Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning to you all.  Today we are still proceeding with the amnesty applications of Mr Radebe and Mr Maletsatsi.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair, the witness Mabusa Mhlango that I intended to call in support of the applicant's case, Madam Chair and Committee Members, is not here.

MR LAX: Sorry to interrupt you.  There's something wrong with the sound, it's not coming through on our receivers.  It's going through on the floor but it's not coming through on the receivers.

MS MOLOISANE: There's something wrong with my microphone.
TECHNICAL PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members, I had an interview with the witness.
TECHNICAL PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members, yesterday, that was the 17th, I had an interview with the witness that I intended calling in support of the applicant's case.  The witness in question is Mabusa Mhlongo, who was allegedly the unit commander of the applicant, rather of the unit to which both applicants belonged at the time when the incident that led to this application took place, Madam Chair.  From my interview with Mabusa Mhlongo it transpired, or rather I noticed, that he could not give a logical account of what happened then.  I opined that there is something wrong with his mind, Madam Chair, and I also concluded that he was not in a mental state to can adduce evidence before this Committee.  I therefore request this Committee to give me permission to send him, or to have him sent, to a psychologist or to a psychiatrist for an assessment, regarding his mental state.
	However, I have also made arrangements that the said witness be fetched from his home in Sebokeng so that the Committee Members can also have a look at him, although I intend relying on the psychologist's or psychiatrist's report or assessment in this regard Madam Chair and Committee Members.  I am therefore not calling him to come and testify.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moloisane, can you give an indication when you intend to have him assessed by either a psychologist or a psychiatrist?

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair I have spoken to the ANC's desk who ascertain patients, who is the person in charge of these proceedings at the ANC's desk or office, Madam Chair.  If I have to put it that way, and she will be arriving at any moment from now Madam Chair, and I intend arranging that a psychologist's assessment be done tomorrow.  And I intend to finalise those arrangements before the close of business today.

CHAIRPERSON: We will grant you your request that you have him assessed by either a psychologist or a psychiatrist, but we must stress that in view of the short life-span of the Committee, we would expect a report to be submitted to us within a very reasonable time.  We therefore, without being unreasonable ourselves, must indicate that we would expect such a report to be submitted to our Cape Town office within 21 days from today.

MS MOLOISANE: I will try my best to secure that report within 21 days Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  That would have been your last witness?

MS MOLOISANE: That is correct Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: In respect of the Elsie Mokoena and Hapile Ndumo incident.

MS MOLOISANE: That is correct Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, what is the position from your side?  Do you intend to call any witnesses in respect of the incident we are currently dealing with?

MS THABETHE: Yes Madam Chair.  If the Committee can allow me to call Elsie Mokoena, who I had intended to call as a witness.  She is the victim in this matter.  I had also indicated to the Committee Members that the mother of Hapile Ndumo would like to say something as well, in public, so I would like to call her as well.

CHAIRPERSON: These applications are opposed, are they not?

MS THABETHE: My instructions are that they are opposed Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You may therefore proceed to call the witness Elsie Mokoena.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  I call Elsie Mokoena to come.
Madam Chair may I request the sound technicians to come and put another mike please?

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair the witness will testify in Sotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Elsie, please stand up.  Can you hear me?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Please stand.  Do you swear that the evidence that you will give this Committee will be the truth, the only truth, if that is so, raise your right and say so help me God.

ELSIE MOKOENA: (sworn, states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may sit down.

MR LAX: Ms Moloisane can you just switch off your mike please, thanks.

MS THABETHE: Ms Mokoena can you state your full names for the record please.

ELSIE MOKOENA: Elsie Mandayi Mokoena.

MS THABETHE: Where do you reside?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Sebokeng, Zone 12.

MS THABETHE: With regard to the incident which took place on the 15th of August 1993, did you know John Radebe and Fani Mkhwanazi?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes, I did.

MS THABETHE: Before I come to the actual incident that of day, how old were you on 15th August 1993?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I was 15 years old.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, may I just request that you shift your chair slightly to your left, to enable us to be able to have sight of Ms Mokoena as she gives her evidence.  Yes, maybe that would be ideal, thank you.

MS THABETHE: My question is where did you know Fani Mkhwanazi from?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I know him from Zonto, we grew up together.  I just know him by sight.

MS THABETHE: Where, where did you see him?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Are you referring to John Radebe?

MS THABETHE: Yes.

ELSIE MOKOENA: I used to see him around the township.

MS THABETHE: When, did you know them to be members of the SDU or ANC?  That is John Radebe and Fani Mkhwanazi?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I knew them as members of the ANC.

MS THABETHE: In the tavern, is it correct that John Radebe called you outside, went into the tavern ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: When, when Ms Thabethe?  Advise the witness so that she can give ...(intervention)

MS THABETHE: In the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, she can know which date you want her to give evidence about.

MS THABETHE: On the 15th of August, Mr Mokoena.  Did John go into the tavern and call you outside?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Why did he say he was calling you outside?

ELSIE MOKOENA: He said we should go to the Zone 12 office.

MS THABETHE: What reason did you give for you to go to Zone 12 office?

ELSIE MOKOENA: He told me that they wanted to discuss something with us.

MS THABETHE: Did you ask him what that something was?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I did not ask him.

MS THABETHE: When he told you this were you still inside the tavern, or outside the tavern?

ELSIE MOKOENA: We were outside the tavern.

MS THABETHE: And they what did you say when they said you must go to Zone 12?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I refused.

MS THABETHE: Why did you refuse?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I refused because I thought they were going to rape us.

MS THABETHE: According to the applicants, that is John Radebe and Fani Mkhwanazi's evidence, they allege that they told you that you were wanted by the community and your response was that you knew that you were wanted by the community.  What is your comment to that?

ELSIE MOKOENA: They did not say anything about the community wanting us.  Nothing.

MS THABETHE: Is it true that in Sebokeng there was an IFP area?

ELSIE MOKOENA: There was no IFP area, I only knew it to be in Boipatong where members of the IFP resided.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Interpreter didn't the witness say she knew that to have been in vanderBijl Park and not Boipatong?

INTERPRETER: Apologies Madam Chair.

MS THABETHE: Was there any other IFP area near Sebokeng, where the IFP resided?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes, but not inside the township.  Outside.

MS THABETHE: Where was it?

ELSIE MOKOENA: It was right outside Sebokeng, not inside the township.

MS THABETHE: What was the area called?  Was it in vanderBijl Park?