bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-11

ADV SANDI: Therefore you were innocent?

VUYANI MNGAZA: Yes, I was acquitted.

ADV SANDI: After that, you left in 1967?

VUYANI MNGAZA: Yes, I had to get an exit permit, because I could not get a passport.  
Fortunately when we were in Grahamstown we smuggled documents to the United 
Nations and my name was in the list of South African cases that were on at the time.  
The Senegal Government said to the French Embassy in East London to give me a 
political asylum in Senegal as I was in the list for the oppressed in South Africa, the 
tortured.

ADV SANDI: So you were in Senegal and other countries?

VUYANI MNGAZA: Yes, from there I went to Senegal where my organisation said I must 
open an office.  From there I went to Nigeria, to Tanzania.  From Tanzania I went to 
Europe.  I stayed in London.  I covered the whole of Europe, Iceland and 
Scandinavian countries working for the organisation.

ADV SANDI: You came back in 1992 without a wife or children?

VUYANI MNGAZA: Yes, I came back alone.  I am still alone.  It was difficult to bring 
back my family, because I have no place to stay.  It is difficult to bring back a family if 
you have no place to stay.

ADV SANDI: You have a request about that?

VUYANI MNGAZA: If the Commission could help me with accommodation so that my 
family can come back.  They cannot come back.  Secondly, I do not know if I should 
proceed.

ADV SANDI: Yes, you may proceed.  Have you applied for a special pension?

VUYANI MNGAZA: That is what I was going to talk about.  I have applied for a special 
pension last year, but there has been no response.  If the Commission could help me 
and urge them along.  It is my sister only to help me.  I do not have transport either.  
Secondly, that the Commission could help me, I need to exhume my son's body who 
passed away in Botswana working for the organisation.  He died in 1992.  I need for 
him to be buried at home.  Fourthly, I think something should be done for freedom 
fighters in terms of a heroes acre.  Our people are all over the African Continent, some 
even in Europe.  If they could be exhumed and buried so that people may be able to 
see their late family members who had fought for liberation.  I think that would help 
people if the TRC could help as well as it is quite expensive.  It is expensive to exhume 
peoples' bodies, but it should be done as a tribute to the fallen heroes.

ADV SANDI: You lost a lot.  You lost your business, you lost your family, your 
family is all over the world.  I am going to, however, hand you over to the Chairperson 
now.  Maybe he has questions for you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for your story.  Mrs Crichton will read a statement 
from Mr Card.  It is a long statement.  I will ask her to hurry.  There are a lot of people 
still to come.  You may step down.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-12

JUNE CRICHTON: Mrs Nondabula, I think, at this point I will hand you back to the Chairperson to see if there are any other questions before I thank you for appearing before us.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you June.  Do you have question to put.  Thank you.  There are no questions.

JUNE CRICHTON: I stand in awe of a person such as yourself who despite the limitations such, something like this has laid on you, that you have still, in the spirit of true womanhood, moved forward with your life, qualified to become a teacher and still want to continue further and, at the same time, are concerned that other children have the opportunity that you have had.  I thank you for your courage for coming here.  I thank you for your tears too, because it helps us to remember just what pain people went through for absolutely no reason at all.  So we thank you and ask you now to step down.  Thank you.  Thank you Madam Chair.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-11

MICHAEL NOTHWALA: In 1979 I was released.  I tried to continue to go back to school.  I did standard seven in Mazomhle in 1980.  In December of that same year my mother died and she left an amount of money.  She told me to continue with my studies.  I went to David Mama to complete standard seven.  After that I could support myself financially.  Even now I do not have parents.  I decided to go and look for work in order to build my home, but even today I am not working.

ADV SANDI: Mr Nothwala, before I hand over to the Chairperson, please tell us briefly what are your requests to the Commission.  Do you need any medical treatment?

MICHAEL NOTHWALA: Yes, I do need medical treatment, because when I was tortured by Mostert and Ncoko I told them that I suffered from asthma.  They did not care about that.  They put a tube in my face and they said that I was going to tell them the truth.  If I was ready to tell them the truth I would step down.  I suffer from asthma.

ADV SANDI: Do you get a disability grant?  Do you get a disability grant?

MICHAEL NOTHWALA: No, I do not.

ADV SANDI: Is that all Mr Nothwala, because if I am looking at your statement it seems that that is all?

