Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-14

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: Although I was not personally there, the person who was the commander there was Sabisi and M R Ndlovu.  All that I did was that if they needed weapons or ammunition, I will supply it to them.  M R Ndlovu had bodyguards who were Caprivians

MR NGUBANE: Okay, let's turn to page 281, paragraph 25.5, there is an incident there which you describe as an attack for Sipho Mdlaba.  Do you recall that incident?  Page 281, at 25.8, just to remind you, you say that Sipho Mdlaba was the chairman of the IFP, Unit 1 North, in Mpumalanga, you were in daily contact with him.  On a certain day, the date on which you can't remember, he asked you to assist in eradicating the UDF from this area.

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: Okay.  There was an area, I'm not sure whether I'm making a mistake, but it was a shack area in (Indistinct), it was called Simani, if I'm not mistaken.  He complained that the people who were responsible for attacking him camped at this area, therefore all the houses there should be destroyed.  I then sent Zombi to clean up the area.  Zombi told me that he will require assistance.  I then spoke to Phumlani, and then they went to assist him.

MR NGUBANE: Right.  At 283 you talk about the kidnapping of two girls.

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: We were assembled at Mamo Ngomo's house.   The leadership, the local leadership... (intervention).

MR NGUBANE: Sorry, before you proceed, Mama Ngomo is that Mrs Kuli?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Right.  Who else were present at that meeting, can you recall?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: It was herself, M R Psychology, myself and Sikumlaba and others.  Mashanesha arrived.  When he arrived we were busy eating and he said, "We are busy eating meat whilst people are dying outside".  The Comrades had kidnapped girls and taken them to One South.
	The fought with RM, they came close to physical blows, and Laba said we should go and investigate.  He left, went back to the township on foot.   We then left for One South.  I delayed a bit, because when I arrived there, I met Babanene who was injured.  Mashanesha and Telewene were exchanging insults.  The Comrades were saying that they had already killed the girls, and these people who were supposed to be on the same side, the IFP, were now fighting.  I then told Baba and Mlaba that we should return home.  I took Baba to the clinic.  	On the following day, in the morning, the police arrived and they told me that they had arrested Sikumlaba and Zombi for burning somebody's house.  I told them that when we left, nobody's house was burning, I didn't see any house burning when I took Baba to the clinic.  I don't know what happened to that case.

MR NGUBANE: Right.  The killing of Khodosa, do you know anything about it, that's on page 284?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: 284?

MR NGUBANE: Hmm.

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: What I can say is that at Unit 4, there was a court.  This court were by old ladies, it is in the UDF area, the old ladies used to be sent there to get their monies.  This Khodosa and the other boys, they used to stab these old ladies, kill some of them.
	On this particular day that I'm referring to, it was said the old ladies are now dying.  Then I realised that if I attacked Mzelas, there are people who are actually there or vending there, selling some things for the old ladies, it will be difficult for us to get hold of this Khodosa, what we should rather do, we should actually enter from the back where these old ladies are getting their pension.  This particular area, it will be on the UDF area.   
	Indeed we entered from behind, where they never envisaged.  What I said to the people that I was with that, "Man, the person that we are looking for here is Khodosa, so there are old papers here and there's all sort of people here, so Khodosa is the one that should be found".  Indeed, when we appeared, then Khodosa and them started shooting.   
	On our side it was difficult for us, and I just heard that "Khodosa is this side, this side", and everybody was actually disregarded by them, so Khodosa is the one who was actually directed.  I wouldn't say that they were not shooting, but the person that we are looking for is Khodosa, and Khodosa had no way out, because we had already closed all the entrances and the exits, and he was actually forced to enter Unit 4, and when he was nearby the church, that Xbile Church, on his way there, there were the specials there who were already barricading there, as we were approaching there from the other direction, we told them to barricade that site, and then there we were already awaiting him there.  	The person that I remember who was there, Bheki Makatini, and that's when they attacked him on the yards of that church, at that Xbile Church.  I couldn't even see this Khodosa, because I was supposed to go back to the shops so that the boys that I was with were actually looting now, and at the shops taken all sorts of things, I had to go back and actually tell them to stop doing such things.  When I arrived, Khodosa was already attacked.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.  Now at page 287, you talk about the attack on wards 8 and 9.  Before you talk about those incidents, did you also target Ward 7, was Ward 7 one of the target areas?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: No, Ward 7, what I can say it didn't matter that night, it wasn't that problematic.  I can't quite remember, because even the attacks that we were launching at Ward 8 and 9, we had the border, I placed the border that they shouldn't cross the ground, when you are attacking you shouldn't cross the ground.
	When they crossed there, what I used to say, what I used to do was to just shoot there on the ground, then they would actually realise that I'm actually implying that they should go back, they mustn't go to Ward 7, and they would retreat.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Ngubane, if I could just ask a question for clarification?  Mr Lethuli, I see from your affidavit here at page 287 you refer to Wards 8 and 9, and in paragraph 25.8.1 you talk about Units 4 and Unit 10, is there a difference between a ward and a unit, or is it the same thing?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: What I can say is that a unit, there are about six units, like 4 for instance will actually be divided and there will be 10, 11, and there will be Unit 3 and Ward 9, Ward 8 and Ward 9, that's how it was demarcated.

CHAIRPERSON: It's still not very clear, but there was a distinction between a unit and a ward?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: Yes, what I can say is that a unit, let's make an example at Unit 4, has Ward 11 and Ward 10, but it is Unit 4.

MR NGUBANE: Now, following from that, Mr... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: The units are divided into wards, or some units into wards?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Now, Mr Lethuli, following from that, is it correct that Ward 1 is referred to as Section A sometimes, as A, Mpumalanga A?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: Indeed, I arrived very late here at Mpumalanga it was already there, I don't quite know, I just know Ward 1, One North and Ward South, that's what I know.

MR NGUBANE: Right, you talk about the attacks on Wards 8 and 9.  Did you at any stage develop a policy to clean up these areas?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: Yes, it's so.

MR NGUBANE: And by cleaning up, is it correct that you intended to eradicate these areas of UDF people, because these areas were UDF areas?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: Yes, indeed.

MR NGUBANE: And at some stage you did in fact attack these areas?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: Yes, indeed.

MR NGUBANE: You were assisted by people known as Vela Mkulu, Vivien Ngubane, Walter Mtelane, Mabane and Dimle, Vusimbeje, and the police, members of the police force, Bege Makatile, Thulani Lala, Kashla Ngubane, Roy Ndlane, Mkise, Jack Gomede, Sikumbsele Zama, Promede and other constables, which you can't remember?

D WORDSWORTH LETHULI: Yes, it is like that.