Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

H B DU PLESSIS: It's very difficult.  I do not know how long 
he had been with the Security Branch at that stage so it's difficult 
for me to say as to whether I knew him for a year or two years.  I 
knew him quite well, he worked under me.

CHAIRPERSON: During the time that you had Kondile under 
interrogation was Danster at the same police station or the same 
unit that you were?

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Danster knew that Kondile was being 
interrogated?

H B DU PLESSIS: I do not think that he knew, I think it's a case 
of him hearing a bit, and at a later stage he was used by myself 
and Mr Raath in the single quarters at Jeffrey's Bay.

CHAIRPERSON: You've no doubt read the statement made by 
Mr Danster?

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Among other things he says "there were 
occasions when Kondile was kept without sleep for several nights, 
his torture would extend for days", have you anything to say 
about that?

H B DU PLESSIS: I can deny this categorically, really.

CHAIRPERSON: He also says, among other things, that Kondile 
was suffocated with a tube, an electric shock was administered to 
him for lengthy periods.

H B DU PLESSIS: I deny that.  I can only speak for myself.  I 
have no knowledge of this.

CHAIRPERSON: He doesn't say that you applied electric shock 
to him, he says that this was what was done to Kondile and all 
you are saying is you don't know about it?

H B DU PLESSIS: I do not know about that.

CHAIRPERSON: That might have been done by somebody else?

H B DU PLESSIS: If that had happened I believe that he would 
have complained in the first place.  In the second place one would 
have seen the scars.  That is what I would like to believe.

ADV DE JAGER: Were those methods not followed exactly for 
that reason so that there were to be no scars?

H B DU PLESSIS: I do not know if one is assaulted so seriously 
or suffocated with tubes then I think there would have been scars.

CHAIRPERSON: If one is kept without sleep for long periods of 
time during interrogation then there would be no scars.

H B DU PLESSIS: That is correct but I would have realised 
that.

CHAIRPERSON: How?

H B DU PLESSIS: By seeing that he was sleepy and exhausted.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  That means only that you were there at 
the time.  I understand you were not 24 hours a day with Kondile.

H B DU PLESSIS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In your absence this might have been done to 
him.

H B DU PLESSIS: Yes I think that anything is always possible, 
but I have no knowledge of that.

CHAIRPERSON: You have heard of people being kept awake 
for long periods of time during interrogation?

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So that's not such a strange thought?

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct.  I also want to tell you that I 
do not know why, why in this case it would have been necessary.

CHAIRPERSON: It may be necessary because they were seeking 
to extract information from him and he was apparently not willing 
to give that information.

H B DU PLESSIS: I must differ there.

CHAIRPERSON: There can be no other reason why this was 
done.  I mean if he was very, very willing in giving information 
there would be no need for anybody to do that, to keep the man 
awake for several hours.

H B DU PLESSIS: That's why I am denying this.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you are denying that you did it, and I am 
putting it to you that there is a possibility that that was done 
because you weren't there 24 hours a day.

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct but I am telling you that it 
might be possible but it is highly improbable that a person whom I 
was satisfied had given the information would have been treated 
in this way.

CHAIRPERSON: May this not have been done before he gave 
the information?

H B DU PLESSIS: I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: There was no point in doing this when he had 
already given information.

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So when it's suggested that this was done it 
could only be before he volunteered information if he did 
volunteer.

H B DU PLESSIS: He started in Bloemfontein by giving us 
information.

CHAIRPERSON: Well nobody from Bloemfontein has come to 
tell us that.

H B DU PLESSIS: I am now dealing with the report that I 
received and I am satisfied in my heart that this comes from 
Bloemfontein and I am satisfied that they only received this from 
one source and that was from Kondile.

CHAIRPERSON: What dealings have you had with Mr Danster 
after the death of Kondile?

H B DU PLESSIS: I cannot remember.  He was still at the 
Security Branch and they charged him with one or other criminal 
offence and I really do not know anything more about the path 
that he followed.  It's a long time ago since I've seen him.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he still in the police force?

H B DU PLESSIS: No, not as far as I know.

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr du Plessis tell me, I've not doubt that you 
read the statement starting on page 13 of the record before you 
signed it.  That's your statement, your application for indemnity.

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

JUDGE PILLAY: You were absolutely satisfied with all the 
facts as contained in there before you signed it?

H B DU PLESSIS: I believe that to be true, yes.

JUDGE PILLAY: That the question of sleeping agencies were 
possibly used on Mr Kondile before he was shot, was it only 
today or some time before?

H B DU PLESSIS: I'm speaking under correction but the record 
can speak for itself. I think that in the Harms Commission it was 
mentioned, or in the first statement from Mr Coetzee which he 
made, I think he mentioned  it there.

JUDGE PILLAY: Did you accept that as the truth?

H B DU PLESSIS: No I did not.

JUDGE PILLAY: On  page 17, page 5 of your statement, the 
top line, your statement reads as follows
		"On that particular evening Mr Kondile was given a 
sleeping drug without his  knowledge."

H B DU PLESSIS: That's correct.  This fact I heard from 
Colonel van Rensburg after the incident that he had been given a 
sleeping drug.  However I did not see what had happened.  I did 
see that he had something to drink but I did not know that there 
was something in the drink.

JUDGE PILLAY: That fact was not within your personal 
knowledge as such?

H B DU PLESSIS: No.  I did make the deduction and that is why 
it was discussed with us because from where he sat he just fell 
over.

JUDGE PILLAY: I see in one of the introductory questions you 
were also asked whether you were an official or member or 
supporter of any political organisation and so forth, if so name it 
and you said it's not applicable.

H B DU PLESSIS: I think that we rectified this at a later stage.

JUDGE PILLAY: I am sorry, because then the version I've got, 
the copy I've got say it's (...intervention).

ADV BOOYENS: Mr Chairman with your permission, the copy 
I've got here, 7A is National Party member, if I can perhaps just 
show it to you, there may have been some logistic problems 
somewhere. But the NVP's(?) have definitely been corrected.  
With the Commission's permission perhaps, no we haven't got 
typing logistics but if we could perhaps then just replace page 1 
there, if it hasn't been done on the Commission's papers. I think 
we've got.....

ADV BOOYENS: The copy that we have does not include that.  
I apologise, I don't know how this happened; may I ask, my 
lawyer still has two copies here, may  I just ask permission, we 
don't have any more but the others have been sent.

ADV DE JAGER: Perhaps you must just ensure that the correct 
copies are in front of  us if there are amendments, because it may 
be that we will deal with documents which aren't the correct 
documents.

ADV BOOYENS: We will definitely ensure that that is the case. 
 I will ask my lawyer to look at the committee member's 
documents and to ensure that they're correct.