Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-15

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, I understand that and it was seated at my level that is why I'm saying we can try to confirm from the other witnesses whether various other options were put forward and that is the option that was chosen and the reason within the context of the time, this was within the context of the time that we functioned and things had to happen and on that basis I made the choice and I said that this is what is to be done so the confirmation of alternative, we might be able to obtain from the Regional Manager.  I chose that one that was the most probable or possible one.  I cannot recall any now.

MR LAX: Just bear with me one second, Chair.  Just one last thing that I overlooked.  We spoke yesterday about your deputy and I was just struck about the extent to which on your version as you put it, he must have been in the dark because the way you testified was he wasn't briefed about a whole lot of these projects, people sort of contacted you when you were overseas and asked you questions and what was the point of having a deputy at all if you didn't brief him on the projects, if you didn't let him act as your deputy?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, we had a shortage of manpower and my deputy had his own region.  I think on the contrary if I think back now I think he had more than one region.  He had Region 1 which was the large region and I would almost think that he had one or two others that he had with him as well so therefore there was no formal structure of a deputy but if I would leave and the existing projects about the existing projects he would be informed about I tried not to go away if there were any sensitive things ongoing so his role and function as deputy manager were the things that I told you to look at financing logistics and to make sure that the submissions were correct, look at staff issues.  Another project could have been brought about while I was away and this could have taken place very quickly where he became involved in a project that I did not know of while I was away and that he knew of it but there was never a policy of let us tell everyone what was going on.  He was not aware of all the projects, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just very briefly, Mr Verster, when was the CCB established ?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It was approximately April 1986, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And Region 6?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I think it was the middle of '88, middle of '88 yes, that is when it started, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And from your evidence you said that from the beginning of the activities of Region 6 to the end there were four operational projects, that's the three of which we are dealing with here today.  Am I correct that all the members, the aware members, including all the applicants here they were all based in Johannesburg, that's where they were based where they had offices, they were in Johannesburg.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you said that a project would come into being, somebody from the ground would come up with a proposal through the region, through Staal Burger then up to you, is that correct?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: In Region 6's regard it did happen, many of these projects were initiated in this manner.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm just wondering how would it have come about that all the operational projects were down here in the Cape Town area, would one of your operators go to Cape Town hunting around looking for some action and in other words there would be money made available to him to come to Cape Town, cold as it were because they're based in Johannesburg, he is coming down here to find a project and it just seems strange that if there were no operational projects at all up in Gauteng, the now Gauteng, where I think we can accept the political conflict and violence was great than down this area of the country and then nothing happened up there yet everything happened here, how would it have come about first of all that a project would emanate from the Cape.  Would you give money to for instance Mr van Zyl, say look here's R5000, check into the hotel, go down to Cape Town, see what the action is and then he would go down and find out, how did it work?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, our whole planning structure started from information, in other words we'd make an evaluation of the information, we see what the enemy does and we'll see what the routes are and where is he going to for example there were successes with regard to this.  For example, uMkhonto members who came from Lesotho to the Western Cape and that is how we built up the picture and then we based our action thereupon and the positioning of the persons in Johannesburg was because it was the centre.

CHAIRPERSON: So that information that you say okay there's somebody now they're making a trail down to Cape Town, they're infiltrating they're going to Cape Town, you were sort of cut off from the formal structures except in a very limited way, you had this link to get equipment and money but you were cut off from the police and the rest of the army for operational purposes and where would you get this sort of information, from Region 6 now?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: As I have explained, from Special Forces own intelligence structure which represented the rest of the army so the co-ordinator speaks to an intelligence officer with us who gets his information from Special Forces which was part of the whole country's intelligence service.

CHAIRPERSON: So there was that co-operation with regard to ...(intervention)

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is correct, that is how things were confirmed and in this regard Mr van Zyl was sent down to Cape Town, he had to develop himself in Cape Town, he received certain information and he positioned himself as he saw fit and then from that position he gained certain information and then he verifies it and in this regard this is how it happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any explanation at all as to why there were no operational projects in the Witwatersrand area?  Would there have been any information relating to that area because you were all there?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I think with regard to Evans there was development with regard to that, it was then the early stages of the development of Region 6 so there was no other reason.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  I see that it's almost 4 o'clock, it might be a convenient time to stop because we may be able to be in possession of the evidence and then maybe Mr du Plessis will be in a position to conclude his questioning and then you can get to your re-examination, Mr Wessels and I will give all the representatives an opportunity to ask questions arising out of the questions that the Panel have put, not another unrestricted cross-examination of the witness.  Thank you.
	Will 9 o'clock again be convenient?  We will now adjourn till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning at the same venue, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS