Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR NTOMBENI: Yes, I do.

MR UNTERHALTER: Lastly, I just want to read the final portion of paragraph 7 of Mr Mandonsela's statement which is that he says that the club was disbanded in April or May of 1987 but he goes on to say in that paragraph
"That the members were then allowed to keep their track suits, it was however a mistake from the management to allow these members to keep their track suits as these people created the impression that the club did still exist although most of these people were still closely involved with the Mandela household, even during the funeral of Doctor Asvat in 1989 they were wearing the track suits"
As far as you remember in 1987, were there still people associated with the Mandela household who called themselves Mandela Football Club people?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chair, just a few questions please.
 Mr Ntombeni, did you often see guns of various descriptions in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

MR NTOMBENI: I saw a Scorpion that Bobo was talking about in Zinzi's bedroom as well as a 47 that was used by Commander Viki.

MR VALLY: You say 47, what do you mean?

MR NTOMBENI: AK47.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of MK units operating from any of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's residences?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes, I know of a few.

MR VALLY: Can you give us very brief details on these MK units, who was in charge of them, who made them up, who were the members of these units?

MR NTOMBENI: I remember "V", Commander Sonwabo as well as others whose names I can't recall.

MR VALLY: "V", did he have any other name?

MR NTOMBENI: Vuisile.

MR VALLY: Did Mrs Madikizela-Mandela know Vuisile?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes.

MR VALLY: Why do you say this?

MR NTOMBENI: When "V" used to come to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's yard he would speak to Mrs Mandela.

MR VALLY: Did you get any training or any firearms while you were staying at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

MR NTOMBENI: No, not at the time that I was staying at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's place.

MR VALLY: Finally, the issue of the football club - the disbanding or the alleged disbanding thereof, although it was called The Mandela United Football Club, what were the principle activities that this group of young men were involved in?

MR NTOMBENI: The aim of the formation of the Club was for us to be able to play soccer.

MR VALLY: How did it develop, what did it become later?

MR NTOMBENI: As I've already explained, people starting getting assaulted until the club was ordered to be disbanded.

MR VALLY: Did the young men who initially made up the club, did they act as bodyguards for Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MR NTOMBENI: No, they were not bodyguards.

MR VALLY: Finally, in terms of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and Mr Jerry Richardson, did Mr Jerry Richardson always take instructions from Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MR NTOMBENI: I wouldn't know about that.

MR VALLY: Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions for this witness but one issue I want to just say two minor things if I may because Mr Semenya raised the issue of the subpoena.

DR BORAINE: If you'd like to keep them brief.

MR VALLY: They'll be very brief.  The first point I want to make is, this witness stood down the last time because Mr Semenya alleged that he had information that the witness had been offered money and we note that none of this has been put to the witness by Mr Semenya, that's the first issue.
 The second issue is the issue of the subpoena.  On the last occasion when this witness stood down and these queries were raised, we made the specific point that in the course of issuing subpoenas we came across this witness.  Two things to state here and the first thing is this, we don't have to subpoena people we can invite them as well so they didn't actually need a subpoena if a person is willing to come forward and give evidence.
 Secondly, my understanding is - and I haven't discussed it directly with the person who did serve the subpoena, that yes, there was a subpoena in the name of Gift  Mabelane and the name Mabelane was scratched out and Ntombeni was written in it's place.  There's nothing sinister about it, this witness is very relevant to this hearing, thank you Mr Chair.

DR BORAINE: Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, I was hoping we're going to be able to get the subpoena from the witness as he has promised us that and I will put my instructions to the witness having seen that copy but let me reserve my comments Sir.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.

MR SEMENYA: May I though deal with one aspect with the witness?

DR BORAINE: Please go ahead.

MR SEMENYA: You are Zulu speaking Sir, are you not?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Were you confusing Sanele with Silent?

MR NTOMBENI: I don't speak Zulu A, I grew up in the location.

MR SEMENYA: I really give up.

DR BORAINE: ...[inaudible] silent answer.  Doctor Randera?

DR RANDERA: Mr Ntombeni, I just want to take you to  your statement where you mention Cebekhulu, now that was when he was sent - or you alleged he was sent to kill Sponge, Mr Sibusiso Chili, what I want to ask you is how long did you know Cebekhulu and when was the first time that you saw him at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

MR NTOMBENI: I saw Cebekhulu for the first time at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's yard.

DR RANDERA: When?

MR NTOMBENI: I don't remember when that was but he arrived after me, I was already at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's place when Cebekhulu arrived.

DR RANDERA: But can I just remind you, you are saying that you were - at the end of December 1988, you were called and told that you were an informer and that's when I assume you left the house, now are you telling me that Cebekhulu was at the house before that already?

MR NTOMBENI: When I left Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's yard I never left it permanently, I went to see them from time to time, I never left permanently.

DR RANDERA: But you are saying that you saw him then already, is that what you're telling me?

MR NTOMBENI: Yes.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.  My next questions flows from what you're just saying that you were accused of being an informer at the end of 1988, you are then asked to leave or you leave the house and people come to you and leave again.  Now the impression that's being created here or what we've heard over the last week and a half, is that here's this football club where they find out that there's an informer, the person either disappears or gets badly tortured.
 But in your case you not only managed to survive this period, you managed to leave the country in 1992 when the ANC is legalised and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela - I would understand, has quite a lot of influence already in that situation.  Now if she was as seems to be the impression created, if she was as vindictive, then how is it possible that you survived this period when people are saying that you're an informer and not only that but you mange to leave on an ANC ticket to go to Uganda in 1992?

MR NTOMBENI: Where I used to stay there were a lot of people and I used to surround myself with a lot of people.  I used to make sure that everyone that I knew, knew about my problem with Winnie Madikizela-Mandela until such time that I had to leave.  I even went to Shell House when I submitted my biography to Viva and I told him, that's when he arranged that I should leave the place.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.

DR BORAINE: Ms Mkhize?

MS MKHIZE: Thank you Chairperson.
 I just want to ask you general question, when looking back now do you think your formation would have engaged in any of the activities like the assaults, the killings was it not for the influence of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and Zinzi?

MR NTOMBENI: Could you repeat that question, I don't understand it.