Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-04-12

S F MANQELE: He, too, I would not be in a position to say whether he was employed or not because we used to see one another as residents of the hostel and we did not discuss anything pertaining to employment.

MS THABETE: I find that a bit strange Mr Manqele, in the sense that you got together, you planned a robbery, but you did not know whether the others were working or not.  What is your comment to that?

INTERPRETER: It looks like the applicant still has a problem with reception, may the question please be repeated.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, will you repeat the question please.

MS THABETE: Yes, Mr Chairperson.
	I say I find it strange Mr Manqele that you came together, you made a plan with these people to go and rob two people but you didn't know whether they were working or not, what is your comment to that?

INTERPRETER: Mr Chairperson it looks like the applicant still has the same problem with reception.

MR CLAASSEN: Speak to me please, Interpreter, on channel 4.  Speak to me on channel 4 please.  I hear you perfectly.  It's fine, I don't know what the problem is, it's perfect here.

MS THABETE: Shall I repeat the question?  I was saying Mr Manqele, I find it strange that you got together with these people, you stayed in the same hostel but somehow you didn't know whether they were working or not.  What is your comment to that?

MS THABETE: Chairperson I'm not getting any response.

MR CLAASSEN: There's nothing wrong with the system Judge.
PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES

S F MANQELE: Yes, I can hear now.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you give it one more try Ms Thabete, please.

MS THABETE: Thanks, Mr Chairperson.
	My question, Mr Manqele was, I find it strange that you stayed in the same hostel, You made a plan, you got together and you planned to go and rob these people but you didn't know whether Mr Mvelase and Mr Sigudu were employed or not.  What is your comment to that?

S F MANQELE: I did not know.

MS THABETE: Sorry Mr Chair, can I get some guidance.  In my recollection, I think that we asked whether they were employed or not at that stage and they said they were not employed.  Would I be correct to say so?

CHAIRPERSON: As I remember it, yes.

MS THABETE: Yes.
	Mr Manqele, in the light of the fact that - even though you didn't know at the time that Mr Mvelase and Mr Sigudu were also not employed, how do you justify or how would you explain to the Committee member that you did not commit the robbery for personal gain, but you committed the robbery to further the objectives of the IFP as you have alleged?

S F MANQELE: I would say that - pertaining to what befell us, I can say that we did not involve ourselves in the crime for personal gain.  I am confident that had it not been for the things that were happening at the place where I was residing, I would not be here.  I had been in Johannesburg for quite some time and I had come here specifically to look for a job so that I could take care of my parents, but then the situation at my place of residence was such that I ended up being here where I am today.  Had it not been for the fact that members of the IFP found themselves faced with conflict which could not be escaped to save oneself, it is therefore for that reason that we did what we did for that one reason, because it was peaceful and there was stability in the years when I arrived here in Johannesburg, but then I later on found myself deeply involved in the violence that landed me here.  What I can say to the Committee is that what I did with my colleagues was not that I wanted any personal gain but instead we wanted to further the aims of the members of the IFP.

MS THABETE: What were the aims of the IFP that you wanted to further?

S F MANQELE: If I still remember very well, according to what I heard from the IFP from my childhood, the aim was that we had to unite and be one and stop hatred and conflict so that things should be resolved through negotiations.

MS THABETE: So how did you seek to achieve that aim by robbing somebody?

S F MANQELE: The aim was such that myself and my colleagues found ourselves in a conflict situation.  It was not the intention or aims of the IFP that we found ourselves in that position.  I, for one, do not remember any IFP member coming to me or other members in a meeting or whatever, saying that we should fight, but instead what was happening is that I heard the IFP meeting, that I heard from IFP members in some of the meetings that these people are talking rubbish, they are not going to dictate to us.

MS THABETE: In other words you were not going to listen to IFP?

S F MANQELE: The ones that I am saying were talking rubbish.

MS THABETE: What I am asking is, in other words you were saying that you were not going to, by doing this you were going to go against the policy of the IF, because, as far as you were concerned, they were talking rubbish.  Did I hear you correctly?

S F MANQELE: No, you did not get me well.  The people whom I am saying they are talking, it is actually IFP members who were talking, referring to ANC members with whom we were in conflict...... (end of Side A of tape) ... from my childhood, as a member of the IFP, I was told that problems can be resolved through negotiations.  That is why I am saying that the conflict itself was not part of the policies or aims of the IFP.

MS THABETE: Yes, but how did you seek to achieve the aims of the IFP by going to rob somebody?

S F MANQELE: There was no other way through which we could accomplish the aims of the IFP.  Our involvement in the conflict was in itself the violation of the policies of the IFP.  It is we members of the IFP who were involved in violence.

MS THABETE: Thanks.  Mr Manqele, considering the fact that what you did was against the IFP policies, if you were so concerned about fund-raising for the IFP, why didn't you go to IFP officials or the authorities at the hostel, because from the letter that is in the bundle it was clear that there were IFP authorities at the hostel?  My question is why didn't you approach them to find out how you could fund-raise for the IFP and do something that was within the policies of the IFP if you were so concerned about fund-raising for the organisation?

S F MANQELE: According to my knowledge, the reason for us not going to the leadership of the IFP is that the conflict - the reason for us not going to the leadership of the IFP at the hostel is that the violence that we were facing at Dube was directed at us, not them.  And for the violence to reach them or affect them, it had to affect us first.

MS THABETE: Sorry Mr Manqele, can I cut you there, I am talking about authorities in Dube Hostel, I am not talking about authorities from elsewhere.

S F MANQELE: Yes, I am referring to the leadership at the hostel.  The leaders at the hostel, they as leaders at the hostel were leaders because of us.  Every bad thing ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Who were they?  Let's hear that.  Who are these leaders at the hostel?

S F MANQELE: The ones that I still remember are Mr Hlongwane, Mr Xinde and Mr Zulu.  Those are the ones that I still remember, and a few others.

CHAIRPERSON: Those were IFP members.  They were the IFP leaders in the hostel, am I correct?

S F MANQELE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: They would know who their foot soldiers were, their members in the hostel, correct?

S F MANQELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And they knew you, as a resident of Dube Hostel?

S F MANQELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed.

MS THABETE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	I am coming now to the incident in question.  Considering the fact that there were four of you, some of you were armed, including yourself, you approached a lady, you were all men, the four of you, you approached a lady who was unarmed, how do you explain and justify this politically.  Oh, sorry, before you answer that one, why did you shoot her?