Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

THAMBISO ZAKWE: Yes, that is what I am saying.  I would like to explain further.  The situation had been going on for quite some time, because the deceased started this mid 1992.  The worst incident was when he killed the Zwane family and the mother in that family was working hand in hand with the comrade.
	She was also a member of the ANC Women's League and there was a suspicion that she was selling out some comrades to the police.  That went on and on.  In 1993, he killed a girl who was 14 years old, and when he was questioned about this, he said he was testing the firearm.
	Besides that, he was involved in many things and the ANC leadership was silent about these things, but we were aware of the things that he was doing.  I tried at some stage to approach him and discuss with him about the other activities that he was involved in.
	Among other things, the last incident where he killed this girl, I told him that if he was actually testing a firearm, he wouldn't do that in the presence of the people.  We had a quarrel and he promised me that I will not survive and see up to the end of 1993.  It looked like I was the only person who was able to reprimand him about his activities.
	He showed me, he said I was a person who was talking too much, and he told me that I wouldn't live to the end of 1993.  That means that the leadership of the ANC was silent about his activities.
	It is not that all of the people were afraid of him, but they were scared of him, and they wouldn't even mention his name.

MR SIBEKO: The unlawful possession of arms, will I be understanding you correctly if I say you possessed arms or you had arms when you say you established the Self Defence Unit?  Were you the one who was responsible to get firearms?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: Yes, I was the one.  I was given a mandate by the Executive of the Youth League at the time.  After there was a fight or a squabble between the comrades at a night vigil at Sebokeng, I was given the mandate to collect the firearms and see who were the people that I can use as SDU members and work with them.
	That was my responsibility to ensure that there were arms and the people who would be trained as the Self Defence Unit in the area at Sebokeng.

MR SIBEKO: Do you know what ultimately happened to those arms that you organised and supplied to the members that you recruited?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: The firearms that were there after being collected from the other Units, we took them because they were not doing what they were supposed to do, we took them to the ANC Youth League and the others were given to the MK members in the area, and after some time, some of them were confiscated by police and the people were arrested with those arms.

MR SIBEKO: After you have, or after the killing of the deceased, was the matter reported to the Executive, and if so, when?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: Yes, after the killing of the deceased, the following day, as I had already planned a meeting with the youth who wanted to take the law into their own hands, on that particular day of the killing, there was a meeting at about twelve midday and the Executive members were called and some members of the community were called and even the Civil Organisation members were there, the ANC members were there and the other people who were victims of the deceased, they came and they attended the meeting.
	We shook hands and we discussed the procedure that was going to be followed as from that particular day.  Even the Units, the SDU who were seen to be problematic, we devised some means as to how to deal with them.  The Executive agreed to the decisions that we had taken.

MR SIBEKO: The Executive that gave you the task to establish the Unit, is it the same Executive that discussed the elimination of the deceased?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: Yes, some of the members were present since 1990.  They were still there in 1992 and 1993, though the others were not there, but as we were discussing the elimination, we had new members as well as the old members.

MR SIBEKO: When you reported back, what was the attitude of the Executive, did they ratify and adopt your action or did they associate themselves with your action?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: Yes, the Executive - not only the Executive, but the community, the majority of the community were for the idea.  They were not against it.
	After that, everyone would live free and people would move free.  People would do anything freely.

MR SIBEKO: If you were to be given an opportunity to meet the family members of the deceased, would you seize that opportunity and make peace with them in connection with the killing of the deceased?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: Yes, I would appreciate that.  From the family of the deceased, I was known and he was also well known in my family or relatives.
	I wanted this thing to, I would like us to forget about this thing, and I would like them to forgive me and carry on with my life and they carry on with their lives.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman, I don't have further questions for the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you sir.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no questions Mr Chairman.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair.  Mr Zakwe, a couple of questions, just clarify for me.  You know the first meeting that you had with the comrades, they came to complain to you about the actions of Skosana, you then said to us that you said to them that they should come back to you the following day, you, as part of the Executive team, would decide on the course of action, am I right so far?  This is what you said?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: Yes, that is what I said.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, you discussed this matter with the ANC Youth League Executive the next day, did you as the ANC Youth League, decide that Skosana should be killed or did you as an individual, on your own, decide that?  Just clarify that for me?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: The decision was taken by the ANC Youth League.

ADV GCABASHE: Then we get to the report back meeting that you have just testified to, where the community was present, the SDUs were present, where Skosana's friends essentially apologise to the community and where essentially, peace was brokered between Skosana's friends and the rest of the community, you are with me?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: Yes, I am with you.

ADV GCABASHE: You were asked if the Executive endorsed, essentially the correctness of the decision to kill Skosana.  Which Executive, I am just a bit confused about whether this was a different Executive or the same Executive that had originally taken this decision, the ANC Youth League?  Just help me with that?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: The Executive that was there since 1992 to 1993.

ADV GCABASHE: Was this the ANC Youth League Executive?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: Yes, ANC.

ADV GCABASHE: ANC, not ANC Youth League?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: It was the ANC Youth League.

ADV GCABASHE: Now again, I am still not clear, can I just start again.  The decision was taken in the first place by the ANC Youth League Executive, then the man was killed?
	Then there was a peace brokered at a report back meeting and you were asked if they had attended, I beg your pardon, you were asked if they had been informed of the decision, if they had ratified it and associated themselves with what they had done, the Executive.
	I am just asking, which Executive was this, it wasn't clarified in the question and I am wondering if it was the same Executive that we talked about before Skosana was killed, or is this a larger, different Executive?  Do you understand my confusion?

THAMBISO ZAKWE: I understand your question.  That was the Executive, the ANC Youth League Executive.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was it necessary for the ANC Youth League Executive to approve of what they had already decided?  It doesn't make sense.