Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-24

MR WILLS: I'll rephrase, Mr Chairman.  Had, surely it would have been a bonus for you if Shabalala had said, "Okay, I don't want to get killed, I'll join you guys and I'll tell you everything you want to know."  That would have been a useful thing to have occurred.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It would have been, yes Sir, but it didn't happen.

MR WILLS: Yes and had he agreed to go into your askari situation, it would have been a distinct benefit to you and in those circumstances, it seems to me that it would have been strange to put, to make- sorry if I rephrase - had he gone, if he co-operated with you and become an askari he might have been very valuable in your investigations of this Operation Vula?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: And it is unlikely in those circumstances that he would have been killed, that any person would have taken the decision to kill him.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I can't comment on that Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: No, but I mean, if, surely logic dictates, let's escape from this particular situation.  You capture an ANC person, you interrogate him or interview him, he decides to come over to your unit and assist you in your operations, you keep him on.  If he becomes uncooperative and you don't want, and he just indicates clearly that he's not going to co-operate, then the chances are that something else is going to happen to him, possibly he'll be killed.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's not necessarily how it happened always.

MR WILLS: Yes.  I'm looking at probabilities here.  If he had co-operated with you and told you at that stage that I am going to be one of your askaris, the chances are he wouldn't have been killed?  The probabilities are.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: The probability exists, yes.

MR WILLS: Yes.  So then, it seems likely that at some stage he would have been asked whether or not he wanted to become an askari or not, and I use the word asked very generously.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Well I never asked him that.

MR WILLS: No I'm not saying you did, but I'm talking about your experience as a Security Policeman, that's the probability.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It's a probability.

MR WILLS: Yes.  And the probabilities are that he refused, because he was killed.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's a probability, Sir.

MR WILLS: Yes.  So the probabilities are that his refusal to become an askari were one of the factors that led to his early demise?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, I don't think that was so, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You've been kept - Counsel is asking you again and again about him becoming an askari, isn't the normal practice, if you arrest, detain somebody like this, to talk to him, to see what information you can get from him, if he starts giving information, if he starts co-operating with you, only then do you suggest that he becomes an askari?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, yes.

MR LAX: Can I just be clear?  Your evidence so far is that you don't know anything about any of the questioning that happened to him, if it happened.  As far as you know, there was no questioning of him.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.  I didn't question Mbuso Shabalala at all.

MR LAX: And no questioning of him took place in your presence, that's been your evidence today.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, there was no sessions of questioning in my presence at all to Mr Shabalala, at all.

MR LAX: So when the C20 people questioned him, you don't know anything about that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I don't know if he co-operated or what the situation would have been.

MR LAX: You don't even know that they did, in fact.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I was informed that they did.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understood you and I may have been mistaken, you said, we were told not to question him.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, that's myself, du Preez and van der Westhuizen.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  The three of you who were in the unit.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes. Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: None of you, you were all told to leave him alone, not to question him.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Not to try to turn him.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, correct, Sir.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairman, just to set the record straight, I want to refer Mr Visser to paragraph 18 of Mr Botha's initial affidavit where he says one of the factors concerning the options relating to Mr Shabalala was the fact that he gives no co-operation.  It's listed as the first factor.  It's on page 18 of the first application to amnesty of the bundle.  Now, did...(intervention)

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, allow me Mr Chairman to apologise and to say that I stand corrected, but that wasn't his evidence here, but I read it here and it is under the heading of Mbuso Shabalala.  "Geleen geen samewerking.  Nie bereid om te getuig nie.  Nie bereid om beruggewer te word nie"  So it would appear that Botha did in fact talk to him about that.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Were you aware of any of the background of Mr Shabalala, as far as his involvement in the UDF goes?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, I wasn't Sir.

MR WILLS: Because you used the phrase in your second statement that he had the name "Jack".  Are you sure of that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I was informed of that by Mr Botha's debrief of Ndaba, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Well, my instructions are that Jack was the MK name given to Mr Shabalala's brother, Vuso Shabalala and that Mbuso Shabalala, the person you killed, his MK name was David.  Can you dispute that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I cannot dispute that, Mr Chairman.  I thought Mr Shabalala's brother was Rexel, that's the MK, or the code name that I knew.  But there were many names, some persons had four or five.

MR WILLS: Wee you under the impression that Mr Shabalala was operating outside the country or only inside the country?  Did you know at that stage?

MR LAX: Which Mr Shabalala?  Sorry, Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Sorry, the detained Mr Shabalala, the deceased.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I'd never heard of him operating externally.

MR LAX: Were you aware of him prior to this incident?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I'd heard of him vaguely via UDF desk discussions, but he'd never come to my attention in the MK  ...that I was responsible with.

MR WILLS: Now, you've heard the evidence of both Mr Botha and Mr Steyn.  you've also read the affidavits and so you are aware of the fact that they flew off to Pretoria on a number of occasions during that week from their evidence?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I'm aware from their evidence, yes.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Did you not know at the time that they flew to Pretoria from time to time?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I was a sergeant, I didn't know, I didn't have to know if they were flying to Pretoria.

MR WILLS: And you evidence seems clear on the point that at no stage did they call you together and appraise you of the fact that they'd got these instructions not to arrest by the 16th?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No I wasn't informed of that.

MR WILLS: Yes.  And I take it that you weren't informed of the extent to which this Intelligence travelled, that it went as far as the State President.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No.

MR WILLS: Or intended to go to the State President.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Sir I wasn't informed of that.

MR WILLS: Yes.  You had no knowledge of the fact that prosecutions would not be instituted against these people?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Sir, I wasn't informed.

MR WILLS: You had no knowledge that Col Zen de Beer had been appointed to investigate Operation Vula from a national perspective?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I became aware of that shortly, yes, that one I was informed of.

MR WILLS: And how did that information come about, can you tell us?