Human Rights Violation Hearings — Umtata — 1996-06-18

TEDDY EDWARD MWASE WILLIAMS: Thank you Sir. Well what was happened is we came back as Officers from the Soviet Union, there were, that thing, recruits, I would say or newly arrivals. Some of these new arrivals were females of course, so you know there was this type of situation where these young girls were abused or Officers would help themselves, I don't know maybe it was a question of trying to boost their moral or what, you see some of us we had our morale boosted through the visions that we had about the New South Africa. So these guys they used to call these girls part of their - mostly they were administrators, to listen to their orders, it is good of course when you are a subordinate to take orders from above, it is good to respect authority even, because tomorrow you will be authority yourself, but then what happened is that these senior Comrades, some of them they appointed these section Commanders in order to use them, they used to call these girls to the camps - actually to the Administration as if they needed them for something serious and in that way they do what they had wished to do to them. It would appear something voluntary, something that these females permitted, we didn't just immediately challenge this thing, we looked at these things and observed and talked among ourselves and even the trainees, they felt bad about this because some of the trainees they came with their girlfriends to exile. Girlfriends whom - their lovers I would say people whom they planned to marry in the future. Some brought along their wives, you see, and even these wives would be abused. We started to challenge this thing and I was removed from the position of being a Commander, but then fortunately because I had this Engineering and I was very good at military engineering I was later appointed as an instructor, as an engineering instructor, but what, first let me say what usually happens is that as soon as you challenge some of these bad things, like the abuse that I am speaking about, you were targeted, secretly targeted, you wouldn't know about this. Even now, even myself I didn't know about it you see. I didn't know, you come to know about this after a very long time, after the experience that you get and then you feel that I wasn't supposed to be so talkative, you feel I wasn't supposed to be so open, I should have kept myself in the shell you know like a tortoise and you feel it would have been better if you were slow so that when you explode you have the upper hand you see but then we didn't have this hindsight - we were innocent, we were among wolves, it is a pity that I should say this. Most of the leadership you see, or rather the leaders that used to address us in the camps, were men who didn't address to our problems. Those who didn't come to the camps, the man that we needed to come to the camps so that we could speak to - they didn't come to the camps, they didn't come to the camps. When we wanted to speak to ...(indistinct) and explains some of these things to him, we were not given the chance, we felt that he is the only man who can help us and again when Chris Hani was promoted to become an army Commissar from where he went into the National Executive we felt that now here is a man who would listen to our grievances, we were never given a chance to speak to him permanently, we were never given a chance to speak always. When you made and appointment you would always be told that he was in a hurry - he has this and that to do - you know.

MR SANDI: In your statement you say at some stage in the course of all that was happening you were taken to Quattro where you were beaten up and accused of having caused the death of many people?

TEDDY EDWARD MWASE WILLIAMS: Yes Sir.

MR SANDI: And having instigated a mutiny amongst the soldiers. Is that correct?

TEDDY EDWARD MWASE WILLIAMS: That is right Sir. Thank you. About this mutiny, I would say I wasn't part of the mutiny but before the mutiny I was severally maltreated by the African National Congress. I want to say by the African National Congress because the people who did these things were the forefront leaders, I'll simply exempt maybe - I will simply exempt him because we never had a chance to speak to him. Men like Joe Madiso, Mzwyi Piliso, Andrew Msondo were the ones who came time and again to speak to us and whom we could speak to, they didn't want to listen to our grievances. If ever you had opened your mouth, start challenging something like this or that, as I had said you would be targeted either you will be just given a punishment for something that is flimsy - just to demoralise you and frustrate you. Sometimes you would be given an order whom you feel the next person would not take, you had to do it, just to disgrace you and you would refuse and you would get punished. Your character it was a question of physical assassination of a persons character. You would be punished and the punishment was in this form. A sack would be filled up with soil and this sack would be - a - that thing would be put in water and you would carry this sack running, running around with this sack, let me make a good example. When I was in that thing, this Kamalunga, there I was, I was the head of the Engineering Department in Kamalunga, yes, there was a mutiny there you see, somewhere, they had a great protest by the long train soldiers. They'd all along being trying to speak to the ANC Leaders. We want to go home an fight. We don't want to fight UNITA. We don't want this corruption that is happening here - people abusing other people's wives, there is a man whose wife was abused, he was locked up and taken to Quattro. We challenged this thing openly, we even advise this man to speak to Oliver Tambo, we pushed this thing, he met Oliver Tambo and apparently because we are always all the time he speaks with the security. The ANC security around, I think he must have answered that man badly. The Comrade came back, he was very hurt, came back very hurt. In insulted - he actually said, using his words  - he said "I was not expecting anything better from these bata" - he said, "I didn't expect anything better from these bata, because my wife is being abused by these Officers" and he did married him, even now I think that woman is married to that Security chap. I don't know, that woman was not weak, it must be understood, that woman was not weak, some people felt that the system was better, you see, that woman was not weak, some people felt that the system was better than this thing that was happening, that's why some broke easily, you see.

MR SANDI: Did you say Mr Williams you were taken to a tribunal where you were facing certain charges - and that tribunal did not find you guilty of anything. Can you tell the Commission how this tribunal was set up? Who constituted the tribunal?