Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-25

MR LAX: And was, it is a very personal question and I am sorry to have to ask you this, but was as far as you know, Ms Kubheka in the habit of wearing panties?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: Yes, she used to wear panties.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions arising from questions that have been put by Members of the Panel, any questions?

MR VISSER: Visser on record, none from my side, thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: No questions Mr Nel?
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: No, Mr van der Merwe?
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: No, Ms Thabethe?
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel?
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Just one issue in relation to size.  In relation to your size now, Mrs Dludla, and specifically in relation to your waist size, would you be able to say how big Ms Kubheka's waist was just before her disappearance, in relation to your size?

CHAIRPERSON: That is your size now, Mrs Dludla.

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: She was smaller than I was, she had a very small waist.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.    I would just like to place one thing on record, that is arising out of my instructions over lunch time.  It is regarded culturally as very insensitive and inappropriate method of placing persons who are deceased, their clothes onto a living person, I would like the Commission to just take that into account, with respect.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sorry, I was unaware of that.  If we have offended anybody, we apologise for our ignorance in that regard.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER
Chairperson, I am sorry, but there is now something that  I have to ask of Mrs Dludla.  It is just one question, if you would allow me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MR VISSER: Mrs Dludla, what size dress do you wear?  Will you just tell us again, what size dress do you wear?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: If it is a full dress, a size 42.

CHAIRPERSON: So the dress for instance that you are wearing today, Mrs Dludla, would that be a size 42 or is it a skirt?

JABULILE ROSE DLUDLA: The shirt is a size 44, but the skirt is a size 42.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Dludla, thank you very much.  That concludes your testimony, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.  If I may put it on record, we are going to call Dr Aiyer.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Dr Naidoo has indicated that he can only be available tomorrow for the whole day, so he won't be testifying today.

MR VISSER: While Dr Aiyer is on his way, Chairperson, may I just enquire as to what the most convenient way would be to go about the measurement which we asked of Mrs Dludla.  There seems to be no report back as yet, over lunch time.  I don't know whether we should buy a measuring tape and ask her whether she is going to be here tomorrow and do the measurement here or what we should do?  That will probably be the most convenient, but I don't want to inconvenience her.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   Perhaps that might be easier, you know, if we just buy a measuring tape, one of these dressmaker's tapes and somebody, perhaps her daughter or whoever wishes, can take measurements.

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That can be of height, waist, whatever.  Either that, or a dressmaker can come here with a tape and measure everybody who needs to be measured, and clothing, etc.
	I think we should make arrangements in that regard.  Ms Thabethe, what is the situation relating to the dressmaker?  I believe that a dressmaker has been approached to measure certain items?  Do you have any feedback as to what the current status is, it was indicated to us that if that particular dressmaker was available, she would only be available to give evidence on Friday morning, which I don't think is very convenient?

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, that was the position, the dressmaker came, she measured the dresses, she compiled a report.  It is not a formal report, but she has written down, recorded her findings or the centimetres and everything, but she said she would be available on Friday.  Debra is still trying to get hold of her, if she cannot be available earlier on, probably today at about half past three.

CHAIRPERSON: If that, that would be good if that could happen, because I don't anticipate that her evidence will be very long.

MS THABETHE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: She's just got to testify as to what she measured.

MS THABETHE: We are arranging that she comes today, but we...

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Thanks a lot.  Dr Aiyer, what are your full names please?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Sagram Nomican Aiyer.

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, if I could just interrupt again here.  Mr Chairperson, I have just been handed a photograph of the deceased, which was handed back from the doctors, I think it might be of some assistance.
	If I could just hand it out, there is only one original, but I have made copies of the other.  I think it will be Exhibit R2?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.    The one sitting on the bed is R1, so this will be Exhibit R2, thank you Mr Wills.  Just pass it along the line, I think.    Mr Wills, do you have any idea as to more or less when this photograph would have been taken?

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, I haven't taken full instructions on this yet, but I will endeavour to do so, over lunch.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Yes, if we could get ...

MR WILLS: Over the evening.

CHAIRPERSON: If we could get information as to the photos that we have, more or less when they were taken, whether it is several years prior to the disappearance of Ms Kubheka, or very close before then.

MR WILLS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It will be of assistance.  This we will mark R2, it is a picture of Ms Kubheka sitting on a fence pole, with her hat on hear head, with a house in the background.  Ms Thabethe?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I do ask your forgiveness, but while we are busy with Exhibit R, could we perhaps attempt to complete the photographs because we are going to use them now in the cross-examination of Dr Aiyer.
	May I suggest Chairperson, that R3 be either of the two photographs, the one of presumably Ms Kubheka standing next to a motor car, or the one of her and the baby.  Either one of them can be R3 and the other, R4.

CHAIRPERSON: We haven't seen them, except the one with the baby we saw fleetingly yesterday.  I haven't seen the other one?

MR VISSER: Have you not been provided ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, we haven't seen them.

MR VISSER: Well, then Chairperson, it may present a problem.  Have you been provided with a colour photocopy ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, we got no photos, save for these two.

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That is R1 and R2, and then we saw that one with the baby, but just during the course of the video evidence, yesterday.

MR VISSER: It might facilitate matters if it could be arranged that you had these photographs.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Colour photographs, because you can make out nothing from the photocopies.

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, my instructions were that I make one copy of colour photographs, because of the expenditure, the expense involved in making the colour photographs.  So I don't know whether now my instructions are that I should make colour copies for everybody or can't we circulate the pictures around?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know what the expense is, and I don't know how unreasonable it would be to say that everybody get a copy, but I should imagine that it would be certainly better if at least the Panel had one to share, because we've got nothing at the moment.