Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1996-11-26

ADV POTGIETER: Our investigative team researched this whole incident to see what we could determine or find out about this incident.  It seems that an inquest was held and there are police records which our Investigative team found and it seems as if the police who were involved, that was the Riot Squad.  It is not clear from the police records from where they  came.
 You also said you heard various stories from where they had come.  But they were part of the  Riot Squad.  According to them there was a blockade, there were barricades in Eisleben Road, right across the little passage where he was killed and then some of  these police hid behind a wall in the vicinity of  where the barricades were.
 And it seems that it was those police who were hiding behind the wall who shot Lionel and Quentin.  From the records it appears that the police alleged that after they had hid behind the walls -  after they had shot, they moved away and then the people said two -  they told the police that two little boys have been injured and then only did they realize that two young boys had been shot.
 It seems as if your son and Quentin were inquisitive and were just trying to see what was happening in the road near the barricade.  And it seems as if they were  shot while they were just watching what was going on.  There is no indication whatsoever that they were involved in anything illegal, it seems as if they were just onlookers - that they were just inquisitive and were shot in the process.
 According to the Magistrate who conducted the inquest a Mr Van Greunen according to our records - nobody could be held accountable for this incident and it seems as if the police testified before him that in the first place they admitted to having shot the two sons, they admitted that they shot and killed these two boys, but they alleged that their lives were in danger.  And that they acted in self defence.
 It was brought to our attention later on when we received certain correspondence, certain correspondence by police in Mitchell's Plain that it seems that the station commander in Mitchell's Plain had to write a report and he wrote a letter on the 24th of  December in 1985 in which he said  that your son Lionel Paulsen had been shot and killed by a Constable CJ Kapp.  And in which he said that the other boy, Quentin was shot by Constable WKP Puchert.
 So that is the official explanation put to the Court regarding this shooting incident.  And this is how far our  own investigation has progressed.  We are in the process of trying to find these two policeman who admitted to having shot these two  sons - these two boys, to get hold of them.  We will keep you  informed of what will happen further.
 I  just wanted to bring this under your attention so that you can know  what we are doing about this matter.  But in any case thank you very much for having come here today.  There is very little we can do at this stage and we do not have words to make you  feel any better.  It must have been a terrible blow for parents to loose a son at such a tender age.  And it makes it even worse as if it seems that this - that your son had lost his life without any reason.  He was just inquisitive and he was just standing there.
 But at least it is important that we should find out exactly what happened during this incident, and perhaps it might make you feel better in general.  But it's difficult to give you any specific assistance, but in general it's one of many stories, of the stories we have heard and the things which - of the things which had happened where people and in your case, your family had to suffer and make sacrifices to get out of those dark days.  
 But by investigating this matter and finding out - trying to find out what had happened.  We recognize the contribution your pain had made to bring us to where we are today.  Thank you very much for having come and we will keep you informed.

MR PAULSEN: May I just ask something in the last instance, how can they say that two young boys can threaten them?

ADV POTGIETER: We as a Commission is  not bound to the findings of other organizations - we just start afresh with our investigations and therefore we are justified in asking for explanations and this is  one of the questions they have to answer.  We will provide the answers in the end.

MR PAULSEN: Thank you very  much.

ADV POTGIETER: It is a pleasure.