Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-29

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Ja, I would say so, but it could be that Mr de Kock gave some order to somebody else at some different time, I'm not sure, I can't say.  But when I received my orders, this was roughly what I can remember.

MR MOERANE: Well, certainly the people from C1 would have received the same orders, in other words yourself and Mr Flores certainly?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR MOERANE: And you further say that bus actually went past the prearranged spot, it didn't stop where it was supposed to stop.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chair.

MR MOERANE: And Col de Kock then gave the order that the bus or the kombi should be attacked?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct, Sir.

MR MOERANE: And you all got up and ran towards the kombi.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct.

MR MOERANE: With the intention of shooting.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chair.

MR MOERANE: Is his evidence also correct, that he ran ahead of you?  In other words, he was in front.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chair.

MR MOERANE: And that he was about a metre or two from the left front door of the kombi when he started firing.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chair.

MR MOERANE: And would I be correct in saying that, as you say in your statement, that you didn't see any shooting from the kombi?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chair.

MR MOERANE: If anybody had fired from the kombi in your direction, you would have seen that?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: I think so, yes.

MR MOERANE: Yes, because you would have been the target.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And it was dark there, you would have seen the flash.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: The flash, yes.

MR MOERANE: That's right.  And you didn't see any of that?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: No, Sir.

MR MOERANE: You say, page 335
"The weapons which we used here were government weapons which were provided from Freek Pienaar's office."
Is that correct?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: And you say some uncomplimentary things about the state of that weaponry
"I can recall that the weapons were in such a bad condition that I had to oil them first before the operation."

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: You recall that?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: I received an order from Mr de Kock, because he inspected the weapons and they were not in a satisfactory condition.

MR MOERANE: Yes.  In other words, the weapons that you used on that occasion were not weapons which were issued at Vlakplaas, but they were weapons which were issued in Piet Retief?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that for the whole - to all the Vlakplaas members, they received Piet Retief weapons?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Ja, most of the people, I think so, Sir.

MR MOERANE: And would I be correct in saying that there was no proper accounting for the weapons and the ammunition, in the sense of signing for the weapons and the ammunition?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: I won't say that, I would say in the instance the weapons by number weren't booked out to each individual, but each individual received a weapon plus, I think 20 rounds of ammunition, Mr Chair.

MR MOERANE: Do you remember that?  Is it possible that you might have received more ammunition, like 50 rounds rather than 20 rounds?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: An R1 magazine takes 20 rounds of ammunition and to carry a lot of loose ammunition wouldn't be advisable because it could be lost.  And in an ambush situation I don't think we would have used much more than 20.

MR MOERANE: I seem to recall that some of the people who were there might have used more than that.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: I won't dispute that, Sir.

MR MOERANE: Would I be correct in assuming that you spent a couple of days before the second incident, at a place called Island Rock?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct, Sir.

MR MOERANE: And the purpose of that gathering has been said to be one of team-building, "spanbou".

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: What does that involved, what actually happened there?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: "Spanbou" is usually just where the guys come together and they relax.  That was the purpose of that special, that specific "spanbou".

MR MOERANE: Yes, but how did you relax, what were you doing?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: We were playing touch rugby, we were having a couple of beers, fishing, doing just what everybody wanted to do, Mr Chair.

MR MOERANE: And were the any sessions where you'd be addressed by Brig Schoon?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: No, Sir, not that I can remember of, Mr Chair.  We did mix with up casually, but not a specific time or whatever.

MR MOERANE: Was this a holiday or sorts?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: You can put it like that, Sir.

MR MOERANE: And you called team-building?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That is team-building, Mr Chair.

MR MOERANE: And this went on for four days?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chair.

MR MOERANE: Well amongst the people who attended that holiday, or were present, were people who had been involved in a shooting incident on the 8th of June.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chair.

MR MOERANE: Was that mentioned?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: I can't recall that, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: Well it must have been mentioned, Mr Vermeulen.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Mr Chair, as already said, we do work on this must-know basis and if I go on a "spanbou" I don't want to know anything about any other words, except relaxing.  So I don't interfere with anybody else's official work, Mr Chair.

MR MOERANE: No, no, I'm not suggesting that you might have been interfering, but just as part of "spanbou", one of those or two of those who had been involved telling the others that well, we are doing okay, we have actually killed four of them.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's could have happened, but it wasn't in my presence at any stage at that "spanbou", Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: In your activities as part of the C1 unit, you must have engaged in a lot of illegal activities.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: Which as we know included murder.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chair.

MR MOERANE: It included abduction of people.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: It included destruction of property, buildings and motor vehicles.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chair.

MR MOERANE: It involved covering up those activities.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chair.

MR MOERANE: By means of lies and other means.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: And the murders also involved silencing people so that they couldn't speak.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: Were you in any way congratulated for the killings of the 12th of June?  Did anyone say "Well done"?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Not that I can think of, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: You know that Mr Adriaan Vlok issued a statement after the second incident, wherein he said nine people had been killed.

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: I just heard about that statement, I didn't read it myself, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: Have you received any commendation for the work you did for Vlakplaas?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: From?

NICHOLAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: From the Commissioner of Police, and then we received various certificates, Mr Chairman.

MR MOERANE: What certificates?