Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-25

XOLANI PUNGULA: By that time, the youth used to take actions after drinking, and we would actually attempt fighting.  I was also going to attempt fighting because I was actually making me to be brave, that was our way of taking bravery, (indistinct) things like that.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time of stabbing the deceased, would you say you were in a position, taking into account your state of insobriety, to form a specific intention, to know what you were doing?

XOLANI PUNGULA: I wouldn't really say I wasn't sure or not really, because of the drunkenness.

MR LAX: Sorry, just repeat the translation for us.  I couldn't hear you very clearly.

XOLANI PUNGULA: I wouldn't say really I wasn't aware, because I was drunk.

MR LAX: Ms Interpreter, what I am trying to understand is, is he saying that he is agreeing that he wasn't that aware because he was drunk, or is he saying he wouldn't say that he was so drunk that he wasn't aware what was going on?

INTERPRETER: The former.

MR LAX: So you confirm - just to pick it up and confirm it properly, Mr Pungula, you are saying that you weren't that sure of what you were doing, because you were drunk?  Am I right?

XOLANI PUNGULA: Yes, it is the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: We have heard from the other applicants who have given evidence, they said that they stabbed the deceased because they had started that thing together and then they had to end it together.
	My understanding was that they were all involved in the initial assault of the deceased, they were the ones who initially confronted the deceased and then took her to Msolo's house which led ultimately to the stabbing.
	It seems that you weren't there at the start, because you say you weren't there when she was initially assaulted.  Why then did you stab the deceased yourself?

XOLANI PUNGULA: What I can say is that when we were at Solomon Msolo, the Chairperson, I was listening, I was around and actually realised what actually prompted this, and I actually realised that it was wrong what she did and actually felt it was fit for me to partake against the action that she has done.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Just one question Chairperson, I am still a little bit puzzled, what made you to go to Msolo's house?  Why did you go there in the first place?
	You weren't involved initially, why did you go there?

XOLANI PUNGULA: I am actually a bit confused when you say I wasn't partaking.  That is the question.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was why were you at Msolo's house?

MR LAX: And what I said when you weren't partaking, I said you didn't participate initially in the assaults and so on, so you wouldn't have been part of the original group that took the deceased to Msolo's house.  What made you to go to Msolo's house, that is what we are trying to understand?

XOLANI PUNGULA: At Msolo, I was taken by some of the accused, one of them is here, one of them is Bongani Sacharia Gwala and the other one is one who is not here.  Those are the people who took me on the way and then we went there to listen to the case of this girl.
	That is where, that is how I actually arrived and continued to be part of it.

MR LAX: Did they come to your house and fetched you or were they with you or how did you even know there was a case going on?

XOLANI PUNGULA: They took me, I was standing outside, not inside the house, outside on the yard, inside the yard.

MR LAX: So were they passing and they just said come with us?

XOLANI PUNGULA: Yes.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Sipho any questions arising?

MR SIPHO: As the Court pleases.  Although you were not initially a part of the group that assaulted the deceased, when you got to Mr Msolo's house and you got to know what the deceased had actually done, how did you feel about it?

XOLANI PUNGULA: It wasn't good, I didn't feel good because they were AZAPO members and ANC members who were late, because of such situation, of a situation similar to that one at Msolo's place, that this girl is involved in.

MR SIPHO: Was it this feeling that made you associate yourself with what the other people were doing to the deceased on that day?

XOLANI PUNGULA: Will you repeat your question?

XOLANI PUNGULA: Was it the feelings that you were having at the time that you were at Msolo's house, as you were listening to what the deceased had done, that made you want to join the other applicants in doing what they did to the deceased?

XOLANI PUNGULA: Yes.

MR SIPHO: Thank you, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIPHO

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: No questions Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Pungula, that concludes your testimony.  You may stand down.

<UNKNOWN>: .