Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-21

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: The relationship between these two organisations in neighbouring areas, was very poor, to such an extent that one group would be driven out of the area.  With regards to Amadiqwe, the IFP was driven out and they all left to live at Mzyasafi.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLOHLANYE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Malan, do you have any questions to put to Mr Cele?

MR MALAN: Please Chair.  I just want to have clarity on this, earlier in your - I am not sure whether it was under cross-examination - you said that you were told that Amos and Nococanya told the people that they could find the hand and arm with you.  Is my note correct, the hand or arm, that you had it?  In other words the inference that I draw is that you were told that Amos and Nococanya informed them that you killed Martin?  Is that correct, were you so informed?

CHAIRPERSON: It was in cross-examination?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: If Amos was indeed party to accusing you, why would it have been wrong to kill Amos?  Shouldn't he then also have been killed?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I was asked, I was asked when Dudu was killed, did I see it or was it correct for Amos to be killed as well.

MR MALAN: Yes, I think you said no, it was wrong for Amos to be killed?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: But yet Amos accused you of having killed Martin?  Wasn't that your evidence in cross-examination?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: At that time, when we questioned them, we started with Diana and Nococanya and they denied knowledge of these people.  When that information came that Amos and Nococanya had allegedly told these people that they could find this with me, it then became very unclear as to what was going on.

MR MALAN: If I may just put a few questions to summarise for my own understanding, your evidence is that you have no knowledge of Martin or Nococanya having been members of the IFP, you have no such knowledge?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: That is true.

MR MALAN: As far as you were concerned, they were not of the opposition group?  They were not the enemy?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Whose enemy?

MR MALAN: The ANC's enemy?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I did not know anything with regards to Nococanya.

MR MALAN: Then the second piece of information is that you were told that this group which Dudu brought, Dudu was Martin's sister, and according to you Dudu shouted asking you for Martin's arm, that this group wanted to attack you?  Is that correct?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I did not say that Dudu shouted.

MR MALAN: Well, sorry, but the group came and the group shouted to you that they wanted the arm.  The information was that this group came to revenge Martin's death and accusing you, wanting to attack and kill you, that was your information, is that correct?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, when they asked who was Thulani and I showed myself, the person who then directed himself to me said he was coming to fetch Martin's hand.

MR MALAN: Yes.  But there was no indication that this was a reprisal from the IFP on ANC, politics at that stage, did not enter the question?  It was simply a group led by Martin's sister, brought there by Martin's sister, that you say wanted revenge for Martin's death and accusing you?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: At that time, I regarded it as a political matter because if they had really come with regards to Martin's issue, they would have been at Nococanya's place, but they were instead at a house which I knew to belong to people who were IFP members.

MR MALAN: These IFP members, was that Amos?  You say Amos was an IFP member?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: And he was your grandfather?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, he was.

MR MALAN: And he lived in the same area where Nococanya lived?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, but not the same kraal.

MR MALAN: Yes.   But it was quiet, there was no conflict, so he had no conflict agenda, Amos was not looking for fights with the ANC?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: At that time, before this incident, there was no violence in the area.  Although there was such violence in neighbouring areas.

MR MALAN: But in that area there was no political conflict?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: At the time, no.

MR MALAN: This group of five, the marshals of which you were elected leader, that group also constituted the Court, the tribunal?  You were also the tribunal, is that correct?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I was not a marshall.

MR MALAN: But you patrolled, this group of five that you told us about of which you were the leader, you were patrolling the area and you were responsible for the safety of the people and to keep the criminals at bay, you had the "People's Court" up the hills and you were, this Court, this tribunal, you referred to it as a tribunal?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Was that Court or tribunal Chaired by yourself as the leader of this group?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No.

MR MALAN: Who was the Chairperson of this tribunal?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: The Chairperson was elected at that particular time.   Anybody who was present, would Chair such a tribunal, but after all the discussions, it was the committee, the structure that made a decision.

CHAIRPERSON: What you are basically saying is that the tribunal which has been alluded to by my colleague and which you have testified to as having been a "People's Court", would be Chaired by different people on different occasions, there wasn't a standing committee which would be responsible for conducting proceedings?  This is how I understood the "People's Court" to be operating myself?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but that you belonged to a structure to which you were a leader, you were a leader, of which you were a leader?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: That is where I am still confused, because I understood you to be taking these people up the hills to the place where you said you usually conducted the "People's Court"?  Is that correct?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Also at this place, you put certain questions to these people?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Who else put questions to these people?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: There were many people who asked questions, I would just like to explain, on the day of this incident, this was the first occurrence, it was unlike any other meeting we had had before.   As they were being asked questions, some people were even impatient with the process of questioning them, because people were not sure whether these were IFP or Senora's who had come to commence their activities again.  There were many questions that were put to them.

MR MALAN: Who decided the punishment?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: It was the structure.

MR MALAN: That structure, is that structure the structure that you were the leader of?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: May I on a point of clarity, when you say the structure, are you talking about the "People's Court" or are you talking about something else as having been responsible for taking a decision of what kind of punishment to meet out to the people who appeared before you?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I am referring to the people who made the decision, that is the group who would step aside after all the questions had been asked and they would make a decision on what punishment should be meted out.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be the structure of which you were the leader?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: You see, that is really what I understood you to have been saying to us, broadly people were asking questions, but the tribunal, the people making the decision, was the same structure that you were the leader of?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.