Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MR HUGO: I agree with you Mr Chairman.  While we are talking about this, you will remember that I said in chambers, Mr Radebe is available for the matter which is being discussed down here and the planning was not that he would be a witness in this matter, but I have told you that it is our approach that if we can assist to clear up things which are not clear in this whole probe process, we will assist you as far as possible.  Mr Radebe is here, if you want to listen to his evidence, we will help as far as possible on one condition that Mr Radebe will start testifying in his own application tomorrow morning and if he is not in a position to continue with his application tomorrow morning, this will mean that that hearing will have to be postponed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we take note of that.  Mr Ramawele, what is your client's position in regard to Mr Radebe?  Has he got any particular view on whether Mr Radebe's evidence is relevant or not?

MR RAMAWELE: Mr Chairman, the position of my client is that Mr Radebe went into Chesterville on foot with the other members and that he was at the bridge, and therefore his position is that Mr Nofomela was at the bridge with Bosigo and other members and therefore he will still continue to maintain that Radebe went in there on foot and whilst he was waiting at the bridge with other members, including Mr de Kock.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the submission, is the submission that Mr Radebe's evidence would be relevant to the application or not?

MR RAMAWELE: I think from the evidence that has been adduced at this point in time, it appears to me that it is relevant because he was there and, he was there and he probably knows who are the members who were at the bridge and I think it is relevant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Cornelius, have you got any submissions?

MR CORNELIUS: I've got no submissions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shezi, is the evidence of Mr Radebe relevant for your purposes?

MR SHEZI: That is so Mr Chairperson, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: My submission is that I think to come to a clear understanding of exactly what took place there,  Mr Radebe's testimony would in fact be relevant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo, won't you please call Mr Radebe?  Mr Radebe, please switch on the microphone in front of you and please will you stand, I want to administer the oath to you.  Can you give your full names for the record?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Magopa Simon Radebe.

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.  Mr Hugo, would you please present his evidence?

MR HUGO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR HUGO: Mr Radebe, you have already been told that you are an implicated party in this amnesty application, is that correct?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Mr Radebe, regarding your own application, you did not apply for amnesty?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And you have consulted with your legal representative regarding your amnesty application and on your insistence and as well as obtaining legal advice, it was decided that you did not commit an offence and did not need to apply for amnesty?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: But you have applied for amnesty regarding many more incidents?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Mr Radebe, do you want to look at the documents placed in front of you, that is Bundle 2, from page 19 up to page 21, do you have it in front of you?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct, I have it with me.

MR HUGO: In the affidavit and this has been handed in, during the inquest which was held after this incident, which became known as the Chesterville incident?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: You went through this with your legal representative, is that correct?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: You are satisfied that this is a true version of the facts as it happened?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And you are still standing by what is contained in this document?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: One other aspect that you did not address is when this incident happened and you went back to the C R Swart building, did you report back to anybody else or did you go back to the sleeping quarters?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I went to report to someone.

MR HUGO: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hugo.

ADV DE JAGER: To whom did he report back?

MR HUGO: To whom did you report back, the interpretation did not come through properly, I am sorry.  Can you tell me to whom you reported back?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I reported back to Sgt Willie Nortje.

MR HUGO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   Thank you Mr Hugo.  Mr Ramawele, questions?

MR RAMAWELE: Mr Chairman, can I just borrow one of these statements of Mr Radebe.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it is in the Supplementary Bundle, haven't you got that?

MR RAMAWELE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got one now?

MR RAMAWELE: Yes, I've got, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR RAMAWELE: Mr Radebe, you were also part of the group that came to Durban, is that so?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: With whom did you come to Durban?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: The whole of Vlakplaas came down.

MR RAMAWELE: Upon your arrival here in Durban, what was the first thing that you did?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: We went to drop our goods at the base where we would be accommodated.

MR RAMAWELE: So from Vlakplaas you went directly to the army base?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: No, I said at the C R Swart base where we were accommodated.   You asked me the first thing I did when I arrived in Durban, I am telling you exactly what happened when I arrived here.

MR RAMAWELE: Okay.   And did you bring along the vehicle that you normally used?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Was that a kombi?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: In respect of this particular incident, were you in charge of any people at any stage in respect of this incident?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: Who gave you the instruction?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: It was Sgt Willie Nortje, Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: What precisely, what instruction did he give you?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Which instructions are you talking about sir, about the people who were supposed to be in the kombi or the trip to Chesterville, what are you referring to?

MR RAMAWELE: I am referring to the going to Chesterville.

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Yes, he gave me instructions.  He said I should go with Sgt Monyoa, Sgt Mogadi, myself Sgt M.S. Radebe, Cons M.A. Seleka, Cons Chris Magopa who was an askari, Thabo Magagi who was also an askari and a female Cons Shosha.

MR RAMAWELE: So you, all these people were they travelling in the kombi in which you were the driver?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: When you left for Chesterville, were you the only people from Vlakplaas who went to Chesterville in that kombi?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Yes, in the kombi, yes.

MR RAMAWELE: There were no other members from Vlakplaas following you?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: There were white members who were following us, Warrant Officer Vermeulen, Warrant Officer Frank McCarter, Sgt Nortje, Sgt Steve Bosch, if I still remember quite well.  If there was another car, I did not see it, I only remember the ones that I have just mentioned.

MR RAMAWELE: At the time when Sgt Nortje gave you the instruction to get into Chesterville, where was Mr de Kock?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Mr de Kock was not with us, he was at the barracks at C R Swart.

MR RAMAWELE: And then what precisely, what was the instruction about precisely, what were you supposed to do in Chesterville?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: We were supposed to infiltrate the comrades.