Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-22

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: I dispute that.  Christopher Phewa, I knew him very well from the time he was an ANC member who would attend rallies, he would be found all over in the ANC meetings and the person who is bringing out that information I don't even know him, I don't know what else he can say because I don't even know him.  I can say that person is not telling the truth if he says Mr Phewa was not an ANC member.  Yes he was an ANC member and then he changed, he became an SACP member, that happened in front of our eyes.

MS MOODLEY: Mr Madlala, I'm going to ask you for your opinion and comment in respect of this next query.  You know of information that has now come to pass in the press, all over in the country, we hear about third force elements and in relation to Wembezi this has become common cause, this has knowledge that we all know of.  What comments do you have to make in relation to that, if any, with the knowledge that you now have?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: I sometimes hear about third force from the media but I don't normally think that could be the case in our area, I don't even know how they operate.

MS MOODLEY: I want to repeat now the issue of the membership of the deceased in this matter.  The deceased we've been told was a member of the ANC.  Did you have that belief at the time when you committed this offence that he was your enemy not your personal enemy but the enemy of the organisation that you belonged to?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: Yes, I knew him as my political opponent because he was on the other side of the Amabuvo, the SACP.

MS MOODLEY: That the firearm that was used in this incident was a firearm which you were given by your organisation?

MR MALAN: No, Ms Moodley, he said he got it from another member of the ANC.

MS MOODLEY: Mr Malan, during my instructions it became apparent that the ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Then ask him about his answer, don't give him another version.  He leads the evidence, don't put words in his mouth please.

MS MOODLEY: With all due respect.  Mr Madlala, would you confirm the manner in which you received that firearm and from whom for clarity because my instructions were that you received it from a member of the organisation who had handed it to you.

MR MALAN: Yes, that was his evidence, Ms Moodley.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you Ms Moodley having a problem that we are unaware of?  His evidence has already been tendered to the effect that he was given this firearm by his uncle, one Musa Nglovo.

MS MOODLEY: I have a problem, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You have a problem.  Is that contrary to the instructions?

MS MOODLEY: In terms of my instructions it was apparent when I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you just tell him that he has given different instructions without leading him?

MS MOODLEY: Yes, the instructions, Mr Madlala to me, was that he was the commander who would hand you that firearm and not your uncle.  He might have well been your uncle but in addition he occupied an official position within the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the proper question to put to Mr Madlala would have been, was Mr Nglovu an office bearer of any sorts within your own organisation?  That's the question I think that should be put to Mr Madlala.  Mr Madlala, do you understand the question that we want you to respond to?  To your knowledge did Mr Ndglovu occupy any position within the ANC?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: He was a member, a person that I would go to sometimes and I would ask him to lend me his firearm that he was using for protection, the firearm that he was using at the time because at that particular period the commander was not with us, he had established a certain group with the SACP members.  Therefore it became extremely difficult for us to acquire firearms.  Therefore people had to struggle, had to try by all means to get some weapons to protect themselves.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ms Moodley?

MS MOODLEY: No more questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOODLEY

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, do you have any questions to put to Mr Madlala in cross-examination?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, thank you.
	Mr Madlala, I would like you to tell this Committee in your own understanding of the situation between your organisation the ANC and the Amabuvo.  What was it about the Amabuvo organisation made you as an ANC member regard them as an enemy to wage war against them?  What is it about what they did, their political activities that made you regard them as an enemy?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: What I can mention is this, the enmity was not that much except for the fact that Mr Bheki Msamango became one of the people who took the weapons of the ANC with the other members belonging to the ANC, they decided to establish another organisation, the one that they called Amabuvo, the SACP.  He decided to go to the other side and there were rumours that Mkhize was not a right person, they said he was involved in promiscuous activities and therefore he had to be killed.  That is the reason that led to some incident whereby people would be shot at without a reason and as we were confused, looking at this happening, the rumours went on and on up until such time we decided to fight because we could see that these people were prepared to destroy the ANC organisation and that was not a secret, you would get that information everywhere because they said they did not want Mkhize to be their leader, they were in their own organisation now, called Amabuvo, the SACP that is.

MS MTANGA: Can you give us an incident or maybe one of the initial incidents where the Amabuvo group led by Bheki Msamango had launched an attack against the ANC which led it to believe that they were fighting the war against you.  What incident, who was attacked, who was first attacked by the Amabuvo group under the leadership of Bheki Msamango?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: There was a day when they came, we were at a meeting, they came to attack us, they wanted to disrupt the meeting, shooting took place there and the people couldn't continue with their meeting, the ANC meeting.  Bheki Msamango was among those people who wanted to disrupt the meeting.

MR DE JAGER: Was that the meeting addressed by Mr Gwala where the shooting took place?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: There was another meeting just before Gwala arrived when Mkhize was present.

MS MTANGA: The day when you say the Amabuvo came to disrupt your meeting can you remember in which year and month did this take place?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: It is not easy for me to keep such information in my memory because it's something that took place some time ago.

MS MTANGA: Mr Madlala, my question, I'm trying to understand at what point did these people become your political rivals in the struggle because so far you've told this Committee that there were some allegations being made against Mr Mkhize and those allegations were not necessarily political, were not allegations that could render the Amabuvo political rivals, that's why I'm asking you the incidents where they felt that they were launching attacks against you and then very important for us to understand at what point exactly did those people wage war against you as an ANC?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: First of all they would come to school and shoot at us.  There were other comrades who were shot at Wembezi High, that is a sign that these people were fighting and they died.  After that Thulani was also killed, Thulani Mabasu.  There are other people, many people who followed and Gerry Zuma, a bomb was planted in his house during his sleep.

MS MTANGA: In which year did all of this take place?

THULANI CHRISTOF MADLALA: I can say towards the end of 1993 up to 1994.