Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

MR LAX: Sorry, we're not getting any translation.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: He was tortured by the method of a canvas bag.

MR LAX: Yes and what did he say before that, please?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: He was assaulted and was slapped with open hands and fits.  His clothes were also taken off.

MR MGIDLANA: Is that all?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes that is all.

MR MGIDLANA: Was the helicopter not used against him?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: If it was used I was not present.

MR MGIDLANA: Were there torturing sessions in which you were not present which actually took place?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: As I've already said I was not leading when the people were tortured.  I used to be present sometimes maybe I wouldn't be there and other days I would be there.

MR MGIDLANA: Which, out of these methods, it seems you are saying these are methods that were used, did you participate, you personally participate in one of them, or is it some other people that used these methods against Nyoka?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I also participated.

MR MGIDLANA: Which one in particular did you participate in?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: All of them.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you know why Nyoka was arrested?

MR DUKADA: Sorry Mr Chairperson, I must beg the Committee to keep on and interpose you, it is not desirable.  Yesterday you were given a statement signed by Mr Nyoka here and he says - last paragraph - he does not oppose this application.  I don't know what is the purpose of this cross-examination?  Is it going to show the witness is not telling the truth or what concerning other - I don't even know which victims are opposing the application?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mgidlana?

MR MGIDLANA: Chairperson, the attitude that has been adopted by the victims is that after having heard his testimony yesterday, that is the applicant's testimony, they are of the view that it seems that he has very economical around the truth and that therefore they would like to establish exactly what the truth is because one of the requirements for him to be granted amnesty is that he must make a full disclosure, a full disclosure which must be characterised by the truth and it is therefore on that basis that we want to find out about all these aspects which seem to be a concern to the victims and which we think that he is here to clarify and it will be recalled to this in that during his testimony yesterday he was, as his legal representative has correctly pointed out, very broad and I think the purpose of the amnesty process is not that one should come and give a very broad picture but also should own up to even the minute aspects of what he had actually done so that we get a clear picture as to whether or not he is telling the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed with your questioning, but I think if you can also just bring out from your questioning what is disputed if anything is.

MR MAPOMA: Excuse me Chairperson, just before Mr Mgidlana asks a further question, I would like Chairperson for convenience sake to accept, the Committee to accept the statement of Mr Nyoka as Exhibit B.

CHAIRPERSON: I see we've got it, I personally haven't read it but is there any objections to those statements?

MR DUKADA: I have no objection, Mr Chairperson, but I mean only to convey to the Committee one profound aspect which concerns me.  Up to now I do not know which of the victims are opposing the application.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well perhaps Mr Mgidlana can tell us.  You mentioned that you were appearing for all the victims other than the victim for which Mr Stofile is appearing, namely Mr Matoti.  Are all your clients opposing on the basis that you've now mentioned or only some of them?  What is the position if you could just let us know?

MR MGIDLANA: It's all of them Chairperson.  Of course, it will be seen that for example you've got ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Are those all the persons mentioned in paragraph 12 like you mentioned yesterday save for (g), that is Nomonde Matoti?

MR MGIDLANA: Motati as well as - yes, as well as Dr Nonde who is deceased as also (a) is deceased.  Of course his wife is present and there are aspects that were mentioned yesterday of which she wants clarity on during the evidence of the applicant.  There are also those that are not listed in paragraph 12 but who were notified and they appear in the list of those of the victims which came from the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: And are they opposing it on the basis of full disclosure?

MR MGIDLANA: Of full disclosure, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR STOFILE: Chairperson, before you proceed?  Similarly Mrs Matoti opposes the application on the same basis.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Stofile.

MR LAX: Sorry, just before we continue.  These other names, we're not necessarily familiar with who they are.  The other parties that you say you act for, so it might be useful just to place them on record now so we've got a complete picture.

MR MGIDLANA: In the list of the victims over and above the persons listed in paragraph 12 there's also Sonwabo Ndekela.  Sonwabo is S-O-N-W-A-B-O, Ndekela is N-D-E-K-E-L-A.
There's also Max Jafta.  There's also Ndzamena, N-D-Z-A-M-E-N-A.  There's also Xolani Ntshikilana, X-O-L-A-N-I, N-T-S-H-I-K-I-L-A-N-A.   That's all of them when one reconciles the list on paragraph 12.

MR LAX: Thank you.  That's just helpful for them as well as for us.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you.  You may proceed now.

MR MAPOMA: I'm sorry once again Chairperson, before you proceed?  Chairperson, the affidavits which were handed in by the applicant to the Committee in Cape Town, I have compiled them into one small bundle and I would like the Committee to accept this small bundle as well as Exhibit C?

CHAIRPERSON: So for record purposes Exhibit B is the statement of Mr Manelisi Nyoka and Exhibit C, is this the - there's series of four affidavits which we'll call C, the top one being C1, C2, C3, C4.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Mr Mgidlana?

MR MGIDLANA: Mr Siqhola, the question that I'd asked you was did you know as to why Nyoka had been arrested?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I can't remember.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you know why Jizana was arrested?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I don't know how to answer that question.  I know they were arrested but I cannot say one by one why they were arrested but I know that it was politically motivated, the arrest was politically motivated, all of the people that I mentioned.

MR MGIDLANA: The problem that I have with that is that if you don't know why a particular person had been arrested what sort of information would you then be seeking from that person?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: These people were not arrested in 1986 and then interrogated in the year 2000.  They were arrested in 1986 and interrogated in 1986 so I can't remember now the reason why they were arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that at the time of interrogation you knew why they were arrested but you can't recall that detail now?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed Mr Mgidlana, just before it slips my mind, I'd just like to ask Mr Siqhola something?
	Mr Siqhola, we've been given some further names by Mr Mgidlana as to people he is representing here, namely Sonwabo Ndekela, Max Jaftha, Ndzamena and Xolani Ntshikilana -excuse me if I haven't pronounced that correctly.  With the mentioning of those names do you recall those people at all, are any of those names familiar to you?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes I remember Sonwabo Ndekela, Max Jaftha, Ndzamena, Xolani Ntshikilana but I was also going to explain to the Commission about them if I'm given the chance.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well maybe Mr Mgidlana will get to that but I just wanted to find out whether those names were familiar to you.  Mr Mgidlana?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes I know those people.