Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

BISHOP STOREY: Well, it was just a good thing that, as Presiding Bishop of the Methodist Church, from a pastoral point of view, Dr Mogoba, Bishop Mogoba was, had planned a visit to Mr Nelson Mandela.  Now, I had been told that Mr Ayob, earlier, had conveyed to Mr Mandela the essence of the facts and evidence about what had happened in the abduction and the things that followed.  I wasn't sure whether that had, in fact, been conveyed to Mr Mandela, and it just seemed that important to bring Mr Mandela up to date, in any case.  So, I provided Dr Mogoba with a 14-point list of information which I hoped he could convey to Mr Nelson Mandela, and the first question would be, did Mr Mandela get a memorandum of events from Ismail Ayob prepared for the Crisis Committee and containing church evidence?  If he did, well then, this was irrelevant.  These are the notes I've made of what I asked Dr Mogoba to do.
 Would he convey to Mr Mandela how deeply painful this has been for the church, our pastoral concern for him and Winnie, and we hope that he would see from the evidence that we didn't have any option, that events have made a simple pastoral approach impossible.  One, we knew of the abduction and almost certain murder of Stompie [end of tape side 3A] ... January. We kept it out of the media or the SAP until the story was broken by the Weekly Mail on the 20th of January.  Two, we consulted from the very beginning with the community, who asked that they be left to handle it.  
 Perhaps, I'm sorry, I need, just by way of background to this, to say one other thing.  I had heard either via Mr Ayob or Mr Haysom or somebody who had seen Mr Mandela, that Mr Mandela was concerned about my actions, and he was asking the question why could not Bishop Peter have acted, have dealt with this matter pastorally, rather than in the way he is dealing with it?  So, this explains some of what I'm trying to justify here.
 Second, we consulted from the very beginning with the community, who asked that they be left to handle it.  Thirdly, four or five meetings to discuss the ways of getting the youths back, and then, through the good offices of Ayob, and then we sought the influence of both Nelson and Tambo.  On the 16th there was the release and we believed that their intervention was decisive, and I wanted him to be thanked for that.  On the fourth, the fourth point, on the same evening the youths freely admitted, on the 16th, that they had been abducted and held and beaten and Stompie, probably, killed.  Five, we prepared a memorandum for his eyes and we believe Ayob kept it from him.  Six, through the Crisis Committee we requested a meeting with Mrs Mandela.  The first meeting was called off, the second she didn't arrive.  Seven, we sent a lawyer to Oliver Tambo to brief him and seek advice.  Oliver Tambo was adamant that Nelson must be made aware of what was happening.  Eight, we still didn't involve the police.  She did by setting the youth to lay a complaint against Paul Verryn.  Nine, the first press statement was short and crisp and the only, and we only released it when she attacked the church.  We didn't mention her or the venue of the abduction.  Ten, since then she has blamed factions in the SACC, white clerics, the SACC, informers in the National Democratic Movement, and Paul Verryn's sexual behaviour.  Eleven, about Verryn, the only evidence against him is from a compromised witness and, in any case, Verryn has an alibi.  He was away when this sex attack was supposedly took place.
 The church, I'm not sure what it means, the church colluding with SAP although she called the police.  I'm not sure, I, what that quite means.

MR VALLY: If you look at underneath the typed version, there are your handwritten notes.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes, what does it say here.  Ja.  I think it means, simply, that the church is now having to co-operate with the SAP although she, in fact, first called the police.  Twelve, other contradictions.  She has admitted slapping the boys in an ITV interview and church delegate, she, and denied it and blamed Jerry. Other contradictions are that Stompie wasn't there, he ran away, he is now alive.  This is the latest in many incidents she is implicated in high-level common-law crime.  And then the 14th point I made to Mr Mandela that our current stance was, not responding, if at all possible, to the attacks made.
 Dr Mogoba conveyed this, the essence of those points to Mr Mandela, who sent a message to me in reply via Dr Mogoba.  Dr Mogoba simply related to me his conversation, and the conversation is that Mr Mandela said,
"The fault is hers. I owe an apology to the church, but why could not Bishop Peter have come closer to her instead of it being discussed in the press?"
Mogoba says,
"I testified to attempts to meet her, and he, in fact, was present on the day that she failed to appear."
Mandela says,
"I owe Peter an apology for what I've been thinking. It is an ugly situation."
Mogoba says,
"She is the one who broke press silence."
Mandela,
"Yes, I see."
Mogoba, 
"We are under great pressure from community and church for answers on the whole issue."
Mandela,
"How would it be if I advise her to call a press conference, a public apology, I've done wrong, seek forgivenness and want to begin again?"
Mogoba, 
"It has merits, but it may be too late."
Mandela, 
"I thank the church for what it has done over all the years."

MR VALLY: Thank you, Bishop Storey, I'm through.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Semenya.

MR SEMENYA: Bishop, I've been listening to your account of events, and it seems to me, because of the forum in which we are it is possible to testify about matters for which you have no personal knowledge.  There are various aspects of your evidence where you are quoting what would have been told to you, and, I think, in this type of forum that that's what happens.  I will not attempt to deal with those issues for which you have no personal knowledge.  However, and I will probably deal with those issues when those individuals, who would have communicated them to you, come and testify, but, however, let me attempt to deal with you about the general aspect and tenure of the evidence that you give.
 Now, as the saying goes, hindsight is exact science.  Let us talk about these events in 1988, '89 and the milieu in which they were happening.  Am I correct that even you, as a community leader, if you had learnt that there were children who were being sodomised in a manse, you would have taken that as a serious problem, would you not?

BISHOP STOREY: I didn't hear the first part of that question.

MR SEMENYA: No, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Just wait a bit.  Peter, you can use the ... (intervention)

BISHOP STOREY: Oh.

CHAIRPERSON: ... headphones, then you can, if you use channel two.

BISHOP STOREY: Sorry.

MR SEMENYA: No, what I meant is, even you, as a leader, Bishop, if you had had information that there are children who are being sexually molested, you would have taken that to be a serious problem.  Is that right?

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: And I think you would have done all you could to make sure that this difficulty does not visit the children?  Is that right?

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: And you would have summoned all type of help to try to bring relief to these type of children?  Is that right?

BISHOP STOREY: Well, I would have first tried to find out if it was true.

MR SEMENYA: Correct, but, again, we know the milieu in which this was happening.  We, if, we know today, we didn't know then that Jerry Richardson would own up to having killed Stompie.  Is that right?

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: And if we knew that Jerry Richardson is a police informant in 1988, is it reasonable to expect that Mrs Mandela would not have stayed with Jerry Richardson?