Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-05

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: According to the information that they put to us, they had quarrelled with certain people in the town, whom they referred to as members of the AWB.
	The same people, are the people who are locating these arms from the sea and who were having these meetings with certain white people, whom they were not aware of.  So, according to them, the same thing was happening at that Gomolo, the same people there at the town would link, would go to further their plans, that is meeting there at that sea, at that coast.
	And also there was a certain report that there was a meeting which was destabilised by the white people there, there was a launch of the Communist Party just before the end of 1992, where white people came there and caused a ruckus there, they destabilised everything there.
	So, they were operating under threat, that is the reason they reported that to the sub-region.  Now as sub-regional SDU's now, we told them to go and investigate that, so that they may come with a concrete evidence around that, but it was at the time, it was during that assignment that comrade Chris Hani was assassinated.  And then we decided to go to Port St Johns on those basis, that - on that information.

MR SMUTS: Do I understand correctly that your answer to the Chairman's question about how these counter-revolutionaries interfered with your struggle, consists of a report that there had been a quarrel with some of these people at Port St Johns and that in 1992, during the launch of the Communist Party in the area, a meeting had been disrupted.  Is that your evidence?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, that quarrel was - they intervened as the ANC Youth League on the basis that those people were at loggerheads with the workers, because some of them are the businessmen there at Port St Johns, those white people.
	So, that quarrel emanated from that question of addressing the question of workers who were, who felt that they were exploited by those people.  And then when they intervened as ANC because the workers would appeal to them, when they intervened there as the ANC, they would quarrel with the owners and at that time, they had also heard the information that that person was an AWB member. 
	So, that threatened the comrades, that is the reason that the comrades decided to report this to the ANC Youth League sub-region, because they were there to operate freely.  Now these threats now would cause them to feel threatened.

MR SMUTS: But do you confirm that to the extent that there was a disruption of your struggle, it was because of this quarrel regarding employment practices on the one hand, and the 1992 disruption of the launch of the Communist Party?  Is that your evidence?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How often was the interference with the Unionism?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: I am not sure, but to me it seems as if it was not, maybe twice.  Whenever there is a problem there, they would intervene.
	I am not sure as to how many times.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, what gives me a problem and I must offer you the opportunity to deal with it, is that you are not giving us evidence such that we gain the impression that these infiltrators were doing certain things to such a level and so frequently, that it required the attention of the SDU's in whatever form.

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I need to  hear from you whether I am correct or not.

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, you are correct.  That is the reason they reported this to the sub-region, because they wanted us to do something.   Not merely to kill them, but as I have said earlier on, the way SDU's operated, was to transform, merely to transmit the detrimental information to the upper structures of the ANC and MK.

CHAIRPERSON: And then, did your action, your plan action, that these drastic form as a result of Mr Hani's assassination?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, the fact that Chris Hani was killed by a white person, that really caused us to go and pursue such an act.

CHAIRPERSON: And the infiltrators or those who were perceived to be the infiltrators, conveniently became the targets?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Because I think the people who, a person who is judged as a person who is infiltrating or who is a counter-revolutionary, would in other way round link with any conspiracy which could lead to the killing of a person like comrade Chris Hani who is a revolutionary.

MR SMUTS: Let's accept your earlier evidence that to this very day, you do not know whether the evidence of rightwing or the information regarding a counter-revolutionary infiltration, has been confirmed.  That is your position, is it not?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Can you please repeat the question?

MR SMUTS: Your evidence earlier was that ...

CHAIRPERSON: He has given that evidence.

MR SMUTS: What efforts were made, if any, to identify who it was that had gone from the bungalow in question on the trip, be it a fishing trip or otherwise, before you decided to launch the ambush?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Who?

MR SMUTS: The identity, what efforts did you make to establish the identity of the people who would be travelling in the vehicle along the road, before you decided to ambush them?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Okay.  As I have said earlier on that to us that area was perceived as the area which was used as the springboard.  Now any white person who would be around that area, at that time, would be a target and secondly, that is a remote area.  There is no up and down of cars there as I initially thought.
	That made us to be sure that any car that could come that direction, would be the one that we were waiting for.  And secondly, that is the reason that we said to Nyalukana, he should indicate, he should confirm with a car hoot, that this is the car with these white occupants and I, myself, also confirmed because I saw these people, these white people before I pulled the trigger.

MR SMUTS: You saw that they were white people?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: What did he have to confirm, that the faces are white or - so that you wouldn't accidentally shoot black people, or did he know the people travelling in the car?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No.  I did not know.

ADV DE JAGER: And he who had to confirm, did he only have to confirm that listen, there are whites coming, it is not black people coming?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: That was what he was going to confirm.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you find it necessary to verify before you put this plan into effect, the accuracy of your information?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Can you repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not find it necessary before you proceeded with your operation, to verify the accuracy of this information that you had about these people who had gone on this trip?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Because of the time, and because we wanted to carry out this operation at that time, to us that would seem as if it was a sort of a delay.  So, to us it was not that much necessary to really pursue with the investigation and come up with the concrete information.
	We relied on the information that we got from the local comrades of that area.  We trusted them.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but that information Mr Maxhayi, was unconfirmed?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, I agree but that does not necessarily mean that we denied what they were saying.  We didn't prove them as liars, but what we wanted for them is to go and come up with a concrete evidence, which we would as the organisation sub-region, be in a position to submit to our upper echelons.

ADV SANDI: Did you think about, sorry Mr Smuts, did you think about reporting the presence of these strange and some sort of unwelcome people in the area, to report their presence to the government that was in charge of the Transkei at the time?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No, I don't know whether they reported this to the government.

ADV SANDI: Did you as the leader of this group, think it was necessary to do so?