Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-24

UNKNOWN: Yes, during that period I fought for the government.  We did tracking, we caught a lot of communists, we were in contact with them yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And then you left the South African Defence Force and the AWB was for you a similar vehicle during that period?

UNKNOWN: What I experienced in the Defence Force was for me a new principle, a new idea.  Although I was member I was not active, I was involved in the Defence Force but when I left, the ideology and the objective something that I could make my own because of the circumstances why I left the Defence Force after they handed over Angola and South West and handed over the struggle that we fought.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That is a point I wanted to make, that at that stage the head of the Defence Force was Viljoen in other words your leader in that war used you, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: I would not say my leader at that stage but my commanding officer yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: He was your commanding officer?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And then your next commanding officer was Mr Terreblanche?

UNKNOWN: That is correct yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And he also forced you to eat dirt.

UNKNOWN: I think it is in the Afrikaner's bloodline.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Sir, concerning Welkom, if you look at the statements of Mr Barnard and Myburgh, they didn't want you to know anything about what was going on there, you and van Coller just drove with them.  Your words was "We drove shotgun."

UNKNOWN: He said that I must go with him.  He gave me the order that he needs a vehicle.  He did not give us a destination.  He didn't give a reason or a purpose, he said that we are going to pick up an undercover person and that was the impression that I was placed under and that is why I drove with him.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You drove shotgun and you did nothing else?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And the Saturday afternoon, I assume it is the 23rd, that was the weekend 23rd, 24th, you arrived together and then you went to a smallholding in Klerksdorp?

UNKNOWN: When we turned from Welkom, yes.  Basically when you come from Welkom through Klerksdorp on the left-hand side there are a few smallholdings and we directly went in there, it is directly next to the tar road.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Whose smallholding was it?

UNKNOWN: No, I do not know.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: When you loaded the items did you know that they were pipe bombs?

UNKNOWN: I did make enquiries and they said: "Yes, they are pipe bombs".

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And this was taking to the game farm?

UNKNOWN: Yes, through Ventersdorp where we first got something and then went to the game farm.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: If you look at Barnard and Myburgh's statements it seems as if those pipe bombs were immediately taken to Koesterfontein?

UNKNOWN: When we arrived at the game farm we opened the doors, lit a cigarette and immediately the people were there and they said to us we must take the bags, the pipe bombs out of the vehicle.  Some of the pipe bombs that I observed, I was not involved in the unloading of it, some of the pipe bombs in the bags let us say were put the hall there where we slept.  We took them to one of the toilets in this building.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: It did not go back to Koesterfontein?

UNKNOWN: I do not know. That it where my involvement with the pipe bombs ended.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So in that day you were used as a pawn?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You did not do anything actively?

UNKNOWN: No, I just had a headache of the explosives in the vehicle.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Fertiliser or explosives?

UNKNOWN: No, the pipe bombs were in our vehicle, and it is a terrible headache that you get from it.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And you continued with the actual order that was given to you and that is to remain at the game farm in order to protect the borders and the farmers in that area?

UNKNOWN: That is correct, that is what was told to us and the reason why we have to go to the game farm.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: And that is what you did there up till the Sunday evening when Prinsloo and Myburgh arrived.

UNKNOWN: Prinsloo and Myburgh?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: General Prinsloo and Koper Myburgh.

UNKNOWN: I do not know when they arrived there.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But later that Sunday evening you were woken up and I assume at that stage that Koper Myburgh and Nico Prinsloo were already there?

UNKNOWN: I did not see Nico Prinsloo, I saw Koper Myburgh and Clifton Barnard and the people who were with us in the hall I did see them.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So you didn't see any leader figure?

MR PRINSLOO: With respect the applicant said there was no leader. He said he did not observe them or see them and they woke him up and there was a meeting before that and he was woken up for that.  It is misleading to say that there were no leading figures there.  To go to the point that was referred to the time and the run-up of events, with respect Mr Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Mr Chairperson, if I can just put it as follows
	Did you see any leaders at the game farm?

UNKNOWN: Yes, but not on that specific question that you put to me.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Who were the leaders at the game farm?

UNKNOWN: At one stage I saw Nico Prinsloo, Brigadier Leon van der Merwe, Cliff was there, one General Cruywagen as well as at a later stage General Ackerman.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But Cliff and Koper were your co-colleagues who worked with you in the office, they were not leaders as such in the Generals and staff?

UNKNOWN: No, they are not general staff.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Did any person whose name you just mentioned of the Generals in staff that Sunday evening give you instructions and told you: "Men you must take pipe bombs and target taxi ranks in order for them to explode there, the target is black"?  Any of the Generals in staff did they ever convey that to you?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, I did not see any of the Generals in staff.  The orders were given to us, as a militant person, a person who comes from the Defence Force, the officer above me will not give me an order if he did not receive an order so my conclusion or view there was or what I accepted was that it came directly from them.  I did not find a General who said go plant a bomb J J.  I had Commandants and people above me who gave me those orders.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: So although there were generals in staff that Sunday evening at the game farm, did not one of them the officers from the officers corps of your men give such an order?

UNKNOWN: After I saw the Generals and with the orders that I received it would have come from them but a General did not directly give me an order.
PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KRIEL

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

MR MOTLAUNG: I hope you heard that one?

UNKNOWN: Ja, I heard you.

MR MOTLAUNG: Okay thank you.  Sir, having had a glimpse of that video excerpt I have some idea of the war talk that you say went around.  Now tell me during this war talk was it ever mentioned to you as to who your targets would be in the war?

UNKNOWN: Is this now before the election, before the bombings, in the meetings itself?

MR MOTLAUNG: Let me put it this way, at any stage before the bombings.

UNKNOWN: I can put it to you this way, that the general target in this time and period in every meeting or in any meeting at that stage was the people that was against us for the Volkstaat,
in other words I will say the majority were black, the ANC, the SACP and of course the National Party but ninety nine percent I will say yes, it was black.

MR MOTLAUNG: Including the people who belonged to the IFP?

UNKNOWN: No, that is the one percent of the blacks that we weren't against because we were together with the IFP.