Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-30

MR GORDHAN: And so on, yes and Mr Botha is very well aware of this particular one, he has made prior reference I think that's Mr Lax and Mrs Bosman might be able to confirm?  The purpose of this question Chairperson, is to establish whether full disclosure has been made in respect of my arrest which is tied to my assault and which is tied to the rest of Mr Ndaba so all these interconnected events I don't one can clinically separate the one from the other.
	So Mr Botha, I put the question back to you.  Who, from your side, that is the security branch had this flat under surveillance?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Warrant Officer van der Westhuizen.

MR GORDHAN: And was this warrant officer also the person in the flat when I entered it and was accosted and arrested?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I believe so, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: So he was the person who held the gun to my head at that time?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I would not know, I was not there, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: From which point in time was that flat under surveillance?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: For quite a while Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: Can you pin an approximate time to it?  A week before, ten days before, two months before?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I cannot attach a specific time to it.  We at least were aware of the flat for about five weeks, five to six weeks before your arrest and from Charles and Mbusu Shabalala on the Saturday together.

MR GORDHAN: So both Mr Ndaba and Mr Shabalala attested to the fact or rather gave you information that there was this flat that someone like myself was actually using it and so on?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I have not finished my answer yet.  I said from that date I have testified that the flat was under permanent surveillance, that was my previous testimony and Lieutenant du Preez and I went into that flat illegally and removed certain documentation from there, that was my evidence.

MR GORDHAN: Okay, let's just pin the facts down a little bit more.  You said you became aware of the fact and I just want to understand you clearly, obviously from Mr Ndaba five weeks before the arrest.  True?  You're also saying that sometime after that point in time which means for several weeks, on and off or perhaps continuously, that flat was under surveillance by yourself?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR GORDHAN: You're also saying that finally when Mr Ndaba and Mr Shabalala were in your hands that both of them actually told you that there was such a flat and it was used for various things?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Mr Ndaba told me Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: Now you were given instructions on the 11th after your meeting in Pretoria with the then General van der Merwe that no arrests would be undertaken before the 16th July, is that true?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, we are going over evidence that I have already rendered in detail, it's not that I do not want to testify to this but we are revisiting the scene and it does not make sense to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this very relevant to what we have to know, Mr Gordhan?

MR GORDHAN: Yes Chairperson, it is and in time we will get to the relevance and I believe that as a victim I have the right ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no I'm just asking.

MR GORDHAN: Without taking undue time to put certain facts before you.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could answer the question?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Will you repeat the question please?

MR GORDHAN: According to your previous evidence on the 11th July after having or when you actually met General van der Merwe in Pretoria you were told that no action, therefore no arrests would happen or could happen or should happen before the 16th July, is that true?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, my evidence was that the request was that no arrests would be made other than from the 16th.

MR GORDHAN: Now I put it to you that Aness Sanka and myself who were both arrested at about the same time were in fact arrested around 10 o'clock on the morning of the 12th July, would you confirm that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I would not know exactly what time, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You wouldn't deny that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It's possible.

MR GORDHAN: I also put it to you that having had knowledge of the flat for by your admission some five weeks and having had it under surveillance for several weeks and having conceded that you've actually entered the flat, the point I'll come back to that my arrest, Aness Sanka's arrest and the arrest of several other operatives within this Vula Operation as it later became known was in fact part of a well thought through planned and coordinated set of arrests, would you agree?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: Why?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The arrests which led to your own arrest was preceded by that of Mr Siphiwe Nyanda who after he became aware of the surveillance of him, he was arrested and thereafter your arrest followed.

MR GORDHAN: Mr Chairperson and Mr Botha I actually put it to you that that is not correct, that given the whole history of special branch operation and given the order of arrests of myself, Mr Sanka and then subsequently others and Mr Lalla can confirm his a little later, at about 12 o'clock on the same day, in fact that these were premeditated arrests, all designed to happen in an organised and coordinated way in defiance of the order that you received in Pretoria?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson that is not correct.

MR GORDHAN: Let's come back to Mr Ndaba.  Did he ever in his so-called liaison with you prior to his arrest actually identify me by my true name?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: I put it to you that's a lie, he didn't know my true name.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, Mr Pravine is very well known to many people and when you communicate in codes one does not expect that you will not be addressed by your code name, your code name was well known.

MR GORDHAN: What was my code name?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I cannot recall any more.

MR GORDHAN: Perhaps you weren't even told?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, the documents are available here that's been handed in to this Commission in previous evidence.  We can always go back to it if you want to know what your code name was.

MR GORDHAN: No, I know what's my code name, thank you.  Where did Mr Ndaba stay while he was here from the period 3rd February approximately until his arrest on the 6th, the 7th of July?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: In Durban, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: Where?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Several places.

MR GORDHAN: Can you name them?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Amongst others at Brickfield where you were arrested.

MR GORDHAN: And?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The exact addresses are not known to me any more.

MR GORDHAN: I'm not that unreasonable.  All I want to know is which suburbs did he live in?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: If I recall correctly I think amongst others there was KwaMashu, there was an address in one of the Indian residential areas, I cannot recall exactly, Chairperson.  I may confusing them for rendezvous points from where you met frequently, was a DPC.

MR GORDHAN: But did he put it to you that most of his time in Durban he had to spend at the flat in Brickfield Road?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson, I cannot recall that detail.

MR GORDHAN: Well I put to you that he in fact spent most of his time in the Meerbank area with a family that he actually lived with, you would have never confirmed that of course.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It's possible Chairperson, I cannot recall all the addresses.