Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-01

CHAIRPERSON: I cannot understand your evidence Mr Ndlangamandla, I really find it difficult to comprehend what you are saying.  I'm at odds to understand what really you are saying and it is important for us to establish whether this was politically motivated or not and this would be a very good indicator to us whether this was political or not but if you keep on changing your evidence and saying you did not understand yourself when you are supposed to be the one to understand yourself better because we have to take the evidence from you, you were there.  I don't know what we are going to rely on if you yourself cannot rely on what you are giving evidence to.  Are you telling the truth when you say there was fighting between the ANC and the IFP when your grandfather was shot?  Are you telling the truth?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes I'm telling the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you telling the truth when you initially said the fighting between the ANC and the IFP lasted for 30 minutes?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes but I may be mistaken when it comes to time.

CHAIRPERSON: If you are mistaken when it comes to time are you now able to inform yourself better and correct yourself and if that is so what would be your approximation of how long this fighting lasted?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I'm not sure of the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there any shots fired from the ANC prior to your - prior to the shooting of your grandfather?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: No there wasn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you do anything, you in particular in fighting the ANC?   No, no, no I haven't completed my question.  Did you do anything in particular that day in fighting the ANC?  What role did you have?  You were armed, did you use your arms to fight against the people that you were armed for?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: No I didn't do anything.

CHAIRPERSON: You were a group of 20, where were you, how far were you from the people who were in front from your group?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: We were in a line.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a straight line?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: No it wasn't.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were not standing behind any person?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: No I wasn't.

CHAIRPERSON: And how far was the other group from yours?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I'll estimate the distance, I don't know if I'll appropriate, I think from where I'm sitting and the wall there where I'm pointing, the curtains.

CHAIRPERSON: Would we be correct Mr Claassen if we say about 10 paces?

MR CLAASSEN: I'd say about 10 to 15 metres.

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Now from a distance of about 10 to 15 metres you couldn't see how the other group was armed?  You couldn't see a single weapon that was carried by people who were approximately more than 50?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I was only interested in fighting, I wasn't checking as to what other people were doing or carrying.

CHAIRPERSON: Now it has just been brought to my attention that your evidence that were about 10 not more than 50, I wish to have that corrected.  The people from the ANC were approximately 10 and I made a mistake in number.  I just wanted to correct what I've just stated to you.  I made a mistake, I said about 50.  In fact your evidence was that members of the ANC who constituted a group that you were fighting that they were approximately 10?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Point of correction, I said maybe above 10.  People from the ANC were above 10.

CHAIRPERSON: Above 10?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But not more than 20?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: No not more than 20.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I would like to correct that because I put a wrong number instead above 50, that's not what you had said.

MS THABETE: Madame Chair, please may I have a one minute adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: It has been brought to my attention that people have not really had lunch and if you want an adjournment may I then suggest that we adjourn for about 20 minutes to afford those who have not had anything to eat since this morning an opportunity to do so?  The time is quarter to 3, can we adjourn until 5 past 3?  Is that okay with everyone?  Let me find out if it's okay with the translators in particular.  Is that okay?  Is that okay with the transcribers?  Is that okay with Mr Claassen?

MR CLAASSEN: That's fine.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndlangamandla, may we remind you that you are still under your former oath?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: (s.u.o.) Yes I understand.

MS THABETE: (continues) Mr Ndlangamandla, would it be correct for me to say - you say this was a war situation?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: That is correct.

MS THABETE: Can you explain what brought about this fight at this day when your grandfather was shot?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I would say there was this power struggle in the area as to which political organisation is dominant.

MS THABETE: Did you, your IFP group decide to go and attack the other group or did the other group come to attack you and then you met in the middle, like how did it happen?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I don't know, maybe my explanation is not clear.  As I'm putting it before the Committee is that we were fighting, that was a power fight, we were fighting power between the organisations.

MS THABETE: I understand that Mr Ndlangamandla, maybe I should ask you in Zulu?  Can I ask him in Zulu?

CHAIRPERSON: You may do so Ms Thabete.

MS THABETE: My question is this, on that particular day where your grandfather was shot what exactly started the fight.  I understand that there had been fighting in the area that was a power struggle between the IFP and the ANC, I understand that.  My question is, on that particular date is it you or your group the IFP that decided that they are going to attack the ANC or you saw the ANC people coming from a distance, I'm just giving you an example, and then they came and you met and how did it come about that you ended of fighting?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I don't know how to explain about the fight.  I will just try to explain as I did before.  Do you want me to give an example as to how the thing happened?  I don't understand your questions.  I think I should say it like that.

CHAIRPERSON: If you can answer the question you can answer the question.  If you can't you can't, however we are trying to find out here the reason why your group which was armed got out to go and fight?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I would say we were aware that things were not going right at that particular time.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see a particular organisation's group coming towards you from a distance and then you armed yourself and approached them to go and fight them?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That should be sufficient Ms Thabete.

MS THABETE: Just to proceed, you said earlier on your grandfather was shot because he was on the other side of the line you said, do you remember?

CHAIRPERSON: May I correct you?  Mr Ndlangamandla, it is said that there was a furrow, a stream which separated the ANC from the IFP, is that correct?  Is that how I heard you?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Put your question then Ms Thabete appropriately having regard to that correction.

MS THABETE: How far were you from your grandfather at the time?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I would estimate to say it's 20 metres.

MS THABETE: With relation to Umseli?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I would say it's approximately about 20 metres far away from me.

MS THABETE: No what I'm asking is you say there was Umseli, right between ANC and IFP and your grandfather was shot because he crossed that Umseli?