Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-10-01

MR BOOYENS: In any event, you apparently arrived at Waal du Toit's office at the same time. Maybe it was between eight and 10 in the morning, but you arrived at more or less the same time. It doesn't appear as if Nieuwoudt was waiting for you for some considerable time. There would have been an arrangement with Waal du Toit.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes. As I said he was a very active man.

MR BOOYENS: But you made the arrangements.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Not Nieuwoudt?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No.

MR BOOYENS: And according to you, Nieuwoudt wouldn't even have known what the arrangement was with Waal du Toit?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I don't know what the arrangements between Nieuwoudt and myself were, whether I should contact him or whether he should contact me. I can speculate and concoct a pleasant story, but I don't want to do that.

MR BOOYENS: Do you agree with the evidence that your house is about a 100, 80 to 100 metres away from the general's house?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, it was just a couple of minutes walk away.

MR BOOYENS: What time did you leave Van Rensburg's house? You were there at six o'clock in the morning?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: You say it took about 20 minutes?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: 20 past 6, approximately, let's make it 06:30, you went or you arrived back at your house.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I think we can put it like that, yes.

MR BOOYENS: Right. Now you worked to your house and it started bothering you why these people should be killed.  Why didn't you immediately go to Nick van Rensburg and go and speak to him, in private, as your immediate commander, and tell him look, this matter of fraud is bothering me.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I suppose I could have done it.

MR BOOYENS: I want to know why you didn't?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Well, I didn't.

MR BOOYENS: Mr De Kock, why not?  It bothered you so much that you later on went to his office, especially for that purpose.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: It wasn't that I went to his office specifically, I was in any case going to head office as was my custom and I decided I would go and see him there.

MR BOOYENS: You earlier said that the reason why you went to Nick van Rensburg's office, because you were very bothered about this fraud matter.  Are you denying that you said that?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that's to his office, but not necessarily head office.

MR BOOYENS: You in any case go to head office.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, but the man was like two minutes away.

MR BOOYENS: What was the reason why you didn't go and discuss it with him immediately? You can't give a reason why you didn't?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: After your visit to head office where you did two things which you can recall, one, you had to contact Waal du Toit and to ensure that he was in his office, and secondly, you had to speak to Nick van Rensburg. You then went to the technical section.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, I didn't go directly to the technical division. I am not sure what time we arrived at the technical people.

MR BOOYENS: How long did you spend at the technical division, approximately?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I am estimating that we were there for about three quarters of an hour to an hour.

MR BOOYENS: Did you then go directly to Vlakplaas?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I went to Vlakplaas, as far as I can recall.

MR BOOYENS: And Nieuwoudt?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I am not sure about Nieuwoudt. I am not sure whether he made use of his own transport or how he got to Vlakplaas.

MR BOOYENS: Could he have gone along with you?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I can't say, I have no recollection of that. I can't remember that Nieuwoudt went to Vlakplaas with me.

MR BOOYENS: Did Nieuwoudt know where Vlakplaas was?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I don't know.

MR BOOYENS: Did you ask him?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, and he didn't ask me either.

MR BOOYENS: Did you say to him you must now go to Vlakplaas?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, I can't recall that.

MR BOOYENS: Mr De Kock, I don't want any misunderstandings.  You don't have any recollection that at the technical division you said to Nieuwoudt you must go to Vlakplaas?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, I can't recall what Nieuwoudt did, I went to Vlakplaas.

MR BOOYENS: But then Nieuwoudt also arrived at Vlakplaas?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I can't say whether he arrived there. I can't recall that I saw him there.

MR BOOYENS: Mr De Kock, all the other applicants say that he was there. In fact, they say that he went along with them, by car.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I have no problem with the other applicants in what they say. All I can say is what I can recall, and what I knew or didn't know.

MR BOOYENS: So you don't know whether you told Nieuwoudt this?  Do you accept that Nieuwoudt arrived at Vlakplaas?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, I would accept that.

MR BOOYENS: How would he have known that he should go to Vlakplaas?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I can't tell you.

MR BOOYENS: Come on, Mr De Kock, there is only one logical way in which he could have known that he had to go to Vlakplaas.  You would have told him come along to Vlakplaas.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I can't say that, because I can't recall it and I didn't want to speculate.

MR BOOYENS: Mr De Kock, did you and any of the other applicants, after you were given instructions, what happened then? Did you stay behind at Vlakplaas?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I could have stayed behind at Vlakplaas, I could have driven away, I don't know.

MR BOOYENS: That morning when you were with Nick van Rensburg, were you alone with him?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Could you please repeat the question?

MR BOOYENS: That morning, when you went to Van Rensburg to discuss the issue of the murder on the basis of fraud, were you alone with him?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Is that at head office?

MR BOOYENS: Yes, that is what you said.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, as far as I can recall.

MR BOOYENS: You wanted to go and question something.  So it is logical that you would have gone alone.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, sometimes you reported back and you would take somebody with you.

MR BOOYENS: Sometimes discussions on sensitive matters took place and you then decided on somebody to carry out the operation. You would only take that one person with you.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, but at that stage we hadn't yet decided on the operation.

MR BOOYENS: It was only cleared with technical later, whether it should be an ambush or a bomb.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that's, I have just described our modus operandi to you.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, but we are talking about this specific operation, and you know that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens, proceed to the next question.

MR BOOYENS: Certainly.  Mr De Kock, after the orders were given, did you see the people leaving by car?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, if I think back, they had already received their instructions and they would make their own arrangements from there onwards.

MR BOOYENS: Did you tell them who they were to work with?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes. I told them that they were under the command of Capt Deon Nieuwoudt for the further arrangements.

MR BOOYENS: You don't know whether you introduced him to them?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, but I believe that I would have.

MR BOOYENS: And thereafter you had no further contacts with these people?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, then we understand each other.  What were the arrangements made for handing over of weapons to your people?  Can you remember that you gave them Makarovs or Tokorovs, I can't remember.