Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

GEORGE BIZOS: I have enough for my - for our purposes in relation to that and I will leave it there, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: May I just have one moment?  I just want a document found.
	Was there a hosepipe in the room in which you intended to interrogate Mr Biko?

MR SNYMAN: That is possible, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there such a hosepipe or wasn't it?

MR SNYMAN: I did not see it, but it is possible.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you never such a hosepipe there?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is that the room that you usually interrogated people in?

MR SNYMAN: At that time, your Honour, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was that the room in which Mr Jones was interrogated?

MR SNYMAN: He was also interrogated in that room, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ever take any part in the interrogation of Mr Jones?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you know whether a hosepipe was used on him?

MR SNYMAN: No, I do not know, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: If anyone said that he hit Mr Biko with a hosepipe and he was hit with a hosepipe on a number of occasions during the course of the interrogation ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about Mr Jones or Mr Biko?

GEORGE BIZOS: No, he says Mr Biko, Mr Chairman.  Page 41 of the papers before you.  Would that be wrong?

MR SNYMAN: It is possible that it might have occurred, your Honour, but I did not pertinently notice it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please raise your head so that we can all see you saying that somebody may have been beaten in that room with a hosepipe, but that you did not see it.

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour, I did not see it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why?  Is the room so large or were there screens behind which beatings with a hosepipe were done?

MR SNYMAN: It is possible that it might have been there and that it might have been used in the scuffle to restrain him, but I did not
notice.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you were there.

MR SNYMAN: It is correct.  I had been there, but I did not see it.

GEORGE BIZOS: The presence of an instrument of torture such as a hosepipe in an interrogation room;  how can the person in charge of the interrogation, miss it?

MR SNYMAN: I did not see it, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: How could you have missed it?

MR SNYMAN: I simply did not see it, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: You've told us that.  Try and explain how you could have missed it?

MR SNYMAN: I did not see it.  How am I to explain that?

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you agree that hitting the human flesh with a hosepipe or a sjambok usually leaves marks which are described as tramlines?

MR SNYMAN: That is the case, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm just trying to find the passage which I remember having been used in the document, but I want to put it specifically.  I'm relying on memory.  If I may just have a moment whilst the passage is identified, Mr Chairman?
	You say that if it was used, it must have been used during the course of the scuffle?

MR SNYMAN: I would deduce that, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Isn't it a strange way to try and restrain a person when there are four able-bodied policemen and one detainee?  Isn't hitting him with a hosepipe a strange way of trying to get him under control?

MR SNYMAN: It would have been irregular.

GEORGE BIZOS: It could only be a punishment and not an attempt to restrain him?

MR SNYMAN: That is possible, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: You know, anything is possible.  The Committee is interested in you telling them all the facts.
	I'm going to ask you;  if indeed there is evidence by way of admission or by way of medical evidence that a hosepipe was used on Mr Biko, will you agree that this was not for any purpose that you have spoken of up to now, but for the purpose of punishing him or to use an even worse word, to torture him?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, what would it have been used for?

MR SNYMAN: Had it been used, it would probably have been to torture him.

GEORGE BIZOS: And was that within the policy of the National Party or the security police in 1977?

MR SNYMAN: Irregularities did occur;  that I would admit.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, I'm asking you whether torture was advised either
by the security police or the National Party Government in 1977?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, yes, the country was in a state of chaos, factually in a state of war.  Probably methods were use that were not authorised.

GEORGE BIZOS: Listen to the question please.  Was it the policy of either the National Party or the security police to use torture in 1977?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, your Honour.  (Laughter/Applause).

GEORGE BIZOS: Can you name one politician who publicly said that torture was an instrument within the policy of the National Party?

UNKNOWN: M'Lord, with respect, the question - the answer was given in reply to a double-barrelled question;  the security police and the National Party.  He didn't qualify his answer and so perhaps before we get to politicians admitting something like that, as unlikely as it may be, perhaps my learned friend could just rectify that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: I intend asking the question again and separating them.  I have not preferences, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Can you name any National Party politician who said that torture was a means to be used as a matter of policy?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Can you tell us any person in the security police who said that torture was to be used as a mode of achieving any objective?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, instructions had been given to break down the resistance of people.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, but I told you how.  You don't let them sleep, but did anybody say that one of the ways in which you must break them is you must take hosepipes and beat them up? Did anybody say that?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Not even Col Goosen?

MR SNYMAN: (No audible reply).

GEORGE BIZOS: Is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: So this, if it did happen, was on your own initiative or the initiative of the people who were interrogating Mr Biko?

MR SNYMAN: That might be the case, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: That includes you?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why do you want to dissociate yourself from the piece of hosepipe that was apparently in the room in which you have habitually interrogated people and which was there when Mr Biko was to be ... (intervention).

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, it's not an objection.  I am informed
by my attorney that there might have been a translation error and "torture" has been translated as "ondervra" - "questioned" into the Afrikaans.  
	So that of course would - that's what I'm told by my attorney.  In other words, he is listening to the microphones to the Afrikaans translation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you understand my questions in the English.  You know what torture means.  (Laughter).

CHAIRPERSON: Please.

GEORGE BIZOS: You know what torture means?

MR SNYMAN: I know the meaning of the word.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you understood it when I used it a couple of times? Must we start again from the beginning?

MR SNYMAN: I did hear your words.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you.  As I promised, Mr Chairman, I refer to the document, Exhibit B, on page 3, paragraph 2.2.6.
I will read it out. Photos numbers 5 and 6, diapositive numbers 2 and 9 -
"On the posterior aspect of the left buttock, there is a 5 centimetre and 6 millimetre broad old scar of tramline appearance.  On incision shows no vital reaction."
Now, either on your old version or in your new version, can you please explain to us in view of what you have told us up to now,  how there is a scar of tramline appearance, 5 centimetres long and 6 millimetres broad?  Can you explain that?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.