Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-21

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I have already explained that.  I was going to do what came to my mind which is to kill them in the very same manner that they killed people here in Bophuthatswana.

MR TERREBLANCHE: So you did what came into your mind.  What came to your mind was to kill these people, those three people who were lying there.  Is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Please repeat your question.

MR TERREBLANCHE: It came into your mind that you had to protect the nation and to do so you must kill these people: "That is why I went there, to kill these people".  That is what you told me, I just don't know if I heard you correctly.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Mr Terreblanche, we were in a war situation and in that situation you don't go to see if somebody is armed or not.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Yes you only kill, that is what you are saying.  I accept that you wanted to kill them.
	You say, you did that because these three people killed other people.  Did you see these people killing someone else?  These three people who you have read about in the documents and there were allegations that there were people on a pick-up who were shooting at people but these three people in the blue Mercedes?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: As I have already explained they had already shot somebody who was standing next to me in the thigh.

MR TERREBLANCHE: They shot him dead.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: They shot him in the thigh and they did not kill him.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Someone else?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: And the other one was shot in the belly.  As to whether he or she died, I do not know.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Now do you know which of these three people killed or shot the one guy in the thigh and the other one in the belly?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I do not know, but because he was one of the AWB members who was firing, that is why I did what I did which is shooting them.
	Furthermore, if somebody is shooting from a car, you cannot notice as to which one is shooting of the three and what kind of a firearm is he or she using.

MR TERREBLANCHE: So because you do not know who shot you decided that because this person is a member of the AWB, you decide you will kill all the members of the AWB you find.  You found three members of the AWB, you shot all of them.  If there were four would you have shot all of them as well?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I won't answer that.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Because I am saying you couldn't tell whether they were AWB members, maybe you could tell one was an AWB member, but how did you know all of them were AWB?  Did you know that they were AWB?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Please repeat the question.  Please repeat your question.

MR TERREBLANCHE: How did you know that they were AWB members?  You said that because you couldn't see and they were AWB members, you shot all three of them.  Now I am asking you, how did you know they were AWB members?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: These men were dressed in khaki, khaki uniforms of which you always identify with the AWB whenever you see them in the television and in the newspapers.  And moreover I had already learnt that the AWB members were in Mafikeng and I know that is the dress code of the AWB.  Moreover they were coming from the direction of Mmabatho.

MR TERREBLANCHE: It was the dress code of the AWB to do what?  Do you mean the clothes or do you mean their way of behaving?

ADV MOTATA: Mr Terreblanche, the three who were shot, is it in dispute whether they were members of the AWB?  Are we disputing this?

MR TERREBLANCHE: Honourable Judge, because he said, because they were AWB members, he shot them.  Now it is in dispute.  I want to know how did he know they were AWB?

CHAIRPERSON: Is what the witness has said is that he reached the conclusion that they were AWB members because they were dressed in khaki and because he had heard that the AWB were in town.  And that was the conclusion reached by him.  You can ask him if he specifically knew whether those three particular people were card carrying members, but I don't think you will get anywhere on that one.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Chairperson, I just want to ask the applicant, behind me we have three members in khaki clothes, they are colleagues of his.  They are security police.  I am also in khaki outfit.  The question I want to ask is you are saying because they were AWB, you shot them.  So you wanted to shoot AWB people and you accepted that they were AWB because they were dressed in khaki.  You are not shooting now because, because somebody now tried to go for his weapon.

CHAIRPERSON: That they were dressed in khaki and that he had learnt that the AWB were in town.

ADV MOTATA: And further that when he first noticed the car they were shooting out of the car, that is his evidence and in his mind he concluded immediately that these are the AWB members.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Thank you, Chairperson.  I went through the documents and you have mentioned that the Volksfront and the AWB had different groupings, here now I want to ask you, did you think that all the people who were there were AWB's dressed in khaki?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Mr Terreblanche, I told you in depth that I had learnt that the AWB were in the defence force base in Bophuthatswana.  I told you that.

MR TERREBLANCHE: The question is simply ...(intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Mr Terreblanche, is it your case, or is it the case of the victim's families that people who were shot were not AWB members because I don't think this line of questioning is going to take us any further if they were in fact AWB people.  Is that what you are going to put to the witness that they were not AWB people?

MR TERREBLANCHE: No, Chairperson.  What I want to put to the witness is that they were white people and that he shot white people.

ADV SIGODI: The crux of the matter is that do you dispute that they were AWB people?

MR TERREBLANCHE: No it is not in dispute.

ADV SIGODI: take us any further to pursue this point if they were in fact AWB people.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Chairperson, with all respect, the point I am trying to make is, the witness shot these people because they were white and he wants to politicise this issue by saying that they were AWB because he says specifically, I shot them because they were AWB.  That was his answer to my question.  So I still have a problem with this.  I shoot them because they were AWB and I am asking him, how did you know they were AWB, I accept now his answer that he thought they were AWB but he can't say that he knew it at that stage because the Volksfront, the BKA, the ANC was also here and none of them shot a single shot.  But I'd leave it there.  Thank you for you time.
	The AWB, Mr Menyatsoe, you have no regard for the AWB, you don't like them at all, is that true?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That is not true.  I've never said I hate the AWB and I will never hate it.

MR TERREBLANCHE: I did not speak about hate.  I said you had no regards for them.  You did not like them.  Do you like the AWB or don't you like them?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: What I am saying is that I do not hate them which simply means I like them as human beings.  They are human beings.  We exist in the same earth.  I love them as just ordinary human beings, but they did not respect the black people.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Is that today or all time?  What is your information that they never respected people?  Was it only that day they didn't respect them or did they never respect them?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: According to my knowledge, the AWB has undermined and disrespected the black people from the 10th to the 11th by attacking them.  That is according to my experience and knowledge.