Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

CHAIRPERSON: We don't know here what you heard, not yet anyway.  Do you know of police complicity in Black Cats operations that you yourself saw?

MR ZWANE: Whatever I am going to relate is something that I experienced personally.

MR PATEL: Would you relate these experiences to the Committee?

MR ZWANE: During the 1990's as I've already pointed out there was a lot of violence in those areas.  We were being attacked and I was also personally attacked, my house was attacked by members of the Black Cats but luckily I was able to escape and evade the attack.
	The following day I got in touch with members of the ANC who were in higher positions.  I went to Johannesburg as well as Nelspruit and when I came back from Nelspruit I went straight to Steve Ngwenya's office here in Ermelo.
	I received a telephone call that Black Cats had arrived at my place and they were attacking my place.  They also had some petrol bombs.  I had left my kids but they were not specifically at my house but at the neighbour's place.  Now I realised that they were going to attack them because they were just nearby and I decided to go and check as to whether my children were safe or not.
	At Steve Ngwenya's office there was a certain man who had a car.  I asked him to take me and accompany me to my place.  We duly went into the residential area.  Even before we got to my place we came across a number of policemen who were forming a blockade.  They stopped our car and they arrested me there and then and I was taken.
	Before I was taken, may I please just explain as to who arrested me?  I was arrested by van Zwiel as well as Captain Botha.  The other policemen were playing a passive role or standing guard for me not to be able to escape.  I was taken into a private car.  That is where van Zwiel uttered the statement that as long as he is still alive and around in Ermelo we were not going to be able to carry out Mandela's instructions because it was just after Mandela had been released.  He said this is not Mandela's place and we were not going to do anything that Mandela wanted.  
	I was arrested and I was put in custody.  It was a corrugated iron type of a building.  There two policemen who were keeping guard over me.  I knew the one policeman but the other one was unknown to me, Mr Dlamini who is now late.
	I stayed with them from two up to six in the evening.  When I was arrested I could see that some houses were being burnt and some were being attacked.  As I was still inside the police cell the door was slightly ajar and I saw quite a number of guys or males who had an assortment of weapons and when I looked at them I could identify them as Black Cat members.
	I asked Dlamini and told them that: "Here are the people who had come to attack me earlier on", and I wanted him to ensure me as to my safety because they had just come in at random and I felt scared, but Mr Dlamini said he could not ensure as to my safety.  The only person who can tell me with regard to that is Captain Botha and Captain Botha was not present at that time.
	They kept on pointing at me and making signs that that evening they were going to kill me, as I'm indicating.  That shocked me, that kind of behaviour, that it could go on right inside the police cell.  They were quite free within the place.  They were busy asking for water, pacing up and down the place.  They were quite used to the place.  You could see that they were moving around freely.
	I remained there until round about 10 in the evening and at that time Captain Botha arrived and called me to a place where I was supposed to submit a statement.  That is where Captain Botha told me that he was releasing, I should go back home but because I knew that it wasn't safe to be released at that time of the night and I elected to remain in police custody.  I even pointed out to him that he could provide me with the safety that I needed.  He would release me that following day.  I gave him the instruction to keep me but he actually refused.
	He kept on telling me that I was the instigator of violence in the residential areas but I was scared of dying and he kept on pushing me to get out of the police station but there were two other white policemen who were inside there whose names I do not know.  At that stage these policemen took out their name tags and they pushed me outside the police station and they shut the door after me.
	In my mind it occurred that they probably had sent the Black Cats, they'd set them on me.  I tried to run but I realised that I could not outrun them from the police station to my place.  My best was to find a place to hide in the meantime.  I hope you know where the police station is, it's close to the post office.  There were still trees and shrubs at the post office and I went to hide myself in those shrubs.
	Within a few minutes of my having done so I saw a group of about six or seven who were approaching from the police station.  They had an assortment of weapons including pangas.  Some of them went around the corner, that is towards the United Building and others went straight down the road.  They were running.
	I realised that if I remained there they might probably get me when they come back.  I did have a suspicion that they were actually looking for me.  After they had disappeared I went right into the centre of town and I ran towards the Boland Bank, trying to find a place of refuge.  I got to the Holiday Inn and took the road that proceeds towards Ermelo next to Pine Spares Stores.
	There was a shop called: "Into Africa" just a short distance from the Holiday Inn.  I had a red jersey on and the area was well lit.  When I approached Pine Spares they saw me, that's when they blew their whistles alerting each other to the fact that they had seen me or they were seeing me.

INTERPRETER: Excuse me, the Interpreter did not hear that.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you repeat your last answer please.

MR ZWANE: When I approached Pine Spares, they were next to a certain shop called: "Into Africa" and when I saw them they alerted each other by whistling that I was approaching.  That is when I decided that I had to run for my life and I was able to outrun them because I was faster than them and I was able to get into the residential area before they could get me.
	That incident actually indicated to me that there was complicity as far as police were concerned.  The following day I realised that I was the only one who had not been attacked personally because quite a number of my colleagues had been attacked and injured and they were in hospitals.
	I decided to run away that very same day and I went away for a period of about three months.  After John had been, after John had gone out of the hospital I decided to go see him so that we could discuss this issue and report it to the ANC structures.
	We proceeded - can I go on?

MR PATEL: I think that that would be sufficient for that particular purpose.  Returning now to the offences concerned, could you just explain to the Committee what your motivation was behind committing the offences for which you claim amnesty?

MR ZWANE: What prompted me to take an active part is that we were not the only ones who got attacked.  At a stage we discovered that a number of people, that is community members as well as innocent people were becoming attacked.  Members of the ANC were being attacked, the ANC Youth League as well as the SACP and other members of the community who were innocent.  I could say that is the basis for what I did.

MR PATEL: What did you intend to do about these attacks or the violence, what was your intention with regard thereto?

MR ZWANE: With regard to the attacks launched upon us, we decided that we would get together with our adversaries and discuss the issues so that these attacks on citizens or innocent citizens should stop and life should go on like before.