Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-20

MR PANDAY: No, Madam Chair, it's fine.  Now Mr Dlamini, after the killing of the victim you were arrested and then charged for the murder of the victim as well as the possession of a firearm, is that correct?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Is it also correct that you were convicted on these two charges?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Is it further correct that you received an 8 year imprisonment sentence for the murder of the victim and a one year imprisonment sentence for the possession of the firearm?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Duly giving you a 9 year imprisonment sentence?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, how many years thus far have you served of the sentence?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: 6 years.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, is that information relevant for purposes of us deciding whether to grant him amnesty or not?   If not, I would request you not to complicate our lives by leading irrelevant evidence.

MR PANDAY: As Madam Chair pleases.

MR MALAN: Mr Panday was he not also convicted of possession of ammunition and sentenced for 3 months to run concurrently with the sentence on the possession of the firearm?

MR PANDAY: We believe that is the position.

MR MALAN: That is indeed so from the record.

CHAIRPERSON: That has already been covered, I think, right at the initial stages of our proceedings.

MR PANDAY: Yes, Ma'am.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, to summarise your application for the amnesty...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose?   Before you can summarise his application, have you led any evidence with regard to his application for amnesty in respect of the unlawful possession of a firearm and ammunition?  We don't have that evidence.  Where were these weapons, I mean where was this weapon obtained, and what about the ammunition?

MR PANDAY: As Madam Chair pleases.  Mr Dlamini we have heard your evidence so far as it related to the killing of the victim.  Now I'm going to ask of you to disclose to the Committee firstly, how did you obtain the firearm that you used or attempted to use in the murder of the victim?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: This firearm, I obtained it from the deceased, the one of ANC, he had pointed out to me where he used to keep his weapons.  He told me that if I ever need something I would get it there.

MR PANDAY: What is the name of this deceased person who told you of the firearm?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: It was Mdo.

MR PANDAY: Are you referring to your brother?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your brother?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No, he is not my blood brother, but he is my brother because we were in the same organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Haven't you given evidence that Mdo was your brother who was killed at Shayamoya because of the conflict between the ANC and the IFP?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, I said so.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you now saying that you made a mistake when you said he was your brother, you meant brother in the sense of him being a member of the ANC?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you actually left a very wrong picture in our minds, I must tell you, because we are now of the opinion that your evidence was talking to the fact that that Mdo was your brother, you didn't say a member of the ANC, or a colleague or a compatriot was killed, you said your brother, leaving an impression and suggesting that it was your own brother, your personal brother, not your brother by virtue of belonging to the same political organisation.  Now how did he come to tell you about that firearm?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: We would stay with him most of the times in our area, he used to be one of us, we would be together throughout, even on that particular day when he was about to visit his girlfriend on a Saturday, he told me and the following day was going to be a Sunday and that is when he died.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that throughout the many years, or many months that you knew him, you were fortuitously told by him a day or so before his death, about where you could obtain this gun?  Is that what you want us to believe?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: The way we were so close and the other comrades who were with us, he brought some, he pointed out some weapons and he showed myself and the others and he told us that if we happen to encounter some problems, we should use them for protection.

CHAIRPERSON: And this was done a day of so prior to his death?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes it happened just before he died.

CHAIRPERSON: And this was a member of the ANC and he participated in all the activities that your formation participated in during his lifetime?  That is correct, is it not?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: We were working together with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Now did he not at any stage, whilst being a member of your formation, and this was a small formation from the evidence you have given, did he not use these weapons and did he not disclose to the other members their existence?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He was always armed all the time protecting himself.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he the only one who had possession of a firearm in your formation?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He is the only person who had a lot of firearms, because others, we did not have the firearms we were using some home made guns that we used to buy for R30-00 from ordinary people.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, proceed.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, you just mentioned that he was the only one who had a firearm and you used to buy some home- made guns for R30-00, now on the day that you tried to shoot the victim, with what sort of gun did you try to shoot the victim?  A home-made firearm, or a real firearm?

CHAIRPERSON: It's a real firearm.  Don't we have that evidence Mr Panday?  Yes.  What - the evidence that we need is to show that this firearm was used for pursuing the political objectives that they sought to pursue.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, you mentioned to us that the firearms you would have got is the one Mdo showed to you, where to get it from.  Now what was the purpose of Mdo showing you where these firearms were kept or hidden?

MR MALAN: Can't we just find out where they were kept or hidden?  Isn't that important?

MR PANDAY: Yes, Mr Chairman.  Mr Dlamini, where were these firearms kept?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: They were buried somewhere.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: In some premises.

CHAIRPERSON: Whose premises were those?  Please just give us full information.

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He had buried them in his premises just next to his door.  There was a box that he had made and he put those weapons in that box and buried the box.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it the first time that you had used that firearm?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No, I was not using it for the first time.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that firearm used for purposes of pursuing the objectives of fighting with the IFP at Shayamoya?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that was used, that was for the very first time.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you use the firearm for purposes of attacking members of the IFP at Shayamoya?  Did you personally use the firearm prior to this incident?  Did you ever use the firearm for purposes of attacking IFP members at Shayamoya, that you had this conflict with as ANC members.

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: No, that was never used before by myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Panday.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlamini, with the firearms, was there ammunition provided?

MR MALAN: I'm not following your question Mr Panday, can you repeat that please?

MR PANDAY: Where they obtained the firearms ...(intervention).

MR MALAN: Well is he talking about one firearm, or are we talking about more firearms?  What are we establishing?

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, the applicant mentioned that a box was buried with firearms.

MR MALAN: That right.  Did he take out the box?  We have only evidence about the one.  Can we find out about the other arms?  Who had them?  What happened to them?