Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1998-09-07

SISI KHAMPEPE: I'm still a little unclear about it, how these instructions were given and how reports were actually given to you from your sub-units.  You must have been in some kind of control of your sub-units?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Yes, we do have the control but the other thing is that a unit cannot give, let's say names, we have to consider the security situation, that we are not allowed, we are going to guerilla warfare, that we should write reports.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The only reason why we are posing these questions is we have to ascertain whether there was an offence which was committed or not before we can either consider whether you qualify for amnesty or not.

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I hope you understand.

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: I'm saying that to throw a grenade against a councillor, during those days and even presently, it is an offence according to the law.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, but you don't know whether that grenade was thrown to a councillor or not since no reports were ever given back to you.

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: What I'm trying to indicate is that new in the newspapers were being read, that there were attacks, and we knew that our sub-units were carrying attacks against councillors.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, can you maybe state to us how did you ...[intervention]

MR KOOPEDI: May I just say that there are no further questions from my side at this stage?
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

ADV STEENKAMP: I apologise Mr Chairman, to my colleague there as well.
	Sir, can you state how did you see or how did you understand your political motive?  Can you explain to us your political motive for engaging in these acts for which you are applying for amnesty?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: The political motive, it has been stated by my fellow applicants, and I don't think that we have to continue with the same question in different forms, because it has been answered by my fellow applicants and even my commander as a head of the unit.

ADV MOTATA: But Mr Ndlovu, you are before us as an applicant, and if we had to look at you and say the others have answered for you, what would ...[indistinct] be saying what you said before us, which would be considered either to grant or refuse amnesty, we wouldn't be having that.  So it might be a repetition but please answer the questions as posed to you.

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Will you repeat your question?

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you indicate to us what your political motive was, or how did you understand your political motive at the time, when committing these acts.

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: The political motive was that I wanted to liberate our country from colonial forces and imperialist forces because our people were being under constant military attacks, assaults and tortures.   And again, to boost the moral of our people and to secure a clear environment for victory in our liberation struggle.

ADV STEENKAMP: Help me if I'm wrong.  I don't know the ANC policies as well as you do, but was it also the ANC policy to act against colonialism or actions, or can you explain what the ANC policy was regarding these attacks?  How did you understand the ANC policy regarding the identification of targets.  Let's start there.

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually what I can say is that when it comes to ANC policy, the policy of the African National Congress there's never mentioned in its political history that we should attack whites in particular.  And again there is no policy in the ANC that states that we should run amok attacking civilians, either black or white.

ADV STEENKAMP: Who gave you your instructions Sir?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: To do?

ADV STEENKAMP: Sorry.  In the Wimpy Bar and the Katlehong incidents, who gave you your instructions in those incidents?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually in that question, the decision was taken after we have met and we have discussed extensively about the presence of the enemy at Wimpy Bar, but Wimpy Bar, it was not the actual target, our target was these people who were murdering our people and sustaining apartheid structures within our country.

ADV STEENKAMP: And who did the reconnaissance in the Wimpy Bar incident?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually I was given the mandate to that, to do that reconnaissance.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you tell us what exactly you reported?  What information did you get that you reported to your commanding officer?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually, the reports were as follows:  Every Saturday, because the enemy spent sleepless nights working overtime until Saturdays, Sundays, during the week.  The information was that the security, especially those who are from the higher ranks, were meeting there inside the Wimpy Bar to debrief their informers, to extract information from various operatives under their command.

ADV STEENKAMP: Where did this information come from, where did you get this information from?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually the information, it was from the former political detainees around our country.

ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, help me if I'm wrong please.  On your own you couldn't verify this, you heard this from other detainees, am I right?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: No, you are wrong.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you explain?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually we got information from former political detainees, those who were involved in our revolution, that those policemen were buying food from Wimpy Bar and they are frequenting the area.

ADV STEENKAMP: But have you seen this yourself, have you seen police actually buying, Security Branch police visiting and frequently the place, having meetings with informers, did you see this yourself?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Yes.

ADV STEENKAMP: How did you identify the Security Police, did you know them, because we all know they were wearing plain clothes?  Did you identify them yourself and the informers?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually I've seen them several times doing their job inside Wimpy Bar and so through continued reconnaissance we have decided, together with my fellow applicants, that our operation should be carried out.

ADV STEENKAMP: But how did you know they were Security Branch police but just visiting the Wimpy Bar?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually they were using or utilising the cars which belonged to the state with the registration at the end, B and in the beginning, B.  So that is the identification that this vehicle belonged to the state.  Whatever they are wearing civilian clothing, an enemy is an enemy, it can't change.

ADV STEENKAMP: Did you know there was a police kiosk just opposite the Wimpy Bar?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Our mandate or our main focus was not ...[intervention]

ADV STEENKAMP: No, no, my question is: "Did you know there was a police kiosk opposite the Wimpy Bar"?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: No, I didn't.

ADV STEENKAMP: Didn't you see it?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: No.

ADV STEENKAMP: If I put it to you that evidence will be led that there was a kiosk operating, it was an operational kiosk used by the police, or basically a small police station, you can't say anything about that?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually what I can say is these are news and the new information for me.

ADV STEENKAMP: But Sir, you did the reconnaissance.

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Yes, I did.

ADV STEENKAMP: You frequented this area, as I understand from your commanding officer, not once but a few times.

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Yes, but the concentration was not on a kiosk, we wanted to hit the main target, the main planners.  Kiosk it was nothing because let's say we have attacked their seniors, it will put a direct impact on the psychology of apartheid.