Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MR MSHE: I can assure you we would not have consumed alcohol in that building, in that lecture hall.  It was actually a lecture hall with like in a school classroom, tables and chairs, with a blackboard in front where people were obviously lectured.  One could see that.  And if we consumed alcohol we would have done it in the house, and I think we lived in D house.  I am sure that can be checked and verified.

MR MSHE: But, Captain, what would stop you from consuming liquor in a lecture hall?

WITNESS:   I beg your pardon?

MR MSHE: What is there to stop you consuming liquor in a lecture hall?

WITNESS:   Alcohol?  Well, we were on Military Intelligence premises.  The previous night we were ordered not to come out underground.  Admiral Bruce Pitter was there, and Brigadier - or General van der Westhuizen of Intelligence, because that specific night there was a meeting on between Jonas Savimbi and the South African Government, and they flew him in and we were not allowed to get out.  And we were frequently visited by Military

MR MSHE: /Intelligence

MR MSHE: Intelligence officers, and I am sure they wouldn't have been happy whilst being on duty during the day drinking alcohol in the lecture hall of that base.

MR DE JAGER: But it's not quite clear that it was in a lecture hall.

MR DE JAGER: "During the course of that day I was again shackled to the cannon and questioned.  The men then adjourned and began consuming alcohol."

MR DE JAGER: ---   Well, if we adjourned, Mr Chairman, then he couldn't have seen that we've used alcohol.  He stayed underground permanently in the bunker, in the underground ... (intervention)

MR DE JAGER: Mr Coetzee, did you consume alcohol during that period or not?

WITNESS:   It is quite possible, yes, Mr Chairman.

MR MSHE: You have already responded to paragraph 39.  Paragraph 40?

WITNESS:   He was not - he did receive a clout or two from these people questioning him, Andy Taylor and Jerry Fourie, but I can assure you not vicious assaults because, as I say, because of the political uproar it caused, because of the predicament we were in as a result of the arrest of the askaris, they were for sure not going for a full out beating and further punishing on Mr Pillay.

MR MSHE: Thank you, Mr Coetzee.  Now, in your evidence you made mention of a doctor who administered the serum.  Who is this doctor?

WITNESS:   It was an army doctor brought in.  I am not sure whether it was on the first night of the 20th, or the following morning.  An army doctor in brown uniform.  He was never introduced to us.  He was taken into a small little room right behind - still in the

MR MSHE: /bunker

MR MSHE: bunker underground, but right behind the lecture hall, where he was made to lie down on a stretcher.  Not a couch.  I don't know what's the actual difference between it, but in any case.  And that could have at the latest been on the Saturday morning.  I see he mentions in paragraph 42,

MR MSHE: "Several days later I was again blindfolded and taken to another part of the building."

MR MSHE: It's absolutely not true.  It happened either on that Friday in the evening, or at the latest that Saturday morning, in that same building.  Ja, as I say, it was little room right behind the lecture hall.

MR MSHE: Now, this military doctor, from which military base was he?

WITNESS:   I can't really say, but I am sure Major Steyn, Kallie Steyn, will be able to give the exact particulars.  He was never introduced to us.  He came in with a drip, the fluid he had was in a drip.  They hanged it up on - I can't remember what it was, and then administered it into Mr Pillay's vein intravenous.

MR MSHE: Good.  Now, the administering of this serum, was it discussed by yourself and Taylor and others who were there before the doctor would come?

WITNESS:   No, it was discussed by Major Steyn and the two interrogators, Jerry Fourie and Andy Taylor.

MR MSHE: You did not have a part in that part of the discussion?

WITNESS:   Not at all.

MR MSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

MR MSHE: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MSHE

CHAIRPERSON: After the release of the askaris who had been arrested in Swaziland did they make a report to you?

WITNESS: 	/I beg

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Did they make a report to you?

WITNESS:   Yes, they did.

CHAIRPERSON: And can you remember what that report was?

WITNESS:   Rumours had it that they were on their way back to Manzini to rob a bank there the next day, and they were still in the same car with the same numberplates on it when the Swazi Police or someone spotted them in the street.

WILSON J: Sorry, did you say they told you they went back to rob a bank?

WITNESS:   That was the rumours amongst them.  I can't know who specifically said it, but it came out from amongst the rumours after they returned, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The fact that they were about to rob a bank in Swaziland, did that seem quite natural to you?

WITNESS:   Absolutely not.  It was an extreme risk if they did try and plan that, and I could have assured them they would have picked up a lot of trouble if they did that in broad daylight, and rob a bank in Swaziland.  So absolutely not normal with the normal procedures, Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: Mr Coetzee, you were fully aware of the circumstances surrounding the Swaziland border at that stage, 1980 round?

WITNESS:   Circumstances, Mr Chairman?  Can they ... (incomplete)

MR DE JAGER: At the border, Oshoek and the vicinity.  You actually were stationed at Oshoek and you often visited Swaziland, I presume.

WITNESS:   I knew the area very well, and Swaziland too, that's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: Ja.  And so you were the best equipped to operate in Swaziland, for instance?

WITNESS:   Yes, apart from the Ermelo Security Branch, which has also been there since

MR DE JAGER: /1976,

MR DE JAGER: 1976, Lieutenant Chris Dieklifs and his representative at Oshoek Border, Paul van Dyk, who had an office and a house at Oshoek, yes.

MR DE JAGER: And the askaris were under your command?

WITNESS:   They were under my command.

MR DE JAGER: They were not under the command of Dieklifs or anybody else?

WITNESS:   No, they were under my personal command, although it was an operation in conjunction with Eastern Transvaal Security Region, and more specific Ermelo Security Branch.  That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: Did you ever - did you identified targets?

WITNESS:   They have already pointed out a few targets, yes.  A Flat 7 and 9 it was called in Manzini.  They've identified the house of Joe Pillay.

MR DE JAGER: Ja, "they."  Who are "they"?

WITNESS:   Sorry, the askaris that were present there that I've mentioned, Jeff ... (intervention)

MR DE JAGER: On whose command did they do that?

WITNESS:   On my command, with the purpose to, after identifying enough targets we would then in one night try and hit as many of that targets as possible.

MR DE JAGER: And you planned that?

WITNESS:   On instruction from Brigadier Skoon, that's correct, yes.

MR DE JAGER: Because in your application you said, on page 19, paragraph 10 (iv),

MR DE JAGER: "Towards the end of 1980 and early 1981, I planned a mission that intended to identify various ANC targets in Swaziland, and to blow up and eliminate the inhabitants of such targets.  Members of Vlakplaas askaris were sent

MR DE JAGER: /"into

MR DE JAGER: "into Swaziland to do the necessary scouting."