Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-08

MR NYOKA: Finally, I would just put to you what the version of my client is. He would say that you never assaulted him on the day that you said you did;  that is on the 12th of August 1985, but that you and one security policeman, called Mr Bezuidenhout, fetched him from a police station one day after his arrest. That is on the 3rd of August 1985 and took him to Louis Le Grange Square to Warrant-Officer Coetzee's office, who was alone at the time.  There you and Warrant-Officer Coetzee prepared the so-called helicopter torture treatment and administered it to him.
	Further, that you, Mr Bezuidenhout and one policeman, Mr Strydom, assaulted him with a sjambok in turn, whilst Mr Coetzee was asking questions.  Any comment?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I deny it. I don't have knowledge of that incident.  On the 12th I then assaulted him.

MR NYOKA: But you kept on coming in - coming into the office and going out until you settled down to write.  You hit him a second time in anger when Mr Jack answered one of the questions on Mr Coetzee about Mrs Molly Blackburne to the effect that Mrs Blackburne understood the hardships of Black. When he was asked about Mrs Blackburne, that you stopped writing and in anger took a hosepipe or a sjambok and assaulted Mr Jack, saying that all Mrs Blackburne wanted was a violent overthrow of the State and one-man-one-vote.  Do you remember that incident?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I can't remember it and that is not the incident that I referred to.

MR NYOKA: Mr Jack will further say that after this assault you took him to Algoa Park Police Station and on the way you said he must be warned not to lay any complaint of assault, otherwise ... (intervention).

MR VAN DER MERWE: Excuse me, Sir, Commissioner, I have problem, difficulty in following the questioning, the noise level.

MR NYOKA: I will repose after this.

CHAIRPERSON: Put your question again.

MR NYOKA: All right.  That after the assault, Mr Nieuwoudt, you took him to Algoa Park Police Station.  On the way ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what police station?

MR NYOKA: To Algoa Park, Algoa Park.

CHAIRPERSON: Algoa Park?

MR NYOKA: Algoa Park Police Station and on the way you warned him that if he laid any complaint he will end up like Galela or Dolozi and Hashe and that the assault was actually a warm-up.  What do you say about that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Your Honour, that is nonsense, because then I would have involved myself with the disappearance of Hashe and Dolozi, whatever the case may be, but I really think that it is really impossible that I made such a statement to him.

MR NYOKA: And further, that on the day that you said you had assaulted him, in fact, you did not assault him.  You had called him in to question him why he laid a complaint of an assault and my client said you were very, very angry.
	You said you were going to deal with him on the spot and kill him on the spot.  He had to deny that.  When he denied, in relief, you took him to Warrant-Officer Coetzee's office.  
	Again he restated his denial and Mr Coetzee said he must not worry about, that is dead.  He must not take that incident seriously;  that you were just angry on that day that you assaulted him. What do you say about that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I deny that.

MR NYOKA: He would say that it was not the only time that you had assaulted him;  that on the 22nd of January 1984, you assaulted him in New Brighton Police Station with your commander, Mr Herman du Plessis?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Your Honour, that specific day I can remember quite well.  There was a meeting.  He was in the vehicle of the late Mrs Helen Josephs.  They were stopped, because they didn't have a permit to go into the Black township and Mr Du Plessis and myself were, by coincidence, that we were there at New Brighton, just before the starting of the meeting that would have taken place in this particular hall.
	They were then taken in by members of the uniform branch.  They were in the vehicle.  We had an interview with them there.  We took their names and we told them that they could continue.  That is all that I can remember of that particular incident at New Brighton.  That's all that I can remember.

MR NYOKA: My instructions are that you are making a mistake about the events.  This event I'm talking about is when you asked him why he was interfering with one of the informers, Mr Mlongwane and you assaulted him, because he had confronted Mr Mlongwane about testifying against fellow comrades and you assaulted and Mr Pitse was assaulting him at the same time, because Mr Jack had disrupted a meeting of Chief Lucas Mangope, of Chief Lucas Mangope's wife.  That was why the two of you were assaulting Mr Jack.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the event that took place on the 22nd January?

MR NYOKA: Yes, 22nd of January of 1984.  Not the other incident of Helen Josephs.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: What happened on that particular day that I can remember, I was personally present.  That was at New Brighton Police Station.  It was in New Brighton at the church where Mrs Mangope would have addressed a meeting and there was a choir that would have performed at the so-called speech that she would have given. 	Mr Jack was in front of the entrance of this church and when the choir moved on, he had an interview with them and the choir turned around and left and there was a case of intimidation laid against him.  	I didn't investigate it and I didn't have anything to do with him on that particular day.  Nothing of that I can remember.

MR NYOKA: We deny that.  We are further instructed that detainees were never assaulted by one individual policeman.  There had to be more than one.  Any comment, especially as you were a lieutenant at that stage.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: On the 12th I assaulted Mr Jack.  I was alone.  I was not present at any other assault where any other people would have assaulted him.  I didn't assault him at any other instance.

MR NYOKA: In conclusion.  Our impression is that whilst it is appreciated that you came forward, the reason why you are saying you assaulted him alone, is because you don't want other people who have not applied to be involved, their names to be involved.  That is why.
	You never assaulted him when you were alone.  You assaulted him together with other people, but you don't want to conceal - you want to conceal their names or their involvement.  	Any comment about that.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.  The law expects of me, requires of me to make a full disclosure and that is why I included this and this is why I referred to it and I do not have any knowledge of other instances.

MR NYOKA: Finally, the final question.  In 1985 on the 27th of February, Mr Jack's home was petrol bombed.  Mr Patrick Hlongwane, one of the people who petrol bombed it, who said that you instructed him amongst others in general, to do the petrol bombing, including that of Mr Jack.  Do you have any knowledge about that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Your Honour ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just - sorry, can you give us the name of the person again?

MR NYOKA: Mr Patrick Hlongwane, Hlongwane, H-L-O-N-G-W-A-N-E.  He's sitting right in front, your Worship.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Thank you very much.

MR NYOKA: Thank you.  Any comment, Mr Nieuwoudt?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Can I just ask which house or residence Mr Nyoka refers to?

MR NYOKA: In Zwede,  Mr Nieuwoudt, Zunga Street.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: According to my knowledge, Mr Jack lived in Klemia Street, New Brighton at that stage, with his uncle.  So I have no knowledge of the fact that his house in Zunga Street, Zwede, was petrol bombed. 	Regarding Mr Hlongwane,  that is nonsense.  I deny it, because Hlongwane was a witness in a particular case in 1983 and how could I then use him to attack other people.  It is untested and he is a second Matiwane.