Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-14

CHAIRPERSON: The application by Mr Khubeka cannot be considered at this stage until it is properly enrolled and properly investigated.  The effect of this ruling is then that the applications by the applicants whose names have been referred to in this ruling will be heard commencing on the 11th August until the 14th August this year, the venue at which those applications will be heard will be announced in due course.  On the 11th August the proceedings will commence at ...[intervention]

MR STRYDOM: I would suggest that being the first day that we make it a bit later to get everybody together and I would ask for ten o'clock?

CHAIRPERSON: Which one, nine or ten?

MR BERGER: Ten o'clock is fine Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Ten o'clock is fine Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Eight o'clock?

MS PRETORIUS: Ten o'clock will be fine, I think.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well, the proceedings on the 11th August will then commence at ten o'clock.  Before we rise ...[intervention]

MR BERGER: Chairperson, can I just ask that now that there is time before the 11th August that the applicants will give evidence in the order in which their names appear on the front sheet as from the 11th August, can we agree to that?

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, there's just one thing that I wanted to -you want the applicants to give the evidence in the?

MR BERGER: In the order in which their names appear.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, in the application?

MR BERGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Mr Strydom, it seems to me that there's something to be said from what Mr Berger is saying.  First of all it is quite clear that we are unlikely to finish in August and that because of, you know, my other commitments thereafter, we may not sit earlier than next year to finish the applications and perhaps it would give the legal representatives of the victims enough time to conduct whatever investigations and prepare and take whatever it takes to prepare if they were to be told timeously the order in which the remaining applicants will be called so that they can forecast their investigation and their preparation to that order rather than investigating an application which may not come up during August, which may come in some time at a later state.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I undertake to give a list of the sequence and I will give it before the end of July so that the legal representatives ...[inaudible]

MR LAX: No, that's not acceptable, Mr Strydom.

CHAIRPERSON: Why can't you give that now?

MR STRYDOM: Well I can give it now that the - I can give at least say the first seven or I'll try to give the full list at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: You said the first seven?

MR STRYDOM: I just thought maybe we'll just get to the first seven but I will give as far down as I can possibly do at this stage.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, can't we just agree that the applicants will give evidence in which their names appear and then there can be no confusion about that.  My learned friend has ample opportunity to prepare those witnesses and we also have opportunity in which to conduct our investigations.  The names are in a particular list, let's follow the list.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the mere fact that they appear on a certain list does not mean I should call them to that, one should look at the Amnesty numbers, they differ as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but surely at some point, these applicants will give evidence.  Why should it matter who comes first and who comes last.  Why can't that information be made available?

MR STRYDOM: I will provide - today I will give my learned friend a list of how we want to call these people because we see it in an interest to call certain people before the other people in those interests of the applicants and I will provide a list in the sequence I will call them.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, when are you going to do that by?

MR STRYDOM: I will do it before we leave today, I'll give you the list.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you leave today.

MR BERGER: That's fine, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: And then there is the other matter of the map, the map which depicts Boipatong, Kwamadala Hostel and the aerial photographs.

MS PRETORIUS: Chairperson, at this stage the Defence Force has been contacted but we are trying to get hold of it.  I will go personally to the High Court in Pretoria and have a look to find it.  Apparently, it must be somewhere there so we will, between us we will see that we get it.  There is also a map and an aerial photograph that all the representatives at the trial had which may also help.  I will see how many copies of that I can get and provide to everybody.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay and in the interests of progress I would urge the legal representatives to share the documents that each has in his or her possession which are intended to be used here and if there are any difficulties, please get in touch with the Committee so that we can give directions if necessary as to how to deal with whatever problems you may encounter in getting any documentation that you desire.

MS PRETORIUS: We'll see to that, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: And we will too, yes.  Chairperson, I'm not sure if the evidence leader has any resources at his disposal to locate those maps because I would have thought that those maps are probably in Bloemfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: With the record.

MR BERGER: As part of the appeal record, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay.  I am told that the investigator, the TRC investigator who has been investigating this matter is Mr Wessels Janse van Rensburg.  Perhaps if you could get -if the legal representative could liaise with him in order to see whether they can locate this document because I think he was helpful in locating the docket.

MR BERGER: Yes, I think that he is the correct person because the appeal court may very well be loathe to allow us or the applicants' legal representatives access to the appeal record.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yes I understand that.  Well would you then liaise with him and if there are any difficulties let us know.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, if I can be of assistance.  I undertake to have a word with Mr Janse van Rensburg when I see him in Cape Town this week and I will pass this on to him and ask him to liaise with the applicants' attorneys and the next of kin counsel to see if we can get that.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, is there any other matter that needs to be?

MR BRINK: It may be of assistance if we could have the - the appeal I presume has been enrolled - if we can have the case number, the appeal record number, that will facilitate the reference.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I suppose those are the matters that will be taken up with Mr Janse van Rensburg.  Is there any other matter?

MR BERGER: No.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, just one other matter, we haven't been provided with a list of the victims, the various legal representatives represent, I think at the next hearing we can just have such a list?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes indeed, yes indeed.

MR BERGER: Yes, we undertake at the next hearing to put all of that on record, the lists will be provided and so on.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well.
	Finally let me take this opportunity to thank each and every one of you for the patience that you have displayed whilst we had problems with getting off the ground, the delays that we've encountered and above all, your behaviour during the hearings.  The legal representatives for their co-operation, the interpreters, the media, everyone who has made a contribution towards ensuring that these proceedings are a success and we express our gratitude to the authorities of the college for allowing us to use this hall as we engage in a desperate attempt to uncover the truth. Thank you very much and to my colleagues who have been very patient throughout these proceedings, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS