Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-11

MNR VAN ZYL: Meneer die Voorsitter, mnr Van Zyl vir die rekord.  Na aanleiding van u versoek verlede week of Vrydag ten aansien van of die voorstel dat ons ons posisie met betrekking tot kruis ... (tussenkoms deur tolk) ... whether we were going to - regarding our position for the cross-examination of witnesses, we considered over the week-end and we still have the same opinion - same view - and we will not participate in the proceedings regarding the cross-examination of witnesses.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anybody else who wishes to put further questions to Mr Mkhize?  Any re-examination, Mr Macadam?

MR MACADAM: Just very briefly, Mr Chairperson, on one aspect that may or may not be important.  Mr Mkhize, you said that in 1989 you then went through the normal police training at the KwaZulu College at Ulundi and became a fully-fledged member of the KwaZulu Police.  Firstly, were other members of the group that had trained with you in the Caprivi put through the same course as you?

WITNESS:   You mean those who were in Caprivi?

MR MACADAM: That's correct.  Were any of them also put through the Police College in the same manner as you went through?

WITNESS:   Yes, there were, but not all of them.  Not all the

MR MACADAM: /Caprivians, but

MR MACADAM: 1A Caprivians, but some of them went through the course.

MR MACADAM: Can you estimate approximately how many of them went through the course?  Just a rough estimate, if you can recall.

WITNESS:   I think there were about 40 of them.  I'm not certain about this figure.  It's just a hypothetical figure.

MR WILLS: My interpretation was unclear.  Was that 14 or 40?

CHAIRPERSON: 40.

WITNESS:   40.

MR MACADAM: Were you and these other plus/minus 40 people taken aside, given any specialised training on its own during the training period at Ulundi itself?

WITNESS:   No, we all received a uniform training with others who were not coming from Caprivi.

MR MACADAM: Once that training had been concluded were the persons who had been trained in the Caprivi formed into a special unit, for example like a reaction force or task force?

WITNESS:   No, it wasn't like that.  We were deployed in various police stations and it was not done according to who we were, but whatever was done it was just done to all of us.

MR MACADAM: I have no further questions, Mr Chairperson.

MR MACADAM: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MACADAM

MR DLAMINI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, just one question for clarification.  Mr Mkhize, sorry to take you back.  There was a time when you were instructed to attack a certain member of COSATU, but his car was driven by a different person on that day.  Can you - did you know the names of the people who were inside?  You said nobody died, but they were injured and also if you know how seriously they were injured, just for record purposes.

MR DLAMINI: /---  Your Honour,

MR DLAMINI: 1A

WITNESS:   Your Honour, I don't know how much they were injured.  That was information that I gathered after the incident.  Now I do not know the extent of the injury and also how many of them.  I don't have that information.

MR DLAMINI: You don't know their names either?

WITNESS:   No, I did not know their names.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhize, just briefly, in your various attacks which you have testified that you carried out, on all occasions did you use Eastern Bloc weapons or were there occasions where you used R1s or G3s or South African issue weapons?

WITNESS:   No, Your Honour, I wasn't using only Eastern Bloc weapons.  It would depend what guns we had in our possession.  We had a number of weapons - guns - in a trunk.  Now, we would take whatever we got first, and use them.  Even the South African-made ones we used as well to carry out the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was the trunk kept?

WITNESS:   It was kept at Israel Hlongwane and Romeo Mbambo's house at J2 section in Esikhaweni.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the origin of those weapons?  Where did they come from?  Not which country of origin, but who put them at Mr Mbambo's house or Mr Hlongwane's house?

WITNESS:  Some were brought by myself and from the instructions of Captain Langeni that I should go and get them from Thomas in Port Durnford, and some were being used by the boys.  I refer to Nhlankanipho Matenjwa, who were the ones who were attacking or fighting direct with the ANC before our group, but we gathered all those weapons and guns and were administered by Romeo Mbambo.  And some, like hand grenades, were brought by B B Biyela and those were home-

CHAIRPERSON: /made - made by

CHAIRPERSON: 1A made - made by TNT.  And there were some that I went to fetch from Port Durnford and those were not home-made ones, but were proper ones.

CHAIRPERSON: And in the various attacks which you took part in, whose vehicle or vehicles did you use?

WITNESS:   We used a Ford Meteor at times - B B, the Mayor's car.

CHAIRPERSON: The translation was a bit slow.  You said, I think I followed your Zulu, that the Ford Meteor belonged to the Mayor of Esikhaweni, B B Biyela?  Is that correct?

WITNESS:  It is Mr B B Biyela.  B B are the initials.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say that he was the Mayor - Mayor of what?

WITNESS:   Yes, a Mayor at Richards Bay.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't he the Mayor of Richards Bay?

WITNESS:   Yes, he is still a Mayor and then he was an Esikhaweni Mayor only.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the car used with his consent?  Did he know that it was being used by you for these unlawful actions?

WITNESS:  Yes, he knew that very well.

CHAIRPERSON: What other cars did you use?

WITNESS:   Then there was one other car, a Mitsubishi, a kombi.  That would be driven by Cele, who was employed as a driver in Ulundi.  If I'm not mistaken, Cele was employed in the Department of the Chief Minister and would bring the car to us and also tell us that he was been sent by Mr M Z Khumalo to bring the car so we may work easier.  Truly speaking, we used to complain about vehicles.  That we would be given instructions, not vehicles.  Now they ended up bringing cars, just like that Mitsubishi which was brought to us.  And one other car was the one that I explained or referred to when I was giving evidence, when Chief Minya said we would go and fetch it from Robert Mzimela.  That was the Opel Monza, white in colour.  Those were such cars we used

CHAIRPERSON: /to carry out

CHAIRPERSON: 1A to carry out our operations.  And there was one other attack where we used a BMW car which belonged to Romeo's friend, but he did not know that we were using his car to carry out an attack and I don't even think he got to know eventually.

MR LAX: Could I just clarify something?  You said that Mr Cele was a driver in what department?  Couldn't catch that on the translation, sorry.

WITNESS:   I said, if I remember well, he used to be a driver of Chief Minister's Department, but I want to say that I am not certain about what I've just said, as to which department he belonged to, but he was employed as a driver in Ulundi.  That much I know.

CHAIRPERSON: So the Opel Monza, which you said was supplied by Mr Mzimela, is that Mr Robert Mzimela, who was then the - I think he was a speaker of the Legislative Assembly was he?  Or was he a secretary of the Legislative Assembly?

WITNESS:   Yes, he was a secretary but not a speaker.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that his car or what car was that?

WITNESS:   It was not his car, it was a Government car, State car, but I don't know in which department it belonged - the car, but I'm certain that it was a State car, because I was given all the relevant documents, even the petrol documents and order books as well, and I used to sign each time I filled up the tank.  Now I know that it was a State car.