Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-19

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning ladies and gentlemen.  I take it you are ready to start?

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, before we proceed, today being the 19th of January 1999, may I take the liberty of handing over as Evidence Leader to Mr Zuko Mapoma, who is the new Evidence Leader, I will still remain on to assist the Committee where necessary.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Prior for your assistance, yes.  The applicants are still busy with their case.  Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the next witness or applicant I am calling is Bhekinkosi Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom, are the applicants who were not here yesterday, here today?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the majority of the people are here today.  The two people from Kroonstad prison, are apparently on their way.  We just had a, my Attorney just phoned the prison and they said they left some time ago, so I expect them to be here any moment.
	That is Timothy Stalls Mazibuko and Jack Mbele.

CHAIRPERSON: From which prison are they, from Kroonstad?  Now what about Magubane and Mkwanazi?

MR STRYDOM: As far as Mkwanazi is concerned, I have absolutely nothing to say about him, he was in custody.  Apparently he was released.  There was no further contact with him since the previous hearing, and I can't state anything about his whereabouts at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Magubane?

MR STRYDOM: Mr Magubane's situation is a bit difficult because I again, personally, phoned the Klerksdorp prison who said that the last time he was there, was when he was booked out to come here on the 3rd of July last year, and he was sent to the Vereeniging prison, but according to the Vereeniging prison, he is not there.
	I don't know if he was released at a certain time, I cannot image so because he is not out on bail on the criminal case in the Boipatong matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Or he may simply have disappeared into the system?

MR STRYDOM: It seems so, but we are following that up.

CHAIRPERSON: What about those applicants who were not here yesterday, Moses Mthembu, Sipho Buthelezi, Petrus Mdiniso, Mxoliseni Mkhize, Richard Dlamini and Paulos Mbatha, are they here?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the following people are here today:  Moses Mthembu, Petrus Mdiniso, Paulos Mbatha and Richard Dlamini.
	The people who aren't here ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mxoliseni Mkhize and Sipho Buthelezi?

MR STRYDOM: That is indeed so, and Mr Tshabangu, but he already testified.  He is also not here.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he here yesterday?

MR STRYDOM: No Chairperson, he wasn't here yesterday either.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me get a note of that.  His name is Mlupeki Tshabangu, yes.  Shall I make a note of that?  Now, these four applicants who are here today, who were not here yesterday, what is their explanation for not being here yesterday?

MR STRYDOM: They told me that on the previous occasion, only the date was mentioned, but not the venue.  My Attorney last week made contact with Mr Tshabangu, he is the only person with a telephone, to inform the other people about the venue.
	Mr Tshabangu is not here, but the people inform me that they did not get the message that the resumed hearing will take place at the same venue, and they were uncertain as to where it was going to be and that is why they weren't here.

CHAIRPERSON: How did they know that it is here today?

MR STRYDOM: The people that were here yesterday, went out yesterday to notify them.

CHAIRPERSON: What steps did they take to find out from their Attorneys where the hearing was going to be?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, they did not contact me or my Attorney as far as I am aware.  I can just mention that these people, they don't have telephones.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  Moses Mthembu, Moses Mthembu is here?  Petrus Mdiniso, Richard Dlamini, Paulos Mbatha?
	What steps did you take to ensure, to find out where the hearings were going to be held?

MR MTHEMBU: I am Moses Mthembu, as a person who is an employee, I was expecting to be told just where the venue would be.      I did want to know, but I could not find out, and even where we stay, we do not have a telephone.  I had assumed that the lawyer, our Attorney, would actually come to us to inform us, but I was determined and I was prepared to come here.  I am very sorry.

MR MDINISO: I had expected that the Attorney normally tells us just where the venue would be, but this did not happen this time.  Also the reason that we do not have a telephone at home, we could not contact him, and I did not come because I did not have knowledge where the venue was.  I do beg your pardon.

MR DLAMINI: I am Richard Dlamini, the same thing happened to me as well.  I was prepared to come, but I did not receive information about the venue.

CHAIRPERSON: What is amusing, I see you smiling?

MR DLAMINI: I am sorry for not showing up yesterday, I had thought that our Attorney would come to inform us about the venue, but he did not come.

MR MBATHA: I am Paulos Mbatha.  I beg your pardon, I was away at home in kwaZulu Natal and came back on Sunday and our car broke down along the way, and I arrived late in Johannesburg.

CHAIRPERSON: For the record, the explanation for not being present here, given by Mthembu, Mdiniso and Dlamini is not acceptable.
	You are the applicants in these matters, it is your responsibility to find out where the hearings are, not that of your Attorney.  If your Attorney doesn't contact you, you must make every effort to make sure that you find out where the venue is because otherwise this interferes with your colleagues who are in custody and in whose interest this matter was be expedited.
	It has been going on for some time.  Whilst you may not necessarily be responsible for the delay yesterday, but I think it ought to be mentioned, that in future, you've got to take every effort to ensure that you are here so that your application can be proceeded with.  Do you understand that?
	Yes, I accept the explanation by Mbatha that the car broke down, and therefore he could not be here yesterday.  Mr Strydom, you may proceed.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson, I am calling the next applicant then, Mr Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: In view of the fact that it is probably unbearably hot, please feel free to take off your coats.
	How are we going to deal with Magubane and Mkwanazi?

MR STRYDOM: In the light of the fact that they are legally represented, I will ask that the hearing continues in their absence, I am sure that they will be here very soon.
	I was referring actually to the people from Kroonstad.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I mean the others Magubane and Mkwanazi.
	It seems to me that perhaps what we - we propose proceeding with the applications of those who are present here and if we come to the end of the hearings, and both Magubane and Mkwanazi are not here, we would propose to struck their applications off the roll at that stage.
	What is your attitude Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I will go along with that because there may be an explanation, so I would not like that the applications be struck off now, before I get instructions and find out why they are not here.  We can only find that out in due course.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, I accept the position.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, what is your attitude?

MR BERGER: We are quite happy with that position Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes very well, we would proceed then.  Would you proceed?

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson.  I am calling Bhekinkosi Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for the purposes of communication, channel 2 is English, channel 3 is Sotho and channel 4, is Zulu.
	Mr Mkhize, what language are you going to speak?  Please stand up, please give us your full names?

MR MKHIZE: Bhekinkosi Mkhaklazeni Mkhize.

BHEKINKOSI MKHAKLAZENI MKHIZE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may sit down.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry Chairperson, I noticed that in your application, there is the name Mbekiseni, is that also your name?