Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-22

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning to you all.  Today is our second day of sitting, hearing applications of Mr Thulani Cele and Roy Cele.  Ms Thabethe, what is the position?

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair, I'm ready to proceed with my cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cele, you are reminded this morning  that you are still under your former oath.  Ms Thabethe is going to put questions to you and you will be required to respond to those questions.

ROY BONGUMUSA CELE: (s.u.o.)

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair and Honourable Members of the Committee.
	Mr Cele, when you were asked yesterday about why you participated, or why were the lady victims beaten up, you said:
"Because they were disturbing public peace"
Do you remember saying that?

MR CELE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Now my question to you with regard to that is, how was this act political, or how was it associated with a political objective?  The act of beating these women.

MR CELE: Please repeat the question.

MS THABETHE: How was the act of beating the females, associated with a political objective?

MR CELE: That act of assaulting the women was associated with that objective because they were disturbing the proceedings, the normal practice of how we proceeded in the area.

MS THABETHE: I don't think I am answered, but I won't labour on that point.  You've also applied for the assault on Dudu Ngcobo, who was also beaten up and eventually killed.  My question to you is, how was the assault on Dudu Ngcobo, associated with a political objective?  How was it political?

MR CELE: That assault was the result of her having brought the persons who were going to disturb the peace in the area.

MS THABETHE: And how was that political?  That's my question. - if at all it was political.

MR CELE: The policy of the organisation was that a person who was responsible for bringing such ...(indistinct) persons who were going to disturb the peace in the area, that person was supposed to be punished.

MS THABETHE: And can you explain how did these people who were brought by Dudu - actually Dudu was one of them, she did not bring them into the area, she was one of them, how was it going to disturb peace in the ANC organisation?

MR CELE: If I remember correctly, it was explained previously that these people were not from this area, the person who was going to point out, or was going to show them around, was Dudu.  Dudu was the person responsible for showing them around that area.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the pointed question, Mr Cele is, how did you know that the people who had come to your area were there to disturb the peace?

MR CELE: As I explained before, if they had come in peace, just to look for those body parts, they would have done so in a proper manner.  Secondly, they were armed, which clearly indicated that they had not come there in peace.

MS THABETHE: I put it to you, Mr Cele, that the people who had come to the area had come for personal reasons and your suspecting that they were coming to disturb peace in the area, or in the ANC, there's nothing political about that.  What is your response to that.

MR CELE: I can their intention was to disturb the peace in the area.  That is, when they were questioned that is what emerged.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose, Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: When you confronted these people, what is it that gave you an indication or an impression that they were there to disturb the peace in your area?  The reason why I'm putting this question to you is because you are saying that subsequent to their questioning, it emerged that they were there to disturb the peace in your area, from the responses they gave to those who were questioning them.  Now apart from what emanated from the enquiry you conducted at the hills, what indication, or what conduct of these people gave you an impression that they were there to disturb the peace in your area?

MR CELE: At the time there was no co-operation between two organisations.  At that time a person from one organisation would not mix freely with others from another organisation.  It would not have been easy for them to work with us or to be able to contact us.  Even the way that they conducted themselves, they were shouting insults.  It's clearly indicated that they did not come in peace.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you believe to have been the political affiliation of these persons?

MR CELE: Before they were questioned?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, before they were questioned.

MR CELE: I believed that they belonged to another organisation, not mine, because in my organisation there was a policy regarding the way you conduct yourself when you come to a different area.

CHAIRPERSON: And this deduction is based solely on the fact that they hurled insults at you?

MR CELE: No, another reason was that they had not come to the house of one of our members, the house that they were in belonged to a person who belonged to another organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that person not your relative as well?

MR CELE: He was.

CHAIRPERSON: And merely because somebody visits somebody who is not a member of your organisation, did that in your mind create an impression that that person therefore belonged to a different organisation than your own?

MR CELE: No, that's not correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Mr Cele a prominent member of the IFP?

MR CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What position did he hold within the IFP organisation in your area?

MR CELE: I am not certain of his position.

CHAIRPERSON: So how do you deduce his prominence, what is it that he does that made him to be a prominent member?

MR CELE: In most cases they held meetings at his house.

CHAIRPERSON: Yet you don't know what position he held within the IFP organisation?

MR CELE: No, I don't, I just know that he was a prominent member.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you often visit your father at his home?

MR CELE: As I explained before, because of political differences it was not easy to meet, to be with each other.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't share a calabash with him?

MR CELE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.
	In your statement, Mr Cele, at paragraph 8, after Dudu Cele(sic) was sjamboked, you say it was decided that Amos Cele's house should be attacked.  And then you proceed to say:
"All the people in the house ran away into different directions and the house was burnt."
My instructions, Mr Cele, are that when you came back from the hill, after Dudu Ngcobo was beaten up, there was nobody in the house except Zodwa Cele, and further that it is not true that you met people who ran away into different directions from their house.  Do you have any comment on that?

MR CELE: Those instructions are not true.

MS THABETHE: Let's come to the death of Amos Cele.  In your affidavit you have stated that there were people who came to your house to attack you and that's how Amos Cele was shot, or you returned shots at the people who had come to attack you.  My instructions, Mr Cele, are that that is not how Amos Cele was killed, in actual fact there were people who came to Amos Cele's house to attack him.  What is your response to that?

MR CELE: That is not correct, it is not true that they came to his house.  There was no house because it had been burnt.

MS THABETHE: Further Mr Cele, my instructions are that even though his house had been burnt on the 26th, there was one hut which had remained and in which he stayed until he was taken out of it to be killed.  What is your response to that?

MR CELE: There was no hut that was left remaining.

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't it been the evidence of Mr Cele, that Mr Bonny's house for instance, was not burnt down?  You were here listening to Mr Thulani Cele giving evidence before this Committee, and this is the evidence we have.  So are you suggesting that you burnt all the houses?