Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Wait a little, I just, some of the families who have been involved in some of the matters that have been subjects here are in, have been in the audience and I do not think that I have properly recognised them and I would say, because they are going to be going away, there are some of them here.  Mrs Sepei, could you please come up here, (... indistinct) and others.  Where is Mrs Sepei?  Order please.  You want to come, and I think, I mean, Paul, I thought I saw Bishop.  Well, I am going to be addressing you, yes.  Order please.
 Usually, order please, usually in our victim hearings when the victims or survivors come into the hall which is the venue of the hearing, as an expression of our solidarity, as an expression of our respect for people who have suffered, whatever or whoever caused that suffered, we all stand and we usually have done that and we want to do this on and I just want to say that on behalf of our country, we hope that the pain and anguish of so many will be something that goes towards the healing of our land.  We want them to know our very deepest sympathies for them for what they have suffered and we thank them and hope that they will have it in their hearts to reach out to those who may have caused them pain, to reach out in order for our land to be healed.  Thank you very much. 
 Order please.  Please, please, please do not have your press interview here now, please.  Thank you very much.  Mr Makanjee.

MR MAKANJEE: I am Sanjay Makanjee ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.  Can you help us, because we really are pressed for time and the legal people are looking daggers at me and I am trying to be, yes, thank you very much.

MR MAKANJEE: I am acting on behalf of Mr Mekgwe, Mr Mono and Mr Ikaneng.  Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, in the trial in which you were charged with kidnapping and assault your defence was that you were in Brandfort at the time of the alleged incident.  Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR MAKANJEE: Can you explain, then, why Thabiso Mono, Pelo Mekgwe and Kenneth Kgase have given evidence that you participated in the assaults on them?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I cannot explain, save to say that Mekgwe tried to explain on this forum that he was told that he must not make a statement different from the one he had made at the trial.  You and I know that the trials of those days were riddled with statements, people were sometimes forced to make, depending entirely on what case it was, who was being charged.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you.  Can you also explain why Katiza Cebekhulu, John Morgan, Jerry Richardson and Xoliswa Falati have also stated that you were there and assaulted the young men?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I cannot explain, save to give the same explanation, Sir.

MR MAKANJEE: Can you explain why Mr Dempsey gave evidence at this hearing that the police also knew that you were not in Brandfort at the time that you said you were and ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, ... (intervention).

MR MAKANJEE: ... a fact, sorry Ma'am, a fact that your counsel did not dispute?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I am not aware of that, but I am aware of the fact that the police would have tried to extract a different version from mine for the obvious reasons.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, maybe my ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not recollect that.

MR SEMENYA: ... my understanding of Afrikaans is not good and I probably did not have my headsets on, but I do not seem to recall Dempsey saying the police knew that client was not in Brandfort.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you help us, ja?

MR PIGOU: My understanding of the evidence from Senior Superintendent Dempsey was that they had a number of statements from people from, including, I believe, one Shakes, Mr Johannes Tau, that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was not in Brandfort on the day in question.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: But, I mean, that was not the same thing as saying they knew.

MR MAKANJEE: My apologies, Mr Chairman.  Ma'am, so am I correct, then, in saying that you cannot offer any explanation as to why all these people that I have named to you, have made this allegation?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I have sat here, Sir, for almost two weeks now, listening to fabrications about myself ... (intervention).

MR MAKANJEE: Are you, perhaps, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... from witnesses and saying the most ridiculous assertions about me.

MR MAKANJEE: Okay.  Let me go on, Ma'am.  You suggested in your evidence in-chief today that it would have been quite easy for the young men, who were allegedly kidnapped, to leave your Diepkloof property.  Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, the surroundings are such that anyone can leave as they please.

MR MAKANJEE: Would you not think that the men, having been seriously assaulted by members of the football club, having witnessed a near fatal assault of Stompie, that they were scared, afraid of, for their lives?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I honestly have no idea.  As I say, my belief, if you saw the surroundings in my house, are that anyone can leave as they please.

MR MAKANJEE: You further stated that there is no need for you to get the versions of Thabiso Mono, Pelo Mekgwe and Kenneth Kgase with regard to the, their abduction, in your evidence in-chief.  Is that correct?]

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I believed so at the time.

MR MAKANJEE: You also, then, said that you got visits on various occasions by various church leaders who came to express their concern about these young men who were at your place.  Is that ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR MAKANJEE: ... correct?  Did this not alert you to any possible problems that may have been taking place and did that not, then, make you want to question the boys or the young men to find out how they were?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is why I have been reminded here that I did enquire from Richardson.  I disbelieved at that stage.

MR MAKANJEE: My question was not whether you enquired from Richardson, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, it is whether you enquired from the boys or the young men themselves?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I did not ... (intervention).

MR MAKANJEE: Even after you ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... enquire from the boys themselves.  I enquired from Richardson.

MR MAKANJEE: This is even after the church leaders came on various occasions to express their fears and concerns about these young men?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAKANJEE: When did you see the youths, when did you first see the young men when you returned from Brandfort?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I would need to be reminded.  I did see them quite a few days thereafter.

MR MAKANJEE: You said that you did not know, notice any injuries on them.  Is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not to my memory, I did not.

MR MAKANJEE: Did you notice any injuries on Kenneth Kgase?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I do not recollect that.

MR MAKANJEE: You are aware that Mr Kgase escaped from your house on the seventh of January 1989?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I consequently learned so.

MR MAKANJEE: You are also aware from the evidence at your trial, that he was taken to Dr Martin Connel.  Is this ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, so I ... (intervention).

MR MAKANJEE: ... correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... understood.

MR MAKANJEE: And I am sure you must also be aware that Dr Connel's evidence describes serious injuries which were clearly visible to Mr Kgase's face and body?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I heard that evidence at the trial.

MR MAKANJEE: Can you explain why you did not notice these injuries?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I heard that evidence at the trial.  I did not notice any injuries, Sir.