Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-12-07

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.  Before we begin, I just want to introduce myself, I'm Judge Pillay, it's for the purpose of the record.  I'm going to ask my colleagues here to do the same.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I'm Judge Khampepe.

MR MALAN: Wynand Malan, Commissioner.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is Mr Snyders?  Mr Kruger?  Mr Mathius?  Would you please place those earphones on your ears because what I am saying now will be interpreted.
	Are there any people here related or connected to victims?  Would you also collect ...  Thank you.  	
	This is a matter in which the three applicants have attended this hearing in order to apply for amnesty in respect of a number of offences.  The offences for which they make such applications involve, as a result, various victims and in making such application and explaining themselves, have implicated other people in the commission of such crimes, or indirectly connected.  The hearing is governed by Act 34 of 1995 being the Truth and Reconciliation Act as amended.  In terms of this Act, people who have committed crimes with a political motive and who are prepared to make full disclosure, are entitled to be granted amnesty, but the Act goes further.  It provides and compels the administration of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in the form of the Amnesty Committee, to give proper notice to victims and/or their families as well as implicated people, that such a hearing is scheduled to take place on a particular date, at a particular venue, such that their interests, whatever that may be, can be protected and if they so wish, to oppose the applications.  Those are undeniable rights that emanate from the Act.  
	For quite a while now, various Committees of the Amnesty Committee have been complaining that such notices have not been properly served, if at all, resulting in matters having to be postponed or adjourned and generally resulting in time-wasting and a waste of tax funds.  
	In examining the documents related to this application, this Panel has discovered that there are a number of people who are implicated and have not at all been informed of this hearing.  There are one or two victims or families of deceased victims who also did not, or at least we can't say whether they were properly informed.  In my view it is an utter disgrace.  
	We know of the hardships that applicants and victims and implicated people have to go through in order to avail themselves of such hearings.  Apart from the anxiety, they go through great financial expense because not all expences are covered by the TRC and the time has come, I feel, for the administration of the TRC to take note and take notice of what we have to say and really come to the assistance of all those who have a legal right in the results and actually the hearing of each application.  
	Before I make a ruling on what's going to happen henceforth, are there any questions from any of the applicants?  If you want to say something, or ask something, now is the time.

MR KRUGER: Honourable Chairperson, it came about that the matter will be postponed because we could not afford and do not have legal representation and may I make a request that we postpone the matter until the time that we can obtain legal representation?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all that you want to discuss?

MR KRUGER: Is there a possibility that some of the persons who are present here and I accept that nothing has been heard so far, but to make a correction, is it possible that we could do this?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand.  Do you ask if the people who are present realise that nothing has been said?

MR KRUGER: I would just like to say the following with regards to my application, there are people who are present here and I can only make a correction for the purposes of this Committee ...

CHAIRPERSON: What type of correction?  What I wanted to ask you was, would you like to make that correction right now?

MR KRUGER: I would appreciate it if I could just say something to clear this up because as you know, some of these persons are involved with the TRC and I would just like to get clarity here.  I would like to say a few things because we have not had the opportunities to clear this out in detail.  To avoid that this panel has to repetitively hear this matter, I would not want you to say anything that comes down, or has the effect of evidence, do we understand each other?  What I would propose and I wish to inform you, there is just something I want to discuss with my colleagues.

CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, I would just like to inform you that according to the same Act you are entitled to representation by an attorney or an advocate or whatever and according to the Legal Aid Council Rules, I think you have to get into contact with the TRC and exercise your rights with regard to defence or representation and when that is done, then I think that would be the correct channel to apply your corrections to.  Do you understand that?

MR KRUGER: Yes, we understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you satisfied?

MR KRUGER: Yes, we are satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON: You may then get in touch with Ms Mtanga, who is right opposite you.  She will be able to assist you to get into contact with the people of the TRC with regard to attorneys.  You do realise that such an appointment is done in terms of the Legal Aid Council guidelines and that you can find out from them.  Are you satisfied with what I am saying?

MR KRUGER: We are satisfied but the purpose that the Truth Commission is that our feeling is here we stand before you in the Name of Jesus Christ and the purpose of the TRC is to speak the truth and only the truth and we have made a promise to God that if we appear here, we will only speak the truth and I cannot see how a legal representative can inform me better than God, so if the Commission, how shall I put this, if it is the Commissions' will that we should obtain legal representatives, but from our side we will give the assurance that we are not here to tell lies, we are here to speak the truth and only the truth and if a legal representative is such a problem, then if you would adjourn this matter, we will make the necessary arrangements to obtain such representation.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not saying that you must and we do accept that you will speak the truth, but things are not as simple.  The Act makes provision for certain technical aspects as well as procedures that the lay person does not understand entirely.  It can only prejudice such people to appear here without any legal representation.  It is only a bit of advice.  I am not forcing you, you are not being forced to obtain legal representation, it was only some friendly advice to assist you.  I shall leave it in your hands to decide what you will do.

MR KRUGER: We thank you and we will accept it.

CHAIRPERSON: And I think Mr Kruger requested some time for appointments but it is left in your hands.  Is there anything else?
	I want to address the victims or families of victims who are present.   
	On behalf of the TRC and the Amnesty Committee, we wish to apologise for this type of incident.  I'm sure you will agree it's very unacceptable, untenable and I undertake to raise these objections with the Chairman of the Amnesty Committee as soon as I can.  
	Unfortunately we cannot proceed with the hearing today because of those problems that I have mentioned and in the circumstances, we've got no option but to postpone the matter and I will see to it that instructions are given to those who are charged with giving out notice, that such notices are properly given out and served on the proper people timeously.
	I thank you.  The matter is adjourned. 
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS