Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-02-17

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: When we met to discuss this question, because I am the one who had summoned him and informed that Sicelo had been gone, disappeared for two weeks and when we enquired from these other cell members they did not know where he was.  And according to the rules if you are going to be away for more than a day you had to report and that was when he told us that we had to look for him, investigate his whereabouts.

MR RICHARD: So this was some two weeks after, or approximately two weeks after the date in October that he went missing, 1987?  Do I understand you correctly?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: What did you do to find the deceased?  What exactly did you do to find out what he was doing and where he was?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: What I did, at that time I was no longer a full-time member of Sosco and I was not attending school full-tine, but Sipho used to go to other areas as an executive member of Sosco.  I requested him to actually inform him in case he met him in these areas that he went to, to contact me and to come to me and report to me what was going on in his life.

MR RICHARD: What was the relationship between Sipho and the deceased?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I can say they were friends, they were close friends more than they were comrades.

MR RICHARD: Now by this stage you had visited the Dhlomo household, is that not correct?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Do you refer to the period when he disappeared?

MR RICHARD: By the time that the deceased some two three weeks after the October arrest had so to speak disappeared according to your version, had you already visited the Dhlomo household?

CHAIRPERSON: He has told us that he visited it before October.

MR RICHARD: Now did you go to the Dhlomo household and ask them where their son is?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: No, I did not.

MR RICHARD: Did Sipho say that he had gone there?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: ...(no English translation)

MR RICHARD: And I've already put it to you and I'm going to put it to you a second time to make sure that you stand by your answer, you say it is incorrect that you went to the Detainees Parents Support Committee's offices at that time and spoke to the deceased, after the disappearance.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I did not say that, you said it to me.

MR RICHARD: Well what did ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I want you to clarify this.  Do you say you did not deny going to the displaced parents offices in October, November, December?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I repeat, the question was: "Have you been to the DPSC?" and I said yes, and you asked me if I know where it is and I said yes, and you asked you if I've ever been there and I said yes, and you asked me if during October or November 1987 did I go there to speak to Sicelo and I said no.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not go there in October/November 1987, October/November/December?  You did not ...(indistinct)

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were never ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.

CHAIRPERSON: And you went on to say you were never there during that period, that if a witness came and said you had been there the witness would be lying, is that what you told us?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you deny that you were ever at this place in the months October, November or December 1987, the DPSC offices in Khotso House?  Is that clear?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, I still maintain that.

MR RICHARD: Very well, but didn't you think that was a logical place to go and look for the deceased?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: My approach at that had changed because I did not want to associate or to go and frequent places where I knew that the police may be.

MR RICHARD: Did you send Sipho or suggest to Sipho that he should go and look there, or phone there anonymously?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: As I mentioned before, I did not do anything of that, I just asked Sipho to look for him.  I was not specific as to where he should look for him. But because he was in the Sosco leadership I thought that they might meet in their meetings and he would report back to me whether he had found him or not, but I did not ask him specifically to look at those areas.

MR RICHARD: So you attached no great urgency to this search and I don't hear that any great effort was made to find the deceased, is that correct, is my inference correct?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't know what you mean.  What I can say is that I did not go out running looking for him because I was not aware of where to look for him in the first place.

CHAIRPERSON: And you didn't tell Sipho to go out running either, you just if he meets him at the meetings of the Soweto Student's he must give him a message to come and see you, is that so?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: That is true.

MR RICHARD: Do you think a thorough search was made for Sicelo?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I do not think that we looked for him thoroughly.

MR RICHARD: And if I put it to you that he was in fact easily found if people made an effort, would you disagree with me?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I would not dispute that.  I also had my own duties to take care of and I would not have gone running after somebody who knew very well that he had to report.

CHAIRPERSON: This reporting, how often did you used to meet?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: We did not meet regularly.

CHAIRPERSON: Well how often?  You say he knew he had to report, how often would you expect him to report?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: That did not mean that he had to report personally, he could have left a message.

CHAIRPERSON: How often would you expect him to do that?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: As often as possible.

CHAIRPERSON: And where would he report or leave a message.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: He knew where my base was.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was it?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: At Emdeni.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he do this regularly before he disappeared?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: All of them did report regularly.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say Sicelo reported regularly and then suddenly from October onwards there was this complete cut-out, was that the position?

DR TSOTSI: Did you say that members of the unit ...(intervention)

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: That is what I meant.

DR TSOTSI: Did you say members had to meet, had to report if they were away for more than one day?  Did I hear you say that in your evidence, that if ever a member of your unit was going to be away some place for more than one day, he had to report?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: What I'm explaining or what I said was, if a member was aware that he would be away for more than a day he would have to report.  I did not say that they should meet, but that particular person would have to inform me that they would be absent.

DR TSOTSI: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: Did you make any effort to find out whether the deceased might or might not have been in custody at that time?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: No, I did not.

MR RICHARD: Did it occur to you that it might have been a possibility?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Nothing was impossible at the time.

MR RICHARD: Right, let's go to the afternoon and day of the 24th of January.  You say on that Sunday morning the deceased came to your house.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now was your house your base?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: No, it was not.

MR RICHARD: Where was your base?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: It is a distance from my home, but I left a message at the base that I was going home.

MR RICHARD: Now do you know who Joe is?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: No.

MR RICHARD: Do you know a house in Naledi?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: No.

MR RICHARD: Have you ever been to a house occupied by a person called Joe?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: No, I've never been there.

MR RICHARD: Now when Mr Dube gave evidence yesterday and he said there was a house in Naledi run by a man called Joe at which a base was situated, you know nothing about that?