Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1992-05-12

MR PRETORIUS: As you did not have any specific information in regard to a specific group of people that would attack Shell House, in other words you didn't have for the instance the time they would attack Shell House, the specific group that would attack Shell House etc.  The information you had was of a very general nature or that it could do as far as you as a commander is concerned is to put you on the alert that you must intensify the security and be on your alert so that the march is not used as a decoy for an attack?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: The fact that we never had details and the nature of the attack made the situation more intense and it meant we had to treat every group of marchers which passed as a potential group to attack Shell House.

MR PRETORIUS: But it also meant that you could not now shoot at any group of marchers that passed Shell House because you didn't have any information that this particular group would attack Shell House?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: In so far as Lancet Hall is concerned am I correct that you took the word of Mr Africa Khumalo and or other security guards at Lancet Hall that there was an attack on Shell House - on Lancet Hall, at least?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That is correct, that's what we discussed.

MR PRETORIUS: Did you consider the possibility that they were not telling the truth to you?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: No I was not.

MR PRETORIUS: In so far as the other events of the day is concerned that you refer to in particular what other events of the day did you have in mind?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: As I said yesterday we received the report that policemen were shooting at marchers from the T.E.C. building in town.  We received updates of marchers causing havoc through city from our surveillance unit in town.  We received radio reports from 702 and other radios about the destruction caused in town, the warnings for people to stay in their buildings - it was dangerous in town, so I think we had a combination of reports filtering to our office that day.

MR PRETORIUS: In so far as radio reports are concerned are you relying on the radio reports, that is the transcript of the radio reports as between the South African Police members?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: No, I said radio reports, 702 and other radio stations, commercial radio stations.

MR PRETORIUS: All these factors that you mentioned now, they were all general aspects and the same thing applied or the same situation applied as would apply in regard to the information you had.  In other words it would at best cause you to be more alert but it would not be a reason to shoot at a specific group of people?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: No we'd have to make an analysis of every group that passed and then who didn't pose a threat in terms of attack we would not shoot.

MR PRETORIUS: In other words, what the most important aspect would be, would be the nature of the marchers or the attitude or what they did themselves.  That would be the actual convincing or the reasons why you would give the order to shoot?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: It would be a combination of things, you can't look at one thing in isolation, every march would be analysed with all the circumstances prevailing at that given time.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Kruser, the radio reports would have been applicable to all the marchers, your attitude to all the marchers would remain the same, is that correct?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I said you cannot isolate one incident from the other you have to take the combination of all those factors which happened at the time of the incident, you cannot make a separation when you make an analysis of the event.  Each march we had to take into effect all the factors that would be applicable at that given time.  You cannot separate them at any given time.

MR PRETORIUS: Am I correct, if I put it to you that what actually convinced you to shoot was because you perceived these marchers to be different from the other marchers, point one and point two, that you perceived that shots were being fired from them?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: As I said earlier it was a combination of all those factors I mentioned earlier.

MR PRETORIUS: During your evidence before Honourable Judge Nugent at the inquest, you repeatedly stated that your attitude was that you would only shoot if the marchers shoot at you and they pose a threat to you or to Shell House?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think if you read my evidence, will show I say it's a combination of all those factors and I was very insistent at that in the trial.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Kruser, I've read your evidence carefully, I can read a number of passages to you.  For instance on page 2734 where you were asked: "and what would be the sign that an attack was now commenced, how would you know that an attack had commenced?"  "If people started shooting at our security."
Are you saying that if any shooting started they would then fire back?  "If shooting came to our side we would fire back, my lord."

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think you must look at my evidence more deeply.  If anyone shoots that's an isolated incident, I also say in my evidence, that specific time there's a group of factors which I had to take in account.  Someone shooting at me I think I have a right to defend myself, shoot back, that's a different incident itself.  So I think we should look at the incident itself where I explained to the learned Judge all those factors had taken account and when he asks me if someone shoots, I'll shoot back.  That's a separate incident, it doesn't mean that I would not shoot if someone shoots me back if the other factors were not there.  But I'm saying that this specific incident there was group of factors which made me decide that this was an attack being launched at us and I stick to that which I told the learned Judge.

MR PRETORIUS: Now, as I've explained to you and you counsel will correct me if I'm wrong.  You mentioned the other factors as well and in view of the fact that you mentioned the factors, which you've mentioned, the question specifically was asked to you which I read out to you just now and that is, what would be the sign that attack has now commenced and how would you know that an attack had commenced and your reply was "if people started shooting at our security."  Do you stand by that?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: If anyone shoots I'd consider that attack, but the incident itself involved all the other factors I mentioned to the learned Judge.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Kruser, this was with reference to this specific incident and you said with reference to this specific incident that the sign would be when people start shooting at you, then you would fire back?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I remember my evidence to be that there was a group of factors, I think I mentioned to the learned Judge there were a group of factors.  If anyone shot at me I would also consider that to be one of the factors which would include attack.

CHAIRPERSON: You might cut this short, I think what is sought to be obtained from you was this - you had this particular group in front of Shell House, had nobody in that group fired a shot at Shell House would you still have ordered your friends, your people to fire at them?  In other words, what triggered your decision to fire, was it the fact that somebody had fired at you first?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Mr Chairman, this is what I'm trying to explain, I think that the shooting is only one of the factors and this as I understand because if they shot and ran away it would be very different to them shooting and charging towards us.  So...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Shooting and charging towards you?