Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: He's lying.

MS TANZER: According to Mr Nosenga, the policemen were wearing civilian clothes, he entered into a Caspir, together in the Caspir was Gatchene, Ruben, who I expect is you, Themba Kubeka, Lucky, Sipho, Makuka, Samo, Dondo and Mkhize.  He further states that Themba Khosa did not take part in the attack, what are your comments?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: He is lying.

MS TANZER: Well Mr Nosenga states that he saw the Caspirs moving through the streets as the hostel residents were attacking the people of Boipatong.

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: In all his stories I can say that he is trying to smear himself with fats of which he did not eat the meat.  He is trying to ask for forgiveness and apologising to ANC by claiming that he did what he did for IFP.  We did what we did because we knew that the police were not there.  I know that it's me that did that, not the police, not what he is saying.  What he is saying, he is lying.

MS TANZER: Well this is the evidence that Mr Nosenga is going to give and it is my duty to put his evidence to you and to get  your response which we are hearing so unambiguously.

CHAIRPERSON: You see Ma'am, I understand your obligation but I think at some point you have to consider what is the value of going through the entire statement when the witness denies categorically, firstly that Nosenga was at the hostel at all and that he took part in the attack.  I'm not saying don't put it but you know, once a witness says this man is lying, he was never there, putting everything that he said which he is going to deny in any event.

MS TANZER: I hear what you say, Mr Chairman, but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But if there are matters that you feel very strongly about and ought to be put to the witness, by all means do so.

MS TANZER: Don't you think it's rather unusual that Mr Nosenga gives a vivid account of that night and besides the police presence there are similarities in the events that he describes and events that the other applicants describe on the night of the 17th?

CHAIRPERSON: And there are dissimilarities as well, fundamental differences.

MS TANZER: I'm referring to the similarities now, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: For you to put the complete - you've got to put the complete picture to the witness.
	You see what counsel is asking you is the following, and this now relates to everything that Nosenga is saying in his sworn statement:  You say that he was never at the hostel prior to the attack and he was never part of the attack.

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, now what's being put to you is, in his affidavit he talks about some of the incidents which occurred at the hostel which everyone knows they did occur and he also talks about going to Boipatong and launching an attack there.  If he was never at the hostel and was never part of the attack, how then would he have had information often concerning these events that he had described?
	Is that more or less what you want to put to this witness?

MS TANZER: I couldn't put it more succinctly myself, Mr Chairman.

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I don't know where he heard about these things.

MS TANZER: My final question to you then is, did you attend a rally in Ulundi about a month after the Boipatong attack?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, I have never attended a rally at Ulundi.  I know Ulundi.  I went to a rally in Ulundi when Mr Mandela wanted to meet Mr Buthelezi.  That is when that date was postponed and then he said to us we should go and meet there, not at Ulundi because there were allegations and rumours that he'll be killed.  That was the first time that I went to Ulundi.

MS TANZER: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger?  The time now is about twenty to six, would this be convenient to take an adjournment?

MR BERGER: It would, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did we agree on half past eight?

MR BERGER: I think we just have.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well, we will now adjourn and we'll start at half past eight tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS