Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ADV SIGODI: What worries me is the fact that you say that you had specific targets as the AWB.  Your main target was the ANC, SACP Alliance.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: So this whole operation - it was not a racist attack, it was targeted specifically at ANC and SACP.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No it was not a racist attack otherwise all the other vehicles that were stopped, we had more opportunity to kill more of these people.

ADV SIGODI: Was that the policy of the AWB not to be racist but to target the ANC specifically?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No it's not the policy of the AWB to be racist but to be pure.

ADV SIGODI: Now what I want to know, you said you had this - what bothers me is the cyanide that was going to be put in the water that was going to be that was going to be the water that was meant for drinking by the people in Soweto, the one that was found in your possession as you were arrested.  If you had had the chance to put the cyanide in the people in Soweto's drinking water - how would you have distinguished between ANC and other political parties.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: At that stage we did not have the instruction to that but the instruction was to obtain cyanide.  There was no instruction that we should indeed put cyanide in the water of Soweto, it was just a recommendation.

ADV SIGODI: It was a recommendation, but what was the policy of the AWB?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: There was no policy to that at that stage, it was just an instruction that I should obtain cyanide.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not tell us the purpose of the cyanide?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes I told you what happened to the cyanide, the quantity that I had was not enough, I had to find more and that is why there was no instruction to what to do with it.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the purpose of the cyanide?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: General Oelofse suggested that I obtain the cyanide for reasons that we put it in the drinking water of the Soweto people so that it is distributed in the water and the people drink it.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what she was asking you that by contemplating putting it into water, drinking water for the people of Soweto is the suggestion that - isn't this an indication of racism?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No, we were not racist, this deed would have been an act of chaos, mass chaos, but as I said I did not receive the instruction from General Oelofse to do such I just received the instruction to obtain the cyanide.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying you don't know what sort of people lived in Soweto?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I believe all sorts of people, all races.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's take it further.  If you are not racist why did you then decide to stop only vehicles in which the passengers were black.  Don't you know that many members of the ANC were white?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: At that stage very few white persons were not prepared to say that they were members of the ANC.  That was established at the meeting at Randfontein where there were many white persons and in the top structures of the City Council, I asked them how many of them were ANC members and all of the answered in the negative so that was clear to me that in our area there were no white ANC persons in our area and at the end we found out that that was a lie.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you think that a white member of the ANC being stopped there, what made you think that he would shy away from admitting that he was a member of the ANC?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I don't understand the question clearly.

CHAIRPERSON: What made you think that a white member of the ANC, if he had come across the road, you had stopped him and at the roadblock, what made you think that he would not have admitted that he was a member of the ANC?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Nothing pointed this to me that is why I made a point of just pulling over black persons.

CHAIRPERSON: You were told, if that is the order you were given, you were told that your targets should be members of the ANC SACP Alliance?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But then what you then tell us is that once you reached the roadblock, you pointed the roadblock, you decided not just to stop the vehicles of members of the ANC SACP Alliance but black members of the ANC SACP Alliance?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct Mr Chairperson, the fact that it was easier for us to identify or to pull over black people and to intimidate them and to use that method to find out which party they belonged to and white persons, there were not many of them and in the Ventersdorp area would not have belonged to the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not want to intimidate white members of the ANC?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: To no other person, I would only intimidation to ANC SACP Alliance persons.

ADV SIGODI: The other thing that's of concern is why was it necessary to destroy all evidence, to take away the shells, burn the car, shave the head and remove the beard if you were so sure of what you were doing?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It was important that we were not known immediately because as I understood it the revolution would continue and we would be utilised in other operations and we could not be used if we were apprehended immediately.  We wanted to convey the message that it was indeed AWB members but we did not want them to know that it was from our area.

ADV SIGODI: But you had already been seen by other cars at the roadblock.  You made yourselves conspicuous at the roadblock, it was clear to any person that the roadblock was manned by AWB people?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Any person who passed there would not recognise us immediately as AWB persons because if you stand next to us then you would see the sign but if you were just passing we looked like ordinary police persons.

CHAIRPERSON: She's referring also to the vehicles which you had already stopped, questioning the people and you let them go, surely those people had already - before they left - they had already noticed that you were AWB members?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That was indeed so, it was an advantage to us that people had stopped there and continued on their way and so the message would be conveyed that there would be roadblocks by the AWB to ensure that no weapons and ammunition and ANC people passed through there.

CHAIRPERSON: But those very same people would be the people to tell the police the following day.  Once they are told that four, six, eight bodies were found at the roadblock, those very same people would be the people to go to the police and say "well, listen we were there that same night, we were stopped by people, by AWB members."

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: So she's asking you if - what's the purpose of picking up cartridges if you had already been seen anyway and noticed by those other people that you let go?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: We were seen as the members of the AWB, we were not identified in our person, we could only be identified as - individually if we were apprehended.

CHAIRPERSON: If the police found the cartridges, would the cartridges have identified you as individuals?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes it could have identified us.

ADV SIGODI: My last question - I'm perturbed by the fact that there was this order to cut off an ear and you said that in your evidence you didn't find this funny because this had been done several times in the border.  I would just like to understand why - I mean why would anybody want to cut off somebody's ear?