Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-07

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chair.  Mr Nosenga, I want to show you Exhibit M2, the aerial photograph of the Boipatong township and Slovo Park township.  Again just to put you in the picture, I want to point out certain points and then ask certain questions.  You indicated to me yesterday that the casspirs originally gathered in that open veld area across the factories, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is what I said.

MR STRYDOM: And then you also indicated that, or you testified that the place where you entered the township, was approximately in the middle of the township, and I am going to indicate approximate middle of the township where the vehicles entered, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Now today you gave evidence about five houses that you went into, would that be houses more or less in the area shortly after you have entered the middle of the township?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.  Even though I cannot see clearly, but that is how it is.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, and then you said that you carried straight on with the road.  If I indicate a route, would you agree with that?  I am going to indicate in the middle of Boipatong township going down to the centre of the township, is that the route that was followed?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not see quite clearly here.  It is mixed up here, I cannot follow.  I said we went into the first house.

MR STRYDOM: I don't want you to point out specific houses.  Let me point out Slovo Park to you, do you see the Slovo Park area which I am pointing out to you now?  Do you see that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, yes, I can see Slovo Park.

MR STRYDOM: From the place where you entered Boipatong you said you went straight down and then made a turn and went further down to Slovo Park, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, yes, we took the main taxi route.

MR STRYDOM: Yes.  If I point to you that the shops are in the vicinity, in the middle of the township there is some open space there, in that vicinity, would you agree with me the shops are somewhere there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, there is a shop there if not shops, near the ranks.

MR STRYDOM: Yes.  And then you continued further down until you get a place close to Slovo Park where you also see trees, are those the trees you referred to?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, those are the trees I was talking about.

MR STRYDOM: Then you said that the casspirs came to a standstill.  I want you to indicate if it is possible for you, to indicate more or less where these casspirs came to a standstill, the four casspirs.  Was it close to the trees?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They came to a standstill on the street, they did not get into the shacks.  These are the shacks here.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, just for record purposes, the witness  indicates a position just left of the trees as depicted on the photograph, the open space.

CHAIRPERSON: He has indicated on Exhibit M2 is it?

MR STRYDOM: That is M2.

CHAIRPERSON: M2?  Right, would you show us?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, can I mark it with a circle, the indicated position of the - is that right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, these are the shacks, these are the trees, the casspirs came to a standstill on the streets.

CHAIRPERSON: Show your other colleagues first, yes.

INTERPRETER: Mr Chairperson, is it possible that the Interpreters be furnished with the map, so that we can interpret correctly as it has been stated?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have an extra map?

MR STRYDOM: Unfortunately we do not have an extra map available.

MR MAPOMA: I have given them a copy.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR LAX: Can we proceed, Interpreters?

INTERPRETERS: Yes, we may continue.

MR STRYDOM: You also said something about a hostel, and that hostel is where you passed on your way back.  Now can you point out a hostel on this map or give an indication more or less where this hostel is?  To make it easier for you Mr Nosenga, is it close to Slovo Park or the middle of Boipatong, on the side of Boipatong, or can you give any indication where this hostel is?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did indicate that we left the hostel behind in the township.   On your way actually to Sharpeville, you can actually see Slovo Park.  I cannot see quite clearly.

MR STRYDOM: Let me ask you like this, you have indicated the route that was followed through the township, passed the shops, then directly down to Slovo Park.  Did you follow that same route going back?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We came back on the very same direction.

MR STRYDOM: Then according to you Mr Nosenga, the hostel must be on that route again?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it is possible it is on the same route.  When we left Slovo Park, when we went to Boipatong there is a hostel after we have left Slovo Park, and there is a very big shop there and there is a taxi rank on the side, and we took the tar road, the main taxi route that is going up.

CHAIRPERSON: How far is that hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The hostel and the taxi ranks are not very much far apart.  The hostel can be perhaps at the distance as I have pointed out.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the distance, it is about four, five paces, metres?

MR STRYDOM: As the Committee pleases.  Okay, is that the distance between the hostel and the taxi rank?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The taxi rank is not far from the hostel, it can be here, that is the place that I am pointing here.  You can actually see the hostel from the taxi rank.  There are shops and there is also this main taxi route that is going up.

CHAIRPERSON: The houses I mean in this hostel, are they the same as the houses in Boipatong, are they different?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.  There are houses there next to the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but what I want to find out is the houses in the hostel, do they look the same as the houses in the township?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The hostel is close to the houses.  I really don't know how to explain this,  I have just explained to you how far the hostel is in relation to the taxi rank.

CHAIRPERSON: The houses of the hostel, the houses that comprise the hostel, are they the same as the township houses?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I think they are not the same.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think they are - I don't know how to explain this.  They have a somewhat fading white paint.

CHAIRPERSON: (No translation)

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They are big, I am just not in a position to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Are they patterned along the same township houses?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, they are not the same, the hostel houses are different.  You see in the township you have streets in between the houses, the hostel is somewhere in that place.  I don't know how to explain that.

MR STRYDOM: This hostel you are referring to, is it a multi-storey building or just a single storey building?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot say.

CHAIRPERSON: You are mumbling something, we can't hear you.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot say whether it is ...

INTERPRETER: The legal counsel is asking whether it is a facebrick building or not.

CHAIRPERSON: He is enquiring whether the hostel is a double storey or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, it is flat.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: In any event, after the shooting at the hostel, the four casspirs then left the group behind, is that right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct, the casspirs left.  The group was left behind.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, now after the group was left behind, did you shoot, did you fire any further shots?   Sorry, yes after the casspirs left from the hostel, did you fire any shots in Boipatong or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not fire any shots.  I last fired my gun at Slovo Park.