Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR MOOSA: Mr Coetzee's version on various aspects throws a different light on the versions of these applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: That has been put to them.

MR MOOSA: It has certainly been put to them but they have not had the opportunity to cross-examine and we haven't had the version of Mr Coetzee tested.  So it's not all the evidence we could possibly have to arrive at the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I would like to be clear on this Mr Moosa.  You are saying that Mr Coetzee has not been cross-examined by them, is that your complaint?

MR MOOSA: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: It isn't that you want to cross-examine him?

MR MOOSA: It isn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MOOSA: It is, of course, that we want to arrive at the truth and we want to have all the evidence put before the world that we could glean about the circumstances of the assassination of Sizwe Kondile.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  In other words you have questions to put to Mr Coetzee?

MR MOOSA: Sorry Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You have questions to put to Mr Coetzee?

MR MOOSA: That may be so.  I really think the people who do have questions to put would be the applicants.  What we as the family have is a situation where we don't really know what happened in those circumstances, but we would like to arrive at the truth.  We have waited some 16 years for that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you know to say we all want to arrive at the truth and so on I can understand the meaning of those words, your clients have read the evidence of Mr Coetzee in the previous proceedings, you were present as well ...(intervention)

MR MOOSA: And I cross-examined him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MOOSA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I don't want to go around calling witnesses for the sake of calling witnesses, do you understand?

MR MOOSA: I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: And I don't want to prolong proceedings unnecessarily as well.  Unless some very compelling reason is there we feel that we don't want to hear Mr Coetzee in respect of our decision in his application on this incident.

MR MOOSA: I am of course asking to call him as a witness in rather unusual circumstances and the submission is as follows.  I will put it to you so that you may consider it as a Committee.  That Mr Coetzee throws light on seeing a car in Jeffrey's Bay.  He talks about an actual discussion with Mr van Rensburg who is an applicant here.  He helps us in fixing a date because of the incident with the Audi. There is mention of both Ermelo and the car being found in Swaziland which has been hinted at by his counsel.  And there is the fact that he was present at Komatipoort where there were other policemen present, which is denied by the present applicants.
	The truth also is that on the last occasion this matter was adjourned by the Committee on Amnesty precisely so that we could have a situation where Mr Coetzee is present and available to give evidence, through the fault of the TRC I was not present on that occasion, but as it happens that is why this matter could in fact have been largely finished last year, or if we were still to hear Mr Coetzee it would have been finished now.  It's certainly no fault of the family.
	We are opposing the application of Mr Coetzee as these applicants, but the overriding thing we want to know is the right to the truth.  I may refer the Committee to an article by Juan Mendez, Accountability for Past Abusers, which appears in the Human Rights Quarterly in May 1997 and which talks about burgeoning international law rights and the overriding right to investigate, prosecute, punish the perpetrators but importantly to disclose to the victims, their families and society all that can be reliably established about the events and also corresponding right on the part of the victims which is a right to know the truth, and that's the basis of this application.

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee will take a short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee has considered the request made by Mr Moosa that Mr Dirk Coetzee be made available for questions that counsel may wish to put to him in connection with the application that we are concerned with just now.  Mr Coetzee you are requested to answer such questions as may be put to you by counsel who are appearing in this matter.

DIRK COETZEE: I understand Mr Chairman.

DIRK COETZEE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moosa.

MR MOOSA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Coetzee you are aware that the family of the late Sizwe Kondile is opposing the application for amnesty that you have made?

DIRK COETZEE: I am Mr Chairman.

MR MOOSA: And you have in fact given evidence in your application during November of 1996, is that right?

DIRK COETZEE: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MOOSA: You had told us at the time about how you came to know about Sizwe Kondile's detention, could you enlighten us again about your visit to Jeffrey's Bay, how did you get to Jeffrey's Bay?

DIRK COETZEE: Mr Chairman an Audi vehicle was stolen by myself and my colleagues on behalf of Mr van Rensburg, some activist's Audi and taken to Jeffrey's Bay eventually.

MR MOOSA: Is there a date that has been fixed around when the Audi vehicle was stolen Mr Coetzee?

DIRK COETZEE: Mr Chairman according to documents submitted at the Harms Commission it was the 13th of September 1981.

CHAIRPERSON: And is that your recollection as well or are you ...(intervention)

DIRK COETZEE: No not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: ...you rely entirely on what was said in the documents.

DIRK COETZEE: Entirely what was said in the documents Mr Chairman.

MR MOOSA: You told us about a discussion you had with Mr van Rensburg, could you tell us about that again?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.  After parking the Audi in Jeffrey's Bay police garages another garage door was opened where a Datsun vehicle was parked, a Stanza.  We then entered the police station building behind the charge office to a white single quarters.  It was only as far as I can remember Mr Nick van Rensburg and myself that entered the building, where at the end of the passage there was a single quarter room, and when the door was opened there were two persons, black persons, sitting on a - each one on a bed.  The one handcuffed to the bed, who later became known to me as Sizwe Kondile.  Mr van Rensburg just enquired whether everything was well, and we left.  It took a few seconds, if it was a minute it would have been long.

MR MOOSA: There was mention about a second Biko case in your evidence previously, could you tell us about that?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.  According to Mr van Rensburg this person, this detainee, Sizwe Kondile, dived through a window with his hands handcuffed behind his back was being interrogated to escape from his interrogators and landed on his head.  His behaviour apparently became peculiar and it was decided that a plan should be made with him before they sit with a second Biko case.

JUDGE PILLAY: Is that what was told to you?

MR MOOSA: That's correct, by Mr van Rensburg.

JUDGE PILLAY: By who?

DIRK COETZEE: By Mr van Rensburg Mr Chairman.

MR MOOSA: For clarity's sake, when you talk about a plan being made with him, what do you mean?

DIRK COETZEE: Well "a plan being made" in our language means "killing", he'll have to be eliminated.

MR MOOSA: At that stage were you to play any part in the killing?

DIRK COETZEE: Yes Mr Chairman it was specifically discussed that night that Mr Kondile will be brought up to the area of Komatipoort and that his car will be taken through to Swaziland and parked in front of the Holiday Inn for it to give the impression that he has fled the country and left for exile.  After which we would have dealt with the body in no other way than by giving him knock-out drops that I would have obtained from General Neethling, and after which he will be shot and put on a pyre of tyre and wood and burnt to ashes.