Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1997-02-18

ADV POTGIETER: I can't understand - because that's - I mean we talking - we talking about a - almost a sort of a legal process there is a  - sorry [intervention]

ADV NTSEBEZA: May I just again remind the people who are attending these proceedings that the proceedings must be accorded a measure of decorum that defeats this sort of proceedings that there are.  I certainly would not wish that people should [indistinct] a witness even if the replies that the witness gives seemed to be of a nature that people may consider [indistinct] end of Tape 11, side A ...  [indistinct] as and when they like.
 So I will please again plead with us all to observe strict decorum - Potgieter.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson - Director Knipe we just want to round this off.   Are you suggesting that the Chairperson should be involved in your subpoena or in generally in issuing subpoena's or what - I am trying to understand.

MR KNIPE: No I am not suggesting that - I am just saying that the subpoena was issued when the Archbishop was out of the country.

ADV POTGIETER: And does that in your view impact at all on the issuing of this subpoena?

MR KNIPE: No the issuing of the subpoena is obviously still a legal document.

ADV POTGIETER: So do you - you agree that this ground doesn't really take this matter any further - whether the Archbishop is in the country or outside the country.

MR KNIPE: There is a perception - it's a perception.

ADV POTGIETER: Is it - I am sorry I am trying to understand that, is it a perception that this subpoena was sneaked out of the Commission whilst the Archbishop was gone and served on you.

MR KNIPE: Not at all.

ADV POTGIETER: What is - what is the perception?

MR KNIPE: My perception is that maybe if the Archbishop was here it may not have been done.

ADV POTGIETER: It may not have been done - you  may not have been subpoenaed at all?

MR KNIPE: Not in the manner in which I was no.

ADV POTGIETER: In any case I - I have gathered that you got nothing to hide, you don't - you don't have any difficulties.

MR KNIPE: Absolutely nothing - nothing at all.

ADV POTGIETER: And you happy to be here this afternoon.

MR KNIPE: Quite content - except for the lights.

ADV POTGIETER: For the lights - I think we share that.  Can I perhaps move from there - I think we've cleared the air around that and hopefully the media has also taken note of this discussion.
 Now insofar as the planning of this incident was concerned, what was your knowledge about this?

MR KNIPE: None whatsoever.

ADV POTGIETER: You didn't know anything about this operation at all.

MR KNIPE: None whatsoever.

ADV POTGIETER: As I've indicated you - you  have been part of the command structure of the Murder and Robbery Unit in this part of the country for some years before - well in the old days, in the days of the South African Police not so?

MR KNIPE: I was at Murder and Robbery from '79 to 1986 - I left shortly after this incident.  Went to Sea Point for 18 months, took charge of Murder and Robbery in Durban, returned to Cape Town and assumed command of the Unit in 1990.

ADV POTGIETER: Now during the period '79 to '86 - whilst you were at the Peninsula Murder and Robbery Unit, you'd been part of the command structure not so?

MR KNIPE: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: And you've been a well known face where ever Murder and Robbery was involved.

MR KNIPE: I hope I was a successful policeman.

ADV POTGIETER: Now as such - I mean as part of the command structure  of Murder and Robbery, were you senior to Captain Kleyn or what was the position?

MR KNIPE: We were identical in rank - equal in rank.

ADV POTGIETER: Equal in rank.  And was - who was in charge - who was in overall - in overall charge of the unit?

MR KNIPE: On the day that this occurred, the new commanding officer now General Visser, Commissioner Visser was to arrive I think from Potchefstroom - he was to assume command of the Unit.  And at the time when the incident occurred,  Visser had not yet stepped off the plane, Major Brits was in charge.

ADV POTGIETER: Major Brits - now indications are that around the 27th of February - a few days before the actual incident, there were already plans being formulated in regard to this - to this incident and Murder and Robbery was - was part of the planning even at that stage.  Are you suggesting that your colleagues in the command structure had sidelined you.

MR KNIPE: I am not suggesting anything I am telling the Commission that I had no prior knowledge.

ADV POTGIETER: But isn't that a bit unusual - you part of the command structure - your colleague who is on a equal - who is on par with you, Captain Kleyn, is involved on the scene and you also later involved on the scene, but are you suggesting that under those circumstances Kleyn was led in on this operation and you were not?

MR KNIPE: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: Was that [intervention]

MR KNIPE: I think - I think if I might just explain that.

ADV POTGIETER: Sure.

MR KNIPE: I had fallen foul during my career with the Security Police there was a dossier on me held by the Security Police.  The Security Police and I did not work in close relationship with each other, only subsequently those wounds were healed.

ADV POTGIETER: So was there a close relation between the Security Police and Murder and Robbery?

MR KNIPE: Not really no - no.  No - on occasions but I would not term it - term it close co-operation no - close co-operation would have been with Forensic - with Flying Squad, those were far  closer co-operations much closer co-operations with the Riot Unit - there is obviously inter co-operation between all sections within the Police Force but there was no special nexus between Security Cape Town and Murder and Robbery Cape Town.  The was a far closer nexus with other departments or other sections.

ADV POTGIETER: Because in this incident as I've indicated to you earlier, Murder and Robbery has been involved right from the word go in the planning but you've explained why you would possibly have been not included in - in the planning because of your own situation with the Security Branch at that stage.

ADV VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman I am sorry to interrupt, but I do not believe that the evidence certainly that I've heard, was of the nature that Murder and Robbery was involved in the planning right from the word go, that would proceed the Sunday night meeting - I do not think that the evidence that I've heard, was that they were involved prior to the Sunday night meeting.
 I haven't seen all the evidence, but that is as I have it.

ADV POTGIETER: Ja.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Advocate Potgieter.

ADV POTGIETER: Well that's the evidence - well I think advocate Van Zyl has answered himself, that's the evidence that he has had.   He says according tot he evidence that he has heard which is the position.  So he has answered himself - he has obviously not heard all the evidence.

ADV VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman I didn't want to delay the proceedings unnecessarily but if there was such evidence, then certainly there was such evidence then at least put it to  the witness and even to me for my reification.  Then we - we understand where we are and where we working from.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Advocate Potgieter.

ADV POTGIETER: Can I proceed Chairperson - I don't think that's an objection.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you - so just to - just to sum it up - between at least 27 February and the morning of the incident 3rd of March, you  haven't heard a word about this coming operation.

MR KNIPE: That is correct.

ADV POTGIETER: Perhaps let's take it a bit - just slightly further back, what was the situation in the Western Cape at that stage?  In terms of unrest - in terms of attacks on the police, in terms of those kinds of incidents?