Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-07-01

JUDGE WILSON: You said that you obtained ammunition.  Where did you obtain that ammunition from?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: That was during the previous operation at Potchefstroom where we acquired, we stole a large quantity of ammunition and explosives.

JUDGE WILSON: So from there you went to Wahlmanstal?  This was the - how many days beforehand had the Potchefstroom operation taken place?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: I think it was about three days earlier.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  Just so that we can clarify the chronological order of events.  How long after the murders at Louis Trichardt, did these two house break-ins and the robbery take place?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: These happened in quite short succession. With these murders in Louis Trichardt, that completely disrupted our planning.  So we attempted to carry out these operations as soon as possible so that we could obtain the money we needed with which we would purchase and equip the base in Namibia.  After which we would be able to leave the country in our personal capacities and return with false passports and false identities.

UNKNOWN: Mr Du Plessis, how did it transpire that you and Mr Van Wyk became alienated from Grobbelaar and White?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: After we had carried out the robbery at Wahlmanstal, and taken the weapons, we returned to the holiday resort, which was called Utopia, and we decided, or rather I decided, that we should go on to the planning and preparation of the robbery of the money.  I then tried to obtain explosives for that purpose, and I then had to leave the group. I thought perhaps I would try and approach somebody who knew about mining operations, so that I could obtain the explosives from such person.  That was on the Monday morning that I left. I hitch-hiked from there, because the other members needed the vehicle.  Then on Wednesday I returned, and the base had been left behind. The premises that we were renting were empty and there was nobody there.  So I returned to Pretoria and coincidentally I bumped into Van Wyk in the street near Sunnypark.  I asked him whether he knew where White and Grobbelaar were. He said Grobbelaar and he had been in Sunnypark the previous day.

JUDGE WILSON: Where?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Sunnypark is a shopping centre in Pretoria.
They became separated from each other. They were meant to meet again that afternoon.  Grobbelaar never turned up.  So he and I then returned to Utopia where the holiday resort was. He then said that they had made arrangements that should something go wrong, they would meet in the bushes near Buffelspoort Dam.

UNKNOWN: Was he not there?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: For two evenings in succession we went there and we didn't find anything. That was the Wednesday evening and the Thursday evening.  On Friday morning then Van Wyk and I were arrested in my flat.

UNKNOWN: Didn't it seem strange to you that they left on their own? Because I understand from the police report that those two, White and Grobbelaar didn't have a cent on their bodies when they were found.  The police said no money was found there.

JEAN DU PLESSIS: I would have expected there should have been about R500,00 there.

UNKNOWN: Mr Du Plessis, to sum up. Regarding the arrest. This organisation, did you see them as part of the right-wing resistance or did you see it as a totally separate element?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: No, we very clearly adhered to the general right-wing sentiment. We felt that particularly with regard to the Boerestaat Party and certain ideas of the Church of the Creator that we were supportive of those ideals and that we were working in support of those ideals.

UNKNOWN: Just for the sake of interest, why weren't you impressed by the AWB?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: At that stage I thought we could perhaps recruit from the ranks of the AWB because there were a number of young people there who were reasonably convinced of their right-wing views, but I felt that the AWB was infiltrated by the security police and I didn't have much faith in the leadership of the AWB.

UNKNOWN: How did you plan to expand your organisation, would you found more cells or would you simply enlarge the existing cell?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: What we planned, was that after stealing the money, we were intending to go to Namibia, and buy a large farm there.  We planned to steal between 500 000 and R1 million.

UNKNOWN: Proceed.

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Which some of that money we would have used to buy the farm and then together with other people that we had previously approached, White would then have established the base there, and Van Wyk and I and perhaps Grobbelaar would then have gone to Europe to establish a similar organisation there and also to recruit.  There were a number of students and ex-colleagues of mine from the Defence Force who I envisaged as possibly joining us.  There was a group of about 20, 30 people we were hoping to train initially, and then we would have gone to Pomfret where there was a large military base, to get military equipment, weapons, ammunition and so on.  We would then have been able to work as a larger group.  But what was planned, was that from that point we would have established houses,  plots, locations throughout the Republic, jumping-off points as it were, where we would establish one-man or five-man cells.  I think in Van Wyk's application for amnesty some of the planning is set out there. They would have operated in cells, military cells.
	I had planned in my own capacity to return and help with the political front, the establishment of that political front and White would have taken care of the military wing.  That was the original plan.

UNKNOWN: Now briefly, the arrest. How were you treated -I just want to deal with that briefly, your treatment at the hands of the security police and the investigating officer.

JEAN DU PLESSIS: On Friday morning, at six o'clock, the 8th of November we were arrested or rather, there were approximately nine security policemen who entered and began interrogating us about Christine Bussart, who was a French citizen, and that was that they were investigating a case of abduction regarding Christine Bussart, an illegal immigrant.  Under that pretext they asked us to accompany them to the security police offices, where they wanted to ask a couple of questions.

UNKNOWN: Were you intensively interrogated?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: From the morning when I arrived there, I was intensively interrogated. At first by one policeman, and then later on I was moved from that office, I was interrogated in another office by a police woman and another policeman.  However, I was only moved there after I had begun to give them and co-operate with them after what had happened in the first office.

UNKNOWN: How long were you kept away from legal advice and your legal representatives during this whole period?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: From the time I arrived and I had realised that they were not questioning me about Christine Bussart, and that they wanted to know what my activities had been the preceding days, weeks and possibly months, and the fact that they confronted me with White and Grobbelaar and concerning firearms, at that point I said that I wasn't prepared to answer their questions and I insisted on first calling my attorney, before I answered any questions.

UNKNOWN: To summarise, were you allowed to establish meaningful contact with your attorney?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: No, not at all.

UNKNOWN: The interrogation and detention, was that traumatic?

JEAN DU PLESSIS: Well, when I refused to co-operate and before seeing my attorney, they threatened me with Section
29 and they began to break me down psychologically.  I do not know if I may mention the person's name?

UNKNOWN: Yes, please mention it.