Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-20

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, are you now certain that after the victim was killed and the eyes were removed, nothing else was done to the victim?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: Is it also correct thereafter you all went back home to cleanse yourselves of this act?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, after all was done, do you know what had become of the body?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I would not know what happened to the corpse after we had left.

MR PANDAY: Did you know if anyone returned to the scene of the murder?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I cannot remember that happening.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know where the police found the corpse?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, the police found the corpse on the very same spot where we had left it, that is according to the information that I got on our arrest.

ADV DE JAGER: And the corpse was buried there in a plastic bag.

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That's news to me.  I do not remember him being put in a plastic bag.

ADV DE JAGER: Wasn't that the evidence of the doctor at the trial, that they found the corpse in a plastic bag?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: What I can recall and that which was said by the Judge as well is that the deceased was mutilated and his liver was removed as well and my co-accused equally explained that they knew nothing about that, they were only hearing about that for the first time in court.

CHAIRPERSON: It in fact, Mr Dlamini, you will recall that during the trial, one of the witnesses and that is both children, Fano and Bekho, gave evidence to the fact that not only the eyes of the deceased were removed, but further that his heart was also removed and that this was cut out from the body of the deceased and cooked and eaten by all 16 of you who had participated or associated yourselves with the deceased's killing.  You recall that evidence, don't you?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, I do remember that evidence very well, but I cannot say what happened to the corpse thereafter, I don't know anything about what happened to the corpse thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: You are saying to this Committee that as far as you can recall the facts and you've been able to recall the facts quite clearly, whilst you were there, you did not notice Lucky or any of your compatriots removing any part of the deceased's body, other than his eyes, is that what you are saying?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you also refuting the evidence that was led at the ...(indistinct) that you partook in the eating of the deceased's heart?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I do not remember that.  Yes, the judge made mention of that but I explained to them that I was hearing that for the first time.  Eating a person, for me, no.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want you to tell me what the judge said, I want you to tell me whether you did not participate in the eating of either the heart or the liver of the deceased.  Did you?  It's something that you would know, that would be within your knowledge.  Did you or did you not eat a part of the deceased?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No, I've never eaten any part of his body.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if you contend that the reason why his eyes were removed was to remove any kind of evidence that would be left for the police to follow, why then did you not ensure that the eyes are not only left next to the body of the deceased, but are destroyed, because they would then have been able to still send a trail, at least your trail amongst others, of your whereabouts?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, the eyes remained behind next to the corpse.  We were not worrying about many things, so that we left the eyes there, because the place was also hidden.

CHAIRPERSON: But you left the eyes next to the corpse, did you not?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now didn't you think it was one prized item that you had to ensure that it got totally destroyed, as to make sure not to leave any trail that would lead to your arrest?  Wouldn't the police have been able, on discovering the eyes, even though they were no longer inside the body of the deceased, would they not have been able to still take pictures of you?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: It never occurred to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Why, if the reason for the removal of the eye is as you put it?  The second step and the only step to follow thereafter would be to make sure that every evidence is destroyed that is associated with the eyes.

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I had concluded that once the eyes had been removed from his body, that would be it.  It would not be easy for the police to get traces of us.

CHAIRPERSON: So the police would be able to get traces of you as long as the eyes remained inside the body of the deceased and you then speculated that the evidence would be completely destroyed by the mere removal of the eyes from the deceased's body, is that what you are saying?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that's what I'm saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, are you sure that after the eyes were removed, the body was merely left by the plantation, nothing else was done to the body?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is correct, everything was left behind.

MR PANDAY: Nobody had in any way attempted to bury the body?  Are you sure of that as well?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No, I cannot recall any attempt to bury the corpse.

MR PANDAY: The reason I ask you this is that the doctor that gave evidence, says that the body was found in a shallow grave, in a decomposing state.  You wouldn't be able to offer any explanation for the shallow grave?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I cannot dispute or accept that, because all I did was that I left the corpse in that state.

MR MALAN: Just to make doubly sure, your evidence was that all of you left the scene.  Nobody stayed behind and if I recall the sequence, you were the last to leave in the company of Lucky, those were the last two that left the scene.  Is that correct?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is not correct.

MR MALAN: Well will you then please tell us again?  You told us that everybody left.  You said the two young boys left, the other three co-accused and you said that yourself and Lucky were the last names that you gave us that left the scene, but you confirmed that all of you left the scene.  Tell me then, who was the last to leave the scene?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: We all left at the same time, but we were behind, but walking back home with the same group.

MR MALAN: Yes, in a footpath, I think was your evidence.

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Can you remember where did you walk in this sequence?  Were you walking at the back?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, I was behind.

MR MALAN: Was Lucky in front of you?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Lucky was following me from behind.

MR MALAN: Was anyone following Lucky from behind?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No.

MR MALAN: Are you sure that Lucky was following you?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, I am sure.

MR MALAN: 100% sure?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes.

MR MALAN: Did Lucky not perhaps stay behind to bury the corpse?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No, I cannot recall because we were chatting and smoking as we were walking back home.

MR MALAN: What were you smoking?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Cigarettes.

MR MALAN: I think somewhere in Lucky's statement he talks about smoking dagga on occasion.  You were not smoking dagga on that day?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: We used to smoke dagga at any time, on that day as well.

MR MALAN: Did you smoke dagga on that day as well?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Not at the time when we left the corpse.  We were smoking cigarettes when we left the corpse.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Yes, Madam Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still going to be long because if that is so, I would propose that we break for lunch and ...(intervention)

MR PANDAY: We continue after lunch.

CHAIRPERSON: Will it be too much of an inconvenience if we were to adjourn for 30 minutes instead of an hour?

MR PANDAY: No, it's fine, 30 minutes is fine.