Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-02

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: It is the same with Stephen.  I've indicated that I was, that I was on patrol.  It was supper time.  Other had to have their supper, and others were expected to go on patrol whilst others were having supper.  We all knew him.  We all knew them.  Everybody and old women and aged women and old men and everybody knew these people, knew their activities.  I came back to the office.  I was in charge of the entire operation and I suggested that he too, or should I say Beki, should be fetched, himself being the first one.  And the intention with reference to Beki was that we wanted to ask him questions and use him for our intelligence at the same time.  We wanted to use him after he had given us all the information.  He was involved in so many things.  Things that we did not know, and he told us about those things that day.  And as I, we were asking him, I said to him, if he tells the truth I will make sure that nothing befalls him.  I knew Beki being a hit squad driver, around...(indistinct) in 1990 right up to 1993.  Beki then confessed to the incident of the 18th August 1990 in Polla Park where 12 people died.  He was a driver during that incident, and he also referred to the Sam Ntuli incident who was chairperson of the Tokoza branch of the civic association, Sam who was killed.  Beki also confessed that he was involved when the memorial service was attended on Thursday people were about to go past the hostel.  You had to go through three hostels to reach Sam Ntuli's house, and people had to go back to their house to toyi toyi to pay their last respects before the funeral.  12 people died on that day and he was part of helping others.  Beki was therefore the driver of the hit squad that was operational that day.  And he also referred to incidents where Nthabazimbi tavern was attacked or a tavern at Nthabazimbi was attacked.  One of the people who were victims of the attack is confined to a wheelchair, but then importantly it was the driver of the hit squad members.  And I also observed a number of things apart from this evidence.  And these things were hurting, touching to the heart, because I could have easily said he should go back and serve as an intelligence but that was not an appropriate idea at that time.  I therefore had no choice so that I issued an order that he be killed.

MR SHANE: The civic leader that you called Sam, that is in fact the late Sam Ntuli, is that correct?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: Right, and after apologising, saying he's sorry, you, what did you feel?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Yes he apologised profusely.  I was supposed to be sensitive towards his apology, but because we had been harassed and we had suffered a lot, so that we no longer had mercy, we no longer cared, we no longer cared about everything, we had lost heart.  And anybody who was operating within the IFP could not have survived, and therefore I issued this order after his plea.  He cried pleading with us, but then because of the things that he did, remembering the many people who died on Sam Ntuli's memorial service, these were old people who were shot simply because they were wearing Mandela T-shirts.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that you knew what the history of both these deceased's were, or was.  Correct?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You knew that they were IFP activists that are getting up to all this nonsense.

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Yes, fully.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the purpose of speaking to them, getting them to admit issues, things?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: That was the procedure.  A person had to be questioned first.  Given, to be given an opportunity to speak for himself.  We didn't want to do something and only later on discover that we were wrong.  We wanted to make sure which organisation a person belonged to in terms of membership cards and things like that.  These people used to go around carrying membership cards of their organisations, and some of the cards that we used to come along in the houses were IFP cards.  We then asked him questions.  We also asked him questions because he was a township boy.  He didn't come from Natal or Transkei, or an outside area.  He was a person from Gauteng, a township boy.  We therefore had to give him a chance.

CHAIRPERSON: What would have happened had he said, no, what you're suggesting, or what he's being accused of, is not true?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: May the question please be repeated.

CHAIRPERSON: What would have happened had, during that interrogation, either or both of these victims denied what was being said to them?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: I would have no choice if they denied everything, or should I say, if they denied everything and yet I knew certain things, I would issue an order to the effect that we should forgive them but use them later on.  They should stick to Inkatha and only SDU members should know that we have our own intelligence within Inkatha.  So that it transpired that they admitted their involvement and they admitted to these because they knew we grew up together and they knew what they were doing, and that is why I am saying that I did not have a choice.  They cried very sadly, apologising profusely.

MR SHANE: Now, can you explain how, what happened regarding the actual killing of Beki?  He was taken somewhere.  Will you tell the whole story of how he died.

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: He was shot.  It's six years ago, I cannot remember who shot first between myself Mzwake and Bashin, but we all shot.  We all fired shots and we left him there.  On the following morning on coming back from patrol he had been burned.  We don't know who burned him, but it was known in the township, even 'though the order was not issued, it was known that he was an IFP member, in the event of his death he should be burned.  I don't know who burned him.  I was busy doing something else, but yes, he was burned.

MR SHANE: At which place was he actually killed?  Can you give a description?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: It was between Makazile and Katizwe.  There is a veld in that area.  It is not a long distance from the office and he was walking freely.  Even if somebody could come across us one would not have noticed that somebody was under guard.  He was walking freely right up to the spot where he was shot, but then I am not quite sure who fired the first shot, but yes, three of us shot, using, fired shots using AK-47.

MR SHANE: Did all three of you use the same weapon, or did you have, each of you have your own weapons?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Some of the other firearms had been stored for later patrols.  The one firearm that we used was the one that used to be kept at the office.  We used the same firearm.

MR SHANE: Can you remember how many shots you actually fired?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Plus minus two times.

MR SHANE: At what part of the body?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: I cannot recall, because he had been lying down at the time trying to stand up.  He was quite a strong person.  He tried to rise after he had been shot.  It could have been the foot or the hand, I am not sure.

MR SHANE: Did you know members, any members of Beki's family?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: The one person I knew was his father.  I can say I know one member of the family, but I do not know the name.  However I can identify the person, they used to own a dry cleaning at Madondo.  It's quite an old store but I do not remember everything.  I can tell a family member.  I am quite sure of the father, 'though I'm not sure whether its the father or the grandfather.

MR SHANE: Were there any other actions, illegal actions besides that what you've mentioned now, that you took part in?

CHAIRPERSON: Before you answer that question.  Are you ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: May the question please be repeated.