Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-25

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was so Mr Chairperson, but they were sleeping tablets which would just put them to sleep Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but as I've already said to you, they may have tasted fowl.  They were not designed to be dissolved in liquid and drank were they?  They were to be swallowed.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson if I reflect, that tablet did dissolve and I think I added more sugar to make the coffee sweeter, I don't know - that's if I have to think back.

MR PHOSA: Aren't you adding more sugar now in your story?  Anyway, you don't have to answer that one.  You see, did you mix this stuff and the sugar and do the testing at all?  Did you test the stuff?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: Did you find out whether it required more sugar at all?  If you did - look I know you're surmising, assuming you did - it's a difficult thing to ask, assuming you did do that, would you have tasted if it required more sugar?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: So it might not have required more sugar, it might have been sweet itself - very sweet?  I'll say for all you know it could have been very sweet.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It is so Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: Were you in a hurry, why do you - look, if you look back now you reflect, can you see this is strange - your conduct was strange, can you see that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, at this stage it creates the impression that my behaviour was strange but to me it wasn't strange Mr Chairperson, because we had already planned that they had to be shot during the planning phase that was and we just wanted to see to it that they were asleep that's all.

MR PHOSA: I did tell you that we were challenging your story.  Now when did you ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going on to something else?

MR PHOSA: No, no, this one - the same point ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: On the sleeping pills?

MR PHOSA: Yes, yes.  When did you do your examinations to be a lieutenant?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: In 1981, I wrote the examination, in 1982, I passed.

MR PHOSA: Because according to your application here, you became a lieutenant in 1983.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct, but the examinations which I wrote were written in 1982 and the course was in 1983.

MR PHOSA: You mean you wrote the exam over two years?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, may I just explain?  At that stage they would allow you to the examination over a certain period or they would allow you a certain period to complete and gain admission to the examination.  Then during that year I passed some of my subjects which I repeated in 1982 because in one subject I got sick in '81 and I completed that subject in '82.
	In 1983 then, I went on course, that was how the procedure worked.  You had to be in service before hand for a certain period before you could gain admission to the examination, so there were procedures which followed or which had to be followed at the time - just as an explanation of how it worked.

MR PHOSA: Okay, let's take that.  Now most people I know of, in fact all that I've come across who need any substance to assist them whilst they write exams, they're struggling to keep awake - not to fall asleep, they don't want to sleep.  Don't you know that people want to keep awake to pass exams?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so but I didn't have that problem, I just wished to stop my thoughts when I went to sleep and that's why I approached a doctor because I had to rest, that's why I used the tablets.  It may seem like a story but that's the way I studied Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: I'm sorry, I know that I gave the impression that it seems strange.  I mean if you say you wanted to stop your thoughts whilst you go asleep, what does that mean?  You could fall asleep, then you'd stop thinking.  You see Mr Nieuwoudt, it might sound like a joke - the whole idea is that your story sounds exactly what we think it is, it sounds false to us.
	In other words, we are saying that you had a substance - if you did use a substance, it was a substance that was known to you to be dangerous and you did not get it from your doctor, you go it from some special person.  Do you disagree with that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I deny this very strongly Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: Since we're dealing with that aspect, let's just finish it quickly.  I don't want the details again for obvious reasons but it appears that you - not appears, it is clear you had the nerve to be with these unfortunate young people from the time of abduction, to pretend that you were interrogating them, you personally went - even deviated and got yourself - got some diesel out of your own money - pocket.
	When you couldn't do it that night, you didn't postpone it, isn't that so?  You were so bent on it, even when it was not easy to do you decided another 24 hours.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson, we had already decided when I was involved the first time, that we would abduct them and eliminate them and the decision was taken there, there were no other aims or objectives Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: Yes well I may be making the mistake of thinking that there is a human element in you.  I'm trying to appeal to your - I'm trying to show how you completely were devoid of it and I thought you'd concede that it was a terrible thing to do.  I'm suggesting that when people were in - at your mercy, not knowing they're going to be killed, you could just go on giving the impression things are normal - give them coffee and once the opportunity presents for maybe abandoning the idea, you rather sleep and wait and wait 24 hours.  Do you understand what I'm suggesting - that you're so cruel?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, it was a covert action and the reason why we waited until the next day, I was so well known, Mr du Plessis was well known and somebody could just have seen us on the evening of the 14th when we abducted the late Mr Siphiwe Mthimkhulu or the late Mr Topsi Madaka and that is the reason why we only eliminated them the next evening.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm afraid I don't understand that, could you explain it a little further?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I was very well known, Mr du Plessis was very well known, we abducted them in public, somebody could have spotted us and then our whole covert operation would have been foiled and there would have been witnesses and that is why we didn't do this immediately.

ADV SANDI: Can you give us more picture about the circumstances in which abduction occurred.  You had information from your informers that these two gentlemen were going to be at Holiday Inn, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: What were they going to be doing there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: If I remember correctly, I was under the impression that they would meet a lady friend there who worked there.  That was the information that I had received from my source.

ADV SANDI: Did that information come to you before they went there or when you got the information they were already there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, may I just explain my actions?  After I had become involved in the planning and had activated the necessary sources to monitor them, all physical and non-physical sources were activated and earlier during the day he had visited Livingstone hospital, after that he went to a certain address - Mrs Mtanga in Kwazakele, if I remember correctly - I don't have independent recollection of this fact and then they were to have gone to the Holiday Inn.  That is the way the scenario progressed, if I remember correctly now.