Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-16

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, Mr Chairperson, maybe I should just explain that Operation Butterfly was already on before I came to Natal.  I was not there from the first day.

MR VISSER: I didn't want to interrupt Mr Chairman, but Exhibit H is quite clear that it refers to 1985, and this witness only arrived here in May 1986.

ADV PRIOR: Yes sorry, but you said that you familiarised yourself with the political situation in Natal?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: That is correct yes.  In the broader terms I did get information about what this onslaught was about.

ADV PRIOR: Were you in Durban or in Port Natal at the time that the Piet Retief 9 were killed or were you still in the Eastern Transvaal?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I was in the Western Transvaal.

ADV PRIOR: Western Transvaal.

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: No, I cannot remember.

ADV PRIOR: Were you aware of such an event that nine MK combatants were in an operation, were killed in an operation?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: That is correct, yes, I became aware of this.

ADV PRIOR: Were you aware that shortly after that, Thami Zulu and Ralph Lawrence were then withdrawn by the ANC out of Swaziland and were taken I think into Zambia or Angola, I am not too sure.

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: At the stage when I tried to become aware of all the activities, I was aware that both of these people, or persons that you have just mentioned, was withdrawn but I cannot remember the correct dates.

ADV PRIOR: You were also obviously up to date with the developments in the Ramlakan trial, although it is referred to Buthelezi and others, we refer to it in these hearings as the Ramlakan trial, is that correct?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, to an extent I was informed about this because I think the arrests took place at the end of 1985 and once again, it was about six months before I arrived here.

ADV PRIOR: You see, what I am driving at is that at some stage in your evidence you said that your information was that Pila Portia Ndwandwe was during 1986 to 1988 in control of various local and external trained ANC terrorists?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: That is correct Mr Chairperson, the members who worked in the Intelligence section, informed me about this.

ADV PRIOR: What I am trying to indicate to you or demonstrate to you is that it seems unlikely that she would have been the Commander at that stage, given the nature of her, the circumstances surrounding her arrest.
	On Exhibit H the first page, the externally trained members were Sibusiso Sithle Mbongwa, also known as George Fukudi, he was one of the accused in the Ramlakan trial, do you agree?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I can remember that, yes.

ADV PRIOR: And his title was given on our information that he was the Commander.  Then there was Linda Mone, also known as Stan Mone, he was an askari and he was a State witness.

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I cannot remember the facts concerning the case.

ADV PRIOR: There was one Masters, there was another M. Tulo, who was an askari and also a State witness.

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I cannot remember that.

ADV PRIOR: There was a fellow, Mduduzi Sithole, apparently he died and there was Andrew Zondo, he was accused in the Toti bomb trial and he was executed.

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I knew about that, it was in the media.

ADV PRIOR: Are you able to assist this Committee from your own knowledge, when Ms Ndwandwe was supposedly the Commander, when she took over the command of the Natal machinery?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Mr Chairperson, if I can remember correctly, as it was told to me or the way in which I received this information through the Intelligence section, it was probably if you are now talking about Swaziland in 1987, 1988.

ADV PRIOR: Were you aware that she was a witness or listed as a State witness in the Ramlakan trial?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Mr Chairperson, I heard about that later.

ADV PRIOR: And are you aware whether she left the Republic during that trial or whether she was still in the Republic?  Are you able to assist us?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I cannot say with certainty, but the information that I received, I received this from the Intelligence section and as I heard from different sections, the same information.

MR MALAN: Can I just ask this, so the information that you received about these activities, was the information that you received from Botha and his section?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: That is correct yes.

MR MALAN: You did not have any other sources, or received any other information?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: No, I did not myself gather this information,  but mainly this unit who was responsible for the gathering of this information, kept me up to date.

MR MALAN: That is actually the question, because the question was if there was other sources that you knew about, but you said that all the information that you received about these security matters, Operation Butterfly and everything around this, came from Mr Botha?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Not necessarily, no.  Not necessarily from Mr Botha's unit only, there were general knowledge concerning this operation that I had as the case evolved.

MR MALAN: No, but general knowledge is not particular knowledge about this, your own knowledge that you had, not what everybody else knew?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct, the knowledge that I had, or the information that I had, was from the Intelligence component.

MR MALAN: Can you just tell us what components?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: It was Botha, Taylor, mainly them.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

ADV PRIOR: There was no other way that you could be rest assured that that information was correct?  What I am driving at is you accepted the veracity of the information given to you by Taylor and Botha without reservation?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: That is correct.  I accepted the information that they gave me.  Over the years, I have received information from them about other incidents, etc.

ADV PRIOR: Now, were you aware that Stanley Bhila had been eliminated by your unit or by the members under your command?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: No Mr Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: When did you hear for the first time that Bhila had been murdered by your, members of your unit?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Mr Chairperson, if I can remember correctly, it was when the amnesty process or applications were discussed?

ADV PRIOR: Did it take you by surprise?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Well, I was surprised to hear about this, but I did not know a lot about Bhila.

ADV PRIOR: He was killed in 1987, you were already almost a year in Durban, is that correct, or in Port Natal?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: That is correct yes.

ADV PRIOR: I am just trying to understand how the command structure worked, if your men under you were prepared to kill people or murder people without informing you, then I want to understand how it was possible?  Was that par for the cause or what was the position, was it on a need to know basis?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Mr Chairperson, in many of these instances, as amongst others, I can refer to Bhila, it was on a need to know basis.  They did not inform me, that is the truth.  I was not informed about this and I added this in my amnesty application.

ADV PRIOR: So we can accept that they must have decided amongst themselves that Bhila was to be eliminated and that no one above Taylor, who was a Major at that stage, needed to know about that?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: That is probably how they decided on it, yes.

ADV PRIOR: We know Bhila was murdered in 1987.  Had the question of eliminating terrorists come to your attention before that, before that time?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I am not sure if there was any other instances, or cases.

ADV PRIOR: Was the first one when Ms Portia Ndwandwe was eliminated, was that the first elimination that you were aware of?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I am not sure, it could be, but I am saying that I am not sure.