Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

MRS NHLAYISI: Further in your supplementary affidavit, you mention that on one occasion, you remember that you were in charge of a house where weapons were stored, is that correct?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: Yes, that is correct.  It happened one day, although I cannot remember the date and the time, there was a funeral in the township of Tokoza.  The people, a lot of people attended the funeral and I was there, in charge of making sure that the place was safe and I was in this house, number A15 Legone Street.  I was told that there were weapons there.
	For in case of eminent attack, I would be able to use those weapons.  In this house, number A15 Legone Street, there were AK47's, three of them loaded.  They were in that house that I was safeguarding.

MRS NHLAYISI: Mr Tshabangu, is there any other incident that you can remember for which you wish to apply for amnesty, except those that you have mentioned now?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: No, there is no other incident.

MRS NHLAYISI: Okay, let's go back to the first incident, the person you say you knew him as Khumalo.  Do you know his full identity like names and things, were you in a position to get hold of that or you only know him as Khumalo because he said he was the brother to Bishop Khumalo?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: We did not get his name.  We heard that from him that he was from the Khumalo family and he was related to Bishop Khumalo.  Till today, we did not get his name.

MRS NHLAYISI: Mr Chairman, that is all for now, I have nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MRS NHLAYISI

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I don't have any further questions.  I must apologise I was referring you to page 90 and 91 of the additional supplement, which is actually incorrect.  I was actually referring you to Mr Mbongeni Otto Tshabangu, which is actually before you.  You can see it is the same surname, so I do apologise profusely Mr Chairman.  It is actually the additional statement of Mr Mbongeni Otto Tshabangu.
	It is not the same Tshabangu which is appearing on page 90 to 91.  I do apologise.  I don't have any further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, where would we find the one that we were supposed to be looking at?  Exhibit 4?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, if you will allow me, I can hand in a copy of the statement to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Have we not got it?

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes sir, it was handed to you last week in a bundle, but I will ...

CHAIRPERSON: Are we talking about bundle, Exhibit 4?

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: This one?

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes, that is Mbongeni Otto Tshabangu.  The top one was Moses Mduduzi Buboka.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I will give you the correct one just now, that is the correct statement I am referring to now, which my colleague has referred to as well, that is the actual supplementary statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Let's make that Exhibit 5 then.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.   I've got no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair.  Mr Tshabangu, Bonga Nkosi, which area was he a Commander of, just remind me?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: Bonga Nkosi was a Commander at Mandela Section where I was residing.

CHAIRPERSON: The Mandela Section?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Was Mandela Section close to Penduka, that is the Slovo Tambo Section?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: Mandela Section is not far from Tambo Section, Mandela Section, Tambo Section is just after Mandela Section.

ADV GCABASHE: Do you know where this Khumalo victim, this particular person, the deceased, was captured?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: Will you please repeat your question Ma'am?

ADV GCABASHE: The Khumalo that was killed, the victim here, the deceased, where was he captured, do you know?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: No, I don't know.  All I heard is that he was captured next to the bottle store, the bottle store that was next to the Tokoza municipality offices, that was next to Mandela Section where I used to stay.

ADV GCABASHE: You mentioned in your testimony that amongst the things that you discussed, was the fact that IFP members who were captured, should be killed.  Did I get that right?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Was that a general position that was taken by your SDU, vis-a-vis IFP members?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: Yes, that is correct, that was an agreement.

ADV GCABASHE: Would you know if it was also the attitude of all the other SDU formations in Tokoza itself, it was generally know, IFP people will be killed?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: Yes, that was a general feeling in the whole township.  Meetings would be held and it would be discussed that if the IFP member would appear, that person should be killed without asking questions.

ADV GCABASHE: Then finally I didn't get the name of the person who actually shot Khumalo after you had assaulted him.  I just want that name?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: The person who came to me to tell me that he is the one who killed the deceased, his name is Sicelo Welcome Qoka.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you very much.  Thank you Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Where is this Sicelo Welcome Qoka presently?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: He passed away last year if I am not mistaken, the month was May 1998.

MR SIBANYONI: You said this Khumalo was asked and assaulted in that particular house, did he say, was it as a result of the assault that he said he was related to Bishop Khumalo or was that information which he volunteered?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: He said that as he was being assaulted, as he was being asked about his identity.  He said again after he was assaulted, that he was coming from the Khumalo family and he was related to Bishop Khumalo, the leader of the Khumalo gang.

MR SIBANYONI: I heard you talking about a card written Zulu Police.  What was the surname on the card?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: Truly speaking, I did not see what was written.  I did not notice whether he was Khumalo or not, but the only thing that I saw was his photo.  I did not see the surname on the card.

MR SIBANYONI: What eventually happened to the card?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: I don't know what happened to the card, but after some time, I had to leave for home.  I don't know what happened to his card.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tshabangu, as I understand your evidence, you didn't know the deceased was being held at that office, correct?  When you got there, he was already captured?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: Yes, I found him there.  I was told where he was captured.

CHAIRPERSON: And then later you left?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: Yes, I left.

CHAIRPERSON: He was still alive?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: He was still alive, though he was injured, but he was still alive.

CHAIRPERSON: How was he injured?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: What I noticed was that he had a lump on his head and he had a wound on his ribs.  His face was swollen but not badly.

CHAIRPERSON: That wound on his ribs, was it an open wound or a wound caused maybe by blunt force?  What kind of wound was it?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: It was not an open wound, maybe he had some bruises because I kicked him, but it was not an open wound.

CHAIRPERSON: When you left, it didn't look like he was injured such that he could die from it?  Not yet, anyway, correct?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: He was not injured to such an extent that he can even die out of those injuries.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  As I understand it also, you assaulted him.  How did you?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: Yes, I assaulted him.  I first hit him with a stick on his head and I kicked his ribs on the left hand side.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what more?  Anything else?

MBONGENI OTTO TSHABANGU: No, I did that only.  I hit him on his head and after that, I kicked him on his ribs on the left hand side.