Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-13

MR DLAMINI: As I've mentioned, this car was driven by Mpashaza.  He was well-known in Mpumalanga.  He will drive this car anywhere he wanted because he knew that people were afraid of him.  That is what I know.

MR NGUBANE: Alright Mr Dlamini, I'll move on.  You said that you operated in the Maritzburg area known as Sinatingi for quite some time, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: When you were working there, did you hear some names of people that were targets of the Inkatha people, the UDF people that were the targets of the Inkatha people?

MR DLAMINI: Please repeat the question.

MR NGUBANE: Where you aware of certain people that were the targets of the Inkatha people there in Sinatingi?

MR DLAMINI: No, I do not know of anyone.

MR NGUBANE: The name Aaron Mabuza - I'm referring to this name because I'm instructed that there was an attack on his funeral at some stage - on the people from his funeral at some stage.  Do you know anything about that name?

MR DLAMINI: ...(no English translation)

MR NGUBANE: No, no, no, I'm not suggesting that it's you who attacked, I'm just asking you whether you know about the incident when the people from the funeral of Aaron Mabuza at Sinatingi were attacked by the Inkatha people?

MR DLAMINI: There were a lot of funeral processions that passed by the place where I guarded, so I would not know which was his.

MR NGUBANE: Well did you attack any people from the UDF or to the UDF funeral in Sinatingi, at any stage?

MR DLAMINI: As I mentioned earlier on, I did shoot some people who were proceeding to a funeral.

MR NGUBANE: Okay.  The - you operated in Mpumalanga until roundabout 1991, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Were you in this area of Mpumalanga when the police station was officially opened?

MR DLAMINI: No I was not here.

MR NGUBANE: Now the incident that took place in Malangeni cemetery where UDF people were slaughtered, do you know anything about that incident?

MR DLAMINI: No.

MR NGUBANE: Okay.   If the Committee can just bear with me.  Now this David Ntombela, is it correct that at one stage you were his guard - David Ntombela of Pietermaritzburg?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Did he order you to conduct certain operations at any stage?

MR DLAMINI: No.  I've never operated there, I went to guard the house.  I stayed there for two weeks and left the place.

MR NGUBANE: Now you have mentioned certain people that were involved in these acts which could either be described as political acts, or criminal acts.  What do you - do you - if ever they get charged, what is your attitude regarding giving evidence against them?

MR DLAMINI: Chairperson I would be greatly pleased if I could give evidence, because they should also explain as I've just done here, about things that happened.

MR NGUBANE: Are you co-operating with any structure in investigating criminal acts - in investigating criminal - with a view of laying criminal charges against these people at any stage?

MR DLAMINI: I could also help in that regard.

MR NGUBANE: No, no, my question is, at the moment are you involved with any structure that is investigating any of the criminal acts involving the people you have implicated?

MR DLAMINI: No.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chair I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane.  Mr Hewitt do you have any questions to the witness?

MR HEWITT: Yes I do Mr Chairman.  I wanted you to go back to the Woody Glen/Injubakazi incident, and I want to refer you to page 388 of your affidavit where you state at the end of paragraph 1, the first paragraph, that's in paragraph 30
"I was aware that Kay was a taxi war-lord from the area.  I had agreed to assist him on the basis that the instruction had come from Mudla Induna, my commander."
So is the position that Lethuli had told you to assist this taxi war-lord?

MR DLAMINI: Kay was a prominent IFP member.  Besides the fact that he owned taxi's, he was an IFP member, therefore his going to Mudla Induna was on the basis of that.  He went there to request assistance from Mudla Induna.

MR HEWITT: Yes, all I want you to do is to confirm that Lethal, also known as Mudla Induna, told you to assist this person whom you in your affidavit have described as a taxi war-lord.  Is that correct, yes or no?

MR DLAMINI: This name "war-lord", I do not agree with because when this incident happened, the taxi violence had not as yet started.

MR HEWITT: Alright, well whether you say now or not that you agree with the use of the word "war-lord", I want to ask you this question, and this question is this, I want you to listen to my definition of a taxi war-lord and I would like you to tell me whether you agree with my definition of a taxi war-lord.  Do you understand?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Right.  My definition of a taxi war-lord is a person who has - who owns taxi's or has an interest in taxi's, and it is his business to make money out of the running of taxi's.  Do you agree with my definition of that person so far?

MR DLAMINI: No I do not agree with you.

CHAIRPERSON: I think finish your definition because at the moment it would include every single person involved in the taxi business.

MR HEWITT: And such a person is called a taxi war-lord because he ruthlessly pursues that business, even to the point of having his competitors injured or killed, and also the people who use his competitors' taxi's.  That's why he's called a taxi war-lord.  Would you agree with that definition I've given you?

MR DLAMINI: I disagree with you.

MR HEWITT: Alright.  You told us that you don't like a description of this person any longer, as it appears in your affidavit that he was a taxi war-lord.  Would you tell us what you call a taxi war-lord?

MR DLAMINI: This word refers to the activities that we carried out that you actually pay people to kill other people.

MR HEWITT: Are you saying your definition of a taxi war-lord is a person who pays other people to have them killed - his opposition or opponents or enemies killed, is that your definition of a taxi war-lord?

MR DLAMINI: Yes that's how I would put it.

MR HEWITT: So in other words you, like myself, would define a taxi war-lord as a criminal, with slight differences on the description of that criminal, but he's a criminal who is prepared to murder.  We're agreed on that definition then are we?

MR DLAMINI: Yes that's correct.

MR HEWITT: Would you describe Kay, as you've done in your affidavit which you made under oath, would you disagree with the description that Kay was such a person?

MR DLAMINI: Chair, I do not agree that he was a taxi war-lord, because he was a taxi owner.  If I remember correctly, I do not remember him issuing a command that his opponents should be killed.  Even if it happened, I have never heard of it.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Hewitt, but Mr Dlamini, Mr Hewitt is asking you these questions because of what you have stated in your application, and if I may just read it again - this comes from your affidavit at page 388 of the papers, page 114 of your affidavit, and it's the last sentence of the first paragraph of paragraph 30 - and this is what you say, and you're talking about the time of the Woody Glen/Injubakazi incident, and you say"
"I was aware that Kay was a taxi war-lord from the area.  I had agreed to assist him on the basis that the instruction had come from Mudla Induna, my commander."
Now you say that you were at that time aware that he was a war-lord, that's what you say in your affidavit.  Now you say that you disagree with that because at the time of the Woody Glen incident, the taxi war hadn't started.  What exactly is the position, why then if that was the case, did you describe him in your affidavit as a taxi war-lord?