Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-29

MR RICHARD: I accept that if it's the subject matter of another hearing, it will be explored somewhere else.  There is no reason for me to carry on on that point.  Now, other than the Braklaagte attack, were there any other incidents?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: There are no other incidents where I was directly involved.  Other attacks that concerned me, my involvement was in as far as supplying the weapons to those people who were going to attack those places.

MR RICHARD: So, for the purposes of this line of questioning, all I needed to know was that there was only one incident within the Republic of South Africa, during that period 1976 to 1991 and I leave it there.

INTERPRETER: It seems the applicant has a problem with his receiver.

MR RICHARD: I'll repeat.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard, yes please, I was just going to ask if you could repeat your question.

MR RICHARD: What I'm trying to establish, and I'll outline it in full, we've now established that there was one incident at Braklaagte which you've referred to during the period 1976 to September 1991, which took place within the borders of the Republic of South Africa.  I'm now asking you this question.  Can you confirm that there were no other incidents within the Republic of South Africa, besides that incident?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, the witness has already explained that on numerous occasions.  He entered into the Republic of South Africa to assist soldiers entering South Africa on their way to carry out certain missions.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Richard is getting at is whether the Braklaagte incident was the only mission, I think we use the word mission or operation in which the applicant participated in the action.

MR BERGER: And he's already said so, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what my understanding was, it was the only one inside the Republic.

MR RICHARD: I take it as then confirmed.  So then with regard to the subject matter of the current hearing, please confirm that all and everything that you did, took place outside the Republic of South Africa.

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, I would agree with you.  Like I've already said that in other incidents I was indirectly involved.

MR RICHARD: But in relation to this particular sequence of incidents that we're discussing during these hearings, as you've said, other incidents you were involved, but not these.

JUDGE PILLAY: His answer was that he wasn't directly involved.

MR RICHARD: And the indirect involvement was indirectly while you were outside the Republic of South Africa?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That's correct.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now I take it then that you'd never on any one occasion helped Mr McBride or Mr Webster, or any one of the applicants in this hearing while on the South African side of the border, to either exit or enter the Republic or Botswana as the case might have been?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Can you please explain that question further?

CHAIRPERSON: The question asked is, did you at any stage assist or help any of the applicants at this hearing in South Africa?  Is that the question?

MR RICHARD: Correct.

MR BERGER: There was none, but just for clarity, is the question whether this witness ever helped Mr McBride or Mr Webster or any of the other applicants in this hearing, on the South African side of the border as they were coming in or going out from operations?

MR RICHARD: Yes, that is correct, thank you.

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I have never helped them.

MR RICHARD: And I take the statement, "I've never helped them", to mean on the South African side of the border.  You helped them on the other side of the border?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: You question was that whether I helped the people who are my co-applicants here, particularly Mr Robert McBride, so my answer was that I never helped Mr McBride.

MR RICHARD: My next question then is, if you say you never helped Mr McBride, that answer means you never helped him either on the South African side of the border or on any other side of the border in any other country.

MR BERGER: No Chairperson, it clearly doesn't mean that at all.

MR DEHAL: My submissions would be the same.

CHAIRPERSON: I think if you can go back to the original question and put it again, Mr Richard, because there seems to be a bit of confusion here.

MR RICHARD: I understand the confusion.  Did you ever help Mr McBride, or Mr Webster or any of those mentioned as applicants in this hearing?

JUDGE PILLAY: To commit the crimes?

CHAIRPERSON: I think there might be difficulty or confusion relating to the word help, because we've heard evidence quite clearly that he supplied materials, he performed political education, he did some training, certainly with Mr McBride and with Mr Webster.  I think perhaps if you can just be a little bit more precise, that might be the problem.

MR BERGER: And also now, Chairperson, there's now residual confusion and my learned friend somehow needs to clear the slate and start again with this line of ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think so.  Let's start again.

MR RICHARD: The essence of what I am trying to establish, and I will explain it, from what you've said earlier this morning, you did assist Mr McBride and Mr Webster at various points in time, to do various things and I will ask you what you did later, while in Botswana.  However, you did nothing to assist or help them once they left Botswana and that's the proposition that I'm asking you to confirm.  The next question would be ...(intervention)

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Richard, just let us stop there.  Helping a person could be financial or any other way.  Let us get to the crux of the matter.  How are you saying, or asking, did this applicant help Mr McBride?

MR RICHARD: The next proposition is quite simple.  If everything that he did was outside the border, whatever it was, the question is, what did he do outside the border, because from his evidence-in-chief, I'm less than clear what he did.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have any dealings with Mr McBride or any of the other applicants in South Africa, when you were physically present in South Africa, is that what you're trying to ...

MR RICHARD: Correct, I'm happy with that as a proposition.

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I've never helped Mr McBride in South Africa.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  I'll proceed then.  Now, please refer to paragraph 17 or Exhibit B4.  At the second sentence of that paragraph, you state,
"I cannot now recall what was provided to whom, when and under what circumstances."
Do you see the sentence I have just read?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Now, from what you said in your evidence-in-chief, it means, and I asked you, can you recall whether you provided anything at all, any material at all to either Mr McBride or to Mr Webster.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, with respect, my learned friend is quoting one sentence out of a statement.  He doesn't quote paragraph 15 and the witness has given specific evidence in relation to 15 as well.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think the question's unfair, because the question was simply whether he can recall whether he provided any material at all.  He can answer it.  The question was, can you recall whether you provided any material at all to Mr McBride or Mr Webster.  That is the question.

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: So then, can you recall what you provided in the form of material to Mr McBride or his unit, or to Mr Webster?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, there is a material that I remember.

MR RICHARD: What material was it?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That's a limpet, AK47s, grenades and bullets.

MR RICHARD: Did you supply any explosive devices as well, besides limpets?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, you were present when Mr Ismail gave the evidence that Mr McBride attended to the fetching and collection and transporting of his own materials.  Is that in accordance with your memory as well?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, I do.