Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-19

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Mr Chairperson, I left it to his discretion.  I told him that he should just do anything, even if you just kick a building over, just do something.  I also told him to concentrate on the communication and on the Eskom installations, concentrate thereon but if you don't get there, do what your hand finds to do but just do something.  I gave him an open hand to continue with acts of terror.

MR LOUBSCHER: Did you give him an indication in terms of the regulation with which these acts of terror had to take place?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Chairperson, I incited him to hit as many targets as possible and to damage as many properties as possible and to act as widely as possible, and I congratulated him when he did so.

MR LOUBSCHER: In general, were you satisfied with the work that the three men did?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I was very satisfied, Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Kriel, did you ever - from the instructions that you gave Mr Labuschagne and the acts which they committed, did you ever gain personally from this?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: This instruction which you conveyed to Mr Labuschagne, was it given because of personal malice or anger towards anybody?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: How did it come about that these acts of terror came to an end?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: We were arrested early in February 1994.

MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Loubscher.  Mr Taka, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR TAKA: Yes, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Kriel, you say that these acts came when you were arrested in February 1994, is that correct?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That's correct.

MR TAKA: In other words, if you had not been arrested you would have continued with your acts of terror?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I would for sure, ja.

MR TAKA: I didn't hear nicely.

CHAIRPERSON: The answer was that he would have continued with the acts of terror if he had not been arrested.

MR TAKA: The charges that appear in the document here, were you also involved in some of them or did you only give instructions to Labuschagne?  Were you personally involved for instance, in Wesselsbron, Viljoenskroon and so on?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, I did not accompany them to Viljoenskroon or Wesselsbron.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you accompany them on any of the operations reflected?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, I did not accompany them on any of these operations.

MR TAKA: What were your express instructions to Labuschagne regarding committing acts of terror?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: My explicit instructions to Mr Labuschagne was that he must continue with acts of terror and I told him that he has to concentrate specifically on the railway trains and on Eskom, but along the road according to his discretion, if he saw any targets then he had to address them according to his discretion.

MR TAKA: Did you place any limitations on his activity?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, Chairperson, I just requested that they concentrate on the trains and on Eskom but furthermore I did not place any limitation on any of their acts.

MR TAKA: Did you also give them expressly the instruction to target black townships of ANC supporters?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I gave explicit instructions to attack any other target which they deemed necessary.  I did not say black townships in detail but that was included because I told them: "Do whatever your hands find to do, just go and do it."  And I wish to say that by implication I did say that they should attack townships because they would have understood it in this way.

MR TAKA: So with regard to black townships you did not expressly say so, it was by implication, if I understand you correctly?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, I had no problem that they would place bombs in black communities.  If they placed on in Welkom and Ama Xhosa House, I have no problem with it because it's an act of terror which addresses our problem. It was the same as the Church Street bomb, a Boer or some person would walk past, that is an act of terror.  I do not want to sit here and colour a nice picture for you, it was terrorism.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry to interrupt, Mr Taka.
	We've heard from Mr Labuschagne that there was a degree of limitation placed on him in that he had an instruction not to kill or injure, did you in any way place a limitation of that on him?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, Chairperson, we did discuss it.  Our plan of action was that we would concentrate on transport, trains and these places, that we would not go out, we felt that is was not within our area to go and kill people and shoot people.  We agreed to that, but I do not want to sit here today as the Angel of the Light and make as if we were angels.  People could have been killed, that is indeed so.

MR TAKA: So if I understand you correctly, your instruction was choose a target, kill if possible, injure if possible, there are acts of terrorism?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Chairperson, the proposition that was put to my client was somewhat unfair, that the instruction was kill if possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Well it was put to him but it was for Mr Kriel to answer it.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Chairperson, it doesn't help that I'm sitting here - look, we went, it was a war, there was a war for freedom, people could have died.  You know Mr Chairperson, you can ask a question: I did not want to do this or I did not want to do that.  You know how it is with these types of hearings and I don't want to commit myself to this.  The fact of the matter is we planted bombs, we committed acts of terror and not to sit here today and say we did not want to kill people, it's not entirely true.  It is with regard to the truth here, Mr Chairperson.
	If you would grant me, we requested many detainees and with Doctor Piet Meyer and Doctor - I've forgotten his name now, we tried very hard to work on a programme of reconciliation but I am bitter because the TRC did not participate in this party although the soldiers in prison made their peace but the politicians outside did not make peace because the soldiers are being prosecuted in prison today and politicians like Viljoen sit comfortably in government now and that is my problem.  But I do not want to hide behind the, we did these things and it is here and we have to talk about it.  	I think very little has been done in terms of  reconciliation in this country.

MR TAKA: So it would be wrong if anyone says: "Mr Kriel said we should not injure or kill"?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Can you repeat the question please?

MR TAKA: It will not be totally correct if anyone says: "Mr Kriel gave us express instructions not to kill and not to cause bodily injury"?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, Chairperson, I told everybody to go over to acts of terror.  I think there were people who killed people according to my instructions, I don't know.  I had meetings, I spoke, I gave speeches, I had meetings at houses, I told them: "Continue with acts of terror, go and fight."  I don't know how many incidents happened because of what I may have said and because of my instructions and my incitement of these people.  I could probably never determine it.

MR TAKA: Mr Kriel, do you feel that the leadership of the organisations to which you belonged have betrayed you in the process?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Can you please repeat, I'm a little deaf.

MR TAKA: Do you feel that leadership of the organisations to which you belonged, have betrayed you in one way or the other and if so, can you perhaps explain to the Committee?