Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-11

MR BOOYENS: In order to explain the incident or at least report the incident to him.  At that stage while Snyman was with or on his way to Goosen, what did the remaining three of you do?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: We stayed in the office.

MR BOOYENS: What, where was Beneke?  Was he still in the office or he had left it already?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: I cannot remember where Sergeant Beneke was at that stage.

MR BOOYENS: Did Snyman return?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour, he returned with Colonel Goosen.  Colonel Goosen attempted to communicate with him.

MR BOOYENS: With whom, with the deceased?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, with the deceased.  My apologies.  And the results were the same as I have indicated previously.

MR BOOYENS: Did Goosen have any comment on the fact and manner in which Mr Biko was chained to the gate?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: I do want to say, yes, he said that the man must stay standing like this in order to break down his resistance and to obtain his co-operation.

MR BOOYENS: What instructions did you then receive?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Myself and Major Snyman, who served in a different unit, were excused.  We were instructed to continue with our other activities and he was left in the care of Sergeant Niewoudt and them and as soon as the situation would change, we would be informed and then we had to resume the interrogation.

MR BOOYENS: Did you then leave the office?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Where did you go?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: I returned to my office on the fifth floor.

MR BOOYENS: And did you have anything to do with Mr Biko at any stage subsequently?  I know that you, while he was at the security, I mean while he was at the security police offices?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: No, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: So, you did not have anything to do with continued interrogation?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: No, we did not continue with any interrogation.

MR BOOYENS: And when did you next have anything to do with him?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: It was on the eighth, on the Wednesday.  You will note, your Honour, that I did not include this in my application.  This was an oversight.  When I was at the office in the afternoon on the eighth, Colonel Goosen informed me that the deceased was to be transferred to a Noordeinde prison for continued attention, medical attention and I was then present when he was transported by two Black members in a motor vehicle.

MR BOOYENS: Wait a moment, you are going too fast.  Where did you find Mr Biko at that time?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Later in the course of that afternoon in that office.

MR BOOYENS: Was this in the same office where you interrogated him?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: What was his state?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: At that time he was already chained again or cuffed again.  When I arrived there he was being accompanied out towards the lift down the passage.  He was slowly moving between the two Black members.

MR BOOYENS: Did he have foot chains on?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, if I can recall correctly.

MR BOOYENS: You say he was walking inbetween the two members.  Did he walk independently or did they support him or hold him or what?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: He walked on his own.  They were walking next to him on his sides, but without holding onto him physically.  Which could indicate that they were not supporting him.

MR BOOYENS: And then they went down the lift into a police vehicle?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: He then went to Noordeinde?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: We went to the Noordeinde Prison.

MR BOOYENS: What time of day was this?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: This would have been about half past eight in the evening.

MR BOOYENS: Why in the evening?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: This was under the instructions of Colonel Goosen so as not to draw attention to the transport of the deceased to the prison.

MR BOOYENS: Why did you not want to draw attention?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Because of his prominence and because information might have leaked that he was being transferred to the prison or people might have seen him move or walk very slowly.

MR BOOYENS: Did you accompany them to the prison?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: I rode in a different car, I did not drive with them.

MR BOOYENS: Upon arrival did you hand him over to the members of the prison service?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: I handed him to the members of the prison, Colonel Goosen and Colonel Fisher, the interpreter believes, was also present.

MR BOOYENS: Did you accompany him into the prison?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Only to the reception area, if I can recall correctly.  I did not move with them through into the cell.

MR BOOYENS: The reception would be at the entrance, at the gate?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: That is correct, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Did you see Mr Biko get out of the car or were you not present?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Your Honour, I held the door open for him.  I assisted him by the elbow.  He got out of the car and in a similar manner walked to the prison.

MR BOOYENS: Reception would be at the door.  You then turned around and left?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: We entered through the prison door, the reception area is on the inside of the prison.

MR BOOYENS: Who accompanied him?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Colonel Goosen and them then dealt with the prison authorities from then on.

MR BOOYENS: And the Black security branch members?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: I think they walked with him, they walked with him.

MR BOOYENS: So, they went into the prison with him?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you have anything to do with Mr Biko subsequent to that?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: On the Sunday morning of the 11th, I was phoned by Colonel Goosen who told me that Mr Biko would be discharged, that he would be discharged from the hospital section of the prison at the Noordeinde Prison and that I had to arrange that he would be collected.

MR BOOYENS: Were you present at his collection from Noordeinde Prison?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Yes, your Honour, myself and Sergeant Niewoudt as well as Lieutenant Wilken were present.  This is not mentioned in my application.

MR BOOYENS: On page seven, the second paragraph from the bottom of the page, midway through,
"... I and  ..."
... (intervention).

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Niewoudt.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, it should read that,
"... the current applicant, Detective-Sergeant Niewoudt and Sergeant Wilken went to Port Elizabeth Prison."
Could you tell us something about his state at that time?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Your Honour, it was clear to me that there had been some regression, some deterioration, he was no longer in the same state as he had been when, on the Wednesday evening, we handed him over at the prison.

MR BOOYENS: Could you explain this?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: The or on this occasion we had to support him by the elbows.  He was shuffling and it was clear from his speech that it was affected.  He appeared clumsy to me.

MR BOOYENS: If you say his speech was affected, what do you mean?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: When one spoke to him he mumbled.  I could not hear what he was saying.

MR BOOYENS: Did it appear to you that he would have been able to walk on his own on at that time or was it necessary to support him?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: I believe he might have been able to walk on his own, but we feared that he might fall and, as a result, we supported him.  I do not believe that he could have walked the entire distance on his own.

MR BOOYENS: You were then supporting him into the police vehicle down to or back to Walmer Police Station?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: At what time would this have been about?

DANIEL PETRUS SIEBERT: Your Honour, this was on the 11th.  It was during the course of the morning.  I would estimate that it might have been around ten o' clock, half past ten.