Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-24

LALOO CHIBA: Okay.  I think there is one or two things that I need to say.  I deeply appreciate the fact that I have been given this opportunity. I have pointed that out before.  But SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
17 L CHIBA
for myself, personally, I really do not want the Commission to do anything for me. I got politically involved in the knowledge that the battle was going to be a tough one, it is going to be a hard, long struggle with many sacrifices along the way.  I did so on the understanding that there would be no reward, no remuneration, no recognition. It is on this basis that I don't want the Commission to do anything for me personally.
 But having said that, I think I must stress that the Commission has a very important function to do, to ensure that the perpetrators who carried out so many acts of torture, who are guilty of murdering, killing our people, are actually brough to justice.  I think that it is the responsibility of the Truth Commission to ensure that they are brought to justice.  But when I say they are brought to justice, I actually mean that their deeds must be known publicly, must be made public.  They must acknowledge that there were gross violations of human rights. They must acknowledge that it was incorrect and they must admit that this was done.  It is only if they do so, can they be forgiven and if only they do so can there be true national reconciliation. I think the Commission has an important role to play in this respect.
 I also want the Commission to correct one or two misperceptions.  We who were arrested and detained, we who were tortured and imprisoned, are often viewed by our people as heroes and heroines.  I think this is understandable, but the real heroes and heroines are our people, are those who remained behind to keep the home fires burning.  The real heroes and heroines of our people are those upon whose shoulders fell the heavy responsibility of ensuring that the SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
18 L CHIBA
struggle continued, and that they had brought the struggle to a successful conclusion.  I think you must give true recognition to that fact. I am sure that the Commission can correct that perception.  That is all that I have to say.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you very much.  You have named a number of perpetrators who have been mentioned in a number of people's statements.  Certainly, the Commission has taken note of that.  I would, however, like to stress that in terms of amnesty and in terms of human rights violations, the human rights violations committee's job is to investigate the gross human rights violations that took place, and it is within that ambit that we can bring people forward.
 However, the process of amnesty is a voluntary one, and we do not go out and seek people to come forward to apply for amnesty.  So I think we must just keep that issue in mind.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Chiba,  if you could just wait one moment while I just ask if Hlengiwe has any questions.

MS MKHIZE: Yes, I have. Thank you very much, Mr Chiba. I will supplement some of the questions that have been raised by a leading Commission, Yasmin Sooka.
 My first question to you is around what since to - hold back your healing.  You have made a statement and you kept on emphasising that you still feel bad that you screamed, and asked for mercy from your enemies.
 I just wanted to know from you, as to what other options were there, what else, when you look back, you think you could have done under the circumstances.

LALOO CHIBA: I consider myself to be a revolutionary and I think that a revolutionary ought not to give his enemies the pleasure they derive from one's suffering. I think that it
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
19 L CHIBA
was my job to ensure that just as I had denied them the pleasure of the information that they wanted, so once again I should have denied them the pleasure of listening to my screams. I think that is what I should have done.  I failed to do that, it is a shortcoming, it is a failure, it haunts me. I can't come to terms with it.  That's about all I can say.

MS MKHIZE: A related question. Based on your evidence, I should think you are one of the those people who will assist this Commission in terms of getting a clear picture of the practice of torture as a human rights violation in this country.  I just want to know from you whether you think the methods you utilised, they got severe over the years, because historically you come, you have an experience of your rights being violated as far back as the Sixties.  We have had people coming with the same phenomenon who were tortured in the Eighties.  In your own judgment, when you look back now, do you think their methods utilised got worse or severe over the years, or they were milder?

LALOO CHIBA: I don't think that I am in a position to comment on that.  I have no experience whatsoever of the methods of torture that were employed during the Seventies and the Eighties, except to say that people were very, very vicious. In the earlier years the number of people who actually died and killed at the hands of the special branch, were far fewer in number than what had actually happened during the late Seventies and the early Eighties, and during the Eighties one can only assume that they actually resorted to actually killing people, many of them disappeared from the face of the earth. I don't think I can say anything further than that.
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
20 L CHIBA

MS MKHIZE: Thank you.  My third question relates to also the after effects of torture.  We have had witnesses over the past two days, one witness in particular, emphasising that in this country we need facilities for dealing with the after-effects of trauma.  Would you agree to that, that if there was such a facility you would say you have got scars that need to be looked at?

LALOO CHIBA: No, I think I would agree, I would go along with that.

MS MKHIZE: Just one last question which relates to policy.  I have been really tasked by you, our experiences of torture, but I will ask you this question.  If you are not comfortable to respond to it, please say so, I would understand.
 For us as a Commission, since we have started, we have had people who were exposed to extreme forms of torture, as you have been saying, but also have heard another category of people who are saying they have been tortured by people who had left this country, having been tortured. People are saying they were tortured outside in the ANC camps.  So we have been struggling with that, in the sense that, how can we assist in policy formulation to make sure that these things never happen again.  So while one will think that people who transfer their experiences and make sure that never - those things are never done to other people again, is like history tells us that people forget and repeat the same thing to others.  So would you assist us, just giving us your own sort of ideas, as to how do we make what needs to be done, to make sure that such practices are not repeated.

LALOO CHIBA: I really don't know how to answer the question,
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
21 L CHIBA
except to say that gross human violations of human rights, no matter where they occur or who are the perpetrators, should never happen at all.  I think that the word of the truth, the TRC here is of such importance that it can ensure that such gross human rights violations never occur, irrespective of where it comes from, irrespective whether it is within this country or outside this country, but it should never happen again.  I think that "never again" must be the slogan of a new human rights culture in this country.

MS MKHIZE: I thank you.