Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — UNKNOWN

MS BRAAM: Yes, I mean, nothing - we didn't ask any more, but the receptionist.  I'll tell you later what I found out now, a month ago, that this guy, you know, this receptionist, worked for them.  You know, he was a double.  He worked for the CIO (?) and for the South Africans.

DR DANIEL: The doctor was there within like a few minutes?

MS BRAAM: Yes, it must have been very quickly.

DR DANIEL: At that time of the night it is unlikely.

MS BRAAM: Yes, and then to leave a bottle, and then I became very - then the doctor left and the fact that he, you know, pressed and, "Ulcers".  Then he said - he explained to the guys that, "Well, she's got the age for it, isn't it?"  And I remember this also, because I felt so insulted.  I was so ... (inaudible) ... always a woman.  I thought later on, you know, "God, you know, going for clothes", you know, and then being, you know, amazing, the guy who lifted my shirt and that he made, you know, this remark about my age.  I'd say, "Idiot, idiot, idiot" ... (inaudible).   And so - so anyway, so then he left.  Now, the camera guy ... (intervention)

DR DANIEL: And he never suggested you go to hospital?
/MS BRAAM

MS BRAAM: No.

DR DANIEL: He said the pills would take care of it?

MS BRAAM: Yes, and he played it down like an ulcer.  It's normal at her age.  This is what he said to the guys, like he was sort of, you know.  Now, he had the wrong guys, because the cameraman had an ulcer himself.  He looked at the pills - these were pills, you know.  He looked at the pills and he said, "This is rubbish.  I've never seen this sort of shit for an ulcer", and he threw them away through the toilet and then - now I remember - and then they made me vomit.  This is now how the thing is and then they gave me the pills to ... (inaudible) ... it.  They thought, you know, it is in my system, it must go out and they were right, because it must have been in my blood.

DR DANIEL: (Inaudible) ... pills?

MS BRAAM: No, no, no, he threw all the pills away through the toilet, because he got very angry this sort of - you know, this camera guy.  He was Dutch, you know.  Don't say, you know, one line a week - no talker - and he must have been irritated by the behaviour of the doctor, you see, in not treating me with respect, and he looked at the pills and he had an ulcer - I think he had an operation even for it, so he looked at it and he said, "I've never seen this sort of rubbish for an ulcer", and also, you know, I mean, ulcers don't come like that.  So, you know, he's not - so they didn't believe it.  So the pills were gone and Jan stayed with me.  They took by turns and they didn't leave me and I just - and I slept.

DR DANIEL: So the pain was subsiding?

MS BRAAM: Yes, yes.  Let's say it would come back - over a day it would get less and less and less, and - I think, personally think that I didn't have that jacket on for a long time, so it - now, so that then after, I think, three or four days I found myself recovered enough and I wanted to go as soon as possible.

DR DANIEL: You didn't think of going to a hospital or to see another doctor?

MS BRAAM: No, no, no, by then I was just - I want to go back to Holland and I'm going to my own doctor and ask him if I've got an ulcer.  When he can't find anything is an ulcer then I'll - what I should have done - I didn't know what sort of a poison it was, I didn't know that it was poison.  Of course, I should have checked my blood then I would have - I mean - French Shikane (?) - but only when we got to the port of French Shikane from the United States I knew this is the symptoms, you know, what is same.

DR DANIEL: What year - what time was the Shikane incident - same time - same period of time?

MS BRAAM: No, that is a year later.

MR DE JONGHE: A bit later.  It was in 1988, I think, or 1989 even.

DR DANIEL: So the pills were supposed to kill her off?

MS BRAAM: Yes, I think I was.  I think I actually ... (intervention)

DR DANIEL: The Dutch cameramen, how long did they stay?

MS BRAAM: They left, I think a bit - or the day before me or the day after me.

DR DANIEL: So they remained close to you through this period?

MS BRAAM: Ja, ja, ja.  Ja, ja, nobody could - I made sure nobody could come to me any more and I didn't leave the room and there was no - and I knew, of course, the reception, no - I knew that for years already never ever to trust anybody at the reception of a hotel where you come frequently.
[Break in recording]

DR DANIEL: So you did not leave the room.

MR DE JONGHE: He knows about chemical warfare, Dieter Gerhardt?

MS BRAAM: He knows about - he knows Neethling very well.  He knows what he was doing in his - so ... (intervention)

MR DE JONGHE: So it would have gone back to Dieter?

MS BRAAM: Dieter.

DR DANIEL: But also wasn't there in - you know, I need to check the cuttings, but wasn't there this - I think he was a coloured guy who worked with Neethling, who was in Zimbabwe.

MS BRAAM: Les Lesier (?), ja.
[Break in recording]

MS BRAAM: I'll get a ... (intervention)

MR DE JONGHE: Yes, I think I have to see Gerhardt.  See him or go - better than phone.

DR DANIEL: Oh, yes.

MR DE JONGHE: But then I need ... (inaudible).

MS BRAAM: Dieter you should see absolutely.

MR DE JONGHE: Dieter must ... [end of recording].