Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-14

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Keyes, Derek Keyes.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if you can tell him, ja.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Keyes, Derek Keyes, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And who succeeded him as Minister of Finance?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I don't know if this is a quiz now?

GEORGE BIZOS: Everything I ask is a question, but I'll help you.  It was Mr Liebenberg, the Managing Director of Nedbank.  Does it occur to you that you have a warped mind, Mr Verster, in drawing inferences about guilt and innocence?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Not at all, because we all know that those persons came from the private sector.  It was for a specific reason and we do know that Mr Omar was on lists back then of the Intelligence community.

GEORGE BIZOS: Lists on information supplied by gangster informers for gain.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That's not true.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well how do you know?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Because the gangster did not put his name on a list, it was only one of the channels which we used.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now let us turn to another aspect.  Did you not find it objectionable or dangerous to employ gangsters and pay them or promise to pay them R30 000 in order to commit a murder?  Did you not find it objectionable that the State which you say you represented in this regard, should make common cause with gangsters to assassinate people?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is and was general practice and the ANC Umkhonto did exactly the same.

GEORGE BIZOS: You know, they can answer for their conscience, Mr Verster, if what you say is correct.  Let's deal with you.  We're dealing with you as a witness today and not with Umkhonto people.  Did you not find that objectionable or amoral to support a State offering R30 000 to a gangster to kill a person who was practising law in the Cape?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Not in the least because it was a specific instruction to not be connected to the State and it was just as immoral when bombs exploded that were planted by the enemy of the past and the murders that they committed from Church Street right through, so in war situations, such things can happen.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, I'm not going to involve myself in an argument with you in relation to other matters, Sir, but I just want to correct, that it was R30 000 that was voted for but he only got ...

CHAIRPERSON: It was R18 000 or somewhere around there, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, there was a split somewhere along the line.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, I would just like to say on this that the method in which the money was paid out, whether individuals used the money properly or not, but the manner in which the money was made available was in terms of a financial plan which was approved on Treasurer level because the Auditor-General was part of it in the final drawing up of those plans.  They did not know how we would use it because covert financing was unique, it was just for us.

GEORGE BIZOS: What was your salary?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I cannot remember.

GEORGE BIZOS: Try.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: This was 11 years ago.  R60 000, R56 000 per year.

GEORGE BIZOS: What bonuses were you getting?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I did not receive any bonus.  In my instance I was a qualified Special Forces member and in our instances we qualified for parachute allowances and explosive allowances and because we were in the private sector ordered to get production from people, we called it production bonuses but in essence it was remuneration for qualifications.

GEORGE BIZOS: What was the product of the production for which bonuses were given, Sir?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: The execution of operations.

GEORGE BIZOS: Which was what?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: The disruption of the enemies of South Africa as we have discussed it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Which at times meant killing people and you called that product.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes, that is definitely so.  To kill the enemy was my work.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I didn't quite understand you Mr Verster, are you saying that your salary was the regular salary, your basic salary, of a Special Forces member of your rank at that time?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That was the basis, yes, that was the basis upon which my salary was determined.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you would get bonuses for successful operations?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, I determined it myself, I did not receive any bonuses except the allowances for which I had a qualification, but members who were in our service, if he was an aware member, we changed it as such and it was approved in financial plans and then we said because he cannot jump parachute now, he gets that same amount of money as production bonus.

CHAIRPERSON: And then would you get, I've seen from the papers some of the operatives drove around in fancy motor vehicles, that sort of thing.  Would you get a motor vehicle as part of your package?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, these were not fancy vehicles.  It was transport because ...

CHAIRPERSON: But I've read here about and I don't want to advertise, but BMW's.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: ;   These were second-hand vehicles that they could find within the budget.  We did not prescribe to a member what he should drive.

CHAIRPERSON: But there was that sort of thing as well, car allowance?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: There was an approved policy of what amount and on which level could be approved and if one looks at the State structure and then the log books were filled in day and night and in our instance, all the time we would tell a person that he may drive so many kilometres a day and the rest he has to cover himself

CHAIRPERSON: You personally, Mr Verster, I just want to - you were a member of the Security Force for a long while.  It was your career.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: As the Managing Director of the CCB, now when that happened, did you continue on your medical aid, for instance, did you get the housing subsidy that you got as a soldier, that sort of thing?  What happened there?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Chairperson, my commissioned rank was given to me by the President of the Republic, C R Swart and I had to play that down, so my rank was the level of Colonel and then I could and stopped my medical aid and then I received a contract from the State for the work that I performed and this all included independent medical aid and vehicle allowances and so forth.  I say once again, it was entailed in a plan.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: In order to cut it short, would you agree that you personally got more for your rank than the officers who remained in the SADF, even the Special Forces, that you got more?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I would not agree with that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Pity that you don't remember your salary, so that we could check that, Mr Verster.  Try and remember what your salary was and what your perks were, please.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: What do you expect of me, Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: To make an honest attempt to tell us what your salary was and what your perks were.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It is not important, it was 12 years ago.  You can determine it in the army's books.  I have no contact with them.  You can go and see what is a Brigadier's salary and what allowances he gets.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you for the advice.  I know how to get the information from the army.  I want the information from you, what you were getting.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I am not interested in the army anymore, I have no connections with them, so I have no idea.

GEORGE BIZOS: You're not prepared to tell us what your salary was and what ...

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I am prepared, if I knew, but I don't.

GEORGE BIZOS: You've forgotten what your perks were.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It was for explosives, parachuting and I think there were some or other allowances, I do not recall.