Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-15

MR CHASKALSON: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I haven no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CHASKALSON

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Is there anybody else that needs to ...

MR LENGANE: I do thanks, Mr Chairperson.  I'm just trying to test if Mr Bellingan was intending, should we understand Mr Bellingan to have intended to alter his evidence that was given in Pretoria when he spoke now in his speech just before lunch and he spoke about what he headed as general authorisations.
	Mr Bellingan, you said that in respect of this topic, general authorisations:
"No-one instructed me.  However, what I have said to this Committee before was true inasfar as my perceptions are concerned."
And if I'm not mistaken you were speaking to the NUMSA part of your Exhibit P, is that correct?  Is that what you said?

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: ...(no audible reply)

MR LENGANE: One of the last few points you made before the lunch break was that
"No-one had instructed me, but those were my perceptions, and what I have told this Committee apropos that was the truth."

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: ...(inaudible)  Sorry.  Mr Chairman, in fact I was referring to number 11 under the, on this Annexure P, which is titled
"Sub-Section (d) - Murder.  Number 11"
I think it's the second-last page, second-last page.  That is the one I was looking at.  And I didn't want to upset anybody further by going into detail and quoting from documents, so I just basically left it at saying that that is the position.  But what I actually wanted to say referred to the record 603 to 612, 852, 855 and 453 as well as page 43 and 44 of Annexure B, which is paginated 65 to 66.  I wanted to refer to all of those things, Mr Chairman, because at Khotso House I, my advocate specifically put to General van der Merwe this specific quotation over here and he confirmed that it is correct, the quotation that I'm relying on, in terms of what Mr Wagener had said about this highly militaristic bureaucratic organisation.  But Mr Wagener's own client, General van der Merwe had in fact already confirmed at the Khotso House hearing that my quotation was correct, that when required, the lower ranks were entitled to act on own initiative.  And I was going to talk about all of that, so it actually, it wasn't in the context with the NUMSA matter at all, Mr Chairman.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MR WAGENER: ... on behalf of General van der Merwe, I don't think that is correct.  If I can get the page number of the record please, and then we can quote it in the correct context please.

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: I'll ...(intervention)

MR WAGENER: In other words, I'm referring to the record of Khotso House.  I was there, that was not what General van der Merwe said, so can I ask at this time in moment the page number of the record and we can all check it.

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: It was put to General van der Merwe by my advocate and he agreed with the specific quotation that I've mentioned over here.  And with the help of my legal representatives I'll be happy to find it, but perhaps tonight, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't know how far that is going to take us.
	But Mr Lengane, you're still busy cross-examining, please go ahead.

MR LENGANE: Yes, Mr Chairman.  Mr Bellingan, would it therefore be correct to understand that you are now changing your evidence from the fact that you had been requested by General Erasmus to deal with the NUMSA cheques?  You are not altering that, you stick by that?

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: No, I'm not changing my evidence, Mr Chairman.

MR LENGANE: That's all, Mr Chairperson, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LENGANE

MR CHASKALSON: Mr Chairman, it may not be in order, but I have been prompted by my colleague, who's mentioned two further questions and I would request your indulgence to put these to the applicant as well before he stands down.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well if it's two then I suppose it's not ...(indistinct)

MR CHASKALSON: Mr Bellingan, did you record any of the conversations that you had with TRC officials prior to the meeting that you recorded?

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: Yes I did, Mr Chairman.

MR CHASKALSON: Do you have the tapes of those conversations?

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: I don't have them with me now, Mr Chairman.  I can go and look and see if I can find them if it's important to Mr Chaskalson.

MR CHASKALSON: I would request that you provide us with copies of the, of all of the conversations that you have taped, specifically the meetings that took place in November/December of '96, because that may well clarify the issue.

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: I'll see if I can find anything, Mr Chairman.

MR CHASKALSON: Thank you, Mr Bellingan, that is all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CHASKALSON

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes Advocate Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: There are a few matters I'd like to obtain more clarity on, thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Bellingan, do you know what the end value of Janine's deceased estate was?

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman, it was around R10 000, 10/11, something like that.

ADV BOSMAN: Who took out the life policy?

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: Janine must have taken it out, Mr Chairman, obviously.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you know about this life policy?

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: No, Mr Chairman, I didn't.

ADV BOSMAN: Who initiated the claim to have the proceeds paid out to you?

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman, my father had been going through my documents and he, he basically dealt with all of those things and he brought the documents to me and brought it to my attention and did the necessary arrangements.

ADV BOSMAN: I don't follow that, Mr Bellingan.  You say your father went through your documents, in other words you are suggesting that the life policy was amongst your documents?

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: No, Mr Chairman, it was in fact amongst Janine's documents, but he went through all of those documents.

ADV BOSMAN: Are you now saying that your father went through your documents and Janine's documents?

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: No, Mr Chairman, just Janine's documents, he just went through Janine's documents.  She had a type of cardboard filing system with documents in.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you request your father to go through these documents?

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: I don't recall if I requested him, I don't think so, Mr Chairman, I think it just happened as a natural process.

ADV BOSMAN: I find it rather strange, Mr Bellingan.  Don't you find it strange that your father, out of his own accord, would go through your deceased wife's documents?

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: No, Mr Chairman, I was not feeling very well and I had to get back to work as well, so my father stayed on Johannesburg and attended to various matters for me.

ADV BOSMAN: But at what stage did he go through the documents?

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: I'm not sure when he went through the documents, it was while he was still up in Johannesburg.

ADV BOSMAN: Could you just more or less give us an idea of the time span?  Did he come up for the funeral and then ...
...(end of side A of tape)

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: Yes, he was indeed up for the funeral, Mr Chairman, and then I think he stayed on for a week or so and then all of these people were liaising with my father in writing in Underberg in Natal.

ADV BOSMAN: Which people are you referring to, Mr Bellingan?

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: The pension fund and Bowens, the people doing the estate as such.

ADV BOSMAN: Where was Janine's will?

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: That was with Bowens, Mr Chairman.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you know about the will?

MICHAEL BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman, we had had a dispute, Janine and myself, regarding the will.  We had a joint will where I had made my mother the guardian in the event of our simultaneous death, and we'd had a debate about this where Janine had a difference of opinion at a certain stage.  She felt unhappy with it and she changed the will.  She told me she was going to and she went and did it.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you know the content of the will?