Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-05

WITNESS:   We got there and found M Z Khumalo and they related their story, because it subsequently got clear that they would spend time with us.  Now they wanted some means of how they could work with one another and MZ told them that according to his knowledge there was a meeting which was scheduled upon the arrival of the other group, but as for that time, he hadn't prepared anything.  Now we had to

MR MACADAM: /wait

MR MACADAM: 2B wait for that meeting that will take place after the return of the rest of the group and we got back.  One other point that was discussed was that as the training was nearing to an end, was there - was the passing out parade going to be there, that was the question and they said from their side, as they were in the government of the Boers, Magnus Malan will be there.  From IFP Dr Buthelezi will be present and when we returned, we told the recruits just that and they were trained as to how they will welcome and practise the passing out parade, but that did not happen.  MZ arrived with Brigadier Van Niekerk, who was senior to these others like JJ and Swart and I asked the question as to where the President(?) was and he said no, he thinks it was not going to be safe for him to be with Malan because it - that could cause danger for him, that is why he, MZ, came.  Now the demonstration was - took place and there was a video that was taken of the four groups that I have already dilated upon.  Now they were going from each group to another to demonstrate their training.  Now when they were specialising the four groups, they were now completely divided in that they will not gain any access to what the other group was doing.  After we completed the demonstration, the bodyguards left first, because there was a training that they did not undertake, known as offensive and defensive driving, because the area was forest kind of.  After they finished that we all left for Ulundi.  When we arrived in Ulundi, they - the whole group was asked to go home to their respective homes and they will be notified in due course when to come back nor(?) return.  At the time when they were leaving going to their

MR MACADAM: /respective

MR MACADAM: 2B respective homes, they were told as well that all what was taught to them should be put in practise in their respective areas and after that they were called to be - to meet the President of IFP, who arrived and accepted them and welcomed them very positively and was impressed and thanked them for coming back and also emphasised on the fact that he was not comfortable and safe.  He thought he was being hunted and people threatened to kill him as well and now that they were back, the trainees, he felt so securely and he felt brave enough because he will be under their wings.  He even gave them a bull, a cow, to be slaughtered in celebration of their return and lo and behold they celebrated there and everybody was ecstatic and the mood was so jubilant and people were thankful that they went for training and were back intact.

MR MACADAM: [Break in recording] ... return, was there at any stage a decision taken as to do with - what will be done with these people who had received the training?

WITNESS:   After the celebration, they were told to go back to their respective homes whilst they were still planning the next programme.  One day Mashobane came to me, who is the brother of M Z Khumalo or I refer to Khumalo when I say Mashobane, I'm talking about one person, Mashobane or Khumalo.  He took me with to 121 Battalion in Empangeni where I found out that Brigadier Van Niekerk was present and Colonel Botha of Special Branch and Cloete and JP were there and others.

MR MACADAM: The person, JP, whom you mentioned, who was he?  Had you seen him previously at all?

WITNESS:   I had seen him previously.  JP was an instructor in Caprivi who was the one who trained the defensive group for those who were

MR MACADAM: /doing

MR MACADAM: 2B doing intelligence and Cloete was the one who was an instructor as well, but he instructed the offensive group.  They were all present in that meeting.

MR MACADAM: Can you recall whether he was an army or a police brigadier?

WITNESS:   Brigadier Van Niekerk was a soldier, a very strong one, who was the one who was behind everything that was taking place in Caprivi and he came often times than not with Mr Khumalo.

MR MACADAM: What was discussed at this meeting?

WITNESS:   The agenda of the meeting was to discuss their return and how would they function and operate.  That's when the decision was made that the offensive group should be kept aloof and alone in Port Dunford next to Empangeni.  It will be kept there and alert and JP with(?) Opperman will be with the offensive where it would be based and their duty would be to attack and train once again the new recruits of IFP and the contra-mobilisation, Inkatha will take it upon themselves to build offices throughout Natal and Transvaal to deploy this contra-mobilisation to those respective areas, because they were solely trained to organise and recruit for IFP and the defensive group will also be separated to help the contra-mobilisation one, so that any new information that will be gathered, we as the planning committee here, will send a word to the offensive to attack.  That was done whilst they had gone back to their respective homes, in their absence.  The offensive group was kept separately from the rest and alone in Port Dunford.  Another time when we were still in Caprivi, the money to pay these people will always be brought by Mr Swart, the one who was a commander, a prominent, a senior one to JJ(?) with M Z Khumalo.  Even when we got

MR MACADAM: /back,

MR MACADAM: 2B back, he still went on with his duty, that is Mr Swart.

MR MACADAM: Was anybody in charge of the defensive and contra- mobilisation groups after this meeting had taken place in 121 Battalion?

WITNESS:   As a commissar there was one other commander of the whole group, Thompson(?) Gcsibe(?) and when we got back we found out that he was not fit and I was therefore appointed to this office.  Now I had two positions.  I will be Political Commissar and at the same time will be the commander.  I got the position of ... (intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: Can I just clarify one thing?  When Mr Luthuli says Mr Gcsibe was "ukukhathala", did it mean weak or ill?  In Zulu it could be very confusing, it could mean both, so just for clarification.

WITNESS:   I will say when he got back he showed or he exhibited signs of heavy drinking and that the boys who were trained in Caprivi lost respect and credibility in him and he also showed and exhibit peculiar signs and proved to be very different from the one I knew in Caprivi, but I will dilate upon that.  He was given - I will expand on that issue.  He was given a group which was based in Sasol.  That was done in order to test him, but it was realised and discovered that he could not bear and could not take the whole thing and I was sent to Sasol to fetch him and I discovered that he wasn't well and was also mentally disturbed.

MR MACADAM: What happened next after that?

WITNESS:   After that, together with M Z Khumalo we opened up offices from Port Shepstone, Ixopo, Pietermaritzburg, Nambithi Madadeni, Mapumulo, Ingwavuma, Empangeni, Hammarsdale and other places which I don't remember at the moment and we

MR MACADAM: /took

MR MACADAM: 2B took people to distribute in those places.  These were IFP offices and they were conducted through the main office at Ulundi by M Z Khumalo and my work was to visit all these different offices and to put or accommodate in them the Caprivi trainees.

MR MACADAM: What happened then once these people had been placed in these various offices?