Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-15

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: The main cause, I'll come to it when I come to Madadzhe, to show how it affects them because here with Makabu and the others, they are people who were just mentioned in the meeting and the people who know that they practised witchcraft, but that case of Madadzhe, I know how it is linked with the government.

CHAIRPERSON: Lets get to that one straight.

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Mr Madadzhe was a headman and working under Chief Chokororo.  That chief one day while we were holding a meeting told us personally that this democracy which you - or this government want to fall won't fall.  Then it resulted that that chief said that in the presence of Madadzhe and that incident made us to believe that - makes us to believe that because Chikororo was having a position in the ruling government ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: ... a little bit slower.  I'm trying to write down what you say.  He told you that the government wouldn't fall as long as he remains the chief, is that right?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes he said so.

ADV DE JAGER: Proceed from there please.

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: From there because I was the person who was leading that meeting, then I was then I was pointed by Mr Madadzhe and told I would see it, or I will see that something must happen, and that thing made people to be angry because there were youth who were dying mysteriously.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that necessarily to do with those deaths?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: The witches on that linked with political thing by pointing their fingers at me and the fact that they made the people to disappear.

MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Now you have just explained that the group proceeded to Makabu's kraal.  What happened there?

ADV DE JAGER: Could we perhaps finish with this case of Madadzhe?  Now, Mr Madadzhe pointed a finger at him, and what happened then?

MR NDOU: I'm afraid it was not translated.  He said that he indicated he would see, meaning that one day ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, Madadzhe said "okay you'll see."  And he pointed the finger.  And what did you do then to Mr Madadzhe?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: On that day I did nothing.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you turn away and went to another place?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: I didn't turn away but we were still attending the meeting when he pointed at me.  He pointed at me while seated on the car of Mr Jocokororo.

ADV DE JAGER: I see, was that still at the meeting?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes it was still at the meeting.

MR NDOU: Was that the day on which you killed him.

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: No it was not on the same day on which he was killed.

MR NDOU: Do I understand you that on the day in question you only proceeded his call later on ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR NDOU: Now what I want to find out from you, is that you've indicated that on the date in question the group proceeded to two kraals.

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: On that day, I indicated that the house or the kraal which was attacked was that of Mr Makabu, I'm still going to indicate whereto we proceeded.  That day, if I'm not mistaken, we went to eight kraals.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do at Makabu's kraal.

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: On our arrival at Mr Makabu's kraal, after requesting the people to give me a chance to speak with Mr Makabu, they said, "no there is nothing you can say to him, he must be killed."  What I did there - I participated in burning the hut.  Mr Makabu escaped and ran away.  Then we went to the second Makabu, we went to two villages belonging to Makabu.  From there we went to Mr Kabanka ...(intervention)

MR NDOU: What did you do at the second ...(intervention)

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: We found nobody there, the people there ran away, so we only broke the window panes.

CHAIRPERSON: He is applying for amnesty in respect of two murders, we don't need to hear the whole story.  Let us hone in on those two applications please.

MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Will you just confine yourself to those two incidents where the two people were killed.

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: On that day if we are talking of two places, from the ground we went to Mr Maphaha's place.  On our arrival there I found two women who are there sleeping on beds with Maphaha.  That was the time when people were breaking the windows through which Mr Maphaha escaped through.  What happened there was that I hit Maphaha with a stick while other people were beating him.  Maphaha then escaped and ran to another kraal to a certain Reverend Chivasa.  There we followed him into that shanty and dragged him out and beat him to death.

MR NDOU: And what did you do?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: I beat him with a stick several times.

MR NDOU: Even outside?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes. From there we went to Madadzhe's place.  On our arrival there ...(intervention)

ADV SIGODI: The Chairperson asked you this question but I would also like to pose it to you, how would the killing of Mr Maphaha contribute in the overthrowing or in making the country ungovernable?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: The killing of Maphaha contributed because there was a youth who was an activist who was claimed to be missing and it was said that he was last seen with Mr Maphaha.  That is why he was attacked.

ADV SIGODI: How different would it be from an ordinary murder?  The killing of Mr Maphaha - what I'm trying to find out, how do you link this with making, or how did you see that this murder would lead to making the country ungovernable?  How different was it from an ordinary murder?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: So looking into the political situation during that time the politics of the South African country, during that time, the killing of those people contributed in making the government of the day ungovernable, that is why it ultimately fell down.

CHAIRPERSON: How did that happen that it made the government of the day ungovernable?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: In the beginning I tried to explain that if there is violence at Itsane that people were burned there, then tomorrow it's another village and the following day it's at Amavuma and elsewhere.  All these areas during those days,  we were doing the same thing in order to make the government ungovernable, to make sure that the ruling government must fall and it must not be controllable because there was no other thing that we could do in order to make the government to fall.

ADV DE JAGER: Do I understand you correctly, that if you went around killing somebody in one place today and another place tomorrow and another place, you would create chaos and the police wouldn't know where to protect people and the whole area would become ungovernable.

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes you heard me correctly.

ADV DE JAGER: But now in that process you decided to kill people.  Why didn't you kill people connected with the government?  Why did you kill these people that you went to?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: During those days the people who were in the government, it was difficult for me to go and kill the people who were in the government because where I was staying there were not members of the government.  But what resulted in us killing these people  who we are claiming to be witches is because there were youth who were activists who were trying to make the people understand the politics of the time, and those people were made to disappear mysteriously.
    That is why the people decided to kill the witches, so that the country cannot be controllable and then the government will fall.

ADV SIGODI: So the missing of these people, how could it be linked to government?  The witches?