Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I don't remember the exact date, it was somewhere in 1993.

MR JOHNSON: This person Jikila, do you know if he was a member of any other political organisation at that stage?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I did not know him.  The people who came with information were those who were working ...(indistinct - mike not on) and one of them is Booysen Motsamai.

MR JOHNSON: Now this person Jikila, where was he tortured?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: He was tortured at Fountain Security Branch office.

MR JOHNSON: On whose instructions was he tortured?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Luit Landman's instructions, Chairperson.

MR JOHNSON: Can you remember what form of information you wanted to extract from him?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: He was not alone, there were many people.  There was information which we received whilst we were working in Transkei, looking for Happy Mphahlele.

MR JOHNSON: And is that the nature of the information which you wanted to extract from this person called Jikila?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: It was not only about that particular issue, but it was also in regard to the people who were involved in the burning of the farm houses.

MR JOHNSON: At that stage, can you remember how long Mr Jikila was tortured for, what period of time?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: He was tortured approximately, or he was detained at Botshabelo police station.  He was fetched four times, then all those four times he was tortured.

MR JOHNSON: Were you present at all of these incidents all four times?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: That is correct Chairperson, I was the one who had gone to fetch him from Botshabelo Police station and bring him to Fountain police station.

MR JOHNSON: And in what way was Mr Jikila tortured?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: He was tortured by being hand cuffed and leg cuffed and covered with a blanket and hitting him with fists and being slapped.

MR JOHNSON: Was he also tortured by means of this tube that was put over his face?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: That is correct, Chairperson, I was the main role player in the tubing effort, so I did that to him.

MR JOHNSON: Can you remember how many times did you put this tube over his face so that he suffocated?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Six to seven times, Chairperson.

MR JOHNSON: After Mr Jikila was tortured, do you know what happened to him, was he released or not?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I don't know what happened to him because they were detained under Section 21, I think there were approximately 20 to 25 people.

MR JOHNSON: Do you know if Mr Jikila at any stage suffered any physical injuries during these tortures?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I did not know Chairperson.

MR JOHNSON: Did you speak to Mr Jikila after this incident?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Yes, Chairperson.

MR JOHNSON: When was that?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: It is somewhere in 1994 and 1995.

MR JOHNSON: Did he recognise you as the person who tortured him?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: That is correct Chairperson because he knew me even before.

MR JOHNSON: Did you apologise to him concerning these incidents where you tortured him?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Yes, I met with him whilst I was going to the bank, then we had a discussion with him, then he said there's no problem.  We went to a radio interview.  He's a friendly person.

MR JOHNSON: And did he accept your apology?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: That is correct, Chairperson, he accepted my apology.

MR JOHNSON: I refer the Committee to pages of the bundle, pages 11 through to 13, which would be the typed and hand-written statement of this person named Jikila in which he confirms that.  As it pleases the Committee.
Mr Choane, have you spoken to Mr Choane after this incident?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: No, Chairperson, I did not.

MR JOHNSON: Is that indeed Mr Choane sitting across the room?

MR CHOANE: Choane, Abel Choane.

MR JOHNSON: Sorry, Mr Choane.

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR JOHNSON: Do you wish to apologise to Mr Choane about what happened to him?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: That is correct, Chairperson.  I wanted to meet him but I did not know where he was.

MR JOHNSON: Would you apologise to him now whilst he's sitting there?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR JOHNSON: Do that please.  Tell him that you're sorry.

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I want to tell Abel Choane that I am sorry.  May you please forgive me?  This was the political situation, we were forced and there was nothing to do.  Things have changed now and I am sorry.

MR JOHNSON: Now then at what stage, or how did it happen that you were not a member of this unit Askari at the end of the day anymore?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: There was a meeting at Vlakplaas where Eugene de Kock addressed us and he told us that the unit was being dismantled and they will organise that we get the packages.

MR JOHNSON: And did you then receive such a package?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Yes, I did.

MR JOHNSON: Is there anything else at this stage that you would want to bring under the Committee's attention concerning any violations of Human Rights which you want to apply for amnesty for?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Yes, I just want to know whether it's possible for the Committee to go to the farm where we used to work, just to point it out.  There is no farmhouse anymore, all the stores that were there have been broken down, but the farm is still there.

MR JOHNSON: If the Committee would want you to show them, they will ask you to go and show them the farm, but is there anything else that you want to make public to the Committee concerning any violations of human rights?  Other people which you remember which were tortured or whatever?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Yes, there are many of them, I do not even know their names, as far as Transkei.

MR JOHNSON: Were these all people that were tortured whilst you were a member of Askari?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Yes.

MR JOHNSON: Do you remember any other specific persons except Choane and Jikila, do you remember the names?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I do not recall their names, but I could identify them.

MR JOHNSON: Can you remember approximately how many other people were tortured during your stay at Askari?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: Many people of the PAC who were in Ficksburg and those who were here in Bloemfontein.

MR JOHNSON: Concerning your application, I just want to make sure about certain points.  On page 1 of your application which I will show to you at this stage, you make mention in paragraph 8(b) that you were a constable from 1989 to 1993 with your force number, the date of 1989, is that correct Sir?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: No, it is not correct.  We were still Askaris at that time, we had not yet been appointed.

MR JOHNSON: Yes, but if I understand your testimony correctly, you only were recruited by Askari in plus minus 1991, around there, is that correct?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: That is correct.

MR JOHNSON: Those are the only questions to the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JOHNSON

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Johnson.  Mr Samuel, any questions at this juncture?

MR SAMUEL: Mr Chairperson, yes I do have a few questions, thank you.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Thejane when was Abel Choane arrested by the Security Forces?

SELLO DAVID THEJANE: I do not know when was he arrested.  I don't know what do you mean by his arrest.

MR SAMUEL: If I understood you correctly, you mentioned that you tortured him, or you were present during the torture after he was arrested and if my understanding is correct, that according to your testimony is after his brother had disclosed his whereabouts to be in Welkom.

JUDGE DE JAGER: I don't think he said his brother disclosed anything.  They tortured his brother for hours on and his brother said:  "He's somewhere around, I don't know where."

CHAIRPERSON: Probably in Welkom, but he never disclosed.

MR SAMUEL: I beg your pardon Mr Chairperson.  When you tortured Mr Abel Choane, where had he been arrested prior to the torture?