Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1999-10-21

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: It was Captain Benzine and Bellinghan, the head of the askaris from Pretoria.

MR WILLIAMS: And were the two of them in overall command of this particular operation?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: What were the terms of the briefing at Milnerton police station?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: There was a meeting and Bongani was about to be apprehended and I was told to get into the car and David and Yengeni would be in the front, occupy the front seats and we would go to Athlone.

MR WILLIAMS: But what exactly was the mission of this entire operation?  Was it to arrest Mr Bongani Jonas, or was it to kill him, or to shoot him, or to injure him?  What exactly was the mission of this operation?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: The mission was to apprehend him, but I cannot say for sure that he was going to be killed, because the black people would be taken and would be sent to places.  You wouldn't know anything about the real thing because they couldn't trust even myself.

MR WILLIAMS: No, but I'm talking about what was said at this briefing session at Milnerton police station, if there were any plans that he should be shot, or he should be injured or killed, then surely those were mentioned there at the briefing session where you were present then, you heard those things.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Whenever people are going for an operation a lot of things are mentioned, if a person would be apprehended and be shot, that depends on the people who'd be doing that job because that would be determined by the conditions that they later encounter.

MR WILLIAMS: Now, how were you - how exactly were you gong to execute this order, or this brief that you had?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: What order?  What kind of an order?

MR WILLIAMS: What was the order that you were given when you met at Milnerton police station?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: It was to apprehend Bongani Jonas.

MR WILLIAMS: Now my question is, how exactly were you going to effect that?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: As I've already explained, there were askaris there to apprehend Jonas, but I don't know how was that going to be executed.

MR WILLIAMS: But wasn't that discussed at Milnerton police station?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: It was said they were going to apprehend Bongani Jonas.

MR WILLIAMS: At the time of the incident, were you aware of the existence of Vlakplaas?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, I knew.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you at that stage know how Vlakplaas operated?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: No, I just knew that there were askaris at Vlakplaas and whenever they are needed in Cape Town, they would just come.  We wouldn't be told, we'd just see them in Cape Town.

MR WILLIAMS: Now why was the assistance of Valkplaas people called in for this particular operation, when you had such a lot of able policemen and women in Cape Town to effect a simple arrest?  Why call in the assistance of Valkplaas?  What was the motive behind that?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: The motive was to get hold of Bongani's cell, it was here in Cape Town.  We were not trained as MK soldiers were, we were just ordinary policemen, we were just used as helpers.   That was not our job to apprehend people.

MR WILLIAMS: No, but surely the Security Police weren't ordinary policemen, they were a cut above the rest, they had particular duties.  They were specifically involved in so-called political offences at the time.  Surely they had the expertise to effect a simple arrest?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Are you talking about the black officers?

MR WILLIAMS: I'm talking about the officers generally who were stationed at the Security Branch.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, they were able to arrest, but askaris were coming from somewhere else and they knew people, I didn't even know how Mr Yengeni looked like and I didn't even know Bongani, so they knew one another, that is why they were called to assist, to point out these people, Bongani and Yengeni.

MR WILLIAMS: No, but you see at the stage when you met at Milnerton police station, you already had Mr Yengeni.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: So there was no need for the askaris to identify him.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: The askaris were there for this particular cell.  This cell of Mr Bongani and Mr Yengeni was so big and they were there to apprehend those people belonging to that cell because they knew one another and even the askaris could be able to identify them, that is why they were called, for help.

MR WILLIAMS: Now, did you know that these askaris and Vlakplaas in general, were involved in numerous killings?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: ;   I heard that later because that was the information that wouldn't be revealed to us.  I just got that information later and the way they used to behave or act when they were in Cape Town.

MR WILLIAMS: How can you only hear that later, you were part of a unit that was tasked with specific tasks.  It was an elite unit, so why wouldn't these things, why didn't it come to your attention?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: I knew that in Cape Town the people were coming on specific days, or specific months or if there is a certain operation like this one of apprehending Bongani and Yengeni, some of the things were done privately.  Yes, I knew that they were involved in some atrocities.

MR WILLIAMS: Now, did you know that at that stage, at the date of the incident?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: ;   Will you please repeat your question, Sir?

MR WILLIAMS: You said that you know that they were involved in atrocities.  My question is, at the stage of or at the date of this incident, was that knowledge available to you then?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Now if you say atrocities, are you talking about tortures, or are you talking about murders, or is that the general term for tortures and murders?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: The askaris, their duties were not to torture, they were killers.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay and you knew that at the date of this incident?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, I knew that very well.

MR WILLIAMS: At the date of the incident, did you foresee the possibility that Mr Jonas could be killed, bearing in mind that there are now askaris that's also part of your group, that's now going for Mr Jonas?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that was possible.  I could foresee that that was possible.

MR WILLIAMS: Now was that discussed also, you know, in the group?  Did people maybe joke about it, or you know maybe say:  "We're going to get this guy" or "We're going to shoot him" or "We're going to kill this guy", you know?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: As I've already explained that during - if the askaris are present, they knew that they were powerful and they were experts in murders, so that was not to be discussed, there was no need to discuss that.

MR WILLIAMS: There wasn't a need to discuss that.  You also worked a lot, I assume, with Mr Benzine and Mr Barnard, is that correct?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: No, I never worked with Barnard.  Yes, I did work with Benzine, but not Barnard.

MR WILLIAMS: And did you also know some of the modus operandi of Mr Benzine?  I'm specifically referring to him  being known or being accused of torturing people.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: ;   Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Then I'm sure you also foresaw the possibility that if Mr Jonas was captured, that he would definitely be tortured by these men, not so?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: ;   Now at what time was Mr Yengeni's meeting supposed to take place with Mr Jonas?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: It was going to take place at 7 o'clock in the evening.

MR WILLIAMS: And at what time did the police proceed to the area where the meeting place was to be held?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: I think myself and Mr Yengeni and David, the askari, we left at about quarter past Six from Milnerton.