Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-20

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee had opportunity to discuss certain issues during the lunch adjournment and I think it would be prudent and better for everybody concerned if we could have an indication as to who exactly the victims or their relatives are and on what basis the opposition is being submitted.  Is that at all possible?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, yes, that is in fact possible.  As far as the applicant, the present applicant Mndebele is concerned, he makes application for the murders of Zwane and Ngwenya, both of whom were victims on whose behalf or from the families where I hold an instruction.  The basis of the ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Who would that relative or next of kin be?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, as far as Jwi Zwane is concerned, his brother Elias Zwane who is also present.  As far as Chris Ngwenya, Lindiwe Nkosi and Thembisile Eldah Nkambule are concerned, I just want to get instructions from my attorney.  The mother of Chris Ngwenya and for that matter, the mother-in-law of Lindiwe Nkosi and then Thembisile Eldah Nkambule in person.  That is as far as this applicant is concerned.  The basis is that we would like to test the applicant's, can call it attitude that he committed or he partake in the arrangements for the murders of these people with the intent of the furtherance of the aims of a political organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any concrete reason why you should think differently?

MR HATTINGH: As far as Zwane is concerned, I've been instructed by his brother, Elias, that there was in fact a problem as far as the businesses were concerned, both Jwi Zwane and the present applicant were in business in the area and the businesses were attacked in an effort to eliminate a business for personal gain.  As far as Chris Ngwenya is concerned, we don't have specific instructions.  Our problem obviously is that we don't at this stage really have available any witnesses or statements from eyewitnesses to indicate that the killings were in fact committed for any other reason, but my respectful submission would be that we are in any event, on behalf of those victims, entitled to test and cross-examine this witness, this applicant, on his alleged reasons for partaking in those crimes.  That's it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, I can quite understand if you have specific instructions that really that the deceased and the applicant were business competitors and that may be the reason for assassinations.  That's concrete reason, whether we accept it or not is another matter.  But in this kind of particular hearing and process, it is not an inquiry and we want to finish these thousands of matters in time.  We've only got about a year to finish and I think it would be better that if there are no specific instructions in order to contest or oppose the application, then we should refrain from testing, as you put it, when we have no concrete means of doing so, and I think that's the general attitude we will adopt throughout.  It goes for anybody.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, if I may respond to that.  I trust that we will be allowed at least then on the basis of the applicant's own version of the events as set out by this applicant for instance, where on the papers itself prepared by him there appears to be ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That would be concrete.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR SANDI: Can I just make a request here.  Perhaps this request would apply in the case of every counsel who appears for victims, families or whoever was affected in whatever way by the acts of the applicants, that whenever you ask a question, one should please bear in mind the basis of his or her objection to the application, having pointed out the basis on which the application or applications are being opposed.  One should bear in mind that the question or questions being asked have to be somehow related to that.  I'm not sure if I've made myself clear.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, as far as I'm concerned, I'll do my best to assist.

JOHN MNDEBELE: (s.u.o.)

MR HATTINGH: : (cont)
	Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Mndebele, I do not want to belabour the whole issue of a distinction between the Black Cats and the IFP impis, but would I be correct to say that the Black Cats were a small group, numbering only a few people while the IFP impis implies a much, much larger group of people?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I would say the IFP was just a small group at Ermelo, it doesn't have a large followership here.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Mndebele, as far as annexures A and A1 are concerned, I just want to put it to you, and in all fairness give you the opportunity of responding to that, on annexure A, the last time that mention was made of Black Cats being perpetrators of any form of crime was on the twenty ninth (29th) of July 1990.  That was prior from that day, the twenty ninth (29th) of July 1990 until the date when the decision was made to have Mr Chris Ngwenya killed.  And on annexure A1, the last date when the Black Cats were mentioned as being the perpetrators was on the thirtieth (30th) of June 1991.  That's incident number thirteen (13) on page nineteen (19).  My question is, do you have any explanation which you can forward and tell this Committee at this stage why it was decided that Mr Chris Ngwenya was to be assassinated, which decision was taken some time in February 1992?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I think I did explain that the death of Jwi did not in any way lead to the violence subsiding.  Violence continued, people continued to die up to a time where a decision was taken that Chris too was problematic.  He was involved in the violence.  At the time Chris was working together with Israel Hlongwane, involved in this violence, we therefore came to an agreement, made a decision to remove him with the hope that the violence will subside.  People who were from school died after Jwi had died.  They shot these people at the veld, people who were coming from night school.  That was one of the reasons that led us to taking the decision that he be removed as well because we hoped that the violence would subside.

MR HATTINGH: Lastly in this regard, I just want to put it to you that when having reference to your own annexure A and A1, it would appear that there was no indication of any violence whatsoever in the six to eight months prior to the decision to have Chris Ngwenya killed.

JOHN MNDEBELE: I think I did indicate that this list is not conclusive, it's not complete.  There are some other events that happened which are not necessarily in the list.  For example, we were not in the position to liaise with the people who were victims.  There are many things that happened which are not in the list.  I also indicated that the dates in annexure A are not accurate.  Some of the dates are correct and some are not.

MR HATTINGH: Did you yourself take any action against either the Black Cats or the supporters of the IFP apart from sitting in that committee where certain decisions were made?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Would you please repeat your question?

MR HATTINGH: Did you yourself take any action against either the Black Cats, member of the Black Cats, or supporters of the Inkatha Freedom Party apart from your taking part in the special committee where certain decisions were made?

JOHN MNDEBELE: What part are you talking about?

MR HATTINGH: Did you do anything to any of the Black Cats, members of the Black Cats or Zulu supporters, apart from being part of that special committee?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes, I was communicating with members of the Black Cats and the IFP, telling them that the violence should come to an end.  We should come together, work together so that we can move forward.  That was an attempt on my part to try and quell this violence.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Mndebele, is it correct that the victim Jwi Zwane was in fact killed at your own business, at your shop?