Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-06

MR BERGER: And those police were in their Casspirs, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: How many Casspirs?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would not say exactly how many there were but there were several of them because there were different types of them but really I cannot say exactly how many of these Casspirs were there.

MR BERGER: And the police in the Casspirs could see you and your fellow attackers, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Obviously they saw us because I think they too meant to get into the township but did not.

MR BERGER: And you were all heavily armed, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct, we were all armed.

MR BERGER: And the police let you pass into the township, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Let me explain it as follows.  The police, we actually saw them when we got into the township and we only saw them when we took our direction back from where we came.

MR BRINK: Mr Mthembu, I'm putting it to you that that's not what you've said, your evidence was that as you entered the township, that is when you saw the police for the first time?

CHAIRPERSON: I think he said once he was inside, once he was in Boipatong, that's when he saw the police.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Your evidence is that when you were inside Boipatong ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just estimate how far the police were from Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I can say that they were not far away because if you look at the National Board Factories and Boipatong, it is a distance that may be the same as from this point here to the chairs at the back.  Yes, the chairs at the back, it was not a long distance.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to the very last row of chairs?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, the very same chairs, the ones up there.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you mean upstairs at the back of the hall?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes I mean that one at the upstairs.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, from where you are to the back of the hall?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: 40 - 50 metres?

MR BERGER: 40 - 50 metres yes.

MS PRETORIUS: Yes, I would say that.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And you say these police whilst you were still inside Boipatong, am I correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: What were the police doing, just standing there with their Casspirs?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I saw them standing there with their Casspirs and that was towards the Trek Garage.

MR BERGER: Is it your evidence, Mr Mthembu, that you never went into any house other than the two houses you've already mentioned, is that your evidence?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct, I did not go into any other house because there were people outside, the ones that were fighting, they were in the streets.

MR BERGER: And how many of those people did you stab, the ones who were outside in the street?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As I have explain before, I would not be able to say exactly how many there were, I do not deny the fact that there were some people that I stabbed but I cannot say exactly how many.

MR BERGER: Well why not, Mr Mthembu, I don't understand.
Did you stab a hundred people that you can't recall or did you stab ten or five?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't know how to explain this for you to understand.  Even though I did stab people, I do not deny that, but I don't know exactly how many people I stabbed.  I would not say I stabbed a hundred and tell a lie knowing exactly how many people I stabbed.  I therefore cannot say I stabbed three people or so because we were at a war, in a war situation and therefore I was not in the position to count how many people I stabbed.

MR BERGER: It's correct, is it not, Mr Mthembu, that not one of the attackers was hurt during this operation, am I right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Would you please repeat the question, I have a problem with the earphones, the headphones here.

MR BERGER: Were any of the attackers, any of your comrades injured during this operation?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, if I still remember very well, someone did get injured.

MR BERGER: Who got injured?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: He is now deceased as far as I am concerned.

MR BERGER: Well, he never died in Boipatong, did he?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that's correct, he did not die in Boipatong, he died in another incident.

MR BERGER: What was his name?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I think it was Themba.

MR BERGER: Themba who?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mabode.  Themba Mabode.

MR BERGER: Wasn't Themba Mabode one of your close friends?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: So why did you have such difficulty in remembering his name?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I did not have a problem remembering his name, why are you asking me that question?

MR BERGER: I fact he was your very close friend, was he not?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: He was just friend, not a very close friend.

MR BERGER: How was he injured during the attack on Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: He told me that somebody who was walking next to him injured him with a spear on the hand.

MR BERGER: One of these fellow attackers?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: Let's get back to the people that you stabbed, Mr Mthembu.  The first person that you stabbed that night, can you recall who he or she was?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: It would not be easy for me to remember who that person was because I don't know them.

MR BERGER: Was that person a man or a woman?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: It was a man.

MR BERGER: A young man or an old man?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: He was middle aged so to speak.

MR BERGER: And where was he when you stabbed him?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I found him at the time when he was fleeing, trying to hide himself behind a car in the street.

MR BERGER: Behind a car did you say?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: And what was he wearing at the time, do you recall?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I cannot remember, but yes he had clothes on.

MR BERGER: Did you stab him in the back?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I stabbed him at the back because he was fleeing.

MR BERGER: And did he fall down when you stabbed him?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, he fell down, he fell face down.

MR BERGER: How many times did you stab him?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I stabbed him only once.

MR BERGER: Why only once?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I had to stab him once because I knew that I was not alone in the attack.

MR BERGER: Are you saying that you left him for your comrades who were behind you so that they could finish him off?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Obviously I could not stab him several times all by myself knowing that there were many of us.

MR BERGER: And this man was a comrade, a member of the STU, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would not say whether he was a member of the STU or not because the situation there was such that it is not easy for me to tell the STU members apart from other people.

MR BERGER: You stabbed him, you did not know whether he was a member of the STU's or not, you stabbed him because he might have been a member of an STU, is that what you're saying?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is what I thought.

MR BERGER: That is now one person that you killed, is that correct, or had a hand in killing, is that correct?

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Chairperson, there is no evidence that this person was killed actually, he stabbed him and he fell but there's no evidence that he was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, the witness's evidence if I understood it correctly was that he brought this down with a stab and then left him for the others to finish him off.  It's in that context that I'm saying this one person that you killed.