Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

ISGAK HARDIEN: It was a friend of mine's.

MS COLERIDGE: And then what did you do?

ISGAK HARDIEN: We around the place.

MS COLERIDGE: How long did you drive around the place for?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot say exactly if it was five or 10 minutes, I cannot say.

MS COLERIDGE: And can you explain to us which part around the Early Learning Centre did you drive around?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr van Zyl them did not know the area or the place, I drove round the front, right round, because you can circle the whole building and then we went to go and stand at the back of the building.

MS COLERIDGE: Did you circle the whole building?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: So you could see the back and the front.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, the back and front, correct.

MS COLERIDGE: And when you stopped the car, could you see the parking lot or could you see the front of the building?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Where the cars were parking.

MS COLERIDGE: And then, what were your instructions, what did Mr van Zyl tell you to do then?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I had to go and see if all the people were out, but while we were sitting there people came out, but I went out to go and make sure.

MS COLERIDGE: And then what happened?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I once again went without Van Zyl and I went to go and ensure that all the people were out.

MS COLERIDGE: And did you report back to Mr van Zyl.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MR LAX: Sorry, did you go right into the building?  Did you just stand near the entrance, what happened?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I stood at the door.  You can see if you stand at the door.

MR LAX: And did you look into the hall, did you look in the rest of the building, where did you look?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I did not look around in the building, because I spoke to Mr Williams there.

MR LAX: What did you ask him?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I told him: "Just make sure that everybody's out because I planted a bomb here."

MR LAX: You told him that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I told him that, my exact words.

CHAIRPERSON: We have a Mr Williams here ...(intervention)

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Peter Williams.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

MS COLERIDGE: And after checking the building you reported this back to Mr van Zyl, is that right?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MS COLERIDGE: So did you get into the car again or what happened, can you explain that to us?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I climbed back into the car, yes.

MS COLERIDGE: Where was the car parked?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Behind.

MS COLERIDGE: Was that where you could see the parking lot?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MS COLERIDGE: Could you tell us about how many metres away from the Early Learning Centre were you parked?  30 metres, 40 metres?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you estimate the distance in this court?

ISGAK HARDIEN: It wasn't far.  As you enter, on the corner of the road, the road runs in a circle, the Committee has been there, so the Committee will understand if I say from the corner to the building.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you at the inspection in loco when we went there, Mr Hardien?  Were you with us when we went there?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I went by myself.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I'm talking when we went as the Committee.  Were you there when we were there?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I stood at my flat and I saw all of you there.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay.  But I'm sure I know the corner that you're speaking about, you've got that sort of circle, the road that goes in a circle and it's just - it's not far from the entrance to where the car park is.

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: It's approximately - we did take a measurement and it was pointed out to us.  I've forgotten the exact measurements, but it's about 30 metres or so.

MS COLERIDGE: And then Mr Hardien, you got back into the car with Mr Slang van Zyl, is that right?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: And what did you do then, did you drive around the block, what did you do?

ISGAK HARDIEN: We sat and waited until all the cars were gone.

MS COLERIDGE: And then?

ISGAK HARDIEN: For me it was hundred percent certain that everyone had left, because there were no more cars.

MS COLERIDGE: From where you were could you see that there were no more cars in the parking lot?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct, because I knew the place like the back of my hand.

MS COLERIDGE: And then, who pressed the - what happened thereafter?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Then Mr van Zyl - you'll understand if I say a calculator, because to me it looked like a calculator, Mr Botha pressed it and I took them to the airport.

MR LAX: Sorry.  Did he press it while you were at the back of the hall?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I was with him in the car.

MR LAX: Yes, but was the car at the back of the hall still, where you'd been observing from?

ISGAK HARDIEN: It was at the back, we were parked at the back where I said we were standing.

MR LAX: You were parked.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any problem with the calculator?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall if there was a problem.

MR LAX: So Van Zyl gave the calculator to Botha, who pressed it, is that right?  As far as you can remember.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: And then you heard the bomb, is that right?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MS COLERIDGE: What did you do after the bomb exploded?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I took Mr van Zyl and them to the airport.

MS COLERIDGE: And did you go back to the Athlone Early Learning Centre after the incident?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MS COLERIDGE: Now we know that you received money for this operation, can you tell the Committee how much you received for your involvement?

ISGAK HARDIEN: R18 000.

MS COLERIDGE: Was that the only amount you received?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MS COLERIDGE: Why I'm asking you this is because you - first tell me, when did you receive the R18 000, was it before the incident or after the incident?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Afterwards.

MS COLERIDGE: And how long after the incident?

ISGAK HARDIEN: If I recall correctly it was two weeks.

CHAIRPERSON: That amount of R18 000, Mr Hardien, was it a previously agreed amount, or when you got it was it a surprise to you, the amount?  Were you expecting R18 000 at the time that you performed as you did with regard to the bomb?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Nothing was discussed regarding money before the time.

MR LAX: Were you expecting to be paid?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MR LAX: Did you actually count the money?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Not at that same time.

MR LAX: But at any time did you sit down and count it and make sure it was exactly R18 000?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MS COLERIDGE: And after the Athlone Early Learning Centre, did you have contact with Mr Slang van Zyl again thereafter?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Not that I can recall.

MS COLERIDGE: Was that the last time that you had dealings with Mr Slang van Zyl?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MS COLERIDGE: You also spoke about a place ... arson committed in homes, can you recall that incident where UDF members were using a certain printing place to get their pamphlets and materials and so forth?  Do you remember ever talking about that or being involved in arson there?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall.

MS COLERIDGE: Now you said - are you sure Mr Hardien, that you went to South West Africa only once?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Correct.

MS COLERIDGE: Mr van Zyl stated that he sent to South West Africa and that your contact person was Mr Burger in South West Africa and he was going to give you instructions there as to what to do, did you ever meet Mr Burger in South West Africa?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I don't know Mr Burger.  I cannot recall.

MS COLERIDGE: Because in your statement to the TRC Investigative Unit, I know you said that you lied there, you didn't tell the truth, that when you went to South West Africa there were people like Mr Burger there and then this Greek man, Kouvaris, can you remember anything like that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall anything.

MS COLERIDGE: And then just in relation to Peaches, did Peaches ever go to South West Africa?