Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-05

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
MR McBRIDE
	"He further invited me to personally show me what he was speaking about.  These are my own personal observations confirmed that this was indeed a place popular for Security Force personnel.  On one occasion in the evening, we followed two groups of people from C.R. Swart and one of the two groups, one group went directly to the Why Not bar and for me this was clearly evidence that this place was frequented by Security Force personnel.  This together with the fact that Gordon had said he had completed his reconnaissance and used the word "infested with police", was sufficient evidence for me that this was a legitimate target.  This information was conveyed to the Sub-Command in Botswana on or about the beginning of the month of April to the end of March."

JUDGE PILLAY: What is that supposed to mean?  On or about the beginning of the month of April to the end of March?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I  think it should be the other way around, sir, the end of March to the beginning of April.  I am indicating before Easter, really.

JUDGE PILLAY: I see, okay.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I want to indicate at this point in the interest of full disclosure a telephone conversation which I overheard on Friday between my lawyer and the then owner of the Why Not bar Parade Hotel, Mr Russel Davidson.  Mr Davidson was asked by my lawyer whether to his knowledge his place was frequented by Security Force personnel from C.R. Swart and from the military, what I can recall from the conversation was that he confirmed this, he mentioned C.R. Swart, he also mentioned something like Dunnitor Boys Army Pilot, he also indicated that at some stage he was accused of some crime, I think it was selling drugs and the same police who frequented the place, assisted him in getting rid of the charge.  He also added that at one stage one of the police who frequented the place, he met whilst in uniform   at a race course and this guy even gave him a tip to place a bet on something, which won, I think he said Jamaican Music.  In short, the conversation I heard from the manager of the Parade Hotel confirms that indeed the place was frequented by a large amount of Security Force personnel.
"Several discussions were held during political education with amongst others Lester Dumakude, Lekote Pule, Johannes Mnisi on the possibility of attacking such places frequented by Security Force personnel.  During these discussions it was indicated to us that this would be in line with ANC policy and ANC guidelines on the attacks of Security Force personnel.  That we had reconnoitred such a place, a bar, was conveyed to the Sub-Command.
	Myself and Gordon were instructed by Rashid at that stage then to separate into two different units.  My understanding then was that if the car bomb was to take place, Gordon's unit would carry it out at that stage.  Unfortunately within the next month or so, Gordon Webster was injured and captured and a member of his unit killed, and he was later rescued by us and taken out of the country.  I immediately assumed command of his unit at this stage.  During the period in which I took him out to Botswana, I was then informed that a decision was made that the car bomb should go ahead, but that I should prepare a vehicle."

JUDGE PILLAY: By whom?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: By the Sub-Command.  Rashid was not there at that stage, I did not see Rashid on that occasion.

CHAIRPERSON: The Sub-Command you are referring to, Vic ...

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Vic, Oupa and Chris.

CHAIRPERSON: And Oupa?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes sir.
	"I was then informed that the decision was made that the car bomb should go ahead, but that I should prepare a vehicle to receive the weapons from Special Ops unit there and to receive the formal instructions from Rashid during the week, in June.  
	On arrival in Botswana during June, I met with Rashid, explained to him the situation, explained to him the reconnaissance conducted by Webster, the fact also that I had conducted further reconnaissance personally (that is what I want to add there), but that there was some problem with the operation in that civilians would definitely be hurt in the operation if we did carry it out.  Rashid explained to me the Kabwe Conference and the change of policy and amongst other things, that the ANC would not be too careful any more in going after Security Force personnel.  I was told that the injury to civilians was a secondary consideration at that stage and that the main concern was to go (it should say here Security personnel) wherever they may be on duty or off duty.  The only equivocation given to me was that there should be absolutely no chance of children being killed in the operation.  
	It was on the basis of the sum total of all Intelligence information gathered, ...(indistinct) the fact that the problems I expressed of civilians being part of the casualties and which was carefully considered by my seniors and the fact that in spite of this I was given the go-ahead for the operation, that I agreed to go ahead with this operation.   I left Botswana on the 11th of June and I arrived on the morning of the 12th with the specific instruction to carry out the operation on the 14th of June, a Saturday.  I was given funds for the purchase of a car under a false name, and for additional material which could be used in preparing the car bomb.   
	I cannot recall the sequence of all the events very clearly, but what I can say is that the people who assisted me within the country with the operation were not aware that the car bomb operation was to take place.   We all operated on a strictly need to know discipline."

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr McBride, sorry, when you went to Botswana on the 11th, you had in your mind you say the target, the Why Not bar?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have alternative targets, had you reconnoitred, when I say you, you and or members of your unit, reconnoitred alternative targets?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: There was the place The Barn, but it had not been reconnoitred to the extent of the Why Not and also I felt uneasy in the place.

CHAIRPERSON: So if you knew when you were in Botswana at that stage, that your target was going to be the Why Not bar, was there any particular reason why you should not mention that to Mr Ismail, your Commander?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, one of the very obvious reasons was that when Rashid came into the room, he looked around for bugs immediately.  If I had given him the specific target and named it, if there were any bugs in there, it would obviously have gone to the Security Police.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what sort of room were you in, were you not in an ANC stronghouse or stronghold or whatever?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: A hotel.  No, as far as I can remember, we were in a hotel room.

CHAIRPERSON: A hotel room?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I remember Rashid putting on the airconditioner to cause a disturbance with noise if there was any listening devices.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, but then you discussed that the car bomb would go on the 14th of June specifically?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: But you didn't discuss the specific venue?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I am not sure I understand you Ma'am?

ADV SIGODI: That it was going to be the Why Not bar, but you discussed that a car bomb would go?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: We discussed the bar as I mentioned earlier, but not the Why Not bar or any other particular bar.

JUDGE PILLAY: I think the question is if your fear that the Security Police in South Africa may overhear you by virtue of the bugs, and that is the reason why you did not mention the name of the bar, or your target, how come that you discussed some other details with regard to the operation in those same circumstances?