Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-14

MR KAHANOVITZ: You are right.   He then says in paragraph 5,
... I saw that on the western side of the building, a large hole had been ripped in the wall.  I determined that the explosive device was detonated at 10H35.  It was also determined that three coloured men had been injured during the explosion, and that two had reported at Athlone SA Police."
	Now when Sgt Steenkamp says that he was called to the bomb site at 20H50, do you dispute that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You cannot dispute it, therefore you cannot dispute that the bomb exploded before 20H50?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You also cannot dispute what he says namely that the bomb exploded at 20H35, and before you answer that, if necessary, I can take you through a bundle of statements of people who were there, who all say that the bomb exploded at approximately 20H30 to 20H35?  You are not going to dispute that, I assume?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I told you that according to my observations, it was closer to nine o'clock, if he says it was 20H35, I don't know on what basis he makes that statement, probably from statements that he saw, which gave him the time.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well, you didn't look at your watch, so you are not in a position to dispute this?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You accept that the bomb exploded at 20H35?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I do not accept that the bomb had exploded at 20H35.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You don't accept it?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: According to my observation, the time was not correct.  But if he puts this in his statement, I cannot dispute it, but I do not admit that the time that he gives here, is the correct time.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What will it take for me to get you to admit that the bomb exploded at 20H35?  If I show you the statements of all the witnesses who were there, who say that it happened at that time, will you admit it?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: You know Mr Chairperson, I don't know whether the time is very important to me.  I told you that according to my opinion, it was closer to nine o'clock that the explosion had taken place.
	I have now briefly seen some of the statements that had been made, to which you have referred, of the witnesses, and even in those statements, there are differences in time.  The one says the meeting started at eight o'clock and the other one says the meeting started at quarter past eight for argument's sake.
	I know what it looks like at a crime scene, afterwards people will speak to each other and then one will say the bomb exploded at that time.  It is generally accepted that that was the time that the bomb went off.
	In my own mind, I think that it was quite later that the bomb was detonated, closer to nine o'clock than to half past eight.  That is how I recall it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I will tell you why it is important.  It is important because according to the information that you received when you planned this blast, that meeting was going to end at nine o'clock, which is why you tailored your version to prefer a time for the explosion, which was half an hour later than the time that the explosion in fact occurred?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Chairperson, I deny that statement vehemently.  I ascertained that after Gakkie had identified the persons to me after the meeting had adjourned, they climbed into their vehicles and drove away, that the bomb was detonated then, and the statement that has been put to me, does not make sense to me in the circumstances.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Hardien was sent into the hall after you arrived on the scene, correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What do you say was the reason that he was sent into the hall?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I said, I specifically sent him there to go and have a look, for two reasons, to see whether the meeting of the Kewtown Youth Movement was ongoing, and secondly to ascertain whether the children that had used the place for their karate class, had already left.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What did he report to you?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: He told me there were no children in the hall and then he told me that the meeting of the Kewtown Youth Movement was still ongoing.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Williams says in his statement that he saw Mr Hardien, Mr Hardien in fact came into the meeting and spoke to him?  I assume you are not in a position to dispute that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I want to put it to you that it is quite obvious that you sent Mr Hardien in to make sure that your intended targets, your intended victims, were in their location, where you wanted them at the time when you were going to explode the limpet mine?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I deny that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Let's go to your statement at page 113 of Bundle A.

MR LAX: Just while you are going there, what time did you send Hardien in?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I beg your pardon?

MR LAX: What time did you send Hardien in to go and check the hall?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It was shortly after we arrived there, Chairperson, I would say in the vicinity of 19H45.

MR LAX: Quarter to eight?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Quarter to eight, and then I also said it is difficult, this is just an estimated time.  I would say that half an hour later, he only returned back to the vehicle.

MR LAX: You see what puzzles me is you knew the meeting was going to go on till nine o'clock, why not send him in roundabout nine, when the meeting is due to end, that way you will make sure that the meeting is over, people are leaving?  Why not send him in after the meeting is over, that is the most logical time if you want to make sure the place is empty?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I don't believe so.  I think that the manner in which I handled it, sounded quite logical to me.

MR LAX: You see, you keep saying you waited till all these people had left, you saw their cars drive away, didn't it occur to you that there might be pedestrians who were using the hall, people who would walk home from there?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: To be honest, I did not think about that.

MR LAX: You see, if you want to make sure a place is empty, like if you wanted to make sure that this hall was empty, you wouldn't send people in now, when you know that we were going to be busy all day and then wait around for five hours, until it is over?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, but I mean I received feedback from Gakkie who said that the meeting was ongoing, he identified certain people to me who were there, he identified some of those persons' vehicles to me.  I observed the vehicles and after the persons had exited the hall, and climbed into their vehicles and drove away and the parking area in my opinion, there were no vehicles in the parking area, I was satisfied that there was no one in the hall.
	I hear your argument, but that was the precaution that I made to ascertain that there were no people in the hall.
	With hindsight I can say "yes, I could have done what you have told me now."

CHAIRPERSON: And, we have heard from the evidence that that hall on that particular night, was very active?  We have heard about Kewtown, Cape Youth, soccer club, karate club you have mentioned.
	Did Gakkie give you any information relating to those other meetings, the soccer club, the Cape Youth, etc?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No Chairperson, the only information that I had available to me was with regard to the karate club and with regard to the Kewtown Youth Movement.  He did not report anything to me with regard to a soccer club, or the representatives of a soccer club who were there or anyone else.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Just on that, I had a note to ask you that question, something similar, but the question, I was going to do it later on, I might as well do it now.
	How did you ascertain which meetings were happening on that night?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That was information which I received from Gakkie.

MR LAX: So you didn't actually ask him to go and get that information?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: We knew that on that specific evening, that they would have a meeting, the Kewtown Youth Movement.