Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-06-28

CHAIRPERSON: No, we're trying to get an estimated figure.  About how many people were there would you say?  I'm not asking you for an exact figure, about how many people?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, that's why I said there have been more than six but there were less than ten, I hope.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that's a better answer.  Now we've at least go an estimate of the people.

MS MTANGA: Mr Chikororo will give evidence that there were not less than 15 people who were present at the time he was tortured and who also participated in the torture, what do you say to this?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, I can't really deny, I cannot dispute that because you know, there is a proverb which says that the person who was physically tortured or affected cannot forget.

MS MTANGA: What he wants to know and what he is concerned about in your evidence is that you do not mention the names of the people who participated in the torture besides yourself, Nesamari, Mr Managa and Ramaligela, why is that?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, I haven't been asked to specify the other people in terms of names.  I think the question was around the figure.

MS MTANGA: Can you give us the names of the people who participated with you?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes, I can do that.

MS MTANGA: Go ahead and give us the names.

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Okay, I thought you wanted to ask.  I can remember Mr Masindi, Mr Morengeni, Mr Mabuda, Mr Thovhakale, maybe somebody will spell it nicely.  Thovhakale, John Managa.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can you just repeat that name, I didn't get it.

INTERPRETER: T-H-O-V-H-A-K-A-L-E.

MS MTANGA: Is Johan Managa the brother of Mr Managa, the applicant in this matter?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other names you can remember?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: And other people, well, I've forgotten were also there.

MS MTANGA: Was Mr Ramaligela amongst the people that tortured Mr Chikororo?  Can you remember if Mr Ramaligela and Mr Managa were present at the time and participated in the torture?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Are you specifically referring to Mr Chikororo or to other people?  I can't remember exactly regarding Mr Chikororo, it happened a long time ago.  I can only remember that a specific person was present when it took place.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember whether Mr Ramaligela and Mr Managa, the applicants at this hearing were present when Mr Chikororo was tortured?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, I can vaguely remember regarding Mr Chikororo.

CHAIRPERSON: You must say whether you can or can't remember.  Was Mr Managa, your co-applicant and was Mr Ramaligela present when Mr Chikororo was absent when Mr Chikororo was being tortured?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I can still remember that Mr Managa was present.

MS MTANGA: Did he participate in torturing Mr Chikororo?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes, he participated.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Has it not been your evidence that you were instructed specifically by Mr Ramaligela and Mr Managa in assaulting Mr Chikororo?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Could you repeat your question, please?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Has it not been your in your evidence-in-chief that you were specifically instructed by Ramaligela and Managa to assault Mr Chikororo?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, these instructions were given haphazardly, not specifically referring to a particular person at the time.  He too, Mr Ramaligela, instructed that these people should be assaulted.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was Mr Ramaligela present when you assaulted Mr Chikororo?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: That is why I'm saying, regarding Mr Ramaligela, during the time when Mr Chikororo was being assaulted, I cannot really connect whether Mr Managa was present.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I'm not asking about Mr Managa, I'm asking about Mr Ramaligela.

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, I can't remember so vividly as to whether he was in or not.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You can only remember the names that you've mentioned, Masindi, Morengeni, Mabuda and Thovhakale that they were present during Chikororo's assault but you can't remember whether the senior officers were present during Chikororo's assault?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, sometimes they might have been in their offices when we were busy with them.  The interrogation room wasn't really next to the office or really in the office, they had their own offices, then they will invite us for interrogation.  It might have happened that during the interrogation of a particular person one of the seniors could not have been in so one could not really reconnect what happened in the time, whether Mr Ramaligela was present during the assault of Mr Chikororo, that might have been so however, he may have gone to his office during the time when Mr Chikororo was being assaulted.

CHAIRPERSON: When the electric shock treatment was being applied to Mr Chikororo, was a senior member present?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Could you repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: When the electrical shock treatment was being applied to Mr Chikororo, was a senior member present?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I can remember that Mr Managa was present.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson.  In your evidence, you have stated that electrical shocks were only applied on the earlobes of Mr Chikororo, do you still maintain this testimony?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes.  Yes, it was on the earlobes.

MS MTANGA: I put it to you that Mr Chikororo will give evidence that you were involved and that you were one of the people who had tortured him and you were one of those people who had applied electrical shocks on his private parts, what do you say to this?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, I don't know about that.  I'm not aware.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you, or did you not, ...(indistinct).

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: No, I didn't do that.

MS MTANGA: Regarding the pulling of hair of Rev Phoshwana, you've heard in the evidence that hair was pulled from his private parts, that is his pubic hair.

CHAIRPERSON: And also from his head, I believe.

MS MTANGA: From his head, beard and his pubic hair.  Were you one of the people who pulled his hair or did you pull hair from Rev Phoshwana?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I can't remember all about the pulling of hair where ever they were.

MS MTANGA: Rev Phoshwana will give evidence that you personally pulled his hair from the head, the beard and also his pubic hair.  What do you say to this?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, maybe he will want to lie about me.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is it something that you can remember or something that you know you did not to do?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Could you repeat again, please?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is the pulling of Rev Phoswana's hair from his body, his pubic hair and also from his beard, something that you know did not do or something that you cannot remember having done?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I cannot remember that it took place.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But you do recall that you slapped him?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But you can't recall whether you actually did anything other than slapping him?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, I can't remember, I'm just saying I slapped him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But you can't recall doing anything other than slapping him, that's my question.

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I was merely slapping him with my bare hand.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you know that you only slapped him and did nothing other than slapping him?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, I'm saying that I don't know any other thing other than slapping.  I was merely using my bare hand.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, so it's not something that you can't remember, it's something that you know.  You know you did not do anything other than to slap him.