Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

GLADWELL SELAHLE: We saw them and the description that we were given, corresponded with the people we saw.  That is why we killed him.

ADV BOSMAN: What description were you given, in what regard, in what way were they described, in relation to what?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: How they were clothed.  They were wearing jackets and overalls and then the three people we saw, were wearing the same clothes as described.

ADV BOSMAN: Are you telling the Committee that two months after the incident, Mr Mkhabela was wearing the same clothes that he had been wearing on the day that he ran into the hostel?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is not so.  It was our third time to see him.  We were going to eliminate him when we met him for the second time, and we did not succeed, but the third time we did succeed.

ADV BOSMAN: All right, the second time you saw him, was he wearing the same clothes?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: No.

ADV BOSMAN: So how did you recognise him?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: We saw them when we were moving out of the hostel and then they re getting in.  They did not cover their faces.  We saw their faces and we managed to see their faces.

ADV BOSMAN: Are you now telling us that you recognised them from both their clothes, the description and their faces?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: We saw them on the faces and the description of clothes that we were given, matched their clothing.

ADV BOSMAN: Tell me was their blood on your clothes when you were arrested?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes, my T-shirt had blood.

ADV BOSMAN: Where did this blood come from?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: From the deceased, when you are shot at, I was outside at the door.  He was handing me the change.  Because of the close range, the blood spilt onto me.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Interpreter, I didn't quite get that, because of the ....

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Because of the close range, the blood spilt onto me.

ADV BOSMAN: Spilt?   Did you tell your sister that you had been assaulted?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I told her.

ADV BOSMAN: Who assaulted you?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: The police t the police station.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you tell anybody that the blood was from the assault?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I never told anybody that.

ADV BOSMAN: Madam Chair for the record, it does say in the judgement that it could have been from the assault, he didn't in fact tell anybody that.  I don't want to prejudice him with my question.
	Just one more question, where was Peter in relation to you when he shot the deceased?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I stated that I went to the driver's side at the window, and Peter approached behind me and he pointed a gun and shot at the driver.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, but he must have been to your side, either to the left or to the right, do you know where he was?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: He was on the left side.

ADV BOSMAN: There was evidence given at the trial, that the person who shot him, must have been very close to the deceased.  This is on page 61 of the proceedings.
	Mr Mohlaba, if you could perhaps just indicate that to your client, it is in Afrikaans.
	I shall try to just translate it, the third line from the bottom of page 61, it is page 55 the record, do you have it?  Paginated page 61.
	Do you have the bundle Mr Mohlaba, do you have page 61?

MR MOHLABA: Certainly page 61 in my bundle, it is ...

ADV BOSMAN: Three lines from the bottom of the page, it says the would was inflicted at a very close range according to Dr Bekker, that is the medical Doctor who had drafted the, who had done the autopsy, at a range of approximately 10 centimetres and then it proceeds to say any person who had stood to the left of the accused, that is now the applicant here, it says any person to the left of the accused, would probably have had much difficulty in getting so close to the deceased without having to push the accused, that is the applicant, away.
	Do you understand what I have just read from the record Mr Selahle?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I do understand that.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you at all comment on that?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I stated before that I was very close to the driver, and he approached, he forced his hand and he shot.  I was standing straight, opposite the window.
	He came close to me, he was very close to me.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you see Peter's hand?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes, he stood next to me but because I was almost covering the whole window, he stretched his hand and shot at him.

ADV BOSMAN: Did he touch you?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Who?

ADV BOSMAN: Did he touch you when he shot, Peter?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Who?

ADV BOSMAN: Did Peter touch you when he shot?  Did he touch you with his arm or his hand?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: He did not, when I saw him approaching, I shifted I thought he would stand next to me, but he was not that close and I shifted and he stretched his hand and shot.

ADV BOSMAN: How far away from the deceased was his hand, did you see?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: It was not far.  It was myself, Mr Mohlaba here ...

CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand what he was saying because he was now speaking away from the microphone?

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, the Interpreters did not get that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Will you repeat what you said, the description of where Peter ... (tape ends) ... try and make sure that you don't speak away from the microphone, because when you do that, the Translators are unable to pick up what you are saying.

GLADWELL SELAHLE: As Mr Mohlaba is sitting just here, I stood next to Mr Mohlaba, Peter approached from behind and I stood a little bit back and he stretched his hand, he shot at him.
	When he shot at him, he was facing at me but his hand, facing the deceased and he shot him to the head.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, do you have any questions to put to Mr Selahle?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Selahle, I just want to take you back to the incident which gave rise to this whole state of affairs coming about.
	Did I understand you correctly that you said you went to the scene where this taxi had been shot,  you saw that there were six people dead and a number of others were injured there, is that right?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

MR LAX: And you then asked those people who were there for a description of who had attacked them?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: We asked those people what happened and they gave us the description, they told us the people who committed this act, were clothed in such a way and they ran to this direction.

MR LAX: You see in your first part of your evidence, you said that when you got to the taxi and you asked the people what had happened, they didn't know what had happened.  That was your earliest evidence?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes, that is what I told you.

MR LAX: Well then if they did not know what had happened, how could they describe the attackers to you?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Maybe you did not understand me.  We did not ask the - the taxi was parked outside and there were spectators, the people who came to watch what was happening, we asked them, those who were watching and they told us what happened.  We did not speak to the people in the taxi.  We actually enquired from the people who were standing around, watching.

MR LAX: Yes, wasn't the taxi at a four way stop some distance from the hostel?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: You are correct.

MR LAX: You must have arrived there some time after this had happened?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

MR LAX: Now, a whole lot of people were gathered there and the people who were gathered there said to you, gave you a description?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

MR LAX: Right, well, that is not what you said in your earlier evidence?  Who were the people in the taxi, did you know them, did you identify them?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I did not know them.  They were passengers going to work in the morning.

MR LAX: From where, do you know?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: From the township.  They were from the township.

MR LAX: How do you know that if you didn't find out who they were?