MICHAEL NOTHWALA: Yes, that is all.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Nothwala.  Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We would like to thank the four of you for coming before the Commission to give us your testimonies.  I think most of the people, most people in this country, they know Steve Biko.  We had visitors here from America.  They wanted to go and visit Steve Biko's grave, but I think most people are not aware that because you attended Steve Biko's funeral you were tortured this way.  I think the purpose of the Commission is to give a chance to those people who were not known to come forward and to say what happened to them.  We thank you for coming forward and for telling us what had happened to you so that South Africa can know that the people like Steve Biko have contributed in this country and others who are well known have contributed in this country, but there are people whose names are not mentioned.  They have also contributed a lot for the liberation of this country.  We thank you for bringing forward these painful stories to the Commission.
 One person said tomorrow, yesterday that maybe the Commission will not do anything.  It will just hand over a report to the President, but we cannot deny the fact that this process of the Truth Commission has given people a chance to come forward and to tell the whole country about what happened to them.  We thank the four of you and we have noted your requests before us.  Our job is to make a report and forward that report to the President.  He will be the one to decide what to do as he the one who is supposed to take a final decision.  We thank you and we will take a break up until two o' clock.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-11

TOTO NGQEZA: Mr Chairperson, there is nothing new I would like to add except if the Commission would have questions to ask me.  According to my statement I will answer.

MS MAYA: When Deliswa was shot where were you?

TOTO NGQEZA: I was not there, I was at NU7.  I was one of the people that prepared for Thozamile Qoto's funeral, but I told the Comrades that I would not be able to go back to the funeral.  One of the reasons why I was not going to be able to go to the funeral was because the police was aware that I was in the struggle and I did not want to be exposed.  From unit seven in Mdantsane I saw people at the highway.  I asked what was going on.  They said that a Comrade had been shot.  I tried to find out.  Some had said she works at Johnson & Johnson.  The others said they do not know.  As a Johnson & Johnson worker I was interested and wanted to know who it was.  At the end of the day I found out it was Deliswa, my own cousin.  I went home to report as my aunt has just said.

MS MAYA: Thank you.  I am going to hand you over to the Chairperson.  Maybe there are questions.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to ask one question.  Mrs Roxiso, in this written statement you have requests.  You wish the Commission to investigate this matter.  I want to know if it is so, because according to your evidence today you do not want this to be, happen.

PHILDA NOMVULA ROXISO: Well, the perpetrator denied the whole matter even though there were witnesses.  If he could come forward and admit to this act.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mam, thank you Toto for the evidence that you put before us today.  Evidently it is your faith that gave you strength during the hard times.  Thank you for putting forward your evidence in the manner you have done.  I trust that we are going to be able to have access to the inquest records in order to bring this matter to completion.  We may succeed in this, we may not, but we will try.  Thank you for your courage for coming before the Commission.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — East London — 1997-06-13

CHAIRPERSON: Vuyani Sokupa.  We welcome you.  Please get up to take the oath.

VUYANI SOKUPA: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may sit down.  Ntsiki Sandi will lead you in evidence.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Sokupa, you said that in 1985 you were the organiser of which organisation?

VUYANI SOKUPA: East London Youth Congress.

ADV SANDI: Then you were arrested by the Ciskeian Police and you were beaten up.  Where were you arrested, where did they keep you?

VUYANI SOKUPA: They arrested you, they arrested me from NU12.

ADV SANDI: You were being asked about a policeman that had been killed.

VUYANI SOKUPA: I beg your pardon.

ADV SANDI: What were they asking you?

VUYANI SOKUPA: They were not asking me anything, Boutie just arrested me.  He said that I was holding meetings at my place.  We were in a truck and he said that we were going, he saw me at NU7.  He said that we will meet at NU12.

ADV SANDI: Let us talk about the details of your torture.

VUYANI SOKUPA: They took me from the truck, arrested me.  They took sjamboks and beat me up.

ADV SANDI: Were you injured?

VUYANI SOKUPA: Yes, my left eye does not see properly.  I often have headaches.  I have, I had, I sustained internal injuries.

ADV SANDI: You also have a loss of memory?

VUYANI SOKUPA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: And this was caused by the ill-treatment?

VUYANI SOKUPA: Yes, I was beaten up the most.

ADV SANDI: Did you go to a hospital?

VUYANI SOKUPA: No, I did not.

ADV SANDI: You lost a job after you were beaten up.  Where did you work?  Please come closer to the mike.

VUYANI SOKUPA: Meyer's Meat and Fresh Food.

ADV SANDI: You lost both jobs?

VUYANI SOKUPA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Did they give you reasons for your loss of employment?

VUYANI SOKUPA: No, well I was not satisfied even with the salary that they were giving me.

ADV SANDI: You are not working?

VUYANI SOKUPA: No.

ADV SANDI: Is that all?

VUYANI SOKUPA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Do you have a request?

VUYANI SOKUPA: I have a 14 year old child.  I do not have a job.  If the Commission could help me.

ADV SANDI: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Vuyani for your short evidence that you were beaten up.  They would beat you up.  We are going to investigate as to why Boutie beat you up.  Thank you Vuyani.  We cannot give you answers at the moment.  We are going to report to the President and we will take it from there.  Thank you.  You may step down.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Empangeni — 1996-11-04

WITNESS:   The last one, he is 17 years old.  I think I'm mistaken.  He comes after the one who is 18 years old.  The 17-year old is also doing  standard 6.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Can you give me the name of the school?

