Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-08-29

COMMISSIONER: Mrs Ntuli, are you Khanyisile Ethel Ntuli?  Can you hear me, Mrs Ntuli?

MRS NTULI: Yes, I do hear you.

COMMISSIONER: Are you Khanyisile Ethel Ntuli?

MRS NTULI: Yes.

COMMISSIONER: And you have with you on the stage?

MR NTULI: It's my son, Mbusi.

COMMISSIONER: We welcome you both here today.  You are from Umbumbulu, and you have come ... (intervention)

MRS NTULI: No.

COMMISSIONER: Where are you from?

MRS NTULI: I am destitute.  I don't have a place to stay.

COMMISSIONER: You and your son have come to talk about some of the events which led up to the massacre in KwaMakutha, where you lost your husband and your three daughters and grandchildren.  Before you tell us about that tragic story can you please stand to take the oath.  Will you both be giving evidence today, yourself and your Mbusi?

MRS NTULI: Yes.

KHANYISILE ETHEL NTULI AND MBUSI NTULI: (Sworn, States)  (Through Interpreter)

COMMISSIONER: Mr Lax will help you with your evidence.

MR LAX: Good afternoon Mrs Ntuli, and good afternoon to you, Mbusi.

WITNESS:   Good afternoon to you.

MR LAX: Mbusi, if you need to you could wear these headphones.  They will help with the translation into Zulu.

WITNESS:   No, no ... (inaudible)

MR LAX: I understand that, but if you will talk in Zulu so that the people present can hear, so that those that don't understand English will hear the Zulu, and those that don't understand Zulu will at least hear the translation in English, so that way we can have as many people to understand as possible.  Before we move on to the story of the tragic events which you will be telling us about, which include both of you personally and members of your family, could you briefly for us just tell us how your family was made up, how many people, and how many children you have had, and so on.

WITNESS:   I had seven children.

MR LAX: You were married to the late Willie Ntuli, is that correct?

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR LAX: Could you assist us by just, if you know, giving us your husband's date of birth at all?

WITNESS:   I think he was born in 1924.

MR LAX: Thank you, that's very helpful.  Now, your family lived at KwaMakutha, is that correct?

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR LAX: And your husband was a church minister.

WITNESS:   Yes, that's correct, but I would like to say something before we go on.  Unfortunately today I won't relate the story because I did not see my attorney, but what I would like to continue and tell you about is what took place before -after the attack.

MR LAX: When you say after the attack, you want to talk about the harassment of your family after that attack?

WITNESS:   After the attack there were many things occurred and that took place and transpired.  First of all what hurt me and what was most painful to me, I lost hope in our law, in the court of law.  The mayor came and said the police will come and secure us.  They mayor left for Amanzimtoti, and when he came back he said the station commander of Amanzimtoti said I should come in person to him.  I asked and said, "What will I do and say, because there are police there, and the police will ask as to who I am and why I am looking for him?  He does not know me, I don't know him either.  I don't even know his office."  Victor took me with to Durban.  Although I don't remember quite well as to who we spoke to, but I know very well it was a white man.  He explained and gave me a report, a letter to take to Amanzimtoti.  I went to give the police at Amanzimtoti that letter, and I was taken to the station commander's office.

MR LAX: The white man you went to see, was that a lawyer who gave you the letter?

WITNESS:   I think so today.  Then I did not know, but today I am convinced that was an attorney.

MR LAX: You may proceed.

WITNESS:   We got there and we sat around the table with that white man who was there, and I gave this white man the letter.  He read it and asked me didn't the mayor tell me that he was looking for me.  I said, "Yes, he told me."  Then he said, "Why didn't you come, because I was looking for you?  You went around to your friends, and after that you get this letter to take it to me," and he tore that letter apart and said, "You are a bitch."  And I said, "You shit."  I said, "You should come to me alone, and you went around to friends and contacting other people, and you are coming after a long time."  And even what I was trying to relating to him he could not understand me because he was so furious and fuming.  Each time I would say something, utter a word to him, he will respond immediately.  He asked me who were investigating the case.  Because I was confused and shattered I did not know who were investigating, and there were investigators standing suddenly.  I did not even know when they came and who called them.  He asked them what did they know about Makutha's issue, and there was one police I knew, it's Hadebe, because he was my neighbour, and Hadebe explained and said at 18 it's Inkatha which is leading.  And they were talking, talking so many things that I can't recall.  After some time he turned and looked at me, this white man, and said to me - and said, "Take this lady out of my office," and these police took me out of the office.  I left that place.  I was confused, I did not know what was happening.  You know we drove a long time, and I did not even know where the taxis to KwaMakutha were because it was such a strange place that we were at.  I left - but I am not going to dwell in this matter.

MR LAX: Mrs Ntuli, if I could just interrupt you for a moment there.  The policeman that spoke to you, was he the station commander of Amanzimtoti Police Station?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR LAX: Do you know what his name was by any chance?

WITNESS:  No, I don't know his name.

MR LAX: Do you know whether he was a station - was he in plain clothes or was he in uniform?

WITNESS:   He was in uniform, and had the medals on.

MR LAX: After this - this mayor that had spoke to you and told you to go and see the police at Amanzimtoti, his name was Shabalala, is that correct?

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR LAX: What area was he mayor of?

WITNESS:   Makutha, Makutha location.

MR LAX: Was he involved with any political organisations as far as you are aware?

WITNESS:   I wouldn't know.

MR LAX: Now, this was in 1987, is that right?

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR LAX: And at that time most political organisations except for the IFP were opposed to being part of those structures.  Do you remember that?

WITNESS:   Can you please repeat your question.

MR LAX: At that time in 1987 most of the political organisations, particularly the UDF, were opposed to people being involved in those structures, to be mayor of townships and so on.  Do you remember that?

WITNESS:   There is nothing I can say and remark about inasfar as these groups are concerned, because I was not a member of any group.

MR LAX: So you were just an ordinary citizen, not a member of any party.

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR LAX: Thank you.  Now, as far as the actual attack on your house is concerned, you yourself weren't present on that day.

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR LAX: That's partly why you are able to be here today.

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR LAX: You told us that you went to Izingolweni to prepare for a church meeting there.

WITNESS:   Yes, at Izingolweni.

MR LAX: Right.  Now, it's no secret that your house was attacked, and that ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   Yes, it's no secret.

MR LAX: ... people were killed at your house.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR LAX: And in fact the subject of that attack is presently the subject of a court case in the Supreme Court.  You're aware of that?

WITNESS:   Would you please repeat your question.

MR LAX: The attack which we are talking about is the subject of a court case in the Supreme Court.  Do you confirm that?

WITNESS:   Yes.