Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

MR STRYDOM: Do you have any reason why you would protect the police?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I cannot protect the police or I'll never say anything about the police.  If they were there I would say that they were there because what I'm saying toady is the truth.  I'm telling the truth when I say the police were not there.  They did not help us.  They were not involved.
	If maybe people may say that they participated by helping with the plans, maybe I would agree because I was not involved during the planning stages but inside Boipatong I didn't see any policemen.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes Ma'am?

MS PRETORIUS: Why did you go and live in KwaMadala after your parent's house was burnt in Sharpeville?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: May you please repeat because my earphone seems to have a little problem.

MS PRETORIUS: Why did you go and live in KwaMadala after your parents' house was burnt in Sharpeville?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: My apologies again, I cannot hear clearly.  I can hear the voice but you're not audible enough.

MR LAX: If you just move that thing forward a little bit, that black thing.  It's just blocking the signal where it is.  Can you hear better now?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes.  May you please repeat the question, Ma'am?

MS PRETORIUS: Why did you go and live in KwaMadala after your parents' house was burnt in Sharpeville?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: It is because at that time after the - because they were calling me Inkatha at that time, therefore I had to run to KwaMadala hostel because I had no place to run to.

MS PRETORIUS: Was it safe at KwaMadala hostel if you were a member of Inkatha?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, it was safe.

MS PRETORIUS: Do you know who killed Victor Keswa?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: We were both in prison.  I heard the following day when I was told by the police but I don't know who killed him.  I don't know who killed him but he died in the hands of the police.

MS PRETORIUS: What kind of gun did you have?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I had a 9mm.

MS PRETORIUS: How many bullets did you shoot?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: When I arrived at KwaMadala I was left with three bullets, so that means I used 13.

MS PRETORIUS: I have no further questions, thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr da Silva?

MR DA SILVA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Magubane, I understand your evidence to be that you only saw one military vehicle when you left Boipatong and crossed the road on the way to KwaMadala, is that correct?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR DA SILVA: Can you estimate more or less what the time was when you saw this military vehicle?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just hold on second, we just want to change the headphones.

MR LAX: Can you hear properly now?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR DA SILVA: Is it possible to estimate the time more or less when you saw the military vehicle?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: It was at night.  I don't remember even the time when we returned from KwaMadala but it was at night.  I saw that vehicle when we were leaving Boipatong, on our way to the hostel.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Mazibuko testified that he recalls vehicles approaching the group as the group was crossing the road and then the vehicle turned around and went away, is that your recollection of what happened?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I don't remember seeing a vehicle turning back.  The vehicle that I saw was on its way from Vanderbijl Park in the direction of Sebokeng.  I never saw it turning.

MR DA SILVA: So I understand your evidence to be that this vehicle was moving away from the group, is that correct, when you saw it?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I'm talking about the route from Vanderbijl Park that passes through the robots to Sebokeng, so that vehicle was facing the direction of Sebokeng.  I didn't see whether it turned at the robot or not because at the robots there is a cross, so there is a way that leads to KwaMadala and the other one to Cape Gate.  I did not recognise whether it turned there at that cross.

MR DA SILVA: Is your evidence then that when you saw the vehicle it was in the vicinity of the robot?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, it was not far from the robots.  I can see where this car was, it was easy for you to recognise somebody between that car and the robots.

MR DA SILVA: I don't have any further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms?

CROSS- MS TANZER: Mr Magubane, you say
that you met Nosenga, or you know Mr Nosenga from the hostel when he was young, can you tell us approximately when, at what period did you meet Mr Nosenga?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: After we got there, that is when I first met Nosenga.  I used to take him just like a small boy.

MS TANZER: Well how old was he or how old did he appear to be to you?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I would say he was the same age of my younger brother who died in Boipatong.  So I took him as a child because he was the same age as my younger brother.

MS TANZER: Were you part of the youth brigade before the attack on Boipatong?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I was a member of the youth brigade before the attack on Boipatong.

MS TANZER: Were you employed in any fashion before the attack on Boipatong?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, I was unemployed.

MS TANZER: So in the period before the attack on Boipatong, would you just hang around the hostel?  What would you be doing all day?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: There was nowhere to go.  What I used to do in the township, I could not longer do because I used to run the stockvels.  So it was not possible for me to do that at KwaMadala because at KwaMadala you would not do things that you used to do in the township.

MS TANZER: Do you remember seeing or noticing Mr Nosenga's face before the Boipatong attack, who was also hanging around the hostel during that period.

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I don't remember.

MS TANZER: So on your evidence the first time you really noticed him was after he was arrested for the Boipatong attack and was released on bail with you?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I say I saw him after I got back, when we were released from prison, then I met him at the hostel.  That is after we got the bail, not that I was with him in prison.

MS TANZER: So after you got bail did you return to the KwaMadala hostel?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: There was no place I could go.

MS TANZER: So when you befriended him when you were released on bail, did you discuss with him the attack on Boipatong?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I never talked to him, we never had any discussions.

MS TANZER: So what did you mean when you said you related to him like your brother, your younger brother?

CHAIRPERSON: Miss, he did not say that.  As I recall his evidence he says Nosenga was of the same age as his younger brother who was killed in Boipatong.

MS TANZER: As the Chairman pleases.
	In your evidence-in-chief you said you did not know a police known as Peens then, you emphasised the word "then", did you later know Peens, was he known to you at any stage after the Boipatong attack?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I knew him after the death of Getisi.  I knew him when Getisi was killed. That was the first time that I knew Peens.

MS TANZER: How did you come to know him?