Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-09

ADV PRIOR: ... the 9th of November 1998, the start of two weeks of amnesty hearings.  Mr Chairman, you will notice from the bundles that have been prepared, that there are three incidents, I beg your pardon, four incidents involving the deaths of several deceased.  The event that is going to be heard this morning is the death of one, Bhila and that involves the amnesty applications of Bosch, Rosslee and McCarter, also that of Taylor who is deceased and Wasserman, I beg your pardon.
	Mr Chairman, may I possibly ask that the parties representing the applicants and the other interested parties put their names on record, as well as the Committee, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Before that, have you put yours on record?

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, on behalf of the Amnesty Committee, the Evidence Leader, Advocate Paddy Prior, thank you.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may it please you and the Honourable Members of the Committee, Louis Visser ...(inaudible).
PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES

MR VISSER: May it please you, Mr Chairman, Honourable Members of the Committee, I'm Louis Visser, instructed by Wagener and Muller.  In the Bhila incident, Mr Chairman, I appear for number 3, A S Rosslee and number 6, L Wasserman.
	Mr Chairman, you might have noticed, if I may be permitted to mention it now, you know that there are other incidents as well and it appears that there are two bundle 1's before you.  It may be convenient if there is going to be cross-references, to refer to this as the Bhila bundle 1 and the other as Zandile bundle 1.  If that would find pleasure with you, Mr Chairman.
	And then lastly, may I be so bold as to ask, Mr Chairman, whether we might be allowed to discard such items of clothing as might be incompatible with the weather as we go along, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR VISSER: Thank you.

MR ROUSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman, my surname is Roussouw from the firm Ruth and Wessels.  I'm appearing in the Bhila matter on behalf of applicant Bosch.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: May it please the Committee, Mr Chairman, Honourable Members, the name is van Schalkwyk of the Maritzburg Bar.  In the Bhila matter I appear on behalf of the applicant, F McCarter as well as parties mentioned namely, Mhieza and Mgade.

MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman, my name is Christo Nel, I have instructed Advocate van Schalkwyk, appearing for McCarter, Mhieza and Mgade.  I'm also on record for the late Colonel Taylor and have been instructed so by his wife.

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, my name is Schalk Hugo, I appear on behalf of implicated parties, Mr M A Letsatsi, Mr V C Khumalo, Mr W B Maluleka and Mr P J Radebe, thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you, Mr Chairman and the Honourable Members of the Committee, my name is E Ngubane.  I represent all the victims here, that is, Ntjale, Nxiweni, Vilagazi, Ndlovu, Ndwandwe and Bhila.

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee consists of myself, Andrew Wilson, Advocate Sigodi and Mr Malan.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I indicate at this stage that all the necessary and relevant Section 19 notices were sent out to implicated persons as well as to victims, hence the representation that we see today, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is going to begin?

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr Chairman, I believe I'm going to begin.  I call the applicant, Mr Frank McCarter.

FRANK MCCARTER: (sworn states)

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Thank you, Mr Chairman, may I proceed.  May the applicant be seated?  Thank you.
	Mr McCarter, right in the beginning you have applied in terms of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act, for amnesty in two occasions and have also completed the necessary application forms in this respect, is that correct?

FRANK MCCARTER: Correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Your application form insofar as it relates to the Bhila matter, is contained in the bundle before the Honourable Committee, from pages 32 Mr Chairman and onwards, is that correct?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Right at the outset, do you confirm the contents - if the Committee will bear with me for a moment, and you confirm the contents thereof, is that correct?

FRANK MCCARTER: I confirm them, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr McCarter, right at the outset then, would you please give the Committee a very brief background of your history and your work history, for want of a better description, with the South African Police Services.
	Mr Chairman, we will be referring to page 6 of the application, that is on page 37 of the bundle before the Committee.

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, I joined the South African Police in 1976, initially stationed in Pretoria.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: At what unit were you stationed there?

FRANK MCCARTER: In the Uniform Branch.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Would you sketch to the Committee the circumstance or perhaps I should say, what sort of unit was it that you had joined and what were the members like that were there?

FRANK MCCARTER: It was charge office work and generally guarding cells and that sort of thing.  I just might say that I'd come from an English-speaking background and I was thrown in in the deep end in Pretoria.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: You mentioned in paragraph B on 37 of the papers, that you were made aware of the communist threat and the ANC being regarded the enemy, would you care to elaborate on that?

FRANK MCCARTER: Well 1976 was the time of the Soweto riots and that prior to that I'd not really taken much notice of any political activities or anything.  It was only during '76 that I became more aware of the liberation struggle and that.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Was there any particular incident that stood out, that had an effect on you?

FRANK MCCARTER: Well up until this point I was basically pretty much out of the political thing but at the end of 1976 was the so-called "Border Gate" incident where Constable Raap Britz and Sergeant Xhosa were wounded in a handgrenade attack.  I happen to know these people personally, having gone through the border posts during school holidays and this had quite a profound effect on me.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Right.  Would you proceed, where did you go to from there?

FRANK MCCARTER: From there I went to Piet Retief where I was also station in the Uniform Branch.  Thereafter I moved to Komatiepoort, and towards the end of 1977 I was transferred to the Security Branch.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: How do you find the Security Branch at that particular point in time, the circumstances there?

FRANK MCCARTER: Well I found it was a step up from the Uniform Branch in that regard.  I think the people were slightly better trained and it was more exciting I would say.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: You mention in the application that the branch was far more politically conscious than the Uniform Branch, would you elaborate on that?

FRANK MCCARTER: Well we had to do with anything in combatting terrorism and that included the ANC/PAC and the various black ...(inaudible)
POWER FAILURE

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr McCarter, before the short adjournment you were dealing with your joining the Security Branch, on page 37.  Page 37, Mr Chairman and Honourable Members.  You were explaining your statement in your application, that the Security Branch was far more politically conscious and I asked you elaborate when we ran out of power, would you please proceed with that?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, we attended various courses, lectures and had quite a bit of propaganda thrown at, anti-ANC/PAC and that sort of thing, propaganda thrown at us on these courses.  The belief was firmly installed in us that the communist threat was real and serious.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: From Komatiepoort, where did you go?

FRANK MCCARTER: In 1980 I joined Koevoet in Namibia.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: How long did you remain with Koevoet?

FRANK MCCARTER: I was there for four years, Mr Chairman, where I had probably in excess of 80 contacts.