Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-15

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: When she phoned me early on the Wednesday evening of the 18th, I think it was.

MR HATTINGH: Pertaining to that telephone discussion of the 18th, the Wednesday, between yourself and Janine, could you just tell the Committee what was discussed between yourself and Janine.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes, well it actually started off purely as Janine wanted to find out if I knew where Michael was as she wanted to know if he was coming back on the Friday or the Saturday.  I said to her that I didn't actually know for sure yet because he hadn't contacted me, but that we did have arrangements for the Saturday to go and visit my parents.
	I then actually joked with her in a manner, by asking her how was it going with Michael and the Gestapo.  She then turned around to me and said that things weren't going well and she was not at all happy with Michael being in the Security Branch.  She hadn't been happy, from prior conversations that we had, she hadn't actually been happy with it for a long time.  And then proceeded to tell me - the conversation was a little more in depth, I can't remember everything word for word, that she had plenty of documentation that could actually sink the Security Branch and get them all into a lot of trouble.  My comments back to her then were;  didn't she think that that would be unfair on Michael as well and she said to me it was the only way she could think of to get him to leave the Security Branch.
	I said to her it wasn't a very wise thing for her to do.  I even mentioned the word "treason" to her that night, but she said that she was furious and she intended doing it.  Our conversation then went on.  We had a personal conversation.  She discussed with me about them having a new house and she seemed pretty excited about the fact that they were going to be moving to new home.  And that is the gist of the conversation that we had that evening.

MR HATTINGH: You say it was the gist of the conversation, did she indicate where she would take the documents to?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Well she said that she was either going to take it to the ANC or she was going to let it go to the media.

MR HATTINGH: Was any information given as to the exact contents of the information or documents?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: No, because on previous discussions she'd wanted to discuss things with me and I wasn't interested in knowing exactly what was going on.  I knew where Michael worked, I knew he worked for the Security Branch, I knew she at times had helped out on certain things, but it wasn't exactly my favourite subject, so I never ever encouraged either of them to tell me exactly what kind of operations or what they were involved in.

MR HATTINGH: What Janine told you with regard to the documents, did she give you any time-frame as to when she intended to take the action that she'd told you about?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes, from the conversation it sounded to me as though she intended doing it almost immediately and she had a very serious intention of letting those documents go, at least within the next couple of days.

MR HATTINGH: Was there anything more said about these documents between yourself and Janine?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Gosh, I can't remember the exact form of the conversation, all that she said to me was that she was going to let them either go to the ANC or to the newspapers.

MR HATTINGH: Did you have telephonic contact with Michael during the course of the following days?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes, Michael phoned me the next day and ...(intervention)

MR HATTINGH: Would that have been the Thursday?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: That would have been the Thursday, yes.
... to confirm our arrangements.  I then said to him, asked him if he had contacted Janine as Janine had been looking for him.  We confirmed our arrangements that I would fetch him on the Saturday morning.  And then purely out of interest's sake I asked him if he was leaving the Security Branch.  Mike said to me no, he had no intention of leaving the Security Branch, and why would I ask a question like that.  I then explained to him the conversation we have had with Janine and he actually didn't make any further comment to me about it, he just said to me that we'd stick to our arrangements and I was to meet him at 9 o'clock on the Saturday morning.

MR HATTINGH: What was the agreement as to when would you meet him on the Saturday morning?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: I was to meet him on the Saturday morning on the corner of - gosh, now I can't remember, it was opposite the OK Bazaars.  I've got a feeling it was Pieter Maritz Street and - I'm sorry I can't remember the exact streets now, but it was opposite the OK Bazaars, sort of the bottom end of Pieter Maritz Street.

MR HATTINGH: What was the arrangement with regard to time?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: The time would be 9 o'clock.

MR HATTINGH: Did you in fact meet Michael on that Saturday morning in Pietermaritzburg?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes, I did meet him that morning in Pietermaritzburg.

MR HATTINGH: Your recollection as to when he arrived?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: I got there before he got there, and it would have been between nine and nine fifteen.  It definitely would have been no later than nine thirty.

MR HATTINGH: And what happened thereafter? - just briefly.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: We kissed each other hello like normal.  We then - I presume we were chatting, went, we stopped.  We first stopped at a little shopping centre where I did some shopping.  Mike in actual fact didn't get out the car, I went in on my own.  We were going to my parents for a braai at the farm in Boston, so we needed to get a few things.  Did a little bit of shopping, then got back into the car and we drove back up to the house.

MR HATTINGH: Carry on, what happened at the house.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Okay.  When we arrived at the house ...(intervention)

MR HATTINGH: Just briefly.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes.  I actually don't remember now whether when we got there a phone call had already come through for my brother, or the phone call came through when we just arrived over there, but one of his, I think it was, I can't remember if it was Colonel Taylor or Colonel Oosthuizen phoned to tell him he was to come back to Johannesburg as soon as possible as there was an emergency.  I actually think it was a message we got, otherwise my brother would I'm sure have asked what the emergency was.  I think my husband actually took that phone call.
	Then Michael tried to phone the house.  He then went down to the bathroom and asked me to carry on trying to phone the house to see if Janine knew of any emergency or any problems or if anybody had contacted her.  I carried on trying.  At one stage I got through, there was a man that answered the phone.  I then walked down the passage towards the bathroom and said to Mike: "I don't know, there seems to be something strange, I can't get through, it's a strange sort of engaged signal on the telephone.  
	He then finished in the bathroom, came back upstairs again.  He then tried the phone and Lydia, the maid answered.  She then informed Mike that Janine had been murdered.  He then couldn't - that was when Mike broke down totally and asked me to take over the phone.  I took the phone over, I spoke to Lydia.  She wasn't, she couldn't speak any longer either, so the chap, I think he was helping Mike with building operations or something, I'm not too sure, Harris, then informed us that it was definite Janine had been murdered.  ...(intervention)

MR HATTINGH: Okay.  Now having received this news, what arrangements were made to leave Pietermaritzburg to come to Jo'burg?