Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1999-05-26

UNKNOWN: Did he give evidence in court?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Why, why would he say that - oh, let me first put this question to you? Is he involved in any, was he in any way involved in the politics of the community?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: No, sir.

UNKNOWN: Why would he make a statement that three people, he saw three people fighting with one person, hitting one person? All standing up? Hitting this person until he fell down, lying on the ground then hitting him and kicking him. And then he says he saw a person which he assumed was the applicant, approaching the deceased and stabbing him with some instrument. Why would he make that statement if he had no interest whatsoever?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: That is, that is a white person. The person who was making that statement is a white person. Those were the people who were maintaining apartheid. He was in town, he's telling the truth, he was in town, but I'm surprised that after among many people who were near the Bank, he would, he would just deliberately move himself as a witness. That is to show that he was a strong supporter of the apartheid system. He was supporting the police in this regard. That is why he had to say what he said.

UNKNOWN: Are you saying that he knew that you were ANC members and that the others were members of a gang working with the police?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: It may happen that his brothers told him or informed him that we were members of the ANC.

UNKNOWN: Are you saying he did not give truthful evidence?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: He was lying in court. And even the way he was demonstrating to court I was, I was looking for a knife in my pockets was not the truth. He was lying in court. But what happened in court our legal counsel was the one who failed to cross-examine that witness. That is why our legal counsel changed his stance to be on the side of the State.

UNKNOWN: Will you page to page 81 of the bundle. There's also a statement by some Mr Timothy Brown ... (indistinct) high school student.

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: Yes, I do.

UNKNOWN: Do you know him?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: No, I don't. I don't know him.

UNKNOWN: In this statement he says that he was standing with the three, with John, Amos and Phinneas and that Baps, we assume that's you, then grabbed, there's a misspelling, probably Phinneas, and that you started to fight with fists and you fight for some time and that he then heard you say to the applicant, "take the knife out of my pocket" and that he took it. And he says in his statement that he gave it to you and that you opened the knife while holding the deceased and stabbed him. This is a bit of a different version, but the issue is he says he was also there and he also says that the fight started between yourself and the deceased. And that you were fighting for some time. Comment?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: Yes, we fought for a while. I am not a person who used to go around with a knife in my person. Those people were lying, even that person I did not see him in court. I see, I see his name for the first time here. I'm not the person who used to go around with a knife. I did not instruct anybody to put his hand inside my pocket to take out a knife. In court they were saying John Gulu gave me a knife to stab the deceased, then they come around and say I myself give, gave the knife to Gulu to stab. So there is no truth in their evidence. They are lying. There is nothing truthful in their evidence.

UNKNOWN: The deceased and his gang, were they youngsters all of them, schoolchildren?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: Yes. Yes, they were young and they were students.

UNKNOWN: Can you recall when the deceased left the ANC Youth League?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: He left ANC Youth League in June. After there was a fight between the ANC Youth League and the Eagles and after that the Eagles were forcing members of the ANC Youth League to join Eagles because the previous regime were supporting the Eagles. They used to give them, bus them to various picnic places and resorts for entertainment.

UNKNOWN: So the deceased was not a founder member of the Eagles gang?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: The deceased was recruited by a person who came from Bloemfontein, because the nest of the Eagles was in Bloemfontein and they went to Postmasburg to recruit members of the youth. But I don't know the identity of that person, he was seen by other members of the ANC.

UNKNOWN: Mr Morwaeng, the question really relates to your response when you said that the Youth League were fighting with the Eagles, with the Eagles gang. Did you say that?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: Yes, I did.

UNKNOWN: And then the Eagles gang recruited the deceased.

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: The deceased was recruited by members of the Eagles gang.

UNKNOWN: In other words, the Eagles gang already existed in Postmasburg before the deceased joined them. Is that what you are saying to us?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: Yes, it was personed before he became a member.

UNKNOWN: All right. Yes, when was the Eagles gang formed, did you say? In June, May or June. When did you say?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: Yes, after the rally which was held in Boichoko Stadium, then that is where Eagles gang was formed. That was in June.

UNKNOWN: Right. Now, do you know when the deceased joined the Eagles gang?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: I, I do not know. But what I know is that he was a member of the Eagles gang.

UNKNOWN: At the time of his death, according to your evidence.

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: He was then a member of the Stechers gang.

UNKNOWN: Yes. And do you know whether he was a member for long or for a short period?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: He became a member of that gang for a long time. Because when this was happening he is, they've already changed the name from Eagles to Stechers.

UNKNOWN: When did he become the leader of the gang?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: That is in 1990.

UNKNOWN: When in 1990?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: When he became a member of the Eagles gang.

UNKNOWN: Am I correct in understanding you that the Eagles gang did exist and they recruited him not only as a member but also as their leader?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: He was then in Std 8 at school?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mohlaba, any re-examination?

MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chairperson, and that will conclude the evidence of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Mohlaba.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, if I may be permitted, I would like to call the mother of the deceased, Mrs Annie Montso.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Can Mrs Montso come forward?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, if I may make a request? One of the longstanding family members is also present here today, if she may be asked to assist the witness while testifying. It is on request of the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, will you arrange a chair next to the witness.

ADV STEENKAMP: I think she is ready to testify, Mr Chairman.

ANNIE MONTSO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Adv Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mrs Montso, am I right in saying that you are currently 54 years old and that you are residing at No 45 New Street, Boichoko Township, Postmasburg? Is that correct?

MRS MONTSO: That's correct.

ADV STEENKAMP: The deceased in this instance, Mr Phinneas Montso, Phinneas Montso, he was your son. Am I right?

MRS MONTSO: That's correct.

ADV STEENKAMP: At the time, am I also right in saying, at the time of the incident, he was a pupil in Std 10 at the Rantantutu High School? Am I right?

MRS MONTSO: That's correct, sir.

ADV STEENKAMP: Now, I would like you to tell the Committee something about your son. As far as you know, did he belong to any organisation, I mean, or any gang, as far as you know?