Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR PRINSLOO: Afterwards, where did you go then?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I then took the people back to Jaco Badenhorst's
house, because the Mercedes did not come.   We waited for approximately five minutes.   The car did not arrive.   I was worried and I took them back to Jaco Badenhorst's house.  I then went back to the town hall.   I must have missed the Mercedes, because I waited there for a while longer and then I went back to Jaco Badenhorst's house and there the Mercedes was with the rest of them.

MR PRINSLOO: What happened there?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Chief Commandant Kloppers was angry because we left the scene.   They did not have ammunition to shoot more, I don't know what, he wasn't, he was angry, he wanted to know how many shots each person fired.   No-one argued with him and said it would have been a wrong thing to do, then I would have been a victim as well today, no-one argued and then someone went to the vehicle, I don't know who, he brought the ear and he showed the ear to us and said that is the trophy.

MR PRINSLOO: You did not shoot at the scene of the crime?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, I did not.

MR PRINSLOO: Is there anything - or did anything else happen at Badenhorst's house?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, we then dispersed.

MR PRINSLOO: During that time, afterwards did you go to the Voortrekker Monument?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I was called upon to go to the Voortrekker Monument.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you have a uniform then?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, I did not have one.   I bought a uniform there to form a guard of honour for the leader of the AWB.

MR PRINSLOO: With your co-applicants, did you stand in this guard of honour at this parade?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Who inspected this parade?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: The people who I saw there?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Who looked at the people in the parade?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I was under Commandant Martin and Chief Commandant Kloppers, although I saw General Oelofse there, but I wasn't part of the discussion and of rank, so I couldn't take part in the discussions.

MR PRINSLOO: And the leader, Eugene Terreblanche, was he there as well?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes he was.

MR PRINSLOO: After this parade that was held at the Voortrekker Monument, on the 6th of January you were arrested by the police?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, that's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: After you were arrested regarding the Act of Internal Security, and after you, and then you appeared in court, were you detained then in the Johannesburg Prison?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That is correct, yes.

MR PRINSLOO: While you were detained there in the prison, was General Oelofse also there?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you have any discussion with him?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, in a group, I mean if we're not in court, we do talk about how things are going, how the case went, etcetera, and he said there for us, where I was present, that we should receive medals for this.

MR PRINSLOO: Medals for what?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: For what we did.   He referred to the roadblock incident.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you then receive medals?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you get a promotion?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, I was promoted to - it can be that you can become a "veldkornet".   Chief Commander Kloppers also received a promotion to a higher colonel and then a brigadier later on.   He promoted me, I then became a commandant, and General Oelofse approved it and he signed it.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you receive an appointment certificate and you said it was signed by General Oelofse, do you still have the certificate?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, unfortunately not, when I resigned from the AWB, I destroyed all documents regarding the AWB.

MR PRINSLOO: The other people who were promoted, did they also receive certificates?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Was there, during December of '95, was there a visit by certain officers of the AWB?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: The leader, Eugene Terreblanche, with Mr Oelofse and there were some other people of the generals in staff, as they were called, they came to visit us.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you addressed by Terreblanche?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes.   He said to us if everybody did what we did that night, then this country would not have been in trouble.

MR PRINSLOO: This action of you that evening of the 12th December 1993, did you do it for yourself, did you do it on behalf of someone?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I did it on behalf of the AWB and for what they believe, I did it as a soldier.

MR PRINSLOO: And when did you resign from this movement?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: On the 5th of December 1996.

MR PRINSLOO: While you were in the Johannesburg Prison, did anyone praised you or congratulated you?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: During what period, because I've been in Johannesburg/Pretoria?

MR PRINSLOO: While you were detained in Johannesburg.

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: When we were waiting for the case, General Oelofse said to us that we are going to receive medals, we did the right thing.   The leader at one stage visited us, or at various times he did come and visited, he never asked us, "What did you do wrong?", he always created the impression that what we did was something that he approved of.

MR PRINSLOO: At that specific evening of the 12th of December, when Chief Commandant Klopper gave you the order, did you at any stage question his order?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No.   No, I know him from work, he was the main, or the chief trainer of the production worker and before he came to me and he presented certain facts and I did not question anything he said.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn until two o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS:

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: (still confirms to speak truth)
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT

MR KNOETZE: (First part of question not interpreted) ...and then you continued... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: You may have to start all over again.  You may have to start all over again, because there was a technical problem.

MR KNOETZE: I'll do so, Mr Chairman.   Mr Visser, you testified, and I wrote your words down as you spoke, and you said that at the roadhouse Kloppers said to you that General Oelofse said, "We have to begin to work"?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That is correct.

MR KNOETZE: And the way I understand Afrikaans, that means it's something that's got to happen immediately?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, we would have started that evening.

MR KNOETZE: But then you continued and you said that the revolution was going to begin.   Did you testify to that extent?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes.

MR KNOETZE: And the way I understand Afrikaans, it means that it's something that's in the future.   You did not testify in front of the committee that Kloppers said to you that Oelofse said that the revolution starts tonight, that's not what you said, but that's how I remember it.

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I'm not going to argue with you that that were the exact words, I cannot remember the exact words, but that's how far my memory allows me... (intervention).

MR KNOETZE: Or your conscience allows you?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, my conscience is clean, that's what I can remember, that's what happened that evening and I'm trying to remember it as closely as possible as how I saw it that evening.

MR KNOETZE: By this time you already know that my client, Mr Van der Schyff, would say that he did not hear that it was said that evening that "the revolution starts today"?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That is possible.

MR KNOETZE: Further, you also refer to the hard option, and he will say that he did not hear that either.

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That's possible.