Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-15

MR WILLIAMS: Maybe I should refer you to the bundle, it's in the bundles, it's on paper.  I think Mr van Zyl says that in his application.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: And then you'll have to ask him that Mr Chairperson.

MR WILLIAMS: But weren't these the types of information that came to your knowledge which played a role in your coming to the decision that you did?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, a presentation was made to me and in the presentation it was said that this was a final situation, this was background information.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes maybe I must just refer you to bundle B, page 38.  It is the sixth line from the bottom.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes that sentence reads as follows, just for record purposes
"These two persons were also members of the mentioned organisation.  The Williams girl who died in the explosion is a half sister of Peter Williams."

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, this is a statement that was made afterwards.  Whether this is intelligence in a presentation to me at the time of the operation will still have to be confirmed.

MR WILLIAMS: They were not even members of our organisation, they were never ever members of the Kewtown Youth Movement.  Do you want to comment on that?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, no comment.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams, Kewtown, that's K-E-W because I've seen it spelt Q as in the alphabet?

MR WILLIAMS: It's K-E-W.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR WILLIAMS: Now Sir, I want to ask you when the presentation with regard to the Early Learning Centre was made to you, who was present at that presentation?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: The exact number of people I do not know or the exact people I would not know but it would have been the co-ordinator or the person who was responsible for the project, Mr Slang van Zyl and then the Regional Manager and myself.  I think it should only have been us.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you tell the Committee who made the presentation, did the Co-ordinator make it or did the member directly responsible make it?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That was the person responsible for the project but they would work in a team so the Regional Manager would give an introduction, the Co-ordinator would say something and the presentation would be done by Mr Slang van Zyl.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you remember what was the information that they supplied to you?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I cannot, it happened a long time ago.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you remember one aspect of the information that was supplied to you?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I said that it went about the premises that were used for leftist activities that could lead to destabilisation in the country and I think I said the other day that I can remember that there had been for example other bomb explosions that would have been planned and I was under the impression that it would have been done from those premises.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, sorry Mr Williams.  Mr Verster, these presentations, you talk about these presentations, would they be oral or would there be written submissions as well that would have been made to you?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Sometimes it was done, the written part was only the administrative part regarding for instance finances and a project name.  There might have been plans that would be shown in the presentation ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, while we're talking about the Early Learning Centre incident, did that have a name, an operation name, a code name?  If so, what was it.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes it would have had one.  It could have been under Mr Slang van Zyl's project name or we chose ad hoc new names, I can't tell you the name now.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you ask your men whether they verified the information?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes I've already answered that Mr Chairperson.

MR WILLIAMS: What was their response?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I can't remember the detail of it but it was a normal question that I would have asked them and it would have been about the confirmation of whether the intelligence had been verified on other levels if the community had been contacted and it happened so many years ago that I cannot remember what the answer was but I would not have continued if it was not positive.

MR WILLIAMS: I put it to you also that even the intelligence community knew that our youth was not involved in acts of violence.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No comment, I have nothing to say about this.

MR WILLIAMS: Even the informer who supplied Mr van Zyl with information knew that myself and my fellow youth members were not involved in acts of violence?  Is there no answer?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I have no comment.

MR WILLIAMS: Maybe I should also state that this informer approached me on one occasion and told me that he has access to handgrenades and to weapons and whether we in the Kewtown Youth Movement or the UDF needed those weapons, he will supply it to us.  I categorically told him that we are not involved in those acts.  Was that information ever supplied to you?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No I do not know about that Mr Chairperson.

MR WILLIAMS: Maybe I should ask that to Mr van Zyl.  Then I also want to ask you Sir, if one of the units had to for example burn down a premises did they have to seek your authority for that?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: They should have done that Mr Chairperson, if it happened but we did not burn down buildings left and right.

MR WILLIAMS: But obviously they had to seek your permission or your approval because it has certain cost implications?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I want to state it in the following way, any project that was presented and the project was accepted would go through me, that was my responsibility but it was not in any way our role and function in specific actions, in specific times and that is the only thing we did.

MR WILLIAMS: Did one of your members ever ask your permission to burn down another venue in the Kewtown community, the Pegasus Centre better known as the Bap Centre?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember anything about this.

MR WILLIAMS: Now in fact I think it's Mr van Zyl who says that in his application that one of the informers were used or were asked to burn down  the Pegasus Centre or the Bap Centre, as we call it and that he was in fact paid for this mission.  Do you know anything about that?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, I cannot remember that Mr Chairperson.

MR WILLIAMS: But if that did in fact occur would that have been proper?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I cannot remember at this point if it was approved project, if he did it on his own then it was not correct, then he followed his own head.  It might have been that there had been other activities that were part of training within the group and you would have to ask Mr van Zyl this.

MR WILLIAMS: Now Sir, you've stated yesterday that the objective was to demolish the structure, the building.  Or maybe I should first ask you, did this project or did you give permission that people could lose their lives in this project?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No Mr Chairperson.

MR WILLIAMS: Was that ever discussed?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I think it was discussed.

MR WILLIAMS: I'm going to come back to that but I think I'll ask you firstly what was the objective with this exercise?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: As I can remember it the object of it was to send a message and to give execution to our aim namely the disruption of the activities that were happening there because it came to my attention by means of Region 6 that from that place a bomb explosion was planned somewhere in that region.

MR WILLIAMS: But wouldn't your project be counter-productive because wouldn't that evoke response?  You had information that you were acting against a lot of terrorists.  Now if that was the case wouldn't that evoke a counter-reaction from these terrorists?