Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-25

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was so but perhaps I could explain in this regard.  There were instances where it was the strategy of the people whom we detained for a long period in terms of the security strategy.  After they had been released they had to make this allegation because unfortunately their cohorts or fellow activists within the organisation would accuse them that they had been recruited by the security forces and that - and they had to make use of that opportunity after release to allege that they had been assaulted or ill-treated during detention.  It was so, it's a known fact.

CHAIRPERSON: That must have been caused by the fact that it was known that everybody who did not co-operate was assaulted so if you came out and didn't complain of assault, it would be proof that you had co-operated because all the other detainees knew they had been assaulted, wasn't that how this arose?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was so Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: Did anyone determine amongst you the police, how far the assault must go, in others words: "Look you can beat him up to this point but not so far - no further".  Was that ever done?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Not that I'm aware of Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: Did anyone set out the method and say: "Look, if you want to beat him do it this way and not the other way"?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson, not that I'm aware of.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nieuwoudt, wasn't it the practice to endeavour not to leave marks so if a Judge - a Magistrate came on a ...[inaudible] inspection, they wouldn't see obviously bruises and matters of that nature?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: You are correct Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: So things like - I'm just taking - mentioning at random, things like - methods like making a person stand day in and day out and all night and all day, that was one of the methods to make sure he gets tired.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was so Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: Anything that will make him uncomfortable and lose resistance?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: So you could make him stand on bricks because that would be most uncomfortable, that also was permissible?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was so Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: So what appears in one of the statements here about - Mr Bobelo's statement about Mr Mthimkhulu being made to stand on bricks, is not a far fetched statement?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't have personal experience in this regard, if he did it then he had probably done that.  I don't know, I cannot comment on that.

MR PHOSA: Let's put it this way, it would not be abnormal, it would be quite a normal thing to make him go through that process whilst being interrogated especially because he was cheeky?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was so Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: That's enough of that, sorry.  This background that you referred to, remember you referred us to Exhibits 1 and 2 sorry, ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think we've had Exhibits 1 and 2, our exhibits are all alphabetic.

MR PHOSA: Annexures, sorry.  I haven't abandoned my criminal ways in court.  I had a look - perused this once again this Annexure 1, pages 59 to 61, you already considered and it's obvious that that's a document that came out in 1986, however let's look at a few things about it. On page 60, paragraph 4, if you read - perhaps let us just read that and I'll tell you which portion I wanted to concentrate on - just read that out aloud - 4.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Reads
"The strategic analysis of a situation in the RSA and comparison thereof with revolutionary wars in other countries make it very clear that the RSA will lose the struggle for the heart and soul of the body and thus work it's own downfall unless the security situation is immediately stabilised.   The revolutionaries in the population be separated and socio-economic bottlenecks be relieved and clear political guidelines for future Governmental development be held up to the population"

MR PHOSA: Thank you.  Now from what I've read in the subsequent document - knowing that you've read it too I would like to say to you, you must concede that the reference there is for the South African Government to - not to lose the struggle for heart and soul and - before you answer, that has to be read with the subsequent document where it says
"The whole struggle must concentrate on winning the support of the majority of the people of South Africa"

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That's true Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: And even in that paragraph, the phrase 4th from the bottom
"The revolutionaries among the population must be separated from that population"
I say to you that gives the underlying notion of all this to distance the population from the leadership, that is the whole emphasis.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It could be so Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: What I also pick up in these documents and I'll just refer to one portion in support thereof, is that the emphasis was on national systematic action, in other words the idea was that there had to be a common approach, isn't that so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Which page where - the reference?

MR PHOSA: Perhaps then to complete that just to make it easier for you - paragraph 5, if	 you read from the beginning and then you get to the end of the 3rd line or maybe begin in the middle of the 3rd line
"But it is of course essential that on national level there should be continuous planning"

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I see that Mr Chairperson, but could you please read it in context with the word: "budget for".

MR PHOSA: Where is that?
MR NIEUWOUDT
"At national level there should be continuous planning which will address the revolutionary warfare for the present and on the long term and that strong co-ordinated action on regional and local level will have - it will have to be devolved to that level and budgeted for."

MR PHOSA: Maybe you should just make your point, what are saying about "budgeted for"?  Are you saying "budgeted for" does not accommodate my suggestion that the whole idea was a co-ordinated action?  Are you saying I am wrong about that - in that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Your question didn't come through completely.

MR PHOSA: I'm sorry, I did something I suppose.  Okay, can I repeat that?  Are you saying that because of the need to budget for that, one must not - I've done nothing, it keeps cutting.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Phosa, what I've learnt - can you switch off your - what I've learnt from experience - can you switch off your, when you speak you must never have any paper on top of this here.

MR PHOSA: Thank you very much, I'm learning a lot of things.
	Let's just finalise this point.  Mr Nieuwoudt, surely the word: "budgeted for" - the phrase, does not do away with the notion which is emphasised by even the words appearing thereafter: "in need to co-ordinate this at least even at all levels", so I'm suggesting to you that the issue of budgeting does not run away from the need to act jointly in a common strategy.  I don't think we should spend time on that.

CHAIRPERSON: Budgeting surely indicates, certainly in this country that it must be on a national basis?

MR PHOSA: Yes, Mr Chairman.   Let's save time on this, I don't think there's a problem with that.  I understand you, you are saying there would have to be money for that but that's not the issue, I'm saying it has national action - conduct, co-ordination.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It is so and it was devolved to local level.

MR PHOSA: Alright.  Paragraph 6 ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Somebody who's sitting in the vicinity of a microphone - should you turn a page or make any hand gestures, it in fact affects the sound and it causes a disturbance in the ears.  These loudspeakers are very sensitive so one should try to refrain from moving the hands around or turning pages near to the mike's.