Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-29

MS VAN DER WALT: You also apply for amnesty for perjury and defeating the ends of justice?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: As well as any other unlawful deed which might emanate from there?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct, yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Hayes, why did you participate in these two events?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: During my time, in that short time that I was at Piet Retief at that stage, it was known to me and we did everything in our power to stop infiltrations of ANC members to the RSA, and at that moment I felt that the ANC was winning this war against the Security Forces and I saw it as part of my duties to stop them in any possible way.
	And the conventional methods which were prescribed by law was no longer successful and it was very difficult and I thought that we were approaching a war situation which was just about the same as it was in South West.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you also acted under instructions, is that correct?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That's correct, yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you receive any personal reward from these two events?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: Not at all.

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Prinsloo, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Hayes, your period of service in the police, before you arrived at Security Branch, did you know that this country was embroiled in a struggle against the ANC, who wanted to take the country over by violence?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And you were aware that politicians and several other high-placed officials had regularly at functions and where meetings were held, propagated that the ANC be stopped at all costs, wherever you might find them.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct, yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And where you were stationed, you were a handful of people in Piet Retief, as it has been put by  a previous witness, and that there was a high intensity of infiltrations and the onslaught on the country from out of Swaziland to Piet Retief and surroundings?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And you had to combat that onslaught?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct, yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius?

MR CORNELIUS: I have no questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens?

MR BOOYENS: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen?

MR JANSEN: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: Thank you, Chairperson, just a couple.
	Mr Hayes, your statement in bundle 5, the death inquest of the second incident, I note that according to the statement it's the 22nd of June, the statement was made on the 22nd of June.  Where were you stationed at that stage?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I was on an officer's course during the taken of that statement.

MR LAMEY: In Pretoria?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That's correct, yes.

MR LAMEY: Do you have a recollection how it happened that the statement was taken specifically?  Was it typed already when you signed it or how did it work?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: While I was there, Brig van Wyk spoke to me one evening and he had been to Piet Retief already after the investigation had handed over -  I did not know that the investigation had been handed over, and he brought the statement to me and I signed it.

MR LAMEY: Was it already typed?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct, yes.

MR LAMEY: When you signed it?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That's correct.

MR LAMEY: I see that Mr Flores and Mr Nortje and your statements were signed on the same day.  Do you know whether they were there?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I don't know.  They weren't with me, so I don't know where they were.

MR LAMEY: Another aspect.  In your statement you mention that the person - or that the left-hand front door had opened and a person with an AK47 had jumped out and started firing.  What do you mean by "he jumped out"?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: When I ran closer - because my instruction was to be on the far right wing of the vehicle to cover that area, in other words at the end of the day I ended up on the other lane on the other side, on the right-hand side, but because the vehicle was parked at a slant it took me longer to get to the vehicle and during that time the person, as I saw it, the door had opened and he had jumped out and shots were fired and I assume that he was firing on us from the kombi.

MR LAMEY: So it a deduction you had made?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Did you see him jump out and land with his feet on the ground or do you not know specifically?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I think so, yes.

MR LAMEY: Are you not certain?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I'm not certain.

MR LAMEY: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lamey.  Mr Moerane, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?  Sorry, we're just arranging an earphone.  Yes, Mr Moerane, when you're ready.

MR MOERANE: Thank you, Chairman.
	Mr Hayes, what you are telling this Honourable Committee is that you committed a murder on the 8th of June 1988.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I was part of a group who committed murder.  Although I did not fire shots, I associated myself with the act.

MR MOERANE: Yes, the intention was to murder these people.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: To kill them, yes.

MR MOERANE: And immediately after they had been shot, you realised that they had not been armed.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That's correct, yes.

MR MOERANE: And there was a discussion on the scene, in your presence, as to what steps should be taken now that these people were not armed.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: If I recall correctly, Mr Pienaar and Mr de Kock had discussions.  I did not physically hear what they said, but there was a discussion with regard to the absence of weapons.

MR MOERANE: Yes.  And you knew that a plan was going to made with regard to that matter.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That's correct, yes.

MR MOERANE: And the plan obviously was to plant weapons, that's firearms or a firearm and explosives, on these people.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is what happened ultimately.

MR MOERANE: And you were aware of that that very night.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: I did not see the physical plan because at a stage I withdrew with the light.  However, it was said to me that they had planted the weapons.

MR MOERANE: Yes.  Then four days later you took part in a similar ambush.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Which intention was to murder the people who would come.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: Once again we went out to kill them.

MR MOERANE: And you did murder them.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: Yes, they were shot dead.

MR MOERANE: Not only shot dead, but murdered.  In other words, unlawfully killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Unlawfully and intentionally killed.

MR MOERANE: That is so.  Is that correct?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: We acted against the laws of the country on that day.

MR MOERANE: Yes, at that time and even now.  Then you took part in a massive cover-up, not so?

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Which involved making false statements.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And this was done in conjunction and with the co-operation of the investigating officers.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Those being W/O Pienaar, to begin with, Brig van Wyk and Brig Engelbrecht, Krappies Engelbrecht.

JURIE BERNARDUS HAYES: That is correct.