Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman, I submit that this line of questioning will not take the matter further and that it is the same as the questioning yesterday of applicant Dirk Coetzee about the Lindley shooting and the diamond dealer.  It is a question of legal argument, whether concealing and hiding the identity of Vlakplaas and the members of the
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R MPSHE	217	A NOFOMELA
Police Force, the Security Police Force and their actions at Vlakplaas is done with a political motive or not.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: That may be so, but what concerns me though, and I was about to point that out to you, is whether you should not reconsider the amendment that you introduced this morning.  You deleted "murder" and I don't know whether you shouldn't reconsider that, possibly to add "abduction and murder" because the paragraph (d) that Mr Mpshe is dealing with I think he is wanting to show eventually that when he abducted this person he foresaw the possibility that he was going to be killed eventually.

MR MARAIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I actually made a note of it for re-examination after the questions by the Chairman to make an application to amend again and bring back the murder or accessory to murder.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, can I proceed with my line of questioning based on the objection by my learned.  A ruling has not been made on that.  But I was going to respond to what he has said.

CHAIRPERSON: You  want to know whether the killing was in any way related to a political objective.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is so, and then objection was raised by Mr Marais.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may put that question to him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Earlier on you stated in response to one of my questions that you were doing what you were told by your superiors.  That may well be so, but I am referring to what you have submitted to the Committee under paragraph (d) which I will read for completeness sake.  You state
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"To obtain information on a suspected ANC member, thereafter to eliminate the detainee in order to keep the identity of the members of Vlakplaas and the location of the farm a secret".
It is not a question of having been told to do that.  You submitted this to us.  That is why I want a response from you.

MR NOFOMELA: What I wrote there is - I still think was the way in which things were done.  That is the way things were done politically as well.

JUDGE WILSON: Wouldn't it be fairer to read paragraph (e) with paragraph (d) Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have seen paragraph (e).  The last question closes my questions.  No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nofomela, it was quite clear to you, from all the experience in the past at Vlakplaas, that whenever anybody was abducted for interrogation he was almost inevitably eliminated after the interrogation for the same reason that you give in order so that your identity may not be disclosed or the secrets of Vlakplaas may not become known, is that not so?

MR NOFOMELA: Yes, Sir, particularly with this incident.

UNKNOWN: In subparagraph (iv) on page 12, you say
"He was interrogated and severely assaulted by the three of us ..."
that's referring to yourself, Johannes and Moses, you mentioning your names in the preceding sentence -
" .. and De Kock".
Why didn't you mention the other persons too?
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MR NOFOMELA: /...
ADV DE JAGER	219	A NOFOMELA

MR NOFOMELA: Because I still cannot remember their names.

UNKNOWN: Why didn't you say and other persons whose names I cannot remember?

MR NOFOMELA: Sir, I believe that I said that in my evidence that others whose names I cannot remember.  I did mention that there were other whites there as well.

UNKNOWN: You mentioned it today, but why did you mention it in your application?

MR NOFOMELA: It was one of the things I discussed with my legal representative this morning, that I was supposed to have mentioned that I did not.  I trust that he had briefed you people on that.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MARAIS

MR MARAIS: No re-examination, Mr Chairman, I would apply to reintroduce the offence of murder in the offences that amnesty is sought for, so it will be murder and kidnapping.

CHAIRPERSON: That amendment will be made.

MR MARAIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Chairman, the next incident that the witness will give evidence about is No 16 on page 26.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, before my colleague proceeds to the next incident pertaining to the Maponya one, the brother to Japie Maponya is here in person and I've consulted with him this morning and he has indicated to me that he wants to say something.  He is going to make a request to this Committee that he be allowed before we move to the next matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you just stand down for a while, please.  You may call Mr Maponya.

UNKNOWN: s s

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Maponya, it is correct that
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Japie Maponya was your younger brother.

UNKNOWN: Yes, it is true.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you have another brother by the name of Odirile Maponya?

UNKNOWN: Yes, it is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you for the purpose of record spell his name as well.

UNKNOWN: O-d-i-r-i-l-e.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Where is he today?

UNKNOWN: He has since died.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When did this take place?

UNKNOWN: Round about 1995.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know what caused his death?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I do.  I read in the newspapers about his death.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What in the newspapers?

UNKNOWN: What I read was that the bomb blast caused his death.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: This morning when we spoke you indicated to me that you want to say something to this Committee.

UNKNOWN: Yes, it is true.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You now have that opportunity to say that to the Committee.

UNKNOWN: I thank you honourable people of this Committee.  What I want to say being Maponya, the elder brother to Japie, as a family there is one concern we have.  We have this reconciliation and forgiveness matter because we are Christians.  What does not satisfy us is that we are going to forgive this man who did this brutal thing about my brother.  My mother even had a heart attack, she has since died because of that.  We must forgive them now. But they
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But then don't want to point out where they disposed of him.  We don't know that place, they are the only people who know.  Our request is this, so long as the TRC is still in process they must ask these people to give us the remains of Japie Maponya so that we can prepare a proper funeral for him.  It is then that we can forgive them like God would forgive us.  That is what I have to say.  I thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: How old was your brother?

UNKNOWN: I am not exactly sure.

CHAIRPERSON: How much younger than you was he?

UNKNOWN: About four years.

CHAIRPERSON: How old are you?

UNKNOWN: I am 41 years old.

CHAIRPERSON: And Odirile, how old was he?

UNKNOWN: He was older than me, approximately five years older or six years older than myself.

CHAIRPERSON: And where was it that he died in a bomb blast?

UNKNOWN: The newspaper report says it was in Pretoria.

CHAIRPERSON: Did your family identify his body?

UNKNOWN: No, just in the same case as Japie.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there a subsequent case in which those who caused the bomb blast were charged?

UNKNOWN: It never occurred, but they threatened us, we were even gaoled.  (Indistinct) asked about my brother's - being asked who killed them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Marais, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

MR MARAIS: I have no questions.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Are you saying that you yourself on some occasions was detained by the police?
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UNKNOWN: /...
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