Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-09

MR VISSER: Alright.  What I want to ask you about your sojourn at the pistol shooting range is whether you can remember at all whether Mr Bhila was being interrogated at the time.

FRANK MCCARTER: Not, that I can recall, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes.  For the record, Mr Chairman, that accords with the evidence which Mr Wasserman will give but that would not accord with the evidence that Mr Rosslee will give.  I will come to that.
	Lastly Mr McCater, just in regard to your political objectives as you explained them to the Committee, you said something to the effect that you believed that the acts which you committed, the unlawful acts which you committed were in fact on the instructions of the South African Government.  Well be that as it may, I don't want to quibble with you about that but did you in any event regard it that whatever you did was in fact and in effect in support of the South African Government?

FRANK MCCARTER: Absolutely, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I'm sorry that I was so long but I believe that is what I have for this witness, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR ROUSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Roussouw on record for applicant Bosch.
	Mr McCarter, with reference to the shooting range, Mr Bosch will testify that the area in Durban was unknown to him and that this was either the first or the second, he's not sure, instance in which he was deployed here from Vlakplaas, would you confirm that?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman, Mr Bosch only came down to Durban on one or two occasions.

MR ROUSSOUW: In his application he mentions that the area where you waited, which we now know was the shooting range, he refers to it as a municipal park and that's clearly a mistake.

FRANK MCCARTER: I understand that the place has now been converted into a municipal park.

MR ROUSSOUW: Mr McCarter, when you arrived or rather, when you intercepted Bhila, who was with you in your vehicle?

FRANK MCCARTER: As I recollect it was Rosslee, myself and Steve Bosch and Michael Lembede.

MR ROUSSOUW: Mr Bosch states that he can't recall that and he's not sure whether Bhila was brought to the shooting range after he had already arrived there or whether he came there with you, he can't recall that.  I'm just putting that to you to find out.

FRANK MCCARTER: I won't deny that, Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: What will you not deny?

FRANK MCCARTER: That he is not sure of what transpired.

MR ROUSSOUW: Mr McCarter, may I go back to the time when you received the instruction.  Further to your evidence-in-cross by my learned friend, Mr Visser, Mr Bosch will testify that he was not present when the instruction was given by Mr Taylor, is that absolutely correct, do you confirm that?

FRANK MCCARTER: I won't deny that, Mr Chairman.

MR ROUSSOUW: Coming to the time when he was informed of the purpose of the operation, Mr Bosch will testify that while you were waiting he was waiting with you at the shooting range, he was not informed at that time of what was to take place, can you confirm or deny that?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, it's a little bit inconceivable to me that I'd, that he wouldn't be informed at that time, by that time.  I won't deny it but I can't think that I wouldn't have informed him or someone wouldn't have informed him.

MR ROUSSOUW: You've testified in cross-examination that you didn't give him the instruction, is that correct?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, did I say I didn't give him, I can't recall that.

MR ROUSSOUW: Mr Chairman, I've got a note here ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't the witness say in fact he was the person who would have probably have given the instruction?

MR ROUSSOUW: Mr Chairman, my note was - in a question from Commissioner Malan, whether Mr McCarter gave  instruction to Bosch and the applicant then said: "No, I must have told him while we were at the shooting range", that was his response.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I didn't make notes but my recollection is that he made it quite clear that he would have been the one to give him, because I asked him, Rosslee and Bosch being the junior officers under his command he would have been the one to give instructions and he said yes.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr Chairman, if I may assist, my note was the question was: "You would have been the one to inform Bosch", by Mr Visser, and the answer was: "That's correct".  That was the question and the  answer.

MR ROUSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr McCarter however, the evidence from Mr Bosch will be that at the time while he was waiting with you at the shooting range, he had not yet been informed of what the purpose of keeping Mr Bhila there would be.

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chair, I'm not in conflict with Mr Bosch but I find it rather inconceivable that I wouldn't have informed him at that period.  I agree with him if he says that he wasn't there when Mr Bhila was initially picked up, but I find it a bit strange that I wouldn't have told him at some stage during the day.

MR ROUSSOUW: And Mr McCarter, his evidence will further be that after the ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: Sorry.  Mr Roussouw, just to have clarity in my mind, what did you say Bosch will testify to, that at the shooting range when he arrived, he did not know the purpose of Bhila's detention there?  Will he say when he learnt what the purpose was?

MR ROUSSOUW: Mr Chairman, that is set out in his application and you will find it on page 16 of the bundle, where he says that after the body had been disposed of he was informed who Bhila, who the person was, he was never informed about the identity, he was just informed that this was an ANC terrorist and that he was involved in the bombing at the business complex at the Natal South Coast.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR ROUSSOUW: Mr McCarter, can you confirm or deny that, that you informed Mr Bosch on the way back, after the body had been disposed of, what the purpose would be of the operation?

FRANK MCCARTER: As I said, Mr Chairman, it's unlikely that I would have only informed him after the incident, but I'm afraid I can't confirm or deny.

MR ROUSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROUSSOUW

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr McCarter, just for your convenience, you might have heard that we're acting for Mr Letsatsi, Mr Khumalo, Mr Maluleka, Mr Radebe.  Is it correct, or let me rather put it to you, that three of them were normal policemen and there was one Askari amongst them, Mr Khumalo, is that your recollection of what the state was at the time?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: Is it also your recollection that they were part of a bigger contingent of Vlakplaas policemen that travelled down to Durban and had spent there time here from the 10th of February to the 27th of February?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: And the contingent existed of a total amount of 11 policemen?

FRANK MCCARTER: I can't recall the numbers but that would have appear about right.

MR HUGO: Mr McCarter, I think you've testified to that effect, just for clarity's sake, the first meeting that you had with Mr Taylor on the 20th of February, is it correct that none of the black policemen attended this meeting?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman, as I recall it it was just Rosslee and myself.

MR HUGO: You then subsequently gave an instruction to Mr Ramatala, to Ernest, to approach Mr Bhila, is that correct?

FRANK MCCARTER: Correct, Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: Now what made you decide to instruct Mr Ramatale specifically to approach Mr Bhila?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Ramatale had intimate knowledge of the workings of the ANC and the MK and it would have looked a bit silly had I tried to approach Mr Bhila, proclaiming to be an MK member.

MR HUGO: To the best of your recollection, where was Mr Bhila living or staying at that time?

FRANK MCCARTER: In Lamontville.