Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-20

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes I shot various times to that group.

MR TIPP: Mr Mangena do you appreciate that those shots might have injured or even killed persons in that group?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes.

MR TIPP: After you had fired shots, what did you then do?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: After I shot - I don't understand the question clearly sir.

MR TIPP: Once you had fired the last shot that you fired there, what did you do.  Did you remain in the position or move away from it?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: After I shot I went inside Shell House.

MR TIPP: Mr Mangena you've applied for amnesty, I'd like you please to Explain to the committee why it is that you are applying this morning for amnesty.

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I apply amnesty because there is a possibility that the shots I shot, it could have been possible that I shot beyond reasonable limit and it could have happened that my shots could have - maybe there were people I shot and who have died or who have injured.

MR TIPP: At the time that you stopped shooting, were there any members of this crowd close to you?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: May you repeat your question sir.

MR TIPP: Yes.  At the time that you fired your last shot Mr Mangena, as far as you can recall were there any members of the attacking group who were close to you or was the position clear in front of you?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: At the time I couldn't see any person, only those who were lying on the ground.  There were no people where they were before.

MR TIPP: Mr Mangena you've explained to the committee that you consider that you might have injured people with shots that it wasn't necessary to fire.  If that is indeed the case, how do you feel about that incident and your action?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I feel sorry because what happened could have been avoided.  I feel sorry that that thing has happened because it was not necessary for it to happen.

MR TIPP: When you say it wasn't necessary for it to happen, do you refer just to your own action or to the entire incident?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I mean the whole incident sir.

MR TIPP: And finally Mr Mangena I just want you to state fully, what was the reason for your taking action, what was it that you were protecting?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: In my participation in this incident was in accord with my duty because I was working with the Department of Security and Intelligence.  I had a reason to take part in that incident.

MR TIPP: What was your duty that day?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: My duty on that day was to defend the Shell House building and again to defend the leadership of the organisation who were inside and again to defend the employees, then all of us would remember that we were preparing for elections and as Shell House was the Headquarters, everybody who was in that building was in preparations for the elections.

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman I have no further questions for Mr Mangena.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TIPP

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman with your permission I will again start cross examining.  Mr Mangena have you got the inquest record in front of you?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: Can you please page to page 3362?  Have you got it Mr Mangena?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes I do.

MR PRETORIUS: If you look towards line 20, actually line 22, you will see that the court asked you certain questions.  It reads:  "But look Mr Mangena, as I understand your evidence and tell me if I'm incorrect, when you fired shots on that day you fired shots because you told me that you thought you were in danger", your reply:  "Yes".  "Not that Shell House was being attacked?", "Yes".  "Is that correct, you were concerned for your own personal safety?", "Yes".   "You did not fire shots because you thought Shell House was under attack?", "I do not know, maybe.  Can I just try to explain this thing because when the shots were fired at me because I also, Shell House was behind me so when I was hit and died at the same time I think maybe a certain part of the marchers would have got access into the building, but now for protecting myself it automatically meant that I'm even protecting the structure behind me".  "But I mean is that what you thought was going to happen, that Shell House was now under attack?",  "I beg yours?".  "When you fired that shot?", "Yes".  "Is that what you thought in your head that Shell House is being attacked?", "It is not what I thought".  It carries on from there Mr Mangena, in fact for several pages up to page 3365 and it ends, if you page to page 3365 again as from approximately line 18:  "Well will you then explain to me why you were shooting?", "My life was threatened that is why I had to open fire", again: "Because your life was threatened?", "Yes".  Do you see that Mr Mangena?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes sir.

MR PRETORIUS: Now my learned friend Mr Tipp, right at the end asked you your reasons why you fired that day.  You gave a long explanation, but it is quite clear from this passage and maybe for the benefit of the committee if I can just refer them on several passages, other passages, in the inquest record where he emphasised that he fired because he feared for his own life.  If I may just enlighten the committee as far as that is concerned.  Page 3329 as from line 24, page 3330 line ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just say it again, the last one 3-3 and what else?

MR PRETORIUS: 3-3-3-0, Three thousand three hundred and thirty.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PRETORIUS: Page 3344, line 4, that's also just references where he testified that he shot because his own life was in danger.  Now just to get back Mr Mangena, when your counsel Mr Tipp, my learned friend Mr Tipp asked you the reasons why you fired that day, you gave a lot of reasons now at the end but you never said that you feared for your life.  Is that correct?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: May you please repeat your question sir?

MR PRETORIUS: At the end of the questioning of my learned friend Mr Tipp he asked you to give reasons why you fired that day and you gave a lot of reasons but the one reason that you never mentioned was that you fired to protect yourself because you feared for your own life.  Is that correct?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Even if you are scared it was the reason that I should shoot, it was one of those reasons.

MR PRETORIUS: You see Mr Mangena I have referred you now to passages out of the inquest record.  In that passages you even testified that at that moment in time you did not think that Shell House was, or the building was under attack, all that you thought about was that your own life is in danger and that you must fire to protect your own life.

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I don't know how to respond to your question.

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, I want to intrude as little as possible in the cross examination, but where the very first passage that my learned friend reads out sets out clearly the conjunction in the witness's mind of the protection of himself and the protection of the building, it is startling that the present position should flow from that.