Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-01

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: The truth is the conditions in prison are not meant for one to be in his right senses, therefore if you do something you will find that there are mistakes here and there and this was a mistake and I accept that but at the time I didn't know it was a mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndlangamandla, I really want us to move further and not be stuck on this issue so I would appreciate if you could simply give an explanation, a very short explanation if you are able to provide us with anything why you are presenting this Committee with two completely different versions.  One you say is your grandfather was shot by a person, Mr Ben Nkosi who was two to three paces - three to four paces from where you were whilst both political organisations were fighting and the other version that says your grandfather was shot by people who were being led, not by - who were being led by Mr Ben Nkosi and further, the other version that you have given is that your grandfather was in fact shot whilst you were behind his house and not shot from the description that you gave us of the scene of the shooting.  You have given us three versions, three.  Now are you able to give us a reason why you are coming with three conflicting versions?  I don't think that explanation will solicit you having to explain to us the conditions that existed in wherever you were when you initially wrote and explained how the killing of your grandfather took place, it's got nothing to do with the conditions that existed in prison.  We are seeking to reconcile the inconsistent versions that we have put before this Committee.  Now are you able to explain that or not?  If you are please do so without having to refer to the conditions which existed in jail because those conditions cannot change the facts as you knew them to have happened then?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I have nothing to explain.

CHAIRPERSON: You are unable to explain the inconsistent versions you have presented this Committee with, that's your short answer, is that not so?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Thabete let's proceed.

MS THABETE: Thank you Madame Chair.  Is it not correct Mr Ndlangamandla that Mr Ben Nkosi was killed because you suspected him of having killed your grandfather by way of witchcraft?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: No that's not correct.

MS THABETE: I would like to put it to you that based on the affidavits that were handed over - you legal representative - to you by Mr Ndlangamandla and Mr Vilavazi.  Ben Nkosi was killed because of witchcraft.  What is your comment on that?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I don't know anything about that.

MS THABETE: Thank you Madam Chair, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete.  Mr Claassen, do you have any re-examination?

MR CLAASSEN: Madame Chair I have no re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Bosman, do you have any questions to put to Mr Ndlangamandla?

UNKNOWN: One question, thank you Madame Chair.
	Tell me what is your relationship with your immediate family at the moment?  Your immediate relatives, do you have brothers and sisters?  Mother and father?  How is your relationship with them?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: We have a good relationship.

UNKNOWN: But when do you hear from them?  When last did you hear from them?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: 1998 December last year.

UNKNOWN: But they are not here today.

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes they are not here because our telephones are not working in the prison therefore I couldn't contact them and when I arrived here I didn't have enough money to make calls but now I do have money to call them.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Bosman.  Mr Lax, do you have any questions to put to Mr Ndlangamandla?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Ndlangamandla, did your grandfather not die of an ordinary illness?  That's what's contained in the allegations in these affidavits.

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: No I don't know that.  He was never sick.

UNKNOWN: In your evidence you told us that there was shooting between ANC and the IFP.  The ANC was shooting at you, you were shooting back at them?  How was that possible if your people were armed with spears and axes and pangas.

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: No I didn't say that, I didn't say that there were shootings, I only said that we were armed with traditional weapons.  What I said as well was - I'm still explaining.

UNKNOWN: Please carry on?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: What I've said was there was a conflict that we were armed with a spear, a panga and an axe, I didn't say that we were shooting each other, what I said is that my grandfather was shot at there in that field that we were fighting.

UNKNOWN: You can trust me when I tell you that's what you said.  The record will show that that's what you said but I'm not here to mislead you about what you said.  But it's okay, you say that you didn't say that, that's fine.  Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndlangamandla, in your evidence in chief you gave an explanation of how you were related to Mr Ben Nkosi.  You then went on to say you knew that he was a leader of the ANC because he used to - you and him used to talk a lot.  You recall saying that?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: And that you talked to him about a number of issues including politics?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes I do remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: And you obviously knew where he stayed?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes I knew.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when did this bad blood between you and him begin?  You seem to have on your version been going along speaking and discussing even issues of politics, when did this conflict then begin?  I have not been able to contextualise your own evidence to what you are alleging to be a political conflict?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Ben Nkosi and my grandfather were not getting along but they never told me about this.  This led to the conflict and fighting because if there are two leaders in a place you seldom find peace because in that place we didn't need ANC even now there's still violence in that place.  This led to me getting involved in this and violence erupted in the place and that's why I ended up in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: No you haven't responded to my question.  I want to know when did any bad blood between you and Mr Nkosi develop because you seem to have had a good relationship.  On your version you discussed issues of politics and suddenly you are now saying there was violence in the area, that's your evidence, it was this violence that there was a boundary which divided ANC from the IFP?

CHAIRPERSON: You see the inconsistency on your own version?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you can't explain it can you because in fact this was your relative, you got along quite well with him.

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I can explain, I don't think I'm making myself clear but if one comes and attacks me then that person is my enemy.

CHAIRPERSON: Precisely.  The reason for your killing him was because as you have now just admitted he, Nkosi, did not get along with your grandfather, they didn't get along.  Nor did you get along with Nkosi.  You got along with Nkosi quite well but he did not get along with your grandfather?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: The way you've put it it looks like exactly that way.

CHAIRPERSON: And from comprehending your evidence, when you grandfather died, suspicion was cast on Mr Nkosi as being the person who was responsible for your grandfather's death, is that not so and that really cut closer to your bone and you felt you had to revenge whoever was suspected of having killed your grandfather?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: No, it's not like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see Mr Nkosi shooting your grandfather?