Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-11

MR MACADAM: And you said earlier that when Gcina Mkhize approached you to join the hit squad and this led to you going to this meeting in Ulundi, he had announced that he was one of the persons who had been trained in the Caprivi and you said that you had knowledge of this group at that stage.  What did you know about them?

WITNESS:   Yes, I knew them.  Even though I wasn't so sure about where they were trained, whether in Caprivi or Israel, they were at times referred to as Israelites and with the knowledge I had, I knew that it is a group that has been posted to different police station in KwaZulu so they could be helping Inkatha fight against ANC and also, there was that rumour or the spirit that if you're a member of KwaZulu Police Station and they were suspecting you to be sympathising with the

MR MACADAM: /ANC,

MR MACADAM: 2B ANC, those would be the person who will be contacted or the people will be contacted to kill you.  Now all the police who were working in the KwaZulu police stations were working so cautious that they don't come anywhere close or have any kind of dealings with the ANC, because they were afraid for their lives, especially those trained in Caprivi or Israelites who will deal with them accordingly.  That was the kind of knowledge I had about the group.

MR MACADAM: And after this meeting in Ulundi, which you've described to us, did you then return to Esikhaweni?

WITNESS:  That is true, I went back to Esikhaweni.

MR MACADAM: Did you have any further dealings with Gcina Mkhize once you had returned?

WITNESS:   Yes, I did.  From then until the time when I was arrested.  I explained to Gcina Mkhize that as it was explained at Ulundi that the weapons with which we'll work are not the kind of weapons that are being used by the police, but were weapons like AK47 and such.  Now I explained to him that he had to train me or at least give me some knowledge about how to use such weapons and he told me that that was not a problem, he will arrange that and further told me that the leaders also indicated that I should be given some kind of training to carry such operations.

MR MACADAM: Did you in fact receive such training?

WITNESS:   Yes, Gcina trained me how to use these weapons.  Even though the training did not take place concurrently, we had training sessions in different days, not at once.  He taught me how to use and operate AK47 and how to use the hand grenade like F1 hand grenades and RGD5 hand grenades and also taught me how to use weapons or guns like

MR MACADAM: /Scorpion,

MR MACADAM: 2B Scorpion, guns like Makorov and one other called Stechkin(?) and also explained about how to use RPG7, even though it was not there, but he told me that as time progressed, there will be a need for us to use that kind of a weapon and he told me that it was necessary for me to know how to operate such a gun.  And explained as well that there will be a need at some stage where we will have to use PE4 and he also told me that it was necessary for me to know to operate that.  And also taught me the house penetration in case we wanted to kill someone in the house and also taught me tracking and reconnaissance.  He was not teaching me these things at once, but at different days at a time that was convenient for us.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbambo, you mentioned two weapons there.  RPG7 and PE4.  Just for the record, is an RPG7 a rocket propelled grenade?

WITNESS:   RPG7 is the rocket launcher and uses anti-tank and ant-personnel launchers.

CHAIRPERSON: A PE4?

WITNESS:   PE4 is an explosive that you use in case you want to destroy buildings, big buildings, huge bridges and is a solution like mud and you use that to weigh how much big a building you want to destroy and you put it right next to that building and insert Cortex in it and safety fuse in case you - the building is so massive -huge, you are able to put that explosive in some place and some Cortex around so you could build charges around the building and ultimately, at the end of the Cortex there will be a stick like a match stick which will be one that will be lit and after that it will explode.

MR MACADAM: Did Gcina Mkhize actually physically have in his possession firstly PE4, then the hand grenades and the Stechkins, Tokarevs, Makorovs, AK47s or was it a

MR MACADAM: /theoretical

MR MACADAM: 2B theoretical discussion, without physically having these weapons with him?

WITNESS:   The RPG7, PE4, were the ones which were explained to me theoretically, but these others like AK47, Makorov, Stechkins and Scorpions were the guns that he brought with and we ended having such guns in our possession and the hand grenades as well.  We kept such and we used them.

MR MACADAM: Do you know where he got these weapons and hand grenades from?

WITNESS:   At the time when he brought those weapons, I had no idea as to where he got those weapons, but one of the AK47s I knew that he got it in the house at Port Durnford which looked like a farmhouse and Thomas Buthelezi was guarding the house and one of the guns he had was from that house, but as for the others, I have no knowledge of.

MR MACADAM: This person, Thomas Buthelezi, did you know him yourself?

WITNESS:   Yes, I know him, but I knew him only that day.  Before I did not know him.  I knew him on that day.

MR MACADAM: Do you know if he belonged to any group or whether he was a member of the police or army or what the position was?

WITNESS:   I knew that he was one of those who had trained in Caprivi.

MR MACADAM: But at that time, do you know whether he was a member of the KwaZulu Police, or not?

WITNESS:   No, I did not know.

MR MACADAM: Now you told us earlier that you're a member of the Crime Prevention Unit of the police at Esikhaweni.  Did the Unit that you belonged to change at any stage after the meeting in Ulundi which you've described to us?

WITNESS:  Yes, it changed.  After that I joined the CIDs working as

MR MACADAM: /a detective.

MR MACADAM: 2B a detective.

MR MACADAM: How did that come about?

WITNESS:   When I was still with the Crime Prevention Unit after I had joined the hit squad, the meetings we used to have with local leadership of IFP, there were complaints that were brought to our attention, like Mrs Mbuyazi, Mayor, B B Biyela and the councillors like Mr Nzuza, Mrs Njali(?), a councillor, Mrs Joyce Mathenjwa, who were the IFP leaders at the local level.  Mr Mkhize, G L Mkhize who also was a councillor, Mr Nzuza, who was a councillor, all those who were leaders of the IFP locally, had a complaint that the IFP Youth, each time they fought the ANC, they will get arrested, but the ANC will never be arrested.  Now the local leadership was convinced that within the police station in Esikhaweni were two officers who sympathised with the ANC, who were the ones who led to the arrest of the IFP Youth and the harassment thereof and those officers were Lieutenant Masinga, who was the Branch Commander, Internal Stability Unit and Captain Manzini, who was a DCIO(?) in charge of the investigators.  The IFP local leadership believed that the IFP Youth arrests were as a result of those two police who were based in Esikhaweni Police Station.  The local leadership arranged a meeting with Brigadier Mzimela who was the district commander in Esikhaweni, where they were going to lodge their complaints with regards the arrest and the harassment of IFP in Esikhaweni.  Mrs Mbuyazi came to the Esikhaweni Police Station and Mr B B Biyela, who was the mayor and went to - and had a meeting with the brigadier, Mr Mzimela.  After that meeting we met with Mrs Mbuyazi and B B Biyela and the police station and they told us with Constable Victor Buthelezi that they were

MR MACADAM: /from