Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-13

MR BERGER: In your affidavits, in one of them, I don't have the reference now, you say that the attackers surrounded Boipatong, do you remember saying that in your affidavit?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, Sir.

MR BERGER: It's then difficult to understand, if the attackers surrounded Boipatong and then everybody went in to attack, how it is that there is a whole section of Boipatong that is not affected by the attackers.  Would you agree it's quite strange?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As I explained earlier Mr Berger that the amount or the number that I've explained, the 200 or 300 people I referred to, if you look at this map it shows the area of Boipatong and it is not possible for the number of people that I mentioned to surround the entire township as reflected on the map.

MR BERGER: But you yourself entered the township from Umzumvubu Street.  Now you can see that the entrance to the township, that entrance that you're came in on is on the lefthand side of the map in the middle of the page, that's where you entered to the township.  You can see it's written there: Umzumvubu.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As you are explaining as a person who doesn't know Boipatong well it is obvious from the map where we gained entrance into Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Well you told the Committee that you entered on Umzumvubu Street.  I'm just pointing out where that is on the map.  You can see it half way down the page but on the extreme lefthand side of the map, you see there Umzumvubu.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I see it.

MR BERGER: Now my point is this, if you and many of your co-attackers entered the township at that point to kill people, to damage their houses, to destroy their property, why is it that there is no destruction at all for approximately one kilometre into Boipatong, all the way along Umzumvubu Street until you get to Lekwa Street, you can see there's a park in the centre, all the way down to Bapedi Street, Majola Street, Barolong Street, Mosheshwe, going up from Umzumvubu, Mpeka Street, Batswana Street.  It's only when you get to Batswana Street you can see two houses there that were attacked.  Do you see that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I see it.

MR BERGER: So my question to you is this, you've entered the township, you're spreading out and yet you  don't attack a single house.  The question is, why not?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, I think I told you before that I did not know Boipatong well.   What you should note is that where it's written "Kwamadala" on the left-hand side of the map, did you say this is where houses are burnt down?   What you must understand is that, as a person who doesn't know Boipatong, this is where we gained entrance into Boipatong, where houses and some people were injured.

MR BERGER: No, Mr Mthembu, you told the Committee that you entered Boipatong on Umzumvubu Street and you knew it was Umzumvubu Street because you saw the sign.   Now, we can see where Umzumvubu Street is.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I see it, Mr Berger, but what you should know, I am trying to explain this, that as a person who doesn't know Boipatong well, if I say we went through Umzumvubu, I am trying to explain that this side of the township we went in through, from Kwamadala Hostel it is obvious from the map that which side we would enter through.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, what is being put to you is that when you testified, you suggested in your evidence that you entered Boipatong, that is you personally entered Boipatong through Umzumvubu Street, do you understand that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what's being put to you is, if one accepts that you entered Boipatong through Umzumvubu Street, as you can see in Exhibit G, okay, there is nothing on the map which indicates that there is any damage to any of the houses near Umzumvubu Street.   The first, at least damage to the house only occurred as from Bapedi Street.   Do you understand that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: So why is it that no house was then damaged, you only started damaging houses in Bapedi Street?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I do not know how that happened, sir.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, you must have an explanation for how that happened, because, according to you, you were simply told at the stadium, "We're going to attack Boipatong", no other plans were discussed at the stadium, or at any time, according to you?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: In other words, are you trying to tell me that, as we are going to attack, there are many spaces in that map reflecting that there were people who were not attacked, are you trying to tell me that we should have attacked this area?

MR BERGER: I'm asking you why you did not attack this area, there's a whole area and you... (intervention).

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, I do not know how this area was not attacked.

MR BERGER: Particularly since this is the area where you yourself was?

CHAIRPERSON: Well the answer is, "I don't know what happened".   You can't take it further.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, I'll suggest to you why this area wasn't attacked... (intervention).

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Are you dividing this area into two?   What I know is that people were attacked in Boipatong.   If you ask me why we didn't attack some people or some of the area, I do not have a response to that.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that Mr Vanana Zulu's house was in Majola Street?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: It is true.

MR BERGER: And I can tell you that his house was in this area of Majola Street that wasn't attacked, and that in this area of Boipatong, the residents were mainly Zulu and Xhosa speaking.   Wasn't this area deliberately left alone?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I have no knowledge about that, sir.

MR BERGER: And you see the strangest thing of it all is that Mr Tsotso's house is also in Majola Street, in fact it's almost across the road from where Mr Vanana Zulu's house was, and his house, Mr Tsotso's house, also wasn't attacked.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Can I just ask Mr Berger, if you say the people at Majola speak Zulu and Xhosa, what language does Mr Tsotso speak?

MR BERGER: The point is, Mr Tsotso was the chairperson of the ANC in the area, his house was left untouched because he was living in an area where there were predominantly Zulu and Xhosa speaking people.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Maybe you did not understand my question, I asked what language Mr Tsotso speaks?

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, can I ask the questions?    What I'm putting to you is that, if you were targeting the ANC, you would have targeted Mr Tsotso's house, but you didn't, you left his house alone, because he was in an area of people that you knew might be sympathetic to the IFP.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is your own opinion.

MR BERGER: If you were targeting the ANC, Mr Mthembu, can you tell the Committee why it is that three year old Mita Moleti, that little girl who's in the wheelchair today, why she was stabbed, in fact her skull was hacked with a panga, can you explain that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, what I can say is the residents of Boipatong were being attacked, we did not discriminate, it was not discriminated against as to who was being attacked, how old they were, all in all the residents of Boipatong were being attacked.

MR BERGER: So three year old Mita Moleti was a fair target, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, what I'm saying is that the residents of Boipatong were attacked.

MR BERGER: You see, the reason I'm asking you this question,  Mr Mthembu, is that Mita Moleti wants to know, she wants to know why was her skull hacked with a panga?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would not know how to explain this, because the person you speak of is somebody I hope resided in Boipatong.