Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-15

MR WILLIAMS: Do you dispute the fact that some of the people belonged to CAYCO and other people were soccer people, soccer players or members of a soccer club?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Who were in the building?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you dispute the fact that some of these people had cars and they in fact came there that night with cars?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot.

MR WILLIAMS: If they were in the building, at the time when the bomb went off, and they came there with cars, where would their cars have been parked?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Probably in the parking area.

MR WILLIAMS: But according to your evidence,  there were no cars in the parking area when the bomb was detonated?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is my evidence.

MR WILLIAMS: But yet the fact is, you concede that they could have been in the building, when the bomb was detonated, does it make sense to you?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I say there were no cars in the parking area when the bomb was detonated, and consequently I accepted that there were no persons in the building.

MR WILLIAMS: But in your own mind, can you possibly explain if the people who were there with cars, were inside the building, where would their cars have been parked?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: In the parking area I suppose.

MR WILLIAMS: I will leave it with that, and leave it for argument.

CHAIRPERSON: Would this be a convenient time to take the tea adjournment?  We will take a 20 minute tea adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ABRAM VAN ZYL: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Just before we continue, I would just like to mention that certain travel arrangements have been changed, so we will be able to have a normal day today, if required.  We don't have to leave early.
	Mr Williams?

MR WESSELS: Sorry Mr Chairman, are you saying that we are not adjourning here earlier?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that a problem Mr Wessels?

MR WESSELS: It is a problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it?   What time is your flight?

MR WESSELS: Two o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Two o'clock?  Okay, I was unaware of that and I apologise.  Mr Lax had a flight that was early and we got the feedback that people wanted to sit, so Mr Lax has changed his travel plans.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairperson, I don't know if it will help if I tell the Committee that I won't be longer than 30 minutes.

MR WESSELS: Mr Chairperson, let's carry on for a while and see where we are heading for, and see where the next witness takes us.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LAX: I will just need to check if I can keep my flight then, rather than loose it.  With comrades tomorrow, it is going to be impossible to get another flight earlier, so will you just get Molly please.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Williams?

MR WILLIAMS: (Cont)
	Thank you.  Mr van Zyl, I just want to put it to you, what my instructions are about what actually happened that night at the premises, at the ELC.
	Firstly my instructions are that Mr Ferndale was not even there that night.  Secondly, only two people who were associated with the Kewtown Youth Movement,  had vehicles and they were Osman and Mr Ferndale.
	Thirdly at the time of the incident ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, you are saying only two people in the organisation?

MR WILLIAMS: In the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Not that night had vehicles, because it would be a contradiction that Ferndale wasn't there, but his vehicle ...

MR WILLIAMS: In the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Two in the organisation had vehicles?

MR WILLIAMS: At the time of the incident, Mr Ferndale was no longer actively involved in the Kewtown Youth Movement.  On that particular night, at the first meeting of the Kewtown Youth Movement, firstly it was a meeting of the entire organisation and not just the Steering Committee members.  Do you deny any of those?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot dispute that.

MR WILLIAMS: Secondly at the first meeting, Osman Alexander was not there and not one member of the Youth came there that night with a vehicle?  Can you dispute that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: You have heard my evidence-in-chief.

MR WILLIAMS: It is my further instructions that everyone who attended that meeting, lived in the vicinity of Kewtown, lived in Kewtown actually and walked to the venue and back?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It could be.

MR WILLIAMS: You have seen yesterday at the inspection in loco the hall itself is in close proximity to the flats and of the houses there, and it is my instructions that the people lived in that vicinity, so there was no need in fact for them to come there with cars?

CHAIRPERSON: I think what was apparent from the inspection in loco that there were residential areas in the close vicinity, in the form of those flats and I think also at the front entrance of that street there, there were other residential areas.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you want to comment on that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That could be.

MR WILLIAMS: It is my further instructions that shortly before eight o'clock that night, approximately ten to eight, Mr Hardien came to the hall and called Mr Williams, that is myself, out of the meeting and told him that he had received a death threat and that he was concerned.  Would you dispute that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I don't know about that.

MR WILLIAMS: While they were busy talking, other Youth members came out and as they suspected that he worked with the Police or that he was an informer, in fact, there were rumours at the stage that he was an informant of the Murder and Robbery Squad and that he was handled by Mr Ganger?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I don't know about that.

MR WILLIAMS: His presence there had a disruptive effect, sorry, just, while he was busy talking to Mr Williams, the members came out and there was a hostile atmosphere there, upon which he left the premises through the front entrance of the building?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I don't know about that.

MR WILLIAMS: His presence had a disruptive effect and the meeting ended, the meeting of the Kewtown Youth Movement ended a few minutes later?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot dispute that.

MR WILLIAMS: As the Youth members left the building through the front section, members of the Cape Youth Congress turned up and wanted to know whether they could use the venue?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I don't know about that.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you dispute that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot.

MR WILLIAMS: At the same time, Osman Alexander also turned up with a vehicle?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is possible.

MR WILLIAMS: At least four people who attended the meeting of the Cape Youth Congress, had vehicles and were in fact there with vehicles?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is possible.

MR WILLIAMS: Two of the vehicles were parked in the street in front of the building, another vehicle was parked in the parking area, inside the building and another vehicle was parked at the premises adjacent to the ELC?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is possible.

MR WILLIAMS: Besides the one person who parked at the back, at the parking area of the building, there were other vehicles there as well at the time that the bomb, when the person parked the vehicle there, there were other cars there as well?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I did testify that there were vehicles in the parking area that night.

MR WILLIAMS: They will testify further that as they were about to enter the hall, the principal of the building, Mrs Beulah Fredericks confronted them and told them not to use the hall because the soccer club was supposed to use the hall and they were then requested to use the boardroom instead, do you dispute that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot.

MR WILLIAMS: A few minutes after they commenced with their meeting, the bomb exploded in the hall?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It is possible.

MR WILLIAMS: They will testify further that at the time when the bomb went off, the place was well lit, a few cars were parked at the parking area at the back, two cars were parked at the front section and - which are clear indications that there were people, or there must have been people in the premises?