Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-27

MR STRYDOM: In that house where you stabbed the child, is it possible that other people also were killed in that house which you are not aware of?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: No, Mr Strydom, I don't want to commit myself, I don't know.   It was a coincidence that I ended up stabbing this child, I stabbed the child with an intention.

MR STRYDOM: In your application you stated that Mr Mkhize gave the order to attack Boipatong.

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, he did issue an order.

MR STRYDOM: Was he a leader in the hostel?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, he was a leader, he was an induna of Sizwe.

MR STRYDOM: Was he an IFP leader?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: No, he was an induna of Sizwe, he was a follower of the IFP and an induna as well.

MR STRYDOM: And Damara, would the same apply to him?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: He too was an induna here in Sizwe, insofar as war is concerned.

MR STRYDOM: No further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

MS TANZER: I have just one question, when did your brother, Themba, take on the surname Mabota?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Will the speaker please repeat the question?

MS TANZER: When did your brother, Themba, take on the surname, Mabota?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: You know, sister, I don't want to commit myself, I don't know when he adopted that surname.   I don't know whether it was following on the white wedding of my mother or not.   I was not born when this Mabota story came.  I think I was still in my mother's veins.

MS TANZER: What is your mother's surname?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Khubeka, my mother's surname is Khubeka, that is my mother's surname.

MS TANZER: Is it not correct that your brother took the name Mabota after he joined the hostel?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: My brother's ID book bears Mabota and his birth certificate bears the names Themba Daniel Mabota, that's all.   Mine has Khubeka.   I don't know about this Khubeka which Nosenga is talking about.

MS TANZER: So you have different fathers then?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: I want to explain again, yes, we have different fathers.   I did say that my father, or should I say in the case of my father, two trains collided, did you ever see two trains colliding, so two trains collided here, two Khubekas came together, that's when my mother explained to me, or that's what my mother explained to me in her dying bed in hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: Madam, do you have any other questions?

MS TANZER: I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you, chairperson, just one aspect.  Mr Khubeka, you told us about a meeting that you went to the day after the massacre to do with people who were attacking the hostel, or intending to attack the hostel.   Did I hear you correctly?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: The meeting that was convened on the morning of the 18th was a meeting of people who were to come to attack Kwamadala Hostel, that was the day on which we went out as far as the robots, where we were stopped by the police, and we were told that indeed the people who were coming to attack us had been stopped, Mr Mthembe told us so.

MR LAX: Yes.   How many people were at that meeting?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: If I were to estimate, the entire hostel, women and children, all of us were at the arena, we could have been one thousand and something, including children and women, we had all gathered at the stadium.

MR LAX: And that was early in the morning?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, in the morning.

MR LAX: And Mr Mthembo spoke to you there?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: No, he spoke to the community of Kwamadala at the stadium, not with me.

MR LAX: Yes, I used you in the plural.

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Thank you very much.

MR LAX: Thank you, chairperson.

ADV SIGODI: Was Victor Kwesa present on the day of the attack?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: May the question please be repeated?

ADV SIGODI: Was Victor Kwesa present on the day of the attack?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: I do not recall, because if I still remember very well, Victor Kwesa is my neighbour at the hostel, he was arrested before the attack of Boipatong.   This is not a hearsay, I am saying something that I saw happening, he was slapped by police at the time of his arrest.

ADV SIBANYONI: You said on the day of the attack you were from toyi-toying, what was happening, where were you from exactly?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Now and then, day after day at Kwamadala Hostel, every day, myself and Mr Qambelani Buthelezi would convene a Youth Brigade meeting at Kwamadala Hostel, trying to prepare ourselves for rallies in terms of singing and dress codes, so that we could look good.

ADV SIBANYONI: Mr Dlamini says your brother, Themba Mabota, was in the same house, but you are saying you didn't see him during the attack, did I understand you correctly?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: Yes, I did not see him, I don't want to tell a lie, I did not.

ADV SIBANYONI: If you couldn't see your own brother during the attack, is it not possible that Nosenga was also present but you couldn't see him?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: I am saying had Nosenga been present, I know youth members or the youth members, I know the whole youth, I have 18 youths who sing bass, and I have 32 tenors, I, not to mention girls, there were so many of them, I don't know Nosenga, I had a list of all the choristers of the choir that I conducted.   Had Nosenga been involved in this Boipatong thing, I would like to say that we were taken short... (intervention).

ADV SIBANYONI: Can I just interrupt you there?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: I'm very sorry myself.

ADV SIBANYONI: It was until you were arrested that you have never seen Nosenga at the hostel?

BUMBUMONT GOMERES THEMBISO KHUBEKA: I would like to say that had he been present, I would say so, Nosenga was not present, he doesn't know these things, I don't know him.   I know the people from Kwamadala, all of them, by sight.

ADV SIBANYONI: Okay, I'm answered, thank you, Mr Chair-person.

CHAIRPERSON: Could Mr Botha, wherever he is, come forward please?   We have now come to the close of the present session of these hearings.   This is largely due to intervening commitments which I have to attend to, and that being the case, we can no longer proceed with the evidence of Mr Sibongolele Mkolose Mkhize and Mr Nosenga, who are the only two remaining applicants.   When we resume next, we will deal with their evidence and hear their applications.  Before we rise, just for the record, do you confirm, Mr Strydom, that you represent Mr Themba Khosa, who is the implicated person in these proceedings, and Chief Mangosuthu Buthelezi, who are also implicated persons in these proceedings?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, we do appear for Themba Khosa.   At this stage we're not appearing for Chief Minister Buthelezi.   I said in your office that we did, but that is not correct.   I may just mention that we also appear for the IFP as a party, political party, but not for the individual Mr Mangosuthu Buthelezi.

CHAIRPERSON: If you do not mind, would you just stand back and allow Mr Botha to come to the mike please?   You will return to your seat shortly.   Mr Botha, do you confirm that you appear for Mr Peens, Mr Greeff, is that right?

MR BOTHA: Indeed, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the police officer by the name of Shaka, who appears on his behalf?

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, I've been in contact with the law officer of the police in Vereeniging, apparently Mr Shaka did apply for legal representation, but as yet we haven't any instruction from the police... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.