Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-26

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: As far as I can recall not, Chairperson, with no certainty it was said that there would be four exactly, it may have been possibly four, but I cannot recall four exactly.

MR MOERANE: Wasn't there an earlier infiltration, a day or so before that that was aborted, that went awry because the people went to the wrong place?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Repeat the question please.

MR MOERANE: Wasn't there an infiltration that was supposed to have taken place a day or two before that involving an Indian man?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Not that I am aware of, Chairperson.  It was only the one and no Indian man or woman or anything like that was ever mentioned.

MR MOERANE: So you did not make any arrangements for an infiltration a day or two before that, or can't you remember?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: There may have been, but I don't recall Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you recall at any stage making arrangements for infiltrations and the arrangements not being carried out?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: There were previous instances where people would have come in where this did not come to fruition.

MR MOERANE: In your experience at the Security Branch offices at Piet Retief, some of the ANC people who infiltrated were armed and others on other occasions were not armed.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: There were persons who were armed, Chairperson.  I am trying to think of one that was not armed.  There was one woman who was not armed.  She did come through the gates because of a trap that was set for her.  She was arrested.  There were instances where they were also not armed, where the arms were already within South Africa.

MR MOERANE: You mentioned one of the deceased, whom you had arrested on an earlier occasion; when she came through on that earlier occasion, was she armed?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Chairperson, I did not say she came into the country.  They were underway leaving the country when she was arrested, not when she came in.

MR MOERANE: You know that some of the people who are infiltrated into the country are infiltrated to do political work, propaganda work and not military work.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: There were such instances yes, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Did your source have that type of knowledge as to whether or not these people were coming in for political work or for military work?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, Chairperson, not at all.

MR MOERANE: In any event you say, or do you confirm that this person was subsequently arrested by the ANC and detained?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct, yes.

MR MOERANE: And was released subsequently?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOERANE: And in 93 she was detained in Piet Retief, or at least an appearance was made - it was made to appear that she was being detained at Piet Retief?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Who is that?

MR MOERANE: The source.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: She was never detained in Piet Retief.

MR MOERANE: I see.  Well I personally do not believe and my instructions are not that she was actually detained, but that's what she says.  She says she was detained.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, Chairperson, that is not so, she was never detained at Piet Retief, not at all.

MR MOERANE: Warrant-Officer with regard to the first incident, do you confirm firstly that this was an ambush?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: And that there was no intention of effecting an arrest?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is also correct.

MR MOERANE: And that there was no road-block established there?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: In fact people were lying in wait.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOERANE: And the intention was to eliminate these people?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: You see, in your statement you don't mention this instruction from Col de Kock to Maj Ras to shoot one of the deceased.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, I did not mention it there.  I later thought about the incident, Chairperson.  I did not mention in detail in the application.

MR MOERANE: Is there any particular reason that you didn't mention that?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Maybe I did not remember it that day and only thought about it later.

MR MOERANE: You mention that the firearm was produced by Maj Ras and the handgrenades.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOERANE: On the other hand, what you do say , Mr Chairman this is on page 115, paragraph 8,
"Col Eugene de Kock gave instruction to Roelf Venter from Vlakplaas to obtain two handgrenades and a pistol of Russian origin which would be from Vlakplaas to plant this in the vehicle."

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, that is in the application, Chairperson and I say that I suspect there must be some confusion because we did mention Roelf Venter but Mr Ras had the handgrenades and the pistol with him and he brought it there for placement.  It was just mentioned wrong because of this misunderstanding.  Mr Roelf Venter was never there.  We did mention him and that is where his name came about.

MR MOERANE: Neither do you mention in your application that Maj Ras got his finger and that of deceased, Leni Naidoo, round the trigger to fire.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, I said he place his hand over the weapon after which he fired two shots.

MR MOERANE: Is there any reason why you didn't mention that in your application?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, there is no reason therefore.  I did not put everything in detail as such.  Mr Ras mentioned in his application what happened there.  I cannot say everything on his behalf.

MR MOERANE: Well, but wasn't this important particularly in the light of your false affidavit that you made in the inquest proceedings where you said that Mr Naidoo shot and that handgrenades were actually found in their possession?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Chairperson it may be so, but every person who was there, I cannot say what every person who was there did.  The persons apply for amnesty themselves, they mention in their own applications what they did.

MR MOERANE: Let's deal with what happened after the first incident.  Is it correct that the first incident became known, certainly at the police station Piet Retief?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: And instead of an entry being made in the occurrence book, reporting or recording this incident, an entry was made that this matter shouldn't be spoken about.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: The officer who visited the scene handles that case Chairperson.  I did not handle it but I did ask that the matter not be disclosed because of future infiltrations.

MR MOERANE: Is it correct that no record was kept of the clothing of the deceased?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: I don't know whether there were any entries into the mortuary book, Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: I suggest to you Mr Pienaar, you know that because that matter was canvassed at the Piet Retief inquest.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: As I have said, I burned it later.  I don't know whether there was any existing record.

CHAIRPERSON: The bodies of the deceased persons, were they kept, you said in the mortuary, what was this a state mortuary, was it at the hospital?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: It was a state mortuary Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: At the hospital?

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: No, at the police station.

MR MOERANE: And I put it to you that you know that no entry was made either of the existence of this clothing or the destruction thereof.

FREDERIK JOHANNES PIENAAR: It may be possible Chairperson that nothing was made of it.  I am not entirely certain of it though.

MR MOERANE: I further put it to you that you did not show this clothing to any of the parents of the deceased.