Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Mgidlana is putting to you and correct me if I'm wrong Mr Mgidlana, is that the victims that he represents which is all of these mentioned by you save for Ms Nomonde Matoti who is represented by Mr Stofile, that all of them will say that first of all and you've already dealt with this, you don't have to mention it again, that you were present together with Sgt Tshota at the time of their arrest and secondly, that you were present the whole time that they were tortured and you were taking the lead in the torturing.  That's what they're saying so it's for you to address that.  What do you say to that, that is being put to you?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Those that he is representing, yes I would be present but I never used to take the leading role all the time.

MR LAX: You haven't understood the question.  The question is not that you weren't present, the question is that you were present the entire time that they were being tortured, that's the first part of it.  In other words that you never left the room once during each of those tortures?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR LAX: So you didn't leave so that if they say certain things happened you said well it must have happened when I wasn't there.  That's why he is asking you this question because he's saying to you they say you were there the whole time so that whatever they say happened to them you were present.  Do you understand the question now?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I do understand now.  What would happen was this, I would be present during their arrest, all those people and I would be present during the torture but I cannot say that I wouldn't go out and be absent some other days.  I'm not in a position to say that because I cannot remember focusing on that for the whole day and I cannot say I once left the room on such and such a time, I cannot say for sure about that.

MR LAX: That was the first part of the question, the second part of the question was that you led each and every torture, you were the leading person in charge and initiating the torture, have I put it correctly?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes it's correct.

MR LAX: Now ...(intervention)

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I would play a leading role with the others but not with all of them.

MR MGIDLANA: However, they say, all of them say you were always playing a leading role in their torture?  In you affidavit, Exhibit C1 you deny that Mtimkulu was ever burnt with cigarettes on his private parts in your presence, is that correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: During my presence that never happened.

MR MGIDLANA: Maybe let me just assist you to recall, it's you and Sgt Tshota who went to arrest Mtimkulu at Kwezi Township in Umtata, is that correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I did not find him at Kwezi.

MR MGIDLANA: Where did you find him?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I found him in town just next to Savoy Flats, he was with one gentleman whose surname was Mfeketo from Cape Town.

MR MGIDLANA: No, Mtimkulu says you went to fetch him from the Kwezi township.  You and Sgt Tshota and you took him to your offices at Norwood.  Did you take him to Norwood?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I found him in flats next to Savoy Flats where he was Mr Mfeketo not at Kwezi.  If he was once apprehended at Kwezi then it means that I was not present

MR LAX: Sorry, just for my benefit, can you just repeat the name of the person he was with?  I just didn't catch it clearly.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Mfeketo.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR MGIDLANA: Well he says at your offices at Norwood you were the first person to put a towel around his wrists and to put on the handcuffs and ordered him to sit down, is that not correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I cannot remember that I was the first person but yes, I did torture him but I cannot remember whether I was a first person or what.

MR MGIDLANA: I'm not talking about the torturing, I'm talking about the putting of the towels around his wrists and the handcuffing of him.  He says that was done by you?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I cannot dispute that.

MR MGIDLANA: And he is emphatic in saying that you actually participated in his burning with cigarette butts in his private parts, it's not that you were present, you actually also did participate in doing that.  Is that not correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I never did that.

MR MGIDLANA: He even says that one of the most favourable methods of torture that you used to do was to ask him to stand on his head and balancing him up whilst his feet were facing upwards.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I cannot dispute that but all I can say is that I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Now Mr Siqhola, if you can't remember that you made him stand up on his head how can you be so sure that you didn't burn him with cigarette butts?  How can you remember some things but not other things?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: The reason for me to remember that he would be asked to stand up with his hands with his feet standing up, that method actually was part of exercises.  It was part of the exercises but that's why I say I cannot remember if that was administered to him but everyone was just - people would behave as hooligans, there was nothing that was in order, there was no logic in everything that was happening there.

MR LAX: Sorry, could I just ask one question?  You were a smoker, is that right?  You said something about lighting a cigarette earlier?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes that is correct.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you apply the method of requesting detainees to balance with their head to any other detainees except maybe Mtimkulu because you said you can't remember whether it did apply to him?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: There were people who were made to do that, I cannot say that I was not administering to Mtimkulu because there was no order there, there was nothing formal.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

MR MGIDLANA: Is it also correct that when you at some stage you'll pour water on one's nose or nostril, I'm not so sure what's the correct term.

MR LAX: Nostril.

MR MGIDLANA: Nostril, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, was it part of your practice in torturing people to pour water up or down people's nostrils.

MR MGIDLANA: When their heads are facing down.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, that was never done, it's my first time to hear about that.

MR MGIDLANA: Mtimkulu says that's what was done in your presence by some of those with whom you were torturing him.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I did not know that.

MR MGIDLANA: Is it not that maybe you've forgotten?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I haven't forgotten that but I did not see that.

MR DUKADA: I'm sorry Mr Chairperson, maybe this could assist the witness in understanding this question.  He mentioned something about canvas bag, water being poured inside and the person ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think if we can perhaps just clear this up, Mr Dukada?  You're not talking about the canvas bag method are you Mr Mgidlana?

MR MGIDLANA: No, it's ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You're not talking about the canvas bag stage, it's just like if somebody is - let's say standing on his head or having his head down that water was poured into the nostrils?

MR LAX: Just if I could interpose?  Did you never, if somebody was standing on his head, just throw a bucket over them or something so the water may well have gone up his nose?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No.

MR MGIDLANA: I'm told that these incidents of your involvement in the arrests of Mtimkulu are two, one happened at Kwezi and the other one at Savoy that you've mentioned, is that correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I was only present when he was apprehended next to Savoy Flats.  I cannot think about the Kwezi incident but I think Mtimkulu was detained twice but I was only involved when he was arrested in Savoy, next to Savoy.