Special Hearings — Children's Hearings — 1997-06-12

DR COLEMAN: Chairperson, I think we've done it in producing the constitution that we have and in producing the Bill of Rights that we have.
 The Bill of Rights within our constitution, is a document that we can be hugely proud of in my opinion.  I think it is a document that will stand comparison with anything in the world today, in terms of human rights and let's say cheques and balances, we are what the Germans call a "Recht Staat", a right State.
 Our allegiance is not to a person or to a parliament, it is to a constitution and it is a magnificent document, but having said that, you know, okay, it is a fine piece of paper, but it has got to walk off the paper into people's daily lives and we still are in  a country with 40, 50% unemployment. 
 The benefits of democracy, whilst we have formal democracy, the benefits of democracy have not arrived and once - I mean they have to be delivered to people on the ground and we have to get rid of the legacy of apartheid, the most important one of which is homelessness and joblessness.
 And once we've done that, I think everything else will follow.  All the criminal violence will either disappear or it will abate considerably.  I think therein lies the clue, in my opinion.

MR MALAN: Thank you once again, Dr Coleman.

MS MKHIZE: Joyce Seroke?

MS SEROKE: Mr Coleman, according to the Act that governs the life of the Commission, we have to go through findings before we make our deponents victims and that process is quite long as you can imagine through corroboration and that sort of thing.
 Because of in terms of the short life span of the Commission, we are going through lots of pressures, limited resources to such an extent that there are discussions now within the Commission as to how we could use information and resources from well-known organisations like yours to help us in this process of findings.  How do you see that process working if the Commission would decide to approach your organisation in terms of corroborating some of the statements that we have received?

DR COLEMAN: Thank you.  Well, we would be extremely happy to cooperate in whatever way we can.  We have got really a massive data base at our disposal and I believe a lot of it has been passed over to you, it is on your date base and of course the submissions that we are making now, are perhaps an indication of how much we want to cooperate with you and ensure that the whole truth is known at the end of the day and to help ensuring that the report that comes out which will be the final product, or one of the final products of your Commission, will be an accurate reflection of the past and we pledge our full cooperation to do that.
 Additionally I would actually like to make a proposal Chair, with your permission.  May I do that?  I would like to propose that the TRC resumes the responsibility for actually compiling and disseminating what I would call a roll of honour.
 You know we have come through a war and every war has a roll of honour, every just war in any way.   I think that we need such a roll and that roll would consist first of all and primarily of the names of those people who have died in the struggle.  When I say names, I am talking about names of all people, from whatever political persuasion, who have died in the context of the conflicts of the past, that their names should be inscribed on this roll of honour.
 Because we have so many unsung heroes, that we never hear about and I think it is important that their names should be paid tribute to.  One could additionally also list all those who have been detained.  Now that might be a huge job, we would never find all 80 000 but we probably will find half of those and perhaps they should be inscribed on a role of honour as well.
 And all those who have been banned, all those assassinated of course and all those restricted.  It will be a huge job, I believe it would be, let's say within the mandate and the capabilities of either the Truth Commission itself or let's say a sub-body which could be established.
 You know, I think that will be a lasting tribute and perhaps a unifying thing.  I can remember a few years ago when we managed to persuade the Editor of the Star to publish a list of 5 000 people who were in detention and he courageously did so in the face of a threat from the Security Police that he would be closed down if he did.
 Those 5 000 names were published in the Star one day and there it was and thereafter an enormous number of people came up to us and said that was fantastic to see my name on the list. ... (tape ends)  ... it was worth while is some kind of a way, now I believe that same kind of feeling could be passed on to people.

MS SEROKE: Thank you Mr Coleman.

MS MKHIZE: Tom Manthata?

THOMAS MANTHATA: I am inclined to wave my right, but Max when I go through this document, I realise there is a period or there is an event in the late 1980's that does not feature, namely the (indistinct) struggles between the UDF youths and the AZAPO youths.
 And we are here to talk about reconciliation without that face being reflected here, are we going to assume that it never happened and it never had the kind of gross human rights violations amongst or within those groups that may not impact on the process of reconciliation?

DR COLEMAN: Yes, indeed.  That is something which I must apologise for, in the sense again, that our focus has been on the State, on the human rights violations of the State and certainly within the various groups within the liberation struggle, there was some cross-violence which was very regrettable.  I think the same might be said of actions against, gratuitous actions against innocent members of the White public, which in the end achieved no good purpose at all, quite apart from the fact that they were horrific acts, but in terms of promoting the liberation struggle, were counter-productive.
 So, also the (indistinct) struggle between the different liberation movements, was counter-productive and I suppose yes, something should be recorded about that.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Perhaps let me rest my question, thanks Max.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you very much Dr Coleman.  We really appreciate your submission.
 Clearly it is very difficult to look at the question of human rights violations having gone through a difficult faze yourself and remain impartial, but in your case we can see that you have been thinking very, very seriously about these things as you are proposing even endeavours to come up with symbolical reparations which will be a spring board for reconciliation activities.
 We really appreciate that from you.  We hope you will continue to cooperate with us as we finalise our reparations policy and also thinking about what should be put in place in future to make sure that in this country, children in particular are not part of what you are describing, detentions and all other experiences which are harsh and inhuman.  Thank you very much.

DR COLEMAN: Thank you.