Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-22

CHAIRPERSON: But that's what you went there for, to do and kill isn't it?  What was surprising about that?  Wasn't that the precise purpose?

DEON MARTIN: Everybody appeared to be dead to me and I didn't know what else to do on the scene.  They were all lying very still and it appeared as if they were all dead.

CHAIRPERSON: You regarded that as part of the revolution?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why did you not continue the revolution and kill as many as possible if you regarded what you did as part of the revolution?

DEON MARTIN: Chairperson, the following day at Japie Oelofse's we decided to lay low.  He didn't give us a reason therefore but I assumed that it was because he realised that his people hadn't acted the way he thought they would.  He even issued an order telling me to get rid of the Mercedes and that is why we stopped the whole story at that point, the revolution that is.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm trying to understand your behaviour as a group that night.  You went out to go and kill people, in fact you wanted to attack the squatter camp to kill people, there would have been many people to kill there.
	You went to put up the roadblock to kill people in pursuit of a revolution, now you only kill four or five and then you leave the place and you are not continuing with the killing as planned.  If that was a plan I fail to understand your behaviour.

DEON MARTIN: Chairperson, we identified the enemy as the ANC and we attacked them and after that we left.  If we had acted further, visited squatter camps and so forth, we would have to identify further targets.  Our objective was to attack the ANC/SACP Alliance and those who appeared before us that night were members of the ANC/SACP Alliance.

CHAIRPERSON: You were at a point where you were able to find a few of the kind of people you wanted to kill and then you killed them, why not continue to kill more if that was the plan?

DEON MARTIN: If we consider the timing, it was also quite late and we believed that every group countrywide would be acting in the way that we were acting and if that had happened it would have created large scale chaos and it would have promoted the revolution.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't it correct that you people ran away when you thought there was a vehicle coming?

DEON MARTIN: No, I wouldn't say that they ran away, they climbed in the vehicle and drove away but they didn't run away as such.

CHAIRPERSON: The fact is, you decided to leave the scene because there was a vehicle coming.

DEON MARTIN: Some of the people left the scene, I didn't leave the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't remain there, you also left.

DEON MARTIN: I left after we had set the vehicles alight and that was quite some time after.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were the vehicles set alight?

DEON MARTIN: On the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

DEON MARTIN: In order to disguise any clues.

CHAIRPERSON: Why worry about things of that nature if the following day you shall have taken over the country?  Why worry about such trivialities when you are busy with something huge, a revolution?

DEON MARTIN: As I have mentioned earlier, we would not want to be identified as the Randfontein Commando and if we had left any traces on the scene, they would have detected us and that is why we left the scene and set the vehicles alight.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is it not so that you people left the scene because - I mean, when you saw the other vehicle coming, because you were worried you might be arrested?  And isn't the reason why you removed the cartridges, burn the car, was to avoid being arrested by the South African Police who would the following day still be very much in power and control?

DEON MARTIN: Where we were standing it was difficult to see a vehicle approaching from afar, so the vehicle was rather close to us at that point.  While we were busy on the scene - I'm not referring to the group which had already left, a vehicle was approaching and I agree with you that the police would definitely still have been in power the next day and that is why we had to collect all the shells.

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage, did you really think that you were busy with a revolution to take over the country?

DEON MARTIN: Definitely.  I believed that such incidents were occurring on a nationwide level.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say that you did not see the child and women or did you say you don't remember whether you saw the child and/or the women?

DEON MARTIN: I can't remember that I saw the women and children.

CHAIRPERSON: How can you manage not to remember whether a small child was there, under those circumstances?

DEON MARTIN: The child who was shot was quite grown, it appeared to me to be a grown person.  The other little children who were present I did not see.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, while I'm looking to try to find out as to what his age was, the nature of the injuries inflicted on the child were such that it is difficult to accept, it would be difficult to accept that he was hit by accident, half his head was blown away, isn't that so?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, I saw the photo's, that is correct.  As I heard he had been sitting on his mother's lap.  It's very difficult for me to explain, however he was caught in the cross-fire and that is why he was shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Doesn't that show that quite possibly intensive fire was inflicted on him?

DEON MARTIN: No, as far as I know we fired in a general direction, we formed a line and we fired.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] the child was harassed and assaulted before he was killed, did you not see that?

DEON MARTIN: I can't remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that have bothered you, to see a child of that age harassed and assaulted?

DEON MARTIN: At that point we were involved in a war and it didn't bother me at all at that point, only much later can I admit that I do have deep sympathy for the family but at that point in time it would not have bothered me.

CHAIRPERSON: The Judge remarks in his Judgement that these people were questioned and some of the white people who were there, that is amongst you, said that these black people: "respekteer nie die base nie", and that was also a source of irritation to you people.

DEON MARTIN: Nothing of that sort happened.  It wasn't about who was the boss and who wasn't, it was about finding out to which group these people belonged.

CHAIRPERSON: What precisely were you told to do about people who belonged to the ANC, at the roadblock?  What orders were you given in that regard?

DEON MARTIN: We formed the group and decided that we would regard these people as the target and undertake our instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm asking about a possible order that could have been conveyed to you from, as you say, General Oelofse?

DEON MARTIN: General Oelofse told us to look for ANC/SACP people as targets, those were his instructions and furthermore we had to kill such people.

MR MALAN: Excuse me Chairperson.
	You said that General Oelofse said to: "us", you choice that specific word, why are you choosing that word because you testified earlier that you weren't present and that you'd heard it from Kloppers?

DEON MARTIN: I beg your pardon I will correct myself and then say Kloppers.

CHAIRPERSON: You told us that you were advised to get rid of the Mercedes Benze but you didn't want to do that, why?

DEON MARTIN: I believed firmly that the revolution was definitely breaking out and we believed that Eugene Terreblanche would make his declaration of war on the 16th but it did not happen and I realised myself that it was simply too late because the Mercedes had been seen on the scene of the offence and everybody knew that I drove a big Mercedes, it would have been pointless to get rid of it.

CHAIRPERSON: You seem no to be having more than one reason for not getting rid of the Mercedes, because earlier on I thought that your explanation was that you thought that the revolution was on anyway.