Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-24

CHAIRPERSON: Today is the 24th June 1999.  The panel sitting to hear the matter of Mr Mbanjwa and Mr Ndaba consists of the same persons that have been sitting here since Monday.  Before we commence with the application of Mr Mbanjwa and Mr Ndaba, we would like to get an explanation from Ms Thabethe why this Committee has been kept waiting while she was consulting in the presence of the Committee when it was already in sitting because the request that was acceded to by the Chair of this Committee was to enable her to consult whilst Mr Wills was on his way to this venue.  Can she advance any reason why she continued to consult, notwithstanding the fact that the Committee had already taken its seat to commence with these proceedings?

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  Madam Chair I had approached Madam Chair to explain that I would like to consult with the victims of the family in the Zulu matter.  Maybe there was a misunderstanding between myself and the Madam Chair, I was not aware that it was in as far as until Mr John Wills arrives.  I though that I would consult with them and come back to the Committee Members.
	Secondly, Madam Chair, I was facing the other direction, I did not see until Mr Joe Japhta came to me, that the Committee Members had come into the hall, because I was facing the other direction, talking to the victims.  So I apologise, otherwise I would have come forward and explained.

CHAIRPERSON: Your apology is reluctantly accepted.  In the interest of time, will the legal representatives appearing in the applications of Mbanjwa and Mr Ndaba kindly place their names on record?

MR WILLS: Thank you, Madam Chair.  My name is John Wills, Attorney of Pietermaritzburg.  I am representing both applicants in this matter.

MR MUKADAM: Madam Chair, Members of the Committee, my name is Thalieb Mukadam of the Durban Bar.  I am instructed by the Legal Aid Board and I am appearing on behalf of the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you kindly spell your surname for me, Sir?

MR MUKADAM: M - U- K- A- D- A-M, initial T.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, you are appearing on behalf of the Committee as the Evidence Leader.

MS THABETHE: Yes, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, are we in a position to commence?

MR WILLS: Yes, indeed.  From my point of view I am ready to commence.  I believe my colleague's got a problem which he'll address to you in his own time.  Just so that the Committee is aware of how I intend leading the evidence, I'll be leading the evidence of Mr Ndaba first and secondly that of Mr Mbanjwa.

CHAIRPERSON: I see we have two affidavits, before you proceed, Mr Wills.  The affidavit of Sakhamuzi Horale Elvis Ndaba and the one of Tobias Ronnie Mbanjwa.

MR WILLS: Yes indeed, I beg leave to hand these up as supplementary to their amnesty applications.  The evidence will show that neither of the applicants were assisted by legal representatives at the time of them filling out the applications forms, they were referred to me yesterday and these affidavits were taken yesterday.  I have submitted copies to the Committee and all the other representatives at these proceedings.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we then receive them and have Mr Ndaba's affidavit as Exhibit A and Mr Mbanjwa's affidavit as Exhibit B.

MR WILLS: As it pleases.

MR MUKADAM: Madam Chair, if I may approach?  The problem that I am experiencing right now is this hearing is an application for amnesty against particular victims.  Those victims are not present as yet.  I understand that they come from Pietermaritzburg.  They had a problem with transport yesterday when I consulted with them.  I understand they may be experiencing similar problems.  Considering the idea of reconciliation that permeates these hearings, I would submit that this matter should stand down till the arrival of the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: When were you last in contact with your clients?

MR MUKADAM: Yesterday.  This matter was on the roll to be heard yesterday.  Unfortunately, due to some logistical problems that the Committee was having, the matter was adjourned till today.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you in a position to ascertain where they are presently?

MR MUKADAM: I'm not in that position, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you not in a position to phone anyone where they come from in Pietermaritzburg to find out at what time they left?

MR MUKADAM: I unfortunately do not have telephone numbers for them because they are not on the telephone.  I had canvassed that with them yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, a request is being made to this Committee to stand this matter down to allow the victims, who have indicated an intention to be present and to oppose these applications, to arrive because they are having transport problems.  What is your view thereto?

MR WILLS: I do not oppose the application.

CHAIRPERSON: This matter will then stand down until a later hour.  We are unable to state exactly as to what time the matter should stand down, because we are currently having a matter that is standing down to 10.30.  Am I correct Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Madam Chair.

MR MUKADAM: I am indebted to the Chair and the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, that being the case, are we in a position to proceed with the application of Mr Zulu?  I am aware that the legal representative of Mr Zulu is present. I had indicated to him however that his matter would not be capable of being heard immediately and that it can only be heard after Ms Moodley is here at 10.30 and the legal representative for Mr Zulu was going to enter into some negotiation with Ms Moodley to try and have Mr Zulu's application heard first before Ms Moodley's matter which is part-heard.  Can you give us any direction in this regard?

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair, I haven't finished consulting with the victims and I would like to be afforded maybe 15 minutes to consult with the victims whereafter I will be in a position to proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: But is Mr Zulu's lawyer still around?

MS THABETHE: I will have to find that one out Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn until 10 o'clock.

MS THABETHE: As the Committee pleases.

MR MUKADAM: As the Committee pleases.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS