Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-27

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: The reason is the same, that I was frustrated after failing to get the people that I was looking for, she did not even give me the information I was looking for.

MR BERGER: If she had said to you, "They are in the house next door", would you have killed her?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I would take her there, I would take her along to show me.

MR BERGER: She says they're next door, would you have killed her?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I would have wanted to go and see them, I would bring her along.

MR BERGER: You're going to take her along to a house where there are these dangerous people who could kill you, you wouldn't kill her first?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: And you were acting on your own at that stage?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: So there were other of your comrades standing around as you asked this girl where the others were?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, they were present, even though I cannot recall what their names are, because some of them came in and went to other rooms.

MR BERGER: And if you had taken her next door and found that the defence were there, would you have killed her?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I would have killed her there.

MR BERGER: But then you wouldn't have been frustrated and infuriated, because then you would have found the people that you were looking for, so why would you have killed her?  What's the translation, sorry?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: She is toeing the same line.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying it's because she associated herself with the defences?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.   She is equal to the defences.

MR BERGER: It's because she supported the defences, even if she wasn't a member of the defences, is that right?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I don't think that one can support an idea that one is against.

MR BERGER: No, one definitely can't, but she supported the defences, whether she was an actual member or not, when you say she toed the line, you're saying she was a supporter of the defences and that justified killing her?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And as far as you were concerned, and all the residents of Kwamadala, all the people in Boipatong supported the defences and toed the line, am I right?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: So therefore all the people in Boipatong, whether members of the defences or not, were targets for attack, correct?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, I would say that, but concerning children and old women, the aged, I don't think so, because they could not control their children.   I, for one, wanted people from around 45 years of age downwards, the same applies to females.   I did not care about the aged and children.

MR BERGER: So are you saying not all people in Boipatong were legitimate targets for attack?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And a seven year old boy was not a legitimate target for attack?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: He is still too young.   It's better to attack a person from ten years of age upwards, because those people are grown-ups.

MR BERGER: Now, when you opened the wardrobe, was it in the same house and you found the two males, was that in the same house that you stabbed this young girl?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, you're referring to a young girl.  His evidence is not that he stabbed a young girl.   According to his evidence, the person that he stabbed was about his age.

MR BERGER: I will rephrase it then.   I'll refer to her as a female.   The two males that you found in the wardrobe, was that in the same house as the female that you had stabbed?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: How big was this wardrobe?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: It was big enough.

MR BERGER: Was it a standard, two door wardrobe?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I did not notice that, I found both of them inside.

MR BERGER: It was a wardrobe that stands against the wall, it's not part of a wall?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I'm not sure whether it was a built-in wardrobe, but it didn't fall.

MR BERGER: And these two males were how old?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: When I looked at them, I think they were older than myself.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, did you in fact look at them when they fell out of the wardrobe?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, I opened the wardrobe because I wanted them to be shot at.

ADV SIGODI: In other words they were shot at whilst the wardrobe was open?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, I had already opened the wardrobe, they fell thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, we will take the tea adjournment at 11 o'clock.

MR BERGER: You've just told the committee that you opened the doors, you saw the two men hiding in the wardrobe, you could see that they were approximately your age, and Themba Mabota then shot and killed them.

MR STRYDOM: No, he said they were older than himself, Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: I apologise.   You could see that they were older than you, the doors were open and Themba Mabota then shot and killed them, is that right?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Yesterday you told the committee that you could not open the doors, Themba Mabota shot at them and you could see only their heads as they collapsed out of the wardrobe.  Which version is the truth?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: The wardrobe was open and they fell and I could see their heads out of the wardrobe.

MR BERGER: You told the committee yesterday that you could not open the doors?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: How were their heads exposed if the wardrobe was not open?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I've been referred to a note by my learned colleague again, and I can just read from that.   Again, I don't have a recollection, because I didn't take a note
"I opened the wardrobe and found two males inside.  I called Themba Mabota.   They died, we saw these heads outside the wardrobe hanging."

CHAIRPERSON: As I understood his evidence, it was that he opened the wardrobe, found these two men, and then the wardrobe couldn't be opened, and then Themba Mabota shot at them.   Perhaps Mr Berger you would want to clarify whether when he opened the wardrobe, did they pull it back, so as to be shot once the wardrobe was closed, because it just seems to me not to make sense that he would see that there were two people inside without first opening the wardrobe, unless it had a glass (indistinct).

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I'll just clarify it briefly and then we can take the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MR BERGER: When Themba Mabota shot at the two males in the wardrobe, were the doors to the wardrobe open or closed?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: The door was already open and it was easy for one to shoot or to see a person inside.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you use the word "silbulga"?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes we were struggling with the door.

ADV SIGODI: In other words are you saying that the occupants inside the wardrobe were trying - were holding the door so that you would not be able to open the door?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Was it wide open or was it just open enough so that you could see the occupants inside the wardrobe?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: It was opened in such a way that you could see that there were people inside, but they did not want us to open the door, the door was opened widely after they were shot at.

MR BERGER: So when they were shot, the doors of the wardrobe were closed?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: They were not completely - the doors of the wardrobe were not completely open, we overpowered them as they were holding the door and as we were also trying to open the door, but the door was not completely closed and it was not completely open.   The door was shot at, the door opened thereafter because no-one was holding the door.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, perhaps this would be an appropriate time to take the adjournment.