Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-05

MR MACADAM: And at that stage, did you fill in an application form to join the police and go through the police training colleges or not?

WITNESS:   Yes, I completed the form.  Yes, I did everything.  I also went for a fitness test.  I was examined by a doctor and also enquiries made about my education, my qualification.  I had to submit my Standard 10 certificate;  fingerprints were taken to determine about my criminal records.  I also attested on Sunday(?).  It was on the 1st of July 1989.  I attested, I was sworn before Colonel Luthuli(?) who was in charge at that time and were taken to Ulundi Police College.  That's

MR MACADAM: /where

MR MACADAM: 1B where we started training on the 2nd of July and we completed on the 14th of December 1989.  That was after all the normal training the police have to go through.

MR MACADAM: [Break in recording] ... compare with the training that you received in 1986 at this strange camp?

WITNESS:   It was very different.  Firstly in the camp we didn't learn about criminal law.  However, at the college we did Criminal Law A, Criminal Law B, criminal procedure in evidence, police administration, first aid, musketry and physical training and I passed all things like roadblocks, searching, arresting and also the regulations which we worked, which we will have to follow and we were also told about our powers and rights.  One of the main differences was that at the police college, during musketry we were learning about South African firearms, legal firearms like R1, HMC, shotgun.  We learn more about different shotguns, 500 pump action and the Browning;  pistols like 9mm Baretta, 7,65mm, 38 and we also got training with regards to how to explode the teargas;  how to control riots.  We were doing the normal courses for police training.  There wasn't anything that was made or said to be secret.  There was no secret.  Even our visitors will come during the weekend to see us, bring us clothes.  Nothing was a secret to the community at large.  This looks so different, because in the previous camp everything was a secret.  As I have said that even our families, it was emphasised that we shouldn't tell them anything about the training at the camp.  At the police college everything was open and that is the difference.

MR MACADAM: I have no further questions, Mr Chairperson.

MR MACADAM: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MACADAM

MR MACADAM: /

MR MACADAM: MR LYSTER

MR MACADAM: 1B

MR LYSTER: Mr Wills, is there anything that you feel that you wish to say that you wish to lead your client on?

MR WILLS: No, there's nothing that I wish to lead my client on.  However, obviously I would like the opportunity to re-examine after the completion of cross-examination, should there be any such cross-examination.

MR LYSTER: Yes, thank you.  I just want to make some general remarks now on the issue of rebutting submissions or representations or cross-examination and I want to emphasise the remarks which I made in my brief opening address yesterday and for the record I will repeat those.   For logistical, financial and other reasons, this hearing is of extremely limited duration and accordingly the panel will not permit any evidence, submissions or cross-examination which amount to a repetition of versions which have already been put forward in other forums and of which cognisance has been taken by this Commission.  Accordingly the panel will not hesitate to exercise, to use its rights in terms of Section 34(2) of the Act within the boundaries of what is fair and equitable.
In other words we cannot allow counsel to traverse the evidence of witnesses in a manner that they might do in a criminal trial and evidence will be limited to challenging the version of the witness insofar as it conflicts with their clients' versions and I must repeat that we cannot have a repetition of versions which are already part of the record, of this hearing.  Counsel should put their clients' versions to the witness in general terms and the witness should be asked whether he agrees with that version and I would really like to ask counsel to exercise restraint in this regard.
 /It
1B It may be necessary now to take a brief adjournment so that you can decide amongst you as to those who wish to submit rebutting submissions, representations or cross-examination, in which order they should do it.

MR WILLS: (?)   Sorry, Mr Chairperson, if I could just intervene here.  I trust that if there is going to be cross-examination on the basis of other parties that are represented here, I trust that such evidence and the basis of that cross-examination will also be placed before the Commission and we'll be in a position to cross-examine those witnesses ourselves.

MR LYSTER: I think I'm going to adjourn briefly to allow counsel to decide in which order cross-examination, if any, should take place and we will deal as a panel with the issue which you have raised at the moment.  So it's now twenty past eleven.  We will re-adjourn here at quarter to twelve.  Thank you.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT
ON RESUMPTION

MR LYSTER: Take your seats, we are going to resume.  Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  I just want to place on record that my decision not to lead the present witness any further was based on a synopsis of the intention of the evidence leader in leading evidence and that is that at this stage of his examination relates to his training and that at a later stage the same witness will be recalled in relation to his activities subsequent to his training.

MR LYSTER: That's correct.  Have you decided in what
 /manner
1B manner this will be done and who is going to deal with the witness?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, yes, in the picking order I can go first.  I must just place before you a problem in that there may be an overlap.  I might be premature with some of the issues which I wish to raise, which aren't many, with the witness, because that would be intrinsically tied up with his committing the offences later, so that if I seem to be anticipating it, that's not the intention, Mr Chairman, but it may cut out cross-examination later.  Perhaps on that basis I could just put a few questions in clarification to the witness.  If you feel that it's going too wide, please feel free to stop me, Mr Chairman.
Hello, Mr Mkhize, my name is Louis Visser.  Can you see me?  I'm putting up my hand, this is where I am sitting.  Can you see me?

MR LYSTER: Sorry, may I just interrupt, Mr Visser.  Just for the record, just to place yourself on record, we were going to get a list from each person as to whom you represent.  Do we have a list?  Oh, it's right here.

MR VISSER: The list has been provided, Mr Chairman.  I will this to the witness, in fairness to him, so that he knows anyway.

MR VISSER: Mr Mkhize, I just want to tell you that I represent the ex-Minister of Law and Order, Mr Adriaan Vlok and certain generals of the South African Police, General Van der Merwe, Coetzee and others, just so that you know.  Would you mind if I asked you just a few questions to clarify a few issues, please.  I understand, Mr Mkhize, that you've been committed of various murders.  Is that correct?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's correct.

MR VISSER: /What

MR VISSER: 1B What I'd like to know is did you commit any of these murders on your own or did you act in concert with other people when you committed these murders?

WITNESS:   I did it myself.

YASMINE SOOKA: [... Break in recording ...] or evidence that is going to actually be led later.  At this specific point in time we have led evidence on the training that Mr Mkhize received and I think that it would be appropriate if the cross-examination or rebuttal is in fact confined to that particular issue.