Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: No, when Mr Venter came to see you, did he say that Ngo had borrowed his car and hadn't returned it?  I am just verifying what he already said.  Was that what he said?

MR BRITZ: Yes, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is so.

MR BRITZ: Did you have any other discussions?

UNKNOWN: Venter returned home without the car, because Ngo was not present on that day.

MR BRITZ: Right, now Captain did you see Mr Venter ever after that specific day?

UNKNOWN: I haven't seen him since he left Pretoria.

MR BRITZ: Now, Captain, did anybody come and speak to you about Mr Ngo's arrest?

UNKNOWN: Yes, there were members of the CID in Free State.

MR BRITZ: Did they come and see you personally?

UNKNOWN: Yes, they came at the barracks in Pretoria.

MR BRITZ: Right, now, Captain, did you personally see Mr Ngo driving around with the Cressida?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I saw him driving that Cressida car.

MR BRITZ: And did you speak to him about the car after Mr Venter's visit?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I spoke to him.

MR BRITZ: And what did he say?

UNKNOWN: I informed him that Mr Venter is looking for his car, then he told me that he would return the car.

MR BRITZ: Now, Captain, can we go to the document.  Mr Chairman, I don't ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on, how long was this before the police came to see you about Venter's death?

UNKNOWN: I think it is months.  It is months.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR BRITZ: Mr Chairman, I am not sure where the numbering of the Exhibits are.  I know Mr Visser has his own system Mr Chairman, but Mr Chairman, can I suggest that we make this Bundle a Bundle X, I don't think that you've gone as far as that.

CHAIRPERSON: We've had a great many with a P as a prefix, perhaps X would be safe.

MR BRITZ: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.  If we can mark it then X. Captain could you look at the Bundle of documents there on your left, or have you got it in front of you?  The Bundle that says Ngo - Amnesty Application.  Have you got that Bundle?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I have it with me.

MR BRITZ: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Now, Captain, I don't want to refer you to each and every page thereof, but can we start on page 1.  Can you explain to the Committee a copy of what document is this?

UNKNOWN: On page 1 is an official pocket book of the SAPS, which is carried by members who are below the Commissioner's officers that is from Constables and up to Inspectors.  Those are the people who are compelled to carry this document while on duty.

MR BRITZ: All right, whose handwriting is this?

UNKNOWN: That is Constable Ngo's handwriting.

MR BRITZ: And we don't have to go into each and every detail.  Let's take on page 11 the first entry there, it says report for service, posted barracks duty.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the photostat page 11, page 1 of the Bundle?

MR BRITZ: Yes, I beg your pardon Mr Chairman, thank you.  Page 1 of the Bundle, it is page 11 on the photocopy.  It is the first page Captain Koja.  Have you got that?  The first page on the top right hand corner.

UNKNOWN: I see that on page 11.  You say is it page 11 which you are talking about?

MR BRITZ: Mr Koja, close the Bundle.  Please close the Bundle.  Then you turn over to the first page.  Now the page numbers I am going to refer to are on the top right hand corner.  All right.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I see that.

MR BRITZ: Now, if you have that page, let's look at that page.  You will see there are two columns.  Now let's look at the right hand column, it says Tuesday, 18 August 1987.  Do you see that?

UNKNOWN: I see that.

MR BRITZ: And it says report for duty, posted for barracks duty by Inspector and then it is not clear.  Is that your signature there or whose signature is that?

UNKNOWN: That is not my signature.  It might be somebody who was working with me because they sent quite a number of people who came from Unit 19, but it is not my signature.  It is one of those people who was working with us from Unit 19.

MR BRITZ: All right, what does that inscription mean?  Do you know what it means?

UNKNOWN: The writing which is there, it shows that at that particular time, he was an official placed on duty, then he was inspected by this policemen who was working at the barracks, the one who signed under me.

MR BRITZ: All right, and then next one is reporting from duty - no injury sustained.  Do you see that?  Does that mean that he went off duty?

UNKNOWN: That is so.

MR BRITZ: Now Captain, we find these entries in the pocket books almost daily, just about ... (intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: And on that page he reported for duty at 07h15 in the morning and he went off duty at 16h00?

UNKNOWN: That is true sir.

MR BRITZ: Thank you Mr Chairman.  We find those entries in the pocket book almost every day.  Isn't that so?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MR BRITZ: Now, Captain, can we turn to on the top right hand corner, you must look at the numbers, page 17 please.  	Have you got that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I got that.

MR BRITZ: Now, Captain you will see there on the left hand column, the second part says Wednesday, 20 July 1988.  Do you see that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I see that.

MR BRITZ: And it says 07h15, report on duty at single quarters, inspected by Captain or it was Warrant Officer Koja.  Do you see that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I see that.

MR BRITZ: Is that your signature there?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is my signature.

MR BRITZ: And then the next one looks 7 and I can't see the time there, it says leave the single and it should probably be quarters to SA Police 19 to meet Lieutenant Haggard in connection with my special leave.  Do you see that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I see that.

MR BRITZ: Can you remember anything about that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I remember because when he left there at Unit 19, that is where his administration for leave and other things were done even though he was working at the barracks, I remember when he went to Haggard to meet him.

MR BRITZ: Did he go to Rosslyn where Unit 19 was, frequently?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct.

MR BRITZ: And then if you look at the second column, on the right hand side, Wednesday, 20 July 1988, round about four o'clock it says for two days report of duty at single quarters, inspected by Warrant Officer Koja, do you see that?

UNKNOWN: I don't see it at page 17.

MR BRITZ: Yes, it is on the right hand side, on the right hand side it says four o'clock.  Top right hand side.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I see that.

MR BRITZ: Is that your signature too?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is my signature.

MR BRITZ: Right, and then if we turn over to page 18, you will see Mr Chairman, and that is the last entry in the last pocket book that we could find.   You will see there an entry on 22 July 1988.  Do you see that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I see that.

MR BRITZ: Is that also in Mr Ngo's handwriting?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is Ngo's handwriting.

MR BRITZ: Right, now Captain if we can turn over to page 19, it is an extract of a record book of the people who were resident at the barracks, is that right?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct.

MR BRITZ: And the third last entry is M.N. Ngo and the date is 5 February 1987.  The third last entry.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I see that, that is correct.

MR BRITZ: And would it be safe to accept that that would in all probability have been the date on which Mr Ngo started staying at the barracks?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is the date, that is correct.

MR BRITZ: Now, Captain if we turn over to the next page, page 20 from page 20 to the last page, we have extracts of the occurrence book of the barracks and these are only extracts.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I see those extracts.

MR BRITZ: You have gone as far as was possible through the occurrence book.   How frequently did you see Mr Ngo's name mentioned in the occurrence book?

UNKNOWN: When I look here, it appears on CR number 74, 75 he is there.