Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-18

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the only reason why you left, you got out of the kombi to go and participate in the chasing and the shooting of the deceased?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Had it not been this fear of being killed by the askaris would you have participated in the shooting of the deceased?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Please repeat the question Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Had it not been for this fear of being killed by the askaris would you have participated in the shooting of the deceased?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You would not have participated?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: If I had not heard the warning or the threat that in their operations a person who did not participate they come back and kill that one I would not have participated.

CHAIRPERSON: You would not have left the kombi to go and shoot at the deceased?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that Shosha did not go out of the kombi?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct Sir she went out of the car later.

CHAIRPERSON: She did not participate in the shooting?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did she participate in the chasing?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Dilizo is there anything arising?

MR DILIZO: No questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: No questions thank you.

MR KNIGHT: No questions Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tabato?

MR TABATO: No questions Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wessels?

MR WESSELS: No questions thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr ...(inaudible)

MR DUKADA: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes very well. Thank you Mr Dandala you may stand down.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Thank you.

WITNESS IS: .

MR DILIZO: Mr Chairman that is the evidence for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Knight are you ready to proceed straight away or do you want a minute or two to?

MR KNIGHT: Mr Chairman a minute or two would be appreciated just so that we can make the final seating arrangements.

CHAIRPERSON: How much time do you need?

MR KNIGHT: 10 to 15 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: 10 to 15?

MR KNIGHT: It will be maybe 5. It won't be long. It just depend on all my colleagues.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it? Is it 5, 10 or 15?

MR KNIGHT: 5 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay well shall we give you 10?

MR KNIGHT: If you wish.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes very well. We will rest for 10 minutes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS: .
ON RESUMPTION

MR KNIGHT: ... that I have put in qualifications that were in fact left blank in the original. My understanding is that there is a precedent that the applications may be amended. There is no question of the fact that application wasn't made. It is properly made before and it is properly before the Commission. It is just amending some of the pages. So I have prepared an annexure and I would request that the amendment be granted in respect of this incident Mr Chairman.
	Mr Chairman I must apologise for the copies. The photostat machine wasn't working when copies  were made. I will endeavour to have clean copies placed before you.

CHAIRPERSON: One of my colleagues here, Advocate Sigidi doesn't have a copy of the amended application. Do you have an extra one?

MR KNIGHT: Mr Chairman I will just check through here. I might have one. There were additional copies made. Mr Hugo kindly ...

CHAIRPERSON: Well we have got one now yes. Now what parts of the. Mr Mapoma do you have any objections to the application for amendment?

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairman I don't have objection. Especially in the sense that this amendment is mainly an addition of the gaps that were not completed by the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is the original one? Does that occur at page 44? Is that it?

MR MAPOMA: From page 41, 42, 43. But I take it that the affidavit will remain as it is. The amendment won't affect the affidavit. That which starts from page 44, 45, 46, 47, 48 up to page 53. To the extent that this amendment does not alter the contents of the affidavit I won't have a problem Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dukada?

MR DUKADA: Mr Chairman I have no objection to the proposed amendment.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: I have no objection thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wessels?

MR WESSELS: I have no objection. Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR DUKADA: I have no objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Will be granted.

MR KNIGHT: As Mr Chairman pleases. Mr Chairman may I proceed to call Mr Shabalala?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes very well. What language is Mr Shabalala going to speak?

MR KNIGHT: Mr Chairman Mr Shabalala will testify in Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may sit down.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: (sworn states)

MR KNIGHT: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman I intend leading the witness on a background and then with regard to the incident. Thank you. Mr Shabalala could you state your age for the record?
I am 45 years of age.

MR KNIGHT: Where are you currently employed?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: At the moment I work in Pretoria.

MR KNIGHT: As what?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I am working as a security in a company in Pretoria. Security guard or security officer.

MR KNIGHT: Now from the period approximately 1982 until the end of Vlakplaas you were based there. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: That is correct Sir I was working there.

MR KNIGHT: Could you give the Commission some background information relating to your military training that you received with the ANC before you went to Vlakplaas?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I can tell. I stayed with the ANC almost 4 years outside the country.

MR KNIGHT: In which countries did you receive training?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I was in Angola most of the time. I left for Germany. I stayed there for something like 6 months. I went back to Angola again. I stayed there for almost 4 years if I am not mistaken.

MR KNIGHT: Now in approximately 1982 you returned to South Africa. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes that is correct. I came back to South Africa.

MR KNIGHT: And you approached the South African Police at Newcastle. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: That is correct Sir.

MR KNIGHT: When you were at Newcastle for a short period then you were transferred to Vlakplaas. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: That is correct Sir.

MR KNIGHT: When you arrived at Vlakplaas can you recall who your commanding officer was at that time?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: My commanding officer at the time was Jan Coetzee  - Coetzee but I can't remember the first name.

MR KNIGHT: Jan Coetzee. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: That is correct Sir. It was Jan Coetzee.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shabalala I would request that you raise your voice when giving your evidence so that the people at the back there next to the door hear what you are saying. Thank you Sir. Wait a minute. Now in 1982 you say you returned to South Africa and then you approached the SAP in Newcastle. Is that right?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes that is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do there? What did you say to the SAP?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I had some difficulties because I wanted to go home because I was tired of staying out of the country. I didn't want to be there any more. I talked to them and they said if I can work with them and cooperate with them as a person who had some knowledge of the things that were happening outside they can let me work with them because I didn't want to be there any more. I was already in South Africa at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: So is the position that when you returned in 1982 you proceeded to the South African Police in Newcastle and you told them that you were a member of the ANC from exile who was now sick and tired of life in exile. You wanted to return to South Africa?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: That is correct Sir.