Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Again if I would be labelling the issue Honourable Chair.  I think again I did not want to say this but rather let me because Gary Kruser touched on it that until and unless an impression in me then was created that until and unless you had said what Honourable Judge Nugent wanted you to say then that's the attitude with which he treated me, he treated me with contempt.  I concluded then that this is a person who, with due respect to journalists in here, that they listen for what they want to hear and that's the attitude.  I am therefore saying I'm explaining and trying to put into perspective by illustrating to circumstances where and when a person is relaxed and there's gunfire and a situation where a person is under extreme pressure and there's gunfire, my no and my yes I want to believe I thought would be taken in those two different circumstances to put them into their proper perspective.

MR DORFLING: I'm just going to make the statement Mr Beea, I want to put it to you that this is yet another indication of the way in which you fabricate your evidence to fit in with what you want to put forward as having transpired on that day.

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Honourable Chair I don't know if by being given a chance to explain and put things into context is fabricating, if you imply that because I mean I'm saying to you that - and if you look at my statement I don't want to say this because it might be understood out of context, that the Honourable Judge Nugent asked more questions than you combined and that is the attitude with which we - I'm not saying that he should not, but I'm saying the way in which the whole issue was handled I never had an opportunity to explain and try and put things into perspective because I wanted to do so, I was dying to do so, but he asked a question and you answered, if and when you're supposed to there's an intervention or an interjection and another question is posed and you're expected to answer.

MR DORFLING: I just want, in conclusion, to put to you that I'm appearing on behalf of nine objectors who have been injured on the day at the corners of King George and de Villiers Street and I'm not going to put it in all the detail I'm putting it every time, I just want to put to you that those people deny having formed part of any attack on Shell House, they deny that they had any firearms with them at the time when you perceived to be in attack and they will, if called to give evidence in front of this Committee, testify that there was no justification for them being shot at by the ANC guards.

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: If they have to oppose my application I don't see them saying anything contrary to what you've said and I understand that.

MR DORFLING: Can I just understand your answer.  Are you therefore of a different view, are you saying they're not telling the truth if you say that?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: They're not telling the truth Honourable Chair.

MR DORFLING: Can I just clear this up.  Mr Beea you wouldn't know which of the specific marchers I'm acting for, the specific individuals, the nine people you wouldn't know.  Are you really in a position to say that they were indeed acting in such a way so that you could perceive it as an attack.  Can you say that was the situation with relation to those nine individuals?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Just clarity, are you asking me if I know people you are representing?

MR DORFLING: Nine of the people that were injured at the corner of King George and De Villiers Street or in that proximity and I'm asking you can you really deny that those people were not attacking Shell House, without even knowing who they are, who the specific individuals are?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: I cannot confirm that they were part of the march either.

MR DORFLING: I beg your pardon, I did not hear you ... (intervention)

MR LAX: He's saying he can't confirm that they were part of the marchers or not, he doesn't know them obviously.

MR DORFLING: I've got no further questions, thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DORFLING

MR PRETORIUS: May it please the court Mr Chairman.  Mr Beea did you at that stage observe any AK47s amongst the marchers?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: At what stage?

MR PRETORIUS: Just immediately prior to you shooting at the marchers?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: The only AK47 that I mentioned that I had observed is when I was at the 18th floor.  When I was downstairs when people was - when there was fire, no I did not see any AK, I did not see any pistols.

MR PRETORIUS: And you definitely therefore didn't see incidents where the front of the marchers opened and a marcher at the back, or rather the second and third row danced forward, shot with an AK47, danced back waited for a little while then opened again, the crowd would open again and he would dance forward again, shot with the AK47 at the guards and danced back into the crowd.  Is that correct?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: I was there less than a minute and as I say I bumped into fire, I did not see all those things that you refer to.

MR PRETORIUS: Just to get clarity on this, this is now after they have turned the corner of King George and De Villiers Street, that is in King George Street whilst they were charging as you put it.  You never observed that?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: No I did not Chair.

MR PRETORIUS: As far as observation is concerned you were the guard closest to the crowd at that stage.  Is that also correct?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: I don't know that.

MR PRETORIUS: Was there any other ANC guard between you and the crowd?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: The guard could not have been between me and the crowd.  If I may try and illustrate.  This is the pavement of Shell House with the pillars and this is the street, King George, it's the other side of King George where there are shops and other things.  The officers were on this side and the guards were approaching from an angle and the person that I say I remember retreating with me as we shoot was not retreating from this angle, the angle of where the marchers were coming from, but he was retreating with me from this angle so there's no way that there could have been a guard in between me and the marchers, it was the marchers and us.

MR PRETORIUS: What I'm getting at Mr Beea is if one just merely looks at King George Street and we look at the position were you were in King George Street, put it that way, would there be any other guard further up in King George Street towards De Villiers Street?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: I did say that as I was retreating in front of me there was a person that I remember as Thabete.

MR PRETORIUS: Let's approach it from another manner.  You in any event were closer, at least ten metres or so, fifteen or ten metres or five or ten metres, from the guards that were positioned at the corner of King George and Plein Street.  Is that correct?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: The guards - may I ask before I respond to this, I think I missed your point.  May you repeat your question please?

MR PRETORIUS: You were closer if one looks now in the direction of De Villiers Street from where the crowd was approaching, just forget about now the sides of the pavement, I was speaking about the whole street as such.  You were closer to De Villiers Street than the guards who were positioned right at the corner of King George and Plein Street.  Is that correct?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Correct.

MR PRETORIUS: And generally speaking you would have a better viewpoint than they have of the crowd?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Not necessarily.

MR PRETORIUS: Where was the front of the crowd when you started firing at them in relation to the shops that you indicated opposite Shell House in King George Street?