Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-30

MR GORDHAN: I actually put it to you that he never told you that, that those people were never visited by you or interrogated in any way whatsoever.  In other words Mr Ndaba never told you everything?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I cannot confirm Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: Thank you.  Where did he indicate what was a rendezvous point between myself and him?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Gordhan, is this - it doesn't seem to be relevant to the subject matter of the application namely the torture upon yourself.  You know what Mr Ndaba did and what he told them, how relevant is that going to be for us in arriving at a decision in this matter?

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, these are all facts that the public is not aware of.  The relevance is the fact that Mr Ndaba's arrest led subsequently to my arrest.  As the other Committee  Members will confirm for you, Chairperson, the timing of the arrest and whether he was an informer or not are highly contentious matters in the full range of hearings that are before the Committee at this point in time.  It is not my intention to test your patience, I hope it is not your intention to stop me from trying to explore particulars ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But there's got to be some sort of limit, we can't sit here on all sorts of surrounding or matters that haven't got - that have no direct impact on the actual subject matter of the application.  I'll give you freeway but please bear in mind we've got other applicants to come and we have a time ...(intervention)

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, I don't mean to be discourteous, but I think you'll be doing me and the country a disservice if we're not given an adequate opportunity to address.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, proceed.

MR GORDHAN: Because the last thing I'd like is the impression to be created, Chairperson, that the ex-policemen have a free ride ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It's not that at all, it's just a question of being relevant to the matter.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, if I may say, it is very interesting to me that I sit here as an amnesty applicant and the same Mr Gordhan opposite is not an amnesty applicant.  Nowhere ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Let's not get into an argument.  Mr Gordhan, you may proceed with your questioning.

MR GORDHAN: Just for the record, Chairperson, I am an amnesty applicant, I'm one of about 37 ANC persons who applied en bloc for amnesty and I suppose when your Committee gets to that point you have to do the same with me as well?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan, you may carry on.

MR GORDHAN: Mr Botha, you indicated earlier that you raided the flat at Brickfield and you indicated that you extracted information from there.  What information in relation to what became known as Operation Vula did you take from that flat?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I'm now going to object.  We are wandering so far afield now, with great respect, these matters weren't even asked in the Ndaba matter, Chairperson.  With respect, I must object to these questions.

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, it obviously - this line of questioning will invite the kind of objection that we've just heard.  The relevance here is to check whether the information being placed before the Committee, even if they haven't been tested before are in fact valid and whether there's been full disclosure?  Surely these things must be tested in some form?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, in reply ...(intervention)

MR GORDHAN: That is the flat in question that I operated from.  I knew what was in that flat, I knew what I had left there, I was the joint secretary of the Vula Committee in the greater Durban area and I know what information was where, up to a point and surely the Committee must be interested in that?

MR VISSER: Chairperson in reply, Mr Gordhan has now illustrated to us that it has absolutely no relevance to his assault and my objection stands Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: So see, Chairperson, my assault was in the course of interrogation.  Interrogation was about extracting information from me and this is about information but I leave it to your ruling, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You see it's common cause that you were arrested and interrogated.  The applicants do not apply for amnesty in respect of the arrest but only in respect of the assault performed upon you and Mr Lalla during the interrogation so as far as the relevance is concerned in this particular matter for this Committee, all that we're focusing on is whether or not there's been a full disclosure in respect of the actual assault.

MR GORDHAN: No Chairperson, I will accept your ruling with the reservation that I am in fact being limited in my rights in this matter but let's leave that for now.
	Mr Botha, let's take you back to Bethlehem and the day on which you said you came into the office where I was present with Mr Duhr and Mr Bothma and you used the words as it was translated to me in English that you worked with me and that I was not prepared to supply information.  Mr Botha, you hardly spent three minutes in that office when you walked in?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I spent about ten minutes there with you.

MR GORDHAN: Mr Botha, I put it to you that all you said, you asked - fired a couple of questions, swore at me and walked out.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: You then said to the Committee that you then decided to use coercion.  Even if you take your version of ten minutes being used to question me and it wasn't only about the so-called hour that you questioned me, your decision to apply coercion was a very swift one?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.  Your attitude was aggressive and one of arrogance and you did not want to cooperate and my decision was to use violence to extract information from you.

MR GORDHAN: Well, I put it to you that I was extremely calm, I was extremely collected, I was certainly not arrogant and I certainly didn't cooperate.  Will that be a fairer description?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson except for the last statement there.

MR GORDHAN: Well the word cooperation for us means different things as you know, being detainee and security policeman but I still submit to you that you spent less than three minutes there.
	Let's move to another point on the day.  At about 5 or 5.30 it began to become dark on the day on which the assault took place.  These are the events that took place as I remember them and I'm putting them to you.  You were not there at the beginning when the two gentlemen who were with me asked me to stand up, face the window of that particular office and then walked out of the office.  Subsequently, within that half a minute or so a hood was put over my head and I was wrapped in something, some rope or equivalent was tied around me.  I was dropped very gently to the ground.  The hood was lifted to cover only my eyes so I could only recognise you by your voice and you then used not the hood or a towel as you suggested, but you actually used some rubber or plastic material to suffocate me by covering my nose and mouth.  Is that a fair description of the events that you were aware of?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: As far as it is applicable to me, yes.

MR GORDHAN: Do you recall your extreme aggression and violent mood, the swearing and abusing that you subjected to me at that time?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR GORDHAN: Did you remember the fact that you said that I would never see my family again?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is possible.

MR GORDHAN: Was it your intention at that point in time to carry on the torture up to the point that you might have killed me?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, that is a general statement to make.

MR GORDHAN: I beg your pardon?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I said this was a general statement to make.  In order to influence you that I was serious.