Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: If my memory doesn't fail me, I think you were arrested near a bioscope or it was a bioscope, a road, correct me if I am wrong, could the bioscope have been in College Road?

MR KRUSE: That is correct.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: There was a road running out of College Road.

MR KRUSE: What happened there?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I think we had staked out that area, waiting for you and you were eventually arrested, but I don't think, you weren't arrested by the team in my car.

MR KRUSE: You personally arrested me Captain Benzien.  Yourself and Piet Goosen, do you remember?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It is difficult to remember Sir.  I will concede if Mr Kruse says it was me, but I don't think I was the one who arrested you.

MR KRUSE: You put me in a combi yourself, Goosen and Liebenberg and drove me to Culemborg.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am not sure, but I am willing to concede.  Your memory will be better than mine on that aspect, but I am definitely not sure if I was with on that arrest.  I may have been in the area, I know I was in the area, but I can't answer that in all honesty, but I will  concede, if you say I was there, I was there.

MR KRUSE: Is it not true that you and Goosen assaulted me throughout the trip?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As I say I cannot remember the arrest, but if you say we assaulted you in the combi, then I would concede that in all probability I did, I don't know how though.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you finished?

MR KRUSE: Explain to the Commission what happened at Culemborg when we arrived there?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Mr Commissioner, as I said to Mr Kruse, I cannot specifically remember this arrest.  I concede if he says I was the person in the vehicle and that he was assaulted, I concede that, but if he can give me more clarity of what happened at Culemborg, I will try to remember as best I can.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think the question is, whether or not you arrested him, eventually he was taken to Culemborg and the question is what happened there to him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Sir at Culemborg, and please bear with me, I am conceding it could have happened, in all probability he would have been assaulted and no doubt by me.

MR KRUSE: You and whom?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: You are saying Piet Goosen was there, so I presume it was Piet Goosen.

MR KRUSE: Who else?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I honestly cannot remember.  If you give me the names, I will concede that they could have been there, Sir.  I do not just want to pull names out of a hat, I really cannot remember this specific incident.

MR KRUSE: Was Liebenberg there?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: If you say Liebenberg was there, I would concede Liebenberg was there.

MR KRUSE: Did he partake in my assault, didn't he?

CHAIRPERSON: I think you better put it to him, tell him that.

MR KRUSE: Liebenberg was also part of the assault?

CHAIRPERSON: That Liebenberg in fact took part in the assault on you, put it to him on that basis.  If you are clear in your mind that Liebenberg did, so that you can afford him an opportunity to answer.

MR KRUSE: I put it to you Liebenberg was also part of the team who assaulted me.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Probably I concede.  If I could perhaps know what method of assault was used on you?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, before you get there.  I think, how many times did you arrest or did you take part in arresting Mr Kruse?  How many times?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Your Worship, as I said to the court, as a part of the team I was out that afternoon, but my memory fails me that I was actually in the vehicle that carried out the arrest or he was put in the vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Kruse, when did this happen?

MR KRUSE: The 21st of September, 1987.

CHAIRPERSON: 1987?

MR KRUSE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Were you present during any arrest of Mr Kruse, other than his arrest on the 27th of September 1987?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As far as I know Your Worship, he was arrested only once, and my personal recollection of this, and I may be totally wrong, is that I was in an ordinary sedan motorcar, parked in one of the side streets.  The whole area had been saturated.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I accept that.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: And that is why I in my own heart, I can't remember actually being in on the arrest.  I have participated in a lot of actions.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I move on to something else, because you've already testified about that.  Would you have assaulted Mr Kruse only on one occasion, that is at the time of his arrest, the 30 minutes of his arrest of September 1987, would that have been the only occasion on which you assaulted him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I think not, because it comes to mind that early one morning, it was the morning that I was looking for his passport, I did assault him that morning also.
	And that is why I will accept that I assaulted him the afternoon on his testimony that he says so.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kruse, in your own understanding was a prominent member of the MK, wasn't he at that time?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I think the information that we had at that time was that he was a Logistics member who had to see the weaponry come into the Western Cape and then put it away.

CHAIRPERSON: That may be so, my question is did you not regard him as a prominent member of MK as a result thereof?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, Sir.  Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: That is just my question.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now did you not regard his arrest as a big cache?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.  With all respect, Sir, I am trying to make a thing with myself, did I or didn't I?

CHAIRPERSON: I know that, I am trying to help you, I am trying to find out, because this thing, some things are quite puzzling to me.  You regarded him as a big cache, you caught a prominent member of MK?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: And that is why I concede Sir, that if he says he can remember the incident more clearly, if he says I assaulted him, I say yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I can assure you it will make things better if you keep to my questions and restrict your answers to my questions. It would make things a lot easier for you.
	So the arrest of a prominent person must have been a memorable occasion?  Wasn't it?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And yet, you don't even remember whether you in fact took part in this memorable occasion and actually arresting him?  You don't remember it?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I don't remember it, but I will concede.   Definitely gentlemen, I will concede if he says it was me.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't you have regarded yourself as having accomplished an important task in apprehending Mr Kruse?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Important task in the aspect that he was not supposed to be part of the military machinery as a (indistinct), he was supposed to be a Logistics man, but be that as it may, still an important catch.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And furthermore you told us that normally you would assault detainees or people arrested, within the first 30 minutes of their arrest and get the information.  Did this happen in his case as well?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I would concede, yes, it happened.

CHAIRPERSON: You would concede that this happened, and of course you interrogated him only once in your whole career, you interrogated Mr Kruse only once after this particular arrest?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That comes to mind, if it was that afternoon and definitely on a morning.  Mr Kruse could perhaps bring me closer to this and that morning was to find his - that I can remember distinctly was to find the whereabouts of his passport.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember details of the assault on him?  How you assaulted him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: On the morning I used the black bag method on him, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that now the 30 minutes period that you are - are you referring to that or are you referring to the day when you were looking for his passport?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That was very early the morning for his passport.