Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-07

MANDLA MADUNA: I used to serve security purposes in the meetings with the PAC and then I got an order to be involved in this operation that we are talking about today.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Maduna, you said you were a taxi driver, you were involved in taxi's.  Normally if one drives around, you always have a lot of people in the taxi.  Didn't you during that time when you were in the taxi's, hear of the conflict in Crossroads?

MANDLA MADUNA: If you are a taxi driver with passengers, you concentrate on the road.  The people who are chatting, they are just behind you.  You won't concentrate on those people, you concentrate on the road.  You don't take note of things that they are talking about because they might disturb me on the road.

MR FORTUIN: So Mr Maduna, I just wanted to establish that you didn't read in the newspapers, you didn't see it on TV, you didn't hear from anyone in the whole of your area where you lived, that there was conflict in Crossroads between Mr Jeffery Nongwe and the ANC, is that correct?

MANDLA MADUNA: If you put it the way you put it, that the ANC or Mr Nongwe were fighting, I will have a problem, because the conflict in Crossroads, you would hear gunshots all the time, even the comrades were fighting.
I won't know if you want me to know specifically about this incident of ANC and this gentleman?

MR FORTUIN: Mr Maduna, I have asked you from the start if you knew about conflict in Crossroads, and you said you don't know about conflict in Crossroads, you only know about the conflict between the gangsters and the PAC, is that correct?  Or are you remembering new things now?

MANDLA MADUNA: Your question was whether I knew about any conflict between the ANC and Mr Nongwe, I didn't hear anything about that.  Even now, you are still asking that question.

MR FORTUIN: Let me ask you, repeat the question, do you know about conflict in Crossroads and do you know if there was conflict between the parties, do you know what parties were involved in the conflict?

MANDLA MADUNA: The conflict that I can tell you about were the conflicts that were taking place during the times of Witdoeke when those groups of people were fighting the comrades.  The conflict whereby the PAC members were being attacked.  The conflict between the ANC and Mr Nongwe, I know nothing about.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Maduna, when you were instructed to go to the house to complete your mission, were you explained where the front door is, what would be the escape routes, where you would be picked up, where you would be dropped off?  Did they say anything of that nature to you?

MANDLA MADUNA: No.

DR TSOTSI: Mr Fortuin, it will be easier for the witness is you would ask one question at a time, you are asking many questions at the same time.  It may be simpler for him if you ask one question at a time, not several questions at the same time.

MR FORTUIN: I am sorry.  The question is, when you were ordered to go on this particular mission, did they explain to you that when it is finished, where you should go to, where you would be picked up, what time you would be picked up, who will pick you up, etc, etc?

MANDLA MADUNA: No, that was not explained to us.   But Tinage, the one who was leading us, is the one who knew everything.  He was the one who was leading us throughout the operation, I never got that information, I never got that explanation.

MR FORTUIN: I see.  So, you went there and you didn't know in what room you would be entering the house and you didn't know what the escape route would be after you had finished your mission?

CHAIRPERSON: It is very simple you know.  He had been led there by Tinage ...

MANDLA MADUNA: That is so.  I was expecting an order about everything that would take place there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR FORTUIN: Do you perhaps know where Tinage and Kamagen are now?

MANDLA MADUNA: No.

MR FORTUIN: It is my instructions that they are presently in prison, both of them.  Would you perhaps know about that?

MANDLA MADUNA: No.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Maduna, I will put it to you that you were a person that was hired by Mr Nongwe to eliminate my client, Mr Depoutch Elese, for which you would have finally rewarded.

MANDLA MADUNA: No Sir, the person who gave you that information, gave you the wrong information, that was not the case.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Maduna, I also put it to you that Tinage was a member of the ANC, his mother is still a member of the ANC and that you were no more than a gun for hire.

MANDLA MADUNA: I am not sure whether you want me to give you the answer, but I have already given you the answer that that was not the case.
	I don't think that a member of the Task Force has got the right to be hired.

MR FORTUIN: I've got no more further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FORTUIN

CHAIRPERSON: Do you wish to re-examine your witness?

MS GOSO: Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you.  Mr Maduna, how far have you gone at school?

MANDLA MADUNA: Standard 3.

MS GOSO: Can you read newspapers?

MANDLA MADUNA: No.

MS GOSO: Did you know whether there was a conflict in Crossroads during the time of this incident or not?

MANDLA MADUNA: No.

MS GOSO: Can you please inform the Amnesty Committee what did you know yourself, what did you know about and where did you get it from?

MANDLA MADUNA: All I knew was that the members of PAC were being attacked, they were being killed by the gangster members at Crossroads.

MS GOSO: Where did you get the information from?

MANDLA MADUNA: That information I was told by Wella and Shaun.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I didn't hear the names please, Shaun and who else?

MANDLA MADUNA: It was Shaun and Wella.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS GOSO: Whilst you were in prison, were you ever visited by members of the PAC?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes.

MS GOSO: Is the PAC well aware of your application?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes, the PAC members know that I have submitted an application, an amnesty application. 	The other people who also submitted another form to TRC, there are those who submitted my form to the TRC.

MS GOSO: And therefore the PAC as a political organisation, supports your application?

CHAIRPERSON: Where does that come from, as an organisation?

MANDLA MADUNA: Will you please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: When you said that he is supported by the PAC as an organisation?  How does one come to the conclusion that the PAC as an organisation, supports his application?

MS GOSO: Can I rephrase the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MS GOSO: Does the PAC as an organisation, support your application?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know that?

MANDLA MADUNA: They are the people who submitted my form to the TRC because I filled in my form and Mr Leklapa Mpahlele took it to the Truth Commission.  Therefore Leklapa Mpahlele was appointed by the PAC to go on collecting the forms of the comrades.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MS GOSO: Mr Maduna, you have explained to the Committee that it was Leklapa who filled in your application for amnesty.

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes, that is correct.

MS GOSO: Did you read it?

MANDLA MADUNA: No, he read it and he told me about it but because of other things like the language problem ...[intervention]

MS GOSO: I noticed that - I am now Mr Chairman, and members of the Committee, on page 5 of the bundle, and I am referring the applicant to paragraph 11(a).  I noticed that Mr Mpahlele has put in there that this operation was carried out on behalf of the PAC's Task Force.  Do you confirm that that is in fact in accordance with your instructions to me?

MANDLA MADUNA: Will you please repeat that?

MS GOSO: I am sorry, if you can look at page 5, that is the bundled booklet that I am putting in front of you, if you can look at paragraph 11 thereof.
	To read for you that that paragraph states that this operation was committed on behalf of the PAC Task Force, and you are saying it is Mr Mpahlele who in fact filled in this form?