Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR BOOYENS: I am Mr Chairman.  Perhaps just one thing, I am not sure about the sequence it's subject to what the Commission says, but it's perhaps at this stage, seeing that he was in fact, my learned friend Ms Patel put quite a lot of, or she obviously had a long interview with the witness also before she cross-examined, I don't know whether as a matter of sequence because otherwise I don't want to end up in a situation where she now put certain things to him where I have then got to apply and things get even more disorganised.  Perhaps it might be more appropriate if she starts.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your view Ms Patel?

UNKNOWN: Learned Chairperson I think it would be more convenient if the applicants went because a lot of what I had covered with the witness was indeed covered in his evidence-in-chief, so I would prefer that the applicants proceed.

MR BOOYENS: I don't mind Mr Chairman.

JIMMY MBANE: (s.u.o.)

MR BOOYENS: Mr Mbane, if we can first just briefly refer to your background.  Would I be correct if I summarised it thus - that you were an enthusiastic and very loyal supporter of the ANC in the days when you went to Rhodesia and you went for training in various different countries.  Is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct, Sir.

MR BOOYENS: And in fact at the stage of your arrest in Kimberly you were as enthusiastic a supporter of the ANC.  Is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct, Sir.

MR BOOYENS: Now, how long after your arrest in Kimberly did you start giving information to the Security Forces?

JIMMY MBANE: It took me two to three days.

MR BOOYENS: And then you started, without holding anything back, you started giving information to the Security Forces?

JIMMY MBANE: I told them everything that I knew.

MR BOOYENS: So after, let's say give it the maximum, after three days, you opened up to the Security Forces and you changed...and you gave them all the information they needed.  Is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct, Sir.

MR BOOYENS: So after two to three days, there was no need for any duress, anything of that nature anymore.  Is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: That's not correct.  I was still a member of the ANC, although I did such things.

MR BOOYENS: I think we're at cross purposes.  You said you opened up after two to three days and told them everything they wanted.  So after two to three days, there was no need by the Security Forces to exercise any duress upon you anymore?  You were voluntary speaking?

JIMMY MBANE: They were torturing me, they were choking me, they were intimidating me.  Each and every method that they were using was applied on me.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, but leaving aside those methods, I haven't got any instructions on those, because I don't know who the people were, but after two or three days of torture, you started speaking.  Is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I told them everything.

CHAIRPERSON: If you told them everything you knew, so they would have been sitting listening to you and not needing to torture you anymore because you were telling them all you knew.  That's what you're being asked.
	Is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes they tortured me for two or three days, then I told them the truth.  That's what they wanted.
	After that three days, they didn't torture me again.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, yes, that's what I am getting at.  And so after that three days, it was not necessary to threaten you anymore, anything of that...you had basically made a clean breast of everything you knew and told them everything they wanted to know and even some things that you obviously volunteered to them, not so?

JIMMY MBANE: I told them what they wanted only.  I didn't tell them about things that they didn't ask.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, but the questions obviously would have been broad and couldn't have know exactly who was in a camp with you, for example.  They would ask who were in the camp with you and you would tell them, give them names or MK names, or identify photographs.  You didn't hold anything back?

JIMMY MBANE: I only answered the questions that they were asking.  I didn't tell them anything that they didn't ask.

MR BOOYENS: So, did you hold certain things back?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes there were some things that I didn't tell them.

MR BOOYENS: And did you, throughout your career, never tell them about that information?

JIMMY MBANE: Even now, they don't know some of the things.

MR BOOYENS: And those things that you held back are important things?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, they are important.

MR BOOYENS: Now, you had been a member of the, if I say a member of the South African Police, I use it in the broad sense of the word, I am talking about as an Askari or a collaborator of the police for how many years?

JIMMY MBANE: I started in 1984 until 1992.

MR BOOYENS: Eight years.  And throughout those eight years you never told the South African Police that you were working for, everything and you withheld certain important information from them.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: I didn't tell them everything.

MR BOOYENS: Why not?  You had important information, why didn't you tell them about it?

JIMMY MBANE: The reason was I was loyal to them, and our working relations were good and I told myself that I won't have to tell them again, because they can change the situation totally.

MR BOOYENS: Well you had information that you said would have been important to the police, not so?  That would have improved the working relationship if you in fact opened up and told them everything you knew, volunteered it.

JIMMY MBANE: I want to say Mr Chairperson, in that situation they were only torturing people, so I realised that if I can tell them, they are going to torture me again, because once before they have broken my jaw...

MR BOOYENS: Mr Mbane, are you seriously suggesting that if after six years you went to Mr de Kock and you say, you know when I was trained in Russia XYZ or when I was in Zambia XYZ happened, that they would torture you then.
	Is that what you are suggesting?  I just want to make sure we understand each other.

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, that's what I am saying Sir.

MR BOOYENS: Oh, I see.  So because you were afraid after six years of loyal service to the police, you pulled the trigger a number of times on their behalf, that you would still be tortured and treated badly by them if you came out with additional information which was important to the police?

JIMMY MBANE: I would like to clarify this to the Commission.  This is how we were working.  If you can give me permission to clarify this.

MR BOOYENS: As long as it's an answer to my question, I think you can carry on.  Subject to what the Chairman says.

JIMMY MBANE: In that place we were working like prisoners of war.  They were torturing us on a daily basis.  They would take us to the shooting range and pretend that they were going to shoot us.  That is the manner in which we were being treated.  We were not working like an ordinary policeman.
	So if I would reveal such things, I would be in trouble.  They would say that it means that I am also working as a double agent for the ANC and the police.  That is the reason why I didn't tell them.

MR BOOYENS: Well perhaps I should ask you this:  did you still have, notwithstanding the fact that you were a member of Vlakplaas, did you still feel a certain loyalty to the ANC?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I am still loyal to the ANC.

MR BOOYENS: I am talking about not now.  I am talking about the eight years you were at Vlakplaas.  Were you still loyal to the ANC?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I was still loyal to the ANC because I wasn't the cause of that situation.  They forced me to  collaborate with them.

MR BOOYENS: So, in fact you were an extremely involuntary member of Vlakplaas.  Is that right?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I can say I was also working for Vlakplaas.