Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-02

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes Mr Chairperson.  Mr Luthuli, did you before Buxusa said you must go to Mthetwa and attack, did you know who killed your father?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: Buxusa did not talk to me directly.  I received a report from the honourable Mr Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question was, after your father had been killed, did you know who was responsible for the death of your father, who killed your father?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: No.  I just heard that it was people from Ngonweni.  That is all I heard.

MR SIBANYONI: You heard from whom?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: When I arrived, my father was already dead and my brother told me this.  He is the one who explained to me that it was people from Ngonweni who had actually attacked my father.

MR SIBANYONI: You repeatedly referred to the applicant as the honourable Mr Zulu.  Why do you call him honourable?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: Because he was the IFP Youth Organiser, he was my superior and I respected him together with Mr Buxusa.

MR SIBANYONI: But he was only 17 years old in 1993, when this incident happened, is that so?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: It is possible, but he is very eloquent, he is able to talk to the people.

MR SIBANYONI: The evidence at the trial was that there were only six men at Mthetwa's house when you people arrived, and not 20, around 20 as you are estimating.  What do you say about that?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: That is a mistake.  It is something that they would say because we are always at opposing ends.

MR SIBANYONI: Why so few people in other words, were killed and injured, why was it not possible to injure or kill more than the number which was killed?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: It is not common that you are able to kill a lot of people and whoever dies, it may be fate that that is indeed the day on which he is supposed to die, because some of them managed to flee.

MR SIBANYONI: But you would have injured more than the number, the two people that you injured, am i correct?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: It was not easy, because they were already outside.  If maybe they had been inside the house, maybe we could have killed more, but because they were already outside on the yard, it was difficult.

MR SIBANYONI: I see you are turning your head away from the panel, is there a reason for doing that?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: I just want to hear properly.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Luthuli, take this and put it next, put this thing next to the microphone.  Take this device and put it there.  Maybe that will help.

MR LAX: Can you hear us properly now?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: Yes, I can hear.

MR SIBANYONI: You said the attack you launched, was to prevent the other side from launching another attack.  Did I understand you properly?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: But why did you wait for six months before trying to prevent further attacks?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: They were heavily armed and they were very dangerous people.  That is why it took us a while, so that in the meantime they would just forget about us.

MR SIBANYONI: The information which was gathered by the TRC Investigating Group, is that there was no political conflict in the area, no political structures, but what predominantly was existing there, was that you belonged to a group called Sinamandla, which was terrorising the area.  What do you say about that?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: That is a mistake, I have no knowledge of that.
	I am not convicted for harassing people in the area.

MR SIBANYONI: If relatives of the victims come here and say there were only six men sitting under a tree, drinking beer when you attacked them, what would you say to that?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: I would deny that.

MR SIBANYONI: If they say they know that you in fact belonged to that group called Sinamandla, what would you say about that?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: That would be a mistake, I do not know that gang.   That was my nickname.

MR SIBANYONI: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sibanyoni.  Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you.  Do you remember one Shosi boy that was killed in your area?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: I don't remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: The name was Xude Shosi.

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: I don't remember.  Was he killed in our area?

CHAIRPERSON: Apparently so.

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: I think it is a mistake.

MR LAX: I see, because of what affiliation was your father?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: He was a follower of the IFP.

MR LAX: The investigations done byu the TRC Investigation Unit, indicate that your father was killed as a result of a revenge for the killing of the Shosi boy, but you don't know anything of it?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: I think that is a mistake.

MR LAX: Do you know induna Shangase?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: No, I don't know.

MR LAX: You don't know him at all?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: Not at all.

MR LAX: Why if you had been living at kwaMashu hostel for at least six months, did you find it necessary to go back and attack this area?
	You had nothing to do with the area for six months, why go back there?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: I was a hostel dweller and I will always look around for temporary jobs.  When I left Buloshe, I went to Ndwedwe.
	I resided in kwaMashu due to looking for temporary jobs, but I originally came from Nkosi Ndwedwe.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question Mr Lax put to you was, why if you were at kwaMashu, did you find it necessary to go back to Madada and attack the people at Ngonweni?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: There was a need that necessitated us to attack.

MR LAX: That was the order from Buxusa?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: Yes, though it was relayed to me by Zulu.

MR LAX: Yes.  So if he hadn't given an instruction, you wouldn't have gone back there to attack?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: Yes, I wouldn't have gone to attack.  I was living at Lindelani.  If he did not come to me, they wouldn't have found me.

MR LAX: But you weren't in Lindelani, you were at kwaMashu in the mens' hostel?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: That is so.

MR LAX: Or maybe you were at Lindelani and not at kwaMashu?  Which is it?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: I was in kwaMashu hostel.

MR LAX: I see, that was just a mistake?  What authority did Buxusa have over Ndwedwe, he was at Lindelani.  Why should he have any authority in Madada?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: I know him to be residing in Madada as an induna, and a leader as well of the IFP.

MR LAX: So was he also exiled from the area?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: Please repeat your question.

MR LAX: Was he also exiled from the area?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: Yes, he was residing as well in Buloshe.

MR LAX: When did he leave Bolushe?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: Do you mean when he left, when did he leave Bolushe?

MR LAX: Yes?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: He never left Bolushe, Buxusa.

MR LAX: I understood he was living at Lindelani?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: I don't remember him residing at Lindelani.

MR LAX: I see.

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: I remember him to be residing in Madada.

MR LAX: I see, so at the time of this attack and at the time of the previous attack on your father, he was living at Madada?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: Yes, in Madada.

MR LAX: And what was his position in the IFP in Madada?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: I know him as a leader of the IFP.

MR LAX: Was he the Chairperson of the branch, was he - what position did he hold?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: In as far as the rank, the official ranks of the IFP, I wouldn't know but what I know is that he was a leader and induna as well of IFP.

MR LAX: You said you were a supporter, active supporter of the IFP.

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: Yes, I was a follower, an active follower of the IFP.

MR LAX: What branch were you a follower of?  Were you a member of any branch?

LINDA HEMAN LUTHULI: No.  There was no branch that I was affiliated with, I was only a follower of the IFP.

MR LAX: Was there a branch in your area at Buloshe?