Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-09-09

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Mr Chair.  There is just one question I want to put to you Comrade Smuts Ngonyama but before that I just want to say I'm personally pleased that you have come because at least one thing is going to be clear today.
 There have been a number of people who have been confronting me and saying I was also in that march and no attempt by me to say no I was doing a case in Lady Frere on that day, has been able to convince anyone - said no you were there, and I'm sure it was because they thought I was you or you  ... [indistinct].  Anyway there is this question of the weapons.  You have alluded to it and I think we have to deal with it.  You have alluded it in this fashion, you have said you as the organisers or as the leaders of that march were intending to make sure that it was a peaceful march, that no people were armed and all that and you know the marshals and I suppose the leadership wanted to make sure that no one was carrying any weapons.  
 Now you will be aware that there have been two reports and my unit has gone into those reports and have presented a report where one of the reports, and that is the Pickhard report, says whilst it cannot be justified to call the march an armed invasion, there were some weapons on the marchers.  They say there were two handguns, that's what the report says, that there were two handguns which were found dropped on the scene and a video footage suggests one person had a long rifle and that the press and the clergy were reported to have seen weapons in the crowd.  The press and the clergy reported seeing weapons in the crowds.  Now I just would like your own comment about that.  I'm not saying whether you saw that but this is the report that I have which is based on the Pickhard  report.

UNKNOWN: Well in my own assessment, due to the fact that we had actually stressed the peaceful nature of the march, we did not allow any exceptions in the rule.  That is why we made it sure that each and every person that got into the stadium was searched and that was the situation to us as the leadership, and unfortunately as part of the leadership as part of the strategising committee of the region I was called by Judge Pickhard even to actually testify on that I would say then that that would be his personal position especially that we were seeing him part and parcel of the Ciskei Regime at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: ... [indistinct]

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Ngonyama, I am going to ask you a question which I have asked before to some of the witnesses who appeared this morning.  Right at the time the members of the Ciskei Defence Force opened fire, were the people in the march in any way a danger to the soldiers themselves or the buildings around, if any buildings around, if any buildings at all?

UNKNOWN: Well as I've stated in my statement, it is beyond reasonable doubt that there was no danger posed, no threat at all that was posed by the march of plus or minus 80,000 people to the Ciskei soldiers.

<UNKNOWN>: There has been an allegation that on the day in question, some of the members of the CDF were not even on duty officially.  Are you aware of that allegation?

UNKNOWN: Well I'm not very very aware of that, in fact we were not aware of that allegation before but later we did get that kind of information.

<UNKNOWN>: Is it perhaps in any way possible that members of the Ciskei Defence Force could have used this as an opportunity to revenge themselves, given that there was a very bad relationship between them and the community, if not one of animosity at the time.

UNKNOWN: Well to me that would be neither here nor there.  The issue is them being the instruments of the State and them being used to kill the people.  To me that is where the primary issue is, the lives of the people that were slaughtered on the day.  Whether that was done in the pretext of revenge or to perpetuate the situation in the area, to me it is really immaterial.  Thank you.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Mr Ngonyama.  Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mapula Ramashala?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Ngonyama I refer you to page 9, paragraph 26 where you say there was a lull in the shooting which led marchers to believe that it was all over and then there was a second volley and in your opinion, accounted for the majority of casualties.  Could you just give us some ideas about what triggered that second volley?

UNKNOWN: Well I won't be able to give the reasons why the second volley took place.  As I stated in my statement that my only assumption is the fact that this was another ploy to wreak maximum havoc, to actually take people by surprise when all of us think that it is all over and we begin to stand up and walk.
 For instance, myself, if I were to explain my personal experience, I was actually shouted down by a comrade that was next to me because I was standing up to go and assist a comrade that was gunned down in front of me and I was told that I must lie down again.  And at that very time the second volley had actually started.  So to me in my own assumption, this was another ploy to wreak maximum havoc.

UNKNOWN: I believe that psychologically in order for us to determine that this was a planned encounter, the question I need to ask is there was, the lull seemed to be orchestrated because everyone stopped at the same time, or the firing stopped at the same time and then the second volley started at the same time.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  I am talking and you are also talking.  Thank you very much for the submission you have made.  The speaker's microphone is not on.  The speaker's microphone is not on.  It would help us, thank you for your submission which would help us to draw as complete a picture as possible of the human rights violations that have happened as a result of the conflict of the past during this period.
 Thank you very much.  Order please.  Because they didn't applaud for you it doesn't mean they don't like you.  Oh I see the Premiere is here too.  We welcome you.  You may applaud for him.  I suggest that we take a break.  ... end of Tape 4, side B ... 
   ... and we would just want to welcome Mr Pik Botha.  Do you hear me?  No.  I want to say that we would like to bid you a hearty welcome and I am going to bite my tongue, maybe I should just speak English.  We appreciate the fact that you have taken the time to come here and be with us, to come and make your submission and to come and give evidence.  We are sure that you will enable us to have an important perspective on the event that we are investigating.
 We expect that - that you will perhaps give us a written, I mean, you will give us a copy of you submission?  A copy is being made, all right, right you are.  Thank you very much.  Without much ado then we hand over to you.

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION: BISHO MASSACRE - DAY 1 - 9 SEPTEMBER 1996
SUBMISSIONS,