Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

ADV DE JAGER: Peter also gave evidence that you pulled the
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trigger and the firearm wouldn't go off at a stage and then you said to him that he was lucky that he had been saved and thereupon you left.  Did you ever speak to him and say to him that he has been lucky to be saved?

UNKNOWN: I think Peter was confused.  I asked him as to where the people who were attacking us were.  But he did not answer me.  That is when I saw that he was in a state of shock, so I never went on further to ask any questions.  He saw the gun that I was having.  I was pointing towards the house because I thought at that time the people were still in there and they were going to come out.  Maybe he thought I wanted to shoot him.

MS THABETHE: ... you say there were gunshots coming from the house.

UNKNOWN: That is true.

MS THABETHE: ... inside the house?

UNKNOWN: I believe it was Skwayi from the Nqobo family, that is the people who were chasing us.

MS THABETHE: My question was, they were shooting from the house.  Who do they believe was shooting from the house?

UNKNOWN: I believed it was Skwayi Nqobo who was a member of the IFP.  He was hiding inside the house, shooting at us from inside the house, and I was launching an attack from outside the house.

CHAIRPERSON: You know Skwayi Nqobo?

UNKNOWN: I also know Nqopeni Zulu.  I did not know the third one's name.

MS THABETHE: When you shot, you fired gunshots.

UNKNOWN: I had no idea that there were other people inside the house because I was concentrating mainly on the members of Inkatha who were attacking us and they even
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attacked us whilst they were inside the house, so I was launching a counter attack on them and not on any other member of that family.

MS THABETHE: ... a two-year old that was killed inside the house.

UNKNOWN: At that time I did not have any idea,  but now I do.

JUDGE WILSON: If you were chasing these people who shot at you as you say at the Luthuli kraal, why did you tell the trial court that you heard gunshots from inside the kraal which surprised you greatly?

UNKNOWN: Could you please repeat the question?

JUDGE WILSON: You were chasing armed men who had been firing at you you have told us.

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Why did you then in that event tell the trial court that while you were waiting outside the kraal you heard gunshots and this surprised you greatly.

UNKNOWN: I had a problem in court.   I was not speaking the truth because I was scared that I would get convicted.

JUDGE WILSON: You lied about a number of things, didn't you?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is true.

JUDGE WILSON: You said you had an I'Kapi knife.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: You said you were chasing these two people so you could question them and hand them over to the police.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I did say that.

JUDGE WILSON: ... your intention was to kill them and only them.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is true.
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MS THABETHE: What time did  the attack occur?

UNKNOWN: It was about 6 am, it was thereabouts, but I am not really sure as to the time.

MS THABETHE: ... explaining to the Committee.  You were looking for these men and you knew exactly who they were and you knew exactly which house they were in.  Why didn't you get inside the house and get them?  Can you explain that to the Committee?

UNKNOWN: The problem that we had they were also armed and it was not going to be easy for us to get inside the house.  That is why we had to launch an attack from the outside.

MS THABETHE: ... manage to come out of the house during the exchange of those gunshots?

UNKNOWN: I did say that.  The child came out of the house after the shooting had seized.

MS THABETHE: ... those two children.

UNKNOWN: I did not know their names, but in court I heard that it was Peter and the other one was Thandazani.
I did not really see because at that time I think I also got confused because I kept on looking out.

MS THABETHE: You say two children came out of the house.

UNKNOWN: That is true.

MS THABETHE: Who else?

UNKNOWN: I don't recall the other one's name.  I only heard their names in court.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When you say you didn't know their names, did you at least know them by sight, that is Peter and the other boy, Thandazani?

UNKNOWN: No, I did not know the two children who came out of the house.
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SISI KHAMPEPE: You did in your evidence however say that you know Skwayi Nqobo and Mqupeni Zulu

UNKNOWN: That is true, I knew them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And was Skwayi Nqobo a brother of Peter Nqobo?  Do they stay at the same kraal?

UNKNOWN: That is true.

JUDGE WILSON: So you say these two little boys came out of the house after the shooting was over.

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you notice anything about them?

UNKNOWN: No.

JUDGE WILSON: (Inaudible)

UNKNOWN: I have already explained that I wasn't paying attention to some of the things, because of the fact that whilst I was launching the attack I was also keeping a lookout as to whether there was any person coming.

JUDGE WILSON: Are you suggesting that these two little boys who had been shot then walked out of the house and came up to the person who had been doing the shooting?

UNKNOWN: They went out of the house and they didn't come exactly to me, but they just stood next to the house.

JUDGE WILSON: What part of the house were you shooting at?

UNKNOWN: It was next to the door, but directly opposite the window.

JUDGE WILSON: ... aiming at the door?

UNKNOWN: No, I was aiming through the window.  The window was close to the door, but I was not facing the door, I was facing the window.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you shooting through the window?

UNKNOWN: That is true.

JUDGE WILSON: You say you couldn't see anybody inside.
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UNKNOWN: /...
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UNKNOWN: That is true, I saw no one.

JUDGE WILSON: What sort of weapon were you using?

UNKNOWN: I had a 9.

JUDGE WILSON: A 9mm pistol?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And shooting blindly you managed to shoot this old woman of 73, Nomakemi Nqobo three times.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is true.

JUDGE WILSON: You managed to shoot Mavis Nqobo, aged 38 six times.

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And you managed to shoot Andile Nqobo aged 2 two times it appears.

UNKNOWN: That is true.

JUDGE WILSON: It was pure chance.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I can say it happened, probably it is the position that I was at when I was shooting, that's when the bullets got them.

JUDGE WILSON: ... where were they shooting from?

UNKNOWN: They were inside the house and their bullets went through the door and I kept on ducking and when I saw the bullets coming through the door I would duck to another direction.  When I saw them coming out of the window I ducked to the opposite direction.

JUDGE WILSON: And you just go on hitting the same people inside the house.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I did.

JUDGE WILSON: (Inaudible)

UNKNOWN: Yes, they were closed.

JUDGE WILSON: (Inaudible)

UNKNOWN: Yes, both, because it was stili very early in
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the morning.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you hear no screams from inside the house after you shot these women and children?

UNKNOWN: I did hear some noise, but it was from these children who were actually screaming, the  two children that I referred to before.  But when the shooting was still taking place I could not hear any noise in the house.   I only heard the noise after the shooting had ceased.