Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR TLOUBATLA: He has got it with him.  Thank you.  Mr Morris it is my feeling and I want to agree with the newspapers that you know these two incidents, that is your incident where you were killed, I mean where your friends were killed and you were so much tortured, they are so closely linked that it is my feeling that the inference that I'm making that it was to avenge what you went through.  Do you see it the same way as myself?

SIMON MORRIS: With respect sir again I think when you say it is your feelings, you have a right to say it is your feelings and even the journalists have a right to write whatever they want to write about their own feelings but ... (intervention)

MR TLOUBATLA: No, I want your feelings, I know our feelings I can ... (intervention)

SIMON MORRIS: Yes.  I think it is the first time that I see that newspaper article.

MR TLOUBATLA: Yes but please understand me, do you agree with me, do you agree with the newspaper that this was definitely to avenge what you went through?

SIMON MORRIS: I have no knowledge of that sir.

MR MALAN: Could I ask you Mr Morris, did you have knowledge of the death of Mr Lingani, of Jeff's father?

SIMON MORRIS: No sir.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR TLOUBATLA: I'm going to take you further on this matter.   The reason basically why I'm putting this feeling of mine to you, it's simply to say that you are not telling the commission the truth when you say you knew nothing about SOSCO, you knew nothing about the rivalries between these two organisations because there it is, somebody went out of his way to go and avenge what you went through, that's why I am putting this through to you, that you personally are definitely not telling the truth.

SIMON MORRIS: With respect sir, can you then put the questions to prove that I'm not a SOSCO member or even my friends who died because they cannot answer for themselves now.  We are the only two that survived so we can relate what happened.  So if you are saying to me that I am not telling the truth, with respect I must convey my apologies to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's handle this in a different way.  On the face of it this article is relevant and important and we are here to seek the truth and must get to it by all means.  The other people, the five do you know whether any one of them was a member of SOSCO?

SIMON MORRIS: No, no sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know?

SIMON MORRIS: I know that they were not even a member of any single organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: How can you know that?

SIMON MORRIS: We used to go to stadiums because we grew up from childhood.  On Fridays we used to play soccer at the grounds late in the afternoon and also Mondays and on Saturdays we used to go to Wits Saturday School which was conducted by - I don't know, Wits Saturday School and then as a soccer player, either Saturday or Sunday I was required to do my duties at Keiser Chiefs and the others would then follow me maybe to come and see where I'm playing.

CHAIRPERSON: The impression you give us is that you in particular was totally uninterested in politics?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: That may or may not be so, but isn't it so, don't we know that we all know that since 1976 high school students have demonstrated clear interest in political activism.  Am I right in my statement?

SIMON MORRIS: You are right, but not all students are involved or are interested in politics.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were in Standard 10?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And again, I preface my question to you by saying it may or may not be so but we do know, don't we, that Matric students in many instances were in fact in the forefront of student politics.  Isn't that so?

SIMON MORRIS: They might be but not all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: And we do know, don't we, that particularly in Soweto there was a lot of political activism amongst students.  Isn't that so?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes that was so.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I want to know from you, was there political activism in your school?

SIMON MORRIS: I have no knowledge of that sir.

CHAIRPERSON: How big is the school.  Does is not comprise of hundreds of students?

SIMON MORRIS: It comprises of hundreds of students but all the students are not doing the same activity because as I said earlier on that I was involved as a tutor, we did not have teachers so we used to help each other tutoring so whatever happened outside, whatever happened in other classrooms, it was not our business sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So is it your evidence that as far as you know, there has not be political activism at your school?

SIMON MORRIS: No sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your evidence?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, then let us look at this ... (intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Just a matter on that aspect of political activism.  Why were you dismissed at nine o'clock that morning?

SIMON MORRIS: There were I think trucks or even delivery vehicles which were, I can say they were looted by other schools in our vicinity so the police went from one school to another school, they then came to us when we had assembly.  We were then instructed to go home on that Friday.

ADV SIGODI: So the students from your school were not involved in the looting or ... (intervention)

SIMON MORRIS: No, we had assembly at that point and the soldiers just came in.  At the assembly they talked to our principle.  We were then told by one teacher that the school is dismissed because the soldiers were saying the gate must be closed and teachers must go home so we went home.

CHAIRPERSON: During your days as a student at that school, was there ever a so-called school boycott?

SIMON MORRIS: I have no knowledge of that.

CHAIRPERSON: If it had been there I would expect you to know.

SIMON MORRIS: If it had been there maybe it was going to be there, but I have no knowledge of that sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Sometimes we have problems expressing ourselves, when you say you have no knowledge of that, I'm not sure whether you are saying as far as you're concerned it did not happen or whether you're saying it might have happened, but I don't remember.

SIMON MORRIS: It did not happen.

ADV SIGODI: Just on the aspect of the boycott, you've just said that you were tutoring?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Why were you tutoring?

SIMON MORRIS: I was tutoring maths at our school.

ADV SIGODI: Why?

SIMON MORRIS: We did not have a Standard 9 and Standard 10 teacher so the material that we got from Wits Saturday School I used to bring it to our school and maybe other classmates duplicate the material because we didn't have teachers for two years, specifically maths and physics.

ADV SIGODI: Did you have teachers for other subjects?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now let me ask you questions about this article which Mr Tloubatla showed to you.  It implied that after what happened to you, there was retribution.  In other words it was a revenge carried out on Lingani or Lingani's father.

SIMON MORRIS: Yes that is what the article is saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  It said the following night Jefferson's house and another next to it were fire bombed etc, etc and later a bus was driven into the ruins to complete the fact.  Now this was quite something, this was quite a huge destruction, the house was petrol bombed and from there a bus driven over it to make sure that it's flattened.

SIMON MORRIS: At that point I was still at Baragwanath ICU.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and in fact I don't think that any of the six of you could have been responsible for that.

SIMON MORRIS: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: But if you, know that we know that you the victims could not have been involved at all, if you are not attached to some kind of organisation or if you're not attached to some kind of a large organisation, who possibly could have done this in revenge.  That is the crux of the question?