Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-13

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, because I did not want to contractually co-operate with the Defence Force as a result of this infighting between, call it the Defence Force Structure and the CCB, I was fired.  So I was not allowed back on my own premises.  Then there was a big fuss from the Harms Commission and there was a big fuss in the press about how files had been hidden away, and what I did is I got someone because I was not allowed on my own premises that I started myself, and I gave documentation to this guy, I said:  "Go and put this on the file", and he later on - I can't remember the name of this person, but they confirmed that they put the documentation back in the files in the administrative offices.  So this was a story by the previous government to pretend as if files had been hidden and that we hid it and that we were responsible for this.  ...(transcriber's interpretation)

GEORGE BIZOS: That's as far as the audit documents are concerned.  What about project files?  What happened to them?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: At that stage that was the case and then I think in my attorney's possession there is documentation where I was invited somewhere early in the 90's, I was then chased away, I was then not a member of the structure anymore, where I was invited to join the final burning of the files to ensure that the files were indeed destroyed and I said that I was not interested in this, I did not want to be present and it was then done by the Defence Force Structure.

GEORGE BIZOS: So the file of Evans, the file of Omar under their appropriate project names, were destroyed?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I do not know.  I was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, when you get to the end of the line, we'll take the adjournment for the day, but only when you're finished your line of questioning.

GEORGE BIZOS: Can you just tell us, who destroyed those files?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That was in the financial plan, a destruction procedure was set out after the completion of procedures.  It was approved and this documentation is in the possession of the Commission.  The whole financial procedure, so it could have been destroyed in terms of this document, but I was no longer a member of the structure, so I do not know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who destroyed the, never mind the financial files, but the project files?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, I was not present Mr Chairperson, I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Who invited you to be present?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I do not know.  Mr Chairperson, we can ask this from my attorney.  There is a letter.  Let's call it the disbanding Committee of the CCB, of the South African Defence Force, if I have to guess.  Maybe this document is still in the possession of the attorney, I do not know.  This is Mr Alex Bosman, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were the project files available at the time of the Harms Commission?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, Mr Chairperson, I think that at that stage of the files had already disappeared.

GEORGE BIZOS: If anyone has given evidence that it was a plan which you were in charge of in order to get rid of the project files, would that evidence be correct or incorrect?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: There was a procedure at that stage according to which we, as a result of the disclosure of the structure, certain operational structures,  was made available to stop that some of the documentation be made available to the Holmes Commission and I cannot remember if I was a member of this structure or not.

GEORGE BIZOS: In order to get rid of the files?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: This was the procedure according to which we handled covert files.

GEORGE BIZOS: I don't know what that means.  Was that a plan to destroy the project files?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No I do not know of any plan according to which files had to be destroyed.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were they produced to the Harms Commission?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, files had already been gone at that stage,  Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Would those files have - were they of vital concern to you because they would have exposed practically everything that you did in the CCB?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: There were files where the whole structure and the entire Defence Force Structure was worried about due to the political implication of this, it would be exposed.

GEORGE BIZOS: ;   Did anyone, in all these discussions or offers that were made to you, anyone suggest that whoever was doing it, it was suggested was attempting to defeat the ends of justice?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I think it was put to all of us like that at the Harms Commission, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you aware of the finding of His Lordship Mr Justice Harms that, to use the following words
"I have no doubt that the persons who are directly responsible for the disappearance of the documents are Verster, Brand, Cillier and Britz".
Are you aware of that finding?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I can recall it, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who is Cillier?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I do not know, it is an administrative name, I can't remember that.

GEORGE BIZOS: And Britz?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: This was Mr Wouter Basson, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Try and think about Cillier, because maybe we can get some information from him.  What was his position in the structure?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Who was this?

GEORGE BIZOS: Braam Cillier.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes, that's correct.  He was responsible for the files at Special Forces Headquarters.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that his name?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, that is also a false name and that is also why I could not remember the surname, but Braam Cillier was the person who handled the files in that period that I was sacked and that I left the Headquarters during the whole investigation and then there was certain files that were at Special Forces Headquarters that I could not go to, so with our structure, had certain files and Special Forces Headquarters had some files and there was co-operation between the different structures.

CHAIRPERSON: Would this be a convenient stage?  Thank you Mr Bizos.  We've come to the end of today's proceedings.  We'll adjourn for the day and what will be a convenient time to start?  9 o'clock?  Would that be convenient?  We'll start again tomorrow at 9 o'clock in the morning, same venue.  So we'll now adjourn until 9 tomorrow morning.  Thank you very much.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS