Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-08

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Alright.  From - okay, even before we get there, what I want to know is, what was the need for you to interrogate them?  I mean they had been picked up, you say you were sure that they looked like the people you saw during the course of the day walking up and down, singing songs, what was the need, can you perhaps explain?  What was the need for you to interrogate them any further, why didn't you just simply execute them?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: The reason to interrogate them was that during the morning I had a strong suspicion that they were members of SOSCO because they were singing intimidating songs, intimidating and belittling our organisation but at the time I did not have facts that they were members of SOSCO.
	Now with the interrogation I was trying to confirm my suspicions and the information clearly came out during the interrogation that they were members of SOSCO and one other point, some of them had T-shirts of Release Mandela Campaign and the UDF T-shirts.  Two of the SOSCO members in the room where I was, one had a UDF T-shirt and the other one an RMC T-shirt.

MR TLOUBATLA: If these boys had told you that they were not members of UDF or SOSCO or so on, what would you have done after having assaulted them?

CHAIRPERSON: Well sorry, maybe they did.  Didn't they tell you at some stage that they were not members of UDF or SOSCO?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: At the beginning of the interrogation they said they were not members but as the interrogation went along they confirmed that they were members of SOSCO.

CHAIRPERSON: Now we can get to the next stage of Mr Tloubatla's question.  When they told you that they were not members of UDF or SOSCO, what did you do?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I think our enemy was clear and it was a general knowledge that the UDF was fighting with AZAPO.  Now the fight was between the members of the UDF and the members of AZAPO.  We were not only fighting ordinary members of the community, we were fighting members of UDF as AZAPO.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether the interpretation could be inaccurate but I thought I asked you: "When they told you that they were not members of UDF or SOSCO, what was your reaction, what did you do"?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: When the interrogation began and they told us they were not members of SOSCO, we did not agree with them because at that time we had already seen that some of them had T-shirts aligned to the UDF which was an organisation we were fighting.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, I didn't ask you whether you agreed with them, I asked you - and this is for the third time, I asked you: "What did you do, if anything"?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: We harshly interrogated them and we assaulted them.

CHAIRPERSON: Why, why did you assault them?  I mean they tell you: "We are not members of the UDF or SOSCO, why do you assault them"

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: The reason for us to assault them was because they were not telling us the truth, it was clear that they were lying because during those days you did not just wear an AZAPO T-shirt if you were not a member of AZAPO, you would not put on a UDF T-shirt if you were not a member of the UDF.

ADV BOSMAN: Were you not more concerned with the issue of whether they were members of SOSCO?  It seemed as though you were more interested in identifying them as SOSCO member, is that not so?  That is what I gathered.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: We were more concerned with whether they were members of the UDF which was aligned to SOSCO.

ADV BOSMAN: Then why did you assault the people who were wearing UDF T-shirts?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: The motivation for the interrogation was that in the morning these boys sang intimidating songs and they belittled our organisation.  Now they were found in Orlando in the vicinity of some of our comrades and they released the information that they were going to reconnoitre the houses of some of our comrades so that they can be attacks that evening.
	In the interrogation they mentioned that the reason for going to Orlando was to reconnoitre the area to identify houses so that in the evening they can be attacked.  Parents were being killed, they were being harassed because their children belonged to AZAPO.

ADV BOSMAN: I don't really follow you now Mr Mphoreng, exactly why did you assault them?  First I got the impression, and I may be wrong, but I got the impression you were assaulting them because they were SOSCO members, you wanted the to acknowledge that they were SOSCO members, then you indicated no, you wanted them to acknowledge that they were UDF members and I asked you then: "You knew they were UDF members, some of them, because they were wearing the T-shirts, why did you assault them", now I get the impression you were assaulting them because you wanted to know about their indication that they were reconnoitring to identify house to attack.  Could you just clarify this, I don't follow.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: One of the reasons to interrogate them, we wanted to know exactly who gave them orders to burn our homes and to kill our leaders, we were not just assaulting them.  That the members of the UDF was not the only reason for the interrogation, we also wanted to know who issued out orders, who sent them to kill our members of burn homes of members of our organisation.

ADV SIGODI: Did you ask them if they were responsible for burning Jeff's house?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Yes, we asked them.

ADV SIGODI: And what was the response?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: The information that we got from Oscar is that he was present when Jeff's house was petrol-bombed.

MR MALAN: Mr Mphoreng, Advocate Bosman put the three answers to you which you gave at various stages, you say one of the reason that you gave for the interrogation and the assaults was that they released information on the reconnaissance in the area to those comrades of yours that brought them in, is that correct?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Now, if they were already have given to your comrades bringing them in, the information that they were doing these reconnaissance trips, why would they have to be assaulted in order to admit that are of UDF?  Why would they deny the UDF or the SOSCO ties if they before that already admitted to reconnoitring for the purposes of bringing attacks to the homes of comrades?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: According to us, that information was insufficient, we wanted to know exactly who sent them, who sent them to attack members of AZAPO, to burn down homes of AZAPO members.

MR MALAN: Let me try this again.  You say they voluntarily gave the information that they were on these reconnaissance trips but at the same time they had to be assaulted and beaten in order to admit that they were of the UDF, that they were affiliated to UDF?

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman, I wonder whether I should not object to that.

MR MALAN: I'm trying to find out if you could help me, if I understand it incorrectly then please help Mr Tloubatla.

MR TLOUBATLA: I don't think the word voluntarily was used, I don't know whether it makes any difference.

MR MALAN: No, sorry, let me withdraw the word voluntarily indeed ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: It makes a lot of difference.