Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-25

YASMINE SOOKA: It seems quite clear that we, from the evidence that you have given to us, that you have also given evidence to all of these different commissions.  I think we will need to go back to those commissions and also have a look at that in regard to your own case, and we will probably have to call you in so that we can take a further statement from you. I think that is what we are going to have to do in your particular case.  But in addition to that, part of the job of this particular Commission is to recommend to Government policy recommendations to ensure that gross human rights violations don't take place again in our country.  In addition to that, where we find that people have been the victims of gross human rights violations, we also have to recommend to Government a reparation and rehabilitation policy, in terms of those particular victims.  What I am asking you is whether you have any ideas which you would like to offer and suggestions to this Commission about both issues; gross human rights violations and a reparation policy in the future.

UNKNOWN: Well, I am sorry to say this, but seemingly those SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
21 L DYASOP
gross violations of human rights, seemingly didn't end up in exile. I don't know whether according to the statement you have there, is where my story ends.  Because my story still continues because I later, together with my friends, when we got back from exile, my friend was killed in Umtata.  He was killed by people whom I recognised as ANC people.  I don't know whether that story is amongst - because in my report I mentioned that.  
 This is something which worries me a lot, because when we came back, I must tell the story.  People must ... (intervention).

YASMINE SOOKA: I would ask you to be very brief in the telling of that story, because we have given you, I think almost an hour to talk about your own treatment in Quattro, and that is actually the basis of your submission to us. I don't want to stop you in the full flow of your statement, but I would ask you to be brief, please, on that particular score.

UNKNOWN: I am really sorry, I am really disappointed to find that, because I am talking here about death. I am talking here about the violation of human rights.  Why should I be curtailed, why, why, people, why people, should  you give me time. I mean here I am dealing with things which concern me mostly.  Here I am talking about things that is life and death.

CHAIRPERSON: Sir, can I please bring you to order, please.  We have other witnesses standing, we have given you ample time.  We are giving you ample time to say exactly what you want to say.  Thank you.

UNKNOWN: I have a case which is still, they say is sub judice.  My comrade died in Umtata in 1990.  I give the Transkei legislature every evidence. I even have names of
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
22 L DYASOP
the people who killed my friend, people who wanted to kill me, you see.  So that's why I put so much concern on this.

YASMINE SOOKA: What is the name of your comrade?

UNKNOWN: Sipho Pongola.

YASMINE SOOKA: Obviously this matter must have been a criminal matter. Was this case ever prosecuted in the courts in the Transkei?

UNKNOWN: No. Even today it has been a cover-up, cover-up, cover-up, because I even said this to Bantu Holimisa and said ths is a cover-up, and really, really, it has been a cover-up, because I understand it was a matter of being patriotic to cover-up.  People who are ANC members who had killed. I am talking about people who have killed now.  Not only tortured, because I have been tortured, mentally tortured, but now I am talking about my friend who was tortured in Quattro and who is now dead.  He was killed.

YASMINE SOOKA: Tell me at the time that your friend was killed, did you make a statement to the Transkeian police so that the matter could be taken further?

UNKNOWN: Of course, I did. I gave them, I did a statement on that June 13th 1990. I give the statement and later I have been trying to, my best, what happened in 1991.  These suspects were arrested and they appeared in the Umtata Court.  They were not asked to plead and they were out on R100,00 bail.  You see, that's why I am now appearing in Johannesburg instead of appearing in Umtata, because all along I have been fearing for my own life.  I am really sorry that the Commission had to stop where only to limit itself to my treatment in Quattro.  That is why I am saying treatment in Quattro didn't end there. It even got to ...

YASMINE SOOKA: Sorry, may I just stop you there. I think the
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
23 L DYASOP
problem is that when you made your submission to us, it was made in respect of your own arrests by the ANC when you were out of the country and it dealt with greatly your own confinement in Quattro and your treatment at the hands of the people who were in charge at Quattro.   
 I think if you are dealing with a matter which you have not dealt with in your statement, I would prefer that we actually take another statement from you and allow you to talk to that statement at another opportunity, so that we can deal with that matter on its own.  We have allowed you a considerable amount of time, which is what we allow all witnesses. In fact, we have given you more time than we normally give people. 
 I do not want to stop you in the free flow, but it is not very fair to the other witnesses who are waiting and we have allowed you to speak at length about your own confinement at Quattro. 
 You have given us the details and we will in fact ask one of our statement-takes immediately to take your other statement, so that you may have an opportunity to deal with that issue at length.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I  would ask other fellow Commissioners to ask you more questions.  Hugh Lewin?
Joyce Seroke?  Glenda?

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: I just have one short question to put to you. You have talked at length about the torture that you had in Quattro.  Could you just give us an idea of what the impact of that torture, particularly has been on your life and the life of your family.  If you could just explain to us what it meant for you, and for your family.

UNKNOWN: I mean, my family,  I told my family my
SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
24 L DYASOP
experience in exile.  They were surprised.    They were surprised at the treatment I got from my own fellow comrades.  Well, there is nothing they can do.  There is nothing I can do too.  I must say that I am really disappointed with the Commission, the way it is treating this matter. I am really disappointed and right now I am considering, I think this case, this other case which I say has been a cover-up, I think I am going to take it, not with the Commission, I don't want to pester you, I think I am going to take it ... I will try something else, people, I am really disappointed by the Commission, I am disappointed.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Maybe I could make a comment or two about that.  The suggestion made by our fellow Commissioner Yasmin Sooka was that that aspect of your statement to be taken by a statement-taker, I think that we need to do it, to do the follow-up that was suggested by the Commissioner. It is important that when we deal with a particular matter before us, that the Commission in fact has the facts before us here at the table so that we can adequately deal with that aspect of your story.  In the absence of that aspect of your story, we wondered whether it would do you better that we have a statement before us so that we can treat it and give it the importance that it does deserve.

CHAIRPERSON: Tom Manthata, have you got any questions?