Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: As who?

MR RICHARD: As Silver.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: No, I didn't know that one.

MR RICHARD: Would you agree that your suspicions regarding the deceased, Sicelo, after his so-called disappearance in October 1987, were based on pure speculation?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: It's best for me to say suspecting him and speculation it is different, but the fact that he disappeared brought some concern to us, it was a cause for concern, his disappearance that is.

MR RICHARD: And it was his disappearance that was your primary concern, and whether he had reported on you or not, correct or not correct?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't follow your question.

MR RICHARD: What was your concern as a result of his disappearance?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: You want to go back then I will go back to what I have already said yesterday.  Must I?

MR RICHARD: When he disappeared what was the result in your mind?  It made you concerned, didn't it, yes or no?  I think you've said yes yesterday.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: And what was Mr Dube's principle concern as a result?  Was it to do with finding him or recovering the weapon?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Please repeat your question.

MR RICHARD: What was Mr Dube's concern, was it to locate Sicelo or to locate the supposedly missing weapon?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Firstly, the concern was based on his disappearance, stemming from the fact that he was a cell member and knowing the cell's regulations that you don't disappear for no apparent reason because you are working together with other people who have weapons as well.  In other words if you are not present and we don't know as to where you are you pose a problem to us.  And the security was of vast importance, therefore your disappearance becomes a concern to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know he had been arrested?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, I knew.

CHAIRPERSON: This is in October?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: That's very true.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know if he had been released?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What, you knew he'd been released?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know that he - you knew he had been arrested in October, did you know that he had been released from arrest?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, I knew.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you know that?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I'm not certain as to when inasfar as time is concerned, but I knew that or I was aware of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Shortly after his arrest or only when you saw him again?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I heard immediately.

CHAIRPERSON: That he'd been released.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: From whom did you get that information?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't quite remember as to who uttered that to me, but I know that happened.

MR RICHARD: You didn't get it from the deceased?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: But I thought you were aware that I did not see him immediately, so how could he have told me that?

MR RICHARD: Now if I tell you he reported his arrest and detention and assault to his then attorney immediately thereafter, would you be in a position to dispute it?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: No, I won't dispute it because I was not there.

MR RICHARD: Now - and if I put it to you further that his decision to leave Soweto and to stop living at home was so as to avoid further arrests, would you able to dispute that, comment on it?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I won't dispute that either because I don't know his whereabouts, or I did not know his whereabouts.

MR RICHARD: But you also agree you could have done far more to locate him than what was done?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I hear the statement, I am not sure if you are asking me a question.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand what you have told us a few minutes ago, your feeling was that he as a member of the cell should have told you what he had done and where he had gone because the practice was if he was to go away for more than a day he should report it, is that so?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, that is true.

MR RICHARD: But you had been asked to look for him, hadn't you?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I agree to that.

MR RICHARD: And my proposition is you could have done a lot more to find him than was done, do you agree with that or not?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I explained to you that I did not run all over the place looking for him because he should have come to me as well.

MR RICHARD: When the deceased came to  your house on the day, that Sunday, were you not personally anxious to find out where he had been between October and January?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I did have interests.

MR RICHARD: Did you ask him?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: No, I did not.

MR RICHARD: So that morning you made no effort at all to question him, if I recall your evidence from yesterday.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: That is true what you've just said.

CHAIRPERSON: Well how is that?  I find it very hard to understand that you now see a member of your cell, someone you had worked with, who disappeared for three months and he reappears but you don't say to him;  where have you been?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I thought I'd addressed that yesterday, am I supposed to repeat it today again?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you are.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I did.

CHAIRPERSON: You did what?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: When he presented himself to us on Sunday I only said to him that there is an important thing that we have to discuss.  I don't know as to what he was planning.  He looked like he was planning to go somewhere and I said to him he must go and come, in fact there is something we have to him about.  We let go of him and he came back.  I wanted him to explain during Dube's presence as well, as to where he was.  Another thing I highlighted was the last time we spoke about him we did agree that when he comes or when comes back to us we should ask him and he should account.
	I think what I did was right because I wanted him to furnish the explanation in the presence of the commander, not to me alone.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were his commander.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: That I don't dispute.

CHAIRPERSON: And he had disappeared for three months, now suddenly you had a chance, he was there, but you say you didn't ask him you said; oh go away and come back later and we'll ask you.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: That's what I said.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Richard.
	Do you mean to say that you did not even indicate to him that this important thing you wanted to discuss with him was about him having disappeared?  You did not indicate that?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: No, I did not.

ADV SANDI: You just said there was an important thing which you had to discuss with him?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now we've heard a lot of evidence about a chain of command, were you not his commander and accordingly he was responsible to you?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I will again repeat, it was so.

MR RICHARD: And we've heard Mr Dube say that he couldn't report to Mr Dumakude, he could only report to Mr Grasskopf, wouldn't the same have applied to you?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Please don't compare the two situations, that is Dube's situation with Aquino and mine as well, don't compare the two situations.

CHAIRPERSON: You had recruited him hadn't you?  You recruited Sicelo, you made him a member of your cell.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: You were responsible for him.  You were the link between him and Mr Dube.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But you never asked him a thing yourself, you never asked for an explanation.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Am I supposed to lie, am I supposed to lie now?

CHAIRPERSON: No.  Does this mean that you and Mr Dube had already come a decision about the deceased and that you weren't really interested in finding out where he'd been?