Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-02

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I forget his surname, but I will remember it.  It is Weldon.

MR LAX: Weldon?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes.

MR LAX: One last thing before we move on Mr Wills, the coloured man whose firearm you took, did you know him?  Was he from your area?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I did not know him, and he did not come from our area.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR WILLS: Right, you say in relation to the Batong incident, that in a battle between the IFP and the ANC near Nkalu river, there were three casualties from the IFP and some injured from the ANC.
	From the latter part of your statement, you know that three people were killed in this battle, is that right?  Three IFP people were killed in the battle, is that right?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us in detail what occurred in this incident?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: During this war between the ANC and the IFP, Pat Mbakazi together with someone called Xude, I am not sure whether this was his real name or a nickname, they came to me.  We usually worked together, assisting each other in the protection of communities around Ixopo when such people were attacked by the IFP.
	Pat arrived at Plainhill and he enquired how things were going.  This took place before - the incident at Batong took place before the one at Mazabkweni.  Pat enquired just where these people stayed or where they stood or where they attacked from.
	I showed them where they stayed and I also told him that sometimes they would come and get into the forest or come up from the river's side to attack us.
	He then requested that these people should be attacked, so that they should stop attacking us and he suggested that he will come with his colleagues and we should also assist him when he goes to that area.
	I then consulted with Mnini, whom I saw first.  I told him that Pat was requesting that a group of people should accompany him to attack that area.
	Mnini was opposed to that idea.  I then did not consult anybody else, because we were actually not together all the time.  We did not meet all the time, so I did not see the others.

MR WILLS: This person you consulted with Mnini, was this Mnini Dlamini from Top?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes.

MR WILLS: Okay, carry on.

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Pat left and said he would return with his group, and I told him that Mnini and them would not involve themselves to assist in that fight.
	They just wanted the fight to be only in our area, that is defending ourselves if we were attacked.  The following day Pat returned, he was in his Golf, I was not around at that time.  I had left with Gacha Denza.  We were just walking around the area.
	It was in the late afternoon, I saw the Golf and although I did not tell Gacha where these people were going, I knew where they were proceeding to.

MR WILLS: Where were they, what direction were they travelling?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: They were on a route towards the Roman Catholic mission, which is actually across the Batong area.  There are roads and forests, SAPPI forests around that area.

MR WILLS: Where did you think they were going to?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I assumed that they were actually going to that area, because Pat normally did not travel towards that area.

MR WILLS: Which area did you think they were going to and what did you think they were going to do?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I thought they were going to Batong, just as he had told me what he planned on doing, that is attacking these people.

MR WILLS: Was he travelling in the same direction as the places that you had pointed out?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes.

MR WILLS: Carry on.

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Later on we went to enquire what was happening, because we heard gunshots and we saw the Golf approaching.  We did not head in that direction, and they passed by.
	I am not sure whether I saw him at Ixopo or near my home, but he then said that there were three people who had been killed and he also said that they had been fighting with these people.
	I did see somebody who was actually bleeding from the arm.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wills, in this matter, Mr Dlamini, you have told us that it was Pat who asked where the people who used to attack your area, came from and you had pointed out that area.  Pat then asked you and your people from your area for assistance, that was declined.
	You didn't go on the attack at all, why do you apply for amnesty in respect of that incident?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I had pointed the area to Pat, that is showing him where the attackers came from, and that is how they came about to be attacked.

MR LAX: So you are saying you were instrumental in the attack taking place and therefore you are applying for amnesty?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes.

MR LAX: Can you help us again, just with the time frame when this happened?  You said this happened before the last incident you described.
	We have established that that first incident was early 1993.  So this was before early 1993, either during early 1993 but before the last incident?  Was it summer, was it winter, was it 1993?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give us any idea as to how many days or weeks before the previous incident you described, it took place?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I think that maybe it was about three weeks or a month after the first incident.  I am not very sure of the year.

MR LAX: Sorry, it was interpreted as after, three weeks or a month after, but you told us this was before the previous incident?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes, I think it was a mistake, an interpretation mistake, it happened before.

MR LAX: Thank you for that.

MR WILLS: You say that you actually went to investigate this issue and you actually saw some dead bodies?  Three dead bodies, is that correct?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct, I saw these three dead bodies.

MR LAX: Hang on a second, his earlier evidence was that Pat told him that there were three people that were killed, and he only saw one guy that had been injured?  He didn't say that he himself went there.
	I know he says it in his statement.

MR WILLS: Let me clear that up.  How did you find out about this incident?  How did you find out that people had been killed?
	You might have found, can you just explain the circumstances surrounding that?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Pat told me about that.

MR WILLS: Yes, and then did anything else happen?  Did you go and investigate the matter or not?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I went after he had told me and I actually saw the dead bodies.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, so you actually went and saw the dead bodies at Batong?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes, it was actually along the river that demarcated Batong area and Plain area.

MR LAX: And you say you don't know who those people were?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: No.  I was seeing them for the first time.

MR WILLS: The last incident you applied for amnesty for, is the incident where you say you were involved where you shot a person, is that right, in Ixopo?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes.

MR WILLS: You say one person was killed in this incident, is that right?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes.

MR WILLS: Do you know the name of this person?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I only discovered this year what his surname was, it was Sithole.  But I do not know what his name was.

MR WILLS: Can you explain to us exactly what happened in this incident?