Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

ADV BOSMAN: You did mention that you told him, let me just see, if you'll bear with me for a moment Madam Chair, that you told him certain things.  Did you tell him anything about confessions?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I do not understand your question.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you tell him anything about confessions people had made?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I did not tell him.  I only told him that one of them is dead and the other one survived, and we separated.

ADV BOSMAN: So if I tell you that Mr Khumalo says that you told him that Elsie confessed, or Hapile rather had confessed, to being a spy for the IFP would you say you did not tell him that?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: The issue of confession was not mentioned during the reporting.  When we met the second time, that was when I gave him a full report.  He might have mixed the two issues.

ADV BOSMAN: Why did you not lead this confession when I asked you whether you had told him anything about confessions?  Why did you not remember that you had told him about confessions at another stage?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I did not mention it because I thought you were asking me about the first time we met.  That is why I did not mention it.

ADV BOSMAN: And it would appear to me as though you had given two orders for the killing of Hapile and Elsie.  Is that correct?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: You gave the one order after the grenade had been thrown into the car, is that right?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: And why was it then necessary to issue a second order in exactly the same terms?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Because the, my soldiers, were getting very lazy and I wanted to remind them that they had taken an oath.

ADV BOSMAN: And the first order, had you given that before the general order was issued, or after?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: After the general order.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Mr Mhlongo, you told us that Mr Radebe joined your unit after June, you said after he completed his training, which was in June, is that right?  June 1993?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: He joined my unit before unit.  He went for a course and came back and started operating in June.

MR LAX: Yes, when did he join your unit?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: When did he join the unit to operate, or what are you referring to?  I do not get your question.

MR LAX: Your earlier evidence was that you recruited him in about June.  You sent him on a month's course to Sasolburg.  When he came back he started operating with your unit as a 2IC.  That was your evidence.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: So then why are you arguing with me when I say to you and ask you whether he started with your unit in June or just after June?  You said no he joined much earlier.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I did not get your question, but now I have it.

MR LAX: He started just after June sometime, after his training, correct?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: He arrived in June from the training.

MR LAX: So he must have joined your unit just before that, probably in July?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: In June.

MR LAX: I beg your pardon, probably in May.  Just before June, just before he went for his training.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

MR LAX: Well you see his evidence to us was that he joined your unit late 1992, early 1993, and he was already at that time 2IC.  Are you making a mistake, or is he maybe making a mistake?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: He made a mistake.  He became my 2IC after he went for a crash course.

MR LAX: Now this crash course was a specialised training, was it?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was.

MR LAX: What did it consist of?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: There was a political class, there was a firearm class.

MR LAX: Yes.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: There were rules on attack.

MR LAX: So it was a full training as a commando?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: No.

MR LAX: Was it just a full training as an SDU member?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

MR LAX: It wasn't an orientation programme was it?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was not an orientation course.

MR LAX: Well you see that's what Mr Radebe told us it was.  He said he went on an orientation course.  Is he making another mistake?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: He made a mistake, because we dealt with him physically.

MR LAX: What do you mean you dealt with him physically?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: He was aware that it was a training, it was not just an orientation.

MR LAX: Now, you told us that there was a second briefing that you gave Bonga Khumalo.  A much fuller briefing.  When did that happen?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: After Hapile's death we were on the run, I took cover, he was always, he was also under cover, but there were  times when I appeared.

MR LAX: The question was when was it?  I'm not interested in whether you were on the run or not.  When was this briefing?  Simple question.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was two months later, after the incident.

MR LAX: So that would have been in October 1993?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I would say so, yes.

MR LAX: And who was present at this briefing that you gave him?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: There was no-one, it was myself and him.

MR LAX: But you see he didn't tell us anything about the second briefing with you.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Maybe he forgot, that's his mistake.  We did meet again.

MR LAX: What did you tell him at that second briefing?  I want you to try and remember very carefully what you told him.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I told him that my soldiers were responsible for the death of Hapile, and Elsie survived, and I told him that it was a blunder that Elsie survived, and after, upon realising that they made a mistake by letting Elsie survive they also went under cover, so it was upon my shoulders to call a gathering and meet with them.

MR LAX: Who is them?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I'm referring to John Radebe and Fani Mkhwanazi.

MR LAX: And when did you meet with them?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I met with them, it was in 1994.

MR LAX: I'm asking you what you told your commander, Bonga Khumalo, in 1993.  How could you have him anything you got from them in 1994?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I met with Bonga in October of 1993, I am not mistake, and as a unit commander I was accounting, telling him that the people responsible for such an act were under, were in my unit.  And I was accounting on their behalf because they had, they were not present.

MR LAX: The point is, you went on to explain that you knew what they had told, you were able to report because you had met with these guys and they had explained to you what happened.  That was your evidence.  And then when I asked you when did you meet with them, you said it was in 1994.  Do you understand my puzzlement with you?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Chairperson, my apologies.  I said the person who came to report to me was Bopipo, not the people who committed the act.  The act was committed by Mkhwanazi and Radebe, but the person who was with them came to report to me and he is Bopipo.

MR LAX: What exactly, I'm asking this for the second time, did you tell Bonga Khumalo, when you briefed him fully about this matter?  So far you've told us that all you told him was that your unit was responsible, that it was a blunder that Elsie survived, that's all you told him.  Is that right?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

MR LAX: You're quite sure about that?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

MR LAX: So when did you tell him about the confession?  Your evidence earlier was that at the second briefing you told him about the confession.  You didn't tell him about any confession, isn't that right?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was spread all over that before they died they had confessed, so he knew it himself.

MR LAX: You told us that you told him about it, not that it was known in the township.  Either you told him or you didn't.  Just give me a straight answer, please.