Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-18

MR WEBSTER: Chairperson, may I stop there and ask your indulgence that some concrete evidence come up and only on those aspects, namely that is the helicopter and the shots being fired from above the vehicle and in no other respect, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I understand except that you would have realised that this Amnesty Committee doesn't have an indefinite lifespan?

MR WEBSTER: That is quite so, Chairperson, I am asking that indulgence with that pertinently in mind, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Right you are, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WEBSTER

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any questions to put to this witness, Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, re-examination?

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Botha, I will not enter into argument with you but let us just set the record straight?  I would request you to once again page to Exhibit G, this incident deals with a person who sat on the back seat on the right hand side.  You have conceded according to the questions which my learned friend put to you that wound number 4 could not have been caused by you, do you recall that?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Exhibit G?

MR VISSER: Exhibit G page 17 deals with the person who was on the back seat on the right hand side.  You have conceded in cross-examination of Mr Webster that if you fired shots at the vehicle that those shots could have caused wound number 4?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Well let us have a look at page 19?  Before we arrive at the description, I will read the description and it would seem that on the right hand side figure on page 19 the topmost wound, although we cannot read it clearly, would be the entrance wound of wound number 4?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: It would seem so.

MR VISSER: And on the left figure at the number 4 is the exit wound?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Well let us see what the doctor has to say about that.  On page 17, Chairperson and that was the fatal shot, Chairperson, one of the shots which could have caused the death.  The fourth wound is a wound anterior to the chest, that's in front and exists of a round wound, this enters the chest cavity and goes through the anterior edge of the left lung and whatever else that means.  The rest I can't quite understand, Chairperson.  "Enters the heart sac and so forth and so forth."
	From this cryptic description of this wound which speaks of whatever the round hit would be directly behind which you see on the left hand figure and if the suspicion is correct that it entered from behind and exited in front, do you still say that you could not have possibly caused that wound?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: So you say so?  Very well.
	Commissioner Bosman asked you with which weapon you fired and you said with a pistol?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And then she asked you if it was an automatic weapon and you said no.

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: It was a 9 mm parabellum firearm Chairperson.

MR VISSER: The question is was it an automatic weapon?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: It was not a machine gun as such.

MR VISSER: But that's not what I'm asking you, is it not an automatic weapon?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: It can fire more than one shot.

MR WEBSTER: I'm sorry Chairperson, I don't know whether that is re-examination, it seems to be bordering on cross-examination?

CHAIRPERSON: I think that this is not a trial, this is a Committee of Enquiry, it will help us.

MR WEBSTER: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: If that question was not asked we might have asked some of it ourselves.  I want to know how many rounds that 9 mm pistol would carry?

MR VISSER: To satisfy Commissioner Bosman's question, this pistol has a magazine, is that correct?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Which holds a certain amount of rounds.  With which weapon did you fire?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: A 9mm parabellum.

MR VISSER: CZ75?  What type of weapon.

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: A 9mm parabellum.

MR VISSER: And how many rounds did the magazine hold?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I'm not certain but I think nine.

MR VISSER: And to answer the question further, the moment when you fired a shot by pulling the trigger of the firearm, what do you have to do to fire the next shot?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: You once again pull the trigger.

MR VISSER: So all you do is you pull the trigger, is that what you did?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Yes Chairperson.

MR VISSER: So it is not a machine gun where you just once pull the trigger, the difference is it's an automatic weapon but you have to pull the trigger all the time but it loads itself?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words each time you pull the trigger it only fires one bullet?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you've told us it carries, the magazine carries 9 bullets?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I think so, I might be wrong but I think it's 9 Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Have you any recollection as to whether you used more than one magazine that day?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: No definitely not, not more than one magazine, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And the magazine which you used was it full before you started firing?  Would you have ascertained that your magazine is full?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I am not certain whether it was full but I would believe that there were enough rounds in the vehicle.

MR VISSER: And did you empty the magazine or what is the position?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I am not certain but I believe that some of the rounds remained in the magazine.

MR VISSER: After or when the shooting commenced did you then foresee the danger that persons could be killed?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And you say you heard many shots?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Reasonably many.

MR VISSER: And by your action you associated yourself with the order?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: When afterwards you investigated and you saw that four persons were killed in the vehicle, did you then associate yourself with this action?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And you have testified that you went further, you tried to better the police's side by testifying falsely?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And while we are at that point, Mr Webster asked you are you a person who had lied much in the past and had compromised your position as a senior officer, can you recall that?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And you gave two answers, the one was you said yes and afterwards you said when this matter was taken further that in this matter you had lied.  What did you mean when you said yes to the first question that you had often told lies?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I was honest in the sense that during my work in the recent years it happened that one handled informers who when questions were put to them you could not give them honest answers and you would tell them lies with good intentions and it was also about the hiring of safe houses where you would not convey honesty to persons hiring the house out, because of circumstances one could not do so and the truth was contorted a little bit to protect informers.

MR VISSER: Was it also the fact that police stories concocted legends and cover stories?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: You speak of cover stories?

MR VISSER: If you want to call it a cover story?

MATTHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: This cover story, what was it all about?