Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-14

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I will proceed with the cross-examination.
	Mr Masithulela you testified that as far as your knowledge goes there was a "trek pass" ...(intervention)

JOHN MASITHULELA: Sorry are you speaking above the mike, I can't hear clearly.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Pardon, I will repeat the question.  You testified that as far as your knowledge goes there was a "trek pass" issued for the deceased.  What I want to know is was that also the situation for Petrus, his brother?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Mr Petrus Mahvunga wasn't issued with a "trek pass".

MR VAN RENSBURG: Just repeat that, was not?  I didn't hear, just repeat your answer please.

CHAIRPERSON: As far as he knows ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: As far as he is concerned he was not issued with a "trek pass".

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Now if Petrus was not issued with a "trek pass" why did you participate in trying to burn down his house?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Well I was involved in the arson case based on the fact that he was suspected of the act.

MR VAN RENSBURG: The act?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes the act of witchcraft.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I was under the impression from the evidence led by the previous witnesses that they tried everything in their power, they went through all the channels, got the police, got the "trek passer" to persuade the deceased ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Excuse me I do have a technical problem.
PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONE

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes it's true.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Interpreter are you okay now?

INTERPRETER: It's not me with the technical problem, I seem to be okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay whatever is the technical problem sorted out?

INTERPRETER: It seems so yes, thank you.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  From the previous witnesses I got the impression that they went a long way, and they were very patient to execute all possible measures to persuade the deceased to leave the area.  They got a "trek pass" for him; they went to the police, they went to the chief...(tape ends)

JOHN MASITHULELA: It was not the same as with Mr Petrus.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Then you've got to explain to me what was the difference between these two cases?  Why would the one be expected as a witch and all the procedures according to your other colleagues were followed, but in his instance it was not followed, what was the difference?

JOHN MASITHULELA: The difference was on the fact that Petrus Mahvunga had his house burnt down and he was under pressure and he left Mahvunga Village.  The deceased could not leave automatically or voluntarily.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes I'm talking up to the situation where before his house was burnt, because we accept that when his house was burnt he fled.  But before that, why was there a difference.  Why was his position handled differently?  I'm referring to Petrus.

JOHN MASITHULELA: The difference was that Petrus Mahvunga was not really in dispute with the political activities in Mahvunga Village.
	With regard to the deceased he was really disputing that he didn't like that to happen.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now if Petrus was not disputing that why did you want to evict him?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Well when I say he disputed I'm saying he never obstructed us in any way.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes we've heard you saying that.  The question is why did you still evict him or want to evict him?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Well Petrus, well it was necessary for him to be evicted because he was suspected of witchcraft.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the only reason?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes, with regard to Petrus Mahvunga.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Did you at the time have evidence that Petrus, specifically, used his powers as a witch to support the system?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Well I personally don't have evidence, but what I know is that with regard to the then situation when the Venda government was still in control of the - everybody was saying the traditional healers and witches were in co-operation so that the government should not really be targeted or ended.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes but we are talking about Petrus now.  You confirmed that you had no such specific information regarding Petrus.

CHAIRPERSON: What, what specific information?

MR VAN RENSBURG: That he specifically used his powers to uphold the system.

CHAIRPERSON: I think he's already testified that in both cases he did not have any specific knowledge but believed that witches were doing that, and that's as far as he could link both deceased and Petrus to the government, sustaining the government's status quo.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes perhaps I may have missed that point regarding Petrus.  Thank you Mr Chairman.  I will continue.
	You say that you have information for us about this Mavangwe Youth Congress.  Can you for instance tell us who the chairman was?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes I can.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Please do.

JOHN MASITHULELA: The chairperson was Mr Muladi Ntsundeni.  The other person I heard of as being treasurer was Nthangeni Calvin Phungo.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I see.  And this chairman, let's talk about the chairman first, Muladi Ntsundeni.  Was he present on the 6th of April when the deceased was murdered?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Well I will ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That can be a dangerous question, because he may implicate that person.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes I do understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to know what the purpose of your question is.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Well the purpose of my question Mr Chairman also relates of course to the question of full disclosure.  I believe that it is obviously one of the functions of this hearing that persons who did not make application for amnesty should be identified through this process.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, that's not one of our jobs.  If it so happens so be it, but we are not here to make that enquiry.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Well in that instance I will not press the situation further.  If the Chairman will just allow me to get an answer to this question, if he was present.  I think it is necessary to know.  I think the witness already testified that he was present.  Can I just confirm that?
	Can you just say if he was present or not?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes I was present.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Not you, the leader that you have referred to, the Chairman, was he present on the 6th of April?

JOHN MASITHULELA: I can't tell whether he was there or not because there were a lot of people.  One could not really identify particular people.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you.  I have no further questions for this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS

MS PATEL: Thank you Chairperson.  Perhaps just to clear my confusion as to the evidence you've led about Petrus, my understanding is that this applicant was convicted of the public violence case in respect of Edward Mahvunga, not in respect of Petrus Mahvunga and that in fact is an incident that took place on the 28th of February as well.
	Perhaps before I pose any questions to the applicant Mr Ndou can clear up ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Sorry I again have that particular problem.  Will the technicians come to my assistance please.  Carry on Ma'am.

MS PATEL: If you refer to page 190 of the judgement ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You are quite right.

MS PATEL: He says Count 2, the alternative to count 2.