Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-18

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, would you care to introduce us to the lady who is sitting next to the witness?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, she's from the TRC, she's not with us.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay.  Yes, very well.
	Ms Molete, may I remind you that you're still under oath.  Hopefully I'm reminding you for the last time.

MIRIAM MOLETE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Lowies?

MR LOWIES: (Cont)
	Ms Molete, in your mind, does a Hippo and a Koyoco one and the same thing?

MS M MOLETE: I do not know, I only know of the Hippo.

MR LOWIES: In your mind is a Hippo and a Casspir one and the same thing?

MS M MOLETE: I say I do not know, I only know that it is called a Hippo.

MR LOWIES: Did anybody board the Hippo, get onto the Hippo on that night of the incident?

MS M MOLETE: I do not know, Sir.

MR LOWIES: Did you see whether anybody loaded anything onto the Hippo?

MS M MOLETE: I do not know, Sir.

MR LOWIES: According to you, was this Hippo a Hippo belonging to the police or the army?

MS M MOLETE: I do not know the police or the soldiers' Hippo, I only know a Hippo.

MR LOWIES: Now was there sufficient place for this Hippo to drive in Slovo Park between the shacks?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, she never testified that the Hippo was driving in Slovo Park between the shacks.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want this witness to tell us that the Hippo that she saw drove through Slovo Park?

MS M MOLETE: No, I would just like to know whether it was possible.

CHAIRPERSON: But you are asking her for an opinion, is it?

MR LOWIES: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why, why is it relevant?

MR LOWIES: As to the width of the streets.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, okay.  I understand.

MR LOWIES: What is your answer?

MS M MOLETE: There were no streets in Slovo Park, the Hippo moved along Bakwena Street.

MR LOWIES: Now the people with the Hippo, were they running or just walking normally?

MS M MOLETE: They were in front of the Hippo and they seemed to be walking hastily.

MR LOWIES: The two white people that you saw with the camouflage uniform, overalls, camouflage overalls, which part of their faces did you see?  At what angle were you looking?

MS M MOLETE: I was looking towards the door.  Their faces were not covered.

MR LOWIES: No, did you see them from the side - sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: I think what counsel wants to find out is this, were you looking at their faces from the side or from the front?

MS M MOLETE: I was looking at them directly.  They were standing at the door and I had thrown myself on the floor and I looked directly at them.

MR LOWIES: ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker is off record.

MR LOWIES: Did you glance at them whilst you were on the floor, or did you have a good look at them?

MS M MOLETE: I had thrown myself on the floor.  I had not fainted, I looked at them thoroughly.

MR LOWIES: Now were you not hiding your face whilst on the floor?

MS M MOLETE: No.

MR LOWIES: Now had the lamp, the paraffin lamp on your version, which was there been out, would you still have been able to see these ...(intervention)

MR BERGER: Chairperson, this question has been asked and answered.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think Mr Berger is right.

MR LOWIES: I dispute that.  What has been asked was regarding the person with the balaclava, not regarding these two people.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, my colleague Mr Lax indicates to me that Mr Lowies is right.

MR BERGER: I can't dispute that.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, very well.

MR LOWIES: Had the lamp been out, would you have been able to see the faces of the two chaps with the camouflage overalls?

MS M MOLETE: Yes, I would see them.

MR LOWIES: Why, where were they in relation to the light?

MS M MOLETE: They were outside at the door.  The apollo light was switched on and there was moonlight.

MR LOWIES: Now what provided the light for you to see, the apollo light, the moonlight and the lamp or just the apollo light and the moonlight?  Did you see these two?

MS M MOLETE: There was a greater light and there was moonlight and the door was broken down.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I think the witness said apollo light, which wasn't interpreted.

INTERPRETER: I did mention apollo light, Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: No, no, the second time around, I'm sorry, when it came
"There was greater light, there was ..."

CHAIRPERSON: What I have ... let me just make sure.  What I have here
"There was moonlight, apollo light and the door to the house had been broken down."
Right?

MR LAX: What he said was
"There was greater light, moonlight and the door was broken down."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Okay, so ...

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Translator, it came across - maybe you can just explain what was meant by that, but the answers seem to be
"There was greater light, moonlight and the door was broken down."
What is meant by greater light, I've no - we were a bit puzzled.

INTERPRETER: Ms Molete stated the apollo light was switched on, which is what I said, and that there was moonlight and then she further on stated that there was greater light for her to can see because the door was broken down.

MR LAX: Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR LOWIES: Chair, have I been 10 minutes?
	I just want to put to you finally then, Mrs Molete, that it is disputed that there were any white there and that there was a Hippo as you say.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your comment, Ma'am?  You see what Mr Lowies has put to you is that the applicants deny that there were any white men during the attacks, what do you say to that?

MS M MOLETE: There were white people present.  Even when I was in Pretoria and Mr Strydom had summoned us, Mr Strydom himself stated that the police and the white person were present and he bought barrels for us and gave us R150 and stated to us that we must not disclose this.

MR LOWIES: Are you saying my colleague, Strydom, bribed you with R150 to say there were no police?

MS M MOLETE: That is correct, he gave us R150.  Some of them are here when he had called us there and we were telling him our statement as he called us to meet him.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Ma'am, would you please slowly just repeat what you have said.  You said Mr Strydom knew that there were police and white men during the attack?

MS M MOLETE: When he called us to Pretoria he said the white persons and the police do not deny that they were present.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, just hold on.  Yes?

MS M MOLETE: But today they have disowned those people.  And sent us to buy a Kentucky barrel for us.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, wait a minute, you've said that
"When he called us to Pretoria he said that the white men and the police do not deny that they were present."

MS M MOLETE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Continue from there, yes?

MS M MOLETE: From there at lunchtime he said some of us should go and buy a Kentucky barrel.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS M MOLETE: When we were to leave he gave us each R150.

CHAIRPERSON: How many of you were there?

MS M MOLETE: Some of them are not here.

CHAIRPERSON: How many approximately were there?

MS M MOLETE: I remember seven of us.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you told why you were given this R150?

MS M MOLETE: No, he didn't state a reason, he said we must leave, those are our pocket monies.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought initially you told us you were given this money, R150, so that you should not disclose that the white men and the police were present during the attack.

MS M MOLETE: As he explained, I do not deny, he had our statements that the police were present and the white persons, but the white persons have disowned them today.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't follow what you are saying now, just start afresh.

MS M MOLETE: Mr Strydom, as he called us to Pretoria, he said to us he does not deny that these people say the police and the white men were there.