Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-01

CHAIRPERSON: I think what we are trying to say - no, I must say from the very onset, Mr Van der Veer, that we are not pretending that in the cosy room in which we are, with the benefit of hindsight, we have all the answers, but we must be satisfied at the end of the day that the suspicions that surround this thing are able to be explained away in a manner that will satisfy the 101 victims of, friends of victims of Helderberg, so that also you can say and feel at the end of the day that you are clear in your own conscience you did everything that any human being can have done in the circumstances.   So take our questions in that light.   So if we want to know what Mitchell said to you, if he said that to me, I don't know what would have been my reaction then, but it would have struck me as extremely strange for a man who had not only said he has taken the tapes and secured them and sealed them, for him now to tell me that those tapes have somehow gone back into circulation, so I think that's what we are trying to get at, how did this happen?    We will ask Mitchell, if he does come, but, you know, we would like to know what he said to you... (inter-vention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: ...to the best of your recollection?   Is that the... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: That's what I want to know.   I'm not suggesting anything else, but you must have been at the time extremely perturbed to find out that a vital, or potentially vital, piece of information had been destroyed?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes, but not that vital.   First of all... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: I'll get to that.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: ...if there had been a conversation, the operators would have been speaking to ZUR... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Well I'm going to get to that.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: ...and the individuals are there to question.   That's my first point.    The second point was that you must remember that there was much more evidence from the Mauritian side, in terms of... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Well, let's deal with it slowly, Mr Van der Veer... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...in pieces... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: All right.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...because otherwise I'm going to lose the thread of what I want to ask you, and I'm sure that there'll be ample opportunity at the end for you to add whatever you want and I won't interrupt you.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Thank you.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: But the issue is that how could you know, at that early stage, that it wasn't vital information?   Here was a piece of documentation covering the period, the exact period, when the trouble aboard the Helderberg started, how could you possibly know that that didn't have the vital piece of information on it?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Because the vital piece of information, or the information, the aircraft had, the Mauritius tower had the full recording of the conversation with the pilot.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: No, that's making a number of assumptions, and I will deal with those assumptions... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Thank you.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...in due course, but the point is this, that you could not have known that there wasn't something important on that tape?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: And your evidence to this commission is that you reacted to Mickey Mitchell with some degree of reprobation?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Disappointment.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Disappointment, correct.   Would it surprise you to know that Mickey Mitchell says that he took the tape from Jimmy Deale, who was sent there, who does not deny that, and says that he gave it into the hands of you and Malherbe.   Do you wish to deny that?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No, but I - it could have been, I don't know.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Hang on, let's stop there.   If Mitchell says that the took the tape from Jimmy Deale and gave it to you, do you accept that?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: If he says so, I will not deny it, but I cannot recollect that.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Right.   That is what he says.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay.   Could you explain possibly to the commission then how Mickey Mitchell should be blamed for having lost the tape, because according to his evidence you were the last person in possession of that tape?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I have no answer to that.   I cannot honestly recollect.   Okay, I cannot say whether he gave the tape to me, what I do know, in my mind, all the years, is that we made sure that the tape was there and it was sealed, okay?   Mr Malherbe could have been with me, yes, but you must remember at that point that was not the most important item on my mind.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, that's not the question, Mr Van der Veer.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay.   So I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: You see... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: If Mickey says he gave it to me, I will accept what he says.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, we have now to be certain, because I don't know whether I follow this very slowly.   My recollection of your evidence thus far has been, until this question was put, that you were informed by Mickey Mitchell that, or the other gentleman, Lewis, that the tape had been secured and I got the impression that it was they who had secured it, they had sealed it.   Now you don't seem to be denying the fact that it could have been you and/or Malherbe who did it.   Now is it possible for you, if I understand and recall your evidence well, to say whether in fact it was you and/or Malherbe who secured the tape, or whether it was, as you originally testified, Mitchell who did so?   Because it's then going to be able to elucidate for us as to whether the conversation which you seem to allude to took place where Mitchell came back to you to say, "We have unfortunately lost the tape (indistinct)".   So it is important who secured that tape, was it you and/or Malherbe or was it Mitchell, as originally testified to by you?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Mr Chairman, what does the word secure mean?

CHAIRPERSON: Taking the tape and put it somewhere where it is going to be sealed.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No, I did not do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Not even in the fashion - are you then firmly denying that the tape was put into your hands by Mitchell, as has been put to you by Dr Klatzow, and that the last person who had that tape was you, because we must get a firm denial from you on that score?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay, I did not secure the tape in any plastic bags or something like this, okay... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: That was not my question, Mr Van der Veer.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No, that's the word secure.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that is not the word secure.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Secondly, if it was handed to me or to Mr Malherbe, I will not deny that, okay, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you answer the other question, are you accepting, as Mitchell has indicated, that you were the last person to whom the tape was given?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I don't know.   If I knew, I would tell you so.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Klatzow?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Well let me ask you this, at the time of the Margo Commission, you must have been aware that the rumours, ugly rumours, were already circulating and that the ZUR tape, as was indicated, if you read the Margo Inquiry, formed a part of Margo's annoyance, allegedly?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Uhum.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Margo expressed the view that he wanted to find out exactly what had happened to this tape.   Now did you ever instruct Viv Lewis or Mickey Mitchell to go to Margo and say, "I had the tape and I'm sorry, we taped over it"?