Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: He was in full uniform because after getting out of the helicopter it became apparent that he had forgotten something like a lumber jacket.  The army lumber jacket, the camouflage.  Then he had to go and fetch it and then he came to us to the police and he asked the police to get into the helicopter so that he could drop them in some forest.  He was in full uniform.

MR MGIDLANA: You must be mistaken Mr Siqhola.  I'm told that Ronray Daly was not wearing any uniform and that he was carrying this radio equipment and further that he's the only one who was dropped by that helicopter.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I still maintain that he was not the only person.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mgidlana, when it gets to a convenient stage we'll take the tea adjournment but only when you've finished your line of questioning, when it's a convenient stage.

MR MGIDLANA: May I say that it could be convenient because I was also thinking of taking just legal instructions on this aspect.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well it seems that it is a convenient stage.  We'll take the short tea adjournment for twenty minutes, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Siqhola, I remind you that you're still under your former oath.  Mr Mgidlana?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: (s.u.o.)

MR MGIDLANA: (cont)
	Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Siqhola, you will recall that we're still on the aspect of the soldiers that were there whilst you were at Jafta's homestead?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: (s.u.o.)  Yes.

MR MGIDLANA: So you were saying that there were two sets of reinforcements from the soldiers that came, who were there.  The first set being the one led by Lt Mandela and the other one that came later led by Ronray Daly, is that correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: They didn't come all at once but there were two groups.

MR MGIDLANA: I've not said they came all at once.  So the first one to come was the Mandela group, Lt Mandela's group?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: How did it happen that they came over there, did you first contact Umtata or did you just send somebody to go and tell them that there was trouble down there?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: They indicated that whenever they were required to assist we should just call them.

MR MGIDLANA: And were they the first people that you called.  When I'm saying you that is your group, called?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes that is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: So were you mistaken when you are saying in your statement attached in the bundle of documents that you contacted Umtata and asked for reinforcements and they came from Umtata under Ronray Daly?  I think it's on page 11?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I was not mistaken.

MR MGIDLANA: In fact the impression that one gained from what you say in paragraph 7 on page 11 of the bundle of documents is that it's only Umtata that we contacted for reinforcements and that the TDF members that arrived were only those under Ronray Daly, are you saying that you have now - by what you say in your affidavit on page 13 to 14 are you trying to add on what, put some more facts on what you have said on page 11 of the bundle?

MR LAX: Except to say, Sir, that page 11, under paragraph 6 as opposed to paragraph 7, that's (vi) sorry, page 11 of the bundle, he does at that stage already include Lt Mandela and his troops being present at that point so you need to clarify who he is talking about at what stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it necessary for us to hear who came first or second or what are we getting at here?

MR MGIDLANA: Somewhere, Chairperson, he talks about the house having been set on fire by the security police.  On the other hand, somewhere he talks about it been set on fire by the TDF, so that's why I want to clear this up.

MR DUKADA: Sorry Mr Chairperson, I'm very much concerned now about the fact that the protracted cross-examination coming from my colleague makes the impression that the applicant is facing an ordinary trial whereas he has made an application here.  I thought that it is common cause that there was an incident at the premises of Mr Jafta.  The applicant mentioned that he was part of the operation and he even mentioned his role at the premises.  For us - I'm sorry, for the Committee to listed to protracted cross-examination as to what was one, by Ronray Daly who came first etc., it means that this Committee will sit the whole day.

CHAIRPERSON: Probably a lot longer than the whole day.

MR DUKADA: And longer than this day and what worries me now is that the applicant is engaged in legal liabilities in this matter and there seems to be no distinction between issues of evidence to the application.  He's not facing any criminal trial here ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes ...(intervention)

MR DUKADA: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, before I conclude, all what I'm urging the Committee is to confine my learned friend to the application, that is the assault and torture and nothing else.

CHAIRPERSON: You see this is what we've been trying to say, Mr Mgidlana, we know this isn't a trial, we're not going to make findings as to whether Lt Mandela was there first and Reed Daly second, whatever.  He's made application in respect of certain things.  If you can restrict your cross-examination to the role played by the applicant, if there's any dispute there because really we - you know whether Reed Daly was wearing civilian clothes or whether who called who and why, whether the call was through Umtata or direct to Butterworth, it's not really going to get us anywhere because it's not dealing with the subject matter and we also have a limited time here, I don't want to over duly rush you or anything but please, if you could just keep it pertinent?  Thank you.

MR LAX: Just bear one other thing in mind as you go, these events did happen 13 years ago.  To expect somebody to recall every tiny little detail, it's so long ago.  It's not being a bit unreasonable maybe?

MR MGIDLANA: As it pleases.  Who actually set the house on fire?  Was it the security police or TDF?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: The TDF plus the anti-raid unit and security police from East London.

MR MGIDLANA: And when you say on page 13 of your affidavit that it was set - it was burnt by the security police, do you include in that TDF anti-riot from the Transkei Police as well as the police from East London, SAP?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Just before reading I know that it's talking about the security police that were involved in the operation, the people who were administering the grenades and the tankers was the anti-riot and TDF and the security police from East London.

MR MGIDLANA: If you could answer probably you could say it was also some time as it seems that time is of essence, answer the question, when you say in your affidavit that the house was burnt by security police, do you include all these groups?

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Mgidlana, if you look at page 12, paragraph 8, I'll read it, it says
"The members of the TDF, Transkei Anti-Riot Unit, East London Security Branch and SAP Task Force, fired at the shop and house with rifle grenades and the house was burnt to ashes."

MR MGIDLANA: Yes.  If you look at the affidavit on page 13 it gives another impression that it was the security police, that's why I want to find out as to what does he mean in his affidavit when he says it was burnt by the security police.

MR LAX: Except to say, Sir, that if you then read page 14, paragraph 15.4, it is embellished even further where he says
"Members of the TDF and the Transkei Anti-Riot Unit used hand grenades and teargas to destroy the house and the trading store."
So again it ...(intervention)

MR MGIDLANA: Okay, it's still within that ambit and of what he says.