Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

MR FOURIE: Thank you and I must commend you on your - on restraining your apparent agitation this time but previously I noticed that you were very, very, distressed.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FOURIE

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other persons wishing to put questions - implicated persons or victims?  Will you place your full name on the record please?

BENJAMIN BRODE: My name is Benjamin Brodie, I would like to put a question to Mr Mabala.
	Mr Mabala, you said that you did not see Mr Cerqueira when he 
was shot at, is that true?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Sir, I said I heard a noise, when I heard a noise I didn't know where the noise was coming from.  Comrade ...[indistinct] was shooting but I couldn't see where he was actually shooting but what I know he was actually shooting at a person but I didn't see that person.

BENJAMIN BRODE: Okay, you said that you didn't see that person, then did you see any other persons when shots were fired at Mr Cerqueira?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I didn't see anybody, it was dark - you must remember that it was very dark, it was in the evening, you can't see everything that's happening during the night.

BENJAMIN BRODE: When you heard a shot, what did you do?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: What sound are you talking about, what noise?  What sound are you talking about Sir?

BENJAMIN BRODE: The sound that came before Mr - what's the other gentleman's name, before Mr Gqomfa fired?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: You mean - I was in the car, there was nothing I could do, I was in the car.  I would be also shot but there was nothing I could do, I was in the car when I heard the noise.

BENJAMIN BRODE: Mr Mabala, you are saying that - I'm asking if it was just Mr Gqomfa that shot when you heard the noise?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I heard a loud noise Sir - just hear me out - I heard a noise, it was a gunshot.   Just before Mr Gqomfa could shoot there was another shot, when I heard that shot comrade Luyanda started to shoot - began to shoot but I don't even know where this noise or this gunshot was coming from - maybe he knows, I don't know.

BENJAMIN BRODE: So, from what I'm hearing that you're saying there was a noise and then there was another noise?  So that second noise could have come from one of your comrades shooting from inside the car?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] is that he heard a sound which sounded like gunshot, Mr Gqomfa his companion - he then heard Mr Gqomfa firing in the direction from which that sound came.

JUDGE WILSON: No, he said he heard a second shot before Gqomfa fired.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear that.
	Let's just clear that up - I'm sorry, I don't want to be unfair to the witness.

MR FOURIE: Could I repeat that or ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Just let's clear it up.

BENJAMIN BRODE: Or re-repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
	Just listen to me, when you were in the car and you were moving away - before you saw your colleague Mr Gqomfa fire, how many shots did you hear?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I heard a gunshot, it's only one that I heard.

CHAIRPERSON: That's right.  Yes, next question?

BENJAMIN BRODE: Were the windows of the car rolled down or rolled up?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I can't remember Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

BENJAMIN BRODE: Okay, I've got no further questions to Mr Mabala, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRODE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

<UNKNOWN>: The next witness who wants to put a question to the applicant is Roland Palm.

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: Mr Chairman, for the record I'm Roland Palm, I became a victim because my daughter was brutally murdered in my presence in the Heidelberg but before I put a few questions to the accused, I would just like to put this on record -  my statement to the TRC is accurate as of the fatal night of the 30/12/93.  The statement is in Mr Prior's possession which has not been read out as yet, it does highlight my doubt about APLA's alleged involvement at the time, it also highlights my suspicions then and now.

CHAIRPERSON: I'd rather you deal with that at some other stage but just now I'd like to get done with this witness, please put your questions to him.

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: Okay, first I'd like to state that by attending this hearing in this week, it has become apparent that the accused are the people
who have committed this horrific crime.  Now the questions I'd like to put to the applicants - I'm not going to dwell on - around the case, I just would like to know from them what is APLA's objectives today?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Sir, at the time when we were fighting but now we are the same Government - we are in the same Government with the old regime, we should unite now.  We don't talk about the past now, we are talking about democracy.

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: I think the question was: "What is their attitude today"?  I'm not talking about the past, I'm not talking ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He says: "Now we're in a democratic Government" - that is what he's trying to say.

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: Okay, it's been expressed here they show openly their hatred towards the White race, is this still the case?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: It's not like that anymore Sir, at least we can unite.   I can be your visitor, we can chat like one person, we can chat like brothers - it's not like before.  I can pay you a visit and please don't think about those things that this is an APLA member, he's going to kill me - I'm a person, I'm like the other human beings.  I don't have all those ideas like I had before.

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: So in other words, you are satisfied with the Government of today?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes Sir, I'm satisfied with the Government of today Sir because it is the one who - I'm satisfied, there's nothing else that I can do.  I'm going to obey instructions and orders from the Government.

ROLAND LEWIS PALM: Thank you Mr Chair, that's all for now.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PALM

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anybody else who wishes to put questions?

MR FOURIE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  When Mr Brode was speaking my memory was jogged a little and I just have one question for Mr Mabala.
	Did you refer to "Ikiwa" when a question was put to you about Mr Cerqueira, the person who was shot and killed outside the tavern?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No English translation.

MR FOURIE: Did you use the word "Ikiwa" or "Amakiwa"?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No Sir, no.

MR FOURIE: You didn't use the word?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No.

MR FOURIE: The only reason why I asked is because I do believe it has rather derogatory implications or rather meanings and I just wanted to clarify if I heard it or if I heard incorrectly but if you didn't hear it, I'm very glad you didn't use it.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR JANUARY: Mr Chairman, Michael January again
...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] we can't go on and on, do you understand?  When you've got a chance to put questions, please put all your questions once and get done with it.

MR JANUARY: Thank you Sir.  My question is really related to the situation regarding Mr Mabala's knowledge of Mr Xuma and I'm still not satisfied that we've heard the end of that but I thought maybe again if I could just give the applicant space to answer that question.

CHAIRPERSON: The question has already been asked, I don't know whether there's any purpose served.

MR JANUARY: I do have a specific questions to ask him Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mabala, you indicated that you did not know the name Bulelani Xuma yet you recognised the face when Mr Xuma came forward.  Did you know him by any other name?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: That's correct, Sir.

MR JANUARY: Do I understand that to mean that you do know him by another name?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes, Sir.

MR JANUARY: What other name do you know Mr Xuma by?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: It's Billy.

MR JANUARY: Thank you Mr Mabala.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I trust that there's nobody else who wishes to put questions?  Have you any questions in re-examination?