Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-21

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman and Members of the Committee, that will be all the questions from my side but I want to bring this to the attention of the Members of the Committee that you will recall that we had, when Ginam Mkhize had testified, we had the family member from the Khumalo family who was accorded an opportunity to put questions to Ginam Mkhize.
	A similar request has been made by the family members again of the Khumalo family and I discussed this with them yesterday, that the incident is the same and they had that opportunity but they insisted that they wanted to be given this opportunity again because it's a different person but we finally came to a compromise that rather they write the questions and I put them to him on their behalf.  I need direction from the Committee as I've got a list of questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you can do that.  Would there be any objections to that Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: No, Mr Chairperson, we're committed to answer any questions from any member from the floor.  What I would like to suggest, I do see it's 1 o'clock and it is a taxing session for the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no I was going to suggest that I wouldn't be doing it now as it's past 1 o'clock.
	Mr Mpshe, then perhaps we can proceed on the basis that you have put to us now but we will do so after the lunch adjournment.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Perhaps Mr Chairman before we adjourn, another directive I want.  Another victim, Mr Bongani Msome also approached us, by us I mean me and my colleague, to do the same thing with reference to evidence by the current applicant and I also indicated to him that only if he touches on him, he'll only be allowed to ask questions only inasfar as that is concerned but I will take this up further with him again, to continue after lunch.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think we'd have to establish which incident was involved and whether Mr Mbambo was personally involved in that incident because if not I don't think it would really be appropriate but if so then, yes.  But we will at this stage take the lunch adjournment, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR MBAMBO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Sorry, could we have some quiet please?
	Mr Mbambo, you can take your jacket off if you wish. 
	Mr Mpshe you mentioned before the lunch adjournment that you were to put some questions that have been posed by the members of the Khumalo family and Msome family, thanks.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mbambo, I'm going to put questions to you on request by the Khumalo family.
MR MPSHE PUTS QUESTIONS TO MR MBAMBO ON BEHALF OF THE KHUMALO FAMILY
	They want to know as to whether Sergeant Khumalo was a true policeman doing his police duties properly or not?

MR MBAMBO: He was known as a very dedicated police.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What were the sources of information within the KwaZulu Police other than Captain M A Malinga or Masinga?

MR MBAMBO: Apart form the MSI information at the local leadership, that he discussed dockets with the ANC dockets.  There is nothing else to my knowledge.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now at that time of effecting the brutal killing of Sergeant Khumalo, the rank he was holding was that of a Sergeant whilst at the same time being a branch commander of such a big Murder and Robbery Unit controlling eSikhawini, Nthambanana and other places, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If then you say yes to the above question, the rank he was holding, was that the best he was deserving being a branch commander whilst his colleagues were holding higher ranks e.g. Captain Major, wasn't it showing hostility or any form of negativity by the local police management, including the Ulundi office?

MR MBAMBO: Yes that is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How many years did he serve in the police being a Sergeant?

MR MBAMBO: I don't know but I think it may have above 10 years.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If you had not been found guilty or convicted of certain criminal activities excluding my brother's assassination, as you were not charged, would you have disclosed the killing of Sergeant Khumalo or not?

MR MBAMBO: I would not be in the position to answer that question because things that led me to appear here happened after my arrest.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now had the TRC not been established to allow people to apply for amnesty as you are now doing, what else would you have been doing to rehabilitate yourself, get yourself to meet the victims or the next of kin of those killed and to establish a form of compensation to the bereaved?

MR MBAMBO: I would do this through the Court because statements that involve this case in the ITU, that simply means that the ITU was not investigating for the TRC but it was undergoing a Court investigation.  That was the route I would take to inform the Khumalo family as to how Sergeant Khumalo died and also furnish reasons thereof and also give names of people who were involved.
	Pertaining to the compensation to the Khumalo family I would go back to the IFP because the IFP is a bit organisation, strong with good finance of their own and also being government in this KwaZulu Natal Province.  Maybe this would have happened and I would plead that a trust be established to look into the needs of the people who lost families and members of kin during the time of the IFP's struggle, struggling for the success which they finally attained here in KwaZulu Natal.
	Because the IFP has contacts in foreign countries, asking for funds there, could have helped to assist the relatives of those who suffered.  I therefore do not see any other way through which I can help those who suffered.  I cannot do anything in particular myself as an individual but I know that with the assistance of the organisation, that is the IFP together of course with the ANC, I know that this can be a success because these people are victims of the two organisations.  That's the way in which I think these people could be helped.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you remember the instance when Bebe Biela was being arrested for cross questioning by the members of the Murder and Robbery Unit under the command of Sergeant Khumalo?

MR MBAMBO: No, I don't.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In expressing you dissatisfaction to eliminate Sergeant Khumalo, your main point of argument you raised was that there was not sufficient evidence, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: If you are referring to the meeting at Ulundi, yes we had a reason that I would like to state here.  We knew Sergeant Khumalo as a person who was close to the IFP leaders and he used to wear dust coats, the kind of overalls that are used by people working in factories and he would also wear inside or just beneath the overalls, this IFP T-shirt, a T-shirt that would have a picture of M G Buthelezi.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Then if your answer to that question is: "yes", this was then accepted by the hit squad hierarchy that you were going to monitor the movements of Sergeant Khumalo and if your findings were positive you should proceed with the elimination, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And again if that is how the position was to be, it is contradictory with Mkhize's evidence, Ginam Mkhize's evidence, who said himself and yourself did not have to do any investigation in implementing the killing.  Thus this gives a benefit of doubt that what you are telling the Committee is true.  In other words the question is that if you say the hierarchy of the IFP had instructed you to carry on in spite of the fact that you had indicated your dissatisfaction, it contradicts Ginam Mkhize's evidence who said that there was no need for investigation on your part in order to carry out the elimination, do you see that contradiction?