Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-12

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Well from 1980 to 1983 I think I worked for nine months between those three years and I had very little contact with - I was on the beach.  From 1983 I started working for the Toyota group which was a different - November '83, then I started becoming more conscientiously aware, working with my work colleagues on the floor day and night, what was going on.

MR BERGER: And what did you discover was going on from 1983 onwards.

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: That there was a lot of internal conflict besides the apartheid problems.

MR BERGER: And that there was a struggle for liberation going on in the country, did you know that?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Not too clearly no, I knew there was a conflict going on but I didn't realise that it was so close onto the doorstep, that immediate until the Chamberlain Road, twice our company was effected through the Chamberlain Road substation.

MR BERGER: Did you know in 1986 that black South Africans were denied the right to vote?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: In 1986?

MR BERGER: Yes and had been ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That they were denied the vote in 1986 but that during that period they had no right to vote, they didn't have the franchise?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: I think I was aware of that.

MR BERGER: You think you were aware of that?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: I'm trying to recall back, in 1986 I had my own conflicts as well, family life.  Ja, there must have - I'm actually not sure that they were denied the right to vote in 1986.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it was ambiguous.  The question you put was "did you know that in 1986 the black Africans were denied the right to vote" and I think it's being interpreted that that only started in 1986.  I think if you could just rephrase it Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Did you know that in 1980, let's start in 1980, the only South Africans who had the right to vote and this is a situation which had been in the country for decades, centuries, was white South Africans?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Yes I was aware of that.

MR BERGER: And did you know that in 1983 the government then introduced a tricameral parliament, did you know that?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: I only started learning about tricameral in a  passage here the other day.  Hey listen, I'm not into politics, I've never really been into politics so I don't know - you know if you want honest answers I'm going to try my best to give you honest answers.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, I think we needn't cross-examine him about his political knowledge, he has given the evidence that he was in the bar when it exploded, he hasn't come here saying that he was fully aware of the politics of the country etc.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I take the point.  Mr Jeffers, the only point I want to make is that it appears and correct me if I'm wrong, it appears that your world revolved around surfing and going to the bar and going to work and you weren't concerned with anything outside of that, would that be fair?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: No, not totally fair because quite a few of my work colleagues used to come home with me, spend time with me prior to 1986.

MR BERGER: Did you frequent other bars besides the Why Not and Magoo's bar in 1986?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Yes I did.

MR BERGER: So would it be correct to say that you didn't only go to a bar once a week, you went to several bars during the course of any week?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: No, that would not be correct to say that.

MR BERGER: At the time when you were frequenting the Magoo's bar and the Why Not bar, was that the only bar that you were frequenting?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: On weekends, yes.

MR BERGER: And during the week you would frequent other bars?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: During the week I wouldn't frequent other bars.

MR BERGER: Okay.  Now you say that you had a couple of friends that also used to meet at the Why Not bar?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: That's generally where I would find my friends, at the Why Not bar.

CHAIRPERSON: So the situation is you would go to the bar and more often than not there would be people there who you knew?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't say make the arrangement of the group of you saying look, we'll meet at 8 o'clock at the Why Not or Magoo's?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: No.

MR BERGER: And if you could, could you estimate the size of your circle of friends who would frequent the Why Not bar or the Magoo's bar at that time?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Well generally I knew a lot of people as acquaintances but friends, one Saturday the one lot of friends would be there, the next Saturday or Friday night a different lot of friends would be there.

JUDGE PILLAY: And in total, what did that total?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Total?

JUDGE PILLAY: How many friends would that be?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: At one given time at one night?

JUDGE PILLAY: All your friends whenever you got there, you would sit around and drink?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: There would be about five, six of us.

MR BERGER: Did you know or do you know Dennis Eaby?

CHAIRPERSON: Spell that surname please?

MR BERGER: Eaby - E-A-B-Y.

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: I can't recall.

MR BERGER: Did you know or do you know Paula Harvey?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: I think I only met her in the hospital, I didn't know her beforehand.

MR BERGER: Did you know Michael Blair?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: The name rings a bell, I might have known - I knew a couple of Michaels, I don't know surnames even today, I don't remember surnames very much.

JUDGE PILLAY: Do you remember the names of your friends?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Ja.

JUDGE PILLAY: Those six people that you said formed a circle.

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: At given times, five, six people.

JUDGE PILLAY: Any of these names one of those friends?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Which names?   David Fletcher was a friend of mine.

CHAIRPERSON: Like Michael Blair and Dennis Eady, you've mentioned Dave Fletcher.  When you say you would go there and meet friends, were these people that you initially met at the Why Not, started chatting and got to know each other as one of the regulars and they were regulars, you used to talk to each other?  Or when you say you were friends would you invite them around to your house for dinner or they invite you for dinner or you go elsewhere together beyond the environs of the Why Not or were they strictly speaking just people you would meet at the Why Not?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: A lot of the friends that frequented the place were friends of mine for quite a few years before and I'd always hoped to see them there whatever the case was.  Some were acquaintances that I'd met there before and just general.  I'm a friendly person.

MR BERGER: You say that your circle was about five or six people wide at any given point?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: When you mentioned circle before I thought you meant when you went in and sat down with people or there would be five, six people standing that you talk to as friends, that generally was the case.

MR BERGER: No, I'm talking about ...(intervention)

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: Close associate friends?

MR BERGER: No, if you had to extract all the people that you were friendly with, who would go to the Why Not bar on any particular weekend, how many people would form part of that group?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: I'm not sure I understand your question, Sir?

MR BERGER: Say you went to the bar on a Saturday night and there were three people that you knew and then you went there the next Saturday night and there were another two people and you went there a week later and there were three other people, if we extracted all of those people we might find that in total there were six people, you know, in the total group of people whom you knew, what figure would you put it at?

JONATHAN JOSEPH JEFFERS: There were some nights that I went there that I knew many people.