Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-28

FERDINAND BARNARD: Not necessarily, it may be so, or it may possibly be that she decided that seeing as she was going to nail me, she would do it good and well.  Such suggestions were reported in the media as a reason for the commission of the Webster murder, it would appear that somebody said something like that to her.

MR WESSELS: You suggested that Adv Ackerman should be the one, isn't that so Mr Barnard?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, but he doesn't have to be the only one.

MR WESSELS: Why are you trying to implicate Adv Ackerman in something which would be unethical if not blatantly dishonest?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Because I don't like him.

MR WESSELS: Yes, Mr Barnard.  You see, that is what I am going to put to you, that all the persons that you have decided have betrayed you, will be the persons that you will implicate in some or other manner.  You will hand out shots left, right and centre, but if there are persons whom you believe, have supported you and have stood by you, like Mr Botha, you will try to protect them, but Slang van Zyl, Joe Verster and Lafras Luitingh are convenient candidates to be implicated in a web of lies?  Isn't that so?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, that is not true.  Let me tell you if I wanted to knock these persons, then all three of them would have been in the cells that you have just mentioned.
	The Attorney-General and his team came to visit me 17 times, after I was detained.  Their offer was for me to be removed immediately from C-Max and similar circumstances, that I can choose which correctional facility I would like to be in, if I gave my co-operation.  I was promised by Adv Torie Pretorius who came to visit me personally, he said "work with me, give me statements against the others, we will take you out of C-Max within 48 hours" and they even went as far as offering me a lesser sentence which would be arranged with the AG and the Minister of Justice.  That was offered to me.
	Here are my legal representatives with me, it was reported to them.  On the contrary, I had a plague from the AG's office, around me, because they wouldn't take no for an answer. I wrote them a letter at one point, asking them to desist from visiting me because I didn't want to cooperate with them.
	So if that was my plan, it would have been the golden opportunity to tell the Attorney-General "listen, these people are bothering me and I am angry with them, I will give you the statements against them."

MR WESSELS: Brenda Mills had nothing to do with any CCB member or the CCB as a structure?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No.  Her connection was with me as far as I know.

MR WESSELS: One would think that if you had told her that you shot Webster as you admit you indeed did, she would have asked you why you did it?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I don't think she would have asked me because from the very beginning I told her that this man was a project and that he would be killed.  I didn't give her the reasons why he had to be killed, he was part of the enemy.

MR WESSELS: Well, then one finds it surprising that she testified what I have just read to you and didn't simply state that it was a CCB project which Barnard had to execute.

FERDINAND BARNARD: Except of course if the scenario is true as I have put it to you, that someone put the idea in her mind.

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard, in the post mortem inquest into the death of Dr Webster, Mr Verster testified that the report was made to him by Mr Luitingh that you admitted having killed Dr Webster, do you recall this?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, I cannot recall specifically that Joe Verster gave evidence.  At that stage he was acting under a disguise, the court was not attended, I was not permitted to be in attendance while he gave evidence, it was held in camera.
	I was advised by Mr du Plessis, my legal representative on my left, at that stage, that it would incriminate Verster in the way that you have suggested.

MR WESSELS: He was not in disguise upon this occasion.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I am convinced that he was in disguise, if he wasn't disguised, then he was smuggled in in some or other way, I was not permitted to attend the proceedings.

MR WESSELS: Mr Luitingh gave evidence against you during those proceedings?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That was conveyed to me as such, I did not listen to his evidence.

MR WESSELS: They testified that you made the allegation against Mr Luitingh that you shot Webster?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, they gave that evidence, I was told about it.

MR WESSELS: Consequently you and the CCB came into confrontation with each other, at that stage, regarding what the correct versions were, isn't that so?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct Chairperson.  The situation originated that Joe Verster who had walked the whole road with me, denied everything about the Webster incident and when the chips were down and they saw that there was a possible prosecution, if Judge Stegman were to make a finding that it was a CCB project, we could all be charged, and they all turned.
	When I looked again, they had all turned and they were all incriminating me.

MR WESSELS: And indeed you say that you received the instruction from them to kill Dr Webster?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: So they let you down, the CCB and those two persons specifically, let you down?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is what I have said.

MR WESSELS: The Defence Force also did not support you, is that correct?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Are you referring to the CCB?

MR WESSELS: In terms of the CCB?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, they did not.

MR WESSELS: And in terms of the CCB?

FERDINAND BARNARD: They supported me in as far as it involved legal expenses, I didn't have a contract with them.  What I found strange was that all of these things were happening, hundreds of thousands of rands were expended on my legal expenses, however this was for something illegal according to them.

MR WESSELS: And after you left DCC, did the Military or the Defence Force give you any support?

FERDINAND BARNARD: After I left?  No.

MR WESSELS: When did the State arrest you on the charges for which you are currently in prison?

FERDINAND BARNARD: The 29th or the 30th of August 1997.

MR WESSELS: I see.  You were not released on bail, you were taken into custody?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I was in custody and I did not apply for bail for various reasons, the primary consideration was that every witness who made a statement was asked whether or not they feared for their lives, whether they were afraid of me, whether I made any remarks about violence and there was no real prospect of my release on bail.
	I didn't wish to waste any money, I didn't want to waste any time and that was also the advice that I received from my legal team, I decided to remain on the inside and to wait for the trial to get under way.

MR WESSELS: You were aware of the charges against you and also of these witnesses who were going to testify against you, isn't that so?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I was not aware of all the witnesses, I was aware of some of the witnesses.  Some of which who in terms of a certain section, were not put on the list of witnesses, I did not have their statements.  This took place during the trial.
	I would arrive at the venue and my Attorney would tell me that they had Brenda Mills that morning, for example.  I would have an opportunity to read the statement at that time.  We would consult and the proceedings would continue.

MR WESSELS: You must have realised, or at least you knew that you were guilty of the charges, isn't that correct?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes.

MR WESSELS: Naturally.  And you must have known that the State had a very strong case against you?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I knew that.

MR WESSELS: You must have realised that when you were found guilty as you foresaw would probably happen, that you would receive a very heavy sentence?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Most probably life?