Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-18

JONES JUDA MDLULI: Throughout my service at the police station or even before I've never been a supporter of the IFP.

MR MAPOMA: Before you became a policeman were you supporting any political organisation?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: Yes I supported the ANC.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, so when did you join the police?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: In 1981 I joined the South African Police then and in 1984 I wanted to work in the department of the finger printing unit.  I then made a request to be moved there but because of discrimination then I was not accepted.  I then heard of the KwaZulu Police where I met somebody who was in charge of the finger printing department.  That person then requested me to go work in his section.  I was then made to fill in a pro-forma form which released me into the KwaZulu Police.

MR MAPOMA: And in 1981 the ANC was a banned organisation and in fact it was known by the police force then as an organisation of the terrorists, you are aware of that, aren't you?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: Yes I'm aware of it.

MR MAPOMA: Yet that was the organisation you were supporting when you went to join the police, that's what you want to tell this Committee now?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: I will explain that.  When I joined the police it was after my schooling at Gugulabasha.  That school is in Dusoma, very close to KwaMashu.  I and other pupils from that school and neighbouring school we supported the UDF at the time which I think was a branch of the ANC.  When I joined the police in 1991 you made to take an oath and you were informed that if you are a police officer you should be apolitical so that you are able to protect the community fairly.  That is what was on my mind when I went to college and when I returned from the college that was also on my mind.  When I was with the KwaZulu Police in 1984 I arrived there in April.  I was told then that when you joined the KwaZulu Police you should become a member of the IFP and also that the police force is under the command of Mangosutho Buthelezi who was the Minister of Police and an IFP Chairperson there.  I then attempted to make an application to return to the SAP because that was against my policies.  That application was turned down in Ulundi.  I went to the police commissioner at C R Swart to explain my problems.  He said he would accept me provided Ulundi gives me permission to do so.  When I returned to Ulundi they refused, they said I cannot go back to the South African Police.  I then decided that I shall continue working then and then I had an idea that my colleagues were members of an organisation that I opposed therefore I felt it was time for me to do whatever I could to support that organisation which I supported and that which was supported by my family and my friends and neighbours.  Therefore I continued being an ANC supporter although I was working in an environment which was dominated by the IFP.

MR MAPOMA: So you're saying you started being a KwaZulu Police in 1984?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Okay, it is in 1984 when you were told that if you are KwaZulu Police you're supposed to support Inkatha?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Okay.  Now on this day when you planned this robbery what were you intending to rob actually?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: We wanted to acquire firearms for the reason I stated previously that is to assist defence units who protected our families, our friends in the township who were under attack from the IFP from Lindelani and Richmond Farm and they would do this with the assistance and collusion of the KwaZulu Police, such police whom I knew.  Sometimes things would happen even in front of me.

MR MAPOMA: During your service as a policeman, nine years service, I suppose you knew where the storeroom with the service firearms was, is it not so?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: That is correct, I did know.

MR MAPOMA: And it has never been your plan to rob the firearms from the storeroom of the police service weapons, is that so?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: After nine years of service in the police I had knowledge of how well guarded those firearms were.

MR MAPOMA: No, no, Mr Mdluli, just answer my question.  My question is very clear and it just needs a very simple answer.  I am asking you when you were planning to rob firearms, it never came to your plans that you had to go and rob from the storeroom.  I just want yes or no.

JONES JUDA MDLULI: No.

MR MAPOMA: Okay.  And what was happening at that shop where you went to rob?  What was actually happening there?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: It was a pension payout point.

MR MAPOMA: And you were aware that was what was going on there?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: Yes I knew very well.

MR MAPOMA: And you were aware that the van which keeps money is escorted by police?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: Yes I knew that.

MR MAPOMA: I see and you were aware when you took the trunk that that is the trunk which is supposed to be carrying money?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: No, we knew that the money was kept in briefcases.  In all police stations trunks are used to store firearms or ammunition.

MR MAPOMA: I see.  You know of no trunk which was used to carry money?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: No trunk is used to store money.

MR MAPOMA: I see.  I see.  Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Has the Panel got any questions?

ADV SANDI: Yes.  Tell me, the people responsible for paying out pension monies, where were they when they came back?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: When we arrived those people were inside the shop where we didn't even go.

ADV SANDI: How did it go about before this incident, how exactly did you go about supporting the ANC as you've said you were a supporter of the ANC?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: I explained before that I supported the ANC since my childhood until I joined the police service.  When I was in the KwaZulu Police I became firm in my support in the ANC to render assistance to my community, my family and friends who were under attack and being killed by the IFP and KwaZulu Police.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Tell me did you deliberate with anybody in the ANC about this robbery?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: Yes Ugunulego was an ANC person who worked with the different units and they protected the community of peace action and Bheki who arrived later also was part of the discussions.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you know the ANC chairman of the branch of the ANC in that area?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: No I did not know the chairman, the people I had contact with were in the lower structures of the ANC, that is the foot soldiers who protected the township.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Chair.  By launching this attack at this particular place where you did were you not putting the lives of pensioners in danger?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: Our plan was to direct ourselves at the police who were as well trained as we were.  We knew that if you point a firearm at a trained police officer it is difficult for that person to fight back.  Nonetheless we were surprised to encounter police officers who were prepared to fight back and we were then forced to shoot.

ADV SANDI: That police officer you shot on the head, why did you shoot him on the head?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: I shot him at the side of his head that is above the ear if I'm not mistaken.

ADV SANDI: Why did you do that, was it your intention to kill him?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: The intention was not to kill him but what caused all that was that when I pointed my firearm at him and instructed him to put down his weapon he fought back, he tried to turn around and he had a HFC in his possession.  Also I heard a gun going off and I was not sure who was firing so to be safe I felt that I should at that person who was directly in front of me because he was also fighting.

ADV SANDI: If you had found money in that truck would you have taken it?