Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-15

MR VAN RENSBURG: Let's continue to the next page, paragraph six which says
"Traditional leaders on the other hand were perceived as condoning the practice of ritual sacrifices and also protecting people practising witchcraft in their respective areas."
Now let's establish first, according to you, who was the traditional leader in your area?  Mahvunga?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Adam Mahvunga was the traditional leader.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now was this paragraph, as you have put it down there, was this also the situation if you make it applicable on Adam Mahvunga?

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) Mr Van Rensburg, are we correct in honing in geographically and individually on the principle of attacking witchcraft?  Is the import of this affidavit and its evidence not that look Venda as a whole, we were of the view that it should be reincorporated into South Africa under the Pretoria government.  In general all these government officials, traditional leaders and institutions and mechanisms which Pretoria had used to manipulate power (indistinct) assisted by ritual murders, and witchcraft, etcetera.  And in general we are going to deal with the witchcraft situation for that purpose...(intervention)

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...as apposed to 'Look, did this witch deserve it?' or 'That wizard deserve it?'  I'm not saying the position was one or the other, I'm speaking for myself, I just get the impression that the import of the evidence is that we weren't honing on individual people but we were honing in on the concept and the institution of witchcraft.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And the general perceptions at the time?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I agree with you.  That is in fact the case of the Applicants.  My line of cross-examining is trying to point out that that in fact could not be the situation in that specific area.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no.  That may be so, I'm just saying that let's assume you are able to prove that Edward was not one of those people who assisted the Nationalist Government, would that make in difference in the perception of the people?  I just raised the question, don't answer it if you don't want to.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm just raising the question to emphasise a point I'm making, and if we're going to go into individual and geographical perceptions, we may sit here the whole two weeks.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: And at the end of the day, the import of the evidence is that we didn't attack particular people in a particular geographical situation or a particular individual but we attacked the whole phenomenon of witchcraft.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Because at least we perceived that they were assisting to entrench Apartheid and its mechanisms.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I understand that.  And I will address that issue during my address, thank you, Mr Chairman.  I'm not going to deal with this specific issue very long.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I can just perhaps get this answer on record.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct).

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you.  Mr Muhadi, can you just answer this question for us then, regarding paragraph six.  If you say that at the time it was the perception in the community that traditional leaders were perceived as condoning the practise of ritual sacrifices and also protecting people practising witchcraft, was that the situation in that specific area where you lived as well?

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you stay?  Mahvunga?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Yes, at Mahvunga.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) Mahvunga, did the people think that witches and wizards were being protected and what they were doing in terms of ritual sacrifices was being condoned by the traditional leaders?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: I wouldn't say traditional leaders at the time, some of them, well in other areas, might have been condoning that.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you say whether in your area that was the situation or can't you say?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Well, I can only say that is was not so because leader in our village was not really at home.  He used be on the Reef.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct).

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Going down to paragraph 11 on page two, it reads as follows
"We as the youth turned our attention to the burning of suspected witches and wizards as a further form of de-establishing the government of Mphepo's successor, Frank Ravele."
What do you mean by de-establishing?

CHAIRPERSON: Our affidavit reads destabilising.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I would concede that that would make more sense.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't know, maybe...(intervention).

MR VAN RENSBURG: I don't know why I have a different one then.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, the one that's officially signed reads 'destabilising.'

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Destabilising.  Perhaps I should ask you then if you can explain to this hearing, how the burning of the witches and wizards would destabilise the government?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Well, the burning of the witches or the traditional healers will contribute to the rival government as someone who was taking over from Mr Mphepo could not really be governable because that was our main aim when we were practising those things, so that when it was ungovernable, the South African government will then interfere.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) area, let's say for example of Venda, was governable precisely because those who were governing were assisted by the witches.  And if you got rid of the witches, it follows then that the area of Venda would become ungovernable and therefor Pretoria would then come to its senses.  Do I understand you correctly?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: What I'm saying is the removal or the burning of the witches in all the countries in Venda, the different countries in Venda, will make the government of Venda feel the pressure, also, having a problem regarding the burning and who is in the government, what is it that we should do in order to put them in a particular place and they will have that pressure.

<UNKNOWN>: (Indistinct).

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: The pressure will then really be in line with the killing of the witches and if that will continue, that will really give the government attention that it will lead eventually to the eventual wiping out of people and that will really give a problem to the central government.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) and not businessmen or the politicians themselves?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: I've said that we targeted the witches and the wizards because our (indistinct) in our village, they were the ones who were really torturing us, in our view.  And they were our real target to be used because...(intervention)

<UNKNOWN>: (Indistinct).

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Because...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: What were they doing?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: They were torturing us and bewitching us and they were really instilling bad spirits, etcetera.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) not helping those who were in government, the real reason they were killed was because they were torturing you and putting evil spirits on you, is that the position now?  Because earlier you told us that the reason they were killed was because they were assisting the government pockets to sustain their powers.  That's what you said, now you're telling us 'No, they were actually killed because they were casting evil spirits on you, evil spells, and they were torturing you.'

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: What I understand is that the Committee is asking me that witches definitely where I stay, it's just to give an example, what they do on my side especially regarding myself.