Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-19

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean to say you don't know that?  What do you mean, do you mean you don't remember or are you denying it?  What do you mean when you say
"I don't know that"

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: When it is stated that Jimmy was driving, then I murdered a person, I don't agree with that.

MR SAMUEL: He will say that - and am I correct in saying that if Jimmy in fact had driven a vehicle, you would have been free to do whatever you had wanted to do, am I right?  There would have been no impediment as such, for you to shoot the man and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe he might have not been sober, too drunk to do anything.

MR SAMUEL: Most probably too drunk to even remember that he did commit an offence.

MR LAX: Sorry, can you just put the question to him, rather than making comments.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.
	My question to you is, if what Jimmy says is true, that he had driven the vehicle on the night in question, in regard to paragraph 20 of Exhibit G, then you would have been free to do what Jimmy says you did, and that is shoot the man in the head and dispose of the body at the Executive Hotel.

CHAIRPERSON: He's disputed that that's happened.  We know that somebody sitting in a car can do things, even if you're driving you can do things other than just driving.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Now Jimmy will say that on the day when you all picked Ms Kubheka up at the railway station, at the Durban station, he was the driver of the Corolla on that day.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: It is possible, but I don't remember.

MR SAMUEL: He will say that Mr Dube was in the back seat of the Corolla with Ms Kubheka and you were on the passenger seat in the front.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is not so, Chairperson, we used a kombi.  If I remember well, we used a kombi.  Another point is that Jimmy at that - during that time, Jimmy was a terrible driver and he did not have a licence, therefore in Durban where you have a congestion of traffic, it's not safe to give a person like Jimmy an opportunity to drive.  If you are normal you would not allow Jimmy to drive.

MR SAMUEL: Are you certain that on that day you have a clear recollection that when Ms Kubheka was picked up, she was picked up by your kombi, in your kombi, or your usual kombi on that day?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Yes, because Ms Kubheka knew the kombi and then if we used a different car, she would be suspicious.  We did not have an alternative to change the car, because she knew the kombi and therefore we had to use the kombi.

MR SAMUEL: ...(indistinct) in his evidence also says that a Corolla brought Ms Kubheka on that day, to Battery Beach.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember, but my recollection says we used a kombi, because Ms Kubheka would be surprised because in the first instance we used a kombi, then if we used a different car, she would be surprised and she would be suspicious.

CHAIRPERSON: I think if you could just restrict yourself to answering the questions, if you can't remember then you must say so, rather than come up with some assumption and then after further questions it only appears that what you said was an assumption.  Just answer the questions as they're put to you.  If you can't remember, say so.
	Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Judge.
	He will say that after Ms Kubheka was taken by Hentie Botha and the others, you all then proceeded to Winkelspruit.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SAMUEL: And he will say that you all remained at Winkelspruit on that evening when Ms Kubheka died.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I did not see that, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying, Mr Samuel, just to get it clear, that they stayed there the whole night?

MR SAMUEL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Till the next morning?

MR SAMUEL: Till the next morning.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what they say.
	What do you say to that, Mr Radebe?   That you went to Winkelspruit and you stayed there the whole night until the next morning.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: And he will say that at Winkelspruit, although you all had quarters at CR Swart, most times on operations, it's his evidence that most of the time the askaris stayed at Winkelspruit.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I knew that we stayed at CR Swart.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Samuel is putting to you just for your comment, is that, he's saying that when on operations in Durban, most of the time the askaris stayed at Winkelspruit.  You were not an askari.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I apologise Chairperson.  It's correct, because I was not in all operations in Durban.

MR SAMUEL: Alright.  And he will also say that any person involved in an operation, that's including you now, during that operation and until that operation is completed, you all will stay at Winkelspruit.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I was involved in one operation here, then I told them that I am tired, I want to wash because I did not change my clothes, therefore I told them that I'm leaving to go and wash.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Mbane will say that on the day in question of this incident, you all stayed, you together with Mr Dube and Mr Mbane, stayed at Winkelspruit on the day when Ms Kubheka was killed, or died.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: Okay.  So Jimmy will say ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, I request a minute.  I ask the question because his voice is fainting.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I see it's ...(indistinct) eleven, I think this would be a convenient time to take the tea break.  We'll now adjourn until half past eleven.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Yes Mr Chairperson, just on that issue of measurements for the daughter, the family have agreed that we will have her examined by a practitioner and her measurements will be supplied to the Commission so there's no doubt about her height and her weight and at the same time they will do the same for other family members who will also be used in a similar process later on, on our side of the case.
	Just to place on record Mr Chairperson, that the daughter is particularly upset about this, she is still quite young and she feels quite unprotected as regards this process and so she's quite sensitive to identifications of this nature.  The family express their desire that she be treat with the due care.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Wills, for that, we take note of what you have said and understand that she does feel sensitive about the matter.
	That's acceptable, Mr Visser, that we'll be supplied with measurements at a later stage?

MR VISSER: Yes thank you, Chairperson, that's acceptable.  Perhaps Mr Wills can also tell us what size dresses she wears, that would also be helpful.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: (cont)
	Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Radebe, I put it to you that these operations that you all were on, you all wanted to keep it as secretive as possible, am I right?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SAMUEL: And you all didn't want anyone to know that you all were linked to the South African Police or the Security Branch of the South African Police, am I right?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR SAMUEL: Then I'll put it to you that it would have been more convenient for you all to remain at Winkelspruit throughout these operations, instead of you all commuting between Winkelspruit and CR Swart, where the possibility of someone seeing you all at CR Swart was greater.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: It was possible Chairperson, that even before the operation we may be seen, but we trying by all means not to be identified.