Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-23

MR MALAN: I do not want to try and make connection between your acts - all I'm trying to find out from you and this is Mr Bracher's question - you thought that the ANC killing innocent people is acting very badly, maliciously and it shouldn't be that way - that's what I understood from you evidence or did you think they were doing the right thing by killing innocent civilians?

J H VLOK: No Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Did you think it was a bad thing to do, that they must be stopped?

J H VLOK: Yes, they had to be stopped doing that, yes I believed that and also that we had to have our own Volkstaat.

MR MALAN: No, I don't want to talk about the politics.  This is the question - you are very unhappy about the fact that the ANC kills innocent people or were you not unhappy about it?

J H VLOK: Yes, I was.

MR MALAN: So how did you motivate yourself then that it's good enough for you to kill innocent people, because you realised this was going to happen?

J H VLOK: I identified myself with all the people who were with me and I was willing to wage a war together with them in order to stop the elections and to enforce a Volkstaat.

MR MALAN: If I can summarise it correctly, you are saying that if the ANC can kill innocent people that's bad but if we kill innocent people for our cause then it's okay?

J H VLOK: I did what I believed in.

MR MALAN: And what you believed in was that you can take innocent lives but the ANC cannot?

J H VLOK: No, Chairperson, I have as much right as him to take innocent lives in order to obtain my objective.

MR BRACHER: Mr Vlok, you've just given a very important answer, you said "I identified myself with the people I was with".  Now those people were a group of four people, five people, is that correct?  Barnard, Myburgh, Le Roux, de Wet and yourself?

J H VLOK: Not De Wet, no.  Please repeat the names?

MR BRACHER: Myburgh, Barnard, Le Roux, de Wet and yourself?

J H VLOK: Koekemoer and myself, de Wet at that stage was not there.

MR BRACHER: de Wet helped with the bombing?

J H VLOK: To place it, yes.

MR BRACHER: Now, you now - the next morning, you haven't had a conscience overnight, apparently, you're driving to Germiston, you said in your evidence "I worked with the radio".  Did you have some sort of radio communication in that car?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, yes.  It was a Defence Force radio.

MR BRACHER: Who were you in communication with?

J H VLOK: With the ghost vehicle, the vehicle that drove in front.

MR BRACHER: Could you get in touch with your head office or not?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: But you could talk to the other Le Roux in the other vehicle in other words?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Did he tell you on the radio about how he was going to go about choosing a target or how he would point it out to you?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: How did he point out the target to your car?

J H VLOK: He showed me by lifting up his hand and saying it's right because the radio at that stage - we could not get a frequency at that stage.

MR BRACHER: On his signal, you stopped the car and you're going to arm the bomb.  If you look around you, you'll see innocent people who have nothing to do with any particular group as far as you know, is that correct.

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I saw the people but I was there to execute my order and I did it.

MR BRACHER: If you looked around you, you would have seen white people - for all you knew, they were members of the AWB?

J H VLOK: Yes Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: And did you not have second thoughts at that stage?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, because I believed that what  I was doing was right, it was to further the interests for our Volkstaat.

MR BRACHER: When you look around you, did you see any State property?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, not that I could see, no.

MR BRACHER: No further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRACHER

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, may I just say that from the various families who are present, they have got various questions.  I would try and put them together to this applicant, it's from the Zasi family and the Mashenini family.
	Mr Vlok, the head office was in contact with the game farm by radio communication, is that correct?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, they were in contact with the radio operation room.

UNKNOWN: While you were at the head office, according to your knowledge, was there any contact between head office, the leader Mr Terreblanche and for example the game farm or any of the other bases that were established?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, Mr Terreblanche had access to the radio room.

UNKNOWN: I'm not talking about just access, were you aware of instructions, direct instructions that was conveyed with that radio?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Mr Fourie was the Camp Commandant at the game farm, did you know that?

J H VLOK: Yes, I found out only later.

UNKNOWN: Before you left Ventersdorp, that is the evening or the day of the 24th, did you not know that Commandant Fourie was the camp commandant in that area, Magaliesberg?

J H VLOK: Of the game farm, no Mr Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Did you know that there was a base at the game farm?

J H VLOK: Yes Mr Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: How did you know this?

J H VLOK: Because they left Ventersdorp in a convoy, they said they were on their way to the game farm.

UNKNOWN: Did you leave Ventersdorp in a convoy?  How many vehicles?

J H VLOK: I do not know, Mr Chairperson, they went in small groups.  Some people were at Cliff's farm, Cliff Barnard's farm.  Nicolas Barnard's farm was just outside of Ventersdorp, that is where the women were.

UNKNOWN: At Koesterfontein, at the building of the bomb and the assistance that you provided, did you ask any questions concerning the bomb, the building of the bomb?  For example, what would happen if the bomb would detonate, will we be safe, will we have enough time to get away?

J H VLOK: No, they did tell me Mr Chairperson, that is why they explained to me how to activate it.  They said to me that you've got a certain amount of seconds to get away.

UNKNOWN: At that stage you did not know anything of explosives you knew nothing?

J H VLOK: No, I didn't know.

UNKNOWN: And they gave you the instruction to activate this massive bomb?

J H VLOK: Yes, they trusted me and that was just after a few explanations that probably took a few minutes.

UNKNOWN: You were entrusted with the activation or detonation of this massive, powerful bomb after you received a few minutes of instructions?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Is there any reason why Koekemoer, he built the bomb, why didn't he go with to detonate the bomb?  Weren't you scared that you could have died in this explosion?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson, because at that stage I was willing to give even my life for that which I believed in.

UNKNOWN: One aspect of Constand Viljoen's involvement at head office, while you were there did they ever talk about Constand Viljoen as a traitor - that he sold us out, that he's going to take part in the elections now - anything in that nature?

J H VLOK: No, not as far as I can remember.

UNKNOWN: And you were always or most of the times you were with the leader, Eugene Terreblanche, is that correct?

J H VLOK: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: And he never made any comment that he is disappointed in General Constand Viljoen?

J H VLOK: Not as far as I can remember, no.

UNKNOWN: It is so that forgiveness is not a requirement in this act of reconciliation or in your amnesty application but the families who sit here and listen to the application requested me in the following questions and the first question is - how did you feel after you found out that various people, black people as well as white people died because of this bomb that you planted there?  We haven't heard how you felt about it.