Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: Any one of the three lists?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: She didn't know about two of those three lists that I ...

GEORGE BIZOS: Any list.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: She knew about a list which she had submitted to Arthur Kemp for information, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, let's confine ourselves to that list.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Right, correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: "Certain of the names on the list we believed to be the enemies of South Africa"
is that correct or incorrect?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I share that opinion, but she cannot speak on my behalf.  I am an independent person.

GEORGE BIZOS: No.

JUDGE WILSON: Surely Mr Derby-Lewis, if you and your wife discuss things together as most families do, you can say whether you regarded it, you in the plural regarded it as that or not.  That is all that you have been asked.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well in that respect we did, yes.  In that respect we did, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: "Clive and I had vague plans at the beginning that some sort of arrangement should be made to liquidate one or perhaps more leaders of the ANC and the SA Communist Party".
Do you want me to read it again, you have got it in front of you.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I have it in front of me Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, you know what the question is, it says that you and your wife
"...had vague plans at the beginning that some sort of arrangement should be made to liquidate one or perhaps more leaders of the ANC and the SA Communist Party".
is that correct or incorrect?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is not, that is incorrect Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Are we to understand Mr Derby-Lewis that your wife, a particularly active political person, who had a column of her own in the Patriot, written in English up to a certain stage, who wrote speeches for the leaders of the Conservative Party and who was politically active, that you conspired with Mr Walus the first applicant in this case, without giving her any hint of what your thoughts on the matter were, ever?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct Mr Chairman, and I explained in evidence why we did not want to involve our women folk, it was too dangerous.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes. "We did not want to involve our wives", was a statement made at the time when you were protecting her and I am going to suggest to you that one of the reasons why you didn't give evidence  is that you knew that if you gave evidence in all probability your wife may have been convicted on the strength of your evidence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is not correct Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Very well.  Then you say in the last sentence of the second part of this paragraph.
"Clive and Kuba decided on Chris Hani to be eliminated because of his particularly brutal record and his position as Chairman of the South African Communist Party which they believed should never have been unbanned."
	Now, did your wife have any knowledge whatsoever from you or from Kuba?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, she didn't Mr Chairman because I did not say what Mr Bizos has said I said.  I did not say this, my wife said this.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  No, what I said was that your wife had no knowledge from you and as far as you know, from the first applicant that you and Kuba decided on Chris Hani to be eliminated.  If this is true, she must have known of your plan?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: She did not know of our plans.

GEORGE BIZOS: If this is true, she must have known of your plans?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't believe it to be true Mr Chairman, in fact I suspect this whole statement.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  The Committee will decide whether it is to be suspected or not, but what I am asking you is this, that if in fact this is the truth, which your wife by the way swore to be the truth in a handwritten statement on page 238 to 239, Mr Chairman, before Johannes Hendrik de Waal, a Commissioner of Oaths at John Vorster Square, she swore this to be true.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Under Section 29 detention Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, well we will hear from her possibly of how she came to take an oath.  Possibly she will also tell us in furtherance of the struggle.
"Clive and Kuba wanted a description of the residences and I can only assume that this was to determine what sort of security surrounded the houses.  I simply asked Arthur what was asked of me, I am not a logistics person, nor was I present at any discussions in 1993 between Kuba and Clive about logistics".
	Now, if this is true your wife had an active part in getting the names and addresses of enemies of South Africa for the purposes of being eliminated by you and the first applicant, Kuba Walus.  Would that be correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It is not true Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: She goes on to say
"This does not mean to say I am denying that discussions between the two of them were not going on.
		Clive told me some time in March that he and Kuba had decided upon Chris Hani as the person to be eliminated ... (tape ends) ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: (no recorded reply)

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes. 	Was there, paragraph 46 on page 232,  paragraph 46.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: 252, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: 252, I beg your pardon, 252.
"Arthur Kemp phoned me to say  he had gotten some of the addresses I had asked for, so I asked him to fax them to me.  I asked him to fax me the street addresses and a description of the residences referring to the ANC/SACP people".
Do you know anything about that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I don't know Mr Chairman, no.

GEORGE BIZOS: And in paragraph 47
"Arthur and I met at Rotunda where Arthur gave me the names and a few other clippings for which I had asked, and Arthur told me that he was resigning from the Citizen and that he felt tired and was sick of the long hours especially because of the disruption to his family life.
		Arthur said he would be doing other things with his life, not connected with journalism such as the "statements business" and other projects.  I presumed Arthur wanted to see me rather than just faxing the list, because he saw the implications of the list and felt he should not fax it to me.  However, when we met, we did not discuss the list.
		After Hani's death, Arthur came to our place on 12 April for another matter, the computer programme, for which he had made an appointment during the previous week and he told Clive and I he had put two and two together and realised his list may have been used in the Hani assassination".
	Did Mr Kemp say that to you and your wife?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: When he came to visit us Mr Chairman, yes, he did.  I testified that he queried whether the list was his.

GEORGE BIZOS: That the list was his?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Very well.  And on page 254
"When Clive and I came back together from Cape Town in the car, I unloaded all the papers and brought them into the house.  I showed the list to Clive the next day, and he took it.  This was around the middle of February when we arrived back from Cape Town.  Clive must have given the list to Kuba after that (February late or March 1993)".
Is that correct insofar as it refers to you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I testified that I saw the list in Cape Town in the latter part of January, in fact almost the end of January.

GEORGE BIZOS: Naturally you were in court in the dock together with your wife, during the trial, and your wife went into the witness box in her own defence.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you had a vital interest to listen to her evidence very carefully.  What is the problem, can't you answer the question?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I don't know what the question is.  I have answered the question, I said that I have already testified that I saw the list in Cape Town at the end of January.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, you are one question behind. You were sitting in the dock next to your wife.

MR PRINSLOO: With respect Mr Chairman, there was no question put.  I didn't even record a question, we are still waiting for the question.