WITNESS:   Hlemhlem School.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Okay, thank you.  Just give us a brief picture about what happened.  Before I ask you about that, let me just ask you something about your husband.  Were you involved in politics?

WITNESS:   Yes, we were.  My husband was a member of the ANC.

KHOZA MGOJO:  And yourself?

WITNESS:   At the time I knew nothing about organizations and politics.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Now, as your husband was a staunch member of the ANC - oh, before I go there, were you staying at KwaSokhulu also?

WITNESS:   Yes.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Now, relate to us what happened.

WITNESS:   My husband died on August 14th.  I do not know the time, because on the 13th - that is the night of the 13th there came a certain man from the Msweli family at about 10 o'clock in the evening and he used to come to our place in the evening because my husband was working at that time.

KHOZA MGOJO:  What was this person's name, the one who came on the night of the 13th?

WITNESS:   His name is Simon Msweli.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Thank you.  He came on the night of the 13th.  What happened?

WITNESS:   He knocked at the door.  My husband woke up to see who was there.

KHOZA MGOJO:  How many were there?

WITNESS:   There were two of them, Msweli and another man.

KHOZA MGOJO:  What was the name of the other man?

WITNESS:   It was Vusi Mkhwanyana.

KHOZA MGOJO:  Were they members of a political group?

WITNESS:   Yes, they were members of the ANC.

KHOZA MGOJO:  What happened when they got into your house?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Empangeni — 1996-11-04

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  That was the last witness for today.  We will be resuming again tomorrow morning at 9am sharp.  Please be here at 9am and please encourage your friends, your family, your relatives, to come along and listen to the victims who will be telling their stories tomorrow.   Please make sure that these things are not removed from the hall.  They can't be used outside the hall, so please hand them in at the door.  Thank you very much.
PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO 1996/11/05
/PROCEEDINGS RESUMED
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Empangeni — 1996-11-05

MR LYSTER: That is the last witness for today.  We will be adjourning now and starting again at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.  Please, you are all welcome to come again.  Please tell your friends, members of your family that they are also welcome.  If any of you have any of these instruments, please don't take them out of the hall with you.  They cannot be used outside.  Please also bear in mind that if there's anybody here who wants to make a statement to the Truth Commission, our statement takers will be here tomorrow and you can make a statement to them in the hall next door to this hall.  Thank you very much indeed.
PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO 1996/11/06
/PROCEEDINGS
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Ermelo — 1997-05-22

MR LEWIN: Mr Malinga would you like to put on the earphones please.  Is that comfortable ?  Can you hear the interpreters ?  Okay.  Thanks very much.  Just feel relaxed and before asking Doctor Ally to lead you in evidence this afternoon I'll ask Tom Manthata please to swear you in.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mr Malinga, could you stand up please.  Raise up your right hand please and swear that the evidence I'm going to give is going to be the truth and nothing else but the truth, so help me God.

MR MALINGA: (sworn states)

MR LEWIN: I'll ask Doctor Ally please to lead you in your evidence.   Thank  you.

RUSSELL ALLY: Welcome to you Mr Malinga.  You are also coming to speak about this conflict between people who were seen to be ANC supporters and people who were seen to be IFP supporters and what this conflict meant for you personally and also for members of your family.  I want to ask you now if you would just please take us through these events of 1991 that you described to us in your statement.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — George — 1996-06-19

MARY BURTON: I wanted to just confirm with you this - this happened in Flenter is that right, is Flenter in Knysna?

MS XOKISO: Yes it was there.

MARY BURTON: [indistinct]  live in Knysna?

MS XOKISO: Yes I am still in that house where my son was shot.

MARY BURTON: [indistinct] leave Knysna for a while because of tension between you and people in the community.

MS XOKISO: Yes I had to leave and flee to Plett.

MARY BURTON: [indistinct] made peace with people there - ... end of Tape 1  , side  A  ...

MS XOKISO: [indistinct] who is still telling me some bad things about me selling he body of my child.  That's why my wish if there is  someone with any information about me selling my body's child - could come out and the one who collected the money, they said I've sold the body of my child, would -  can come out if there is any.  Because I don't have the wish of everyone to come and ask me what happened or what did I  say  today.

MARY BURTON: [indistinct] Xokiso we - we hope that your testimony here will help to  set matters between you and others right, so that you can live at peace in your community.  Thank you very much indeed, you may step  down from the platform now.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — George — 1996-06-18

MARY BURTON: It's not really a question Your Grace, I'd just like to thank Ms Botha and Ms Mei for their courage as for Mr Douse to come and tell this very-very tragic story and to assure them that we will do all we can to find out the facts that they are clearly still very uncertain about.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you - ons wou graag net se dat ons aan u - onse simpatie wil vertoon en ons - ons dink dit is vir ons  'n baie groot voorreg om aan u te luister en ons is  baie bly vir  hierdie geleentheid dat u hier - julle storie kan vertel aan onse hele nasie, dat mense moet weet wat het gebeur hierso in hierdie klein dorpies, want stories soos die wat u ons vertel het, het nie altyd in ons nuusblaaie verskyn nie.
 En nou is dit die tyd wanneer die hele nasie kan weet watter smart mense gely het.  En ons hoop tog so baie dat eintlik wat gebeur het sal nie weer gebeur in ons land nie.  Dat ons almal sal vry wees en almal sal gelukkig wees in hierdie land.  Maar baie dankie.

