Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-08-24

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR HUGO: And then on page 130 in the final instance, you discuss the context in which these events took place and the background against which they took place?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: On page 137 you stipulate what exactly gave rise to this incident for which you are applying for amnesty today.
	Would you like to tell us in your own words how exactly it came to be that you were involved in this incident?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.  I was the Commander of the Counter Insurgency Unit in Vlakplaas in 1985 when this incident occurred, during which an alleged ANC member was shot dead in the former Transkei.
	I can recall that members of C1 were involved in a joint operation with the former Transkei Security Police and that along with the Transkei Police, they were working in the Transkei.
	I cannot recall who the liaison officers were and by exactly which channels the arrangements were made.  I am saying this because we couldn't  work in any of the neighbouring States at all, such as Transkei, Venda or Bophuthatswana, unless arrangements had indeed been made with the relevant Security Branch in that TBVC State.
	Arrangements were usually made, let's say for example in Bophuthatswana the arrangements would have been made through the Liaison Officer who was stationed at Zeerust.  For example if we wanted to do an operation in Venda, we would liaise with the Liaison Officer who was liaising with Venda, who would then be stationed at Louis Trichardt.
	In other words, we would have liaised with one of two institutions in order to do work in the Transkei.  One would have been Aliwal North, with Willie de Lange, a Captain Willie de Lange, the other would have been with Warrant Officer Dan Naude, who was officially and generally known as the Liaison Officer or person who liaised with the Transkei Security Forces, and then indeed with the Head Office.
	Only then would C1 be able to enter the Transkei and in co-operation with a Transkei Security member or police member, would they be able to take action within the Transkei, because they didn't have any powers of arrest.
	My recollection is also that this infiltration of the ANC and PAC members was undertaken from the Lesotho area to Transkei.

MR HUGO: Might I just interrupt you here for a moment.  Firstly you have stated that an incident took place on page 137, the third line, during which a member of the ANC was shot dead in the former Transkei.  Who told you that this was indeed an ANC member?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, my recollection of that time is that the documentation which was received from the Eastern Cape, this would include telexes, reports and phone calls, created the impression that this was indeed an ANC member who had been shot dead in the Transkei.

MR HUGO: Did you have any reason to doubt this or to research the issue in order to determine whether or not this was the truth, that he was a trained member of the ANC?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson, by the time the report reached me, this person would have been identified.  In other words one or two former ANC members would have identified this person, or even more than that.
	The identification of this person, would have been put in writing as well as the Security Force file number.  I just want to explain to you what I mean by the Security Force file number.
	In former times files would be marked with S1 for whites, S2 for Asians, S3 for coloureds and S4 for blacks.  If a white person had been shot, it would be S1 and that person's specific number.
	So for me to undertake further research would have been unnecessary.  That which would reach me, would go via East London, through PE, through the Divisional Commander to the Head Office of Security in Pretoria, where it would be checked and then it would be percolated through to C1 and C2.

MR HUGO: Is it correct to say that you cannot objectively state that the deceased was a member of the ANC, that is the information that was given to you and you accepted this and believed this in good faith?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.  There is no reason why I would have doubted it in any way.

MR HUGO: Very well, you may continue.  What happened after that?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I have a recollection of a shooting of an ANC member who had been identified by a former member working for the Security Police, by the name of Shosha.  The allegations were that the ANC member, after he had been arrested in the Transkei, attempted to escape and according to information given to me, the ANC member was shot by Shosha.

MR HUGO: I beg your pardon.  Might I just once again interrupt you.  Do you remember who gave you the information that the ANC member had been shot by Shosha?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes.  I have a very vague recollection but I must just mention that I did not include it with this, because I did not want to go over into speculation.  Lieutenant Adamson, a former Koevoet member and unfortunately he is deceased today, he had cancer, he was in control of this group as far as I can remember.
	Shosha was a female member of the ANC who had only just begun working for us.  Lieutenant Adamson mentioned to me and I remember that this was during a telephonic conversation, that there was a wrestling which took place in the kombi between the Security Force members and the ANC member.
	The ANC member escaped through one of the side windows of the minibus and during this, it happened that they held him by his shoes and during his escape, he lost his shoes.  That is actually how he escaped, but during the struggle Shosha shot this man through the leg with a pistol.
	And apparently, according to my understanding, this shot was placed high up on the hip.  She had a 32 pistol.  She had been issued a 32 pistol as all female  members of the police were issued.
	I must just say that this is possible, but I did not want to include this in order to border on speculation, however, I do believe that it is significant.  The information which was based largely on hearsay was that the Transkei Police were handling the case and that an informal inquest was held into the matter.
	A while after that, questions were however posed in Parliament as to who this former ANC member had been, who was in the service of the Security Police and had been appointed as a member of the South African Police.
	I was called in by Brigadier Willem Schoon and requested to cover up the identity of the former ANC member.  It was then denied that such a member ever existed or that any former ANC member had ever been in the service of the SAP.
	I cannot recall the entire process in particular, but I did make arrangements for the removal of the documentation from Tshabalala's file as well as for the removal of any other relevant information on the central computer network of the South African Police.
	The nett result thereof was that Tshabalala ceased to exist for all ends, that would be administrative and any other purpose.
	I continued to appoint Tshabalala and once again took him into service at Head Office as a source and appointed him under the name of Mavusu.

MR HUGO: Once again, may I interrupt you.  You heard during evidence given by Mr Tshabalala that after his reappointment, he still received cash amounts.  Could you please give us an explanation as to this?