Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-08

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: That is correct, it would have been Mr Froneman at Cullinan.  During the next day I congratulated Mr Froneman on behalf of the Boer Resistance Movement and I handed over the wings.

ADV PRINSLOO: What would this handing over of the wings have implied?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: It would have implied that he became a full member of the Boer Republican Army.

ADV PRINSLOO: This action of yours, was this something that you did for yourself or on whose behalf did you do it?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: I planted the bomb on behalf of the Boer Resistance Movement so that we could make the declaration or could show that the country could not simply hand over the country.

ADV PRINSLOO: Was there any personal gain out of this bomb for yourself?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: No, I gained nothing from this, no profit.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you have any personal grudge against anyone at the shop that caused you to plant this particular bomb?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: No, I had no personal grudge against anyone.

ADV PRINSLOO: When did you hear that there was in fact an explosion?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: This was on our way to the meeting at Rustenburg where we heard over the radio that a police officer was killed and that another police officer had been injured.

ADV PRINSLOO: Was it your intention that a police officer
should be injured or killed by the explosion?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: It was not the intention particularly to kill a police officer.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you keep in mind that if you were to plant a bomb, that a person or persons might be injured or killed?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: I did not plant the bomb with the intention of killing any particular persons, but as in any war there would be innocent persons in cross-fire.

ADV PRINSLOO: So you did keep in mind that someone might be injured or killed?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, I did keep this in mind.

ADV PRINSLOO: During the presentation of this case in the Supreme court, the State attorney Adv Regal du Toit, was this referred to as a political event or what was the case?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Mr du Toit did present the case as a political case.

ADV PRINSLOO: Can you remember in the judgement of His Honour Judge Els, whether he referred to the political ground?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: In his judgement, Judge Els did say that he could see that this was a political act.

ADV PRINSLOO: In Annexure B which is before you- in front of you ...

JUDGE WILSON: Are you moving on to something new now?  	We will take a short adjournment at this stage.

ADV PRINSLOO: As it pleases Mr Chairman.

MRS VAN DER WALT THE COMMISSION: .

ADV PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR BLACK: I apologise  Mr Chairman, I tried to attract my
learned friend's attention.  I simply wish to inform the Committee that Mr and Mrs Mayet are present, that is the owner of the shop in - commercial centre in question and they are quite satisfied that the hearings have proceeded in their absence, thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

ADV PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I am still referring to Exhibit A, the last page, page 10.  It is also your numbered page 10, Mr Chairman.  Mr Harmse, after you had heard over the radio that a policeman had been killed in this particular bomb explosion, how did you feel about this?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: I felt very bad when I heard the news that a policeman had been killed in the bomb explosion.

ADV PRINSLOO: The particular bomb, when you set it, would it go off very easily or would it be difficult, could you please tell the Committee what could set off the bomb?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: With any movement, as soon as the bomb was moved or the vibration of a large truck, would trigger the bomb.

JUDGE WILSON: As a matter of interest, what sort of detonator did you have?  I've heard of something I think, a B4?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Mr Chairman, I am not entire sure what type of detonator we used or what it is called.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was that Sir, also obtained from the mine?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, that is correct.  We obtained the detonators from the mine.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Harmse, did you obtain any reading matter regarding how to make a bomb and how to act in this regard?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, I did obtain reading matter from Mr
Vaughn Bands at that time.  It was called How to be a Good Terrorist, one of these books.  It explains exactly how a bomb can be made from various substances.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you have any other books or obtained any other books?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, there were others, I can't remember the exact names, it was something like Recipes for Bombs.

ADV PRINSLOO: These books, particular this book How to be a Good Terrorist, did it belong to the Organisation or how did you obtain this?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: That is the book issued by the ANC to their people in order to make bombs easily and cheaply.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Harmse, I wish to refer now to Exhibit B, Appendix B, page 11, Mr Chairman.  Do you have it in front of you Mr Harmse?  In the original application which you submitted to the Committee, paragraph 10(A) where the question is "state the political objective you wish to achieve", is it correct that - and I refer to Exhibit B, you set it out in that Exhibit B?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: That is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: And it is also cross-referred to in certain respects in Exhibit A to which you have already referred?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: As far as question 10(b) is concerned, your motivation, the reason why such deeds or miscarriages were done and the deeds with relation to which you committed these deeds, it is question 10(b), Exhibit B, again. Were that had as a political objective if I refer to your original application question 11(a), do you have it in front of you? Was the deed the mission, miscarriage, etc, done or carried out with the approval of the particular
organisation,liberation movement, government body, etc, you answered no.  Why did you answer no?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Because at that stage I had not obtained legal council and I didn't want to mention people's names at that stage.

ADV PRINSLOO: Do you affirm the correctness of Exhibits A and B and then also your plea Exhibit D, submitted to the Committee?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, I do.

ADV PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV PRINSLOO: .

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, with the permission of the Committee, my learned friends and I have discussed the presentation of evidence and we have agreed that Mr Froneman's evidence will now also be presented, prior to my asking any questions.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, before we come to you, I wondered if Mrs van der Walt wanted to ask any questions.

UNKNOWN: There is just a single question which I would like to gain clarity on.  Mr Harmse in your testimony you stated that when you attended the meeting in Rustenburg where various instructions were given to you, that meeting was only for officers, is that correct?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: But according to Mr Froneman, he was also at that meeting.  Is that so?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: Can you please explain, he was not an officer at that stage, what happened there?

PIETER JOHANNES HARMSE: Quite a number of the Boer Resistance Movement members attended the meeting, but this particular
meeting was intended for officers although other members were also present, who did not join in the meeting itself.

UNKNOWN: Then it is correct if Mr Froneman would say that he was there but that he was not in the meeting itself, that he did not sit in the meeting? ... (tape ends)

JUDGE WILSON: Do you agree that we reserve any questioning by Mr Black till after ...

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Right, very well.

LEO HENDRIK FRONEMAN: (sworn states)

UNKNOWN: Mr Froneman, when were you born?