Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

COL VENTER: During this event Colonel Jack Cronje wasthe commander at Vlakplaas.  I was directly under his commandand control.  A number of members of Vlakplaas were given theinstruction to go to the Eastern Cape particularly Port Elizabethsince the politically related unrest was taking place there andour help was needed with the suppression of the unrest.  We wereinstructed to take along a group of askaris, former members ofUmkhonto we Sizwe and SAP members 3B to/...
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to identify possible infiltrators.  When we as members of Vlakplaaswere sent to other regions we were placed under the command ofthe regional commander and received direct instructions from theregions' offices.  I remember that the following Vlakplaas memberswent along, namely Gert Beslaar, Joe Mamasela, Johannes Kule,Piet Mogwayo, Peggy Radebe and other Black members whose namesI no longer remember.  In the early hours of the morning we arrivedin Port Elizabeth and went to the railway station to Glen Connorwhere we stayed in a house.  We rode patrol and I attempted toidentify possible infiltrators, activists and incitists to findthem and gain information.  As we found and arrested these activistswe handed them over to the local security branch for further action. There were daily consultations with the members of the Port Elizabethsecurity branch.  The purpose was to assist the security branchthere with the finding of trained terrorists and activists whowere fleeing from them and who were responsible for the unrestin the area.  
 The security branch in Port Elizabeth gained information thatthree activists who were specifically looked for with regard topolitical unrest and destabilisation in the area would have goneto the airport that particular night.  At that time the entirecountry was alight and there was unrest everywhere, arson, sabotage,incitement, school boycotts, consumer boycotts, necklacing murdersand other kinds of intimidation.  I was asked to go along withthe askaris to the airport to pick up the three men.  We werenot known in the area and therefore were able to act with easewithout causing suspicion.  Captain Sakkie van Zyl of the securitybranch came along with me and the 
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askaris.  The information available to us were that they wereANC activists involved in unrest in that area.  The purpose ofthe operation was to interrogate them, gain information, removethem out of the area and neutralise their involvement.  I didnot know at that time that there had been a decision that theywere to be eliminated by being killed.  We drove to the airportwith a Nissan Safari.  Joe Mamasela, Kule, Magwayo and Radebefollowed in a minibus.  Lieutenant Dion Nieuwoudt also went along. I think at that time he was a warrant officer.
 We were shown photographs of the activists and knew exactly whatthey looked like.  The askaris easily picked them up at the airportand took them away with a combi to the agreed meeting place alongthe ocean.  Dion Nieuwoudt and another person, whose name I cannotremember removed the vehicle of the three persons, it was a bakkie. Myself, Sakkie van Zyl and Gert Beslaar met the group of askarisat a later stage at the agreed place next to the ocean.  The threeactivists were at this meeting.  They had caps over their headswhich were entirely covered.  Myself and Warrant Officer Beslaarleft everyone there and went back to our residence at Glen Connor. It had been requested that my askaris were to assist the branchwith regard to further interrogation and investigation and I leftthem there under the command of Sakkie van Zyl.  
 Sakkie van Zyl before we left asked me to return to them, orrather to meet with them in Cradock a day or two later.  I donot remember why the interrogation took place at Cradock but acceptedthat the purpose was that they were to be kept outside of thearea where they operated.  I was going to Cradock in any eventsince I was visiting all the 
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security branches in the area.  The commander at Cradock was totake me to Van Zyl where I was also to meet with my askaris andregain command over them.  
 A day or two later we went to Cradock where Major Winter, thecommander of the Cradock security branch took us to the placewhere the three captives were.  It was an old police station inthe Cradock area.  I will not be able to identify this place againtoday.  At this old police station was present Sakkie van Zyl,Dion Nieuwoudt, the already mentioned askaris and Major Winterwho took us to this place.  Gert Beslaar had gone along with me. I cannot remember the names of other persons there present. The only persons whom I know and remember at that event was DionNieuwoudt, Sakkie van Zyl and Major Winter.  
 We had a barbecue and had some drinks and the three captiveswere with us but their faces were covered so they were not ableto see us.  I could see them and it had not appeared if they werein any way harmed, or in an evident way harmed. Dion Nieuwoudtor Sakkie van Zyl told me that the investigation or interrogationhad gone well and that much information had been gained.  I didnot take part in the interrogations but gathered that the threewere later to be eliminated since their bakkie had already beendestroyed.   Later that evening I went along with Beslaar backto Glen Connor and the Vlakplaas askaris joined us that eveningor the next morning at Glen Connor.  I was not involved in theinterrogation of the three persons nor was I involved in any assaultsor intimidation or any other action against these three persons. I was also not involved in the removal of the bakkie.
 I am not entirely sure what happened to these three 
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persons nor did I hear afterwards what had happened to them. Someone whose name I cannot remember informed me that their bakkiehad been burnt out.  This is the same bakkie that Nieuwoudt hadremoved from the airport.
 The three mentioned activists were the great troublemakers atthat stage in the Eastern Cape.  The entire operation was aimedat removing these three from the area and to neutralise them. I do not remember that an instruction had been given that theywere to be killed.  
 I do, however, know that from time to time that activists andterrorists responsible for serious crimes, the death of otherpersons, assaults, intimidation and the death of innocent civilianswere eliminated and then disappeared.  It was necessary to eliminateactivists of such stature since if they were to be kept in detentionthey would have become an increasing risk since they would havemartyrs for their people.  
 Sakkie van Zyl, then a captain of the security branch in theEastern Cape was under the direct command of the currently retiredGeneral Nick van Rensburg.  Sakkie van Zyl's instructions musthave come from General Nick van Rensburg who was at that timeeither a Brigadier or Colonel and who was then head of the securitybranch in the Eastern Cape.

UNKNOWN: Colonel on the next page you answer thequestion whether you know what the names were of the victims,their locations or addresses or of their relatives, do you haveany of this knowledge?

COL VENTER: Chair as I say we were shown photographsand the names were written on the back of the photographs, butI cannot remember these names, that's why I could not
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complete the form in this regard?

UNKNOWN: Do you have any further names with regardto these victims when you completed the application?

COL VENTER: No.

UNKNOWN: On page 114 you discussed the politicalpurposes.  The first part of this response is the general partwhich Brigadier Cronje already presented to the Committee.  MayI take you therefore to page 121 starting from the middle of thepage you start with "Die motief was..." could you startfrom there again.