Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.  Did you raise your problems to the executive of the ANC Youth League in the area?  In your area, Moleleki?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Sir, that we did several times, trying to discuss these problems but there was this issue.  The issue was raised that people did not want to be controlled by people from the rural areas.  All efforts came to no avail.

MR MAPOMA: Now let's come to the self defence unit which you said was bombed by Mr Buthelezi in Block F.  When Mr Buthelezi called for a meeting to bomb this self defence unit, were you there in that meeting?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: The meeting you are talking about, I have already indicated that I was appointed as I should withdraw from that meeting.  I should not attend it.

MR MAPOMA: Asked by whom to withdraw from attending that meeting?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I have explained that it was George Mokwena.  He himself too did not reside in Block F.  He resided in another block, Block E.

MR MAPOMA: Now, let me [inaudible] on this.  I'm referring to a meeting where you said, 4 members of your SDU's volunteered to participate in that newly formed SDU, is that the meeting you are talking about?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct sir.  They too were not allowed to partake of that meeting.  They said their problem was known.  And there was nothing we could do.  We left the meeting before it started.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say there were 4 of you there?  Four members of the SDU were present?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: [inaudible] must leave.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: One left and he resided - he stayed behind.  He resided in Block F.  We requested that we be [intervention]

MR MAPOMA: [inaudible] self defence unit turned out to be members of the ANC Youth League in Block F, is that not correct?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: You said in your evidence that Mr Buthelezi was suspected of being a member of the IFP, is this so?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Yet this Mr Buthelezi is the one who was in favour of the ANC Youth League SDU's in Block F.  How do you explain the differences?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Sir, let me explain it this way.  As I have explained that these members deserted and left us to be under Mr Buthelezi, on arrival they did exactly what did not want on our side of SDU, Mr Buthelezi, there were also rumours that he was rubbing shoulders with Inkatha.

MR MAPOMA: Did you believe the rumours?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, we did believe the rumours.

MR MAPOMA: You believe that the ANC Youth League, which was a youth wing of your organisation was working hand in hand with the IFP member, Mr Buthelezi?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct, I did believe it.

MR MAPOMA: You were a member of the ANC at the time, is that so?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And now when the ANC Youth League was working hand in hand with the IFP, then there was a political problem with that one, is that so?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Did you ever raise that with your organisation, the ANC, that your Youth Wing is now working with the enemy?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, we did talk about it.  However this was not taken too seriously because they thought that they would not listen to people who were from the rural areas.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was this person not prepared to listen to the people from the rural areas?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: It was the youth that I was talking about sir.

MR MAPOMA: The question is Mr Sonti, the problem of the ANC Youth League working hand in hand with an IFP aligned person, Mr Buthelezi.  Did you take that problem with the ANC organisation?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct, we did talk about it sir.

MR MAPOMA: Then what did the ANC do about it?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: There were certain members that were sent to talk to Mr Buthelezi.  He rejected all.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Mr Buthelezi deny the fact that he was working with Inkatha?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now let's go to your activities

CHAIRPERSON: And what became of that - did you ever receive any feedback from the ANC as to what their findings were in this regard?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: There were no conclusions made as such Mr Chairperson except that Mr Buthelezi would go away from the area in which we stayed for periods of time.  I don't know why that would happen.  In other words, there was no progress in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: [inaudible] talking about it, that the investigation into the conduct of Buthelezi as to whether or not he was aligned to Inkatha?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the ANC ever come back to you to indicate what their findings were on this matter?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: When I say the ANC, I'm referring to the central group, the ANC Defence Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: [inaudible] to the central structure of the SDU?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You're not referring to the organisation, the ANC as such?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: They are connected.

CHAIRPERSON: As we understand your evidence, the SDU had a problem with Buthelezi who was perceived as working with Inkatha, is that right?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And there was a difficulty again because the ANC Youth League worked with Buthelezi who was perceived as being aligned to Inkatha?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question was, did you take the matter up with the ANC, outside of the SDU structure?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did you take the matter up with?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: As I have already said, the ANC central structure of the SDU.

CHAIRPERSON: The central structure was the structure of the SDU, is that right?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What we want to know is, outside of SDU structures, Shell House, for example, did you take the matter up with Shell House?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Thank you sir.  We took this matter up with McBride who was present at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he say?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I don't remember sir, as I am a worker employed.  However, there was an investigation, the results - or the conclusions thereof I do not remember.

MR MAPOMA: Now is it not correct that Mr Robert McBride was a member of the peace desk of the ANC, to look into the problems of Moleleki?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Certainly sir.  He was a member of the peace desk.

MR MAPOMA: And he investigated the conflict in Moleleki after the incident of the killing of the 9 people who were killed, is that so?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is correct sir.

MR MAPOMA: The killing incident that Mr Robert McBride came into Cape Town in the Moleleki problems?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Correct sir.

MR MAPOMA: And the problems that you had with Mr Buthelezi were problems before the incident [inaudible]?  Do you understand that one?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Correct sir.

MR MAPOMA: So do you still maintain that the matter was taken with Mr Robert McBride even before the incident?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Sir, as we did talk to Mr McBride about Buthelezi, secondly after all this happened as a member of the peace desk, we did talk to him.

MR MAPOMA: You talked to him [inaudible]

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I, personally sir.  On the 9th I was injured, the 9th of December.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, Mr Buthelezi had died when the matter was taken up by Mr McBride.  What do you say to that [inaudible]?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I agree sir that we did talk to Mr McBride after I was injured.