Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-31

MR PANDAY: (continued)  Mr Shandu, finally my question to you is that for the incidents where you supplied ammunition and weapons, have you applied for amnesty for those incidents?  I am not talking about the robbery at Avocas Wholesalers, I am talking about paragraph 3, you mentioned you supplied rounds of ammunition and firearms, have you applied for amnesty for those incidents?

MZWAKE SHANDU: No, I never supplied any firearms.

MR PANDAY: The rounds of ammunition that you supplied, did you apply for ammunition for those incidents?

MZWAKE SHANDU: No, I did not.

MR PANDAY: Any particular reason why you did not apply for amnesty?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I thought that I was going to get the opportunity when testifying on this incident, I did - it is something that I have mentioned in this same application that I am here about.

MR PANDAY: Did you mention to whom you supplied the ammunition, in the application that you talk about?

MZWAKE SHANDU: No, I cannot remember if I made mention of that, but if it is necessary for me to do so, I can do that.

MR PANDAY: Do you know the names of the people you supplied ammunition to?

MZWAKE SHANDU: The one that I referred to in this application, are you talking about that?

MR PANDAY: I am talking about paragraph 3, where you talk about supplying ammunition.

MZWAKE SHANDU: Can I please be given a moment to check on that?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, does it matter to whom he - he has admitted that he has sold to other people?

MR PANDAY: Okay, Mr Shandu, finally, do you know exactly what was the operation to take place in Avocas Wholesalers for?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes, I had knowledge about that.

MR PANDAY: What was the operation about?  Very briefly tell us, what do you know the operation was about?

MZWAKE SHANDU: All I know is that the money that was going to be found there, was to be given to the comrades of Mkababa, to assist them in buying firearms, secondly, Steyn who was working for the Murder and Robbery in Empangeni, was going to be killed.

MR PANDAY: Okay, thank you.  Nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Mr Shandu, I spoke to Sheila Mkhize telephonically and she is on her way to this hearing.  It is going to be her evidence that all the facts written in the statement, on page 11 or page 13 to 16, is information that you gave to her.   Would you like to respond to that?

MZWAKE SHANDU: What she had written here, I cannot dispute that she is not the person who wrote it, but some of the things that are written here, I know nothing about.

MS THABETHE: Just for the record, which paragraphs don't you know anything about so that Sheila can respond to those paragraphs accordingly?

MR LAX: Just before you do, are you saying someone else wrote the statement and not Ms Mkhize?

MZWAKE SHANDU: What I can say in this affidavit, paragraph 2 I know nothing about that, because I wouldn't write, I wouldn't compile an application form with Malevu and Ziba, while I was in Waterval and they were in Westville.  I think you should have asked herself a question how did that happen, because I was in Waterval and the other two were at Westville prison.

MS THABETHE: What else don't you agree with in this statement?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Paragraph 3, there is something written there that I joined the Police Force to supply them with firearms and ammunition rounds, to me it sounds more like I was a person who joined the Police Force specifically to supply firearms and ammunition, and that is not true.

MR LAX: It does not say that at all.  It says
"... in 1986 I joined the Police Force, and I should supply him with firearms and rounds."
	In other words, while you were a member of the Police Force, you used to supply him and I am assuming that him is Sifiso Malevu, who is in the first sentence?

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, the term is then.

MR LAX: If you look at the original, you can see it is him, not them.  It might have been a typing error, but it is clear that it is an "i" with a dot on it and everything.  Whoever translated it, obviously made a mistake, that is why I am reading it from - and therefore it makes sense because he is talking about Sifiso Malevu being his friend, and then he talks about then he joined the Police Force, and then he used to supply him?  Did you not supply Sifiso Malevu with firearms and rounds of ammunition?

MZWAKE SHANDU: No, I never supplied him with firearms.

MR LAX: But you did supply him with rounds of ammunition?

MZWAKE SHANDU: During the preparations for this operation that was to take place at Empangeni, secondly it is possible that  because of one, because I did not write the statement, I did not understand what is being said in paragraph 3, I did not understand that paragraph.
	To me, I cannot reconcile the two, joining the Police Force and supplying the firearms and ammunition.  If one can explain briefly to me the gist of this paragraph.

MR LAX: We have explained it to you, I have read it to you, it is very simple.  The gist of it is that you don't agree.  What else don't you agree with in this statement?
	While we are at it, did you take rounds from exhibits at all?

MZWAKE SHANDU: What exhibit?

MR LAX: You are a policeman, for goodness sake, you know what an exhibit is?

MZWAKE SHANDU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did this come from, is it something that the recorder made up?  Is that what you are suggesting, that this is untrue and it is in this statement as a result of a fantasy or fabrication of someone else?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I don't know, but as far as I am concerned, what I have explained to you is what happened, that is how I used to get the ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: It has to be a fabrication then, someone is trying to blame you for something that is not true, and implicating you in something that you know nothing of?  It has to be a lie, if what you are telling us, is the truth?  Isn't it, it is not a question that you don't know, someone put this into a statement that you signed, you say it is not true, you don't know anything about it, so it must have been inserted and fabricated by somebody else, not so?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I do not know that, but as far as I am concerned, I never took any ammunition from the exhibits.

CHAIRPERSON: And you never told anybody that you did so?

MZWAKE SHANDU: No.

MR LAX: What else is wrong in this statement?  If at all?

MZWAKE SHANDU: For now I have spotted that as a mistake.

MS THABETHE: Okay.  On paragraph 5 of your statement you say that your presence, you say Ziba and Sifiso approached you, requesting for more arms and for your company for an operation that was to be executed at Empangeni, correct and then you say
"... my presence would assist them in escaping from being searched by the police or even arrest, because as a policeman, I would produce my appointment certificate when necessary."
	That is correct?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes, that is true.  Ziba and Malevu came to me, but before that, Malevu came alone.

MS THABETHE: That is fine, but the gist of the matter is that you assisted them, because you were a policeman, and because when they escaped, they wouldn't be searched by the police because you were there, that is the gist of the matter, isn't it?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I was doing the job that I was supposed to do, I was not helping them.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.

JUDGE POTGIETER: You have put a fair summary of that to him.

MS THABETHE: Sorry?

JUDGE POTGIETER: I say you have put a fair summary of that to him, perhaps you should carry on with something else?

MS THABETHE: Yes.   Actually I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

MS MOHAMED: Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MS MOHAMED: Mr Chairman, I call Lindani Nteani.

CHAIRPERSON: Who?

MS MOHAMED: Mr Lindani Nteani.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nteani, which language would you prefer to use?