Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-08

MR KOOPEDI: A very brief submission, Chairperson.
	Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, it's my submission that the applicant before you has complied with the requirements of the Act in his request for a grant of amnesty.  It's my submission that this applicant has fully disclosed all the relevant facts in this matter.  It is also my submission that this applicant has not benefited anything personally out of having taken part in this attack.
	I also submit that the attack on the police station be it for disarming or robbing the firearms at the police station or even killing or shooting at police was or should be seen as a politically motivated action in that the police were at that stage perceived and seen to be part of the apartheid machinery.
	And finally, I wish to submit and perhaps refer the Honourable Committee to page 16 of the bundle of documents.  This is an affidavit by one of the victims who has not come and where he states that he in fact used his firearm, his work firearm to shoot and perhaps this is said in response the two other gentlemen who says they did not have firearms and did not shoot.  Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi.  Ms Mtanga, any submissions?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no submissions but I have been asked by the Mbata family.  Mr Alfred Mbata is the family of Mr Mbata.  I also have Mrs Mbata, the mother and the wife of Mr Mbata.  The family's position is that they are not opposing but they would like the Commission to compensate them in some way.  Mr Alfred Mbata indicated that when the applicant intended to destroy the system, he did not only destroy the system, it destroyed his family because as a family they depended on Mr Mbata, he was their breadwinner, he supported them.  Without him they've really struggled and Mr Mbata left a son who is now 18 years old.  The mother is not working and they're using their pensions to support this child.  That is all Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: So that is, as I understand it, that is basically a request to declare those people you've mentioned, victims in terms of the Act?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: We'll have to get full names and details for R and R purposes?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, I do have the names.  May I place them on record?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MTANGA: The father is Alfred Mbata.  The mother Themba Koiye Mbata.  The deceased's wife is Witness Tolagelis Tolye, she's unemployed.  And the son, that is the son of the deceased is Obias Menze ...(indistinct) Mbata, who is 18 years old and is doing Standard 10.
	And the two policemen, it's Mr Simon Peter Maonye and the second policeman is Medius Malope.  That is all Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga.  Mr Koopedi, your client is not in custody, is he?

MR KOOPEDI: No Chairperson, he is not in custody and in fact since he paid bail in 1991 he was never called to court or anything.  He is not in custody he is employed with the South African National Defence Force, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So there's no pending, immediately pending court proceeding?

MR KOOPEDI: To his knowledge there isn't, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Thank you.  Yes?

ADV SIBANYONI: According to the document he is not certain whether he eventually got indemnity?

MR KOOPEDI: That is so.  According to my instructions is that he in fact applied for indemnity at that time when he went out while he was at Zambia, he was never told anything.  He came back, he was arrested, nothing came forth on the indemnity so he's not sure whether he did get it or not or whether the fact that no prosecution ensued comes from the fact whether he got amnesty.  He doesn't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes, thank you Mr Koopedi.  That concludes the formal part of the proceedings.  The panel will consider the application, the evidence and other material that has been placed before us and we will present a decision on the application as soon as the circumstances permit.  We have noted the facts which Ms Mtanga has placed on record in regard to the next-of-kin of the late Mr Mbata and appropriate steps would be taken in that regard.  So under the circumstances the judgement would be reserved in the matter.
	Mr Koopedi, we thank you for your assistance and Ms Mtanga.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We will excuse you if you don't any further business here?

MR KOOPEDI: No, I do not.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, then we will excuse you and we also thank the other interested parties for having attended and for having participated in the proceedings.
	Ms Mtanga, what is the position with the next case?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, for the next matter we have three applicants, the Phashas.  They're all in custody at Barberton.  They were notified.  We are experiencing some difficulties because we don't know what's going on.  I asked the office to try and phone the prison and find out what is going on because they have not yet arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: They haven't arrived yet?

MS MTANGA: And also, the families, the Phasha family did received notices, I've got acknowledgement of receipt of our notice but they also have not attended.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MTANGA: So if the Committee can adjourn and then I'll make a follow up to my - I'll telephone.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll adjourn and then you will inform us what the position is with that application?

MS MTANGA: Yes I will, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  We then adjourn.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Mtanga the Phasha matter is formally still on the role.  What is the position in regard to that?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, in the Phasha matter we've discovered that the three notices that were supposed to be sent to the prison authorities are for the applicants to be brought to the hearing, we actually sent to the lawyer, Mr Tony Richard.  Having received these notices, Mr Richard wrote a letter to Cape Town asking what must we do with them but that was never responded to and apparently they didn't discover this mistake.  So what we've done now, in actual fact the prisoners have not been notified so the applicants could not attend.  We've been advised that one applicant is at Witbank, the second one is at Baviaansport in Pretoria and the third one is at Barberton.  The two, that is Pretoria and Barberton will take very long for them to come here so it will be impossible for us to hear them today, all three applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes, well we're not sitting tomorrow?
is that correct?

MS MTANGA: No we're not.

CHAIRPERSON: So under those circumstances we will have to deal with those applications on Wednesday.

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I assume that the applicants will be present by then?

MS MTANGA: Yes, we'll try and have them brought to Witbank to join the third person who is here in Witbank, that is the one applicant who is in Pretoria and the other one is in Barberton, they'll be brought to Witbank, all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Mr Richard, yes, we must apologise for the mix up with the arrangements for the applicants.  So we trust that it would be possible to get that together for Wednesday and then we can hopefully dispose of the matter then.

MR RICHARD: ...(inaudible) for the 8th until the 11th for the hearing and if need be, I can continue onto Friday.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR RICHARD: My only request is that on Wednesday the prisoners be brought here at 8 o'clock so I'll have a brief moment to talk further with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR RICHARD: And I believe my learned colleague has a similar request regarding the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Yes, we have noted that through Mr Richard, for you as well.  So Ms Mtanga will you please attend to that?  We would also like at least to start the proceedings at a decent time on Wednesday.