Special Hearings — Political Party — 1998-05-06

MR SIBANYONI: I just would like to go back to the questions that were actually sent to yourselves and it's not something you've actually touched upon in your submission, that is the relationship between the UDF and the ANC underground internally as well as externally and I think that we alluded to it at the time of the hearing into the Mandela Football Club and you talked about the fact that Mrs Mandela was not actually part of the UDF, and I wonder if you could just elaborate on the kind of relationship that existed at the time; that's my first question.
 The second one relates to the conflict between organisations and particularly the UDF and AZAPO, I know you've dealt with it here in your submission but I think we're also interested in when we talk about reconciliation there is an immediate assumption that it's between white and black but the reality now is that in townships people who were previously enemies now have to live together and whether you've got any kind of comment or suggestion to offer on that aspect.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you there are two questions.  Mr Ntsebeza would like to piggy-back and then you can answer all three. I'm only allowing him one question.

MR NTSEBEZA: Ja it's actually on this UDF/AZAPO conflict and especially from the perspective that Yasmin has indicated about reconciliation.  You see much of the conflict, I think it is clear between organisations, this interorganisational conflict was also informed by as we now know the intervention at a covert level by state agencies.  If you look for instance at the so-called Cradock Four phenomenon, even though for most people it was largely clear who had been responsible for those deaths, you will recall that those deaths at some stage were showed to be presented as a consequence of this AZAPO/UDF conflict to a point that in the first inquest there was a moment of discomfort when the lawyers representing the families were seemingly wanting to take that line until there was intervention by an AZAPO lawyer and it became clear that that itself was giving impetus to the conflict and trying to sustain it because certainly from that first inquest the people in AZAPO took the view that it was interesting that it appeared for political mileage, even the presentation of the conduct of the inquest by the family lawyers seemed to suggest that they are...(indistinct) into this whole thing.  Now my question was, to what extent were the leaders conscious, because I think you deal with it here, and in some of the replies it was dealt with in the context of the joint management things which were propagating this whole thing about black on black violence, but in particular in the UDF/AZAPO, to some extent PAC or whatever other organisation, to what extent was the leadership conscious of this manipulation of the political gain by state authorities and to what extent did they then try and keep the perspective then, and now that it becomes clear that there may have been a misunderstanding of the role of other organisations in that conflict, is there anything that is being done today to try and deal with those situations where it is clear some misunderstanding did take place about the role of other organisations in the conflict?  And do you have a sense of whether there is reconciliation or reconciliation is possible in those circumstances?

CHAIRPERSON: Well there you have it, who wants to start?  Mr Morobe.