Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-01-25

MR BERGER: At the criminal trial you gave evidence and at page 3601, in the middle of the page, you were asked the following question.  I'm translating from the Afrikaans
"During June 1992 how many people were there living in the hostel who worked for Iscor?
and your answer was:
"According to the hostel report there are 410 people and there are still people whose particulars have been kicked out by the computer."
Do you remember that figure?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Thank you for reminding me.

MR BERGER: Now that 410, would that be Iscor workers?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that's how it should be.

MR BERGER: And were they all men?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct, yes I did not or should I say Iscor did not employ women.

MR BERGER: So all the women who were staying in the hostel were lovers or wives of the men who worked at Iscor?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Most of them yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger are you moving to another point?

MR BERGER: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I just wanted to - are you busy on the figures?

MR BERGER: Yes I was going to go on but please?

CHAIRPERSON: When you gave evidence in the high court did you base this figure on the computer printout?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And would the people that you described as refugees be also entered in the register or in the computer?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you keep a separate list of the refugees?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any independent recollection as to how many refugees were on the register?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes thank you Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Mthembu can you give an approximation of how many refugees were living at Kwamadala Hostel in June 1992?  Are we talking about another 400 or less?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I cannot remember how many there but there were many of them.

MR BERGER: And would it be correct to say they came from the townships of Sebokeng, Sharpeville and surrounding townships around Kwamadala?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And when you say many I assume there must have been hundred?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: So the hostel manager who had a record of residents in the hostel, would he have had a record of the refugees in the hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: They were known because I used to attend caucus meetings and state this and I was ultimately given the right to use my common discretion because I too went to Kwamadala as a refugee, I was not a resident there.

CHAIRPERSON: No but I think what counsel is asking you is whether the hostel manager, would he have kept a record of refugees?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I am not quite sure.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, you say in your further at page 161 in answer to question 11.4 and the question was
"Why was Boipatong selected as the target of the attack?"
and your answer was:
"I don't know but I was aware of ongoing problems between hostel dwellers and people of the Vaal Triangle."

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You confirm that answer?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Do you know that from 1990 the time when you came to the hostel all the way through to 1992, there were repeated attempts by various organisations in the Vaal including the Vaal Council of Churches to have Kwamadala Hostel close down because it was believed that Kwamadala Hostel was being used to harbour people who launched attacks on the residents of the Vaal.  Do you know about that?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes I know that.

MR BERGER: And you know that Iscor management said that they had no evidence that Kwamadala was being used as a haven for these people and they refused to close down the hostel.

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you know for example that the residents of Boipatong presented memoranda for example to the police calling for Kwamadala Hostel to be closed down because it was perceived to be a place from which attacks on them were being launched?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I heard about that but people who were fleeing were ferried or transported by the police in police vehicles and they would take these people to the hostel and we would accept them.  People as young as children and the aged were brought to the hostel by the police at some stage.

CHAIRPERSON: My recollection of the evidence is that most if not all of the people who stayed at the hostel came from somewhere in the township, the adjoining townships in the Vaal Triangle, is that right?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that before it was occupied it had not been used and Kwamadala Hostel had not been used by Iscor before?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: It was not in use yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So people who were running away from the adjoining townships and had been moved into the hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Iscor management subsequent to that decide to formalise the accommodation of people at the hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: They did not decide, we made a request because we did not want to lose our income.  We said that even though the place was old but then there would be an employment opportunity for one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but of course Iscor acceded to that request?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that how the hostel management committee was set up?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Directly yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now was it possible for a refugee for example to come and stay in the hostel without going through the formal procedure of approaching you and being allocated a room?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: It was not easy.

CHAIRPERSON: But was it possible?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes that would happen in my absence for example during the night shift if somebody was working at night he would gather the information and report back to me the following day and introduce the person to me at the same time.

CHAIRPERSON: But the report would only be made to you if people were prepared to make the report to you?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: If no report is made to you, you wouldn't know about the presence or otherwise of that person?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay so what I want to find out from you, is it possible that there were refugees who were at the hostel but who were not - whose names did not appear in your register?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes but there were very slim chances of such a thing happening.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Mthembu, I take it from your evidence that Iscor top management were well aware of the fact that you were admitting refugees into the hostel and that they tolerated that situation?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And Iscor management were well aware of the fact that there were hundreds of unemployed men with no means of income resident at Kwamadala Hostel in June of 1992?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Let me clarify this Mr Berger, I am not running away from your question but I would like to explain that each one individual who came to the hostel would be asked a question at the gate as to what he wanted and whom he knew and he would have to give us the address and the details of the person he was looking for and he would go inside and bring that person back but if not we would make whatever means possible to bring the visitor and the visitor together.

CHAIRPERSON: But if you could then come back to the question.  The question was, I can't recall whether it was put to you that was Iscor aware that there were hundreds of refugees who were staying at the hostel and who were not employed?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: They were aware of that?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.