Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-16

ADV DE JAGER: The Chairperson asked you to indicate when you come to a convenient stage for the short adjournment.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I apologise Mr Chairperson.  I can just as well continue from this point after the adjournment, that's fine.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: (s.u.o.)

MR VAN RENSBURG: (cont) Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Munyai, we're still talking about the first murder.  Can you tell me, except for the fact that you hit the deceased four times with a stick and you fetched the muti and threw it on the fire, what was the rest of your involvement in this murder?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Nothing I did.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, who put the name of Mr Madadzhe on the list?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: It's the one who is called Tatini Ramwashe.

MR VAN RENSBURG: At the time of the murder, did you owe Mr Madadzhe any money?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Not at all.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Is it not so that a few months before the murder you took R50 from Mr Madadzhe and your family had in the meantime arranged to pay back that money?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: That's not true, I would not kill Mr Madadzhe just because I owe him R50.

ADV DE JAGER: But that is not what's being put to you, it's not being put to you that you killed him because you owed him money, you've only been asked whether you in fact owed him R50?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: No.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And I put it to you that at the time of Mr Madadzhe's death, his family has already paid back R10 out of the R50 that you have owed him?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg, is it eventually going to be put to him that the reason for the killing had something to do with the debt?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes I will include that.

CHAIRPERSON: It's been put to you that R10 of the debt has already been repaid.  What have you got to say about that?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Could you repeat your question?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes I will repeat it.  I put it to you that at the time of Mr Madadzhe's murder, your family has already paid back R10 of this R50 that was owing to him by you?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: I don't know about this.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I further put it to you that Mr Madadzhe was not a witch, that he was not involved in witchcraft and that he had no muti in his house on the night that he was murdered.

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: That's not true.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I further put it to you that the reason why you participated in murdering Mr Madadzhe was to get rid of this debt that you owed to him?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: That's not true.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it your instructions that the whole group of people did it for the same reason?

MR VAN RENSBURG: No, Mr Chairperson, I will not go that far to put that statement to the witness.
	The last question regarding the murder of Mr Madadzhe, what was Mr Malaudzi's the other applicant in this specific event or incident, what was his involvement in the murder of Mr Madadzhe?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Can you repeat your question?

MR VAN RENSBURG: What was Mr Malaudzi's involvement in the murder, what did he do in order to kill Mr Madadzhe?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: What I'd seen on that day is that Mr Mulaudzi left the hut.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, apart from setting fire to the hut what else did he do?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Nothing I seen what he did, I only seen what he did, I just seen only when he was leaving the house.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay.  If we can turn to the murder of Mr Maphaha then on the same date can you again just briefly or now can you again just tell us what was your personal involvement in the killing of Mr Maphaha?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: I beat him.

MR VAN RENSBURG: With what did you beat him and how many times?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: With a stick, if I'm not mistaken three times.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you just indicate to me, was it a knobkierrie, was it a stick?  How thick was it, how long was it?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: It was a stick which was used as a wood for fire, it was not so thick.  I can take for an example here in this house it was like this steel of the chair, it was just like this steel of the chair.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And do you say that if you hit a person with that stick you can kill him?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: As that day I was not beating him alone, it was possible that he could die because he was being beaten by many sticks.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I'm only talking about the stick that you hit him with.  If you hit him alone, would he have been killed?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: I wouldn't have killed him, it would be broken.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Why would you then say, were you found guilty because you only hit him with a stick that was too thin to kill him?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: It was because I participated in the killing of him that is why I'm pleading for amnesty.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I see, okay.  Regarding the murder of Mr Maphaha, I have to put it to you that the reason why you and the group killed him was because of jealousy and not because of any political motive?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: That's not true.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you not earlier testify that - pardon me, one second please Mr Chairperson?  I will rephrase that question please.
	Would you say that Mr Maphaha was a rich man?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Mr Maphaha, I cannot say he was rich.

MR VAN RENSBURG: How many rooms did his house have?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: The house had three rooms.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Who put his name on the list?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: The name of Mr Maphaha was put by a certain man called Mampo Grogo.

MR VAN RENSBURG: In your evidence in chief you testified that a person's name was not just put on the list and then he was murdered.  I want you to describe to this hearing if one of the people on the meeting where you made the list mentioned a name what happened after the mentioning of the name and before it was put on the list?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: As I was a chairperson of that meeting, I intend to ask the person who is putting that name, that person was alleged to be a witch, that why are you saying for an example Mr Maphaha was witch, he would also describe the reason why.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And if he gave a good reason the name would go on the list?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: There was no way.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Pardon, I don't understand the answer, just repeat it please?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes there was.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, what was the reason that was forwarded to motivate Mr Maphaha's name to go on the list?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: It is after there was a missing of that child that I made that she was plus or minus twelve years, there was claim that she was last seen with Mr Maphaha.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now before that person who put Mr Maphaha's name gave that motivation, had you heard this rumour before that the child went missing went it was last seen with Mr Maphaha?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: On that time that was about two weeks the child was already missed I've heard about that rumour.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And therefore you agreed for the name to go on the list?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now I have to put it to you again that Mr Maphaha was no witch, that he did not practice witchcraft and that the reason why he was murdered was because he was richer than the other people in the community?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: That's not true.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I have no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, have you got any re-examination?

MR NDOU: None, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one actual question I've got.
	So when you got all this information when people were talking about who must get on the list you honestly believed what the people were saying about those others?