Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-28

PROF DE KOKER: It is.  And then we have the statement that - although you've given assurances that it would be peaceful, if an of violence was perpetrated by throwing a hand grenade at a building during the march then that would not in Major Mbatha's opinion, amount to a breach of agreement.   The ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He says it would not have been an embarrassment.  He said if it had exploded the way that it did that he had planned, it would not have been an embarrassment.

PROF DE KOKER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  The result led to immediate action on the side of the ANC.  Immediately afterwards, the act was interpreted as - and there were various statements made, that this was actually an attack by the police on the ANC and there were also allegations that people saw a White man or men throwing the hand grenade.  Why were those statements made?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Before the witness can be able to answer, who made those statements?

PROF DE KOKER: I have at my disposal various statements made to the press at that stage and reported.  Statements by the - for instance, Mr Thys de Getsie who was then ANC - if I may translate or go over into the Afrikaans because that is the form that I have it in front of me
"ANC spokesman in the Northern Cape"
And he said:
"The ANC will proceed with mass action despite this hand grenade attack which happened on Tuesday during a march in Kimberley which may have been aimed at frightening away it's supporters"

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any comment on that?

LAURENS MBATHA: I'm not sure why they only select the ANC because even a police officer at that stage came up with a statement that he saw somebody amongst them who threw the grenade - we said to you it was a chaotic stage, we did acknowledge that thing yesterday.  And by virtue what Mr ...[indistinct] said, only showed you that the ANC had no knowledge about it, it was my command initiative - he is right with what he said.

PROF DE KOKER: I'm not aware of this statement by the policeman, can you elucidate?  Can you refer to who was the person and when was the statement made?

LAURENS MBATHA: Then you'll have to go to the police, they will tell you.

PROF DE KOKER: I've looked at the police dossier, there's no such statement in that dossier that I found.

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, I'm sorry, I'm telling you what came to my attention whilst I was still inside there - you might like it maybe in black and white, but that was an oral discussion - I was told at that time.

PROF DE KOKER: You said yesterday that you went inside and I take that as referring to the Section 29 detention - that you went into detention in June, do you still maintain that statement?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes, correct.

PROF DE KOKER: According to further evidence - and if I may quote, from the same Volksblad page dated the 27th of May 1993, page 2
"Mr Popo Molefe, member of the National Executive Committee of the ANC yesterday arrived here to investigate this explosion.  He told the Volksblad that the ANC were going to ask the Goldstone Commission to investigate the explosion.  An urgent and searching investigation is necessary to avoid Kimberley becoming part of the pattern of violence in the country.  Mr Molefi said the possibility ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry to interrupt you, before we lose the importance of the question out of sight.
	In terms of the report that is being read to you it would appear that if you went into detention only in June, you would have been outside when Mr Popo Molefe visited this area.  Can you throw light on that?

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, I actually came out on the 28th of June.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible that you might - you may be wrong in saying that you were detained only in June?

LAURENS MBATHA: It is actually the 2nd of June - if I recall very well, it is the day on a Monday that I was picked up.

CHAIRPERSON: When Mr Molefe came here, where were you - outside or already in detention?

LAURENS MBATHA: Mr Molefe came - though it was not for the first time, I'm not sure Sir, was I outside by then.  Before I could go to detention - I'd know during that week, I was really not convinced that he was around.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr de Koker, I think we should come down now to what really would be crucial for us to decide on as far amnesty is concerned and I want to ask this question to Mr Mbatha
	Mr Mbatha, why didn't you ask the ANC for their approval before you threw the hand grenade?

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, by virtue of knowing the agreements that have entered to, that would have meant a direct implication that the ANC has instructed that thing.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you think they would have approved of your action?

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, no.

ADV DE JAGER: Did they at any stage up to today approve of your action?

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, it was that justice will have to take it's course and within - amongst the clause that are here Sir, Commanders responsible for their actions will have to apply in relation to those actions.

ADV DE JAGER: That's still not an answer to my question.

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, what I'm saying is - during their submissions at the TRC - there is actually a document next to me also that does indicate that part, that for your actions you will have to apply for it.

ADV DE JAGER: That's for your actions and you're applying for amnesty, I understand that but my question was whether your party approved in any way up to today, of what you've done?

LAURENS MBATHA: No Sir, no communication so far regarding that what you say.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But have any disciplinary actions been taken by your superiors as a result of this action?

LAURENS MBATHA: The question was that justice will have to take it's course and nobody will be defended in that matter.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now, when you were asked by Mr de Jager whether you asked the ANC for an approval, would you have asked the ANC or if you didn't believe that your command initiative included the right to take the action that you did, would you not have asked your superior - which you have stated that at that stage was Mr Sepiwe Nyanda, as opposed to asking the ANC leadership?

LAURENS MBATHA: Madam, hence I said I've said the question of asking but I recall very well regarding my monthly reports, the very same statement of the insecurity - if I can extract them and present them over to you as a serious concern, was brought to their attention.

SISI KHAMPEPE: My question merely is - whether if you had thought there was a need for you to ask for permission to proceed with your operation, would you not have asked Mr Sepiwe Nyanda for that permission?

LAURENS MBATHA: Madam no, hence I said it is within my command initiative.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand the question?

LAURENS MBATHA: I understood it in as far as authority regarding the action itself.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you understand the question?

LAURENS MBATHA: That - would I have actually asked permission from Sepiwe as the Chief of Staff of the ANC by then - of MK by then, to proceed with that type of action.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that's not the question, that's not the gist of the question.  The gist of the question is, had you found it necessary to seek authority from Sepiwe, would you have asked for such authority had you found it necessary to do so?

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, I've raised it many a times but the question was no, they cannot authorise that thing.

CHAIRPERSON: I wonder whether this shouldn't be a convenient point to break for lunch, maybe until a quarter to two.  We will adjourn until a quarter to two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

LAURENS MBATHA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bode?