Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-22

MR BERGER: Would it be correct to say that you wanted to kill everybody living in Boipatong?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: If I had that power I would do so.

MR BERGER: And would you say that that was the intention, not only of yourself, but of all the people who attacked Boipatong with you?  That was the desire.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I believe that all the people who went to Boipatong went there to kill, but I would not say what the individual intentions were.  I believe that all the people who went there went there to kill because our intention was to go there and kill.

MR BERGER: Your intention was to go there and kill everybody in Boipatong?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: If it was possible for me to kill all the people in Boipatong I would do so, but the people that I wanted to kill were these boys who belonged to the SDUs.  But I was happy that other people were killed as well, but if I had the power I would kill all the people.

MR BERGER: Why?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Because those people also wanted to kill my parents, so for that reason they ended up burning my parents' house and my parents were innocent, they didn't know anything about politics.  They were not involved in politics.
	So I left them and I went to KwaMadala hostel because I realised that if I continue living with them, my parents would be killed.  So they went there to kill my parents, so what I did is what they wanted to do to my parents.

MR BERGER: My question to you is, why did you want to and why did you kill the women and children and old people?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Because they also - they killed my father and they burnt my parents' home.  So in other words, when I went there I went there for revenge.

MR LAX: Sorry we didn't hear the translation of the first part of that answer, it was cut off slightly.  Would you just repeat it please, Mr Interpreter?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I went there to kill because they killed my parents, they killed my father and that is the reason I went there.  So the purpose of me going there was to revenge.

MR BERGER: But your father was living in Boipatong.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, he moved from Sharpeville to Boipatong.  When he died he was living at Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Mr Magubane, I don't understand you at all.  You told the Committee that your parents lived in Boipatong at the time of the attack, they are still living in Boipatong today, you told the Committee that your father was killed, can you explain that?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I didn't say that my father was killed, what I said is that my father died while he was living in Boipatong.  So the intention of going there to burn my parents' house was to kill my parents, that is why I did what I did.  If somebody did not help my father, he would have been killed.

MR BERGER: You've just told the Committee that your father was killed, are you now saying your father wasn't killed?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I did not say my father was killed, maybe you didn't hear me correctly.  They burnt the house and he was inside that house.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, when did your father die?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: He died around 1992.

ADV SIGODI: How did he die?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: He was ill.  I was told that he was very ill but I did not go there to see him.  I only learnt after the elections that my father was ill and as a result he died.

ADV SIGODI: He died before the massacre or after the massacre?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I think he died after the massacre because my younger brother died before my father, so my father died after my elder(sic) brother died.

MR BERGER: And when did your brother die?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is when the Boipatong people were buried.  He also died during that massacre.

MR BERGER: Your brother was killed during the massacre of the 17th of June 1992?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: When the people were killed in Boipatong who were buried, he died on the same day.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand the answer.  Was your brother killed during the attack?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Not during the massacre.  The people who were killed on the 17th, when they were buried by brother died on the same day of the burial of the people who died during the massacre.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, can you just clarify.  Did he die as a result of being attacked during the massacre or did he die of something else, your brother?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: He was attacked.

ADV SIGODI: During the massacre?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, he was attacked by the people who attended the funeral.  The ANC people who attended the Boipatong funeral service attacked him because he was chased out of the stadium and he died at Sondela.

MR BERGER: What was your brother's name?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: His name is Stanley Maganga.

MR BERGER: And it was after that that your father died?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: So which of your parents are still living in Boipatong?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is my mother and my sister, they are still living at Boipatong and my stepfather.

MR BERGER: I want to come back to the question of why you killed children.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I've already explained that those people who burnt my parents' house, even if they found children in that house they would have killed them as well.  The reason that made me to kill them, children, mothers and everybody is because I wanted to revenge.  Those people wanted to kill me, including my parents.

MR BERGER: So your motive for killing all the people that you killed was to take revenge for the burning of your parents' house?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: The situation was very tense then because we were hated because it was alleged we were members of the IFP, that is why I wanted to kill everybody.

MR BERGER: But your motive in killing everybody or in trying to kill everybody, was to take revenge for the burning of your parents' house?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And it wasn't just you who was killing everybody or wanted to kill everybody.  I want to refer you to your statement on page 91 which you confirmed yesterday.  Towards the bottom of the page you say
"We were actually looking for the SDUs and the comrades, however the group including me proceeded to attack everyone and everything."

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Who was in this group?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Mkhize was an Induna in this group.  We were so many, I cannot remember all the people who were in my group.

MR BERGER: Besides Mkhize, who else was in your group?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is the other boy from Zone 13.  I forget his name.  He was the one who had a 7.65.  That is the only one that I remember because he was always next to me.

MR BERGER: Was that Doctor?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, it's not Doctor, it's Smith.

MR BERGER: Yes.  You say Smith, Sipho Buthelezi, Thomas Sipho Lukhozi, Themba Mabote and Mkhize, you saw them firing shots?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Now were all of those people that I've mentioned part of this group that you referred to which proceeded to attack everyone and everything?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, they were all part of this group.

MR BERGER: And that was when women and children and old people were being shot and hacked and stabbed and killed?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, it happened that day because that is the only massacre, there was never another massacre.  So all those people were killed during that day.

MR BERGER: You had a number of people sharing a room with you at the hostel, am I right?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Were they also part of the attack?