Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-17

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: He was alone.  He came alone to that office, but there were people who were speaking in the passage.  I could hear that they were talking to Superintendent Mbi.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, what happened?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: He greeted us and he asked how we were and he said that he was sent to take us to the College.  We asked what was happening and he said that he didn't know.   We had to hurry because the people he was with, would come and take us by force if we were not willing to go with him at the time.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: We then took the caps and we went with Captain Gqibithole, Superintendent Mbi joined us and then crossed to the office of the Commissioner.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: When we arrived there, a casspir and a van were parked there.  Captain Skepe was the driver, he was a Warrant Officer or a Sergeant at the time, but now he is a Captain today, Captain Skepe was the driver of the van.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So you got into the van and you went to the Police College?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: We wanted to get into the casspir because we could see that the van was small, but we were told to get out of the casspir because the casspir was very comfortable, so we were told to get inside the van.  We wanted to get in the front seat and the Skepe said that no, we must go at the back, it was their chance to take the front seat.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So you were not given any choice?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes?  What happened?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: We then indeed got at the back of the van.  Before we could do that, Skepe I could see that he knew what he wanted from us, he then said there was misappropriation of money.  He said that if it was up to him, he was going to take us to Spunzana Police station at that particular time.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, what happened?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: I told him not to close the van outside, because it was hot.   He then said that we would jump out of the van if it was not closed and we would injure ourselves, so he closed the van and we went to the College.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Was he alone in the front?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: There was another Police with him, but I didn't know that Police.  I can't even identify that Police today because the situation was bad at that time, I was also scared of what was happening.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When you arrived at the College, what happened?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: We got out of the van and we were told to go through the entrance of the hall at the side.  We went inside and we were told to go to the stage.

MR NOMPOZOLO: At the stage, what happened?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: We were sitting down and they were singing songs and I didn't know what was happening because I was scared, it was said that I have to go to a cell.  People were singing and I was confused, I didn't know what was happening.  After some time, I could see that there was a lot of things happening there.  What surprised me or what scared me was that Sergeant Nkwenkwe, the one who testified here, he stood up with a microphone in his hand.  He was giving us this microphone, telling us to give out our names, our stations and when we joined the Force.  I did say those things and when I was giving the microphone to Gqibithole because he was the last one, he was told to raise up his voice because there was a lot of noise there.  I was scared and the person who spoke for me, was the sister of Captain Gqibithole, the one who was together with us.  He said that they knew that I can't raise my voice.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, just then, what is it that you were supposed to say?  What were you told to say?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: They asked what my name was and when I joined the Force, where was I stationed.  That is all.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, continue, what happened?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: While we were still sitting there, they discussed this issue about the misappropriation of funds and I looked to Major Halani, the Investigator who was with Major Kopel, I looked directly to them.  I was wondering whether he could see what was happening.  He then stood up, he said that there were people who were clever there.  He wanted them to stop this and then this stopped and then after that, we sat down.  We spent the night there and the issues about the Sports Club money and the Orphan's Fund was raised and because we were the Finance Department, we were asked about those issues.  We were then taken to the Finance as the Police went there to count that money.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, let's talk about you now.  Did you want to go to the Police College?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: At that time, there was no reason for me to go there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Did you want to stay in that meeting?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: I can't talk anything about the meeting, because I was not even warned or told about the meeting in the first place.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Did you want to stay the whole night at the Police College?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: I didn't want to stay there the whole night, I didn't want to stay there, but I was forced to stay there the whole night.

MR NOMPOZOLO: I see.  Were there any people who were armed in the hall?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: Almost all the Police that were there, were armed.  I did not have my firearm with me, but a lot of the Police that were there, were armed.

MR NOMPOZOLO: With what were they armed?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: R5's.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, was there a situation that it would seem as if you were guarded or prevented from leaving the hall?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When did you ultimately leave the hall?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: It was during the morning, it was in the morning when I left.  It was when we were told to go and count the money.  We also went to the Police station, that is where we were charged, we were formally charged, then we got out on R100 bail.  I then arrived at home at about ten o'clock.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes.  You have already said that in the morning you went to count money, what money was that?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: Sports Club money and Widows' and Orphans' Fund.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Can you tell the Commission whether during the day of the 22nd and the evening and the morning of the 23rd, whether there was anything political which was discussed with you?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: No.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You have heard the applicants testifying, on what they were saying, is there anything that you disagree with that they were not telling the truth about?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What is it?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: First of all, they didn't say that when I was there I was given a microphone to speak and everything that was happening to me.  There was no need for that if that was a political meeting.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes.  What else did they not tell the truth about?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: The other thing is that they are saying that everybody was supposed to be in that meeting, even though I was not given a warning to go to that meeting.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes.  Now, during the whole incident, how did you feel, did you feel happy or were you unhappy about the whole thing?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: I was unhappy, even today I am not happy because I am leaving the Police Force at the end of the month.  I am not well since that day.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes.  What are you suffering from?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: Major depression.  I have panic attacks, I cannot sleep well, that never happened in my life, treated badly by young children because some of them were younger than me.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Were there any things which they were saying to you, like were they calling you father, like it would be expected of them?