Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-07

DEPOUTCH ELESE: People who were shot it was Timothy Soga, Pauli, Joyce, Tienie and Ayanda.  They were in the dining room.  Three people passed away.  Tienie was injured at the back several times and Ayanda was shot at the leg, it is the one who grabbed the button of the electricity to switch off.  That is why Tienie survived because it was dark.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you at home that home that night?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: I was at a meeting at that present time when the incident occurred.

CHAIRPERSON: Do carry on.  Any other questions?

MR FORTUIN: No further questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FORTUIN

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Goso?

MS GOSO: Mr Elese, as the applicant's representative, first of all I wish to convey my condolences to you for the event that happened.
	Secondly, I would like to take your mind back to the time when Mandla was giving evidence.  Would you agree with me that it was Mandla's evidence that in fact he did not know where the operation was going to be carried out and in his own mind, because he had heard that it was gangsters that were killing the members of his organisation, in his own mind he thought that they were going to where they were going to find the gangsters.  Do you accept that as the position?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: I don't accept that.

MS GOSO: Would you accept if he comes and expresses his regret to you, if he stands up from where he is and I ask him as his representative, to express to you personally how sorry he is for this event, would you allow him to do that?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: I cannot forgive him, but I can allow him to say that.

MS GOSO: Can I ask for the permission of the Amnesty Committee to ask Mandla Maduna to go and present himself to the victim.
	Mandla, would you be willing to go and meet Mr Elese and express your regret which you have stated in the affidavit?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes.

MS GOSO: Please do so.  Please stand up, go over to him, come forward and do so.   ...(tape ends)

DEPOUTCH ELESE: ...[inaudible] got a different view of him, he was going to use his force.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that the dispute between taxi operators is something that carried on on the one hand, and the dispute in the community, the political dispute between Jeffery Nongwe and others, was not related to the taxi disputes?  Is that what you are saying?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Yes, it was a separate thing between the taxi thing and the community thing.  The taxi's, they were doing their own thing, on the other side, at that time the taxi were operating normally.

CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned CATA, what is CATA?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: CATA is a group of taxi people who didn't see them joining CODETA because in the first place there was no CATA, there was no CODETA, there was Lagunya and Webta and after their conflict, when the other group fled to stay at the bush next to the beach in Swartklip, when there were meetings which was arranged by organisations, that these groupings have to come together to form one organisation, and they formed this CODETA, but on their launch which was at Goodwood, a group of people whom previously they were at Webta, a group of eight stood out and said they are pulling out of these talks.  They formed a Big 8 and then they formed this CATA.
	That group, they were mainly operating from Nyanga, Crossroads to Bellville and Cape Town and Claremont, and CODETA now was only operating at Khayelitsha, to Nyanga and also to the towns.  They were not involved in the community thing.

CHAIRPERSON: As far as you are concerned if I understand your evidence, the attack on your house was not related to the dispute within the taxi business?  Is that right?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Jeffery Nongwe have anything to do with the attack on your house?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Yes, because after the incident occurred, there was a big braai at Nongwe's place, they slaughtered five cows.  We've got information that they got the R100 000 and Jeffery Nongwe that time, he was having a 4 x 4 bakkie and in our sources, the bakkie he got from the CPA.

CHAIRPERSON: What is that?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: It is the Cape Provincial Administration.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on please.

MS GOSO: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Because - precisely because this group of eight according to your evidence, was a breakaway group from taxi operation, if we link Jeffery Nongwe with the Big 8, we have to go back to the taxi operation, first of all to see if there is any political content in terms of events there, and then we are going to go to the community related aspect, and also try and find out there, if there was any political content, because the basis on which we are going to move, we are trying to find out whether in fact there was any political content in these events that took place.
	With that background, let us go back to the taxi operators, I would like to ask you Mr Elese, I heard you mention Lagunya and Webta, did these two groups have any political affiliations?  Do you know, did they or did they not?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: They are not affiliated to any organisation because both, they were on the business and they were not affiliated to any organisation as far as I know.

MS GOSO: Because the information that ran in the media at the time, was that in fact one was affiliated to the ANC and the other one was affiliated to the PAC, would you disagree, totally disagree with that?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: I will disagree with that, because you will find out at CATA, they are members of PAC, they are members of ANC and then you go also on the other side of CODETA, you will find members of the PAC, you will find members of the ANC, but their faction was around route operations, not a political thing.

MS GOSO: Yes, route operations right, but what ran in the media is that although it was about business, it was about route operations, there seem to be a tendency for one area to be aligned to one political party and the other group to be aligned to another political party culminating in peace talks, resulting in CODETA which was an umbrella body, sort of encompassing people of various political persuasions.  Would you disagree with that?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: When this CODETA thing was established, there was talks.  All political organisations, PAC, AZAPO, ANC, SACP, SANCO, WCUSA and Civic Structures, it is them who were mediating these two parties and formed this organisation which was called CODETA, with all organisations, where they were involved in the peace process.
	At the end of the day they were putting a name because they want to disband Lagunya, they want to disband Webta, at the end of the day, to have one name and with one logo.
	It was this CODETA and then both organisations, they went and launched this organisation of CODETA at Goodwood Showgrounds, and all the taxi people, they were there.

MS GOSO: Any way, let us now move from the taxi operation, let us now go to the community aspect of the build up to the events.
	Would you agree with me when I say in fact at that time, the community as a whole, was highly politicised, it was the pre-election period, wasn't it, am I correct?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: At that time, it was premature to say it was a pre-election thing, because we didn't have a date for the election, and it was still on the process of CODESA at World Trade Centre, at that time we didn't have an exactly what we are doing around politics, because we were still negotiating at Kempton Park, then the incident occurred.
	There was no thing where we can say any organisation was gunning for membership or they were trying to mobilise around the election.  It doesn't appear at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question also related to whether the community was highly politicised at that time.
	The community as a whole, was it highly politicised?  That is the question that was put to you.