Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-29

MR JANSEN: Thank you, Mr Chairman, just one.
	Mr Flores, page 46 of the paginated documents, at the top paragraph you say the following, and I quote:
"De Kock contacted Pretoria and asked for a pistol and grenades to be delivered to the scene immediately and three hours later Roelf Venter delivered the goods, which was placed by the victims."
Is that your recollection?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.  I had heard at one stage that Col de Kock mentioned, seeing that there was a problem, that no weapons had been found on the deceased and that this was now a problem, I am certain the name of Roelf Venter was mentioned because they would have only travelled at midnight from Pretoria to Island Rock.

MR JANSEN: Yes, you have heard Mr Ras' evidence in this regard.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Yes, that is correct.

MR JANSEN: Would you like to comment?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I would just have to rectify it, that I was mistaken here and I misplaced Mr Venter in this incident.

MR JANSEN: In other words, the name of Mr Venter was mentioned and the fact that you place him at the scene is the reconstruction, is that correct?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR JANSEN: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Jansen.  Mr Lamey, any questions?

MR LAMEY: No questions, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moerane, any questions?

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	I have a problem with that version of yours, Mr Flores.  You see you made this statement ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think it was also December, December 1996.

UNKNOWN: No, on the 13th, yes the 13th of December 1996, in Pretoria.  I assume that before you made this statement you refreshed your memory with regard to the events that had occurred there, is that correct?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Chairperson, I don't know what he means by refreshing my memory at that stage.

UNKNOWN: Well the events took place in 1988 and you made the statement in 1996, so you had to look back eight years.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: And you had to make certain that what you had and what you included in your amnesty application was the truth and the whole truth, not so?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Now you see, what you are saying here on page 46, fourth line, after you say that
"They were shot to pieces, all dead"
Then you say:
"None of them were armed, not even in their luggage.  There was a problem."

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR MOERANE
"And de Kock contacted Pretoria, and asked for a pistol and grenades to be delivered to the scene immediately."

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is how I put it here, that's correct.

UNKNOWN: Now did that occur?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: No, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Why did you put it in?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Chairperson, at that stage, as I have answered previously, I placed Mr Venter there because some of the people had to drive from the farm, that would be Vlakplaas, Chairperson, on their way to Island Rock for the team-building effort, as was mentioned before and as Mr Martinus Ras had said, he had firearms and made it available for the planting thereof.  I did not even know that.  That Mr Venter was at the scene, he was definitely not at the scene.  If I recall correctly, and I believe somebody might assist me with this, at approximately 1 o'clock or 2 o'clock late morning, after 12 midnight, Mr Venter and other members arrived or stopped at the Piet Retief Security Branch - I did not mention this in my application, on route to Island Rock.  And it might be because I saw him there and that might have sketched the picture that he might have brought the things there.

UNKNOWN: But you see you say
"Three hours later, Roelf Venter delivered the goods, which was placed by the victims."
In other words, I assume you mean placed near the victims.  Is that what you are trying to say by that?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I am trying to say, Chairperson, that I heard "Roelf Venter", three hours later I saw him, as I have said, I saw him at Piet Retief, things were planted, so I assumed that he had brought the material to be planted.  For example the pistol as the previous witness had said.  That was my impression.

UNKNOWN: But isn't that how you recalled the incident?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's how - at that stage when I made my statement, that is how I saw it.

UNKNOWN: I have a problem also with the second page of your amnesty application, page 47.  You see when you describe the incident you say
"The three of us (that is yourself, Mr Vermeulen and Mr de Kock) were well ahead of the rest."
In other words, you ran ahead after this kombi had stopped.
"... and Haynes ..."
I suppose by Haynes you mean Hayes, is that correct?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct.
MR MOERANE
"... had a spotlight and was giving us light from behind."
Then you say:
"A shot rang out from the vehicle."
That is what I have a problem with.  No shot rang out from the vehicle.  What's your comment?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: Chairperson yes, as I have stated it here - as we have heard previously, the vehicle moved past and did not stop at the place where it was supposed to stop and as I recall, Col de Kock, myself and Mr Vermeulen and Mr Nortje were the first ones who arrived at the vehicle.  We were also the first persons who started shooting at that stage.  I don't know who carried the light because the Eastern Transvaal people arrived there after we did.  Yes, I did hear a shot fired from that side of the vehicle.
	I mention here that it came from the vehicle.  I am not an expert in arms, it may be so that Col de Kock had fired first, it may have been that these were his shots.  When I ran to the vehicle I heard shots fired and I shot afterwards.  I cannot say whether, after I had heard Col de Kock's evidence, that it did come from the vehicle.  That is correct so.

UNKNOWN: So do you accept that Col de Kock fired the first shot, that killed the occupant of the kombi?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: I would accept it as such, yes Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: And do you accept that the version that you gave in a statement in preparation for the second inquest, which is found in bundle 5, page 60, is false?  Have a look at that.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: That's a statement which was taken from you - well let me not say it was taken from you, that's a statement which you signed on the 22nd of December 1989 in Pretoria, which was attested by Brig van Wyk.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct, Chairperson, I did not make this statement, I assume that it was drawn up and I only signed it.

MR CORNELIUS: Mr Moerane, 22nd of June.

UNKNOWN: What did I say?

MR CORNELIUS: December.

UNKNOWN: Oh I'm sorry, I meant the 22nd of June 1989.  That's right, yes.
	So you say this was just placed before you and you signed it?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: But you accept that the basic content is false, the gist of it is false?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That's correct, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: You see on page 61, first paragraph, third line, it says
"The passenger, left in front, jumped out of the vehicle and started firing."
You actually didn't see that occur?

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: No, I did not see that at all, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: But that was the version that was supposed to be placed before the inquest.  In fact that was actually placed before the inquest magistrate.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: That is how I heard it now, yes Chairperson.