Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-08-29

KHOZA MGOJO: We'll come back to that later.  Thandi, relate to us - it looks like at your place the one who was most harassed was you since 1981.  Just start there.  Begin there and relate to us.

WITNESS:   Around 1981 the Special Branch was following me all the time, believing that I had weapons, and also giving way to the children of the country to escape South Africa to go outside of the country, and I had terrorists in my house.

KHOZA MGOJO: Which organisation was that?

WITNESS:   UDF.

KHOZA MGOJO: They used to say you recruit?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's what they used to say, that I am recruiting, meaning I was the one in charge of getting children out and in the country, escaping.

KHOZA MGOJO: Did you know that?

WITNESS:   Yes, I knew it.

KHOZA MGOJO: So you do admit that what they were saying it's true, and you were doing that?

WITNESS:   Yes, I used to do that.  I will import weapons inside and outside the country, but I refuted all that each time they asked me.

KHOZA MGOJO: So they harassed you because of that job of what you were doing, and what happened?

WITNESS:   Yes, it went on up to the time where Chesterville was surrounded by an army.  When this started there were many people who were harassed, tortured.  Some even died.

KHOZA MGOJO: As a result of torture and harassment?

WITNESS:   Yes.

KHOZA MGOJO: Who was doing this?

WITNESS:   At the time the soldiers were doing this.  It went on until it was discovered that one of the high school - there's some rumour, and the students already had started to fight for their rights for education.

KHOZA MGOJO: Did they have their own organisation or something?

WITNESS:   Well, they were youths, a group of youths, at the same time being members of the UDF.

KHOZA MGOJO: What was the name of this organisation?

WITNESS:   It was Khozas, and that was the beginning of Khozas. So the children were called Khozas who were harassed.  Who were harassing those children?   ---   The teachers were harassing the children, and also recruited other students, and the A-Team began.

KHOZA MGOJO: Before you go on just wait there.  The teachers were harassing students at Chesterville High School.  Who was the principal?

WITNESS:   The principal was Agrippa Penser Xebexulu.  His assistant was Teacher Hani, who was transferred from the Transvaal to Natal.

KHOZA MGOJO: Those teachers are still around?

WITNESS:   Yes.

KHOZA MGOJO: Are they still at Chesterville?

WITNESS:   Penser is on pension.  No.  Hani ended up being an inspector of schools.

KHOZA MGOJO: Were those teachers affiliated to any of the organisations perhaps?

WITNESS:   I would request not to say anything, not to disclose any information now.  So the police or soldiers got permission from the teachers to enter the school.

KHOZA MGOJO: Were the teachers aware that there were soldiers on campus, harassing the children?

WITNESS:   Well, I wouldn't know, but every parent believed that.  The community believed that the teachers knew the presence of the army on campus.

KHOZA MGOJO: And the children who were harassed at school were harassed by the police and the Special Branch?

WITNESS:   Yes.

KHOZA MGOJO: Go on.  In 1983 where did Thabani go to?

WITNESS:   Let me say before 1983 there was a time when one bottle store was burned.

KHOZA MGOJO: What year was that?  Do you still remember?

WITNESS:   I think it was beginning of '83, end of 1982.  Towards the end of 1982.  Ntombela of the Special Branch came, and other policemen of C R Swart.  Zawuzi was there, coming from Mayville.

KHOZA MGOJO: Who is Zawuzi?  Is that the police?

WITNESS:   Yes, and Ntombela is a Special Branch.  And many others.  They came with a group of boys and they knocked at my place.  I asked who was that, because it was 12 midnight.  He shouted Zawuzi, and said, "You, Thandi, open.  We know that you are so stubborn.  Just open the door."  I asked, "Why should I open?"  They said, "We are looking for your boy, the one you are working with.  We have his friends with us here outside."  When I got out I found out that there were many boys - from the neighbours, Mabaso, Thipe, Nxumalo, and others from Road Three.  I asked, because I saw they were bleeding, "What's happening?"  They said, "We are being assaulted.  They were asking where are the weapons, the guns."

KHOZA MGOJO: Were those children still attending school?

WITNESS:   Yes, those boys were still attending school.  I said, "Yes, I know that, Zawuzi, when you are here should anything happen or occur to these children you must know that you and I will be faced with each other at the court of law."  He said, "Well, let's hope that you will be still alive then."  I said, "Yes, I am still alive."  Most unfortunately I am still alive and he has died.

KHOZA MGOJO: Why did you pick on Zawuzi?

WITNESS:   Because he was in front.

KHOZA MGOJO: Go on.

WITNESS:   Well, they took the kids with and they left.

KHOZA MGOJO: And yours?

WITNESS:   Yes, and mine.  They came back the following day, and I had to go to work.  I was then working for Dr Malahlela at Clermont surgery.  Just before I got out I saw the boys approaching, coming, and they were bleeding, swollen, and so on.  I said, "Gugu, please take care of this.  I have a medical kit in the house.  And after that get some money and take them to the hospital," and I went to work.  They called me and they said the police again came back and fetched all of them, and I asked, "Where did they take them?"  He said - he told me that they were taken to C R Swart.  This was in 1983.  And I tried all I could to get in touch with Daya Pillay, the attorney.  I reported the whole matter to him.  He said he will follow and see what to do, and also he called me back and said they were released, they were back home.

KHOZA MGOJO: Here at C R Swart who is the head at the station, police station?

WITNESS:   I will say the head was Andy Taylor, because he was the one who was always in front.  After that this thing became a routine, you know the children to be taken, and to be assaulted, and to be brought back home, up until the day when one day Thabani was at school.

KHOZA MGOJO: Did you report this to the Department of Education, because these are schoolchildren we are talking about?

WITNESS:   Mr Mgojo, that's very true what you are saying.  That's your opinion.  I should have done that, but you know very well that the procedure in the country then would fail every effort I will take.

KHOZA MGOJO: So in all the Department of Education and Training did not get to know about this?

WITNESS:   I don't know if they knew or were aware about this.  I did not know whether they know about this or were aware.  Well, we gathered as parents from different locations and see what we could do in light of this problem.  But still the soldiers intervened, so it was confusion.  It went on up to the time when I was going to the market on Saturday.  I heard that Thabani was fighting the Pemba Mpanza.

KHOZA MGOJO: Themba Mpanza?

WITNESS:   No, Pemba Mpanza.  When they were fighting I do not know who defeated the other, but what I know is that Mpanza's mum did come to attack my place.

KHOZA MGOJO: Pemba was at school?

WITNESS:   Yes, they were both at school.

KHOZA MGOJO: So the family came to Chesterville.   Which road?