Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1997-08-04

MR DIAZ: And of course following upon this discussion, you and Mrs Mkhize made statements to Advocate Mike Himber about this incident, correct?

MRS KUZWAYO: Yes, that's correct.

MR DIAZ: And you testified at that trial in this regard?

MRS KUZWAYO: Yes, that's correct.

MR DIAZ: Mrs Kuzwayo, that is all I wanted to ask you about this matter but insofar as your late husband is concerned, is it not correct that you do not oppose the applicant's application, nor do you support it, you will simply abide by this Committee's decision?

MRS KUZWAYO: I would like to put before the Commission that I was hurt terrible, I lost a lot.  Now that Msizi is requesting amnesty and if he's telling the truth, I think the community and the society and the TRC as well will decide as to whether he's telling the truth and whether he deserves amnesty or not.  As long as he's telling the truth, the people will decide on that.

MR DIAZ: Thank you Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, that is the testimony of this witness, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHANGWENI: No questions your Lordship.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: No thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Kuzwayo, thank you very much.

MRS KUZWAYO: Thanks.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DIAZ: Mr Chairman, I do have a further witness, he's present here but I must say I don't think he'd be as short as the last witness and I'm not too sure whether he's going to be available to-morrow, I haven't taken instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DIAZ: Certainly, thank you.

MR DIAZ: The person being called is Mr Sebusiso Kuzwayo, the son of the late Mr Kushana Kuzwayo.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kuzwayo, will you please stand.

SEBUSISO KUZWAYO: (sworn states)

MR DIAZ: Thank you Mr Chairman.
Mr Kuzwayo, you are the son of the late Mr Kushana Kuzwayo, is that true?

MR KUZWAYO: That's correct.

MR DIAZ: You do know the applicant don't you?

MR KUZWAYO: Yes, I heard of him.

MR DIAZ: Are you aware that the applicant has been acquitted on the charge of the death of your late father?

MR KUZWAYO: Yes, I heard.

MR DIAZ: You do recall that the applicant's stance at the trial relating to the death of your late father in regard to which he was charged, was that he knew nothing about your late father, are those your instructions?

MR KUZWAYO: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he at the trial, was your client at the trial?

MR DIAZ: Mr Chairman, I haven't canvassed that but earlier he instructed me that at the trial this was the stance of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MR DIAZ: Thank you Mr Chairman
Mr Kuzwayo, as regard to your knowledge of what happened at the trial, is this what you were told, about the applicant's stance or is this something that you observed when you were at the trial?

MR KUZWAYO: My brother who was there when this thing happened and he was also present in court.

MR DIAZ: And you intend to have your brother testify here as well, do you not?

MR KUZWAYO: Yes, that's correct.

MR DIAZ: He is the brother who has made these statements which is contained in the record which we earlier dealt with, correct?

MR KUZWAYO: That's correct.

MR DIAZ: Mr Kuzwayo, you do recall that the applicant mentioned in this application that he did have some role to play as regards the death of your late father?

MR KUZWAYO: Yes, I read about that on his affidavit.

MR DIAZ: Do you recall him having said that he pointed out your late father for the purposes of your late father being executed but that he did not accompany the killers to your late father's house, nor did he participate in the actual killing as contained in paragraph 32 of his affidavit?

MR KUZWAYO: You referring here or in court?

MR DIAZ: No sorry, I'm referring to the affidavit which drew to my attention and particularly paragraph 32 thereof in which the applicant mentions that contrary to what he had mentioned - sorry, he didn't mention this in the affidavit but from your knowledge, contrary to what he said at the trial, he now says that he did participate in the killing of your father but only to the extent of pointing your late father out, correct?

MR KUZWAYO: Yes, in court he denied having participated but in his affidavit he does agree that he was there.

MR DIAZ: Mr Kuzwayo, you do recall that when I cross-examined the applicant about the level of his involvement insofar as your father's death is concerned, he mentioned that a group of persons had gone in a car to your late father's house to execute your late father but that the applicant was not in that car, nor did the applicant - nor was the applicant at your late father's house at the time of the killing, do you remember that?

MR KUZWAYO: Yes, I remember that but I don't think that's the truth.

MR DIAZ: According to your knowledge, more particularly from what your brother has told you, the applicant was present at the house when your father was actually gunned to death?

CHAIRPERSON: Why can't he tell us what he knows instead of what his brother's told him?

MR KUZWAYO: Yes, he was there, he pointed out and he was also present.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just get this clear man, you have a witness who is going to say that he was in fact there, this witness says he was told by that witness, so what relevance is his evidence?

MR DIAZ: Mr Chairman, unfortunately I'm constrained by the lack of the other witness and to the extent that I wanted to complete this witness for the convenience of this Committee ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DIAZ: As presently advised, I can't unfortunately.

CHAIRPERSON: Lets be absolutely clear.  You were not there when these people came to your house on the occasion when your father was killed?

MR KUZWAYO: No, I wasn't there.

CHAIRPERSON: And what you know about it is what you've been told by members of your family?

MR KUZWAYO: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any questions to put to this one?

MR SHANGWENI: No questions Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR SHANGWENI

MR BRINK: No, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

MR DIAZ: Mr Chairman, as mentioned earlier, unfortunately I have no further witnesses for today except for his brother who unfortunately is not available today.  I do not know when he would be made available.  Perhaps if this Committee can tell me when next we are sitting I could then ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We are sitting tomorrow morning at half past nine.

MR DIAZ: Could I then take instructions, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DIAZ: Thank you.
	Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, my client indicates that his brother would be able to make himself available first thing tomorrow morning and would be able to testify but I understand from my learned colleague now who tells me aside that he has problems about tomorrow.  Perhaps he can address the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Why is that so?

MR SHANGWENI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I was informed that the matter will disposed of today.

CHAIRPERSON: Informed by whom?

MR SHANGWENI: By my learned colleague, Mr Robin Brink.  And I made arrangements to the effect that ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: So when did you ...(intervention)

MR SHANGWENI: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, I don't think I said the matter would be finished because one cannot possibly prognosticate, I did indicate that I thought it might be and I hoped it would be.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) all kinds of delays that are unexpected that occur in the course of a matter, you know that as well as I do.  It does seem that if there has been any delay, that wasn't any intention of delay on anybody's part.  If this is a matter of some importance to your client then I think you'd better make yourself available tomorrow morning.  I would like to hear your argument as well and I don't know whether that can be done until after you've heard his evidence.