Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-03

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, it was.  I said this lie.

CHAIRPERSON: You said a lie?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, that is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you advance any plausible reason why you should say a lie in that statement?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I didn't know.  What I thought was if I put it like this, I was going to get out.

CHAIRPERSON: The person to whom you made this statement, identified himself as the Investigator from the Truth Commission, didn't he?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: He did.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you have any reason not to trust a person who was coming from the Truth Commission, which was the process you wanted to confide in in order to get amnesty?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: The reason that made me mistrust this person, it is because I didn't know that if you make an application to the Truth Commission, there are other people who are coming, making a follow up, after your first application, there are others who are coming and take other statements.
	I got confused, I didn't understand how many people was I supposed to see.  Therefore I was confused.  That is why then even my testimony is contradicting.

CHAIRPERSON: But why did you lie then to him, if you did not trust him?  Why did you even say that your action was as a result of Mr Phumayo wanting to shoot you?  Why did you have to lie if you did not trust him?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: My apologies then, I thought I was defending myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Yet, on paragraph 2 of that statement, you stated the same evidence that you have testified to today, that you received information from Duduza Qaba that said you must be careful of the comrades.
	It is the same information that you have today testified to.   So you lied in certain respects, but told the truth in other respects?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: When it comes to Duduza Qaba, my reasons for giving his name out, was that there was no secret, I didn't see any reason why I should hide that.
	He is the one who came to me and the reason that I actually took action on my decision, is that I have already heard from other people that I was in danger, because of the comrades.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the fact of the matter is that you lied in certain respects, but told the truth in other respects, even though you did not trust the person to whom you were making a statement?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: My apologies Chairperson.  I don't know how I should apologise, but from the bottom of my heart, my apologies and I have done this thing.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Claassen, emanating from the questions put to Mr Mtambo by this panel, do you have any re-examination?

MR CLAASSEN: Madam Chair, I think there was a single aspect, but it was cleared up concerning a reply, I think it was a question from Mr Lax, whether he - but I believe it was cleared up, it was a question which just wasn't clear whether he answered positively on it, but I think it was cleared up.  Nothing further from me, thank you Madam Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Are you proposing to close your case?

MR CLAASSEN: I am Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: No further witnesses to be called in support of his application?

MR CLAASSEN: No further witnesses Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Thabete.

MS THABETE: Madam Chair, if you could allow me just to raise one aspect in my re-examination to Mr Mtambo.

CHAIRPERSON: You have no right to a re-examination, Ms Thabete.  It is only Mr Claassen who have such a right.

MS THABETE: Okay, thank you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You will have to apply to re-open an opportunity to put further questions to Mr Mtambo.

MS THABETE: Thank you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the basis of your application?  Why do you want to put further questions, when your opportunity has long since passed?

MS THABETE: It is something that had arisen in one of the questions that was raised by the Committee members.

CHAIRPERSON: Then in that case, please do so.  How many questions do you have?

MS THABETE: It is one question.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed to put that question to him.

MS THABETE: Thank you Madam Chair, I am indebted to you.
	Mr Mtambo, you have testified that you feared the deceased, is that correct?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETE: So, would it be correct to say that you actually followed him and shot him from the back, because you feared him, you were scared of him?  Would that be a correct statement to put to you?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: That is correct.

MS THABETE: I am asking this because it is my instructions that I should put it to you that you actually followed the deceased and you shot him at the back, because you were scared of him, not because of all the other reasons that you have given today.  What is your response to that?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: That is not correct.

MS THABETE: Thank you, no questions, Madam Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: I wouldn't begin to understand then the whole evidence, if you say that is not true?  Hasn't it been your evidence that this was a brave man who committed other acts of atrocities against your members, and you were all scared of him, and to quote you, you said I, myself were scared of him.

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: When I committed this act, I have already put together every reason that I had.  That is why I ended up killing him.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you or were you not scared of him, was he or was he not, a brave person who also intimidated your members?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I was scared of him, yes, I was scared of him, and that is the truth.
	I have seen him, the way he was operating and he liked his organisation, that is why I was scared of him.  I once thought that he was advanced in knowledge when it comes to ANC.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, do you have any witnesses to call on behalf of the objectors?

MS THABETE: Yes Madam Chair, just one witness, Mr Trevor Phumayo.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he going to testify?

MS THABETE: Yes, he is going to testify.  He is seated on my left hand side.

CHAIRPERSON: You said the name was Trevor who?

MS THABETE: Trevor Phumayo?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Phumayo, do you understand English?  You will do without the use of the microphone?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Yes.

TREVOR PHUMAYO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You have been duly sworn, you can take a seat.

MS THABETE: Mr  Phumayo, how are you related to the deceased?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: His father and my father, are brothers.  I can say his father is my uncle.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean the deceased was your uncle?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: The father of the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Was your uncle?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Yes.

MS THABETE: Was the deceased an active member of the ANC?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Yes, he was.

MS THABETE: According to your knowledge, did he harass IFP people?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: I can't recollect anything on that matter, but I don't think he did.  There is nothing which I have seen him doing, you know, harassing the IFP members, and even on top of that, there could have been no reason for him to do that, because the ANC was dominating the area.
	The IFP as the applicant has already put before the Commission, that it was having very little members, so it was an organisation which the ANC could not worry about at all.

MS THABETE: Thank you.  Can you explain to the Committee members, what was the deceased doing on the day of the incident, next to, or on the street where Maria's shibeen was?  Where was he going?

TREVOR PHUMAYO: Yes, actually he was just from his home, because there was a home on the same street, but on the lower part, you know of the street, and there was a house of his friend there.  The family have evacuated the place, I don't know the reasons, but he was asked to go and stay there for protecting purposes or something like that.
	As usual, he just used that street and frequented it in going to that house where he used to sleep during those days.