Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-12

MR BOOYENS: I've been told by my colleague just to go slower, apparently I'm speaking too fast Mr Chairman.  Can we just - I beg your pardon Mr Chairman.
	On the top of page ...[indistinct] opposite the entry number 625, inter alias the following appears:
"18 prisoners in cells with no complaints"
Do you see that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, I see that.

MR BOOYENS: Now the figures still tally, is that correct?  17, one is added, that makes it 18 from the previous page, do you agree?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: Then entry number 630
"Release of Kondile"
The entry that we've dealt with already.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And the very next entry below that - it still tallies because now there are
"17 units in cells"
Do you see that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: That illustrates the point that you so kindly explained to us earlier on that in fact your occurrence book must reflect what is going on with the movement of prisoners as well, is that right?  If people go out there must be less prisoners in the cells and so on, is that right?  Do you understand what I'm asking?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I understand what you're saying.

MR BOOYENS: And do you agree with me?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: On your version however, the entry that Mr Kondile is released on the 10th of August 1981, is a false entry because you dealt with him after this for at least a further two months, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I was not a uniformed policeman, I did not write entry books.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, we've covered ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Booyens, accept we're still on Monday the 10th or what's the date at the top?  So it may be that we've got an entry on Tuesday the 11th ...[inaudible]  It may be that we could have an entry that he's been returned to the cells.

MR BOOYENS: No, I'm not - that's why we asked for the book Mr Chairman.  I've got to put my clients version ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I think you ...[indistinct] your client's version on a different footing rather than based on the entries in cells.

MR BOOYENS: No, what I'm actually dealing with Mr Chairman, is that the entry in the cell register say that the man was released, that's the important one.  Not just removed from the cells, released - "vry gelaat", and that's the important one.
	Now, on your version he was never released that's correct, in any case not at this stage.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Let me make it easy for you.  We were cooking for ourselves and we would give Sizwe some food and then he would go back to his cell and we'd lock him in there.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, I know you said he was kept in the cells.  The point is, can you explain the logic on your version that the man went back to the cells and was apparently detained in the cells - of entry 630.

GINOTRY DANSTER: I want to get away from this entry that we're going around in.  It is very common within the security police, the attorney's here like Mr Nyoka know that.  They would look for people and they would not find him.  The attorney's of the prisoner would be looking for their own prisoner and they would not find him.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that the question of not finding prisoners is a separate issue.  It records here, although this is not counter-signed by anybody, there's just an entry which says that Mr Kondile was released at 10 o'clock on that day.  Now, do you think that that is a genuine entry, do you that that is not a genuine entry?

GINOTRY DANSTER: According to my logic, this is a false entry.  They have written here that he was released and meanwhile he was still in the cell.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, you see what I don't understand and that's seeing that you are dealing with your logic, but for what purpose he was obviously detained in the cells for at least a further two months, can you think of any purpose why this entry would be made here because he was physically in the cells according to your evidence?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I think it is your client that would answer that question for you.

MR BOOYENS: Very well, let's leave that.  You see, what I want to put to you is that the reason why this entry was made was to create the impression that the man was released whereas in fact he was taken away to Komatiepoort, that's why this entry was made, it was to get him off the books.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr Booyens, ...[intervention]

GINOTRY DANSTER: I can't answer that.

CHAIRPERSON: It wasn't purely getting him off the book, it was getting him out of this life.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, yes, no that was ultimately the - but he was in the books, he had to be removed from the books and the purpose - he was never released, I'm not saying that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he can't answer why this is there, he doesn't accept the genuineness of this.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So I think you can move on.

MR BOOYENS: For how long until Mr Kondile was ultimately - went missing and went to Komatiepoort or when you were told he was going to Komatiepoort, did the torture sessions go on?

GINOTRY DANSTER: As I already said, it was quite a while, a long while.

MR BOOYENS: Well, we have established that on your evidence he would have gone - allegedly gone to Komatiepoort, round about the middle of October.  If we work back from that, how long before going to Komatiepoort did the torture session stop?

GINOTRY DANSTER: A few days.

INTERPRETER: Mr Booyens, could you move back from the mike please?

MR BOOYENS: Certainly.
	A few days.  So he was tortured at least till about the 15th of October?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Ja.

MR BOOYENS: This doctor that kept on visiting the man, did he visit him in the cells or that visited this man, did he visit him in the cells?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He would come to the cells.

MR BOOYENS: And apart from the doctor that visited him, did the Magistrate of Inspector of Detainees visit him?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I do not know.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Danster, these interrogation sessions of Mr Kondile, it seems to me the brunt of the interrogation was carried by you and Mr Raath, is that correct? - you did most of the questioning.

GINOTRY DANSTER: I have named the people that I was with.

MR BOOYENS: Well, did they - I know you've named the - just answer the question.  The majority of the questioning, was that done by you and Mr Raath or was it done by somebody else, what is the position?

GINOTRY DANSTER: It was Raath and myself who were with him most of the time, however when we were interrogating him it would be all of us.

MR BOOYENS: And obviously you and Raath also had to sleep at night, not so?  You couldn't stay awake all the time, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: I know there were occasions when you say Mr Kondile was kept awake but here must have been many occasions when after the day he would be placed in the cell and he would stay there for the evening and you and Raath would go about your business, is that right?  You wouldn't be busy with him, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: No, we were booked in Jeffrey's Bay, we had to go through the information we were given.  We would look at the details if he had given us the correct answers then we'd fetch him again.

MR BOOYENS: All I'm suggesting to you is, even you and Raath enthusiastic policemen as you might have been, didn't work 24 hours a day, you also slept?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We would have time to sleep.

MR BOOYENS: And no human being could be kept awake for 12 weeks non stop, not even Mr Kondile and he wasn't kept awake, he was give occasion to sleep, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I did not say he was kept awake for 12 weeks.

MR BOOYENS: No, I'm just putting it to you ...[intervention]

GINOTRY DANSTER: I did not say that he did not sleep for 12 weeks.

MR BOOYENS: You and Raath then obviously there were times when Kondile was in the cells and the two of you were sleeping, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Correct.