Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1996-08-14

MR D'OLIVIERA: That is the evidence Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR D'OLIVIERA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink.

MR BRINK: Mr Steyn I will ask my questions in English.

JUDGE WILSON: Have you read everything that you had prepared or is there something that perhaps you left out?  I see there is a page there.

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: Chairperson there are other extracts which I didn't think relevant at this stage.

JUDGE WILSON: Could you just draw a line through the papers that you have completed.  Yes, there, just draw a line.  Thank you.

MR BRINK: Mr Steyn who was the station commander at Kwambanambe at that time, I just want to get his name?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: I didn't hear the question properly.

MR BRINK: Who was the station commander at Kwambonambe at that time?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: I might be wrong but I think it was Warrant Officer Stander.

MR BRINK: I am told it was a, whether the spelling is correct, a Wehbag, does that ring a bell?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: He was the commanding officer of the detective branch.

MR BRINK: Right, right, you know him?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: Yes that's correct.

MR BRINK: Right, thank you.  I don't want to keep you long.  You were concerned that these people, if taken into custody, might escape either from the hospital or the police cells or wherever?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: That's correct.

MR BRINK: Could they not have been guarded day and night, these were dangerous criminals?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: That's correct Chairperson.  As I have already said in my evidence the leader of the gang, Mr Mswele, had previously been arrested and whilst he was in legal custody he managed to escape.  I would like to make a further point here, Ngwelezana Hospital there wasn't sufficient security at the hospital.
	I could also mention that the gang was so active that they wouldn't have waited for a confrontation they actually sought out confrontation and provoked it.  To refer to the helicopter incident, that was another proof of my suspicions and confirmation of it.

MR BRINK: How seriously injured were these two men before you shot them?  Would they have needed very special treatment?  Would Ngwelezana Hospital have been adequate to treat them do you think, or should they have been transferred to another major hospital, Stanger or?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: According to what I saw the one deceased had been quite seriously injured, there was a lot of blood.  I couldn't see the specific wounds I am therefore not able to say whether they would have been able to receive sufficient treatment at Ngwelezana Hospital.

MR BRINK: Yes thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why do you say it was a gang, or they were members of a gang?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: Because in terms of various pieces of evidence and also it appeared from cases and certain information it appeared that they operated as a gang.  They didn't commit acts individually or in small groups, they were in larger groups.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Their victims were they not all sorts of people, White, Black, Indian and belonging to all different organisations?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: I am not aware of the fact that any Indian people had been involved but their acts of terror were specifically aimed at the Black community and it was mainly IFP in that area.  It was also aimed at members of the security police who were trying to arrest them as well as holiday-makers and contractors working in the area.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: When you say mainly IFP members are you saying that some of their victims were non-IFP members?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: I didn't investigate all the cases, I only investigated some of them, and in the cases that I had dealt with it was members of the IFP and White people.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Steyn on the evidence it's clear that the deceased probably, or as far as you were aware were criminals, but it's not clear to me what that had to do with politics.  Could you perhaps elaborate on that aspect?  Because even if we accept that they were criminals that cannot bring you within the ambit of the Act?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: As I have already said they were members of the ANC, their objectives were clearly aimed at attacking members of the IFP and doing away with them.  There were cases and incidents where they fired at churchgoers who were members of the IFP.

JUDGE WILSON: I see here that they also committed a lot of robberies, is that so?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: Yes that's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: There's a certain Mr Benadie who had been robbed twice and a couple of months after the robbery there was an attempted murder against him?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: Yes I am aware of that.

JUDGE WILSON: Have you seen this list?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And is the list correct?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: Yes it is.

SISI KHAMPEPE: At the time when you shot the other deceased, Mr Mtetwa, were you aware that he was a member of the gang?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: I wasn't aware that he was a member of the ANC or of a gang.  What I had heard from Mr Law, that's one of the defence force members, we had a discussion along the way, he confirmed to me that he had been involved in the shooting and that he was in possession of a firearm.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you have a discussion with Mr Law after you had shot Mr Mtetwa?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: The only thing we discussed was that they should stick to the fact that the people had died of their wounds on their way to hospital.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But the discussion about Mr Mtetwa being a member of the gang was after you had shot him?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: No there was no discussion regarding that, regarding his political affiliation.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you become a member of the IFP?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: I was a supporter of the IFP, but I became an official member after I had been sentenced and was already in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they issue you a membership card of the IFP?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: They didn't send the membership card to the prison, they sent it to my home.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you think that you were doing the right thing when you shot these two people at that time?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: At that stage, apart from the facts which I have already mentioned my chief objective was to protect the community from further loss of life.

CHAIRPERSON: So you really believed that what you were doing was right?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So why did you attempt to conceal that?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: I had the opportunity, during my court case, I had the opportunity to explain it to the court, plead guilty and to explain to the court, but as people are aware in most cases, even if you are guilty, a person still tries to conceal it in court as a result of technical points or bad evidence and I was under the impression that I could get away with it, I can't deny that.

CHAIRPERSON: My question was, after you had killed him why did you attempt to conceal it, why did you work out a scheme to indicate that these people had died as a result of the shooting and not as a result of your having shot them?  If you thought what you were doing was right why was it necessary for you to resort to that scheme?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: After the shooting I reported it to the district detective officer and I explained to him that I had shot the people and I expected some action from his side if he thought it was wrong.  If he thought it was wrong he should have arrested me or taken the necessary steps.

JUDGE WILSON: He congratulated you.

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And told you that you wouldn't be caught, is that correct?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was this person who congratulated you?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: Colonel Nel.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is he now?

HENRY JACOBUS STEYN: I am not quite sure but I think he's somewhere in the Port Shepstone area Chairperson.