Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct, yes.

ADV BOOYENS: And up to paragraph 12?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: What you mentioned here, did you obtain that 
from literature and your own experience on the ground as a Security 
Policeman, in other words was it only theory or was it also 
happening in practice?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was happening in practice and I also got this 
from literature.

ADV BOOYENS: On page 12 you deal with the extension of the 
structures and the New Year's message of 1986, and the combat 
units of MK who launched attacks on strategic targets, is that 
correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: In paragraph 13, I think the word police officers 
should be added because in that list, the people that were killed 
were also warders and people like that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you obtain these details from murder and 
robbery documentation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, from their registers.

ADV BOOYENS: Perhaps we can just tell the Committee, I have 
forgotten for a moment that the Committee members are not from 
Port Elizabeth so we can just go through KwaZakhele, that is Port 
Elizabeth district?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Page 309, Swartkops, that is also a police 
station here?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: The same goes for New Brighton?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Adelaide is not in Port Elizabeth, is it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It is in the Eastern Cape, yes.

ADV BOOYENS: And then we have Swartkops again.  And then 
13.1.13 there is a Grahamstown incident?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is Eastern Cape.

ADV BOOYENS: Cradock is also in the Eastern Cape, although 
the case was in the Somerset East, that is the Eastern Cape?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Once again KwaZakhele.  Paragraph 14, there 
you deal with the damage to police vehicles and an amount is 
mentioned there, that is obviously in terms of the money in those 
years?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you have any personal knowledge of attacks 
on police officers and that the homes were burnt down?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: In paragraph 15 you deal with the political 
intimidation and the economical intimidation which deals with the 
intimidation of black councillors, consumer boycotts and the rent 
boycotts, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: The boycott against the councillors caused a 
large number of them to resign as you've set out there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: And you mention the specific case of Mr Linda 
whose business was burnt down?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: In paragraph 17 you deal with the consumer 
boycott and in paragraph 18, you deal with the unemployment 
situation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: If we can just get the statistics here, these you 
obtained from Manpower?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And those were only the unemployment cases 
that were actually registered?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: In paragraph 19 you talk about the Amabutu, 
what is that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is a terminology which was used, to mean 
the army of the people.

ADV BOOYENS: And annexure 14 to which you refer, is on page 
389 is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: On page 316, that is page 21 of the record, you 
state that you are applying for amnesty for the murder and other 
offences relating to those four people there mentioned?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Particulars which may be of importance here are 
the following.  For how long had you known Mgoduka, Faku, 
Mapipa and Jack?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Warrant Officer Glen Mgoduka had worked for 
the Security Branch since 1977 and he worked with me.  We shared 
an office along with Mr Marx.  Mr Faku joined the Security Branch 
in 1980, and he was also part of my Unit, that is the black affairs 
unit.
	Mapipa joined later, in 1986 when a special investigation team 
was established as result of the state of emergency which had been 
declared, that is the state of emergency of 1986.
	Charles Jack was a trained person whom we used as an 
informer and he later gave evidence in several court cases and at a 
later stage during 1983/1984 he then joined us permanently at our 
Branch.

ADV BOOYENS: I think the term is commonly known here, he was 
an askari?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Right.

ADV BOOYENS: In other words a person who was trained as an 
MK and then was turned to work for you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And then at page 316 you deal with issues with 
which we will have to deal with more thoroughly, from page 316, 
you deal with the circumstances which reigned and which gave rise 
to the death of the deceased.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: I think it would be a good thing if you 
commented on the fact that you were the Regional Commander of 
the Intelligence Unit.  Perhaps you can explain the structure of the 
Security Police from 1983 onwards.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairman, in 1983 the Security Branch 
component consisted of the Commanding Officer.  After General 
Erasmus left Port Elizabeth in 1983 and he went to Johannesburg a 
Colonel Snyman took over as Commanding Officer and there was a 
Unit that deal with black affairs of which Colonel Du Plessis was the 
Commander.
	There were also the Indian, coloured and technical and trade 
union components.  After 1983 after I had become an officer, I was 
in charge of all information or intelligence and the coordination of 
that intelligence, viz a vie all the organisations.  The four deceased 
Mgoduka, Faku, Mapipa and Charles Jack were under my command.

ADV BOOYENS: You said four, you mean three?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, three at that stage.  In 1986 I was 
transferred to the Special Investigation team who deal with the 
investigation into emergency regulations issues.  In June Mapipa, the 
third deceased joined us.
	At that stage Sergeant Faku and Mapipa were part of that 
investigation team.  During June of 1989 I was the Regional 
Coordinator of the Eastern Cape region and it also included East 
London at that stage.
	And we coordinated the intelligence component which was 
actually an extension of the Intelligence component of the Security 
Branch and it was under the command of Brigadier Gilbert.

ADV BOOYENS: What was the function of the Intelligence Unit, 
what was your job?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Intelligence gathering, the maintaining of 
updated intelligence, the perceptions that existed and the data bases 
we had relating to this information, which we obtained.

ADV BOOYENS: You say that your tasks were set out in the 
Police Act, very broadly speaking, I don't think it is necessary to go 
into that.  Paragraph 3, 3.1 creation, extension and maintenance of a 
covert intelligence capacity in respect of internal as well as foreign 
intelligence networks, please explain to us in layman's terms what 
are you talking about here?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: We didn't have offices at the Security Branch 
per se we had our own facilities, such as safe premises, operating 
centres.  Part of our duty was to gather intelligence relating to 
covert actions and we operated under cover in that respect.

ADV BOOYENS: In the process, you made use of agents and those 
kinds of persons?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is correct.