Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-15

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: No.  The main aim, or the most important thing was to get the people of Ciskei to vote because he has associated himself with IFP and Bophuthatswana.  We were not looking for a better life there, but we just wanted the people from Ciskei to be able to vote because we knew that under Brig Gqozo's regime they would not vote.  Even the police whose houses were burned down and the soldiers, some soldiers had moved away from their houses, they went to stay in the army, we did not want to live in luxury, but what we had in mind was that we want to step aside so that the people could go straight to Gqozo but they were shot at the stadium and we were faced with the soldiers now, but they came to our side ultimately and we discussed them, we convinced them, we told them that their houses were being burned down and they were also affected by this problem.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, if then you were not hoping that the welfare of the police and the lives of the police would be better, I wish to refer you to section 9 sub-section 4 of your application, it reads as follows
"Nature and particulars :  On 1994 March 22 we gathered at Ciskei police college.  We were on the opinion of instability in the border area (Ciskei region).  The fears in the entire police was the pensions of all civil servants.  People or officers were taken as hostage.  At first, but all the way, we knew our objective was to remove Brig Gqozo from power so that people can vote freely in the Ciskei area.  Brig Gqozo resigned at last and the hostages were released, unhurt and unharmed.  See attached annexure."
Did you say that when you were making your application?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Do you still recall who are the officers who are taken hostage?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: There was quite a large number of officers but  I can remember a few of them, people like Col Adoni, I saw him there on that particular night.  Gen Nqoya.  It was quite a large number.  Capt Makwethu was also there because his matter was very serious concerning the money squandering.

CHAIRPERSON: What is this Captain's name?  Say again.

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: Capt Makwethu.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he alleged to have misappropriated the funds of the junior officers in the widows and orphans fund and in the sports club?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: I'm not sure which funds he misappropriated but I heard that he misappropriated funds because he was working in the finance department.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that it may be that some of the information which was given there at the college about the misappropriation of funds was not an accurate one?  Number 2 -maybe somebody just had malice.  Is that correct?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: That might be possible but that might not be so because according to my knowledge there were cases that were going on whereby Capt Makwethu and Capt Sawuti were called in Zwelitsha court, so I don't know the outcome of those cases and there's no person who will just out of the blue say a certain person has misappropriated money and there would be a case.  If there is a case it is possible that a person might have done that until he is proven not guilty in a court of law.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, exactly.  Now why were those people held hostage if the allegation was that they have misappropriated funds?  Why were they not taken straight to Bisho police station which was not far from where you were?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: According to my knowledge even though I am not quite sure, I think that the following day they were taken to Bisho police station, but I'm not sure about that because I was not part of the people who escorted them but there was something saying that they will have to be taken to Bisho police station, I don't know what happened about that.  Maybe they were taken that same night or not.  Maybe they are the ones who will tell us whether they were taken to Bisho police station or not, so I'm not sure whether they were taken there or not but there was a word saying that they must be taken to Bisho police station and I could not be focusing on people who were misappropriating funds because I was focused on whether Gqozo had really resigned or not because I was also monitoring the South African Defence Force who were standing where the people were shot.  I would drive by their area and then come back, so I don't know what was happening in the hall when I was not there.  Maybe they were taken there or not, I'm not sure.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But you'll agree with me Mr Nkwenkwe that it was a simple thing that a person who has misappropriated funds should have been taken, if he's taken from his house or from his office, should have been taken straight to the police station.  There was no reason why the person was taken to Bisho police college.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nompozolo how does that, how is it relevant to this amnesty application, this question of the misappropriation of funds and what happened to people who were alleged to have done so and others who had confessed to having done so etc, how does it come into this application actually?

MR NOMPOZOLO: It comes Mr Chairperson because that is the reason why they were held hostage and what we are saying in opposing the application is that it was not a politically motivated action by the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Which was not politically motivated, the entire action or just the action in regard to people who were allegedly involved in a misappropriation of funds or what?  What is the basis of your position, to be precise?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is that they were held hostage and the reason why they were held as hostages is because it was alleged that they have misappropriated funds.

CHAIRPERSON: And in your case that is not politically motivated?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, the misappropriation of funds.  It's not politically motivated.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, the actions of the junior officers.

MR NOMPOZOLO: By holding them hostage.

CHAIRPERSON: In trying to resolve this question around what happened to their money?  You say that's not politically motivated?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes that's what we are saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, go ahead.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you.  Now, it was a simple question Mr Nkwenkwe of the police whether junior or senior, arresting a policeman from his house or from his office.  Take him straight to the police station and not to hold a person hostage at Bisho police college, when a person has misappropriated funds.  is it not like that?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: Yes, it might be so.  According to the law when you arrest a person you are not supposed to take him to the police college.  I would not arrest a person on the street and take him to this hall, I'm supposed to take him to the police station, but concerning the issues that arose on that particular day, maybe they were asked what they had done with the money or what the decision from  court was because I'm saying that I used to go outside and check the surroundings of the college and went to the soldiers so I can't answer that question.  It might be possible that they were asked, I don't know.  Maybe they would be able to tell us that I was given a microphone to tell what happened about the money or what the court decision was or whether they were taken to the police station after that.  I don't know, because it might be possible that they were taken to the police college and then they were taken to the Bisho police station, I don't know.

MR NOMPOZOLO: On your own evidence you have testified that the officers were held hostage.  For how long did that last?  From what time did you notice them held hostage until what time?