Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

CHAIRPERSON: Now the 30 minutes after his arrival at Culemborg ...

JUDGE WILSON: Could I intervene at this stage?  Did you say that you assaulted someone within the 30 minutes of their arrest or did you say you assaulted them for a period of 30 minutes?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I think the point I was going to try and convey Sir, was not longer than 30 minutes.	It may have been 30 minutes after the arrest if the person had to be brought to the office, it could have been shorter.  But that was normally ...

JUDGE WILSON: For a period of 30 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: But the interrogation would have to commence as soon as possible because you wanted information very quickly.  You explained why you wanted information very quickly?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So the person, the interrogation would commence once the right moment comes?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, do you remember how you assaulted Mr Kruse that day, after his arrest?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I can't remember Sir.  I doubt if it would have been a bag method if he says that we were travelling in a vehicle.  If Mr Kruse could perhaps put more light on this.

ADV DE JAGER: But he asked you about the arrival at Culemborg?  You've travelled a way, you are at Culemborg, you are at the police cells now, what did you do to him there?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I presume I would have put a wet bag over his head, and interrogated him Sir.  That was my modus operandi and I didn't detract from that method.

ADV DE JAGER: And if that was so, then you used the wet bag twice on him, because you had just told us that you used it on the early morning too?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Kruse?

MR KRUSE: You see this is my difficulty why I am so angry.  You are consistently lying.  When we arrived at Culemborg, do you remember you hung me up?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Hung you up?  What you remember as hanging you up, is that handcuffing you to the burglar proofing ...?

MR KRUSE: So that he may not touch the ground?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I may have done it, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I did not hear Mr Kruse, what is it that you said ...

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I concede I might have done it Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What, I didn't hear?  Hanging him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Handcuffed him to the burglar proofing on the windows.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you exactly mean, what do you mean you might have done that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Once again Sir, I cannot specifically remember it, but I would concede that the victim would remember this better than me.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you implying that you might possibly have forgotten about it?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I have forgotten Your Worship, but I do not want to try and convey to the  Commission that when I do not want to admit to something, I can't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you rarely used that method?  The method that you mostly used was the wet bag method?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: The wet bag method, but the grill on the window used to also be kept as a place of detention.  If we had to leave the office, you would handcuff the person to the trellis work.  So yes, that was done, but it wasn't a method of shall I say torture.	If Mr Kruse says ...

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a comfortable position?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Well, if he sat on the chair and he was handcuffed, it would have been a comfortable position.  If he had to stand without a chair, it would have been an uncomfortable position.

CHAIRPERSON: What you really are saying, it wasn't done for questioning?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Couldn't it have been a hanging position, handcuffing him high up at a bar, so that his feet couldn't reach the floor for instance?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct Sir, it could be utilised to do that.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, was it utilized to do that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I cannot remember, but I will, if Mr Kruse says, and that is in all honesty I am not trying to impress Mr Kruse, then I would say yes, I suspended him from the trellis work, Sir.

MR KRUSE: And beat me in my stomach?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Excuse me?

MR KRUSE: And beat me in my stomach?

JUDGE WILSON: And what me in my stomach?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I concede, I might have done that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Benzien, you see, I think Mr Kruse has some problems in expressing himself.  And I think that some points need to be cleared.
	This hanging a person in the way that you have told us, you have confirmed, as explained by my colleague Mr De Jager, surely that is meant to torture a person?  It is not being done for the purpose of nobly immobilising a person, preventing him from running away?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I agree with you wholeheartedly Sir.  Could I ask Mr Kruse this, he says that it was me, Goosen and Liebenberg.

MR KRUSE: And some askaris.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Is he sure it was me doing this?

MR KRUSE: I can't be more than that.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Sir, if he says I did it, I apologise for this.  That is one of the methods that I did not put in my amnesty application, it has absolutely not come into my mind.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was it not a common practice Mr Benzien?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Excuse me, Ma'am?

SISI KHAMPEPE: To suspend, was it not a common practise, to your knowledge to suspend people on bars?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, Ma'am, it was not a common.  I am just thinking of the handcuffs would leave marks and assault in the stomach could cause injury, and we have to bear in mind that my methods of interrogation or torture was not to have marks left on anybody.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So if you had actually done this, it would be something that you would be able to remember?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am sure of it, Ma'am.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you are saying you never actually suspended him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am saying that I cannot remember it now.  But in fairness to everybody, I will concede if Mr Kruse says I did that to him, I will concede I did it.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you see if you concede to something that you feel and you are convinced you haven't done, you might think you are being fair to everybody, I am not so sure whether you are being fair to yourself.  You need also to be fair to yourself.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Sir, I have done so many heinous deeds in the name of interrogation, that I cannot remember individually certain aspects.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I can appreciate Mr Benzien, that you can't remember all the details with regard to all the torture or assault that you must have committed on numerous detainees, but what I find puzzling is that in this case, you are able to remember if in the area where Mr Kruse was arrested, you seem to remember that he was arrested next to the bioscope near College Road, but you cannot remember the details of the assault that took place immediately after he was arrested at the places that you seem to remember so well.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Madam, I also initially said I am not wholly convinced that I was in the vehicle that transported him from the scene, but I will concede.  If Mr Kruse says so and I believe his memory of this incident, is better than what my memory is of this incident.
	Therefore if he says I did this to him, having a better memory of that one incident, I will concede I did it and that is what I then apologise for.

MR KRUSE: Jeffery, it is unfortunate Niclo Pedro is not here, but if he was here, he would have testified that he experienced the same thing.

JUDGE WILSON: Who is he?

MR KRUSE: Niclo Pedro, one of the victims that is unfortunately not here, but he would have testified to a similar thing.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on, put your questions.  Wally Roode would testify by a similar thing, not by you, by some other people, so it is a method, it was commonly used.  I am surprised that you don't know about the method.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you must just confine your remarks to what you want him to admit about his activities.

MR KRUSE: Isn't it true my arms were bleeding?