Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-29

MS MTANGA: Okay.  Further on in your statement, page 39(b), you stated that
"I had to leave (that is the meeting) before it was over because I was rushing to tell the group I'd left behind, that the meeting had commenced.  However, whilst I was there the chief did not speak about political issues."
Do you confirm this is the position?  At the time you were at the meeting the chief did not discuss any politics?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: I didn't say that I left the meeting because I wanted to go and report to the ANC, what I said was I left the meeting whilst it was still on, before it was over.

MS MTANGA: Mr Shange, I'm reading from your application, your amnesty application, and this is what you have stated in your application.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: The people who were in that meeting did say or raise some political issues, it wasn't the chief himself, but the chief only said that everyone in that area was supposed to be an IFP member.

MS MTANGA: When you say "in that area", which area are you referring to?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Mashiwane and Nkwale.

MS MTANGA: Were all the people in Mashiwane or were the majority of people in Mashiwane and Nkwale, in your opinion, IFP people?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: IFP is the majority.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Where did you live, Mr Shange?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Mashiwane.

MS MTANGA: How did you know about the political situations in Nkwale, if you lived in Mashiwane?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Nkwale and Mashiwane is sort of one area, one can walk from Mashiwane to Nkwale.  The difference is between the schools, one school is called Mashiwane and the school is called Nkwale, but it's almost one area.

MS MTANGA: Can you tell me, prior to this incident, prior to the chief calling a meeting, were there political tensions between IFP and ANC people in both Mashiwane and Nkwale?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: At Mashiwane, IFP and ANC were in conflict, because IFP supporters from Mashiwane did say that they didn't want ANC members or supporters there in the  area.

MS MTANGA: What about the Nkwale area?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: At that time the Nkwale area was quiet, but when we were attacked at Mashiwane, also people from Nkwale were attacked, ANC members were attacked.  That is why we all ran away from Nkwale and from Mashiwane.

MS MTANGA: The bus you attacked, which people, or people from which place were using the bus that you attacked?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: People from Nkwale and Mashiwane.

MS MTANGA: Is that all the people that were using the bus?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, only people from Mashiwane and Nkwale.  The bus would leave Wittlespruit and pass Nkwale and Mashiwane will be the last stop.

MS MTANGA: Were there ANC people in Mashiwane, besides your group, besides your group who had gone to hide in the bushes?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, there were other people, people who ran away from Mashiwane, who were attacked by IFP

MS MTANGA: Were there ANC people in Nkwale?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, there were, they also left Nkwale.

MS MTANGA: Mr Shange, the victims in this matter mostly came from Nkwale and they have attended this hearing and they will put it to you that the people from Nkwale were never involved in politics, it was a quiet area.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: I don't think that's true.

MS MTANGA: Why do you say so?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: We used to stay in a forest nearby Nkwale.  When we were attacked one time we were residing at Nkwale.  Other people left Nkwale, who were residents of Nkwale, left Nkwale because they were attacked by others from Nkwale.  In other words, the ANC ran away from IFP supporters, and they were from Nkwale.

MS MTANGA: Mr Shange, the victims will put it to you that the only incident of violence at Nkwale that they experienced was your bus attack, there's never been political violence in their area.  What do you say to this?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: It is not true, Mr Mtolo was killed in Nkwale and he was a resident of Nkwale.

MS MTANGA: Do you know who killed Mr Mtolo?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: People who were there.  I don't know them personally, but Sonny did see Mr Gumede.

MS MTANGA: Was Mr Gumede in the bus that you attacked?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, he was.

MS MTANGA: Why didn't you kill him?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: He ran away, he escaped.

MS MTANGA: Mr Shange, in your statement, marked here as Exhibit A, you said the reason that you went to attack the bus was to kill Mr Gumede, is that so?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: It wasn't the main reason, we were going to attack the bus to scare the IFP supporters who were staying at Nkwale.

MS MTANGA: You further stated in your statement, Exhibit A, that you could not attack Mr Gumede at his house because he harboured IFP people.  Did you see these people that he harboured?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, in his house there were too many IFP members and when we attacked the bus they also came.  They were from his house, or nearby his house.

MS MTANGA: Mr Gumede is going to testify, and he will be testifying to the fact that he lived Nkwale, he never belonged to the IFP, and he never harboured IFP people.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: That will be a mistake.

MS MTANGA: Further on, in your evidence that you gave here today, you stated that when you walked into the bus just before you attacked them, you warned the women and the children to walk out.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: That's true.

MS MTANGA: Did you do this on your own initiative or did somebody ask you to let them out?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: This is what we've decided as a group, the group which was going to attack the bus.

MS MTANGA: Mrs Ndlovu or Ms Ndlovu, Anna Ndlovu was one of the women on the bus and she'll be giving evidence that she is the one who requested you to let them out, to let all women and children out, what do you say to that?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: That won't be true, we decided and before we fired a single shot we told the women and the children to alight the bus.

MS MTANGA: You also testified that before you fired shots at people you told all the people who were not from Nkwale to leave the bus.

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: Yes, I did say so when all the females had alighted the bus and we let them leave the bus and we didn't shoot at that time.

MS MTANGA: Mr Shange, one of the people in that bus that you shot at was Douglas Mahaiko Duma, who was neither a resident of Mashiwane nor Nkwale.  If you had said this, why wouldn't he have left when somebody had gone out?  Why would he have been injured in that bus if you really uttered the words that they must leave, you wanted Nkwale and Mashiwane people?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: I think he got injured because he was scared maybe to leave when I told them to leave, because the person who left wasn't injured.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

MR LAX: Just to clarify this, are you talking about Mr Douglas Mahaiko Duma?

MS MTANGA: Yes.

MR LAX: Okay.

MS MTANGA: He gave a statement, but he's now deceased.

MR LAX: No, no, I see him in the indictment as one of the people who formed part of Count 9.  I just wanted to make sure.  I didn't hear you correctly in your pronunciation of it.  I was being absolutely careful who I was referring to.

MS MTANGA: Okay.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR WILLS: No re-examination thank you, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Shange, perhaps you can explain something for us, why was this man called Master Shange?  Why was his name Master Shange, what was the Master all about?

IZAK MHLAKOLA SHANGE: When I first knew him, this is the name I was told.  I don't know why he was given this nickname.