Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-03-23

MR DE KLERK: Did you receive any orders to kill this man?

MR NGCOBO: It was our own political fight.

MR DE KLERK: Count number 10 ...

CHAIRPERSON: I think it might be a convenient stage to take the adjournment now.  The Committee will adjourn now and resume at two o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS 
ON RESUMPTION

MR DE KLERK: I am ready Mr Chairman.

GOODMAN NGCOBO: (still under oath)

MR DE KLERK: (continued)   Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Ngcobo, now we come with count 10 during your criminal trial, that was a count of attempted murder on the 25th of June 1991 at Ngcwangusheni area, iZingolweni.  You were charged that you unlawfully killed Mgabiselwa Elliot Ndlovu.  Attempted murder, that you attempted to kill him.

MR NGCOBO: I did not do that.  That is a big mistake. I did not touch that person and I even pleaded not guilty during my trial.  I did not know how I was sentenced.  the investigating officer in this case even told me that he knew that I did not commit this crime, but he could do nothing because the case was already in court at Scottburgh.  I did not do anything to this man, and I do not even know where his house is.

MR DE KLERK: Do you know, or did you receive any information of who was involved in that killing, that means who the killer was?

CHAIRPERSON: There was no killer.

MR DE KLERK: Attempted killer?

MR NGCOBO: I heard from Mhlathi Mbambo that he is the one who attacked this man.  They had their own differences which were not politically related.  This was an old man and I do not know anything about his political affiliation.  I only knew him as an inyanga and belonging to the Zion Church.

MR DE KLERK: Then if we move on to count 11, that is a charge of murder.  On the 26th of June 1991, the same area, Ngcwangusheni area, you were charged that you killed Sifiso Moses Mbhele.  You were not convicted on that charge.  Were you any way involved in that case on that incident?

MR NGCOBO: I do not even know that person

MR DE KLERK: Then there was a matter on the 28th of June 1991, at Ndlovinga area, iZingolweni.  There you were charged that you killed Siyabonga Elson Mvundla.  You were also not convicted on that charge.  Were you involved in that incident on the 28th of June 1991?

MR NGCOBO: No.  I do not even know that person.

MR DE KLERK: Count 13 during the criminal trial, that was regarding a matter on the 28th of June 1991, that will be the same day as count 12, also at Ndlovinga area.  You were charged with attempted murder of Thami Norman Gama.  Were you involved in that incident?

MR NGCOBO: Is his surname Gama?  I cannot remember that person.

MR DE KLERK: It was the same date as the previous charge, where you were found not guilty, you were also found not guilty on this charge.  His name was Thami Norman Gama and it also happened at Ndlovinga area on the 28th of June 1991.

MR NGCOBO: No.  I do not remember that person.

MR MALAN: Mr De Klerk, are you on count 14 or 15?

CHAIRPERSON: 13.

MR DE KLERK: 13.  Now we can move over to count 14, that was a charge of murder.  You were convicted on this charge.  On the 12th of July 1991, also at Ndlovinga area, iZingolweni you killed Doda Nxumalo, also known as Doda Nyawazi.

MR NGCOBO: Yes.  I remember that person.

MR DE KLERK: Can you tell the Commission what happened at that incident?

MR NGCOBO: I was with Dodo Mbambo on that day.  I saw this boy crossing the river and knew that he would run away once he saw me.  I then asked Dodo to emerge and talk to him.  Dodo did that.  He was also one of our attackers.

MR DE KLERK: Why do you say that?

MR NGCOBO: He was one of the ringleaders and one of the powerful ones in the ANC.

MR DE KLERK: What happened then?

MR NGCOBO: Dodo talked to him and I had told Dodo to grab hold of him.  He freed himself from Dodo's grip and started to run away.  He outran Dodo, and I then shot him as he was running away.  He fell on the ground and I left him lying there.

MR DE KLERK: Did you receive any orders to kill this person?

MR NGCOBO: No.  I killed him because I regarded him as one of the enemies.  Political enemies.

MR DE KLERK: Count 15 during the criminal trial, was a charge of murder.  You were found not guilty, but the charge was that on the 12th of July 1991 near Bandlana area, iZingolweni you killed Fana Mqadi.  Do you know anything about the killing of  Fana Mqadi?

MR NGCOBO: Fana Mqadi was one of my friends.  We belonged to the same party and there was no reason for me to kill him.  He might have been killed by our enemies but I cannot say by whom.

MR DE KLERK: Then there were two charges, 16 was unlawful possession of a firearm that you were in possession of a 7.65 mm pistol, Baretta without holding a license, is that correct?

MR NGCOBO: That is true.

MR DE KLERK: And at the same time, this is now August 1991 that you were also in possession of ammunition, 13 rounds of ammunition for this firearm.

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: Where did you get this firearm from?

MR NGCOBO: I got the firearm from two people.  It was chairman Zulu and Ngcobo.  I cannot say who was the actual owner or the person who actually gave it to me because they were together when it was given to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what was the name, Zulu what?

MR NGCOBO: Chairman Zulu and Meshack Ngcobo.

MR DE KLERK: Who were they?

MR NGCOBO: They were IFP leaders.  Zulu was a chairman and the other one was his friend.  They were very close to each other.  This other one was also a leader but I do no know what his position was.  You would find him wherever you find Zulu.

MR DE KLERK: Why did you take this firearm?

MR NGCOBO: I took the firearm for self defence.  This is the reason, in fact, why they gave it to me.  I did not use it as I was told, however, and I started doing my own things.  They were my leaders and I did not want them to know what I was doing in their backs.  I was however doing this to build my party.

CHAIRPERSON: When did they give you this firearm?

MR NGCOBO: I cannot remember the year, but it was still in the thick of violence.

MR DE KLERK: Then there was a count 18, also a count of murder.  You were not convicted on this charge, 13 September 1991, at  Ngcwangusheni area, that you killed Thulebona Patrick Nqangale.  Do you know anything about that incident?

MR NGCOBO: I do not know the families in Ngcwangusheni.  I know nothing about that.  The only murders I committed were ones I admitted in court and took the police at the scenes where these murders were committed.  There would be no reason, therefore, for me to admit certain crimes and deny others that I have committed.

MR DE KLERK: Maybe we can just explain that to the Commission quickly.  You were convicted after you made certain admissions to the Police and also took the Police to places where these incidents took place, where you killed the people, is that correct?

MR NGCOBO: I was arrested in possession of a firearm in Merebank.  During their investigation in this matter, I decided to confess to the killings I had committed, and took the police to the scenes of these killings.  Nobody forced me to do this, but I just wanted the families of theses children to know what had happened to their kids.

MR DE KLERK: Then during the trial, you were charged also on a count 19, attempted murder on the 13th of September 1991, in Ngcwangusheni area, iZingolweni, that you there tried to kill Ntombintombi Patricia Cele, do you know anything about that?

MR NGCOBO: I know nothing about that.  I do not remember doing anything to a female because I respect woman a lot.  If I saw that the woman was doing something wrong, I preferred to tell her to leave the area instead of doing anything to her.  I respect woman, irrespective of their political affiliation.