Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

CHAIRPERSON: That is the question, would you have reacted on that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: If my Brigadier was present I would have accepted it yes, otherwise not.

MR MALAN: Can I just ask the following question, you said Mr Le Roux was a Lieutenant?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

MR MALAN: You also said that that is the lowest rank except for a Candidate Officer?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: So it is more or less an ordinary soldier within the Ystergarde structure in terms of level?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

MR MALAN: Now the question that I'm asking is, not if you are a Commandant but when you are a Lieutenant and Barnard comes to you and tells you General Nico Prinsloo says we must do it, it's an order we must plant bombs, my question to you is do you think it is a reasonable action of Mr Le Roux to believe Barnard and to have listened to him?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes I would assume that in such a war situation, yes.

MR MALAN: No I don't understand you because if there's a war situation, there's not a war but there's the possibility that a war can begin now and I think one would think a few times before you obey such an order.  I think if it was not in a war situation and he tells you General Prinsloo say we must, would you not then have believed it easier?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes I will accept it, the reason why you say General Prinsloo because General Prinsloo was part of the Generals in staff and he had something to do with the Ystergarde and then the Brigadier of the Ystergarde because the Ystergarde does not have a General.  The way we understood it was that Nico Prinsloo stood in for the, or represented the Ystergarde in the presence of the Brigadier Leon Van der Merwe.

MR MALAN: Let me ask the question in a more simple way.  It is about impressions and I do not want to argue with you but you heard that Mr Le Roux said that he received an order, Barnard told him that we are going to plant bombs, Prinsloo says that we must place these bombs in the centre of town.  The question is, given Le Roux's situation and position, do you think it was reasonable for him to accept it and obey it?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes I think so.

MR MALAN: Why do you say that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Because he was loyal towards his officer.

MR MALAN: But did you not just say that you did not know if Barnard was an officer or not?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No but if he moved with the leader and was part of the Generals in staff he had to have a higher rank.

MR MALAN: Did he move with them?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes he always did, most of the time he did, he never really moved amongst people of our rank.

ADV BOSMAN: Tell me, did the people in general wear uniform when they moved around with the leader etc?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Where there were open meetings we always wore our uniforms.

ADV BOSMAN: Were there any rank insignia, could you see what the rank of the person was?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes Mr Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: And Mr Barnard in general, was he the only person who did not have a uniform on?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I do not think he like it.  It seems to me as if he did not like the idea that people know who he is and to wear a uniform because he had long hair and the way I saw it, if you are in uniform then your hair has to be short and neat and he did not want to cut his hair.

ADV BOSMAN: Did he have another job besides his involvement with the AWB?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No as far as I know Mr Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: I see from the questions that were put by the Committee that you always refer to an open meeting.  Were instructions ever given to the Ystergarde at these open meetings?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: How do you mean open meetings, do you mean where the public is present, like in a Town Hall.  Could you just please put the question again?

MS VAN DER WALT: Would certain instructions then be given to the Ystergarde?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: By who?

MS VAN DER WALT: By their commanding officers?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you have any knowledge of any call up instructions that you would have received?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who said that there will be call up instructions?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: After the closed meeting Brigadier Van den Heever, who was known as the fighting Colonel in the special forces, he would gather the people under a tree, there were various Wen Kommando officers from the AWB and he then said that the Generals in staff decided that the people must move up on the 15th of April to Ventersdorp.  He did not say Ventersdorp, he said the Western Transvaal.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did they have to move?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: He said or he talked about protection, security, that people must leave their houses, they must come with caravans, power generators or anything that could help them establish themselves within the Western Transvaal because if we do not get a Volkstaat then there will be war.

MS VAN DER WALT: And was mention made of the Defence Force in Potchefstroom that would assist the AWB?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes at one stage he did talk or say that we must not worry, because there's enough support from the Defence Force and the police and there was another person, but we'll get to that later and that 40 000 men would march up and as we march up to the Western Transvaal he would add, that the things that we must bring with, for example caravans, power generators etc we must bring, like what they call affirmative shopping, in other words you must go and buy but not pay because they cannot claim it back from you and as you move through and for example if you do not have enough money for petrol and you encounter problems while taking this petrol, you can just shoot your way through or out of the situation in order for no one else to come into the Western Transvaal.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you just put it clearly to us, is this now General Van den Heever who gave these instructions?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Brigadier Van den Heever, yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Thanks.

ADV GCABASHE: And was this instruction given strictly to the officers who remained after the closed meeting.

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, that is what he told the officers after that closed meeting.

ADV GCABASHE: So to just help me understand this, if you were coming up from Durban with your family or from Senegal with your family, essentially they were saying bring everybody and this affirmative shopping entailed getting free petrol or whatever all the way up to the Western Transvaal.  Just realistically, how was this supposed to work, how did you understand this?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I did not really list to what he said because it is not the way in which I do things and just taking things without paying for it.

MS VAN DER WALT: I see that in your application on page 130, paragraph 15 that you say that the meeting was addressed by Etsabeth that the military will assist the AWB.  You now gave evidence that it was Chris Van den Heever?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Chris Van den Heever conveyed the message from General Etsabeth because he was present when Etsabeth said this because this meeting which he had under the tree was after that closed meeting.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did General Etsabeth address the closed meeting and say that the Potchefstroom Defence Force would support the AWB?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes he did say that and he mentioned the 40 000 men or soldiers who would take part in this and that the Defence Force would be part of this.  He said that they said that we will be provided with ratels and other military vehicles, weapons etc.