Special Hearings — Business Hearings — 1997-11-13

DR BORAINE: Thank you, Chairperson.  I have a number of questions, but I'm also told that we have the limited time.  So I will restrict them if I may.
 First, let me express a word of appreciation, particularly to the distinction between deeds and words.  I think that's very helpful.  I have to say without being mischievous that's a remarkable contrast between this presentation and that of the Chamber of Mines.
 I wonder sometimes if Anglo American was ever tempted to move totally independently, but I - you don't have to respond to that.
 Two questions.  Right through out the three days of hearings, there's been an attempt, I think, to reach consensus as to what the role of business is in a country like South Africa with its unique problems and possibilities.
 From the extreme of deep cynicism of business is business.  That's it.  They are there to make profits and anything else is by the way and if people want to act towards others in need, they do that independently in - as ordinary citizens, but not as business.
 To those who said, well, we really wanted to play some kind of role, but we very limited by Government or authoritarianism, we didn't want to offend some of share holders, we weren't able to move as much as we would liked to have done.  So we tried to do our best as a business.
 To another point of view, which seems to me is coming through in what you have been saying to us today, but rather than me put words in your mouth, let me quote another company, Tongaat-Hulett who gave evidence this morning, I think it was this morning.  We've been going at it so long, I've forgotten what day it is.

CHAIRPERSON: It was this morning.

DR BORAINE: Where they said this and I want to quote
"The group also recognises that the prospect and future of an open society is not solely the responsibility of the TRC, for example, or the Government.  It, together with other businesses has a role to play, not only in proving the lot of its employees, but particularly through its senior management, influencing other business concerns and contributing time and effort constructively to the benefit of the greater society."
One of the example they gave, was an initiative that was taken, and I don't have to go into names.  I think you know them well.  Prior to the election in 1994, when it looked as though KwaZulu Natal was not going to participate in the election and that would have had very serious repercussions for all of us;  that they took the initiative of getting now President Mandela, together with Dr Buthelezi. 
 In other words they - it is far more than just making profits.  It may be argued that the greater stability, the greater opportunities for business and so on, but I sense that there was more to it and some of the quotations that you've given to us now and some of the comments you have made.
 Where do you see it.  I mean, what is the role of business in South Africa, both in the past and in this exciting future?

<UNKNOWN>: I think, I mean, I haven't got that definition of a general business purpose that you say the Tongaat gave.  After - from what I could pick up from your reading, I think we would go along pretty well entirely with that.
 I think in a way, part of the answer to your question is the question in the beginning that you said we need not answer.  Yes, we did think on many occasions whether we should cut loose and leave the Chamber and then when this was debated, I mean our annual group conference, I mean at least ten years running, I think pretty well, and we decided not to do so, because we thought we would achieve more by dragging the others along too.
 I mean we can go and I'm sure it's particular familiar with you, of the whole question of the wages in the Mining Industry on which Bobby touched on there.
 Yes, I think another point is some of us have on occasion sat on foreign boards, overseas companies, based in London and elsewhere.
 The amount they have expended, I mean, their sort of contributions to what they tend to call charity, are really laughable compared with what our group and many others do, I can't - don't know the figures and all the others what one sees what they're doing, so one has some idea of what their budgets and expenditure must be.
 Indeed it's just those things that kept us in the Chamber, led us to play the part we played in the Urban Foundation.  The part our people played, catches on in submissions here and the Consultative Business Movement, these two have come together and are now in the NBI, now people who've played a part there.
 And also to our - I think it's fair to say, Dr Boraine, that it was Jan Steyn's idea, the joint educational trust, but I think it's fair to say if we hadn't given the lead and said that we will put up 50 million rand a year for five years, that shamed the others, well that's not - perhaps that's too strong a word to use - that encouraged the others to come along.
 As you know that raised something like five forty, five seventy million rand.  It hasn't all been spent and is likely to be spent over the next three years.
 We happen to think that this has been a major success story which I think has probably not (indistinct) its fair share of credit for what its achieved in the field of education.
 Now, there may be other examples and Nikki, this is an important philosophical thing.  Do you go along with it?

MR NIKKI OPPENHEIMER: Can I add.  I can go along with that.  I mean, one, South Africa as has been said at this forum here, is an unusual most probably a unique country and it requires all South Africans to do more than just interact with themselves.  It requires them to reach out around them and certainly we in Anglo will encourage that very much.

DR BORAINE: I have just one last question.  We listened as was earlier indicated, to COSATU before lunch and a question which was put to them, collectively and I would really like to put it to you as well.
 That is;  bearing in mind the fact that we remain a deeply divided society with millions of problems and quite a lot of hostility and different perceptions of the past, as you look to the future rather than us dwelling in the past;  do you think that we can overcome the divisions of the past?
 Do you think that reconciliation is more than just a nice word with some religious connotation?  That it can be achieved in South Africa, despite the gulf between business and labour, between Black and White, between men and women, between so many different groups?  How do you see it?

<UNKNOWN>: I personally do think we're going to achieve this.  I think we're making great steps towards achieving it already.  I think this has been to a great deal, as in so many things, led by the splendid, if I may use that word, policy that President Mandela has followed.
 The whole spirit of reconciliation.  I think too that I, and I'm sure many of my colleagues, maybe all of them, have been amazed and pleased and generally touched by the general lack of hostility or antipathy from the Black people of the country who were, as everyone knows, hideously discriminated against during the period.
 As Nikki has said, we find the constructive discussions that we can have with Government leaders today, putting forward ideas, testing our ideas, very refreshing, having not been in that positions for 40 odd years.
 So I believe this is coming about and  I think, if I may say so, the purpose and effect that your Commission is having, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, is moving along in these directions and I hope keeping a balance that will help this come about.
 But this is such an important subject.  Can I ask if either of my colleagues would like to add to that.