Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: Did the Crisis Committee ever take this up with Mrs Madikizela Mandela, that since she was supposed to have disbanded her club by that stage or was your perception that the club had been disbanded - a fallacious suggestion on the part of Mrs Madikizela Mandela?

UNKNOWN: No, I don't think we took up as a Crisis Committee because they attended a funeral.

FRANK CHIKANE: I just say that I really never worked on the basis that the club existed or didn't exit because those young people appeared a number of times, even during the time when the leaders got released they were in those T-shirts so I would not have even raised the question because I didn't actually work on that basis.

MR VALLY: Moving away from the whole notion of her soccer club that played regular matches etc., ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: How final is your final?

MR VALLY: I have two further things to state.
 We know that this wasn't your normal everyday soccer club, the track suits were there with that name on it but in terms a group of young men with yellow track suits with green lettering, travelling around in a group and usually around Mrs Madikizela Mandela, how long - how many months, how many years after she stated that the group of men or the soccer club had been disbanded?  
 Did you people still note that she was moving around with them - you mentioned up to the point when the leaders were released, was this happening up to that period and can you just give us an indication of the year and the month?

FRANK CHIKANE: I wouldn't remember because as I'm saying, I wasn't timing when the club was disbanded really.  The issue is, we advised that the young people be removed from the place and the advice was not taken and that was it, so we passed it over.  We couldn't have gone back to say: "Is the club still existing" etc.

MR VALLY: Very finally, just for the record Archbishop.
 Mr Jerry Richardson the so-called coach of the soccer club who is here, he's not wearing the track suit from what I could see, he is wearing prison greens. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't usually do it but maybe you do have a final thing that you might want to say, you haven't -  I mustn't temp you.

FRANK CHIKANE: Chairperson and the Commission, I was going to ask for this opportunity at the end when all the questions have been asked.  I would like to say that it's very difficult - how many years later, 7 or 8 years later, to actually appreciate the conditions under which people worked at that time.
 Now that we have normalised, it makes it very difficult to refer backwards into the particular conditions under which we were working.  This Committee - I still have to make sure about what's happening around me.  Chairperson, this collective - I would like to call it a collective, was brought in into this situation by myself and I believed that they were going to assist in dealing with problem we're face with and I would like to say now because I have not said it before, that I thank them for having been co-operative to do that.  
 It was a responsibility that would not be envied by anybody to do that and that we did whatever we could do at that stage to save lives, to avoid further lives being lost and there were difficulties in doing that.  We talked to as many leaders as you could find in dealing with these issues and that was the best that we could do at that particular moment.  
 I would like to repeat once more again that we do express our condolences to the families which have been involved especially because there's been some feeling that the Committee has information it doesn't have and we could give you as much as we could give you to assist you in whichever way that would assist the Commission to execute it's responsibilities and we wish you luck in that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  As I said at the beginning, we are deeply grateful to you and of course we've taken more time than we thought but it has been worthwhile and we are enormously grateful.  You are free now to stand down.

CHAIRPERSON: We call Doctor Motlana.  Doctor Motlana, the Reverend Otto Mbangula and Father Mkhatsa?  Order please, order, order!  Please can we settle, we are running a bit late and we crave your co-operation.
 Dear friends, we are enormously grateful to you and in anticipation we also say thank you - it is not in anticipation, it is after the fact because you should probably been here yesterday and you've had to sit around waiting.  We are deeply grateful that you have made the time available to assist this Commission which is set up for the good of the country and we also want to pay tribute to the roles that you played in the difficult times, part of which are the subject of our concern. ...[inaudible]   I don't know - I presume you are going to speak in English?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand and have the oath administered or an affirmation taken.

YASMINE SOOKA: Could I ask you one by one to give the Commission your full names please?  Father?

TATO MOTLANA: Tato Motlana.

YASMINE SOOKA: Please raise your right hand.

TATO MOTLANA: (sworn states)

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you, you may be seated.

DR BORAINE: Chairperson, just before we start, we have a statement before us from Doctor Tato Motlana but we have no statements from the other two witnesses, do such statements exist?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, they do Chair, they were just given to me about an hour ago.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just identify yourself please.

MR MADLOPA: Thank you Chairperson, the name is Madlopa from a group of attorneys representing Doctor Motlana.

CHAIRPERSON: The question about statements ...[inaudible] Please Piers?

MR PIGOU: Thanks, just for your interest, they're very brief statements, they're only one page each and we're not really going to be referring to them very much.  Thank you, I'd like to start by asking Doctor Motlana some questions and then I'll move on to some questions for Reverend Mbangula and Father Mkhatsa.

COUNSEL: Chairperson, before we proceed, is it possible that the statements can be read into the record or are you going to take it for granted that the record will reflect the statements?

MR VALLY: We apologise Mr Chairperson, Doctor Motlana is represented by an attorney but I'm not sure if the other gentlemen are, he may want to lead Doctor Motlana initially.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR VALLY: Doctor Motlana is represented by an attorney, I'm not sure if the Deputy Minister is or Reverend Mbangula but I think Doctor Motlana's attorney would like to lead him initially.

CHAIRPERSON: Please do that.

MR MADLOPA: Thank you Chair, the name is Madlopa by the way Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MADLOPA: The name is Madlopa.

CHAIRPERSON: Madlopa.

MR MADLOPA: That is correct Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MADLOPA: Thank you for this opportunity Chairperson and as it has been explained, Doctor Motlana has in fact prepared a brief statement relating to the invitation that he has received in terms of Section 29 of the Act, that is Act 34 of 1995 and for the record I would appreciate it if Doctor Motlana were to in fact read into the record his statement as his submission.