Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-10

CHAIRPERSON: The statement, the unsigned affidavit at pages 8, 9 and 10, it is put to you that that statement, that affidavit represents a statement which was taken from you by Ms Nichols, I think it was, is that right, yes, Ms Nichols, what do you say to that, do you know that or do you don't?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot say I know it, the lady came to take the statement, I have forgotten the name, yes, I cannot dispute it, but yes, it was taken.

CHAIRPERSON: ... is a statement that you made to her?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And you see, I will just explain it to you a little further Mr Nosenga, that statement was typed up in June of 1996, right June, then when Mongezi came to you in September, about three months after that, he had this statement with him which he never asked you to sign, you are quite right on that.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR BERGER: He put the two statements together so that you could apply for amnesty for both Boipatong and Sebokeng?  What I want to tell you is the one is the statement and the other is the form for amnesty, your Attorney will show you what I am talking about.  That is the form, that is the statement and they were put together in September of 1996 and submitted as your application for amnesty to the TRC in Cape Town.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot dispute that.

MR BERGER: Let me ask you this Mr Nosenga, when Mongezi left you for the last time, what did you understand that he had done for you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I understood that he was assisting me to submit my amnesty application to the TRC.

MR BERGER: Amnesty for what?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Because I killed people at Sebokeng as well as Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Okay.  Then I want to move Mr Nosenga,  I want to move from 1996 to last year, 1998.  In 1996 you were at Leeukop?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And where were you in 1998?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was at Stofberg.

MR BERGER: At Groenpunt prison?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is the one.

MR BERGER: Here in the Vaal?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, here at the Vaal or in the Vaal.

MR BERGER: When you were at Stofberg, did you know what had happened to your amnesty applications?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't want to tell a lie.

MR BERGER: When was the first time that you realised that the Boipatong amnesty applications were under way?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: If I remember very well, Mr Brian came to visit me in the company of Mr Berger saying that they had been sent by Mongezi to inform me that the application is in process.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga, I want you to think very carefully now.  You were sitting at Groenpunt prison, Stofberg?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And something happened which made, which informed you that people were giving evidence in relation to the massacre?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.  I am saying Mr Brian informed me, I am saying Mr Brian informed me that my amnesty application is in progress.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you saying?  Mr Brian came to you in prison?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, he came to me in Stofberg to inform me that the application is in progress, that is what I can remember.  They told me that they had been sent by Mongezi.

CHAIRPERSON: Who accompanied Mr Brian?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Before that Mr Nosenga, before you even saw Mr Brian and Mr Berger, you were at Stofberg?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Did you see something which informed you that something was happening?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't want to tell a lie, I cannot recall.  I cannot recall what happened?

MR BERGER: I want to remind you about your evidence last week, about seeing something on the television, on the news.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I was in Stofberg.

MR BERGER: All right, now what did you see on the news on television?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I heard Victor Mthembu testifying to the effect that a snake gives birth to another snake and that these snakes must be killed.

MR BERGER: And you realised that he was giving evidence about what?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: About the Boipatong massacre.

MR BERGER: And how did that make you feel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying there were Police when Boipatong was attacked, and I was involved.   They were not mentioning the Police.

MR BERGER: Let me rephrase my question.  You are sitting at Stofberg and you are watching television and you see on the news that Victor Mthembu is testifying in his application for amnesty in relation to the Boipatong massacre, am I right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you know that you have applied for amnesty for the Boipatong massacre, am I right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR BERGER: But you are not there where it is happening, Victor Mthembu is there, but you are not there, am I right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR BERGER: So what did you do Mr Nosenga?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: After Victor Mthembu had rendered his testimony and when the TRC was sitting here at Iscor Club, I came here but - after Victor Mthembu had rendered his testimony, I cannot remember whether it was on a Tuesday or Wednesday, I came here but I did not come to this venue.  I think I spent most of my time outside.  I think I was outside in a Police kombi, that is where I spent the whole day.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga, it was at this Iscor Club where you spent a day in the Police van, am I right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: But Victor Mthembu didn't give evidence here, you see, he gave evidence at the Sebokeng College of Education, it was on a previous occasion.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I am saying he did not render his testimony here at Iscor Club, but at Sebokeng, I was not present there, I only saw that on television.

MR BERGER: Right.   Now, what I am asking you is you see that the amnesty hearings are taking place without you, did you wonder to yourself why am I not there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I wondered.

MR BERGER: And what did you do as a result of that wondering, that is what I am asking you, did you speak to someone, did you call someone?  What did you do to get yourself before this Committee?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I phoned and I enquired because the Committee of the TRC was meeting at Boipatong and yet I was not part of the proceedings.

MR BERGER: Who did you phone Mr Nosenga?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I phoned Patience if I still remember correctly.

MR BERGER: Patience worked with Mongezi at the ANC Truth Desk?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: You were trying to get hold of Mongezi, were you not, to find out why you were not before the Committee?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: But Mongezi wasn't working there any more, was he?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I was told that he had been transferred, I think he had been sent to Cape Town.

MR BERGER: And who had taken over from Mongezi, Mr Nosenga?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying it was Brian whom I was made to believe had taken Mongezi's position.

MR BERGER: You are quite right, it was Brian Mr Nosenga.  What did you tell Brian over the telephone?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I found Mongezi, he actually phoned me back and informed me that he was going to send Brian and Brian came.

MR BERGER: But what did you tell Brian over the telephone when you spoke to him?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I told him I had submitted an application for amnesty pertaining to the Boipatong massacre because I was now concerned, the person who was handling this matter was Mongezi and now I was getting worried, it was somebody else.