Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1997-02-17

ADV POTGIETER: Wat het u bedoel toe u se dat in u verklaring wat 'n jaar later geneem was, paragraaf 25 bls 4
Ek het teruggekeer na die plek waar die persoon wat voorgegee het om water af te slaan, en gesien dat daar 'n rewolwer voor by sy broek aanwesig is.  Op daardie stadium was daar geen skote weer afgegaan by die  kruising nie.
 Wat beteken dit?
MNR

MOGGEE: Dat die rewolwer het voor op sy broek gele - op sy maag.

ADV POTGIETER: Voor op sy broek?
MNR

MOGGEE: Ja.

ADV POTGIETER: Maar op sy maag ook.
MNR

MOGGEE: Kan ek vir u verduidelik miskien.

ADV POTGIETER: Asseblief ja ek het 'n probleem ek kan nie volg nie.
MNR

MOGGEE: Soos die persoon gele het, het die vuurwapen so gele.

ADV POTGIETER: So half oor die maag en oor die broek.
MNR

MOGGEE: Dis korrek.

ADV POTGIETER: Ek sien, los.
MNR

MOGGEE: Dis reg.

ADV POTGIETER: Nie by sy broek ingesteek nie.
MNR

MOGGEE: Nee.

ADV POTGIETER: Goed.
 Thank you Chairperson.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you advocate Potgieter - Pumla.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Chairperson - good afternoon again Mr Moggee.  
MNR

MOGGEE: Goeie middag.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: You heard on Sunday the Sunday before the incident in Guguletu that you were required at the scene at Wingfield and then to be deployed later on that morning at the scene of the events we discussing is that right.
MNR

MOGGEE: Dis korrek ja.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Where were you?
MNR

MOGGEE: Waar ek gepos was.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: No when you heard -  when you were - when you received the news or rather the instruction that you have to be at Wingfield.
MNR

MOGGEE: Ek was die Sondagaand was ek by die huis gewees toe ek telefonies 'n oproep gekry het en die Maandagoggend was ons weer na Wingfield toe waar ons verdere opdragte gekry het en van daar af was ons uitgepos na ons verskillende punte toe.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So you were sitting with your family at home - you must have been a worried man.
MNR

MOGGEE: Nee ek sal nie se ek was bekommerd gewees nie, want ons het al op verskillende tye was ons al gemobiliseer gewees vir verskillende take wat ons in die verlede gedoen het.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So the idea of getting into an operation that's suppose to be fighting terrorist did not worry you that much.
MNR

MOGGEE: Nee met Sondagaand het ek nog geen kennis gedra van wat ons opdragte gaan wees nie en waaroor die gaan nie.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: You only knew at Wingfield.
MNR

MOGGEE: Dis korrek ja.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I was really trying to imagine a father and a husband having to get involved in something as dangerous as this, I mean it seems that it was dangerous given what we have heard from your perspective, I am just wondering how people like yourself feel when they go into this kind of operations.
MNR

MOGGEE: Mnr die Voorsitter dit is maar deel van die polisieman se lewe daai om maar sulke gevare te trotseer, dis maar deel van ons alledaagse werk.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: At the meeting at Wingfield were there any policeman from Guguletu?
MNR

MOGGEE: Nie wat ek ken nie.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: It strikes me as being a bit strange that there is an operation in Guguletu and the police at Guguletu are not involved, I wonder why.
MNR

MOGGEE: Mnr die Voorsitter ek dink dis 'n vraag wat ek nie kan beantwoord nie, ek was nie die persoon in bevel gewees van die operasie nie, so ek sal nie daai vraag kan beantwoord nie.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: There is evidence here in fact that we have from a secret document that there was a clear instruction that white police officers should be involved in this operation and I thought perhaps you may be able to enlighten us a bit more as to why the Guguletu policeman are not involved.  Evidently you don't know about it.  About the reasons thereof.
MNR

MOGGEE: Ek dra geen kennis hoekom dit gedoen is nie.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: The men - policemen who were in the bus, that was suppose to be the one that was going to be attacked, now many of them were at that meeting at 230 am that planning meeting, how many of them from that bus?  The bus that was suppose to be targeted by this seven men?
MNR

MOGGEE: Mnr die Voorsitter wie in die bussie was, wat deurgery het na Guguletu polisiestasie toe weet ek glad nie, ek weet nie wie die insittendes was nie.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: You never saw the bus or are you saying  you  never saw the people in the bus?
MNR

MOGGEE: Ek het nooit die bussie gesien nie, want ons was op so 'n strategetiese punt gepos dat ons nie die kruising kon sien nie, ons het net wel oor die radio gehoor dat die bussie veilig by Guguletu arriveer het.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: You have testified this afternoon that you - you attacked the men - rather you fired the shots because you saw the person launch an attack on Mr Kleyn, now again a grenade is central in the way that the events unfolded that morning and this time the hand grenade did explode, was it ever submitted as an Exhibit in court as part of the evidence?
MNR

MOGGEE: Mnr die Voorsitter ek kan nie daaroor getuig nie, dit is die ondersoekbeampte van die toneel - dit is hulle pligte om daarna te kyk.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So when you giving your own evidence, you do not recall that the grenade you referring to in your statements you referred to  in your statements then and in fact now, we don't recall that this grenade was ever brought in - during the inquest.
MNR

MOGGEE: Nee ek dra geen kennis of hy ooit ingehandig is nie.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Any further questions - Ms Burton?

MARY BURTON: Thank you Chairperson - Inspector just to make sure that I've got it right, you were in an unmarked car in civilian clothes.
MNR

MOGGEE: Mnr die Voorsitter as ek reg kan onthou was ons ook in kamoefleerdrag gewees.

MARY BURTON: Thank you, and Officers Visser and Rossouw were in the car with you, is that correct?
MNR

MOGGEE: Dis korrek ja.

MARY BURTON: And presumably you were all together at Wingfield for that briefing in the early morning.
MNR

MOGGEE: Dis korrek ja.

MARY BURTON: And you received your briefing from Major Odendal who was in charge of the whole operation.
MNR

MOGGEE: Dis korrek ja.

MARY BURTON: And I am assuming that there would have been something like that sketch plan there identifying where you were all going to be and so on.
MNR

MOGGEE: Alhoewel ons - omrede ons die gebied geken het, waar die voorval sou plaasgevind het, is daar slegs aan ons gegee die spesifieke punt waar ons moet gaan staan, ons het presies geweet waar om te gaan staan.

MARY BURTON: I see, and then you also received a briefing on that occasion from Sergeant Bellingham is that correct?
MNR

MOGGEE: Dis korrek ja.

MARY BURTON: About the anticipated attack and about the fact that two informers would be in the bus and therefore you should firing on the bus - on the vehicle - whatever it was.
MNR

MOGGEE: Dis korrek ja.

MARY BURTON: We have heard other people who were at the meeting who said that they did not received any information from Sergeant Bellingham but you remember that clearly.
MNR

MOGGEE: Dis korrek ja.

MARY BURTON: Thank you - thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you Ms Burton, anymore questions?  I am asked to place on record that it appears from our investigators pieces of the grenade was submitted at some stage in the proceedings, I don't know whether that has been verified.
 Advocate Van Zyl do you want to put any questions to the witness?

ADV VAN ZYL: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions  for this witness, thank you.

ADV NTSEBEZA: I am advised that today's proceedings were intended by the panel, to go as far as this particular witness.  It would appear therefore that the remainder of the proceedings will be carried on tomorrow.  This proceedings will then now adjourn until nine o'clock tomorrow - nine o'clock.
MEETING ADJOURNS TILL 18-2-97