Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Excuse me?

MR KRUSE: My hands were bleeding, my wrist?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I concede your wrists could have been bleeding, yes.

MR KRUSE: I think it is recorded in the statement by the Magistrate.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am not sure of that Sir.

MR KRUSE: I am telling you it is recorded in the statement by the Magistrate.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR KRUSE: Is it not true that I refused to speak on that night?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Excuse me?

CHAIRPERSON: While Mr Kruse is still putting himself together, can I ask you this.  You said a short while ago that hanging people from the burglar bars, was one of the methods that you used which you forgot to mention to us.	Is that what you said?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, Sir.  The burglar bars as I can remember, was in an office as you came in to our section at the Terrorist Unit.  It as sometimes used as a waiting room.  Not having detention facilities at our Unit, if you had to go away for a while or leave the detainee, it was common to handcuff one hand to the bars or maybe both hands to the bars, but then those persons would have had a chair to sit.

CHAIRPERSON: No, we are not talking about the same thing.  I am talking about hanging a person from the bar in such a way that he will be dangling?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Your Honour, in my case, I don't know if any other tortures took part, but that was and this is the point I am trying to impress to the Committee, no wounds so in other words, to suspend somebody on that would be uncomfortable, but it was not my method of operation.   If I did in the context of the reason that I am here for, I would acknowledge that I did that, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: But if you had to handcuff somebody if you had to go out to the toilet, that is acceptable, there is nothing irregular about that.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: There is nothing?

CHAIRPERSON: There is nothing irregular about that, I should imagine, to handcuff somebody to a burglar bar, sitting on a chair so that you could go out for a while.  I am sure that is acceptable.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I agree with that Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you think you should have told us about it as a way of torture if you never did it as a way of torture?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: A way of torture would be to handcuff a person arms above his head, with his feet either just touching the ground, but any weight on it would then have the weight on his arms.  Then it would be used as a torture method.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you don't understand my question.  My question is why did you think, why did you say earlier on that you forgot to, when you told us about the way people were tortured, why did you say that you forgot also to mention the fact that you used to handcuff people in a particular way if in fact that was never a method to torture people?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That was never a method, until Mr Kruse mentioned it to me now, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: After he mentioned it, it became a torture method?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I would presume it to be a torture method, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand.

ADV DE JAGER: Can I ask the question in Afrikaans.   I put it to you that Mr Kruse said as I understood it, that he was suspended.  And you then said he might have been handcuffed.  Then I asked you is it possible that he was handcuffed in such a way that he was actually hanging, that his feet weren't touching the ground and you said yes.
	Now, what we would like to know from you is, did you in respect of Mr Kruse or any other prisoner, did you suspend them by their arms?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not as far as I can remember.  Not that I can remember.

ADV DE JAGER: Now my problem is, if it happened, why can't you remember it?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: In Mr Kruse's case, it happened once, if he says so and it was not part of my general modus operandi, and that is why I forgot about it.

ADV DE JAGER: Well, it might not have been your modus operandi, but you were present and if you didn't do it, you were at least present when it was being done?  If you accept that it was done?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I can't be any more specific, I can't remember this incident without any further particulars.

ADV DE JAGER: The particulars he gave you were that his wrists were bleeding and that it was also noted by the magistrate before whom he made a statement?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That might have happened, but I am not aware of it.  I can't remember it.

ADV DE JAGER: You said that you received psychiatric treatment?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Who did you consult?  Which Psychologist?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Doctor Kotze.  I went twice.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you only go for treatment at two different occasions or were you under treatment for a period of time?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, for a period of time.

ADV DE JAGER: Did they find anything wrong with your memory?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not as far as I can remember, no.  I was under stress.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Benzien, I appreciate the difficulty in which you are in not remembering the details of the assault that you administered on Mr Kruse.  	To your recollection, how many times did you assault Mr Kruse?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Definitely the once early in the morning, Ma'am.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now, apart from the day you assaulted him whilst you were looking for his passport, you are saying you never had an opportunity to assault him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am sure I would have had an opportunity to assault him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: If you think you had such an opportunity to assault him, did you in fact use that opportunity to assault him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I would have had an opportunity Ma'am.  What I am trying very desperately to tell this Commission, is that where with the rest of the then trained terrorists, in Mr Kruse's episode, I don't think I had very much to do with Mr Kruse and that can possibly be my lack of recollection.I think Mr Kruse could perhaps concede that I had very little to do with him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: He was a high profile activist?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Excuse me?

SISI KHAMPEPE: You have conceded that he was a high profile activist?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, I would concede he was a high profile.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And his arrest was actually pre-planned?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Was pre-planned - I cannot remember the exact procedure, but he was supposed to be walking down a certain road at a certain time.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And who had been authorised by Liebenberg to effect the arrest?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Captain Liebenberg was in charge of the operation.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You were not in charge of the operation?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you know if Mr Liebenberg assaulted him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I honestly cannot remember the arrest that afternoon, Ma'am.  I am of the opinion I was not in that vehicle.

MR KRUSE: I just want to go back to Niclo Pedro, maybe that can refresh your memory.
	In the Forbes trial after Ashley Forbes and Peter Jacobs were arrested, the flow of information was very limited, because there was no link further down, is that correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Could you repeat the question please?

MR KRUSE: After the arrest and interrogation of Ashley Forbes and Peter Jacobs, the flow of information downwards was very limited, because there was no one else to follow up the chain of command, you never arrested anyone else?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct, yes.

MR KRUSE: And to continue that chain, you had to arrest Niclo Pedro, is that not correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR KRUSE: So, that would be a very pertinent arrest, probably more pertinent than my arrest, would it not be so?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.

MR KRUSE: And would you remember what happened to Niclo Pedro at that day at least?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Niclo Pedro was arrested on the border with ...

MR KRUSE: Yasmina Pandy, is it correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, I think, Yasmina was with him.