MARY BURTON: Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — George — 1996-06-19

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Would you like to take the oath or make an affirmation?

MS HLAZO: I would like to make an affirmation.
NOTHOBILE HLAZO Duly sworn states

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Mary Burton will facilitate the witness please.

MARY BURTON: Thank you.   Good morning Ms Hlazo, you have come to bring to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, two complaints, the killing of your son Nkosinathi and your own detention for a two month period, is  that correct?

MS HLAZO: Yes that's so.

MARY BURTON: The killing of your son happened in Lawaaikamp, is that right?

MS HLAZO: Yes.

MARY BURTON: [indistinct] Lawaaikamp?

MS HLAZO: No I am not staying in Lawaaikamp I  am staying in Oudtshoorn.

MARY BURTON: [indistinct] remind the members of the public that during February 1986, there was widespread unrest in Lawaaikamp and in the third week of February of 1986 at least three people were killed.  They were Sebenzile Suswana, Meanwell Lakeyi and Mbuyiselo Jona Jack.  And then on the 1st of March there was a funeral service for the three men and during that service an allegation was made that a Mr Madlavu Mathuka was a police informer and the angry mourners at the funeral attacked Mr Mathuka and his wife and children and Dr Allan Boesak, who was going to speak at the funeral, protected them and helped them to  get away.
 Earlier on in that time, a Security Policeman had searched the church premises and afterwards a microphone and battery pack were discovered there.  Later that afternoon the house of Mr Mathuka was burnt down and all of these things were happening in Lawaaikamp  at the time.
 Later also in the following weeks the home of Mr Africa Nqumse was burnt down and he was employed by the Development Board and he himself was necklaced.  
 Now your son, Nkosinathi, it was reported that he was shot while he was evading the police who were wanting to question him in connection with the death of Mr Nqumse.  And we would like you to tell us in your own words, of his death and your  experience at the time.  Please go ahead and tell us your  story.

MS HLAZO: I don't know what happened because I  was not in Lawaaikamp I was in Oudtshoorn.

MARY BURTON: Will you tell us what people told you then about what happened to Nkosinathi.

MS HLAZO: It was this burn down of  a house that I heard about.

MARY BURTON: And then what happened afterwards?

MS HLAZO: I  couldn't get anyone who can clearly inform me and told me who shot my son.  The only thing I wanted to know  who  shot my son and why was he shot and not taken to the prison just like the others, because there were three who were shot, the other two I found them in hospital and I didn't find him in hospital.  They just took him into the van, and killed him.

MARY BURTON: [indistinct] told you that this happened and you went to look for him in the hospital is that right?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — George — 1996-06-19

MARY BURTON: [indistinct] with us today, you and your family have paid a very heavy price, and we - we give you our sympathy, we hope that your prayers will help you to come to terms with what has happened and we will do what we can to see if you and your  family can  be helped in ways to improve your health.  Thank you very much indeed for coming, you can go down now.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — George — 1996-06-18

MARY BURTON: Thank you - he says
Even if a Court of Law understands the misguided frustration of person's in Michael's position, the connection between misguided frustration and extenuation, is to tenuous to constitute extenuation for the purposes of Law.
But you Mr State President, being better informed that the legal profession is, posses a better understanding of how a young man with idealistic religious and political believes such as Michael Lucas can be caught up  in a spiral of violence which eventually leads him in the absence of any genuine political opposition to  charge at political windmills such as bus services with fatal consequences.
I therefore appeal to you  to attempt to appreciate Michael's frustration and on this ground to mitigate his sentence.
I submit further more that there are sound quality reasons not to execute Michael.  Bhongolethu the black township outside Oudtshoorn, is one of the most economically deprived townships in the Western Cape.
Economic depravation is one of the basic reasons why Michael became involved in this so-called freedom struggle which inevitably led to his  downfall.  
The township was caught up in the spiral of violence which designated this  country during 1985.  The bitter deception between the black community and the white, as well as between a large proportion of Bhongolethu's population, and the black persons who allegedly collaborated with the white authorities, grows.
Some  [indistinct] or another Michael's community perceive the resort to violence as a solution to the economic depravation.  Michael himself as the evidence at his trial revealed, was a committed Christian and was well regarded by his community.  As such he is capable of rehabilitation and his community would regard his execution with horror.
I therefore respectfully submit to you Mr State President, that the commuting of his death sentence, as a matter of strategic policy would serve to a swage tensions in the community of Bhongolethu and allow the sentence which he actually receives to serve as a symbol of reconciliation rather than confrontation.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much - mamma - one of the things the Commission has been asked to do is to - is to help reparations to the people to compensate people who have been mishandled to return to them their dignity, the dignity that has been taken away by that treatment like yours telling us that when the police came, in your house you - this particular captain, you was very rude, he just disregarded people as things.
 From our  side we say all that should be something that we resolve not to see again happening to other people, so that you also can be seen as a valuable human being.  You are a human being who was made in the image of God.  You have the humanity  which needs to be respected.
 So we say in those few words, may you get the comfort and have the strength even when you think about this, you control yourself by the knowledge that there are many people who share -  who sympathise with you, you have many  friends.  We thank you very much.

