Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR SEMENYA: Now, I have had an opportunity to discuss with Reverend Chikane, and my understanding is the formation of the Crisis Committee, why it was even called Crisis Committee was because the house of Mandela was burnt.  Is this consistent with your understanding?

BISHOP STOREY: No, I have no independent knowledge.  So, if, I can't confirm or deny that.  It could be absolutely true.  I've no reason to think it's not true.

MR SEMENYA: The mention of the Crisis Committee, as often as I have seen it, is given in the context that the crisis was the children who were abducted.

BISHOP STOREY: No, no, I was introduced to this group by Mr Chikane.  I had not heard of them before, I had nothing to do with them before, I was not part of any of the Crisis Committee's activities or work prior to this abduction, but when Mr Chikane asked me whether the church would co-operate with, work with and through the community, that was the first time I was introduced to the Crisis Committee.

MR SEMENYA: What I'm trying to establish is up to this point, are you able to tell us why it was called the Crisis Committee?

BISHOP STOREY: No, no, I had no idea why it was called the Crisis Committee.

MR SEMENYA: You don't, you don't even know ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: We were living in perpetual crisis at the time, so it didn't surprise me.

MR SEMENYA: I beg your pardon?

BISHOP STOREY: I said we were living in perpetual crisis at the time, so the use of that word for a Committee would not have been unusual or surprising to me.

MR SEMENYA: And, according to my information, that house was burnt arising out of a dispute that occurred on a soccer field, because some of the other team members were, in fact, schooling in Daliwonga.

BISHOP STOREY: I do not know why the house was burnt.  I know what I assumed when I heard it was burnt.  I assumed it had been, it was an attack by the security police, which I think was a reasonable assumption.  I went to see Mrs Mandela in order to just give her my sympathies.  I found her at her office, and did so.  I then went up to her house to see the damage, and it was while I was standing there that a neighbour informed me that this had not been the work of the security police, but of some schoolchildren, because of, they were taking revenge for activities by, of some of the youths in that house. That's all I know.
 So, I mean, whether that is true, I don't know.  That was what I was told at the, on the day, and I must say, I was shaken, deeply shaken, because that was just something very unexpected.  I was not aware of any background that would have made me expect that kind of thing.

MR SEMENYA: In some of your answers it comes out that children were refused access, I mean, this terminology you use suggests that the movement of the boys was restricted.  In my understanding, it would seem the restriction to their movement that was there was because of Jerry Richardson.

BISHOP STOREY: No, not at all.  My understanding, and it is based, as you correctly said at the outset of your cross-examination, it is based on reports I received from members of the Crisis Committee on their return from the Mandela house, and I want to say that it is quite clear, my recollection is absolutely clear, that the decisions as to whether access would be given, were Mrs Mandela's decisions.  She made the decision, she was the one who said, no, you cannot see them, she was the one who said, yes, you may see them, to the various people who came seeking access to them.

MR SEMENYA: Well, maybe we'll deal with those people when they come.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Let's, I gained an impression from you, though, that, when Jerry Richardson was around, the two boys that you say you were with were scared.

BISHOP STOREY: Oh yes.

MR SEMENYA: And they seemed a little bit more relaxed when he was not on site.

BISHOP STOREY: Without any doubt, and they indicated later, they said, he is the worst of them all.  I didn't know who he was when I first went into that meeting where they were being handed over.  He was a mystery man, but he was somebody one didn't feel very comfortable to be around.

MR SEMENYA: Yes, it would seem that the one of, a definite element we are able to identify why this boys' movement was restricted is Jerry Richardson.

BISHOP STOREY: Only, the only independent evidence I have of that, the only evidence I have of that at all, is that he accompanied them to Krish Naidoo's office on the day they were handed over, and, clearly, he had some role in their freedom or lack of freedom that day.  It seemed to me he was an escort.  However, he took no part in the discussion and, therefore, had no influence on whether those young people were handed over to me or not.  The only influence he had was, at one point, I seem to recall him angrily and impatiently talking about the time, and that this must be got over with.  So, I have no other evidence that he was the one who decided things.

MR SEMENYA: I'm sorry if I had mentioned that he decided anything.  I'm saying he seems to have been an element that had limited the movement of the boys?

BISHOP STOREY: I think one could assume that from his role when I met him, yes.

MR SEMENYA: And in some of the references you'd say Mr Ayob told you that the boys would be released on certain conditions. Did I hear that evidence correctly?

BISHOP STOREY: I would have to be taken back through my document, because there were one or two occasions when Mr Ayob was involved, but on most occasions, as I recall it, he communicated with our attorney, Mr Haysom.  For instance, on Saturday the 14th, he conveyed a message from Winnie, and when on the 16th, I'm just trying to find ... (intervention).

UNKNOWN: Page six.

CHAIRPERSON: Page six.

BISHOP STOREY: Page six.  You would help me if you, sir, could tell me exactly what paragraph in my document you are referring to.

MR SEMENYA: I've scribbled on your evidence here when you are saying ... (intervention).

BISHOP STOREY: Okay.

MR SEMENYA: ... Mrs Mandela would have agreed to release the children on certain conditions.

BISHOP STOREY: Yes, and I'm trying to find that reference in my document.

UNKNOWN: Mr Semenya, I think if you read on page six, it says that,
"Ayob replies that his instructions are that the children must be released unconditionally.".

BISHOP STOREY: Yes, I've got it.  Those, that was conveyed to me by Mr, let's see.
"I was phoned by Mr Haysom. He asked me to prepare accommodation.  Then Xoliswa, Jerry and ...",
that's Richardson,
"... and the, brought the three youths to Ayob.  Ayob was told that before the children were handed over there were certain matters to discuss and conditions.  Ayob replies that his instructions are that they must be released unconditionally.  So, there's a disagreement and they part with the matter unresolved."
Are you asking me where I received that information from?

MR SEMENYA: No, whether your evidence is that Mrs Mandela would have said the children would be released under certain conditions?

BISHOP STOREY: No, I can't say, you know, I can't say that with certainty.  All I can say is that the message conveyed to Mr Ayob was that there were certain conditions, but I have not got in my notes nor do I have an independent recollection that the name of Mrs Mandela was mentioned there.

MR SEMENYA: No, I'm just trying to test the correctness of the language, because to me release on condition was an implicit admission that the people have been restrained.  Now, I'm trying to understand who threw the concept or word "release them" or "hand them over".