Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

MR VISSER: I began with them in, or actively, from I would say January 1993, yet passively I would say from about June, July 1992.

UNKNOWN: The Freedom Front was established in March 1995?

MR VISSER: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And you have said, or you've spoken of "we", I am not clear on who you are referring to, is this the Goldman to whom the cheque was made out, was that one of your people?

MR VISSER: No.   As far as I could understand, Mr Clark said to me that the cheque, and I only found this out subsequently, after the police had visited me, that allegedly it was pension money which was paid out to this person.

UNKNOWN: But Mr Roodt, the commander, he used the name of Helgut when he used those cheques.

MR VISSER: That is the cheque.

UNKNOWN: So Mr Roodt made, frauded the cheque, he filled in his name?

MR VISSER: No, as I can recall, Mr Chairman, the cheque was in the name of Calcott, I'm just ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Calcroft?

MR VISSER: Calcott, that was the correct name.   Earlier on, I did mention another name, I wasn't sure, but it was the cheque of Calcott.   Mr Chairman, Mr Roodt took the cheque with a forged ID document in the name of Calcott, and then the cheque account was, I mean an account was opened at Standard Bank, Rosebank, and the cheque was then deposited into that account.

UNKNOWN: You referred to a matter where Mr Edwin Clark would have gone to Radio Pretoria?

MR VISSER: Yes.

UNKNOWN: In which year was this?

MR VISSER: I cannot say which period of time this took place in, but I knew that he sometimes went there.

UNKNOWN: So there was nothing strange about the fact that he was going to Radio Pretoria?

MR VISSER: No, not at all.

UNKNOWN: You have said that Mr Edwin Clark worked for the accounts of Mr and Mrs Derby-Lewis?

MR VISSER: I wouldn't say both, I wouldn't say that he worked with both of their computers, he just said that he was going to work with their computers.

UNKNOWN: Mr Edwin Clark is a computer expert, is that correct?

MR VISSER: Yes.

UNKNOWN: He also presents classes in computers?

MR VISSER: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And the hard disk which you mentioned, where the police could not find all the information, you would not be able to argue that in the case of Mr Derby-Lewis in the supreme court in Johannesburg, police officers testified, who were computer experts, who pointed out all the information on the hard disk, and it was all in the hands of the police, you cannot argue that?

MR VISSER: Let me put it this way, I think in the case of Mr Clark, he told me clearly that they could not life his information.

UNKNOWN: But there were experts who could retrieve all the information?

MR VISSER: I would say so.

UNKNOWN: No further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Visser, if I
understand your testimony correctly, you only contacted Mr Roodt after the 10th of April when you had come back from ...(intervention).

MR VISSER: No, I phoned him that evening after the news flash on the radio, and I was quite surprised, it was a prominent figure, I also, from the Security Police days, read a lot of information on Mr Hani, I knew who Mr Hani was, and I was quite shocked, I was really shocked.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Visser, you know that Mr Derby-Lewis was arrested only on the 17th of April?,

MR VISSER: He was arrested on the 17th of April, that's correct, I am aware of that.

MR PRINSLOO: And Mrs Derby-Lewis on the 21st of April?

MR VISSER: Yes, I am aware of that.

MR PRINSLOO: And at that point, there was no mention of a cheque for the payment of the legal, because they had not been arrested yet?

MR VISSER: At that point, I might be confusing my times, I remember, after I was arrested, or at least not arrested, but after I was approached by the police regarding the cheque, it could have been that I may have given my dates and times incorrectly, because Mr Clark, at that point, asked that we use the cheque for Mr Derby-Lewis's legal costs.

MR PRINSLOO: But you said that this only came to the fore after Mr Derby-Lewis's arrest?

MR VISSER: Yes.   At that point he might have spoken to Mr Roodt.

MR PRINSLOO: That is after his arrest and his release?

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Clark was arrested only after Mr and Mrs Derby-Lewis?

MR VISSER: I cannot respond to that, I don't remember specifically.   As I understood it, Mr Clark, I cannot remember whether or not he was arrested before or after them, or at which point, that I cannot remember.

MR PRINSLOO: So therefore Mr Clark, if he approached you, must have done so in his own capacity?   If Mr Clark had approached you, it would have been in his own capacity, because Mr Derby-Lewis, as well as Mrs Derby-Lewis were detained in terms of section 29?

MR VISSER: I am aware of that.

MR PRINSLOO: And you know what that means, they had no access to anyone, so Mr Derby-Lewis could not have made the request?

MR VISSER: No.

MR PRINSLOO: Just one moment please?   Just to understand it correctly, on the 30th of March, there was no talk of legal costs for Mr Derby-Lewis?

MR VISSER: Not at all.

MR PRINSLOO: And you are aware that the legal costs of Mr Derby-Lewis and his wife were paid by the Conservative Party, do you know about that?

WITNESS: Yes, I was aware thereof and that is what I said to Mr Clark at that point, that I was aware that a fund had been established, I don't recall whether it was with Volkskas Bank or with another bank, but there was an account number which was published in the press and donations could be deposited into that account and it's at that point that I said to Mr Clark from my side that I would encourage him not to apply those funds, because of individuals who thought much of Mr Derby-Lewis and I'm sure they would have made a number of donations and facilitated the payment of his legal costs.

MR PRINSLOO: Just one moment please?   Because of the noise, I would just like to re-establish something, the Freedom Front was established in May 1993, is that correct?

MR VISSER: I cannot remember exactly when the Freedom Front was established, that I cannot remember, it must have been -General Constand Viljoen's party was established on the evening of the election, that was in 1994.

MR PRINSLOO: I put it to you that Mrs Derby-Lewis and Mr Derby-Lewis gave no orders to anyone to use this fund that you were speaking of.   Do you have any comment?

MR VISSER: All I can say, and I would just like to rectify something, I have never met Mr Derby-Lewis or his wife in person.   There was talk of the application of the funds for Mr Derby-Lewis, I have not knowledge of that and so does Mr Roodt, but as I have said in my testimony, our order was that the funds not be used for that.

MR PRINSLOO: Personally you did not deposit the cheque, the stolen cheque?

MR VISSER: No.   And that is the reason why I have applied for amnesty, not because or for the deposit of the cheque, I was charged with the theft of the cheque, and at that point, I said that, I went to my peers and I said, "I am being charged with this and you need to sort this out, because otherwise I will have no other alternative but to apply for amnesty", in other words I would go to the authorities and tell them, "Look, this is what happened", and I did so, I went to Mr Clark before April 19..., before I submitted my application, I went to all the interested parties and told them what the situation was and what I was going to do, and that is what I did.

MR PRINSLOO: Just a moment please?   Mr Visser, I think that
you are making a mistake with your dates if you say that you became involved with the Freedom Front in 1993, because this organisation didn't exist then?