Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-02

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: To lie at the Court is - at the Court I tried to minimize my own guilt so that the Court could find me not guitly.  I tried at the Court not expose Tjabane although his name was raised as the person who sent us but the police could not go and arrest him just like that without us being State Witnesses against him.  That's what I lied about, trying to dub the situation of him being mentioned during the trial.  That is the policy of our soldiers, that if you are arrested you must not tell about others, you must face the music alone.
	That's why other soldiers when they are in trouble, noting that they are going to be arrested and having been injured, they must rather kill themselves than to stay on and be arrested and be tortured.  They're more likely to sing when the are arrested and tortured, better to kill themselves.

MS COLLETT: Now you made a statement to the police, is that correct?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Is that statement true?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: No, it was not true.

MS COLLETT: But you made that statement, that statement was admitted as evidence against you in your trial in East London, is that correct?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Now you made certain allegations about your co-applicant in that statement and in the trial, were all those allegations true?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: Which accusations?

MS COLLETT: Well you probably heard your co-applicant being questioned about being involved in the shooting at the Bahai Church, when he said that he was not involved he was actually at the door.  Is that true for example?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: At the church in Mdantsane?

MS COLLETT: That's right.

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: It is true that he was at the door at the church in Mdantsane.

MS COLLETT: Now you were convicted in the East London Court and sentenced to 16 years imprisonment, is that correct?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Now when did you for the first time decide to apply for amnesty?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: There were people who arrived in prison.  We were called by Mr Killian because he knew that we were members of APLA and other members of MK.  I cannot remember when it was but he called us and told us that there is a Truth Commission and there are forms that have arrived that we must fill so that we can go and appear there and ask for forgiveness for those things we did.  Indeed MK people filled them in.
	We ourselves phoned Patricia de Lille and told her that these forms arrived here, what must we do and she said: "Africa, don't fill those forms in, I'll tell you when to fill those forms in".  Indeed we did not fill those forms in until she indeed told us that we must fill those forms in because there are lawyers who have been tasked by the PAC.  For example here in East London it's Mr Ntonga and Mbandazayo, they're going to get there and advise you how to fill them in, those forms that is.

MS COLLETT: And did that happen?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: No, Mr Ntonga and Mbandazayo never arrived, instead when we phoned their secretary, said they are at Goedemoede, P.E. and other prisons but they had not gone to them, to us, the closest prison to them.

MS COLLETT: Yes, and did somebody come to assist you to fill in those forms?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: Yes, an attorny called Mr Mbanja coming from King William's Town came and helped us fill those forms.

MS COLLETT: Now how did you fill in those forms?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: We filled those forms, lying sometimes because we were told that we must implicate people who are alive we must rather implicate those who are deceased like Africa Sabelo Pama and those Africans we had been moving with during those attacks.  The one who told us that is Jimmy Jones and Africa Mbandazayo and Africa Baieti.

MS COLLETT: Is that prior to you filling in these forms?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: We were told about this before Patricia de Lille told us to fill these forms in as she had told us to stop and wait until she had told, after they had investigated certain things.

MS COLLETT: Why did you agree to lie on these forms?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: The reason why we agreed is because they said it will be easier for us to be released by the TRC if we used people's names who are deceased already.

MS COLLETT: And is that why you agreed to do this?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Now, why did you submit a subsequent amnesty affidavit in this matter?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: It was because we then later noted that what our Africans had told us was not true, clearly they were selling us out know.  For example when we made those amensty applicantions by Mr Mbanja from King William's Town he said we must make application for the Bahai Church attack because it was still on trial and we did not do so.
	But what happened, when we saw Ntonga and Jimmy Jones, that they want to sell us out - we were still going to the lower Court in Mdantsane being represented by Mr Ntonga as he's an attorney working for the PAC. One day as we were in prison we were called as people 	were being visited and we met a lady and a gentleman saying they are coming from the Legal Aid Board at Mdantsane and we asked them: "What is the problem"? and they said they want to provide us with an attorney for the case we are going to appear for at the Supreme Court and I said: "No, Sisi, who told you we do not have an attorney because if you are saying you are coming from Mdantsane, at the Legal Aid Board at Mdantsane you are supposed to know that our attorney is Mr Ntonga".   
 	We then realised, okay these ladies cannot just come here, there is something Mr Ntonga has said to them perhaps he had told that - maybe he's not representing us anymore.  Clearly these people are coming from East London and when they come from the Courts at East London they must know that we are being represented by Mr Ntonga.  And then we realised that he has something wrong with him.  
	It did not stop there, Mr Mbandazayo came there very hurriedly.  After we had eaten our supper at about three they were about to close there and he said: "Africa let us make applications for the Bahai attack because we had not done so", we said: "Okay".  He called me, Mxzesiko, Dumisani Ncamazana, Oupa Jlomo and another Africa, I cannot remember his name.  He called us hurriedly so.  He talked in his cellular phone and said: "Wait for these people, I'm coming right now", and he said to us: "Africans I'm in  a rush, please sign here.  I know this case, I'm going to fill everything else in at my office".   
	We though okay, the African knows this case.  For that matter we had been represented by him in the beginning when we were sentenced.  He left.  I then realised there is something I do not understand with this African.  Some day another African said: "This case of Bisho we must not go on trial, we must simply go to the Truth Commission, there is no reason to go on trial with this case".  We saw it the same way, it did not make any problem.
	We had no attorney for some time, until we were represented by Sally Corlett and she said she can represent us in Court, okay.  We gave her what we were going to say in Court.  Another Africa came, Mbandazayo.  He had seen in the newspapers that we were going to be represented by Sally Corlett in Court and he asked them: "How can you ask to be representated by a white person while you know that we around Africans".  For that matter I have told you that you must not go on trial with this case".  
	We responded by saying: "Africa, you told us we must sign those forms without us having filled them in and we realised later that you said, we realised later ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Sorry can the person ...[intervention]