Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-22

MR MALAN: When your wife gave the instruction to call these people on the list, did you say how many people to call?

DEON MARTIN: She said - no, I just told her just call most of them.

MR MALAN: How many names were on that list?

DEON MARTIN: I cannot remember, this was four years ago, it was quite some time ago.

MR MALAN: Mr Martin, approximately 10 names, 100 names, 1 400 names?  You were referring to Randfontein, how many names on that list?

DEON MARTIN: The list just consisted of the names of officers, approximately about 60 if I recall correctly.

MR MALAN: You did not tell your wife how many of them to call?

DEON MARTIN: I told het to just call some of them as the instruction was.

MR MALAN: The issue of the stopping of this roadblock, when my colleague next to me put a question to you you said it was pitch dark, you couldn't see whether there were any women or children.

DEON MARTIN: I did not see, I myself personally did not.

MR MALAN: But you did the questioning.

DEON MARTIN: Yes, I was standing here in the middle and then I just asked a general question and then they just answered from the side.

MR MALAN: Did you ask them one by one?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, basically, I cannot remember that we questioned any women and children otherwise I would have remembered it.

MR MALAN: You asked them one by one and if you say basically, what do you mean?  Did you ask all of them or did you not ask all of them?

DEON MARTIN: I cannot remember.  I cannot recall whether we asked all of them but I believe we did but I cannot be sure.

MR MALAN: But you say most of them said they were ANC supporters, how do you know this was the majority?

DEON MARTIN: We can deduce this from the answers that were given to us.

MR MALAN: Do you know how many people there were?

DEON MARTIN: I think there was about 10, yes.

MR MALAN: The pattern as you stopped these vehicles at the roadblock, can you describe this?  How did you handle this?  You stopped the vehicle, you walked to the driver?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MR MALAN: And you asked the driver: "Where do you come from"?

DEON MARTIN: No, we got them out of the vehicle and then asked them: "Where do you come from"? and then we searched the vehicle.

MR MALAN: This signal which you gave, where did you agree upon this signal.

DEON MARTIN: We formed a group when myself and Phil Kloppers decided this was the target, we formed a line and I gave them the signal.

MR MALAN: How did the others know this was the signal?

DEON MARTIN: We told them, if I fire the weapon they should also fire.

MR MALAN: They did not know beforehand that they would shoot?

DEON MARTIN: They knew already that Uncle Harry's that we were going to shoot.

MR MALAN: This issue of the cutting off of the ear of one of the persons, you were asked before and you said that this was on instruction from Phil Kloppers.

DEON MARTIN: Correct.

MR MALAN: And it was asked what the purpose was of this instruction and you said he wanted to show the other areas how to go about the task.  Did General Oelofse tell you this or Phil Kloppers?

DEON MARTIN: General Oelofse said ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: No, no, I'm talking about this incident, the instruction to cut off the ear, did it come from Phil Kloppers?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MR MALAN: Then my question would be, did he - then there was asked of you: "Why"? and you said you wanted to show the other areas how to go about this task.

DEON MARTIN: The ear would have been handed to General Oelofse, that is probably what I incorrectly - the ear was handed over to General Oelofse.  ...[Transcriber's own translation]

MR MALAN: I just want to understand the instruction at that stage, that is what I'm trying to understand.

DEON MARTIN: He told me the ear was intended for General Oelofse to show the other areas how things are done.

MR MALAN: In other words he wanted to go and brag by General Oelofse?

DEON MARTIN: It would have been a trophy from Mr Kloppers to General Oelofse.

DEON MARTIN: I cannot answer on that.

MR MALAN: Why can you not answer on that?

DEON MARTIN: I can't.

MR MALAN: But why can't you, you can answer from a distance about this trophy but you cannot answer on the issue of the trophy with Mr Kloppers?

DEON MARTIN: I know that on a previous occasion General Oelofse asked me that he wanted and ear so I knew that he wanted one as a trophy.  ...[Transcriber's own translation]

DEON MARTIN: And you've also said that you used the knife or you received a knife from Oelofse but you said this wasn't the knife that you used, you said the knife that you used you won at a lottery.

DEON MARTIN: Correct.

MR MALAN: Why do you say from General Nick Fourie?

DEON MARTIN: It was South Natal, I was there for a year-end function and that is where I got it.

MR MALAN: So Nick Fourie did not give you this knife, you won it at a lottery?

DEON MARTIN: But he gave it to me.

MR MALAN: Oh, he handed it over as the prize for the lottery?

DEON MARTIN: Correct.

MR MALAN: And you say that Mr Oelofse at a previous stage said if you come across a body, cut the ear off, now how do you find a body that you can cut the ear off?

DEON MARTIN: I saw that war was close, it was at hand and the revolution would start soon ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: So he wanted an ear as a trophy, he didn't want you to kill people?

DEON MARTIN: No, he said if we find a body and I saw this as when we were at war.

MR MALAN: And this ear, what did you do with the ear at the scene, how did you handle this?  Who cut the ear off?

DEON MARTIN: I cut it off, it didn't bleed profusely.  I took him to the Mercedes and I put him there and I cut his ear off.

MR MALAN: And the plastic bag?

DEON MARTIN: I gave it to Phil Kloppers.

MR MALAN: What did he do with it?

DEON MARTIN: He took it out at Jaco Badenhorst's house and he showed it to them.

MR MALAN: Was this immediately after this incident?

DEON MARTIN: Yes.

MR MALAN: The same night?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, the same night.

MR MALAN: What time did this incident occur?

DEON MARTIN: If I have to guess it was about 12 o'clock.

MR MALAN: The statement you refer to, that you gave to the police, on page 152, page 153 of the bundle.  Will you help me please, page 155, 154/55 of the bundle.  You said that the statement is correct, you confirmed it?

DEON MARTIN: Yes.

MR MALAN: What is incorrect in there?

DEON MARTIN: I don't have the statement in front of me but there are many things that I omitted.

MR MALAN: Mention something.  If you can remember so much then you will be able to say what was not correct in the statement.

DEON MARTIN: At no stage did I mention that we received instruction to shoot, that there had to be bodies and that the revolution would start that evening.

MR MALAN: The shortcoming in the statement, it's not a falsehood, are there faults here?  Did you say things that were not as such?

DEON MARTIN: If I had the statement in front of me but I don't have it ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: But you answered on your advocate's question, that in the statement you tried to protect yourself and your comrades, now point out where in the statement do you protect yourself and your comrades.  Let's start with you, where did you protect yourself?

DEON MARTIN: At no stage did I mention that I shot people that evening, I mentioned that I heard shots.

MR MALAN: Yes?

DEON MARTIN: I mentioned that everybody was armed and that was false, everybody was not armed, Diedericks was not armed.  And I also mentioned that the purpose of the roadblock - this in paragraph 7
"to stop the kaffirs and to hit them and to intimidate them
that was not the instruction.

MR MALAN: Just on that point, the statement you made, the protection, was this more just to say that it was a criminal act?

DEON MARTIN: No, I think it was better than murder.