Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: I am not entirely certain about that, but what I was going to say to Mr Joseph, is that we are labouring under a misapprehension.  We thought that you are going to be able to complete whatever it was that you wanted to do, in the five minutes allocated, but then if it is that you are wanting to go on a little further, I had said in the beginning, right in the beginning of this that because we want to finish, five minutes would be about the time.
 I mean flexible, and when you raised your hand, we thought we are going to adjourn in five minutes time.  Now, maybe you should go ahead and let's try and be able to have finished to you before we break.

MR JOSEPH: Allow me to press this question one more time.  These words that you admit you uttered, what did you intend by these words?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I gave you my answer.

MR JOSEPH: I haven't heard it, would you repeat it.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I gave you my answer, I told you I was describing the situation at the time.  If you don't like it, too bad.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.  Mrs Mandela, I think you have conducted yourself with dignity and I do not want for this hearing to degenerate into playing to galleries.  It is important because we are not playing games here, we are about very serious issues.
 And it would be good and I think very dignified to say this is your answer, I don't think that your last words are appropriate.  I don't think that that is so and I will not allow that to happen.  Please when you are asked a question, you either answer yes, no, whatever, but I don't think that we want sarcasms or any of this sort, please.
 I want this to be reasonably friendly hearing, it is about very serious matters and I think that when you have answered with dignity, you have been able to carry it.  It is when it appears as if one is seeking to play to galleries, and that applies to all of us.
 Nobody here should be trying to score points just gratuitously, so if you could, please answer the question.  If he seeks you to repeat it, repeat it and that should be the full stop you put.  I don't want to be engaging in perhaps rebuking, I don't want to rebuke anybody.
 Where are you now.  You've got the answer that the witness wants to give.

MR JOSEPH: Well, I then appeal to you as the Chairman, to say that this is not an answer to the question.  This is not an answer to the question.  It can be Mr Chairman, and I mean this with great respect, it can be that we sit here for five minutes, you really get no assistance from - myself and my learned friends, nothing at all.  In five minutes we can do nothing.

CHAIRPERSON: You have had more than five minutes.

MR JOSEPH: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: You've had more than five minutes.

MR JOSEPH: Of cross-examination?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  It is actually nearly 15 minutes.

MR JOSEPH: And we haven't got an answer to one question.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you know you try again and try and give an answer.  We would have to sit down and say are we satisfied.  I can say to you perhaps it is not the answer you expect, it is not the answer, but that is the answer she gives.

MR JOSEPH: You see, cross-examination is a little more than the cross-examiner just accepting an answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to say apart from just describing, when you made it and I accept that in the heat of the moment, we may say very many things, but what was your intention?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: (Indistinct) intention, I made that statement to describe the times then.

MR JOSEPH: It is not descriptive, the language you used, you are exhorting people to do something to achieve an end.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I am telling you I didn't do so.

MR JOSEPH: You didn't intend it?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: If your understanding is that, then of course it is your understanding.  I am telling you I described the situation of the time.  You are wanting me to give an analysis of your choice.
 I did not intend anything, I was describing the situation, the political situation in the country at the time.  Things that were happening at the time.  Now you can interpret it the way you want because you have that democratic right to do so.

MR JOSEPH: So, together hand, in hand, with our boxes of matches and our necklaces ...

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, with respect, this is just politicking.

CHAIRPERSON: I think I have said, let me - can you please yes.

MR JOSEPH: My learned friend, Mr Vally quoted to you from your maiden speech in parliament, do you remember that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I do.

MR JOSEPH: And your interpretation of the language you used then, was that you rescued the boys from my house.  You rescued the boys from your own house, that was your answer.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: As you say.

MR JOSEPH: Is that correct, is that an interpretation?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I gave that interpretation that at that time I was referring to removing them handing them over to Dr Motlana, to take them to Bishop Storey.

MR JOSEPH: If my learned friend could just refer to that speech again, let's just have the language of that speech?  So your interpretation of the language you used in parliament, had something to do with rescuing the boys from your own house and handing them over to Dr Motlana?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, because allegations were all over about them being detained there against their will.

MR JOSEPH: The ordinary reader or ordinary listener, would he or she heard the words, which the learned friend, Mr Vally will now repeat, they understood it to mean that you rescued these people from your house and you gave them to Dr Motlana?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You are requesting me to interpret the readership?  I am unable to do that, I have just given you my answer.  I am telling you that was reference to my house.

CHAIRPERSON: Actually, can you just ...

MR JOSEPH: Read it.

UNKNOWN: I will read the sentence Archbishop.  When a report was made to me that there were youths who were being sexually abused, I unhesitatingly fell in with the plans to rescue them and gave them refuge in my house.

MR JOSEPH: Rescue them from where?

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, may I request that answer to be settled ... (tape ends) ... and my learned colleague would concede that is how the record stands, and now that it is quoted without context, it is leading perhaps, unfortunately to the type of cross-examination that is emanating.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the only thing is that I would concede the point that you are making.  Mrs Madikizela-Mandela probably didn't hear herself, when she was answering she did say something about rescuing from her own house and I think that that was a bit strange.

MR JOSEPH: Here are lots of help.  Your interpretation of that excerpt from your maiden speech of parliament, was interpreted by you to be understood by the reader or the listener to mean that you rescued the youths from your house.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, can that ...

CHAIRPERSON: I think, all right, you say ...

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: What is your problem?

MR SEMENYA: Can the excerpts and the context under which that answer was given be read to the witness and let her respond therefrom?

CHAIRPERSON: What I want to suggest is that we have not in fact been able to finish with Mr Joseph, that we take this break and if you could help to have the particular transcript made available to the relevant people, will you do that.
 Order please, I have not yet asked that you can leave.  We will resume two o'clock.
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