Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: He was interrogated first then thereafter he did not co-operate, Luit Landman instructed us to torture him, that was myself, Jack Baloi and Patrick Ngamela  We tortured him, we tied him with a bandage, his hands were at the back, we tied him on the legs.  We took a blanket, a sealing blanket which was used by detainees at the cells, we made him to lie down and we covered him with the blanket.  We rolled him so that he will face upwards.  Then somebody would sit on his legs.  I had a small tube.  I would cover him on the face with that tube up to a point where he would tell us the truth.

MR JOHNSON: You covered his face with this tube.  Do I understand correctly that this person would then suffocate?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR JOHNSON: How many times, or - yes how many times was this person, this brother of Abel Choane, how many times was he tortured in this way, by putting this tube over his face?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I would say we did it five to six times.

MR JOHNSON: And in each period, how long would this tube be over his face?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: It would depend, because you'd feel as to whether that person is suffocating and those signs would tell us when to move the tube.  It may be some seconds to a minute.  We will see some sings, when you see him that he is suffocating, and then we'll move that tube quickly.

MR JOHNSON: For how long in total did this period of torture go on on this person?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: We started around 2 in the morning up to 4 o'clock in the morning.

MR JOHNSON: And is that ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: When did you start?  How long did it last?  From 12 o'clock till 4 o'clock, or from what hour to 4 o'clock?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Approximately three hours.

MR JOHNSON: Did you receive the necessary information that you were looking for from this person who was tortured?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: He informed us that he was together with his brother, but he did not know as to whether he went to Welkom, but he knew that he was around because he was with him.

MR JOHNSON: Who gave you the instructions at that stage to torture this person?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: We received the instructions from Luit Landman and Barnard.

MR JOHNSON: And were they also present during these tortures?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Landman would be present, but I'm not sure about Barnard because we were many.

MR JOHNSON: Is there any other way, except the tube which was used, which this person was tortured with?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Even by slapping him and hitting him with the fist.  Maybe other methods were used in my absence, I'm not sure.

MR JOHNSON: After this person was tortured, do you know what happened to him?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I did not know what happened to him, Chairperson.

MR JOHNSON: At which stage, or is it correct so that this person which you were looking for at that stage, Abel Choane, was also arrested later on, is that correct?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: That is correct, Chairperson, we learned that he was arrested later.

MR JOHNSON: And were you also then present during his interrogation?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I was present when he was interrogated and then again when he was tortured.

MR JOHNSON: Were you also involved in torturing this Abel Choane?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Correct, Chairperson, I played a role.

MR JOHNSON: What did you do?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: We were slapping him.  If I remember well, we used the tube method to him.

MR JOHNSON: Did you personally hit Abel Choane?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: No, Chairperson, I did not but I used the tube.  I covered his face with the tube.

MR JOHNSON: Now can you remember the date on which this incident would have taken place?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: No, Chairperson, I don't remember the date.

MR JOHNSON: And on whose instructions was Abel Choane tortured?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: By Landman and by Matsisa's instructions.

MR JOHNSON: And were they also present during this torture of Abel Choane himself?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Correct, Chairperson, they were present, they came in and out.

MR JOHNSON: ;   Can you remember approximately at which time this torture would have started and at which time they would have finished?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I don't remember Chairperson, but it took a longer time.

MR JOHNSON: Would you say it was longer than his brother's torture?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR JOHNSON: The method that was used on him, if I understand you correctly, he was hit with hands and with fists and you again used the tube on his face to suffocate him.

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: The person who was hitting him has since died, he was shot and killed, that is Oupa Mashile.

MR JOHNSON: Now at that stage whilst he was tortured by being hit, did you do anything during that stage?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: No, Chairperson.

MR JOHNSON: Can you remember how many times did you put the tube over his face?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: It was not only me who was tubing him but that was done four to five times.

MR JOHNSON: But can you remember how many times you did it?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I tubed him many times, but I recollect only two to three times.

MR JOHNSON: Can you remember if Mr Abel Choane at any stage during or after this torturing actually bled?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: No Chairperson, I don't remember.

MR JOHNSON: After Mr Choane was tortured, do you know what happened to him?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I don't remember, I don't know Chairperson what happened to him but he was handled by people who were at ground floor.

MR JOHNSON: You mentioned a person that was also present during Abel Choane's torture, by the name of Oupa Mashile, is that correct?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR JOHNSON: Concerning Oupa Mashile himself, Oupa Mashile was actually murdered later on, is that correct?  He was shot dead.

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: We learned that he was shot dead in Welkom.

MR JOHNSON: Do you know how or by whom he was shot?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: He used not to come to duty and then on the pay day he had a fight with Luit Landman telling him that he did not come to work regularly, he's going to deduct some money from his salary, then they had a problem, then Oupa Mashile said he's leaving the unit.  He did not stay for a long time because he had four to five taxis, so it seems they did not trust him.  After that we were informed that he was shot dead by MK members.  When we were preparing to retaliate, we were told not to go there.

MR JOHNSON: Do you know if Luit Landman or anybody from askari itself, was involved in the killing of Oupa Mashile?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I did not know because I was scared by the dispute they had, but I had that suspicion.

MR JOHNSON: The only thing you had was a suspicion, you did not know, you did not have any knowledge that anybody was involved, is this correct?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: That is correct, Chairperson, it was a naked suspicion.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, can I just come in there?  You say as you were about to go and retaliate someone told you not to go there, who was that?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Landman and Barnard informed us that they said we should not go even to his funeral.

MR JOHNSON: I'm carrying on to a matter where another person was tortured, a person by the name of Jikila.  Do you remember this incident?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I do remember this person, Chairperson.

MR JOHNSON: Can you remember when this took place?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I remember Chairperson when it happened.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Just before we step off the previous one, how long after Choane left the police was he killed, six months, a month, a year, or what?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Approximately three to four, four to five months.  He was a taxi owner.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR JOHNSON: I'm carrying on with the matter of Jikila.  Can you remember when this torture took place, the date and the year?