Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: It's some time since we last sat Mr Derby-Lewis, may I remind you that you are still under oath?

CLIVE- DERBY LEWIS: (still under affirmation)

MR PRINSLOO: (cont)
	Mr Derby-Lewis, you wanted to submit something before we recommence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, there are two matters.  The first concerns my concern about that which I expressed earlier regarding the effect that our action has had on Mrs Hani and her children and I talked about that.  It was then brought to my attention that during my argument Mrs Hani was not present, had not been present.
	On Monday I also requested Mr Mpshe, Adv Mpshe that I be afforded the opportunity personally to meet Mrs Hani and her children in the spirit of reconciliation, which is the real purpose of this Committee.
	I wish to place that on record as an official request that I be given the opportunity to meet Mrs Hani where I will then personally express my sympathy to her and her children.
	The second item which I wish to offer Mr Chairman, is also in a spirit of cooperation and also to confirm that we on this side have no intention of unnecessarily delaying this Committee's proceedings.  I personally would like to see them finalised as quickly as is possible, and in that spirit Mr Chairman, I refer you to bundle B which contains all of the documentation after Addendum C which we have already covered and I wish to request that without my being led in evidence in regard to these documents, it is in the region of something like 200 pages, that the documents as they stand, be written into the record of the Committee so that I don't have to be led in official evidence.  If that will meet with the Committee's approval.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should refer us specifically to which documents would form part of your evidence because then they will have to be confirmed under oath, unless they are already in the form of affidavits.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Certainly Mr Chairman, I refer here to Bundle B, the index to political background documents, from item 3 which is a history of communism in South Africa, commencing with page 57 of the bundle and continuing through to item 10 which ends with other media coverage and it ends with page 186.
	I don't know Mr Chairman, whether perhaps you can lead me or advise me whether I can take an oath regarding this documentation when I wasn't actually the writer of these various publications, I am not sure of that position.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, you must decide what it is that you would like your client to talk about and if there are documents which have not been compiled by him, which are handed in in support of his application, he can refer to those documents and say I rely on those documents without having to read those documents into the record.
	But where documents are compiled by him, he must confirm the truth and correctness of those documents.

MR PRINSLOO: Honourable Chairman, I was given to be understood by my client that he wishes those documents to be regarded as read and not waste the Committee's time with this and that he will depend on those documents.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, have you any objection to this procedure?

GEORGE BIZOS: No Mr Chairman, let them present the case the way they want to.  Our contention will be that these documents are to a very large extent irrelevant.

CHAIRPERSON: When you address us, you will deal with that?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Prinsloo, you may proceed with Mr Derby-Lewis.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Derby-Lewis I just want to take you back in your evidence, when did you for the first time discuss with your co-accused, the other applicant, Mr Walus, what action to be taken with regard to what prevailed in the country at that particular time?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well, we started talking about it Mr Chairman, after the mobilisation congress had been held because I personally was convinced at that stage, that the CP and I knew it was going to be extended to the broad Right in South Africa, was really now getting down to business.

MR PRINSLOO: When was that Mr Derby-Lewis?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: The congress was held in August of 1992 Mr Chairman.  So this would be from September onwards.

MR PRINSLOO: Now, did you decide upon the nature of what action you should take?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, we discussed various options including the possibility of effecting an assassination which I believed would have been part of the modus operandi with which we could reach the objective.

MR PRINSLOO: And when did you decide for the first time to assassinate the late Mr Hani?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, that decision I made in February after it was clear to me from the agitation that the late Mr Hani was busy with regarding the return of weapons from Angola, it was obvious to me that he also meant business from his side, and that was when I decided to identify him as a specific target.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be February 1993?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: February 1993, correct Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Derby-Lewis, the document now before the Commission, bundle E, the first two pages is a list.  Mr Chairman, I must apologise, this is the best copy I could obtain from the Police docket, there is a typed one in the court record, but it is not a copy of the original, and in order to explain this, we made a copy Mr Chairman.
	There are certain evidence on this that we would like to present to the Commission.  Mr Derby-Lewis, before you bundle E, pages 1 and 2, is that the list you made mention of in your evidence?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well, it didn't exactly have this appearance Mr Chairman, it was in three pages, but I think its been photostatted like this for convenience sake, but on the front page was the information regarding the residence of Mr Nelson Mandela, with a photograph of his residence.
	On the second page was the description of how to find the residence of the late Mr Joe Slovo and then on the third page, was the list of 7 names.

MR PRINSLOO: So what you are saying Mr Derby-Lewis, on the front page was what appears on page 2 of this document, on the left of it, although it is not a complete photo of it, a more clear one would appear in the court record, and then the second one is the one of the late Mr Joe Slovo which is page 1 on the document and then it follows on page 2 of the present document, numbered starting at the top B and then proceeding from the number 4.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Which was page 4 of the actual document, yes Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: Now, Mr Derby-Lewis, when did you for the first time, and where, did you see this document now referred to?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, the first time I saw this document was in Cape Town in my Parliamentary office.  No, not in my Parliamentary office, in the office which the Conservative Party had made available to my wife when I collected her from the bus terminus to bring her back to Parliament as I had come down earlier and it was in Cape Town in the office at her disposal where she took this envelope out of her bag, took the document out of the envelope and showed it to me and made some remark about this is how the representatives of the oppressed lives, with reference to Mr Mandela's residence and then I saw the list.

MR PRINSLOO: Did your wife make any mention of this list at that stage?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes Mr Chairman, she mentioned that she was busy with a big project on gravy train matters and that she was going to make this information available together with other information, to Dr Ferdie Hartzenberg for use in a speech which he was due to deliver in Parliament.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Derby-Lewis, if you look at the document, if you look at the first page, there is a figure 2 appearing and then on the second page, there is a figure 1 appearing and then it is above the name of President Nelson Mandela and then there are other numbers appearing on the same second page, starting from 4, written in ink?