Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: That Madam Chair is not the truth, we would have not allowed it.  With the overseas press and our press in our areas we would not have allowed these people to attack right in front of our eyes.  We knew what would have been presented in the papers.  Why would we have done that?

MR NTSEBEZA: Well the local press actually ran and I've read it in your presence here whilst you were sitting there, your local press, not only the Cape Times, a number of other media persons gave eye witness accounts of what I say was happening.  So - in fact as that editorial says it's either these people who were giving these horrific accounts as to what you were doing are liars or the police haven't got a clue of what was happening there.

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No that is not correct Madam Chair.  It might have appeared as if the police were not doing anything.  We did a lot of things, there were many things I can show you which the police did, but I wonder of the media said that on the 9th and the 10th whether the media mentioned the Comrades who gathered near KTC and only later on they marched in the direction of Old Crossroads to attack those people, I wonder whether the media or the eye witnesses mentioned that event.

MR NTSEBEZA: Do you know John Freeth?  Can he stand please.  Mr Freeth can you stand up please.  Have you ever seen that gentleman?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Yes I have seen him before.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did you see him on that day?  Did you see him on any of the two or three days during which this mayhem was taking place at KTC?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Yes I think I have seen him.

MR NTSEBEZA: Shhh, shhh please, you can sit down John.  Are you aware that at some stage he was arrested for rescuing people?  Well I don't know what he was arrested for because at the police station he was told that you know he's free to go, but were you aware that he was there trying to get the police, preventing the police from unlawful action of the nature that I have described?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Later on I became aware that he had been there, I read it in the papers, I heard it on the radio ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: I mean ...(intervention)

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: He was taken away from this area.

MR NTSEBEZA: He was taken away from what area?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: From KTC.

MR NTSEBEZA: By the police?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: By the police, yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now I won't recount his entire testimony but he was quite emphatic about what was happening there.  Apparently he kept a diary or a pocket book.  He was able to give us, as he says he was able to give the Supreme Court in a matter that came before those courts related to these events, detailed accounts of the casspir numbers, what they did, including firing at Comrades whilst the Witdoeke were being given an opportunity thereby to attack the comrades, are you contesting the veracity of his account?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No.

MR NTSEBEZA: He in fact says there were other people like Mr Russel Michaels who say you, and W/O Barnard used to drive around in a police van in the area and that you observed and controlled the movements of the police in the area.  And what was significant was that you never came under attack from the Witdoeke.

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: That is correct, the Witdoeke never attacked us.  The Comrades did attack us.

MR NTSEBEZA: But what was interesting was that the Witdoeke would be standing on the side of the road heavily armed but they were never arrested by you nor by Barnard, can you tell us why this was so?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: Madam Chair to arrest people there you take a policeman away from the area and those people who were killing one another you could not contain them because then the policeman would also be removed from the area.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see.  Now why do you think these people would make all these allegations about you and your unit if it wasn't true?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: I don't know why they make these allegations.

MR NTSEBEZA: Is it your attitude that what took place there was that those camps that were destroyed were destroyed as a result of a faction fight which broke out between the Comrades and the Witdoeke, would that be your own version of what happened?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: That is correct Madam Chair.  I want to tell you why.  Because you must take this thing as from 1985, not only '86, you should see it in context.  These fights started in January 1986 when the older people went up Lansdowne Road, the passed KTC and the old people were attacked.  They were necklaced, their houses were torched and the old people resisted, they rose up against the Comrades and they were tired of the atrocities and nobody blamed them for that.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now is it also your evidence, and this seems to be the general trend of your evidence which you gave in the Supreme Court in the selection that came out there, that the gathering of the Witdoeke at Crossroads on the 9th, 10th and 11th was not so much for them to be wanting to take KTC, but that they had gathered there to defend their homes against the attacks by Comrades mainly from KTC, is that what you still maintain today?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: That is correct.  They were tired of the Comrades.

MR NTSEBEZA: And are you still saying, and I understand that was the main tenor, or was the tenor of your evidence when you testified in the civil action in the Supreme Court some years ago, that the police were unable to put a stop to the faction fighting because all they could do was to contain the situation as best as possible until the fighting spirit of the two factions had spent itself?  They must fight until they cannot fight anymore, then till they are tired, then the police can come, say oh ja now you've had enough of fighting, thank you very much.

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: No, no we prevented many fights in that area.  We did a lot of patrols by feet.  Big operations were executed in the satellite camps.  The police did a lot to try and contain the violence.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did you do that by mainly monitoring the advancing Witdoeke and the Comrades, was that the strategy that you - monitoring the advancing Witdoeke, was that the main strategy?  And when the fight between them occurred or seemed imminent you would use teargas to drive them apart so as to present loss of life, was that your strategy?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: The strategy, they were warned beforehand to go away, to disperse.  We could have used teargas but those thousands of people would have dispersed all through the area and we would have had greater violence than today, and there would have been a bigger massacre.  All those people were armed and they dispersed in various directions.

MR NTSEBEZA: But you seem to suggest, as I understand the tenor of your evidence, that you could not use teargas as the wind was blowing in the wrong direction?

CORNELIUS ADOLF JANSE ODENDAL: It could have been on that specific day, I can't remember specifically.