Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-01

CHAIRPERSON: Before we start our proceedings, I would just like to introduce the Committee to you.  We are all members of the Amnesty Committee of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.  On my left is Mr Jonas Sibanyoni.  He is an attorney from Pretoria.
	On my right is Mr Ilan Lax, he is an attorney from Pietermaritzburg, and I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge from the Eastern Cape, attached to the Transkei Division of the Court, the Hight Court there.
	I would at this stage ask the legal representatives to please place themselves on record.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson and members of the Committee.  My name is John Wills, an attorney from Pietermaritzburg.  I am representing Min Radebe, Dr Phillips and Mr Sithole in the proceedings today.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.

MS THABETE: I am Ms Thabele Thabete for the TRC, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  The proceedings will be simultaneously interpreted and in order to benefit from the interpretation, you must be in possession of one of these devices.
	The proceedings will be translated into English and Zulu.  English is on channel 2 and Zulu is on channel 3.   These devices are available from the front here, from the Sound Technician in the front.
	We will then be commencing with the application of Mr Radebe.  Thank you Mr Radebe.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, just for the convenience of the Committee, all three applicants seated here this morning, will be testifying in English.

CHAIRPERSON: We will actually be dealing with the applications simultaneously then, as one hearing really?

MR WILLS: I would suggest that that would be the correct procedure in the circumstances, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Then we will be dealing with the applications of Messrs Radebe, Phillips and Sithole.  Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, could Mr Radebe be sworn in?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I just see that we have some legal representatives who have arrived.  Perhaps we could just delay that for a while.
	We have Mr Wills and Ms Thabete on record.  Mr Hewitt would you kindly place yourself on record.

MR HEWITT: Mr Chairman, I appear for the record, the name is Hewitt, initials J.E.  I am senior counsel from the Durban Bar and I am instructed by Mr Falconer of the firm Larson, (indistinct) and Falconer.  We have been instructed to represent the Inkatha Freedom Party as an interested party and also a Mrs Abbie Mchunu and our instructions are to oppose the applications for amnesty of two of the applicants, that is Mr Radebe and Mr Sithole.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR HEWITT: If I may further assist the Committee, with regard to the application of Mr Sithole, it is envisaged that apart from cross-examining Mr Sithole, it is envisaged that we will also be leading evidence of the person who we have mentioned that we represent and we may too, this is unfortunate, we may too be asking, depending on what fruit our cross-examination reveals, we may well after calling Mrs Mchunu, be asking for an adjournment to lead further evidence.
	The reason we find ourselves in this situation is because Mrs Mchunu for the first time heard yesterday that this amnesty application was taking place, and as it will be apparent to the members of the Committee, a perusal of the amnesty application by Mr Sithole will indicate that there are no names of any victims mentioned whatsoever, so it is clearly not a fault of the Amnesty Committee or those investigating on their behalf or any employees of the Committee, not notifying any victims, because no victims' names were furnished to them.
	On the instructions we have, Mrs Mchunu and possibly others were also victims and for that reason, they were not notified because there was nothing in the papers to indicate any victims should have been notified, but we simply place this on record to explain the situation that we find ourselves in is that at the eleventh hour, Mrs Mchunu finds out that the hearing is taking place today, matters are set in motion where we are then instructed and obviously we have consulted extensively with Mrs Mchunu, but during those consultations it emerged that there may well be other witnesses available who can shed some light on the evidence or the application by Mr Sithole and in order that the full picture be presented to this Committee, it may well be in the interest of the application to be dealt with properly, that an opportunity be afforded to us or we may ask the Committee itself to assist us in this regard, by ensuring that other persons whose names will emerge, be subpoenaed to give evidence at this hearing.
	Unfortunately because of the time available to us, this couldn't be arranged today.  All we were able to arrange is Mrs Mchunu's presence.
	It may well be that the evidence that is available will occupy the time of the Committee for the entire day in any way, so no prejudice as such will be suffered if there is a continuation of the hearing after today.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hewitt.  Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I call Mr Radebe.

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson and members of the Committee.  Mr Radebe,  you attested to an affidavit in application for amnesty on the 10-05-1997 and attached to that was an appendix, do you confirm the contents of those documents?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes, I do confirm the contents.

MR WILLS: Can you briefly explain to the Committee why you are applying for amnesty?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, I think as we are building a new democracy in South Africa, our people and our country need to know the truth.  Not to open the old wounds during those difficult, terrible and turbulent times of the early 1990's, so therefore I believe that my testimony here will help our people, especially in kwaZulu Natal in this enormous task of building a new society within the context of a united democratic South Africa.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  You were born in Cato Manor  in 1953 and you joined the ANC and the associated organisations of the Communist Party and MK during 1976?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us briefly what your involvement in those organisations were after 1976, before your arrest in I believe, 1986?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, I started working for particularly the underground organisation of the ANC here in Durban and around 1977, I left the country to Tanzania via Swaziland and Mozambique and during that period, before my arrest, I was serving the ANC, the SACP in many capacities.
	Amongst others, I was the Deputy Chief Representative of the ANC in Dar-Es-Salaam and I also worked in the International Relations Department of the ANC and later, I worked as one of the operatives based in Lesotho, heading the underground structures of the ANC, but more particularly of the SACP.
	During that period, I also underwent military training under the auspices of Umkhonto weSizwe .

MR WILLS: Whereabout did you undergo military training?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I underwent military training in Angola.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that Mr Radebe?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: It was in 1985.

MR WILLS: You also hold some legal qualifications.  I believe you have a B.(indistinct) and a Masters in Law from a German university, is that correct?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: That is correct.   I did my B.(indistinct) at the University of Zululand and my Masters degree at Leipzich University in Germany.

MR WILLS: You returned to South Africa from, you returned in 1986, is that correct?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Indeed, yes.

MR WILLS: What was the purpose of your return?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, at the time when I was arrested, I was charged in Johannesburg for being a member or a banned organisation, the ANC, and for undergoing military training under Umkhonto weSizwe .
	I was charged under the Internal Security Act.