Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR MOOSA: I take it then that a silencer was not used?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct, otherwise I would not have heard the shot.

MR MOOSA: I put it to you that it's highly unlikely that a silencer would not be used to execute Mr Kondile.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I cannot recall it very well but I cannot think that they used a silencer.

MR MOOSA: You say that you are unable to recall dates, tell me how you are able to recall the name of Sergeant Otto?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I said that it was a person that I met at the scene and I later refreshed my memory, I remembered the name Roy Otto.

MR MOOSA: When you refreshed your memory was it with the aid of your co-applicants, that is Mr van Rensburg, Mr Erasmus and Mr du Plessis?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.  I think I asked one of them whether they could recall who the man was.  I gave a description of the man to you and they, one of them, said that this was Mr Otto and the name rang a bell.

MR MOOSA: I take it that was the first time you met Mr Otto during this transaction in Komatipoort?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

MR MOOSA: We have heard evidence about various meetings before statements were compiled, were you at any one of those meetings?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

MR MOOSA: Did you read Mr du Plessis' statement before you signed yours?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

MR MOOSA: You just went ahead and signed your statement?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: After I went to my legal representatives I compiled my statement and I signed it.

MR MOOSA: You have described in your evidence your background and what you thought about what you called terrorists, am I right?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

MR MOOSA: You have also told us though that you averted your eyes and tried not to see what was going on, and in fact that you were shocked?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

MR MOOSA: I will put it to you that that is actually unlikely that you would do that.  You would more likely have enjoyed every moment of what you saw.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is completely untrue.

MR MOOSA: And that is why you would have gone back and bragged to Mr Danster and everyone else possibly how the man's brains were splattered.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is absolutely untrue.

MR MOOSA: At the end of your statement as also at the end of your evidence today you told us that you were doing what you did in the execution of your duties as a policeman.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes and I worked under instructions.

MR MOOSA: Well working under instructions or not what you did was totally unlawful and it's not what is supposed to be done by a policeman it's a criminal act.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I understand that that it's illegal but I did this in the execution of my duties and I think that I have testified to this effect.

MR MOOSA: I put it to you that from the viewpoint of my clients there is no political motive whatsoever that will ever justify what you have done.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: It was absolutely a political motivation.

MR MOOSA: And that even if there were any political motives you would have exceeded the bounds you were allowed to go to.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I don't believe that I exceeded the bounds, I worked under instructions.

MR MOOSA: Finally it's our contention that you have not made full disclosure to this Committee but a part of a massive cover-up and the versions given by Mr Coetzee and Mr Danster are more probable.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is why I came here to tell the truth.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOOSA

MR NYOKA: Two minutes again Mr Chairman.  I will ask for amnesty if I go beyond.
	Mr Raath when you went to fetch the vehicle of Mr Kondile from Bloemfontein were you not given any of those false documentations that he was alleged to have used in crossing into the country?  As now he was going to be detained as well in PE or Humansdorp.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No your Honour.

MR NYOKA: What did he have in his possession when you were transporting him to the Eastern Cape?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: If I remember correctly he had nothing with him, no suitcase, nothing, or any documentation.

MR NYOKA: And you did not find any weapons or pamphlets in his possession?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

MR NYOKA: My instructions are that Mr Kondile was kidnapped from Lesotho, he did not cross as alleged, not by you by other policemen, hence you could not find anything with him, he had no clothing.  He was abducted.  Do you dispute that stance?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Your Honour I don't know anything about an abduction.

MR NYOKA: Finally just in Volume 2, page 169 I would like you to turn to 169, Volume 2, there's a name on top, Phakamile Xlamile, this person was a close friend of mine, he skipped with Mr Kondile in 1980 and he has informed me to tell you that as now he's in the Easter Cape Provincial Government, Safety and Security, that Mr Kondile would never cross into the country with a vehicle. The two of them would infiltrate by swimming across the river as they had done before.  Mr Kondile will swim across the river with him, Mr Xlamile.

UNKNOWN: Well Mr Chairman what is the status of this question, on what is it based?  Is this man going to come and give evidence, is my learned friend giving the evidence, what is the status of this, with all due respect?

CHAIRPERSON: (...indistinct)

MR NYOKA: I am putting it to you the family waited for 16 years, I have got to put this.  This is not just a one week affair.  The family has been sitting on this for 16 years.  He has said that Mr Kondile infiltrated the country with him by swimming across, that he crossed with a vehicle is a figment of everybody's imagination, we are saying so.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Your Honour I can't comment on this.  I don't know anything about that.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS OR COMMENTS BY MR NYOKA

MR MARAIS: (?)   I don't know if Mr Jansen, Advocate Jansen ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You do it first.

MR MARAIS: Thanks Mr Chairman.
	You got information from Mr Kondile is that correct, that's now you personally?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes that's correct.

MR MARAIS: How did you succeed in doing this?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: By interrogating him.

MR MARAIS: Is that all, did you just ask him to give you information and he gave you the information?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No it was not that easy.

MR MARAIS: Can you tell the Commission what you did, how you did it?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: If there was a subject regarding which interrogation was done I asked him about.  And then he was questioned about that, depending on what the information was.

MR MARAIS: Now we know about the information regarding the people in the bank, you were also involved when that was obtained?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

MR MARAIS: The information was merely obtained by methods of interrogation, there was no pressure exerted on him or anything else, is that what you are saying?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

MR MARAIS: If it would have happened then you would have known about it, not so?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

MR MARAIS: And he wasn't promised anything either?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: With his recruitment Capt du Plessis might have promised him something, I do not know what.  I don't know what he discussed with him.

MR MARAIS: So you don't know at all what Captain du Plessis, what he interrogated him about.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: He tasked him as an informer and from his interrogation and from mine we put the answers together and we reacted on that.

MR MARAIS: So was he interrogated on his own, then he would come back to you and say that he had obtained that information?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes our interrogation was bound in a bundle and we made notes.  We knew what had happened with each other's interrogation, we worked together as a team.