Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: As far as the family of Sizwe Kondile is 
concerned Mr du Plessis, you certainly crossed the line.

H B DU PLESSIS: I am sorry to hear that.

UNKNOWN: And perhaps it would be best if I put it in my 
client's own words, Mrs Kondile actually feels that people like 
you ought not to be free in a civilised society.

H B DU PLESSIS: I have no comment regarding that.

MR NYOKA: Thank you Mr 
Chairman.  Good afternoon Mr du Plessis.

H B DU PLESSIS: Good afternoon.

MR NYOKA: You basically considered two options before you 
decided to kill Mr Kondile, namely to detain him further or to 
charge him, those are the only options that you considered, is that 
correct?

H B DU PLESSIS: That is all that I can think of.

MR NYOKA: You must have been very experienced as a security 
officer?

H B DU PLESSIS: Yes I had good experience.

MR NYOKA: Why did you not consider the following options - 
firstly, testing his loyalty by giving him false information about 
your informers or principal agent just to test what his direction 
was going to be before trusting within only two week or three 
weeks, why did you not do that?  Maybe that would have averted 
his death.

H B DU PLESSIS: Well in the first instance I did not do that.  
That's point number one.
	Secondly, if I provided him with false information regarding 
a principal agent I would caused somebody else's death.

MR NYOKA: And you said that you have belief in the Western 
style of democracy, and one of the basis of detaining and 
interrogating a person is a criminal prosecution, why did you not 
pursue that line of criminal prosecution?

H B DU PLESSIS: Your Honour I don't know what you are 
referring to or actually what you are asking.  If I had done that 
the agent and the network would have been exposed.

MR NYOKA: I am saying that as a State employee you owe your 
allegiance to obeying the laws of the country and you said in your 
background that you believed in the Western democratic lifestyle, 
why was that not your main focus of criminally prosecuting this 
person, other than killing, death?

H B DU PLESSIS: The fact is initially I started to charge him 
but later on I saw that he was more valuable to be used as an 
informer.

MR NYOKA: Did you regard it as your fault that he did, the 
alleged turnabout, did you regard it as your fault?

H B DU PLESSIS: No.

MR NYOKA: If then it was not your fault why then did you not 
refer your problem further on in the command structure for better 
alternatives or suggestions, because it was not your fault that he 
turned-about, why did you not refer it further?

H B DU PLESSIS: Your Honour I did what I felt was necessary. 
 I don't think one can do much.  This is how it happened.  We can 
speculate for a whole week.

MR NYOKA: No I am not speculating.  Specifically I am saying 
that why did you not refer this to the Regional Commissioner of 
the South African Police, firstly;  secondly, to the National 
Commissioner of the South African Police, and thirdly, to the 
Minister of Law and Order for better solutions, why did you not 
do that?

H B DU PLESSIS: I approached General Erasmus and he 
provided a solution at that stage.

MR NYOKA: If you felt like not criminally prosecuting the 
deceased, despite the clear evidence in front of you rather than 
kill him, why could not have killed him politically by causing him 
to agree on tape for working for you and then sending the tape 
indirectly, or directly, to the ANC in Lesotho.  He will not have 
been believed with whatever information he brought?

H B DU PLESSIS: We know this does not work.

MR NYOKA: Did you consider it?  It doesn't matter whether it 
viable or not, did you consider it?

H B DU PLESSIS: No I never considered that.

MR NYOKA: And if you had simply released Mr Kondile he 
came with an ANC person's motor vehicle for a short period, 
allegedly without accomplishing the mission that he came for and 
gone back unscathed, do you think that the ANC would still have 
been suspicious about him even if you had released him on the 
basis that you had no evidence?

H B DU PLESSIS: When?

MR NYOKA: Rather than killing him, just releasing him back to 
Lesotho.

H B DU PLESSIS: I know which information he had access to.

MR NYOKA: My point is that you would not have been believed 
because, precisely because of the fact that he came for a short 
period with Mr Chris Hani's car but nothing happened to him.  He 
didn't even accomplish his mission ...(intervention)

H B DU PLESSIS: They would have believed him, yes.

MR NYOKA: So now you are speculating yourself now.

H B DU PLESSIS: This is the only speculation and the only 
inference I can draw, and it's not the first time that this 
happened, many people were murdered like that.

MR NYOKA: And you said the deceased's main area of 
operation was Transkei, which according to the laws of South 
Africa was an independent state, not so?

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR NYOKA: You could not have dealt with the so-called 
Kondile problem with the Transkei authorities and then denying 
that you ever dealt with him and causing them to interrogate him, 
prosecute him and pursue further investigation, could you not 
have done that?

H B DU PLESSIS: No, you could do anything but the fact 
remained he had all the information available.

MR NYOKA: You were involved in a similar abduction and 
murder of two Port Elizabeth activists, Mthimkulu and Madaka, 
not so?

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR NYOKA: Eight months later ...(intervention)

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR NYOKA: In April 1982.  They were also similarly supplied 
with a knockout mixture shot and burnt.

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR NYOKA: And their bodies were thrown at the Tele Bridge 
next to Lesotho.  Similar modus operandi.  Sorry at Fish River 
Sun, their car was left at the Tele Bridge, next to the Tele 
Bridge, is that correct?

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct, ja.

MR NYOKA: This operation under consideration like the 
Mthimkulu and Madaka one, why is that local Security policemen 
were not used like in Mthimkulu and Madaka?  Why do you have 
to ask Mr Dirk Coetzee to be involved for instance?

H B DU PLESSIS: Well we perhaps have learnt from Mr Coetzee 
how to do it.

MR NYOKA: Maybe because he was going to be the supplier or 
facilitator of knockout drops from Mr Lothar Neethling.

H B DU PLESSIS: No I don't know about knockout drops.

MR NYOKA: In the Mthimkulu and Madaka matter it was only 
you and Mr van Rensburg and Mr Nieuwoudt who were involved?

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR NYOKA: That is for two people, that is Mthimkulu and 
Madaka, but in this one there were five involved.  What role was 
envisaged for each of the five people in the Kondile matter, what 
role was envisaged exactly?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you asking what role was envisaged or 
what role did they in fact play?
(The speakers mike is not on)

MR NYOKA: What role did they play, what role was envisaged 
to be played by each of them?

H B DU PLESSIS: I can't comment on that. We were three 
people because the vehicle, Kondile's vehicle, had to be taken 
from Bloemfontein to the border.

MR NYOKA: Was it not because you wanted to create a festive 
atmosphere in celebration of averting another Biko scandal and 
that you wanted to gain experience?

H B DU PLESSIS: Definitely not.

MR NYOKA: Do you know of any reason why Mr Danster will 
say that you assaulted the deceased if that was not the case?

H B DU PLESSIS: I don't know ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: But it's right he did assault the deceased.

MR NYOKA: I am mentioning the specific acts Your Worship 
like electric shocks etc, etc, not only those that the applicant 
mentioned.
	Do you know of any reason why he mentioned the specific 
acts of assault and mentioned the people that were involved 
including some that were not applicants if that is not the case, 
including himself?