Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, we prepared this report which was given over to Mr Steenkamp sometime last week, and then there were applicants that were not consulted as yet.
	We tried to secure some over the weekend, and I left Mrs Nhlayisi to consult with them.  I am not sure as yet whether those are hearable.

CHAIRPERSON: When are we going to hear about whether there are further applications?

MR SIBEKO: Just before we adjourn.

CHAIRPERSON: Can't I adjourn now and then you can sort it out, if necessary we can continue with the hearing?

MR SIBEKO: (indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Please, we will adjourn.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I don't know if it is the proper time to do so, but we do have the Attorney appearing for the Khanyile family here today, Mr Shane is here.
	As I understand, we are going to deal with the matter of Mr Buthelezi, who is also an applicant in the killing, the murder of Mr Khanyile.  There is a request from the Attorney, if I may do so Mr Chairman, with all due respect, to place herself on record, and just to inform you officially what the position regarding the family is and regarding certain documents that were handed in.  If that may be done within a jiffy, thank you sir.

MS BOSSARD: Thank you Mr Chairman, as previously stated I appear on behalf of the Khanyile family.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just announce your name for the purposes of the record please.

MS BOSSARD: My name is Tracey Bossard, I will be appearing on behalf of the Khanyile family, namely Sothole Khanyile, Msizwe Khanyile and also on behalf of the aunt, Margaret Mabuza.  We would just like to place on record, that they are all present today.
	Mr Chairman, we further wish to place on record that we have handed in the affidavits on behalf of the victims.  They have also been handed to my colleague, he is well aware of the contents, he has had an opportunity to peruse them.  We have however, not any idea what his position is on these documents at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we mark that bundle, Exhibit 6.

ADV STEENKAMP: As you wish Mr Chairman, that is correct Mr Chairman, it must be Exhibit 6.  Mr Chairman, I do apologise, unfortunately I am sitting here with the original.  I do apologise profusely, I would like permission just to hand in the originals if I may do so.

CHAIRPERSON: I do have an original.

ADV STEENKAMP: Apparently sir, they are all signed.  Thank you, I am sorry sir, thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Anything else Ms Bossard?

MS BOSSARD: No thank you Mr Chairman, it is fine.

CHAIRPERSON: You indicated that you had not had any response from who?

MS BOSSARD: From my colleague, Mr Shane.

CHAIRPERSON: I think he may be in a better position at the end of the day, to tell you what he wants to do.  Mr Shane?

MR SHANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I have read the affidavits and discussed it with the applicants.  In fact the only applicant I could discuss it with today was (indistinct).
	He is adamant that he had information that can prove that the late Bheki was in fact a member of the IFP and was in fact ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane, I am going to stop you right there.  This is not the time to discuss the merits and the contents of this affidavit.  All I wanted to know was whether you have any procedural objection to the handing in at the moment?

MR SHANE: Sorry sir, I misunderstood you.  No objection to handing in the affidavit, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we proceed with what you want to do?

MR SHANE: My position Mr Chairman, we don't object, as I said we don't object to the affidavits, my position is that the two applicants will deny what is contained in the affidavit of Margaret Mtombiyotwa Mabuza, paragraph 4 and they deny that they had anything to do with registration, car registration documents, these are denied, and my instructions ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane, I thought I just made myself quite clear.  Last time, I looked in the dictionary, merits means exactly what you are discussing now.  We don't want to discuss the merits of these affidavits as yet.
	Just forget about Ms Bossard's request, I have dealt with that.  I understand that you have certain applications to make.  Let's get on with that.

MR SHANE: Sir, I would like the Committee to reconsider the application made last week, in respect of Mzwake Buthelezi, who is not, whose application has been lost.  This is the application dealt with on Thursday.
	I submit it is relevant to the opposition to amnesty by the Khanyile family.  I am ready to proceed, I have supplementary affidavits and copies.  My client was present a few minutes earlier on, he is there, I would like to call him up, please Mr chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane, before we proceed any further, let me get this clear.  There is a person, a South African citizen, who alleges that he made an application for amnesty for whatever reason, to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, namely the Amnesty Committee, do I understand it correctly so far?

MR SHANE: He made an application before or on the deadline day for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: That matter has not been set down, am I correct?

MR SHANE: That is correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: It would see, I am informed, the reason for that matter or that alleged application, not being enrolled, is because such an application is either never arrived at the offices of the TRC or that it is not to be found.  Am I correct?

MR SHANE: Sir, he says the application did not get to the TRC offices, correct, it was made on the 10th of May and it got lost from the time he signed his application, completed the form.  It got lost.  It could have got lost after it was handed to the TRC office at that time, at that time they were in the Sanlam Building, it could have been lost after it was given to them, or it could have been lost between the time it was signed by him and brought to the TRC offices.

CHAIRPERSON: Now last week, when you made a similar attempt to get this application on the role, I pointed it out to you that I was going to give you the time, and your client the time, until today, to do the necessary in order to satisfy this Committee that in fact, the document is not before this Committee through the fault of the TRC, not so?
	Are you able to satisfy us on that score?

MR SHANE: I hope to Mr Chairman.  I don't know if affidavits have been, further affidavits have been placed before you.  I have a supplementary affidavit Mr Chairman, of the applicant.  That is a short affidavit, just giving further details, and I have an affidavit of Sally Sealy before you.
	There is another affidavit, it is just a confirming affidavit by George Ndlozi. Unfortunately, he is - I don't want to give you an unsigned document sir, he is not available to sign that affidavit.  It is just a very short affidavit, basically confirming what Sally Sealy has said.

CHAIRPERSON: And now, what must I do with this?

MR SHANE: The affidavit of Sally Sealy and the applicant, supplementary affidavit of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: And now?

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman, I submit that on what you've got before you, it seems quite clear that Mzwake Buthelezi did on the 10th of May 1997, make application for amnesty together with very many other people.
	I submit sir, that on the papers before you, it is quite obvious that what happened to his application, cannot be attributed to any fault on his part.  Mr Chairman, with the greatest ...

CHAIRPERSON: Can it be attributed to any fault of the TRC, that is the issue?