Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-19

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is right.  I would say yes, I did shoot near the shops and although I cannot remember if that was the only time, I cannot remember firing at any other point.

MR BERGER: And you don't know if you killed anybody?

MR MKHIZE: No, I do not.

MR BERGER: You never fired any shots in Slovo Park?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I did fire when we were at Slovo Park.

MR BERGER: You never saw any dead people in Slovo Park?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not.

MR BERGER: You only learnt the following day that people had died during the attack, you did not know that night that people had been killed?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: I want to read to you what you said in your statement to the police, Exhibit E.  You said we were a big group - let me start at page 4 - you are talking about being at the stadium and you talk about a person Situndwa Zulu.  Who is Situndwa Zulu?

MR MKHIZE: I don't remember such a person.

MR BERGER: Who is Samsondwase Ngema?

MR MKHIZE: Samson?

MR BERGER: Samsondwase Ngema?  You don't know?

MR MKHIZE: I do not know him.

MR BERGER: You say in your statement page 5, that I had an AK47 with me with a magazine which was full of AK47 bullets, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: In other words, this is the truth what I have just read?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is so.

MR BERGER: You also say page 5, that you left the stadium and you went across the road, you crossed the road which runs next to the hostel, to where the houses begin, which is correct, am I right?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Then you say when we came to the houses, those who had assegai's went into the houses, to stab the people.  Is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: It is the truth?

MR MKHIZE: I think so, although a long time has elapsed since.

MR BERGER: Then you say I and the others who waited outside, shot at those people from the houses, who ran outside and were trying to run away.
	So what you are saying is some AmaButho with spears, went into the houses to stab the people and as the people were coming out of the houses to run away, you and others stood there with your AK47's, and shot at them.  That is the truth, isn't that?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: So it is not true that you only fired shots at the shops and in Slovo Park?

MR MKHIZE: I did also say that I also fired with my firearm when we were going towards Slovo Park.

MR BERGER: You say in the statement that you fired five shots with your AK47 at people who were running away?  Is that true?

MR MKHIZE: I don't think it was five times.  It could have been more.

MR BERGER: Did you empty your magazine in Boipatong and Slovo Park?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: How did the attack come to an end, how did you know that the attack was ending?

MR MKHIZE: When we assembled at Slovo Park, we just turned back and returned home.

MR BERGER: Hundreds of you in Slovo Park?

MR MKHIZE: I beg your pardon?

MR BERGER: All the AmaButho finally got to Slovo Park, is that what you are saying, and then you turned back?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, we returned to the hostel thereafter.

MR BERGER: But you hadn't attacked the whole of Boipatong, certain areas were left out, why?

MR MKHIZE: We realised that if we were to continue, we would end up being arrested.

MR BERGER: And when did you realise this?

MR MKHIZE: When we assembled at Slovo Park, we decided that we should actually return to the hostel.

MR BERGER: It suddenly dawned on you after an hour to an hour and a half, that the police might come and arrest you?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that occurred to us.

MR BERGER: On your way back to kwaMadala, did you see any police or army vehicles?

MR MKHIZE: The problem with you is that you ask me one and the same question.  I did say that I only saw one car.

MR BERGER: The problem Mr Mkhize is that you don't listen to my question.  My question is as you were moving back to kwaMadala, did you see any police or army vehicles?  The vehicle that you spoke about was the vehicle that you saw when you were moving towards Boipatong.

MR MKHIZE: I said I saw that vehicle on our way back.  It was proceeding towards Sebokeng.  I did not say I saw it on our way to Boipatong.

MR BERGER: So if that vehicle had stopped, the one that you saw on your way back, if it had stopped, then you would have done what, because I remember your answer before was, if the vehicle had stopped, then we wouldn't have continued to go and attack?  Please explain what you would have done if it stopped?

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't, he didn't say that.  He said we would have run away.  We would have known that we would be arrested.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, my recollection of the witness' evidence is that on their way to Boipatong, they saw this vehicle moving along Frikkie Meyer Boulevard.  If the vehicle had stopped, they would have known that they would have been arrested, they wouldn't have continued going towards Boipatong.  The vehicle continued driving.

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't add the part that you are adding.

MR BERGER: The witness said that they were on their way to Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: His original evidence was that he saw this motor vehicle when they were on their way, that is what he said initially.

MR BERGER: Not on their way to Boipatong?

CHAIRPERSON: That was his initial evidence.  Under cross-examination when there was a confusion, when he said this motor vehicle was proceeding towards Sebokeng I think it was, and it was put to him that they were on their way to Boipatong.

MR BERGER: And he said yes?  Anyway, it is on record.  Mr Mkhize, then to clarify, is it your evidence that on your way from kwaMadala to Boipatong, you saw no vehicles, no army, no police vehicles as you were approaching Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.  I did not see any vehicle.  I did not see any army vehicle, nor police vehicle.

MR BERGER: And the caspir that you referred to, that you saw driving towards Sebokeng, that is the caspir that you saw on your way back to kwaMadala?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: I put it to you that you are changing your evidence, but I will argue that.
	The caspir that you saw, or the only caspir that you saw, you say if it had stopped, then you might have been arrested, but it didn't stop, it continued going towards Sebokeng?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: If it had stopped, what would you have done?

MR MKHIZE: We would have run away.  There was no other option, except to flee.

MR BERGER: We know that there was in fact a military vehicle stationed near the corner of Frikkie Meyer Boulevard and Nobel Boulevard, that is where that Trek garage was, we know that that - I believe it is either a caspir or a buffel, was stationed there as you were making your way back to kwaMadala.  Are you saying that you never saw that vehicle?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not see it.  The only vehicle that I saw, is the one that I mentioned before.

MR BERGER: And that is the vehicle which did not stop, it continued driving towards Sebokeng?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: In fact, we know that soldiers got out of that vehicle and stopped the traffic from proceeding, this is the vehicle traffic from proceeding along Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, in your direction.  You never saw that?

MR MKHIZE: No, I did not see it.

MR BERGER: So there was no reason for you to run, and I take it you did not run?

MR MKHIZE: We did not run because the vehicle did not stop.

MR BERGER: And hundreds of armed men, carrying looted property with blood dripping from spears and blankets, walked from Boipatong back to kwaMadala along the same route that they had taken to come out of kwaMadala, is that right?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is so.

MR BERGER: Walked under the bridge again, along that road, and re-entered kwaMadala through the main gate?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.