Amnesty Hearings — White River — 2000-05-04

MR LUBBE: So the next incident Mr Seemise, is related to on page 141 - I'm sorry, Mr Chairperson, it is in fact on 136, it follows on 136, towards the bottom.  	Second attack, where according to the evidence of Mr Hlongwane, the Black Cats were split into five groups and also received instructions to attack various houses.  Can you tell the Committee what you know about this incident?
MR SEEMISE
"If I recall correctly this refers to the second incident that took place in Davel.  It was alleged that Philani's shack had been burnt by ANC members in Davula.  This information was conveyed to me by Sugar, and that the instruction had been issued to attack those people.
		We were picked up by Chris' bakkie.  There was Papa, Stiga, Jomo, Sparks, Obed and others whose names I cannot recall.  We then proceeded to Davula.  On our arrival we alighted from the vehicle before we reached the township and proceeded on foot.  
		We went to Mr Mkhonza's house and we found him with Dingaan and others whose names I cannot recall.  There were about six of them in the house.  That is where we were put into different groups, and there were five groups in all.  I was supposed to join a group but for the reason that I did not know the area well, so the group that I would have led, it was then mixed into other groups and I ended in Mandla Maluleke's group.
		Two groups would launch the attacks.  We left, armed with petrol bombs as well as other weapons.  Group leaders were armed with firearms.  My leader, Mandla Maluleke had a 36mm revolver.  We proceeded towards the first house where we attacked.  It was a four-bedroomed home.  We broke the windows, threw petrol bombs through the windows and we thereafter left and proceeded towards the second house.  That was a shack.  We broke the windows there and threw petrol bombs inside.  Three children came running out of the house.  We chased them but could not catch up with them.  Mandla was shooting at the people we were chasing, but I do not know whether any of them were injured.
		When all the groups returned - we had been ordered to return within ten minutes, because Mr Mkhonza had consulted with the police and informed them that we would be on this mission, so they would not have to ...(indistinct) us.  There was a house that was attacked.  That house is Mr Mkhonza's neighbour which is on the same street.
		When we arrived we found that the other groups were already at that house and we learnt that when they threw the petrol bombs inside the house, the occupants of the house had tried to put out the fires.  Mandla Maluleke had then kicked the door open and we went inside.  One boy came out running from that house.  He was running towards the toilet and Sugar shot at him.  There was also an elderly lady whom we assaulted with pangas and grass cutters.  There was also another boy who tried to flee, but we caught up with him and assaulted him. 
		We had to go back because we were running out of time, therefore we returned to Mr Mkhonza's home.  Some of us returned to Ermelo on the same night and some remained in Davula to safeguard in case ANC members come to attack the house. 
		We later learnt that some people had been injured in that attack.  That I learnt when I was already in Ermelo."

MR LUBBE: You would not know the name of the people that died in this attack, but according to the evidence of Mr Hlongwane, the boy that was killed is named Matthew Mtweni and there is also a mother that was killed in the house.  Were you involved personally in the deaths of any of these two people?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: I was involved, but I cannot remember or know their names, because I didn't know the people from Davula.

MR LUBBE: Now the last instance, Mr Seemise, I'm referring you to page 153, towards the top, and that is:  The Possession of 50 Rounds of Ammunition and a 303 Rifle.  Now here Mr Hlongwane deals with certain ammunition and weapons which was received from KwaZulu Natal, and he says that yourself and him obtained a box of 50 rounds of ammunition and a 303, just before you went back to Ermelo.  Do you recall this incident?  And from whom did you receive this ammunition and the firearm?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes, I do remember.

MR LUBBE: Can you briefly explain the background to this incident?
MR SEEMISE
"Mr Hlongwane told us that in order for him to kill ANC leadership he will need a rifle.  He was telling and Mxobogazi.  He also mentioned that he knows where in KwaZulu Natal we can obtain this.  Mxobogazi arranged for us to go there.  I think we left on a Friday.  We went to KwaZulu Natal, to a place called Inyoni.  We arrived in a certain house where Mr Hlongwane's girlfriend was staying.
		On the following day we went to see someone by the name of Kaili Hlembatha.  He then told us that he couldn't give us an AK47, but he would be able to assist us by giving us a 303.  He didn't give this to us on the same day.  We went back to the place or the house where we arrived.
		The following day we went back to him, he gave us a 303 and a box of ammunition.  When we left there we went straight to Ermelo."

MR LUBBE: Yes, and what happened to the ammunition and the 303?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: The 303, that's the one we used to hunt down the ANC members.

MR LUBBE: I just want to put on record, Mr Seemise, there's certain other incidents in which you were involved prior to 1991, in fact during 1989 and 1990, and which at this point in time do not serve in front of the Committee, and for which you also intend to apply for amnesty, is that correct?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes, that's correct.

MR LUBBE: Yes.  Would you say that all your actions as has been described in your evidence this morning were performed during your association and affiliation with the IFP and/or the Black Cats, in opposition to the ANC more particularly?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes, that's correct.

MR LUBBE: And you also subjectively bona fide believed that what you did was in support of the IFP and the Black Cats.

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes, that's correct.

MR LUBBE: And can you tell the Committee, under oath, that as far as these incidents which you have testified about, that you have disclosed all relevant facts for the Committee to decide upon?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Would you please repeat your question.

MR LUBBE: Would you say that in respect of the incidents that you testified about, you fully disclosed all relevant facts?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes, that's correct.

MR LUBBE: Do you know any of the victims of any of the incidents in which you were involved and who may be present here today in this hall?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes, I've seen some of them.

MR LUBBE: And can you tell the Committee today what your attitude is towards what you've done in the past, specifically in relation to what you have testified?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Today I am feeling a great remorse about my actions, but at the time I believed that I was fighting to liberate ourselves in South Africa.  Today I can say it was not proper and it was not a good thing to do, but I don't have the powers to heal those wounds, but if I had the powers I would do my best.  All I can say that I am requesting forgiveness from the families and from the people who had suffered through my actions.  At the time I was forced by circumstances.  I apologise deeply.

MR LUBBE: Do you accept the new political dispensation that came about in 1994 in South Africa?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes, I do, because it is now clear where the truth lies.

MR LUBBE: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LUBBE

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, Mr Lubbe.  We'll adjourn and reconvene at 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

JOSIAS SEEMISE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Lubbe, you've concluded your evidence-in-chief, have you.

MR LUBBE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Just for the sake of convenience we'll go around that way.  Mr van der Heyde, do you have any questions?