Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-14

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson there are volumes of documents that have been supplied to the TRC about the functions of the CCB and the inner circle had nothing to do with, except for its own administrative business and its own region, so not one of these members had anything to do with Region 6.  region 6 had nothing to do with any projects of these members who have been mentioned.

GEORGE BIZOS: But by its very name, its function must have been an overseeing and co-ordinating function.  How could it oversee as the inner core and direct the performance of the particular act, whatever the region may have been, if they didn't get together to discuss it?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, I did not say that they did not supervise anything, they co-ordinated their own things with me.  Every Regional Manager co-ordinated his activities with me.  All the activities of the region was handled in a cell structure.  It was attached to my statement and it has been supplied to the Commission over the course of 11 years.

GEORGE BIZOS: Just answer the questions, not necessarily by reference to other documents.  We don't want to read all of them, we want your answer, we don't want any references to the documents.  If your counsel wants you to produce any of them, he'll do it.  But let us take as an example, was Mr Lafras Luitingh referred to as the Administrative or Production Manager?  Was that his designation?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, if I recall correctly, he was the Co-ordinator of specific members, he was not a Production Manager.

GEORGE BIZOS: What was he to co-ordinate, do you say?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: For specific projects for which one, in this regard, was the handling initially of Mr Ferdi Barnard, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Bizos, if I could just ask a question after something that was said a moment ago by Mr Verster.  Mr Verster, did I hear you correctly, did you say that the other regional managers of Region 1, 2, 4 etc didn't know that Staal Burger was the Regional Manager of number 6?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: They did not know Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Region 6 then even within the inner core, a sort-of secret type region, or why didn't they know that he was a manager?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It was only how we worked Chairperson and that was because it was the group of Region 6 who came from the police and as the threat escalated against South Africa, Region 6 later came about.  It was only in that way so that if someone did not know the other person, they stayed away from each other, for example in the training that Region 6 dealt with, only they and a few other people, for example myself and someone from Intelligence and so on and logistical people, gave them training, but the rest of the regions, there was no bond there because there was no purpose in taking persons who came from Special Forces who knew each other, now to keep them apart, they were kept apart for projects but not in terms of knowledge or co-ordination.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it not so that when the CCB was formed, that its initial purpose was to operate abroad, out of the country, externally?  Regions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 were all external, nothing to do with ...

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is so, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And so when Region 6 was later developed and formed, that was internal.  Did the Generals, the people at the top, know about Region 6?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes, the whole function of the structure was in terms of a plan, so the threat was evaluated, a plan was made, it was submitted.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Bizos, sorry.

GEORGE BIZOS: You said yesterday that you had regular meetings.  Sometimes once a week with all the Regional Managers.  Did you say that?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Correct, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: That clearly indicated that all the Regional Managers came together from time to time.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct.  If they had reason to meet and knew each other.  If anyone did not know each other then he did not meet in this manner and in that instance I went to them, which I also said yesterday.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let us just confine ourselves to what you said yesterday, that you - the Regional Managers and you had regular meetings with the District Managers.  How could you have told the Chairman this morning that the one Regional Manager didn't know any other Regional Managers?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is how it worked and that is how I put it yesterday.

GEORGE BIZOS: Don't you see the patent contradiction in your evidence, Sir?

MR WESSELS: With respect, Mr Chairman, I don't see the contradiction in the evidence and I object to the statement to the witness.  That is a matter for argument.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) respect to say, the two statements are contradictory, I don't know why my learned friend describes them as non-contradictory.  Have you any - if they are found to be contradictory, have you any explanation for that contradiction?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: As I can recall, yesterday I said, Chairperson, that we me just about weekly.  The Regional Managers met.   There was doubt here yesterday with regard to certain administrative names of the persons.  I also said yesterday that we had various venues, so that we did not occupy a building, everyone on the same floor, every region worked from his own position.  It was only a technical point.  If a group gets together, or I go to the group, we still meet once a week.  It was not an issue yesterday, whether we came together in a group or did whatever in a group.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you or did you not meet the Regional Directors in the same room regularly, once a week or once every two weeks, or once a month?  Did you or did you not?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Not necessarily, it depended on circumstances.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were there circumstances where you did meet all the Regional Managers together?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Of course there were circumstances, except when the person was not supposed to be there, then he was not there.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Verster, you will not detract me from the gravamen of my question.  Don't give me the exceptions.  I am asking you as a general rule, did the General Managers meeting with you, yes or no?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I will not answer it as a general rule.  I say what I've said.  I say that if it was necessary, then they met, if they did not and not all together, depending on how - if they can meet one another.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Did they meet one another in their capacity as Regional Managers with you and the other members of the inner ring, inner core?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Bizos, I have no trouble in saying that these persons who could meet, met and we met once a week and the persons who could not be there were not there, so I will never say that everyone was there, because you want me to say that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Bizos.  Did you used to call the meetings?  Did you used to say, there's going to be a meeting next Thursday in my office or some other office and then call all the people who were meant to be at that meeting, or was it a standing arrangement that on a particular day of the week at a particular time, they were expected to be there unless they were told not to be there?  How did these meetings come about?  How were they convened?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, there was  a more or less standing rule that said that we might meet on Mondays or Wednesdays, those who could meet and then we kept the groups apart.  It also happened for example that one meets with the one group at one premises, those who could see each other and if there were people who did not know who worked with us, then we would - one would meet with another group at another place, or one would go to these people's offices.