Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-14

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I met with him in 1990.  In 1991, he introduced me to Lebohang Mehi.  Between 1990 and 91 I came to know Mr Rasta Moloto.

CHAIRPERSON: You said in 1991:  "They arrived at my place ..." that was the three, Sibande, Moloto and Mehi, now I don't follow.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: As I'm explaining the first person that I knew was Sibande.  As time went by, you know between 90 and 91, I came to know Rasta Moloto.  On the 10th of 1991, I came to know Lebohang Mehi.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the 10th of 1991?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: It was in January.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, please assist us, we don't know these other things.  We don't assume, it is you who has got to assist us.  If you mention a date, tell us which month, because we know nothing, you are the person who knows everything, is that okay?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Thank you My Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: But when you were asked questions that two, "The target was identified by myself with the authorisation of APLA through its declaration of the 90's as the decade of the great people's offensive."
Now you just told my brother here something else.  Who authorised you, who commanded you, who instructed you, because it would appear there's a conflict here.  At one stage you were asked by my brother and you said it was Letlapa Mphahlele, right up front, you say no, no, authorisation through the declaration and I suppose you're referring to the writings of the Pan Africanist Congress.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I will explain it this way.  After inquiring about the importance of the attack, I wanted to know what was happening and they explained to me
"You must know that from this year, 1990, this is the year of - it was a year of corruption, that's why you'll see us doing what we are doing now."
I asked them why and they said:  
"You must know, we have told you that this is going to be a very chaotic year, we are now starting with our fighting.  We are going ahead with the struggle."
And I wanted to know who was the person on top of all the instructions and the orders and the name ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Now but wouldn't it have been simple for you to say so-and-so said:  "From now henceforth is the great people's offensive and this has been said by the organisation, PAC", because  here you are categorically saying to us you were authorised through these pamphlets probably you received, you don't say you were told, or am I reading it wrong, as I read it to you?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: You are quite right, I am explaining, I have explained that I wanted to know, I wanted information as to what was happening.  After inquiring what was happening, they told me:  "You must know and this is war, we are engaging ourselves in a war" and I came - I familiarised myself with the idea of fighting and what the fighting was about, that is why I gave the reason for all these.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they say there was war, or we're going to revolutionise and go on the offensive to destabilise the country, did they say so?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: They said to me we were going to destabilise the country.

CHAIRPERSON: Because you see even the crime you are applying for amnesty for, is attacking people on a farm, you were not facing another enemy as in war, would I be right as well?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: We were going to attack, Sir and to repossess whatever we could to hand over to the organisation as per instructions, that is why we ended up looking for more than two people for the attack, so that the other two could help us with the carrying out of what we were doing there.

CHAIRPERSON: When you reconnoitred the place, what did you see which was of value to the PAC which you could repossess?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Together with the person I was with, he said this is a very nice place, it looks like this man is very rich and we could get quite a lot of assistance for the organisation, that is why we wanted more than two people for this operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Other than this man looking plum, what was there that had to be taken?  You can't tell me you see a man with a nice suit and you tell me that this man is rich, therefore we would get something out of him.  What precisely because you went to look at the place, what did you see?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: He had a car and there were items, many items there.

JUDGE DE JAGER: In the house?  Were there many items in the house, or outside?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Well, if we noticed very well, outside we could see from where we were that there was a car parked outside and there was another one inside.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now why didn't you take the car and drive away, what else did you want to take?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: The plan was to kill the boers.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, no.  You said at first was to attack the whites and repossess, this is a dual thing.  We want to know right now, because you went, accompanied Rasta to look at the place and you took two people with who would do the carrying of what you repossessed, we want to know what were these people going to carry which you repossessed?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: What I'm explaining here is that the two people, the person who chose them, knew the reason for that.  When we separated with him, the first point that we agreed upon was that we know this man is rich, the second point, here are the cars outside and he explained to me that we can see the cattle, so this man was also selling cattle, so in other words there were many things, many other things that we would get and those would need more than two people.

JUDGE DE JAGER: How do you know Rasta didn't go there on a frolic of his own to take things for himself and he had two friends going with, they were not PAC even, you don't know whether they were.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: According to our agreement he said:  "I will go and look for two people, you will search for a car", whether they were friends, I do not know, but the agreement that we reached of bringing two people and me bringing a vehicle, was done, I brought a car, he brought the two people.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But my question is, how do you know that Rasta didn't plan to break into their house or to rob things for his own purposes, for personal gain?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That would not be the case, Sir, we had agreed that we are working for the organisation.  He taught me that as we are doing now, we are working for the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: You said there were many people who belonged to the organisation in Virginia.  Why didn't you say:  "Because we have looked at this place, it needs more than two people, let's get so and so and so and so"?  But you leave it to him, he comes with complete strangers to you and you don't question that.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: He did not mention the names of the people beforehand, he said:  "I am going to look for two people".  Now as my Commander, I knew that he would come with important people for the purpose of conducting an order.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you went only for one day to look at this farm?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What time of day was it?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I think it was midday.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you attacked, what time of the day?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: We went the same time, that is midday.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but according to the reading I had done, is that you were involved in one incident, would I be right?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And with one incident, you can't recall even just approximately what time you reconnoitred and what time was suitable to attack, you just say during the day.  Wouldn't it be that people would look at a target, make absolutely certain that if we come at this time, the situation would be the same?  Wouldn't that make sense?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That would make sense Sir, that is why I'm saying to you midday hours, it's between one and twelve.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, I thought you said you were done?