Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-02

CHAIRPERSON: For students?  These were members of the Youth Organisation, so you decided although he might be working for a security company where he could be found, to shoot him, is that what you are telling us Mr Ngo?	It was your decision?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: This is not my own decision, we were supposed to detain him and the way we wanted to detain him was that he should be kidnapped and then he started to run away, then we decided to shoot so that we would be able to detain him.

ADV DE JAGER: And the next day he was in hospital, why didn't you arrest him then and detain him?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We didn't arrest him or detain him.

ADV DE JAGER: Why didn't you go to the hospital and arrest him?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We were going just to verify as whether he was admitted or as whether we shot him because it was dark, we didn't know as whether we shot him or not, so that is the reason why we went to the hospital.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, now you ascertained at the hospital that in fact he was wounded and he is at the hospital, wasn't it so?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is true.

ADV DE JAGER: Why didn't you arrest him and detain him there if you really wanted to arrest him?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The question was to kidnap him, so that we would be able to interrogate him, then he ran away.  So after he was wounded in that way, Mr Bokaba said we should leave him, so we left because he was my senior.  When he said we should leave him, we had to leave him.  If he could have said we should take him, we could have taken him.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go to a senior officer and say that this man that we were seeking to question, is now available at a hospital?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I don't understand the question, the Judge's question.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go to one of your senior officers and tell them that this man who you wanted for questioning, was now available at the hospital?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, I didn't.  I don't know as whether Hendrik went, but I didn't.  I was in Mamelodi and our senior officer was right in town, in Pretoria.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, may I ask a question arising out of the questions that have just been asked?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chairman pleases.  Now as between yourself and Hendrik, who was the person responsible for the operation?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Both of us shot.

ADV MEMANI: Now as between yourself and Hendrik, who was the senior officer?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is Hendrik.

ADV MEMANI: And is it correct that he would have been giving instructions to you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was working directly in the main office in Compol Building, I was in a sub-base in Mamelodi.  So many instructions are received from Captain Loots, I received them through Mr Bokaba.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you telling us now that when you say you received instructions from Captain Loots, in some occasions, at some times, they didn't come from him, they were instructions that Bokaba gave you?  Bokaba gave you and said they came from Loots, is that what you now say?
	You say on many occasions when you have received instructions from Captain Loots, you received them through Bokaba?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: In many cases we used to meet with him at Mamelodi police station.  We were putting up in one barracks in Mamelodi.  It happens that he should report in town, then I would go and report in Mamelodi police station.
	If he received the instructions from Captain Loots, he would tell me what we were supposed to do in Mamelodi.  In some other instances, we would receive the instructions directly from Captain Loots.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I propose to deal with the incident listed as 2.3.  We should have dealt with it when we were dealing with the incidents in Bloemfontein, it is the bombing of the house of Max Makhubelo.
	This incident is in bundle C, at page 12.  It is your page 5 if you don't have paginated papers.  Do you have the relevant paragraph Mr Ngo, it is where you say that on instructions of Colonel Coetzee, that time held the rank of Major, it is the fifth paragraph.	Will you please tell this Committee about this incident?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Where should I start?

ADV MEMANI: You have told us that it is common cause I suppose, that you were instructed by Colonel Coetzee, that you are going to say that you were instructed by Colonel Coetzee.
	Yes, now where did Colonel Coetzee give you these instructions and with whom did you go and what happened?  This is what I want you to deal with.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He would give those instructions at Fountain.  Do you mean in regard to Max Makhubelo or which paragraph do you want me to refer to?

ADV MEMANI: Tell this Committee what happened on the occasion when you say that you went to bomb the house of Max Makhubelo.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We received instructions from Colonel Coetzee, who then was the Major.  It was myself, Warrant Officer Tsoametsi, Sergeant Mamome, Constable Motsamai, Constable Mtyala, we went to Max Makhubelo's house in Rocklands.
	We came behind the house.  When we arrived there, Motsamai and Mamome attacked the house with the petrol bomb.  We returned running.

ADV MEMANI: Now, what have you discovered about the fact that the house which was attacked was the house of Max Makhubelo?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I knew that we, I don't understand that question correctly, I don't understand the question.

ADV MEMANI: Now, Mr Ngo, do you know anything about the bombing of the house of City Mzuzwana?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We arrived there and then attacked the house with a petrol bomb, then after that we explained, Motsamai said to me you were a student at that time, so the house which we attack is not City Mzuzwana's house, it is not Max Makhubelo's house, but it is the house of City Mzuzwana.  That is the explanation he gave me after the attack that the house we attacked is not Max Makhubelo's house, but it was Mzuzwana's house.  That is what he told me.
	But the time when we were attacking the house, I knew that it was Makhubelo's house.

ADV MEMANI: Did you know or did you think that it was Makhubelo's house?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I didn't know those houses, I didn't know those people and those were the people who knew him, they knew those areas.

ADV MEMANI: So your application in fact is with respect to the bombing of the house of City Mzuzwana and not Max Makhubelo?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: In terms of explanations after, yes.  He explained this thing after I already submitted my application.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you spell the surname of City?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, City is spelt as City and Mzuzwana is Mzuzwana.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you give it to us again?

ADV MEMANI: Mzuzwana.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it Sergeant Mamome who told you this?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, that is Motsamai.

CHAIRPERSON: Motsamai, sorry.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, then may paragraph 2.3 of the (indistinct) be amended so as to read that it is an application in respect of the bombing of the house of City Mzuzwana?

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know why you attacked the house, what did City do?  What was he?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was a member of UDF and RMC.

ADV MEMANI: What is RMC in full, do you know?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: There is one signature million which was done that people should sign for a petition for Mandela's release which was under RMC, which is Release Mandela Campaign.

ADV MEMANI: So he was involved in the one million signature campaign?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, he took part in the one million signature campaign.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, those are my questions.

CHAIRPERSON: So you have no other questions to ask him in chief?