Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

MR DE JAGER: Yes, no, I assume that, but Dawid and Willem had been drinking since that morning when the bar opened?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes, that is what I understand.

MR DE JAGER: If you wanted to teach the government a lesson, why did you go to the premises of a private company and commit a theft there?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Because they apparently transported some government goods.

MR DE JAGER: You see, you initially said that your objective was to attack soft targets of the government?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes, that's correct.

MR DE JAGER: And in doing this you deviated from that objective completely, you went to a private property to attack that.   What political objective could you have been pursuing by doing this?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Because they also transported government goods, across the country they transported various goods.

MR DE JAGER: So would you have targeted any private person conveying state goods?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes, that's correct.

MR DE JAGER: Now why was this never referred to as your objective, why did you never say that, "We would have attacked anybody that conveyed goods for the state"?

MR VAN STRAATEN: It just didn't come out like that at the trial because we were lay people and with our confession, I thought maybe I would be able to trace Robbie Coetzee and he would be able to assist us and clarify the matter.

MR DE JAGER: But you testified in court, didn't you, or was it only your brother who testified?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Only Dawid testified.
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MR DE JAGER: /...
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MR DE JAGER: Now why did you not testify and tell the Court that that was your objective?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Because the story didn't quite work out the way we wanted it to work out and I then made use of my right to silence.

MR DE JAGER: But if you'd told the Court that Robbie had told you to do this and that, it might have been in your favour, is that not so?

MR VAN STRAATEN: That's correct, but at that stage, it was before his death, I just left him out of the case completely to return to him at a later stage, so that he could perhaps help us.

MR DE JAGER: Thank you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: (?):   You applied for amnesty.   Who filled in the form, whose handwriting is this, is that...

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes, that's mine, Adriaan.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And you swore that it was the truth?

MR VAN STRAATEN: That's correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And there you say, paragraph 11(a)
"Yes, I, Adriaan van Straaten, gave the order to kill the two black night watchmen, and I was acting in accordance with my political views."
Did you give the order?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes, that's correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: That they must be killed?

MR VAN STRAATEN: The order was given to tie them up...

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No, did you give the order that they must be killed?   You swore in this application that that is what you'd done?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes, yes I swore that it was the truth, but at that stage we didn't actually know what was going on
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and what was happening and that is why I filled it in in
this way.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well I don't understand this, Mr Van Straaten, 20th of February 1996, this was when this statement was made, and then you said that you gave the order, you must have known whether you did it or not?

MR VAN STRAATEN: As I told you, chairperson, at that stage I was really desperate, and that's the way I filled in the form, and I just swore that it was the truth because maybe it would have been our last chance.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And you said that, if I understand you correctly, that you pleaded not guilty to murder an guilty to the robbery, is that correct?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You also filled in a form, you applied, in terms of section 18 of Act 34 of 1995, to the Amnesty Committee.  Do you know this form?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: There you said that
"Murder, to which I pleaded guilty, robbery with aggravating circumstances, to which I pleaded not guilty."
Is that not so?

MR VAN STRAATEN: I don't know.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: That's page 7.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Who killed the second night watchman?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Gideon must have killed him, because he was guarding him.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And you didn't hear anything?

MR VAN STRAATEN: No, chairperson.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is it therefore true that he was also hit on
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the head with a piece of rock, with a stone?

MR VAN STRAATEN: What I understood from Gideon is yes, that that is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And the chisel was also used?

MR VAN STRAATEN: I don't know whether it was used on the second night watchman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No, no, I think I'm making a mistake there.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: (?):  You have described yourself, at least then, as having been a supporter of the AWB?

MR VAN STRAATEN: That is correct, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: And I believe Mr Coetzee, Robert Coetzee, was a member of the AWB, like you said?

MR VAN STRAATEN: That is correct, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you committed these offences, you were not in any way committing them in your capacity as a supporter of the AWB?

MR VAN STRAATEN: From my point of view, with regard to the situation, he forced me, to a certain extent, to join the AWB, but I refused.   Since I agreed with some of the positions of the AWB, I saw myself as a supporter of the AWB.

CHAIRPERSON: You never discussed these offences with him before you committed them?

MR VAN STRAATEN: He only told me that I should do something in the Vaal Driehoek, Vaal Triangle area, which I knew well, and that is when we committed this crime.

CHAIRPERSON: You never discussed the commission of these particular offences with him?

MR VAN STRAATEN: He only told me that I should hit some target or do some act and then we could see what further
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actions could be taken.

CHAIRPERSON: He did not know that evening that you were going to take somebody's truck, he did not know that you were going to kill two black night watchmen, he did not know, did he?

MR VAN STRAATEN: No, he did not know that we were going to remove the trucks, but the next day I informed him that the two black night watchmen were dead.

CHAIRPERSON: But from your deeds, didn't he?

MR VAN STRAATEN: That is correct, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: That must have indicated to you that at least members of the AWB that you are in contact with, did not approve or support what you did, isn't it, because he did not even arrange legal defence for you?

MR VAN STRAATEN: I would not say so, Mr Chair, he tried to play cat and mouse with me and said he would return to me, but then he simply disappeared.

CHAIRPERSON: That's long ago that this person did not want to be involved in this mess of yours?

MR VAN STRAATEN: That's then what we deduced, that's how the matter turned out in the way in which it did.

CHAIRPERSON: Out of pure racial hatred, you remember that?

MR VAN STRAATEN: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying to us that you don't distinguish between murder committed through political objectives or motivation, on the one hand, and murder committed as the result of pure racial hatred, you don't distinguish between the two, is that what you are saying to us?

MR VAN STRAATEN: That is correct, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you serious?   You are saying that you are motivated, you didn't even say you were motivated by racial
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hatred, you said by pure racial hatred?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Because we grew up in this way, I can say that at that time it was difficult to accept the situation.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: In your letter of the 20th of November 1992, this letter was addressed to Mr Van der Westhuizen, and in this letter you say that racial hatred was the reason for this murder?