Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-05

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: There were no instructions of giving Mr Netshivale to assault people.  It only happened that while we were assaulting them they were also available assaulting them at the same time.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, in your earlier evidence you said you would at times use these young boys to come and assist you to interrogate suspects if Mr Ramaligela wasn't there.  What I am putting to you is when you use the term "young boys" you are referring to constables?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes it's because they are younger than me by birth.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Irrespective of rank?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: By birth and rank because I was higher than and older than them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, thank you.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Did you ever see Mr Netshivale assaulting any of the detainees during that time?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: No I am not sure that I saw him specifically assaulting but he's the person who can explain.  It happened long ago.

MR VAN RENSBURG: What I can't understand then Mr Managa is you say that you were assisted by people to assault and interrogate and that Mr Netshivale was one of them, yet you can't remember who he was involved with; with which detainees; whether or not he assaulted, so why mention his name?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: It's because I know that he was in the Security, and most of the people who were in the Security which I know were in the interrogating team, I can't say they didn't assault them.  That's why I am saying what I did.  But I can't really recall, but he was also involved in the Security Branch.

CHAIRPERSON: So it's purely by association that you think that he might have assaulted somebody merely because he was a member of the Security Branch and at that stage most of the members of the Security Branch were involved in assaulting the detainees?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes we were all involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Would I then be correct if I summarise the situation to be that - and seeing that you are denying that you gave these young constables direct instructions to assault the detainees, what in fact happened was that you would assault the detainees, these young constables would come in from time-to-time, they see how you acted and they reacted to your actions by also proceeding to assault the detainees? Is that a correct situation?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I can't dispute that they could have imitated us, but I can't remember whether Mr Netshivale did that to which detainee, I can't remember that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I am not referring specifically to Mr Netshivale, I am talking about all these other young constables that you are referring to.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: It is true.  I cannot recall one of those young boys who assisted what we were doing in front of us.  I can't remember or recall that.  But I am not disputing that they were involved.  Sometimes they might have done that imitating our actions, but I am unable to recall.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just interpose here I just want clarity on this.  Did these young constables have free access to this room where you did the interrogations?  Could they just walk in and out of the rooms where you had the interrogation?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes they sometimes got in our office while we were assaulting these people.  They sometimes got inside and hear what we were questioning them and then also interrogated them, but they were not refused entrance.

ADV BOSMAN: But did you sometimes specifically invite them to come in and assist in the interrogation?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: It's that with these young officers our office was a hall and we used to sit being so many there.  We in the younger group we were staying in a hall, staying together there.

ADV BOSMAN: But I don't understand.  We have heard evidence that there was an interrogation office, or interrogation room with windows and you could see if the General would be approaching, now what I would like to know is the young constables, the young boys as you called them, did you sometimes invite them into this room when you were interrogating, or would they just sort-of have free access and go there to and fro?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: The office, it was not referred to as the interrogation office, it was our office where we used to work in it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The question is, did you at times invite them to come and assist you in interrogating the suspects that you were holding, no?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: No, no, that's not true.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But I thought that was your earlier evidence?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: We never invited them.  They used to come on their own, and while they were there we were interrogating and then they assisted in interrogating.  Sometimes they should have slapped, but I cannot say who was slapping who.  But I can't recall, but we were all there in the office while I was assaulting those people.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I recollect your evidence to have been that you used these young persons when Ramaligela wasn't there to assist you in interrogating these people.  That's your evidence.  By "these people" I would want to assume that you are referring to the suspects.  That is what you said earlier on.  That you would use them, and when you use somebody it means you invite that person to come and assist you.  You said you used them to assist you in interrogating these people when Ramaligela wasn't there.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Let me say that sometimes with Mr Ramaligela was not yet available he used to find us continuing with the job.  And even those boys were there and myself and Mr Nesamari being there continuing with interrogation.  I can't dispute that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, that these constables would be there at your instance.  You would request them to come in to assist you because Mr Ramaligela wouldn't be there.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I don't remember inviting them because it was there in the office and if you are asking anything then the boys could also intervene in interrogating themselves.  It is something which - because we were in the same team.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now if Mr Ramaligela would not be there who would be the officer holding a higher rank amongst the investigating team between yourself and Mr Nesamari?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I think it's myself because I was a warrant officer, but I can't remember what position Mr Nesamari held.  I think it was myself who could take the information to Mr Ramaligela.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And you said nothing when the constables participated in assaulting the suspects in your presence?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: No, I didn't say anything because I was also assaulting.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.  Mr van Rensburg you may continue.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	I just want to follow-up on that previous question.  The reason why you did not intervene when these young constables were assaulting the detainees was in fact that you expected that kind of behaviour from the young policemen, is that not so?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: The way in which we were assaulting them I think I am the person who was assaulting them heavily, but these young boys were just assisting but I was personally involved but I didn't intervene or dispute them while they were assaulting them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The question is, is that was because you expected that kind of behaviour.  You expected them to also participate in assaulting the detainees.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: In the police act by that time we did sign even forms to prevent us from assaulting people, but assaulting, if you were found assaulting steps could be taken but by then I didn't prevent them doing that, but I know if I did it excessively we will be in danger.