Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-20

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: But I have said that so clearly, that I was arrested for criminal acts.  Why was I arrested?  I was arrested for criminal acts.  Have you ever heard me say those were not criminal acts?  Yes, those were criminal acts because I suffered so much and I'm explaining and I've even explained, furnished you with so much explanation as to why I did those acts and that's different from what you are reading for me now.  Those are the records I agree with but what you've read for me it's strange.
	I don't dispute what I know.  Whenever I dispute something it is because of a genuine reason, that I don't know it.  I will go to the Judge and plead and do say that I have done this and qualify why I did what I would have done, I will not dispute.  This is why you find I have those offences going around the clock because I would at the same time concede to that and say I have committed and offence and agree.

MR NEL: Mr Gwamanda, if we may move on.  What exactly were your instructions with regards to your part in the assassination of Mr Phosa?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: My involvement was that I would get instructions from my superiors and they wanted to see me shooting, shooting the person, not the targets as it would be the case at the shooting range.  So that would have been the part.

MR NEL: I want to elaborate a little bit more if you may, Mr Gwamanda.  What exactly were your instructions as to how was the assassination of Mr Phosa going to take place.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I would have waited for the instructions.  There is not a time where, or there was never a time where I gave an instruction but I would receive instructions and be told as to what is next and what will be done from all these superiors.  I would not give any instructions or ask anything, like for instance wanting to go to be trained at the shooting range but Elijah came to me and pleaded with me that I should work hand-in-hand with them and it came as a shock to me when I discovered that these were not moral police.  All this time I kept thinking that they were  ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda, the question was, how was the assassination to take place?  I think, am I correct in saying that you answer is that you weren't given any specific plan as to how the assassination was to take place but you expected that you were called upon to shoot, you didn't know where exactly, where you'd be positioned or did you and if you did what were the plans if any, relating to the actual assassination?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: What I had knowledge about, although I'm not too sure, I think Matthew Phosa was going to deliver a speech in Legazi.  There would have been a gathering of the community and we were only told that we should go there.  I was awaiting instructions that this is where Matthew Phosa will be and this is where the action will take place.  You see if you give an instruction you will furnish each and every detail that is necessary for the or to execute the action.  So I would have waited for them and I was going to wait for further instructions so I could execute the instruction. 	And there is something that I left behind.  Please do remember that Legazi place, I know it very well and I was a prisoner.  Maybe your next question will be, how do I know Legazi.  I know Godeni, it's one part of Legazi.  I know Malelani is one part of Mpumalanga.  I know Godeni.  I know Legazi.  I will tell you that this is Legazi, this is Legwatini.  Those areas are in Mpumalanga, I know them very well.  But then again I will not count all these places because those were important places and the superior knew them very well and I will hear them say and talk otherwise in the farms.
	There was another farmer who had livestock and they used to like going to see him but all I'm trying to explain is that we were taken to Nelspruit and the mission was to hit or to assassinate Matthew Phosa but then all that was aborted and we had to go back to Barberton.

MR NEL: Are you saying that you're travelling towards Nelspruit, in fact to the Post Office with a car full of ammunition and weapons, the mission is going to be that you are going to assassinate Mr Phosa and you have received no instructions to that effect?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: That's very true.  We were using the Monza which belonged to the Town Prison.  The Town Prison ...[end to tape] was private and belonged to Lieutenant Venter but that was one other car.  The Monza had or bore the state's registration so that when we meet or come across other state vehicles no questions should be raised to them because we will be so clear that we are using a state car and therefore we are up to a state mission.

MR NEL: Mr Gwamanda, the question once again.  When you arrived at Nelspruit you had no planning in the planned assassination of Mr Phosa?

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Nel, his answer was "yes".

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's quite clear, he said that they didn't have any specific plans other than that he knew that he was going to go and shoot Mr Phosa and most likely at Legazi where he was to attend a public meeting.

MR NEL: And according to your statement, Mr Gwamanda, you say that in Nelspruit - I refer you to paragraph 10, you met Colonel Roets, Lieutenant Joubert, Lieutenant Venter, you parked the cars near the Post Office and there many AWB members driving 4X4 vans and wearing AWB uniforms, is that correct?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Not to say there were so many.  What I was referring to was that there were at least more than eight, not - you are exaggerating when you're saying there were so many you know, numerous, no it was not like that.  There were just a bit over eight or nine and they were parked there.  You could tell from their stomach that these are men amongst men.

MR NEL: Mr Gwmanda, I'm actually referring to your statement when you said many.  On this particular day when you parked the cars near the Post Office, was during the day or at night?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: It was during the day because it was mid-morning, around half, because we left at half past seven for eight because we had just had breakfast in prison.  You see the prison opens at six, the prison master opens at six then we will have breakfast then we took off around eight, therefore we would have arrived in Nelspruit in the mid-morning.

MR NEL: I just found it a bit strange, find it a bit strange that a gathering of AWB members in full uniform in broad daylight planning an assassination on Mr Phosa, don't you think that's a bit farfetched, Mr Gwamanda?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Listen very carefully, I will give an explanation to you.  You see they wore these shorts, the khaki shorts.  The AWB uniform is khaki and those were the clothing they had on, khaki shorts and khaki shirts ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gwamanda, did they have any insignia on the arms or shoulders, like a military uniform, police uniform or was it just plain khaki?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Thank you very much.  I'm trying to explain that it was just a plain khaki shirt and khaki shorts.  What made me to say it's a uniform is because they would have khaki, the AWB is renowned by having those khaki uniforms, so this is why I take it that was khaki uniform for AWB.

MR NEL: What I'm trying to establish Mr Gwamanda, is if anybody would want to assassinate any person, one would find it strange that there's a gathering of people with 4X4's and AWB members in uniform concentrating on this plan, wouldn't one expect that a plan like this would have been executed clandestinely perhaps?  This sounds a bit far fetched don't you agree with me?