Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-22

CHAIRPERSON: The R600-00 that he is now talking about, is that what was left.  That is the difference.
	He said that money fell out of this drawer, and how would you like to find that out then ultimately?

MS VAN DER WALT: Sir, it is clear that - and it never appears in your statement, but from yesterday you at various times say that you also had to go and fetch things from the Boere, today you said you went to a Boer woman.  Have you got a problem with that?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Problem about what exactly?   A problem about what exactly?

MS VAN DER WALT: Have you got a problem with the word Boer?  Who are you addressing because I am trying to understand this.  Yesterday at various times you mentioned that you had to get certain things from Boere and that you appeared in front of a Boer woman, what are you meaning?  What is the intention?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: If you are a South African, you know the history of this country.  As members of the ANC, COSATU or Communist Party, we were very oppressed.  We had no place in this country according to the apartheid regime.
	That is why I speak like that, because a Boer was anybody who was an oppressor, especially people who worked for the NP, the Magistrates, their soldiers, they were all oppressors.  They were Boers.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who represented you in your case?

CHAIRPERSON: How relevant is that?

MS VAN DER WALT: I will now refer to the judgement of the case.

MR BROWN: Mr Chairman, just before we proceed.  Mr Gushu has been cross-examined, or literally cross-examined on a document which I don't appear to have, and it is a confession.
	This morning, well just now, while the evidence - I was given a bundle, I don't know, I am told it is a police docket, I certainly haven't even consulted or spoken to Mr Gushu about it.
	If we are going to refer to something that is in the bundle that has just been handed as well ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, I will give you an opportunity to re-examine your client if there are any questions that arise out of this.

MR BLACK: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who represented you?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Could the Interpreter speak so that I can hear what is going on.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gushu, you are being asked who appeared and who defended you in the criminal trial?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Please explain because there was a Magistrate court and the Supreme court.  When I was at the Magistrate court, Juliaka Mohammed represented me.  When I was at the Supreme court, Mr Makaya was representing me.
	They all worked together with Mohammed.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you were satisfied with the people who represented you?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, because I am the one who requested them to come and represent me.

MS VAN DER WALT: Very well, because I would like to refer you to page 185 of Volume 1.  Have you got it in front of you?   Page 185.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, but this is written in Afrikaans.

CHAIRPERSON: What it states there is that it seems to refer to you and you are alleged to have said that in Piet Retief, you shot the owner, a businessman of a bottle store because he was a member of Inkatha.
	You took R1 000-00 there.  That is what you are being referred to.  Now, I don't know what the question is.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Mr Chairperson,  this was a confession statement, I did not speak according to my will, I was forced to say everything that is written here.
	This is why in the Supreme court, I tried to contradict this confession, but the Judge was a Boer as well.  He did not want to listen to anything that I said.

MS VAN DER WALT: This part that I am referring to is the judgement, it is not even the judgement on the conviction, and there are certain aspects that was argued in the court, regarding mitigating circumstances.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Any conclusion taken by the Court, anybody, the Judge, the Magistrate or the police, they all worked for the National Party.  To me, they were all tsotsi's.
	They took the decision to sentence me.

MS VAN DER WALT: The Judge then found that the murder on Mr Mlangeni had no political, or Mr Mlangeni who had no political affiliation, and that it was purely a robbery that you committed?

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Van der Walt, tell me to what extent can I rely on this judgement, must I?

MS VAN DER WALT: What you will have to do with respect, is that you will have to look at his evidence and the circumstances under which he committed this.  This was placed before you not by the legal representatives of the people who is opposing this, but it was placed before you by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
	If the facts as I am arguing now, you can also look at that and decide if they correlate and if it is purely robbery and if they were political motives.

CHAIRPERSON: You put to him what the Judge's findings were concerning him.  This is another forum, we are trying to make our own findings, we as the Committee.
	You are putting to him what the findings of the Judge was.  What is the value of that and that is why I am asking to what extent can I rely on this?

MS VAN DER WALT: No, I would just like to put it to him that that is exactly what the Judge's findings were, that is exactly what happened there, because if he went to go and shoot Mr Msibi and if it was his instructions, because there was a political argument between Mr Msibi and the ANC, then he could have shot Mr Msibi without taking the money.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you can put the facts directly to him, and not the findings.

MS VAN DER WALT: I put it to you sir, that if you did execute your order, if there was such an order from Mr Hlaza, then you would have shot Mr Msibi before the till was brought out of the shop and you would have left the scene.
	Have you got any comment concerning this?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Please repeat your question.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you received the instruction from Mr Hlaza to kill or to shoot Mr Msibi, you would have gone, shot Mr Msibi who came out first, and you would have left the scene before the till tray came out of the shop.
	But you only shot Mr Msibi when the money tray came out of the shop.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: That is your mistake what you are saying.  First of all, I knew that Msibi was guarded by the ascaris and also protected by the members of the Black Cats.
	I could not see, I could not go and shoot Msibi whilst I thought that there was somebody inside the shop still.  The instruction was that I should go and kill Msibi, not that Msibi should go and kill me.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Gushu, are you - are you still talking?  Are you saying that if - you mentioned something about ascaris and bodyguards to Mr Msibi, are you saying that if you shot Mr Msibi and ran away, those people would have chased after you and maybe even killed you?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Certainly Mr Chairperson.  If there was someone whilst I was busy shooting Msibi, there was someone inside, as I knew well, that there were people that were well trained inside the house, my operation would have failed then.
	I would have been shot.

MS VAN DER WALT: In the end there were two other people, one was his bodyguard according to the statement?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I would not know who exactly his bodyguard was, because I did not even know individually the ascaris that stayed in his house.
	I went there on instruction.  I am not a Piet Retief resident.

MS VAN DER WALT: So at the stage when you went to go and shoot Msibi, you didn't know that there were ascaris in his house, and that is also how you initially testified?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I knew that there were ascaris or members of the Black Cats that were guarding him or trainees from Makusi Camp.
	I had to be very careful in whatever I did.  I could not put my life in jeopardy.

MS VAN DER WALT: When did you hear about this?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I have said Mr Chairperson, I got there two weeks before the incident.  I am not a politician.  I could not ask for a whole lot of details.