Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-18

MR MALAN: I have one question please, Chair, that wasn't canvassed in either evidence or cross-examination.
	Mr Bhani, when did you know that he would be coming to Welkom?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: I would say the time I spent, there would be a time when I would go down to Umtata and then I made a request that M'Afrika should be sent, and then I asked the Director of Operations to make the selection, because they were not there, so I was told that around May or April that M'Afrika would arrive, that is Bhani.

MR MALAN: And how did it come that you met up with him?  Did he come to your place?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: Do you mean while I was in Welkom or in Umtata?

MR MALAN: Yes, yes, when he arrived in Welkom.

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: He found me at the G Hostel in Welkom.

MR MALAN: Did you not meet with him at the taxi rank, weren't you waiting for him at the taxi rank?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: The person I waited for him at the taxi rank was Ngesi.

MR MALAN: Was that Ngesi?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: Ja.

MR MALAN: How did you know that he would be coming?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: There were specified days that I would - on a particular day I will get a phone, he arrived at Matusi Taxi Rank, there is a garage there and there is a telephone booth there, so I knew on a particular day I must go there at that particular time, then I will receive a call, although it's a public phone.  I knew that I will receive a call on that public phone, so I was always present there to get such calls, so I knew there will be a person that will arrive at that time.  That is how I knew that Bhani will arrive and that is how I knew that Ngesi will arrive.

MR MALAN: And were you told that you were to be replaced as Area Commander, Free State, Regional Commander, Free State?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: We had a discussion about that with the Director of Operations, because of the pressure I was under, I was aware that I would be called and be sent somewhere.

MR MALAN: Were you told who your successor would be?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: What I remember, they did not specify, but from my deduction I realised that the possible candidate will be Bhani, although they didn't say that specifically to me, I made that out of my deduction, that between Bhani and Ngesi, one of them will be my successor.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Khotle, this what came up during the Committee asked you questions about the question of the target, identifying.  Can you tell the Committee what, in your training a soldier by APLA, your understanding and the understanding of the PAC, who was your enemy?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: In short I will say my enemy was the oppressor, so in South Africa the white people were the oppressors.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, you were asked by the Chairman of the Committee that even whether it's the tourists or whatever, somebody visiting, it's the French people or, you would attack him if he is white?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: That is what I said.  If I can explain that further, Mr Chairman.  Firstly, you must remember that we have been oppressed for many years, more than 300 years we have been oppressed.  When I was born, we were still oppressed.  What is happening, even the whole world knew about the situation in South Africa, more especially when it comes to the oppression of the African people.  So from their knowledge, I think they should have also understood that the situation was not conducive for them to come and visit here, because South Africa was at war, it was war against oppression.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Khotle, were you in your training told maybe about the tourists, that there will be times when you select targets that people who are there, though they will look as white people, they may be tourists,?  Were you given training on how to identify that this person does not belong to this country, he's just a visitor or a tourist?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: No, it is not like that.  In my training, I was never told that there'll be tourists.  The only thing that I was told was that I was taught what I already knew then, I already knew the oppressor, it could be a Chinese or an Indian.  This was not a question of racism, it was not something like that, it was the question of freedom, freedom from oppression.  That is what I was told during my training.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Finally, if your oppressor was a black, if I may use that word, an African, would you have done the same thing with the person?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: Like I've already said, oppression doesn't have colour.  If the person who was oppressing the African was also an African, then it is clear that he will also be attacked.  So what happened in Wesselsbron would also happen to him under such circumstances.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I only have one point I want to clarify, and I don't know whether I should do it with you or with your client.  His new application which has been marked pages 10, 11, 12 and 13, have you got it before you, oh, you've given him your copy, sets the date for this incident as the 3rd of June.  Everybody else says the 3rd of July?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think it's... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Is it merely a mistake?

MR MBANDAZAYO: A mistake, Mr Chairman, because everybody agrees that it was the 3rd of July, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll now adjourn until 9H30 tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS