Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Could you just repeat the answer you have givenplease and speak loud.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I said I knew Boetie.  And I knewhim as a Municipal Policeman.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: We have listened to applicants yesterday andtoday and none of them ever mentioned the involvement of any otherpolice officers other than the SAPs with the 3 million gang. You are the first person.  Do you know why others did not mentionthe other Police Force?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: May you please repeat your question?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Just a moment, Mr Chairman.  I am trying toget the channel correctly here.   I will repeat that question. You are the first person today to tell us about involvement ofother Police Force other than the SAPs.   Do you understand that?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, I am listening.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you perhaps know the reason why other applicantsdid not mention the other Police Forces?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, I don't know.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What involvement did the deceased have withthe 3 million gang?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: What I want the Committee to understandis that I didn't say Boetie was a member of the 3 million gang,but I said because we had lost faith in the police here at Maokengand the way in which he acted, that was what gave us the impressionthat he was also one of them according to how he acted, becauseI had no differences with him and the way he approached me inthe Tavern is also the fact that gave me that impression thatmaybe he also has a part that he played in this 3 million gang'sactivities.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Before you could stab him, had you establishedanything against him to conclude your mistrust about him?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: As I explained that the police atMaokeng operated in an unfair way.  We had nothing against Boetie,or we hadn't proven anything against him or his road(?), but weonly used our minds as people regarding the situation that prevailedin Maokeng.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Would I be correct to state that you murderedthis man because he manhandled you in the shop?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, it is not like that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Why was he then murdered?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I have explained, Sir, that the reasonthat caused him to die is that - as I explained that the policewere taking part in many perpetrations here at Maokeng.  We didn'tknow all of the policemen who took part in this but accordingto how we saw things happening, the things were happening in frontof our eyes and this is what caused us to lose faith in the police. Because one day whilst we were in town it happened that the 3million gang attacked us, we were from the court, and membersof this gang, when we tried to defend ourselves against them,they ran to the police station and when they ran to the policestation the other policemen came out and these members of thegang had knives in their hands and the police came to us.  Andthen we ran into town.  That's one of the things which gave usthe impression that the police is really supporting this gang.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The deceased was a member of the, if I can callthem, Municipality Police.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, it is like that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is that not so?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, it is like that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: At any of the incidents whereat you saw thepolice assisting or being involved with the 3 million gang, didyou ever see members of the Municipality Police?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, I won't emphasise that becauseI don't know all of them, I mean the Municipal Police.  I takethem all as policemen.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Don't the SAPs and the Municipality Police,don't they use different uniforms?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, they are using different uniforms,but that time I think they were all using blue uniforms that werethe same as the SAP's.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Before they could change(?), did you ever seethem in their uniform participating on behalf of the 3 milliongang?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, I hadn't seen them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The reason why I am asking you this question. I have a very difficult problem in appreciating the reason whyyou killed this man.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: As I have explained, Sir, becauseof the situation that was reigning in Maokeng and the police activitiesin Maokeng we had already lost faith in the police because theyused to harass us and their activities are the ones which causedus to lose faith in them totally.  That is why the deceased endedup dying because we had lost faith in them, because in the wayhe approached us I came to think that maybe he was one of thepolice who worked together with this gang.  Maybe his aim wasto kill him, no one would know.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Would it then be correct to state that you actedon a mere suspicion?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, it is true, as I have alreadyexplained.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How many of you were present when the deceasedwas stabbed?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: There was three of us.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Could you mention names?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who are they?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: It was Robert Toa(?), William Letaboand myself Gubuwe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The other two you have mentioned, were theyconvicted?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, we were convicted at the SupremeCourt in Bloemfontein and they made an appeal and they were releasedon appeal.  Now Robert Toa, who was discharged, I am sorry, RobertToa was discharged before the case was finished and William wasreleased on appeal.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You testified that the deceased produced a gunin the shop.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I want to clarify this before theCommittee.  I didn't talk about the shop.  It was in the shebeen,that is Jackie's Tavern.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You testified that he produced a gun againstyou in the Tavern.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.  That was when Comrade Mpondotook us apart.  He drew a gun thereafter.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You left and went to a house and he came andentered the neighbouring house.  He came again and produced thegun.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, it is true.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Then he went past you still with the gun inhis hand.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In what position was he holding this gun whenhe was from the neighbouring house?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: He had pointed it upwards.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Will I be correct if I say that at no stagewhen he was moving from the neighbouring house, at no stage didhe ever point this gun towards you.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Do you mean when he came from thehouse next door?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, he couldn't see me because wewere hiding.  It was dark in that house where we were in, so hecouldn't see me.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You say it was dark.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.  It was at night.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was he moving in the light?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, because there were lights inthose streets.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When he produced this gun for the first timeagainst you in the Tavern, did he say anything to you?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, he didn't say anything there. He pulled me by my clothes and I asked him what is happeningand he never answered me, and then (indistinct) Mpondo appearedand took us apart.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you ever have any trouble with him in thepast?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, not at all.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Gubuwe, your application form has actuallynot been fully completed as it should have been in terms of theAct.  If you had to look at page 4 of your application.  You seethat question 10 has not been completed, 10(a) and 10(b) and therest of what follows thereafter.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, I am aware, Sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Why didn't you complete this?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I had problems because it was writtenin Afrikaans and I don't know Afrikaans.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Let's see whether we can assist you as brieflyas possible.  Question 10(a), which you did not complete, asksyou to mention the political objectives which you wanted to achieve.