Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

MR VAN STRAATEN: I was arrested in Pretoria.   If I remember correctly, there were four or five investigating officers, using two vehicles.   I phoned Adriaan to tell me, or to ask him that he should come and pick me up in front of the State Theatre in Pretoria.

<UNKNOWN>: Is that the evening that the police picked you up?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes, the evening of the arrest.

<UNKNOWN>: Where did they then take you?

MR VAN STRAATEN: We were then taken first to Vanderbijl Park Murder and Robbery Unit.   On the evening of my arrest, I had been drinking, but I was fully conscious.   We did not make any confessions or statements that evening.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you indicate to the police, or rather let me ask it in a different way, did the police ask you about your crime upon your arrest?
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MR VAN STRAATEN: /...
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MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes.   After they arrested Adriaan, we were not supposed to have been together, they kept us separately, each on his own.   I was in Meyerton, Adriaan was in Vereeniging, Dawid was in Vanderbijl Park.

<UNKNOWN>: Are these the police stations?

MR VAN STRAATEN: That's correct, the police stations.

<UNKNOWN>: The police then asked you why you committed this crime, or did they not ask you?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes, they asked me.   The one investigating officer, whom I knew quite well, told me that he was sorry to have heard of the incident.   I then said to him, "Yes, it did not turn out in the way which we had intended."   He then asked me what our intention was with the truck.   When I told him what our purpose had been... (END OF TAPE 2A - WORDS LOST - START OF TAPE 2B)  ...arms.  Since I did not go there with arms, it was our intention only to tie them up.   On the way to Meyerton Police Station where I would have been kept under arrest, the one detective asked me, as we were driving along, and I'm not trying to say anything particularly nasty about them, but we all know that such a person being brought under arrest, that they threaten people, that they sometimes beat you up, he then asked me if this was one of my tall tales and whether I would attempt to make my case political and that I can forget about this, and his straight words were the following:  that I would have to live the rest of my life with Mandela at Robben Island, that we should play the game and tell them what exactly happened and then that we would not have a long imprisonment.   I was confused and did not know what exactly to do at that moment.   The next day, if I remember correctly, we went to the Vereeniging Police
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Station where we made statements.

<UNKNOWN>: Would that have been before your confession?

MR VAN STRAATEN: No, rather it would have been a confession in front of a magistrate.

<UNKNOWN>: So in 1991 you stood trial, is that correct?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: I made a statement.   I think that in my statement I confessed that I was involved in the crime.  When we were found guilty, and we do not feel that we had a fair trial, because the Legal Aid which I had, the attorney which I wanted to obtain told me that he could not take my case, since I had already made a confession.

<UNKNOWN>: You were then found guilty at the trial, you did not bring testimony at the trial, is that correct, that's the trial of '91, May '91, you made no testimony yourself, but you were found guilty, is that the case?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes.  I pleaded guilty on the crime at that time, I was confused, subsequently I pleaded not guilty on murder, guilty on robbery.

<UNKNOWN>: Is that how you pleaded?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Indeed.

<UNKNOWN>: You were then given 15 years of imprisonment, is that the case?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Indeed, and I am at Zonderwater Prison in Medium A section.

<UNKNOWN>: When were you placed in Medium A, were you placed there directly after your imprisonment?

MR VAN STRAATEN: No.  After having been found guilty, we were, if I remember correctly, for about two weeks in Leeuhof, and then we were put over to Zonderwater.

<UNKNOWN>: For how long were you in Zonderwater before you
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were placed in the Medium A section?

MR VAN STRAATEN: We were at Zonderwater, or I was at Zonderwater for about 2 1/2  to three years before I was placed in the Medium A section.   This particular section where we are currently imprisoned is a minimum security section of the prison.

<UNKNOWN>: Looking back upon the events of 1989, what would your current view in this regard be, how do you see what happened and what you did?

MR VAN STRAATEN: With the passage of time, many things changed, we also changed, we changed a lot.   If one looks at how things have changed since the election...

<UNKNOWN>: Which election are you referring to?

MR VAN STRAATEN: The 1994 election.   If I had known then what I know now, then I wouldn't have been sitting here today.

<UNKNOWN>: May I just take you back to one aspect, so that I can clarify it with you, the evening when Adriaan came to you, the evening of 17th of June 1989, if I understand correctly from his testimony, he suggested that you establish a cell?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes, yes, that's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: What was your understanding of how this cell would operate, how it would function, what would be its ultimate objective?

MR VAN STRAATEN: If we had continued with what we had been busy with, we, I think, would have targeted and attacked bigger places later on, we would have become stronger, gained more members.

<UNKNOWN>: Right.   Did you ever, did Adriaan ever tell you where this idea of a cell had originated, where he'd got the
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idea from?

MR VAN STRAATEN: He told me about this friend of his, who had told him to become involved in the Vaal Triangle.

<UNKNOWN>: Did he say anything more regarding this friend?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes.   Well at that stage, as I understand it, at that stage I didn't know Robbie Coetzee personally, I just heard of him, he was a member of the motor bike club and I'd heard of him, but I'd never personally met him.

<UNKNOWN>: You had also testified earlier that you were a member of the CP, the Conservative Party?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: And that you were a supporter of the AWB?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Your support of the AWB, how strong was that?

MR VAN STRAATEN: If they held meetings in nearby towns, I often attended these meetings.   I always kept myself slightly apart, I met many of the people there, until later on I, if I could have made a final decision, I would have joined them, but I never got that far.   I always just pursued their objectives, I was in agreement with what they were fighting for.

<UNKNOWN>: Could you perhaps give us one or two examples of these objectives with which you agreed?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes.   For instance self-determination for our own people, independence from other people...

<UNKNOWN>: When you talk about other people, what other people are you referring to?

MR VAN STRAATEN: I'm talking about other racial groups.

<UNKNOWN>: Right, I have no further questions, chairperson.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Van Straaten, you testified that you were a supporter of the AWB.   Did you ever attend any meetings of
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the AWB?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Could you repeat the question please?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you attend any AWB meetings?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Meetings?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you associate yourself with the political doctrines of the AWB?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And what was their political policy?

MR VAN STRAATEN: As I mentioned, self-determination, you've actually caught me unawares, but so that we could be entirely independent from other people, so that we could have our own schools.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: For how long were you a member of the CP?

MR VAN STRAATEN: From the election, I'm not sure whether it was '92 or '93.