Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-30

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, we were specifically tasked to interrogate Mr Raymond Lalla.  There were various aspects which Mr Lalla refused to provide any information about during that period in time.

MR VISSER: Information that you did not possess?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And then finally, Mr Greyling, you state that your memory has failed you regarding the asthma pump.  Today after your recollection has been refreshed, can you recall anything about an asthma pump?

MR GREYLING: That is correct, I can recall it.  During the interrogation of Mr Raymond Lalla he had an asthma attack and Colonel Botha also asked me to go and look for an asthma pump as soon as possible.

MR VISSER: And is it also correct that there was a pharmacy in the same building where these two gentlemen were detained?

MR GREYLING: That may be so, I cannot recall specifically but I can recall that it wasn't very far from the police office.

MR VISSER: And did you then obtain such an asthma pump and return it?

MR GREYLING: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: Were you present to see whether Mr Lalla used the asthma pump?

MR GREYLING: I can recall something like that very vaguely, I know that after a period of time Mr Lalla was once again acting normally.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser.  Mr Gordhan?

MR VISSER: Sorry, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR VISSER: Can you assist the Committee, according to your recollection how long did the assault of Mr Gordhan last and after that how long did the assault of Mr Lalla last, this suffocation process?

MR GREYLING: I can recall specifically that the suffocation process on Mr Lalla did not take place for very long seeing as he suffered an asthma attack and with regard to Mr Gordhan, it's difficult to tell you exactly how long it took seeing as this was approximately twelve years ago.

MR VISSER: What is your recollection?

MR GREYLING: I cannot say that it lasted for longer than ten to fifteen minutes because during that assault I was called out of an office and requested to go to the office where Mr Gordhan was tortured.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you weren't present the whole time that Mr Gordhan was being tortured?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, I cannot respond to that because I was in an office with Warrant Officer Basson when Colonel Botha called me and there were no other persons who I saw at that stage because it was reasonably dark and that is when I was asked to assist with the suffocation.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you went into the office where Mr Gordhan was, was he already - had the procedure started, was he being suffocated?

MR GREYLING: After I had gone outside Mr Gordhan already lay on his back on the ground on the floor and there was a bag or something over his eyes and Colonel Botha simply asked me to hold his legs down while he was applying the suffocation technique.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Gordhan, do you have any questions you would like to put to this applicant?

MR GORDHAN: Just a few, Chairperson.  Earlier, I think around paragraph 4 you said that Mr Botha put certain questions to me which I did not answer.  You of course were not present in the earlier part of my interaction with Mr Botha so you actually wouldn't be aware whether he put questions and whether I actually answered them?

MR GREYLING: That's absolutely right, Mr Gordhan, I must have been confused, yourself with Mr Lalla at that stage.

MR GORDHAN: The second question, you operated as you say under the instruction of Mr Botha to do what you did?

MR GREYLING: That is correct.

MR GORDHAN: If you had a choice is it your inclination to assault detainees or are you one of the nice guys?

MR GREYLING: No Sir, if we wanted to assault yourself or Mr Lalla I think that we could have done it long before that, I think we were there for approximately three weeks already.

MR GORDHAN: That's right.  In terms of the time you have already conceded you haven't been there at the beginning of the assault, it could be as long as fifteen minutes, it could have been as long as twenty minutes or twenty five minutes in all as well?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, according to my recollection, it could not have been longer than 15 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the time that you were in the room with Mr Gordhan?

MR GREYLING: Yes that is correct.

MR GORDHAN: No, the question I'm putting to you Mr Greyling is that in all it could have been twenty, twenty five minutes because you weren't there all the time?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, I cannot testify regarding things which took place and which I was not involved.  I can only give evidence regarding that period of time during which I was present.

ADV BOSMAN: Very briefly, is it your evidence that you spent at the most fifteen minutes in the room itself?

MR GREYLING: Ten to fifteen minutes.

ADV BOSMAN: Very well, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan, you may proceed.

MR GORDHAN: Again, Mr Greyling, I might not have understood you correctly, but you said that from the beginning the questions around the so-called hour have been put and from the beginning I refused to answer them, did I get you right?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, as I have already said I was not present when Colonel Botha initially spoke to Mr Gordhan so I cannot respond in any way.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were present were any questions put by Mr Botha to Mr Gordhan in your presence?

MR GREYLING: That is correct, Colonel Botha repeatedly asked Mr Gordhan various questions.  I can remember particularly with regard to the identity of The Owl, that Mr Gordhan flatly refused to provide any information with regard to The Owl.

MR GORDHAN: What other questions do you remember, Mr Greyling?

MR GREYLING: I can recall that he asked Mr Gordhan about certain aspects pertaining to his involvement with operation Vula but I cannot recall the specific detail attached to that.

MR GORDHAN: And you were present during your stay in that room, you were present when Mr Botha was swearing and hurling abuse and threatening me that I wouldn't see my family again and so on.  You would of course recall that as well?

MR GREYLING: Chairperson, at that particular point it may have been but this was twelve years ago and I cannot recall particulars.  It is impossible for me to recall something like that.

MR GORDHAN: It's only nine years ago, Mr Greyling, almost to the day.  Last question, Chairperson.  Do you have any regret about the fact that you participated in this assault and what's your approach to the reconciliation question?

MR GREYLING: Well, Chairperson, I think that that would be the reason why all of us are here.  It is not only about telling the truth, it is also about the reconciliation process, that is what it is about, that is why we are here.

MR LAX: You haven't actually answered the issue of whether you regret your actions?

MR GREYLING: Yes Chairperson, I regret my share in this matter.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR GORDHAN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Lalla, would you like to put any questions to the applicant?

MR LALLA: No, I think it's more for comment.  I want to state that Mr Greyling, on the night that I was tortured, yes he did fetch a pump.  Whether I suffered from asthma it's another story, but under doctor's advice from Mr Botha, he did fetch a pump and on the same night Mr Greyling was traumatised by the fact that he had tortured us and he had apologised and he was in a state.  I just thought the Committee should be aware of this.  Subsequently, after that I'm not sure for whatever reason, but he was removed from the interrogating team that was interrogating me.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lalla.

MS THABETHE: No questions Mr Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel, do you have any re-examination?