Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-02

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: I'm not clear about that one.  Maybe there was, there were more or less than the first group.  I think there were more when they went to fetch Stephen.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.  Thank you chair.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  You said you took, in fact there were two weapons, an AK-47 and a palm gun.  Did I understand you correctly?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: Now, at the killing, which weapon was used?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: An AK-47 was used to kill Beki, and the second killing both weapons were used.

MR SIBANYONI: Now amongst the people who fetched Khanyile and Beki, are there any who are your co-applicants today?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: There is one of them that I was with during the killing.  There are some of them here in this hall but some of us, some of them, are dead now.

MR SIBANYONI: Who are here?  Who are still here, who are still alive?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Its' Mzwake, Telesi, Fana Makembeni, Fana Tshabango Makembeni, Jabi Macubu, Kenneth Masoga, Moses Ngcani, Sitingosi, Mandla Lukele.

MR SIBANYONI: Now how did it happen - We heard that they were taken to the house which was used as an office.  Were both of them taken to that house first, before they were taken to the veld?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: As I've already explained we first do, we fetched the first one and we dealt with him.  We went to fetch the second one.  They were not fetched at the same time, but that happened during the same night.

MR SIBANYONI: Yes what I want to know were they, each one of them, taken to the same house before taken to the veld?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Yes, that is true.  They were taken to the same house and the reason for that I can say where we were so clever, just before killing the person, just before taking any action we had to question the person.  We wouldn't just, we wouldn't kill randomly, we would use our brains and follow the right procedures.  That is why both of them were brought to 1037 Khosa Street.

MR SIBANYONI: Now after Khanyile was killed, and while Radebe was going to be fetched, where did you wait, you personally?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: In the office.  I was busy having my supper.  It was time for patrolling so I was having my supper in that house number 1037.

MR SIBANYONI: Lastly, I heard you saying, because everyone knew what Khanyile did, if you didn't issue an order people would be angry with you.  Were you the only person who should issue the order to kill?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: In the commanding structure of Tambo Slovo there's two of us.  I was a chief commander.  The person who is supposed to issue an order is myself.  As I said, if I did not issue that order perhaps today I would be killed, I will be dead today instead of him.  I was forced to issue an order because of his activities, things that he was involved in and my position also obliged me to issue an order.  And if there were no other leader, if there were no leaders maybe he wouldn't be questioned to, anything would just be done, that is why I was the commander.

MR SIBANYONI: You said you are two.  Who is the other one?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Moses Blangobesi.  He was not present on that particular day.

MR SIBANYONI: What is his rank compared to your position, being the highest one?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Tambo Slovo is composed of two sections, Tambo and Slovo were under Penduka section because they were in Penduka.  That other person was a leader of Tambo section, was a leader of Tambo but we were combined, we were one, and we would command because we were under the commanding structure.  If he issues a command during my absence he reports that, he would report that to me, and I would do the same.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You said Stephen was an informer.  That was one of the problems you had with him.

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Yes, he was an informer.  He was also an inyanga, that was protecting the Inkatha impis.

CHAIRPERSON: To whom would he report his information?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: David Mazibuko was one of them but he had a lot of people that he used to report to but the person that I knew that we used to play dice with was David Mazibuko who was later involved and he was the cause of the people's displacement at Penduka and he is the one that wrote the people letters to vacate Penduka within seven days so that they could take over and occupy the houses and take their furnitures.  Even David Mazibuko had his own leaders, but I don't know them.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe I don't understand, you say -  You see, as I understand your evidence, Stephen informed somebody, some group, or some party, or some institution, about other people.  I just want to find out what the nature of his information would be, and to whom he would make such reports about other people.

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: He used to report to David Mazibuko.  That's the one that I know who was Inkatha, who is Inkatha youth brigade now, and things that I know, I remember he used to confess about our meetings as youth from Tambo section, before displacement, as we wanted to form the SDU's and in order to get, or to purchase AK-47.  The information leaked and we had to held the meeting at different venues, and the intelligence of the SDU's, there three departments in the SDU's we had the department of intelligence and the logistics and other department.  Stephen used to forward such information and the comrades to be attacked.  One gentleman died through Stephen's information.  The gentlemen was from Selby Street but I cannot remember his name but I think the other comrades can remember his name.

CHAIRPERSON: You, from your evidence it seems to me that there is brought into sharp focus the issue of cultures, as followed by what is known as Zulu people and what is known as Xhosa people.  Do I understand you correctly?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: I do not understand you.

CHAIRPERSON: When you testified, it seems to me that you were talking about Zulu people from Natal and elsewhere, and those that I assume are not Zulu people, for example Xhosa, there are differences and during these fights that issue was brought into sharp focus.  Did I understand you correctly?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: I do not understand.  I understand about the Zulus coming from Natal, but I do not understand the other parts of your question.  Will you please explain further.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was it important that Zulu people, as it was put to you and I assume it was your instructions therefore, that Zulu people were attached to the IFP?  Or so it was perceived.

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: After Mandela's release from prison there was a fight in Tokoza, the Zulus were fighting the Xhosas.  They wouldn't kill anyone else, they would only kill the Xhosas.  And the people who was not a Zulu in the Xhosa community would be killed.  The fight started there between the Xhosas and Zulus up to a certain stage whereby the IFP and ANC then the Zulus were falling under the IFP because they were residing at the hostels and I believe that there were other Zulus who were against the IFP but for the fact that they were staying at the hostel and everyone in the hostel nationwide would be regarded as an IFP member.  So people would be forced to fall under IFP as long as they were staying in the hostels.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that's what I was referring to.  Now coupled with that, during the last section of your testimony, you also expressed the hope that we as black people should not repeat what has happened again, and fight with each other, kill each other.  Did I understand you correctly?