Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-06-28

MR VAN RENSBURG: No Sir, the questions were mainly aimed at the identity of the persons who bombed the police station, is that correct?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes.  The idea was to find out as to who bombed the police station and where they were.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now, can you please tell us your personal feelings at the time.  Did you agree with such methods of interrogation?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Personally, at the time, it was necessary for them to be beaten, at the same time being asked as to who bombed the police station.

CHAIRPERSON: And why do you say it was necessary for them to be beaten?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Because I used to believe that if they were not beaten, they wouldn't really confess as to who were the people who bombed the police station because at the time, it was a measure event.  No one will just say he or she had bombed the police station if they hadn't done so.

CHAIRPERSON: So, I take it from what you've said now that your answer to the question put to you by Mr Van Rensburg which was 'Did you agree with the methods used?' is your answer that you did agree with the methods used?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Well, at the time, there was nothing I could do whether I will agree or not.  I had to follow the course of the day or assault them in a similar fashion.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, would you say that your opinion regarding this and the way that suspects should be interrogated has changed since then?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Could you repeat the question please for me?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Would you say that your attitude - I'll rephrase the question a little bit to make it easier.  Would you say that your attitude as to how suspects should be interrogated, including assault, has changed since 1981?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes, it has since changed.

MR VAN RENSBURG: In what way?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Because I can now realise that it was terribly wrong and it was not fair for me to have been doing that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Were you ever alone in the room when you assaulted these four persons that you have testified about?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: No, there was no such a time where I was personally and physically alone in the room with them.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Were any of the persons ever seriously injured by yourself during these assaults?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: There was no person who was physically seriously injured at the time.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Would you say that any of the persons needed medical attention during or after these sessions with the shock instrument and the wet bag?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes, sometimes they were taken for medical attention but, during those days even if they were so assaulted, it was difficult for them to go for medical attention.

CHAIRPERSON: We're talking about these particular victims, Mr Chikororo, Phosiwa, Phoshwana, Mahumela?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I'm also referring to them.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they or were they not taken for medical treatment that you know of?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I can't recall but I don't remember that they were taken to the hospital, in my knowledge.  Maybe they were taken without my knowledge but I don't know anything about that.  They might have gone there but I didn't see that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think you still haven't answered the question pertinently.  The question put to you is whether anyone needed any medical attention pursuant to his assault whilst you were present.

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes.  I think Mr Chikororo was needing medical attention referring to the way he was beaten, he should have taken to the hospital.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Are you referring to the beating by yourself or, what beating specifically?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: What I've seen is that he was injured, his mouth was red with blood.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Do you think that any of the persons suffered permanent disability because of this assault in which you had been involved?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: No.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you perhaps describe the relationship, if any, that you have today with these victims and specifically the four that you've mentioned, that you've assaulted?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I don't have any enmity since it happened.  We used to meet and we greet each other and we share jokes together.  And then to me and them it's over, it was just a thing of the old days.

MR VAN RENSBURG: And do you have anything specifically to tell them today regarding your actions?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Please proceed.

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: To the people I have assaulted, people like Mr Chikororo, Mr Phosiwa, Mr Managa and Mr Mahumela, I feel very sorry that why I did participate in assaulting them.  And then I ask for forgiveness, even to their families, relatives although some of them I have already asked for forgiveness, I'm repeating it today in front of the people to say that I participated - because I participated.  With those words I'm saying forgive me please.  That was for the past, let us now start with new life in the new South Africa.  I thank you.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Is there anything you want to add to your evidence before this hearing?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: There is nothing new I want to add.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, there are no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Van Rensburg.  Mr Meyer, do you have any questions you'd like to ask this applicant, Mr Netshivale?

MR MEYER: Just a few questions, Mr Chairman, not many.

MR MEYER: Mr Netshivale, you testified in your evidence now that you were invited to assist the other interrogators during the assault, is that correct?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes, it's correct.

MR MEYER: Is it also correct that you, at that stage, you were a constable and you were one of the junior members of the Security Branch?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes, it's true.

MR MEYER: And is it also correct that the way that things used to be done was that the junior members would participate in the interrogations in general?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: You may repeat your question.

MR MEYER: The normal practice at that stage was that junior members could participate in the interrogations as they pleased basically.

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: No, we were normally invited.  We were invited to go and participate.

MR MEYER: So, you were not instructed by your senior officers and told by them specifically 'I want you to give this suspect five slaps,' what would happen is that you would be asked to assist during the interrogations, is that correct?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Could you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, is it correct that you were not instructed to specifically assault a person but you were merely invited to assist in the interrogation?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: I was instructed to assault.

MR MEYER: Then why did you say earlier that you were invited?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Then we were invited, maybe from my office and then I was instructed to assault or to hold.  You were first called and then instructed to do what to do.

MR MEYER: Yes, but if you were instructed you were instructed to assist?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Sometimes we were instructed to hold, or we were instructed to assault and then I assaulted.

CHAIRPERSON: So Mr Netshivale, are you saying that the only reason why you assaulted those people who you told us you assaulted was because you were instructed to do so?  You never assaulted any of those persons on your volition?

AZWIFARWI CARLSON NETSHIVALE: Yes.  Because if it was not allowed, so it was allowed, that is why I was instructed to assault then I assaulted.