Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR CURRIN: No, if I get all the answers from Brig Cronjethen obviously we will not call him.

CHAIRPERSON: I perhaps thought that you were going to doyour cross-examination differently.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CURRIN

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Van Vuuren, what wasthe power of this generator, how many watts?

MR VAN VUUREN: If I remember, it was a 220 volt generator. 2B Just/...
MR MPSHE 380 J J VAN VUUREN
Just like normal electricity.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ... used on a person, it had the ability ofjerking even his body?  It had  the ability to jerk the body whenused on a human being.

MR VAN VUUREN: No, it wouldn't jerk him around but hisbody would become rigid.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ... when you went to collect Makope?

MR VAN VUUREN: We used a minibus of the Security Police.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: With whom was Makope in his car when you stoppedhim?

MR VAN VUUREN: I can't remember.  The white members ofthe Security Police didn't leave the vehicle.  If I remember correctly,it was only Sergeant Mamasela who got out of the vehicle and whoaccosted Makope, we refer to stealing a person, to robbing a personwhen we grabbed him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ... which gives one the impression that youmay have seen it was possible for you to see the occupants ofhis car, not so?

MR VAN VUUREN: That is possible, but it was at night time. I cannot remember whether there was someone else in the vehicleor not.   Today I cannot remember.  If it  was a week after theevent I would have remembered, but I cannot any longer.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ... on that day he was with a lady in the carand this lady was taken with the car and dropped somewhere, wouldyou remember that?

MR VAN VUUREN: That's possible.  I wouldn't argue  againstyou.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You testified about making use of this generator. Could you tell us exactly how this is done?

MR VAN VUUREN: Is this in the case of interrogation of
2B persons/...
MR MPSHE 381 J J VAN VUUREN
persons?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The use of the generator to kill them?  On page103.  The first paragraph, the last sentence.  "We then shockedMakope to death".  What do you connect, if there is anythingto be connected, and on what part of his body?

MR VAN VUUREN: To repeat, we used the generator.  Therewere two wires.  One  was connected to his  foot and one was connectedto his hand.  Then when you switched the generator on it shocksthe person and his body goes rigid.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That would go on until you are sure that heis dead.

MR VAN VUUREN: Indeed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How long would the duration be?

MR VAN VUUREN: Five to eight seconds, I would say.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Still on the same page paragraph 2 your evidenceis to the effect that he made admissions as to his actions.  "AfterSefola gave additional information and made admissions that hewas involved in landmine incidents as well as the death of peopledue to that,  he was also shocked to death with the generator". At what stage did  he  make these admissions?

MR VAN VUUREN: This was done before he was killed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ... as a senior person in the police force,didn't you think then that with these admissions a very successfulconviction would follow?

MR VAN VUUREN: No, Your Honour.  We would not be ableto put this person in a court.  How would we explain to the magistratewe gained these admissions?  There was no way in which we couldfind such a person guilty in a court.  The moment we would takehim to a magistrate we would be in trouble and he wouldn't bein trouble any more.
2B

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: /...
MR MPSHE 382 J J VAN VUUREN

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Can you just tell us.   What happened to thecorpses or the remains thereof?

MR VAN VUUREN: We took the bodies in the minibus of theSecurity Branch.  We drove to a lonely road in Bophuthatswana. We placed a landmine on the ground.  We packed them on top ofthe landmine and we detonated the landmine.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ... the power or the weight of this landminethat you used?

MR VAN VUUREN: I am not an explosives expert, but I wouldsay that it would have been 5 or 7 kilos of explosives.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Sufficient enough to blow a human body intopieces?

MR VAN VUUREN: Indeed.   It was sufficient to blow several bodies to pieces.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman,  members of the Committee.  I amgoing to show the witness a post-mortem report which I will handup, it is already on the Bench, to confirm what I am going toask him about.  I want you to have a look at page  1 and 2 thereof.

MR VAN VUUREN: I have looked at it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The contents of page 1 as well as page 2 arecommensurate with the powerful blasting of a human being by yourself?

MR VAN VUUREN: That is correct.  I would say so.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The post-mortem report which I have just shownto you, Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, I hand that inas an exhibit.   I think it is EXHIBIT G.  I have givencopies of this to your legal representatives.  In the whole ofthis post-mortem no mention is made of any head or even the bodybeing found.
2B

MR VAN VUUREN: /...
MR MPSHE 383 J J VAN VUUREN

MR VAN VUUREN: I haven't checked this,  but I'll believeyou that it would say so.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No mention is made about the head being foundor even any part of the body, except the legs and the fingers. This to me would imply that a real, real forceful bomb was beingused.  You have agreed to that, not so?

MR VAN VUUREN: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Tell us how these  bodies were blown?

CHAIRPERSON: What is meant by that question, "how theywere blown"?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How they were blown, Mr Chairman, were they tied to the landmine or were they placed close to the landmine, or were they placed close to the landmine?  In what way was thebody blown, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN VUUREN: We placed  the landmines on the groundwith  some mentolite(?) to detonate it with a detonator.  We placedhim on  top of the landmine with the legs  and the arms and everythingon top of the landmine.  We then lit the landmine.  When we wereabout 500 metres from the landmine we parked and we watched itdetonate and blow up.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If I could just be given some indulgence ofa minute.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Van Vuuren, you told usfirst how the generator was used during the interrogation in detail and  you've just told  us again how the landmine was used onthese people, in detail.  Why was this  not  included in yourapplication, as forming part of full disclosure?

MR VAN VUUREN: In my application I said that we blew themup with a landmine.  What more would you want me to tell you? What more must I tell you than that I blew them   up with a landmine?
2B

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: /...
MR MPSHE 384  J J VAN VUUREN

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Everybody would understand that if this  wasexplained to you by your legal representative that when we speakof "full disclosure" we mean all relevant facts to whatyou have done.

JUDGE WILSON: What do you say has been omitted, Mr Mpshe? He says here we blew them  up  with a landmine so that they couldnot be recognised.  It was a road in Bophuthatswana.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is correct, Mr Chairman, that is  included. But I am referringto the details of how this was done,  as  this would impact itselfon the full disclosure that is required in terms of the Act. Can I get a comment on that?

MR VAN VUUREN: I don't have any problem to explain tothe Commission how it was done.  If they believe that I left outanything to make it more clear, I would happily explain this.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Page 109, paragraph (c), right at the bottom. I will read the paragraph for your convenience
  "Dit was ook nodig om aktiviste te elimineer omdat inligting wat tydens ondervraging verkry is beskerm moes word".
I don't understand what you are trying  to say by this  paragraph. Could you explain that?