Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MS PATEL: Okay.   From what you can recall, immediately after the incident, the shooting had taken place, you were all under the bridge and you say that Sgt Radebe then came and reported to Nortje that a shooting had taken place and he wasn't certain whether anybody was injured or not and then you all moved off to C R Swart from there, is that correct?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is how I recall it, yes Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: Okay.  If I can take you to Nortje's application to us, it is part of the Bundle, it is page 23, paragraph 11, he states here that they, and he is obviously referring to Radebe and the rest
"... they told me that they had shot five people and that they did not know whether all of them had been killed."
	Now if the shooting had taken place from outside of this room or the shack that it was, and the members had left immediately, how would they have known that five people were shot at, without ...

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: I cannot comment on that Mr Chairman, because I wasn't at that stage there.

MS PATEL: But you are certain that all that Radebe said to Mr Nortje was that there was a shoot-out and they don't know?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: As far as I can recall, yes, those were the words Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: All right, and just, you don't know, you don't have any recollection of Charles Ndaba?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: No Mr Chairman, only when it came up was when I discussed it with Willie the day before yesterday, before we came down, it is the first time that the name came up.

MS PATEL: Because it appears that the Charles Ndaba that he refers to, that Willie refers to in his application to us, is quite possibly a mistake and that it is meant to be Charles Ngcobo, which is the person who is referred to by almost everybody else in the papers before us?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: That can be so Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: Do you recall whether there was ever a discussion, sometime after this incident, about Aubrey Mogadi having become nervous during the operation and he let his Uzi firearm go off by mistake and that is what started the skirmish?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: No Mr Chairman, not that I can recall.

MS PATEL: Do you recall whether Aubrey Mogadi would have had an Uzi weapon with him?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: No Mr Chairman, I cannot say.

MS PATEL: Sorry, you cannot say whether he would or wouldn't have?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: No, I cannot say which weapon he had at that stage when the shooting commenced.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Would askaris generally be issued with Uzi weapons, from your knowledge?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: It all depends on what type of operation - they could have been issued with anything.  But Aubrey wasn't an askari, he was a member of the Force.

MS PATEL: Oh, all right, okay.  Would the normal member of the Force, would he have been issued with an Uzi weapon?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: Yes Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: As part of his normal duties?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: No, not normal duties, but it is normal practice in our unit that every vehicle gets a certain weaponry for certain operations, because we did urban terrorism and also out in the "platteland", so each bus would have been issued a certain type of weapons to comply with the operation that is on the go, Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: Where would these weapons come from, would it have been brought with from Vlakplaas or would you have gotten them in Durban?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: That would have been a Vlakplaas issue, Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: And who would have arranged that, to whom would an application have to be made for the issue of those other weapons?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: No, there was no application to be made because that was a standard issue to every bus, Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: By every bus, you mean every vehicle that departs?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: Every kombi.

MS PATEL: Every kombi that departs?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: Yes, the driver would have been responsible for the weapons and ammunition, Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Just generally, what other types of weapons would have been issued?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: It could have been a shotgun, it could have been Uzi's, it could have been grenades, it could have been smoke-grenades, it could have been teargas.

MS PATEL: And would that type of weaponry be taken with if the intention is just an infiltration?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: It would always be in the vehicle Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: Oh, regardless of the nature of the operation, that is standard issue that you take with when you leave Vlakplaas, is that what you are saying?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct, yes Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: Would those weapons be kept in the vehicle at all times?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: An Uzi, is this a so-called terrorist weapon?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: No Mr Chairman, it is a South African standard issue weapon, it is a standard issue at the police and the army, it is a 9mm weapon.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.   You don't know what weapons the rest of the group that went into the infiltration, what weapons they had in their possession?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: If I may speculate, it will be their own ...

MS PATEL: No, I don't want you to speculate.

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: The weapons that they would have had with them, would have been their issued SAP weapons, Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: Okay.   And the standard issue would be what, a 9mm?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: A 9mm Baretta or a 9mm P38.

MS PATEL: P38?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct, Walter P38.

MS PATEL: Okay, can I - in this operation, who would have been in control of the weapons for the van that you were in at the bridge?  Would it be Willie?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: Willie Nortje, yes Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: Okay, and the other van, or the other - there were two other vehicles?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: The kombi would have been Simon Radebe.

MS PATEL: Would he have been in charge?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: Because his vehicle, he was in charge of his vehicle and he would have been in charge of the weapons as well.

MS PATEL: Okay, and there was one more vehicle on the scene.  You said there were three vehicles that departed?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: The third one is, I have been thinking Mr Chairman, I can't place it properly.  I cannot recall exactly what happened to that vehicle.

MS PATEL: Are you saying it might not have been there at all?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: I would actually rather, yes, because I have been thinking and I can only recall one vehicle.

MS PATEL: Okay.   This operation took place in the early hours of the morning?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: You were given instructions by, your group was given instructions to leave the Durban area that very day?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: Did Willie and Sgt Radebe depart with you?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: I cannot recall that Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: Do you know whether they departed at all?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: I am quite sure they departed, but they did not depart with me, I think I left in a different vehicle, Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: As far as you can recall, was there any reason given for your departure?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: Not as far as I can recall Mr Chairman.

MS PATEL: Did you not find it strange that you came there to assist in tracing persons who had killed policemen and here after a very short stay, after one aborted infiltration, you are asked to leave the area, did you not find that strange?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: No, it is not strange Mr Chairman, that happened on a regular basis.

CHAIRPERSON: Also where the members acted in self-defence?

NICOLAAS VERMEULEN: I don't think that would have been the case, but as I have been asked, it was not strange that you were only deployed for one day and then you were removed right to the other side of the earth, that was not strange at that time.