Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-01-25

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, prior to the attack on Boipatong were you ever consulted by Mr Mkhize or Damara to enquire as to what was to be done to the complaints by the residents of the hostel that they're being attacked?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Most of the time as paid leader I would get reports about people who were dying.  I used to hear concerns such as the fact that they are dying but nothing was being done.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, were you ever consulted by any of the other leaders such as Xongo and Mkhize to discuss what was to be done about these complaints by the residents of the hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: They did not come to me directly but yes, generally I used to hear that when we were at the arena.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay and you did not discuss with them at any stage that there should be an attack on Boipatong?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay and you yourself did not go to Boipatong?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, you did not take part in the burning of the goods that had been stolen from Boipatong?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not associate yourself in any manner with the attack on Boipatong either before or after?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR STRYDOM: During the period of the attack where were you working?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I was assigned to the housing officer position at Kwamadala.

MR STRYDOM: Do you work right in the hostel or did you go to another place to do your daily job?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I was dealing with the hostel only.

MR STRYDOM: Yes but the question is did you have an office in Kwamadala Hostel or did you go to another office?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the purpose - sorry Mr Strydom - was the purpose of applying for amnesty explained to you?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What was explained to you?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Amnesty is granted to people who participated in the death of people in political violence.  People who own up to their deeds.

CHAIRPERSON: You yourself did not take part in the killing in Boipatong?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and therefore there is nothing to admit before this Committee?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I am telling the truth, I did not participate, I was one person who was not trusted by the residents because I was always in touch with Iscor management.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what I'm asking from you is there is nothing that you could admit before this Committee as having done in regard to the massacre in Boipatong because you didn't take part in that massacre?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct but I have a request.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: My first request is that I am grown up.  People died even though IFP members who were residents at Kwamadala, such people died as well but the Boipatong incident is very difficult.  It's very difficult always when people die on both sides of the line.  Unfortunately the judge did not ask me, myself and my children and those that I know was sentenced, for example myself, I was sentenced to 18 years because of my ugly look.  I am ugly by nature, the judge did not talk to me, he did not ask me any questions, he merely looked at me and decided that I should be sentenced.  I'm therefore asking the Committee to have pity on me and to solve this problem.  I am still alive today.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand what you've said.  The only reason why I'm asking you these questions is so as to make sure that you understand fully what powers this Committee has.  You've said it yourself that this - you are here - I beg your pardon, that amnesty is granted to persons who have committed political acts of violence and which they also admit having committed and you've told us that you yourself did not commit any act of violence in Boipatong, that's why I am asking you that if that is the case, what is it that this Committee - what is it that you want this Committee to do?  We do not have the power to sit in judgement over the decision of the trial court.  It is only the appeal court which can undo what the trial court did.  Do you understand that?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will nevertheless listen to your evidence but all I wanted to find out is what is it that you wanted us to grant you amnesty for?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Thank you very much Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand my explanation?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Thank you Mr Strydom.

MR STRYDOM: During the trial you've been implicated by Mr Bajosi and Mr Malloy.  Were they telling the truth or not?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That's a mistake.

MR STRYDOM: Now I was asking about your work.  Just to get it clear again did you go out of the hostel to go and work?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I was always in the office.

MR STRYDOM: Who was the person in control of meetings in the hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: There was a Committee, an IFP Committee, the chairperson of which was the deceased Tembikosi Khumalo and there was also this other youth committee which was led by Mr Qambelani who is also an applicant here, he was chairperson of that committee and because of people's ignorance, they used to refer to us as a committee.  There were five of us, all of us employed and working at the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be what was called the hostel management committee?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that what people also referred to as the steering committee?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: There was no steering committee, because of peoples lack of English they would use all these sorts of words.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but I know that Shoyisa for example was said to have been one of the members of the steering committee so in fact he was a member of the Hostel Management Committee?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: My next question is related to meetings.  Was permission needed for each and every meeting to be held at the hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.  I am the one who was responsible for issuing out permissions looking at the time during which the meeting would be held and I would issue out such a permit.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, did he keep record of meetings which was held?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Where did you keep these records?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I used to have a meetings book that used to cover or recall or should I say register all events of the day.

MR STRYDOM: Now was it possible that a meeting could be convened without your knowledge, convened and held without your knowledge?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That was not easy.

MR STRYDOM: Now the day of the attack was the 17th June 1992.  As far as your knowledge goes was there a meeting on the Sunday before the Wednesday of the attack, that would be the 14th June 1992?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No I do not remember it that way.

MR STRYDOM: If Mr Themba Khosa would come to the hostel to address a meeting would you know about that?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I was supposed to know that.

MR STRYDOM: And as far as your knowledge goes was he there on the Sunday before the attack?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I did not see him.

MR STRYDOM: Some of the other applicants spoke and referred to a meeting that was held approximately one week before the attack and the date that was given was the 10th June 1992, are you aware of that meeting?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No I do not remember that meeting.

MR STRYDOM: Could that meeting have taken place without your knowledge whilst you were at your work or what?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that is possible.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a policeman by the name of Peens?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No I only saw him for the first time on Friday.

MR STRYDOM: And the other policeman, Greeff with his nickname Rooikop?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I don't know him as well.