Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-08

CHAIRPERSON: In conclusion before we adjourn, just try to satisfy my own mind about one additional point, and it is a question which I have put and my colleagues have put to other political parties and other political people participating in our hearings, just so that I can get this clear.
 There was a plan which you helped to devise in your capacity as being in charge of that specific Unit.  There may well be those who say they didn't like the plan and other who say we supported the plan.  But what I would like to know from you General Joubert, is after the plan began to be put into practice, after the implementation of the plan, which included elimination and you can tell us after lunch, how you understood that, did anyone senior to yourself, either militarily or politically come to you and say this is totally unacceptable and you must stop?  And so if you did continue the plan, you were actually disobeying orders?  Now, did that happen?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, I have tried to explain it earlier.  It did not happen like that.  Nobody had told me now stop these actions. After a certain incident as I have referred to it, we decided to develop a procedure to contain this whole thing.

CHAIRPERSON: And once that procedure had been set into place, then you continued with the plan?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Yes, Mr Chairman, afterwards we never worked according to the plan.  The plan stopped.

CHAIRPERSON: You stopped the plan?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: No, the plan came to a standstill.  We did not use the plan anymore.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn until a quarter to two and I would like to mention two things.  One that an additional member of the panel will join as at this time, he has just arrived, he is Commissioner Lyster and second that because of other duties, that I have to attend to, I am not totally sure I can be here the entire time, I will try and do that because I think this is very important, but I will ask Commissioner Ntsebeza to take the Chair so that if I have to leave, for a few minutes at various times, then there can be some continuity.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Can we get settled so that we should start?  Thank you.   Thank you very much.  We are still taking the evidence of Major General Joubert.
 I know that the programme indicates that we should be commencing the testimony of General Meiring.  I don't see him here, but even if he is, I hope he will bear with us as happens with all these things, the testimony in the morning took longer than we have anticipated. If you could then get ready to start.

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Goosen?

MR GOOSEN: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson.  General Joubert, we have spoken about the approval of a procedure in terms of which authorisation would then be granted for a specific operations in accordance with the plan that you presented.  Could you indicate what that procedure was that was agreed upon?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, this procedure was drawn up a long time ago.  I can't remember the exact detail, but I will try and recall as well as I can but in brief it boiled down to whenever we had to work with the Police, or whenever we had to support the Police, it meant that let us say and let's say a target had been identified, then a joint plan would be drawn up at an appropriate level, and then that plan would have to be at various levels in the Police, right up to the highest level, that plan would have to be approved, and only then could the operation be executed.  This is in broad terms as I can remember it, Mr Chairman.

MR GOOSEN: And that would have been a procedure, the target that you are talking about, there would have been a target identified for elimination in a joint operation?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Yes, not ... (intervention)

MR GOOSEN: Not exclusively, but it would include that?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Yes, Mr Chairman, it could have included that, but it could have been any target.  Not necessarily a person who had to be eliminated.  It could have been the destruction of a facility or something like that.

MR GOOSEN: I accept that, but it would also include, the same procedure as it were, the same principle would apply there in respect of a target identified for elimination?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is correct, that is correct.

MR GOOSEN: Fine.  Could you indicate General Joubert, I know it is a long time back, but would you be able to give some indication as to when that procedure was then put in place approximately?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, to be quite honest with you, it would have been round about say the end of 1986 or the beginning of 1987, but honestly I can't remember.

MR GOOSEN: Okay.  All right, no I accept that it might be difficult to recall specifically when such a procedure might have been appointed.  In terms of joint operations in which the Special Forces were deployed in support of the SAP using unconventional methods as you have indicated in the plan that you devised, operations continued in accordance with the approval procedure after the procedure was put in place, is that correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: No, that is Mr Chairman, as I said before.  As I tried to explain, after the procedure had been put in place, this plan was not being used anymore.

MR GOOSEN: I am not quite sure that I follow.  Perhaps we can come to it in this way.
 During late 1985 and early 1986, you indicate also in the broad context in your amnesty application it was also reflected in the submission made or presented by General Viljoen earlier today, there was a shift in the strategy deployed by the revolutionary forces, by the ANC in particular, which necessitated a in reaction to that shift in strategy, a change in the approach adopted by the South African Security Forces, it is in that context that it became necessary to deploy Special Forces using unconventional revolutionary methods in support of the South African Police.  
 And it is in that context that you devised a plan.  Are you saying that the necessity for the deployment of Special Forces, using unconventional methods, in support of the South African Police evaporated after the procedure for putting that in place, was in fact put in place?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, that is what I said.  That is what I said but the procedure was only as I have said, I don't know the exact date, but it could be in the beginning of 1987.

MR GOOSEN: Yes.  You described the situation in 1986, in the mid 1980's, 1986 and through the period in which you were the Officer Commanding Special Forces as a period in which we were involved in full scale war, is that correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is correct, yes.

MR GOOSEN: You indicate that you put in place a plan, certain operations were carried out.  At a certain point a procedure for approval was put in place?  Does it follow that your in consequence of the operations that were carried out in accordance with the plan that you devised, that the security situation in the country changed so dramatically for the better, that it was no longer necessary to deploy Special Forces in support of the SAP using unconventional or revolutionary methods into 1987?  Were we no longer in a situation of full scale war?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: No, no Mr Chairman, we were still in a situation of full scale war.  The only difference was that the Police didn't ask for Special Forces to support them in their operations.

MR GOOSEN: I never understood from the context of your amnesty application and the evidence presented, that this was solely that the deployment of Special Forces was solely in consequence of a request from the SAP, are you saying that that is the case?  It was only on a request from the SAP?