Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-01

MR WILLS: And you in fact received a prison sentence of 10 years, which was later reduced on appeal, to six years?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And you served that six year?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: On Robben Island.

MR WILLS: On Robben Island, yes.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Wills, your question to the witness was what was the purpose of his coming back to South Africa.  I am afraid, he didn't quite answer that, maybe he just didn't hear the question properly.

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, at that time, as I have indicated in my earlier input, when I was based in Lesotho, I was heading the ANC underground and SACP, so it was one of my functions to link up with underground structures of the SACP in particular.

MR WILLS: Now, in your amnesty application, the actual printed form, which I believe you have a copy of, in front of you - under Section 9(a)(i) when it indicates, you indicate that you are applying for amnesty firstly in respect of all actions I undertook as a member of MK and the ANC and that is under the section where you say 1976 - 1990.

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes.

MR WILLS: My understanding is that the only thing that you are applying for amnesty for in regard to this period, is the conviction under the Internal Security Act for being a member of a banned organisation and for military training, is that correct?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Precisely.

MR WILLS: So prior to 1990, there are no other events that you are making application for amnesty for?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: None at all.

MR WILLS: Can you, you went into prison in 1986 and served the time in Robben Island, when were you released?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I was released in June 1990 after President Mandela was released in February of 1990 as a process of the release of many political prisoners who were till languishing in South African jails.

MR WILLS: And then, what did you do immediately after your release?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: After my release I worked as a Projects' Coordinator for the National Association of Democratic Lawyers.  In that capacity I was monitoring violence in kwaZulu Natal and also acting to promote peace in all those areas that were ravaged by violence in kwaZulu Natal.
	At the same time, I was elected as the Deputy Chairperson of the ANC in Southern Natal.  Those were the things that I was doing immediately after me release in 1990.

MR WILLS: It is through your capacity as the Deputy Chairperson of the Southern Natal region of the ANC that you eventually became involved in the establishment of the Self Defence Units, is that correct?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: That is correct.  At the time, as the Deputy Chairperson of the ANC, I was responsible for security matters in Southern Natal.  Because particularly of my involvement as Projects' Coordinator for the National Association of Democratic Lawyers and witnessing first hand the violence that was (indistinct) here in Southern Natal, that is why I was made responsible for this task of seeing the political establishment of Self Defence Units in Southern Natal.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, could you just briefly describe the area of Southern Natal in which you were involved, what was your jurisdiction there?  Was it down at Port Shepstone, where did it start and where did it go to?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: The Southern Natal region, in fact if I can describe as it was then called Natal, in terms of the ANC demarcations, we had three regions, Southern Natal, Natal Midlands and Northern Natal.
	Southern Natal under whose jurisdiction I was in, stretches from the Tugela down into Port Shepstone and until around Hammarsdale, Inchanga area.  That is the area of Southern Natal.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the Committee, Mr Radebe, why it was necessary that SDU's be established?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: The main reason why Self Defence Units were established, was to counter the violence that was being perpetrated by the Security organs of the State at that time, more particularly the South African Police, the South African Defence Force and all its surrogates who were operating in Southern Natal.
	The authority to establish these Self Defence Units, emanated from the policy positions of the ANC and its allies, and if one can just mention a few, that even before 1990, the unbanning of the ANC, there was violence in many parts of Natal as it was then called.  So the ANC Headquarters in Lusaka had always took resolutions for the defence of our people, but during this period, we had a National Consultative Conference that took place in 1990 in Johannesburg and a National Conference that took place in Durban.
	All these resolutions, empowered the structures of the ANC to establish the people's Self Defence Units.

MR WILLS: And it is your contention that your role was strictly in accordance with these structures and organisational prerogatives?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes, at all material times, I was acting under the specific instructions and directives of the policy decisions of the ANC as a whole.

MR WILLS: We will get onto the specifics of those at a later stage, but very briefly, what - can you explain to the Committee the role of the communities in the establishment of the SDU's?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: In fact the communities played a central role in the Self Defence Units, in fact the Self Defence Units were a creation of all those communities who were undergoing severe attacks from the forces and powers that be.  So in essence the Self Defence Units were as a result of the communities themselves, deciding that they needed the Self Defence Units.
	As an ANC, we were playing a supportive, secondary role in ensuring that those community structures of Self Defence Units are indeed properly empowered, to pursue these defensive capacity.

MR WILLS: Can you explain to the Committee what was the role of Umkhonto weSizwe  in regard to the SDU's?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: In terms of the ANC policy resolutions, the role of Umkhonto weSizwe  cadres was to ensure that they support these community structures.  In more particularly, in training them and also in providing weapons that were going to be used in defence of communities who were under attack.

MR WILLS: Just to get clarity on the point, from the evidence you have given, it seems clear that the SDU's were not established by Umkhonto weSizwe , is that correct?
	They were not creations of Umkhonto weSizwe ?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: That is correct yes.  The role that Umkhonto weSizwe played was a supportive role in those areas where communities felt that they needed to defend themselves, in view of the fact that the police and the Defence Force were turning a blind eye whenever communities were attacked and in fact, in many instances it was the Security Forces themselves that were guilty of these attacks against communities.

MR WILLS: Now, I know Mr Sithole is going to give further evidence on this point, but how - can you, are you aware of how in practical terms, an MK cadre on the ground, would get involved with a particular SDU?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Precisely, because as I have indicated, even though the Self Defence Units were not the creation of Umkhonto weSizwe  per se, but Umkhonto weSizwe  played a vital role in supporting these community structures.
	As I have indicated here, even from the top leadership of Umkhonto weSizwe , this support was evident.

MR WILLS: You wore a number of caps in the anti-apartheid organisations.  You also were directly connected to Umkhonto weSizwe , is that correct?
	What was your role in Umkhonto weSizwe  in the post-1990 period?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: My role was that of being a Chairman of the ANC in Southern Natal, and working directly with military headquarters in furtherance of ANC policy positions, particularly in the implementation of supporting capacity to the Self Defence Unit.