Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, Mr Chair, we used strong language, it was a serious situation and we were serious and these quotations are all a good reflection of the climate that existed at the time.

MR PRINSLOO: Would you say or would you disagree that this rhetoric - all these contributions and the things that were discussed in Parliament etc., in any way contributed to decisions taken by the applicants?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, I think so, the reply is positive.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Derby-Lewis himself, do you know him as a
military person?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Well, we knew that he was a military person who for many years did military service, we knew him as such - he was Commandant Clive Derby-Lewis in his time.

MR PRINSLOO: Doctor, could you please tell the Committee what the relationship was between Mr Clive Derby-Lewis and the late Doctor Andries Treurnicht?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: The relationship was very good, very good.

MR PRINSLOO: Could it have been possible that the late Doctor Treurnicht could have discussed intimate matters with Mr Derby-Lewis with regard to policy etc.?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, quite possibly.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: Doctor Hartzenberg, did the Conservative Party - before the 10th of April 1993, do or say anything to induce any one of it's members to commit any particular act in order to bring about chaos in South Africa?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: I would reply as follows Mr Chair, statements made by leaders could have been interpreted by  people that they had to take action, for example statements like: "The third freedom struggle had started" and a whole series
of other statements.  I myself made very strong statements and it's quite possible that people could read that as that they had to commit certain deeds.

GEORGE BIZOS: The question of not to take action or to commit certain deeds, the question was: "Whether anyone in the Conservative Party leadership did or said anything prior to the 10th, which could reasonably be interpreted by any one of the Conservative Party members as a licence to commit any act which would bring about chaos in South Africa"?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Sir, you say did or said, apart from Mr Koos Botha, I don't think there was anybody whom I'm aware of, who did anything but there were many statements - many things were said.  Mr Koos Botha in own application said "The  third freedom struggle had started" and that this had actually induced him to do what he did and it could have had a similar effect on other people.

GEORGE BIZOS: You told us of the action of Mr Koos Botha, Mr Koos Botha's action can hardly be described - can it, as an act calculated to incite others to bring about chaos in South Africa?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: That is your judgement, I don't know how Mr Koos Botha judged things - that is the applicants' subjective opinion, not yours or mine but the applicants'.

GEORGE BIZOS: You were asked for an opinion and you expressed it towards the end of your evidence about the subjective feelings of the two applicants, I am asking you whether blowing up a school is calculated to bring about chaos in South Africa which was described by one of the applicants as: "The killing of a couple of hundred White people as a result of the action, which in turn must have resulted in the killing of hundreds of other and the eventual civil war between - particularly between Black and White, can you please tell us whether either the action of Mr Koos Botha or any statement that has been made by any leader of the Conservative Party could be interpreted as leading to that chaos?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, isn't ...[intervention]

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Mr Chair, I think I've replied more than once to the matter of whether anybody had said anything.  As far as blowing up the school is concerned, the school had been promised to people and suddenly this school was blown up and  people could get cross, they could do certain things and this could set off a whole chain reaction - it's a theoretical question, anything is possible.  It's not a question for which there exists proof or in connection with which something else had happened, it is a theoretical question, it could have led to it.

GEORGE BIZOS: I am not asking you about a theoretical question, I am asking you - quoting the evidence of the first applicant in this case, and for you to please tell us as the leader of the Conservative Party, which member of the Conservative Party and when, made any statement which could have been interpreted as a licence to commit the act that I have described?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Sir, I'm stating again, Mr Koos Botha in his defence in Parliament, stated that the term: "The third freedom struggle had started" had him go into action - similar statements had been made, I don't have them all in writing.  I myself said serious things and it is possible that people could have interpreted it as their right or duty to do something.

GEORGE BIZOS: In relation to Mr Koos Botha, your colleague in Parliament, Mr Prinsloo said that Mr Botha was alone of - in the 30.000 people at the Voortrekker Monument which put that interpretation - his, Botha's interpretation, into effect, is that correct? - I'm sorry, it was du Plessis.

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: He said it and I think you also have to regard that against the background of the attack which Mr Koos Botha had made on the Conservative Party.  Mr du Plessis then said to him: "But we didn't give you the instruction, you committed the deed, in the meanwhile you turned your back on us and now you expect of us to protect you", that is a natural reaction on the spur of the moment.
	He had to get up immediately after this person and that was the point of view that he expressed, that is entirely correct but the fact is that regardless of that Mr Koos Botha received amnesty and Mr du Plessis drafted a motion in this case which he submitted to the CP Congress on the 3rd of October, in which he asked the Congress to support Mr Clive Derby-Lewis in his application for amnesty.

GEORGE BIZOS: Can we please confine ourselves to answering the question Doctor Hartzenberg?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: I attempted to reply to your question.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, let me put it to you again, if anything that was said at the Voortrekker Monument is relied upon by the applicants or you here, how consistent is that with a statement of Mr du Plessis in Parliament representing the Conservative Party, that out of the 30.000 people that were at the monument he, Koos Botha was the only one to interpret it as a licence to damage a school, is it consistent or is it inconsistent?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Sir, it is exactly consistent with the statement made by Mr Oliver Tambo in the submission of the ANC, where he says: "If I were approached to give permission, I would naturally say: "Not" or: "No" but I would understand that somebody would act in that way"

GEORGE BIZOS: Can we leave Mr Tambo's statement to another question?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Sir, it's the same principle that applies, it's exactly the same principle.

GEORGE BIZOS: Doctor Hartzenberg, you have not been called to do an analysis of principles, you have been asked to give evidence on facts from which the Committee may make a decision.  Please listen to the questions and answer them ...[intervention]

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Sir, ...[intervention]

GEORGE BIZOS: Please do not interrupt me and you can leave the argument and the other facts and answer of other questions in their turn, please answer my question which is a simple one.  Is what Mr du Plessis said in Parliament, consistent with an understanding that there was a licence to commit acts of violence by the CP, is it consistent or is it inconsistent Doctor Hartzenberg?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Mr Chair, may I just gain clarity on a point of order?

CHAIRPERSON: Just say yes or no to this question.