Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-03

MR MALUSI: Would I then Mr Guleni, be correct to say you took the decision to kill the APLA members so that you could silence them, so that there could be no testimony to that you shot them?  That is Mqiza had earlier shot the other three?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that a proposition you are putting to him or is it the result of his evidence?

MR MALUSI: It is a proposition I am putting to him, I want his comment to that, Judge.

CHAIRPERSON: It must be properly put then, is that the reason.

MR MALUSI: As you please Judge.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the reason that these people were killed?

FUNDISELE GULENI: The reason to kill these people, it became apparent that as these people were injured, they would be dangerous to us, that was one reason.  They would also assault us.

CHAIRPERSON: How would they provide this danger?  What kind of danger would they pose?

FUNDISELE GULENI: These people first of all were APLA members and we knew very well that they were going to fight back, that is the kind of danger that they were posing.  Secondly, as the other people were injured and we knew that we were going to be prosecuted.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the two reasons?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes.

MR MALUSI: Mr Guleni, I want to put it to you that the reason you decided to kill all the APLA members was to silence them so that no prosecution could result from your actions.  What is your comment to that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, I agree with you and taking also this reason that we were expecting them to revenge.

MR MALUSI: Could you possibly explain to the Committee how could they revenge, because as far as I know, they were not from your area, they did not have any arms on them.

CHAIRPERSON: I think he is talking about a PAC retaliation rather than a personal retaliation.  Maybe you can clear it up if you want to.

MR MALUSI: As you please Chairperson.   Can you clear this for us, my understanding is that you say you had to kill them so that they do not pose a danger to you, so that they could not retaliate.   My question then is, how could they possibly retaliate?   First they were not from  your area, secondly it appears that they were just in transit, they were passing through Port St Johns and they did not have any arms on them, can you explain that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: What they were going to do, what came to our mind, was the fact that they were going to report back to their organisation and secondly as has happened during this questioning, we were not convinced that those people were just in transit, we took them as the people who were going to give the report back and come back and retaliate.

MR MALUSI: Your role in the entire incident, you have testified that more than anything, your role was a passive role in that you are saying you did not shoot anyone?  When the graves were dug, you were just standing around.  Mzwandile according to your version, was the one who was giving orders, is that the case?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not keep guard?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, I said I was guarding the place with Mzwandile.

MR MALUSI: I just want your comment on this, my understanding of the situation is this that of all the people who were involved in this, you were the only office bearer of the African National Congress, the rest of them were just ordinary members, they were marshals and Mzwandile who it appears, according to your version, was in charge, was an ordinary MK member.  You were the only office bearer of the group that was involved there, will you confirm that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALUSI: I want to put it to you that you were not just an office bearer, you were the Chairperson of the Tripartite Alliance in that area and my understanding is that a person of so senior a rank, surely you would have been in charge in that situation?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, that is correct, yes, I was  a Chairperson, but at that time, I was a District Co-ordinator for the elections.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you at a time the Chairman of the Branch or the Region or the District of the ANC?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I was a Branch Secretary.

MR MALUSI: Be that as it may, the point I am trying to put through to you is that Mzwandile could not have been in charge when you were the senior member?  What is your comment to that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: If we were dealing with any military matters, Mzwandile would be our senior or would be in charge.

MR MALUSI: In fact, Mzwandile has made a statement and it is on page 85 of the Bundle, page 85 onwards.   I do not intend to go into his statement in detail, but briefly his statement is to the effect that you were the person who was in charge during the entire incident.  You were the person who was giving orders.  For example on page 86 of the statement, on page 86 of this Bundle, it is on paragraph 3 on page 86, Mzwandile says
"... Mutsi instructed the boy carrying a rifle to shoot.  This boy shot two boys."
	What is your comment to that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I disagree with that statement in the sense that even when we went to him, we went there because we went there because we knew that his presence would be more effective in this whole process.  Secondly if we had an intention or if I had given order to Mqiza to shoot, that wouldn't be done in that busy area, and we would find ourselves in a problem and it is not possible that I couldn't have told Mzwandile to shoot, but what happened is that Mzwandile fired and everyone was shot and he said he thought that Mqiza was giving an order to shoot.  I disagree because everyone got a shock when a shot rang at that time.

MR MALUSI: In fact, the statement by Mzwandile that the first APLA members to be shot, were shot on a direct command from one of the ANC members, Mzwandile is saying the command was from you.  My instructions from Mr Gasmeni who survived this incident, is to the effect that they were not just shot by accident.  They were shot on an instruction from one of the ANC members.  Mr Gasmeni does not know who, but Mzwandile is saying that it is you who ordered that they be shot.  What is your comment to that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I disagree with that statement.  I disagree because I never issued any instruction or order and I got a shock when the people that I was questioning, were shot at.

MR MALUSI: According to a statement, your statement, on this Bundle, Mzwandile suggested that these people be stabbed, so that there could be no noise from a firearm, but no one was prepared to stab the APLA members,  will you confirm that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Will you please repeat the question?

MR MALUSI: According to your statement which you made regarding this incident, it is to the effect that no one was stabbed, none of the APLA members were stabbed, do you confirm that?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I did not say that no one was stabbed there, but no one - the stabbing was not successful, because we had to leave that other area and go to the other place, because they couldn't be stabbed.

MR MALUSI: Since you are now saying that you did not say that no one was stabbed, in effect, was anyone stabbed at all during the entire incident?

CHAIRPERSON: Your witness, Mr Malusi, the one that you referred to just now, was he a survivor of the stabbing or a survivor of the shooting?

MR MALUSI: Mr Chairperson, he was a survivor of both.  He is Michael Gasmeni, he was part of the group of ...

CHAIRPERSON: I accept that.  I thought you know, they shot two by accident and they left those two, I presume, hoping to let them die and then they took the other three somewhere else and then there was argument whether they should be shot or stabbed and there is where the balance of the survivors of the shooting, were then stabbed and left for dead.  I just wanted to clear up in my mind, that the survivor that you have here as a witness, is he perhaps a survivor of the stabbing or the shooting, but you say he was a survivor of both?