Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: : Thank you Chairperson.   Mr Lekitlana you were sitting here when your co-applicant was giving his evidence.  I am not going to make you repeat what he already said but we now know that you are asking amnesty from this Committee because of the murder that was committed in Kanana on 21 July 1991.   The interest of the Committee as you heard the Chairperson, is your role in that regard.   You killed or you played part in the killing of Mr Ndlameni, isn't it?

ANSWER: That's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: : Can you now briefly or can you now extensively explain the role that you played here.   The role I mean what did you as Mr Lekitlana do on that day to the body of the deceased?

ANSWER: What I did to the corpse when he was shot, I open a knife and I stabbed him so that the victim should die.   After he died I poured petrol on him, when I was supposed to light him Elias Busakwe he told me that he has died already so we should not burn him.
3b

<UNKNOWN>: /...
120	S LEKITLANA

<UNKNOWN>: : Are you saying it should be put on record by this Committee that at the time you stabbed the deceased, he was still alive?

ANSWER: Yes he was still alive.

CHAIRPERSON: : What is the name of the person that prevented you from setting him alight and how do you spell his name?

ANSWER: B-u-s-a-k-w-e.

MR DE JAGER: Is he the third applicant?

COUNSEL: He is the third applicant in this matter Chairperson.

<UNKNOWN>: : Solomon now we heard your role you played, can you now tell this Committee what prompted you into doing that, what prompted you into stabbing and attempting to set Mr Ndlameni alight?   What prompted you to do that, why did you do that, what motivated you to do that?

ANSWER: Because I was among those who said he must be killed and what he did I didn't like.

<UNKNOWN>: : ...would like to know that that he did that you did not like, what is that that he did that you did not like?

ANSWER: He was robbing, he was raping, he was taking money from people with the name of the ANC.

<UNKNOWN>: : When you participated in his killing, did you have any political objective in mind?

ANSWER: Are you referring to me sir, yes I had.

<UNKNOWN>: : We heard that what is there that you wanted to achieve politically, what is there that the deceased did to you that you...

CHAIRPERSON: : I don't know whether it's what the deceased did, it wasn't his political objective that you wanted in the first place.
3b	COUNSEL: /...
121	S LEKITLANA

COUNSEL: That is his political objective.

ANSWER: I just wanted to save the community by killing him.

<UNKNOWN>: : You are saying when you participated in his killing from your own thinking, you wanted to save the community further from, we were told that you said it in your own words as well that he was harassing the community, he was raping and he was robbing?

ANSWER: I saw exactly what he did, all the things that he did, robbing, killing and raping.

<UNKNOWN>: : ...we understand you to be an ANC marshall, will you say that at the day and time of your commission of this act, were you acting in your capacity as this ANC marshall?

ANSWER: Yes.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY COUNSEL
QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

<UNKNOWN>: : You stated in response that you only wanted to save the community and not to gain or obtain anything, do you recall that?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Your further testimony was to the effect that the deceased raped, robbed and took money in the name of the ANC?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : ...if I say this that the deceased's activities, the deceased's unwanted activities had nothing to do with free political activity in the area?

ANSWER: It had nothing to do with political activity.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE
QUESTIONS BY JUDGE NGOEPE

<UNKNOWN>: : When you say that you saw the deceased
3b	committing /...
122	S LEKITLANA
committing all these crimes, did you mean that, you saw that with your own eyes?

ANSWER: What I have seen which he did with my own eyes is when he entered a certain house, I was with him on that day when he did that terrible action, that woman who came and make an allegation that her husband is giving her trouble then he said to the father of that house to say, he told that husband to say he must never come into that house again, if he come I'm going to kill you.   When I came I found out that this is the house for the deceased, he is the father in this house.

CHAIRPERSON: : What do you understand by that?   Maybe because of language difficulties I didn't understand what the witness is trying to say.   Is it possible for you to clear up what he is trying to say?

COUNSEL: Chairperson may we ask him to repeat it again, I didn't understand actually what was said?

CHAIRPERSON: : Please I want you to give your answer in such a way that we can understand what you are saying, step by step, understand?

MR DE JAGER: What language is he speaking?

COUNSEL: Sotho.

MR DE JAGER: Are you satisfied that it's being interpreted correctly?

CHAIRPERSON: Would you please just answer again because we had some difficulty understanding what was said?

ANSWER: I was together with the deceased to realise that he was doing evil things, as we were walking a woman came to us and she said my husband is giving me troubles in the house.   Myself and the deceased we went into this woman's house to try and bring solutions, but the next day when I go
3b	back /...
123	S LEKITLANA
back to the house the deceased was now the father in the house and when I requested the answer, the next door neighbour told me that no, the father has been chased away because now the brother that I see now in this family is now the new father of this house.

CHAIRPERSON: : Yes you are now going to tell us what else you saw with your own eyes, what else did he do that you know, that you saw?

ANSWER: What I've seen that he has done again, the deceased has his own people who used to work with him because they were doing wrong things.

CHAIRPERSON: : What does that mean?

ANSWER: What I've just mentioned now sir?

MR DE JAGER: Mr Mpshe could you kindly ask the people not to interrupt and not to, they are making it difficult for the applicant.   The applicant is seeking amnesty, you shouldn't...

CHAIRPERSON: : Give him a chance to give his evidence, it is difficult at the best of times to come before so many people and give evidence so be patient with him.   Will you please tell us what you are saying?

ANSWER: Many things which I've seen that he do, I was afraid to walk with him because he was raping.   What I've seen that he is doing he has a bad heart, he hit a certain woman with a stone and then we thought the woman has died.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: : You were present when he did that?

ANSWER: I was not there.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: : We are asking you what you saw, please.

ANSWER: What I've seen is when we called to come and see what the deceased has done (silence)...

MR DE JAGER: Can you continue please?
3b	MS /...
123	S LEKITLANA

UNKNOWN: : What did you see the deceased doing?

ANSWER: What I've seen the deceased do, I have never seen him do something but I know that what he did I didn't like.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Chairperson with your permission?

CHAIRPERSON: : Please do clear it up.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Lekitlana what the Committee would like to understand is as follows.   You mentioned, and your co-applicant as well, mentioned that the deceased, among others, he was attacking, he was robbing, he was raping.  What the Committee now will like to get from you is these deeds ......
3b	to/...
124	MR LEKITLANA
to mention them to this Committee.  What is there that you have seen that the deceased did?

MR LEKITLANA: I have never seen many of the things he was doing, but the evidence that I have is that one when we were called in to resolve an issue in a family and he ended up being the father of the family himself.  That is the only incident I witnessed.