Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: I am not sure that it will be possible to answer this question in general because nobody was accused in general. There would be specific instances. You might find an instance for instance, where the intelligence, security organs discover that somebody had infiltrated poison into food or water, in a particular camp, for the purpose of killing people. When obviously such a person was identified, then the person would of course be apprehended and a process of interrogation would take place. The tribunals would then hear such evidence as would be presented to them. The person accused would have a defence lawyer, some of them are present in this room who played that role. Then the tribunal then would have to be satisfied that from the evidence presented, as it were, by the prosecution, there's a substantial case. That would be a particular thing.
Or you might have, as we have indicated in some of those lists, people who were executed for having committed murder and/or rape. Those are people who would have been caught doing that, and evidence collected from other people, including victims in the case of rape. So as we would collect that evidence as normally as is possible, and as extensively as possible, and therefore present it to the tribunal.
So I am saying that with regard to the issue, what prima facie evidence would be, I think it would vary from case to case.
Certain cases of mutiny, when people actually mutinied, but beyond mutiny, participating in that mutiny, actually kill other soldiers and commanders in the camp. The evidence is them shooting and killing other people, and the whole camp will say this is what happened and this one was shooting and so on. Again, which evidence would again be brought in front of the tribunal.
So in all instances there would be an effort to present a case to a tribunal, which was independent of the political structures, acted on its own, took its own decisions, therefore to present such evidence as would convince the tribunal that indeed that the accused person is guilty.
But I think one would have to deal with each individual case to answer the question, what prima facie evidence existed, because it would vary from individual to individual.

MR VALLY: Thank you. I want to focus on the 22 people I have referred to, who were executed for mutiny. How was this tribunal constituted, the one which condemned them to death?

UNKNOWN: I am trying to see which one of my lawyer friends has got the best memory. You see there were different tribunals, so I am asking Penwill Maduna who participated in this process as to give some of this detail, which I suspect is also contained in this document. Penwill?

MR VALLY: Just to get some clarity, I am talking about before the Code of Conduct, in 1985. I am talking about - I am afraid there is no numbering on this page, but in the confidential index there is a list of people, starting from 1982 to 1985. This is what was called the "Confidential Index". Unfortunately there were no page numbers. It is headed -
"Agents executed on order of tribunals."

UNKNOWN: You have, we don't.

MR VALLY: Oh, I see. About a third of the way through, I think it should be marked in there. Is it marked? It is headed
"Agents executed on order of tribunals."

CHAIRPERSON: Please switch on the mike?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Is that the one from '82 to '85?

MR VALLY: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: May I just warn you that when we are alive on radio and so on, so when you are whispering amongst yourselves it would be prudent to switch off.

UNKNOWN: Thank you. Thank you very much.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Chairperson, I have just looked at the list of names. To the best of my recollection I was in the Revolutionary Council at that time, and one of the first names there then is able to give me some guidance. I have just been exchanging views with Comrade Mhlanthla who was also in the Revolutionary Council.
This particular set of individuals were apprehended at different moments as a result of coming across information as to their activity. We were actually surprised by the level of activity. It was the first massive evidence of infiltration in our ranks. To the best of my recollection we certainly sent at least one member of the Revolutionary Council to Luanda. I recall one of the Revolutionary Council members as we apprehended each one in different parts of Africa, we accompanied them to Luanda, so that they could be tried there.
This was the beginning of the process of setting up tribunals. I cannot remember the precise names of those who were in charge of the operation. Certainly at least one member of the Revolutionary Council went to Luanda to participate in confronting these alleged enemy agents with the evidence and then determining what should happen to them.
The information on the list of names in 1984/1985 would begin to reach a period where we were most - were beginning to move towards a settled form of tribunals. Again, it is possible that '84, '85 had James Stewart involved in that, because the Revolutionary Council would have sent him there. 	Moses Mabida would have been in the early batch and John Motsabe would have been in the early batch of Revolutionary Council members who were sent to Luanda. '85, I am not able to remember those names.
Part of the problem is that we are just looking at these names straight off the cuff, and sometimes I remember them under their student names rather than the names that are presented here.

MR VALLY: My question is, how was a tribunal constituted? The reason I am asking this question is, you have advised us there was one senior member from the Revolutionary Political Council. There is a reference in the original submission on page 21. I am sorry, this is a second submission, I beg your pardon. That's correct. The left-hand column, the third paragraph from the bottom. I will read it to you
"A military tribunal was appointed and convened on the 22nd of May 1984."
It says
"Available documentation on the liberation of the tribunal have been submitted to the TRC."

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I was addressing, first of all, the list of names who feature in that list as 1982. The 1984, as I said, would be the period when we began to settle towards a structure of the tribunals. 1982 was the first, the cases of the first major evidence, and in 1982, I am saying that we sent individuals from the Revolutionary Council to Luanda, to constitute together there on the spot, tribunals to attend to the matter. By 1984, having the experience of 1981/82, we began to settle on that structure.
Now on the 1984 case the available documentation has been submitted to the TRC. Again, I would need to refer to that particular documentation. The 1984 one would be the mutiny one, and that one clearly had constituted from Lusaka as to their names.

MR VALLY: Let me understand this. Prior to the mutiny there were ad hoc tribunals which consisted of one senior person from Lusaka and how many other people and where were they appointed from?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: It would be at least one from Lusaka, it would often be more than one. It would also take into account, Mr Chairperson, the practical realities that we were facing. As a Revolutionary Council our task was to prosecute the struggle at home. Now we would look at who is available, whose schedules of work enabled them to be freed and sometimes we would have to cancel their schedule of work. There were also at times senior members present in Luanda or visiting, and we would intercept them and say stay on longer there. We would send one or two people, sometimes more, from Lusaka. I am reminded now also that the Revolutionary Council would work under the NWC and they were constituted then by the NWC. The majority would be from the NECRC structures.