Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

BISHOP STOREY: No, it wasn't because of that event.  Yes, it was partly because of that event.  I think Mr Naidoo had given no indication that he was going to attend that meeting.  That's the first thing. But I think that the concern in the meeting was that they had taken trouble to keep the venue confidential, and the reason that they had done so was of concern that members of the football team might attack them, and so when Mr Naidoo arrives with Cebekhulu and a member of the football team, there is consternation.  I wasn't impressed with Mr Naidoo's behaviour at that time and would have to acknowledge, yes, that from then I was, I acted with some caution in respect to Mr Naidoo.

MR SEMENYA: And now we know that your suspicion about him was ill-founded.  Is that right?

BISHOP STOREY: No, I don't know that at all.

MR SEMENYA: Are you suggesting ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Order, please.

MR SEMENYA: Are you suggesting that Attorney Krish Naidoo had something to do with the disappearance of the children and that ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Not at all, not at all, and I've never even implied that.  I think that you need to realise that, in this very difficult and stressful time, we were also struggling to know who we were dealing with as spokespersons for or representatives of Mrs Mandela.  It was Mr Ayob, and then, at some point, and I think, probably, I've a note of it, if the date is important, but I don't think it is, Mr Ayob gave up in disgust and said I can't handle this anymore.  At that point, I think, Mr Naidoo came in as Mrs Mandela's attorney.  The only other reference, in fact, the only reference I've made to Mr Naidoo, which in any way is critical of him, is that, when I asked to meet with the Crisis Committee, just prior to what I hoped would be a meeting with Mrs Mandela, Mr Naidoo appeared at that meeting and I questioned his right to be there, because he wasn't a member of the Crisis Committee and I wanted to know what his status was in that meeting, and I asked him whether he was representing Mrs Mandela or not, and he said I'm a go-between.  That's the only word of mild criticism in my documentation about Mr Naidoo.

MR SEMENYA: Yes, but what I'm trying to say is now we know, unless if you have information to the contrary, that Krish Naidoo had no wrongdoing at that time.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes, I wasn't sure of the propriety of his presence.  I needed to know who he represented in that meeting, that's all, and I wasn't totally satisfied with his answer, but I allowed it to go and he stayed in the meeting.

MR SEMENYA: Are you saying what gave rise to your suspicion is because he was a legal representative to ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Oh yes.

MR SEMENYA: ... to Mrs Mandela.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR VALLY: I need to object here, Archbishop.  The reason I want to object is Bishop Storey hasn't got legal representation.  Mrs Madikizela-Mandela has told us in our Section 29 in camera inquiry that Krish Naidoo was never her attorney.

MR SEMENYA: I didn't understand the objection.

MR VALLY: The objection was very clear.  Mr Ismail Semenya talked about Mr Krish Naidoo being the legal representative of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.  I pointed out that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela herself has said in the Section 29 in camera inquiry that Mr Krish Naidoo was never her attorney.

MR SEMENYA: The only question I had asked the witness, is were you suspicious of Krish Naidoo because he was ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: ... a representative of Mrs Mandela.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: How does this objection arise?

CHAIRPERSON: I think you said "legal".  I think you said "legal representative".

MR SEMENYA: That's what the witness seems to confirm, that he held the view that Mr ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: So, I don't see why this objection arises, really.

BISHOP STOREY: It was certainly my understanding, correct or incorrect, and it was an understanding which wasn't, I don't think, denied, it was a misapprehension which wasn't put to rest by Mr Naidoo, to my knowledge.  There was a period, and I can't speak of exactly what that period was, where I understood that he was, in fact, representing Mrs Mandela, and I would want to respond as to why I was suspicious.
 I was having a meeting, I understood, with the Crisis Committee prior to our meeting, our first meeting, finally achieved, with Mrs Mandela, which was going to take place in a matter of minutes.  This was a preparatory meeting.  Now, I would have fully expected Mr Naidoo to be present, and properly so, when the Crisis Committee accompanied by the church met with Mrs Mandela.  I had 
had no objection to that.  What I was concerned about is what Mr Naidoo was doing in our meeting, our preparatory meeting with Mrs Mandela, and I raised that question, and he spoke in a way that certainly didn't satisfy me, but I didn't believe it was something that was worth making a big fuss and bother about, and so I allowed it to go.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, may this be a convenient time to take a lunch adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, the, one of the problems is we are guided by these people who feed us, and we've said we go up to, I mean, 1:30.  I would have hoped we could finish with, I hope so, I mean, that we might be able to finish with a witness, so that we have a clean break and can start with somebody else after lunch.

MR SEMENYA: Can I, Chairperson, ask for a two-minute adjournment then?

CHAIRPERSON: So, I mean, yes, let's, don't say two minutes, because ...

MR SEMENYA: How much time can I've?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no (not translated). Ah, wait, it looks like, I mean, it looks like, I mean, it looks lunch has arrived, I mean.  Let me just find out.  No?  I, I, order, please.  Hello, the session is still on. Order, please.  All right, let's have the two minutes, we'll break at 1:30.
HEARING ADJOURNS

MR SEMENYA: ... formation of the football team.  Do you have information to gainsay that?

BISHOP STOREY: No, I think I need to say that I don't know anything about the football team and how it was formed.  Nothing at all.  My first encounter or knowledge of the football team was on the day that Mrs Mandela's house was burnt in Soweto, and I went to visit her to commiserate with her.  That was the first day when I received from her neighbour a report that a group known as the football team were living at the house, and the house had been burnt in revenge for some actions they had taken in the area.  That's the very first I know of the football team.

MR SEMENYA: Yes, I'm trying to go the distance of its formation, because I understood you to be saying people like Katiza Cebekhulu were members of that football team.

BISHOP STOREY: No, no, I wasn't.  The only time I referred to the football team, I mean, as this abduction drama developed so the words "the football team" became common currency and ... (intervention).

MR SEMENYA: That's right.

BISHOP STOREY: ... everybody in the Crisis Committee talked about them as if they knew all about them.  I didn't know anything about them.  My first acquaintance with them was as I've mentioned.

MR SEMENYA: Yes, that's why I'm saying maybe we need to clear the background, because this football team keeps ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: ... coming up, and I'm just trying to test whether you have information that might not be consistent with my understanding.  That, in fact, after a, the tensions that was in the youth league, culminating in some violence on either side of the divide, it was decided, and I was talking to the man who came up with the idea, to form a soccer team to reconcile the two groups.  Is, you don't have information inconsistent with that?

BISHOP STOREY: No, I don't.