Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: fricans, who had beensubjected to the treatment that they had and parents and mothers, brothers,asked, telling where is my son, where is my father, and we know now that someof them were buried in a farm somewhere in the Free State, some were thrownin rivers in the Eastern

<UNKNOWN>: ape, because I know the value of going back to theplace where it happened, I appeal to the agents of the government, whoever theymight be, to come forward and to identify what they had done, where they didit, at least give them also the opportunity to grieve where it happened.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Would you like a moment Mr

<UNKNOWN>: ckerman?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: Yes,please.

<UNKNOWN>: ould my wife please pass me my jacket? I remarried two years ago. Thankyou

<UNKNOWN>: dvocate.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: ckerman, can you tell me, or tell the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee do you think that in the political climate and having regard to thepolitical developments that were going on at the time of the attack, that itin fact achieved anything or it was an appropriate attack in the circumstances,or justifiable in the circumstances?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge, it isdifficult for me to answer that because I am so subjectively close to the happening.In retrospect I can see now that the apartheid government was an evil government,that in some respects that the opposition to it was legitimate. I must tellyou that in my own personal opinion, I think that the gravity of the attackand the fact that it was a defenceless church, people at worship, that I cannotunder any circumstances condone that in terms of an armed struggle and I muststand with that answer.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Is there anything else you wouldlike to say to the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee at this stage Mr

<UNKNOWN>: ckerman?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: Yes.May I address the applicants? May I ask the applicants to turn around and toface me? This is the first opportunity we've had to look each other in the eyeand talk. I want to ask Mr Makoma who actually entered the church - my wifewas sitting right at the door when we came in, where you came in, she was wearinga long, blue coat, can you remember if you shot her?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: I do rememberthat I fired some shots, but I couldn't identify, I don't know whom did I shootor not, but my gun pointed at the people.

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: It is importantfor me to know if it is possible, as much as it is important for your peoplewho suffered, to know who killed. I don't know why it is so important for me,but it just is. If you don't remember, I will accept that. I have heard youthrough your

<UNKNOWN>: ttorney say and into the microphone, apologise and I have alsoheard your leadership extend an invitation to my church leadership which isstill required, I think, to be considered, that they want to come to our churchto offer condolences and they said that they would bring you along, whetheror not you receive amnesty in a show of reconciliation. I would like to hearfrom each one of you as you look me in the face, that you are sorry for whatyou have done, that you regret it and that you want to be personally reconciled.You can speak in your own language directly to me, you don't have to worry aboutthe microphone.

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: We are sorry for what we have done. It wasthe situation in South

<UNKNOWN>: frica.

<UNKNOWN>: lthough people died during that struggle, wedidn't do that out of our own will. It is the situation that we were livingunder. We are asking from you, please do forgive us.

<UNKNOWN>: ll that we did, we cansee the results today.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I am also asking for an apology.

<UNKNOWN>: swe were working under orders, we didn't know that this will come to such a place.We wanted to be where we are today. We were working under the orders.

<UNKNOWN>: s theTR

<UNKNOWN>: is alive today, we hope that this will come to an end. I hope that you doforgive me, because I ask for forgiveness. Thank you.

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Ialso want to say I do apologise to those people who were in the church at thattime, while there was that shooting. We also thought that we would meet withthe church members, those who were there. Even if we can also go to the churchto show that we want reconciliation with them under the circumstances that wewere, I also say please forgive me to everybody who is White and

<UNKNOWN>: lack, whoare in this new South

<UNKNOWN>: frica. Thank you.

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: I want you to knowthat I forgive you unconditionally. I do that because I am a

<UNKNOWN>: hristian and Ican forgive you for the hurt that you have caused me, but I cannot forgive youthe sin that you have done. Only God can forgive you for that and I plead withyou, when God saved me, he gave me something that I can't explain and that islove.

<UNKNOWN>: love for people, all people to have what I have. I can't explain it,He just gave it to me. When I look at you and I think of your

<UNKNOWN>: ommander I thinkit was Vusi, that has died in an accident, I can only think that he had diedwithout

<UNKNOWN>: hrist, you still have a chance and I appeal to you, to return to thefaith of your parents. I understand that you were all brought up in

<UNKNOWN>: hristianhomes. I appeal to you to go back to your parents, to ask them for forgivenesstoo and that you would consider the

<UNKNOWN>: hristian gospel,

<UNKNOWN>: hrist as the mediator,the person that can forgive you from eternal sin. You are going to have to considerthat and I appeal to you to do it. Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge, thank you.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman. We have nothing further, Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rendse, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

<UNKNOWN>: ROSS-

NORMAN ARENDSE: Just one Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman. Mr

<UNKNOWN>: ckerman, can I just say from ourside that during your moving testimony, that I think we were only beginningto appreciate what you have gone through and only in these brief moments, havewe been able to share that with you. I just want to ask you one question, doyou not think that reconciliation in respect of these applicants would be betterserved, by them being granted amnesty instead of them staying behind bars andserving out their prison sentences?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rendse I am too subjectivelyclose to be able to make a valued judgement like that. It is my position thatthe sword has been given to the State, that it is their responsibility to decide.It has been my objective to get the truth, to get to the truth. If in this process,we have established that and I must leave that to the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee to evaluateand to decide on, if they feel and it is for them to decide that, if they feelthat the requirements that the law has laid down for these gentlemen to getamnesty, then they must give them amnesty. If they feel that they have not metthe requirements, then they must decide and decide to refuse them amnesty. Iand my family will abide by your decision, lady and gentlemen and I know too,that that is the official position of my church, that the church will abideby whatever decision is taken here today or will be taken as a result of today.

ADVARENDSE: From what you've heard here today, are you personally satisfiedthat you've heard all the relevant facts that relate to what happened that day?

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rendse, that is not my call. I can't, I am too subjective,I can tell you what my subjective answer is and my subjective answer is no,I don't think that I've heard everything. I think there might yet be somethingmore, but is that because I want them to tell more, or is that because thereis more? I am too subjective Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rendse. That is why we have a

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee. Thatis why we have people like you and Mr