Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-01

MR HEWITT: All right, and as I understand your role, others obviously brought in the vehicles that had these caches of arms, and you simply knew where the vehicles were going to be parked or arrived at the end stage in Durban, is that right?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Explain to me these keys that you said you had, I think you mentioned duplicate keys?

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean explain, do you want a physical description?

MR HEWITT: Were you given keys by somebody?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes, three duplicate keys, for a bakkie, a van and a kombi.

MR HEWITT: All right, just for those three vehicles?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: So that whenever they come, somebody must have duplicate keys to open, off load and bring the car back.

MR HEWITT: All right, did you acquire those vehicles yourself initially?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: No.

MR HEWITT: Who would have given you the duplicate keys?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: As I said, I was given those duplicate keys by Ronnie Kasrils in Johannesburg.

MR HEWITT: Okay, for all three vehicles?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: All right.  Who would notify you where a particular vehicle was?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: As I said, that my involvement was in initially setting it up, so I only dealt with that, only one delivery.

MR HEWITT: You only ever dealt with one delivery of weapons for intended use by an SDU, once in this entire period?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: No.

MR HEWITT: Pardon?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: No.

MR HEWITT: I am sorry, I don't quite understand your answer.

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I am saying no, except that delivery I have mentioned, the first, initial delivery that was done at Workshop.

MR HEWITT: You had nothing to do with that?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I had something to do, because I knew that it was coming.

MR LAX: Sorry, it is a bit of a misunderstanding here.  What I understand the witness to be saying is that apart from that first delivery, he wasn't involved in any other deliveries.

MR HEWITT: That is what I understood.

MR LAX: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That is so, isn't it Mr Radebe?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Indeed.

MR HEWITT: So it is just the one Workshop delivery if we can call it that, that you were involved in?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: No others?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: No other.

MR HEWITT: So the only time you ever used these duplicate keys to the vehicles, was on that one occasion?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes, to hand them over, the keys.

MR HEWITT: All right.  Let's just deal with that one occasion.  What would you do then in that first occasion, you have the duplicate keys which you got from Kasrils.

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes and I gave it over to Sithole.

MR HEWITT: Who tells you the vehicle is at the Workshop?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Ronnie told me when the vehicle ...

MR HEWITT: Ronnie Kasrils tells you that?  All right, then who do you go to after that?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: So you will ask this gentleman, my comrade here.

MR HEWITT: Sitting on your right, Mr Sithole?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Not that he is on my right politically.

MR HEWITT: No obviously, we are talking about his physical position today in relation to you?
	Mr Sithole sitting on your right hand side today?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: So you would then do what?  You would give the keys to him?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes, I gave him the keys, yes.

MR HEWITT: This is just in this one incident?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: And then he presumably would go to the Workshop and do what was necessary at that end?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: All right, did you ever have any other dealings with Mr Sithole apart from this particular incident, in relation to weaponry?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: As I said, we instructed Mr Sithole to be the one responsible for the operational aspects of the Self Defence Unit in Southern Natal.
	That was a decision that we took as the political leadership of Southern Natal.

MR HEWITT: What does that actually mean Mr Radebe, that he would distribute the weapons to the SDU's and train them or what, I don't understand what his job is or was?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: His job simply put was to make sure that in accordance with the policies of the ANC, we as the ANC and MK, we need to play this supportive role in all those communities that were under fire.

MR HEWITT: Mr Sithole, as far as you know, he was not ever a person who would go and collect the firearms from one of our borders or did you understand that he did that?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I am unaware that Mr Sithole ever went to the borders to collect firearms.  If you have information, you can tell us.

MR HEWITT: No, I am just asking you if it came to your attention that that was so?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: It never came to my attention that Mr Sithole went to the borders.

MR HEWITT: After the Workshop incident, if we can refer to it as that, did you have any further dealings with Mr Sithole after that?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, as I said your question is repeated here, I instructed Sithole to form these structures, so at all material times, I was politically responsible for the actions that they were taking.  He would report to me from time to time about the developments of the implementation of policy positions of the ANC.

MR HEWITT: Yes, but did that mean that he was now the person who had the duplicate keys all the time?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: That is what I am trying to find out.

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Because I handed them over to him.

MR HEWITT: You dropped out of the picture as being the holder of the duplicate keys?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: And Mr Sithole became the person who had the duplicate keys?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: So, did you then on your version totally drop out of the picture as being part of the chain whereby weapons coming from let's assume outside the country, were distributed to these SDU's?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes, I was not involved.

MR HEWITT: You dropped totally out of the chain?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Indeed.

MR HEWITT: But as far as you understood it, Mr Sithole remained an essential link in that chain for distribution of weapons?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Yes, because we appointed him to be in charge of the Self Defence Units in Southern Natal, obviously he continued that role because he never resigned.

MR HEWITT: Okay, no I just want to know to what extent you continued to be involved or dropped out and what role Mr Sithole played thereafter.
	Now, did you at no stage ever see the weapons that were arriving for use by the SDU's?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I never saw the weapons physically.

MR HEWITT: Were you told what weapons would be arriving?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: I have already answered that question that in my knowledge the weapons were AK47, hand grenades, etc.

MR HEWITT: What about rocket launchers?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, I am unaware of the rocket launchers except when I heard that some comrades were arrested in Golela and there were some rocket launchers in that impounding of weapons.
	Previous to that, I am unaware.

MR HEWITT: You, yourself, would you regard rocket launchers as the kind of weapon necessary for self defence or self protection by SDU's?

JEFFREY THAMSANQA RADEBE: Well, it is debatable, it is possible, it could be defensive if one takes into account the might of the then South African Defence Force, they were having armoured vehicles that were roaming our townships and so on, so it could be defensive if looked against the superiority of the then Defence Force in South Africa.