Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mamasela, you are still under oath.

JOE MAMASELA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, before I proceed, I've been informed by Mr van der Merwe, he's given me the case number of the Supreme Court in which the document Exhibit T which I have referred to.  It is Supreme Court Number 3236/86, I'm told and the previous case number, I believe that there was also a previous application, was under case number 1247/85.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you may proceed.

MS HARTLE: Mr Chairman if I may, there are indeed three applications.  I don't have the case numbers handy right now but there were indeed three applications brought by the families for the loved ones to be produced.

CHAIRPERSON: Did each family bring it's own application?

MS HARTLE: No, the first application was brought by I believe, Mrs Hashe or her daughter and then there were two applications subsequently brought by the three parties who are mentioned on the papers before the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAMEY: Mr Mamasela, the interview that you had, that you had before the Independent Board of Inquiry, when was that?

JOE MAMASELA: I did not have the interview with the Board of Inquiry?

MR LAMEY: Well can you just assist me there then, what did you have with the board of inquiry?

JOE MAMASELA: We, I just accompanied Coetzee there and it was just a social discussions, not an interview.

MR LAMEY: Did I understand your evidence correctly before that there were - my question is, when was it?

JOE MAMASELA: It was on the 22nd of July 1994, 22 July 1994.

MR LAMEY: And you, did I understand your evidence correctly that you just assisted Dirk Coetzee?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, that is so.

MR LAMEY: And during that discussion he told certain lies, that is Dirk Coetzee?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, that is so.

MR LAMEY: You were present at that meeting.

JOE MAMASELA: I was there.

MR LAMEY: You confirmed the lies that Dirk Coetzee told?

JOE MAMASELA: I confirmed them yes.

MR LAMEY: Now, in this document which has been minuted, it was stated - before I ask that, what advantage did Coetzee want, what advantage did he want to gain by telling lies to the IBI?

CHAIRPERSON: He was targeting the position of being a Commissioner of Police?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And in the process wanted to get rid of ...[intervention]

JOE MAMASELA: Joe Nklankla.

CHAIRPERSON: Joe Nklankla because he saw him as a stumbling block.

MR LAMEY: Now in this document, it is minuted that Venter "beat", referring now  under the heading
"PEBCO 3"
		"Venter beat the three about the head with an iron bar"

JOE MAMASELA: I think we have dealt with that matter when we started here, that it was Dirk Coetzee's version which was incorrect, it was never said by me.  I think we've cleared that with Mr Booyens.

MR LAMEY: No, I know that you've said that Mr Mamasela.

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, I'm still saying it now.

MR LAMEY: Yes.  Let me just get an opportunity to complete my question.  It is Dirk Coetzee who said
"Venter beat the three about the head with an iron bar"

JOE MAMASELA: He was the one who was giving the version of the PEBCO 3, it was not me.

MR LAMEY: No, I'm asking you, did Coetzee say
"Venter beat the three about the head with an iron bar"

JOE MAMASELA: I'm saying Dirk Coetzee was giving the version of the PEBCO 3 in that meeting, not me.

MR LAMEY: No, I hear that you're saying that Mr Mamasela, but I'm asking you specifically, did he also say Venter beat the three about the head with an iron bar?

JOE MAMASELA: That is true.

MR LAMEY: And in the light of your further, of your previous evidence, that you confirmed the lies of Coetzee, then I take it that you have confirmed also this false fact.

JOE MAMASELA: That's a cheap perception you are painting here because I said I confirmed the lie about Joe Nklankla.  He ...[indistinct] me specifically to confirm the lie of Joe Nklankla, not of the PEBCO 3 so your perceptions are not only false but ridiculous.

MR LAMEY: Now what did you say when Coetzee said to this IBI
"Venter beat the three about the head with an iron bar"

JOE MAMASELA: I do not care what he said, Coetzee talked a lot of nonsense and I didn't care about that.

ADV DE JAGER: We're caring about what he said.

JOE MAMASELA: No, he ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: And I'd like you to answer the question.  It's a fair question and we would like to know what Coetzee told the Commission.

JOE MAMASELA: Mr Chairman with due respect, when the meeting ...[indistinct] is not a formal meetings, it's a shoe social meeting and anybody can say anything that he says.  I was not there to monitor what people say, I did not even take notes.  How can I give a definite answer on something that was informal?  I think the question is unfair to me.

MR LAMEY: Was this a deliberate lie by Coetzee?

JOE MAMASELA: Well, I wouldn't say "deliberate lie", perhaps what I've told him, I've told him about the PEBCO 3 incidents and whatever, he confused the issue.  I will say he made mistakes, I won't say it was a deliberate lie.

MR LAMEY: Okay, if it wasn't then a deliberate lie and it was an innocent mistake, why did you not just correct Dirk Coetzee there and inform the Committee that Mr Coetzee: "I think Mr Coetzee is just making here a little error, it was in fact Niewoudt"?

JOE MAMASELA: I think we are chasing a wild goose and we'll never catch it.

MR LAMEY: Will you answer the question ...[intervention]

JOE MAMASELA: I'm telling, ...[intervention]

MR LAMEY: Will you please answer the question Mr Mamasela.

JOE MAMASELA: Wait a minute, I'm coming to your question.  You take a "draai", I'll also take a "draai" answering you.

MR LAMEY: I'm asking you directly.

JOE MAMASELA: Right, yes, I'm answering you directly now you're asking me directly.  I say it was not a formal gathering, it was just an informal social gathering, so if a person says something of insignificance to me I wouldn't say: "No, no, no, you are lying, you are telling the truth", no I didn't bother to monitor what was Dirk saying.
	He was talking, I was talking with ...[indistinct] this pony hair guy and I was talking with other people.  My attention was distracted by other people, I didn't hear everything that Dirk Coetzee said there.  
	I was surprised myself when I saw the document that he said a lot of hallbaloos there.

MR LAMEY: It is clear from the context of this document that this IBI meeting, and I would like you to comment on this, was interested in certain incidents of atrocities such as the disappearance of two businessmen in Mamelodi, the role of murder of robbery units, Constable Brian Makalunga, the PEBCO 3, Goniwe, Shell House, Piet Retief incident and I can list many more.
	It is clear that the IBI was interested in information about these incidents.

JOE MAMASELA: In answering that question, let me take you back to what I said yesterday.  I said you are having only one version.  There are three documents that were written the same day.  Now you have only one and that's why you quote everything out of context.  If you had the other two maybe you would be talking sense.

MR LAMEY: What you're saying Mr Mamasela is that the name of Niewoudt hitting the victims in the PEBCO 3 incident with an iron bar, wasn't said by ...[indistinct]?

JOE MAMASELA: You didn't say Niewoudt, you said Venter.

MR LAMEY: Yes.  During that meeting ...[intervention]

JOE MAMASELA: You didn't say Niewoudt, you said Venter.

MR LAMEY: Yes.

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.  You - so correct yourself please.

MR LAMEY: No, no, I'm not correcting myself, I'm perfectly aware of what I'm saying.  During that meeting - will you please listen to the question Mr Mamasela ...[intervention]

JOE MAMASELA: I'm listening, I don't listen by seeing.