Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-26

WOUTER J BASSON: No, it must be a mistake, it was only Mr Botha.  I have stated previously that I never physically knew or handled Mr Barnard, so it cannot be true.

MR KAHANOVITZ: If you could just turn over to page 2182, you were asked the following question by Mr Coetzee when he was cross-examining you, in about the middle of the page
"Were you in any way familiar with Mr Barnard during your involvement with the CCB?"
your answer:
"Now, I was never aware of Mr Barnard's existence, I only came to hear of that later."
You see that?

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But you were involved in the process that led to Mr Botha being placed on suspension, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And Mr Botha was placed on suspension in relation to the White project, because he and Mr Barnard had been questioned by the police.

WOUTER J BASSON: I think that I stated somewhere that with the exception of that case I came to hear of Mr Barnard for the first time, but not in an official capacity as a member of the CCB.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No I'm sorry but the question is very straightforward
"Were you in way familiar with Mr Barnard during your involvement with the CCB?"
and your answer is straightforward:
"No, I was never aware of Mr Barnard's existence"
but you were quite clearly aware of his existence.

WOUTER J BASSON: I was not familiar with him.  As I've stated, only in that regard was I aware of him.  He was just another person, I didn't know his background.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But you said you didn't even know if he existed, that's your answer.  Quite clearly you knew he existed.

WOUTER J BASSON: I just want to refer you to page 2188, that could provide an explanation for your question.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I see I cross-examined you on that issue already, yes.
	Can you just comment on Mr Barnard's version that was put to you.  He says at all material times he was a salary employee of the CCB, working under the control of Lafras Luitingh.  Are you in a position to confirm or deny that?

WOUTER J BASSON: Later I became aware of that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see, because if Mr Barnard is telling the truth, then you have this very strange situation where people in Region 6 are paying him to do work for the CCB on the premise that he's a freelance operative, whereas in truth and in fact he's already working for the CCB, but for another region.  Do you understand what I'm saying?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Are you telling us that now that you look at it in retrospect, that's exactly what was happening?

WOUTER J BASSON: It would appear as such.

MR KAHANOVITZ: To use Chris Nel's terminology, he says, and it seems you agree with him
"Barnard was prostituting after hours with his friends in Region 6."

MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman, may I interrupt here.  The evidence of Mr Verster was that Mr Barnard had been dismissed from the CCB at an earlier stage already, that was in the beginning of 1989, while this incident occurred somewhere later during the year.  So the statement that Mr Kahanovitz is making to the witness is not correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wessels.  Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: With respect to Mr Wessels, it appears that Mr Barnard does not agree with the allegation that he was dismissed at that time.

MR WESSELS: Well then Mr Barnard will come and give evidence about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Basson ...(intervention)

MR WESSELS: ...(indistinct) is different.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
	Mr Basson, do you know anything about the dismissal of Mr Barnard from the CCB?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, Chairperson, I never knew about it.  As I've stated, later when the CCB's activities were suspended I was informed of it, but during that time I was not aware of it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Maybe I can clarify this, Mr Barnard's representative can correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand Mr Barnard's version it is this, it may well be that it was said that Mr Barnard can't or shouldn't or is dismissed from working for Region 6, but in either event he was working for another region of the CCB, namely Region 7, through Mr Luitingh and he says he continued to work for the CCB and obtained a salary from the CCB until the time of its disbandment.

WOUTER J BASSON: I don't know, don't ask me, I cannot answer that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He goes on to say that he went on to work for DCC afterwards, same directorate that you were working for.  Correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: Well I was not aware of his application in DCC.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright, so while you were there you didn't know that he was also working there, assuming his version to be true?

WOUTER J BASSON: Once again I was a member who was seen by everyone, Mr Barnard was not one of the members who was known by everybody.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Kahanovitz, just one general question if I may put it.
	If a person was working for another region, Region 2 or Region 7 and then was asked to come and do work in Region 6, would he get paid specifically for the work he would do in the other region?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, Chairperson, if he was already a member of a region and he did work in another region, it would be irrelevant, he would maintain his regular salary.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  Now you said - on a different issue, you said you obtained advice not to apply for amnesty for extraterritorial acts, is that correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Who gave you that advice?

WOUTER J BASSON: I cannot say specifically, I think it was legal advice which I gained over the time.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I would have thought given particularly your circumstances, that you were deeply involved in external projects, it would be quite a serious issue for you, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But you say that you can't remember, was it a lawyer?

WOUTER J BASSON: I think so, Chairperson.  I'm responding to legal advice because I'm not an expert on the possible consequences which may follow.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, that I understand but I might expect that you would say, well we got a written opinion from an advocate and I read that, or we got a letter from an attorney, or we went to a meeting.  I'm just trying to work out what the source of your advice was.

WOUTER J BASSON: No, I think it was purely oral in terms of the entire process which has been coming over such a long time.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So you're saying some other member of the CCB told you that somewhere such advice had been obtained?  In other words, you were having discussions with your former colleagues from time to time and somebody in the course of those discussions told you that such advice had been obtained.

WOUTER J BASSON: No, I cannot say that specifically.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well what are you saying?

WOUTER J BASSON: That I have been led by legal advice.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, I would understand your evidence if you then told me that you'd obtained the - you had obtained that advice from such and such a lawyer, but that's not what you're saying, you're saying something different, you're saying that this information was relayed to you.  I'm trying to establish from you when, where and how.

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I have no answer other than this.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What is your answer?  You said in the course of events, what events?

WOUTER J BASSON: During the Harms Commission the foreign project files were made available to the Commission, the following incidents or hearings and the build-up to the TRC, during those times we responded to legal advice that we were going to be discussing predominantly internal matters.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Am I to understand that when the amnesty process was introduced, that a meeting was convened of former CCB representatives in order to discuss the approach that they were going to take?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, it was a joint CCB gathering.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Just tell me about you yourself, you went where to get advice?