Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-19

MR STRYDOM: Before the attack was there any discussions with any police or military people, to assist you and the other attackers during the attack?

MR MKHIZE: How could we have invited the police whilst we were on our way to attack and kill people?  The police were obviously against that and therefore we could not have invited them to be part of us.

MR STRYDOM: After the attack, did you re-enter the hostel at the main gate?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: You made reference to certain goods that were found in the hostel afterwards.  What happened to those goods, stolen goods?

MR MKHIZE: I did indicate that I only heard that there are some stolen goods, but I was not able to point them out.  We only heard about this, and we moved around, looking for these stolen goods, but we were not able to find any.
	Some of the people had burnt some of these stolen goods.  I am not in the position to say, therefore, that I found a particular item in a particular house or apartment.  It was at night, and there were so many people.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know who gave the instruction that stolen goods should be burnt?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR STRYDOM: I know not of anyone.  I don't think it could have been anyone, except that they on their own, may have decided that if I happen to see this, I will not be in agreement with it.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Themba Khoza, as far as you know, was he aware of the attack prior to the attack?

MR MKHIZE: No, he knew nothing.  Khoza does not reside here, he would only come once to deliver a message or informing us about a meeting, but he does not reside here.
	In some instances, we would go and report to him what was developing, but he knew nothing and he could not have condoned this attack.

MR STRYDOM: Afterwards, during any meeting that could have taken place, did Mr Themba Khoza in your presence, tell the residents to burn the looted or the stolen goods?

MR MKHIZE: No.  He did not instruct anyone to that effect, except that maybe he might have told them in my absence, but I do not recall at any instance, him informing the residents to burn all the stolen property.
	The one thing that I remember him saying was that the police are present and we should cooperate with them, we should not fight them.

MR STRYDOM: After - let me ask you in this way  - you testified that you heard later on that a certain amount of people were killed in the township, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Did you expect that any amount of people could be killed on that particular night?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: In retrospect, thinking back now, how do you feel about the whole situation that so many innocent people got killed?

MR MKHIZE: I felt very bad after the incident, because I discovered later that some of the people who died, were not necessarily the people who were attacking us.
	Some of the people who were really attacking us, escaped unscathed.  People who were really involved or responsible, fled and that made me feel bad.  That is why I am before this Committee today, to seek amnesty.  I feel very sorry because we did not manage to get all the people who were responsible for us being attacked.

MR STRYDOM: On the night of the attack, was Mr Vanana Zulu, Prince Vanana Zulu, was he present?

MR MKHIZE: No.  If I am not mistaken, he had gone home.  I am not sure whether that was the first or the second week that he was absent.
	What actually led to us to launching the attack, was because he was against us launching that attack and he wanted to actually discuss the matter with the township residents, and that is why we decided to launch the attack in his absence.
	That is when we actually got the opportunity to be able to launch that attack.

MR STRYDOM: A person by the name of Victor Keswa, I think his nickname is Katisi, was he there that night of the attack?

MR MKHIZE: No, he was not.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, that last answer was not translated.

INTERPRETER: I apologise.

CHAIRPERSON: Repeat the answer.

MR MKHIZE: I said Mr Keswa was absent.  I cannot recall whether he was in hospital or in prison.

MR STRYDOM: You gave evidence in your defence during a criminal trial, and you denied that you know anything about the attack.  Why did you do that during the trial?

MR MKHIZE: Please repeat the question.

MR STRYDOM: At the criminal trial, you denied that you have any knowledge whatsoever about the attack.  Why did you do that?

MR MKHIZE: I think that was because of the situation at the trial, I did not want to be convicted.

MR STRYDOM: I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Are there any questions from the (indistinct) side, Ms Pretorius?

MS PRETORIUS: As the Chair pleases.  I would just like to know Mr Mkhize, you say you left your job because you were all alone, what did you mean by that?

MR MKHIZE: There was no other Zulu person there, or anybody else who belonged to the IFP.  I was just the only one.
	There was no other IFP member or anybody who also came from kwaZulu Natal.  Therefore there was no one to protect me.   The only thing I could do, was to flee.

MS PRETORIUS: What were you scared of at the time, at your employment, who were the people you were working with?

MR MKHIZE: All the employees at Metal Box, were ANC members.  I was the only Inkatha member.

MS PRETORIUS: You would not move freely in the Vaal Triangle, you had to be a group of eight or ten when you went out.  If you were alone, you would be killed.  Who would kill you?

MR MKHIZE: It was the ANC members.

MS PRETORIUS: In Boipatong, you say that you do not know who was in charge of the SDU's.  I think the question is not the person, but who was the organisation who was in charge of the SDU's?

MR MKHIZE: I do not have knowledge, but what I know is that the SDU's were ANC people.  That is what I know.

MS PRETORIUS: When Katisi or Victor Keswa was in hospital, was he also in custody at the same time?

MR MKHIZE: That is the period I was referring to, that I am not certain whether he was in hospital or in prison.  I am not sure.

MS PRETORIUS: No, the question is, even when he was in hospital, was he in custody at the time?

MR MKHIZE: I think so.

MS PRETORIUS: I have no further question, thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Da Silva?

MR DA SILVA: May it please you Mr Chairman.  Do you know a gentleman called Daniel Mabote, or Themba Mabote?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Did he participate in this attack?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, he did.

MR DA SILVA: I understand from the evidence of the other applicants that after the attack, directly after the attack, a group of people gathered in a veld west of Boipatong, between Boipatong and Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, is that correct?  That was immediately before the group crossed over Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

MR MKHIZE: I think there was a group that did meet there.

MR DA SILVA: Do you remember if Mr Themba Mabote was armed?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, he was armed.

MR DA SILVA: Do you recall what type of weapon he had with him?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: At the criminal trial, Mr Holi Bajozi testified that Themba Mabote fired in the direction of a military vehicle.  Did you see that happen?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not remember.

MR DA SILVA: I do not have any further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ma'am?

MS TANZER: Are you aware of a resident in the hostel by the name of Andries Nosenga.

MR MAPOMA: Excuse me Ma'am, maybe if you can place yourself on record.  If you may place yourself on record.

MS TANZER: I do apologise.  My name of Goldie Tanzer.  I am an Attorney at law and I am representing I think the 17th applicant in this matter, Andries Matanzima Nosenga.
	Should I repeat the question?  Are you aware or did you know a resident at the kwaMadala hostel by the name of Andries Nosenga?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not know him.