Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-09-14

MR NKOSI: Mr Chairman, that is correct.  However, as I mentioned in chambers, there is a supplementary statement that has been made.  Mr Black did consult with the applicant on the original statement.  However, on the supplementary statement he has not consulted.  I'll further mention that the supplementary statement, there is not much that differs very much with the original statement.  So whatever time he might need to consult with him, it shouldn't be very much big time.

UNKNOWN: What supplementary statement are you referring to?  Do we have a copy thereof?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the statement that appears on pages seventeen (17) through to twenty (20)?

UNKNOWN: To twenty (20).

MR NKOSI: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Let me understand you properly, Mr Nkosi.  Are you saying you are not in a position to proceed, and that you would prefer that we wait for Mr Black?

MR NKOSI: Mr Chairman, on preferences I would prefer that we wait for Mr Black.  However, given the time and the fact that he is still on the road, I am in a position to proceed with this matter until he arrives.  Probably when he arrives we would adjourn and he would consult with us.  The main thing that we might have to do before his arrival may be the background of which he is aware.

MR MOLOI: Mr Nkosi, if I may find out.  You say the supplementary statement he hasn't consulted on yet.  When last did Mr Black consult with the applicant?

MR NKOSI: Mr Chairman, although I wouldn't remember correctly the dates, but it was during the last sitting of the Commission at Ermelo.  That's when he consulted together with myself, with applicant and that's when applicant raised some other issues which resulted in us making further investigations and what he said, and that resulted in us making the supplementary statement which was finished and sent to the Committee about Thursday last week.  So, he hasn't consulted with him over this statement.

MR MOLOI: Because I see there is a date to the supplementary statement, the typed version and the longhand version, that it was signed on the twenty ninth (29th) of August 1998.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkosi, we've now been speaking for just short of ten (10) minutes.  So, the forty (40) minutes has whittled down to less than forty (40) minutes now.  It would probably, unsatisfactory as it is, be best then to wait for Mr Black's arrival, rather than proceed in a haphazard fashion with you starting, Mr Black coming in then when he takes over he might have to cover ground that you've already covered.  That sort of thing.  Perhaps the best, and I don't know if it's possible, is if we could take an adjournment now and utilise this time as the lunch break and then go right through with this matter instead of starting and then adjourning for lunch and proceeding.

MR NKOSI: That would be acceptable, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Is that logistically possible, Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, that can be arranged.  I don't foresee any difficulties.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Well, then we'll take an adjournment now and wait for the applicant's legal representative whose arrival we hope will be in the very near future.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, are you in a position to proceed with this matter?

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, I must apologise for the delay, and without having to go into any details about it, I was prepared for tomorrow.  I've spoken to Mr Sambo, the applicant.  My attorney, instructing attorney, has given me additional documentation today which I didn't have prior to consulting with Mr Sambo, and in my respectful submission, justice would best be served if we do have a postponement.  I've discussed the matter thoroughly with Mr Sambo and with his wife, and I don't think Mr Sambo is embarrassed in any sense of the word if I mention it.  He is not literate in the sense and to go through the additional documentation is going to take time.  I've attempted to come to some agreement about a postponement, but I understand that there may well be a problem in my application for a postponement.  But I've been placed in a very difficult position, let's put it that way.  And I'd respectfully request a postponement.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, if my learned friend is saying he's seeking for a postponement because of the additional documents that were given to him today, that consists of two pages.  If that is the reason for seeking for a postponement then I must hasten to oppose such an application.  Mr Chairman, and members of the Committee, the applicant was represented in July in the same application by the same advocate who knew the matter very well and when the matter was postponed by the then Committee, it was indicated to my learned friend the advocate here present that certain things are to be put right.  It was some time in July.  Now, I cannot understand, Mr Chairman, I'm not saying he should be able to do the matter today, but the bulk of the matter is known by my learned friend.  He prepared the documents.  He represented him in the month of July and he has consulted with the client many a times before this very month in July.  Now, for him to need a postponement only to read two pages, that are nothing new but it's just an amendment to the original affidavit, I've gone through that affidavit.  It does not change the original in any material respect.  He's just amending and saying, "I'm putting right what I've said in the other affidavit".  Mr Chairman, I must put on record my utmost dissatisfaction.  I know it is the duty of the Committee to do that, but the way in which my learned friend has carried himself in this matter is really, if I'm not blamed for being defamatory, very unethical.  To keep the Committee waiting for the whole day and the people and everybody here only to seek at the last moment a postponement.  Mr Chairman, when we left the chambers, the idea was for them to look into the question of calling witnesses, whether they will call them or not to discuss with the client.  They did that and they came back to me and I said, "Look, if you've got that witness to call, Mr Sibiya, I have no objection.  You can hand up his affidavit and dispense with him.  I will not object.  I won't even ask a question pertaining to Mr Sibiya's affidavit".  My learned friend and his attorney agreed and they said they are going to talk to the client, and when they come back now it is no more the question of witnesses, it is a question of further information.  Mr Chairman, I'm dissatisfied by this changing or moving around of poles at the expense of the taxpayer's money.  That is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black?