Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-05

MR P DU PLESSIS: Thank you.  I am referring to page 4, bundle D, where it is said that
"... in terms of the Emergency Regulations, he was detained from 28th of October 1985 to the 10th of November and again in 1986"?
	That is what Mr Williams says himself?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, but under which circumstances?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Sorry?  I am not going into that.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I am just saying you are trying to draw your own things here.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Under which circumstances?  He was a school pupil at the time?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Mr Alexander, I am not trying to attack you, do you understand?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, I know that.

MR P DU PLESSIS: I am not trying to do that.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I am just trying to give a bigger picture, because you are painting half the picture.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes, I am saying that apparently there was the impression in your, in the society of which you were a member, Athlone, which we heard from Gakkie, that you were an activist and he was at least under the impression that some of your members were involved in violence?  Do you agree with me?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is his assumption.

MR P DU PLESSIS: It was his assumption?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And like it was his assumption, you would agree with me, it could have been the impression of many other people of the same society?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I don't agree with that sir, because we had the support of the people of that society at the time.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes, you had the support, but there were obviously people like the person who is going to stand for parliament in the tricameral dispensation, who also agreed with Gakkie, if it was only him and Gakkie, I don't know.  do you know, there were other people supporting the government of the day?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Should have been.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.  So, you will not be able to deny that there were people who were referring to you people in your own terms, as activists, correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And associating you people with violence, correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And because, well, I am not saying you were involved with violence, but that is the impression which could have been formed by certain people in the community?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That was an impression formed by Gakkie, most probably for money, for the reasons of money.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Sir, are you denying that anyone else could have formed that impression, are you denying that?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I am not saying that.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes, exactly.  And even ill-meaning people, people who disagreed with your politics, could have gone to the police, giving them false information that you were involved in violence, do you agree with that?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: They could have, but they didn't.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But you were very ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It is a fact.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You say as a fact that no one went to the police linking your organisation, the Cape Youth Congress, or any other organisation ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Linking Kewtown Youth Movement with violence, never, we were never picked up for any acts of public violence, whatsoever.

MR P DU PLESSIS: But you were not attending a meeting, according to you, of the Cape Youth Congress, associated with the UDF?  Do you agree with me?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So sir, do you exclude the possibility that anyone could have gone to the police accusing you of violence and being involved with that?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I cannot exclude that, but Cayco was a vast organisation.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Because I must say, getting back to the point, that according to your statement sir, I find the following - let me just get to the point, paragraph 3 on page 220 of bundle B
"... shortly after the explosion, all the members of the Cape Youth Congress left."
	You went home, you left the place?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: We didn't go home.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Well, you left?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I took my car away and I came back there.  I didn't stay there for very long either.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes, you see the point is you don't even say that you moved your car, but we know why you moved your car?  You didn't want to be associated with the explosion?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct, precisely.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Because you were afraid that the police were going to connect you and your organisation with the explosion?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So obviously it stands to reason that the police must have had some reason even if it was only gossip, that you people were involved with violence?

GEORGE BIZOS: With respect, the evidence has been Mr Chairman, and we all know, that part of the dirty tricks campaign was to have "dekstories", putting the blame on other people.  The fact that the witness may have feared of such a "dekstorie", is one thing, but to say that that it is evidence that the people were connected, is a complete (indistinct), with respect.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Thank you.  I welcome the assistance of Mr Bizos, but the fact is that you were at least afraid that because of the dirty trick campaign by the police, you could have been linked, correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is a fact.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.  And just to conclude that point, you would obviously agree that it is quite possible that ill-meaning people of your community, supplied information which eventually got to the CCB, that you people were a bunch of gangsters involved in violence?  It is possible that that information could have gotten to the CCB, quite incorrectly as it now appears to be?  Do you agree?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It is possible.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.   Now ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: There wouldn't be any ill-meaning people within the community, we were well accepted within the community, we assisted the community all the time.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes, fine, except, obviously except, with the exception of Gakkie and similar people?  Correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: People you would describe as gangsters in turn?  You would describe Gakkie as a gangster?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr van Zyl also described it as that?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.  Mr Chairman, I am not going to state my opinion of him, it is irrelevant, but the fact is, I am asking the witness whether he was describing him as a gangster, I am not putting it in dispute.  Maybe the worst gangster we have seen.  Do you agree with me?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I answered it, yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And how many gangsters were in that community, sir?  How many?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Quite a number, but ...

MR P DU PLESSIS: Quite a number?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.   Enough said about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps, when we get to a convenient stage, we can take the lunch adjournment, Mr du Plessis.  Just finish, yes, I think and then we will continue.

MR LAX: Just put your button on, thank you.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Sorry, just getting to the last aspect.   I also find it very interesting sir, that Nazeema Mohammed makes a statement, bundle B, page 226, and I find her reaction to the bomb explosion very interesting, about at the bottom third of the page
"... I didn't see at that stage (let me read from the typed written page 13, bundle B) anything is wrong with the building, and I then immediately went to my Attorneys, hence I suffered no injuries."
	Not very elegantly put, but she rushed off to her Attorneys.  Do you know the reason for that?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Panic, fear?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Fear of the police, fear of being picked up and arrested?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is right.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is an assumption.  I cannot talk for her.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Sorry?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is an assumption,  I cannot talk for her.