Human Rights Violation Hearings — Nelspruit — 1996-09-04

MOSES LENTSHISI THEMBA: What I can say to you is that those are the reasons I have given to them, that James left me as a parent. He never said good-bye. You can meet him, who is supporting him now? He said to me don't worry. How can a child say that to me don't worry. To indicate that he was no more suffering. I have even forgotten to mention that he received petrol from one businessman and was given money to destroy my property. In other words,  when we were discussing with Mr Padiachey, the aim of their visit was to try to identify what the conflict is.  Only to find that he is not interested. But later he agreed to shake the hands with me, and we had to open the Bible. Until now that they came and we discussed.

MS MKHIZE: As I have said, what is important to us is to have a reason, in fact, what conflict, was there any conflict between you and him?

MOSES LENTSHISI THEMBA: No, there wasn't any conflict. I am also a member of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: I am going to ask people for the last time to keep quiet. I will remind you that I have the power to have you removed from this room. The whole day we have heard a number of witnesses and we have accorded them a certain kind of dignity to allow them to tell their stories.

MS MKHIZE: Lastly, before I take this opportunity back to the Chairperson, as you said to us you are a businessman and you are educated. Didn't you realise that there was a need that you take this issue to court, because you had no financial problems by that time and you had suspects.

MOSES LENTSHISI THEMBA: I don't know whether I tried to explain.  The
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burning of the shop is clearly indicated that I became financially bankrupt. Even today I have nothing. Even if I could take it further to the lawyers and attorneys. All those who were investigating, they say those people whom you suspect they say they are innocent. Until now that I get the correct information.  Where one member from the team managed to approach me and say we were a team responsible for that.  I therefore capitalise on the chance of this Truth Commission to talk to the Commission, because I do not have even money now. I operate in my business by getting financial assistance from the family, because I have got no money. I used to get 400, R500,00 from members of the families to get the store.  Then the following week I used to pay them.

MS MKHIZE: I therefore believe that the Chairperson is going to explain.

CHAIRPERSON: I am going to ask the other Commissioners if they want to ask any more questions.  Mr Themba, your story is a very difficult one and it is a problem which the Commission faces, because technically arson is not really a category included in the definition given in the Act.  There have been however a number of arson cases which are associated with a political motive. The Commission is hearing them but they have not yet established a clear policy on whether they are going to categorise arson as a category under the definition of severe ill-treatment.  So yes, we are hearing your case, but it is a matter which is still being investigated, because there are a number of arson cases which have come to the Commission.  We will investigate the matter further and will try and obtain a clear guideline on what the Commission is going to do about
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the arson cases.  Thank you for sharing your story with us.

MOSES LENTSHISI THEMBA: Can I ask something?  Tell you something. It is something that I do not understand when you say it is not politically motivated.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you misunderstand me. I am not saying that it is not politically motivated. I am saying that in terms of the Act, you know the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act, the definition of gross human rights violations, talks about killings, abduction, torture or severe ill-treatment. Now arson is not included in that definition. However, through the work of the Truth Commission in the months that have gone by, there have been a number of arson cases, which have come to the Commission, which clearly have a political motive. It was clearly part of the violence that took place during our political history over the last number of years.  The Commission has to decide on where it is going to fit those arson cases.  That is why I am saying you will be hearing from us on whether it falls within this definition or not. In the meantime, however, we are hearing the arson cases and we are deciding on where to fit them in.  It is not the question of the political motive that is in issue; it is the question of definition and how wide we are going to interpret that definition.  Is that understood?

MOSES LENTSHISI THEMBA: Thank you, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for sharing your story with us.
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