Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-10

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you Mr Mfunani, if you have no objections we are going to ask you a few questions.  Mr Mfunani I think that your statement is very clear but I just want to know when you got to Mdantsane Security Branch offices to whom did you hand Mr Bikitsha over to?

UNKNOWN: To the Captain who was Mr Mhlangabise at the time.

BONGANI FINCA: Is Mhlangabise the first name or surname?

UNKNOWN: It Mhlangabise Mfundisi, the surname is Mfundisi.

BONGANI FINCA: You then met him again in court?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct Sir.

BONGANI FINCA: Who handed him over to you when you met in court?

UNKNOWN: I met him in court on the day when he was charged.  He appeared in court because he was charged but I don't remember whether it was on this day that I testified but I did testify because I submitted a statement as I was the one who arrested him.

BONGANI FINCA: Mr Sandi?

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.   Mr Mfunani, we have a problem with time so I would like you to be very brief in your answers if you can, you can just say yes or no.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Let me start by asking this, what is your rank in the police force now?

UNKNOWN: I left the police force as a Major in 1993.

MR SANDI: When did you joint the police force?

UNKNOWN: In 1979.

MR SANDI: In your career as a policeman in Ciskei you've come across various incidents like bus boycotts and others, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct.

MR SANDI: At the time of the bus boycott were you a policeman?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR SANDI: Here in Mdantsane?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR SANDI: Lets proceed without wasting any time.  Do you know Mr Bikitsha?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I do.

MR SANDI: How do you know him?

UNKNOWN: We were staying in the same house.

MR SANDI: Why then is he accusing you of this?

UNKNOWN: I think that he's accusing me because I was the one who arrested him.

MR SANDI: Did you speak to each other after the incident of this arrest, did you meet with each other?

UNKNOWN: I met him in court Mr Chairperson.

MR SANDI: Did you not meet after that?

UNKNOWN: No.

MR SANDI: Is it the first time that you see him to-day after appearing in court?

UNKNOWN: I used to see him in the street when I was driving my car.

MR SANDI: You never spoke to each other?

UNKNOWN: No.

MR SANDI: Why then is he accusing you of this, were you in conflict before?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson I said that he may be accusing me because I was the one who arrested him.   If you listened very carefully when he was testifying he never mentioned my name as one of the people who were torturing him.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Mfunani, I'm very sorry that we do not have enough time.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you Mr Mfunani, we are not making any findings concerning this matter.  When we take a decision to include your name as a perpetrator in this case we will inform you so that we can get more representation from your side if you so wish but for now we thank you and we thank Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

BONGANI FINCA: Are you not appearing for Mr Mfundisi?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I think Mr Nompozolo  is appearing for Captain Mfundisi.

BONGANI FINCA: Who?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Nompozolo is his surname he is appearing Superintendent Mfundisi.

BONGANI FINCA: I'm very sorry, you are excused.   Let us ask Mr Umhlangabise Mfundisi to come forward.  I'm sorry we got wrong information, could you introduce yourself and introduce your client?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman, Mr Chairman my name is Lindile Nompozolo from Nompozolo ............. Attorneys in East London.

BONGANI FINCA: How do you spell that? No the first name is okay, the surname?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Nompozolo.

BONGANI FINCA: Nompozolo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes.

BONGANI FINCA: And you are appearing for Mr Umhlangabise Mfundisi?

MR NOMPOZOLO: That's correct Mr Chairman.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you very much Sir.  Thank you for appearing before the Commission Mr Mfundisi, please stand to take the oath.  Reverend Xundu will lead you.

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

BONGANI FINCA: Mr Mfundisi we have your statement and we'll hand over to you Mr Nompozolo to lead the witness in evidence.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  What is your rank?

UNKNOWN: It's Superintendent.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Presently?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And on the sixteen of July 1987, what was your rank?

UNKNOWN: A Captain.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Who was your employer at that time?

UNKNOWN: The Ciskeian Police, the Government of the Ciskei.

MR NOMPOZOLO: On the day in question we have already heard that there was a raid or a mission, can you confirm your role there?

UNKNOWN: There was indeed a raid and my role was to be the Commander of the entire raid.  I had to answer to all questions and see to it that the raid went smoothly.  I was a specialist in weapons therefore I had to inspect the whole ............

MR NOMPOZOLO: The testimony of Mr Zwelakhe Bikitsha says that you instructed Mxhata to take him to the police station and to make him talk, what is your answer to that?

UNKNOWN: It is true, I gave Mxhata orders to take him to the police station whoever I did not say that he must make him talk.

MR NOMPOZOLO: The evidence of Bikitsha alleges that you and other policemen tortured him although he was not specific.

UNKNOWN: I have never tortured him in any way.

BONGANI FINCA: Are there questions?   Do you have any objection to us asking the witness some questions?

MR NOMPOZOLO: No objections Mr Chairman.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you.  Reverend Xundu?

REV XUNDU: I just want to ask one question, according to your knowledge with a long record of being a policeman do you think anybody was tortured by the police or people's rights were violated by the police or have you never heard of such?

UNKNOWN: It would happen.  Some people would be charged and sentenced and some people would even be killed.  There are those who do not appear before the court.

REV XUNDU: Would it happen that if you wanted information from someone that person would be tortured.

UNKNOWN: Yes, it would happen but not daily.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

BONGANI FINCA: Mr Sandi?

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I did not understand your answer to Reverend Xundu clearly as people started laughing.

UNKNOWN: It would happen that people were beaten but not daily.  What I'm saying is it would depend on the people that are beating the person up and why.  I cannot be specific and say so and so was beaten or why that person was beaten.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Perhaps Mr Chairperson you would allow me to make this statement before I ask questions.  The alleged perpetrators remind me of a book I once read in which it said there are three types of lazy people.

UNKNOWN: It is not me I do not know anything about it and I do not care.

MR SANDI: Let us go back to the methods used when people are being interrogated, what methods would be used to interrogate people?

UNKNOWN: Let me rectify this I did not say that it is when people are arrested it only happens sometimes.

MR SANDI: Let's talk about people who are arrested somebody who is being interrogated maybe the police wanted information from that person, how would you ascertain that you get co-operation from the prisoner?

UNKNOWN: According to the law one would interrogate the person by questioning beyond that would not be according to the law.

MR SANDI: As a policeman can you tell me what methods would you use to interrogate people that are arrested?  If you wanted information from a prisoner what method would you use?

UNKNOWN: I personally would be very careful especially if the case was mine because I would want the case to be successful.  I would not interrogate a person without information I would rather leave that person. I would succeed because as I interrogate this person it would come across that I know more than the prisoner.