Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-18

MOSES VELI LLALE: I am still working with Joe Nhlanhla he is now a deputy minister of intelligence and I am still doing the same work I was doing at Shell House.

MR TIPP: But you are now employed by the National Intelligence Agency?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes it's correct.

MR TIPP: Mr Llale could you briefly tell the committee about the training which you received in the United States of America?

MOSES VELI LLALE: The training basically was of people who were doing VIP protection work. It was after the assassination of Chris Hani then we were sent to the United States for further training. It dealt with how to protect the dignitaries, how to protect the installation, how to react in a situation whereby your principal is being kidnapped, how do you react to a situation like that.

MR TIPP: When you are referring to installations are you referring to buildings?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes.

MR TIPP: What time did you arrive at Shell House on the Monday the 28th of March 1994. Can you recall?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I think at seven o' clock.

MR TIPP: Briefly could you tell the committee what you saw on your way from Soweto through to Shell House that morning?

MOSES VELI LLALE: One passes hostels when he comes to work. One would be Jabulani Hostel which was on my route. There was acts of violence, roads were closed and I had to take other roads to work and I had to pass through the hostel which was also on my route and also saw similar acts which I saw in Jabulani, of people which were stranded. They didn't have taxis and roads were closed so also I had take other routes to connect to town.

MR TIPP: What acts did you witness on your way to work?

MOSES VELI LLALE: There was shooting, people were running around and you could see when you were passing that in the hostel itself there were buses and there were lot of violence, meaning shooting. What I mean they were shooting up in the air or to the people I don't know, but there was lot of shooting which was happening near the hostels.

MR TIPP: When you say "they" who are you referring to?

MOSES VELI LLALE: The people who occupied hostels which were IFP people then.

MR TIPP: Did you have an idea of what was going on, what was your impression as to what was happening that day?

MOSES VELI LLALE: As a person who grew in Soweto every time when there is an IFP march we knew that there was going to be violence so before this day on the news it was reported that the IFP march - there was going to be a gathering in town so I knew that maybe they were preparing to go to this gathering.

MR TIPP: When you arrived at Shell House were you briefed at all as to what to expect on the day?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Usually at Shell House every morning there's a briefing for security guards, but on that day what made me suspicious was the people who were working night shift were also attending this meeting and I could see that the people who came in and the people who were working at night shift were in the same room and they were briefed by Joe Mababe. As a person who worked with Mr Joe Nhlanhla who all the time was at Shell House I attended this meeting also.

MR TIPP: Can you recall what Joe Mababe said?

MOSES VELI LLALE: When I went in the meeting was already in progress but what I remember very well was that the guards were told, including myself, because I was already in that meeting that today the guards shall be in alert because there's going to be a gathering of IFP people in town and there is a possibility that there might be an attack on Shell House. This is the information they had by then.

MR TIPP: Now at that time you were attached to Mr Nhlanhla what - how did you become involved in the activities around Shell House? Was it after that meeting or what happened?

MOSES VELI LLALE: After I have attended that meeting I decided that I shall also deploy with security people because I knew that Mr Joe Nhlanhla was head of security. If it is true that there is going to be such a thing he won't actually - he will be in the building to see to it that every thing was done in order.

MR TIPP: Where were you deployed?

MOSES VELI LLALE: After the meeting I went back to Joe Mababe I requested him that he must include me in the number of people he was deploying and then later on I think it was ten minutes later on Chris Lushabe came to me and said to me I shall go up to the parapet.

MR TIPP: It's common course that you were armed on the parapet that day with a shotgun. How did you get that shotgun?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I don't know whether I'll remember well but as I recollect a deputy commander of Shell House who was by then it was, Maswe is late now, gave me a shotgun and a bullet proof vest before I went up to the parapet.

MR LAX: Sorry I didn't here that name correctly. What was the name?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Maswe.

MR TIPP: Who did you find on the parapet, who was with you?

MOSES VELI LLALE: When I arrived at the parapet the only person who was there was Jakwe Molefe, Jacob Molefe.

MR TIPP: Thereafter were you joined by any people on the parapet?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Chris Lushabe as a commander on that day and he came up and I remember Steve Moolman also came up later.

MR TIPP: What did you do on the parapet that morning?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I was patrolling the parapet with Jagwa Molefe.

MR TIPP: And what was the purpose of your patrol?

MOSES VELI LLALE: The purpose of the patrol was that when you are on the parapet your view is different from a person who works downstairs because you can see far and then the reason why I was there because of the visibility was much better than a person who was deployed elsewhere.

MR TIPP: So as I understand it you were walking around the parapet looking out at various positions. Is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes correct.

MR TIPP: Can you tell the court briefly again, the committee I beg your pardon, briefly again what you observed from the parapet that morning before the main incident?

MOSES VELI LLALE: There were various marchers that passed Shell House. I don't know if I am correct but if I remember well the first group that I noticed on that day they were using Plein Street going up to Bree Street. That group particularly was escorted by police and there were a lot of journalists and women so I and Jagwa we went to the side there and we stood there watching this group as it was passing on singing and doing this Zulu dances and - as others have said there were posters there because it was, the ANC had already started its electioning process and then there were posters all over town of ANC and a poster of the President of the country which is Nelson Mandela. Some of the marchers will go to this posters with spears and knobkierries knock these posters down. Some of them will pass a poster of the President which is - I am referring to President Mandela, tore it, throw it in the air but we didn't do nothing, we just looked at them as they were passing through.

MR TIPP: Were there other groups as well besides the group that went down passed Klein Street?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I think two groups later followed which the other one if I remember well passed just in front of the door and there were lot of women which were doing a lot of things that I cannot say but which were very funny to us, but we just stood there with Jagwa and others - observe as they were passing through.

MR TIPP: When you say in front of the door you're referring to in Plein Street. Is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes that's correct.

MR TIPP: In any of the groups that went past that morning before the main incident, did you notice any firearms amongst the group?