Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-07

MR PRIOR: Obviously there was a prize giving at the end of the day?

MR KIECK: Correct.

MR PRIOR: And was that on the bar?

MR KIECK: That would have been held in the bar.

MR PRIOR: Just as far as you can recall, did any members playing golf join the dinner.

MR KIECK: Yes, certainly, being a small community, members of the Golf Club and members of the Wine Circle, some of them are members of both and those that were involved in the Golf in the afternoon just moved across to the lounge in the evening and there would have been quite a number of them.

MR PRIOR: I understand from the evidence what was put to one of the applicants that Mrs Radie was an accomplished - was playing the piano?

MR KIECK: Ja, Mrs Radie is a very accomplished piano and organ player she kept us going for the evening with background music.

MR PRIOR: According to a list that was put up in the bundle of injured people, there were two black employees.

MR KIECK: Ja, there were two black employees, ladies from the kitchen staff that were probably serving or clearing the table at the time, they - one of them was pretty badly hurt.

MR PRIOR: Mrs Tahili and Mrs Tomata, can you say at this stage whether those were the persons.

MR KIECK: No, I wouldn't know who there names were but I know two members of staff.

MR PRIOR: And do you know where they were injured, in which part of the clubhouse?

MR KIECK: They were injured in the lounge cum kitchen section.  I think the one was standing in the entrance between the kitchen and the lounge.

MR PRIOR: Reference was made to senior citizens by Mr Xundu and the Committee explained via, Mr Lax explained what white people understand by senior citizens.  Are you able to just give us an idea of the age group of the people attending the dinner, or was it a mixed group.

MR KIECK: Oh, it was a mixed people, there were some young, when I say young from about 30 to 60, 60 odd.  Senior citizens - there might have been some senior members of the community present as well.  The word senior as I heard it in the earlier they weren't the elderly people, it was a mixed bunch of people.

MR PRIOR: You say the age group roughly between 35 and 60 years of age?

MR KIECK: 30.

MR PRIOR: 30.  Were there any dignitaries apart from Mr Radie that now joined the dinner that you can remember?

MR KIECK: Yes, you know if we want to call - Judge Claasens I think was there.

MR PRIOR: Was his presence advertised at all?

MR KIECK: No, no.

MR PRIOR: Or how did he get there, was he from King William's Town?

MR KIECK: He's from King William's Town, he would have played golf in the afternoon as he always did and he was also a member of the wine circle.

MR PRIOR: Are there any other dignitaries that you can recall at this time?

MR KIECK: No, I don't.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, that's all I have unless Mr Kieck would like to add anything of his own?

MR KIECK: Mr Chairman, there's one or two things that's worrying me, we have had four applications for amnesty.  I don't remember hearing how many were in the attack?

CHAIRPERSON: On the evidence we've heard there were two people who actually carried out the attack.  There were other people there.

MR KIECK: Because I see it or as I remember it from the evening, two people entered the clubhouse, two people must have attacked the club from the outside because the Molotov Cocktails were thrown at the lounge windows and the Uzi was used at the bar window.  I don't think the same person could have done that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well could you tell us about this, we weren't there we don't know.

MR KIECK: Just below the lounge windows it houses the gas bottles for the shower and Molotov Cocktails were lobbed at those windows with either the intent to go inside or to drop them onto the gas bottles so that they would explode as well.
ADV. GCABASHE: Lobbed in from outside you say?

MR KIECK: Lobbed it from outside.
ADV. GCABASHE: And this was before the actual attack?

MR KIECK: At the same time as the attack, everything was pretty simultaneous.

CHAIRPERSON: And the Uzzi?

MR KIECK: The Uzzi was directed at the bar doors on the bottom end of the bar which lead out onto a balcony.  Mr Chairman, if you would like to refer to the photograph, number photo 70, could give you a good picture of where the Molotov Cocktails were thrown.

CHAIRPERSON: Whereabout would that have been on the plan?

MR KIECK: Where it says "toonbank" and "toilet" on the inside, it would have been just outside of that, the bottom of the plan - in the middle of the plan.  You have "kantoor" in the corner.

MR LAX: This floor plan that you have got here is obviously of the upper floor, there's presumably a lower floor that you can't necessarily see on this plan?

MR KIECK: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: This would have been a long way away from the main entrances to the clubhouse?

MR KIECK: It would have been on the opposite side of the main entrance of the clubhouse.
ADV. GCABASHE: If you could just on photo 70 indicate which side that entrance would be - is it the far left or the centre - photo 70?

MR KIECK: Photo 70 would be on the right of that photograph at the bottom, you'll see the gas bottles down at the bottom end there?
ADV. GCABASHE: Where would the entrance be?

MR KIECK: The entrance would be on the other side, totally on the other side of the building where - if you have a look at the plan - it says "trappe" steps coming into the clubhouse.

CHAIRPERSON: Are these, you talked about the bar windows opening onto the balcony, is that the stairs shown on the plan - or no the balcony's at the end?

MR KIECK: No, the balcony's at the end Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Are you saying the Uzzi was fired at the doors on the balcony?

MR KIECK: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Photograph 64, does that show clearly the balcony, the steps that we have seen leading down towards the vicinity of the gas bottles?

MR KIECK: Correct, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: So, if you can just help us, if we just look at that floor plan again, where were these folding doors that you referred to be?

MR KIECK: The folding doors, sir?

MR LAX: You refer to some people, these people appearing through some doors you said and then standing up...[inaudible]

MR KIECK: If you have a look at the map as you come into the stairs, into the main entrance of the clubhouse, you get "kantoor" the little office and one further on.  Now those two entrances are closed with fold swing doors.  They entered through the second door, that's the last door opposite the bar door.

MR LAX: Ja we can see that.  So you're saying that there was one set of swing doors entering into the lounge and presumably another one entering into the pub?

MR KIECK: The bar door's an open door.

MR LAX: Is it an open door, okay.  Open door policy.

MR KIECK: But doesn't have a swing door where the others have, those two sets of doors have swing doors.

MR LAX: Yes, okay.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, just before I'll ask questions I want to add to what has been said Mr Chairman, I think it was indicated that there were five people, the fifth on was a driver.  Two were outside, the other one if I still remember, Xundu, explained that they were at the back but we didn't know, myself, what the back of the Golf Club is when he explained who was Mbeki, that is Vito Mbeki were outside so it's not in dispute that there were four of them, the two who entered the Golf Club inside.  The two were outside, the other one was in the car, the fifth one was driver.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
	 Mr Kieck, I just want -  just a few clarifying questions just to ask.  So, the position is that on the day on the 28th the wine tasting event was not for the senior citizens.

MR KIECK: Not for senior citizens no in that sense of the word.  There were senior people, I mean in age wise senior but not all of them were seniors.