Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-26

MR BERGER: So there would have been hundreds and hundreds of people present when the announcement was made that Mr Nosenga is being taken to Ulundi?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, there was a large number of people when the meeting was held.

MR BERGER: Was Mr Mkhize at that meeting?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I've already mentioned that my co-applicants were already arrested, he knows nothing about Nosenga.

MR BERGER: So the answer is, Mr Mkhize was not at that meeting?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: He was not present.

MR BERGER: Was Prince Vanana Zulu at that meeting?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, he was present.

MR BERGER: How long had Mr Nosenga been at the hostel before he was taken to Mr Khumalo?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I cannot lie, I cannot remember.

MR BERGER: Approximately?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I cannot even estimate, I cannot remember.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga must have, on your version, must have come to the hostel almost immediately after the Boipatong attack, would that be right?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: So would you say that is was public knowledge, everyone at the hostel knew Mr Nosenga, and everyone knew that Mr Nosenga was a man who had been sent by the ANC to plant bombs in the hostel?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Other people who were with me in the hostel knew, except the people who were already arrested.

MR BERGER: What did Mr Khumalo say at that meeting was going to happen to Mr Nosenga in Ulundi, why was he being taken to Ulundi?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Though he did not mention the reason, he first mentioned something about the truth, the truth that would be taken.  And he later mentioned that even this young man who was there to plant the bombs would be taken with to Ulundi.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga wasn't going to conference as a delegate I take it, he was going to conference as an exhibit, am I right?  He was going to be presented to the leaders at conference.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I think he was there as an exhibit from Kwamadala hostel.

MR BERGER: As an ANC spy who had been sent by the ANC to blow up the hostel.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And this conference in Ulundi was addressed by the top leadership of the IFP at the time, am I right, including Chief Mangasotho Buthelezi?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Though I was not there, I think it was like that.

MR BERGER: Can you explain why Chief Buthelezi has said in the media that he knows nothing about this Mr Nosenga?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Are you talking about the Buthelezi in the Committee or someone else?

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Berger, the man wasn't at the meeting, how can he explain anything about what might have happened in Mr Buthelezi's mind or why he would deny something?  He doesn't know whether the man was actually presented to him or not, it's not a fair question.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Mr Lax, I will rephrase the question.
	Who else besides Mr Khumalo and Mr Nosenga went to the conference at Ulundi?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Will you please repeat the question?

MR BERGER: I'm talking about the delegation from ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What you are being asked is, apart from Nosenga and Mr Khumalo, who else went to Ulundi.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: The people who went to the conference, I heard that it was Vincent Khanyile, Vincent Khanyile was one of them and Prince Zulu was one of them too, Bazuka and the others, quite a number of people although I cannot remember the other names.

MR BERGER: Well I'd like you to think hard about who the people were who went to Ulundi.  You were at a meeting ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, do you want him to give us all the names of the persons who went to Ulundi?

MR BERGER: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you recall the names of all the person who went to Ulundi?

MR BERGER: From Kwamadala.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I've already said that I cannot remember the others.

MR SIBANYONI: Are there any of the people who are your co-applicants here, who went to Ulundi?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, it is Vincent Khanyile.

MR SIBANYONI: Is he the only one amongst the co-applicants?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, among my co-applicants he is the only one that I know did go to Ulundi.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Besides your co-applicants - well, are you saying that all your co-applicants besides Mr Vincent Khanyile were arrested at the time of the Ulundi conference?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, there are others with whom I was arrested.  We were arrested in groups, we were not arrested all at once.

MR BERGER: Well let me ask you about Qambelani Buthelezi, Bhekinkosi Mkhize and Victor Mthembu, had they all been arrested by the time of the Ulundi conference?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Buthelezi was already arrested, Mkhize as well, Victor was arrested together with myself.

MR BERGER: And Victor Mthembu never went to Ulundi to the conference?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I cannot remember very well as to whether he attended the conference or not.

MR BERGER: And then after the conference, Mr Nosenga was brought back to the hostel.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And what report-back did you receive from Mr Khumalo or any other delegate to the conference, as to what had happened in Ulundi in relation to Mr Nosenga?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: They did not tell me anything.

MR BERGER: What was the status then of Mr Nosenga?  Here was a man who had come to plant bombs in the hostel, the allegation was important enough for him to be taken off to Ulundi to the national conference, this had been announced at a public meeting in the stadium, and he comes back to the hostel and there is no report-back to the hostel dwellers about what has been decided to be done with Mr Nosenga.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: It might as well be that something was said in my absence.  Yes, that is possible, something may have been said to the residents.

MR BERGER: Well didn't you ask anyone about what happened to Nosenga in Ulundi, or what is his status now in the hostel, what are we to do with him?  Did you ask anyone?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, I did not ask anyone.

MR BERGER: You were just happy to have him back in the hostel and he walked around freely?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I just looked at him as one of the residents at the hostel.

MR BERGER: I put it to you, Mr Dlamini, that your version about Mr Nosenga saying that he came to the hostel to plant bombs is absolute nonsense.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, I know that to be the truth.

MR BERGER: When you made your application for amnesty at page 211, 12 and 13, were you in prison?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No.

MR BERGER: This was February 1998.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No.

MR BERGER: You were taken to the police station in Vereeniging to have your application attested, is that right?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you were accompanied by Mr Nana Tshabangu who acted as your interpreter, am I correct?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You have confirmed that the documents at pages 214 and 215 have been read to you and translated to you and you agree with the contents of those two pages, am I right?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: In that document you say, or you agree with the statement which says that
"The attack was a warning to ANC supporters in Boipatong, not to support the Self Defence Units."
Do you agree with that?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I agree with that.

MR BERGER: The idea, you say, was to intimidate the residents of Boipatong in the same way as  you had been intimidated, do you agree with that?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes.