Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

JOE MAMASELA: Others were kicking and others were doing a lot of things, others were punching at him while he was down and we were also struggling to keep him down because he was struggling to stand up.  So it was not like we were all three one time holding him and others beating him up, no, no, no.
	Some of us with stand up and you know you move away, some of us were afraid that we might be hit by the iron, we'll jump to the others to the safer side and then the victim will have freedom to move where you relented and then he'll move that side and once he moved that side the other will come you know join that side.  	It was a beehive activity, it was not like a scene, a stage managed thing where a man lies there and you pretend to be assaulting him, all of you no, it was not like that, it was a real war.

MR LAMEY: There must have been moments when the stifling was released during the assault, is that what you're saying?

JOE MAMASELA: The what?

MR LAMEY: Your and Piet Mogoai's attempts to smother his screams by stifling him as well as that Beeslaar, there must have been moments during the assault when you had to release that, is that correct?

JOE MAMASELA: No, that is correct, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: And did he continue screaming?

JOE MAMASELA: He kept on, continued screaming, that's why the stick was fetched to smother his neck and to stifle his voice.

MR LAMEY: And while the stick was used he was also hit with an iron pipe and kicked and assaulted?

JOE MAMASELA: At all material times.

MR LAMEY: Now if that was so Mr Mamasela and you wanted to stifle the screams and everyone knew that he was screaming, how did it happen that you and Piet Mogoai and Beeslaar weren't also struck by blows?

JOE MAMASELA: I was not struck, I don't know about Piet, I don't know about Beeslaar, they can tell you whether they were struck or not.
	I was very careful, I always moved away from there, especially the pipe iron.  I was always making sure that I move away from it.

MR LAMEY: But if you move away, then you would release ...[intervention]

JOE MAMASELA: I will release ....[intervention]

MR LAMEY: The grip and then he will scream.

JOE MAMASELA: And then he will scream and somebody will come and stifle him and while this man beats, and he was also careful, he was not beating as if he was a blind or he was blindfolded.  He was looking at where he was beating and he knew his colleagues were there.

MR LAMEY: And where were the other two deceased at that time when he was assaulted?

JOE MAMASELA: They were still locked up in the shed.

MR LAMEY: Did they keep quiet?

JOE MAMASELA: They were locked up in the shed, they didn't see what was happening outside.

MR LAMEY: What was Koole doing at this stage?

JOE MAMASELA: Koole was also in the frenzy, he was in that frenzy that was kicking and punching these people and he was stamping on his head with his feet.

MR LAMEY: Did you recall that specifically, that Koole was stamping him on his head with his feet?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, I said they were stamped with their feet and they were assaulted, yes.   You asked me specifically what he was doing, what must I say.  I said he was in that frenzy.  Now you'll say: "You are introducing a new thing, why didn't you say it in your statement"?  It's funny.

MR LAMEY: Ja, because later you make specific reference to him, what Koole did but nothing in this first assault in your statement you make any reference to Koole stamping with his feet on his head.

JOE MAMASELA: You are asking me now, I couldn't put everything there.  You know if you ask me to recall something that happened my subconscious mind is ignited by your questions, by your line of aggressive questioning, now I can recall, that's how the human mind works.

MR LAMEY: You said further in your statement
"I saw that blood was coming out of his mouth and his ears and he became lame.  Piet Mogoai and I got a fright and stood aside"

JOE MAMASELA: ...[inaudible] which was collaborated to a certain extent by your own client Piet Mogoai.

MR LAMEY: Why did you get a fright?

JOE MAMASELA: No, it's human when you see a human being bleeding profusely through nostrils and ears and mouth and he's making this gargle and his eyes are turning.  To me it's a human thing for you to jump aside and get a fright because we were the ones who were closer to him, you know stifling him.

MR LAMEY: Well I want to put it to you that Mr Piet Mogoai never said that he got a fright as to what was going on, he had to move away in order to avoid some of the blows.

JOE MAMASELA: Oh, if that is his version then it's fine but he followed me when I jumped out with fright, he followed me.

MR LAMEY: Why would you get a fright if you knew that the purpose is to eliminate these people?

JOE MAMASELA: You know eliminate, you put it nicely, you put it very nicely.  You know, if you're going to butcher a human being, you butcher a human being and you say you cannot get a fright.  I'm not like you, I'm human.
	Eliminating is one thing, butchering a human being is another.  Those people were never killed, they were slaughtered, worse than you can kill your own dog.

MR LAMEY: In how many killings were you involved before he PEBCO 3 incident?

JOE MAMASELA: Many killings I was involved as a person, as Joe Mamasela.  I never got involved in many killings as an individual.  I got into killing as a collectively, not as an individual.

MR LAMEY: In how many killings were you involved prior tot he PEBCO 3 incident Mr Mamasela?

JOE MAMASELA: I was involved in the Mxgenge killing and we were about four.  And in that incident also I'm the one - my honourable learned friend Mr Booyens can tell you about that, that I did not even, I held the man down whilst he was ...[indistinct] and until one of my stopped me.
	And he can go further as to how I gave evidence there, that I was the one who was most sympathetic.  I was the one who ordered Nofumela to stop cutting the man's throat and I took the knife away from Nofumela, you can ask him.  I took the knife to the car.  
	Nofumela went berserk, he went to the car, he took a tyre lever and he came and beat the man and I took the tyre lever again, you can ask him.  So, it was not a new thing for me to get a fright when somebody was killed in that fashion, it was my nature.

MR LAMEY: Was the Mxgenge killing the only first one that you were involved in prior to the PEBCO 3 incident?

JOE MAMASELA: There was the killing of that so-called diamond dealer by one of your brethren, Dirk Coetzee.

MR LAMEY: And why are you referring to him as "my brethren"?

JOE MAMASELA: He's white, you are white.

MR LAMEY: I thought that colour doesn't make a difference to you?

JOE MAMASELA: No, it makes a difference.

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Mamasela, let's not get into that.

JOE MAMASELA: Thanks Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose why you were asked about other previous incidents is because you say you got a fright and you left.  I suppose the question is: "If you had in the past killed so many people, how come that you could have got a fright on that day"?

JOE MAMASELA: No, he's specifically asking me Mr Chairman, as to prior to the PEBCO 3.  Not many people were killed by me prior to that, that's why I mentioning these incidents where I played a little role and my role in all incidents ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, let ...[intervention]

JOE MAMASELA: The fear, the fright factor is there in all instances ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: For the sake progress, I think then let's reframe it.  He is saying: "Well, it was not your first occasion to kill, why take a fright"?

JOE MAMASELA: No, then I'd tell it's inherent in my nature, I'm human.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, thank you.

MR LAMEY: Prior to that, when the assault started on Mr Hashe, when you wanted to give food to the PEBCO 3 people he said to you
"Do not give them food, they are going to die in any case"
Is that correct?