Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-08

CHAIRPERSON: Precisely, so you knew long before this incident, that there was firearms to be obtained there in that house, not so?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, that is correct, his name was on the list.

CHAIRPERSON: On the list of what?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: The list of places that would be attacked, where operations would be carried out.

CHAIRPERSON: Hit list?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, hit list.

CHAIRPERSON: There's so many hit lists in this country.  Anyway, so when these plans came you provided the information for Duma to consider and ultimately he gave you the order to go on a reconnaissance trip to look at this house and the prospects of obtaining these firearms.  You did so, you went back and he finally gave you the ultimate order to go and obtain these firearms within the then policy of the Pan Africanist Congress, which included killing white people.

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I want you to understand this.  First of all when I moved from Transkei I was handed over to Mr Duma's hands and I was there actually to carry out operations and Mbulelo Dlamini instructed me to do so.  But Tamsanqa gave me three days to observe the target.  	I went to town reconnoitred and attacked this target and I saw this white man.  I had last seen this man in 1983 or 1984 and my mother was working for him.  I thought that - I remembered that he had some guns and I realised that he was still staying alone and I took a decision but I went back to tell Tamsanqa Duma on the third day.
	I told him that I had observed the target and it's the right target and Tamsanqa Duma told me to go on with the operation to attack that target.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV SANDI: You've mentioned something about a hit list, who compiled this list?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: This hit list was mine.  That was my hit list because I went there knowing very well that there are places that I knew in the place that would be attacked.  I handed over to Mr Tamsanqa Duma.

ADV SANDI: Franciscato was in this list, what other targets were in the list?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: No, he was not in that list.  He was not yet there in that list because I was not sure about him at the time when I had just arrived from Transkei.  I only included him in the list after observing, after realising that he was still around then I later included him in the list.  We used to have that type of a list when we were about to carry out a certain operation.

ADV SANDI: What was contained in the list?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: The names of the places that would be attacked.

ADV SANDI: What places were those?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Places like Mr Franciscato's place and other places that would be attacked in the future.

ADV SANDI: I notice from the bundle of documents we have before us that you have a number of - have you ever been convicted before, other than the offence for which you're now sitting in prison?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, just before joining PAC I was once arrested.  I was once convicted before I joined PAC.

ADV SANDI: Is it true that from 1983 to 1990 you were involved in a series of crimes ranging from theft, housebreaking and so on?  1983 to 1990?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: What is the difference ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: It's in fact 10 instances of dishonesty, housebreaking, theft, possession of stolen goods, yes.

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: At the time I was not yet a full member of PAC, therefore I repented after joining PAC and I followed the correct path.
	I would request the Committee not to talk about that.  I am a different person now, I'm no longer doing those things.  I changed when I joined PAC and a person can change.  I never knew that I would be an APLA
members, I did not even know that I would be church-goer.  That is about a change of human being.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't doubt, maybe you can change, we don't disagree you could have changed but we will ask you questions as we deem fit because you've made the application and we need to find out whether the application is worthy of being granted.  Do you understand?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: And if it includes investigating your troubled past then that is what we must do, not so?  Do you understand?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: So will you answer the question is you haven't answered it the way you wanted to?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I have answered that question according to my other cases.

ADV DE JAGER: You joined the PAC in 1989 and you've just told us that then you reformed, after joining the PAC.

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I joined in 1989.  I did not know everything at the time about the rules of PAC, I was still learning about it up to 1990.  I was still getting political education because it's not a question of joining today and getting to know everything, you've got to attend meetings and get political education.  I was so lazy to attend such things, only to find out that was actually detrimental to me because I did not attend those meetings.
	Until such time I attended the meetings in 1990 and decided now with all my heart to be a member of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: And you reformed?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, I reformed after that.

CHAIRPERSON: Then how do you explain your conviction and sentence of the 9th of June 1993 for housebreaking with intent to steal and theft valued R11 000-odd?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: How do I reconcile the two, that case and the one I'm here for?

CHAIRPERSON: No, how do you reconcile your reformation in 1990 when you joined the PAC and your conviction in 1993, June?  You say you changed, you became a good person, you left all these bad things from 1990 when you joined the PAC but yet you are convicted for housebreaking with intent to steal and theft of clothing estimated at about R11 000.  You received an effective 15 months imprisonment for that.

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I remember that incident but what happened, I was arrested because I harboured stolen property.  I was accused by the police that I'm the one who did that.  They sentenced me for 15 months.  I couldn't do otherwise because I was in the hands of the police.  They just stated that and sentenced me and I was innocent.  They sentenced me because I kept those stolen property in my place.  The police did not believe because before I used to be a troublemaker.

CHAIRPERSON: You had this stolen property with you although you never stole it yourself, is that what you are saying?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were in possession of stolen clothing to the value of R11 000 at the time of your arrest?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: I was arrested and that clothing was in the house, the were in the room.  The police got information and they went to my place and got that clothing.

CHAIRPERSON: You see why we asking or I'm asking these questions, you've had a terrible criminal past, do you understand?  Involving housebreaking and getting into places where you should not be and stealing from people where you violated the sanctity of the homestead, is that not so?  And you say that by 1990 you reformed because you were being taught by the principles of the Pan Africanist Congress, not so?  That's what you say?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you went to steal these firearms it was a similar thing you did, to go into a person's house and violate the safety of his house, not so?  Yet you say that is based on political considerations, which may be so but we need to check that, that is why we are asking you all these questions about your previous convictions.  Do you understand?  It's not that we're trying to catch you out.

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, I understand, Sir.

ADV SANDI: Mbulelo Dlamini and Tamsanqa Duma, were they aware of your previous convictions, your long record of crimes of theft, housebreaking and so on?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: No, they were not aware of such things.