Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-29

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: He did not see that we were shooting at him.  That is how I perceive it.

MR MIRANDA: And do you know why Dlamini was asked to come with you in the combi to Joshua Doore?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: The reason behind that was that they had to transport us to town.

MR MIRANDA: The other thing that you mentioned in your affidavit is that when you left Joshua Doore, just after killing Lombo, shots were fired at yourselves.  Who fired these shots?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: Sibisi.

MR MIRANDA: Who did he shoot at?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: He was shooting at Lombo.

MR MIRANDA: So, how many times did Sibisi shoot Lombo?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: Once.

MR MIRANDA: But, let me just go back to what I stated earlier.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I just interrupt you, Mr Miranda, because I am a little confused.  I think we have here at paragraph 23, I do not know whether you were referring to that, but who fired shot as they were living the shop.

MR MIRANDA: Yes, I am referring to paragraph 23.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I just want to ask Mr Motaung in that regard.  In your affidavit you have stated that "other persons" and I would like to assume, and I need your correction in that regard, that by "other persons" you mean people other than Mr Dlamini and those who were in and Mr Sibisi.  The "other persons" that you have referred to in this paragraph would be people other than Mr Dlamini and Mr Sibisi?  Is that not so.

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: May you please repeat the question.  I did not get it very well.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In your affidavit you have stated that when you were leaving Joshua Doore after Mr Lombo had been shot by Mr Sibisi, "other persons" fired shots at you and Mr Sibisi and that is why you had to change your plan, but Mr Miranda has put a question to you and that question was, who fired the shots at you when you were leaving the shop and you said it was Mr Sibisi and Mr Dlamini.

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: We just heard shots fired.  We thought maybe it was just people around there who were shooting.  We do not know whether they were police or not.

MR MIRANDA: Thank you.  If the plan was that you would escape in the VW Golf, why was the combi still hanging around in the area?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: We ran into the combi and escaped.  We used the combi.  At Berger Street we jumped into the combi after the operation and left.

MR MIRANDA: Where was the VW Golf when this incident occurred?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: It was parked in one of the parking areas.

MR MIRANDA: Was this parking area the area where customers can park to shop at Joshua Doore.

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: That is correct.

MR MIRANDA: And who was in the VW Golf?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: It was Rita and Mandla.

MR MIRANDA: And if I understand your evidence correctly, the combi was parked in Berger Street.

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: That is correct.

MR MIRANDA: So, if you were in trouble, why did you not jump into the VW Jetta, VW Golf if it was parked just outside Joshua Doore.

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: It was a bit far.  So we decided that people should not see where we have hid the car which we will use as a runaway car.

MR MIRANDA: Would you have applied for amnesty if you were not recharged for this offence by the Criminal Court?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: Yes, I would have asked for amnesty, because I need to ask for amnesty even if they did not charge me.

MR MIRANDA: No further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MIRANDA

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, with your permission, I just want to clarify something with the witness, with the Chairs permission.

CHAIRPERSON: Just to clarify.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADVOCATE MPSHE

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Motaung, when you were asked about the position inside the shop, I recollect you responded that Sibisi was between yourself and Lombo.  Do you remember that?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: Yes, I said he was between me and Lombo at the time when we shot him, but we were not standing direct on a straight line.  He was, he came from behind me and shot at him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, how were you standing or how were you walking or standing in relation to Sibisi, I mean to Lombo?  Were you walking behind him or side by side?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: I was on the other side of Lombo.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And Sibisi came from behind?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: Yes, he came from behind and that is when I started opening the docket or file and when he started looking at the docket, Sibisi shot at him.  That is what we discussed.  I told him as soon as he looks at the docket he should shoot him.

CHAIRPERSON: He said Sibisi came from behind.  Did he come from behind you or from behind Lombo?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: Behind Lombo.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Then I am covered.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADVOCATE MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on).

MR WILLS: Just two quick points, thank you Mr Chair, Mr Chairperson.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS

MR WILLS: As I understand it Mr Lombo was shot in the back of the head by Sibisi.  Is that what you recall?

CHAIRPERSON: That does not accord with the post mortem.

MR WILLS: Well, sorry, I was a bit vague, Mr Chairperson, my understanding of the post mortem is the top of the neck.

CHAIRPERSON: If you look at page 79, the bullet passed forward, slightly downward ...

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: The bullet passed forward and slightly down through wound number one which was the wound on the lower lip, between the base of the skull and cervical one vertebrae, fractured cervical one vertebrae, lacerated the spinal cord and exited on wound number two, which is the wound in the right lower occiput.

MR WILLS: Yes, I withdraw that question, Mr Chairperson.  I am sorry.  Last question, Mr Motaung.  Dlamini and Sithole, they were waiting in the combi.  Is that correct?

SIPHO W MOTAUNG: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  No more re-examination.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS