Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-10

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: It is possible I might have spoken to him about it, I don't remember doing it.

MR ROUSSOUW: At the time when you were waiting at the shooting range, what were you doing there the whole day?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I have no idea, I cannot remember what we did there the whole day bar me remembering that we had a braai.

MR ROUSSOUW: Mr Bosch said that you did nothing but wait.  Would you agree with that?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I honestly don't know.  I honestly don't know, I cannot remember what else happened there that day.

MR ROUSSOUW: Were there at the shooting range, apart from Mr Bosch, Mr Wasserman, Mr Taylor who apparently arrived at a later stage, and Mr McCarter and Mr Lembede, and of course Mr Bhila, were there any other people present that you can recall?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't remember if there were some of the askaris there or if there were other people present at that time.

MR ROUSSOUW: Is it possible that there might have been other people present there?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: There may have been other people present, yes.

MR ROUSSOUW: Would a discussion about a planned assassination take place in the presence of such people, would you involve askaris in such a plan?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: My assumption would be that it would be spoken about in private, to one side or in one of the vehicles or something, and not in front of them.

MR ROUSSOUW: Yes.  You would like to handle this operation on a need to know basis?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Correct.

MR ROUSSOUW: It is possible that as Mr Bosch testified, that such a discussion did not, or he can't recall that such a discussion took place at the shooting range?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: It is possible, because I don't remember a discussion like that either.

MR ROUSSOUW: Now, on the way, when you left there, on the way to the area where the assassination took place, was there any discussion in the kombi?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot remember any discussion going on in the kombi.

MR ROUSSOUW: You see Mr Bosch testified that you drove in silence?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot remember.

MR ROUSSOUW: Would you not agree that you would not, well, it is unlikely that you would sit in the company of a person, discussing how you are going to kill him?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I would say it is unlikely we would have done that, yes.

MR ROUSSOUW: Yes.  Now, when you got out of the vehicle and you moved towards the edge of the cliff, you said that - you were asked about whether Mr Bhila was made to sit down or lay down.  Am I correct in recalling your testimony that you can't remember whether he was made to sit down or lay down, but at the time when you shot him, he was laying down?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR ROUSSOUW: So you won't be able to dispute Mr Bosch's testimony that he was made to sit down initially?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, I can't.  I recall him laying down when I shot him.

MR ROUSSOUW: Can you remember a discussion between Mr McCarter and Mr Bosch afterwards, after the incident where the details and reasons for this operation, was furnished to Mr Bosch?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, I don't remember a discussion like that Mr Chairman.

MR ROUSSOUW: At the time when you were at the shooting range, can you recall anybody mentioning that to any of the people there, not only Mr Bosch, but to the other people you are saying might also have been there, mentioning to them that the person that is being held captive there, is an ANC terrorist?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I have no recollection of that.

MR ROUSSOUW: And then lastly, Mr Rosslee, you said that you can't give an indication as to whether Mr Bhila, at the time that he was kept at the shooting range, was handcuffed or whether he had foot shackles?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct, I cannot specifically remember, but taking the circumstances, I am sure he must have been secured in some way.

MR ROUSSOUW: So you won't be able to dispute the testimony of Mr Bosch that he was, he had foot shackles?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, I can't dispute that.

MR ROUSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROUSSOUW

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Thank you Mr Chairman, Van Schalkwyk for McCarter and others.
	Mr Rosslee, during the course of your evidence in chief, you referred extensively to Exhibit B, the statement you have made to Holmes, and my learned colleague has just put to you that this statement was made on the 12th of April 1996.
	Just to put it in context, was that before you actually applied for amnesty?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: The amnesty application was filed, if you will bear with me Mr Chairman, just thereafter if I am not mistaken, the next day, the 13th?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: December of 1996.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: 13th of December, sorry.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Did Holmes consult you on his own, or was there anyone else present at the time?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: As I remember, Brigadier Human was present, Captain Holmes and another Investigator.  But when the statement was being taken, if I remember correctly, it was just Captain Holmes.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Was the idea that you were to make a statement so that you could be used as a witness so to speak?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Well, that was what was told to me, with regards to the 204, yes.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Were you all along under the impression that you would have been a witness in a criminal matter?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Did the Investigator of the Attorney General's office, Holmes or anyone at any particular stage, advise you to apply for amnesty?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No one Mr Chairman.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And at the time that you made the amnesty application, did you have a copy of this particular statement, Exhibit B with you?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: None whatsoever, I only received this statement I think it was a week ago, when I was in consultation with senior counsel.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: As far as your recollection of the events are concerned, would it be correct to say that the only aide-memoire assistance you really have is this statement, Exhibit B and your application?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That would be correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: There are no notes that you have made, no entry in any pocket book, any register, nothing of that sort of course?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Nothing that I have.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: You have or it has been supplied on your behalf, three reports from clinical psychologists and psychiatrists, Exhibit C1 - C3.  I do not intend to go into detail with that, but may I just ask you have you at any particular point experienced loss of memory, either short term or long term, one would refer to it as memory gaps?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Blackouts, yes.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And do you experience in everyday life, that there are some of the things in the past, maybe the recent past or the distant past, that you cannot remember on any particular occasion?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I do have memory lapses about events, yes.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Incidentally at the time when you made the statement to Holmes and others, were you under treatment at that particular point in time?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I can't remember.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: You made it on the 12th of April 1996.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't recall, I don't think I was having treatment at that stage yet.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Now, if we may just deal then with two of my other clients, Mr Ngadi and Mr Mhieza, you have not mentioned either in Exhibit B or in your application or in your evidence here in chief or in cross-examination thus far, the presence of any person by the name of Aubrey Ngadi.  May I just ask you, did you know a person by the name of Aubrey Ngadi?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't recall his name.