Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-23

MR BRINK: And that is with the view to discovering if possible whether there has been drunken driving, whether there has been stolen goods, stolen vehicles. That sort of thing. Do you agree?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is correct.

MR BRINK: And it is extremely unusual I suggest for any conventional roadblock member to ask people who they are searching or interrogating about their political affiliations.

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: But that was our task. That was the objective of the roadblock. To question people regarding their political affiliations.

MR BRINK: Yes I go along with that. What I am suggesting to you is that these people would by the very nature of things have been terrified because of the manner in which they were treated. And they would not have volunteered their political affiliations.

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: They did tell us to which party they belonged.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you know when this question was first asked your answer was you had been a member of the CP and then made subsequently a member of the AWB and if anybody asked your political affiliation you would have proudly at once, proudly without hesitation told them that you are a member of the AWB. But the crux of the question which Mr Brink is asking you is if you find yourself at midnight in Soweto surrounded by people in ANC uniform and they ask you what political party do you belong to, would you probably say to them: "I am a member of the AWB"?    Would you say that?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Chairperson I cannot say that with certainty because I have never found myself in such a situation. But I would have probably have said something to that effect.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh are you now uncertain as to how you would have responded?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I have never found myself in a situation like that therefore I do not know how I would respond in a situation like that.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought when this question earlier on was asked to you, I thought your answer was that at all times you would proudly announce yourself as being a member of the AWB? The fact that you are in Soweto, twelve 'o clock midnight surrounded by people in ANC uniform does make some difference? Doesn't it Mr Matthews? Would that make a difference?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: I cannot say with certainty but I believe that I would have said that I belong to the AWB or the CP.

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Brink is putting it to you in that context of my explanation to you. He is putting it to you that people finding themselves around twelve 'o clock midnight, surrounded by people in AWB uniform or AWB insignia, and if those people happen to be members of the ANC he is saying it is unlikely that they would just voluntarily at once admit that they are ANC members. Even of they are. That is what he is saying to you. And he is saying what you are telling us that they voluntarily, without any problem, or not voluntarily but they just immediately admitted that they were ANC members. He is putting it to you that it is unlikely that would have happened. That is what he is saying. That is the crux of his question.

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Chairperson, Mr Kloppers was walking behind the people while Martin was questioning them. And Commandant Kloppers would hit those people who were responding to the questions that were asked and they answered that they were in fact members of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Well I put to you Mr Matthews that would have been extremely unlikely indeed.

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is your perspective but that is not how I see it.

MR BRINK: Right Exhibit B which you have put in, this poster or placard calling for your release, can you tell the Committee again, if you have not already who compiled it or who was behind it?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Mr Terreblanche, the leader of the AWB as well as General Jappie Oelofse, who was involved in the fundraising for the printing of the poster.

MR BRINK: Yes so Mr Eugene Terreblanche was the main person behind this placard? It was his idea was it according to your (...indistinct)?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: At various occasions he said that he wanted to get us out of prison and that he would do anything to achieve this. He printed the posters to demand our release.

MR BRINK: Yes and he did that presumably because he approved of your conduct on that particular night?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is correct.

MR BRINK: And I presume that Mr Terreblanche will be coming to give evidence on your behalf to confirm this?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Whether he would be man enough to do that I cannot say but indeed it is true that after the time he visited us numerous times to congratulate us with what we had done and to express his approval of our conduct.

MR BRINK: I am talking about these hearings MR Matthews. Have you been directly or indirectly in touch with Mr Terreblanche about your application?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: You would have to ask my legal team about that. I cannot answer that question. I have been in prison, I do not have free access to him and I cannot see him when I want to.

MR BRINK: I appreciate that. I appreciate your situation. Did you ask when you spoke to your legal representatives about Exhibit B, that is the placard, did you ask them to interview Eugene Terreblanche and possibly get him to come to your hearing? To confirm what you have told the Committee about his approval?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Chairperson on the 7th of last month Mr Terreblanche held a meeting during which he said that he would accept the responsibility and accountability for the deeds which had been committed before the April elections. And furthermore he said that he would issue a press release and after that on the 8th it was on the news. And I would have expected from him as a leader of the AWB to testify on our behalf.

MR BRINK: Thank you?

MR BRINK: .

CHAIRPERSON: What is the answer? You said you did not tell your lawyers to go and interview him or did you?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Yes we suggested this but we do not know whether they did it. I do not know whether he will.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Matthews you testified that the main purpose of your action was to stop the election, is that correct?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: And before this incident occurred what were your expectations? What would your organisation do to stop the elections?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: The AWB would establish chaos in the country. People panicked before the elections so that the elections do not happen. Several bombs exploded before the elections and just afterwards. And this was the acts of AWB members and we thought that it would get worse but it did not happen. But we wanted to have the country in a state of chaos.

ADV BOSMAN: But you said that you primarily expected bomb explosions?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Not just bomb explosions. We thought that on this specific evening just more than our group would go out and we were under the impression that the whole AWB would attack the same evening.

ADV BOSMAN: Have you expected that the people would just murder around the country?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: And before the signal was given Mr Martin testified that a core group met and they discussed whether this was the correct target to identify, were you part of that group?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Yes I was.

ADV BOSMAN: You also saw this as the target?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Mr Matthews can you remember that where we talked about you need to have the courage to do something? Where did that happen?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: At the flat of Mr Visser.

MR MALAN: Who said this?

PETRUS JOHANNES MATTHEWS: Mr Kloppers said so.

MR MALAN: And what was said? Courage for what?