Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-04

MR RAMALIGELA: With regard to the church people I didn't personally know where they were politically affiliated, however, as I checked from the Security Branch I realised that there were files on what we were doing, but I did not know them personally except Mr Mahamba whom I stayed with at ...(indistinct). The arrest while I couldn't personally say exactly I only read from the office because I went in 1979 there the Security Branch and I was able to discover that they were involved, especially Dean Farisani's file Posiwa.  I couldn't see much from Posiwa's file.  Or I couldn't see a file from Posiwa's side.  From then as we were investigating we discovered that there were some two people who went to Mr Posiwa's place who wanted some kind of help with regard to transport to the bombing of the police station.  Mr Posiwa then took them to Mr Mahamba at Kwendo area, from there they arranged to have a meeting and a van was provided to convey these people to the police station and it was also arranged furthermore that Mr Chikororo would be able to help with his kombi.  And as we discovered we realised that it was actually very true that Mr Chikororo's kombi was responsible and also Mr Ravele was responsible in helping, so was the case with Mr Poswana, he was involved with arrangement. As regard to Mr Dean Farisani it is true that I saw Dean Farisani at Louis Trichardt on the day that the incident took place.  We even greeted each other and we exchanged words to the effect that he said he was going to Johannesburg.  However as we were investigating or interrogating, these people confirmed that Dean Farisani knew about it, although on the day of the bombing of the police station he wasn't around.  He knew something about it, about the arrangement of the helping the freedom fighters.  It was then, in fact I can say that these people were arrested on different occasions.  What I can say just to add on that adding to the list from 15.1 Mr Mahamba was arrested and sent to Tzanani, I can't recall the dates exactly as to when was a particular person arrested.  Mr Mahamba was never charged as we know that he is a cripple.  As regards to 15.2 Phineas Mboleni Posiwa I personally assaulted him very much.

MR MEYER: Before we get to that, were you involved personally in the arrests of all these seven people, or only some of them?

MR RAMALIGELA: It's only 15.5 and 15.6 that I wasn't responsible in the arrest.  However, the rest I was.

MR MEYER: Now after they had been arrested what happened to them?

MR RAMALIGELA: We interrogated them there and then.

MR MEYER: What was the aim of you interrogation?

MR RAMALIGELA: We wanted to ascertain much information on what exactly happened so that we should charge them and they must be sent to court in regard to what they did.

MR MEYER: Did you want to extract confessions from them?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.  We wanted them to confess so that they could be sent to the magistrate, so that there should be a written of oath, there should be a confession rather.  The two did write the confession in statement, namely Mr Posiwa and Mr Poswana.

MR MEYER: Alright, we'll get to that in a while.   Now with regard to the interrogations, were you personally involved with the interrogations of all the detainees?

MR RAMALIGELA: I wasn't actually involved in all of them.  I was involved in as far as Mr Mahamba, Posiwa, Poswana and Mr...(indistinct) and Ravele ...(indistinct).

MR MEYER: Could you just mention those, you said you were involved with Mahamba, Posiwa ...

MR RAMALIGELA: 15.1, 15.2, 15.3, 15.4 and 15.7.

MR MEYER: Now during the interrogations you used methods which are, to call it unconventional might be a bit of an understatement, what took place during these interrogations and what did you do that you are asking amnesty for?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Meyer, maybe to make it easier for your client shouldn't you just request him to relate what kind of assault he committed in respect of those he is admitting to have assaulted?  Probably would be much easier, then he can give a description of what he did to that particular person.

MR MEYER: I'll do so Mr Chairman.  Alright, Director let's start with Mr Mahamba, number 15.1.  Can you explain to the panel what methods you used.  Did you torture him, did you assault him etc?

MR RAMALIGELA: With regard to 15.1, Mr Mahamba, there was no particular method that we use in regard to torture.  We only talked to him about, you normally say to us this ...(indistinct) and all those things, we do agree.
	With regard to 15.2, Mr Posiwa, I used one particular method of him standing for quite a long time without sitting down.  I assaulted him, I hit him, using the open hand.  I used my fist on his stomach.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Used you fist where?

CHAIRPERSON: Stomach.

MR RAMALIGELA: On stomach, yes.

MR MEYER: You mention in you application that you made him do frog-jumps.  Can you explain to the panel what that means?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.  From there I also used the bag full of water and put it on his head.  On that bag I....

SISI KHAMPEPE: He's not answering your question.  You must listen to what your counsel is saying.  What do you mean when you say you made him to frog-jump? That's what he wants you to explain to us.

MR RAMALIGELA: With regard to frog-jump, you know one would squat down with hands above, jumping forward and leaping forward.  Do you want me to demonstrate perhaps?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MR RAMALIGELA: This is how I did.  This is how they would do it for quite a long time.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now when you say for quite a long time can you give an approximation of how many minutes it took for you to order him to do that?  I mean how long he had to do those frog-jumps?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well I can't really tell you exactly how many minutes, because I wasn't actually looking at the watch, but I could see that it was quite a long time, which could not be less that five minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for the record, the witness demonstrated a frog-jump by getting down in a squatting position with both his hands above his head and then keeping the legs bent jumping up and down on the same spot keeping both hands extended above his head.

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes for the record, thank you.

MR MEYER: You were busy also testifying about water and the hood that you placed over his head and so on.

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.  Well I put water, you know put the bag on him and put some water on him.

MR MEYER: Just explain to the panel, what was the aim of putting the hood over his face? What was it made of, and how exactly did you go about using that as a method.

MR RAMALIGELA: That bag, I will normally put that bag in water and just hold on the neck, just to suffocate them, so that they will come to the truth.

MR MEYER: Am I correct, do I understand you correctly then, that when you put this hood over the person's head that he is unable to breath?

MR RAMALIGELA: Yes.  It was difficult to breath.  One will suffocate.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you saying that you put the bag over one's face and you then put the hood, or you mean a hood?

MR MEYER: Yes.  It is not a bag first and then a hood.  It's referred to as a hood, but it is in a form of a bag.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is it what is commonly known among the Security Branch circles as a white-bag method? Is it similar?

MR MEYER: I didn't catch that word, excuse me.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The white-bag method.

MR MEYER: I'm uncertain.  I don't know the term myself.

SISI KHAMPEPE: If Mr Ramaligela you could just explain to us how this bag method was used.  Would you put water - would you submerge it in the water first before putting over somebody's face?

MR RAMALIGELA: Well normally that was the situation.  One will put water after putting on the head, or alternatively, the other way round.  However, in this particular case, I put it on his head and put water on top.