Amnesty Hearings — Richards Bay — 1998-04-23

MR STEWART: Now Mr Dlamini it has been mentioned in evidence by other applicants and indeed it is mentioned at times in your application that there were from time to time meetings to discuss what operations would then be conducted. Is that right?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: Were you generally part of those meetings, part of those discussions or what role did you play there?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I would not be part of the meeting but Bene and Romeo were people who were often present at those meetings. I was not present in the meetings that were conducted.

MR STEWART: Why were you generally not present?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: As a person who was still new at Esikoweni I did not want to get myself so much involved with the meetings that were going on. I just had to guard cars outside.

MR STEWART: And did you also have to guard the meetings?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: Were you known to the people of Esikoweni by your real name, the name you have given here? Or were you known by some other name?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: No they do not know me.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) were you known by when you were in Esikoweni?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I was Sipho Zondi.

MR STEWART: Now Mr Dlamini I am going to take you through the various incidents which you have been involved in and I am starting with the incident on page 392 paragraph 40. And this was an incident at Paul's shebeen. Do you remember that?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes I do remember that.

MR STEWART: In your own words will you tell the committee briefly about what happened at that incident?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Even though I am not quite familiar with the sections at Esikoweni there are places such as Paul's shebeens which I didn't know, that is where the ANC used to drink. That is where they used to entertain themselves. The meetings that people like Nthena and Romeo used to hold included discussing such things as identifying these places where they were drinking. And indeed we followed that instruction. We left Mrs Mbuyazi's place going to Paul's shebeen. I cannot remember exactly when it was but we did go. And when we arrived there were people sitting outside drinking alcohol and some were inside the house. And we sneaked into the house, into the yard and everybody who was in the homestead and in the house were shot.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) fire shots on that occasion Mr Dlamini?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes I did shoot.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) at that time?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Although I cannot remember correctly I did have a gun. I cannot remember the specific type of weapon it was.

MR STEWART: You say in your application that "we" you use the word "we" planned this. When you use that word who are you including in that "we" who planned it? Who planned that attack? Was it just the people who were involved in it or was also some of the local leadership?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I will explain it in this way. Mrs Mbuyazi and the rest knew about our activities and they knew the places that we were supposed to attack. Nthena and others also knew these places. So I think that what activities we conducted were planned in those meetings where Mrs Mbuyazi and other leaders would be present.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) leader of your group?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Just Mkhize.

MR STEWART: And from what people did he accept instructions as to what you must do?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Nthena received instructions from Mrs Mbuyazi as well as Mr Pipi Biyela. Those are the people I still remember.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) know how many people were killed and injured in that attack on Paul's shebeen?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: No I don't remember.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) those people who were killed or injured?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: As I have explained before I didn't know anybody at Esikoweni.

MR STEWART: Now Mr Dlamini I will take you to the next incident. Paragraph 42 on page 393. This involves a random attack in J1 section. Do you remember this incident?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes I do.

MR STEWART: Tell the committee briefly about it?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: At Esikoweni the IFP was in the minority and they did not move freely around the area. You could not move freely if you were an IFP member in Esikoweni but the ANC moved around freely. It was decided in one of the meetings that the ANC should also not be able to move freely around the area. Such that we should just go and attack at random in ANC dominated areas. In sections like J1 we should just go attack anybody that we met in the streets. It didn't matter who he was but if he was in ANC dominated area then he was an ANC member. It was then decided that they should be attacked. If you met somebody on the streets say at night seven, eight p.m. you would just shoot them.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) were there many such attacks over the course of time you worked at Esikoweni?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes it happened on quite several occasions.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) remember each of these occasions with any real clarity?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I would not be able to remember all of them. But it happened quite often.

MR STEWART: Now Mr Dlamini is it right that in your application you have tried to remember as much as you can but if there are things that you have forgotten and you are now reminded about them you are quite happy to talk about that?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes I would accept if something comes up here I would be able to talk about it.

MR STEWART: Is it your intention to hide anything here in these proceedings?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I don't intend hiding anything from the commission. I will tell the truth as I know it.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini I am moving to the next incident which is paragraph 43 on page 394. Mr Mkhize and Mr Mbambo have given evidence about this incident. It was retaliatory attack because of an attack that had been launched on a KwaZulu police foot patrol. Do you remember that?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes I remember.

MR STEWART: What did you do in this attack?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: In J1 it happened that KwaZulu police were patrolling one day and they were attacked with a hand grenade. One policeman died. Mr Mkhize was also present among these policemen. He was very angry about this. He went to Mrs Mbuyazi and told her that the ANC should not get away with such things. A meeting was held there. Romeo, myself, Israel Hlongwane were there and then we proceeded to J1. Mr Mkhize took a van and we got into the van and we all went to J1.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) a van, was that a KwaZulu police van?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is correct. We left from Mrs Mbuyazi's house and we were armed with an assortment of guns, G3's AK47's, shotguns and we were proceeding to J1. The van left us at J1 and then left. Anybody who was around the area or any house that had its lights on was attacked. We attacked several times and other people from a hostel in J1 returned fire when we did attack. If we saw a person on the street we would shoot him. If we saw a light on in a house we would shot at the house. We did this for ten or fifteen minutes and then we returned on foot to Mrs Mbuyazi's house. After that Nthena took the van to the police station, we were never arrested nor investigated for this. They just died a natural death.

MR STEWART: Do you know if any people were injured or killed in those attacks?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Chairperson I would not know for certain but I do think that some people died. Although I don't know how many or who did die in fact. But I do think that some people were injured.

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) take it that you don't know whether you personally killed or injured anyone in those attacks?