Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-23

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: In that case I could not use my own discretion. It would have been their discretion to use in the determination of the target.

CHAIRPERSON: You referred (...intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: Might I just add to what the Chairperson has asked you? He asked you whether or not you had any discretion and you answered a question of mine that you were part of a core group which made decisions. What was the nature of discussion when as a core group you decided on the target?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I was a member of the core group but I did not participate in the decision making. We were only part of the core group when they handed over the instructions to us and told us who would be the target.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you have to be present in the group?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I would have been one of the persons who would be shooting.

CHAIRPERSON: Not the group, the core group?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: The most of us were called together in the core group and given instructions that we would shoot these people.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why did you have to be there if there was no major role for you within the decision making?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Who would they have issued the instructions to if I had not been present. I had to attend the group.

CHAIRPERSON: But I am referring to the core group which made the decisions and then conveyed these decisions to the rest of the people present.

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: The core group did not take the decisions. Decisions were made by Commandant Martin and Kloppers. They called us into the group and told us who our target was and that Martin would fire a shot to signal to us when the shooting would begin. We were not part of the discussion process we were merely given instructions.

MR MALAN: Can you explain to me why they would only call out a core group to convey these decisions to because afterwards the rest of the group would form a line?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Mr Diedericks did not have a weapon on him that night so it would have been useless to call him into the core group. Mr Meiring was standing behind the Sentra and watching the road and he would have apprehended people who were trying to run away. Well he had his instructions. Myself and Etienne Visser, Mr Badenhorst were conveyed instructions of who would be shot because we had the weapons.

MR MALAN: But isn't it true that everyone had a weapon except Mr Diedericks?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is true it was only Mr Diedericks that did not have a firearm. Mr Meiring behind the Sentra was watching the road to Randfontein.

MR MALAN: After the core group was told who the target was how were the others notified who they must shoot?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Mr Chairperson everyone in the group did shoot.

MR MALAN: Could you please explain to me what the difference is between the core group and those people who shot?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I did not use the word core group. They were not the brain behind the story. We were merely called to a group where we received instructions to fire at these people.

MR MALAN: It is very difficult for me to understand that a small group is called out and you have referred to a group, and the comprehension there of is that it was not everybody who was being called together. And a decision was conveyed. But the others were not called in. You said one was standing at the Sentra and you were merely a few steps away from the Sentra where the group was being called together. I am simply asking you. I am asking you a question.

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I do not know why they called us to a small group.

MR MALAN: But there they told you who the target was and who you had to fire at.

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And were any other members notified of the target, those that had not attended the small group?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: After we had been given instructions we went ahead with the firing. I do not who else was notified.

MR MALAN: Were you not set up in a line? All of you?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Not all. As I have explained Diedericks was standing to one side because he did not have a firearm. Mr Meiring was standing to another side because he had to watch the road.

MR MALAN: But he also fired?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: No he did not fire.

MR MALAN: With your permission I would just like to return to another aspect you have testified this morning. The 13 year old child did not appear to be that young to you. You said that you had seen all of them and he did not look that young?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: No he did not.

MR MALAN: You looked at everyone and you sure that you saw him and he did not appear to be that young?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: My task was to pull the vehicles over and to search the boots. I did not look at the people intensively and ask them how old they were or try to determine how old they were.

MR MALAN: I am not asking what you did not do. I just want you to answer me regarding what you did. You said that you looked at the people?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Yes I looked in the general direction of the people.

MR MALAN: You saw that there was a younger person?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: No.

MR MALAN: But he did not appear to be that young, could you just explain that to me that a 13 year old child did appear to be that young?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Chairperson it was night time, it was very dark, they were not all clearly visible and it was not my task to look at the people. I had to search the vehicles and that is what I did.

MR MALAN: But why are you testifying about things which you did not see? Why are you testifying about the 13 year old child which you saw but did not appear to be that young?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Chairperson I did not testify regarding the 13 year old child. You merely asked me.

MR MALAN: But you answered that question.

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I told you that he was there but there was no person among those who I regarded that was that young.

MR MALAN: Did you not testify or hear anything about that in the court proceedings?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I did not see anything like that.

MR MALAN: You were in court, there was testimony in court did you listen to the testimony delivered when you were charged?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Yes I did.

MR MALAN: Did you hear that they were talking about the children who were in the motor vehicles?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Yes they did mention the children but I myself did not see the children.

MR MALAN: Did you hear that they mention these children, that they mention the age of these children? Did you hear in court that they testified that there was a 13 year old and 9 year old child in their group? That was testified before you in court.

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I must have heard it.

MR MALAN: And you still do not know it. You are simply accepting my word?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: But then I would have to accept the word of the plaintiffs. If I did not see it I cannot testify regarding it.

MR MALAN: You heard that there was a 9 year old child involved in the court?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I heard it after the time.

MR MALAN: Or did you say that you must have heard it?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I must have heard it. If it was said in court I must have heard it.

MR MALAN: No further questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Finally you referred to a speech which you say was made by Mr Terreblanche, I think you said the 7th of March. I am not sure which year, you know which?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: 7th of April.

CHAIRPERSON: 199?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: This year it was in 1998.

CHAIRPERSON: In which he said he accepted responsibility for?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is correct he said that he was accepting the accountability for the acts of terror, the bomb explosions and so forth.

CHAIRPERSON: Just say it again?