Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-19

MR LOUBSCHER: I then would like with your permission to call Mr Botes.

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Loubscher?

MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Botes, you have completed an application for amnesty and signed it on the 7th of December 1996 and these appear on page 26 to 38 of the Amnesty Committee's bundle.

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: You have also - Mr Chairman, may we number this application.

CHAIRPERSON: As Exhibit B?

MR LOUBSCHER: Exhibit B, the affidavit Exhibit B, yes.
	Mr Botes, you prepared an affidavit, is that correct?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: You have heard the testimony or the evidence of Mr Labuschagne with regards to what was mentioned here?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: Do you confirm the content there?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: Yes, and I do.

MR LOUBSCHER: And can you tell the Committee who was the person who determined the targets that you attacked?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: Sir, we received our instructions from Mr Labuschagne and he told us where to go and where we had to place the devices, and this is how it happened.

MR LOUBSCHER: And who determined on which times and on which days you had to go?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: We also received these instructions from Mr Labuschagne.

MR LOUBSCHER: On page 10, on the bottom of page 10 of your affidavit as well as in your amnesty application you mentioned that you were not involved with offences with regards to charges 20, 21 - excuse me, there's a correction, it is charge 20, excuse me, charge 21, not 20.

CHAIRPERSON: So that 20 must be deleted?

MR LOUBSCHER: 20 should be deleted.

CHAIRPERSON: It starts at 21?

MR LOUBSCHER: It starts at 21, Chairperson.
	You were not involved with 21, 38, 40 and 41.

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: That's correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: I think you had gone fishing in South West at that time?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: That's correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: Otherwise do you confirm the contents of this affidavit?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: At any stage did you have any knowledge of any persons who were injured through your actions?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: No, only these that Neels said he read in the papers.

MR LOUBSCHER: Who is Neels?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: Mr Labuschagne.

MR LOUBSCHER: And what did he tell you at that stage?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: He said that he saw in the papers that at Wesselbron somebody was injured.  That is all that I know of anybody.

MR LOUBSCHER: Now your participation in these actions of this group, was it because of personal malice to anybody?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: No.

MR LOUBSCHER: Did you gain anything personally from this?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: Not at all.

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Botes, you also signed a second amnesty application?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: That's correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: This is the one that appears on page 39 to 42 of the bundle.

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: That is correct, I just went and signed it.

MR LOUBSCHER: On whose request?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: On Mr Labuschagne's request, which was a request from General Viljoen, as I understand it.

MR LOUBSCHER: And the only things that you filled in in this whole application form is the written parts on page 39?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: And then your signature on page 42?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: Was this to replace the original application?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: No.

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Botes, you heard that Mr Labuschagne was asked about a bomb which exploded in Viljoenskroon, charge number 6, in Viljoenskroon black township?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: That's correct, we received the instruction from him.

MR LOUBSCHER: Who placed that bomb?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: Mr van der Watt and myself placed the bomb.  Mr Labuschagne dropped us off on the tar road and then one moves across a field, and it was dark and it was raining.  When we arrived at the first houses we just placed the bomb.  I cannot recall what the distances were but it was very dark.

MR LOUBSCHER: The suggestion was that the injured person alleges that the bomb was placed right next to the house.  I don't know how he established this but that the bomb was placed right next to the house, is that true?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: I do not believe that it was right next to the house, it could have been close to the house.  I don't think the bomb, the bomb did not touch anything.  There was a wire fence, I recall that there was a fence where we placed it.

MR LOUBSCHER: You did not know how far this wire fence was from the house?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: Not at all, it was very dark and it rained as well.

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Botes, your participation in this campaign, was this for any other motive other than to, with regards to the position of negotiations for a Volkstaat?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: No.

MR LOUBSCHER: To strengthen this position, not for any other purpose?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: No, it was for the Volkstaat.

MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Loubscher.  Mr Taka, do you have any questions for the witness?

MR TAKA: Thank you, I have a question for this witness.
	Mr Botes, the instructions you and Mr van der Watt received, were they general instructions to cause chaos and mayhem or were you given specific instructions to go an place a bomb for example, at a specific place?  Or the question of where you placed the bomb and what you do, was it left to your discretion?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: No, the instruction was to create chaos.  We stopped along the road and we just placed the thing and that was it.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you now talking specifically about count 6, the Viljoenskroon bomb?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: Viljoenskroon.

CHAIRPERSON: Was your question directed specifically to that count or was it a general question relating to all the incidents?

MR TAKA: The question was a general question.

CHAIRPERSON: I think then put it again on a general - I think you've answered the question in relation to the Viljoenskroon count but Mr Taka has said generally speaking, the instructions that you received, I take it those are the instructions from Mr Labuschagne, did you receive specific instructions in respect of each incident or were the instructions general just to cause as much chaos and mayhem by the resultant explosion from wherever the bomb was?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: Yes, it was to cause chaos.  Specific things were not mentioned, it was just to cause chaos and to receive publicity for the people who were higher up, the leaders, to make their hands stronger in the negotiations for those of us who wanted a Volkstaat.

MR TAKA: But that general mandate or that general instruction also included the condition that no-one is killed and no-one is injured whatever you do, is that correct?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: That's correct.

MR TAKA: So that if you wilfully and intentionally, or even if you through gross negligence caused death and/or injury, bodily injury, that would be your own personal responsibility, not the responsibility of the organisation, is that correct?

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: I don't know how it would have happened in such a case.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Taka is saying is, you said that your instruction included a directive, if I may call it that, not to cause death or injury, now what Mr Taka is saying is, if you placed a bomb and that bomb actually caused injury or death, then would that injury or death be your personal responsibility and not that of the organisation for which you were operating at the time, namely the AWB and/or the Volksfront?