Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR DE VILLIERS: Mr Chairman I suppose we will still behere at 11 o'clock but we would also apply for a postponementof our client's testimony on the same basis that we did not haveenough time to prepare and also to
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MR DE VILLIERS 241 ADDRESS
obtain information of the testimony and so forth, and then
to apply to the Committee to give the testimony at a later stage.  We would also apply with Mr Nieuwoudt it seems for a postponement.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think it would be appropriate for usto consider this application, your application for postponement,your application for postponement, in conjunction with Mr Nieuwoudt'sapplication.

MR DE VILLIERS: As the Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr De Villiers do you possibly have the addressor telephone number of Mr Nieuwoudt's attorney?

MR DE VILLIERS: We do have his telephone number whichwe can make available to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: We will ask one of the secretaries to assistyou in this regard, could we phone and determine whether he hasin fact left and is on his way here or what the state of affairsmight be?

MR DE VILLIERS: We will do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Will the evidence be led into the incidentwhich has been described at the Pepco 3, is something which wewill turn to a little later when Mr Nieuwoudt's representativeis here.   That being so Mr Mpshe, can we proceed to some otheraspect of the hearing?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : (Inaudible).

MR: (Inaudible no microphone)...have madeapplication for amnesty in the (inaudible) matter, that is W/O Van Vuuren and Captain Van Vuuren...(inaudible)...as witness.....(inaudible).  As I understood from our discussion in chambers Mr Chairmanand please if I am not correct then I would like (rest of addressinaudible).
1. MR /...
MR DU PLESSIS 242 J J VAN VUUREN
MR         (?):: The interpreters are unable to providethe service since the current mike is not available to the soundsystem.   The English interpreting service will not be availablesince the current mike is not accessible to the interpreters.  It is now available, would you please start?
JOHANNES JACOBUS VAN VUUREN (ss)
EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS

<UNKNOWN>: Would you please start by explaining exactlyhow you were approached with regard to this particular instruction?

ANSWER: Should I begin with my story?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes you may and I'm going to ask you particularquestions.

ANSWER: Captain Hechter and myself co-operated, we wereattached to the Security Branch, Pretoria, Northern Transvaal.  Captain Hechter informed me that myself, him and Mamasela aswell as Col Flip Loots had to eliminate Gerry Thibedi as he hadbeen identified as an ANC activist.

<UNKNOWN>: Could you stop there Mr Van Vuuren.   Couldyou give us reasons or would you know why Col Loots gave you thisinstruction?

ANSWER: I can remember vaguely that Mr Thibedi was ahigh profile activist involved with consumer boycotts where peoplehad to eat cooking oil and raw chickens and that this incitedthe youth to become involved in arson etc., that's vaguely whatI remember.

<UNKNOWN>: Who exactly made the decision to eliminateThibedi?

ANSWER: I would believe that this was a general decisionby General Victor which he communicated to Captain Hechter.

<UNKNOWN>: Fine, where did you obtain the informationwith
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MR DU PLESSIS 243 J J VAN VUUREN
regard to the exact address of Thibedi?

ANSWER: If I remember correctly Col Flip Loots providedus with this address as well as the related information.

<UNKNOWN>: What kind of place was this?

ANSWER: If I understood it correctly it was a kind ofsafehouse or a hiding place of Mr Thibedi's.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Van Vuuren, was there information with regardto anyone else who might have been in this house, available toyou?

ANSWER: Not as far as I can remember.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Van Vuuren had there been any attempts byyourself and Captain Hechter to obtain additional informationwith regard to Mr Thibedi, was it necessary under those circumstances?

ANSWER: No it was unnecessary.

<UNKNOWN>: Could you continue then reading at the secondparagraph?
ANSWER:
  "The operation was under the instructions of Col Lootswho said that he had discussed the matter with Brigadier Cronje.  Myself, Captain Hechter, Col Loots and Mamasela then startedplanning.   Hechter and myself put together an explosive devicewhile Mamasela was in the office with us, this was in my and Hechter'soffice."

<UNKNOWN>: Could you stop there please.   What kind ofexplosive device would this have been?

ANSWER: If I remember correctly it would have been acoffee tin which we filled with bentolite(?) explosives.

<UNKNOWN>: Can you continue?
ANSWER:
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MR DU PLESSIS 244 J J VAN VUUREN
  "We then drove with the Security Branch minibus to Thibedi'shome which was somewhere in Bophutatswana or north of SoshunguweI cannot remember exactly where.   About a kilometre from thehouse, we stopped, Loots was the driver at that time, while Icannot remember it might be possible that Danny Glehlale or HendrikMakaba might have been present...."

<UNKNOWN>: Could you stop there.   Is Danny Glehlale,is there another name for this person?

ANSWER: He was also referred to as "slang"or "snake".

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Van Vuuren who else were in this vehicleat that time?

ANSWER: As far as I can remember it was myself, Sgt Mamasela,Col Loots and Captain Hechter.

<UNKNOWN>: Of course it is possible that Glehlale or Makabamight have been present but you cannot remember?

ANSWER: It is possible yes.

<UNKNOWN>: How were you dressed?

ANSWER: Normally I wore a denim slacks and a jacket andwe had gloves on as well as masks.

<UNKNOWN>: In what way were you armed?

ANSWER: We had AK-47 rifles, Mamasela, myself and CaptainHechter carried the explosive device.

<UNKNOWN>: When you left was this in the day or the nighttime?

ANSWER: It was in the night, during the night.

<UNKNOWN>: Why would you have been armed with AK-47 rifles?

ANSWER: These were arms of communist origin and if itwas necessary for us to shoot someone then they couldn't indicatethat it could have been us.
1.

<UNKNOWN>: /...
MR DU PLESSIS 245 J J VAN VUUREN

<UNKNOWN>: Could you continue?
ANSWER:
  "Hechter, myself and Mamasela then continued on foot whileLoots stayed in the vehicle.   Mamasela indicated the vehicleto us.   We had our faces hidden and I was carrying an AK-47.  Hechter carried the bomb.   I broke the window and Hechter threwthe bomb into the house."

<UNKNOWN>: Can you remember what kind of room you wouldhave shot the, or broken the window of?

ANSWER: No I cannot remember.

<UNKNOWN>: What kind of house would it have been?

ANSWER: It was a sort of a zinc house.

<UNKNOWN>: What would the size of the house have beenroughly?

ANSWER: It's difficult to remember, maybe 5 x 5 or 5x 8 metres, I cannot remember exactly.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you know whether there was anyone presentin the house?

ANSWER: I thought that Mr Thibedi was in the house.

<UNKNOWN>: Why did you think so?

ANSWER: Because his vehicle was parked close to the house.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you take any other further steps beforebreaking the window and throwing the bomb into the house, didyou do anything else?

ANSWER: We lit the bomb.

<UNKNOWN>: Could you continue?
ANSWER:
  "We ran back to the kombi, the bomb took about five to10 seconds to explode.   About 50-100 metres from the house thebomb exploded.   Our
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MR DU PLESSIS 246 J J VAN VUUREN
information was that Mr Thibedi was involved as an ANC activistwith cases where people were forced to eat raw products purchasedat shops and to drink such products and that inspired people tocommit arson, intimidate people and make petrol bombs.   It wasnecessary to eliminate Thibedi because he created a lot of problemsand because he was also involved with Cosatu and was second-in-commandto Donsie(?) Kumalo in this area."

<UNKNOWN>: Was there a report after this incident?

ANSWER: I don't know.