MS LUCAS: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You can go back to your sister.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — George — 1996-06-19

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Would you stand please.
GEOFFREY YALOLO Duly sworn states

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Thank you - Chairperson I have been assigned to facilitate the testimony from Mr Yalolo.
 This case is about the torture of Mr Geoffrey Yalolo by the police.  Mr Yalolo it is very important for us  to  get as much detail  as you  possibly can remember about your torture, the sequence of events - the circumstances and anything that is - or was unusual to  you with respect to this torture.  
 So would you begin - go back as far as you can to give the circumstances for your arrest and your  subsequent torture, thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — George — 1996-06-19

MARY BURTON: Thank you Mr Yalolo we do recognise that it is very hard to be reconciled when people have not showed any repentance for the things that they have done.  And we hope that maybe not quickly because these things don't happen quickly, it will work in people's hearts to come forward and to show signs of remorse and to apologise so that we can move forward and people can be reconciled with one another.
 We are not asking you to hide your pain and your anger, it's good that you are able to show it and to say those things.  And we hope that by coming here this will be one step for you in moving towards a better future.  We need to find a way in which the people can have confidence in the Security Forces and believe that they are there for the protection of everybody.
 So we thank you for what you have to say and we hope that you will improve both in your body and in your mind as the Truth Commission and you yourself move forward to making the future a better place.  Thank you, I think Dr Ally want's to say something as well.

RUSSELL ALLY: This Committee the Human Rights Violations Committee doesn't have any powers to - to prosecute, but what the Committee can do is if people are named as alleged perpetrators that the Committee can actually call them forward and ask them to give an account of -  of their actions or to deny it - do you think that it would help if the people who you mentioned as alleged perpetrators came forward or were asked to come forward and asked to explain and give an account of their deeds and their actions -  would that help you to come to some sort of peace with what is - what has happened to you?

MR YALOLO: I for one, I don't have a problem for them to come forward.  Even if they didn't come the only problem I've got is about my health - I am forced and bound to do something if there is nothing to replace my health or something that can improve my health to be the person I was before I can be very happy.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Mr Yalolo would you please leave the name of your doctor so that we can help follow up on your health - thank you.

MR YALOLO: I don't have a family doctor - I go to each and every doctor, if this one couldn't help me - I go to the other one.  They just couldn't examine me, that's why I don't have a family doctor.  There are no doctors here, the people who are just doing their doctor's work are just ordinary people just like me.

MARY BURTON: Thank you very much Mr Yalolo we won't ask you anymore questions now, thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — George — 1996-08-12

MARY BURTON: Press the button so that you can speak into the microphone.  I see that you have somebody to support you is she a relative or a friend?

MR STUURMAN: A relative.

MARY BURTON: A relative, you very welcome.    You want to use a headset or can you - you are all right.  Mr Stuurman will you  please stand to take the oath.
SIPIWO IVIN STUURMAN Duly sworn states

MARY BURTON: Thank you, Chairperson we have heard this afternoon from Sidney Yabo, from Jan Molowitz and from Thabo Metsing, and we were expecting to hear from the brother in law of Jerry Ndishi.  And we are now going to hear from Sipiwo Stuurman.
 They were all victimised in similar ways, in a similar period and we earlier today thought - in memory of Jerry Ndishi who at the age of  13 was shot dead on the 1st of January 1988.  I am going to ask advocate Potgieter to help Mr Stuurman in telling us his story.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Mary - good afternoon Mr Stuurman.   Are you comfortable?

MR STUURMAN: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: Good, you have waited a while to get your change to give your testimony.  I thank you  for your patience.  As Mary had indicated, yet again your story takes us to that era when the kitskonstabels were operating in the township in Beaufort West .  The incidents had happened as Joyce Seroke has indicated this morning between about May/June of 1987 to about the  beginning of 1988.  And your story again relates to that period and you are also one of those people who  fell victim in that - in that era.
 But before we get to the shooting incident, involving the kitskonstabels, your story starts a bit earlier than that, it starts at the time when you were still schooling in 1985.  So can I ask you to start at that stage when you were still at school in 1985 and then take us through to the actual shooting incident where you  were injured.
 So would you start by - by telling us about the situation when you were still at school.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — George — 1996-06-11

ADV POTGIETER: Is there anything else that you feel that the Commission could do for you apart from Terra?

