Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-25

CAPT MENTZ: No Mr Chairman.  If I remember correctly during the investigation the deduction was 
made and it came out in the hearing as well, the trial, that there had not been adequate evidence against 
Nofomela, but I remember on the last day of the trial when the finding was given, some of the ascaris were 
sitting in court.  I have since heard at that stage of Vlakplaas that they tracked terrorists etc, and on the day 
some of his fellow colleagues were sitting there in court.
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DE JAGER: 118

ADV DE JAGER: Was that the first time during those episodes that you met Eugene De Kock himself?

CAPT MENTZ: No sir.  De Kock was at the murder division offices long before and that was when I met 
him, he was still a Captain at this stage, not a Major.

ADV DE JAGER: So your arrest of Nofomela had nothing to do with the fact that you were going to work 
at Vlakplaas?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chairman, I would say that at that stage I got to know Vlakplaas members and 
they got to know me.  We often met at the police canteen in Pretoria and there I got to know them better, 
and they approached me to find out whether I would be interested in coming to work with them.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.
NO FURTHER

<UNKNOWN>: S BY

ADV DE JAGER: .

<UNKNOWN>: S BY

SISI KHAMPEPE: Didn't you testify
yesterday that before you were attached to Vlakplaas Mr Hechter occasionally extended an invitation to 
you to join them on some of the operations?

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct Chairperson.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you must have known at that stage what kind of operations Vlakplaas was involved 
in?

CAPT MENTZ: When I was contacted by Captain Hechter, he was not attached to Vlakplaas, he was 
with Brigadier Cronje at Pretoria, they had nothing to do with Vlakplaas at the stage.  He was just working 
with the Pretoria branch.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thanks for the explanation. You've also led evidence today that the experience that you 
had when Mr Ngqulunga was brutally killed, was very shocking to you and it has left emotional scars?

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct Chairperson.
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

SISI KHAMPEPE: 118

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now, before you went on to execute the instructions to eliminate Mr Ngqulunga, had 
you discussed as members who had been picked up by, is it Colonel Dave Baker on how those instructions 
to eliminate Mr Ngqulunga were to be executed, did you discuss the mode of execution?

CAPT MENTZ: No Chairman, we did not discuss it with Colonel Van Dyk.  As I say it was an 
instruction and I assumed it was an instruction from Head Office and it was something that had to be done.  
I did not ask why they did not arrest him instead or anything like that.  I just did it at that stage, because it 
was something that had to have been done.  It is a good few years ago and these things started affecting me 
very seriously in the last four to five years.	Nobody said he had to be kidnapped along the way and 
killed with an AK47, I did not, I mean those were the instructions, I did not ask why it had to be done.

SISI KHAMPEPE: My question was to merely ascertain whether you knew what kind of method would be 
used in eliminating Mr Ngqulunga?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, we did know.  As I said it was said that Botha and I had to overpower him with the 
assistance of Bellingham, we had to take him away and then Bellingham was to have shot him.
	As I also said I cannot remember specifically about Piet Botha shooting him, but it is something 
that surfaced recently.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You did expect some measure of violence?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Which would be a precursor to any elimination?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, that is correct.
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

SISI KHAMPEPE: 119

SISI KHAMPEPE: I have therefore some profound difficulties in comprehending how you could have, how 
you could not have known that Ngqulunga would be eliminated in the manner that he was.  I mean what 
was so shocking?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chairman, it is easy when it is said to you go and do a certain gruesome deed, but if I 
may use the expression, at the stage, at 99th stage, at the last minute when it is to happen, it is too late, you 
are at a point of no return, you function like a machine and when the deed has been done you start to think 
about what actually happened and as I say I did not physically vomit, but I was extremely nauseous in the 
kombi and my nerves were shattered.
	It is easy to say we are going to do this, but when you get there and while it is happening, while 
the deed is taking place or after it has happened the full impact of what you had done, strikes you and at 
that stage I thought I could deal with it, but I mean if I had to go out and do something like that at this 
stage, I wouldn't be able to.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ;	Can you explain to us the nature and the extent of your participation in the whole 
operation?   I mean you've explained that when he was dragged out of the car, you assaulted him.

CAPE MENTZ: As I said the operation was not planned by me, it was just said that Piet Botha 
and I had to drag him and Baker had to drag him out of the vehicle, overpower him and then put him in the 
back of the kombi on the floor.  We were to bring him under control so that he was unable to scream or 
resist in any way and then we were to drive away with him, because there was a long distance between 
there and Lehabele so we were to silence him basically by keeping his mouth closed and fastening his 
hands and feet so that he PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

SISI KHAMPEPE: 120

CAPT MENTZ: did not offer any resistance.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did any of you cut his tongue?

CAPT MENTZ: No Chairperson, not at all, not one of us.
NO FURTHER

<UNKNOWN>: S BY

SISI KHAMPEPE: .

<UNKNOWN>: S BY

JUDGE WILSON: If I can add to questions you've just asked.  You'd 
participated in numerous attacks and murders before then, hadn't you?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

JUDGE WILSON: Why did you suddenly get shocked by a murder?  You took part in the murder 
of eight people at KwaNdebele, nine people was it, yes?  You took part in that murder, didn't you?  Capt 
Hechter,  Joe Mamasela, Deon Gouws, Andre Oosthuizen.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Chairperson, I will give evidence about that later.  You will hear from my evidence 
that I was not physically involved in the shooting of people.  I cannot explain why one agrees - I cannot 
explain why one incident
affects you differently to others, but I was badly affected by this.  Perhaps my state of mind at the time was 
different to other times.
	I am not a psychologist or a medical doctor, so I cannot give an explanation for it.

JUDGE WILSON: No, but you were now doing something officially, properly, ordered to by your 
senior officers, where as previous occasions you had just gone off and joined Captain Hechter in these 
murderous attacks, hadn't you?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Captain you testified in your application on page  
55, that "we brought him under control by handling him roughly".
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 121

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chairperson, when we opened the door, I cannot say exactly who did what, we 
grabbed him around his neck, around his body, we shut his mouth, we hit him.  In the process trying to get 
him unconscious so that he did not put up as much of a fight, so he was physically assaulted, we had him 
around the neck, we dragged him, somebody had his feet and in the kombi, one person was to have stuffed 
something in his mouth and then sealed it and also tied his hands.  He was assaulted.

UNKNOWN: How many of you took part in this assault that led to him losing consciousness?

CAPT MENTZ: Three of us, myself, Bellingham and Piet Botha.

UNKNOWN: And for how long did the assault take place?