Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-20

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you question why the bomb was not put into - what time and at what place it was going to be put in order to avoid any possibility of injury or death?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: If you were told that there was going to be a meeting between seven and nine and that on apparently doubtful information the bomb was let off at 8.30, would you have approved of it?

EDWARD WEBB: The project had been approved, the people on the ground had the final say as to what happened or not and they made the final decision.  I couldn't sit in Pretoria and say "Activate the bomb at a certain time", because the people on the ground could see what was happening and they reacted accordingly.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who reported to you that there were people who were injured?

EDWARD WEBB: I think it was Col Verster.

GEORGE BIZOS: If my memory serves me correctly, both Mr van Zyl and Mr Verster in their statements said that there was no-one injured.  Can you explain that?

EDWARD WEBB: No, it was reported to me that there were certain injuries.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any further questions, Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I'm looking through my notes.  If you would just give me a moment.

MR SIBANYONI: General Webb, was it ever said that the purpose of placing the bomb in the hall was to make it appear that it was by the organisation?

EDWARD WEBB: No.

MR LAX: You see we were told that was the reason why it had to go off reasonably soon after the meeting, so that it would point directly at the people who held the meeting and that it could be construed that they were responsible.

EDWARD WEBB: No.

MR LAX: That was never part of anything that you ever heard at that time?

EDWARD WEBB: No, definitely not.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Bizos.  Mr Williams.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairman, I've got questions for the witness, but I find myself in the same position where it's twenty to four ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think let's try to use as much time available to us as we have, because we will be missing - I'll make the announcement tomorrow, some time on Thursday morning.  So I think we should ...

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	General Webb, do I understand your testimony correct that Mr Verster came to you, he discussed the Early Learning project with you, he wanted your permission for that.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: You could give your permission, you could either say yes or no.

EDWARD WEBB: That's correct.

MR WILLIAMS: You authorised this project on the basis of certain information that was supplied to you, is that correct?

EDWARD WEBB: Correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Now you are the only applicant that states in your application that the Kewtown youth were going to start a fire in Khayelitsha.

EDWARD WEBB: I didn't see the applications of the other applicants.

MR WILLIAMS: Ja, but you've heard the testimony of Mr Slang van Zyl who as Mr Bizos indicated, was the primary source within your organisation who collated this information.  Would you accept as a fact that this information was incorrect?

EDWARD WEBB: Mr Slang van Zyl was not the only source of information.  Slang van Zyl gathered intelligence on the ground, conveyed that to the CCB intelligence bodies and there could have been different input into that channel.  Must I explain it again?

MR WILLIAMS: General Webb, but if I understand Mr van Zyl's evidence correct, then it is that he never received information that the Kewtown Youth Movement were going to start a fire in Khayelitsha.

EDWARD WEBB: But I think what the General's saying - correct me if I'm wrong, General, is that Mr van Zyl would get some evidence from the ground, he would relay it through his channels, it would end up with the intelligence people in the CCB, who would then do their own work and there might be sources coming from that side.  Is that what you're saying?

EDWARD WEBB: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Without even Mr van Zyl knowing.  Other information.  That's what I understood the answer to be.

MR WILLIAMS: Now General Webb, I put it to you that the Kewtown youth never intended to start a fire in Khayelitsha.  It sounds ridiculous to us even.  Would you accept that?

EDWARD WEBB: You can put it me, but please bring me the evidence.

MR WILLIAMS: No, but are you prepared to accept if I tell you, or if I put it to you that we had no such intentions?

EDWARD WEBB: But Mr Williams, you're not testifying.  Please.  You can't tell me to just accept it.  If you are prepared to give evidence then do so.  If we get to the end of these proceedings and my information was incorrect, then I will concede that, but there has been no evidence as yet.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's a situation where it would impossible for the witness to accept it or deny it and he just can't dispute whatever is put to him in that regard.  Isn't that the situation?

MR WILLIAMS: Ja okay, let me go onto the next point then.
	I think also you are the only applicant who said that:
"We planned attacks on the lives of candidates who stood for the election."

EDWARD WEBB: I say once again I didn't read the other applications.

MR WILLIAMS: Now my understanding of the other applications is that the Kewtown youth planned to disrupt the elections by planting bombs at the venues etcetera, but not on the lives of candidates.

EDWARD WEBB: That was the information which I got.

MR WILLIAMS: Now I put it to you that that is also incorrect and that is not the truth.  Are you prepared to accept that?

EDWARD WEBB: Once again, you're not giving evidence ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, could we please just make a distinction here.  Is Mr Williams saying that the Kewtown Youth Movement would not have done it, or is he saying that the information which the General had was incorrect?  Please let us just be clear.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's clear Mr Williams, when you're questioning him that there - the General was in Pretoria and worked on information, so if you put it to him whether the Kewtown youth wouldn't burn, or would he accept that they wouldn't burn Khayelitsha or kill people, what can he say?

MR WILLIAMS: Okay.
	Then General, are you saying as a fact that that was the information that you received?

EDWARD WEBB: That is the information which I received.

MR WILLIAMS: And that is from Mr Verster?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: And also the other information that you received was that we that we planned to - that we were involved in bomb attacks?

EDWARD WEBB: That's the information which I received.

MR WILLIAMS: Now also that - you've already testified that you have never received information, that you were never informed that gangsters supplied the information to Mr Slang van Zyl.

EDWARD WEBB: Correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Now General I find it strange that you are saying that Mr Verster supplied you with some of the information, whereas Mr Verster never said that in his - that was never his testimony before this Committee.  For example he never says that he received information that we planned attacks on the lives of candidates who stood for the elections.

EDWARD WEBB: That is my evidence, that's the information which I received.

MR WILLIAMS: But can you explain to the Committee why that is not the testimony of Mr Verster?

EDWARD WEBB: Let's look at Mr Verster's application, let's see what he says about that and what reasons he gives.

MR WILLIAMS: You were here when he testified, you listened to his testimony.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: He never said that we planned attacks on the lives of candidates.

EDWARD WEBB: I don't know, I can't remember.  Bring us the application, let us see what the application states black on white.  Let's not rely on our memory.