Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-07

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Well it would bring other aspects in regarding extenuating circumstances.

ADV PRIOR: Alright, in other words ...(intervention)

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: In terms of the test then for extenuating circumstances,  with the premeditation involved in any instructions given, there was no chance I would get it and so I had to use resources available to me and one of them was Matthew, was a witness under stress.

ADV PRIOR: Alright.  And for those reasons, you have already conceded that certain distortions of facts and of the truth were presented to the Supreme Court?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, that's correct.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, with your leave, just one other aspect.  I know I indicated that I was not going to ask on any other aspect, but there is an interest from the Commission's point of view in special regard to the East Rand events.  Mr McBride, there's just a few matters surrounding that particular aspect of your amnesty application.  You said arms, weapons, ammunitions were supplied to SDU by yourself.  Where did you draw these from?  In other words, who supplied them to you?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I got them from Rashid and from Ronnie Kasrils.

ADV PRIOR: And was there any record kept of precisely what you drew from them and what was handed over?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: No Sir, my previous experience showed me quite clearly, you keep records, that's evidence against you in future, so I didn't keep records.

ADV PRIOR: Are you able to tell the Committee more or less, or an estimate of the quantity of munitions, equipment, material that you supplied to the SDU's on the East Rand?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I've got an idea.  It's about between 20 and 40 AKs, I think it's about 6 Makarov pistols, hand grenades, about 50 and ammunition for all of that, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr McBride you said that you were also later involved during the amnesty relating to the possession of firearms in collecting back firearms.  What sort of success rate, bearing in mind these numbers you've given now?  Obviously you couldn't collect back an exploded grenade, but in regard to the AK47s, the Makarovs and perhaps any grenades that weren't actually used, how many?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, if I remember correctly, it wasn't as successful as we had wished it to be, but a significant amount of the stuff that was handed out by us, was handed in to the police.  On one occasion, I went and collected stuff myself from people and took it to the police station in Katlehong.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.  What you recovered, was it in any way near what had been handed out?  In other words, what I'm asking is, does there remain a substantial amount of weaponry in the hands of former SDU members?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Well, just to explain it to you so that you understand how the amnesty went on.  The amnesty was that everybody had to report to the nearest police station and hand over the weapons and they could send somebody else to hand it over, so I didn't keep records of serial numbers, so I don't know at which stage the guys I worked with handed over or if they gave it to somebody else and handed stuff over to them.

ADV PRIOR: Do the names Pungose Ceba, or that name, does that mean anything to you?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, that is one of the apartheid spies who influenced one of my SDUs to - well at that stage I was in prison still, but I'd got to know the guy who was part of the SDU command and I met him in prison, he influenced him to carry out an attack.  Ceba was never found or charged by the apartheid government.

ADV PRIOR: Michael Phama?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That's the man I'm talking about, I met him in prison.  When the attack was carried out, I was in jail.

ADV PRIOR: And the Khumalo gang?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: The Khumalo gang is an Inkatha aligned gang that reigned terror upon the community of Thokoza and possibly were involved in the killing of Sam Ntuli.

ADV PRIOR: And were, was part of the arming of the SDUs by yourself, to negative that influence, the Khumalo gang in particular?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, to counter that because you see there's a trial going on today where Temba Khosa was one of the people issuing weapons to people at that stage, or at least that's the reports we received from Eugene de Kock and yes, that's why I supplied the weapons.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Prior.  Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Thank you to the Chair and the Committee for letting me continue my examination today.

MR RICHARD: Vis a vis the Klein family, as you know from Exhibit A7, the affidavit of Mrs Klein, her particular question ...(intervention)

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Can I just find it please, Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: What's the reference, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: The reference is Volume or Exhibit A7.  It consists of a one page affidavit by Mrs Klein, to which is attached various medical records.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Is that the one with the hand-written note at the bottom, Sir, saying:  "I would like a private hearing, not a public one?"

MR RICHARD: Correct.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: Now, if you read that, you will note that her particular interest is, why was she a target?  In Exhibit D, I understand what you have said.  You say that you supplied the weapons but did not know of the target that was to be attacked.  Is that correct?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes and I also said that if I knew the target, it would have been a legitimate target.

MR RICHARD: Now, my question was, you didn't know the target, or did you know the target?  Your answer is:  "No, I didn't know the target."  Now my next question is:  Was there any discussion of the type of target that your co-applicants for amnesty might have attacked that time when you gave them the weapons?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: To what effect was that discussion?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Collaborators, Security personnel.

MR RICHARD: Did they describe the category of collaborator that they might be planning to attack?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I think we discussed people who were in the police reservists, Labour Party stooges and things like that.

MR RICHARD: Now did you ask them whether they had conducted a reconnaissance, whether they had investigated what sort of - the target that they were going to attack?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I don't recall asking them.  I probably would have discussed something and gone over the care that should be taken, to make sure they get away safely.

MR RICHARD: Would you have said something like:  "If you are going to attack a member of the Labour Party, be careful not to attack his children."  Something like that?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: In that regard, I don't recall having said that.  I may have said it, I can't remember now.  The only equivocation for me where children were involved, came at a very later stage in my operations.

MR RICHARD: So that means, if you had known, what you say you didn't, that the grenade or grenades was going to be thrown through somebody's bedroom window, it wouldn't have mattered whether it was his wife or his children that were in that room with him?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: According to the policy there's unfortunate casualties of cross-fire.

MR DEHAL: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, I don't understand the relevance.  There were no children involved in this operation.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but I think what Mr Richard is getting at is Mrs Klein was involved, who wasn't a target.  I think he's generally talking about care taken in cross-fire, whether they knew children were there or not.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Chair, I did not say that children were involved, I said "if".  So the impression I gain and I ask you this question:  What guidelines of target selection did you give your subordinates in your unit?