Human Rights Violation Hearings — Heiderveld — 1996-04-25

MR SIKWEPERE: Yes I can.  Now when the communities asked how can he ask us to disperse because this is just a small meeting, we were just 20 to 25.  We were here to elect people and we were just asking how can he ask this of us.  We elected 3 people, one of them was Vulelo Schoto we use to call him Bullet, I can't remember the name of the third one.  I was the fourth one, but I wasn't elected.
I wanted to find out what was the response from this white man.  That time he had already turned towards Nyanga East.  On his way back from Nyanga East he was facing KTC now.  Now that's when now we were told now this three elected men must go and represent us.  When I saw that the van now was stationary, I went to it.  They checked if the person driving the car was the one that they were looking for - they found that no it wasn't him.
I was just standing for two minutes next to the window, I found out now - now this white man opened the door and withdraw his gun.  Now I wanted to find out what is the story going on, on the other side of this car.  I tried to peep and I was looking straight into him, straight to him.  When - while I was still looking at him, these people asked him, how can you ask us to disperse, and yet we have no aims to do harm to anyone.  We are here to stop whoever who is trying to burn this place up.  
This white man said this in Afrikaans - you are going to get eventually what you looking for.  And I am going to shoot you.  I was shocked at what this white man said to him, to me.  He said in Afrikaans, I am going to get you.  Now I wanted to find out why is he talking to me like this.  And I was just trying to find out was he referring to me by all these, and one - one of the men behind me ran.  I saw this people surrounding this van - I was now wondering when - where do these people come from surrounding this van, all of a sudden.
After I saw this running men, now I didn't even care about this one, I was talking to.  After that I heard a loud noise, it sounded like a stone hitting a sink, now it - it ended up looking now I was going to be included among these people surrounding this van.  But I decided not to run, I decided to walk.  Because I knew that if you run, you were going to be shot, so I decided let me just walk into a safe place where I can just start now running.  But during that time shootings were going on, there were two white men in this car.
Barnard was not driving at that time,  now when I - when I arrived at the place when I thought now I am safe, I felt something hitting my cheek.  I couldn't go any further, I stayed right there only to find out I had been hidden by a corner of a house.  I felt my eyes itching, I was just itching my eyes, I was scratching my eyes I wasn't quite sure what happened to my eyes at that particular time.  I felt somebody stepping on my right shoulder.
And saying I thought this dog has died already.  I felt both my eyes -  I was just waiting that these people are going to take me to a prison  end of Tape 19, side A ... during that whole time - after saying is this man dead or not, some people picked me up.  Only to find out they were taking me into a private car, now that's the car that took me to the hospital.  That's where I spend a month, after I came back I still stayed in misery.
The same white man still tried to torture me, another night this white man came again.  They came to fetch me and I was staying that time with my girl friend.  When I got to where the Casspir was going, it was Nyanga East at the police station.  That's where they really beat me up so much that they said I was the organiser of all these riots.
I was worried, tried to think where were they taking me, they emphasized all - they were concentrating on me, most of the time, they took me to the cemetery.   I was with Lulama  Magoje and she was the one who was holding my hand.  And they pushed me into a hole and they were - I was told to tell the truth even if you could die here now, nobody would know anything.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Truth about what Baba?

MR SIKWEPERE: They were asking us about arms, they were telling - they were saying I am the boss.  Lulama who was next to me - was the one who was always with me.  I couldn't tell them anything because I didn't even know what they were asking me.  After 15 to 20 minutes, they pulled me out - I don't know - I don't know how Lulama got out of this grave.  They took us into - into the Culemborg police station.  There we were taken one by one, they would just take the one's they wanted and take them home.  When we got to Nyanga East we were told to go - to go back home.  I stayed at home for two to three months.  And these people came back again.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Who are these people Baba?

MR SIKWEPERE: These people are white policemen, I cannot tell their names now, and I cannot tell who they were because I was already blind this time.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Were they speaking English or Xhosa?

MR SIKWEPERE: They were speaking English but there was only one Xhosa speaking person, it was the interpreter.  After that they took me to Guguletu police station.  We stayed there with other detained people.  One of them was Baba - not Baba only to find that they were not looking for Baba they were looking for Baba.
They told me that I - they were going to put me away until I tell the truth.  Because they believe that I am the one who knows everything.  They thought that I had the guns and the hand grenades.  I told them I don't know anything about those, I was shocked when they told me they were going to throw me into Allandale.
I knew that this is something, this was their usual practice.  Because I was very scared I told them a certain statement which I cannot even tell now to you because I was too scared.  I was just telling then that people were burning certain places and they were murdering certain people, I cannot tell you why I said that, because I - I was so confused.  KTC place was the place where people use to be killed.
Now so I thought I was going to go to Kwa Langa where I use to stay.  That's where I will end this - my story.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Baba.  We can see that this is still painful for you, when you have to talk about these things, we can see that it is painful for you.  Baba because at the end of all - all these proceedings, I would like to ask you a few questions to have clarity.  Firstly you said something that had happened at KTC where Barnard was, is that.

MR SIKWEPERE: Yes.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Secondly after three months when you were taken again, you were taken to the cemetery at NY5 is that so?   That's where they put you in one of the graves, is that so?

MR SIKWEPERE: Yes.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: What did they do to you when you were at the cemetery, what did [intervention]

MR SIKWEPERE: While we were at the cemetery, these people told me that while you are in this grave you can die in here and nobody will know where you are.  They told - they asked me to tell the truth and I told them that I don't know anything.  We were not beaten up while we were in the cemetery.  While they were talking to me, I was already in this grave.  I was with Lulama Magoje in this open grave.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: This truth were they - is that the truth that they were asking you that you knew everything about the arms?

MR SIKWEPERE: That's right.  They wanted people called that time Rasta.  Because it looked like at that time it - it was Rasta who knew where the arms were.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Baba I am going to let you go now, but I am going to hand you over to our Chairperson, maybe some of my Colleagues have questions as well.  Do you think you can answer some of their questions?

MR SIKWEPERE: Yes I will.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyone with a question, Dumisa Ntsebeza.