Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-01

MS THABETE: Actually I was asking about reports of incidents that had occurred, where people maybe were killed or injured?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Oh, from the Self Defence Units?

MS THABETE: Yes.

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes, I am sure Sithole will indicate this in his submission.  There were instances where Self Defence Units were involved in combat clashes with the Security Police, places like Umlazi, kwaMashu, etc.

MS THABETE: You don't remember any specific incidents?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: No, I can't remember, because I was not involved in the operational aspects, you see.

MS THABETE: No further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We will take a short tea
adjournment now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, do you have any re-examination?

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Radebe, the evidence you have given so far, in relation to the role that Mr Sithole had, was that Mr Sithole was responsible for the practical implication of things on the ground, as regards the operations of the SDU's, is that correct?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: In your position, did you have personal knowledge of what exactly Mr Sithole was doing?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I did not have personal information of what he was doing, based on the understanding that he is a highly trained person, that I knew personally and also we trusted that his judgement, whatever he did, would be in accordance with his own training as a person, but above all understanding the policy of the ANC and the implications of the involvement of MK.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Now, you briefly indicated in answer to a question by my colleague, Ms Thabete, that things were quite bad in Natal.
	I think it is quite important to just emphasise that.  Can you give us more detail about what the conditions were like in Southern Natal at the time you were put in this position where there was a necessity of Self Defence Units to be established?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I think I lack the words of a poet to describe the difficult circumstances under which our people used to live here.
	In short our people were victims of a ruthless war of attrition against them.  As I indicated almost on a daily basis, I used to bury comrades, I used to get phones of attacks by the police.  Places like Umkababa, Port Shepstone, massacres of people at Umlazi. 
	At one point I remember very well in 1992, there were about 13 of our people who were killed at Umlazi.  They were killed when they wanted, we wanted to bury those people.  The local authority of Umlazi refused permission for us to bury our people.
	We even went to the Supreme Court for a mandamus application which was rejected by the Supreme Court.  We had to make a demonstration with 13 dummy coffins in the street of Durban, in West Street.  You will go to areas like Inanda, you will find bodies of comrades laying down, you will communicate with the police, the Defence Force.  They totally had no interest, except as I indicated in my evidence, one Colonel Lawrence who was willing to go the extra mile in trying to resolve the situation.
	It was really a horrible situation to live in Southern Natal.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, there is no further re-examination.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.  Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask Mr Radebe?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, just a few questions Mr Chairperson.  Mr Radebe, these SDU's were established to protect specific communities aligned to any specific political party or was it just generally communities which were under attack?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: In general these Self Defence Units were established in all those areas which were under attack.
	Unfortunately all those areas that were constantly under attack, were areas which were generally supportive of the ANC and the democratic movement in general.  So in a sense, almost all those areas were areas which were sympathetic to the ANC.  In fact, it is a result that we even gained an impression that the Security Forces were not keen to assist us when (indistinct), in as much as in many of those instances, the police were in the forefront of atrocities against our people.

MR SIBANYONI: Is it possible to say how many SDU's were established in the region where you were the Chairperson of the ANC?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: As I indicated, SDU's were a spontaneous
creation of the masses of people whenever there was violence in those areas, so I am unable to say with certainty how many of those SDU's were formed.
	But in almost all the areas that were inflicted by violence, you will find SDU's mushrooming there.

CHAIRPERSON: It is also correct, sometimes you've got more than one SDU in a particular area?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes, it is possible.

MR SIBANYONI: Even those SDU's which were not established by the ANC, let's say it was spontaneous response from the community, your structures were responsible, in other words, they were responsible to either give training to them or any supportive, to give any support?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes, whenever our especially MK comrades who were in those communities, then they would play that supportive role, but at all times these SDU's were community structures, whether MK was there or not, those communities would find ways of defending themselves.
	I indicated for example that they even manufactured their own weapons which they used to call "uxashu", which is a reflection of this community involvement in the establishment of SDU's.

MR SIBANYONI: Last question, the SDU's were sanctioned by the ANC, in other words they were established as a result of resolutions taken by the ANC.  Why do you deem it necessary to deem it necessary for establishing SDU's?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: The first point, it is true, it is the ANC as a political leader of the majority of South Africans took it upon itself, a responsibility that we cannot remain unmoved in the face of a total onslaught against ANC supporting communities, so as a national liberation movement, I believe it was a correct decision by the ANC to support the creation of the Self Defence Unit.
	As in all conflicts, people get injured, people get killed, in as much as in retrospect we never intended that by our actions, those consequences will ensue.
	That is why it is a matter of record that as an ANC we regret in terms of all the things that has happened, but the point however, also is to also pay special tribute to all those comrades and people who stood up in the face of this total onslaught in defence of our people, in defence of our country.
	I believe that they created an embryo of the formation of the new democratic society.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sibanyoni.  Mr Lax, do you have any questions?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.  Just to pick up on an aspect that Mr Sibanyoni raised with you and that was existing or spontaneous SDU's.  It is a pretty well known fact that the political violence in this province, preceded 1990 by many years and that in many, many communities there were existing defence structures already by the time the ANC was unbanned and by the time it then endorsed the need for defence.
	What steps did you say as a political leader of that time, a person carrying political accountability if you like, take to ensure that those existing structures came under the ambit of the general policy directions and so on?