Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-17

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I understand that, Chairperson and I understand the frustration with regard to this, it is just as frustrating for me.  I was a cog in that system but I think it is unfair - I recognise my part in for example the Omar project and in other projects, but I think it is unfair to take the messenger who takes a letter from point A to point B and delivers the letter at point B, and then the person opens the letter and he does not like the contents of the letter and he shoots the messenger dead.  That is what they are trying to do to me.  Don't hold me responsible for that, hold me responsible for my actions, for that which I did, but don't hold me responsible for the information because that was not my function.  ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR KHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl the explanation you are now giving is completely at variance with the version that you had set out in your amnesty application, the version that you had set out in your amnesty application is the following
"I was appointed as the member of Region 6 responsible for the Cape."
Correct?  We agree on that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.
MR KHANOVITZ
"Accordingly I sought to recruit certain unaware members in order to gather information about the enemies of the State in the Western Cape."
Correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.
MR KHANOVITZ
"On the basis of the information that I received from my informant it came to my attention that a certain Dullah Omar was a prime mover in the UDF in the Western Cape."
Correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.
MR KHANOVITZ
"Acting on the basis of that information I put together a proposal which I presented to my superiors.  In that proposal in the first place I identified Dullah Omar as an enemy of the State."
Correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, that is not what is being said there.  I would like you to look at my statement, the statement that I had made in 1990, where I firstly said that our primary function was we were an executive and secondly was information.  In my statement it is quite clear that the first time that I heard of Mr Omar was from ground level.  There was no intensity whatsoever with me to identify Mr Omar as a target whether it be to eliminate him or whether to do whatever with him, there was no intention whatsoever, it was part of my secondary intelligence structure, I took that information, I sent it through to the Co-ordinator, Basson and long afterwards I received feedback and Co-ordinator Basson called me in and said I want you to do a pre-study on Omar.  I did not do this, sending the information through, with the intention of choosing Mr Omar as a target.

MR KHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl, your version is quite obviously untrue, you are well aware of what the function of the CCB was and that function incorporated the elimination of people who were perceived to be enemies of the State, correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I understand that, that is so.

MR KHANOVITZ: If you send information into an organisation such as that, identifying a particular person as an enemy of the State you are well aware that one consequence of your conduct could be that that person will be eliminated?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It could be a consequence, I agree yes.

MR KHANOVITZ: Correct.  Joe Verster also testified that the way in which this process worked was that the member of Region 6 who was responsible for the project would not only put forward information in relation to why the person was an enemy of the State, it was also their responsibility to make proposals as to what steps should be taken against that person in order to maximise the disruption to the enemy, correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR KHANOVITZ: Accordingly you must have made certain proposals as to what steps should be taken against Minister Omar?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR KHANOVITZ: And one of the proposals that you must have made was that he should be eliminated?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: What was told to me, my evidence is quite clear in this regard, I received information with regard to Mr Omar, I fed it through the necessary channels and afterwards the Co-ordinator, Basson, came to me and told me do a pre-study in order to eliminate Mr Omar - I beg your pardon, I came down to Cape Town, I spoke to my persons on the ground and I told them this is what we want to do with regard to Mr Omar, where does he stay, how do we go about this, I made those plans, I do not deny it and I made that submission but the instruction that was given to me, it was not an initiative from my side to eliminate Mr Omar, it was an initiative from elsewhere which was fed through to me, through the Co-ordinator, Mr Basson.

MR KHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl, your version doesn't make sense, your version might have made sense if it had been that "one day I was in the CCB offices in Johannesburg and Staal Burger gave me the name of Dullah Omar and said here is your enemy, he lives in Cape Town, go and find him and kill him."  That's not what happened, correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR KHANOVITZ: It was through your initiatives that Minister Omar ended up on the CCB's hit list?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I do not deny that but I am telling you that when for the first time I collected information about Mr Omar I did not collect it with the intention of registering a project to eliminate Mr Omar, that was not my function, that was not my intention, that was a secondary task that came afterwards.

MR KHANOVITZ: But Mr van Zyl, if you had wanted to ensure that no project was registered for the elimination of Dullah Omar, what you would have done in the CCB meeting was to say, look I've identified this person as an enemy of the State, under no circumstances do I recommend that he should be eliminated, he's a small fry, I think you should burn his car?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Chairperson, I cannot understand that you do not understand my answers.  It's as simple as this, the CCB had the facility of an intelligence structure, who that intelligence structure was I do not know, I did not liaise with any person in that intelligence structure, my link to that intelligence structure was just my Co-ordinator, Mr Basson.  He is going to have to tell you who that person was. If I receive information in the set up where I worked at the CCB then I would simply do what was expected of me and my secondary function was get the information and I will feed it through, it has to be processed by the intelligence structure whoever that may be and it comes back to me with a further instruction and that is what happened.

MR KHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl, are you endeavouring to disassociate yourself from moral responsibility for the decision to eliminate Dullah Omar?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No that is not what I'm saying, I'm saying that the first time it was told to me that in terms of an executive project that my first instruction came from my Co-ordinator, Mr Basson, Chairperson.  He told me do a pre-study in order to eliminate Omar, that is where my involvement started and my involvement ended as my evidence indicates here before this Commission.

MR KHANOVITZ: You were the primary source as far as we are aware of the CCB's information on the Western Cape, correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I would say I was the primary source of intelligence for Region 6 within the CCB structure.  The CCB structure had in all probability an information structure that hopefully was a lot more sophisticated than just my small intelligence structure that I could create in a period of four, five or six months.  I was not the only source of information for the CCB, there was a structure specifically for that, who that structure was I do not know.

MR KHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He's talking about the primary source here.  The other structures to corroborate or to confirm info that was put through them.