Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-10

MR BERGER: Was there any television monitor in the Police van that day?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, no, I did not see it.  I was just sitting there, I did not see any monitor.

MR BERGER: And after that day, you were taken back to prison, is that right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I was taken back to Stofberg.

MR BERGER: Did you attend the hearing at any time during that session, I mean did you come back the next day to attend the hearing?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot remember, I think it was postponed or something, I cannot remember very well.

MR BERGER: Yes.  You see what happened Mr Nosenga is that the hearings continued in your absence, you went back to prison but the applicants continued to give evidence during August.  You never saw that, am I right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.  I saw it on television.

MR BERGER: On the news?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, on the news.

MR BERGER: And the first time that you came to attend these hearings, it was not in this hall but in a separate room, that was during January of this year?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.  I started coming here in January.

MR BERGER: And would that have been the first time that you actually watched a television monitor, besides the news programme, that you actually watched a television monitor and saw the other applicants giving evidence?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Now before you came in January, do you remember that you were visited again at Stofberg, on two occasions by a tall white man with a moustache?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I cannot recall.

MR BERGER: The first time that he came in December of 1998, he came with Ms Tanzer.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is possible.

MR BERGER: And the second time he came, he came without Ms Tanzer?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know which prison you are talking about, was it Stofberg or which one?

MR BERGER: Stofberg, yes.  If you don't remember, you don't remember.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I cannot recall.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga, I want to just ask you a few questions about your evidence in relation to what happened in Boipatong.  Remember you - are you tired?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I am not tired.

MR BERGER: Do you remember you spoke about a hostel in Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is the hostel for the residents of Boipatong.

MR BERGER: What I want to put to you is that it is no longer a hostel, it used to be a hostel.  It was situated along Mosheshe, Baralong and Majola Streets.  It is within Boipatong as you say, but it is not a hostel any more, it is part of the housing of Boipatong.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I don't know about that, I just know it as a hostel.

MR LAX: Mr Berger, can I just clarify something.  Are you putting it to him that it wasn't a hostel at the time of the attack or that it is no longer a hostel now?  I am not clear.

MR BERGER: That it was not a hostel at the time of the attack.  It was formerly a hostel.

MR LAX: Do you understand the question now?  Do you reply to that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I understand.  I am saying I only knew it as a hostel because it is shaped into a hostel.

MR LAX: It is what, sorry, I couldn't hear.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It has the shape of a hostel.

MR BERGER: When you were tortured in relation to the shootings in Sebokeng, is it your evidence that the Police already knew about Sebokeng and were asking you specifically about those shootings in Sebokeng?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is what I said because I was arrested in Parys and I was brought here.

MR BERGER: During that torture, were you asked any questions about Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did say that they did not make mention of Boipatong, they tortured me pertaining to the Sebokeng incident.

MR BERGER: Why did you mention the names of Papie and Mzwake?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said last week that I was being assaulted and tortured by these Police and I decided that I had to protect myself by implicating these people.

MR BERGER: Who is Ruben?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He is one person who doesn't have an eye, he was here to testify.

MR BERGER: One of the applicants?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Did you see him on the night of the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There were many of us, some of us took different directions, but one thing that I know that people who were residing in the township in the Vaal, people who had been residing at the hostel, people who had come from the township to reside at the hostel, did not remain behind at the hostel.  They were part of the attack, except for women and children.

MR BERGER: Do you know who Makuka is?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I know Makuka.

MR BERGER: Who is Makuka?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I know Makuka from Sharpeville.

MR BERGER: Did you see him on the night of the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't want to tell a lie, there were many of us.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga, if you were taken to Boipatong today,  or taken to kwaMadala and from kwaMadala to Boipatong, would you be able to point out how you got from kwaMadala to Boipatong and where you went in Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I would be able to do that.

MR BERGER: Were you able to understand the photographs and the maps that were placed before you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, but then I could not make out the direction pertaining to the small houses, they are very small on the map.  If you can take me there, yes, I would be able to point out the route that we took from the hostel and how we entered the township.

MR BERGER: And where you went in the township?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR BERGER: After the attack on Boipatong, you told the Committee how you went back to the stadium, and after that, you went to Stikenauw's room, do you remember that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: What was the feeling amongst you and your friends as you were in Stikenauw's room?  Were you calm and quiet or were you excited and hyped up?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, we were excited.  That is where Stikenauw actually told me that he had raped someone.

MR BERGER: Was it that same feeling at the stadium when you came back from the attack, that you were excited and hyped up?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did say that when we went to the stadium, the same feeling prevailed, that is where we drank ntelezi to cleanse ourselves.  We put the firearms on the ground.

MR BERGER: As you were walking away from the stadium to the rooms, in your excited state, were you talking to one another about what had happened and what had happened during the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall, except what Stikenauw had told me in his room.  We then parted later, we parted so that we went to our individual rooms or separate rooms.

MR BERGER: But would I be correct if my understanding is this that you went to Stikenauw's room because you and Stikenauw and others, you were still excited and were still talking about what had happened in Boipatong, would I be right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct because he told me that he had raped.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Nosenga, you testified about a garage that was burnt and you said it was burnt by members of the ANC?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did mention that.

MR MALINDI: And that is according to the comrades that detained you in that toilet?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR MALINDI: What was your relationship with the people that it was said were responsible for the burning of the garage?