Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-22

MR MALAN: Now then my question is, this argument, this exchange of words, this squabble that you talked about where you were shouting and he was saying to you anything he wanted.  Did that take place over a distance of approximately 10 metres, were you standing that far apart when you were exchanging words or where you closer to each other?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: We were still at that distance because he was my worst enemy in politics.  I wouldn't allow him to talk just next to me, I wouldn't allow that to happen.  He was howling from a distance and ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: You see, why I'm asking this is the impression we had and unfortunately I didn't put this to Mr Mngomezulu is, the impression I had at least, speaking for myself was, that he gave evidence that this Chris Phewa came up to him in a very threatening manner and that he had to protect himself and that's why he shot?  So that's not correct?  He shouted from a distance and you had the discussion and then you shot him?
Is that your version?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: What I can say is this, I cannot say he did not pose a threat, he did pose a threat as our enemy, they were always armed.  You wouldn't know what would happen after that.  I wouldn't say he was coming as a friend.  As our enemy there were people who were always armed.

MR MALAN: Okay, then you're talking about them being always armed, there's no evidence whatsoever that they were armed on that day.  In fact your co-applicant made it quite clear that he did not see an arm or any arms on the deceased or on anyone there?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes I do not dispute that.

MR MALAN: You confirm that they were unarmed?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: I did not search him to see whether he was armed or not.

MR MALAN: Then - thank you, let me just refer you then to another matter which I want to clear up in my own mind and that is the relationship between the SACP and the ANC.  Now if I understand the evidence of yourself and your co-applicant correctly, you are saying that the SACP formed their own group, the Amabuvo whatever.

CHAIRPERSON: The Amabuvo.

MR MALAN: Is it Amabuvo?  The Amabuvo formed their own group and you were unhappy about them organising separately?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Mr Phewa is one of the people who joined this Amabuvo and he became there sort of leader.  It's not that I was dissatisfied about this but the only thing that I was not satisfied with, there was this aim of theirs, trying to destroy the ANC.  I know very well that SACP and ANC there is some alliance but they were just fighting the ANC.

MR MALAN: Yes but I just want to find out exactly what the problem is.  If I refer you to the transcript of the evidence of Mr Mngomezulu at the previous occasion - Ms Moodley, this is on page 380 of the transcript.  Mr Mngomezulu gave evidence that the Amabuvo formed their own organisation and the ANC members were unhappy with that.  380.

MS MOODLEY: Yes.

MR MALAN: But at the same time he understood it that Mr Phewa who was their leader at the time wanted to become the chairperson in the place of Mr Mkhize, is that correct?  Was that also your reading of the situation?  He wanted Mkhize out and he wanted to replace him?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes as a person who was fighting ANC they said that they wanted to remove Mr Mkhize, they did not want him there, that is their means of trying to remove him.  That is why they had to form the SACP and they wanted to remove him.

MR MALAN: But they wanted to replace him as chairman of the ANC, you see that was the evidence of the branch.  That's what Mngomezulu said he thought the position was.  In other words he knew that there was an alliance and he gave that evidence.  he understood that the ANC and SACP were in an alliance.  Yes there was conflict, rivalry within the alliance.  The Amabuvo organised separately and they wanted to depose Mr Mkhize and to replace him with Mr Phewa.  Was that also your understanding?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: They way I saw the situation was that they wanted to fight ANC.  They wanted to fight ANC, that was proven in their activities.

MR MALAN: Yes, no let's accept that for the moment.  I'm just asking about the organisation.  They wanted Mr Mkhize out.  Who did they want in his place as chairperson, was it Phewa they wanted in his place?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: It is clear that they wanted to place Phewa.

MR MALAN: In Mkhize's place?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: It is clear that that is what I think they wanted to place Mr Phewa because he was once an ANC member before he formed this other organisation.

MR MALAN: My reading of the situation is and I'm not referring to the situation as you understood the fighting, I'm not talking about the fighting, but the rivalry was and that's the evidence as I analyze it, the rivalry was within the alliance between the Amabuvo group and the ANC group as to who was to be the chairperson in Wembezi.  The ANC wanted Teaspoon Mkhize, the Amabuvo wanted Phewa, is that right?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes that is correct.

MR MALAN: Thank you, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moodley, emanating from the questions from the panel and I think it's from the panel only because you were given an opportunity to re-examine after Ms Mtanga's cross-examination.  Are there any questions that you want to put to Mr Madlala on clarity only?

MS MOODLEY: No, not.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Does this therefore conclude the evidence of Mr Madlala?

MS MOODLEY: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madlala, you are hereby excused, you can return to your chair behind.  You may remain seated next to your attorney.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moodley, where do we go from here?

MS MOODLEY: I want to make submissions, Chairperson, I had intended to call an expert witness here today but Peter Kerschoff is now late and is not in a position to present evidence.  What I want to ask permission of this Commission to make submissions and hand in written documentation of excerpts of a Monitor Report which gives context in perspective of Wembezi.  I hear the concerns that one might have with understanding the context and the conditions pertaining at the particular time in Wembezi if I have permission to do that?

CHAIRPERSON: You may do that, you can give us whatever information you wish to give us.  Bearing in mind obviously that for us to be able to understand the context we cannot go beyond the comprehension of the individual applicants themselves, how they understood the situation, what motivated them to commit the deeds for which they are seeking amnesty, we cannot go beyond the requirements of Section 20, sub-section 3 pertinently but you may proceed to hand over any documents you want us to have sight of.

MS MOODLEY: Yes, I'm mindful of the limitations and the restrictions that the Commission operates under and I do believe that any information that I hand in is going to be useful in determining those very issues in Section 20.  The Monitor is a monthly report that has come out over the years.  I'm going to refer to those individual monitors that I have made copies of the relevant pages and ask for those particular excerpts to be read into the record because they relate to the actual incident of the SACP/ANC conflict in the Wembezi area.

MR MALAN: Sorry Ms Moodley, may I just make it clear to you that once you submit the document it becomes part of the record.  You don't have to read it into the record, it is part of the official record.

MS MOODLEY: No I understand that but in my understanding and having followed the TRC hearings elsewhere there has not been adverse response to actually reading into the record those relevant portions because I'd like for that to be highlighted.  There are just two or three lines of the relevant page.

CHAIRPERSON: Well Ms Moodley, you know ...(intervention)

MS MOODLEY: But I'm guided by the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.