Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-06

MR MACADAM: He has in fact identified Mr Luthuli, the previous witness.   Now was anything explained to you by Mr Luthuli when you arrived there?

WITNESS:   Nothing was explained to me.

MR MACADAM: And if you could tell us briefly, what did you proceed to do once you had arrived there?

WITNESS:   We were given uniforms which were blue or green overalls and some tackies and we started clearing the place, building some places where we can stay.  We erected the tents and stayed there.

MR MACADAM: And after that was completed, did you receive any training at all?

WITNESS:   Yes, we did receive training.  After that they started training us, that was physical training.  It took about two weeks.

MR MACADAM: And you say "they started training us", but up until now you've only mentioned Mr Luthuli.  Who is the "they"

MR MACADAM: /that

MR MACADAM: 1A that you are referring to?

WITNESS:   There were also white people.  Those whom I remember are JJ, Swart, Kevin and those were supposed to be our instructors.

MR MACADAM: And did you know or did they tell you who they were working for?

WITNESS:   I didn't know.

MR MACADAM: Right.  You started off telling us about this basic training.  Could you proceed further, what further training you received?

WITNESS:   We were also trained as to how to use firearms.  We started with AK47s.

MR MACADAM: Are there any other firearms which you recall?

WITNESS:  It was the AK47s, G3s, sub-machine guns, UZIS, rocket launchers, limpet mines, explosives, PE4 Cortex and we learned a lot about those.

MR MACADAM: What exactly did you learn about these various weapons that you've described?

WITNESS:   We were told that they're normally(?) used by the ANC, therefore we should learn and know about them, so that when we come out we are able to use them.

MR MACADAM: For what purpose would you use them?

WITNESS:   When we come back in KwaZulu-Natal, these were the arms which we're supposed to use to protect the KwaZulu people.

MR MACADAM: How were you going to protect them?

WITNESS:   We had to use these arms which we were trained.

MR MACADAM: And can you proceed to tell us more about any other things that you were possibly trained in, apart from these?

WITNESS:   We had trained in house training as to how to penetrate a building if you want to kill someone inside and also about ambush and in all those cases we had to use all the firearms that I just mentioned.

MR MACADAM: And anything further that you recall?

WITNESS:   I don't remember anything.

MR MACADAM: /Were

MR MACADAM: 1A Were you at any stage put into a specific group of persons during the course of this training?

WITNESS:   Yes, we were divided into four groups.  There was an offensive group, contra-mobilisation group, defensive group and offensive.

MR MACADAM: [Break in recording] ... was this division into various groups done?

WITNESS:   At the end of the course.

MR MACADAM: And which group did you form part of?

WITNESS:   I was in the offensive group.

MR MACADAM: Can you indicate to the Commission what you did while you were part of this offensive group?

WITNESS:   We were dealing with the learning about arms, the attacking of houses.  During the demonstration there was a house which was locked and we were shown as to how to penetrate the house and attack or shoot and we were told that when you enter a house you should have a hand grenade, UZIS, shotguns and AK47s.  Those were the firearms that we were taught about.

MR MACADAM: What did you do once you'd entered this house?

WITNESS:  You had to shoot anyone inside the house.

MR MACADAM: Why was that?

WITNESS:   That was supposed to be the ANC inside, so we had to shoot everything.

MR MACADAM: Is there anything else which you recall about your training specifically while you were part of the offensive group?

WITNESS:   We came back to South Africa and we had to take another course.

MR MACADAM: You can describe that course later when we deal with once you had returned.  Now you told us initially that you went to the camp at Ulundi in order to join the KwaZulu Police.

WITNESS:   Yes, while we were at the camp we realised that we're involved with soldiers and not police.

MR MACADAM: /Madlanduna

MR MACADAM: 1A Madlanduna had to explain to us that, "You are going to be trained to be soldiers, because you have to protect the KwaZulu Government and its officials".

MR MACADAM: And did you at any stage receive training while you were in this place that you were taken to from Ulundi in the aeroplane as to how you ... (intervention)

INTERPRETER: May you please repeat your question?

MR MACADAM: Now were you at any stage in the camp where you were taken to from Ulundi, given any training or instructions as to how you should react with the police?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MACADAM: Will you tell us about that?

WITNESS:   They said we should avoid them, not mix with them.

MR MACADAM: Anything else?

WITNESS:   I have forgotten.

MR MACADAM: [Break in recording] ... answer is that you have forgotten, is it that you cannot remember?   Is that what you wish to convey?

WITNESS:   I don't remember any further.

MR MACADAM: Now when you returned from this camp, what did you then proceed to do?

WITNESS:   We went back to Ulundi to a place called Nhlungwane and we stayed there and Chief Buthelezi came to welcome us.  He was together with Sipho Mzimela, M Z Khumalo and others whom I have forgotten now, whom I can't remember.  They celebrated for our return and they slaughtered a cow, which was slaughtered and we feasted and it was jubilant.

MR MACADAM: And after that?

WITNESS:   We feasted and Chief Mangosuthu Buthelezi expressed his joy.  We had people ... (inaudible) ... with firearms and he was happy that we all came back safely and no one was injured. That's what I remember.

MR MACADAM: Now did you, once you returned back to KwaZulu,

MR MACADAM: /receive

MR MACADAM: 1A receive any further training?

WITNESS:   We went back to out respective homes and we were contacted if required.  I went back to my home at Mpumalanga, that's Hammarsdale.

MR MACADAM: Yes and after that?

WITNESS:   After that we were contacted from Ulundi.  We went back to Ulundi and we were told that we have to report to our nearest police stations at home so that we could be able to perform our duties.

MR MACADAM: [Break in recording] ... that?

WITNESS:   It was Madlanduna ... [break in recording]

MR MACADAM: (END OF CASSETTE NO 1A)

MR MACADAM: (START OF CASSETTE NO 1B)

MR MACADAM: 1B

WITNESS:   ... and I was in Hammarsdale at the Mpumalanga Police Station so I used to go up every morning, go to the police station to report.

MR MACADAM: To whom did you report?

WITNESS:   At that time it was Lieutenant Makhatini who was in charge of the police station.  We were introduced to him and we were told that we were going to work under him, so we used to go to the police station and stay there and not doing anything.  After that it became clear that we should get appointed so that we can start work.  Photos were taken of us - photographs were taken and were sent to Ulundi and appointment certificates were sent back to us and they were brought by a detective sergeant.

MR MACADAM: Who was responsible for the taking of photographs of you?

WITNESS:   There's a place where we took those photos, I can't remember the place, the name of the place.

MR MACADAM: Was it at a police station or a private photography company or where was it?

WITNESS:   No, those were ID photos.  Each and everyone have to go and take his to the police station.

MR MACADAM: /Why

MR MACADAM: 1B Why was this necessary that this be done?

WITNESS:   Because we couldn't be able to handle the firearms without appointment certificates.

MR MACADAM: Right, if you could take it further and tell us now what eventually transpired after these photographs were taken?