Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-21

MR PRIOR: Good morning, Mr Chairman.  It is the 21st of April 1998.  The amnesty applications of Phila Martin Dolo and Thabiso James Makoala proceed, and I understand Mr Makoala will be called to testify.

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I will call the applicant, Mr Makoala to testify.  May he please be sworn in in Sesotho.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: (duly sworn  states)

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman, for the sake of ...(indistinct) I will request Mr Makoala to confirm certain paragraphs of Mr Dolo's affidavit.  Mr Makoala in paragraphs you have read in an affidavit of Mr Dolo.

MR PRIOR: Just for the records, seSotho is on channel 4.  Can you hear us?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, I can hear you.

MR PRIOR: Thank you. Can you just speak up a little bit so that we, we, maybe Mr Mthembu can you just move that microphone a little bit closer to you please.  That's fine.  That's perfect.  Perhaps you can try again, Mr Mthembu.

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Makoala, is it correct that you have read the affidavit of Mr Dolo.  Are you going to confirm certain paragraphs contained therein?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR MTHEMBU: I suppose that you confirm paragraphs 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 of the referred affidavit of Mr Dolo?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes I will do so.

MR MTHEMBU: But my question is whether you will confirm the said paragraphs, or not?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, I know about them.

MR MTHEMBU: And you confirm them?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, I do confirm that.

CHAIRPERSON: If we could also have, confirm something else.  Where you the person known as Kleintjie?  Kleintjie was referred to in those paragraphs.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, I am Kleintjie.

MR MTHEMBU: Now, can one briefly to tell the Committee about your involvement in this incident.  Just briefly.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: May you please repeat your question?

MR MTHEMBU: Briefly tell the Committee of your involvement or your roll in this incident.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: What happened on that day is we were four, it was me, Phila Dolo, Roger, and Scorpion.  We hitchhiked on a truck.  We knew that we were going to an operation, but we didn't know what type of operation was that.  Phila Dolo was the only one who knew what kind of operation we were going to as he was our Commander. We hitchhiked until the area where the operation was to be carried out.  That is where he explained to us what was about to happen. It was in the morning, very early and it was misty and you couldn't see perfectly who were in the car.  And Mr Dolo as my Commander said that me, Kleintjie, I should move away from them something like a distance of hundred meters so that I could look out for white cars, people, white people in cars.  And I took that order, and then a van approached which had three passengers in them.  It were white people, and I gave a signal as I was ordered to.  And from there I heard gunshots from where my Comrades were standing, and the car went out of the road.  The people in the car alighted and they ran away, and I tried to get to my Comrades at that time.  My Comrades were chasing those people by then, that is those white people who had come out of the car.  There was another car approaching from the direction of Herschel.  That car stopped and this white people got into that car.  When that car tried to make a U-turn, Comrade Dolo gave us orders not to shoot and said that he was the only one who was going to shoot.  When that car made a U-turn, Comrade Dolo started shooting and that car fell over the bridge.  We went to investigate what happened with the car.  When we got there we found a white female and she seemed dead, and there was another black person there, who were lying outside the car.  And the black person also seemed dead.  One of my Comrades, that Comrade Scorpion, saw the others who had survived and he chased them, and in his chase he fired some shots.  And Comrade Phila also followed and fired shots.  Comrade Phila also shot this person.

MR MTHEMBU: Is this now?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: That is the person who was being chased by Comrade Scorpion who had survived the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he only shoot one of them?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: May you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand it, two people ran away.  Did Scorpion only shoot one of them?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, he only shot one of them.  That is the one he was chasing.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to the other one?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: The other one, what I realise was that when we were about to withdraw and in the car he was the person who was hitchhiking along the road who Comrade Dolo wanted to run down with the car.  I think that is the second person that survived the incident.  After Comrade Dolo shot this other person he called us all, and when we got to him while we still gathering there another car appeared from the direction of Herschel and it had female in the, in it.  The females I noticed were two who were sitting in the front.  What happened is that Comrade Dolo stopped the car.  Comrade Dolo had an R4 in his left hand and he stopped the car with his right hand.  The car came to a stop and Comrade Dolo asked them to take us to Sterkspruit.  The female who was driving said she couldn't drive because she was frightened at that time because of what had happened, because there was someone who was lying along the road.  There was a car with wrecked windows and she suspected that something that had just happened, and then Comrade Dolo borrowed the car and he told the driver that she would find the car at Sterkspruit at Moleko's place.  By that time there was a shop, a very big shop, which belonged to Moleko and that is where he told them they would find the car.  And then Comrade Dolo got in the car and I also got into the car and the other Comrades got at the back of that car.  Once we in the car, when Comrade Dolo lifted his head he saw a white 4 X 4 bakkie facing us.  And then he gave me the R4 and ordered me to shoot that car. And then came out of the car, I shot at that other car.  I can't remember how many bullets I used, and then that car reversed.  It was white person in the car and he was alone and when he reversed, Comrade Dolo made a U-turn and we then drove off.  Along the road we met another white person hitchhiking and Comrade Dolo tried to run that person with the car, and he realised that he would be wasting his time by doing that and we drove away.  According to our agreement with the owners of the car, we agreed that we would leave the car at Sterkspruit, but we ran out of fuel.  And when that happened we moved into another village, but before, that is before we arrived at Sterkspruit.  I can't remember what the village place was, and we left the car near to a school, together with the keys inside and then we went on foot, and we went to our base that we were staying.  When we arrived there we gave the guns to Comrade Peter, and thereafter Comrade Peter said that he was going to report, I didn't where he was going to report or who he was going to report to.  I would end there.

MR MTHEMBU: To give your Comrades a signal, were you also armed or not, and if so, with what were you armed?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I had a 38 special revolver on me.

MR MTHEMBU: Do you still today, do you still perceive Settlers or whites, to be still enemies or not?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: If at all they carry themself as the whites who supported the past regime I still view them as my enemies.

ADV SANDI: So, Mr Mthembu, can I ask the witness to repeat what he has just said.  I did not pick it up.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: What I am trying to say is that the boss.  If they still carry themselves as oppressors, I will still perceive them as my enemies.  But if it at all they do what the Africans do, or behave like Africans, and are not oppressive, I will take them as Africans.  I won't take them as my enemies any longer.