Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-15

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, the holding of the police hostage, that is the officers as hostage, and if that was not communicated to Brig Gqozo, how were you hoping to achieve your objective?  How was it going to assist you holding them as hostage, if that was not communicated to Brig Gqozo, the person who is supposed to step down?

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he say that Gqozo volunteered before they could say anything?  He volunteered to say "look chaps I've gone, I'm giving up" so there was not dispute there.  It seemed as if by the time that they got there Gqozo had already decided that he's going to get out.  That's exactly what he told them before they could say anything.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  That may be the case but the point here is that it was never their intention to inform Brig Gqozo that "we are holding people hostage, as long as you don't resign, or as long as you don't step down we are not going to release them."  What he was saying, the hostage, at the end of the day, was not related to their objective they were seeking.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I understand your argument, I don't understand your question though.  As I understand the evidence,  Gqozo told them he'd stepped down, so why - you're not going to argue with him and say "look we have hostages" he's already said he's stepped down.  So there was no need to exert pressure on him to step down.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes but when they went there, they didn't go to Gqozo to say this is what they are doing, they went there to say he must step down, they didn't say "look, there are people who depend on you stepping down and those people, we are holding them hostage", that is my question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well that's a different question.  That question relates to what they had in mind when they went there.  It doesn't relate to what happened when they got there because what happened when they got there is quite clear.  Gqozo had resigned already so I mean there was no need to discuss hostages.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Let me rephrase it.  Thank you Mr Chair.  Now, is it correct that when you went to Brig Gqozo you did not go to him to say "look, resign because we've got people who we are holding hostage".  You went there to ask him to resign or to step down because you didn't want him  and to go and address the police at the college?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: When we went to Brig Gqozo, we didn't want him to know that he was overthrown.  When we arrived he had already known that, that is why we thought that maybe Gen Nqoya told him that the police were kept as hostages.  We didn't go there to tell him that we had kept people as hostages, we wanted him to go to the college and then when he arrived in the college we would tell him that he was not going to leave there as the officers were there.  We would call the media and we would tell him to resign and tell the people that he had resigned.  Luckily for us when we arrived there he said that we had disappointed him, he has given up, he had just phoned Pik Botha and at the time when his bodyguards had left, maybe he had asked them where they were going and maybe they told him that the police told them to go to the base so he knew that things were bad.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions Ms Collett?

MS COLLETT: Just one or two thank you Mr Chairman.  Do you confirm then, Sir, that there
were certain police officers inter alia Commissioner Nqoya that were kept against their will at the police college and deprived of their liberty?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: Yes I do confirm that because the person that was kept there against his will, he also kept there against our will because he had told us that he was going to come back.  The people were kept hostages there by Gen Nqoya is ourselves because he had told us that he was going to come back.

MS COLLETT: Do you confirm that Gen Nqoya has instituted civil proceedings against you and others for the deprivation of his liberty, and claimed damages?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: Yes, I do confirm that.  Even if I had money I would lay a civil claim against Gen Nqoya because he had kept me waiting there at the college but I don't have enough money to do that, but he has done that because he has money and he has misused money, about R134 000 because that's what he confessed.

MS COLLETT: Do you confirm that your political object - or do I understand your political objective to have been that you wished Brig Gqozo to step down and that is why all the people should be at the police college?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: That was our main objective and indeed that happened, he has resigned.  I'm very happy today because I'm under my new president Thabo Mbeki.  If we didn't remove Brig Gqozo that day, I am sure that blood would be shed here in Ciskei because he was going to tell us to shoot the masses.

MS COLLETT: And at the time that Brig Gqozo informed you that he had stepped down, Commissioner Nqoya had not yet been brought to the police at the college.

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: We didn't know where he was, we were looking for him because he was a General, he was leading the Ciskeian police, so it was possible for him to communicate with the South African police to come and disrupt us in the hall.  The South African defence force and the South African police would deal with us.  The South African defence force would deal with the army, and then the police would deal with us so there would be chaos.  So we were scared that he would go to South Africa and tell what we had done, that is why we were looking for him all over after he had told us that we should wait for him, he would be back, according to what the people who were there said.

MS COLLETT: Just give me a simple answer please, do you confirm that by the time Brig Gqozo told you that he'd stepped down, Comm Nqoya as yet was not at the police college?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: Yes, he was not yet there, since he had left us at about 11 o'clock saying that he was going to have a meeting with Brig Gqozo.

MS COLLETT: And do you confirm that it was only about 9 o'clock that night that he was actually brought to the police college?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: He did not arrive at 9, he arrived in the morning and according to the information I got he was brought by the soldiers.  I don't know where they met him, maybe they were together with the police, but I heard that he was brought by soldiers.  He is making a mistake if he is saying that he arrived at 9 in the evening.  He arrived in the early hours of the morning.

MS COLLETT: My instructions are that he was brought in the evening.

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: That is why I am saying maybe he might be making a mistake.  Maybe he was scared, he didn't even notice what time it was.

MS COLLETT: Do you confirm that before Comm Nqoya was brought to the police, his wife and daughter were there?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: Yes, I do confirm that because when they didn't find him, we said that if he was not there, they must take the wife and children because he's the person that we were scared of, he would tell South Africa that we had gathered there.

MS COLLETT: But South Africa already knew that you had gathered there.  Brig Gqozo already knew, he told you that much.

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: Yes, he already knew because he had said to me he stopped South African defence force, they were standing next to the stadium and I could see them, so it is obvious that South Africa was aware, but we were scared of the police because if the soldiers were supposed to deal with the other soldiers, and then if the police were supposed to deal with the other police, we wanted Nqoya to be there so that we could all die if we were going to be shot.