Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-20

MR J DE CASTRO: No.

MR MALAN: Okay thank you.

ADV SOGODI: Sorry.  You've just mentioned that you had the busiest business in the Free State?

MR J DE CASTRO: One of the busiest business.

ADV SOGODI: One of the busiest.  Well I don't know how big Wesselsbron is or, but were you one supermarket which, I mean were there other supermarkets which would close more or less the same time as you or were you the supermarket which closed the latest?

MR J DE CASTRO: We were the one which closed the latest yes.

ADV SOGODI: And there has been evidence that your supermarket wasn't very far from the police station?

MR J DE CASTRO: Well it was the furthest out of all them away from the police station, yes.

ADV SOGODI: The furthest or the nearest?

MR J DE CASTRO: The furthest.

ADV SOGODI: How far, I mean how far was the police station from you?

MR J DE CASTRO: I'll say about 5 blocks away.

ADV SOGODI: And was your supermarket patronised by the policemen?

MR J DE CASTRO: Petrolised?

ADV SOGODI: Yes patronised.

CHAIRPERSON: Patronised, were policemen among your customers?

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes.

ADV SOGODI: Would they come to your supermarket dressed in their uniform?

MR J DE CASTRO: Sometimes yes.

ADV SOGODI: Would they come in groups maybe or would it just be just an individual who would be coming maybe as friends and then be seen to be a group?

MR J DE CASTRO: Well look they used to come and buy, sometimes they were alone, sometimes they had relatives with them.  That wasn't my worry, my worry was to do business.

ADV SOGODI: Ja I know, I'm just trying to get the picture from you.  And do you know if the Free State was, in the Free State that there was a strong presence of the AWB or do you have knowledge of that?

MR J DE CASTRO: Well as I mentioned earlier, I didn't belong to any political group but I was aware of political organisations, yes.

ADV SOGODI: Were you aware of a strong presence of the AWB in the Free State?

MR J DE CASTRO: Well I heard it direct from the newspaper, I read about it, AWB but I had nothing to do with them I didn't even consider that as any ... (intervention)

ADV SOGODI: No we understand that you had nothing to do but I mean I'm just talking about your perception of what you say happening in the Free State.  Do you know what uniform the AWB people wore?

MR J DE CASTRO: Not at all.

ADV SOGODI: So if AWB people came to your shop maybe as a group, you wouldn't be able to identify them as AWB people?

MR J DE CASTRO: I wouldn't be able to identify them, no.

ADV SOGODI: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, some of the points I wanted to raise have been already raised by the Committee, but I'll just ...(indistinct) by Dr Malan, to follow up on the number of people.  You may comment if you have any knowledge, just put it to you.  When the applicants were telling their story here it was put to them that they should have killed many people there because there were many people in that shop.  Would you regard that as many people, the twelve, the family members, many people or when it was put, the way it was put was such that there were many people in the shop and if they wanted to kill they should have killed many people, that is how it was put to them.

MR MALAN: I think that's again a mistake, it was put that there was better times to kill many people if they wanted to kill many people.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman if that's the case I withdraw the question, maybe I took it from but I thought that.  Okay, you talked about the Bhani was having a briefcase on the day in question.  Now according to the evidence in Court about the person who was in the garage who saw the attackers leaving the van and entering the supermarket, he did not see any person carrying anything when they entered the shop but he saw them when they were coming out of the shop carrying money bags.  ...(inaudible) your comment to that?

MR J DE CASTRO: That's news to me.

MR MALAN: Sir I didn't get your question.  Could you just repeat that for my sake?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I'll repeat it Mr Chairman.  I'm saying that according to the evidence made in Court, there was a person, a witness, who was in the garage who saw the attackers entering the shop and he did not see them carrying anything, even guns but he heard shots when they were inside but he saw them when they came out of the shop carrying money bags.

MR J DE CASTRO: That is news to me, I really don't I don't agree with you, I don't agree with you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: No further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR STEENKAMP: No re-examination thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STEENKAMP

MR MALAN: I just want to get a clearer picture in my mind as to the lapse of time.  If I heard you correctly you saw them entering?

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes.

MR MALAN: They were about 2  1/2  metres from you when they said "money and lie down"?

MR J DE CASTRO: That's right.

MR MALAN: What was the position of the till, or your position relating to the till at that time?

MR J DE CASTRO: My position - the supermarket, as you walk into the door there's three checkpoints there, the tills facing the inside of the supermarket.  The cashiers would be with their backs to the door.  At that time I was standing in between the tills, the cashiers, I was standing like this when I saw them coming in.

MR MALAN: Were you standing ... (intervention)

MR J DE CASTRO: So I was face to face as they came in, with them.

MR MALAN: So you were not standing behind a till?

MR J DE CASTRO: No not at all.

MR MALAN: Did you have to move to get behind the till in order to open it?

MR J DE CASTRO: No, the checkpoints were very nearby to one another so I got hold of the one on my right-hand side, I opened it up with my right hand and the one on my left-hand side I opened it up with my left hand.

MR MALAN: And you did that immediately?

MR J DE CASTRO: I did it immediately as soon as they said "money and lie down", I opened up the tills.

MR MALAN: You opened up the tills and if I heard your evidence correctly, then you went to lie down?

MR J DE CASTRO: That's right.

MR MALAN: How long did that take you?

MR J DE CASTRO: Well it was I'll say maybe a minute or so, maybe seconds, you can't judge.

MR MALAN: Alright and then you also talked about opening the third till which was, the key was not there?

MR J DE CASTRO: My wife tried to open up the third till.

MR MALAN: Were you already lying down when that happened?

MR J DE CASTRO: No I was still standing up.  I went and lied down as soon as they opened, they opened fire on the one till then I went and I lied down and that's when everybody started shooting.

MR MALAN: And did you wife also lie down then?

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes.

MR MALAN: And then they, did they first shoot at the till before the other shots went off?

MR J DE CASTRO: Yes.

MR MALAN: That's when you went to lie down?

MR J DE CASTRO: That's right.

MR MALAN: You weren't lying down when they shot at the till or were you already, can you recall that?

MR J DE CASTRO: Well it was in the process.  As soon as they opened fire on the one till then all the other guys opened fire on everybody and I was still busy getting under the one till.

MR MALAN: Right if one now talks about a number of applicants, but the picture that we have is that they had instructions to enter and immediately shoot indiscriminately and that they indeed did?

MR J DE CASTRO: No they didn't.

MR MALAN: Do you have a comment on that?

MR J DE CASTRO: Well as soon as they came in it was very clearly, they said "money, lie down", that is what they said.

MR MALAN: Did you get the impression or what was your impression, why were they shooting?