Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR KUNY: If I understand your evidence correctly then, the first time that the assault would have been confirmed to you would have been when you actually saw the young persons?  I see Sister Benedict made a response to my question, I beg your pardon, Bernard.

UNKNOWN: ...[inaudible] said where because we specifically told you that it was in the Dobsonville community meeting where the children actually told us that they were assaulted.

MR KUNY: My question is, the first actual confirmation that you had had - that the youths had been assaulted as opposed to what you'd heard from other people, were when you actually saw the youths at Mrs Mandela's house, is that correct or not?

CRISIS COMMITTEE: I think it's one person which we can't just answer in terms of yes or no - let me explain.  We saw the marks - this is what we say in our reports, which suggested that they sustained injuries.  Of course to use it meant that there could be some truth in the allegation that they were assaulted but they gave an explanation as to where and how they sustained those injuries.
 Of course in the course of that discussion when we met Katiza separately, Katiza gave a different version as to how they sustained those injuries.   We couldn't say we got a firm confirmation.

MR KUNY: Let me put it on this basis, what you saw of the youths - what you saw when you saw the youths, was consistent with what had been told to you earlier by community members in the Dobsonville meeting, is that not correct?

CRISIS COMMITTEE: It was told to us later.

MR KUNY: I beg your pardon.  At any rate ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You have one minute.  Order, order please.

MR KUNY: Did you enquire about the whereabouts - did you enquire from Mrs Mandela about the whereabouts of Stompie?

MR NTSEBEZA: Mr Kuny, I would have thought that you would really canvass new issues, issues that have not been canvassed either sufficiently or at all by any of the people, either in the panel or by other of your colleagues or by anybody.  That was canvassed Doctor Boraine at length and I'm sure the record will show that.

MR KUNY: If I may just establish, what was her response to your enquiry - Stompie?

CRISIS COMMITTEE: We answered the question - I mean the question at one stage, I don't remember at which stage, it was said that Stompie had either - I did explain, had either left or disappeared - I wouldn't remember the exact words but I have said that already.

MR KUNY: Did you ask any questions as to ascertain when he had left, when he had last been seen?

CRISIS COMMITTEE: I don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Ask your last question.

MR KUNY: Did you not find it extremely suspicious and strange that the boys had given the explanation that they'd fallen out of a tree?  Apparently two young boys - both of who have been alleged to have been sexually assaulted, have fallen out of trees.

CRISIS COMMITTEE: In our report to Mr Tambo, we actually did say that we found it strange and we actually used a word - formulation: "Improbable coincidence", I  don't know if you find it legally acceptable.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.  Is there any other?

MR KUNY: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes?

MR KADES: Mr Chairperson, on behalf of the Asvat family - Norman Kades.
 May I take you to paragraph 25 of your submission and can we look at the sequence in paragraphs 25 and 26.  On the 13th of January of 1989, you visited the residence of Mrs Mandela to assess the situation and you say that you had discussions with the Mandela family.  Can you tell us who were present at those discussions?  Was it Mrs Mandela and her two daughters?

CRISIS COMMITTEE: Certainly Mrs Mandela was there, Zinzi Mandela was there, I think Xoliswa Falati was there.

MR KADES: So may I then ask with regard to the following paragraph, the Committee was informed that some of them were taken to Doctor Abu-Baker Asvat for treatment, who was it that informed the Committee that they had been taken to Abu-Baker Asvat?  Was it one of them that made the statement and they all concurred?

CRISIS COMMITTEE: I think this question helps me to remember that Xoliswa was definitely there because Xoliswa and Mrs Mandela are the ones who particularly said that the children were - the young people were taken to Doctor Asvat for treatment.

MR KADES: And did you understand that to mean that all those who had come from the Manse had been taken to Doctor Asvat for treatment?

CRISIS COMMITTEE: Well, that was out understanding at the time.

MR KADES: All the children?  And ...[intervention]

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Kades, I'm a little confused because it says: "was then informed that some of them", so ...[inaudible]

CRISIS COMMITTEE: ...[indistinct]

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, also I think in my earlier retort by the Committee, they said it was Mandela who said - had taken Katiza to the doctor and not the other way round.

MR KADES: I assume this is my opportunity to ask the questions Mr Chairperson.

CRISIS COMMITTEE: I think - I mean that's a long time ago, but my recollection is that it was said in general terms because it was a part of the argument about the young people being sexually assaulted - I mean abused, and therefore the doctor - they even went to a doctor so we then went to the doctor to talk to the doctor.

MR KADES: One of the problems facing the Asvat family - with regard to the terrible event that overtook their family, is their inability to have determined information which - what information was in fact factual and truthful and what information was just rumours circulating in the community.
 The purpose of these questions Reverend Chikane, is an endeavour to ascertain - on what is the last occasion probably that these questions can be asked, as to circumstances - suspicious circumstances or peculiar circumstances, regarding the death of Doctor Asvat.

FRANK CHIKANE: ...[inaudible] Annexure B, page 3.

MR KADES: Yes, I have that.

FRANK CHIKANE: Annexure B, page 3, where we dealt with that matter in 1992 when our memories would have been better than now, and we say there
"We were told by Mrs Winnie Mandela, Xoliswa Falati and others that while at the Methodist the young men were abused sexually etc., and we were further told that Doctor Asvat saw the young men and had medical evidence to collaborate these claims - corroborate these claims"
As a result of this three of the members who were there, went to see the doctor.

MR KADES: When you spoke to the children themselves or the youngsters themselves, did they corroborate to you - did they confirm to you, that they had been seen by Doctor Asvat?

FRANK CHIKANE: I don't think that question was put to the children themselves because we weren't really sitting in a court case to cross-examine.  It was trying to find out what has happened and so we thought talking to that doctor might be the best way.

MR KADES: Yes.  And the explanation Reverend, that the boys had fallen from a tree - I think you've told us already, was an unacceptable explanation.  After the death of Doctor Asvat, did the Crisis Committee - which had already existed for a period of in excess of six months, did the Committee make any effort to investigate or to ascertain circumstances surrounding the death of Doctor Asvat because after all he was said to hold important information?

FRANK CHIKANE: Not that I remember.  When I returned back, that even had already happened and there was no investigation as far as I remember by members of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll give you one more minute.

MR KADES: Thank you Mr Chairman.
 May I just ask you one other question that interests me and that is, during your interviews with Mrs Mandela relating to the abduction or rescue of the boys on the 29th of December of 1988, did she ever tell you that she was in Brandfort on that day?

FRANK CHIKANE: No.