Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-16

W O THOABALA: The people who were against the ANC were the police, we had that belief and we had that right to assault him.  Those who were against us.

ADV DE JAGER: But there were many people not being police that were against the ANC, not supporters of the ANC.

W O THOABALA: If he was not a policeman, he was not a member of the ANC, not supporting the ANC, he was a vigilante.  If he is not either a comrade or a police, we would fight against him on the basis that he is a vigilante.  We want that kind of a person, a person who doesn't belong to the any party, we didn't have a problem with, but to come against us, we come against you.

ADV DE JAGER: So you wouldn't attack neutral people?

W O THOABALA: We never attacked a neutral person, instead we would defend them.

ADV DE JAGER: No you have searched Moalosi, when you had him on the ground and you realised he had no weapon with him. Is that correct?

W O THOABALA: That's correct, yes.

ADV DE JAGER: But you didn't stop then, you attacked him and assaulted him.

W O THOABALA: I assaulted him because he himself was our enemy.  This was not the first person.  Some of the comrades attacked him before. I knew that whether we like it or not, he was on the list.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, he was attacked before, so that's so.  He testified to that effect too.

W O THOABALA: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: But was he active, doing anything against the ANC?

W O THOABALA: We called stayaways and he would not take part. Instead of staying away he would go to work.  That is why at the end of the day he was attacked by the comrades.  In other words ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Did you attack any people working for the government at that stage?

W O THOABALA: I will talk about Moalosi.

ADV DE JAGER: No, I am asking you would you attack any person working for the government at that stage?

W O THOABALA: We were not attacking everybody, we were attacking people who were on our list as comrades.

ADV DE JAGER: Who put them on the list?

W O THOABALA: My commander knows.  The commander of the defence unit.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Cholota?

W O THOABALA: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: He knows or did he put them on the list?

W O THOABALA: I am not talking of a written list.  This is a list in our minds, we knew who to attack.

ADV TSHONGWENI: No further questions.

JUDGE WILSON: Have you any further witnesses you intend calling?

ADV TSHONGWENI: No further witnesses from my side, Mr Chairperson.

JUDGE WILSON: Have you had a chance of talking to the victims?

MS THABETHA: I have had a chance of consulting with the victims and one of the victims who is present here today is Jane Plaatjies, the sister to the deceased who had been there at the scene and she would like to say something.

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: (Duly sworn, states).

MS THABETHA: Jane, you speak Xhosa and you speak Sotho. What language are you going to be speaking?

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: I will speak in Sotho.

JUDGE WILSON: Could you put the whole of her name on record.

MS THABETHA: Can you please tell us your name, your full name.

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: Jane Nonshaba Plaatjies.

MS THABETHA: Where do you live, Jane?

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: Parys.

MS THABETHA: Whereabouts in Parys?

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: At Tamahole.

MS THABETHA: Is it correct to say that you are a sister to the deceased, Mr Plaatjies?

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: You are correct.

MS THABETHA: Where did Mr Plaatjies work?

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: He was working in Sharpeville.

MS THABETHA: Was your brother a member of any gang, did you have any knowledge of your brother belonging to any gang?

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: He had never been a member of any gang. He wasn't affiliated to any party.

MS THABETHA: What did your brother do?  What kind of work was he doing?

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: He was a mechanic.

MS THABETHA: Was your brother ever convicted or charged or were there any rumours to the effect that he killed Phapi Qukwa?

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: No, he had never been convicted and the person whom it was rumoured that he killed, was his brother-in-law. He would never do such a thing and he had never been convicted.

MS THABETHA: What do you mean Peter Qukwa was your brother-in-law?

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: Sorry?

MS THABETHA: What do you mean that Peter Qukwa was Mr Plaatjies' brother-in-law?

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: Hubert Qukwa was the husband to my sister, he was supposed to marry her in December, and this incident happened before the marriage, and the woman he was supposed to marry was in matric.  They were very close.

MS THABETHA: So am I hearing you to be saying that the wife to Mr Kqukwa is your sister, who is also a sister to Mr Plaatjies, the deceased?

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: Yes, my sister was supposed to be married by Qukwa, now John Plaatjies was his brother-in-law. My sister is here today, she can come here to give evidence.  My brother had never been accused of killing any person.

MS THABETHA: Did you ever find out who was charged with killing Phapi?

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: Yes, it appeared that Noxies group killed him and they were arrested.

MS THABETHA: Okay.  I am taking you now to the incident when your brother was killed.  Can you tell us what happened?

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: We went to that place with my brother and my cousin and a visitor to our neighbours, and ourselves, Benjie Mkonsi and Sidiso came in. He was jiving on the stage and they took him with, and there was no indication of any fight that would erupt. And after a few minutes people came in and they said your brother is assaulted outside, and I went outside.  I was also hit with bricks and I fell, and I just fell next to him.  After a few minutes I stood up and because earlier on I fainted, and when I regained consciousness my brother was lying there unconscious and I ran into the house to go and ask for help.  People were already outside and I came back to the scene, and I was trying to raise my brother, because he was cold. Phule took a gun and he shot him.  He shot - that is Moalosi.

MS THABETHA: Okay. I just want us to go a bit, a step back. You say two people came into the tavern?  Is that correct?

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: Three.  It was Benjie, Sidiso - Sidiso is the brother to Benjie, and Mkonsi. They were three.

MS THABETHA: Do you know why your brother was assaulted outside?

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: I do not know.  They left the tavern with no indication of a fight that would erupt.  I do not believe he did something wrong to them.  He was a quiet person and he was not around parties at all times. I don't believe there was anything to fight for.

JUDGE WILSON: Before you go on could I just - you said the three people came in; Benjie - is that Benjamin Cholota who gave evidence here today?

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: Yes, that's him.

JUDGE WILSON: And Mkuso?

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Is that Mr Thoabala who also gave evidence today?

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: Yes, that's him.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

MS THABETHA: When they went inside did they - did you overheard what they said to your brother?

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: I didn't hear anything.

MS THABETHA: You just saw them going outside?

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: Yes.

MS THABETHA: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHA

ADV DE JAGER: Who was the person dancing on the stage?

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: My brother, he was a jiver, he was next to me.

JUDGE WILSON: Any questions?

ADV TSHONGWENI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Ms Plaatjies, you say Mr Plaatjies was your brother.  Is that correct?

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: Yes, that's correct.

ADV TSHONGWENI: How close are you to your brother?

JANE NONSHABA PLAATJIES: What do you mean by close, Sir?

ADV TSHONGWENI: I mean your relationship with your brother.  Were you close to him, did he confide other things to you?