Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-12

UNKNOWN: Capt Mentz, could we turn to page 7 of this 
volume.  I would like you to read the second last paragraph 
of Warrant Officer Nortje's evidence.  He says he would like 
to also tie up Bellingham and Baker to certain incidents, on 
the next page, because they are not yet directly involved.  
They haven't as yet been contaminated, as we called it, and 
he decided that the two of them - he would use the two of 
them.  Actually he went for Baker.  And then he says 
further, and he then gave them instruction, after we rented 
the combis, or they knew that they were going with.  He then 
called in Wouter Mentz and Piet Botha.   Mentz had just been 
transferred from Murder and Robbery at that stage.  He 
hadn't been there for very long.  
	Now could you comment on this for the Committee, about 
the whole issue of the contamination and the purpose and the 
whole modus operandi?

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, I don't know why De Kock gave 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 151

UNKNOWN: Baker and Bellingham these instructions and that he wanted 
to contaminate them.  I don't have any knowledge of that.

UNKNOWN: Could I ask you, were you aware of the fact 
that that was the way in which De Kock operated, to involve 
people in certain events, to contaminate them as such?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I misunderstood, yes.

UNKNOWN: Now in your case, if you were involved in 
certain events, would it have created a problem for you, if 
you wanted to leave Vlakplaas or to talk about what happened 
there?

UNKNOWN: It would, yes.

UNKNOWN: Good I then take you to page 25. In the 
middle of that page the question was asked do you know 
whether people higher up knew of that?   I believe they 
would have been informed there, must have been informed. Is 
that in line with your evidence?

JUDGE WILSON: My page 25 is blank for the top half of the 
page.

UNKNOWN: Yes, yes, that is the page I am on, Mr 
Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: So where are you starting from?

UNKNOWN: In the middle of the typed part?

JUDGE WILSON: In the middle of the typed portion?

UNKNOWN: Yes, it says - let me read the second 
paragraph, "vanwaar af" - from Brig Van Rensburg's side who 
was then the commanding officer, and do you know where the 
people higher than him knew of this?  I believe that they 
would have been so informed, they must have been informed.

ADV DE JAGER: If you read the previous one it reads as an 
instruction and the question was where did the instruction 
come from?
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 152

UNKNOWN: Yes, I would have rectified that now.

UNKNOWN: This deals with the instruction and where 
it came from.  Is that in line with how you remember it?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And then the next question was, what, 
according to you, was the reason why Brian Ngqulunga had to 
be eliminated and the answer, because he wanted to talk 
about Mxenge from Durban. That is one of the reasons.  You 
have already testified about that, that you were not aware 
of that.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I didn't know anything about that.

UNKNOWN: Then he says Mxenge and on the next page he 
says yes, let us assume that, let us accept that.  He has 
already testified to that before the Harms Commission?  That 
is correct.  And on which occasion he also denied his 
involvement of that.  The answer was that is correct.  And 
then Capt Mentz you said that information came from 
elsewhere, not from C1, but from elsewhere, that this man 
had possibly changed tactics and went to talk to the ANC and 
Nortje said that is correct, that's how I understood it.  Is 
that in line with the information which you had received 
relating to the reason for Brian Ngqulunga's elimination?

UNKNOWN: That is correct, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: And then it said, and from the top the 
decision was taken that he must be eliminated.

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Just bear with me, please, Mr Chairman.  
Capt Mentz, just to complete the picture here, on page 45 
from 21, lines 21 to the next page 22, there is once again 
evidence about the contamination.  Mr Chairman, I am just 
drawing your attention to this, I have already asked the 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 153

UNKNOWN: witness about this.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Then on page 45 ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Page 45 which lines?

UNKNOWN: From line 20 onwards.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And then on page 48 from line 12, there 
Nortje is testifying about the question of whether you had 
been contaminated.  The question was  did it justify the 
choice of Mentz, motivate?  No, but Mentz had just arrived 
from Murder and Robbery at that stage and he had not yet 
been contaminated.  Yes, well, I suppose he was, but I don't 
know whether he knew that he had done something wrong.
	Did you know anything about this motivation to 
contaminate you?

UNKNOWN: No, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: But is there a possibility that that is the 
reason why you went on this operation?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I have no further places but 
Capt Mentz indicates he wants to say something about a 
specific page.  Could you please continue, Captain?

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, on page 45, the second last 
paragraph.  Could I continue?  
		" It was the choice of the people who were 
involved, who were to be involved in the 
operation".
Chairperson, I don't agree with that. You were never given a 
choice, you were never asked do you want to go with tonight 
or not, you were just told, you never had a choice?  ADV DE

JAGER: But does it here refer to your choice or 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 154

UNKNOWN: does it refer to the fact that he chooses you to go along on 
the operation and once you were involved you were actually 
caught up in the web and you were contaminated. Isn't that 
the choice that he is referring to?

UNKNOWN: That's possible Chairperson, then maybe I 
misunderstood it.

UNKNOWN: Captain, any other aspects which you would 
like to comment on?  I am not going into detail on all of 
this. So please just page through and see whether there are 
any other aspects you would like to comment on.
	Captain Mentz, one last question.  Insofar - I am not 
going to refer you to each and every place here, but insofar 
as Warrant Officer Nortje's evidence differs from what you 
have testified, do you stand by what you have testified?

UNKNOWN: I stand by what I have testified.

UNKNOWN: I have no further questions in this regard.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, in respect of this matter we 
have also obtained affidavits from the other people who were 
involved in this specific matter of Ngqulunga.  Firstly, 
there is an affidavit by Col Baker and then there is also an 
affidavit by Col Bellingham or Capt Bellingham, I beg your 
pardon. I beg leave to hand up copies of these affidavits.  
The affidavit of Baker would then be EXHIBIT BB and the 
affidavit of Bellingham EXHIBIT CC.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Chairman, you will note that both these affidavits 
say that they have perused the written amnesty application 
of Capt Mentz, that they confirm the correctness of the 
contents of the amnesty application of Capt Mentz, 
pertaining to the nature and particulars, the date, the 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 155

UNKNOWN: place, the name of the victim, the political objectives and 
the particulars pertaining to the order given.  
	Then each of them say that,
		"I wish to state that I will apply for amnesty for 
this act myself, and that my amnesty application 
will substantially contain the same evidence that 
was contained in Capt Wouter Mentz's application, 
as well as his testimony. I therefore support Capt 
Mentz's amnesty application. I am of the view that 
he has made full disclosure of all relevant facts 
pertaining to this incident".

JUDGE WILSON: Does anything tie up this affidavit with the 
incident that we are talking about?