Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

ADV DE JAGER: You mentioned somebody before Erasmus and it sounded like Tsoametsi.

CHAIRPERSON: Tsoametsi, yes.

MR VISSER: That is Tsoametsi whom he implicated something about bitten you will remember, that is spelt Tsoametsi and he said that when he struck a blow at Tereblanche, a turmoil developed and a lot of people came in and these were the people.

CHAIRPERSON: My recollection is Tsoametsi was separate.  Tsoametsi was the one who was there from the beginning and took offence when he tried to ... (intervention)

MR VISSER: That is precisely correct and all I am trying to do is rolled into one, I am just trying to put on record that all of this will be denied.
	Are you saying that when Tereblanche ... (intervention)

MR STANDER: Mr Chairperson, I still haven't heard that the witness has been given a chance to answer to this statement made by my learned friend.

CHAIRPERSON: You heard Counsel say to you that Mr Tsoametsi, Mr Erasmus, Mr Miningwa and Mr Kopi will deny that they assaulted you, what is your reply to that?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: They will end up in a problem if they continue with that.

MR VISSER: Well you know, that is a strange answer Mr Makhubalo, coming from a person who couldn't tell this Committee what any of them did to you.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I will say these people assaulted me.  For me not to remember who did what, who did what and what, but I would say they assaulted me.  I couldn't have had the operation I had, I couldn't have these marks I have if they would come and say those things.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you for pointing that out.

INTERPRETER: He hasn't finished.  They will be telling a lie.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I correct myself for purposes of the record, by excluding Tsoametsi, because there may be some doubt and thank you for pointing that out to me.
	In the sense, of course, he doesn't deny it, but in the sense that the last question, perhaps his name shouldn't have been rolled into one with the others.

MR STANDER: I am afraid that I don't understand where my learned friend is heading.

CHAIRPERSON: When he spoke of Tsoametsi, he told us, described what happened.  When he spoke of the others, it was a general assault and that is what Mr Visser is explaining, that he put at first a general question, he is now separating them because there was specific evidence about Tsoametsi and the part he played, it was very proper for him to do so.  I don't see your difficulty.

MR STANDER: I beg your pardon, I do understand it now.

MR VISSER: None of these people know anything about, none of my clients, know anything about R1 500-00 which was taken off you Mr Makhubalo.  Do you have any comment on that?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I don't remember that they know anything about anything in this proceedings.  So it their intention to deny anything in that incident.

MR VISSER: I see you are looking at the audience, but they are not laughing at your joke, but let me just repeat the question. 	Did you have the R1 500-00 on you?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I am not here because people should laugh.  That money was with me.  All the people that I was with, they knew that I had that money.

MR VISSER: Who took it away from you?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I don't know who took that money from me, but it was lost in Tereblanche's office.

MR VISSER: Why don't you know who took it from you?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: What happened is that I was assaulted again.  Something was put on my face and at the end of the day, I was naked at some stage.

MR VISSER: Didn't that, wasn't your face covered in Mr Mamome's office?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I said to you at Mamome's office, a wet cloth was put on my face.  At Tereblanche's office, when I was assaulted, a wet towel was put on my face.  I am not able to tell who took the money, but all people who were there, who assaulted me, knew that they had stolen my money.

MR VISSER: Did you at any stage during your numerous arrests, which you told us, more than six, well I think I did ask this question already, but let me just in case I didn't Mr Chairman, did you see blood on the walls.  I think I asked the question, thank you Mr Chairman.
	Now, just one thing about the blood that you saw there.  Was it a lot of blood on the walls?  Was it all over the place or were there small drops, what was the situation?  Could anybody see it if you walked down the passage?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Everybody who walked on that passage, would be able to see those blood stains.

MR VISSER: And when you were taken out, I am sorry, let me first ask you this, did you see blood stains every one of those four days that you went to that building or was it only on one occasion?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: On our arrival on that day, that is when I saw the blood stains on the wall.

MR VISSER: Oh, I see.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't quite understand that, do you mean that as soon as you got there, as you went into the passage, you saw blood stains on the wall?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: After my comrades were assaulted, when I went to the toilet, I saw those blood stains, that is what I am saying.

MR VISSER: And was it only on that one occasion, the day when you arrived there that you saw the blood stains?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I said so.

MR VISSER: Now listen carefully please, Mr Makhubalo.  Was Mr Ngo and Mr Motsamai, were they both present in that building on that day and did you see them there?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: They were present.

MR VISSER: You have no doubt of that?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: They were present.

MR VISSER: So therefore they would probably have seen the blood stains if they walked down that passage, wouldn't they?  They would have known about it?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: You must understand some of these things, these people were Security members.  They were among the people who were assaulting these people.  Whether they saw or did not see, that is not my problem, but what I am telling you is that blood was there.

MR VISSER: You were later charged with a charge of terrorism and is it correct that at court that charge was withdrawn against you?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Do you make me retrogress again about the court case.  At the end of the day we were acquitted.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I see it is eleven o'clock.  I believe I have finished.  If you want to take the short adjournment now, I will go through my notes but I believe I am through, probably through.  But I will use the time, if you take the adjournment now and just make absolutely certain.

CHAIRPERSON: You just managed to come in under the time you said Mr Visser, we will take the adjournment.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS

OUPA MAKHUBALO: (s.u.o.)

MR VISSER: (cont)
	Mr Makhubalo, I put it to you that there was no blood on the walls as you described, to this Committee and I am putting it to you further that you just added that to add a dramatic touch to your story of being assaulted, and your comrades being assaulted.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: It is unfortunate, if it was possible to emulate me or to be in my position.  At that time you could have seen all those things I have mentioned.

MR VISSER: If Mr Motsamai told this Committee that according to his knowledge, there were only assaults or tortures on that group of 19 people on the first day when you were brought to Bloemfontein, and not on subsequent days, would he be making a mistake?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I don't understand your question.

MR VISSER: I suggest Mr Makhubalo, that you are the one that is not telling the truth, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: .

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

INTERPRETER: He is still talking.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I am saying it is unfortunate about what he is saying.  If I am lying, it shows that there will be no person who will be sitting here and tell the truth.

MR STANDER: I do not have questions, thank you Chairperson.

MR STANDER: .

CHAIRPERSON: Does that conclude this victim's testimony?  Nobody else wishes to put anything?  Thank you.