Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-05

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but before that, before you had got to the stage of Kgoele, as I understood your evidence, you had discussion with General Nyanda?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Yes he did discuss the concept with me.

CHAIRPERSON: Exactly, that is what you're being asked about now.  Who was the first person to suggest it because I can understand a commander saying it is time we did something drastic, it is time we took steps against them and one of the other people saying well what about attacking this place or that place and that is what Mr Wagner is trying to find out, whose idea was it.  Not that you should continue to struggle against the apartheid forces, but that you should conduct this particular operation?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: It was the commander's concept, Mr Nyanda.

MR WAGNER: Did General Nyanda say specifically that the attack should be launched at the Magistrate's Court.  Did he suggest that in so much detail.  Is it his idea in other words that a small bomb should be placed outside the Magistrate's Court as well as a bigger bomb to lure the police there and to kill the police there at the Magistrate's Court in Johannesburg, was it all the idea of General Nyanda?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I think General Nyanda was not working in isolation.  If he's got an idea we were there as his staff to say whether he's correct also, but that is his idea.  And anyway like I said in any military situation a concept, it is the commander's concept, you cannot divorce that in fact from the commander.

MR WAGNER: Mr Chairman I still don't know whose idea it was but I'll leave it here.  The witness doesn't seem to understand or he's not prepared to answer the questions.

MR SANDI: Maybe you can put it this way Mr Wagner.  In coming up with the idea that this particular target should be attacked, did Mr Nyanda give the specifics how it should be planned, how people should go about attacking this place or did he only go as far as making the suggestion that this target should be attacked.  How far did he go?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: He came up with the idea and he outlined his concept but now when it comes to the nitty gritty, I think it will be unfair (indistinct) the operation, not even to Nyanda himself that he can tell a person to identify a particular area but to go to particular point and say do the following, he discussed that with (indistinct) anyway and I was not party to that when he discussed the concept (indistinct) with Mr Kgoele.

MR WAGNER: So did you and Mr Nyanda merely discuss in principle that there should be some kind of operation, some attack within the Republic of South Africa and that a man by the name of Kgoele would be tasked and it was left for his discretion as to how the operation should be carried out?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I said I was not involved in the briefing so I wouldn't know.  Mr Nyanda came up with the concept, like I said.

MR WAGNER: Did you have any discussion with Mr Kgoele regarding this operation?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Yes of course but that no, only as far as now giving him, facilitating because you know the material or the explosives that he got and in training him in the using of the remote controls.

MR WAGNER: So at the time of that discussion with Mr Kgoele were you aware that he would be coming to the Republic to, in the first instance detonate a small bomb and when the police were at the scene, detonate a much bigger bomb in order to kill them?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Yes.

MR WAGNER: Was the idea Mr Shoke that Mr Kgoele should come to the Republic of South Africa by his own or was he supposed to be part of a group of ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want to interrupt you unnecessarily, but I understand the witnesses evidence that Kgoele was based in the Republic, that he paid visits to Swaziland, but that he was in the Republic, is that what you've told us?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Yes that's what I said.

MR WAGNER: Was Kgoele also a commander in some sense, did he have other individuals under his command that he could call upon to assist him?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: That was not in my interest to know because it will have been dangerous, too much knowledge in the underground is too dangerous.

MR SANDI: You mean to - sorry Mr Wagner - you mean to say that it was not necessary for you to know who Mr Kgoele was working with?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Who Mr Kgoele was working with, yes.

MR SANDI: Would that have been on a need-to, what has commonly been referred to as a need-to-know basis?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Yes.

MR WAGNER: Mr Kgoele, was he what we may call an explosives expert and did he have a lot of experience in this specific field of explosives?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: He had the necessary knowledge to enable him to execute his tasks.

MR WAGNER: Can I take that as a yes?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: An expert is something different.  I wouldn't like you to take it as a yes, yet there is thorough knowledge to allow him to execute his tasks.  You question is, is he an expert and by that word an expert, you mean something different, (indistinct), definitely he was not a boffin.

MR WAGNER: Mr Shoke are you, do you have knowledge of explosives and can you be seen as an experienced, if not an expert in explosives?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I've got a fair knowledge to allow me to do what I'm capable of doing with explosives.

MR WAGNER: And did you train Mr Kgoele as to how he should conduct this specific operation?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Yes.

MR WAGNER: Mr Shoke what did this training entail?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I taught him how to operate, like I said earlier on, remote gadgets of differences in fact and how to place explosives.

MR WAGNER: Did you help him with physical practice or what did this training entail.  Was it merely a verbal training session.  What did this entail?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: It was a layman's training.

MR WAGNER: But if I understand you correctly now, wasn't there a great risk to send someone into the republic of South Africa on an operation like this merely based on a layman's training?  To me that seems to have been highly risky.  What do you say to that?

MR SANDI: Sorry Mr Shoke - a risk to who Mr Wagner, a risk to who?

MR WAGNER: Mr Chairman I'll try and rephrase.  What we know now is that Mr Kgoele came to this country with a very powerful explosive device to be exploded in the midst of a big city.  I put it to you that to send someone on a mission like this with only a layman's training is of a high risk, if not highly irresponsible.  What do you say to that?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I think I said to you earlier on that he had been through thorough training to enable him to execute these tasks and that's that and I think that you are fully aware Mr Wagner by now that many people who were internally trained did execute operations and some were caught and sentenced (indistinct) and so forth, so as far as I'm concerned, Mr Kgoele had the necessary training to enable him to do his work.

CHAIRPERSON: It was put to you that he came to South Africa with a large supply of explosives, where was the dead letter box that he was to collect the explosives from?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: It was somewhere in Soweto, I gave him sketch and I cannot say exactly where it was but I think when he comes he will explain that.

CHAIRPERSON: Somewhere where?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Somewhere in Soweto.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was not stuff that he brought in from outside the country is the point I'm making, he collected it here?

MR WAGNER: So if he is saying that the explosives were supplied by you is he lying?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: He's not lying.  I said I gave him a sketch of a dead letter box in my earlier presentation.