Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-03

UNKNOWN: Yes, I am just sorry that time is limited, but the whole happenings regarding these issues revolved around my tribal authority and myself.  If you want to get
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the true picture of what happened, you need to get it from me.  Right.  
 Now, we invited these people on the 12th of May 1986, we invited the Cabinet.  Fortunately after having negotiated with the Commander, the then Commissioner of Police, Brigadier van Niekerk, he agreed that he would escort them to come to the Royal kraal there.  They came, fortunately, the Ministers.  The Chief Minister was brought at that time.  They were told in no uncertain terms that Imbokhoto is torturing them, is killing them, is doing all these things.  To that independence they do not want because they are not consulted.  In actual fact they do not want it and they do not want to hear anything about it and thirdly that all Uzunza Members of Parliament must resign.  Ntswene did take that, I thought that he was going to report and give the report back on the 14th of May.  
 On the 14th of May the meeting could not take place as planned because, one, on the 13th the Commissioner learnt in the afternoon.  Not the Commissioner, the Magistrate sent a letter to the Chairman of the Unzunza Tribal Authority to say that the meeting will not go on, it is prohibited.  Because of the promise from the Ministers that they are going to come back, people came in droves, in great, great numbers.  I do not know how many people were there on the 14th of May.  Thousands and thousands of people.  Fortunately we had journalists, you know, some from abroad.  We have people like Gillfilan from the DP.  We had people like those and when the police attacked us without any warning, without any warning they started just shooting like that, at random just like that, indiscriminately.  They were even shooting at my father and they targeted where my 
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father use to, you know, to stay under a big tree at home there.  They knew very well where he use to sit.  They targeted my father, shooting.  They tried to run away, they kept on shooting at him with teargas, got into the house, they just shot at him.  I have already said that two people died at that meeting.  After that incident.  That is the incident, actually, that sparked everything.  It sparked everything.  
 After that we started with this running up and down.  Going to the police, big police, going to the Ministers, doing all these things until such time that, this was an unfortunate incident where the, then Minister of Internal Affairs, Matauw Piet Ntoli was bombed.  Unfortunately, I was the first suspect there.  They came to me asking me all these funny questions, but I did not know anything about that, but peace did descend.  Peace did come to our place and people celebrated.  Unfortunately, people did celebrate.  They celebrated and that is why we are able to stop independence on the 12th of August.  We were able to be called, you know, to discuss the issue of the unrest and few, we were very few in Parliament.  Few as we were, we were able to bring a motion to have independence and Imbokhoto.  Imbokhoto disbanded, independence called off.  We succeeded in that.  
 Late November I got detained after documents and everything that we had were confiscated.  We were detained on the 10th of November.  Me and Andries Mahlangu and what was hurting was that being the Chairman of a very big Tribal Authority, I was put into a bakkie with dogs.  Now, dogs kept on barking at me.  Doing all this you know, these funny things and so on.  That was just humiliation.  They took me 
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to Siyabuswa, from Siyabuswa to Nylstroom.  At Nylstroom there I was not, you know, treated nicely because of those dogs.  Two, because of the room in which they kept me.  They kept me in a very small room with very dirty blankets, toilet facilities there, you find this bucket there full of lice.  They ate me almost the whole night.  After my release, I was released at a later stage because the then Chief Minister Skosana died and they were going to have elections.  Now, probably somewhere, pressure was put on the police to release me.  They released me.  
 My comrades who supported advised me that guy, we know that you are against these things, but you have to go on, stand for elections as the Chief Minister.  So that when you succeed you will have to help us call off independence, disband Imbokhoto, do all those things and bring back the area to normality.  Unfortunately, I failed.  
 Early in January Lerm called us.  No, before that.  Lerm called us to his office late November to say to us.  It was myself, Andries Mahlangu and my brother, that what we were doing, I do not know what that was, what we were doing was a treasonable act.  It was treason in actual fact.  He said he is a lawyer.  He showed us, you know, some pictures that he is a lawyer and he is going to make sure that he gets us arrested and he is going to deal with us because he has heard that we have been doing all these things and the police were not doing anything.  Van Niekerk was doing nothing about that so he was going to make sure that he deals with us accordingly.  
 In January the 14th he called us to his office again.  He said to us that we have imported hit squads, hit men to come and kill the Chief Minister and the rest of the 
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Cabinet and we are harbouring terrorists at our places so that they could kill the Chief Minister. He said to his police because there was Keen there, Andries Keen, who was the Deputy Commissioner.  Piet de Jager, Willie van Wyk and ... for us.  It was a hell for us because they started by closing down our offices in February, in January and February when I went to court.  During that time when my offices, all offices were closed we were being victimised by the police, victimised by the "kits konstabels" and so on. 
