Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-22

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I refer you to Exhibit A, page 6, the second paragraph.
	I am going to read the whole paragraph to you, it is the loose page Mr Gushu.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 6?

MS VAN DER WALT: Page 6 of Exhibit A, he still does not have it.  Page 6, the second paragraph.  As a Mayor he recruited the Makusi trainees to come and harass whoever was not a member of the IFP.
	They were killing members of the ANC, COSATU, SACP and Civic Organisations allying to the ANC in large numbers.  Example, you must listen carefully, comrade Stulu Hlaza was killed on the instructions of Mr Msibi and the police did nothing.
	The same applied to Joshua Tebete and Andries Kumedi.  The liberation movements could not operate in Piet Retief and I was instructed to monitor Msibi and those who were very close to him and to kill them if the need arises.
	I went there and established Self Defence Units and trained them in self defence.
	Do you understand, it doesn't really matter what Mr Black says.  Once again it appears exactly as in Volume 1, and it says that Mr Hlaza was killed after which you went to Piet Retief in order to establish Self Defence Units.
	And you continue with the next one ...

CHAIRPERSON: Then I am slightly confused.  Then the issue should be that Hlaza was not alive to give that order, is that correct?
	If I understand your question correctly, an attempt was made to kill Mr Msibi almost as a consequence of what he had done in relation to Mr Hlaza's death?

MS VAN DER WALT: That is how it appears here, yes.
	Then I would like to say to you further, if one looks at Exhibit A as well as Volume 1, page 37, nowhere in any paragraph is there an indication by you that Hlaza was with you when you went to shoot Mr Msibi, once again it is further proof that you coloured your amnesty application so that you could be granted amnesty.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: There is no such, I did not colour in anything.  I wrote or said what I know.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gushu, when you went to shoot Mr Msibi like you say, was Mr Hlaza alive or dead?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, Mr Chairperson, he was still alive.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why when you were with two different Attorneys and you made the second statement which is contained within Volume 1 and is much more expansive than Exhibit A, why didn't you tell the truth and say that Mr Hlaza was with me when I went to shoot Mr Msibi?
	You didn't say anything about that.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It must have been a mistake made by the Attorney, but all the time in my statement I mentioned that I was with Hlaza, because that is the truth, I was with Hlaza.

MS VAN DER WALT: Two Attorneys make the same mistake?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you surprised Madam?

MS VAN DER WALT: I will continue.  I would like to point it out to you even further and this is still in relation to your evidence yesterday and if it was led like that consistently, it was placed before the Committee on page 37 and 36, without your amendment, because you have amended it with your oral evidence.
	I will continue, paragraph 16, page 37.  You say, and this appears in the middle of the page, Mlangeni tried to run away, I shot him, he died immediately.  Once again in attempting to shoot Msibi and I left him for dead.
	Listen carefully sir.  I went into the bottle store business to see if there were any arms.  Is that a fault which the Attorney made?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, it is a mistake because I tried to say yesterday we got there and the shop was being closed.  Msibi would say that as well.  We got there and the shop was being closed.
	I shot Msibi whilst his car door was opened.  I discovered as I was arrested that it was Themba Mlangeni who was closing the shop.  If you are going to say I went inside the shop, which moment would I have gone inside, because I was shooting and I was outside?

CHAIRPERSON: Why does it state in your statement then that you went in?  It is a statement that you signed, it is a statement that was gone through with you, with your representative I assume, why then didn't you correct it then?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Mr Chairperson, it is only now that I see this mistake.  When we were inside there with my Attorney to look at the statement closely.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you signed it?  You must remember we had a big sing song about the signature and we adjourned in order for you to sign it.  We took long enough for you to acquaint yourself with the contents and then sign it.
	Are you going to tell me now that you did not acquaint yourself with the contents of this and nonetheless signed it?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Mr Chairperson, yesterday I signed in a hurry.  I could not read each and every detail in the time that I was given.

CHAIRPERSON: So this statement wasn't - you didn't go through the statement with your representative before you signed it?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: No, not yesterday.  I did not read this, but as this was written by me, and it is typed, I am not well educated, there would perhaps be mistakes in the statement that I had written and given to my Attorneys so that they sort it out for me.
	This is why I did not see this mistake timeously.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gushu, don't misunderstand me.  I am not going to hold anything against you for the mistakes that you make or that you have made.
	All I want to know and you have answered the question, all I wanted to know is whether this statement was properly examined with you before you were asked to sign it, and you have already told us no.
	Don't feel guilty about it, I appreciate your position in respect of it.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairperson, I would just like to take this further.  You are trying to hide behind the fact that you can't read English very precisely or understand it very precisely, however, yesterday after the statement was signed and you were asked by the Chairperson, whether or not you understood it, you were so self assured, that it actually came up to me and I made a note of it, you said that what appears here is correct because I wrote it myself.
	This morning, this was my first question to you, because I knew that you would come back and once again you confirmed that what appeared here, is correct.  Do you remember that?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I remember that.

MS VAN DER WALT: Then I would like to take this further.  As you would like to present Mr Kumedi and Hlaza and Tebete, in the same way in order to qualify for amnesty, you said in this paragraph that you entered the bottle store because you were looking for weapons.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I did say that I shot Msibi, as I shot Msibi I also shot Mlangeni.  He was closing the store, I would not have a chance to go into the store because after you shoot, the police are sure going to appear.  It would have been difficult to shoot and then still go inside and search the store.
	Yes, I was meant to look for weapons had I got the chance, but in those circumstances it would have been difficult.

MS VAN DER WALT: You see sir, this aspect of paragraph 14, page 37, and your oral evidence would never have been amended if Exhibit A had not come to light yesterday, because then you had problems, because then you saw on page 6, the last paragraph, of Exhibit A appears the incident which you have described.  It is the very last line, I went for Msibi again, I shot him and when I thought he was dead, I took the till money and fled.
	You see, there you picked up problems because you didn't go into the liquor store?

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mrs Van der Walt, you will have to help me if my memory is failing me.  Did he not only get Exhibit A this morning?  How could that have happened?

MS VAN DER WALT: He said that was appears in that is correct, and if anything was incorrect that he would point it out to me.  That is what I asked him.