Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-23

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you have already told the Committee that you don't know what happened inside.  Did you after the incident happened, definitely was a report to you, do you know who shot and killed Mr de Sousa and did he tell you what was the reason for that?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes that is true, Small Baby gave me a report back that he had shot a person inside but I did not see any need for me to ask him as to why he shot because I thought that he did it in the line of duty or in accordance with instructions issued to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Issued to him by who?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: These were my instructions that should he approach or come across any problem he had to act as it deemed fit.

CHAIRPERSON: What time did this operation occur?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: It was in the afternoon just before the shop closed but I'm not sure as to the exact time but it was late afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it after 6 o'clock or before 7 o'clock?  Can you approximate the time?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: It was quite dark.  I do not know the time, I'm not sure but it was dark.

CHAIRPERSON: So would you say that it was in the early evening and not in the afternoon?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes that could be quite correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo, you may proceed.

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Maseko, is there anything you want to add to your testimony?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Besides having to explain that from there, we took the car from the premises, we drove a distance of about plus minus two kilometres and we deserted the car because we had a getaway car waiting for us there and we drove off in our getaway car and we went back to where we came from.

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Now what did you do with the money?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I had to report to my commander and my commander at the time Msiki who was in Botswana at that time but the amount was very small for me to take it to Botswana so we used it for our transport and in order for us to be able to survive and to make ends meet.  I did not take it to Botswana because the amount was very small but I did report it to my commander that we got a certain amount of money.

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: That's all Madam Chair and the Honourable Members, at this stage thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.  Mr Prior do you have any questions to put to Mr Maseko?

ADV PRIOR: Yes thank you, Madam Chair.
	Being the commander of that particular repossession unit, why did you remain outside, that is outside the store while the other members went in?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: As I have already explained that I divided my unit into three groups, so my duties specifically was to be part of the cut out group so that we can keep a watchful eye whilst the others were doing whatever they had to do, so it was my duty to stand outside.  The other ones were designated to get into the house and launch the attack and retrieve the money.  Each and every one of us had his specific or designated duty.

ADV PRIOR: Was your instructions to your unit ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: Sorry Mr Prior, I'm not sure that I had an answer to your question.  I thought the question was why did you - because you gave all the instructions, am I understanding correct?  You planned it?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Now the question was, why did you place yourself in the cut away group and not in the assault group or the support group?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I have already explained that when other members are in the cut out group and when they see a person approaching or a threat they get scared and I believed that I had the temerity to stand there and I was brave enough to stand outside whilst the others were doing whatever they had to do inside because the other ones would get scared, that's why I chose myself as part of the cut out group.

MR MALAN: You refer in your application to other similar actions, this is not the only one, you have other applications for amnesty also and I think you say you are waiting for eleven of them still for decisions.  Did you always organise such repossession actions or lack of a better concept, in the three groups approach?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Were you always part of the cut away group, you yourself?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Not always.

MR MALAN: Now the question is why did you decide on this occasion to be part of the cut away group and not of the assault group or the support group?  Was there a reason?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes I did explain, I'm going to explain for the third time.  The reason was that in the previous occasions, members of the cut out group would panic and they would scare the ones who were inside but having gathered this experience in the past occasions, I decided to involve myself in the cut out group in this particular occasion.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Prior.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Madam Chair.
	I notice from your affidavit if we may to refer to it as Exhibit A or marked A, that not only did you obtain cash, that you also obtained cigarettes from the store which you say in paragraph 17, which you sold to raise money.  I want to know is, what quantity of cigarettes did you remove from the shop?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Two boxes, two very big boxes.

ADV PRIOR: Well, maybe asked a different way, how much money did you fetch for the cigarettes?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I do not remember but the money all in all came to a sum total of R6000, that is including the cash that we received as well as the money from the sale of the cigarettes.

ADV PRIOR: Where did you sell the cigarettes?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: We would sell them in the streets.

ADV PRIOR: Did any of your unit take cigarettes for their own use?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Because we had already counted the money as to how much it would come to, we never took anything for ourselves.

ADV PRIOR: Yes but the sale of the cigarettes, as I understand your evidence, would have taken some time to get rid of.  Two big boxes of cigarettes.  There must have been, I don't know what quantity but certainly a number of cartons, hundreds of cigarettes you'd have to sell, is that correct?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Do you mean that we consumed the cigarettes or we smoked them because we couldn't sell them or what are you referring to?

ADV PRIOR: No, I don't understand how you hear my question like that, but let me repeat my question.  On your evidence, there was a substantial quantity of cigarettes which you said you sold on the street.  To my mind, did that take one day to sell or did it take a number of days to sell in order to obtain the money?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I don't recall as to how many days it took us because I delegated this duty to one of the foot soldiers and he brought the money as I expected it.  There was nothing short, so I cannot say that he took them for himself.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose Advocate Prior?
	Do you know how long it took the person you delegated to sell the two big boxes of cigarettes?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I don't know how many days it took.

CHAIRPERSON: When were you able to count the money that you collected from the sale of the cigarettes as well as the ones that had been repossessed from the shop?  Was it after a few hours after the operation had been conducted or was it after a few days after you had conducted that operation?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: It was a few days after we had conducted the operation.  Maybe I can explain this further.  After the operation we went to the ...[indistinct] and we dispersed because we were not staying all at the same place, we were scattered and I gave the cigarettes to the foot soldiers.  He came back on the weekend to bring the money, I don't know how many days he took to sell them but he came on a weekend to bring the money.