Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well, let's just refer to it as a room, I think and we'll all understand that.

MR WILLS: Who placed Ms Khubeka in the room where she subsequently died?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot recall, Chairperson.  I delivered Khubeka to Taylor and Botha was also present.

MR WILLS: ...remember how, if she was assisted to get out the car, or anything along that nature, out of the bus, sorry, the panel van?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot specifically recall that she was assisted, but she was blindfolded and she would have been picked up and brought out.

MR WILLS: You didn't do that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I may have assisted with that.

MR WILLS: When you got back, you say, your evidence is seemingly not certain, you're not sure whether it was Taylor or Botha who informed you that she died.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It was Botha who told me that she had died.

MR WILLS: And what exactly did he say to you, to the best of your recollection?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: He told me that Khubeka had died of a heart attack, or that she had had a heart attack and died.

MR WILLS: Did he tell you how long ago this had occurred?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Did you get an impression that it was just immediately before you arrived, or she'd been lying there dead for some hours, or minutes?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I did not formulate an opinion about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go and take a look at the body that is prior to the time that you say after you had waited and loaded it into the Skyline, did you go and take a look at it?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, I didn't go.  I went into the room to fetch her when we loaded her into the vehicle to go and drop her off.

MR WILLS: I assume when you went into the room to collect her, you would have switched on a light in that room, her body that is?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: There was a light in that room.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, did you switch it on when you went to fetch the body?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that.  I cannot recall whether the light was on, or whether I switched it on.

CHAIRPERSON: But you can recall that it was on then, the light was on?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.  I saw the person lying there.

MR WILLS: Whereabouts was the deceased lying in the room?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: She lay in the room.  I cannot say precisely what her position was, but when I entered the room she lay on her back in the room.

MR WILLS: She was lying on her back?

CHAIRPERSON: That's what he said.  She was lying on her back.

MR WILLS: Are you certain about that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: As far as I can recall.

MR WILLS: And you went in with your colleague, I think it's Wasserman.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That's correct.

MR WILLS: And how did you pick her up and put her into the boot of the Skyline?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Wasserman and I picked her up by her arms and also by her feet and then put her into the boot of the car.

MR WILLS: Who picked up her arms?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot say for certain.

MR WILLS: Did you notice anything in the room at the time you picked her up?  Anything unusual?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, as far as I can recall the room was empty, there wasn't anything else in the room.

CHAIRPERSON: When you're saying empty, there was no furniture even, it was just four walls and a floor?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: As far as I can recall.  I cannot recall whether this was on that day or at a later stage, there were

INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon Chairperson, I couldn't hear the witness when he states what was in the room?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: There were shooting targets in the room.

MR WILLS: Was there urine on the floor?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, as far as I can recall it was wet, the body of the deceased was wet and I also believe that water had been poured on her, because there was water on the floor.

MR WILLS: Was there blood on the floor?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Why are you so sure of that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Because I would have seen blood if there had been blood.

MR WILLS: Would have you seen marks on her body?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I did not disrobe her, she was clothed.

MR WILLS: Can you remember what clothes were there?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot recall.

MR WILLS: Can you remember if it was a jersey?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot recall.

MR WILLS: One would imagine that had she been beaten as described by the previous witness, that she'd have marks on her arms and her back.  Not so?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I didn't notice that.  I didn't see any marks which fixed my attention on the fact that she had been assaulted or struck.

MR WILLS: Yes, but what I'm trying to suggest is that you would have noticed if she had bare arms and there were marks on her arms, you would have noticed them.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.  Dark person's would not mark the same way that lighter persons would.  I cannot recall that I saw any marks on her and I did not inspect her specifically for any marks.

MR WILLS: If her arms were bare and there were bruises on her arms from a sjambok, is it likely that in the circumstances of you picking her up that you would have noticed those bruises?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: She was hit hard on numerous occasions with a sjambok and the evidence is that she tried to fend off the blows with her arms.  What I'm suggesting is that you would have noticed it, had her arms been bare.

CHAIRPERSON: I think perhaps maybe wheel marks, because I don't know how long it takes a bruise to form and I don't know if a bruise can form after a person has died, but perhaps if  you could ask about wheel marks.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I did not see any of those marks.

MR WILLS: My point is slightly different.  You see, the evidence is that she was wearing a long-sleeved sweater and what I'm trying to get out of you is that had she been, had she not, sorry let me rephrase completely.  Our evidence will be that at the time she was wearing a long-sleeved sweater and I'm suggesting to you that had she been wearing a garment that didn't cover her arms, and had she been assaulted in the manner that has been previously described, you as an experienced policeman would have noticed bruises on her arms, so the implication is that the possibilities are good that she'd been wearing something that covered those marks?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot remember anything like that, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now, did you clean up the room afterwards?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Singular, now or in the plural again?

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Were you involved personally in the clean-up of the room?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Do you know who was?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: When you got back in the morning at sunset, did you never establish that or were you never tasked to do that?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that I went back to that room.

MR WILLS: Was there a domestic servant employed there at any stage?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So one of the persons present would have obviously had to do some cleaning up, even if it's just to wipe up the urine and the water?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That's correct Chairperson, but I was not involved in that.