Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-06

WITNESS:   I found that the police were looking for me and I told Madlanduna that the police are looking for me and I had to run away to Ulundi again.

MR MACADAM: [Break in recording] ... police were looking for you?

WITNESS:   The South African Police.

MR MACADAM: For what reason?

WITNESS:   After the killings in KwaNjokogase.

MR MACADAM: Where in Ulundi did you go to?

WITNESS:   At the township called Kwa(?) A(?) and the barracks which normally accommodated police.  I stayed there.  One man by the name of M R Mkhize came and he was complaining that people are being attacked or killed at Esikhaweni, Empangeni and I was also asked to come and assist because people were getting attacked and I did agree, because ... (intervention)

MR MACADAM: Mr Dlamini, the Commission will have - hear evidence later concerning Esikhaweni so we don't need you to tell us what transpired in Esikhaweni at this stage, but what

MR MACADAM: /I want

MR MACADAM: 1B I want to clarify with you is that you indicted to me when I was asking questions about the training that you received in that strange camp after you were taken from Ulundi to this place in an aeroplane, you indicated or I got the impression that you were conveying that at a later stage, once you had returned to South Africa there were some form of other training.  Did I understand you correctly, or not?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MACADAM: Could you explain to us what this other training was all about?

WITNESS:   It was training to kidnap people, that if you are armed, you were taught how to kidnap the person and the way to find the particular person and the easiest ways to kill and the sensitive spots which, if you stabbed the particular person and then you had the chance to shoot the person.

MR MACADAM: Sorry, Mr Translator, he said ... [break in recording].

MR NTSEBEZA: (?)   Through the interpretations.  You mentioned sensitive areas.  What do you do to the sensitive areas in order that a person should die quickly?

WITNESS:   Beside shooting a person, there's some ways which you can use to kill a person.  These veins which are connected to the heart, so there is a way to stab a person besides shooting the person to - you can stab the person into sensitive areas to kill him instead of shooting him.

MR MACADAM: When did that training take place, firstly?

WITNESS:   It took place after we came back from Caprivi and were inside the country at a place called Venda.  I was trained there after I was injured.

MR MACADAM: By whom were you trained?

WITNESS:   It was Mr - it's a white man who was known as JP to us.

MR MACADAM: /Had

MR MACADAM: 1B Had you seen this person before anywhere?

WITNESS:   We were with him at Caprivi and he was one of the instructors.

MR MACADAM: And you say, "We received this training in Venda".  Who else was there other than yourself?

WITNESS:   The whole of the offensive group were getting the exercise, excluding(?) myself.

MR MACADAM: I've got no further questions to the witness, Mr Chairperson.

MR MACADAM: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MACADAM

DAVID PHILIP ZWELI DLAMINI: (?)   Mr Dlamini, you mentioned that after you had become a special constable, a constable, you were posted to Mpumalanga and then you took part in an attack on the instructions of who you call Madlanduna, I think it is the same - Mr Luthuli.  Now can you give more detail about that particular attack?

WITNESS:   I have explained that there was intensive violence at a place called KwaNjokogase and people from that area were running to the IFP people to ask for help and they contacted Madlanduna and Madlanduna asked me to try and help because people were coming with complaints so I tried to help.

DAVID PHILIP ZWELI DLAMINI: That's exactly what I want you to say.  What - when you say you attempted to help, just tell us what you did.

WITNESS:   I went to the area to kill all the people who were attacking these people who were running to us.

DAVID PHILIP ZWELI DLAMINI: Did you kill any people and how many people did you kill?

WITNESS:   Many things happened.  Some of them got injured, some died.  I can't remember the number, because I used to do this and ran away.

DAVID PHILIP ZWELI DLAMINI: Is your evidence that you don't know how many people you killed, but there were quite a number?  You don't know

DAVID PHILIP ZWELI DLAMINI: /how

DAVID PHILIP ZWELI DLAMINI: 1B how many people were injured, there were quite a number?

WITNESS:   Yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: (?)   You said that before you were shot, you were asked the question by Mr Macadam how many such attacks had taken place and I think the figure that was mentioned was three.  Is that correct?   In the Pietermaritzburg area.

WITNESS:   Yes, that's correct.

YASMINE SOOKA: [Break in recording] ...?

WITNESS:   That's correct.

PROF MAGWAZA: (?)   Mr Dlamini, my understanding is that you were trained to play an offensive role in your attacks, but each time you talk about the attacks, you come across as though you played the defensive role.  You said, "Our people were being assaulted".  You said, "When UDF hit us, we also hit".  How did you see your role?  Was it was offensive or defensive?

WITNESS:   My work was, I could say it was offensive or to kill anything which was there.

PROF MAGWAZA: So you played both the offensive and the defensive role?

WITNESS:   No.  I was only doing the offensive part, the killing part.

MR NTSEBEZA: (?)   Thank you, Mr Chairman, just one clarifying question.  Mr Dlamini, earlier on you referred to Sergeant Zuma who was supplying weapons.  Which office was he?

INTERPRETER: May you please repeat that last part of the question?

MR NTSEBEZA: Sergeant Zuma was referred to as the one who was issuing weapons to Mr Dlamini and other people.  What I want to find out, the office in which he was working.

WITNESS:   He was as the KwaZulu Police.

MR NTSEBEZA: In which office he was based?  Mpumalanga,

MR NTSEBEZA: /Pietermaritzburg,

MR NTSEBEZA: 1B Pietermaritzburg, Durban?

WITNESS:   At Mpumalanga, Hammarsdale.

MR NTSEBEZA: MR   (?): Mr Dlamini, how long were you in the Pietermaritzburg area for on that particular series of occasions when you were involved in those attacks?

WITNESS:  We were not many, we were just two at that time.

MR NTSEBEZA: The question was how long were you there for?

WITNESS:  About a month.  We are - we're in one member of Legislature(?) in Ulundi, we were in this gentleman's house and he was a member of the Legislature.

MR NTSEBEZA: Who was that person?

WITNESS:   The name just slipped away.  I'll remember it as soon as possible.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you.  How many people did you kill in Pietermaritzburg?

WITNESS:   Many.

MR NTSEBEZA: More than five, more than ten, more than twenty?

WITNESS:  Maybe about twenty, because we used to attack and run away.

MR NTSEBEZA: These were men, women, children?   What sort of people ... [break in recording]?

WITNESS:   It was young - young men, not women.

MR NTSEBEZA: 2A When you were in Pietermaritzburg, who were you reporting to?

WITNESS:   I used to report to Madlanduna in Hammarsdale.

MR NTSEBEZA: And who were you - somebody must have been telling you what areas to work in and who to liaise with and how to know who your targets were.  Who was that?

WITNESS:   It was Madlanduna.

MR NTSEBEZA: Do you know who gave him his information?

WITNESS:   I don't know.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you.  Just one follow up question.  How do you know the people you killed or shot at or attacked were

MR NTSEBEZA: /only

MR NTSEBEZA: 2A only young men?

WITNESS:   Because it used to be reported in the news that so many people died in that place.

MR LYSTER: Mr Stewart, is there anything you want to add or lead your client on?

MR STEWART: No, there's nothing.  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.