Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-02

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.  Today we have two matters on the role, we will be commencing with the application of Mr Dlamini.  Before we start, I would just like to quickly introduce the Committee.
	We are all members of the Amnesty Committee of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.  On my left is Mr Jonas Sibanyoni.  He is an attorney from Pretoria.  On my right is Mr Ilan Lax, he is an attorney from Pietermaritzburg, and I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge from the High Court in Transkei.
	I would just like to ask the legal representatives to kindly place themselves on record.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson and members of the Committee, I am John Wills, attorney from Pietermaritzburg.  I represent Mr Thulasizwe Raphael Dlamini.
	I am representing Mr Dlamini through the auspices of the Legal Aid Board.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS THABETE: I am Ms Thabela Thabete, the Evidence Leader in Cape Town, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I call Mr Dlamini to testify.

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Just before we start Mr Wills, if I could just inform the people attending the hearing that the proceedings are all, all the proceedings are simultaneously interpreted and to benefit from the interpretation, you have to have one of these devices.  They are available from the Sound Technician or the person in front of the hall.
	The translation will be into English and Zulu, channels 2 and 3 respectively.  Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Dlamini, you have applied for amnesty be filling out the form, the prescribed annexure, Form 1, and you filled this out on the 8th of May 1997 at Ixopo, is that correct?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Do you confirm the contents of this statement?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Sometime later, a certain person who was working for the Truth Commission approached you, and asked you to make a further statement, and this person was a policeman by the name of Mbatha and he took a statement from you which you signed under oath, in August 1998, the 18th of August 1998, is that correct?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Do you confirm the contents of this statement?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes, I do confirm it.

MR WILLS: And the purpose of making this statement, was in order to supplement the details that you had given in your application, is that right?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Whereabouts were you born Mr Dlamini?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I was born at Springvale in Ixopo.

MR WILLS: Where is that?  In the Ixopo area?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes, Springvale.

MR WILLS: You joined the ANC some time, can you tell us when that was?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I joined the UDF in 1982 and I joined the ANC in 1989 when I was still residing in Johannesburg.

MR WILLS: Now, the period for which you - the period in which you committed the acts in respect of which you are applying for amnesty, was after 1990.
	Can you tell us what the conditions were like in your home area during this time?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: There was a lot of violence, we had a problem with the IFP, who were actually killing and attacking people in the area that I was living in.
	They would shoot at us from a very long distance.  At some point, they would burn people's homes, steal cattle, shoot at old people and children.  Even in the town area of Ixopo, the old people could not go and get their pension money, because they were not free to move around in town.
	At that point, SDU's were formed.  The community decided that SDU's should be then formed.

MR WILLS: You say that the IFP were attacking people, which people were they attacking?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: ANC people.

MR WILLS: Were you still at this stage residing in the Springvale area?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: No, I was now at Plainhill, at the Noqwega area of Ixopo, that is where I moved in 1990.

MR WILLS: This area, Plainhill, is this a ward of the Ixopo area?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: It is a rural area of Ixopo.

MR LAX: Mr Wills, we have heard about Noqwega already, so we know where the area is.  We have had a previous applicant who came from that area.  It is fine.

MR WILLS: The Plainhill area that you lived in, what was the political party, what was the main political affiliation of the residents in that area?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: There were members of the ANC, but there were members of the IFP in the area.

MR WILLS: You said that the community decided to establish an SDU, what was your position in regard to this SDU?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: They were desperately needed, because people were no longer sleeping in their homes, they had fled to Umzimkulu, their houses were being burgled and goods stolen from their homes.
	The SDU's were needed.  There was no free movement in the Ixopo area, it had been demarcated into two.

MR WILLS: I am asking you Mr Dlamini, were you appointed to serve any particular role within the SDU?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the Committee what that was?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I was the Commander of the SDU's in my area.
	I would normally consult with everyone before we actually carried out any activity.

MR WILLS: Yes, and who were the other members of your SDU, if you can recall their names, please give them to the Committee.

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Those that I can still remember were Gacha Denza, Bongeni Nkabani, myself and others.  In our area there were different wards, therefore people from other areas could come to assist for a short while, but this did not happen all the time.

MR WILLS: Yes, I am going to get on to the issue of the other SDU's in the area, but I just want you to concentrate on the SDU which you commander at this stage.
	Did you have any firearms in this SDU?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: No, but we had home made guns, or "uxashu".

MR WILLS: You, yourself, did you ever acquire a firearm?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us how you acquired that firearm?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Because of the situation in the area, where we did not have firearms and Inkatha was attacking us day and night, I was compelled to actually remove a pistol, a 9 mm pistol from one coloured person, so that we could have one firearm in the area.

MR WILLS: What do you mean remove?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: When cars entered the area, or came through in the area, we would check exactly who they were, whether they had come to attack or maybe they had come to seek information on what was happening.
	We will search the cars and when the man came out of the car, I saw his gun on the holster, and I just removed it because I needed it and we also needed the firearm in the area.

MR WILLS: You mentioned earlier that there were other areas and from your statement it is clear that there were other SDU's in the area.  You have mentioned that there was Pat Mbakazi.  What was his position?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I knew Pat Mbakazi as a person who was very loyal to the ANC.  Although we had not discussed his affiliation at length, I understood him to be a member of the ANC, because he would normally assist ANC members who were in need.
	Therefore I knew him to be a member of an SDU.

MR WILLS: Which SDU was he a member of?  Where did that SDU come from?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: From Donnybrook.

MR WILLS: And you also mention a person by the name of Mnini Dlamini and where did he come from?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: From Top, an area very close to where I lived.

MR WILLS: And did he have any relationship with any SDU, and if so, which SDU?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: He was very close to mine and also another one from Plain and also the one at Top.