Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

CHAIRPERSON: But isn't the point he is making Mr Phosa, that this was an additional risk that they were aware of.  This was not the general risk, here they knew who the man they believed was who intended to kill the policemen.

MR PHOSA: Can I put it differently Mr Chairman.  Wherever that  position arises, outside PE as well, somebody has got to be responsible for that, isn't it?  If there is a threat to Security Policemen, who by virtue of being Security Policemen, are a danger to the community, the community and some individuals are likely to be a danger to the police, isn't it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I don't understand the question properly.

MR PHOSA: No, what is being put to me in fairness to you of course, is that I should have considered that you are saying you knew the persons here according to information, who were constituting danger to the lives and property of the black Security Policemen, aren't you saying that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: And I am saying to you elsewhere, all over the country, there was somewhere or other some Security Policemen, black policemen, who was in that kind of danger from someone somewhere, elsewhere, isn't it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: And I then say in the nature of policing, whether Security Policemen or not, some or other police are in danger from some people or other, isn't it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: And I am saying to you then that it will be very, very inappropriate for the police to say when that kind of danger arises, the answer is elimination of the threat.  That is not appropriate international standards of policing, surely, are they?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I believe elimination itself is not the right standard.  But there were other factors contributing to this.

ADV DE JAGER: I think one could actually take the question further.  Is it not known that the police in the eyes of the liberation movements, were justified targets?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: So on the one hand one gets the situation that you were a legitimate target and on the other hand, you didn't have a target?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: And would you then say, you know better about these things, would you say the police in Ireland would legitimately be expected to eliminate the revolutionaries there, whoever they consider to be revolutionaries there in that country?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, Your Honour, I am not saying it is justified.

MR PHOSA: Now, to come back to the planning, the abduction.    You spoke to Mr Van Rensburg before you actually spoke to Mr Erasmus, isn't it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Did you personally start the discussion?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: That then means that before the ten days period or so, before the 14th, your discussions were before that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I would not like to tie myself to specific times, but it was over that period that I went and discussed the matter with him.

MR PHOSA: I may be unkind to you, but I was understanding that there is a general period  agreed upon amongst you, as being the time when discussions involving Mr Erasmus began?  In other words, about a week or so before the 14th, isn't that the case?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, sir.

MR PHOSA: Well, then I am asking you whether your discussions, yours, yours personally, with Mr Van Rensburg was before that period?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct sir, yes.

MR PHOSA: Was it on a one off occasion, one day perhaps or did you discuss it a few times between the two of you?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: We discussed it on a number of occasions.

MR PHOSA: Ultimately the two of you arrived at the conclusion that elimination was the answer?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that something had to be done and that elimination had to be kept in mind.

MR PHOSA: Now, I don't follow that.  Did you and Mr Van Rensburg come to the conclusion, the two of you, that elimination was necessary or did you not?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: You did?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR PHOSA: Then having agreed, what did you decide you should do about it, the two of you?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: At that stage we hadn't decided what we would do, we hadn't worked out any planning.

MR PHOSA: Yes, but you did not ignored that situation, you arrived at a conclusion it was the right thing, so what did you say you should do about it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I restate what I had said before, to eliminate them, to take them out, but we hadn't done specific planning regarding what had to be done.

MR PHOSA: Yes, then what did you go about it?  You didn't leave it at that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Well, thereafter we started to discuss the matter with General Erasmus.

CHAIRPERSON: So do I understand from what you have just told Mr Phosa, that the two of you had come to the decision that elimination was the answer and it was then that you went to discuss it with Colonel Erasmus?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I would say we considered it Your Honour.

ADV DE JAGER: You regarded that as an option?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is what I wanted to say.

MR PHOSA: Well, I don't follow that now.  Now, when you were discussing with Mr Van Rensburg, were you discussing all the possible options?  I am just trying to take your new answer now.  Were you discussing all the possible options of dealing with the problem?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: What problem?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: The problem in the black townships which I experienced.

MR PHOSA: No, no, no, were you not at that stage dealing with a specific problem, the problem of these two gentlemen, Mthimkhulu and Madaka, they were now being the problem?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: So, what exactly were the two of you discussing about them?  What options were you discussing about them?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Well, we discussed the options of detention, we discussed that, then restricting or gaining evidence to charge them, we considered all these matters.

MR PHOSA: And the two of you felt detention was out, for reasons you had, isn't it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: And charging them was out for reasons that you had, isn't that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: And the only option remaining as far as the two of you were concerned, was elimination?  The two of you were discussing and saying look man, it seems to us elimination is the answer?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, it sounds easy now to state it that way, but it came over a period that we discussed it.   Yes, but it was so.

MR PHOSA: I have been fair to you and accepted, I asked you actually, I suggested to you that it was before you went to Mr Erasmus, so I know it is over a period, I am talking about the ultimate stage before you went to him, you said well the answer really seems to be elimination?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Then having made that decision, did you then decide whether you should now go ahead with it, or should approach other people or what did you do?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: It was decided to go to General Erasmus  and to discuss it with him.

ADV SANDI: Mr Phosa, sorry Mr Phosa, can I ask you to correct me if I am wrong.  I gained the impression that what is happening now, you sort of asking the witness to restate what he has already stated in his evidence in chief.

MR PHOSA: I am cross-examining him, whether in the course of that I cause him to repeat, it may just be so.  I am doing only what is fair for which I was paid to come and do, otherwise I lose my brief.