Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-12

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We've lost quite a lot of time today, but I believe I've been informed that the time hasn't been wasted, parties have been talking to each other and preparing various statements.  We are at the situation now where Mrs Burton has made a statement, there were certain objections made to it by the applicants, Mr McBride and Mr Ismail and in the interim period from when we adjourned until now we, the Committee, have that opportunity from time to time to speak with all the representatives together and a request was made by Messrs Dehal and Berger to be able to submit a statement, an unsworn statement, in response to the statement of Mrs Burton.  This is an unusual step but we are also in an unusual situation here, first time that something like this has occurred and we as a Panel decided that it would be appropriate for such statements to be made.  Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Ismail has prepared a typed statement I believe, everyone including members of the Committee have copies of the statement and if that is so I would ask Mr Ismail to read his statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ismail, you may proceed.

MR ISMAIL READS STATEMENT: Mr Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was brought into being by the ANC led government.  It is called upon to discover the truth about our past and to facilitate reconciliation.  It is an unique process in the world.  More unique because for the first time we have a situation where the oppressed talk about reconciliation rather than calling for Nuremberg Trials.  The history of the struggle is well-documented.  The ANC has made extensive submissions to the TRC on this.  Ms Burton has sought to vilify the entire basis of the struggle for freedom.  We reject her charges of terrorist operatives and terrorist army with contempt.  The policies of the ANC over decades of armed struggle ensured that our country did not descend into a racial war.
	Two weeks ago, we reminded the Committee of blacks stretching out the hand of friendship to whites with whites generally spurning the gesture.  Every day of this hearing has been spent with victims in an attempt to bring about reconciliation.  Reconciliation, however, is not a one way process and Ms Burton's remarks show that reconciliation is a road little travelled.  Ms Burton seems to forget that the majority of victims of apartheid were blacks and civilians, whether in Sharpeville, Langa or Uitenhage, black civilians died.  Nobody batted an eyelid because they were black.  The truth is the blacks have not been seen as people.  Nothing is said about the loss of black lives.  
	In 1976 when the so-called well-trained and well-armed police and soldiers of the apartheid regime went into the townships they killed innocent children in Soweto and other parts of the country.  When they killed those children they were protecting Afrikaans and Afrikanerdom and white privilege as fascists.  Those Security Forces consisted largely of 17 and 18 year old white conscripts, that the white society gave to the system to defend white power and privilege.  We recognised the rights of victims to oppose applications for amnesty and to speak their minds.  However, the statement made by Ms Burton this morning is inadmissible and unacceptable and against the spirit of this process.  We ask the Honourable Committee to make a ruling to this effect.  The ANC and the applicants reserve their right to institute legal proceedings in as far as Ms Burton's statement goes outside and beyond the law.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Dehal?

MR DEHAL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Sorry, on the same terms, Mr McBride has prepared a statement that he wishes to read and I believe copies have been handed to all the members present.

MR MCBRIDE READS STATEMENT: Thank you Sir, Mr Chairperson and Members of the Committee.  Firstly, in spite of Mrs Burton's rantings and ravings which she has a right to, I still want to continue to participate in this reconciliation process.  However, she will not be able to deny that there have been millions of victims as a result of the conflict of the past.  The cause of this conflict was apartheid which benefited white people like Mrs Burton at the expense my subjugation.  I fought against a subjugation with utmost dedication and for this I am proud.  No amount of rantings and ravings will make me change my belief that it was correct to fight against a crime against humanity.  Mrs Burton has no copyright on being a victim or of having suffering during the conflict of the past.
	It is no exaggeration that millions have suffered or died on the subcontinent as a result of apartheid trying to perpetuate itself.  Apartheid as a system attacked black South Africans as a whole.  In fact it attacked them because they were black.  All the applicants in this hearing are victims of the apartheid system. 
	Mrs Burton has referred to newspaper reports of me.  In the two incidents she mentions I have been completely exonerated.  Furthermore, these two incidents have nothing to do with this hearing and are irrelevant.  Mrs Burton begins her statement by thanking the Truth Commission.  I wish to remind her that it is the same ANC that she refers to as terrorists that drove the process which culminated in the establishment of this Truth Commission.  Ironically, I as a legislator of the new democratic government voted for the establishment of this Act which gave birth to the Truth Commission.  This Act ultimately gave rise to this forum in this hearing for Mrs Burton.  She has now abused this opportunity.  I trust that her comments will not be taken into account in deciding my amnesty application.  I nevertheless reiterate that I'm in favour of reconciliation and I am willing to actively contribute towards achieving this.  My rights arising from Mrs Burton's statement remain reserved.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: There's just one point which I must make reference to before we adjourn.  Mr Berger raised or questioned the right of the victim to make an unsworn statement such as the statement made by Mrs Burton.  Our view as a Panel is that the Act does not exclude the right of the victim to make an unsworn statement.  Mr Berger referred us to Section 19.4 of the Act which states inter alia that the victim shall have the right to testify at a hearing and that testify implies giving evidence.  However, it has been practise from the very start of these procedure for victims to make statements, unsworn statements at hearings and this has happened on many, many occasions at many other hearings and also our view is that Section 19.4 does not although it only refers to a victim testifying does not exclude the lesser right to make an unsworn statement particularly when one takes into account the provisions of Section 11 of the Act, that's the Truth and Reconciliation Act, so-called Truth and Reconciliation Act which provides inter alia that victims shall be given the right to present his or her views and submissions.  So we are satisfied that the giving of unsworn statements is not either illegal or improper.