Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR TIPP: Now Mr Mhlaba, if you were in the second group, and in the middle of the second group, were you still in that position when you turned - you took the right turn into the street where eventually the shooting took place?

INTERPRETER: Can you please repeat your question.

MR TIPP: Certainly.  Let me take it in pieces, Mr Chairman.  You've told us that you were somewhere in the middle of your group, not very far from the front, were you still in that position after you had taken the right turn into the street where the shooting took place?

MR MHLABA: I would say after getting out from the Park Station I wasn't far to the front.  We took a turn to join the other group ...

MR TIPP: My question Mr Mhlaba, is whether you were still in that same position in your group after you had taken the turn, can you tell us?

MR MHLABA: Yes I was still in the same position.

MR TIPP: You then saw the front group come to a stop?

MR MHLABA: Yes, they were already standing.

MR TIPP: Now was this something that was arranged, that you would then joint them and form one group?

MR MHLABA: I would say this was not arranged, but we just saw Mr Mbatha stopping there and calling the second group to join them, that's how we came to meet with them.

MR TIPP: Can you just describe that for us in detail?  Mr Mbatha was in the front of a large group that was in the front of your group, did you in fact see him give instructions that you were all to form one group?

MR MHLABA: I didn't hear him personally speaking, as we were far behind.  I will try to demonstrate - that's how we come to a stop and wait for others.  We normally kneel and wait for the others.  As we saw them in that position, we signalled that they were stopping.  I could see that he was calling us by his hand.

MR TIPP: So you personally saw quite clearly that the senior Induna, Mr Mbatha, was calling your group to merge with his group to form one larger group just in front of that intersection, is that what you're saying?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's what I'm saying.

MR TIPP: What did you understand the reason for this merger to be?

MR MHLABA: I didn't know what was the problem, I thought maybe he wanted to make sure that we stay as one group.  And we didn't know exactly - most of us didn't know where we were going, he was the only man who knew where we were going, so he wanted to make sure that we proceeded together as one group.

MR TIPP: Well up to that point there'd been no problems in the movement of the two groups as they went along the street, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: After the meeting of the groups Mr Mbatha instructed us to proceed, and that's where the shooting started.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba I think perhaps my question was not clearly formulated, I'm going to put it again.  As you moved in at least two groups from Park Station up to the point of that intersection, there had been no difficulties or problems with the movement in separate groups?

MR MHLABA: Yes, there were no problems.

MR TIPP: And I take it that the reason for breaking into smaller groups in the way that you did at Park Station as you moved through streets, is because it's easier to maintain control.

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct.

MR TIPP: See I'm going to suggest to you that this unusual development under the instructions of your senior Induna, that you form into one large group at this intersection, was so that you would form one large group for the purpose of carrying out an attack, and not for the purpose of moving further in the streets in the normal way.

MR MHLABA: I would like to with respect, deny that.  It wasn't for the purpose of shooting because if it was the case of ...(indistinct) where we have to attack, we wouldn't put women in front.  When we - our tradition is that when we go to fight, we normally put the men in front, and it would be men only, with women not involved.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba I am regrettably not very well versed in Zulu tradition and Zulu culture, but perhaps you can tell us, "amandla aweto", are you saying that that forms part of a Zulu traditional praise song or praise chant?

MR MHLABA: I would say, put it clearly, any person, they don't have to be a Zulu-speaking person, people normally shout "amandla aweto", meaning power to us.  This has originated from the Zulu tradition, so I would say that's the reason why we were shouting "power to us" and "we will win as one".

MR TIPP: And the cry or the chant "usotho" is, as I understand it, typically a battle-cry, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: That's not true.  "Usotho" goes to explain that we are the Zulu nation.  As you know, there is "mangosotho", it's a tradition that we are following as Zulu people.

MR TIPP: Mr Mhlaba, isn't it so that when traditionally and historically that when Zulu warriors went to war, that the typical battle-cry that accompanies them as an expression of their pride and their military prowess, was "usotho"?

MR MHLABA: I did not understand your word, you're talking about the soldiers of Kwa-Zulu, or the warriors or Kwa-Zulu?

MR TIPP: I'm speaking as best I can in historical and traditional terms of Zulu warriors, and that when Zulu warriors went to war, "usotho" would be their principal chant expressing their pride and their military strength as they attacked.

MR MHLABA: I never heard that when going to war the warriors would be singing songs or chanting slogans.  I know that people prepare for the war and nobody will instruct them to be singing when going to war, because that would show the directions as to where they are from their opponents if they start singing.

MR TIPP: We'll move on Mr Mhlaba from that.  You have described how your group on instructions from Induna Mbatha merged with the group in front, did you also see a group which was in the street on your right-hand side?  In other words to the right of that very same intersection?

MR MHLABA: I would say the only group that we met was the group in front us.  I didn't see any group on the other side, I only saw one group, the one which was in front of us which we came to form one group.

MR TIPP: Just describe for us please, the process of forming one group, did you for example - or did your group simply merge at the back of the front group, or did you push your way through the front group to the front of it, what exactly happened there?

MR MHLABA: Those in front, as I've already demonstrated, the Induna have stopped them and he signalled by hand, telling us to come closer.  While they were kneeling there we came near, and then we came to join them and we were told to stand up and proceed.  That's what we did, and we continued as one group.

MR TIPP: Let me just put it in these words Mr Mhlaba, is what you are describing then a process where the gap between the back of the first group and the front of the second group, your group, was done away with, and that's all that happened?

MR MHLABA: Yes, we formed one group.

MR TIPP: Well is my description of it correct?

MR MHLABA: As I've already explained, that's how we met and formed one group.

MR TIPP: So you were never near the front of what had been the first group?

MR MHLABA: Yes I wasn't in front, as I've explained before, I was - in the second group I was just in the middle near to the front.  Even when we managed to form one group, I was still in the middle of the one group.  When we joined them we were from behind.  I wouldn't be able to say how far from behind or from the front - I wouldn't be able to say who was in front and who was at the back at that time.