Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-28

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I don't think we are going to achieve anything politically by killing ANC members, that's my view.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And taking your view further, when you decided and took arms and went to attack and you did attack you didn't seem to achieve anything political?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: This particular question at the time I didn't know exactly what we are going to achieve, however, I knew that we were trying to protect ourselves at the particular time.  And I knew that when fight for the struggle maybe we are going to achieve something and I don't know whether the attack was going to benefit the people or the organisation.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now from - as you have said, what makes you say that the acts committed by yourself were politically motivated?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: The reason why I made an application for amnesty it was put clear that it should be strictly clear whether we did it under political influence so I put my application as an IFP member and I knew that what I did was towards the ANC members and I knew that we were fighting at that time as a political organisations.  That's why I thought there was a political motive in that way.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Will I be correct Mr Gumbi if I said to you that the issue of the acts being politically motivated came into your mind after the attacks were made?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I won't agree with that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: On the day of the incident how many of your people were killed?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: On that particular day I said one person in our camp was injured, he didn't die.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I see.  One person was injured and you went out and killed close to 12 people, as against one injured, do you find that to be fair?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I don't think that when we were attacking each other we could systematically specify so and so, so much number of people should be injured when we attack because we were just attacking and we didn't have a target or a quota which we had to achieve by killing like when you kill two on the other side two must be killed on the other side.  So we were just fighting.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You testified that on this day your attackers, the people who started attacking you first attacked you at about three and four p.m. am I right?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Yes I said so.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you saw these people?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I couldn't see the people while they were shooting because I was running.  However I saw people, a group of people shooting.  And I should specifically mention that this wasn't the first time.  There were repeated incidents of attacks.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was it repeated incidents of attacks by the same people?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Yes I would say it was one, these very same people because they will attack and the situation will arise where we end up, there is a confrontation and we have to fight each other and that person was near my home.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you report any of these attacks to the Police Force?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: People who were involved in such incidents did report the matter to the Police because the Police knew about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Well were you involved in any of these incidents?  Did you report them?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Can you repeat the question please?

CHAIRPERSON: Were you involved in any of these incidents and did you report them?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: To report where, where to report such incidents?

CHAIRPERSON: You have just said that the people involved reported them to the police, I am now asking you if you were a person involved and whether you reported to the police?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Yes I got the question clear.  I didn't report any of the cases to the police because specifically to this particular incident we didn't have much time to go and report the matter because the way to the police station you have to go and pass the very same people whom we were attacking.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not asking you about the day in question, I am asking you about what you have said in evidence that this was not the first time, there were repeated incidents of attacks.

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I didn't report any of the incidences because I was still a child at that time.  There might have been people who were old enough, the headman, who could have gone to the police to report that these people are getting attacked.  I personally didn't report.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Amongst your attackers were there children?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Yes there were youth.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were there children of age below 10?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I won't give a very clear answer but I will say children were also involved but I won't be able to tell whether their ages were under 10 but they were young children and also some other people were involved too.  They were mixed during the attacks.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is it possible for you to give us an estimate age-wise of children who were involved with your attackers?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: You mean just to give an estimation?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes.

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I will say from nine years upwards.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you would not be able to give a reason why even a three year-old was killed, not so?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: The reason why young children were killed is something that I don't understand even now and I don't think I was of the view that children should be killed because I know that young children don't know anything about politics or what is happening in the community.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now in the group that attacked you were there women?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Are you referring to women who support them?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No, a group who was attacking you, did you see women amongst the group, people who were attacking you were they women?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I will be lying, I didn't see women.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Why were women killed then?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I won't know as to why women were killed. However, as I explained that we were different as to how we perceive things or the struggle.  Some people wanted to kill women.  I personally, I don't know why they decided to do that because I personally I couldn't do it.  Even if I might have done it I would have done it against my conscience.

CHAIRPERSON: The first place you attacked, as I understand you, was the Dlamini's house, that was a place you knew well, you used to play football near there, is that correct?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And I see from the indictment that among those killed were Thlangisile Happy Dlamini, a 20 year-old woman; Malu Els Dlamini, a 16 year-old girl and Emily Dlamini a 60 year-old woman, did you know these people?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Yes I knew Thlangisile because we attended the same school.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they live in this home that was the first one you attacked?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Yes, I think they were inside the house because those were people we discovered to be injured in the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Two young girls killed and the old woman, an attempt made to kill her.  The very first place you attacked at about 6:30, is that correct?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: I am not sure about the time but it was becoming dark.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes it was the first place you attacked, is that so?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: Yes it was the Dlamini family.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if you didn't want to kill women, if you were opposed to it, why didn't you go home then, why did you go on taking part in these attacks for six or more hours?

MDUDUZI M GUMBI: My continued involvement in the attack was not with the aim of killing women, I didn't intend to kill women.  The reason why I joined in the attack it was because I knew we had to go and kill those ANC males who were fighting against us and not women and I would like to insist that when women got attacked it was by mistake, we didn't intend to attack them.  And as I have explained we didn't have the same conscience with regards to whether we should kill women or not.