Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-18

MR WEBSTER: Chairperson, I am grateful.
	And again the next question that I put is also merely on probability and subject to confirmation of instructions that as I indicated yesterday and even when it suggests further that injuries 1, 2 and 3 - Chairperson, this is speculative, it's the best I can do with the information available to me, please pardon me?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes do carry on.

MR WEBSTER: That injuries 1, 2 and 3 again on probability would be very consistent with firing from above the vehicle and hence the direction of the injuries of the bullets through the deceased's head.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now that doesn't convey a clear picture to me when you say from above the vehicle and then through the roof of the car?

MR WEBSTER: Through the roof of the car.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what you say could have happened?

MR WEBSTER: That could have happened, as I say unfortunately because of the inability to secure the necessary evidence may I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well there was no ballistic evidence at all, was there?

MR WEBSTER: At the moment nothing is available, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, right.

MR WEBSTER: So as I say I'll ask for your indulgence in putting that question.

CHAIRPERSON: It's being suggested that the injuries to the top of the head might have been caused from shots fired from above the car.  Have you any comment to make?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I think it is highly improbable.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, let's move on, it's improbable as far as he is concerned.

MR WEBSTER: We go on to Exhibit F, dealing with Blessing Mabaso.  According to Capt Botha he was the driver of the vehicle and whilst we just look at the first page of Exhibit F you will notice there that there's a note:  "The deceased was the driver of a vehicle which was conveying suspected terrorists and was killed in the shoot-out with the police, do you see that?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I see that Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: That note must have been disinformation given to Capt Botha about the shoot-out, you admit that I'm sure?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I cannot comment to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You don't know what was said to Lt Botha?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I don't know.

MR WEBSTER: But it would have been consistent with your actions afterwards in planting guns?

CHAIRPERSON: They could have easily denied that they planted the guns, they could have said that the guns were in the car.

MR WEBSTER: Pardon Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: They could have easily said that the guns were in the car.

MR WEBSTER: I agree Sir, but what I'm saying is what the witness has now admitted that this would be consistent with the planting of the guns in other words the shoot-out.

CHAIRPERSON: That's a matter for argument and a guess.

MR WEBSTER: We'll leave it at that, thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes.

MR WEBSTER: Let's go again to the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mabaso.

MR WEBSTER: We are dealing with Mabaso, the annexure again, of F, I think it's page 11 and probably whilst we are still here, it's quite in order, according to this exhibit the deceased had minimum of 11 injuries on his body, do you agree?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I see that it is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And if we look at 11 and 12, if we look at F13 and look on the figure on the right, unfortunately Chairperson my numbers are not very legible but when you look at the figurine on the right, top right corner, you see a great number of injuries?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Again, if you look at the injury on the left, the top left, on the right shoulder and then look at the figurine bottom left on the neck, it would appear that and considering what appears on descriptions on page 11 and 12, that none of those injuries could have come from the left or been fired from the left.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, with great respect, I hate to interrupt.  My learned friend is putting points to the witness and he is misleading the Committee.  I'm not saying he is doing so on purpose.  Will you look at page 12 injury number 6 as an example.  What does the doctor say about this, he says
"The sixth wound is the penetrating wound which has the appearance of an entrance wound with a laceration of" such and such " that brings the body cavity to the left which was shot through posteriorally and the sixth rib stage through and the left lung in the vicinity of the leerus, it enters the lung itself"
Clearly on the left and that Chairperson, according to his finding is a fatal shot.  Then Chairperson, he says at the bottom of that page the last sentence:
"The wounds which caused the death of this deceased is the shooting wounds number 3 which went through the chest and number 6 which also went through the chest."
My learned friend is not putting accurately to the witness what the report appears to state, we having heard the doctor, we haven't heard any evidence but on the face value, Chairperson, there are four wounds that clearly according to the doctors and we will draw your attention to it later.  According to the medical legal report, it clearly penetrated at least on the left side of the body if not from the left side of the body.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: Chairperson, we'll deal with that counsel was getting ...(indistinct) we'll deal with the wounds.  Let's deal with wound number 6.  Look at the right, page 14, right bottom figure, look at the direction of the arrow, Mr Botha.  Project your mind at seated passenger and the possibility of you on the left rear firing and hitting the person at the spot where it is indicated on the body, the exit wound being on the left side of the neck and tell me that that wound could have in any way have been caused by your firing from the left side of that vehicle bearing in mind that this person was the driver.  Is there any probability that that could be so?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, it is difficult for me to speculate here, a person or I cannot say in which position every individual body was during the shooting incident.  According to my judgement they would have looked around to the left or to the right and that would certainly have influenced the exit and entry wounds so it is difficult to comment.

MR WEBSTER: You see unfortunately we just talk on probabilities since we don't have evidence, Mr Botha, I understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I think that you can't pin things down with any level of certainty.

MR WEBSTER: That is agreed, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And I'm afraid that is what you are trying to do.

MR WEBSTER: No, no, all I'm saying is on looking at this, looking at this injury, the probabilities.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the level that you can put it.

MR WEBSTER: That is the level at which I'm putting it, Chairperson and not as a fact, I couldn't ever do that but on the level of probability, wound number 6 could never have been caused from you firing from the left hand side.

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, it is difficult to speculate.  If we look at this page 13 to which you refer, and that was the driver, it is difficult to speculate but I don't know.

MR WEBSTER: We'll leave it at that, we'll get the doctor to tell us.  Let's do Exhibit H quickly, sorry G, I'm sorry it is Exhibit G.  It is Mamela, G17, 18, 19 and 20.  Would you agree with me that according to the doctor the injuries indicates that caused the death were 2, 4 and 7?   2, 4 and 7, it's at the bottom, it appears on bottom of page 17, last sentence.  Chairperson, I wonder if you would have the original with you, at least the original photocopy because the others are copies from copies.

MR LAX: Sorry, the summary appears on page 18 not 17, you said 17.