Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

MR GOOSEN: Thank you. I could just once again point out, as I indicated at the outset, that of the 1,200 acts of torture attributed to security forces, the indication is that over the period the rate of torture in the period of the state of emergency which is when the two week detention orders generally would have applied, more than doubles in relation to non-emergency periods. But perhaps we can't take that further at this point.

MR DE KLERK: Can I just say one thing on that. I deny that there was toleration and sort-of acceptance and actual support for any such a practice.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. You have moved to a new section, you want to move - I wonder just for the sake of all of us whether you don't want a stretch, but not going out, a two minute stretch, no smokes....

CHAIRPERSON: I am now going to give an opportunity to some of my colleagues on the panel who may have questions and then we will hand back to Glen Goosen. Denzil Potgieter.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson. Mr de Klerk could we just go back to an explanation which you volunteered in regard to one of these aberrations that you debated this morning and that is this question of Vlakplaas, and let's just see if we do understand your position correctly in respect of Vlakplaas.
Is your explanation that what actually happened was that officers lower down in the hierarchy of the police were doing this Vlakplaas exercise entirely on their own, in the process misleading their superior officers to the extent where the four general which you approached and who, to your mind, should have been aware of what was happening could tell you that they don't know a thing about Vlakplaas? And to the extent where you suggest that more than likely false reports were made to these superior officers. Is that the explanation that you proffer in respect of Vlakplaas?

MR DE KLERK: In your question you say "should have known" referring to the generals?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, I am quoting you.

MR DE KLERK: No, I don't think I said should have known, and if I did then I would like to re-phrase it because that's not what I intend to say.

MR POTGIETER: Perhaps I am mistaken.

MR DE KLERK: Was in the best position to know, because they dealt with police finances, they were involved in specific positions which were relevant to the type of purpose which I believe Vlakplaas was there, and that is for intelligence purposes, for getting people who walked over from the ANC to get information from them, to use them in the gathering of information and the like, as I dealt with in my written replies. They were, therefore, in a position, in a much better position than a minister or than a president or than anybody else to ascertain and to know. And my discussions with them led me to the conclusion that they say, very firmly, that they were not aware of it. To the best of my knowledge also they didn't apply for amnesty. Now if they were aware of it then the person immediately beneath them would know that they are aware of it, and likewise down the ladder, and therefore it would have been wise for them to apply for amnesty. The fact that they don't I quoted as substantiation that they believe that they have nothing to fear from this because they didn't know about it. 
So therefore they also say what I say. To the best of my knowledge, General van der Merwe in his interaction with you has said that he didn't know what was happening, and that is the point that I wanted to bring across.

<UNKNOWN>: air enough.

MR DE KLERK: So they had a different impression of what was going on than what was actually going on.

MR POTGIETER: Ja, I think we understand each other on that level. But you took it a step further, you gave as an explanation, look your position, if I understand it correctly, is that Vlakplaas is an aberration like a lot of these other things that were debated this morning, and the explanation, as I understand it that you were proffering, was that it must have been an officer or two or whatever lower down the hierarchy, somewhere below these generals who were doing this exercise, this Vlakplaas exercise, entirely on their own bat.

MR DE KLERK: That is my impression. I don't know exactly what those who are applying for Vlakplaas are saying. I haven't had the same insight into what they are saying in their amnesty applications, they might allege differently and I've dealt with that with regard to other examples. That the mere fact that an applicant for amnesty says something doesn't make it the truth. It is the most natural thing in life that somebody accused of something, caught out in doing something is trying to shift the blame elsewhere. It happens from the smallest of sins as the Archbishop will know to also the gravest of crimes.

<UNKNOWN>: air enough. But you see what we have to do is we have to test that explanation, which as I say, you volunteered and Vlakplaas is indeed an issue which is on our agenda. We have to look into that and we must make findings in respect of Vlakplaas. 
So the question that comes to mind is how reasonable is that explanation, that a lowly officer below these generals was responsible for this entire aberration that led to all these things that we know are being disclosed?

MR DE KLERK: There is nothing reasonable in crime. It's unreasonable. I don't want to take this very serious matter to a note of levity, but it's not the policy of the Commission that constantly information should be leaked to the press, but it happens. It happens. And it's a very serious issue I believe for you to have confidentiality maintained. But the reason which the deputy chairperson gave when a press conference on the so-called Steyn Report was held, was that there was such an imminent leak that he had, without telling me about it, without contacting me, that he had to hold such a press conference. Now although in the one case we are dealing with something fairly innocuous in comparison with the other, at what level does it take place in the Commission? Should the Commissioners know? Should the Executive head on the side of the officials know? Where does it occur? 
And likewise here, things happened, inasmuch as it happened in the period after 1990 or 1988, 1989 I can only deduct that the motivation was, and if I read what appeared in the newspaper about what de Kock said about me, that there was, in his heart and amongst some of his colleagues, a feeling that I was selling out the country. I recall reading that they said to each other at a certain stage well let's do this last thing now just to prove our point. So there's no reasonable explanation for that, but that appears to me is how it happened.

MR POTGIETER: Now let's just see, I mean I am trying to ascertain whether we understand your position correctly here, are you suggesting that it was at the level of the people in charge of Vlakplaas itself, officer in charge, like you've referred to Mr de Kock, is it at that level that they've been conducting this operation without anybody higher up knowing and effectively hiding this whole operation from scrutiny from on top?

MR DE KLERK: I can't tell you at which level. At least it was at his level according to his own evidence and to court findings. I don't know whether there was anybody higher up involved or not. That you will have to ascertain and once again I think the proper route is when such allegations are made is to confront the person who is accused of having authorised it with the allegation and to test that allegation in a fair way. That is what such a person accused is entitled to in terms of fair process.