Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-21

CHAIRPERSON: Just take a look at paragraph 14.1, the first line of 14.1 it says to embark on a campaign of misurrection -m-i-s-u-r-r-e-c-t-i-o-n.  Now Mr Mpshe is asking what does misurrection mean?

MFUNDI SEYISI: That was a way or a technique of overthrowing the then government because at that time the PAC was still involved in the armed struggle so we were not permitted to operate.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it should probably be and I'm guessing, insurrection.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'm indebted to the Chair.
	Now those points that I've mentioned Mr Seyisi up to 14.4, these political objectives, are these political objectives put in your application to justify the accidental explosion in the bus or the use of the limpet mine?

MFUNDI SEYISI: In line with the political objectives of the organisation.

MR LAX: No you haven't answered the question.  The question was are these objectives used to justify the accidental explosion in the bus or the use of a limpet mine per se.  He's not asking you whether those are the policies of the PAC.

MFUNDI SEYISI: The use of the limpet mine.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Am I to assume that you'd mean the deliberate use of the limpet man as per plan, no so?

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps instead of using the word "use" maybe the possession of the limpet mine.  I mean they obviously didn't intend to use it to go off on their own lap or in their immediate vicinity, but they possessed it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is fair I think to him as well, yes, thank you Mr Chairman.
	That would mean that these are to justify the possession of the limpet mine, would you agree with that?

MFUNDI SEYISI: Yes that is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If you say yes, now let us analyse them one by one, having in mind possession of a limpet mine.
"14.1  To embark on a campaign of insurrection"
as corrected
"in the name of my political organisation to make the government authorities aware that we were not in favour of their policies."
How would mere possession eventuate this political objective?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, you maybe ...[indistinct] mislead it then by saying possession.  I think it's quite clear that from what the applicant has said is that they possessed this mine and they were going to either Umbilo, well he mentions Umbilo Police Station, to use that mine, to put it on a building somewhere and let it go off.  So it's not merely the possession but the possession with the accompanying intent to ultimately use it.  I mean they weren't taking the limpet mine for a ride on the bus, they were taking it on a bus to get to a point so they could use it somewhere.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, if that's how the Chair puts it I would agree, I've no cause to gainsay that but my question was a follow up on what he says the possession thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's what probably comes through my fault because you were first of all talking about the use of it and I thought that you were referring to it being used, going off prematurely and then I said maybe the possession but the possession with the accompanying intent to ultimately use it at a specified target.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I take your point very well.

MR LAX: If I could just, I mean it's common cause is it not because limpet mine was intended for use, it's also common cause that it went off accidentally so the issue then becomes not the accident but what was their ultimate goal if you see what I'm saying and it's in that context that one can then see to justify it but I'll leave you to maybe put your questions and then take it from there.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Can I just attend to this note?
	Thank you, I follow that very well, I follow that very well.  Turn to page 53 of the bundle.  It is a statement made, is it under oath?  Or allegedly made by Xolani Cuba particularly the first two lines thereof, I will read it for convenience.  It says:
"On the 30th November 1993 I was going to school and left my home with Umfundo and Robert.  When we reached town, Robert asked him to accompany them to Umbilo.  We caught the bus from Pine Street terminal and Robert and I were sitting on the back seat, Umfundo was seated in front of us."
Do you see that?

MFUNDI SEYISI: Yes I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now how do you connect that with what you say on page 65, paragraph 3 as referred to by my learned friend?

MFUNDI SEYISI: I've already explained that I made or we made some statements just to get the matter over and done with, we were not necessarily telling the truth.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And what follows Mr Chairman and Members of the Committee is not a question, I'm through with questioning but I just want to put it to him that one of the victims was in the bus, is in the hall right now and he has sent me a note indicating that his eyesight has been effected but more important that he says:  "I forgive them as I am a Christian, I escaped death by the grace of God."  He wanted this to be on record.  Thank you Mr Chairman, that is all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Mpshe and also thank you to the victim who put the note forward.
	Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson, just a few points just to clarity, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Seyisi, am I correct to say that with regard to the statement you made to the police is that the statement you made to the police you made it with the intention that you did not want anything to be - you didn't want to be associated with the incident?

MFUNDI SEYISI: Yes that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Secondly Mr Seyisi, am I correct to say or correct me if I'm wrong, did you have any knowledge in the use of limpet mines?

MFUNDI SEYISI: I had no knowledge.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you know how was it going to be planted at the police station?

MFUNDI SEYISI: I do not.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee why did you accompany this person because it's clear that there was no part - you were not going to take any part in the planting of this limpet mine?

MFUNDI SEYISI: At the time that I said I knew Robert as a member of APLA and myself being a member of PASO, we had to help each other with any operations that we had to undertake because it was our principle to help members of the APLA in whatever operation as long as it was in the furtherance of our respective political organisations so that we could gain liberation as a nation.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.
	Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes Mr Chairperson, just one question.
	Mr Seyisi, in what way were you going to help Robert, what role were you going to play?

MFUNDI SEYISI: As a person who did not have any experience, I expected him to specify and tell me as to how I could help in the operation.  He had to specifically tell me or instruct me.

MR SIBANYONI: Did he ask you to accompany him and mention that you were going to Umbilo Police Station?

MFUNDI SEYISI: He said to us we should go to Umbilo Police Station.  He told me during the morning of that day of the occurrence, he also told me that he was going to plant the limpet mine, as to how I have no knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sibanyoni.  Mr Lax do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.
	You said that "he said to us we should go to Umbilo."  Who is "us"?

MFUNDI SEYISI: Myself and Xolani Cuba.

MR LAX: Where was that?

MFUNDI SEYISI: We were in Red Hill.

MR LAX: Was that before or after he showed you the limpet mine?

MFUNDI SEYISI: After showing us the limpet mine.

MR LAX: So he showed both of you the limpet mine?  You said after showing "us" the limpet mine?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I think it's in the application after he said shown "him" the limpet mine, not "them".

MR LAX: The interpretation we got was after showing "us" the limpet mine.