Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-23

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think what my colleague is saying is that by March 1994 it's common cause that there was an alliance between the ANC and the SACP, there was such an alliance.  Did you know that there was an alliance between the ANC and SACP and Cosatu in March 1994?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: Yes I did know that.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you know what was the purpose of the alliance?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: Although I cannot say for certain but I do know that they wanted to remove the opposite government.

CHAIRPERSON: So what is important for us to understand to be able to really have a clearer picture to the crux of your application is to understand the cause of the conflict between your organisation and the SACP, why you say you became enemies.  That has not been borne out by the evidence that you've tendered so far.  It is very, very critical and it is of fundamental importance for us to know why you became enemies.  What is it that you were fighting for as an alliance?  It's the SACP and the ANC organisation.

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: As I mentioned before, I knew and still know that the ANC and SACP were part of an alliance but in our township that was not so.  The SACP in our township used that name just for personal gain, not for gain of the organisation.  That was what we were fighting against.  We did not want a split in our organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you are saying they used the name SACP but were not in fact SACP members, is that what you are trying to suggest to us?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: Although I cannot say it with absolute certainty but some of them were Mr Gwala, even asked amongst them if there was a member of the SACP who was 17 or who was unemployed and as I knew there shouldn't have been any member of the SACP who was unemployed or was that young but I'm not aware if they had membership cards.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you regard this Amabumvu as the SACP as you understood the SACP within the broader alliance between the ANC, SACP and COSATU?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: As far as I could tell these Amabumvu at the township were not part or were not like the SACP that was fighting for the development and growth of our country.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you aware of any persons who were genuine SACP members within your area?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: Unfortunately no, there was no one that I knew.

CHAIRPERSON: You still haven't really explain in a manner that I can personally understand why there was this fighting between what you perceived to be Amabumvu or people who called themselves Amabumvu and you as members of the ANC, I still have not been able to grasp why there was a division, what is it that you were fighting for.  What I seem to be understanding and what I seem to be hearing from your evidence is that they started fighting, they started launching attacks on you as an organisation and then you retaliated.  Other than that was there any reason that made you to be divided as different organisations?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: I mentioned before that the one thing that really bothered us was that they attacked Mr Mkhize and they would attack other members of the ANC and we had thought that we were all members of one organisation.  I am not in a position to say what they wanted from us but I do know that at that time they'd even give us names.

CHAIRPERSON: For what purpose did they attack Mr Mkhize and the members of your community?  Why were such attacks launched by these Amabumvu against your members of Mr Mkhize?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: On enquiring from people was that they will say with Mkhize, he's involved in embezzlement of funds in the township and he is also involved with our mothers.  This is what people like Blade used to say because they wanted to desert him, they did not want to be the same organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose?  When you say they wanted to do that, do you want to say they wanted to depose Mr Mkhize, they wanted to remove him so that they can take over the political control of your area?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: Even though I cannot say it with certainty but from their actions I thought that was part of their campaign as well as to undermine the ANC because the ANC by that time was a well established organisation because sometimes you would meet Blade or you would see Blade in an IFP rank where I would not be able to go, he would be able to go there.  That was one of those things that led me to believe that they were trying to undermine and destabilise the ANC in the area.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes but you now mentioned that they wanted to get rid of Mr Mkhize because he embezzled money and ...(intervention)

MS MOODLEY: That's not what I recall.  He said ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Sorry, my note is "they say that Mkhize, there was an embezzlement of funds."

MS MOODLEY: They alleged these things.

ADV DE JAGER: Well leave me to complete my question and if you want to object you object then.

MS MOODLEY: Advocate de Jager, with all due respect I can hear you quite clearly, you seem to be screaming into my ears.  I would gladly give you the patience that you require but please give and treat me with the respect that I deserve as well.

ADV DE JAGER: And you'd better treat me with same respect and ...(intervention)

MS MOODLEY: No listen ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: And don't interrupt me while I'm asking questions.

MS MOODLEY: No, no, don't point your finger at me.

CHAIRPERSON: May I, may I please if you do care, please.

MS MOODLEY: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I apologise, Honourable Chairperson, I don't appreciate a colleague, a learned friend pointing his finger at me all the time, it is distasteful and it is unnecessary.

ADV DE JAGER: Would you - you told us that they wanted to get rid of Mr Mkhize because he embezzled funds, is that correct?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: I did not say they wanted to remove him, I said I was of the opinion that that was so.  I cannot say if that is what they wanted because I was not part of them.

ADV DE JAGER: And you were also of the opinion that they thought he did something with your mothers?  Is that correct?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: Those were rumours that you would hear from people in the street.  It is not something that I would call possible evidence.

ADV DE JAGER: But that were the rumours why they were against Mr Mkhize, is that correct?  Rumours going around?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: Yes I would agree with you.

ADV DE JAGER: And then you've told us previously that you and Mr Phewa, you wanted him, "there was a bad relationship between the two of us, either me or he would die".  What did you mean by that?  What was the cause of this bad relationship between the two of you?

HAPPY AUBREY MNGOMEZULU: I explained before that the situation between ourselves an Phewa was only good before the formation of Amabumvu.  After the formation of Amabumvu, it was not easy for me to approach him as an ex-colleague.  After they formed Amabumvu our relationship became very bad to such an extent that we could not even talk to them.  Even in that meeting when we were all there present, Mr Mngomezulu was present, there were many misunderstandings.  There was even a meeting called by Mr Msimande as well as another one called by Mr Gwala which ended in chaos.  By the time the meeting finished people were shooting one another.  That is why I have explained that the situation was very bad between us.

ADV DE JAGER: I understand the two groups now, but the personal relationship between you and Mr Phewa, because you said "I wanted him, there was a bad relation between the two of us".  Did you speak to each other, did you have a fall out one time or another?  What happened between the two of you?