Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-25

MS FALATI: She, Mrs Mandela.

MR KUNY: Please continue.  I went to, I was still the SAPO, that is South African Prisoners Organisation for human rights, where I am working, was still at Hurrah House, so I went to the journalists, one of the journalists at Durrah House and told that particular journalist, there is an order that is being carried out, I am worried.  It is an ANC journalist.  The parents, those are the veterans of the ANC, I told that particular person, please there is somebody that is going to be wiped out and it is in your area, can you please go and intervene or tell that somebody because to me, our leader, whenever he feels like choosing anybody, he just wipes him out.  Three people are out to kill that particular person, that Leratodi Ikaneng.
 I think he thought I was just saying a fabrication.  In a weeks time, during that trial in 1992, in a weeks time after that, Leratodi was shot by the three.  The other two missed purposely.  This one said no, I am going to show you how to.   I am from the bush.  He shot Leratodi in the buttocks and the thigh and then Leratodi tried to scream and the mother came.  I understand from the version that I had, how he survived.

MR KUNY: Do you know anything that may assist the Commission regarding the murder of Dr Asvat?

MS FALATI: That was told by Jerry Richardson, that he made a re-call, and then Gogo during the time, I didn't come on the eve of the, that was the day before Dr Asvat was killed.  I came the following day, not knowing that Dr Asvat has died.
 I went there for something else, then I heard that Dr Asvat has died and before I was told by Gogo and Gogo said to me, you know the fight that was brewing here, I said the fights with Dr Asvat and Winnie Mandela, she said there was a big fight.  Apparently Dr Asvat was releasing a lot of information.
 There was a great fight between Dr Asvat and Mrs Mandela and now in the middle of the night, they heard that Dr Asvat has died.  During that time, Mrs Mandela came from the bedroom saying oh, are you here.  I said yes I am here.  Then I said I have heard from Gogo that Dr Asvat died, she said yes we are going to, let's go to the funeral.  We went to Dr Asvat's funeral.  I was there.
 After the funeral I was anxious to know how after burying their people, to they do the very same thing of giving people food and all that.  Instead Mrs Mandela drove, she didn't go to the house of Dr Asvat.  We drove back to Aubrey and the Football Club, drove back to the Diepkloof house.

CHAIRPERSON: I really must ask will you be able to move towards a conclusion?

MR KUNY: I have a few important aspects of her evidence to canvass, but I don't believe it will be too long, but there are some important aspects that I must canvass.
 Do you have any knowledge of an assault on Maxwell Matondo?

MS FALATI: Assault?  Yes, assault, because I was frequenting the office at Commerce House, at Mrs Mandela's place, I found Maxwell Madondo was sleeping right in the hot sun, summer midday.  He was sleeping in this position.
 When I asked him why he is sleeping in the sun, he couldn't answer, he just saluted me and then the other boys said he had been assaulted.  By whom, by Mama (indistinct)
 For what, no, he didn't go for the mission he was supposed to go for.  The mission was supposed to go to (indistinct) for (indistinct) that was the mission he was supposed to go to.  So at a later stage with Katiza Cebekhulu, when they were coming from Slelegele school, Katiza came to us, that was the days after.

MR KUNY: Who is Mama?  You said he was assaulted by Mama.

MS FALATI: Mrs Mandela.

MR KUNY: Do you have knowledge of the murder, any knowledge of the murder of Cookie Zwane?

MS FALATI: No, accept I was told by Jerry Richardson that she was killed on Winnie Mandela's orders.

MR KUNY: Is it correct that you accompanied John Morgan to a certain place where certain pointings-out were made?

MS FALATI: Yes.

MR KUNY: When was that more or less?

MS FALATI: That was just after the inauguration of the President.

MR KUNY: And who did you go with?

MS FALATI: With John Morgan and Paul Martin, the journalist from North South Production.

MR KUNY: What was the purpose of your trip on that occasion, your excursion?

MS FALATI: John Morgan had told me about the, he actually told me before about the people in the mine shaft and then I insisted, because I know John Morgan can tell you something and then after that, deny it.  He can tell you something and deny it, that is what John Morgan is.
 Actually alerts you, be careful there is danger there and after, if you don't take the heeding, then you must know that if he says that is danger, that is danger, but he is going to deny it when somebody asks about it.  So he told me about the mine shaft at an earlier stage.

MR KUNY: Where was this place, where was the mine shaft?

MS FALATI: I have the sketches of the mine shaft, whilst I was with her.  I was with Paul Martin.  I went with John Morgan to that place.  I insisted that I must go with somebody with a video camera because I know John Morgan, he tells you and then deny it.  So we went with Paul Martin, this journalist, he's got the video where John Morgan is revealing everything.
 That is the sketch, I had this paper.  This is a paper of the inauguration in my pocket, so I wrote the route from where we started right up to the place where the mine shaft is and he told me that there is a plantation.
 There was this plantation and there was a mine shaft and Lolo Sono, Shabalala, a certain guy from Zola, a guy who disappeared from Zola and Cookie Zwane, a certain young girl who was Zinzi's friend, he said that the grave was somewhere here, a shallow grave.  They did not put that one into the mine shaft, but he was buried somewhere just next to this.  But the other three and the other are right in that mine shaft.  And I would like the TRC to go with and extract those bodies.  That is the big job that still awaits the TRC, and to be reburied as human beings.

MR KUNY: Do you know was this excursion, this trip was it recorded on video camera as far as you are aware?

MS FALATI: Yes, by this person.

MR KUNY: And if I can perhaps just to wrap up, Ms Falati, a report was made by Mrs Mandela on the 2nd of October 1997, she released a document headed statement of Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela in which she makes certain allegations against you.
 She says that one George, whose full particulars are to me unknown, was brutally killed and his body dumped a distance away from Xoliswa Falati's house.  Shortly before his death George confided to one of the boys that Xoliswa Falati and her group wanted to kill him because they were accusing him of being an informer.  What is your comment to that allegation?

MS FALATI: My comment is that she, it is not for the first time ... (tape ends) ...
  ...[inaudible] to go to the press - that is the City Press, to make allegations accompanied  by Pumla - she Mrs Mandela, accompanied by Pumla to make those allegations.   And then Pumla came and told me that

<UNKNOWN>: "Hey, I was told I was in order to with one of Mrs Mandela's generals and make an allegation against you" and when that particular person was questioned - her general was questioned by the City Press, that particular person came to me and said

<UNKNOWN>: "You know, I nearly went to prison because Mrs Mandela wanted me to prison", she said I must go and fabricate stories about you.  
 When he was questioned he couldn't answer the question from the journalist because when you talk to the journalists you must have the questions and the facts, not just fabrications.

MR KUNY: Is there any truth in the allegation that ...[intervention]

MS FALATI: That is why I'm talking about the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Wait, wait, (no English translation) if you can manage that.

MS FALATI: Yes, thank you.