Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-08-30

MR LAX: Yes.  But in fact he was more directly involved than one realises, and I think we would certainly want to talk to him at some point to confirm that.  I then want to just briefly turn to the other incident, which happened four days later, where, in a very similar operation to the one in which your brother was killed, the five other people whose names were mentioned by the previous witness, that was Sifiso Nxumalo, Boxer Joseph Mthembu, Nkosinathi Innocent Bruce Thenjwayo, and Themba Khumalo and Jabulani Sibisi, were murdered in a similar fashion, almost identical to that in which your brother and his friends were murdered.  And again de Kock's unit was involved in that, Pienaar was involved in that, and - we are still trying to get hold of the inquest records of that particular case, but I understand it was heard quite soon after the other inquest was completed.

WITNESS:   From my recollection, yes, it was.

MR LAX: Mr Naidu, obviously this has been quite a traumatic experience for your family.  How have your parents coped with it, and how have you coped with it?

WITNESS:   We're still - there again the uncertainty of things.  We're not certain, there are not definite answers to our questions, and we need to know a lot more.  We need for them to come up.  We need to see or to hear what they've got to say, exactly what happened there.  And there again, like you said, you know, we've got two versions of this now, one - the one version we would like to believe it is what it is, and it's the police version, and it's - it's there again this uncertainty what is the truth exactly what happened there.

MR LAX: Mr Naidu, have you been informed by the State in any way that they intend prosecuting any of the people involved in this incident?

WITNESS:   Not at all.  Not at all.  I did - if I could place on record I did remember some time last year, when I heard de Kock was being charged, and a case was being put forward - if I can remember I phoned the Attorney-General in Pretoria and I said to him, "Please, this is who I am, and perhaps if I could just throw some light on de Kock's case, our case as well," and he said, "Well, I am fully aware of that."  He read through the inquest documentation and there's not much, you know, he can see there, but all the same understands how de Kock seemed to have worked, or the way he worked, and that was the last I heard of him - or heard from the - or actually we never heard from the State, it was what I had - when I phoned him.

MR LAX: Ja.  We understand from what you've said today, and from your statement - you've more or less implied it today, but in your statement you said it much more directly - you would like us to investigate this incident in particular, and the other one, and to try and give you a complete picture of what actually happened.

WITNESS:   Definitely.

MR LAX: I just want you to confirm that.

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR LAX: Well, we will do our best to try and do that.  Is there anything else you'd like to add before I hand back to the Chairperson?

WITNESS:   There are a few people who I feel need to be put on record in that - the case of Warrant-Officer Pienaar.  My dad - when they went up to identify the body, and of course we went up on two occasions to identify the body, the first occasion being my mum - my parents couldn't identify Lennie because of the state of the body.  It was just badly decomposing, the refrigeration was non-existent.  And on the second occasion - they came back home, then they went back up to Piet Retief a few hours later, after we told my mum - or reminded her of birthmarks and spots on the body.  And she phoned - then they phoned back to say well, they did identify the body.  And my dad asked Warrant-Officer Pienaar where is the clothes of Lennie, and of course anybody else.  And Lennie always - he was given a gold chain for his 21st birthday, and you know, "Where is the gold chain, and what else did he have on him?"  Well Pienaar just - as a matter of fact just said, "Well, the clothes it's in the bin out there.  We burnt it because of the threat of AIDS.  And there was R300,00 on him, and in any case you all can't have that money because it belonged to the ANC," but it was fine for him to have it I suppose.  "And the gold chain, he didn't have a gold chain on him."  Now, these little things I would like to know what happened to.  These are the things that I feel can give us a good idea of how they were not just ordinary murderers in my opinion, they were also thieves.  And even thieving from dead bodies was something I don't think I can stand to accept at all at any level.

MR LAX: Just for the record, Lennie had about R3 000,00 on him.

WITNESS:   I believe that was ... (intervention)

MR LAX: And that seems quite clear from the evidence so far that we've been able to look at.

WITNESS:   That's what I believe emerged.

MR LAX: And they only admitted to R300,00 being on him, so one wonders what happened to that other money.  Just one other thing I wanted to ask you about, which you indicated in your statement which I overlooked, was the funeral and the sheer pandemonium that the police appear to have wrought at Lennie's funeral.

WITNESS:   It was actually chaotic, it was ridiculous, it was - you couldn't describe it.  And to let out tear-gas on old people, pensioners, and really old - old people coming walking up a hill and there was this tear-gas to meet them as they came up.  You had people running around.  It was unbelievable.  These were the people that Lennie had - did a lot of community work in the area for the aged, and the under-privileged people.  And we couldn't perform any of the burial rites according to Hindu customer.  There was a constant helicopter hovering up all the time on - you know, even when he laid in state at the temple.  And when we moved to the cemetery of course Lennie was declared a restricted person ... (inaudible - end of side A) ... there were others, other people having their funeral services at the cemetery.  They were actually rushed out by gunpoint and told to, you know, finish off their funerals as quick as possible, and they were actually pushed out of the cemetery and the cemetery was locked up then, and then searched, and then only we were allowed to go in.  And it was just 200 people.  There again we - we had a brigadier, I think it was, that came down by helicopter and landed just about a few metres away from the body.  He got out.  He pulled out the flag on the coffin - of course it was a sealed coffin - and even went as far as preventing us - taking a box of matches away from us, which in normal Hindu rituals, especially in ... (inaudible) ... where we light blocks of camphor.

MR LAX: Who was that brigadier?  Do you know who he was?

WITNESS:   I can't remember.  I believe he was at that time the head of the police in - in C R Swarts I would think.

MR LAX: Ja.  Lesli, thanks very much for giving us that story, and I will hand back to the Chairperson.

DR RANDERA: Sorry, Mr Naidu, I want to raise two questions relating to your statement and relating to the ANC.  If we go by the version that all these young MK soldiers were killed by the police it sounds to me as if

DR RANDERA: /there my

DR RANDERA: there may have been a leak somewhere along the line.  Now, you are raising also, as far as the ANC goes, the question of why people were being brought into the country at that time.  Have you made these inquiries with the ANC?