Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-08

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: He was in BLAKO as well.

ADV BOSMAN: What was your position at the time Mr Hlasa?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I did not have any position, I was just a member.

ADV BOSMAN: I think in you application ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

ADV BOSMAN: In your application if I remember correctly, you say that you were a general commander?  If you can just go to page 1.  It says there
"State capacity in which you served in the organisation"
and I see you qualified there saying:
"From 1990"
So at that time you had no position, is that correct?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I did not have a position as yet.  I was still inside the country and that was in 1986.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I ask, when I asked of Glen's position in the leadership you said he was a member of something, what did you say?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: BLAKO.  Black General Workers Union.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it affiliated to AZAPO?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, it was.

CHAIRPERSON: And firstly, what position did he hold, do you know?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I do not remember, I only remember Jefferson Lingani's position.  He was the Labour Secretary of AZAPO.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we were at a point where you said you caucused there at Glen's house and then a decision was taken that it was getting late, these people should be killed.

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: That's what I said.  We then left to search for a sport where they would be killed.

MR TLOUBATLA: Yes, can you proceed then, what happened?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: We came back and we took the first group of three.  I had explained already that I do not know their names.  We left with them and we went to the veld outside Showela.  We were three and they were three,  each one of us shot one of them.  I do not remember among the people we shot, who it is exactly because I was told later that two of them survived.  We went back to the house and the second group left with the remaining three.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you in this first group who took out the deceased?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, I was in the first group.

CHAIRPERSON: You must tell us what happened there at the scene.

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: We loaded them in the boot of the car and we drove to the spot and we parked the car next to the house and we offloaded them.  We had guns, each one of us had his own gun and we took one, one from them and then we went up the hill and we made them stand on the edge and we shot them there and they fell.  We left them and we drove back and we gave guns to the other comrades and they took the next group.  I wouldn't know then what happened with the second group.

MR TLOUBATLA: In your first group, with whom were you?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I do not remember very well who the members of the first group were.  I remember that I was in the first group and I was driving but I know that the people who shot was myself, Matlana, Kani, Speedo.  I do not remember the others.  I remember the ones I've mentioned, I don't just remember in which groups we were.

CHAIRPERSON: You know Mr Hlasa, you want amnesty but you must remember that there's a price you pay for getting amnesty if you are to get it.  You've got to tell us in particular what your role was in a particular incident.
	I notice that you have the tendency of speaking in general, you have a tendency of not telling us what you did.  In your evidence you keep on saying this: "We did this, we took the people to Glen's house, we took them out of the car, we took them to the hill, we shot them, we went back, that is not good enough.  If you - you know for you to get amnesty, you have to embarrass yourself by publically telling us of the horrible things you did, then so be it.  That is the price you must pay if you are to get amnesty.   
	And if these people have to know about the horrible things you did as an individual then so be it, then people must hear about what you, Hlasa as an individual did.  You can't keep on using a general language and say: "We took people into the car, we took them to the hill, we turned back".  That is not good enough for the purpose of these proceedings.  You must tell us what you did, do you understand?  
	For one, I don't think that it was just a question of we taking them out of Glen's house, you must have dragged them, pushed them and they said: "No, please don't, it's not us who did this", you said: "No, we are going to kill you anyway" and they tried to resist, we took them out, we opened the boot, one of them did not want to get in, we kicked him in his stomach, we pushed him", why don't you tell us these things?  We are here to hear those things.  
	You can't just come here and say: "We took people out of the house, we put them into the boot of the car, we took them to the hill, we shot, we came back and another group went off.  They took them there, they shot them and they came back.  I'm beginning to have serious problems with the way you are giving evidence.  You must give us details of what you did, make a full disclosure.  Didn't they tell you that you must make a full disclosure if you want amnesty?  You should please do that, it is the price you pay for getting amnesty.  Do you understand?
	Now, these people you had taken to Glen's house, the caucus that they be killed, what happened?  And you must lay emphasis on your personal participation.

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I think I am telling the truth because when we took these people there was no resistance, we had guns and it was evident to them that if they resisted we would shoot them.  	They did not know that they were going to be killed.  We pointed the guns at them and told them we are going to such a place and they cooperated because we had guns.
	When we left comrade Glen's house to take them to a spot where they would be killed we pointed the guns at them, they did not just freely walk.  We pointed the guns at them, we loaded them into the boot and they realised that there was no chance of running away.  I don't know what was in their minds.  I explained that we left and then we reached the identified spot.  I would not lie and say I was with so and so.  
	I remember the people who took part in the shooting but I would not remember who was with me.  I don't want to make a mistake of naming someone who was not with me.  I know I shot.   Gabie, Speedo and Motlana shot.  I do not remember because this happened a long time ago, 1986.  I only remember ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just a minute, you are a little bit too fast.  You say you shot who and who?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Myself, Ganie, Speedo and Motlana.  Speedo is Mr Thandakubona and Mr Ikaneng.

CHAIRPERSON: So those are the people you went with?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, these are the people I was with but I know one of them was not in the car driven by myself but I do not remember well who it was.

CHAIRPERSON: I got only two names, Ganie, Motlana and did you mention another name?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Mr Thandakubona.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: We went up the hill and I shot one of them and I shot him once.  The comrades with me shot once and they fell and we went back.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Hlasa, I just want to find out, when you were caucusing at Glen's house, what is it that you were specifically caucusing about?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: The caucus was about what to do.  The decision was already taken that they be killed but we had to find a spot and plan our movement.  The first car was supposed to take three of them and they be killed, come back, then firearms be handed over to the next three so that they can also do their part.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Hlasa, when the first person was shot you went back alone and surely the other two must have heard that shot and they must have seen that the person was not with you anymore?