Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-02

VERNON NADEL: That is correct.

DR KLATZOW: And that it had not disabled the rest of the facility?

VERNON NADEL: No, the radios were still working but as I mentioned it could well have affected the reception of the transmissions.

DR KLATZOW: Correct.  But did it?

VERNON NADEL: Well obviously in this case, yes because.

DR KLATZOW: Well no no, let's deal with that a little more simply.  Did you have any difficulty hearing from them on their departure from Taipei?

VERNON NADEL: Well it wasn't on our shift, it was on the previous shift, no.

DR KLATZOW: Was there any difficulty that you were aware of?

VERNON NADEL: It appears not, no.

DR KLATZOW: What would suddenly make that difficulty?

VERNON NADEL: I'm not a technical expert as far as how radios work and the transmissions etc, but weather can cause transmissions problems.

DR KLATZOW: We'll get to the weather in a minute.  Because weather is a changing phenomenon and the aircraft's position in relation to that weather is a changing phenomenon.  Are there standing orders which govern the way in which you operate ZUR?

VERNON NADEL: No.

DR KLATZOW: Is there not a requirement that you make, try and make contact with the aircraft every hour to hour and a half?

VERNON NADEL: No, there is a requirement if the aircraft doesn't call you, you try and cell call them which obviously we tried and to no avail.

DR KLATZOW: And what effort did you expend to try and raise the aircraft after it failed to contact you, on the hour, the first time, on the hour?

VERNON NADEL: Well the aircraft was cell called but they failed to reply.

DR KLATZOW: So you cell called it and it failed to reply?  What action did you take?

VERNON NADEL: Well there is no action to take, it happens quite often, well it used to happen very often that the aircraft would not call you.

DR KLATZOW: And is there not a laid down procedure whereby you try and contact them via speed bird or one of the other means of raising them?

VERNON NADEL: No.

DR KLATZOW: Now at the hearing, the Margo hearing, that was not your evidence.

VERNON NADEL: It was my evidence.  I believe somebody else said there was standing orders.

DR KLATZOW: The evidence that was led at the Margo Commission was that if the aircraft was not contacted, it was a serious matter and that you would go to considerable lengths to try and contact them?

VERNON NADEL: No, that's not how it was.

DR KLATZOW: Now, let's get back to something else because I want to return to this.  A number of people have phoned you to discuss this over the years.  Is that correct?

VERNON NADEL: I've had many people calling me to discuss a lot of speculation over the years, yes.

DR KLATZOW: That's correct.  What you consider speculation?

VERNON NADEL: Absolutely.

DR KLATZOW: And amongst those people was a man called Leon, sorry Nils Van Wyk who used to work for the SABC?

VERNON NADEL: I can't recall.  It sounds familiar but I cannot recall exactly.

DR KLATZOW: He phoned you when you were in Miami, as did I.

VERNON NADEL: Oh yes I do recall now, yes.

DR KLATZOW: And at the time he asked you similar questions to the ones that I am asking you now, namely who was on duty with you that night?

VERNON NADEL: I can't recall.

DR KLATZOW: Well I'm going to tell you what he told me and if necessary he will tell this Commission.  He said that you identified that you were there together with Mr Gavin Dick and that there was a third person whom you would not identify.

VERNON NADEL: I don't, I may have misunderstood his question but the question that's been presented to me on many occasions was, was there a high ranking person from the airline in flight operations.

DR KLATZOW: Listen to the question very carefully.  He asked you who was there and you said to him, there was myself and Gavin Dick and there was a third person whom we will call Mr X and in his report and in his contemporaneous notes he refers to this person as Mr X.

VERNON NADEL: Well, I mentioned his name was Pete Pelser, I didn't think it was any.

DR KLATZOW: No, he says you specifically refused to mention his name.

VERNON NADEL: Well at the time I felt there's no reason for me to talk to somebody that has no authority as far as questioning me about the speculation that was going on at the time and the rumours that were so rife.  He came to see me and he had no, as I say authority from anybody, it wasn't an official enquiry so I didn't feel it was necessary to talk to him.

DR KLATZOW: But you did tell him there was a third person and that person he called Mr X?

VERNON NADEL: Possibly.

DR KLATZOW: Now let's get back to that tape.  How did the tape go missing?

VERNON NADEL: I don't know.

DR KLATZOW: How did it get out of ZUR?

VERNON NADEL: I'm not sure at what stage somebody decided they needed to take the tape but of course there were many senior people in ZUR at the time, it could have been taken at any time.

DR KLATZOW: Do you remember the tape being taken?

VERNON NADEL: No.

DR KLATZOW: Could the tape have got out of there on it's own?

VERNON NADEL: Absolutely not.

DR KLATZOW: Correct.  So somebody must have come and taken it?

VERNON NADEL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: Did anybody ever hand it back to ZUR?

VERNON NADEL: I don't know.

DR KLATZOW: When you tape record, and put a tape on, is taken strictly from the end of the row that you take, is that not correct?

VERNON NADEL: That is correct.

DR KLATZOW: You would not go to the middle of the row of tapes and take a tape out?

VERNON NADEL: It's highly unlikely but if it does happen, it obviously is a mistake.

DR KLATZOW: Well under what circumstances could a gross mistake of that nature be made?

VERNON NADEL: I don't know.

DR KLATZOW: Could you suggest a circumstance where somebody would under standing orders to take the tape from the end, goes to the middle of the row of tapes and takes the tape out?

VERNON NADEL: I have no idea.

DR KLATZOW: Do you think that that is a likely possibility?

VERNON NADEL: It's unlikely but it could happen.

DR KLATZOW: Right.  Well let's examine that in a little more detail.  The evidence given at the Margo Commission was to the effect that the tape had been either overtaped inadvertently or lost, is that correct?

VERNON NADEL: That is correct.

DR KLATZOW: And not only that there was really very little enquiry into the disappearance of that tape by Mr Margo?

VERNON NADEL: Sorry, can you repeat the question?

DR KLATZOW: There was in fact very little enquiry any further than that by Margo.  And that was Margo's finding?

VERNON NADEL: I believe so yes.

DR KLATZOW: Now let's look at the first possibility.  If the tape had been overtaped, you would have been able to go to somebody and say I'm sorry here is the tape.  It's been overtaped.  I don't know how it got overtaped but there is the tape.

VERNON NADEL: That is possible yes.

DR KLATZOW: Well that is likely isn't it?

VERNON NADEL: Yes, more than likely.

DR KLATZOW: Was that ever done?

VERNON NADEL: I don't know.  I cannot recall.

DR KLATZOW: Did you ever do it?

VERNON NADEL: No.

DR KLATZOW: Did anybody to your knowledge ever do it?

VERNON NADEL: I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just ask, at the time of the enquiry, did you personally become aware that it was muted as one of the possibilities that the tape was overtaped?

VERNON NADEL: Yes, I believe it was.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you seek to establish where the tape was and whether in fact the tape should not be taken to the enquiry if that was a moot question?

VERNON NADEL: What was the question?  I don't believe I was in the position to investigate that kind of thing due to the magnitude of the occurrence and the people that were very much more senior to me that were involved with the case of the day.