Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-12-02

CHAIRPERSON: Where is that child now?

FAITH SEFATSANE: He is staying with me in Extension 2.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

FAITH SEFATSANE: He is studying.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he the nearest dependant of the deceased?

FAITH SEFATSANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the address?

FAITH SEFATSANE: 612, Extension 2.

CHAIRPERSON: Where would that be?

FAITH SEFATSANE: Thokoza.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a postal number?

FAITH SEFATSANE: We use 612, Extension 2, Thokoza.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, but under the town's name normally one needs to put a code.

FAITH SEFATSANE: 1421.

CHAIRPERSON: 1421.  And what is this child's name?

FAITH SEFATSANE: Gugu Patience Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you spell it please?

FAITH SEFATSANE: G-U-G-U, Gugu.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja?

FAITH SEFATSANE: Patience.

CHAIRPERSON: As in hospital patient, like that patient?

FAITH SEFATSANE: Patience.

CHAIRPERSON: Patience?

FAITH SEFATSANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Zulu you say?  I assume it's a female?

FAITH SEFATSANE: Yes, Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Now Ms Sefatsane, were you close to this uncle of yours?

FAITH SEFATSANE: Yes, I was very close.

CHAIRPERSON: And did it effect you emotionally when he was killed?

FAITH SEFATSANE: Yes, it did.

CHAIRPERSON: Has your feelings and emotions improved with time?

FAITH SEFATSANE: I wasn't well until I heard these people who were talking about it in the TRC, but now I'm sad because I've tried to forget about it and now it looks like the TRC is opening the wounds.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it the first time you heard what happened to your uncle, during this hearing?

FAITH SEFATSANE: Yes, it's my first time.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you object to the people coming to talk to you and make peace with you about what happened?

FAITH SEFATSANE: No, I won't object, the only thing I will ask about is that I will ask them to tell the truth about my uncle because I don't think what they've said here was true about him.
	I still have other witnesses who also suffered from this ordeal, people who used to stay with my uncle.  They didn't have time to come and testify here because they didn't get the forms to fill.  We only heard about this on Sunday night.  George came and told us that we should come here and he promised that he was going to bring the forms on Thursday but he didn't, he only came and told us to come here.  Another man as well said he wished to come here to testify because what happened to my uncle wasn't fair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well if all these many people were going to come and testify about your uncle, it would just, and I don't want to sound insensitive, but we prefer to hear the nearest relative that could testify, tell us how it affected the family.
 	Now it is unfortunate that your uncle had to die the way he did during what I think was a tragic war.  I understand that matters have calmed down somewhat and peace has been restored to the area.  How do you feel about the restoration of the peace?

FAITH SEFATSANE: Yes, there is peace in Thokoza and I'm staying in my uncle's house even though it had been vandalised.  I'm staying there as it is.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not for me to say that you must forget this whole incident and to be indifferent to the emotions that the death of your uncle has set in motion.  I can only hope that those responsible for killing your uncle would have the courage to come and see you and his child, make peace with the two of you and themselves, and one can hope that you with time could see your way clear to live with those people as well, understanding that whatever happened rightfully or wrongfully, occurred during a period that one can only describe as tragic in this country.   Thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

MR SAMUELS COMMITTEE: Mr Chairperson, I think one point of clarity, the postal code for Thokoza, I've been told is 1426.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your lot, Mr Samuels?

MR SAMUELS: May I get some guidance from the Chair?  I don't want to delay the process.  I haven't put these specific facts to Mr Chisoma, he's not present and as has been agreed ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well if necessary ...(inaudible)

MR SAMUELS: I'll handwrite ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) you can inform us ...(inaudible).

MR SAMUELS: Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We will be guided by your judgement there.

MR SAMUELS: Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You have the evidence now.  I don't know if you regard it as concrete or what.  Is that your lot?  I understand there are three applicants in terms of the documents, that have not testified and are represented by you.  What is the position about those?

MR SAMUELS: There are one of two options, if we do find them in the next day or two, we will bring an application to the other TRC hearing to ask whether our matters can also be included on their list.  If that fails and if we find our clients, that is firstly, I will make an application for this hearing to reconvene at some future date.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask you a question, I mean bending over backwards is one thing but you're doing a flick-flack.  Have you any knowledge or any explanation as to their absence?

MR SAMUELS: Nothing, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: You haven't seen them?

MR SAMUELS: You are talking about the prisoners?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if they are ...(intervention)

MR SAMUELS: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: I can't hear.

MR SAMUELS: The three persons mentioned on the list?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SAMUELS: Yes, those are the prisoners.  No, I haven't spoken with them myself, I haven't consulted with them and only based on the paperwork and the facts disclosed there, was why I had included them on the list.  There are events that they have stated in those papers ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible).  I don't know why you're going to play Missing Persons Bureau.  If they haven't made contact with you by the 1st of February, 15th of January next year, what are you going to do then?

MR SAMUELS: I will have those matters adjourned sine die and the applicants, each person can take up their own case.  I cannot continue to hold a brief on a matter ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well what I'm prepared to do is then remove it from this role.

MR SAMUELS: Very well, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you or your attorney will have to take it up with Cape Town head office.

MR SAMUELS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: To have it enrolled elsewhere.  I was very tempted to strike it off the roll but it crossed my mind that they may not have received notice, I don't know.  I'm confident that a notice did go out but ...(intervention)

MR SAMUELS: It's hard to tell.

CHAIRPERSON: But with our experience with the prisons we know that things like that do happen, but somehow it must be left in your hands to determine that cutoff date ...(intervention)

MR SAMUELS: Yes, and write a letter to the TRC, officially from ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Whatever the decision is.

MR SAMUELS: Yes, yes, I will take that responsibility.

CHAIRPERSON: The re-enrolment of those matters is not a question of right, it is a request that can be granted by ...(intervention)

MR SAMUELS: I'll have to move an application.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR SAMUELS: Yes.  Other than that, the matters that have been heard be disposed with, the matters in chambers, I had a list, I think you have a copy.  I will update that list and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The most important person to have that list is Ms Patel.

MR SAMUELS: Okay, then we will discuss with each other and all other matters have been finalised for this hearing as far as my clients are concerned.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you only for record purposes give the names of the three persons?

MR SAMUELS: Sure.

ADV DE JAGER: And refer us to the volume and the pages.

MR SAMUELS: Sure.  The first one is 2148/96.

MS PATEL: It's in bundle three, page 105 to 122.

MR SAMUELS: Thank you.  3444/96: Myizola Khanya, page 123 to 144.