Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1999-05-27

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Yes, it sometimes happened that he would bring some food along, because sometimes we would work the whole night. And yes, he would sometimes bring some food and we would also get donations from businessmen in the township because we were looking after the community.

MR MALAN: My question really relates to cash payments to the members. Did you ever receive cash from Bongani?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: No.

MR MALAN: Was Bongani ever employed that you know of, in this period?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I would not say. I don't know.

MR MALAN: And on the day when, after the monies had been counted, was nothing given to any of the participants? Not even R10 or R20 or R50 or R100 to everybody?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: No. That was not the aim. We were not supposed to benefit from the operation personally as members of the unit.

MR MALAN: You see, why I'm asking this, is in most of the other applications, we've had evidence from PAC units, task force members that part of what they repossessed was for their survival and living conditions and the keeping going of the unit. But here it seems nothing ever was paid or contributed to the expenses of the members of the unit. Is that your, is that how we are to understand you?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Truly speaking, I took an oath to the effect that I would not use the organisation to feather my personal aims. I took an oath to that effect.

MR MALAN: You also said that you, after the incident, you left the townships. You left the township.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Where did you go to then?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I went to my relatives in another place, not in the township.

MR MALAN: Yes, where to I ask, not who to? Where did your relatives live?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: In Newcastle. That is where I used to attend school.

MR MALAN: Did you leave a message to Bongani where you would be going? If he would be looking for you, or to anybody?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I had decided that I would look for him when the time comes, but I did not leave a specific message to say where Bongani will find me in case he wanted me. I had planned that I would look for him and find him. You see, I was scared so that if the police happened to come home, they would be told where I was and this would lead to my arrest.

MR MALAN: Where were you when you first heard that the police were looking for you?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I was at home.

MR MALAN: Sorry. If you say at home, is that at home in, on the East Rand, or at home then with your relatives? With your parents? Were you with your parents when you learnt that?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Yes, at home where I used to stay with my parents in the East Rand.

MR MALAN: Who told you?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: A girl, I think it could have been Trevor Masilo's sister, came to my parents' place and told me that the police had come looking for Trevor Masilo and they seemed very angry. And I then got to know that possibly they now know about the operation that we did. Then I fled.

MR MALAN: You didn't go round to Bongani's house to ask him for instructions?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I did not often go to his place. We usually met at a meeting point, that is where we usually met him.

MR MALAN: How did you meet at a meeting point without some communication? I mean, surely you must have messages, either from you to his place, or from him to your place in order for you to meet? My question is, you did not try to make contact with Bongani in order to take instructions when you learnt the police were looking for you.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: It is just as I have explained that Bongani used to phone me to contact me, but I did not phone him. So, in most instances, he would phone me and I knew the meeting point.

MR MALAN: Where did he phone you when he set up appointments?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: He would phone me at home and indicate where we were going to meet and at what time, etc.

MR MALAN: And you never made contact with him. All contact was initiated by Bongani. Is that what you're telling me?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: In most instances, yes, that's how it was, because he did not have, I am saying he did not have a stable place of residence, not even a phone number. He stayed at different places.

MR MALAN: How often did he make contact with you?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I have explained that I got to know him in 1987 when I was introduced to him and he, I met him again in 1989 when I underwent training. And we also met at the time of the operation and right up to the time when we lost contact after the operation.

MR MALAN: Did you not meet him between 1989 and the time when he phoned you to go on this operation?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Yes, that is correct. I would say from 1987 right up to 1989 I did not see him. I saw him last when I was introduced to him and he disappeared. I don't know where he went to, right up until he came back in 1989.

MR MALAN: My question relates to the next period. From 1989 to the 20th of September 1991, how often did you see Bongani then?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I would see him often times, because I have explained that we used to work together as a unit, especially after 1990. That's when we were working together as a unit protecting the community.

MR MALAN: Yes, that working together as a unit, if I understand it correctly, that was patrolling the township?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: That is correct.

MR MALAN: There was no other work as a unit, it was only patrolling the township.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Yes.

MR MALAN: Did you patrol it nightly, daily? When did you patrol the township?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: We used to patrol in, or at night. But it sometimes happened that the situation would be so tense such that we would be required to patrol during the day. Because the fighting would take place during the day as well. That would depend on the circumstances and we would get the directives from him as to whether we are patrolling in the day or not.

MR MALAN: Did this, these patrols, were they taking place daily? Or then nightly, every day or every night? Or did he simply call on you once a month, once in two months, once in six months? How often did you patrol the streets?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: We used to patrol at night, almost daily.

MR MALAN: And I understand you correctly, that there was also an SDU operating?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Yes.

MR MALAN: Did you have any relationship with them? Any understanding with this SDU?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Yes, because we were doing a similar thing. We would help one another where necessary because we were all protecting the community.

MR MALAN: How did you help one another?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Like passing on information about the attackers as to which route they were going to take, etc.

MR MALAN: Which attackers are you talking about?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Mostly, the people that we were fighting against were people from the hostels. These are the people who used to come to attack us. They were IFP aligned.

MR MALAN: Now, who were with you patrolling the streets? Who were the other members doing these patrols?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Our commander, Bongani Moyo, Edwin Simelane, Trevor Masilo, Freddie Makwe, Clive Majola and myself.

MR MALAN: These were the members that patrolled nightly?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Did they work during the day?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Some were working, yes, during the day. For example, Edwin Simelane, even though he was working at home because they had a taxi business.

MR MALAN: Now, it appears from this that you saw Bongani Moyo at least once a day, because you were patrolling together. Is that correct?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And that happened all through, all through this period. When did it cease? When did you stop these patrols?