Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-26

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson.  Chairperson, I would request the Committee when I'm addressing the Committee to address the Committee in all the applications heard today because my argument will almost be the same in all these incidents.  Chairperson, I'm not intending to be long.
	Chairperson, my submission is that the applicants have complied with the requirements of Section 20, sub-section 1 and sub-section 2, that they were quite clearly acting on behalf of Apla a publicly known political organisation and liberation movement which was engaged in political struggle against the State at that time.  	
	Chairperson, I'm not intending to go to that section unknown to the Committee.  Chairperson, Pila Martin Dolo gave evidence before this Committee and also his affidavit spells out that he is from the Eastern Cape, Uitenhage and that it's clear that when he went there, Chairperson, it was not an area he knows, definitely when he went there he went there for a specific mission and that mission was to persecute the struggle and he has told the Committee what he had done in order to do that.  It's the same with Able Kgotlhe, though he is coming from Thaba Nchu which is not far from those areas as compared to Eastern Cape he has told the Committee that he was the Regional Commander of Apla and that he had instructions to seek and identify the target and sought approval where it is necessary and he has done so and in other instances he reported thereafter.
	Chairperson I know that there is this sticky question that the reason for the attack is because these people were White and one would come up with an argument and say, if then was the target of PAC and Apla were all White people, what was it the use of making a reconnaissance and to certain targets, policemen, not to just go and attack because you know that in any event even if you attack any white person you'll be within the scope or within the ambit of, within the policy of the organisation.
	Chairperson, my argument is that everything goes according to plan and priorities.  Even if Chairperson you are my enemy, if I don't want to act against you that particular point in moment, I wouldn't act against you, I'll act against whoever I wanted to act at that time but if it so happened that at that particular point in time you are in the way then happened to act against you, definitely I would say in any event you were also my enemy, in any event you were one of my targets though at that particular point in time you were not my target.
Chairperson, the Committee, I take it has got the submission of the PAC with regard to it's policy towards White people.  Chairperson, if I may quote in that document?  In that document, Chairperson, they use the quotation of Sobukwe which happened to be also in the affidavit of Luvuyo Kuluman which is the basis of their argument.  Chairperson, in that quotation which has been quoted in full in the affidavit of Luvuyo Kuluman was taken from this book, Pan Africanist Congress of Azania, by Robert Sobukwe, all his speeches and his trials are in this book.  It was extracted from here by the PAC and in that he was answering questions regarding the policy of PAC towards Whites and after that quotation he was asked another question.  That quotation was answering a question 
"but are you anti-White or not?"
 and his answer was that, Chairperson :
"What is meant by anti-Whitism, is it not merely an emotional term without a precise signification.  Let me put it in this way, in every struggle whether National or class, the masses do not fight in an abstraction, they do not hate oppression or capitalism, they concretise these and hate the oppressor."
Chairperson, I would quote it as a whole but there the analogy of the sjambok that it's a plain dishonesty to say "I hate the sjambok and not the one who wields it"  It is in that context that the PAC policy was formulated against Whites, that some would say the enemy is apartheid but to them they say that apartheid is the manifestation of something.  People put into practice the apartheid and the people who put so happened that are White people and as such, that is why they were regarded as targets.
	The question goes further. 
" Do you regard all Whites as oppressors?"
 Which was one of the questions which was posed to the applicants.
"That is not true that somewhere on the side of the liberation movement, the answer was that we regard them all as shareholders in the South African oppressors company, there are Whites of course who are intellectually converted to our cause but because of their position materially, they cannot fully identify themselves with the struggle of the African people.  They want safeguards and check points all along the way with the result that the struggle of the people is blunted, stultified and crushed."
The second question was:
"Do you include White leftists in your indictment?"
Sobukwe:
"There are none and there have never been in any South Africa, White or Black, all we have are ...(indistinct), in fact like Chris Hani to communism has been extremely unfortunate in it's choice of representatives."
Chairperson, what I'm trying to get at it that the submission that was forwarded by the PAC to the Honourable Committee was extracted from there so from what was given by the applicants in evidence, it's clear that they acted within the policy of the PAC.  They did not deviate an inch from that policy, they acted according to that and as such they were taking their orders, of course, from the Director of Operations to whom they were reporting, before and after the operation and in all the instances he approved of that.
	Chairperson, I would like also to add to Pila Dolo, Chairperson, that it's clear in his application that he has been involved in many operations which this one was one of those and he has been, in some of these, has been granted amnesty with regard to other applications which of course were the ones still remaining, the Eikenhof incident.
	Chairperson, it's clear in all this that he has not acted in any way in all his operations that he did not act for personal gain, he acted in pursuance of the struggle and according to his orders he has been given to persecute the struggle.  Therefore Chairperson, it's my humble submission that the three applicants complied with the requirements of the Act and that they should be granted amnesty as applied.
	Chairperson, I wouldn't like to dwell much unless the Committee has any questions which they want to pose and I'll be ready to take them.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.  Can you just perhaps deal with the requirement of full disclosure, especially in the light of the evidence that was given by Mrs Pienaar?