Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-18

MR STEENKAMP: Can you tell the Committee, were all the people, all your members of this specific attack, were everybody arrested and prosecuted for this incident, or not?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: It's not all of them who were arrested.

MR STEENKAMP: Who was not arrested, can you give us their names?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Dennis Sibande, Sebinzile, who was called Suko at the time, two of them.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you know why they were not arrested?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: I don't know.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, what was the policy of APLA or the PAC at that stage, only to kill, to kill people, unarmed people, or what exactly, how did you understand, what was the policy of APLA or the PAC at that stage, regarding this struggle you were fighting?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Please explain, when you are talking about people, are you talking about the Europeans or Africans?  Even though they were Africans who were working for the government, if they were there also, those Africans who were working for the government, I would shoot them.

MR STEENKAMP: So, hypothetically, if there were black people in the shop that night, you would have killed them as well?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: I don't want to talk about something that didn't happen.  The black people were not in the shop, let us not talk about that.  If they were there, or black policemen, if they were there, I would kill them.  Black people were not there.  Let us not talk about that.

MR MALAN: Mr Ngesi, no, I mean that's not satisfactory.  If you're prepared to talk about policemen that were not there, then you should talk about people that were not there as well, non-policemen.

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: The blacks were not there.

MR MALAN: Were the policemen there?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: There was only one policeman.

MR MALAN: A black policeman?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: It was not a black policeman.

MR MALAN: But I heard you say if there was a black policeman, you would have shot him there, is that correct?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: That's correct.

MR MALAN: Now the question of Mr Steenkamp is, if there other black civilians, would you have shot them

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: If there were policemen, I was going to shoot them, but if they weren't police, I wouldn't.

MR MALAN: Sir, I'm informed, and if he says he will lead evidence, that at your trial, a black employee of the shop owner actually testified that he was in the shop and he was, there was an attempt to kill him as well, he was a black civilian working for the shop owner, can you remember that?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Yes, I remember.

MR MALAN: But why don't you tell the Committee this?  You just said now, maybe I'm wrong, but you just indicate there was no black people.  At your trial, a black person who worked in the shop testified.

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: I want to clarify this part about this black person.  They say this person was employed there in the shop, I don't know that, but in the scene there was no black policeman.  Maybe that person, as he was working there, he was trusted, he was trustworthy to them, and he was made to identify at that identification parade.  I was taken to the scene, maybe that Phuli (?), or that person saw me during the pointing out, maybe he was given a photograph of myself and he was told to take a closer look at me, so that he could identify me.  I'm sure he was promised something, that is why he did that, that is why he sold me out, that's what I believe in, that is why I didn't even talk about that Phuli, because Phuli identified me as a person who was there, though I know very well that there was no black person in that scene.  If Phuli was there, he was at the back where they say he was staying, but he was not in the scene.

MR STEENKAMP: So when you were asked this question, why didn't you supply this information to the Committee, that there actually was a black person in the shop, you said there was no black person in the shop, no civilians?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: I'm still saying that there was no black person in the shop.

MR STEENKAMP: You see the victims are saying that your attack was focused on unarmed people.  Now my question to you is, you are saying you were APLA soldiers, why didn't you focus your attack on the security police, or the police, or the people who was responsible for enforcing the laws of the land as it was at that stage, why did you decide on an unarmed shop, where people were working and selling to black people to anybody, why didn't you focus on them?  You were soldiers?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Those people were armed, then we didn't see their arms on that particular day, but we heard, through the newspapers and the radios that one lady tried to take her firearm, they say there was an armed policeman, but we didn't see him, nor the gun.  A person who escaped there had a revolver, a triple eight, he shot in the air about three times, maybe he was trying to call the police.  That's the report we got from the newspapers and the radios, even in court, that was the information that was given.  Even if the police were there, we were going to kill them.  The police station was about 100 metres from the scene, it's not far, it's only two streets from the supermarket.  They heard that there was a shooting, but they didn't come, they didn't go to that police when we were there.

MR STEENKAMP: So on your own version, on your own version, and that of the previous applicant, not a single person in the supermarket resisted when you decided to rob the shop, on the court's evidence that was provided to the judge sitting at the hearing, people were lying down, on your version they were standing up, not resisting at all, in other words they were unarmed, why are you saying now they were armed?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: I'm still saying that they were armed.  We won't take the story from the court and combine it with this story.  In court we wanted to save ourselves, we wanted to be acquitted.   This is not the court of law.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see any arms there, because as I understand what you've been telling us now is something you heard or read about later?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: No, I didn't see any arms.

MR STEENKAMP: Were you informed by Bhani or anybody that these people will probably be armed, before the incident?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: The only instruction we got from Bhani was to attack the police station.  As a person who once stayed there at Wesselsbron, I used to see the people armed there.

MR STEENKAMP: Did Bhani tell you only to kill white people, or what did he tell you?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: He said we must fire, open fire.

MR STEENKAMP: So he didn't tell you only to kill white people, is that correct, do I understand you correctly?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: That's correct.

MR STEENKAMP: Then maybe I'm wrong, but why is your version totally different from that of Bhani?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: What's the difference?

MR STEENKAMP: The previous applicant testified that their main focus was to kill the white people, the boers as he called them, and that was his instructions.  Now you're saying this is not correct.  Do you understand the question?   Now my question to you is, why... (intervention).

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I don't think that's - if my learned friend can rephrase his questioning, because the applicant didn't say that it's not correct what was said by Bhani.  He was asked what was he told by Bhani, and he said he said we must fire.  Now the question is, at what stage did he told them to fire, whether when they were briefed, because my understanding is that they were talking about what actually happened at the supermarket.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I'll... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible)?

MR MBANDAZAYO: In the supermarket he was told that, "Fire"... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible)?