Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: At that stage I did not say that any instructions had been given, that is what I am trying to say to you Mr Chairperson.  At that stage I  said shine through that the war was at hand, if I am correct, according to my statement.
	I never mentioned that there was any instruction afterwards.   The instruction that came was that we should be ready on a 24 hour basis, but never for any other instruction.

MR DREYER: That is the point of departure, am I correct?
This was the departure point of this chain of instruction, this chain of information that was given to the men below that things were getting to a point now, am I correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MR DREYER: And this was followed later by a summit ...

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No, excuse me.  You are missing the point completely.  The summit and the time of the Assembly Hotel is far apart from each other.  The summit was held first.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kloppers are you sure the meeting at the Assembly Hotel was the point of departure?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes, it shone through from that point, it started earlier actually but the intensity increased after the meeting at the Assembly Hotel.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I just wish to tell you you need to be cautious when you say it is the point of departure there because Mr Dreyer put it to you that it was the beginning point, but I don't think it was your version that that was actually the point of departure.
	That couldn't have been the point of departure.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No, long before the time we already started with the beginning of this.

MR DREYER: From there, if I understand you correctly, there was an escalation of the inciting remarks that happened at meetings and so forth, is that correct?  Did it increase in frequency and intensity from there onwards?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: As you have seen on the video it was total incitement.

MR DREYER: To be truthful in your own version you have told us that the meeting was so inciteful in 1993 that when one person leaves there, that he would probably murder your own family?  Would you then agree with me that it would cost very little to give someone a false interpretation into an instruction that he believed that he received, because he was so incited that there would in fact be mass hysteria?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I would just like to put it to you that Mr Japie Oelofse was not someone to give speeches.  I attended some of his meetings and I listened to what he said and the instruction that he gave to me, he was not a speaker of the same calibre as Eugene Terreblanche.

MR DREYER: That is not what I put to you.  I was referring to your own testimony.  You say the meetings was so inciteful that when you leave there, you would kill your own house family, your own family.  According to your own version, this inciteful attitude that was there amongst the supporters of the AWB at that stage then, it would take very little to convey a faulty interpretation of something that you would believe was an instruction, it is that easy?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No, it is not that easy, you don't understand it correctly.  I am trying to tell you you would have acted as such if you were in Eugene Terreblanche's meeting, but if you were in Oelofse's meeting, you had to be very careful.

MR DREYER: But despite that fact, you testify here it was an open meeting on the 12th of December and in general simple things are first reported, such as year end financial statements, fund raising, is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MR DREYER: But apart from that, according to you this is not the core of the meeting, this was not what the meeting was about although there were these patrolling guards and the people at the gate, it looks like a normal annual general meeting?  Is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No, that is not correct.  According to the group that attended there and the guards that were there, this was not a general meeting or a year end meeting as is normally held.

MR DREYER: But at your own version you said that this was what was discussed there.  This is what was started with and towards the end, something else was added.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I did not say that at any instance.

MR DREYER: I put it to you if that was the last meeting for the year, this would have been the last occasion where the structuring and the functioning of the AWB, could have been attended to, is that correct, until the next year?

MS VAN DER WALT: I object, he never said that was the year end meeting, he also did not say that it was a general meeting.  He said general aspects were discussed and then he continued to say what happened there.

MR DREYER: Mr Chairperson, I will formulate it in another manner.  Just tell me Mr Kloppers, except for this meeting on the 12th of December, do you have knowledge of any other meetings of this nature for the rest of that year, because I wish to put it to you that was indeed the year end meeting?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: There were other meetings that I attended personally, but not with the top structure that was present there at that meeting on that day.

MR DREYER: Would you then accept that that was the year end meeting of the top structure?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No.

MR DREYER: Then I ask you, this is a meeting and there was good security there ...

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Excuse me, it was not an open meeting.  I do not know if you know the name of the Order Group.

MR DREYER: There was good security there and it is told to you in general that this is, you used the words, the real McCoy.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Could you just repeat that.

MR DREYER: You say at this meeting after the financial statements and so forth was concluded, you say at this meeting it was said that this was the real McCoy, now is the time, is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MR DREYER: Is this in the open meeting or was this afterwards according to your version when you were called in by Oelofse?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: This was in the open meeting.  The same words were not used there, the words were used 12 December 1993 when Chris van der Heever stood up and asked that the date should be extended because his men were at Skanskop in Pretoria and they were waiting for the 16th of December.
	This was when Willem Rutter also took up position in Skanskop, he asked for an extension.  Gen Oelofse then said nothing is to be extended, remove your men from Skanskop, now was the time for the revolution to start.

MR DREYER: These men, did they leave Skanskop?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes, they did.

MR DREYER: What I don't understand is that this is an open meeting and you say all the earlier Commanders were there.

MS VAN DER WALT: I object, it was never said that it was an open meeting, it was testified that it was an Order Meeting.

MR DREYER: As it pleases the Court.  Mr Chairperson	 would then ask the question in this manner.  You said it was an Order Group meeting.
	When I use the word open meeting, I just want to distinguish between the two phases in the meeting, in the fist stage when the meeting is a general meeting, and that was what I was referring to and the other part, when persons were called in individually.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Chairperson, it wasn't a meeting of the second phase, it was an Order.  While the meeting was addressed and or the members were addressed in their entirety, it was said that now was the time that the revolution would begin on the 12th of December.

MR DREYER: That is absolutely correct.  And you said that an extension was requested because of the deployment of certain people?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MR DREYER: And you said that those people were withdrawn?