Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-26

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, I am saying that they would have had no objection if I had eliminated Cecil 
as well.

ADV DE JAGER: Brigadier there was no objection because they gave you a medal for what you had 
done.

UNKNOWN: That is correct Chairperson, and they had no objection that night and the morning when I 
filled them in.

ADV DE JAGER: So they knew what you had done and they knew that you had killed McFadden as well 
and they gave you the 
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ADV DU PLESSIS: 221

UNKNOWN: medal anyway?

UNKNOWN: That is correct Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman may I be permitted to place something on record here.  The evidence which is 
now been elicited, as you understand was not on the notice which Brigadier Schoon received. I can't 
respond to it right now because I don't have any instructions on it. May, if necessary, it be raised again at a 
later stage, Mr Chairman?

UNKNOWN: Well Brigadier Schoon will give evidence at some stage.

UNKNOWN: He will give evidence, yes. I don't think that you need that resolved in order for you to 
consider the amnesty application, so it can conveniently be mentioned later.

UNKNOWN: Yes. Thank you.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, this Cecil was he a high profile activist?

UNKNOWN: Yes, he was Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: No, he said he was a trained terrorist.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes. Brigadier did you and Brigadier Schoon and General Steenkamp know exactly 
who was going to be in the house that night?

UNKNOWN: I do not believe that they would have known who were all in the house.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And the instruction was to eliminate Nyanda but if you had asked during the 
discussion when you were receiving your instructions what happens if there are any other persons or any 
other armed persons in the house what do you think the instruction would have been?

UNKNOWN: The same as the instruction with regards to 
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ADV DU PLESSIS: 222

UNKNOWN: Nyanda.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, would it have been normal for you to execute such an operation and to 
foresee that you were only going to shoot one person or would it have been normal to foresee the fact that 
you would possibly shoot other persons?

UNKNOWN: It would have been normal to foresee that there were possibly more persons who could 
be shot.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Could you see whether McFadden was armed under the blanket or not?

UNKNOWN: No, I could not.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you expect that he would be armed?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Should you not as any normal careful person who has a respect for life have taken 
some steps to see who is in the house before you come to the conclusion that it is normal to foresee that 
other people might be killed? Isn't it normal to take steps to find out who they are?

UNKNOWN: According to the informant it would only have been Nyanda and Cecil in the house and 
our information was that Nyanda was renting that house for his own purposes, so I could not have foreseen 
that McFadden would have been there.

JUDGE WILSON: You could have sent someone to look couldn't you? You were relying on information 
you had been given at Piet Retief, you were now in Manzini, quite a way away.

UNKNOWN: This informant lived in Swaziland not far from this house and according to this informant 
it was Nyanda and Cecil's house.

JUDGE WILSON: So you only discovered from the informant that it was Nyanda and Cecil's house?  Is 
that what you are 
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ADV DU PLESSIS: 223

UNKNOWN: now saying?

UNKNOWN: That is correct, we did not know that there would be other people.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mpshe are there any questions you wish to put.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I do not have question, Mr Chairman, thank you.

UNKNOWN: Yes very well you are excused.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I wonder, could I ask one more question, perhaps it may solve the problem of 
whether I am acting for Steenkamp or not. If I could just ask the Brigadier whether he can give us a 
christian name of the Steenkamp that he is referring to?

UNKNOWN: Certainly - clear that up.

UNKNOWN: The General Steenkamp you refer to is it Francois Steenkamp?

UNKNOWN: No, it is Frans Steenkamp.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Brigadier. The mystery deepens, I do appear for Frans Steenkamp but there is 
no reference to this incident, Mr Chairman.   I will have to follow it up.

UNKNOWN: Very well. The Committee will adjourn and resume at 2.00pm.

UNKNOWN: PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

GAUTENG: 224

UNKNOWN: Mr Mpshe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.    Mr Chairman the next matter on our role is matter no 3, the 
burning of Ezoso(?) House in Mamelodi.  Mr Chairperson the applicants will be Van Vuuren and Hechter 
if I am correct, Mr Chairperson? Van Vuuren Page 87, Hechter Page 302.

UNKNOWN: Yes.
ADV.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairperson, before I hand over to my learned friend, I just want to put this on record 
in as far as the victim is concerned. The victim is in this matter, Mr Chairperson, a Mr Dondsi Khumalo, 
who is a Councellor in this Council, he knew about this matter since last year I have been in 
communication with him. Today during lunch Mr Chairperson, I got him on the cellphone to check 
whether he is on the way to the hearing and he indicated to me that he would not be able to attend the 
hearing he has a meeting in Bloemfontein - actually he was on the way to Bloemfontein but he asked me to 
put it on record that he does not oppose the application for Amnesty as done by the applicants and that 
further to put on record that he did not sustain any injury whatsoever and further that actually the Izoso 
House that was blown by the applicants is not his house, they blew a wrong Izoso house, his was the 
neighbouring Izoso house, so he is not affected, thank you Mr Chairperson.
ADV.

ADV DE JAGER: What about the true victim then, whose house was blown? He suffered injuries not the 
supposed victim?
ADV.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is true, I do not know who the true victims are and if I remember from the applicants 
they stated clearly that nobody was injured save that the Izoso house was blown up and even with him, he 
says it was not his Izoso House - and he does not know to whom did that one belong, it was in sort of a 
Izoso Houses in a cluster form. Thank you.

UNKNOWN: We will hear about it just now. Will somebody tell was what is a "Izoso House"?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson it is one of these pre-fabricated houses, manufactured of wood which one 
can move easily from one place to the other - it can be assembled and disassembled from one place to the 
other and it is 3m x 3m - the one that is involved in this matter - one can get different dimensions.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.
ADV.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairperson, the reason why I gave this, I put this information on record is to indicate 
to the Committee that this will then be one of the matters where only confirmation will be involved by the 
applicants.

UNKNOWN: I see. Very well.
ADV.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I would beg leave to call Capt. Hechter first please. 
225

UNKNOWN: Mr Mpshe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.    Mr Chairman the next matter on our role is matter no 3, the 
burning of Zozo house in Mamelodi.  Mr Chairperson the applicants will be Van Vuuren and Hechter if I 
am correct, Mr Chairman Van Vuuren page 87, Hechter page 302.

UNKNOWN: Just hold it, I'm sorry about this.  Yes, what page.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman van Vuuren it will be page 87, the van Vuuren matter, page 87.

UNKNOWN: Yes.