Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-05-03

MR MBHELE: I would like to tell you that you haven't told the honest truth because I know you know the truth. Don't hide the truth, even though the people you may implicate are still outside they won't do you anything.  I know you're scared.  I know you know what is going on outside.  ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I don't want to interrupt, but he is not a witness, he is not giving evidence, he is questioning you.  Have you any further questions?

MR HLANGISA: No, I don't.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HLANGISA

MS MTANGA: Mr Chairperson, I've been asked by the Msimango family to put a few questions to the applicant on their behalf.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mbhele, the Msimango family would like to know what was the role of Mr Khumalo?  When Mr Msimango approached you about killing Mr Kwabe, what was Mr Khumalo's role?

MR MBHELE: They were working together with Mabiza, my commander.  They came together to fetch me from Mazibikweni.  They were with Uxhonsi Khumalo.  They told me that I should leave with Khumalo.  When we arrived in the car, there was someone I didn't know, someone I met for the first time, who introduced himself to me.  We went to John Vet(?).
	We found a certain Cressida, NP.  It was parked outside Khumalo's house and Khumalo told us we were supposed to go to Sun Freight to kill Mr Kwabe, who was an ANC member.

MS MTANGA: If you refer to page 122 of the record of the previous hearing, page 122.

MR MBHELE: I don't have that bundle.

MR LAX: Whereabout on that page please?  Just indicate to the witness.

MS MTANGA: The last paragraph, where Mr Mbhele gives evidence.
	When you were responding to the question that you were meeting Mr Khumalo and Mr Msimango for the first time, this is what you said:
"Yes, the first visit, and I went with him, and as we were going we took his car, a Cressida.  It was at Khumalo's house.  Before we left, Khumalo asked as to how much I will want and that got me confused because I did not think that was appropriate of him to ask me that kind of a question because first of all, I did not know what was happening and I told him: 'I'm lost, I don't know what's happening and you should know better than me because you are my senior, age-wise, position-wise.  In the hierarchy of the organisation you are my senior.'"
What the family would like to know is, were you promised any money to carry out the murder of the person that Msimango asked you to kill? - that is Mr Kwabe.

MR MBHELE: That is why I was confused because we used to carry these murders, but we were never promised money.  That is why, on this particular day I was confused why I was told about money.  I did ask him and I did mention this to him, that he is my senior.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mbhele, the family's understanding of that paragraph is that earlier on, the evidence you give before you get to this paragraph is that Mr Khumalo, Mr Msimango and Mkhize discussed this matter without you being present, so you were not aware of their discussion and what was being planned.
	Their understanding is that when Mr Khumalo asked you how much you wanted you couldn't answer that question because it didn't know  what it is that they were asking you, you didn't know what operation you were going on, you were going to carry out on their behalf, and hence you were confused as to how much you could ask for.

MR MBHELE: Yes, that's correct.

MS MTANGA: So were you ever paid for killing people?

MR MBHELE: No, not a single cent.  I've never received even a cent.

MS MTANGA: Why would, in this instance, Mr Khumalo ask you how much you wanted?

MR MBHELE: That is why I was confused because I never heard of such things or such conduct before.  I did ask him: "Why are you saying so today?"  Because we never talked about money before.

MS MTANGA: The family would also want to know from you, are you aware of the rumour that there was a reward of R28 000 for any person who could kill Mr Msimango.

MR MBHELE: I'm hearing this for the first time.  I don't know this.  Even if, if I've received this money people would have noticed.  I never received a cent because I was fighting as a soldier for the organisation.
	I told Mabiza that I've seen Mr Kwabe and Mabiza told me that ...(intervention)

MS MTANGA: So it is your evidence today that you never received any money from Mr Khumalo or Msimango?

MR MBHELE: Even a cent.  I've never received a single cent.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.  What stage have we reached now?

MS MTANGA: We have dealt with all the victims and the family's who wanted to give evidence and put questions to the applicant.  The only issue outstanding is the matter of Beki Mkhize, who was suppose to submit an affidavit as per agreed with him in the last hearing and also come and give evidence under oath.
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