Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR JOSEPH: Is that correct?  Now, I have reminded you about telling the Commission only of matters that you saw with your own eyes.  Correct?  You remember that?  However, the Commission will take evidence of hearsay matters, that is matters that have been told to you, matters that you have not seen or witnessed with your own eyes.  Was anything told to you or did you hear from anybody anything that related to the treatment of Stompie while you were away at the doctor? Was anything told to you about Stompie while you were away at the doctor?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No.

MR JOSEPH: Did you see Stompie the following morning?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Did any doctor or any person visit Stompie with a view to assisting him from a medical point of view?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes, Dr Asvat came.

MR JOSEPH: And do you know what Dr Asvat said?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: When he came he went to Mrs Mandela's room, sitting room, you know, the sitting room.

MR JOSEPH: Yes.  And?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: And then after that he went to check Stompie. They brought Stompie in the waiting room and then the doctor he check him.

MR JOSEPH: Did you see the doctor check him?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: Did the doctor say anything to Mr, Mrs Mandela about the condition?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: What did he say?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: He say who beat the boy like this.  I cannot remember what he reply Mrs Mandela.

MR JOSEPH: Did the doctor suggest ... (intervention).

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: But the doctor asked, he say who has beat the boy like this.

MR JOSEPH: Ja.  Did the doctor suggest anything in regard to treating the young boy?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: What did he suggest?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: He should be taken to the hospital.

MR JOSEPH: Okay.  Now, if you turn, you have the affidavit in front of you, do you?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR JOSEPH: You turn to the last page of the affidavit, members of the Commission, may I ask you or invite you to turn to the last page of the affidavit.  You should find a sketch.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just intervene here.  This is the whole question of language.  I know you have some inconvenience, but I want to be quite certain and I must be quite certain you are happy to give your evidence in English or do you want to speak in Zulu?  Now, you should be free and say exactly and now we will not change from now on.  Do you want to speak in Zulu?  He will speak in English, you will hear the translation in Zulu in your ear, but I would suggest that you speak in the language in which you are most comfortable.  Now, if it is English, that is all right, but I would suggest that it probably would be better if it was another language.  What language do you want to use?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: It is fine when my attorney speaks in English, because I get the Zulu interpretation.

CHAIRPERSON: Which language do you want to use yourself?  Zulu or English?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I will use Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: And do not worry, he will be translated.  Now, I think you have to put it, number three.  You have got it in number three?  Right you are.

MR VALLY: . . . I understand it to be a typographical error, it would be the last line on Page 36, on Page 11, Paragraph 36. Page 11, Paragraph 36, the last line it reads "do a five hour slob" that I understand is a typographical error it should be a "five minute" and I think it is "jog".
 After, sorry, we now go to this sketch which appears at the very last page of the affidavit, do you have it?.

MR CEBUKHULU: Yes.

MR VALLY: Now this is a sketch of - what is it a sketch of?

UNKNOWN: For the accident. It is an accident sketch.

MR VALLY: An accident sketch, OK. Is this, I can read words "Main House Garage" is this a sketch of a house?

MR CEBUKHULU: Yes, it is true.

MR VALLY: Whose house appears in this sketch?

MR CEBUKHULU: It is Winnie's house.

MR VALLY: Fine. Now, I will come back to this sketch in a moment. That evening do you remember whether Mr Richardson was there?

MR CEBUKHULU: Yes.

MR VALLY: Did you see Mr Richardson have a conversation with anybody or speak to anybody that is of importance for the Commissioner for the Commission?

MR CEBUKHULU: Yes.

MR VALLY: Who did he speak to?

MR CEBUKHULU: He spoke to Winnie.

MR VALLY: And what did he say to Winnie that was important?

MR CEBUKHULU: He said, Winnie said to Richardson, please repeat your question.

MR VALLY: Let's start all over again. I am asking you about matters which are of importance to the Commission, you know what they are investigating. Did Mr Richardson speak to anybody that evening, when I say speak to anybody, I mean speak to somebody which you witnessed the conversation. Did you hear him tell anybody something?

MR CEBUKHULU: No.

MR VALLY: Did he speak to Stompie at all?

MR CEBUKHULU: No.

MR VALLY: You have attached this plan of the house to this affidavit for a particular reason, is that correct?

MR CEBUKHULU: Yes.

MR VALLY: What is that reason?

MR CEBUKHULU: It is about the death of a person.

MR VALLY: Who is the person?

MR CEBUKHULU: Namely Sisto(?)

MR VALLY: Once again, please only tell what you witnessed with your own eyes, what you saw with your own eyes. Are you able to assist this Commission by tendering evidence, direct evidence relating to the death of Stompie?

MR CEBUKHULU: I saw her killing Stompie. I am referring to Winnie.

MR VALLY: Can I just interrupt now. You pick up your hand and you pointed at Mrs Mandela, you have been sitting in this Commission and we understand the emotions and passions that run high. Would you please continue to give your evidence without pointing fingers and just articulating what is in your mind, by only speaking and look in my direction or the direction of the Commission. OK.

MR CEBUKHULU: Yes. I am sorry.

MR VALLY: You say you witnessed the death of Stompie. Correct?

MR CEBUKHULU: Yes, I witnessed.

MR VALLY: Where did the death of Stompie take place?

MR CEBUKHULU: In Winnie's house.

MR VALLY: Would you turn to the sketch that you have made of Winnie's house and indicate to the Commission whereabouts in what you call Winnie's house this particular incident occurred.

MR CEBUKHULU: This took place where, in the room where there was kids, where the Jacuzzi, in the Jacuzzi room.

MR VALLY: The Jacuzzi room? Is the Jacuzzi not in the outside?

MR CEBUKHULU: Yes.

MR VALLY: If you look at the map again, you have there a rectangular square and that has written the words "Main House" that is what anybody would understand by Main House, that is where the household lived, is that correct?

MR CEBUKHULU: Yes, that is correct.

MR VALLY: Steps going down is that into the open air?

MR CEBUKHULU: Yes.

MR VALLY: And Jacuzzi, that is in the open air?

MR CEBUKHULU: Yes.

MR VALLY: OK. On what day did you witness the killing of Stompie. Do you remember the day?

MR CEBUKHULU: It was at night.

MR VALLY: What was the date was it the 1st of December, the 1st of June, you have told the Commission that Stompie came to the house on the 29th December and was assaulted, now how many days after his arrival at the house, after the initial assault took place, did you witness the death of Stompie?

MR CEBUKHULU: Two or three days.

MR VALLY: After the 29th December 1988.

MR CEBUKHULU: Yes.

MR VALLY: Was it during the daytime or was it at night that the assault . . .

MR CEBUKHULU: It was at night.

MR VALLY: What time at night?

MR CEBUKHULU: It was at night, I don't quite remember the time.

MR VALLY: OK. Just try and be of assistance, was it sometimes people refer to night time as actually being 2 'o clock in the morning or night time being 9 'o clock in the evening, try and assist this Commission.

MR CEBUKHULU: It was after midnight because I was sleeping.