Special Hearings — Faith Community Hearings — 1997-11-17

UNKNOWN: Yes, accepting what has been said already, that you are keeping   an open door policy, but realising the times, moral decay and whatnot. Isn't   it time that the church can open up and begin to dialogue with other churches   without necessarily waiting for other churches to come to it? I mean already   there are structures, there are ecumenical structures that are in existence   and once the church can enter or work together with those ecumenical structures,   then we can begin to spread these that are the tenants of your church.

EMMANUEL MOTOLLA: As I have said, the Zion Christian Church is open to any   suggestion. We interact with many religious leaders. We share ideas with many   political leaders. We share ideas with economists, but we believe that we have   got a specific missionary work to preserve what we guard closely as what belongs   to us as Africans.
We've got no problem in meeting any person to help in bringing down the level   of moral decay that is permeating our society. We've got no problem with that   at all. Any organisation, be it political, be it economic, be it - you'd be   surprised Mr Manthata that you know we even have a group of ...[inaudible] coming   from KwaManthata in Pietersburg. They come to our church, we welcome them, they   dance there and we appreciatethey are not members of any church, they   are not members of our church. We are glad to work with anybody for the betterment   of our people and we have always said that.
REV.

REV XUNDU: Thank you, your Grace. There is one area in your presentation   which I would like you to amplify. Indeed it was a powerful presentation and   I want to congratulate you on that, but the area which I'm concerned about is   the area of the reinstatement of the death sentence. We are dealing as the commission   with amnesty. That is perpetrators which have killed, and yet we talk about   amnesty. We are dealing with the ...[inaudible] it was said of old, "an   eye for an eye" but I say forgive. Give the opportunity for repentance.   It seems to me that we might want to learn from what you are saying and find   out how you handle this in this kind of context in which the bible itself speaks   strongly Thou shalt not kill. Because you reinstate the death sentence, somebody   is going to be the killer. Somebody is going to switch the button and kill and   so you are saying there must be official killings and non-official killings.
I would like to understand you properly when you say that.

EMMANUEL MOTOLLA: Indeed the question of the death sentence is a hot potato   debate that troubles the conscience of all people in our country today. Without   even going deep into the word of scripture, the constitution itself, the Constitutional   Court which is the supreme interpreter of our law, has outlawed it. The reality   here, Mr Chairperson, the church feels that he who lives by the sword shall   perish by the sword. The church feels that he who disregards human values and   rights of other people can hardly claim that reserve as his own for purposes   of elongating his existence on earth. 
The church feels that strange as it sounds, the death sentence is a necessary   evil. However, in its way of doing things, the church has never climbed on any   political platform and said reinstate the death sentence. No, no, no the church   doesn't do that. The church has communicated its concern to our political leaders   and all people who have visited or invited us to one discussion or another.   We appreciate the death sentence was a tool that was abused mercilessly in the   past. And as a result, many African people have got sad memories about the death   sentence. In fact when you say death sentence to any African you bring very,   very terrible memories. But if we have to build and protect our democracy, there   is now way, Mr Chairperson, we can continue to witness women raped, children   abused, people killed with almost amazing insolence, with no feelings of warmth   at all. We cannot, Mr Chairperson, and members of the commission, allow the   situation that exists in this country right now. You have people who just simply   kill people for the fun of killing people. Not that killing people has in any   way ever had any justification. You still have judges, even today in this country,   who would comment that these people should not be sent to jail because they   killed this person in a humane manner. They shot him once, they didn't assault   him. Now if you look at the type of attitude we have in this country today,   maybe we can look at scrapping the death sentence ten years down the line. Not   now. It is a necessary evil. And I appreciate the theological and scriptural   wisdom you enfused into your question, but I regrettably have to say we still   feel it is a necessary evil. Thanks.
REV.

KHOZA MGOJO: Thank you Sir. I am very much impressed by this presentation   which is full of theological ...[indistinct], like black empowerment etc. But   I find something very lacking in this presentation, vis a vis, the presentations   of other churches. We have been in South Africa and there are many sins of omissions   which were committed. I don't see when I'm reading this thesis, anywhere, where   this church says that we think we are sorry because there are certain things   we should have done to help the situation in South Africa during the times which   were very painful to everybody. The painful journey that you feel that you could   have helped the situation and somewhere you have mentioned that most members   of the church were left free to participate in the broader community in resistance   programmes against apartheid. 
I would have liked to have heard about what programmes were those which your   church was involved in, in fighting against apartheid.

EMMANUEL MOTOLLA: Thanks Mr Chairperson, thanks Reverend Mgojo. 
Chairperson, as a church, the Zion Christian Church did not lead people into   a mode of resistance against apartheid. But as a church the ZCC taught its people   to love themselves more than ever, to stand upright and face the future, to   defy the laws of apartheid. And that all these teachings are not known in the   press, in the general public at large can hardly be the problem of the Zion   Christian Church. The ZCC taught its people continuously to follow the path   of justice, to fight against injustice. Many of our members died in the struggle.   We are not going to stand on this platform now and start name dropping because   it was a painful experience in our lives. Some of our members are even in the   present leading structures of this government, indeed no less than President   Mandela acknowledged it when he delivered a speech to our Easter Conference   some two or three years ago. We have not, as a church, stood up and said let's   go and fight the white government, and for that omission, if it was an omission,   because we thought genuinely we needed to teach our people to be able to stand   upright, not to hurt others, but to refuse to be hurt by others. And that is   why, Mr Chairperson, of all the perpetrators that appeared before this commission,   you will realise that you have never seen one who is a member of our church,   because if those members of the police force who were in our church, we made   them a aware that if they were enforcing unjust laws, finally the law of God   will reckon with them. And if by non-participation, it is meant that Bishop   Lekganyane did not go and stand up in the street and say, let us fight, let   us go to way, then as far as that is concerned, if that is the omission you   are referring to, we plead guilty, Chairperson.
But we taught our people, all these people who are members of this church,   listen to his Grace's sermons regularly and they are taught nothing less than   rejecting that which is evil and unjust.