Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-14

CHAIRPERSON: We've got the judgment of the court dealing with your sentence.  It looks as if there were, in the trial, there were six charges against you and it appears as if charge number 5, count five 5 was for the robbery on Mr Basie Hladi of R100,00 in cash, 1 watch and a chain, and it appears as if the value of that is given as R380,00 in some of the other court documents and that you were sentenced on count 5 to imprisonment of 8 years.  Does that more or less agree with your recollection?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: I was sentenced to a number of charges, so I do not remember specifically how many years I received for this.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, sir, thank you.  Mr Buthelezi, when you went to attack Mr Hladi, did you possess the information that he was an informer already at the time?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did.

MR MAPOMA: Where did you get it from?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: When the police came looking for us and could not find us at our homes, luckily Gift was at his neighbour's house when this person came to point out Gift's home.  So, Gift came to me and told me that when the police came looking for him at his home he saw this person amongst them.
	As I was at home and the police came looking for me, I also saw it for myself and I saw that this person was an informer but I did not know where he stayed.  But when I went to attack him I was sure that he was an informer because I saw him in the presence of the police.

MR MAPOMA: When you saw him in the presence of the police, it was after you've already shot at him, is that not so?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: No.  Before I attacked him, that was at a different time.  Let me just explain this.  After about two weeks Basie Hladi was with the police and he went to point out Gift's house, Madlodlo and Madlodlo saw him.

ADV SIGODI: Just hang on.  You say it was after two weeks.  After two weeks of what?  After two weeks of having done what?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: After that of that policeman in January.  When the police came looking for me after two weeks, luckily they had gone to Gift's house and they had not found him there.  Vusi, one of our members, also told us that this informer, Basie Hladi, had been in the presence of the police such that we eventually investigated his whereabouts, his home and as time went on Madlodlo actually saw him at Twala Section where he was drinking.  That was about the 15th of March.  On that day Gift saw him and he was drinking where he was.  Therefore Gift came to me and reported, as I was the commander.
	There were these two pistols, one Tokaroff and the 9mm pistol.  So I gave Gift the Tokaroff and I carried the 9mm Baretta which I'd taken from the deceased.  On arrival at Twala I saw this person and I produced my firearm, and as I about to shoot him, a person known to me appeared.  Therefore I retreated because I would have had to shoot this other person because he might actually tell on me.  So we hid ourselves until such time that he came out.  So, when he came out of his home I shot him.  Luckily I missed him and he ran away.  
	Myself and Gift went to a shopping centre and on arrival there about 60 policemen appeared.  Gift was fortunate enough to escape and because I had this policy of fighting until the bitter end, so I shot at the police and they returned fire and I fired until I ran out of bullets and I was shot on my right leg, and eventually I was arrested and taken to the police station.

MR MAPOMA: No, what I want to get from you, you say you also saw him going with the police and you were convinced that he was an informer.  Now, what I'm saying is that at the time you saw him with the police, it was at the time after he reported your attempt to shoot at him, is it not so?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: No, it is not so.

MR MAPOMA: When exactly did you see him in the company of the police?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: I saw him when the police came looking for me at my home.

MR MAPOMA: Now, let's go to the shooting of Mr Mashamahite.  How many shots did you fire at him?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: One shot.

MR MAPOMA: And where were the others, your companions, at the time you shot at him?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: They were behind him.  They were just walking behind him.  I was facing him directly.

MR MAPOMA: So, are you saying you shot him from the front?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: The firearm you used?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: It was a Tokaroff pistol.

MR MAPOMA: The victim's family are saying that in court it was said that the deceased was shot from behind and at the time he was shot at the others were holding him.  Can you comment on this?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Please repeat your question.

MR MAPOMA: The view of the family is that at the time Mr Mashamahite was shot at, he was shot at from behind and at the time he was shot at your companions were holding him.  I want your comment on this one.

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: That is a mistake.  It's a mistake that he was being held.  Nobody was holding him.  Can I just explain what happened from the very start until Mr Mashamahite was shot?

MR MAPOMA: Please do.

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Actually we were at the Katlehong Police Station.  I had conducted reconnaissance from Monday to Thursday.  What happened was that we had not targeted Mr Mashamahite specifically.  We had targeted any policeman who would come out of the police station whether alone or in groups. 	Therefore on the 21st of January, the Thursday, we were standing nearby there and he came out at about four and he proceeded towards the direction of the swimming pool.  We immediately followed him and there were three of us.  And as he approached the swimming pool I decided to rush so that when he actually emerges out of that place I will be in front of him and Gift and the other person will be following him from behind.
	I rushed and as he came I drew my gun and I pointed my firearm at him.  And the only thing he attempted to do, he tried to grab me so I shot him and as he fell Eugene and Gift advanced.  One of them removed his gun and at that time I was on the lookout for anybody who might approach.  We removed that gun and retreated.

MR MAPOMA: Now, when you went to attack him, what was your intention?  Did you intend to rob him of his firearm or to kill him?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: The intention of attacking him was to disarm him as well as to kill him.

MR MAPOMA: Why would you kill him?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Because he was a member of the system.

MR MAPOMA: Was it your instructions to kill whatever member of system who comes your way?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Apart from Mr Mashamahite are there other members of the system that you killed?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: I thought we were still speaking on Mr Mashamahite's issue.  I don't understand why you're referring to other members of the system.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I appreciate that.  We are dealing with his particular murder, but let me explain to you.  The family are of the view that you shot the deceased as an individual and no other policemen.  Why him only if your view was to kill whoever policemen was there?  Would you explain this?