Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-06

MR RICHARD: Now we go back to April of year '86.  How often did you indeed go on reconnoitring exercises to examine what was feasible and unfeasible around the Marine Parade, whether it be Natal Command or elsewhere?

MR MCBRIDE: We did reconnaissance every day, 24 hours a day on all aspects.  Specifically how much time was spent on Natal Command, I cannot say, but quite a lot.  24 hours, if we rode in the bus and we saw transformers somewhere we'd look at each other with our eyes and see it as a possible target.  Wherever we went we looked for targets, 24 hours.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question, Mr McBride, was relating to the Marine Parade area.  Is that correct?  The Marine Parade area, including the Natal Command.

MR MCBRIDE: I can't give you a specific time, Sir.  A lot of time.

MR RICHARD: Many times?

MR MCBRIDE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: So whether it was before or after April that year, because you were there often, would you be able to describe to me what was to the North side of Natal Command at that time?

MR MCBRIDE: They were building a freeway or some sorts.

MR RICHARD: That I would ...(intervention)

MR MCBRIDE: Would North - I don't have my directions correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Think North would be, that's the side closest to Umhlanga Rocks.

MR MCBRIDE: There was a bush, there was an undergrowth there, if I can remember correctly.

MR RICHARD: And then on the Western side, that's the inland side?

MR MCBRIDE: They were building a freeway there, there was a lot of construction taking place there.

MR RICHARD: And on the Southern side?

MR MCBRIDE: Southern side, Blue Waters Hotel.  I'm remembering it because we were thinking of sending some stuff from the top of Blue Waters Hotel.

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr McBride, there's something that concerns me here.  The evidence seems to be tending to suggest that when you had decided, or whoever decided that the Natal Command was not an opportune target, that i had been replaced by the Why Not bar.  Is that the position, or was the Why Not bar a target, an independent target on it's own?

MR MCBRIDE: The instruction, Sir, was a car bomb and the Natal Command was reconnoitred for a car bomb.  When this could not be done, the suggestion already - that's why I say before Easter, was then conveyed to the Sub-Command, that alternatives had been looked at already, but they involve a bar which is frequented by Security personnel.

JUDGE PILLAY: So as I understand you then, the Natal Command was your first choice?

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, yes.

MR RICHARD: Now you anticipated one of my questions by saying you were on the constant lookout for targets, whether for the car bomb or other.

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, Sir.

MR RICHARD: Now had you been up to the top of Ridge Road, going from South to North?  On the other side of the freeway towards the North there's that big block of flats on the corner of Ridge and Oakley.

MR MCBRIDE: Ridge and Oakley doesn't ring a bell to me.  It doesn't - as you're speaking it's of no significance to me.

MR RICHARD: Did you find on top of Ridge Road, a police radio facility?

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, on Ridge Road.  I can't remember the intersecting one.  You are speaking here of Natal Command or the police facility?

MR RICHARD: I'm talking about - you drove around Durban now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is it the Flying Squad ...(intervention)

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: ... on Ridge Road they've got the Flying Squad base there with radio masts etc.

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct, yes.

MR RICHARD: You're familiar with that as a desirable landmark?

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, Sir.  I don't know what the roads are that go down, but I know it's on Ridge Road.

MR RICHARD: Now in that vicinity there's a tall multi-storey building which is a police barracks, had you identified that?

MR MCBRIDE: I hadn't.

MR RICHARD: Now then if one continues along Ridge Road and turns right some way down the road and comes back towards town, are you aware that there were police barracks in and around CR Swart Police complex?

MR MCBRIDE: There's one next to it, right next to it.

MR RICHARD: And then very nearby there's the Magistrate's Court.

MR MCBRIDE: That's correct.

MR RICHARD: Now were any of those particular possibilities considered targets?

MR MCBRIDE: You could not get into there, we looked at that, you could not get into it.  I think at some later stage another operative tried and got arrested while he was doing that.  You couldn't get in there and effect an escape properly after that.  But it was looked at.

MR RICHARD: I'm not sure which "its" we're looking about, I ...(intervention)

MR MCBRIDE: Both, all, the three places you mentioned, the Court itself, the CR Swart Square and the barracks where the people lived.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're saying they were at one stage considered but it was too difficult for a successful operation?

MR MCBRIDE: Yes, for a car bomb, you couldn't.  Yes, Sir.

MR RICHARD: Did you consider these potentials before Easter?

MR MCBRIDE: Ja, we looked at them before Easter, like we looked at a lot of other places.  In fact just to add on that, the following of the people from the barracks took place before Easter.

MR RICHARD: When was it decided between you and Mr Webster that the Natal Command wasn't really an option?

MR MCBRIDE: Very, very early, very, very early, from after he received the operation.  Because we had discussed the possibility of using mortars from the beach into there and there were questions of overshooting the target, it not being very effective because you cannot really see the target, there's a big hump in the way.  Very, very early.  We even looked at retreating on what it is, rubber, motorised rubber dinghies and none of us knew how to operate any of them or to launch it from the beach.  So that was very early, very early in - it might have been contained in one of the communiques I took over to the comrades to Botswana, on my second or third trip.  There might have been a report on that.

MR RICHARD: Was it considered that it might have been possible to mortar attack it from that reasonably large patch of bush to the North?

MR MCBRIDE: Is that the one which you pointed out to somebody the other day?

MR RICHARD: Yes.

MR MCBRIDE: Well it was too close, and the bush, if you are sending the stuff up from the bush it might catch on some of the trees and it was also close.  My understanding from mortars, the theoretical information I got, was that you required some distance because your trajectory is a parrabeller.  So there must be some space on your x-axis.

MR RICHARD: And the Northern wall where cars could park?

MR MCBRIDE: We might have discussed it, I can't remember specifically.

MR RICHARD: Now what was the essence of your decision that it was a waste of time to attack Natal Command?

MR MCBRIDE: The one was you couldn't get cars closely, private cars and the second one was it's an open space.  The effect of the car bomb is most felt when it's more of a built-up area, there is some kind of confinement.

MR RICHARD: Now during the process ...(intervention)

JUDGE PILLAY: What was the - when you went to fetch the material to build this car bomb, what was the intended target at that stage?

MR MCBRIDE: The intended target was Why Not already at that stage.

JUDGE PILLAY: Can you give us an idea as to when Why Not was then established as the appropriate target?

MR MCBRIDE: The decision was taken when I brought Gordon Webster across to, after he had been injured and I was told that "You must go ahead with this target, but prepare your car to receive the bombs and come and meet Rashid in the first week in June for formal instructions".  At that stage it was decided to go ahead. - by the Sub-Command.

JUDGE PILLAY: Yes, Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Mr Webster if I remember correctly, without wasting time, was arrested on the 4th of June.

MR MCBRIDE: No, you ...(intervention)