Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MP PIGOU: But what I am asking you is, because the report from the Crisis Committee document, Annexure C, is that reflecting on the meeting which starts on page 2 of their submission in Annexure C, after having spoken about Gabriel Pele Mekgwe and Thabiso Mono telling people what they said that, and having withdrawn those things, that the meeting took those following resolutions which I have just read out.  Are you in a position to say whether or not those resolutions were taken?

REV MBANGULA: I am not.

MP PIGOU: Could you tell us at all what resolutions were taken by the meeting, or indeed were any resolutions taken by that meeting?

REV MBANGULA: I think I remember that that meeting decided somehow to do further investigations and tried to consult more with Mrs Mandela in trying to clarify the whole thing.  I don't remember the specifics in terms of the resolution because really that was not my main concern ...(intervention)

MP PIGOU: Surely, sorry sorry, Reverend Mbangula surely you would remember whether such - and in the time, in the context of that time dramatic decisions being made at a community based meeting to distance themselves from the mother of the nation, surely you would remember whether such resolutions were made?

REV MBANGULA: Can you please give me the reference you are talking about so that I can know the context?

MP PIGOU: No certainly.  In the Crisis Committee document, at the end of the Crisis Committee document there are a number of annexures.

REV MBANGULA: At the end, okay.

MP PIGOU: My colleague will just make that available to you.  This is page 3 of Annexure C, at the top of the page there, the points 1 to 5.

REV MBANGULA: Can I just understand what date was the meeting?

MP PIGOU: The 16th of January.

REV MBANGULA: Okay, okay.

MP PIGOU: Ja, in Dobsonville.

REV MBANGULA: Right.  Yes.

MP PIGOU: What I am trying to understand is that these are fairly dramatic resolutions and one would like to know from you whether you remember these resolutions being made?

REV MBANGULA: Yes, I think I was at that meeting, yes.

MP PIGOU: So you remember those resolutions being taken?

REV MBANGULA: Yes, ja quite.

MP PIGOU: Thank you.  In your statement you indicate that having gone to a meeting of the community leaders that you went then to see Mrs Mandela and sort of three sections up you phoned Mrs Mandela and made an appointment to see her with other members of the clergy.  She agreed and then you went to see her.  Is this the same meeting which Father Mkhatswa in his statement refers to as being on Friday the 18th of January 1989, the same meeting where you went with Bishop Manas Buthelezi?

REV MBANGULA: Thank you Sir.  I think right at the beginning I did try to correct the sequence of events as I understood them.   The meeting I referred to is the meeting of the 12th of January.  It was a meeting at Mr Aubrey's offices in Braamfontein, there were very few people, I think about eight or so.  I think Sister Bernard was there, Mr Mufamadi was there, Dr Naude was there, whereby I raised the first concerns of our second in that meeting, and it was at that meeting where I could not find the kind of answers that we were looking for and therefore I felt that the only way was for me to try and actually go to Mrs Mandela and that's when I invited Father Simangiliso and Bishop Manas to go with me to Mrs Mandela.
 The meeting with Mrs Mandela happened on the 13th, Friday 13th and I think my diary here of 1989 bears to that, that the Friday, the 13th was on a Friday, not on the 18th as Bishop Storey has said.  And therefore the sequence of events, the incident of the meeting with Mrs Mandela happened at a point when all those young people were still in the custody of Mrs Mandela and that's what we had gone there for, to try and secure the release of those boys from Mrs Mandela.

MP PIGOU: Were you aware at this stage of the previous efforts by our previous speaker, Dr Motlana, to release the boys?

REV MBANGULA: No I was not aware.

MP PIGOU: The section which - thank you for pointing out the inaccuracy of where it said Friday the 18th, but the section under that on page 9 of Bishop Storey's memorandum.

REV MBANGULA: Right.

MP PIGOU: And I will read briefly
"Three churchmen, Father Mkhatswa, Reverend Mbangula and Bishop Buthelezi visits Mrs Mandela.  She insists on Naidoo being present and Zinzi is also there".
Is that correct?  Were Zinzi Mandela and Krish Naidoo also present during your meeting?

REV MBANGULA: I don't remember Krish Naidoo being present at that meeting.  Yes, Zinzi was there.

MP PIGOU: I go on
"The question her concerning Stompie and she answers - `He's escaped I don't know where he is'."
Is that an accurate reflection of what Mrs Mandela said?

REV MBANGULA: It's not an accurate reflection of the context of that meeting.  As I have already said that when we had gone to Mrs Mandela we had gone to ask her about the four young people who were taken from the Church.  At that time there was a rumour but nothing was clear about specifically related to Stompie.  And I think what happened after, in the meeting at Dobsonville, what I am trying to explain has been substantiated by what Pelo and Mekgwe actually said in that meeting.

MP PIGOU: But perhaps we could just put this in at this point.  Surely as a Methodist minister you have been speaking with Bishop Storey, is that correct?

REV MBANGULA: Correct.

MP PIGOU: You were aware by this stage on the 13th of January that Kenny Kgase had already given a somewhat detailed description of what had happened at the Mandela household, that they had been taken against their will from Reverend Verryn's manse ...(intervention)

REV MBANGULA: Yes...

MP PIGOU: They had been taken to Mrs Mandela's house, that they had been assaulted...

REV MBANGULA: Yes.

MP PIGOU: And that there was considerable concern about the whereabouts of Stompie Seipei.  Now I put it to you again, did Mrs Mandela, when questioned about Stompie Seipei say, "he's escaped, I don't know where he is"?   These are the quotations ...(intervention)

REV MBANGULA: I don't remember that particular statement.

MP PIGOU: Would you have any reason to believe that Bishop Storey would inaccurately reflect your report-back?  If you look on, it says Monday the 23rd, and maybe he's got his dates wrong here again, it says that you reported back to him about the visit to Winnie and that he subsequently set up a meeting with Fink Hayson.

REV MBANGULA: Yes I think Bishop Storey he did confuse some of the dates the way he has related the facts.

MP PIGOU: Do you think ...(intervention)

REV MBANGULA: My report-back was on the same day, the 13th, at 3p.m. If you look at Bishop Storey's report, I think it's on page 4, the last paragraph, Bishop Storey speaks about a meeting of the Reverend Verryn, the Crises Committee at 3p.m., and I was at that meeting.  We had met with Mrs Mandela at about 11 earlier the same day and in that meeting I gave the report of what transpired at our meeting with Mrs Mandela whereby we were assured that of those young people who would be released to the custody of Bishop Storey.  That was on the 13th, that's when I first reported.  The following week Monday together with others we had gone to the Dobsonville meeting.

MP PIGOU: Okay now if you we're saying we that the meeting that you attended on the 13th is the one that was indicated on page 4, where you have a meeting with the Crisis Committee, and Crisis Committee members are present, I'd just like to pick up on one point which we raised with the Crisis Committee, that there was an attempt to get the Crisis Committee to cooperate, to get their support in legal action in relation to this and that the Crisis Committee refused to cooperate. Is that an accurate reflection of what happened in that meeting also?