Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-09-09

ADV POTGIETER:  And that you then subsequently buried him at Alice, or what happened?

WITNESS:  We requested that he be buried at his home in Alice.

ADV POTGIETER:  Now have you been paid any money, any compensation for the death?

WITNESS:  I received R500.

ADV POTGIETER:  And where did you receive that from?

WITNESS:  I don't know exactly who went there but it was a lady and a gentleman.

ADV POTGIETER:  Has there been any court cases arising out of the death?

WITNESS:  No there was no case.

ADV POTGIETER:  What was the effect of Zwelitsha's death on yourself and the family?

WITNESS:  After my son died I've never been in good health up to now.  When I was still pondering on that my husband died.  That too had a bad effect.  I'm in very bad health.  I have grandchildren that I'm educating.  My one grandchild has passed matric, the other is still in standard 9.  I don't have any other help at all to educate them.  The only money I receive is my pension money.

ADV POTGIETER:  Thank you very much.  Now is there anything in particular that you would like the Commission to attend to?

WITNESS:  I would like the Commission, as my child was buried at home, I'll ask that his grave, that a tombstone be put there so that there are no stampedes.  I will request the Commission to have compassion especially about my children.  I would also like to tell you that after my husband died, a policeman came to me wanting Zwelitsha's death certificate.  I said that I should not give the death certificate to him but because he is from the government I gave it to him.  A few months went by and I went to Alice to find this death certificate.  They say it's not there, I would try again to retrieve it, they would still say it's not there.  They told me the one time that it's in Bisho, until I thought I don't have any more money to retrieve this death certificate and I gave up.

ADV POTGIETER:  Would you like the Commission to look into that for you, the question about the death certificate?

WITNESS:  Yes please.  This policeman said his name is Baum.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much, we have noted everything that you've said and we thank you for sharing the story with us.  I don't have any further questions that I want to put to you and I'm going to ask that you be handed back to the Chairperson.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Ladies and gentlemen we do not have many words to give to you.  Apologies.  I apologise, I thought we had finished.

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION: BISHO MASSACRE - DAY 1 - 9 SEPTEMBER 1996

CASE NO: 11

UNKNOWN: NTOMBEMBI GAZI-KALENI  [grandmother]
NTOMBEMBI GAZI-KALENI   Duly sworn states

BONGANI FINCA: Your Grace, we request our last witness in this group Ntombembi Gazi Kaleni.  Dumisa Ntsebeza will ask the questions.

UNKNOWN: I am going to speak Xhosa to you ma'am because I think that you do not want to put on your earphones.  You think it's only doctors that put on earphones.  Just relax.  Just relax and sit back.  I'm not really sure whether this statement giving your identity number is saying that you were born in 1918 is that so?

WITNESS:  Who me?

UNKNOWN:  Were you born during the typhus in 1918?

WITNESS:  I was born -

UNKNOWN:  You have come to tell us about Xolani.

WITNESS:  Yes it is so.  A child came to me on a Monday to tell me that Xolani has been shot in the head.  They first lied to me and said he's been shot in the hand.  I asked them why he doesn't come back because he has been shot in the hand.  A young man then came to me and said Xolani has been shot in the head and he died.  We then slept with that news, until on Saturday the people that were with him who came -

UNKNOWN:  Who exactly came?

WITNESS:  Members of the ANC.

UNKNOWN:  ANC members?

WITNESS:  Yes.  They then told me formerly that he died.  It was terrible.  I don't have anyone.  I have a lady staying with me with epileptic fits.

UNKNOWN:  Is this young woman Numsasa?

WITNESS:  Yes.

UNKNOWN:  She's now in hospital?

WITNESS:  Yes she is.  She was still staying with me at the time.

UNKNOWN:  Is that Xolani's mother?

WITNESS:  Yes it is.

UNKNOWN:  Please continue.

WITNESS:  I realised that my daughter was very unsettled.  I asked members of the community to come and take her to hospital.  Xolani was then not yet buried.  He then got buried on the Saturday.

UNKNOWN:   [Indistinct] came from the Chowie clan.

WITNESS:  They came back, those that told me about the death of Xolani and a young man called Lutile came with a group of people.  They said they would come again on Saturday.  Xolani was buried on Saturday.  I did not ask for a death certificate because I was not well.  After a while, a month after the funeral, I asked if the death certificate arrived.  Nobody knew.  I still don't have Xolani's death certificate.

UNKNOWN:  Xolani had two children?

WITNESS:  Yes a boy and a girl.

UNKNOWN:  Did your daughter leave them with you?

WITNESS:  Yes, because she was not in good health.  I then supported them.  They came when they were still very young.  The one now is in standard five and the other in standard three.  As the mother is not working they are supported by my pension.

UNKNOWN:  Did you go to lawyers or attorneys to help you?

WITNESS:  Yes I did.  I don't know the name of the lawyer.

UNKNOWN:  Is it Mr Thabata?

WITNESS: I don't know but he is Coloured.

UNKNOWN:  Is it Smith?

WITNESS:  Yes it is.

UNKNOWN:  What happened to the case?

WITNESS:  There was just silence and I didn't get anything.

UNKNOWN:  Did you follow up with Mr Smith?

WITNESS: I went three times.

UNKNOWN:  What does he say each time you go?

WITNESS:  He says that he will fix it some time.

UNKNOWN:  When last did you go?

WITNESS:  I went in July.

UNKNOWN:  Do you want us to ask them and investigate as the Commission?

WITNESS:   [Indistinct].

UNKNOWN:  Yes, we have a way, we'll ask them and find out.  This young man from the Chowie clan, do you ever meet him?

WITNESS:  No he left a long time ago.

UNKNOWN:   [Indistinct]

WITNESS:  Yes I was born in Buffalo.  Fanie is from my home, he is from the Chowie clan.

UNKNOWN:  Thank you.  What can we do for you ma'am, besides your children?

WITNESS:  If you could just help me support these children because even if I say I want money, I know I won't get it.  If you can make a way for me to support these children.

UNKNOWN:  At least you are aware that we, as the Commission don't have money either but we do try to ask people so that their wishes are looked at in a significant way.  Is there anything else ma'am?

WITNESS:  No there is nothing else except that I have this cry for my children.

UNKNOWN:  If the present government who took the place of the Gqozo government and if there's a way that these lawyers, Thabata and van Heerden, you will not reject the money, will you take it?

WITNESS:  Yes I will take it.

UNKNOWN: Thank you ma'am.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.  Thank you very much ma'am.  They have finished asking questions.  Is there anything that you would like to say?

WITNESS:  No reverend there is nothing.