Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-30

MR BLACK: Ja but the point is you didn't testify you didn't make a claim then, you didn't put your case forward at that hearing, is that so?  You may have pretended but you didn't lodge your claims isn't that so?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: I don't want to answer that.

MR BLACK: Fine.   Mr Msibi, did you know Mr Shleze in Piet Retief?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Yes he's a resident of Piet Retief.

MR BLACK: Did you know him as being an ANC activist, Chairman of the ANC Youth League and perhaps an MK Commander.

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: I was not involved in politics, I was representing the community not taking sides.

MR BLACK: Okay.  Now Mr Msibi, have you any ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Msibi, I'm not going to hold that against you but you say you were the Mayor of the township of Piet Retief prior to 1994?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: There was a number of calls, decisions and in fact practical steps taken to boycott Apartheid elections do you recall that?  Before 1994 in almost every township in this country.  Do you remember?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: I don't recall that.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know about it?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Boycotting the elections, no I know nothing about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you never read on walls "Don't Vote" - "Don't vote in Apartheid elections" etc.  Do you not recall that?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Are you referring to the '94 elections or the elections prior to that?

CHAIRPERSON: Before '94.  '94 there was no more Apartheid on the books.

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Or '88.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's get to '88, there's more reason then I'm sure all the walls said "Don't Vote".

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Piet Retief was different.  Maybe you're referring to other parts of the country, yes I knew about that.

CHAIRPERSON: There was nothing in Piet Retief there was no call for a boycott of Apartheid elections there in Piet Retief.

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: No, not at Piet Retief.  The wards there were combined into one and after the boycott which lasted for four days there was an agreement between the Committee of sitting and the old T.P.A. and it was agreed that we were going to use the one vote system.  That is when the rental boycott came to an end.  That was October 1988.  The election in Piet Retief was held in October 1988 on the 29th and the agreement was reached on the 24th October to the effect that the boycott should come to and end so that the people ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on - so that the people?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: So that the people who were to be elected by the community would on assuming official duties indicate to the residents that they should start paying.  There was a document that was prepared and signed by some of the people.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes so that the Black township, the African township of Piet Retief had it's own Mayor and Council and the White people of Piet Retief had their own?  Are you telling me that the people were satisfied with that?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Yes the ...[indistinct] was.

CHAIRPERSON: Extraordinary.  Now the fact that you were the Mayor, don't you think that in itself attracted the anger of people?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: With your permission, Mr Chairman, let me start off by saying - I just want to respond to that.  Piet Retief was one area that was seriously harassed in 1983.  The people who worked as councillors before were using the policy that people should pay as they earn.  That created problems so that the councillors at the time were boycotted by the residents.  Some of the councillors threatened that residents who didn't want to pay should vacate their houses.  These residents managed to get hold of a lawyer ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you misunderstand me.   I'm not interested in whether there was a rent boycott or whatever, I'm asking you that the fact that you were prepared to do what the Apartheid regime wanted to be done in the African townships and you were the Mayor of that structure, is that not the reason why the people were angry in Piet Retief?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: No that is not correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are saying the Black people of Piet Retief were happy to have this structure that the rest of the country was rejecting?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: They were very happy because as I have indicated.

CHAIRPERSON: Good.   Mr Black have you got any other questions?

MR BLACK: I just want to clear up something for Mr Gushu.  When we deal with Mr Shleze did you know that he, in your position as mayor, that he was Chairman of the ANC Youth League?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: No.  I only knew him to be a resident of Ethandakukhanya.

MR BLACK: Alright.  Now there's been evidence given that there was reports made that you were actually entertaining or housing Askaris?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Those are blue lies.  I only heard about the Askari reports here.  I don't even know what the meaning of that word is, I don't even know whence it came from.

MR BLACK: Is this the first time you've hear the word Askari?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Yes, I don't even know what it means, perhaps if you were to explain to me.

MR BLACK: So up until ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, a horse that arises from the dead is more dangerous hey.

MR BLACK: I just want to put one more thing to the witness with respect that as far as the actual incident of the shooting was concerned at your store, there's evidence that Mr Mlangeni who was working for you at the time, he was in the process of closing the store when you were attacked.  Do you remember that or did things happen too quickly for you?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Yes I do remember that.

MR BLACK: Yes.  Do you remember that he was in the process of closing and that you had gone to your car when you were shot?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: I was inside the van, 4x4 Nissan, not another private car and I had closed the right door with the window open.  Mlangeni had already closed the two glass door not having rolled down the roller door and he already had the key in his pocket.  He took the flight of stairs down and when he was just about to put the till inside the vehicle there was noise.

MR BLACK: That's when the shooting started?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Yes, it never occurred to me that those were gunshots I thought maybe it was a train that was driving past.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: I'm saying this Chairperson because the manner in which the shots were fired were such that I've never heard of such gunshots before.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black you're long past your last question.

MR BLACK: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK

CHAIRPERSON: Anybody else wants to ask questions?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman on behalf of Mr Beki Mlangeni the brother of the late Mlangeni, may I just put two questions to the witness, Mr Chairman?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Msibi, is it correct that Mr Beki Mlangeni is the brother of Mr Themba Mlangeni, the deceased in this case?

ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI: Yes that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And he is also former brother-in-law, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: What's that name Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: The name of the victim, Mr Chairman?  The deceased in this case is Themba Mlangeni and the name of the person, the brother in law of the witness Beki Mlangeni?

CHAIRPERSON: How does he become a victim, a brother-in-law?

MR PRINSLOO: No, Mr Chairman, he's the brother of Themba Mlangeni the deceased but the brother-in-law of the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I see.  I'm sorry.  What's the brother's name?

MR PRINSLOO: Beki Mlangeni.

CHAIRPERSON: Good.  Can we contact him care of Adelaide Mlangeni, Provincial Hospital, Piet Retief?

MR PRINSLOO: Or at the same address as the witness, Mr Msibi, Mr Chairman.  It's Box 167, Ethandakukanya.

CHAIRPERSON: Would he prefer that address?

MR PRINSLOO: That's correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Good, okay.