Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1988-01-19

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Just put your earphones on, those of you who cannot understand English.  You, the gentleman that has been putting questions across for clarification has conveyed - I don't know if this is on behalf of everyone of you.  He had conveyed that - after the explanation that I've just given, he has conveyed that they had not properly understood the situation and that they would rather make use of Mr Brink, they want to make use of Mr Brink.  I think that is the position and I'll stop here to converse with the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I propose that we adjourn till 2 o'clock and they will now have an opportunity of discussing the matter with Mr Brink, of satisfying themselves what they want to do.  Would that suit them?  Right.
	Before we adjourn, for the sake of the clarity of the record, I would like to place on record that Mr Stander came to see us in chambers with other counsel this morning and he made us aware of the problems that were facing him and the fact that he might have to withdraw.  
	Thereafter both he and Mr Brink communicated with those responsible for arranging legal aid through the TRC head office in Cape Town.  There were discussions between the interested parties and a final figure was arrived at which did not suit Mr Stander, which he rejected.  
	And it was thereafter that he had - well, while that was going on, we understand that he also had discussions with the victims his clients and Mr Brink was also present at some of these discussions so they were aware of what was taking place so they may not have been aware of the precise reason why Mr Stander wished to withdraw.
	We propose now to adjourn until 2 o'clock and request Mr Brink, that you talk to the victims and see if we can reach some clarity.  Mr Mthembu, we appreciate your position entirely.  It would be I think, very awkward for you having acted for some time for one of the parties and now to be acting for his victims who might want to put a somewhat different complexity on what - complexion on what happened and I think that you can't be expected to put yourself in that position.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Stander, I see you are with us again, could you kindly tell us what the position is?

MR STANDER: Thank you very much, I am back.  There was an agreement which was reached between myself and the representative of the TRC Commission.  The matter has been solved and I'm prepared and I ask to be allowed to act on behalf of the so-called victims, I'm ready to give evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: And the victims agree to that do they?

MR STANDER: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And there are no reservations or if's or but's, you are now ready to act for them?

MR STANDER: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So perhaps we can at last start doing something today.  Carry on.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I will then continue and call Mr Oliphant to the witness stand.

SHADRACK TEKU OLIPHANT: (sworn states)

MR STANDER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Oliphant, in front of you you will see that there are two bundles of documents, affidavits, the one is marked number one and the other one number two.  I would like you to look at number 2, the first affidavit contained therein. Do you have it in front of you?

SHADRACK TEKU OLIPHANT: Yes.

MR STANDER: In the affidavit - without going into detail, you say that you were a victim in the application for amnesty of Mr Ngo and Motsamai, is that correct?

SHADRACK TEKU OLIPHANT: That's correct.

MR STANDER: You say further that you had serious bodily injuries as a results of the actions of the security police because you were tortured, is that correct?

SHADRACK TEKU OLIPHANT: That's correct.

MR STANDER: Is it also correct that the torture was done in order to confirm your activities in the ANC?

SHADRACK TEKU OLIPHANT: That's correct.

MR STANDER: In the last paragraph, excuse me, the second last paragraph, you say that the members of the South African police or rather the security police who participated in your abuse or torture were Captain du Plooy ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: I do not think that - there are certain aspects which one shouldn't ask in such a leading manner.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, the problem I have is that this witness doesn't read very well and it's based on this that I am doing this.

ADV DE JAGER: That's my problem.  If he doesn't read so well then he should depend on his memory to say who detained him.

MR STANDER: I will continue in this way, thank you.
	Mr Oliphant, will you please tell us which members of the security police participated, as you can recall, in this?

SHADRACK TEKU OLIPHANT: Captain du Plooy, Swanepoel, Terreblanche, Motsamai, Ngo.

MR STANDER: Are there any others that you can remember?

SHADRACK TEKU OLIPHANT: Du Plessis.

MR STANDER: Anyone else?

SHADRACK TEKU OLIPHANT: I do not remember the others very well.

MR STANDER: Please tell me, George Muzi, who was that?

SHADRACK TEKU OLIPHANT: George Muzi is my grandfather.

MR STANDER: What happened to him?

SHADRACK TEKU OLIPHANT: We were arrested on the 6th of April 1986, we were 19 in number, we wanted to skip the country.  We resided at George Muzi's house for a long time.  That was after - after I was arrested for trying to skip the country, the police fetched me from the cells and they told me that I killed George Muzi and it was not true, because we left George Muzi in a well condition.  I was surprised how would I kill that person?

MR STANDER: As a result of the death of this person, what was the feelings of the family?

SHADRACK TEKU OLIPHANT: I am hated until this day, my own blood hates me until today.

MR STANDER: Why does your own family hate you?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Stander, in the meantime, Mr Muzi, is that the person who was killed some time?

MR STANDER: That is in fact so Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And in relation to this witness, how is that related to the whole question of amnesty?

MR STANDER: It will be the witness's evidence that some of the members of the security force or police, among others Motsamai and Ngo, spread disinformtion amongst members of the public that it was the witness who killed his own uncle Mr George Muzi.  It is based on this that this evidence is placed before you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I'm not able to bring it into the whole process of amnesty.  Are you calling him just to make use of this platform to vindicate himself?  Precisely how does this link up to the question of amnesty?

MR STANDER: He is a person who was affected as a result of the actions of among others, Ngo and Motsamai, who is being called a murderer by his family while this is not the case.  	Do I have your permission to continue with this?
	Mr Oliphant, are you ready to continue?

SHADRACK TEKU OLIPHANT: Yes.

MR STANDER: The last question that I asked you was based on what is your family accusing you as being the murderer of your uncle? What is the reason for this?

SHADRACK TEKU OLIPHANT: That's correct.  The whole township knew me as the killer of my grandfather.  I stayed with him for quite a long time, everybody saw me staying with him.

MR STANDER: Who was the cause of this information being spread in the black townships?

SHADRACK TEKU OLIPHANT: One of them is Geoffrey Mabilo and the other one is Motsamai and the other white policemen.

MR STANDER: This affidavit which you have in front of you, it was sworn, is that correct?

SHADRACK TEKU OLIPHANT: Which one are you referring to Sir?

MR STANDER: The one that you have in front of you.  It is your statement not so, and your signature which appears on it?  Please look on page 2.

SHADRACK TEKU OLIPHANT: This is my signature outside.

MR STANDER: So that's your signature?

SHADRACK TEKU OLIPHANT: This is not my signature Sir, it was typed.

MR STANDER: The document that you have in front of you, if you look at the other bundle ...[intervention]