Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

MR MOKOENA: Let me come to the beginning of your testimony, what would be your comment if someone comes here to testify and say that as at that date, 1992, there was no structure at Maroshane, ANC structure?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I would not disagree with him because I was not residing there all the time, I was working outside.

MR MOKOENA: If called upon to testify, Rinco Masimola will deny that he was ever a leader of the Youth League of that area.

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I would not agree with him because he was the person who was addressing the meeting as a leader there.

MR MOKOENA: How many ANC meetings did you attend?  Let's forget about these ones where you sought to identify witches.

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I have said this before, I was not residing at home because I was working elsewhere.

MR MOKOENA: Did you ever attend any ANC meeting besides the meetings in issue here?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Yes, there were others that I attended.

MR MOKOENA: Can you, may you maybe just give an estimate of such meetings?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: It could be three meetings.

ADV SANDI: Sorry that is not very clear to me, where was that, where did you attend those approximately three meetings, was it at Maroshane or at this place where you say you were working and where you say you resided also?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: At the place where I was working.

ADV SANDI: Where was this place?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I started working at Middelburg, (indistinct) mine and Pretoria and Johannesburg.

ADV SANDI: Should one understand that you mean that you never attended any meetings at Maroshane until this particular incident happened?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: May you please repeat the question?

ADV SANDI: Before the incident you are talking about here today, did you attend any meetings at Maroshane?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: No.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Mokoena.

MR MOKOENA: Shall I, will I be correct to say that even these consumer boycotts and strikes you talked about, you are referring to the places where you were residing and not at Maroshane?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: That is correct.

MR MOKOENA: Okay, so if somebody comes to testify to the effect that there was never a consumer boycott or strike at Maroshane, what would be your comment on that one?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I have explained before that I have agreed that I would agree with somebody when he says the ANC was not present at that time.

MR MOKOENA: Okay.  How would you associate this killing, the burning with a political motive?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I associate it with politics because the procedure that was followed was the normal procedure that was used by the Youth League because they were also toyi-toying.

MR MOKOENA: Are you suggesting that just toyi-toying, proceeding to a particular person, that becomes a political motive?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I do not understand the question, will you please repeat it?

MR MOKOENA: Are you saying that proceeding to a particular person, toyi-toying would justify that as a political motive?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: That is associated with politics because ANC leaders were present.

MR MOKOENA: Okay, as I said, I am going to call someone to come and testify that there was no such an ANC structure in that area.

CHAIRPERSON: That doesn't seem to be in dispute, the applicant has conceded that.

MR MOKOENA: Okay, thank you Chairperson.  Mr Tladi,  you cannot deny that this act was purely a criminal act, can you?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I do not understand you.

MR MOKOENA: Let me put it in a more simple way.  What would be your comment if I said to you this was just pure a criminal act, it had nothing to do with politics?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I would answer you by saying that it was not a criminal act because we were so many there, and we did that as comrades, all of us.

MR MOKOENA: Okay.  Mr Baphela is going to come and testify that this arose out of jealousy because of the standard of living of his family.

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I would agree with him there.

MR MOKOENA: Thank you honourable Chairperson, no more questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOKOENA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Mokoena.  Ms Mtanga, is there anything ...

MS MTANGA: I have no questions Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Does the Panel want to raise anything further?

MR SIBANYONI: Not from me Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Nothing from me, Mr Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any re-examination Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: I have two questions.  At that time did you have knowledge of any other incident in any other area where alleged witches were killed?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I do not understand the question, will you please repeat?

MR RICHARD: As at August 1992, had you heard or did you know of any other incident in any other place, where a crowd of people had gone out and killed somebody they thought to be a witch?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: How many such incidents did you know about?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Three of them.

MR RICHARD: Where did those incidents take place?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: In Skinot and also in Rampahlela.

MR RICHARD: Did you know people who had been part of those incidents?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I do not know their names.

MR RICHARD: How did you learn about them, through the newspaper, people talking?

CHAIRPERSON: Is this new evidence?

MR RICHARD: Sorry, I leave the question.  How many times did you hear Rinco speak at a meeting?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I only learnt about people being burnt at other places on radio, I have never heard Rinco saying that.

MR RICHARD: How many times did you hear Rinco speak at meetings, nevermind about what you heard on the radio?

CHAIRPERSON: Can't you remember?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I do not remember.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Were you aware of any incidents similar to this one that had occurred at Maroshane?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I do not remember.

ADV SANDI: Can I take it that you are unable to give any justification for the killing of this person?  Isn't that the position?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes, Mr Richard, is that the evidence for the applicant?

MR RICHARD: That is the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that his case as well?

MR RICHARD: That is his case.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Will any other party present any evidence in this matter?

MR MOKOENA: Yes honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you intend doing, Mr Mokoena?  Whose evidence do you intend to tender?

MR MOKOENA: Pieter Baphela.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the husband of the deceased?  Is this in regard to this question of the motive for the attack on the family?

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is as I understand his testimony, he has conceded that.  It looks as if, on what you have put to him there, there is nothing that is in dispute.  Under those circumstances, on the face of it, that testimony wouldn't really add very much to the incident.  If that is the only point that you wish to emphasise on, on the testimony of Mr Baphela.

MR MOKOENA: That was the only point.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I think that one is common cause, so I don't think you need to be concerned about that.

MR MOKOENA: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anybody else that you had in mind, or is it only Mr Baphela?  Because as I say it appears to me as if there is no dispute really.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I also had Rinco.

CHAIRPERSON: Rinco yes, but even there, there is no real dispute.  And besides, I mean the tribunal is not likely to make a finding that would directly impact on Mr Rinco's situation.

MR MOKOENA: Okay.  Then that will be all.

CHAIRPERSON: And I assume Ms Mtanga, you are not intending to present any evidence?

MS MTANGA: That is so Chairperson.