Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-22

MR PRINSLOO: Honourable Chairperson, the following witness is Mr Meiring.

CAREL HENDRICKS MEIRING: (sworn states)

MR PRINSLOO: As it pleases the Chair.
	Mr Meiring, what is your age?

MR MEIRING: I am 33 years old.

MR PRINSLOO: Is it correct that you are the applicant in this matter which is connect with the charges to which you were found guilty in the Supreme Court by the Honourable Judge Marais?

MR MEIRING: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Is it correct that in this specific matter you were sentenced to death?

MR MEIRING: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: On several charges?

MR MEIRING: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Is it correct that your sentence was amended after the Constitutional Court found that the death sentence was no longer constitutional?

MR MEIRING: That's correct, the sentence was amended to life sentence.

MR PRINSLOO: And when was this sentence changed to life imprisonment?

MR MEIRING: I cannot remember the specific date but it was about 3 weeks ago.

MR PRINSLOO: With Judge Marais?

MR MEIRING: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Meiring, did you undergo military training?

MR MEIRING: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Just for the record, his application appears on page 68, from that page to page 84 and then 117 to 126.
	And where did you undergo military training?

MR MEIRING: In 1983 I was called up to Driesaai in Potchefstroom and after that I underwent selection for the officer's course in Oudtshoorn then I also did duty at the parachute battalion.

MR PRINSLOO: Is it correct that you performed six years worth of service in the Permanent Force?

MR MEIRING: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And during that time, did you ever perform border duty?

MR MEIRING: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: During your military training and your service in the Army, was it pointed out who was the enemy at that point?

MR MEIRING: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Who was the enemy?

MR MEIRING: It was said to us that it was the ANC/SACP Alliance.

MR PRINSLOO: After you left the Army, did you joint the AWB?

MR MEIRING: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And you joined the AWB in September 1993?

MR MEIRING: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Which training did you receive in the AWB?

MR MEIRING: I myself did not receive much training in the AWB apart from the theory.  I was the training officer who presented the training to the members.

MR PRINSLOO: What experience did you have in order to present such training to the AWB members?

MR MEIRING: I had been an instructor for approximately five years where I presented training to various troops, for example drilling, shooting, techniques of attack.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you also trained in shooting?

MR MEIRING: Yes, that's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: The training which you provided for other members of the AWB, what did that involve?

MR MEIRING: We did drilling for discipline, shooting for women and children as well as members who could not handle firearms who also did techniques of attack, movement and soforth.

MR PRINSLOO: How did you regard the AWB, as a military organisation or a non-military organisation, what was your view?

MR MEIRING: I provided training for them so I regarded them as a para-military organisation.

MR PRINSLOO: And the training which you presented, was it intensive by nature?

MR MEIRING: Yes, it was very intensive.

MR PRINSLOO: What was the objective of the military training which you provided?

MR MEIRING: It was necessary for the struggle which lay ahead.

MR PRINSLOO: At that point in 1993, when you joined the AWB, what was your reason for joining?

MR MEIRING: Because I believed in the ideology of the AWB, that we could obtain our own Volkstaat, have our own religion, training, education and soforth.

MR PRINSLOO: Thus the AWB was in favour of an ...[indistinct] government?

MR MEIRING: No, they were not in favour of it.

MR PRINSLOO: What was their view?

MR MEIRING: That we would wage war if this should happen, we wouldn't simply hand over the country to them.

MR PRINSLOO: Towards the end of 1993 there had already been planning for an election which would be held in 1994?

MR MEIRING: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And did the AWB approve of that election or not?  What was their attitude?

MR MEIRING: They disapproved of it completely.  They maintained that we ...[END OF TAPE]

MR PRINSLOO: ... that point with regard to the training of the AWB and so forth what happened?

MR MEIRING: It was announced from the platform that if we did not have weapons we have to steal weapons and that we would have to arm ourselves for the imminent revolution.

MR PRINSLOO: And what did you understand by that? Would it be a peaceful process? Would the weapons be used or not?

MR MEIRING: Well if we had to steal weapons it was an offence already so I assume that it could not have been a peaceful story.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you believe that the AWB would have used violence or negotiations or what?

MR MEIRING: It appeared to me as if they would use violence to further their ends.

MR PRINSLOO: On the 12th of December 1993. Let me put it to you this way. You resided in Randfontein area, is that correct?

MR MEIRING: Krugersdorp.

MR PRINSLOO: Under whose command were you in the AWB?

MR MEIRING: Under the command of Commandant Martin and Phil Kloppers.

MR PRINSLOO: Martin is the previous applicant?

MR MEIRING: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And Chief Commandant Kloppers is the first applicant seated over there?

MR MEIRING: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And who was the Commander in Chief in your area?

MR MEIRING: That was General Jappie Oelofse.

MR PRINSLOO: And what was your rank at that point?

MR MEIRING: I was a field cornet in the AWB.

MR PRINSLOO: On the 12th of December 1993 you received a message to meet at a certain place?

MR MEIRING: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Who sent the message?

MR MEIRING: I received the message from my wife because I was taking an afternoon nap on that Sunday. She herself received the message from Martin's wife.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you have to go in uniform or in civilian clothes?

MR MEIRING: The instruction was to wear camouflaged clothing and to be armed.

MR PRINSLOO: From the military or what?

MR MEIRING: From the AWB.

MR PRINSLOO: And that camouflaged dress from the AWB, could that be distinguished as AWB clothing?

MR MEIRING: Yes, symbols were attached to the shoulders which would distinguish one as an AWB member.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you have to go armed?

MR MEIRING: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Which arms did you take with you?

MR MEIRING: I took a 9 millimetre pistol.

MR PRINSLOO: Your own pistol?

MR MEIRING: It was a pistol from work but I had permission to take it with me.

MR PRINSLOO: Where did you go then?

MR MEIRING: We went to Uncle Harry's Roadside cafe.

MR PRINSLOO: At Uncle Harry's when you arrived there, were other members present?

MR MEIRING: Myself and Peter Matthews arrived first and after that the other members arrived until we were all there.

MR PRINSLOO: The other members of those co-applicants who appear before the Committee today?

MR MEIRING: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Who was in command there at that point?

MR MEIRING: Commandant Deon Martin was in command before Phil Kloppers arrived.

MR PRINSLOO: And with the arrival of Commandant Kloppers did you just stand around there sitting in the cafe or what did you do?

MR MEIRING: We just stood around.

MR PRINSLOO: Was there any parade that was held after that?

MR MEIRING: No.

MR PRINSLOO: Was no parade held when Kloppers arrived?

MR MEIRING: Yes, when he arrived Deon Martin brought us to attention and he saluted Chief Commando Kloppers after which Kloppers addressed us.

MR PRINSLOO: And what did Kloppers say to you?