Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-12

MADODA KULA: We were working, we were working together and I know him from the community.

ADV SANDI: Is he staying in Msobomvu?

MADODA KULA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Where were you on this particular day when this incident took place?

MADODA KULA: I was not there.

ADV SANDI: Where were you?

MADODA KULA: I was at home in Stutterheim.

ADV SANDI: Did you hear about the incident?

MADODA KULA: Yes, I heard about it over the radio.

ADV SANDI: What did you hear over the radio?

MADODA KULA: I heard that there were people who died in Msobomvu belonging to the Ngece family.

ADV SANDI: Did you believe that?

MADODA KULA: I did not believe it, because I was not there and I did not see it.

ADV SANDI: After you returned to the location, did you hear that this actually happened?

MADODA KULA: I did not return to the location.

ADV SANDI: Do you know the Ngece family?

MADODA KULA: Yes, because we were all staying in the same village.

ADV SANDI: Did you have any conflict with them?

MADODA KULA: No.

ADV SANDI: Mr Chairperson, that is all I wanted to ask for now.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Rev Xundu?

REV XUNDU: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Kula, at this time who were you working for?  At the time of this incident on the 15th of October who were you working for?

MADODA KULA: I was working for the Ciskei Defence Force.

REV XUNDU: Was it a usual thing for you to go and patrol in the villages or was it for the first time that this thing happened according to your knowledge?

MADODA KULA: Can you please repeat your question?

REV XUNDU: As you were listening to the testimony the police used to come to the houses beating people.  Was it the first time this incident happened according to your knowledge that the police would go to the village and beat and assault people?

MADODA KULA: I am not sure, because I was not deployed.

REV XUNDU: You mean that you were never involved, you were never deployed to the villages?

MADODA KULA: No.

REV XUNDU: At the time of the incident, the people who said that they were ANC members, were they unbanned at this time?

MADODA KULA: I am not sure.

REV XUNDU: When was the ANC unbanned according to your knowledge?

MADODA KULA: I do not know, because I am not politically active.

REV XUNDU: What was your duty in the Ciskeian Defence Force?

MADODA KULA: I was in their logistic department.

REV XUNDU: You were not aware of the banned meetings, you were not aware that they were unbanned?

MADODA KULA: This is not connected to my duty.

REV XUNDU: As a citizen, were you not aware that the ANC was unbanned, were you not aware that there were negotiations between the ANC and the Government?

MADODA KULA: I could, I use to hear this over the radio.

REV XUNDU: As a person who was working for the Government, you are supposed to be current concerning the security of the country.  We want the truth from you.  You were protecting the Government of Ciskei, but you are saying that you were not aware of whether the ANC was unbanned.  Do you want us to believe this?

MR REDPAS: Mr Chairperson, with respect, I have been following these questions.  They do not seem to be at all relevant to show that Madoda Kula may or may not have been at the scene to which the witnesses have testified.

REV XUNDU: The reason why I ask these questions, Mr Chairperson, is to ascertain and to make sure that the people that were involved in this matter as soldiers,  he was also a soldier, they would, they would go into the villages beating people up, intimidating people.  I want to ascertain whether he was part of this or not.  Therefore I am asking questions that are going to reveal that he is not part of this at all as he says.  So therefore on this day you were in Stutterheim?

MADODA KULA: Yes.

REV XUNDU: You therefore have nothing to do with this incident with the Ngece family?

MADODA KULA: Nothing.

REV XUNDU: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kula, you have applied for amnesty for having thrown a hand grenade on the 15th of October 1992, no, 22nd of October 1992.  Is that so?

MADODA KULA: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: This house is not connected to the Ngece home at all?

MADODA KULA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: That was another attack altogether?

MADODA KULA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know how many attacks were in Msobomvu at the time?

MADODA KULA: No, I am not aware.

CHAIRPERSON: You are not aware and the 22nd October 1992 incident was just on its own?  What is the relation between you and the Ngece family?  What is happening now?

MADODA KULA: I do not stay in that village anymore.  I do not see them.  I sometimes see them in King William's Town.  I have nothing against them.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, thank you very much for appearing before us Mr Kula and thank you Advocate Redpas.  We are not contemplating making a finding on Mr Kula now.  We have notified him that he is going to be mentioned in the testimony that will be presented to us as the Commission.  We are still going to make a decision on whether we want to make a finding on him as a perpetrator or not and if we are, at any stage, contemplating, making a finding in that record, we will duly notify him through yourselves now that you are representing him and we will then give him a chance to address us before we make that finding.  For now we are going to be going into investigations.  We will be interested in talking further to Mr Galana who seems to have implicated him and investigate and see if we want to contemplate a finding on him.

MR REDPAS: As the Committee pleases, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR REDPAS: May we please be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.