Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 2000-02-14

MR PANDAY: Sorry, I stand to be corrected.  Sorry, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Ngubane, you mentioned Izak Msomi assisted you, do you know a person by the name of Kwazi Mbambo?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, we used to reside at Mr Myene together.

MR PANDAY: Now is Mr Myene and Kawzi Mbambo the same person?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: No, we were just residing at Mr Myene's home, guarding it.

MR PANDAY: Now do you also know a person by the name of Alzina Luthuli?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR PANDAY: Who is she?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: She was the deceased's wife.

MR PANDAY: Okay.  Would it be correct to assume that Alzina knows you, Msomi and Kwazi Mbambo?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, she does.

MR PANDAY: And she'd make no mistake in the identity of you?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: It would depend just how far she is from us.

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: If I had to say to you, or rather put it to you that Alzina has given a statement where she says that on the 1st of January three of you attacked Mbukazi, the deceased, and the three of you were yourself, Msomi and Mbambo.

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I dispute that.  What I know is that the deceased and others who were IFP members, attacked us.

MR PANDAY: Let's leave the deceased and others who attacked you at the moment, I want to know from you if Alzina has to give evidence according to her statement that on the day they were attacked she was in the company of Mbukazi and the three people that attacked Mbukazi was you, Msomi and Mbambo, would she be lying?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could we perhaps first deal with the aspect of whether ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you see her, was she in the company of the deceased on that day? - on that day, the 1st of January.

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: No, I did not.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, could you then put the second ...(intervention)

MR DEHAL: Sorry, could I at this stage just seek the indulgence of the Committee.  There seems clearly to be a typographical error in Exhibit A, paragraph 6.  I've just called my assistant to compare the original instructions given to us, the date 7 January should indeed read 1st January.  I apologise.  Thank you.

MR PANDAY: Mr Ngubane, you say you don't recall seeing Alzina on the 1st of January, is that correct?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: Do you think she was there, or she might have been there?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I did not see her.  I did not see anybody who looked like her, she was not there.

MR PANDAY: Do you have any idea why Alzina will implicate you, Msomi and Mbambo?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I think she's just implicating me because she heard that I stabbed the deceased, but she does not have an information as to what happened.  I think she's just creating this because it was her husband who was killed and also for the fact that she is an IFP member, so she has nothing to gain or lose by implicating me.  Also for the fact that the IFP and ANC were previously in conflict, she would not stand up for an ANC member.

MR PANDAY: Mr Ngubane, tell us once more, why did you stab Mbukazi?  We've heard your statement, but you tell us now what reason did you want to stab Mbukazi for?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I stabbed him because he had attacked me.  He and six other men approached us and I was out at home on the premises.  That was on New Year's day.  I saw them approaching and as I looked closely I recognised them and they started running as well as shooting.  I left whatever I was doing and ran away.  The other people who were in the house also ran out of the house and went down the road.
	As we were running down the road I fell and the deceased then bumped into me and fell.  When he got up he came to me and stabbed me on the back at the left.  We then fought for the knife, which is how I came about to be stabbed on the thumb.  
	Ultimately I managed to wrestle the knife away from him when Izak came to my assistance and Izak then held him and I stabbed him.  I am not sure how many stab wounds I inflicted on him.

MR PANDAY: Mr Ngubane, do you know where's the Umuni area, or the Ultra City in Umuni?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR PANDAY: Yes.  And how far is that from the place you were attacked?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: It's quite a long distance because from where I was attacked you are not able to see that Umuni area.

MR PANDAY: Now where is Umgalala residence?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat that.

MR PANDAY: Where is ...(intervention)

MR DEHAL: Umkababa.

MR PANDAY: Well I could be mistaken, the name on page 10 is spelt Umgalala, it could be Umkababa.

MR DEHAL: I think that's clearly an error, it's Umkababa, because the rest of the papers talk of Umkababa.

MR PANDAY: Okay.

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Umkababa is one of the neighbouring areas.

MR PANDAY: How far is that from where you were attacked?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I think it's more than one kilometre.

MR PANDAY: Alzina who is Mbukazi's girlfriend, has given a statement that they were attacked by three males, that's you, Msomi and Mbambo at the Umkababa resident, or reserve ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: I'm sorry, isn't it that they're coming from - the applicant and his friends coming from Umkababa residence and they were attacked at a school?

MR PANDAY: Sorry, Mr Chairman, that's correct.
	If I may rephrase the question, Mr Ngubane.  Do you know where Power School is?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Please repeat that question.

MR PANDAY: Do you know where Power School is?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Which are is that?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: It's close to the deceased's home.  You pass his home on the way to that school.

MR PANDAY: So you say it's close to the deceased's home, is that correct?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: Now Alzina who is the deceased's girlfriend at the time, or who was the deceased's girlfriend at the time, stated that they were attacked near Power School, or as they were passing Power School.  Now that's the direct opposite from what you say, that you attacked in your area, can you comment on her statement?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I dispute that because what I know is that the deceased was stabbed in our area.  He was not close to his home, he was far from home.

MR PANDAY: Did Alzina give evidence in the trial?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: ...(no English interpretation)

MR PANDAY: Did Alzina give evidence in the trial?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, she did.

MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's the cross-examination.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Ngubane, what is your standard of education?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I went as far as standard seven.

MR MAPOMA: Where were you born?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: At Danganye.

MR MAPOMA: The Danganye area, is it an area under Umkababa?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR MAPOMA: And is that where your home is?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: That's correct.

MR MAPOMA: And where is Mr Myene's home, the place which you say you were keeping guard?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: It is at Danganye.

MR MAPOMA: And where is the deceased's home?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I am not sure of the name of that area, there is sometimes disagreements on what it's called, whether it's part of Danganye or it's part of Ehlanzeni, Because that area is close to a road which apparently is the demarcation between Ehlanzeni and Danganye, so I'm not certain as to whether it falls under Danganye or Ehlanzeni.

MR MAPOMA: Did I hear you well when you were saying that area where the deceased's stayed is known as Ehlanzeni?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, I think so, but I am not a hundred percent sure.

MR MAPOMA: Now I want to get something from you.  Are you aware that for you to be granted amnesty you must tell the truth and the whole truth to this Committee?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, I do know.