Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

JUDGE WILSON: : I understand, I personally did not hearthat the reports about the issuing subpoena indicated that thepersons named may have been involved in the commission of offences.  I think it only right we should make it quite clear that ifanybody who was present at the hearings last week would have knownthe evidence relating to Mr Winter related to his position asCommanding Officer of the Special Branch of Cradock and of whathe did in connection with Mr Venter's visit there.   It did notrelate or suggest that he
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had taken any part in the kidnapping or any part in what subsequentlyhappened and I should think it is regrettable if there was anyreport which indicated anything to the contrary.   It is his evidence,the evidence led indicated that he might well be able to throwa light on what was going on in his district at that time andit was for this purpose that he was subpoenaed as a witness.  We thank him for having come here today and I gather he alsosaw Mr Mpshe last week and is prepared to give such evidence.  We regret that because we are going to adjourn, we'll have toadjourn yours as well.   I trust we can make arrangements thatwe can give you adequate notice of the adjourned hearing.

MR WINTER: Thank you sir, I accept it like that.   MayI just add this is, according to me a serious matter, the whole,my problem is that on Thursday evening while driving from workhome, I turned on my car radio to hear that I'm "verdwynsoos 'n groot kopspeld", a man who owns a home, who has afamily, has a fixed job that goes to church on Sundays, who doeshis shopping at every shop he needs to go, so I'm not runningaway from anything, I'm not hiding anywhere.   This is my mainproblem.   Such embarrassment has been caused that I'm now ina position where I don't know if I'm employed anymore becauseI can't blame my employer for, when he switched his radio on tohear his employee is a fugitive criminal.   That is my problem,that's my concern, so I don't know if somebody can rectify thisor will try and rectify this?   This broadcast was done by AngieCaprianos as far as I heard on the radio.

JUDGE WILSON: : I regret we have no control over broadcastsand I certainly have no recollection of it having been said atthis hearing that you had disappeared or anything of that
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nature.

MR WINTER: I thank you sir and I will accept it likethat, I will deal with it at another time(?).

CHAIRPERSON: Before you leave will you kindly make youraddress available so that a subpoena can be served upon you forthe adjourned hearing?

MR WINTER: I will gladly do so sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Winter.   What this really nowmeans is that evidence in respect of what has been described inthese proceedings as the "Pepco 3 Case" will not beproceeded with now and will only be resumed on another day.  Wemay now proceed then with the rest of the matters that have beenset down.   Mr Beselaar, is he represented?

MR DU PLESSIS: : No Mr Chairman, I mentioned that Mr Beselaaris not represented at the hearings, I consulted with him and weassisted him but he's not represented at the hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well steps will have to be taken to ascertainhis address.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Yes no problem, we know exactly wherehe is.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman I may mention it's not necessaryto subpoena him, he will volunteer to give evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well that will be recorded.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman do I hear the Committee to be sayingthat fresh subpoenas will have to be issued for the next dateMr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: No.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Thank you.
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MR DU PLESSIS 280 ADDRESS

CHAIRPERSON: Only in respect of Mr Winter who has neverbeen subpoenaed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman before we ask permission toleave, there is one other point we would like to take up withthe Commission and that's the point about costs.   We would askfor costs to be awarded for our client who is not in a positionto pay for his legal personnel, but if the Court wants us to submitlegal representations, we would rather do that and afford theCommittee an opportunity to go further with the hearing today.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not know whether I can make any rulingson the question of costs.   This is an Amnesty Committee whereissues of cost are not decided by the Amnesty Committee.   I thinkthat you must make your representations to the Truth and ReconciliationCommission, the appropriate officer there and see if you can negotiatewith them.

MR DU PLESSIS: : As the Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Excuse me Mr Chairman if I may justadd as well please.   We have received no assistance as far astravel arrangements and accommodation is concerned, I'm not talkingabout legal costs incurred.   I have reason to believe that thefamily members of the so-called Pepco Three as well as their legalrepresentatives were flown up here at the expense of the TruthCommission.   My client has been subpoenaed to come here, I wouldlike to know what the position would be just as far as coveringhis travel expenses and possibly we couldn't arrange for a flightback tonight, all the flights is (indistinct), we will be goingback at 6 o'clock tomorrow morning.
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CHAIRPERSON: I can do no more than tell you to raise thematter with the relevant officer of the Truth and ReconciliationCommission.
MR DE JAGER(?):: I think there are regulations, prescribedregulations as far as travelling costs and subsistence allowancesare concerned.   As the Chairman said, you can take that up withthe legal advisor of the Commission but there are regulationsapplicable and I think it's been done through the Legal Aid Boardand there are prescribed tariffs as far as witness fees and soon is concerned.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Is there any name of a person who Ican get in contact with?

UNKNOWN: I think you must arrange that with Mr Mpsheafter the adjournment.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused from further attendance andso are your respective clients.

CHAIRPERSON: Unfortunately time is taken up when the Committeeis in chambers with all kinds of matters pertaining to this hearing,directly or indirectly, and sometimes we are delayed in commencingproceedings.   I find that we are now nearing 1 o'clock and itmight not be particularly prudent to make a beginning with a witnessmerely to have him sworn in and then to commence his evidenceafter the adjournment.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Yes Mr Chairman, I would prefer it ifwe could start with his evidence after the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, the Committee will now take an adjournmentand resume at 2 o'clock.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Before proceeding with this witness, wouldit
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not be appropriate for us to finalise this chapter by callingMr Tibedi?

MR DU PLESSIS: : I have no objection against that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman he is available he may be calledMr Chairman, though I have not consulted with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it not your intention to call him as awitness?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : It was my intention Mr Chairman but not assoon as this, I thought we were going to finish with (indistinct)as they come but there is no problem in calling him right now.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct that once we hear his evidencethen there will be no other evidence relating to this incident,it will have rounded off this matter and we think it might beappropriate if we could round off this matter.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : I will abide by that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just step down, please step down, we'regoing to get hold of Mr Tibedi to give evidence.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman may I just be afforded a minutewith him here?