Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1999-05-26

JOHN SERAME GULU: It is because he was a member of the Eagles gang which was not arrested by members of the SAP. They were not arrested even if they did criminal activities within the township.

MR MOHLABA: Did you, at that moment, view this gangster as a stumbling block towards the achievements of your organisation?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, that is correct. At the time, I saw this gang as an obstacle and then I saw them as the enemy of the ANC.

MR MOHLABA: Other than being a member or supporter of the ANC, did you do any other duties for your political organisation, for the ANC?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I used to help ANC when they were organising rallies.

MR MOHLABA: Can you expand and explain the nature of your assistance there? The role you were playing.

JOHN SERAME GULU: When they were going to organise the rallies, the marshals would go there to arrange the venue and the chairs. Therefore I would go and help in the arranging of the venue, when they were going to have a rally there.

MR MOHLABA: So you are telling this Committee that the knife which was used to stab the deceased was obtained from somebody who was in the company of the deceased. Is that correct?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, that is correct. That is correct. I took it from the member of this Eagles gang.

MR MOHLABA: Is it true that in your criminal trial there were certain witnesses who mentioned that the knife was, was possessed by either you or your brother? Can you still remember that having been testified?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I remember that there were witnesses who  testified that the knife which was used to kill the deceased was from me or was requested by my brother from me.

MR MOHLABA: So, the person who stabbed the deceased was in fact yourself and not any other person.

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, that is correct, sir. I am the one responsible for the stabbing of the deceased, nobody else.

MR MOHLABA: And in killing the deceased as you did, is it your submission that it was, you were in furtherance of the interests of the political organisation in eliminating, by eliminating your opponent?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOHLABA: Now that the deceased has died and that you have been convicted and served a prison term in respect of his death, do you have anything to mention to the Committee, or to the family of the victim, in support of your application?

JOHN SERAME GULU: What I would like to say to the family, before this Committee, is that I ask for forgiveness for what I have done.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chairperson. That will conclude the evidence in chief.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Mohlaba. Adv Steenkamp, any questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, yes, if you would allow me a few questions, thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, just for the record purposes, the deceased in this matter's full names is Phinneas with two n's, and his second name was Thapelo Montso. At the time of the incident he was 18 years old. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	So can you just indicate, or can you just tell us, who exactly was with you at this incident? Who was participating with you in this incident?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Nobody took part, except myself as I have already testified earlier that I was the one responsible for the stabbing of the deceased, because I was together with my brother. Then he was also charged for this murder.

ADV STEENKAMP: I am also right in saying he was also convicted, or am I wrong?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, that is correct, he was convicted.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you tell us, what was his role when the deceased were killed? What exactly did he do? What was his part?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Is to fight only, but not to stab.

ADV STEENKAMP: What did he do to the deceased? Did he hit him, did he - what did he do? Did he assault him, what did he do?

JOHN SERAME GULU: The deceased fought him and then my brother fought back.

ADV STEENKAMP: And what did you do? Did you also assault or what did you do to the deceased, except by stabbing him?

JOHN SERAME GULU: At the time when they were trying to fight, I was fighting his friends.

ADV STEENKAMP: So, if I - please help me if I am wrong, if I do understand you correctly, you were saying that the only thing you did, you stabbed the deceased. That's all you did.

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, that is correct. Yes, I stabbed him.

ADV STEENKAMP: I would like to put it to you, if you look through the court record and numerous statements that's before the Amnesty Committee, currently in the bundle, contained in the bundle, if I'm not mistaken the Court found that you were also part and parcel of the group assaulting the deceased just before you killed him. Do you have any comment to that?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Are you saying I was part to the group which assaulted the deceased before I stabbed him?

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes, that's correct.

JOHN SERAME GULU: May you please repeat your question, sir?

ADV STEENKAMP: The question is quite easy, sir. My question is just before you assaulted, or before you stabbed the deceased, did you assault him? You personally. By hitting him or whatever?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I did not assault him at all. I only stabbed him.

ADV STEENKAMP: So if these witnesses are saying that they saw three black men assaulting the deceased and one of them stabbing him, they were wrong.

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, that is correct, they are lying.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I would just like to, before I ask the next question, just refer you to a statement that was made by a Mr John, it looks like Mfani. The statement appears on page 60, sorry, pardon me, 76 to 77. Sir, if you can maybe have a look at page 77, you see there's a statement in Afrikaans by this person saying that he was also under the impression that you were under the influence of liquor, all three of you. Do you have any comment on that? This is now at the time of the incident.

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I do.

ADV STEENKAMP: Were you under the influence of liquor, sir, were you drunk?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I was not drunk.

ADV STEENKAMP: If I can ask you this, the deceased, was he armed? Was he in possession of a knife, or firearm, or anything like that?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, that is correct, he had a gun.

ADV STEENKAMP: If I may ask you then, why didn't you testify this or even mention this in your amnesty application when you had the opportunity to do so?

JOHN SERAME GULU: As I did not include it before when, during my consultations because they refuted that statement he had a gun and because that statement did not appear in court, that is why I did not mention this to my lawyer.

ADV STEENKAMP: Please help me if I am wrong, sir, but my impression from the Court record is, its only my impression, that your defence was one of, at the Court, at the hearing, was one of self-defence. Am I right or am I wrong?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, that is correct. When I was in Court I pleaded self-defence.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you tell us why you did that?

JOHN SERAME GULU: It is because they did not want me to submit the statement which I made. They said I was lying.

ADV STEENKAMP: Isn't it, isn't it also correct, sir, that you told the Supreme Court that the deceased actually attacked you, because he was armed with a firearm, isn't that what happened?

JOHN SERAME GULU: They disputed that evidence.

ADV STEENKAMP: But you told the Supreme Court that. That was your version. You acted in self-defence, because at the time you were attacked by the deceased. Am I right?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I did, but they disputed that evidence or that statement.

ADV STEENKAMP: So am I right in saying you lied to the Supreme Court?

JOHN SERAME GULU: About what?

ADV STEENKAMP: The whole issue of self-defence. I mean that was a lie. The deceased never attacked you.

JOHN SERAME GULU: It's not - I was not lying.

ADV STEENKAMP: So were you then attacked by the deceased with a firearm?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes.