Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-30

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't this idea of attacking Steyn as a political reason, an after-thought to your application?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, it is, but if we did not intend to attack Mr Steyn, we wouldn't go to Empangeni.  We would do everything in (indistinct), but the reason for us to go to Empangeni, our intention was to go for Mr Steyn.

MR LAX: What were the chances of the Head of the Murder and Robbery Unit in Empangeni, he was a Major, what were the chances of the Head of the Detective Unit arriving at the scene of a crime before anyone else, so that you could assassinate him?  I mean, really?  Can someone just help him with his headphones please?
	They are going to give you another one.   Can you hear now?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes.

MR LAX: The question I am asking, is a simple one.   Did you seriously expect the Head of the Murder and Robbery Unit, which is a Detective organisation, to come personally to the scene of a crime in response to it being perpetrated?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: That was also possible, but our aim was to attack Mr Steyn.  We had heard that if something happens, he is the first person to come to the scene.  I cannot say he wouldn't be there, yes, there was a possibility.

MR LAX: Steyn was the Head of the Murder and Robbery Unit, as you know?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I didn't have that knowledge.  I only knew him as one of the policemen of the Murder and Robbery in Empangeni.  That is what I knew.

MR LAX: Just a last point, you said that when you eventually did see Steyn, it wasn't the same person who you had originally been pointed out to, you didn't make him out at all, is that right, did I hear you correctly?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I do not understand the question, when, whereabouts?

MR LAX: You said you saw Steyn afterwards, after you were arrested?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I saw him before my arrest, before the operation.

MR LAX: I thought you said in your evidence after a question by the Chairperson, that Steyn didn't arrest you, but you saw him after you were arrested and you did not, he wasn't the same person you had been pointed out to, that is what the evidence was at that stage, as I understood it?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I did not put it that way.   I mentioned that Steyn, Sifiso pointed Mr Steyn out and after we were arrested, during the investigation, I saw Mr Steyn.  He was also there in Empangeni while I was arrested.

MR LAX: I clearly misunderstood your evidence, but thank you for clearing it up.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, when you completed your form, your application form for amnesty, did you do it yourself?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I asked a certain comrade to write it in English, but I can also read English, but I wanted him to use a proper spelling as I am not good in the spelling.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you read it before you signed it?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, he read it out to me.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were satisfied that he had properly completed that form?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was that comrade?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: It is a certain comrade by the name of Moses Skosana, who was an inmate in Westville prison.   There were also legal representatives.  Moses Skosana is the one who wrote the application form.

CHAIRPERSON: who was the legal representative?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I cannot remember well, I cannot say, I do not know his name, or her name?

MR LAX: Wasn't it Jabulani Mokoena?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I am not sure, I cannot remember the name.

MR LAX: Because he is the lawyer who signed it when you took the oath?  Do you see that?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, I can see that.

MR LAX: Is it the same person who was present?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: This happened a long time ago, but all I know is that a certain comrade helped me during that process.

CHAIRPERSON: What was that comrade's name?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Skosana.

CHAIRPERSON: Skosana.

CHAIRPERSON: Who else was present when you ...

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: There was Tom Madlala.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Lucky Sithole was also present.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, anybody else?

MR LAX: Translation please?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Most of the ANC comrades were present there, because we were at the hall.

CHAIRPERSON: But immediately present with you, you made the statement to Skosana, recorded it in English because you wanted proper English spelling.

MR LAX: Who was listening?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well, aside from that, who was in attendance there with you and Skosana?  Was anybody else in attendance?  I know they were all in the hall, I understand that, but specifically when you were completing your form, Skosana was there.  Was Tom Madlala there by you or was he roaming around in the hall?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Tom Madlala was in the room, but he is one of the people who saw my statement, because he is a person that I used to work with.

CHAIRPERSON: But when you were making it, was he roaming around or was he by you?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: The person who was close to me, was Lucky Sithole.  Yes, Tom Madlala was there, but he was also helping other comrades as well.  After completing the statement, I showed it to Tom Madlala.

CHAIRPERSON: And Lucky Sithole, you say, was immediately by you, helping you, or was he also helping others also at the same time?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: He was also helping the other comrades.

CHAIRPERSON: So as I understand your evidence, Madlala and Sithole were overseeing the completion of these forms?  Correct?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: As I am saying, there were many comrades there, and Tom Madlala was amongst the comrades, as a person who was working with me closely, I did give him the statement to look at it, because I knew that he was very familiar with the political struggle.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you show it to anybody else?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: After showing it to Tom Madlala, I took it to the legal representative who was there.

CHAIRPERSON: And you gave it to him?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, I gave it to the legal representative.

CHAIRPERSON: So, no one else saw this document, only Tom and Skosana and yourself and the legal representative?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And as far as I understand your evidence, when Skosana read it out to you, you signed it?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And it was commissioned by this other person, this lawyer you say?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: What actually happened is Skosana assisted me while drafting the statement, he drafted the statement in his own hand, and I was dictating to him, and I read it with him and he checked for the mistakes.  After that Tom Madlala took a look at the statement and Lucky Sithole was also there, as he was writing with Skosana, and then I decided to take it to the legal representative, who read the statement and then he told me to sign.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Now, do you know, was Malevu there?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: No, he was not there.

CHAIRPERSON: When you filled in the form?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: No, he was not there, he was not in the hall.

CHAIRPERSON: And Shandu?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: No, he was also not present.

CHAIRPERSON: You heard your Attorney make an application earlier today, I am not too sure which set of facts I must quote to you, but basically and in effect what they are saying is when you made the statement, you made it on their behalf as well.  Do you know anything about that?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: I made this statement, my own statement.  Sifiso drafted his own statement and then he told me about it, but we did not draft the statements the same day.  He told me about it and even Mzwake Shandu, I wrote a letter to him about this TRC forms and then he told me that he was about to fill in the TRC forms also.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was he that you wrote to him?  Was he not in the same prison?

ZIBA GERALD MPANZA: No, he was not in the same prison.

CHAIRPERSON: So, did he write back to you?