Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-17

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct.

MR WEBSTER: You lied on many occasions, did you not?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Yes, if I look back on my life I must have told many lies.

MR WEBSTER: I am dealing particularly with instances where you as major, a high ranking officer, member of the police force existing to protect citizens of this country, you lied deliberately, is that not so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: And yet when the stakes are very high today, you want the Committee and the members of this Committee to believe that today you are telling the truth.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, that is why I am here today, to request amnesty for what I have done wrong in the past.

MR WEBSTER: If I might start off with Exhibit A.  Is it correct that you were not responsible for drawing up that document?  It was drawn up by senior counsel and your attorney?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: It is in fact a document which has been researched by silk and your attorney, is that correct?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Sorry can you just repeat the question?

MR WEBSTER: It is a document which has been researched by your silk and your attorney, is that correct?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: It in fact covers instances which do not apply to you, do you agree with me?

CHAIRPERSON: In other words it covers a lot of instances generally?

MR WEBSTER: That is the point I'm making Mr Chairman.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: In fact some of the psychological motivation in Annexure A is based on people who are more likely to have been in the Defence Force, I'm talking about soldiers, who have been in the trenches, who have been fired upon, who have had mortars and all sorts of explosions, seen legs going up, colleagues dying, that document in fact is intended for people whose lives have been traumatised to that extent, do you agree with me?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I agree with totally, but I would like to qualify.  I also am placed into that category where I had to visit scenes of explosions and had to defuse bombs, so I would place myself into that category.

MR WEBSTER: Let's not play around.  You went around examining scenes of limpet mine explosions, is that not so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct.

MR WEBSTER: You got there after the things had happened most of the time, is that not so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, no, in KwaZulu Natal during my term of employment here, I found scenes where bombs had not been detonated and bombs which I had to defuse by myself.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Botha, is it limpet mines and little bombs that ANC cadres were planting around this country, compared to a person facing the missiles from a Starlin's Organ, are two different kettles of fish.  One is a Sunday School picnic and the other one is real war.

CHAIRPERSON: Just direct your questions please.

MR WEBSTER: Is it not so?

CHAIRPERSON: You can make the political statement later on.

MR WEBSTER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Now to just get back, Mr Botha, you cannot remember this incident clearly, is that not so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: At a stage it might be so, Chairperson, it is an incident which took place 13 years ago.  I can certainly not recall every finer detail.

MR WEBSTER: Exhibit B I think it is, which is your statement, is not a document composed entirely out of your own recollection, is that correct?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, it may be so.  After consultation with some of my colleagues, we could refresh our memories
and once again draw up a document which we believed was the truth, which would be handed up before this Committee.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Botha, looking at Exhibit B and what are going to be Exhibit C and D, have you seen Exhibit C and D?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Yes, I see that.

MR WEBSTER: And will you agree with me that they came off a word processor and save in very few instances, very few paragraphs, they are word for word, figure for figure?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, what I observed and my participation in this incident has been placed in writing and I am prepared to submit it to the Committee or I have done so already and I do not believe that Gen Steyn an I, we drove in one vehicle, that we would have observed more or less the same things, so therefore that is what I observed and what I had done with the faults I had made and the incorrect decisions which I took.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Botha, my point is, trying to make, is that the three applications are almost word for word and figure for figure identical in many respects.  Is it not so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Not absolutely exact, but at the end of the day Chairperson, it is about the same incident, one incident.

MR WEBSTER: And in fact, Mr Botha ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think that he's trying to talk about the one incident but he's saying that there's an amazing similarity between these 3 statements, suggesting that they were all drawn up in such a way that, except for minor alterations, they could have been turned out on a machine.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Yes, Chairperson, there are many similarities in our statements, but initially we have also said this incident took place quite a long time ago, I did consult with Gen Steyn, I did consult with Sgt Wasserman, to refvesh the facts in our memory.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR WEBSTER: And Mr Botha, not only to try and recall the facts, but to plan to strategise and to ensure that the applications would in no way be contradictory, that they would support the application by the other and at the end present one version and one version only, do you agree?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, what was necessary to joggle our memory, it is indeed so, we did discuss it.  The fact remains that I apply for the aforementioned offenses which I requested, I do not see any sense into relating another story and request amnesty for possible offenses which I might have committed.  That is why I sit here, I have nothing to hide.

MR WEBSTER: Are you serious, Mr Botha?  I'm going to suggest to you a little later that you are trying to save your skin.  You are trying to avoid criminal prosecution and you're doing everything in your power to avoid the humiliation of a prosecution and a possible conviction.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr Webster, please I think that this is the amnesty process.  People have committed criminal offenses of a political nature are people who are required or are invited to make an application to this Committee because they've committed criminal offenses.  Now how far can you take that?

MR WEBSTER: Sir, I'm actually suggesting collusion, not at facts but at distorting the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now are you in a position to say where the distortion occurs?  You can say that there's similarity in the version.  We haven't yet gone through the other exhibits.

MR WEBSTER: We will try and demonstrate to you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Right you are.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Botha, from what I understand, according to your evidence, you had never met any of the 4 people who were ultimately shot and killed, is that correct?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, as far as I know, I never met any of these persons except for where one of these persons had been in detention and I might have passed the cell, but personally I did not know these persons.

MR WEBSTER: Furthermore Mr Botha, in so far as the alleged attack on Mrs Sabelo and her children, you had no facts, you merely had reports by informer or an informer, is it not so?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.  It is indeed so, it was information.

CHAIRPERSON: Was anybody prosecuted for that murder?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: As far as I know, no one Chairperson.