Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-18

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: I said that this attack was two-folded.  Firstly, we wanted the money.  Secondly, the instruction that I gave was that "Let us kill everything that is alive in this supermarket".  I said this as a normal person, because I cannot take a gun and give it to a person and then expect him not to kill with that gun.  If I did not want the people to die, I wouldn't have given them the firearms.

MR STEENKAMP: So do I understand you correctly that your political objective was mainly a financial one, to get funds, is this the reason why you attacked the supermarket?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: That is one of the things that we wanted in that supermarket, we needed that money in order to carry forward our activities.

MR STEENKAMP: Did you receive any instructions from your commander or your commanders regarding the Wesselsbron, I mean the supermarket attack?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: I have already explained that after satisfying myself that this supermarket is a real target, I went back to Umtata, then I consulted with the Director of Operations, then he approved and he said that we can move forward with the operation.

MR STEENKAMP: Did he also approve the killing of the people inside the supermarket?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: War is about killing, there is no war wherein peoples do not die.

MR STEENKAMP: No Sir, I think the question is this, did you inform him that you're going to kill those people, or did he instruct you that you must kill those people, do you understand my question?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: I understand your question.  That is why I think that I've answered the question correctly.  Being the director of operation, you are not just a director of troops, troops that will just go and attack even the walls, he knew that the people will die, hence I say that I told the unit commander that everything that is alive there have to be dead.  That is what I'm saying now.

MR STEENKAMP: You see, something which I don't understand at all in your amnesty application, because none of this is included in your amnesty application, nowhere are you stating that the second objective of your group or of yourself was to kill people, you're only saying in your whole application it was to get money, that was your only objective, a financial one, nothing about to kill other people or that you were instructed implicitly or whatever.  Can you explain that to me?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: I will ask if the Committee could, or the honourable Advocate Steenkamp to read on that section that deals with the justifications, as to what the attack was all about in my application, the one that I've submitted to this Honourable Committee.  They should find out that indicated that the attack was about financial gain, because he's trying to create that impression.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, I don't know if you had an opportunity to read your own amnesty application before the hearing, but I will refer you just quickly to page 11, paragraph 10(e) of your application.  There you're saying the following
"The political objectives sought to be achieved  were those of financially maintaining APLA units through such means as applied in these cases in question."
And then, going to page 12, paragraph 11(b), where the question is if you received any orders or approval, there you say:-
"The instruction was that of mounting fund raising operations, as in the cases in question."
Nowhere are you indicating anywhere that one of the functions was also to kill the people in the shop, the white people, as it was indicated by the first applicant, nowhere is there any shape of information indicating this.  Why is that?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: I think now I understand your problem.  That is why I'm here today.  I'm here to add to what is already written there.  If it is not mentioned there that people should be killed, then I'm here to add what is not written on that application, that is my understanding why I'm here today.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, why did you not say it in your application, and you said it was there.  Is there any reason why you didn't mention it initially?  But before you answer that, Mr Steenkamp can you show us where you were reading from?  You referred to page 11 and page 12?

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, it's the new copy that was -I'm sorry for the confusion, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you like, Mr Khotle, to tell us why it wasn't in your application?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: If there is a reason, then that is what the English people say it's a human error.

MR STEENKAMP: Are there any other errors, Sir, before we take you through your application again, that you would like to comment on, or before we continue, is this the only thing you want to add, was there anything else?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: No.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, if the applicant can be given a copy of his application so that he may have a look at it?

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, it seems that the applicant's ready, maybe we can continue?  If I can continue, Mr Chairman?  Sir, I just want to read a sentence to you from a document in my possession, I will gladly make it available to you, I'm just going to read the sentence and I just want to hear what is your response.
"The whole system of apartheid was run by people who chose to separate themselves from the rest of humanity and called themselves white.  It is these people, therefore, who we had to tackle in the fight against the system."
	Is that correct, is that what your policy was?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: Attacking whites?

MR STEENKAMP: Yes, I'll read it again for you
"The whole system of apartheid was run by people who chose to separate themselves from the rest of humanity and called themselves white.  It is these people, therefore, who we had to tackle in the fight against the system."
Is this what the APLA policy was?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: It was one of them.

MR STEENKAMP: Is this correct?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: I'm saying so, yes, it is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: So in other words your fight was basically against white people?

CHAIRPERSON: We are not getting an interpretation here.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry, Mr Chairman, it was just a technical mistake.  Can we start again?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: What I was saying is that for that word "white" to be used or the word "black" in a document related to PAC, that was done for the sake of people like you, so that you can understand when we talk about the black and white, which people we are really talking about.  Our war was not a racial war, it was a war for freedom.  It is in your interest, it helps you to understand which people we are actually referring to, because people are afraid to say that they are Europeans.  The Africans are proud to call them Africans.  For example, in the United States of America, before you talk about Africa, you have to add for example you have to say Afro-American.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I don't think we need this long discussion.  If you would just answer the questions and stop and then he may ask more questions.

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: Okay, thank you very much.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	So are you saying that the attack on the supermarket in Wesselsbron was not primarily aimed against the white people, is that what you're saying, because that is why I'm asking you the question?

LERATO ABEL KHOTLE: The attack to this supermarket was an attack to the people who were oppressing, those who were oppressing the African people.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, my question is, I will gladly repeat it to you, the attack on the supermarket, the incident here, we're talking here about today, was it mainly planned to kill white people or not?  Do you understand the question?