Amnesty Hearings — Phokeng — 1996-05-20

MR CURRIN: It was just said to me. I am in a difficult situation, that I don't know who has been sent and I haven't spoken to that person and I am not sure that that person knows precisely the particulars in detail, the actual issue, that we need clarified. It would certainly be preferable to be able to spend a short while just discussing that with the witness before we call him.  But if necessary, we can call him right away, but I would prefer a short consultation.

HASSAN MALL: To enable you to have a consultation with this witness, I think it is appropriate that we should take the adjournment now instead of breaking into the proceedings at 11:15.  I would urge upon parties to try and be as
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expeditious as possible.

MR CURRIN: Thank you.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.  We will take a short adjournment to enable counsel ...
HEARING ADJOURNS
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ON RESUMPTION

MR CURRIN: We have now received an instruction that the African National Congress is in the process of preparing a position which they intend submitting to the Truth Commission and that will be the representation by the African National Congress and that there should be no other representation in any separate amnesty application place on record by the African National Congress.
	We have explained to them our difficulties, and when I came through a few moments ago, I was told that the people from the Rustenburg office have now gone back to the office to try and sort out the confusion.  So we find ourselves in a difficult position.  We are not at this stage able to lead the evidence that we had hoped.

HASSAN MALL: Very well. In the light of what you have just said, I call upon Mr Mpshe to indicate whether he has any comments to make on the document that was handed in by Mr Currin at the beginning of the hearing yesterday.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, the documented handed in by my colleague by way of introduction, was studied and perused by myself, in consultation with the five victims yesterday evening.  Mr Chairman, upon perusal thereof, it emerged that the contents of the document are not in dispute at all, and we have since found that there is nothing, absolutely nothing to comment that may necessitate the calling or substantiation thereof by means of oral evidence.  This I have relayed to my colleague.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: It will be on record that the contents of this document are not contentious as far as you are concerned, Mr Mpshe.  Very well.
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JUDGE WILSON: Could I clarify one point.  You refer to victims. I take it you mean the sons of the victim?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: (Indistinct).

HASSAN MALL: Very well, Mr Mpshe, are you proposing to lead evidence?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I am ready to call evidence if the Chair wants me to call evidence.  I was of the opinion as a - referring back to what was said in chambers, that my colleague was going to call the third ANC member to put on record what was said in chambers and thereafter I call my witness.

HASSAN MALL: I think things have changed since then, and I think you should now proceed with leading such witnesses as you consider proper.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I stand corrected, Mr Chairman.
RECORDING SWITCHED OFF - ON RESUMPTION
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I then call upon Aaron Mokgatle as a witness to testify.

AARON MOKGATLE: (Duly sworn, states).

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Mokgatle, is it correct that you are 58 years of age?

MR AARON MOKGATLE: Yes, that's true.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The deceased, Glad Mokgatle, was your father?

MR AARON MOKGATLE: Yes, that's true, Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You are the eldest son in the family?

MR AARON MOKGATLE: Yes, that's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: There are two other brothers younger than yourself?

MR AARON MOKGATLE: That is correct, Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Tell this Committee as, or tell the Committee as to where your mother may be.

MR AARON MOKGATLE: My mother passed away.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When did she pass away?

MR AARON MOKGATLE: It was in 1982.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: 1982 or 1992? Did you want to say 1992?

MR AARON MOKGATLE: 1992.  It was in 1992.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Mokgatle, you will recall that myself and yourself and other members of the family had several consultations wherein I explained to you as to the purpose of this gathering.

MR AARON MOKGATLE: Yes, I remember that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You mean that you are willing to come and testify?

MR AARON MOKGATLE: Yes, that's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You were in yesterday when the witnesses were testifying?

MR AARON MOKGATLE: I was here.
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Exactly what first applicant, Boy Diali and
second applicant, Christopher Mokgatle testified to this Committee?

MR AARON MOKGATLE: I understood them perfectly well.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I want you to tell the Committee as to the position or the status of your father, the deceased, in the troubled matters.

MR AARON MOKGATLE: Are you referring to what he was doing here?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: (Indistinct) matters.

MR AARON MOKGATLE: Are you referring to his position here at Phokeng?  He is the uncle to the chief and being the uncle he was working hand-in-hand with the chief.  He worked with Chief Leboni for quite a long time.  Even if you are people, there must be conflict between you.
	It happened that there was a conflict.  He worked, together with the chief - I can't remember until when, but at some point there was a misunderstanding between the two.  And my father temporarily left the job.  I think when the chief was removed from the people, because of the government, Mr Glad was not here at the offices.  After the chief have left, Mr Glad took his chairmanship again.  My father continued with his job, his work was the community.  By that time the chief was not available when Mr Glad continued working with the community.  
	By that time he had someone to work with, who was working with him, while the chief was away.  Mr Tumahole's
position, he was a hand to the chief or an assistant to the chief, when the chief was not there, he occupied the chief's seat.  
	Thereafter he worked with Mr Cecil Tumohole.  Because 
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of the government of the day, there was no working together
amongst the two. Because there was a time when Mr Mangope called us to Mafikeng and he asked us, the Baphokeng tribe to tell him where was our chief.  And we replied by saying the chief was not available, but here at Phokeng, we don't have problems with the chief, the problems we have we have an uncle to the chief, who is Mr Cecil Tumohole, and we also have the grandmother who is the chieftainess.  That's what we told him at Mafikeng that these people are the people who rule the Baphokeng tribe, and we don't see -  and we don't have any problems since Mr Laboni is not available.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You will recall when I spoke to you, that I said specifically our intention is not to remind you of the pain that you once felt, which pain may still be still in subsistence, but I request that you open up and tell the Committee, despite the terrible or brutal manner whereby your father was killed.  Tell the Committee how you feel about this.