Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: In regard to Oupa Makhubalo's incident, we were in the office - all of us were present and it was in the afternoon though I'm not sure of the exact time.  Sergeant Mamome - he came in a hurry at around 5, then he made us assemble, then they said we should go and fetch Makhubalo, he's in a certain place.  We should bring him or if he runs away we should shoot him.
	Then we asked the reason - it was the time when they murdered the person because there was a certain boy who was killed at Vulamasango.  We went out in a hurry - that is Shaw - Mamome said it's Shaw who instructed that we should go and fetch that person.  We went in a hurry to the place where he was told, then he said that information came with his informer so he said, it is there - if we go there we're going to find him at that place.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Motsamai, may you please give the interpreters a change to interpret please.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Thank you Sir.  We went out in a hurry.  We went to the place where Mamome said that he was there - at Gala Street at the second house.  We were in a Kombi.  It was myself, Mamome, Mtyala, Lesale, Miningwa - I'm not sure as whether this person was around and that is Ramosoeu, I don't know but I think he was there because we were quite a number.  I just went in the front seat and the Kombi was driven by Sergeant Mamome - we went to that place.
	When we arrived at ...[inaudible] house, we found that Oupa was going through the gate, then we stopped - the he turned - Sergeant Mamome pulled the gun.  He wanted to shoot him the time he was running before he jumped the fence to the other house - he missed him and then the bullet went straight to - was straight to the shack house  ...[intervention]

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, they asked you to go a little bit slowly because people need time to interpret.

ADV MEMANI: Mamome missed.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Mamome missed.  That straight bullet hit a shack house behind the ...[inaudible] house.  We went out of the car - all people who were in the car, then we spread around the township so that we were able to catch him before he goes far.  Together with Sergeant Mamome, we went out of the car.  In other words, all of us went out of the car, then we left the car there.
	He went to Makhubalo's direction - that is Sergeant Mamome - he jumped the fence.  When I turned around I was not able to verify who went where, I could only hear the gunshots.   Where - on the direction of the particular gunshot I'd go to that direction as whether he was shot or not shot.  
	He proceeded through Kings Street.  he went to a certain corner house in the yard and when I appeared on the corner of Kings Street just in front of him - I didn't mention that person here, the name of the person here - I didn't mention his name here - that is Constable Morakile who was shooting in that Oupa Makhubalo's direction but he missed him.
	He ran to the next door's house, he jumped a fence then he jumped on the first - on the other side of the house.  At that time I was in Kings Street.  Sergeant Mamome was in front of him, he shot but he missed him.  Then he was now tired - he went to the street and then he ran through the street, he - I think he was tired and saying, if they want to kill me, let them kill me.
	Then Sergeant Mamome went to him and tripped him, he fell on the ground - he kicked him on the face.  I arrived him and then we arrested him.  We took him to the office.  In the office we continued with the assault - he was beaten.  Anyone who was there took part in the assault.  We left him like that - we handed him over to the officers.  They officers called the people who were investigating his case.  
	We were asked what we did then Sergeant Mamome explained that we shot but there is nowhere where we made a written statement about that shooting but we were able to collect the bullets which were coming from the office.  As to whether where Sergeant Mamome found them, I don't know.

ADV MEMANI: Now that concludes the applicants application Sir - his evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment at this stage.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: (s.u.o.)
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: The applicant had finished, hadn't he?

ADV MEMANI: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Anybody wish to ask any questions now?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, we're in your hands.  Clearly we would want ask some questions of Mr Motsamai.  There are two issues that may influence that decision, as to whether that should occur right now.  The first is that we do have as we know, the victims relating to both the applications of Mr Ngo as well as Mr Motsamai.  It may be that you may find it convenient at this stage to deal with them.
	The other aspect of the matter is - although we are quite willing and prepared to commence with cross-examination of Mr Motsamai - you will appreciate that this morning he has given a huge amount of new evidence which does not appear from his application.  One of the things that happened this morning is that the whole list of names at page 141 have become separate incidents as it were, in regard to which we would have to of course take instructions but Mr Chairman, we're in your hands and certainly we could possibly use the time fruitfully by commencing at least and seeing how far we can get.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it is fair Mr Visser, to say that many of us were taken by surprise I think that they were also separate incidents.  The wording of the application appeared to indicate rather that it was one incident with many people involved and I sympathize with the problems you may have in that regard but can you wait a moment?
	Although I sympathize with your problems, I do think it would be better if we could deal with and dispose of this applicant and have the victims a separated thing, as we said before.

MR VISSER: It does appear to be the correct pragmatic way to go Mr Chairman, although I must just tell you that of course because I have so many clients right at the moment, I would not be able to take instructions during the course of the day.  I've made arrangements for  consultation tonight in order to deal with fresh matters that have arisen.  I would definitely have to ask you indulgence that whatever happens today with the cross-examination, that I would be granted an opportunity tomorrow to tie it up Mr Chairman, thank you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Can you just hold it for a minute?

CHAIRPERSON: I haven't had an opportunity of comparing the list we were given of clients, with the person's named.  Have  you any questions to put to this applicant Mr Stander?

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, there is in fact quite a lot of questions that I can ask him.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, perhaps we could start with you if you don't ...[inaudible]

MR STANDER: I must also confirm that there's a lot of things that has been said whilst he was testifying so that you should bear in mind that I also will have to consult at a later stage to brush up on certain items but with your consent I'll be able to proceed at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think that you would find yourself in quite the embarrassing position that Mr Visser might on, regards not having instructions.  It might affect the whole channel of his cross-examination whereas I don't think it would with you.  You will be as ...[inaudible]

CROSS- MR STANDER: That is so Mr Chairman.  I'll be starting asking the applicant questions on the same basis that he applied for amnesty, in other words starting from the 1st paragraph going on until the 14th incident if that will be find with you.
	Mr Motsamai, you told us in great length how it came about that Mr George Musi had to be murdered.  What I do want to know from you is, what happened after he was murdered?  Did anybody give this information as to whom was responsible for his murder?