Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-04

ADV MEMANI: Mr Loots, Mr Ngo told us that what occured at that office was that the various establishments exchanged information and that is more sensible than what you are trying to suggest that only the intelligence - only the security branch supplied information.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: You will remember that I have testified before you Mr Chair, that I said that they not incidentally got information and gave it to us, it is on record that information was transferred but the primary task of the JOC was not to give us information, we gave them information to help unit 19 and the SADF who were repsonsible for prevention of crime, that's what I'm saying.

ADV MEMANI: And during 1985 '86 there was a particular crime that was going on which was a priority crime, that is political activity which was aimed against the National Party Government.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: I hear what you are syaing.

ADV MEMANI: And that priority crime would require that people be regularly present at that office of the JOC.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: There were people throughout, there were people there 24 hours a day in the JOC office.  It was manned every second of every day of every week.

ADV MEMANI: And in contrast to you, Ngo is able to tell us that the people who represented security branch there were Selahla, himself and Bokaba.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Mr Chair, they never represented JOC, they worked for me, how could they work for the JOC?  They were under my control, under my command, under my discipline, not under that of the JOC, JOC didn't have any say over them.  The JOC could not give them any orders.

ADV MEMANI: Now, ...[intervention]

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I think or rather the impression I got was that Mr Ngo was saying that they participated in GOS, not so much that they were under the command of GOS.

ADV MEMANI: That is correct, that is what I put to the witness Mr Chairman.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Represent perhaps, in the sense of transferring information.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I don't know if I understand you correctly, he has testified that they participated.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: No, not at any stage.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: But Colonel, you have just said that even Bokaba could attend the JOC.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: No, he could transfer the information.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He had to be there in order to transfer information?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: Yes, but he was not there under their command on a permanent basis, that's what I'm trying to tell you.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That's not what I'm telling you.

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That's - if I misled you, that was not the purpose or my goal, then I apologise.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Is it so that Bokaba at some times participated, took part in JOC meetings in the sense that he gave them information?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That might be possible Mr Chair, that is possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was the JOC?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: It was at the police offices in Mamelodi.

CHAIRPERSON: The GOS offices?

PHILLIPUS JOHANNES CORNELIUS LOOTS: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: It's a convenient time Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll ajourn till 9.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, before you adjourn, could you give me one minute please Mr Chairman?  Mr Chairman, I was wondering whether the Committee might consider adjourning tomorrow at 1 o'clock.  There are some of us Mr Chairman, who have been here all week and who do have some problems which we have to attend to elsewhere at our home bases.
	Mr Chairman, may I motivate it this way, although we started slowly this week, we did seem to make up some time and my colleagues assure me that if you allow them this weekend to play they will later be prepared to pay by making up time next week if necessary Mr Chairman.  I would earnestly ask you whether you could give an indication whether your Committee would be prepared to adjourn at 1 o'clock tomorrow to allow us to go home for the weekend and take care of other pressing maters.

CHAIRPERSON: Any of you other gentlemen wish to say anything in that regard?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, as far as we are concerned, we should work until late unless there's a - you know, other people don't want to work.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Memani it was a pity you didn't have the same attitude on Monday.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I think apart from the fact that Monday was wasted, we have managed to get through a certain amount of work this week and if the gentlemen will take advantage of the time to go through the papers and what have you and bring them up to date so that we can get cracking, we should be prepared to adjourn at some time,  I'm not binding us to 1 o'clock - when we reach a suitable stage around there.
	I've been asked to raise one other matter please that those of you who feel the necessity to smoke, should not merely go into the foyer but are requested to go outside the building on one or other side.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS