Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-14

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I think it is a very close distance estimated, I would say approximately 30 metres from the hall when it was activated.

CHAIRPERSON: But close?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, I have seen from Sgt Steenkamp's report that 83 windows in the hall were broken, so there must have been quite a lot of windows.  I don't know if he is talking panes or whatever, but there were definitely windows.  If you were so close, how can you not be sure whether the lights were on or off?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot remember that today.  I mean if somebody had asked me the question shortly after the incident, I might have been able to remember, but I really cannot remember today.

CHAIRPERSON: And going up to 30 metres, were you not placing yourself, was it you and Calla Botha?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Myself and Calla Botha and Isgak.

CHAIRPERSON: was it safe to do that?  Was it ...

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Chairperson, it was my first bomb explosion, I do not know, we did it whether it was safe or a little bit unsafe, we did it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Kahanovitz?

MR LAX: Sorry, but when the bomb went off, you weren't 30 metres from the building?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: We were still very close to the building.

MR LAX: But you said here you asked him to drive around the block?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes, but then the bomb didn't want to activate, so we returned to the premises and we moved closer to the premises in order to activate it.
	So at the time of the activation of the bomb, we were once again approximately 30 metres away from the building.

MR LAX: Okay, I wanted to clarify that, because it is not evident from certainly what is here, that that is what happened?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl, if I understand your version correctly, then Mr Hardien's main role on that night then is to really ensure that nobody from the Kewtown Youth is injured or killed, that is what he is really doing there?  He must go in, check who is there, he must leave and he must assure you at the time that everyone left the hall, that everyone has left the hall, so his real job is to make sure that no one from the Kewtown Youth is injured or harmed?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Amongst others, I mean he also took us to the hall the specific evening, and you must also remember that initially Isgak would have detonated the bomb himself, but later that afternoon, I decided  to be present personally.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but then having an additional person there, that is one more person that  can give evidence against you, correct, you don't take unnecessary risks?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And you didn't need to have Mr Hardien show you where the  Early Learning Centre was?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, he had to show me, because I did not know where it was.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He didn't need to take you there at that time, at the time of the bomb explosion, to show you where the hall was?  He or somebody could have shown you where the hall was at another time, do you agree?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Right.  So, at the time that you decided that  you didn't need him or you didn't want to use him any more to explode the bomb, you didn't need to take him with you to the hall?  He wasn't an essential component of the operation any more?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.  I mean if someone else had shown me where the hall was, I could have done it all myself, but I took him with me because after I had decided that I would personally activate the bomb, I used his services to send him into the hall, so that he could go and check if the hall was clean.  It was not something that I could have done myself, or Calla could have done.  He was the only person who knew exactly where the hall was.
	He still had a very important function to do that evening.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So essentially a good Samaritan?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I think this would be an appropriate time for tea?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will take the tea adjournment for 20 minutes, thank you.

MS COLERIDGE: All rise.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ABRAM VAN ZYL: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Kahanovitz?

MR KAHANOVITZ: (Cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairperson.   Now, I assume Mr van Zyl that you looked at the newspapers on the following day to see the results of your handiwork?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I don't think so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You weren't interested to see what the reaction had been in the press to what had happened?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.  I do know that there had been a report on the radio, I did not hear it myself, but I do  not know if it was in the newspapers in Johannesburg, at that stage I was back in Johannesburg.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, might I just hand in, hand up, some press clips.

CHAIRPERSON: We will skip "I" and we will make this Exhibit J.
PRESS CLIPS HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT J

CHAIRPERSON: Have you all got a copy of this one, newspaper clippings, Exhibit J.  Mr Kahanovitz?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Just for purposes of the record, the one article is from the Cape Times of 1 September 1989 and the second article is from The Argus of the same date.
	Mr van Zyl, you will see both of these articles highlight the fact that people were injured in the bomb blast, one article mentions two people and the other article mentions three people having been injured.  Now,  did it not come to your attention at the time that people had been injured in the bomb blast?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I did not see newspaper articles.  What was reported to me the evening at the airport, was that it had been on the news and that there were possible injuries.  That is all that I heard.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Weren't you interested to follow up?  I mean you had gone to all this trouble to make sure that no one was injured, weren't you interested to establish the true facts?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: You must remember that this was the 31st that the explosion had taken place, the 1st was basically my last cell meeting, and then I returned to the Cape and for all practical intends and purposes, I was on leave.  In time I did find out that there weren't any serious injuries and that one or two people were lightly injured.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And you were in fact cross-examined at the Harms Commission on the basis that people had been injured, do you recall?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That may be.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Zyl, was there no procedure in the CCB that after the conclusion of an operation, there would be some sort of formal report back to either the Regional Manager or the Managing Director?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Mr Chairperson, this is why I said in my statement that the following day, on the 1st of September, I wrote a report and I handed this written report to the Co-ordinator, but that report was only that the project had been executed as it had been approved.
	The calculator that was used to activate the bomb, I gave back to the Co-ordinator..

MR KAHANOVITZ: But surely Mr van Zyl, that report would inevitably deal with the question of whether anyone had been injured or harmed, particularly in consequence, in circumstances where Staal Burger had said to you "look, if someone is injured or killed, it falls within the mandate we have given to you".

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It was not about that, it was only about the execution of the project as it had been approved, in other words, the damage or the destruction of the hall.

MR KAHANOVITZ: When you made your report back, were your superiors not interested to know whether anyone was injured or killed?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I wouldn't say that they were not interested.  I do know that if I remember correctly, there had been a discussion of this, that two people had possibly been lightly injured.
	But an instruction wasn't given that we had to find out who the injured people were and what their condition was.  That was not done at all.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Right, but you do recall that you discussed it?