Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

ADV PRINSLOO: Is u bekend met daardie onthulling?

UNKNOWN: Ja, ek is bekend met die onthulling, ek dink hierdie artikel was maar net 'n verdere artikel gewees, na verdere onthullings. U sal onthou dat Operasie Vula het reeds in 1990 het hy aan die lig gekom, en hierdie artikel in 1993 was na aanleiding van 'n boek wat deur Ronnie Kasrils geskryf is.  Die boek se naam was Armed and Dangerous, en dan die artikel hierso handel oor die boek en
"The second and final extract from his book Armed and Dangerous, Ronnie Kasrils describes how as part of Operation Vula he secretly entered South Africa prior to the unbanning of the ANC and how the police uncovered the operation."

ADV PRINSLOO: So dit was inderdaad 'n goed beplande instelling gewees?

UNKNOWN: Dit is reg, ja.  Met verwysing weer na die Bewysstuk F wat gese het dat hierdie operasie sou eintlik nie eers deur 'n verkiesing gestuit kon word nie, of deur die onderhandelings gestuit kan word nie.
	Its implementation would have carried on regardless of what was agreed to at the negotiating table.

ADV PRINSLOO: Net 'n oomblik se geduld, mnr die Voorsitter.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

ADV PRINSLOO: Om net terug te keer na die PAC, mnr Van der Graaff. U het verwys na 'n spesifieke geval in Zimbabwe.  Die persoon wat daar betrokke was, was nou ene Augustine Chihori, wat daar vervolg was.

UNKNOWN: Inderdaad.

ADV PRINSLOO: En dit is tydens die verhoor gewees van die waarnemende Kommissaris van die Zimbabwe Polisie.  Was u bekend daarmee of nie, mnr Van der Graaff?

UNKNOWN: Ja, dit is so in die koerantberig aangehaal.

ADV PRINSLOO: Nou mnr Van der Graaff, was daar verskeie aanvalle gewees wat na bewering gepleeg was deur die PAC.  Dit is nou in die periode 1991, ek wil dit aan u stel, in Februarie 1991 te Botshabelo in die Oos-Vrystaat, die Oranje-Vrystaat, was daar gebruik gemaak gewees van 'n Ak-47 gewees en daar was 'n winkeleienaar aangeval gewees en die aanvalle was geidentifiseer as ene Christopher Leo Mohlome, wat na bewering lid van Apla sou wees en opgelei sou gewees het.

UNKNOWN: Dit is in die media so gerapporteer ja, Voorsitter.

ADV PRINSLOO: En dan ook 'n geval, op die 18de Junie 1991 was daar 'n gewapende roof gewees, uitgevoer by die Ramahutsi Poskantoor te Botshabelo en 'n bedrag van
R2 983,00 was daar gebuit gewees deur ene Vusi Nhlobo is daar gearresteer, op die 1ste Julie 1991, in verband met daardie roof. En daar was weer eens in sy besit gevind 'n Ak-47.  En daar was ook 150 rondtes ammunisie sowel as 'n Chinese stokgrenaat.

UNKNOWN: Dit is ook so gerapporteer in die media, Voorsitter.

ADV PRINSLOO: Ja, dan mnr Van der Graaff, was daar talle gevalle van aanvalle gedoen, ek wil nie na almal vir u verwys nie, met datums en detail, maar ek wil u verwys na die geval van die St James Kerk. U is bekend daarmee?

UNKNOWN: Ek is bekend daarmee, Voorsitter.

ADV PRINSLOO: En dit was gewees op die 25ste Julie 1993, om halfagt die aand, is daar 'n aanval in die St James Katedraal gewees.   Daar is gebruik gemaak gewees van 5,56 mm outomatiese vuurwapens,  9 mm pistole en 'n M26 handgrenaat, handgrenate is daar gebruik en daar is 11 mense wat daar gedood is in daardie geval.

UNKNOWN: Dis korrek, Voorsitter.

