Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-25

ADV GCABASHE: I am trying to understand or draw a distinction between coming up with your family and staying with them at Cliffie Barnard's farm, yes?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And looking after them in that environment, okay?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: As opposed to going to the game farm and ultimately being involved in the pipe bomb incidents?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: We were given instructions t gather our things together, to get food supplies, we were going to leave from there.
	I did not at that stage, know that we were going to go to a game farm.

ADV GCABASHE: But you were under instruction when you went to the game farm?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And you were under instruction from your leaders?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And it is only when you got, and correct me if I am wrong, it is only when you got to the game farm that the immediate objective of setting off these bombs to derail the elections, was made clear to you?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, concerning the bombs, yes.

ADV GCABASHE: When you went to the game farm, you could easily have been going there simply to protect the people there, not necessarily to get involved in offensive missions?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No, I committed myself completely with the situation and we wanted to stop the elections, and that was my objective.

ADV GCABASHE: Don't misunderstand me, I am saying when you got to the game farm, the fact that you were now going to be bombing places, so as to derail the elections, was only made clear to you at that time, not before?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, the thing about bombing places, that was only conveyed to us at the game farm.

ADV GCABASHE: So in terms of your objective of coming to Ventersdorp to try and secure your Volkstaat and to help prevent the elections, you could have done all of those things by patrolling that game farm, nothing more, nothing less, you would still have achieved your objective?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No, the instruction was quite evident and I identified with them, we must cause chaos and unrest to stop the elections because this is going to be a war.

ADV GCABASHE: This is precisely the point, you needed this other instruction from this other grouping and for your purposes you said it was the AWB leadership, you needed that instruction to go out and throw bombs elsewhere as opposed to staying on the game farm and protecting that part of your territory?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: That is correct Chairperson, I did receive the instructions there, that is how it happened.

ADV GCABASHE: So you would have been fulfilled or your objective would have been fulfilled had you simply stayed on the game farm, and patrolled as some of the others did, that is all they did?  Your objective that you had in your head when you left your house and sold everything up, would have been fulfilled at that point, having just patrolled and done nothing else?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: I understand what you are trying to say, but I received the instructions.  If they did not want to task me with this, they would have tasked someone else, that is correct.  Yes, we would have still achieved our goal, but they gave me specifically the instruction to do that.

ADV GCABASHE: Let me move on, I will leave that at that, let me move on to a related point.  Again we are talking about essentially planning and the objective you were trying to achieve in that context.
	Just the question now in that context is, on the night of the 26th you decided to approach Abe Fourie about going to see your families.

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, on the 26th, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: As far as you were concerned, you were in a war situation?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And Abe Fourie himself knew that you were in a war situation?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, I believe that.

ADV GCABASHE: Did Abe Fourie or Du Plessis sit down with the men at that point, including yourself, and say right, the election is tomorrow, there are certain things we still have to achieve to ensure that this election is stopped.  This is going to be our plan between today and either tomorrow or the next day, but essentially was there a structured approach to the rest of the war that they communicated to you before you went off for a break, if that is what you want to call this?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: To put it briefly, we got there, the people asked if they could go and see their wives.  We only had enough food for the week so we needed some more food supplies.  They didn't discuss anything else with us.
	Commandant Fourie went to the Brigadier and asked him if we may leave that place to go and visit the wives.  He came and gave us feedback, he said yes, it is fine, you can go.  But there was no talk about planning, nothing that I know of.  They did not discuss anything with us.

ADV GCABASHE: So as far as you knew, your Commanders had no other missions or operations they wanted you to participate in before or on the 27th of April?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Didn't this strike you as strange considering that the new objective now, as you explained it, was to ensure that that election did not take place, you knew this at that point?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: I am sorry, could you please put your question again, I am not sure ...[intervention]

ADV GCABASHE: I am simply asking for your own opinion now, what you might have thought at the time.  Didn't you think that your release, you know the ability to go and see your families at that particular time, was strange considering that the election was going to take place the very next day and you were trying to stop this election.
	It really wasn't part of a para-military organisation, this or maybe you thought otherwise, I don't know.  Just your opinion?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No, it was not about going to visit.  It was just to go and see the wives and to get food supplies.  That is why we came back early that morning and first went around to Ventersdorp, we didn't go and visit them the whole day, we came back to the same place.

ADV GCABASHE: That is the other part of my question, I was coming to that.  Why did you go to Ventersdorp, why did you not come back to the place your Commanders had released you from?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: The people first wanted to go around to Head Office before we go back to the game farm.  I was not in charge, I was only a Lieutenant.  I drove with the people who had higher ranks and who gave the instructions.  I do not know what their purpose was for them going to Ventersdorp first.
	I cannot say why they did that.

ADV GCABASHE: It was not discussed in your presence?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Then when you got to Ventersdorp, there is talk of a fax that you heard about, there is a fax that was intercepted.  I will start again, okay, when you got to Ventersdorp, there is mention of a fax that was intercepted by some General or the other.
	You gave that evidence do you remember?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Sorry, I gave evidence of a fax that was intercepted during a meeting in February at the meeting in Trim Park.

ADV GCABASHE: Okay, that is where I then misunderstood you.  I actually thought the fax was intercepted at that point in time, not at a previous - now the contents of that fax was shared with you at Ventersdorp on that day or did you know about it before?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No, we were told after the meeting at Trim Park, Ventersdorp February, before we started working.

ADV GCABASHE: Do you remember who they said the fax was from and where it was going to?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Brigadier Leon van der Merwe just conveyed it to us that this fax was intercepted, where and how I do not know, but it was a fax from the ANC that was intercepted saying that we will be shot and killed.

ADV GCABASHE: And do you know who it was going to?