Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-24

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I ask, I don't see that there should but could there be any objection to my attorney talking to him so that we can find out exactly what he's got and when it can be brought to you because Mr Chairman, we can't just keep on postponing the completion ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I want our investigator to take over now through our Leader of Evidence and we will be responsible for such evidence then being made available.

MR VISSER: I suggest that my learned friend completes the cross-examination of this witness, pending on whatever may come out from Mr Holmes.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I've just got one issue that I want to raise which is related, that is, in your experience as a Security Policeman, surely, or isn't it common practice that when you have an informer who supplies you with information about persons who may at a later stage be arrested, that it would be a common practice to keep that informer in order to communicate with that informer to corroborate information that is gleaned from the persons who are arrested or detained by some other means?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That would be a usual practice, yes Sir.

MR WILLS: Yes, so it would be quite an unusual thing to have killed this informer at this stage?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is correct, Sir.

MR WILLS: Do you know why?  Are you able to advance any reason to the Committee why this unusual step was taken?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, personally I am unable to really know why this step was taken.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Mr Wills, can I just clarify something?  The two issues that arose from your discussion with Mr Holmes were that they weren't killed at the same time and which of them was allegedly blown up at sea?

CHAIRPERSON: Ndaba.

MR WILLS: Yes, Ndaba.

MR LAX: I just wanted to be clear, so my note is correct, thank you.

MR WILLS: That completes my cross-examination, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chair.

UNKNOWN: Mr Wasserman, you state in paragraph 4 that you were surprised by the news of Mr Ndaba's arrest in view of the high profile.  Can you explain what you mean by this?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, not the arrest.

MR LAX: He was surprised that he was his informant, not by the arrest.  Sorry, just to get the question right.

UNKNOWN: What do you mean by high profile?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Well Mr Ndaba was a high profile, according to my knowledge, he was a high profile MK Commander from MHQ.

CHAIRPERSON: He was Commander of the operations in Natal, wasn't he?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: He was at one stage, then he retreated.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you also know that Mr Shabalala was high profile, similar high profile?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, I was unaware of his status, Sir.

UNKNOWN: When did you come into contact with the name Ndaba?  When did you first come into contact with his name?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I can hazard a guess.  It would have been in my Swaziland Operations, probably 84/85, at a guess.

UNKNOWN: Oh you were in Swaziland 84/85?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No I operated in Swaziland, but I was in Durban basically.

UNKNOWN: Okay.  Now you say that, to your knowledge, no assault took place at C R Swart?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Not in my presence.

UNKNOWN: Not in your presence?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No.

MR LAX: Sorry your mike please.

UNKNOWN: Sorry, and you were in the presence of these two all the time that they were there?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, I was not in their presence all the time.

UNKNOWN: You were not?  Okay.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chair.

UNKNOWN: Now you say when you proceeded with the arrest of Shabalala at the meeting-place by Greyville Racecourse, you explained how the whole operation occurred, but I'd just like to highlight the fact that Mr Botha in his evidence, said that what he had, what your objective had been at that stage once Ndaba gave the signal, it was to protect Ndaba, would you agree with that?  Your objective, your common objective, once the signal had been given by Ndaba that he was in danger?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, any action taken by us was to protect Ndaba.

UNKNOWN: Your objective of the whole action?  But your account here has just been that your, the object of your, of the whole operation was to arrest both of them?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, that's the wrong impression, I hope that's not the impression ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I gathered from the evidence, that he said the intention was to create the impression that they had arrested both of them after it had gone wrong.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is correct, yes, that's the impression Sir.

UNKNOWN: Okay, so you wouldn't agree with Botha's assertion that in fact Ndaba could have gleaned, Shabalala could have gleaned from that whole operation of arrest, that Ndaba was not being arrested?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, it is possible that he did glean that, that we were attempting to stage a charade that he would not glean that.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  We have evidence from Mr Botha yet again that Shabalala refused to be recruited, what do you say to that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's very possible and I was not present when Botha even tried once to recruit him.

UNKNOWN: I don't think I got the reason precisely why you were told not to try to recruit him.  Why was that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That reason was never given to me.

UNKNOWN: In the usual course of your business of arrests you would have tried to turn a person over, would you not?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman we would have engaged in a questioning session should the reaction of that person be as such, then one might have tried a recruiting job on that personality.

UNKNOWN: Had you previously been told not to try and recruit an arrested person?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Many times.

UNKNOWN: You have been.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And you never questioned it?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, not at all.

UNKNOWN: Okay.  On paragraph 12 you say that Shabalala was robust and aggressive throughout, can you just expand on that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Well, Mr Chairman, if I attempted to have anything to say to Mr Ndaba, correction, to Mr Shabalala, he would have absolutely nothing to say to me.

UNKNOWN: Is that aggression?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Well, perhaps not in the strict sense of the word, however he would have nothing at all to do with me.

UNKNOWN: Is that what you mean by robust and aggressive?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Perhaps abrasive is another word, but it was definite from his reaction that there would be no dealings between the two of us.

UNKNOWN: This just doesn't add up.  You were told not to have anything to do with Mr Shabalala but you are able here to assert that he was robust and aggressive.  The two just don't tie up.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Well, Mr chairman, I would have had to go and see that he was okay in the room, that perhaps he needed to relieve himself, we had to take him food, we had to take water, so those were the dealings that I routinely would have had with him, but I never had discussions over activities and actions that he might be doing.

UNKNOWN: So, in hiss aggression what did he do, did
he refuse when you said you may go and relieve yourself?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have to be present when he had to relieve himself?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, there was no toilet facilities right in that room, so he would have had to be taken to do his ablutions and we took them.

CHAIRPERSON: And have his handcuffs taken off?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: It must have been most humiliating.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I think so, Sir.