Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR SWANEPOEL: I don't understand your question.  Mr Chairman, I don't want to object unnecessarily, but this question is about which vehicles the person owns now, this is now a decade after this investigation.  This is not relevant then.  We are under time pressure as I see this, and with respect, my submission is that this interrogation is leading nowhere.

MR CHASKALSON: ...(inaudible) and that is that he had two cars.  The way I was enquiring about it, I understate that he potentially  had a collection of cars which were certainly a prize collection, and I'd just like to establish what they were and at what stage he had this collection.  This should take no more that a simple minute or two.

CHAIRPERSON: Put the question, Mr Chaskalson.

MR CHASKALSON: Can you tell us at what time period you started developing this collection of Mercedes Benz cars?

MR SWANEPOEL: I want to correct you, they were not Mercedes Benz motor cars, I've collected them over a period of thirteen to fifteen years.  I've restored them myself.  I bought them in a ...(indistinct) condition and restored them myself.

MR CHASKALSON: You have heard allegations of financial mismanagement during your period at RRL, do you have any comment on that?

MR SWANEPOEL: I reject it with utter contempt.

MR CHASKALSON: You stated that you had put a request to the directors that you wanted a full salary during a period which you were only prepared to do partial work, is that correct?

MR SWANEPOEL: Dr van Rensburg has a problem.

MR CHASKALSON: It is simple enough to answer whether the allegation is correct or incorrect.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.  With respect, the witness has a right to motivate his answer.

MR CHASKALSON: ...(inaudible) allegation was correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Dr van Rensburg had a problem in the company because he could not work with his colleagues.  They all protested, they scolded him, nobody was such a good scientist as he himself, according to him.  Dr van Rensburg at various instances did not abide by certain targets, management targets.  At every instance when he was called in to handle that, he left the office hysterically, he threw papers around and he walked around with a textbook, a Harvard Business Management book under his arm and he said he said he was a very good manager, and he does not accept the management staff of the company.  At various instances we discussed these problems with Dr van Rensburg, not problems with only me, but with all the other people and I had to address these problems.  It all culminated in October/November 1991 when at various instances over a period of two months Dr van Rensburg had an indication that he had to prepare for certain report back planning meetings.  At that stage he was the head of the quality control unit and the purpose was to bring the company in line with the international standard organisation standards.  That was part of those things I found overseas, so that we could compete with overseas research institutions.  At that stage Dr van Rensburg made wrong propositions to the Bureau of Standards.  His people were not informed, they did not know what their duties were.  He forbade them to speak to anybody in the company, so when he was on leave, nothing happened regarding quality control.  We were working according to a strict time schedule to be able to penetrate the market.  I want to say it was part of that attempt by Dr van Rensburg which hindered us so we could not enter the European market when it was a good opportunity to do that.  Dr van Rensburg had to appear in a hearing and he self referred ...(intervention)

MR CHASKALSON: ...(inaudible) the question which I started on and which your legal representatives have not asked you to address ...(intervention)

MR SWANEPOEL: What I'm trying to tell you from the evidence of Dr van Rensburg, you might hear it, put it against the background that he is a grieved scientist, according to his theory.

MR CHASKALSON: Would you say that he or you is more qualified in this particular field?

MR SWANEPOEL: What particular field are you referring to, sir?

MR CHASKALSON: Let us - can do this in a number of ways, we could start off in a chemical and biological field, non administrative functions.

MR SWANEPOEL: He has more knowledge than I have regarding that.

MR CHASKALSON: In your view both Dr van Rensburg and Dr Goosen were people who could not interact well with other people, is that correct?

MR SWANEPOEL: That is correct.  Can I expand on that?

MR CHASKALSON: We don't need an elaboration at this stage, thank you.  In 1986 you replaced Dr Daan Goosen, is that correct?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: After a short period of months you took up the position as the Managing Director and he took up a position in the Roodeplaat Breeding Enterprises, is that correct?

MR CHASKALSON: And he was removed because there was something of a crisis going at RRL, is that correct?

MR SWANEPOEL: Not something of a crisis, it was a crisis.

MR CHASKALSON: So you experience as a Managing Director of RRL was poor then?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: Do you feel that you performed well at RRL as a Managing Director?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: Would you care to give us a brief summary of achievements of RRL while you were Director?

MR SWANEPOEL: RRL became well-known in the commercial world.  The various structures were created within the organisation, firstly to determine the needs of the anti vivisectionists or perhaps to meet them.  We established various committees.  There was financial control.  We budgeted, there was a personnel staff code.  We tried to at that stage, when we failed, we were a leader regarding to Iso '92 standards.  We had to leave that by the way.  Regarding finances, we were well ahead.  Regarding the turnabout of the handling of contracts, military contracts or the research contracts and in that respect we were doing well.  In terms of the situation in which RRL found itself regarding the private and the open market, before my time, it was a very difficult time and at that stage when I was there in 1990, for example, we had progressed a far way to make the company more competitive and it was a successful commercial company.

MR CHASKALSON: What achievements that were made at RRL during your period?

MR SWANEPOEL: No, I can't remember anything specific.

MR CHASKALSON: Or would you just not know them if there were any?

MR SWANEPOEL: I know of various attempts which have resulted in anything.

MR CHASKALSON: ...(inaudible) as being memorable enough for you to recall for us today?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: Did you interact well with the scientist at RRL?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SWANEPOEL: I hope so, yes.

MR CHASKALSON: Were you ever involved in any scientific conversations or input into scientific discussions with them?

MR SWANEPOEL: No, I did not have the ability to do that.

MR CHASKALSON: So you have not published any scientific papers or anything of that nature?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: Do you think that that was a particularly good chance for the Managing Director of a commercial research front company?

MR SWANEPOEL: I have no illusion about it, but the Managing Director of a company is there to manage the company and if the necessary specialists are there to handle the specific departments and the Managing Director does not necessarily have to be a researcher.

MR CHASKALSON: ...(inaudible) expertise on their field?

MR SWANEPOEL: No, I had my specialists.

MR CHASKALSON: Was Daan Goosen at any stage ever requested to return to RRL after he had moved to the breeding enterprises?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: Can you tell us when that took place and under what circumstances it took place?