Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: denies involvement in massacre and thenon the next page, I think quite properly pointed out by

<UNKNOWN>: dv De Jager at thetime, that in

<UNKNOWN>: frikaans, in the middle sort of in the paragraph next to theseidentikits there is in

<UNKNOWN>: frikaans, you don't have to read it, but the sum totalof what that says is again where the organisation accepts responsibility forwhat happened. Now, I want you to comment just on the denial that you see thereon page 36. Did you see that? I suppose on the 26th of July you had been arrested,you had been in prison at the time, awaiting trial, weren't you?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: When?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Sorry, this is the day after the incident, sorry, Iam getting confused now with the matter before this. July the 26th was justafter the killings. You are from

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town is that right?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes,that is right.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Is this from the

<UNKNOWN>: rgus, do you read the

<UNKNOWN>: rgus?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Only when I've got money I do buy

<UNKNOWN>: rgus.

<UNKNOWN>: utdid you see this, did you read this particular article then?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: No.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now, Mr Makoma, you know what you did. The carnage thatyou inflicted on the churchgoers attending the church at the time, resultingin the death of 11 persons and injury, some of them maiming people for life,like the Russian gentleman whose letter was read to you yesterday, to us yesterday.What is your view of that now, how do you view what you did? How do you feelabout it today?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: What I can say is this, to those relativeswhose loved ones have been killed and those who had injured, and those who werebadly hurt, as I was deeply involved in that mess, I threw a handgrenade, Ifired shots obeying the instructions from my

<UNKNOWN>: ommander, that resulted in whatwe are talking today about, I do regret and please forgive me because it wasthe situation in South

<UNKNOWN>: frica at that time.

<UNKNOWN>: nd as a soldier, obeying instructionsfrom the

<UNKNOWN>: ommander, I was trained that the

<UNKNOWN>: ommander is the only one that givesthe instructions. You don't have to question that. You don't have to deny that.Do as you are told. I as Khaya, as I was deeply involved in this, but therewas nothing I could do, to let this not happen because this was an order fromabove and as a soldier I had to obey the instructions. I am so sorry, pleaseforgive me. To those who had been injured and their loved ones who passed away.I know there is no one who had the right to kill.

<UNKNOWN>: ut the situation in South

<UNKNOWN>: frica led us as we were young as we were, to do those things because we grewup in a violent country. We were seeing our fellow

<UNKNOWN>: fricans being shot and killedby the Whites.

<UNKNOWN>: ll in all, I don't know if you grew up in such circumstances,wouldn't you expect such things to happen because we were not involved in thestruggle because we wanted to, we were forced by the situations. There is nothingI can say. If you do forgive me, or you don't, it is all up to you.

<UNKNOWN>: ut theinformation you wanted to know who did this, I as Khaya, I told them what Idid and how was I involved. That is all, thank you.

NORMAN ARENDSE: How doyou feel towards or about White people now, today?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: What I cansay today, it is a new South

<UNKNOWN>: frica and I also know that this new South

<UNKNOWN>: fricacame through struggle by the

<UNKNOWN>: fricans. So the Whites are also people, we werenot fighting them because they were White, we were fighting them because oftheir deeds as the White nation. If today, as I am listening on television andradio, because I am in prison, they said there is peace amongst the

<UNKNOWN>: fricans,Whites and

<UNKNOWN>: lacks, I am happy to see that.

<UNKNOWN>: s Whites they are not looking to

<UNKNOWN>: lack people as animals that were supposed to be killed, armed or not armed,sleeping or alive, young or old, because what they did were not directed toold people, they were directed to the youth as

<UNKNOWN>: fricans, as part of the

<UNKNOWN>: fricannation, we made a decision that we won't tolerate such a thing. So, when thereis peace, I am also prepared to take them as human beings. If they are alsotaking

<UNKNOWN>: fricans as human beings, people who have the right to live, to go anywhere,to say anything independently because by the time we were involved in this mess,such things couldn't happen.

<UNKNOWN>: nd as we were young, blood was still very hot,we couldn't tolerate those things. I don't say that gives me the power or thewill to go out and kill as I wish. I was obeying the instructions from my

<UNKNOWN>: ommander.

<UNKNOWN>: s he couldn't come forward and agree to this because he passed away, becauseit is clear that we are the ones that have to answer. I am saying to the parents,those who lost their children, injured, we are very sorry. Not because of theSt James massacre, but in everything that happened under the name of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: , becauseit was the situation in South

<UNKNOWN>: frica during those days. We were also forcedto do such things. I am finished, thank you.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Khaya, we nowknow that there were not only White people in the church, there were also so-called

<UNKNOWN>: oloured people in the church. Were you aware of that fact at the time?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: No, I as Khaya I didn't know that.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Did you assumethat there were only White people going to be present in the church or at thetarget?

<UNKNOWN>: s far as I know,

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: was fighting the Whites. Sowhen we were going to attack there, I assumed that we were fighting the Whites.

<UNKNOWN>: s I was inside the church, I didn't notice anyone who is not a White. Evenif that person was there, the order said I must shoot, throw the handgrenade,I couldn't reject that because I was trained that the instructions are not disobeyed.

ADVARENDSE: The Judge in the trial, when he found you guilty said, and Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairmanI am referring to page 50 of the record, the line 5 or so from the bottom, hesaid - Khaya, it is not in front of you there, I just want to read the portionof the sentence there which says that the attack could only have been committedto serve a political objective. That is what the Judge said in your case, doyou agree with that finding of the Judge?

GCINIKHAYACHRISTOPHER MAKOMA: Yes, I do agree withthat.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, I have got no further questions.

<UNKNOWN>: efore you stop Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rendse, I am afraid I am totally confused andI would like to clarify something and I don't want you to think that I am reopeningthe question. You told us of a statement made by this witness which was introducedas evidence at the trial and which the Judge rejected.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thatis right.

JUDGE WILSON: Is that so?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: You then referred to pages 7, 8 and 9 of the bundle.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Of thebundle handed in, yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Handed in, yes. Now that is a statementmade by the applicant, it was not introduced in the trial, no ruling was madeabout it. Is that not so?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Judge, I do see that this is astatement that appears to have been taken by Don Segal.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, it was not the statement that was handed in at the trial, it is not thestatement that the trial Judge made a ruling about.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes,no I accept that.

JUDGE WILSON: So it is totally irrelevant from thatpoint of view?

NORMAN ARENDSE: The only relevance Judge, with due respect...

JUDGEWILSON: The statement made at the trial, is at page 10.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Ten of the bundle?

JUDGE WILSON: Ten of the bundle handed in. It goeson from there.