Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, I did submit a statement to that effect.

MR VALLY: Were you ever called by police to give evidence at all in any matter relating to Tholi's death?

GIFT NTOMBENI: No, I was never called.

MR VALLY: Did you volunteer to make the statement or did police come to you to take a statement from you?

GIFT NTOMBENI: No, they came to me and they said I should submit a statement, I submitted the statement.

MR VALLY: Did they ever come and talk to you again, after you had made a statement to them?

GIFT NTOMBENI: No, they never came.

MR VALLY: Do you remember which policeman took a statement from you?

GIFT NTOMBENI: I do not remember the name of the policeman, but I do remember the face and I can easily identify him, should I see him.

MR VALLY: You didn't happen to see him giving evidence at our hearing in the last week?

GIFT NTOMBENI: No.

MR VALLY: Thank you very much, that is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, can I ask that my cross-examination of this witness stand a little down, two minutes ago I have just been given a statement?  I would like to look at that statement and be able to confront this witness with certain things that appear in that statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Semenya, is that the statement by Absolom  Dumisani Ddonsela?

MR SEMENYA: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you like a short adjournment?  Let's make it three minutes, you can read fast.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: We have lost 21 of these and they are totally useless outside of this hall.  If you want a keepsake or memento, pick some grass or the leaf off a flower, anything you like, but please could we have these back again.  Those of you who had taken them by mistake, and please again make sure that when you leave for lunch today, that you leave them on the seat.
 It is very expensive to replace, they are useless outside, please make sure you bring them back.
 Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Thank you Chairperson.  Sir, do you still have a copy of your subpoena?

GIFT NTOMBENI: No, I don't have it with me, but it is there at home.

MR SEMENYA: Would you be able to bring it for us tomorrow?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Whose name appears on that subpoena?

GIFT NTOMBENI: The name is Gift.

MR SEMENYA: I beg your pardon?

GIFT NTOMBENI: The name is Desmond?

MR SEMENYA: Desmond who?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Desmond Gift.

MR SEMENYA: Gift Desmond?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Desmond Gift.

MR SEMENYA: No, I am trying to establish whose names appear on the subpoena that was served on you?

GIFT NTOMBENI: It is my name.

MR SEMENYA: I beg your pardon?

GIFT NTOMBENI: It is my name, but the surname is not mine.

MR SEMENYA: Whose surname is on the subpoena served on you?

GIFT NTOMBENI: It is Desmond's surname.

MR SEMENYA: Whose address appears on this subpoena served on you?

GIFT NTOMBENI: There wasn't any address.

MR SEMENYA: How was the subpoena then served on you?

GIFT NTOMBENI: I do not know.

MR SEMENYA: Who served the subpoena on you?

GIFT NTOMBENI: I think it is TRC official.

MR SEMENYA: It was brought to you by another person working with you?

GIFT NTOMBENI: It is a TRC official.  They came together, it is the two of them in a car, they said they were from the TRC, they had brought this subpoena.

MR SEMENYA: Where did they find you?

GIFT NTOMBENI: At home.

MR SEMENYA: So the subpoena was having somebody else's name and your address?

GIFT NTOMBENI: I did say that there was no address.

MR SEMENYA: But how did these people know where you stay then?

GIFT NTOMBENI: They were brought by Sponge.

MR SEMENYA: Who is Sponge?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Sibusiso Chili.

MR SEMENYA: Sibusiso Chili shows them your home with a subpoena that doesn't bear your surname?

GIFT NTOMBENI: He didn't know that it wasn't my surname, he knew me as Gift because he stayed with me.

MR SEMENYA: Yes, but these people go looking for Gift Desmond?  They go to Chili's home, Chili's home takes them to you, how does that happen, do you have an explanation?

GIFT NTOMBENI: They had gone to deliver Sibusiso and Lerothodi's subpoenas and they had to give the other subpoena to me.

MR SEMENYA: Maybe somewhere we will find how a subpoena gets given to you which does not bear your name and doesn't have your address but the TRC ascent to your home?
 I was listening to Mr Unterhalter very carefully.  He says he has been requested by the TRC to lead your evidence.  Is he the one who took this statement the other day?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, he is the one.

MR SEMENYA: Can I ask Mr Unterhalter to confirm?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Unterhalter?

MR UNTERHALTER: Mr Chairman, that is not correct.  I did not take the statement from the witness, it was taken by an assistant, Mr Aswi Campher, who is an assistant of my instructing attorney.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Why do you say Mr Unterhalter took the statement from you?

GIFT NTOMBENI: I do not know his name, because I just said it is my Attorney.

MR SEMENYA: Now why do you answer ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Semenya, the interpreter are telling me that you are not giving the witness enough time.  I would be grateful if you take it a little bit slower, thank you.

MR SEMENYA: Why when I ask you whether Mr Unterhalter is the one that took your statement, don't you reply who is Mr Unterhalter?

GIFT NTOMBENI: I am sorry about that.

MR SEMENYA: Have you been convicted for an offence?

GIFT NTOMBENI: No.

MR SEMENYA: Have you been in prison before?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, three times.

MR SEMENYA: For what were you arrested?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Whilst I was staying with Mrs Mandela.

MR SEMENYA: Can you give me that answer again?

GIFT NTOMBENI: I was arrested whilst I was still staying in Mrs Mandela's yard.

MR SEMENYA: My question is why were you arrested, do you know?

GIFT NTOMBENI: I do not know, whenever they came into the yard, they would rake the yard and they would arrest everybody that was there.
 But I have never been charged.

MR SEMENYA: Your statement, somewhere you say when the Dudu's house was bombed, I was in custody with her?  Do you recall that?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, I do.

MR SEMENYA: Why were you in custody during that time?

GIFT NTOMBENI: I don't remember.

MR SEMENYA: You don't remember why you are in custody at the time that Chili's house was bombed?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, that is what I was saying.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, from the examination by Mr Vally, it had occurred to us that they have a statement of the witness that I don't have.
 I don't know if in the fullness of time, one can get a copy of that statement, I may be wrong.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask Mr Vally.  Do you know what statement is being referred to?

MR VALLY: I am not too clear.  If Mr Semenya can indicate which aspect of the examination, I can possibly help.

MR SEMENYA: It was at a point Mr Vally was saying had you made a statement to the police.

MR VALLY: I certainly wasn't referring to a statement that I have.  It is in line with one of the themes we've had that the police have been recalcitrant about properly investigating certain matters, but I do not have a statement in that regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Are you quite close to Lerothodi Ikaneng?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, we are friends.

MR SEMENYA: Would you consider yourselves close friends?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Do you know him to have been involved in any criminal activity?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Can you repeat please.

MR SEMENYA: Do you know Mr Ikaneng, Lerothodi Ikaneng to  have been involved in any criminal activities?

GIFT NTOMBENI: No.

MR SEMENYA: In one of the documents here, he is saying that he used to hijack motor vehicles, do you know that?

GIFT NTOMBENI: No, we were not hijacking, but we were taking targets.

MR SEMENYA: Both you and Mr Ikaneng were holding targets?

GIFT NTOMBENI: Yes, that is true.