Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-21

CHAIRPERSON: This is the first day of the Truth and Reconciliation's Amnesty Committee sitting, here in Durban.  This Committee will be sitting for the whole week to hear various applications.  The first applicant or applicants, there are two, will be Mr Thulani Percival Cele and Roy Bongumusa Cele.  Before we proceed, I would like to take this opportunity to introduce the members of the panel, starting with myself.  I am Judge Sisi Khampepe.  On my right hand side is Mr Wynand Malan, on my left hand side, Adv Chris de Jager, SC.  Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair, my name is Ms Thabile Thabethe, I am working for the TRC, I am the Evidence Leader, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anyone who is representing the applicants in these applications?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes Chairperson, I am Konki Molohlanye, I am representing the applicant in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molohlanye, are we in a position to commence?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Certainly Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You may do so.  Before you proceed Mr Molohlanye, have we advised the members of the public which channels to tune into to be able to follow these proceedings?  Zulu will be channel 3 and English will be channel 2.  Anyone who needs assistance, Joe will be there to give a hand.  Just show up your hand and he will come to your assistance.  Mr Molohlanye, you may proceed to call your first witness.

MR MOLOHLANYE: My first applicant is Mr Thulani Percival Cele.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cele, would you like to take an oath?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Please rise to take the oath.

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated, you have been sworn in.  You may proceed Mr Molohlanye.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Applicant, can you for the record, give us your full name?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Thulani Percival Cele.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thulani, I would like for you to start where the whole problem began.  I know you understand what you are here for and can you please lead the Committee or bring to the Committee what happened in your area?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molohlanye, are we to take it that the document before us that is headed "Affidavit", you intend to use and you would like to request that it be handed up to this Committee as an Exhibit?

MR MOLOHLANYE: I would like to apologise Chairperson.  I certainly would like this affidavit to be used as evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Let the record show then, that will be Exhibit A, that being the affidavit of Thulani Percival Cele.  Are you going to lead him on the affidavit, that is Exhibit A before us?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Can Mr Cele read English?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it not be better if you gave him a copy?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes, I will certainly do so, Chairperson.  You may proceed Mr Cele.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you just repeat the question that you put to Mr Cele?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Before you come to that, Mr Cele, may you briefly tell us how was your area during those years?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: The area in which I was residing, had been peaceful, but there were other neighbouring areas where there was political conflict, that is between the ANC and the IFP.  That is not including the area that I was residing in.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Mr Cele, then can you proceed to the affidavit and read all that is there.

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: With regards to the charges that I was convicted for?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes, I would like you to start as the Committee wishes to, that you start reading from the first paragraph.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't want him, Mr Molohlanye, to read.  You are here to conduct his application as a legal representative.  You know the requirements of the Act, you know the pertinent evidence he must lead before us in order to satisfy us, that he qualifies for amnesty.  We will read the affidavit as you proceed with your evidence.  Will you lead him in chief by putting questions.  We expect you to lead him in chief by putting questions to him, in that way he will give much more pointed evidence.

MR MALAN: Just before you proceed, may I just ask, Mr Cele, have you read the affidavit that you have signed?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: You know and understand what is in there?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: And do you again affirm it here to be true and correct?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: You can take it that this is before us and if you would lead him on the (indistinct), I will appreciate it.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thulani, which political affiliation were you in 1989?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: The ANC.

MR MOLOHLANYE: What position did you hold in the organisation, were you just a member or a leader?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I was a leader in my area.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Please tell us, were you elected or were you just nominated?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: We had discussed the matter, that is the residents of the area and the structure was formed and I was elected to lead that structure.

MR MOLOHLANYE: In this structure, who was also in the structure, were you alone?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: There were five of us.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Can you please give us the names of the other five members?

CHAIRPERSON: You may lead him on this.  You may actually read out their names and ask him if he confirms the people you stated belonged to the structure that he has referred to.

MR MOLOHLANYE: In the structure, the other members were Bongumusa, Thami Mthembu, Nhlanhleni Makhaya, is that right Mr - oh, I left out Bongani Khumalo.

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: That is true.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Can you please tell us why was this Committee formed?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: There were some events taking place although the political conflict had not as yet reached the area, but there were criminal activities taking place, people were robbed in the streets and people actually robbed houses.  The people responsible for these acts were the AmaSenora.   We then met and discussed this matter as ANC members and decided on electing marshals who would be responsible for safeguarding the area.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Please tell us, during that time as you said, there were no fighting in your area, so what was the main purpose of the structure which you formed as the members of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Unless you want him to state something differently, hasn't he just responded to the same question, the intention was to defend the community against the many criminal acts which were prevalent and committed by a gang called AmaSenora?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson, for that.   What else did you discuss in the meeting with the community?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: We discussed various issues for example developmental issues because there was a scarcity of resources as well as the fact that we needed people to defend the area because people were robbed of their possessions like TV sets which they would be robbed of during the night.  Therefore our intention of forming that structure, was to make sure that we defend that community.  Another factor is that our area had members from different organisations, but there was no friction amongst the members, therefore we also wanted to keep the peace in our area, we did not want to see a situation that was happening in other areas, the political fighting happening in our area as well.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Mr Cele, so you are saying that you formed the structure to guard the area.  Can you please tell the Committee what would have happened to a person found guilty of any offence or committing crime in your area?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: That person would appear and be convicted for that crime.

MR MOLOHLANYE: After the conviction ...

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose, that person would appear before your structure?