Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm not blaming you for the wasting of time, I'm just saying that we have lost a lot of time and so let's see how far we can go, let's see how much we can do.

MR PRINSLOO: Can we just have a brief adjournment then Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

JEREMY CRONIN: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please proceed.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Cronin, people involved in Vula - there were certain members of Vula arrested by the police, is that correct?- like Sepiwe Njanda, Mr Mac Maharaj and there were other members arrested as well, is that correct?

JEREMY CRONIN: Some were arrested yes, and some died in that detention process.

MR PRINSLOO: I beg your pardon, some did what?

JEREMY CRONIN: Some actually died while in detention as has been revealed recently in the TRC process.

MR PRINSLOO: And is it correct that the police unravelled the secret code they used and brought to the fore as to what they were supposed to do and the police alleged they wanted to cause insurrection in the country, is that correct?

JEREMY CRONIN: I was not directly involved in Vula but I certainly remember press reports at the time.

MR PRINSLOO: Those were the allegation, is that correct Mr Cronin?

JEREMY CRONIN: There were certainly allegations to that effect in - I think, 1991, yes.

MR PRINSLOO: So, in the minds of the public, it was - as far as they were concerned, these people were not sincere in negotiations as they were planning insurrection?

JEREMY CRONIN: In the minds of which public Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: And this arrest of ...[intervention]

JEREMY CRONIN: Sorry, I'm not clear as to your question, you continuously refer to: "the public" and I have a problem with that.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Cronin, the public that reads the media.

JEREMY CRONIN: Well, I would say that many members of the public who read the media, would have dismissed this as disinformation as they were asked to by the leadership of the ANC and SACP - who immediately reacted to these so-called police revelations by saying that: "Here again we have an example of disinformation" that: "Yes, there was and underground structure, yes it was called Vula" but that it was involved in planning insurrection was completely wrong.
	That information was available to the public as well and I would say that a large number of the public - certainly those who would follow the leadership of ANC ...[indistinct], would have given credence to that interpretation and that others would have given different interpretations is of course eminently possible.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Cronin, the arrest of these people took place in July 1990, is that correct?

JEREMY CRONIN: I haven't come prepared for - but if you say it was in July 1990, then that is possible, yes.

MR PRINSLOO: But if that's the date, you will not dispute it - July 1990?

JEREMY CRONIN: No, I'm not going to dispute that.

MR PRINSLOO: So that was well after the unbanning of the ANC?

JEREMY CRONIN: Well after the unbanning of the ANC, the police arrested elements of Vula including some people who were functioning openly in the negotiations process, yes.

MR PRINSLOO: No further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

MS VAN DER WALT: I'm not sure Mr Chair, whether the audience wish to make further contributions but if that is not so then I have a further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Just try and ignore them.

MS VAN DER WALT: I tried very hard.

CHAIRPERSON: Do carry on please.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Cronin, you were referred to page 43 of R5, the last paragraph I think - if I could just get the document, I just wish to ascertain whether I have the right document - paragraph.
	Just a moment please Mr Chair. 
It is page 43, the second paragraph.  Mr Prinsloo dealt with this paragraph with you and you have it, is that correct? - page 43.  I would like to put it to you that you make a statement that during the negotiations there were negotiations above the table while under the table people were kicking at you, is that correct?

JEREMY CRONIN: Yes, absolutely.

MS VAN DER WALT: And if one were to look at Mr Hani's record of serving in the military wing of the ANC, a great leader who gave many instructions and commands to kill people here in the Republic or South Africa and who was trained in Russia and who even just before his death was still a member of MK - in other words, a military man, not an ordinary man in the street and with his knowledge of what could happen - you said that yourself, over 40 years the struggle was waged, how then is it possible that a man like Mr Hani who knows that they are being kicked under the table, would go and lay down arms while this is happening - that isn't possible Mr Cronin?

JEREMY CRONIN: Well, it might be difficult for you to get your mind around that concept but the fact is that Chris Hani joined the political struggle first and foremost, - the struggle didn't last for 40 years, it lasted for several centuries in this country against colonial occupation - people like Chris Hani understood that it was essentially a political struggle.  He took up - as he explain quite carefully in the document that I've submitted - and I'll refer you so that we're clear about this matter, he says on the bottom of page four
"When we finally launched an armed struggle we were not abandoning our quest for peace, we were pursuing that quest in the most effective way left to us by an ...[indistinct] and brutal regime.  	Over the decades deploying mass struggle, armed struggle, underground work and building international solidarity, we finally forced the White minority regime to negotiate with our liberation movement and that was our victory.
In the interests of speeding up the negotiations process, in August 1990 we announced that we were suspending our armed struggle.  Our strategic deployment of violence was put on hold"
That I think, helps to explain to you - as difficult as you may find it to be believe, why Chris Hani had laid up his arms.  The fact that he was able to be assassinated in the middle of what was basically a White suburb on a Saturday morning, I think is another indication that this was not someone pursuing a military career or a military offensive - he was engaged in normal political activity seeking a peaceful solution to our country.  That may be difficult for you to imagine but that was certainly what he was doing.

MS VAN DER WALT: While he knew that he was being kicked under the table, I would like to state to you that a man like Mr Chris Hani did not lay down arms and history - since 1990 until 1994, proved that the arms of Umkhonto weSizwe had not been laid down because there was much violence which had been caused by Umkhonto weSizwe and not just by the security forces.

CHAIRPERSON: That is a political statement, it's not a question is it?

MS VAN DER WALT: I am stating it to the witness in the same way that he made certain utterances which were also of a political nature but history proved that there was violence but I will leave my political statement there.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not stopping you, I didn't see what your question was that is why I asked you, I was expecting you to now put a question to him.

MS VAN DER WALT: I stated to Mr Cronin, Mr Chair, that Mr Hani did not lay down arms and I'm saying it on Mr Cronin's own evidence that they were kicked under the table and I wish to state to him that arms had not been laid down as he submits to the Commission.