Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-22

ADV SIGODI: If it was a political instruction, I mean it was common in those days, if a particular political group did something it would account for it and say: "We were responsible for that", why was it necessary for you to hide this as if it was just an ordinary crime and not a political activity?  Why wasn't the AWB interested in making it publicly known that this was an AWB action?

DEON MARTIN: My perception was that General Japie Oelofse would contact the media the following morning and tell them that the AWB was involved and would say that the AWB was involved in this area.

ADV SIGODI: But then why was it necessary for you to want to destroy the evidence, the taking of the shells and the burning of the motor vehicle?

DEON MARTIN: So the finger could not be pointed the commando, that was our objective.  They had to know that the AWB was involved but not us as a group.

ADV SIGODI: Did the AWB take responsibility for that massacre?

DEON MARTIN: Afterwards, after we were sent to prison and Eugene Terreblanche told us that we were freedom fighters, "we see you as freedom fighters", and that is the time when hey took responsibility for the act.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Martin, you've just mentioned - let me put it this way, the previous evening you removed all the shells but now you mention that the AWB the following day would take responsibility for the act,  I cannot reconcile the two.

DEON MARTIN: The AWB as a whole would accept responsibility for this.

CHAIRPERSON: But then the police would come to you and say you accept responsibility, you know who did this?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, but that was a long time afterwards that the police came to us.

CHAIRPERSON: That is my problem, you attempt to erase evidence and then a few days afterwards the AWB accepts responsibility for the act and then the police came to the AWB and told them: "You accept responsibility, so you know who did it"?

DEON MARTIN: The AWB in that time did not take responsibility, it was much later.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought, upon a question from my colleague that you mentioned that you would have expected that the AWB openly accepted responsibility for the act.

DEON MARTIN: Yes, I expected that but it never happened.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you expect this and on the other hand you do everything in your power to prevent that the police and the people of South Africa know who did this?

DEON MARTIN: The press release would have been released and it would say that it was the AWB that was responsible, the political crime.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MALAN: Mr Martin, let me kick off at the same point.  You are sitting in a bath and you have pain, your wife tells you there is a call and you give an instruction that she call the men and you go out to Uncle Harry's, you pick up some people along the way, you drive back to another house to collect vehicles, you go to your own house, you have a drink, you drive out and you discuss with Mr Phil Kloppers the possibility of targets, you suggest a squatter camp and on your way home it was told to you - according your evidence, that your instruction was to set up a roadblock.

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MR MALAN: You were already in the car when you asked this question on your way home?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, that's right.

MR MALAN: Why did you go back home?

DEON MARTIN: The place where we met again was outside of the town.

MR MALAN: Would you try to explain it to me because the first meeting place was Harry's Roadside Cafe, you were all together, you all drive from there to a second place, Mr Diedericks or Mr Badenhorst's house and there you meet again?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MR MALAN: All of you?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MR MALAN: You did not discuss the target?

DEON MARTIN: Not yet.

MR MALAN: All of you leave from there to your house.

DEON MARTIN: First to Andre Visser's house and then to my house.

MR MALAN: Why every time do you go to another place and as yet you still have no instruction or a target, can you explain that to us?

DEON MARTIN: We went to Mr Visser's house to have a drink.

MR MALAN: You are commanded and you were that the revolution would start, that you know already at Harry's Roadside Cafe but first you go and have a drink?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MR MALAN: And you move to four different points before you go into action.

DEON MARTIN: It's three separate places, Badenhorst's house, Visser's house and ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: Harry's Roadside Cafe was the first place you moved to?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, but that's a meeting place, it's a general meeting place.  ...[Transcriber's own translation]

MR MALAN: But you are already all there, then you move to three other points.

DEON MARTIN: Yes.

MR MALAN: Did you at any stage discuss any of the action or the nature of the revolution.

DEON MARTIN: What we discussed, at the meeting place we did not discuss anything like that but it was when we were driving from Andre Visser's house, it was a patrol through the area to ensure that it was safe and then we went to my place and this is where Phil Kloppers told me that need to set up a roadblock.

MR MALAN: And you were already on your way home when he made this suggestion?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MR MALAN: It was not decided on before the time?

DEON MARTIN: No, I made the suggestion to attack or to search a squatter camp and then he said: "The instruction was to set up a roadblock".

MR MALAN: He mentions this the first time when you were in the car with him on your way to your house?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MR MALAN: Never before was anybody told of this instruction in spite of the fact that at three different places you met?

DEON MARTIN: I don't know if he told anybody else but that was the first time he told me, on my way home from Visser's home.

MR MALAN: At the other points Mr Martin, were all of you not present there at the same time?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, we were all present but one had to change the number plates.

MR MALAN: Now in these loose meeting before you acted, and you tell us with great conviction that you were under the impression that General Oelofse would release a press statement the following day, why do you say this?

DEON MARTIN: The fact that the revolution would start nationwide and the AWB was involved with these actions, that is why I accepted that he would release this statement.

MR MALAN: If it was a nationwide act, why would General Oelofse release the statement, why not Eugene Terreblanche?

DEON MARTIN: I just assumed it was General Oelofse.

MR MALAN: Did you expect a nationwide action or did you expect that he was going to release a press statement to take responsibility for the act?

DEON MARTIN: I believed it was going to be a nationwide action because we had prepared and we warned and we were told to prepare for this.

MR MALAN: Mr Martin, you said that you were in the South African Police Service from '81 to '85.

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MR MALAN: Your advocate asked you what was your tasks there and you said
"My task was to act against the ANC/SACP Alliance"
Which division of the police were you involved with?

DEON MARTIN: At the Detective Branch, I was at Koevoet and that's where I ended my service.

MR MALAN: And the Detective Branch, were the operations also against the SACP/ANC Alliance?

DEON MARTIN: When we received information yes.

MR MALAN: Were you only used in political matters?  What was the other nature of your function in the Police Service?

DEON MARTIN: Investigation of crime.

MR MALAN: You've mentioned secret meetings at the Embassy Hotel where you say you don't know who was present but then you say at a later stage
"Hartzenberg and Viljoen were there"

DEON MARTIN: That is what I heard.

MR MALAN: Where did you hear this from?

DEON MARTIN: From Phil Kloppers.  They were the escort for the General to the secret place.