Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-15

MR HOCKEY: JODAC, Mr Chairperson, is Johannesburg Democratic Action Committee, something to that effect.  A community-based organisation.
	This doesn't ring any bells?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: As far as I saw it in the documentation, yes and I think this is something that would have to be asked from the Regional Manager.

MR HOCKEY: If there was a project to burn out the car of this Jeffrey, would it have been a requirement for you to give authority for such a project?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, it should have been like that.

MR HOCKEY: So you are saying you have no knowledge of this project?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, if I remember correctly I read it in the documentation and I imagine years ago I read about it in the newspapers but it is not a project that was officially authorised by me there could be an interpretation on regional level but the Regional Manager can answer that question.

MR HOCKEY: ...(inaudible) this question, you obviously know Ferdi Barnard as well?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I know him.

MR HOCKEY: And when he was engaged by the CCB he was a convicted murderer?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, I knew his background Chairperson.

MR HOCKEY: ... Krige?  (inaudible).

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes I knew him.

MR HOCKEY: He's got a criminal record?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, well he was detained by the State but he was a soldier who was detained wrongfully and then through the official channels of the Defence Force he got work with us.

MR HOCKEY: Now Mr Verster, besides the two gangsters that you said you were aware of were involved, you're know also aware that other criminals were involved in the - well you were aware in the first place of other criminals that were involved in CCB activities, especially Ferdi Barnard and if Kalla Botha's statement is true then another dealer in dagga and most likely the deductions that this person is a gangster as well, were involved in CCB activities?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct according to the statements but whether Ferdi Barnard was a gangster is another question.

MR HOCKEY: So he was a convicted criminal, he was a murderer?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes that is the case.

MR HOCKEY: Can you tell us, Mr Verster, what the budget was for the ELC project?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I do not know an ELC project.

CHAIRPERSON: ELC project would be the bomb at Athlone Early Learning Centre and if you don't know the exact figure then if you could give us a ball park figure as to what the budget was for that operation, that is the bomb at the creche.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I have no idea Mr Chairperson, I think if you would have to ask the Regional Manager and the Co-ordinator who can give an indication regarding this.

MR HOCKEY: At the time the budget must have passed your hands, is that right?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I would have handled the financial approval, yes Mr Chairperson.

MR HOCKEY: Would it be a correct estimate to say that the total budget was in the region of R100 000?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, if I can see the budget or the documentation relating to this then I will be able to accept it but what the amount is I do not know.

MR HOCKEY: Now I know you're going to say that this was a Section 29 statement of Mr Kalla Botha in bundle B, page 5.  I read from the third last paragraph.  Now if you look at what precedes these paragraph you'll see that it relates to the bombing of the Early Learning Centre project.  Sorry, page 5, in bundle B.

CHAIRPERSON: The third last paragraph.

MR HOCKEY: I will read it for you
"Later that week we met at an hotel.  There I heard that R100 000 had been approved for this project."

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, really, this statement I have no problem approving it to answer in the affirmative but the problem is that this is where all our problems started and this was when Kalla Botha was locked up and this is also hearsay for me, this is a hearsay statement that he is making there.  In other words I cannot approve what Kalla Botha says because I think he made this statement under pressure.

MR HOCKEY: In the circumstances, was that amount reasonable as a budget, a total budget for this project?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, I do not want to base my decision on his statement, on what he said, I would like to see it in front of me.  One has to place it within the context.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Verster what Mr Hockey is asking you now, forget about that statement and the circumstances under which it was made but what Mr Hockey is asking is, as you sit here now, taking into account your past experience with the CCB, would you say that R100 000 would have been a reasonable budget for the Early Learning Centre project?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It's totally out of the question that it could be so little or so much?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I cannot say that but I feel that it is such a hypothetical question because there are a hundred factors and the determination over budget is about what is involved and what has to be done so one would then have to go through the entire plan so that we can continue and in order to continue I could say that it might have been the case and I don't have a problem and it could have been justified whether it is reasonable is hypothetical.

MR HOCKEY: ...(inaudible) the question, does this amount of R100 000 surprise you?  Now, as you're sitting here today, does it surprise you that such an amount was allocated for the bombing of the Early Learning Centre, Mr Verster?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It appears to me as if it could be too much, it does surprise me in a certain sense, Sir.

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me Sir, where you present at the meeting referred to by Kalla Botha?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Excuse me?

MR SIBANYONI: Were you present at the meeting referred to by Kalla Botha?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, I do not think so, I think this was a regional meeting, Sir.

MR HOCKEY: But you were involved in budget discussions for this project?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes Mr Chairperson.  On approval level.

MR HOCKEY: Could you tell us what amount was to be given to the gangster in this case?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No Mr Chairperson, apart from what I had read in the statements I think it was in the region of about R18 or R16 000, I would imagine that.

MR HOCKEY: It was in fact given to him?  Was it possible he was promised more?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, I do not know.  It is not known by me.

MR HOCKEY: Can I refer you to page 44 of bundle B?  This is the statement of Mr van Zyl.  Now I'm going to read to you more or less from the middle of the page
"The evening of 11th September.."
I will just give you the sentence, it's right in the middle of the page:
"The evening of 11th September 1989 Staal Burger gave me the amount of R25 000 in cash in his brother-in-law's flat.  It was approximately 7 o'clock in the evening.  Staal Burger then told me that he budgeted for R30 000 as an amount for Gakie's part in the explosion."
Now can you remember that R30 000 was promised to Gakie, the gangster?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I cannot remember that but in the presentation if it was presented to me it could have been approved in terms of the financial plan, Mr Chairperson.

MR LAX: ...(inaudible) Mr Hockey, from this passage it doesn't say it was promised to him, it was budgeted for.  Just so you don't put the question in the wrong emphasis to the witness.

MR HOCKEY: Thank you, you're hundred percent correct, Mr Lax.
	So it seems if the budget, if this is correct, the budget that was approved, in the budget provision was made according to Mr van Zyl for R30 000 to be given to Mr Gakie Harding.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I can accept it like that.

MR HOCKEY: So it doesn't surprise you?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It could have been because it was very sensitive and it was inside the country so it is possible.