Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

GLADWELL SELAHLE: It was in the morning and everybody who goes to work, would stand there to catch taxi's, so they were going to work.

MR LAX: How do you know they weren't from the hostel, it was right next to the hostel?  They may have been hostel dwellers in that taxi for all you knew, you don't know who they were, isn't that so?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Can you repeat your question.

MR LAX: How do you know they weren't hostel dwellers in that taxi who were shot at?   You didn't find out who they were, they could have just as easily have been hostel dwellers, this was right next to the hostel, isn't that so?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Had they been hostel dwellers, we would have not find their family members at the scene.  Some of the people at the scene were crying and I knew them from the township.
	That is why I am saying they were from the township, going to work.

MR LAX: Well, if you knew them from the township, then you would have known who those people were and you have just said you didn't know who they were?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: It might happen sir, that I don't know you, but I know your children.
	That is why I am saying there were children around who came from the township, they were crying.  We know them, they are from the township, so we concluded that because they were crying, there family members were there and they were from the township.

MR LAX: But then you would describe me as somebody's parents, someone you know's parent, isn't that right?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I would say that.

MR LAX: And you didn't?  I am going to move on in any event.  The other two people that ran into the hostel with this deceased, there were three of them, right?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes, they were three.

MR LAX: Who were they?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I indicated earlier on that we did not know Mkhabela himself, we only came to know him after he was killed.  But we were looking for the three of them, but the first one we got hold of, was Mkhabela and I was arrested immediately after this incident.

MR LAX: You don't seem to have taken any steps to try and identify the other two, to try and apprehend the other two?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: We did not even take steps to apprehend Mkhabela.  It was our first time to see them, and after quite some time we met him a second time at the firms, and on the 16th, we apprehended him.
	But our main aim was to get the three of them together, but it happened that we first got hold of Mkhabela.

MR LAX: After the first time you saw Mkhabela in his taxi, and you made a note of the number plate and so on, do you remember that was your evidence?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I remember that.

MR LAX: Did you ever see that taxi involved in any other violence of any description?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: We went to the firms, thinking that Mkhabela had walked to the firms.  To our surprise, he was in a taxi, that is when we decided to take the taxi registrations, to trace it.

CHAIRPERSON: Just answer the question, listen to the question and confine your responses to the question being put to you.
	Mr Lax is going to put the question again to you and confine your response only and only to what the question requires of you.  If you are unable to do so, just give an indication that you are unable to respond, instead of responding incorrectly.

MR LAX: The question was very simple, I reminded you that you had identified this kombi, that you had taken down its registration number, do you remember that?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes, I remember that.

MR LAX: The question was, after that, did you ever see this kombi which you had now identified, involved in any violence?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: No.

MR LAX: Did you ever see the man described as Mkhabela, involved in any other violence from the time of this incident till the time you killed him?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: No.

MR LAX: Do you not think that this incident might have been taxi violence, as opposed to political violence?

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, maybe Mr Lax needs to clarify what exactly he means by that.

MR LAX: I mean competition between different taxi owners, as opposed to a political attack per se.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean the shooting on the 25th of January could have been as a result of a taxi competition between taxi owners?

MR LAX: Exactly, correct.  Correct.

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Even if it was a competition between the taxi owners, it had no right to include the community.
	If it was the competition, it would have been ...

CHAIRPERSON: Just listen to the question and confine your responses to the question being posed to you.  Did you think that the shooting on the 25th of January could have been associated with the wars, the taxi wars that you and I are aware of?

MR LAX: The question was, was it not possible that it might have been?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible that that shooting could have been taxi war related as opposed to a shooting that could have been from one organisation against the members of the community?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I really do not know.

MR LAX: Well, your earlier answer was that even if it was, it shouldn't have been allowed to happen, isn't that right?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: You retracted from that.  No, I think I made you to retract from that, because I didn't think you were responding to the question that was put to you.
	You can't make your comment on what you have been made by the Chair to retract from.

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Can I carry on to what I wanted to say?

CHAIRPERSON: With my Committee member's indulgence, I just wanted to proceed to find out when you say you can't have an opinion whether the shooting of the 25th of January could have been taxi war related or could have been conflict related, that is the conflict that had engulfed the township.  Why do you say you couldn't have known that, had there been any wars between two opposing taxi organisations in your community, I mean in your area at that time, around January 1994?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: What convinced us that it was not a taxi war, was the shooting of people.  Had it been a fight between taxi owners, it would have included and involved taxi drivers and taxi owners only.
	We were convinced that it was not a taxi feud, it was directed to the community.

CHAIRPERSON: You know Mr Selahle, it will do you a world of good, if you did not understand a question, you requested a question to be repeated or if you really did not understand the ambit of the question, you requested the person who posed the question, to simplify it for you, so that you can respond appropriately to questions being put to you.
	You have not responded to my question.  My question is have there been taxi wars at the time of this incident, that is the 25th of January 1994 that you were aware of, in your area?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: No, there was no taxi war.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Lax, you may proceed.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.  Did I hear you correctly that the deceased was busy giving you back the change that he had made up for you at the time he was shot?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: He was counting it, preparing it for me.

MR LAX: But earlier this afternoon, after lunch, you specifically said that he was giving you the change that he had made up?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: He was preparing the change for me.

MR LAX: No, there is a big difference Mr Interpreter, between giving him the change and preparing the change.  He went to him, he asked him to make the change.  The man then made the change, his evidence earlier this afternoon was that the man was giving me the change at the time he was shot.

GLADWELL SELAHLE: It must be the Interpreter's fault, I said this person while he was preparing the change for me, he was shot at.

MR LAX: How did the R50-00 note get full of blood?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: The witness is demonstrating as I put my hand like this on the window, he was preparing the change and when he was shot at, the blood spilled.