Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: I think that you are right. I think if one looks back at one's career, I honestly have to say I have good memories of the time in Soweto. You know Madam Chairman, there was no reference to specific cases, that's what I say and I'm not reproaching anybody, I'm just saying that it was vague, the handling of informers or sources associated with Mrs Mandela and the football club.
 I don't want to argue with anything but I'm saying that the questions weren't pertinent in the subpoena. I want to say that if this had been the case in a criminal case, then we would not have answered if we hadn't asked for first details first. We were in an uncomfortable position and I know that you are also in a dilemma. We spoke to you and I think we met each other half way and we couldn't act in any other way. There's no specific other reason.

YASMINE SOOKA: Could I just ask you about two points which have been raised. The one is when I think a question was put to you by Mr Pigou about your being able to access the Mandela Football Club. I think you said every time you began to make some kind of headway there was interference by the AG or directly by your head office in Pretoria. Is that not what you said?

MR NIENABER: No, no, no. My testimony in that case was that we regularly tried our men in the field - saw that as a target field but when they got there, then on the same day or the next day we would get a letter or a phone call, phone enquiry from the lawyer - I can't give names.
 For instance, a simple example. One day it was quite uncomfortable it was difficult to explain that it hadn't been us. The municipality had something to do with the electricity at the house which had been cut off or something and the next moment the telephones were ringing off the hook saying, asking what the police had to do with it. I don't have to elaborate any further. The police got the blame for absolutely everything.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you, just one more questions. You know, one of the things which is very peculiar about the investigation relating to Themba Mabotha, is that this man was arrested on the 21st of February I think and the 22nd he's fetched at Marble Hall where on the evidence of some people he was badly assaulted, he's brought back to the Soweto branch were a statement is taken by I think Mr du Toit, who alleges that he knows of no assault and that Mr Mabotha was in a wonderful condition.
 Yet on the 24th of February Ms Nkadimeng an associate of Mr Mabotha, sees him at the Soweto branch and finds his mouth so badly damaged that the blood is still stuck on his mouth. But the further peculiarity is that on the - this man is not booked in on your register until the 4th of April. 
  Now you've testified about Mr Potgieter's character and I just found this whole affair so strange. Surely it is highly irregular to have no record for a man since the date of his arrest to the date that is actually reflected as having been entered on your register. What do you have to say about that?

MR NIENABER: The only thing I can say is it's also strange to me. I don't know, there is something wrong there, that should be investigated, I think that should be investigated.

YASMINE SOOKA: One last question. It seems to be a common perception that Vlakplaas was really a clean up unit and this is not just evidence that has come from Mr de Kock today before the Commission, but certainly evidence that has come forward in other amnesty applications.
 Now if you were told that Mr Potgieter handled Mr Mabotha over to Mr Eugene de Kock, would it be fair to say that you would assume that that would be for elimination purposes?

MR NIENABER: No, I wouldn't have because you know, there were regularly people who were arrested who were not charged and who were channelled to Vlakplaas where they were rehabilitated and worked. So it would not have been strange to me, it is not strange to me if Mr Mabotha who was also a trained person had gone to Vlakplaas as well.

YASMINE SOOKA: So what one of Vlakplaas's functions was rehabilitation?

MR NIENABER: Sort of what we call rehabilitation, in other words we used them again as ...[intervention]

YASMINE SOOKA: Askaris?

MR NIENABER: Against their own people as askaris, turning them into askari and that's what we called rehabilitation.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you Mr Nienaber.
 Mr Coetzee do you have any explanation to offer?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Nee ek het nie.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you. Reverend?
REV?: Just a very short question. I'm asking this question because it seems there's no common ethic in terms of pragmatics as far as this police force is concerned from a person who is like myself, who is used in certain structures where there must be a common ethic of functioning.
 Now the question I want to ask you, it has been asked with some of the people who have gone before us. Did you gentlemen know anything about the assaults by the police during your own career?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Yes and no. But then I want to motivate. I have also been accused in the past and fortunately a case was never made against me but I was accused nevertheless. I know I was the person on a number of interdicts who handled the advocates from the side of the police.
 Also in Durban - I suppose you're aware of my history, I have been in Durban for a long time. Even there we had unfortunately lost somebody in detention during interrogation. So yes, Chairman, I know that people were accused and it is never to be denied, changed rather. But at the same time I want to say that, that is not a generalisation. 
 And what is actually nice is that the policemen are actually charging their colleagues.  That is another positive thing, that it is not allowed.

MR NIENABER: Do you want me to respond?  With regard to Soweto, in speaking of Soweto, I was fortunate to have never been charged for assault or there was never any charges against me in any way, but be that as it may.  During detentions in Soweto which was known that people did complain that they were assaulted, cases were opened and it was investigated by an independent unit who was not part of the Security Branch. However, not as far as I know while we were in Soweto anybody was charged.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you, thank you for giving evidence today. We appreciate your co-operation in this matter. We'd like to thank the translators and interpreters as well. I know that this is a violation in itself keeping them here so late.
 I'd also like to thank the families of the victims and to apologise for the fact that this hearing has gone on so late tonight. And to the lawyers who've remained in attendance, I'm sure you're happy to know that we're at the end of this day's proceedings. You may stand down. Thank you. This hearing is now closed.
WITNESSES EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS