Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-14

CHAIRPERSON: Ja but the whole issue was when was the first time you heard about the "trek pass".  Now you've given us two versions of it.  One before he died and one after he died.  Now what gives - what's the truth?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Well personally on the day when I heard about the "trek pass" and that he was given was when I was out of jail on the 5th of April.  I was released on the day in which Mr Ramushwana took over the government.

CHAIRPERSON: And on the 6th of April the deceased died.

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes he died.

ADV DE JAGER: Did Mr Ramushwana take over the government before the deceased was killed?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes he took over the government and the deceased died the next day.

ADV DE JAGER: And did Mr Ramushwana, when he took over the government, announce that he would incorporate Venda with Pretoria again?

JOHN MASITHULELA: He did not say that - I remember in his speech he alluded to the fact that he made the country governable and minimise the violence and he will end the violence.  That is what I heard on his speech.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.  We've had testimony that there was a list of witches that were to be dealt with by the community, were you aware of this list?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes I am quite aware of that.

MS PATEL: Do you know when the list was compiled?  Was it before the first attack on Mr Mahvunga's house, Edward Mahvunga's house?

JOHN MASITHULELA: The list was - I don't know about the list, I know that so-and-so was suspected of witchcraft, not a list.

MS PATEL: But you have just stated Sir, that you knew about the list.

JOHN MASITHULELA: I am referring to the logical order of the people who were suspected of witchcraft.

MS PATEL: When did you hear about this?

JOHN MASITHULELA: When I first heard about that, before the house of Petrus Mahvunga was burnt, I can't remember the date.

MS PATEL: Okay, and can you recall whether by that time, Edward Mahvunga had made his political feelings, or his feelings about your political activity, known or did that happen after the list came out, after you know it was said that these people must be dealt with?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Could you repeat it please?

MS PATEL: Okay, you say that you heard that there were certain people who were named at witches and wizards and who were to be dealt with, right?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes, it is true.  When you say to be dealt with, what are you referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: They will be banished or asked to leave or whatever.  There was a list of alleged wizards and witches, not so?  Do you know about that list?

JOHN MASITHULELA: I know about the names of the people who were said to be on the list.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so you know about the list?

JOHN MASITHULELA: If I know about the names, it seems to be logical to say yes, I know about the list, but I didn't personally handle or hold the list in my hand.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, that is all that was asked of you.

MS PATEL: Okay, thank you sir.   This list that was compiled, the names of the people that were on that list, can you tell us whether you know whether any of those people that were on the list, had interfered in the political activity of the Youth?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Well, regarding the witches, especially the ones who were on the list, the ones who were involved in the politics, was Mr Edward Mahvunga.

MS PATEL: Is he the only one on the list of alleged suspected or alleged, yes, witches and wizards who was in some way linked to political activities?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Well, I know of him only.  I can't tell exactly, I heard about the other people who were being alleged, but I don't know whether there were any difficulties in that regard, but if they had obstructed our way, we could have also realised that they were in support of what I thought that Mr Edward was alleged to be witch and his co-operation with the government of the day.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Can you tell us whether you know from your experience, whether Edward had in fact antagonised the youth politically prior to the list having been formulated?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Could you repeat?

MS PATEL: Okay, can you tell us sir, whether you know that Edward Mahvunga had interfered with the Youth's political activity prior to the list having been formulated or was there the list first and then there was the interference from him with your political activity?

JOHN MASITHULELA: In my answer I said that I heard about a list of these people who were suspected of being witches after the death of the deceased, whereas I have heard about the other names some of the names, before I was released.  I gathered some names like Mtsinya, Wilisoga, Gangari.

CHAIRPERSON: We haven't got time to listen to irrelevant, stuff that you haven't been asked.  All you have been asked is did the deceased interfere with the Youth before or after you came to know about that list?

JOHN MASITHULELA: No, because during that time, we didn't really have this political activities, because it was just an emotional activity from other countries, and it was really flickering down to our community.

CHAIRPERSON: So what you are saying is that he only started interfering with the youth after this list was drafted?

JOHN MASITHULELA: It could be that he started involving himself after the list.

MS PATEL: So then, if that is the position that he only involved himself with the youth on that level, after the list, is it fair then to say that he would have been dealt with in terms of either banishment or being killed, regardless of his involvement with the Youth, that because there was the list that was out, he would have been dealt with any way by the Youth?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Well, in my view, I think he would have been dealt with because it was in accordance with those who were also suspected of being witches, so that they shall be banished.  Because he was one of those people who were suspected as witches, he could have been taken away as well.  He was so aggressive, because he wanted to defend himself, he was not the same as other people.

MS PATEL: And then just finally sir, did you have an axe with you at the house of Edward on the day that he was killed.

INTERPRETER: Sorry are you saying axe?

MS PATEL: An axe, yes.

JOHN MASITHULELA: I didn't have an axe.  However, as I was being cross-questioned in the Supreme Court, I heard that, I learnt from Rosinnah Mahvunga saying that I had an axe.  On my recollection, I sold the axe when the deceased died, but I didn't have it in my hand.  It was alluded to that I used the axe.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not concerned about what was alluded to, you say you didn't have an axe?

JOHN MASITHULELA: I didn't have an axe, no.

MS PATEL: Okay, and you didn't have a petrol bomb with you either?

JOHN MASITHULELA: I didn't have a petrol bomb.

MS PATEL: All right, thank you Honourable Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

MR NDOU: No re-examination, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED