Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-19

MR STEENKAMP: No further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Just before - I will start where Mr Chairman left off Mr tshoane.  Can you tell the Committee, when you were making this statement you allege that you were led to say what the police were saying.  In what language were you communicating with the police?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: We were using Sotho.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is the person you were giving the statement to, who was taking your statement down, was he a Sotho speaking person?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: He was speaking Sotho yes, but not very fluent Sotho.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And whilst you were speaking he translated in Afrikaans?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: He was not fluent in Sesotho because I could not understand what he was saying.  He never translated into Afrikaans.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.  Let me put is this way, there was no interpreter, it was yourself and de Jongh?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So when you were speaking to him you thought he was writing it in Sesotho, what he was writing?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, I was thinking that he was writing in Sesotho.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Was the statement read back to you after  you have talked to him, finished talking to him about the incident?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: He never read that statement to me.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You were just made to sign after you had finished talking?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now the other point I want to clear to the Committee is ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: Sorry, just before you proceed, I'm not sure that I understand the leading of this evidence.  Is the contention that the contents was not disclosed to him at the time and therefore he didn't even know of this?  Because his earlier evidence was saying: yes, this is indeed what was said but this was forced upon him.  He did not dispute the contents.  He confirmed the contents as he was led, not necessarily as the fact.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Through you Mr Chairman.  I don't necessary mean that what I'm trying to put across to the Committee is that though the statement is before the Committee, he admits that is so.  There may be a possibility that that's not what actually ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: There may be a possibility of a slight error in translation, but hasn't he agreed with the bulk of what was said, and his explanation each time was: "That is what the police said, that is what the informer told them".  He hasn't once suggested that wasn't what was said at all.  You are now trying to find another basis on which to attack this statement.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, it is not necessary that I want to attack the statement, but even so, as he admitted, that indeed is what transpired.  But definitely even if it is, there was a problem of communication, the statement.  That is what I'm trying to put across.
	I'm not necessarily saying that he disputes what is in the statement.  He has already told the Committee that.  I was led to make that, I was told that they know about that. I'm not saying that he did not say that Mr Chairman, I'm in no way disputing that Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Sorry, if I may just ask Mr Tshoane, did Mr de Jongh, the investigative officer, did he speak Sotho to you?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: He was speaking Sotho but he was not fluent in Sesotho.

MR MALAN: But he could speak Sotho, he could speak Sesotho?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, he could speak Sotho.

MR MALAN: And you understood what he was saying?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I didn't understand everything what he was saying.

MR MALAN: But you said he led you on this statement and you haven't disputed the contents on the basis of which he supposedly had led you.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Mr de Jongh lead you on this statement or did the other policemen lead you before they took you to Mr de Jongh?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is de Jongh himself.

CHAIRPERSON: He led you, he told you what to say?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, that is correct.  The other policemen were also present.  When I refused they were assaulting me.

MR MALAN: Mr Tshoane, when you refused what?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: When they wanted the whole information.

MR MALAN: And did you then give them the whole information?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: The information did not come from me, I never gave them any information.

MR MALAN: I'm not sure that I understand you.  Either they gave you information which you agreed to because you were led or refused when they assaulted you.

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I refused some of the things that they were telling me, so when I refused they will assault me.  Then I decided that it will be better for me if I agree with everything that they were doing, in order to stop the assault.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what did you mean when you said: "They wanted the whole information"?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: They wanted to know what happened at the supermarket.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Tshoane, I was on the part of your trial.  You told the Committee that you disputed this statement in the trial, and you were asked by Mr Chairman where you gave evidence in your trial, did you give evidence in your trial?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I don't understand your question well, can you please repeat your question?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Let me put it this way; you were charged in the High Court here in Bloemfontein, and there were many of you, together with the applicants, Bhani, Ngesi, yourself and Mohape, four of you.  You stood trial for the Wesselsbron incident, is that correct?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did any of you give evidence in the trial?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you still remember clearly what happened in the High Court?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Many things happened, some of them I don't remember well.

MR MBANDAZAYO: The reason why I'm asking you is that according to the judgment of the case is that none of you gave evidence in the trial, in your trial.  That is why I'm asking you whether you still remember what  actually happened in your trial.

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is what I'm saying, I don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: But when I asked you you said that you did give evidence at your trial.  In fact you went on to say more than that.  You said that you disputed the statement at your trial but the court rejected it, as I understand you said.  Do you remember telling us that this morning, not a long time ago?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I am now confused because you have asked me so many questions and so many things happened in the past, I can't remember them very well.  I'm getting confused now.

MR MBANDAZAYO: In fact Mr Tshoane, it is true what is said by Mr Chairman, that you said that you gave trial and you also disputed your statement in the trial.  That is what you told Mr Chairman when he was asking you.  Now that is why I was asking you whether you still remember so that you're clear.  And also the Judge in his judgment says that none of you gave evidence in the trial, that is why I'm asking you.

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: ...[no English translation]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you give evidence in your trial?  Okay let me put it this way, maybe you don't understand what I mean when I'm saying you gave evidence.
	Were you taken to a stand and you were sworn in as it has been done here, after all the state has led its evidence in the court and told to give your version of the events at the supermarket, was that done?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You've got your answer.