Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR SEMENYA: Now I'll move from this point but are you able to indicate to me what in this paragraph could constitute dissemination of false information.

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Paragraph 12.1.1 where it says, where you use different communication instruments to create the required attitude.

MR SEMENYA: To do what?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: To create the required attitude or to change attitudes. We use the method of dissemination and through that you create the change in a group or a person's attitude.

MR SEMENYA: But to create the required attitude may be moving an article from an unlawful one to a lawful one does not necessarily mean the reverse.

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Yes in fact what we were doing is to influence people that were busy with unlawful acts that were into violence or that were into what we can say, illegal acts, to influence them to change their attitudes.

MR SEMENYA: Now I'm trying to get you to tell me were here I would read anything which is again "unlawful conduct", or were you just about lawful conduct?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: No there were unlawful...(intervention)

MR SEMENYA: So they were not done in the context of these parameters?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: You can, you see when you do Stratcom then certain illegal methods will also creep in because by spreading a rumour against a person to say disunite certain people in a group, that can never be legal or lawful.

MR SEMENYA: Yes now in the specific question put to you that Stratcom would concern itself with the dissemination of issues on the Mandela Football Club or, I don't know what was the other example called, you said that would not fall within the ambit of the objectives.  Now I'm trying to look at the objectives and to see these illegal operations in terms of which objectives does it fall, or did we have another list of objectives?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: No there's this objectives, you're talking about the definition. What are we talking about now?

MR SEMENYA: What is 12.1.1 to 12.1.3?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Ja this is the definition of Stratcom.

MR SEMENYA: Was Stratcom doing things which fell only within the definition?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Yes all the operations were approved within the definition.

MR SEMENYA: Where is this information now, I can't see it in the definition?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: In paragraph 12.1.1 where we say, "to change the attitude, values or views of individuals and/or a group of persons", to create the required attitude I can see in that.

MR SEMENYA: Are we able to get all the complete files of Stratcom?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: I believe it has been destroyed.

MR SEMENYA: When were they destroyed Sir?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: I wouldn't know, I wasn't there when it was destroyed, I had already left Stratcom.

MR SEMENYA: Did Stratcom have a, or the operation which you had, did it deal with informers?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Did we deal with informers?  Yes, yes.

MR SEMENYA: What were the informers to do?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: They were agents of influence and we had several agents, informers, friends and so forth.

MR SEMENYA: What were their functions Sir, I'm asking.

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Some of them were running fronts.

MR SEMENYA: Some of them?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Fronts, they were running fronts.

MR SEMENYA: Like?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: They were controlling fronts, they were like an organisation.

MR SEMENYA: And some of them were running publication houses, is that right?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: I'm not aware of a publication house that we ran.

MR SEMENYA: What do you mean you're not aware, was there a publication house funded out of the unit which you headed?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: I can't recall now.

MR SEMENYA: Well we know that at least my information is, one of the books published by Bridgeland in 1990 about the South African offensive with the Cubans was published by that house out of proceeds of Eschel Rhoodie ...(indistinct).

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Oh that's the old Department of Information.  We had nothing to do with that.

MR SEMENYA: You didn't have anything to do with that?

DR BORAINE: Are you going to be much longer Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: (Speaker's microphone is not on)

DR BORAINE: Thank you.

MR SEMENYA: Just two aspects Chairperson.
 I have a newspaper here but I'm advised that the TRC has a list of friendly journalists that you had.  Are we able to access this list of friendly journalists and people to...(intervention)

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Mr Chairman I will like to object if I can.  We came to an agreement with the TRC, the Investigators that that list will not leave the offices.

DR BORAINE: And perhaps I could say yes that was the nature of the agreement, and I could say that the people sitting up on this panel from this side of the Investigation Unit to Mrs Madikizela Mandela have not got that list.  It is within the hands of only certain people within the Truth Commission.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson my difficulty is the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and we are told that things are going to be transparent and open.  There is a list of issues which related relative to my client for which we must prepare defence.  I don't know what would be compromised in the objects of the Commission if that list is made available.

DR BORAINE: Mr Semenya I take your point entirely.  I'd be grateful if we could have time in order to discuss this and to hear full argument on this but I promise you an opportunity will be given to do exactly that.  It may help you to know that I haven't seen the list either nor has the Chairperson, so I'm caught slightly off guard, we'd like to consult to come back to that.

MR SEMENYA: I have no further questions.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  Are there any questions. Yes Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: I believe that I'll be asking the wrong person but I'll ask the questions none the less.  Do you know anything about Mr Richardson, my client?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: No only what I read in the newspaper but I don't know him personally and I wasn't involved with the investigation whatsoever.

MR RICHARD: Well the next question is, who would be the appropriate person to ask questions about his involvement if any involvement?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: I would say the intelligence section of the South African Police service from the Security Branch.  I would say the people from Soweto, the intelligence section of Soweto.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson, I think I've gone as far as I can with this witness, thank you.

DR BORAINE: Anyone else?  ...(indistinct)  Panel, no alright, alright. Yasmin Sooka.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr McPherson I just want to clarify besides journalists, you also had sources and informers.  Was any member of the Mandela Football Club one such source?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: I would say that under no circumstances, well I can't say under no circumstances but to recruit somebody from the Football Club for Stratcom operations. I can't see it falling within the ambit and objectives of Stratcom.

YASMINE SOOKA: So am I to understand that the passing of information to journalists who would perpetuate a particular view point, was considered to be part of your mandate?

JOHN LOUIS MCPHERSON: Yes I had an operation that was registered and approved just around the media, just around the journalists, that's the media people.

YASMINE SOOKA: And in terms of that you are quite certain that the explanation you've made in terms of Mr Fred Bridgeland, I'm not clear about it because from your evidence it's clear that you passed on information to him, is that correct?