Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-12

CHAIRPERSON: He said it's just over a thousand.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  Do you mind looking at the list of witnesses in bundle A1.  I presume your attorney, Mr Richards, may have it.  If he doesn't I'm prepared to show you my copy, page 3 and 4 which is a list of the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have a copy of that, Mr Richard?  Bundle A1, pages 3 and 4?

MR DEHAL: Correct, Sir.

MR RICHARD: Sorry which page of A1?

CHAIRPERSON: 3 and 4 of the big page of A1, the big numbers, the numbers written in marking pen.

MR RICHARD: My pages 3 and 4 have been removed.

CHAIRPERSON: Right in the beginning ...(intervention)

MR RICHARD: No, I'm saying I've got A1 but my pages 3 and 4 have been removed.  May we borrow it?  I'm indebted to you, Chair.

MR DEHAL: Mr Jeffers, do you mind going quickly through that list, you know your name well, you can identify your name, can you tell us where on that list your name features?  There are a list of 74 persons.

CHAIRPERSON: Does the name feature, Mr Dehal?

MR DEHAL: I do not see it.

CHAIRPERSON: It's number one.

MR DEHAL: Oh, my apologies, sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: You only started reading from number two?

MR DEHAL: Well no, I thought one, two and three were the deceased so forgive me.

CHAIRPERSON: It appears that the names of the deceased persons are on the right hand side column.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  I think two, three and four are the list of the deceased and their next-of-kin alongside of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, yes.  In any event it's there.

MR DEHAL: Thank you, that's what mislead me, sorry.
	Mr Jeffers is it correct that you met with McBride and Mr Ismail during the course of these hearings in an endeavour to reconcile with them?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: Do you oppose the application for amnesty of Mr McBride and Mr Ismail?

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Dehal, he hasn't testified to that, why ask the question?  You may get the wrong answer.

MR DEHAL: I'm indebted to you, Judge.
	Do you recall the trial of Mr Robert McBride in the 1986's, '87's, a trial held in the Supreme Court in Pietermaritzburg?

CHAIRPERSON: Concerning the actual incident in which you were involved at the Why Not?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Vaguely, yes.

MR DEHAL: Were you ever called to participate in that trial?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: No.  No.

MR DEHAL: Did any policemen, in particular security policeman speak to you about your availability as a witness in that trial?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Not to my knowledge.

MR DEHAL: Did you have an attorney engaged at the time to represent you in your application for funds from the State President's Fund?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: I actually, I can't even remember how that all took place, how I got the monies, I don't recall having an attorney.

MR DEHAL: Do you recall - sorry, can you tell us how you were called and when you arrived in these hearings, when you began to participate in these hearings?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Ja I knew these hearings were coming up and a few weeks back ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But have you been attending them, Mr Jeffers?  Have you been listening to the evidence?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: The hearings here?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes this present one that we've - last week?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Yes.

MR DEHAL: Is it not correct that during your reconciliation with Mr McBride and Mr Ismail you felt satisfied that they have made full disclosure, that you're happy having shaken their hands, having met with them, having discussed with them their sorrow for the incidents, etc?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: And during these discussions you told them, in particular Mr McBride, that you were a surfer, you had been to Australia, you left this country so as to not participate in the army, correct?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: That is correct.  May I please add something here?

MR DEHAL: Yes.

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: I was informed that what took place upstairs there was in total confidence and that nothing here would be spoken about until I was ready to carry on further with this.

MR RICHARD: That is correct, Chairperson, but I decided not to object.

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Dehal knows about that, I don't know if you want to ask further questions which - I don't know if what Mr Jeffers is saying whether he's against answering him but if you are certainly feel free to say so Mr Jeffers, but I think it would be in confidence then keep it at.

MR RICHARD: I would ask that the confidence be respected?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that's not unreasonable.

MR DEHAL: Sorry, will you bear with me, Mr Chair, please?
Thank you Chair, I'm indebted to you.
	Mr Jeffers, do you know the Dunnottar Boys, a group of boys who ride motorbikes and who frequented the Why Not, the Why Not bar?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: I knew there was two brothers that had a keen interest in motorbikes and repairing bikes and actually racing bikes.

MR DEHAL: Are these the two brothers that were SADF pilots?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: No, I don't know.  I just knew of them and here of talking.  I'm not sure if they are twins or two young guys or just one year apart in age.

MR DEHAL: Well what did these two boys or men that you talk about do as an occupation?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: I think the one guy was a fitter and turner.

MR DEHAL: You're not sure?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: I'm not too sure, no.

MR DEHAL: And the other?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: I wouldn't like to speculate.  I just know their interest was in motorbikes.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you know a group of people that went to the bar referred to as the Dunnottar.  Is that Dunnottar like the Dunnottar Air Base in Boksburg or Springs or wherever it is?

MR RICHARD: Yes I think Chair, no the correct is Dunnottar Air Base, not gang, as in training school air base.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Did you know anybody, group Dunnottar Group?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: No not that I can recall, I though it was a surname.

MR DEHAL: Sorry, forgive me, I'm not familiar with these pronunciations, I think it's Dunnottar now.
	Did you know Mr Russel Davidson?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Only just to greet and speak to and only because he went to school with my older brother.

MR DEHAL: He wasn't a friend of yours?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: No, not a friend of mine.

MR DEHAL: So he wouldn't fall of the ambit of the friends, the six or seven that you spoke about?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: I don't think so, he might - by face I'd know him.

MR DEHAL: You do know however that Mr Davidson was at the time you so frequented the Why Not bar the owner of that bar?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Yes I did know.

MR DEHAL: And he was a friendly person?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Well he battled to give me a shirt after the bomb you know so I don't know how friendly he was.

MR DEHAL: Well, did you know that he, Mr Davidson, was a member of the Dunnottar bike club?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Up until now I'm not too sure what this Dunnottar bike club is all about.

MR DEHAL: You see, I'm instructed that a group of Dunnottar bikers, if you'd pardon that phrase, had frequented the Why Not.  Mr Davidson was a member of this Dunnottar club, he as client of mine has told me so.  Now most of these Dunnottar bikers were SADF pilots, you cannot dispute that?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: To be honest, I don't know what you're talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's quite clear he doesn't know, he won't be able to dispute or deny what you're saying, he's just unaware of it and also I gathered from the evidence, my impression might have been wrong, but that these people were from Gauteng or Transvaal, from Dunnottar and they would come in as a group for a week or so at a time and then out.  They weren't local, the impression I got from what I heard of them before, local Durban crowd who used to go there once a week, every week of the year.