Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-11

ERNEST RAMATALA: Well that one I don't know but I think all of us now, we were discussing about what can we use.

MR HUGO: Now if you say all of us, I take it you're referring to Mr Letsatse, on your version, Mr Mhieza, Mr Radebe and Mr Nobela, yourself and Shakes Malaleka, those were the ones who were in the Combi?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Exactly.

MR HUGO: Now, Mr Ramatala, who was going to pay for this car that was to be hired?

ERNEST RAMATALA: In my understanding I can pay for the car for the State myself.

MR HUGO: No, I'm not asking you to speculate, I'm asking you what was agreed as to who would pay for this car?

ERNEST RAMATALA: That one was beyond my reach really, I wouldn't know whose going to hire, whose going to provide.

MR HUGO: And what was discussed, where would they hire this car from?

ERNEST RAMATALA: That one I don't know.

MR HUGO: And was the idea that the car would be hired by the black members?

ERNEST RAMATALA: That one I don't know.

MR HUGO: You see Mr Letsatse says that he finds this absolutely amazing that the black would hire a car and Mr Letsatse says further that they didn't have credit cards or any other means to go and hire a car?

ERNEST RAMATALA: That's true but Mr Letsatse can facilitate that thing, acting between senior policeman whose going to fetch the car and give it to Letsatse.

MR HUGO: Well let me put it to you that Mr Malaleka who we are also acting for, it's Mr Willie Malaleka, he says that he can recall that a car was indeed hired but his recollection is that the car was hired by the Durban security police.  What would you say to that?

ERNEST RAMATALA: That is possible.

MR HUGO: But he says obviously that he wasn't part and parcel of the discussion or the decision, he just saw this car and heard later that it was hired by the security police in Durban.

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: Then you testified that you were given this car or the car was handed over to you by Mr Letsatse once it had been hired?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: Now Mr Letsatse once more says this is not so, he was never part and parcel of an operation where this particular car was handed over to you?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Oh, to Mr Letsatse who was driving the car?

MR HUGO: Well didn't you say that you drove the vehicle?
I mean there were three of you in this particular vehicle, it's you, it's Mr Nobela, Mr Malaleka and then later Mr Bhila was in the car?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes, what I'm trying to say that the car was hired, I was given the car by Mr Letsatse, I was the one who was driving the car.

MR HUGO: Yes.  I think you did say, I asked you about Mr Shakes Malaleka, he was a former member of the ANC, is that correct?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: He had intimate knowledge of the structures, would you say that?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: Or would you agree with that?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: Then you said in your evidence that you were told to go out of Durban, that was - those instructions were given to you by Mr Mhieza and Mr Letsatse, do you remember saying that?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: Now Mr Letsatse once more says that he wasn't involved in this, he never gave you those instructions.  Are you sure that he did and it was maybe not just Mr Mhieza?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Hundred percent sure.

MR HUGO: Now I just want to deal with a so-called interception.  So you were then travelling in this Honda vehicle and if I understand your evidence correctly, you were then approached by two Combis, is that correct?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: Now how many occupants were there in these Combis?

ERNEST RAMATALA: It's very difficult for me to know the number.

MR HUGO: Yes was Mr Radebe in this Combi or in one of the Combis?

ERNEST RAMATALA: One thing sure he was having one of the Combis and Letsatse was driving one other one.

MR HUGO: And Mr Malaleka, Mr Willie Malaleka?

ERNEST RAMATALA: He must be in one of them.

MR HUGO: No, no, not must be, was he?

ERNEST RAMATALA: In the Combis?

MR HUGO: Yes.

ERNEST RAMATALA: Well, he was supposed to be there.

MR HUGO: No, no, that's not good enough Mr Ramatala, you must tell us, to the best of your knowledge and recollection, was Mr Malaleka in one of the Combis and it's important, I'll tell you now why.

ERNEST RAMATALA: Okay.  Not knowing if maybe something happened on the way but they were in the Combis from C.R. Swart when we are about to go to that place so I don't know if maybe somewhere on the way, they dropped one or two.

MR HUGO: Well let me put it to you why I'm saying it's important, Mr Malaleka's version, Mr Willie Malaleka's version is that he was in a Combi and he just kept observation at Kentucky Fried Chicken building when Mr Bhila got into your car and after that he departed from the scene and he went back to C.R. Swart.  What do you say to that?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Using what?

MR HUGO: A Combi.

ERNEST RAMATALA: As far as I remember when they stopped us, two Combis were there.

MR HUGO: Well you seem to be a bit unsure now, is it possible that Mr Malaleka could be right on this score?

ERNEST RAMATALA: That's possible.

MR HUGO: So if we said that then it's possible that there was only one Combi during the interception, is that not so?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Two combis.

MR HUGO: No but you've just conceded that it's possible that there was just one Combi or that the other Combi could have gone to - back to C.R. Swart?

ERNEST RAMATALA: When, after?

MR MALAN: I don't think that's a reasonable deduction, I think what is reasonable to say that there might have been a third Combi?

MR HUGO: Well Mr Ramatala, were there three Combis used by the group at that time?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Two.

MR HUGO: Then you said that ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: How many Combis or where did you see the Combis at C.R. Swart?

ERNEST RAMATALA: We came down from Pretoria to C.R. Swart with two Combis.

CHAIRPERSON: You had two Combis?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Two Combis, I know the drivers of those two Combis.

CHAIRPERSON: But did C.R. Swarts not possibly have a Combi?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Possible they might have one Combi.

MR HUGO: Mr Ramatala, you then also testified and if I - you must please correct me if I understood you wrongly, but it was prearranged that the Combi, your vehicle would be stopped and then that you would be assaulted and slapped around, is that the gist of what you wanted to say?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Assault not to cause injuries but to make as if there is a fight, to convince - even the gentleman he must not know what is happening.

MR HUGO: Yes but who arranged this, who told you beforehand that this was going to happen to you?

ERNEST RAMATALA: We used to do such a thing.

MR HUGO: No, but you see that's something else, Mr Ramatala, can you remember who arranged this beforehand, who told you, who was instrumental in arranging for this act?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Oh I don't remember the particular person arranging but I mean a name but there was a saying that "gentlemen we will stop you and we will be a little bit rough".

MR HUGO: And were any of the black members, did they partake in roughing you up?

ERNEST RAMATALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: Which ones?

ERNEST RAMATALA: I cannot remember because ...[indistinct] I was trying to run to other Combi.

MR HUGO: And did any of the white members from Vlakplaas partake in this particular act?

ERNEST RAMATALA: I didn't see them.

MR HUGO: And what do you say, Mr McCarter testified that he was there during this interception and he was responsible for Mr Bhila being taken into the Combi and McCarter away to the shooting range.  What do you say about that?

ERNEST RAMATALA: I deny that thing.

MR HUGO: Now you also alluded in your evidence in chief to the registration number of this vehicle that was changed, the number plates.  When did or when were these number plates changed, can you remember?