Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

JUDGE WILSON: But  you found him, he has opened the door, he is standing right in front of you?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: If I understand you correctly, with the whole reconnaissance team.

JUDGE WILSON: No, you saw him come out of the door, surely your immediate reaction to that would be now is the chance to arrest him and that is what you did?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is what I in fact did, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: You've been telling us a story about how you had this agony if you could turn your back on him and he might do this and he might do that.  We are suggesting to you that it is far more probable that you went there looking for him, and when you found him, you decided to arrest him.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Sir, when I saw him, he had these things over his hands.   As I say, firearm or grenade, at the worst scenario a grenade.  If at that distance that I approached him, and he dropped that grenade, none of us would have been here.  That is why I tried to cut off his escape back into the house by saying the mistake can perhaps be by the toilet and when we were next to each other, I was then close enough to grab hold of him.
	And then the whole fight started.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Benzien, when this thing happened, had you acquired a particular reputation that you have testified you had to live up to?  When this thing happened?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Excuse me Ma'am, I can't follow?

SISI KHAMPEPE: When Mr Kriel was shot, by that stage, had you acquired this reputation that you  always had to live up to?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I don't know.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And from what you are saying, which I think is much more probable, is that you would have effected an arrest, notwithstanding and in fact contrary to the instruction of Mr Liebenberg to merely locate Mr Kriel and report to him, if you found him, you would have effected an arrest, whether he was armed or not.  That is what you are saying and to me that sounds more probable?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: If circumstances allowed that and this is what in fact happened, I effected the arrest, Ma'am.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Not because he posed a threat, but because you had managed to locate this terrorist who other people had not been able to locate within two weeks?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As a policeman I effected the arrest, the compounding of the danger was that he was armed.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But you would have effected that arrest whether he was armed or not?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: With hindsight Ma'am, I am not sure.  If he was not armed and Abels and myself were armed, the situation could perhaps have changed that we could have got hold of him.  In this case, we were up against, right up against the person who already had a side arm in his hand.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you instructed by Mr Liebenberg to wear a disguise?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, Ma'am, it was my idea.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, that I started this, but you see Mr Benzien, the way that I understand your evidence is that had the deceased not posed a danger, you were in fact even if you had recognised him, you were in fact according to standing practise, not allowed to arrest him, because the arrest of a terrorist was supposed to take place in a particular way?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No Sir, I am not aware of a particular way.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, I thought you said there must first be penetration and all that sort of thing?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Depending on the circumstances.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: All right, I accept that, thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Can I ask you about something completely different.  You struggled with him and he tried to get into the house, and he got, as I understand your evidence as far as the door of the house?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Was he facing in towards the house?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: And you were behind him with your arms around him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And the shot went off?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Where was he shot?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: In his right shoulder, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: His right shoulder?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: From behind or in front?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: From behind, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: But I understood you had your arms around him, in front of him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I had my left arm around him and it was at that stage, where the right arm came up, the shot went off in his right shoulder, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Cook, I presume that you would like to reserve re-examination of the applicant, is that the position?

UNKNOWN: Indeed so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  It seems your counsel would like to proceed with your re-examination after he has made certain enquiries relating to this matter.  You may stand down.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Thank you Your Worship.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused from where you are.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Thank you Sir.
MR BENZIEN EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Papier?

MR PAPIER: Thank you Honourable Chair.  At this stage we call Michelle Ashua, she will be providing the Committee with evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Your full names please?

MICHELLE ASHUA: (sworn  states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.

MS INTHANGA: Chairperson, the Kriel family has made a request that they would like to be allowed a moment of silence and possibly to sing the Anthem before they give their evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand.  What is it what you are saying, who has asked that?

MS INTHANGA: The Kriel family, the two sisters.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS INTHANGA: They have requested that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, their counsel hasn't said that to me?

MS INTHANGA: They made a request to me Sir, I got a note just now.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the position Mr Papier, counsel most certainly has no objection Honourable Chair.  I don't have any firm instructions on it, but if those are their wishes, then I would request that the Honourable Committee considers that to happen.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it that they want done?

MR PAPIER: I understand from my colleague that there has been a request from the sisters to have a moment of silence and sing the National Anthem if I understand it correctly.

MS INTHANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I cannot adhere to their request in that form.  If they would like to observe a moment silence and sing the Anthem, then the Committee will adjourn and during the adjournment they can sing the Anthem.  Do you understand?

MR PAPIER: I understand Honourable Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PAPIER: It might be appropriate to do that after the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: It may be appropriate at that stage, thank you.  You may now proceed with your questions.

MR PAPIER: Mrs Ashua, you are the sister of the late Ashley Kriel, is that correct?

MICHELLE ASHUA: That is correct.

MR PAPIER: Now, at the time of his death, it was on the 9th of July 1987, is that correct?

MICHELLE ASHUA: That is correct.

MR PAPIER: How old were you at that time?

MICHELLE ASHUA: I was 23 years old.

MR PAPIER: And Ashley?

MICHELLE ASHUA: Ashley was 20 years old.

MR PAPIER: 20 years old?

MICHELLE ASHUA: That is correct.

MR PAPIER: Now you've seen many reports saying that he was 22 years old, is that incorrect, the reports reflecting his age as 22?

MICHELLE ASHUA: That is correct.

MR PAPIER: And his actual age is in fact 20?

MICHELLE ASHUA: That is correct.

MR PAPIER: Now on the 10th of July 1987, that is the following day, you were visited by members of the police, is that correct?

MICHELLE ASHUA: Yes, it is.

MR PAPIER: Who visited you?

MICHELLE ASHUA: A certain Captain Van Braekel and Mr Strydom.

MR PAPIER: And where did they visit you?

MICHELLE ASHUA: At my mother's home where I was residing at the moment.

MR PAPIER: And the address there?

MICHELLE ASHUA: It is 54B Flamboom Road, Bonteheuwel.

MR PAPIER: Okay.  What was the purpose of their visit, what did they say to you?