Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-22

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman, may we proceed with the matter of Sibisi and Cele?  That is the matter that stood down or stood over from Monday, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: May I be excused at this stage, Members of the Committee?
MR WILLS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

ADV PRIOR: We're going to hear it, Mr Chairman.  Bongani Cele and Dumisani Sibisi, AM 3383/96 and AM 6351/97 was adjourned from Monday until today.
	Mr Chairman, may I place on record the following:  Both the applicants were released from prison on parole.  Present today is Mr Dumisani Sibisi who has via his attorney, Mr Samuel indicated that they wish to proceed with the application.  
	Mr Bongani Cele is not present.  My information that from his parole office, Mr Cele has failed to report on the various occasions that he was supposed to, as a result of which he and members of the witness protection and police went out into the Umzinto area where he resides to try and find him.  He wasn't able to be found. 
	However this morning I learnt from his co-applicant, Mr Sibisi, that he had been requested by the parole officer and also our witness protection, Mr Sadar Govender to possibly see if he could contact Mr Cele, which he did.  Mr Sibisi confirmed this morning to me that he had spoken to Mr Cele the day before yesterday, had explained to him why the matter was adjourned to today and Mr Cele indicated to him that he was not interested in proceeding with his application.  I think Mr Samuel will or I will be able to lead that evidence or ask those questions or possibly the Committee may even confirm that from Mr Sibisi once he is placed under oath.
	So in the circumstances, Mr Chairman, I would submit that it would be equitable that Mr Sibisi be heard insofar as his amnesty application is concerned.  All the victims are present, and there are five.  I have consulted with all of them and they have all indicated to me that they do not oppose the application.  
	And all have indicated quite magnanimously, Mr Chairman, that they have unconditionally forgiven Mr Sibisi.  The only person that wishes to speak to Mr Sibisi at the end of these proceedings is Mrs Mabel Mahiba or Madiba.  And that will be arranged with Mr Sibisi and his attorney.

CHAIRPERSON: So she wants to speak privately, not to the whole gathering?

ADV PRIOR: Privately to Mr Sibisi, and they've also indicated that they do not wish to testify but have requested me to place their circumstances before the Committee at the appropriate time.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: I confirm my appearance on behalf of the applicant, Mr Dumisani Sibisi, Mr Chairman.  We confirm that it is Mr Sibisi's intention to proceed with this application for amnesty.  May I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.

ADV POTGIETER: Mr Sibisi, are your full names Dumisani
Tokizani Sibisi?

DUMISANI TOKIZANI SIBISI: That is correct.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you.

DUMISANI TOKIZANI SIBISI: (sworn states)

ADV POTGIETER: Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: Mr Sibisi, do you confirm that you made an application for amnesty on the 10th of April 1998?

DUMISANI TOKIZANI SIBISI: Would you please repeat the question?

MR SAMUEL: Do you confirm that you made an application for amnesty on the 10th of April 1998?

ADV POTGIETER: 1996.

MR SAMUEL: 1996, my apologies.

DUMISANI TOKIZANI SIBISI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SAMUEL: Do you confirm the statement that you've made in regard to that application?

DUMISANI TOKIZANI SIBISI: Yes.

MR SAMUEL: I see.  Would you like to tell the Commission what transpired on the day in question, when the incident took place where Madiba - there were two counts of murder and four counts of attempted murder ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Before we go on, he made two applications didn't he?  I have an application ....[inaudible] November 1996 and the other application is as you said the 10th of April 1996.  That is at page 5.  You have the Zulu one and the translation as at page 15.

MR SAMUEL: Yes, I see ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Oh sorry, no, wait a bit, I'm making mistakes now am I.  No, that's Sibisi yes.  ...[inaudible]

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, the copy at page 15 is headed
"Translation"

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, ...[inaudible].

ADV PRIOR: Yes, yes, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: One application is at page 2, the application in Zulu is at page 5 and the translation is at page 15.  Can he confirm both of them?

MR SAMUEL: Mr Sibisi, can you confirm that you had made two applications for amnesty, the one in November and the other one in April 1996?

DUMISANI TOKIZANI SIBISI: Yes, there are two applications that I made but there is only one application for amnesty, and the other application pertains to the fact that I was injured and I wanted to forgive people who injured me.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Samuel, I'm still not clear what he is saying, whether he has made two different applications in respect of different incidents.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Sibisi, just to get some clarity, were these two applications in any way different from each other, were they in respect of separate incidents or was it in regard to the same incident?

DUMISANI TOKIZANI SIBISI: I'm only asking for amnesty for the matter that brought me here.  I was in prison at the time and I was not sure whether my application would reach its destination, so that I wrote this on several pages.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Who assisted you in filling in the first application form which you made on the 26th of November, did you fill this in in your own handwriting?  Who assisted you in filling in the first application form for amnesty, the date of which is the 26th of April 1996, because the 10th of April was written in English?  Now please have a look at the handwriting.

DUMISANI TOKIZANI SIBISI: I wrote several applications really.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Would you like to see the handwriting?

DUMISANI TOKIZANI SIBISI: ...[no English translation]

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you assist him, Mr Samuel?

CHAIRPERSON: I may say that there appears to have been no acknowledgement of receipt or no number allocated to the first application, so the applicant was probably very wise and filled in the second one in November and which was given a number.

MR SAMUEL: It seems, Mr Chairman, that is the position because the first application, the applicant denies that that is his handwriting but he confirms that on the second application that is his signature.  So there seems to be some confusion between the first application and the second application.
	May I then ask that the first application be dispensed with or scrapped and may the Commission proceed with the second application?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.  May I then hand in the bundle of documents as Exhibit A in this matter, by agreement with the Evidence Leader?  Thank you.  May I then proceed, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.
	Mr Sibisi, you are presently on parole and out of prison, why is it that you want to proceed with this amnesty application?

DUMISANI TOKIZANI SIBISI: It is because I want to prove to the victims that I did not do what I did because I hated the people, the deceased.  I want to express my sincerest apology to them.  I did not hate them and I want to make this clear.

MR SAMUEL: Could you tell this Commission, on the day in question how it came about that you all had targeted Mr Madiba and Mr Mthembu and the others that were in that vehicle?

DUMISANI TOKIZANI SIBISI: I don't know where I should start, should I start at the point where they were being attacked or should I start before that?

MR SAMUEL: Before that please, if you could just put the Commission into the picture.