Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-08-24

ENOCK TSHABALALA: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: When we adjourned, according to the record, Mr Knight you were about to commence your re-examination of Mr Tshabalala?

MR KNIGHT: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well, would you proceed then?

MR KNIGHT: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, before I do so, my learned colleague Mr Dukada has indicated that he has one question which he would like to put to the applicant, so with your leave, if he could complete that aspect of his cross-examination and then I will continue with the re-examination?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well Mr Dukada?

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, it is a question relating to a statement which I was not in possession of at the time I was dealing with the witness.
	Firstly may I just hand in the statement to members of the Committee as well as my colleagues.  Sorry, if anybody can help me with this.
	Mr Tshabalala, can you have a look at the statement, it  is extracted from a police docket, it is dated the 2nd of December 1995 and it was made by Leonard Kawe, who was the Head of the Security Branch in Umtata then.
	I would just concentrate to the second paragraph of the statement.  He says I know Detective Constable Dandala and Special Constables Moss and Tshabalala.  They are all attached to the Security Police and stationed at Umtata Security Police Head Office, where they are also members of the Anti-Terrorism Unit which is also a section of the Security Police under my command.  Can you see that?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: And then it goes further and say for the purpose of performing their work, they were issued with firearms.  Do you see that?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: And the truth is that Moss and yourself were never members of the Security Police in Umtata, do you agree with me?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: Yes, I agree with you.

MR DUKADA: And the statement made here is obviously false?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR DUKADA: Would you agree with me that it was part of a cover up, made by the Head of the Security Branch Gen Kawe?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: Yes, that is correct.

MR DUKADA: And then it goes further down the statement, the last paragraph, it says on the 24th of September 1985 Detective Constable Dandala who had been issued with a 7.65 MM Petro Baretta pistol with 10 rounds of ammunition, reported that he had expended two rounds of ammunition and was left with eight rounds of ammunition.
	Special Constable Moss was issued with a 9mm (indistinct) with 20 rounds of ammunition, and reported that he had expended three rounds of ammunition and was left with 17 rounds of ammunition.
	Special Constable Tshabalala who was issued with a 9mm (indistinct) with 20 rounds of ammunition, reported that he had expended five rounds of ammunition and was left with 15 rounds of ammunition.  That again was false?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: Yes, that is not true.

MR DUKADA: You were never issued with ammunition or firearms by any member of the Transkeian Police Force?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: No, that never happened.

MR DUKADA: And obviously again, here the General was making a cover up.  Do you agree with me?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: Yes, that is correct.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DUKADA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Knight?

MR KNIGHT: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Tshabalala, it has been put to you in cross-examination that you in fact didn't receive a very good salary at Vlakplaas and that it would have in fact benefited you to in fact kill Ndondo, rather than arrest him as was the original purpose.
	What is your comment on that?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: That is not correct.

MR KNIGHT: You at the time, were married, is that true?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: Yes, I was married.

MR KNIGHT: What did your wife earn as a salary?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: She was earning R150-00 per week at the time.

MR KNIGHT: When you were away on operational duty, such as the time, at this incident, you received an allowance from the police, is that correct?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KNIGHT: Can you tell the Committee what that allowance was roughly?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: We used to get R65-00 per day.

MR KNIGHT: Together with your monthly salary as a policeman, your wife's salary, as well as the allowances that you received from time to time, were you able to sufficiently cover your monthly expenses for your wife and your family?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: Yes.

MR KNIGHT: Now, after the incident took place, why was it necessary to travel back to Barkly East instead of, as it was put to you in cross-examination, of possibly going to look for Mr Bam who was also identified as a person to be looked for that day?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: It was not necessary because Ndondo was already dead, though it was not the intention to kill him.
	They didn't tell us to continue looking for other people.

MR KNIGHT: So, is it correct then, as a result of the death which was unexpected, that for that reason you travelled back to Barkly East?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: That is correct, that is so.

MR KNIGHT: Just something, an aspect I want to cover with you, regarding your language and the use of translators and interpreters, what is your mother tongue?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: It is Zulu.

MR KNIGHT: Now, when you were questioned by Inspector Jordaan at Piet Retief prison, and a statement was taken from you at that time, was an interpreter or translator used by Inspector Jordaan?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: No, there was no interpretation.

MR KNIGHT: Mr Tshabalala, again when you consulted with myself when we were preparing initially for these hearings, did you have a similar difficulty in communicating with myself, myself being an English speaker with the absence of a translator or interpreter?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: Sometimes I do have some difficulties, but not that much.

MR KNIGHT: Mr Tshabalala, I just want to clear up something with regard to the amendment that was brought in and with regard to paragraph 10(a) of that amendment.   What was the purpose with regard to the abduction of Mr Ndondo?
	Was it in fact for him to be brought back for questioning to Barkly East?  Is that correct?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KNIGHT: Now, you were not told by Captain Moss any other orders, other than the orders that you received and that you had testified to?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: No, there were no other instructions.

MR KNIGHT: So, in fact if Captain Moss had received any other instructions that day from the other white Officers, there would be no way that you would have knowledge of that, is that correct?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KNIGHT: Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

MR KNIGHT: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Knight.  Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I don't have any questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: I have no questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dandala told us that on the way to Qala, there was a discussion amongst the Askaris, that is yourself, Moss and Norma Shosha which was to the effect that if Askaris go on a mission and one of the persons who is part of that group, does not take part in the mission that is being carried out, they would come back and kill the person.  Did you hear him say that?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: Yes, I heard.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Did such a conversation take place?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: I don't remember anything about that type of a discussion.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible that it did take place, but you simply have no recollection of it?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: I didn't hear anything about that, I didn't hear anything of that nature.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand your evidence, the statement that was taken by Jordaan from you, was the truth, is that right?