Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

ANTON PRETORIUS: I would regard myself as such, officially I was that. Whoever wanted to know something about Soweto requested me to come.

YASMINE SOOKA: Pardon my ignorance but if a request came from Trewits for information, is it not logical that it should come through you as the official representative on Trewits?

ANTON PRETORIUS: It depends.  Like I've said, the divisional commander received all the telexes. If it was sent by telex or ordinary mail, there was the admin. section who opened those and then went to the divisional commander. If that person - because it wasn't addressed to me personally as far as I can remind myself, communication and by means of letters wasn't done in the name of Colonel Pretorius for instance, it was addressed to the divisional commander at Soweto and he was then forced to give it to me or somebody else.
 However, because I normally handle this, essential things came to me. However other things with regard to the admin. office - let's say for instance they needed a photograph of Jimmy for instance and the admin. person did have a photograph of Jimmy on file, then they could answer the request, why would it then come to me?

YASMINE SOOKA: It would also mean therefore that if a request came for a profile on Mrs Winnie Mandela that the request would certainly come to you because that's not an administrative function?

ANTON PRETORIUS: With regard to Mrs Winnie Mandela, I had no file on Mrs Mandela.

YASMINE SOOKA: Now you're not listening to me.  You have a file on Mrs Mandela and it's somewhere situated in the administrative section, now you've said to me that you the official Trewits representative, you go to the Trewits meetings and you've mentioned other people who go to those meetings as well. Now I've asked you the question but surely as the official representative for Trewits, if there's a request from any other section the request should come to you.
 You've explained to me that it would come to the section, the administrative section and if it involved a purely administrative matter such as taking a photograph out of the terrorist file, they would attend to that. But when we talk about more substantive issues, like a profile - and I'm using that as an example, a profile perhaps of Mrs Mandela, on your own version if there was such a request, it would come to you because admin. would not be able to deal with it yes or no?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission I don't recall having received such a request with regard to Mrs Mandela.

YASMINE SOOKA: You're not answering my question, I want you to listen very carefully.  I'm saying that we should draw a distinction between purely administrative matters which any clerk in an admin. section can tend to, but here we are talking about profiles built up from intelligence received from surveillance and you were the kind of person who would have contributed to drawing up that kind of profile.  Now if it involved a request like that and I use it as an example, a profile of Mrs Mandela or a profile of any other Soweto activist, it would be logical to assume that that's something that the admin. section would not be able to deal with and you would be the only person that, that request would come to?

ANTON PRETORIUS: That is right.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you. Thank you, that's fine.

ANTON PRETORIUS: Like I have told you it could come to me.

MR VALLY: I ask a few brief questions to finish off. These Trewits meetings, they would consist of representatives from Military Intelligence, National Intelligence Services as well as Security Branch, is that correct?

ANTON PRETORIUS: It existed of the Safety Branch, Military Intelligence and I think National Intelligence, those are the three components.

MR VALLY: Fine.  Are you aware that there were these lists of names or structures where different people who have been prioritised would have the names in a certain order and this order would change from time to time? Are you aware of such lists which were discussed at these meetings?

ANTON PRETORIUS: There was such lists yes.

MR VALLY: And are you telling me that - I'm sorry and each list, each branch of Trewits would have a list?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Of the four components that I have mentioned each should have such lists.

MR VALLY: And would Soweto have a list of it's have a list of its own?

ANTON PRETORIUS: That is true because I had to update it.

MR VALLY: And in terms of your list for Soweto are you telling me that one of the most prominent political activists, who you say in your own words was possibly linked to MK activity, was not on that list?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission, I think Mr Vally is trying to mislead me. He talks of one list but I'm referring to something else. Which list is he talking about, he has to be more specific. Is he referring a list on which Mrs Mandela's name appears or is he referring to MK lists, in a specific country? What list is he referring to, I have no idea of what list he is referring to. I'm talking of MK lists and APLA lists which had to be updated.

MR VALLY: Very well, it's fair enough. I know you people had lists for buildings, you had lists for vehicles, you had a list for MK. Where would a person like Mrs Madikizela Mandela fit in, which list?

ANTON PRETORIUS: As far as I know she wouldn't have fitted into any of those lists.

MR VALLY: Well tell me which lists did you have, not a list for buildings or people, sorry not a list for vehicles or buildings, the list for people? Which list did you have that you maintained?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission, we updated the lists of the different machinery of Umkhonto we Sizwe, the Transvaal machinery, the rural machinery, special operations and so forth. I don't have all that information in front of me, those are the lists we updated.

MR VALLY: And Mrs Madikizela Mandela did not appear on any of the lists?

ANTON PRETORIUS: As far as I know, I have never seen Mrs Mandela's name on any of those lists.

MR VALLY: Did you have a list for something called the military committee?

ANTON PRETORIUS: The Military Council of MK? It is possible but I don't recall a specific list of the military council which was in any case seated overseas.

MR VALLY: Did he call the revolutionary high command list?

ANTON PRETORIUS: The Revolutionary High Command, ja.

MR VALLY: Was Mrs Madikizela Mandela's name on such a list?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission, like I've already told you, it is possible that her name appeared on it but I can't with all due respect say so today. If I saw the list I would be able to identify it but I don't recall that Mrs Mandela's name appeared on any of the things I had.

MR VALLY: Well I just want to point out in a document given to us in the annexures by Mr Potgieter and I'll show it to you, it is annexure JDP 4 where you've got
"I've ensured the document by Lieutenant Reineke,"
your colleague.
"where upon the national machinery the interim Revolutionary High Command is set out. As far as the Revolutionary High Command is concerned I can comment as follows: The military committee: chairman Sipho, vice Mama."
In brackets you've got:
"Winnie Mandela."
I want to show this to you.

ANTON PRETORIUS: Could I just ask the Commission whose affidavit this is?

MR VALLY: It's a Mr Simon Modise, an MK guerrilla and this was handed in by Lieutenant Reineke.

ANTON PRETORIUS: With all due respect if this was the military committee, MK wouldn't have come very far because this Sipho Lucky is as far as I'm concerned definitely not part of the military committee. What military committees are they referring to? Because they literally had hundreds of military committees. If I'm talking about MK Military Committee, then the chairman Sipho and Lucky could be whoever but it definitely according to me couldn't have been the High Command.