Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-11

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Mr Chairman, speaking for myself, at this moment where I am sitting, I am not in a position to explain.  The problem that I have is that all this information was transferred to our Cape Town office and I expressed to them the urgency of this matter and I explained everything to them, and also that this matter would be argued today, but unfortunately I am as disappointed Chairperson, I regret.

CHAIRPERSON: Who appears for the ANC here?   Are you available Ma'am, tomorrow morning at nine o'clock?

MS THOMAS: I could make myself available Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, very well.  This application will be postponed to tomorrow morning at nine o'clock at the instance of the TRC.   Whether the TRC is ready or not, the application will proceed tomorrow.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you please Mr Zuko convey to the TRC in Cape Town that whether those documents are ready or not, the application will proceed tomorrow morning at nine o'clock.  They have had more than enough time to prepare those documents, thank you.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused Ma'am.

MS THOMAS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: (continues)  Mr Baloyi, I was asking about statements you had made.  Do you remember a person by the name of Constable T.J. Matengane as an Interpreter when a statement was taken at your house in Bafokeng Street?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I remember this Police Officer said they were from Germiston.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the name of the ...

MR STRYDOM: Matengane, and he acted as an Interpreter to translate from Tsonga to English, do you remember that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember if he just acted as an Interpreter or is he the person who took the statement from you and simultaneously interpreted?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: He interpreted and he also wrote down what he was writing.  They are the same Police Officers that I had first refused to give a statement to.

CHAIRPERSON: When you spoke to Mr Matengane, was there another Police Officer present?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: He was in the company of a white Police Officer.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, and was Mr Matengane interpreting what you were saying to this white Police Officer?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: And did you feel free to tell the Policemen there everything you knew about the incident?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: At that time, I did not feel free because I was in pain because all the windows had been broken and the air would come into the house.

MR STRYDOM: Do you say it was too cold to give a proper statement, or a full statement, is that what you are saying?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did give a statement on what I knew.  I did not explain everything to him but I just explained about what happened at my house.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but I want to know why did you not explain everything to them?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: He did not enquire about everything else.

MR STRYDOM: But didn't he ask you to tell him what you know about the attack on the 17th of June 1992?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, he just enquired about what had happened at my house that the damage had incurred.

MR STRYDOM: Did he ask you to tell him what you saw on that night?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I did tell him that I saw the IFP and white Police Officers as well as casspirs and "koyoco's".

MR STRYDOM: And after the statement was written down, did you sign that statement?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am not sure.  I could have signed it, but I am not certain.

MR STRYDOM: Was the statement read over to you after it was taken down?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They did, I did hear what they were saying, but I was not in a position to listen very carefully.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say because you were in pain?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: What I mean is that at the time when they asked questions, they were just asking questions, but at the time I was feeling pain because I had no money to replace everything that had been damaged.

MR STRYDOM: The pain that you felt, was it a physical pain or a pain because you felt bad about what had happened?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Firstly if you are in emotional distress, the entire body is also affected.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Baloyi, that is not the question that - you are being asked whether was this a physical pain that you are talking about, or some other pain?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It was emotional pain.

MR STRYDOM: Were you happy with the Interpreter, that he could do his job properly?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: He interpreted well because he spoke fluent Shangaan, but my heart was still sore.

MR STRYDOM: Are you happy that everything you said, was written down and taken up in the statement?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The statement was not read to me, I do not know what they wrote down.

MR STRYDOM: But Mr Baloyi, earlier on you said that the statement was read to you?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, what I am saying now is what I know to have written what I said when they took the statement.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but let's ask again.  After the statement was taken, maybe before you signed, was this statement read to you?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, they did read it.

MR STRYDOM: And you were happy with what was written down?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I was satisfied that they had written what I had told them.

MR STRYDOM: So everything you had told them, was written down, is that right?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not know whether they did write everything.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Baloyi, you were giving the information then they wrote it down and then they read the statement to you, so you could hear if everything you said, was written down?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: What I am saying is they read what they had written down what I had said before, to them, and I agreed that I was happy that it was what I had said to them.

MR STRYDOM: Maybe I must put it this way, nothing important which you had mentioned, was left out?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did not really take notice.

MR STRYDOM: Did you tell the person that took the statement about the participation of Mr Vanana Zulu during the attack?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: As I mentioned before, yes I did tell him as it happened.

MR STRYDOM: And when the statement was read back to you, was that portion contained in the statement?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They did read, but I cannot say at this point whether that portion was read back to me, or whether I heard it or whether they had omitted it.

MR STRYDOM: Do you regard it as an important part of your statement, the fact that you recognised Prince Vanana Zulu in Boipatong?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am saying when they approached my home, two houses were first damaged, that is Victor Nqwani and Buwa's house.  He was standing outside on the lawn.

MR STRYDOM: And all this detail, you gave to the person who took the statement?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I did tell them.

MR STRYDOM: Did you tell them that prior to the people that arrived, the attackers that arrived in the vicinity of your house,  "koyoco" stopped at that house or close to your house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It was parked in front of the garden, I was watering my garden.

MR STRYDOM: At what time did you water the garden, was it already dark or was it still day time or what?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I said we were waiting because we had been aware that they were on their way.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but that doesn't answer the question, when you watered the garden, was it already dark or was it still day time?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It was around six, seven.

MR STRYDOM: Being winter time, then it must have been dark, is that correct?