at her place, I was told that she had been arrested by the police.  And I realised that I was no longer safe.  I left the place as quick as I arrived because I did not want the police to arrest me.  A few days went by, let's just say that very same Sunday I went back to Diepkloof and when I got to Diepkloof I got wind that my brother had been taken away by the police.
 They said he should point out as to where I was.  I also ran away from there and I did not want to go to Mzamomhle.  I wanted to look for Botha so that I could get my money and get out of the scene.

MR MILLER: Sorry Mr Dlamini, could we just cut this a little bit short please.  Eventually you were arrested, is that correct?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, I was arrested.

MR MILLER: And did you ever find Botha or get your money?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, I did not get even a cent out of that money, I was just convicted.

MR MILLER: Did you steal R145-00, did you or Mbatha steal R145-00 from the Doctor's surgery?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, we never stole any money.  I personally never stole any money and I never saw Mbatha stealing any.

MR MILLER: Now, how do you feel about what you have done, is it a good thing or not?