Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1997-06-11

ADV TEE: Thank you Mr Chairman, the matter has been clarified.  Mr Skosana, in paragraph 18 of your submission you say that the sensitive issue you wanted to do was, you needed somebody to confide in and who was very trustworthy and that was Joe Nkuna who was trustworthy, is that correct?
	Now in paragraph 20 you  carry on, Joe Nkuna promised to assist us and we also informed him that we came to Nelspruit to see to it that Soli skips the country.  In respect of what did he promise to assist you before you informed him about that - that Soli wants to skip the country.  What assistance were you looking for?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: As I have already explained, we came to Nelspruit to help Soli to skip the country.  We did explain that to Joe and he promised us, and that is the promise I am talking about.

ADV TEE: In paragraph 22 you say that each time he, meaning Joe Nkuna, left and he appeared to be going to work and we accepted that he was going to work about the affairs of the ANC, is that right?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That is correct.

ADV TEE: Did you have any reason at that stage not to believe that he was working for the ANC?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: As I have already explained, the only information that we had was that Joe was the Regional Commander and also the Secretary of the Region, so when he left early each morning, we thought he was going to his normal duties as he used to tell us that he is going to work.
	He didn't tell us that he had been suspended from the ANC.

ADV TEE: Do you accept that there is a difference in the chain of command between MK and ANC?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That is correct.

ADV TEE: Do you accept that even if you are suspended from the ANC and this is disputed, even you are suspended from the ANC that does not have an effect on your position in MK?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I don't know about that, however Joe is the Regional Commander and the General Secretary of the Region, we thought he was still employed.

ADV TEE: And nothing at the time suggested otherwise, not so?  And nothing at the time suggested otherwise, not so?  That he was not employed?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I can't hear you well.  May you please repeat the question?

ADV TEE: What I am saying is that you thought that he was fully employed as a person inside the ANC, you had no idea of the suspension?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That is correct.

ADV TEE: Now I am saying to you the suspension as far as MK is concerned, you don't know whether that is relevant or irrelevant, you don't know, do you?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: When he got suspended from the organisation, I don't know the connection of that to his involvement in the MK, I only discovered after the attack that he was suspended from the ANC structures.

ADV TEE: Now in paragraph 29 you say that Joe showed you a list of three names.  Is that correct?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That is correct.

ADV TEE: Was the list written down on a piece of paper?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Joe showed us some documents in trying to prove that these people were enemy agents.

ADV TEE: So it wasn't a list of names, it was a set of documents, is that what you are saying?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I would say that was documents, containing the names of these people.

ADV TEE: But as I read what you said here, you said he showed you a list comprising three names.  Now a list is a small thing, itemised, so did he show you something itemised, a piece of paper itemised with three names?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I would say maybe it is a problem of terminology, these were documents and each document had somebody's name on it.
	This is what I am referring to as a list.

ADV TEE: I see.  And these documents they would have come from military Head Quarters, is that right?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: We found them from Joe.

ADV TEE: Yes, but where would these documents have come from, who produced the documents?  Who wrote them, who typed them?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Those documents were letters - some letters were written to the comrades by the police.  I don't know whether you get me.

ADV TEE: No, I don't.  Let's try again.  I want you to read paragraph 29 and while I read it.  The task was to eliminate the enemy agents in the organisation.  All right, let's stop there.
	Is it true to say that that order had come out before the name list came out?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Joe told us our task that was given to him by Head Quarters.  Those documents I think, were there to prove that those comrades were enemy agents.

ADV TEE: And now Mr Skosana what you say is and then Joe showed us a list comprising of three names.  Is that what you said?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Yes.

ADV TEE: Can you show us what the list looked like, can you demonstrate it, can you describe it?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just to interrupt.  I think we have heard that he has explained that perhaps the wrong use of terminology, we have gone through that and he said these names appeared on documents and I think you were at a point where you were asking this witness, who had issued those documents.
	I think maybe for us before we lose the picture, before it gets muddled up, maybe we should get an answer to that question.

ADV TEE: Mr Skosana, you've heard the Chairperson, what is the answer to that question?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Joe showed us the documents.

ADV TEE: Where did those documents come from, you were mentioning something about the police?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I don't know, maybe Joe can give a better explanation.  However, the way they were written it looked like they were coming from the police.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I interpose Mr Tee?  You've said that these were letters from the police?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: Yes, that is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now, were they on a letterhead from the South African Police, the documents that you saw?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: They had a stamp of the South African Police.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But they were not on a letterhead from the South African Police?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: No.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Tee, you may proceed.

ADV TEE: Did you mention this fact that these letters containing the names of Joe Shabangu, Jackson Tembo and Jack Modipani on these letterheads from the police, did you mention that in the trial?

SISI KHAMPEPE: That is not what he has said Mr Tee.  These letters were not on a letterhead from the South African Police, they had a stamp of the South African Police.

ADV TEE: Thank you Ma'am.  Did you mention about these letters with the stamp from the South African Police in the trial of the Nkuna brothers?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: That happened long ago, I can't remember everything.  I don't remember well.

ADV TEE: Do you recall that in the trial of the Nkuna brothers, you were cross-examined and it was put to you that in fact only one name had ever existed and that was of Shabangu?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: The only person we attacked was Joe Shabangu, but we had three people targeted.

ADV TEE: Now, you know that the Nkuna's have given evidence that there was only one person targeted, what is your comment?

STATEMENT OF MR SKOSANA HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A: I didn't hear much what they said earlier this morning, because I arrived early, so I won't say anything about that.

CHAIRPERSON: He knows you were not there, he is telling you that they say that only one person was targeted?