Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

MR MOTLAUNG: Because, in conclusion, I want to suggest to you that you people went beyond all conceivable limits.  You knew that you had an army behind you, you had the police, you already were in the Western Transvaal.  You were already patrolling and you could have defended yourselves against any danger that approaches you, but you go out and you attack innocent civilians.
	I'm suggesting to you that this cannot be condoned under whatever circumstances.  Even under war situation.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Chairperson I did not patrol all of the Western Transvaal and knew whether all the people were there as was promised.  I was on the game farm and that's a small little area and we drove out of the game farm and we drove a few kilometres to Magalies.  I did not know if the other guys were behind us as promised, is that what you want to know?
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTLAUNG

MR BRACHER: Mr Fourie, earlier you spoke of our men, were you one of the men?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: The Ystergarde or the men at the game farm?

MR BRACHER: No, you spoke about the leaders and the men.  Were you a leader or one of the men?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I was one of the officers Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: Where's that, a leader or a men?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, then I would have been one of the men.  I was an officer.

MR BRACHER: And you were chief commandant of the Wencommando, is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That was the case before I was called up to Western Transvaal.  When I left Johannesburg I was no longer their chief commandant of the Wencommando.

MR BRACHER: You were a commandant in the Ystergarde and you were also the commandant at the camp at the game farm?  There's nobody in the AWB who takes responsibility.  And what were your words yesterday?  It seems to me you, who were a commandant bites as much dust as the Generals, is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No I did not eat dust.  I was amongst the people.

MR BRACHER: The moment you decided, "I now realised that we had started the struggle", that's what you say in Paragraph 28.  The moment you realised that or decided that, you went to visit your wife and you never returned, is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Where must I return to if the men were arrested?  Then I must go back and be taken into custody or be arrested and then I mean nothing to the nation.

MR BRACHER: But you lied in front of the Criminal Court, you said that during that meeting we spoke about pipe bombs.  You said you were ill and nobody woke you up, that's what you said in Court, is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I cannot remember that I said that I was ill and nobody woke me up.

MR BRACHER: But you took medicine?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes I was under medication.

MR BRACHER: Can I just read this?  He says he was using medicine but the chance is almost zero that everybody would be woken up except him because such a pipe bomb mission was planned and would be executed without informing the commandant of the camp.  And you said you didn't know anything about the pipe bombs in the Criminal Court, that when you said that.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Chairperson, now we get to the actual point.

MR BRACHER: I hope so.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: In the Ystergarde you take an oath that you would not betray your people and if you turn your back on them you should be shot.  I carried my pride.  I didn't want to betray any of my people.  Koekemoer made statements and he did certain things because he received payment.  I was rather willing to go and sit in prison than betray my people.

MR BRACHER: Mr Fourie, you lied in order not to go to prison.  You bit the dust, did you not?  Is that correct?  It wasn't that you did not talk, it was the fact that you lied to stay out of prison.  Do you have an answer to that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Then it is so Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: I just want to put it on Record that this is quoted from the evidence which he gave in the criminal proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that's the second time it's put on Record.

MR BRACHER: Yesterday you changed your evidence with regard to the meeting between yourself and Clifton Barnard on the game farm on Saturday the 23rd April and the 24th and on Page 133, Paragraph 22, you said originally while you were on the game farm on Saturday 23rd April 1994 Clifton Barnard asked me who was an expert in explosives and I suggested Pieter Koekemoer, I introduced him to Pieter Koekemoer.  That's your version in writing, is it not?

MS VAN DER WALT: It was amended.

MR BRACHER: Yes, I know that.  That's before you amended it.  That's what you said in a written statement under oath?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I just corrected this, that it should be the way it's supposed to be Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now let's get to the point in order not to waste time.  You signed your statement after you had read through it, is that not correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes I did read it.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were satisfied that that was the correct version, that's before you signed it?  Is that the truth or not?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Chairperson, it's the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the important question is this, when you went through this, before you signed it and you read it as the truth, why didn't you correct it then?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Chairperson, as I read through this thing and after a while, when I read it through again, certain things came back to me.  I remembered certain things and that's why it was changed or amended.  It was a long time ago that these things happened and briefly it was the way things happened.  But as time went by I remembered certain other things and during the consultation also.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Sir.

MR BRACHER: Your memory is not too good.  Barnard says and it's on Page 15, Paragraph 23,
"I asked Abie Fourie who was at the game farm who knew Johannesburg well and who was an expert in explosives.  I was given two members, Etienne Le Roux who knew Jo'burg well and Koekemoer who was an expert in explosives."
Can you see that?  Can you see that you were involved in that decision?  That's what Barnard says.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Which Paragraph is that?

MR BRACHER: It's Page 15, Paragraph 23.  Can you see that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Chairperson, this incident took place at Cliffie's farm.  Clifton Barnard asked me in the presence of the others and he asked me to find out who knew Johannesburg well and then Etienne Le Roux answered and said that he knew Johannesburg well.

MR BRACHER: And what about the fact that as you suggested Koekemoer to him as being an expert in explosives?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That happened at the game farm Chairperson, when he said to me, I must go and ask Koekemoer if he knows explosives and then send him to him.

MR BRACHER: Just look on Page 38, Paragraph 29, that's Myburgh's version.
"We went to the game farm at Magaliesberg where the other members were gathered.  Barnard then asked Abie Fourie who was commandant of the camp who knew Johannesburg well and who was an expert in explosives and two members were given to him,"
etc., can you see that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Chairperson, that's not the way it happened.

MR BRACHER: And Page 60, Paragraph 19, that's the original version of Mr Le Roux.  That's exactly the same words he's using and this is all put together by your own advocate, is that true?

CHAIRPERSON: That was also an amended paragraph.

MR BRACHER: Yes I know but it seems to me that in May certain things were remembered which are different today when it suites them.  What do you say about that?  Do you say the other versions are incorrect?