Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: Yes sir.

UNKNOWN: They were two elderly people staying together, the two of them, they were never married?

ANSWER: Yes sir.

UNKNOWN: They were as such, being elderly people an easy target for you to rob?

ANSWER: Yes to go and steal their money.

UNKNOWN: When you planned this robbery what did you anticipate, would they resist if they were there and what would you do if they resisted your attempt?

ANSWER: I was not expecting a confrontation and we were not going there to go and rob them, we were going to steal their money because we were not expecting to find them there we were going to go there and steal their money.

UNKNOWN: Wasn't he sitting on a chair in front of the house when you approached the house?

ANSWER: When we got there, he got up from the chair.

UNKNOWN: Outside?

ANSWER: Yes sir.

UNKNOWN: So you could have seen him for quite a distance before you actually came to the house?

ANSWER: We came from behind the house, we could not see what was in front of the house and when we got to the front of the house we saw him sitting there.

UNKNOWN: ...before approaching the house tried to spy and see whether somebody was there?

ANSWER: Sir the person that used to frequent the place was Johnny and he said that there was no one there, that we should go so we approached the house from the back and when we came around we found this man.

UNKNOWN: There were no other farm workers on the farm,
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they only stayed there the two of them?

ANSWER: There was a house in front of their house where there was no one.

UNKNOWN: ...you said you know the circumstances, you know the farm, you knew that they were staying there so didn't you know that they didn't have any persons staying with them on the farm?

ANSWER: No I did not know about the workers because the house in front of their house was occupied by black people and I did not know who they worked for.

UNKNOWN: How did Mohani receive a wound on his hand, how was he wounded?

ANSWER: He says the way in which I was stabbing this Mr Lourens he tried to assist in rescuing(?), he says he was stopping me and I struck him in the process although I couldn't remember that.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Nofomela did the fact that you have previously on many occasions heard the word "kaffir" being used at Vlakplaas made you think the word is less offensive?

ANSWER: Up to this day I find it very insulting, the same as I took it that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe you require a short adjournment?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman I did so but some of the things I want to ask I was not sure about have been covered by the members of the Committee.   I abandon that request and I'll proceed to put only two questions to the applicant.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Nofomela you went to Mr Lourens' farm to rob him of a lot of money, is that true?

ANSWER: Can you please repeat the question?

<UNKNOWN>: You went to the Lourens farm to rob him of lots
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of money?

ANSWER: We were going to steal a lot of money in the farm yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Lourens got killed because he interrupted your unlawful mission?

ANSWER: Yes he died in that process because he had a gun and he, he was not killed because he was trying to disturb me but he was killed because he had a gun and I stabbed him.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

JUDGE WILSON: Where was the money supposed to be kept Mr Nofomela?

ANSWER: Inside the house sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Just lying around, this lots of money they just left it lying around did they?

ANSWER: The person that knew was the one that accompanied me, Johnny Mohani, he knew where the money was.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you ask him?

ANSWER: I asked him and he said he knew where it was that we should go.

JUDGE WILSON: Was it kept in a safe or something that had to be opened?

ANSWER: He did not say it was in a safe he said it was in a bag.

JUDGE WILSON: Left their farm, two old men went away leaving their farm, leaving lots of money lying in a bag, is that what you would have us believe?

ANSWER: Sir I believed that it was there the way in which it was explained to me.

JUDGE WILSON: And you came around from the back of the house and you saw this old man sitting in his chair, why didn't you turn and run or walk away?
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ANSWER: We were already in the front of the house by this stage, by the time we got to the front of the house he had seen us and he had already got up and was coming towards us with his gun and that is why I stood until he came to me.

JUDGE WILSON: He came towards you with a gun you say now, threatening you?

ANSWER: Yes he was carrying it in his hand and he had just said "hey kaffirs what are you doing on my farm?", there was no chance for me to run away.

JUDGE WILSON: So you...him and stabbed him to death?

ANSWER: He came to me and grabbed me and that is where I grabbed his hand that had the firearm and we wrestled and I stabbed him.

JUDGE WILSON: ...that he was an old man, how many times did you stab him?

ANSWER: I cannot remember whether it was more than three times, maybe four times or five times.

CHAIRPERSON: How were you arrested?

ANSWER: Johnny Mohani was first arrested and then they looked for me and I surrendered myself to the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Johnny a member of the police as well?

ANSWER: No sir he was not.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Nofomela after your arrest you consulted Mr De Kock who was your commander who advised you that he would assist you in trying to take you out of the quagmire in which you found yourself in.   Did he explain to you how he was going to assist you?

ANSWER: He said he was going to speak to his superiors so that I could get out of the trouble I was in.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you in fact believe that he was capable of doing that?
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ANSWER: Yes I did.

SISI KHAMPEPE: That is why you persisted with the lie you gave, even during your trial?

ANSWER: Yes Ma'am.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In your application you state that the reason why you stabbed Mr Lourens was because you lost control after he called you a "kaffir"?

ANSWER: Yes that is one of the causes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ...him pointing you with a gun?

ANSWER: That's right.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So which came first, did he point at you with a gun and then call you a "kaffir" or he called you a "kaffir" and advanced towards you with a gun?

ANSWER: He came to me having already called me a "kaffir" by the time he came to me I was angry already.    Secondly it was so that I could get the firearm from him.

CHAIRPERSON: After stabbing him did you take his firearm?

ANSWER: I left it lying on the ground.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand it, you attempted to burn the house down?

ANSWER: That's correct.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DE WET-MARAIS

MR DE WET-MARAIS: I have no re-examination Mr Chairman but before this witness stands down, Mr Chairman it appears as if one of the Committee members has another question.

JUDGE WILSON: I'm a little confused now, you've told us that while you were struggling with Mr Lourens your companion tried to stop you and he got stabbed on the hand?

ANSWER: That's what he said to me sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Was he involved in the struggle while you were struggling with Mr Lourens when he approached you
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outside the house?

ANSWER: Yes he was there.

JUDGE WILSON: I understood earlier in your evidence you said he went on into the house and you tried to burn the house down to get rid of his fingerprints in the house?