Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MR DORFLING: It goes to more than that Mr Commissioner, it goes to a regrouping.  Mr Kruser gave evidence to the effect that there was a regrouping, it goes to the noise and the sounds that were being made and it goes thirdly to the nature of their movement being a so-called war dance.  A hesitation at the corner with a war dance and then a charge forward.  The conflict I'm pointing out is that according to this witness, he was already passed the corners of King George and Plein Street going up northwards towards de Villiers Street as he saw the marchers coming into the intersection.  There was no hesitation, no regrouping, no war dance and they approached very very quietly.  Those are the three contradictions I point out.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Dorfling it's not this witness's evidence that the group was quiet at the time he saw them come around the corner, so please let's correct that impression of his evidence, he hasn't said that at all.  He in fact said quite the opposite, he said that when they were charging ... (inaudible - end of tape)

MR DORFLING: ... (inaudible - beginning of tape) request record of this witness and I made reference to the specific page which I quoted to the witness.  It would seem that his evidence with regard to the noises today is yet another, or is different in that at this point in time he testifies that there was some sound emanating from the crowd.  Mr Beea did you at any stage hear any orders being given by Mr Kruser on the day?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: No I did not.

MR DORFLING: Can you perhaps assist in telling us whether you became aware of Mr Kruser's presence at that corner or in the vicinity of the corners of King George and Plein Street, perhaps if not prior to the shooting, after the shooting?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Honourable Chair I cannot place a face to a body at a pillar or at a corner.  I had seen Mr Kruser in my ups and downs during the morning.  I had seen him during the day but I cannot place Mr Kruser at a particular spot during the pandemonium and the shooting.

MR DORFLING: My question is specifically aimed at enquiring from you whether perhaps even after the incident you can still recall having seen Mr Kruser in the vicinity?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: In the vicinity of Shell House, yes.

MR DORFLING: In the vicinity of the corners of King George and Plein Street?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: There is no specific individual Chair, before or after, that I can place to a particular - I cannot recollect and say this person after the shooting was at the corner or this person before the shooting was at that corner, I cannot do that.

MR DORFLING: Can you recall automatic gunfire emanating from the position where you saw the guards positioned, being the corners or in approximation of the corners of Plein and King George Street?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Honourable Chair I had said and I want to repeat it again, that I did not and cannot specifically point that the gunfire came from here, but the impression created in my head then, given the state of mind - I did say that when I was asked what kind of gunfire - I did say that I heard pistols, I heard automatic gunfire which I believe was an AK47, I heard shots from shotguns and my belief then hearing that heavy sound, the impression and belief was that that sound and that fire came from the marchers who were charging.  I said that at the inquest Honourable Chair and I'm saying it again here because this is how I remember the events.

MR DORFLING: Are you conceding the possibility that although you perceived the automatic gunfire to be emanating from the crowd, that might in actual fact have emanated from the security guards?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: If I take the ballistics into consideration, yes I do.

MR DORFLING: Mr Beea can you still recall your evidence in this regard at the time of the inquest, whether you were specifically asked as to whether you would have been in a position to hear the fire emanating from the corner of King George and Plein Street where Mr Khumalo was standing and where he says he was firing from.  Can you recall what your response was?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: No unless if you find the passage, I'll confirm or deny it.

MR DORFLING: I would like to read to you from page 6953 at lines one to twenty six or rather from line three onwards at page 6953 Mr Chair.

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: What line is it?

MR DORFLING: I'm reading from line three sir.  "And if there was firing with an AK47 from the guards in that proximity, five to ten metres from behind you, is it possible that you could not hear it under the circumstances?".  "No".  "Did you hear such automatic fire behind you?".  "No I did not".  "Now Mr Eddie Khumalo has testified that he did indeed fire on automatic fire from that corner, approximately at this point in time".  "Which corner is that sir?".  "The corners of Plein and King George, that is now the people that were on your evidence five to ten metres behind you.  How is it possible that you did not hear it sir?".  "I cannot say anything on Eddie Khumalo's statement".  "No ..." and there's an intervention, "my recollection is that I did not hear any". "But I think now what is being put to you ..." and this is by Mr Justice Nugent, "But I think now what is being put to you is that your evidence that you are giving me cannot be correct because Mr Eddie Khumalo says that he fired with an AK47.  Is it possible that you could not have heard that?".  "No it is not possible, not an AK47".  "Well then how does one reconcile your evidence that there was no sound of gunfire from there with Mr Khumalo's evidence that he was in fact shooting from there?".  "From behind me I do not recollect any AK47 from behind me".  I want to put it to you sir that it is clear from your evidence that you explained to Mr Justice Nugent that if there was AK47 automatic fire coming from that corner behind you, it would be impossible for you not to have heard it if it was automatic gunfire.  Do you like to explain that?

COLSON TEBOGO BEEA: Honourable Chair, again by way of illustration as a way of emphasising my response, the no's and the yes.  If you can take me to, and the mindset is settled and we are at the shooting range and you shoot with an AK47 from behind, yes I will tell you it's an AK47 from behind because there is nothing in front of me that threatens my life, my state of mind is settled.  But given the circumstances then somebody's approaching, somebody's charging, my state of mind tells me that the person who is approaching and charging is shooting at me, I'm scared as a person, panicking, fearing for my life the life of other people.  It is possible that even if there is gunfire behind me of that heavy calibre because my concentration and my mind tells me that it comes from there but I cannot hear it, it is therefore that I said no it is not possible given the circumstances, but if it was normal, yes I could have heard that.  So I'm trying to put the situation and the circumstances into perspective because the way in which it is put today and then, it was as if we were relaxed and people were shooting and that is not true, the reality is that it was the opposite.

MR DORFLING: Mr Beea with the greatest respect, you were specifically asked at the inquest proceedings about the happenings at that specific moment when the fire was ringing out and it was specifically asked to you is it possible that it happened to be the shooting of Mr Eddie Khumalo behind you and you did not hear it and your responses at that proximity:  "No", and then there's a further question:  "And if there was firing with an AK47 from the guards in that proximity five to ten metres from behind you, is it possible that you could not hear it under the circumstances?" and you say:  "No".  You must have heard it, that was your evidence.