Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1996-06-26

MR MADAKA: Mr Ntsebeza, I would like to answer your questions very clearly.  I have a problem though, my problem is that I may not be able to help you because people who were there at the time, my parents, if they were here, they would give a better description.
 Because I wasn't here when this happened.  People here say we were refugees, I hate the word refugee, but that is a fact, I wasn't here at the time.  My information about that disappearance is very scant.  Unfortunately also Topsy's son is here, his name is Amadla Gawethu, but he prefers to be called Gawethu.
 If he could help, but unfortunate for him he was still very young at that time, he didn't understand clearly what was happening.  As far as I am concerned, I am in the dark, completely.  I hope though that my comrades here who were friends of Topsy at the time, will clear things for us to 
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the extend that they know and the request that Mrs Mtimkhulu has made that Dirk Coetzee should come and testify, that would also help to me, because my younger brother's son is looking to me as an uncle.  He hopes that I may have better information.
 I am glad the information is here because it will help him as well so that this thing is clarified.  The little that I know is what I read from the newspapers.  I was at the campus at the time, this was 1983, if I am not mistaken.  I was studying.
 I was, it was 1983.  I was reading about the disappearance of Siphiwo and Topsy and a newspaper called Newsbriefing.  In my opinion at the time, because I was at the camp, I thought maybe the thing got so hot for them that they decided to leave the country.  I know that from my own experience, because it was too hot for me and then I jumped the country.  And then after some time, I wasn't thinking about this.  Chris Hani came to our camp.
 And I went to Chris and I said Chris, what do you know about these young boys because I read that they are no more in South Africa and Chris answered no, I don't know much.  There is no report that I have in Lesotho, if they had gone to Lesotho I would have got an report.
 But I know that, because I once saw them.  They used to come, this time they haven't come, but we will also investigate if they are somewhere or if they are not anywhere to be seen, we will let you know.
 That is as far as I know.  There is nothing else that I know about their disappearance, except to get this bit from this one and another bit from that one.  That will then be explained by people who were close to Topsy and we will 
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hear it officially.

MR NTSEBEZA: As someone whose brother disappeared, I am sure you do have some views that you could, some wishes which you would request us to meet.

MR MADAKA: I don't like to dream.  I am not a dreamer, I've dreamt a lot and that humbled me.  Maybe I will express my wishes and they turn out to be complexed issues for the Commission to effect.  In my opinion I would like the Commission to state what they are able to do and what they are unable to do, then we will grab that as our hope so that if that doesn't happen, then we'll say well, at least they have tried.
 I don't want to say this is my wish, because that will give me some expectations and then if it doesn't
materialise, I get disappointed.  Then I start cursing even the Commission and say the truth they are talking about is questionable, but I would like the Commission to tell me how much they can do for me, then I'll hold onto that.

MR NTSEBEZA: That's a bit difficult, that is a bit difficult, that is why we say what we can do is something that is within our ability, but we would like to hear what people wish for.  As I say, you've just said that you don't want to dream, but there are certain things.  Sometimes miracles do happen.
 You may say something that is just a dream and then you'll find it materialise.  We would just like to know, if you had your way, what would you wish to happen because we will use that as a point of departure and then we see if that can be effected, because even from this case there are certain things that were brought up. 
 The Bishop will come back to those - just tell us what 
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you would wish for.  Even if you repeat those that you mentioned in the statement, we've got those, just for the public to know that you have this particular wish.

MR MADAKA: I'm thinking you know, prison service, because I was hoping you would say we would do this and this and this, now you are saying you clarify your position.
 I said earlier I don't want to be a dreamer, but I'll express those wishes, but they are not very different from those expressed by Mrs Mtimkhulu, but they will sound as if they are not coming from me as such.  That is why I say I don't want to be a dreamer.
 I associate myself with what Mrs Mtimkhulu said about Siphiwo's case.  I've also mentioned that Topsy also had a child, it is somewhere at school, I don't know what class he is doing.  It is one of the NT something and his mother is here.  She wishes that her son could proceed with his education like everyone else, however, everyone has a problem.
 I also have a problem.  She also has other kids that need help and as far as I'm concerned, I can only help by advice as a father.  
 I do not have the ability to help financially, because I can describe myself just as a victim of sorrow.  A victim of sorrow is those people who used to be involved in the struggle and they would reminiscence about those days and then they said oh, friend, do you remember those days when we were in detention, then I say, okay let's buy him a beer.
 There is no door at which I knock at the morning and say I can do that, I could do that, I hope that if my brother's son could be help educationally, we would be very happy.
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 The other point I would like to raise is that there is this issue of the car that has been mentioned.  This car is always mentioned and it is as if my uncle and  Gawetu's mother, they tried to look for this car.  They went to Westbank, and Westbank asked them to go and fetch it and there were problems there again.  They couldn't get it.
 They tried insurance companies to help, but there were problems there about his insurances, they couldn't say anything about someone who didn't have a death certificate.
 And so it ended up like that, so if a death certificate can come maybe that will release the pressure and the attempts to get the car, maybe we can succeed.  Because Gawetu might feel that he has been cheated, has been taken advantage of because of his father's death.
 As far as the bones are concerned, we would like to have them.  We would like to have those remains and have a funeral ceremony, because there is something that I always say at home, I don't like the word disappearance.  I don't like it at all, because if we were to accept that, then we would never get the remains.
 There is no one that will turn into some air, that is a myth, you can't even tell the children that someone has turned into some air, we need those remains.  I believe that the people who did what they did to them, know where the bones are.
 So it is very nice that we have people like Dirk Coetzee and those are the people who can give us a direction in this connection.  Maybe the Commission in that regard can also help and then DNA tests maybe  could be done on the bones, because we wouldn't like to have bones that are said to be our relatives bones, only to find that it is someone 
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else's bones.
 It would be very helpful if a DNA test could be done, that is all I would like to say at this moment.