Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-06

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, my name is Sandile Ngcobo, I'm a Judge of the High Court in Cape Town, I'd be the Chairperson of this inquiry.  On my left we have Mr Lax who is a member of the Committee and on my immediate right we have Advocate Sigodi, on my far right we have Mr Sibanyoni who are all members of the Committee which will deal with this matter.
	For the record, would counsel appearing for the applicants just place themselves on record?

MS PRETORIUS: I am Cynthia Pretorius, I'm representing only one and that is Victor Mthembu.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Pretorius.

MS PRETORIUS: It's for the applicant, I'm sorry, I used the wrong word, it's for the applicant - Victor Mthembu.

MR STRYDOM: My name is R Strydom, I appear on the instruction of the firm J.H. van der Merwe for the other applicants except Thomas Lukhozi who ended our mandate.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Strydom.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, I appear as evidence leader for the Committee, R.B. Brink.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Mr Chair, I'm Crystal Cambanis of Nichols Cambanis Attorneys, I appear on behalf of twenty family members or injured persons.  I don't know if you want me to go through the twenty names or whether I may hand a copy of the twenty names possibly to Mr Brink?

CHAIRPERSON: I think it will be sufficient if you would just prepare a list of those victims and just perhaps hand it up to all the legal representatives and the Committee.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Mr Chair.

MR BERGER: Mr Chairman, my name is D. Berger, I represent twenty victims as well.  I have a list of the names of the victims, I will also make that list available to the Committee and to Mr Brink.

CHAIRPERSON: I think at the outset let me apologise for having started late.  These proceedings were supposed to commence at 10 o'clock but unfortunately, because of certain logistical problems, we could not commence in time.  Added to that is the problem of the victims who have very recently secured legal representation.  The legal representatives of the victims or some of the victims, I should add, have not had the opportunity of consulting with their clients so as to properly represent them.  That being the case, the Committee has decided to allow the legal representatives of the victims to consult with the victims and thereafter, advise the Committee of the progress that they have made, preferable before 11.30 which is the time by which we hope to resume again if there are no further problems.  I want to say that if there are victims in this hall who do not have legal representation, is they would be kind enough to get in touch with Mr Berger or Mr Brink, the evidence leader and indicate to him whether or not they require legal representation so that we can look into the matter and see how we can address the problems.  We intend rising and coming back at quarter to twelve, which is approximately an hour.  Is there anything you want to raise Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: No thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well, the Committee will rise, we'll come back at quarter to twelve.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Once again ladies and gentlemen, let me welcome all of you to this Amnesty Hearing which relates to what has become known as the Boipatong Massacre.  Finally we are able to proceed after we've had some technical delays.  Ms Pretorius, I gather that you will be starting with the sixteenth applicant, is that right?

MS PRETORIUS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: What language would you like to speak?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Zulu.

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Mthembu, you are an applicant in this matter, you are applicant number sixteen.  You've completed an application form on the 9th May 1997, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MS PRETORIUS: And it was sworn to be the truth by you on that date, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MS PRETORIUS: Then you made a statement on the 14th day of November 1996 wherein you made a statement firstly in connection with the Sebokeng attack that happened after the Boipatong attack and then you also made a statement in connection with the Boipatong attack, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MS PRETORIUS: You have perused that statement again this morning?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MS PRETORIUS: And it is correct as stated on the 14th November 1996?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is the truth.

MS PRETORIUS: Then we were request...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Advocate Pretorius?

MS PRETORIUS: I'm sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: For the record would you indicate as you lead the witness where the documents occurs on the records?  Thank you.

MS PRETORIUS: I am sorry, sir.  The first statement that your application is on page 1, 1 and up to page 3 - that is the application you made on the 9th May 1997.  Then you made an affidavit on the 14th November 1996 but that is in relation to the Sebokeng matter where you incidentally also made a statement after the Boipatong matter, that is page 4 up to page 17.  The first part up to page 8, that is paginated page 8 was in connection with the Sebokeng attack which is not for this Committee today, it will be brought before the Committee on a later date.  But from page 8 up to page 17 you made a statement regarding the Boipatong Massacre, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MS PRETORIUS: Then page 18 and up to page 21 was a request for further particulars from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission which was answered as requested on page 22 up to page 35 and it was signed by you after all the questions that was asked by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was answered, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MS PRETORIUS: Then you made a statement of how Boipatong was attacked.  That was also by request of the Amnesty Committee who wanted a further statement, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MS PRETORIUS: This statement is on page 36 of the paginated papers, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MS PRETORIUS: All these statements you made and the affidavits you signed, the last one goes up to page 42, you still declare under oath that everything you said in these statements were the truth and nothing but the truth, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MS PRETORIUS: There is one fact that you would like to change, that is on the paginated page 22, the first paragraph that reads "I first moved to Kwamadala Hostel during November 1991".  Which is the correct date Mr Mthembu?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: The correct date is one which I do not remember but it was 1990.

MS PRETORIUS: So that was a typing error that you drew my attention to this morning, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that's correct.

MS PRETORIUS: Then on paginated page 11 and page 12, you make mention that you, in paragraph 21 and paragraph 22, that the policeman that was present at the stadium with Themba Khosa after the Boipatong Massacre was General Johan van der Merwe.  Do you still say it was him?  Do you know whether it was him?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Although I do not remember correctly but it was somebody high up in the police hierarchy, but it may not have been Van der Merwe.

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Mthembu, the last paragraph of your submission to this Committee, I would like to read out and just ask you whether that is how you still feel today, if it's written by you on your own, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.