Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, I want us to return to the politicalpurposes indicated on page 91 of your application.   The particularaction against these persons, you have given testimony that theywere well-known comrades, or rather there has been testimony beforethe Committee that they were comrades.   Would you have consideredyour actions as a kind
4b of /...
MR DU PLESSIS 634 J H CRONJE
of intimidation to prevent other persons to attempt to gain militarytraining abroad like these comrades would have?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Would that have been one of the reasons whyyou acted against these activists in this manner?

ANSWER: Yes it was.

<UNKNOWN>: Would it have been possible for you with regardto all activists who had received military training outside ofthe borders of the country, would you have been able to act againstthem in this manner?

ANSWER: Could you repeat the question?

<UNKNOWN>: With regard to all activists who wanted toreceive such training, would you be able to act against them inthis manner?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: On page 92, paragraph (iv) it reads
  "Elimination usually took place in the case of high profileor extremely effective activists whose detention in terms of theSecurity Legislation would only have given momentum to the liberationstruggle."
You used the word "gewoonlik", "usually",if there were other circumstances would there have been eliminationsof person who were not high profile activists?

ANSWER: Yes it could have happened, although it was notcommon practice.

<UNKNOWN>: Returning to this case, would this have beena case which you considered justifiable under the circumstances?

ANSWER: Under the circumstances that they were leavingthe country for military training, I did consider it
4b justifiable /...
MR DU PLESSIS B J H CRONJE
justifiable.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier would you say that the Security Forcesand the Security Police would have been able in any way to stopany activists who returned after such training from committingsuch acts of terror, would you have been able to stop them?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: If these activists received military trainingoutside the borders of the country, would you have consideredit possible or probable that they would have been able to returnto the country to commit acts of terror?

ANSWER: Certainly.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier on page 93 we consider the impactthat these acts might have had on white voters.   What would yousay would have been the feeling evoked, among white people, ifthey heard that a Kombi of terrorists blew themselves up?

ANSWER: They would have thought that these people werepoorly trained and that the Security Forces were able to win thewar with ease against such poorly trained persons.

<UNKNOWN>: Were the voters or most of the voters reallythat stupid, didn't they think that it might have been the police?

ANSWER: Certainly many of them thought that it mighthave been the police who did these acts, or some of these acts.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier would that have contributed to afeeling of trust in the National Party Government?

ANSWER: Yes it would have created an atmosphere of trustin the National Party as well as the Security Police and the SecurityForces.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier on page 94, you've already giventestimony with regard to the first part but then with regard
4b to /...
MR DU PLESSIS 636 J H CRONJE
to the prevention of acts of terror, if we can page over to page95 (iv), could you just read the paragraph?

ANSWER: "Where activists went for training eitherinside or outside the country, they would necessarily have beeneliminated to prevent that at a later stage they would be ableto destabilise the country and its people by means of acts ofterror such as bombing attacks on both the Security Forces aswell as soft targets.   As soon as an activist received training,he was in a different class from a normal activist and his knowledgeand skill were equal to that of the Security Police, he wouldthen have been able to act far more effectively in military operations."

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier would you, in the course of planningthis operation, have been able to exclude the possibility thatthese persons would have been able to return to the country trainedand able to be responsible for the death either of military personnel,police officers or normal civilians?

ANSWER: I could not exclude this.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you consider this to be a possibility?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier are you able to remember what thereaction had been of these persons when they were injected?

ANSWER: I am unable to remember because they were immediatelyput back in the Kombi.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier you've been asked many questionswith regard to what Mamasela would have been able to say to theseactivists and you have given testimony that Mamasela had instructionsnot to convince people to go for training, but
4b that /...
MR DU PLESSIS 637 J H CRONJE
that they had rather to volunteer.   Did he report this to youin this way?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Did anyone work alongside Mamasela in thiswork as he talked to these activists and planned the entire thingwith them?

ANSWER: I don't know.

<UNKNOWN>: Would there have been anyone who along withMamasela had spoken to these activists to arrange for them toget into the Kombi and to leave the country for training.  Wouldanyone have gone along with Mamasela or did he do this work onhis own?

ANSWER: I cannot remember Chair.

<UNKNOWN>: Then Brigadier if Mamasela had been calledas a witness, would he have been able to make clear what exactlyhe said to these activists?

ANSWER: Yes he would be able to do so.

<UNKNOWN>: You cannot remember whether anyone else wasinvolved.   Is there anyone you could mention who might be ableto give further testimony with regard to this aspect of the matter?

ANSWER: No, I do not know of anyone else who could doso.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier with regard to that which Mr Currinhas placed on record with regard to these young people being comrades,what would your conclusion have been with regard to the informationwhich Mamasela gave to you with regard to their involvement?

ANSWER: It would seem to corroborate his information.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier would you have considered it a possibilitythat if these activists were to be trained as MK soldiers thatthey would have been able to return to the
4b country /...
MR DU PLESSIS 638 J H CRONJE
country to come and do normal work in South Africa, to returnto their families or did you rather consider it a possibilitythat they would return to wage war?

ANSWER: They would have returned to wage war.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, Mr Currin during the cross-examinationstated towards you that your action against these persons wasbeyond all proportion with regard to their age, which is underdispute or at least is unclear before the Committee with regardto their age, and that in view of their actions as against theirelimination that this would have been entirely beyond all proportion.  I want to ask you whether you considered the fact that theywere on their way to receive military training that they wouldhave returned to the country to wage war, under these circumstanceswould you have considered it beyond all proportion to take thisaction or would you have considered it justified?

ANSWER: I considered it justified.

<UNKNOWN>: Could you motivate this somewhat?

ANSWER: As I have said the wanted to leave the countryto receive military training.   If we managed to stop them thenat a later stage they would have left because out of experiencewe knew that if that person truly intended to receive militarytraining, it was not possible to stop the person.

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, was only Mamasela involved in theso-called recruiting of person for military training outside ofthe country or were there many other persons involved in thiskind of activity?

ANSWER: Mamasela did not recruit anyone.