Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

MR GOOSEN: Mr Chairperson, Mr de Klerk with respect, firstly I indicated the document was tabled at the - and was submitted in evidence at the Goniwe inquest, the inquest which you correctly indicate you facilitated by changing the law, it was not challenged by the SAD

<UNKNOWN>: which was represented there by senior counsel. The document was also, and has also been submitted at another inquest, namely in the inquest of Anton Lubowski. There too the matter, it was not challenged by anyone. 
If you would have regard please to page 4 you will see that Brigadier Joubert who was the officer commanding special forces of the South African Defence

<UNKNOWN>: orce confirms on oath that he was present, and he also confirms the authenticity of the document. That is on oath. His oath Sir, with respect, is as compelling an oath as your oath is today. Whether the document is put to General Geldenhuys or not is in fact, with respect, completely beside the point. I am asking you Sir, as leader of the National Party, you have proffered an explanation of the basis upon which State policy should be interpreted, that murder was never regarded as an element of State policy, I am asking you Sir for a comment.

MR DE KLERK: Mr Chairman I have been referred to page 4 and it's quoted here as if it substantiates. Page 4 is an extract from a document. I don't even have the advantage, apart from the fact that I haven't had these documents, I don't even have the advantage to know what was said in paragraph 7 and paragraph 6 and 5, 4, 3, 2, and 1 of this affidavit ...(intervention)

MR GOOSEN: It appears on page 3.

MR DE KLERK: And what he said on the rest ...(intervention)

MR GOOSEN: It appears on page 3, Sir.

MR DE KLERK: It's just an - yes, but I'm just getting an extract from a document.

MR GOOSEN: No, it's not it appears on page 3, and 4, and 5 if you have a look ...(intervention)

MR DE KLERK: No I'm sorry, I'm sorry if I look at the typewriting of page 4, page 4 marked in pencil is part of a document which had more than one page, where is the other page of that document?

MR GOOSEN: No Sir, please have a look at page 3, at the top it says, "Here I acknowledge, General Joubert...", the only difference, Sir, between page 4 and page 3 in the type face that you indicate is that it's been slightly reduced so that it can appear on the one page. That is the only difference. The affidavit continues, it in fact comprises only two pages, 3 and 4, and you will indicate there that this is the affidavit which was handed in, the original of that affidavit, Sir, was handed in at the Goniwe Inquest and this is a copy of it. And it's indicated that it is signed by and duly affirmed to by Brigadier Joubert. I have indicated that to you.
What I have also indicated, if you want to have a look, Sir, on top of page 33 you will see G33. I can indicate to you that that's my handwriting because I acted in the Goniwe Inquest and I marked it when it was handed in. Exactly the same as on page 1 of the bundle, "G33" that's my handwriting as is G33 "Composite document" on the top left-hand corner, it's my handwriting. I was present when it was handed in. I indicated that to you at the outset.

MR DE KLERK: Mr Chairperson I don't know how long this document has been in existence, why wasn't it made available to me beforehand? I am sorry I am not going to reply to this question. I would like an opportunity to study it, to ask for amplification of documents if necessary and then I will give a written reply to written questions submitted on this to me.

MR GOOSEN: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: I am not applying evasive action. But I think that it is absolutely unfair to present me suddenly here with a document that must have some relevance that it has 61 pages.

MR GOOSEN: It certainly does.

MR DE KLERK: And suddenly I must now begin to say something about page 1, and then something about page 3. I want to be fully informed about the background of the questioning, and I want time to study it and therefore I am not prepared to continue to reply to this question in this instance.

MR GOOSEN: Alright. Similar concerns regarding the liability of senior ranking officers was set out in a document which was seized from the SAD

<UNKNOWN>: 's directorate of special tasks, DST, during - which was sent during October 1988 from the then Chief of Staff, Intelligence, Vice Admiral Putte to the Minister of Defence, Magnus Malan. The extract is contained in the bundle of documents at page 6 of this bundle.

MR DE KLERK: We are wasting time now Mr President, I...

MR GOOSEN: You don't have any comment to make?

MR DE KLERK: I have indicated, I haven't had a look at page 6, and I have indicated that I am not prepared to just off-the-cuff glancing at a document, to make comments and to make replies.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it will be a reasonable request that he has prior sighting of the document. If you are wanting to follow up questioning I think we - we are not, I've always said we are not a court of law, we are setting out to discover what the truths are and if it will assist Mr de Klerk and I mean I think that the point he makes is a valid point, if you are wanting to persist in your questioning I think I would have to say we can't, if we are using this, he should be left to have time to look at it and you can give him the questions in writing and we would expect a response.

MR GOOSEN: Mr Chairperson if that's how you would wish to proceed then we'll proceed that way. I may indicate, right at the outset, that I did indicate at the outset that the purpose of the exercise is to determine the issue of political accountability. Certain categories have been raised by the National Party and that's what I am exploring. The two documents to which I have referred thus far, do not in fact, on the face of them, implicate Mr de Klerk in any unlawful activity. I am asking him for a comment, as the leader of the National Party and former State President, to give me an indication of what his view is ex facie the documents which indicates that certain unlawful actions were perpetrated by very senior members of the South African Defence

<UNKNOWN>: orce. 
It is in exactly the same category as a factual question which I may put (...indistinct) or for that matter any of the other ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Let me say Glen that if you are going to be using the document I have said I think it is a reasonable request that Mr de Klerk has made and that if we are going to question him on the basis of this then he has to have had the opportunity of a sighting and be able to consult with whomever he wants to consult.

MR GOOSEN: Mr Chairperson then I will move from that issue and I will deal with another issue which does not require reference to any specific document for the moment which may assist the proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: That's a great relief. (General laughter)