Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-29

PROF DE KOKER: Did you go to listen?

WALTER SMILES: I went to listen.  I was in the court, I wanted to see who these people were that were being accused.

PROF DE KOKER: You went and listened at the court?

WALTER SMILES: I went to have a look, I wanted to see who these people were that were being charged and then I saw it was Sipho Mbatwa and Kotla, then I didn't go back, I didn't go and sit there again.

PROF DE KOKER: What did Major Mbatha do at that stage?

WALTER SMILES: We were chased away, what could we do?  We couldn't do anything else.

PROF DE KOKER: The people were found guilty and sent to jail, what did you do then?

WALTER SMILES: We still couldn't do anything.  You can't stop the law and tell them that these people shouldn't go to jail.

PROF DE KOKER: The next statement of yours that we have, which is the one dated June, the statement you made when Sipho and Doctor Alex Boraine came to talk to you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: That's on page 11?

PROF DE KOKER: That is on page 11 of the second bundle of documents.
	That statement was incorrect, is that correct?

WALTER SMILES: Yes.  I didn't have any trust in these people and I went personally to them and they were at home, then my sister told me the investigation unit was here and they said they were looking for me, I had to go and see them at the Savoy Hotel.  And I went to the Savoy Hotel and I found them there, I asked them: "What's going to happen to me now because I'm now telling the truth"?  They didn't say anything to me, they just looked at me.  I asked them: "Can I go home now"? and they said nothing, so I made up my own mind because the only thing they were going to do was to leave me alone - they didn't even take me home.  My intention was to go and tell the whole truth and then I had to make this statement but this statement is totally not the truth.

PROF DE KOKER: They didn't' give you any explanation?

WALTER SMILES: My intention was - my question was: "Could I go home", if they were honest they would have said to me: "Smiles, you can go home, the whole thing is going like", so why did I have to go and make this statement?  So I went to the Major early in the morning and explained to him that I'd lied to those people and then he said to me: "No, you must go and tell the truth".  If they'd explained it properly to me, I would have told the truth right at the beginning and that statement would not have been made.

PROF DE KOKER: What were you scared of?

WALTER SMILES: You could - it's the first time I'd met people like that, I didn't understand the nature of the TRC or what could happen.

PROF DE KOKER: What were you scared of, what did you think could happen to you?

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe - if you don't mind Professor de Koker, maybe we should adjourn until half past eleven.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

WALTER SMILES: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Professor de Koker?

PROF DE KOKER: (cont)
	Mr Smiles, you said you felt threatened by the TRC representatives and the circumstances, what were you afraid of?

WALTER SMILES: The threat was, what would happened - I asked them why they didn't go to Laurens, why did they come to me.

PROF DE KOKER: What do mean when you say you wanted to know what you would get in years, what did you mean by this?

WALTER SMILES: Just explain to me again.

PROF DE KOKER: You just said - and I just missed that part of the sentence, you said they didn't explain properly to you and you were scared - and then you said something about years, were you scared you were going to be sent to jail?

WALTER SMILES: What happened - I didn't understand how the TRC worked and they didn't explain it to me.  I was sure I was going to jail, I didn't say they were going to send me to jail.

PROF DE KOKER: And you were scared of going to jail?

WALTER SMILES: No, if they explained it nicely to me I would have given all the information.    (transcriber's own translation)

PROF DE KOKER: But you said you felt threatened, you were scared of going to jail.

WALTER SMILES: Just explain - understand me very well Mr de Koker, I felt I would go to jail, I didn't say they said I was going to jail.

PROF DE KOKER: You didn't like that feeling, you didn't want to go to jail and that's why you were scared, is that right?

WALTER SMILES: Please explain to me again.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it that you don't understand about this question?

WALTER SMILES: I don't understand this question very clearly, please explain it very carefully.

CHAIRPERSON: Answer the way you think you understand it, we'll tell you whether you didn't understand it.  Answer the question the way you understand it.

WALTER SMILES: Please just explain to me again.

CHAIRPERSON: What is that you don't understand about this question, is it a difficult question?

WALTER SMILES: No, please explain clearly to me and then I can explain to him what I want to say.

CHAIRPERSON: You must listen very carefully and if you don't understand Afrikaans, then you must tell us in which language you want to hear it.

WALTER SMILES: Afrikaans is fine but ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you can't after every five minutes keep on asking for an explanation of even simple questions.
	Professor de Koker, try to explain that question to him again.

PROF DE KOKER: Mr Smiles, what were you scared of, what made you feel threatened?  Which bad things could happen to you if you told the truth to Doctor Boraine and Sipho?

WALTER SMILES: If they'd explained to me properly beforehand, I would have told them the truth.

PROF DE KOKER: But you did not tell them the truth, why not?

WALTER SMILES: Because I couldn't understand how the TRC worked.

PROF DE KOKER: What were you scared of?  What were you scared of, what could happen to you if you told them the whole truth?

WALTER SMILES: I also asked myself what would happen if I told the truth.

PROF DE KOKER: And how did you answer that?  What were you scared of?  What did you think could happen to you if you told the truth?

WALTER SMILES: What I thought was that I would go to jail that same day, that's what I thought.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I interpose Professor de Koker?  Mr Smiles did you know anything about the TRC?

WALTER SMILES: Nothing, it was my first encounter with the TRC.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now, did Sipho and Boraine explain to you what the TRC was and why you had to make a statement to them that day?

WALTER SMILES: No, I cannot remember such a thing.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What did they say to you, what was it that they first said?  Did they simply say: "Give us a statement about the incident in question"?

WALTER SMILES: No, I asked them why didn't they go to Laurens, why did they come to me, why not go to Laurens.  This is why I made up my own mind - if they explained it to me nicely, I would have told the truth.  Obviously my intention was to tell the truth, I was honest.  I actually went to them in all honesty and then I had made a decision to lie under oath.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What was it that was said to you that made you to lie in particular?

WALTER SMILES: When I asked: "Am I going home", nothing was said and I was just looked at like this, then I walked out and I went home out of my own because I thought I'm going out of honesty to give full information to the TRC.  If they explained to me nicely what the nature was, what could happen, what is what, then I could I could have explained it nicely to them what went for what.    (transcriber's own translation)

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: Why then explain to them that Major Laurens approached you in terms of a volunteer that would throw a hand grenade and furthermore you also stated that Laurens told you that it was necessary to identify a perpetrator or a volunteer for the incident and he never told you why?