Amnesty Hearings — Phokeng — 1996-05-20

HASSAN MALL: Before we adjourn, will those who assist us in organising this meeting, ensure that as many people as possible receive head-phones so that they can hear the evidence that is going to be given by the witnesses. We will now adjourn for a short while to enable counsel to martial his witnesses.
HEARING ADJOURNS
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TAPE 2 - SIDE B 
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	....... There was a lot of violence in Phokeng and the state of emergency was still in place at that time.  Since then I have been arrested eight times under the State of Emergency Act.  The Bophuthatswana police would come to my home and harass my parents and the people with whom I stayed.  
	In 1990 it was in June, on the 5th of June, we were arrested together with Chief Mokgatle's son.  There were five of us.  I am referring to the person who is now the chief of the Baphokeng.  We were arrested together with him and we were taken to Thabani police station.  We were interrogated there and at that time we didn't understand what was happening.  And we were told that we have bombed a house belonging to one of Mr Mangope's members.  They said it was me and Mr Molokegle.  Because of lack of evidence they said no, we have bombed a house that belongs to Chief Mangope's supporter, and we were released.  
	On the 29th of December in 1990 we met together as the Phiris.  There was a meeting at the Roman Catholic Church.  We came together as Baphokeng and the meeting was actually about the information that our king or our chief will never come alive back to Baphokeng, and we were told that those words were taken out by Mr Glad Mokgatle.  Seeing that I was one member of the action committee, this issue didn't satisfy us at all.  And we decided that as the Baphokeng - I must indicate that the building that we are sitting in today caused all these problems. Even the people who are Mr Mangope's supporters wanted to do anything they want in our tribe.  
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	We realised that it would be better to get the keys from Mr Billy Ramoresi, who was the secretary of the Baphokeng tribe.  We left as a group and we went to Mr Billy Ramoresi's house and we found him at his place.  We were surprised to see police there and we demanded to speak to Mr Ramoresi because he is Baphokeng and we are also the Baphokeng and the police started harassing us.  They shot at us with rubber bullets and they were throwing tear gas at us.  We ran away.  We ran and dispersed, but luckily we managed to meet again but this time we met at Legato.  We were 10 in number.  The 10 of us were members of the action committee.  Five of the members were from Johannesburg branch of the Baphokeng and the other five were members of Baphokeng action crime, based at Phokeng.  
	We agreed that seeing that we haven't received the keys during the time we needed them we would now go back to Mr Mokgatle to get the keys, because he was now the chairman elected by Mr Mangope.  
	We decided to go and see Mr Mokgatle and we were told that he is not at his residence, he went to see his girlfriend at Tchaneng. We left in a Kombi.  The Kombi was belonging to one of the action committee members from the Johannesburg branch and we went to Tchaneng.  
	On our arrival we knocked and we found that woman called the girlfriend.  Then we asked her where is Mr Glad Mokgatle.  Mr Mokgatle came from the bedroom and he had a panga in his hand.  It was sharpened on both sides.  If I have to give the measurement it would be twice the size of my hand.  Four of us went into the house and the others were remaining outside.    
	One of us, the deceased, Mr Mgopani, was at the corner. PHOKENG HEARING	AMNESTY/GAUTENG
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Mr Mokgatle wanted to attack Musi with his panga.  Because I was close to him, I managed to jump and stopped the panga with my hand and it chopped my hand, but at least I have already saved Mr Mgopani's life. I took the panga.  Because the people who were with me by that time were now angry.  They gave him a few claps and they took him with them.  
	We locked him in the Kombi and we drove off with him.  We asked him where are the civic centre's keys, because we want to lock it up. We told him that the tribe was crying, the tribe was complaining about his administration, we want the keys back.  He said he doesn't know anything about the keys.  We told him not to lie because he is a councillor elected by President Mangope.  We told him that we wanted the keys from him because he has to know where the keys are.  He didn't co-operate and we saw it necessary to take him hostage.  
	It was our intention to keep this man hostage until President Mangope listened to us.  We told ourselves that we are going to hold him as a hostage until we get the keys.  They decided we should drop him off there and some of the members said no, let us just kill him.  Others said no, can we keep him hostage. You know that in a large group people get emotional and you cannot stop them, and it happened that they attacked him.  I must say I was one of those people who attacked him, because I was already emotional, because he didn't want to listen to our issue, we wanted the keys.  	Most unfortunately we lost our temper, we hit him until he died.  We got into the Kombi and we drove off.  We went to our different homes and that was the end of the story.  Our aim was actually to hold Mogale hostage so that Mr PHOKENG HEARING	AMNESTY/GAUTENG
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Mangope can realise that we were serious about our demands.  We wanted our chief to come back home, that was the first thing we wanted from Mr Mangope, we wanted the state of emergency to be eradicated because we wanted the Bophuthatswana Government to be dismantled because it was oppressing the people.  There was no progress among the people out there.  (Applause).

MR CURRIN: Thank you for that.  You were a member of the action committee.  We heard previously, from a previous witness that action committee members were elected.  Were you elected to that position?

MR DIALE: Yes, I was elected by the tribe.

MR CURRIN: At the time of this incident, which you have described to us, what was the relationship between the action committee and the liberation movements?

MR DIALE: We were the members of the action committee at Phokeng and we found it very important to relate with other political organisations, because we were fighting against the Bophuthatswana Government.  We saw it as important, because they had been long in the struggle and they would be in a position to give us guidelines, as to how to approach the struggle, because we wanted to reinstate our chief.

MR CURRIN: Were you part of the African National Congress?

MR DIALE: Yes, I was already a member of the African National Congress.

MR CURRIN: In your mind, according to your information, did the attack and the murder meet with the approval of the African National Congress?

MR DIALE: I have to say the African National Congress had a concern, they agreed with us.

MR CURRIN: Did anybody from the ... (intervention).
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HASSAN MALL: Just hold on.  Were the African National
Congress aware of the fact that this man was killed?

MR DIALE: Because we were working together with them at the time, as an action committee, they knew that the man had been killed.

MR CURRIN: Did anybody from the African National Congress ever speak to you about this particular incident, and if so, who is that person and what did that person say?

MR DIALE: A person came to us, after we have been arrested, he was from the African National Congress, and he was the chairman of the African National Congress, in our Rustenburg branch.  His name was Isaac Mokgatle.

MR CURRIN: And what did he say to you?

MR DIALE: He asked us whether we are the people who killed Mokgatle and wee told him yes, we killed him.  He said to us this is the beginning of the struggle.