Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-17

MR VISSER: Mr Botha and or Mr Du Preez, who are the two people who know the identities of the informers, should in the company of my attorney, Mr Wagener, attempt to arrange for a meeting with them.
	That suggestion has found general favour Mr Chairman, with my clients.  What we would suggest should be done is the following, that Mr Botha be given a reasonable time in order to set up a meeting.  He would suggest that a month would be a reasonable time.
	Mr Chairman, what is suggested is that depending on whether the two gentlemen in question would be prepared to reveal their own identities to Mr Wagener and whether they would be prepared to meet with him at all, and assuming that the latter comes to pass, it is probable Mr Chairman, that the two gentlemen in question will probably disguise themselves from Mr Wagener.  It is something which we foresee might happen.
	But in the hope that such a meeting can be laid on, it was suggested that what Mr Wagener would do, would be to inform them of the amnesty application, to further inform them that they might be implicated as accomplices and further to inform them that the Committee would like to hear anything which they may wish to add, if they so wish and then Mr Chairman, to make notes of their replies in that regard, and to feed that back to the Chairman of this Committee.
	We would also like to say Mr Chairman, that if there are any directions which you might wish to make as to what Mr Wagener should do at that meeting, assuming that it comes to pass, that we would appreciate receiving some indications from you and Wagener would then inform them or ask them about that.
	Lastly Mr Chairman, we thought that Mr Wagener must make it clear that it would be in their interest if they so wished, to consult an attorney or an Advocate of their choice, if they should wish to make any representations to this Committee, with or without disclosing their own identities.
	That is about as far as we have come at this stage Mr Chairman, subject to what you might want to add.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we should place on record that the impasse that has arose, was that Colonel Botha indicated that he was not prepared to disclose the identity of these people, or where they might be found.  I would suggest having listened to what you have to say, that he doesn't need a month, that we should reduce the period for Mr Botha to make contact with these people, to tell them that they may be implicated parties in this hearing, tell them what the subject of the hearing is about, and then inform them that he can arrange a meeting with Mr Wagener, who will advise them as to their legal position and their rights.
	Inform them first, not wait a month to inform them.  If he inform them within two weeks of that there is an amnesty hearing, that they may be implicated parties in it, and that if they wish, he can arrange a meeting with Mr Wagener who can explain to them fully their legal rights position, and if they wish to make any representations or send any messages through Mr Wagener, if he is prepared to act as a conduit pipe, he can do that.

MR VISSER: Yes Mr Chairman, it is rather a question of whether they will trust Mr Wagener, than Mr Wagener being prepared to do it.  He is obviously prepared to do it.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Colonel Botha should also indicate to them that they are at perfect liberty to consult an attorney of their own choice, not wait to see Mr Wagener.
	To furnish them (a) with Mr Wagener's address and (b) with the address of the Committee, where they can be contacted.  They have the choice that they can choose to go their own way, do nothing, or contact us.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, we find that agreeable with respect, may I then add that on the basis that Botha is given two weeks to contact them, that there should be a report back at that stage or soon thereafter, as what he has accomplished in anticipation of a meeting to be arranged with Wagener as we suggested, later on.  That is imminently reasonable Mr Chairman, I believe that is acceptable.

CHAIRPERSON: It would seem that is as far as we can go at the moment, Mr Ngubane.  Do you have anything further you can suggest?

MR NGUBANE: No, nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior?

ADV PRIOR: Well, it seems that we are in a catch 22 situation, if Mr Botha is under no circumstances going to divulge the identity, obviously this process that has been discussed is probably the only alternative, except that I am just cautious or I am just sensitive to the perception that might be created, that these persons being interviewed by Mr Wagener, that they are going to be disguised, or their identities are going to be withheld from himself, possibly to satisfy that perception, it may well arise to have someone with Mr Wagener, an objective person.

MR VISSER: That has been discussed, and it is totally unacceptable Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: That means of course that we will reserve our decision, our ruling on the matter that was argued before us today in that this may supply vital evidence if they do elect to come, it may make the whole matter pointless.

MR VISSER: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We reserve our decision on the application by Mr Ngubane that Mr Botha should divulge the identity of the two persons who were with them in Manzini when Ms Ndwandwe was kidnapped.

MR NGUBANE: As the Chairman pleases.