Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-20

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  But now let us assume that you succeeded in getting rid of a number of people working for the Archbishop, did you hope that that would have deterred the Archbishop from calling for sanctions against South Africa, from supporting the cause of the United Democratic Front, which primarily was a cause of the rest of the establishment of democracy in the country?  And even if you were correct in your suspicions that the Archbishop was a member of the ANC, which I'm sure he would have denied, did you think that he was going to give up his lifelong struggle for democracy in South Africa by the means which he chose to employ, just because you managed by some primitive superstitious way which you were not sure whether it would work or not, to stop the committed Archbishop from doing what he had been doing from his days as a student?  Is that what you are telling the Committee?

EDWARD WEBB: We hoped that it would work, that his labourers would leave him, that there would be a rumour going around that he was placed under a spell and that he could not get any labourers and that his support would diminish.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well then were you going to advertise this for everybody living in the Western Cape, so that in this employer-friendly area there would be no-one prepared to work for their Archbishop, is that what you are saying?

EDWARD WEBB: We hoped that it would work.

GEORGE BIZOS: You know hope must be realistic, you're not a superstitious man yourself are you?

EDWARD WEBB: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: So hope must have some realistic prospect of success before you commit what appears on the face to most reasonable people I would suggest, a ridiculous proposal and a ridiculous act.

EDWARD WEBB: That question only an anthropologist would be able to answer, somebody who knows about the habits of people.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well you know I would like to find out who this expert ethnologist or ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It's an anthropologist.

GEORGE BIZOS: ... anthropologist was that gave the CCB this advice.  Please can you help us?

EDWARD WEBB: No, I can't, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well will you please ask the people involved that came to you for your permission, who was this expert on human behaviour and so knowledgeable about the superstitions of people that he gave this advice?

EDWARD WEBB: I think Mr Bizos had the opportunity to ask Mr Verster, which he obviously didn't do.

GEORGE BIZOS: I think I did.  I think I even had to help with the translation of the word "ethnologist" that I had used, that's why I remember that I did.

EDWARD WEBB: Well if Mr Verster can't answer the question, neither can I.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who instigated this project from within the CCB?

EDWARD WEBB: It came from the bottom to the top, it came to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but do you know who instigated it?

EDWARD WEBB: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: You see - do you agree that now that I have asked you these questions, that if that was all that was to happen, to hang up this foetus and to knock eight nails into the driveway, that in itself doesn't make sense?  Would you agree?

EDWARD WEBB: Because I'm not superstitious.

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon?

EDWARD WEBB: Because I'm not superstitious now or I wasn't superstitious, but only one person can explain that to us and that's an expert.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you know - do you seriously say that a properly qualified psychologist - anthropologist "sielkundige" is a psychologist, a properly qualified psychologist would have put forward this theory ...(intervention)

EDWARD WEBB: Definitely not a psychologist.

GEORGE BIZOS: ... in order to intimidate Bishop Tutu?

EDWARD WEBB: Not a psychologist.

GEORGE BIZOS: "Sielkundige" you said.

EDWARD WEBB: No, you used the word psychologist.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm sorry, I thought that I heard you use the word "sielkundige".

EDWARD WEBB: "Volkekundige", anthropologist.

GEORGE BIZOS: Ja, very good, very good.  Any serious minded anthropologist would have suggested that this would have had the desired effect in intimidating Bishop Tutu?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now this business about the intimidation was not really against Bishop Tutu, the intimidation would have been on the servants.  To use your usual word.

EDWARD WEBB: Intimidation of Archbishop Tutu through his labourers.

GEORGE BIZOS: That it was through his employees doesn't appear in your application.

EDWARD WEBB: That's true, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Nor do any of the operatives mention that that was the intention, that the intention was to intimidate the workers.

CHAIRPERSON: Just to get back, was there any research done - we're getting back to this question about a study was done of the "bevolkingsgroepe" and it had come up that driving nails in a driveway and hanging a foetus was an act which would cast superstition and look like a spell has been spun.  I must say it's the first time I've heard about such superstition and - I'm certainly unaware of it.  Personally, I live in Transkei and I've never come across - I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I've never heard of it.  Now if all the people were working, who were working for the Bishop as labourers, came from a place where the hanging of a foetus and he driving in of nails into the driveway meant nothing to them, let's say for instance they came from Transkei and the superstition applied to people who came from the far north or something like that, then it wouldn't work.

EDWARD WEBB: Not at all, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So in other words, there must have been some research done as to the origin of the persons who were in the employ of the Bishop who worked at Bishopsgate, in order for it to have worked

EDWARD WEBB: There must have been.

CHAIRPERSON: And was that told to you, were you told "Look there's 10 people who work here and so many come from such an area", or whatever "and some of them may be open to the desired effect"?

EDWARD WEBB: It was told to me that there was a study done and by doing this we would get the desired effect, or we should get that effect.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't have any details as to what that study entailed?

EDWARD WEBB: The specific groups that were studied, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: We don't want to take up too much time on this or give it ...  Please have a look at page 132 of bundle B.  Please read the first paragraph on page 132.
GEN WEBB
"With my arrival at the City Lodge ..."
...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: This is Barnard, Mr Chairman.
GEN WEBB
"... I saw a white man, Dirk.  I found Dirk in the relevant room.  I starting talking with Dirk.  He told me that Desmond Tutu was a sensitive case and that they wanted to disrupt him in another way.  He said that it was a five-point plan and that the foetus was the third step.  The foetus had to be hung close to the Tutu home.  The nails had to be knocked on either side of the garden path.  There was research done about the witchcraft rituals of the group which Tutu belonged to.  Dirk said that the fourth step would be a hyena to be hung at Tutu's home.  The fifth step was one or other witchcraft poison with which Trevor Tutu would have been poisoned.  Dirk also said  ..."
...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: No, that's enough, that's enough thank you.  Now that would have been real intimidation, wouldn't it?  Of Bishop Tutu.  Wouldn't it?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.