Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-14

CHAIRPERSON: Did they stop you from going back to Pretoria, these witches?  Did they hinder your quest for freedom?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes, because these witches and the traditional leaders, who were also involved in ritual murder cases, were not really in line with the regaining of the political freedom of taking Venda back to the central government, they were the ones who were very influential.

CHAIRPERSON: On who?  Who did they influence?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: The traditional leaders were chosen and they were under the then okay central government.

CHAIRPERSON: So you say they were involved with each other with the then Pretoria Government, to prevent a reincorporation?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now we're getting somewhere.  Now how did you people reason that by getting rid of the witches, that you route to Pretoria would be made easier?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Actually we wanted that as all those activities were taking place, it will be in the onus of those central government people that this independent homeland was ungovernable.  Therefore ...

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  Do I understand you correctly, that the powers that be in Venda at the time could only govern effectively with the assistance of the witches?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes, that was - not that they will govern well with the assistance of the witches, but they themselves, the people who were practising witchcraft were having links with these people who were leading.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.  Could they - now getting rid of them, as I understand your argument, would make the country ungovernable, getting rid of the witches?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these witches important for the government at the time in Venda to control Venda?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well that is why I'm trying to indicate that these people who were alleged to be witches and who were involved in ritual murders, were linked with each other.  That is why we would be able to say those who were involved in witchcraft were also traditional leaders and they were the ones who were leading in those days.

CHAIRPERSON: Was their relationship or their linkage important for controlling Venda and its people?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes, there was that link.

CHAIRPERSON: As the Pretoria regime wanted at the time?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Sorry, could you just repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: As the Pretoria regime of the time wanted, or required?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Are you talking about wanting witches, or witchcraft practising?

CHAIRPERSON: Wanting the control of Venda, the status quo to remain.

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Your traditional leader was your headman, wasn't it?  Your chief.

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: He was a man.

ADV DE JAGER: So Adam was your traditional leader in your village, is that correct?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes, it is.

ADV DE JAGER: He wasn't involved with witches?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well I'm not too sure about that.

ADV DE JAGER: But he gave them the trek pass.

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So if there was a relationship between them in controlling the government as the Nationalist Government of Pretoria wanted, why would he give the trek pass?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: The situation in those days, when we were telling that they should evict those people they understood it to have been the fact that people had to do what was expected of them from the people.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.

MR NDOU: Is there anything else that you want to add?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: No.

MR NDOU: That is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	This youth congress that you referred to, who was the chairman of that?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well I can't remember exactly how we appointed the leaders in the youth congress.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't ask how you did it, we ask who?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: The chairperson was - that is why I'm saying I've forgotten.  Maybe I should consult and find out exactly who the chairperson was, because I didn't expect this line of questioning regarding the members of the committee.

ADV DE JAGER: But he was your leader.  Who was your leader at that stage?  Because I would presume that the leader would be the chairperson.

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: It is true.

ADV DE JAGER: Now who was the leader?  Can't you remember?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well that is what I am saying, I have forgotten the composition of the leadership in the Committee.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Was it one of the person now making application for amnesty, or can't you remember that either?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: It's not one of the applicants.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Someone else.

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Mm.

MR VAN RENSBURG: So can you - what was the name of this youth congress, this organisation that you belonged to?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Mabunga Youth Congress.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And on which date were you elected as a Marshall of this congress?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: I can't remember the date really.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg, your instructions are to dispute the existence of this youth congress?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, indeed, Mr Chairman.  Thank you.
	You can't remember the date.  Was it before or after Mr Nelson Mandela was released from prison?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: It was after the release of Mr Mandela.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And where was this meeting held that formed this youth congress?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: In the primary, which was in our vicinity, or in our area.

CHAIRPERSON: Primary what?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Mabunga(?) Primary School.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you - what were your links with the ANC, this youth congress' links with the ANC?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: It was - well we didn't really have that direct link with the national ANC, we were not really fully fledged members of the ANC.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Let me put it to you this way, you had no links with the ANC.

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: In which way?

MR VAN RENSBURG: The congress, the Mabunga Youth Congress had no links with the ANC, no formal links with the ANC.

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Yes, it is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it an alliance and therefore no formal links?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: When we formed the Youth Congress, the main aim was to have a - when the congress was formed the main aim that was that it will be integrated in the ANC structure.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember the organisation called the South African Youth Congress, SAYCO?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: No, I don't know that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you have any links with any other political organisation?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well the link that I had was that of the other youth congresses in other regions or other countries.

MR VAN RENSBURG: For instance?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: For instance, if there was another country in which we were invited to have the formation of the youth congress.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, give us the names of those youth congresses that you had links, or alliance with.

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Matanda Youth Congress.  M-A-T-A-N-D-A Youth Congress.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And were you democratically yourself, you were democratically elected as a Marshall.  So the people took a vote to appoint you to that position?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: When I was appointed I was an additional member who, I mean to those who were democratically elected.  That is why I was merely an assistant.

ADV DE JAGER: So you yourself weren't elected, you were sort of coopted as an additional member?

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: I was an assistant just like advice, by the people who were already in the Committee.  Sort of yes, coopted.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.  I put it to you that in your evidence-in-chief you specifically testified that you were elected to be an assistant or a marshal.

DAVID NEMAKHAVANI: Well I'm trying to demonstrate that I was coopted by those people who were already members.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Man, were you elected or appointed?  It's an easy question.

CHAIRPERSON: He's just saying that he was coopted.  Cooption is not elected or appointed.