Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-20

MR J DE CASTRO: Well I would say they were instructed to come and shoot, if they were instructed to come and shoot white people like they mentioned it then they would come in straightaway and start shooting on the people straight away.  Why did they first shot the till, why did they first take the money out of the one till before they started shooting us?  It's clearly that this was no political organisation, this was a crime and I believe and I feel strongly that if you do crime you must pay for it.

MR MALAN: When your wife went to lie down was she close to you?

MR J DE CASTRO: Well she was close to my sister-in-law, the deceased sister-in-law, Fatima De Castro.

MR MALAN: And Giovani where was he?

MR J DE CASTRO: Giovani went to the other side where the fruit and veg table was.

MR MALAN: So was Frikkie was also there?

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes.

MR MALAN: Were they in full view of everybody or would they have been hidden from the view of the attackers?

MR J DE CASTRO: No they were hidden.

MR MALAN: They were hidden, so that explains why they weren't shot?

MR J DE CASTRO: I would say everything happened so quickly you know and ... (intervention)

MR MALAN: But your wife was not out of sight of the applicants at the time or those in the shop?

MR J DE CASTRO: Well she was right next door, they probably thought she was dead.

CHAIRPERSON: You told us she was, as I understood earlier, she was right up against the bottom of the till?

MR J DE CASTRO: That's right.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman I was going to ask if the Committee can allow me, there's a point I wanted to raise with Mr De Castro?

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr De Castro who else do you recognise on the day with the exception of Bhani?

MR J DE CASTRO: I recognise another one that we also went to a, like they call it in Afrikaans "uitken parade", it's a - I recognise another guy, I pointed them out to the police, he's also one of your applicants.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you still remember him if you see him now?

MR J DE CASTRO: If I see him I will yes.  This guy standing here with the brown.  I recognise him very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the person who's just stood up?

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And his name?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Silimela Ngesi Mr Chairman.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you know what role did he play?

MR J DE CASTRO: Well he was shooting.  He said "money, money", he wanted money and then when they shot the one till then everybody started firing.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So is there any other thing which you still remember he did or you have forgotten some of it?

MR J DE CASTRO: Well there were four people that was standing there in front of the door and all four of them used their weapons.  It's difficult for me to say if that guy shot a tin of coffee or that guy shot a person, it's difficult to say.

MR MBANDAZAYO: No I agree with you Mr De Castro, it's a long time that's why I'm saying do you still remember, maybe you have forgotten what he said?

MR J DE CASTRO: No I won't forget.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Won't forget?

MR J DE CASTRO: No.

MR MBANDAZAYO: There's no other thing except to say "money" and then they shot, they started shooting?

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Nothing else?

MR J DE CASTRO: They said "money, lie down".

MR MBANDAZAYO: Hm.

MR J DE CASTRO: And I remember Ngesi saying, he was right in front of me that's why I remember him, I can recall his words.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Hm.

MR J DE CASTRO: He shot at me as well, he thought I was dead.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I was asking you just because I was just reading the record that it seems as if he's the, according to the record, he's the one person you were able to identify and that you, if I may use that word, you was a very nasty one, that's why I'm asking what else did he do?

MR J DE CASTRO: Nasty word, which nasty word?

MR MBANDAZAYO: That ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That he was the one I think counsel said, not nasty word he said, apparently he's saying you said he was the nasty one.

MR J DE CASTRO: Well he said "money, money".

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman there's no more.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible).

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman that will be the case for the victims.
WITNESS EXCUSED
RECALL OF MR GEORGE THABANG MAZETE

CHAIRPERSON: We now have the position that we have, after the applicants gave evidence, being supplied with further statements made by two of them and I think everybody has been supplied with those statements.  When I say everybody, all interested parties, that's Exhibits F and G.  They were mentioned yesterday and another statement, Exhibit E was also made available then.  Do you wish to recall your clients and lead them in respect of these statements?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman I would like to recall George Thabang Mazete.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you been given a copy of Exhibit E?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes I think I have a copy of it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mazete you're reminded that you are still under your former oath.

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: (s.u.o.)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mazete you told the Committee yesterday that you made a statement in front of the Magistrate.  If I'm correct you said ...(indistinct) Magistrate ...(indistinct).  Do you recall that?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now in your statement before the Magistrate you mentioned certain people.  If I may read Mr Chairman just the first?  "On 11/6/93 the person who first arrived was Thabo.  He arrived there at the corrugated iron shack and the Monday morning he left.  On the 25/6 Sipho (?) arrived at Thipe's house, thereafter he went to Andrew's place".  Now just before I carry on, can you for the benefit of the Committee tell the Committee what was Thebo?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is Oupa Khotle.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he one of the ...(indistinct)?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct Mr Chairman, he was number three.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he the applicant before us today, the third applicant?  Will you answer the question?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That's is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee who was Andrew?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is the Chairperson of the PAC in ...(indistinct) Township.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And who was Sipho?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is Mangalisekile Bhani.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he the first applicant?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I'll read Mr Chairman.
"He had a firearm when he got there.  We took the gun and put it under the mattress in my shack.  Both of us slept together in this shack but he washed himself at Andrew's shack".
You have heard what I've read to you.  Can you elaborate more what was actually taking place when this thing did happen, what you are saying in this statement?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: In 1993 ...(indistinct) and as he was a person who was giving us the training in the task force group.  At times he would go with me to sleep with me in my shack.  As I was a student at that time where I was sleeping we did not have toiletry, he would go to the Andrew's shack house to go and wash.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. I'll proceed Mr Chairman.
"The Tuesday of the following week he sent me to go and draw up a plan of the supermarket that they attacked.  On 3/7/93 approximately nine o'clock I met Sipho and Roger.  They asked me to get a spade or to go and look for a spade.  That was when we had to bury the firearms at my shack.  When I went home I saw a white Datsun bakkie, it stood in the street where I lived.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mazete can you explain to the Committee what happened, how, why did they wanted a spade to bury the, to hide the weapons, what was actually happening at the time you met them?