Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-15

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: No, I did not suggest that particular suggestion.  I put forward a request that we need something to sedate Mr Mbotoli because the trip from Johannesburg to Port St Johns is between, depending how you drive, between ten and twelve hours and at that time, nearly 80 percent of that route was what we called hostile territory.  During this period, we wanted Mr Mbotoli to be sedated to such an extent that he cannot cause any problems, for example at the petrol station, the car had to be refuelled.  That was the purpose of getting something from the Transkei to sedate Mr Mbotoli.  We did not specify what in particular we need, we just said this is what is required and through the logistic channel at the Transkei Embassy, this is what we got.
MR Z. MAPOMA: You know sir, I am asking this question because Mr Mbotoli is eager to know what material was used to sedate him because he complains that that affected him, and he wants it undone.  That is the reason why I am asking the question and if you can assist to a great extent, that would be appreciated.

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I personally cannot assist, for the simple reason that I only saw the medication that particular evening.  I don't know what it was.  But maybe Colonel Mzwaiba might be able to assist there.  I am not trying not to assist, but this was, I am not a medical person, I got something, I was told this is going to do the job and this is how it has to be administered.  Most probably a week later I wouldn't have known the name of the medication any more.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see it being administered Mr Moringer?  Did you actually see it yourself being administered, the injection?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I did, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Whereabouts did they inject Mr Mbotoli?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: If I am not mistaken, here in the arm.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did they have, was the substance already in am ampoule or was it in a bottle, did they have to take it out?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: It came in an ampoule, you know which you break up and where you go with the needle in, extract it and inject it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mapoma?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: From what I understand was that whatever the medication was, was requested in Umtata through Military Intelligence, presumably Colonel Mzwaiba, from a Doctor, where I presume also it was explained to him what the medication should achieve - not necessarily what the operation was.  If I would know what the medication was, I gladly would give the name, I don't know.
MR Z. MAPOMA: Do you perhaps know who the Doctor was?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: No, I don't because I was only on the receiving side, I was not in Umtata and I don't know who had been used for that.
MR Z. MAPOMA: But if I recall in your evidence in chief, you mentioned something like chloroform?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Okay, the chloroform, I don't think is the problem of Mr Mbotoli's ill-health, at the time.  The chloroform, the purpose of the chloroform was, it is something which you can administer through the nose, which is quickly acting, but you cannot apply this continuously.  So, the chloroform was basically used to knock out Mr Mbotoli so that we can disarm him, administer the injection and take him to the car.  The chloroform, at least that is what I understood, is not what caused the problem.  I think it is whatever the medication was, that was injected.
MR Z. MAPOMA: Thank you.  Now, let us come to the reason for your participation in this operation.  Apart from you saying that you wanted the status quo to remain in Transkei, did you have any problem with the status quo in South Africa then?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Sorry, I am just trying to get to the bottom of the answer.  We are talking about 1991, the status quo which was at that time, is that your question?
MR Z. MAPOMA: Okay, let me make this clear.  The South African government was under the National Party rule then?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Yes.
MR Z. MAPOMA: And there was an Apartheid State?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Yes.
MR Z. MAPOMA: And you say by participating in that operation of taking Mr Mbotoli to Transkei, you wanted the status quo to exist, to remain in Transkei because Transkei was pro-transition?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Yes.
MR Z. MAPOMA: Now what I want to find out from you, did you, you personally, did you have a political problem with the National Party government?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I did not have a political problem with the National Party government.  I had at that stage definitely, call it this way, a problem in as far that I approved the transition and what is going to happen thereafter.  I personally disagreed with any attempts to disturb a peaceful transition.  Obviously also from information over this period which I got from Mr Mbotoli, what was actually brewing in the background, I definitely  politically disapproved of that as well.
MR Z. MAPOMA: You know, I am asking this question sir because I want to understand really what is it that made you to participate in this operation and what kind of a person were you politically because we need to establish really the political objective that made you to participate with this particular operation.  I am asking this because you will remember that you were a businessman and historically you did participate in businesses in the Bantustan areas like Transkei, Ciskei, in particular Ciskei during that time?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Yes.
MR Z. MAPOMA: That was an Apartheid State which existed then and you were a businessman benefiting from that status quo then?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Yes.
MR Z. MAPOMA: Now all of a sudden you want to participate in something that you say is going to effect transition, you know and you say the South African government was assisting in the toppling of the Holomisa government, you see?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Yes.
MR Z. MAPOMA: Now what I want to find out, at that time, did you have a political problem with the existing Apartheid State?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I think the question you are asking does not allow, from my point of view at least, a binary answer in that respect.  I think one has to look at it from a much wider angle.  I agree with you that I have been in this country for 30 years, I have been in business, I have been in business in homelands, Bantustan, whatever the appropriate definition for this is, and I have benefited at least on the commercial side, obviously, from the previous government, because call it this, for 20 years out of the 30 years in this country, the National Party was the ruling party.  That is not disputed, however, I was never politically involved in that sense with the National Party or with the previous government.  However, I come from a family which is a very liberal minded family.  In particular, sorry, I am not trying to get sympathy, but unfortunately your question gets that answer, meets that answer, my brother is a lawyer in Austria, my brother is a communist, my brother refused to visit South Africa under the old National government regime.  My brother has actually the first time visited South Africa, about two years ago.  We've got a very closely knit family and I did get quite a lot, I wouldn't call it pressure, but we had lots of political discussions at home as well, in relation to South Africa.  So maybe that definitely formed some of my attitudes to the old government and to the transition.  Does that answer your question?
MR Z. MAPOMA: Yes, well I think to a certain extent it does.  Now apart from this operation that is the subject matter of this hearing now ...

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Mapoma, are you going to move on to something else, I just want to ask a question on this particular aspect of his evidence.  Mr Moringer, what were you, what did you think you were going to gain out of a successful political transition in this country?  What were you personally going to gain from that?