Amnesty Hearings — Phokeng — 1996-05-20

MR MOKGATLE: It was very difficult for us by that time.  I don't know whether I would be allowed to explain a bit regarding our struggle here in Phokeng.  We tried by all means, we as the Baphokeng tribe, trying to get the government to solve our problems which we had, as the Baphokeng tribe.  I still remember, if I remember well on the 10th of July 1990, we wrote a letter to President FW de Klerk and we said in the letter please come and talk to the Bophuthatswana Government, so that we, as we try to meet him as the Baphokeng tribe, he must attend to our needs or to the call, and the central Government, that is that these things are now so much developed, we don't understand them any more.  The central Government under the presidency of Mr De Klerk, when they answered us, they sent us the message that we share your needs of the Baphokeng tribe, but I can't get into your problems because they are not mine.  That is the answer was from the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr Pik Botha, who answered us by saying that.  We tried again, we
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as the Baphokeng tribe, that we are not satisfied about the
way you answered us, Mr De Klerk; please reply us in a satisfactory manner before we go to the international community.  When the second letter came up, the letter said the Baphokeng, for the Bophuthatswana Government to come in and negotiate with you, that is when we started writing letters to the Bophuthatswana Government, to come and negotiate with us.  And we explained to the Boputhatswana Government that firstly, we want them to explain to us about the millions of rands which are coming from our mines, where are those rands going to.  Secondly, they had to explain to us what was Mr Edward Molokegtle fault, because he was chucked away from Phokeng.  
	The former Bophuthatswana Government replied by saying he doesn't want anything from us, because our letter didn't reach him through the acting Chief.  We then started coming into the problems we had with the keys, because we knew that if we could get hold of those keys, we lock away all the crooks who were staying here.  (Applause).The people who burgled or treat the people and came to share the money here, we as the Baphokeng, we didn't build these offices so that people could do any crookery in there.  We build them for people like you, so that they can come to solve their problems of the Baphokeng tribe here.  (Applause).
	I am through, thank you.

HASSAN MALL: Can I just intervene at this stage.  I would like to please appeal to the public that this is a serious enquiry and not a mass meeting.  Please, refrain from clapping, because it detracts us in the performance of our serious duty.  I kindly appeal to you to restrain from clapping and expressing your feelings and your emotions. I
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understand you have strong feelings about what you are
hearing here, but kindly realise that we have a solemn function to perform and we would like you to refrain from expressing your pleasure or delight or anger by clapping or making any kind of comment.  I would very much appreciate it if you did not do it.  Thank you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I have no further questions, Mr Chairperson, thank you.

HASSAN MALL: You may stand down.  Thank you very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED
END TAPE 1  -  DAY 2 - SIDE A
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TAPE 1 - DAY2 -  SIDE B

MR CURRIN: ... lead in support of certain aspects and he did indicate informally to make certain indications to us, but nothing is on the record.  So at this stage we are not yet in a position to know the extent to which we are going to have to call witnesses to substantiate certain aspects of that document.
	Secondly, we have had a number of meetings, two in fact, with members of the national executive of the African National Congress and we were advised that a person would be here today to testify on behalf of that organisation in respect of certain critical issues.  We have not seen that person here yet, and in the circumstances that would have been our next witness.  In the circumstances we would ask if our learned colleagues here could commence with their evidence. I know this would be contrary to the guidelines, but we would ask your indulgence to be able to - so that proceedings can continue, to be able to call the witness from the African National Congress afterwards.
	Thirdly, I should mention, we have also consulted with family - certainly, two sons of the deceased, who indicated that they would like to testify.  Now I believe that the Commission counsel have also consulted with those sons of the deceased and I assume that they will be called by the Commission and would not be necessary for us to call them. But I would like to place on record that if they are not called by the Commission counsel, then we would certainly like to call them.  Thank you, Sir.

HASSAN MALL: Have you any indication as to when the witness you would like to call, will be here?
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MR CURRIN: We were told that the witness would be here at approximately 09:00 to 09:30 this morning.  We were also told that there would be communication with us via a cellular telephone. I have not been able to turn mine on since the proceedings commenced.  We did also discuss this issue last night with a very senior member of the MEC and we were told that a person would be here.  So I can't say exactly what time, but the moment we break for tea we would certainly follow that up, Sir.

HASSAN MALL: Speaking for myself, and I might be expressing the views of my colleagues, I think we have sufficient information before us on matters relating to the history of the tribe, its recent history at any rate, and its difficulties with the government of the time at that time.  I think that we are more concerned, not with that, whilst it is important to have that as part of the background, but if there is evidence to be led, I think we would appreciate if that evidence have a direct bearing on the actual events that occurred and that resulted in the two applicants being charged and convicted of murder.  So if there is any evidence of that aspect of the matter that you propose calling, then I will be prepared to hear all that, but I am just indicating that we might save a great deal of time hearing about the early history of the tribe and so on.

MR CURRIN: Mr Chairman, there is one small issue that needs to be placed on record.  We believe in order to discharge our onus in terms of the Act, I think it would be appropriate for me to discuss it with you at - to discuss maybe that point with the Committee during the tea break, just to ensure that our thinking is correct, because as I said earlier on, this is the first time that the provisions
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of the Act are being applied and interpreted.  Certainly the evidence from that person, from the African National Congress would be very short.  It would not be lengthy and it won't go in again to the history. It is a question of - as I say, one small aspect of the Act that we believe we need to comply with to succeed.

HASSAN MALL: You will have an opportunity of calling that witness, and I am hoping that he is available.  Very well.  Mr Mphshe, have you any objections to proceeding with your side of the case, if you propose calling witnesses?  Are you in a position to call your witnesses at this stage?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I am in a position to call my witness at this stage, but I have just been informed, and I did convey this to my colleague, that the witness he intends calling from the ANC is seated in the gallery, and I ask that he call him, seeing he is available, before I call my witness.  I have relayed this to my colleague.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Currin, it seems that you are not aware of the fact that your witness is here.