Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

MR HEWIT: Let's deal specifically with this area that you might, being kind to you, find ambiguous.  We want to know whether in your entire career as the supreme Commander of the Inkatha military wing as you put it, other people other than Mr Yamile was so grateful that after the killing that you orchestrated or committed, performed, gave you money?
	Were there other people, other than the Zazi Khuzwayo incident, where you received money?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I wouldn't remember that because when they performed these incidents, or when they did these deeds, they wouldn't come to me and tell me that they had received these gifts or not.  It could happen that they did, and did receive payment or gifts.

MR HEWIT: No, I am talking about you receiving gifts, not other people, I am talking about you.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I have never been
 given by an IFP superior for that person to tell me to kill somebody and promise to remunerate me with so much money.

MR HEWIT: Well, your answer deals with an IFP superior giving you money afterwards.  I want to know whether any person whether IFP superior, whether IFP subordinate to you or whatever this person is, I want to know whether you have ever been paid money by way of thanks or gratitude by someone after someone has been killed, other than this Zazi Khuzwayo incident?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR HEWIT: Have you ever been given gifts or presents by any persons after someone has been killed?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Except for Yamile, I don't remember any other person.

MR HEWIT: And did Yamile only ever give you money for the murder of Zazi Khuzwayo?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Except for the one that I have mentioned, but he never promised us the money beforehand.

MR HEWIT: Is the answer yes, you have received money from Yamile for other services rendered?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I don't really understand the question.

MR HEWIT: We know that you received money from Yamile, a couple of hundred rand, for killing Zazi Khuzwayo, right?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct, he was grateful.

MR HEWIT: Did you ever receive any money from anybody else for doing your duties?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, that is not so.

MR HEWIT: Was that the one and only time that Mr Yamile ever paid you?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: Well, please have a look at page 247 of your affidavit.  Now, I want you to look at paragraph 14 in your affidavit.  They deal with an entirely different incident to the Zazi Khuzwayo incident, do you agree with me?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: They deal with an incident with the strange title of the Clover Remark.  Correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: In paragraph 14.3, there you state we drove back to Yamile's house and reported the shooting to him.  Do you see that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I do.

MR HEWIT: Then you say he, being Yamile, was pleased about this and again rewarded us with a cash amount of a couple of hundred rand.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: Do you confirm that that is another occasion now that Mr Yamile gave you a couple of hundred rand for doing your duties for which you received a salary any way?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: So was your earlier answer to this Committee, when you were asked whether Yamile only ever gave you a couple of hundred rand for the killing of Zazi Khuzwayo, was that untrue?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It was the truth.

MR HEWIT: Why did you say that was the only occasion?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I was talking about Zazi's death.

MR HEWIT: Yes?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yamile as we were staying at his house, whatever he did for him, he gave you money for that.  Not because he was buying you to do something for him later on, but that was in his nature.

MR HEWIT: Presumably like the money you received from him for killing Zazi Khuzwayo, you also didn't mention this to any of your so-called superiors, like Mr M.Z. Khumalo, the Planning Committee people in the IFP?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, I did not.

MR HEWIT: Any reason for that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: The reason is that if somebody gives me something, I didn't see a reason to go to M.Z. Khumalo and tell him and so and so had given me so much money because I didn't see how that concerned him, it was my business.

MR HEWIT: Presumably Mr Yamile knew that the other Caprivi trainees were receiving salaries in any event for their services, is that right?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Can you repeat the question please?

MR HEWIT: Did Mr Yamile know that you and other Caprivi's were receiving a salary?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, he did.

MR HEWIT: So he just decided on his own back, to pay you extra over and above your salaries, for these functions?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, it was from his own liking.

MR HEWIT: Right.  Now you told us yesterday that before you took over as Supreme Commander of the Inkatha Military Wing, that it was, that the violence perpetrated by Inkatha people was completely misdirected, it had no useful purpose, it involved the killing of even innocent people who were not even UDF, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: We are talking about a certain area, not generally.

MR HEWIT: All right, let's go back to that, which particular area was this where there were certain problems of undisciplined violence or not properly directed violence?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I was speaking about Hammersdale, Mpumalanga township.

MR HEWIT: All right, just refresh our memories, what was the position that existed in Hammersdale and Mpumalanga, did you say?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: What was the position that existed as far as Inkatha was concerned in Mpumalanga and Hammersdale before you came in?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: There was fighting.

MR HEWIT: By Inkatha people?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is true.

MR HEWIT: What was wrong with the way that the Inkatha people were fighting in Mpumalanga and Hammersdale before you came in?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I explained yesterday that when I arrived there, Zakhile Mkehle was the man in charge and because of the way he ruled Mpumalanga, he assumed that Mpumalanga was an Inkatha area only for Inkatha members.
	Any other organisation was not allowed to exist, but unfortunately an organisation did emerge and he tried to get rid of that organisation, but without success.
	That is the situation I found in the area.  But he is the one who was responsible for killing people, the burning down of houses of people being suspected of being UDF members in the Mpumalanga area at that time.  That is what I was saying.

MR HEWIT: Yes, but now what was wrong with that from your point of view that necessitated your intervention?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That was not policy at the time, that people should be killed the way he was doing because his organisation was talking peace.  He should have been exemplary and show that he means peace, such that if a person was not at war with him, there was no reason for him to fight that person.

MR HEWIT: Are you saying that this person was killing innocents?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: As I have mentioned before, if there was one person in a certain house, that person will be responsible for the suffering of all the other members of the household.
	If they had managed to flee without having killing somebody, they would burn the house down, but a person that would really be a problem in the house, would only be just one person, maybe the son or the father or the mother.