Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-01

MR WILLS: Can you explain in as much detail as you can, what your supportive role was personally?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, the role that I played personally, started as I have indicated with the positions of the ANC to support the Self Defence Unit.
	I was then instructed by the then Chief of Staff of Umkhonto weSizwe, Deputy Commander Chris Hani, to be involved in supporting the establishment of the Self Defence Units in Southern Natal.

MR WILLS: What did you do?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Exactly what I did, after meeting with Chris Hani, he provided us mainly with weapons that were to be distributed to all those communities where the communities have decided to set up Self Defence Units.

MR WILLS: Right, and you refer to weapons, what type of weapons are you referring to?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I am referring to weapons such as AK47's, hand grenades, pistols like Macarov, Tokarev, Stechin.

MR WILLS: Can you explain what your personal involvement was in regard to those weapons?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: My personal involvement was in the initial setting up of these Self Defence Units, particularly in the arming of the Self Defence Unit.  I was involved in the initial stages of procuring these weapons which were delivered to Southern Natal.
	Just to describe what exactly happened, these weapons used to come to Southern Natal with cars, we had three vehicles that were used for the distribution of these weapons.
	It was a bakkie, it was a Rover and a VW kombi.  These cars had secret compartments where these weapons were hidden.  What happened is that I got duplicate keys of these cars and plans were made that when a car for example is going to be delivered maybe five o'clock in the afternoon, and then later on, that car would be taken, off load those weapons and then returned later, so there was no direct contact between the person who brought those cars and those weapons and the person who would fetch the vehicle.
	That was my initial particular role of getting the keys, duplicate keys and giving them to the person who are instructed to be involved in the operational aspects of the Self Defence Units in Southern Natal.

MR WILLS: Where would these weapons come from?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, I wouldn't know precisely where they came from, but came, they did come.

MR WILLS: From an organisational point of view, where did they come from?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, it is obvious that originally the ought to have come from somewhere outside the country, but on those specific trips I wouldn't know precisely, but I would assume that they would have been taken from some DLB for us to have access here in Southern Natal.

MR WILLS: A DLB referred to as being a Dead Letter Box?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Dead Letter Box, yes.

MR WILLS: But what I am trying to extract from you Mr Radebe is that you said that a truck would arrive with weapons and be parked in a particular place.  Where would that truck travel from in order to come to I believe you were in Durban at the time?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I was in Durban.

MR WILLS: Where would that truck come from, which part of South Africa, or part of the subcontinent?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, as I have said, I would assume that it would be somewhere in Johannesburg, because the people I was dealing with, were at that time based in Johannesburg.

MR WILLS: At the time you were dealing with this issue, did you make direct contact, or how did you make contact with the people in order that the weapons would be delivered?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: As I have stated that my first meeting was with Chris Hani, who set this machinery up and later on, I met with Ronnie Kasrils who was also part of the military Headquarters, responsible for this task.
	The actual operation, I would assume that that is how it happened.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Wills is asking Mr Radebe is, this truck comes with a load of firearms and you make the arrangements with the keys, to get it transferred.  Once you received the firearms in Durban, how did you dispose of them, or were you involved personally in the disposal of those firearms, to various SDU's in your region?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes, what happened, as I have said, I had duplicate keys of these cars and those duplicate keys, I handed over to the person who was in charge, which was Mr Sithole here.

CHAIRPERSON: That would go to the local, the person who is going to ultimately use it in his particular SDU?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: If I could just follow up there.  How did you know when the vehicles would be coming, or did you just give the keys to Mr Sithole and then the rest of the detail, he had to deal with?  That is what I am trying to understand.

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Initially there had to be physical contact to establish this properly.  This is why I had this meeting with Chris Hani and later with Ronnie Kasrils, where I was given these keys which I handed over.
	The initial delivery, I knew when it was going to come and then I informed Sithole accordingly.  From that time onwards, when the machinery became smoother, I never was involved in subsequent deliveries.

MR LAX: Okay, thank you.

MR WILLS: And subsequently, I believe it was Dr Phillips who became involved in the day to day organisation of the procurement of those arms, is that correct?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Now I do know.

MR WILLS: Yes, getting on to that point.  There is a policy which I believe exists within Umkhonto weSizwe , and that is the policy of need to know.  Can you just explain that policy in relation to your operations with the procurement of those arms?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: There was a special training that many people who were in Umkhonto weSizwe  used to undergo, which we used to call MCW, Military Combat Work.
	It was basically training in secrecy, how to set up underground structures, how to communicate such that you make sure that the people that are involved in that operation, one section of the operation, does not know what the other is doing, so that we protect the identity of people who are involved in that operation.
	There has to be cut off in terms of contact with other people.  If one has to take this type of operation, even though I was the political leader responsible and accountable for these Self Defence Units, but I would not know precisely what the person in charge, will be doing in terms of the fulfilment of those tasks.  
	It was what one may call, you were to know on a need to know basis and there was a principle that we used to say that ask no questions, and you will be told no lies, which is a reflection of this elaborate system of cut off.

MR WILLS: So, do I gather from your evidence that apart from the persons that you dealt with directly, either further up the line or further down the line, you would have no knowledge of those individuals?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Indeed.

MR WILLS: So you have indicated that you would contact Mr Sithole in regard to an arrival of a truck containing weapons and how would you communicate with him?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I need to explain that Mr Sithole at that time, was the Political Commissar of an MK structure in Southern Natal, so he was identified as a person who need to be the one who is responsible for the operational aspect of the creation of Self Defence Units.
	I instructed him to set up the structure, that is how his involvement comes in.

MR WILLS: Just on a practical level, I am just trying to convey through your evidence, Mr Radebe, to the Committee on how this procurement of arms and how the arms got to Southern Natal.
	This truck would arrive, you would have duplicate keys.  How would you get those keys?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: How would I get the keys?

MR WILLS: Yes, how did you get the keys?