Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-08-30

WITNESS:   It was the State Pathologist's report that was sent to us which determined the cause of death, because they said he had hanged himself, but we never got the death certificate. Let's just go back to your statement.  What was happening in the community at that time, the Lamontville community?   ---   I think it was during the era of Msisi Duba, so there was a lot of violence.

DR MAGWAZA: Had they ever come to you to harass you at your place?

WITNESS:   It was the first time that the soldiers came.  The soldiers came the first time, but the second time it was the police who came.  They assaulted us.  They told us to get into the house.

DR MAGWAZA: What about this white man who came to your place to fetch you?  Did you ever get to know him or his identity?

WITNESS:   No, I never knew him, but I could identify him if I could see him.  Some of them we are still having problems. Even today we are having clashes.  When I went to Smith Street they told me that my telephone was going to be cut.  They know that even today I have come before this Commission to testify, but I don't know their names.

DR MAGWAZA: Let's just go back a bit.  How do they know that you are here?

WITNESS:   I don't know, but I know that they do know, because they phoned me.  They phoned me in the morning at 5 o'clock.

DR MAGWAZA: What did they say to you?

WITNESS:   They asked me as to what time I was going to arrive here.  I told them that I was not told as to when to come to the Commission, and I asked whoever was talking as to who he was, and he did not tell me.  He did not want to disclose this information.

DR MAGWAZA: This is quite a problem.  It poses a problem, because usually that information is kept by us and known only by us.

WITNESS:   I think it's my relatives who told them as to the fact that I will be here today. You know where these people are, and who they are?  ---   Yes, we do meet along the way.  I do see them.

DR MAGWAZA: I think it will help us if you could shed some light and tell us as to who these people are.  Where do you see them?

WITNESS:   I do have a house in Umlazi, and at once I saw one of them and he asked me as to whether I was staying there.  I said yes, and I asked him as to where he was working.  He said he was serving summons.  I don't know his name.  The other one I know his name.  He is very close to me, he is staying nearby my place.

DR MAGWAZA: Now, if you know them I think you will submit the names to us, but we will not force you to submit such names.  Was there any case?

WITNESS:   Yes, there was a case, but just when the case began Attorney Mxenge was killed.

DR MAGWAZA: I saw in your statement that you've made mention of Skweyiya.  What happened?

WITNESS:   That was the end of the case.

DR MAGWAZA: Was the case ever finalised?

WITNESS:   No, they kept on postponing the case, and we were never told as to whether the matter was finalised or not.

DR MAGWAZA: Who was handling the matter, or investigating the case?

WITNESS:   The case ended up with Mrs Mxenge.

DR MAGWAZA: Tell us about Skweyiya, because Skweyiya is still alive.

WITNESS:   Skweyiya never got to finalise the matter, and Skweyiya was working together with Mxenge, but the matter was never finalised and we were never notified.

DR MAGWAZA: This is one of the most painful stories, and it's a very common occurrence.  We know that these things have happened before, and people were alleged to have killed themselves or hung themselves in detention.

WITNESS:   I know

DR MAGWAZA: that my brother did not kill himself, because there is a  friend of his who was an MK soldier, but he is in Johannesburg now.  This friend was taken out of detention on that particular day, and they were fighting with him, and at that time he said he knew that he was going to be killed.  He went into prison, but I don't know what happened because he ended up being an MK soldier.

DR MAGWAZA: Do you know his name?

WITNESS:   No, I have forgotten his name.

DR MAGWAZA: What I wanted to say to you is that the main objective of this Commission, as well as the Committee of Reparation and Rehabilitation, is to clear people's names.  Many people who died during detention it was alleged that they had committed suicide, but today we want to put the issues straight and clear.  We want this Commission to show that these people had been killed, and we want to know the reasons for their deaths.  Are there any expectations that you have of this Commission?

WITNESS:  My main request is that my place - the place at which I am staying now is not very safe, an I feel my life is at stake because this is an ongoing cycle.  Now I feel that I am not protected, my life is not safe.

DR MAGWAZA: In your statement you said you stay in Lamontville, but now you have just said you stay in Umlazi.

WITNESS:   I am staying in Umlazi.

DR MAGWAZA: Do you not feel safe in Umlazi?  We do hear your request, but it's not a very easy one.  But that is not up to us to decide.  We take these requests and pass the recommendations over to people with authority.  We shall take your request and pass it forward.  We thank you very much.

DR MAGWAZA:  I did not hear your request when you said you do not feel safe.  What do you want?  Is it protection under the Protection Unit, or you want some help?  What is it specifically that you want?

WITNESS:   I want to be protected, so that even if I want to change places I may be able to get a place easily.

DR RANDERA: Can you hear me?

WITNESS:   Yes.

DR RANDERA: I just want to clarify something from your statement.  You say that you were all arrested, and then you and Fo were released, and at the time of your release you asked to see Thami, and then he died a few months later.  Is that right?

WITNESS:   Right.

DR RANDERA: So he didn't - it wasn't over the next few days that he died, he died a few months later after, so he was in custody all that time?

WITNESS:   He died after a few days.

DR RANDERA: After a few days.  Because your statement says a few months.

WITNESS:   No, after a few days.

DR RANDERA: At the time that you saw him ... (inaudible) ... did he show any signs of ... (inaudible) ... was his face swollen or anything of that sort?

WITNESS:   I saw his corpse after he had died.  I never saw him alive thereafter.  I just saw his corpse, and he had this laceration like a burn wound on the neck.

DR RANDERA: (Inaudible - speaker's microphone not operating)

WITNESS:   We were not allowed to see him.

DR RANDERA: (Inaudible)

WITNESS:   He was always very happy and he loved music.  He always wanted to socialise with peaceful people, and he was quite a decent person.

DR RANDERA: (Inaudible)

WITNESS:   I do not believe that my brother killed himself. (Inaudible)   ---   It is my belief that he was

DR RANDERA: killed by the police because he did not want to answer some of the questions that the police were asking him. They even got cassettes and some evidence, but he never answered their questions, and they assaulted him, but he nevertheless refused to answer their questions.  he was assaulted from the evening up until the following day.  When I was released he was still being assaulted, but he never answered their questions.

DR RANDERA: (Inaudible)

WITNESS:   I don't think so.

DR RANDERA: Mr Mthetwa, I want you to clarify me on this aspect.  You said you don't feel safe, and once more you say you know the people who did this and who make you feel unsafe.  Now I want to ask this question.  Are there any steps that you have taken to try and speak to them about this situation, or try to protect yourself from them, because you know them?

WITNESS:   I don't know, because we have not yet confronted each other.  I spoke to only one, who asked me as to when I have arrived.

DR RANDERA: Did you ever report the matter to the police?