Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-03

CHAIRPERSON: The persons who were involved in the incident on the 12th of July were Vips, Lucky, Richard, Masavelo ...[intervention]

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: And Miles or Meelie Simelani.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  And who else?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: About Ntjebe, I'm not too sure his role as to what it was because in all these things he would take part.  This car of Jackson Nkosi he was also in it after Nkonza died.  And the caravan that they used to occupy, they never used to have a shack they had a caravan which was set alight, that they occupied.

MR MADASA: Whose Ntjebe?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Ntjebe is Hamilton Ndaba Ndondolo.

CHAIRPERSON: And now where does Tusanang, is it Ntuseng?

MR MALAN: Tusanang.

CHAIRPERSON: Tusanang come in?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: This Tusanang Chairman, his role I'm not too sure because here in the ANC Youth League he also was there and also in the forefront and the committee member of the self-defence unit that was being formed because of the following reasons ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Wait a minute.  Was he involved in these two attacks that you have described?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: No, he wasn't there.

MR MADASA: Were you present at the march which was led by Hani?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Please repeat your question.  There were so many marches, which one are you referring to?

MR MADASA: Where there was a demand for the release of prisoners.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, I was there Sir.

MR MADASA: Did members of the ANC Youth League do anything at that march?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, Sir.

MR MADASA: What did they do?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: We went as a self-defence unit of Kathoras, Katlehong, Tokoza and Vosloorus, accompanying Chris Hani going to Motabe.  A train was organised for us and we boarded the train at Katlehong station via Germiston to Daveyton station.
	As we were going to the march, I mean taking the memorandum, the arrested ones who were arrested for political reasons were to be released.  Our ANC Youth League members came back with stolen goods, things like televisions, computers, videos and things like money.
	When we came back comrades were shot as there was the ANC Youth League and the self-defence unit and the community in general, the members of which were the members of the ANC and the victims as a result of the Youth League.

MR MADASA: Did you confront the members of the - those people who had items with them?  Did you confront the members of the ANC Youth League who brought items with them?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, we did ask them as I am sure that it is not the movement's policy to take but there is this word that says, as we were under oppression of the previous regime that was sabotaged, yes, there is also this insult that says you come from the rural areas and you want to be in charge of the townships.

MR MADASA: Now do you know Bulelwa personally?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, I knew Bulelwa Ziwane Z-I-W-A-N-E.

MR MADASA: To which organisation did she belong?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Bulelwa according to my knowledge was an ANC member, ANC Women's League and she was also involved in the train sectors, also involved in the street committee in block F.

MR MADASA: Did you have a relationship with her as SDU's?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Would you please repeat your question.

MR MADASA: Did you have a relationship with her as a SDU's?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, there was a relationship between ourselves and Bulelwa in particular, especially herself as  female Xhosa speaking apart from herself being a Xhosa woman.

MR MADASA: Did you organisational relationship with her as SDU's?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, I would like to say that Sir, there was this relationship.

MR MADASA: How was the relationship between you and her?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: As I have already explained Sir, this relationship between the self-defence unit members and Bulelwa - and when we wanted to talk to the community the civic used to be our mouth piece when it comes to problems that we encountered and when we were in short of certain things like Ntelezi they used to be our mouth piece, Bulelwa in particular.
	When it comes to the collection of money for the shovels and the buying thereof, she was part and parcel of the community and the people in particular who collected those monies in block F.

MR MADASA: But Bulelwa at the same time had a relationship with Buthelezi, is that so?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I don't understand that quite well Sir, that relationship.  There may have been, there may have not been but there's one thing in one block and that is block F.

MR MADASA: Now, did you meet Bulelwa on the day before she died?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Bulelwa we used together from Moleleki Extension 2 to catch a train at Natalspruit station in morning and in the evening.

MR MADASA: Did you meet her on the day before she died?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see her on the 6th of December, I think it is, is that right?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, I did see her.

MR MADASA: Where?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Bulelwa was travelling in block D, travelling from her relatives whom I did not know at that time who used to stay in block D.

MR MADASA: Yes, continue what happened?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: As I have already explained Sir, that Bulelwa used to be my companion as we were travelling in a taxi to the station and coming back by train.  She was a daily companion.  As we have asked for money at block F to buy these shovels, which money was collected by herself, days before that there was problems pertaining to the collection of the money.  The money did not get ultimately to the defence unit, what we did - it transpires it was taken by Mr Mokwena if I'm not mistaken, who stays in 8963 in block F.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still telling us about the meeting you had with Bulelwa on the 6th of December 1993?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, I'm coming to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, tell us about that.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: When we met Bulelwa she said: "Mkaia" as we used to call each other, she wanted to know if the money was coming in block F as we had asked for money in block F.
	She asked as to whether the money had been received which money we had already collected and gave to someone.  She wanted to know whether we had already received the money and I indicated that we have not yet received the money, we were walking together.  She then explained that this money had been collected long ago but it transpired that the SDU that was being formed in block F was keeping it.
	I then asked if there would be two defence units in block F and she indicated that that was also her question.  It was concluded that because she was a woman she should just remain silent.  And when she explained she found it strange that the money that was donated by block F was asked by the existing defence unit.
	It was therefore strange that the money had not reached that self-defence unit and she then went on to say I must be careful because in block F it is said I am the one who doesn't want the youth to do their things in Moleleki Extension 2.   
	"And therefore I am warning you myself, being Bulelwa, do not - she said: "I am warning you that in these meetings that are held frequently in Moleleki Extension 2, you should not speak out because you disturb the youth of Moleleki Extension 2 and they are therefore not able to do what they want to do".

MR MADASA: Yes, did you then separate or did anything happen to her?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you eventually - you were walking together, is that right?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: She was walking with a certain person called Binkie, even though I don't know her surname.  There were three of us.  Yes, I was there as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you eventually go to your house?  Did you eventually go to your house and she proceeded to her house?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, that is so Sir.