Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1996-04-17

MR NTSEBEZA: Who are they?
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MRS ZOKWE: It's Tjani and Kumengu.

MR NTSEBEZA: Were they arrested?

MRS ZOKWE: Yes they were arrested.

MR NTSEBEZA: What happened thereafter?

MRS ZOKWE: Something happened, some mystery Happened while they were in prison.  We were given an assurance that they will never be released.  They will never be bailed out. Not long thereafter, the policemen from my family Lieutenant Zokwe has never set a foot at my house, I only saw him through the window walking outside and he just sent a child into the shop to call me.  This person never washed his hands.  Well he didn't want to come closer. I went to see him and I greeted him and he said, "I'm here to tell you that the police have escaped".

MR NTSEBEZA: Are you referring to the two policemen who were to be charged?  The policemen who killed Sithembile?

MRS ZOKWE: Yes my son came to tell me that the police have escaped from the cells.  I cried and he repeated this time and time again, and I said to him, "Thankyou very much.   There is one thing that you didn't do, you buried this child but you never washed your hands, what you should do is to take a dish and wash your hands".

MR NTSEBEZA: What did he say?

MRS ZOKWE: He said, "The police escaped". And I asked him, "what did Holomisa say?"  Holomisa was now in charge. The investigative officer who was in charge was killed, then this was taken by Holomisa and his government. He was now laughing at me.  Who was Holomisa after all to be involved in such difficult cases?

MR NTSEBEZA: Who is this Kumengu actually?   On the day of the coup d'etat, the time Holomisa was taken off, was
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Kumengu one of those people?

MRS ZOKWE: Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: Kumengu was one of those people, the same Kumengu who killed your son?

MRS ZOKWE: Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: Where is he now?

MRS ZOKWE: He is still alive.

MR NTSEBEZA: Well did he resign from work after they were forgiven for the coup? What happened, did he confess to having taken part in killing your son?

MRS ZOKWE: No what happened, these are the two cases, two separate cases, a coup d'etat case and the killing of Sibusisu. These are two different cases.  He is still free.

MR NTSEBEZA: In other words you are here today to tell us or ask that maybe, if you can express your heartfelt feelings to this Commission, when should this really stop, this thing of killing people and then going free?  Would you like the Commission to do something about that?
 I will not ask any further questions from this witness, I will call the grand daughter after lunch.  Thank you Mama.

PANEL MEMBER: Thank you Mrs Zokwe, where is Tjani, you mentioned two people, Tjani and Kumengu.

MRS ZOKWE: I'm not quite sure what happened to Tjani, but Commission, I'd like to mention that Tjani was also detained, but I do not know what happened thereafter?

PANEL MEMBER: Thank you.

DESMOND MPILO TUTU: Thank you very much.  We have nothing to say further.  We cannot express oh but a thousand ...(indistinct) to tell the pain that is being born by you as a family.  Let us stand.  We'll be coming back at two.
(end of side A of tape 13).
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(Side B starts but no record of swearing in of witness)

DR BORAINE: Mr Nsebeza, will guide you through your story of what happened on that fateful day, thank you.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mandi are you going to speak English or Xhosa?  You must be very slow and your relaxed. The interpreters were complaining that your mum was very fast.  They tried their best but they couldn't.  The other thing is that she was speaking in a difficult tense.  Now Mandi I am really trying, I want to find out. Can you remember that day.  I would like your heart to be very quiet, your mother has already said everything that I think should really be heard by this Commission, your's is just to explain. Can you please explain the arrival of these people on that day?  You have already indicated that you are a grandchild to Mrs Zokwe.

MS MANDI ZOKWE: Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: You are from Namakwe, are you staying there at this moment?

MS MANDI ZOKWE: Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: It was on a Monday, is that so?

MS MANDI ZOKWE: Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: While you were sitting? If I am mistaken you must tell me that I am.  You were peeping through a window and you saw two cars, one of those cars was a Cressida and the other one was a Sierra?  You didn't see the number plates, is that so?

MS MANDI ZOKWE: Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: This Cressida was from Ncobo area, XB. Is Sithembile your uncle? Did you see him on that day?

MS MANDI ZOKWE: Yes I saw him.  Yes he came out of one of those cars. He was handcuffed with his hands at the back.
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Two policemen, there were many, but two of them escorted him into the house.  They were carrying rifles, all of them, and they were ready to start shooting any time.

MR NTSEBEZA: Can you remember how many were there.

MS MANDI ZOKWE: The time I saw them there were four, but every time they would come in numbers.

MR NTSEBEZA: You say they were armed, heavily armed?

MS MANDI ZOKWE: Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: If you say he was handcuffed at the back, can you demonstrate to this house how he was handcuffed?

MS MANDI ZOKWE: Yes it was right at the back.

MR NTSEBEZA: They went into the house, where were you at that time?

MS MANDI ZOKWE: I was at the shop peeping through the window.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did they go into the house?

MS MANDI ZOKWE: Yes they went into the house, people in the shop went outside.  I was alone in the shop.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did they buy the things they wanted to buy or were they going outside to have a look?

MS MANDI ZOKWE: No they went outside because they realised the police were heavily armed, so they went to see what was happening.  They went out and left me alone.  But I didn't go out, I was used to the police, I wasn't even scared of them because they would come every time they wanted to.  They are killers, they are dogs.  I'm saying this because we used to call them by that name and I'm still using the name, dogs.
 Well I went out of the shop and I heard a gun shot.  I tried to lock the house but the second shot went off.  There were policemen outside, guarding the house.  They were 
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ready.  At the time of the gunshot, they were looking around.  They thought he would come out running so that they can shoot him instantly.  Well I left the shop and I locked it, and I went to the next door neighbours, no people were there.  Well I waited there, gunshots went on and on and on.  It wasn't only a single gunshot, it was a series of them. It sounded like a machine gun, but they didn't want anyone to come nearer to the yard.
 I'm not going to say granny, I call my grandmum Pepi.  During that time Pepi was not at home.  There were younger children at home.

MR NTSEBEZA: Did these people say anything to you?

MS MANDI ZOKWE: No they were not talking to anybody.

MR NTSEBEZA: Do you remember the time?