Human Rights Violation Hearings — Heiderveld — 1996-04-22

MR NGUDLE: Yes that is true.  Now I remember that Senator Christmas Tinto in one of the occasions when we remembered our father, he mentioned the fact that if the death of my father the way he knows it.  And he saw him when he was arrested and he was - he also saw him when he was put into Caledon Square, and I think that he also can help in that regard.

MARY BURTON: Thank you very much Mr Ngudle, thank you for all your testimony to us this morning.  We will now therefore ask Senator Christmas Tinto to come to the microphone and to be sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: There may be questions.

MARY BURTON: Are there - do you want to handle the questions - sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you - any questions?

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you Siyanda and your mother, thank you very much.  I would like to ask mother and you Siyanda, did you ever see your father's funeral - grave?

MR NGUDLE: [Answer inaudible]

ADV NTSEBEZA: Now that should worry you that you never saw your father's grave but you still want to have the funeral.

MR NGUDLE: [Answer inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions on this [indistinct] - no - thank you - yes.

DR BORAINE: If I could just ask you one short question, you mentioned that your father met Govan Mbeki in prison at Pretoria Central is that right?

MR NGUDLE: [Answer inaudible]

DR BORAINE: Now you mentioned that your father told Mr Mbeki that he was being tortured, is that right?

MR NGUDLE: Yes that's true.

DR BORAINE: How did he communicate that - how did he tell Mr Mbeki?

MR NGUDLE: He said my father whispered to his ear as the Rivonia Trialist were - were put together with the other prisoners during the exercises.  He told him that he was going to give him a note, just a little paper so as he did - he did drop the little paper when he was just passing next to him.
Now as a - Mr Mbeki just pretended as if he was tying his shoelace, and then he picked up the paper and he read it in his own time.  Now in the paper it was written that he was being tortured, that is now my father [intervention]

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you - we are really surprised that - to see that - that you drop out of school for such a long time and then you come back.  This is absolutely amazing we congratulate you, thank you.

DR BORAINE: Senator Tinto welcome very much to the witness stand.  Senator Tinto I understand that you are willing to give witness today.

MR TINTO: Ja Mr Boraine.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, I have to ask you to take the oath please.

CHRISTMAS TINTO: Duly sworn states

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much, please be seated, Mary.

MARY BURTON: Good morning Senator Tinto and welcome.

MR TINTO: [Answer inaudible]

MARY BURTON: I believe that you have heard the testimony that has been given by Ms Ngudle and Mr Ngudle, the wife and son of Looksmart Solwandle Ngudle.  And that you have some further information that you can give us on his death.

MR TINTO: [Answer inaudible]

MARY BURTON: Please will you tell us what you have to say.

MR TINTO: During the time of our arrest, under the Act, under the [indistinct] Act, we collected ourselves knowing that we are going to be arrested.  I met Looksmart Ngudle - Solwandle, he told me that he was sure that when he was - he was [indistinct] - when he was arrested he was going to be killed.
Two weeks after that, I was also arrested.  I was kept in Caledon Square.  During the three weeks that I was arrested, I heard a loud sound the policemen were celebrating.  They were saying we got Looksmart.  I don't even think that they knew his surname because they were using Looksmart which is his first name.
After a little while I was in then upper cell, my cell was just directly facing the steps.  They came with him rushing, kicking him, beating him up going up the stairs.  What I noticed after looking at him while he was going up the stairs, is that as a person who had beard, they pulled out his beard on half of his face.  It wasn't shaved as  usual, it was just some hair pulled out of the face.
He was bleeding heavily on it - from his mouth.  Something that I don't really know happened after that, my cell was opened by the police.  They threw him in, after that they were surprised to see that there was another person in here - that was me.  And now they pulled him out - during that short period, there were two policemen who had beaten him up.
It was Sergeant Greeff  and Sergeant Van Wyk who are known as Spyker.  Both those boers were beating him up.  He tried to say something, just during that time these boys were trying to ask me what he was trying to say.  So I told the police that I - I don't know what he said because I didn't hear anything.  They took him away to the next cell and then went down again.
And then in the morning there was this loud noise again.  I shouted outside through the window because I could - the other people from other cells as well I tried to shout to tell the others that Looksmart is in the boers hands and they really beat him up and I think that they are going to kill him, considering the way they were beating him up.  Now we went to sleep, on the second day I didn't see him.
On the third day I tried to be on guard just to listen what is actually going on, on the stairs.  Now I saw - I saw him with the police, but now they had covered him, handcuffed him behind his back.  Now there were three more boers with Van Wyk and Greeff.  That was actually, that was the very last time we all saw Looksmart, Solwandle with our naked eye.  That is how I saw what happened.

MARY BURTON: Can you tell us what month that was, it was in 1963 wasn't it?

MR TINTO: I was arrested - I was arrested in February 1963.  Now he was arrested also in February 1963  end of Tape 2, Side B ...  more questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions - yes.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Mr Tinto I would really like to ask that - did you know Looksmart in the struggle?

MR TINTO: I knew him a lot.

ADV NTSEBEZA: But we now we don't really see this - there is something that we see that he started the struggle in the 1950's  - do you testify to that?

MR TINTO: I don't know for how long because we went into the ANC - we joined the ANC on different times, I joined the ANC in 1991, others were already in the organisation.  I can't really differentiate when was it that he joined the organisation, but it's been a long time already.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Did you know him during the time when he was working for The New Age Yes I know him.

MR TINTO: [No audible answer]

ADV NTSEBEZA: Do you also know that during the 60's he was the head of - he was of the Umkhonto we Sizwe.

MR TINTO: That is something that I cannot testify to because I don't know.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Did you know that he was the one leading the Umkhonto we Sizwe, he was the one who was recruiting - were you recruiting together.

MR TINTO: No our own recruiters.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Did you have direct communication?

MR TINTO: Oh! yes.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh! Sorry Denzil.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson,  Senator just to confirm the detention which you and Mr Ngudle was subjected to was the 90 day detention in 1963?

MR NGUDLE: Yes we met in 1963.  On two occasions that I have been arrested in 1957 during the [indistinct] boycott, I wasn't arrested with him, we were not in the same cell.

ADV POTGIETER: But the incident that you testified about, you were detained at that stage under the 90 day Detention Law.

MR NGUDLE: Ja.

ADV POTGIETER: Now was that solitary confinement, solitary detention - alone in a cell?

MR NGUDLE: Ja I don't really know here now, but we were - [inaudible]

ADV POTGIETER: I am just waiting for the translation, I don't hear it.  Yes could you perhaps repeat it, I think the translation service has missed that part.

MR NGUDLE: [indistinct] 90 days we use to see it as a place where you go - you would be detained separately in your separate cell when you are under interrogation.