Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-20

MR PATEL: Objection, Mr Chairman.  We've traversed this already.  The witness has made it absolutely clear, and accepted by Mr Hattingh, that annexures A1 is not a complete and exhaustive list.  There are lots of other things which memory fails and which he hasn't put forward or hasn't been put forward as prepared by Mr Silos Nkonyane.  We've traversed this.  For that reason it's unfair to suggest to the witness that because annexure A1 is silent as to what happened after a particular date, therefore nothing was happening.  As it pleases the Committee.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I'm not suggesting that nothing happened.  All I'm saying, and I'm asking this witness to perhaps give us his thoughts in this regard, is that in his own statement with annexure A1 annexed to that statement, no mention is made of any killings of ANC people during that period.  Although we accept that he says that they can't remember each and every incident, I just want this witness to explain perhaps why this relatively calm period of six months prior to the decision of the assassination of Chris Ngwenya, whether this could be explained.

MR SANDI: But, Mr Hattingh, I don't understand the witness to be suggesting that during what you have referred to as a calm period there were no incidents of killing, harassment etcetera here.  He doesn't say there were no such incidents during that period, and I think implicit from what he has said, perhaps not much weight should be attached to this annexure here if we are to look for a complete and exhaustive list of all individual incidents that were happening here.  I'm trying to say I have a difficulty with what you're trying to put to the witness.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I'm not trying to submit to this Committee a list of incidents of the time.  What I'm doing is, I'm cross-examining a witness with regard to his statement in which is incorporated an annexure which purports to show this Committee what occurred during that period.  Although it is not exhaustive, the reason for the incorporation thereof is in fact to show to this Committee how many ANC people were killed and people who suffered at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this so?  Is it not possible that it was attached merely to indicate the type of problems that were being experienced as example?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, if that was the case then one would not have expected this witness in his statement to say that one can see that after the assassination of Zwane, nothing happened.  The violence was still continuing and he in fact in his statement incorporates the annexure.  Now, I think it's for the witness to explain perhaps why there was nothing of note to mention in annexure A1 if they discussed it between themselves to add to that list during the period six months prior to the decision to assassinate Chris Ngwenya.

MR SANDI: Maybe the question you should be putting to the witness is whether he's aware of any incidents that were taking place immediately before the killing of Ngwenya.  Perhaps that is the question you should be asking him.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I would prefer my own question, but if all else fails we can ask the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: In drafting that annexure A, can you explain to us today, if you can't say you can't, why there's not specific mention of any specific incident which would have influenced the committee's decision to assassinate Mr Ngwenya?

MR PATEL: With respect, Mr Chairman, I don't think that that can really be put to the witness.  I mean, we've got the assassination of the first leader some time in July 1991.  If we peruse Exhibit A1, page nineteen (19), there are a number of incidents cited therein which occur after the death of Jwi Zwane.  And these incidents are serious.

CHAIRPERSON: Is from ten (10) August to March '92.  Ten (10) August '91 to March '92.  Yes, that's incident number fifteen (15) on page nineteen (19) to incident seventeen (17).  By my arithmetic, that's more than six months.

MR PATEL: What is also more important there, it's recorded in paragraph sixteen (16) that there are many more others that we could not access their dates.  Now, to put to this witness that nothing was, and that's the implication I get from the question, nothing was happening in this period.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you misunderstand.  The question, if I can make it as simple as I can, are you able to explain why for the period August '91 to February '92 incidents that may have occurred during that period were not mentioned in annexure A.

JOHN MNDEBELE: There are certain incidents that took place.  As I've already explained that people were being victimised continually.  We would get injured people, killed people and at the time people were not able to go to the extension.  If you were a member of the ANC you could not go to that area.  The victimisation still continued.

MR SANDI: Ja but, Mr Mndebele, are you able to recall any specific major incident which occurred immediately before Mr Ngwenya was killed?

JOHN MNDEBELE: There was a time when people were killed.  That was before Chris was killed where bodies were discovered.  I think there were about two victims that I do remember were coming from night school and at times we would get reports from members of the community that certain people had been injured and had been admitted to the hospitals, and we did get complaints from people who were not able to visit certain areas.  And these were the incidents that took place which made us realise that the violence had not yet been quelled and we wanted some political tolerance to prevail.  So, that's when we decided that we should remove Ngwenya.

MR SANDI: This situation you've just talked about of continuing violence immediately before Mr Ngwenya was killed, was the name of Mr Ngwenya mentioned?  Was he in any way implicated in these incidents?

JOHN MNDEBELE: The information that was at our disposal was that he was always the leader during such attacks and that when his followers carried out these attacks they did them on the basis of the instructions that they received from Chris.  So, we knew that he was actually the instructor and the commander.

MS BOSMAN: Mr Mndebele, did you in any way keep a record of the complainants to your committee from members of the community?

JOHN MNDEBELE: No, we never used to record.  We did record some of these complainants, but others were not recorded.

MR SANDI: Ja but, Mr Mndebele, the list you have prepared of various incidents that were taking place during this time gives one the impression that someone was keeping a list of these events somewhere.

JOHN MNDEBELE: When this report was compiled we went to certain members of the community who were victims or relatives of victims and we went around collecting this information and we would write it down.  That's how we got to compile it.

MR SANDI: How were you able to recall who to go to in order to compile this list?

JOHN MNDEBELE: There would be certain people that we remember, others would be remembered by others.  It was sort of a domino effect thing, whereby everybody would contribute and say, "I know of a victim somewhere", and we would go to the respective victims.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Mndebele, so it's clear that your committee or perhaps yourself made an effort to go to the community to obtain the information to enable you to compile annexure A1 to give an indication as to the events of that particular period?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I can put it in this manner.  We wanted to get the names as well as the surnames, that is the full particulars of the victims.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Mndebele, you went to the community for information about violence at the time, is that correct?

JOHN MNDEBELE: We had the information.  We wanted to get the names or the full particulars of the victims.