Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-19

MR STRYDOM: Now when you peeped through the hole from the kitchen, you saw people at shack number 23, is that correct?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Number 33?

MR STRYDOM: No, 23.

FLORENCE MOLETE: They were at Agnes' place.

MR STRYDOM: Agnes Malindi, is that right?

FLORENCE MOLETE: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM: How far is that shack from where you stood in the kitchen, peeping through the hole?

FLORENCE MOLETE: It is not far from my shack, you can clearly see what's happening on that shack.

MR STRYDOM: Could you identify the people, give a description of the people that you saw at that stage, at that shack?

FLORENCE MOLETE: They were many and they were outside the shack.  Some of them were running.  I could see there was something happening there and then I told them that something is happening outside.

MR STRYDOM: Could you see that they were wearing headbands, either white or red?

FLORENCE MOLETE: I could only see that there were people when I was peeping.

MR STRYDOM: So over that distance from where you were looking to the shack of the Malindis, you could not see if they were wearing headbands, is that correct?

FLORENCE MOLETE: That hole was not that big that you could see a person at that distance.

MR STRYDOM: Wasn't the reason for the fact that you could not observe headbands because of the light situation, it was too dark?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Mr Strydom, that hole was very small, so when you peep through that hole you only see that there are people outside.

MR STRYDOM: When your shack was broken into, can you tell the Committee how many people entered initially?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Because there was a fight I didn't have time to count people.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see that people came into the kitchen where you were?

FLORENCE MOLETE: After they had broken down the door the other one was standing at the door and then a group of them entered.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you just repeat that, I didn't get that.

FLORENCE MOLETE: After they had broken down the door one of them was standing at the door and thereafter a group of them entered.

MR STRYDOM: The man that was standing at the door, was that a black or a white man?

FLORENCE MOLETE: He entered with them.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what he's asking you is about the man who stood at the door.  You see you've told us that after they had broken the door there was one man who stood at the door and a group of them entered.  Did you understand that?  Do you see the man that we're talking about?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Yes, that is the one who was standing at the door.  After the door was broken down he entered with the other group that entered and they were all running into the shack.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  So what happened is, after the door was broken a man appeared at the door.

FLORENCE MOLETE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And a group of men appeared also at the door and all of them got into the ...(indistinct)

FLORENCE MOLETE: That's correct, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what he wants to find out is about the first man that emerged at the door, was that man black or was he white?

FLORENCE MOLETE: He was a black person.

MR STRYDOM: During the course of this attack, did you at any stage see any white people inside the shack?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Mr Strydom, the people who were assaulting me were black men.

MR STRYDOM: What he is asking you is, during the attack on yourself during this attack, did you see any white men inside the shack?

MR STRYDOM: Inside the shack.

FLORENCE MOLETE: We were screaming and we were facing death.  The other people were in the bedroom, I was in the kitchen.  I was just trying to save my life because I was facing death.  I did not recognise, I didn't see whether they were white or black people.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say "we were screaming", who else was screaming?

FLORENCE MOLETE: The family of Lekabe were in the bedroom, myself I was in the kitchen and the door had already been broken down then.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand that, but what I want to find out, I heard you say "we were screaming", so what I want to find out is, who else was screaming apart from you?

FLORENCE MOLETE: I don't understand.

CHAIRPERSON: I get the impression from your answer that it was not only yourself who was screaming, but there may have been other people or another person who was also screaming, do you understand what I'm trying to say?

FLORENCE MOLETE: ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: When she says ...(Zulu)

INTERPRETER: She was actually asking whether you are saying "in the shack".

FLORENCE MOLETE: We were all crying.  We were screaming when these people entered the shack.

CHAIRPERSON: That is as far as ... who is the "we" you are talking about?

FLORENCE MOLETE: I was with Phule and his family in that shack.  That is my shack.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Were they also screaming?  That is all I want to find out from you.

FLORENCE MOLETE: We were all crying.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, did you hear the screams or did you see the people screaming?  Did you see them as they were screaming or were in a place where you could not see them but you hear the screams?

FLORENCE MOLETE: They were crying in the bedroom and I was also crying in the place where I was.

ADV SIGODI: Could you see them?

FLORENCE MOLETE: There was a door leading to the bedroom and they were inside and they had closed that door because they were about to sleep.

ADV SIGODI: So you could only hear the screaming?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Yes, I heard the cries and then the other part that separating the kitchen and the bedroom, fell.

CHAIRPERSON: We will be taking the tea adjournment at 11 o'clock.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson, maybe one more question.
	Did you see the attack on your sister, Miriam and on Mita?

FLORENCE MOLETE: We were all attacked in the house.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, I accept that, but what I want to know is, did you see the attack?  Whilst the attack was going on on these people, did you see the attack on them?

FLORENCE MOLETE: I was trying to protect myself, my life. Miriam was in the bedroom, how would I see Miriam, because I was also being assaulted on the other side.

MR STRYDOM: Whilst the attack was taking ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is the answer
"I couldn't see because I was also being attacked"
Is that the answer?

MR LAX: Yes.  ...(indistinct) bedroom.  Can I just confirm, you say you couldn't see, there were two basic reasons, one, it was happening in the bedroom and two, you were being attacked yourself?  Did I understand your answer correctly?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Yes, the others were in the kitchen and the others broke from behind and they entered into the bedroom where Miriam was.

MR LAX: I just want to take you back one little bit.  You spoke about - the way it was interpreted were these words
"The other part separating the kitchen and the bedroom, fell"
Just explain what you mean by that.  Was it the wall that fell, was it the door that fell, what exactly fell?

FLORENCE MOLETE: They were broken down.  This was just soft hardboards, they were tied to the door.  Even if you just apply pressure on it, it will fall down.

MR LAX: So it was the door and the wall that all fell down in one go, is that what you are saying?

FLORENCE MOLETE: That's correct.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: And did any part of the bedroom also fall off?

FLORENCE MOLETE: It fell down.  While we were still fighting, even this part that was separating the kitchen from the bedroom, fell down.

CHAIRPERSON: But did any other wall of the bedroom also fall down? - to enable people simply to walk into the, to come directly into the bedroom from outside.

FLORENCE MOLETE: This was a four-cornered shack, it fell as I am indicating now, also in the middle.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that between the kitchen and the bedroom?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Yes, that's between the kitchen and the bedroom, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did any other wall fall, apart from that wall?

FLORENCE MOLETE: No.