Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't know.

MR SEMENYA: Why did you allow Cebekhulu to assault the others then?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't know why I allowed him.

MR SEMENYA: Was it - and  you can correct me here, was it because you and him were giving information to the police?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Please repeat your question.

JERRY RICHARDSON: Was the reason that Cebekhulu was not assaulted, was because you and him were giving information to the police?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't have any information.

MR SEMENYA: But why don't you have information - I'm trying to have you assist us?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I am trying my best as well but I'm pleased because you are making Katiza as an example and I don't have Katiza in my notes or in my book - I have Katiza's book about his journey, I don't even read it - for your information and today I'm thinking of even burning it.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please

MR SEMENYA: I want to read you a section appearing in the notes by the police officers on page 16, there is a paragraph which is in Afrikaans and ...[inaudible] it says
"Richardson is willing to indicate the place where Lolo was buried.  According to him, he was murdered in a similar manner to that of Stompie Sepei and Cebekhulu had also been present"
Did you tell the police that Cebekhulu was present when either Lolo was buried or Stompie was killed?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't have any information.

MR SEMENYA: This fanciful answer of yours - did you give this information to the police or not?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Do you mean Pretorius?

MR SEMENYA: Did you give this information to the police or not?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No.

MR SEMENYA: I will read to you again what appears on page 14 of the same document
"According to Mr Richardson, he had been an informant for the former security police.  At a certain stage he provided information to the security branch which indicated that two trained MK soldiers were hiding away at his home.   A promise of R10.000-00 was then made to him should his information prove to be true.
...{inaudible]

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't know that, is my thumb print there or is my signature on that document?

JERRY RICHARDSON: ...[inaudible]  told us you said some of these things.  It continues to say
"Stompie Sepei visited him at home later on the same day, he also saw these two MK members"
So here you say that the Stompie Sepei came the same day these two cadres were killed, that's right is it not?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I have no knowledge thereof.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] if Stompie came to your house on this fateful day, what do you mean - you don't have knowledge?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I say I don't know.  I will keep on saying: "I don't know, I don't know".

MR SEMENYA: So, you're not prepared to answer my questions?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I did say to you that I didn't want to answer any questions and I'm telling you straight now, that I don't want to give answers when I can only answer to George Bizos, not to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.  Mr Richardson, I don't know what to say to you now because what you are doing now is not assisting even you and us.  You see, we can't let go of you because we have this information that we want - invaluable information that we want.  Please acknowledge the fact that Mr Semenya is a judicial officer and he's doing his duty, he's not just sitting there because he is Semenya and he is Black.  No English translation.  And can you try and help us and answer the questions.

JERRY RICHARDSON: Mr Chairperson, I am requesting from you directly now - I'm saying that I won't answer any questions put by Semenya.  You can go ahead and take drastic steps against me, I won't reply to anything he will say from now onwards because there is no truth in the whole thing.  He reads the paper, why would one read the paper?  Please go on ahead and take steps against me, I'm not answering him anymore.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.

MR RICHARD: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, why don't you?   Let's have a 5 or 10 minute adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Minister?

DR BORAINE: Which one?

CHAIRPERSON: Please just sit down, thank you.  Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Thank you Chairperson.
 Mr Richardson ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SEMENYA: Was Stompie Sepei in your house on the day the two cadres were killed?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No, he never came to my house.

MR SEMENYA: Are you able to give us any reason why Colonel Hesslinga would say you said that to him?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't know.

MR SEMENYA: You can't think of any reason why?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No, I don't have any reason.

CHAIRPERSON: There are two or three seats up here in front.

MR SEMENYA: The report goes on to say
"It was then generally accepted that Stompie had provided the information to the security branch and that that had been the main reason for the killing of Stompie"

MR SEMENYA: That the reason Stompie was killed was because he had given information to the security police.

JERRY RICHARDSON: I have no knowledge.

MR SEMENYA: That is not the reason.

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't have any knowledge.

MR SEMENYA: You lack knowledge of what?

JERRY RICHARDSON: What you've read to me just now, I bear no knowledge.

MR SEMENYA: You don't know why Stompie was killed?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I know why Stompie was killed.

MR SEMENYA: Did you say this to the police though?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I don't remember.

MR SEMENYA: If they have it the way they do, they would have been quoting you correctly?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I could quote them right or wrong and refer them to my records in the Court of Law.

MR SEMENYA: Earlier in your evidence though, you say that there were two young men that came to your house before Lolo and Sibuniso, is that right?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Please repeat your question?

MR SEMENYA: Earlier in your evidence you say that there were two boys - as you call them, who came to your before Lolo and Sibuniso.

JERRY RICHARDSON: Yes, there were two boys who came.

MR SEMENYA: One of them was Stompie, is that correct?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No, there's nothing like that.

MR SEMENYA: Who were they?

JERRY RICHARDSON: Those are the two that I knew and, that I spoke to.  I heard ..[inaudible] telling me that one of those boys is his brother - pointing at one of the boys - the two, Lolo and Shabalala.

MR SEMENYA: Let us talk a little bit about the team.  In a statement given on the 20th of February '89 and which has your thumb print - I don't know whether I should give you a copy to verify.

JERRY RICHARDSON: That will please me.

MR SEMENYA: Do you recognise that statement Sir?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I was double-checking on the thumb print.

MR SEMENYA: What's the answer to my question?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I saw the thumb print.

MR SEMENYA: Is the statement yours Sir?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No.

MR SEMENYA: So you mean the thumb print is not yours?

JERRY RICHARDSON: You see, I want you to say that so I can deny it.

MR SEMENYA: Is the thumb print yours Sir?

JERRY RICHARDSON: No, it is not my thumb print.

MR SEMENYA: So, the statement is not yours?

JERRY RICHARDSON: If the thumb print is not mine, it's obvious that the statement is not mine as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just find out from yourselves, was this a statement that Mr Richardson gave?

MR PIGOU: Chair, it's a custody statement taken - I believe, by Lieutenant Dempsey on the 20th of February 1989.

MR RICHARD: Mr Chair, if I may interject.  With the greatest respect to Mr Semenya, I doubt whether any one of us could recognise our own thumb print so it's not as if it's a hand signature.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but does he recall or can he recognise the statement?