Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khumalo, may I remind you that you are still under your previous oath, that is the oath you took yesterday?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Thank you Sir.

BONGANI KHUMALO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee.  I think yesterday I finished leading the applicant before we adjourned.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.  Mr Coetzer, any cross-examination?

MR COETZER: Indeed Mr Chairperson.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo what does AZANYU stand for?

BONGANI KHUMALO: It's Azania National Youth Unity.

MR COETZER: Explain again to us, when did you join the PAC?

BONGANI KHUMALO: In 1991.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, is it correct that you testified yesterday that in 1990 you joined the PAC?

BONGANI KHUMALO: My apologies Sir, I joined in 1990.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, is it also correct that yesterday you testified that Mr Makwara recruited you on the 23rd of February 1992 for the PAC?

BONGANI KHUMALO: He did not recruit me on the 23rd, that is the day he commanded me.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, why did you then tell us that you met Mr Makwara the 23rd of February 1992 and that he recruited you there, not for APLA but for the PAC?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Sir, the word recruit means he recruited me to the organisation.  On the 23rd he commanded me, that was the day he gave me order.

MR COETZER: So is it correct then to conclude that on the 23rd of February he gave you the command after you were recruited in 1990?

BONGANI KHUMALO: That is correct, Sir.

MR COETZER: Why, from 1990, there were no other instructions given to you concerning any other actions against white people or white farmers?

BONGANI KHUMALO: He was the person known to me, he's the person I used to meet often.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, maybe one can put the question in a slightly different way.  What activities were you involved in for your organisation AZANYU before February 1992?  Actions, I'm talking about actions, operations, what did you do?   Was this the first operation?

BONGANI KHUMALO: This was the first operation Sir.

ADV SANDI: Right, thank you.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, why weren't you recruited before for operations?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I do not know.  Had the Commander been here he would respond quite positively to that question.

MR COETZER: Very well.  Mr Khumalo when did you say you met Mr Makwara?

BONGANI KHUMALO: On the 23rd when he commanded me.

MR COETZER: And that was also the only day when you saw Mr Makwara, is that correct?

BONGANI KHUMALO: No, I knew him from the day he recruited me into the organisation.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, then you must explain.  Your testimony was in your main evidence that you met Mr Makwara on the 23rd of February 1992.  Furthermore you said that afterwards you wouldn't be able to meet with him because you were in prison, you were arrested.

BONGANI KHUMALO: To clarify this, I last saw him on the 23rd.

JUDGE DE JAGER: He also testified initially that he was recruited by Makwara at the beginning of his evidence.

MR COETZER: I apologise.  How often did you meet Mr Makwara?

BONGANI KHUMALO: He used to come to Qwaqwa during weekends.  Sometimes he would come for two consecutive weeks and two consecutive weeks he would not come.

MR COETZER: Before the 23rd of February, what did he tell you?  What did he teach you concerning the organisation and their workings?
Most of the times he taught me about the weaponry, the weapons and even our chatting was basically about the weapons and how he managed to reach the point where he was.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he teach you about the weapons?

MR COETZER: I explained yesterday that he taught me about weapons, the firearms and petrol bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: What type of firearms was he teaching you about?

BONGANI KHUMALO: 9mm and an AK47.

CHAIRPERSON: What was happening to those?  What did he teach you about those two?

BONGANI KHUMALO: In other words he taught me how to dismantle, how to assemble them.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that also mean the 9mm, to teach you how to dismantle it and reassemble it?

BONGANI KHUMALO: No, just the AK.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did he teach you about the 9mm?

BONGANI KHUMALO: He taught me to shoot.  Most of the times he taught me to shoot.

CHAIRPERSON: What type of 9mm weapon, firearm was that?

BONGANI KHUMALO: There are many of them Sir, I can't remember but I do recall he taught me.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't follow.  Did he teach you about several 9 millimetres, how to shoot with them, or what have you forgotten because there were many?  I don't follow.

BONGANI KHUMALO: He taught me with those guns but it was difficult for me to recall, this is the kind of an 9mm he used, but I recall he used 9mm to teach me and an AK47.

CHAIRPERSON: Were all these 9 millimetres the same?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I did not expect that I would be asked about them one day, so I did not take a good look at them.  My intention at that stage was just to know how to handle and use a gun.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he tell you the reason why he was on each day teaching you about a different 9mm?

BONGANI KHUMALO: He just taught me to shoot and to aim at shooting.

CHAIRPERSON: How many parts did the AK47 have which you dismantled and assembled?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I do not recall well now.

CHAIRPERSON: We would just require you to estimate, we don't want the precise number.  You can't estimate either?  Very well, you may proceed Mr Coetzer.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, did you only learn how to use a 9mm or did you also learn how to use a shotgun?

BONGANI KHUMALO: No, Sir.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo did Mr Makwara ever show you the use or how to use any other weapons, apart from the AK47 and the 9mm?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I wanted him to teach me about shooting, that was my main concern.  I just wanted to know how to shoot and he taught that.  I wasn't concerned about the others.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, you said Mr Makwara gave instructions to commit an act.  Where and when did he give you this instruction?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I was with him in Qwaqwa.

MR COETZER: And the date?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Which date are you referring to Sir, when he was with me in Qwaqwa?

CHAIRPERSON: You have not referred to dates either, how could you be giving a date other than the 23rd when you received the instructions?  That's the only date we know.

BONGANI KHUMALO: My apologies.  I did not understand the question.  I met with him on the 23rd.  It was in Qwaqwa when we met.

CHAIRPERSON: Precisely where in Qwaqwa?

BONGANI KHUMALO: We were at Phuthaditjhaba.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Coetzer.

MR COETZER: Mr Tshabalala, did Mr Makwara give you this instruction early the morning or late the afternoon?

BONGANI KHUMALO: It was in the day when he gave me the order.

JUDGE DE JAGER: How late in the afternoon?    If you can just give us the answer very quickly.  Was it 10 o'clock, 12 o'clock, over lunch or what time of the day was this?

BONGANI KHUMALO: It was around 11 o'clock when I met with him in Qwaqwa.

MR COETZER: Mr Tshabalala, did you see Mr Makwara at a later stage on that same day?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I last saw him on that day.  Sir, please, my name is Khumalo, I am not Tshabalala.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, in other words the last time you saw Mr Makwara was at 11 o'clock the morning when he gave you the instructions, after that you never saw him again, is that correct?

BONGANI KHUMALO: That is correct.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, you then testified that Mr Makwara told you that he will use you in an operation but that Mr Makwara will choose the day and the place.  How can you then receive the place and the date from him if you never saw him again afterwards?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Sir, I did not catch your question.