Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-03

ZUKILE MBAMBO: It is not that the Unit Commander has the authority to tell, to go on an operation.  A Unit Commander is not, does not have the power to tell me about, to give me an order, but it is only - I beg your pardon, the Unit Commander does not have powers to tell me to go on a certain operation.

MR LAX: So are you saying, I am not clear now exactly what you are saying.  On the one hand you say he does not have the power to make you go on an operation, and on the other hand you say, he ordered you to go on the operation.
	Which of these two versions do you want us to know?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Let me explain again sir.  I am saying the Unit Commander does not have powers to instruct soldiers to undertake an operation, to send the people and he be left behind.
	You said to me how much authority does the Unit Commander have, and I said he has got authority, but he does not have the authority to send soldiers to undertake an operation.

MR LAX: Please, you are repeating yourself over and over again.  Stick to the point, the point is a simple one.
	You were instructed by TNT, that is your evidence so far.  Is that right?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is correct sir.

MR LAX: And that is why you were on the mission?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No, it is not sir.  To me, it looks like you don't understand instruction and when a person is asking for assistance.
	If you are instructing me, I go there to that place, but if you ask for assistance, I just help you in whatever you are doing.

MR LAX: So you participated in that mission to the Bahai Faith Centre, to help them of your own free will, is that what you are saying?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I did not help them because I was willing, but the Unit Commander said I must help them, because I would also be going back to Transkei with them.

MR LAX: I am going to leave it there, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to clear up a few points with you.  You told my friend on my right, that after you joined the APLA, you had a Commander, Mr Ncapayi, is that correct?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: In Bizana and he died, when did he die?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: He died, he passed away towards the end of 1991 if my memory serves me well.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that while you were still in Bizana?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I don't follow your question sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Was that while you were still in Bizana that he died?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I don't understand your question sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you train in Bizana under him?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And he died.  Where you still in Bizana when he died, it is a perfectly simple question?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No, I was no longer at Bizana.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you just hear that he died?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I heard that he had passed away.  I even attended his funeral.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.  Now, you heard about the decision to stop using violence and I think on the 16th of December 1993.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I heard about the decision that the war should be stopped on the 5th of December 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: It was on the newspapers, on radio, on television, everybody heard about it.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I heard it through the radio media.

CHAIRPERSON: And then in the beginning, in January 1994, there was a further decision taken by Congress to do the same?  That was all over the media as well, correct?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I also heard that sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And you told us that you could have no regard to this, until you were told by your Commander who died in 1991?  Is that correct?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is not so sir, I did not say that.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you had no Commander in December 1993, you have told us that.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I said so.

CHAIRPERSON: So you had no Commander who could have told you, did you?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I did not have a Commander sir, but there could be someone who could come and tell me about that.

CHAIRPERSON: But you made no attempt to find out, you kept on using the excuse that you would only accept it when you were told by your Commander, had you forgotten that you didn't have one?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: It appeared at a later stage sir.  I did not say what you are saying.  I think you are making a mistake sir.  I said after I heard that through the radio media in January 1994, I met with one comrade and I asked him if he heard the news of the suspension of the armed struggle.
	He said he doesn't even care about that, PAC can continue with politics.  He will only listen to his Commander.  It was not myself who actually uttered those words.

CHAIRPERSON: And at that stage, you had committed no acts of violence, you had nothing to cover up, is that so?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I had only the gun sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Pardon?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I was only holding the gun sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and then suddenly in March 1994 you join a unit and you start committing murders, months after you had heard that there was a cessation of hostility, months after you had heard that the PAC had agreed to stop violence.  Can you explain how this came about that you did this without making any enquiries, without asking anybody, without trying to satisfy yourself as to the truth of what you had known for months?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Again in 1994, March 1994, I joined one of the Units under Mr Jimmy Jones as a Commander, that went on, there were fights and we were undertaking operations.  I don't want to lie to you, I never enquired about this armed struggle as I heard it through the radio media and why the people are still being sent to the operations, because I knew very well that Jimmy Jones was one of the members in the High Command of APLA and he actually knew what he was doing.
	He was not being mistaken, he knew very well the reasons.

CHAIRPERSON: You took part in the first killings before you were a member of the Unit, or have you forgotten you have told us that, you have just told my learned friend here.  Do you agree?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No sir, I did not say that I started the killings before being a member of the Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: You went to the Bahai Church killings before you had joined Jimmy Jones, you went after the killing, to him.  Is that not the fact, just say yes or no and don't give us a long speech.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I did not go and kill at Bahai before going to Jimmy Jones.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by that, your counsel looks completely flabbergasted.  Do you mean you didn't take part in the Bahai incident?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I explained that I took part in the Bahai Faith Mission incident, and I even explained what I did.  I did not say that I killed.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you took part.  You went there, knowing that they were going there to kill the whites.  You took part in searching the white men there, taking their keys, you took an active part in the incident, didn't you?  Don't try to deny it now.  You were supposed to be here to make a full disclosure and what you are doing is seeking to evade liability.
	Is what I said correct, did you go there, knowing why you went there and did you assist?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Yes, I went there knowing very well what was going to happen and I participated.  What I said is that I, you said I started killing before joining the Unit, that I did not do.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not a member of any Unit under Mr Jones at that time, were you?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I was not a member of Mr Jones' Unit sir.

CHAIRPERSON: No.  Do you know of any other acts of violence committed in this area, where you were operating in February or March 1994 by APLA units?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I don't have any knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: There weren't any, were there?  It was just your Unit?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I don't have any knowledge sir.

MR LAX: Mr Mbambo, you have just told us that the only thing you had to worry about, between 1991 and 1994, was the fact that you were hiding guns.  Do you remember your evidence just now?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Yes sir, I remember I said that the only thing that I was hiding was a gun.