Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-22

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct, I saw the press regarding this matter.

MR PHOSA: You did not in any way take any steps to assist them in their concerns by in whatever manner, letting them know what really happened - you did not.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: No, I did not.

MR PHOSA: Your big concern about what you had done was still with you then, you were still as worried as you've been telling us, about the fact that you had killed these two kids, weren't you?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, it is so Mr Chairman.

MR PHOSA: Now wasn't that an opportunity for you to say: "Let me come forward now man, let me come forward and say something about this"?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: It could have been an opportunity but I was planning to apply for amnesty.

ADV SANDI: You eventually applied as you say, you are planning to apply for amnesty at this stage, you eventually applied for amnesty, when did you actually do that?  I'm not talking about the date when the application was received by the Amnesty Committee.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I can't remember the specific date but it was during the second half of last year, I think it was during the third quarter.

MR PHOSA: You Mr Erasmus, did not apply for amnesty at the earliest available opportunity for you to do so?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I want to tell the Committee that that in itself was a very difficult decision for us, it was difficult for us to do that.  I understand what you are telling me, that to come to the fore and make full disclosure is just as difficult.

MR PHOSA: Look, I've heard you and I'm not being funny, I want to understand you clearly so I may even in the course of this cause you to repeat what you've said but it is in endeavour to understand you.  Are you first of all saying: "Yes, I did not take the first available opportunity to apply for amnesty", it that a yes or a no?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: If this session that you're referring to was the first possibility, I did not Mr Chairman.

MR PHOSA: I'm not sure where we part company.  When the law was announced that people can apply for amnesty, you were not amongst the first people to do that.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I don't think so Mr Chairman.

MR PHOSA: Even after you got to know that you could apply for amnesty, whatever the reasons are you remained deliberating whether to do so or not to do so.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR PHOSA: You did not approach the family of these unfortunate children either - these two young men, you did not approach that family to apologise privately?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, I did not know these people.  While I was here this short time, I've never met any of them, saw them, they never approached me, I do not know these people.

MR PHOSA: Well the truth of the matter is, you never entertained that idea of approaching the family surely?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: No, I did not Mr Chairman.

MR PHOSA: Then did you learn that some of your - some of the police - I'm not sure if you are amongst them, but some of these security police were having an application in court requiring certain things to be done, the ones mentioned by my learned friend.  Did you learn of that application?  You heard him saying something here explaining, did you learn of that application?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, I know there was an application.

MR PHOSA: Were you not amongst those?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: No, I was not there.

MR PHOSA: Did you ever speak to those members and say - and just discuss their attitude towards the whole discussion, did you approach them at all - the other policemen, just to find out what their attitude is?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, I do not know who they were and nobody contacted me and I did not have contact with any or them.

MR PHOSA: Just one more thing, you said something about your church background.  What is the relevance of your church background to what you have done?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: The relevance Mr Chairman, is that I am a believer.  I served in the church for a short time and I want to tell the Committee today that in Port Elizabeth after or before that incident I resigned and never ever I served in any church council.

MR PHOSA: I don't recall now whether I listened to your Afrikaans direct answer when you gave that during your evidence in chief or as you were being asked perhaps by Mr Booyens, but  I do recall that what I understood had nothing to do with what you're saying now.  When you spoke about church background you were not telling us about your resigning, it was part of your background and I thought you were trying to say it's relevant the court - we must consider that here when it comes to your action.  Is it irrelevant to why you did this?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, I did not refer to my resignation, I just remembered it that at that stage I had resigned.  While you're asking me I'm just mentioning it.

MR PHOSA: All right, maybe you forgotten that why you mentioned it.  Can I just ask you this way, does your church do like most churches that I know of - that say: "Thou shalt not kill"?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, we see that in the 10 Commandments.

MR PHOSA: And you were also brought up in that manner in your church?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Does your church also say: "You must not lie"?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I assume that that is the case.

MR PHOSA: I didn't hear the English version properly, did you say: "You assume"?  What was the answer?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I'm saying yes, that is so.

MR PHOSA: So you have your church that says what it does and in the police force, even in apartheid laws a policeman was not supposed to kill, isn't it?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Correct, yes.

MR PHOSA: Even again in that regime a policeman was not supposed to assault people during interrogation?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Similarly, a policeman under that regime was not supposed to lie?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: One could put it that way, I'm assuming yes.

MR PHOSA: Well isn't the true position then that you wouldn't have - you would not have expected the support of your Government or let's put it this way, the police to allow you to kill Mthimkhulu and Madaka, isn't that so?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I have told you today that if I had reported it and I explained myself on that point, then the answer could have gone either way, either yes or no, it could have been either.

MR PHOSA: Well, which means even as you are doing this act - if we take your evidence now, you did think: "I might just not get support of the police to kill these people" - the head of the police?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I can't tell you what I thought at that stage and everything that went through my mind.  That was my decision as to how I should deal with the situation at that time.

MR PHOSA: Now I have a bit of a difficulty, I thought ...[inaudible]  Are you saying that the attitude of your seniors never entered your mind in the course of your taking this decision - the possible attitude of your seniors?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I'm sure that I did consider it.

MR PHOSA: Well then, I thought you would at worst or at best you should say: "When I thought about that, I wasn't sure in my mind that my decision would be supported", isn't that your answer?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I want to repeat, that what I decided to do was such that I could expect either a total no or a yes.  And when I say that I am speculating, I don't knave a factual answer in this case.