Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-03

ADV STEENKAMP: And the actions for which you are applying for amnesty for, did he give you instructions to be engaged in these actions as well, or did he authorise these actions?

MR RADEBE: I did not out of my own volition do this, or authorise myself to act the way I did.  But the Committee must be clear about one thing, that the situation that prevailed at the time in Tokoza, there are some place, especially when being attacked, there would be no time to wait upon the commander or instruction.  You would have to act and use your own discretion and counteract the situation.  You would have to decide there and then to do something without any issuing of an order whatsoever.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP

ADV GCABASHE: I have no questions thanks.

MR SIBANYONI: On page two, paragraph 7, of your affidavit you are saying,
"...There are several other incidents where I carried a firearm and fired shots in defence of our community and property."
Were any people injured or murdered during those other several incidents?

MR RADEBE: Yes.  I think this I must say it in black and white, there are people who sustained injuries or died for that matter.  Referring to paragraph 7 of the affidavit, I think there I'm trying to explain about the situation that prevailed during the day of the funeral of Sam Ntuli, where many people were killed, and where we were called as one of the units that people will be going to, or people attended Sam Ntuli's funeral were being killed and attacked from the taxi ranks towards the inner part of the area.
	Once you were seen wearing a T-shirt bearing ANC colours you will be attack for that.  And there were kombis that were shown by people around.  Those were the kombis that were attacking the people attending the funeral.  And we started then shooting at such people who were attacking.  Now on that very day many people sustained injuries and many were killed.  So I'm not in a position to say as to exactly how many did I kill or how many did I injure, but because of the situation that prevailed I am certain of the fact that people were injured and people died.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: The Caspir that was stolen.  Why was it stolen?

MR RADEBE: Mr Chair, that Caspir we had to take.  Number one, we were highly infuriated because during the day we were not able to attack back the attackers, IFP that is, because the very same stability Caspirs were escorting these IFP people to attack the community.  Now the IFP was well protected by the police, and they had within their, on their possessions firearms, numerous of them.  Now we had no-one to be on our side, or on our side, to reinforce us or to work hand in hand with us as Inkatha had police on their side as well as the soldiers.
	Now the way we viewed the police were, was in such a way that they were working hand in hand with Inkatha attacking the community.

CHAIRPERSON: And as I understand your evidence, is that broadly speaking the fighting was taking place between members of the, who were attached, to the IFP or supported the IFP, as against people who were members or associates of the ANC.

MR RADEBE: Please may you repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Broadly speaking the fights that were occurring in the area, the battles, were being fought by members or supporters of the IFP as against members or supporters of the ANC, and their allies I suppose.

MR RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.  The IFP members were attacking the leaders and the followers of ANC as well as the community at large, because there were people who were harassed yet not politically affiliated to any of the organisations.  And by the same token there were people that were killed from the IFP side who were not necessarily IFP members, but sustained injuries or were caught in this fire.

CHAIRPERSON: And one last question.  During this attack on the van of Bishop Khumalo, did you also shoot?

MR RADEBE: Please repeat the last part of your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you also actively participate in the attack by shooting or doing whatever else?

MR RADEBE: Yes, I took part.  I shot as well.

CHAIRPERSON: And that attack was the result of your order?

MR RADEBE: As I've already explained that, as the community we had, even the community, the other part of the community, had fired shots and we were not aware about the fact that Khumalo was there with his gang shooting and attacking.  So it was not my decision as such that we should kill but it was the decision that was taken by the unit or the SDU members that I was in their company that we should now attack.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you had to give authority for that attack, not so?  I'll tell you why I'm asking.  Because in your supplementary affidavit, paragraph 3.1, you there say, that you instructed an attack on the bakkie belonging to Bishop Khumalo.

MR RADEBE: Yes I will say that I did issue that instruction, but as I've already explained previously that the community was running and rushing to us to inform us that there was an attack that was going on, and I uttered such words as, "let's go back, let's go."  So obviously that was, that formed a counter attack.  But we took it as a group

CHAIRPERSON: Now, this Caspir that you took also, was it taken purely for the purposes of facilitating the defence of people?

MR RADEBE: I may agree with you.  In that we were defending the community.  You see the police plus the IFP people were coming to attack during the day, but we're not, or we're unable to retaliate or to defend ourselves at the time.  But now at that time we deemed it fit for us to go now and attack.

CHAIRPERSON: In short and in plain language, it was not taken for the purpose of running a taxi business, but it was taken for the purpose of progressing your struggle.

MR RADEBE: First of all it was at night, people were asleep and we were ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe listen to the question.  You've repeated yourself on a number of occasions.  I just want to get something straight here for the purposes of our decision.  That Caspir was not taken from the police after they were shot for the purpose of running something for somebody's private business, but it was taken to facilitate your struggle.

MR RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko have you got any questions?

MR SIBEKO: None thanks, Mr Chairman.
Mr Chairman this is the only application that I had for today.  May I be excused for now?  I'd like

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman the other matters that I have are purely chamber matters.  I therefore request that I be excused.

CHAIRPERSON: In the circumstances you are then excused.  Mr Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman I hate to ask for an adjournment, but I understand Mr Lawly Shane just gave me a request that needs another five minutes to prepare and in the circumstances I would like to ask that we make, if it's possible to adjourn for two or three minutes Mr Chairman.  I can just find out what ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Where is he?

ADV STEENKAMP: ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Well we'll adjourn and you can call us as soon as he's ready.
WITNESS EXCUSED