Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-06

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Ja, that's why I drew up an operation plan.  I mean the ...[intervention]

MR PRIOR: I need to understand what you mindset was and it's important for the Committee to understand.  Was the intention simply to destroy or wipe out every living person on that property on that evening?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, the intention was to inflict maximum loses, to kill as many people as we possibly could.  Now to say we could kill or destroy everybody in the party, I don't think it would make logic otherwise we would have organised to get, let me say, LMG's or RPG's.  I mean, it was not possible.

MR PRIOR: Alright.  So I understand from that the operation was launched to cause the maximum loss of life and damage as you could with the armaments that you had?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And to just clarify further, if you wanted to destroy the entire place you would have had much heavier weaponry or armaments, is that what you're explaining?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Now the armament use would correspond with the aim of the operation.  For instance you couldn't, you wouldn't find an APLA unit attacking a police patrolled van by knives.

MR PRIOR: Alright.  What would use if they attack a police patrol van?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Ja, they would have to look for a weapon that would be effective in that regard.

MR PRIOR: Like what, give us an example?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Like even and R4 could be used.

MR PRIOR: R4.  Wouldn't an R4 be sufficient?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: We could even use a 9mm pistol, it depends how do we plan it.

MR PRIOR: Okay.  And against civilians sitting eating a Christmas dinner, what would be proportionate or what would be the adequate weapon there?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay.  Against military trained civilians we could use any weapon, even an assault rifle.

MR PRIOR: And a handgrenade?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes, even a bomb shell if we've got.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Prior.
	Mr Xundu, can you explain a bit about what you've just said, did you say against militarily trained civilians you could use any ...[intervention]

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes please.

ADV SANDI: Could you explain that?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay.  The white community in this country are the one people I have never considered as civilians, pure civilians, in the true sense that I could just point at that old man there and find out that he doesn't know anything, absolutely nothing or anything about a weapon.
	The militarisation of the white community was something which was, let me say, legalised or institutionalised, I don't know what is the appropriate word there, but the true conception for instance, we know every white adult man at the age of 18 or above have undergone military training and right from there you ...[indistinct] the distinction between the African people and the white community in terms of training.
	You can easily refer to the African people as civilians because you will not attach anything that is military but with the white community it is a different concern, it's a different situation.  They have undergone military training and after having undergone military training they are part and parcel of ...[end of tape] 
	...[inaudible] explain my point.  Even before they are conscripted there was a cadet system and there is still a cadet system only for white persons in this country.

MR PRIOR: Cadets?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Cadets.   You see I've seen those boys, they can shoot perhaps more than many of the soldiers you can get in the national defence force, in the SAPS.  They can shoot, they have been shooting.  Now when they reach that level of being conscripted they quite know everything.

MR PRIOR: Alright.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: So I mean, how do you refer to those people as being civilians?

MR PRIOR: Yes, I want to just point out to you that that may be a dangerous generalisation but certainly that seems to be your perception of the situation.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: But you are free to challenge it.

MR PRIOR: Yes.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: But what - I'm laying down fact.  The commanding system is still in place, it was in place, it's history.  The cadet system was in place, that's history and it stayed in place.

MR PRIOR: You see ...[intervention]

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: The white children at primary school, they know the difference between an R4 rifle, an R5 rifle, 9mm pistol an Uzzi.  Something that our people do not even have an idea.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, can I just ask you where you got that information from, that every white child at primary school level had, knew about the difference between an R1 or an Uzzi or a 9mm pistol, where did you get that information from?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I'm working in the national defence force.

MR PRIOR: Now?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Now.  And I'm SO2 training there, now.

MR PRIOR: Alright, I don't want to engage in a debate with you about that, we're talking about the situation in 1992 but I accept your answer.  You see, with the generalisation that every white person, and particularly, I'm coming back to the King William's Town Golf Club, do you concede that there were possibly many people there that did not have military training, that were not members of a commando, that had not had cadets at school?  Or does your perception exclude that possibility?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: No, because I did converse with them at length, quite many of them, while I was still bagsman and paid 50c.  I mean I could talk to them ...[intervention]

MR LAX: When you say, excuse me?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Ja?

MR LAX: You say, when you were what sorry?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, that might be military language but bagsmen, those boys carrying the golf kit.

MR LAX: Okay, a caddie?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Caddie.  So I did converse with a lot of them.  I mean, when we were there with comrade Xumiso this day he used to take this side and I take the far and then after that we ...[indistinct] that we have received.
	That day he takes this and I take the other end, ...[indistinct] so we have talked to them.  They have related their military, I mean experiences.

MR PRIOR: So part of your intelligence gathering was enquiring from members who played or people who played at the gold regarding their military experience, is that correct?  It was one of the information gathering exercises that you conducted, is that what you're telling this Committee?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: That is one of the information we received.

MR PRIOR: Alright.  The other bit of information, did you know that there was - you said there was the Nationalist Party member, Mr Radu, his VIP core with security policemen and army officers, did your intelligence gathering indicate that any other people would be there at the club on that evening, other than military or security personnel?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: From the proud members of the golf club with whom we were talking, they told us who was going to be there and I can only remember, in their words, talking about senior citizens.
	They talked about the members of, hiring members of the military, hiring members of the security forces, the SAP.  Okay, like for instance there was a certain mention of a certain Lieutenant Colonel, I've just forgotten the name sorry.

MR PRIOR: Yes.