Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-20

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I saw the van next to where I was staying, they were two and the other people I did not know.  They requested me to bring a spade because inside the shack house if you want to do something on the floor, you must use a spade.  That is why I went in the house and brought the spade.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did they tell you the reason why they wanted to hide that weapons and dig them in a hole?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No they did not tell me.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee who dug the hole and buried the weapons?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is Silimela Ngesi.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Were you present when that was done?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he known by any other name?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I did not know him at that time but he was one of those who was present at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: One of the two people you did not know?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: May I proceed Mr Chairman?

MR MALAN: Sorry may I just ask, who was Roger?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is Silimela Ngesi.

CHAIRPERSON: You see in your statement you said, and I'm reading from the lines after your counsel has read to you
"I then took a spade and I buried the weapons.  It was myself, Sipho, Roger and two others who I did not know".
From that it would seem that you knew Roger at the time?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I know him because he was called Roger at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.
MR MBANDAZAYO
"We wrapped the weapons in a shawl.  There were four weapons, one hand grenade and eight magazines.  We buried this inside the shack.  Afterwards Sipho gave me R10,00 and I went to a public house.  I do not know where they went, but the next day, the Sunday the 4th, Sipho arrived.  He took the hand grenade and left R9 000,00 with me and told me to keep it for him".

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you explain to the Committee that part, what was actually taking place.  Give the Committee some ...(intervention)

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes he gave me R10,00 and then the took another direction, I went to my place and then the following day he came, that one coming to the R9 000,00 that is not so.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee how did you come that you mentioned that you were left with R9 000,00?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is the evidence I give to the police so that they would release me.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I do understand that but why would you say he left R9 000,00, why wouldn't say they left R4 000,00 or R5 000,00 or why specifically or R2 000,00 or R1 000,00, specifically R9 000,00?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: It was just an amount which came to my head knowing that the, how big is that business.  I thought it would be possible for them to get that kind of an amount in that supermarket.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can I proceed Mr Chairman, no questions?  "That evening we split up and then the Monday he came to me and we counted the money and it was only then that I saw that it was R9 000,00".
Can you explain that to the Committee?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes the following day, on Monday, he came but there was no such amount of money.
MR MBANDAZAYO
"He then left R150,00 and told me that R50,00 is mine and that I must give R50,00 to Pauna (?) and that I must also give R50,00 to Vinger".
Just before that can you explain to the Committee, who is Pauna and Vinger?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Pauna and Vinger were those people whom we had trained within the task force with.  Thus to say Bhani gave me that kind of money, about R100,00 to give it to them, that I should give each R50,00, it was because they were helping me to take those arms.  I was just adding to the statement so that the police would understand the logic that those people were helping me so that they would be able to understand clearly and how they helped me.
MR MBANDAZAYO
"That's the last time I saw him.  Two weeks after the attack on the supermarket other women had to go to my shack where we buried the weapons.  We were supposed to remove the weapons, that's myself, Thonsa(?) and Vinger.  That was on a Friday.  We took it to Thonsa's shack.  Last week on Saturday, the last week in Saturday Theboga arrived but this was before this one.  That was when he determined that the weapons were no longer at my place.  I do not know what happened on the Thursday and I was arrested on the Friday".

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you explain to the Committee that last portion which has just been interpreted to you?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: After that Theboga came to find out as whether those arms were still safe or not.  He knew that day that those arms were no more there, they were at Thonsa's house.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now do you confirm that this is what you told the Magistrate?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Who - you have already told the Committee about Thonsa, or is this the same person with Thona or is just ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thona Mr Chairman.  Thank you Mr Chairman.  And here you are talking about Thonsa, who is Thonsa?  You told us about Pauna that they assisted you with Vinger, now you talk about Thonsa, who is that one?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Thonsa is Thonda but it is wrongly spelt here.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thonda?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)?

MR MBANDAZAYO: It's Thonda.

CHAIRPERSON: Thonda?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes.

MR MALAN: Sorry is Pauna also Thonda, is that also wrongly spelt?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: So it was only Vinger and Thonda?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman I'd like the direction because there are two statements, whether it will be necessary first that I lead him through all the statements so that we can be able to post question in conjunction together and point out the differences we see, definite there which I think the other one is different from this?

CHAIRPERSON: Well it's your client who's going to have to - his credibility may well be an issue, it's for you to decide whether you feel it necessary to lead him through it and let him explain.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Which is the other statement?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Exhibit E Mr Chairman.  Just - this one, this statement I've just read to you was done before the Magistrate.  Now I would like you, there's another statement you made before I think Capt Hugo then, Maj Hugo, there's another statement you made before him.  So I would like to take you through that statement and like you, as I'm taking you through the statement I'll ask you to explain and I will refer you to the previous statement to explain the differences which are there in this statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you do so can I ask and I think Mr Steenkamp, whether there's a copy of this statement available?

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman it was handed to yourself I think yesterday, but I'm sure we can just make another copy available.

CHAIRPERSON: I have the original, I don't want to make notes on it.  Neither of the two Committee members have copies they tell me.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman it was definitely handed out yesterday but I will make copies available again.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a two minute adjournment and do that now.  You may be getting some information.  Is there a copy ...(indistinct)?  ... (Inaudible) be recorded that although I have been in possession of the original, it has now been handed to Mr Steenkamp and he is now responsible for it.

MR STEENKAMP: I confirm that Mr Chairman.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can I proceed Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible).

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mazete there is a statement you made before Capt Hugo there.  I think it was, the date is on the 24th of October 1993.  Do you still remember making a statement before Capt Hugo?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes that is correct.