Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

DR KNOBEL: No, no, no it's not right Ms Sooka.  If you take paragraph 3, let's read the whole paragraph.  Do you understand Afrikaans?

YASMINE SOOKA: Yes I do.

DR KNOBEL: Okay.
"The content of the load was supplied on the 30th of March 1993 by Brig Basson".
That means all the big drums are available ...(intervention)

YASMINE SOOKA: Sorry General I've read all that part.  Just explain to me what those "opmerkings" actually mean please.

DR KNOBEL: It means that three further samples were taken, over and above the ones that had already been taken by Commandant de Bruin.  You remember it says there de Bruin had the samples that he had taken in his possession.  They never left his possession.

YASMINE SOOKA: Yes, but it then goes on to say ...(intervention)

DR KNOBEL: Three further samples.

YASMINE SOOKA: ...(indistinct)

MR VALLY: I am sorry if I could just, on this very issue, I am sorry Ms Sooka, we are trying to determine what was in fact thrown out of the plane into the sea.  To follow up what Ms Sooka is saying, at the bottom of the page, page E3
"The samples were taken out of three of these blue plastic drums and are currently in my possession".
Samples were taken and is in my possession.

DR KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Not "ek het die monsters geneem".  That's the first question.
 The second question the following sentence -
"On the 30th of March Brig Basson handed over three further samples (one each of products BC and BX) and handed over to me".

DR KNOBEL: That's correct.

MR VALLY: Where he got it from, when he took it is not clear.  So we've got three samples which he has in his possession which were taken, but he doesn't say, "I took them", this is now Commandant de Bruin.

DR KNOBEL: No, but in the minutes of the Coordinating Management Committee meeting Brig Basson reports that Commandant de Bruin took ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: That's the point.  That's Brig Basson's version.  I am saying this is the actual version signed by de Bruin.

DR KNOBEL: That's correct.

MR VALLY: He says three samples were taken and are in my possession.  Not "I took them", that's the first question.
 The second question, he says on 30th March Brig Basson gave me three further samples.

DR KNOBEL: That's correct.

MR VALLY: Now when he took it, where he took it from, that's not clear.

DR KNOBEL: Well he says there that it was taken on the day of the destruction.

MR VALLY: Right.  But he gave it to Commandant de Bruin.

DR KNOBEL: That's correct.

MR VALLY: So what was in the drums is the same thing as he gave Commandant de Bruin, those three samples, that's not clear.

DR KNOBEL: Mr Vally but surely if we call upon Commandant de Bruin to give us the information we could clarify that quickly ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Possibly, but I am posing to you at this point that we don't have unambiguous evidence that the drums that were dropped into the sea contained the substances they were supposed to have contained.
 Let's go into the "opmerkings" that Ms Sooka was asking you about.
"The three samples were later handed to Commandant de Bruin after they were deactivated.  The samples were taken on the day of the destruction".
and that's got Brig Basson's signature there.

DR KNOBEL: That's correct.

MR VALLY: The implication again is that whatever Commandant de Bruin was looking at was supplied to him by Brig Basson.

DR KNOBEL: No, I don't agree with that Mr Vally.  We have two sets of samples here.  We have samples that were in the possession of Commandant de Bruin and that he kept in his possession and that the Chief of the National Defence Force said should be kept by him at the Chief of Counter Intelligence's office, in addition to the three that he was given by Basson.  That's what we have here.

MR VALLY: Well we are not going to get much further on this issue.  You know for me there's two dates, the first date is the 27th of January 1993 and I will read that to you.
"Brig Basson upon arrival at 28 Squadron..."

DR KNOBEL: Which document are you referring to now?

MR VALLY: ....document.

DR KNOBEL: Oh yes I am sorry, yes.

MR VALLY: Sorry, let's start again.

DR KNOBEL: Paragraph 3, yes, okay.

MR VALLY: E3, the second last sentence.
"Brig Basson arrived there on the 27th of January 1993 and insisted...."
he says that they must take out samples from the blue plastic holders.  This is now Brig Basson on the 27th of January.

DR KNOBEL: That's correct.

MR VALLY: That's the date.  Then it says the sample is taken out of four of the plastic drums.

DR KNOBEL: "And is in my possession".

MR VALLY: "And is presently in my possession".

DR KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Letter dated 30th of March.  Then it goes on to say, on the 30th of March Brig Basson gave me three further samples, one each of products BC and BX.

DR KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: "Gave it to me and those are presently in my possession".  So we have samples ...(intervention)

DR KNOBEL: He has now got seven samples if I read this correctly.

MR VALLY: Well - yes that's right.  We've got samples taken on the 27th of January and we've got samples given to him ...(intervention)

DR KNOBEL: On the 30th of ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: On the day of destruction.

DR KNOBEL: That's correct.

MR VALLY: By Brig Basson.

DR KNOBEL: That's correct.  No Mr Vally you are not right.  Given on the 30th, taken on the 27th, according to what Brig Basson says here.

MR VALLY: Well maybe we need to get clarity on that, because it says in Commandant de Bruin's statement, and I am talking about the first sentence on page 2
"On the 30th of March 1993 Brig Basson, three further samples..."

DR KNOBEL: That's exactly what I said Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Fine.  One each of those products.

DR KNOBEL: "Which is also now in my possession..." and the letter is dated the 30th of March.

MR VALLY: Right.  So for all we know Brig Basson may have got it from somewhere else.

DR KNOBEL: That's a possibility, yes.

MR VALLY: Yes.  And therefore on the day the drums were dropped into the sea, which is the 30th of March ...(intervention)

DR KNOBEL: No, which was the 27th of March.

MR VALLY: I beg your pardon, I beg your pardon.

DR KNOBEL: If you look at the first paragraph of that letter.

MR VALLY: Yes.

DR KNOBEL: "On the 27th....", I beg your pardon, "On the 27th of January..." ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Right.

DR KNOBEL: "...destroyed in my presence".

MR VALLY: Okay sorry, I beg your pardon.  You are right.

DR KNOBEL: You see what I mean now.

MR VALLY: Yes, yes.

DR KNOBEL: But the letter, the certificate that we have here was signed on the 30th of March.

MR VALLY: Yes.  But why did Brig Basson give the further three samples on the 30th of March to Commandant de Bruin?

DR KNOBEL: I have no idea, I think we should clarify that ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: If the items were allegedly destroyed already.

DR KNOBEL: I beg your pardon Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: If the drums were allegedly already in the sea.

DR KNOBEL: Yes but he says that he also took those samples on the 27th of January, at the day of the destruction.  He says so.

MR VALLY: He says he had it in his possession.  He didn't say he took it.  Alright.

DR KNOBEL: Mr Vally please ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Sure.

DR KNOBEL: Brigadier Basson says
"The samples were taken on the day of the destruction".
that was the 27th of January.

MR VALLY: Brig Basson says that.

DR KNOBEL: He says that.

MR VALLY: Right.

DR KNOBEL: This is what ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Well that's the whole point.  The question we are asking is, can we trust Brig Basson?

DR KNOBEL: At the time I didn't have, and certainly the Chief of the Defence Force, and certainly the entire Coordinating Management Committee did not think that there was any reason to doubt his word.

MR VALLY: We are talking 30th March 1993 now.

DR KNOBEL: That's correct.