Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-22

MR MOHAPE: I cannot answer that, that is what they're saying but to my knowledge I know many a times I have been detained from home on the day of my release, they will pick me, wherever I've been detained at Hilton Police Station, I've been detained at Grootvlei, same Bayswater, there are so many including Park Road, so many police stations, that when upon my release they will come and fetch me.

MR VISSER: Yes, but I'm suggesting to you now that it wouldn't be a right that you have that if it happened it would have been a favour more than a right?

MR MOHAPE: I don't know.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR MOHAPE: It was up to them.

MR VISSER: Right

MR MOHAPE: You walk out of the Bayswater Police Station, now what do you do, do you expect somebody to be there to pick you up?

MR MOHAPE: I think I answered you yesterday.

MR VISSER: Well just answer me again then.

MR MOHAPE: I said to you, when they came, because at that time when they told me I must go home, there was nobody who was saying "I'm taking you home", there was a police van in the police station that was going out and they never even bothered to say we must give you a lift or whatever.  But I had to take it upon myself that I'm walking and when I walked the bakkie stopped and they said then they are coming to fetch me.

MR VISSER: Alright, well that is the answer to the question.  In other words you walked out of the police station and you started walking in the direction of your home?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Would that have been in Milner Street toward the city centre or the other direction?

MR MOHAPE: I don't know which Milner Street is.

MR VISSER: Milner Street is the road which leads from past Bayswater from Bloemfontein North into Bloemfontein.  That's Milner Road - M-i-l-n-e-r.

MR MOHAPE: Probably that's it.

MR VISSER: Yes, now which direction did you walk?

MR MOHAPE: I was walking from the police station going down towards the city.

MR VISSER: Towards the city?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: How far had you moved before the bakkie?

MR MOHAPE: It was just in the vicinity outside the police station.

MR VISSER: Yes.  You would walk out and you would turn left	into - I don't know what the road is, and then you would turn left again in Milner Road and you'd go down towards the city centre, isn't that right?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Were you hitchhiking?

MR MOHAPE: No.

MR VISSER: No?  Alright.  Now let's come to this scene of the assault.  Was there a moon?

MR MOHAPE: Hey, man.  Don't ask me that.

MR VISSER: Was it sufficiently light?  So that you can ...[intervention]

MR MOHAPE: No.  In the situation where you are beaten, people are all over you, you cannot see if there is a moon, it's light or it's dark or whatever because I'm confused at that time.  I'm beaten by people that I never expected they could do that at that time.
	Why should I then stand and check if the weather is raining or it's not raining,  or it's moon or it's sun when it's in actual fact dark at that time.  It is clear that I, even perhaps there could have been a moon at one point or another, I may not ascertain that.

MR VISSER: Were there any electric lighting in that area?

MR MOHAPE: Mr Visser, if you want to make an inspection in loco, I think you should do that because I think that will answer some of your questions because the road that I'm talking about - the people who knows this dark road towards Grootvlei. they know there are no street lights in that side.

MR VISSER: Thank you, so that's the answer.  But you were able to see that it was two further people who joined the original two who picked you up and who participated in your assault?

MR MOHAPE: You know why?  Because they came to beat me up also, because they joined those ones to beat me up and it is clear when you're beaten by people who are surrounding you, you see these four figures standing before you, kicking you left and right.  You can ascertain that these are four people who are doing that.

MR VISSER: So it was light enough to ascertain that it was four people, for example, not five?

MR MOHAPE: No man, I think I understand what I'm talking about.

MR VISSER: Now what is the answer to my question?

MR MOHAPE: It is clear, there were four people.  In any situation where you can see figures of people, you cannot say when you are seeing there are four and then you come and see there are five because I never said I think there were five.  I told you that there were four.

MR VISSER: And you said so and you were that certain because there was sufficient light, from whatever source, for you to see that?

MR MOHAPE: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, Mr Visser, I'm going to go back to the question of ninety 99%, 100% certain of the details.  Mr Mohape, it could - I won't be able to recall details of Ngo's evidence around that, it could be that like you said, he said that you assaulted with hammers, it could be that he said, like you said too, that you were transported in a bakkie, that you were kidnapped and the like but did you hear him tell us as to who assaulted you?

MR MOHAPE: Yes, I heard he told names of people who assaulted me.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Which names do you recall he mentioned?

MR MOHAPE: He mentioned Tsoametsi, he mentioned himself, I can't remember the third person that he mentioned.  At one point I think he mentioned Motsamai and then I understand later that was corrected to say he thought Motsamai was there because everybody was in balaclavas, something of that sort, but he could not ascertain if it was really Motsamai.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The people that you have mentioned, the people that Mr Ngo mentioned, were they known to you at that stage?

MR MOHAPE: No they were not known to me.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Except Ngo himself?

MR MOHAPE: Except Ngo himself.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Are you able to tell us whether they were there or not?.   Let's leave Ngo aside for awhile.

MR MOHAPE: You know it is exactly what I've said.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You can't say whether they?

MR MOHAPE: Because they had balaclavas you know?  Because I cannot recall, you know, put the picture back into my memory.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: For whatever reason, you are not able to say whether in fact they were there or not?

MR MOHAPE: Correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What about Ngo, he was known to you at that time?  Do you agree with him that he was there, if he says he was there?  I personally don't remember.  I'm not very sure what his evidence was but let's assume that in his evidence he said that he was there will you agree with him that he was there?

MR MOHAPE: You see, this is exactly what I am saying, Judge, you know when a person comes to desks, you know  sitting and give information that he did something and is able to correlate that in terms of exactly what happened and I look at that and I see it is exactly the very same things that happened to me, I am bound to say but this person could have been there, he knows everything about what happened because I don't think he can just come with a story of something that never happened, that he never saw.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But that is something else, it could be that he got his story from other people you know but I mean if you know a person, you know a person.  You should be in a position to either say he was there or he was not there?   I'm not sure that's what he said he was there.

MR MOHAPE: No, I ...[intervention]

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I'm told that in fact Mr Ngo said he was there he took part.  Now considering that you knew him, surely you be able or shouldn't you be able to tell us whether what he saying is true or not true?

MR MOHAPE: It's exactly what I'm saying that you know what he's saying according to how he led evidence, it really tells me that he was there because he is able to explain details of their own operation.