Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-03

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: If we arrest an insurgent and we receive good co-operation from him, 
we would then try to get him to work with us, perhaps to be a witness for us.  It is not 
a necessity to prosecute him or one and all.
	Attempts would have been made to do other things.

ADV VISSER: Lastly Mr Erwee, you may have forgotten this because it has happened 
11 years ago, but it is also so that at that stage, that is now the 10th of July, it wouldn't 
have been possible or it wouldn't have been necessary to prosecute these people in a 
court of law, because there was a general state of emergency in existence at the time 
and you could have just have detained them, so it wouldn't have really been necessary 
to reveal the identities of the informers or Sehlwana?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: That is correct, yes.

ADV VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY

ADV VISSER: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, let's deal with that speculation.  We must because when I 
asked the witness what did you want to do with them eventually, he didn't say I don't 
know what we were going to do, there would be many possibilities, he didn't.  
	He chose one direction and he said, we are going to arrest them and then 
charge them.  Now, you are putting to him other possibilities and I think I must ask 
him  in relation to that too, I mean you can't keep a person in detention for ever, could 
you?
	You couldn't have kept anybody in detention under emergency regulations for 
ever, at some stage you would have to take him out of detention?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: No, you can't keep him indefinitely.

CHAIRPERSON: And if you wanted to, if you would have had in mind to use them as 
your informers, what if they refused, what would you have done with them if they 
refused to work for you?  What would you have done?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: Obviously, we would have charged them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  What I am saying to you is that in the end, because you are 
carrying out your lawful duties, you would have to follow the legal processes in order 
to act lawfully, isn't it?  Any way, thank you Colonel.
	Mr Rossouw, did you want to put questions?

MR ROSSOUW: I have no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY

MR ROSSOUW: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, do you want to catch it by the tail?

MR BLACK: There are just two little issues, I just 
want to clarify.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just don't repeat what we covered this morning in your absence.

MR BLACK: No, I just want to put it to you Mr Erwee, that when Brigadier 
Coetzee testified, he said he received the information about the yellow shirt and the 
meeting at the station from Captain, as he called him, Dreyer.
	And you say you are the one, you conveyed this to Colonel Van der Merwe 
and he conveyed that?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: I heard the evidence of Brigadier Coetzee.  It is 11 years ago that it 
was Captain Dreyer who transferred the message that the six insurgents had died, I 
conveyed the message that five insurgents had died and that two people were 
wounded.  One insurgent and one Defence Force member and that the insurgent had 
died on the way to Alldays.

MR BLACK: Fine.  And the other issue just to, you say that you cannot recall 
whether all the corpses were placed in the back of the bakkie when you loaded the 
wounded man on the bakkie.
	Now, I just want to put it to you that all the corpses must have been on that 
bakkie, because as I understand your evidence, that was the only available transport 
left other than the casspir and you cleared the scene of all the corpses and the whole 
scene as soon as possible.
	So this wounded man must have been transported with all other five corpses?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: It was 11 years ago, indeed, I can remember when I loaded the person 
onto the vehicle, I made him comfortable.  There were some of the deceased on the 
bakkie, but it is possible that some other vehicles came from Alldays to help, but I can't 
remember that.

MR BLACK: And in fairness to you I must still say that according to my notes when 
you testified yesterday, one of the reasons given by you for the use of the helicopter 
was in case wounded people had to be transported and in the event of people also 
being arrested.
	That's just on record, thank you.  I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, at some stage I thought that that is what he said and that is 
why I put a question to him in that regard a few minutes ago, but is your recollection 
that he in fact said so?

MR BLACK: Yes, according to my notes, that was one of the reasons for having the 
helicopter, was in case they had to transport wounded people and also to assist in the 
event of people being arrested.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY

MR BLACK: .

CHAIRPERSON: Any way I suppose the record will show, because one of my 
Committee members tells me that that is also her recollection.
	Do you want to comment on that Colonel?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: Yes.  The helicopter was primarily to be present in case one or two of 
the insurgents tried to escape, but I concede that the helicopter could also have 
assisted us if any other problem cropped up on the scene.
	For instance somebody was injured, it could have been any kind of help.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, in that case I would have thought that, precisely because you 
open fire on the combi and before allowing the helicopter to leave with Captain Born 
or was it Captain Born, before allowing the helicopter to leave the scene with Captain 
Born and because you knew you had shot those people there, I would have thought 
you would delay the helicopter to see whether there were any survivors.
	Particularly if your intention was not to kill them, to see whether there was any 
survivors there.  You must have been they would be injured at the very least.  And 
then put them on the helicopter as well?
	Why was that not done?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: That is correct.  You must remember that when I jumped out of the 
casspir after the seize fire, the teargas overwhelmed us and I ran away for about  80 to 
100 paces.  When I could not longer smell the teargas, I could see the helicopter and 
then Colonel Dreyer came running with Captain Born to the helicopter and then when 
we got to the helicopter, I helped him load the injured person onto the plane.
	Some of the teargas had already permeated our clothes and it was also hanging 
in the area, and the helicopter had to take off very quickly because the flight engineer 
told the pilot we have to be very quick, we will have trouble with the teargas 
otherwise.
	And then I went back to the combi and the casspir.

CHAIRPERSON: But that is exactly my question Colonel.  Why was the helicopter not 
delayed for a short while so that you could satisfy yourself whether there were people 
in the combi who needed that kind of help?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: Yes, that is so, but as I said there were teargas very close to the 
helicopter and in the helicopter, so it had to take off very quickly.

CHAIRPERSON: So it is the teargas that is the important issue here, is that the reason 
why only the Captain was evacuated and not also one of the injured persons?  So it is 
the teargas that is the crucial thing?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: Yes.  Yes, nobody could get close to the combi at that stage.

ADV VISSER: Just a short question arising 
from what you have just said.  When Born was loaded into the helicopter, did you at 
that stage when the helicopter took off, determine whether any of your men were 
injured who could also have been transported by helicopter?

ANDRIES JOHANNES GERHARDUS ERWEE: No, I didn't do that.

ADV VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.
NO

ADV VISSER: .