Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-14

DANIEL MAHAYIYA: Some of them did not want to hear a thing about the headmen because of the conditions prevailing at the time and things that used to happen to the people who used to support them.  They used to be threatened and the people used to threaten them, threaten to destroy their properties.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you all regarded as supporters or even as puppets of Oupa Gozo?

DANIEL MAHAYIYA: Yes, we were regarded as puppets because if they want to do anything they would say that we were Gozo's informers and we were supporting the ADM, we were supporting his organisation that was ADM.  That would take us nowhere.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it true that generally around the Eastern Cape there was general discomfort for the idea and the system of chieftainship?  People wanted a democratic government, not so?

DANIEL MAHAYIYA: Yes, that is so, people wanted their own government.

CHAIRPERSON: And while you say you had 90% of the vote, we're not too sure what that means, but ultimately you were appointed by Gozo, not so?  If he didn't like what the people said then he wouldn't appoint you, correct?

DANIEL MAHAYIYA: There were headmen who were overthrown during the overthrowing of Ciskei Government and some of the traditional leaders.  The chairmen were forced to take the role - chairmen from the community were forced to take the role.  I think it was in 1991, after 1990. When the chairpersons were still busy doing the job, Brigadier Gozo was dissatisfied because of the manner they used to do the things because most of these chairmen were youth and he decided to do away with this and he forced the situation, he forced the residents to elect the headmen.

CHAIRPERSON: And even in your case, while you may or may not have got a 90% vote, ultimately you were appointed by Gozo and he was the person that had the power to appoint you and to elect you or not, not so?

DANIEL MAHAYIYA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And is that not the reason why the people who did not agree with this system say that you were part of Gozo's regime?  Is that not so?

DANIEL MAHAYIYA: Yes, that was the case.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MS COLLETT: Now as a headman under this political umbrella, did you suffer any losses or attacks at the hands of anybody?

DANIEL MAHAYIYA: Most of the times I used to be attacked from the 19th of June 1992, if my memory serves me well, up to the 18th of March 1993.  I was never happy, myself and my family.  My children were expelled from school because of the problems that were taking place in the villages.

MS COLLETT: Was your house attacked?

DANIEL MAHAYIYA: Yes, more than once.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, I think the interpreter misunderstood him.  I think he said his house was attacked two times.

INTERPRETER: Many times.

ADV SANDI: How many times was your house attacked?

DANIEL MAHAYIYA: Many times, not two times.

MS COLLETT: And what sort of attacks were these?

DANIEL MAHAYIYA: They were attacking my house with petrol bombs.  Others would come with petrol and pour it on my windows.  I used to extinguish the fire alone, and the police would come and even the committees wouldn't come to my help because they were also being attacked by the people.

MS COLLETT: Now is it correct that as a headman you were appointed for a three year period?

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you give up this headmanship if you were attacked by people?  And I assume ...[intervention]

DANIEL MAHAYIYA: I called the residents with the aim of trying to explain to them that to me it's very difficult because everything of mine is being destroyed.  I wanted to leave the position but when I went to Brigadier Gozo the situation would be difficult because they told me that I do not have a right to get down because I was supposed to be there for at least three years.

CHAIRPERSON: But surely that's nonsense, and you knew that? Here - and let me complete the question, I'm asking why you didn't give up the post because it appears that there were so many people attacking you and objecting to this whole business?  Even the police and army couldn't control it, so they must have been bigger than the army and therefore so many people objected to the system.  Why didn't you give it up?

DANIEL MAHAYIYA: It was very difficult for me because some of the headmen who left their positions were never happy, even after that they were victims.  There was no help.  They would be forced to leave their homes.  That was the situation.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you were in no better position being a headman, isn't it?

DANIEL MAHAYIYA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Therefore I'm asking, why didn't you give it up, or did you want to keep it with all the benefits?  Wasn't it attractive to be a headman because you were being paid for it?

DANIEL MAHAYIYA: That was not the issue to me, that was a problem that was taking place in the offices.  The were problems and my people would be told to bring their headman.  The people used to come to me and ask me and beg me to help them.  And mostly the elderly people in the village used to come to me for help.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it true that it was Brigadier Gozo who had control over who received pensions or not, all that?

DANIEL MAHAYIYA: Sometimes most of the things would come from his office and he would block some of the processes because he had his own democratic movement at the time and he was totally against the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MS COLLETT: Now when you went to Brigadier Gozo and complained that you were being attacked and victimised as a result of being a headman, what did he do to assist you?

DANIEL MAHAYIYA: He called the Commissioner of Police and the highest authority in the army.  I was given five soldiers and five policemen to safeguard me for some time at my home.

MS COLLETT: And did that help?

DANIEL MAHAYIYA: That did not help because it was difficult.  It was during the time when the people were preparing for the march that ended up as the Bisho massacre and the soldiers were taken from my home because there was a shortage and therefore they had to be deployed there.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if it didn't help, these policemen and five members of the army, that's 10 people all, wasn't it clear to you that Gozo couldn't help you in this problem and he was going to do absolutely nothing to help you there, fight your plight?  Didn't you know that at the time?  It was clear for everybody to see.

DANIEL MAHAYIYA: Yes, it was clear that he was actually failing to help us because I was not alone.  Most of the headmen from Ciskei had one complaint because we used to meet and discuss the matters and we would take it further.  And our complaint was one, that we are being attacked by the people.

CHAIRPERSON: And as you say he was discriminating against people whom he thought did not support his political party, isn't that so?

DANIEL MAHAYIYA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you couldn't do anything about that.  Once he decided that he's not going to give benefits of a certain kind to a particular person, that would be the end of the matter, isn't that so?

DANIEL MAHAYIYA: As headmen we had a contribution because some of the things, we would object to some of the things that would help people, trying to help the people and we would go on trying to help the people until their problems were solved.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm asking you, once Gozo had made a decision on a particular aspect relating to benefits to people, he would not change his mind?  That would be after you had pleaded with him and tried to show him why he should give that benefit, not so?

DANIEL MAHAYIYA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So even you couldn't help a particular person once Gozo had ruled on the issue, isn't it?

DANIEL MAHAYIYA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So then even you could not help certain people, correct?

DANIEL MAHAYIYA: There were people that I couldn't help.