Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-10-03

MR FORD: This wasn't an ordinary everyday order, Mr Du Toit, this was an exceptional order, was it not?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Definitely, yes.

MR FORD: Hadn't you ever been required to participate in the murder or the killing of your colleagues before?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: No.

MR FORD: Well, then wasn't this a different situation?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: These people, according to my perception, and I am not trying to justify it here, is all I want to say, is according to my perception, they were on the point of or involved in treason, and that would prejudice the information we got.

MR FORD: You were aware of the drastic measures that were available in so far as the detention of individuals are concerned, at that stage?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: I did not have intimate knowledge, but I knew about that. I knew the guidelines. I did not have intimate knowledge of the guidelines.

MR FORD: You were just somebody following orders, Mr Du Toit, is that what you are saying?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Perhaps not as simple as that, but I felt I received instructions and I had to do it.

MR FORD: And you weren't going to question those orders either?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: No.

MR FORD: Can I just have a moment, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Whose orders were you following?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Chairperson, I accepted that I was following the instructions of the people from head office.  This instruction was not given directly to me.  We played a supporting role.  We supported the activities of the security branch, or no instruction came directly from an executive officer to me. It would come via the person or persons who had a specific need and through that channel it was brought to my attention.

CHAIRPERSON: The only person, if I understand you correctly, who approached you, was Col De Kock?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The only person who had approached you was Col De Kock?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And I don't understand what - what other possible source was there which you regarded as source, the source of orders to you?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Col De Kock was accompanied by Mr Nieuwoudt from the Eastern Cape.  He quickly explained all the circumstances surrounding this case and there was no reason to question this instruction. I accepted that they got the necessary clearance from head office to execute this.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Col De Kock give you an order?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: No, it was not an instruction, it was just a request.

CHAIRPERSON: That is what is worrying me.  Did Nieuwoudt give you an order?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Who gave you an order to go and kill those people?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: I accepted that this instruction came from De Kock's commanding officer.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear you?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: I accepted that this instruction came from De Kock's commanding officer, and it was cleared on a higher level.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you for a moment think that somebody had said to De Kock go and get Wybrandt du Toit?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Yes, in total, that was what I believed.

CHAIRPERSON: On what basis?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: Well, Col De Kock conveyed it to me like that, that he came from head office, with the request that these people should be handled in this way, and we were requested to play a role in this regard, regarding the elimination.

CHAIRPERSON: I accept that De Kock would have told you that the operation itself, I am talking about the operation, I am not talking about his instructions to you. I accept that (indistinct) this operation had been cleared by head office, but are you saying that De Kock also said to you the head office said that or somebody has said that you, Wynand du Toit, must also come?

INTERPRETER: There is something wrong with the microphones.

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: No.  I have mentioned previously that the instruction was that the technical component that they should become involved. I, myself as a person was not mentioned per se. I have tried to explain previously that after they have left my office, I tried to determine who were available. I could have used two other people and in that instance I would have given the instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) between you and Col De Kock, to me seems to be somewhat different, for obvious reasons. The relationship between him, Ras and Vermeulen and (indistinct).  The impression I get is that Col De Kock came and requested you to assist.

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: That is correct, but he also told me that he had a mandate to do that.  That was how this executive instructions worked.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps that's why Mr Ford is asking you if Col De Kock merely came and requested you to come and assist.  Could you - why didn't you question that?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: In the spirit of the times during which we operated.  Today it might be easy, after all this time, it is easy to say, but in the spirit of those times, I want to say unequivocally that there was a very strong bond of trust between the security people, and for that reason I could not question that.

CHAIRPERSON: That might have been so, but one gets the impression that the request or the approach by De Kock was such that you could without any consequences, have said to him I'm afraid, I don't want to eliminate some of my colleagues.

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: I think one of the previous applicants previously said I don't think it would have been suitable to refuse such an instruction.  It would have exposed you as somebody who could not be trusted, if you did not want to participate in the counter-measure against the revolutionary struggle.

CHAIRPERSON: If by the word "opdrag", you mean instructions or orders then we are just moving in circles.  Maybe I should just leave it there.

MR FORD: Thank you.  May I continue, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe ...

MR FORD: I'm sorry, I didn't hear you, Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: This is a convenient point to adjourn, I think, until two o'clock.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: (Still under oath).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ford?

MR FORD: (cont)
	Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Du Toit, just carrying on from the questions asked by the Chairman. It is now clear from what you say that not only or shall we put it this way, that you weren't in fact following orders, following an order, you were complying with a request, no more than that?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: I would have regarded it as an order in these circumstances.

MR FORD: Was Mr De Kock entitled to give you orders?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: He conveyed the order from headquarters to me and made it clear to me that this matter had been cleared and headquarters, and that he had been referred to me by headquarters.

MR FORD: And if I understand your evidence further, that the only reason you wouldn't have questioned such an order, was that this might have led to some mistrust, in so far as you were concerned?

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: No, I couldn't say that that was the only reason. I say it was one of the reasons. I had no reason to doubt it.

MR FORD: I must just put it to you, Mr Du Toit, that in regard to this section of your evidence, it does not appear that the decision to assist in the taking of lives, was as difficult a decision for you as you made it out to be in your evidence in chief.

WYBRANDT ANDREAS LODEWIKUS DU TOIT: I have said before it is never an easy decision to take.