Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Political activity I remember of one person especially that was killed there and I was the Investigating Officer and the White detective on security branch went to jail for ten years.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And you were also head of the security branch there, especially the desk responsible for the ANC/PAC activity linked to the Vlakplaas, is that correct?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I was the founder of Vlakplaas, but not for what you might think what happened there.  I am very glad you asked me that question.  I can tell you now why Vlakplaas was founded.  Because I realised I had a lot of experience in the then Rhodesia and in Namibia and I found that many of the people, whether it's ANC, PAC, it doesn't matter, Afrikaans organisations, they are not really with all their heart in the struggle, and you will find that once a man has been, especially you referring to Vlakplaas, once
EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
16 J J VIKTOR
he's returned to South Africa he's very glad to be back here and once you talk to him you will find that a lot of them there are not interested in the struggle anymore.  And my idea was why must a man go to jail for maybe 10, 15 years just because he went out for military training.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So you changed them?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Just one second.  No I didn't change him, he had his own mind, I didn't change him.  And why, as I say send the man to jail for many years, he's just gone out for military training, so as a detective, as a policeman surely I can use him much better.  He's been out in the camps there, in Angola or wherever in Africa or overseas, he knows who went with him to the camps.  And I can assure you the more unsophisticated people they could remember 200 to 250 people who were in training with them.  He will give you his name, where he came from, what camps he was in, so that was my idea.  As I say I didn't think I was called here to report or to explain to the Commission about Vlakplaas, but seeing that you've asked now I can tell you, that is how I founded Vlakplaas, to give that man a place to stay and of course to make use of his knowledge.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: General it's important for us to find out about your past role because it tells us who you are, so that history is very important.  I find it interesting the way you are justifying the existence of Vlakplaas and in fact it is important for us to understand a bit more about your thinking as far as your using of these men was concerned.  You say that you used these men, I know that we are not about Vlakplaas here ...(intervention)

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: You use his knowledge I said.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Well it's an interesting way of
EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
17 J J VIKTOR
putting it to use his knowledge, but essentially you use the man, or the man that you got back there.  And this is very significant for us especially since we've got records that Dirk Coetzee who is now appearing before the Truth Commission was reporting to you, so what kind of man are you?  I mean you came to the Ciskei, you've got this history, you've got these beliefs and you are very blandly declared to this Commission that this is how things were, you know this was not politics ...(intervention)

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: What things which went way?

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Well you just explained to us that this is how things were, these men came back, instead of sending them to jail you decided to use them for your own benefits, now we know ...(intervention)

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I didn't say staying in jail, I said instead of sending him to jail.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I don't think we should be involved in polemics really, what you have said to this meeting here ...(intervention)

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: You know in giving evidence one should really check on what words were used, but Mr Chairperson I don't want to get into any arguments, you are the Commission here, but funny enough the questioner didn't ask me for how long I was at Vlakplaas.  She asked me for how long I was in Soweto, but I founded Vlakplaas at the end of '79, and I left Vlakplaas at the end of '80 and I never went back there again.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: But you are giving us the rationale for Vlakplaas so it is important, more than that ...(intervention)

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: You asked me about it.
EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
18 J J VIKTOR

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: More than that you are giving us more information about the kind of way in which you think.  But nevertheless we should move on now.  What I really want to find out from you is having come to the Ciskei, sent by the South African Government when you had retired with that kind of history, how did you see your role in the Ciskei?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I think it's not with that sort of history behind me that I was sent to Ciskei, I think I was known in the Police as a very strict disciplinarian and I was a no-nonsense officer, and maybe that is what was needed here, and that is why I came here, well maybe that is why I was asked to come here, not because of my history of Vlakplaas or wherever.  If you went through Soweto, which is a tough place, with very good policemen there too, then I think you can go anywhere in the world.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you, I am really quite fascinated by your attitude and I realise also that you go through phases of anger and you know very strong emotion about these issues.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: No, no anger.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Which is quite interesting.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: No, no anger, maybe Mr Chairperson seeing that you are so interested in my past and that is why I have certain attitudes, maybe then I should ask you as a panellist in the Commission about your past and what is your attitude then towards these things.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: My role here is to find out the truth from witnesses who come, but part of the truth is establishing where the witnesses come from, so that is my role.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Good.
EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
19 J J VIKTOR

MR POTGIETER: Thank you Pumpla.  General you have obviously testified many times in court, you've been an officer for 48 years I think you said.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: No I said over 44 years.

MR POTGIETER: Over 44.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Ja.

MR POTGIETER: So I mean you've been through the mill if I might put it that way.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I think so.

MR POTGIETER: You know what it's all about to give evidence.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Yes I have always believed Sir that, and that I've learnt from a very old officer when I was a young policeman, that there is no rope strong enough to hang the truth.

MR POTGIETER: And you also know the procedure so I don't need to explain that to you at all.  In fact I am going to Dr Ramashala, she has indicated to me some time ago she has got some questions, over to you.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: General I want to make sure that I do not misunderstand you.  Would you describe again the role that you say you played on that day.  I am of the understanding that you say you delegated.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: No, what I did say I delegated my powers, I mean you don't expect the Commissioner to go and sit there and really go into detailed arrangements for an operation like that.  And as I have explained Brigadier Ngcobo and Major Simms they were the two people in charge down there, but I went there as moral support.  There were only a handful of policemen there, and I went there for moral support for these guys that they see the Commissioner
EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
20 J J VIKTOR
doesn't sit in the office and they face maybe an angry crowd here.