Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-19

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: That's right.

MR STEENKAMP: You may continue.

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: I was attending to his pledge to me that he wanted to borrow some money for the weekend and all of a sudden I just heard people screaming in the front of the shop.  At the same time I heard one gunshot going off.  We both quickly ran to the door which is from the bakery side onto the supermarket ...[intervention]

MR STEENKAMP: Sorry to interrupt again.  Can you maybe speak a bit slower so that the translators can get through?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: Okay, sorry.  And I saw some men.  One which was carrying an R, it looked like an R4, an AK47 and he had a briefcase in the other arm at the same time.

MR STEENKAMP: Is it possible for you to identify this person here today, is that person here today?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: Yes, he's here.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you please identify that person?  Is it possible?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: His name is Bhani.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you point him out?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: Yes, the first one on my left sitting down.

MR STEENKAMP: Can that person just stand up please?
APPLICANT STANDS UP

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: That's him.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, you said his name was what?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: Bhani.

MR STEENKAMP: And you ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Could you please tell us your name for the record?   The person who was sitting in the front row of the audience who was identified has now come up to put his name on record.  Please give us your full name.

MR BHANI: I'm Mangalisekile Bhani.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  That is the first applicant.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr de Castro, you were saying this person was carrying a bag or can you describe this container?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: He was carrying this briefcase, a black briefcase and at the same time he was handling a firearm, which I presume was an AK47 or an R4 or whatever.  It was very long.

MR STEENKAMP: You may continue.

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: But you know, I got into such a state of shock you know, things were happening so fast.  Then I just saw some people standing against some our fruit and veg that we had stacked behind the tills.  Behind our cashier's tills we had some apples and tomatoes stacked up to about, just a bit higher than a person's height and I just saw, I saw Mr Giovani, he's sitting over there.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you know his full names Sir, and is he related to you?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: He's related to my brother.  His names is Giovani Kleynhans(?).  He was standing against the boxes with his arms up in the air and I saw his late father, Mr Kleynhans and I saw his brother-in-law, Mr Sparkham, all with their arms in the air.  And they were being ...[indistinct] because they were like pushing themselves into a flat, into a piece of paper against those boxes you know.
	And this chappie that was with me, Poelie, he got into a state and he started shouting and then they started shooting at us to the back of the bakery.  The shots were so much that we didn't have an option, we had to run out of the shop on the back door.
	While we were trying to get out of the shop we had to climb a high wall on the back of the shop, then we just heard shots going off and I quickly ran for help and when I came back I just saw everybody lying down and killed and injured and ...

MR STEENKAMP: Mr de Castro, can you give an indication of how many people were in your shop at the stage of this incident?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: At that stage, when I got back into the shop, there was five people killed, which was my wife, Mr Kleynhans senior, Mr Sparkham and two employees of Telkom which were doing shopping at that time at the supermarket.  I've got no idea what their names are, I've forgotten.  And I found my brother, John, he was injured.  He had been shot several times on his leg and Susan and Henk Viljoen.  They were apparently on their way out of the supermarket and they pushed back into the supermarket and they were shot just like that you know.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, as far as you can remember when these people were shot, the victims, where were they, were they standing up, were they running away or where were they?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: Excuse me?  Can you repeat?

MR STEENKAMP: When the victims were shot, people were shot, do you know where they were?  Were they standing, were they running away, were they hiding, where were they?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: No, when I got back into the shop they had been shot just there where they were, or when I last saw them alive with their hands in the air, they had been shot on that same place.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr de Castro, can you give any explanation why your shop or your supermarket was attacked at that specific time and place?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: I don't for a second believe this was politically, I think this was done for the purpose of getting money or financial gains for their own gain, because if you want to create havoc under a community you choose the busiest time when that place or business or whatever is frequented by a large amount of customers.

MR STEENKAMP: And was this such a time?  Can you elaborate on that?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: Yes, we had been - from round about that same day, on the Saturday of the 3rd of July, we had been busy from round about 8 o'clock up until about seven in the evening and our main business was about 90% black.  And that was the end of the month as well, it's when everybody gets paid and that is the busiest time of the month.
	We usually used to close, on a Saturday evening we usually close five to nine, ten to nine but that day we were unfortunately still open because some of my brother's family which were present there, were waiting for him to go home because they were going to have a braai and that's why that specific day there was so much people, or that time there was so much people in the shop.  At that time normally there would only be myself and my brother to close the business and there would be nobody else at the shop at that specific time.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr de Castro, do you know how much money you had in the shop at that stage?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: Yes, I do.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you tell the Committee?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: Plus minus R200 000.

MR STEENKAMP: And where was this money kept?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: The money was kept on the, some on the safe and some under the tills.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you know if any person in your shop was armed?  Do you normally carry any firearms?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: At that stage I didn't even have a licence for a gun, nor did my brother.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr de Castro, you heard the evidence of some of the applicants, that apparently you were the Chairperson of the AWB, or at least you belonged to the AWB.  Did anybody, including yourself, ever belong to any right-wing organisations, as far as you are aware of?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: At no stage did I belong to any political organisation.  That is the last thing I would ever do as a businessman.  That would be very detrimental to my business.  So I never got involved in politics and that's proven, that's why we had so much support from the black community.  I mean the black wouldn't have bought from Wesselsbron Supermarket if I was an AWB or involved with the AWB.

MR STEENKAMP: That was my next question.  Can you describe just briefly, what was your relationship with the local community there?  Did you have any problems previously and how long had you had this shop before this incident?

PEDRO IGNACIO DE CASTRO: By then I'd had the shop for six years and we never had any problems whatsoever in that business.

MR STEENKAMP: I know this is maybe a difficult question, but as far as you know, did any AWB members ever visit your shop, or people that looked like AWB supporters, as far as you know?