Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-29

MS PATEL: Okay and you know of course that many items were taken from Mr Hansel's house, did you not see any of these items in the possession of your co-perpetrators that evening?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: No I did not see anything except for the gun and the military uniform that was taken.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Who cut the telephone wires to Mr Hansel's property?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: I'm the one who cut the telephone wires.

MS PATEL: Okay and you had planned to do this before you got there?

MS PATEL: Yes that was planned in advance that we have to cut the telephone wires so as to prevent him to phone the police.

MS PATEL: Okay.  What else was planned in advance, Sir, to cut the telephone wires, what else did you decide before you got there.  Please tell us?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: We did not plan anything else except for the cutting of the telephone wires and the fact that we'd go there and get this firearm and we'd tell him to leave the farm and go to stay in town.

MS PATEL: But according to your evidence Mr Hansel was a good man.  You bought your milk from him, he even visited certain people in your area.  Why did you want him to leave?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: The reason was he was one of the farmers in our neighbourhood.

MS PATEL: I put it to you, Sir, in respect of Mr Hansel you had no political motive when you went there.  The motive was pure robbery, criminal act of robbery and assault.

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: That is not true.

MS PATEL: Okay let's move on to Mr Cobus, the incident at Mr Cobus' farm.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Ms Patel, before you go on to another incident.  Just a bit about Mr Hansel, yesterday Mr Nokawusana, when you testified you said one of the problems you had with the farmers, they were informing on you, they would tell the police whenever you hold meetings.  Was Mr Hansel one of those farmers who would tell the police that you had a meeting?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: All the farmers who were near, all the farmers were regarded as towing the same line.

ADV SANDI: Yes but you don't know if Mr Hansel did in fact telephone the police to say that comrades have a meeting, you don't know that as a matter of fact, you just believe it?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct, I did not know for certain but all the farmers were regarded as the people who were informing the police and other farmers were doing that so all the farmers were the same.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Thank you Sir.
	Let's move on to the incident with Mr Cobus.  In your statement to the investigator, is Mr Cobus you referred to as Mr Erickie?
	Sorry Honourable Chairperson, page 28 of the bundle once again, paragraph 6.

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes Cobus is Erickie.

MS PATEL: Did you once again cut his telephone wires?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct, I did that.

MS PATEL: Okay you stated yesterday that you heard that he was shot, did you not see that he was shot?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: No I did not see that.

MS PATEL: Why not, where were you at the time that he was shot?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: We were surrounding his house trying to
get in, we were pelting stones because we wanted to get inside his house.

MS PATEL: Okay.  But do you know if Mr Cobus had fired on any of your group that was present there that night?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, he shot directing at us as we were arriving or coming in.

MS PATEL: Do didn't say that in your evidence in chief yesterday, Sir, you didn't tell us that Mr Cobus had shot at you?  What is your comment on that, did you forget to tell us or what is the position?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: There was no question enquiring about that, no one asked me about it.

ADV BOSMAN: Ms Patel may I just come in here?  I just need clarity on a matter.  I don't understand, you've just said that you did not see who shot Mr Cobus is that right?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: But in the statement you say that Mr Ntonga shot at the farmer?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: The farmer that was shot by Mr Ntonga, is Mr Pretorius.

ADV BOSMAN: But in your statement paragraph 5, there you deal with
"Our third target who was known to us as Mr Erickie"
and then you proceed there and to say:
"We cut off the phone wires from outside, then we proceeded to the house, before we reached the house the farmer saw us and shot at us, Msianda Ntonga had a rifle in his possession so he shot at the farmer and we were throwing stones."

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: It could be that I am confusing the incident, I have forgotten because I did the statement some time ago and these things are no longer clear on my mind because they took place some time ago.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Ms Patel, you may proceed.

MS PATEL: Thank you.   There was no evidence at the trial that Mr Cobus had fired on you, that is correct isn't it, there was no evidence that Mr Cobus had fired a shot at you or your group, when I say you I mean your group?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: I cannot remember that also because that took place in 1990 or '92, I cannot remember what we were testifying.  I cannot remember exactly what was being said in court.

ADV SANDI: Tell me Ms Patel are you talking about Mr Cobus?

MS PATEL: Yes Honourable Committee Member.

ADV SANDI: Well if you look at the judgement at page 2, the court in their summary of the evidence they say
"Mr Cobus put up a spirited resistance, he managed to keep his attackers at bay throughout the night.  Maybe that could be what they are referring to?

MS PATEL: Well there's no clear evidence though that he shot at them, a spirited resistance might mean that he got into his house and managed to lock himself in the house without having shot at them.  I say that also given the fact that if one reads the judgement and if one looks at the information that we have on Mr Cobus, he was blind in the one eye, he had lost the use of the one eye and he was shot in the face and he was in fact shot in the other eye, the good eye.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but have you got the evidence?

MS PATEL: No, I don't have the copy of the - I don't have the transcript of the trial record, all I have is the judgement and that's what I'm going on.

CHAIRPERSON: I see so you can't put it as a matter of fact towards the applicant there was no evidence?

MS PATEL: No but he says he can't remember either.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MS PATEL: Where was I, okay.  Did you know that Mr Cobus was alone on the farm that evening?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: We did not know that, that is the reason for us to go into the storeroom, that is why we had to go to his employees and enquire about that, we did not know for sure that he was alone.

MS PATEL: Now Mr Nokawusana, are you not confusing the incidents now?  The incident where you went to the employees was that of Mr Pretorius and Mr Senti or are you saying now that you went to the employees of Mr Cobus as well?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: No I am not confusing the incidents.  We got the pliers from his employees, the one, the pliers that was used to cut the telephone wire.

MS PATEL: And was this on the same evening?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: Did you tell Mr Cobus that you want him to leave the farm?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: We could not meet with him because as we were knocking at the door we told him that we were his visitors and he said we were going to shoot him so he decided to shoot at us, we did not get a chance of getting inside and talk to him.

MS PATEL: So you say now that you knocked at the door and that you told him that you were his visitors, he then shot at you?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: And from where did he shoot, was the door open, through the window, or what?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: He shot through the window.

MS PATEL: Okay, how many times did he shoot, can you recall?

JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: I heard a bullet ringing, I ran away and after that a number of bullets rang and I did not count that.