Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-13

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I was just going to give you the other reference, the first was page 129 of Volume 2 and you'll find another reference at page 134 of Volume 2 - 134.  And the last reference in this regard before I step off, is at page 135 to 136 - 135 to 136 of Volume 2 and there you'll find all the references to this particular issue.
	Let's talk - well, we've already spoken about this brain injury and what you thought and must have thought to yourself about this brain injury Mr Coetzee.  I've already put it you, your common sense told you that whatever Nick van Rensburg had told you wasn't correct, couldn't have been correct.

DIRK COETZEE: No, not at all Mr Chairman.  I didn't know his behaviour as a person, I didn't know him that well and I accepted Nick van Rensburg's words that his behaviour became peculiar.

MR VISSER: And I just want to give the Committee - with your leave Mr Coetzee, the references.  First of all, page 102 of Volume 2 where you said he looked friendly and normal at Jeffrey's Bay.  Page 104 of Volume 2 where you said he walked normally.  Page 111 of Volume 2 which you put it this way, that he looked quite normal.  Page 116 is the next reference at Volume 2, where you gave evidence to say he was quite normal at Komatiepoort.  Page 119 of Volume 2 where you said that you could detect nothing abnormal about him and lastly, page 120 of Volume to say that you were just told - presumably by Mr van Rensburg, that his behaviour had become peculiar.  Do you remember that evidence?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: All right.  Now if that is not so - and this is really a more important issue which I want to approach with you now, if it's not so or rather if it is so that you failed to set out a political motive on that basis which I've put to you, I suggest to you that the only basis which remains for you for your amnesty application in this case, is if you acted upon instructions.
	Now you don't have to reply to that, that's a matter of argument, I'm just introducing my questions to you.  And you see, you said that you were given instructions in regard to the elimination of Mr Kondile.  Now that is broadly speaking correct, isn't' that so?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Well, if you have any doubt, let's look at page 93 of Volume 2.

DIRK COETZEE: I admit it.

MR VISSER: Yes. Are you saying today still that whatever the instruction was - we'll come to that now, emanated from Willem Schoon, Brigadier Willem Schoon?

DIRK COETZEE: For me to continue to Komatiepoort and go and assist, that's correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Go and assist.  Now, I want to put it to you bluntly Mr Coetzee, that is I were an applicant in an amnesty application relying on the fact that I executed orders from my superiors to kill a person I would have said so.

DIRK COETZEE: I don't understand the question, can - Mr Chairman, can you ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: I would have said so.  I would have said: "Willem Schoon told me to go and assist in eliminating a person that was going to be brought up from the Eastern Cape.

DIRK COETZEE: Mr Chairman, in the security circles we don't speak in that manner, so word for word.  And I can explain it, I did explain it in the manuscript I ...[intervention] before Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Yes.  But do you admit that the one thing you have never told anybody is that Willem Schoon told you to go and assist in the elimination of Sizwe Kondile?

MR JANSEN: Ag no Mr Chairman, with the greatest of respect, that is a completely unfair question, it just takes - it simplifies the complete context of volumes and volumes of Mr Coetzee's evidence.
	If it is a fact - if my learned friend is correct, which he's not but in any event, assuming him to be correct at this stage after all the amount of evidence we have of Mr Coetzee on record, then it's a simple matter of reading that evidence and seeing whether in fact he has never said that about Mr Coetzee - or Mr Schoon.  And if Mr Schoon told him something, what it was and whether that is in order.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Visser, could I just enquire?  What is the relevance thereof as far as the present applicants' applications are concerned?

MR VISSER: Well, the answer is a straightforward one, I act for Brigadier Schoon.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, not in this matter.

MR VISSER: In this matter Mr Chairman, the evidence of Dirk Coetzee - Mr Dirk Coetzee is that he received instructions from Brigadier Schoon to go the Eastern Transvaal ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he has said that.

MR VISSER: Yes.  So it's in this matter and I'm acting for Brigadier Schoon, that's the relevance.

ADV DE JAGER: So, this is asked on behalf of a alleged perpetrator?

MR VISSER: Yes, indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway, as I understand the ...[indistinct] of the point you're making is that Brigadier Schoon is obviously - Brigadier Schoon is going to deny what this witness is saying?

MR VISSER: Yes, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that's the point you're trying to make, is it not?

MR VISSER: Yes, that's the easy part Mr Chairman.  I must now test what Mr Coetzee - and I must refer you to the passages where Mr Coetzee has referred to this particular instruction - my learned friend has now challenged me to do this and I'm going to do it anyway.
	At page 93 of - that's your application, in paragraph IV, middle of that paragraph, I'm going to read it to you:
"At a later stage I was instructed by Colonel Schoon to meet up with Major Archie Flemmington from Komatiepoort and that Colonel Nick van Rensburg be joining us there"
That is ...[intervention]

DIRK COETZEE: Is it page?

MR VISSER: 93, the middle of the ...

DIRK COETZEE: I can see it Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes, and that's the sum total of what you said in your application form about - in connection with the instruction, is that not correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, the application form is not intended to be evidence isn't it?

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, I concede that, I concede that.
	Now, at page 94 where you dealt with political objectives sought, you came to (f) and you said:
"Yes"
Your acts were committed in the execution of an order and (g) you said:
"By Colonel Schoon"
So, there's no question now.  Now at page 99 of your manuscript, I want to refer you to that.

DIRK COETZEE: Where?

MR VISSER: 99 of Volume 2 and the paragraph number - I'm sorry, I'm referring to page 99 Volume 2 Mr Chairman and the paragraph number 5.4, .8, .3, .7 and I read this into the record as well
"One day Colonel Schoon instructed me to meet up with Major Archie Flemmington from Komatiepoort and told me that Colonel van Rensburg would join us there"
Then you go on to say:
"It was clear that we had to get rid of someone and I assumed it would be the prisoner that I had seen and discussed with Nick at Jeffrey's Bay"
Now I suppose what you're saying is what your counsel said when he objected to my question about the culture and how one spoke about - and what you said about how you spoke to each other in the security police, and that's why you drew these inferences, is that correct?

DIRK COETZEE: No, I was 100% sure what I had to go and do at Komatiepoort.  I knew who was coming up without specific names being mentioned and I knew what was going to happen there and so did Brigadier Schoon and so did Mr Nick van Rensburg and so did Mr Archie Flemmington and so did all of us.

MR VISSER: All right.  But you're quite adamant that it was Schoon - Willem Schoon who spoke to you?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry ...[indistinct] I think you should also refer to the next paragraph where he said he told Schoon that he'll need knock-out drops.