Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-17

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Ja when they started the investigation after this robbery I saw those guns again.

CHAIRPERSON: Which ones?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: It was the Walter PPK and the 765.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry the?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Walter PPK.

CHAIRPERSON: PPK and were they at the scene of this killing?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what the calibre of the PPK was?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: 765.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MALAN: Can you remember which of these weapons you gave to De Ru?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: I gave him a Baby Brown and about the others I'm not sure.

MR MALAN: You gave him the Baby Brown?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes.

MR MALAN: And you didn't see that again?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No, never.

MR MALAN: Thank you.  Sorry, I'm just going to take this a bit further.  The firearms which you gave to Chris Fouche, where did you hand it over to him, at the police station?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No, the AK47 we went get ourselves at Zonkesizwe and he took it directly from there to the police station.

MR MALAN: Why did you think you'll get money for this because you didn't hand it over to the police, you gave it to Chris who was part of your gang?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No, Chris wasn't supposed to be part of the gang.

MR MALAN: But he knew about everything?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: It was in order to gain information.

MR MALAN: For who?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: For the police.

MR MALAN: From whom, from yourselves?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes from us.

MR MALAN: Political information?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No, with regards to weapons.  They were looking for weapons, firearms.

MR MALAN: And you give him firearms which you got in the township which he would then take to the police station.

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: What else would he have done with them?

MR MALAN: But my question is, you hand over the weapons to him while he's visiting you?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No, when we finished he had to take the firearms to the police station and it had to be written down somewhere so that we could get the remuneration for it.

MR MALAN: But he always got the weapons from him, you never went and took it to the police station?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No, I don't think we ever actually took it to the police station.

MR MALAN: And the weapon which you gave to Mr De Ru where did that happen?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: At my house.

MR MALAN: Also at your house.

CHAIRPERSON: But you never got any remuneration for any of these weapons either so how can you say he must have taken it to the police station?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Because I got my money for the diamonds before from that Vosloo.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hand diamonds over to Vosloo?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Ja, he was from the ...[indistinct] Welkom.

CHAIRPERSON: And he paid you for them?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But Fouche never paid you for the guns?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: No, never.

MR MALAN: May I just ask one question?  Ms de Lange, did you ever speak to Mr de Ru about the firearms and did you ever ask him for the money?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes, we asked him once and he said that certain forms had to be filled in and the amount was coming from the top and it's a long process.

MR MALAN: So he received these weapons from Fouche?

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: Yes he definitely received them because he said it would be about R15 000.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you expect to be paid R15 000 for handing in one AK47, one shotgun and four handguns.

ELIZABETH DE LANGE: That's not the amount that we expected, that's they amount that he told us about.  He told us that is the amount we are going to get.

MR MALAN: Thank you, no further questions.

MR MADASA: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: This concludes this witness, I'm not sure from what you've said whether you have another witness or not?

MR MADASA: No.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Do any of the other parties have witnesses?

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I don't have any witnesses to call at all.

MR COETZEE: Mr Chairman, I don't want to call any witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: So we can commence with argument tomorrow morning?

MR MADASA: Mr Chair, I know this may be disruptive but there are certain aspects that we want to look into and would ask permission to make submissions in writing?

CHAIRPERSON: Can't you address oral argument and if you have any additional submissions that you can do so in writing?  We've heard evidence today, we can hear argument on that evidence tomorrow.

MR MADASA: Mr Chair, we need time, Mr Chair to refer to - to look into certain matters and as far as the law is concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that you can do by submitting written argument.  We want argument tomorrow on the evidence that we have heard today.  Not on the legal effect of that evidence, simply on the value to be attached and inferences to be drawn from it.  Very well.

MR MADASA: Mr Chair, I propose we do all that in writing.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?  Why cannot you - you've heard the evidence, you've been here, you've prepared your client's evidence, why can't you address us on it tomorrow?

MR MADASA: There are matters I want to research on.

CHAIRPERSON: You've told us you want to research on the law, I do not see how you can want to research when I'm asking you merely to address us on the evidence that has been given before us today.

MR MADASA: But that would be piecemeal submission.

CHAIRPERSON: It may well be but it disposes of all argument on the evidence.  What are the views of the other gentlemen?

MR COETZEE: Mr Chairman I'm going to be very brief with regard to argument so I am available tomorrow for argument.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I'm going to be very brief as well.

MR JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, basically I have no argument.

CHAIRPERSON: We expect you to do some homework tonight.  We adjourn till 09H30 tomorrow morning.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, may I just put the record straight and if needs be I'll submit certain documentation?  I don't want to embarrass my learned friends here but Mr Malan was subpoenaed on a request of my learned colleagues here.  I have just spoken briefly to my colleague here and he indicates to me that he doesn't need Mr Malan here any more so as far as at least I am concerned, Mr Malan is not relevant at all.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think it's necessary to quite say he's not relevant at all but I think his presence here is no longer relevant.  You're excused from further attendance and thank you for having made yourself available today - 9.30 tomorrow.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS