Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-02

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: It is apparent from the proceedings in the Supreme Court that a certain Mrs Maria Gcabashe was present throughout this attack that you and your co-perpetrators had done on that day in question?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: I don't know the name Maria Gcabashe, it is my first encounter with this name.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: During the course of this attack on this people, do you remember seeing a lady out there, who was present and who was witnessing these attacks on the people?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes, I recall that.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Was any attempt made by yourself or any of your co-perpetrators to kill, maim or injure Maria Gcabashe or the lady that was present on that day in question?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: No, we did not attempt that.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Was this attack carried out during the day or at night?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: It was during the day, at about three o'clock in the afternoon.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Was there any reason for not attacking the lady or ladies that were present at the time that you committed these attacks?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: The reason why we did not attempt to attack the lady, was that she did not form part of the big group that came to attack us in our area, the IFP area that is.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Are you saying then that the other persons that were either killed or assaulted by you and your co-perpetrators, were members of a group, a larger group that attacked people in your area?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: About how much prior to this incident in February 1993, did this other attack that you referred to, take place?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Our incident, it was around August 1992 when we were attacked.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: As a result of that attack, Mr Zulu, can you tell the Committee whether any members or supporters of the IFP were killed by members of the attacking party?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Please repeat your question.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: During the attack, you referred to an attack that took place during or around August 1992, during that attack, were any members of the IFP killed during that attack by the opposing party?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes, they were.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Can you tell the Committee the names of those people that were killed?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: The first one was Mr Luthuli, an old man.  The second one was Mr Sithole, he was fairly old as well.
	The third one was Thulani Zulu.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: You mentioned Mr Luthuli, was Mr Luthuli related to you in any way?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Mr Luthuli was not related to me.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Was Mr Luthuli related to your co-accused in the criminal proceedings?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: You mentioned the third person as being Thulani Zulu, was Thulani Zulu related to you in any way?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes, he was my relative.

MR LAX: Just for completeness sake, Mr Luthuli, what was he to your co-accused?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: He was a father to the co-accused.

MR LAX: And Sithole, the late Sithole?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: He was a neighbour.

MR LAX: Of Luthuli or of yourself, or both of you, I don't know?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Luthuli's neighbour.

MR LAX: Thank you Mr Maharaj.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Mr Zulu, did you identify the party that had actually attacked the IFP and had killed these people?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Who was that?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: The first one who was leading them, was Shonisosi.  The second one was Zenzile Shangase.  The others, I don't remember their names, but I know them by sight.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: This attack that was mounted upon the deceased and the other complainants in the criminal charge by yourself and your co-perpetrators, I would like you to tell the Committee, was this attack mounted purely as a result of you wanting to get personal vengeance as a result of your relative having been killed, or was it done for any other political reason?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: We did not mount this attack as a result that our relatives were killed, but we had to attack them because we would then be free to have our meetings as IFP with no disturbance from the other side.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Let's take the situation a little further, let us assume that a member of the IFP who was residing in your area, the IFP area, had killed your brother, what would have been the proper proceedings, or accepted procedure within your community to have been followed?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Please repeat.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Let us assume that a member of your relatives was killed by a member of the IFP, who was residing on your side of the road, what would have been the procedure that would have followed to resolve the matter?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: We would have sat down and discussed the matter.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Mr Zulu, at page 39 of the bundle of papers, there is a warning statement that was taken down from you for the purposes of the criminal proceedings.
	In that warning statement you mentioned a person by the name of Mbeki Mkhize.  Can you tell the Committee whether in fact you had furnished the name of that person to the person that had taken down your warning statement?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: To tell the honest truth, I don't know this Mbeki Mkhize.  I was in the company of the other three.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: The other three that you mentioned to the Committee earlier on?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: That is true.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: During the course of the criminal trial, is there any particular reason why you did not tell the Presiding Judge what the reason was for you having been part and parcel of this group that had perpetrated these acts upon the deceased and the complainant?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Won't you please repeat that question.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: It is apparent from the criminal record that you never gave the version that you are giving to the Committee today.

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: The situation that prevailed at the time, was not quite conducive for me to divulge that much information to the Court of law, because I was, I did not plead guilty and I also wanted to shorten the sentence.
	By so doing, I thought that would be effective.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Mr Zulu, the people that were killed and injured, are you satisfied that those were the same people that were part and parcel of a group that had perpetrated an attack upon the IFP camp as it were on a previous occasion?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Yes, that is correct.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: During the period 1992 - 1993, would you indicate to the Committee, what was the intensity of the violence in the area that you had lived in, in the Ndwedwe, Madada area?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: Violence erupted in 1992, until we vacated the area to Lindelani area.  That is where we will mix with the ANC, IFP and ANC.
	We will not live peacefully still in Lindelani, and we were living in a situation that suggested we were fighting, the two groups were fighting each other, the IFP and the ANC.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: As a result of the political violence that existed in that area at that particular time, can you indicate to the Committee what was the accepted norm if people had come to your camp and attacked and killed members of the community, or rather members of your political party?
	What was the accepted norm that was used to retaliate against the party that was attacking your party?

ZAKHELE AMOS ZULU: With regards to the attackers, it was a usual exercise that we will have to retaliate, since they would have attacked us first.