Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-18

MR HUGO: And how much money would be given? Were there fixed amounts in respect of people that were killed?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No there was no fixed amount. But in relation to weapons there was. If it is an AK, limpet mine or whatever there was a fixed amount. But in relation to different items I would not know what the standard amount would be.

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman I think this is another aspect where my client will testify as to what the structures were, what the policies were, etc, etc. I don't think this particular witness can take it any further.
	Lastly Mr Shabalala, Mr de Kock says and his recollection is also not very clear on this. You might be right or he might be wrong but let me put it to you. He says that his recollection is that you were never then after this incident put on the records of the police force again and that you were registered as a source of the police force and that you got paid out of the secret fund instead of being put back on the formal records of the police force. What is your recollection as far as that is concerned?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: After this incident before having changed my ID's until it was changed I stayed on getting the salary in cash to pay my house, a subsidy house. They used to pay me in cash and whatever amounts I need to get I would get in cash. It took some time that I got that amount. Even when I get my money of my new appointment certificate my money was reduced. They still proceeded giving me cash trying to make up for the shortfall so that I could pay for my house.

MR HUGO: But do I understand from you that after this incident you were paid in cash? You never got a cheque from the police?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I can say I used to get a cheque and then added cash over and above it.

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman we will deal with this matter once more as one of the things that my client will be able to shed light on. I have no further questions.

MR HUGO: .

CHAIRPERSON: I do not know to what extent if any the documents that you may not have seen which are in possession of Mr Mapoma might not necessitate your further questioning of Mr Shabalala on matters arising from those documents. Perhaps during the tea adjournment if you can just scan through those documents and see whether there is anything that might arise from those documents. And also during the cross-examination by other members of the legal team.

MR HUGO: Yes I will certainly try and do that. Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dilizo.

MR DILIZO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman the same thing will also apply with me. I would love before I could finish my cross-examination to have had access to the documents which have been referred to also by Mr Hugo. But I will be able to commence with my cross-examination now.

CHAIRPERSON: From the Committee's standpoint we would love to see your face when you cross-examine this witness.

MR DILIZO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think you could swop places. Mr Hugo if you could just move onto the next seat yes. Very well.

MR DILIZO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shabalala that there is the statement which appears on page 63 of the bundle in respect of which you have denied knowledge and authorship. Can you be in a position to explain to this Committee how come that such a statement was found in this bundle?

CHAIRPERSON: The answer would be that whoever put together the bundle must have put it here. You probably should ask him does he know how the statement came to exist at all. Is that what you are trying to find out first?

MR DILIZO: Into existence. I would love to know whether he is in a position to tell us as to how come that this document was ever authored.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes indeed. Do you understand the question Mr Shabalala?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I hear the question.

MR DILIZO: So what is your answer Mr Shabalala?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: My answer. I will only give an answer to a question.

CHAIRPERSON: The question that is being put to you is if you say you did not make this statement to Colonel Willy do you know where this statement then come from?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I do not know.

MR DILIZO: Would you agree with the impression that it must therefore have been intended to make some cover-ups with regard to the death of Batandwa?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It is over who will be the one to properly give an answer. I did not even read it. I do not know it.

MR DILIZO: Yes my point is that when looking at it one would gain the impression that it was intended to deface the actual facts with regard to the facts relating to the death of Batandwa. Would you agree with that impression or not?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It is so because it does not contain any truth in it.

MR DILIZO: Were you aware of any cover-ups that perhaps were being perpetrated by your superiors with regard to the death of the so-called terrorist?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I do not know of any cover-ups.

MR DILIZO: So was the change of your surname not also intended to be cover-up with regard to identity as a culprit in the case of Batandwa Ndondo?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes that was a cover-up as far as I can see, the issue of my ID.

MR DILIZO: Did that not convey the impression to you that your superiors were in favour of such killings of the so-called terrorists?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes that is so.

MR DILIZO: And therefore that even the death of Batandwa Ndondo had been approved by your superiors in view of the fact that there were these certain cover-ups?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I will agree and say that that is correct.

MR DILIZO: Mr Shabalala would perhaps these cover-ups not have had a certain effect in your memory with regard to the remembrance of the date in question? In that for instance there are statements like the one appearing from page 63 of which you are not aware. There is the question of the change of ownership. Matters like that could they not have had any bearing in affecting your memory with regard to the events of the date in question?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: All of these things did not disturb my statement and have not affected my ability to give a proper statement right now.

MR DILIZO: So the statement you made which appears from page, that is starts from page 71 of the bundle up to page 79 of the bundle are the facts contained therein not have to a certain extent been affected by these cover-ups to the extent that you might have not have properly remembered them?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: (...indistinct) at this statement that was signed by me I can only say it reflects what I remembered. That was not affected by anything. It was simply all of that I recalled. I tried my best to recollect all what happened.

MR DILIZO: So that in your evidence you testified that it is Mr Dandala who went into the house to call Batandwa. Was that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Correct.

MR DILIZO: And even in your statement appearing from page 71 to 79 you also stated, Mr Chairman I think that statement is on page 74 of the record at the bottom. I will read it more or less. The last sentence which starts with the word
"After Batandwa was identified we drove a little way past the house and made a U-turn. And Uncle Mos called Batandwa Ndondo who was still in the garden of the house where he had stopped with the vehicle. Batandwa walked closer. Uncle Mos told Batandwa that we were policemen and simultaneously Dandala showed his Transkeian police appointment certificate to Batandwa."
So my point of emphasis there is that Batandwa Ndondo was still in the yard when according to this statement Uncle Mos called him and he came towards you. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I can say there is a mistake in this statement. That is a mistake in this statement. It does not connect to what I know in this statement. There is a mistake here that does not tie up with what I know.

CHAIRPERSON: What? Tell us that mistake?