Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-04

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I wouldn't tell him the truth about the identity of all the members of the security police.

ADV MEMANI: Would you take him to a place where he would be able to identify other members of the security police that you were working with?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I wouldn't take him to that kind of a place because it will be unsafe.  If you don't trust him, it may happen that you think he will give you information and then he may transfer that information to the members of a certain organisation, then they would use that information to attack you or attack some members of the police security, so I would not tell him of their true identity and the addresses of other members of the security police.

ADV MEMANI: So, if members of the Northern - of the security police Northern Transvaal did not trust you, they would not have introduced you to other members of the security police in the Northern Transvaal?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, that is the police of the security branch.  If you are not trusted they would not expose you to all the structures - the identity of some members of the security police, so that you may not be able to identify them later.

ADV MEMANI: Could that be the reason why instead of you being stationed at a place where you'd observe other members of the security police, you were taken to Mamelodi police station at the office referred to as "horse".

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It might be one of the reasons that - how I work and they were testing my trust before they can expose me to some members of the security police.  They would test you in many ways.

ADV MEMANI: Could that also be the reason why you worked only with Selahla and Bokaba?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That may be true.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I don't want to object unnecessarily but it seems to me that the leading of the evidence of my learned friend here in re-examination, is exceeding the bounds but I'm in your hands.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis, you cross-examined at great length about all these aspects, I think this certainly arises from it.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Ngo, was it also your evidence that before you became trusted by the  Bloemfontein security branch, you worked with Erasmus and another person only?  I cannot recall who you said the ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Memani, I think the objection really was against leading questions and so, please try and frame your questions so that you wouldn't lead the witness in a way that he should answer yes or no on a question that you've put the facts to him actually.

ADV MEMANI: It seems to me Mr Chairman, that the nature of the questions is such that I must lead, you cannot put it otherwise.
	Now Mr Ngo, before you became - initially when you were an informer with the security branch, were you from the onset introduced to many of the members of the security branch in Bloemfontein?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, Sir.

ADV MEMANI: After how long were you introduced to members of the security branch in Bloemfontein?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I too a long time, I think it's about a year.  The way they were receiving information and that the things I was telling them was the truth when they investigated thereafter, so those were the conditions.

ADV MEMANI: Those are my questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman, in respect of the evidence of Colonel Loots and Captain Bokaba, I've discussed it with my learned colleagues here and we are all in agreement that nobody has an objection against the evidence being led now, so as to make the proceedings easier.  And with your leave I will then ask permission to call Colonel Loots.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it should be placed on record that counsel discussed this with us in the light of the fact that we will be going onto another hearing, Motsamai's, which is going to be run together with this that he can dispose of these witnesses now rather than make wait till the end.  It was agreed subject to the reservation that should further evidence emerge at any stage during the hearing that necessitated their recall, they would be make available.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes Mr Chairman, we agree exactly with that.  May I beg leave to call Colonel Loots?  Thank you.   He will give evidence in Afrikaans Mr Chairman.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Phillipus Johannes Cornelius Loots.

INTERPRETER: The speakers mike is not on.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: (sworn states)

MR DU PLESSIS: May I proceed Mr Chairman?  Thank you.
	Colonel, I'm going to question you in Afrikaans and you are welcome to answer in Afrikaans as well.  Colonel, would you please shortly explain to the Committee when you were at the security branch in the Northern Transvaal and in which capacity.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: From December 1980 until end of 1989.  I was originally part of unit A as was explained to you yesterday.  It was the unit that worked with White and Coloured affairs and approximately a year after that, that was then '81, the beginning of '82 I was transferred to unit B where I took over as the unit commander of unit B which was concerned with Black affairs.  That was up until my transfer till the intelligence unit at the end of '89.

MR DU PLESSIS: Colonel, just to be completely certain, exactly when were you in unit B, for which period of time?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: It was end of '81, start of '82 up until the end of '89.

MR DU PLESSIS: All right.  Colonel, at the beginning of 1990, were you still there?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: No, I had already been transferred at that stage to the - from the security branch to the intelligence unit.

MR DU PLESSIS: Colonel, would you shortly explain - you said what was unit A and what B was, what was unit C?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: It was the unit that worked with terrorist organisations.

MR DU PLESSIS: And unit C was divided in various divisions, is that correct?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: To explain this to the Committee and to make it clear to them with regards to evidence that was given earlier on, C1 was Vlakplaas and it later became C10, is that correct?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Yes, that's correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And unit D?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Unit D worked with selections, not only selections with regard to members of the security branch but also selections of private individuals who were in key positions nationally.  They were selected to degrees, it was "very secret" or just "secret".

MR DU PLESSIS: And unit E?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Unit E was the labour - can we just get some sort of an indication?

MR DU PLESSIS: Please could you slow down a bit.  Unit E?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: It was the unit that worked with labour issues.

MR DU PLESSIS: All right Colonel, let's start with unit B.  How many members did unit B have?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: White and Black members - it depended either, it's something between 18 and 23 came and went.

MR DU PLESSIS: And in 1986/87, that is when - according to the evidence of Mr Ngo, he was involved in Mamelodi.  Who were members of unit B at that stage that you can remember?