Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-30

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry that we are late in starting this morning.  We were told that the victims had not arrived.  We were subsequently told that some of the victims had arrived, but that others, including their leader, was on their way, were on their way here.  There was also some confusion as to whether they wish to be legally represented and had made arrangements to that effect.  Can anyone tell me whether the victims who intend to be present are, in fact, present here today?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I am told only two is present.

MR WILLS: They have not got their headphones.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I will repeat what I said in chambers, that two is here and the two that is here informed us that the rest will be coming with their leader.  The arrangement was that their leader will meet all of them here.  So these came before the others could arrive, but they are on their way.

CHAIRPERSON: The trouble is that the notification that was given, as I understand it, was that the hearing would commence at nine o' clock.  It is now a quarter to, 20 minutes to 11.  There seems to be no certainty that this leader or the others are, in fact, going to be here.  They have made no attempt, as far as I know, to communicate with anyone responsible for the organisation of this hearing, to explain that they have been delayed.  Do you know where they were coming from?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: They come from Richmond.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that is, what, 40km, 50km from here.  If there had been a breakdown they would certainly have been able to get alternative transport by now.  It seems to me, subject to what anyone may have to say, that we should commence this hearing.  I see nods from the legal representative of the applicants and from the leader of evidence.

MR WILLS: I am ready to proceed Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: If they arrive later we will adjourn for a short while while an explanation can be given to them of the evidence that has been led.  Very well.  Could you, where is the lady, she is disappearing again.  The lady who spoke to you, Mr Mpshe.  Could you ask her to please ask the two victims who are here if they heard and understood what I said?

INTERPRETER: Yes, Sir, they said they did understand everything.

CHAIRPERSON: And are they happy with that arrangement, they appear to be.  Could you interpret to, I see he has got his head.

INTERPRETER: Your Honour, they say there were nine victims, so there are nine families.  They could say you can go on with your proceedings, but then they do not know how the other seven families will feel about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

INTERPRETER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We will continue.  Before we do, Mr Mpshe, have you gotten a translation of pages 35 to 37?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, there is no translation.  This I discovered last night when I read this ...

CHAIRPERSON: But I raised this last Friday.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, and it was said that the translation will be forwarded.  I did phone Cape Town to check whether is had been forwarded and the person who was to assist in this, I am told, she is ill, she is not in the office.

CHAIRPERSON: But this is a statement, as I understand it, in Zulu which we could have surely had interpreted in 20 minutes here in the town.  If we had asked the assistance of those sitting behind you I am sure one or other of them could have helped you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr ...

CHAIRPERSON: Can arrangements be made, because one of the members of the committee has had the benefit of reading this letter, addressed to the Committee of Amnesty and she informs me that it is extremely relevant.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It is relevant Mr Chairman, I read it as well.  An arrangement can be made with the people behind, they can  in the meantime ...

CHAIRPERSON: Because I ...

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ... for a translation.

CHAIRPERSON: ... do not blame Mr Wills at all, because he and I, I think, both understood from, someone other than yourself, Mr Mpshe, that it would be translated and the translation would be available before the hearing.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So I was told, Chair. That was my information, but I will cause it to be done.

MR WILLS: Yes, Mr Chairperson, if I could intervene here.  I had raised that issue with the evidence leader prior to this hearing and the arrangement, as far as I was concerned, was at our pre-trial or pre-meeting, pre-hearing on Friday, that that would be done and, in fact, would be given to me at Monday lunch, on Monday lunch time together with certain other documents, but to date I have not received them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mpshe, I think it is a cause for concern that we should be given documents which have not been translated and the document by Mr Nzimande, I think, is an important document which should have been translated.  There is no point in including documents when other members and also the applicant's legal representative will not be able to use that documents you have included in your bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: A further problem is that I imagine Mr Nzimande is going to be giving evidence before us shortly and I would like to have read what he has, the representations he has made to us before I hear him giving evidence.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is so Mr Chairman and Madam committee members, but I want to point this out, that the procedure the TRC office, Cape Town office has now changed.  I do not, I was not given the opportunity to check the documents.  I wanted to check everything myself to make sure that all is in order, but ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, it is not your, Mr Mpshe, we had a pre-trial meeting on Friday to avoid precisely this sort of thing and an undertaking was given by another member of our staff who had prepared the papers, as I understand it, that arrangements would be made.  Mr Wills heard them and expected it to be done.  It is not your problem.  You have been up here leading evidence since we started and you also expected to be given this, but what, I wonder if we can get it, it is three pages, how long it would take to get that translated now.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I am told it would take about 15 minutes.  They have started with it.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, could we, perhaps, adjourn for 15 minutes and get that done so we are aware of what the applicants.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, possible, with respect I could suggest that we could continue with the evidence of the first applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, before you do that, let us ask, I do not know whether the person who is going to do the translation is the person who will be engaged in interpretation for the hearing.

ADV POTGIETER: It is ten to 11.  We may as well adjourn and have tea and stuff at half past 11.

CHAIRPERSON: No, not half past, he said 15 minutes.  Is it the same interpreter?

ADV POTGIETER: Yes, it is the same interpreter.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand it is the same person.  So we will adjourn now for at least 15 minutes, perhaps a little longer, till this has been translated and made available.  Once again, I would like to apologise to members of the audience who have been sitting here patiently for a long time.  The problem that has arisen now is that one of the applicants, the second applicant, when he made his application he put up a three page letter setting out what his grounds were.  That was in Zulu and, unfortunately, we are not all conversant with Zulu and arrangements were made to have it interpreted, but there seems to have been some misunderstanding and it has not happened.  So we are going to do it now and we hope within 15 or 20 minutes that we will start.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS