Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1997-03-18

ANDILE GOLA: Yes she did say that.

MR BRINK: And she was unarmed?

ANDILE GOLA: No, I did not see any weapons.  She just had a small blanket around her.

MR BRINK: Having told you that she repented she moved EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
MR BRINK	163	MR GOLA
towards you, why didn't you then call upon the others in this group who were now approaching to hold it.  Here is a woman who now repents and wishes to join us, or join our 
movement, or the ANC.

ANDILE GOLA: Because the people were very angry when they got there.  I could not talk to them.

MR BRINK: But why did you stab her?  Here is a woman who said she repents, she wants to join the ANC, notwithstanding which you take you knife and you stab her.  Why?

ANDILE GOLA: Because she was coming towards me.  I was protecting myself.  It was self-defence.

MR BRINK: Protecting yourself from an unarmed woman when you had a knife.   A woman who said that she sought repentance, would join the ANC and you were defending yourself.  Please explain that?

JUDGE WILSON: And a woman who was over 50 years of age.

ANDILE GOLA: I was protecting myself because she was coming towards me in a hurry.

MR BRINK: With what?  With what was she coming towards you?   Here is an elderly woman ...(intervention)

ANDILE GOLA: She had a blanket around her.  I did not know what she had underneath that blanket.   I was scared that she would take my knife too, because I was tired.

JUDGE WILSON: How old were you at the time?

ANDILE GOLA: I was 17 years of age at the time.

JUDGE WILSON: And you were scared that this old woman of 50 might take your knife?  You seriously ask us to believe that?

ANDILE GOLA: Yes I was scared.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you saying that if she had not come towards you you would not have stabbed her?
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MS KHAMPEPE	164	MR GOLA

ANDILE GOLA: I would not have stabbed her.  I would just have followed after her.   I would have just taken her to
the rest of the group.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But, what was your intention to run after her, if it was not to stab her?  Had there not been a decision to kill her?

ANDILE GOLA: The intention was to kill her.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think Mr Gola, you must stick to the truth.  That is a fundamental requirement to your application.

JUDGE WILSON: Why did you draw your knife if you were frightened that she might take it away from you?

ANDILE GOLA: I took my knife out because when the group was approaching she ran towards me.  I did not know why she was running towards me.  And I took out the knife to protect myself, because I was tired as well.

MR BRINK: No I have nothing further.   The Committee has taken it out of my hands now.  No, I have nothing further, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

HASSAN MALL: How many times did you stab her?

ANDILE GOLA: I think it was twice.  I am not sure, because I have never stabbed anyone before.

HASSAN MALL: Where did you stab her?

ANDILE GOLA: Towards her face.

HASSAN MALL: Did anybody compel you to do that?

ANDILE GOLA: She compelled me because I realised that even after the first stab she was charging towards me still.

HASSAN MALL: So even after the first stab you saw her charging towards you and that is why you stabbed her a second time.    You feared that she was going to go for your knife ...(intervention)
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JUDGE MALL	165	MR GOLA

ANDILE GOLA: Yes I stabbed her a second time.

JUDGE WILSON: And she had still not drawn a weapon.

ANDILE GOLA: No, except that she kept on charging towards me.

HASSAN MALL: When did you join this group that chased after her?

ANDILE GOLA: I joined the group after the bus stop.

HASSAN MALL: You joined the group willingly because you knew where they were going?

ANDILE GOLA: Yes, I was aware of what they were going to do because I was at the meeting.

HASSAN MALL: So it was quite clear -  it did not occur to you that you should not join them?

ANDILE GOLA: Yes, I knew where they were going.

HASSAN MALL: And nobody compelled you to join them, that is correct, isn't it?

ANDILE GOLA: Nobody forced me to go.

HASSAN MALL: I want you to look at your application.  Attached to your application are two documents in handwriting.  One is called Annexure A and the other is Annexure B.   Is that your handwriting in Annexure A?

ANDILE GOLA: Somebody was writing on my behalf in this application.

HASSAN MALL: Annexure B, is that also somebody else who wrote on your behalf?

ANDILE GOLA: Yes Sir.

HASSAN MALL: And were you satisfied with what he had written there on your behalf?

ANDILE GOLA: I would say I was satisfied because he was writing on my behalf.

HASSAN MALL: And you signed it, Annexure B.  Is that your signature?   Look at Annexure B.
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JUDGE MALL	166	MR GOLA

ANDILE GOLA: Yes I signed.

HASSAN MALL: I want you to tell me, what is meant by this statement where it says, the last paragraph
"The above is my statement I made in the court.  It was untrue, because I took part in the killing of Mrs Mphambane".
That is correct, isn't it?

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, I do not think you are reading from the right place.   This applicant appears, he is Gola and he is - Annexure G, or Bundle G, Gola.   He does have an annexure.

HASSAN MALL: I thought it was D.

MR BRINK: No, no.  Is you have a look at the index you will see Gola, Number 7 Gola, is G.   D, is Mdyogolo.
This applicant is A M Gola and he is G.

HASSAN MALL: I am sorry, I withdraw all the questions I put to you.  I made a mistake.  I mistook your name for the other person, with a similar name.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Gola what kind of a knife did you use to stab the deceased?

ANDILE GOLA: It was a small knife, a fish knife.   It was a pocket knife, a fish knife that I would keep in my pocket.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And why did you bring along that knife on that day?   Was it for a particular reason?

ANDILE GOLA: Because back home in the village we would carry a knife all the time in the pocket.  We would slaughter sheep, cows ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Was this knife suitable for slaughtering cows?

ANDILE GOLA: Yes, it was suitable.
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JUDGE WILSON	167	MR GOLA

JUDGE WILSON: It must have been quite a big knife?

ANDILE GOLA: It was a small knife.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I suppose it was small, but very sharp.

ANDILE GOLA: Yes it was sharp.

HASSAN MALL: Any re-examination arising out of what has been said now?

MS COLLETT: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Just a few things.	When you associated yourself with this group who intended to kill the deceased, did you also intend to participate if you could?

ANDILE GOLA: Yes.

MS COLLETT: And if the opportunity presented itself for you to have stabbed the deceased you would have done so with that knife?

ANDILE GOLA: Yes I would have done so if I would have been given the opportunity.

MS COLLETT: And in fact that stabbing that you did do with that knife assisted in bringing about the death of the deceased, didn't it?

ANDILE GOLA: Yes, it is so.

MS COLLETT: You at no stage disassociated yourself with the intentions of the group.  It was at all times your intention with the group to kill the deceased.

ANDILE GOLA: Yes it was an intention.

MS COLLETT: Even after she had asked for forgiveness?

ANDILE GOLA: Yes, because I did not trust that she was sincere.  We did not trust that she was sincere.

MS COLLETT: It still remained your intention to kill her?

ANDILE GOLA: Yes, because she was not trustworthy.

MS COLLETT: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further
questions.
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MS KHAMPEPE	168	MR GOLA

MS COLLETT: .

SISI KHAMPEPE: It wasn't because she was not trustworthy, Mr Gola, there was a decision already taken to kill her.  Is that not the reason why you participated?

ANDILE GOLA: Yes, that is why I participated.