Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-10

CHAIRPERSON: In order to help us go through this effort much more easier, just answer the question that Mr Berger is asking.  If you remember say yes, I do, if you don't remember, say I don't remember.   If you know that he came more than once, tell us that he came there more than once, but I can't tell you how many times.  If you know he came more than two times, tell us.  No one is going to hold you onto giving us the details of these visits, how many were they.  What you are being asked is mainly did he come there once, twice or how many times, do you understand the question, do you understand what is required of you now?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Put the question again.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think he came to me twice.  I think he came twice, if I am not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: He was there twice?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, at Leeukop.

MR BERGER: You see, what I want to suggest to you Mr Nosenga, is that he came more than twice, he came a number of times.  Let me tell you what I mean.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us get a response to the first part first.  What Mr Berger is saying to you is this, you say if you think, if you remember very well, you think he came twice, do you understand that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.  Yes, I understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Berger is saying is that Mr - this is Mr Mongezi right - Mr Mongezi came to see you on more than two occasions, what do you say to that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot dispute that, it is possible.

MR BERGER: Chairperson his full name is Mongezi Tshongweni.  The first time he came to see you, was after you phoned him.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Then he came to see you with Caroline Nichols?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it is possible, I cannot dispute that.

MR BERGER: At that meeting you discussed your role in Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And in brief terms, I don't want to rehash everything that has been gone through before, but at that meeting with Mongezi and Caroline, can you remember what you told them about Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I think I did tell them something, even though I cannot remember exactly what.  I am saying yes, I remember I told them something.

CHAIRPERSON: Please speak up.   Do not swallow your last words.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I understand sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I understand sir.

MR BERGER: Do you remember talking about the involvement of the Police to them?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I told them.

MR BERGER: And do you remember talking about the involvement of Themba Khosa to them?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I told them that Themba Khosa came to the meeting, the meeting that was held two weeks before the attack and he was in the company of Peens.

MR BERGER: And then do you, or let me ask you this, your application for amnesty which is from page 1 to page 7 of Bundle R, I know you can't read, but ...

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I cannot read.

MR BERGER: That application was completed also in 1996, do you remember who helped you to complete that application?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't want to tell a lie.  I cannot remember.

MR BERGER: If I tell you that it was Mongezi who helped you to complete that application, what would you say to that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot dispute that.  I cannot dispute that.

MR BERGER: That was Mongezi's third visit to you?  And then Mongezi visited you a fourth time, I don't know if you remember Mongezi coming with another man?

MR LOWIES: Sorry Chair, the response to the third visit was not interpreted.

MR LAX: What do you say to what Mr Berger said that this form was filled out during the third visit by Mongezi Tshongweni to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I cannot dispute that, it is possible.

MR BERGER: And then a fourth visit when Mongezi came with a man, a white man?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga, if you don't remember, you must say you don't remember, but let me try and assist you.  This man came from the - hang on - came from the Special Investigation Unit in Pretoria and he accompanied Mongezi to come and visit you also in 1996?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, you keep on saying it is possible.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying it is possible, even though I cannot remember, I don't know who he was.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember that or don't you remember?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot say I remember that, I am saying it is possible that Mongezi came in the company of this white person because many people came to visit me.

MR BERGER: Now Mr Nosenga, I know that lots of forms and statements have been filled out from you, but I want you to try and focus on what I am going to say to you now.  Remember you told the Committee last week that you applied for amnesty long ago.  Do you remember that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I remember.

MR BERGER: And that when you saw Victor Mthembu on television, it was long before that that you had applied for amnesty, do you remember that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Now what I am trying to establish is what is your application for amnesty, and I will show you what I mean.  There is a bundle of papers there, Exhibit R,  and I want you to look at the first ten pages.  Pages 1 to 7 are the pages which Mongezi helped you to fill out and then you signed at the bottom of page 6, do you see that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I can see that.

MR BERGER: And that you did in front of a Commissioner of Oaths at Leeukop prison, in other words there was a prison official who was present when you signed at the bottom of page 6?  Do you see that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I can see that.

MR BERGER: Do you remember the circumstances around which you signed this document, it would have been in 1996, September 1996?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We went to Medium C, Leeukop, that is where this was completed.

MR BERGER: Yes, you are correct, that is exactly what happened.  You see that on page 7, certainly.    Now in this document, you gave certain details and when you were asked for the acts, omissions or offences for which you seek amnesty, you gave details of the killing of ANC supporters in the Vaal Triangle, at the bottom of page 2, sub-paragraph 4.  I will read it to you and it will be translated for you, Mr Nosenga, you say
"... I together with people mentioned in the document, I think it is annexed hereto, were involved in killing ANC supporters in the Vaal Triangle."
	Is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did say that.  I referred to the Sebokeng incident.

MR BERGER: You say there ...

CHAIRPERSON: What is the answer?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I did mention that, referring to the Sebokeng incident for which I was convicted.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: Now also in that sentence you see there is talk of "a document annexed hereto."  Do you know what document was annexed?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I cannot recall very well.

MR BERGER: Right, then you say
"... the first incident was in a shack which was next to a road, ANC supporters were known to frequent that place.  We shot at people outside the shack in Everton."

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Maybe there was a misunderstanding.  I am saying we started at Zone 12 and proceeded right through to Everton.

MR BERGER: Yes, you have said that last week

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.