Human Rights Violation Hearings — Duduza — 1997-02-07

PAULOS NKONDO: There were many, I think about 10 of them standing and seated.  Some were in the passage.

MR LEWIN: Why did you think they might be ticket inspectors?  Was it form the way they were dressed?

PAULOS NKONDO: Yes.

MR LEWIN: So did they have coats or cloaks, particular sort of coats?

PAULOS NKONDO: They had dust coats when they got into the train and that led me to think that they were the ticket examiners.  When the train took off from Germiston suddenly the people changed and I was so surprised because in my mind they were ticket examiners and suddenly now they were carrying-,

MR LEWIN: The weapons that they  carried, you say they were knives and pangas, that was all was it? They didn't have guns?

PAULOS NKONDO: From the other coach I heard a gun shot and when I was trying to peep and look to see what was happening I just received this bang on my head and that was from a panga.

MR LEWIN: They were spread throughout the whole train were they, they weren't just in your one coach?

PAULOS NKONDO: Yes they were all over the train, not necessarily confined to our coach, and we were sitting down with other women and they were standing.  Some were standing on the other side of the coach and in the passage.

MR LEWIN: I mean it's obviously an absolutely hideous event, this whole thing that was happening with the train going, was there no way that you could stop the train?

PAULOS NKONDO: There was no way absolutely, because the train was in motion and you could not stop it.

MR LEWIN: It's very difficult for those of us who weren't there to understand how hideous it was.  When you were pushed out of the train, had other people in your coach already been killed?

PAULOS NKONDO: Yes there were.  They were killed and they were thrown out of the coaches. When they were thrown out of the train I therefore decided that maybe I should do something.  I stood up on top of the sieve so that they could not chop me any further and they came directly to me and I had no opportunity to escape.

MR LEWIN: And you say in the hospital you met, was it two other people who survived.  Do you know how many people were killed in that particular incident?

PAULOS NKONDO: There were many. Many people from the place where I came from were killed, people from the location were the victims.

MR LEWIN: And there were none of you who were attacked who were armed in any way that you could defend yourselves?

PAULOS NKONDO: No one was armed.

MR LEWIN: Did they give any reason for the attack?

PAULOS NKONDO: No reason was given, except one person who came asking where I came from who never responded when I  answered him.  The next thing I experienced were blows from left, right and centre and heard gunshots in other coaches.  I said to myself that I must be on the wrong train.  I was then severely beaten and pushed out of the train.

MR LEWIN: Thank you Mr Nkondo, I'll pass you back to the Chairperson.

MS SEROKI: When you were asked where you came from, did you tell them where you come from or did you simply say that you came from a shack.

PAULOS NKONDO: I told them that I came from Mandela.

MS SEROKI: And what did they say after you said that?

PAULOS NKONDO: He never said anything further.   He only asked where I stayed and I told him that I stay in Natalspruit at Mandela Section and that was it, he left me.

MS SEROKI: But in your statement you say they said, this is not the Congress Train?

PAULOS NKONDO: Maybe I'm getting confused now also because it's been quite some time since this event.  I think I went into a wrong coach, you know, simply thinking that it's a train.

MS SEROKI: But tell us, you think those trains had different coaches, one coach belonging to the Congress and the other belonging to some other kind of group.  Couldn't you just go in any coach?

PAULOS NKONDO: Yes there were coaches that were described as Inkatha coaches and the others were described as ANC coaches. Now that one is naive who will just get into any coach.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkondo, thank you for coming.  I think that in the past these events that happened on the train, these train killings, that they were presented as just simply conflicts between different political organisations or faction fighting, part of the black on black violence.  It was the Inkatha Freedom Party, it was the ANC. In fact the incident you're speaking about, there were 11 people that day who were affected by this train violence and people thrown off the train and people attacked.  But what is beginning to emerge from our own investigations and from amnesty applications that are beginning to come into the Commission, is that these issues are a lot more complex.  That yes there may certainly have been political strife, political conflict, but it's also beginning to emerge that there was involvement of different sections of the army, covert operations, names that have emerged like Battalion 32 involved in some of the train violence, some Vlakplaas operatives, military people, and we're hoping that soon a clear picture will emerge of what was actually happening and that with more and more people coming forward to apply for amnesty and more and more people coming forward and the Truth Commission having this full disclosure, maybe we'll be able to find answers to some of these questions, because I'm sure one of the things that is of concern to you is to know who did this and why, that you would like to have answers to some of these questions.
 So thank you for your statement, we have it and some of your needs, particularly what you experienced,  injuries which you experienced, the psychological impact that this had on you, these issues will be followed up through Reparations and Rehabilitation Committee, and as we said over again, at the end of the life of the Commission, recommendations are going to be made to parliament, so you certainly will be hearing from the Commission in the future.   Thank you for coming and sharing your experiences with us.