Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

FAAN VENTER: Sir what is first, the chicken or the egg?  I didn't know that person would die, I didn't know that that would be the firearm, I didn't know that Hani would be shot, it was impossible for me to ask him that.

JUDGE WILSON: The question was did you ask him afterwards as I understand Mr Bizos, not before, after you knew he had used your gun to kill Hani, did you then ask him about whether when he got the gun he intended to use it to kill Hani?

FAAN VENTER: No I didn't.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well why not?  You had suffered some disadvantage as a result of your request by your friend to supply the gun.  You were detained and you had to make a public admission that you had in your possession a stolen and unlicensed firearm, why didn't you confront him, "why did you take this gun from me, used it for the murder of Mr Hani without telling me the true purpose for which you intended the gun to be used"?

FAAN VENTER: I didn't ask, I didn't meet Mr Derby-Lewis in a lounge after that, I visited him in jail and it was too late, it was too late to cry.

GEORGE BIZOS: One of the reasons may well have been that you did not ask him because you knew what it was going to be used for.

FAAN VENTER: No Sir I didn't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Has there been an answer Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes he said he didn't know.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS

MS VAN DER WALT: May I also ask a few questions?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Venter you were detained in terms of Section 29 is that correct?

FAAN VENTER: No the police lied to me and they told me that I was being arrested in terms of Section 29 but I wasn't detained under that.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you have also referred to the fact that you made more than one statement?

FAAN VENTER: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: In court when you testified Mr von Lieres, the Attorney General of the Witwatersrand asked the honourable Court to warn you in terms of Section 204 whereafter you testified and you were granted indemnity of by the court.

FAAN VENTER: Yes that's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: I wish to refer you Mr Chair to volume 8.  I am only going to read a small portion from that, page (607), it is the evidence of the then accused number 3, Mrs Derby-Lewis, top of the page this referred to the date on which Mr Hani was shot, the 10th of April, and page (670), the normal number 530.  It's Volume 8.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the normal number and (...indistinct)

MS VAN DER WALT: 530.

CHAIRPERSON: What does that mean normal number and ...(intervention)

MS VAN DER WALT: There are two numbers Mr Chair, sorry....

CHAIRPERSON: Yes do carry on.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mrs Derby-Lewis was testifying regarding the 10th and then she says in the fourth line
"We had made arrangements to go to the Venter's house.  Mr Venter had phoned me some time in March and said that he had moved into Krugersdorp".
Is that correct?

FAAN VENTER: Yes it is.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you Mr Chair, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR PRINSLOO: It is AH, only a portion had been read, I'd like to read something, or refer to it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Prinsloo whilst you are thinking about it there might be questions members of the Committee might want to ask.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Venter you were asked by Mr Bizos about what you said on page 267 of the record about this happening in the second half of February, if you remember?

FAAN VENTER: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Well if you look at the previous page, page 266 or (406) it is recorded here that you said, after having explained how you got the gun
"How did it happen that you gave it to Mr Derby-Lewis?
		Well Mr Derby-Lewis during March, it must have been the beginning of March sometime asked me - is it this year, March this year?  Yes this year".
So it would seem that you originally said that it was in March and then only a little later you said it was in February.

FAAN VENTER: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: One other point I'd like to deal with you, you said you had three "weapons", what sort?

FAAN VENTER: I had a shotgun, a .357 Magnum revolver and a .22 revolver.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you known as somebody who liked guns?

FAAN VENTER: Well yes I am quite enthusiastic about firearms, I have an eye for them.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Exhibit AH was it written by yourself?

FAAN VENTER: Is that the statement which I saw here?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes.

FAAN VENTER: No it wasn't written by me.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I understand your evidence to be that you gave the - you delivered the firearm to Mrs du Rand on the 10th of March.

FAAN VENTER: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And I notice that on your statement, paragraph 5, well your cancelled "first part" to "second part", you corrected that.

FAAN VENTER: What did I correct Sir, I am not with you?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well the portion that you were shown earlier on during the "second part" which was "first half" and then you changed it to the "second half".

FAAN VENTER: Yes, in my statement yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And the same mistake was repeated in your evidence, during the trial, that it was during the second part of February.

FAAN VENTER: That's correct.  The police insisted and they kept saying February, February and I think that is how I made the mistake.  It was purely a slip of the tongue, it was an error.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But would you say that the 10th of March is the second half of the month?

FAAN VENTER: No, as I said after the trial my wife, who remembered my childrens' birthdays much better she said to me - "look Fanie it is wrong, it was the 10th of March", and when I reconstrued the whole thing in my mind it was in fact the 10th of March, it was correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No, what I am saying to you, please listen to my question carefully.  I am referring to page 407 of the record.  I appreciate you don't have a copy, but let me read it to you what your supposed self-correction reads like.
"I just want to correct it, it was the second half of March".

FAAN VENTER: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But that can't be correct.

FAAN VENTER: It isn't correct, it's the first half of March, and that's why I said I made a mistake.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No, you didn't say you made a mistake about this, you told us a short while ago that during the trial you corrected yourself from saying the second part of February, you corrected yourself and put it right to say the second part of March.

FAAN VENTER: That's correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Which is also incorrect.

FAAN VENTER: That's also incorrect, that's also incorrect.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So you are being incorrect in about three, four times.

FAAN VENTER: Yes I was wrong with the date.  At that stage I really couldn't recall what the date was.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You were wrong in saying the first half of February; you were wrong, according to you, in saying the second part of February; and you were also wrong in saying the second part of March.

FAAN VENTER: That is correct, yes, unfortunately it is one of those things, I am sorry.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But when you made these two mistakes regarding February, that's the first part of February, and the second part of February, were you not tying this up with the fact that - that is were you not tying up the date of the delivery with the fact that as you say you delivered the weapon only after you had already arrived in Krugersdorp.  Do you understand my question?

FAAN VENTER: No not really, please repeat that.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You told us that you arrived in Krugersdorp in March.

FAAN VENTER: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: When you made this statement which you say is incorrect you knew that you had arrived in Krugersdorp in March, isn't it?

FAAN VENTER: Yes and no.  I actually confused March and February totally. I am very sorry, it was simply a mistake.