Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR MCADAM: And taking it further, General Joubert's plan involved firstly the attack on doctor Ribeiro and his wife in their home in Mamelodi. They were both shot dead. The plan went further to go into an area which was a thriving recruitment centre for would-be members of Umkhonto weSizwe, that operatives would come into that area, go to the youths, tell them they're members of Umkhonto weSizwe, they're looking for volunteers for military training. Those people would be taken into a kombi, driven to a remote spot near the borders of Botswana, blown up. They also resorted in the assassination by means of a car bomb of Peter Ntuli, a homeland leader. And in that particular instance the ANC in exile claimed responsibility for Peter Ntuli's death saying they were riding the country of a notorious homeland leader. Can you just comment on these type of actions that were carried out by the commander of special forces, members of his staff in support of the police?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Mr Chair I don't know whether special forces did this. I have no specifics about this. I don't know and I have no information under which circumstances this took place. Was it armed terrorism or weren't they armed terrorists? If it had not been the case then it would have resulted in big problems because then one is not helping the counter revolutionary struggle. This kind of incidence you would have to investigate and one would have to put questions subjectively to these people. I've given my clear point of view on this and I can't add anything to it.

MR MCADAM: (...indistinct) General it goes even further. It's submitted by both Geldenhuys and Joubert that within weeks of the deaths of the Ribeiros that Joubert reported this to Geldenhuys and Geldenhuys' only response was to say: "Stop any further such operations." That's for your information. And I would like you to comment as a former chief of the Defence Force, as the Minister of the Defence Force, how appropriate was the course of action implemented by general Geldenhuys when he received this information that this is how Joubert had operated?

MR MARITZ: Mr Chairman I'm sorry, you're putting my client on the line. You ask him to judge a matter. It's not his function to judge. We know what the facts are, we know that it's sitting before the Commission and it is in my submission unreasonable to ask my client to sit in judgement. He has made his position patently clear. And I think it's unfair to ask him this. And also it's unfair towards those people who I believed have asked for amnesty to have the General make it a public judgement which may be to their detriment and where they don't have the opportunity of testing him.

MR LYSTER: Thank you Mr Maritz. With greatest of respect it appears that if an uncomfortable question is asked of the General then there is an intervention and I think that it is an appropriate question that this is sworn evidence before the Commission from General Geldenhuys from major General Joop Joubert, from others, major Hechter. That this is what they did as part of special forces and as chief of the Defence Force. And the question that is being asked of the General as a senior politician as he then was, was is this sort of thing appropriate. A: is it appropriate what major general Joubert did as head of special forces? And B: is it appropriate that General Geldenhuys should say well don't do it again? General Malan has talked extensively today about the need to maintain law and order, to act within the bounds of what is lawful. And I must say that it is a fair question. Does he have an opinion as to whether what these two people did was correct?

MR MARITZ: Mr Chairman look I don't want to fight with you at all. You know me well enough for that. I merely wish to record that I take up (...indistinct) the suggestion that I am trying to prevent or to save my client from a difficult situation. That is decidedly not the aim. I've merely pointed out the difficulty in regard to the result of what is now sort. But you've made your ruling and we must proceed, if it's of any value to the Commission by all means if you think so, let him answer the question with all the consequences attached. But I voice my disappointment. That it is said that I am trying to protect my client in a manner which is not lawful or proper. Thank you.

MR LYSTER: Thank you. Do you have a response to that question General as to whether what major general Joubert as head of special forces did and B: what follow up action General Geldenhuys took in the circumstances?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Mr Chair it's very difficult for me to answer this question because you have had the opportunity to listen to Joubert as well as Geldenhuys. I am sure that they had given much more detail than the question contains, has been put to me now. This makes it difficult in a sense, do I get all the information they've placed on the table or don't I? If I have to go according to this limited amount of information without knowing what it is about and what we are dealing with I cannot express an opinion and I think that, that's where you must listen subjectively. If General Joubert has transgressed the laws of the land he will have to take the consequences. If there are laws in the country I'm certain of it that there are if you would hide this kind of information or would not take the necessary steps, then steps must be taken against you. That must be logical, that's all I can add. But I must tell you straight that I do not know whether these people have broken the laws of the land. Because I am not trained in law.

MR MCADAM: (...indistinct) killing one of it's leaders who've become an embarrassment, you said that's straight murder and if we look at Peter Ntuli, if the roles are swopped around, it's exactly the same situation. You have a homeland leader which at that stage was one of the organs which supported the National Party government and that person's murdered and it's made to look like the ANC did the job to get him out of the way. Because what happened is that his excesses were such that the people who lived in that community were joining the ANC in droves.

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: You are not understanding me correctly. I said that murder is not acceptable, under no circumstances would murder be acceptable. If it had not been an armed attack. I remain with that position. What I'm now saying is something completely different. I do not know the particulars of the circumstances but if what you are saying is correct that a murder was committed then the laws of the land must take the necessary steps. I do not want to be associated with murder. The government cannot be associated with murder and I never gave any orders that. I gave my first evidence, I was never asked and I never gave permission that people could be murdered.

MR MCADAM: And in the background of the type of Defence Force which operated at that stage, this would be completely bizarre and extraordinary conduct on the part of both General Geldenhuys and General Joubert?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: If they transgressed the laws of the land. Yes. If a murder was committed. Yes. That's what I said.