Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-28

PROF DE KOKER: Thank you Chairperson, I'm also putting the question because this has to do with the motive behind the attack.  According to Major Mbatha, only the building was targeted, no people should have been killed but he took no steps to prevent people from being injured, in fact the attack took place in the middle of the day basically during lunch hour and yet he says that he anticipated no-one should be killed.
	He anticipated and unfortunately - this was a very unfortunate circumstance because it should have fallen in the foyer where it would have exploded without any repercussion, simply slight damage ...[indistinct] simply damage to the building.  I'm trying to show that there were people inside the foyer too, that was to have been expected by Major Mbatha and that was probably intended by Major Mbatha when he planned the attack.
	The only unfortunate incident was probably that the attack resulted in the injury and death of ANC members who participated in the march and not in the death and injury of people who were inside the foyer, shoppers in the shops around, employees and the clients of the bank which was also apparently on the same level.

ADV DE JAGER: Well Mr de Koker, I think he should have foreseen that other people could have been killed but that - I don't think that would affect his application for amnesty.   He should have foreseen that even some of his own people could have been killed as in fact happened and that was the basis on which I think the others were found guilty or he could have been found guilty.  So, as far as the fact is concerned that a murder of an offence was committed, I don't think we - it would be of any assistance to us to pursue that further because we accept it.

PROF DE KOKER: Chairperson, if that is accepted by the Committee that death and injury was foreseen and actually planned as part of the attack irrespective of ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Or at least should have been foreseen.

PROF DE KOKER: Should have and by way of ...[indistinct] it was therefore foreseen and intended, I will leave this line of cross-examination and return to it only in argument.

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible] speak on behalf of myself, not on behalf of the Committee because I don't know whether they would agree with me on that point or not.

PROF DE KOKER: If that is accepted, we can probably save time and I'll leave this line of questioning.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think Professor de Koker, you have already made your mark.  I personally have taken note of what you have taken out of Mr Mbatha's responses.

PROF DE KOKER: Thank you very much.  With that indication then Chairperson, I will proceed to another issue dealing with the victims.
	Can you name specific people in the leadership structure of the ANC who were injured in this attack?

LAURENS MBATHA: It was the Secretary of the ANC William Steenkamp, it is the present Secretary of the ANC John Block, it is the Chairperson of the Civics Patrick Vernon, we only know him by the name of comrade P and most of them at this stage, really I can't recall them.

PROF DE KOKER: Thank you very much, that is sufficient.  If we may then see to your specific application for amnesty, the specific application form page 3
State whether any person was injured, killed, or suffered any damage to property of such attacks and there you stated
"Injured and killed"
Indicating that people were injured and killed and then the question proceeds:  
If so, state the name or names of the victim or victims, and what you stated there was
"Izekial Lebugang Mokone and Jean Nel"
What about the other 42 victims and specifically the people that you've mentioned now, why didn't you mention their names in your application?

LAURENS MBATHA: That document was actually prepared by Mr Isaacs office in relation with the TRC and the name Izekial was because of the deceased and Jean Nel, the explanation given was the critical nature of it but the TRC is in possession of the list.

PROF DE KOKER: But you did not furnish them with particulars in the statement that you signed, why not?

LAURENS MBATHA: These are the names because I was told that the list was there and it was prepared and only because of Jean Nel, it was a very critical matter - and the deceased.

PROF DE KOKER: Mr Adriano Cassandra was also very seriously injured, as I said he sustained a limp because of that, he spent quite some time in hospital in Kimberley and that would also have been well known.  If I may put it to you Major Mbatha, my problem is the following:  this hearing would have taken place in March in Bloemfontein.  In March in Bloemfontein, the hearing had to be postponed because the TRC only informed two victims, Jean Nel and the family of Mr Izekial Mokone - those were the only two victims mentioned in the application.
	When it was put to the TRC then that there were more victims, it came as a surprise that led the unfortunate fact that the matter had to be postponed, had to be dragged out even longer with - as you allege, innocent people spending even more time in jail.

LAURENS MBATHA: To my knowledge the postponement - that even myself, we were told a day before the TRC.   And in terms of those people there I think the best person to respond to it would be Rodney Isaacs because on that particular day we only learnt it after that we were supposed to have been at the TRC.

PROF DE KOKER: But you signed the application with this information, which means that you accept responsibility for the information being correct and comprehensive.

LAURENS MBATHA: The explanation given was that: "We are in possession of the list" - I only mentioned the two like I've said, it's the deceased and the critical one and further than that point I think that Mr Isaacs can further explain on that point.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is Mr Isaacs still your attorney?

LAURENS MBATHA: No, by that time actually he was preparing the TRC document for us.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And at the time of the preparation of this document, did you furnish him with a list of names of all the victims that you knew to have been affected by this incident?

LAURENS MBATHA: Mr Isaacs knew Madam.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you furnish him with that information or did you simply assume that he knew about a list?

LAURENS MBATHA: I did not even furnish him those two names, he knew of the names because Mr Isaacs was closely working with the Secretary of the office at that time.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you personally furnish Mr Isaacs with a list of victims?

LAURENS MBATHA: No.

PROF DE KOKER: How was the application drawn up, did you furnish this statement to Mr Isaacs?  That is the statement accompanying your application, I have it indicated as on page 8 "The Kimberly Blast Incident", did you furnish that statement to Mr Isaacs?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes.

PROF DE KOKER: When did you furnish him with that statement?

LAURENS MBATHA: I have a problem with the exact date but it was immediately after the TRC - the HRC hearing and they were still searching at that time for the forms - amnesty forms.

PROF DE KOKER: Did you request Mr Isaacs to complete a form on your behalf?

LAURENS MBATHA: From my statement it was typed and when I came in I went through the statement and I signed it.

PROF DE KOKER: But did you approach him and say you've heard about the TRC, you want to apply for amnesty and he must complete the application form for you?

LAURENS MBATHA: The arrangement of the TRC was again an arrangement through the TRC Department at head office level, hence Mr Isaacs as the one on the ground was actually identified to be the one to go through it.

PROF DE KOKER: Did he approach you or did you approach him?

LAURENS MBATHA: I went to him and then he confirmed the information first.

PROF DE KOKER: Did you also accompany Mr Smiles to Mr Isaacs for his application?

LAURENS MBATHA: We were together.