Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: It was on the same day when we arrived at the shooting range and it was the same day when we went to the wives.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Was that the Monday?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Mr Chairperson I cannot precisely say what the day was.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Let's just take you back.  The Sunday or the Sunday evening the groups with the pipe bombs left, you say they did not return.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Are you saying it's the Sunday.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes the Sunday.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes well then it was the Monday Mr Chairperson that you're talking about when it occurred at the shooting range.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So you were already at the shooting range on Monday.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, if I can make my conclusion from what you say Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Mr Chair I wonder if this isn't a good time to adjourn?
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  There's one matter that we have to clear up and that is the question around Mr Koper Myburgh.  If the panel can remember he withdrew his application formally and I can see that he is still present.  I took it up with the legal representatives of the applicants.  If you can also remember Adv Van der Walt also withdrew as his advocate and Adv Prinsloo told me that Mr Myburgh considers himself the implicated person and that's why he can be here rightfully.
	I understood it that he consulted with Mr Myburgh and that position was then conveyed to me.  I then told Adv Prinsloo that I don't understand his position but I made it clear that he is not interested in the process as such and that therefore according to me - so I'm actually asking for a decision from the Committee and I was also requested by the prison services, there's certain costs and security matters and if he's not needed here, it would be better if he remained in prison.  If he's needed by one of the parties then at that stage an arrangement will be made for him to be brought here but in the mean time he must rather remain in jail.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Myburgh could you please come forward.  Is there any reason why you think you must be present here for the rest of this hearing?

MR MYBURGH: Yes Mr Chairperson I am being implicated by some of the applicants here and as they give evidence I make notes where I am implicated and incriminated.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you going to do about it?

MR MYBURGH: There could later be some actions that could be taken by myself.  Currently I'm planning certain actions.

CHAIRPERSON: It may be so but those actions that you are planning have got nothing to do with the Committee, or am I wrong?

MR MYBURGH: It has got.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you planning to do regarding the Committee?

MR MYBURGH: Well if the Committee can ensure that I receive all the records then it won't be necessary for me to be present.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not asking this, what are you going to do about the allegations, concerning the Committee?

MR MYBURGH: I can put it to you in this many words, I will act as a witness for some of the applicants and that the people who serve in front of this Committee and applied for amnesty are here, they are pawns in a game, they were manipulated and misused.  There will be further action taken to expose betrayal or elements of betrayal.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not worried about that, all that I would like to know is why do you think it is necessary for you to be here concerning this hearing?

MR MYBURGH: Well to hear where I am implicated and where some of the commanders are implicated or incriminated if I can say it in so many words.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes that's a private matter so you've got no interest in what happens in the hearing concerning the Committee and the Committee's work, is that not true?

MR MYBURGH: But I've got interest in what is being said.

CHAIRPERSON: What can you do about it?

MR MYBURGH: Like I said, actions will follow.

CHAIRPERSON: Concerning the Committee?

MR MYBURGH: No, concerning the allegations and statements that are made.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to come to the Committee and do something about what has been said?

MR MYBURGH: Not this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  He is then not needed at this hearing.  We adjourn - well I assume that the request came for only the present witness to be led out of order.  I would assume that we'd go back to the original plans.  If there's time to go on to another witness tomorrow.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman I know it's difficult and one doesn't want to stop the various legal teams presenting their cases in their best way, but we have a situation where we have ten applicants.  Each have made substantial applications setting out the facts of the applications.  We have spent the better part, if not the whole day, listening to the evidence in chief.
	I know in other hearings throughout the country in light of matters where the applicants have simply under oath confirmed what they've said in their applications, confirmed their statements and here and there embellished or enlarged, leaving the bulk of the work to the cross-examiner.  I plant it as a seed of thought that possibly on that basis we can get through ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) to insist on any applicant being led in a particular way.  If however there's a manner in which you can come to an arrangement amongst yourselves, that's your matter but the panel is not in a position to make any ruling in that regard.  Settled?  Now, is that all you want to raise?

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I simply raised it as a thought to consider before we adjourn, I didn't expect a ruling.  Thank you, I hear what the Committee has said.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll then adjourn until half past nine tomorrow.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION: 19TH JUNE 1998 - DAY 3

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] some confusion as to what the recent applicant is actually applying for.  Now hopefully that is sorted out in the near future but yesterday I sort of indicated to Mr Landman while he was cross-examining that he had made his point.  I don't know if that is the reason why he immediately stopped his cross-examination.
	Now with the new developments it may be necessary for me to give him another opportunity if he so desires but that will depend on what the outcome of the investigation as to what the amnesty application is all about.
MICROPHONES SWITCHED OFF

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Chair I undertake to brief Mr Landman over the course of the weekend about developments that have taken place today and on his behalf I request that should it become necessary he be allowed to continue.

CHAIRPERSON: We can always recall the applicant.  Mrs Van Der Walt are you happy with that kind of arrangement?

MS VAN DER WALT: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie you are still under oath to tell the truth?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: (s.u.o.)

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: (con)
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Fourie, yesterday afternoon when we ended we were busy with the braaivleis fighters.  Let us leave that aspect there for the moment.  I would like to take you back, you were called up to Ventersdorp where you would establish your Volkstaat, approximately the 10th April.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: We were called up.  Could you please repeat your question?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: 10 April 1994 you were called up to Ventersdorp where you would establish your Volkstaat?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is true.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You then went to Cliffie Barnard's farm, was that Koesterfontein?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, Mr Chairperson it was only a few kilometres out of Ventersdorp.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But was that Cliffie Barnard's farm?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, as far as I heard.