Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR SEMENYA: Did you go to any South African Police to say I know that Vincent was killed because of the tension he had with Mrs Mandela?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: No, I never went anywhere.

MR SEMENYA: You didn't do that?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: It's very difficult to answer your question because I don't know whether you are referring to before I left the country or after I came back.

MR SEMENYA: Before you left, did you go and say I know Vincent was killed because of his tension with Mrs Mandela?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: No, I couldn't have done that, I couldn't have gone to the police.

MR SEMENYA: ... have is that you have never had discussions with Mrs Mandela.  In fact, she is surprised to see you today. What's your response?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: These are just blue lies. She even knows my home.  She knows where I stay, where I come from.

MR SEMENYA: So the sum total of what you are telling us that, according to Moshoshove, you would have had a tension
[Tape 1 ends]

THAMI HLATSWAYO: What are you referring to?

MR SEMENYA: Moshoshove's death, or Vincent's death, is because he had a tension with Mrs Mandela.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, I would say that.

MR SEMENYA: Does that exclude any other basis why he would have been killed on that particular day?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Your question is not clear because you are not telling me as to what the other reasons are.  You have referred to Winnie as being the reason, but the other reasons you are not coming clear.

MR SEMENYA: It's just a guesswork on your part, right?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: No, I am not guessing, I am talking about things that happened and things that I saw.

MR SEMENYA: You were told something, is that right?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: That is correct, some of the things were told to me by Mshoshovu.

MR SEMENYA: Is that correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SEMENYA: Is that he was hit by a motor vehicle because of his tension with Mrs Mandela, is that correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: No, that I would not exclude.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, we would suggest it would be sufficient at this point with this particular witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Any questions from the panel here.  Yasmin Sooka.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Hlatswayo, I'd just like to clear up one issue with you.  In your oral evidence you have talked about Peter Dube, but in your written statement you talk about Peter Dhlamini.  Are Peter Dube and Peter Dhlamini one and the same person?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: If I remember very well, Dhlamini and Dube are one and the same person, it's Peter Dhlamini but he comes from Dube location.  I think that's where the mistake is.

YASMINE SOOKA: You talked about tension and a feud between Vincent Sefako and Mrs Mandela, would that possibly - is your view, or was it Vincent's view, that the feud could have been because people deserted to Mrs Mandela rather than staying with Vincent's unit?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I don't get you, when you say deserted what do you mean, who deserted who?

YASMINE SOOKA: You talked about two of the members of your unit deserting or leaving to be with Mrs Mandela under her command.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: No, they were not being (no recording on this section) .... to Winnie Mandela's camp.

YASMINE SOOKA: Did that give rise to any tension?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: (no audible reply)

CHAIRPERSON: Faizel.

DR RANDERA: Thami, I just have three questions.  The first one is that, did you ......

CHAIRPERSON: I am asking Faizel Randera to put his question.

DR RANDERA: Thami, three brief questions.  The first one is, did you know Mrs Mandela, had you spoken to her, had you met with her prior - (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.  If you don't want to keep order, please go and make the noise outside.  Once I say Order! I don't want to keep repeating it, please.  Thank you very much.

DR RANDERA: Okay, I am going to repeat my question.  Did you know Mrs Madikizela Mandela prior to the killing of your commander or was that the first time you actually met with her and spoke to her?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: It was my first time, sir.

DR RANDERA: (microphone not on)

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

DR RANDERA: We have been told that he was knocked down by a car, there's a possibility of him being shot in the head. Was there ever a funeral for him and did his family know what he died of?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I was away by then, sir.  I was - (intervention)

DR RANDERA: But you came back in 1992.  You didn't go and see the family?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I never knew the family, sir.

DR RANDERA: Okay, my last question is on what you said when you went to Lusaka.  You said you reported the incident to somebody in Lusaka.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

DR RANDERA: Here was a commander of MK who had been killed in very strange circumstances. Was there an inquiry conducted by the ANC?  Who did you report to?  And did you ever receive any feedback?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I reported the matter, I think it was my - three days after my arrival at Charleston in Zambia, then my first one - the first person to ask me about the incident it was, I forgot now, he was also a chief intelligence, I've forgotten the name but I will remember it very soon.  The second one, it was Chris Hani.

DR RANDERA: Were you ever given any feedback by either Chris Hani or the Chief of Intelligence?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Not at all, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Alex Boraine.

DR BORAINE: I'd like to ask you if you know if there was ever an inquest into your commander's death or whether there was any cause of death reported, either before you left or since you've come back?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: That's what I want to (indistinct) to find out about, sir.

DR BORAINE: Oh, you came to the TRC to find that out?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Definitely, sir.

DR BORAINE: Okay, and what did you find out?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Actually nothing at all, sir.

DR BORAINE: So you don't know whether he was shot or whether he was killed in an accident or whether he was injured in an accident and then shot?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: What I am sure is that he was knocked down.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very - yes.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, if I may, may we request that if it is possible to obtain at least a post-mortem findings relating to Vincent. It would help whether or not his skull had a bullet wound, and if it didn't we would know the status of this evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Hanif, are you able to say anything about that?

MR VALLY: I will refer it to our Investigative Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  We will try and do that.

MR SEMENYA: Secondly, Chairperson, we would request that the information relevant to the inquest docket of Susan Maripa indicates there was a Makarov.  I am sure that file would indicate that they found spent cartridges of the Makarov, which would tell us whether the witness did fire or not fire during that occasion, and (recording disappears) that background.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Thank you.  Hanif is there any follow-up that you want to put

MR VALLY: I have been advised that there is an inquest docket, Mr Semenya did ask me and I thought there wasn't one.  I have also been advised that that's the only reference to a Makarov pistol in the inquest docket, the page that we have given Mr Semenya, but we will make the whole inquest docket available to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Thank you very much, Thami.  You may stand down.
MR HLATSWAYO EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We call Phumlile Dlamini.  The Deputy Chairperson of the Commission suggests that it might be compassionate to allow those who wish to do so to take off their jackets.  There are some already of course who didn't wait until this permission was given.
 Good morning.  Which language will you be speaking?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for coming.  And Yasmin Sooka will be the Commissioner who will swear you in.