Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-19

MR LAX: But just - I'm now confused because I thought you said earlier, you may not have used the word "fall", but you said that
"The bedroom door was closed and the people got into the bedroom from some other place"
And my understanding is that they must opened the bedroom from another side, and the hardboards you mentioned in your evidence-in-chief.  So I'm now puzzled.

FLORENCE MOLETE: This shack fell at the back and in front and also in the middle.  In the middle is the wall separating the kitchen from the bedroom.  These were very soft hardboards.

MR LAX: Now explain the one at the back and the front then, just so we get a clear picture in total.

FLORENCE MOLETE: This other side was also closed and this side we have a kitchen door, it fell at that side as I'm indicating and also in the front.  And then in the middle, the wall that was separating the kitchen from the bedroom also fell.

CHAIRPERSON: So is the position that, you see the door from the outside goes into the kitchen and then from the kitchen you go into the bedroom.  Now the door fell, together with the surrounding walls?

FLORENCE MOLETE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  And then the wall in-between the kitchen and the bedroom also gave in?

FLORENCE MOLETE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Did any other wall fall, apart from these two that you've just mentioned?

FLORENCE MOLETE: This part that is on the side of the street did not fall, it only fell as I'm indicating here.

MR LAX: So how did people get into the bedroom then?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Others entered from behind.  As they were entering they broke down the shack, so the back part of the shack fell.  There were other people who were in the kitchen with me and there were other people who were in the bedroom with Miriam.

MR LAX: Now I understand you properly, thank you.

MR STRYDOM: I see it's six past eleven.

CHAIRPERSON: It is.  Very well, we will take the tea adjournment and resume at half past eleven.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

FLORENCE MOLETE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson.  Chairperson, I handed out a further document, which I would ask to be marked HH.  That is this witness' - II.  That is this witness' evidence at the Goldstone Commission, which I will refer to later.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Now this document is?

MR STRYDOM: That's the evidence of this witness that was given at the Goldstone Commission, at the hearing which was held at Vereeniging.

CHAIRPERSON: Did this Commission make any findings?

MR STRYDOM: No, not as far as I'm aware.

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose if it had, Mr Lowies would us have asked us to declare our ...(indistinct)

MR BERGER: I can confirm that Judge Goldstone says he's waiting for the outcome of the appeal, before he makes a finding.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean to the Supreme Court of Appeal?

MR BERGER: Indeed, yes.

MR STRYDOM: Just before the attackers came into the shack, what was the light inside the shack?  If you can start with the kitchen where you were.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you continue - at least this document has numbers.  I think in future we should endeavour to paginate documents, if a document has more than one page, but at least this one does have pages we can refer to, page 265 and so on.  Anyway, yes?

MR STRYDOM: Did you get the question?  I want to know, the light in the kitchen before the attack started.

FLORENCE MOLETE: With a lamp.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you here when the witness gave evidence?

MR STRYDOM: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR STRYDOM: What I want to know, was that source of light there right through until after the attack, or did something happen in-between?

FLORENCE MOLETE: The paraffin lamp was on and it fell on the ground.

MR STRYDOM: And the light went out, is that right?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Was that during the attack?

FLORENCE MOLETE: That is when the attackers had already entered the house.

MR STRYDOM: Was there any source of light in the bedroom section?

FLORENCE MOLETE: The attackers were assaulting me, so I don't know what was happening in the bedroom.

MR STRYDOM: Whilst you were under attack, did you try to get out of the shack to go outside?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: And was it at that stage when you got outside, that you saw this person which you thought to be a white person?

MR BERGER: I don't believe the witness said she thought him to be a white person, she said he was a white person.

MR STRYDOM: So she definitely said she thought him to be a white person.  Later on she gave a description and then she said that according to her he was a white person, but the note I've got here has got the word "thought", but nothing turns around that, I just want to know, to get the sequence right.
	When you went outside and you saw the person which you later described to be a white person, is that correct?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How far out did you go?

FLORENCE MOLETE: I was crawling on the stoep, when I lifted my head I saw this man.

MR STRYDOM: And did he say anything or not, this man you saw, the white person?

FLORENCE MOLETE: He was just standing looking inside the shack.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but did he say anything? - if you can recall.

FLORENCE MOLETE: He was just standing and looking inside.

MR STRYDOM: And just to get clarity, that's the only white person which you saw during the course of the attack, is that correct?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Yes, that's the person.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that is the person.

FLORENCE MOLETE: He was standing outside.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think the question was, is that the only white man that you saw during the attack?

FLORENCE MOLETE: When I went outside I saw him.

MR LAX: You're not understanding the question, let me try and help you here.  You're being asked;  during the whole attack, besides this one man, did you see any other white people?  Do you understand?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Yes, I understand.

MR LAX: So the answer is either yes or no, it's as simple as that.

FLORENCE MOLETE: In the kitchen there were only black men and then I saw this man.  When they ran out I only recognised one.  I saw two, I recognised two.

CHAIRPERSON: Two what?

FLORENCE MOLETE: They were wearing camouflage clothes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, were these white men?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Yes, they were white.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's get this right.  Now at what stage did you say you saw these white men?  Where were these white men who were wearing camouflage?

FLORENCE MOLETE: While I was crawling to the outside I saw this one man and then when they were all running out ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

FLORENCE MOLETE: ... then I realised that he was not the only white person.

MR LAX: And what made you to realise this?

FLORENCE MOLETE: He was easily recognisable.

MR LAX: Just explain what you mean by that, "easily recognisable".

FLORENCE MOLETE: There's a difference between a white person and a black person.

MR LAX: And what was this difference that you noticed?

FLORENCE MOLETE: A white person's nose is longer than a black person's nose.

MR LAX: Anything that you noticed that helped you come to this realisation?

FLORENCE MOLETE: That is his height.

MR LAX: Anything else?

CHAIRPERSON: What about his height?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Normally Sotho people are short and white people are tall.

MR LAX: Anything else?

FLORENCE MOLETE: That's the only thing that I remember.

MR LAX: Did this other person also have a balaclava on?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Yes, the second person that I realised that he was white, he had a balaclava on.

MR LAX: And just so I'm clear in my own mind, you noticed him when they were running away you said, when they were leaving the shack, is that right?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Yes.

MR LAX: Where were you at that stage? - just so we can be clear about that.

FLORENCE MOLETE: I was in the kitchen pretending to be dead, but I was watching them.