Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-03

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr De Beer.  Do you have any questions you'd like to put, Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No questions Chairperson, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Do you have any re-examination Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: Yes, I do Chairperson, very few questions.

MR KOOPEDI: Now Mr Nondula, were you at any stage a member of the National Executive Committee of the ANC?

MR NONDULA: Not at all.

MR KOOPEDI: Were you at any stage a member of Military Headquarters?

MR NONDULA: Not at all Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: The PMC, Political Military Council?

MR NONDULA: Not at all, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: The National Working Committee?

MR NONDULA: Not at all, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Were you at any stage given minutes of their meetings?

MR NONDULA: Not at all, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Did you ever attend any of their meetings, that is perhaps prior to you undertaking this mission?

MR NONDULA: Not at all, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: And finally, when you were in the country, that is when you were sent in to do this operation, you personally, did you have a discretion as to where a landmine could be placed?

MR NONDULA: The discretion, as I've said earlier, lay with the Commander of the unit, himself.

MR KOOPEDI: Now in any of these mines, is there a stage where you were given an opportunity to decide where to put any of these mines?

MR NONDULA: Not at all Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, is it your evidence that with the unit you were with where all mines were planted, this was per instructions of your immediate Commander and not your own initiative?

MR NONDULA: Correct, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: No further questions, thanks Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi.  Adv Bosman, do you have any questions that you would like to put?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Nondula, according to your evidence, if I understand correctly, you never observed any civilians in the area?

MR NONDULA: No, not at all.

ADV BOSMAN: If you had observed civilians, would it have made any difference to what you did?

MR NONDULA: I doubt it because I took the instructions as they came.  If then the discretion of the Commander at that time would have been otherwise, I would have followed those instructions.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Sibanyoni, any questions you'd like to put?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank  you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Nondula, I see there was a trial where this thing was fully canvassed.  Was it possible to identify you with specific instances where these landmines either killed people or injured people?

MR NONDULA: Can you come again Sir, I can't follow your question.

MR SIBANYONI: As you are sitting there, do you know, do you have any knowledge as to which people were injured or killed by the landmines which your unit planted?

MR NONDULA: Yes, the first time I heard about it was in the news.  It must have been, ja it was on the 15th of December 1985 and then a follow-up was made through the newspapers that we bought and then prior to the trial itself and during the trial, then I came to see some of those who actually were injured or were affected by my actions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I think what Mr Sibanyoni's asking is do you know whether the mines that your unit, where you were actually involved in the actual laying of the mines, who the victims were of the mines laid by you.  In other words do you know whether you laid the mine which the vehicle containing the van Eck's for instance was driving, or the vehicle containing the De Nysschen's was driving in?

MR NONDULA: If I follow the question correctly Mr Chairperson, the mines that I was made to identify at some point.  I was able to say:  "Yes, I remember this occasion and that occasion", but I cannot now with definite assurance say:  "Yes, I remember all those areas."

MR SIBANYONI: Were the co-applicants sitting next to you belonging to the other unit?

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the Panel, Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: None, thanks Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wagener?

MR WAGENER: Thank you Chairman.

MR WAGENER: On this last question of Mr Sibanyoni, do you concede that you were convicted in respect of the mine that killed the De Nysschen and Van Eck families?

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: And that was done on the basis of a confession made by you prior to the trial?

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: And also on the basis of certain points that you pointed out to the investigating officers?

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: And although you didn't testify in the criminal case, you were convicted on strength of that?

MR NONDULA: Yes, Sir.

MR WAGENER: Thank you Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGTENER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wagener.  Mr de Beer?

MR DE BEER: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR DE BEER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Nondula.  That completes your testimony, you may stand down now.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson.  That constitutes the evidence in as far as the application of applicant Nondula is concerned.  I would like to call the next applicant, Chairperson.
 I will be guided by you in terms of the breaks we are to have, I realise we are behind times.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we should have a very short break.  Five minutes.  Not five minutes meaning thirty-five minutes.  Just a five minute break to give the interpreters time to let their throats rest for a while and perhaps have a drink of water or something.  We'll just take a very short adjournment now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS