Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

MR NTSEBEZA: Now let me try and understand that.  Are you saying, in this document you are saying when a climate is right a specialised operation of the proposed clandestine committee is possible?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: You are also saying, if the climate is not right it can be created?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: What I am saying here is it implies if the climate is not right then you can ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: You can create it.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: No, you can create the opposite as well.  You can create the favourable situation or you can create an unfavourable situation.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.  In other words you can create a climate to be right if it is not right.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: That is why I said it is a specialised operation and we did not have these people to do things like that.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes, no, no, no, it's only an enquiry.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes I know.

MR NTSEBEZA: What I want us to understand is that there is something that is recommended.  You either have a climate in which a specialised of the nature recommended, clandestine committee can operate.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Or if it is not right, if the climate is not right you could create a climate.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: You could create the opposite as well, this is what I explained.

MR NTSEBEZA: But do I understand you to be saying, it was your conclusion ...(intervention)

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: May I elaborate.

MR NTSEBEZA: ....that work already has been done in that direction by the Western Cape SADF Command?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I was under the impression it was done Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.  Which is why you put it there as a conclusion.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: That's why I put it there.

MR NTSEBEZA: And your observation, and I am sure that it flowed from the discussions that had gone on, was that work that had already been done as at that stage when you wrote this report, was that the Fathers would be brought into a resistance against the Comrades.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: That is what I understood it to be.

MR NTSEBEZA: You understood that to have been work that had already been done by the SADF?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: In the Western Cape.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Or by the S-JMC, whatever.

MR NTSEBEZA: Ja.  Now in the context ...(intervention)

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I mean the Western Cape JMC, sorry.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes, ja.  In the context of the KTC/Crossroads saga the Comrades would be the people associated with Yamile, Toyisa and all those other people?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I did not know to which group they belonged to Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Oh I see.   And Ngxobongwana?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I was aware of the names.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes, yes.  Now 11.B seems to say this is already being done in regard to the fact that the memo has been written pertaining to this recently, was that your conclusion?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: That was the conclusion Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you.   Now I think finally you indicated in your evidence that there were occasions at which you did receive matters that were dealt with, there were not very many of those cases, but very few of them, at which you received matters that were dealt with in the WP-JMC.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now I am not saying the document which I believe you have is one of those missage - or one of those documents which you got from the WP-JMC, but there is a signal message that purports to come from the WP-JMC to the Secretariat of the State Security Council, do you see that document?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Can I just - have you got a reference on that document and the date Sir so we can just verify the document?

MR NTSEBEZA: The document seems to have been received by the State Security Council secretariat on the 21st of May 1986.  It's a signal message saying "Berig Vorm".

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: WP-GBS/548/21 May '86?

MR NTSEBEZA: Ja, ja.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: That's the one.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now do you see the date of that document?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: That is the date that was originated if I am correct, 21 May.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.   Now I don't know whether you are aware the attack on the (...indistinct) camps in this area were between the 17th and the 21st of May 1986.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I must have been aware Sir, that incident report will reflect that Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.  And if you look at this document can you read no.G thereof into the record.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Afrikaans, paragraph G of the document which is mentioned
"Fathers are well-disposed towards the Security Forces, and they want law and order.  Fathers cannot be openly supported due to the hostility of the leftist press".

MR NTSEBEZA: Now can you - is a fair English translation of what you have just read into the record the following
"Fathers are well-disposed towards the Security Forces...."

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I will translate.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes, if you could.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: "The Fathers are sympathetic towards the Security Forces and will want law and order. The Fathers cannot be supported openly because of the hostility of the leftist press".

MR NTSEBEZA: Right.  So in other words this message, this signal from the Western Cape, this signal message form sending this message from the Western Cape JMC to the Secretariat of the State Security Council was saying, the Fathers, by which we now know and understand to have been a reference to the Witdoeke, are well-disposed toward the Security Forces and will want to have law and order.  Fathers cannot be supported openly because of the hostility of the leftist press.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: That's what the document says.

MR NTSEBEZA: That's what the document says.  And do you say that this is not one of those documents that you received from the Western Province JMC?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I normally never - I can't remember if I received this document.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see, ja.  And what do you understand to be meant by "the hostility of the leftist press"?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Perhaps they didn't want - the leftist press at the time didn't want to publish what either they wanted them to publish or either what was happening, according to what they perceived to what was happening.

MR NTSEBEZA: And they regarded it to be hostile?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: The following page, as a matter of fact, in 3 there, can you read that into the record?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: "Western Province Committee meets today and visits Crossroads to exploit the situation.  The situation is perhaps favourable for upgrading of Crossroads, for example, to make a road through the area".

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.  Now in English, can you translate that into English.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: JMC daily management met and visited Crossroads with the aim to take advantage or exploit the situation and to make the climate favourable for upgrading of Crossroads to build a road through the area".

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.  Now I have indicated to you that the attack on Crossroads, or the relevant part of Crossroads had taken place between the 17th and the 21st and this message is being sent from Cape Town here to the State Security Council Secretariat on the 21st?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Quite right.

MR NTSEBEZA: And would it be fair then to conclude that the situation which the JMC felt must be exploited was the fact that those who were attacked with the view to removing them from a certain area in order that the area must be consolidated, had been achieved there?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: With respect Sir, with respect, this document was written by the Western Cape JMC.