Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-05

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: Yes, the statement about the money by the police, you see here we were being beaten up.  When we got into the shop, Moses Motapo did not speak to these people about money or anything, he just opened fire and I followed suit and the aim was not to take money because he didn't say anything to these people about lying down and giving us money.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: My question is simple, Mr Mhlongo.  Are these your words?  Did you say to Mr Steenkamp the Chief Magistrate of Tzaneen,
"We could not get money to take"?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: I would agree and disagree with that.  I cannot recall because there are so many Magistrates that I spoke to at the time and I was under interrogation, so that I was not conscious of many things that I was doing at the time.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: I want to refer you to - your co-applicant also made a very lengthy statement and according to his statement on page 77 of the documents handed to us, Mr Chairperson, paragraph 25, you co-applicant said, and I'm going to read to you in Afrikaans
"On the 11th of February we went to Turfloop very early.  We went to go and observe the Standard Bank and then to rob it."
So you wanted to go to the Standard Bank at Mankweng, Turfloop, to rob the Standard Bank, according to your co-applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say to that?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: I think he's the one who is better placed to respond to that but what I know is that, it was not within our intention to rob, there were so many things that we had to do.  Yes, we needed money.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Mhlongo, did you go to the Standard Bank Turfloop and did you keep the Standard Bank Turfloop under observation?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: Yes, we did.  Yes, we kept it under observation.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And I also want to refer you to paragraph 28 of your co-applicant's statement to the police on page 78 Mr Chairperson.
"When we arrived at the shop"
that's the shop at Roedtan,
"we found that it was closed"
and that's - your co-applicant then said to the police:
"I then said that we will try and rob a cafe in Roedtan"
What do you say to that?  According to your co-applicant you went to the restaurant in Roedtan, not to - for political purposes, but to rob the restaurant or the cafe, the shop.

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: There was no robbery committed at Roedtan.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr van der Heever is asking you is, what he's saying is that your co-applicant in this statement said that you went to Roedtan with the intention of robbing a shop.  We know that there was no actual robbery, but you went there with the intention to rob.

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: We went there because we wanted the money, as I've explained before that we did not have enough money and even the petrol was not enough in the car.  We went there because we wanted money, but when we got there, Moses did not tell those people that he was looking for money, he just fired.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So you went there to get money?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Now ...(intervention)

MR SIBANYONI: He also said because you did not have petrol in the car, was the purpose of robbing money to enable you to get petrol?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: Yes, we were looking for money to put fuel in the car.

CHAIRPERSON: These mikes are playing up.  Sometimes the one won't come on if the other's on.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Mhlongo, unfortunately we haven't got the full Court record of the trial by the Honourable Justice Botha, but on page 141, page 493 of his Sentence, he said, and maybe I just want to ask your comment otherwise I'm going to request the Honourable Commission to get a full copy of the proceedings of your trial
"In the meantime"
and I'm quoting, page 141 Mr Chairperson, the 7th line from the bottom:
'In the meantime he became disillusioned with the organisation and found himself in a position where he had no work."
Can you perhaps tell the Honourable Commission why the Judge has made this remark that you got disillusioned with the organisation, or is this just a remark by the Honourable Judge?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: I do not understand what that means.  If you can explain further, because I do not understand what is meant by being disillusioned.  Please repeat that phrase.

CHAIRPERSON: Well being disillusioned means that you're no longer happy with it, you're no longer satisfied with it, it's not fulfilling your expectations and I take it the organisation here referred to is the APLA.

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: Yes.  I did mention that but those were personal differences in our structure as APLA, but those differences wouldn't cause me to disrespect APLA, those were only personal differences.

CHAIRPERSON: Personal differences with whom?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: As the organisation, within the members of the organisation.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: So you were not happy with the organisation or certain members of the organisation, according to what you've said.

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: I was satisfied, I didn't have problems, but each and every person has got his own personal view and people would listen to one another, but the conflict in views doesn't necessarily mean that there is a serious conflict in the organisation, but there would be issues or ideas that we wouldn't agree upon, but then that wouldn't necessarily mean that I wouldn't involve myself in the operations as an APLA member.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Who gave you instructions to go to a shop at Roedtan, or a cafe, restaurant at Roedtan, Mr Mhlongo?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: Moses Motapo was the one who issued the instructions because even when we were in exile he had been my Commander since then.  Even here inside he remained my Commander so he was actually issuing the instructions.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: ;   Mr Mhlongo, the young man you refer to, who fired the shot at the young man seated next to me, who was plus minus 14 years of age on that particular day?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: I did, I fired a shot.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: And during the trial have you noticed that he is partially disabled because of that injury he sustained on that day?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: During the trial I couldn't see him.  Even now I cannot identify him, but I heard from the other person that this person is still alive.  Yes, he is crippled but I couldn't identify him then.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Mhlongo, I've already questioned you about the bank at Mankweng, or Turfloop as it's also called.  You also went to Lebowakgomo to try and rob.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you please just spell that name for me?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Lebowakgomo, Mr Chairperson.

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: Yes, we did go to Lebowakgomo to reconnoitre the place and I have already mentioned that we didn't have enough money, but we did not go there to rob as criminals, but all we needed was the money in order to further the objectives of APLA.  It's not that we wanted to go there and rob the bank and get the money that we didn't even know what to do with the money, but we knew that we were going to use the money in our structure.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: But I want to read to you the statement your colleague, your co-applicant has made.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you give a reference please?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: Paragraph 26, page 78 Mr Chairperson.  I'm sorry.  I'm going to read to you the whole paragraph.
"When we arrived there, I went to the Post Office.  Moss, Zweli and Silo waited in the car.  In that same complex there was a Standard Bank.  When I went back to the vehicle, Moss told me that while they sat there waiting for me, two vehicles arrived and dropped off money at the Standard Bank.  He also told me that one day we must come back to rob the bank."
Is that correct?  You must come back at a later stage to rob the bank?