Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-20

CHAIRPERSON: Did this name feature during your interrogation of the deceased?  Did you ask him if he knew Mr Mashinela?  Did he then admit to knowing Mr Mashinela, if you did ask him?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is when he started becoming evasive.  He did not want to admit to us whether he knew Mashinela or not.  We knew he knew him because he came from that place.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Panday.

MR MALAN: Sorry, just before you proceed.  How did you know he was coming from that place if he didn't admit to it and if he didn't want to give you any of his details?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: We were quite sure that he was coming from that area.  We knew as well that Mashinela used to instruct people to kill ANC members.

CHAIRPERSON: What you are basically saying is that you speculated that he came from that area, you couldn't have known that for sure.

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I am saying he was residing from that area because he too mentioned that.  There was only one Shayamoya in Tongaat and the IFP were our enemies, each time we met we would exchange gunfire.

MR MALAN: Just before you proceed, Mr Panday please.  Mr Dlamini, you were asked by Mr de Jager when he referred you to the affidavit by Lucky and you said when you were asked whether he told you his particulars, you answer was:  "He did not give us his details."  Now what details did he give you?  Let's get this clear so we know where we stand.  Did he tell you anything about himself?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I explained earlier on that we questioned the deceased and he confessed his IFP membership to us, but then he did not want to reveal the name of his leader and he indicated that his leader would inform them that they should not mention his name each time something happened.

MR MALAN: Please listen to my question.  Did he tell you anything about his details, or did he only tell you that he was IFP?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He told us that he was an IFP member.

MR MALAN: Yes, did he tell you anything else about himself?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I cannot remember him telling us anything else.

MR MALAN: Now I want to ask you a few specific questions.  Did you torture him during the interrogation?  When you asked him questions, did you hit him?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: During the questioning we did not assault him.

MR MALAN: You didn't beat him, with fists?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Not at all.  We didn't even touch him.

MR MALAN: You didn't even touch him?  Are you sure about that?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, I am sure about that.

MR MALAN: Now if I tell you that in the affidavit of Lucky, on page 11, in paragraph 18, Lucky says
"It is true, he told us his particulars during the torture, prior to his death."
Is Lucky lying?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: When he was assaulted - he was assaulted when he was being disciplined and even - but at the place where he was caught, nothing was done to him, he was just taken somewhere else.

MR MALAN: Yes but, listen to my question.  Lucky says that he told you his particulars.  Is Lucky lying, or is Lucky telling the truth?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, Lucky is telling the truth.

MR MALAN: Now why are you telling us that he did not tell you his particulars?  Are you lying or are you telling the truth?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: What I'm saying is this, I am actually referring to the very first time when we approached him, he was never touched.  In my room where he was being investigated, he was never touched.  He was only assaulted or tortured during the discipline.

MR MALAN: Yes, he wasn't tortured, he was only disciplined, that's what you told us.  He had 16 cuts from two of you, you administering the first 16 cuts with the rod, that's what your evidence was, is that correct?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is so.

MR MALAN: But you didn't question him then, you simply disciplined him and you released him.

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: At that time he was being questioned by the other people.  There was chaos, there was a lot of noise and I couldn't hear everything, you would only hear what you were saying at the time because everyone was posing a question.

MR MALAN: Did he tell you that he came there to kill Lucky?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is something that he mentioned later, before he was taken to be killed.

MR MALAN: Did he tell you who sent him?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I did not hear anything about that.

MR MALAN: Lucky says in his affidavit that this deceased told you that he had been sent as an IFP hit man by Lucky's brother, to kill Lucky.  Is that true, or is it not true?  Did you hear that?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes.  I cannot remember everything.

MR MALAN: You have no recollection of him telling you that he was an IFP hit man, sent by Lucky's brother, to kill Lucky?  You can't recall such statement by the deceased?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: It used to happen that his brother would send IFP members and when the deceased was talking, there was a lot of noise, you wouldn't grasp everything, you wouldn't hear everything that the people were uttering.

MR MALAN: I just have one question.  You're in Durban Westville?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes.

MR MALAN: Lucky is also in Durban Westville?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: We are at different places.

MR MALAN: Is he not in Westville prison?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No, he is in Ncoma.

MR MALAN: He's in where?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Ncoma.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, you may proceed.  You are still pursuing ...(intervention)

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini just to clarify something, were you sentenced to Westville Prison all this time?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No.

MR PANDAY: Where were you sentenced to?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I was in Watervan Prison.

MR PANDAY: And when did you come to Westville Prison?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I arrived on Wednesday.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Dlamini I'm going to ask you one more time, I want you to think very carefully about the answer you're going to give to me and the Committee Members.  You mentioned that the IFP members were coming to attack the ANC members and the ANC members would have to defend themselves or maybe attack the IFP members.  Do you know why the IFP members were coming to kill the ANC members in the area?  Do you have a reason?  Do you know specifically why that was happening?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, I do know the reason.

MR PANDAY: Tell us that reason.

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: The reason is that IFP were our enemies, we were not in good terms with IFP.  When they were attacking they killed my brother, Mdo, who was an MK member.  That is when we got very angry as ANC people.  Same day in the evening we also attacked them.  That is when this whole thing started and it went further up until today.

MR PANDAY: Do you know what the IFP hoped to accomplish by killing your brother Mdo.

CHAIRPERSON: When was he killed, Mr Panday?

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, firstly, when was Mdo killed by the IFP?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Mdo was killed in 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: In what area?  Is it in the same area?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He was killed in the IFP territory.

CHAIRPERSON: Which is what area?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Shayamoya.

MR PANDAY: Do you know what Mdo was doing in the IFP territory?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Mdo had a girlfriend there.

MR PANDAY: Was Mdo's girlfriend IFP?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes.

MR PANDAY: I am going to ask you again.  What did the IFP accomplish or hope to accomplish by killing Mdo?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I also do not know as to what is it that they were going to achieve because they were famous, or rather popular IFP leaders there who had a meeting.

MR PANDAY: Mr Panday, maybe we don't understand what you are trying to elicit from your witness.  Hasn't you answer been responded to by Mr Dlamini, by stating that there were continual fights between the ANC and the IFP?  Do you need more than that?  Doesn't that give you the political context of what was happening at the time?  Do you need far much more than that?