Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-06

MR MCBRIDE: Width of a passage, ja.  It's next door, it's in the same Parade Hotel building.

MR RICHARD: So they're adjoining, for all purposes.

MR MCBRIDE: I'm sorry?

MR RICHARD: So the two establishments are adjoin each other.

MR MCBRIDE: They're in the same building.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now at that time, I don't think you'll contradict me if I say to you as a proposition, you knew that the Marine Parade was a busy entertainment area on a Saturday night, frequented by many people.

MR MCBRIDE: No, I won't contradict you on that. - including Security Force personnel.

MR RICHARD: Thank you for that, I had said many people.

MR MCBRIDE: And I included Security Force personnel.

MR RICHARD: I'm not at this stage getting into the debate, but we'll go there.  When you say the Marine Parade was frequented by Security personnel ...(intervention)

MR MCBRIDE: Could you just repeat that question 'cause I don't remember saying that specifically.

MR RICHARD: I said you knew that the Marine Parade was a busy entertainment area, frequented by many people on a Saturday night.  I didn't refer specifically to Magoo's or the Parade Hotel or Why Not.

MR MCBRIDE: Thanks for that.  Yes, that's correct.

MR RICHARD: And then you added on "frequented by Security personnel" as well.

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, yes.

MR RICHARD: Then we're not arguing with each other.  Now in your evidence and in your documents you used the word "Security personnel" and "collaborator", what would you consider Security personnel to include? - the phrase.

MR MCBRIDE: Security personnel.  I think it's been alluded to on numerous occasions, all members of the Security Forces in or out of uniform, on duty or off duty.  That's the instruction that was given to me.

MR RICHARD: Are you aware of what Citizen Force vs Permanent Force meant at that time?

MR MCBRIDE: There was no distinction made to me in giving me the instruction about Citizen Force.

MR RICHARD: So when we look at it that way, if you looked at an equally balanced crowd of males and females of a hundred and 50% were male and under 35, who would be Security personnel?

MR MCBRIDE: Well that's not the way I looked at it.  From what I know and from what I've personally witnessed, was that we were looking at where the Security Force personnel go to, and in particular we looked at people who were living at CR Swart.  We didn't look at who was in the bar.

MR RICHARD: You didn't look at who was in the bar.

MR MCBRIDE: No, I couldn't get to see in the bar.

MR RICHARD: Now in Exhibit C you describe at page 18, approximately line 12
"I personally verified that policemen went into the place."
And the question -
"Well, did you go there personally to the bar?
		"Yes, I went personally to the bar beforehand to see that there were policemen there and so on."
And then you carry on to say -
"I went personally to the bar and a comment I heard at the door was, I was not allowed to go in when someone was leaving 'may the force be with you'"
Is that what you heard?

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, yes.

MR RICHARD: Now what did that mean to you?

MR MCBRIDE: Well it meant to me that there were police there.  I think I'd heard that statement before by police being used.  My perception then was that was the way police great each other, there's comments about seeing movies and stuff.  I didn't see that movie, I heard a statement and I took that to mean there were police there.  I for example never greeted anyone and said "May the force be with you".

MR RICHARD: Did you ever see the movie Star Wars?

MR MCBRIDE: If you continue down with the evidence you're going now, you'll see there I didn't see the movie and I said so.

MR RICHARD: Because we now have you in a situation that you hear a comment, and I don't think you seriously dispute that the phrase "May the force be with you" comes from that movie ...(intervention)

MR MCBRIDE: I'm not in a position to dispute it, it's there in the movie, they say it in the movie.  That is fine, I didn't see the movie.

MR RICHARD: You don't get into the pub for whatever reason ...(intervention)

MR MCBRIDE: Because it was full so they said.

MR RICHARD: And so that means indeed it's true to say that as a matter of fact you had no idea who was in the pub.

MR MCBRIDE: Well that could be your perception, my perception was that police go there because I heard that comment and I associated it with the police.

MR RICHARD: Now we've spoken before of the Allan Taylor residence and you've said it was an active student meeting place where you had heard something about the place being a venue where policemen or Security personnel, as the case might be, congregate.  What in fact did you hear there?

MR MCBRIDE: I can't remember the exact words, the impression was gained over a long period.

MR RICHARD: Was it an impression gained from general conversation?

MR MCBRIDE: Yes.  And in connection with where can we find these people to attack them.

MR RICHARD: Now when you heard that information, did you make any effort whatsoever to ascertain why whoever was saying it had that opinion?

MR MCBRIDE: I can't remember.  Remember this is about '84 or '85, I can't remember.

MR RICHARD: During the period '84 or '85 you weren't yet a member of Special Operations.

MR MCBRIDE: But I was a patriot and regarded myself as such, and I was already in the process of forming my own combat unit, in line with the ANC's instructions.

MR RICHARD: Now do you remember ...(intervention)

MR MCBRIDE: And policemen were getting killed all over the country, especially in the townships.

MR RICHARD: How many times did you drive past that particular hotel?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying with the purpose of reconnoitring?

MR MCBRIDE: Drive past?  Are you saying drive past?

MR RICHARD: Drive past, walk past.

MR MCBRIDE: Many times, many, many times.  In fact, even on one occasion I was on a social outing, I can't remember who I was with, and I walked past there thinking about it as a target.  So it was very much in my mind as a target, even on social occasions.

MR RICHARD: Now when you looked at the pub from the outside, could you see in?

MR MCBRIDE: No, I could not see in.

MR RICHARD: Now you said, and I'll find the reference in a moment, that you followed people from the CR Swart barracks to the area on a number of occasions, is that correct?

MR MCBRIDE: Two occasions, with Gordon Webster.

MR RICHARD: Now ...(intervention)

ADV PRIOR: I see the reference is at page 21, Exhibit C.

MR RICHARD: Now on the first occasion were you lucky?

MR MCBRIDE: I don't know what you mean by "lucky.

MR RICHARD: Did you - well you followed somebody, did you - I'm looking at page 11.  On occasion you say
"... but on the second occasion we were lucky"
(No, I've said page 20).

CHAIRPERSON: You said you're looking at page 20?

ADV PRIOR: Sorry, I've got page 21 at that reference.

MR RICHARD: Yes, 21 April, page 20, indexed 196.

CHAIRPERSON: I've noticed, Mr Richard, that Judge Pillay sitting next to me, his page numbers, I don't know why, on his Exhibit C are different to mine.  So there might be a bit of confusion.  So if you could just identify the first few words of the paragraph.

JUDGE PILLAY: Perhaps there something at least we've got in common, Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Right.  We start at the top of the page
"There is at CR Swart Square ..."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I've got it.
MR RICHARD
"On two occasions we followed people in the night"
Now my question was, on the first occasion what happened?

MR MCBRIDE: Just to indicate to you, that was the same night, that was on the same night together with Gordon.  It wasn't two separate nights, it was one night.

MR RICHARD: Now on the first expedition that night you followed a group of policemen, where did they go?