Human Rights Violation Hearings — Karoo — 1996-10-09

MS SEROKE: Thank you ma'am.  I want to question Solani.  This van that was full of blood.  Where was this blood from.

UNKNOWN: This was people's blood.  People that was shot in the township.  Because as they had put us in the van, they had told me that I was going to sleep in the van, because this blood belongs to dogs, your dogs, we have shot them in the township.

MS SEROKE: Were they trying to scare you, saying that this blood belongs to people, people that had been killed.

UNKNOWN: They were not scaring us, they were giving us facts, because this had happened.  I was not there when this happened, but they were telling me facts that they had shot people in the township.

MS SEROKE: Thank you.

ADV POTGIETER: [Indistinct] had said that when you were at the police station, you saw Patrick sitting next to you at the police station.  Is that correct?

UNKNOWN: I met Patrick at the police station. That is so.

ADV POTGIETER: Have you witnessed any assaults on Patrick while you were there at the police station?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I would meet with Patrick now and again.  What they did to Patrick, they had done to me too.
ADV POTGIETERNow you say you met him now and then.  Did you see any assaults being perpetrated on him or did you see injuries on his body or did he tell you about assaults.  What happened?

UNKNOWN: We were beaten together,  assaulted together.

ADV POTGIETER: [Indistinct]

UNKNOWN: Yes sir.

ADV POTGIETER: Can I just ask you to move the mike to Ms Gcanga.  Just one issue ma'am.  You said that you were afraid to take Patrick for medical treatment, because if you do that the next thing that happens is that the police come and pick up or pick the person up again.

MARTHA MLAWULI: Yes, it is so.  I was very scared.

ADV POTGIETER: That was what was going on at that stage.  If you go to a doctor for treatment, you come outside, there is a police van waiting for you.

MARTHA MLAWULI: That was the situation.

ADV POTGIETER: As if there was some co-operation between the doctors and the police, because it appears as if the doctor or the doctor's staff would notify the police if somebody comes for treatment who was injured in a political situation.  Would that be a fair summary of the situation?

MARTHA MLAWULI: Well, it might have been so, because that's what would happen.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much ma'am.

MS SEROKE: Martha, you said Patrick was not healthy, even from an early age.  What then happened after all this.

MARTHA MLAWULI: His health deteriorated.  He is mentally disturbed to this day.  He does not work.  He does not do anything.  He's just in the township.  Sometimes he does not even know who he is.

MS SEROKE: Have you tried to get him a disability grant.

MARTHA MLAWULI: I thought of that and I tried to get it.

MS SEROKE: Is he on this disability grant.

MARTHA MLAWULI: Yes, he is.

MS SEROKE: In your statement what you not said now, you have not mentioned, you said that you accosted the Casspir and made them stop.  I appreciate that, because it is only a mother's love that could bring about, evoke such determination.  Thank you for that ma'am.

MARY BURTON: I just want to ask one question of Mr Gcanga please if you could pass the microphone again.  Mr Gcanga I just want to make quite sure that our papers are all correct here.  In the written statement that was typed after you made it, it says that you are currently staying at number 12 Phatsha street and then it said Knysna. Is it Knysna or is it Kuyasa or Kayasa?

UNKNOWN: No, I stay in Colesberg, not in Knysna.

MARY BURTON: [Indistinct] of Colesberg.

UNKNOWN: In Knysna.

MARY BURTON: No, no is there a township in Colesberg, what is the township where you stay, was the are where you stay.

UNKNOWN: Kuyasa.

MARY BURTON: [Indistinct] was reading Kuyasa.  They read Knysna and typed Knysna by mistake in the statement.  So I am just going to correct it.  So it will say number 12 Phatsha street, Kuyasa.  O.K., thank you.

UNKNOWN: Yes ma'am it is so.

MARY BURTON: Yes, I did correct that.  Thank you very much.  I would just like to say to all of you thank you very much for coming today.  Two young men who had a really terrible experience which has affected your lives right through until now and we hope that from now on things will be better for you.
That it will have helped you a little bit to talk about your experiences, but we also realise that you need help, that you need to be able to find work or in the case of Patrick to be able to obtain a disability grant and we will see what can be done to help to point you in the right direction.  We really are grateful for you for coming today and we just want to ask if there is anything that you want to say finally before you leave.  Mr Gcanga you want to add anything.  Ms Mlawuli you want to say anything else.

MARTHA MLAWULI: I have nothing else to say.  Thank you very much indeed then.

MARY BURTON: Mr Gcanga you want to say something.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I have something to say.  Can I talk now?  I request of the Truth Commission please investigate.  I want to know the perpetrators.  Again I will request the Truth Commission.  My parents have spent a lot of money on me.  I go to the doctor.  Nobody gives back that money.  Could you help me with my treatment with the doctors?  Thank you.

MARY BURTON: Mr Gcanga, let me explain that what the Commission is able to do is not in fact give out funds to for instance as you say reimburse your parents for their medical expenses with you.  At the end of the procedures, we will write a report which will recommend to the President and the Government steps that should be taken and it would be that some compensation the medical treatment might be one of those steps.  
We don't know at this stage what that will be.  At the same time we also have our reparations and rehabilitation committee which can in some cases intervene to give urgent interim assistance and it is possible to make application for such assistance.  So in the meetings that you will have after this hearing, we will explore opportunities of what can be done. Thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.