Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-01

MR HEWITT: There you were asked to furnish particulars, any acts, omissions or offences associated with a political object which you committed, and you have listed three.  Under (i) you have listed three separate offences or acts which you claim indemnity for, do you see that?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Under (i) on the copy which I have, it has got Empangeni with a line drawn through it and then exchange of fire.  Okay, then please turn to a memorandum in support of your application, which appears on the copy which I have been given, at page 32, do you have that?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: There again you divide that up into also three different sections, and presumably corresponding with the different sections we have referred to on page 26, the first page?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: What is the exchange of fire that you are asking for amnesty for?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: It is a discharge, in actual fact it is supposed to say a discharge of a firearm at Empangeni.

MR HEWITT: You say it should read discharge.

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Not exchange.

MR HEWITT: Not exchange?  And the Empangeni which is crossed out, presumably that is a mistake, it should refer to Empangeni, shouldn't it?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes, why not.

MR HEWITT: It should be there?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Because it seems quite clear from page 32, your memorandum that what you are asking for amnesty for ...

CHAIRPERSON: I think the Empangeni is scratched out because he realised he wrote it at the wrong place, it should have been where it is in fact written next to (iii).

MR HEWITT: At the bottom, but it is referring to the same incident that you have given evidence about, namely the discharge of a firearm in September 1984 at this meeting over your activities as a school teacher, is that right?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: That is right.

MR HEWITT: What do you believe you did wrong on that occasion?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: There is nothing.  As I am saying, the mere fact that you had a gun in South Africa at that time, which was carrying an illegal weapon, the mere fact that you discharged it, is still an offence at the end of the day.

MR HEWITT: All right.  So your present application involves applying for amnesty for having that gun unlawfully in your possession that night, and discharging it over the heads of these people?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Is that right?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: You don't believe that you've already got amnesty in respect of that incident?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: For me, why it is there in actual fact, is that if you are addressing the TRC, they wanted your history, where do you come from, how did you leave the country.  This is one of the reasons why I have actually put it up there.
	It is the discharge of a firearm at Empangeni, as cited as one of the incidents that led me out of the country.

MR HEWITT: When you were arrested on these two attempted murder charges that we have heard about, namely the attempted murder of Ms Mchunu and also the attempted murder on Mr Khumalo, were you informed that those attempted murders, the allegations related to incidents involving you the same night as this meeting in September, took place in September 1984?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: That is the reason why the cases were withdrawn against me.

MR HEWITT: No.  Were you advised that those incidents that you were charged for, were alleged to have taken place the same night as the meeting, namely September 1984?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Can you just repeat your question, you have your changed your question altogether, can you repeat it.

MR HEWITT: I am sorry, I can't understand your answers.

CHAIRPERSON: He is asking to repeat the question.

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Repeat the question, it is changed, it is not the first question that you have asked me.

MR HEWITT: You told us that you were charged on your return to the country, with two counts of attempted murder?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Is that correct?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: The one count of attempted murder related to a Ms Mchunu, correct?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Is the answer yes?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes, that is what I am saying.

MR HEWITT: The second count of attempted murder related to a Mr Khumalo, is that correct?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: All right, now I want you to listen carefully to this next question.  Were you told that the allegations against you was that you attempted to murder these two people on the same night as this meeting that you have given us evidence about, namely September 1984 when you were threatened at a meeting and you fired over their heads, and you ran away?
	Were you told that that same night, it was alleged you had attempted to murder Ms Mchunu and Mr Khumalo?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Really I don't understand.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Hewitt is wanting from you Mr Sithole, those two charges of attempted murder, was it alleged that the attempts to murder those two people, namely Mr Khumalo and Ms Mchunu, took place on the same night that you discharged the firearm at that meeting that you escaped from?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Told by whom?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?

MR HEWITT: I don't know what this answer is.

MR LAX: Sorry, maybe I can help here.  Just listen carefully.  Maybe we are confusing with lawyers' talk.

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes.

MR LAX: It is really very simple.  The night that you are alleged to have attempted to kill Ms Mchunu and Mr Khumalo, was that on the same night as you discharged your firearm?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes, on the same night.  The incident happened earlier and then the other two later.

MR HEWITT: All right.  Now the effect of your evidence today is that you say you believe that you have an indemnity or an amnesty for events that occurred later on that night, but not for events that occurred earlier on that night because you are applying for amnesty now for events that occurred the same night, but just a bit earlier on?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: In my application, in exile, I mentioned those two incidents.  This is why I believe that my indemnity was on the basis of the two incidents that I mentioned at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't mention the discharge of the firearm?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: No, because I didn't make, no one was injured, I didn't attempt to kill anyone in that, it was just the discharge of a firearm, and that is it.