Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-30

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: I do agree that probably there may have been other people in the house.

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you, Mr Chair.
	Now let me understand your complaint against Mr Msizi correctly, is your only complaint that he was an IFP member and a council member and that he was opposed to the ANC?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think that was - his complaint was initially, you may get other answers now, but he was councillor whose activities didn't favour the community.

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you, Mr Chair.
	Let me rephrase my question.  Did you ever see Mr Msizi attack the community or being involved in crimes against the community?

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: ...(no English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: I think you better be very careful, to define what you mean by crime to the witness.  What you and I may regard as common law crimes or statutory crimes, there are other crimes which are moral, which the witness may refer to as crimes.  They've always being doing so in political talk.

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you, Mr Chair.
	I'll rephrase to state: did you ever see Mr Msizi involved in attacks against the community?

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: No, I haven't.

MR SWANEPOEL: So when you say that the reason for you committing the offence, in your application on page 70 of the bundle, is
"General defence of the community."
the word "defence" is not strictly speaking correct, is that true?

CHAIRPERSON: That's precisely what I was getting to, Mr Swanepoel.  I don't want to put words into the witness's mouth but I have come across interpretations of offences by victims, for example corruption, taking away their homes for whatever reason, manipulating a list of people who are waiting to be allocated houses, that sort of thing.
	Strictly speaking that may not be crime as we understand it, but there have been applications that I've come across, where people refer to those kind of activities as crimes and defending the community against such activities.

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you, Mr Chair, I'll leave that aspect for argument.
	One final question, Mr Xaba.  Could you just refresh my memory, who exactly was with you when the attack was launched?

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: It was Perry Dlamini, Bafana Baloi and Jacky Macheo.

MR SWANEPOEL: I have no further questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL

ADV DE JAGER: You testified that you prepared the petrol bombs.

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: Yes, that's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: When were those bombs prepared?

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: Before  we went and attacked Mr Msizi's house.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, how long before, an hour before or two hours before?

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: We prepared these from 6 o'clock and the attack took place at 9 o'clock.

ADV DE JAGER: And when did you start - you said you went to the house, I couldn't catch it, was it 50 minutes, 50, or 15 before the attack?

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: 15 minutes before the attack.

ADV DE JAGER: And you didn't look into the house at that stage, through a window or a door?

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: Msizi's house used to have policemen all the time and it was not easy for one to look through the windows or the doors because of that.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, but we know that there were no policemen on that evening.

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: I'm talking about 9 o'clock, and these people changed shifts, so the other group left and the other group was about to come.  It was not easy for us to enter, to actually enter Msizi's house but we could see from a distance.

ADV DE JAGER: When did the police leave, the first shift?  Did you see them leaving?

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: Yes, we saw the police leaving.

ADV DE JAGER: And after they left, didn't you go up to the window to look who is there?

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: No, Msizi was there and he was our only target.  We were not worried about others.  As soon as the police left, we attacked.

ADV DE JAGER: So you don't know whether there were others in the house?

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: As I have mentioned, we were sure that Msizi's family had already gone and he came back alone and the police had gone already, so we were sure that he was alone.  We didn't know that there were other people whom we don't know.

ADV DE JAGER: And how long before the attack did the police go?

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: It took us three minutes.  As soon as the police left, we attacked.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

ADV MOTATA: Mr Xaba, you said after you hurled these petrol bombs you ran away, did I hear you correctly?

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: Yes, we ran away.

ADV MOTATA: Do you know what damage was done to Mr Msizi's house?

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: I saw the damage the following day.

ADV MOTATA: How much was the damage?

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: Now if you're talking about monetary, I wouldn't know but it was damaged.

ADV MOTATA: I mean how were the walls damaged or what burnt because of the petrol bombs?

THEMBA RICHARD XABA: The roof was damaged but the walls were still there.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

MR SAMUELS: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.  May the witness be excused?  Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED