Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: He did not report the incident to me personally, he reported it to Willie Nortje and he said that a shooting had taken place and that people had been killed, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Did he indicate that they acted in self-defence or not?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: The feeling that I got was that they had been shot on and that they returned fire.

MR CORNELIUS: You heard the evidence of Nofomela who gave evidence this morning, that he was at the scene by the bridge, do you have any comment on this?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I cannot remember his presence there, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Was Col de Kock at the bridge?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, he was not there at all.

MR CORNELIUS: And Simon and the askaris also did not go into Chesterville on foot.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson, they didn't.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you ever make a statement about this incident to the police?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you at any stage give evidence at an inquiry?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Had there at all in your presence been planning beforehand that people would be murdered that specific evening?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You also never received an order to this effect?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you expect that people would be shot dead that evening?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Where did you think that this AK47 came from?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: As far as I knew, the AK had been received from Security Headquarters' safe and this is how it arrived at Willie, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You at some stage also thought that the weapon could possibly have come from Vlakplaas itself.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: The people who had been acted against as far as the infiltration is concerned, were they originally ANC or what political affiliation did they have?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: According to my knowledge they were from the ANC, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Was the whole action launched and the whole operation by C10, against the so-called enemy, was it aimed at infiltrating the so-called enemy?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Had it also been your thought?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: And you then apply for amnesty - or let me just be complete.  You did not receive any reward?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You also did not expect a reward?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You did not have any ill will or malice against these members that were attacked that evening?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You accordingly apply for amnesty for the possible illegal possession of a firearm.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Just to be complete, although you had knowledge of the weapon, who handed the weapon to Simon Radebe?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Willie Nortje, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: But you were present.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: And at the stage when Steve Bosch - let me rather ask you this.  Which four white people had there been?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: It was myself, McCarter, Steve Bosch and Willie Nortje, Sir.

MR CORNELIUS: At the stage when you were waiting at the bridge, was Vermeulen present?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Cornelius.  Mr Ramawele, questions?

MR RAMAWELE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Vermeulen, tell me, I heard that you - in your testimony there is nowhere where Mr de Kock features in this Chesterville incident.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: What was your rank at the time when this incident occurred?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Warrant Officer, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: You were working under the direct instruction of Mr de Kock, is that not so?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: At Vlakplaas and also in Durban you were under the command of Mr de Kock.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Do you know with whom Mr de Kock went to Durban?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: So you only saw Mr de Kock after he had arrived in Durban?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: You cannot dispute the fact that - you cannot dispute the evidence of Mr Nofomela that he went with Mr de Kock to Durban therefore?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Now in Durban the discussion relating to the infiltration, who gave the members the instruction to go and make the infiltration?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I do not understand the question.  Was this with the Chesterville incident or in general?

MR RAMAWELE: I'm talking about the Chesterville incident, Mr Vermeulen.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: No-one specifically gave an order that Chesterville specifically had to be the target area.  Nortje and myself as I've said, had gone to the army base where they indicated to us that Chesterville was a flashpoint and Willie Nortje decided that he would deploy the group there, Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Where did Mr Nortje decide that?  Where was it, in Vlakplaas or in Durban?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Here in Durban itself, at the police station or the army base, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: At that time when Mr Nortje made that decision where was Mr de Kock?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Mr de Kock was at that stage - I did not see him, but I assume that he was at the quarters at CR Swart.

MR RAMAWELE: You are not able to say whether Mr de Kock was part of that particular decision that was taken?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: Mr de Kock was not at all present at that decision to go to Chesterville, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Mr de Kock should have known that Chesterville was a boiling point at that time, not so?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, he could have known this, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Could he have known or should he have known?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I believe that he should have known.

MR RAMAWELE: And tell me, the - and also, Mr de Kock should have known that there were police officers who were killed in Durban, he should have known that.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: And now when a decision is taken to infiltrate the UDF or the ANC in Chesterville, Mr de Kock is not there.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Was he asleep at that time when the decision was taken?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: I cannot say, Mr Chairperson, I was not present with Mr de Kock.

MR RAMAWELE: Okay.  So you say Mr Nortje now made a decision that an infiltration has to be done?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: This is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: And who was to make the infiltration?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: The team that moved out with us, Mr Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: So you were part of the - were you part of the group that went to Durban, or let me put it this way.  Did the Vlakplaas members who went to Durban, did they come in groups or did they all, except Mr de Kock, did they all just arrive in Durban at once?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES MR VERMEULEN: If I can remember correctly, then the whole team arrived at the same time at CR Swart, Mr Chairperson.