Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-11

CHAIRPERSON: When you heard his voice, you were standing next to your window and looking through the window?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, we were watching as they were attacking those two houses.  As the windows were being broken in those two houses, we were watching.

CHAIRPERSON: And it was whilst you were standing there, that you heard his voice?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.  When they left Buwa's house.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, yes.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, were you inside or outside the house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I was inside, in the sitting room.

ADV SIGODI: And did you have the lights on in the house or were your lights switched off?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The lights were switched off inside the house.

ADV SIGODI: Did you have your windows opened or closed?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: We made sure that the windows were closed in such a way that if you are outside, you cannot open the window, but we could still hear what the people outside were saying.

ADV SIGODI: But wasn't there a lot of noise?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: As I mentioned before, the noise was coming from Bafokeng Street, there was a big noise.

ADV SIGODI: And this crowd that was coming, that was about four to six houses away from you, this large crowd, were they not making a lot of noise?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I think the people who making the noise, could have been the residents.  I am not sure whether it was the attackers or the residents.

ADV SIGODI: Were they singing or chanting or did you notice anything like that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, it sounded like people were screaming, but it was a noise.

ADV SIGODI: It was coming closer to your house, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: We have heard evidence that the attackers were shouting (indistinct), did you hear that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, they did say that and they also said kill the dogs.

ADV SIGODI: When did you hear this?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: As they were near Buwa's house.

ADV SIGODI: And you were inside the house, you could hear this whilst you were inside the house with your windows closed?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: As I mentioned before, we closed the windows, but in such a way that you could still hear what people were saying outside.

ADV SIGODI: How far was Mtwana Zulu from your house when you heard him calling out to your son?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Do you see that wall, would you not be able to see a person that far away?  You can.

ADV SIGODI: Could you hear?

CHAIRPERSON: You have a lot of pacing to do Mr Strydom, would you pace this distance which the witness has indicated.  Did you say it is from where you are sitting to that wall, there where there is a red and black curtain?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, where there is that (indistinct), I don't know whether it is a stove or something else.  Yes, I even see someone there.

CHAIRPERSON: So it is the distance from where you are sitting to that wall over there behind the legal representative for the applicants?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, the street will be in between, Bafokeng Street was in between.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: So that would be about ...

MR STRYDOM: I will do the measurement.

ADV SIGODI: Okay.

MR STRYDOM: This dancing with the boys - sorry are you  just busy?

ADV SIGODI: I just wanted to clarify the hearing aspect, and you say that they had started stoning the windows at Nqwani's house and at Buwa's house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SIGODI: At what stage did Mtwana Zulu call out to your son?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: When they emerged from Buwa's house.

ADV SIGODI: Did he also come out from Buwa's house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not know, I just saw him standing on the lawn.

ADV SIGODI: And you could hear him quite clearly calling out your son and the other two?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not doubt that for a minute.  That is my son.

MR STRYDOM: At that stage, wasn't your son hiding already with your wife?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They were still standing next to the kitchen and I told him that he should now go and hide.

MR STRYDOM: This dancing that your son did with Mtwana, was that at the stage he already stayed at the hostel, or was that still when he lived at Boipatong?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: This dance started a long while ago, many children in the township were taught.

MR STRYDOM: So is the answer Mtwana was still living in Boipatong?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: You would not know whether he lived in Boipatong or not, because sometimes he would be there at Bafokeng Street until such time that he got his own house at Majola Street.

CHAIRPERSON: When you saw him on that day, when last had you seen him, could you recall?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They didn't use to come to the township any more, because they were afraid of being killed.

MR STRYDOM: And the kids, your child and the other children, didn't go to kwaMadala hostel either?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, they no longer went to the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Did you tell your wife that you saw Mtwana outside your house on the night of the attack?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: What I said is that she would not confirm or say that she saw him, but she did hear his voice.

MR STRYDOM: Did she tell you that she heard his voice?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: We were standing together there, she heard his voice very well.

MR STRYDOM: If she heard the voice, did she also see him then?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not know, I cannot comment on whether she him or not.

MR STRYDOM: This is a very important aspect, surely you would have discussed this afterwards?  Did she tell you I saw Mtwana standing in the street like you did?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: What we discuss is different from what we saw.  All I can say is that I saw him.

MR STRYDOM: I will conclude by stating that your wife didn't say anything when she testified about Mtwana Zulu outside your house, she didn't say that she heard his voice, she didn't say that she saw him, she didn't say that you told her that he was outside.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: What I am saying is that many people who know what happened, are unwilling to come before this Committee because they are afraid that they would be killed by the Police.  She herself used her discretion in deciding what she told.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Baloyi, I don't want to argue with you, but I can understand if she was afraid to mention the Police, but why would she hide the name of Mtwana?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not know.

MR STRYDOM: Will this be a convenient stage?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Baloyi, you will have to come back tomorrow for further questions.  Do you understand?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I will be present.

CHAIRPERSON: We will rise and we will reconvene at nine o'clock tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS