Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

MR SIBANYONI: You are applying for amnesty for attempted murder, was this teacher injured in any way?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: No, he was never injured.

MR SIBANYONI: Which means the bullet never struck him?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.  It was not directed to him.

MR SIBANYONI: Where did you direct it?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: I was just shooting, I shot at the side, it was not directed to him.  I had a lot of bullets.  My firearm was fully loaded.

MR SIBANYONI: Are you saying you deliberately shot away from him?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: I can say so.  I was just shooting because we were not so sure that those were the people that we were pursuing, that is why we decided to shoot because by seeing them running away, we would confirm that those were the people that we were after.

MR SIBANYONI: Maybe I should phrase my question this way, what did you intend to achieve by firing the shot at that stage?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: We wanted to capture these people, we wanted to take them with.
	We would decide whether to capture them  or just to shoot them.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We were informed that you were applying for amnesty in respect of one count of attempted murder and one count each of unlawful possession of firearm and ammunition.  Is that correct?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The attempted murder, is that in respect of this teacher?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, it is one case.

CHAIRPERSON: Why I am asking you is because there were two incidents of shooting, and I want to establish from you what the position is.  What do you want amnesty for?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: It is the one that has got something to do with the teacher.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know this person before that day, this teacher?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: How far from him were you when you shot at him?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: The distance would be from that double door, the one that I am facing right now, to where I am sitting approximately.

CHAIRPERSON: Our estimate is about 30 to 40 metres?

MRS NHLAYISI: I agree, it is about 30 meters.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't recognise or you didn't know either of the people that you saw from that distance?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: I couldn't be able to identify him, because there was another group of people and we were not talking to them, standing direct next to us.  We were just waiting for them to do something and we would run away.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you talk to them at that distance?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: What people?  The people from the group or this other two gentlemen?

CHAIRPERSON: These two gentlemen.  Forget about the other group now, you are not making application in respect of that other group.  Let's talk about the two teachers.
	Did you make an attempt before you shot at them, to talk to them, shout to them or whatever?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: What I did to them, was I ordered them to stop, but they refused.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that from the distance that you pointed out that you ordered them to stop?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they still at the school gate or what is the position?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: They were inside the school premises.

CHAIRPERSON: When they never responded to your order, you shot at them?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: While they were in the school premises now, is the school's premises fenced off?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: The fence was partly damaged, people would walk through the school premises, people from Katlehong to Tokoza would just go through because the fence was partly damaged.

CHAIRPERSON: When you told them to stop, were they walking in your direction?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, they were facing our direction.

CHAIRPERSON: You knew that they were not armed with any weapon that could injure you from that distance, not so?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Who?  Are you referring to the twosome?

CHAIRPERSON: Those two gentlemen.  Yes, we are talking about those two teachers only, you know that.

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: I am not certain whether they were armed or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Exactly, but you could not see any arms that they may have been carrying that could injure you over that distance, not so?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Will you please repeat your question sir?

CHAIRPERSON: You couldn't be injured from that distance, because you never saw any firearms there with them, not so?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Even if they were armed, but as a person who had his firearm, as I was the person who had his firearm in his hand, I would shoot first.

CHAIRPERSON: You see what is troubling me in your application is that we don't exactly know why you shot at them.  Are you able to help us so that we can make a proper decision?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: You want to know about the reason why I shot at these people, will you please clarify your question sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Why did you shoot at them?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: I explained before that I thought that these people were coming from that other group, the people that we were after.  That is why I shot at them.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was it necessary to shoot?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: I wanted to show them that I had a firearm, because I knew that if I shoot first, they wouldn't get a chance to shoot, because my pistol was in my hand.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motshwene, I want to be absolutely fair to you.  I am going to ask you a question which I want you to deal with because it concerns us.  Basically the Act in terms of which you applied for amnesty, requires two aspects to be complied with.
	The first one and I am going to give the lesser one for your purposes, is to make a full disclosure of what occurred there and what was decided and whose orders were complied with, etc.  I haven't got too much to worry about on that score.
	The second aspect which is required to be complied with, is that your actions must have been based on a political motive such that it was in the furtherance of the organisation or the objectives of the organisation on behalf of whom you acted, do you understand that?

JOSEPH BONGI NKOSI MOTSHWENE: Yes, I understand, but I would request you to repeat the first question.

CHAIRPERSON: The aspect that is concerning us, is the political motive aspect.  I am going to put the question to you because you tell me now that you understand that requirement.
	Was there a political motive for you to act in the way you described your acts and if so, what was the political motive?