Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Did that mean that sources were inactive, agents 
did not report any more?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You have already mentioned that Mr Mgoduka 
worked with you.  Did the others work with you from time to time 
as well?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: In the situation on the ground, it could have 
been that the black members working with you and would they have 
known who were your sources?   Would the black members know 
how the sources worked, which methods you were using?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is like that.

ADV BOOYENS: If a source had to be arranged, a meeting at a 
safe house, you were well-known?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: You were well-known in Port Elizabeth?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Could you for example go and fetch this source 
of did you use the black members for that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I used the black members to go and fetch these 
sources.  Amongst others Mgoduka and Faku and Mapipa.

ADV BOOYENS: And were they with you when these sources were 
debriefed?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Did they hear at certain instances which 
instructions were given to the sources and the agents, for example if 
a specific person or organisation was targeted, would they have 
known?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: You also used other sources, people who were 
murdered, but according to you do they still have family in Port 
Elizabeth and therefore you would not like to disclose who they 
were because according to you it would, the families' lives endanger 
or they would be ostracised by the community?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, for sure.

ADV BOOYENS: You mentioned earlier, and we are on page 23 of 
the false flag method.  What does that mean?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: This is a method whereby the person who was 
recruited, that he as I have already mentioned that I am using an 
associate to execute this covert operation.

ADV BOOYENS: This was the person who for example said he 
worked for the CIA?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: So you became more and more suspicious that 
this leak in the intelligence network could have come from 
Mgoduka's side?  The initial suspicion was on him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: But at that initial stage, you only had a suspicion 
and nothing more?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: As it became clear, also based on what your 
colleagues had said, was counter espionage also part of this 
intelligence network?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, it was.  At that stage I handled the 
counter espionage component.

ADV BOOYENS: Counter espionage means to find spies working 
for the other side.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: On page 324, on paragraph 14, round about 
August 1989, this idea of the leakage and your suspicions were 
discussed with Brigadier Gilbert.  He told you that you had to 
investigate this matter to determine whether this leakage was coming 
from the inside.  Whether there was a mole situation.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: At that stage, because it had become clear that 
certain parts of your covert operations had been disclosed, and that 
you had to spend money to find other premises.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Paragraph 16 I want you to discuss this in detail. 
 You said security measures were tightened, information was 
handled on a need to know basis, that was all to prevent that the 
moles could obtain more information?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You tried to determine whether there was 
surveillance instruments in your safety premises and also 
surveillance was instituted in your own premises?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And you mentioned the WH11 method, that was 
monitoring telephone calls?  That worked with a sound recorder 
which was activated by voice.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You also said that other monitoring apparatus 
was also installed at Louis le Grange square and also in the tea room 
of that building?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You had a suspicion at that stage regarding Mr 
Mgoduka, is that right?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Then you refer to the post which was intercepted 
according to the WH10 method.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Our technical division fetched the post early in 
the morning, they had a person in the post office who sorted the 
post, and they had a list of well-known addresses which we have 
provided them with.
	Addresses overseas and internally.  There were certain 
addresses in Lesotho.  Amongst others the Roma Church in Lesotho, 
in London a Mr John Smith and in Anreith in Canada and in Eastern 
Germany.

ADV BOOYENS: Did that work as follows, that all post which was 
posted here to all the post posted in the Port Elizabeth environment 
and I also think in other big cities, would be taken to the central 
post office to sort them.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You had an agent working there and all the post 
to a specific address as you have referred to, be intercepted and be 
put in a post bag for the Security Police?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And this post you opened, you steamed it open 
and read it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: On the other hand, would the same method be 
used with incoming post?  That all post in this specific case, 
addressed to Mgoduka, that his post would be intercepted?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And it was then brought under your attention 
that Mr Mgoduka was receiving post from overseas?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: The letters were innocent, it seemed.  ... (tape 
ends)  In this process you mention the Roma Church and an address 
in Canada and in Eastern Germany.  These addresses, what was the 
meaning of these?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Those were contact addresses for the ANC 
overseas, from where they would obtain their post.

ADV BOOYENS: In other words, post would go from here to the 
Roma Church?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And all post going to the Roma Church, was 
suspicious?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You say Mgoduka worked with you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Some of the post which was intercepted on its 
way to these addresses, and you came to the conclusion that he 
could have been involved in that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: How did you draw this inference?  He did not 
sign his own name or used his own address, he did not do that.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: He did not do that.  From the samples of his 
handwriting and some typed letters from specific typewriters, some 
were handwritten and the handwritten letters, I could recognise his 
handwriting because he used to write my reports.

ADV BOOYENS: You were already suspicious regarding the typed 
letters?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: He made use of his own typewriter which he 
had in his office.

ADV BOOYENS: Was that a mechanical type typewriter?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: So he usually typed on the typewriter and from 
the intercepted letters, you came to the conclusion that it was done 
on that same typewriter?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: On the basis of what?