Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-23

ADV MEMANI: But surely if they needed your co-operation you've said, in respect of logistics and vehicles, they would have to speak to you.

MR TSOMELA: Moreover, the security branch, Chairperson, had their own in actual fact, logistics etc., of which maybe they have fulltime for their operations because they could not at all times come to me and maybe request such logistics.  But my members maybe and the public or the police, maybe could maybe for their shortcomings could have come to me.

ADV MEMANI: But you are now departing from your evidence that it, of course the police would speak to you, security branch would speak to you, and assist with logistics such as giving them vehicles and so on?

MR TSOMELA: That is true yes we have such a shortage, Chairperson, I agree with that.

ADV MEMANI: So they would have spoken to you?

MR TSOMELA: Totally, - not in this incidence Chairperson, I did not - nobody ever came and informed me about this.

ADV MEMANI: Are you suggesting that at some stage 40 to 45 people were arrested and detained at your police station without you becoming aware of that fact?

MR TSOMELA: Even more than that were detained in my cells of which I visited each and every morning during the afternoon and during evening.

ADV MEMANI: I beg your pardon.?

MR TSOMELA: I say, even more than that were detained, happened to be detained at Botshabelo Police Station.

ADV MEMANI: Now, Mr Tsomela, you must have warned about these proceedings and that you're being implicated in the, isn't it?

MR TSOMELA: No, Sir, I have not been warned as I've said and I never took part, as I've said.

ADV MEMANI: You don't understand, I said you must have been warned about these proceedings.

MR TSOMELA: Will you please come again Sir?

ADV MEMANI: I'm saying that you must have been warned about these proceedings.

MR TSOMELA: No, Sir.

ADV MEMANI: How did you come here?

MR TSOMELA: This present residence?

ADV MEMANI: Yes.

MR TSOMELA: Yes I've been warned that I must appear here.

ADV MEMANI: And you were warned last year?  That would be 1996 possible.

MR TSOMELA: '80, no, no, '97 that's last year Sir.

ADV MEMANI: Okay.  Now in all the time you had the opportunity to verify from pocket books and from records books at Botshabelo.

MR TSOMELA: To verify what Sir?

ADV MEMANI: You see, you are here telling us that you don't recall this incident, and I'm saying that one would then have expected that you would go to the police station and try and see if you could see such an incident.

MR TSOMELA: Ja, that is true Sir, I didn't do that but the fact is that no date was given to me as to which particular day, the fact was that it was in 1986 and as a result of that I could not, you know, maybe recall and go to a specific date and look for this particular issue.

ADV MEMANI: But are you sure that you would have been able to locate an entry that would be most, that would resemble the evidence given here, most than the rest.

MR TSOMELA: As far whom is concerned, Sir?

ADV MEMANI: What I'm putting to you is that many people were arrested at Botshabelo.  The numbers varied, the incidents varied and in one way or another you would have been able to see entries which would likely resemble the incident.

MR TSOMELA: As I'm saying Chairperson, I did not go to the file to verify that for the mere fact that I did not have dates etc.

ADV MEMANI: Now I'm putting it to you that you avoided looking at the occurrence books because they would confirm the incident or because you did not want to confirm the incident.

MR TSOMELA: Chairperson, that is not my case but the fact is that I think those pocket books or occurrence books are still available, if the Station Commissioner at present is still keeping them so I think we can collect them at any moment.

ADV MEMANI: Now, did you have any differences with Mr Ngo?

MR TSOMELA: Which Mr Ngo?  I indicated that I don't know Mr Nelson Ngo that we was talking about here.

MR TSOMELA: Now Mr Ngo has got no reason to falsely implicate you and say you were present if you were not present.

MR TSOMELA: Sir, I won't know his attitude, why he has maybe thought that we have done that but the fact is that I was the Station Commissioner at Botshabelo.

ADV MEMANI: Or should we accept his version because you can't recall the incident.

MR TSOMELA: What I'm saying that I don't know Mr Ngo, Sir, and I never participated, I never took part in maiming or torturing people myself.

UNKNOWN: Mr Stander, by the way did you have amongst you as your clients, complainants in respect of this particular incident?

MR STANDER: Unfortunately not, Mr Commissioner.

UNKNOWN: Commissioner, were you given handwritten statement by Mr Ngo, was it shown to you?

MR TSOMELA: The one that he has written himself, yes Sir, I did have a photocopy of that.

UNKNOWN: You see the opening sentence says
"During 1986"
he gives the year 1986 and then as you have already been told, towards the end of his statement there he alleges you took part in the assault and he talks about 40 to 45  people having been detained at your station and so on.   	I would have thought that at least if he indicates the year, and also take into account your very senior position, it would not have been difficult for you to check with the records whether such an incident did take place, the detention of 40 to 45 people at your own police station.

MR TSOMELA: I agree with your point Sir, but as I have indicated, that you know as I thought that during the whole process of the investigation that might have been done.

UNKNOWN: You yourself, didn't it sufficiently trouble you, seeing that you were being implicated, to take the initiative yourself?

MR TSOMELA: Well I didn't do that Sir.

UNKNOWN: Well shouldn't you, I mean the Deputy Commissioner?

MR TSOMELA: As I'm saying Sir, the records are available, they can be collected from the Station Commissioner.

UNKNOWN: What kind of book will show it, will it likely be the occurrence book or what?  I mean if 40, let's say this thing happened, 40 to 45 people are arrested in the township, brought into your police station, they are put together in the yard there and - let's forget the question of assault, would that incident be recorded?

MR TSOMELA: The incident would be recorded for those people who are being detained in the cells.  They will go through the necessary ...[indistinct], maybe there ...[indistinct], and the occurrence book as such at the register of property of the detainees.

UNKNOWN: Oh, yes, there is a suggestion that they were locked up so that they can - well there is a suggestion that they were locked up.

MR TSOMELA: Then I assume that they should have been brought through necessary registers for detainees.

UNKNOWN: And will this OB still be there at Botshabelo or elsewhere or in Pretoria or in Bloemfontein?

MR TSOMELA: No, no, no.  I am talking under correction, the fact is that in terms of the - how do you call it, the stored instructions, I think they must still be there, being kept and held at the Police Station by the current Station Commissioner.

ADV MEMANI: Now, Commissioner, you know Coetzee of Security Branch?

MR TSOMELA: I think I might know him but you know there were many Coetzee's here.  I happen to know Coetzee but at the present moment I know which Coetzee you are talking about, as I'm saying there were a lot of Coetzee's who has gone through the security branch in Bloemfontein.

ADV MEMANI: Now, I'm told that that is the Coetzee who'd make arrangements proceeding the raid with you.

MR TSOMELA: I don't know what Coetzee is that and the fact is that I could not under ...[indistinct] undertake an instruction from Coetzee as such. I was not working directly under him.

ADV MEMANI: You see, it was not instructions as such but you are the person who had to provide personnel such as the riot squad and people who would assist security branch in the arrest.