Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-10

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: The police who were in there I do not know their names.  That is the first point.  When Mr Stander asked me, he asked me whether I would say it was him or not.  I said, I could say it might be him, I never said it was him.

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, let me make it perfectly clear, I am not criticising you at all.  I am just placing on record what the true facts are as I understand them to be and that is that Mr Ramolefe, who a Constable in the Riot Squad, shot him and he shot him with what is generally known as a "stopper geweer", a stopper gun, and that is a gun that is adapted to fire both these thick rubber bullets as well as gas cylinders.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: The knowledge that I have that the person who shot Matthew, shot himself also.

MR VISSER: Yes, indeed, that is correct.  Those are the facts.  He committed suicide, because of this incident, I am told.  He committed suicide, yes.  There was a claim, a civil claim by Mr Matthew Mzuzwana which was brought in the Bloemfontein Supreme Court, as it was at the time, and on the merits of the matter Judge van Koller found in favour of Matthew, that he was entitled to damages.  You want to make any comment on that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I know.  They, he was awarded damages. That was awarded to him because all the facts were not stated.  We right away there.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: If we were all, as policemen, most of the policemen would have been imprisoned.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Motsamai.  The only point, really, is this.  During that civil case it was common cause, that means there was no dispute, between the plaintiffs and the defendants that Constable Ramolefe shot Matthew.  That is at page three of the judgement, Mr Chairman.  That, those documents were handed to me by Mr Brink, kindly, and they are in a bundle which is available to the Committee.
	Would this be a convenient time?

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn till quarter to two.
HEARING ADJOURNS

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: (Still under oath).
MR MEMANI OBJECTS

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, before Mr Visser proceeds, during the lunch adjournment I got instructions that the evidence of Mr Ngo related to Jani Mohapi and so far he has indicated that Mr Motsamai and he did not implicate Mr Motsamai in the bombing of the, burning of the house of the car of Elia Mohapi and City Mzuzwana.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I did not quite get that.  Could you tell us, say it again?

ADV MEMANI: That his evidence only implicated Mr Motsamai in so far as the house of Jani Mohapi and he did not implicate Mr Motsamai on Elia Mohapi.  It seems then that this is a matter which ought to be cleared by reference to the record.  I hope, perhaps, the recorders will be able to clarify the matter for us tomorrow morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was this in his evidence?

ADV MEMANI: Unfortunately, my notes do not assist me in that regard and I have been unable to contact Mr Thembu who might have a relevant note.

MR VISSER: I think if I may be of assistance, Mr Chairman.  Mr Ngo was previously questioned about the Venter incident and the Papie incident, J J incident, and the White Mohapi, but on record you will not find any reference to Elia Mohapi and Jani Mohapi's motor car.  That occurred last week during his evidence in cross-examination.  So, that is why we have been looking in vain for a, for the passage in the record.  It does not exist in the record.  It will be in your notes.

CHAIRPERSON: That is what I am trying to find (microphone not on).

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I may read to you the note of my attorney who keeps better notes than I do, I may add.  He says under the heading,
"Elia Mohapi.  The same people ...",
the question was,
"... were the same people involved in the attack on ...",
words to the effect of,
"... attack on Jani Mohapi's car as were, as was the case with Elia Mohapi and he said we were working as a team.  It was the same people.  Motsamai, he himself, threw nothing.  I did it.  Ngo says, I did it.  Motsamai threw nothing. I did it.  He knew what we were doing ...",
that would be Motsamai,
"... the problem with Mohapi is a problem of the SAP not to me personally ..."
some, words to that effect, but the remaining impression was, we specifically asked him are you saying it is the same people and he said yes.

ADV MEMANI: If that is the case, doesn't then the note  tally with the, with what he stated at the, at paragraph (d).  The emphasis is on the team rather than his specific involvement at a particular time of Mr Motsamai.

CHAIRPERSON: He says that Jani Mohapi, he was present when Motsamai got the tyre and filled it with paper.

ADV MEMANI: That is in order, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Which is then active participation. It is an active participation in the attack on Jani Mohapi's vehicle and then he said that the same people were involved in the attack on Elia Mohapi.

ADV MEMANI: Yes, he then (intervention) ...

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on) while me and, Motsamai was in the car.  So, he does directly involve, as it was put to him.  In his evidence itself he directly involves Motsamai in both incidents and he did not mention him, was that your point, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: The point was simply that Motsamai is directly involved by Ngo in an, in incidents where Motsamai has told you nothing about it nor has he applied for amnesty in regard thereto.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on). Thank you.

MR VISSER: And what is more is he says he knows nothing about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on please.

MR VISSER: (cont)
	Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Just to round off the issue of the shooting of Matthew Mzuzwana.  Did I hear you correctly that you gave evidence to say that he was shot with a teargas gun?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, it seems it was a teargas gun.  When he fell on the ground there was smoke on him.

MR VISSER: You see, that is why I am asking you that, because it was, in fact, a teargas gun, but it could also fire rubber bullets, we know that, but is your impression or your recollection of the incident, that he was actually shot with a teargas canister.  Is that your recollection?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I would not say it was a teargas canister.  It was the teargas gun, but after the shooting many people were shooting with teargas so the place was full of smoke and where he was lying there was full of smoke.  So, that is why I thought it was a teargas gun and a teargas canister.

MR VISSER: All right.  Well, just for the record, it seems to have been common cause that he was actually shot with a rubber bullet, but not much turns on that.  You then, lastly, in regard to this incident, said that Shaw and Coetzee told you, apparently you and Mamome, that they will cover up the case for you.  Do you remember that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so.

MR VISSER: Yes.  I will leave the rest for argument, Mr Chairman.  We come now to the item which you describe, at page 147, in your paragraph eight, that is the petrol bombing of the house of City Mzuzwana.  Not his parents house, his own.  Again, you told us that you received instructions from Coetzee and Shaw.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so.

MR VISSER: Because City, after his release from detention, was very problematic in that he arranged meetings everywhere.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so.

MR VISSER: And then Mamome and yourself had to do something, but  (intervention) ...

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so.

MR VISSER: ... according to my notes you did not tell us what exactly the instructions were that you had to carry out and if you do, please forgive me, and tell us again.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I gave the explanation that we were supposed to go and burn there.  We should go and burn at City Mzuzwana's place.