Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

JOHN RADEBE: Any member of the community at that time knew that those people were enemies, because we were not hiding this information for us or from the community.  The community would receive information from us.  We are going to tell them that on a particular, we saw these people who have diverted and took another direction, because tomorrow you you'd shoot the person and then the community would be surprised why.  That is why I said the community were seeking them.

MS THABETHE: When you had killed Hapile Ndumo, it's a follow up about my question of the community, since the community had wanted them, wouldn't the community then be glad that you got them and managed to shoot them?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, they were satisfied.  The community was satisfied.

MS THABETHE: Now can you explain to the Committee Members, if the community was satisfied and you had the approval of the community, why then, after you had committed this act, did you see a need to get away from the community?

JOHN RADEBE: Within the community there were those who were working hand in glove with the police.  They would dress in the ANC uniform, but they would work hand in glove with murder and robbery squad, so that the comrades would be arrested and be shot by the police.  That is why we had to get out of Sebokeng, because I don't know the person who would sell me.

MS THABETHE: Mr Radebe I don't quite get you because you say the community.  I asked you who in the community wanted Elsie and Hapile.  You said everyone in the community.  Now I don't understand why then you would feel unsafe in a community that wanted these people dead in the first place.  Why you would need to get away from such a community who were satisfied with what you did.

CHAIRPERSON: Except that the police were not satisfied.  Is that not clear Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Yes Madam Chair, but he had the support of the community in which he lived in.

CHAIRPERSON: Does having a support of the local prevent the police from investigating and arresting a person, simply because he has the support of the community?

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair with due respect, I didn't think that was his evidence, that he was afraid of being investigated and arrested.

MR LAX: Of course he was, that was the whole issue.  He was worried about informers.

CHAIRPERSON: He was scared of being arrested by the police.  That's his evidence in chief.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  Was it common cause that if SDU members had killed somebody they would run away from that area and not continue to do such activities?

CHAIRPERSON: Was it common for SDU members to run away from their local communities after committing such deeds as you had committed?

JOHN RADEBE: I would say they were not running away from the community but they were running away from the police, because I would see the person in the absence of the police.  In the  evening vanderBijl Park murder and robbery squad would know the identity of the person responsible for that murder, and it was difficult to think, or to suspect, that a certain person is responsible for informing.

CHAIRPERSON: Confine yourself to questions put to you.  Don't go outside the ambit of a particular question.  So you are saying it was common for SDU members to run away?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And seek refuge in different areas from where the crime had been committed?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  Mr Radebe, with regard to the shooting of Elsie on the cheek, you said you had an intention to kill her when you shot her.  Is that correct?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: And then she ran away.  She went to a 2-roomed house where you requested the people of that house to take her out of the house.  Is that correct?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETHE: Then you thereafter took her to Samuel Neti's house.  Is that correct?

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct

MS THABETHE: My question is, since you already had an intention to kill her, you know when you shot her on the cheek, why didn't you kill her when she came out of that room?  Why did you still took her to Samuel Neti's house?

JOHN RADEBE: I don't understand the question.

MS THABETHE: The question is, when you shot her on the cheek in the tavern, you already had an intention to kill her then, isn't it?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: And then she ran away into a house.  You took her out of that house isn't it?  My question is why didn't you kill her thereafter immediately?  Why did you still proceed to take her to Samuel Neti's house?

JOHN RADEBE: I did not have ammunition.

MS THABETHE: Where do you know Hapile and Elsie from since in your evidence you had said that you worked for the Small Farm unit and not for the unit in the township?

CHAIRPERSON: I think at one stage he was a member of the Small Farm unit of the SDU's then in 1993 and approximately two to three months before the incident in respect of Ndumo, he became a member of the Zone 12 unit.

MS THABETHE: No that was not the evidence Madam Chair.  The evidence I remember you asking him, when did he become a member of the unit after Hapile was killed, he said yes, after Hapile was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: His evidence in this regard is conflicting.  He gave two conflicting versions.  When I questioned him then it was when he was in the middle of his viva voce evidence.  That's the evidence he gave.  However, towards the end of his evidence in chief his evidence was that he became a member of the Zone 12 unit two to three months before the Elsie Mokoena and the Hapile Ndumo incident occurred.  Maybe you may want to get his explanation as to the contradictory versions he has given.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair I'm indebted to you.  Mr Radebe in your viva voce evidence when the Chairperson asked you a question as to when you became a member of an SDU in the Zone 12 Sebokeng township, you said you only became a member of the SDU Zone 12 unit after Hapile Ndumo was killed.  Whereas later on in your evidence you indicated that you became a member of the Zone 12 SDU unit before, three months before Hapile was killed.  Can you explain why you have given contradictory evidence in that respect?

JOHN RADEBE: There was no mistake.  I became a member of the Zone 12 self defence unit two to three months before the incident, and I did not know them then.

MS THABETHE: No that's not my question.  My question is, earlier on you said, I remember very well your evidence, you said you were a member of a SDU unit in Small Farm when Hapile Ndumo was killed, it's only after she was killed that you became a member of Zone 12 SDU incident.  Don't you remember saying that?

JOHN RADEBE: May you please repeat your question.

MR LAX: Mr Radebe it's really quite simple.  You're confronted here with a contradiction.  In the first part of your evidence you testified that you were a member of the SDU in Small Farm.  We confirm from you whether, when this incident took place you were a member of that Small Farms unit, you were clear that it was the Small Farms unit.  You then indicated that you joined the Zone 12 unit sometime after this incident, because, as you put it, there were problems at Small Farms.  Later on in your testimony you then said something quite different.  You said that you had been a member of the Zone 12 SDU for about two to three months when this incident took place.  Do you understand that?  Now there is a contradiction there.  Do you understand that there's a contradiction?

MR LAX: Just answer me yes or no.  Do you understand that there is a contradiction there?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: Now please explain the contradiction.  That's the question you are being asked.