Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, I am sorry ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: It's not a short adjournment.  (Laughter)

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn now and resume at two o'clock.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

GINOTRY DANSTER: (s.u.o.)

MR VISSER: (cont)
	Mr Danster can I take you straight to the event which you described where you went to Bloemfontein to go and collect, as you put it, "a captured terrorist" in your statement, and I want to ask you this.  Why was it necessary for four people to travel to Bloemfontein in a sedan motor car to fetch one captured terrorist? ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Surely man Mr Visser, shouldn't the answer be given by the people that organised that rather than him, by his superiors?

MR VISSER: Well Mr Chairman, with respect, this is in dispute.  You know what the evidence is.  The evidence is that Raath and Greyling went up.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it wasn't done by him, it wasn't planned by him.

MR VISSER: Well Mr Chairman if you think it's an unfair question I'll leave it.
	I want to put it to you Mr Danster ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Who decided who should go to fetch....

MR VISSER: Alright, who decided who should go to fetch Mr Kondile from Bloemfontein?

GINOTRY DANSTER: It was Captain du Plessis.

MR VISSER: Do you have any opinion as to why he would have decided that four people should go in a sedan motor car to fetch one person from Bloemfontein?

GINOTRY DANSTER: No I don't know.

MR VISSER: Yes, neither do we.  We Raath gave evidence, you heard him didn't you?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes I did.

MR VISSER: What do you say of his evidence that it was himself and Captain Greyling that went to Bloemfontein?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is not true, I have witnesses.

MR VISSER: Who are these witnesses?  I didn't hear a translation.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Can I give the names to my counsellor?

CHAIRPERSON: No you can it to us, tell the Committee.

GINOTRY DANSTER: There are police that I was working with and they knew that I went to Bloemfontein.

MR VISSER: Mr Danster I am not for one single moment suggesting to you that you never went to Bloemfontein.  I am suggesting to you that you didn't go to Bloemfontein during July 1981 to fetch Mr Kondile, that is what I am suggesting to you.

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is not true.

MR VISSER: Now do you have witnesses that can substantiate the evidence that you went to Bloemfontein in 1981 together with the persons that you mentioned to fetch Mr Kondile?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR VISSER: Who are they?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Mahote.

MR VISSER: How  do you spell that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: M-A-H-O-T-E, P.

MR VISSER: And who is this gentleman or lady, is it a gentleman or lady?

GINOTRY DANSTER: It's a gentleman, it's a policeman.

MR VISSER: Where is he at the moment?

GINOTRY DANSTER: In Port Elizabeth.

MR VISSER: And how would he know that you went to Bloemfontein to fetch Mr Kondile?

GINOTRY DANSTER: The people who were working in my section they know that I went to Bloemfontein to fetch Mr Kondile, they can confirm that.  He's not the only one.

MR VISSER: Can I just ask you this.  How would he know, was it because you told him so, or how would he know?
Or the other people that you referred to, how would they know?

GINOTRY DANSTER: They know that we went to fetch Mr Kondile in Bloemfontein and I was involved in his case.

MR VISSER: Alright we will leave it at that.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me is there any document or any file at the police station which records the fact that you are leaving the area, you and others are going on a mission for some purpose outside your territory for two days or three days, is there any record of your departure and arrival?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I don't know whether they are still there.

MR VISSER: And what kind of document would this be?

GINOTRY DANSTER: When you go out to fetch somebody there is a document where you go and fetch this person and a document where you take this person to.

MR VISSER: What do you call, in police circles, what do you call this document?  Is it a book, is it a piece of paper, what is it?

GINOTRY DANSTER: A person would be booked in a place in a cell register.  He would be booked out and in an OB.

MR VISSER: You see that's why I asked you the question, it's clear that you don't understand what the Chairman has asked you.  The question here is would there be a register, a book, a piece of paper, a document which will show that on a certain day you, together with du Plessis and Raath and Bezane went to Bloemfontein to go and fetch Mr Kondile, is there such a document that you could refer us to?

GINOTRY DANSTER: It is not in my possession, I don't have that document.

MR VISSER: What do you call that document?  If you don't know just say so.

GINOTRY DANSTER: I don't know.

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Danster you say that you went to fetch Mr Kondile in a holding cell in Bloemfontein?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

JUDGE PILLAY: Can you remember whether you signed an Occurrence Book or any type of similar document to indicate that you were the one that was removing him from that holding cell?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I don't remember but we went to fetch him.  It was myself, Buzane, Raath who went to the police station to fetch him and one black policeman from Bloemfontein.

MR VISSER: The question, and I am not certain whether I missed something which you said, the question is pertinently this.  Did you sign in any book or document for Mr Kondile in Bloemfontein, you yourself, personally?

GINOTRY DANSTER: No I don't remember.

MR VISSER: And you told members of the Committee that when you received Mr Kondile you placed a balaclava over his head, is that correct?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: Is that something which you remember well, or is that something which you might be making a mistake about?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I remember that very well.

MR VISSER: If somebody suggested that you placed a bag over his head, would that be incorrect? Page 44 volume 1.

GINOTRY DANSTER: We covered his face when we were in town and then when we were on the road we would open or uncover his face.

MR VISSER: You are dodging the question aren't you Mr Danster and you know it?  You know it.

GINOTRY DANSTER: We covered his face and I was there when that was done.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, was it done with a balaclava or was there a bag put on his head?

GINOTRY DANSTER: It was a sack or a bag.

MR VISSER: Alright, so it seems that your memory does fail you.  Alright.
	Now you come to Port Elizabeth and you go straight to Mr du Plessis' office, is that correct?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We took him out of the car and we put something on his head and we went with him.

MR VISSER: Did you go straight to Mr du Plessis' office or did you go somewhere else before?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We went straight to the office.

MR VISSER: And is that office at Sanlam Centre, Headquarters of the Eastern Cape Security Branch?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR VISSER: Please tell me if I misunderstood your evidence.  Was your evidence that Mr du Plessis asked Kondile a few questions and that he then made a telephone call to Jonker, would that be correct?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes he asked a few questions.

MR VISSER: And he then made a telephone call to Jonker.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: And your knowledge of that telephone call is that he arranged with Jonker for Kondile to be detained in Jeffrey's Bay?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes because Jonker was at Jeffrey's Bay.

MR VISSER: Is it correct Mr Danster that you then told us that you then went home, you were taken home.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR VISSER: And the next time you saw Mr Kondile was at Jeffrey's Bay and he was already there.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes that is so.