Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1976-07-19

MR VAN WYK: No Sir we did not have a written policy for the sole fact that we didn't want to have too many written documents that would later be or can be used as evidence or because we were an underground organisation we tried to have everything as clandestine as possible.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Can I say that you were then operating on day-to-day events as you were encountering them?

MR VAN WYK: No we weren't operating on day-to-day events.  We had a basic policy by which we operated. Even just the oath that was a written document that we had confirmed that, but I think I did not see a lot of documents at all because of my position in the organisation.  I was not allowed in the discussions about basic policy-making and planning and so forth.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But pertinent to the oath which you say you were taking, you were taking the oath in order to do what?

MR VAN WYK: We took the oath to say that we would be loyal to the aims of the organisation, to the broader aims of what we tried to accomplish and to be faithful and loyal to the Afrikaner people and to the White people in general.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you in your operation, in your movement envisage to say achieve the change of any existing position or to maintain the status quo as it was then?

MR VAN WYK: In the organisation itself?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, NSP.

MR VAN WYK: Yes there would have been a change soon after we went overseas and when we returned there would have been a base camp in Namibia itself and I think there things would have changed dramatically seeing that we envisaged training troops there for the fight and to basically launch our objectives from outside the country and not from within as such.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Ja, what I am trying to drive at is this, as you say you were going to launch your objectives, what was the ultimate goal to be achieved by your objectives?

MR VAN WYK: Ja, there was basically goals within goals.  The immediate objectives or the shorter term objectives would be to achieve a change in South Africa, to achieve a position where Afrikaners would have a Volkstaat to basically oppose the ANC regime and its takeover of the country and to protect the people, the Afrikaner people and the White people basically within the broader aims of a more international coexistence with other rightwing organisations on an international level where we would basically finance and cross finance and have support from over State lines etc.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I listened a little bit to the issue of the three murders of innocent persons.  I know that you did not do that, it was your colleague with whom you were on the spot, but in your own opinion do you think this was necessary to be done?

MR VAN WYK: When you say I did not do that, I did however, shoot one of the people there and as well I did shoot Mrs Roux although I did not know that I was shooting at her as such.  Only after the event happened did I see that she was there, although I did shoot one of the people involved, I don't know to say if I felt it was necessary.  I think if you go on the basic planning and the plan was if anything went wrong we would discontinue our action and retreat basically, but as White was the leader, he was in the position of leadership, I had to obey his commands and at that stage the way I felt I was an ultimate ultra-rightwing racist, so it did not touch me that deeply when I shot that Black man at that stage.  So I could reconcile myself with that.  It was only, as a I say when Mrs Roux was shot that it touched me.  And as I say I did not know beforehand that I was shooting at her.

JUDGE WILSON: I think you said you thought there was somebody there but you weren't sure, or something to that effect, didn't you?

MR VAN WYK: No when he shot into the cupboard I also shot into the cupboard.  I knew there was someone there, I just did not know that it was a White person, that's the basic thing.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You were asked the question by one of the members of the Committee whilst testifying as to whether you foresaw killing person or persons at Louis Trichardt and you answered in the negative, am I right?

MR VAN WYK: That's right.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you testified further that the decision to shoot or to kill was an instruction ...(intervention)

MR VAN WYK: That's right.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Given to you.

MR VAN WYK: That's right.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Can you then agree with me if I say this that the decision to kill was not part of the policy of your organisation, it was an individual decision taken there and then?

MR VAN WYK: I think if you look at the policy that we envisaged in the long term there would have been - someone would have been killed because we planned eventually in the long term to launch terrorist attacks against targets in the country.  That was part of the planning from the base in Namibia, that was the whole basic plan as well to get the Afrikaner White people onto our side by being visible in such a way through terrorist activities and by utilising the media as well because of those actions.  So there would have been someone killed in the long run, we knew that.  And we knew that when we encountered any of the security forces we would not think twice to shoot.  But on that specific day the part of the planning it was not envisaged that there would be innocent victims killed, that was a decision that was taken on the scene by White.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, yes, I agree with you inasfar as the global injuries and causing of death is concerned in the process of your pursuing whatever objective you wanted to pursue, but I am confining you here now to this particular killing in Louis Trichardt, and I am saying to you that this was an individual's decision and not the party's decision.

MR VAN WYK: Ja it was an individual's decision in that White was the military leader and adviser of the organisation because of his experience that position was given to him.  But, although when du Plessis gave permission for the operation White was also put in charge over me, so he had to take decisions in due regard during the operation.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Can you, if you can answer this one, refer to four people as enough to form an organisation or a party?

MR VAN WYK: Ja, we thought of ourselves as the first cell of plenty that would be there eventually.  We knew that all things started small and we knew that our chances for success would most probably be on the small side, but we thought it worthwhile seeing because of our objectives we were prepared to die for we thought better half a percent a chance than zero, that's the way we thought then.  And in due regard the planning of the organisation we thought that within a few months time we would have a base camp operating where we would be training recruits for a couple of months and we would indoctrinate them there, etc.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Ja.  Four as you were and after having told this Committee that you had the "lederingde gehaad" in the running of your movement can you really say that your movement was a well, firmly-established movement to can take charge of anything?  Can you refer to it as an established movement to carry political objectives?

MR VAN WYK: Yes, in my view it was because we were still at the infant stage of the organisation and because of, I think if you look at further documents that will be provided there were certain planning stages, stage 1 to 10 I think, I can't exactly, but it's not on my documentation, and we were still at stage 1 of the planning and it was plan 2 the detail, every move we would make till we reach our end objective.  I think if I look back at it now I would see it as being naive to think that one could really change the country and the future of people in South Africa in that way.  But seen from the viewpoint I had, from the political objective I saw it and from the culture I operated I thought it would be, we would be able to achieve it maybe.