Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-03-25

ADV PRIOR: Yes.  Now you mentioned that with the change of attitude by the Holamisa rule a lot of new business came into the area, such as chain stores and the like which created cash-flow problems for existing business.  How did you, just briefly, how did you cope with those changing conditions as a businessman in that area?  Obviously your business interests were also affected by this influx of business, new business, is that correct?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: That is so.  Well we went into construction as an additional means of income and we starting building, owing property there we started buildings and leasing them out to the chain stores.  That served as another means of income.  And we joined some of the bigger buying organisations like Megasave, which is a Shoprite/Checkers group, to give us purchasing power so that we could oppose the opposition, which we did very successfully.

ADV PRIOR: Now did you ever have any business relationship with Mr Hatting?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No, none whatsoever.

ADV PRIOR: Was there ever a time that such a possibility was discussed between the two of you?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, Mr Hatting asked me on quite a few occasions to join him with business to strengthen our businesses.  It was around the time when Cashbuild came in.  Cashbuild as you all probably know, a large building material ... and both of us were suffering at that time because of the opposition and Mr Hatting approached me and that if we'd join we'd be a better opposing force.  I was not interested.

ADV PRIOR: Did Mr Hatting, did he have a hardware or building supplies business at that stage?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, Mr Hatting and Donald Tsembeye, I think you called him Buyafuti, yes, Buyafuti ...(intervention)

ADV PRIOR: Is it Tsembeye?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Tsembeye.   ... were in partnership together.

ADV PRIOR: And you also had a building supply business?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: That is right.

ADV PRIOR: What happened to your building supply business? - to the premises.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Well it's a premises that I lease.  Probably about, I can't remember the time, but quite a few years before this trouble where we started having attacks it was burnt down.  We suspected arson.

ADV PRIOR: Were the culprits ever brought to book or identified?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: No, no.

ADV PRIOR: But you indicated that it was some time before these specific attacks against people working in Sterkspruit commenced?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, memory - if I go back I would say at least five to six years before.

ADV PRIOR: Alright.  So you say the approach of Mr Hatting in respect of forming a coalition of sorts, a business coalition, you rejected?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes.  I could not associate myself with Mr Tsembeye who was Mr Hatting's partner.

ADV PRIOR: Did you make that clear to Mr Hatting?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: Are you able just briefly to describe the relationship between yourself and Mr Hatting, in a sentence?  Is it a good relationship or a poor relationship?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: I would say it's a poor relationship, he is opposition to me.  Other than that we bear no common interest.

ADV PRIOR: Now you indicated that as far as you were aware, Mr van Rooyen was attacked on his way into Sterkspruit.  It's also common cause that on this particular day - if the Chair will assist me, I don't have the date, I think it was May or April, March '92, sorry, November '92, that Mrs Brummer who I think worked at the Score Supermarket ...(intervention)

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: That is so.

ADV PRIOR: ... and I understand that she worked or was associated with Ms Tsemane who gave evidence, had a lift with Mr Schroeder, who I think worked at one of the furniture shops.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: I'm not sure.

ADV PRIOR: And on the way on the Lady Grey/Herschel portion of the road they were attacked by the applicant and others, who shot at them with automatic weapons, the vehicle came to a standstill, they apparently both alighted, Mr Schroeder ran in a certain direction towards Lady Grey.
	And at that time, Mr Tsemane who was leaving Sterkspruit apparently to do business in Lady Grey or in Aliwal North, I'm not too sure, came upon the scene and it's apparent that he gave Mrs Brummer assistance by taking her aboard the vehicle and turning his vehicle, presumably in order to go back to Sterkspruit, where the vehicle was fired upon, it left the road, Mr Tsemane was fatally injured and Mrs Brummer died some time later in hospital.  Mr Schroeder was also killed alongside the road.  Did you become aware of that incident?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, we've basically got four or five vehicles moving in from Lady Grey every day to different management opening the different businesses, so our or some of the people working for our company were right behind that ambush.

ADV PRIOR: Who was that, who was one of the employees?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Craig Rawson who used to run our wholesale.  I think he was one of the first on the scene.  He was warned by oncoming traffic to turn around, that there'd been an ambush.  He did so, he turned around and alerted everybody else not to proceed.

ADV PRIOR: Now how did that incident affect the community, particularly the business community in Sterkspruit, in the light of the van Rooyen had earlier been attacked as you've described?  How did that affect the business community in Sterkspruit?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Well the business community were very deeply shocked, very scared, very afraid.  I know through all the management that worked for me people didn't want to go to work, they were scared.  I think anybody that's got a possibility of being shot gets scared.  We then took immediate steps and we hired a security firm.

ADV PRIOR: When you say "we", who do you mean?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Our business, our own business.  We hired a security company with an armed vehicle and they used to escort us to work and back because it appeared that, well it didn't appear, it was obvious that the people that were under attack were business people from Sterkspruit, and the early morning and evening is when the people moved, and this is when the attacks took place.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we should perhaps get on the record we have heard this evidence in the past.  You said people were afraid to go to work.  The position was that people worked in Sterkspruit but did not live there.

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: They lived at where, Herschel?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: They lived in Lady Grey, they lived in Aliwal, they lived in Zastron.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is where they - those are the towns they went home to every night and had to go to work from every morning?  And it's on the way to or from work that they were attacked?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: It was - all the attacks that I'm aware of was to work in the morning.

ADV PRIOR: You indicated that the security firm had an armoured vehicle, what would be the modus operandi surrounding the escort or the security that you provided?

CHARLES ALEXANDER MATHER: Well the armoured vehicle would travel ahead, proceed head with weapons so that if anybody wanted to attack we would be able to defend ourselves.  I can't remember the name of this vehicle, but it was quite a large vehicle like used in the army, a "Ratel" I think or something of that nature.  And if at any stage that we felt we could have actually got into that vehicle and be taken with an armoured vehicle backwards and forwards.

ADV PRIOR: How did it work, were people met at a certain spot and then escorted into Sterkspruit?  Could you just describe maybe that.