Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-03-30

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Bizos, I have lost your question, did you put it to him that they accounted for all the ...

GEORGE BIZOS: No, did not.

ADV DE JAGER: They did not?

GEORGE BIZOS: Their versions do not account for all.  Let's take an example.  There was a cut lip.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: My explanation is that it could possibly be as a result of a blow and his top lip was swollen.

GEORGE BIZOS: And bleeding?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I wouldn't say that it was bleeding, it was just swollen.  It was slightly bloody, but it wasn't bleeding.
	It could also have been as a result of the fall.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why don't you also say that it could also have been as a result of a punch landed?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Well, that is also possible.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why are you so shy to say it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I am not.  It is difficult to say because I didn't observe it.  I am speculating, you are asking me to speculate Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: I am going to put to you that neither the injury above the eye, nor on the lip, came about as a result of the wall, but rather as  a result of violent punches thrown at Mr Biko which you and your colleagues have decided on the Saturday and persist in denying?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I didn't hit Mr Biko with a fist, and there were even on medical grounds, there were differences as far as that was concerned.  I am only a  layman, so my only inference is that it could possibly have happened when he knocked his head against the wall.

GEORGE BIZOS: In relation to Mr Jones, is your version that you were the only one who assaulted him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I assaulted him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Alone?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I was alone.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you know of no other assault by your colleagues?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is true.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you heard Mr Jones telling a completely different version?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you deny that, I don't intend putting it, you were present when he gave the evidence?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: You know what it was, you don't want to explain any of the evidence that he gave then, and which he is going to repeat before this Committee?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I don't know.  All I am saying is that I assaulted him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

GEORGE BIZOS: .

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, may I for personal reasons, ask for a five minute adjournment please?  Thank you Mr Chairman.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: (still under oath)

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, there are just one or two aspects I would like to clarify.
	Mr Niewoudt, perhaps if you could just refresh my memory, during the scuffle, how many times according to your recollection, was Mr Biko thrown against the wall, or in terms of the momentum, did he make contact with the wall?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Two occasions.

MS PATEL: The first occasion would have been when Mr Beneke moved in, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is so.

MS PATEL: Right, could you perhaps explain or clarify the impact that that would have made, the first one, yes, when Mr Beneke knocked him against the wall?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: With his weight, considering his weight and Mr Beneke's weight, it was quite hard.

MS PATEL: This Committee and I included have not had the advantage of seeing Mr Beneke, could you perhaps just describe Mr Beneke to us?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: He is approximately my length, 6"1vt, he is approximately 80 kg in weight, he is reasonably well built.

MS PATEL: And according to your recollection at the time, did Mr Beneke come charging in when he made impact with Mr Biko?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct, yes.

MS PATEL: What injuries do you think Mr Biko would have sustained at that point?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I believe he could have injured his back, and probably his head from behind, it is possible.

MS PATEL: So, he wouldn't have knocked the front of his head at that stage?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.

MS PATEL: All right, fine let's leave that.  Then just to move on to the last aspect that I want clarity on.  You say that after the scuffle had ended, Mr Siebert gave instructions that Mr Biko then be handcuffed and his legs also be cuffed, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

MS PATEL: He was still laying on the floor at that time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: He was leaning against the wall, half on the floor, half against the wall.

MS PATEL: Yes, all right, but he wasn't standing at the time.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.

MS PATEL: And if I remember your evidence correctly yesterday you say that he was there for about five to ten minutes is that correct, before he was then chained to the gate?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, that is approximately.

MS PATEL: Okay.  The condition of Mr Biko when he was half sitting on the floor, you said he was disorientated?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay, your other colleagues have used the word his speech was slurred at that time, can you confirm that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, I also said that he spoke with a dragging tongue, he dragged his tongue, with a slur.

MS PATEL: At the stage though when he was on the floor, did he speak to you, did he speak to anyone?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I don't have independent recollection if he spoke to anyone.

MS PATEL: Okay.  You then state further that Mr Siebert then questioned him once he was tied to the gate, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

MS PATEL: Would Mr Biko have recovered completely by this stage bearing in mind it was just ten minutes, it was quite a heavy impact against his head?  He also needed assistance to the gate before he was cuffed?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is so, it is difficult as a layman for me to say whether he was fully conscious or if he recovered sufficiently, I don't know.

MS PATEL: All right, if I could then just take you to paragraph 21 of your application.  It is on page 42 of the bundle Mr Chairperson.
	You say here at this stage Captain Siebert once again attempted putting questions to Biko without success.  Biko simply did not want to answer any questions.  What do you mean by he refused?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: He did not answer him.

MS PATEL: So it is not a question of having refused, it could also possibly be that he wasn't in a position to respond to him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is so.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions to this witness.

ADV BOOYENS: Just one aspect, my learned colleague Mr Bizos asked you with reference to Mr Jones' evidence previously stated, that according to his testimony that at more instances, you assaulted him.  What is your comment about this?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: If it is so, then I would have applied as such and I would have said so, but it didn't happen.

ADV BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

ADV BOOYENS: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Niewoudt, tell me how long from the time when Mr Biko was injured, was he detained in Port Elizabeth before he was transferred to Pretoria?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It was the 6th Mr Chairperson, the 7th, the 8th, the evening of the 8th, three days he was at the offices at Sanlam Building.

CHAIRPERSON: So it is approximately three days?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, three days, and then he was removed to North End prison, that is on the evening of the 8th, so it was the 9th, the 10th and the 11th, the Sunday, six days.

CHAIRPERSON: How long was he in detention before he was injured?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That was approximately from the 17th to the 6th before he was interrogated, three weeks, 21 days approximately.

CHAIRPERSON: Before anyone spoke to him, he had been in detention for 21 days?