Amnesty Hearings — Richards Bay — 1998-04-23

SISI KHAMPEPE: My question, let me put it to you again. You would not be able to say that before you went to Eshowe Mr Mkhize had not had plans to proceed to Durban to eliminate Mr Gomede? You would not be able to can say that?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I would not know about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Stewart do you have any questions arising?

MR STEWART: Just one area. Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Dlamini you will have noticed that if I am interpreting things correctly there is a concern here as to whether or not Mr Silas Sthele whom you have mentioned was involved in any way in the burning of the body of Nate Gomede. Now I want you to think about this carefully. If you recall yesterday there was a confusion which had to be cleared up by Advocate Mpshe about the mother of one Gdinga. Because she had to come here and clear her name. Now you must think carefully because the same situation might arise in relation to Mr Silas Sthele. If it happened that you went and you got petrol from some one such as Mr Silas Sthele would you have told that person why you needed that petrol? In other words what I am asking you is did Mr Silas Sthele know that you were using petrol from him for the burning of a body?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I would not think so.

MR STEWART: So (...indistinct) your answer is that you d not think that Mr Silas Sthele had an involvement in that incident?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I can just say that we got the petrol from his home.

MR STEWART: Thank you Mr Chairperson no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Stewart. Mr Wills do you have any questions arising?

MR WILLS: Yes I have one arising from Mrs Khampepe's questioning. Mr Dlamini, Andile was not a member of your hit squad, is that correct?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now is it not so that the sole purpose of him being in the car before you got to Eshowe when you left Esikoweni was for him to identify where Nate Gomede was residing in Durban? That is why he was in the car with you, is that correct?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Thank you. No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills. Mr Ngubane do you have any questions arising?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman I have none thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane. Mr Hewit do you have any questions arising?

MR HEWIT: No, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mpshe do you have any questions?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Nothing Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you Mr Dlamini you may stand down.
WITNESS IS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stewart does that conclude the evidence relating to incidents that occurred in Esikoweni and this area of Northern Zululand?

MR STEWART: In so far as the evidence of the applicants themselves is concerned, yes. I intend calling no further witnesses at this hearing thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. So am I then correct that we have no more evidence at all for this hearing is that so Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there no more evidence?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: There is no more evidence Mr Chairman. In as far as the hearings in this area is concerned they stop today.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I would just like to explain now to the people present.

MR NGUBANE: Sorry Mr Chairman, sorry to interrupt you. I do concede that there is no more evidence that is to be led. There was the question of the subpoena of Doctor Nthlathla which was dealt with. I am receiving conflicting instructions at the moment. We hope to sort out the matter after the meeting between the victims and the applicants have taken place. And maybe tomorrow I will be in a position to clarify my position on that score.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Ngubane do you intend to lead any evidence from the objectors side?

MR NGUBANE: At the moment I do not have instructions to lead any evidence. We will hear from the meeting what is happening and if there is any evidence we will then lead evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: So do I understand from that, that there may be evidence led but you do not know and if there is will that be tomorrow? Because I want to know now whether we adjourn now for the resumed hearing elsewhere or whether we adjourn now until tomorrow?

MR NGUBANE: If there is we may need just one tomorrow, just one or two people tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: So what you are saying is we should adjourn until tomorrow because there may be some evidence?

MR NGUBANE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So I think then we must do that because we do not want the situation to arise where we have to come back just for some evidence that could probably be dealt with in the morning. I may indicate Mr Ngubane that we should try to conclude by lunch time tomorrow because people have to catch planes in the afternoon.

MR NGUBANE: I do understand Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes in the circumstances then we will adjourn until tomorrow in this hall. There may be some more evidence tomorrow there may be not. It depends on the outcome or what happens at a meeting that is going to take place this afternoon between the applicants and their legal representatives and the victims and their legal representative. Arising out of that meeting it may be decided that there is going to be evidence tomorrow. On the other hand they may decide not to have any evidence in which event this matter will then be postponed to a further date which will be advised tomorrow because this hearing includes a lot more incidents than what we have heard here during the past two weeks. There is a number of incidents that also took place in the Hammersdale, Mpumalanga areas and we as a committee will be taking the hearing down to that area where we will hear further evidence and the applicants will again, those who were involved in incidents down there, testify. And then after the applicants have finally finishing testifying then witnesses there may also testify if they wish and also here implicated persons may wish to testify. By the way Mr Hewit is there any implicated person having an interest to testify at this stage of the proceedings here in Esikoweni?

MR HEWIT: I will take instructions on that. But I do not think so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Because if a victim or implicated person wishes to testify in respect of incidents that took place here and they do not testify tomorrow they will also have the opportunity to testify at Mpumalanga.
Mr Chairman may I enjoy your indulgence please and respond to what Mr Ngubane has just said It would appear I am the only person who seems to worry more about logistics and arrangements as far as hearings are concerned. Seeing that the victims are going to remain after we shall have adjourned and Mr Ngubane will be consulting with them now, is it not possible for him as soon as he knows from them today to announce to the (...indistinct) that we will not sit or will sit tomorrow. I am avoiding transporting people in here only to be told and we pay for the buses, to be told that no hearing is going on. If he could take advantage of the fact that they are going to remain, they are going to talk to them now then we can announce to the people whether we are going on or not tomorrow. Please Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes would there be any objection to that? In which event then this matter would have to be formally postponed. When would that on your scenario be done Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is that the other hearings in Mpumalanga Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman we have agreed on the week of the 25th in May month.

CHAIRPERSON: 25th of May?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The 25th that one week.

CHAIRPERSON: Are we all available then?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: All the committee members are available. I have checked that.

MR MOLOI: Mr Chairman I will not be available in that week. I have no commitment on the 26th, 27 and 28.