Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-05

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well it's true because I am trying to picture Mr Mahumela in our office, interrogating room and I am trying again to picture some of the sections which the Reverend went past, Mr Chikororo as well and I can't really link Mr Mahumela in this regard.  As such I do agree that I beat him but I don't want to lie saying, just to perhaps say - I don't want to lie and say I didn't beat him although I wouldn't say exactly I beat him or not.  That is why I want to agree with the Committee that I beat Mr Mahumela, but I might have slapped him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You are not agreeing with the Committee.  The Committee is not asking you to agree to anything.  The Committee is here to hear your evidence.  It is hear to take details of what you admit to having committed on the suspects listed in paragraph 3 of your own application.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well let me say I must just release myself because I don't want to confuse and not say what is expected of me.  Well I don't know exactly what - how I beat Mr Mahumela, that is why I am saying I might have possibly been involved but I might have slapped him as well.  I don't want to lie before the Committee.  Because quite often if one had done something very much prepared one will remember that this is one or two things that one has done.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you can't remember whether or not you beat him, but you may have?  Is that what you are saying?  You can't remember it at all, but you may have although you can't remember it.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: You have got no recollection at all of whether you slapped him with an open hand or whether you punched him with a fist or whether you assisted or yourself placed electric shocks, applied the electric shock method to him or any other method, you can't remember but you won't dispute that you might have done it?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well I don't want to dispute before the Committee, but I can't really picture myself, linking myself to Mahumela, I cannot.

CHAIRPERSON: So you might even, it might even be so that you never in fact tortured him or struck him or beat him because you can't remember?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well I can't say I didn't torture him at all.  I might have been involved but I just can't picture myself before Mr Mahumela and torturing him.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Nesamari are you trying to tell us that these assaults were so indiscriminate and so sustained that you cannot distinguish the various types of assaults on the various victims?  Is that what you are trying to tell us?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well I am not saying I cannot make a clear distinction.  There are areas which I am able to recall, the incidents which took place.  However, there are some sections in which one cannot be able to say exactly what happened.  That is why I am saying Chipirwa was one of the detainees and he's one of those people who was being interrogated.  And that is why I am saying I cannot say I am not involving myself but I cannot picture in that regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Let's just clear up this point.  What you are actually telling us then is that the answer you gave on your statement with regard to Mr Mahumela is that you cannot remember if you assaulted him but it is possible?  Is that basically what you are saying?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well it is true, I can't remember but I might have possibly beaten him.

MR MEYER: Okay.  What objective were you trying to reach in participating in these assaults and tortures on the detainees?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: I was part of the investigating team which had a goal of trying to extract information which will lead to the people who bombed the police station.  That is the main goal that we were looking for.

MR MEYER: What kind of instructions did you have from your superior officers?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Let me say as a junior member I didn't have any instruction directly coming to me.  The only instruction that I will get will be from the team leader, who was Mr Ramaligela or the late Sofuwa, to the effect that we had to work effectively so that we would be able to extract the information as to what happened which led to the bombing of the police station; as to who were involved in the bombing of the police station.  And that is how it happened, and we were working day in and day out.

MR MEYER: Now sitting here today and thinking back on these things that you did, how do you feel about it?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well what happened years back - are you referring to the bombing of the police station or regarding the victims?

MR MEYER: I am talking about your treatment of the victims.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: I just want to say in particular to the victims and their families that it is true that I was involved in torturing them.  If I will be very clear I will say that my torturing the Reverends and some of the members who were also belonging to the Lutheran Church, led into difficulties with regard to my life.  I was hated by the nation.  I was not able to live well.  The separation of my family.  I didn't have the best relationship with my family anymore, my young brothers.  Also I tortured my own family because my family was also transformed into victims because of the torture that I made with regard to the Reverends.  The nation regarded me as a monster.  I was not happy at all.
	Moreover I just want to submit that with regard to any victim, perhaps mentioning them by name, let me say looking at Dean Farisani, as the elder or senior member of the Church in those days, that is true that Mr Dean and his family really suffered with regard to the tortures that I did, or my deeds.
	Well I didn't know exactly that the Dean was related to me, that is why I was not so surprised that my young brother hated me.  My young brother married the - I realised that when I was torturing Mr Dean I didn't realise he was my relative.  His family suffered because of me ...(intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I interrupt you.  This is a very short-lived Committee, please try and confine your responses to what is relevant and that will impinge on us being able to decide on whether to grant you amnesty or not.  You have, however, been asked by your counsel what, if you have anything to say to the victims, so confine yourself to that question, and that question only.  You don't have to give us a background of your relationship with any of the victims.  Do you have anything to say to them in relation to the assaults for which you are seeking amnesty?