Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

MR DE KLERK: Can I just begin by saying that an analysis of political and politically-related killings, since the election, under the presidency of President Nelson Mandela will show that it didn't stop. It didn't stop in KwaZulu Natal. We all know it. Members of the security forces are still involved according to newspaper reports in that. I am not blaming President Mandela and saying because members of the security forces are involved and because it's a fact and it's coming to light that these killings continue that he's to blame. That he should know everything. 
The test is not whether things go wrong, in a department, in a civil service, in a security force, in a company, in a church, the test is whether there are, firstly, reasonable guidelines, rules, regulations and control measures in place. I had them in place all the time.
The second test is, if there is transgression is it covered up or are there efforts, sincere effective efforts to find a culprit. I didn't cover up, I took those steps and I've listed them for you.
The third test is, if then people are found guilty are they acted against? On that my track record is clean and I dealt with that this morning.
So it's a fallacy to say that if things go wrong that means that somebody is not in charge. Yes, if things get out of hand, if nothing is done, if leaders sit on their hands and don't do anything, yes, you can make that accusation, but I've listed what I've done and what my government has done in that regard to deal with this.
The very fact that the killings continue after the liberation of all South Africans, after we have instituted the full democracy, shows you how strong the undercurrent is, how deep the divisions are; how deeply hidden some of the activities were and continue to be. 
It is on that basis that I, with respect, reject the insinuation that I was not in charge. I took numerous steps to ensure that the situation which was very volatile was kept under control and continuously brought more and more under control.

CHAIRPERSON: Denzil.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson. Mr de Klerk can I just come back to the discussion which Advocate Goosen drew your attention to at this State Security Council meeting in May of 1986, 12th of May 1986 where on the face of it, on the face of the minute, which as he has indicated is in the bundle of documents that was handed to you and which I have in front of me here and which I have looked at, on the face of it quite clear, the wording is quite clear, and he has dealt with that, he has referred you to the wording, he's used the translation, the English translation, the original minute is in Afrikaans and the wording is quite clear. It refers to, for example, 
"The Third

<UNKNOWN>: orce had to be operational with a fully trained effect of eliminating terrorists".
It also says that,
"These security forces have to work effectively in eliminating the terrorists within their own methods".
He has dealt with that, yes. I'm just referring to the original text. Now to me that kind of terminology is very clear. 
You were in attendance, it appears from this minute that you were not strictly speaking supposed to have been, or you haven't strictly formed part of the structure at that stage. Your attendance is under the heading, "in attendance", somebody who is probably brought in just for purposes of that meeting, because you were then the Minister of National Education, and you were not - it doesn't appear from this document that you were really into the security part of the government at that stage. Now when this was put to you, you emphatically again referred to the absence of any policy of killing etc, criminality. You've also appealed to your christian view and so on and so forth on this ...(intervention)

MR DE KLERK: Not just mine.

MR POTGIETER: But that's the point I want to come to you see. What you are telling us today, was that the majority view in this town or is it simply your personal situation that you - your personal conviction, your personal interpretation, your personal view about government policy that you are relaying to us? Because you seemed to be just in attendance really and the wording here is very clear.

<UNKNOWN>: irstly, this seems to be, once again I am looking at a document which has been given to me here now. This seems to be, if I skim through it, a recording of what people said, not a decision, not a minute, in the sense of this is a decision, after a debate the following decision is taken that this will now be the position. I am just speaking off the cuff now. 
By now you, I think, well I don't like to talk about myself, but by now I think you would have at least come to the conclusion that I listen to things carefully. I can just say that I can't recall exactly what was said by whom and who were where on the, what was the date, the 12th of August 12 years ago. I don't have a photographic memory. But what I do know is if that, if that, as it's been put by Advocate Goosen, became official policy it would have surfaced again and again. I would have known about it. If it slipped me by at this meeting it would have recurred. It would have been referred to, but I have never experienced at any stage that I was part of any decision. I have never felt uncomfortable about a broad policy decision which would authorise the wilful killing and assassination and murder of people. If I was there on that occasion then - and if your interpretation that this might have been a decision to authorise officially such a policy, I would have understood it and I wouldn't have stood for it. I wouldn't have complied for it. I have never been fearful, not of P W Botha or anybody, to put my view forward. I haven't been a "Ja-broer" in any cabinet and in any position where I served. 
I am telling this Commission and the country that I have not been part of a decision which I experienced that here is a decision which authorised that. I could not live with such a decision.
So on what I can remember and on my whole experience of my whole participation in government I stand by what I say before you and before God, that I was not part of such a policy.

MR POTGIETER: We accept that, we hear you in that regard. You have made the point. I am simply just trying to explore this. I know that this document was just presented to you and to me as well, and I am trying to make the most of the opportunity that we have got to look into this, and I have put my question against that background because it's a minute, it obviously doesn't record everything that has been said. It doesn't record you, for example, noting your objection to this line of discussion and so forth. It seems as if it is a noting of the sort-of ...(intervention)

MR DE KLERK: Viewpoints....

MR POTGIETER: ...general viewpoint that's expressed. In fact the first paragraph refers to the Chairman or the second one, (b) refers to the Chairman,
"The Chairperson says that the prescribed Third

<UNKNOWN>: orce...."
and so on and so on, so it quotes the Chairperson, and that's former President P W Botha, as sort-of almost adopting a positive line towards this discussion, because he seems to be approving, but he just says look it must be outside these two existing forces. 
So it seems as if this is, this, what is recorded here, seems to be the effect of the discussion. So "uitewis" and "gebruik hulle selfde metodes" that seems to be recording the effect, the crux of the discussion. And that is why I have asked you whether there wasn't a majority view in this particular instance and perhaps a dissenting view, although it's not recorded. And it's against that background that I've raised it.