Human Rights Violation Hearings — Ladybrand — 1997-06-24

PROF MAGWAZA: (Inaudible) ... understanding.  Was Simano shot dead because of his involvement in politics or because of these other charges which he had against him?

WITNESS:   I think he was killed because of the case he came out clean with.

PROF MAGWAZA: Okay.  Can you tell us then what happened thereafter?

WITNESS:   Simano came home to pick up Bunkie, and he said, "Bunkie, come with me.  Come and see, your dog is dead."  He took Bunkie and he took him to the place where the deceased was, and he said to Bunkie, "I can also kill you if I like."

PROF MAGWAZA: Can you tell us up to the time you had a funeral and there was a police presence?  Just give us the complete story.  Tell us as though we don't know anything at all.

WITNESS:   In the morning they came back, they picked my mother and my father, they took them to the police station, and the deceased at that time was still lying in the veld, and Simano was ordered to go and get him.  He was ordered by other policemen.  And he didn't want to, he was just chanting in the room.  I do not know what happened thereafter because we were outside, my parents were inside the police station.  And they then left to go and fetch the body.  And we left home.  My parents were left behind at the police station.  The person who can be in a position to describe this is my husband.

PROF MAGWAZA: How did your mother die?

WITNESS:   She was on her way from work, and there was a quarrel in the house with my father and she decided to go and take a walk, and she met my brother called Dankithelo, and there and then there was an argument, an altercation - I do not know now the involvement of my mother - and she was shot.

PROF MAGWAZA: Ja.  This is a case where you have lost two family members, and also this is a case where I am not getting a very clear sense of whether this thing was politically motivated from you.  It doesn't sound like a case where there were politics involved, unless you want to explain to me how is politics involved in this case.  I am having a bit of a problem.

WITNESS:   I do not understand you.

PROF MAGWAZA: Well, what I am trying to say here is that the cases we deal with here are the cases where people were violated or killed for political reasons, not just any other reason.  Now that you have submitted your case I would like you to make me understand in what way do you think in this case there were politics involved in the way your brother was killed.  Interpretation please, I can't hear.

INTERPRETER: The witness is not giving an answer, she is asking how is it connected to politics.

PROF MAGWAZA: I would like to take this opportunity to give it to any of my colleagues to pursue it.
/CHAIRPERSON

CHAIRPERSON: Ilan, do you want to pursue this?  (Pause)

PROF MAGWAZA: Okay, Liesbet, I think the bit of a problem I have here is that you are bringing a case here about the loss you have had with your brother, and that's a serious loss for you, but it looks like some of the information you could have heard it from your - you said your brother-in-law?  Your husband.  Now, I am trying as much as possible to get information that will help us to deal with the case, but in the absence of that I will ask whatever I need to ask from you, because after all somebody was lost here.  Can you tell us, your brother - tell us more about the death of your brother, because somewhere in the statement there's an indication that some parts of your brother were missing.  What was the situation of your brother's death?

WITNESS:   That's correct.  Behind the head there was an open hole, and we buried him without that portion.

PROF MAGWAZA: (Inaudible) ... into the funeral itself.  You said that the police used a tear gas.  Why did they use a tear gas?

WITNESS:   At the night vigil they were spraying the tear gas.  Even the funeral function they were spraying the tear gas, even shooting.  Until we buried him they carried on with their shooting, and people were just fainting because it was also a rainy day.

PROF MAGWAZA: And when - okay.

WITNESS:   Until we came back from the cemetery the police vans were still driving behind us, and people did not eat the food on that day.  They came the next day to eat the food.  This was all because of the police, because of the tear gases spraying at us.

PROF MAGWAZA: The other thing I noticed, that the police who shot your brother has the same surname as the other police, Simano, who was a Security Police, and that it could be that it is the same police, that there could have been other political reasons which you are not sure of.  Is it possible?

WITNESS:   It's not possible.

PROF MAGWAZA: After this happened did you report the case to the police station?  Was there a court case?

WITNESS:   No, the people of the ANC were helping us.

PROF MAGWAZA: What did they do?  Did you go to court?

WITNESS:   We did not even appear before the Court of Law.  This issue ended up nowhere.

PROF MAGWAZA: The people of the ANC who were helping you, who were those people?  Do you know their names?

WITNESS:   I know Mopufu.  He is among the people sitting here.

PROF MAGWAZA: Anybody else?

WITNESS:   Yes.  His name is Muzunjani.

PROF MAGWAZA: The matter was reported to the police station.  Which police station?

WITNESS:   Bethulie Police Station.

PROF MAGWAZA: Do you know the name of the police who was in charge of this, in charge of your case?

WITNESS:   I think Mopufu knows the name of the policeman who was in charge.

PROF MAGWAZA: You wouldn't have any case number about this particular case, so you have nothing that could help us in this case?

WITNESS:   I don't know.  You know, at that time I was still well enlightened, and I did not communicate with my elders.

PROF MAGWAZA: Okay, I understand your problem. Other than Simano which other police was involved in the death of your brother

WITNESS:   It was only Simano.

PROF MAGWAZA: Do you know where Simano is now?

WITNESS:   Simano has since died.

PROF MAGWAZA: One last question.  Your brother, at the time of his death was he married, did he have any children?

WITNESS:   Yes, he has one child.

PROF MAGWAZA: And where is that child?

WITNESS:   The child is living with the mother.

PROF MAGWAZA: Do you know where the mother is?

WITNESS:   I was told that she is working somewhere in Bloemfontein, and the child is at the home, he is staying with the grandmother.

PROF MAGWAZA: How old is the child?

WITNESS:   I think the child is seven, if not eight years old.

PROF MAGWAZA: Liesbet, I understand your problem that you came here on behalf of your brother, but because at that time you saw you were not that enlightened you don't have some of the information.  With the information we have, and possibly other information we might get, we will try to follow up this case.  I would like now to pass you over to our Chairperson.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.  Just two questions.  I understand from another witness' evidence that will be coming later on in the day that there was actually an inquest for your brother which was held in Bloemfontein.  Did you never hear about that?

WITNESS:   I heard just a little about this issues, Sir.

MR LAX: So we can follow that up with the other person.  Now, with regard to your mother's death was there an inquest?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... that happen?

WITNESS:   This took place at home.

MR LAX: (Inaudible)

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR LAX: Was it in the Magistrate's Court there?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR LAX: Okay.  Then we can follow that up as well.  Thank you very much.

MR LAX: /CHAIRPERSON