Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-24

UNKNOWN: No, we did not.  The policemen came to my rescue.   I could not see properly because we moved the whole night and I had suffered, I was tired.  We moved the whole night until seven, until the policemen came.
 I kept on falling and hitting against trees, because I could not see properly and it was dark.  Police came to my rescue and I was free and I felt it was just too much.
 I then went away to stay in another place, running away from home in fear that they would again come.  I could see they now wanted to burn me because there was this boy from the Mtshiselwa family.

REV XUNDU: Where was your family at the time?  Your wife especially?

UNKNOWN: She was there at Tsitsikama.

REV XUNDU: So you went back to Tsitsikama ultimately?

UNKNOWN: Yes, after a few days I went back to Tsitsikama.

REV XUNDU: Did you lay any charges against this people?

UNKNOWN: No, not these because that was the time Tsebe's Government collapsed.   Even the busses, they had come in, I don't know where they had got it from.

REV XUNDU: So you decided not to take any steps because
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there was no direction?

UNKNOWN: Yes, even the policemen at that time did not know what was happening because the Government had collapsed.

REV XUNDU: Let us now conclude by asking you what would you like this Commission to do for you?

UNKNOWN: I want this people to give a full explanation as to why they killed my child and leave me in stead, because I was the person who was a councillor.
 In fact no one had said that councillors were not accepted and as soon as I could see that there was a conflict, I decided to resign voluntarily.
 We were not actually representing ourselves as councillors.

REV XUNDU: What is your other request besides this one?

UNKNOWN: Sir, my wife was very hurt such that she doesn't live there, she lives in Dongwe because she wants to be nearer the Doctors.
 And she has left me there and I don't see properly.

REV XUNDU: What is wrong with your wife?

UNKNOWN: My wife is suffering from arthritis, but she doesn't live with me.

REV XUNDU: Any other request?

UNKNOWN: So this has affected our family live because we live separately, even what I own is being stolen by people.

REV XUNDU: Now, have you ever had any attention on your eye?

UNKNOWN: I did go to Maciwana Hospital and they say my eye is damaged.

REV XUNDU: Is there any other thing, any other request
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you perhaps have?

UNKNOWN: Our request as a family is that the Commission should meet us half way and bring them closer to us because my mother is an urban person, she is not used to living in the rural area and she is 60 years of age.
 So if this Government could give him a house here nearer in this township surround Queenstown so that they could live together with my father, because she can't walk properly too - as due to ill health.
 Secondly our wish is that this Mtshiselwa family should sit with us and then they should come forward and we reconcile because this is most important that we should reconcile whilst we are living.
 These are the people that we used to live with, they should also stage how we offended them and we shall also tell them how they offended  us and hurt us.  Thank you.

REV XUNDU: We thank you for your evidence sir.  I should ask you to take over.

BONGANI FINCA: We must thank Revd Xundu.  Are there any other questions?  Ntsiki Sandi, over to you.

MR SANDI: Mr Madubedube, you said here in Queenstown you came in 1950.  When you arrived here in Queenstown, what work were you doing?

UNKNOWN: I was a policeman.

MR SANDI: Then when did you stop to be a policeman?

UNKNOWN: That was in 1952 when members of the Congress were being beaten, then I said I can't beat the members of the Congress.

MR SANDI: When you joined the Community Council, what year was that?

UNKNOWN: It was between 1979 and 1980.
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MR SANDI: Is there anyone who perhaps advised you to join and be a Councillor?

UNKNOWN: We were members of the Advisory Board and then we abandoned as members of the ANC.  Then (indistinct) said we are leaving, then he said if you can't win the Whites, then join them.
 So as members of the Congress, we became members of the Advisory Board, then we could see that there was no penetration because on paper it was advertised that there would be a Council so people voted for the Councillors.

MR SANDI: ; When you became a Councillor, did you perhaps know how the people felt about Councillors?

UNKNOWN: People had no choice whatsoever and there was no one who was against the Councillors.

MR SANDI: On the day mentioned, excuse me Mr Madubedube, we are here in this Commission that is trying to create peace and reconciliation amongst the people, but this reconciliation should be set on the truth.  That's the reason the name of this Commission is the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, so we therefore ask you to be of assistance to this Commission in this regard.  Help us to get the truth that will lead us to reconciliation.
 I find it difficult that quite an intelligent person as you are should say before this Commission to be a Council was something that was accepted by the people unless you are going to elaborate and tell us how the people favoured Councillors.

UNKNOWN: It is because people were voting the Councillors in according to the wards and then the residents of Queenstown can also support me because we did a lot for them and I can mention two or three of what we did for them.
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 If you allow me, I can mention those.

MR SANDI: Go on.  But my question has been answered, could you - you say in Ciskei it was independent, are you going to say people supported the Ciskei independence, because people were voting for it?

UNKNOWN: Now what do you say?  What are you going to say because if people go to vote, don't you think they support that?

MR SANDI: Okay, you have said it.  Thank you Mr Madubedube.  Let me ask once more.  On the day your daughter sitting next to you, mentioned that is the day when the Councillors resigned in a general meeting, did you also resign willingly or you were forced by your children to resign?

UNKNOWN: No, we were not compelled to resign by anyone.  We took a decision in that meeting because people were not in favour of the Councillors, then we decided to write a letter and send it to them to their meeting and we also went to that meeting.
 Some even said the Council was bribing, was making people to - was accepting bribery.  Then I said who exactly was receiving bribery and even the person that said it, did not have any information to that effect, so we resigned willingly.
 We even submitted a letter of resignation.

MR SANDI: Over to you Mr Chairperson.

BONGANI FINCA: One last question is, looking back over your life at this time in 1996, because there are such times when we look back into our lives, are there any matters that you look at and see as the mistakes of live, that you may have been involved in?

UNKNOWN: I don't understand the question?
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BONGANI FINCA: Do you want me to speak in English?  Looking back to your life as a  Councillor, as a member of the Parliament in Ciskei, are there any matters which you feel you now regard as mistakes of your live?