Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR DORFLING: At the time when you had the firearm in your possession, just prior to you getting up straight to see what was going on, you didn't know what to expect once you peeped over the parapet.  Or did you know what to expect?

NEO POTSANE: I didn't know what to expect.

MR DORFLING: You therefore didn't know if when you got up straight the people would be retreating or would be attacking.  Is that right?

NEO POTSANE: When I got up straight I had no knowledge of what would be the situation, no when I looked over.

MR DORFLING: When did you take your decision to fire the shot, when you were still on your haunches hiding behind the parapet wall or only after you got up?

NEO POTSANE: Can you repeat your question please?

MR DORFLING: When did you take the decision to fire a shot into the crowd, while still on your haunches hiding behind the parapet wall or only after you got up?

NEO POTSANE: After I got up and looked.

MR DORFLING: Can we just have clarity as to exactly what you saw sir?

NEO POTSANE: I saw a group of men surging forward, running with their weapons ready.

MR DORFLING: You've already - I think you've already clarified that you didn't see any firearms, you saw traditional weapons?

NEO POTSANE: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: And if you say the weapons were ready, what do you mean by that?

NEO POTSANE: They were not held down, they were held at the ready position.

MR DORFLING: You indicate with your two fists above the shoulders next to the ears.  Is that what you're saying?

NEO POTSANE: No.

MR DORFLING: What kind of traditional weapons are we talking of, is it knobkirries, assagi's, spears, shields, those kind of weapons?

NEO POTSANE: Well any form of traditional weapon.  Normally when you're going to attack you raise it to the air.

MR DORFLING: No, I'm asking you what weapons you saw, what traditional weapons you saw?

NEO POTSANE: I saw assagi's, knobkirries and pangas - all, it was just an assortment of weapons.

MR DORFLING: Were these people moving forward up straight or were they in a crouched position?

NEO POTSANE: I would say - I mainly saw people who were running and they were kind of straight.

MR DORFLING: If a witness were to give evidence to this committee that this crowd moving forward was in a crouched position, what would your comment be to that?

NEO POTSANE: I would not disagree.

MR DORFLING: You would not disagree?

MR LAX: Just repeat the yes, it wasn't recorded.

NEO POTSANE: That is his question was that if a witness would come forward and say these people were crouched, I said I would not disagree.

MR DORFLING: Can I just understand your evidence.  Are you saying that the portion of the crowd that you noticed or observed was moving forward standing up straight but you cannot exclude the possibility that some other marchers might have been moving foward in a crouched position.  Is that your evidence?

NEO POTSANE: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: From the position where you stood, you could observe where the front, the middle or the back of the crowd was.  Is that correct?

NEO POTSANE: No.

MR DORFLING: Does that mean you fired a shot into the middle of the crowd of marchers?

NEO POTSANE: I wouldn't know.

MR DORFLING: But sir if you were firing at the front you would have observed that that is the front of the crowd, isn't it?

NEO POTSANE: The point I'm trying to make is I wouldn't know because I think I explained earlier on that as I stood up I wouldn't know whether some of the marchers had already gone past the balcon or - it was the (indistinct) so I wouldn't know.

MR DORFLING: You couldn't see the front of the crowd when you got up.  Is that correct.

NEO POTSANE: Excuse me?

MR DORFLING: You couldn't see the front of the crowd when you got up?

NEO POTSANE: All I'm trying to say to this committe is that I would not know whether that was the front of the crowd or the middle of the crowd because the way that building is structured, if say perhaps other part of the crowd had already passed under the balcon then I wouldn't know if there are people underneath or what.  I think that's what I'm trying to tell this committee.

MR DORFLING: Is it your evidence that you couldn't see a clear piece of tarmac ahead of the 50 to 100 people that you saw moving forward.  There were even people in front of them as well.  Is that your evidence?

NEO POTSANE: When I stand up from that position, because of that balcon (indistinct) that is actually covering part of the pavement and you are actually very far from it at the position where you are, it's a little bit in front there so part of the tar road it stayed concealed, you know the beginning part of it.

MR DORFLING: Do I understand your evidence correctly that you can only see, from where you're standing, more towards the westerly side of King George Street.  One can't see the full width of the street, one can see more toward the western side or the western half of the street.  Is that your evidence?

NEO POTSANE: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: And were your shots also, or I take it then that your shots were also directed in that direction.  Is that correct?

NEO POTSANE: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: Were you shooting more towards the Plein Street side of the block or more towards the De Villiers Street side of the block or more or less straight ahead of you?

NEO POTSANE: De Villiers Street.

MR DORFLING: Do you know where the Woven Chemist was situated at that time Mr Potsane?

NEO POTSANE: To be fair to this committee I would not be able to say which shop was situated where at the time, but I knew there was a pharmacy there.

MR DORFLING: And does the name of the business Jabo's Bakery perhaps ring a bell, can you perhaps recall where that was situation?

NEO POTSANE: Yes, I knew there was Jabo's Bakery along the street, King George Street.

MR DORFLING: Were your shots, with reference to Jabo's Bakery, where were your shots aimed at in relation to Jabo's Baker, to the left of it, to the right of it or more or less in line with Jabo's Bakery?

NEO POTSANE: If the committe will allow me to clarify.  Jabo's Bakery, where is it positioned on the straight like so that I could be able to make it clear how - I don't know where Jabo's Baker was, whether it was in the middle or more to the left or at the corner or - I just need the committee around me to be clarified on that aspect.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair I'm not going to persue it if the witness can't identify where exactly it was located.

CHAIRPERSON: I want you to please help me.  There's no doubt about the fact that he shot and you're asking him minor details about the position in the road and so on.  How does it affect the matter?

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair no, I'm not trying to get minor detail, I'm trying to get the general line of fire to have been directed towards the north west corner of the block.

CHAIRPERSON: Well he's given you an idea that it was towards De Villiers Street.  Now let's move on.

MR DORFLING: Mr Potsane the obejctors for whom I appear, there are nine of them altogether will say that there was, at the time when shots were being fired at them from the ANC security guards, that there was no justification for anybody shooting at them.  Would you like to comment on that?

NEO POTSANE: I do not know your objectors and I cannot disagree or agree.

MR DORFLING: I know but the questions actually wider than that.  Actually those objectors would, if they were called to come and give evidence in front of this committee, they will say that there was no reason to shoot at anybody amongst the crowd, there was no justification for that happening from the ANC guards.

NEO POTSANE: ... (indistinct) I had justification.

MR DORFLING: Are you not conceding the possibility that there might not have been an attack?

NEO POTSANE: Excuse me?