Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

UNKNOWN: Your statement reads that,
"Mr daughter told Kathleen Sachwell that she overheard Winnie saying that Stompie was dead."
Somebody, I mean, they overheard.  I suppose you put it down (...indistinct) our investigation.  Again, it is more or less the same, we want to know what is the hearsay and what is the truth about this matter?

MS FALATI: That is why I (...indistinct) in that (...indistinct) she told Kathleen Sachwell.  (...Indistinct) that the lawyers were representing us.  (...Indistinct) told the lawyers were representing us.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Okay, on page ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: How many more have you got?

UNKNOWN: Well, it is really, really important otherwise, (...indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: No, no I am not disputing the importance, I am saying how many more have you got?

UNKNOWN: One, two, three, four.

CHAIRPERSON: I think maybe we can have (...indistinct) let us discuss those (...indistinct) it is one (...indistinct).  I think, I mean, that may be better, because (...indistinct) over what, I mean, of (...indistinct).

UNKNOWN: But, Chairperson, I thought for the sake of the record, it is important for us to get from her what is the truth and what she says I heard people say that.  Otherwise, our record ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, if (...indistinct) I have heard then it means I have heard.  What, do you have another?  I will give you one more.

UNKNOWN: The other one has been canvassed, but, again, I  thought it is important to know, it seems that (...indistinct) where she says (...indistinct) I was told by him (...indistinct) died because he took information.  I suppose that one is, again, it is an allegation about a killing (...indistinct).  Again, she says I was told.  So, I wanted to check where she is today.

MS FALATI: (...Indistinct).

UNKNOWN: The last one,
"I was told that after Dr Asvat saw (...indistinct) Stompie there was a big fight."
I mean, again, I just thought for us it is important to  know, really, how much does she know about this or is she put it down because she was told.

CHAIRPERSON: (...Indistinct), I mean, it has already been covered by the lawyer representing the Asvat family, because he wanted to know that.  If you want to have a second go (...indistinct).  (...Indistinct) have gone up (...indistinct).  I do not know what to say, I mean, I think you (...indistinct) the first time (...indistinct) being in the witness stand for a little while.  Thank you very much for, I mean, I did not want to have scolded you, I will not scold you now, I (...indistinct) thank you for your efforts of helping us to arrive at the truth.  I am sure one is aware that you are carrying a heavy burden, that there is a great deal of emotion that you have, you have (...indistinct) like a (...indistinct) champagne bottle that has been corked up and when you open it, it overflows, but thank you very much.
 We hope that the work that we will do you, again, will (...indistinct) your helping to alleviate or the (...indistinct) pain that we and many others feel.  The work of this Committee (...indistinct) a major contribution to the process of healing.  We are all wounded, we are all traumatised in all sorts of different ways. So, thank you very much.

MS FALATI: Thank you Bishop, but I would like to ask one question from you, to you. Can I ask that question?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS FALATI: Are you going to go into the mine-shaft, because I am positive there are bodies there.  I do not want to (...indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will take ... (intervention).

MS FALATI: I can take you, even now, there.  Can you go, can you go?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS FALATI: (...Indistinct) the bodies so that they can be buried in a decent way and (...indistinct).  Can we go there?  Are you going to go there?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please.

MS FALATI: I can take you there even.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  After the Investigations Unit has done (...indistinct).

MS FALATI: (...Indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.

MR MULLER: Chairperson, can I, (...indistinct) Muller, I represent Jabu Sithole, who, you will recall, was called earlier this morning and who you allowed to stand down in order to (...indistinct) legal (...indistinct) ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: (...Indistinct) we will not call him anymore.

MR MULLER: Chairperson, I just wanted to place on record that, (...indistinct), firstly, that it is very difficult for him to do that at the (...indistinct), because he has other commitments.  Secondly, that I have taken a statement from him and I do not believe that his
evidence will take longer than five to ten minutes, because he is not going to say anything of any critical importance.  I leave it in your hands, Chairperson, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MULLER: ... to decide.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.  I (...indistinct) told that (...indistinct) account (...indistinct) thank you very much for the (...indistinct).  We will try and take him at the very (...indistinct) possible, some time today.

MR MULLER: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MULLER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I now call Mr Cebekhulu.  (...Indistinct).  Order please.  You are free to (...indistinct) those at the back (...indistinct).  Order.  Please settle now.  Thank you very much.  You will see yourselves on television, sit down.  We are taking, order, order please, we are taking Mr Cebekhulu and now, because Mr Nicholson has a (...indistinct) that we must (...indistinct) last night and (...indistinct) as soon as possible.  Order, order.  We have authority from (...indistinct) the (...indistinct) National Commissioner of Police and the Attorney-General of the (...indistinct) that Katiza Cebekhulu will not be arrested or prevented from leaving the country on the grounds of (...indistinct) laid down (...indistinct) Mrs Madikizela-Mandela last night.
 They, further, want to do nothing (...indistinct) to hinder the Commission's work.  However, we are willing to accommodate the request on (...indistinct) now.  You are welcome (...indistinct) and you are (...indistinct).  You are (...indistinct) to speak (...indistinct).  Are you comfortable?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: (...Indistinct).  I will speak English.

MR JOSEPH: My surname is Joseph, my initials are S L, I represent both Katiza Cebekhulu and Mrs Emma Nicholson.  Mr Cebekhulu indicated to me that he would prefer to speak in the English language.  Would you swear the witness in.

CHAIRPERSON: (...Indistinct).

YASMINE SOOKA: Will you state your full names for the record?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: My full names are Katiza Cebekhulu.

YASMINE SOOKA: (...Indistinct)

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: (Duly sworn in, states).

EMMA NICHOLSON: My name is (...indistinct) I (...indistinct).

YASMINE SOOKA: Are you going to take the oath or the affirmation?

EMMA NICHOLSON: I (...indistinct).

EMMA NICHOLSON: (Duly sworn in, states).

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.