Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, my information is to the effect that he was told in the past that if he testifies at this hearing, he will be dealt with in the same fashion as the late, as it was dealt with inasfar as the late Chris Hani is concerned, and this was repeated last night, and therefore, Mr Chairperson, members of the committee ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) mention his name?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ...I am therefore making that application that his evidence be heard in camera, for the reasons advanced.  I may mention that I have requested that witness protection be arranged for the witness as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please, will you hold over.   You can go outside and sing if you wish to.   This committee is still in session.
	The committee has the power, in appropriate cases, to hear the evidence of witness or witnesses in camera.  We haven't decided whether we are going to accede to that request.   The proper procedure is for us to be satisfied whether we should accede to that request, and in order for us to be satisfied, we will have to hear evidence on this aspect of the matter, to evaluate for ourselves how serious the threat is and so on.   For that purpose, it would be necessary to clear the hall, so that we can hear the evidence, the application rather, in camera.   If we decide that there is no need to hear the evidence in camera, you will then be allowed into the hall while the witness is giving evidence, so you are please requested to leave the hall.
	...to be present, but I don't think she's entitled to be present, because if she is, the any other witness who's given evidence.

MR PRINSLOO: Because, Mr Chairman, there are people now in the hall, like Mrs Hani, for instance, and Mr Kroenig.   He's not an attorney.

CHAIRPERSON: I've only agreed for Mrs Hani to be present.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: The cameras will be switched off.   Can the witness please come forward?   He's disappeared.

MR VISSER: ...(Indistinct)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You've been asked to come and give evidence this morning at this hearing.

MR VISSER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And are you willing to give evidence?

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR VISSER: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Why it is that you wish to give evidence in camera?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I can explain to the committee in a broad sense that my case began in 1993, in April 1993.   I applied for amnesty in April 1995.   During my application during 1995, the first copy of my amnesty application was faxed to Cape Town.   	With the second application, it was requested of us to hand in the original at the offices here in Johannesburg, that was on the Saturday, and on the cut-off date for the amnesty applications, me and Mr Roodt, at that stage, went to hand in our applications.

CHAIRPERSON: The sound has been cut off, not to go to the media, so it may not go through the earphones.   Okay, I'm told the earphones can be used, I just directed they cut it, it shouldn't go out to the media.

MR VISSER: On the Saturday, on that cut-off date for the amnesty applications, 12 o'clock midnight, Mr Roodt contacted me on the Sunday and asked me to come to his home urgently.   He told me that four persons on that particular afternoon had paid a visit to him at his home.   He could not identify them or tell me who they were, but these persons informed him that they were aware that we had applied for amnesty and they already possessed our amnesty applications.   At that point, I informed my advocate, Herman Kriel, thereof, and after that, with the first appearance in Pretoria, for which I was subpoenaed, he made it known to Mr Mpshe, and after that from time to time, as soon as the specific case would come to the fore, I would receive calls saying that I should be very careful regarding that which I would disclose, that I should not place anybody at a disadvantage, or violence would be used.  And even last night, I have told the police another call was made to me, and I feel that I cannot testify properly under these circumstances in which I have been placed, and I don't know what the objective of these calls to my home are, and that is why I'm requesting of the committee, I will, I'm willing to deliver testimony, but I would like for provision to be made that I testify in camera and that is why I'm making this request to the committee.

CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned the name of Mr Roodts, who is he?

MR VISSER: Mr Roodt is also a person who has applied for amnesty. I do not have his relevant information, but my legal representative's advice to him was to apply for amnesty as well and his application is also being heard currently in Cape Town.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is he connected in any way with the troubles that you had?

MR VISSER: Yes, at that stage he was in command of the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging in the West Rand, he was one of the leaders there.

CHAIRPERSON: And the case that you talk about, when did that case commence?

MR VISSER: I can't hear.

CHAIRPERSON: The case against you, you were talking about the case in which you're involved, when did that commence?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, it began in April 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: When did it end?

MR VISSER: It ended last year in October, on the 28th of October.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you indicate this to the people who asked you to give evidence or who've enquired from you whether you're prepared to give evidence, that you've received threats?

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that on the occasion when you were here with your Advocate Kriel?

MR VISSER: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And when were these threats made for the first time?

MR VISSER: The first time was on the Sunday after we had handed in our applications in Johannesburg.

CHAIRPERSON: What month are you talking about?

MR VISSER: April 1996.

CHAIRPERSON: And when next was a certain threat made.

MR VISSER: The next one was when the first hearing took place in Pretoria, that was in, I'm not sure of the dates, but I think it was last year, October.   And after that in December again and now once again.

CHAIRPERSON: I have difficulty understanding why such a threat was made to you in April 1996?

MR VISSER: Chairperson ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: That was at the time when you had lodged an application for amnesty?

MR VISSER: Yes.   The point that I wish to make is that my amnesty application, well according to the law it is confidential, it's clearly stipulated in the law that it is confidential ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: No, I understand that.

MR VISSER: ...and it fell into the hands of those who were not authorised access to it the day after these documents had been served in the TRC's offices.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions you wish to put?   Perhaps I'm moving a little bit ahead, but Mr Bizos, am I right in thinking that the witness is coming at your instance?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, Mr Chairman.   Perhaps I should place the following on record, that our information in relation to this witness comes from the commission drawing our attention to Exhibit Q before you, which is his application for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'll have a look at it, but I was trying to, you know, to be able to assess, well to decide the application one must, of course, know what the relevance, possible relevance of his evidence is, how important it is before, and then one can weigh it against possible harm to himself and so on and so forth.   What I wanted to know was, the thrust of his evidence, what is the core of his evidence.

GEORGE BIZOS: It appears on page 7 of his application for amnesty, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit Q.   My exhibits are so "deurmekaar".  Sorry, is there a particular page that you ...(intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: 7.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 7.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

GEORGE BIZOS: It's only the one page and one sentence of it.