Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Khanyile, in your evidence  you have stated quite clearly that you saw amongst others Skwayi and the Zulu person whom you found burning the Luthuli house.  You gave chase after them and in the process you fired at  one another.  So you knew that there were three people inside that house.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I saw two getting into the house, but I am not sure about the third one.

SISI KHAMPEPE: It was in the same house where Peter Nqobo came from?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: Mr Khanyile, do you believe that the people who were shot, that is the two women and the children, were the ones who were shooting at you?

UNKNOWN: No, they were not the ones who were shooting at me.

MS THABETHE: Did you managed to shoot Mr Zulu and Mr Nqobo?
The people you were aiming at?

UNKNOWN: I was not able to shoot them because I was outside the house, they were inside and I was just returning fire thinking that I would hit them or I would be able to get one of them or two of them ... (CHANGE OVER TO TAPE 2A) ...  It was the Luthuli household.
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CHAIRPERSON: /...
MS THABETHE	211	MR M H KHANYILE

CHAIRPERSON: ... was the Luthuli household being burnt?

UNKNOWN: It was very early in the morning, I think it was dawn.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was shortly after that incident that the trouble or the murder or the killings at Nqobo's house took place.

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: Mr Khanyile ....(intervention).

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Ms Thabethe, you seem to be jutting in and out.  I don't see what procedural rights you are having now.

MS THABETHE: I apologise.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Your colleague has just as much interest in the proceedings but he is not jutting in and out.

MS THABETHE: I apologise.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I am sure that the Chairman will give you right, if you ask him, I am sure he will allow you.  I am not saying I am stopping you, I am just saying that one must stick to procedure.

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to know the names of the people that you saw attacking or burning the Luthuli house.

UNKNOWN: It was Sqwayi Nqobo, Mqupeni Zulu.  I did not know the third one's name.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible)

UNKNOWN: Yes, I knew them.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you had prior trouble with them?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I could say there was a conflict between them as a group of IFPs and they were attacking us as the comrades.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible)

UNKNOWN: The two I know very well and they are the ones who used to attack us and shoot the comrades in our place.
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MS THABETHE	212	MR M H KHANYILE
These are the two that I know very well, not the third one.

JUDGE WILSON: You've told us that you and a group of others were take to Xeli's place at Oswatini on the 28th February, you remember that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I do.

JUDGE WILSON: Were the guns brought with you on the same occasion?

UNKNOWN: No.  The guns were not brought with.

JUDGE WILSON: When were the guns brought?

UNKNOWN: The guns were delivered later while we were staying at Xele's place.

JUDGE WILSON: How many guns?

UNKNOWN: There were seven guns.

JUDGE WILSON: Why were you the only one who was armed on this day?

UNKNOWN: The other guns which were available were far too big and the other two small ones had been taken by other members of our group.  So the big ones were hidden because the police were troubling us.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Khanyile, I have only one question to put to you.  I want to know whether it was the modus operandi of the ANC in your area to launch retaliatory attacks against the IFP indiscriminately.

UNKNOWN: We were not attacking indiscriminately.  We were attacking Inkatha members and the situation actually forced us to actually defend ourselves when we were being attacked by Inkatha members.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you not foresee the possibility that there might be small children and women in the house that you so ferociously attacked?

UNKNOWN: In that particular yard there is quite a
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MS KHAMPEPE	213	M H KHANYILE
number of houses or rondawels and when we got there I thought or generally thought that they had got into that particular house that I attacked.  As a result I thought probably the other members of the family were in the other rondawels.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I am asking you again Mr Khanyile which you have not answered.  Could you not have foreseen that there might be a possibility of small children and women being in that house which you attacked?

UNKNOWN: No, it never occurred to me that there could be children and women, because the members of the IFP who got into that particular rondawel shot from the inside so  I thought they were all by themselves.  That is why they were able to shoot at us.

JUDGE WILSON: One last point.  Had you been to the Zulu kraal before you went to this kraal?

UNKNOWN: I don't think I understand the question.  Would you please repeat it?

JUDGE WILSON: From the Luthuli kraal had you been to the Zulu kraal before you went to the Nqobo kraal?

UNKNOWN: We went to the Zulu place after they had attacked.  There were some who went to the Zulu kraal.

JUDGE WILSON: (Inaudible)

UNKNOWN: As I have explained before, that on Friday we were attacked and the house was burnt.  That's when we ran away.  And after they had burnt the house we went to the police station where we were not helped by the police, then we went to the Nqobo place to launch an attack because the police were not helping us.

JUDGE WILSON: I am asking you about going to the Zulu kraal.  Now you are talking about the Nqobo kraal and
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JUDGE WILSON	214	M H KHANYILE
trying to launch an attack.

UNKNOWN: Yes, we went to the Zulu kraal after they attacked Xele's place, then we went to Zulu.  That was on Friday, not on Sunday.  It was after the event of burning the Xele's house, we went to the police and we couldn't get any help, therefore we went to the Zulu kraal.

JUDGE WILSON: To attack that.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: I am reading out of the judgment, and the Judge says that at your trial you told him
"On the morning in question small boys came and reported that the Luthuli kraal was burning.  The Luthuli's were also ANC supporters.  They were told that one Skwayi Nqobo and one Mkupeni Zulu were responsible for this".

UNKNOWN: That is correct, we even saw them.

JUDGE WILSON: ... then went on to say
"They then set off in pursuit of these men.  In his evidence in chief he said "we ran to find them".  They went via the Zulu kraal to the Nqobo kraal".

UNKNOWN: No, that is not correct.  The event that took place at Zulu was on Friday, not on Sunday.  They didn't run to Zulu, they went straight to Nqobo's place.

JUDGE WILSON: ... say you didn't go to the Zulu kraal.

UNKNOWN: No, we didn't go to the Zulu kraal on Sunday.

JUDGE WILSON: ... heard shots being fired from that direction.

UNKNOWN: I can't say that because when we were firing shots, the Zulu's place is not far from Nqobo, so when you are coming from Luthuli going to Nqobo's place you will pass
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JUDGE WILSON	215	M H KHANYILE
the Zulu and we were firing guns all the way.

JUDGE WILSON: So coming from Luthuli's going to Nqobo's you would pass the Zulu's.

UNKNOWN: Yes, we will pass nearby.

JUDGE WILSON: (Inaudible)

UNKNOWN: We did pass, not that we went there.  We didn't go to the Zulu ...

ADV DE JAGER: Could I just clear up something.  You said in  your evidence just before the adjournment "We were firing guns all the way".

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Who were you referring to when you said "we were firing"?

UNKNOWN: It was Skwayi Nqobo, Mkupeni Zulu and this other third person, whom I didn't know his name.   All of them were IFP members who attacked the Luthuli's house.

CHAIRPERSON: ... they were firing guns.  You said "we were firing guns all the way" and the question was "who was we"?

UNKNOWN: Myself and these three IFP members.