Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-14

MR DORFLING: You were asked to demonstrate in front of the Inquest Court in what fashion you pointed your firearm. Would you care for purposes of clarity for the Committee again to indicate Sir how your firearm was pointed?

MODISE MOLEFE: I said like in this fashion.

MR DORFLING: I am going to try and put some detail to that. Would you say roughly at an angle of 45 degrees to the sky or upwards in other words?

MODISE MOLEFE: Mr Dorfling all what I said to which Justice Nugent in terms of the degrees I am quite illiterate. I just made signs and now you take your own decision and whatever decision that you took I appreciated it.

CHAIRPERSON: You mean instead of making speeches please. Did you point your gun upwards and you were asked how. Can you demonstrate with your hand how?

MODISE MOLEFE: Your Lordship I am doing this for the second time. I said this.

CHAIRPERSON: Well is that satisfactory.

MR DORFLING: Yes Mr Chairman if we could perhaps just give an angle to that I think it is of assistance for the record.

CHAIRPERSON: Well he was pointing upwards.

MR DORFLING: I do not know whether I could put the words steeply upwards"?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think it is necessary because the position doesn't (...indistinct) him frozen in that you know there is a movement around. So I don't think one must go around freezing a situation really.

MR DORFLING: As the Committee pleases. Now Mr Molefe it was only after you pulled Veli Llale down that you started firing. Is that correct?

MODISE MOLEFE: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: Now I would like to refer you to the ballistic evidence that was presented at the time of the inquest proceedings and I would like to specifically show you photographs that was contained in a bundle that was marked at the time Exhibit Y2 in bundle 2 volume 5 and I want to specifically refer you to photographs number 10, 14 and 15 in this bundle. Perhaps we should just concentrate on photos 14 and 15. Could you have a look at the bundle I am showing you now? If you turn the page for photograph 15. Now Mr Molefe the ballistics experts in the Inquest Court was of the view and it was a joint report by all the interested parties, they were of the view that the shots that hit the Woburn Chemist as depicted in photographs 14 and 15 of that inquest record I have shown to you came from the north western corner of the parapet at the corners of King George and de Villiers Street in other words and it hit the Woburn Chemist at an angle from the height of the parapet going downwards towards the chemist. Do you accept that?
English male: Chairperson just to be accurate again. The ballistic evidence relating to the shots that were fired into the Woburn Pharmacy was the evidence only of Mr du Plessis, the expert on behalf of the police. The reason for that is that you would now have seen the pharmacy has moved from the corner to the third shop in King George Street. So that at the time that the joint ballistic report was undertaken the two other experts, the one on behalf of the IFP and the one on behalf of the ANC were not able to check the accuracy of the conclusions drawn by Mr du Plessis. That they were not able to see the shots that were actually fired into the Woburn Pharmacy because it had been moved and the glass had been replaced. We don't dispute those findings but it is incorrect to say that those parts of the findings are the findings of three experts. The other two experts could not agree.

CHAIRPERSON: So we can say that, that was the evidence of one witness.
English male: Which evidence is not disputed. Correct yes?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chairman if I may perhaps just clarify. The latter two expert witnesses at the time of the drafting of the joint report didn't have the benefit of doing an actual scene visit and seeing the actual damage. They had to rely on the photographs that was available, that was taken at the time of the shooting incident, which is the photographs I have shown the witness now and on the basis of that a joint report was compiled. And the fact of the shots having emanated from that corner and having hit the pharmacy at that angle was never put in dispute.

CHAIRPERSON: You have shown the witness the photograph which shows the damage to the window of the pharmacy and I want to try and write down the question you put to this witness. I have not succeeded in doing that. Will you please put your question?

MR DORFLING: I think the last question the witness responded in the affirmative that he accepts that ballistic evidence. Now the question that arises from that; if you were positioned as you say you were positioned Mr Molefe at the time when you fired the shots at an upward angle it would have been impossible for you to hit the pharmacy window and the pillar at the pharmacy at the angle depicted in the photographs as confirmed by the ballistic evidence. Would you care to respond to that?

MODISE MOLEFE: Mr Dorfling I am putting this for a second time. I said when I was asked that question by the advocate of the police I totally disbelieved him. My legal representative as they came with the ballistic evidence and show me this is what happened and even the verdict of His Honourable Justice Nugent that I might have lost my feet and two of my shots went to the direction of the marchers. I concede to that Mr.

MR LAX: Sorry you are not being asked to concede or not concede. You have been asked to give an explanation. Can you give an explanation or can't you? It is really quite simple. If you can't then say you can't. If you can then let's have your explanation. But we are not interested in what you told the judge before and what the judge found and so on. Just give us a simple answer please?

CHAIRPERSON: What do you think happened? That is all. Is there any recollection of what happened or have you no recollection of what happened about how the fire from your gun struck the window of the pharmacy?

MODISE MOLEFE: Frankly I cannot recall, frankly.

CHAIRPERSON: You cannot recall how it happened?

MODISE MOLEFE: I cannot recall.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Mr Dorfling would you just repeat your question? Was your question that if the witness was standing, was in the position which he described in his evidence it would have been impossible for him to have hit what the ballistic suggests, was hit by his fire? Is that what you put to him?

MR DORFLING: That is indeed the question. In other words given ...(inaudible)]

JUDGE NGCOBO: Okay. Did you hear what I have just said to Mr Dorfling?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes Your Honour.

JUDGE NGCOBO: What is your response then?

MODISE MOLEFE: The picture that I have in my mind I do not remember firing to any direction except in the air. This is the picture that I still have in my mind even today. I don't remember directing the fire.

MR DORFLING: One thing we know for certain Mr Molefe on your evidence you didn't fire until such time as you have reached the lower level of the parapet, the indent in other words. Is that correct?

MODISE MOLEFE: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: Are you absolutely certain about that fact?

MODISE MOLEFE: As far as I remember I fired in the air.

MR DORFLING: No please listen to the question and just try and respond and give me an answer on the question I am posing to you. I am asking whether you are certain of the fact that you didn't fire any shots with your firearm, with your AK47 until such time as you and Veli Llale reached the lower level, the indent of the parapet?

MODISE MOLEFE: That is correct.