Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-02

A J G ERWEE: Yes, it would be to the east of the low-water bridge, but north of the road.
	Thereafter Capt Bourne got back into the bus and Matthews and I were still standing outside on the low-water bridge and we were observing what was going on. Capt Bourne arrived there at a speed of about 60 and slammed the brakes on hard, on the bridge.  The Casspir appeared from the bush at the same time.  It was important to us that the chronological sequence should be very precise.  Otherwise the Kombi and the Casspir could have collided.  We also wanted to retain the element of surprise to confuse the passengers and this confusion would have given Matthews Sehlwana - his life was very precious to me. It would have given him a greater chance to escape safely.  
	It was also important to us to know exactly where the bus would stop.  Because directly next to the Kombi Capt Mike Bourne and two other Defence Force members, more specifically two Black Defence Force members would take up position.  
	It was Capt Mike Bourne's task that himself and his two colleagues stand up straight in their full uniform so that they be clearly visible in their uniforms and carrying their firearms to tell the passengers of the Kombi that they are surrounded, that they should get out and surrender. If there was a language problem then the two Black members would have been able to help Capt Mike Bourne.  
	To get back to the whistle.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if it is important, but I don't understand, you said that to avoid a possible collision between the Kombi and the Casspir. I don't understand how that could possibly happen.

A J G ERWEE: If the vehicle came driving along and the Casspir started out too soon or too late, then Matthews Sehlwana would not be able to apply the brakes in time to be able to stop.

CHAIRPERSON: But the Casspir is supposed to be on the eastern side and the Kombi would have to go down into the river, when Sehlwana would then be applying brakes and then for the collision to take place between the Casspir and the Kombi, the Kombi would have to go up again.

A J G ERWEE: Mr Chairperson, that is correct that there might be confusion.  It was not planned that the Kombi would be brought to a halt on the low-water bridge on the cement surface. It had to take place some distance away, about two or three paces. He had to start applying the brakes on the bridge, then the Casspir would come out from the bushes.  Then the brakes would be applied. Matthews wouldn't just apply brakes for no reason whatsoever.  The presence of the Casspir would have given Matthews a reason why to apply the brakes.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I see.  I thought that the arrangement was that the Kombi would first apply brakes and then the Casspir would appear.  It is the other way round?

A J G ERWEE: That is correct, yes.
	Mr Chairperson, to get back to the instructions to be given as far as the whistle commands are concerned. With the crossing of the insurgents at the Botswana border across the river, the radio message would have been relayed, one whistle would have been blown.  So that we would know what was going on. Secondly, a helicopter would also at that stage, prepare to become airborne and to move in our direction, but to say out of earshot.
	The second whistle would be blown by Capt Mike Bourne. As soon as the Kombi entered through a gate on one of the farm roads, I can't remember the name of the farm. There was an observation point there, and that would have been the signal for us to cock our firearms.  
	If I forgot to mention this, upon the blowing of the first whistle, the Casspir would also be started up. Its braking system operated by means of a vacuum, and the vehicle had to first build up enough pressure to be able to activate the hydraulic brakes.
	The third whistle would sound when the bus reached this point where the Casspir had to move away. The whistle was blown and when that happened the Casspir actually pulled away across the road and moved right out in front into the road, crossways into the road.
	Now if I may start with the incident itself. The signals were given, everything went according to plan.

UNKNOWN: I beg your pardon. I think perhaps we do that, do you not - according to your recollection don't you want to give us a plan or a scheme where these various people were placed, Kruger, Bourne and all these people, according to your recollection.  Perhaps we should just get a brief description. You have already said that there was quite a steep downhill path, and then there was this low-water bridge with the cement surface and then there was a steep incline on the other side.  My first question: is the road straight or is it winding?

A J G ERWEE: Where the low-water bridge is and another 20, 30 metres onwards in an easterly direction, the road is straight, but afterwards there is a slight bend to the left.  In other words to the north.

UNKNOWN: What kind of a fence was there in that area?

A J G ERWEE: South of the low-water bridge we had a six foot game fence.  On the left-hand side, in other words, north of the low-water bridge ... If I look at Exhibit B, or C rather, if I had to draw an angle there, there is quite a high surface next to the road.  It is almost as if there is a bank there.

UNKNOWN: Now in which direction was Matthews supposed to escape?

A J G ERWEE: Matthews was supposed to run in a southernly direction and escape in that direction.

UNKNOWN: But he wouldn't then have run slap-bang into the game fence?

A J G ERWEE: We went to the scene, with Matthews Sehlwana, we went there and there was a warthog hole there and he saw that he could actually escape through that hole, and he then had to follow a south-easterly direction and later double-backed to a southerly direction and into the river bed.  He had to escape south-east and then later move back to the river bed in a southerly direction and then move back to the Kombi or to the low-water bridge.

UNKNOWN: Where was the man who was supposed to throw this grenade?

A J G ERWEE: Yes, I forgot to mention that earlier.  In the south-west corner there, that man would have been standing directly next to the cement surface. He would have been concealed there, and when we rehearsed this, we showed him exactly where to stand and paced of his distances for him, because he was also running a measure of a risk should matters not go to according to plan.  He could also be injured.
	Capt Mike Bourne and the two other Defence Force members would be on the high ground, directly east of the road, after having crossed the cement surface and they would have been on the high ground.  So that they could have proper vision from - the people inside the Kombi could clearly see the three armed Defence Force soldiers on this high ground.

UNKNOWN: Would you, Chairperson, prefer the witness to make marks on Exhibit C, as points of reference?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, if you feel it is necessary.

UNKNOWN: Yes, Sir, would you please do that.  Could you just make a mark - you don't have a pen.   Maybe he can then get the original, Exhibit C to make those marks.
	The Defence Force man, could you mark more or less where he was?  Just make a circle or write there Defence Force member.
	The second point you have referred to is where Capt Bourne and the two Black Defence Force members to take up their positions.  Then, before you let the exhibit go, just indicate where the Kombi was supposed to be brought to a halt, vis-a-vis this little low-water bridge.  Also just draw a Casspir for us then we have a full picture where the Casspir was supposed to be positioned after having moved across the road.
	One more thing, there were people in that ditch in the sand, I think there were three people.  Just make three crosses there to indicate their position.
	Did you see the dotted line there on the map, where the word Kombi is written?  Did you notice that?

A J G ERWEE: Yes.