Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-18

CHAIRPERSON: On the evidence we have, Gold was stationed at Pietermaritzburg, van Zyl was stationed at Ladysmith, Visser in Soweto, the person that's been involved, who has been killed, in the Rand area he operated or he came from there.  So clearly, Mr Gold saw this man for about an hour or two hours while he was still alive, van Zyl drove with him from Johannesburg, they didn't know him, on all the evidence we've got so far, and unless you've got evidence that they in fact knew him and they knew who the handler was, we're speculating about it and the witness who has to tell us more about it is Visser.  Obviously they say "we don't know".

MS SAMUEL: Mr Gold, you mentioned that this incident has shocked you and numbed you and made you extremely upset, is that correct?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: That's quite correct.

MS SAMUEL: In fact it has had an impact on your life.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: It's been a cathartic experience for me, Mr Chairman.

MS SAMUEL: But you, Mr Gold, on your own on page 16, that's at paragraph 33, you yourself mentioned that you in fact had indicated on your own to Apt van Zyl that you were available to do this sort of work that is eliminating people.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Mr Chairman, that does not specify this kind of work, it specifies operations against terrorists.  Now there's one this about hot blood and there's another thing about cold blood, Mr Chairman.

MS SAMUEL: So what you are in fact saying is that you were prepared to become involved in the elimination of ANC terrorists.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: I was prepared to become more involved in the fight against the ANC, because that's what I firmly believed at the time, that that was what was necessary for the country.

MS SAMUEL: And in the elimination of terrorists?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: The elimination of terrorists could be, could even mean putting them in jail you know, Mr Chairman.

MS SAMUEL: What about shooting them, killing them?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: If there was a gunfight yes, it would have to be done.  During the attempt to arrest these people one might have to use that as a force option to effect the arrest of those people.

MS SAMUEL: So what you are saying now is this act was committed in cold blood then.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: There's no doubt about it.

MS SAMUEL: There was no reason to do it.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: I don't - no, that I didn't say, that I did not say.  If I think back now, what I told you before about the build-up since I was a child and the propaganda that we were all subjected to and the kind of experience that I had in Rhodesia, the kind of experience I had in South West Africa, this was the build-up to that thing.  I can't say - although personally I was shocked and I found it abhorrent, I have agonised for 20 years to try and make some sense out of it.  I've agonised for 20 years to try and find some justification.

MS SAMUEL: But you yourself went ahead and even became satisfied at the end, satisfied yourself that in fact the body was completely destroyed or eliminated.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Because that is what I was required to do as my job in that particular case, Mr Chairman.

MS SAMUEL: You mentioned earlier on that you cannot remember whether you were asked to in fact bring any particular weapon, is that correct?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: That's true, Mr Chairman.

MS SAMUEL: But you said it's possible that you could have been asked.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: It's possible, Mr Chairman.

MS SAMUEL: Did you not then realise at that stage that you were going to actually become involved in the elimination of the body and that some act would have had to be committed, or some murder would have had to be committed before that body was eliminated?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Mr Chairman, the use of a silenced weapon does not mean necessarily that you're going to assassinate somebody, there are many reasons why you would use a silent weapon.  For instance, if you had to do a house penetration where you had to arrest people in that house and there was a group of you penetrating that house and there'll be different people in different rooms, it might be necessary when you enter this room, instead of using a gun that is going to make a lot of noise to warn the other people in the other rooms, giving them cause to escape and maybe perhaps a reason to escape, you would use a silent weapon on the actual penetration.  That is accepted practise.  The British SAS use it, I mean it's all over the world, Russian Spes ...(indistinct), everybody uses that tactic.

MS SAMUEL: At which stage did you hand over this firearm to van Zyl?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Now you see I'm not sure whether I did bring it or not, so I can't say exactly.  I'm not sure whether I brought it or not, Mr Chairman.

MS SAMUEL: You also stated at page 18 of your application, paragraph 42, that explosives were packed on the body
"Van Zyl showed me how this was to be done as I had never blown up a body before."

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Well that is true, I had never blown up a body before and I have not done it since.

MS SAMUEL: Did van Zyl tell you or did you ask him to show you how to do this?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: No, we all did this together basically, but because I'd never done it before I was - actually as I said, I was quite numb about it, so he assisted in this operation.

MS SAMUEL: Was he the person who assisted you the most, in showing you how to place these explosives ...(intervention)

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: I think in retrospect it was just the two of us.  I can't recall if Mr Schoon was involved in that part of the operation or not, I cannot remember, but it was definitely the two of us.

MS SAMUEL: When van Zyl asked you to become involved in this operation, did you not ask him or did you not ask him exactly what was going to be done?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Mr Chairman, I must say I was curious, but you know we had extremely strict rules about talking on the telephone, you never ever spoke in detail on the telephone at all, never.  We had extremely strict rules about that.  So no, I would not have asked him.

MS SAMUEL: What did you think he was going to ask you to do?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Well from time to time, and this was often, this was a routine part of our job being in the Security Branch, we would intercept information at a certain time on a certain date, there would be a crossing through Mac's Pass or Makanya's Drift or something like, we would then go and lay ambush positions and we would wait for the people and they would be arrested.  I thought it was another one of those.

MS SAMUEL: But when he asked you to bring explosives, did you not think that there was something more than just the mere arresting of the person involved?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Well it was unusual, but the fact that he asked for them made me certain that I would bring them, or that they would be used if he did ask me.

MS SAMUEL: You accept then that the request to become involved in this did not come from any higher authority, it was a request made by van Zyl?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Well not anymore, at the time he was high enough as far as I was concerned.

MS SAMUEL: You didn't take any steps to find out whether this came from headquarters?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: There again, Mr Chairman, our system of strict compartmentation would have prohibited that.  If I'd have started asking questions it would have jeopardised my job, you just don't ask questions.

CHAIRPERSON: And was the position of the Colonel being present?

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Oh at that stage, then I realised, by then I realised that there was something going down when he was there.  That confirmed for me that this thing was really important, as Mr van Zyl had told me.

MS SAMUEL: You have told us also about how sorry you feel about this whole thing and how remorseful you are about it.

DONALD SPENCER GOLD: Oh yes.