Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-03

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman can we proceed with the next one?  The next applicant is Tankiso Koena on page 22 to 28.  It is 741220 5694 08 6.  It is confirmed as being correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Koena, what language would you prefer to use?

TANKISO KOENA: Sotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any objections to taking of the oath?

TANKISO KOENA: (sworn, states)

CHAIRPERSON: Be seated.

MR SHANE: Mr Koena you ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR SHANE: Sorry, Mr Koena you were a member of the Slovo/Tambo sections, Tokoza Self-Defence Unit.  Correct?

TANKISO KOENA: That's correct sir.

MR SHANE: And you were a member of the ANC since when?

TANKISO KOENA: Since 1990.

MR SHANE: A member of the Self-Defence Unit 1990, and you were an ordinary member?

TANKISO KOENA: Yes I was a Self-Defence Unit member in 1990.

MR SHANE: You seek amnesty for the murder of Kraai Mambaso, is that correct?

TANKISO KOENA: That's correct, sir.

MR SHANE: And also for possession of weapons and ammunition without a licence?

TANKISO KOENA: That's correct, sir.

MR SHANE: Kraai Mambaso was murdered in 1993 during October or November.  Is that correct?

TANKISO KOENA: That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE: Explain the circumstances as to how and why he was murdered.

TANKISO KOENA: He was killed in the circle at Khumalo section, because he was an informer.

MR SHANE: An informer for who?

TANKISO KOENA: He was internal stability unit informer.

MR SHANE: That is the internal stability unit of the former SAP?

TANKISO KOENA: That's correct, sir.

MR SHANE: How did you know that he was an informer?

TANKISO KOENA: The deceased Gamso told me that.

MR SHANE: Now when ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Which deceased?

TANKISO KOENA: The name is Gamso.

ADV GCABASHE: His full names are Ivan Khumalo.

TANKISO KOENA: That is correct, it is Ivan Khumalo.

MR SHANE: On this day in 1993, you accompanied Ivan Khumalo and other people, correct?  You were with them?

TANKISO KOENA: That's correct, sir.

MR SHANE: Who were the other people?

TANKISO KOENA: It was Vusi Sithole, and Sifiso of which I don't know his surname.

MR SHANE: Where are these people now?

TANKISO KOENA: They are in gaol, both of them.

MR SHANE: Now what happened regarding the murder of Kraai?

TANKISO KOENA: He was at Ndlapo section, sitting in the yard, and Gamso came to me accompanied by Vusi and Sifiso and they both told us that the person that we are looking for is at Ndlapo section.  And having heard that they said I must guard him so that he should not run away.  It was Gamso who instructed me to do that and I knew that I had to do that because we knew that he had to be killed.  And then he ran away from Ndlapo's initially, in Khumalo Street.  He was standing outside with Beki and he ran towards the circle, and Gamso had produced a firearm.  He ran into some house, and I was peeping through the window, some bedroom window, when I was looking for him inside.  I spotted him inside and I told Gamso that this man is hiding inside one of the bedroom.

MR SHANE: Right, now it is correct that you yourself were not armed, and you yourself did not in fact fire the shots at the deceased.  Is that correct?

TANKISO KOENA: That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE: And you were at all times aware that there was an order to kill the deceased Kraai?  Is that correct?

TANKISO KOENA: Yes I was fully aware, because Gamso was told me that Thabo Sibeko who was our commander had already issued the instruction.  Thabo Sibeko is deceased.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Koena you don't have to approach your mike to speak.  You can just relax and the tape will pick up what you are saying.  Otherwise it just reverberates at the back.

MR SHANE: Now you in fact told Gamso where Kraai was, and if you had not done so he would not have found the deceased in order to kill him.  Is that correct?

TANKISO KOENA: That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE: And when you pointed out the deceased Kraai to Gamso, you knew that he was going to be murdered.  Is that correct?

TANKISO KOENA: That is correct, sir.  I knew that he was going to be killed.

MR SHANE: So that is how you played a role in his killing.  Is that correct?

TANKISO KOENA: That is correct sir.

MR SHANE: And you in fact had a common purpose with Gamso who actually did the shooting, to kill the deceased.  Is that correct?

TANKISO KOENA: That is correct, sir.  I had the same intention.

MR SHANE: Yes, now before Kraai was shot, you knew him from before, he lived with you Tokoza.  Is that correct?

TANKISO KOENA: That is correct, I knew him.

MR SHANE: And before he was shot you were in fact confronted by the deceased's sister.  Is that correct?

TANKISO KOENA: That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE: Who you also knew.

TANKISO KOENA: Yes I knew her as well.

MR SHANE: Will you tell what, what did the deceased's sister say to you, or what did she do?  What did she say?

TANKISO KOENA: The deceased's sister asked me as to why did we shoot him, and we asked her what we normally do with an informer.  And she said the trend is to kill the informer.

MR SHANE: And after that, he was shot, is that correct?

TANKISO KOENA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't follow her question then.  If he wasn't shot when she confronted, by the time she confronted you, then why would she have asked the question?

TANKISO KOENA: She was present at the moment when this incident occurred.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh I see.

MR SHANE: Did this incident occur at the house where the deceased and his family lived?

TANKISO KOENA: No it was not at the deceased's home, but at the Khumalo section circle.  Some circle in that section.

MR SHANE: And his sister happened to be present at that same place?

TANKISO KOENA: I do not understand, are you referring to when we are shooting him?  Please explain your question.

MR SHANE: At the time when the deceased was shot, his sister was present at the same house where he was shot.  Is that correct?

TANKISO KOENA: No she was not there.

MR SHANE: Well explain when did you confront the sister.

TANKISO KOENA: Please repeat your question.

MR SHANE: When did you confront the sister of the deceased?

TANKISO KOENA: We met the deceased's sister before this happened, in the yard.

MR SHANE: And did she know that you were going to, that her brother was going to be killed?

TANKISO KOENA: Yes, she knew because she had already told us what to do, or what is normally done with an informer.

MR SHANE: Are you saying that the sister of the deceased in fact encouraged ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if you can suggest that Mr Shane.  As I read his evidence, she was asking, "Why are you doing this to my brother?"

MR SHANE: That is correct.  And he then, he asked the question, "What do we do with informers?"

CHAIRPERSON: She said the trend was to kill informers.  It certainly doesn't suggest that she encouraged the killing of her own brother.

MR SHANE: Now after she suggests, after she said that informers, police informers are killed, was her brother then killed?

TANKISO KOENA: Yes he was killed thereafter.

MR SHANE: And you, as you've said, you played a major role in his killing although you didn't fire the shots.

TANKISO KOENA: That's correct sir.

MR SHANE: Where is Gamso now?

TANKISO KOENA: He's dead.

MR SHANE: Are you aware that the family of the late Kraai Mambaso is present here today?

TANKISO KOENA: Yes, I'm aware.

MR SHANE: Is there anything that you wish to say to them?

TANKISO KOENA: Yes, I would like to say something to them.

MR SHANE: Proceed.  Say it.

TANKISO KOENA: Thank you.  I would like them to forgive me because that was the situation that was prevailing at that time that led to his death.