Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-10

MR NDIMA: So he said how did you hear, how did you hear that they had guns?  There was a man who was arrested for gun possession amongst them, I can't remember what was his name?
 It was that man there, that is Yamile, him.

MR NTSEBEZA: Is that the one who was taken for having a gun?  The ones that are called (indistinct)

MR NDIMA: I said yes.  The ones that even had a stand.  He said he was testing the others, he was testing the other one next to Crossroads and he nearly hit a child next to a stand and I asked him, he said no, I was just testing that.
 I said no don't test, don't aim towards us when you are testing it.  Just go outside because look now, you nearly hit a child.  He said okay, that's fine, I understand.

MR NTSEBEZA: What did this White man say?

MR NDIMA: So I said ask this man whether there isn't anyone who has been found with unlawful guns, they said yes, there is someone who has been arrested.
 I asked for these old guns, they said no it was new guns.  So I said this man who was arrested, he doesn't go to the gunshop, he doesn't go to the gunshop, but he must have gotten it from you.
 This man is Black, he doesn't go to the gunsmith, to the gunshop, you must have given him, you are the ones who are setting us one against the other.
 And so they said, that's what I said, I am taking over your duties now, because you have failed to perform it.  Now I am going to take it over.  I am requesting you because you can go into the gunshop, give me guns so he said to this White man from Pretoria, yes, because we also need to have guns so we can shoot when we are being shot at.
 You see what I am trying to explain here, what I was trying to hide here is that we also had guns which we were hiding underground, but I was trying to ...

MR NTSEBEZA: Please ladies and gentlemen, this is a very sensitive issue.  I can see - when he speaks he has a very humorous way of speaking, but the issue that we are talking about is a very sensitive one.  We want to link up events - Pretoria, how was Pretoria because it is very clear that people was being set against one another, we must get the proceeding.

MR NDIMA: So what I want to explain, when we were asking for these guns, we were doing this because we wanted it to appear that we also got this from them, although we also had our ones.
 But this White man said no, I must hear from Pretoria, we will meet the next day.  Now I said man, you are always postponing, procrastinating and people are dying, people are dying every day.  He said please be patient, let me just ask Pretoria because I am under Pretoria myself.
 So I said okay, I will see you tomorrow.  The following day he came back saying Pretoria said this war had not been declared legally.  The other nations can question it if they can give me guns because this war has not been officially declared.
 So I said okay if it has not been officially declared and then he said but they said I must give you two men who are very good shots.  Who know how to use a bullet, then they can tell you how this - you can trace the origin of a bullet so he gave me Barnard and Mr Loocke.
 Although Mr Loocke I never met, I never saw him.  It was always Barnard.

MR NTSEBEZA: And this Barnard and Loocke are they good shots?

MR NDIMA: Yes, these are good shots, I'm being given people who are good shots so that they should aim and get the people who had guns on the other side.  So this man said - the one that has been hit, his gun would be taken away from the fallen one and it would be given, so I said would this be given for us to use and he said yes.
 Yes, this White man from Pretoria, the plan is you are going to go out with Barnard and go to these people who are burning other people and Barnard and Loocke are going to shoot for you?  And let's say for example if a person was carrying a gun, he is one of the people, let's say it is Yamile himself, because his got guns, when he has fallen, his weapons would be taken and given to you and then we would use it.
 And then he said that is the word from Pretoria, that is the instruction I got from Pretoria to convey to you.  So I said ... (tape ends) ... the reason I was asking that, I was - I knew because we were going to use our own ones.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did he say that you wouldn't be arrested even if you shoot?

MR NDIMA: He said you would not be arrested for shooting, he said no, we won't be arrested.

MR NTSEBEZA: So on the 17th of May a fight started in 1986, at Portland Cement - was this because you already had got all these instructions that Pretoria was going to be on your side?

MR NDIMA: When we did what?

MR NTSEBEZA: Isn't it so that the fight started at Portland Cement in May?  When you started hitting the people who are burning others, at Toyise's area?

MR NDIMA: No, it is not Toyise's area, we also hit the one at the Yamile's area, we also got it.  We were hitting people who were necklacing other people.

MR NTSEBEZA: And what about people who were burning houses?

MR NDIMA: Well, I don't have any knowledge about those because I personally didn't go there.  I would stay in my house being guarded by other men, people like Hoza.  The instruction was that I shouldn't go because of my age.
 Barnard would send ammunition to me so that we could supply people who have run out of ammunition.  Ammunition was brought to me yes, to supply those who have run out of ammunition.

MR NTSEBEZA: Were there all sorts of ammunition?

MR NDIMA: No, every sort of ammunition was there.

MR NTSEBEZA: At the time of KTC have you already been taken away?

MR NDIMA: At the time of the attack of KTC?  You see at the time KTC was burning, I wasn't there, I wasn't there.  Not that I was taken away, I went to this man, this man mustn't come back soon to Ngxobongwana because ...

MR NTSEBEZA: Did he run away?

MR NDIMA: Yes, he had run away so I went - each time there was a fight, he was taken away because the leader must be taken away to defend him.  To protect the leader, he must be taken away when there is a fight.

MR NTSEBEZA: Is that why you went to tell him not to come back.

MR NDIMA: Until you hear from me, no stay, you will hear from me.

MR NTSEBEZA: And then when you came back, on the day you came back by plane?

MR NDIMA: This Boer said can you see KTC is on fire.

MR NTSEBEZA: Which Boer is that now?

MR NDIMA: This was the Boers that was with me in the plane.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did they fly you down and back, what was this - was it a small plane?

MR NDIMA: No, it is a helicopter, the small fly machines.

MR NTSEBEZA: It was very clear that these Boers were very, very determined to help you in this war, it looks like.

MR NDIMA: Yes, it - you see Ngxobongwana was very highly respected by these Whites, they respected him very highly.

MR NTSEBEZA: Why, why?

MR NDIMA: I can say he can talk to this Whites well, he speaks Afrikaans.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you very much sir, the other people are going to ask you.

MR NDIMA: Well, they can come, let them come.

CHAIRPERSON: We need to appeal to the audience, we are going to miss very important information if there is too much noise and we cannot hear what is being said.
 For yourselves too you will miss an opportunity to piece together a very important story.  So I am appealing to you to please try and restrain yourselves, please do not make remarks and make a noise in the  hall, because we are finding it extremely difficult to concentrate and extremely difficult to hear on our headphones what is being spoken.
 I appeal to the audience to please be quiet, otherwise we will have to invoke the powers that we have at our disposal as the Truth Commission to ensure that there is quiet and decorum in this room, thank you very much.
 I would like to ask the panellists if they would like to ask any questions.  Mary Burton?

MARY BURTON: Mr Ndima, you were one of the very first people to go and settle in Crossroads, weren't you?