MS MABILO: I request that - I am a poor woman and I struggled a lot.  I cannot work for myself as you see me and this is because of Terra.  Now this - these hands are not functioning any more, I cannot work for myself.  And the comrades are taking me to doctors.  As you see me I am under treatment, I - I hoped that while he was doing such things he would - he would be looking at me.  But that wasn't the case, I thought he would have a feeling for me.
 I cannot even hear thoroughly, I am nothing.  I don't have any child to look up to - a child who would work for me.  Nobody is employed at home - all of us are at home.  My family is a disgrace.  I hope I've just said everything and I thank you, I thank the Commission because we never thought that we would come here.  And nobody knew that we would be sitting as we are seated now.  Nobody knew that today would we hacked as we are held now.  I want him to feel the pain that I felt, I don't have a husband who can work for me, I thank you.

ADV POTGIETER: I thank you - I thank you too for your evidence and for sharing that with us.  You've referred to Terra now, we - we need some more information to be able to - to try and comply with your request.  Has he got a surname, Terra?

MS MABILO: I'm not sure, I think his surname is Cacampa.  I'm not sure whether call him Cacampa.

ADV POTGIETER: And assume that it is a policeman?

MS MABILO: That's truth, his a policeman.

ADV POTGIETER: Here in Kimberley?

MS MABILO: Yes, he's in Kimberley.

ADV POTGIETER: Ms Mabilo thank you.

YASMINE SOOKA: Ms Mabilo, Florence, Ms Mabozo we grieve with you because we know that you have suffered.  The loss of a son is a very sad thing and today we have heard plenty of stories of mothers who don't know where their sons have gone, who don't know how their sons have died and who's sons have actually - who's lives have actually been wasted. 
We will do as you say, you've asked  us to find out why Terra did this to your son.  We need to go and find evidence to prove that he actually assist in the killing of your son.  But the Commission will try to do what it can to find out what the circumstances were when your son died.  Thank you for coming all of you to share your story with us, thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — George — 1996-06-18

MARY BURTON: Good morning Mr Kroma.

MR KROMA: Good morning ma'am.

MARY BURTON: Are you willing to swear the oath - thank you.
SIPHO KROMA Duly sworn states

MARY BURTON: Thank you very much, Dr Ramashala will be facilitating your testimony.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Good morning Mr Kroma.

MR KROMA: Good morning ma'am.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Chairperson I  would like to just observe that Mr Kroma is currently the Mayor in Oudtshoorn.  
 There - this case is really about a torture that occurred in Uitenhage in the Eastern Cape, but it has been established that the perpetrators that are named were actually based in Oudtshoorn.  I will ask Mr Kroma to relate his story in his own words in as detailed a way as possible, starting from the beginning.  Not only talking about the torture itself, but also giving contacts with respects to your political organisations your activities, and whatever else was happening in the community, thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — George — 1996-06-19

MR MTHAMZELI: I was in police station - police station cells, after they have assaulted me and tortured me they didn't put me in prison cells, I was eating half a slice of bread or a quarter with a mug - a big mug - half of it had  [indistinct] half of it had coffee.  And it was tasteless, you couldn't even know which kind of coffee is it, even the sugar was not enough.
 My parents couldn't afford to buy me food and brought me something to eat, my friends also didn't have financial means to help me with food, because they - I was not allowed to get some food where I was.

MARY BURTON: [indistinct] was in the police station, police cells?

MR MTHAMZELI: During the six months detention I was in the George Prison where I was with the other prisoners who were sentenced already.  Although it was not a nice meal to had for a day, although I  had something for my stomach, unlike the one I had in the past.

MARY BURTON: We have tried to find some of the records from the police stations from that time, but they are not available, so we would be glad if you could give us the names of people for instance who were in prison with you at the same time, so that we can follow up witnesses statements.

MR MTHAMZELI: I can give you the names.

MARY BURTON: And then there is another question that I would like to ask, you referred to Mr Michael James, where is he now and what is he doing now?

MR MTHAMZELI: He is still working in the municipality offices, because he resigned from the - as a kitskonstabel after he finished shooting children, they youth - in 1986.  86/87 he was still a kitskonstabel and then in 1989 he went back to the municipal offices, where he is - he working - he is still there, he is in the location of Nonqaba in Mossel Bay.
 I did reconcile with him and he also greets, I don't have any grudge against him, I  am trying to show him that I am in reconciliation with him, the way he was, it was during the apartheid era.  I was trying to show the let's forget about the past - I am not a revengeful person, because I was born with people who had peace.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Chairperson I want to observe the tragedy in South Africa where some of the doctors - the role they played during the oppression years.  Doctors take their Hippocratic oath to save lives, the role they played during the oppressive years, actually certifying people to ensure that they can withstand torture - this is very unfortunate.
Mr Mthamzeli, we would like you to see a doctor, to confirm that your genital torture has actually caused infertility.  We thank you for being here, and commend your bravery in describing what's happened to you.  Thank you very much.

