Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-02-17

CHAIRPERSON: And how far is it from the school to the place where you shot him?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: It could be a kilometre, but I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: I put it to you that that is not what you said earlier.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: I said before that the distance between Clive's home and the school could be 800 metres.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Chair.
	Now what we now know is that on your estimations as you say, despite finding the transmitter you were prepared to spend approximately two hours in the company of the deceased in and around Emdeni, is that correct?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: No, I was not prepared to spend time with him.

MR RICHARD: The deceased met up with you, on your version, at sunset, which is approximately 7 o'clock.  Your evidence is that the shooting happened some two hours later, is that not time?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: I was estimating.

MR RICHARD: Unfortunately at the moment yours is the only estimation that we have to go on, are you changing your evidence about how long you spent with the deceased?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: No, I'm not changing anything, I did say that it could have been about two hours but I was not certain.

MR RICHARD: So whether it's one hour or two hours, do you not agree that the back-up team, if this thing was indeed a transmitter, would have had more than adequate time to arrive in Emdeni to seek out you and your cell members?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: We did not waste a lot of time from the time that Sicelo arrived at Clive's home until the time that we left that house for the school.   It was a short time.

MR RICHARD: Well, I put it to you if you were seriously concerned about your safety and those of your cell members you didn't behave in a manner consistent with that concern.  Why didn't you go and carry out the execution immediately within half an hour, quarter of an hour?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Firstly, we were at Clive's home and it was not possible to take a decision that he be killed there.  I took the decision that he will be eliminated, but not at Clive's home.

MR RICHARD: In your evidence-in-chief, if I understand  you correctly, you indicated that Mr Zungu and Mr Tshabalala were a little taken aback at your decision, they were surprised.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: That is because I had not explained the situation to them before.  That is why they were surprised.

MR RICHARD: When you explained the situation to them, isn't it correct as I understand you, that you said: "I have decided that the late Sicelo Dhlomo be shot and that is my decision as the commander"?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: When I explained it to them it was to the effect that after Sicelo's disappearance I discovered the transmitter on him when he resurfaced and these weapons that I had given to him were missing.  My explanation to them was very brief.

MR RICHARD: So you stand by what you said yesterday, it wasn't a joint decision, it was your decision to execute the late Sicelo Dhlomo?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you give him these weapons?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Before he was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: How long ...(indistinct)

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: If I'm not mistaken it was between August and September 1987.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is months before.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Richard.
	Mr Dube, what was Sicelo supposed to do with these weapons?  To keep them until when?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: I asked him to keep them for me.  I used to do this from time to time.  For instance if I was going somewhere and there was a possibility of a roadblock and I would leave them and claim them on my return.

ADV SANDI: I hear that you say you used to do that before, had you given him any weapons before this day which you say was either in August or September?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: As I've just said, it was not the first time that I had given him weapons.

ADV SANDI: By the way can I just ask, was Sicelo ever involved in any operation as a member of your cell, did he ever get involved in anything?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: No.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Thank you, Mr Richard.

CHAIRPERSON: You say the weapons had disappeared, disappeared from where?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: They were with Sicelo.

CHAIRPERSON: But you didn't know where he had put them, how can you say they had disappeared?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: I had told him to keep those weapons with him at all times.

CHAIRPERSON: So what are you telling us?  You've told us that you gave him weapons in August to look after for you, now you're saying you told him to keep them at all times, was he to keep them when he went to work, was he to keep them where he might be searched by the police?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: I should explain something.  As I explained before, these were my weapons which I would keep with someone from whom I could get them when I return.  That is why I had given those weapons to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, to safeguard for you.  It was in August or September.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know where they were.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: On the day that we shot him he told me that they had been confiscated.

CHAIRPERSON: So that now, this is something else he told you?  On the day you shot him he told you that the weapons had been confiscated?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know when you gave him the weapons to look after for you that he had a previous conviction and a five year suspended sentence for the unlawful possession of firearms?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: I did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ask, did you make any enquiries about your cell members, about their previous convictions?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: As I explained yesterday the cell had its own commander who was Clive, therefore he was the person mostly responsible for cell members.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a member of the cell in fact?

INTERPRETER: Who is the speaker referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: The deceased.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: He never took part in any cell activities? - you've just told us that.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't tell the other members of the cell when he went anywhere, as he was bound to do if he was a member?   You've told us that yesterday, do you remember?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Initially he used to do it, but as time went on he did not do this anymore.

CHAIRPERSON: Well there wasn't very much time was there, you've said he was only there for a few months.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: You have said he was only a member for a few months, haven't you? - before he disappeared.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: It was about June/July that he'd joined the cell, wasn't it?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Yes, that was my estimation.

CHAIRPERSON: And knowing nothing about his background in August you were asking him to look after your weapons for you?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: As I mentioned before a person was recommended when they were recruited.  I trust the commander of the cell, that he would bring only those people whom we could use safely.  And moreover I was from exile, I was from outside the country, so I did not have enough information on everyone who knew the cell but I relied on the commander.

MR RICHARD: But you could ask the commander, couldn't you, what is this person, what does he do, tell me about him? - before you get involved.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: What I had told the commander was that I would not be the one to decide who he works with, but he had the initiative to come to me and inform on who he was prepared to work with.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I'm asking you now about the person you were working with, the person you were entrusting your firearms to, for him to keep them for you.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Yes, I understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: You make no enquiries it would seem.