Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1997-03-17

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Yes, the Police that were attached from the original  place where I was attached to, that is how they behaved.   If you are to interrogate someone, that was the order of the day.

MR BRINK: I can understand that in the circumstances which happened in South Africa in the old days that detainees were knocked about and beaten up, I can understand that.   What I cannot understand is the way you behaved, particularly in regard to these women.   In the most revolting ...(tape ends)

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: The way I tortured and ill-treated these women this is the way the police conducted themselves.  I found the situation as thus.  I just continued on the job as the others did.

MR BRINK: Yes and I am not surprised you say you could not mention it to your wife and children in paragraph 64 of
your statement.   Now it is correct, isn't that none of these victims made any confessions to you of subversive activities in the then Ciskei?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: They never revealed anything.   Miss Msutwana and Brig Simandla did not admit to what I was asking them.

MR BRINK: Let's deal briefly with Miss Msutwana.  She was arrested or detained rather, on the 23rd of October 1986.  Do you remember that?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Yes I do remember.

MR BRINK: On the same day she was appallingly treated by you and your colleagues.

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Yes Sir.

MR BRINK: Notwithstanding that grossly inhuman behaviour on EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
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your part she admitted nothing.

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: It is so.

MR BRINK: And she was then left without any medical attention for a period of five days until the 28th of October 1986, when she was seen by a doctor.   It is in the record.

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: The medical attention that she was meant to have was dependent on the Captain of that particular police station.

MR BRINK: This woman was left alone for five days after the most savage, brutal and revolting assaults upon her and she had not made any confession whatsoever, please explain that?

JUDGE WILSON: Did you have anything to do with her for those five days Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Did you visit her during those five days?
That was after the time the assaults ceased and until she received medical attention.

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: No, I did not have anything to do with her in those five days.

MR BRINK: Did you not think to see how she was getting on?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: I was too scared to go, because I was going to be accused of working with her, collaborating with her.   The captain of the station was meant to look after her or after her needs.

MR BRINK: Did you tell the captain, we have treated this woman very badly, we have tortured her, we have got nothing from her, would you not go and see her and see whether or not she should see a doctor?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Yes, I did tell him.

MR BRINK: Now you say, or your evidence was to the effect that what you did to these women in particular, the treatment you gave Brig Simandla was bad enough, but the treatment you gave to these women in particular, you say, you did not do it willingly?
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KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Yes Sir.

MR BRINK: It seems to me from reading the record that you had the most, from your point of view, enjoyably sadistic time.

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: No Sir, it is not so.  As a man who was married it was painful to me, but it was because of the circumstances that we worked under.

MR BRINK: You were laughing at these women.  You were laughing at them.   You only laugh if you are happy.

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: I did not laugh because I was happy at all.  You had to appear as if you were enjoying the job, so that it does not appear like you are working together with the victims.  It was painful.  It is painful to this day.

MR BRINK: Yes I can understand it is painful in retrospect.  You were a married man at the time.  Were you not?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Yes I was married at the time.

MR BRINK: And your colleagues were married men at the time.  Were they not?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Yes Sir.

MR BRINK: And as married men did you not think women
deserve some respect even if they were political enemies?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: Yes they had to be treated with respect.  If we had not been given the instructions that we must torture them, I do admit that they were ill-treated, but this is because of the instructions that we received.  We had to torture them.   Even though to us it was painful to do so.

MR BRINK: So painful that you laughed at them.

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: I was not laughing.  I had to pretend that I was enjoying my job. If I had to sulk it would have repercussions.  Police would be detained just because you had a negative attitude.  This was under 2R52.  These are the painful
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circumstances we worked under.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Thoba, you were given instructions to torture your subjects with a view of extracting information relating to the activities of Illisolomzi, is it not so?   And you were not given instructions to torture in order to gain more information about the nature of your victim's private parts.

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: It was one of the ways in which during torturing someone you would be just endeavouring to abstract the truth, so that when you give a report back to the person who gave  instructions you would go with a positive report.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Brink you have no further questions?
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: (s.u.o.)

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman may I just address you briefly.  During the adjournment and following upon discussions with my colleague appearing for the applicants it has been agreed after consultation with the two victims present that there is no need for Mr Hole to read out the remaining applicants' affidavits.   The copies which the Committee has will be made available to both victims and in those circumstances then Mr Hole is at liberty to put certain questions to his clients on the basis of these statements made and whether or not I cross-examination would depend on what comes out.  It is very unlikely I will be doing any further cross-examination.
	I may say that Brig Simandla and Miss Msutwana, certainly Brigadier, has indicated that he does not oppose, I don't know whether it's the right stage to mention this, but before I forget he does not oppose the applications for amnesty, he says in the interests of reconciliation in this country.   Miss Msutwana is EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
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more equivocal about that.  She does not, however, wish to give evidence but both of them have asked me to have this matter referred to the Human Rights Violations Committee and the 
Rehabilitation and Reparations Committee.

JUDGE WILSON: I take it the affidavits will become public documents.   Other people also want access to them.

MR BRINK: Oh yes, oh yes.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Hole these documents will now by consent, the statements of the affidavits will now no longer be - will be read into the record.
	You may then proceed to put such questions as you would like to, to the applicants.

MR HOLE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Who are we dealing with now?

MR HOLE: I propose to deal with applicant No 2, Mr Thompson.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Before you proceed to deal with the evidence of Mr Thompson, may I just ask Mr Thoba one question.  I want to know where did you obtain the substance which you poured on the private parts of Miss Msutwana, this Isiqwapaqwapa?   Where was this obtained from?

KWANALE ENOCH THOBA: This Isiqwapaqwapa, the substance I found it from members of the Security Police, W/O Makwetu in the Zwelitsha Police Station and Sergeant Mzimkulu.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was it normally used in the interrogation of victims?