Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: He was also in the hotel industry and it was very strange that I met him there.  It was just such a strange coincidence and I also felt that Mr Burger tasked him to steal the book.

MR VAN ECK: After you were asked to steal the book at the Royal Ascot Hotel were you applied again to do anything concerning the Lubowski project?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, the next day I met Mr Wouter Basson at the same hotel where he told me that I must leave the whole project, and I then did that.

MR VAN ECK: After the Aitchison incident, the stealing of the book at the Ascot Hotel, did you do anything else for the inner circle of the CCB in Region 6?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No I was arrested shortly after.

MR VAN ECK: Why were you arrested?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Under Section 29 certain allegations were made concerning the organisation and David Webster and I was arrested and detained in Hartebeespoort.

MR VAN ECK: How long were you detained for?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Approximately a month.

MR VAN ECK: Did you have access to people while you were under detention?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No I did not.  I got family members to contact Mr Burger.  He ignored the contact and afterwards he did make contact on which my father forced him to apply for my release.

MR VAN ECK: Who provided you with the funds for these applications?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was the South African Defence Force.

MR VAN ECK: Do you know where they paid it in?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I think it was paid to the legal representative, Mr du Plessis.

MR VAN ECK: Did any police officer visit you while you were in prison?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes it was Krappies Engelbrecht and Brigadier van Rensburg.

MR VAN ECK: Did they say anything to you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: They just made it very clear to me that I had to keep quiet.  They also told me that the consequences, or my inference was that the consequences thereof would not have been favourable.

MR VAN ECK: You made a Section 29 statement, I think it was W/O Derek Carter who was attached to the Brixton Murder & Robbery unit and in this statement or when you made this statement did you tell the truth or what you saw as the truth?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No Sir I did not.

MR VAN ECK: Just to pause here for a while, the statement you made was about the detonation of the bomb at the Athlone Centre and Mr van Zyl made certain statements on the grounds of your statement where he mentioned that a lot of it was false and that the detonation device or the switch that resulted in the detonation or explosion was dealt with by Mr Hardien.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I can recall that he made the statement but I will say that Mr van Zyl's version is the correct version.

MR VAN ECK: Was this with regards to the detonation of the bomb?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR VAN ECK: Why is there such discrepancies in your evidence?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I worked in this branch for a long time.  I have worked with a lot of Section 29 detainees and I was under the impression and it was so that the statement could not be used against me.  So I tried to give as much information as possible without saying too much, if I can put it like that.

MR VAN ECK: Were you released at a later stage?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR VAN ECK: According to the interdict after your release what did you do?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir I was told to lie low for two to three months where I then went to Cape Town with my family and did exactly that.  I lay low.

MR VAN ECK: Did they provide you with funds?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes and amount of R8 or 10,000 was given to me and they told me that they have arranged for a house.  I have to go to this place.  I stayed there for a while and after that I arranged for my own house.

MR VAN ECK: When were your services suspended?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was when they started down-scaling of the staff in the organisation.  I heard that some of my cell members went to DCC.  I did not.  I continued with a private business, it was insurance and I started working in the insurance environment.

MR VAN ECK: Was there money involved?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I think it was approximately R200,000.

MR VAN ECK: Was this used to establish yourself in a private capacity?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR VAN ECK: We will come back to Webster's post mortem inquest that followed on that, but did you at any stage take part in any covert operations through DCC?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, not at all.

MR VAN ECK: Were you approached to continue activities in similar organisations?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, not at all.

MR VAN ECK: Mr Botha at the CCB you have already told us that you sometimes felt left out what was your relationship with Mr Burger?  Were you a trustee?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No I would not say that.  I think it came from my days in Brixton.  I was a new officer there.  They were all established members, the rest of them, Wouter Basson was the heart of the cell with regards to our connection with the rest of the organisation.  So I think they also incorporated them in the group and I don't think they saw me as being of any value, not that I feel sorry for myself, but I was the person who had to do the project to the best of my abilities and I think it came from the involvement in DCC.  At no stage I did anything that could justify my involvement in DCC.  The other members were transferred but I was not asked to transfer.

MR VAN ECK: Very well.  In the beginning you stated that you played rugby abroad, what countries did you play in?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I said yes I played in France, China, Israel, Wales, various other countries.

MR VAN ECK: Did you make certain requests that you be transferred to foreign countries?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I did.

MR VAN ECK: To whom?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Mr Burger.

MR VAN ECK: And what was his reaction?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: He said it was ridiculous.

MR VAN ECK: You have heard the evidence here of Mr Maree that he could go and establish a life in Germany.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was surprising to me, yes.

MR VAN ECK: After an amount of money was paid into your account and you established yourself in your private capacity did you have any contact with the former members of Region 6, for example Slang van Zyl?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Because of the workings of the commissions and the post mortem inquest, yes, we did have contact with each other.

MR VAN ECK: Mr Barnard?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR VAN ECK: Did you know what role Mr Barnard played?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.  Mr Barnard and I went through a phase when we did not see each other very often.  I think it was at the stage when he started with the drugs and everything that happened with that and I think the calming effect that I had on him was lost and we lost contact with each other for a period of time.

MR VAN ECK: So you cannot say, or personally know what he did during that time?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.  Mr Maree, did you have contact with him?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Also on the grounds that I just explained to you.

MR VAN ECK: Why are you here today?