Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-12-08

MR WILLS: Sorry Ms Chairperson, I must come in here.  My position Madam Chair, with the greatest respect, is that from my consultations with the applicant, it is clear that he didn't understand the implications of the Act, what the processes were.  I wouldn't go as far as saying that he wasn't told some things, because as I indicated, I wasn't there at those consultations, but what I am saying and what is clear to me is that up until recently, he does not understand the implications of that Act.  It was in that context that he gave his evidence, thank you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.   Your Attorney had just explained to me why he is applying for re-opening of the testimony.  Have you heard the reasons?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you agree?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: It is because I had previously had four Attorneys and I was confused on what they had advised me.  I think that is why I was not satisfied about my initial testimony.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, we feel that in the interest of justice and fairness, we should grant your application to re-open the matter and we now call upon you to lead whatever evidence you wish to place before this Committee.

MR WILLS: I am indebted to you, Madam Chair, may I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Mr Sambo, I don't want you to go into the long history about the harassment that you gave evidence of prior to this, particularly in your written application, I just want you to concentrate on the time when you were lounging or relaxing on the back of your Mazda 626 when the two persons arrived at your yard.  I want you to tell the Committee exactly what happened from that point in time onwards, can you proceed?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: As I was standing there, I saw a car going, pass by and it came back again.  They came and they entered my home.  As I was there next to the car, I thought maybe that they are people from the garages, then I approached them.  I got Mr van der Spuy next to the BMW opening the doors, the other one was next to the Sentra.

MR LAX: Sorry, can you just go a little bit more slowly, we are trying to take notes of your evidence.  Just give us a second, just to catch up and then I will indicate when you can continue.     Please carry on.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: When I reached the people from the BMW, I got van der Spuy opening the doors of my car, the left side.   I then questioned him on who gave him the permission to open the doors, because I am the owner, he did not even introduce himself. Mr van der Spuy then, he spoke in Afrikaans, I could not understand but it was very much urgent.   He therefore took out his gun.  I therefore learnt from that situation that these are police and they are my enemies.    He therefore shot and then I disturbed him, because I was very much near to him when he was shooting.   He therefore shot.  Before that, I disturbed him, I grabbed his hand, I fought with him, I took the gun to myself.   Then because I then realised that they were police and they were the enemies of the ANC, I therefore shot him on the spot with the intention to kill.

CHAIRPERSON: What made you to realise that these people who you initially thought, or they had not, you initially thought they were from the garage, what made you realise that they were the police?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: The firearms that they had.   I thought because they were having firearms, then I concluded they were police and enemies of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they not at any point identify themselves to you as policemen, that is the evidence that we already have from Mr O'Farrell?  Did they not before you identified them as policemen, did they not themselves identify themselves to you as members of the police?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: They never.

CHAIRPERSON: So just by seeing guns in their possession, you then thought they were the police?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MR WILLS: Thank you, just before you go off that incident, you mentioned that you disturbed Mr van der Spuy.  I just want to be clear, to repeat your evidence you say that he drew his firearm and then you disturbed him and then a shot went off.  How exactly did you disturb him?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Then I was just in front of him, next to the car, when he drew the gun, I realised that he wanted to shoot at me.   He therefore shot the first shot.  By then I disturbed him not to shoot me on top.  He took the shot, he took the gun, it was so (indistinct) what I am talking about.  When he took out the gun, it was clear to me that he wanted to kill me.  I therefore reacted quickly and disturbed him by grabbing his hand, as I am doing, then the first shot went off and I was shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Interpreter, wouldn't grappling with Mr van der Spuy be more appropriate than disturbing?  That is how I understand his evidence in Swati, he grappled with Mr van der Spuy and that is how he won possession of his gun?

INTERPRETER: My understanding is that he grappled with Mr van der Spuy in order to get the gun.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, not disturb him.

INTERPRETER: Okay.

MR WILLS: Thank you Madam Chair.  And now, you then disarmed this person whom by that stage you realised was the policeman and then you shot him, is that right?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, it is like that.

MR WILLS: Even though he was disarmed?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: It is like that.

MR WILLS: And your intention from your evidence, it is clear that you simply wanted to kill him?  Is that right?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: It is like that.

MR WILLS: Immediately after that, what happened?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: After I shot him, therefore  went back to the car.  When he was at the back at the car, I checked where Mr O'Farrell is, and he was in front of the car.  I also tried to shoot at him.   He was lucky, I could not get him.  He therefore lost his gun, dropped his gun and ran away, (indistinct)

MR WILLS: Okay, I just want you to give a little more detail, when you say you tried to get him what do you mean?  Did you fire shots at him, or did you run and attack him physically, what was the position?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: I didn't run at him, I just fired my shots and he then dropped his firearm and he ran to the small farm, where on the scene there was this mealies, it was just close, those two places were very close, just near, plus minus six metres.  I therefore took the gun.

MR LAX: Just a second, you say it was very near and then the interpreter said plus minus six metres?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, I mean the distance between, where the (interpreter) and Mr O'Farrell was standing.

MR LAX: Sorry, you broke up there, the interpretation didn't come through.  Just repeat it please.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: When I turned to look at where Farrell is, he was in front of the BMW car.   I then fired the shot, trying to shoot Farrell.  Farrell dropped his shot and ran to, and the distance between the small farm and myself, that is where I am saying it is plus minus maybe six metres when I estimate the distance.

MR LAX: When you talk about a small farm, Mr Interpreter, are you talking about a field of mealies, or what are you talking about?

INTERPRETER: It is a mealie field.

MR LAX: Thank you.  That makes more sense, thank you.

MR WILLS: Now, you say you fired the shots at Mr O'Farrell and what was your intention in regard to that activity, what did you want to do?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: I wanted to kill him.

MR WILLS: But you weren't successful in this regard?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you get the interpretation?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Now I do get it.

MR LAX: Sorry, if you take your hands away  from the thing, please, yes.  Mr Sambo, your hands are blocking the signal when you put them over the front of that thing, that is why you cannot hear sometimes.  Please continue Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Why did you want to kill him?