Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-23

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, at that stage after the incident I believed that that what I did was in the interest of the AWB and it would further the struggle to obtain a Volkstaat.

UNKNOWN: So at any other level - on a personal level, you didn't feel anything?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, for me it was difficult, the fact that innocent lives were taken, it was difficult for me but at that stage I was so desperate and I believed that that what I was doing would be to further my principles and my support of the movement.

UNKNOWN: As Mr Malan put it to you, the fact that the ANC in their campaign for freedom killed people, planted bombs etc, did you see that as justified, that it justified your actions?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, because I did in what I believe in.

UNKNOWN: Do you concede now that there were better targets to convey your message, in other words, to stop the elections as it was suggested by the other legal representatives?  For example the polling booths, police stations etc?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, there could have been other targets or bombed, but at that stage it was my instruction and I executed it in that manner.  I knew before the elections, before 1993 and 1994 there was acts of terror or sabotage and that other targets were hit and the task that I did was explained to me and it was conveyed to me that lives will be lost in order for the election to be stopped and that would help in the whole process.

UNKNOWN: In Exhibit F, that is the newspaper article, of 8 February 1994, that is when Mr Terreblanche spoke at Lichtenberg.  There was an explosion at a power station.  There was also talk about nineteen similar explosions in the Western Transvaal.  Do you carry any knowledge concerning this?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I did see the newspaper article.

UNKNOWN: How many of those nineteen explosions resulted in the loss of life?

J H VLOK: As far as I know, none.

UNKNOWN: They were against certain buildings etc., is that correct?

J H VLOK: Yes, it was to sabotage, Mr Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Concerning the families of the victims and those who died who listen to your application, the question is, is there anything that you would like to tell them about your feelings?  They've got the feeling that you sit there, you ask for amnesty, nothing was said about them, if you at all consider them or consider their feelings while you answer questions that are put to you?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I would like to convey my condolences to these people, that they were the targets of our goals that we wanted to reach and in which we believed in very strongly at that stage.

UNKNOWN: If I look at the charge sheet in the High Court, it seems to me as if most of the victims except two, who were white, the rest of them were all black people and the places where the bombs were planted or thrown, I'm talking about the pipe bombs, was places where usually a person would expect to find black people?

J H VLOK: I do not know, Mr Chairperson, I was not there.

UNKNOWN: But we know now and you must have heard in the last week or so that it was the case?

J H VLOK: Yes, I did hear about this.

UNKNOWN: At any stage did anybody talk about the target of violence would be the black group of people, are you saying that it is coincidence that your Germiston bomb was set off at a taxi rank?

J H VLOK: No, I was not part of the planning so I do not know.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

ADV BOSMAN: No questions.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Chair, I have one question.  This is in relation to a point raised by Mr Bracher.  If you look at page 98 of Volume 1, where you talk about the two Bothas.  Now are you saying that you were instructed to accompany the two Bothas to Koesterfontein?  I'm just now contextualising your evidence?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I received the instruction when they left Ventersdorp and went to the game farm.  Leon van der Merwe gave the instructions and said that if someone arrives late, I must take them to Koesterfontein where they will be picked up and taken to the game farm.

ADV GCABASHE: Now you see, that's exactly what I want to know, you hadn't told us about the picking up before, so let me get this right.  You were told to take late arrivals like the Bothas to Koesterfontein.

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Now who picked them up at Koesterfontein?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, I do not know because I was in the building and they were outside.

ADV GCABASHE: Two questions - did they see the other members of the party that was at Koesterfontein?  Maybe that one first.

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, because Nicolas Barnard came out and Abraham Myburgh also saw and so they must have seen them yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Did they see the bomb that was being made?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, because it was inside the building, it was a closed building.

ADV GCABASHE: Was there any discussion at this point when the Bothas were there about the whole bombing spree, what was going to be happening?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Was there any discussion at all about the bomb that had gone off that morning at Bree Street - if I don't have my facts wrong?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, there was no such discussion.

ADV GCABASHE: Now give me a time, roughly at what time were you at Koesterfontein with the Bothas?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson it was after dark, I do not know exactly the time, let's say approximately eight o'clock.

ADV GCABASHE: Because you say later in the day, so you think roughly about eight o'clock that evening?

J H VLOK: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Now eight o'clock that evening, where exactly was this motor bomb being built, you know line three, Koekemoer was busy building this bomb.  Where exactly was this?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, it was inside the old house, it was inside the house.  There was a big room and the bomb was on a table and they were busy putting the explosives around this bottle.

ADV GCABASHE: And having done that you then went to bed?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, after the bomb went off I went to bed.

ADV GCABASHE: You testified at some point that the following morning you went back to head office, yes?

J H VLOK: Yes Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: When exactly was that?

J H VLOK: No, I cannot say but it was in the span of the morning, if I must guess it was approximately eleven o'clock.

ADV GCABASHE: Are you saying this was after you had returned from Germiston?

J H VLOK: Yes Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: You see my impression had been earlier, much earlier that you had gone back to the office fairly early in the morning - that impression was wrong?

J H VLOK: Yes Mr Chairperson, it was after the bombing.

ADV GCABASHE: When you got back to the office who did you find there?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember exactly but it was the members who worked at head office in other words the women, the women who worked there.

ADV GCABASHE: Now this is a Monday morning, the Generals hadn't turned up yet, they weren't there?

J H VLOK: No, not as far as I know.

ADV GCABASHE: So you were the most senior person in the office on Monday morning at eleven o'clock?

J H VLOK: I cannot remember.

ADV GCABASHE: Now who else would have been senior to you in the office on Monday morning?

J H VLOK: No, I do not know, I was probably the senior there.

ADV GCABASHE: Now did you discuss Germiston, what had happened at Germiston with anybody in the office?

J H VLOK: No Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Why not, weren't you feeling good about what had happened?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, it was a policy that any member or any operational area will talk to the public and it was in public.  It was away from the base so in other words I could not discuss it.

ADV GCABASHE: But as I understand it, all the people in that office at that particular time were committed AWB members?

J H VLOK: Yes Mr Chairperson.