Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-05

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well pardon me.  Well I thought the question wanted me to tell exactly what I can say.  Well please pardon me if I was really going into detail with regard to my feelings, the pain that I feel, that I felt throughout, because my torture of Reverend I made myself no more available in the Church.
	Let me say, I will just say in general, as the Committee has just told me, I don't want to be very long, the Lutheran Church Reverend please pardon me.  I am your child.  I grew under your Church.  However, because of the job there was nothing I could do because the job was part and parcel of my attachment with the family.  In those days that is how it happened.  I just want you to accept my apology and do forgive me.
	With regard to Mr Chikororo, well I am so disappointed I feel so disappointed.  I am sorry the Committee doesn't want me to say in detail.  I will be saying more than I am saying now.  His mother is a relative to my wife.  He normally comes to my place and I don't have much to say with them.  I don't know whether they know exactly that I was involved in the torture of Mr Chikororo.  But anyway not to say so much as I was limited already let me ask for forgiveness.
	Mr Mahumela, although you might think that I am lying that I didn't beat you, the torture and the sufferings that you experienced I was also going through.  Wherever I wronged you please forgive me.  I do admit that you suffered extensively in my involvement.  And so many other people that I could not mention because these were not the only people who submitted our names in the Committee.  There were so many people who were tortured ...(intervention)

MR MEYER: Mr Nesamari I am going to cut you short there.   You said in your statement, paragraph 42
"You can safely say that no person was ever seriously assaulted, ever had serious wounds inflicted or needed medical treatment".
Now you've already testified that Mr Chikororo, for instance, was severely beaten and assaulted, what is the reason for the allegation you made in paragraph 42?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well it's true I did say, I gave evidence to the effect that I agree that it was falsified.  The reason why I said that I thought I was defending myself and protecting myself.  I just didn't want to be very open that the Reverend and other people, or the victims were really severely beaten and they were hurt so much that they had to go to the hospital.  I thought I was protecting myself.  Because one thing for sure the reason why I made my application I didn't have much knowledge as to where it would lead me, myself and the family.  That is why I was trying to be very evasive.
	Also subsequently as we were being consulted by the legal advisor they then directed us and said to us the Committee wanted absolute truth so that they will be able to consider whether you will be forgiven.  I was then eventually free although doubting, especially with regard to the colleagues as to whether they will be able to say the truth.  That is why I have always been saying or dodging, or I didn't know whether I will side with the victims or the perpetrators who are my colleagues.  I didn't ...(indistinct) them.  Today I think they have said exactly the truth and I am so free that I had to say the truth.  And these people were seriously injured, they deserved to go to the hospital.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you saying that today the victims have said the truth and that's why you are now able to say the truth?  I just want to make sure that the translation came through properly.
	No translation is coming through.

INTERPRETER: Just repeat for the last time please.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was it translated properly.  Your evidence came through as saying now that the victims have told the truth you are now able to tell this Committee the truth?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: The truth that I am saying now is based on the fact that all the various methods were used with regard to the victims.  I could hear as it was being elucidated that those methods were used.  That is why I am now free.  Well I don't know if there are other things which were not said.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I have understood you properly.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  You are also aware of the fact that as a result of the assaults civil proceedings were instituted against the Government, the Minister of Safety and Security in the former Venda, and the victims claimed damages from the then Venda government, you are aware of that?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes I am quite aware.

MR MEYER: Is it also correct that with regard to those civil proceedings you made a statement which is contained on page 105 Mr Chairman.  Let me show it to you.  Is that your statement?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes it is mine.

MR MEYER: Do you agree that you stated here, in the last paragraph
"While in my care and custody the suspect was not in any way injured, ill-treated, assaulted or interrogated".
This is with regard to Reverend Posiwa.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: It is true.

MR MEYER: And this statement is false?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: It is true.

MR MEYER: What is the objective you were seeking by making this false statement?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well in those days, in the then government under which I was working, as police or as a policeman, let me just say as a policeman it was our own knowledge that we will be able to protect the then government of the day, in any form that one will - or in any situation that will really lead into criticising the government, that is why the statement that was put falsely was meant to protect the government so that the government could not be sued and it had to pay a lot of money.  That is why I lied.

MR MEYER: Can we just go back to the question that was put to you by Judge Khampepe about the fact that you can now tell your story because of what the victims said.  I am not clear, I am not sure if I understand you correctly.  Do you mean that your memory has been refreshed by what the victims are saying or what do you exactly mean by that?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well I was trying to explain that I didn't have trust in my colleagues, especially in my seniors as to whether they will be able to say how they tortured these people.  That is why I was saying after hearing whatever they said, the way they tortured these people, especially with regard to Ramaligela's evidence as to how he tortured the people, that is why I am able to say I am now free.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I interpose Mr Meyer?

MR MEYER: Certainly.

SISI KHAMPEPE: It's getting more clouded.  I was on the same page with him, I am afraid I am getting to be on a different wavelength.
	You are saying the reason why you are now able to admit to the assaults as you have before us now in your viva voce admitted, is because of having listened to the evidence of your colleagues about their own involvement in the assaults of persons mentioned in paragraph 15?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well what I am saying I am basing it on the statements that we made in which they were not really putting or correlating truthfully.  I am not saying what I have explained on what I have seen and say I will go in line with what they have said.  I was basing it on the statements that we put, mine, which was not very truthfully put, or I could not put things in full detail, or in detail.  Like in the Reverends alluded to by my legal advisor in which I explained that Mr Chikororo was beaten and he suffered severely.  That is why in the other statement I didn't deem it fit that he would have to get medication.  That is why I am trying to clear that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I have nothing further at this stage.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEYER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg do you have any questions you would like to put to this applicant?