Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

ADV SANDI: So are you saying that my impression is incorrect?

MR PHOSA: Maybe I should answer it bit by bit, I am cross-examining.

ADV SANDI: Okay, thank you.

MR PHOSA: Right, but it didn't occur to me that it was clear, the way it is coming clear now, exactly what happened.  Now, right, so who of you said let us go to so and so, who made the suggestion to go to someone else with the decision that you had already made?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I think General Van Rensburg said we had to go and discuss it with General Erasmus.

MR PHOSA: He specifically mentioned General Erasmus?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, he was the Commanding Officer at the time.

MR PHOSA: Now, we know that you discussed it with him over that period.  Isn't it a period of about ten days or less before the 14th of April?  I am correct, isn't it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR PHOSA: Now, was the thought or was the idea ever mentioned or did the thought arise whether or not other people should be considered once you as a group had decided that elimination was the answer.  Did you say, I mean the two of you, maybe we should just find out what so and so thinks?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, that wasn't done that way.

MR PHOSA: So you don't know what each of the others thought about the advisability of approaching someone else?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Did you think about it, I mean you personally?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, I considered it that is why I went to my direct seniors.

MR PHOSA: No, you are taking me back.  I am dealing with the three of you, I have even got to the stage where you have concluded that there should be elimination.  I have jumped everything.  You have now said there should be elimination, now, did the three of you or any of you say man, let's decide, should we not perhaps approach some senior?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, not that I am aware of.

MR PHOSA: Now, I am asking about you now, you personally, did the thought enter your own mind now, this senior is cooperating, but shouldn't we perhaps hear what head office says or some other person high up?  Maybe even General Coetzee?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Your Honour, I didn't think of that.

MR PHOSA: So, from the moment the decision was made the next question was to decide how it should be done, after you three had agreed let's eliminate, do you then say how that is going to be done or was anything else considered?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: You are referring now from the point when it was decided that he had to be eliminated?

MR PHOSA: Yes, decided amongst the three of you?  I am now including General Erasmus.  You have all agreed he should be eliminated, there was no talk of course of going to any senior, so what was decided should happen next?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: It was left to General Van Rensburg and myself to do the planning.

MR PHOSA: So he knows absolutely nothing about the details or the planning, Mr Erasmus?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Not that I am aware of, no.  I don't know whether he was informed regarding what had been planned, but I can't recall now.

MR PHOSA: Who raised the name of Mr Nieuwoudt?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I proposed that.

MR PHOSA: Did Mr Van Rensburg ask you as to why you chose or proposed Mr Nieuwoudt?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, I think he left it to my judgement.

MR PHOSA: To your knowledge, had Mr Nieuwoudt committed any similar acts by then, had he killed anyone in his capacity as a policeman?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Not that I am aware of, no.

MR PHOSA: When did you begin to know for the first time that he also does kill?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I am not sure, I can't remember what he is applying for, but in those applications.  If it was the first case, then it is this one.

MR PHOSA: I suppose you have forgotten about Kondile now?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Nieuwoudt was not involved in Kondile.

MR PHOSA: Okay.  My apologies.  Now, is the position that Mr Nieuwoudt never confided in you regarding any other killing that he might have been involved in, were you not present?
	He never said to you, you know what, I also did so and so?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No.

MR PHOSA: And let us come back to this occasion then.  Now, when did you approach him?  I take it that you approached Mr Nieuwoudt?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: When did you approach him?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Your Honour, it would have been, I would say and I would stick to that it was after we had left General Erasmus.  I can't say exactly whether it is ten minutes, half an hour, the same day or even a day later, I can't say specifically.

MR PHOSA: What did you say to him, I am not saying the exact words, but what was the nature the gist of your approach to him?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Well, I sketched the scenario that he had sketched to me, their activities, their planning, the pressure exerted on us and the fact that General Van Rensburg and I both felt that is was the only option, and whether he would be prepared, by implication, to become involved in the elimination.

MR PHOSA: Yes, I listen to the English interpretation, so I missed - I didn't understand this.  It said whether he would be prepared by implication, can I just understand, what did you say - whether he was prepared to do what?  It says here to me whether he would be prepared, by implication to do it, so just explain.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, whether he was prepared to become involved in the elimination.

MR PHOSA: Yes, and was his reaction instantaneous, did he respond to you after you had told him all that, did he give you an answer?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Your Honour, I cannot remember.  As I am sitting here, I can't state it clearly.  I don't know whether I gave him the opportunity to even consider the matter, it is possible, I cannot recollect that now.
	Whether he said to me immediately I am prepared to do this or whether I left him a choice.

MR PHOSA: Are you saying that the possibility exists that you didn't give him a chance to consider it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, I am not saying that, but I am saying I cannot remember chronologically exactly what happened.

MR PHOSA: But clearly, he didn't give you any problems, whether it was immediately or later, he didn't say look I am unhappy about his man, you know I was involved in the Biko thing, and I don't want to be involved again, he didn't say anything like that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, he didn't.

MR PHOSA: Now, What details were discussed then between the three of you as to what should be done?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: If I remember correctly we discussed that firstly we had to determine how we would abduct them and that they would be taken from there, to Post Chambers, where they would be eliminated by the three of us.

MR PHOSA: So somebody had to arrange the situation, make sure that Post Chambers is clear of people, there is no danger of you being detected, isn't that so?  That had to be attended to?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, yes.

MR PHOSA: And that was done?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I cannot remember exactly how things progressed, but I accept that was how it was done.

MR PHOSA: To cut it short, you planned it in such a way that these two people were to be misled to believing that they are being interrogated?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Of course, the aspect which was raised by one of the Committee members, Adv Sandi, arises.  It sounds strange, doesn't it sound to you, that they could be made to take tablets for interrogation?  If you think about it now, it sounds rather strange that they could just be told take this and they take it, be who they were?