Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1998-01-28

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Do I have to put the name of an alleged informer on the table here where that person in future might be jeopardised Mr Chairman?  I have personally got a problem with that.

MR VALLY: You can write it down, we will not disclose it publicly at this stage until we properly investigate it.

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Might I just as regards this particular informer mention that I was not involved in the recruitment or the placing of this person, it only came to my attention on the afternoon after Fanie Pretorius was killed, Mr Chairman.

MR VALLY: Mr de Jager, the whole performance just now about not mentioning the name was very strange.  Have you been following the press, specifically this hearing?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Yes, I certainly have.

MR VALLY: Are you aware that Mr Jerry Richardson had said in public that he was a paid informer of the Security Branch?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: I have read it in the media, yes.

MR VALLY: And now you say you don't want to mention his name, and you write it down on a piece of paper and we close it and you pass it to me.  Are you saying you know no other source that was placed in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's household?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: No other source, whatsoever.

MR VALLY: Are you saying that Mr Coetzee was lying?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: In what sense Mr Chair?

MR VALLY: You have a unit set up specifically to plant informants and get information and you tell me you know of no single source except for Jerry Richardson which is already public knowledge which was placed in the Madikizela-Mandela household or close to her?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: In my time in Soweto Mr Chair, no other source that I bore personal knowledge of, was successfully recruited and or infiltrated or penetrated the Mandela household, sir.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of a  number of illegal activities centring around the Mandela United Football Club?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: To a certain extent, yes Mr Chair.

MR VALLY: Did you not then try and place informants in the Mandela United Football Club so as to get to the bottom of these illegal activities?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Mr Chairman, during these activities the division in Soweto was such that the Mandela household fell amongst the responsibilities of a unit which was overseen by Colonel Claassen and the unit that pertinently dealt with matters pertaining to the ANC in broad terms and also the Mandela household, was run by Mr Louis Watermeyer, who is here sir.

MR VALLY: Mr de Jager, there seems to have been an incredible lack of co-ordination within the Security Branch and sometimes even within the same unit.  I put it to you sir, that you and Mr Coetzee are continuing your disinformation on this issue of informers within the Madikizela-Mandela household and within the Mandela United Football Club, what is your response to that?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Mr Chairman, I deny that implicitly.  What I might just mention here is that certain activities did come to my attention within the context of early morning meetings which we had in the office regularly, of Brigadier Coetzee, where section group heads and sections heads would then put certain information on the table, and also the transcriptions which were done by the unit run by Colonel Bosman, were also then mentioned from time to time, and anything relevant to any of us around that table, was placed on that table there.
 But handling a source, per se in the Mandela household, I am sorry Mr Chairman, I cannot help the Committee there.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of any source besides Jerry Richardson in relationship to the Mandela United Football Club?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Mr Chairman, if I can put it in very broad terms, I think I did say that from time to time from numerous other sources, what happened is that obviously we did have sources in many organisations, where bits and pieces of hearsay were occasionally gleaned as regards what happened at the Mandela home, but not to the extent where a source per se was in the household to give information or intelligence, whatever one would like to call it here, sir.

MR VALLY: In terms of the morning briefings that you were all party to, what activities were you aware of that had taken place at the Mandela United Football Club, during the Mandela United Football Club activities or at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's household?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Mr Chairman, might I point out please sir, it is ten years ago.  I do not remember specifics any more.  What I do remember, my memory was refreshed just now by Mr Vally that apparently they started off as a group that broke away from SYCO.  Yes, I can now remember that, but specific and pertinent activities such as were eventually revealed in the media subsequent to my departure from Soweto in December 1988, I have no personal knowledge of.
 Stompie Seipei broke in the media and press after I had left Soweto, thank you.

MR VALLY: Would your unit have been aware of the controversy surrounding the abduction of the four youths including Stompie Seipei from the Methodist Manse by virtue of your monitoring of the telephone?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: It could in all probability have been put on the table at a morning meeting, if as I have read I think in the documentation which I have perused in the last few days, it was apparently picked up due to technical, that might have been put on the table at a morning meeting, but I cannot implicitly here say yes, I was aware.

MR VALLY: And if this was put on the table by virtue of the monitoring, why did the police not take pro-active steps to rescue these young people from the Madikizela-Mandela household?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Mr Chairman, I cannot answer that question.  The investigation of criminal activities, dockets, etc, were not my prerogative and or my task.  And that particular question I cannot answer sir.

MR VALLY: Was your task not ultimately the saving of lives and the prevention of crime from taking place?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Most certainly sir, but I was not the Commanding Officer to make decisions as to what action should be taken in this particular regard as I pointed out the area and the Mandela household which that entailed, was not in my particular responsibility at that point in time.

MR VALLY: And who had responsibility for this?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: One would have to find out sir, if indeed this was put on the table, and who were there that particular morning and one would have to speak to those personal individuals personally to find out what if any action was taken at all.
 I cannot bring it to mind on a particular morning, I said it might have happened.

MR VALLY: There have been various allegations about various individuals who were in the Mandela household and they were accused of being informers.  Do you know of Mr Themba Mabotha?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: No sir, I do not.

MR VALLY: Do you know of Mr Katiza Cebekhulu?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: What I gleaned in the media afterwards, yes sir.

MR VALLY: At the time that you were in Soweto, were you aware of allegations that he was an informer?

LODEWYK DE JAGER: Not to my knowledge, no.

MR VALLY: So, you only found out subsequently about Jerry Richardson, an issue which we did not get from the police?  You can't tell us about any informer in the Mandela United Football Club, yet it was your department that was primarily responsible for the placing and the training of informers in Soweto?