Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-03

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, I saw him.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you see Pato also participating in the shoot-out?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No, I did not see him shooting, but he was among the comrades who were there.

MR MGIDLANA: Could you then give us, you are also involved in applying for amnesty in respect of the Mapipa case, is that correct?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Judge, may I just indicate that I would also like him to get into this other incidents?  You heard Matshaya saying that as far as he knew, you were a member of the Self Defence Unit, is that correct?

FUNDISELE GULENI: That is correct sir.

MR MGIDLANA: From whom did you get training, from which structure?  Did you get training from MK or from the TDF?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I was trained by the MK members.

MR MGIDLANA: When did you get such training and where?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I got the training inside the country, I never went into exile, in 1987.  We were trained by a comrade called Thami, who was a Unisa student and Isaac Mbomvu.  I was together with two other comrades that were from Durban, but I do not know their names.

MR MGIDLANA: And where was this, in which part of - was this training taking place in Port St Johns or somewhere else?

FUNDISELE GULENI: It was in Lusikisiki then, at a place called Mfohlozi, in a dipping tank in a forest.

MR MGIDLANA: Then could you just tell us as to what happened regarding the killing of the late Mr Mapipa?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Firstly regarding the issue of Mr Mapipa, there was a great fighting between the PAC and the ANC in Port St Johns.   This started when there was a rolling mass action called for by the ANC.   We were fighting with the existing municipality of Port St Johns at the time and the rate payers were effected by this.  As the Mass Action Committee we had the intention of to bring down the municipality that was existing at that time, and this brought this faction that was existing between us and the ANC led by Mr Mposelwa.  We  saw that all of a sudden now, they were being guarded and whenever there was a meeting that consisted of all structures regarding Port St Johns problems, he would be escorted.   It is Mr Mposelwa who was being escorted.  This continued and it was - this faction grew beyond the borders of the town of Port St Johns, even in Nzimbene where there were APLA soldiers staying there, which was a place where Mr Mapipa stayed.   It was also discovered that there were APLA members who were staying in the farmers, in the Port St Johns area.

MR MGIDLANA: Sorry, this Nzimbene falls under the, does it fall under the area of jurisdiction of Port St Johns?

FUNDISELE GULENI: That is correct sir, it is under the Port St Johns jurisdiction.

MR MGIDLANA: Is it a township or an Administrative area?

FUNDISELE GULENI: It is a village.

MR MGIDLANA: Yes, proceed?

FUNDISELE GULENI: There were a lot of provocation between our groups.  I remember when we had a memorial service for Mr Thambo where a PAC member was giving a message of support, which was the late Mr Makhabula.   He was also talking as he pleased, because he said, uttered statements like "that white man, Joe Slovo, would be killed if he were to come here in Port St Johns".  There were some attacks that were launched by the PAC members.  This started on Pumulela Hermans and this attack happened in January 1994.  He managed to get away from that and he left Port St Johns and sought homage in Umtata.  The second incident was the attack on his father, which is Mr Hermans, in his house.   Fortunately he managed to get away.  All these fights continued and the unrest caused by these soldiers.  At some stage there was an attack on a Coke truck and also a passer-by who was just driving passed on his tractor, was also shot.   A TDF soldier tried to fight back to defend this person.  Also another kombi was blocked on its way to Lusikisiki and it was shot.  It was all such incidents that happened, to the extent that Sadtu called a meeting that was intending to bring together all the Heads of Departments in Port St Johns, the Heads of Departments were from the police and from the Justice and from the investigating unit from the police and from the Station Commander.   The purpose of the meeting was mainly to question why were the people of APLA out of control and nobody was trying to control them.  But the answer that was given by the Station Commander was the fact that it is difficult for them to intervene or to address this matter, because when Gen Bantu Holomisa was in power, he said that after the certain family were beaten, these people can defend themselves whenever they pleased, but all these incidents, we would report at the police station and we would find the Assistant-Station Commander who would say to us "this MK or the ANC, isn't it giving you arms to defend yourselves"?

CHAIRPERSON: Let's forget about all that now, let's get to the actual incident.

FUNDISELE GULENI: Okay.   Firstly whilst I was at the Port St Johns office of the ANC, Mzwandile Jagu arrived who was from Port St Johns.  He said "there are rumours that the APLA members are going to attack us" and the Voter Education thing was due any time.   Ndumiso Sgotyana from Etombo arrived, as well as accompanied by comrade Mula in a sedan car.  I was not sure whether it was a Cressida or not, but it was white in colour.   They said that they got information to the effect that "we might be attacked today", there might be shooting taking place or an attack.   Whilst we were still sitting there, Mzwandile arrived at a later stage, but he talked to me first and said we must go and look for Ndumiso as there is a rumour that "we might be attacked today" because Mr Mapipa's car and some soldiers had entered the town.   As he was still telling us about these news and these rumoured attack, this car arrived and it was dark at that time, it was already passed sunset.   He pointed out this car, Mzwandile.  Ndumiso who was saying that we must follow with his Cressida, but Mzwandile suggested that we should use his 4x4 van as it was faster.  We got into the 4x4 and we took an R4 and an Uzzi which was in Ndumiso's car and in Mzwandile's car there was a G3.  We went into Mzwandile's car, it was myself, comrade Mula and Mzwandile.  This comrade Mula is late, he is from Etombo.  We were following this car, Mzwandile was driving, I was sitting at the back and Mzwandile was sitting in front.  Me went passed Mampube to Ncabazi.  Mzwandile took another route, that was being used, a detour that was being used due to constructions.     I think he had a 9mm and I had an R4 rifle.  Ndumiso had a G3 and Mule had an Uzzi.   After having parked the car, we crossed the road into some bushes, where we lay there in waiting and as this car approached, Mzwandile pointed it out and he could clearly identify the car, because it had only one light that was functioning and that is when he said that we must start firing and we did, and as we did, the car lost direction and it stood still.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Mzwandile the Commander of that group, the unit maybe?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Mzwandile was a Commander there, because when he came, he introduced himself as an MK member in Port St Johns, and he was very resourceful and he had the weapons and he also had a car.

CHAIRPERSON: You regarded him as a Commander?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes, yes, we did sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, proceed.