Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-20

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct)  I just want to release this witness so that he can get back and prepare for his examination which I understand is imminent.  Nobody has any objection to this witness being released at this stage?
	I also think that we have been here for quite a long time and before we continue with any other witness, we should take a short adjournment.  We will adjourn for five minutes.
WITNESS EXCUSED

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, before the adjournment is taken, Captain Bokaba is here,  I would like to put certain questions to him which arose out of our inspection of the pocket book.
	May he then be asked to remain pending the application I will make after the adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR VISSER: ... reply to Commissioner De Jager's query about the record straight away before we go on.  It is the query regards the motor car collision or accident in which Ngo was involved and whether it was Mr Venter's car as I understood the question.
	Could I refer you to Bundle A Mr Chairman, of the evidence.  Page, marked in pen, 70, typed written page 177.  It is approximately two thirds down the page, the lines are not marked Mr Chairman.  And it is during my cross-examination of Mr Ngo where you will see the following  words -
"Mr Visser - I will leave out some words, and I say well let me ask this question first of all.  Was there a time or were there times when Mr Venter lent you his car and you didn't return it, did that happen?
		Mr Ngo says, that is when I capsized with that car.   
		Mr Visser, so I take it your answer is yes, there were times when you failed to return the car to Mr Venter? 
		Mr Ngo, the time I didn't return the car, it was when I capsized with the car.
	I think that is perhaps what you were looking for Mr De Jager.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Memani, what was it that you wished to raise?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, you will recall that Colonel Loots and I think he is a Lieutenant, I am not so sure, Loots and Captain Bokaba testified earlier on and in a sense they denied that Ngo would have been associated with the Security Branch and subsequent to their evidence you have asked for the pocket books to be produced.  There are certain entries in one of the pocket books which tend to establish a connection between Security Branch and Mr Ngo, which I would like to put to Mr Bokaba.

CHAIRPERSON: Would he know anything about it, he hasn't had custody of these pocket books, he was just the messenger who brought them here, they are not in his handwriting are they?

ADV MEMANI: I am not giving, I don't understand you, I want to put the contents of the entries to Mr Bokaba?

CHAIRPERSON: But what is the relevance of putting them to him?

ADV MEMANI: That they suggest that he at some stage accompanied ...

CHAIRPERSON: You want to put them to who?

ADV MEMANI: To Bokaba.  Bokaba is the Captain who testified together with Loots.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, another witness you want to recall?  Sorry, I was confused, I thought it was the present witness you wanted to put something more to.
	You want to apply for the recall of Captain Bokaba?

ADV MEMANI: That is correct My Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that we can do at some other stage.

ADV MEMANI: But he is actually driving the vehicle as far as I know, in which Khoja is travelling.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he leaving us now then?

ADV MEMANI: I believe so.

MR VISSER: Yes, My Lord.  They came together in a State vehicle, and Captain Bokaba has to drive Captain Khoja.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, what portion do you wish to put?

MR VISSER: My Lord, I think the same objection applies My Lord.  At the end of the day Captain Bokaba was not involved in the pocket book or with the entry of the pocket book, I don't know where the questioning is going to go to.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know what the pocket book says, that is why I want to see, if it is something that clearly Bokaba could explain, I think he is entitled to put it.
	What passage, where do you want to go in the pocket book?

ADV MEMANI: It is in the batch My Lord, that was in my possession.  It is at page 23 to page 26.

CHAIRPERSON: This is something your client wrote, is it?  He knew about it, he could have instructed you about it, why didn't you put it to Captain Bokaba?

ADV MEMANI: Well My Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he know about it, wasn't your client able to instruct you?

ADV MEMANI: We had instructions My Lord, we did put it that we are working with Bokaba and that at times he went to Kompol Building and there was extensive cross-examination on the issues, and what I am saying is that now we have got some documentary evidence, that I would like to put to Bokaba in the light of their denial.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think Captain Bokaba knows anything about it, because this is merely a report of paying a visit isn't it?

ADV MEMANI: My Lord, the entries are, the first one says report at SA Police Kompol to see Captain Loots, you will recall that Mr Bokaba ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, there is on the next page, there is a reference to Captain Bokaba.

ADV MEMANI: That is correct My Lord, and there was also a visit to Niewoudt or something at Security Branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any objections?

MR VISSER: Speaking for myself, I believe my learned friend has the right to put this to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think so.  It did, merely as it relates to an entry made by his client at the time and it does refer to, I didn't think the Loots one was particularly relevant, because the Captain wouldn't know.

MR VISSER: I am making no suggestion on the merit of it, I simply am saying that I am sure he is entitled to put it.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you can put it, carry on.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I say something about this?  I called Captain Bokaba as a witness and because he was implicated in one or two of the matters.  My learned friend had an opportunity to cross-examine Captain Bokaba and I don't have a problem if my learned friend wants  to put a different version than the version that he put during cross-examination of Captain Bokaba.
	All I want to say My Lord, is this pocket book became available I think after Captain Bokaba gave evidence last time.

CHAIRPERSON: No, this was the pocket book that he had in his possession since the last hearing.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, but the pocket books became available My Lord, after we were into the hearing at some stage, and I think Captain Bokaba gave evidence before we had the pocket books.
	Now, the point I want to make My Lord, is I don't have any objection, this clearly corroborates Captain Bokaba's evidence that he took Mr Ngo to the Security Branch for the interview.  All I want to say My Lord, in so far as my learned friend had an opportunity to put Mr Ngo's version about this, he had the opportunity.
	If there is any other version that he is going to put My Lord, then clearly that is going to prejudice him and, but I don't have any objection My Lord, I just want to make that statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

UNKNOWN: (still under oath)

ADV MEMANI: Now, Mr Bokaba, may I refer you to entry number, do you have the pocket books in front of you?

UNKNOWN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: I have given him the pocket book that you had Mr Memani.

ADV MEMANI: I am indebted to His Lordship.  Now, Mr Bokaba, will you please turn to page 23?
	Can you see the entry dated Thursday, 7 April 1988?

UNKNOWN: I see that.

ADV MEMANI: And that entry reads that Ngo reported at SA Police Kompol to see Captain Loots?

UNKNOWN: I would say it is so, because that is what he says, and as I testified that I took him once to see Captain Loots, because I don't remember well of the date which I took him to Kompol, it might be that date which appears there.

ADV MEMANI: If you turn again to page 26, there is an entry dated Wednesday, 13 April 1988.  It says that at 07h00 Ngo went to SA Police Kompol for interview by Lieutenant Niewoudt.

UNKNOWN: I see that sir.