Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1997-06-23

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I can mention Chair that during that time the Counter-Insurgency Unit did have a base close to Nietverdiend.  There had been a report regarding recruits for terrorism who had accidentally blown themselves up and that these persons would have been people from Pretoria and that someone had in fact been injured.  This was the reason for my personal interest to determine whether any of the people had been injured there.  There had not been any congratulations since, as far as I was concerned, the report had been that these were persons who blew themselves up, accidentally.

MR VISSER: General while we are on that point perhaps it is convenient to deal with that issue straightaway.  First of all reports or situation reports, SITREPS as we know them, from Division Northern Transvaal Security Branch, would that have been forwarded to Counter-Insurgency?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: No Chair this would have gone to the Security Branch head office.

MR VISSER: Did you have sitting on any of the committees which were at the time dealing with unrest and Counter-Insurgency and/or Riot Control?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Yes Chair I did have sitting on the Joint Management System where an deputy minister had been the Chair and a variety of departments had representatives on this body.

MR VISSER: Yes.  The Committee has heard evidence about how the Joint Management System works.  The only question I wish to ask you is this, were there occasions at which Brigadier Cronje was present at a committee meeting where you were also present and where he made reports?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: No Chair, Brigadier Cronje would have had sitting in his division in the Northern Transvaal.

MR VISSER: Lastly are you aware General of reports which came in from Security Branch Northern Transvaal which explicitly referred to incidents and which explicitly reported that the Security personnel had eliminated persons outside the boundaries of the law, unlawfully in other words?  Are you aware of any such reports?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I never saw such a report Chair.

MR VISSER: Did you have sitting on what is known in these inquiries as TREVITS?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I did not know of the existence of something like this until during this investigation I read in the newspaper of the existence and founding of such an organisation as TREVITS.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman perhaps for your convenience may I give you all the references, it's page 108, I haven't got the lines, 108, 154, 478-485 and 498-490 where TREVITS is dealt with.  Now in the evidence there was reference to a "Victor", spelt V-I-C-T-O-R, first of all does that refer to you?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: This could not be me Chair, no.

MR VISSER: Do you know of another person, well apart from your son, which is also V-I-K-T-O-R, but another person whose surname, in the Police, whose surname was spelt V-I-C-T-O-R?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: There is such a person Chair.

MR VISSER: Can you identify such a person as closely as you can?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I think that this person was a Karel, his first name was Karel, who was attached to the Security Branch.

MR VISSER: Would you bear with me a short moment Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you have any idea what this person's rank might have been?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: What his rank might have been at that time Chair, no, I do not know.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman we believe, with respect, that that's the gist of the evidence.  We could go on and make it a fuller presentation but with respect we believe that a proper basis has been laid for sensible cross-examination.  If you agree with that we will have no further questions at this time.
	I am sorry Mr Chairman my attention has just been drawn to another issue Mr Chairman and that is this, in the affidavit I see we have one clear copy here which we are going to hand up to you straightaway Mr Chairman, I wasn't aware that we have a spare copy, but there is also reference to a Jeffrey Sibiya Mr Chairman.  Now perhaps I should just ask the General about that as well.
	General in your affidavit you dealt in paragraph 3 with a person, Jeffrey Sibiya, we have no reference on the evidence on record which we obtained Mr Chairman, so we don't have further and fuller information, but do you know of a Jeffrey Sibiya who was eliminated General, and if so did you have anything to do with his elimination?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I do not know any such a person and I have never known any such a person.  Once again Chair I want to state that if this was one of the persons whom it is claimed were assassinated close to Pienaar's River then I can say again that the first time I heard of this incident was last year roughly in October from General van der Merwe.

MR VISSER: And what was it precisely that you heard?  It had something to do with electric shocks or something.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: That is correct Chair, General van der Merwe mentioned to me that this person or persons had apparently been shocked to death close to the Pienaar's River.  This was the first occasion on which I had heard of such an incident.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman would you prefer as a reference at this stage, to accept my copy.  It is marked but no notes have been made.  My learned friend can inspect it if he wishes, but just as a reference in the meantime.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes would you please hand it in.

MR VISSER: May I add Mr Chairman that I have drawn up a list of page references to other issues which you may wish to - it's one page, we will also make a copy of that and give it to you so that you have a ready reference on the record when you deal with certain subjects.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Perhaps in the meantime I could give you one of these as well.  We attempted for copies to be made but unfortunately we were not successful, I am sorry Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Should the need arise you will be forwarded another opportunity if you think you want to develop any further points that General Viktor has given arising out of the questions.

MR VISSER: We appreciate that Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Currin.

MR CURRIN: Mr Chairman in order not to waste time we have agreed that Mr du Plessis will put his questions first and after that I will review my situation to see whether in fact I have any questions at all.  It depends on what comes out of the
questions which Mr du Plessis puts to the Brigadier.  If that pleases the Committee I think it will be the quicker way of dealing with it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr du Plessis.