Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-04

CHAIRPERSON: This is a material bag, made out of material, or is it plastic or leather?

MR RAMALIGELA: It is just made out of cotton.  It is just an ordinary cotton - made out of cotton.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Meyer?

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR RAMALIGELA: Furthermore, the very same Mr Posiwa, I used an electricity shock, which shocked him on his ears and then I made  winding, sort of like winding it.  Well, he then requested that I should really leave him  because he was going to say the truth.

MR MEYER: I just want you to explain in a bit more detail about how this shock treatment was done.  Were the electrodes attached to which parts of his body were they attached and how exactly then did you then apply the electricity to his body?

MR RAMALIGELA: It was attached to the ears and is just like a pegs form, two pegs, which are attached to the ears, and then I will really wind.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were doing this were the other members of the investigation team present, some or all of them?  Or were you alone, one on one, just you and Mr Posiwa?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, I was doing that with Mr Managa and Mr Nesamari.  There were three.

MR MEYER: Before you continue with any of the other victims, can you remember clearly how often these assaults and torture methods took place and when you applied these methods to which of the victims, or not?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, I can't really recall as to how often.  However, with regard to particular people, especially when we are looking for absolute truth, it will also depend on what the person was saying, we will really insist kicking the person, doing all sorts of things.

CHAIRPERSON: I notice, Director if you take a look at page 63 of your documents, paragraph 35 particularly of your application, when you're describing what you did to the various victims.  Referring to Mr Posiwa, you say you slapped him with open hands, punched him with fists, he was also kicked, mostly I made him stand up for long periods, and he was also ordered to do frog-jumps', but you make no mention of the electric shock method.  Is there any reason for that omission, or can you explain the omission?

MR RAMALIGELA: With regard to ... It is true I wrote it the way it was, but when it comes to electric shock, it just slipped my mind.  I just don't want to leave anything, I want to say everything that I did.

ADV BOSMAN: How about the water over the head, that's also not mentioned in 35?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well, that is why I am admitting that I didn't say that I could have forgotten that.  However, as it happened a long time ago, I just want to say everything in detail as to every person was involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you just saying that the admission is just because at the time of making the statement you didn't recall it and you have recalled it subsequently?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes, I recall subsequently.

MR MEYER: Thank you Director.  The next person you dealt with then is Mr Mahamba.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Meyer, may I interpose?  Are you now sure over having taken some time to think about this incident?  You have now recollected and your recollection is much better.....
(Problems with the sound system)

CHAIRPERSON: I think if we could just have a five-minutes adjournment, and I've also had a request from someone to have an adjournment.  If they could just take a look at the sound system.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: .... Khampepe when we adjourned was putting something to the witness or asking a question of the witness.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Ramaligela,  have I pronounced it properly?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I want to take it that you have had time to recollect the events properly, pertinently with regard to the assault on Mr Posiwa?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The assault that you omitted in your written application you've now been able to cover when you give your viva voce evidence, shortly before we adjourned, am I correct in assuming so?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What I want to find out is what would be your response if evidence was to surface through Ms Mtanga, or that you might have used electrodes not only on the earlobes of Mr Posiwa, but also on his private parts, would you dispute that?

MR RAMALIGELA: There in the private parts, I don't agree, what I know that I used them, I used electricity in the ears and in the toes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are saying the ears and the toes?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes, in the toes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: See you had not mentioned the toes before.  You only made mention of the earlobes.  It is important for us to know the ... (Mr Ramaligela interjects) ... Just wait for me to finish. It is important for us - this is the important aspect of your evidence.  It is important for us to know exactly how you assaulted Mr Posiwa for you to be able to satisfy the requirement of full disclosure.
	So, you are now saying you also used electrodes on the toes as well but not on his private parts?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you at any stage put irons on his hands, thereby hand-cuffing him during the application of the bag method?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.  I thought I'm still continuing to explain what I did in Mr Posiwa. I've not yet finished.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Oh, the reason why I was asking this was because I thought you were now proceeding to give an explanation on Mr Poswana.  That's what Mr Meyer was about to ask you.  That's when I requested for an interposition.  If that is so then, I may have made a mistake and I will allow you to proceed to give a full explanation on how you assaulted Mr Posiwa.

MR RAMALIGELA: I thank you.  As I continue, this Mr Posiwa, I hand-cuffed him by iron in the hand and in the legs and I insert a broom-stick with two table, others in the front and then we hold it together and then we put him on top of the table.
?

<UNKNOWN>: Is that the so-called helicopter method.

MR RAMALIGELA: I'm not sure of the name. It is some of the things that we've used, but I don't know it's name.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When you say you inserted a broom-stick, where did you insert it?

MR RAMALIGELA: Between the hands and the legs where we have hand cuffed with irons, and then we insert the broom-stick inside.
	We then hang him pouring water on his head so that he can tell the truth of what we were searching for.  He then said to me he understands, he wants to tell me the truth.  Is then that we take him down and take him to Mr Ramushwana to say this man is now prepared to tell the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you at any stage ask him or instruct him to say things that you wanted him to say?  In other words to make a statement that is more your statement, or partly your statement rather than his own statement?

MR RAMALIGELA: I don't remember that incident where I asked him to go and tell Mr Ramushwana this or that, but what was investigating was for him to tell what he did, and I didn't advise him to say anything.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now over a period of how long did this torture as you have now explained continue?

MR RAMALIGELA: It might have took, but normally I didn't check the watch, but his assault should have taken about two-and-a-half hours.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So, was this done in one day, or when you say two-and-a-half hours you are actually adding up all the many minutes in the many days that the assault or torture took place?

MR RAMALIGELA: In Mr Posiwa, we questioned him for about two days.  In everyday, in each day there could be two-and-a-half hours.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes you may continue.

MR RAMALIGELA: What he talked with Mr Ramushwana I didn't know.  I can only continue with Mr Poswana.

MR MEYER: Before you do that Director, not only with regard to Mr Posiwa, the detainees that were arrested and detained, were they detained in one place all the time or were they moved around?