MARY BURTON: Thank you very much.

MR MTHAMZELI: I also thank you a lot.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — George — 1996-06-18

MARY BURTON: Hello Mr Vena are you  willing to take the oath?

MR VENA: Yes.
PATRICK VENA Duly  sworn states

MARY BURTON: Thank you very much, please be seated - Dr Russell Ally is going to facilitate your testimony, thank you.

RUSSELL ALLY: Mnr Vena gaan jy in Afrikaans praat of - in which language will you testify?

MR VENA: In Xhosa.

RUSSELL ALLY: Mr Vena your case is one of -  of severe ill treatment and torture.   So if you could just tell us in - about what happened to you.

MR VENA: Can I - can I go on.

RUSSELL ALLY: Yes please.

MR VENA: Can I go on - are you waiting for me now.

RUSSELL ALLY: Yes we are waiting for you now.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — George — 1996-06-19

MAPULE RAMASHALA: [indistinct] let's suppose that these perpetrators might see this program on television, what would you like to tell them?

MR MZATHI: What I can tell them is this, I would like them to tell to the people out of the torture what was the reason for them to torture me like this.  To beat me up like this, to insert my testicles into the drawer and tell the people so that the people can know if  they are here of if they are available.

MARY BURTON: Thank you Mr Mzathi for coming to tell us about what happened to you, we too hope that the people who did these things, will come forward and explain what they did and why they did it, and if they  are sorry that they should say so, so that you will be satisfied in that way that we can begin to forgive one another for the things that have happened.
 And we are really grateful to you for coming to tell us your story today, thank you very much.

MR MZATHI: Okay.

MARY BURTON: You can come down now, thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — George — 1996-06-18

MARY BURTON: Thank you Chairperson - there some announcements that we make just before we begin, many of you  will have in your seats the -  the headphone system, we don't have quite enough for every chair in the hall, so if you sitting where there isn't one, there are plenty more here at the front.  The headphones are for the translation service that we provide.  You - you operate them with this  part of it and on Channel 1 you will get Afrikaans, on Channel 2, English and on Channel 3, Xhosa.
 When you leave the room at tea time or at lunch breaks and so on, please leave the headphones and the gadgets that go with them on your seats.  They need to be recharged, so please leave them on the chairs when you move about.  Those of you who have cell phones, please make sure that they are switched off during the proceedings so  that we have no interruptions  and also we would ask you  while witnesses are testifying please not to move around in the hall and distracts them.
 I know that some of you are possible bothered a bit by these very bright lights, if you want now to move to  a seat that you might not find it so troublesome, please do, there is space at the front.  
We would like very much to  welcome friends and supporters and members of the public who have come to attend this  hearing.  I can  see that we have Bishop Adams from Oudtshoorn and Father Luyt here, there may be other people who  require a special welcome, but we are very-very glad to have all of you here and we feel  certain that as the witnesses tell their  story, they will feel supported by the interest and concern of members of  the public.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — George — 1996-06-18

MARY BURTON: Our first witness is Kobus Pienaar who is an attorney who worked in this area, he works in Cape Town now, but he worked in this area during the 1980's and Dr Ramashala will facilitate his evidence - Mr Pienaar please come and take your place.
 Before you begin, may we ask you to take the oath and for you to stand please.
KOBUS PIENAAR Duly sworn states

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Thank you Mr Chairperson - good morning Mr Pienaar.  Before you begin, I'd like to just make a few statements, Oudtshoorn experienced a traumatic political upheaval during 1985 that continued into 1986.  Resistance became even more resolved by newly emerged organisations such as the Bhongolethu Young Organisation and the Bhongolethu Civic Association.  In particular resistance was sparked off by Security Forces -  Security Force actions taken against residents who participated in commemoration service on June 16th 1985 after which three children were killed.  
 During 1987 sixteen kitskonstabels were sent to Bhongolethu to police the area after their six weeks of training.  The kitskonstabels proved to be a law unto themselves - between September 1987 and January 1988 less than six months, at least six activist were injured by kitskonstabels a  remarkable series of incidents, involving the kitskonstabels was recorded by the police themselves in the Bhongolethu police station incident book.
 Mr Chairperson Mr Pienaar will give us a context - that will give us a  good appreciation of the subsequent  cases we will hear this morning.  And to that I  welcome Mr Pienaar and ask that he describe for us not only the establishment, the history and the activities of the kitskonstabels but  to give us a context against - which in a bad round against, which we will get a good understanding of the cases that come in before us, thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-07

ZIMASILE JOSEPH BOTA: Mr Chairperson, if the enemy is forgiven you must know that you are forgiving an enemy.  You do not know whether the enemy has forgiven you.  When we were burying Mr May, the police gave us an order that there must be 200 people attending the funeral, but there were more than 1000 who attended the funeral.  Those regulations were laid by the police.  After ten years, after we have forgiven these people they will use other people to kill us, they will not come by themselves.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Zimasile.  You mentioned that the black police took part in killing people.  What do you think the reason was that black people were killing more than white policemen?

