Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: He explained the situation that he discovered that device and what we have to do is that, because what we had agreed with earlier on in our meeting was we will have to ask him.  What I said to him was; "you see this thing of interrogating him will get me into trouble or problems because if we had already discovered something like this, I don't see why we should be talking any further with him."

MR RICHARD: So your attitude was that there was nothing really to say, you had found this device and that was it, the decision was made?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: That's what is surfacing.

MR RICHARD: Were you angry with Sicelo on being told that he was an informer?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't understand.

MR RICHARD: Were you angry with the deceased?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't have an appropriate word here, I don't have an ideal word to explain this.  I think I was devastated.  I don't think being angry and devastated means the same thing, but I think I was devastated.

CHAIRPERSON: You've told us, I think, that Dube gave you a copy of his statement.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: What I said is that he showed it to me because he had a copy.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And in his statement Dube says the deceased said that this so-called transmitter belonged to his friend's, is that what Dube told you?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: If my memory serves me well he first said it was his friend's, it belonged to his friend.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did he say this to?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: To him, Dube that is, not me.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Dube tell you this?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: During that brief time he did not say that, he told me that afterwards.

MR RICHARD: Were you present at any stage when Sicelo confessed his alleged complicity with the Security Police?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Confessing or confirming to who?

MR RICHARD: Did you hear the deceased at any stage say to anyone within your earshot he worked for the Security Police?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: He did not say that in my presence.

MR RICHARD: So you relied entirely on Mr Dube's words?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I may say so.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Dube tell you on that occasion, during the brief discussion, that he worked for the Security Police?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, he said that.

CHAIRPERSON: During the brief discussion or did he tell you later?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: He told me during that brief discussion.

MR RICHARD: Did Mr Dube make any mention of the missing guns?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: What I heard was the guns were confiscated.

MR RICHARD: When did you hear that?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I did say that he mentioned that to me at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Who mentioned it?  Who mentioned it, Mr Dube or the deceased?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Mr Dube was relaying to me what the deceased had said to him.

ADV SANDI: Is that also during the brief discussion you had with Dube?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Why was it necessary to fetch Mr Zungu and Mr Tshabalala to witness the execution?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: If I give a different answer I will be lying, but first before he told me that he discovered what he discovered, I had already went inside the house to phone them, and when we were leaving it was automatic that we should fetch them or they should be present or they should come.

CHAIRPERSON: It's automatic that you should want two other people to observe you committing murder, is it?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't see any problem there.

MR RICHARD: Now where was your weapon at that stage?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: You mean where?

MR RICHARD: Yes.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: In what way?

MR RICHARD: Where was your weapon, was it in the cupboard, in your pocket?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: It was on my waist where I used to keep it.

MR RICHARD: And where was it that morning?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I always have my weapon, I never leave home without it.

MR RICHARD: So you were happy to have a weapon on your person even though there was the possibility that the police might be aware, through Mr Sicelo Dhlomo, where you were?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I have no problem or I had no problem with that because I was in a fight.  Whether I had it or not, that was my business and against them, fighting against them.  So that does not shake me one bit.

MR RICHARD: So from you say then, when you walked away from your house off to the school and to fetch the other two and onwards towards the tree, you were quite happy to wear this weapon, carry this weapon through the township?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Do you think I carried my gun to show off or to walk pompously about that?  Apartheid did not please us, I don't understand your line of questioning.

CHAIRPERSON: What was this weapon?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: It was  Makarov.

CHAIRPERSON: 9mm automatic, is that so?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, that's the one.

CHAIRPERSON: They are large weapons, aren't they?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: It's not large to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Mm?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: It's not large to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Not large to you?

MR RICHARD: When you reached either Mr Zungu or Mr Tshabalala first, what did you say to them?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: When who reached?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: When you - you walked into the township to go and fetch Mr Zungu and Mr Tshabalala, what did you say to the first one of them that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's get on record who it was.

MR RICHARD: Sorry.  Who did you go and fetch first?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I first went to Sipho.

MR RICHARD: Now you found him at home, what did you tell him?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I told him that we have to meet.

MR RICHARD: Did you explain why you had to meet?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I told him that Sicelo is around and he's with the commander presently.

MR RICHARD: Did you tell Sipho that you and your commander had already decided to execute him?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: No, I did not say that to him.

MR RICHARD: Was there ever any discussion with Sipho about whether it was necessary to execute him or not?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't know as to how you expect me to answer this, because I did not say that to him.

MR RICHARD: I asked you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying the question of execution was never raised with Sipho?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: That's what I said.

MR RICHARD: When Sipho saw what was going to happen, did he say anything?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't understand as to what you want.

MR RICHARD: You took the deceased to this tree and at some point in time Mr Tshabalala must have become aware of what was going to happen, did he ever say anything about whether the deceased should or should not be executed?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: What I said yesterday was, when we left Sipho and Sibongiseni were not told, I did not tell them rather as to what the decision was, and when we got there we did not have any discussion in relation to that, we only executed the action and brought to fruition what we discussed with the commander.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand your evidence, when you got there the deceased was sitting under the tree and you just pulled your pistol from out of your belt and shot him in the top of the head, there was no discussion, nobody had an opportunity to say anything, is that so?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: That's what I said.

MR RICHARD: Then if we go to paragraph 4 at page 10 of the bundle, which reads
"The circumstances that led myself, Sipho Tshabalala, Clive Makhubu and Sibongiseni Zungu to take a decisive decision to eliminate Sicelo Dhlomo were as follows:"
There you say it was a joint decision ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He doesn't say that, it's not his statement, he doesn't say it.

MR RICHARD: The statement ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: Please activate your microphone.