Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR STEPHENS: What page is that one?

SISI KHAMPEPE: That's on page 2529.

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Berger has just put it to you that that's what you said during the inquest, that you saw approximately 10 blue uniformed Policemen standing in the area of the intersection of King George and De Villiers before the marchers got there.  And you say it was before the marchers got there.

MR STEPHENS: Okay, which is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now my question is, how soon did you notice the marchers converging at that corner, after you had observed the 10 blue uniformed Policemen you've alluded here at page 2529?

MR STEPHENS: I can't recall, it might - don't know, can't recall.  Because the lead-up to the marchers coming down, I saw Policemen in the street.  Whether they were at the top there, in the street I saw the Policemen.  When the actual march started when they crossed De Villiers, I never saw any Policemen after that, I can't recall seeing any policemen after that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you not even able to assist us in approximating in terms of seconds or minutes, or hours?

MR STEPHENS: No, because as you can see, the time that I mentioned before, I've been held to that time now, where at the time I wasn't sure what time it was, and I just took a guess at 30 minutes, maybe give or take, and I wasn't sure.  And I'm not sure, I can't say any minutes, otherwise I'm gonna be held again to it, and I am not sure.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MR STEPHENS: Because it actually says here, and I don't understand where Mr Berger - where the confusion is coming in.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MR LAX: The impression I get from the evidence that's been put to you about what you said at the inquest, is that these policemen were watching the marchers, doing nothing, when you noticed them.

MR STEPHENS: That's correct.

MR LAX: Now where were the marchers at that point, were they at the intersection already ...

MR STEPHENS: Of De Villiers, yes.

MR LAX: So they'd obviously got to that intersection, they were static at that point, and the Policemen were watching them.

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR LAX: Because then they go on to ask you whether they intervened in some way, and you say no, not that you can remember, etc.

MR STEPHENS: Not that I saw, no.

MR LAX: And then after that the shooting happened?

MR STEPHENS: Correct, once they crossed the street - by then the Police had moved up towards the marchers.  Maybe that's when - like Mr Berger says, they did try and stop them, I don't know.  In that - maybe it was a question of 5/10 seconds where they were holding their hands up and telling the guys not to march.  I might have been looking away in those 5/10 seconds, that's why I never saw it.

MR LAX: Just in terms of time, and not to pin you down, this is not the exercise, we're trying to get your help here, but we're talking more in terms of tens of seconds rather than tens of minutes?

MR STEPHENS: Quite right, one or two minutes, something like that, yes.

MR LAX: Thanks.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Stephens, there is no confusion on your evidence, your evidence at the inquest was, and I'll do it very briefly, 2529, you saw approximately 10 blue uniformed policemen at that intersection of King George and De Villiers before the marchers got there.

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: You say correct.

MR STEPHENS: That's right.

MR BERGER: Then I asked you
"And where they still there when the marchers reached De Villiers Street?"

MR STEPHENS: I said "I cannot recall that."

MR BERGER: Correct.

MR STEPHENS: No, not correct, "I cannot recall that." - sorry.

MR BERGER: And then over the page 2530, I continued to ask you, I said, confirming what you had already just said
"And when the group got to De Villiers, ..." this is at the top of 2530.

MR STEPHENS: Yip.

MR BERGER: "... you cannot recall seeing any Policemen in the vicinity of the group?"
		Answer:  "No, there were - I do not know.  What I can remember is there were a couple of Police there, whether they moved around the corner or they went away, I do not know."

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: Then the Court said
"There were a couple of Police where?  What is - you seem to have a picture in your mind of Policemen."
Your answer:  
"Say four, say two or three on either side of King George, three on the east side, and two or three on the west side."

MR STEPHENS: Yip.

MR BERGER: Question from me
"Standing there looking at the marchers?"   Answer:  "Basically yes."
Now it's quite clear what you are saying, two or three blue uniformed Policemen on the west side of King George, three blue uniformed Policemen on the east side of King George - all of this is happening at the intersection of De Villiers when the marchers are there and the Policemen are just looking at the marchers, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Ja, that was before the march, because if you go to page 2529 which is still part of the questioning, it says
"And were they still there when the marchers reached De Villiers Street?"
And I said:  
"I cannot recall that because I was looking more at the marchers than the Police."
And this is all in the same questioning, you can't just take a little context out and say okay, now that's the answer for it, you got to look at the whole thing, and that was part of the - this is continuing from 2529.

MR BERGER: Mr Stephens, if you look at the top of 2530,

MR STEPHENS: Yip.

MR BERGER: I used your words when I said "when the group got to De Villiers Street, you cannot recall seeing any Policemen in the vicinity of the group".

MR STEPHENS: And I said "no".

MR BERGER: And your answer was "no".

MR STEPHENS: So by then they'd moved away.

MR BERGER: No Mr Stephens, please just read what you got there, you don't say "they'd moved away", you said "no, there were - I do not know.  What I can remember is there were a couple of Police there".  You don't say they moved away, you say the opposite.

MR STEPHENS: Then it says further on
"Whether they moved around the corner or they went away, I do not know."

MR BERGER: Yes?

MR STEPHENS: I actually don't know what you're actually getting at.

MR BERGER: Well what I'll put to you Mr Stephens, is that whichever way you want to take this evidence, its stands alone.  None of the policemen ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: But here it says here
"And when the group got to De Villiers Street, you cannot recall seeing any policemen in the vicinity of the group?    No, there were - I do not know.  What I can remember is there were a couple of policemen there at that time.  Whether they moved around the corner or they went away, I do not know."

MR BERGER: Let me move on Mr Stephens.  As the group comes across De Villiers Street into King George, this guard with the AK47 opens fire whilst on his haunches?

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: And he fires straight into the group of marchers, correct?

MR STEPHENS: That's the way it looked.

MR BERGER: The Policeman just stood next to him doing nothing?

MR STEPHENS: That's the way it looked.

MR BERGER: Mr Stephens this is your evidence I'm referring to.

MR STEPHENS: What page are you on now?

MR BERGER: Well that is your evidence, am I right?

MR STEPHENS: Sure.

MR BERGER: No sooner had the group crossed De Villiers, than the guard opened fire, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Well they basically just about crossed De Villiers, yes.  They'd come to the end of De Villiers Street when the guard started shooting.  It wasn't that they were on the other side of De Villiers and then he started shooting, it was only once they'd - they were in King George, and if that's the road, as they came to the end of De Villiers, that's basically when they started shooting, give or take a metre or two.

MR BERGER: As they entered into King George Street?

MR STEPHENS: Basically as they had just about crossed De Villiers Street, almost into King George, yes.