Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-09

MR MASUPA: I will never forgive Mr Ndlovu.  If it were possible for him to raise my dead sister, I would forgive him, but I am not in a position to forgive him now.  I am not referred to as - people don't refer to me with my name, they call me a burnt person and I don't want to pretend that I will forgive him.  God please forgive me, I don't have forgiveness in my heart.  We are here to speak the truth, to reconcile, but I am sorry, I cannot.

MR BLACK: Did you at that time, Mr Masupa, regard the actions of Mr Ndlovu and his friends as acts carried out by comrades?  Is that what you expected comrades to do, let's put it that way?

MR MASUPA: No Sir.  I never expected the comrades to burn the house.  Comrades are fighting for truth and justice.

MR BLACK: Just to clarify one little issue.  You were asked about certain political activities that took place in the township, were you working during say the year of 1987?

MR MASUPA: Yes, I was working.

MR BLACK: Were you working on a full time basis?

MR MASUPA: Yes, I used to go to work at seven and knock off at four.

MR BLACK: Were you in any way involved in any political activities in the sense of ...

MR MASUPA: No, Sir, I was not involved in any political activities.

MR BLACK: Okay I have nothing further to add, thank you Mr
Chairman.

MR BLACK: .

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Masupa, I will only ask you one question pursuant to what has been led by Mr Black.  To your
knowledge did the comrades not burn down houses of people who were perceived to be informers in your area?

MR MASUPA: I don't remember of such an incident.  That -our house was the first to be burnt, that is according to my knowledge.

MR CURRIN: Just two questions for clarification.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, may I - before, there was one question I omitted to put to the witness.

JUDGE WILSON: You may go on.

MR BLACK: Thank you.  Mr Masupa, do you know whether the comrades in that area that you knew, approved of the fact that your house had been burnt down?

MR MASUPA: No Sir.

MR BLACK: Why do you say that?

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Black, you are asking whether he knows whether they approved.  He said well, I don't know, so I presume the answer would mean he doesn't know whether they approved or disapproved.

MR BLACK: Mr Masupa, do you know whether the comrades in that area said that it was the right thing to do, did they approve of the burning of your house or not?  Did they approve of it or did they not approve of it?

MR MASUPA: No, they didn't approve it.  Because even when we were at the hospital, the comrades came to visit us.  Aubrey and them came to visit us at the hospital.

MR BLACK: Yes, but when they came to visit you did they say that it was the right thing or the wrong thing that was
done?

MR MASUPA: They were telling us about the thugs that attacked us in the house.  They told us how they arrested some of them, they got hold of them all.  After we were
burnt in the house, the comrades went out searching for them and they found them.

MR BLACK: Yes, so are you saying that it was made clear to you by comrades there that they did not approve of this act?

MR MASUPA: Yes, they were totally against the burning of our house.  They came to see us at the hospital.

MR BLACK: Yes, thank you.

MR BLACK: .

SISI KHAMPEPE: When you say comrades Mr Masupa, you are referring to Aubrey and who else?

MR MASUPA: I won't be in a position to give names.  I know Aubrey for a fact that he was their leader because he used to come at my home and they would go away with Mantha and while we were at the hospital, they came in large numbers.  Some of them I do not know, but every time he was introducing them as comrades.  Some of them were new to me, it was my first time to see them.  But I knew him for a fact that he had been to my home a few times.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were these comrades also scholars?  Did they also attend the same school as Mantha?

MR MASUPA: That is my understanding.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you know Aubrey's other name?

MR MASUPA: No, that is the only name I know, Aubrey.

JUDGE WILSON: Does Aubrey still live in the district?

MR MASUPA: Yes Sir, he is still around.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you know where he lives?

MR MASUPA: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: So you would have no difficulty in pointing Aubrey out and telling someone where they can find him?

MR MASUPA: I won't have problems Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Now, were there different groups of comrades
as far as you were concerned or was there just one group of comrades?

MR MASUPA: It is just one group of comrades, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: And Aubrey is the leader?

MR MASUPA: That is correct, he was the leader of that group.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How did you know that Aubrey was the leader of the comrades, was this information volunteered by Mantha?

MR MASUPA: Yes, my sister Mantha told me that Aubrey was their leader.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was Hendrik also a comrade?

MR MASUPA: No, he wasn't a comrade.

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, once again, may I just place on record.  For the sake of the Committee and should we try and trace - I am informed that Aubrey that has been referred to is a member of the Civic Association in Daveyton at the moment, so we will try and get hold of him.

MR CURRIN: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Chairman, just two questions for clarification.  I would like to reserve my cross-examination for later if necessary.  The one is you mentioned following a leading question that this incident happened on the 2nd of July, was it not the 2nd of June, just for clarification, just for record purposes?  Right at the beginning you said the 2nd of July and he agreed it was the 2nd of July, was it not the 2nd of June?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

JUDGE WILSON: ;	The indictment that we have been given a copy
of, says the 2nd of July.

MR CURRIN: Okay.  Our record says the 2nd of June, but it must be our mistake and I am glad that that has been
clarified, thank you.  The other question, just for clarification with regard to the doors, you said the front door which is in the sitting room and the dining room, was locked.  Where was the key?

MR MASUPA: The key was - it was a bundle of keys, some of the keys were for the coal box and one person in the house must have gone to fetch the coal from outside and he didn't put the key back.

MR CURRIN: So the door was locked and the key was not in the door, is that what you are saying?

MR MASUPA: That is correct.

MR CURRIN: The - if the key had been in the door and if it had been possible to open that door, looking at the plan of the house, I assume it would have been very easy for every one in the bedrooms to go out through the front door, is that correct?

MR MASUPA: That is correct.

MR CURRIN: I have no further questions for clarification.

MR CURRIN: .

JUDGE WILSON: I have a few questions I would like to ask you.  Do you know Johannes Sitoga?

MR MASUPA: I know him.

JUDGE WILSON: How do you know him or from where do you know him?

MR MASUPA: His mother stays opposite our house.

JUDGE WILSON: And does he live with his mother?

MR MASUPA: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Was he a scholar?

MR MASUPA: Yes, he was schooling.

JUDGE WILSON: Was he a friend of Mantha's or any of your other relations?

MR MASUPA: No, he wasn't a friend to Mantha.

JUDGE WILSON: The next one is Lazarus Matsomai

MR MASUPA: I know him.

JUDGE WILSON: Where do you know him from?

MR MASUPA: He once came home with Hendrik.  They were together at school.

JUDGE WILSON: Did they appear to be friendly?

MR MASUPA: Yes, they are still friends even today because he spends some of his nights at home.

JUDGE WILSON: Phineas, well you've told us about Phineas, Vusi, Absalom Gobela, do you know him?

MR MASUPA: I know him, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Where from?

MR MASUPA: He was in the same street with Phineas Ndlovu, but a little bit further.

JUDGE WILSON: And was he schooling?

MR MASUPA: No, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Patrick Mahlangu?

MR MASUPA: I know him.