Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-28

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Because the driver of the car had already fled when we got out of the bank, we realised that we did not have transport, so we had to look for a get-away car.  Accused number 3 went to the driver's side and I went to the passenger's side.  Mr Walters tried to unfasten his seat belt and because of the commotion at that time, my co-accused got a fright and fired at Mr Walters.

MS LOONAT: Did you fire any shots on that day?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I do not recall firing any shots.  When I was running away, I had the firearm pointed upwards all the time.

UNKNOWN: May I just ask a question, if I may.  Mr Mahambane, in the judgment the Judge talks about, you were carrying the pump gun weren't you, it was a shot gun?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: That's true.

UNKNOWN: But that talks of several shot gun cartridges being picked up at the scene of the crime in the Judgment.  If you like I'll find it for you and your lawyer can canvass it with you, but you can take my word for it.
Was anyone else armed with a shot gun?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: As far as I can recall, I am the only person who had a shotgun.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  And as far as you recall, you didn't fire it?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I do not recall firing ...(indistinct)

UNKNOWN: Ja.  Please carry on.

MS LOONAT: For the record, I did canvass the one shot that was fired, because I explained to my client that he did say that although he can't remember clearly, one shot did go off and he hurt himself with it accidentally, but he did not shoot at anybody at any time.  Thank you.  On page 45 of the bundle, line 10 it confirms that there was the unfired rounds in the magazine and one fired round in the chamber, for the record.
	So you did not form the intention at any time to kill or even shoot at anyone, is that correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No, I did not have any such intentions because even before we left, I did explain to my accomplices that we are not going out there to kill, but to obtain the money.

UNKNOWN: You see, it's all very well quoting from the record, but now you've drawn my attention to the portion that made me think of the question in the first place.  It's patently clear from this, I'll read to you
"It's clear from his own evidence as to the number of cartridges which were loaded and those found in the gun which was taken from him, that he's not being frank in this regard."
So it's clear that there were several shots fired, not just one and that's what the Judge found in the matter.
He's telling us he can't remember firing a single shot.  At the trial he remembered firing one.

MS LOONAT: Ja, he does admit, he remembers admitting that he did fire one, which was by accident.

UNKNOWN: Well he doesn't say that here.  His evidence here before us has been that he doesn't remember firing at all.  You can't give evidence for him.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Loonat it goes further, that last paragraph.

MS LOONAT: Ja, the last paragraph.

CHAIRPERSON: In the trial it is found that he endeavoured to suggest that only one shot was fired almost by accident, in which he injured himself.  So it is clear from his own evidence as to the number of cartridges which were loaded and those found in the gun when it was taken from him, that he's not being entirely frank.  Do you follow what I'm saying?  So even if he admits to shooting one now, it is in conflict with what was found in the criminal case, although the Judge doesn't go as far as to say how many shots were fired at this stage, in this part of the Judgment, it is suggested that many more than just one accidental shot was discharged.

MS LOONAT: Your Honour, on the same page, line 10, is what I put to my client and that is where it says, on the 11th line, that one five round was found in the chamber, only one and we could - I couldn't find anywhere else others being shot from that particular shot gun.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, but if you read the whole record, the number of cartridges found from shot gun and he says he's the only one, as far as he can remember, that was in possession of such, it is clear from the Judgment that he discharged more than the accidental one shot and that's the point the Judge is making in the Judgment.  I may just add, what crossed my mind is that if they were going to use these guns as mechanisms to create fear and to facilitate the robbery, why fill the gun up with ammunition?  I just make the point to you because he says that that was the intention.  I'll leave it to you to argue the point.

MS LOONAT: My client did - I did put the question to him Your Honour and my client submitted that his co-accused were just thoroughbred criminals and they would not go into a bank with firearms that had no ammunition at all, but the instruction was not to use the firearms and in his simple mind, a man who is not committed with no criminal record, honestly believed that it would be very simple, they just go and they rob and they walk away and if that did not happen, they would still not use the firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: One would have to be very naive to accept that, isn't it?

MS LOONAT: As the Chairperson pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not talking about your client.  Carry on.

MS LOONAT: Mr Mahambane, who shot at Mr Barkor on that day?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: It was accused number 1.

MS LOONAT: Were you anywhere near accused number 1 at the time.

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Accused number one remained outside whilst I and accused number three went inside the bank.

MS LOONAT: So you are not aware when Mr Barkor was shot by accused number one, is that correct?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: I heard the gun going off whilst I was inside the bank.

MS LOONAT: Do you know who shot at Mr Kouvaris and Mr Craven?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No, I cannot.

CHAIRPERSON: You were there, isn't it, surely you can tell us who. You were present.

MUSA MAHAMBANE: The victims that I remember clearly were Mr Walters and the other person who was shot in the eye.  I do not recall with regards to the others.

CHAIRPERSON: Who shot the one in the eye?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: It was accused number one who was outside.

CHAIRPERSON: The same person who shot Mr Walters?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: The same person who shot Mr Walters?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said accused number one.  Did you not just say number one shot Mr Walters?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No, accused number one shot the person who was outside.  Mr Walters was shot by accused number 3.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that was Mr Ziane?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Ziane, yes, he shot Mr Walters.

UNKNOWN: This Themba that you talk about, this driver.

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Oh, he ran away.

UNKNOWN: ;   Yes.  Where was he from?  Also from KwaMashu?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, he was from KwaMashu.

UNKNOWN: Was he ever arrested?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No, he was not arrested.

UNKNOWN: And he didn't take part in the gun battle that led to your arrest?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: No, I think he fled at the time when Mr Ivaco was shot and he was perhaps mistaken for a member of the public, so he just left.

UNKNOWN: You see the newspaper report of this incident says that four heavily armed men were involved in a gun fight, but on your version there were only three.

MUSA MAHAMBANE: They are mistaken.  The driver fled from the scene.

UNKNOWN: So only three people were involved in the gun fight, according to your evidence?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Yes, the three of us.

UNKNOWN: Now Themba's name wasn't Mavundla, was it?  His surname?

MUSA MAHAMBANE: Mavundla was accused number three.

UNKNOWN: Because his nickname was Themba Mavundla.

MUSA MAHAMBANE: His other alias was also Siyane.

UNKNOWN: Please carry on.

MS LOONAT: Mr Mahambane, you have served seven years of your twenty years sentence and you've had plenty of time to think about what happened on that day.  How do you feel about the aftermath of your criminal deeds today?