Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.   Now, besides yourself and Selahla, who were the other Black policemen who were involved in the security branch?

CHAIRPERSON: Where, please?

ADV MEMANI: In Pretoria, in the Pretoria area.

HENDRIK BOKABA: People who were members?  Do you mean people who were members of the security branch in Pretoria?

ADV MEMANI: Yes.

HENDRIK BOKABA: Explain to you, that is a question which appeared from the Chairperson, that is Advocate de Jager.  I did mention many of them then he said to me I should stop and say I've mentioned many names, I thing they're enough.

ADV MEMANI: Black people?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Yes, Black people, I did mention them.

ADV MEMANI: Now, will you enumerate the other Black people who were involved in security branch in the Pretoria area?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Should I repeat again?

ADV MEMANI: Yes.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I will start at Attridgeville.  Sonti Makamu, Warrant Officer Sonti Makamu, working in Attridgeville, Robbie Maginta in Attridgeville and he was joined by Lesley Mogosi in Attridgeville, David Madou, Freemont Mampuru.  Then I'll go to Shweshanguwe - Shweshanguwe I mentioned Tiwi Mushwan, Jabu Gompa, Jantjie Mhaxhle, Adjudant Semine.  Then I will go to Mamelodi - that's myself and Selahla and Shangwani.  They've already left in the police - from the police.  I forgot Mr Masilesa, he was a member of the security police, Jerry Majeni, Kenny More, Smuts Matibula.  I would even mention people from other sections.  There were many whom I'm able to mention.

ADV MEMANI: And there was not bad blood between yourself and Ngo?

HENDRIK BOKABA: How can I hate him because we never fought, I didn't know him, where he came from, I never drank liquor with him, he was not my friend.  I would put it that way.

ADV MEMANI: And today, if you admitted that you were involved in these activities, you would be in trouble with the law?

HENDRIK BOKABA: If I took part humbly, I would never deny because I'm not against Ngo's application for amnesty.  I would not dispute that I
took part in those incidents which he mentioned.  This is the time for the truth, everybody should tell truth of what he has done, to hide doesn't help.  If I took part in what Ngo has done - I've nothing against Mr Ngo, I agree and say yes, we did those things together.  I would never dispute that I worked with him or I didn't.  I didn't take part in what he mentioned.

ADV MEMANI: Yes, but in order - you don't just tell the truth and that's it, you must tell the truth by applying to the Amnesty Committee and if you don't apply to the Amnesty Committee you remain in trouble with the law.

HENDRIK BOKABA: This is my application for amnesty in regard to things I've done.  What you explained to me and say I don't tell the truth, I don't know what you want me to tell this Committee of extra things I've done because I say what Ngo said I was involved in - in those things he mentioned, it's a lie.  I didn't take part, I was never involved in what - in these incidents he mentioned.

ADV MEMANI: But Ngo - I think there something wrong with the mikes today - but Ngo didn't have any personal motive for attacking the house of Louisa Mbongo and Nono Gint's house.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I do not know those people myself.

ADV MEMANI: And you deny involvement because you realise that if you admit, you'll be liable to a criminal prosecution and possible
conviction and sentenced for a long period.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I do not agree.  Let me explain it to you, I have already explained before this Commission that I worked in Mamelodi.  There's somewhere here where Ngo states that somebody was shot and somebody fell down and left.  People who worked in Mamelodi knew me and they would have known that it was myself and I could have been arrested with Ngo because the case would be reported.  To shoot a person point blank during the day - that would reach the police and they would know that Hendrik Bokaba shot that person and I would be arrested.

ADV MEMANI: Except that we know that the security branch was influential at the time and often they got away with most heinous crimes.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I do not know how to answer, I've already answered that ...[intervention]

ADV MEMANI: You don't have an answer.
	Mr Chairman, I've come to the end of my questions but I would like to know if there are any instructions from my client regarding questions which we might have asked.  May I approach him?

CHAIRPERSON: How long are we going to be now?  Why didn't you take instructions over the week-end before we started again on Monday morning?

ADV MEMANI: We did take instructions.  What I'm saying is - the mike's seems to be off - but what I'm saying is that there might be instructions arising from the answers we got since the adjournment.

ADV DE JAGER: How long would you require?

ADV MEMANI: It's a matter of walking to him and finding out if he's got anything ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Go and do it.

ADV MEMANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyone else who desires to put any questions?

MR BRINK: No thanks.

MR DU PLESSIS: I have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

MR STANDER: I have no questions thank you, Mr Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

MR VISSER: Visser on record.  Mr Chairman, we have no questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: After Mr Ngo approached you as you say he did, that he was interested in joining the security branch, you felt that you should take him to Loots?

HENDRIK BOKABA: That is so.  I explained to him that I will arrange for
an appointment with Colonel Loots.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you have personal about him yourself as to his suitability or otherwise?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I didn't have any knowledge about him.  What led me to believe that he could work with us, was when he stated that he was an informer at the Bloemfontein security branch and now he wants to come and work with us.  It is a fact that Colonel Loots stated that we needed staff at Mamelodi and I decided not to stand in his way.  I told Colonel Loots and he was the person who would have a final decision after holding the interview with Ngo.  And I could not scrutinize him - what he stated was the truth or not.  Briefly, that is what I would state.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Didn't Colonel Loots ask you to motivate - whether to motivate or not?  Do you just come and say, well I got somebody yesterday, he approached me, he said he once worked as an informer and did he just say, well bring him in or did he ask you whether you knew this person, what is his history and so on?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Yes, I did explain to him that this person told me that he was an informer in Bloemfontein but he didn't require a further explanation about the person, then he said I must bring him in.  I told myself that Colonel Loots would scrutinize him.  I was still new in the field and I wouldn't tell what kind of a person they needed.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You didn't ask him where he had worked before or whether he had worked for the security branch before - Mr Ngo?

CHAIRPERSON: He said ...[inaudible]

HENDRIK BOKABA: No, he had just told me that he was an informer.  He told me that he was an informer, I didn't go into details as how he was handled, how he was paid and other things - I don't want to lie, I didn't ask him such things.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So, with regard to involvement in the security police in Bloemfontein, all he told you or all that you knew before you went to see Captain Loots was that Mr Ngo had been an informer?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: How many people stayed at the barracks at Mamelodi?

HENDRIK BOKABA: The barracks at Mamelodi was a double-storey building.  There were a lot of divisions, murder and robbery squad, liquor squads - those who came from outside Mamelodi stayed there.  I can say more than 500 approximately 500, we were quite a lot.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.