Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-29

MR BERGER: Whilst you may not have known of the exact operation in which they were going to use the bombs, for example, would it be correct to say that you knew that the bombs were going to be used either to blow up installations, or to kill Security Forces, or both?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I did not know, but I was just thinking about that.

MR BERGER: You accepted that that is what the bombs could be used for?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I do not understand the question.

MR BERGER: When you provided those materials ...(intervention)

JUDGE PILLAY: Did you know they were going to bring it to South Africa to use it?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, I did know that.

MR BERGER: Now you've spoken about providing material to soldiers for use in South Africa.  You've spoken about making sure that they are housed in Swaziland when they arrive and infiltrated back into the country and making sure that they are safely infiltrated back into the country.  Besides that, what else were you involved in?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Apart from that, my duties in Swaziland and Botswana were to recruit people inside the country and to train them.

MR BERGER: What ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I didn't quite catch that Mr Berger.  You said "One of my duties was to recruit people inside the country and to train them."  To recruit people inside Botswana and Swaziland, or did you come across to South Africa to recruit people and then take them for training, what was the position?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That would depend on the situation.  What I'm saying is that sometimes it would happen that the people that you knew in Swaziland, we would send them into the country and they would come, we would send them to certain people and that was the way that we used to recruit people inside the country.   Sometimes there were people inside the country, those that we knew and then we would keep contact with them through telephones and that would enable us to recruit them and make way for them to come into Swaziland or Botswana.  For example, my brother.  I phoned my brother and then he came over to Botswana and then he decided himself what kind of job that he would do and then he went on with that job.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.  You spoke about training of people.  What did your training of them entail?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That would depend on whether, that time when we talked to that people, what kind of job he was prepared to do.  If he wanted to transport the weapons into the country, then we would give him that job.  If he wanted some training, so that he comes back into the country to come and fight, then we'll give him that training.  That would depend on the individual person.

MR BERGER: Besides training people to fight in the country or to bring arms and ammunition into the country, was there any other training that you were involved in?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That was the only job I was doing.

MR BERGER: Now you left Swaziland in 1984 and you were then redeployed to Botswana.  Would it be correct to say that you then continued in Botswana, the work that you were doing in Swaziland?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You say in your application at page 89, if you would have a look there, bundle A1 page 89, paragraph 9(a)(i),  do you have it?  Page 89.

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, I do see it.

MR BERGER: You say
"During my time in exile, I was active in Special Operations and I ensured that weapons were brought into the country.  I participated in training cadres who were to be infiltrated into the country."
Now the bringing of weapons into the country and the training of cadres, that was done in Swaziland and Botswana, is that right?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That's correct.  The nature of the job that we were doing forced us to train the people in Swaziland and Botswana.

MR BERGER: Then you say
"I also trained people specifically in the preparation of car bombs and assisted in the procurement and preparation of materials to this end."
Now the training of people in the preparation of car bombs, was that done in Swaziland or Botswana, or both?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: In training the people to make car bombs, we gave them that training in Botswana.

MR BERGER: When you speak about the procurement and preparation of materials for car bombs, would that be in Botswana?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: When was the first time, if you can remember, when was the first time that you met comrade Gordon and comrade Robert?  If you can't remember the year, then can you remember where it was that you met them?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: To tell the honest truth, I would say it was in 1985 when I met them.

MR BERGER: Would that have been in Botswana?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Now, if you'd look at your statement, B4, paragraph 15, you say there
"On a number of occasions, I provided comrade Robert with materials.  I also gave him political education as well as theoretical training in respect of the materials with which he was provided."
This would have been during the period 1985 to 1986, am I correct?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: Can you recall what sort of material you provided comrade Robert with, on these various occasions?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Although I would not be certain about that because my job in Swaziland, I worked with quite a number of people there and I gave different materials to different individuals while I was there.

MR BERGER: That was in Swaziland.  And what about in Botswana, was the situation the same?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, that was the same even in Botswana.  I would not be able to tell what type of material that I gave to him.  Like I've already said that I gave different material to different individuals.

MR BERGER: Can you recall what sort of theoretical training you gave Mr McBride?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: What I remember is that I trained him how to use the AK47 and the pistol, the grenades, the limpet mines and also how to make the car bomb and how to prepare oneself when you are going to use the car bomb.  As far as the political education was concerned, the emphasis was on making sure that when you gave him the material, he won't use that material the way he wanted to, but he would follow the policy of the ANC in as far as using that material, so I told him that he should that material the way he was supposed to do, in line with the policy of the ANC.

MR BERGER: When you say that you gave comrade Robert instruction on how to use the materials in line with the policies of the ANC and so that he didn't use it the way that he wanted to, are you saying that he wanted to use it differently, or are you saying that so that he would not use it according to his own dictates, but that he would use it according to the principles and policies of the ANC, it's not clear what you meant by that.

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: May you please repeat the question?  I did not understand the question.

JUDGE PILLAY: When you provided those materials, that you accepted that those to whom you gave it would use it in a disciplined fashion in terms of the policies of the ANC and its arms struggle.

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Did comrade Robert ever indicate to you that he would use the materials in any way other than in accordance with the principles of the ANC?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: What I asked him was only to ensure that he was carrying out what I had told him.  That was not only happening to comrade McBride, it also happened to other people that I had trained.

MR BERGER: Please continue.