Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-20

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I think maybe I understood you the other way around because you said Eddie Khumalo was more on the side of De Villiers or Plein Street.  I said he was more on the side of Plein Street.  You said that maybe that he was further north of my position at (indistinct) I said yes.
So that's the impression I think maybe ... (intervention)

MR DORFLING: No I think sir you - I'm not sure whether you perhaps misunderstood but you indicated that he was more towards De Villiers Street, in other words more towards the side where the crowd ... (intervention)

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: No not was De Villiers, maybe I might have misunderstood you, he was more on the side of Plein Street.

MR DORFLING: In other words further away from the approaching crowd than you?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: And when you say you saw him firing, what exactly did you see.  Was he aiming at the crowd when he fired, or what exactly did you see?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I just saw him firing as to whether he was aiming at the crowd or where was he shooting but I just saw a person shooting.

MR DORFLING: Why don't you disclose that fact in your statement sir?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: In which statement?

MR DORFLING: In your application for amnesty and particularly paragraphs 17, 18, 19 and 20 of page 128.

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I think I might have omitted that one or I've overlooked it because I've already explained when I was presenting at the inquest.

MR DORFLING: You're saying you've either overlooked or omitted it.  Are you saying it was just an innocent mistake?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Sure it was an innocent mistake.

MR DORFLING: I'm putting it to you Mr Mangena that a fact of this nature must have been one of the uppermost features and facts in your mind and that you're not being truthful to say it was just an innocent mistake, you blatantly omitted it to mislead?

CHAIRPERSON: You understand, it's being suggested that you purposely did not mention it in order to mislead the committee.

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: No I don't think that was purposeful.

CHAIRPERSON: Do carry on.

MR DORFLING: I want to put it to you Mr Mangena that the objectors on whose behalf I appear will, if called to give evidence in front of this committee, testify that there was no justification for any of the ANC guards to shoot.

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I don't have a comment on that.

MR DORFLING: Do you disagree with that?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I have no comment on that.

MR DORFLING: I've got no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR HUMAN: I've got no questions.  Just for the record, my position for the objectors that I'm appearing on behalf of is the same as that of my colleague.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: There is none Mr Chairman, thank you.

MR LAX: Just one little question Mr Mangena.  When you were told to be deployed outside, were you told why you were being deployed outside.  What was the purpose you were told, why you were being deployed there?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I think in my statement I said that prior to instructions that I should go and deploy outside, there had been a briefing at the 7th floor where it was (indistinct) that there would be an IFP march and during the march the ANC offices will be attacked.

MR LAX: You understood that as an underlying issue in your mind when you were deployed?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you very much, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED