Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-14

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I will get to that.  Then there is a witness by the name of Regina Isaacs whose statement appears at page 11 of Bundle D.   She also attended this Cape Youth Congress meeting, what she says in the fifth and sixth paragraphs of her statement is
"... the explosion occurred in the hall next to the foyer.   This hall was occupied by a few members of the Kewtown  Youth, prior to the explosion.  Their meeting ended at about 20H00.  The building was lit up at the time of the explosion, the gate to the premises as well as the front door was standing open.  There were cars in the parking area, as well as in the street."
	Do you dispute any of that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: The fact that there had been vehicles in the parking area, and this is the parking area, I do not know how many parking areas there are, but the one that I am referring to, I definitely dispute that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl, every single one of the people that the police took statements from, to the best of my recollection, each one says "at the time the bomb exploded, there were cars in the parking lot".  Can you think of every reason why any one of these people would have a reason to invent a story that there were cars in the parking lot at the time when the bomb exploded?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I can think of no reason.  I am just saying again, I had a specific parking lot that was pointed out to me, I observed this parking lot.  There were no vehicles in that specific parking lot.  I do not know if there might have been another parking lot, that they were referring to.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And before Mr Martini wants to correct me and say that not every witness deals with the question of whether there were cars in the parking lot, I am happy to concede that that might be so, but several of the witnesses who are asked to deal with that question, say that there were cars in the parking lot.
	Now, then there is the statement of a witness by the name of Wallace Stevens, that appears at page 14 of Bundle D.  Mr Stevens says that there was a meeting of the soccer club which had been planned to start at eight o'clock that night, but that because there were so few people, they decided to wait a while in the foyer, to see if more people were going to arrive.
	I assume you are not in a position to dispute that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Then, there is the statement of, in Bundle B, at page 233 of Terrence Coetzee, who also was at the hall to attend the meeting of the soccer club.  He says, paragraph 2 that
"... we held the meeting in the foyer of the centre, because the hall was locked."
	I assume you cannot dispute that the soccer club held a meeting in the foyer of the centre?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So, we have the members of the soccer club and CAYCO members who are in the building at the time when the bomb explodes, and you can't dispute that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You would also then have to concede that you wouldn't have known whether any of those people were in the hall where the limpet mine had been placed, at the time when the limpet mine exploded?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Could you please repeat your question?

MR KAHANOVITZ: I said you would have to concede that you would not have known whether any of the people who were attending the CAYCO or soccer club meetings, were in the hall where the limpet mine was placed, at the time when the limped mine was exploded?

MR MARTINI: Sorry Mr Chairperson, that is not a fair proposition to put to the witness, in view of the statement that Mr Kahanovitz has just read, 233, it says "the hall was locked".  We are assuming the hall was this very hall where the bomb was placed?  It doesn't tie in with the evidence that is led, if it is evidence at all.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Chairman, Mr Martini, there is absolutely no basis to what he is saying.  I am not asking Mr van Zyl what someone who was in the hall might or might not have known, I am asking what Mr van Zyl knew, sitting outside the building, in a car.

MR MARTINI: Sorry Mr Chairperson, this, if it is evidence, has been led, to now attempt to obtain a concession which on the statement, that concession cannot be made.  You are saying "you have to concede that you wouldn't have known if there were people in the hall", but on the very statement of Coetzee, it says "the hall was closed".  If the hall was closed, there were no people in the hall?
	How can that be a fair question to put to the witness, that you have to then concede to that, when on the statement he relies on, he says the hall was closed.  That is why they had the meeting in the foyer.

CHAIRPERSON: But then he can answer the question, I don't see that it is unfair.  If he wants to dispute what is being put by Mr Kahanovitz, he can dispute it.

MR MARTINI: As Mr Chairperson pleases.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl, please answer the question.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I will put it to you in the following way.  The statement that you are making, I cannot reject, but I just want to say to you again that I was satisfied that at that stage, the only people who according to my information, would have been at that hall on that specific evening, were children who attended a karate club function, previously in the evening and then the managing members of the Kewtown Youth Movement.
	After they had left the hall and they had driven off, I was satisfied in my conscience that there were no people in the hall.  But the statement that you are making, I cannot deny.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You would also then have to agree with me that it was purely fortuitous that no one was killed?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I think we had made the necessary arrangements to ensure that no one would be injured or killed in the explosion, and as I said, there is always a risk attached to something like this.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl, even on your own version, your version relies on you saying
"... that Mr Hardien came to tell me that there was no one in the hall, therefore  I came to the conclusion that it was now safe to explode the bomb."
	Correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: And my own observations that I had done.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And then you would say "well, the parking lot was empty"?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Those two factors?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But you cannot dispute that in truth and in fact, when the bomb exploded, there were two sets of people, having two separate meetings in the hall, correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It logically follows that if a bomb was exploded in that building, at that time, and no one was injured or killed - sorry let me rephrase, it logically follows that if no one was killed during those explosions, it was purely fortuitous, it was a stroke of good luck?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Amongst others.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I want you to read into the record, what the Police bomb export say.  If you can go to page 246 of Bundle B.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if you can get to the paragraphs, we do not have to have all the introductions, do we, we can see that he is an expert, etc.

MR KAHANOVITZ: All right.

CHAIRPERSON: Just to save some time, Mr Kahanovitz?

MR KAHANOVITZ: If you can, now, let's start with paragraph 4.   Sgt Steenkamp says that at 20H50 on 31-08-1989 he arrived at a bomb location at the Early Learning Centre in Athlone.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: He was called there, that is what he says.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Excuse me?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: He says he was called there, he did not say that he arrived there at that time.