Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-11

MR DEHAL: And finally, in regard to the Why Not aspect, I know my learned colleague, Mr Richard, talked about the second time and again the first time and I'm not too sure if you understood, I certainly didn't, when you got back to the Marine Parade and you drove along the Marine Parade, did that take place once, twice?  How many times?  That's with Robert, Greta and yourself.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: The three of us in the vehicle we drove along the Marine Parade once I think.

MR DEHAL: Yes.  And after that drive you got back to the Hyper House and Home, if I understand it.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: And there picked up the blue Ford Cortina, got to Pine Street where you parked.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Right.

MR DEHAL: And Greta and Robert then went off.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: And then when Robert came back on foot to you at the Pine Street spot, he then drove to where Greta was parked.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: And you said he waved to Greta to come off the bay.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

MR DEHAL: And then Robert parked the vehicle with the bomb in that bay.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

MR DEHAL: That's when you gave him the numberplate, he pulled the pin and showed it to you.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: So there was no going around the Marine Parade again?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, no.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  That is all thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DEHAL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Richard, just on this one point about - I'm not opening the cross-examination all over again, just on this one point about Mr Klein being shot?

MR RICHARD: May it please, Chairperson.  The fact that they alluded to this statement doesn't mean that I'm going to cross-examine him on his police statement, even though I might in another fora have had that privilege.  I think the only question to ask has been asked, when was it?  I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Adv Sigodi, have you got any questions you'd like to ask?

ADV SIGODI: There's just one aspect I want to clarify.
	You say after you had left the car bomb at the Why Not bar you then went to the top of Ridge Road, where you stopped near the Ridge Road Police Station and Robert said he wanted to establish which the cops were going.  He was concerned that we may have cordoned ourselves within the circle thrown around the town.  Now when you got there to Ridge Road, did Gordon say - sorry, did Mr McBride say why he was concerned about the cops? - what he was scared of.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I can't remember exactly what he had said, but gathered that it was to avoid being caught in a roadblock or...

ADV SIGODI: And did he say this in the presence of Greta?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, Greta was in the car at the time.

ADV SIGODI: Did you talk about the car bomb at Ridge Road, did you talk about it?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, we did not discuss it.

ADV SIGODI: You did not discuss it.  Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Judge Pillay, do you have any questions you'd like ask?

JUDGE PILLAY: Yes.  Mr Lecordier, when you first were recruited to political activity in Wentworth, what was your educational qualifications at the time?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: At the time I had left school in standard five, so I'd say standard four.

JUDGE PILLAY: And you never improved your education at that stage?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I did go back to night school at Fairvale School, Judge.

JUDGE PILLAY: After this?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, before joining MK.

JUDGE PILLAY: So by the time Mr McBride's trial was on, what were your qualifications then?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: It was still the same, standard four.

JUDGE PILLAY: Standard four.  Did you perhaps know that by the time you gave evidence, you were no longer held under Section 29, which entitled you to the assistance of an attorney or legal representation?  Or didn't you know that?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I didn't have an idea about things like that.

JUDGE PILLAY: And the pressure you felt being brought to bear on you, to testify against Mr McBride, was that only in respect of his trial and to get his conviction, or what was the position?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Judge, can you rephrase that for me please.

JUDGE PILLAY: You know you say you felt pressure into testifying against him.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

JUDGE PILLAY: Was it intended by the policemen, as you interpret it, that once you testified against him and they were able to secure a conviction and the appropriate sentence that they wanted, that you were no longer in danger and your family was no longer in danger?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That was explained to me by the police, but I personally felt that my family was in danger and I was in danger.

JUDGE PILLAY: Even despite you doing what they wanted?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

JUDGE PILLAY: Why?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I just felt that way at the time, Judge.  I even - I was feeling pressure from, actually from both  sides for turning against my comrade, for betraying them.

JUDGE PILLAY: You see, compared to your evidence against Mr McBride, your testimony today is quite different and I just want to test that and I may ask one or two awkward questions of you.  You then say - were you released after you testified, or what was the position?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I was released.

JUDGE PILLAY: And where did you go to?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: The police took me to Cape Town.

JUDGE PILLAY: Why did you feel that you had to be under their protection then?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: It's not something I felt, Judge, it's the way they used to speak to me and stuff like that.  I felt that it was better if I remain under their protection because they were impressing upon me that the people will be out to get me for what I had done.

JUDGE PILLAY: And how long did this feeling of suppression last?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: For a long time.

JUDGE PILLAY: Can you give an indication till when?  Or is it still like that?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: The thing is it still exists, Judge.

JUDGE PILLAY: You see why I ask that question is because at some time during their - let's put it this way, while you were under their influence you refused to become an informer against the Unions.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

JUDGE PILLAY: Now what strikes me is that you were able to resist it then and yet on other occasions you say you can't ..(indistinct)

MATTHEW LECORDIER: The occasions meaning at the trial?

JUDGE PILLAY: Well look, you say even after you testified you felt that you were still subject to their whims and fancies and you went to Cape Town and you felt safe with them, you took money etc.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: It wasn't my choice to go to Cape Town, Judge.

JUDGE PILLAY: Ja, you felt you had to go because they insisted.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: They insisted on it.

JUDGE PILLAY: Now up to that stage well and good.  If you're struggling with this suppression, can you explain how is it you were able to resist their request or their instruction to become an informer against the Unions?  How is it that you felt powerful enough to say no, I'm not going to be an informer, then, against the Unions, but yet on other occasions you felt you had to succumb?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Judge, because in my heart I knew that that is not what I wanted to do and I had got tired of their attitude towards me.

JUDGE PILLAY: One last question.  Mr Abrahams, Mr Pearce and Mr July, were they teachers or principals or in any way involved in education?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I think maybe two of those names mentioned were teachers or principals, I'm not sure which.

JUDGE PILLAY: And as police reservists?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: As police reservists and as Labour Party members.

JUDGE PILLAY: They were all?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

JUDGE PILLAY: I was just enquiring about their teaching connection and connection to the police.  Were they?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, they were.

JUDGE PILLAY: All of them?  Either one or the other.