Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: On 22 April 1993 it happened that the communityat Masilo complained about a white person who was selling milkmixed with water and this milk was sold to the community of Masilo.  It happened that we burned the car as the community of Masiloand thereafter the police arrive.   These were the SAPS and ontheir arrival the very same police that I happened to kill arrivedand he harassed us, he was talking bad to us, we were togetherwith other comrades and it happened that he saw me among them,he saw me in this whole group of people burning the car.   Hepointed at me, he had a gun and he pointed his finger at me, hesaid it is not the first time that he saw me at the forefront,especially when we were fighting as the community of Masilo.  Fighting those oppressive things by the previous regime.

<UNKNOWN>: : You see that selling the milk with the extrawater in is oppression of the people, could you define that?

ANSWER: To sell milk mixed with water I would say it'soppression to the people because it was not the first time complainingabout this kind of milk or some property that was sold to theblack people in the township, for an example rotting meat, thatwould never be taken to the white people in town to be sold, itwould be brought to the black people because they were regarded,I don't know how to put this, but they were regarded as peoplewho do not have rights in the population of South Africa.

<UNKNOWN>: : Just explain to the Committee how you see thatburning the vehicle of a person cheating the people in an economicalsense can be defined, that he has done the burning of the vehicleas a political objective?   What political objective do you thinkyou gain if you burn the vehicle of the milkman?

ANSWER: Your Honour I think it has been on several occasionsthat we had mass actions to march to the magistrate's office intown so that we can get a solution for everything that was happening.  I'm referring to the things that were happening or that weredone against the community of Masilo, but we never came to a conclusionbecause on many occasions that we've been to the magistrate butno solution at all, that is why we decided as the youth that wewill burn this car when it is coming into the township to bringthat kind of milk again.

<UNKNOWN>: : ...on 22 April 1993 you said this police officer,the deceased pointed his finger at you, could you just explainwhat happened further then?

ANSWER: That's true, he pointed a finger at me and onhis other hand he had a long gun and said to me, you see you arealways at the forefront and it is not my first time to see youin wars and everytime when there is violence I see you among thepeople.   Now this time I will never say I will arrest you orI will harass you, but the week will never go by before I couldkill you.   That is what he said with his mouth, he used to eatwith....

CHAIRPERSON: : Allow his evidence to be recorded please, willyou repeat that again, a week will not go by?

ANSWER: I said when they arrived there he had this longgun in his other hand and with the other hand he pointed a fingerat me and he said to me I've seen you many times in the riotsand it's not the first time.   Now this time I will not arrestyou or harass you, but I will kill you before the end of thisweek.   That was on 22 April 1993, it was on a Wednesday at aboutpast 11 in the morning.

<UNKNOWN>: : ...the deceased again? (Start of question isoften lost due to lack of microphone).

ANSWER: I met the deceased again at about past 12, thatis past 12 midnight, that is when I met him on that day.   I didn'teven realise it was him, it was now on 23 April when I met him.

<UNKNOWN>: : Where did you meet him?

ANSWER: I was passing next to a hall, a community hall,I was from my girlfriend's place, I passed next to a shebeen,I didn't go inside I only passed, I think he saw me passing. Now when I was very close to the hall I heard a voice from behind,the voice said "man stop".   When I looked it was himwith a gun in his hand pointing at me and I stood, I asked himwhy do you want me to stop, what do you want from me when youpoint the gun to me like that?   He said unacceptable words andI felt very regretful not to say these words, he said to me let'sgo to Paul's place and I asked him what are we going to do atPaul's place?    He said don't ask me many things because he hadthis terrible thing in his hand, a gun, and because at that timeI was scared of death I listened to his orders and we went anywherewhere he wanted us to go to.   When we approached Paul's area,the street in which Paul lived, it happened that he was far behindme, you know we were not walking close to each other, he was behindme.   I thought that this person he wanted to detain me becausehe took me by force, I must say he took me by force because Inever thought that he wanted me to go to Paul's place.  I washeading for my home to sleep.   Now according to his orders Idid what he ordered me to do, it's because he had a gun in hishand, I was not armed I did not have a stone in my hand, nothingand he slapped me on the, in that same street because he was veryclose to me.   I got angry and I disturbed and I was aggravatedand I got scared and I grabbed him, you know I just grabbed him.  I don't have any authority to take anybody's life, God is theonly person who can take people's lives because he knows if hetakes a person's life, what is he doing with that.   It wasn'tmy intention to battle with him until his gun was on my side andI shot him.   I shot him three times.

<UNKNOWN>: : Can you just explain on which basis you saythat by killing this police officer you seek to further politicalobjectives?

ANSWER: I can say this to the Committee, it wasn't myintention at all to kill him because I was trying to protect myself.  In trying to protect myself against him he could have killedme actually if I didn't protect myself and I believe that it wouldnever appear before the court of law because he was working fora very corrupted government.   I'm really sorry as I'm here beforethe Committee and before the community and to all the people thatI've acted against, his family.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were you at that time a member of any politicalorganisation?

ANSWER: I was a member of the African National CongressYouth League.

<UNKNOWN>: : Do I understand you correctly to state thenthat you killed this police officer in self-defence, is that yourversion?

ANSWER: Yes I believe it is true, that is what I said.

<UNKNOWN>: : I would still like you to just elaborate onthe matter of the political objective that you sought by doingso.   Could you just elaborate on that please?

JUDGE WILSON: : He hasn't said he had one has he, he saidhe acted in self-defence.

<UNKNOWN>: : Could you just explain to the Committee howdo you see, because to make out a case here today you have toprove that there's a political objective involved in the killingof this police officer.   Could you explain how you bring thisself-defence matter into line with a political objective, if thereis any?

ANSWER: The main issue is that I was not intending tokill a person at that moment, it wasn't my intention but the deceasedwas against the community not for the first time but on many occasions,myself included.   Everytime when we had mass actions, boycottingthe rent, organising stay-aways, you would find him together withother policemen against the community, assaulting small childrenand elderly people.   They didn't care about anybody who getsinjured or doesn't get injured.   My aim was not to kill I wasjust protecting myself.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE
EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE

<UNKNOWN>: : Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Jackson would youagree with me if I say that the change that you wanted to bringabout by killing this policeman was to have pure, unpolluted milk?

ANSWER: Can you please repeat your question sir, I donot understand?