Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-12

GINOTRY DANSTER: We took all the answers and gave them to Mr du Plessis.  After he arrived in Jeffrey's Bay he said these were not the answers, this is not the information that he'd wanted.

MR ROUX: Before we continue, just tell the Commission, where was Mr Kondile held and where were the questions asked?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He was in the office that was emptied for us to use.

MR ROUX: If he wasn't asked, where was he detained?

GINOTRY DANSTER: In the cell.

MR ROUX: Now, you testified that Mr du Plessis wasn't satisfied with the answers, what was his reaction?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Captain du Plessis arrived with his colleagues.

MR ROUX: Yes?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He said: "When you are investigating a terrorist, this is how you go about it, you have got to get the truth".  He then showed us the way you retrieve information from a terrorist.  Sizwe was tied at the knees.  He said I must handcuff him from the back.  We then made him lie on the floor and we put a sack on him - we refer to it as: "the prisoner's bag".

JUDGE PILLAY: What did you describe the bag as?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Prisoner's bag - Prisoner's property bag. We put this over his head and you have to put this on very tightly so that he can't breach and then at the same time there was a small machine ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the speaker.

GINOTRY DANSTER: This machine has a crank handle with two wires.  When you use this crank handle it's very painful to the victim.  That is how information was retrieved from a prisoner.  Every time we saw that he's suffocating we took the bag off his head and then he'd be asked questions.

MR ROUX: Sorry, if I can interrupt you there.  You described now to the Commission, the prisoner bag and you described the machine with the crank handle, was this now what was used by Mr du Plessis to show you how to get information out of or how to get the truth out of somebody?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

MR ROUX: Was Mr du Plessis alone there while he showed you this?

GINOTRY DANSTER: It was himself, Raath and myself.  Gideon Niewoudt and Roelofse were there, also Buzani.

JUDGE PILLAY: Well, before we get to that, just explain to me what role does this electrical box play, this cranking business, how was that used?

GINOTRY DANSTER: This machine when used, is very, very painful, you will give us any information that we want from you because of the pain.

CHAIRPERSON: How does it give the pain?  What does the machine do?

GINOTRY DANSTER: It shocks you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the word choke or is the word shock?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Shock.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MR ROUX: While we're on that subject, can you just describe to the Commission how this machine operates?

GINOTRY DANSTER: U turn it, there's a handle and the second person takes the two wires, puts it on your body wherever they choose to.  If you wind this machine to be more powerful you splash water on the victim and then the victim will give us the information because of the pain.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's try and confine yourself as to what you did on this particular occasion, do you understand?  Tell us who put this bag on Mr Kondile's head?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We all took part in that.

CHAIRPERSON: Who operated that crank handle of this machine?

GINOTRY DANSTER: The Captain showed us how to use the machine.

CHAIRPERSON: My question is, who did it, who handled the crank handle on Mr Kondile?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We all used the machine and turned the crank handle.

CHAIRPERSON: Who held the wires?

GINOTRY DANSTER: When one is turning the handle, the other person would have to put the wires on his body, whoever it was.

CHAIRPERSON: So, do I gather from you that all of you, at some time or the other turned the crank handle and all of you at some time or the other, held the wires to the body of Mr Kondile?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and who did the questioning?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Mr du Plessis.

MR ROUX: What was Mr Kondile's attitude towards co-operating during the initial weeks?

CHAIRPERSON: During when?

GINOTRY DANSTER: During the initial weeks of detainment in Jeffrey's Bay.

MR BOOYENS: That's a leading question, the witness never said that ...[indistinct] was initially detained for weeks in Jeffrey's Bay.

GINOTRY DANSTER: I'll correct that.  How long was Mr Kondile detained in Jeffrey's Bay?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Quite a long time, I think plus minus 12 weeks.

MR ROUX: During the initial weeks of his detainment, what was his attitude towards co-operation?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He would not co-operate.

CHAIRPERSON: Despite the use of little machine you were talking about?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We used a car tube and the machine.

MR ROUX: Can you tell the commission about this car tube you just mentioned?

GINOTRY DANSTER: The car tube is round, you cut it, close it on the top so that there is no air for the victim and he would struggle to breath.  In the same instance the machine is being used on his body that gives pain to the victim and it tires him quickly.  We'd then remove the tube after you'd collapsed and feinted, to give him a bit of air.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the tube put around the head of Mr Kondile as well?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to the prisoner's bag, would that stay on his head while the tube is put around his face or was the bag removed?

GINOTRY DANSTER: The bag was removed.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you were asked whether Mr Kondile co-operated at first by answering questions and you said that at first he did not co-operate and my question to you was, is that despite the use of these methods on him that he did not co-operate?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He gave us a lot of information after we had tortured him.

MR ROUX: Did Captain du Plessis play any role after that first display of how to get information or the truth out of the person?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He would get in touch with us from day to day.

CHAIRPERSON: You know that doesn't seem to be an answer to the question.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR ROUX: What was the purpose of him getting in touch with you?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He wanted information, answers of what we'd asked Mr Kondile.  He wanted to know if we were getting the information that we'd targeted.

MR ROUX: Did he give any instructions regarding the fact that in the initial weeks Mr Kondile wasn't so co-operative?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Please repeat  your question.

MR ROUX: In the initial weeks you testified Mr Kondile wasn't so co-operative, did Mr du Plessis say anything about this?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR ROUX: Tell the commission if you can remember.

GINOTRY DANSTER: He said that we should not beat him up.

MR ROUX: Did he afford a reason for that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Because he does not want a: "Steve Biko" case again.

MR ROUX: What do you know about Mr van Rensburg in regard to Mr Kondile?

GINOTRY DANSTER: As Mr van Rensburg was the head, he would come to Jeffrey's Bay with Mr Erasmus.

MR ROUX: If you say he would come to Jeffrey's Bay, where in Jeffrey's Bay?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He would come to the room where we were interrogating Sizwe.

MR ROUX: Was Mr van Rensburg or Erasmus ever present while there was an interrogation taking place?

GINOTRY DANSTER: They would get there and talk to Captain du Plessis.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] present when Mr Kondile was being interrogated, that's the question.

GINOTRY DANSTER: No, they would just go there to assess the progress.

MR ROUX: What was the purpose of the interrogation?

GINOTRY DANSTER: The orders by Captain du Plessis were such ...[inaudible] He wanted to know about ammunition, people who were trained guerrillas.

MR NYOKA: Sorry Mr Chairman, just help - sorry Mr Chairman, can I be or assistance, it's not ammunition it's about weapons, not ammunition but weapons.  Thank you.

MR ROUX: What do you know about armed caches?