Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-22

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Chairman, I'm aware of the constraints here, there is, on time.  There is considerable evidence that was available at the inquest into the assassination of Lubowski in Namibia to attempt to deal with this witness's answers on Lubowski, I would have to go into that evidence in some detail but it would appear that this is not an appropriate time to do that, so I'm not accepting his answers, but on the other hand I don't think that I should cross-examine him in the way that would be required to deal with the issue properly.

CHAIRPERSON: We understand it and appreciate your approach as well.  Thank you Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now you would have heard when Adv Bizos was cross-examining Gen Webb, that he read out sixteen names of people who, according to the various statements and documents before the Commission, appeared to have been targeted by the CCB.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I've heard him ...(indistinct)

MR KAHANOVITZ: Ja, alright.  Now Frank Chikane you in fact referred to in your evidence already and what was your version on that?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I am not aware of the project on Frank Chikane.

MR LAX: Can I just ask a question?  It's directed partly at you as well Mr Kahanovitz, are you going cover whether there was a project on the person or whether they were monitored, ...(indistinct) both of them, in a sense?  Can I just ask this question?  You would have been aware of every person that would have been monitored as Regional Manager, you would have known which of your members were monitoring whoever?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR LAX: Because you would have had to manage them doing that?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That's right.

MR LAX: So no monitoring would have taken place without your knowledge?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR LAX: Although your authority might not necessarily have been required, for example if the co-ordinator told someone to do it, you would know they were doing it, but your specific authority wouldn't be required?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I believe that the co-ordinator had to inform me if he asked any of my members in the region to do such a thing.

MR LAX: You see what I don't want to do is have to come back each time and say:  "Well, you may not have known about a project about Frank Chikane, but were you aware he was being monitored?", for example, so perhaps in answering Mr Kahanovitz's questions, you could bear that in mind and just indicate which of the two, or both, then we'll save a lot of time.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Alright.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright, the Rev Chikane, the evidence that we have before us from the various statements, Mr Botha says he was being monitored, Mr Barnard says there was a plan to murder him.  Now what is your version?   Firstly, do you agree that he was being monitored by Region 6?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Chairperson, there were names from the Intelligence structure through the co-ordinator brought to us and it was given to members to monitor.  I'm afraid that I say - I'm afraid I say no or yes and I'm proved wrong in that I don't have a file in front of me that I can consult.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, we understand that.  Either you can remember something and you're prepared to say yes or no, or if you can't remember, then you must just say what the situation is.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I cannot remember.  I can't remember that Mr Frank Chikane was monitored.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  You're therefore obviously not in a position to dispute either Botha or Barnard's evidence?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Roland White we've already dealt with.  Then Hamutenya we've dealt with.  Lubowski we haven't really dealt with, but we can't.  Trevor Tutu ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just on - you're aware Lubowski was monitored in the country though?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But your version is that that monitoring had nothing to do with any other additional plans?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yet there's no suggestion that the CCB was monitoring anybody purely for the purposes of intelligence gathering, that Region 6 monitored people purely to gather intelligence, correct.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman in fact that was the evidence of Gen Webb that Lubowski was purely monitored for information purposes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And I'm aware that that's the version of Gen Webb.  I'm putting it to the witness that there has been considerable evidence to the effect from the operatives that Region 6 did not exist to gather intelligence purely for the sake of intelligence gathering.  It was not an intelligence gathering operation.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So one can therefore infer that if Region 6 was gathering information about Lubowski, that intelligence was intended to be used for some offensive purpose.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I wouldn't know.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  Trevor Tutu, the Bishop's son.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: What about him?

CHAIRPERSON: He's questions - this is this list - what Mr Kahanovitz wants to know is whether there was any, either - is it restricted to Region 6 or any CCB involvement relating to those people be it monitoring or projects?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, not that I'm aware of.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  Laurie Nathan, another End Conscription Campaign person.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Cannot remember.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You can't remember whether he was to be monitored?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You can't remember.  Alright.  Jay Naidoo of Cosatu.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You can't remember.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I can't remember.

MR KAHANOVITZ: In other words it could be, but on the other hand you can't remember?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I can only remember that while Mr Naidoo was still involved with Cosatu he was at one stage - they used hotels in Hillbrow and information was conveyed to the National Intelligence Agency from our ground level to make them aware of it, but that was the organisation Cosatu.

MR KAHANOVITZ: An attorney in the Western Cape by the name of Essa Moosa.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You don't recall?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Andrew Boraine, United Democratic Front.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You can't recall either way?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Burger, you must either answer - when you say no...(intervention)

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I can't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, it's better to say I can't remember because if you say no, then it means no you didn't have a project.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I cannot remember.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Just, if I can briefly return to the Rev Chikane, when I referred you to his name in the diary and I asked you to recall whether his name was given, you answered in the affirmative.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: If his name was given?

MR KAHANOVITZ: As someone who the Region 6 was interested in.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, I gave evidence that I can't remember, it's possible.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The Rev Allan Boesak.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Not that I can remember.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Then someone by the name of K Mhlaba, you recall the Harms Commission found the CCB was involved in a plot to murder him in Natal, ring a bell?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't know.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Roskam we've dealt with already.  David Webster.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No involvement with him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I'm not asking you whether you were personally involved in his murder.  We now know and it's been proved beyond reasonable doubt that Mr Barnard shot him and that Mr Botha was driving the car at the time the incident occurred.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I was never aware of it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: There's mention in the diary ...(intervention)