Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1998-01-28

MR VALLY: Mr Kritzinger, on this issue, you make this admissions when you are in court.  We've got a newspaper article and we are trying to find it now which shows Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and my learned friend, Mr Semenya will correct me if I am wrong, which shows Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and Mrs Zinzi Hlongwani Mandela coming to court with a caption which reads "they were cited as State witnesses".
 Mr Semenya on the last occasion raised this, pointed it out to me that while they were named as State witnesses, they hadn't formally given evidence.  You advise me that it is because of admissions which were made.  Were these admissions not only made in court for the first time?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: The formal, whether the formal admissions were made at court, that could be possible after consultations which Mr Seheri had with his legal representative, the fact of the matter is that when it was made, is irrelevant to me at this stage, the fact of the matter is it was made and that is why they did not testify.

MR VALLY: How do you cite a person as a State witness without even having obtained a statement from her?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Mr Chairman, if it was the request of the Attorney General that they had to be summonsed to appear in court without a statement having been obtained from them, I think that it is reasonably unfair to put that question to me.
 I cannot give an explanation on behalf of the Attorney General.  If they were summonsed to be at court without a statement having been obtained from them, I cannot react to this.

MR VALLY: On this issue, my final question.  Since you were the Investigation Officer in the Unit which was and to quote you "responsible for tracking terrorists", did you follow up this investigation at all?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Follow up how?

MR VALLY: ... that you say that Mr Seheri was a trained guerilla, that you found a machine pistol in the house of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, that your job was "tracking terrorists".
 Surely you would want to know who this person was, where he came from, who he had contact with, where he made the contact, weren't there this normal Police follow up in this instance?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I believe that if my memory is correct, that the necessary investigation or follow up investigation was done in this case, to bona fide determine that he was a cadre that was trained overseas.  I think that in the murder docket there would also have been a statement which would have explained this, about a so-called askari who received a statement that he had been trained overseas.

MR VALLY: I am not sure if you have answered my question.  Did you follow up this matter or not in terms of what your mandate within the Security Branch was?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes, I believe I did that.  If I understand your question correctly, I say yes, I did that.

MR VALLY: ... without questioning Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Correct.  I think that I have already explained this to you that she was a high profile person and I would only have interrogated her if I had received the request from the office of the Attorney General.
 I think that my docket was of such a nature that I perhaps did not need her evidence.

MR VALLY: ... the matter of the Makanda brothers.  This was a case which you may recall, was the incident where certain people were allegedly kidnapped, had certain slogans carved into their bodies and battery acid rubbed into those wounds.  Do you recall the case?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: Yes, I can remember such a case where the two young boys, words were carved into their bodies.  I think one of the words was "Viva ANC", I can recall that incident, yes.

MR VALLY: And where was this incident alleged to have taken place, this assault on these two youths?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: If I can remember correctly, it occurred at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house.  I am speaking under correction, I think it was also during the 1980's, but exactly when, I cannot say.
 I think that it was, it did take place at her house.

MR VALLY: Why was the Security Branch involved in investigating this matter?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I cannot say specifically why, but I think because it took place at the house of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and because the words ANC could have played a role.  I cannot recall specifically why that matter was brought to our attention.
 Possibly it was persons who could have been responsible for that, were subjects known to us.  It could have been agitators and people who we monitored.  I cannot say specifically why.
 Perhaps I am just speculating at this stage.

MR VALLY: And did you obtain a statement from Mrs Madikizela-Mandela in connection with this matter?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I cannot recall that.  I doubt it.

MR VALLY: Why not?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I don't know.  I would like to give you that answer, if I could just have some time to see that docket again.  To have a look and see what the whole result of that investigation was, I cannot remember.

MR VALLY: ... three people were charged and they were acquitted.  But the issue for me is this, that if a serious assault of this nature takes place, the Security Branch has an interest in the matter, you are the Investigating Officer, yet, you do not question or obtain a statement from the owner of the house in whose home this assault takes place.  Isn't that a reflection again of poor Police work?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: No, not at all.  I think that my question is mutatis mutandis applicable to what I said earlier that Mrs Mandela was a high profile person and whether the Commission or any other person wants to hear it or not, it is a fact that I and this is the way I interrogated people, or investigated, I did not approach her for a confrontation, I knew what was the result of that, and that I would have gone to her.
 All dockets are handed to the Attorney General, or one of the Senior State Prosecutors and if they requested such, made such a request to me that I had to obtain a statement, I would have done so.  I complied with the request, what was said by the Attorney General or the Senior State Prosecutors.

MR VALLY: On this point, and I will be very brief, the Attorney General can ask you for further investigation.  The basic investigations are done by you as the Senior Investigating Officer here  and I have now pointed out two incidents which had a link with Madikizela-Mandela and you chose not to question her.
 I am not talking about further investigations requested by the Attorney General, I am talking about your role as a Policeman.  As a Senior Superintendent if a junior Officer was to do that today, no matter how prominent the person was, and that person was not questioned or a statement was not obtained from them, would you as a Senior Policeman not reprimand your junior officer and say do your job properly, obtain a statement from a person who is linked by virtue of the fact it was here house in the incidents of the carvings, by virtue of the fact that her car was used in the incidents of the murders, wouldn't that be poor Police work if you were supervising a junior Officer?

ANDRE KRITZINGER: I am listening to exactly what you are saying to me and I agree with that, but let me sketch it to you in this way.  Experience has taught that and this is very clear, that if you have to go to Mrs Mandela's house to interrogate her or her daughter, to get a statement from either, I can guarantee you that she would have shown you the door.
 She would have said at no stage would she speak to you and expose her to any form of interrogation, or the making of a statement.  I think that at this stage the Commission should know that.