Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:   After some time I would like to conclude that we had to attend a court case, and they said to me, "We'll be next to you.  Just go there any say everything that you have seen in our statement.  Because of my situation after all the things I went through, the solitary confinement, my beatings and the noises, which I think it's a white noise, I was not well at all.

MR LYSTER: And what happened during the court case?

WITNESS:   There was a Judge.  They said I must read the statement that they made me to sign.  They were asking me questions and I had to read the statement.  I forgot something.  Something happened.  As I said police have got more powers.  They took us as a group and they took us to a prostitute.  I am sorry, it's a prosecutor, and the prosecutor have to ask us to confirm as to whether we know the things which were written in the statements.

MR LYSTER: Was Harry Gwala involved in all this?

WITNESS:   Yes, he was also involved.  I remember well when I arrived at prison Dreyer make a joke about me, about Harry Gwala and me.  He asked me, "Where is your father?" referring to Harry Gwala.

MR LYSTER: We can see that you were harassed, but I would like to ask you some few questions in order to find a clear  picture as to what had happened to you.  If you can explain briefly as to how long did you stayed at Loop

MR LYSTER: Street Police Station?

WITNESS:   I didn't spend much time at Loop Street Police Station.  I can say I just stayed there for about two days.

MR LYSTER: What about Thornville?  How long did you stay there?

WITNESS:   I can say it's about a month.

MR LYSTER: And then you were sent to Central.  How long did you stay there?

WITNESS:   I stayed there for a long time.  I can say it's about five or four months.

MR LYSTER: And then you were taken to Howick.  How long did you stay at Howick?

WITNESS:   I stayed for a longer period, longer than the one I spent at Central Prison.  Like 18 months I think.

MR LYSTER: Do you remember the time during which you were released?

WITNESS:   I can't remember the date very well.

MR LYSTER: You mention a lot of names of people who harassed you.  You told us about van der Merwe, Le Roux, Gold, Nyoka, and the Special Branch police who fetched you from your home.  Do you know the whereabouts of all the people you mention?

WITNESS:   I don't know.

MR LYSTER: Not even a single one?

WITNESS:   I have never seen them again.  I would like to add, after I was released I applied for a passport.  Mr Meyer came to my house to tell me that, "So does it mean now that you have applied for a passport you want to do the thing that we were asking you about?"  I just kept quiet, I didn't say anything.  And he said, "The next day you must come and see me at Loop Street."  When I arrived the next morning at Loop Street he said to me, "You must stop this way of yours," and he said to me, "We can buy a person for R5,00 to kill you,"

MR LYSTER: /said to

MR LYSTER: and he said, "We are the ones who are in charge here."

MR LYSTER: You talked about Comrade Xaba.  Where is he at the

MR LYSTER: moment?

WITNESS:   He is still around.  He is staying at Sobantu.  When they came to my place to pick me up he was there.  He was with the police.  Comrade Xaba, was he not arrested?   ---   Yes, we were arrested together with him.

MR LYSTER: Have you ever been tried in court?

WITNESS:   No, I wasn't.

MR LYSTER: Lastly I would like to come to talk about your health, because in most cases people like you who have been put into solitary confinement, this was aimed to sort of like disorganising you mentally, as you have already explained that you were also losing your mind.  Have you ever received any psychological treatment?

WITNESS:   I will say that after I was released I tried to get some help, but I was afraid that maybe if I go to the doctors they will take the matter to the police.  It was a bad time.

MR LYSTER: At the present moment how do you feel?

WITNESS:   I am feeling well, but I don't know how the effects are.  I will be happy to be in contact with a psychologist to find out what exactly is happening.

MR LYSTER: As you are now a businessman, can you tell us more about your work?

WITNESS:   No, I just started my work.

MR LYSTER: Thank you very much.  I will take you back to the Chairperson.

MR LYSTER: Mr Sipho Kubheka, you were harassed up to a stage where you were about to lose your mind.  You were beaten, you couldn't sleep, you drank some beer which you never knew what kind of beer it was, you were made to sign a statement which you did not know where it came from.  Is  it true that the statement that you signed in that condition is a statement that put you in a situation where

MR LYSTER: you found yourself as a State witness in the case of the State against Harry Gwala?  Did they tell you that if you become a State witness against Gwala you will be released?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is true.  That is true.

MR LYSTER: I am putting myself in your position.  After Harry Gwala was released did you ever met him?

WITNESS:   Yes, I did, several times.  When he was released I had to deliver The Sunday Tribune to him at home.  I was working for an ANC branch at Sobantu,in the offices.  We used to meet in the offices several times and talk.

MR LYSTER: I am so glad to hear that.  And he also understood the situation that you were under pressure to be a State witness.

WITNESS:   Yes, that's true.

MR LYSTER: You've given us a very graphic account of what it was like to have been tortured by the Security Branch.  So much of the evidence that we have heard over the past few days has been about what happened to people in the 1980s and the 1990s, and we tend to forget about the terrible conditions which prevailed in this country in the 60s and the 70s, which was when you were arrested in the 70s.  One of your friends, Mr Anthony Xaba, also gave evidence here at these hearings a couple of days ago, and he also told us about his torture at the hands of the Security Branch, and he too mentioned the name of Mr Dreyer as somebody who had led his interrogation and torture.  And, as Mr Xaba said in his evidence, it is a terrible indictment on our Courts that they routinely accepted the evidence of people whose confessions were  extracted after long periods of torture, solitary confinement, and isolation from their families and from
lawyers.  It also is, I believe, shocking that some of these policemen still hold high positions in our police force today. 
You have suffered terribly from what happened, and we thank you for coming here today and having the courage to relate those stories again.  As you have heard me say, we don't have the power to assist you directly, but we can make recommendations to the Government as to how you should be assisted in the future.
So we thank you very much for coming in and telling us your story today, and we wish you well.  Thank you.

MR LYSTER: Ms Kunene, we welcome you, we greet you.  Can you ... (inaudible)

UNKNOWN: Yes, I can hear you.

MR LYSTER: You also have come from Mpophomeni township, and you will tell us about the death of your husband, Umfana Julius Kunene, who died in January 1990.  Before you tell us that story please can you stand up and take the oath.

UNKNOWN: (Sworn, States)

MR LYSTER: Commissioner Dr Mgojo will help you with your evidence today.

KHOZA MGOJO: Good afternoon, Mrs Kunene.  How are you doing?

WITNESS:   I am doing fine.

KHOZA MGOJO: I would like you to give us a picture of your family.

WITNESS:   I have seven children.  My first-born is working in Durban, the second one is married, the third one is at home, he has just finished his matric.  The fourth one also finished matric.  He's at home.  The fifth one is doing standard nine.  The other two twins, one is doing standard six, the other one is doing standard five.