Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-17

MR WEBSTER: You must have had a special reason for particularly identifying this direction, is that so, not so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, I wanted to bring the vehicle to a halt by shooting at the wheel.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: In other words when you fired at this vehicle at all times, you were acting lawfully, is that correct?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WEBSTER: And in so far as you are aware, you at no time fired at the occupants of the vehicle, is that correct?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I did aim at the left-rear wheel of the vehicle Mr Chairperson and not deliberately at the passengers.

MR WEBSTER: Because Mr Botha, I'm forming a little picture in my mind, vehicles are moving, you've got a gun, presumably sticking out of the window and if you are aiming for the wheel, that direction in which your firearm points is going to differ from the direction in which your firearm would point if you were firing at the occupants, are we agreed?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct.

MR WEBSTER: So you aimed at the wheel?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct.

MR WEBSTER: You fired at the wheel?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Correct.

MR WEBSTER: Not at the occupants.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I did shoot at the vehicle but it was difficult because I had to swerve away from the vehicle.  I shot at the left rear wheel, it could be that I shot a little bit high once or twice, but not deliberately, but I was trying to shoot at the wheel to stop the vehicle.

MR WEBSTER: How many shots did you fire?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, I'm not sure.  I'm not sure how many shots I fired.

MR WEBSTER: But at all times in the direction of the wheel, is that correct?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct.

MR WEBSTER: When the vehicle stopped you did not continue firing, is that correct?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct.

MR WEBSTER: And if I understand you then, Mr Botha, you at no stage acted unlawfully.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson no, this is where my unlawful deed started, after the vehicle had been stopped.

MR WEBSTER: I'm just talking of the shooting, we'll get to that, we won't cheat you in your application Mr Botha.  Up until that stage when the vehicle stopped, you had not acted unlawfully.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: And after that you did not fire at or shoot anybody?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Correct.

MR WEBSTER: So you were not in any way responsible for the murder of those people?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, as I had said I did shoot at the left rear wheel of the vehicle.  It could be possible that in the pursuit the shots could have gone a little bit higher.  If photo's had been available I could point it out, if I can remember it correctly.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Botha, we are dealing with facts not dealing of speculation here.  You've concede that you at no stage fired in the direction of the occupants and you have also concede that you at no stage acted unlawfully until the vehicle stopped.  Do you remember admitting that?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct.

MR WEBSTER: In other words there's no reason or basis for your to apply for amnesty for murder, is that not so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, I've already left that in the hands of the Committee to make a decision at the end of the day.

MR WEBSTER: You see you're not a lay person Mr Botha and at the same time I will agree with you that neither you nor I have the power to condone anything.  It lies with the Committee, but in so far as we are delving and dealing with your application, unfortunately I believe I have to ask you this question.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, you did not even know whether you killed anybody or injured anybody?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: Till today, if anybody had been injured it would have been in the lawful execution of a duty?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR WEBSTER: So you don't need amnesty.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: No, Mr Chairperson, I need amnesty and this is what I've applied for and this is why I'm sitting here.

MR WEBSTER: We know you've applied for amnesty Mr Botha.  We know that, but looking at the facts, considering what the law is, you know that you don't need, you had no need of an application for amnesty, you have no need of amnesty, in so far as you are concerned and even if any criminal prosecution had been brought against you before you made this application, you would have said "I executed a lawful duty and at no stage did I act unlawfully or deliberately murder and kill people", would you not have said so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, I'm here today applying for amnesty and I quite possibly do not understand the question properly or I don't understand how to answer it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just explain to me now.  People who are applying for amnesty are those who have committed an offence.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What offence did you commit?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, I asked for amnesty for all these offenses.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I mean what offence did you commit?  Not what you are applying for.  What offence did you commit?  What crime did you commit?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, defeating the ends of justice, obstructing justice, perjury, illegal possession of firearms and also offenses and delicts that might flow from this and then also any other offence or illegal deed that might appear from the evidence, but I have also applied from A in Exhibit B, from A page 1 to A.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: I was daydreaming for a little moment, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  There are a number of offenses for which he has obviously applied for amnesty.

MR WEBSTER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Perjury etc.

MR WEBSTER: Yes, I understand the perjury, I understand the defeating the end of justice etc etc, but you should not apply for murder, do you agree?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, I'm just worried that one of my bullets could have shot away and possibly hit someone in their body, if one bears in mind that the wheel of the vehicle is rather low and the seats in a vehicle are rather low and that is something you realise afterwards, but whatever.  If I had shot one of the people, then I am applying for amnesty for murder.

MR WEBSTER: But this is my point, Mr Botha, you did not act unlawfully.  Is that not what you are saying?

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't intend to kill anybody?  If anybody got hurt it was accidental because you were aiming to shoot at the car?  That's the point he is trying to make.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: Then in fact, so far as you are aware sitting there today, you didn't shoot any person, is that not so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: As far as my knowledge goes, yes.

MR WEBSTER: And nobody has as yet accused you of shooting any person, isn't that, Mr Botha?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WEBSTER: I see.  May I suggest something to you and that is, that's where we started, with the oath to tell the truth.  May I suggest that your conscience is not at rest because even though you have decided to apply for amnesty, you are not disclosing the full facts regarding the killing of these people, Mr Botha.  Is that not so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, if there is something that our learned friend thinks that I'm hiding then he must tell me because I am trying to tell everything, because I am applying for amnesty here.