Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-20

MR MALAN: Just before we, Chair with your permission, may I also ask you on your return, or during the break, to clarify with the applicant the first part of his evidence where he said he took, I think he said the 9mm, he took a gun from that arms cache and we're not sure whether this is the home-made gun or the pistol now, but he also told us then in the beginning, in his evidence-in-chief as you led it, that he did not tell any of the others, specifically not even Lucky and I questioned him on that and he said that Lucky could not be trusted, then suddenly a little later on emerges evidence that he distributed those guns.  Can we have - can you also clear this with him please?

MR PANDAY: Yes, Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: While we're at clearing things, I asked him whether he had a home-made gun and he said he knows nothing about it, it was - he heard for the first time in the court about it, he never possessed it.

MR PANDAY: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn for 5 minutes and we'll return at 10 past 3.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: We hope that you've been able to use the 10 minute adjournment appropriately and you will now be able to redirect these proceedings to the course they should be taking.  Over to you.

MR PANDAY: Thank you Madam Chair.

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: (s.u.o.)

MR PANDAY: (cont.)
	Mr Dlamini, during the leading of your evidence, you've led evidence about an arms cache and you also led evidence about the murder of Mdo.  Now I am going to ask you certain questions that will pertain to the arms cache, to Mdo and as well as the conviction that you received as a result of the murder of the victim, more specifically related to the type of weapon you were convicted of having as well as the ammunition that was allegedly found.  Now let's go now to the murder of Mdo.  Right?  
	In your evidence you mentioned that there was an attack on the IFP from your side and your members, as a result of the murder of Mdo.  Now I ask you again can you recall approximately when was Mdo murdered?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Mdo was killed on a Sunday if I still remember very well, but I cannot recall what month it was.

MR PANDAY: Are you sure that you cannot recall the month, or from the year, how many months was it in the year that he was killed?  Can you recall that?  From the beginning to the time he was killed, can you recall how many months had gone by?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: 3 months.

MR PANDAY: You understand, it is 3 months from the beginning of the year, is that correct?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: So would it be safe for us to assume that it was in March...(intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, we've worked that out, Mr Panday.  He won't be able to give you an answer on that.

MR PANDAY: As the Chair...  Now Mr Dlamini, you mentioned that you were told of an arms cache by Mdo.  Is that also correct?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: You also mentioned that when Mdo was attacked, your members took retaliation on the attack of Mdo, is that also correct?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: Now, what weapons did your members use in the attack on the IFP members?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I had a 9mm pistol.

MR PANDAY: And what weapons did the other members have?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: They had other firearms, including these home- made firearms.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Dlamini, this 9mm pistol, was it used in retaliation of the attack on Mdo?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, it was used on this revenge attack for the death of Mdo.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Dlamini, I'm going to take you now to when you were convicted for having a home-made firearm, that was used in the murder of the victim.  Now firstly, in your evidence you mentioned that you tried to shoot the victim with a firearm.  What firearm did you try and shoot the victim with, a 9mm or?

ADV DE JAGER: ...really that's the crux of the matter.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini what firearm did you use to try and shoot the victim?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I used the home-made firearm.

MR PANDAY: Is that what you refer to as "kwasha"?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes.

MR PANDAY: And where did you obtain this "kwasha" from?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I bought it.

MR PANDAY: From where?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: In town.

MR PANDAY: How much did you pay for this "kwasha"?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: R30,00.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, how long did you have this "kwasha"?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: A very long time.

MR PANDAY: And what did you have this "kwasha" for?

CHAIRPERSON: Elucidation, Mr Panday.  When did you buy this firearm?  It's important for us to know.

MR PANDAY: Okay.  Mr Dlamini, when did you buy this firearm?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Around 1990 I had this firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: For what purpose did you buy it?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: For self-protection.

CHAIRPERSON: Self-protection against what?  Against common criminals?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Many things, during fights, in case I'm attacked and so on.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you dared to take that up, Mr Panday?

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, you mentioned that during fights and when you were attacked.  When you were attacked by whom?  Or who did you fear from being attacked by?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: There was fighting going on around my place of residence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlamini, what do you mean by the fact that there were fighting going on?  Are you talking about criminal fighting, where people would fight for criminal purposes?  What are you referring to by these fighting?  Are you alluding to the political conflicts, or just mere criminal activity that usually exists in any given place in this country?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I would say that the IFP and the ANC were not in good relations in our area.

MR PANDAY: So Mr Dlamini, are you trying to say to us that you were trying to avoid, or defend yourself from attacks from the IFP members?

CHAIRPERSON: That's what he's saying.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, now when you were giving evidence regarding the arms cache and in relation to this application for amnesty, the 9mm you referred to during your evidence, was it at any stage used when the victim was murdered?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No, it was not used.

ADV DE JAGER: Are you applying for amnesty in regard to the 9mm pistol?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No.

ADV DE JAGER: For what are you applying, for which weapon are you applying for amnesty?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: The 9 mm was only involved when the revenge attack was conducted after the death of Mdo.

ADV DE JAGER: Are you applying for amnesty with regard to the weapon for the possession of which you were convicted, or are you applying for the amnesty in connection with the weapons which you found in Mdo's place?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No, I am seeking amnesty for the death of this IFP member, not weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed, Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, when you tried - when the victim, the IFP member was killed, you were also convicted of having one home-made firearm and one round of ammunition, is that correct?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, I had this home-made firearm.

MR PANDAY: Now is it not true that you are applying for amnesty as a result of that entire incident that took place in November/December 1992?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: Well, you are applying for one amnesty of the murder of the IFP member, is that correct?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: Now is it also correct, on the form you filled in, that you are seeking amnesty for the possession of a firearm?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes.

MR PANDAY: So when Adv de Jager asked you about - are you applying for amnesty on the weapons, were you confused with regards to his question?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: The amnesty application includes the home-made weapon that I had on my person on the day of the death of the victim.

MR MALAN: Just to make sure, and that was the home-made weapon that they had at the trial in the court, is that correct?