Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-17

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes some of them knew that, yes I did tell them that.

MR STEENKAMP: During this briefing before the incident did you tell them that?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes as far as I can remember I did say that.

MR STEENKAMP: You see there's also a statement of Mr Engelbrecht on page 55.  This is a statement, Mr Chairman, of Joshua Engelbrecht and I'm specifically referring the Committee to page 57.  Do you see paragraph 9.1?  Mr Chairman, this is very badly photocopied, I do apologise for this.  It's paragraph 9.1.
	Can you see that?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you see the heading there - "During the briefing Captain de Ru gave the following information" can you see that?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: And what catches my attention here is that not one of the members, including Mr Engelbrecht, in any of their affidavits mention that you would have said to them that these people are trained MK members and terrorists who were armed.  No one says that except yourself.  Why do you think that is so?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I cannot explain that.

MR STEENKAMP: If you could possibly just go and look, I do not want to waste your time, I would just like to refer you to the statements of the families involved in this incident and I would like to focus your attention on the statement of Mr P.J. Kabokoane.  Mr Chairman, this is on page 248.
	Have you got that in front of you?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, specifically paragraph 5.  	You see the person who is making the statement is one of the deceased's brother, Mr Pako Johannes Kabokoane.  I would like to read paragraph 5 to you if you could just comment on that
"I state categorically that my brother had nothing to do with politics.  He was not a member of any political organisation.  I am not aware of him having had any friends who were political activists."
What is your comment on that?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No, I cannot comment on that.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you give an explanation why this person under oath would say something like this if it's not correct?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No I cannot.

MR STEENKAMP: Then I would like to refer you to page 244 Mr Chairman and specifically paragraph 8 on page 246, Mr Chairman.  Have you got the paragraph Sir?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Can I just read it to you?
"My family and the deceased were not political activists.  Neither I, my family or family members including the deceased belonged to any political party or organisation.  To the best of my knowledge the deceased's friends were also not involved in politics."
This person, independent of the other family say the same thing.  Can you give an explanation for that?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No I cannot.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you give any reason why they would say this?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No I cannot comment on that.

MR STEENKAMP: Then in conclusion, I would like to refer you to the statement ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you do, for the sake of the record perhaps we should record that that person was the deceased's uncle because it was his sister's son.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'm indebted to you.  Mr Chairman, I would like to refer you to page 241 of the same record and specifically dealing with paragraph 3 and this is a statement by the mother, Mrs Mabosotho Johanna Makhanya.
	Can you see paragraph 3, that is on page 241?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: I'm reading paragraph 3 for you in the record.
MR DE RU
"Neither the family nor the deceased or any of his friends were politically active.  The deceased did not belong to any political organisation, he did not participate or attend political gatherings or meetings.  I am quite sure about this."
Can you see that?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes I can.

MR STEENKAMP: Have you got any comment on that?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No.

MR STEENKAMP: Once again, can you give an explanation why an independent member of the deceased would say something like this under oath?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No I cannot comment on that.

CHAIRPERSON: Once again, I think for the sake of the record, it should be recorded that all these three passages appear in affidavits taken in November 1997.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman then I would like to refer the Committee to page 229.   Have you got it in front of you?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes.

MR STEENKAMP: This is a document that was drafted by the Attorney General of the Free state, dated 21 July 1994 and signed by him.  This is now in response to certain submissions or representations that was made by Mr De Ru the applicant to the then Minister of Justice and I would like to refer you to paragraph 4.2.  I would just like to read it to you. The relevance of this must be seen in the light of your own evidence in chief, I would like to read 4.2 to you for your comment
"That although the deceased were members of a gang involved in illegal activities, there is no evidence that they had previously committed armed robberies and especially no evidence that they were involved in the killing of policemen two weeks prior to the incident as alleged by the accused."
Is that correct?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No, this is the state's information.  I cannot comment on this.

MR STEENKAMP: Did you take any steps when you now found out that the deceased were MK members?  Did you contact anyone in the head office of the Security Branch or any police officer?  Did you inform anyone that these members of this group were trained MK terrorists.  Did you inform anyone about this fact?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Just for the Security Branch?

MR STEENKAMP: No, I'm talking specifically about the security branch, but I'm talking about any other police officer.

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Colonel Swanepoel who was the District Commander, Lieutenant Botha who was a member of the Security Branch in Vereeniging as well as - I think his rank was then Warrant Officer Coetzee of the Security Branch.

MR STEENKAMP: I would just like to get some clarity.  The question turns about the single fact that when you knew that these members were MK terrorists, did you convey this specific fact to them?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes I did mention it to them.

MR STEENKAMP: And what was their reaction?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: They never gave feedback that they confirmed that they were terrorists.

MR STEENKAMP: Do you not find it strange?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No it is not strange.

MR STEENKAMP: You've got now three trained MK terrorists in your area, you contact your superiors and they do not come back to you and say we need more people or we have to sort this out with head office, this is out of our territory.  They do not even report back to you?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No it was not strange to me.

MR STEENKAMP: Did you ever do anything to confirm the fact or with the information that you had that these members were trained MK soldiers, did you do anything to confirm this?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No, I believed what Fouche said to me and I did nothing about this.  I could possibly give clarity about this - I did not have the full details, Fouche did not say, he just gave me their first names and one name I can remember is Tyson, so I think it's very difficult to just on a name or an alias get any further information on that.

MR STEENKAMP: Is there a reason why you never confirmed this or took steps to confirm it to make sure whether these people were really trained MK terrorists.

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No there's no specific reason.

MR STEENKAMP: You cannot explain it?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Except like I've told you all that I knew was this was their call names, they way they were called, I had no other particulars of them.  I didn't have their I.D. numbers, I did not have their full names, nothing.