Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-28

MURPHY MOROBE: Mr Cachalia's submission, as you would have noticed from the submission, they are quite different in some respects, because he also expresses his own views in terms of how these events actually affected him, and I think I have no reason to belittle those feelings and those sentiments expressed.  I think that they are reasonable under these circumstances, having worked with Mr Cachalia all along, and I know that he is not saying them with any disrespect or disregard for anyone's integrity.
 So in general, I do associate myself with them.

MR RICHARD: There is a distinction, you are a Soweto born and bred person and you lived in Soweto during the period in question and when Mr Cachalia, and for that matter, anyone of us on this side, speak on the events surrounding the Football Club, we speak on information received, but you speak from your own experiences, as a resident of the area, correct?

MURPHY MOROBE: That is correct sir.

MR RICHARD: Yes.  (Microphone not on)  That  I can proceed to say that the personality and persona of Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela is a person who in that community, commanded a very significant degree of respect and or authority?

MURPHY MOROBE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: And the community at large, regarded her as a political leader whose wishes and instructions and desires and opinions were to be taken with the utmost seriousness?

MURPHY MOROBE: I think people generally took Mrs Mandela seriously.

MR RICHARD: Now, in Mr Cachalia's submission at page 2, paragraph 6, an outline is given of the Detainees Parents' Support Committee and the lot of the youth in Soweto at the time.  And without going into a debate on it, would my statement that the description set out herein is a description of the origins of what has been termed the lost generation?

MURPHY MOROBE: Not necessarily the origins, I think the lost generation concept would be encapsulated in that description.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now these displaced, traumatised, disrupted individuals and youths and young adults were in fact the personalities and type of people that landed both in the Methodist Mission House and at Mrs Mandela's house, looking for accommodation, sanctuary?

MURPHY MOROBE: I will agree with that.  I think I have alluded to that fact in my statement, in my visitation yesterday.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, that is why I repeated it to you.  Now, at paragraph 6, a description of the lawless indeed, anarchical gangs, groups, bands of young people is given and indeed, some of those might well also have landed at either of the residences, whether it be the Methodist Church or Mrs Mandela's, or any of the other places of sanctuary?

MURPHY MOROBE: That is correct yes.

MR RICHARD: And mixed in them would be in the nature of things, bona fide and loyal and well trained MK cadres as well as others who are doing their best simply to keep what is left of their lives, together?

MURPHY MOROBE: I won't be able to respond in relation to bona fide and well trained MK cadres, as to whether they were part of those groups, I wouldn't know.

MR RICHARD: The next one is these places would also attract what were called ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: One minute left.

MR RICHARD: In this regard Chairperson, I have a number of questions and I have been very patient in listening to Mr Semenya.

MR JOSEPH: I will give Mr Richard some of my time.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson.  There might well also have been infiltration amongst the individuals staying at either house?  Correct or not correct?  Either person can answer the proposition?

MURPHY MOROBE: As we now know and also as we would have suspected at the time, those things did happen.

MR RICHARD: Now, at the time particularly after the event of the 9th of November 1988, is it not true to state that there would be a high degree of paranoia, suspicion, fear that there was an informant, a spy in the Mandela house?  The 9th of November being the shooting of Mr Richardson's house?

MURPHY MOROBE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, if we go back a year before that, to the 16th of June 1986, really two years or so, where the famous "With our matches" speech was given by Mrs Mandela on the East Rand, to the ordinary person involved with the struggle at whatever level, would it not be true that in the minds of those ordinary, and I will use the word very loosely, soldiers, supporters of the struggle, that that was a mandate to kill informers, spies, impimpi's?

MURPHY MOROBE: It is possible, you know when you give speeches, there is actually you can either be literally or expressive or just - you know, so one then has to interpret that, so in a sense in that kind of environment, that interpretation is one of the most probable ones that you can attach to the comments.

MR RICHARD: And, I know that at the period of November 1988 to January 1989, you were out of the country and neither of the two witnesses were directly involved in the events, but I put it that from your experiences, information and deductions, Mrs Mandela was in charge of the people at her house?

MURPHY MOROBE: My sense of the events, even not having been around at that time, it was her house and I presumed she was in charge.

MR RICHARD: Now, do you think it is possible that in the circumstances, she could dissociate herself from the most unfortunate sequence of killings and of human rights violations associated with that short period?

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, I don't know whether the witness is being called to speculate on our state of mind, on my client's state of mind?

CHAIRPERSON: I am not quite certain.

MR RICHARD: From my learned colleague's questioning over this week, there is an intimation that what happened was somehow the product of the activities of Ms Falati and my client.  Well I have been at pains with other witnesses to question whether that is a reasonable possibility and so far the evidence has been that that is not a possibility.
 And I am putting it to these two witnesses as well.  I won't be much longer.

MURPHY MOROBE: Obviously I will fear myself to go into a speculative trail on this one, except to say that my account yesterday indicated that much of our information, certainly when I came back, was in fact - came from the Crisis Committee, who used to interact with Mrs Mandela on these issues.  So to the extent that one can actually intimate anything, it is only in so far as the Crisis Committee reports indicated that Mrs Mandela was part of the process of trying to resolve the crisis they were dealing with.
 Given her location and also proximity to the events that were happening.

MR RICHARD: I am going to ask a leading question, and I will put it more neutral.  Would you believe that the killings of Lolo Sono, Shabalala, Stompie Seipei, Cookie Zwane amongst the others, that my client has applied for amnesty for, could possibly be politically motivated and serious human rights violations?

MURPHY MOROBE: What was in the minds of those young people, Chairperson, it is difficult for me to tell.

MR RICHARD: I think that is as fair an answer as I can get.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard, you have finished?

MR RICHARD: I am checking my notes.  I have many more questions, but I will leave them to the amnesty application, this is not the amnesty application.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.
 Mr Joseph?  You will get half your time, because in your generosity - okay, go ahead.