 On the 18th when I went to court because I made the application.  When I went to court I got arrested there by the KwaNdebele police because they realised that the ruling is going to be in my favour to get the offices open.  I got arrested, they brought me to Siyabuswa.  They did not try me until such time that I made an application that I be tried or be given bail.  They gave me bail early Saturday morning and Monday morning when I went to Parliament, because I was member of Parliament, I went to Parliament they arrested me again and put me in a van that was full of tyres, loaded with tyres, dirty tyres.  They mixed me with those tyres, took me to jail, put me there until Parliament was over because they were fighting that I should not attend the Parliamentary sitting because I was a nuisance.  I was always opposing them with my brothers.  
 Then they later again, when they were preparing for the again Parliamentary sitting, they took me in.  They took me in April, the fourth of April.  I was in there until such time I was taken again to Pretoria because they were saying I am a bomb expert, I know about the bombing of Makawe and they found a bomb here at Moutse Magistrates Offices.  Then they took me to Pretoria to interrogate me about that bomb.  MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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I knew nothing about it.  When after some time I was taken out again, brought to Wamshlanga.  When I arrived there they served me with a prohibition order that I should not attend meetings where independence is discussed, where the Government is criticised and so on.  They served me with that.  That day, again, I was charged by Kloppers under the Internal Security Act.  That is what he said, you know, treason, (inaudible), arson, murder, you name them. 
 When I appeared before court my attorney and my advocate Maklala Makala was arrested.  Advocate Mosega was harassed very terribly.  As a result he did not come back when I came, you know, to appear again with my brother.  When they took me, you know, to the hospital, what was unfortunate.  I was not a terrorist.  I regarded them as Imbokhoto, as terrorists.  I was not a terrorist, I was nothing, I was just fighting for our rights.  You know I was kept in chains throughout.  When I got to the hospital they would chain me.  They would chain both my hands and the feet.  I discovered that they were trying to show the whole nation what they do to their leader is what they will do to them.  
 I have already referred to the Prohibition Order.  I was given the second one and this second one stated that I have to pay R2 500.00.  I do not have to go out anywhere, I have to go to the police station three times a week and when I went out of the court the police were now following me everywhere I was going to.  On the third of December or November, I do not remember very well, I was with my wife at home and the police were always at home guarding me.  They would see everything that is happening at home.  
 One day they came home, they shot at my house and they 
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wanted to kill me.  I want to say they could not get hold of me.  I am here today and we are free.  They shot the bus and they ran away.  I do not know what happened to the gun that was found at the scene because nothing was done thereafter.  The police decided to run away because they thought that I had been shot the previous night.  They thought that I was a ghost.  I had been arrested many a times thereafter.  Lerm issued out many summons to my father.  I have them here with me if you need them.  
 We have been to courts and women were helping us and we defeated Imbokhoto, but even thereafter when it was the time for elections, Majozi came up with his tricks again.  He wanted to go back into the Parliament to start with his Imbokhoto activities again.  Can you imagine, it was in 1988, people were killed in KwaNdebele because of independence and Imbokhoto.  Even today there are people who disappeared.  Mahlangu, Shabangu and many others.  We do not know their whereabouts.  I have already alluded to the fact that if their bones can be discovered we would gladly like to have them and bury them so that there can be peace and reconciliation.  
 The first thing, people who suffered, people who got injured and people who are crippled as in now should be helped by the Government.  Those who cannot hear perfectly should be given hearing aids, those who are very sick should be given medical attention, those who cannot walk should be assisted in any way possible.  It should be investigated what happened to the others who went missing.  The third point, some people got mentally disturbed because they witnessed the torture, they witnessed the killing.  They need to be assisted, they need to go for counselling.  My 
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mother experienced everything and up to today she has been affected mentally.  People who lost their belongings especially those who really deserve help.  Many comrades lost their homes, they lost their shops because they were burnt down.  They need to be helped.  The fourth issue, I want to support my King that there should be a unity festival.  
 King Mayisha the Second sent me to call the people of Imbokhoto so that when we come to the Commission we would have met before and sort out the matter between us.  I was always calling them, we always held meetings to talk to them and they said, listen, we are not going to co-operate with you, we want our houses to be rebuilt, we want you to reinstate the Chiefs that you have fired from the Tribal Authority.  The third one I cannot remember very well, but they said to me we will only negotiate on condition that these three demands are met, but I think it is time for us to reconcile because there is peace.  
 I want to say the relationship between us and the Bantwanis was very good.  It is still good today and it should still be good.  We have worked together in many instances and we use to send them letters to inform them abut the activities of KwaNdebele.  Imbokhoto was an organisation forcing the people to accept independence even if they did not want it.  
 Thank you Chairperson.  I have documents that will help you with your investigation.  I hope that what we are doing here today will encourage the nation to stand together, to unite so that we can respect each other.  I thank you.