Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-15

MR VISSER: Well perhaps to be fair to you, can I just ask you again, did you actually meet personally with your sister Betty Boom on ten occasions since December 1986?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: We met personally ten times, but I'm not able to recall how many times did we contact each other telephonically.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Is what you're really saying perhaps this, I'm trying to be as fair as I possibly can, that when you talk about personal contact, you talk about meeting her and telephone calls?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: To meet, we met more than ten times, but through the phone, I'm not able to remember how many times.

MR VISSER: Alright, this more than ten meetings that you had with her since December 1986, did any of those meetings take place in South Africa before September 1987?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I don't understand the question.

MR VISSER: Did you meet with your sister Betty Boom personally since December 1986, before September of 1987?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: Yes, we met.

MR VISSER: So if somebody was to say that she left Lusaka only in September - I'm sorry, I stand corrected.  Can I rephrase my question?  Did you meet Betty Boom since December 1986, before August 1987, I'm sorry, I had the date wrong, before August 1987?  So between December 86 and August 1987, did you meet her personally here in South Africa?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: Yes, we met.

MR VISSER: Are you quite sure of that?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: Yes I do.

MR VISSER: So if somebody was to say that Betty Boom left Lusaka in August or September of 1987, that can't possibly be correct?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I don't know.

MR VISSER: No, how can you say you don't know, because you say that you met her here in South Africa before then.

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I met with her, but not everyday.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Do you know a person - was your maiden name Boom?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: Yes, that is correct, that's my maiden surname.

MR VISSER: Do you know a person by the name of Sam Booms?  Sam?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I don't know.

MR VISSER: He was also apparently known as Mazebuku, Isaac Melusi Mazebuku, that's not a person that is related to you, is it?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I don't remember that person, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, it's not a secret, the reason why I'm asking that appears in the August 1996 statement of the ANC to the TRC at page 98 where that name appears as a person who died in exile as number 13 under Angola.  We were just wondering whether there was some connection.  And you say the last contact with Betty Boom was either the end of November or the beginning of December 1987?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: On that occasion did she phone you, or did you phone her, or did you meet personally?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: She phoned me.

MR VISSER: Now will you please tell the Committee, were you aware that Betty Boom was in Lesotho around November/ December 1987?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I did not know where she was, when she telephoned me.

MR VISSER: And you don't know whose house it was, or where the telephone was that you used to phone to talk to Betty Boom, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose we should establish that who phoned who first.

MR VISSER: Ja, evidence-in-chief was that they phoned each other, Chairperson, but I can perhaps revisit that issue.  Did you at times phone your sister Betty Boom wherever she was?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: No, Chairperson, I did not, she was the one who was phoning me.

MR VISSER: I see.  Alright, well then I heard it incorrectly, I'm sorry.  You see, you say in paragraph 7 of your statement
"She used to send messages to us at home with other comrades who used to go to Lesotho."

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: But why do you mention Lesotho, if you didn't know that she was in Lesotho?

MR LAX: She never said she didn't know she was in Lesotho, what she said was she didn't know where she was phoning from. That was your question and that was her answer.

MR VISSER: Let me ask the same question I asked before.  Did you know that Betty Boom was in Lesotho in November or December 1987?  I asked you this before.

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I did not know where she was because at times she would just say she's in the Free State.

MR VISSER: That's right.  So why do you mention in paragraph 7, why do you mention Lesotho?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I said so because here I was not saying that at that time in November/December 1987 I knew that she was in Lesotho, I was just saying that she was in Lesotho at any particular time, which I did not know when.

MR VISSER: You know, I don't understand why you're not just being frank and I'll tell you why I make this allegation.  In paragraph 5 you explicitly said that you last saw her in 1987 when she was in Lesotho.

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: Yes.

MR VISSER: So why do you deny that you knew that she was in Lesotho?  I don't understand it.  But let's go on.

MR LAX: Let her explain.  If you ask her a question, let her explain.

MR VISSER: Can you explain?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: In times she would be in Lesotho, yes, but other times she would be in the Free State, but not knowing where, so I would not know when she would be in Lesotho or when she would be in the Free State.

MR VISSER: When you say in paragraph 7 that when she sent messages to you, she never seemed to be disillusioned about the ANC, do you see that in paragraph 7?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson, she seems not to be disillusioned with the ANC.

MR VISSER: Why did you make that statement in your document?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: Because I knew that she had more problems with the ANC.

MR VISSER: That's not the answer to my question.  The question is what prompted you to make that statement in your written statement?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: I wrote this statement in this way because the person who was taking the statement asked me questions to that regard as to whether - what was her well-being.

MR VISSER: Yes.  The person who took the statement from you, didn't he tell you what Mr Jantjie said in his amnesty application?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: No, Chairperson, she did not tell me, because I did not even have Jantjie's Statement.

MR VISSER: In any event, you see, I also don't understand your evidence compared to your statement, because in your evidence you talk about ten personal contacts with her and in your statement you never refer to personal contacts, you only refer to messages.  Why is that?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: Perhaps I forgot when I was writing this statement.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR MALINDI: Chairperson if regard is held to paragraph 5, then the statement is not that accurate that has been put to the witness.

MR VISSER: What is the problem Chairperson?  Paragraph 5 says
"I last saw her in 1987 when she was in Lesotho".

MR MALINDI: It means that there was contact with her besides the messages that are referred to in paragraph 7.

MR VISSER: Oh, I see, alright, fair enough.  Let me put it this way then.  You did not refer in your statement to the fact that you saw Betty Boom often, personally, do you agree with that?

CHAIRPERSON: What would ten occasions mean personally?  We're talking about December 1986, what would ten occasions because I think the evidence that she saw the sister more than ten times, that's her evidence, from December 1986 when they made personal contact.

MR VISSER: I'm just asking the witness - perhaps I could put it this way, is there any particular reason why you didn't say that in your statement, you didn't refer to these personal contacts in your statement?

CHAIRPERSON: There's not reason, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Who's Ms Semang, that you refer to in paragraph 9?

PHYLLIS DIPHUMOCOE SEYOE: He's one of the ANC members from Johannesburg.