Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

DR RANDERA: I am going to work from the statement you gave to the TRC, because there are too many statements.  I am going to work from that one.  You say in your statement to us that the first time you went to Mrs Mandela's house, was sometime in December 1988?
 Now I know that it is very difficult to remember exact dates, but December is a very important time.  The one thing everybody remembers is Christmas, am I right or wrong?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, we always remember December.

DR RANDERA: Okay, now was it before Christmas that you went to Mrs Mandela's house or after Christmas that you went to Mrs Mandela's house?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I am not in a position to say whether it was before or after Christmas.

DR RANDERA: But you are sure it was in December?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: That is why I am explaining that.

DR RANDERA: Okay, let me move on.  Mr Dlamini, again in your statement to the TRC, you say you met Mr Richardson and Mr Swala in 1987 already?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No.

DR RANDERA: Okay, let me ask anyway seeing that - have you ever worked for the police yourself, have you ever been an informer or have you worked for the police?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, I have never been an informer, police informer.

DR RANDERA: Okay, my last question and I want to take you to the day that you went and killed Dr Asvat.  Now, I know the area where the surgery is.  If I remember that area behind the surgery, at that time, it was mainly open veld.  On the other side is old Potchefstroom road and very close by is a police station.
 What I am trying to understand is that you are going to this house, you are wanting to kill this man knowing full well that the area is not somewhere you can just disappear into, you don't have a car when you go to the house.  A few questions I want you to answer.  One is have you killed people before?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, I had never killed anyone before.

DR RANDERA: Number 2, given all the confusing statements you have made, is it possible that somebody else said they are going to pay you, either another political organisation or some other grouping to kill Dr Asvat?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Mr Chairman, I have now since read the statement we were given this morning.  May I just put one aspect of that statement to the witness?

CHAIRPERSON: Please go ahead.

MR SEMENYA: The statement which you purportedly made on the same day of your arrest reads as follows.  It is in Afrikaans I will try to translate it.  Johannes knows my reputation as a man who can shoot very well with a firearm.
 He heard from other people that I was very much involved in tribal wars in Mahlabatini.

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: That is not true.

MR SEMENYA: Where would the police on the day of your arrest get this information from?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: They would have to explain that.

MR SEMENYA: Who?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I am talking about the police.  There are many things that are in that statement like Johannes that I bear no knowledge of.

MR SEMENYA: No further questions, thank you.

MR SEMENYA: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Thulani Dlamini.  Thank you very much for appearing before the Commission.  You have had a lot of questions.  I hope you are feeling all right and we ask you now to stand down.  Thank you very much.

<UNKNOWN>: .

CHAIRPERSON: We will now adjourn for a very short tea break.  Could we be back by ten past eleven thank you.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: The following witness is Mr Gift Ntombeni.

MR UNTERHALTER: Chairperson, I could probably lead this witness if it is necessary?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Unterhalter.  Mr Ntombeni, thank you for coming.  I think it will be advisable to use the earphones.  Can you hear my voice coming through?
 I must apologise to you on behalf of the Commission for keeping you waiting for so long.  I am sorry about that.  I know it is not easy to wait your turn, but we have had a lot of other people that we had to listen to as well.

GIFT NTOMBENI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Unterhalter?

MR UNTERHALTER: Mr Ntombeni.

CHAIRPERSON: Please I am so sorry, if you wouldn't mind going again and stating your name.

MR UNTERHALTER: It is David Unterhalter, I have been asked by the Commission to lead this witness' evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we have order so that we can hear the leading of evidence and the replies of the witness, thank you.

MR UNTERHALTER: Mr Ntombeni, you were born in 1972, is that correct?

GIFT NTOMBENI: That is correct.

MR UNTERHALTER: And in 1988 you were 16 years old, is that correct?

GIFT NTOMBENI: That is correct.

MR UNTERHALTER: Could you tell the Commission in 1987 of your involvement with the formation of the Mandela Football Club?

GIFT NTOMBENI: There was a conflict within the youth league and Mama Winnie came to intervene and create some peace within the youth league.  We went to her place and held this meeting.  We came to an agreement that we should create peace.
 She invited us to stay over at her place.  She said we were welcome to stay at her place.  There was Bonawege, but he is now late.  Bonawege came with a plan that instead of just loitering around the streets, we should form a football club so as to keep ourselves busy and we told him that we were going to approach Mama with that idea that we wanted to open up a football club.
 We met Nomzamo and Nomzamo told us she was going to help in any manner that she could, that is how the Mandela Football Club was formed.  We started playing soccer and we were training, we got ourselves a coach, Jerry Richardson and he came to coach us.
 The first club that we played with was the Brothers Football Club and we went on to play with the Sawelo Club.

MR UNTERHALTER: Now, was the club then formed with the blessing of Mrs Mandela?

GIFT NTOMBENI: That is correct.

MR UNTERHALTER: But the club did not only play football.  Could you tell us what they club did in respect of disciplining members of the community?

GIFT NTOMBENI: We used to assault the people in that yard and Zinzi was present as well as Nomzamo.  At times she wasn't there, she had gone to school and we would go out looking for the culprits and assault them.

MR UNTERHALTER: Who were these culprits that you are referring to and what had they done?

GIFT NTOMBENI: The first one was Mkosana.  Mkosana was arrested with the number plates of the cars that were there and we asked him as to where he got this number plates of the cars.  He explained that he used to take number plates, it was his hobby, and he was suspected of being an impimpi.   He couldn't just go around writing the car plates of each and every car.  That is how he got to be assaulted.

MR UNTERHALTER: And am I correct in saying that the form of discipline was assault?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, that is correct, we assaulted these people and we would torture some and burn their feet.  Some we would inscribe or write them using some plastic utensils.  It is not clear this aspect, that is how we tortured them.
 Like the other two, we inscribed ANC.  Zinzi was the first one to inscribe the ANC letters on the other one's chest as well as the back.  After assaulting them, we would chase them out of the yard.

MR UNTERHALTER: At this time, did Mrs Mandela know of these assaults that you were carrying out with members of the football club?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, she knew very well.

MR UNTERHALTER: Did she participate in any of these assaults?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, I could say that she used to take part because she is the one who usually starts the assault, then we would all follow.

MR UNTERHALTER: Am I correct in saying that you left the football club as a member, in about January 1988?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, that is correct.

MR UNTERHALTER: And under what circumstances did you leave the club?