Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-02

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: It wasn't a long distance.  Even if it won't be easy for me to estimate the metres or distance, I would say from here, to estimate, when you are at the gate of the hostel you are able to see a distance and you can be able to see things happening at the vicinity of the garage, when you are standing at the hostel itself where I was standing.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm saying how far can you estimate, how far were you from them?  They were at the garage you say and you were at the gate of the hostel, who far was where they were next to the garage to where you were, which is at the gate of the hostel?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Madam Chair, it's ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You can just estimate with reference to this building.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: With reference to this building we're in, I don't know how long from there, from that side, how long it is from where I'm facing.  I would say one block of the hostel is longer than this building, going to that direction where you are sitting.  It's a very long block and there's also a space where there is a gate.  I think the distance of the hall will cover one block and things which happened, let me say from the other side of the block, while I'm on the other side where there is a gate, meaning the distance of the whole block including the gate space.

CHAIRPERSON: When you talk about the hall, are you talking about this building only or the other houses on the outside, outside rooms?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I would say from the curtain ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You mean from the where the police are sitting until moving up to behind me by the black curtains?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I would say you have to pass those police.  On those curtains there, you can see some curtains behind the police, when you get out of the door there are curtains behind the police and you have to pass those curtains behind you.  That would be the size of one block in the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen, can we approximate that distance?  Would you say it's about 50 metres?

MR CLAASSEN: I do agree to that, I'd say it's about 50 metres.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you say - were these people in one place?  If you say they were about 50 metres away  from you were, were they in one place?  I thought they were at several places around the garage, one block away from the hostel.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Those whom I could see, the two of them which were visible, those who were on the side of the hostel, those are the two people who were visible.  Those who were on the other side I couldn't see because I was shadowed by the bus so I didn't know what they did on the other side but I only saw the two which were on my side.  They were not standing in one position, one place, they were in different places and they didn't take a long time while they were still standing there ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: When in your affidavit you say you saw the four perpetrators throwing grenades, was that a mistake then?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Chairperson, I would say that when they left the hostel and they were told by the Indunas to leave the hostel ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I'm going to interrupt you because I want us to keep to what is relevant.  When you state in your affidavit that you saw the four of them throwing the grenades, that's what you say, you saw them throwing the grenades, was that a mistake?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: That was not a mistake, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: How can that be reconciled with what you've just stated now?  Because you say you only saw two people who were from your side and who were visible and that the others you couldn't have been able to see because they were not within sight?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I'm trying to explain that at the place where I was standing I could see all the four people who were deployed to go and attack the bus.  It's a very clear sight, you can see everything.  As I'm explaining that I saw them when they stood up.  Even those other two on the other side, I did see them standing up as the bus was coming.
	And when they threw the grenade, whether they threw them at the same time into the bus - when they stood up I was looking at them and then there was an explosion and then I ran for hiding and I came back after the bus had disappeared, and then I saw them running back to the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hadebe, you are a man of many words, you don't confine yourself to what is being put to you.  You still haven't answered whether you've made a mistake when you say you saw all four perpetrators throwing handgrenades, and I quote
"and petrol bombs into that bus and they ran back to the hostel."
So it is a mistake what you have stated here in your affidavit because this is not what you actually witnessed, you only saw two and not four people throwing handgrenades at the bus.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: That's correct, Chairperson.  The other two on the other side, I only saw them getting up, standing but when they were throwing the grenades I saw there were only two from my side throwing grenade but those other one from that side, I didn't see how they threw the grenade into the bus.  All that I know is that four people were elected to go and throw  grenades at the bus.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were being questioned by Mr Lax about the reason you gave a false testimony during your criminal trial, you still persisted that it was intended to protect the real perpetrators.  Do you recall having said that?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Yes, I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how would the fact that you denied having participated in the incident at all have gone towards an inch towards protecting the real perpetrators?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: When I say I didn't take part in the attack I wanted to say that the only part I took was the planning and if I were to be arrested as a member of the party, the best thing is to deny and also deny on behalf of those members of the party.  At the same time trying to protect myself that I should be convicted or they be convicted too because that will be not be painting a good picture about my organisation.
	However, my denial or my lie didn't help me because I ended up getting convicted and that is why I'm here today.

CHAIRPERSON: I believe Mr Lax wants to put one question to you before we can move to the second applicant.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.  I'm sorry, there's just a note I'd made and I'd forgotten to ask that question.
	It just relates to - you've told us that, for want of a better description, the balance of power at the workplace in September 1992 was that it was predominantly Uwusa/IFP and that the minority at that stage was now Fawu.  That was your evidence earlier and it was your evidence again under questioning by the Chairperson.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: That's correct.

MR LAX: Now from a reading of the judgment, which is the finding of the judge at your trial, the judge says that as at September 1992 - and I'm translating from the Afrikaans at page 27, line 20
"Fawu was in any event already well established while Uwusa was not properly established."
And this is in the context of him explaining, giving his understanding that most of the aggression came from Uwusa who were trying to gain dominance in the workplace, rather than from Fawu who were trying to retain it.  Do you understand the context and the issue I'm putting to you?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I won't be able to understand why he said that but maybe I might be allowed to give my view on that.

MR LAX: You have given us your view, we've heard you.  You wouldn't agree with what he said.  I'm just drawing your attention to the fact that that is what he found.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Thanks.