Human Rights Violation Hearings — Ladybrand — 1997-06-24

PROF MAGWAZA: No, okay.

WITNESS:   Okay, sure.  I am trying to be as brief as possible.

PROF MAGWAZA: Okay.

WITNESS:   In fact a lot of things, you know, took place.  So what happened is that, well, I spoke to Comrade Madizela, who was the chief rep then, and I was surprised.  I mean his, you know, response was a very negative one - if you get the point - and he was not co-operative at all.  Eventually I - and I indicated - you know, I intimated this to my comrades that I was staying, that - because there were some also who wanted to go to school, who were a little bit - you know.  I can't say everybody was dissatisfied.  We were not necessarily dissatisfied about what was going on in the movement, but I was a little bit, you know, dissatisfied about how certain people handled certain things, if you get the point.  Not necessarily about the organisation, because I really loved the organisation.  I was very much dedicated to it.  So when Comrade Madizela reacted in the manner in which he did then I indicated to the Congress that I was staying, and I can prove everything that I am saying here.  I said, "You know, if he does this to me I will sort this thing my - you know, my own way," if you get the point.  "I am going to follow the channels, but if he doesn't want to then I will see how I do this thing, but definitely I am going to go to school."  Then he had his attitude, and then he eventually said to one of the comrades who was helping, you know, people with scholarships and bursaries, that he should not help me.  And I was very much disappointed because he said that after we had had a meeting with them in his office, and then he said, "You must never help those comrades.  You know, those comrades will simply have to leave Zimbabwe," and all that, if you get the point.  I said to the comrades in point - I think it was Comrade Solly.  We used to call him Solly.  I am sorry to mention people's names without consulting them, but anyway the people that I have mentioned some of them really never did anything whatever wrong, or, you know, negative against me.  You know, the comrades was genuinely trying to help me at that point in time.  And Comrade Madizela said whatever said, then I said to the comrade that, "Okay, I realise that you tried to help me out, but anyway thanks for that."  And then after that I went to various organisations which used to help refugees at that time for scholarship, and some of them of course were willing to help me, but the indication was that, I mean, they don't help individuals.  It's either you are an individual refugee, in which case they can assist you as an individual, or if you belong to an organisation then they help you through the organisation, you see.  And one of the organisations that I went to was the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, and they also told me the same thing anyway, because at that time I indicated to them that I only wanted help, but I didn't want to leave the organisation, I only wanted a scholarship.  So what happened is that the UN said it could only help me if I could bring some sort of a letter from the office indicating that I was a member of the ANC, if you get the point, because I didn't have an identification card of my own.  I was identified through the organisation.  So I went back again to the chief rep's office requiring for - or requesting a, "To whom it may concern," just a letter, you know, acknowledging that I was, you know, a South African refugee.  And unfortunately I could not get that help.  Eventually then I said no.  Then the UN said to me they could register me as whatever.  They could give me an ID, but before they could do that I would have to go to, you know, to the government to get an identity whatever recognition.  I went to the Zimbabwe Government, and unfortunately the applications at that point in time were, you know, processed by the Central Intelligence Organisation, that is the Security Branch of the organisation - I mean the country.  I went there and the ANC was consulted.  Comrade Mhlope came.  He was called.  He came to the Security Branch of the Zimbabwean Government.  He asked me what I was doing.  I explained to him, and the reasons why I was there.  And then he said, "Okay, Comrade, we can go back to the office, then we'll be able to discuss this maybe in a more whatever amicable way."  I said, "It's fine."  Then I was prepared to abandon, you know, the process that I had already started.  So I went back to the residence where I used to stay.  Comrade Mhlope never showed up that evening.  I think two days or so passed.  After that I went back to the Government, telling them that I was proceeding with my application.  After some time to my surprise the ... (intervention)

PROF MAGWAZA: Was it the Zimbabwean Government?

WITNESS:   The Zimbabwean Government Security, ja, sure, because that's where you had to apply - I mean that's where you had to go if you wanted like an application for residence status, you get the point.  And I also indicated to the Government of Zimbabwe together - you know, and also at the UNHCR office, that I only wanted an identification, you know, an independent identification as a refugee.  I didn't want to leave the organisation, I wanted to still remain a member of the ANC.  Unfortunately when I was there the movement sent a security guy, if you get the point, to come and fetch me.  So I resisted.  I am not going to mention them now by names, but if I am called upon to do that then I can always mention them.  Anyway.  And then the guys came.  Instead I was surprised.  They wanted to remove me by force from there.  Then I resisted, and unfortunately that caused a lot of, you know, commotion outside the, you know, the offices outside the - you know, outside the Zimbabwean or whatever security offices in Harare.  As a result of that I mean many people came.  It attracted whatever - the commotion that took place attracted a lot of people, and then the police - I mean the Security Police of the Zimbabwe Government, you know, put me into the car and they drove me to the police station.  They decided to whatever - to whatever - to lock me up.  I stayed in the cells I think for about two days, after which then I indicated to them that I am not going back to the ANC, now I am resigning.  I told them straight that, "Now I am resigning," I don't want to have anything with the organisation at that point in time.  Then I was taken to the refugee camp in Zimbabwe, where I stayed, and then after some time I was called upon to - I mean to a hearing for an application for refugee status.  So in that hearing one of the things that I indicated, because I was asked about my safety in Zimbabwe, they wanted to know - in fact they indicated to me that how would they be able to make sure that I was safe in Zimbabwe because they had no control over the security of the movement.  Then I indicated to them that I doubt that the Zimbabwean Government can say that it had no control over the security of the movement because it was a government.  And I also indicated that I suspected that there were some people even in the Security Police of the Zimbabwean Government who were, you know, conniving with our security guys because of the braveness that they had, you know, when they went to fetch me from their offices.  So I think some of the things which I said there made certain people feel unhappy, and as a result of that they decided to send me to Lusaka, without the knowledge of the UN unfortunately.  So when I got to Lusaka ... (intervention)

PROF MAGWAZA: Excuse me, Mr Mpafane.

WITNESS:   Okay.

PROF MAGWAZA: It's a long story.  If you could highlight ... (inaudible)