Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

ADV DONEN: And you were given an opportunity to stand down to consider your position.  Is that correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

ADV DONEN: And you stood down and you considered your position?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

ADV DONEN: And you were offered an opportunity to proceed with counsel or with legal assistance if you wanted it?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

ADV DONEN: And you elected to carry on being cross-examined without legal representation?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not legal representation as such, I was still a witness of the Attorney General's office.

ADV DONEN: You had no private legal representative protecting your interests?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No.

ADV DONEN: That was your choice?  And you elected to carry on answering these questions that were put to you involving torture and crimes against humanity?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

ADV DONEN: And did you continue to lie?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

ADV DONEN: After that time, did you change the methods of obtaining information that you had used previously?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am not sure while a member of the Anti-terrorist Unit, I still used it.  I have never used that method after leaving the Terrorist Unit.

ADV DONEN: Sorry, I didn't get that.  The issue is really, once you were warned that you had been committing crimes against humanity, did you continue to use the same methods of interrogation that you  had used before?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am not certain Sir, but I never used it after leaving the Security Branch.

ADV DONEN: When did you leave the Security Branch for the record?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I think it was sometime in 1990.

ADV DONEN: Now, was there a specific reason why you were chosen to perform the interrogations that you performed and of which you had given evidence?	Was it because you were very capable of eliciting information by using torture?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, Sir.

ADV DONEN: Was that your role in the Anti-Terrorist Unit?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not necessarily my sole role.

ADV DONEN: What about the other members of the team.  First of all, how many members were there in the team?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Initially six.

ADV DONEN: And who were they and essentially what were their roles?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Lieutenant Liebenberg.

ADV DONEN: He was the Commander.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: The Commander.

ADV DONEN: He would have instructed you and or been aware of the methods that you used.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Correct.

ADV DONEN: And your speciality?  The other members?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Warrant Officer Nel.

ADV DONEN: What was his role?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: He was a member of the Terrorist Detection Unit.

ADV DONEN: Was he an interrogator?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As far as questioning was concerned.

ADV DONEN: And did he assist you in interrogations that you performed?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Verbal interrogations, but not physical abuse that I was aware of.

ADV DONEN: Sorry, are you saying you can't remember whether he assisted you or he did assist you but you weren't aware of it at the time?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As far as my recollection goes, Warrant Officer Nel in my presence, never used physical force against anybody.  I don't think he has it in him.

ADV DONEN: I am asking you, sorry perhaps my question is unclear, I am asking you whether he assisted you while you were using the methods?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, Sir.

ADV DONEN: Who were the other members and what were their roles?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: On most occasions as I have told the Commission before, I used to do it alone, except in the Peter Jacobs, Kotze, myself and Mr Jacobs has told me that he was sure that Nortje was there.   There were other occasions, I cannot remember the other occasions now off hand, Sir.

ADV DONEN: Can we just briefly clear up who the other members were and what their roles were?  I have three so far as I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct).

ADV DONEN: As I understood it, Nortje wasn't a member of the team originally, he was brought from outside.  Is that correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is the evidence I gave here, yes.

ADV DONEN: So the original six, who were they and what were their roles?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Liebenberg, Nel, Benzien, Kotze and Van Zyl.

ADV DONEN: And what were the roles of Kotze and Van Zyl?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: They made up the team of going to look for terrorists and so forth.  As I say on occasion with Peter Jacobs, I am sure that Kotze gave a hand.  Van Zyl was more a fetch and carry type of person, made up numbers.

ADV DONEN: Did any of the others ever assist you in carrying out torture?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Kotze, in the case of Peter Jacobs and I have been through so many incidents now Sir, I cannot remember where any more.

ADV DONEN: These other persons, they must have known your role?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: They must have known their role, yes.

ADV DONEN: And they must have exploited it to get information?

ADV DE JAGER: Not their role, they must have known what you were doing?

ADV DONEN: Mr Benzien's role.

ADV DE JAGER: That was the question.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct, Your Worship.

ADV DONEN: Let me just lastly put to you some of the allegations that Mr Pedro has made which I would like you to confirm if you agree with them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Donen, may I interpose.  Wasn't Mr Benzien, Mr Goosen a member of your team?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Excuse me?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Goosen, wasn't he a member of your team as well?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct Ma'am.  I couldn't remember it right now, but it was mentioned earlier before.

ADV DONEN: Mr Smit, what was his position?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Excuse me?

ADV DONEN: Mr Smit, I think he was the person in charge or a person of a very high rank, I thought I heard Mr ...

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.  Colonel Smit was at a stage the Officer who wrote out the Section or Article 29 detentions.

ADV DONEN: But he must have also been aware of the methods that you were using?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As I have explained to the Commission Sir, I would consider it naive if he did not know.

ADV DONEN: Thank you that is very frank of you.  Let me put to you what Mr Pedro said and it has been put to you previously in a court, but on the previous occasion you denied it, so we would like to get some clarity on this occasion.   And it is in Afrikaans.  He says after the policemen, he is talking about when he met you in August of 1987, he was brought to Culemborg and he says 		"That there the first Security Policemen that arrived there, was Warrant Officer Benzien and Warrant Officer Nortje.	When he arrived it was you and Nortje".

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It may well be, I concede it could have been that, Sir.

ADV DONEN: ".....Benzien immediately told me that I was deep in shit and that they knew everything regarding me".

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I concede.

ADV DONEN: "At the same time a number of other policemen arrived and they moved out of the room and made all kinds of remarks.  I can specifically remember that one said I was now with the Special Branch and they killed people without anybody knowing anything about it".
Is that the kind of tactic and remark that your Unit would make or specifically made?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It is possible, Sir.

ADV DONEN: "Benzien also asked me whether I knew Ashley Kriel.  I said yes and Benzien then told me that it was him who shot him and that I was fortunate that I was still alive today".

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It is possible I used those words, Sir.

ADV DONEN: "After the policemen moved in and out, Benzien undressed me.  I was naked and he handcuffed my arms above my head so that my feet were just barely touching the ground.  I was cuffed to the bars in front of a window.
			During the process whilst he was undressing me, he started slapping me in the face".  
That is while he was hanging on the bars?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No Sir.