Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1997-06-11

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkuna, in all fairness to you, when you say you will not ask for amnesty for the other counts, your statement comes as a result of an altercation as it were between you and Mr Patel, counsel for the victims and we will not be noting that you are in fact not proceeding with an application for amnesty in respect of those counts, until and unless we hear from your counsel later that it is in fact your decision.
	I don't like to rely on uninformed statements, only on legal aspects from lay people.

CONRAD NKUNA: Chairperson, I think there is a misunderstanding because I said even the court found otherwise, I am also seeking amnesty on the other matters.
	I think there was a misunderstanding.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black?

MR BLACK: Mr Nkuna, as I understand your evidence, the first time that you heard that Mr Shabangu was supposed to be a State agent or collaborator, was when Soli and Derick arrived at your house, shortly before the attack in November of 1992, is that correct?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is correct.

MR BLACK: And am I correct in understanding that when they told you that this was also the first time, let me put it this way, that you also heard that Mr Shabangu had been involved, allegedly involved in the attack on your brother, is that correct?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is correct.

MR BLACK: Now, was the situation this that when you heard this, did you speak to your brother Joe and say look, there is going to be an attack on Mr Shabangu?

CONRAD NKUNA: I will say I did talk to him, but when we were discussing the mission, we were all present.

MR BLACK: And did he then say to you, look don't worry, Chris Hani will approve, or has approved to give you the assurance that it would be okay to attack Mr Shabangu?

CONRAD NKUNA: Yes, he did say that and later Soli and the other confirmed the very same statement.

MR BLACK: Now this was how many days before the attack, was it the day before or ...?

CONRAD NKUNA: I have a problem with time, I can't remember how many days before the attack.

MR BLACK: But was it shortly, very shortly before the attack that Mr Shabangu's name came up for the first time?

CONRAD NKUNA: It wasn't a very long time before after that we had to carry out that task.

MR BLACK: Okay.  And this was the first time I assume that your brother Joe Nkuna, had mentioned to you or told you that Shabangu was an agent and one of his attackers or did he tell you that at all?  Let me phrase it in fairness to you.
	Before Soli and Derick came to you with this information that Shabangu is allegedly a State agent and that he was one of the attackers of your brother, did your brother ever say to you, listen I knew who attacked me, I know that that Shabangu is also one of the State agents that you people were looking for.  Did he ever say that before Derick and Soli told you?

CONRAD NKUNA: He didn't.

MR BLACK: Now, you lived with your brother, is that not so?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is correct, I was staying with him.

MR BLACK: And is it also not so that before Derick and Soli arrived in October or November of 1992 at your house, you had as a member of the ANC and as a member of your brother's faction of the ANC, had obviously been keen to identify State agents and collaborators.

CONRAD NKUNA: That is correct.  We wanted to know who these State agents are.

MR BLACK: And I am sure your brother in his position that he held and being your brother, if he had been able to identify an State agent or one of his attackers, he would as soon as he identified those people, he would let you know?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is correct.

MR BLACK: Yes.  I just want to put it to you that this, I think it is clear that all this information that you received about a meeting with Chris Hani in the SACP offices and that he had approved of the mission, that just comes from your brother, Joe.

ADV TEE: Objection.  It is not clear and it is going to be argued strenuously that it is not clear.  In fact repeatedly the witness has been mentioning the name Soli, if the cross-examiner can put the question fairly.

MR BLACK: The meeting at the SACP office with Chris Hani, who gave you that information?

CONRAD NKUNA: Joe told me about it at the time with his planning the mission.

MR BLACK: Yes, that is in October or November of 1992.  The fact that Chris Hani had approved of the mission, who gave you that information?

CONRAD NKUNA: Can you repeat the question please.

MR BLACK: Who gave you the information that Chris Hani specifically in person, had approved of that mission?

CONRAD NKUNA: That was Joe.

MR BLACK: Yes, okay.  Now, did Joe tell you when he had given approval of the mission?

CONRAD NKUNA: He didn't tell me the time.

MR BLACK: You didn't question him?

CONRAD NKUNA: I didn't.

MR BLACK: Right.  Now just for the record purposes, you are a member of the ANC at the time, is that not so?  You testified that you were an active member of the ANC?

CONRAD NKUNA: I would say so because I was a member of the Youth League.

MR BLACK: Okay.  Now do you know that at this time in October or November, or during 1992, the year of 1992, let's put it that way, do you know who was head of MK, the Commander?

CONRAD NKUNA: Can you be specific? Do you mean nationally or regionally?

MR BLACK: Nationally.  The national head.

CONRAD NKUNA: It was Chris Hani.

MR BLACK: Is that what you thought?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is correct.

MR BLACK: Well I will put it to you that you are factually incorrect.  That Joe Modise was the head.  Chris Hani was a Commissar at that stage.

CONRAD NKUNA: I didn't know as you put it.  I used to know that Chris Hani was the one who is in charge of the MK.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Black, is that factually correct what you are putting to the witness?

MR BLACK: That is my information that has been given to me, yes.  But if necessary, I will verify that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Please verify before putting things as facts to the witness.

MR BLACK: I will verify that, I have made attempts to verify that, but for argument when it comes to that stage, I will obviously ...

SISI KHAMPEPE: And do recall that you are talking of the period between 1990 or 1992 to 1994.

MR BLACK: I did mention during the year of 1992 and I am specifically referring to the head of MK and not - on a National level.
	Who identified the house of Mr Shabangu?

CONRAD NKUNA: I was the one who pointed the house.

MR BLACK: I have no further questions to put to this witness now, thank you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Nkuna, for how long did Soli and Derick stay at your brother's house before the attack on Mr Shabangu was launched?

CONRAD NKUNA: It was about not over about three weeks.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So within those three weeks, was there any recognisance which was undertaken in order to take into account logistical consideration for the successful execution of the mission?
	In other words did you at any stage accompany the cadres concerned to point out Shabangu's house before the attack was launched?

CONRAD NKUNA: Yes, we did but it was far away, we didn't get a chance to go there and we had to go on that particular day we have to attack.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When Soli and Derick arrived at your brother's house, were they armed with any kind of weaponry?

CONRAD NKUNA: Yes, they were armed.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So they brought along their own arms?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What kind of arms did they bring along?

CONRAD NKUNA: They had handgrenades and AK47's.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is that all?  How many AK47's did they bring along?

CONRAD NKUNA: I remember they had one.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The one which you carried on the day of the attack, was it the AK47 which belonged to one of them?

CONRAD NKUNA: That is correct.