Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-14

GEORGE BIZOS: We go further, question 53.
"Which aware, not aware and non-members of the CCB were involved in this project and to what degree?
		See 51 above."
Lies again repeated and then question no 54:
"What was the budget for this project and how much was paid out?"
Again:	"See 51 above."
Another repetition of the lie when you well knew that you had authorised money and it had actually been paid out.  Any comment as to why you repeated that lie?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson I've already explained to you in which context this happened.  There was a fight between the existing Government and our structure.  Within an audited procedure within a total structure and where the Government had control over us, our lives and also over these specific circumstances, at that stage there was supposed to have been amnesty given to us and this was disputed.  There was - people were sacked and we were prevented from getting to our premises and within this context, these questions were answered and at the end of the day, the question is also:  why was it handled in this way?  This is part of what I have said here already.

GEORGE BIZOS: What prompted you to apply for amnesty, Mr Verster?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: So that I could function within the law, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Your personal motivation, was it to clear your conscience?  Was it to make peace with your victims?  Was it for the purposes of unburdening of the dark truths that were within your mind, what was the purpose?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: So that I could meet the requirements of the Act, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: To avoid prosecution, that was your only purpose?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I think that is the reason why anyone would apply for amnesty.

GEORGE BIZOS: No I don't think that that's the reason that everybody applies for amnesty, but you have just answered the correctness of Minister Omar's statement, that it appeared to him that the only reason why you applied for amnesty was in order to avoid prosecution, so whatever criticisms may be of his statement by anybody, you seem to have confirmed that, Mr Verster.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I do not agree with this at all.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you Mr Chairman, we have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Bizos.  Mr Williams, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the applicant?

MR VAN ECK: Mr Chairman may I just before, I don't want to interrupt here, I've been requested by the officials that guard Mr Barnard, to request yourself whether the proceedings can adjourn at quarter to four because of the transport and the logistics, so I just want to mention this at an opportune time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  They were good enough to bring him here by 9 o'clock, so we'll meet them.  We'll adjourn at quarter to four, if there's no strong objection to that.  So Mr Williams, you may as well start now.  We may as well use this last quarter of an hour.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Verster, Mr Bizos referred you to some of the documentation, Bundle B, 64 and I've also got some questions pertaining to that.

MR LAX: This is the same statement we've been dealing with.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you.  Mr Verster, I want to refer you to question 11, your answer to that.  Can you read that again to the Commission?
MR VERSTER
"The purpose of the CCB was to collect intelligence within and outside RSA with regard to the enemies of the RSA, more specifically ANC, PAC, SWAPO as well as the Communist Party.  With regard to the ANC, it was more specifically the military wing of the ANC."

MR WILLIAMS: Now is this correct?  Was the purpose of the CCB to gather specialist information?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, I've already explained earlier that this was in dispute with the old Government, this is what they wanted to write and on my insistence we said that we were to give execution and that is why the following paragraph was added.

MR WILLIAMS: Is the answer as stipulated in this document, is that correct?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is just a descriptive method of exactly the same purpose.

MR WILLIAMS: Was the purpose of the CCB to gather information inside South Africa?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: There was combat intelligence for our actions, when one reads it with the first paragraph, along with - it was also - the purpose was to give execution then one would say that this is combat intelligence.  This was not our work to do the police's work in the country, but because of our actions, it was correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Perhaps I should also refer you to the context of this statement.  Would you mind reading the sentence that adjoins that one?
MR VERSTER
"The purpose was also to give execution to actions against such enemies outside the country where no other Security Forces had access."

MR WILLIAMS: Now would you agree with me that this paragraph contains a distinction between your functions inside South Africa and outside?  You are saying:  "Inside, our purpose was to gather information, inside and outside."

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That's correct, but I explained it earlier why it was explained as such.

MR WILLIAMS: But then with regard to the purpose of your outside mission, you used the word "optrede" and you underlined that word "optrede".

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct.  To focus thereupon that we functioned primarily outside the country but there were many explanation and documentations.  Comments were handed in or it was part of investigations which explained that if the enemies of South Africa came from outside the country into the country, then this could lead eventually to actions because one could not distinguish between areas in a revolutionary war.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Verster, you're playing with words.  A plain reading of this paragraph shows that the purpose of the CCB was to gather information inside and outside South Africa, but in addition to that, it was also to conduct certain operations outside South Africa.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes, but I stand by it, Chairperson, that when one takes this together, then it boils down to the same objective and that was, there was a reason why it was explained so cautiously at that time, because the Government of the day, who had control over us, did not want to put it as it was.

MR WILLIAMS: Maybe I should ask you to explain.  What do you mean by the gathering of specialist information?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Combat information, for example about the Early Learning Centre, exactly what it was, where it was, what it looks like, which would lead eventually to action or general information about targets or the enemy.

MR WILLIAMS: Is there a purpose why the word specialist was used?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, I think because we were part of Special Forces and that may be what the approach was of the advocate who had advised us.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you explain to the Commission how specialist information was obtained?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: This was done by people who had infiltrated enemy areas or had interviews with people and had compared this to information that we had obtained from the rest of the Intelligence community because we were an element of the South African Intelligence community and we had liaison with the normal police and it was added to that and that's how we got our information.

MR WILLIAMS: So can I gather from the answer that you never depended solely on the information that informers might have given to you?  That that information was always cross-checked with the relevant structures that existed?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: There was a distinction between information and intelligence.  Intelligence is processed information, so we did not take our information just from one channel and just dealt on it, it has to be confirmed first.

MR WILLIAMS: So is that also what you meant by your earlier answer to Mr Bizos that the information was disseminated?