Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-22

MR TIPP: Mr Ngobese, I've already suggested to you that you charged forward into that portion of King George Street, that is was your intention to attack, that that is what the guards of the ANC saw and it is for that reason that shots were fired in defence of themselves and of Shell House.

MR NGOBESE: All I know is that we were going to the library building and we were shot by people who just wanted to kill some Zulus who were marching peacefully.

MR TIPP: Mr Ngobese, as I understand your evidence, you're saying that there were no firearms whatsoever amongst your group and that no person in that group at any stage fired a firearm, is that right?

MR NGOBESE: That is correct.

MR TIPP: Where exactly, if you can recall, in King George Street did you taken cover?

MR NGOBESE: I got underneath a car and I got some cover but I got shot on the kneecap.

MR TIPP: Was that on the western side of that part of King George Street?

MR NGOBESE: It was on the northern part of King George Street, not the eastern part, not the western part but it was the northern part of King George Street.   I don't know whether we do understand each other.

MR TIPP: Mr Ngobese, I'm not sure that we do understand each other and I'll try to clarify it with you.  As you were moving down King George Street from the direction of Noord Street, did you take cover on the side of the road to your right or on the side of the road to your left?

MR NGOBESE: On the right-hand side.

MR TIPP: Was that into King George Street opposite Shell House?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, that is correct.

MR TIPP: You've been back to that scene, do you remember that there is a cafe, the fish and chip shop?

MR NGOBESE: No, I did not see that shop.  Even now I don't know what is being sold.  I know there's a lot of people and a lot of shops there but I don't have any clarity as to what is sold where.

MR TIPP: Do you remember whether it was a yellow car that you took cover under?

MR NGOBESE: It could have been yellow, it could have been red, but it was a relatively small car, I'm not sure about the colour, it's between red and yellow.

MR TIPP: I'm going to suggest to you that in the immediate vicinity of where you must have been on that description, there was a man from your group who was firing widely with an AK47 during the time of the shooting incident itself.

MR NGOBESE: I never saw that man.

MR TIPP: Just for the record again Mr Chairman, that
would be the Mr Dias who gave that evidence, to whom our learned friends have referred from time to time.  If that's not clear, it's not Mr Dias who was doing the shooting, he gave the evidence.
	Mr Ngobese, in preparation for you giving this evidence here today, did your legal representatives point out to you the ballistics evidence relating to shooting marks on and around Shell House?

MR NGOBESE: No, I wasn't.

MR TIPP: I'm going to suggest to you that that evidence indicates that a substantial number of shots were fired by people amongst the marchers during the course of that incident and that you must have been aware of that at the time.

MR NGOBESE: If we had gone to attack I could say I know that but because I wasn't armed or we weren't armed, I cannot say anything about that.  Chairperson, Members of the Committee, I've got a problem with my knee, as I'm sitting I'm experiencing some pain.

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, it would be convenient if the witness wants to stretch his leg, I can also just check to see what I need to put to him.  If we could take a few minutes?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I'm sorry that you are suffering pain but we'll adjourn for a short while to enable you to feel better.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

AMOS NGOBESE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you feeling much better now?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, it's not as bad as before.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, I'm pleased to report that we've made use of the opportunity in the short adjournment to ...[no sound] the further questions and	decided that they can all be left to argument.  We will not put anything further to Mr Ngobese today.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TIPP

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR P A VAN WYK: No re-examination Mr Chairman, except that I want to point out, as I will raise in argument later on, where the four shots are ...[indistinct] and then I just want to mention to you that it has been brought to my notice today that a policeman is at present being prosecuted for shooting at a Zulu at the Park Station.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, what has that got to do with me?

MR P A VAN WYK: No, well I think everybody at the inquest knew that there was a policeman who fired shots at a Zulu and a policeman is being prosecuted for that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that may well be so.  You've got no questions to put to this witness?

MR P A VAN WYK: No, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR P A VAN WYK

MR LAX: Just one question please Mr Ngobese, you were quite specific, you said you didn't hear any shots from your group, did you hear any shots from any of the other groups?

MR NGOBESE: No, I did not hear.

MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngobese, thank you very much, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, if another witness is to be heard, one of the relatives or some of the relatives of Mr Vilakazi who also died on the corner of King George and de Villiers Streets is present.  It's the mother of Mr Vilakazi.  Her name is Bashitshile, spelt: B-A-S-H-I-T-S-H-I-L-E and her first name is Mqanti, spelt: M-Q-A-N-T-I and her surname is Masikane, spelt: M-A-S-I-K-A-N-E.
	She is quite deaf and well on in years and she asked that her other son who is the brother of the deceased, assist her while she is giving evidence.  If that could be done with the permission of the Committee.  	Her son is, for record purposes, Shayezakhe, spelt: S-H-A-Y-E-Z-A-K-H-E, Bethwell Vilakazi.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that should be arranged.

MR PRETORIUS: Thank you Chairperson.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Mr Pretorius, what language are your clients going to speak?
	What are your full names?

SHAYESAKHE BETHWELL VILAKAZI: I am Shayesakhe Bethwell Vilakazi.

JUDGE NGCOBO: What is your other name?

BASHITSHILE MQANTI MASIKANE: Mqanti Vilakazi.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Can the lady hear or can't she hear completely?

SHAYESAKHE BETHWELL VILAKAZI: After hearing this event and that she has lost her son, she consciousness and she fell sick for a very long time and she lost her hearing.  When I talk to her I take a long time, you know she takes a long time before she gets to understand.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Do you shout when you talk to her?

SHAYESAKHE BETHWELL VILAKAZI: Yes, I have to shout to make a point that she hears even though she may not hear whilst I'm talking or shouting.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Do you have any objections in taking the oath or will you convey everything that will be said to your mum exactly as it's being said?

SHAYESAKHE BETHWELL VILAKAZI: No, I don't object to that, I will do that.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Do you confirm that the way you interpret to your mother you will interpret exactly as it's being said an nothing else?

SHAYESAKHE BETHWELL VILAKAZI: Yes, I agree to that.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Please take the oath.

SHAYESAKHE BETHWELL VILAKAZI: (sworn states)

GEORGE BIZOS: We would have no objection to the son giving the evidence in relation to personal details and family matters, it may have the effect - both saving time and not putting an elderly woman with an affliction to any difficulty.

JUDGE NGCOBO: To the extent that there may well be questions that my be directed to Mrs Vilakazi, is it not necessary for her to be sworn?

GEORGE BIZOS: ...[inaudible] have heard from relatives of the people ...[intervention]

JUDGE NGCOBO: ...[inaudible] the process, we'd better do so.
	Please ask Mum if she doesn't have any objection insofar as taking an oath is concerned and if there may be any questions posed to her she will answer them as truthful as possible.