Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Presently?

MR MILLER: No, at that time in 1987, where did you live?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: At that time I was living with my late grandmother in Orlando West.

MR MILLER: Ja, but did you move from there?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I did move from my grandmother's place to live with Mrs Mandela, not for a long time. But I was somebody who moved time and again from Mrs Mandela to my place.

MR MILLER: I see, so when did you live with Mrs Mandela?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: It was - yes in 1987, I don't know the month, but it was late, somewhere in October and November.

MR MILLER: Was this in Orlando or was it in Diepkloof?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: It was still in Orlando West.

MR MILLER: And at a certain stage Mrs Mandela's house burnt down.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR MILLER: And what happened then, did you go and move in her new house?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No, sir, I didn't move with Mrs Mandela.  I set up my study, staying then with my parents in Orlando East.

MR MILLER: I see, but did you still visit Mrs Mandela after you moved out?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Definitely yes, sir, because there was a friend of mine who lived - he's a relative of Mrs Mandela, who lived there, and I was studying with him.  Then we two made a ...(indistinct).

MR MILLER: I see, so during 1998, did you see or visit Mrs Mandela at all?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, in fact not specifically her, but the friend of mine which I was studying, in addition to meet with Mrs Mandela, because she was the one who was facilitating the funds for our schooling. Then I had to have some talking with her.

MR MILLER: So in other words she continued to facilitate your studies even after you were no longer living with her?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: That's positive, yes.

MR MILLER: And you visited there from time to time.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes.

MR MILLER: That was now in Diepkloof?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR MILLER: Now during the time that you got to know Mrs Mandela, were you aware of the existence of the Mandela United Football Club?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: What I was aware of is the name of the Mandela Football Club, but to say to you presently that there were members of the Mandela United Football Club, I can't say it and I can't confirm it.

MR MILLER: Did you ever see this Football Club playing soccer?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Whilst I was in Orlando West - yes, definitely the club, which was the comrades who were staying with Mrs Mandela, they used, yes, to play because I still remember on two occasions, myself being involved on attending, being a supporter, the soccer players around the location in Orlando West, somewhere in a ground called Shanty. And at some other instance in Noordgesig with local clubs.

MR MILLER: And it has been said at the hearings that members of this Football Club were involved in violent incidents.  Can you comment on that?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: It's difficult for me to substantiate or comment on something that was out of my eyes, but as far as I know the comrades who were there, I don't remember even one making those  things which are ...(indistinct) by other people.

MR MILLER: So you never witnessed any violent incidents?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: That's positive, yes.

MR MILLER: Now you were arrested, were you not, together -well, you were one of the accused in the Stompie Seipei kidnapping trial, is that correct?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I think that's what I'm here for.  Yes, I did, I was arrested.

MR MILLER: And did you pay bail?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, that's positive.

MR MILLER: And what happened after you paid bail?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: After I paid bail, well, because I was politically active in the location, somewhere in 1990 when the trial was supposed to happen, I left the country due to political activeness which I was involved, of which I didn't attend to the trial because I thought by then it was not necessary for me to attend the apartheid court.

MR MILLER: So were you in any way guilty of the crimes of which you were charged?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: That's negative, because even if that Stompie's thing happened, even if the abduction happened, I was not even in Winnie Mandela's place, because I think by that time it was the time when our schools were closed and I was at my place.

MR MILLER: So you know nothing about Stompie's kidnapping and/or murder?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, definitely.

MR MILLER: Do you know anything about any of the other incidents that have been mentioned? I'll just mention a couple a couple of them to you.  For example do you know anything about the death of Lolo Sono?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I think what I want the Commission to tell me is, what did they call me here, because it's my first time hearing about Lolo Sono in this Commission.

MR MILLER: You've never heard about this before?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, that's what I said.

MR MILLER: And Dudu Chili?  Do you know anything about her?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I know this Dudu because I'm not staying far away from - my grandmother in fact didn't stay away from her place where she was staying.

MR MILLER: But do you know anything about her house being burnt down, or something like that?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, as a member of the community, yes, I should know that because it was not far away from our place then. I know about it that the house was burnt.

MR MILLER: But you didn't witness it?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No, definitely not.

MR MILLER: And Dr Asvat?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I only heard about it.

MR MILLER: You were not in any way a witness to anything concerning his death?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: That's negative, I never witnessed anything concerning that.

MR MILLER: Thank you, Chairperson, no further ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Order please. Hanif?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Ja, in fact before maybe I can be cross-questioned, there are some of the things which really disturb me, like for instance my presence in this Commission.  I see it irrelevant for myself to be here.

CHAIRPERSON: Wait a bit, you will get it from him.  You will hear why you are here.  Order please. Hanif?

MR VALLY: Thank you, Arch.  Mr Sithole, you were arrested on 19th of February 1989 at the household of Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela together Jerry Richardson and two others?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: What were you arrested for?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I was picked up in the yard of Mrs Mandela because that day on the 18th I slept at Mrs Mandela's place.  Then the police came and picked up everybody who was sleeping there.

MR VALLY: Did you stay there regularly?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: That's negative.

MR VALLY: So was it the first time you stayed there?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: It was not the first time sleeping there, I sometimes slept there.

MR VALLY: How often did you sleep there?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I can't say presently how often but sometimes maybe on weekends I used to sleep there and sometimes during the week when maybe we were studying with my friends.  Then I can sleep.

MR VALLY: So you stayed there weekends and you stayed there sometimes during the week?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: That's positive.

MR VALLY: Where was your residence?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: My residence were in Orlando East and Orlando West because in fact I was (...indistinct) Orlando West.

MR VALLY: Did you also stay at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's houses in Orlando West?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, sir, as I've just stated that, not regularly.

MR VALLY: So you stayed in the house in Orlando West as well  Diepkloof Extension?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: In Diepkloof Extension I used to visit, because I can't say, maybe I stayed there maybe for two or three or four consecutive days, but I used to be there sometimes for two days or one.