Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-05-02

MR MALAN: Thank you Mrs Grobelaar.  It is always a harrowing situation to be here to sit here and to share in your pain, but just at a distance, we can't really understand it.  One of our functions here is the political context of the political upheavals of the past times.  Have you got any information pertaining to his political activities during this time.

HESTER GROBELAAR: No, the only idea which I have is that he was involved with these people up to a point. We don't know who these people were after July, we only heard about Mr White after his death, we never knew such a person.  He wasn't a student so he couldn't have been on the campus.  I know from the letters which I received after his death that he knew he was about to die and he wrote that he had been betrayed and mislead by certain things.  He also said that his going away had nothing to do with politics but that he was doing it for our sake.
 We get the idea that he might have been involved in a situation from which he was trying to break free but he possibly knew too much about this organisation and therefore had to be silenced, he wasn't allowed to escape alive.  Whatever it was.  There's been a lot of speculation but it remains only that, speculation.

MR MALAN: Thank you very much Mrs Grobelaar.  You're aware of the fact we are already referring your statement for further investigation and I now hand you over to our chairman, thank you.
 Anybody who would like to ask more questions?

YASMINE SOOKA: Mrs Grobelaar you say that at one particular time when you spoke to Jaques Pauw, the security police told you that you should rather cooperate with them than with Mr Pauw, would you like to comment on that?

HESTER GROBELAAR: I saw it as a threat that a person could come to my house and could tell me, you cooperate either with the security police or with the Vrye Weekblad.

YASMINE SOOKA: Did you cooperate further with the Vrye Weekblad?

HESTER GROBELAAR: No I had no further contact with Jaques, I don't know whether the police actually tried to silence him as was requested that day but another journalist, a woman from the Vrye Weekblad did speak to me after that.

YASMINE SOOKA: Did this woman give you any further information?

HESTER GROBELAAR: She dealt more specifically with the inquest and with allegations that he had been killed.

YASMINE SOOKA: You said that you had an attorney at the inquest, who was he?

HESTER GROBELAAR: We had an advocate, Lucas van Tonder but it was not really his field, he wasn't really a criminal lawyer but he was the only person available at such short notice.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

DR BORAINE: Mrs Grobelaar you told us that Mr White was also shot and killed.  Can you perhaps tell us a little bit more about Mr White?  Who was he, had you ever met him, where did he come from, he wasn't a student?

HESTER GROBELAAR: All that I can tell you regarding Mr White is what his mother told me. I don't know if I should proceed.  she told me that he had been a recce whilst he had been in the army and that he was unemployed and often received very strange telephone calls after which he disappeared and he was always flush with money, but before his last disappearance he told her that he had only one last task to fulfil and he would then be finished.  He apparently also told his cousin that he was working for military intelligence.  I never met him and I never heard of him before.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.

RUSSELL ALLY: Mrs Grobelaar you said that you were very surprised that it appeared all of a sudden that your son's values had changed, especially concerning other racial groups and that you were very shocked by this? Can you tell us a little bit more about this change, this transformation and how you feel now in the context of the changes which have taken place in this country?

HESTER GROBELAAR: I could perhaps answer it in this way.  I feel that indoctrination took place at this leadership course.  I have no proof of this but I believe they were indoctrinated, were brain washed.

RUSSELL ALLY: What kind of indoctrination do you mean?

HESTER GROBELAAR: Political indoctrination is what I mean and I'm not referring to the normal left or right political issues, but indoctrination of a more fanatical nature.

RUSSELL ALLY: I know it's difficult to talk about this but one
of the things that we as a Commission must do is to understand what had happened in this country, especially as far as politics is concerned and how that shaped our history because this could give us a better indication of this period and what happened during that time.  I really would appreciate it if you could formulate it, but if it's too difficult, then I understand.

HESTER GROBELAAR: I don't quite understand the question, do you want to know on which side of the spectrum he was?

RUSSELL ALLY: I'm talking about the kind of indoctrination which you referred to.

HESTER GROBELAAR: What kind of indoctrination, no I don't know exactly what happened but I do know that there was a change in him afterwards.  Before he had been the kind of child who would give his last bit of money to a beggar, to those less fortunate and suddenly there was this total change in him, he had different opinions and those opinions were not moderate.  I can assure those ideas were not instilled in him in his home and by us.

MR MALAN: These fanatical ideas were they related to black people, were they racist?

HESTER GROBELAAR: I don't think it dealt specifically with black people, it was more to do with antisemitism and it really shocked me.  My philosophy was always, do unto others as you would want them to do unto you. Oh you asked me what my politics are...(intervention)

RUSSELL ALLY: No I just want to have some kind of idea what his politics might have because it's important for this case?

HESTER GROBELAAR: Yes he went towards the very far right but it got to a point when  he realised that he was involved in something that wasn't really his style, he didn't really want to be further involved and he tried to extricate himself.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much.

YASMINE SOOKA: I don't want to upset you but we've heard so much regarding the indoctrination which took place during these leadership courses, which took place when children went to high school, during the high school years. You were saying that you did not teach your child to be a racist but when he returned from this leadership course he was different, do you think that this change was brought about by the leadership school?

HESTER GROBELAAR: Yes, yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: Can you remember the name of this leadership school?

HESTER GROBELAAR: These were just the normal high school camps, leadership courses, leadership camps, usually those pupils who were elected as prefects and so on, the leadership amongst the students, they were usually sent on these camps and courses.  I just want to say that as regards indoctrination, Jean du Places father played a major role in indoctrination and the other friend Jean van Wyk's father told me that Mr du Places, this person's child had already recruited persons at school and had indoctrinated them into this kind of thing, Church of the Creation and that kind of thing.  I think it is criminal that one person can take another person's child and indoctrinate him.

DR RANDERA: I won't keep you much longer, I know how painful this is for you. In your closing statement you said that you thought that your son was removed because he knew too much and I presume that you are saying that in reference to the security branch because they are the people who were involved in his final death. And then also in your statement you go on to say that after your son's death you were harassed continually by the security branch again. Are you referring to a section of the security branch, I mean especially the harassment, where was that coming from?