Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-20

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, can I refer you to Exhibit 27.  P27, Mr Chairman.  You will find a note in an official letter there saying that he was on suspension without remuneration, I believe and I am speaking under correction, I think it was from December 1988.  May I just find it for you Mr Chairman.
	Bear with me for a moment Mr Chairman, I will find the correct page for you.  It is Bundle B again, and it is at page 72, Mr Chairman.  The form reads it is an application for transfer/discharge by purchase/notice and it is dated Mr Chairman, I am just looking for a date, oh, there is a date stamp,  17th of March 1990 and what it says - reason for application, already dismissed, Head Office and then there is a number, a reference number, and then it says Mr Chairman, the last words there Mr Chairman, under suspension since January (indistinct) ... So in fact Mr Chairman, you have positive evidence before you, and no contradictory evidence that he was not paid until the time, at the time that he was arrested.

ADV DE JAGER: Is it quite clear that if you are under suspension, that you are not paid?

MR DU PLESSIS: The letter says so, it is not necessarily so, but this letter says so.  In his case.  In his case he was not remunerated, that is what the letter says Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But surely does this really help us?  I understand Mr Memani to say irrespective of what one hundred letters say, his client's version is that he was paid and he is putting his client's version to the witness.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, with great respect, where did Ngo say ever that he was paid at the time when he was arrested?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: That is what Mr Memani is saying.

MR DU PLESSIS: I am saying he is not sticking to the facts of the case, because let him then tell you where on the record it is.  I can tell you where I have found a reference to this whole period of time, I have read through it and I don't think it is going to be of much assistance to you, but it is in the latest record Mr Chairman, at page 280 say from 282 onwards, where this period of time is dealt with.
	Sorry, is it 260, I've just lost the place Mr Chairman, Mr Justice Ngoepe in fact started the questioning during cross-examining by my learned friend Mr Du Plessis, and it dealt with the period of July 1988 onwards.  So that is the only reference that I can find on the record, with respect Mr Chairman.
	I've gone through on the computer, I couldn't find any other record.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think really Mr Memani, is your client's version that he was paid during suspension?

ADV MEMANI: That is correct My Lord, or maybe what I am sure of is that it has been put to him that he was suspended, and he said that he was not suspended and that in fact he was paid right up to the time of his arrest, including the time when he was in prison.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, if that is your instruction from your client, I mean the fact that we can't get reference on the record, it doesn't mean that it was so, it might not have been so, but really what harm has been done if counsel puts to the witness what his client's instructions are?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, but that wasn't the way in which the question was put otherwise I wouldn't have objected.  He said I am putting it to you that he was paid up to the time when he was arrested.
	He didn't say, sir, my client tells me, it is his version, that he was paid until, there is a huge difference between the two.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, just put that qualification in Mr Memani and then we will make progress.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.  Now, Mr Ngo says that he was paid right up to the time of his arrest, including the time when he was undergoing the trial?

UNKNOWN: I have no knowledge of that.

ADV MEMANI: Now, tell me when they asked you for the duty sheet, what did you give them?

UNKNOWN: They didn't look for a duty statement.

ADV MEMANI: What is a duty statement, how does it ...  Okay, what is a duty statement?

UNKNOWN: A duty statement is a statement which is looked for if a policeman is in a problem, or he has committed a crime, they would look for an immediate Commander to give a statement that the day when this person committed this crime, was he on duty or was he off duty.  That is the kind of statement I am talking about.

ADV MEMANI: Now, why were you approached for the duty statement?  Or let's leave that question, did you, what did you state in your duty statement?

UNKNOWN: I wrote that he was off duty when this thing was happening, when the crime was committed.

ADV MEMANI: When did you say he last reported for work?

UNKNOWN: May you please repeat the question?  I am working with him, he was not at work.

ADV MEMANI: No, but this man had deserted you in July, now what did you say was the last time when he reported for duty when they asked for the duty statement?

CHAIRPERSON: Were you in fact asked when he last reported for duty or were you simply asked whether he was on duty at the time the crime was committed?

UNKNOWN: They asked me as to whether he was on duty when he committed this crime, then I replied by saying that he was not on duty.

ADV MEMANI: Did you limit yourself to that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct.

ADV MEMANI: Now, were you called to testify at his trial?

UNKNOWN: No.

ADV MEMANI: Those are my questions My Lord.

ADV MEMANI: .

CHAIRPERSON: Can I ask you to clarify something for me please.  You have been referred to the passage at page 133, oh sorry, I think, page 128, you were asked about entry 115.  Have you got that?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And it starts off black male Madrad at the office and reported.  Who is this black male Madrad?

UNKNOWN: This is Madrad, a friend to Ngo.

CHAIRPERSON: So he reported that he was absent on that day, he had gone to the Security Headquarters?  And if you look at page 133, entry 32, we have now gone from the 25th of May to
the 7th of June, and there you say you found that Constable Ngo wasn't at his room, and according to black fatman, he has changed now from black male, he is now black fatman Madrad, Constable Ngo had left the district without permission?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What was this man Madrad doing hanging around Ngo's quarters?

UNKNOWN: He was helping him with his washing, I saw him doing his washing.

CHAIRPERSON: At 07h30 in the morning?

UNKNOWN: He was helping him with his washing on many times when they were together in his room.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he live in the barracks?

UNKNOWN: He was not staying at the barracks, he was close to the barracks.  Because this police barracks was surrounded by hostels.  We bought some of the blocks within the hostel itself.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you.  Any re-examination?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, Mr Chairman, but I am obliged morally to put the record straight.  I was wrong entirely.  My learned friend, Mr Memani was correct, Ngo gave evidence to say that he was paid his salary until the date of his arrest.  I do apologise he was quite correct, I've just found it on the record.
	I have no questions thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS

MR VISSER: Capt Khoja, the pocket books that you brought with you, I am not talking of earlier pocket books, but the pocket book until the last inscription, I think that was in July 1988, was that the last pocket book that you could find relating to Mr Ngo?  Let's just look at the pocket books?  Could you look at them please.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps, we should place on record, that three of those pocket books have been in my custody since the last hearing and they are the ones that were photostatted as pocket book, the three pocket books.  When we came here, I was handed the fourth pocket book.  It was then photostatted.
	I don't know whether it came from this witness or where it came from.  No, it came from Mr Memani.