Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-09-14

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wills.  Mr Magadi, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR MAGADI: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAGADI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR PATEL: Yes, yes, I do, Mr Chairman.  Mr Hlongwane, would it be correct to say firstly, that you were a sort of a commander of the IFP members in and around the Ermelo area?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: And being a commander of various people, you gave instructions for certain things to be done, would that be correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: Now, would it be correct to say that in issuing out these instructions you would not always be present when certain deeds were committed, would that be correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: And as a commander, the people that were under your command would report back to you as to what they had done, would that be correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR PATEL: Now, I've read your affidavit and I've considered the evidence that you've given this morning, and I can find no place either in your evidence nor in the affidavit where you accept responsibility for any of the deeds which were performed by your subordinates on your instructions.  Why is that so?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I will say it is my mistakes, but I know all the operations which were undertaken by the Black Cats from Ermelo to Davel, but I know of these incidents and I accept responsibility.

MR PATEL: For what period of time were you present and operating in the Ermelo area?

CHAIRPERSON: That includes your experiences in Davula?

MR PATEL: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: It is from 1990, if I'm not making a mistake, it's from 1990 to 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give an idea as to whether it was longer than a year and if so, how much longer than a year, or if it was shorter for how many months you were here?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Sir, if I remember well, I would say it will be a year or fourteen (14) months.

MR PATEL: What month was it in 1990 that you came to Ermelo?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Sir, maybe my lawyer might help, it's because it was during the time when the case of Christopher Zwane and the other person was finalised.

MR PATEL: Can you not remember the month?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I only remember the year.

MR PATEL: Was it early 1990 or late in the year, middle of the year?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: It was at the end of 1990.

MR PATEL: And what month in 1991 did you leave Ermelo, the Ermelo area?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I would say early 1990, it might be March or April or early 1991.

MR PATEL: So, if I understand you correctly, you came to this area towards the end of 1990 and left early 1991?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Let me try to correct here.  I arrived towards the end of 1990.  If I'm not mistaken in 1991, towards the end, I would say I arrive in 1990 and towards the end of 1991 I went back to KwaZulu-Natal.

MR PATEL: Subsequent to leaving this area in 1991 did you ever return to this area?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, I used to come but not on a work assignment.  It was just visiting the area.

MR PATEL: How often did you return to the area prior to your arrest?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I would say twice.

MR PATEL: In which years?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I would say it was May.  Between May and June.

MR PATEL: Would that be 1992, 1993, 1994?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: '92.  '92.

MR PATEL: All right.  In this period of fourteen (14) months that you were operative in the Ermelo area, how many missions would you say were executed by people under your command and not in your presence?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I won't have a specific figure, but I will say several times.  I don't have the figure, but I know of several operations that they reported to me and I also have to report to the higher structures.

MR PATEL: Yes.  Would you say that they executed an instruction of yours at least twice a month?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No, I can't put it that way because it's me who was given the task to kill the people in Ermelo.  So their only work was to go and do a reconnaissance or help me.  I will send them to go and look at the place, and sometimes I will delegate the work to go and do the work and have to report back to me after the work.

MR PATEL: All right.  Well, let's call it work.  The work that they did, how many times did they do this work?  An approximation, in the period of fourteen (14) months that they were under your command?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: The work that I still remember, it will be approximately five (5) or six (6).

MR PATEL: And am I correct in my understanding that your affidavit, as well as your evidence this morning is totally silent with regard to those incidents?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: That's correct.

MR PATEL: Listening to your evidence this morning, and considering your affidavit, I get a distinct feeling, Mr Hlongwane, that you're not disclosing everything to this Committee with regard to the incidents you were involved in.  Are you of the view that you've disclosed everything in so far as it related to you?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Sir, to answer you, I will say as I'm here I'm prepared to reveal all that I know that I can possibly remember.  However, if there is something that you know, you can put it to me and if I agree with it I will say I agree, if I don't, I will say I don't.

MR PATEL: All right.  Let me tell you what my first problem is, and this is lack of participation on the part of the people that accompany you.  I look at the first attack that you talk about in this area, and it's the attack on a shop.  You recollect that, where you shot into a shop?  Do you recollect that, and you were in the presence of China?  If you want to refer to your affidavit, it would be paragraph fifty four (54).

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, I can see that.

MR PATEL: You are in the presence of one China, and China does nothing, am I correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: It is as you stated, sir.

MR PATEL: Yes.  Then you have an attack on Mrs Shongwe.  Again, you're the person that does the deed and the only other thing that happens there is one Jomo leaves a petrol bomb lying on the floor.  Nobody else does anything active besides you.  Are you with me?  Do you understand the question?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I understand your question, but I think I've explained that I didn't say China was - I was armed with an M26 handgrenade.  I said this, but it's not written in the statement.  People who worked there, it was myself and China.  I said I entered the house and searched the house, and after the search we took the lady inside and we were searching throughout the rooms, and when we were in the kitchen I shot at her with the firearm and I said to China he must pull out the pin on the M26 and hit the house.

MR PATEL: Let me just interrupt you for a second.  I don't need you to repeat the whole story.  What I'm looking at here is purely a question of involvement, all right.  Your affidavit reads, forget for a moment what you said in your evidence this morning, your affidavit reads you did the shooting and Jomo left a petrol bomb on the floor, is that correct?  And the affidavit is in front of you if you want to confirm it, it's in paragraph fifty six (56) and fifty five (55).

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Sir, let me explain this to you.  I'm not disputing that that's how it's written.  I said when I was writing all these statements, but with regards to the Zini and December issues, it was at the time where I could remember everything because the police will help me to recollect exactly what happens.  I mean writing down and discussing things are two different things, therefore there should be a difference in the two.