Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-19

MOSES VELI LLALE: My response was the pistols I saw were not more than five. That was my response. I am still saying it now that my response is there were not more than five that I saw.

MR DORFLING: So you saw amongst the marchers coming down de Villiers Street you saw some marchers carrying pistols but no more than five? It could be up to five? Have I got that right?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Did you see anyone or more of the marchers firing any shots with these firearms? I am not talking of the AK47. I am talking about other firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: The question once again is did you see them and not whether you heard them?

MR DORFLING: Indeed Mr Chair, see them firing.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MOSES VELI LLALE: No.

MR DORFLING: Did you hear any other shots from firearms emanating from the crowd apart from what you perceived to be shots from the AK47?

MOSES VELI LLALE: When the shooting was going on I remember seeing two marchers with pistols. In my mind I didn't know whether they were shooting or they were just holding them. But there was just gun fire at that time.

MR DORFLING: I just want to make sure that I have your answer correctly. In your mind as you perceived things and as you recall it today you did not see anybody firing any shots on that day in that time span? I am talking about see Mr Llale not what you heard, the shots that you heard. I am talking specifically see.

MOSES VELI LLALE: When you exclude Jakwe, yes.

MR DORFLING: Now would you please turn to page 3698 of the record? 3698 Mr Chair. Maybe we should just to put it in the right perspective start from roughly line 9 of that page. This is where you are positioned at the wall of the parapet together with Mr Jakwe Molefe.

MR DORFLING: "Which wall is this one. Is it the wall of the parapet itself?

WITNESS: My Lord one bullet hit the wall of the parapet and the other one the wall behind us. Behind me and I could see dust coming out as a result of that. Jakwe was armed with an AK47. As I was lying on the ground I could hear gun fire emanating from Jakwe's AK47 and I went, rather I rushed to the opposite direction, the opposite corner within a distance of from here up to the wall across there.

MR DORFLING: 		It was a deafening sound that emanated from this AK47 by Jakwe and you could hear other shots going off from the ground?

WITNESS: I could hear further shots emanating from the ground and I think Steve ran past me and I was lying down on the floor there or on the ground and as I was lying there I thought that the person who was shooting at us he and the others are now attacking the personnel down stairs. I got up to investigate why there was this lot of gun fire going on. As I looked over I could see a lot of marchers running now towards Plein Street in King George but they were still in King George heading for Plein Street. And I could see that man, the man who was in the midst of the crowd and armed with an AK47 running on the side of the pavement next to the chemist across the road.'

MR DORFLING: And now the important part.

MR DORFLING: "I was confused at that stage and I could see the marchers armed with pistols and shooting towards Plein Street and I immediately got other information that they were shooting at our people but I was mostly concerned and concentrating on the man with the AK47."

MR DORFLING: You make it quite clear Mr Llale in this portion of the evidence that "I could see the marchers armed with pistols and shooting towards Plein Street." That was your evidence at the inquest in this portion of the record. Is that incorrect? You said you did not see anybody shoot. Here it is quite clear that you did see people shoot. Did you or didn't you?

MOSES VELI LLALE: This is what I tried to explain earlier on. I knew that you were coming to this. When I stood up it is written here that I was confused. I was confused at that stage and I could see - how do you take something of a person who is confused at that stage. Hence I am saying there was gun fire down there I might have thought these people also were shooting. As I am saying I was confused. I was not definite. As I was saying I was confused. If there was no confusion in this that means I was definite but in this instance I was confused. I don't know whether is my explanation or whether I am running away. But I am saying at that stage I was confused.

MR DORFLING: I want to refer you to another portion of your evidence where you clearly stated that you saw people firing shots amongst the marchers. Can I refer you to page 3723 Sir from line 22 onwards. At line 22 you say
"Now you furthermore today in your evidence said that after you saw this person with the AK47 on the pavement across the road you then saw marchers with pistols firing at the guards but you mostly concentrated on this person with the AK47."
Do you recall giving that evidence?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Then it proceeds

MR DORFLING: "Now how many people with sidearms did you see firing at the guards?

WITNESS: Not more than 2 although I could not be a hundred percent sure of the number.

MR DORFLING: 		And are you saying today that you actually saw them pointing their firearms at ANC security guards and firing at them?

WITNESS: Yes."

MR DORFLING: That is in direct conflict with the evidence you give today Sir.

MOSES VELI LLALE: I don't think it is really. I mean let me say it in zulu. I do not believe that I told a lie but what I am saying to you at this moment is there was a lot of gun fire emanating from the ground. And if you see a person having a pistol or firearm in his hand in your mind you tell yourself that this is the person who is shooting. Because your concentration is somehow divided. You are looking at this person who is having a firearm and there is gun fire going on all at the same time.

MR DORFLING: You see Mr Llale if we may revert back to page 3723 the last line on that page, line 30. It was quite clear that the question that was posed to you was posed to you in such a way that not only the proposition of the marchers pointing the firearms was put to you but also the fact that you actually saw them firing. It says the following
"And are you saying today that you actually saw them pointing their firearms at ANC security guards and firing at them?"
You didn't respond by saying it was pointed but I just (...indistinct)

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman I want to pose a question. Are these questions asked on the basis that one can see a bullet leaving a pistol? Because if that is what is expected of the witness then the questions may make some sense. If not I submit that the witness is being badgered unnecessarily. Thank you Mr Chair.

MR DORFLING: With the greatest respect Mr Chair the whole line of questioning was aimed at obtaining from this witness an answer as to whether he saw shots being fired from the marchers, from members amongst the marchers. And he specifically responded by answering no. That was his choice to say no I did not see that. He didn't offer the explanation that what I tried to convey to Mr Justice Nugent was that there might have been shots or that, that might have been a perception. He now today offers that explanation. I am putting to the witness that what is quite clear from the evidence in front of Mr Justice Nugent is that he not only contradicts this evidence but I will get to the other portions in the record where he contradicts himself at the time of the inquest.