Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

MR MADLALA: There were other people who were searched.  I could say not that all of them were searched, because Mr Jama was resisting and he was stubborn, he didn't want to be searched, so I could say that the search didn't continue to the other members of the group.  It stopped when Jama was resisting to be searched and attention was focused on him at that point and then especially when he made these utterances that the police should be killed in the very same manner that the IFP was killed.  And when I told Mr Harrington I wanted him to know that here is another person who was making an admission.  Because it was a usual occurrence for us at the office to talk about ANC members and how to harass them as IFP members.  We were always told that we should deal with them accordingly whenever we came across them, especially because we knew that the cases were never dealt with.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why was the deceased in particular singled out and put into the van?

MR MADLALA: I think Jama was taken because he was resisting the search and he was fighting and he made this utterance.  I think that's what made him to be singled out.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why was he killed?
1B - 11.2

MR MADLALA: /...
JUDGE NGOEPE	101	MR MADLALA

MR MADLALA: He was killed because he was one of the people involved during the IFP massacre.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Had he not been so involved are you saying that he would not have been killed, according to you?

MR MADLALA: I wouldn't be positive on that aspect.  But when he spoke or uttered these words we were even more aggressive with him and we just wanted to torture, assault and harass him as a member of the ANC, and probably would have released him later on just like the other ANC people.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The deceased's alleged involvement in the previous killing of the IFP supporters is given such prominent by yourself in your evidence and yet neither Mr Harrington nor Mr Erasmus referred to it ... (CHANGE-OVER TO TAPE 2A)

MR MADLALA: I think it didn't receive prominent as far as they were concerned because it was something that we always spoke about.  Mr Harrington and Erasmus themselves, especially all the people who were inside the van, they knew that we should get the ANC people who committed the massacre or who were involved in the massacre.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You heard yesterday Mr Harrington said he could not even recall at all you telling him that the deceased says that he was involved in the previous killing of IFP people.

MR MADLALA: Yes, I did hear him giving testimony.  I think it is because it is a long time since it happened, probably he had forgotten.  I spoke to him in English.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: With regard to the throttling of the deceased and the banging of his head on the rocks, it happened while all of you were there, isn't it?

MR MADLALA: Yes, that is true, because from the time that
2A - 11.2	he/...
JUDGE NGOEPE	102	MR MADLALA
he was taken out - from the time that the van was being driven, Mr Harrington started throttling Jama whilst we were inside the van together with the others who were in the van.  They kept on participating in the assault and when we got to the forest we were all standing when Mr Jama was being hit against the rocks.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I am not sure Mr Erasmus's evidence with regard to the banging of the head is concerned.   I am not sure what his evidence was, but would it surprise you if he were to say that he did not see that?

MR MADLALA: I would agree with Erasmus because immediately after they told him not to shoot or use that gun, it was quite a distance.  Erasmus was not near us.  He was quite a distance from the scene of the incident.  I would agree with you if he says he did not see what had actually happened.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I thought you said it occurred while all of you were there, which was my previous question.

MR MADLALA: Yes, we were present at that time, but Erasmus was a distance because he was not involved in quite a lot of harassment.  He only slapped him across the face and he sort of distanced himself thereafter.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Erasmus's evidence he gave us yesterday talks about wanting to shoot Jama and then says "Harrington en Madlala is agter hom aan.  Ons res het hulle toe gevolg", (The rest of us then followed)  Which would seem that he was there.

MR MADLALA: When this happened, when Mbongeni tried to run, when Mr Harrington was trying to get him out of the van that's when Jama tried to stand up and run and that's where Erasmus pulled out his gun.  But he did not immediately follow.  But Mr Harrington was at the front running after
2A - 11.2	Jama/...
JUDGE WILSON	103	MR MADLALA
Jama, then thereafter it was me and another group.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You said Erasmus also gave chase.

MR MADLALA: I did not say that.  Erasmus did not run after Mr Jama.  Maybe he might have come thereafter.  What I remember is that I was No 2 after Harrington.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ... want Mr Erasmus not to be so stupid as to shoot, where were they?  Were they not busy chasing the deceased?

MR MADLALA: At the time it was when Mr Jama was getting off from the ground and trying to run.  That is when Mr Harrington hadn't yet followed Mr Jama.  Maybe Mr Jama ran for about 500 metres before Harrington decided to give chase.  It could be a distance from here up to the houses that I am pointing.  It is only then that we decided to run after Jama.  Because when Jama was running, he was running haphazardly to show that he was now powerless and he could not run further.

JUDGE WILSON: It should perhaps be indicated that the houses that he is pointing out was somewhere between 100 and 150 metres away.

MR MADLALA: I do understand that.

ADV DE JAGER: When was this massacre of the IFP people, how long before this incident?

MR MADLALA: It was just before we came across Jama.

ADV DE JAGER: Months or weeks or days?

MR MADLALA: If I remember quite well, I think it was only four weeks and after that four weeks that's where we came across Jama.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you in fact know when the ANC was unbanned?

MR MADLALA: No, I have no idea.
2A - 11.2

ADV DE JAGER: /...
ADV DE JAGER	104	MR MADLALA

ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't know whether that massacre was after the unbanning or before the unbanning?

MR MADLALA: No, I really would not know whether those people were killed after the unbanning or before the unbanning.

ADV DE JAGER: You heard about the unbanning during or after your court case.

MR MADLALA: I only heard of it during the case immediately after we got bail, because the case was remanded for about a year.

ADV DE JAGER: ... did you hear of it then?

MR MADLALA: Yes, I heard that it had been unbanned and there was going to be a new government and a government of democracy.

ADV DE JAGER: Even after you heard that, did the killing of IFP members or ANC members, vice versa, did it stop then or did it still continue?

MR MADLALA: I personally stopped during that time.  Even now in gaol we are with other members of the ANC and we are living harmoniously.

ADV DE JAGER: In gaol you are living harmoniously, and outside, what's the position, do you know or don't you know?

MR MADLALA: Well, let me just relate this instance, because when we went to the Truth Commission for the first time when they were discussing the Seven Day War, and when I was going to Ashdown to show them where the police shot people, we discovered that people in Mpumuza were now also living in peace, that is the IFP members as well as the ANC members, there was relative calm in the area.