Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-20

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Samuel.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mbane, you were asked in regard to Mr Miyeza, the Committee wanted to know in what possible way Mr Miyeza could have been contacted to come over and I just want to ask you a question on that.  Do you recall what vehicle Mr Miyeza came in on that day, was it a State vehicle or was it his private vehicle?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It was the State vehicle.

MR SAMUEL: Would that vehicle have a radio in it, a police radio of some sort?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I cannot remember because I did not go and look, but most of the State cars have a radio.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Samuel, if I could just ask on this.  When you say it was a State vehicle, was it a police van with a badge on the side, B number plates?  When you say it was a State vehicle, could you, or was it an ordinary looking vehicle without police number plates and without markings?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It was not marked.

CHAIRPERSON: So how did you know it was a State vehicle?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Because I used to see that car after that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: But you confirm that in all probability there would have been a police radio in that vehicle?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That's what I think.

MR SAMUEL: Now in regard to the lighting at this place here in Winkelspruit, you told this Commission that there was no electricity there, they used batteries, battery power, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That's correct.

MR SAMUEL: Do you recall whether they had lights, whether powered by battery or otherwise, on the day in question when Ms Kubheka died?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: We were using batteries as lights.

MR SAMUEL: I see.

CHAIRPERSON: No, just on that, when you say you were using batteries, were these little hand torches, or did you have big lamps that ran off car batteries?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: We were using motor batteries.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	And you can recall that the lights were on on the day in question?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR SAMUEL: So your visibility so far as darkness was concerned, there was no darkness, you could see what was going on around you?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: There were places that were dark, but we were there was light.

MR SAMUEL: So it was easy for you to see a body being removed from the room that it was placed in, am I right?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR SAMUEL: Right.  You were asked by Mr Nel about Mr Coetzer, now you knew that Mr Coetzer was at Winkelspruit on the night in question, am I right?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR SAMUEL: Was there any need for you to take particular attention of his activities ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Samuel, as I said to Mr Hugo, I know this is re-examination but the value of questions where you lead the witness completely is not much use to anybody.

MR SAMUEL: I'll leave that for argument.
	Now Sir, you mentioned during cross-examination that the body of Ms Kubheka fitted in a boot, as far as you were concerned you could see it being fitted in a boot, am I right?  - of a motor vehicle.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, that's entirely an incorrect statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Because he said he didn't know whether it was in a kombi or a car.

MR VISSER: A kombi or a - yes.

MR SAMUEL: May I just rephrase that question.  Do you know, have you any recollection whether that body was placed in a Nissan Skyline on the night in question?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I cannot remember.

MR SAMUEL: I see.  But from where you stood you were able to see that that body was placed in a vehicle without any difficulty, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR SAMUEL: Now, much was made about the statements that you had made, you had made two statements or basically one statement which appears in bundle 1 from page 122 to page 131 and in the additional bundle, bundle 2, from 120 to 137, which statement you had confirmed.  Now what was your reason for giving those statements?  Was it because you just wanted to give a general outline of the incidents that you were involved in?  Would I be correct in saying that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It is because I wanted to free my conscience by giving out these statements concerning the things ...(end of tape 2 side A)
	... of these people could be able to know what happened to their people.

MR SAMUEL: Now when those statements were taken, do you recall who took down those statements, or did you write out those statements?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: There are a lot of people who used to come to me and to write down statements.  I cannot remember them all, but what I can still remember is that the person who wrote this statement, the person that I approached was John from Durban, but I don't know where in Durban.  But it was John.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was John, was he a friend of yours or was he a policeman or a lawyer or?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: A member of the TRC staff.  He is the person that I approached and I told him that I wanted to write a statement concerning what happened in KwaMashu.  But others used to come to me for statements, but the main person that I spoke to about what happened was this John.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.
	Were these statements ever read back to you at any stage?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Some of the statements I don't remember it being read back because some of them would just write down, but there are other statements that are read out after making the statements, because some people would come and I would give them  a statement and then I would never see them again.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Samuel, I thought when he was giving evidence-in-chief he confirmed these statements, he said there were the two and they were basically the same and he confirmed them, now what are you trying to do, are you trying to un-confirm what's been confirmed?

MR SAMUEL: No, no, no, I did mention that he had confirmed them when I just outlined, when I came to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: One would imagine that the way it was said - it's just an impression, I might be wrong, that was how his evidence was started, "you've made two statements, they appear here and they appear there, they essentially the same, do you confirm them?"  That those would have been the statements which were used in the consultations, the basis for consultation.

MR SAMUEL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And if they weren't read to him at the time of being taken, then before he made that statement any discrepancies would have been picked up.

MR SAMUEL: Yes, but I just wanted - my next question will clarify the entire ...
	Is it not true that your evidence-in-chief today went into some detail, it added to these statements, am I right?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SAMUEL: I see.  Now Sir, tell me, do you have any grievance against any of your colleagues while you were at Winkelspruit or while you were operating in Durban?  Do you have any axe to grind with them?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, I do not have any grievances.

MR SAMUEL: Will you have any reason to lie to this Commission in regard to their activities?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, I don't have any reasons.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.  Now if as Mr Botha says in his evidence that you were asked to bring some other person other than Ms Kubheka to them, were you ever reprimanded for any mistakes in regard to whom you brought to see your white handlers?  That you brought the wrong person and you messed up the entire investigation?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: This issue about bringing the wrong person, it is the first time I hear about it here.  This is the first time I hear about it.

CHAIRPERSON: But the question was, were you ever reprimanded for bringing the deceased to them at Battery Beach?  That's the question.  Did you get into trouble about it, were you reprimanded for doing it?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Because I did not bring any wrong person, so I was never reprimanded about that.