Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-05

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now I want to suggest to you that that is not what Mr Nkabinde told this Committee.  If I understand Mr Nkabinde's evidence correctly, the purpose of the - you use the word operation - was for repossession, was to obtain arms.  Can you explain why there's a difference?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: There's no difference between the two statements.  To go there, we were going to look for arms and look for a car and money and again Mr Diederick Jacobs.  Nkabinde said we were going to look for arms, it doesn't mean that after we got those arms we should leave, we should leave PAC's target behind.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You obtained arms and you took money from the Jacobs family, why didn't you then go to the Transkei?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Whilst we were at Jacobs house, when he tried to run he touched a button, maybe it was for secret reasons because we heard alarms outside which said to us that we are not able to take the car so that we'll be able to go to Transkei, so the mission was aborted because of that particular reason on that day. Then we stayed until the following day.  On the third day we started with the second operation to look for transport.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Right, we'll get to the second operation shortly.  Why didn't you kill Mrs Jacobs and the young woman that you found there, Heloise Jacobs?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: There was no order that Mr Stanton was a member of the right-wing organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think the question was why didn't you kill the rest of the Jacobs family, not the Stanton family.  The question was why didn't you kill the wife and the children of Mr Jacobs?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Monde said Diederick Jacobs is a target so I know in politics that we won't all belong to the same organisation if we are from the same family.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I want to suggest to you that Mr Jacobs was killed because when he was confronted by you, he shouted to his wife, he said to his wife "get a gun", that's why you killed him?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: It is not like that.  When he said bring the gun, where were we at the time?  What I want to add again, I want to inform you that the person who was close to Mr Jacobs was myself together with her child.  It was Heloise and the father and myself.  I don't know when did he say that.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr van den Berg, can I just clarify something here please?
	Mr Mofokeng, was there a meeting, a planning meeting before you went out on this first operation?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Before we left I had promises which I had received from Monde that he will take me for military training therefore there was a day where I met with Kopane and Thabang and Monde.  We met.

ADV BOSMAN: And did you attend a meeting where the first applicant was also present, before you went out, did you also meet with the first applicant?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Was it at this meeting that you were told that Mr Jacobs is a right-wing member?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: No.

ADV BOSMAN: At what stage were you told that Mr Jacobs was a target because he belongs to the right-wing?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: In the morning of that day of the incident I was together with Monde.  I knew, I was with him only.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Mr van den Berg.

MR VAN DEN BERG: If we move to the armed robbery involving the Stantons. If we have a look at paragraph 11 of Exhibit A, that's the affidavit by Mr Nkabinde, is it correct that you were armed with a shotgun?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Do you mean when we went to Stanton's place?  Yes I had a gun but I don't remember what kind of a gun it was.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Was it a handgun, was it a rifle, what was it?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: It was a handgun, sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So then what Mr Nkabinde says here that you were armed with a shotgun, that's incorrect?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Can you please explain the difference between the two?

CHAIRPERSON: A shotgun is usually a rifle and it shoots cartridges as opposed to bullets.

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: It was a handgun therefore.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Where did you get the handgun from?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: It came from Diederick Jacobs house.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Between the time that you murdered Mr Jacobs and committed an armed robbery at the Jacobs' house and at the time when the armed robbery was committed at the Stanton's residence, did you receive any training in the use of that handgun?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: No.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So you had absolutely no idea how it worked?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I knew how you can operate a gun.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Presumably like me, you had seen it on television?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: No, not that way.  From 1976 we had riots in Soweto.  At times there were many guns, where you would have friends who owned guns, then they would just show me how to shoot.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not very difficult, Mr van den Berg, I'm not a shotist but if you know how to get the safety catch off then don't you just have to pull the trigger?  I mean it's not very complicated.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I'm in your hands, Mr Chairperson, I've absolutely no idea.
	At the Stanton residence, if I understand correctly, you were in the lounge when Mrs Stanton and one of her daughters was, where you tied them up, is that correct?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Who brought the young boy into the lounge?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: That's myself.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And you were the person who assaulted him?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I did not assault him.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can I refer you to the bundle of documents, page 47?

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's a question - when you say you didn't assault him, you didn't hit him or beat him?  Because I think if I was lying asleep in bed and somebody came and picked me up and carried me to the lounge, I would consider that an assault?  Did you do nothing else but other than to carry him, make him walk?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: At Stanton's child, I was inside the yard.  When I returned in the house, I heard that boy screaming and he was alone and it was dark.  Then quickly for to relieve him I should bring him closer to his or her parents, so I took that boy next to his parents, from the bedroom to the lounge.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Was the boy threatened in any way?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: According to my observation the person who was in the house was not able to handle that situation so what I did, I decided to take the child and bring him closer to the parents.

MR VAN DEN BERG: If I refer you to the bundle of documents, page 47, this is an extract of the criminal trial of the judgment in your criminal trial and here the following appears
"Mr Andrew Kirk was called, he arrived at the Stanton home during the course of the robbery.  He was also taken captive, tied up and his watch was taken.  There was a threat to kill the child, Timothy, who as he puts it, was knocked around a bit and subsequently tied up."
Do you know about that?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I know nothing about that, sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You were not the person who tied him up?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: That's not myself, sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: We have reference again to your amnesty application, on page 5 of the application, paragraph 10(c).  To the question which is asked there
"Did you benefit in any way financially or otherwise?"
The answer is "no".  do you see that?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: If you refer to Exhibit A and that's the affidavit of Mr Nkabinde, paragraph 10, the portion there says
"We surrendered everything to the commander."
Do you see that?  That was after the Jacobs murder.

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And then paragraph 16, the first two lines
"We drove out of Parkview to Naledi where we offloaded the goods and surrendered everything to the commander."
Do you see that?  Is that correct?  Everything that you took you gave to Monde?