Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-23

ADV PRIOR: Chair, today is the 23 November 1998.  We commence these proceedings with the amnesty application of Thapelo Patrick Maseko, Amnesty Application 5918/96.  The evidence leader is Advocate Paddy Prior.

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Madam Chair and the Honourable Members of the Committee.  My name Lungelo Mbandazayo, I'm representing the applicant in this matter, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Prior and Mr Mbandazayo.  Morning to everybody.  May I take this opportunity just to introduce the panel.  This is the first sitting of the Amnesty Committee.  The panel comprises myself, Sisi Khampepe.  On my left hand side we have Advocate Francis Bosman and on my right hand side we have Mr Wynand Malan.  Mr Prior are we ready to continue.

ADV PRIOR: May I place on record for the benefit of the public a short description of the matter?  The application concerns the killing of a Mr Goncalves who was the owner of the Westonaria Cafe at Elsburg Mine.  This event occurred during 1990.  The purpose of the - or the reason or the motivation behind this was to obtain funds on behalf of the PAC by APLA cadres.  The applicant was the commander of the unit that went out on this operation and during the obtaining of the money Mr Goncalves was fatally killed.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Prior was Mr Goncalves or Mr de Sousa?

ADV PRIOR: May I place on record that as far as the deceased is concerned, Mr Goncalves, his only living relative was his wife who apparently was fatally injured and killed two years later in a similar robbery in that area.  The partner who was in the shop at the time that Mr Goncalves was killed was a Mr Jardin.  I spoke to Mr Jardin personally on Thursday last and he indicated to me that he was not interested in the process, that he didn't want to come forward, he didn't want to make a statement and he certainly didn't want to be subpoenaed to come to this hearing.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, I just wanted to correct for the record that the surname of the deceased is in fact Mr de Sousa, the first name is Goncalves.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, are we ready to proceed with your first witness?

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Madam Chair, we are ready to proceed, may the applicant be sworn in Madam Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: What language does he speak?

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: He is using Sotho.

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: (sworn states)

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Madam Chair and Honourable Members of the Committee.  Madam Chair, you have an affidavit which we'll be using as a basis leading evidence in this matter which we just gave you this morning, copies of the affidavit.   Madam Chair, sometimes the Members of the Committee have certain preplans in regarding leading of evidence, whether we should read the whole affidavit or whether he should confirm the affidavit and lead him on certain aspects?

ADV PRIOR: Maybe it's better that he confirms the affidavit and you lead him in certain aspects that you feel are critical to his application.

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Madam Chair.
	Mr Maseko, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Honourable Committee.  Do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by it's contents?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Yes I confirm.

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.  Madam Chair, I'll start with paragraph 9 of the affidavit.
	Mr Maseko, can you tell the Committee about this unit you were head of, this repossession unit which was codenamed Beauty Salon, how was this unit structured and how did it function, for the benefit of the Committee?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Thank you Chairperson.  Firstly I'd like to say I was the commander of this unit and it was my responsibility to form other units, units that would be under my command.  But with this one I was in command I had many foot soldiers working under me.  The members were Lumumba Thelo Sumbele, Thabiso and Mbush, with this particular unit I'm referring to.

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Maseko, I'm coming to the unit, specific unit which was involved in this incident which you are applying amnesty for, now what I want to tell Committee is about the structure of the repossession unit which you were head of, that you were heading and it was codename Beauty Salon.

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: Could you repeat the question?

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Maseko, you had in APLA unit called repossession unit which was headed by yourself and I understand you were reporting directly to the Director of Operations.  Now I want you to tell the Committee about the unit as a whole, that is the repossession unit.

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: The unit that was termed the repossession unit was the special unit which was formulated by the PAC as well as the high commander of APLA and our main job functions were to repossess, especially money, cars, jewellery, every article or item that was valuable in order to generate income for APLA and to be able to buy arms and ammunition in order to further our struggle.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, I don't want to interfere with how you want to lead your witness but it would appear that you are struggling to get the chain of command from your applicant.  Maybe if you were to make it quite clear to him what is it that you want?   You do not seem to be addressing ...[intervention]

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I will explain this.  I was reporting to the Director of Operations.  The Director of Operations in turn reported to the Secretary for Defence and whatever we did or whatever happened that is below me was reported to me personally, that is the foot soldiers were reporting to me.

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Madam Chair.
	Now Mr Maseko, let's come now to this particular incident.  Now can you tell the Committee who identified this place as a target and how was it identified?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: We received some information beforehand.  After we had received this information we went to do some reconnaissance to establish the true facts of whatever information we had received beforehand.  I sent one of my soldiers and we thereafter went all together.

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee step by step as to your planning and as to how it was executed?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: After having reconnoitred, we had to go to the particular spot.  As the commander, I divided my unit into three parts.  One was the assault group and the second one was the support group and the last one was the cut out group.  The assault group was going to go into the area and do the job.  The support unit was going to support the assault group and the cut out would stand outside and check out for any disturbances or any approaching persons.

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee in which group did you belong yourself, as the commander?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: I was in the cut out group.

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee what happened after you arrived at this place?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: When we got there, the assault group went inside and the support group was waiting at the door in order to assist if there was any need for it to assist us and the cut out members, we were waiting outside to keep watch of whatever was happening.  I knew that the assault group was going to launch the attack and take the money.  As a result, I will not be able to expatiate as to what they did inside.

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee, put it in a clear light, was your purpose going there to take only money or was also to attack the people in the business?

THAPELO PATRICK MASEKO: It is true that we went there to retrieve money.  We knew that white people were our enemies as well as our target.  Even if they were killed, that was still in the line of our objectives but it cannot be said that the main objective was to take money, we had to take money and to kill if we had to.