Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-20

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes I can see that.

MR PRETORIUS: Which ANC security personnel were you referring to there?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I mean the ANC guards which were guarding the building at that sector.

MR PRETORIUS: Would that be the ANC guards on the corner of King George and Plein Street?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: Now your legal advisers now would most probably have explained to you that the ballistic evidence is to the effect that there could no evidence be found of any shots being fired in the direction of King George and Plein Street.  Are you aware of that?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes I'm aware of that.

MR PRETORIUS: Now Mr Mangena had these shots not been fired at all, that is in other words there were no shots from the crowd directed towards King George and Plein Street.  Why did you start firing?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: As I've said that things were going very fast and then it was not easy for one maybe to have that or maybe to see whether this shot is it coming to this direction or is it going whatever direction, it was even difficult to notice a bullet when it comes out from the gun but now the sound, this might be the shots which were being fired by our personnel maybe or wherever they were coming from but now the impression that I got at that particular time was that this shots are coming from those marchers.

MR PRETORIUS: The point is Mr Mangena, if there weren't in fact shots fired from the marchers, why did you fire?

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't he answered that?  He fired because shots were fired, he couldn't see where they were being fired from.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman the position is that in, as was pointed out correctly, he said that there were shots fired in the direction of Shell House and the ANC security personnel.  It now became clear that there were no such shots fired, at least in the direction that he indicated.  I'm asking him in view of that, why was it necessary to fire.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Pretorius I think you know, without belabouring the point, his response has been a very short one.  His perception at the time was that his life was in danger.  Do you think you can take it further than that?  I don't think so.

MR PRETORIUS: Chair, one more question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: Besides the shots that were fired or you perceived to be fired at you, what else convinced you that your life was in danger?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Besides those shots, these people were coming nearer and closer to the position that I occupied so that in itself constituted the idea that these people are coming to attack us.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Mangena, did I understand you correctly that you decided on your own to stop firing, that is now after you started shooting at the crowd?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Can you repeat that?

MR PRETORIUS: After you started firing at the crowd, you decided to cease fire out of your own, it wasn't if you heard an order or anything else, you yourself decided to cease firing.  Is that correct?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: After you stopped firing, did you hear any further shots?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: No I didn't hear any further shots.

MR PRETORIUS: Now if you look at page 3380 of the inquest record ... (intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: What page again Mr Pretorius?

MR PRETORIUS: 3-3-8-0, Sorry.  You testified that after you started firing at the crowd you saw them, or some of them falling down.  That appears from line 6 onwards.  It reads:  "You see 3, 4 people falling down, you see people falling down after you started firing shots?", "Yes".

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question?

MR PRETORIUS: I just wanted the witness, I just want to make sure that he saw that passage Mr Chairman then I'll phrase the question for him.

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes I see that paragraph.

MR PRETORIUS: After the people fell down, what did the rest of the crowd do?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: After the people fall down I cannot say about the rest of the crowd because some were turning back, some were retreating so others maybe they might have hidden themself, there were some slabs there so really to say exactly what happened to the rest of the others, I don't know.

MR PRETORIUS: At that stage you and the other guards, did you still continue firing?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I cannot remember very well whether the firing continued but on my part I stopped firing and from there I went back inside the building.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Mangena in your evidence in chief you testified that when you stopped firing there was nobody left standing there in King George and De Villiers Street in that area, people were lying down so I put it to you that you must have continued firing from the point that they started falling down onwards until there were nobody left standing to fire at.  Do you agree with that?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes I think I can agree with that.

MR PRETORIUS: Now Mr Mangena can you recall that during your evidence at the inquest some video material was shown to you?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: I just want to confirm the following that you saw on that video material the people lying on the ground in front of the chemist with a lot of traditional weapons around them.  Do you recall that?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes I recall that.

MR PRETORIUS: Was the crowd in that position when the firing started?

CHAIRPERSON: What is that question, I don't understand, sorry.

MR PRETORIUS: Was the crowd in that position, there were the people lie down at the pharmacy, was that where the front part of the crowd was when the firing from the guards started?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: No I cannot recall clearly as to where were they exactly when the firing started.

MR PRETORIUS: If the committee could just bear with me one second?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Mangena after the firing ceased did you leave the scene and didn't look at what happened thereafter, that's the scene in King George Street, more in particular it is the corner of King George and De Villiers Street, was it still visible to you or after you left did you not attend to that corner at all again?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Can you just repeat that question?

CHAIRPERSON: After the firing ceased - what was the question?

MR PRETORIUS: Did he leave the scene or remain in a position where the corner of King George and De Villiers Street was still visible to him?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: After the fire has ceased I went inside of the building.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Mangena I put it to you that the objectors for whom I act will, if necessary, testify that there was no attack
on Shell House on that day and that they were fired upon by the guards of Shell House totally unjustifiably and unnecessarily.  That also is the same position with regard to those objectors represented by Dr Van Wyk.  Just place it on record, do you want to react on that?

MR LAX: Are you shaking your head, do you mean no.  Just say no.

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: No.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRETORIUS

MR VAN WYK: Sir you were issued with a firearm on that day.  Is that correct?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That's correct.

MR VAN WYK: By Mr Kruser, is that correct?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I don't quite remember if whether it was Mr Kruser or it was - I don't know what was, whether it was his secretary but there was a person who was in charge of issuing out weapons.

MR VAN WYK: I want to show you a document, Mr Chairman it will be in bundle B and then on page 261 of that bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have that, page 261?