Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-26

MR STRYDOM: Did Mr Themba Khosa address a meeting on the 18th of the 19th of June 1992?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: On the 18th I cannot remember seeing him addressing a meeting, I only remember on the 19th he addressed a meeting.

MR STRYDOM: Did you attend that meeting?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I did attend the meeting.

MR STRYDOM: Did Mr Khosa give any instructions in regard to the burning of loot or bloody clothes?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: He never gave that instruction, it's myself who issued that instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was this?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: At Kwamadala hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you are the one who issued the order that items be burnt, I'm asking you at what stage was this?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: It was in the morning of the 18th.  Damarra gave me the instruction to tell the people to burn the goods that were taken from Boipatong and that is what I did.

CHAIRPERSON: And how did you do this?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I went through the left-hand side.  I was shouting and telling the people that if someone brought something from Boipatong, that should be burnt.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know the policeman that was at the hearing the other day, Peens?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, I saw him for the very first time here on Friday.  I saw them, the two of them for the first time on Friday.

MR STRYDOM: You also refer then to Rooikop, is that right?

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat the question?

MR STRYDOM: You also refer to the other policeman, his surname is Greeff but his nickname is Rooikop?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: It's what I heard.  As he was standing here, I heard that he was Rooikop, but I do not know him.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person by the name of Andries Matanzima Nosenga?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I know him, I know Matanzima.

MR STRYDOM: When was the first time for you to meet this person?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Though I cannot remember well, but that was after the attack, months after the attack.

MR STRYDOM: When were you arrested for the Boipatong incident?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I cannot remember the month but I was the last person to be arrested.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

MS PRETORIUS: I have not questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

MR DA SILVA: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Miss Tanzer?

MS TANZER: You say that you met Mr Nosenga after the attack on Boipatong, what was noticeable about Mr Nosenga that you remember him?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: The reason for me to remember Matanzima, we were sitting at the hostel playing some game called Mlabalala, a guy called Vusi and Spongulwana.  They were washing the cars and they said there was a young man who was speaking Sotho, and I enquired what is it that he was saying there.
	They called us to come and listen to him.  We went to that place.  When we arrived there they communicated in Sotho with him.  They later interpreted to us, they told us that he said he was sent there by the ANC to enquire as how to plant the bombs inside the hostel ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Would you please just slow down so that we can make some notes.  What are the names of these boys that you say came to you?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: It was Vusi and Spongulwana.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Myself and the others took him from that place ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, I didn't catch the name of the person, you said someone and others?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Which person?

MR LAX: Maybe you said I, it just cut off on the interpretation.  Just repeat your answer please.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I said two gentlemen came, Vusi and Pongulwana.  They came as we were playing a game.  They came to tell us that there was a young man from the township who was there at the place where the two gentlemen were washing the cars.
	We asked them what was he saying, what was it that the young man was saying.  They did not tell us anything but they said we must come with them to listen to this gentleman.  
	We went to that place and they asked him questions in Sotho and they later interpreted to us because we did not understand the Sotho language.  He said he was sent by the African National Congress to come and inspect the place inside the hostel, as to how he can plant the bombs.
	We later took him - we then took him to the IFP Committee.  We handed them over to that committee.  They communicated with him and we left him there.  After some time we heard that he admitted to everything that was said by the two gentlemen.  
	Fortunately he came at a time where there was going to be a conference in Ulundi.  He was then taken - the people who were going to the conference took him with to Ulundi to the conference.  The matters was reported, the others were told about him.  I was not there at that conference.
	They brought him back again.  He stayed there inside the hostel.  As to when did he leave the hostel I do not know.  He was still young at the time and when I saw him here he was a bit older.

CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned that you took him to the committee of the IFP in the hostel.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who in particular did you take him to?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: It was Thembankosi Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS TANZER: To you your knowledge, Mr Dlamini, was Mr Nosenga only to talk Sotho, was he unable to communicate with yourselves?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MS TANZER: Well I put it to you that his Zulu is as good as your Zulu, that he will give evidence in Zulu and that he's not even a Sotho-speaking person.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I don't know about that, you know about that.  All I know is that he was speaking Sotho.

MS TANZER: Are you perhaps not mixing up Mr Nosenga with somebody else?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No.  I can see clearly and my mind works very well.  I know that he is the person.

MS TANZER: Well what do you say about the fact that he can talk Zulu so fluently, that in fact he's communicating with the interpreters in Zulu and not in Sotho?

CHAIRPERSON: Well he's just answered you and he says he is not aware that he can speak Zulu as good as he does.

MS TANZER: Mr Dlamini, you've heard the evidence of your co-applicants so far, is that correct?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MS TANZER: You've been present throughout these proceedings, is that correct?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, it's only on the 18th where I was not present.

MS TANZER: You've heard me put Mr Nosenga's version to the other co-applicants regarding the events that led to the attack and the attack itself, is that correct?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I heard you.

MS TANZER: Do you stand then by your denial that Mr Nosenga resided at the hostel prior to the attack and took, and participated in the attack on the night of the 17th of June?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I deny that.

MS TANZER: So it is not necessary for me to put to you Mr Nosenga's version, you remember the version and you deny it in its entirety, is that correct?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MS TANZER: Can you tell me, what motive would you impugn upon Mr Nosenga for placing himself at the hostel when he was not at the hostel or for participating in the attack, when you claim he did not?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I think this person is lying.  He is a bit confused because of the sentence that he is serving.  He's saying things that did not happen.

MS TANZER: I put it to you that insofar as Mr Nosenga's evidence contradicts yours, you are the person who is lying and Mr Nosenga is being open and honest with this Committee.