Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1999-10-18

MS PATEL: Mr Luff, can you tell us that at the time when you were called to the municipality buildings or the administration buildings as you referred to them, what was the lighting in that vicinity at the time, on that evening?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: The light situation, the lighting was very bad and if I remember correctly, there was a single light which was some distance away from the hall and which gave some light.

MS PATEL: You estimated the crowd of stone throwers at the hall to be about 15 people, can you tell us from what distance you gauged this?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: They were about 30 paces away from us.

MS PATEL: Can you tell us from your observation at the time, what the group or who the group comprised of, were they generally  young people or adults or can you not comment on that?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: I really cannot remember, and I cannot comment on whether they were youths or adults or whatever.  I simply know that there was a group of about 15 people.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Can you recall whether this group was being led by any specific person or persons?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: Yes, as I have already testified, the person wearing the light green shirt, continually pushed himself into the foreground.   I don't wish to say thereby that he was indeed the leader of the group, but it seemed to me to be the case at that stage.

MS PATEL: For how long did you observe this group before you shot at them?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: I cannot say exactly how long it was, but it was some time.

MS PATEL: Would it be half an hour, ten minutes, 15 minutes, an hour, could you just give us a rough estimation of how long?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: As I have said, I simply cannot say how long it was, it was a short while.  It definitely wasn't as long as half an hour.

MS PATEL: Can you recall the dress of any of the other members of the group?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: No.

MS PATEL: Why is it that you remember specifically what William Dyasi was wearing that evening?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: The first time that this group appeared, he simply, he was quite noticeable because of the light coloured clothing that he was wearing and thereafter, I specifically watched him.

MS PATEL: The rest of the group, you are saying you concentrated on him because he had light coloured clothing only?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: And because he was always the one who came forward first.

MS PATEL: How many of the others in the group, threw stones, can you recall?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: No, I cannot remember that.  All I know is that there were a lot of stones being thrown and they were certainly not being thrown by only one person.

MS PATEL: Can you recall whether the person in the light coloured T-shirt at any stage, ever said anything to the group that was standing there?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: The group was about 30 paces away from us, so I couldn't hear anything being said.

MS PATEL: And when you shot, you shot at him specifically?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: My second shot was fired directly at him.

MS PATEL: What was your intention when you shot at him?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: to protect the community hall and to prevent the crowd from causing further damage to the community hall.

MS PATEL: Your intention was not to kill him at that stage?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: No, not at all.

MS PATEL: Merely to injure him?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: Excuse me?

MS PATEL: Merely to injure him?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: That is correct.

MS PATEL: All right.  Can I just refer you to, honourable Chairperson, grant me a moment, I just want to find the reference, in the statement that you have prepared for the inquest, it is found on page 15 to 17 of the Bundle, honourable Chairperson, you state there, let me just count, it is about eight lines from the bottom of page 15, you state there that
"...  I fired in the direction of the black man wearing a light shirt, since that was where the greatest concentration of people were."

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: That is correct.

MS PATEL: That is very different to you shooting specifically at Mr Dyasi because he appeared to be the leader of the group, don't you agree?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: He was in front, he was a couple of paces ahead of the group.  That is why I said I fired at him specifically.

MS PATEL: Well then how do you explain your statement here that you fired in that direction, because the majority of the stone throwers were where he was?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: I don't understand because in the statement it said I fired in the direction of the black man wearing a white shirt, since the majority of the people were in that area, so in the statement I said I fired in the direction of the man wearing the light shirt.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but the question revolves around the reason why you fired like that.  Here the reason why you fired at that direction is simply because the majority of the stone throwers were there and Ms Patel's question is that as far as she is concerned, that differs from your evidence today where you said that you fired in order to neutralise the leader of the group.  Do you understand the distinction and the point she is making?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: I am trying to understand, but what I am trying to say is that I fired at the person in the light coloured shirt and the group were concentrated in one group, but my intention was to fire at the person in the light coloured shirt, and that is why I specifically mentioned it in the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Thank you honourable Chairperson. In what direction did the group disperse after the shots were fired?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: From where I was standing, well, I cannot say whether that was in a northerly or southerly direction, but they ran away from us.

MS PATEL: Okay.   If you can give me an indication, where is Tusa Lane from where you were, is it behind or in front or ...

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: I don't know Zweletemba very well, but I know the direction of the road in which they ran away, was immediately in front of us.

MS PATEL: Sorry, I didn't get that, did you say that they dispersed towards the road in front of you?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: Yes.

MS PATEL: Because that is the street that you say you ran down 200 metres?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: That is correct.

MS PATEL: Now, my instructions from Mr Dyasi is that when he found his son William, William had said to him that he was shot as he was coming down Butsani Lane and it was close to the corner of Tusa Lane and Butsani Lane?  What is your comment on that?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: Chairperson, I am assuming that that is the road that runs directly in front of the hall?

MS PATEL: Yes, it comes passed the police station if my bearings are correct?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: Yes.  It is correct like that, that is the road where he was shot at.

MS PATEL: He states further that his son said to him that he was walking down Butsani Lane and had seen two policemen and had turned around and started running because he was afraid that the two policemen were coming towards him and so he ran and that is when he was fired on?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: No, that I deny most vehemently.  I cannot vouch for what the son told his father, I cannot comment on that, but I deny vehemently that we wanted to arrest him and then shot at him.  We had watched him for quite some time, and then only did we shoot.

MS PATEL: Mr Dyasi states further to me that when the son ran, he had intended to go through the premises that he was eventually found at and he was going to scale the fence at the back and then make his way back home, but because he was injured so badly, he couldn't scale the wall and that is how he ended up at the home of Mrs Hardy?

MICHAEL PHILIP LUFF: Once again, I don't know what the son told his father.