Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-05

MR B WILLIAMS: Did you at any stage meet with the policeman who was investigating the deaths of these seven men?

JIMMY MBANE: No I did not.

MR B WILLIAMS: As a matter of interest do you know who that policeman was or don't you know that either?

JIMMY MBANE: I don't even know the policeman.

MR B WILLIAMS: Lastly, I want to ask you about the grenades which you had been supplied according to you by Bellingan and Liebenberg.  Do you remember what kind of grenades they were that had been supplied?

JIMMY MBANE: It was offensive type of grenade.  I only know the term offensive.

MR B WILLIAMS: Do you not know the distinction between various makes of grenades or their country of origin?

JIMMY MBANE: It was a South African made one, I looked at them.

MR B WILLIAMS: Do you know what an RGD5 grenade looks like?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes I know.

MR B WILLIAMS: Were those the grenades that you had?

JIMMY MBANE: They were called offensive.

MR B WILLIAMS: Did you have RGD5 grenades on that particular day?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes we had them.

MR B WILLIAMS: You mentioned that at some stage you had a .38 special revolver, am I correct?

JIMMY MBANE: Can you please repeat the question, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: You mentioned that at some stage, when you came down to Cape Town you had a .38 special revolver.  Do you remember that?

JIMMY MBANE: It was a .38.  It was mine, a .38.

MR B WILLIAMS: My apologies is that a pistol?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes it is a pistol.

MR B WILLIAMS: One of the deceased on the scene was found with a revolver.  Do you know where that revolver came from?

JIMMY MBANE: There were two revolvers that were found on the scene.  I don't know where did Rasta got them.  I also put them together with the other arms.

MR B WILLIAMS: Just a final question, Mr Mbane, about the reason for you being so evasive regarding your residence in Cape Town and your residence where you normally reside, can you explain to the Committee why you are so evasive about revealing this information?

JIMMY MBANE: I am not under witness protection programme, anything can happen to me especially if the people know where I stay, I can just disappear any day.  I can just disappear any day.  That is what I'm scared of.

MR B WILLIAMS: Mr Mbane, from which people are you suggesting this threat emanates?

JIMMY MBANE: I'm going to say to you briefly, I used to do this type of job.  Bellingan is not arrested, Bellingan is free.  If he can know where I stay here in Cape Town, anything can happen, because I know him very well, I've been working with him for a very long time.

MR B WILLIAMS: Are some of the incidents that you refer to in your Johannesburg affidavit, do they implicate Bellingan as well?

JIMMY MBANE: I don't know because in that affidavit from Johannesburg there are a lot of mistakes there, misprint of peoples names and so on.

MR B WILLIAMS: Then why would Bellingan hold any threat for you, I don't understand?

JIMMY MBANE: I'm here to tell the truth, I'm here as a witness.  I'm here to tell about the bad things that he did and I even told the Commission about the things that he didn't talk about.  For my safety as a person who is not under witness protection programme I've got to be careful.

MR B WILLIAMS: Would you agree, Mr Mbane, that your Johannesburg affidavit, with or without the minor errors that you refer to it's really a list of atrocities don't you agree?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: Do you have anything to gain by coming to confess to these things.

JIMMY MBANE: There's no gain for me.

MR B WILLIAMS: You've not applied for amnesty?

JIMMY MBANE: I haven't applied for amnesty.

MR B WILLIAMS: And you also consider yourself to be at
risk from your previous colleagues, is that what you're saying?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: I've no further questions, thank you my Lord.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR B WILLIAMS

CHAIRPERSON: My recollection is that you told us that after you ran away you went to some people and they gave you clothing so you could change your clothing and then you went and got a bus to Koeberg.  Is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, they gave me clothes and they took me with a car to KTC and I talked to Yamile there and from there Yamile took me to the bus terminal.  I bordered a bus to Koeberg.

CHAIRPERSON: That's all sounded very friendly.  Was it?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes we were friends.

CHAIRPERSON: Well in your affidavit, your Cape Town affidavit, you said in paragraph 15
"I ran back up NY1 and forced someone at gun-point to take me to Nyanga bush to Mr Yamile's place.

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct, those are the people, who gave me, I pointed them with a gun, they gave me clothes and they took me with a car to Yamile's place.

CHAIRPERSON: They were very friendly, you've just told me, but you were pointing a gun at them.

JIMMY MBANE: I didn't know those people.  I apologise, the interpreter made a mistake.  I thought you were asking if he was friends with Yamile, not with the people in the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

JIMMY MBANE: Can you please repeat your question, Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, sorry, any re-examination.

MR MOSES: Mr Chairman, I don't know, but from what I've heard from the interpreter, there seems to be a misunderstanding on the interpreter's side with regards to the Chairperson's last question and what has been conveyed over the microphone now via the interpreter is that she, the interpreter, understood the question to refer to a friendship between the witness and Mr Yamile and she was asking the Chairperson whether he would like to repeat the question so there was a mix-up with the interpretation it seems.

CHAIRPERSON: Your client has given his explanation, the witness has given his explanation, he has said so.

MR MOSES: What I was just referring to was that there was a clear, I got a clear...

CHAIRPERSON: He has said so, he said he thought the question was about his relationship with Mr Yamile.

MR MOSES: May I then proceed with a few questions in re-examination, Mr Chairman?  I thank you
Chairman and the Committee Member.  
	Just one or two aspects which I need to come back to, Mr Mbane, flowing from the cross-examination by my learned friend Mr Booyens.  I want you, can you explain very briefly to the Committee why after more or less three days of interrogation and torture did you decide to co-operate with the police?

JIMMY MBANE: I didn't say after three days, I said after three days I decided to tell them who I was, that was after being tortured for three days.  It's not that I said, I didn't say that I agreed on the third day to work with them.  I just told them who I was.

MR MOSES: And, if I understand you correctly, does it mean that the impact of the interrogation and the torture made you reveal certain information to your interrogators?  Is that how I understand your answer?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

MR MOSES: Now, Mr Mbane, reference was also made to the informers or alleged informers and the killing, subsequent killing that followed, relating to those incidences.  Now, perhaps you could just very briefly, enlighten the Committee as to the modus operandi of the people under whom you have worked at Vlakplaas, how would they keep track of you as Askaris.  What methods would they use to keep you in check as it were, to see that you are doing as you are told to do?

JIMMY MBANE: That is why they sent the informers.  They sent them with tape recorders.  That was their method in order to keep an eye on us.