Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-08

JUDGE WILSON: And you stabbed at her three or four times but you don't even know if you stabbedher, why was that? What condition were you in that afternoon, can you explain?

MR NOFEMELA: Are you saying while I was stabbing her?

JUDGE WILSON: You told us in your affidavit that you stabbed at her and you don't know ifyou stabbed her or not. You tried three or four times and you don't know ifyou stabbed her. I am asking you why you did not know. You feel if you stabsomeone, why you didn't know. What condition were you in that you didn't knowif you had stabbed her or not?

MR NOFEMELA: Things were happening very fast. There were more than seven, eight or more ofpeople, so that's why I don't know whether I did stab her or not because therewere many people there.

JUDGE WILSON: You had the knife in your hand, you could feel if you did it. Don't say it wasbecause there were seven or eight people you don't know. You in fact know fromthe medical evidence that you didn't stab her, don't you? Don't you?

MR NOFEMELA: Can you repeat your question please.

JUDGE WILSON: You know from the medical evidence that you didn't stab her. She was only stabbedonce. You heard the evidence of the post mortem didn't you?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes I've heard that in court.

JUDGE WILSON: So you can't give any explanation why you didn't know what you were doing?

MR NOFEMELA: No I am sorry, I won't know whether I did stab her or I attempted to, but Ican remember that it was three or four times.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman I think just to be fair to the applicant on the questions that JusticeWilson asked, the evidence from Professor Knoebel was that there was one stabwound which caused her to die. We ourselves searched through the record andthe judgment to find out whether there was any evidence from Professor Knoebelabout any of the other stab wounds because it's common cause that seven to tenpeople, from the State witnesses, stabbed at her. We couldn't find any so Iam not sure, Mr Chairman, whether it's fair to put it to the witness as a factthat there was only one stab wounds and there were no other stab wounds.

JUDGE WILSON: Didn't the Court find that?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Through you Mr Chairman the Court found that there was one stab wound whichcaused her to die ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Where's that?

NORMAN ARENDSE: There was no finding ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: What page?

NORMAN ARENDSE: I will try and assist Judge Wilson.

JUDGE WILSON: At page 60 of the record, 3433, the Judge says,
"Itis appropriate to mention in regard to the evidence of the eyewitnessesas to the stabbing of the deceased that the post mortem revealed onlyone stab wound, whereas the witnesses indicated that more than one personwas armed with a knife and stabbed the deceased".
That is the passageI rely on, the finding by the Judge that the post mortem revealed only one stabwound.

NORMAN ARENDSE: The fuller evidence of Professor Knoebel appears from pages 57, I think throughto that passage which Judge Wilson is referring to. But I accept, I am not takingissue with the fact that there was a finding that there was only one wound,I am just saying that it is common cause that a number of people stabbed atAmy, but there was no finding on the record in the judgment that there wereother stab wounds.

JUDGE WILSON: No, the finding was there was only one stab wound, the passage I just read toyou.

NORMAN ARENDSE: I am concerned about the suggestion coming from Judge Wilson that the applicantis now tailoring his evidence to suit the finding.

JUDGE WILSON: I am not suggesting he is tailoring his evidence to the finding, I am sayinghe must have known now that he did not stab her at all.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Well, with respect Mr Chairman, he is saying that he doesn't know, there werea number of other people who at the same time they were all stabbing at her.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Let's go back to a question which was put to you about what particularly stirredyou up that afternoon to commit the crime that you did, and you said that inthe past you had been excited, I recall. What I want to ask you is, had youin the past, on any occasion, been addressed in the same way that you were thatday during the launch and given what you said were the instructions that weregiven to you that day? Had you in the past been given similar instructions whateveryou conceived of them to be?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And on the occasions that you had been given similar instructions, as you wereon that particular day, you were not moved enough to go and commit a likewiseoffence?

MR NOFEMELA: Each and every activity that we attended we become very emotional insomuch thatwe feel that we can free the Africans.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Just tell me quickly, you left the scene and boarded the train and then? NoI am sorry, I am terribly sorry, when you left the place where the branch waslaunched did you board a train?

MR NOFEMELA: As from Langa High where this meeting was launched we went as a group of 300to 400 students to Vanguard Road. Our aim was to ungovern the country, throwingstones at government cars, that's our aim.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes. I am going to go through that pace by pace, I want to try, if I can, tocapture the atmosphere of that particular afternoon, and you must listen tomy questions in instalments. Well when you left the place where you had launchedthe branch you were a group of people were you not?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Were you singing and toyi-toying?

MR NOFEMELA: We were singing and toyi-toying.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Where to?

MR NOFEMELA: We were off to Vanguard Drive.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well did you get there?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes we did arrive there.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Still in a group?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Still singing and toyi-toying?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Now you are there and what happened?

MR NOFEMELA: We throw stones at White people's cars and government cars and then after thatwe hijacked a truck and we throw stones at that and we try to burn it down andthe police vehicle came and then we went to the police vehicle and throw stonesat them and they shoot back at us.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes just give me time also. I told you that I want to take this step-by-step,and you know don't run away with it.
	When you didwhatever you have just said you did were you still in a group, stoning the truckand police vehicle, were you still in a group?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes we were still in that big group.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Were you still singing and toyi-toying at the same time?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And then after stoning the police vehicle what happened, where did you go?

MR NOFEMELA: We split, some left at Langa, some went to Bonteheuwel station and some to Langastation.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Where did you go, you as an individual, which group did you follow?

MR NOFEMELA: I went to Bonteheuwel.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Were you walking when you went to Bonteheuwel station?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes we were walking.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Were you still singing and toyi-toying or not?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes we were singing, running and toyi-toying.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: About how many were you, just a rough estimation?

MR NOFEMELA: Just an estimation, about 80 to 90 students.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And did you board a train there?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes we boarded a train.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And what was happening in the train? What did you do in the train? Did you assaultpeople, what did you do in the train?

MR NOFEMELA: We were singing like clapping the trains to raise our emotions.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Eventually the train stopped and you got off the train.

MR NOFEMELA: Are you saying in Heideveld?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Whatever station. I am not familiar with Cape Town.