Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-07-08

DR KNOBEL: Mr Vally, what I find very unfair is that you are trying to indicate that the final decision and the final management was in the hands of one person, that is not true.  It was a Co-ordinating Management Committee under the chairmanship of the Chief of the Defence Force.
 In terms of that management he had available to him the Chief of Staff Finance, the Chief of Staff Intelligence, the Chief of Staff Logistics, the Chief of the Army, the Commanding General of Special Forces, later on the Chief of the Airforce and when it was required, also the Chief of Staff Planning and the Chief of Staff and one of these incumbents was also General Steyn.
 Now the Surgeon General was there from a point of view that the scientists that was control of the Project Officer and the Project Officer himself, the Project Officer was a member of the medical services and the management was then entrusted to my predecessor, the Surgeon General.
 This project had run for eight years and it achieved all the objectives that it had set out to achieve.  We spoke very little in this hearing about any of the achievements.  I'm constantly reminded that it cost the State a lot of money and what have we got to show for it.  You've not paid any attention to the defensive equipment that had been developed, to the detection apparatus, to the decontamination apparatus as well as the decontamination substance.
 You've spent a lot of time saying how irresponsible it is to use CR.  Some of the scientists have said CR remains in the area where you apply it, that's why the decontamination fluid was developed to ensure that that problem would not arise.  You don't say any word about that.  You indicate that you believe that these records that we have may contain nothing.  I've indicated to you that I've recommended the government a number of times that we should access that information so that we can see how valuable it really is.  And I've said to government that that's a national asset of strategic importance that we cannot destroy and we will not, at the behest of the Americans or the British, get rid of, it's too important for us.
 You don't mention anything about the knowledge and the learning process that we had in advising the Department of Foreign Affairs or the Department of Trade and Industry with regard to the implications of the various Conventions, with regard to the legislation of this country, with regard to inspections, with regard to declarations.  
 You don't pay any attention to the important role that South Africa now plays within these two conventions and the respect that they have been dealt with in the international arena where they are giving impetus to new developments in terms of these conventions.  I'm not only referring to those two conventions, I'm referring to the Convention on Anti-personnel Mines.  You think that all of those things just come out of the air.   You don't pay any attention to the fact that one of the officers who served in the medical services is now sitting on the OPCW and playing a very important role there.  
 You don't pay any attention to the development of a 7th Medical Battalion Group which is a quick reaction group and which has saved lives in this country on a number of occasions because of the fact that they had developed in the way they had with parachuting and free falling and having special medical bags and the skills and the planning skills to do operations and to do the necessary planning for a disaster situation.  All of that you think just happens.  All of this developed at the same time when we were busy with this project.  
 In fact the whole 7th Medical Battalion Group has been so discredited that all those members have resigned and are now sitting either overseas or in some of these companies that you've been harping upon this morning.  I think it's very unfair to now hamper or pay attention only to one aspect, mainly the irresponsibility.
 I have admitted to this hearing on a number of occasions with the wisdom of hindsight I might have acted differently.  But you don't give me any leeway in understanding how it works in the hierarchy of the Defence Force where the Surgeon General is part of the team and where he is under the command of the Chief of the Defence Force and where any type of action that you seem to expect me to have done, could have led to somebody simply saying: "We don't need you anymore, get out, we don't need you around".  You've got to understand that but you're not understanding that.
 I dare to ask you if in this Commission members of the Commission know exactly what is happening at the level of research and development of your own researchers.  Are all those records made available, do they ...[indistinct].  I've heard your Chairman testifying in George that he didn't have the time to read the report that Mr Botha put in.  I've heard from members of this Committee that they haven't had time to read the Cloud Report which was drawn up exactly with the purpose to inform you fully of all the circumstances that existed and to inform government of all the existing circumstances so that you would have a total understanding of our programme.
 I've given a briefing to Mr Mandela which you have and I've given the summary of the two transparencies that I've shown you, and in that is shown all the equipment that we had at that time, masks and filters and detection apparatus and decontamination and clothing etc., etc.  You've heard testimony that that is being sought after by the countries that were involved in the gulf war, which gave a lot of credit to South Africa's position.  What more can I say to you than what I've been testifying in the last few days?  I've admitted that is I'd had the wisdom of hindsight I would have acted differently.
 I made a briefing to the TRC on the medical services in totality earlier last year, in May last year, and in that briefing I said that I was not aware of any activity within the medical service as an organisation which in any way I need to be ashamed about in terms of their ethics and their moral standards and the service that they had delivered.
 I've drawn up a code of conduct for that service of which I'm extremely proud and I said so here in public.  What I also said was that I regretted the fact that the type of hearing that took place led to a discreditation of the entire organisation and to a loss of manpower and loss of expertise which we will never ever be able to replace.
 You've made mention of the fact that we may have potentially proliferated.  I'm saying much of what has come out of this hearing has contributed to proliferation and will undoubtedly contribute to our international relations being jeopardised and I've said so to Mr Mbeki last week and he agreed with me.  I just want to say this ...[intervention]