Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman the very following one, the killingof a policeman and his wife in Hammanskraal, the same applies,it has been complied with.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Is this compliance notification to boththe victims and to all interested parties?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee at thismoment, and as far as the three are concerned compliance willmean notification to the victims and their legal representatives. We did not form those affected in the application.

JUDGE WILSON: But doesn't the Act require that, that'sthe point raised yesterday?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman the Act requires that, but giventhe time constraints Mr Chairman that I could not do between yesterdayand today, because I had to make sure that the victims of theirlegal right and legal representation which has been done, butI did not have the time to do the rest Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps by the time we reach these applicationswe may be able to have complied with those requirements.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman we may be able to do that by then.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Mpshe I did not understand you, whenwere the requirements complied with?  By complying with the requirementsI assume you mean serving them with the necessary notice, whenwas this?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman this was done yesterday.  As I havealready indicated the time constraints to which I was subjected,I had to depend entirely on the Investigating
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Officers who were doing the job right around the clock includingeven yesterday, but they informed me later while the session wason that the people that I said there was no compliance are alreadyhere and they introduced them to me.  They were present yesterday. But in the morning I was not aware thereof. They could have donethis over the weekend.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Do you have anyindication from them what their attitude is towards the application?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is so.  I spoke to the victims, or ...(indistinct)victims their attitude is opposing the applications and they havetheir legal representatives with them.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: In all these three instances that you havementioned?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In the Hammanskraal one.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: There is a legal representative present?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: There is a legal representative, Mr Brian Curren. In the Nyalunga one I explained to them yesterday they said thereis none and they don't need any.  And the Committee can confirmthat as soon as they take the stand.  In the killing of Joe Tselethe same applies, the six children were here, I explained to them,and they said they don't need any legal representation.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: That is number 8?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is number 2 from the top, the killing ofJoe, it's spelt - it's supposed to read Joe Tsele.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Oh I see.  Thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The policeman I am sorry in Hammanskraal, theyhave a legal representative.

ADV DE JAGER: Are they satisfied that they had ampletime to prepare and consider their position?
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman I did not get into that one becauseyesterday I made available copies of the relevant events to themin the afternoon as agreed between me and them and they did notindicate to me that they still need time or that they are notsatisfied.  Perhaps if they are not they will have to state itas soon as they take the stand for cross-examination purposes,but I did not ask them as to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes may we proceed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Further Mr Chairman the last thing I want tomention is that in terms of this schedule the hearings are dividedinto two, the hearing in Johannesburg as well as the hearing inPretoria.  May I just make it known to the honourable membersof the Committee that we shall not be sitting in Pretoria dueto lack of venue as indicated to me by the TRC regional office. All matters will be dealt with in Johannesburg, at this hearing. Thank you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: In Joburg at which venue, do you have asuitable venue in Joburg.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman I am looking around for it all invain.  Unfortunately Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee I amnot responsible for arrangement of the venues but the logisticoffice in Joburg was responsible for this type of a venue andwhen I indicated to them that can't we have something else andthey said this is all they have, and I have to make do with whatthey've got.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mpshe has the changed of venue been explainedto the victims?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes Madam.

JUDGE WILSON: That is the victims who were notified thatthe hearing was going to be next week in Pretoria, have they beennotified already that it will be here?
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: All of them have been notified.

JUDGE WILSON: And do I understand you to say that youwere told, and I know it's not your responsibility, this was theonly venue available in Johannesburg?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Indeed so, that is the information given tome.

JUDGE WILSON: And that there is not a single venue availablein Pretoria, including the universities and other such places?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is what was conveyed to me by the logisticofficer as well as the manager of the office, Mr Patrick Kelly.

ADV DE JAGER: Pretoria seems to be overcrowded.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It seems so.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Let us proceed with the hearing.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman I think that is all.  I will handover to my colleague.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Before we proceedMr Chairman I would just like to hand up copies of the documentsI promised which I will have available this morning.  The documentsare firstly the telephone list and then the article to which Irefer to during cross-examination.  Mr Chairman it is possiblethat reference might later be made to the telephone lists specifically. It sets out quite clearly the structure of the Northern TransvaalSecurity Branch.

CHAIRPERSON: These telephone lists will be handed in asExhibit C.
EXHIBIT C HANDED IN - TELEPHONE LISTS

UNKNOWN: As the Court pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: And the article in the journal will be ExhibitD.
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118 BRIG CRONJE
EXHIBIT D HANDED IN - ARTICLE IN JOURNAL

UNKNOWN: As the Court pleases.  Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman if the Committee agrees with the procedure that mylearned friend and I have agreed upon we will now go ahead withcalling Brigadier Cronje with the purpose of giving certain backgroundevidence.  The purpose of this evidence Mr Chairman would be thatI don't have to lead this kind of evidence in respect of eachof the five applicants.  Some of the evidence overlaps and I don'twant to burden the Committee with the extra evidence.  So I willonly lead Brigadier Cronje on the general background and thenI am informed by my learned friend that we will then deal withColonel Venter's application and specifically with the Pepco 3incident.  But firstly I beg leave to call Brigadier Cronje.

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr du Plessis before you start do I understandit correctly you will not lead the evidence indicated in the scheduleas schedule 4, 6, 3, 5, 8 and 7?

UNKNOWN: Correct.

ADV DE JAGER: You are not leading that evidence?