Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-23

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: K-h-a-t-l-a-k-e.

ADV MEMANI: Do you know Constable Tulo?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: No Sir.

ADV MEMANI: And Constable Samuel Sinyane?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I do not know him.

ADV MEMANI: Your rank around '86 was constable?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That's correct.

ADV MEMANI: Now, who has said that you participated in the assault of students who were detained at Botshabelo Police Station sometime around 1986, what is your comment?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Sir, I say I've never worked in Botshabelo, I do not know those students.  I've never been to them.  Even here in Bloemfontein it was not my duty to arrest students.

ADV MEMANI: Oupa Makubalo was a student isn't it?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is so.

ADV MEMANI: And you were present when he was arrested isn't it?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: So you did in fact arrest students isn't it?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I was not arresting the students.  Motsamai arrived - let me explain this to you, he requested help and I was in the kitchen.  He did not specify, he said to the men who were there: the men who killed my informer is at a certain place, I was told by my other informer, go help me arrest him.

ADV MEMANI: If you had been given instructions to arrest students would you not have complied to the instruction?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Who would give me such an instruction?

ADV MEMANI: Persons in command.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Sir, if - you're not talking of the section head or the commanding officer, if they give me an instruction I would go and carry it out and this person came asking for help.

ADV MEMANI: And if you had been given instructions to go arrest at Botshabelo you would have gone obviously.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Sir, if the instructions are from the commanding officer, what would I do if he says all the sections should take part, what would I really do, I must comply.

ADV MEMANI: Now you've known about these proceedings for about six months isn't it?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Which proceedings Sir.

ADV MEMANI: About this hearing, for no less than six months now, isn't it.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct, even though I do not remember how many months, but if you're saying it's six months, well I know about this.

ADV MEMANI: Now throughout, you knew that Ngo was alleging that you were working at Botshabelo isn't it?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is so.

ADV MEMANI: And throughout that time you have not taken any steps to produce proof that you were working at a place other than Botshabelo?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Sir, I have never worked to Botshabelo.  When you cross the street just outside here, you are at the office where I work.  They will take out the files, tell you when did I start working here.  I have never worked in Botshabelo.

ADV MEMANI: And you did for instance carry a pocket book isn't it?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: No Sir.

ADV MEMANI: You've had duty sheets isn't it?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: What is a duty sheet, Sir?

ADV MEMANI: I think you refer to it as a SAP15, if I'm not mistaken.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: No I've never seen that in the security branch, I know that it exists in the stations.

ADV MEMANI: Isn't there some form of record of your movements daily or what you do daily?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I did not have a pocket book so I did not record what I did yesterday and what I did the day thereafter.

ADV MEMANI: Now have you ever heard of any activists house that was bombed in the township here?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That's correct.

ADV MEMANI: If I may take instructions Chairperson.
	Now I want us to deal with the incident involving Oupa.  First of all you say that you were working with trade unions, isn't it?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And you say you did not know Citi Mzuzwana?  My instructions are that you knew Citi Mzuzwana.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Sir, I knew Citi after a long time that I've been here in Bloemfontein.  Jani Mohape was working with SAWU who was helping Mohape to organise, that's when I started knowing him.  I think it was in 1988.

ADV MEMANI: So at some stage you did come to know Citi Mzuzwana?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And he was an organiser of SAWU?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I knew him as the person who was helping Mr Jani Mohape, he was his assistant.

ADV MEMANI: Now you told us that Motsamai told you that he had got the information about the whereabouts of the men who killed his informer.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct Sir.

ADV MEMANI: Now you must be mistaken because it is Mamome who came and said that Motsamai or rather that the person who killed Kosi, had been seen somewhere.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is not true.

ADV MEMANI: Now, we were told that Oupa was standing at the gate when you people first approached.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: If I remember well Sir, this man was standing at the tree with the others.  I do not know whether he was standing at the gate but he standing at the tree with others.

ADV MEMANI: You see, Oupa himself told us that he had been with a companion who left him at the gate and went to the shop and when you approached he was alone.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is not so.  I'm telling you what I saw.

ADV MEMANI: Now, you say that when you arrived there, the applicant, Mr Motsamai, started shooting?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is so Sir, he jumped out of the car, he chased this person, he was already running away.

ADV MEMANI: Who was driving?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I do not want to commit myself, I do not remember.

ADV MEMANI: And where were you sitting in the vehicle?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I was sitting the second seat starting from the back, that was the second seat from the back.

ADV MEMANI: Now if this were a 10 seater it would be the middle seat?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: The second seat from the back.  I do not know whether it was in the middle or what but it was the second seat from the back.

ADV MEMANI: But how many rows of seats did this vehicle have?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: It was called a 16 seater, I found it here at security branch.

ADV MEMANI: And where was Motsamai seated?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: He was sitting next to the sliding door.

ADV MEMANI: And that was on the left hand side?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Yes Sir.

ADV MEMANI: And did you consult with your lawyers about this evidence about the incident involving Oupa?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Yes Sir.

ADV MEMANI: And were all the people who were present on the occasion when Oupa was shot present at the consultation?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I was called alone by my lawyer. I was alone, I was not called with the others.

ADV MEMANI: When were you called?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: It was last year.  I went to Pretoria to meet with him.  I do not remember the month.

ADV MEMANI: Was that the same occasion as when the rest of the people went in a Kombi and you were called into the attorney's office one by one?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I was driving with my car, I've never driven with people in the Kombi.

ADV MEMANI: Now you told your lawyers at that stage that Motsamai was sitting on the left hand side next to the sliding door.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I did not say that.

ADV MEMANI: You didn't tell them?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: They did not ask me that.

ADV MEMANI: Did they ask you who shot first?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: They did not ask me who shot first. They asked who shot not first, who shot.

ADV MEMANI: And you told that Motsamai shot.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: What did you say that Oupa was at the stage when Motsamai shot?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I do not remember whether they asked me that, I do not remember.

ADV MEMANI: Did you describe the incident to them?