Amnesty Hearings — Richards Bay — 1998-04-14

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: It was the local leadership of eSikhawini.  The reason I am specifically called on Bebebeyela, Mbuyasi and Mataba is because they were the leaders and mainly participated in our meetings, but there were other people like Mrs Mtyali who was a Counsellor at H1, who would be at the meetings and people like Counsellor Mzuzu, (indistinct) Mkhize, they would sometimes attend these meetings.  It was not only the three people I have mentioned who were at the meetings.
	I cannot therefore specifically say who said what, who said this and who said that.  It happened a long time ago, but at the meetings people would participate and negotiate and discuss, but I cannot specifically say now who said this person should be killed for this reason, but it came out of the meeting.
	But the people that I mentioned, used to be at those meetings and ourselves, I would be there, Romeo would also be there.   Israel and Zweli wouldn't be there.  They were, they could be in the vicinity, but they wouldn't be in the meetings.
	We sometimes discussed at Mrs Mbuyasi's house or in the Klangelani Hall, but the people I have just mentioned, the three people, were usually the people who were mainly at these meetings.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you Ms Committee member.  There were also persons and we will get into the details of why they were on the list, if necessary at a later stage, just to mention the names of persons who were perceived to be members of the ANC, who were listed.  Can you mention just the names of those persons?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: Although I cannot remember all of them, but Welcome Mtimkhulu was on the list.  Even some of the Youth that were perceived to be a danger, people like Sihle.

MR WILLS: Sihle who, sorry?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: Sihle Macatini, I am not quite sure, but I think it is Macatini.
	There are others that we didn't know, there was some person called Mnayi from Mquelisani, I didn't know this person well.  I remember that I had asked Zweli to investigate about Mnayi.
	There were others that I cannot remember correctly, maybe I should have a look at the affidavit.

MR WILLS: Yes, certainly you can mention the persons you have indicated on the affidavit, on page 94 and 95, that is your paragraph 42.

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: I have enumerated them, Masinga, Manzini, Khumalo and Dhlamini, Sihle Macatini who was alleged to be a trained MK member, Themba Mabaso, who was supposed to be a hit man for the ANC, Jerry Msibane, an ANC hit man, Vincent Makwanasi, and Mnayi that I have mentioned from Mquelisani and also Mtanda.  His real name was Bafana Jele.

MR WILLS: You have indicated that in paragraph 43 of your affidavit, on page 95 of the record, that whilst this was a list, it wasn't in fact a physical, written list, it was just the names of people who were mentioned, is that correct?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: That is correct.  It was well known that there was no written records, because this could be discovered later, so there was nothing that was written down.

MR WILLS: I want to now start concentrating on the actual incidents that you were involved in personally.  I am going to go through these incidents in the same sequence that you have recorded them in your affidavit.
	Let us start with the attack on ANC members at the Gundani bus stop which occurs on page 96 of the record, and your paragraph 46.
	Can you explain to the Committee what happened in that instance, who was with you, who told you to do this, the general circumstances surrounding this attack?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: As I have already explained, there was a time when Prince Gideon Zulu instructed that we should use the ANC strategy, therefore the instances here that we carried out and attacked the followers, because of that reason.
	There are incidents that happened because some IFP members, three of them, were arrested, Dhlamini Pumatenwua, Ben Mlambo, I don't remember the third person's name.
	When we sought bail for these members, the Magistrate refused.  When this bail application was still being debated at Ntinzeni, there was a certain Mr Willis Nqono who was an ANC leader who stood up and went to the witness box, and said that he requested the Court not to grant this IFP members bail because since they had been detained, there is peace as eSikhawini.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mkhize, to interrupt.  Mr Wills, you said that you were asking about the Gundani bus stop, but I see we are now talking about the attacks to influence bail, which appears on page 106, is this how you want to do it or how Mr Mkhize wants to do it.  I think we should just clear it up for record purposes?

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you very much Mr Chairperson, I was wondering how I should deal with that problem.  Mr Mkhize, I think the most efficient way of us leading this evidence is to stick to the format of your affidavit.  If you notice the issue of the bail appears later, at in fact page 106 or paragraph 63.  If you can just stick to the order in which I ask the questions, I realise this happened a long time ago, but if we can try and stick to the order of your affidavit, I and the Committee members would appreciate that.
	Just deal with the incident at Gundani's bus stop initially.

SISI KHAMPEPE: It is on page 96.

MR WILLS: Yes, it is paragraph 46.

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: We can continue.

MR WILLS: Thank you, this incident occurred shortly after the ANC attack on the meeting at, the rally at eSikhawini is that correct, if you can just take us from there?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: That is why I was explaining the issue at the court, because I don't remember correctly whether to attack the Gundani bus stop was because of the rally incident or because of what I was just explaining now, which concerned Mr Nqono.  I don't remember quite correctly the reason, but these incidents to attack busses, attacking mobs, was - I don't really remember why the attack on the Gundani bus stop was carried out.
	I was just trying to explain that other incident, so that we could understand the circumstances surrounding these attacks, because I don't really remember between the two reasons why the incident at Gundani was carried out.
	Let me put it to the Commission that I don't quite remember the incident or rather the motivation for the attack at the Gundani bus stop.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Wills, I think that the reasons have been stated in the applicant's affidavit.  If he wants to refresh his mind, let him do so.  Or if you could come to his assistance by leading him on certain things, which really are ...

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you very much Ms Committee member, what I appreciate at this stage, there is and there are as the Committee can see, an enormous amount of incidents at this stage.  I wonder if I could be given the opportunity to consult with Mr Mkhize now, it is just about tea time.  If I could ask if we could take the tea adjournment at this stage, it would assist greatly, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I see that it is ten to eleven, and to enable you to consult with your client, we will take the tea adjournment and then we will commence - how long will you need Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: I am sure I will be ready by quarter past eleven, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We will recommence then at, let's make it twenty past eleven, take half an hour now.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, are you ready to proceed?

BRIAN QUNA MKHIZE: (still under oath)

MR WILLS: (continued)  Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson, we appreciate that indulgence, thank you.  Mr Mkhize, before the break we were just about to commence the incidents in which you were involved.
	Now, the first one you have listed in your affidavit is at paragraph 46, page 96 of the record.  That is the attack on ANC members at Gundani bus stop.  Can you explain the circumstances of this attack to the Committee members and the members of the public?