Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-01

MR SHANE: Now when you went into the house or the office and you took the AK-47, Muchacho was present, is that correct?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes, he was present.

MR SHANE: Did Muchacho do anything to stop you from taking that AK-47?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: No, he did not attempt to stop me, because he was also angry towards this person.

MR SHANE: So in other words, the fact that he did not stop you taking that AK-47, would you regard that as being similar to his approval of your actions?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: So you also, thus, were basically acting with his authority.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: I, is, do you want, are you asking whether I did this under Muchacho's command?

MR SHANE: You've already said you did this under Muchacho's command.  What I'm saying to you is the fact that Muchacho, who was aware of what you did, did nothing to prevent you, him being your commander.  Do you not regard that as possibly him showing his approval of your actions?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: One last question.  Let us assume that you were not there at all that day.  Would Beki Khanyile still have died, do you think?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes, he would still be killed, because I was not the only person that I knew everything about Beki.  I was not the only person that knew everything about Beki.

MR SHANE: That is all thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR SHANE: I don't know if I should address you Mr Chairman, I just wish to submit with the greatest respect that the provisions of Section 20 of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act, I submit have been complied with.  It's quite clear ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Chairperson the speaker's mike is not activated.

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman it's quite clear that there was a clear political objective regarding his actions, and I submit that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane I'm going to give you an opportunity to address us if you wish after all the evidence.  You have told me that you've got another appointment after this.

MR SHANE: That is correct Mr Chairman, I am available for the rest of the week and I would, in the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I need to know whether the order in which you people are going to lead your evidence, has that been agreed to as being the most appropriate?

MR SHANE: Sir I would submit that the most appropriate thing to do next is to call the person, Victor Mabaso, also known as Muchacho.

CHAIRPERSON: You're not listening to me.  I'm asking has all the representatives who have an interest in this matter, and will appear for various applicants, have you people amongst yourselves agreed that the way you plan to submit the evidence is the best for everybody concerned?  In other words, that you would finish all your witnesses first, before any of the other representatives come sit where you are sitting.

MR SHANE: Sir frankly we have not actually discussed that type of strategy.  I for one, most of my other colleagues' matters are going to actually be referred to chambers.  From my point of view, I am here tomorrow and I would like to, if possible I could run the whole of tomorrow and in a sequence, but we have not really made that arrangement between ourselves.

CHAIRPERSON: All I'm trying to find out is if it's any, if it's going to cause anybody inconvenience if one of your colleagues continue with one of their cases in your absence.

MR SHANE: Absolutely, it will not be in any way prejudicial to any of the applicants sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a case that we can proceed with?

MR SHANE: I understand from my colleagues, I see they are at the back, they are debating it sir.  If could we just find out from them?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to adjourn now, and then you people can come see me in five or ten minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS