Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-19

MS POSWA: So you, was it on a trip?  I's like you to just expansiate.  Were you going there on a trip specifically to recruit Ndaba or did you live in Swaziland?  How exactly did you meet him and recruit him?

CHAIRPERSON: How did it come about?

MS POSWA: Yes.

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, my task was the gathering of intelligence with regard to MK and as such I was responsible for all information with regard to MK activities in Swaziland and all other intelligence which indicated to activities in Natal.  I was responsible for the gathering of this intelligence and from that task and in such informers were recruited in Natal and in Swaziland and also in Mozambique.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.  You were asked about this man here, Ndaba, how did it come about?

H J P BOTHA: That's correct Chairperson, I'd just like to sketch the background and then I will explain.
As such from time to time I travelled to Swaziland.  The purpose of debriefing existing informers and to identify any potential recruit, or identify any potential informers.

MS POSWA: What do you mean?  How would you identify such an informer?

H J P BOTHA: Because of his position or the information which he had available.

MS POSWA: So you went ahead and approached Mr Ndaba?

H J P BOTHA: That's correct.  It was a direct approach.

CHAIRPERSON: What made you pick on him?

H J P BOTHA: Simply Chairperson, at that stage Swaziland with regard to the Natal machinery, was in uproar or chaos because of the successes of the Security Branch in Port Natal.  There were accusations in the ANC of infiltrations by informants and this led to a witch hunt.  People were withdrawn from Swaziland and taken back to Lusaka.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about a witch hunt amongst the ANC?

H J P BOTHA: That's correct Chairperson.  This established a fear psychosis which facilitated our recruitment of informers and when such a person was directly approached, he basically had two choices.  Firstly he could report such an approach to Lusaka or his immediate Commander in Swaziland.  Our information was that if he would do it in such a manner it would be accompanied by a measure of suspicion and consequently he's placed under a search light.

MS POSWA: Yes, can you go on to the other option?

H J P BOTHA: Secondly, he simply remains quiet and does not tell anybody anything.

MS POSWA: So you mean to tell me that this was under duress in fact, that Ndaba had no choice but to agree to be an informer, when you approached him in that manner?

H J P BOTHA: Especially if the recruitment was done in Swaziland, yes.

MS POSWA: Can you just tell us the date of the recruitment.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear that.

MS POSWA: The date of the recruitment.  When was he recruited, what date?

H J P BOTHA: It was during 1988, the exact date I cannot recall.

MR LAX: Sorry, if I might interpose.  Are you saying it was in the first half of 1988?

H J P BOTHA: ...(no interpretation)

MR LAX: Sorry, please continue.  Sorry your microphone, please.

MS POSWA: So you say that he was under duress.  He had two choices, either to report the matter and face suspicion by the ANC or to remain silent and then fact your anger, your brunt?

H J P BOTHA: The first one is correct,

MS POSWA: And what was, can you remind me of the second one?  Can you remind me what the second option he had?

H J P BOTHA: The second choice was for him to simply cooperate with us when he kept quiet.

MS POSWA: Okay, to cooperate with you by keeping quiet.  So what was Mr Ndaba's informer number?  When you had informers, how did you identify them?  How did you identify, what was your code name for your informers?

H J P BOTHA: They had received registered numbers.

MS POSWA: Yes, what was the registered number, can you give this to us please?

H J P BOTHA: I cannot recall the numbers of all my informants, I handled many of them.

MS POSWA: Mr Botha, you have made serious allegations here that Mr Ndaba is an informer.  I think you appreciate that, don't you?

H J P BOTHA: Correct.

MS POSWA: Is it not proper that having made these allegations, you show us proof.

H J P BOTHA: Are you asking for proof of his registration as an informant?

MS POSWA: Yes, please.

H J P BOTHA: All records of informants in the South African Police Security Branch were destroyed.  So I cannot put any file before you.

MS POSWA: So how are we to believe you if there is no proof whatsoever?

H J P BOTHA: For the same reason as you don't have to believe me.

MS POSWA: Your protection Mr Chairman, please.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the problem?  He says that he can't give you a number.

MS POSWA: I'm saying that you cannot raise such a serious allegation without proof.  He should provide us with some proof.

CHAIRPERSON: That'll be argument.  You can make use of that as an argument.

MS POSWA: But I would request Your Honour, to advise, Mr Chairman, to advise the applicant not to be recalcitrant in his replies.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is the recalcitrance?

MS POSWA: He stated, when I asked him why he cannot tell me, he cannot prove it, he says how does he expect me to believe him, his response was the same way in which he doesn't expect me to believe him.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now, let's just cut the words out.  He says that the records have been destroyed so he does not know the registration number and he can't take it any further on that point.

MS POSWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now, let's just carry on from there.  You may maintain strenuously that he was not an informer but that will be your of the case.

MS POSWA: Mr Chairman, I was just asking for protection with his attitude.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MS POSWA: If I just go back again to the line of command.  Was Mr Taylor, or Gen Steyn your direct superior in the askari operation?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, if I may explain, with my earlier evidence which I rendered a complete draft was given about the security branch specifically Port Natal and the other two provinces which joined up when it became Natal and our line of command I will repeat it, Gen Steyn in 1990, was then the Commander of Security for the whole province of Natal.  His office was at C R Swart Square in Durban.

MS POSWA: Mr Chairman, may I just interject to save time?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS POSWA: Right through the applicant's, just so that he understands where I'm coming from, right throughout he seems to be reporting directly to Mr Steyn.  Now I would like him to explain how that came about.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright if you put your questions that way.  I think you have not, you want to clear up just precisely how it is that he reported to Steyn when the impression was created that his superior was Taylor?

MS POSWA: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Just clear that up, I mean, Taylor was your immediate superior and from the evidence you have given, most of your reporting was done to Steyn.

H J P BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was that?

H J P BOTHA: For the simple reason, Chairperson, Taylor worked from Camperdown with the askaris and in the rank structure of the South African Police, he was senior in rank and within the same component, the component of terrorism, I was responsible for the intelligence leg and Taylor was responsible for the askari leg.  With regard to the intelligence, I reported to Taylor, but if it was any other information I would report to Gen Steyn.  It was not a foreign situation, it was a norm.

CHAIRPERSON: So now, just for my own clarification, does it mean that on matters of intelligence you did report to Taylor?

H J P BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson, and to Steyn.

CHAIRPERSON: And to Steyn?

H J P BOTHA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any protocol about it that certain matters only could be reported to Taylor and other matters could only be reported to Steyn?