Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-03

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand his evidence he referred to a I think about three groups, the first group of two persons were captured after the shoot-out at C Section, is that right?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: And then later on at approximately 5a.m. a further person was captured and his name was Mokwena, is that right?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Buthelezi Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And then there were persons who went to Manyala to report that they had been harassed by the SDU but it turned out to be that Ntjebe had already gone there to explain what had happened.  They ran away but some were captured, I think three were captured and brought in a kombi.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Others were captured on information supplied by those who had been captured originally?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you have to specify the group that you're talking about so that he can understand the question.

MR MAPOMA: Thanks Chairperson.
	Now, were you present when Alfred Buthelezi was captured?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I was present Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: And when Mr Buthelezi was captured his son Thokozani was already in your custody, correct?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: His son was identified by the two we caught and then his son, after catching him, said: "Dad explain to these people why you sent me".  He told us that his dad sent him to kill the members of the SDU's, that's the reason why his father was also killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you should - the first two that you captured after the shoot-out, do you remember those?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I remember just one.

CHAIRPERSON: And was that Mokwena?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you captured two and one of them was Mokwena?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, did you then speak to Mokwena and this other person to find out who else had been involved in the attack at Blanko's house?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, we talked to them and we asked them where they got the parcels from because they had parcels in their hands, then they gave us information.

CHAIRPERSON: Just tell us what you did to those persons that you captured, Mokwena and the other chaps.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We took them to the community with the evidence that was found in their hands.  We went to show the community and we revealed the information as to who was in their company.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was the community?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I think there were many members of the community, close to 500 Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these the person who had gathered at Blanko's house?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I've explained Sir that those are the people who gathered at Blanko's place.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand that.  Now, at what stage did you then ask the persons to give the names of other person who had been involved in the attack at Blanko's place?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: After catching them, on our way back to the community we wanted information from them, we did not kill them immediately.

CHAIRPERSON: When asking them for this information, did you do anything to them?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We did not do anything to them but they were scared because we were armed.

CHAIRPERSON: What information did you require from them and what information did they give to you?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The first information was with regard to Bulelwa's death, that she was killed by members of the Youth League and the second point was that of Blanko, they killed Blanko.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, did you ask them firstly who had killed Bulelwa Ziwane?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, we asked them Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did they say?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: They said Vips was responsible.

CHAIRPERSON: And then did you ask them who had attacked Blanko's house?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We asked them Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did they say?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: They said they attacked Blanko's house.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they tell you who else had been involved in the attack at Blanko's house?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: They told us their names but this took place in 1993, I've forgotten their names.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you look for the persons who had been mentioned by these two persons?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We went to look for them Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you find them?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We found some and then the others we could not find.

CHAIRPERSON: How many did you find?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, I already indicated that the people who died are nine in all.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that the people who died are nine, but we're just at a stage where you were questioning the two persons, Mokwena and the other person as to who had taken part in the attack at Blanko's house, do you understand the question?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You then said that they gave you the names of the persons who had been involved in the attack at Blanko's house.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You then looked for those individuals.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And you only managed to get some but not all?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go to look for those individuals, you personally, did you go to look for those individuals whose names had been mentioned?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, Chairperson, we went in two groups.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did your group go to?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Our group when to C.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you find anyone at C?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, Chairperson, we could not find anybody.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the other group find anyone?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: They came back with three people.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you still remember the names of the persons that they came with?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I do not remember their names.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Buthelezi one of them?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I said that Buthelezi was caught in the meeting because his son mentioned his name.  He was amongst the crowd, they did not bring him with.  The group came back three people, Buthelezi was caught amongst the people who gathered at the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  So you now had five persons.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then Buthelezi was captured at the meeting?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: That made six?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The other group, you split into two groups, right?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know who were members of the other group?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The other group was led by Sugar.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say Buthelezi was captured at the meeting?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Was this near Blanko's house?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It was at Blanko's place Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And Buthelezi was present within the community, he was amongst the people who had gathered there?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: How did it come about that he was captured, who pointed him out?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I said Sir, his son, after we caught him, he said: "Father speak out, tell them you sent to kill them".

CHAIRPERSON: Was his son captured with the three persons by the Sugar group?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Which three people Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, your group did not find anyone.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We did not get anyone.

CHAIRPERSON: The group that was led by Sugar captured three.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, was Buthelezi's son amongst the persons who were captured by the Sugar group?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How did it come about that Buthelezi's son said: "Father, you said we must go to Blanko's house"?