Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-25

GAUTENG: 93
the evidence of their account and the extent of their participation in whatever they are applying amnesty 
for.
	It may be that if we can avoid a repetition of hearing evidence, in other words if we can avoid 
calling a man simply because his name is mentioned and he is given notice in terms of Section 19(4), for 
him to come here and respond to what was said yesterday about him, and then find out that he has made an 
application for amnesty and he will be repeating what he said then, one certainly wants to avoid that.  
	You understand the time constraints within which this Committee is functioning.  We are always 
looking for ways of streamlining procedures and it would seem that if you furnish this document with what 
your clients have to comment on and in what matters they are implicated in, it will facilitate matters and 
that document should be handed to counsel for the applicants.
	Now we understand you are telling us that your clients do not object to the applications for 
amnesty by the applicants.  That is a matter of some importance.  It is a question of hearing their version of 
what is being said and we will have an open mind in that regard and I can assure you on behalf of the 
Committee, that we will do so.

JUDGE WILSON: ;	Can I add something Mr Visser that I think may be of assistance.  I don't know 
how many of your clients are policemen or army officers, but ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I can answer the question immediately, 80 of them are policemen and one is 
an ex-Minister of Police.

JUDGE WILSON: It would be much easier to identify them if you could also give ranks, so when 
somebody talks about 
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<UNKNOWN>: Captain Coetzee, because you've got about five different Coetzee's, if you could put the ranks onto the list, 
I think it would make it easier for Mr Mpshe and others to identify.

MR VISSER: We hear what you say Mr Chairman, but there is a problem with that and that is the 
changing of the ranks, but we will do it anyway as near as possible.  We can identify them.  
	May we accept then that for as far as our clients have been implicated here today, you will 
appreciate that obviously we have no instructions on that, we will not forego any rights by asking you to 
allow whatever our reaction is going to be to stand down to a later date?

HASSAN MALL: Quite right.

MR VISSER: May I also add Mr Chairman, you've suggested it and we have already done that, we 
have also circulated these affidavits which we spoke about earlier in which we
say what is admitted and what is denied to the applicants' legal representatives.	The reason for that is 
that they might, with that knowledge, be able even from their side to shorten proceedings by perhaps 
avoiding disputes or cutting out disputes where it is possible.  
	May it please you, thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Visser, as far as the affidavits that you've given to the other people, if you intend that 
they should be part of our material to be considered, we will be glad to receive it ourselves so if you could 
hand it into the Commission, if you consider that to be necessary?
	As far as the evidence given this morning, could I say that insofar as the video's have been 
confirmed under oath, as far as I am concerned that would be considered as evidence, the mere showing of 
the video with a lot of faces 
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MR VISSER: 94

<UNKNOWN>: appearing thereon, wouldn't as far as we are concerned, implicate those persons except as far as they've in 
fact implicated by this person giving evidence now.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Dealing with the last point that certainly accords with our view 
of the law and we are thankful for that direction which you have given.  
	As far as handing up the affidavits to you, we didn't mention it because we thought it spoke for 
itself, the whole intention of the affidavits would be for your information, for your consumption, but we 
will also make it available to the legal representatives of the applicants.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Yes, of course we will.

ADV DE JAGER: Sisi?

MR VISSER: May I say one last thing.  General Johan van
der Merwe, the issue which we spoke about yesterday, I am hoping that I won't have to speak again today, 
so while it is my turn, while I've been given a turn, I wish to put it all in - he will be available on Thursday 
the 27th for Mr Currin to put his questions to him.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Visser, would you have any objection in making those affidavits available to legal 
representatives of victims or the relatives of the deceased in respect of which the applicants are applying for 
amnesty?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may we respond this way.  Obviously we would have a practical problem, 
knowing who these people are, what we would say with respect Mr Chairman, and my attorney can stop 
me if I am wrong, is that we would have no objection if Mr Mpshe imparted that 
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<UNKNOWN>: information to - may I just take an instruction on that?  Yes, of course the practical problem is also that as 
we are sitting here we still don't really know what is going to develop so that we can't tell you now that we 
are going to give you affidavits of 81 people, we will have to see what is alleged against them and in fact 
for Schoon we had an affidavit here this morning, which has now become irrelevant because of some of the 
evidence that had been given here, so at the time when Mr Mpshe gets it, it will hopefully be in its semi or 
final form and at that stage we would have no objection to him imparting that information.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.  We think that that is an imminently sensible way of doing it.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Yes?

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Visser, only another practicality.  We haven't been supplied with the ranks, but 
would you say that you are representing all the Generals in the Security police?

MR VISSER: Not even close, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Because the trouble we've got is that there was a reference to the Generals in the 
Security police would have known, and we can't give notices to people we don't know.

MR VISSER: I was listening to the evidence and that very problem struck me Mr Chairman.  I was saying 
to myself that if I had to cross-examine now I would have to ask who were these Generals, but I didn't want 
to interfere, but we have that problem, but we certainly don't act for all the Generals, no.  You will see from 
the names, although the ranks are not there, from the list you will, I think Mr 
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<UNKNOWN>: Chairman with respect, you will be able to identify the Generals.  We are talking about General Johan 
Coetzee, General Johan van der Merwe - may I just take instructions?
	My attorney suggests in order to attempt to assist, if you feel that there are Generals which you 
would like to send Section 19(4) notices to, perhaps to send him a copy of that notice and he might be able, 
or he would probably be able to locate that person and deliver that notice on behalf of the Committee to 
them, which may circumvent that problem Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

MR VISSER: ;	Other than that, I am not sure whether we can be of much assistance in that regard.  
Alright, thank you very much.