Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-21

MR HEWIT: Anyway, the point of the matter is that the very first time you tried to kill him after you had a personal reason to dislike him, namely after the raid on your home and the firearm incident, you were successful.

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: And you'd failed on four occasions before to kill him when you didn't have a personal dislike of the man?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: And you're asking this Committee to believe are you, that your killing of Sergeant Dlamini was strictly political and had nothing to do with any personal grudge because he almost got you arrested?

MR MBAMBO: It is within the Committee to decide which one of the stories to believe.  But what I have said here before the Committee, that is what I know to be the truth, nothing else.

MR HEWIT: Right, let's talk about this incident involving the murder of Nati Gumede which also seems to have a bit of a personal connection between you and him.  Did Nati Gumede know that you were a member of a hit squad when you bought this VW Jetta from him?

MR MBAMBO: I don't know.

MR HEWIT: You have no reason to believe that he was aware of your secret life?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: As far as you were concerned he was just conducting a commercial transaction with an ordinary person?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Why then do you assume that when he blamed  you over the BMW and reported you to the police regarding this BMW and a criminal activity, that he was acting in pursuance of some ANC/UDF plot against you?  Why did you think politics came into it at all?

MR MBAMBO: After Captain Langene had told Ginam Mkhize that we should monitor Nati and establish whereas he came from and what reasons did he have for telling lies about me and we started doing exactly that.
	The first person that we spoke to was Andile Xele who told us that he knew Nati Gumede from Langezwa and he knew that he was an ANC Youth at Langezwa and he's also one of the ANC members that they were fighting now that he fled and settled in Durban.
	From then on we started monitoring him and find out what reasons he had.  One day in the evening Zwele, Dlamini and myself together with Israel Hlongwane as well as Principal Mbambo who leader of the IFP Eshowe travelled in his car to Langezwa going to Nati Gumede's place.  It was in the evening.  On arrival we found two cars and we knew that those cars belonged to the ANC offices in Empangeni.  It was a white Ford Meteor with a black stripe down and a red Ford Escort.  And we went back.
	This happened and Xena was reporting everything to Ulundi until we were summoned to Ulundi by Prince Gideon Zulu.  And on arrival there we were given this instruction and Dalaxolo Luthuli was also present.  The instruction was that we should go and kill Nati Gumede ...[intervention]

MR HEWIT: You've given us all this evidence before.  Basically what you're saying is that because you saw that there was a red Ford Escort and a black and white Ford Meteor parked in his yard and that these same vehicles had been parked outside the ANC Regional Office, you concluded that he must be a member of the ANC, is that what you're saying?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We also have information that he was ANC Youth fighting at Shlangeni.

MR HEWIT: So established he's ANC?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: And right.  So then in paragraph 104 then, you say that you reported this whole thing, your observation of Nati Gumede, back to Captain Langene by telephone, is that right?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, Ginam Mkhize did this.

MR HEWIT: And then you say
"He asked us what our decision was on the whole thing"
is that right?

MR MBAMBO: That was on the first report, that's Ginam to Captain Langene.

MR HEWIT: So Langene didn't tell you to assassinate this man then and there because you now established he is ANC?

MR MBAMBO: Those were the first developments and we continued with those.  Finding the ANC vehicle at his home happened a while after we'd been told by Andele Xele what he knew about him.  Therefore the conversation between Xele and Captain Langene concerned the very first developments.
	Subsequent to other developments we were then summoned to Ulundi and it was at that time that we received an instruction to kill him.

MR HEWIT: Yes, and that suggestion was made by Luthuli wasn't it?

MR MBAMBO: It was Prince Gideon Zulu and Dalaxolo Luthuli.

MR HEWIT: Well in paragraph 106 of your affidavit you say this
"We discussed my arrest and they showed their anger with Nati Gumede.  Dalaxolo Luthuli said that we should eliminate Nati Gumede"
is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: So was he the first person that said that the way to deal with this problem was to kill the man?

MR MBAMBO: No.  Dalaxolo said this after he'd been reprimanded heavily by Prince Gideon Zulu.

MR HEWIT: Well who before Luthuli said: "Kill Gumede"?

MR MBAMBO: Prince Gideon Zulu.

MR HEWIT: Well that's not how your affidavit reads.

MR MBAMBO: I agree with what you say.

MR HEWIT: You agree that in your affidavit you make it clear that the suggestion to kill starts with Luthuli, at paragraph 106?

MR MBAMBO: But Prince Gideon Zulu was the first to suggest because he was going to give us the car.

MR HEWIT: So is your affidavit incorrect then?  Because in the previous paragraph ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if he could be given that - do you have a copy of the affidavit before you Mr Mbambo?

MR MBAMBO: I don't.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Hewit, it would be easier if he had a copy.  It's paragraph - are you busy with paragraph 106?

MR HEWIT: I think in fairness to the witness Mr Chairman, I should probably start at paragraph 104.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
	It's paragraph 104 of your affidavit that's page 46 of the record, page 44 of your affidavit.

MR HEWIT: Do you have that affidavit in front of you Mr Mbambo?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Right, paragraph 104 reads as follows
"We reported the whole observation on Nati Gumede to Captain Langene by telephone and he asked us what was our decision on the whole thing.  We told him that we have not yet come up with a decision.  He told us to keep an eye on Nati Gumede and watch his movements carefully"
is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: So you confirm that even though it was reported to Nati Gumede, sorry, to Captain Langene, that Nati Gumede now was obviously ANC because these vehicles were seen outside his home, he did give you an instruction then to kill the man?  Do you agree with that?

MR MBAMBO: I do.

MR HEWIT: Right.  Proceed to paragraph 105.  You then say
"During May '93 Brian and myself got a message from Israel that we had to report at the IFP office at Empangeni the following morning"
is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.
MR HEWIT
"The following morning we went to the IFP offices.  Zweli Dlamini told us that Prince Gideon and Captain Langene have requested to see us.  Zweli offered about R200 to us as bus fare to go to Ulundi to meet Prince Gideon Zulu and Captain Langene"
is that right?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.
MR HEWIT
"We arrived at Ulundi and went to the KwaZulu Legislative Flats occupied by Ministers, where Mrs Mbuaze was staying"
is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.
MR HEWIT
"We told her about our meeting which was to take place with Prince Gideon and Captain Langene"
correct?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.
MR HEWIT
"Mrs Mbuaze gave us her Toyota Corolla to drive to Prince Gideon's house"

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT: Another incident where she doesn't seem to worry about this hit man, you, driving her car, which is known?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.
MR HEWIT
"We first drove to Dalaxolo Luthuli's home and discussed my arrest with Dalaxolo Luthuli"
correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.
MR HEWIT
"Dalaxolo told me that all the hit squad hierarchies were perturbed at my arrest"