Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-26

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the next applicant is Paulos Mbatha.

CHAIRPERSON: Paulos Mbatha, yes.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will take a break now, we will come back at quarter to five.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: This afternoon we propose just hearing the evidence-in-chief of Mr Mbatha.  This is Mr Mbatha, is it?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And then the cross-examination can then commence tomorrow morning, unless of course counsel is enthusiastic to start immediately.

MR BERGER: Speaking for myself I ...(indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.
	Mr Mbatha, what are your full names?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it Mvuleleni or Mvigeleni?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: Mvigeleni.

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.
	Yes, Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, just before I start, in the bundle you would only find two pages relating to this applicant and that is page 209 and 210.  That is a request for further particulars.
	At the beginning of this session a bundle of documents in relation to this applicant was handed to the Committee and all other parties, which includes a Form 1, the annexure, his reply to the further particulars and an affidavit by the applicant.  I suggest, Chairperson, that we mark the documents 210(a) to 210(i).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom, I'm still struggling to get hold of those documents.  I know that they were furnished to us - oh, I beg your pardon, yes very well, I do have those documents now.  That consist of Form 1 ...(intervention)

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Chairperson, if ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Which is dated the 7th of August 1998.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Chairperson, my suggestion is that we mark Form 1: 210(a) (b) and (c).

CHAIRPERSON: Any objection to that course?  So Form 1 will be marked - did you say ...

MR STRYDOM: 210(a) (b) and (c), and the annexure to that Form 1, 210(d) and (e).

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MR STRYDOM: The further particulars, 210(f) and (g), and lastly the affidavit, 210(h) and (i).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: There is still no sign of Mr Sibongeleni Mkhize?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, since the beginning I've instructed the other applicants to try and get hold of him and to warn him to be here.  At this stage there is still no sign.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Yes, very well, proceed.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you.
	Mr Mbatha, I want you to have a look at the so-called Form 1, I'm going to show you your signature on page 210(c).  Do you confirm your signature?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: And do also confirm the contents of this document as it has been translated to you?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: In paragraph 9.4 you stated
"I had a spear.  I was part of Chonco's group.  I stabbed two people.  The one person died, the other one ran away."
Do you confirm that?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: In paragraph 11(b) you stated
"I heard for the first time of the attack on the 17th of June 1992, at the stadium.  Chonco said that we should attack Boipatong because we had enough of the people from Boipatong."
Is that right?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Now there's also an annexure to this Form 1, which is actually a reply to some of the questions in this document.  Do you agree with the contents of the answers as they've been translated to you?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you agree with the political objective for the attack as set out in this document?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Is that the reason why you were part of the attackers on the 17th of June 1992?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Then certain questions were asked and answers were provided.  These answers as they have been shown to you, are those the answers to the questions on page 209 and 210?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: And just for the record, your reply appears on page 210(f) and (g).  Then you made an affidavit on page 210(h) to 210(i), do you confirm your signature on the last page, 210(i)?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: And do you also confirm the contents of this document, the affidavit?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: In Boipatong itself on the night of the attack, can you just describe your role and what you did?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I went to work on the 17th of June, that was in the morning and I came back late in the evening and I found people coming out of the arena saying that they were going to Serele and I said: "Thank you for a long time I have been wishing that such a thing could happen, not knowing what to do seeing that I didn't have the power."

MR STRYDOM: Why did you say thank you, why did you want to go to Boipatong?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I was very angry in those days as a result of the Boipatong problem, the death of people day in and day out.  My brother was killed there as well.  Those were the reasons that bothered me.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from Boipatong, were you cross with the residents of other townships in the Vaal Triangle?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: They too, we couldn't walk freely around the townships that were a distance from the hostel but because Boipatong was closer, killing us from just a distance, that is why I got so angry, overly angry.

MR STRYDOM: And why did you want to attack the residents of Boipatong, or let me ask you this, who in Boipatong did you want to attack?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I wanted the so-called defence.  I didn't know this defence.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know who are the people who supported the defence, as you call them?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: It was the community of Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: Were you cross with the community of Boipatong as well?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: Yes, but I very much wanted the actual people who were killing people in that area.

MR STRYDOM: Now just to move a step back, at the stadium before you went to Boipatong, tell me who gave the order and what was the order.

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I did not get that but I later on discovered that it was Damarra.  You see, I couldn't go to the stadium.

MR STRYDOM: Why not?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I had just arrived from work.

MR STRYDOM: During that period did you work a normal day shift or what?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: Yes, it was a day shift.  I was working during the day only, not in the evenings.

MR STRYDOM: Where did you work?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: I working at the Sam Jam(?) contract.

MR STRYDOM: Whilst you were in Boipatong, did you see any police or military vehicles?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: No, not whilst we were inside Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see any military vehicles or police vehicles at a later stage?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: There is one vehicle that I saw coming from the Vanderbijl Park direction, moving towards Sebokeng.

MR STRYDOM: When did you see that vehicle?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: At the time shortly after we exited from the township.

MR STRYDOM: Now in Boipatong itself you say that you stabbed two people, the one died and the other ran away, can you just give particulars of these instances, starting with the instance where you killed somebody?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: The situation resulted from circumstances in which I found myself.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, just give more particulars about what you did in Boipatong.

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: My participation pertained to the killing of people or the dying of people at Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbatha, we understand from the affidavit that is before us that you stabbed a person who died and that the other person that you stabbed ran away, is that right?

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What your counsel wants you to do is to tell us in your own words what you did in Boipatong, do you understand the question?