Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I worked the whole day and the whole night at the basement and I only went out on the following, except when going to the loo.

UNKNOWN: Sorry, Chair, the Interpreter is saying "I left the following day", he says "I left on occasion to go to the toilet."

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: It was pointed out.

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I started working in the morning, the whole day, the whole night.

JUDGE NGCOBO: What time did you leave work?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: The following day in the morning.

JUDGE NGCOBO: But you did go to the loo and come back?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN WYK: Now in respect of the incident that occurred in Jeppe Street, in front of Lancet Hall, did I understand you stand you correctly, you were present when those shots were fired, is that correct?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN WYK: Could you mention to the Committee how many ANC members of security guards were at the entrance of Lancet Hall during that incident?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: On that stage I could say that I saw about 4 or 5 of the guards, but I'm not sure about the exact number.

MR VAN WYK: Do you know their identities?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I can't remember all of them, I do remember one in particular.

MR VAN WYK: And is that the man who fired the warning shot into the air?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN WYK: Did you see any of your colleagues also firing shots, that is now at the entrance of Lancet Hall in Jeppe Street?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I do not remember seeing any one of them, except the one that I've specifically mentioned.

MR VAN WYK: Now this man that you saw firing, do you have any independent recollection as to how many shots he fired?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I do not remember, but I do remember that I saw him pointing his firearm up towards - I think, if I'm not mistaken, he shot only once, but I'm not sure, I can't vouch that he did.

MR VAN WYK: Could it be more that one shot?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I've already said that I do not vouch as to how many times he shot.

MR VAN WYK: Can you mention to the Committee, how many shots did you hear ringing out that morning, at the entrance of Lancet Hall in Jeppe Street whilst you were standing there?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I don't want to lie, I don't remember.  I did hear some gunshots, but I cannot say how many.

MR VAN WYK: Let me clarify one point, do you agree that in respect of the group of Zulus that you referred to that came past that morning, there were no shots fired from them towards you guards, is that correct?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Could you please repeat your question and put it in clearer form please, I don't understand it.

MR VAN WYK: I'm referring to that morning in Jeppe Street, in front of Lancet Hall, whilst you were standing there with your colleagues, when you referred to one of the Zulus that had a speargun forward, do I understand you correctly that at that stage none of these Zulus had firearms and shot in your direction.  Is that correct?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN WYK: Now, at the inquest we heard evidence of two Dlamini brothers who said that they walked past Lancet Hall at the entrance that morning, did you hear their evidence at the inquest?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Unfortunately I did not.

MR VAN WYK: Did your legal representatives bring their evidence under your attention as to what they said at the inquest?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: As I've already explained, that I did not hear any of the evidence and I did not even request my attorneys to tell me as to what was said, because I don't know how it involves me.

MR VAN WYK: Now, you did not request your legal representatives, but did they tell you what these two Dlamini's testified at the inquest, was it brought under your attention?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I wasn't interested to know as to what evidence they tendered before the court, because it concerns me in no way.  ...(no English translation)

MR LAX: Sorry, we couldn't hear your translation, we suddenly got the Zulu in our ears, if you could please translate the answer.

INTERPRETER: Is there a problem with the translation?

MR LAX: Sorry, are you saying there's a problem.

UNKNOWN: Apparently there is a problem.

INTERPRETER: There is - there was a problem, I don't know whether it's fixed, can you hear me?

MR LAX: We can hear you now, yes.  Could you just repeat the answer please.

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: As I've already explained, I wasn't even interested to hear as to what evidence they had tendered before the inquest court, because as far as I'm concerned this doesn't have any particular meaning to me, even if my attorney had told me, I don't think it involves me in any way, I don't even want to know what is going on, because I'm not connected to that, and I'm not interested.

MR VAN WYK: Mr Simelane, we know of two incidents on that specific day that occurred at Lancet Hall.  There was a first incident in Jeppe Street where the two Dlamini's were shot and injured and then we know of a second incident at the garage of Lance Hall in Van Weilleigh Street, where we know that Mr Chonco was shot and he was found lying in close proximity - about 3 metres from the garage door of Lancet Hall, those are the two incidents I'm referring to.  Did you know of any of those two occurring on that day?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I'll just answer you briefly.  I heard about Mr Chonco the following day that there is a certain man who had been shot at close proximity to the gate in Von Weillich Street, and as you put it.  I do understand what you're saying to me, there's absolutely nothing I can say with regard to that matter because if we can follow that matter up, especially the doctor's report and the ballistic experts, it is said that this person had been shot or an AK47 R1 riffle to R5 was used, so that does not involve me at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Just answer, what do you know about the fact that the two Dlamini brothers were shot also that day, what do you know about that?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I know nothing about the two Dlamini brothers.

MR VAN WYK: Mr Simelane, I'm going to put it to you that you're not honest with this Committee, those two Dlamini brothers were shot at that incident in front of Lancet Hall, and both of them were shot and injured from behind.  Have you got any comment on that?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I've already said there's absolutely nothing I can say about it, because I do not even know the people that you're referring to.

MR VAN WYK: I'm going to put it to you, you can do something about it and you can disclose who is the guard that shot the Dlamini's whilst they were running away.

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I've come before this Committee to disclose whatever I know and now you want me to lie and say I know things that I do not.  That's your own version.

MR VAN WYK: Well certainly you will agree that the shot being fired into the air could not have struck the Dlamini's.  Do you agree with that?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN WYK: And I'm going to argue later on, I'm going to put it to the Committee also, that the Dlamini's testified that they were shot by these guards in front of Lancet Hall.  You say you don't know anything about that, is that correct?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: Yes, that is true, I know nothing about that.

MR VAN WYK: Do you have any knowledge of AK47 assault rifles in Lancet Hall on that day?

SMANGALISO PATRICK SIMELANE: I do not know that.

MR VAN WYK: Has it been brought to your attention that after the incidents of that morning a video cameraman entered the building of Lancet Hall and that AK47 cartridges were photographed on the parapet of Lancet Hall?