Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-26

MR DE KLERK: If I understand you correctly the person who took the statement, listened to the story and then told you: "Well that is not important, we don't have time for that, I'm not going to note it"?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: What I'm explaining is that when he took the statement there was little time.  I think this is the second statement because I made two statements.  I'm not really sure which is the first and which is the second one.  The first statement I made I was still in shock and I made another one thereafter.

MR DE KLERK: When you - did you testify at the criminal trial, Sir?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: Yes.

MR DE KLERK: Did you testify regarding this incident at the butchery?  The reason why I'm asking is, when I perused the judgment I did not see that Judge Combrink made any mention of this part of the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it relevant?

MR DE KLERK: Mr Chairman, I think it's relevant regarding the evidence that is led ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The accused's version was a complete denial, was it not?

MR DE KLERK: Yes.  The relevance to this application today, Mr Chairman, is that it seems that the applicant testified that there was something, somebody swore at him or told him some bad words in town ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but he hadn't said that to anybody in May of this year, had he?  At the time of his trial he hadn't said it.  This is just something he's come with for his application, isn't it?

MR DE KLERK: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So would you have expected the police or anyone else to be in the least interested in what people had been doing that morning?  If you look at all the statements we've got, they all start at two or three in the afternoon.

MR DE KLERK: I accept that, Mr Chairman.  Maybe the witness can just explain then I won't take it further.

MR LAX: He has explained.  With the greatest of respect, Mr de Klerk, he said
"The policeman told me to focus on the incident, that's what I did."

CHAIRPERSON: And talking about your condition, were you shot?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: No, I was not shot, but I just had a muscle.

CHAIRPERSON: And you had to go to hospital yourself?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: Yes, I did.

MR DE KLERK: Let's just quickly, one or two questions regarding the incident.  You listened to the evidence of the applicant, he testified that he shot at the people that were there under the tree, he did not really look at who he was shooting at, he just indiscriminately shot at the people in front of him.  Will you agree with that?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: I would not agree with that, because you can't claim not to see a person in front of you.  When he arrived he spoke to these people, he asked them a question and when they were about to respond to him he then started shooting.  He did see who these people were.

MR DE KLERK: Did he call the names and say: "Ndovela (or whoever) I see you, I'm going to shoot you.  You and you, I know you're ANC, I'm going to shoot you", or did he just shoot?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: As the applicant said he knew me, he knows me.  We had been together in town before.  There was no way he could not have seen me.  I don't think you can possibly say that you do not see a person that you know perfectly well.

MR DE KLERK: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DE KLERK

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I just have one question.
	In your answers to the questions by Mr de Klerk, you have stated that you were with Brian Bazely and then when you went to the taxi rank you found two other people, who were these people?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: We met Ndovela's son as well as somebody whose surname is Zulu.  I was seeing these boys for the first time.  They knew Brian and because they knew Brian, we all went together.

MS MTANGA: From there did you all go to the place where you had, to Brian Bazely's girlfriend's place, all of you?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: Yes, we all went there.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if you heard the evidence of the applicant, but as I understood it he said that in this area the ANC district and the IFP district, if I can call them that, were divided by the road, is that so?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: If that is so.  The applicant knew where we stayed and we normally used to pass his house when we went to town and the applicant would also pass my home when he went home.  I am not aware if there were any demarcation lines, I would just travel all around the area.  I don't remember there being any borders to demarcate the area.

CHAIRPERSON: No, it wasn't demarcate, but it was - this tree that you were sitting under, which is outside the, where Happiness Mtombi Mtolo lives, wasn't it?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: Let me put it this way.  This person lived near where that tree was.

CHAIRPERSON: And was it an area where ANC supporters lived?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: As I mentioned before, I am not aware whether the people who stayed in that area were ANC or IFP.  It would not be easy for me to answer that question because I do not know how many were ANC or how many belonged to the IFP.

MR LAX: Did you know the political affiliation of the applicant at that time?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: At that time I would not claim that I knew what organisation he was affiliated to, because at the time I was no longer residing in Port Shepstone, but I was aware that at the time the areas were now being divided into IFP or ANC strongholds, but I did not care about that, I regarded him as my brother.  That is why I managed to talk to him and when he came to chat to us when we were braaing meat, I chatted to him and we shared the meat.  I was not interested in his political affiliation.

MR LAX: Did you see the applicant at the taxi rank before you came back?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: No, I did not.

MR LAX: Did you Masa Sandile Khambule at all on that day?  Do you know this person?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: I do not know him.

MR LAX: Now what is - how long would it take from the taxi rank in Port Shepstone, travelling by taxi to the place where you were at the flats?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: Are you referring to the distance or the actual time that it would take to travel the distance?

MR LAX: The question was quite simple.  How long would it take you to travel from town to the flats in time, I didn't say how far was it, I said how long would it take you.

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: I am not sure how long it would take because the taxi stops at several points before it arrives at the place.

MR LAX: But would it take you an hour, would it take you half an hour, would it take you 15 minutes?  We just want approximations.

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: I would estimate that it would be less than an hour, about 15 minutes or 30, depending on how often the taxi stops.

MR LAX: Do you have any recollection of how long it took you on that day?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: No.

MR LAX: Do you recall that you left round about 1 o'clock, when the butchery closed and the other shops closed?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: ...(no English interpretation)

MR LAX: Just listen to the question before you start answering, I'm not finished.  You also recalled that this incident happened somewhere round about 3 o'clock.  That's a period of two hours approximately, so what I'm asking you is, by what time would you have been at the flats? - as far as you can remember.