Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-07

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: Yes, even under those difficult times, as it is being said, here you had a situation where you had a disgruntled few leaders of the army in the camp and the cadres and they were in control of that situation.  Then you had few that never abided by that leadership and one way or another those had to run away and go and report, let us say, in Dar-es-Salaam.  Then, maybe, an extreme example is the killing of, as it was mentioned here, of the prominent leader where that group then decided that they will take action by sending six cadres as, I think the document clearly states it, but generally speaking, if there were situations of extremes maybe of ill-treating of cadres, in my candid remembrance or, I would say maybe one or two of the cadres it did happen, but I think that should be left as, also we have said, for later submission.  Thank you.

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: Mr Chairman, I was at the time the Chief Administrative Officer official.  I think to be straight and candid, it is true that there were no harsh, I think harsh is rather a harsh word to use, but in the context of the situation there was, there were forms of normal mediatory discipline like (indistinct) quotes.  It is accepted norms.  Of course, there were one or two beatings which became necessary.  Now, that will account, I think, when the list is given.  That will account for the minimal number of decisions which resulted into a supreme decision, because in the whole, the cadres were disciplined and I can categorically say there were no tortures.
 If there were problems they would come and report to the office and we would solve those things amicably, but they were treated as brothers on the whole.  I think if most of them would tell the truth, they would say on the whole we were treated as brothers, but discipline had to be maintained.

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: Well, to add on that, I will say what actually assisted was the, there was crisis in the organisation, but it was, the period you are referring to is that of the time we launched, what we use to refer to as Operation Curtain Raiser and Operation Home Going or Homecoming.  It really raised the morale of the cadres in that direction and we were one in terms of going home and we forced our way through Zambia and Botswana.  Of course, even the then Minister of Justice, Kruger, had to admit that Apla is reviving as far as Eastern Cape or Transkei, as they use to refer to it.  So, in that regard I want to show that it was not only crisis, but there were also breakthroughs during that.
 That helped in that direction and everybody was geared to be picked up or to be identified as a candidate to go home and we were working towards that objective.  Yes, of course, there was that thing that these leaders doing that and that that led to the death of Sibeko, but it was, there was also that element within the cadres that now we are going home at last and it must also be explained to the Commission that we had a very tough situation.  That in 1968 when some of our people based in Zambia wanted to go home, I am dealing with the morale now of the cadres so that you get the correct and complete picture.
 When the cadres of Azanian Peoples' Liberation Army launched operations and by that time Mozambique was still colonise, Zimbabwe was still colonised, so it was very difficult to go through that and, of course, our people went via Mozambique and some of them perished in Villa Peri and others, of course, were intercepted and arrested by Botswanas.  Basically, what I am trying to say is that it was very, very difficult, it shows how the cadres, even themselves, not only the leadership, but the cadres made efforts to go home and fight and in the final analysis, of course, with the benefit of the liberation of Zimbabwe and other areas we were able to increase, because of the proximity of that.
 I must say that the frustration was not only caused by the problems within the organisation, but some were imposed by the situation where Kaunda was basically threatened by Vorster that before God knows what happens, he will overrun Zambia in 1968.  That is why we were in Cosban from Zambia because of those operations of 1968 and that was a direct threat by John Balthazar Vorster that time.  So, I am trying to show as to the problems that affected the morale and we had to explain and train and educate the cadres to understand the totality of the struggle, that it was not easy.  
 Even in the 70s when a lot of the recruits came into join the liberation movement, it was easy to take them up, but very difficult to take them down and we had to wade our, wade through.  So, that that actually assisted in terms of the maintenance of the morale of the cadres and, of course, as we indicated somewhere that we, you did not even see the need to create or to establish the detention camps, because our emphasis, maybe now I am talking more as a political commissar than as commander, was that you will have to liberate the mind of many, you will have to enlighten the man so that he owns the struggle, he owns what he is doing so that it is not something imposed upon him.
 That enlightenment, that training was very vital and it minimised the discipline problems, because the next man will be in a position to say, hey, what you are doing is out of order, because of the inculcation or, what other people will prefer to call indoctrination, but, basically, it was the political education conducted on the cadres to know actually what they are fighting for and that they are not criminals and that they are not bandits, but the armed civilians to overthrow the illegitimate regime of the time.  So, basically, that was that.  I am trying to put it in context not to confine it to a particular incident somewhere where a person was punished by, for, by crawling or by jumping, by running, etcetera and so on.  
 So, I think that is that.  I do not know whether we satisfied your answer, thank you, your question.

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: I would like to get clarification from the question.  Maybe I may misunderstand it, because if I understand it, the question is trying to find out if there were any harsh measures that were taken to discipline people.  Is that how I understand it?

MR LAX: Yes, the question is based on accounts of some of your cadres who say that at that time things got harsh.  The situation was difficult, there was a mutiny, some people did not tow the line and they got dealt with quite severely and that is what some people have alleged happened.  I am asking and I have had a full answer which, basically, indicates, no, it did not really happen, there were one or two isolated incidents, but basically people towed the line, because they were, for want of a better phrase, well indoctrinated and had a good discipline.

MEMBER OF DELEGATION: I understand you well and if you were answered them I am happy.