Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MR SHANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Can we proceed with the next matter?  I call Antony Maci.  He is present.
Pages 95 to 101 Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Maci what language would you want to use?

ANTONY MACI: Xhosa.

INTERPRETER: He'll use Xhosa.  Xhosa will be on channel three.

<UNKNOWN>: And how do you pronounce your surname?

ANTONY MACI: It's M A C I, Maci.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any objections to the taking of the oath?

ANTONY MACI: (sworn, states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

MR SHANE: Mr Maci, first of all, your identity number is on your application.  660327 5676 08 3.  Is that the correct number?

ANTONY MACI: That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE: You will see on page 100 of your application you signed it.  Is this your signature at the bottom?

ANTONY MACI: That's correct, sir.

MR SHANE: But you never ever signed it before a Commissioner of Oaths.  Is that right?

ANTONY MACI: That's correct.

MR SHANE: But you are under oath now and what you say will be the truth.  Is that correct?  Your application wasn't signed before a Commission.

ANTONY MACI: It's the absolute truth, what I'm going to say to you.

CHAIRPERSON: When you signed this affidavit or statement were you aware of the contents of this statement?

ANTONY MACI: Yes, I was fully aware of the contents of my statement.

CHAIRPERSON: And you understood it?

ANTONY MACI: Yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You were satisfied that it contained what you wanted it to contain?

ANTONY MACI: That is correct, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SHANE: Today you are a member of the South African police stationed at Katlehong, and you're a constable.  Is that right?

ANTONY MACI: That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE: You applied for amnesty first of all for the unlawful possession of firearms, is that correct?

ANTONY MACI: That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE: What type of firearms were they?

ANTONY MACI: It's AK-47 rifles and pistols and RPG7.

MR SHANE: Is that a rocket launcher or what?  What's known as a bazooka?

ANTONY MACI: Yes, that's the one known as a bazooka.

MR SHANE: And you also possessed ammunition for these weapons?

ANTONY MACI: Yes I had ammunition.

MR SHANE: And did that ammunition also include the projectile that we would fire from your so called bazooka?

ANTONY MACI: That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE: And you say besides the possession of the weapon you were involved in the transportation of these weapons?

ANTONY MACI: Yes, because the committee would give me funds to go and get these ammunitions from Polla Park, in Vosloorus hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were dealing in firearms.  Wasn't that it?

INTERPRETER: May the speaker speak up, the applicant, we cannot hear him clearly.

ANTONY MACI: We would go and look for arms in Polla Park and a hostel in Vosloorus.

MR SHANE: Would you buy them with money that was given to you by the community?

ANTONY MACI: That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE: And you would buy them in Polla Park from a certain Mozambican by the name of David, who was in a wheelchair.  Correct?

ANTONY MACI: Yes, we bought them from David, and if he did not have stock, he would accompany us to Vosloorus where we would buy them and come back with the full stock.

MR SHANE: Right, you bought them at Vosloorus at a hostel, you said?

ANTONY MACI: That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE: Was this an IFP hostel?

ANTONY MACI: That is correct.

MR SHANE: Now you also, you bought them from another person in Shongweni section, Katlehong, as well.

ANTONY MACI: That is correct.  It was a Mr Madikizela.

MR SHANE: And then you would transport these weapons back to the community.  Can you tell the Commission, the Committee, whose vehicle did you use to transport?

ANTONY MACI: We used community cars, and sometimes we would use Dumisani Sithole's car to go and buy these weapons.

MR SHANE: And besides the weapons that you transported and bought, you also possessed your own AK-47 and pistol.  Is that right?

ANTONY MACI: Yes that is correct, sir.

MR SHANE: Now, you apply for amnesty for murder.

ANTONY MACI: That is so, sir.

MR SHANE: Right.  First of all, you murdered, you shot a person by the name of Sikelo Nyekane.

ANTONY MACI: Yes I shot him, but it was a mistake.  I thought they were the enemy, the police.

MR SHANE: Now, when you shot Sikelo, is it correct that you had recently been released from detention without trial?

ANTONY MACI: That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE: You were in a house.

ANTONY MACI: That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE: Whose house was it?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane you're treading on thin ice here.  Your client has given what looks like an incorrect answer, and you're leading him now.

MR SHANE: Right, now explain ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You say that the killing of Nyekane was an accident, mistake.

ANTONY MACI: That is so, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you say it's a mistake?

MR SHANE: Sorry Mr Chairman, if I can lead him, it will emerge exactly why it was a crime, why it wasn't self defence, and I will lead him in why it was a political crime.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane I would thank you not to interrupt me.  Why do you say it was a mistake?

ANTONY MACI: Somebody knocked roughly and kicked the doors.  I enquired who was knocking and the person did not answer.  As he was busy kicking the door, and as soon as the door opened I shot immediately.  And when he fell inside the house that's when I noticed that it was Sithelo.  That is why I say it's a mistake, because I mistook him for the internal stability unit police.

MR SHANE: So when you heard this knock on the door, and when there was no response to your asking who it was, that's when you thought in your mind that this was the police, the ISU?

ANTONY MACI: That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE: When you thought it was the ISU, what did you think that they, that means the ISU, were going to do?

ANTONY MACI: I thought they were going to arrest me, and detain me, and I was avoiding that.  And I was in possession of an unlicensed AK-47 rifle.

MR SHANE: Now, besides you not getting any response to you asking who was there when you heard this knock, you mentioned something about kicking the door, on the door.  This person that was there was kicking on the door.

ANTONY MACI: Yes, sir.

MR SHANE: What type of kicking was that?

ANTONY MACI: It was a rough kick, he was trying to kick the door open, that is why I thought it was the police.

MR SHANE: So is it a similar way that the police behaved when they came knocking on doors?

ANTONY MACI: That is correct, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that a bit of expert leading Mr Shane?  Do you have personal knowledge of that?

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman I imagine the applicant does, because he was previously detained.  I was just, it's coming from him.

CHAIRPERSON: Precisely, do you have it?  How can you put it to him?

MR SHANE: I don't have personal knowledge of that.

CHAIRPERSON: So leave it to him to describe then.

MR SHANE: If this person who was on the other side of the door, the deceased Sikelo, if he responded to you when you asked who was there, would he have been shot?

ANTONY MACI: No I wouldn't have shot him.

MR SHANE: Because Sikelo was not a political enemy.

ANTONY MACI: Yes, he was not.

MR SHANE: And the only reason that you shot him was because in your mind it was the police on the other end of the door?

ANTONY MACI: That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE: Now you say when the door opened you opened fire with your AK-47.

ANTONY MACI: That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE: Did you shoot through the door ...(intervention)