Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, I did not even discuss with Jerry anything, because we were tortured separately and we slept in different places.  We could only come together when we were taken to the hospital by the police.

MR SEMENYA: And you are saying on the third week, Maqina came to Kliptown and wanted his firearm from Mbatha.  Do you recall this?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No.  Maqina is not even here in Johannesburg.  He is not even in Johannesburg, he is at home.  How would I say that about Maqina if he was not even here.

MR SEMENYA: I just want to finally put it to you the version that you were ever, ever at Mrs Mandela's house, it is a lie.

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: That is the truth and the only truth.

MR SEMENYA: Whilst in prison, have you made any efforts to ask Mrs Mandela to pay you your R20 000-00?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, I made no effort.  The one that I was after was Botha Swala.

MR SEMENYA: When you are in prison, don't you try and write to Mrs Mandela, now really, it is eight years now, or whatever the time, I want my R20 000-00 back, I want my R20 000-00?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I did not even have her address, no details of her.  I wouldn't have written to Mrs Mandela.  The one that I was always after was Swala.  He is the one that I was after and I wanted him to give me money or get it.

MR SEMENYA: ... the one who owed you money was this Swala because even in your earlier statements and that of Cyril Mbatha, the killing of Dr Asvat was a pure criminal conduct intended to rob him of money, what is your response?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: .. chance to escape.  If it was robbery, Mbatha would have taken money because we had ample time.  That was not robbery.

MR SEMENYA: Mbatha tells us after the shooting you went inside too, is that right, to make sure that the Doctor is dead?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, I did go inside.  Yes.

MR SEMENYA: And you recall him trying to escape through the window?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I was outside when he shot twice.  I got inside and at the time when I was getting inside, he was already laying down dead.

MR SEMENYA: Mr Dlamini, there is no connection whatsoever between yourselves and Mrs Mandela around your killing of Dr Asvat?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: It is my first time to hear that from you.

MR SEMENYA: No further questions, thank you.

MR SEMENYA: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ladies and gentlemen, I am sure there are several of you who want to ask questions.  May I please remind you that you should state your name and who you represent for the record, thank you.  Please go ahead.

MR KADES: Normal Kades appearing for the Asvat family.  Mr Dlamini, you say in the statement submitted here this morning that you were born in 1969 and you schooled at Ngoma where you completed standard 5?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, that is true.

MR KADES: Can you read and write English?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Little bit, yes.

MR KADES: A little bit read or a little bit write, or a little bit of both?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I can read English, but writing it, I can write it a little bit.

MR KADES: Can you read a newspaper in English?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, I can read a newspaper in English.

MR KADES: Now, you were arrested on the 17th of February of 1989, is that correct?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Please repeat your question.

MR KADES: You were arrested on the 17th of February of 1989?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Although I don't remember the date.

MR KADES: And you made a statement on that day, was that within hours of your arrest?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Please repeat your question?

MR KADES: Was that within hours of your arrest?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.  I was arrested the previous day and made the statement the following day.

MR KADES: Oh.  Well the first statement I have is a statement dated the 17th of February 1989.  In that statement you implicate Mrs Mandela essentially the same story you told today.

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR KADES: And in the statement that you make thereafter, the statement that you make on the 18th of February, you again implicate Mrs Mandela?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR KADES: And you consistently as I understand, except for your court appearance, have consistently implicated Mrs Mandela when you have made statements, is that correct?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR KADES: The R20 000-00 that you say was due to come to you, it was half to be paid to Mbatha and half was to be paid to you, is that correct?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR KADES: And who was to collect the money from Mrs Mandela?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: All of us, including Botha was supposed to go fetch the money from Mrs Mandela.

MR KADES: Can you tell us a little more about Botha, where did you say he was killed, or where do you say he was shot?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I was already in prison and I heard from a person who visited me, that Botha was shot next to Baragwanath and he died there.

MR KADES: And he died?  And that was some time this year?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.

MR KADES: Thank you Mr Commissioner.

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, it is this year, recently.

MR KADES: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, who is next?  Nobody else?  Yes please?
MS ?: Good morning, I am Nicole (indistinct) on behalf of Mr Mbatha.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MS ?: Mr Dlamini, just going back to Botha, you say in your statement that you met him at the club house at the hostel, was that the first time you met him?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: That was not the first time I met him.  I knew him from a distance.  I used to see him.
MS ?: In your statement you also say that he was, he knew Mrs Mandela and members of the Football Club.  In your understanding how was he associated to Mrs Mandela?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I wouldn't know because he used to travel a lot.
MS ?: But were you satisfied that he knew Mrs Mandela well?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, I was satisfied.
MS ?: When was the first time that the amount of R20 000-00 was mentioned to you and by whom was it mentioned?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: The first time it was Mr Swala and we even went to Mrs Mandela and I heard it myself, the R20 000-00 issue.
MS ?: Did he mention it to you at the club house at the hostel in that meeting that you had?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: He did mention something about money, but not the sum of money or the amount.
MS ?: Because in your statement you mention that he specifically said that you would be paid R20 000-00 and that was at the hostel?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: He did talk about money, that it was a large amount of money, but never mentioned the sum of money as to how much it was.
MS ?: Another question I have.  I've got two statements here of yours.  In the statement that Mr Miller led you on this morning, you said that when you went to the house, the door was opened by an elderly lady, is that correct?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.
MS ?: However, in another statement you mention that it was opened by a young girl who spoke to you in Xhosa?  What is your comment on a young lady and an elderly lady?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I think there is a misunderstanding there, it was an elderly lady who was speaking in Xhosa, not a young girl.
MS ?: So this statement where it was a young girl, is incorrect then?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, that statement is incorrect, it is wrong.
MS ?: When you met Mrs Mandela with, according to you you were there with Botha and Mr Mbatha, what details did she give you specifically about the job that had to be done?  What did she tell you about this job that you were going to get paid R20 000-00 for?