Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-04-12

MR MVELASE: The difference would have been that - you see, the money I obtained from such part time jobs wasn't that much, it only provided a plate or a meal for that particular day but did not stretch beyond that and to buy clothes for myself.

ADV SIGODI: Did you expect to be paid for this job that you did or this robbery that you committed for the IFP, or to be remunerated?  Did you expect any form of remuneration?

MR MVELASE: What I expected was to do this to strengthen the organisation and to further its mission.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you finished with your questioning, Mr Claassen?

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair, I have.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any more questions, I don't know if there's any left?

MS THABETE: I have a few Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Mvelase, a few questions.  On page 7 of the bundle 10(a) of your application, you say that:
"Although the murder wasn't right, the intention was not to kill."
Is that correct?

MR MVELASE: That is correct.

MS THABETE: Exactly what was the intention?

MR MVELASE: The intention was to try and rob so that we can meet the needs of the IFP.

MS THABETE: My next question following to that, why then didn't you act according to your intentions?

MR MVELASE: It is for that reason that I am saying that it was a mistake on the part of Sampson Manqele when he did something to which we had not agreed or planned.

MS THABETE: Did you discuss the incident thereafter as a group that had planned the robbery?

MR MVELASE: I asked him, that was when we were now in prison, and I wanted to know from him why he did that and he said it was a mistake.  He could not answer as to how it happened.

MS THABETE: When you were discussing this did he tell you why he shot Miss Govender when you had agreed that you should just rob her?

MR MVELASE: He said it was a very, very big mistake on his part, which mistake he too could not explain.

CHAIRPERSON: I must be quite honest here, I find something very strange.  You people don't have any intention of killing anybody but yet you arm yourselves going on this robbery, what were you going to do with the arms?

MR MVELASE: The firearms were to be used to scare off or frighten the targets, to scare them off so that they could give us the money that we wanted.  It was not our intention to kill any one of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was there ammunition in it, and why was there more than one gun?

MR MVELASE: I would say that we did not concern ourselves with having to use firearms that did not have ammunition, but basically our intention was not to go there to kill.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your answer?  What did you think was going to happen?  What would have happened if this lady resisted?

MR MVELASE: I think that because there were many of us, there were four of us, there was no need really to kill her.  Yes, this happened as an error because she too was not armed.  I did not see any arm in her possession.  Really it was not our intention to kill her, it just happened, it was a mistake.  Those were not our intentions.  That is why I am saying it was a very big mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mvelase, you are not answering my question.  What did you think was going to happen to this woman if she resisted the robbery?

MR MVELASE: Because we were many, there were four of us, I don't think that she could have resisted or refused to give us the money because we had firearms pointed at her.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not asking what you think, I am asking what would have happened to her had she said "no you can't have the money" and resisted, or produced a firearm herself?  What would have happened to her?

MR MVELASE: Yes, that was possible but I don't think that she could have resisted after having firearms pointed at her.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your answer to my question?  Would you like me to repeat the question one more time?

MR MVELASE: Yes, I think the answer suffices.

MS THABETE: On page 8 of the bundle number 11(a) of your application, there is a question which asks who gave the order and in your application you said
"Not applicable"
Can you explain why you did not write Wiseman's name and can you also explain why you never mentioned Wiseman in your application.

MR MVELASE: I think that had questions pertaining to Wiseman been raised, I would have answered them.

MS THABETE: Sorry, I don't understand that answer, can you repeat it please?

MR MVELASE: I am saying had they asked me questions about Wiseman maybe I could have included his name.

MS THABETE: But, Mr Mvelase, the question asks you who gave you an order.  You were asked the same question today and you said Wiseman Kanyele.  My question to you is why didn't you answer like that before in your application, why are you only saying that today, now?  That's my question.

MR MVELASE: I would like to know as to which statement you are referring to and who took it from me and when?

MS THABETE: It's on the application, Mr Mvelase, which you have signed at the end, page 8 of the bundle.

MR MVELASE: ...(no English interpretation)

MS THABETE: Why not?

MR MVELASE: I don't think I would have failed to answer such an important question.

MS THABETE: Because it asks you who gave the order and then at number (b) it asks you the name of the person who gave you an order, why couldn't you give the name of Wiseman?

MR MVELASE: It is for that reason that I am saying that I don't think that I could have failed to answer such an important question.

MS THABETE: I won't follow this question anymore.  My next question to you is, exactly what was your role during the whole robbery incident?

MR MVELASE: My role was to point the firearm at these two people and rob them.

MS THABETE: What did you do during the robbery incident?

MR MVELASE: I pointed a firearm at this white male and Manqele had his firearm pointed to the female, and this female, if I still remember very well, had I think about two bags in her possession.  Yes, there were two bags of money.

MS THABETE: So what are you applying for amnesty for?

MR MVELASE: I am seeking amnesty for taking part in this robbery, attempted robbery and the death of the deceased and I am seeking amnesty from the IFP as a whole for violating their policies and I am asking for forgiveness from the entire South African population.

MS THABETE: Are you aware that you were charged with attempted murder of Mr Rupert Colleen and you were actually convicted for it?

MR MVELASE: Yes.

MS THABETE: Would you say this was part of the plan?  How would you justify this politically?

MR MVELASE: ...(no English interpretation)

MS THABETE: No, attempted murder of Mr Rupert Colleen.

MR MVELASE: It was within our plans because I was to point this firearm at this person.  He could not have easily given the money to us, I was to point the firearm at him.

MS THABETE: Mr Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen have you got any questions?

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, no questions from my side Mr Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CLAASSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED