Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-15

MR MALINDI: Thank you very much Chairperson.  Thank you also for bringing to our attention certain of the aspects relating to the life span and other things about the Amnesty Committee.  Chairperson, today we propose to call members of the families of the four people that disappeared in this matter.  Chairperson, they are going to be very short witnesses, I don't propose to make an opening address because the purpose of their testimony will come out of their own evidence.  Briefly, it is just to establish that contact was maintained, though erratic, between the disappeared and their families and that from December 1987 none of them made further contact with their families and our submission will therefore be that were they returned into Lesotho, they would have made some contact as they used to before and that is the basis on calling the witnesses and I hope that it is necessary, we believe it is necessary to call them, Chairperson.
	Chairperson then in as far as Ngulelo Ngono, the evidence that will be led will indicate that he had contact with his family post December 1987 and that our submission in that respect will be that he was not taken to Ladybrand in December, but his disappearance was as a result of subsequent operations and not related to the other three.  Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you going to call the families as we have it on record, in other words starting with Ms Betty Boom, Nomasonto, Tax and then lastly Ngono?

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, not in that order.  I propose to call Mrs Mokhele first.

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Mrs Mokhele, could you tell the Committee how you are related to one of the people who disappeared in this matter?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: The person who disappeared is my son's child.  It happened that in 1987 two male persons arrived with a car at my house and I was outside.  They brought the child and a suitcase.  I was outside.  They entered through the gate.  They greeted us and inquired as to whether it's Mokhele's place, then we said yes.  They said:  "We've come here."  Then I made them to enter the house, then I called Mr Mokhele to inform him that there are guests.  He greeted them.  They gave us a letter, then I gave it Mr Mokhele, he read the letter.  The letter - they said that ...(indistinct) wanted us to have the baby, then we welcomed the child.  Then the second letter was produced, that we should give it to Mr Mashiya, then we told them to take the letter themselves.  They left to Mr Mashiya's place.

MR MALINDI: Mr Mokhele do you remember the date on which the child was delivered at your place?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: It was on the 24th of December.

MR MALINDI: Did you yourself read the letter?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: My husband read the letter.  I ...(indistinct) the letter, even when my son arrived, I showed him the letter to read.

MR LAX: Sorry, please just repeat that, you cut off the first part inadvertently.  We can't hear you.

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: After my husband read the letter, ...

INTERPRETER: I'm repeating the same answer, I asked her to repeat.

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: After my husband had read the letter, I put the letter aside and then when my son arrived I showed him the letter to read.  That is all.

MR MALINDI: The son that you are referring to, who is that?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: That is Tsietsi.

MR MALINDI: When you say when he arrived, where did he arrive from?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: He was from exile.

MR LAX: Sorry, when did he arrive from exile?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: If I'm not mistaken it was somewhere in 1993 during Chris Hani's funeral or death.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Malindi.  Mr Visser any cross-examination?

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Mrs Mokhele, who do you regard as the person who is representing you at these hearings, or the persons representing you at these hearings?  Who is speaking on your behalf?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: I don't understand the question.

MR VISSER: Who is your representative here?  Listen carefully Mrs Mokhele, the question is, there are two legal
counsels whom you are sitting between them, who is representing you between the two?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: The one who is on the right-hand side.

CHAIRPERSON: But she's indicating with her left-hand, am I correct.

INTERPRETER: Yes, indicating to the left, but actually she is saying on the right-hand side.

CHAIRPERSON: Show us by hand.

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: The one I'm pointing at.

CHAIRPERSON: Pointing at Adv Malindi.

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: Yes, Malindi.

MR VISSER: And also Mr Koopedi, he's your attorney, not so?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And Mr Mapoma, is he representing you?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: Yes.

MR VISSER: So did you tell all three these representatives what you know about this case?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: I hope I told them.

MR VISSER: Did you tell them that there were two letters that you know about?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: Yes, there were two letters.

MR VISSER: And the fact that that was never put to any of the applicants, I take it you have no explanation for that not happening?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: I believe they knew, because I told them.

MR VISSER: Alright.  What precisely - well you were asked, the first question you were asked in your evidence today was that you were related to one of the persons who disappeared, do you remember that?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: Yes.

MR VISSER: But you never told us who this person was that disappeared.  Who was it?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: Sonti Mashiya.

MR VISSER: And is that your son's child?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: Yes.

MR VISSER: You see I think there's a little confusion, may I try to assist you?  Isn't what you're really saying that Nomasonto Mashiya was your son's wife and your son's child is the child that was brought to you by the two unknown male persons, is that not really what you're saying?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: Yes, that is true.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Now this letter that these two gentlemen - incidentally, did you know them from before, the two gentlemen that came with the child?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: I did not know them Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did they tell you where they were from?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: They told me that they are from Lesotho.

MR VISSER: Did they tell you what work they did?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: They said they were comrades.  They were sent by Sonti to bring the child.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And they gave you two letters, I understand, is that correct?  The one letter you accepted and the other one you said you must take that to Mr Mashiya yourself, is that correct?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Now we're just going to talk about the one letter that you took from them.  This is the letter that you said Mr Mokhele read.  Now that Mr Mokhele is not your son, that is your husband?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: Yes.  That is correct, that was my husband.

MR VISSER: How did he read it?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: He has since died.

MR VISSER: Aright.  How did he read it?  Did he read it out aloud or did he read it for himself?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: He was reading the letter aloud.  That is where the letter was saying that Sonti is sending the child home and the child's name was Mosana Reginald and then even then the child's age appeared, you know, was read from the letter.  If we were not at home, he should be taken at Mashiya's place.

MR VISSER: Mrs Mokhele, in what language was this letter written?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: In Sotho.  The letter was written in Sotho.

MR VISSER: Did your husband understand Sotho?

SIPOLOLO MARIA MOKHELE: That's correct, Chairperson.