Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-22

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I believe that as soon as concrete information could be gathered around Mr Evans, the project would have continued.

MR LAX: But you see, a few days later something must have happened because Jack went to talk to the "Voorsitter" about Evans.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't know about that.

MR LAX: Yes, but even if you don't know about it, you can infer that Jack wouldn't have gone to talk to the Voorsitter about Evans if there was nothing new to talk about because he'd already spoken to him and got permission to do the job, as far as you understood.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I think the Chairman - Jack or Mr Basson could explain this entry, but such an entry says such to me and to you, but there was a movement happening against Evans.

MR LAX: Yes, fair enough, I don't expect you to know what they spoke about, but all I'm having a difficulty with is understanding why you were tasked with this thing, there was clearly some development around it ...(intervention)

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I deny it.

MR LAX: Let me finish.  And you have no recollection of that at all?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Not of this, no.

MR LAX: Sorry, please continue.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Your evidence earlier on, while I was cross-examining you, your evidence was clearly that you said that the "Evansgeval het later weer ter sprake gekom en Jack" referring to Verster, "wanted to discuss it again."  Remember that evidence?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: En Jack?

MR KAHANOVITZ: And Jack wanted to discuss it again.  That was your evidence.  I asked you about these entries.  I asked you to explain them.  You agreed with me that the Evans matter once again came up for discussion and Joe Verster wanted to discuss it.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What did he want to discuss?  Surely he wanted to discuss what progress was being made in the matter?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Well, he wanted to continue with the project and we had no information about his activities.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but you'd only be in a position to tell him that if you'd taken steps to attempt to establish his movements, his whereabouts and you would then say to Mr Verster:  "We have been looking out for the man, Mr So-and-so's been sent round, his house has been watched, his flat has been watched, his telephone has been bugged.  Unfortunately, after having taken all of those steps, we can't find him."

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, we didn't have that information available to us.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well what - were you waiting for Mr Evans to report to your office?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, Sir.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So what are you suggesting?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I think you are a bit sarcastic, but it's your right.  No, there were information structures through which you can gather this information, for example this entry about Jack talking to the Chairman about Evans, the Chairman also gave evidence that he had his information structure, Jack had his sources, CCB has its own sources, so what this discussion was about, it could only have been about information because our own structure in Region 6 as you heard, could not ascertain his address and his movements.

MR LAX: May I just ...?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Please.

MR LAX: But surely if they had all this information and they were having all these discussions, surely they would have shared that with you because you were making no progress?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: They had to.

MR LAX: But they didn't.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Not as far as I know.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just on this, the Evans project was Mr Maree's?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Originally, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and then when he fell out of the picture because of his other commitments etc, whose project did it become?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Mr van Zyl.

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr van Zyl said that he was only brought in on an ad hoc basis because he had functionaries who could carry out the operation and he was an in and out contact, he really knew very little about it, he just made Peaches available for a couple of days.  Now we've heard that the project kept going and obviously, because of these entries, for several months.  Who would have taken it over if van Zyl didn't?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: The project was abandoned when it failed.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say it was abandoned, was a conscious decision made to drop it?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, Mr Verster said:  "Abandon the project".  I conveyed this message to Mr van Zyl and asked him to send his people back to the Cape, but Mr Evans would remain a priority target, yes I agree, but there was nobody else in Region 6 who was tasked to, at that point, to start a pre-study because we still gathered information around him, we still needed information and Mr Botha was put on ice.

CHAIRPERSON: Because you see, if one reads this entry at page 30:  "Bert must chase Grosskopff", the very wording used indicates to anyone who reads it that you were expected to do something.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: About Grosskopff.

CHAIRPERSON: So if you were expected to do something, then one would have imagined there would have been some direct talk about it.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: With you.  And was there that?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, there was.

CHAIRPERSON: But no mention of Evans?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Chairman, I will agree, we did talk about Evans, but I personally never concentrated on Evans.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Thank you.  You will agree with me, the entry in the diary has got an important "en".  It says
"Bert must chase Grosskopff and kill his supporters."
 In other words, the task is to eliminate his supporters.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And on your version, the only supporter of Grosskopff that you've ever mentioned is Gavin Evans.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: What I named at that stage, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The entry clearly means that you must eliminate one of Grosskopff's supporters, namely Gavin Evans.  "Laat omval", that's what the entry says.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, but as  I said, it was written like that, it's true and it must have been conveyed to me like that, but personally I did not work on Evans.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Also as a matter of simple mathematics on your version you tell us van Zyl's out of the loop at this stage, correct?  Van Zyl's not working on Evans, correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You tell us that Maree can't work on Evans because he's busy on foreign projects, correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You tell us that Botha can't work on it because he's on ice.  Well that only leaves you.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: And I didn't get to it.  That's it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I think I must move on.  Right, turn to the following page, page 31.
"More ammunition.  2nd of August.  300 rounds of 9mm, 50 rounds of 45mm, 100 rounds of 303."
Correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That's an old weapon.  Chairman, I can only say that Charles and Lee, those names mentioned above it, I see the ammunition, yes, Mr Kahanovitz is right, but Mr Basson handled a lot of regions, but yes, I see it.