Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-08-04

MR MULLIGAN: Now, as the judge rightly found, he found that there was common purpose, and that was the basis on which you were found guilty, is that correct, that you acted in common purpose with the other people, because the Court at that stage found that you stayed in the car.   That was a lie, isn't that so, the fact that you stayed in the car?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I told the Court that I remained in the car and I did not go to the police station.

MR MULLIGAN: Why did you do that?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I was trying to defend myself, I did not want the Court to find me guilty, that is why I lied.

MR MULLIGAN: But today you agree that you were in full common purpose, you had a joint purpose with Kenneth who shot those two people, with Motepa who arranged the attack, you were in full agreement eventually, you appreciated that people could be killed, you were in full appreciation of what happened and in full accord with what was going to happen, is that correct?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, I do say.

MR MULLIGAN: Chairperson, that's the evidence for the applicant in this matter.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MULLIGAN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mulligan.   Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chair.

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Mr Ross, you stated that you were in a meeting of the SDU's, the street defence unit, do you remember that?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know anything about self defence unit?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, I learnt about self defence unit.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If I put it to you that there was nothing like a street defence unit, SDU stood for self defence unit, what would you say to that?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: The defence units which I explained, you can call them the way you want to call them, either as self defence unit or street defence unit, but I want to explain to you that the meetings which I attended in that COSAS room in Diepkloof, went for street defence unit.   Those were meetings which were co-ordinated by, I would say they were co-ordinated by the students, because they included the committees within the black townships.   You may confuse me with the terminology, but I want to tell you that the meeting which I attended, or the meetings which I attended, were for defending our community.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How were these street defence units formed?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: If I remember well, they were formed in 1990's. Street defence units' purposes mainly was to protect the community against the violence which was caused by other members of the communities, or violence which was politically motivated which happened at that time.   If I remember well, they were formed in 1990.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who formed the units?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: It would be difficult for me to specify individuals who initiated the formation of the street defence units, but I want to tell you about people who were prominent in the formulation of the street defence units.   We called them with their code names, we used to call them Gorbachev and others, those were people who were prominent in the street defence units.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: All right, to assist you a little bit, were you there when the street defence units were formed?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: No sir, I was not present.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When did you join the street defence units?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I started to participate around '91, late 1990 or early 1991.   The problem was that I was not attending the meetings regularly, because there were other things which I used to do, and those meetings were usually held on Tuesday.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you a member of any street defence unit?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who was the chairperson of that street defence unit, if it ever existed?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: It was Comrade Makarov, who was staying in Zone 6.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You knew him very well?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You were staying in the same area?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, while on this, could I just ask a question.   These street defence units, did each street have its own unit, or was there a street defence unit in control of a whole area, which included a number of streets?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That's what I'm saying, that the name would confuse you, the street defence unit should not be taken as literally as it is, it was not only members from the same street, but it was members of a particular community, I would say Diepkloof community would form its street defence unit, because those meetings were attended by various students and other comrades from other schools, there were about five high schools, then you'd find that in a particular meeting there are members from various high schools around Diepkloof.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, continue.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, was this street defence unit aligned to any known political party or organisation then?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, that is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Which one?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: The ANC.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were they formed by the ANC?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: I believe so, because if you look at all those high schools in Diepkloof, during the political violence in the schools, we were called charterists, like for instance high schools in Orlando were part of the Azanian movement and we were falling under COSAS, so any political activity which happened in Diepkloof was under the umbrella of the ANC.   That is why our meetings were attended by people like Comrade Motepa.   Though they did not attend regularly, but they would come and address some problems which we had, or try to find out about our problems, as to whether are we able to do our work.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who was the ANC co-ordinator in your region on these street defence units?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: People who were prominent, I would name Comrade Moses Moseko, Comrade Joe Slovo, who is now late, it's not late Joe Slovo you know... (intervention).

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: My question was very simple, who was the co-ordinator of your units from the ANC?   Look, when ANC establish units in an area, they assigned an cadre to co-ordinate and to assist the people in that area.   Now who was your co-ordinator?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That is Comrade Moses Moseko, whom we used to call Daradi.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now when did the ANC form these street defence units?   I know you are going to go back to 1990, is that so?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: As I've already explained that the SDU was formed in 1990, it was around August in 1990.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If I put to you that defence units, they were not called street defence units, self defence units were formed in 1980 by the ANC on the ground, what will you say to me?  1980's, formed by the UDF under the wing of the ANC, not 1990, what will you say to me?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: During the 1980's the structures we had at that time were street committees, that is the structure which concentrate on the defence of the community, but it was more localised within our streets.   I don't know as to whether do you understand what I'm saying.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Ross, let me help you, let's not waste the committee's valuable time, you don't understand anything you're talking about.   You're correct when you say there were street committees in the 1980's, and the street committees, put together, formed the regional committees, and the regional committees, put together, formed SDU's, self defence units, do you know that, and it was in the 1980's?