Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

CHAIRPERSON: My apologies I heard you with half an ear.  Thank you very much.  Good afternoon gentlemen.  I thought that there were going to be three of you.

MR CILLIER: One of them, Director Henk Hesslinga is not available because he's sick, he underwent an operation.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon, I mustn't be speaking to you.  Can you just identify yourself please.

MR CILLIER: The surname is Cillier Mr Chairperson, I am representing the two witnesses.  It is in fact so that Director Hesslinga had an operation last week.  He indicated to me this morning that he is in fact much better at this stage and if you could accommodate him later this week he might be able to attend if necessary, otherwise he will submit a full statement on any aspect that you might need evidence on.

CHAIRPERSON: I think actually that we probably do want to have him attend this session.

MR CILLIER: I will then keep in contact with my learned friend Mr Vally, in order to arrange a date that suits the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Now gentlemen are you going to be testifying in English or Afrikaans?

MR CILLIER: Mr Dempsey would prefer to testify in Afrikaans and Mr Moodley would testify in English Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Please stand gentlemen.

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: (sworn states)

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr Cillier.

MR CILLIER: Mr Chairperson the arrangement between me and my learned fiends, in order to save time we realised the time constraints if I have to lead the two witnesses it might take up to two to three hours which I don't think you have available, so the arrangement is that the officials from the TRC would straightaway start asking the questions regarding the facts that they really want to be cleared up and I will in the end rather than clear up aspects if necessary.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very very much, I am very appreciative of your concern.  Piers.

MP PIGOU: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Do we have statements?

MP PIGOU: Not as far as I am aware.

MR CILLIER: There is one brief statement that a TRC official took of Superintendent Dempsey in fact.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I think that that is available, yes.

MP PIGOU: Thank you.  Because time doesn't allow us too much I am going to try and be as brief as possible, I am going to start with Superintendent Dempsey.

CHAIRPERSON: Your consultancy depends on it.

MP PIGOU: Thank you very much Arch.  Superintendent Dempsey in 1988 what was the position that you held in the Soweto Police?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I was a captain in the Murder and Robbery squad.

MP PIGOU: And could you tell us in November of 1988 whether you were tasked to be the investigating officer in the disappearance of one Mr Lolo Sono and a Mr Anthony Shabalala?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I was first appointed as investigating officer in that relevant case according to my records the 20.1.1989.

MP PIGOU: At what stage, perhaps let me ask it this way, did you take several statements during the course of that investigation in relation to the disappearance of these two young men?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: That is so Chair.

MP PIGOU: And do you recall who you may have taken those statements from?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I took those statements from Mr Michael Siakamela, the statements of Mr Sono and the statement of Mr Shabalala that had already been taken previously when I took over the docket for further investigation.

MP PIGOU: Could you tell me whether any approach was made to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela to obtain a statement from her?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: It was so, we did that.  I tried to contact - a telephonic appointment with Mrs Mandela but I couldn't succeed in doing so.  I visited her house one evening and she was not at home.  The person who opened the door told me that she was not at home.  I got the impression that she was trying to avoid me.

MP PIGOU: Were any further efforts made to try and locate her for the purposes of obtaining a statement either directly or through her attorneys?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: A while later I received the case of Stompie Seipei for further investigation.  I went to the Attorney General with both cases and we discussed the case in depth.  I was given certain guidelines, inter alia a recommendation that Mrs Mandela should not be approached immediately for an explanation but that the matter first had to be thoroughly investigated and then re-submitted to him and then a decision would be taken.

MP PIGOU: Could we confirm whether that was Attorney General Klaus von Lieres?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: It was him.

MP PIGOU: Could you tell me who the overall commanding officer of the investigation into Lolo Sono was?  Who were you reporting to Superintendent Dempsey?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: To my commanding officer Lt Col Oosthuizen at that stage.

MP PIGOU: And did you at any stage report to Major General Jaap Joubert about this particular investigation?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: That is correct, I also reported to him.

MP PIGOU: Is Major General Jaap Joubert the same person that we have listed as a senior staff officer for the executive in the security branch?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I am not sure, I think at that stage he was head of the detective service.

MP PIGOU: Are you aware, Superintendent Dempsey, that Major General Jaap Joubert was also put in charge of certain investigations, and I will name three of them - the investigation into the disappearance of Stanza Bopape; the investigation into the bombing of Khotso House and the investigation into the bombing of Cosatu House and that during the course of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission processes amnesty applications have been received by senior policemen and indeed I believe in the case of Khotso House and Cosatu House a former Cabinet Minister in relation to covering up in these investigations?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I am not aware that he was the investigating officer in the mentioned cases.

MP PIGOU: Did you receive direct instructions from Major General Jaap Joubert?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I went through my commanding officer, perhaps I should just explain to you how things worked.  The safety branch and the detective branch were two different legs or divisions.  The security branch had its own mandate and its own manner of investigation whereas our detective branches worked in a different manner, they reported to head office and we went through our commanding officers to head office.

MP PIGOU: Did you work at all with the security branch in Soweto during the period of investigation, either directly or indirectly did you receive information for instance from them in relation to your investigations around Lolo Sono or subsequently Stompie Seipei?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: Yes I received information with regard to Stompie Seipei.

MP PIGOU: With whom were you liaising in the security branch?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: If my memory doesn't fail me it was Lt Kritzinger and some of the other members there in the investigating team, a certain Mr Terblanche, those are the names I can remember.

MP PIGOU: Did you have any contact with a certain Captain Jan Potgieter?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: Yes I had, yes.

MP PIGOU: Did you make a request to Captain Jan Potgieter to have a certain Temba Mabota picked up by the Security Branch?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: That is correct.  At that stage he was apparently a suspect in the Stompie case and I asked him to help me trace him.

MP PIGOU: Can you recall what information was passed on to you by Captain Jan Potgieter in relation to Temba Mabota?