ADV PRINSLOO: En daarvoor is mense aangekla en dit is ook na bewering uitgevoer deur Apla, PAC.

UNKNOWN: Dis reg, ja, Voorsitter.  'n Mens kan miskien ... (tussenbeide).

ADV PRINSLOO: Dan was daar ook 'n aanval gewees te King William's Town by 'n golfklub, waar ook 'n aanval was op verskeie mense, ook deur Apla.

UNKNOWN: Dis korrek, Voorsitter.

ADV PRINSLOO: Geen verdere vrae nie, dankie, mnr die Voorsitter.
GEEN VERDERE VRAE DEUR ADV PRINSLOO

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe?

UNKNOWN: No questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

HASSAN MALL: Thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: Dankie, Voorsitter.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MEV VAN DER WALT: Mnr die Voorsitter, dit sal dan al getuies wees wat ek roep vir mnr Van Eyck, dankie.

ADV PRINSLOO: That also concludes the evidence of Mr Gerber, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Yes, have you any submissions to make to us on the evidence which you have produced?  I'm sorry.  Mr Mpshe, do you propose leading evidence?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman, I propose evidence on two witnesses, very short evidence.

HASSAN MALL: Oh, I'm sorry, sorry, I overlooked that. Yes, please do call your witnesses.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I then call Mamagsla Jack Makuna, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Can you spell M-A-M-O-G-A-L-A, Jack, Makuna will be M-K-O-A-N-A.

UNKNOWN: If the Committee could just bear with us, he is just coming down the stairs.  The witness is going to testify in English, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: In what language is he going to testify, Mr Mpshe?

UNKNOWN: In English, Mr Chairman.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: (Duly sworn, states).

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, the members of the Committee, the evidence of the witness will not cover his whole statement as given, because his evidence is covered mainly in the record, the court record that is before every member of this Committee, on pages 11 to page 30. I am only going to lead the witness on certain aspects of his statement.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Before you do that, the copy of the record I have is not paginated.  Could you assist us with that later?

UNKNOWN: That will be done.

HASSAN MALL: Yes, Mr Mpshe?

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  Mr Mkoana, it is so that you are an employee of Fidelity Guards.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: And it is so that the deceased Samuel Kanaga was your colleague at Fidelity Guards?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That is correct, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: And further that the two applicants here today were also your colleagues and commanders?

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That is correct, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: I want to take you a little bit back to the month of May 1991, at the stage where you were in the office with applicant number one, Mr Gerber and others, including the deceased, Samuel Kanaga.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: According to your statement you wrote the fact that you entered the office of Mr Gerber.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And Mr Gerber entered later and found you in that office that morning.  Could you tell us what happened.

UNKNOWN: What happened that particular morning, I reported on duty as usual as Brig Van Wyk who was my superior. It means every day I am supposed to report direct to him, he was on leave by that time.  So before he went on leave he called me to his office saying that as from that day I have to report to Mr Gerber.  Then on that particular morning I reported on duty as usual to him.  What I used to do every morning I report on duty and then collect the radio which I was using it, maybe in case of emergency during the course of the day. So he said to me no, Jack, today you are not going out, since I have got a suspect in my office who has got certain information concerning the robbery which happened on the 17th of April.  So - and I think he has got also the other information of the money which disappeared in the basement, which is about R60 000,00.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Can you speak a little bit slowly, not go too fast, we are desperately trying to catch up with you.,

UNKNOWN: Please go slow, Mr Mkoana.

MAMOGALA JACK MKOANA: And then he then said to me I must proceed into his office, the suspect is there in his office.  And on arrival in Mr Gerber's office I found the deceased, Samuel Kanaga sitting on the floor. I then ask him the reason why he is in Mr Gerber's office.  His explanation it was that on that particular morning it was before six o'clock, he was supposed to report off duty. Then as usual what the guards are doing, is before they report off duty, they go to the changing room to have a shower ...
(END OF TAPE)
DAY 2 - TAPE 1 - SIDE A