Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I wonder, before I ask Hanif to ask questions on our behalf, whether people might want to have a stretch. It is warm, and if you want to, you have sort of two minutes to stand and ...

DR BORAINE: Can I ask everybody to please take up their seats now, we would like to make a start. Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: May I just introduce the people sitting on that side. It is Alison Stent and Janet Cherry, Francis Matthews and Hanif Vally. Hanif is going to be the one who leads you. Thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: Excuse me, Chairperson, I notice that the Deputy Chairperson of the Commission made me take an oath earlier this morning. In the event that other people on the panel have to answer questions, what do we do?

CHAIRPERSON: They can't speak unless they have given us the guarantee that they are going to speak the truth. (Laughter).

UNKNOWN: Maybe we should just allow them all to stand and give that guarantee, Chairperson.

DR BORAINE: Could I ask the colleagues of Mr Mbeki to stand, all together, any of those who are likely to answer any of the questions. Okay. There is one other coming. I am going to put the question for those of you who have any problem about using the "in the name of God", obviously you will simply make an affirmation. I don't want to impose anything on anyone, the choice is yours. So I ask you - if the Chairperson will stop laughing, I will ask you this very serious question.
OATH/

DR BORAINE: Thank you, will you please be seated. Mr Mbeki, if for any reason anyone else needs to be called by you to ask a question, we will obviously take that separately, but I think we seem to be covered now.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Hanif Vally.

MR VALLY: Thank you, Archbishop. I just want to start off by thanking the ANC team and the research team for their detailed response to the questions that we submitted to them. It gave us lots of fruitful thought and as well as raised a number of questions which we need to pose.
I want to start off with a general question, Mr Mbeki. Since the 1980's the ANC has accepted the pre-emptory force of customary international law of - since the beginning, which includes a completely non-derogable ban of torture, genocide, systematic racial or ethnic or religious discrimination, disappearances, forced labour. In the sad history of South Africa, the South Africans had believed that superior orders, be it police, military, revolutionary councils or whatever, is an acceptable defence against individual criminal culpability for these crimes.
What measures has the ANC put into place or planned to put into place so that each soldier, police officer or anyone in the position of authority, is trained and held responsible for any such violation of human rights? I am talking about customary international law.

UNKNOWN: I presume you are talking about the past? Because the ANC has no intention of training any soldiers from now onwards.

MR VALLY: Well, that's regarding soldiers, but especially regarding soldiers as ANC is the government, but the principle being, what is your position regarding customary international law and its applicability, both before the elections and subsequent to the elections?

UNKNOWN: Well, I think your assessment is correct. The ANC has, throughout its existence, accepted those particular precepts. We referred for instance, to the instance in which we acceded to the Geneva Conventions governing the humanitarian conduct of war. It was consistent, consistent with our adherence to those particular principles.
In the ordinary normal regular training programmes of the ANC, in all our military camps, ever since we have had Umkhonto weSizwe, these matters about the purpose, the purpose for which people take up arms, the attitude to persons, the attitude to life - I am sure, Mr Vally, you have also done some military training, even the detail of the manner in which a soldier should approach the handling of weapons, of explosives, this kind of thing, because these things cause death and should not cause death incidentally, unintentionally and so on.
So I am saying the entire training of our cadres focused in part on this particular issue, because you wanted a soldier, a combatant, who was a combatant who was at the same time a representative of the organisation, a representative of the humanitarian traditions and perspectives of the organisation. So I am quite sure that if we had the possibility - I don't know whether we have done this - to provide manuals, to provide you with manuals of our training, you would see that this element in terms of our work was contained.
In pursuit of this, we also had interaction with the United Nations Commission for Human Rights, to look at what they do in terms of their own teaching, with regard to police forces, military forces, to incorporate within those sorts of cultures, these notions about human rights and as I say the precepts that you pursue.
So as the ANC, we clearly would want to ensure that that kind of tradition continues into government now. I am sure that even in the conduct of the police service now, in particular, because of its interaction with the people, there would be less incidence of torture.
I know of certain instances when the Minister of Safety and Security has arrived at police stations without warning, precisely to check on this matter, to talk to detainees as to what was happening to them during the course of their interrogation.

MR VALLY: Thank you, Mr Mbeki. What I want to do is, go directly into the issue of alleged human right violations in ANC camps, when the ANC was still in exile.
We had a look at the annexures you kindly provided us with, the Stewart Commission, the Skweyiya Commission, the Motsunyane Commission. We also had a look at the Douglas Commission. We are aware of the ANC's position regarding the Douglas Commission, but we thought it is important to look at this Commission to compare the information contained therein with regards to the allegations set out therein and compare it to the other commissions.
I want to ask you some questions, firstly, regarding certain details given to us in your second submission. In your confidential appendix there is reference to 22 members of the ANC who were executed between 1982 and 1985, on orders of a tribunal. Now relating to this, I need to ask a number of questions. Firstly, what evidence was required, what prima facie evidence was required before such a person would be accused of any offence of this nature, which will result in that person possibly being executed?