Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR HESSLINGA: Mr Chair, can I just correct you in this regard, I was not in any way involved in the investigation with regard to Stompie Sepei's case.  My only involvement with regard to the Stompie Sepei case was in the search of Mrs Mandela's house where I acted as a guard.
 I also obtained a Volkswagen Kombi vehicle at Jan Smuts after Mrs Mandela returned from Cape Town.  With regard to the Cebekhulu case or matter, I was not involved in any way.  I was the investigating officer in the Asvat case while Captain Dempsey - at that time, was entirely the investigating officer in the Stompie Sepei and Cebekhulu matters.
 In addition - to answer the question comprehensively, I did have the two statements in my possession as this been stated to me now and this was amongst the statements filed in my docket - that is in fact correct.

MR PIGOU: ...[inaudible] your investigation surely could not have existed in some sort of isolated vacuum, some sort of bubble where you didn't share information.  Here you have quite a clear connection between cases or at least in terms of allegations, Senior Superintendent Dempsey surely he was reporting to the commanding officer about what was going on inside his case.
 Was there no kind of docket inspection which is standard procedure inside the South African Police and surely your docket also, there would have been some sort of reference point there?   I do not understand how the connection could not have been made, could you perhaps explain that to us?

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, the only statement in the docket which in any way implicated Mrs Mandela, were the two statements by Tulani Nicholas Dlamini, both the first statement on the 17th of February made to a Captain Smuts - this was a simple oath statement or sworn statement, on the 18th of February the same person Mr Dlamini - accused 2, made a statement to a police officer, Lieutenant Gert Petrus Zeelie, both of these statements were - these statements had internal conflicts.
 In statement one, Dlamini says that he had been hired by Mrs Mandela and that an amount of R300.000-00 would have been paid to him.  He speaks of a Coloured man in a BMW vehicle who would have waited for him after the murder, he also speaks of their hiding away in a flat in Vereeniging and that subsequently they returned and were then arrested. 
 In the second statement to the police officer, he makes different claims from that made in the first statement.  In the second statement he refers to an amount of R20.000-00.  During his explanation in our taking him to court, accused 2 - which is Dlamini, explained that he didn't know anything about this - he wasn't at the place, he doesn't know the address, he never had a firearm or any ammunition in his possession and he doesn't know accused 1.
 We then obtained evidence that accused 1 and 2 were in fact half brothers - step brothers and if one takes these statements and you read them both - in view of the statements of accused one, you then find that accused 1 made a statement, accused 2 claims that accused number 1 said to him that he, accused number 2, he's being hired by Winnie Mandela.  So, he was not was not directly hired or spoken to by Mrs Mandela, accused 1 said this to him.
 Accused number 1 doesn't mention this in his statement, he says in his statement that they were looking for money, that they were thinking of a robbery, that they surveyed Doctor Asvat's rooms on two occasions, that they saw Doctor Asvat get out of his motor vehicle with his doctor's bag in hand, that accused 1 then said to accused 2: "There must be a lot of money in that bag" and that at the end of the day they shot the doctor.
 According to his statement they did take money, they took R135-00 in cash from the doctor's rooms and subsequently they divided the money amongst themselves, each of them took R60-00 and R15-00 was then used for ammunition.

MR PIGOU: Thank you for pointing out all those contradictions but let me ask you this - on the basis of those contradictions, did you decide then that it was not necessary to pursue a line of investigation with regards to the allegations made in connection with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, if I can be allowed to conclude my explanation.

DR BORAINE: ...[inaudible] thank you.

MR HESSLINGA: Subsequently accused number 1 made an identification and on the scene he said certain things which were coherent with his original statement.  In his subsequent explanation in court - in terms of his plea, there was a continued consistency with his indications at the scene and his original statement.
 What I want to say is that as the investigating officer, Mbatha, accused number 1 appeared to me to give an entirely acceptable explanation and he continued to be consistent in his story while accused number 2 jumped around and changed his story all the time.
 In addition I could state Chairperson, that additional evidence obtained by us from ambulance staff who arrived on the scene at the time of Doctor Asvat's shooting, contradicts this statement of Dlamini with regard to the fact that a Coloured man in a BMW vehicle had been waiting for him.  
 While we have two sworn statements from two firemen who followed Dlamini and Mbatha when they ran away from the house of Doctor Asvat, that they ran through an open field and that they were therefore not able to continue to pursue these two.  They then stopped a police vehicle, they made a report to the police vehicle, the police vehicle continued to look for these people but were not able to track them down.  
 That is what I'm trying to explain, the differences in Dlamini's statements and his explanations in his statements and the difference between that and the statement of Mbatha, caused me as the investigating officer to believe the version of Mbatha rather than the version of Dlamini.  This is however me - as investigating officer, that was my opinion.

MR PIGOU: At what stage did you become aware of the Katiza Cebekhulu statement in which it was alleged that Doctor Asvat had been to the house of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela to examine a very badly injured Stompie Sepei?

MR HESSLINGA: Chair, I am 100% honest, I first became aware of Cebekhulu and his possible involvement in the Asvat case, was when I was the investigating officer in the Goldstone Commission investigations.  There were then newspaper reports that Cebekhulu was in jail in Zambia and that he made these certain claims, that is the first I heard that Cebekhulu could possibly be involved in the Asvat case.
(transcriber's own translation)

MR PIGOU: So, your colleague Senior Superintendent Dempsey didn't make you aware of the information about Doctor Asvat at the time, is that correct?

MR HESSLINGA: I had no knowledge of this.  (transcriber's own translation)

MR PIGOU: Okay.   ...[inaudible] Mr Dlamini talking about the fact that they were tortured by yourself - I believe one of them said, and also by Mr Moodley but before we go into that directly - their specific allegation, I'd like to ask you a more general question about human rights abuses, the use of unconventional methods to extract information at the Protea Murder and Robbery Unit.
 I had the misfortune of reading through several statements at the weekend from the Detainee Parents Support Committee which listed hundreds of allegations of torture at the security branch in Protea.  On a more personal level, I've had quite a lot of experience with murder and robbery units and allegations of torture by murder and robbery units - the use of electric shocks, the use of suffocation methods and so forth.  
 In your experience in the murder and robbery unit - and perhaps I could put this to the three people here, have you had experience of arrested persons being tortured by the methods I've described or any other methods?

MR DEMPSEY: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Director Hesslinga?