Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR MARAIS: Mr Nofomela, in your affidavit there is a paragraph dealing with an attack on ANC members in Swaziland in November 1983 under the command of Colonel Jack Cronje and that is the incident where three occupants of a certain house were killed.  Do you confirm the contents of this paragraph in your affidavit?

MR NOFOMELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it in the supplementary affidavit you are talking about?

MR MARAIS: No, Mr Chairman, that is in the first affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: His application.

MR MARAIS: His application.

CHAIRPERSON: What page are you referring to?

MR MARAIS: Typed page 8, paragraph 5.

UNKNOWN: Typed page 8.

MR MARAIS: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Can't we refer to the indexed papers?

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman, I did not receive one of those books so I don't have the indexed papers.

UNKNOWN: It is page 11.

JUDGE WILSON: I haven't got them either, so for my sake will you keep referring to the typed number as well.

MR MARAIS: I will do that, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: This relates to the theft of a vehicle in Port Elizabeth?
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MR MARAIS: No, Mr Chairman, that's paragraph 5.

CHAIRPERSON: It is paragraph 5 as I have it.

MR MARAIS: Paragraph 5 of the application for amnesty of Nofomela deals with an attack on ANC members in Swaziland.

UNKNOWN: Paragraph 5 on page 8, the typed page, refers to the theft of an Audi vehicle in Port Elizabeth.

JUDGE WILSON: No, not Nofomela.

CHAIRPERSON: That's Chikalanga.

UNKNOWN: Oh, that's Chikalanga.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman, the witness has already confirmed the contents of this paragraph now, so I will move on to the next paragraph which is paragraph 6 on typed page 10 of the application.  Mr Nofomela, this paragraph deals with an attack on unknown persons in Swaziland in approximately November 1985, again under the command of Colonel Cronje.  Do you confirm the contents of this paragraph?

MR NOFOMELA: Yes.

MR MARAIS: The next paragraph is paragraph 8 on page 13 of your application.  It deals with a shooting incident in Lamontville near Durban, also referred to as Chesterville, where you dropped off certain persons who went into the township where a shooting incident took place.  Do you confirm the contents of this paragraph?

MR NOFOMELA: Yes.

MR MARAIS: Paragraph 9 on page 15 deals with an incident near Amsterdam in the Eastern Transvaal in approximately 1985 or 1986, where you were involved in a shooting incident with Major Eugene de Kock and others, do you confirm the contents of this paragraph?

MR NOFOMELA: Yes.
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BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Excuse me, just for the sake of clarity.  In paragraph 8, is it or is it not the same matter in which Mr Mpshe told us that initially people could not, the victims could not be identified and they have now since been identified or can now be identified, or is it a different matter, or a different incident?

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman, this is the incident that was discussed in chambers yesterday, and the decision was that it will be dealt with in the Durban area if there is an application later by Mr De Kock in this regard, since the evidence that this applicant can give only deals with him driving the people who committed the actual shooting to the area and that he cannot give any evidence with regard to the killings itself.
	Mr Chairman, paragraph 10 was not included in the list as well.  I notice it now and according to Mr Mpshe, this witness could also not be traced and will not be here in September.  For that reason that can also be included in this list of incidents where the evidence or the application is only confirmed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman and members of the Committee, in respect of matter No 10, that one of the man called September, I could not or I was not in a position at all to can trace the next of kin inasfar as this person September is concerned, and as a result we came to the conclusion that it can be dealt with as a confirmatory.

CHAIRPERSON: Next.

MR MARAIS: Paragraph 10 then, Mr Nofomela, is an incident that deals with the abduction of a certain September from a police station on the outskirts of Manzini in Swaziland, do you confirm the contents of this paragraph?
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MR NOFOMELA: Yes, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Has the Commissioner of Swaziland Police been notified of this application?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Shouldn't he have been?  Are they not interested?  There is an allegation that the prisoner was abducted from police cells by arrangement with the Commissioner of the Swaziland Police.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I did not see it in that light and that is why I did not inform him.

CHAIRPERSON: There was evidence in a previous hearing, was there not, in which it was said that the Commissioner of the Police in Swaziland was susceptible to the influence of the South African Security Police.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman, there was by one applicant Dirk Coetzee, that he actually was operating with them.   That's correct.
	Mr Chairman, I just want to correct a mistake I've made here about the victim September.  I thought we were talking about General, because they are using code numbers.  September I said we could not trace them.  That is not true.  I have just checked on my notes.  September's relatives I did trace.  September's full names are Glory Sedibe.  In this matter I contacted, as I indicated this morning, the Minister of Defence, Joe Modise, who is the brother-in-law to September, and I subsequently learnt that actually the wife to Minister Joe Modise is a sister to September and I spoke to her as well.  This was on 11 December 1996.  The sister to September, that is Mrs Jackie Modise, agreed that I can send Form 2 to her as the sister, which then was done.  This morning at 6 in the morning I phoned Mr Joe Modise's
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house to find out when are they available.  Mrs Jackie Modise said to me that she will not attend but she has deemed it necessary to forward the amnesty Form 2 to Glory Sedibe, that is September's wife, who is presently in Zambia and she continued and stated that Glory Sedibe, who is September, has a brother who is currently in the Transvaal, but she does not know the address nor the telephone number.  The other brother knows the particulars and this will be forwarded to me and this has not been done.   That is all, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: I note that the applicant says in his application
"During 1987 I met September and he informed me that he was then working for Section 1C at Vlakplaas".

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I've seen that, Sir, in the application.  But the information given to me by Minister Joe Modise is that September is dead.

UNKNOWN: Is dead?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That's what he said to me.  Then I spoke to the sister, Mrs Jackie Modise.  But as I say, the wife is still available, but in Zambia.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mpshe, would I then be correct to say you have not caused your Form 2 to be served on Mrs Sedibe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: (Inaudible)

SISI KHAMPEPE: When was that?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It was served on her, I cannot remember the date, but I can pull out the return of service, and when I spoke to her this morning she confirmed having received it and says she has decided to forward it to the wife.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I am saying Mrs Sedibe, the wife to the late
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code name September.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Let me put it this way.  Service on the wife has not been done because she is in Zambia, but service was done on the sister, Mrs Jackie Modise, who then today told me that she has forwarded the documents I served on her to the wife in Zambia.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What proof would you have that Mrs Jackie Modise has done that, has forwarded such documents?