Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

MS THABETHE: Mr Wasserman, I want to go back to Winkelspruit.  I'm not sure what your answer was.  You were asked at some stage whether Coetzer was there and what was your answer?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I don't recall Coetzer there, Ma'am.

MS THABETHE: Except that of course in his statement in bundle 2 page 103 paragraph 10 he suggests that he wasn't present when the deceased was interrogated, however, he could hear that she was being questioned.  What would be your response to that, would it conceded that or would you deny that?  Bundle 2 page 103, paragraph 10.

CHAIRPERSON: Bundle 2, page 103 paragraph 10.

MR LAX: Mr Wasserman the passage is in the middle of that paragraph and it says
"I could actually hear that she was being questioned."

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I didn't hear Sir.

MR LAX: Sorry.
"However, I could hear that she was being interrogated.

CHAIRPERSON: This is from a statement made by Mr Coetzer.  Paragraph 10 page 103, third sentence of that paragraph.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir, I understand.  The question Sir.

MS THABETHE: No that question was asked by Ms Thabethe.

MR LAX: And it was: What do you say about that comment?

MS THABETHE: Yes.

MR LAX: Is it possible that he could have heard that?  Basically that's what she's asking you.

MS THABETHE: Yes, of course with regard to the fact that he said that he doesn't remember whether he was there.

MR LAX: Yes.  would you concede that he might have been there and heard those things?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's possible, Sir.

MS THABETHE: Just another aspect, Mr Wasserman.   When you went to dump the body, were there any people still walking around at Bambayi?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: There was none visible to us when we did that action.

MS THABETHE: So is there any reason why maybe you didn't dump the body next to the road?  You had to go inside the veld.  Is there any reason why you decided to do that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: There's nothing specific, no specific reason for that, but it wasn't placed far away from the road, it was close enough.

MS THABETHE: So in your belief, you would say that the place where you dumped the body, someone might have identified the body or found it?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chair, and with all probabilities that body would have been located very shortly afterwards.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Visser, any questions arising?

MR VISSER: No thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel?

MR NEL: Thank you.  No thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe?

MR VAN DER MERWE: No thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Botha?

MS BOTHA: Nee.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS BOTHA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: Just one question, Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Wasserman, you say that this body was taken in a Skyline, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Sir.

MR SAMUEL: Jimmy Mbane will say in his evidence, that this body was put into a Toyota panel van.  Have you got anything to reply to that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's a mistake, Sir.  That's not correct, Sir.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, any questions arising?

MR WILLS: Yes.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR WILLS: I want to refer you to Mr Taylor's affidavit, page 5 of bundle 1, concerning the issue of where the order, what was the essence of the order to dispose of the body and I quote from the second paragraph on that page
"I seem to recall that Hentie Botha spoke to Sam du Preez, Basson, now deceased, and Lawrie Wasserman, subsequent to get rid of the body."
Now the point that I'm concerned about is that there's no mention there of getting rid of the body near the home.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: Yes, so are you sure that that was in fact the order?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir, that was given to us.

MR WILLS: And the other thing that the deceased Mr Taylor recalls, is that it was Hentie Botha who spoke to you and not himself.  Is he wrong there?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Taylor spoke to me personally Sir.

MR WILLS: And just if I may take the liberty very briefly, Mr Chairperson, to refer the witness to page 4, the last paragraph on that page.  Mr Taylor, in describing the incident, says that
"At a later stage, an askari, Jimmy Mbane, informed us that he had arranged that the Khubeka woman would be brought to us at the old Railway Police shooting range near Winkelspruit."
So he was of the view that the whole operation was to bring Khubeka to the shooting range.  Do you want to comment on that?  Is he wrong, or lying, or what is the position?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, I wasn't at any stage informed of who would be coming and who wouldn't.

MR WILLS: But you would expect that the senior officer would know what to expect because he was the one who was making the decision?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Normally that would be Mr Chairman, but at the time of Mr Taylor making this statement he was very ill.

MR WILLS: Now my final question arising out of Adv Bosman's questioning was, why did you want to put a body that in your view, who's demise had been natural, in a war torn area?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman it was both, next, very, well close enough to the house.

MR WILLS: You see, I would have understood the logic of that decision if that body had been crippled in the sense that had it been badly beaten and badly broken, then it would be consistent with leaving it lying by the side of the road in a war torn area, otherwise you could have just left it, as the Chairman suggested, on a park bench anywhere, at The Wheel in Durban, for that matter.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, not everybody that got beaten in Bambayi was beaten crippled.

MR WILLS: No further questions, Mr Chairperson.  Sorry Mr Chairperson, yes and just also, just the comment that - possibly you want to make a comment on why Mr Taylor refers to this as a possible murder?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Where would that be Sir?

MR WILLS: On page 4 of his affidavit, in the heading Incident 9 Nthombi Khubeka - possible murder or culpable homicide.  Would you like to comment on that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I can't comment for Mr Taylor, sorry.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

MR LAX: Sorry Chairperson, just one small thing.  Did you make any inquiries about whether this body had ever been recovered?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I made no enquiries whatsoever.

MR LAX: Any reason why?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, there was no reason for me to make inquiries and it happened and maybe it was finished.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Thank you Mr Wasserman, that - sorry Mr Visser, do you have anything you'd like to....?

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I was just going to point that out in re-examination Mr Chairman.              FURTHER

MR VISSER: Mr Taylor when he drew his application actually referred to a possible murder in
regard to Khubeka.  This is really argument, but nothing in what he says and what has been put to you just now by Mr Wills, suggests that any murder took place.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR VISSER: And also he denies that anyone ever assaulted her in his presence, that is at page 5.  Now previously and it might have been you or someone else, gave evidence as to the mental state and his condition at the time, just prior to Mr Taylor dying...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I'm a little bit - approximately when did Mr Taylor die, of what did he die?  Perhaps if you could just explain that for my own information?

MR VISSER: Could Mr Nel help us Mr Chairman?