Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR CURRIN: ... Sefola as well, why didn't you also tryand convert him to become an informant, rather than kill him inthe first instance?  First you try and intimidate him.  Afterall, you said that was the purpose of interrogation and torture. Secondly, to try and convert him to become an informant,  whydidn't you do it?

UNKNOWN: Please try and ask one question at a time. I think the witness has difficulty in answering a whole  paragraph.

MR CURRIN: My apologies.  (Inaudible)  ... as well.  Whydid you not try and intimidate him first into stopping his  activitiesand then in the second instance simultaneously try and persuadehim to be an informant?

MR VAN VUUREN: Somebody who was involved in landmine explosionsand limpet explosions is committed to the cause.  It is impossibleto convince him to stop with his deed.

MR CURRIN: ... previously committed to the cause?

MR VAN VUUREN: Askaris were usually State witnesses whohave already testified in court.   We were not on Vlakplaas; we did not try to recruit them as members of the Security
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Branch.  Our purpose was to put into practice the Government'scounter revolutionary aims.

MR CURRIN: ... activities that Makope and Sefola wereinvolved in?

MR VAN VUUREN: I don't have any other evidence.

MR CURRIN: ... for application you say that Mamasela pretendedto be an ANC terrorist who was sent from abroad and that therewere also other people who had  to meet Sefola.

MR VAN VUUREN: It is usually  the way in which Mr Mamasela acted.  I knew him very well.  It was not a problem for him toinfiltrate a person like Mr Sefola.  If Mr Sefola really was ahigh ANC person, Mr Mamasela would have easily infiltrated him.
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J J VAN VUUREN: s u o

MR CURRIN: (Question inaudible)

MR VAN VUUREN: There was a wire around his foot and anotherwire around his hand, his right hand.  An electrical wire.   Sothere was an electrical wire around his foot and around his hand.

MR CURRIN: And that then resulted in the electric currentgoing right through the whole body?

MR VAN VUUREN: That is correct.

MR CURRIN: And what sort  of  reaction  does one get froma person who is being shocked in that fashion?  What does it
do to the person?

MR VAN VUUREN: Is this when he dies?

MR CURRIN: Both.  When you give a shock that doesn't killand maybe you can tell us also when it does kill?

MR VAN VUUREN: If I remember correctly, when you are givinghim such an electrical shock to kill them, the electrical generatorwas switched on and their bodies convulsed and their eyes closed. If we only switched  it on and off during interrogation, withthe purpose of interrogation, they simply screamed, well, theyonly screamed.

MR CURRIN: With regard to Sefola, your evidence was thatyou'd ascertained that he had been involved in limpet mines, thekilling of a policeman and a number of other terrorist  deeds. Had he ever before been arrested and/or detained as an activist?

MR VAN VUUREN: I cannot remember exactly.  What I canremember is that I drew his file at head office.  It was stillon computer,  they printed it out for me, it was a very thickfile, and in this file it said what he did.
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Sefola was outside of our area, he was in the Eastern Transvaalregion,  so I cannot tell you exactly what all stood in the file,but what it did contain is that he admitted to us subsequentlythat he was the person who gave  instructions, MK members wouldenter the country, go to his home and he would then give theminstructions.  He would analyse the targets.  He would for instancetell them to plant a limpet mine in Checkers because he  wouldsee there is a lot of people there or very little police or whateverthe reason might be.  That's how it worked in his case, yes.

MR CURRIN: ... indicated that he had been involved inmany  previous terrorist activities, but you couldn't ascertainfrom the file whether he had ever been arrested or detained before?

MR VAN VUUREN: I cannot remember whether he had been arrestedpreviously or not during the course of the emergency.

MR CURRIN: When you spoke about accessing informationabout him a moment ago, you said they pulled the information upon  computer and then put it into writing for you.

MR VAN VUUREN: That is correct, that is how it worked at head office.  If I came from a different section, such asfor instance Northern Transvaal branch, he was outside of ourarea, he was in the Eastern Transvaal.  I would then approachthe head office or go to the head office, I would give them hisname and they would then use his name and his area as far as wecould determine it from Maake and Makope and they would then drawthe file from the computer.

MR CURRIN: You said that the file was only in writing.

MR VAN VUUREN: No, that is only Makope's file which wasat our branch.  Our branch did not have a computer.  We only
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used paper files.  That is where I physically worked, at NorthernTransvaal Security Branch.   At head office, however, they keptthe information on computer and I drew  the file from the computerand they then printed it for me.

MR CURRIN: Has that database, has that also been destroyed?

MR VAN VUUREN: In 1989 I left the service of the SecurityPolice.   As far as I have been able to ascertain from ColonelPhilip Loots, and as he told me, there was an instruction fromhead office that all files concerning activists and all the computerinformation had to be destroyed.   This was just immediately beforethe elections and then all of this was destroyed.

MR CURRIN: Did you participate in any way in destroyingfiles?

MR VAN VUUREN: No, at that time I was no longer a memberof the South African Police Force.   I can mention that ColonelLoots might be able to give you more information with regard to the disappearance of files and why they were destroyed.

MR CURRIN: If I understood your evidence correctly, youindicated previously that cells normally consisted of five people.

MR VAN VUUREN: It varied.  It could be five people, itcould be four people, it could be eight people or 10 people. But the point is that a cell was a closed cell in terms of whichit operated.  Such a cell would not know about another cell. The ANC used this to  protect themselves so that if one of themdid happen to be captured or was interrogated, then only thatcell would be able to be destroyed while the other cells wouldbe able to continue with their operations.

MR CURRIN: Did you know that this particular cell onlyconsisted of three people?  How do you know that this cell
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only consisted of three people?

MR VAN VUUREN: It consisted out of more people.  HarrySefola gave their names to us.

MR CURRIN: What happened to the rest of the cell?

MR VAN VUUREN: In our further  application we indicate that we also eliminated these other persons.  It is a  separateapplication, yes.

MR CURRIN: In how many tortures,  other than this particularcase that we are dealing with here, were you personally involvedin?

MR VAN VUUREN: This is very difficult to give an exactamount, but quite a large number.

MR DU PLESSIS: With respect, part of the applications,of this bundle of applications, contains general applicationspertaining to, for instance, interrogations.  The applicants in those instances said that they cannot remember in how manyinterrogations they were involved in and that they apply as ageneral application for amnesty in respect of those interrogations. I am just making that point because  I don't think Mr Currinis aware of that.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible) ... how many instances was he personallyinvolved?

MR CURRIN: Personally involved in approximately.  Wasit something that happened every week, were there hundreds?