Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-08-24

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, if my memory serves me well, the reason was that the person who put the question in Parliament, wanted to see this Policeman.  He wanted to know to which Unit this policeman specifically belonged.
	In other words, there couldn't be any kind of evasion that such a policeman did exist.

CHAIRPERSON: What was this person supposed to have done, was there an indication?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: The person?

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand this extract from the Parliamentary proceedings, it would seem to indicate that Mr P.O. Sole posed these questions to the Minister?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: In regard to a certain person whose name has been furnished to the South African Police?  What was this person supposed or alleged to have done?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, with regard to the documentation that was sent to us at that time from the Police Liaison Department at Parliament, I don't have that in my possession.  It was in Afrikaans and it was more extensively phrased than what it is phrased in the Hansard extract.
	I am still under the impression that the person who put the question, knew that there was an Askari involved here, he knew what was going on.  He was merely very subtle in the manner in which he put his questions in Parliament.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the Minister being asked whether Tshabalala had joined, a former of the ANC, had joined the members of the South African Police, was that a question?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I have a recollection of that.  They wanted this person.  The request was to produce the man, and then they would have the Askari and the rest of the situation.

CHAIRPERSON: According to this extract, this was raised some time in October 1987?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct, that is the date that appears here.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  As far as you can recall, was there any suggestion that perhaps Tshabalala had been involved in the killing of the deceased Ndondo?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I could say yes, because that sounds right, but I can't actually remember.  If I were to look at all the effort which we put in to concealing Tshabalala's true identity, to the effect that he still can't regain his former name at this point, then that would be the correct inference.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  So your interest in this, in concealing the identity of Mr Tshabalala was to make sure that the world doesn't know that Tshabalala, an Askari, was working for the South African Police?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.   The same request was not directed for Dandala or Morse or Shosha.

CHAIRPERSON: Norma Shosha, there was no request ...

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Norma Shosha yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So the concealment of the identity of Mr Tshabalala had nothing to do with the criminal proceedings that were commenced shortly after the killing of the deceased?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I wouldn't be able to say.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand your evidence, what really sparked the change of the identity, was the question in Parliament.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Which was addressed to the Minister as to whether they do have a person, a former member of the ANC, who was now working for the police?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And as I understand the chain of events, the Minister of Law and Order then would make enquiries from the Commissioner of Police at the time?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the Commissioner of Police would in turn, direct the query to the Head of the Security Branch?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time it was Brigadier Van der Merwe?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And Brigadier Van der Merwe would in turn direct the query to is it Captain or Brigadier ...

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Brigadier Schoon.

CHAIRPERSON: Brigadier Schoon?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What position did he have at the time, Brigadier Schoon?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: He was the Head of Section C.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, that is Vlakplaas?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Under which Vlakplaas fell.

CHAIRPERSON: And then because you were the Commander of the Vlakplaas, Brigadier Schoon would then direct the query to you?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And were you given instructions by Brigadier Schoon, to conceal the identity of Mr Tshabalala?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he give you any reason for that?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, he would have.  It was connected to the shooting incident in Transkei.  However, I don't want to sketch a scenario for you in order for it to fit in or look correct, I can only give you what I truly know.

CHAIRPERSON: Because as I understand the position, the shooting or the killing of the deceased had occurred some three years ago, was it three years ago?  Some two years ago, was it, 1985?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And Mr Tshabalala had been appearing in court?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: In connection with the killing, but what really led to the change of his identity, was the query in Parliament as to whether there was an Askari that was working for the police?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.  My hypothesis would then be that the cover up wasn't working any more.  The question had been put in Parliament, and we couldn't conceal it any more.  Now we had to search for another manner in which to defeat the ends of justice.
	That then resulted in the change of identity.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what explanation was given for the sudden disappearance of Tshabalala for the purposes of the criminal trial in the Transkei?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I wouldn't want to speculate, but I think that something was said to the effect that the man isn't here any more, he is on an investigation, or he has left the country, it was one of those two.
	I have a vague recollection of that, and that he wasn't available, that he couldn't be found.

CHAIRPERSON: ... the court that an accused person cannot attend court, simply because he is on some investigation?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson.  If we weren't able to find him at that point in time, he wouldn't be able to testify or be tried.  The case would be scrapped from the roll, and we would hope that it would be forgotten in time.

CHAIRPERSON: But I would have thought that if an accused person doesn't appear in court, a warrant of arrest would be issued against that person?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson, yes.  However, they would be looking for Tshabalala and not for Mavusu.  Tshabalala is not a shadow, and he was gone.
	For all official purposes, Tshabalala was simply not available.

CHAIRPERSON: Did someone from Vlakplaas convey to the Investigating Officer or to the Prosecutor or to the Attorney General of the Transkei, that Tshabalala has disappeared?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I could imagine that somewhere in the documents I spotted something where mention is made that Tshabalala is not available.  It is in one of those documents.  I could study it once again this evening and see if I could trace it.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you, if you don't mind.  Is it possible that Tshabalala could have come to the Transkei and make a statement of and concerning the death of the deceased without you knowing about that statement?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson, I would have approved the journey from Pretoria to the Transkei for the purposes of making statements.
	I wouldn't have any control over the exact statement which was to be taken.