Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-28

MR VISSER: Mr Erasmus, you were not originally implicated in the matter of Mr White Mohape, page 23 of Bundle A.  Pardon me, there is one important aspect which I wish to touch on before you continue. We know that Mr Venter was murdered on the 2nd or was it the 3rd, I think the 2nd of February 1999.  Will you accept that?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Yes Mr Chair.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo placed you in Bloemfontein the week of the murder, the last week of January here in Bloemfontein where you supposedly gave him instructions in this regard.  What is your reaction to this, where were you at this stage?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair I was on holiday leave at that stage, it was the last stage of my leave which I spent two weeks at Hartenbos.

MR VISSER: Just to make it clear, did you take the same period of leave every year?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair there was a policy at the office in this regard and I usually took my leave in February but this particular year I took my leave earlier because I had returned from detached service of more than two years.

MR VISSER: And it was also a fact that we have submitted to the Committee exhibits which confirmed that from 9 January 1989 until 10 February 1989, you were on leave.
	Mr Chairman I have the exhibit in front of me but unfortunately we neglected to mark it.  I believe it was P 26 Mr Chairman but it is the one that says. "Senior Superintendent na daar nie nader verklaar onder eed", and then there is an application for leave form attached to it.

JUDGE WILSON: P26.2.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: If we can then continue Mr Erasmus - well let me ask you this - is there anything with regard to the Venter murder which is important for you to mention here or can we close that issue?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair I heard with shock of the murder of Mr Venter and when I heard that Mr Ngo had been arrested because of the murder I was very disappointed.

MR VISSER: Mr White Mohape, he had testified that you had often arrested him, is that true?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chair, Mr White Mohape was arrested on a number of occasions and detained, that is correct.

MR VISSER: He referred here to one occasion and I'm not sure whether we will be told later at which incident of the applicants this belongs, but were you on this occasion in a room where others were present, you told him to look out the window and that a black bag then was pulled over his head and then he was then assaulted with broomsticks.  Do you know anything about such an incident?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I don't know about such an incident Chair.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo says that you, that is you and let me just gain certainty, it's page 23 Mr Chair, he says you and Shaw were concerned that Mr White Mohape was repeatedly taken to court and that he was found not guilty every time and this gave rise with you and Shaw, was there anything like that?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Chair I know that Mr Mohape on one occasion appeared in court.  I don't know of any other occasion where he appeared in court and was found not guilty.

MR VISSER: Which appearance are you referring to?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That was the alleged attack on Mr Ngo.

MR VISSER: This had nothing to do with the Security Branch?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: No Mr Chair.

MR VISSER: It was a crime that he was accused of there?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct and the detectives indeed investigated this.

MR VISSER: And Mr Ngo said that Mr White Mohape in 1986 was in detention and that you and/or Shaw then gave instructions that he should not be released during the mornings from the police cells but in the afternoons.  Is there any truth in this?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman according to me, according to what I can remember.

MR VISSER: Yes you can say that, I just want to warn you that I'm going to ask you not to provide any information which you have read in the police dockets which is relevant here regarding this specific incident to disclose this to the Committee before the Committee has not decided what the status of that document is.  In other words you say according to what can recollect, it was 1984 and not 1986.

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: That is correct.  I was not in charge of this detention and I could not make any arrangements, I did not make any arrangements that he had to be released a certain time.

MR VISSER: Did Mr Ngo testify that Mr Tswantse and Mamome apparently received instructions to go to the police station and to wait for White Mohape until he'd been released; then to follow him and at a convenient time to kidnap him and to assault him?   Do you know of anything of this matter?

JACOBUS PETRUS PAULUS ERASMUS: I don't know.

MR VISSER: And Mr Ngo says that he and Mr Motsamai and Mr Nikihana later joined them...(intervention)

ADV MEMANI: I have on a previous occasion point out that this statement is not correct. Although in the application it was stated that Motsamai is present, when the attorney testified he said Motsamai was not present.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman then that's something that my learned friend has to put in cross-examination, surely.

JUDGE WILSON: That is so.

ADV MEMANI: No Mr Chairman it can't be because he is leading it as if it is evidence and it is not the evidence.  The evidence is that Mr Motsomai was not there.

MR VISSER: With due respect Mr Chairman, Mr Ngo has given so many versions of so many issues, it cannot be expected from the witness or from me to lead him on all the conflicts in his evidence.  I'm putting to the witness the statement as it is contained in his application as a platform.  It is then for my learned friend to choose whichever version he wants to choose of his client and to put that to the witness.

JUDGE WILSON: Where is this in the application?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman if you look at page 24, at the foot of that page, you will see that he says that during the process of delay Lt Shaw instructed WO Tuametsi and Sgt Mamome to go to Hilton Police Station so that they can follow White after his release.  When they get him in the right spot, White Mohape should be kidnapped and assaulted and when White was released - that was on his way back home - he  was then kidnapped by WO Sobetsi Mamome next to Bloemfontein Prison and they controlled - what is said in his evidence Mr Chairman is they called them over the radio...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: So you are quoting from his evidence?

MR VISSER: No from his application, Motsamai, Nchiala and me, that's what I'm putting to this witness now Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: But Mr Chairman as far as I'm concerned, the application has got the status of a status made prior to the beginning of the trial, and if a witness were to make a statement before the beginning of a trial and mention someone in that statement and comes to the court and says no, I mentioned this person but I made a mistake, you are not entitled then to put it that this witness is saying that this, okay what he statement, okay that you are not entitled to do.

JUDGE WILSON: He's entitled to say that the applicant in his application which was on oath, wasn't it, said the following.  You can then correct it in cross-examination by saying, yes but when he came to give evidence he said this.

ADV MEMANI: But Mr Chairman he...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: The fact that he gives evidence does not erase everything he has said before Mr Memani.

ADV MEMANI: But the manner in which Visser is putting it Mr Chairman, he's putting it as if it was the evidence that was led here, he's not saying...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: We all know he's just quoting from page 24.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.  If only that could be kept in mind.

JUDGE WILSON: Perhaps you should.