Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-19

MR BERGER: Thank you.  Mr Mkhize, how many days before the attack on Boipatong, did you make the public announcement that there was to be an attack on Boipatong, without giving the date?  How many days before the actual attack, did you make that public announcement that Boipatong was going to be attacked?

MR MKHIZE: I mentioned before that I have forgotten what time lapsed before the actual date.

MR BERGER: Approximately how many days?  Three days, a week?

MR MKHIZE: It could have been a week or more.

MR BERGER: You have told the Committee that your immediate superior, Vanana Zulu, specifically told you not to launch an attack on Boipatong, and yet you say that you had authority to launch the attack on Boipatong.  From where or from whom did you get that authority?

MR MKHIZE: I did say that I had the authority because the Prince was not present.

MR BERGER: No, the Prince had told you that when he is not there, you are not to launch an attack on Boipatong, correct?

MR MKHIZE: The Prince said we should wait.  He did not specifically tell us not to launch an attack in his absence.

MR BERGER: He said you should wait before you launched an attack, wait for him to come back.  My question remains from whom or from where do you say you had authority to launch an attack?

MR MKHIZE: What I am saying to you is that the Prince was absent, he had gone home and therefore I had that authority to launch an attack.  He did not issue an instruction that we should not attack in his absence.

MR BERGER: According to you, Mtwana Zulu said that you should allow him to speak to the residents of Boipatong, that there should not be an attack, that was your evidence?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: So who gave you the authority to launch that attack?

MR MKHIZE: No one.  I took it upon myself, because people were dying continuously.

MR BERGER: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mkhize, you may step down.  Before you return to your seat, because would be rising shortly, there are a couple of matters that we have to deal with.
	Firstly Mlupeki Tshabangu and Sipho Buthelezi, you were not present at these hearings when we resumed yesterday, is that right?  Would you please come forward and speak next to the microphone.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR BUTHELEZI: I am Sipho Buthelezi.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not present yesterday when the matter resumed?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the reason for that?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was actually waiting for the people who normally transport us to the venue, to pick me up.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the only reason?  Do you understand English or do you want me to speak in Zulu?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was prevented from arriving here yesterday by the fact that I was waiting for the people who normally pick us up and they did not arrive.
	One other reason is that I did not have money so that I could travel on my own.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was supposed to bring you here?

MR BUTHELEZI: I am referring to the two white persons.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you in custody?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tshabangu, you were not here when we resumed yesterday?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the reason?

MR TSHABANGU: There was a communication problem.  On the last day of the previous sitting, I had requested at the previous hearing that I should be contacted by the people who are my co-applicants and I could not contact them telephonically.
	On Monday morning I assumed that the people who normally pick us up, would come for me, but they did not arrive.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, you are the applicant, both of you are the applicants in this matter.  You have the obligation to ensure that you are here so that your application can be heard.
	I know that we have heard your evidence, but we haven't heard the evidence of Buthelezi.  Do you understand that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I think in future, this will not be tolerated.  You must make sure that you are here in time.  If there are any problems, notify your Attorneys that you have a problem, so that there are no delays.  I am not suggesting that we did not proceed yesterday because you were not there, but it may well occur in future that your absence may lead to a delay.
	It is in your interest to be here always, because the evidence that may be given here, may effect you one way or the other, and you've got to hear that evidence and give instructions to your Attorney so that that evidence if necessary, can be disputed.  Do you understand that?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I cannot pronounce your name, how do you pronounce your name?

MR SHELLBERG: Shellberg.

CHAIRPERSON: Shellberg?

MR SHELLBERG: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shellberg, in regard to Mr Nosenga, you have now had the opportunity to interview him in the presence of his legal representative.

MR SHELLBERG: Yes Mr Chairperson.  I have interviewed Mr Nosenga, together with Ms Tanzer

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, you may return to your seat gentlemen.

MR SHELLBERG: Based on the information that I obtained, I have recommended that the Witness Protection Unit that has already been in place since this morning, should be stepped up.
	I have also been in contact with the prison authorities to change, or to step up the security concerning Mr Nosenga in the prison, and I also had discussions with the police present at this location, also to make sure that the protection is as good as it can be.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you discussed these matters with Mr Nosenga and his legal representative?

MR SHELLBERG: Yes, we have discussed this together and Mr Nosenga is satisfied with these arrangements.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Do you confirm that Ma'am?

MS TANZER: I do Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Thank you Mr Shellberg.  We will leave the matter in your hands then, to make sure that he is afforded the necessary protection.

MR SHELLBERG: Yes, thank you.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, if I ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: On the issue of protection?

MR STRYDOM: No, I thought that issue was dealt with, I've got another issue.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no.  I think for the record, Mr Shellberg, would you convey to the responsible Head of the Prison, where these threats are supposed to emanate from, that these threats have been made, we are told, that there have been threats made against Mr Nosenga and if he could please to investigate these allegations and then report back to you and then you can give us a report in due course because I consider it to be a fairly serious matter, if a witness is threatened in any manner whatsoever.

MR SHELLBERG: Yes, I will do so Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson.  Chairperson, I would like to get a directive from the Committee with regard to applicants that have already testified.
	Are they under obligation to remain present, I would assume that it would be in their interest to remain present to give instructions if there are certain things said against them, but I would just like to get a directive as to the legal situation, if they are - if they have to be here?