Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-23

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So at this stage if those people wanted to build a bomb in the trailer and if they wanted to pull it to Germiston, they had the trailer, they also had Le Roux's vehicles which had a towbar on it, which could have pulled the trailer, is that correct?

J H VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Now, can you think of a reason why Barnard, Myburgh and Le Roux went to de Wet and asked de Wet look, we need your car because you've got a towbar on your car?

J H VLOK: I wouldn't be able to say, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Would you agree with me that it's ridiculous because he had the necessary vehicle with the necessary towbar?

J H VLOK: At that stage I did not know what was going on and I would not be able to see who gave Jan de Wet his instructions.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: If you look at the situation, Myburgh and Barnard, they had a vehicle, Le Roux's vehicle with a towbar and a trailer.  Was it necessary to obtain another vehicle?  That's the point I'm trying to make.

MS VAN DER WALT: Chairperson, Mr Le Roux testified, Mr de Wet testified, the representatives of the family had the bundles, they knew what was written in the applications - those questions were asked to Le Roux and de Wet - this applicant cannot answer those questions.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Chairperson, surely I can continue with my cross questioning on the basis I consider to be good?  I noticed it yesterday and I kept that part of my cross questioning for this applicant because now he's making it difficult for De Wet.  I do not want that he must say that he must say anything on behalf of de Wet but I want from him - or the point I'm trying to make is - here's the necessary vehicle, here's the trailer and in his eyes will he agree with me - I'm making the suggestion to him that it wasn't necessary to look for another vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's put it that way then.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Thank you.  Sir, I put it to you then that as far you were concerned it was not necessary to make use of another vehicle because you have a vehicle with a towbar which belongs to Le Roux and Le Roux is together with Myburgh and Barnard?

J H VLOK: Please repeat the question?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: As far as you are concerned, the way you saw it and also seen from the eyes of a reasonable person, it was not necessary to go and look for another vehicle because here you have a vehicle with a towbar and a trailer and Barnard, Le Roux and Koper Myburgh wanted to build a bomb in this trailer and explode it.

J H VLOK: Chairperson, at that stage I did not know the bomb was going to Germiston, so I cannot answer.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But the point is they did not need another vehicle, they had one?

J H VLOK: I was not at the game farm at all.  I did not know that they were looking for a vehicle, I only heard it from the other people's evidence, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I'll leave that for argument, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vlok, did you belong to the Wen Kommando?

J H VLOK: No Chairperson, I was a member of the Ystergarde.  I had no rank in the Kommandos.

CHAIRPERSON: And the Ystergarde?

J H VLOK: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you?

J H VLOK: I was a Captain.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?

J H VLOK: A Captain, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: In the Ystergarde - from whom would you have received instructions?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I would have received orders from a co-captain and officers above me and if needed that I must receive instructions from other officers that was placed in control of a specific task or operation then I would have received it from them.

CHAIRPERSON: The order to accompany people to the farms etc., in what capacity did you do that?

J H VLOK: Brigadier Leon van der Merwe told me that I must take all the people who arrived late to Koesterfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: At the office - what type of work did you do there?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I did security work, I was Commander, guard Commander - I placed the guards around head office as well as the leader's house and the guarders house next to it.  I did paperwork and other orders that was given to me I also had to follow that.

CHAIRPERSON: By going to the post office etc?

J H VLOK: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: To accompany people to the farms - was that one of those instructions, office instructions?

J H VLOK: Chairperson, that was what Brigadier van der Merwe told me when we left to the game farm - he said that I must accompany the people to Koesterfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: What type of order was that?

J H VLOK: It was an order from my Commander.

CHAIRPERSON: But the way I understand it is that the Ystergarde was mainly people who protected the leadership.

J H VLOK: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: This instruction to accompany people to the farm was not one of the duties of the Ystergarde would do you agree with that?  It was not a protection job but rather just to show people where to go - if I understand you and correct me if I'm wrong?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, at that stage it was an order from Brigadier Leon van der Merwe that I'd followed.

CHAIRPERSON: But it was not an order to a member of the Ystergarde surely?

J H VLOK: At that stage it was because it came from my Commander but it was not the type of work that the Ystergarde did.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not asked to do something within your capacity as a member of the Ystergarde?  It was not protection work?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, we not only did security, we were also responsible for training and any other tasks that was given to us by our officers.

CHAIRPERSON: But wasn't it one of your tasks or duties that would fall under your office duties and that is to accompany people to the farm?

J H VLOK: It was told to me Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But the Ystergarde was a special and elite group of people, is that not true?

J H VLOK: Repeat please?

CHAIRPERSON: The Ystergarde was a special unit, is that not true?

J H VLOK: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: It was an elite group?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And if I understand the evidence they mainly protected the leadership of the AWB, they also did certain training courses for new members etc?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Their work was not to go to the post office, to do paperwork, to go accompany people to a specific place etc., is that not true?

J H VLOK: In general, no, but if you do get that instruction you must do it.

CHAIRPERSON: But to accompany people to a certain place was more in the line of office work, is that not true?

J H VLOK: Not at that stage, Mr Chairperson, because at that stage people were called up to the Western Transvaal in order to protect the Volkstaat and to enforce or command this Volkstaat from the government of the day and to stop the elections.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever go back to the office?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, everyday I continued with my daily duties

CHAIRPERSON: After you accompanied the people to the farm did you go back to the office?

J H VLOK: Yes I did.

CHAIRPERSON: When?

J H VLOK: Monday the 25th.

CHAIRPERSON: And when did you go there - to Magaliesberg?

J H VLOK: The 24th.

CHAIRPERSON: So the following day you went back?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What time did you take these people to Magaliesberg?  The 24th, how late that day did you take the people?

J H VLOK: It was in the evening.

CHAIRPERSON: And what time did you go back to the office the following day?

J H VLOK: Early the next morning, I do not exactly know what time it was.

CHAIRPERSON: So it seems as if you just helped people to get to Magaliesberg but you were constantly at the office, so your work was at the office and no other place?

J H VLOK: My work was at the office, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.