Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: That is correct.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS KHAMPEPE
WITNESS IS EXCUSED

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman the next of kin to the deceasedor the victims in all other applications will not testify Mr Chairman,but I may put it on record that they were contacted, they wereinformed and they have been with us during the proceedings.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mpshe would you like to supply theirnames so that they could be forwarded to the Avend(?) A Committee?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman that can be done today.   Mr Chairmanthe next step are submissions or arguments by both of us here.  Mr Chairman we have agreed, due to time constraints, that wedo not argue viva voce today, but we make written submissionsat a later stage if the Committee agrees Mr Chairman.   My learnedfriend can confirm that arrangement.

UNKNOWN: : I confirm Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: : By when will the submissions be made?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman my colleague says that two weekswill be sufficient to submit the document.

CHAIRPERSON: : Mr Matsepe is that correct?

UNKNOWN: : That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: : Not after two weeks but within two weeks?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Within two weeks.

CHAIRPERSON: : You will send your heads to the office in CapeTown Mr Matsepe?

UNKNOWN: : Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: : Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: : Mr Mpshe and Mr Matsepe, I thought I wouldask the previous witness but I missed by opportunity.   Can youtell us what Sayco is between the two of you?

UNKNOWN: : South African Youth Congress.

JUDGE MGOEPE: : Thank you.

UNKNOWN: : Mr Chairman may I just add this this SouthAfrican Youth Congress in my information this is the Congressthat subsequently transformed into what later, at least as faras the Free State is concerned and this area, the ANC Youth League.  Mr Chairman I am then going to ask for a short adjournment forus to resume and start with another application, as arranged.

CHAIRPERSON: : Very well we will take a short adjournment.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION
(NAME OF WITNESS UNKNOWN)
EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE

<UNKNOWN>: : At the time of your conviction what was youroccupation?

ANSWER: No 137 (indistinct) Location, Venter's (indistinct).

<UNKNOWN>: : At the time of your conviction what was youroccupation?

ANSWER: I was a teacher.

<UNKNOWN>: : Are you married?

ANSWER: Yes I am married.

<UNKNOWN>: : Do you have any children?

ANSWER: Yes I have children.

<UNKNOWN>: : Ages please.

ANSWER: The first born is 2 years three months old andthe second born is one year old, one year one month old.

<UNKNOWN>: : Will you just tell the Committee what standarddid you pass at school?

ANSWER: I finished matric and I had a teacher's certificate.

<UNKNOWN>: : Is it true that you also were enlisted in thepolice force on 18 August 1987?

ANSWER: May you please clarify the question?

<UNKNOWN>: : Is it true that you were enlisted into thepolice force, the South African Police Force on 18 August 1987?

ANSWER: Yes it's true.

<UNKNOWN>: : Could you just state the reasons why you decidedon a career in the police?

ANSWER: Do you mean during those years?   During thoseyears a black child's education was not up to a high standardand therefore one would find it difficult to obtain a job.   Theonly job that was available was to become a policeman so thatI can earn some money and proceed with my life.

<UNKNOWN>: : You in fact retired before this convictionin this matter from the police force, is that true?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you resign from the police force on 5 February1993?

ANSWER: Yes it's true.

<UNKNOWN>: : Can you tell the Committee why you resignedor what were the grounds for your resignation?

ANSWER: I resigned from the police when I realised thatthe job I had was about to put me in trouble and I also, onlygave reasons that I want to continue with my education but thatwas not the truth.

<UNKNOWN>: : For your resignation from the police force?

ANSWER: Because politically things were on a high standardhere in South Africa, I was in the ANC organisation and I wasa supporter at the (indistinct).   There are also other policemembers who came to know about that and I heard people talkingabout that and I thought this will put me in trouble.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were any remarks passed by any superior officersin this regard, to your membership or support of the ANC or anyother liberation movement or political organisation?

ANSWER: Two such people had such remarks regarding politics.

<UNKNOWN>: : Who were they?

ANSWER: The first one was W/O Engelbrecht who was stationedat Ventersberg and the second one was Col Botha who was stationedat Welkom.

<UNKNOWN>: : What were the remarks passed by these gentlemen?ANSWER:   It happened that while we were attending a lectureW/O Engelbrecht harassed one of the policemen and then I saidto him he must realise that times are changing and this thingof harassment won't be again accepted by the police, and he saidhe had been watching me I came to Ventersberg as a communist.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were you ever a member, a formal member ofany political organisation?

ANSWER: No I was only an ANC supporter, not a member.

<UNKNOWN>: : When did you become an ANC supporter?

ANSWER: It was in 1990.

<UNKNOWN>: : Just tell the Committee at that point in timewere policemen given permission or entitled to join any politicalmovement or party, what was the official policy of the PoliceServices then?

ANSWER: Police were under threats, I can talk about this,black policemen because while I was still working I was a criminalinvestigating officer and I realised that there are some whitepolicemen who were attending the white political organisations'meetings.   But if you were black and people came to know, thepolice came to know that you are a political organisation's memberyou would be sent to a trial department.

<UNKNOWN>: : If I am correct, then there was a policy principlefrom the Police Services that police members or police officersmay not have been members of inter alia the AWB, was thisalso the policy regarding the ANC and other movements?

ANSWER: I might say regarding the whites, this thingwas only said but in reality they took part in political organisationsbecause they were still in power at that time.  On the side ofthe black policemen this was emphasised that we were not supposedto enter into political organisations.

<UNKNOWN>: : Is it true that you only became a formal memberof the ANC during September 1993 and you still hold membershipwith the ANC?

ANSWER: Yes it's true.

<UNKNOWN>: : Can you state the reasons why you didn't openlyand actively become a member of the ANC or a prescribed memberof the ANC during that period 1990 to September 93?

ANSWER: We were preparing for the elections in 1993,that is the 1994 elections and therefore (indistinct) is a smalltownship who had to be strong there in the ANC organisation.

<UNKNOWN>: : You became a member of the ANC during September1993 being the date after your conviction and sentence in theRegional Court at Kroonstad.   Did you in any way actively supportany liberation movement or any political organisation?

ANSWER: I was also a member of SANCO, that is the (indistinct)branch of SANCO.

<UNKNOWN>: : For the record what does SANCO stand for?

ANSWER: SANCO stands for South African National CivicsOrganisation.

<UNKNOWN>: : What were the aims of this organisation?

ANSWER: SANCO's objective was, especially when it cameto the black authorities in the township, we must develop or continueour objectives, SANCO must carry forward the complaints or thedemands of the community so that the community could be proudof their lives.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was it only based in the township or was italso active in other parts of cities and towns?

ANSWER: It operated mostly in the black townships.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you bear office with this organisationat any point in time?

ANSWER: Yes.