Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-29

CHAIRPERSON: And in that paragraph you understood that there you said there were no real orders given to commit any of these crimes, that it was something that you agreed with, is that not so?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yet, despite that, that being an affidavit that has been commissioned, you tell your attorney yes, there was an order.

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now are you able to explain that, or can't you?

PAULUS MTHWANA: What are you referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: The conflict between what you said in  your affidavit and what you told your attorney.  You see, it's important for us to know whether there was an order or not, why you acted the way you did.  Now in your own evidence, your own papers there's a conflict as to whether there existed an order or not.

PAULUS MTHWANA: There is not much I can say, but there is something mentioned on page 12 about order, I just tried to explain.

CHAIRPERSON: What about it?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Page 12 explains about Saga Gumede and what happened with regards to this case.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Mohamed.

MR LAX: Can I just raise one other small thing?  Sorry.  In your 2nd affidavit, the one that you made to your lawyer, you make no mention of Ncumalo at all.  Why is that?  If he was present when this order was given and if you were trying now to correct the mistakes that you'd made in your correcting affidavit, why did you leave him out of the picture completely?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I understand your question.  I was just explaining that Mr Ncumalo was at the meeting.

MR LAX: Just before we finish, on page 12, the third affidavit now, this was a further attempt by Mr Mbatha to correct your previous affidavits and get further information from you, isn't that so?

PAULUS MTHWANA: That's correct.

MR LAX: Now here you say Saga Gumede was one of the ANC members, was one of the victims, he's now deceased.  Another of the victims was Zwe Ntuni from Road 18.  That's the very same deceased we heard about in the previous matter, isn't it?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes.

MR LAX: So weren't you just part of these gangs that were operating there in Chesterville at that time, as we've heard from the last case?  One gang fighting another gang?  Isn't that so?

PAULUS MTHWANA: No, I was just a member of the community.

MR LAX: Carry on.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you.  Mr Mthwana isn't it correct that you came to our offices for a consultation last Wednesday the 23rd of August?

PAULUS MTHWANA: That's correct.

MS MOHAMED: Isn't it also correct that at that consultation I handed a copy of this bundle to you?

PAULUS MTHWANA: That's correct.

MS MOHAMED: So you retained a copy?

PAULUS MTHWANA: That's correct.

MS MOHAMED: Okay.  Now isn't it also correct that the two page statement which I have handed to the Committee prior to the commencement of this hearing, was given to you earlier this morning for you to read and to verify the contents?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes, that's correct.

MS MOHAMED: And isn't it also correct that after reading same and saying to me that you understood it, you signed it?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes, I understood it and signed it.

MS MOHAMED: Okay thank you. I'm now going to take you back to this incident, the 6th of February 93.  You earlier said to us that you were in the vicinity of First National Bank in Pinetown and you approached a white female and you had a firearm with you.  Can you tell us what happened at that stage?

PAULUS MTHWANA: On the 6th of February 1993, I and Nhlanhla Gumede took a vehicle from the vicinity of FNB in Pinetown, to collect firearms in Pietermaritzburg.  The car was found on the 8th.

MS MOHAMED: Okay now when you and Mr Gumede got into the car, where did you go to?

PAULUS MTHWANA: We then collected Saga Gumede and proceeded to go get the firearms.

MS MOHAMED: Now why was it necessary for you to collect Saga Gumede to go with you?

MR LAX: You're speaking English, so you're not going to get a translation.  To repeat, he said:  "As a main man, he knew eMbali township"

MS MOHAMED: When you reached eMbali, what happened?

PAULUS MTHWANA: We collected the firearms and returned.

MS MOHAMED: Did you know the person from whom you collected the firearms?

PAULUS MTHWANA: No, I did not know him.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, do you know that there was gang warfare in the area also at that time?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I do not have knowledge thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know about gang warfare in the area?   You say you were an activist ...(intervention)

PAULUS MTHWANA: What I know is about the A Team, who were opponents of the political organisation in the area.

MR LAX: You see Mr Mthwana, the A Team operated in 1980's, we know all about the A Team.  We've heard hundreds of people talk ...

PAULUS MTHWANA: I would like just ...(indistinct) that they did not stop operating in the township.  I know about the A Team and I can explain better about it.

MR LAX: Did you not hear the evidence this morning, both from the applicant and from the family of the deceased, talking about the different gangs and the fact that they were fighting with one another?  Remember?  You were here.

PAULUS MTHWANA: I was not listening to them.

MR LAX: Are you telling us that you didn't know that was happening in Chesterville, while you were living in Chesterville and you were an ANC martial?

PAULUS MTHWANA: What concerns me is my application here, what they were talking about had nothing to do with me.

CHAIRPERSON: Just answer the question, don't be technical now.

MR LAX: The fact of the matter is that it's a well-known fact that there was gang violence in a number of the townships including Chesterville, including Lamontville, including Umhlazi.  It's a well-known fact and you didn't know that.

PAULUS MTHWANA: As far as I know, I'm only aware of what took place in Chesterville with regards to the political situation.

MR LAX: What structure were you part of in Chesterville?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I was a member of the UDF from 1983 when it was launched.  I played a role in COSAS which was under the banner of UDF because there were many organisations, including church organisations under the UDF.

MR LAX: I'm talking about ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not asking you for your history.  When you committed this offence under what structure were you acting, if any?

PAULUS MTHWANA: It was the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: And that meeting, you say now you were ordered, what meeting was that?

PAULUS MTHWANA: It was a special meeting at which the issue of protecting the community was discussed.

CHAIRPERSON: What meeting was that?

PAULUS MTHWANA: A member of the Executive Committee of the ANC was present, so I was not in a position to ask such questions.

MR LAX: So it was just a meeting called by Mr Gumede.

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes.

MR LAX: Because he was an Executive member of the ANC you just decided, well that's it?  You haven't heard of the Self Defence Units that were organised in all the different townships around Durban, around 'Maritzburg, up and down the North and South Coast?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I've heard of them.

MR LAX: But you weren't part of the Self Defence Unit, otherwise you would have told us that.

PAULUS MTHWANA: I was a Martial.

MR LAX: Yes.  Well the people who were involved in defending the community were the Self Defence Units and from 1991, they were very organised.

PAULUS MTHWANA: I know about the SDUs, they were operating at other areas.  It is true that they protected people against the IFP in Lindelane and other areas.

MR LAX: Mr Mthwana, the ANC organised SDUs in almost every township in this province where they had a presence and in some cases, those SDUs were organised on existing SDUs that had been in existence from 1985 because of the violence in this province.  In others they established new ones.  That's a historical fact.  The fact is, you weren't part of such a structure.

PAULUS MTHWANA: I was.

CHAIRPERSON: The SDU?