Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-08

REV XUNDU: Nongazi Lillian Mata, please stand up.

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: (Duly sworn in, states).

REV XUNDU: Thank you.  Sicelo Raymond "Silombo" Tile, please stand up.

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: I am Velisile Toyi.

REV XUNDU: Please stand up.

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: (Duly sworn in, states).

REV XUNDU: Thank you.  Mr Chairperson, they have been properly sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Reverend.  We will ask Mr Ntsiki Sandi to lead you with questions on behalf of the Commission.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Let us begin with Mrs Nongazi Lillian Mata.  You made a request, Mam, to appear in front of the Commission to talk about your child who was shot in 1985.  He was shot in Joza township.  What is her name.  Is she Hombakazi Matiwane.  Can you explain, Mam, without me interrupting you, telling us what happened.

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: Hombakazi left home and she went to church.  When she arrived there, there was nobody.  All the people went to the funeral.  She went to Joza and she passed, she went to her aunties house and then from there she went to the stadium looking for her cousin so that they can go together to the funeral.  She then got shot when they were coming from the funeral.  They were from the stadium.  I do not know what happened because I was not Joza at that time, but they were shot before reaching the graveyard.  It was on Sunday, this funeral was on Sunday.

ADV SANDI: Who shot Hombakazi, did you hear the person's name who shot your daughter, who shot Hombakazi?

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: I do not know who shot her because I was not there.

ADV SANDI: How old was Hombakazi at the time?

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: She was 15 years old.

ADV SANDI: Was she attending school?

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: In which standard was she?

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: She was doing standard three.

ADV SANDI: Was she a member of COSAS or any other student organisation?

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: Yes, she was a student at the time when these organisations were formed.

ADV SANDI: Did you, was there any court case?

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Were you represented by an attorney?

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: I am not sure about his name, but it is de la Ham.

ADV SANDI: Is it Mr de La Haper?

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: What happened in court?

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: The case continued and we were told that the case was withdrawn.  We were then informed that we will receive letters, but up until today we did not receive any letter.

ADV SANDI: Your child was shot together with Buli in the coloured area?

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Did you meet with Mr de la Haper after this?

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: No, but he said that he will come back to us.  I did not have an interpreter, but the coloured woman told me that the case was withdrawn, but we have to wait for letters.

ADV SANDI: You did not receive these letters even today?

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Were you affected in your health because of this incident?

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: Can you please repeat.

ADV SANDI: Your health, was it affected by this incident?

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: Yes, I was affected.  My child's father suffered after his death, I also suffered.  I am not well, because I was well before this incident, but not, but now I am not well.

ADV SANDI: Do you receive any medical treatment?

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: Yes, I do receive a treatment from the clinic.

ADV SANDI: What is this treatment?

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: They say I am suffering from a high blood pressure.

ADV SANDI: By coming here in this Commission, Mrs Mata, do  you have a request?

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: What kind of request, Sir?

ADV SANDI: Do you have anything to say to this Commission, do you have any expectations?

MS MAYA: What kind of expectations?

ADV SANDI: In your statement when you were asked this question you responded by saying you want the funeral expenses to be covered.  Do you remember that?

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: Yes, if that is possible.

ADV SANDI: You also want a pension fund?

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: You also requested a community reparation.  Do you remember this?

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: Can you please repeat.

ADV SANDI: You made a request when you were giving your statement, a request that you would like the children who were injured in this way, in the way which Hombakazi got injured, you want their names to be recorded.  Do you remember that?

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Do you have anything else to add to your requests?

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: No, I have nothing to add.

ADV SANDI: Is that all, Mrs Mata?

NONGAZI LILLIAN MATA: Yes, that is all.  I have nothing to add.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mrs Mata.  Let us now go to Mr Toyi.  Mr Toyi, you were not shot on that day, but people like Hombakazi died as a result of this they cannot come here today to tell us what happened.  Can you please tell us, briefly, what happened on this day, Mr Toyi.

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: Thank you Mr Sandi and the panel.  On the fourth of April 1985 we attended a funeral, Tamsane Stevens funeral, this was held in JD Lebu stadium.  When we left the stadium on our way to the graveyard, when we were about to  reach Joza township we found four policemen, one of them is Diliza, who is Mrs Nana.  Mrs Nana was one of the councillors.

ADV SANDI: You were passing Mrs Nana's house.

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: When we were passing this house I was holding my friend's hand.  The police shot us, at us, we ran away.  When I was about to reach a corner I was shot in my back and I fell down, but I managed to go to one yard, but Dunjwa came in.  I was lying down at the time, he was shooting at us.  I managed to go through the door.  Diliza came with a gun.  He broke the window with the back of the rifle.  I told him to break all the windows.  He insulted me and he put a gun in my neck.  I stopped talking.  After a while a casspir came, after a Casspir and then an ambulance came.  I was taken to the hospital.
 When I arrived there in the hospital there was one small room.  There was a coloured guy sleeping there.  He was dead at the time and one young lady and one police, white policeman.  I was taken to the ward.  This guy, white guy, took out hand-cuffs and hand-cuffed me.  The nurses asked him why are you hand-cuff, why do you hand-cuff him, because he cannot run away and he said that it was the Law, He was supposed to hand-cuff me.  One coloured man came to guard me.  He would change the hand-cuffs, he would hand-cuff me, my one hand to the, with the bed.  I stayed for two weeks in the hospital.  In the third week I was taken to the charge office, but when I was discharged there was a lawyer hired, Mr B Sandi.  
 On Monday I was released on bail.  I went to visit Mr Sandi.  He then transferred me to one lady to give out a statement to her.  This lady told me to consult a doctor in order to get a paper from the doctor, because we were trying to claim.  We then managed to get a doctor.  The doctor gave me tablets and some medicine.  We then went back to Mr Sandi with the paper from the doctor.  The case then continued.  They would postpone the case now and then.  If I am not mistaken it was in September, but I do not remember the date when the case, when we heard that the case was withdrawn.

ADV SANDI: This case, were you accused of anything?

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: What were you accused of?

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: They said that we stoned Diliza's house.

ADV SANDI: What then happened to the case?

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: They told us that we, they will call us again.  I waited and waited and I waited for my lawyer to call me.

ADV SANDI: How were you injured?

VELISILE LOPY TOYI: I was injured very badly especially in my legs.  As I result I have pellets embedded in my body.  I would not like to mention the state of my health because the bullets are all over my body, even in my private parts.