Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

JOE MAMASELA: Ja, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: Was your participation in the assault from the outset, when the assault on Hashe started, was your participation also to assist in killing him?

JOE MAMASELA: Those were my instructions yes, that we must assist them in killing these people.  Those were my instructions, yes.

MR LAMEY: You knew what it was going to entail?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, I knew what it was going to entail.

MR LAMEY: Brutal mob-like attack?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

MR LAMEY: And still you got a fright?

JOE MAMASELA: And still I got a fright, it's natural, I'm human.  I've seen soldiers running away, throwing away their tanks and their rifles out of fright.

MR LAMEY: After you poured water over him, also as a humanitarian act notwithstanding that the intention was to kill him, according to your evidence you said
"He regained consciousness and began to talk"
Is that correct?

JOE MAMASELA: That is correct, I said it yesterday.

MR LAMEY: And then you referred to the 17 AK47's?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, this is what he told Niewoudt, that is what he told us.

MR LAMEY: And it was subsequent to this that Niewoudt started with quoting from the bible?

JOE MAMASELA: Not necessarily, that man Niewoudt is devoted to his bible, he knows his bible by head.  He quoted the bible better than Jimmy Swaggert.

MR LAMEY: No, but it was after Hashe gained his consciousness and after he spoke about the AK47's that Niewoudt started to quote from the bible?

JOE MAMASELA: I don't whether it was before or after but he did quote from the bible, so I cannot tell you.

MR LAMEY: Did he mention names of ANC people?

JOE MAMASELA: No, I told you yesterday that he did not mention any significant names of ANC people that me and Piet Mogoai can make any significant analysis of.  He mainly talked about his organisation, the PEBCO and how it functioned, it's structures and whatever and the boycotts they were involved in and, you know, that stuff.

MR LAMEY: Are you saying that he did not mention about ANC people?

JOE MAMASELA: No, to me he was asked about his daughters: "Where are your daughters"?, that's when he mentioned the ANC people.  He said: "My daughter is married to an ANC chap in Lesotho", I forgot the name.  And then he said: "My other daughter is married to Popo Molefe" who was a UDF member by then, so that was that.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mamasela, you said it was quoted
"He started talking well"

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible] or did he speak in the way you would have like him to speak, he spoke excellently or did he speak about many things?

JOE MAMASELA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I think I've elaborated too very well yesterday how he spoke, I even said he spoke inherently.  I couldn't hear some of the things, some were insignificant.
	To me appeared as a completely confused person and it appeared as though he was trying to save himself from more punishment.  That's what I've said Mr Chairman, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR LAMEY: Did he say anything of significance after he was revived by the water?

JOE MAMASELA: I wouldn't say anything of significance.  Like I said yesterday, he blurted out a lot of things.

MR LAMEY: Like what?

JOE MAMASELA: Like the ones I'm telling you now, 17 AK47's, the daughter, and he talked about his organisation, the work and the boycotts and to me it didn't make sense because most of what he said is what Niewoudt said, they've got that information.  He wanted the ANC, he wanted the guns, he wanted this, he was actually leading him to what he wants and the poor old man couldn't make head or tail of what he must do.  	Then, he then said: "Oh, I've got 17 AK47's", it is then that I knew that I couldn't believe him because it's after Niewoudt has forced him about these DLB's and his ANC contacts, that he said he has 17 AK47's stashed up at his sisters place.  He even described his sister's place to me.

MR LAMEY: Well if duress and assault had to be used to get that out of him, why did you think that that is not correct?

JOE MAMASELA: No, if you assault a man to, that much until he becomes unconscious and when he wakes up he's still busy, he's still dizzy, a lot of people say a lot of things, including myself.  Under my interrogation I said a lot of things that were hullabaloo, that were insignificant, trying to save myself from more blows because - it's a pity.  I wish you could have been black in those days, you would ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I think you have made your point Mr Mamasela.

MR LAMEY: Did he also at that stage mention names of ANC people?

JOE MAMASELA: No, he didn't mention names.  I just asked him: "Where are you daughters"? and he said: "One is married by an ANC chap in Lesotho", ANC chap is not a name.  We wanted names, he couldn't provide the names.  He said the other one is married to Popo Molefe, that's the only name he mentioned and Popo Molefe by then was a UDF chap.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Lamey, can I just ask a question in relation to this?
	Mr Mamasela, we have been told that one of the reasons why the PEBCO were abducted and eliminated was because they were sending people away for military training.  Now, you've just said something about the mentioning of names, was any particular name mentioned to Mr Hashe in the course of that interrogation, a name of a person whom he had sent away for military training?

JOE MAMASELA: No, no, no, no, there was nothing like that.  These people, most of the investigation centred around, they wanted his ANC contact of DLB's.  They never asked him about: "Are you recruiting for ANC and whatever", they didn't care about that.  The central point was: "Where are your ANC contacts inside"? and "Where are you DLB's"?

ADV SANDI: Was any name or names mentioned of any people who had received military training whom he was harbouring somewhere in Port Elizabeth or anywhere in the Eastern Cape?

JOE MAMASELA: No, Mr Chairman, that's a blatant lie, no mention was mentioned to that effect, no.

MR LAMEY: And you state now Mr Mamasela that this talk, it was just talk about his daughters and the fact that he was married to someone, to Mr Popo Molefe, is that correct?  This is what he spoke about after he regained his consciousness?

JOE MAMASELA: No, let me explain to you.  Before he revived, after he revived his consciousness, prior to that he was asked in a very ridiculous way: "hulle het hom gespot" by Niewoudt that: "What are you doing for a living"? and he said: "No, I'm a vegetable vendor and then also I have a shebeen, I run a shebeen at my house", then Niewoudt said: "Oh, you're a bladdy capitalist too", then he asked him: "Where are your daughters"?, then he said: "No, one of my daughters is married to the ANC chap in Lesotho and the other one is married to Popo Molefe", then he said: "Oh, you love so money that you even seel your daughters to the ANC".  	That was the whole thing, and then they asked him: "What about the policemen that you people in your PEBCO organisation, that you are chasing out of the township and now these poor policemen are pitching up tents in town"?   It is then that he said: "No, these policemen are doing the right thing by staying with the white people in town, that's what the ANC stands for".  Then he was beaten to such - and I don't think that is the reason, they wanted spark to start the beating.

MR LAMEY: Now Mr Mamasela, so the talk about his daughters was prior to his assault?

JOE MAMASELA: That's true.

MR LAMEY: Now what did he talk about after reviving his consciousness?

JOE MAMASELA: After reviving his consciousness, I put it clear that he talked about 17 AK47's that he stashed at his sister's place, he described his sister's place where the things were stashed, wood floors, a carpet and whatever, that is what he described to us.
	And then he started talking about the PEBCO, his organisation, the marches they had, the successful boycotts they had.