Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-28

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: Chairperson, not between myself and the investigators but certainly Superintendent Moodley mentioned on a number of occasions to me that it is very difficult for him as an investigating officer to rely on the evidence of Mr Cebekhulu  that stage.  At one stage I must inform the Commission, Superintendent Moodley was in London and we were communicating by telephone.
 Even at that stage it was very difficult to rely on the evidence of Mr Cebekhulu as an investigating officer because it was quite clear that he was making various statements at various stages.  That was never discussed and I think that type of question I would like to propose, must be reserved for Detective Moodley.

MR PIGOU: Thank you.  In a similar vein and you may want to refer me back to Superintendent Moodley as well, was any consideration given in looking into the whereabouts of the three co-accused in Mrs Mandela's trial who vanished out of the country?  The fourth being Gatiza - that being Jabu Sithole who has been sitting here during the course of this week, Gift Mabulani and Brian Mabuza, has any attempt been made to locate those people to see whether they have come back into the country?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: Chairperson, that is normal practice and I would have expected it from the detectives. As I've mentioned they are well experience and very thorough investigators, so they would at least attempted from their side to identify or to search for those people as either accused in certain cases or maybe as witnesses in other cases.

MR PIGOU: I don't wish to put a halo around the TRC's Investigation Unit Head but if I can put some context on this, 11 investigators looking into four Provinces for 33 years of human rights violations, we are able to bring Mr Sithole to this table - locate and bring him here.  Could you perhaps tell us why - it seems extremely to me that we are able to do that with such limited resources and the SAP are unable to do that?   Could I have your comment on that please?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: I am very pleased to hear that Chairperson, I think what we have to understand about investigations is that you have to have the total support and assistance of the community when you are investigating.  All our breakthrough's are really being done on the basis of partnerships with the community, it the community is not providing the information or intelligence for that matter, you as an investigator is not really in the position to make a breakthrough.
 So I wouldn't say that only on the basis that Mr Sithole was identified and brought forward by the TRC, the investigators haven't done their job but certainly I would like to recommend that that type of question should be posed to them as well.

MR PIGOU: Thank you.  Are you aware whether any - because I'm looking at this whole thing of seeking people out, were you aware of any other attempts perhaps through National Intelligence Agency to try and locate former members of the football club who had subsequently gone to join MK or gone somewhere else, do you know whether any efforts were made in that regard?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: That is quite possible Chairperson, we have an agreement between the other intelligence agencies and that of the South African police service to co-operate, especially around certain investigations.  As a matter of fact we'll task if necessary NIA and SASS to assist the police service as far as certain investigations are concerned, so that is quite possible.

MR PIGOU: And would you be surprised Commission Fivaz, it information had been received from the National Intelligence Agency and it would appear from the information provided to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, that this information had not been followed up in the course Superintendent Hesslinger's investigation.

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: I would not only be surprised I will also be very disappointed.

MR PIGOU: I'd therefore like to put this document in front of you which is a National Intelligence Agency document dated 21st April 1995 and titled
"Former Mandela Football Club (MFC members) express fear of Gatiza Cebekhulu regarding the Stompie Sepei murder trial"
And I'm going to read it because I think it's very important Archbishop and I hope you will give me some leeway here.
"Unconfirmed information"
This is paragraph one.
"Unconfirmed information obtained indicates that former members of the Mandela Football Club are afraid of Gatiza Cebekhulu, a witness in the Stompie Sepei murder trial and that they might named by him"
We blanked out the source name there but Mr X - if we can call him that, Mr X apparently said they are all afraid of Gatiza Cebekhulu.  
"They have expressed their fear that Cebekhulu will name them especially Moses Lekalakala and Killer Mbatha".
Paragraph 1.2:
"Unconfirmed information also states that Velape Gadebi pointed out that they have approached Leratode an MCF member who attacked and was stabbed by Richardson and ordered him to join the next intake of SANDF and to keep quiet at all times about what happened to Tony, also an MCF member"
Just for the record, we have identified that Tony is the same person as Tole Dlamini, allegedly shot dead by Sizwe Sithole on the 16th of October 1988.  And they go on as it says:
"who was killed by Sizwe, a former boyfriend of Zinzi Mandela"
We go across the page:
"Unconfirmed information suggests that this happened on the instruction of Winnie Mandela.  Gadebe indicated that Winnie said that Tony died because he wanted to leave the Mandela Football Club.
1.4
"Some of these MFC members are staying in Berea, Johannesburg (addresses unknown) because they are afraid to be in the townships,  they've also occasional contact with Winnie Mandela"
2
"The above-mentioned information was obtained from a go-between by a usually reliable source.  The information has not locally been liaised with any other department.  The matter will not be pursued further by this office.  Our receipt advice is attached.  Your co-operation is appreciated".
Now, this letter is addressed to the commanding officer of the SAPS CIS in Braamfontein and in the top left hand corner we have a signature of - I believe Wouter Grove, having received this information, and it appears from the information handed to us by the Investigation Unit that there seems to have been no further follow-up to try and locate these people to use that source.  Could you tell me what your comment is on that?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: Chairperson I've already indicated that if we haven't - from the side of the police service, followed the information up at least because it's unconfirmed one source, untested information but still we have a responsibility to follow it up.  If we haven't, I'll be very disappointed because that would have been normal practice.   Once again Chairperson - if you look at the right top corner, it seems that the document was discussed between - at that time Brigadier Suiker Britz and there was an instruction from General Wouter Grove, for him to also discuss it with Colonel Henk Hesslinger.  So I think really, if you want to have a firsthand answer on this document and whether we have followed it up we have to ask the investigators whether they have followed it up.

MR PIGOU: Thank you.  I just want to say for the record that that document was provided to myself by Superintendent Hesslinger and Ann Moodley when I picked up documentation in May of this year in connection with this investigation.  I want to move on to a subject I presume will be of some controversy in this hearing and that is the authorisation of R10.000-00 payment to Gerry Richardson in 1995.  Could you tell me what knowledge you have about the circumstances leading to the authorisation of that payment?