Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-03-30

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Ntonga what you don't read in that is what comes before that there was a lady already screaming by that time so something else must have happened that he hasn't spoken about.  Sorry I just think we've got to be fair to this witness and it's - again we're dealing with different bits of the story.  This happened in a different place, this counting room is different from where possibly the shooting took place.  I don't know for sure but that seems to be the impression I have.

MR NTONGA: That's why I said I'm not putting him in this because he might have been unconscious at the time or had his own problems at the time but from the statement there is somebody who said they were at some stage ordered to lie down.  I'm not putting him to task for that, he had his own problems by then.
	The security people that is UNITRA security police were wearing their university security uniform.  Is that correct?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That is so.

MR NTONGA: And you were not wearing any uniform so you were on ordinary civilian clothes?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That is so.

MR NTONGA: And you did not have your guns exposed to the public for reasons as known to you for security reasons maybe?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That is so.

MR NTONGA: So inside that auditorium there were already two security in their uniform and the number was increased by three of you who were not in uniform but policemen?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That is true.

MR NTONGA: Fine. The difficulty I have here is that I'm appearing for someone who was not inside the auditorium but outside and if the Chairperson allow me to ask this question - his report - the report received from the men who were inside was that the policemen in plain clothes starting shooting when they realised what was happening and then the people who were there retaliated.  Do you have any comments on that?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: We were not the first to shoot.

MR NTONGA: I won't take it any further.

UNKNOWN: Can I just ask this.  Did you shoot at all as far as you know?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I never shot.
ADV. GCABASHE: But you drew your firearm once the security officer next to you had been shot?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That is so.

MR NTONGA: Did you point it or did you draw it out of your waist and point it and he shot before you fired or exactly what happened?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: As I was drawing my gun it fell whilst I was still drawing it before I could even point it.

MR NTONGA: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did it fall?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: It was the time I was shot at.

MR NTONGA: So you say the time you were shot at it was in your hand?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: The time I was shot at I heard, could feel the pain of the bullet entering my body and the gun whilst I was drawing it out, fell.

MR NTONGA: To your knowledge did any members of the University security or other policemen fire in the auditorium or do you have no knowledge of that?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I did not see anybody shooting or heard nobody shooting.
ADV. SANDI: Did you see anyone of the university security gentlemen trying to take out his firearm?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I never saw any.
ADV. SANDI: You talked about Mr Mankunga or Mankupa I'm not sure if I've got the name correctly, was it Mr Mankupa?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: It was father Mankumba the one who was a security guard.
ADV. SANDI: What was he doing when he was shot?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: It is when we're still asking where's the gun and where is everything happening here at the auditorium.

MR NTONGA: Could the court just bear with me?
	When this happened the other policemen I assume there were also three that have come to relieve had already left the premises of the university or were they still around in the university?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: They were already gone.

MR NTONGA: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions for this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NTONGA

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman, just a few questions.
	Mr Pama, I'm the evidence leader for the Amnesty Committee, I'd like to just ask you a few questions to clarify certain points.
	If I understand your evidence correctly, when you arrived with your contingent, you were three in number is that correct, three policemen?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That is so, yes.

UNKNOWN: Is it correct as you enter the main door of the auditorium as you look up you see the seating and then the stairs that lead up to a first level, is that correct?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I can't understand about the first level, can you please repeat the question?

UNKNOWN: Well if you enter from the front door or the main door and you climb the stairs where do you go to?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: You enter from the bottom, you ascend the stairs, it's chairs all around as they are going up, you get to the top.

UNKNOWN: And what's at the top?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: It is the place or the room where they are registering students.

UNKNOWN: Alright and did you then meet up with the UNITRA security officers that is Mr Makumba and Mr Mkizwana at the top of the stairs?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: We met at the top of the stairs, they talked to father Makumba, Mr Mkizwayo and Klokozile were the ones I was walking with.

UNKNOWN: I see.  The other policemen that had entered with you did he remain below - Mr Mkizwayo?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: We entered the place together, they were not left behind.

UNKNOWN: So he also said - was registration - had the registration of the students been completed at that stage or were there still students within the auditorium when you had entered?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: Because we could not determine who these people were, we could not determine whether they were students or not, there was people there but they were not many.

UNKNOWN: Sorry the question is more - had registration as far as you were aware at that stage, had the registration of students ended or did you not know or did you think there was still registration going on?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: We thought registration was still going on because it was still open.

UNKNOWN: And when these three or four persons who you believed were students who later turned out to be the attackers and you say that's the reason why you thought they were students, is that correct?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That is so, yes.

UNKNOWN: Now listening to your evidence and I gain the impression and correct me if I'm mistaken that the shooting occurred very suddenly and without warning, it was an unexpected event, is that correct?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: Yes that is so.

UNKNOWN: And as far as you were concerned there was no warning shout for example that these people were APLA, that they were there just to take the money and that they weren't going to hurt anybody, is that correct, do I understand that to be the position?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: They did not do that, that is true.  If they had done that....[intervention]

UNKNOWN: And Mr Makumba, sorry please continue, you say if they'd done that?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: If they had done that we would have given up because we knew they were armed, we would not have resisted.

UNKNOWN: And Mr Makumba was the first person that you noticed being shot is that correct?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That is true.

UNKNOWN: And he was in the security uniform of the university?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: Yes that is true.

UNKNOWN: Are you able to tell the committee what Mr Mkizwayo or your other colleague, I think it's Totile, I forget his name, did at that stage of the shooting - do you know where they went or what they did?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I did not know what happened to Mr Klokozile because I lost my consciousness, I did not know what he did after that, I would not know what he did when the shooting took place.

UNKNOWN: Why did you draw your firearm?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: Because I saw we were being shot at.

UNKNOWN: Then you were shot is that correct?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: Yes I was shot.