Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You see, that was not the question and perhaps, I don't know whether there is something wrong, there is some misunderstanding between you and the interpreter.  Because that was definitely not the question.  The question was to tell us exactly step by step what happened on that day and I became troubled when I noticed that your answer has nothing to do with the question.

UNKNOWN: David was a member of the vigilante.  They used to give us problems in the location, burning down houses and 2	they/...
25	MR FALTEIN
they even burnt down our property and my parents  they were burnt in the legs.  They burnt quite a lot of houses that  belonged to comrades.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You are Xhosa-speaking Mr (indistinct)
aren't you?  And the witness is also Xhosa-speaking.  I don't know Xhosa, I can't be so sure myself.   Are you satisfied with the interpretation?

UNKNOWN: I believe I am satisfied with the interpretation.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I just wanted to clear this  for the purpose  of record because sometimes we get some puzzling answers to certain questions.  So if you are satisfied that there is nothing wrong with the questions,  the interpretation is all right then at least we know that the witness would have understood the question.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you give me the date on which your parents' house was burnt down?

UNKNOWN: My parents' house was burned on the 3rd December 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: And this incident about the shooting of the deceased, when did that take place?

UNKNOWN: On the 24th December 1990.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Faltein, perhaps it will help to tell us exactly what happened on that day, I'll do it by means of questions.  On the day of the ....(intervention).

UNKNOWN: From the day after the death of the deceased, you want to know as to what happened?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ... what are you answering now?  I said I am going to assist you by means of questions,  for us to know exactly what happened, because this is important for full disclosure purposes.  Do you understand?  Now, on the day
2	when/...
25	MR FALTEIN
when the deceased died, what did you do yourself physically  on him?

UNKNOWN: I did nothing to the deceased, but I was present, and I did nothing to him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Where was he killed,  in his parents' premises or somewhere away in the street?

UNKNOWN: It was in the street.  It was not at his  place.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How did he reach the street?

UNKNOWN: He had come out of 685 chasing us and when he -Themba Johnson Ncube shot him in the street after having come out rushing out of 685 chasing us.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What caused or what made him to give chase on you?  What provoked him?

UNKNOWN: I don't know what the reason is for him to chase us.  He was just harassing us  with the police.   It was just part of the harassment for him to chase us.  We had to be killed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ... people go past, he saw people who were to be killed and he gave chase.

UNKNOWN: When he went out of the yard he chased us and  then we ran away.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ...  being shot by your friend Ncube, what did you do?

UNKNOWN: When he fell down we ran away and there was already many police on the scene.  We just ran off.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was this murder committed under anybody's instruction?

UNKNOWN: No, we never got any instruction to commit  the murder.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was David ever discussed at any given meeting
2	before/...
26	MR FALTEIN
before his death that he has to be killed?

UNKNOWN: No, he was never discussed in any meeting.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was he ever discussed at any of your meetings, be it a Youth League meeting or a defence unit meeting as a
troublesome person?

UNKNOWN: We never discussed that people should be killed, but we were just discussing the trouble that's happening in the location but there was no decision taken that he should be killed.  It was just reported in the police and there was no steps taken by them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I get the impression, as you responded to certain questions, that you just went past there, you had no  intention of killing David, you were not there to provoke David, you were not sent by anybody, it was no instruction whatsoever, and the gun that you were carrying was an illegal gun.   Why did you carry that gun?

UNKNOWN: The gun that I had was for the purpose of defending myself in case these people want to kill us up here.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Will I be correct to state that the protection was directed against the vigilante group?

UNKNOWN: Yes, as I say, because they are the people who always tried to (inaudible) so I had to protect myself against them and to protect the community.  So we had to be on the defence.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: David was a vigilante group member, David Mayeko, and you had a gun on you to protect yourself against them, why didn't you do anything on him then, because he was the target?

UNKNOWN: When he fell, there was nothing that we did.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: By killing David, what did you sought to achieve?
2

UNKNOWN: /...
27	MR FALTEIN

UNKNOWN: We had no intentions to kill him.  It was just a mistake that he was being shot.   There was no intention.  We were just on our way.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If I heard you correctly, by killing him you
did not want to gain anything, you just killed him?  It was a mistake.

UNKNOWN: Yes, it was a mistake that just happened.   We  had no intention to kill him.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

JUDGE WILSON: As I understand, you saw him rushing out of 685 and the two of you ran away and I think you said at some stage in your evidence you crossed two roads.  Do you  remember that?  You jumped two roads.  And you then didn't realise he was chasing you any more so you turned to go home, is that so?

UNKNOWN: Yes, after passing the two streets we tried to turn back.  That's when we met him.

JUDGE WILSON: And you saw him standing there and your friend shot him.

UNKNOWN: When he appeared at the corner he had a gun in his hand and pointing in our  direction  and therefore co-accused  shot him.  He was just  trying to scare him away, not to shoot him.

JUDGE WILSON: You had been running and he had been running after you, is that so?

UNKNOWN: Yes, it is so.

JUDGE WILSON: Where did all these many policemen who were  on the scene when he was shot come from?

UNKNOWN: I don't know where these police came from.   They were driving in a Hippo, but I am not sure  which direction it came from.   We started running away as soon as 2	it/...
28	MR FALTEIN
it stopped.

JUDGE WILSON: ... police  vehicle.  You don't know where they came from, you don't know how many people were in the vehicle, is that the position?  You just ran away when it
stopped.

UNKNOWN: This Hippo came from another street.  It came from a different street and they just came on the crime scene.

JUDGE WILSON: (Inaudible - microphone not activated)

UNKNOWN: Yes, we ran away.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: How was the SDU to defend the community?

UNKNOWN: We protect the community against the vigilante gangster by attacking people in their houses.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Could you repeat the answer?

UNKNOWN: These vigilante group, we had to protect the community against them because they were fighting against the community.  We had no intention to kill the deceased but we were just defending ourselves and the community.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Forget about the deceased.  I am not asking  questions about the deceased.  I am asking you a question in relation to what you said earlier on that you were a member of the SDU which was to defend the community.   Now my question was, how was the SDU supposed to defend the community?

UNKNOWN: We were defending the community by whilst the vigilante were attacking people we kept an eye in patrolling in the location.  They were going along with the police shooting the people in the houses and burning people's houses down as well.