Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

FAAN VENTER: No I didn't expect that to happen.  I expected that Mr Derby-Lewis would have told them that it was on its way, the firearm was on its way so why, you know why would I have had to tell them as if they had no prior knowledge of the firearm.  So I don't think that it was just a matter of delivering a firearm to strangers.  Mr Derby-Lewis said take it there and just tell Mr du Randt that this is the jersey, Clive's jersey and they would know what to do with it.

ADV POTGIETER: The improbability, the strangeness of the situation which I am trying to put to you is that according to her it was indeed a jersey, but when she later peeped into this parcel, probably from sheer curiosity she then realised that it was a firearm.

FAAN VENTER: No it wasn't wrapped in a jersey, it was just in a plastic bag.  I definitely didn't wrap it in a jersey, I didn't have jersey belonging to Clive, I had only seen him once, so I didn't have a jersey that belonged to Clive.

ADV POTGIETER: One other aspect, when did your wife correct you after the trial?

FAAN VENTER: When - virtually immediately after the trial.

ADV POTGIETER: Immediately after you testified?

FAAN VENTER: No she wasn't present at the court hearing but when she heard what the exact evidence was she told me, "look Fanie it wasn't that day, it was the 10th".  She also pointed out certain times and dates and I had to agree with her that that's the way it happened.

ADV POTGIETER: Did you then try to correct your testimony?

FAAN VENTER: No I - well how could I correct it?  After Mrs Derby-Lewis had been released from prison I told her that I had made a mistake and she said, "ja I know it was the first half of March".

ADV POTGIETER: You didn't tell the State advocate that?

FAAN VENTER: I only realised that after I Clive had been convicted and I don't know whether it was something he relied on for his appeal.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Venter you have stated that you expected Mr Derby-Lewis to have phoned the du Randts to apprise them that you would be coming to deliver this jersey, what time was your meeting with Mr Derby-Lewis?

FAAN VENTER: It was before 12 in the morning, it was during the morning.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And when was the jersey delivered to Mrs du Randt?

FAAN VENTER: I didn't deliver a jersey to Mrs du Randt, it was only a firearm that I took there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, well that was the code name of the firearm.

FAAN VENTER: It was early evening, round about five o'clock, maybe six o'clock.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And did you tell Mr Derby-Lewis that you would be delivering the firearm to the du Randts on that day, did you tell him that?

FAAN VENTER: No he told me that I should deliver it on that - he told me to go and deliver it there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did he tell you when to deliver the firearm to the du Randt's house?  That is my question.

FAAN VENTER: I can't recall that he gave me an exact date, he just said, go and give it to them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When you went in the evening, had he told you whether he would be phoning the du Randt's?

FAAN VENTER: No he didn't.  He didn't tell me when he was going to phone them.  I got the impression that - I was under the impression that the du Randt's were actually waiting for it - "they say I am going to stock up, I am stocking up" and I expected that they were the people who were actually doing the stockpiling of weapons, that's how I thought at the time.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: How far was the du Randt's house from yours?

FAAN VENTER: Approximately two kilometres.

JUDGE WILSON: So it was further than Mr Derby-Lewis' house, it was a house you didn't know and yet it was supposed to be more convenient to drop it there. How could that possibly be?

FAAN VENTER: I wouldn't know.  I simply carried out the instruction.

JUDGE WILSON: Because I gather, I am not certain of this but my recollection of the evidence was that you had trouble finding the du Randt's house.

FAAN VENTER: Yes I had to drive around a bit looking for it, but I found it.

JUDGE WILSON: While you were arranging for your son's 21st birthday party?

FAAN VENTER: My wife made these preparations, not me.

JUDGE WILSON: You were driving around looking for strangers.

FAAN VENTER: Well if I did drive around it was only for about five minutes, it didn't last hours, but I did actually look for the house.  I was looking for the du Randt's whom I had never met before.

SISI KHAMPEPE: If I gather your evidence properly then Mr Venter is that you suspected that something sinister was going on?

FAAN VENTER: What do you mean exactly?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Requested by Mr Derby-Lewis to deliver the firearm to the du Randts, you didn't ask further questions because you suspected something sinister was going on?

FAAN VENTER: I assumed that the weapons were being stockpiled because of the general conditions in the country and I wasn't surprised because at that stage the right-wing organisations or people had been arrested for illegal possession of firearms and there was a trend towards stockpiling of weapons although I wasn't involved in that myself.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And you thought the du Randt's were involved in that group of stockpiling?

FAAN VENTER: That was what I thought, yes, and that's why I thought I had to go there to go and deliver it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When you came in did you ascertain whether that person you were speaking to was Mrs du Randt?

FAAN VENTER: I just asked, who lives here, are you Mrs du Randt?  She said yes.  I said I've brought Clive's jersey and I put it down and I left.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you give her instructions to ensure that the jersey was delivered by them to Clive?

FAAN VENTER: Yes I said please see to it that your husband delivers it safely or receives it safely.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Prinsloo you made reference to a document with regard to claims which are made by Mr Derby-Lewis, that is the document Mr Chairman said you could talk to Mr Bizos about like during the adjournment, but I am curious about that document and the nature of it precisely.  Will that document tend to show that Mr Derby-Lewis, during the say the first or second half of February was in Cape Town and therefore he could not have met with the witness in Krugersdorp?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman the document I've got here, the President's Council document, it will indicate that Mr Derby-Lewis was in the President's Council from the 21st of February until the 5th of March.  That's the document I've got here.  The documents here are the payments etc, claim for payment, travelling expenses and so on, for that period.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo we will just come to that.  Have you any re-examination of this witness?

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Venter when the police were questioning you in relation to the statement that you made do you know whether Mrs du Randt had already made a statement at that stage or not?

FAAN VENTER: I think that she had already made a statement because I only made a statement the next day and she'd already gone home, so I think she had already made a statement.

MR PRINSLOO: So if she had already made a statement in which she said that (the Interpreter is unable to hear, there is a strange noise on the equipment)

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold it there's seems to be a bit of trouble, we can't hear clearly.  Let's just have it again, maybe....

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Venter I will repeat.  When you were being questioned by the police do you know whether at that stage Mrs du Randt had already made a statement to the police?

FAAN VENTER: I assumed that she had because she had already gone home before I made my statement so I assume they wouldn't have released her until she'd made a statement and that's why I make that assumption.

MR PRINSLOO: Now if she had stated that it was in February, could it have been put to the police, to you like that?

FAAN VENTER: That's what I think happened.