Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR PIGOU: And from information received by the investigation unit, he was not provided with items such as football kit, video recorders, a video and a tape deck by yourself?

MR MOODLEY: Yes, I bought it for him - soccer kit and other equipment.

MR PIGOU: Is that out of the R10.000-00?

MR MOODLEY: That's correct, yes.

MR PIGOU: And the remainder of the money was left in Mr Richardson's possession?

MR MOODLEY: I wouldn't say the remainder of the money but he had bought cards, telephone cards and other gift items as well.

MR PIGOU: Did you get a receipt for this R10.000-00?

MR MOODLEY: From?

MR PIGOU: Mr Richardson.

MR MOODLEY: No, it wasn't R10.000-00 eventually, no.  I didn't give him cash as such - as a lump sum, he would ask me for telephone cards, he would ask me to buy him a gift, he asked me to buy the entire soccer kit with the permission of course of the commander of prison at the time.
 I had to first of all get the commander's permission and the commander himself first of all thought it was totally unfair that Richardson should buy this equipment for the prison, then they discussed it at the prison sports forum or whatever that they would accept this gift from Richardson to the sports club at the prison.

MR PIGOU: Did the investigation unit keep an account of money spent on Mr Richardson that this Commission would be able to look at to see what money was spent and to establish whether indeed that money was spent because Mr Richardson has said that he did not receive R10.000-00 and that he did not receive anything and would like that money.

MR MOODLEY: At the end of the whole thing I gave Richardson the full account of what has happened and he's taken the account with everything.

MR PIGOU: So, you don't have a copy of that account?

MR MOODLEY: No, I don't have a copy of it.

MR PIGOU: The police do not have a copy of an account of money spent on a convicted prisoner - R10.000-00 spent on a convicted prisoner, you don't have that receipt?

MR MOODLEY: No, but the prison authorities will be able to verify that.

MR PIGOU: They should be able to verity that?

MR MOODLEY: Yes.

MR PIGOU: Is that usual practice - to not keep accounts of this sort?

MR MOODLEY: This is unusual, it's never a usual thing - this doesn't happen everyday to anybody.

MR PIGOU: Yes, but Senior Superintendent Moodley, do you not usually - when you're paying informers, do you not normally keep some record of that?

MR MOODLEY: Yes, but the record is kept - that we paid the informer, that record we've got.

MR PIGOU: You don't keep receipts normally, they don't sign for the money or good received?

MR MOODLEY: We have a receipt for the money ...[indistinct] signed.

MR PIGOU: You do have that and is that available?

MR MOODLEY: Yes, that's available.

MR PIGOU: Okay, thank you.  In the investigation notebook - the computerised one which was given to the TRC by yourselves and Director Hesslinga, there's a note on page 30 I believe, where the mother of Kuki Zwane tells you that Zinzi told her that her child was in Lusaka and that she says that Kuki and Zinzi Mandela were good friends.   Senior Superintendent Moodley, did you ever attempt to take a statement from Zinzi Mandela in this regard?

MR MOODLEY: No, I didn't.

MR PIGOU: Could you tell us why not?

MR MOODLEY: Because I hadn't completed the investigation by then and still haven't completed the investigation.

MR PIGOU: So, the investigation is still outstanding?

MR MOODLEY: Yes.

MR PIGOU: And can you tell us what efforts are being made to pursue the killers of Kuki Zwane at this time?

MR MOODLEY: We're busy with, in fact about a month ago, I asked Director Molaba to look up certain people for me and he went up and he came back to me and he said he's traced one of them but the guy wouldn't talk to us as yet but he's going to talk to us.

MR PIGOU: Is Director Molaba the same person who's the Warrant Officer Molaba mention in the investigation diary?

MR MOODLEY: That's correct.

MR PIGOU: So Warrant Officer in 1995, Director in 1997?

MR MOODLEY: That's correct.

MR PIGOU: Thank you.
 Questions now for Director Hesslinga now please.  Director Hesslinga, what was your position and rank in 1989?

MR HESSLINGA: I was a Captain.

MR PIGOU: And at which unit were you based?

MR HESSLINGA: I was second in command of the murder and robbery squad at Protea in Soweto.

MR PIGOU: And was your commanding officer Colonel Oosthuizen?

MR HESSLINGA: That is the case Mr Chair.

MR PIGOU: And after the murder of Doctor Abu-Baker Asvat, were you put directly onto this case as the investigating officer?

MR HESSLINGA: That is the case Mr Chair.

MR PIGOU: Was that on the day itself of the murder or a few days after that?

MR HESSLINGA: If I recall correctly, I received the docket a day or two after the incident, however I was on the scene at the time of the murder on Doctor Abu -Baker Asvat.

MR PIGOU: ...[inaudible] in command of the murder and robbery unit at Protea, did you have sort of background knowledge of the alleged activities of the Mandela United Football Club?

MR HESSLINGA: Mr Chair, the only knowledge that I had with regard to the Mandela Soccer Team was that I investigated a case in which Mrs Mandela was the complainant that certain school children had set her house alight and the reason for this had been that certain members of the soccer club supposedly raped girls at a school in the area of Mrs Mandela's home.

MR PIGOU: Thank you, but apart from that, did you have a general knowledge, was there some sort of common parlance amongst the police in Soweto at that time, that around the activities of the Mandela United Football Club - your colleague to the right of you was investigating the disappearance of Lolo Sono and Stompie Sepei and so forth, you must have had some common understanding being second in-charge of the unit, you must have known what was going on.

MR HESSLINGA: Subsequently I obtained information with regard to the existence and activities of the soccer club.

MR PIGOU: Thanks, just briefly returning to the Dalywonga case that you were referring to where the house was burnt down, did Mrs Madikizela-Mandela personally lay the charge?

MR HESSLINGA: There was a docket opened with regard to arson but I cannot recall who the original complainant had been.  I attempted on several occasions to obtain a statement from Mrs Mandela, I visited her office in Diepkloof in Soweto, I attempted to wait for her at the University of the Witwatersrand where she was then a student or registered as a student but I was not able to track Mrs Mandela down.  I did not manage to obtain a statement from Mrs Mandela and the docket was then closed down at a later stage without any statement from Mrs Mandela.

MR PIGOU: My understanding is that by the 22nd of February 1989, the following information existed inside the Protea Murder and Robbery Unit - you had two statements from Tulani Dlamini, one taken by Paul Smuts and one taken by Gert Zeelie on the 17th and 18th of February respectively, both of those statements implicating Mrs Mandela in the death of Doctor Abu-Baker
Asvat.  
 You also had a statement on the 22nd of February from Katiza Cebekhulu in which he indicated that Doctor Asvat had examined Stompie Sepei and also during the course of that month, you had found Stompie Sepei's body, could you tell me whether the connections were made between these three cases and were there any attempts made to follow that up?