Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-19

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes it is true.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I really did not want to interrupt your cross-examination. I thought Mr Dorfling had covered this issue quite extensively. Is there something else that is going to add to what has already been covered by Mr Dorfling?

MR VAN WYK: Madame Commissioner there is just one point in respect of the transcript that my colleague has not pointed out which I would like to address to this witness. Because he testified on page 3725 my colleague has not referred to that page, when this specific point about the marchers was pointed out to the witness. The witness replied: "Well we were told we must make statements because they are needed in court. Had I been given sufficient time to think back I think I would have been in a position to remember substantial events. And I would have been in a position to state then in my statement." My question I am addressing to this witness I want to know you had three years time to give an affidavit or to give your version of what happened. On this time and date when you gave your affidavit was your memory not serving you well any more or what is your explanation?

MOSES VELI LLALE: After three years this happened I had forgotten some other things.

MR VAN WYK: And did you only remember them when you were reminded about them by your colleagues? Would that be a correct statement?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Some of the things because we were together. We did try to remind one another.

MR VAN WYK: Now if I understand your application also correctly you were afraid that your leaders might be assassinated. Is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes.

MR VAN WYK: Were you told that by anybody or was that your own impression?

MOSES VELI LLALE: My duty or my function that day was to guard and protect the leaders.

MR VAN WYK: But they were inside the building. Is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes.

MR VAN WYK: But you were not told by anybody that the leaders would be killed is that correct or assassinated?

MOSES VELI LLALE: No that was just in my mind three years ago.

MR VAN WYK: I want to put it to you on behalf of the objectors that I appear for that there was no attack on Shell House and that your shooting was not justified.

MOSES VELI LLALE: When I am responding to that effect I am saying the shooting was justified and the fact that there was an attack on that day.

MR VAN WYK: So your attitude is you did not exceed any bounds of self-defence, is that what you are saying?

MOSES VELI LLALE: The fact that I exceeded I do agree to that but some other things I don't agree with.

MR VAN WYK: I have no further questions. Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR VAN WYK: .

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman firstly I would like to place on record the findings of Judge Nugent at the inquest. They are attached to the application of the applications. In that finding there was no finding that a policeman was stabbed by one of the marchers to put it that way. So I just want to place that on record in respect of what the witness testified that he heard that in the findings.

CHAIRPERSON: Evidence given.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman really not to the effect that he was stabbed in the sense that he was attacked. His evidence was that he was pushed out of the way by the group. I don't want - because that witness is probably coming to testify. So I don't want to now precede his evidence so to speak. But I just want to place that on record that there was nothing in the findings about this.

CHAIRPERSON: We understand.

MR PRETORIUS: Then one further thing Mr Chairman in regard to the proposition that my learned friend Mr Bizos put that seeing a firearm being fired that contains you must see the bullet leaving the particular firearm. I am aware that Mr Bizos was at that stage not present during the meeting but at a certain stage during the inquest findings or during the inquest proceedings there was a large discussion about what happened at library gardens and there was a video shown where one could clearly see when a firearm was being fired by the way a person's hand react when the firearm is being fired as well as the smoke etcetera that emerges immediately when it is being fired. So I just want to place it on record that, that was in the discussion while everybody, what I mean there was legal representatives of all sides present. I particularly don't recall that Mr Bizos was present. But it is possible to see that the firearm is being fired. You do not have actually to see the bullet leaving the firearm. Thank you.
	Then I wish to proceed as follows.

MR TIPP: Chairperson before my learned friend continues I am trying to find the exact spot in the judgment where Judge Nugent deals with the two policemen. They were van Reenen and van Greenen who ran up to the marchers and one of them was pushed out of the way. The evidence was definitely to the effect that as one of them, I believe it was van Greenen was pushed out of the way - that he received an injury from a spear. Not necessarily that he was stabbed but it definitely drew blood. I will find the reference.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) at the appropriate time.

MR TIPP: I will.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Llale the other amnesty applications or affidavits you made did it regard the killing of people?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I do agree that there are people who got injured. Some were killed in that incident.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Llale I am not referring to this particular incident. I am referring to evidence that you have made other applications for amnesty and other affidavits were filed in regard to other incidents regarding amnesty. And I am asking you in those affidavits and those applications do they regard the killing of people?

MOSES VELI LLALE: It said there are people who got killed in that incident.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Llale I am repeating my question.

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't he answered it? He says that there were people who were killed.

MR PRETORIUS: He refers to this incident Honourable Chairman. I specifically regard, I asked him not regarding this incident but regarding his other amnesty applications did they pertain the killing of people. Not this incident, other incidents.

MR LAX: Do you understand the question? The question is you testified that you were asked previously whether you made other applications for amnesty. You said yes you had. Now Mr Pretorius is asking in relation to those applications for amnesty were people killed or injured?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Maybe I don't understand quite clear. The applications are two. There is one that was submitted last year. One this year. I will like for him to be clear and tell me which one.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Llale let me try and explain this and also you are at liberty to tell me if you are prepared to answer. The question is amongst the amnesty applications - besides this one that we are here about today where you have asked for amnesty, besides the Shell House incident - could it be that you are asking for amnesty because there are people who were killed or injured. That is the question from Mr Pretorius.

MOSES VELI LLALE: What I was showing is that I did shoot towards the marchers. If there were some who were killed or injured I am asking for amnesty.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Besides this application that we are about today are there any other applications where you are applying for amnesty?

MOSES VELI LLALE: No there are none.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Does that answer you Mr Pretorius?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes except Madame member of the Committee that previously he said there were other affidavits and that is specifically why I asked those questions.