Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-10

MR BERGER: And it goes on to say
"... the second incident was in Sebokeng, Zone 12 where we shot at people who were waiting for busses and taxi's (drive-by shooting) ...",
	what you told us last week is that the second incident was first, and the first incident, was second?  In other words it was first Sebokeng and then Everton, is that right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct, we started in Zone 12 to Zone 13, we shot people and we proceeded towards Sharpeville where we also shot at a taxi.  We proceeded to Jomo's Place in Everton.

CHAIRPERSON: When it says here the first incident was in a shack, this was not the first incident, the first incident was the one that occurred in Zone 12 in Sebokeng?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The first one happened in Zone 12 Sebokeng.

MR BERGER: Yes.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The second one happened just as you leave Zone 12, we came across a taxi that we shot, and we went to Jomo's Place, a shebeen in a shack area.  That is in Everton.

MR BERGER: Okay, so there is talk here about two incidents, but the order is wrong, am I right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is possible.

MR LAX: No, it is not a question of being possible Mr Nosenga, you are being asked a direct question about is the order wrong of these two incidents, it is not a matter of whether it is possible, it is either yes or it is no.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, from Sebokeng right through to Small Farm and then Everton.  That is the sequence.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga, that is why I have asked you please just try for a little bit longer to concentrate.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I understand.

MR BERGER: And both of these incidents from Sebokeng to Small Farms to Everton, they all happened on the same day?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR BERGER: On the 15th of June 1992?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And then you see there is another sentence here which I will read to you, it says
"... details of other incidents attached herewith."
	Now, it is there, you can believe me that it is there.  Remember I asked you what was in the annexure and you said you didn't know?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I said I don't know.

MR BERGER: Okay, but what I want to ask you is this, you have spoken about the incident in Everton, I beg your pardon, you have spoken about the incident in Sebokeng, Zone 12, you have spoken about Small Farms and Everton.

MR LOWIES: I have to object against the Small Farms incident, it was not discussed, or he didn't say that as it is put.  Small Farms was not ...

MR BERGER: He did.

MR LAX: He just spoke about it now Mr Lowies, two seconds ago.

MR LOWIES: Sorry Chair, the way I had it is as follows, let me just clarify my objection.  My objection is he did not state Small Farms in his application form, and it is suggested to him that it was, and that is the nature of the objection.

MR BERGER: Well, let me ask you Mr Nosenga, what happened at Small Farms?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: People were shot in a taxi that was pulling a trailer, I am also serving a sentence for that offence.

MR BERGER: And in Everton?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: People were shot at a shebeen.

MR BERGER: And in Sebokeng it was taxi's again?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, at Sebokeng people were shot at a taxi rank, where they were waiting for taxi's.

MR BERGER: Now in this sentence it says  ...

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just get this straight, at Small Farms, is it Small Farms, you say people were shot at?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, they were travelling in a taxi.

CHAIRPERSON: They were in a taxi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And a caravan?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying this taxi was pulling a trailer.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, now at Everton?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I shot people at a shebeen, called Jomo's Place.

CHAIRPERSON: And then at Sebokeng?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is where we shot people who were standing at a taxi rank, waiting for taxi's.  It is a place between Zone 12 and Zone 13.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR BERGER: So Mr Nosenga, in this last sentence on page 3, paragraph 9(a)(iv), it says
"... details of other incidents attached herewith."
	Now, do you know what these other incidents were?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I only know of the incidents for which I am service a sentence, including the Boipatong incident.

MR BERGER: Yes, you see ...

CHAIRPERSON: What is the answer?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I only know of the incidents to which I have referred, not some of the incidents included here.

CHAIRPERSON: You only know those that are mentioned here?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I only know of the incidents pertaining to Sebokeng at a taxi rank, and Small Farms, the shebeen incident, and now you are asking me about additional incidents that are written here, I am saying I don't know anything about that.  Except for the Boipatong incident, I don't know of any other incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: You see Mr Nosenga, what you have just said is what I was going to put to you, that the other incidents include the Boipatong massacre, am I right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct, I know about that incident.  I also submitted an application for amnesty pertaining to that incident.

MR BERGER: Yes, and then at the bottom of page 3, paragraph 10(a) it says "state the political objective sought to be achieved" and you say
"... we were instructed by a Mr Zulu who was the Head of IFP at Madala hostel, Vanderbijlpark, to destroy ANC comrades.  He armed us with AK47's and pump guns."

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Are you referring to the Sebokeng or the Boipatong incident?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I think this refers to Sebokeng, isn't it?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct, he did instruct and he commanded that we should go out, but we did not get the firearms from him, instead Darkie Chonco is the one who gave us the firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: He also gave you pump guns?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I can still remember the AK and small guns.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I cannot say much about pump guns, because I don't know it.

CHAIRPERSON: It says here
"... he armed us with AK47's and pump guns."

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I cannot talk about the pump gun.

MR BERGER: And then it says
"... details attached herein."
	In other words what that means is that there is an annexure to this application.  I will leave that then.  You see, remember I asked you about the document which was annexed to your application form, which you said you don't know what was annexed?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: What I want to tell  you is that the document at pages 8, 9 and 10, which is the statement which was taken from you by Caroline Nichols and Mongezi Tshongweni during their visit, that statement is at 8, 9 and 10 and that is the annexure which is referred to at page 2, 3 and 4 of your amnesty application.  Do you understand what I am saying Mr Nosenga, or do you want me to repeat it?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Would you please repeat the question.

MR BERGER: What I am saying to you is the following, I am saying when Caroline and Mongezi saw you at Leeukop, Caroline took a statement.  This is the statement, 8, 9 and 10, this is the statement.  When Mongezi came afterwards in September, to help you with your application for amnesty, this statement at 8, 9 and 10, was annexed to your application form so that when you applied for amnesty, your application was for both Sebokeng and for Boipatong.  You are nodding in agreement, what do you want to say?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What is like that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I applied for amnesty pertaining to Sebokeng as well as Boipatong.