Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-10

CHAIRPERSON: We are resuming with the matter of Andre Visser and others and I think when we last stopped Mr Kloppers was about to be re-examined by Mrs Van der Walt.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Kloppers if I understand correctly you confirmed that you would speak the truth and that you didn't want to take the oath?

MR KLOPPERS: That's correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you confirm that the evidence which you will deliver will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

MR KLOPPERS: Yes I confirm that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Van der Walt.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you Chairperson.  Firstly regarding the video tape which we looked at involving a speech by Mr Eugene Terreblanche, you requested me to transcribe the portion which I in fact did.  I attempted and I'm still attempting, the SABC only has that portion of the speech if I might submit it?  I don't know what the last exhibit number was.  Mr Brink what is the last number?

CHAIRPERSON: Could it have been anything beyond C?  The last one I think was C, I'm not sure, I think so.  Well let us follow the usual procedures just in case there's a D and an E and an F somewhere, which I'm not sure there is.  We will just say this one is EXHIBIT 1.

MS VAN DER WALT: Exhibit 1, thank you Chairperson.  Mr Kloppers when you were under cross examination and in terms of questions which were asked by the Honourable Panel, you mentioned and also referred to your amnesty application where you would have received an order from General Constand Viljoen to perform certain deeds.  I would like to know from you exactly what you meant by that.

MR KLOPPERS: I would just like to rectify that in this light that although it filtered through as such, that was not my intention.  I did not receive any orders from General Constand Viljoen at any time.  Constand Viljoen was the chief figure in 1993 in the whole right wing organisation by which the leader, Eugene Terreblanche said he would be his Corporal, I assumed that he was also the head and through the order which I received from General Oelofse, I associated it with Constand Viljoen.

MS VAN DER WALT: Let us just take this step by step.  You say that Eugene Terreblanche said that he would be General Constand Viljoen's Corporal.  Where was this said, do you know?

MR KLOPPERS: It was said during a meeting in Potchefstroom when Constand Viljoen entered the world of politics.  He said that he would be prepared to be his Corporal and we accepted this that Constand Viljoen at that stage would take the lead with all his experience and his former position as a General in the South African Defence Force, that he would take the lead.

MS VAN DER WALT: In what would the leadership be?

MR KLOPPERS: In the revolution which we were preparing ourselves for.

MS VAN DER WALT: At that stage in what organisation did Constand Viljoen act?

MR KLOPPERS: At that stage it was the Volksfront from which he broke away ultimately and established the Vryheidsfront.

MS VAN DER WALT: The Volksfront did not only consist of members of the AWB?

MR KLOPPERS: I was a member of the Volksfront.

MS VAN DER WALT: You testified that after that meeting in Potchefstroom there were various meetings which were held in secret by Constand Viljoen, Ferdie Hartzenberg and the AWB Generals and staff?

MR KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: With your patience Chairperson I have here a report from the Rapport of the 2nd of March 1997 which I would like to submit, but we still have the problem of the exhibit numbers.  Could I make this EXHIBIT 2 then?  Thank you.  I have the original newspaper report here with me.  Mr Kloppers you know about the report which appeared in the Rapport which was entitled "Armed Revolution in 1994 Could Leave South Africa in Chaos".

MR KLOPPERS: I am aware of that.

MS VAN DER WALT: Furthermore it states Constand and them have the power of more than 100 000 men.

MR KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: There are just certain aspects which I'm going to refer to for which I want you commentary.  The armed revolt which military leaders planned before the '94 elections only required the pushing of a button to begin and it had the potential to plunge South Africa into chaos and then it continues in the 4th paragraph:  General Viljoen toured the country in 1993 and held many secret discussions with commanders from various units where the war plans were worked out in precise detail.  Furthermore a graph or a sketch of the planning stages of this strategy is provided as well as Phase 3 which is mentioned, involving strategy, armed action.  Do you know about this setup?

MR KLOPPERS: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: The setup which is provided here, is that how you understood it at the meeting at Potchefstroom that General Constand Viljoen was the General who would plan the strategy?

MR KLOPPERS: Although this newspaper report only made the facts known 4 years after the fact, that is exactly what filtered through at this meeting in Potchefstroom in 1993.

MS VAN DER WALT: And that also corresponds with your evidence where you mention the secret meetings which occurred?

MR KLOPPERS: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then it says the resistance plan was countered by internal attacks and failed as a result of internal fighting amongst the right wing groups?

MR KLOPPERS: That's correct.  These problems occurred when we had already been arrested

MS VAN DER WALT: And you mentioned that Eugene Terreblanche in Potchefstroom also attended the conference and said that he would be the Corporal of Constand Viljoen?

MR KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: During cross examination it was put to you that Japie Oelofse didn't have the power to promote you in any way or to award you within your rank as an AWB member.  Is that correct?

MR KLOPPERS: Yes, I was opposed.  It was told to me that he didn't have the might or the power and he didn't do it.  I have submitted the necessary proof to you which will be placed before the committee today surely.

MS VAN DER WALT: The first one which you refer to is the Witwatersrand Aerial Power where the Chief Commandant, Pierre Kloppers, received promotion to the rank of Brigadier and this was undertaken by the Commanding General, Japie Oelofse.  Is that correct?

MR KLOPPERS: Yes that's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the date of this document is 1/9/96?

MR KLOPPERS: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: When did you receive this document and where were you?

MR KLOPPERS: This was done during 1995, during December in Johannesburg in Diepkloof Prison and I received the document later during 1996.

MS VAN DER WALT: And that was after the incident for which you are applying for amnesty?

MR KLOPPERS: That is correct.  I had already been arrested and I had already served approximately two and a half years of my present sentence.

MS VAN DER WALT: I beg the patience of the committee to submit this as an exhibit.  Furthermore there's a certificate which was issued to you, Chief Commandant Pierre Kloppers, for reliability and loyalty to the movement.  It was issued on the 4th of December 1993.  Is that correct?

MR KLOPPERS: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And it was also signed by Eugene Terreblanche and the General of the Witwatersrand Regional Power, Japie Oelofse?

MR KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: I also beg the indulgence of the committee to submit this as EXHIBIT 4.  Furthermore you heard during cross examination that it was put to you that the order which you received from Japie Oelofse that you misinterpreted the order.  What do you say about that?

MR KLOPPERS: I still maintain that I did not misinterpret it, I tried to undertake it in as far as it was possible for me to undertake it as it was explained to me.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did Mr Japie Oelofse or Eugene Terreblanche, during the last couple of weeks after the first session of the committee, visit you in prison?