Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-03

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Good.  Now in 1991, were you still a commander of that unit in the country?

SHAKESPEARE THAMI BUTHELEZI: Yes that is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And it is that unit which you commanded which would have been responsible for an operation of this nature, am I correct?  As a commander?

SHAKESPEARE THAMI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And Mabena was not in a position of giving you orders as a commander at that time, is that correct?

SHAKESPEARE THAMI BUTHELEZI: That is correct but could I clarify a certain issue?  Mabena had the discretion to issue an order, for instance if I was not present at the time and the unit had to do something or carry out an important operation, he could do that if he was not present.  I do not want to confine myself to the fact that he could not.  In this specific case he could have issued out an order and at the end of the day he could not be held responsible for having issued out this order because probably there wasn't anyone at that time to issue an order of that kind.  I met Mabena in prison, I would like to clarify this to the Committee that our struggle, especially during the 1990's, escalated so much so that people never got a chance to be actively involved in politics or to be educated or be given a proper brief with regard to the struggle or the politics of the country.  As a result, as Mr Mabena has already testified as a member of the PAC, he is recognised by the PAC and I would request him to be granted amnesty because he participated in the struggle of the country irrespective of the nature of the participation, but what he did, he did it as a hero who was concerned about the wellbeing of the entire African nation, that's why he decided to repossess from the oppressors.  I think that's all I'm going to say for now.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If Mabena had given out an instruction in your absence he would report to you as a commander, not so?

SHAKESPEARE THAMI BUTHELEZI: Yes he had to report to me but within the same breath, I was not very much available due to the fact that the police were hunting me down at that stage so I was not easily available or easily accessible to him to report to me.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: My question was so simple, he would report to you as a commander, that's all?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, just on this, my understanding on my Malefane's evidence, was that Mr Mabena didn't give him any order or instruction, I mean they met at a party and he mentioned that they needed money to train a task force in a discussion and then the applicant said then thereafter, he took it upon himself, he decided himself to go and get money for Mabena, it wasn't that Mabena said okay you're a member of PAC, you are instructed to go and get money?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is perfectly correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So there's not a question of having to come back and inform his commander about an instruction that he issued in his absence because it wasn't an instruction.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is perfectly correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Unless Mr Chair wants me to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So I don't know why we're going on about this instruction?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Unless Mr Chair wants me to clarify why I'm following this line?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no certainly if you can.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It is correct so, Mr Chairman, Mabena did not give him any instruction.  The thrust of my questioning of this witness in this line is to show that there was no political coverage of this whole operation.  The purpose of Malefane mentioning Mabena is to cloud the operation with the PAC operation so I'm removing all that by putting this question.  But the Chair is saying is perfectly correct.  Thank you Mr Chairman, that's all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Do you have any re-examination Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions to ask the witness?
ADV. BOSMAN: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Buthelezi, where were you operating at the time ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.
ADV. BOSMAN: Sorry.  Where were you operating, which area were you operating at the time when you were commander and Mr Mabena was logistics officer?

SHAKESPEARE THAMI BUTHELEZI: We were in Kathlehong.
ADV. BOSMAN: And what did Mr Mabena's duty entail as a logistics officer?

SHAKESPEARE THAMI BUTHELEZI: ...(indistinct)
ADV. BOSMAN: I'm not getting any translation.

CHAIRPERSON: There is not translation coming through?

INTERPRETER: Sorry we were on 3.  Can I get the witness to repeat the answer?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Buthelezi, the interpretation hasn't come through could you just please repeat your answer?  The question was what were Mr Mabena's duties?

SHAKESPEARE THAMI BUTHELEZI: Mr Mabena's duties were to organise for the unit, for instance if we were short of ammunition had to organise.  At times we were in need of money, he had to organise some funds for the unit.  I think his specific duty was to organise for the unit.
ADV. BOSMAN: So how do we make the Transkei task force connection from this, can you help us?

SHAKESPEARE THAMI BUTHELEZI: I do not know, I think if he did not die he would have answered that himself.
ADV. BOSMAN: Did he ever go to the Transkei while he was logistics officer?

SHAKESPEARE THAMI BUTHELEZI: As I've already explained, at that time I was on the run, I lost touch with whatever was happening within the unit.
ADV. BOSMAN: But do you know of any time that he went to the
Transkei, did he report it to you?

SHAKESPEARE THAMI BUTHELEZI: No I've absolutely no idea about him going to the Transkei because when we parted we did not part under normal circumstances, I was on the run until such time that I heard about his death and I attended his funeral.
ADV. BOSMAN: Thank you.  Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Advocate Motata, do you have any questions to ask the witness?
ADV. MOTATA: I've got none, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions arising?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No questions Mr Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Buthelezi, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just the evidence for the applicant, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.  Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I'm not leading any evidence of any person effected in the form of a victim but in all fairness to the applicant Mr Chairperson, I want the Committee's guidance here.  I made certain accessions to the applicant under cross-examination concerning the guns, where the guns were found, who made available the guns and I said to him it was - he said it was David Nene and I said if somebody say it was somebody else what would you say, he said it would be not true.  I made another accession in all fairness to him about the money or members knowing that the money was going to be given to a particular person and he also, not in so many words, disputed that.  I do have witnesses to this effect if the Committee would like to hear them I can call them if the Committee accepts the accessions that I've made I can leave it at that and not call any witness, but they are available because I would be calling them for only for this purpose which may not be in the liking of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have anything to say on that Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I think Mr Chairperson the purpose of this exercise of coming here is to hear the truth of everything so I have no objection definitely, if the Committee wants that particular person to give evidence, I have no problem with that.  All of us who are searching for the truth and know what actually what actually happened.