Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

MR SIBANYONI: And lastly, if a person will say you have told lies on various occasions before, as a result it would risky to accept what you are saying, what would be your response?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sir, I admitted under oath again today that for 12 years I've been lying.  If my evidence will be accepted now, I cannot say.  All that I'm saying is that anybody with a little bit of intelligence can see that I've denied that I had anything to do with the Webster incident, I've denied all involvement.  I did it to protect the government of the day, to protect the Defence Force and to protect myself.  For me the situation is now applicable, the game's over, I do not have to do it anymore.  I cannot tell you how I feel after I reconciled with Mrs Omar and after I got rid of all the rubbish, I feel like somebody that was healed from cancer.  I'm very satisfied that I did the right thing now.

MR SIBANYONI: You confirm that there's no better truth than you have told before this Committee?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sir, I think a few men can come here and follow my example.  I was against the TRC process about telling the truth, you could get anybody else who was more rigid than me in my thoughts, maybe Joe Verster, but I cannot tell you how strongly I would tell others to come and tell the truth here, if they still have the opportunity, after what happened to me here.  It is a day and night difference in what I'm feeling now.  I know I will go back to my cell.  From day one when I decided to give evidence here I did not make myself popular with some of my comrades.  It's not about getting amnesty for three-quarters of the things that I was charged with and found guilty of.  I cannot get amnesty and I also did not apply for them in terms of the Act and the description of the Act, but it's not about that, it's about reconciliation and suddenly it became really important and what happened here made it important.  I agree with you a hundred percent and I cannot tell anybody else to come here.
	I was confused at one stage and Mr Calla Botha came to me and I consulted with him and I said to him I do want to do this, but I've got something in me that is very strong and I do not want to testify against anybody else, I do not want to send them to jail.  It's still there, it's not gone.  I do not want them to open the doors in the morning in C-Max and there's 45 of us standing in a row, it's also not reconciliation.  I do not want to send anyone else to jail.  I do not want Joe Verster to go to jail, even for one day.  Today it's about reconciliation and peace of mind.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Barnard, you told us that when you first heard of the Webster operation, in the same breath an operation against Mr Jay Naidoo was contemplated, but that priority must be given to the Webster operation and you then successfully carried out the Webster operation.  Was there any follow-up regarding the Jay Naidoo operation?   Was it mentioned again, anything?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, I recruited a source at the Wits University who had a lot of access and who attended certain meetings where Jay Naidoo was involved.  He also had access to these meetings.  I tasked this person and after approximately a week or ten days he brought back information with regard to an address being the address of Mr Jay Naidoo, 93 Hopkins Street, Yeoville, but I did not do a follow-up afterwards or I was not tasked on it any further.  I had to lie low and I could have been used abroad.

CHAIRPERSON: You also told us that in 1984 you were sentenced to an effective 6 year term of imprisonment, you got 20 years but an effective 6 year term for two murders and that you were released towards the end of '87, on parole.

FERDINAND BARNARD: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then also from you narrative it's quite clear that very shortly after your arrest you seriously got involved in crime in the Johannesburg underworld, you ran brothels, you dealt with drugs, you consumed drugs yourself, you were involved in assaults and robberies and all sorts of criminal activities.  Was your parole officer just inefficient or had some arrangement been made to keep him off your back?  How did you manage to do all this without your parole officer knowing about it?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, I saw the parole officer once every two weeks and afterwards once a month, but I never informed the parole officer that I changed careers.  I still had the same telephone numbers, so I misled them concerning this.  And then concerning the criminal involvement and the involvement with drugs, it started over a longer period of time, because I was tasked by the system to have contact with these criminals every day and it was a systematic change that happened.
	After I was released from prison I was 31 years old and I was so fit and I got a place in the first team in the Roodepoort rugby team and as I became more and more involved in it and I had to prove myself and where people tested me I went overboard.  I still cannot believe that I ended up where I did, because I did not take any substances my whole life and then ...  There's no-one here who can say I drank a single beer until I became 32, and then suddenly I became a full-on alcoholic and drug addict.  It is something that happened to me and that is why I want to become the way I was before.  
	That is why in C-Max, C-Max did what two rehabilitation centres could not do.  I am fit, I live a healthy life and I feel there's a big step towards healing, in that I came here to tell the truth and made a full disclosure.  It's not even important if you believe me or not, for myself it's important.

CHAIRPERSON: And then lastly, when you were being questioned by Mr Bizos, correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection is that you said that when you were here, I think it was in the July session of the hearings, when Verster approached you, spoke to you and said that you must, to use the euphemism used by Mr Bizos, "fix the General" ...(intervention)

FERDINAND BARNARD: That was the first sitting.

CHAIRPERSON: The first sitting.  And then you were asked well why did you think he said that to you and you said you thought that he wanted you to implicate Gen Webb in the Webster operation, is that correct?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why would he have thought that at that stage, because even at that stage you had not made up your mind to come and give the evidence that you have here, and that he was denying the Webster operation and you were denying it, so why did you think that he wanted you now to implicate Webb?  How could you have done that?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Without implicating myself?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.