Special Hearings — Business Hearings — 1997-11-12

REV DR FETZILI: The ANC itself recently visited the issue at its national policy conference and it's an issue that will be discussed at its national conference in December.
 We have - as an initiative we have met with the Minister of Finance, shared our research findings and have opened up a dialogue with his ministry with some of his officials.
 However we think that a lot of energy needs to be added to get Government to take a more courageous position around this issue.  Let us just say that we do not believe that there are no solutions to this problem.  We believe that it's complex, it's difficult and it's challenging.
 On each slice of the debt we believe that there are things that can be done.  With regard to the foreign we are quite convinced that if there was a campaign led by the church leaders in our country, together with church leaders in Europe where those European commercial banks are located, backed by President Mandela, we would very quickly;  in six months we would argue, those banks it will be in their (indistinct) interest to very quickly say we forgive the debt.
 The amounts that are involved, if they look at it from their cost benefit analyst it is not in their interest.  So we are saying that our Government together with civil society here, together with civil society in Europe and including the backing of some Governments in Europe, should start negotiations with those five institutions as a matter of urgency.  So that - there's a clear path there to eradicate - to deal with the problem. 
 The second bulk slice of the debt which is the pension fund debt, we are quite convinced that the research that we have done, the formulations that we have put on the table, provide us with the very clear solution in terms of restructuring the current system by which the pension fund actually exists - is currently run and going back to the pre-1989 system before Apartheid book keeping by the National Party, you know, got off the starting blocks with regard to the pension fund.
 Now, we're not saying that is a simple matter, you can click your fingers and do it, but all the reasons that have been put forward as concerns by the Ministry of Finance are reasons that we are able to say, but this is the answer to it.
 So for example, one of the biggest reasons that build the Minister of Finance and the director general, Maria Ramos have given over the last month, is that we're concerned about the civil servants' pension fund. 
 Now we are of course also concerned with the civil service pension funds.  We have the backing of trade unions who have civil servants within them.  Surely they're not going to act against him.  So there's a simple point here;  that more money than needs to be sitting in this fund is sitting in that fund and the National Party clearly had a reason why they would do it.
 One of the reasons was that they were anxious about this new Government coming in, what it would mean.  A lot of them had an agenda for ensuring that they get pay outs and so on and they wanted to make sure when they got the golden handshakes there will be enough money in the fund.
 The other reason we can speculate that the National Party whose borrowing in the last five, six years increased tremendously, did that partly as an agenda to make it very difficult for the new democratic Government to have the space to spend resources to seriously eradicate the legacy of Apartheid.
 So, there we're saying to our Government, we don't blame you for inheriting the system, but we will blame you if you don't actually rectify it and go back to a system that can release substantial amounts of resources that will help bring down the 300 billion debt burden.  (Speaker not in mike - silence)
 Sorry.  With the local commercial institutions we want to say that it is wrong to say that there's absolutely nothing that can be done, because with the locally commercial institutions we're talking about in some cases SANLAM, OLD MUTUAL and so on and they are - their public pension funds in it.
 Of course we wouldn't want to touch the integrity of private citizens' pension funds, but we need to go back and look at each of these institutions, find out what profit they made out of lending to the Apartheid Government and then there are a range of mechanism including where we say to such institutions, recognising that in fact you lent to an immoral Government, we want you to give Government a ten year interest holiday where for ten years Government is absolved for the responsibility of paying just at least the interest component.
 We would obviously like to see those resources - sorry, those debts also cancelled, but we're saying that there are many things that can be done and we need to look at each case on a specific bases and we have not done that.
 As a country we have not done that and we are saying that we owe to our people, we owe to the people - children that are not yet born, to actually do this things with the right kind of resources vision and courage.

RAMS RAMASHIA: Chair, may I add just briefly by saying that it is true that the African National Congress has given some support to this process, but it has only been at a rhetorical level and if they are very serious about this issue, then I think they will have to translate rhetoric into action and given the fact that the majority of legislators in the National assembly are ANC member, we cannot rely on the fact that the current laws that govern pension fund would not allow them to be able to intervene in this situation, because if they're serious enough about it and they think that something should be done, they have the legislative muscle to change the laws appropriately.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Thank you, Mr Ramashia and your colleagues.  You've raise a very important controversial issue.  As Dr Boraine said we've received a document from the Cape Town chapter if you like earlier on in the year.  So we have started thinking about this and clearly our research department is looking at it and we may proceed then to have further discussion with Government.
 In addition, let me say that there are very powerful groupings represented here today that hopefully will respond to the issues that you've raised and the debates that aminate from it. 
 I thank you very much for coming here today.
Can I please call Mr Kesani and the Islamic Chamber?  We're doing well.
 Mr Kesani, good afternoon.  Can you please introduce your colleagues to us?
ISLAMIC CHAMBER:  PRESENTATION

MR KESANI: (indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can you just press that little red button.  The red one.  Right.

MR KESANI: I'm president of the Islamic Chamber of Commerce  and Mr Bogont and Yusa are both executives members of the Islamic Chamber of Commerce.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Kesani, can you just speak up?  There's a lot of disturbance.  Can I ask people to settle down please?

MR KESANI: I'm (indistinct) Kesani, the President of the Islamic Chamber of Commerce and Industry and together with me I have two of my colleagues, Mr Bobard and Mr Aref also of the Islamic Chamber of Commerce and Industry.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I hope that you heard what I said earlier on;  that we're giving you 15 minutes to make your presentation and then of course there'll be some questioning from my colleagues.
 Will you please stand to take the oath?  Are you going to be the only person speaking or your colleagues also?

MR KESANI: I will, but they might like to add something.

DR BORAINE: Could I ask whether you are going to take the oath or the affirmation, please?  Which?  The oath?  Okay.

MR KESANI: (Duly sworn in, states).

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kesani, you may proceed.