Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-04

MR LOWIES: I beg to differ with you Sir, my colleagues all nod in confirmation that you said you were never in your life tortured and I like this expression "never in my life" and I used it in connection with Peens as well and you said never ever.  You are telling lies.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying Peens tortured me before I actually went to the hostel at the time when I was still staying in the township.  This pertained to a vehicle, nobody could not have known Peens or should I say people around the township knew Peens.

MR LOWIES: Another aspect, I also asked you were you ever in your life tortured where Rooikop was present and you said no.  Now we hear that he was present during the arrest of the motor vehicle, of yourself of the motor vehicle theft?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying Rooikop was present, I did not say he tortured me, he did not torture me.  This gentleman is trying to protect the image of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, would you please listen to the question and just answer the question correctly?  You will recall that a series of questions were asked of you in connection with being tortured by the police.  Peens, Rooikop and Chaka, and I clarified the question to you saying the question is were you ever tortured at any stage in the presence of Rooikop, not that Rooikop tortured you, that question was put to you and your answer was no?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I said no.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: But then that was then a lie because we now hear that in the motor car theft case he was present, not so?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes they were present, he was present but he did not torture me.  He did not torture me, I was tortured by Peens.  That was before I actually went to KwaMadala Hostel, I was still staying in the township.  I am not telling lies, I cannot tell lies before the TRC.

MR LOWIES: Let's just check.  Did Peens torture you in connection with the robbery case?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said it's a robbery and a vehicle.

MR LOWIES: The way I understood it ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, is the position this, Peens and Chaka have tortured you before?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They threatened me at the Vereeniging Police Station.

CHAIRPERSON: No, we know that, we've dealt with that but they've tortured you at some stage?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You know, Peens using the tube?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: This was in connection with robbery is it, was this in connection with the robbery?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: But I thought and you can assist me in this regard, that you were arrested on two occasions by Peens, one for robbery and one for motor car theft?  Is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that's what I said.

MR LOWIES: Right and the arrests were at different places, different times, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Correct.

MR LOWIES: And the first one for which you were arrested was the motor car theft, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that is correct.

MR LOWIES: The second one for the robbery, you were also tortured by Peens, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Correct.

MR LOWIES: And the second occasion, that is now in connection with the robbery.  What did he do to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He applied some electric shocks on me using a tube to blind me or to cover my face.

MR LOWIES: Yes, anything else?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He applied electric shocks on me and after that he put a tube over me.  He could not - Peens would not arrest just simply arrest you without torturing you.

MR LOWIES: Now I understand if I'm not mistaken that Peens and Chaka used to work together?  Is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, they were not working together.  But the one person who tortured me who was Peens.  Rooikop was working with them and others.

MR LOWIES: So is your evidence then that pertaining to the motor car theft case, Chaka was not involved, he was not present, he didn't do anything to you?  Or did he also take part in the assault?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying Chaka was present but he did not torture me, the one person who was torturing me was Peens.

CHAIRPERSON: This thing is taking us to some point, let's get to the point now.  I think we've canvassed this aspect sufficiently.

MR LOWIES: You see, the reason why I'm asking you all these questions, Sir, is I'm putting it to you herein lies your motive to implicate Peens falsely.  He had been involved in arrests previously and on your version he assaulted you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I would not implicate him, what reason do I have to implicate him?

MR LOWIES: I've just put it to you.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Would you please repeat the question I did not get the question.

MR LOWIES: The question is simple.  Because Peens arrested you previously, because on your version he tortured you before, you are placing him at the scene of the attack in Boipatong and you make him play a leading role.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I am not implicating him falsely, I was present but even my legal counsel was not there that evening.  You see you are trying to protect the IFP or he was trying to protect the IFP and the police at the time.

MR LOWIES: Who was trying to protect the police at the time?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying the manner in which you are asking me questions, you present yourself as if you're trying to cover up for the wrong deeds or should I say protect the leadership of the IFP and the police for what roles they played.  I cannot come here to tell a lie.

MR LOWIES: Do you want to answer the question as to whether you have a motive to implicate Peens?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying that I cannot implicate Peens falsely, he was present when people were being massacred at Boipatong, I don't know him, I cannot implicate him wrongly or falsely.  There are so many police that I know, why is it that I decided to pick Peens of all the police that I know.

MR LOWIES: Probably because you hate him the most?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not hate any police.  If the police are involved I will say so and if they are not involved I will also say so concerning the Boipatong Massacre.  People are parentless today, people don't have families that are taking care of them today, they had lost their people or the members of the family who were taking care of them.

MR LOWIES: And they were killed by you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was present, Inkatha and the police.

MR LOWIES: You killed people not so?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I am not the only one, I am saying Inkatha and the police were present when people were being killed.  Do you think I can kill 45 people single handedly?  Well please clarify your question.

MR LOWIES: Sir, I have news for you, I'm not going to be drawn into a debate with you, but I want to put the following to you.  You have shown a tendency on your own version to falsely implicate people.  You've implicated Mswake and Bapi on your own version falsely before and there you didn't even have a motive.  Comments?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There is no one who is falsely implicated.  If there are leaders of the IFP that I know, how would I implicate them?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, listen properly to the question.  What is being put to you is that you are falsely implicating Peens in the Boipatong attack, you've denied that and then what is being put to you further is that in the past you have falsely implicated persons, that is Mswake and Bapi who have done nothing and because of that what is being put to you is that you have a tendency of just doing that, falsely implicating people and that is why today you are again falsely implicating Peens.  What is your comment to that?