Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-09

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: No Sir.  These allegations were always made, they were always rife that some group or person or third force was involved in something.  I couldn't make, every time when such an occurrence happened, make particular allegations, but what did happen Sir, and I've said so, that an officer, I do not know whom, it wasn't the person involved, phoned me or spoke to me, a senior officer and he said that he was perturbed about the allegations in the press alleging that the South African Defence Force was involved from which I gained the impression that he says it wasn't us.  And my advice to him, which is the advice which I would as Commissioner have given to anyone in similar circumstances was man, let the investigation go its full course.  If there are then at the end of it certain matters to be cleared get a good lawyer.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lyster.

MR LYSTER: So General you are aware then that no member of special forces came forward then and conceded that he or they had been involved in the killing?

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: Yes ten years after my retirement Mr Lyster.

MR LYSTER: Yes, but you recall in the incident at the time you will know that no-one came forward and admitted it, and there was no inquest at which special forces ...(intervention)

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: No I must say that very shortly after that I retired from the police, in early 1987, but as far as I am concerned Sir, there was a full investigation by a senior officer of the police under the command of the CID officer at that stage who I do not know who it is at this time, it was an ordinary investigation and I did not interfere in any way whatsoever with the course of justice.

MR LYSTER: No I am not at all suggesting that you did ...(intervention)

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: And neither did I Sir have information at my fingertips to indicate to me that someone else was involved because then I would have done what I did in similar circumstances at other times, I would at least, at least have reported to my Minister and said this, this is the situation even if it's just a rumour and there's no evidence, this is the situation.  I've done that before regarding ministers Sir, said this is the information that my information officers or investigating officers has brought to the fore.  Or, alternatively the Attorney General has informed me of something like this, that this is what he suspects.  Nothing happened of that nature.

MR LYSTER: No General you misunderstand me, I am not suggesting that you were in any way involved and I am not even suggesting that the inquest ...(intervention)

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: It wasn't an inquest Sir.  I believe from my investigations afterwards it was a preparatory examination which you know is meant to see if there are evidence available and what is the nature of this evidence.

MR LYSTER: But it's correct ...(intervention)

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: It concerned a particular white person.

MR LYSTER: Yes, but it's correct that no member of special forces at the time came forward and admitted to the death?

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: No Sir, no not at all, not to me.  I don't know to the investigating officer whether he was -made a confession there.

MR LYSTER: And if there had been such a public admission by a member of the special forces you would have known about it, isn't that right?

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: Oh yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: Can I just ask a general question General.  You said you retired almost immediately after...

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: That's right.

MR NTSEBEZA: ...these deaths.  I think they occurred in December 1986.

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: Yes I retired, well we've got a custom in the police the last three months you don't work, I suppose in the Commission it will be more-or-less the same, so early in 1987 Sir I was out of office.

MR NTSEBEZA: Ja.  Did these killings have anything to do with your retirement?  I see you smile.

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: There is non nexus Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: There is no nexus.

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: No nexus.

MR NTSEBEZA: You were quite disturbed by these killings?

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: I am disturbed ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: You were disturbed by the killings?

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: I am disturbed by any killings.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes, but these particular ones disturbed you especially when you began to hear that there suggestions that members of the security forces, not necessarily the police, were involved?

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: I heard that Sir when I was already many years on pension.

MR NTSEBEZA: No you said immediately there were allegations by members of the family.

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: Oh yes, oh yes, in the press Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: In the press ...(intervention)

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: And that was in the pattern of things at that stage.

MR NTSEBEZA: Would it be - you say we shouldn't draw the inference from your resignation that you felt that even if it is a mere suggestion that members of the security force were involved in these matters you cannot take that because you were so much against unlawful actions by members of the security forces, that you wouldn't like to associated with a situation where your police might have been involved in such killings?

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: Mr Chairperson the fact is that there were these allegations, these allegations or assertions about a particular person in the press Sir, in the press.  This man Sir, was placed at some stage, as far as I can recollect from what I have heard afterwards Sir, was placed on an identification parade and a full investigation was conducted by experienced police officers, not one of them, neither the officer commanding the CID came to me and said General please I want to inform you of an untoward incident that happened that you should take cognisance of.  So as far as I am concerned it wasn't proven.
 That doesn't mean Sir, that it cannot be reopened, it cannot be reinvestigated and if additional evidence is available a man cannot be charged, as you as an attorney should well know.  So at that stage, like in many cases, many, many, many cases in South Africa you are confronted with a legal situation that went its full course at that stage as far as it could go.   It didn't affect me further than that.

MR NTSEBEZA: And is it, just finally, is it then your evidence that to the extent that there may have been evidence suggesting that the police under your commissionership had given an impression to members of the special forces that there had been authorisation for that action by the South African Police, to that extent you would say there had been no such authorisation?

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: No there's - what I can say Sir, what you've, how you've qualified it and yes and no, which require yes and no answers but in a nutshell I did not give, I was not approached and I did not give any authorisation for that situation.
 As a matter of fact Sir, at that stage there was one instruction that I've given, and that was a long-standing instruction and that stemmed from very many conferences, the Kobie Coetzee conference that I have spoken about, the Simonstad Agreement etc that in what we termed the security family or the security organisations by - it was the policy of the government that all information should be shared, all information, and I supported that, that policy, inter alia for the reason that the South African Defence Force's attitude was that if this position deteriorated it turned into a martial law situation one cannot expect them to start operating in a vacuum.  They've got to have the information available.  So the instruction was information should be shared but operations should be separate, under own command.  That was the standing instruction at that stage.

MR NTSEBEZA: And you are saying no ...(intervention)

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: Whether it changed afterwards I don't know.