Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-22

ADV BOSMAN: Mr De Wet, the question of double ranks I do not really understand that.
	The whole question of ...

UNKNOWN: .

MS CAMBANIS: I know I am out of order, but I beg leave to put exactly three propositions to this person.
	Sir, you escaped together with Mr Barnard, Mr Myburgh and Mr Le Roux, is that correct, after your conviction?

JAN B DE WET: That is correct Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: Is it correct that Mr Barnard and Mr Myburgh was subsequently convicted of offences relating to further killing sprees aimed at the black population?

JAN B DE WET: That is correct Chairperson.

MS CAMBANIS: Is it correct that in the subsequent killing spree, there was no mention of this being done on behalf of the AWB?

MS VAN DER WALT: Chairperson, with respect, I do not know how this applicant could answer, and with respect, I do not know what the relevance is of such incidents afterwards.  How does it have any connection with this amnesty application?

CHAIRPERSON: The relevance could be argued, but whether it will be accepted or not, is another matter.  If the applicant cannot answer, then he just has to say that.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, that is all.  Sorry, is it correct that there was no talk about the AWB being involved in the subsequent trial of Mr Barnard and Mr Myburgh?

JAN B DE WET: No Chairperson, as far as I know the people who took responsibility for it was the Boere Aanvalstroepe, the AWB did not take responsibility for that.

MS CAMBANIS: Just for the record, the summary of that matter appears on page 20 of Bundle A.  Thank you.

MS CAMBANIS: .

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Van der Walt, do you have any further questions?

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr de Wet, you were asked with regards to the instructions which you would have received to go and place the bomb in Germiston.  Who told you to take the bombs there.

JAN B DE WET: Nobody told me to take the bomb there, I made my vehicle ...

UNKNOWN: .

MS VAN DER WALT: You say that you made your vehicle available and then you continued and you said something about Cliffie?

JAN B DE WET: Mr Barnard, when we were together, he called us together, he said this bomb is going to Germiston and because of the pipe bomb missions which we discussed earlier the previous evening, I reconciled myself with it and I was prepared to take the bomb to Germiston.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now, you said you made your vehicle available.  This you said because of what General Nico Prinsloo told you?

JAN B DE WET: Yes, that he didn't have a vehicle for Barnard and therefore I offered him mine because it had a tow bar on it, and this was on instruction from General Nico Prinsloo.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were you specifically asked for a vehicle with a tow bar?

JAN B DE WET: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And when you got back, once again you were told to take the tow bar off?

JAN B DE WET: Yes, the same person - him and Leon van der Merwe, told me that I must take the tow bar off my vehicle.

MS VAN DER WALT: Several times you were asked with regards to the fact that on the 21st of April ...

UNKNOWN: .

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr de Wet, were you aware - sorry, you were asked questions with regards to the fact that on the 21st of April at Brigadier Leon van der Merwe's you were there on that date, and you went there to learn what had happened and that you would receive instructions there that there would be a war?

JAN B DE WET: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Before that date, were you in any sense aware of the fact that you are going to make war now?

JAN B DE WET: No Chairperson, Abraham Myburgh once came from Head Office, he came to pick up things at my house and then he told me, he addressed me as Oom Jan, and he said Oom Jan, it seems to me Terreblanche is going to wage war now, he called the people up to Western Transvaal.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you know about the call up instructions?

JAN B DE WET: Yes, I did Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: You also made mention of Koper Myburgh, you were asked who told you to go to Koesterfontein, that is the Sunday evening, when you picked up the pipe bombs, you said Koper Myburgh told you that?

JAN B DE WET: Chairperson, Koper Myburgh called me and told me that General Nico Prinsloo wanted me and then he asked me to take Myburgh to Koesterfontein to go and pick up things there.

MS VAN DER WALT: So then from there you went to a meeting, that is your evidence or rather you were called into a meeting?

JAN B DE WET: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Koper Myburgh was also involved in that meeting, even though you would not know that?

JAN B DE WET: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: You were also told that you executed this operation on your own initiative, your little group, but I would refer you to Volume 2, Chairperson.
	I refer you to Volume 2, page 7 that is the Volume in front of you, that is the charge sheet when you were on trial?

JAN B DE WET: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And there in paragraph 2, the State alleged in your case that these acts were committed in order to prevent the election?

JAN B DE WET: That is correct Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And that is how you submitted it?

JAN B DE WET: Yes, that is how I submitted it in that case as well Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

ADV BOSMAN: Mr De Wet, the question of double ranks confuses me, it would seem to me that there were Officers and even the leader of the AWB who sat on different chairs or who wore different hats.  Let's take Eugene Terreblanche, as far as you know, where was he involved in the capacity of a leader?

JAN B DE WET: Chairperson, Terreblanche, the only time he was a leader, was the time he was a leader of the AWB.  He was not the leader of any other organisation.

ADV BOSMAN: Where was he in a leadership structure?

JAN B DE WET: The BKA, the Volksfront - that is the only three I can tell you Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: And then Mr Barnard, which hats did he wear, on which chairs did he sit on?

JAN B DE WET: Mr Chairperson, in the AWB there are two facets, the AWB Wenkommando and the Ystergarde which is a special unit.
	In the Wenkommando there was a rank structure as well as in the Ystergarde.  When you had done the Ystergarde course, you either became a Lieutenant or a Captain once you have completed your course.
	That is where you find the double ranks, in the Ystergarde he was a Captain, but in the AWB's Wenkommando he was a Commandant or a Colonel, whichever the rank was.

ADV BOSMAN: When Barnard would give instructions to someone, would he say I am giving you this instruction in my capacity as a Captain in the Ystergarde or in my capacity as a Colonel in the Wenkommando?  How was it channelled down?

JAN B DE WET: If he gave an instruction, it would have been as Colonel because he worked directly with Terreblanche.

ADV BOSMAN: So his rank, it seemed to me that his rank within the Ystergarde didn't really matter, it confuses me.

JAN B DE WET: Chairperson, I was a Colonel myself in the AWB Wenkommando and a Captain in the Ystergarde.
	At one stage we were told to choose, either we are with the Wenkommando or the Ystergarde with regards to operations, and there I chose to stay with the Garde.  That was my need within the AWB.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know what Barnard's choice was?

JAN B DE WET: No Chairperson, I cannot say what his choice was.

ADV BOSMAN: And then one further question, Mr Barnard, maybe I didn't hear something correct along the way, but Mr Barnard, wasn't he in another organisation as well?

JAN B DE WET: No Chairperson, not that I know of.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Chair.  Two questions really, you mentioned that you spoke to Nico Prinsloo about what you had seen at Koesterfontein and this must have been either probably on the morning of the 25th, this is right?

JAN B DE WET: It was the Sunday evening Chairperson, after I returned from Koesterfontein.