Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-02-01

PUMELELE GUMENGU: When you put in a key in the door, maybe a booby-trap would work but it is also possible for you to put the key and then open the door and then the booby-trap would catch up on you, but it depends on the person who was putting those booby-traps.  And secondly, a person who would be inside, it depends on when he wants to shoot, when you put in the key or when you open the door.  So it will all depend on the person who was planning all this.  We had to be careful so that we cannot be involved.
	When you are from the office or when you are at work, you had to guarantee that you come back alive and the person or the target or the victim's life would depend on the circumstances.  So we had to be safe all the time.  Even if the booby-trap had worked when the key was put in or when the door was opened, he had to be the one to be caught by the booby-trap.

MR MNQANDI: Okay.  My instructions are that the door in question was not even locked on the day in question.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I would not agree with that because he took out the key, whether he took it out from the pocket or on top of the door, but he took out the key to open the door and he used the key to open that door.  So if you put in a key you can hear that that person is putting in a key in the door.  The fact that the door was not locked is not true.

MR MNQANDI: In fact my instructions are that the deceased at the time was not even staying at his homestead, ...(indistinct) that there was someone else using the room.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Whatever happened, the fact is he wanted to show us where the handgrenades were and that was his homestead, so I can't dispute the fact that he was not staying there but at that time he said that he had kept the grenades there.  So even if he was not sleeping at his home, he would have kept the grenades there.

MR MNQANDI: Can you dispute the fact that that room was not locked?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, I do dispute that.

MR MNQANDI: Did you in fact before you came into the room, check if it was locked?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: When I was in the passage I asked him whether this room was locked or not, he said it was locked.  I asked where the key was, he then pointed where the key was, of which I can't remember where but it was not far from where we were because he did not move from the position that he was in.  I asked him to open the door, so there was this problem of the handcuffs and I had to remove the handcuffs and he got a chance to go inside the house alone.

MR MNQANDI: The door next to which you were standing, was it in a passageway or was it a door that was standing on its own?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Which door?

MR MNQANDI: The door that the deceased was opening.

MR MALAN: Sorry, it seems as if there's some trouble with his microphone.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Interpreter, just ask if there's a problem.  Alright, the problem seems to be solved.  Yes, Mr Mnqandi.

MR MNQANDI: I say the door which was being opened by the deceased, was it a door that was standing on its own or was it in a passageway?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: When you go in that house, we went in through the kitchen door and we went in with the passage, in the passage, there was a door on the right-hand side but he did not open that door, he opened the door on the left-hand side and if you look through the window, there was a tank in that side of that room opposite the window.  There was another door on the right-hand side, but it was not the one he opened, he opened the door on the left-hand side.

MR MNQANDI: Yes, the door on the right, was it directly opposite the door that you were entering, or the deceased was opening?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It was not directly opposite but it was on the side, but not directly opposite but there was a small gap.

MR MNQANDI: When the deceased opened the door for the second time, when you alleged that he was handling this handgrenade, how far from the door were you standing?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I was standing next to the door because when he closed the door from inside, I went back and then I spoke with him and then he opened at that time.  I was standing towards the wall that was facing with him, I was looking in the direction of his door and there was another door next to me.

MR MNQANDI: How much elapsed between the time that he closed the door and the time that he reopened it?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It was not that much, I think it was a minute or two minutes because all that thing happened quickly.  It happened quickly.

MR MNQANDI: And how was the visibility during this time?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I could not see my colleague in the passage, it was dark but I could see him because of that window that was opposite that tank but he could not see me, but I could see him, he was still trying to locate where we were in the passage.  But at that time I was able to see him, that he had a handgrenade because of that window.  That is why I called out saying "grenade!" and then I went, I dived through the side of the kitchen and I heard a gunshot from my colleague and after that I heard the explosion of the handgrenade.

MR MNQANDI: You don't know where your colleague was at the time?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: The last time I saw him was when we were going in, he was on my back, behind me, but he told me that he went on the other side, on my right side.  When I was calling out, saying "grenade!", he had seen that grenade and he was in the right view.  It was dark in the passage and I was trying to talk with this man who was inside.
	I concentrated on that so that he can open the door, so that we can do the job and then go out.  So he surprised us and did what he did.  And when my colleague told me that he had passed me whilst I was still negotiating, he went to the right side, I didn't dispute what he said.

MR MNQANDI: And at the time that he fired the first shot, was he back to the position you were in or did he fire from the position that he was standing in?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: ...(no English interpretation)

MR MNQANDI: Your colleague.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: The position that he was standing in when he was shooting I did not see him, but he told me where he was because immediately when I was shouting out saying "grenade!", trying to warn him to take a cover, I took cover.  So I was on the left side where we went in the kitchen side.  So I heard afterwards from him where he was, in which position he was, but I did not see him.

JUDGE MILLER: Did the door of the room open into the passage or into the bedroom?  If you opened the door, did it swing into the passage or did it swing into the bedroom?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Inside the room.

MR MNQANDI: What I would like to find out from you, after you had taken cover was your colleague, or did he move from where he was standing, to face the door of the room where the deceased was?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: When I called out "grenade!", I think he would be the one who is going to explain which position he was because I was sure that I had a backup, he was my backup, because the last time I saw him was when we were going inside, he was on the left-hand side.  But I did not see him when he was passing me, so I would like you to ask him that question so that he could be the one who can explain, because I did not see him when he was changing positions.

MR MNQANDI: My instructions are that unless the shots were fired from a position which is directly opposite the door, there could be no way that from any other position in the passage that one would be able to hit the deceased when he was inside the house.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Maybe, for sure when he was shooting he was standing opposite the door, that is true, maybe he was standing in front of the door.

MR MNQANDI: This is exactly what I find to be strange, that you had shouted to him to take cover because you had seen a grenade and at that instance he would just go opposite the door to be in a position to shoot at the deceased.