Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-27

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, I'll have to take instructions as far as that is concerned and I may also just at this stage indicate, with respect Mr Chairman, that in terms of Section 153 or the Criminal Procedure Act, when there is a trial taking place behind closed doors and a name is disclosed to members of the court and people represented various parties in that court, that member of the court cannot disclose that to anyone else.  That could be an order of the court and if that person is still an informer, Mr Chairman, it makes it even more complicated.  But at this stage my submission is that that person's life might be at stake.  Even if the people represented by Mr Moerane have no intention of doing anything to that particular person, there may be people close to them who have bad blood as far as that is concerned.  There is always that risk.  It's only a risk that's required, Mr Chairman, not a reality, just a probability.  Thank you, Mr Chairman. But I'll take instructions with regard to that particular person's whereabouts and whether that person is still an informer, if I'm given that opportunity, for a brief adjournment I'll request the Committee, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll have a short adjournment.  We'd just like to discuss the matter amongst ourselves as well.  Thank you.  Just take a short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: (s.u.o.)

MS LOCKHAT: (cont)

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, the applicant has given me the name of the particular source.  It's on this document written in my hand which I am prepared to give to the Committee, I will give to the Committee.  I will however respectfully submit Mr Chairman that as far as that particular source is concerned, that source ought to be informed as to the intentions of the Committee to reveal its name, so that the source can at least secure legal representation and come and argue as to whether her or his name should be revealed to the Committee, but as far as full disclosure is concerned, the applicant is making full disclosure, the name is available and I'm going to give it to the Committee, but that I would respectfully submit that the Committee will have to make that decision as to whether this name should be revealed or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: ...(microphone not on) regarded as an implicated person maybe and for that reason the secretary should also be present and then at least with legal representation, first of all whether the name should be revealed, secondly as to whether that person will be regarded as an implicated person.  The applicant I represent, Mr Pienaar, is not aware of the whereabouts of the particular source.  He is no longer a member of the South African police force, he's been out of the force for quite a few years and my other submissions still stand.  As it pleases.  Mr Chairman, must I hand this up to the Committee?

CHAIRPERSON: No, I don't think at this stage.  Do you wish to say anything Mr Moerane, or not?

MR MOERANE: Nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we are still discussing the matter and I must say one of the points that did come to mind was exactly the point raised by yourself that there should be some sort of notification, legal representation on the part of the person concerned and I think at this stage, if we could then just stand this aspect over for later and we would as a panel still like to discuss it and we'll make some sort of finding, perhaps tomorrow or something like that, but if we could then just continue with the hearing until then.  But we take the point made by Mr Prinsloo.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Lockhat.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, do you have any re-examination?

MR PRINSLOO: No re-examination thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Gcabashe, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, thank you Chair.  Mr Pienaar, I may have lost this somewhere in your evidence.  The first incident occurred on the 8th of June.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: How long before that did you receive your information about the infiltration generally?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Mr Theron called me on the 8th while I was busy with a Circuit Court at Bethal and I went to Piet Retief where I received the information.

ADV GCABASHE: You were told on the 8th about the infiltration?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct as far as I can recall, Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: No other information prior to the 8th about this group that were going to be infiltrating over a period?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: There was information from sources of a possible-large scale infiltration from Swaziland because there was a pile up of MK members there but the dates were not known at that stage, not at all.

ADV GCABASHE: So you received this information, what, on the morning of the 8th?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I cannot recall what time it was Chairperson.  I came from Bethal and I don't remember what time it was.

ADV GCABASHE: I am just trying to understand the day because the shooting occurred roughly around 21h10 according to one of the documents we have here, yes?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That's correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Now I understand how things unfolded that day because you received the information on that day, you contact Mr de Kock on that day, you talk to Mr Deetlefs on that day, you start making arrangements about a motor vehicle to be brought to you, the Corolla, which was not your Corolla, it belonged to a different division.  Just take me through that in terms of the time scale.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That's correct, Chairperson.  The Toyota, if I could just mention here, was the detective branch at Piet Retief, they were in the same building where the Security Branch was, so it was not a matter of a long time to arrange that and after I arrived at Piet Retief and I made myself known with the information, I contacted Col de Kock and he came to Piet Retief.  I contacted Col Deetlefs, he could not come and Col de Kock and I made arrangements.

ADV GCABASHE: May I stop you there?  At what time did you phone Mr de Kock?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I'm not certain of the time, Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: But he was in Pretoria at Vlakplaas at the time?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: So another three-hour drive across to Piet Retief?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That's correct yes.

ADV GCABASHE: And you discussed the matter, then he called on the rest of the troops to come up as well.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, there were members with Col de Kock who came down to Piet Retief with him.

ADV GCABASHE: Okay, so when he arrived he came with the unit that was used that evening.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, that's correct.

ADV GCABASHE: You got the information from Theron, Mr Theron.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That's correct.

ADV GCABASHE: But you spoke to the source as well.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That's correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And this would have been that morning, on the morning of the incident.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That was the 8th yes, Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Did you discuss with Mr Theron and your source, the possibility of weapons being carried by these people and what was the information you were given, as you were having this initial discussion?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: It would be trained MK members, armed, which would come into the RSA, that she had to arrange transport from the RSA side for them.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, that's another important point I was going to ask you about.  Her task from the ANC had been to arrange this transport, you took over that function.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Did she indicate to you when she had been given this task?