Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-20

MR PRETORIUS: So the only shots that you can recall as you're sitting there today that was fired on that day, after the marchers turned around De Villiers Street into King George Street were the shots of yourself and that of your colleagues?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Sorry can you just repeat your question?

MR PRETORIUS: As you are sitting there today, the only shots that you can recall having heard that day, after the marchers turned into King George Street from De Villiers Street, were the shots of yourself and that of your colleagues?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Well I think as I'm sitting here I think the shots that I heard I cannot, I'm not in a position to say whether they were the shots which were shot by myself and my colleagues because it was just, the situation was very fast and I could not make out as to where this shots are coming from, the marchers or they're coming from our colleagues.

MR PRETORIUS: In any event there's no shots that you can refer this committee now there after the marchers had turned around De Villiers Street into King George Street that were fired, or that you perceived were being fired by the marchers.  Is that correct?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Sorry can you just clarify your question?  I can't hear you correctly.

MR PRETORIUS: A bit slower because I've got problems of ... (intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you happy with questions being put to you in English.  You only want him to lower his pace?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I'll do my best Ma'am of the committee.  Mr Mangena after the marchers turned into King George Street from De Villiers Street, there are no shots that you perceived were specifically fired by the marchers before or during the shooting that took place thereafter?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I cannot confirm that because the situation, as I said, was very fast and there was a lot of confusion there but as to the marchers they shot or what but I cannot confirm it, whether they shot or they didn't shoot.

MR PRETORIUS: Why did you start shooting, that is the shots in the air?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Well to - the first three shots that I shot in the air it was an attempt to halt the marchers maybe to turn back so that I can turn back.

MR PRETORIUS: It is not because you heard any shots?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Sorry?

MR PRETORIUS: You didn't start firing because you heard any shots?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: From where?

MR PRETORIUS: From for instance the marchers.

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: As I'm saying that there was general shooting and then I don't know whether the shot that I heard it was from the marchers or it was from my colleagues.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Mangena may I refer you to page 3329 of the inquest record.  Just indicate to me when you have got it Mr Mangena please.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got it?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Please proceed.

MR PRETORIUS: I will read from the third last line or fourth last line:  "What was you decision?", "No when my life it is in danger, it is only then (indistinct)", then "Alright, these first gunshots that you heard is that what you are saying, that you started shooting because your life was in danger?", "Sorry?".  "Are you saying that you started shooting because you concluded that your life was in danger?", "Yes".  "The first gunshots that you heard, which direction did they come from?", "Which direction were they coming from?", "Yes", "They were coming from the direction of De Villiers Street".  "How many gunshots did you hear?", "I am not sure, I do not recall, I do not remember how many gunshots I heard".  Now that was when you were standing immediately before you start firing, that appears from the previous page where we started reading.  Do you agree with that Mr Mangena?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes I agree with that.

MR PRETORIUS: When you testified there you wanted to indicate that when the shots were coming from the direction of De Villiers Street that it was coming from the marchers.  Is that correct Mr Mangena?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: What are you say?

MR PRETORIUS: When you testified, during this passage which we've just read, you wished to indicate that the shots, gunshots, were coming from the marchers, the gunshots that were coming from De Villiers Street as you said.  Is that correct?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I think when I was testifying there some other questions which I had to answer, I was not given a fair, in terms of expressing myself or in terms of explaining the other situation.

JUDGE NGCOBO: What is the answer to the question that he has put to you?

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Mangena just press the button please.

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I think the answer to your question that is just put to me is that I think I might have forgotten about this other aspect of it because I don't think maybe I can be in a position to recall each and everything that happened that day.

MR LAX: He's asking you whether when you referred to De Villiers Street in your answer here in this transcript, you were referring to the marchers?  That's the question you're being asked to answer.

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I was referring to the marchers.

MR PRETORIUS: During your evidence at the inquest court therefore you testified that you concluded that your life was in danger, that is immediately before you fired shots, because shots were ringing out from the marchers.  Is that correct?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: Today you couldn't remember that shots.  Is there any reason therefore?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: There's no reason but the only thing I might have forgotten this other part of it.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Which part is that, which is the part that you're ... (intervention)

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: The part of the shots that were coming from De Villiers Street.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Pretorius I don't know whether you are through on this issue.  Do you now want to move to another issue?

MR PRETORIUS: I'm practically going to move now to another issue ma'am.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Before you do that may I just interpose and probably ask Mr Mangena, Mr Mangena do you have your application before you?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you turn to page 128, which is page 4 of your application, typed number 4?

MR LAX: Page 128, it's page 4 of your Affidavit  that was handed in at the inquest.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you see paragraph 17.  Do you still stand by what is contained in that paragraph?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Sorry can I just go through this paragraph?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can I assist you to go through that paragraph?  The people that you are referring to as having shot as they were moving in King George Street, who are these people?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: These are marchers.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And were these shots being fired in your direction whilst the marchers were moving into King George Street?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And whilst you were at the corner of King George and Plein Street?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I was at the corner - at that time when the time they were just coming through King George, that time I was at the corner of Plein and King George, I mean at the second pair of pillars between Plein and King George, meaning that it was distance from the corner of King George and De Villiers Street.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.  I hope Mr Pretorius that will probably assist you.

MR PRETORIUS: Indeed, thank you Ma'am of the committee.  Mr Mangena just lastly, I take it that your legal advisers have explained to you that - let me just clarify.  What you refer to there in paragraph 17:  the shots were fired at the ANC security personnel.  Which security personnel were you referring to?

SISI KHAMPEPE: The same paragraph that I have referred you to.

MR PRETORIUS: The second last sentence reads:  "These shots were fired in the direction of Shell House and the ANC security personnel".  Do you see that?