Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

JOE MAMASELA: Mr Koole, for your information, you don't know the information of your own client.  Mr Koole was never a commanded member of the South African police force, Mr Koole was the Chief of Ordinance of my organisation, the ANC in Botswana.
	He went A.W.O.L. (Absence without Leave) from the liberation struggle, he ran to South Africa and then he took out 17 trunks(?) of the DLB's of our struggle and gave them to the boers.  So he was never a commander, a member of the SAP, it was your client Koole who was, not him.  You don't your client.

MR LAMEY: Are you referring to Mr Mogoai or are you referring to Mr Koole?

JOE MAMASELA: Mr Mogoai, you said Mr Mogoai.

MR LAMEY: No, I said Mr Koole.

JOE MAMASELA: No, Mr Koole himself was a commanded member, not Mr Mogoai.

MR LAMEY: Yes, Mr ...[indistinct]  Now you say - I'm asking you, is Mr Koole one of those, being a permanent force member of the security police, was he one of those traitors, the enemies of the black people?

JOE MAMASELA: No, I wouldn't describe him as traitors and enemies man, I said he was specifically brought to Vlakplaas to oversee and to monitor and to spy on Askaris, it was his job description.

MR LAMEY: For doing that, was he not regarded as an enemy?

JOE MAMASELA: By whom?

MR LAMEY: By the Askaris and by you?

JOE MAMASELA: No, we were working together with him, that's why we killed the perpetrators together with him, how can we regard him as an enemy?

MR LAMEY: No, but you were forced to do that Mr Mamasela.

JOE MAMASELA: No, he was there also, we were there, whether we were forced to kill, we are killers, we killed.

MR LAMEY: You're not answering the question Mr Mamasela.  I'm asking ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I think he said: no, he didn't regard him as an enemy, that is why he was able to kill with him.

MR LAMEY: Well the fact Mr Mamasela that he was the one who spied on the Askaris, did you not hate him for that?

JOE MAMASELA: No, I put it clear that Askaris themselves, we were also set against each other to an extent of other Askaris killing other Askaris, this is what I said.  I said I realised that the greatest enemy of a black man is another black man, myself included.

MR LAMEY: Now yesterday you referred to Mr Koole as his master's voice, Venter's lapdog, when you ...[intervention]

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, that true.

MR LAMEY: When you were put certain statements of the evidence by Mr du Plessis to you, is that correct?

JOE MAMASELA: That is absolutely correct and I still do even now.

MR LAMEY: I also remember, if my memory serves me correctly, that you said that in the context that the version of Mr Koole is made up to coincide with his master and the other applicants, is that correct?

JOE MAMASELA: Absolutely.

MR LAMEY: On what grounds do you say that?

JOE MAMASELA: On the ground that Koole collaborated.  He was merely here to collaborate about the watch, that he saw me steel the watch and sell it to Warrant Officer Beeslaar for R30.  So that is why I say the crux, the gist of his statement was, he personally saw Mamasela steal the watch from one of the deceased, Mr Hashe.
	And I stole the watch and I went to police officer, a white police officer and then I sold it to him and he is a Warrant Officer of 27 years police experience and I was just a mere Askari.  Why didn't he arrest me there and then?  And if you steal something the last person you want to see is a policeman, especially a white policeman. 
	Now Mamasela steals and he goes to a white policeman and here's a veteran of 27 years in the police force watching and rubbing his hands gleefully and congratulating Mamasela.  Ten years, he says: "No I saw Mamasela steal".  I mean that's bungledash you know, you can see for yourself.

MR LAMEY: So what you're saying, if - do I understand the gist of your evidence here correctly, that Mr Koole is deliberately implicating you in the theft of that watch because he's still a collaborator with the white security policemen?

JOE MAMASELA: No, you are making - you are painting a political picture as if I'm a big politician, I'm taking the system, no, no, no, it's not like that.
	Let's put things in their proper perspective.  I am saying and I want you to perceive me to be saying Mr Koole's submission to the Commission was mainly to collaborate his master Beeslaar, that he saw Mamasela steal and then the watch and then sell it to Beeslaar.  He's the one who says that.
	Now I am saying because the dispute of the watch is between me and Beeslaar, here comes his master's voice and jumps into the fry and says: "Yes, I also saw", that is my perception.  Not that the whole security forces, the system, no, no, no, don't try to enlarge what I'm saying.

MR LAMEY: Well, are you referring also to Beeslaar as his master's voice?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, his master's voice has no name, he's just his master's voice.  Whether you're the master's voice of Beeslaar, of Venter, of whoever, you are his master's voice irrespective.

MR LAMEY: Now if you understand, and I'm not saying that because the evidence wasn't that as you stated it, but is you understand that Koole testified that you stole the watch from Hashe and sold it to Beeslaar, isn't he then also implicating Beeslaar in receiving stolen goods?

JOE MAMASELA: No, he's not implicating him.  You know it's a difference to say: "he receives stolen goods", it's a lesser charge than to say: "he stole".  Receiving stolen goods is different from stealing goods.

MR LAMEY: But he's still implicating him in an offence by stating that he received stolen goods.

JOE MAMASELA: In a lesser offence and he's also implicating himself being a bona fide member of the South African police with 27 years experience.  To see a crime being to committed and he decides to look the other way, he is also implicating himself for negligence.

ADV SANDI: I'm sorry Mr Lamey, can you just clarify this before there's more confusion on top of confusion. Was it not Mogoai who said this in his evidence, this story about the watch, Mamasela having stolen the watch and sold it to Beeslaar?

JOE MAMASELA: It's Koole.

MR LAMEY: I can't now remember whether that was an aspect which was also testified by Mr Mogoai but I remember that Mr Koole stated that during the unconsciousness of Mr Hashe the watch was taken from his arm and then later he overheard a discussion about a price of the watch between Beeslaar and Mr Mamasela.

ADV SANDI: I seem to recall that it was Mogoai, anyway I may be wrong.

MR LAMEY: May I just check that?

ADV DE JAGER: As far as I could see from the applications, there's no application for amnesty for the theft of a watch.  ...[sound switched off]  We've been on this for an half an hour now and there's no application for amnesty so I think if you could try and finish this part so that we can come to the real issue please.

MR LAMEY: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.
	Now apart from this watch Mr Mamasela, is it also your impression here that Mr Mogoai and Mr Koole - what I want to put to you, that in all essential respects their version differs vastly from your version.  
	If I say that to you, is it your conclusion in your mind that they are telling a story to the Amnesty Committee to fit the versions of the other white security applicants?