Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Fine, very polite and respectful request.
 In view of the number of people serving sentences, in view of the number of young people who have been killed, in view of the number of young people who have been tortured, in retrospect, do you think that you should have handled things differently at the time?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I have given an answer Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Do you have any regret or any remorse to what has happened at the time?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Of course I have regret to the subsequent losses of life of some of the boys and I'm very deeply regretful of what has happened to some of the youngsters like Ikaneng, etc, that I regret.  But I do not regret whatsoever for having covered for those who have protected them from  the vicious system of the day.

UNKNOWN: : Thank you Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.
Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: : Thank you very much.
Mr Kades.

MR KADES: Thank you Commissioner.
Mrs Madikizela Mandela,  my name is Norman Kades and I represent the Abu-Baker Asvat family.  
 I want to take you back to the 29th of December of 1988, when Mrs Falati made the report to you concerning what she alleged to be the practices at the manse of the Methodist Church.  When she told you that did she come to you alone, or did she come to you in the company by Katiza Cebekhulu?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think it was mid-morning, I wouldn't really recall precisely what time it was.

MR KADES: And she told you that she had been informed by a youth that he had been sodomised by Verryn?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: At that stage she spoke to me about Katiza only.

MR KADES: Did she tell you that Katiza had informed her that he had been sodomised by Verryn?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is what she told me.

MR KADES: And this was a matter of grave concern to you obviously?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, the way she conveyed it to me, it was a matter of grave concern.

MR KADES: And you immediately decided that you would take this young man to Dr Asvat?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: To Dr Asvat.

MR KADES: To have him examined relating to the charge of sodomy?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, just to contextualise this properly.  At that stage Falati was more concerned about Rev Paul Verryn and this youngster because she felt that he was a danger to Rev Paul Verryn.

MR KADES: So when you took Katiza to Dr Asvat eventually, you went with two matters in mind?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KADES: The one was the sodomy and the other was the mental condition of Cebekhulu?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR KADES: And when you saw Dr Asvat, you disclosed your concerns to him?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR KADES: Of the two aspects, and insofar as you are aware, were you present at the examination?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I don't recall, but I think every doctor's practice is, when he is examining the patient, you don't remain inside.

MR KADES: Yes, I don't know about any doctor's practice, but you were the senior person who had brought Katiza, did you not accompany him into the doctor's surgery and to the examination?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I don't recall that.

MR KADES: You don't recall that.  What was the - and presumably you were concerned as to what Dr Asvat's findings were after he had examined Cebekhulu?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He came out and spoke to me.

MR KADES: And what did he tell you about the sodomy, the allegation of sodomy?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, he told me that he couldn't make any finding and that he needed to consult specialists and I assumed about both conditions.  His mental state and whatever was related to sodomy, I don't know what you can see as a specialist, I am not a doctor.

MR KADES: So at that stage you had no evidence independent of the claim made by Cebekhulu?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: None, whatsoever.

MR KADES: Who was in this confused, mental state, that the Rev Paul Verryn had been guilty of this?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, Dr Asvat did mention the fact that he was worried about Cebekhulu's mental state.  He said he seemed to be confused.

MR KADES: And is that the evidence you relied upon, the evidence of that confused young man to make the accusation against Paul Verryn that you eventually made?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I made no accusation against Rev Paul Verryn.  This information was brought to me by Falati.

MR KADES: The problem that I have Madam, is that on the 1st of February of 1989, and I have seen that in NBC documentary, you spent 15, 20 minutes making the accusation against Paul Verryn?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was not making accusations against Paul Verryn.  Up to that stage, they were the most damaging documentaries both on the BBC and various other news media about this situation.

MR KADES: Sorry damaging in respect of Paul Verryn?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: In respect of myself.

MR KADES: No, no, no, they were not talking about you for a change.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I was responding to damaging reports about myself.

MR KADES: Yes, well I have not asked you about damaging reports about yourself.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am saying I was responding to those damaging reports.  That is when I gave that interview.

MR KADES: Yes, but I am asking you questions today, you were responding to damaging reports about yourself?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KADES: And your response to the damaging reports about yourself, was this ...

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I explained myself.

MR KADES: Would you let me please.

CHAIRPERSON: Please, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, give him the chance to put his question and then you will respond.

MR KADES: You were responding to attacks made on yourself by the BBC, by in turn attacking a priest of the Methodist church in Soweto, is that what you are telling us?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: May I repeat again?

MR KADES: Please.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not make those accusations against Paul Verryn, I did not know.  I did not know Rev Paul Verryn, I was merely giving an explanation from evidence given to me by Falati.

MR KADES: Mrs Mandela, Madikizela-Mandela, that NBC documentary that I saw two weeks ago is still in existence, and if necessary the content of the documentary is before this Commission, portion of it has been read to you, and if necessary I will ask that it be shown to you.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not know what your question is, are you asking me whether you should present that documentary to this Commission?

MR KADES: Well, if you let me put the question Madam, and you don't interrupt me, then you will hear that ...

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Oh, I am sorry, I thought you had finished.

MR KADES: I understand your point.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't appear to be intimidating the witness.  I am Chairing here and if you feel the witness not to be conducting herself properly  I am the one to make that ruling.  Please,  I think on the whole, we have been relatively amicable in our relationships and I would wish for that to remain that way.

MR KADES: That is so Mr Chairman, but with due respect, if the witness doesn't answer the question, I am obliged because it is my duty to do so, to put the question and to have the witness answer the question.

CHAIRPERSON: All I am saying is I think that we ought not to have what appears to be an aggressive attitude.  What we are seeking is to arrive at the truth and this is not, as I keep saying, not a court of law, although we follow some of those proceedings and I think that we are far better able to get to the truth if people are not harassed, or feel harassed, and I would hope too Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, that you will give the counsel for the Asvat family, or whoever else questions you, the opportunity of putting their question and as far as possible to respond without getting too hot under the collar.  Thank you.