Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

MR VISSER: You knew Erasmus from beforehand, he was your handler as a police informer from 1983, do you agree with that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes I knew him.

MR VISSER: And you knew Shaw as well?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes I knew them.

MR VISSER: And I'm going to put to you that for some reason you are slanting the facts by creating the impression that you were introduced to these people on this day in
January 1989.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Visser if you read on,
"He then showed me a photograph as an informant with Lieutenant Erasmus we recruited our Security Branch informant with Lieutenant Erasmus".
wouldn't that indicate that he knew Erasmus before and that, I don't know exactly what the meaning of that will be but it could be that he tried to say well I've been introduced but I saw this photo and that was the one Erasmus showed me before.

MR VISSER: Commissioner de Jager is of course quite correct, we have problems with those words ourselves and that's why we were asking the questions.  May we continue to exactly where Commissioner de Jager has read from.  You see then the following strange thing happens, Coetzee, you say, shows you a photograph of Venter, apparently ringed, circled, was it circled with a koki pen, what, what was done with the koki pen on the photograph?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was just his initials written on, P D Venter and nothing more.

MR VISSER: I see.  So was it a photograph of Mr Venter alone or were there other people on the photograph?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We keep a photo album, we keep a photo of informers and a photo of suspects and whenever you deal with a person you are shown the photo. As to where they got the photo I don't know.

MR VISSER: But Mr Ngo as intelligent people Erasmus knowing that he took you, according to your own evidence, to Mr Venter, that you stayed with Mr Venter, that he gave you refuge, why would they have to show you a photograph?  Didn't you say to them but are you mad, you know I know this man, I loved this man?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I got the explanation from Colonel Coetzee, he gave me the definition and the procedure used when you are going to do an operation on that person and you had to be shown the photo.  That was the normal procedure we followed.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And you see then the words ...(intervention)

MR NEMANE: Mr Chairman I beg your pardon, there has not been any evidence that Coetzee was aware that Erasmus had informed the applicant that Venter was an informer, and if my learned friend wants to make the point that he seems to be making he must first establish whether Coetzee at that time was aware of the relationship between the applicant and the deceased.

JUDGE MGOEPE: On the same vein, wouldn't - I'm not so sure whether one can say that with regard to the issue which Mr Visser raised about the question of introducing I am not sure whether one can say that Colonel Coetzee was aware of the fact that the applicant and Mr Erasmus knew one another.  I am not able to establish that on the papers.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman of course we have a problem with procedure here first the applicant has to give his evidence, Coetzee is here from Pretoria, from Krugersdorp, he will give that evidence Mr Chairman, but I've now got to put the questions otherwise it's going to be too late, but he will give that evidence.  He especially came ...(intervention)

JUDGE MGOEPE: I'm talking about laying the basis for questions.

MR VISSER: Yes Mr Chairman but the only basis I've got is the evidence that will be led later from Coetzee.

JUDGE MGOEPE: How can that be so?  How can that be the
only basis?  It depends on how you put the questions to the applicant.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman I'm entitled to put questions to the applicant on the basis of what my instructions are from the witnesses, from my clients.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I'm not saying you are not entitled to put the questions, I'm saying your colleague is making a point that you should lay down the basis for questions that you want to ask.

MR VISSER: Well I am not certain that I understand the objection Mr Chairman, but I'll step off this question if it's an embarrassing question.  Now the particular person whom you refer to as Coetzee do you see him here in the hall?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes he's dressed in the brown suit.

MR VISSER: That was the person who made the affidavit marked P12 Mr Chairman, Brigadier Coetzee.  And he will give evidence to deny the allegations that he gave instructions to you regarding the elimination of Mr Venter.  Now in your statement, the words which Commissioner de Jager read to you I want to read to you as well, when you were shown this photograph you say, you say,
"I also noticed that it was Mr Venter, the....."
and then I can't read, what I've got here it's blanked out, probably...
".... the one we recruited as Security Branch informant with Lieutenant Erasmus".
I don't know whether I should read on, whether the sentence ends there, I think I should stop there Mr Chairman,"...with Lieutenant Erasmus".  Now the "we" that you refer to there does that refer to you and Lieutenant Erasmus?  I've just 
noticed that it's 4:30 Mr Chairman, 5:30.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It is - he was an informer of Lieutenant Erasmus, I knew him as his informer.

MR VISSER: You did not intend to convey by the word "we" that you had anything to do with recruiting Venter as an informer?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No I never recruited him as an informer.

MR VISSER: This is a convenient time Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Very well we have - there are certain other problems tomorrow morning and we will not be able to start at 9 o'clock as normal, it will probably be closer to 09H30.  If we could ask people to be here at 09H15 because I warn you we may be held up.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Sorry just before we adjourn Mr Visser, I'm not sure that it was in connection with this matter, can you just refresh my memory, did you say that the police or some people were opposing an amnesty, somebody's amnesty application?

MR VISSER: .... I am sorry, the opposition is on this basis Mr Chairman, that if this person, this applicant, I am sorry am I ...(intervention)

JUDGE MGOEPE: I just wanted to know that - that's all I wanted to know, I am not saying that you should justify it or not, but I just wanted to know - to consider your questions each time in their proper context, not that they are just merely coming to deny allegations, but in fact they are opposing the application.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION AT 14H00

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: (s.u.o.)

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Ngo, you knew then, during the trial, you knew that there was a real possibility of you being sentenced to death, not only you but your brother, especially your brother, Ari, as well.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, I was aware.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And despite that you were not prepared to expose the police, your colleagues, you were rather prepared to run the risk of yourself and your brother being sentenced to death?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, I was by told by my officials that they would help me.  They would do all possible means, because I told them that I saw that this case was becoming very tough, and they said they would assist me with escaping and I tried to escape in Pelonomi but I was recaptured again.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But they never promised to help your brothers.  You could see that they were not helping your brothers and they never in fact promised to help your brothers.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: If I was sentenced to death, I was going to follow certain channels, I was going to be exposed of.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And what about your brothers?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was going to tell them that they are innocent, I was going to expose and say, declare them innocent and tell how I did all that.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Well, did you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, I never got a death sentence.