Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1996-11-28

MARY BURTON: That's fine - is that - are you hearing me now, or hearing the translation.

MNR ODENDAL: Nou hoor ek u baie goed.

INTERPRETER: Now I can hear you very well.

MARY BURTON: Thank you,  you referred to the meeting of the 2nd  of March, which you attended at Wingfield and you mentioned the presence there of Lieutenant Liebenberg and Sergeant Bellingham.  Can you recall whether there were any other people there?

MNR ODENDAL: Kaptein Liebenberg was daar en Sersant Bellingham was teenwoordig gewees, so ver ek kan onthou.

INTERPRETER: Captain Liebenberg, Sergeant Bellingham were there - as far as I can remember.

MARY BURTON: And that was that the first meeting of that kind that you have attended, regarding this incident?

MNR ODENDAL: Dis korrek.

INTERPRETER: That is correct.

MARY BURTON: Thank you, then when you were at the scene, at which stage were reinforcements from Murder and Robbery called for?   Was that before or after the shooting?

MNR ODENDAL: Nee mnr die Voorsitter, daar was 'n beplanning gewees voor hierdie tyd, Moord en Roof se manne was die oggend toe  ons halfdrie  bymekaar gekom het vir die hoofbeplanning  om elkeen te se wat sy taak is, die stategetiese punte waar hy moet gaan staan, toe was  Moord en Roof teenwoordig.   Ek weet nie wie hulle gekontak het nie.

INTERPRETER: No,  madam Chair, Mr Chairman - I am sorry.  Planning was done beforehand and the people gathered half past two to do the main planning to decide where the strategic points were.  Where they should be deployed.  I do not know who had contacted these people.

MARY BURTON: Thank you, then you mentioned, when the hand-grenade was thrown, did you yourself see that it was a hand-grenade?

MNR ODENDAL: Die persoon het 'n beweging met sy hand gemaak en toe hy die hand op bring, nog voordat die handgranaat ontplof het, het ek uit my eie uit gese daar gaan 'n handgranaat.

INTERPRETER: The person made a movement with his hand and before the hand-grenade had exploded - I said a hand-grenade was going to be thrown.

MARY BURTON: So you thought that it would be a  hand-grenade and you instructed your people to take evasive actions.

MNR ODENDAL: Nee ek het nooit gese hulle moet aanval, ek het net vir die manne wat by my in die bosse geskuil het, gesit het, gese daar gooi hulle 'n handgranaat, daar word 'n handgranaat gegooi.

INTERPRETER: No, the people were hiding in the bushes, or rather, we were sitting and the bushes and warned them that a hand-grenade was being thrown.

MARY BURTON: I see, thank you chairperson.  I have no further questions.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela.

MS GOBODO: Thank you Chairperson.  Good afternoon to you.  According to your knowledge, are you aware of any involvement of Vlakplaas in the operation on the day - the 3rd  of March 1986?

MNR ODENDAL: Ek dra geen kennis van Vlakplaas-mense wat betrokke was.  Luitenant Liebenberg het vir my meegedeel hy was van die Veiligheidspolisie en Sersant Bellingham, ek het geen kennis gedra van Vlakplaas nie.  Vlakplaas manne het maar die laaste paar maande of jaar in die koerante verskyn.

INTERPRETER: I have no knowledge whatsoever of members from Vlakplaas being involved.  Lieutenant Liebenberg informed me that there were people from the Security Police, but I had no knowledge what so ever of people from Vlakplaas.  The Vlakplaas member, their names only appeared - these last few years in the papers.

MS GOBODO: Thank you - our investigators have established that the occurrence  book at the Guguletu police station - for March 1986 is missing.   Do you have any - yourself, do you have any records that you are aware of the Riot Squads that we can perhaps refer to?

MNR ODENDAL: Daar was destyds rekord gehou by die Onluste-eenheid -  [onduidelik] gehad dis korrek waar daar voorvalle aangeteken is van enige onlus-voorval.

