Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-20

MR HUGO: Yes, and just look at page 1821 of the same record, and I'll read it to you once again.  It's one again Mr Samuel, he puts it to Mr du Preez, the following version, he says
" And he will say also that the reason why Ms Kubheka was specifically asked to be brought to Mr Botha and yourselves, was that Ms Kubheka had informed him that there was a handler or a Commander of two men and Ms Kubheka had handed off to Mr Mbane to find safe-houses for, and she wanted to see them and she was becoming suspicious."
So this is the second time that this was put to a different witness, that she was only becoming suspicious about two men.  Did you hear him doing this, putting it to the witness?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It might happen that I heard him putting that question.

MR HUGO: But if your version is correct, you must have realised immediately that he was making a mistake, isn't that so?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: As I have already said, I did not have enough time to consult with my lawyer, we would only see each other here.

MR HUGO: Yes, but I mean here he was making the mistake time and time again and after the first mistake you could have said to him, "Listen here, this is a mistake, please see to it that it is corrected", isn't that so?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I didn't think it that way.

MR HUGO: You see, Mr Mbane, isn't the reason really that you in fact did tell your lawyer that it was only the two comrades that she was worried about and that he put it correctly?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, that is not so, three people were handed over to us.

MR HUGO: And that the third person that you mentioned yesterday was never killed, because Mr Radebe never killed the third person, as you testified to?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: As the person who was present I am saying that he was killed.

MR HUGO: Yes, I'm not - we'll argue that particular point later, but I'm not going to go into that save but to say that obviously Mr Radebe denies that he committed this particular murder, but that doesn't form part and parcel of his amnesty application.
	I want to get back to the substance of your instructions from your seniors, by whom were you given the instruction to approach Ms Kubheka?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Are you referring to the first day, the first time?

MR HUGO: Sorry I should have confined this question to the period after she had become suspicious.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It was Mr Botha.

MR LAX: Sorry, just repeat the question so it's clear, I'm now a little bit puzzled as to what you're asking.

MR HUGO: Sorry, Mr Chairman, maybe I was a bit unclear on this.
	After Ms Kubheka had become suspicious you were given certain instructions, is that not so?  Is that not so?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is so.

MR HUGO: Now by whom were these instructions given to you?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It was Botha.

MR HUGO: Yes, and what did he tell you, what were you to do?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: He told us to go and fetch her and take her to Battery Beach.  They then showed us the spot where we should stop there and the signal that I had to make when we got there.

MR HUGO: Yes, now I want you to give us a more detailed version as to what exactly happened.  When you got this instruction, did you then contact Ms Kubheka?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR HUGO: How did you contact her?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Using the telephone.

MR HUGO: Did you phone her at her home or did you have a different contact number where you could leave a message for her?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't know whether the number I had was the home number, but it is where I used to call her and find her.

MR HUGO: Yes and then you spoke to her on the phone, what did you tell her?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I told her that we had to meet and I was unable to go to the house, so it would be better if we would meet somewhere, and then she said that she would take a taxi or a train, I'm not sure, and then we'd meet in the station.

MR HUGO: Yes, but did you indicate to her as to why you had to meet her?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I just told her that it was dangerous for us to go in and out of her place, so it would be better if she met us somewhere, and she came.

MR LAX: The question was, did you give her a reason for the meeting?  In other words, what was it that you wanted to meet her about?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: We would not discuss that over the telephone.

MR HUGO: Did you in any event tell her that you would arrive at the station in a motor vehicle?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, I think I told her, if I can still remember well.

MR HUGO: And you said to her that you would be driving a Corolla?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't think I mentioned the type of a car, but I said that I would be driving a car.

MR HUGO: And I might be mistaken when I made the notes yesterday, was there a conversation about the fact as to what she would be wearing that particular day?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I cannot remember, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I can recall a note to that effect as well, Mr Hugo, that there was some mention of what she would be wearing.

MR HUGO: That's my recollection, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: But sitting here I can recall that.

MR HUGO: Yes.  Now if the Chairman is correct and I'm also correct, what was the arrangement, was she supposed to tell you what she was wearing, or would be wearing that particular day?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I think she told me.

MR HUGO: Yes.  What did she tell you?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: A floral dress and a jersey.  I can't remember clearly.

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman, I see it's quarter past eleven already, may this be an ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll take the tea adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: (s.u.o.)

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, if I could just intervene at this stage, with a little bit of information that might assist.  The family have advised me two things today, we've managed to trace the passport of the deceased's mother in this matter and this Ms Maria Kubheka, and she was in Zambia and she returned on the 10th of May 1997, and we are confident that the deceased in this matter went missing  after that date, sometime soon after that date.  So we're pretty ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So it was definitely not before that?

MR WILLS: Ja, definitely not before that date.  And just for the record, it might become useful, this person is now deceased but her height as given by the passport, is 1,63 metres.
	The second bit of information that I have is from the sister of Mr Sbu Phewa, who also disappeared in this matter ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you could just mention that name again.

MR WILLS: The sister of Mr Sbu Phewa, it's Ms Phewa ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Oh is that the sister of Sbu?

MR WILLS: Yes.  Now she has confirmed that Mr Phewa disappeared on the 19th of May 1987, and the reason she recalls this is because he had a child on the following day and he disappeared the day prior to the birth of that child.

CHAIRPERSON: That's the sort of date that one would imagine would be recollected.

MR WILLS: Be remembered, yes.  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  So that would also then indicate that Ms Kubheka, on the evidence that we've heard, taking the sequence that has been outlined, at least by Mr Mbane and also Mr Radebe, that she died after Sbu, well after Sbu disappeared, sorry.  After Sbu disappeared.  So it would seem that it was maybe even after the 19th of May that that occurred.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Hugo?