Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-23

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: I do not know Kwedi Kwedi, I do not know Kwedi Kwedi.  I never took part in the interrogation of these people.

MR STANDER: Tell me, the day - I am know moving on to the next incident of Oupa Makubalo, at what time do you say they came back to Fountain Street with him?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: Sir, I did not go back to Fountain, it was time to go home.  I went to Belisera Park to drop Mr Prinsloo then I left, I went to the township.  I was knocking off, I was going home I did not go back to the office because that evening I was going to go back to work.  That is the reason I went to Mr Prinsloo to drop him at home so that I can get the car to use it that evening.

MR STANDER: In other words you never saw them bringing back to Fountains Street that evening.

MR STANDER: You were also not with them when picked them up?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: That is correct.

MR STANDER: But it is my instructions to put it to you that you were also one of the people who in fact went to pick him up?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: I did not remember that.  I am certain I am talking perfectly when I say I was not there when Makubalo was fetched.

MR STANDER: If you say you cannot remember that, are you uncertain or what do you mean?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: Sir, let me put it in Afrikaans.  I am positive I did not participate in the Makubalo incident.

MR STANDER: Did you see him at all afterwards, whether the next day or any day thereafter?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: Because I was always confined to my workplace I would not say I did not see him.  With regards to this incident, I do not remember whether I saw days thereafter.

MR STANDER: I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

ADV MEMANI: Mr Miningwa, what were you doing just before  Motsamai and others went to fetch Makubalo?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: If I remember well, I had the left the office, I was in the kitchen, that's where we drink tea.  You know after working we meet in the kitchen to have a cup of tea, we were standing in the kitchen just talking.

ADV MEMANI: And what had you been doing just before you went for tea?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: I was listening to the tapes.

ADV MEMANI: And you listen to tapes every day of your life in the office isn't it.

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: It was my duty.

ADV MEMANI: It was also usual that you should go - you had to come back to work at night isn't it?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: Sometimes, it was not every day.

ADV MEMANI: But it happened often?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: Yes that's correct.

ADV MEMANI: Now what makes you recall these things which form part of your routine so much today more than ten years after the incident?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: I think if you are committed to your work, if that is your daily routine, I used to do that in the mornings and in the evenings.  I would remember many incidents relating to that specific duty that I was doing.  Some might even slip my mind but most I will remember.

ADV MEMANI: You see, what surprises me is that on your version, nothing amiss happened about Oupa Makubalo that you know of and you had no interest in his arrest.

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: I did not have interest in Makubalo's arrest, he was not arrested alone.  I did not have interest because I was not working with them.  If I happened to work with them I would have had interest to listen to them, the reasons for them to be arrested, where they were, because I was not working with him I did not have interest.
	I heard from my colleagues what they did, that is the reason why I did not have interest to know about them.

ADV MEMANI: And Mr Makubalo told us that he was detained at Fountains more than once.

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And yet on this occasion which you had nothing to do with, you even recalled that it was just before four when he was arrested.

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: Sir, I remember well because I was in the kitchen when it was said that Makubalo would be fetched.

CHAIRPERSON: Who said this?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: I don't want to rely on somebody's evidence but I do not remember well who came and talked about Makubalo because after that I just saw people standing up and going out.  I do not remember personally who came and said that Makubalo must be fetched.

ADV MEMANI: Now I'm told that Makubalo was fetched just before four and that you were present.

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: No Sir, I was not present when Makubalo was fetched.

ADV MEMANI: And that when you returned with Makubalo to the police station it was well after four.

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: That is the reason I say to you it was the time to knock off because when they took different directions I got into the car with Mr Prinsloo to take him home.  Their return with Makubalo to the police station, I was not there, I did not go back to the office.

ADV MEMANI: Did you see any person actually leave the office to go and fetch Makubalo?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: Repeat your question Sir.

ADV MEMANI: Did you see any person actually leave the office to go and fetch Makubalo?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: Members were in the kitchen, they went out, I do not know who got into the car but I don't want to say we were almost in the kitchen, I do not remember who went out because they got into the offices and then they left.  I do not know among them who left to go and help about the fetching of Makubalo.

ADV MEMANI: And can you dispute that it is Mamome who in fact came and said that he had got information about the whereabouts of Makubalo?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: I would not dispute that, I said earlier that I don't want to rely on somebody else's evidence. I do not remember who came with that information that Makubalo is at a certain place and that he should be fetched, I do not remember who came out with that instruction.

ADV MEMANI: Now, did you not hear screams - if I may just ask,  you know I don't want to ask these questions if Mr Stander has asked them.  Now on that day you say you couldn't hear because you had you earphones on.  What time did you start working?

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should make it clear that you've gone to a different day now.   You're just saying on that day and you've been talking about the day Oupa was fetched.

ADV MEMANI: I'm indebted to His Lordship.  Now Mr Miningwa, I want us to go to the 6th April 1986.  That is the day when about 20 peoples were detained who had been attempting to skip the border.  You told us that you did not hear screams because you were wearing earphones, headphones isn't it?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And tell me, what were you listening at?

CHAIRPERSON: Tapes, as he explained.

ADV MEMANI: Well I meant what tapes were you listening at?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: These are round tapes, you put them into the machine and you listen and while listening you write.  You write what you think is important from the conversation you're listening.

ADV MEMANI: What were the tapes about?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: These were the trade union tapes.

ADV MEMANI: Now I'm sure then that if you had to write important things you'd have to switch the tape off and give yourself time to make notes at various intervals.

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: That is correct.  I have explained that if ever there was anything important I would stop the tape and write.  Now most of the time there is nothing that is that important so you have to listen as it is rotating, well this is very important, you stop and you write.  But most of the time it would be on your ears so and you are very careful so that you don't skip anything that is important to be written down.

ADV MEMANI: And I'm sure that you're entitled to a tea break and a lunch break as well?

PHIKANI PETRUS MININGWA: I told you.  I answered that I saw these children at the time that I went for tea, I explained that.