Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1976-07-19

MR VAN WYK: Yes this was basically as you can see a swastika.  It wasn't the official flag of the NSP.  We did have a flag but I see it hasn't been included here.  The NSP's flag was basically white with a red cross and a swastika.  There are connotations to this flag on page 13 although it had more symbolism that the South African flag, almost like the AWB flag, similarly as how the AWB flag has a triple 7 element, but with a bent cross to emphasise the National Socialist Partisan Party standpoint which we also stood for.

MR GIMSBEEK: Just below that photograph there is a book which is depicted on the photograph, can you comment on that, do you know this book?

MR VAN WYK: Yes, I think it was Jurgens Grobler's book.  I am not sure though, and I can't comment on it.

MR GIMSBEEK: There was a lot of weapons and ammunition found, I am not going to list everything, were these weapons and ammunition all acquired in the various robberies and break-ins?

MR VAN WYK: They were acquired in the robberies and break-ins as well as weapons which were acquired beforehand.  For example the AK47 acquired by White and the R1 which he owned, or was in his possession as well as two pistols which were in the possession of du Plessis, and the rest of the stuff was obtained during the course of action by the NSP.

MR GIMSBEEK: Here are still other books in photo 22 - 24 do you recognise any of those books?

MR VAN WYK: I don't recognise them all there were so many propaganda books that we were exposed to that it's a bit difficult for me to recognise one of them because there were tenfold.

MR GIMSBEEK: Right.  Can I refer you to the newspaper reports which appeared at that time whatever relevance they might have, that you referred to yourself as a rightwinger?

MR VAN WYK: That's right.

MR GIMSBEEK: At that time in your bail application there was perpetual reference made to you as a rightwinger according to your political activities, is that correct?

MR VAN WYK: Yes that is correct.

MR GIMSBEEK: Can I refer you to item Z8?
You will see there's a swastika again.

MR VAN WYK: Sorry I can't find item Z8.

MR GIMSBEEK: Z9.  My colleague tells me it is part of Z8 on the very last page, page 4 of Z8.

MR VAN WYK: Yes it's part of the propaganda material that originates from Belgium. Most of the propaganda material came from America.

MR GIMSBEEK: Good.  And then the letters, who wrote those, do you know and to whom were they written?

MR VAN WYK: Some of the letters is basically correspondence between Jean du Plessis and Oliver Matteu in respect of the organisation of various matters of the organisation as well as our planned trip that we planned to Europe.

MR GIMSBEEK: Then I refer you to two sworn statements which are appended as Z12 and Z13 about a certain Leunis van Rooyen and a Leon Groenewald, do you have any thing to say regarding this?

MR VAN WYK: Yes the sworn statement of Leunis van Rooyen was someone I was acquainted with, he was mostly in contact with du Plessis, he supported us on various occasions and he also sympathised with us.  We also approached him for recruitment into the organisation but he couldn't be recruited, although he could help us with certain logistical issues. In Z13 his statement about Leon Groenewald a family member of mine, du Plessis and I approached him for recruitment into the organisation but he was not in favour of that.

MR GIMSBEEK: Mr van Wyk in accordance with this amnesty application which was submitted, did you tender evidence to support it, do you have anything further which you would like to add regarding your application?

MR VAN WYK: What I can possibly add is the fact that during the five years that have elapsed I noticed that there are certain elements that are absolutely dangerous for the youth as far as politics is concerned and I became a victim of those and I don't want to give the impression that I was an innocent victim.  I certainly did participate in the activities, I totally associated myself with them and I can only thank God that we were arrested when we were and I am sorry that we weren't arrested earlier.

MR GIMSBEEK: Then what are the probabilities that you would again do the same sort of things in the event of you being granted amnesty?

MR VAN WYK: I am positive that there is not the slightest chance of that happening, there is no question of it.

MR GIMSBEEK: Good that will be all then unless you want to add something?  That will be all Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Could you just refer to photographs no.Z2 and Z6, who are these people that are depicted in those photographs?

MR VAN WYK: Your Honour Z2 is a photograph of Jurgens Grobler and Z6 or Z8, which other photograph, Z8?

CHAIRPERSON: No Z6.

MR VAN WYK: Z6, I am not sure who that is of, it's a bit unclear, but these are photographs of both Jurgens Grobler and Matthew White at the scene at Noeniput where they allegedly committed suicide.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman may we take a lunch break?  A lot has been said to determine my stand as far as cross-examination is concerned, if there is I will do that after lunch.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rhoode are there any questions you would like to ask of this witness?

MR RHOODE: Sir may I ask a couple please then we will make up the time that way.  I have about four or five questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please.

MR RHOODE: Thank you very much for the privilege.  Mr van Wyk this Church of the Creator is it purely an ideological organisation or is it or did it have a political agenda?

MR VAN WYK: Yes the Church is a purely ideological organisation, but what I can say is, it's a purely ideological organisation and the church would also affirm this in response to the question, but I am sure that any person who is involved with that church would be threatened at one time or another to be driven by this urge.

MR RHOODE: If I can put it this way did this church have by its principles have the effect that it would start to drive people towards influencing people other than those who attended the services of the church?

MR VAN WYK: I have no knowledge of any of those effects but I what I do know of is the amount of propaganda in their possession as well as certain other actions that always celebrated Hitler's birthday, arranged things during those proceedings but for the most part this was performed by the people who attended the meetings.

MR RHOODE: Was this piece propaganda distributed to other people?

MR VAN WYK: No, not that I know of but I personally did distribute it to various people.

MR RHOODE: Just one thing about Mr Du Plessis, how would you rate him as a debater? Was he good, was his factual knowledge good?

MR VAN WYK: He was very informed as well as accommodating.  He respected my views and I could choose a subject and we could discuss it.  He was very accommodating in that respect.  He also had a wide general knowledge and he was a very good narrator.

MR RHOODE: Did you ever find that you could bring him into other points of view, could you ever persuade him that any of your views were correct?

MR VAN WYK: If any of my views corresponded with his is, but not otherwise. It would otherwise be impossible to change his view. He had a black and white ideology and that's what he went along with.

MR RHOODE: You were young, between 13 and 18 when you were exposed to him. If you should think back on it what impression, what influence would you say did Mr du Plessis had on you?

MR VAN WYK: I was at all times conservative in my views.  I think I was at the stage when I was looking for a leader figure in my life and Mr du Plessis seemed to be the one who filled this gap.  Later on he became more like a father-figure to me.  I also discussed many of my emotional problems with him so essentially he gave me guidance and helped me search for my identity.