Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MR RAMAWELE: Now, is it so that the only other black police officers who were not in Chesterville, who did not go to Chesterville according to the information which is now available, was Nofomela and Bosigo?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Mr Chairman, they could have been part of other groups, working in other areas.

MR RAMAWELE: Yes, I am referring to the fact that these two black police officers were not the ones who, they were not involved in this, according to the information that you now have, they were not involved in the Chesterville incident according to you?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: According to the information I obtained at that stage from Nortje, they were not involved.

MR RAMAWELE: Do you know what Bosigo and Nofomela were doing at the time of this incident?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I think they were part of other groups at that stage.

MR RAMAWELE: You are not sure?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Mr Chairman, I can't remember that exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible that they could have been on the scene, but not part of the infiltration group which moved into the area?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Mr Chairman, then their names would have been on the list as part of this incident, and they had to make statements.

CHAIRPERSON: Even if Nofomela was only the driver of the vehicle or was on the periphery of Chesterville waiting for the people who had to do the actual job?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Nothing was covered up here, nothing was changed, no cartridges were changed, we did not know the Detectives, there was nothing to cover up here or to hide.  If Nofomela's name did not appear on the list, he was not there.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, sorry Mr Ramawele.

MR RAMAWELE: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Among the black police officers at Vlakplaas, who was the most senior in experience and rank at that time?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Mr Chairman, there was Lt Mose and Lt Lesatse.

MR RAMAWELE: Were they also in Durban?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR RAMAWELE: And at the time of this incident, where were they?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: They would have been deployed.

MR RAMAWELE: But you are just speculating?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Mr Chairman, I cannot remember, they definitely wouldn't have been sitting around at the police station, they would have been deployed, working.

MR RAMAWELE: The reason why I am asking this is because Mr Nofomela says to me that you actually told him that he shouldn't get involved in the, he shouldn't have got involved in this incident because you had another mission for him?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Mr Chairman, we had no other tasks except to find these ANC members, there were no other covert tasks or clandestine tasks that we had to execute.

MR RAMAWELE: And you then also told him that those people were going to be shot at in Chesterville, that is what he says?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Mr Chairman.

MR RAMAWELE: Mr de Kock, is it true that if Mr Nofomela had another task to undertake in Chesterville or Lamontville or whatever place, it would have been dangerous, it would have been foolhardy for him to get involved in another incident because he could be identified?  His cover could be blown?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Mr Chairman, I don't know, I cannot answer that.  There was no other task.  As far as I know he was not involved in this shooting, if his name does not appear on the list, then he was not there ... (no interpretation)

MR RAMAWELE: Which list are you talking about?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: This is the list that the people's names appear that were at the shooting Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: I see, you say this was not a clandestine operation?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Mr Chairman, it was not clandestine.

MR RAMAWELE: The people, I presume that you must have been worried that some people in Chesterville shot or attempted to shoot at your members?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, this is the reports that had been made to me and that they then reacted, on the fire.

MR RAMAWELE: Now did, because they were acting in self-defence, did they make a statement to the police to say that they were attacked by other people so that those people should be arrested, who attacked, who wanted to attack the police officers?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, they did make statements, naturally I cannot give evidence to this regard and I cannot remember what they said.

MR RAMAWELE: Were the people actually arrested, the people who attempted to shoot them, some of the survivors, were they actually arrested?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I do not know, I do not remember.

MR RAMAWELE: So this matter was never given, you were never serious about apprehending these people who attacked the Vlakplaas members, those who survived?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, that would have depended on the Investigating Officers and what their evidence would have been.

MR RAMAWELE: But Mr de Kock you were based in Vlakplaas, you were the Commander there and you had the power, you had the power to see to it that your members had to be protected, they had to be protected, they were doing a very good job?  Why just leave it to an Investigating Officer whom you did not even know?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, counter-insurgency is a high risk job and to be shot at, was nothing strange to us.  It is very unpleasant, it is unpleasant every time, but it is nothing strange.

MR RAMAWELE: Do you agree that the people who, if they attempted to attack your members, they could have been linked to the UDF, ANC local activists?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, possibly, the Security Branch would have investigated this part.  We were a Counter-Insurgency Unit and we would have not kept ourselves busy with the investigation.

MR RAMAWELE: But you came to Durban to look for, do you agree that you came to Durban to look for the, to actually do a job which could have been done by local Detectives, just to look for the killers, just to look for three killers, the local CIDs could have done that, not so?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: The local Detective Branch did not have the capability to identify trained MK members Chairperson, Vlakplaas did have this capability.

MR RAMAWELE: But Mr de Kock, if there is a lead as to the name or the whereabouts of a killer of a police officer, you don't need to be attached to Koevoet or Vlakplaas to be able to trace that person, a CID member can do that, it is just a simple investigative work?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, yes, but murders of Security Policemen as far as I know, were seen as deeds of terrorists and they were investigated by the Security Branches.

MR RAMAWELE: You see the point I am trying to make is three police officers were killed and if they were killed, what you were looking for, you were looking for those killers only, that is what you were looking for.  If you were just looking for the killers, you were not looking for people associated with the killers, you were just looking for the killers, why can't the CID just do that?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, terrorism was the primary function of the Security Police and the countering of terrorism and the detecting of terrorism.  The Detective Branch did not have the ability to identify a person at face value and I believe that there had been a connection between the Detective Branch and the Security Branch.

MR RAMAWELE: I go back to my question, when you went to Durban, do you have knowledge as to the killers, what kind of information did you have about the killers of the police officers?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, as far as I can remember, it was that it was members, it was terrorists and if I can remember correctly, it was members of MK and that these people had to be looked for.  This was given high priority.

MR RAMAWELE: Now did you have perhaps the address where these killers were living?