Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1988-01-19

MR VISSER: If I may reply Mr Chairman?  I submit that the proper way of identification is precisely the way in which we are going about it.  You asked the witness to describe whether he can say that the person was tall, short, stout, thin, whether there are any specific features of this person that he can remember so that we can know who he's talking about Mr Chairperson.

MR STANDER: ...[inaudible]

MR VISSER: I'm not wasting time Mr Chairman, I'm doing this according to the prescripts of our law, with great respect.

MR STANDER: Sal jy asseblief vir my 'n kans gee?

MR VISSER: And there is nothing unreasonable in the question.

MR STANDER: Mr Chair, there a much better method. If my learned friend wants this person to be pointed out, why do we not organise an identification parade?  That would sort the problem out much easier.

MR VISSER: Because I don't want to waster time Mr Chairman, and I don't understand why my learned friend is so concerned about what his witness can or cannot answer.  It's a perfectly legitimate question, just describe the man to us.  And the reason for that is quite an obvious one ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Let's ask another question first.
	You say you know this man as Erasmus?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you seen him before?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: Many occasions.

CHAIRPERSON: Many occasions?  Do you know what he looks like?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: Many occasions when I was arrested and taken to Fountain.  He was among those people who went to fetch me in the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what he looks like?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: When coming to explain his features, that would be impossible for me to do that because I would say he's short and I would not know as whether I would be putting his characters correctly.

CHAIRPERSON: You say he was short?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a thin man or a well-built man?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: I'm not able to remember.

CHAIRPERSON: And is that all you can remember about him?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, there's nothing sinister turns about it - on it.
	You see Mr Mzuzwana, I appear for a gentlemen called Erasmus, that's Colonel Erasmus and by your description it appears that it is probably the person that you're referring to.  Perhaps to make it absolutely clear, while we were in the other hall on previous occasions, did you see Mr Erasmus there - the one that you're referring to, in my company and talking to me?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: I didn't see him standing with you but I saw him in that hall many times.

MR VISSER: That's the person I'm going to refer to in my questions I put to you.  Will you please tell us, because you failed to do so in your evidence in chief, what precisely he did to you on the occasion that you referred to when you were arrested?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: He was assaulting me.  I remember one day when we were arrested whilst we were selling newspapers, he told me how he would shoot me because I denied to be his informer.

MR VISSER: Is that the assault you're talking about?  He threatened to shoot you, is that what you're talking about?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: I remember that day which I've explained.  He assaulted me on many occasions.  A certain day they showed me a ...[indistinct] - the window, and they would throw me outside if I denied to work with them.

MR VISSER: Now let me see whether I understand your evidence.  Is your evidence now that Colonel Erasmus assaulted you on more than one occasion?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Are you able to recall on how many occasions?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: I'm not able to remember how many but it was many occasions.  They used to come to my place and take me to assault me, Erasmus was in the company of those police.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Well, perhaps I should ask you, who were the other police in whose company he was? - that you keep on referring to?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: ...[inaudible] present, Meningwa was present, Mamome, Swanepoel, Terreblanche and Ngo and Motsamai.

MR VISSER: Let me try to understand.  Is it every time that they came to your house, was it this group of people as well as Erasmus or did the group change, the individuals in the group change from time to time?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: At times three people would come to fetch me but at times they would come in different numbers on different occasions but Erasmus would always be there.

MR VISSER: Will you please explain to the Committee why you didn't tell us in your evidence in chief, about the other assaults that you're now telling us about? - you only spoke of one assault.

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: I didn't say I was assaulted once but I said I was assaulted on many occasions.

MR VISSER: Did you tell Mr Stander about more than one assault on you when you consulted with him?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Visser, isn't that what he said?  I mean, he said I was - I'm saying that is what he told us, he said he was arrested on several occasions.
	"Were you tortured every time"? - "Yes"
	"Were Ngo and Motsamai always there"? - "Yes"
So he has told us that he was assaulted on many occasions.

MR VISSER: I'm talking about Erasmus and ...[intervention]

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: No, no, well then you should have said so, because what you've put to him - you are saying to him that, why did he not tell us earlier on that he had been assaulted on many occasions.

MR VISSER: I thought I did make it plain and I'm sorry if I didn't.  I said to him: "The questions I'm going to direct to you concern Mr Erasmus"? and I'm sorry if I didn't do it clearly and I will refrain from being  unclear about it in future. I'm talking - if I may continue?
	I'm talking about Mr Erasmus, Colonel Erasmus, Mr Mzuzwana, please - I'm sorry if I misled you with my questions.  I'm putting it to you that you gave evidence of one occasion in your evidence in chief where Mr Erasmus was involved in an assault on you.  Is that correct or not?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: I don't know how I should answer this question because I've already answered this question.  It's many time when Mr Erasmus was involved in the assaults.

MR VISSER: Did you tell Mr Stander that when you consulted with him?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: Yes, I did.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  How did Mr Erasmus assault you on any of these occasions?  Now, I think you must pick an occasion so that you can tell us what happened.  In your evidence in chief you referred to the occasion when you were arrested and Erasmus you said, came to fetch you from your house, is that correct?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Was that only on one occasion, that he came to fetch you from your house or was there other occasions?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: I don't know what to say.  May I speak Xhosa?  I reply to that question and then you turn the question around.  Where should I go, which direction should I take to answer your question?

MR VISSER: Presumably you should just tell me the truth Mr Mzuzwana.