Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-23

MR SITHOLE: And after we were launched and the IFP and the conflict started between ourselves and the ANC.  There were now people, people were walking up from the mountains every morning and they would go to their homes.  So that I also went to their chairperson to ask as to what was happening, and when I met the chairperson asking as to why they were sleeping in the mountains, and he said there is one IFP member who had come to inform them that the IFP was going to attack them.  And I said, but you know that when there is something happening, or if something is said by the IFP, I usually tell you, listen something is going to happen but I'm going to stop it.  I wanted to know who among the IFP wanted to attack the ANC, and I requested that they go back to their homes and stop sleeping in the mountains, and said to him if there is something that is about to happen I will come and inform you personally.  Indeed, they went back to their houses.
	And Randburg came to point out a place that was to be designated for the people in the area.  I think five shacks were removed, and on daybreak there were many shacks on the other side that was designated by the police.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sithole could you just explain this question of the shacks.  Where were they to be moved from, and where to, and how was this decided?

MR SITHOLE: It was Randburg that made the decision, saying that these people are around the river and they are not safe during floods.  And they also were living under these electric pylons or poles, which were not safe.
	And they were then moved and taken to a place near the grounds, and they were told to build up to that point and not cross the river.  And these shacks that were removed by TPA were removed and placed at the designated spot, and they never built across the designated spot.  But the following day I woke up to find that there were shacks on the area where shacks were not supposed to be built, and there was no-one from whom I could ask as to what was happening. And these IFP people also joined in building their shacks there, and they found Majola there, who said we don't want an IFP person here.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sithole, so if I understand you correctly, the people were now squatting where they were not supposed to squat, and this Mr Majola you referred to, who was he at that stage?

MR SITHOLE: I don't know what position he had within the ANC but he was an ANC member.  And I then said to these IFP members, if they had told you not to build shacks there, do not build shacks there, and they then came back.
	And after a few days the TPA police came and instructed the ANC members to move from that area and go back to the designated spot.  I don't know what happened at the time because a fight broke out.  And the following day the TPA members came in the company of police and soldiers, and instructed these ANC people to go back to the designated spot and move away from the place across the river.  And this fighting broke out.  The soldiers demolished the shacks.  And after the demolishing, the shacks were put up again at night. And the following day I was informed about a meeting that was to be convened, which meeting was convened by the ANC.  Yes indeed we met.  It was in the early evening after work, and when we met them they informed us that the old committee that was appointed by the community was no longer wanted.  And I then asked them as to why they did not want this committee, and wanted to know who was going to represent us at the office, and they said that they were going to represent us.  And I said to them, we are the IFP, who are going to represent us?  And they said okay, we give you this committee, and I said to them no, you cannot just push a committee to us just like that.  It is not the IFP that represented or appointed this committee.  Bring the community together and explain to them that you don't want this committee, you are now handing over this committee to the IFP.  And they said it's okay.
	And we had to meet with the community again, and I suggested we would meet on a Friday, and they said they will not be available on Friday.  And I said to them, if you will not be available on Friday, then you should come up with a date and convene such a meeting.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Sithole, if you could, could you more or less indicate was this incidents that were happening now, was this a long time before the day of the shooting, or was this now being in the close vicinity approximately of this?

MR SITHOLE: It was before the shooting.  It was long before the shooting.

MR CLAASSEN: What happened then?

MR SITHOLE: They then suggested that the meeting be held on Saturday, and we agreed on that day.  And it so happened that on Friday, just before it was Saturday, it was on Friday around dawn, I was using this truck, filling in water in the tanks, and there came the ANC youth, who said to me that I was being called.  I went to the youth and when I got there I met with a group of people who were armed with all assortment of weapons, axe, knobkerries, etc.  And they ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, sorry to interrupt.  You said something that I couldn't hear the translation of.  Before knobkerries you mentioned something that I couldn't understand what it was.  What else was that?  What was this group armed with?

MR SITHOLE: They had spears, axe,

MR LAX: What is akes, oh axe.  Okay.  Please continue, sorry to interrupt.

MR SITHOLE: They then said, would you please call the IFP youth to order.  Then I wanted to know what they had done, and they said these people are tearing apart our postcards, or our posters.  I wanted to know where they were, and they pointed them out.  I saw three boys.  I then called these boys and asked them why they were tearing apart these ANC posters and they said they have never done that.  And I warned them to the effect that I will call the police should I ever again hear of them as having done that.  And the ANC thanked me and they then rose with their axe and spears and they started running around putting up these posters.  And then I went back to work.  And when I knocked off I went home to sleep.
	And it so happened that at night there was a knock at the door.  On waking up to ask who it was, and I recognised the voices of the IFP youth outside.  There were four of them.  And when I enquired as to what was happening they told me that they were being attacked by the ANC.  And I then said to them, don't go back to the houses, instead you should go down the shacks, my brother's shack actually.  And they went down there and I went back to sleep.
	And there was another knock at the door and the people identified themselves as Zwane and Gcubu.  And I went to the door, and enquired to Zwane as to what was happening, and they told me they could not sleep because the ANC was attacking them.  And I told them, listen, I cannot wake up now from my  sleep and go down to look for these ANC people, I might easily get injured.  And I told them, listen, I've just ordered a group of youth to this shack, join them.  Join them at the shack.  Indeed they left.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen I see it's eleven o'clock.  Would this be a convenient time to take a short tea adjournment?

MR CLAASSEN: This would be convenient.

CHAIRPERSON: Then we'll take a short tea adjournment for approximately twenty minutes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: May I ask your indulgence and ask one of the victims to sit next to me so that I could discuss issues.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly Mr Cachalia.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And in addition I had indicated earlier that I appear on behalf of the victims, and I hadn't given their names.  At some stage before I cross-examine I will just put the names on record for the sake of completeness.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Cachalia.