Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-30

CHAIRPERSON: That's good for a start, but you must also realise that when you talk about a society, society can't exist on an agreement, it goes further than an agreement, it goes to co-existence, not so?  Is that what you've got in mind?

ELIAS ZWANE: Yes, that is what I think.

CHAIRPERSON: Well hopefully something can be done in the near future where all those have promised here in this public hearing will keep to their promises and let's get a process started at least where this unacceptable nonsense will stop, would you agree?

ELIAS ZWANE: Yes, I do agree.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Sir.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, the next witness with your permission, Olga Sibiya.  She is the mother of Advice Gwala.

CHAIRPERSON: Which language would you prefer to speak?

MRS SIBIYA: siZulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objections to taking the oath?

MRS SIBIYA: I don't have any objections but I don't know why I am supposed to take the oath.

CHAIRPERSON: When you give evidence you give evidence under oath, have you got a problem with that?

MRS SIBIYA: I don't.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to give evidence?

MRS SIBIYA: There is no evidence that I'm going to lead but it was a question that I wanted to ask.

CHAIRPERSON: Well it could develop into evidence then.  I think it would be preferable if you do take the oath and then we can deal with your question.  Are you satisfied with that?

MRS SIBIYA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: What is it you wanted to ask?

MRS SIBIYA: I wanted to hear with regard to my child.

CHAIRPERSON: What about him, how he died?

MRS SIBIYA: With regard to the manner in which he died because I am not satisfied by the testimony that has been rendered before this Committee.  I went to his case, that is from Natal to this place, but now it's only now that I get an explanation that I did not get before.
	But some of the evidence that was led in court is not or hasn't been led in this Committee.  For instance, that Mr Gushu testified to the effect that he killed my son outside the car and as he killed my son outside the car, he led testimony to the fact that he was standing opposite him.  
	I would like to know as to the fact that if he killed him whilst he was outside the car, how come the car was riddled with bullets?  Who was he shooting inside the car or who was he aiming at inside the car?  That is the first question that I want to pose.
	Secondly, according to my knowledge Gushu was standing under a tree opposite the kitchen door.  That is where my son went out.  His kids first went out, three kids, and they got into the car.  The first-born was six years old, the other one was one year and nine months old and the third one was six months old.  They went out with their mother who put them in the car and shut the door and went back into the house.
	Whilst she was inside the house the father of the kids went out to the car because there was a kid who was crying and that kid wanted to get into the car and when he got into the car Gushu started shooting, having seen the kids inside the car.  I would like to know as to what aim he had with regard to the kids because up till today the other one was psychologically affected or mentally disturbed.
	Thirdly, I would like to know as to how many times he shot him.

CHAIRPERSON: On the third question, Mrs Sibiya, was there no doctor's report?  I'm just asking, I don't know if you know.

MRS SIBIYA: What makes me ask is that he said he shot my son whilst he was outside the car but the car itself was riddled with bullets, even the house itself was riddled with bullets.  I don't know whether he was still shooting my son or he wanted to kill us all.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?

MRS SIBIYA: Yes, that is all besides this court issue.  In court Gushu said he was sent or directed by Mr Mabena to kill my son and when I got in here he gave testimony to the effect that Jabu Mkhwanazi directed him to do that.
	Now as to who gave the order remains a mystery.  I came across JJ Mabena, I was from Durban having come to Mbalendle.  They talked and their friends, but it comes as a surprise to me that he actually issued the order that my son be killed.  Now I want JJ to explain as to how he could issue such an order.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, will a similar exercise be done in respect of the children of Mr Gwala?

MR HATTINGH: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Sibiya, you must correct me if I'm mistaken, it seems that most of the questions you ask are related to evidence that was given in the criminal trial, am I right?

MRS SIBIYA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now unfortunately I wasn't present at the time and in order to appreciate the position I must add that as far as I know, I could gage, most of these accused pleaded not guilty in the trial, if at all.  And it follows they would not tell the truth if we have regard for what they say today or in this hearing, do you follow so far?

MRS SIBIYA: Yes, I do follow but now I'm asking with relation to this hearing because Mkhwanazi testified, that was not a court statement but it was his own testimony that he spoke to Mabena that Advice should be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm coming to that.  Now to what extend people have not told the truth in the criminal case one never knows.  It is obvious that they did not tell the truth in order to get acquittals, but when they come to this forum, into this hearing, they take advantage of an opportunity that has been provided.
	I know not all the people support this system, I'm aware of that but the fact of the matter is that it is here and it is available to people to come to this hearing and make application for amnesty.  They are supposed to tell the truth.  Even then one cannot guarantee that the whole truth will come out, hopefully it will.
	Each of the applicants here have conceded, some in my view unnecessarily, that they were guilty of murder and suchlike crimes.  I don't know, I can understand your questions but to compare what was said in the criminal trial to what was said here is likely to give one doubts, as you can understand.
	I don't know if it would not be more suitable to want to find out the political reasons, the political motives why people were killed as opposed to what happened at the scene of the incident because we are going to go around arguing with each other about the factors and the facts as it happened then and in my view it doesn't get us very far.
	Perhaps one should question whether there was really a political motive or not to justify that killing.  I'm not saying that killing in any way can be justified but the law has taken cognisance of that possibility.  I can understand also that you are angry, you've lost a son.  I think there are many people in this country who suffered the same heartache.  
	Having said that, I don't know if anyone of us are able to answer these questions for you.  It is good to have got it off your chest, to have got it out of your system to have asked the question.  One can only hope that it will help to sooth the pain that you obviously are experiencing.  
	That is about all that I can say about the issue and to repeat that I don't know whether anyone of us is able to answer those questions.  Mr JJ Mabena you've heard this morning, his matter has been postponed to another hearing.  Perhaps I can ask the evidence leader to note your name and address so that you are informed when Mr JJ Mabena is going to testify on this issue.  I hope that will help, that you will be informed of that opportunity to go and find out and perhaps even get him to answer such questions that you have.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mrs Sibiya, the three children of the late Advice Gwala, were they physically injured in the incident?