Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-18

CHAIRPERSON: Welcome to this session of the hearings. Mr Shabalala may I remind you that you are still under oath to speak the truth. Do you understand that?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: (s.u.o.)
	Yes I know that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. Mr Hugo you may continue.

MR HUGO: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Shabalala I just want to get back to your present ID book. Are you still using the identity book that was handed in as Exhibit F at present?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I am still using that ID.

MR HUGO: So you have not endeavoured to get a proper ID with your real name and the real particulars?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I have tried but I did not know how to go about it.

MR HUGO: May I ask you have you also got a driver's licence which is obviously should form part of the present identity book?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I do have a driver's licence that I am using in my work.

MR HUGO: And is that driver's licence in the name of Shabalala or Mavuso?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It is in the name of Mavuso.

MR HUGO: And how did you go about in getting this driver's licence in the name of Mavuso?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I proceeded to try to get a licence until I got it and it was then inserted as part of my ID.

MR HUGO: So for the purposes of Mr de Kock's testimony you didn't get a false driver's licence from Mr de Kock. You obtained this driver's licence at a later stage. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I got it after a while.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you get your driver's licence subsequent to the changed ID?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: My driver's licence I got only after I had got my ID.

MR HUGO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shabalala I just want clarity on one aspect. I did ask you about it yesterday. Is it in fact true that your recruitment took place in Newcastle and you were so-called turned by the security police in Newcastle and not via the security police at Vlakplaas. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes that is correct.

MR HUGO: So you were just handed over to the policemen that were stationed at Vlakplaas after you had been recruited?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes correct.

MR HUGO: Now when you arrived at Vlakplaas your duties were spelt out to you. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I was told.

MR HUGO: Now what were these duties again?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: My duty was to identity and to cooperate generally with the police in a proper manner.

MR HUGO: Well let me just try and make it easier for you. Mr de Kock will testify and when he comes to testify he will say that the duties of the askaris in general were the following. Maybe you must just comment as I go through these duties. One was the recruiting of sources. Do you agree with that?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I agree.

MR HUGO: Two was the tracking of arms and ammunition. Do you agree with that?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I agree with that too.

MR HUGO: And three was the recruiting of sources especially at places where people would gather socially like shebeens, etc. Do you agree with that?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes that too I agree.

MR HUGO: Then another duty was to be in a position where you could observe people moving to and fro from taxi ranks. Do you agree with that?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I don't know of that.

MR HUGO: You were never told to go to taxi ranks and or railway stations to go and look out for possible trained ANC cadres and freedom fighters?

CHAIRPERSON: Looking for them in the taxi rank and the train stations?

MR HUGO: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand the question Mr Shabalala?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I do understand it. I agree with that.

MR HUGO: And was it also part of your duties to at times pretend that you are still a trained so-called terrorist to find out or to enable you to make contact with real freedom fighters and to ascertain their whereabouts?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I agree with that too.

MR HUGO: And is it also true that you never as askaris had carte blanche to just go and kill people randomly. That these things were all done structured and on orders of your superiors. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I do not follow the question.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is that as askaris you were not free to go and kill as and when you like. You could only do so upon being given specific orders to do so. Is that your question?

MR HUGO: That is indeed the question. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand the question?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I hear the question.

MR HUGO: Well do you agree with that particular statement and the evidence that Mr de Kock will give in this regard? Is that in fact true?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I agree we were not allowed to go and kill carte blanche.

MR HUGO: Mr de Kock will also testify Mr Shabalala that the protection of the identities and the existence of askaris were of paramount importance and that had to be protected and shielded away from the public eye at all costs. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes that is correct.

MR HUGO: Whilst we are on this topic I think you said in your affidavit that you came to know that Shosha died I think in the early nineties. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I only heard about that and that is how I put it that I heard. I cannot confirm it myself.

MR HUGO: Now Mr Shabalala I think that you testified that information on the deceased was to the effect that he was a member of the ANC. Can you remember that?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I remember.

MR HUGO: Now it is important to tell this honourable Committee who told you that the deceased was a member of the ANC?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Firstly when we got to Barkley East we heard it from the white man who came with Dandala who also read the name out and also showed us his photograph. That then made us know that he was an ANC member. He emphasised that Shosha also knew the deceased in that they together had been to training outside. That is what I can say.

MR HUGO: And you cannot recall the name of this white man who gave you the information at the time?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I do not know the name. I did not ask that white man.

MR HUGO: Now didn't you find it peculiar that you being a member of the South African Police were now instructed to go into Transkei which was a foreign country to go and carry out an operation?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: As far as I could see it to me it made no difference because I was only following orders that I got then.

MR HUGO: But didn't you find it necessary to say to him but look if the Transkei wants to take action against their own people they must do their own dirty work why must we do it for them?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I could have done so but it was not easy for me to ask.

MR HUGO: Well why was it not easy for you to ask?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: There were seniors who were there who knew everything and I just had to follow orders. I didn't know much and comply with those orders.

MR HUGO: Mr Shabalala I just want to get back to the identity document again. I am just going through within the sequence that you testify. Do you have any personal knowledge as to how Mr de Kock had to go about things to arrange for a forged identity document to be given to you?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I do not know.

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman in this regard Mr de Kock will testify at length as to how he did this but it will serve no purpose whatsoever to put it to this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes very well Mr Hugo.

MR HUGO: Mr Shabalala were you to your personal knowledge aware of the fact that there was close co-operation between the South African Police more specifically the security police in South Africa and the security police in Transkei before this incident, during this incident and after this incident?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I did not know.