INTERPRETER: Record was kept at the Riot Squad - they had a log book.  That is correct, in which incidents were documented - any incident.

MS GOBODO: Thank you -  just another question relating to my first question to you - are you aware, do you have any information about Askari's ever having been involved in the operation in Guguletu on 3rd  or March 1986?

MNR ODENDAL: Mnr die Voorsitter, ek het geen kennis daarvan gedra nie.

INTERPRETER: Mr Chairman, I have no knowledge whatsoever.

MS GOBODO: Thank you.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you ma'am.  Glenda Wildschut?

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Are you still referred to as Colonel or are you now called Mr Odendal?  It's - I am speaking.

MNR ODENDAL: Ja nee ek sien wie hier praat, u kan maar sommer se meneer.

INTERPRETER: I can see you speaking ja - you can call me Sir or Mr.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: I am a health worker by profession, so I don't really know very much about incendiary devices.  But could you give me an idea of what kind of damage could occur when somebody launches a hand-grenade - just from your experience - what can happen when somebody launches a hand-grenade?

MNR ODENDAL: Dit hang van die omstandighede af - dit hang hoe ver jy van die handgranaat af is, hulle het my met 'n handgranaat gegooi en ek was ernstig beseer in 1985.

INTERPRETER: It depends on the circumstances.  It depends on how far you are - they threw a hand-grenade at me in 1985 and I was seriously injured.

MNR ODENDAL: Maar as ek so in 'n kamer is en hulle gooi die handgranaat op die bed kan daai persoon gedood word - as jy 30 meter daarvandaan staan, dan kan jy miskien net 'n skrapnel wond op doen.

INTERPRETER: But if you are far, it can't do so much harm, but if you were near, it could harm you seriously.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: But that is in relation to a person being close to the  hand-grenade, but if it were to land on the ground or whatever, can you just describe what kind of damage there would be if a hand-grenade were to land?

MNR ODENDAL: Ek is nie 'n deskundige op die gebied nie, maar dit kan baie skade aanrig aan 'n persoon.  Dit hang van die posisie waar die persoon is, as hy gestaan het of gesit het of gele het.

INTERPRETER: I am not an expert, but it can do a lot of damage.  It depends on the position where the person is standing.  Is he lying, is he sitting.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: You mean the position of the person launching the grenade?

MNR ODENDAL: Nee die posisie van die persoon wat die handgranaat na gegooi word.

INTERPRETER: No, the position at whom the hand-grenade was thrown.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Okay - I am not interested in an individual now, I just would  like to get an idea of what the area would look like if a hand-grenade were to land in a particular area.  Can you give me some idea of  what it would look like?

<UNKNOWN>: If it would land here?

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Yes imagine a hand-grenade were to  land near that pillar, for example.

MNR ODENDAL: Daar sal 'n gat in die vloer wees - sement -  as dit sand is, sal daar 'n groot diep gat wees.

INTERPRETER: There would be a hole in the ground - there  would sometimes be a  deeper hole in the ground.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Yes, a very deep hole.

MNR ODENDAL: Dit sal 'n diep gat wees ja.

INTERPRETER: Yes a very deep hole.

MNR ODENDAL: Afhangende van die handgranaat tipe - handgranaat tipe.

INTERPRETER: Depending also on the type of hand-grenade.

MS GOBODO: What type of hand-grenade okay  I accept that and the pillar, what would happen to the pillar?

MNR ODENDAL: Dit kan die pilaar beskadig.

INTERPRETER: The pillar will be damaged.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Can you describe the kind of damage to that pillar.

MNR ODENDAL: Dis baie moeilik vir my om dit te beskryf want ek - soos ek se ek is nie 'n deskundige nie.  Ek het nog nie 'n handgranaat so naby gesien nie.

INTERPRETER: It's  very difficult for me to describe that.  I am not an expert - I have never seen an hand-grenade exploding so nearby.