Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-14

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, thank you very much.  It really just leaves the question of the robbery count that the applicant was convicted on and was given a fairly heavy sentence of eight (8) years for a robbery of what is given as R380,00 on the papers before us, and the applicant has indicated to us that he had a clean record.  I haven't looked at the judgment on sentence in any great detail, but I approach the matter on that basis.  I think you have already made the submission quite correctly that of course if there is not a confirmation that was in fact part of the incident in question, then technically speaking it leaves that particular count out of the issues that we would be able to have a look at.  Is that how you submit the matter stands at this stage in view of the situation that has developed around this robbery count?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, when you were talking I was just thinking about a case, a similar case which I handled, which was similar to this one in 1995 in East London, where the Committee comprised of Judge Small and Judge Wilson and Miss Khampepe.
	I happened to face a similar situation where an applicant was convicted of kidnapping and it was a chairman of AZAPO, Eastern Cape.  It can be easily got in the Amnesty Committee, and I think it was the feeling of the Committee that it was too much, taking into account the whole circumstances and the circumstances under which the incident happened that they ended up granting even amnesty on that aspect.  That's why I was saying look, I was trying to prove the bona fides that the Committee maybe it can use its discretion if he has on this matter, but I had a similar case where he was convicted of kidnapping and to be honest Judge Wilson was not pleased inasmuch as the evidence was there before the court that they took away these people, but he felt that it was too severe.  And this guy was sentenced in fact to twenty (20) years' imprisonment.  He was sentenced to twenty (20) years' imprisonment and they granted him.  I just forgotten the name, Mr Chairman, of the applicant, but it can be easily be got in the Amnesty Committee.  That's why I'm saying, Mr Chairman, I've done everything for the applicant, but he wanted to be open and honest with the Committee.  That the Committee may use its discretion when it comes to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'll certainly ask that we get that judgment.  Of course I'm just raising this with you, a sort of possibility.  We haven't of course decided which way the matter must go.  But assuming your submission is accepted, that your client has qualified and has satisfied Sections 21 and 22 and that takes care of the other counts leaving this particular one with a very insignificant amount in issue.  Unfortunately Mr Hladi isn't here.  We have taken steps to raise him.  	Applicant has indicated to us that Mr Hladi wanted to speak to him so it doesn't appear as if there is any particular bad blood between them at this stage.  Speaking for myself, it does leave one with a feeling of unease, if you have to approach the matter on the basis that that particular count doesn't form part of the material before us now at this stage and that must be taken as a given, that your client is facing that count and that sentence and so on.  But thank you, we will look at that particular matter.  Whatever assistance, other assistance you have, please let us know.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just to conclude, Mr Chairman, just on that point.  Mr Chairman, I don't want to speculate and do whatever, what will have been the reason of Hladi coming up with this.  I don't want to say he was lying.  We would have the benefit if he was here to ask him certain things.  Maybe we would have got a clear picture, but what I want to say, Mr Chairman, if there was an allegation that he is an informer, definitely at that stage nobody would feel comfortable with that.  One would easily - everybody denied even though some were informers, though I don't have evidence, will deny that he's an informer, would come up with anything.
	I'm not trying to cast any aspersion on him because he's not here but I'm just trying to widen - that's why I didn't want to go to that length.  But there may be other reason why he came up with that, because he was said informer, he wanted to tell these guys that, "Look, there's nothing like that.  These guys only wanted to rob me and they robbed me of this".  
	And one wonders sometimes whether in those circumstances where you go and rob when you don't know how much are you going to get and go to somebody in his house who's drinking, that in any event, if somebody can just go there drinking just to go and rob your R100,00 and just for that specific people.  That's why, Mr Chairman, there are many questions on this aspect, but as I indicated that I want the Committee to take the whole incident in totality when they come to the stage of deciding this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: No, thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And we'll accept the decision of the Committee and abide by it.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: No, thank you very much.  It's quite useful.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: Before we go to Mr Mapoma.  My attention is just drawn to the fact that there are a count of, in fact there are two counts in the indictment.  If you have the indictment, on page 48 of the record.  There are two counts, six and seven on the indictment which appears to be attempted murder charges in respect of the two policemen at the time when Mr Buthelezi was apprehended.
	Now, it also appears from page 43 of the record, that's the concluding part of the sentence, the very last one, in respect of count six, attempted murder, eight (8) years' imprisonment.  Have you got that?  The very last, under the heading "gevangenisstraf" on page 43.  They seem to be dealing with count six there, and it appears as if your client was sentenced to eight (8) years' imprisonment in respect of that.  I'm not quite sure what happened to count seven, whether that has fallen away.

MR LAX: Taken as one.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, they were taken as one.  Okay.  So, it appears that he was convicted, but for purpose of sentence.  Those were taken as one and he was given eight (8) years' imprisonment.  Now, does the application also entail those two counts?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Yes, Mr Chairman, it did entail those two counts, especially if you look, Mr Chairman, in the main application where the applicant in the main form, where he applied for amnesty for the incident in which he was convicted.  And, Mr Chairman, it's just a slip on my part on this not to address the Committee on that aspect, that of the two policemen, attempted murder on the two policemen.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?