Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... do you have?

WITNESS:   I have four children.  The eldest one is a girl.  She is 20.  The second one is a boy.  He is 16.  The third one is a girl.  She is 14.  The fourth one is a girl.  She is 11 years old.

MR LYSTER: You're not working.  How are you managing to live?

WITNESS:   I am not working.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... support yourself?

WITNESS:   As I have already said I try by all means.  I am still involved in gambling even now, and there's no security in gambling.  You don't know whether you are going to come back with money or you're going to come back without.  My wife is also baking, she's selling cakes.  That's how we try to make ends meet, but the money is not sufficient for the whole family.

MR LYSTER: (Inaudible) ... Mvubu, I am just going to ask my fellow Commissioners and Committee Members whether they have any questions.

MRS GCABASHE: We have heard your painful story.  I would just like to find out, during your detention were you ever given a chance to meet a lawyer?

WITNESS:   No, we were not given a chance to see a lawyer.

MRS GCABASHE: Did you have permission for relatives to visit you?

WITNESS:   Our parents didn't even know where we were.  They just know that we have been arrested.  They didn't even know the place.  They were not allowed to know.  Even a person like coming from a place we were not allowed to talk to such a person, because if we talk to these people they will arrest them too.

MRS GCABASHE: When they released you what were the reasons for your release?

WITNESS:   They didn't tell us any reason.  They just told us to go home.  And they used to come and look for us.

MRS GCABASHE: Thank you.

MRS GCABASHE: I just want to clarify my records.  If I remember well the first question that they asked you, they asked you whether you were married or not.  You said you are not married, but I just heard you mentioning a wife with four children.  Can you explain to us exactly what's the situation?

WITNESS:   We are not legally married, we

MRS GCABASHE: are just staying together.  The one who is staying with me is just a friend.  She doesn't have four children, she had only two children.  Like my first girlfriend had two kids by me.  She is my girlfriend.  We are not legally married.  Yes.

WITNESS:   I think this was caused because of the oppression.

MRS GCABASHE: Mandla, you have explained your painful situation.  As you have expressed you are even shameful to be with your children.  Can you tell us about your educational background?  Up to what level did you study?

WITNESS:   I finished at standard eight.

MRS GCABASHE: Did you pass standard eight?

WITNESS:   No.

MRS GCABASHE: Did you ever work somewhere?  Do you have any work experience?

WITNESS:   I used to work as an issue clerk in one company.

MRS GCABASHE: Do you have any skills, or do you wish to acquire any skills on a particular job?

WITNESS:   No, I don't have any hope.  I don't think I can do anything now because I also had a stomach operation.

MRS GCABASHE: Mandla, a 41-year-old person is not that old to study further and acquire some skills, and I would like to advise you to try to find out whatever career that you might like to follow.  You can attend evening classes for a six month diploma or anything like this that you can have something to survive.

WITNESS:   I might be very happy to take such a chance, especially if I can get a chance to do the studies at night.

MRS GCABASHE: Mandla, I only have one question for you.  Normally when people are harassed or tortured or kept in solitary confinement the main aim was just to torture you psychologically.  Most people who have suffered the same way they normally come out with psychological disorders.  I would like to ask you do you still feel the same?  Are you healthy?

WITNESS:   I would say there's a difference.  It's just that from the time they took me from Mooi River I had some headaches, but it's not that bad.  But I was confused at the time, and I used to help myself by counting the fence wires, so I was just counting the squares so that I can keep on - my brain can keep on functioning.  So I used to know all the squares in the windows of the cell.  I only did this to exercise my mind, because they didn't allow me to read any books.

MRS GCABASHE: Does it mean that at the present moment you are feeling well?

WITNESS:   Yes, although I have some few headaches, but I am still fine.

MRS GCABASHE: You said that you have been operated.  Why were you operated?

WITNESS:   I will like to say that this is a separate incident from my torture.  This happened while I was at home.

MRS GCABASHE: Thank you.

MRS GCABASHE: (Inaudible) ... coming in, having waited patiently to give your evidence all day.  Like Mr Kubheka, who gave evidence earlier on today, and Mr Xaba, who gave evidence on Wednesday, you have given us very detailed evidence of torture which took place at the hands of the Security Branch, the Security Police, at Loop Street Police Station.  You were held from September 1976 until November 1977, where you were detained without trial and tortured. The methods which the police used to torture you, the methods which you have described to us, have been used all over the country by other members of the Security Branch.  In Cape Town and Johannesburg many people gave evidence before this Commission about torture which they received at the hands of the police, and in many cases exactly the same sorts of torture were used.

MRS GCABASHE: Also, like Mr Xaba and Mr Kubheka, the person who you say was responsible for leading your torture and interrogation was the same person, was a Mr Dreyer.

MRS GCABASHE: Although this happened 20 years ago it's clear that it has had a lasting effect on your life, and we see that you are still suffering as a result of it.  As you have heard me say today, we don't have the power to assist you directly, that's not within our power as a Commission, but we are able to make recommendations to the Government as to how they may assist people like yourself, and we will be making recommendations to the Government in that regard.

MRS GCABASHE: So we would like again to thank you very much for coming in and tell us your story today, and we hope that you manage to stay away from gambling.  Thank you very much, Mr Mvubu.

MRS GCABASHE: /MR LYSTER