Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-14

CHAIRPERSON: That cannot be true.  I'll tell you what my brother is asking you, is that after conviction and before sentence, these were the other elements which the Judge had to take into consideration in passing sentence, these were never under discussion, hence he's saying look these are not in dispute, there's no discussion about it.
Please and I think after correcting you, you can answer my brother.  Mitigating factors before sentence was passed and when the Judge made these comments which my brother was just reading to you, this is what he was told to take into consideration, that you have worked in the mines for seven years and you were retrenched, that you have a wife who is in Lesotho and it's not in dispute that you are a Lesotho citizen because let me remind you, you were represented by an advocate, Mr Meyer, he put these facts to the Judge and obviously coming as a Pro Deo counsellor, he wouldn't know all that, he must have got it somewhere and my suspicion is that he got it from you, but you can correct us and put my suspicions in perspective.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: My advocate came to me and he asked me, this was the beginning of the discussions and he never forwarded what the situation was.  I told him that this is where you can find me.  Yes, this is where you can find me.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, when you were found guilty, do you recall that there were two stages in the trial?  Firstly there was the evidence of what happened on the farm, you recall that, that there was evidence of what happened at the farmer and then the Judge said to you and that you would find on page 35 that you were found guilty on count 1, not guilty on count 6 and guilty on the count of murder.  It ended.  Then he wanted to sentence you and then he said:  "What do you have to say in mitigation?"  Then he says
"The accused's personal circumstances (meaning you) are the following and this is not in dispute", that you are 30 years of age, you had no previous convictions, you obtained standard 6 and thereafter you worked for seven years in the mines and you were retrenched and it was also not in dispute that you were a Lesotho citizen and that you grew up in Lesotho and you have a wife in Lesotho.  Do you follow the personal circumstances which were put to the Judge?  Now this advocate did you know him before, the advocate who defended you?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So he knew you from no bar of soap, how could he come with these details because you told us for instance you obtained standard 6 at school, so it's correct as far as that is concerned.  Wouldn't we be right?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And born in 1963, when you were sentenced in 1993, you were 30 years, its correct?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now where would the Judge have got those personal circumstances about yourself, when you say no there was discussion about your citizenship, if the advocate did not get that from you or the Judge did not get it from you?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: It is true, we did all this.  Now what happened was the discussions were as they took place but all the facts that we discussed and all the facts that were discussed are not indicated here, they were not all placed in here.

CHAIRPERSON: You have a wife, don't you?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The Judge nor the advocate did not know you, you told them that you had a wife, is that not so?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: It's myself.

CHAIRPERSON: You told the Court or the advocate that you were retrenched from work, they did not know that, isn't it so?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You told them about your scholastic career, that you ended up in standard 6, that was not know to either the Judge or the advocate, was it not so?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: That you grew up in Lesotho and came to work in the mines, they did not know that, you are the only one who knew that and you must have told them that, isn't that so?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The only dispute you say which they made wrong, was that you are a Lesotho citizen and that your wife was in Lesotho, so they made a mistake in respect of that?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is correct, because they were here.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Pudumo.  Ms Mtanga, I hope I haven't taken the thunder out of your cross-examination?

MS MTANGA: Not at all Chairperson, thank you.

MS MTANGA: Mr Pudumo, if I can just make a follow-up to what the Chairperson was asking you, would you say the Judge in his Judgement lied when he said your citizenship was not in dispute, if you say there were discussions about whether you were a South African citizen or a Lesotho citizen and this was disputed by yourself and then if he went on in his Judgement and stated that your citizenship was not disputed, are you saying he lied?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I have explained in detail that I was born in Lesotho.  My arrest occurred when I was residing here in South Africa.

MS MTANGA: You're not answering my question.  I'm asking you, are you saying the Judge lied?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Can you put your question again?

MS MTANGA: My question is that the Judge in his Judgment stated that your citizenship, as it was put before the Court by your counsel, was never disputed by any of the parties including yourself and now you are saying that there were discussion disputing that you were actually a Lesotho citizen, what I'm asking you now, are you saying the Judge lied in his Judgement when he said the fact that you were a Lesotho citizen was not disputed?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: He knows that.  He's telling the truth.

MS MTANGA: In your application you were asked to give us your identity number or passport number, why didn't you fill in that part of your application?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I had not yet received it.

MS MTANGA: When did you apply for your I.D.?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Since 1987.

ADV SANDI: When did you get your I.D. book?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I did not get an I.D., I only got a duplicate.

MS MTANGA: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MS MTANGA: Did you subsequently get your identity document?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I haven't received it.

MS MTANGA: Did you make any inquiries why you have not received your identity document, because all prisoners will have identity documents?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Yes, ever since I landed in prison, I have made inquiries.

MS MTANGA: Were you able to vote in 1994?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: We were not allowed to vote as prisoners, but what happened was that I received another duplicate.

MS MTANGA: Mr Pudumo, that's not true, prisoners did vote in 1994.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: What I'm telling you is true, we did not vote in 1994, we were told that prisoners who committed murder cannot vote.

MS MTANGA: I want to put it to you that prisoners who were South African citizens, who weren't in exile and were not in possession of South African documents, did receive these documents even if they were in prison.  What do you say to this?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I can't have any knowledge to that effect, but I did not receive the I.D.

MS MTANGA: Who filled in this application for you?  Your amnesty application, who filled it for you?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: We filled it in when we arrived at Grootvlei.

MS MTANGA: But who filled it in for you?  I need the name of the person who filled it in for you.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: It's myself.

MS MTANGA: Is this the truth, Mr Pudumo?  Are you telling us the truth?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I filled the application myself.

MS MTANGA: Mr Pudumo, I wish to put it to you that applicants from Grootvlei prison had the same person filling in their applications for them, the same handwriting that's here.  What do you say to this?