Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR JORDI: My name is Peter Jordi, I appear for the Sono family, the Shabalala family and the Chili family.  Madam, your attorney has handed out this letter dated the 24th of May 1995 and I, they did not comment on its contents adversely when they did so.  So, I take it you accept its contents.  Is that correct?  This letter addressed to the Commissioner of Police?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR JORDI: So you accept its contents?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR JORDI: And I note there that they say that they were acting according to their instructions.  They say,
"We act on behalf of Mrs Mandela according to our instructions...",
etcetera, etcetera.  So, they were acting on your instructions when they wrote this letter?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, Sir.

MR JORDI: Right.  You have been seen in public dressed in a camouflage uniform.  Am I right?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR JORDI: Right and that uniform was the uniform of Umkhonto weSizwe, the armed wing of the African National Congress?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR JORDI: So, you were wearing the uniform of an Umkhonto weSizwe soldier?  Is that right?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct, yes.

MR JORDI: Right.  During, we all know that you have played a prominent role in the anti-apartheid struggle and I am sure that during the dark days of apartheid, perhaps, even after the unbanning of the ANC, there must have been times when you thought that you were at risk of being killed during the course of the struggle and I am sure that you accepted that risk as just something to bear, a petty burden to bear given your prominent role in the struggle.  Is that right?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That risk exists to this day.  That is why there was a bomb scare yesterday.

MR JORDI: But you were quite willing to bear the risk of dying during the course of the struggle?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: All of us.

MR JORDI: All of, yes, all of the people ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: All those who fought for liberation.

MR JORDI: That is right, but you, I am asking not about other people and how they felt, I am asking about your particular feelings.  You must have felt prepared to die for the struggle?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I was one of those who were prepared to die for the struggle.

MR JORDI: Quite prepared to put your life on the line for the struggle.  Is that right?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not in an irresponsible manner.

MR JORDI: No, obviously, you do not want to just throw your life away?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: By that ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: No soldier wants to throw his or her life away ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, well, I ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: ... during the course of a struggle.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, Sir.  I do not really understand your line of questioning, yes.

MR JORDI: Ja, but, all right.

DR BORAINE: I think you have made the point Mr Jordi.  Go ahead.

MR JORDI: And you said during the Section 29 inquiry that you were a member of Umkhonto weSizwe during the period under discussion.  In other words, the period particularly of 1988 and 1989.  Am I right?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR JORDI: So, you were a member of the underground army of the African National Congress, you have worn the uniform of an African National Congress solider, an Umkhonto weSizwe soldier, and you were prepared to die for the struggle?  Now, I put it to you that someone who is prepared to die, someone who is a soldier, someone who is involved in the underground war is not going to throw their life away lightly and that they are prepared to kill as well as to die.  Am I right?  What do you say about that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not understand what you are saying.

MR JORDI: So, as a soldier, who was prepared to die, you were not prepared to kill?  Were you prepared to kill during the course of the struggle, you were a soldier?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was not prepared to kill.

MR JORDI: A soldier who is not ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Really.

MR JORDI: ... prepared to kill.  All right, well, I will ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was an operative ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: ... leave that issue.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... of MK.

MR JORDI: You wore the uniform, you were prepared ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was an ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: ... to die.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... operative of MK.  I did not go to Lusaka, to Angola to go and train, I was an operative on the ground ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: I do not think ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... underground.

MR JORDI: ... I can take this issue further with you at the moment.  I note, further, that you have said already in your evidence today that you had complete confidence in Jerry Richardson up until yesterday when he himself admitted that he was a police informer.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I had no reason to believe the stories I saw ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: All right.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... because worse stories had been written about me.

MR JORDI: So, you agree you said that you had complete confidence ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I had confidence in Jerry Richardson until he sat here and confessed to being a spy and confessed to six murders.

MR JORDI: Right.  When did you know that he had handed in his amnesty application and that in his amnesty application he claimed that he had murdered Lolo Sono, Sibuniso Shabalala, Kuki Zwane, who else, Stompie Sepei and various other people?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think I heard in the in-camera hearing.

MR JORDI: In the in-camera hearing.  So, that must have been in about September 1997?  When was the in-camera hearing?  Is that right?

DR BORAINE: That is right.

MR JORDI: So, in September 1997, at the very latest, you knew that he had admitted or claimed to have performed these murders?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Ja, so I heard.

MR JORDI: And you still had confidence in him until yesterday?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, that was a matter of expressing oneself in the sense that then it was an in-camera hearing, Jerry Richardson was not here, I myself had been associated or linked, the famous press expression, linked to eight murders.  What reason would I have had to believe that the things that were alleged Richardson had done, ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: So, despite ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... were, in fact, true?

MR JORDI: So, despite the fact that he himself had claimed in his own amnesty application that he had committed numerous murders, you still had confidence in him?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was not shown the amnesty application.

MR JORDI: You said you knew about it in September 1997.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: A reference ... (intervention).

DR BORAINE: Mr Jordi.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... was made to it here.

DR BORAINE: Hold a minute, please.  Mr Jordi, please do not interrupt the witness.  I know you are pressured for time, but give Mrs Mandela an opportunity to reply and if you could just conduct it a little more friendly, please.

MR JORDI: All right.  I beg your pardon, Mr Commissioner.  Sorry, Madam, have you finished?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not even know what you were saying there, Mr Chairman ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: Well, you said, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... you were rattling so many things that ...

MR JORDI: All right.  You said that you knew of his amnesty application, which ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was not shown the amnesty application ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: Mr Commissioner, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... will you ask the ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... by this forum.

MR JORDI: ... witness not to interrupt me, please?