Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-08

ADV PRINSLOO: The BWB itself, did it also consist of a military wing, a section of it which was known as the BRL, the Boere Republican Army?  Die BRL, die Boere Republikeinse Leer.

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Dit is korrek.

ADV PRINSLOO: To which could you equate that, to which organisation was it similar?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: The BRL was to the BWB, as Umkonto We Sizwe was to the ANC.

ADV PRINSLOO: In order to become a member of this Boere Republican Army, did they set rules, did they lay down rules?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, it is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: What were those requirements?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: To carry out special instructions, tasks and one could be included for this purpose with the BRL.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did they look at a person's background, dependability etc?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, they did.  The person had to be dependable and wished to fight for the BWB.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you become a member of the BRL and what rank did you have?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: I was a member of the BRL and I was a Commandant in the BWB.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you become a member of the BRL as a Commandant in 1993?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Just a moment Mr Prinsloo, was he a Commandant in the BRL or the BWB, that wasn't clear.

ADV PRINSLOO: Is it correct that you were a Commandant in the BRL?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Mr Chairman, I was a Commandant in the BWB, but a member of the BRL.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you have the same rank in the BRL?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Harmse, you are aware of the meetings held at Kempton Park, known as CODESA?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: And you are also aware that certain negotiations were taking place at that stage at CODESA?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, those negotiations at the time were aimed at handing over the country to the ANC/SACP alliance by negotiations.

ADV PRINSLOO: I refer you to paragraph 10 of Exhibit A ... (tape ends) ...

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: The BWB were against negotiations with communists as such and they also at various meetings stated that they would not negotiate, but that they would rather fight for their country.

ADV PRINSLOO: Let me state it this way, was there any reference to a specific race group?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, it is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: By the BWB?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes.  There was specific reference also to our religion, because there were many Muslims in the ANC who were of high rank in the ANC and once they had taken over, our religion would be totally under threat.

ADV PRINSLOO: During your membership of the BWB, meetings were held, is that correct?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: Specific meetings were held by the BWB, let me state it that way.  Is it correct that there was a meeting held at Cullinan in 1993?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, there was a meeting in Cullinan.

ADV PRINSLOO: Was that in May 1993?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: Now what happened at that meeting?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: At that meeting a video recording was made where the BWB would declare war against the then government
because they wanted to hand over the country to the ANC/SACP alliance.  During the recording BWB members wore masks and they had a show of force by carrying arms, firearms and firing off tear gas.

ADV PRINSLOO: After this meeting at Cullinan and the show of force there, there was another meeting held at Belfast, a rally?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: Once again by the BWB?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, that was also held on a farm in a shed where the BWB members once again wore masks and a variety of flags were pinned up against the walls - the Vierkleur, four coloured flag and the BWB flag and war was declared against the then government.

ADV PRINSLOO: And was there a video recording made at all?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, a video recording was made of this.

ADV PRINSLOO: What became of these video recordings, do you know?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: I kept the copies of the videos with me and when I was arrested, this was confiscated by the South African Police Force.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you hand these to them?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: No, they confiscated them - it themselves.

ADV PRINSLOO: After the meeting at Belfast, there was a further meeting in Rustenburg, is that correct?.

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: That is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: At whose place was this meeting held?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: This was on the farm of Mr Andrew Ford.

ADV PRINSLOO: That would be the leader of the BWB?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: That is the case.

ADV PRINSLOO: And was he present?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, he was also present at this meeting.

ADV PRINSLOO: Persons attending this meeting, who were these?  Were these officers, general public?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: These were the officers of the Boer Resistance Army.

ADV PRINSLOO: Exclusively officers?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: That is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: Were any decisions made at this particular meeting at Rustenburg?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: At this particular meeting it was mentioned that we had to prepare for war and that there would be a coup d'etat since there were Boer Resistance Army staff at several at the electrical power stations who were staff at these power stations and who could then switch off the power supply.

ADV PRINSLOO: What other instructions were given at this meeting?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: There was the additional instruction that everyone in their own area, had to generate chaos.  We were supposed to identify our own targets and advance the aims and goals of the Boer Resistance Army with our own initiative and we could decide on our own, what methods we wanted to use.  At that time I had already obtained explosives, which we had been instructed to collect.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you have knowledge with regard to the use of explosives?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, that is correct.  I worked on the mines where I had seen how explosives were used.

ADV PRINSLOO: Were the members of the Boer Resistance Army trained in any way with regard to the use of explosives?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: ;	Yes, I provided training with regard to the
use of explosives to members of the Boer Resistance Army.

ADV PRINSLOO: Where did this training take place?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: The training took place on the farm of Mr Andrew Ford.

ADV PRINSLOO: Could you tell us roughly when this occurred?  You've already referred to meetings.

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, such training normally took place during meetings.  During the course of meetings.

ADV PRINSLOO: If you look at Exhibit A, paragraph 14, during September 1993, were you in hospital?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: I want to state it to you further,  was the person next to you, Mr Froneman, known to you?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, he is known to me.  I chose him, or selected him as a member of my cell since we worked with a cell structure in the Boer Resistance Army.  I chose him to work with me.

ADV PRINSLOO: To return to these cell groups.  Did every cell consist of a leader and members or troops?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, every cell consisted of two or more persons, normally an officer and someone whom he could select as a trustworthy person.

ADV PRINSLOO: This would then have been Mr Froneman whom you trusted?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, that is the case.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you in any way give instructions to Mr Froneman?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, I instructed Mr Froneman to experiment with a wide range of explosive devices which he then did.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you in any way train Mr Froneman with regard to the operation of the explosive devices?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, I did.