Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-17

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khumalo, I am at a loss now with your evidence in this aspect.  I thought when you were questioned by a member of this Committee in relation to this aspect, you admitted that your evidence in that regard was hearsay and that you were relying on wild rumours which was circulating and was rife in your community.
	Now you are saying you used to see this group yourself, you personally witnessed amongst others, Ms Mokoena and Ms Nduno in the company of people who were perceived to be IFP.  Which is which?

BONGA KHUMALO: What I am saying here is that Mr Lax came in too soon.  I wanted to rectify that that yes, there was a rumour circulating in the township, but then apart from the rumour, I did explain that each time I went to the shop or wherever, I would walk past Meme's parents' home and I would see them.
	I did say that that is besides the rumours that were circulating in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: ... Meme doing, can you be specific?

MS MOLOISANE: Pardon Madam Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: What did you see Meme doing in relation to persons who were perceived to be IFP members whose cars would be parked outside her house?

MS MOLOISANE: Before he answers, he said all three of them, Meme, Hapile and Elsie so I want to know whether Madam Chair is confining the question to Meme alone, or to all three of them?

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to clear the air with Meme first, because that is where I think the car would be parked, it would be parked at Meme's home.  Have I understood your evidence correctly Mr Khumalo, in that regard?  Yes?

BONGA KHUMALO: What I am saying, here we are talking about association, the association of the girls with the IFP people.
	I am therefore saying that I confirm that they associated with these people and I used to see them there.  There is no one incident to which I can refer as to what they were doing with the IFP members, but I am saying that usually they were visited by the IFP members in the township.  I don't know what they were discussing, I have no idea.

MR LAX: The question that has been put to you is a very simple one.  You are making a very generalised statement which you have already conceded is largely based on hearsay and rumours.
	However, we are trying to understand that from the things you did see, what did you see so that you could maybe form an opinion to substantiate something.  What we would like to understand from you is, what facts, what things did you actually see with your own eyes and so far, all you have told us, is that you saw these cars parked outside Meme's parents' home and some very vague reference to the three girls, but exactly what they were doing and who was doing what with whom, is not clear.
	That is what the Chairperson is asking you.  Do you understand?  Do you understand, just yes or no and then I will ask you my question.  Don't argue with me, just answer.

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, I understand.

MR LAX: Thank you.  Now please explain to us, on how many occasions you saw these girls at Meme's house where there were IFP cars there?

BONGA KHUMALO: I wouldn't say how many times, but it was more than once.

MR LAX: Did you see the cars outside the house on how many occasions?

BONGA KHUMALO: I cannot recall.

MR LAX: Did you actually see the girls at the house or did you just see Meme at the house, or which girls did you see at the house?

BONGA KHUMALO: It was a group of girls, they were always in a group.

MR LAX: Can you identify which girls were in the group and on how many occasions you saw each of them present?

BONGA KHUMALO: Meme, Hapile, Elsie, Ndonbimbi who has since passed away, I still remember the four.

MR LAX: There were four girls at Meme's house and you saw them there as a group?  Were they always there as a group or were there different permutations of them?

BONGA KHUMALO: I would not for certainty say that they were always in that group of four, but I used to see their faces often.

MR LAX: Did you see them at that house quite soon before they were killed?  I mean quite soon before the one was killed, I beg your pardon, and the other one was attacked?

BONGA KHUMALO: Would you please repeat the question.

MR LAX: Well, you will be able to have a point fixed in your mind, because you made enquiries or you discussed this matter with the Unit Commander a few days after it happened, remember that?  You told us that in your evidence?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes.

MR LAX: So you will be clear about when it happened, correct?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes.

MR LAX: Did you see these girls present at that place in Zone 12, just before they were killed?  Say a week or two weeks before they were killed, or even whenever, I am not sure?

BONGA KHUMALO: No.

MR LAX: How long before this incident took place, did you last see those girls at that house?

BONGA KHUMALO: I had not come across them since I was a Commander.  I don't think I could have come across them again, because most of the IFP members were avoiding me in many instances.
	We only met at a battlefield.

MR LAX: That was Meme's parents' home, wasn't it?

BONGA KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR LAX: You didn't see her at her parents' house roundabout the incident?

BONGA KHUMALO: I saw her.

MR LAX: But I have just asked you, roundabout the incident, did you see these girls and you said no, you didn't see them.

BONGA KHUMALO: I thought you were talking about Hapile and Elsie.

MR LAX: Mr Khumalo, we were talking about the group of girls which included Meme, Elsie, Hapile and one other person who died subsequently.  We were talking about a group, we weren't talking about individuals.

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes.

MR LAX: Please continue Ms Moloisane.  Sorry to interrupt in that way, but I think you would have noticed that we have now narrowed the issues and the focus of the information much more clearly.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you.  Mr Khumalo, you said these girls that were associating with the IFP members, was there anything wrong in them associating with them?

BONGA KHUMALO: As I am saying that in the township, violence was so bad because the girls allowed the IFP easy access into the township.  Not so much referring to Hapile and Elsie, but it was common practice in the Vaal, in Sharpville, these people gained easy access into the township as a result of the girls.
	That is the reason why the community had a problem with people associating with the IFP, especially girls.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khumalo, with the knowledge I have, having stayed in a township myself, is it true that it was the easy access they were affording the IFP members that was seen to be the problem with your community or was it the mere association with the IFP, not because it gave the IFP any easy access to the township, is it not so?  Is that not common cause, the mere association with a person that the community perceived as its political opponent, the community that perceived itself as being aligned and associated to another political organisation, and that was opposed to the IFP and those who were aligned to the IFP, was that not the problem?

BONGA KHUMALO: Madam Chair, your question was very long.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me shorten it.  Your evidence is to the effect that the reason why there was anything wrong in these girls associating themselves with the IFP, was because they allowed the IFP easy access to the township, that is your evidence.
	I am, my question is is it in fact not true that the mere association with the IFP was that which was perceived by the community as being wrong and not because the girls were associating with people who would then have an easy access to the township?