Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-07-08

MR KNOBEL: I honestly don't know Mr Vally, all I know is that the Minister had indicated that this man was the national authority on the usage of anti-riot agents and anybody who wanted to - any of these members who wanted to have his advice or his - wanted to have ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: His products.

MR KNOBEL: ... products, or were given the products by the Defence Force and wanted to have advice on how to utilise it, he was the person to advise, that's what I'm trying to say.

MR VALLY: So from what this says, the NIS could have given him direct order or obtained information or products from him?

MR KNOBEL: Yes, I don't think it would happened exactly that way, I think they would have asked him to advise them about the use of and how to obtain it and he would give them the necessary guidelines and they would then follow the inter-departmental route of getting the permission from the Chief of Defence Force or from the Minister and he would be the technical advisor.

MR VALLY: No, but this is the very point, I mean, you introduction makes it clear that the authorisation to Dr Wouter Basson would be obtained from these very people, and then you've got the Minister of Defence, you've got the Head of the Army ...(intervention)

MR KNOBEL: No, no, Head of the Defence Force.

MR VALLY: Head of Defence Force, I beg your pardon, the General Commanding Special Forces, the Chief of Intelligence, the Commissioner of South African Police, the General Commanding of South African Police, Security Branch,

MR KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: And you've got the Director-General, National Intelligence Service.

MR KNOBEL: Yes, correct.

MR VALLY: And what you are saying is,
"die situasie het tot of verband die operasionele aanwending van produkte gelewer deur die projek was egter anders", it was different, "in die opsig is Brigadier Basson getaak deur die gebruiker of the opdraggewer ...(intervention)

MR KNOBEL: Yes, what I am trying to say is, within that environment ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Yes, but now - sorry let me just finish that last sentence,
"and in his conduct by the person giving the instructions he was authorised to do so."

MR KNOBEL: I'm saying within that particular environment any activities that he performed in that environment, in the Police environment or in National Intelligence environment, was obviously approved by the Head of that particular department, that's what I am trying to say here.

MR VALLY: So ...(intervention)

MR KNOBEL: And I'm saying again to you, in my knowledge, this was the use of CR, or the potential use of CR.

MR VALLY: This is what confuses me because why would the Security Branch, or why would National Intelligence Service, or why would the Minister of Defence be obtaining CR from him?  Surely the Minister of Defence will come to you?

MR KNOBEL: Mr Vally, I have no idea why National Intelligence would want to use CR.

MR VALLY: If I was to put to you, based on what you say in this paragraph, that the poisons, anthrax in the cigarettes or cyanide in whisky or whatever, was what was envisaged ...(intervention)

MR KNOBEL: By myself?

MR VALLY: No, by authorising these individuals to directly authorise ...(intervention)

MR KNOBEL: I cannot answer that and I think I'd be speculating.

MR VALLY: No, but did they have the requisite authority to do so?

MR KNOBEL: No, I'm not saying that.

MR VALLY: Without having to go through the Co-ordinating Committee, because this was a separate issue?

MR KNOBEL: No, I cannot answer that, Mr Vally.  I've put down here the way I experienced this and what I was concerned about, and I have said in the next paragraph or on the bottom half of that paragraph, I was unhappy with the situation and I complained about it and I said I did not like it.  I thought that if any need was required for CR by for example the Security Police, the right person - I was in possession of the CR, it was on my stores and had to be protected and maintained by myself, and if anybody needed it they could come to me for it.  Or if it had been weaponised as it was in Project Academic - not Project Academic - we had the same problem the other day, remember, when we spoke about those two.

MR VALLY: Yes.

MR KNOBEL: But ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Project Black?

MR KNOBEL: No, no, not Black, but you know the one I mean.

MR VALLY: Okay.

MR KNOBEL: I can go back and look it up, but anyway the project where the Army weaponised CR and put it into rifle grenades, etc, etc, you remember that?

MR VALLY: Yes.

MR KNOBEL: Those items would be under control of the Chief of the Army, and that would have to be the liaison channel.  But the problem is, they didn't go directly to the Chief of the Army to access CR hand-grenades or whatever the case may be, they came directly to Basson.

MR VALLY: There's no reference to CR in this particular paragraph.

MR KNOBEL: But it's the only operational product that we had at that stage.

MR VALLY: Than you were aware of?

MR KNOBEL: That I was aware of, of course.

MR VALLY: And that's the issue I'm raising with you, that there may have been operational products which you were not aware of, which for example the Head of the Security Branch had the authority to directly access ...(intervention)

MR KNOBEL: It's misleading to say that I am saying he had the authority to directly utilise that, that's not what I mean here.  I'm saying that any activity of Basson within the environment of that particular department or section was under the control of that sectional head, and I was unhappy about that.

MR VALLY: Alright, just that same document, the annexure thereto, annexure A, which is the ...(intervention)

MR KNOBEL: It's the same annexure that I gave you just now with regards to the Minister ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: That is correct, yes.

MR KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Now, you've got Delta G Scientific, established 1982,

MR KNOBEL: Yes.  Opened in Midrand '85.

MR VALLY: Opened in Midrand in 1985, sold to management and employees 1991.  Last contract March 1993.  Final handing over of "aandeelsertifikate", share certificates, 31st of March 1993.  I want to touch on this whole issue for the last time, this issue of front companies.  When people were appointed directors of these front companies, I heard them telling us that they signed blank transfer of share certificates, do you recall that?

MR KNOBEL: Yes, I know that they testified to that.

MR VALLY: Alright.  I also have been given to understand, and you can tell us which companies it was applicable to, but first of all, when the companies were sold to whoever, and there have been disputes about who should have got shares and who didn't get shares, you - and I say you in your capacity as the person responsible for the companies as Surgeon-General because of Project Coast, or the Co-ordinating Committee.  Let's call it a Co-ordinating Committee.

MR KNOBEL: Yes, I would prefer it, yes.

MR VALLY: The problem is, the Co-ordinating Committee only met once a year as far as I understand, unless there were special meetings.

MR KNOBEL: No, there were special meetings.  The pattern that you see in the minutes that I still have in my possession and that I've not given to you indicates that there was usually a meeting at the beginning of the year, which there was the planning for the year meeting, but there was also a meeting towards the end of the year in which the budget of the following year was being determined.  And I said that these last few meetings were relating how to finally terminate and privatise the companies.

MR VALLY: So what would happen is that the remaining contract, with elements of the Defence Force, whoever, if they were cancelled, the company would be paid out?  The employees would buy the company, or the management would buy the company.  Thereafter were any of these companies re-sold to the Government at a profit?