Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-14

CASE NO: CT/00438

<UNKNOWN>: SHOT &

TESTIMONY BY: RICHARD CAROLLISEN [brother]
 SANDRA MESSIAS [girlfriend]

WENDY ORR: [indistinct] then I will ask both of you to take the oath, Mr Carollisen would you stand first.
RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN Duly sworn states
SANDRA MESSIAS Duly sworn states

WENDY ORR: I'll now hand you over to Adv Denzil Potgieter who will facilitate your evidence.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much Wendy, good morning Mr Carollisen.

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: Good morning

ADV POTGIETER: And you to Ms Messias - is it Messeas or Messias.

MS MESSIAS: It's Messias.

ADV POTGIETER: Good morning Miss, welcome.  We are going to start with you Mr  Carollisen and as soon as you've finished we will proceed with Ms Messias.  Your case goes back to 1976, twenty years ago and it deals with an shooting incident where your late brother Ronald Charles Carollisen was shot dead by the police, is the correct?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: Yes, that's right.

ADV POTGIETER: Would you like to tell us what happened on this particular day, perhaps you would give us the specific date as well on which it happened.

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: It was on the 8th of September 1976, on that day - as in the days prior to that - there was unrest in the aria Cloetesville where we lived in Stellenbosch.  
At that stage approximately a week prior to that we have moved to a new home and as a result of that the house we had occupied previously was unoccupied and we used to keep a watchful eye on that house.  And as usual my brother and I would go and check on the old house and walk up to our new house because we used to have supper at 6 o'clock and no later.  
On this particular day, as I said there was a lot of unrest in the area - periodic unrest in the area -  and I remember a specific incident that day - I'm merely mentioning it because it influenced my line of thought.  And I remember a policemen in camouflage who kept hitting a 4-to-5-year-old  with shambocks so much so that she wet herself.  And just before that another man in the community, Mr Kammies, was shot dead by the Riot Police.  
Seron, as we knew him, had come from work that evening and I waited for him at our old house and we walked up together.  The police shot and I said to him Ron we better get away from here because these people aren't playing.  He wasn't aware of what had happened that day and I had advised him that should get out of the line of fire and we moved towards a block of flats.  
I went into the first block of flats and he went into the next block.  And misfortune would have it, he made the wrong choice and he went into the direction of the policemen.  Accordingly I couldn't see the - according to eye witnesses, because I didn't see it myself, a certain Fuad Arnold - I saw him standing on the steps, so he had a much better view of what happened.  
He said Ron was in the bathroom, they shouted for him to come out whereupon he responded yes sir I'm coming out and he put his hands up in the air.  And while his hands were in the air, according to the eye witness, a certain Constable van Zyl shot him at close range with a shotgun.  And the impacted was great that his heart, longs and liver were penetrated by the bullets.
When I came to the bathroom - this is the bathroom next door, when I came out of the bathroom next door - they were dragging him out like an animal.  And another policeman in camouflage shouted to me - quite a few of the other policemen were congratulating him oh that was an excellent shot and congratulations.  
For me it's extremely difficult to relive these events but to a certain extent one lives with feeling of guilt.  You say to yourself that if I had made the right choice, you know, then this wouldn't have happened.  And you constantly doubt your own judgment.  And you live in doubt thinking shouldn't I have gone the other way instead.  It's very difficult to judge yourself with hand sight because the matter was heard at the court in Stellenbosch.
The Magistrate's verdict then was that it was a very difficult situation and that no one is to blame - that the policemen acted in accordance with his duty and hence no one was to blame for the incident.        
For us it was a very difficult time because my father - he and my father - were breadwinners at home at that stage and just before his shooting my father was declared terminally ill due to cancer.   My father also passed away not to long thereafter and I was a student at that stage and it was probably a difficult time for all of us in South Africa and one doesn't want to sort of eventuate your own situation but it just wasn't easy. I has to sacrifice my bursary money to educate my younger brother.  
The most difficult part is probably that we were a big family and when my mother set the table in the evening she would sub-continuously prepare Ron's place at the table and when somebody said to her but Ron is not with us any longer she would shed these silent tears.
And we always teased her very gently because we were always very fair in our community and Ron was also - always as dark as my father and we always teased her very lightheartedly about her favoring Ron, because he looked like my father.
And she did not live much longer thereafter and she also passed away and fortunately I was working at the time and could take care of my younger brothers and sisters, but I don't think that my mother could handle the constant harassment and detention of my younger brothers and I don't know if it's due to a feeling of guild but we were always terrorized by the safety - the security police and they would come to our house at any part of the night and lock up any one of us at random.
And in that regard we got a lot of support from the Reverent, Dr Allen Boesak, and the community at large and they kept us going and we were privileged in that the incident drew us closer together as a family.  But suppose the vacuum will always be there and I'll always ask myself did I make the right chose, shouldn't we have waited a bit longer instead, and so on.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much, Mr Carollisen that you - for having told us this apparently painful story.  Could I just ask - put a few questions to you just for the sake of clarity on the situation.  Your brother was working at that stage, is that right?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: Where was he working?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: He was a carpenter by trade, he was actually in his finale year of apprenticeship as a carpenter, so he was going to take employment in Cape Town.

ADV POTGIETER: So on that day he was from work and he was on his way home, from work when the shooting incident took place?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: How old was he when the incident took place in 1976?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: He was 23 years old.

ADV POTGIETER: 23 years old and were there any - apart from yourself you had two more brothers.  Are you then four brothers all together?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: As I said we were a large family.  There was one older brother who was married already and then there were two younger brothers at home and a sister.

ADV POTGIETER: So was Ron the oldest child who was still at home?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: And you say that at the time he was - he was the breadwinner in the family?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: Yes, mainly because as I said my father had been declared terminally ill and he could not work anymore.  And my mother had a heart problem and hence it was very difficult.  Ron - I owe a lot of thank to Ron because he made it possible for me to study to a certain extent.

ADV POTGIETER: What do you do today?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: I am a teacher, that is my profession.

ADV POTGIETER: And what about the other children, are they also more or less on - in a good way?