Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-17

BONGA KHUMALO: I would like to apologise.  I would like to apologise on his behalf.  I think it was his way of dragging me into this.
	I would like to dispute that.

CHAIRPERSON: You are aware of the incident that you are being questioned about, is not the incident of Ms Mokoena and Nduno, it is an incident that relates to the killing of one Maletsatsi.

BONGA KHUMALO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe says that you were amongst those that were hunting Maletsatsi with a view to killing him?

BONGA KHUMALO: Chairperson, I think I have explained that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  So you are saying you were not amongst the persons that Mr Radebe has stated in his affidavit?  Ms Thabete, let's proceed.

ADV BOSMAN: Ms Thabete, can I just clear up something here because I may forget it later on.
	Mr Khumalo, do you know the name Kennel Paulus Malukwane?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, I know him.

ADV BOSMAN: Was he also a Unit Commander?

BONGA KHUMALO: No, I have no idea with regard to his district.

ADV BOSMAN: Can't you tell us anything more about him?

BONGA KHUMALO: What I know is that he was a member of Umkhonto weSizwe and he was operating in that district.  I know him to have been a camp colleague outside the country.

ADV BOSMAN: That will be sufficient thank you.  Sorry for the interruption, thank you.

MS THABETE: Thank you.  Did you know John Radebe to belong to the Unit commanded by Mabuza Mhlongo?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, I know him.

MS THABETE: From when did he belong to this Unit?

BONGA KHUMALO: I don't know.  I don't know how his Commander recruited him, but I know that he belonged to Mabuza's Unit.  I don't know when he started with this Unit.

MS THABETE: In 1992 you arrived in Zone 12, is that correct, sorry in 1990?

MR LAX: He said 1992.

MS THABETE: In 1992, you arrived in Zone 12, isn't that correct?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETE: Was he already a member then of the Unit under Mabuza when you arrived?

BONGA KHUMALO: We had not yet started the Units at the time, I would be telling a lie.

MS THABETE: When did the Units start?

BONGA KHUMALO: I arrived in February 1992, it could have been around June or thereabout.  Even though I am not sure of the month, but it was thereabout.
	I would like to remind you that I said that on my arrival, there were already Units that were in existence and I only became involved when I was assigned to be in charge.  I therefore cannot say who belonged where, but the appointment of Mabuza as a Unit Commander, it was therefore incumbent upon him to recruit his own people.

MS THABETE: Mr Khumalo, I was just asking with regard to Mr Mabuza whether when John Radebe joined the Unit?

BONGA KHUMALO: My apology, really I don't know.

MR LAX: Could I just ask a follow up question, while you are on that issue.
	As far as you know, Radebe only belonged to Mabuza Mhlongo's Unit, is that right?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes.

MR LAX: So you don't know of him belonging to any other Unit?

BONGA KHUMALO: When Mkondo came to our district from another district, he must have belonged to another Unit in that district from which he came.

MR LAX: So you do remember him coming to your district?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Ms Thabete.

MS THABETE: When did he come to your district?

BONGA KHUMALO: I made a mistake by saying I remember.  I just know that he was in our district, I cannot recall exactly when he came to our district.

MS THABETE: Thank you Madam Chair, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete.  Mr Lax, do you have any questions to put?  I am sorry, it must be the lateness of the day.

INTERPRETER: The Chairperson is not coming through.

CHAIRPERSON: Then it definitely is not the lateness of the day, there is something wrong.

INTERPRETER: The sound is not coming through.

CHAIRPERSON: There is a problem with my microphone.

INTERPRETER: I can hear you now, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, do you have any questions to put to Mr Khumalo?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, Mr Khumalo, just for the record, what are your full names please?

BONGA KHUMALO: Bonga Norman Khumalo.

MR LAX: When exactly did you become a Commander?

BONGA KHUMALO: In 1992, it was in the middle of the year.

MR LAX: Was this once you had established some sort of control structure for the SDU's?

BONGA KHUMALO: A member of what?

MR LAX: I said was this once you had established some sort of control structure for the SDU's?

BONGA KHUMALO: That was my first assignment as a Commander.  No.

MR LAX: So, you came to Sebokeng in February 1992 and you were only assigned this task in the middle of 1992?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lax.  Ms Bosman, do you have any questions to put to Mr Khumalo?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Khumalo, were there any rules in regard to the movement of a member of an SDU from one SDU to another or could he just abandon one and join another?

BONGA KHUMALO: Even though it was not a rule, but there was a time that if we wanted reinforcement from another district, we would request other comrades to give us combatants.

ADV BOSMAN: If a member of an SDU had problems with his SDU, could he just say well, now I want to go to another SDU and join that one?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, we used to do that.  It depended on the relationship.

ADV BOSMAN: But there were no rules.  Did he have to apply or how did it come about, this is what I am trying to understand?

BONGA KHUMALO: One does not simply join the SDU, instead one is recruited into a Unit.  One does not necessarily apply, one is appointed.

ADV BOSMAN: If, I have forgotten the other name now, Mr Radebe, if he said that he had problems with his SDU at Small Farm, would it have been necessary for his Zone 12 Commander to recruit him, in order for him to become a member of the Zone 12 SDU?

BONGA KHUMALO: I don't know how his Unit Commander handled that situation in that regard, but it happened in some instances that there would be no good relations among members of a Unit and he would have to decide then to move.
	If the combatants felt that they required the services of a particular combatant, they would recruit him.  He would not simply leave to go and join, they would simply recruit him to come and join.

ADV BOSMAN: And then on the issue of promotion, there was evidence about having undergone an orientation course for underground training.  Do you know of any such courses that Mr Radebe, Mkondo, attended?

BONGA KHUMALO: That was the responsibility of an underground structure, after a person was appointed.

ADV BOSMAN: But do you know anything about it, do you know whether he attended such a course?

BONGA KHUMALO: No.  No, I cannot answer that but because he had - what I am saying here is that as I stated earlier on that he was not operating with me directly, but because he was a member of the SDU, he definitely must have taken the same route.

ADV BOSMAN: Now this incident took place in 1993, do you know whether underground training was still given at that time?

BONGA KHUMALO: That is a very difficult one.  I would rather not answer that one.

ADV BOSMAN: Then there is also evidence given that the two girls were going to be taken to the ANC office in Zone 12, to be questioned.  Would you say that that was in line with the policy at the time?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, such a thing used to happen that if a person was found and known such as in this case, verifications had to be done to that effect.  If you remember what I said earlier on that I for one, was not in the area at the time, so that I did not receive a report to confirm that.

ADV BOSMAN: That is not my question.  My question is simply there was evidence from Mr Mkhwanazi that they were going to take the girls to Zone 12 and question them.  My question is is that in line with the policy of the SDU at the time?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes.