Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR STANDER: I do not understand this. Why would a person let's say that in two occasions this person does not want to co-operate, but for arguments sake at the third stage when he's asked again he co-operates.  Can you explain this to us?  Or is there something else that you did in order to force him to give you those answers?

MR MMELESI: We did not force a person to explain to us what happened. For the second time when we interrogate he would he would answer those questions well, not that we forced him or her.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm afraid I don't understand why somebody who has indicated that they do not want to answer questions, would suddenly decide to answer the questions well.

MR MMELESI: It will depend on how he is being interrogated.  Let me explain this way.  We'd ask you questions and then you don't answer the questions, later, if you don't understand, we'd call you for a second time, then we'd take another person.
	Then again you'd be asked questions and be told that the answers that we were waiting for for these questions were like this, not that we'd forced that person.

MR STANDER: I still do not understand and I do not think the Committee understands. What happened in the meantime to change that persons mind about answering the questions. Because why in the first place, would he not want to answer? And then on a later occasion when he is called in again then he answers to all your questions.

MR MMELESI: There's nothing we did to that person.  I explained that if a person does not want to answer the questions, we did not force him or her or assault him, we'd leave her or him and take another person, then later would call him or her back without been assaulted, then he would answer those questions.

MR STANDER: The Chairman has also asked you and I've asked you for the third time. What led to the fact that this person now replied to your questions or can you not reply to that?

MR MMELESI: I explained Sir, that we did not force a person or maybe we did not assault that person so that he should answer those questions, it did not work like that.  That person would explained us well with how its being assaulted.

MR STANDER: What is the reason for that, do you know or don't you?

MR MMELESI: No Sir, I did not know, but there was no person who would be able to explain, those people explained what happened.

MR STANDER: Do you think there's a possibility that such a person saw what had happened to the others and as a result of the fact that he saw what had happened to the others who did not co-operate who did not co-operate, that he then decided to give some answers? Is that not possibly what could have happened?

MR MMELESI: I want you to explain to me, to say, when you say maybe he saw what happened to other people in which way can you explain to me?

MR STANDER: What I am trying to say is that he saw how the others were assaulted because they did not want to co-operate and that is why at the end of the day, he then gave his or her answers.

MR STANDER: I explained Sir, that no person was assaulted in my presence or the one I saw being assaulted. Those people answered to those questions well without being forced.

MR STANDER: And did you see the rest of the group there that day as well?

MR MMELESI: You mean you mean in the office?  Yes, I did.

MR STANDER: Was there anyone who gave you an indication as that they had been assaulted?

MR MMELESI: No, Sir.

MR STANDER: Have you see - did you see the full group there on another occasion?

MR MMELESI: Yes, I did the time when they were just about to be taken to where they were going to be detained.

MR STANDER: Do you regard frog jumps as part of abuse of the witnesses or don't you?

MR MMELESI: I did not see people doing frog jumps the way you - the ones you telling me about.

MR STANDER: Did you have any shock apparatus?

MR MMELESI: No Sir, we didn't have those things.

MR STANDER: And a black bag which was sometimes used to cover peoples eyes or their heads?

MR MMELESI: No Sir, I didn't see something like that.

MR STANDER: And the tyre?

MR MMELESI: I said that I did not see those kinds of assortments, I did not see them.

MR STANDER: Do you know a Oupa Makubalo?

MR MMELESI: Yes, I know him.

MR STANDER: Was he also part of the group that was there that had to be interrogated?

MR MMELESI: Oupa was present in that group. But where I took part, I did not take part in Oupa's  interrogation.

MR STANDER: Were you involved when he had to be taken to a doctor?

MR MMELESI: If I remember, no.  I dispute that.

MR STANDER: It doesn't sound as if you're being sure of the ...[indistinct]

MR MMELESI: I said I was not present then.

MR STANDER: Was he ever taken to a doctor?

MR MMELESI: I said I was not present and again I don't remember.

MR STANDER: ...[inaudible]

MR MMELESI: No, Sir.

MR STANDER: What was his condition the condition on the second or the third day after you'd arrested these people?

MR MMELESI: We did not detain this group. The time when I arrived with Sergeant Du Plessis in the office after lunch, I learnt there were people who were brought here who tried to skip the country and they were arrested in Ladybrand and they were brought to our offices.

MR STANDER: The question that I asked was: did you see Oupa Makubalo on the second or the third day after he was arrested, did you see him, again?

MR MMELESI: I explained that some days I was helping with the investigation and others days we were living out for our normal duty. Myself and Mr Du Plessis would leave the whole day and if I'm present I'd help there if it is necessary. But ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Could you tell us whether you helped on the second day and whether you helped with the interrogation on the third day after they'd been arrested.

MR MMELESI: That is why I said I don't remember later as whethere I did.  At times, some days we'd leave but if I'm around I'd be able to help with the the interrogation.   At times I'd be there, at times I'd not be there.   As whether it was the second day or the third day, I do not remember.

MR STANDER: Did you see him again, Oupa Makubalo, after the first day?

MR MMELESI: I explained that I do not remember as to whether it is the second or the third day because usually would leave together with Mr Du Plessis. I'm not sure as to whether I was in the office or not.

MR STANDER: Did you not see him at all? That is the simple question.

MR MMELESI: I say I don't know as to whether the second day I was in the office or I was not in the office.

MR STANDER: I would like to put it to you Sir, that indeed after the second or third day you took Mr Oupa Makubalo to the doctor because of the fact that he had been assaulted to such an extent that his life was actually in danger at that stage.  Do you deny that or not?

MR MMESELI: I dispute that.  As I explained that on the first day I saw Oupa Makubalo in the office.  On second day as whether I was in office or not and again on the third day I do not know as whether I'm in the office or not but I I saw him in the office.  But its either on the second day or the third day I was in the office, I'm not sure. That's the way I have explained.

CHAIRPERSON: Have these records been made available?

MR STANDER: Mr Chair, I am doing my best to get hold of them but I have not been able to do so.  I will see if I could do so soon and place this before the Commission.