Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-14

MS THABETHA: Mr Chair this morning we will proceed with the matter of Nkgwedi, Leeuw, May and Magoda.
	I think I should put it on record that yesterday night I got a call from Mr van der Merwe who said he was only told on Friday that he isn't presenting Mr Phelane in the Jack   Menera matter that we were doing yesterday so I have given him an opportunity to listen to the record to the matter which was going on yesterday and to confront with his client and as soon as he is finished with that we will proceed with his matter.

JUDGE WILSON: We will now be proceeding before the same panel as before that is myself Wilson, Judge Ngoepe and Mr de Jager with the matter of Daniel Magoda application No. 732/96 and three others, Applications No. 190/96, 5176/97 and 5175/97.
ADV. MTHEMBU: May I call inspector De La Rey. Thank you.
ADV. DE JAGER: Could you please stand and take the oath.
INSP. DE LA REY: (Duly sworn in, states).

MS THABETHA: Insp. De La Rey we have informed you of the affidavit that was handed into the hearings concerning the matter of Mr Nkgwedi, Magoda, May and Leeuw. We have given you an opportunity to have a look at the affidavit that you yourself wrote and would like you in front of the Committee Members to confirm that all the contents in this affidavit are what actually happened and all the items that we found in the respective applicants were items that were found by you and your other officials who were together with you. Is that correct?
INSP. DE LA REY: That is correct I confirm the content of the statement as correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Can you maybe give a background to who the other officers you were with on that day?
INSP. DE LA REY: Chairperson, the investigation team was consisting of myself, members of the Murder and Robbery Unit in Bloemfontein as well as members of Murder and Robbery Unit in Welkom.
ADV. MTHEMBU: If Mr Chair can bear with me I can't find the translation in this . . .
ADV. DE JAGER: Mr De La Rey if you look to Page 13 of your statement you say that you introduce yourself to the suspect Mishek May and there you found a few things.
INSP. DE LA REY: Mr Chairperson that is correct. After the person introduced him as Mishek May I identified myself to him and then I asked him certain questions. Yes, I had a look and I found these things on him. Yes that is correct.
ADV. DE JAGER: And in the next paragraph it is said that certain things were handed to you by Sgt. van der Watt.
INSP. DE LA REY: That is correct.
ADV. DE JAGER: In Paragraph 17 you accompanied the suspects. Is that correct?
INSP. DE LA REY: Yes, that is correct.
ADV. DE JAGER: Then in Paragraph 19 certain articles were shown to you?
INSP. DE LA REY: Yes, that is correct.
ADV. DE JAGER: Was it found in a house?
INSP. DE LA REY: Yes, that is correct, that was in suspect No. 3's in his, the wife that lived with him, it was in her Grandmother's house.
ADV. DE JAGER: And after that you visited another house where you found another bag.
INSP. DE LA REY: That is correct, Chairperson, that was the home of accused No. 3's wife, or the wife that lived with him that was her parent's house.
ADV. DE JAGER: And you also found stuff like sweets and so forth? Now, what did you find in the vehicle, the motor vehicle?
INSP. DE LA REY: Mr Chairperson, if you look at Paragraph 25 of my statement there I put it out from Item 1 to 7, it was a brown bag with certain equipment then also an overall, a blue shirt, 4, a khaki shirt, 5 it was an Hitachi Sanding machine, 6 was a hammer and there was possible paint on the hammer and then also two keys with the name on it "Post" and "Store".
ADV. DE JAGER: And then also empty beer bottles that was also found.
INSP. DE LA REY: Yes, that is correct.
ADV. DE JAGER:  So none of the previous items where found in the motor vehicle.
INSP. DE LA REY: No, not at all Chairperson.
ADV. DE JAGER: The articles found in the motor vehicle, could you identify it. Were they possessions of the deceased - whom did they belong to?
INSP. DE LA REY: Chairperson, yes, I don't know what evidence is allowed but from the investigation it seemed that the clothing was the possession of the accused and the sanding machine and the hammer and the keys those were the property of the deceased.
ADV. DE JAGER: Was the motor vehicle locked or was it open?
INSP. DE LA REY: No, it was not locked.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Was it during the daytime?
INSP. DE LA REY: Yes, it was in the day.  More or less 10 o'clock in the morning.

JUDGE WILSON: : On that, if you go back to Paragraph 17, or a I think 15, sorry. You start there at 11.20?
INSP. DE LA REY: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: : Was that in the morning?
INSP. DE LA REY: Yes, that is correct, in the morning.

JUDGE WILSON: : Then you go 11.30, 12.05 that would have been midday?
INSP. DE LA REY: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: : And 12.15 is that just after midday?
INSP. DE LA REY: Perhaps if it could be of assistance, everything happened between approximately 10 o'clock in the morning and 3 o'clock in the afternoon that was on the same day that was 14 February.
ADV. DE JAGER: A later day you went to Mr Swanepoel and there you found Kruger Rands and also a cheque?
INSP. DE LA REY: That is correct. That was after the accused have been arrested.
ADV. DE JAGER: Who is this Mr Swanepoel?
INSP. DE LA REY: Chairperson, at that stage he was the owner of Ureka Diamonds in Bloemfontein. They also did transactions in gold as well as old coins.

JUDGE WILSON: : I think my colleague made a slight error there, you didn't find the cheque there, you took the cheque with you didn't you and he identified it?
INSP. DE LA REY: That is correct. I confiscated this cheque at accused No. 3's common law wife parent's house and it was in a bag and I gave the cheque or showed it to Mr Swanepoel and Mr Swanepoel identified it as a cheque that he wrote to a person and then he also gave the two gold coins that was in his possession back to me.

JUDGE WILSON: : So, you arrested accused 1, 2 and 3 in the course of the morning?
INSP. DE LA REY: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: : And accused No. 4 also in the morning?
INSP. DE LA REY: That is quite correct.

JUDGE WILSON: : There is no question of you finding him sleeping in a sitting room of a - living room in a house in the middle of the night?
INSP. DE LA REY: No, Chairperson, although accused No. 2 and 3 were arrested by myself while they were sleeping in a lounge in this room and they were sleeping on the carpet in this house, it was during the day time.

JUDGE WILSON: : It was during the day time?
INSP. DE LA REY: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: : Thank you.
ADV. DE JAGER: A further question. At the top of Page 5 you said that a first aid kit and 13 cassettes that was hidden in an oven in the kitchen?
INSP. DE LA REY: That is correct. I just want to look at the specific paragraph Page 5, it is paragraph 24, the end of paragraph 24. Yes, that is correct. The first aid kit as well as the 13 cassettes were in a cassette holder and it was in the oven in the kitchen.
ADV. DE JAGER: Who owned this?
INSP. DE LA REY: It was the possessions of the deceased.

JUDGE WILSON: : Any further questions?

MS THABETHA: : Inspector De La Rey on paragraph 15 you say you found accused No. 1, 2 and 3 sleeping. I want to ask you a question concerning accused No. 2. So you arrested them. Paragraph 15 . . .

JUDGE WILSON: : . . . (inaudible) you said accused No 1

MS THABETHA: : Accused No. 2, 3 . . .

JUDGE WILSON: : Accused No. 2 and 3, not 1, 2 and 3 . . .

MS THABETHA: : Ok. My mistake, accused No. 2 and 3 whilst they were sleeping - what I want know from you is, did you find anything on accused No. 2.
INSP. DE LA REY: Yes, that is correct. I found a jack knife, no nothing with accused No. 2 but well with regard to accused No. 3 I found a jack knife but nothing with regards to accused No. 2 at that stage.