Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR BRITZ: Thank you Mr Chairman, may we be afforded the opportunity to call Captain Koja?

ADV DE JAGER: Are there any papers to hand up perhaps?

MR BRITZ: Yes, Mr Chairman, I was coming to that.  We have been able to locate certain relevant documents.  The first document is a set of three pocket books of Mr Ngo for the period 1987 to approximately August 1988.
	Then we have also located the occurrence book of the Mamelodi barracks.  I think that goes right to the end of 1989.  And then we have also located the if I can call it the record book or the, yes the record book of everybody who was resident at the barracks, indicating that Mr Ngo was resident at the Mamelodi barracks from 5 February 1987.  May I beg leave to hand up copies of simply extracts from these documents, which we've made for the Committee's purposes.
	The documents are voluminous and obviously we couldn't make copies of everything, we just made certain extracts.  Captain Koja has the original documents with him and I will elaborate a little bit more during the evidence in respect of certain of the documents.
	Mr Chairman, my Attorney has suggested that he be appointed to the Investigating Unit at the TRC.  Mr Chairman, the extracts do not really reflect the amount of times Mr Ngo has referred to in these documents, especially the occurrence book which you find copies of from page 20.
	If you inspect the occurrence book, the occurrence book which you find copies of from page 20, if you inspect the occurrence book, the original which we will hand up to you, you will see that Mr Ngo was referred there to probably about every day.
	You will see that the nature of the contents of the pocket books, relate usually to inspections of the barracks and it also relates to when he arrived for duty and when he went off duty, and the same goes for the occurrence book.  Here and there you will note that there are inscriptions referring to specific visits to other places, and reports of other happenings which I will try to deal with.
	Mr Chairman, I don't intend to go through everything in detail and I simply want to introduce in evidence by Captain Koja, just certain inscriptions, just to make it clear for the Committee.
	Thank you Mr Chairman, I think the witness' language is Sotho.  Captain, can you just look at Judge Ngoepe, please.

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

MR BRITZ: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, before I go on, I just want to place something else on record.  The documents are quite voluminous.  We went through the documents quickly, this morning when I had time, I went through the occurrence book and there will be one or two pages which I want to refer to in the evidence, which are not contained in the bundle and I apologise for that.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it arrangements can be made if necessary to have them duplicated afterwards.

MR BRITZ: We will do so  Mr Chairman.
	Captain Koja, where are you stationed at this point?

UNKNOWN: I am stationed at Mamelodi police station.

MR BRITZ: And to what Unit do you belong?

UNKNOWN: I am at Supportive Unit.

MR BRITZ: Right, Captain and for the period 1983 to 1993, where were you stationed?

UNKNOWN: I was stationed at South African police station at Barracks in Mamelodi.

MR BRITZ: And what was your position there?

UNKNOWN: I was the Commander of the barracks in Mamelodi.

MR BRITZ: And who stayed at the barracks, was it just for policemen or what was the purpose of the barracks?

UNKNOWN: The barracks which I was working at, were only - South African Police blacks were resident at that place.

MR BRITZ: Can you remember if Captain Bokaba was a resident there?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I remember that he was staying there.

MR BRITZ: All right, and Captain Koja, what were your duties at the barracks?

UNKNOWN: My work was to make it a point that they reach inspections and that police members are given proper accommodation and when they arrive, I should report them to the Area Commissioner and when they leave the barracks, I was the one who was reporting to the Area Commissioner.

MR BRITZ: Now, Captain do you know one of the applicants in these applications, but the application we are dealing with specifically, the applicant is Mr Nelson Ngo.  Do you know him?

UNKNOWN: I know him very well.

MR BRITZ: And can you explain to us, during the period when you were in charge of the barracks, did you know Mr Ngo then?

UNKNOWN: I knew him because he was under my supervision at that time.  He worked under my supervision from 1987 when he arrived at the barracks, up to the time when he was arrested.

MR BRITZ: Now, Captain, in what Unit was Mr Ngo at that time?

UNKNOWN: He was at Unit 19, Rosslyn in Pretoria.

MR BRITZ: And on what basis was he working for you at the barracks in Mamelodi?  How did that happen?

UNKNOWN: There was what you call a service arrangement, "diensreeling" in Afrikaans.  I was called at Unit 19 offices at Rosslyn where there was a problem that members of the Unit 19 were many at Mamelodi barracks.  Then I sat down with the Commander and discussed the problem.
	Then they handed over Constable Ngo and Constable Ramala,  that they should help me at the barracks.  They arranged that with me together with the Unit 19 Commander.  I went with him from there and then we went to the barracks and worked under my supervision until he was arrested.

MR BRITZ: Now, Captain, did you see Mr Ngo every day?

UNKNOWN: That is true.

MR BRITZ: And where did he have to report every day?

UNKNOWN: He was reporting to me on a daily basis, in the morning and when he knocked off, he reported to me.

MR BRITZ: And what were his responsibilities, what was he supposed to do?

UNKNOWN: His duty was to see to it that the police of the Unit 19 should have clean sheets and the blankets should be changed on a weekly basis.  During the week he would go and inspect the rooms as whether they are still in order and during the day he would go there and saw that the showers are clean.
	And then on that day again he would go and collect the post and take it to the police station.  Those are the post we used to receive or take, those who were at the barracks.  That is the work I gave him.

MR BRITZ: Are you referring to the Mamelodi police station where he had to take the post?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MR BRITZ: And Captain, was Mr Ngo ever sent to the Kompol building, to Security Headquarters?

UNKNOWN: In regard to the Kompol building, because we worked with different Units, there were different policemen who stayed at the barracks, it was possible that he would go there to those Units and deliver the post.

MR BRITZ: Now, Captain, there was evidence before this Committee and in a criminal trial of Mr Ngo as well, that he was responsible for the murder of a Mr Venter.  Did you know Mr Venter?

UNKNOWN: I knew the deceased very well.  I was with him whilst he was still alive.

MR BRITZ: Can you explain to us exactly how did you come to know Mr Venter and what did you know of Mr Venter and Mr Ngo?  Tell us everything you can remember.

UNKNOWN: Mr Venter arrived in Mamelodi.  What happened is that Mr Ngo came with a Cressida car in Mamelodi and Mr Venter, when he arrived at Mamelodi, he requested (indistinct) Commander, then he was able to trace me, then he found me at the barracks.
	He explained to me that he has a problem that he lent, he borrowed Ngo his car, that is coming to Pretoria, then he was supposed to return the car on a particular day and the car was returned.
	He requested me that I should talk to Ngo, so that Ngo should return his car.  On that day Ngo was not present with Venter's car.  Then I said to him that when he returned with Venter's car, I would return the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, did you say he returned the car or he did not return the car he had borrowed?

UNKNOWN: I don't know as whether he returned the car, but when he returned ... (intervention)