Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-13

MR VISSER: Indeed Mr Chairman.  I was going to refer to that separately but I can do it straight away.
	Who spoke - in this meeting between you and Willem Schoon, who spoke about knock-out drops for the first time?

DIRK COETZEE: I spoke about it Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: So, if somebody were to say that Schoon called you in on this occasion and told you to go and fetch knock-out drops without you having asked for them, that - for the knock-out drops, that would be incorrect I suppose?

DIRK COETZEE: Can you just repeat the question please?

MR VISSER: If somebody were to say that when Schoon spoke to you on this occasion when you received the instruction, that he told you out of his own to go and fetch knock-out drops from General Neethling, that would be incorrect?

DIRK COETZEE: Incorrect, I told him that I needed knock-out drops.

MR VISSER: Thank you, thank you.  Will you please turn to page 103 of Bundle 2, I'm referring to the second last paragraph
"During early November I was summoned by Brigadier Schoon whilst in Pretoria, to collect knock-out drops from ...[indistinct] Neethling which he arranged"

DIRK COETZEE: Can you just - excuse me, I'm just seeing the car that you just now said I didn't mention in this affidavit, here's a reference to the car.
"During the trip to Port Elizabeth we also discussed leaving his vehicle in Swaziland to"
...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Mr Coetzee, I'm going to stop you because that wasn't the question which I placed in dispute.

DIRK COETZEE: Yes Sir, but I ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: I placed in dispute that you saw the car in Jeffrey's Bay please.  Now just answer my question.

DIRK COETZEE: No, but you said it was never mentioned in this ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway Mr Coetzee, just for the time being - you can mention that later but for the time being just refer to this paragraph to which Mr Visser is referring.

DIRK COETZEE: Can Mr Visser just read ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: I'm not going to read it again, I read it to you before and you weren't concentrating.

CHAIRPERSON: It's page ....[intervention]

MR VISSER: What is your reaction to this paragraph?

CHAIRPERSON: It's page 103, the penultimate paragraph.

DIRK COETZEE: Ja, it's not put correctly Mr Chairman, it gives the impression that Schoon said I must go and collect knock-out drops, it doesn't give the right impression.

MR VISSER: Mr Coetzee, it doesn't give the impression, it says so.  And why isn't ...[intervention]

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Coetzee, was this the first time you spoke to Schoon about knock-out drops?

DIRK COETZEE: No, not at all, the first was in October with the Vuzi and Peter incident Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: All of that is of course on the assumption that Mr Kondile was eliminated after you eliminated - according to you, Mr Vuzi and Peter not so?

DIRK COETZEE: He was Mr ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Yes, you say so.  At page 115 of volume 2, there's now a radical change in that evidence, is there not because there you come back to the story that you asked Brigadier Schoon for the knock-out drops.

ADV DE JAGER: The reference please?

MR VISSER: I have the reference here as page 115 Volume 2 Mr Chairman, my reference may be wrong.

JUDGE PILLAY: Why are the two aspects contradictory you say?

MR VISSER: Well, in the one - and we made it quite clear in the question, in the one Mr Coetzee says he was the man who broached the subject of the knock-out drops, in the other it now becomes Brigadier Schoon.  And you see the relevance of this is we are talking about what the instructions were.
	Because you see Mr Chairman, I'm going to argue - you must listen Mr Coetzee, I'm going to argue that the knock-out drops were later imported - and the references are clear and I'll take you through them in argument, were later imported to add something to the instruction to which Mr Coetzee had bound himself originally to relate to Mr Kondile and that's where the knock-out drops story comes from in his so-called instruction from Schoon.

JUDGE PILLAY: I must say Mr Visser, my reading of it is it's not contradictory.

MR VISSER: All right, well that's of course ...[intervention]

JUDGE PILLAY: If you want to attend to that please.

DIRK COETZEE: The knock-out drops story is confirmed by Mr van Rensburg in the application before this Committee where he said a sleep - he calls it a sleeping substance was added to his drink.

MR VISSER: Mr Coetzee, I'm not going to allow you to bring me off track.  Let's just ask this last question on the knock-out drops.  You know, this has remained a fascinating story.  It's powder which is poison, am I right?  And it's knock-out drops which is a chloroform, an anaesthetic, is that correct?

DIRK COETZEE: That was the first one with Sizwe - with Peter and Vuzi Mr Chairman, that's correct.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And the powder never worked at all?

DIRK COETZEE: The powder never worked at all.

MR VISSER: Yes, poor General Neethling didn't know how to make a poison in powder form that's for sure.

DIRK COETZEE: A very bad poison, that's correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Very bad poison.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And the knock-out drops, that didn't work either?

DIRK COETZEE: Not to the effect that you could put it a person's liquor and that he will fall asleep and that you can then remove him from one place to another to get him out of another country because he wasn't asleep as such.

MR VISSER: Yes. When ...[intervention]

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr - excuse Mr Coetzee, tell me, you made a request or you informed Schoon that  you needed this sleeping agency in relation to the Kondile matter, how did you get that sleeping agency into your hands?

DIRK COETZEE: How did I get that ...[intervention]

JUDGE PILLAY: How did you receive it in order to use it?

DIRK COETZEE: I went in person to General Lotnal Neethling who wouldn't give it to you without the - I can't say instruction because he had a higher rank, but with the confirmation of my superior officer to him.

JUDGE PILLAY: So how did you know to go to him in order to collect it?

DIRK COETZEE: Well, I've collected before and I knew that he specialised in making substances like that after the Fox Street siege that they had in Jo'burg, to put on food and in drinks that they would import for ...[intervention]

JUDGE PILLAY: I accept that but in the Kondile matter when you finally went to go and fetch the sleeping agency, how did you know that you must go and collect it on that day?

DIRK COETZEE: Because it was needed for Sizwe Kondile.

JUDGE PILLAY: I know it was needed for that.

DIRK COETZEE: Kondile matter.

JUDGE PILLAY: How did you know it was available?

DIRK COETZEE: He always had it available Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: No I think the question is, when he said: "How did you know"?, did Mr Schoon tell him that you would be coming for it or did you phone Mr Neethling that you will be coming for it and you're authorised or ...[intervention]

DIRK COETZEE: Mr Schoon - sorry, informed General Neethling that I would be coming to pick it up on my request.

MR VISSER: Perhaps to make the last question absolutely beyond doubt, are you saying Brigadier Schoon organised the drop-out drugs - knock out drops?

DIRK COETZEE: I don't know what you exactly mean by organised, he authorised it that I could pick it up.

MR VISSER: You don't understand what the word organise means?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[indistinct] you're content with the word authorised?

MR VISSER: No, Mr Chairman, I want to know whether he knows what the word organised means.

DIRK COETZEE: If you as a person organised on your own accord anything ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Yes.  Now did Brigadier Schoon organise the knock-out drops?

DIRK COETZEE: He authorised it.  He phone General Neethling and authorised it for him to give me the knock-out drops.

MR VISSER: So you refuse to answer my question?

DIRK COETZEE: I've answered your question.