ZIMASILE JOSEPH BOTA: Mr Chairperson, the reason that we were killed by the police, black policemen is that they joined the police force because they were against certain members of the community.  When they became police they would come and they would come with their uniform to the township.  As I am a member of Adelaide Youth Congress I know that that is an enemy.  A person who is not aware of this, for example, the killing of Andile Kiva, Andile Ndyebi and other people who were assaulted, we did not expect this to happen, because the police came with their uniforms.  I left home on that Saturday, because I was aware that when the police came in their uniforms they were going to do such incidents.  Many people were killed because they were not aware.  That is why I am saying that the black policemen are the ones who killed us, because they joined the police force due to a grudge they have against the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Zimasile.  What you said here today makes us think although I am not saying I agree with all that you have said, but we are going to think deeply about what you have said as we are trying to reconcile this country.  We have to keep peace in this country.  After ten years we want to see results.  We do not want to see that we have wasted our time.  We will think deeply about the important things that we are doing in our job.  We thank you.  We also noted the requests you mentioned.  Some of them are very difficult, because we are trying to reconcile and to forgive each other in this country.  We thank you for speaking out as you did.  You may sit down.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-08

CHAIRPERSON: We would like to call Ntsikelelo Botha.  I would like us to please show mutual consideration.  We have reached a point where certainly people are a bit confused as to what it is we are doing.  The Law which governs us requires that when anyone's name is mentioned in a statement, that person be granted an opportunity by way of being informed and, should the person so wish, come forward and place his version or her version of events with regard to the incident in which the person is being implicated.  Hence, Ntsikelelo Botha together with his attorney have come here to do just that.  This would be the time where we would ask everyone to be extremely disciplined, because we would like to conduct these proceedings with as much order and dignity possible befitting this kind of occasion.  We would like to ask people to contain themselves in spite of hearing things which they may not necessarily approve of, that they exercise the discipline that we know the people of Grahamstown to have so that we can give Ntsikelelo Botha the opportunity to relate his version of events and if there is anyone with an opinion which differs from the one which  Ntsikelelo Botha will relate to us, we ask them to meet with our statement takers and hand in a statement, but for now we ask that we give Ntsikelelo Botha the opportunity to testify.  Is it Mr Vermaak?  We were given the name of Mr Vermaak.  Are you in the same partnership.

ADV DE LA HOOP: He is my Clerk.

CHAIRPERSON: You are, you have requested to read your statement into the record.  You will, of course, permit us to allow for the panellists to raise some questions should they have some questions to direct to your client.

ADV DE LA HOOP: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to lead your client or is he going to just read the statement?

ADV DE LA HOOP: My proposal would be to my client that he read his statement, but having translated it into Xhosa so that the general public would hear and that would save the necessity of interpreting that and then you may ask such questions as you might care.  I have no intention of leading, I think the statement itself is sufficiently full of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We will follow that procedure.  We would like to welcome you Ntsikelelo Botha.  We are going to ask you to take the prescribed oath.  Reverend Xundu is going to assist you in taking the prescribed oath.

NTSIKELELO BOTHA: (Duly sworn in, states).

REV XUNDU: Thank you very much.  He has been duly sworn in, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Botha, we are not going to lead you as your legal representative has indicated.  We are now going to give you an opportunity to read the Xhosa, relate your version or your affidavit to us in Xhosa.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-09

CHAIRPERSON: And were Qina and Williams some of the people that were also arrested?  Were the other people that were arrested with you, also tortured that badly?

BUYISWA MARGARET CEKISANI: There was just one other girl that was severely tortured.  She was also in the car in which I was.  Three of them had worked at a bakery.

CHAIRPERSON: This boy.

BUYISWA MARGARET CEKISANI: Sorry, it is not a girl, it is a boy.

CHAIRPERSON: He is still in Fort Beaufort?

BUYISWA MARGARET CEKISANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you Mrs Cekisani for coming to tell your story.  As I have said  it sketches the picture of torture which I do not think we have seen much about recently in this hearing, torture on a female person with the jumper leads of a car attached to the batteries of a motor vehicle and to the ears of a person.
 We have never come across that form of torture.  We would be very interested in discovering these means of torture so that our report to the State President can be as comprehensive and complete as possible.
 But this type of torture we find rather surprising, especially being administered to a female person.  As we have said we will follow up on what you have said here today.
 We will go to (indistinct) and Sqila and see which
other information we can obtain.  Also from Dr Botha and Dr Claasen and see which report we could obtain from them.  We thank you very much for having come.