Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-23

WOUTER J BASSON: Well Mr Burger's members, if I refer to the members of Region 6 I'm referring to them, they had distanced themselves uncoupled for a period of six months, but in fact they had not really established credible coverage or a cover because for instance, Mr Matthysen's, that aspect wasn't credible and there was a lot of emphasis on the need for people to establish themselves in their own civilian careers and professions because I think there was still a lot of curiosity in respect of their activities.  It was very important that they attend to that issue.  So to sum up, the long term planning for Region 6 was to establish itself and then to a lesser extent to become involved in operational activities?

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes, the establishment and the cover, that's the so-called Blue Plan?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And the activities in respect of the promotion of the objectives of the CCB, that was the so-called Red Plan?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Now we won't go into the Red Plans and the Blue Plans and the red pages etcetera, but all those facilities were created and finance was made available to the members, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Just as a point of interest, did you also have a Blue Plan?

WOUTER J BASSON: I also had a Blue Plan, but as a result of my activities I was very, very busy ...(intervention)

MR P DU PLESSIS: With the Red Plan?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, with the handling of people.  It's not an easy job, it takes a lot of time to drive around and - I had a Blue Plan, but I don't think it was a very credible Blue Plan.  I lived a life of a hermit and I broke all ties with friends.  I tried to prevent people asking me "What are you doing?"

MR P DU PLESSIS: Because you had to disappear from the military scene?

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct.  At that stage I had already disconnected from the South African Defence Force.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Now what was your so-called Blue Plan?

WOUTER J BASSON: I sold vacuum cleaners.

MR P DU PLESSIS: After the course was completed did you do anything to promote the Red Plan of the members?  Tell us what happened then.

WOUTER J BASSON: Please repeat the question.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So the people were activated, apart from the long term project and the Blue Plan for the long term, what was done in respect of the activities of the CCB?  Did you provide intelligence for instance, or was intelligence and information got from the various members?  What happened?

WOUTER J BASSON: By virtue of my appointment I was the only link with the organisation and as a result of that I had to deal with the project and the financial aspects.  As far as the intelligence part of it is concerned, I was also the link and most of the liaison took place in co-operation with Mr Burger, who in terms of seniority was my Manager and I resorted under him, so we had very close contact.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You talk about administrative functions, that would also be the handling of project files?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, that's correct, and also the financial file.

MR P DU PLESSIS: You referred to intelligence liaison, was there a channel through which you could get information from the members?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, there was a person by the name of Derek, he had come from intelligence structures at Head Office, Special Forces Head Office.  I didn't know him before the time but he was the only person who at that stage had been recruited and who had to move between all these various regions and provide them with information or make enquiries and confirmation.  He had to deal with all of that.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Did you have any understanding of where he was supposed to get the information from?  ..(transcriber's interpretation)

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, I was aware of the fact - well the documentation I saw in his possession, indicated that he used existing military bodies, which included Special Forces Intelligence structures as well as Division of Military Intelligence structures.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Were there any other State structures involved?

WOUTER J BASSON: I'm not aware of any other Intelligence Services which we used.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Was any reference made on a hearsay basis to the fact that there was liaison, contact with other Intelligence Services?

WOUTER J BASSON: Well it was never admitted to me, I was to some extent aware of Mr Verster's capacity by virtue of his contacts with, perhaps the Security Police or whoever, that he had the capacity in that direction.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Now just to focus a little bit more closely on the projects and the events for which you are asking for amnesty ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just before you move there.  What about National Intelligence?

WOUTER J BASSON: National Intelligence was never mentioned by name, it was never mentioned that there was contact with them by name.  I don't want to exclude it totally but I can only speculate to say that there was possibly some contact, but I can't confirm it.

MR LAX: So just to confirm this, you never had any direct contact with those structures?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, as a ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Only Derek?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, that's correct.  As a result of my appointment I was actually prohibited from having contact with the official bodies and institutions.

MR P DU PLESSIS: And that would also include the South African Police?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, the official bodies.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Let us now deal with the specific events for which you ask for amnesty.  This was just to give a bit of background as to your general activities.  There's already been confirmation of the fact that you obtained intelligence via the intelligence channels in respect of certain people, and that included Mr Gavin Evans, is that correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, that's correct.  I obtained a list, I'm not sure where it came from, I got it from this Derek person.  Priority persons were on this list, there was a whole page of people and Mr Evans' name was amongst these names on the list and the project was activated in that way, as a result of a person's name appearing on the list.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Were you personally aware of that information or did you get other information via the intelligence channels relating to, for instance, Mr Evans?

WOUTER J BASSON: Now the name was discussed between myself and Mr Burger and we decided to choose this name and ...(intervention)

MR P DU PLESSIS: The point is, did you know what Gavin Evans stood for, or was it just a name which didn't mean anything to you?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, it was not familiar to me, it was unknown to me.  I'm not sure whether it was completely unknown to me, but I didn't know anything about the person - in other words, the information available.  In other words information was provided to me, it was a stack of computer print-outs about as high as this stash in front of me ...(intervention)

MR P DU PLESSIS: You're referring to about nine inches of bundle of documents?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.  I perused these documents and it dealt with his movements, his contact with various people and the ...(intervention)

MR P DU PLESSIS: And the organisation?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, and not even referring to the ECC connections with Joe Dak and with the Five Freedoms Forum, I think.  I can't remember a lot of detail, but it was available.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So there was a lot of information about Mr Evans?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, and I think this information came from a military body, a military institution.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Were you told by Mr Louw that Mr Evans was a priority figure at the South African Defence Force?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.  Yes, he told me that in terms of his activities at the End Conscription Campaign, there's this Mr Evans.  Yes, it was conveyed to me.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Now this information was discussed with Burger, is that correct?