Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-07

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: When we went to the farm we did not intend on killing people.  We just wanted weapons.  It just happened, the shooting just happened.  When the woman screamed, as I was grabbing her trying to explain to her.  Max just wanted them to be shocked, he was not aware that he had struck the woman, but our aim was not to shoot this woman.  When the shot, when the gunshot, when I heard the gunshot I became unconscious.  I did not know what to do.

MR SWART: This translation, I cannot understand the Xhosa and you can page back to that if you would like, but this translation says that you wanted to do something to the people, you wanted to shock them in some way.

CHAIRPERSON: Just look at paragraph nine, four, which is written in Xhosa and also tell us whether it is in your handwriting.

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: 94, nine four.

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph nine at the top of page 24.  There is a nine and an "a" and a roman numeral four.

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: I do understand this, but can you please repeat the question?  I would like the question to be repeated.

MR SWART: The second sentence of the translation says,
"I wanted them to be shocked so that they could not have any evidence".
What do you mean by that?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: On this particular day when I grabbed this woman in that window I was trying to explain to her that we just wanted weapons in that house.  She did not understand.  At this time it is when Max shot at her, because as he already said he just wanted this woman to be shocked, but my aims, as the Commission has asked me this question, I did not think at that time, because it happened automatically.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In fact, Mr Swart, I have a problem with the translation myself, because I do not think it actually conveys what the applicant truly intended when you read it, because shock which he has used it as to frighten, really is not the direct translation of the word which he has used.  I would have translated it like this.  The people of the farm died because of the shooting.  I simply wanted to frighten them so that I should not be implicated.  Maybe we should request the translators to read the applicant's  evidence in Xhosa and to let them translate it to us in English.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Will you please do that?

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I just read to the translators so that they can translate.  I think it will be much faster, because they do not have a copy of the application.  The applicant says the following,
"The workers at the farm died through being shot.  This was to shock them so that they do not have any details.  We wanted weapons to protect our own community.  We were forming our own defence unit as being ordered by the ANC as our own people in the community were being killed by the police and by the AZAPO".

MR SWART: So, if you listen to that translation, did you intend any harm to come to these people, because it sounds like that from that translation?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Our intention was not to kill these people.

MR SWART: Are you saying in your application that you wanted them, you wanted to frighten them by shooting at them?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: I am referring to the sound, the bullet sound, not shooting at the people, but the sound so that they could be disturbed and not call the police.

MR SWART: So are you saying that you would have wanted shots to be fired, but not anybody to be hurt?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: No, before they were shot I was talking to this lady as Maxam also tried to speak to her, because we were not, we told this woman that we did not intend to harm anybody, we wanted weapons.  This woman started to struggle, to argue and to scream.  I leapt on her, I jumped on her.  This is what happened.

MR SWART: I cannot understand what the second sentence means and I do not want to belabour the point, but I cannot see that you can tell us either what that sentence means and then I think one has to look at what it actually says.

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: The second sentence, as I was talking to this lady at the window, she started screaming.  When we went there our intention was not to harm anybody.  She screamed,  I held her, because I wanted to talk to her further.  I heard a sound and then I let go of her and I ran into the house.

MR SWART: Can I ask you about the other items which were stolen, the clothing and the video.  You said that you knew the other people who were part of the group who went to the farm?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Yes, I knew them.

MR SWART: And you trusted them, you had been on operations with them before?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Yes, I had worked with some of them in the township.

MR SWART: Neither yourself nor your two co-applicants know anything about the clothing or the video recorder.  Then the Commission may very well think that one of the other people were, took those things.

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Are you talking about a video?  Are you talking about a video?

MR SWART: I am talking about a video recorder, a machine to play videos on.

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: I know about the jewellery box and the briefcase.  I do not know what the others took.  At that time we did not have an opportunity together and see what who took.

MR SWART: But is it not so that you had meetings after that and that you all discussed what had been taken, that you decided what to do?  Everybody excepting the first applicant.

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: We did not all together all gather.  On that day there were a lot of police and helicopters.  We could not stay in the township, we left for Cape Town.  We left some of the Comrades behind.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there ever a time after the incident when you ran away, shortly thereafter or the next day when all of you who had been on the farm, except for applicant number one, gathered to discuss the event?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: No, at the township we could not at the time.  We went to Cape Town.  After that we went to Wocester and Ashton.  The police were raiding our homes.  We could not stay in our homes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, on the occasion when you and your colleagues decided to go to Cape Town to exchange this jewellery for guns, when you took that decision, how many of you were present on that occasion?  How many of you that were on the farm were present on that occasion?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Four.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from applicant number two and yourself, there were two others.  Did they take anything from the farm?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: On our way to Cape Town I was the one with the, I was the one with articles.  I was the one, I was the only one with articles.  Nobody had anything.

MR SWART: I understood from applicant number two's evidence that everybody, besides the first applicant, got together and that you then planned what to do further.  Was that not so?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Yes, because I was with them.  I was with him and two others even when we went to Cape Town on that night.  We then went back the next day.

MR SWART: Well, if there were six or seven then there were still two other people or one other person.  Did you ever get together with this person or people?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Yes, we did, but not to discuss this particular matter.  We were from different parties even though we worked together, like PAYCO, ANC and UDF.  We did not have regular meetings with them.

MR SWART: So you cannot say, it may be that one of the other members took the video recorder and the clothing.

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: I cannot say, because even when we were running away I did not see anyone carrying these things.  It was four of us who, I went with the four to, the other three to Cape Town.  The rest I met with later, but we did not discuss this matter.

MR SWART: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SWART

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Brink.

MR BRINK: Thank you.  When did you leave school?