Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-20

ADV SANDI: In your knowledge of how things were done at Vlakplaas, did that kind of evidence come as a surprise to you?

MARTINUS RAS: No, but that Mr De Kock had given the two plots to Kloppers and Nortje, was news to me.  I was a member of Vlakplaas for nine years.

ADV SANDI: My question is did it surprise you that such a thing had happened?

MARTINUS RAS: No, it wasn't a surprise.

ADV SANDI: Would you like to explain that, why did it not surprise you?

MARTINUS RAS: If you could just elaborate and tell me which part of this was supposed to have been funny to me, because I don't understand.  These were normal actions, covert, cross-border.

ADV SANDI: Okay, we can leave it at that Chairman, thank you Mr Ras.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Ras, if I understand your evidence correctly, it would boil down to this that you are applying for amnesty because of an omission, in that you saw weapons being supplied to the Transkei for a coup, and you did nothing about that?

MARTINUS RAS: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: And this supply of the weapons, is it not part of the covert operations, which the Vlakplaas were doing, or the former Security Police, was doing?

MARTINUS RAS: Chairperson, it is part of a covert operation, and that is why we are applying for amnesty for a number of covert operations which we performed at that stage.  The provision of weapons in itself, constituted a crime.

MR SIBANYONI: But I will assume that there are other covert operations which happened, where you didn't do anything and you are not applying for amnesty for that, why specifically apply for amnesty for this one?

MARTINUS RAS: Chairperson, cases of the supply of weapons, or the murder of persons, violations of human rights, I have applied for amnesty for all these cases.  I have applied for 18 other incidents.

MR SIBANYONI: And then another question, in 1990, the PAC and the ANC were unbanned, they were lawful organisations, you say your presence in East London was if the coup would have been successful, you were going to have access to Transkei to act against the ANC and the PAC, why was that necessary?

MARTINUS RAS: Chairperson, although the ANC and the PAC had been unbanned at that stage, many of the ANC and PAC members had been involved in crime, and those persons were still wanted for those deeds.  There were weapon stockpiling locations in the Transkei according to Intelligence, and to question such persons, in this relation and these people who were sought for their involvement in whichever crimes, had to be identified and arrested.

MR SIBANYONI: Lastly, you said part of your overt operations, were to go out with ascaris, so that they must identify either ANC or PAC and you would arrest those people, either to try and make them witnesses to give evidence in court, or to convert them into ascaris.

MARTINUS RAS: Or to have them locked up, or to arrest them and let them go to jail.

MR SIBANYONI: Oh, maybe you have preempted my question.  My question was going to be what happens to a person who doesn't want to give evidence, who doesn't want to become an ascari?

MARTINUS RAS: He is going to jail.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Ras, you said that you took certain steps regarding the idea of assassinating Gen Holomisa, checking flight schedules, identifying a possible location.  Did you ever formally go back to Colonel De Kock with a proposal, or inform him of how you are proceeding with your investigation in that regard?

MARTINUS RAS: Chairperson, I simply went to him and told him after I had seen his name on a flight list, and that he would have landed at East London.  I told him that he would land here and that we should go ahead with the planning of the elimination of Mr Holomisa and he told me that I should put everything on hold first, and that is what I did.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you then just wait for him to get back to you, which never occurred, or did you carry on?

MARTINUS RAS: Chairperson, it was discussed and he told me to leave everything for a while.  It was never again brought up, I was never sent to East London again and as far as I know ...

CHAIRPERSON: It just died a natural death, the project just faded away?

MARTINUS RAS: Yes, it was simply left at that.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you say that you were in Koevert before going to Vlakplaas?

MARTINUS RAS: Koevoet, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Koevoet at least, for how long were you at Koevoet?

MARTINUS RAS: For two and a half years.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you know Mr De Kock?

MARTINUS RAS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So you have also travelled a long road with him?

MARTINUS RAS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was your relationship like with Mr De Kock, was it friendly or was it strictly business?

MARTINUS RAS: No, we were on good terms, and we had a great deal of respect for each other.

CHAIRPERSON: When Vlakplaas was dissolved in 1993, during that period, did De Kock ever offer you anything, any gesture, any reward at all for services that you had rendered, because we heard in evidence yesterday that he gave certain things to people because he had been working with them for a long time, and it was just a gesture of appreciation.  Were you approached at all, did you decline anything?

MARTINUS RAS: Chairperson, from my point of view, as Mr De Kock and Mr Nortje were, during the time that I knew them, they worked directly together in Ovamboland, we didn't work directly together, we simply knew each other, and Mr De Kock, if I may put it like this from an outsider's perspective, Mr De Kock and Mr Nortje were almost like brothers.

CHAIRPERSON: But you weren't approached with any offer given, anything like that?

MARTINUS RAS: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen, any questions arising from questions that had been put by the panel?

MR JANSEN: Yes thank you Mr Chairman, just one question, just to get some context, just to get some matter in context.  Could you briefly explain to the Committee, because this is something that may not be well known about Vlakplaas, a while before it was disbanded as a Unit, the Unit became two Units so to speak and operated from two different premises apparently.  Could you explain briefly what happened there, just so that we can create the idea that before the dissolution of Vlakplaas, you may not have had as much contact with Mr De Kock as one may think.

MARTINUS RAS: From 1991 Mr De Kock - Vlakplaas would later be divided into three Sections which would operate from three premises, and I wasn't part of the group which would work with Mr De Kock.  Colonel Baker and I worked from Vlakplaas.

MR JANSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is all I have.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Cornelius, any questions arising?

MR CORNELIUS: I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: With your leave Mr Chairman, just one question.  Mr Ras, are you aware that Mr Nortje is the godfather of Mr De Kock's one child?

MARTINUS RAS: No, but I don't find that strange, they were very close to each other.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hatting.  Mr Muller?

MR MULLER: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MULLER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ras, that concludes your testimony.

MARTINUS RAS: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR CORNELIUS: Mr Chairman, Cornelius for the applicant Snyman, I wish to call him with your leave, thank you Mr Chairman.  Just before, Mr Jansen, do you have any other witnesses to call?