Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-12

ADV STEENKAMP: Honourable Members, thank you for the indulgence.  We're ready for the next matter, Mr Chairman.  The applicant being Mr Manyamala, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Advocate Steenkamp.  For the purposes of the record, it is Monday, 12th October, 1998.  It's a sitting of the Amnesty Committee in the application of Saint Mkululi Manyamala, matter number
AM 3150/96.  The panel is chaired by myself, Denzel Potgieter.  I'm assisted by Advocate Gcabashe on my right and Mr Sibanyoni on my left. 
	Mr Steenkamp, just for the record.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I'm Andre Steenkamp, the Evidence Leader.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.   Mr Shayi?

MR SHAYI: Mr Chairman, I am Gama Shayi, I am for the applicant, Mr Saint Mkululi Manyamala.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
	Advocate Steenkamp anything that ...[inaudible]

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Just for the record's sake, as far as the requirements of Section 19 and 18 is concerned specifically you will see it from the record, Mr Chairman, there was actually two victims in this matter, the first one, Mr Willem Stephanus Fronemann who was actually killed in this incident and then there was also Mr Rush Jennifer Barker who was shot and injured in this incident.
	My information is the following, Mr Chairman, regarding the tracing of this witness.  She was notified but the notification was sent back to the Commission without being filed on her.  The other thing is, Mr Chairman, I specifically asked the Investigation Unit again to go and see if they can find Mrs Barker but to no avail.  She left a previous address.  Certain enquiries were done in the specific vicinity and even information which we were trying to obtain from the old security firm that used to work at her house was also to no avail.  
	As far as we are concerned, Mr Chairman, it was not possible to trace the victim at all and I would move to ask the Committee, Mr Chairman with your indulgence, that we proceed with this matter as it stands.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Advocate Steenkamp.  In the light of the circumstances that you have placed on record we are satisfied that all reasonable steps have been taken to locate the single remaining victim in this matter and that in the circumstances we will proceed to hear the application.
	Mr Shayi, do you want to put anything on record before ...[inaudible]

MR SHAYI: Nothing before, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Which language are you going to use, Mr Manyamala?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: I'm going to use isiZulu.

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibanyoni.
	Mr Shayi, over to you.

MR SHAYI: Mr Manyamala, you have brought an application for amnesty for an incident which took place on the 3rd of February 1993 and which led to multiple convictions and sentences, is that correct?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHAYI: Now just for your background, where were you born and where were you resident between these incidents?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: When these incidents happened I was staying at Zola North in Soweto where I was born and grew up.

MR SHAYI: And how far have you gone in your   education?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: I went as far as standard nine.

MR SHAYI: Now how was the situation in Zola North or in  your locality when this incident happened?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: The situation at Zola North were I grew up was such that there wasn't much of violence.  We don't have hostels nearby, thank you.

MR SHAYI: Were you a member of any political organisation at that stage?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Yes.

MR SHAYI: And which political organisation were you belonging to?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: I was a member of the African National Congress.

MR SHAYI: ...[inaudible] were you a straight supporter or were you a card-carrying member of the said organisation?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: I was a card-carrying supporter of the ANC.

MR SHAYI: Now were there any duties that you were doing at that stage for the organisation?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: I was an activist at the time.

MR SHAYI: And how active were you?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Before this incident happened I had already recruited a self-defence unit which was under the ANC.

MR SHAYI: And what were the duties of the SDU's?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: The duty of the SDU was to defend the people.

MR SHAYI: Defend the people against who specifically?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Between 1992 and 1993 people were being attacked by the IFP in Soweto.  Those were problematic people together with the security forces.

MR SHAYI: Were these people who were attacking the people in Soweto residents in Soweto as well?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: ...[no English translation]

CHAIRPERSON: We might have had some technical difficulty, won't you just repeat the question, Mr Shayi?

MR SHAYI: These people who were attacking residents of Soweto, were they also residents in Soweto?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Yes, they were residents at the hostels in Soweto.

MR SHAYI: Were they members of any political organisation?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: I would not say that they were members or not but as far as I'm concerned they were followers of the IFP.

MR SHAYI: And what necessitated the formation of these SDU's?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: As I have already explained that people in Soweto were being killed and victimised by these IFP followers, that is the reason that led to the formation of the SDU's.

MR SHAYI: Was this option of forming SDU's formulated by the residents of Soweto or was it an instruction from any political organisation that you were affiliated to?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: If I were to take you back to the time during the negotiations, shortly after the unbanning of the ANC people were being killed, government on the other side was negotiating with liberation movements so that people complained and they appealed that a structure be put in place so that they could be protected.

MR SHAYI: And who came with the solution?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Shortly, it was the community that came up with this idea.

MR SHAYI: Was it taken to the political organisation itself?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Yes, here before me I have a statement or a submission that was submitted by the ANC before this very same Committee.  There is a passage where the ANC clearly states that people were complaining and appealing to the ANC that a structure be put in place so that they can be protected.  	I don't know whether it is permissible for me to continue explaining about this.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I see that you have the ANC Submission to the Truth Commission.  Do you want to draw our attention to a specific section, specific page in that submission or ...

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: I would refer you to paragraph - would you please bear with me, I'm trying to locate the page.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please take your time.

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Okay.  Chairperson, I would request that we proceed for now, my lawyer is trying to locate the page.

MR SHAYI: So are you in a position to say that the action by the community was sanctioned, positively sanctioned by the political organisation, namely the ANC?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: Yes, the complaints of the community were complaints that were understood by the ANC, realising that people were dying like flies.

MR SHAYI: Now in the execution of their duties were the SDU's allowed to use any weapons whatsoever?

SAINT MKULULI MANYAMALA: I think everybody knows that the ANC is a non-violent organisation but at the time the people who were attacking the community were using arms and therefore we were forced to do the same, use arms to defend ourselves.

MR SHAYI: So do you know whether the said arms were licensed on not?