Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-14

MR BERGER: Now as you were exiting Boipatong am I correct when I say that you went through one of the top streets of Boipatong next to the factories?

JACK MBELE: When we left Slovo Park we didn't take the top street we took the bottom street and we met other people at the intersection of Lekwa.  Some went straight into that street, I turned to the last street in the vicinity of the firms.

MR BERGER: When you say you didn't take the top street you say you didn't take the street closest to the firms?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, there are two streets.  There's Lekwa, it's a tarred road.  When we left Slovo Park, we used the street that is not tarred, we used a gravel street.  At the intersection of Lekwa and this street people went straight but we turned to go and take the top street.  That is where I saw people running from their houses towards the firms.  These are the people that I have referred to earlier on when I said I shot at them.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbele, if I give you a map EXHIBIT J would you be able to plot on EXHIBIT J your course through Boipatong, Slovo Park and then out of Boipatong?  Would you be able to do that?

JACK MBELE: I will try.

MR BERGER: I'll give you EXHIBIT J, my copy and if you would mark it in blue.  I will give you a blue pen.  Mr Mbele, do you need to orientate you with the map or have you seen it before?

JACK MBELE: I saw the map with one of the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, now at the bottom of the map you will see there's Moshweshwe Street, do you see it?

JACK MBELE: I see it.

CHAIRPERSON: And then moving along Moshweshwe Street you get to Lekwa Street which is the intersection and then continuing along Moshweshwe Street all the way you finally get to Bakwena Street and then Slovo Park.  Do you see that?

MR STRYDOM: Can I point it out to the witness?

MR BERGER: Please, yes.
	And then Mr Mbele, if you look at the top of the map, right at the top you get Amatolo Street.  Now that is the street which runs next to the factories and the street just below that is Bafukeng Street which was the street I was talking to you about.  Now - and then if you go again to the left you see that's exiting now Boipatong.  So can you plot in blue on that map your route along Mshweshwe at the bottom and then explain how you get to Slovo Park and then explain how you get out of Boipatong please?

ADV SIGODI: Mr Berger, did you mention Bakwena Street?

MR BERGER: Yes I did.

ADV SIGODI: Where can we find that?

MR BERGER: Ms Sigodi, Bakwena Street is in the bottom right hand corner of the map.  It runs off Moshweshwe, Barulong, Majola and Bapedi Streets.  It runs in a north south direction, bottom right hand corner.

CHAIRPERSON: Will that be the very last one at the bottom of the map?

MR BERGER: Yes, yes that's it.  It runs parallel to Thabo Busiel Avenue which also runs north south.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the very short one there, is it?

MR BERGER: Yes, yes it is.

CHAIRPERSON: Two structures on either side.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, if one follows Moshweshwe Street right to the end of Boipatong just before one gets to Slovo Park, that's the start of Bakwena Street.
	For the record, you've indicated a route which enters Boipatong on the western side of Moshweshwe Street, proceeds down Moshweshwe to Lekwa, turns left into Lekwa, moves in a northerly direction until Bapedi Street, right into Bapedi, east along Bapedi to Slovo Park.  As you indicated the road which divides Slovo Park from Boipatong, up Boipatong - I beg your pardon, up that street in a northerly direction to the northern part of Slovo Park.  East - I beg your pardon, west along Amatolo Street, south into Sekakuni Avenue, west into Bafukeng Street until you get back to Lekwa and then you turned north into Lekwa and then left again and moved west along Amatolo Street and exited Boipatong on the western side of Amatolo Street.  Is that correct?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: How many of you were there in this group that finally exited from Boipatong?

JACK MBELE: When we were at the corner of Lekwa all these people passed, went into Bafukeng.  Myself and Makuka, only the two of us, used the outside exit which is Amatula Street.  Just the two of us.

MR BERGER: Why is that?  Why did you break away from the rest of the group?

JACK MBELE: I do not know the reason why, we just told ourselves that we will not use this street, my brother,that's what we said to each other.

MR BERGER: So are you saying that all the other attackers - now we're talking about hundreds of men continued to move along Bafukeng Street from Lekwa out towards Thembu Street?

JACK MBELE: I would not say all of them.  I'm referring to a group that was with us.

MR BERGER: Would that be the second group?

JACK MBELE: This is not the first group, it's a small group that branched of from Damarra's group.  Others used Bafukeng, the two of us used Amatolo, but the people whom we followed, some of them proceeded to Bafukeng because we could see them right ahead for exiting.

MR BERGER: Approximately how many people would you say would have been in the group that proceeded along Bafukeng Street?

JACK MBELE: Our group, Sir, or even the first group?  I don't understand the question, Sir?

MR BERGER: How many people would you estimate moved along Bafukeng Street as they exited from Boipatong.

MR LAX: Maybe if I can just help here with this, Mr Berger, if you don't mind.  Let's be clear.  You told us earlier in your evidence that you were following about 200 paces or metres behind a much bigger group from Slovo Park.  Did that group follow the same path you have shown here?

JACK MBELE: Some of them yes, followed that route.  I do not know about those who were in the forefront whether they turned left or others proceeded straight but some of them followed this route.

MR LAX: You were following what you thought was a group of people.  Whoever might have been ahead of them, you saw a substantial group, that was your evidence?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR LAX: What Mr Berger is asking you is those people eventually ended up along Bafukeng Street, the same people?

JACK MBELE: Yes, I would say they ended up exiting through Bafukeng because they were now heading for the corner, they used Bafukeng, Sir.

MR LAX: The question he asked you was how big was that group you were following that exited down Bafukeng Street.  That's what he is actually asking you.
It was a group of about 50, 50 something people.

MR LAX: What happened when you got to the corner and if you look at the map again, what happened when you got to the corner of Amatolo and Thembu Streets?  I don't know if Thembu, if the name appears on the map but Thembu is the last street in Boipatong on the western side, it runs north south.

JACK MBELE: Before we appeared - before we reached the corner - there were people who came from Bafukeng.  Now they were running towards the vicinity of the firms passing Amatolo.  That is where I shot.  I am the person who shot facing that direction.  He did not shoot.

MR LAX: So the shooting in the vicinity of the firms and your shooting occurred near the corner of Amatolo and Thembu Streets?

JACK MBELE: Not near the corner.  I think we were next to the eighth house from the corner.  Now people came running from the second house, running towards the firms.

MR LAX: Yes, I understand that the shooting occurred in the vicinity of Amatolo Street approximately eight houses from the corner with Thembu Street.

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR LAX: And then what happened after the shooting, what did you and your fellow attackers do?

JACK MBELE: We left for the hostel but there was a group of people waiting where we entered through to Boipatong.

MR LAX: I'm sorry, I missed the interpretation?

JACK MBELE: I'm saying - after shooting, those people ran towards the firms.  We proceeded straight to another group of our people who was waiting for us in an open veld.