Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-04

MR LOWIES: I would answer this Chair, I would submit and I can state it categorically that this in my instructions.  Mr Nosenga is an utter liar on various aspects.  He is a liar in this regard and what I'm trying to do is to show to you that he has a propensity of telling lies even when faced with the consequences and therefore it is relevant as to his credibility.  You would agree with me, with respect Chair, that the purpose of cross-examination is two fold, one of them is to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that, all I want you to do Mr Lowies, sorry to cut you short, is simply to illustrate to us the relevance of your line of questioning.  So you are saying that the purpose of this line of questioning is to indicate that Mr Nosenga is a stranger to the truth?

MR LOWIES: Yes and to prove a modus operandi.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Perhaps in the interest of these proceedings you should endeavour to make sure that we get to the point at least as soon as we can?

MR LOWIES: I have instructions to do so Chair, I will endeavour to do so, I will give you an undertaking.

CHAIRPERSON: In addition to the instructions you now have a direction to that effect?

MR LOWIES: I'm indebted to you Chair.
	Right, now Mr Nosenga, what I don't understand is, your plea then, you had legal representation in these matters for which you were charged in the Supreme Court and convicted of, not so?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: Why did you not tell them listen I was forced and I'm still being forced to plead guilty to these charges because this is serious?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was afraid of the police at the time because the police would kill you if you denied all activities or involvement in all the crimes.

MR LOWIES: Now what has changed from then up until today, why are you not scared today to tell us these facts that you have hidden before?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We have a Black government today, we no longer have this Boer government and we don't have things happening as they used to happen at the hands of the police then.

MR LOWIES: I have to take issue with you on this, because you were convicted on the 14th February 1995 when the present government was in power.  What is your answer now?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: So, your argument then cannot stand.  I'm going to repeat the question.  What has changed in the meantime, why were you afraid in '95 and not today?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is because today we have a constitutional government which has the TRC as a platform where people can come forward to tell the truth, we don't have the Boer government anymore.

MR LOWIES: We had it in 1995 as well?  We had a constitution in 1995, that's the point, Sir.  One last chance.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know, I made my application to appear before the TRC a very long time ago, I don't know when exactly in which year.

MR LOWIES: But we know one thing for sure, Mr Nosenga, had you not been tortured you would not have done two things sitting here today and that is (a) confessed to these charges on which you were convicted and (b) plead guilty to them?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that is correct, I would not have confessed to those charges, I would have denied everything.

MR LOWIES: Up until today?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: And you understand my question?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Will you please repeat your question?

MR LOWIES: The question is up until today you would have denied these charges had you not been tortured?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Which offences are you talking about, the Sebokeng or Boipatong offences?

MR LOWIES: It can't be that difficult, you were only tortured for the Sebokeng offences, not so?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: Okay, so I'll rephrase then or I'll repeat.  So had you not been tortured up until to date, you would not have pleaded guilty?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I would not because they would not have known who was involved in the killing of the people in Sebokeng.

MR LOWIES: That raises interesting questions, you were not implicated in these offences for which you are applying for amnesty now, why are you applying for something which you are not implicated in?

INTERPRETER: May the speaker please repeat the question?

MR LOWIES: You were not implicated in these offences for which you are applying for amnesty?  Why are you doing to now?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Are you referring to the Boipatong incidents?

MR LOWIES: Yes.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was involved as well.  I felt bad about it, it was not only Inkatha that killed people there, the police were also involved.  These people are telling the truth.

MR LOWIES: So, why are you asking for amnesty for something in which you are not implicated?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was involved at Boipatong except to say I was not arrested.  The people who came forward to testify before this Commission are not telling the truth.  Old ladies died on that day.  People who could have lived to support their families.

MR LOWIES: Yes ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Wait a minute.

MR LOWIES: I'm sorry Chair, I apologise.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Are you saying that you applied for amnesty in respect of the Boipatong Massacre?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Because you realised that the people were not telling the truth?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you realise that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: At the start of the TRC I think, you see I'm in Leeukop so I cannot keep track of the dates.  I think it was at the time when I submitted my application after I was arrested for the Sebokeng offences.  The people who had come forward to seek amnesty, I mean the people are involved in the Boipatong incident, there were police involved there.

CHAIRPERSON: You see you're saying that you decided to apply for amnesty firstly because you were involved in the massacre?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And in addition to that the people who were involved were not telling the truth about what happened during the massacre?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when did you realise that - well first of all, who are the people that you are referring to, are you referring to the other applicants?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when did you first realise that the applicants were not telling the truth?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It's been a long time, I cannot say exactly but it's been quite a while now.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you hear them telling the what you consider to be the untruth?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was here at the TRC before I came to testify, they were still testifying.

CHAIRPERSON: But you had already applied for amnesty at that time?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that is correct.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Chair.
	So I didn't follow exactly what you said in this last response?  So then you heard there were being lies told when you were here?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I had already submitted my application when they told lies.

MR LOWIES: Well, if that is the situation, you are now telling a lie.  Let me tell you why and I'd like your comments.  You had been clear yesterday that one of the reasons why you applied for amnesty and I repeat why you applied for amnesty was because the people were telling lies.  Now your version is you only heard that they were telling lies after you have applied for amnesty.  This is a contradiction.  Would you like to explain this?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I was also involved during the Boipatong Massacre, that's the reason why I had come forward to seek amnesty because the people who came here to testify are not telling the truth.  I had submitted my application pertaining to the Boipatong Massacre a long time ago.