Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-10

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct, he assaulted me.

MR DU PLESSIS: What did he do to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He applied electric shocks on me and he covered my face with a tube and he administered some things on my fingers, I don't know what they are.

MR DU PLESSIS: If you say he administered electric shocks on you, can you just give us an explanation how did he do this?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying he put some wires on my fingers and I cannot explain how it worked, but it used to affect me.

MR DU PLESSIS: Were you blindfolded when this incident occurred?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, because the tube had covered my eyes as well as my nose.

MR DU PLESSIS: How do you know that he administered wires on your fingers?  Did you see the wires?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I saw these wires before he actually covered my face.

MR DU PLESSIS: And when were you released after this incident?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot remember, but yes, I was released ultimately, but I cannot recall when.

MR DU PLESSIS: Was it on the same day of your arrest, two days later, a month?  Can you give us any idea?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I am saying I cannot recall because I was taken to the Police station where I was locked in.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember whether you were released on the same day or the following day, can you remember that as well?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think I spent a week if not two, I am not quite sure.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did you ever appear in a court of law during that two weeks?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I cannot recall.  No, I did not appear before the Court.  They just assaulted me and kept me for two weeks at Vanderbijlpark.

MR DU PLESSIS: And where were you released?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: In Vanderbijlpark.

MR DU PLESSIS: At the Police station?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: Before the meeting two weeks before the Boipatong massacre, did you see Mr Peens again?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I saw Peens on the 17th and during the week, the two weeks prior to the attack, meeting.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Nosenga, I have asked you before the meeting that took place two weeks before the Boipatong massacre, did you see Mr Peens again?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I saw him on the 17th, during the day, he was actually giving Gatiza some money and I also saw him at Boipatong in the evening.

MR DU PLESSIS: So after the first arrest and the meeting, you never saw him again?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Would you please repeat the question?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Nosenga, after your first arrest by Mr Peens, and before the meeting that took place two weeks before the Boipatong massacre, you never saw Mr Peens again, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: At this meeting, two weeks before Boipatong, are you sure that Mr Peens was present at this meeting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I am sure.  I am certain I saw him at that meeting two weeks prior to the attack, that is the meeting of the 14th.

MR DU PLESSIS: How do you know this, that it was Mr Peens?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did say that I was not seeing him for the first time, you will remember you asked me when I met him for the first time, I told you how he arrested me.  I was not seeing him for the first time at the hostel.  It was the same Peens who was working for the Murder and Robbery Unit, he is the one who attended the meeting two weeks prior to the attack in the company of Themba Khosa.

MR DU PLESSIS: Why do you say the person who arrested you was the same person who was at the meeting two weeks before Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I know Peens, it was Peens, he is the one who arrested me.  He was also present at the hostel two weeks prior to the attack.  He attended that meeting, so I knew him.

MR DU PLESSIS: At this meeting, did Mr Peens at any stage address the people present at the meeting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall sir.  I cannot recall whether he addressed the crowd.

MR DU PLESSIS: Can you remember what he did at the meeting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot remember him doing anything in particular, except that he was standing there with Themba Khosa.

MR DU PLESSIS: Do you know the purpose why Mr Peens would allegedly be at this meeting if he said nothing and he did nothing at the meeting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR DU PLESSIS: Can you remember who Chaired this meeting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did say that it was Gatchene as well as other induna's.

MR DU PLESSIS: In your statement, Mr Chairman, Exhibit R on page 19, paragraph 5, the second sentence starting with "Themba Khosa", and I will read it out to you
"... Themba Khosa and Mr Peens, a member of the Murder and Robbery Squad in Flora Gardens, Chaired the meeting."

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know anything about that, I only said that Themba Khosa as well as Peens were present at the meeting.

MR DU PLESSIS: So this is not correct, Mr Peens did not, and Mr Khosa did not ...

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is not correct.  I am simply saying they were present at the meeting, but the person who spoke was Gatchene.

MR DU PLESSIS: Do you remember if a person by the name of Danie was present?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't remember Danie, I only remember Peens.  I only saw Danie for the first time during the attack on the 17th, in the evening.

MR DU PLESSIS: Who is this person by the name of Danie?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Danie is one of the Police working for the Murder and Robbery Unit.  I just know him to be Danie.

MR DU PLESSIS: How do you know his name?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I used to hear people when they were talking, calling him Danie.

MR DU PLESSIS: Now, I refer you to paragraph 7 on page 19, the second sentence and I will read it out to you
"... Peens and Danie also said that they would supply Rooikop with weapons and he should give them to Themba Khosa, who would bring them to the hostel ..."

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know anything about that.

MR DU PLESSIS: Sir, can you remember who took down this statement from you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I cannot recall.  I did indicate that several people came to take statements from me.

MR DU PLESSIS: If I put it to you that Mr Kjellberg took this statement from you, what would you say about that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot dispute that.

MR DU PLESSIS: Do you know Mr Kjellberg?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I am hearing the name for the first time.

MR DU PLESSIS: Have you ever consulted with Mr Kjellberg?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I cannot recall, there were many of these people who came to me.

MR DU PLESSIS: Do you know a person by the name of Jan?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR DU PLESSIS: This statement was supposed to be taken by Mr Jan Ike Kjellberg, do you know if there is any reason why he would put down all of this information, which he didn't get from you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying the person who was interpreting for me, was not doing a good job, and I had difficulty communicating.

CHAIRPERSON: What language was this person speaking who was interpreting for you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying he was speaking Zulu, but he was not fluent, because he was a Sotho speaking person.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the Interpreter - wait, just listen to the question before you answer it - the person who interpreted for you, what language did he speak to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He was communicating to me in Zulu, but his Zulu was not fluent, he was not fluent in the language.

CHAIRPERSON: Where does the Sotho come in then?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying he said to me he is a Sotho speaking person, he was going to try as much as he could to speak Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you request for a Zulu speaking Interpreter?