Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

NOMAZOTSHWA BALANI: Ah good, so can I stand up and go?

JUDGE WILSON: Can she stand up and go?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes it's amazing that none of them have any questions to ask you.  Thank you very much. (Laughter and clapping.
WITNESS EXCUSED
MR ?: Chairperson I have no further witnesses to call in this regard, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairperson and members of the Committee,
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I'm still sitting in that predicament of facing the witnesses. The policeman who was assisting me, Capt. Fleming has just sent me a note that he cannot make any head out of what we are trying to do save that we drive now to Klerksdorp and trace those people ourselves. In that regard I'm saying that me first thing tomorrow morning.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mpshe would they not contribute anything on the merits?  Do you foresee that they could contribute anything on the merits of this case or would they be called as victims and couldn't they be referred for further investigation to the other committees?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairperson and members of the Committee, some of them will just be called as victims but Charles Mhlambiso on whom attempted murder was made may contribute something different to this Committee.  Even the woman who was in the house when the deceased was apprehended.

UNKNOWN: You would be unable Mr Mpshe to tell us until you have consulted with them?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is why ...(indistinct) that he's waiting for me to go to Klerksdorp.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Very well, that brings to a close this Committee's sitting for the day, we will resume at 09H30 tomorrow morning.  Thank you.
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TAPE 2B DAY THREE - 11.09.96

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman today is the 11th of September 1996.  Still sitting in Ikageng Township.  Mr Chairman the Chair will recall yesterday I intended calling a witness in respect of applicants whose evidence has already been led, that is Likikhlane, Lebona as well as Busakwe.  Mr Chairman I have the witness in the witness stand who is going to be testifying in SeSotho.  Her full name is Ellen Dhlamini.

ELLEN DHLAMINI: (sworn states)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mpshe could you kindly arrange, we can't see the witness she is in a straight line with the other Committee members.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.  Mrs Dhlamini the deceased Zinzile was your child?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: At the time of his death how old was he?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: He was 16 years old.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: According to your knowledge was your child involved in politics?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: He was a member of the ANC.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Are you telling us he was a member of the ANC?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How do you know that he was a member of the ANC?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: I used to see him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Doing what?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: He was together with the ANC people.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Which ANC members do you know that you have seen
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in the company of your son?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: Many of them Sir, many.  There were really many.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I am going to read out names and you must tell me which names can you identify.  Do you know the person called Likikhlane?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Have you seen your son in the company of this person?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The other surname is Lebona.

ELLEN DHLAMINI: No.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The other one is Busakwe?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: Not.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: There was evidence that there was a group called Kofifi(?) in your township.

ELLEN DHLAMINI: I do not know, I don't have evidence with regard to that story.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: According to your knowledge did Zinzile have any relationship with the police?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: No, not as far as I knew.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was he staying with you?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: Yes he was.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you staying in one house?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You were not here when they were giving their testimony how did your son die, you were not here.

ELLEN DHLAMINI: Yes I was not here.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But this morning when I was talking to you, you understood how he died?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: Yes I did.
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: We really sympathise with you for the loss of your son but then we want to know how do you feel now?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: I am not happy at all.  If they were telling the truth, you know the reasons why they killed him, up to now I don't know the reasons that led to his killing.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know the so-called Reconciliation, to reconcile, a reconciliation between the people?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: Yes I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When we talk of reconciliation between people what do you understand by that?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: We talk about forgiveness among the people.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: These people who killed your son Likikhlane, Lebona and Busakwe, they have come before this Committee to seek amnesty, to seek reconciliation, we want to know your feeling about this application.

ELLEN DHLAMINI: I understand but they are not telling the truth.  You forgive a person when the person tells you the truth, and then you will understand that they have made that act by mistake, but this was not a mistake.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When you say you forgive a person only when the person has told the truth are you telling us that they didn't tell the Committee the truth?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: No it is not the truth they told the Committee.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is there anything that you can tell us to indicate what the truth is?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: I disagree with everything they said.  It's not true what they said.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You say it's not true when they said they were taking him to the police camp?
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ELLEN DHLAMINI: They assaulted him.  They didn't take him to the police station.  I found him lying on the ground.  He was not taken to the police station at all.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I told you this morning and I said to you, I said to you they've indicated that they killed him on their way to the police station.

ELLEN DHLAMINI: Yes I heard you saying that.  I really heard you saying that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You said he was lying far from the police station?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: Yes it was very far from the police station.  It was in the squatter camp area, no police station at all.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When you arrived at the place of the accident was he already dead?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: Yes he was already dead.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What did you see when you arrived?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: There were stones, there were sticks, there were iron bars.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What else?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: Those sticks and the iron bars and the stones that were scattered around.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were there no people?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: Yes people were there, just onlookers.  When we arrived there he was already covered with a blanket.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: There is another committee in this Commission, the Committee for Reparation where it is necessary.  Is there anything you'd like to be assisted with, maybe?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What kind of assistance?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: I would like to put a tombstone for him.
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The last thing that I would like to say in your pain if it happens that you meet the people who killed your son and if they try to talk to you will you be in a position to speak with them?

ELLEN DHLAMINI: Yes.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

JUDGE WILSON: Has any of these people been to see you up to now to give you any explanation or extend sympathy to you?

INTERPRETER: The witness doesn't have the earphones on.

CHAIRPERSON: Enquire from her whether she is comfortable please.

<UNKNOWN>: Will you be in a position to carry on or should we stop for a few minutes?
WITNESS UPSET

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION