Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — 1997-12-04

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: Like all Commissioners of Police, Johan van der Merwe was a member of CIC and I saw him there, he was a member of the Meetings.  During that time he was Commissioner of  Police .

MR MCADAM: Did you have any liaison with William Schoon who.was the Commanding Officer of the Police Counter Insurgency Unit?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: I had no contact with this specific individual he was not a member of CIC.  CIC was a body established in Simon's Town and I see in your documents that it is alleged CIC was established after a meeting held in Simon's Town in March 1980 to determine the areas of responsiblities in the Intelligence community.   During that occasion the roles of NI, Department of Military Intelligence in the Defence Force, Security Branch of the police and Foreign Affairs were established.  CIC was established I was the chairman of the bases of NI and the Head of the security branch of the police, the Head of the military Intelligence and the chief directorate of foreign affairs.  Middle level officers of police and Foreign Affairs did not attend CIC meetings.

MR MCADAM: You can perhaps help us by giving comment on amnesty applications by Brigadier Schooon where they are asking amnesty for an attack in Lesotho where innocent people were killed and where they alleged that the authorisation for that operation came from CIC.

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: Mr Chairman my hearing was scheduled for October and it was postponed to December.  You are asking me questions now regarding amnesty applications I have not received and I think it's unreasonable to ask or accept that I should react.  I  think that the rule is that no documents should be used here where people are required to give a perspective that they should have insight into that beforehand, I don't know which documents you are referring to.
 I wish to assist you, however, and I want to tell you that CIC at no stage at all,  I, being the chairman for 12years and CIC have a complete set of minutes, if you look at the minutes of CIC, I've asked for those but they were not made available.  Can you just wait till I've completed my answer.  If you look at the minutes of CIC you will see at no stage any decisions were made regarding cross- border operations.  CIC was involved in the Intelligence gathering regarding these matters.  At CIC the Defence Force and the police would have said that the operations could be planned against neighbouring States.  Should you receive information regarding a terrorist basis I would be glad if you could provide it to the executive authorities.  CIC did not authorise these activities.   It gathered Intelligence.

MR MCADAM: Did CIC receive any instructions from the Defence Force or the police for assistance regarding information of people belonging to illegal organisations?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: I've already said that we did assist the Defence Force and the police.  The CIC was a body who co-ordinated the Intelligence structure and to manage scarce manpower and  resources.  We  each had our own line responsibility and we reacted on aproaches by the South African Defence Force and police, and apart from what we were doing we tried to present them with this Intelligence but at no stage information was required from us on the presumption that this information would be use for illegal operations.

MR MCADAM: Is it correct to say that Trevits was a sub committee of CIC?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: That is a matter to which I've already referred, I've already referred to the sub committees.  You did not provide me with the documents.  I'm careful to say that  it was a sub committee of CIC.  I would rather try and explain to you how it operated.  I want to refer back to my statement.  You did not give me an opportunity to refresh my memory regarding CIC documents.  But this morning while reading my statement, and I want to refer back to that and I refer to that on page 23 paragraph 117, and  I said the activities of CIC was supported by a system of sub committees who did all the preparatory work. The sub committees among others covert information or Intelligence gathering.  And I would say that Trevits was part of this covert information gathering.  I think that could possibly be the case.

MR MCADAM: I think there was mistake on the side of the people who had to provide the documents that they did not provide you with these amnesty applications. I'm asking you to forgive us.  We could provide you with that and you could peruse it and we could come back to that.  I just want to establish whether you have accepted or received rather the amnesty application of van der Westerhuizen?

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: : Yes, I did.  If you want me to throw light on any matters required by the Truth Commission I would like to do that in written form I can't do it now.  I have received Mr van der Westhuizen's statement, yes.

MR MCADAM: Once again a senior member of military Intelligence is Mr van der Westhuizen.  He also refers to a mechanism according to which targets were identified for elimination.
 He alleges in his application that at a certain stage there was friction between the police and the Defence Force regarding an attack in Swaziland and they were reacting on information obtained from NI and therefore Trevits was established to avoid this type of problems.  This you will see on page 13 the rest of that specific statement.

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: I have it Mr Chairman.  What is your question?

MR MC ADAM: I just want to determine whether that statement according to you is wrong or correct.

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: I can't assist you in this matter.   I can think that the establishment of Trevits could have been the consequence of differences and a lack of co-ordination of Intelligence as subjective allegation in an amnesty application that was said because there were differences between the Defence Force and the police and that the Intelligence was provided by NI.  I can't comment on that.  It could have been that NI presented the Intelligence but whether that led to the establishment of Trevits I can't say.  The provision of Intelligence was important for us and therefore Trevits could have been established.  The coordination of that Intelligence was not with the purpose of eliminating people, definitely not to eliminate people that was for countering the revolutionary onslaught.

MR MCADAM: Perhaps you can assist us and tell us how a person like Mr van der Westhuizen who had a senior position in the Defence Force, he has long been involved in the Defence Force could make such a wrong conclusion regarding the purpose of Trevits.

MR TREURNICHT: : I'm sorry Mr Chairman I just need to interrupt you.  In this amnesty application nothing is mentioned, nothing is mentioned that Trevits co-ordinated these attacks.  If you read this properly it says there was a body which co-ordinated information or intelligence namely Trevits and certain projects were developed by this person who applies for amnesty and he kept a target dossiers but no mention is made that Trevits formulated the planning of an attack. I don't think you can ask a question in such a way.

MR LYSTER: Is that the case, I haven't read the amnesty application myself.  But to what extent ....(intervention)
(The speaker's microphone is not on) ....