Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I remember that.

MR BOOYENS: What was Botha's contribution there?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: He is the one who said he was going to speak to the Investigators of the case and after the case had been dropped, I would be told to come out of hiding.

MR BOOYENS: Very well.  Well, Botha also denies that that happened.  He said he was never at such a meeting, he wasn't involved in something like that.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: He was indeed there, he is telling a lie.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.  Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

MR BOOYENS: .

UNKNOWN: Mr Luthuli, just on a follow up question on what Mr Booyens has asked you with regard to the meeting at 121 Battalion, in your affidavit at page 229 you actually stated that Mr Louis Botha was a member of the Planning Committee?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: What was the function of the Planning Committee with regard to the future activities of the Caprivians?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I can say as they were coming back, there was nothing already arranged and prepared for them inside, in the first Committee, that is where it was decided that now that they are back, what is it that they are going to do, how are they going to work?  That is where it was decided that they should be contra-mobilisation and offices were set up all over Natal and Botha  himself was there, and this first group had to stay in Port Dunfort, it should not leave the place.
	And attempts should be made to bring along appointment cards that would be given to the Caprivi strip members, because they were to be moving up and down with guns, so that Police should not give them trouble or arrest them, and it was indicated that Mhlanduna and this other person, should speak with Matte so that they can prepare the cards and give them to the people so that they should not be arrested and when they actually were arrested, that is when it transpired that this is indeed the underground movement of the IFP.
	Botha himself was present when this was being discussed.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewit, I see that it is now five to four.

MR HEWIT: Would this be a convenient stage, unless there are any other persons with questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I think what I intend to do is I will give you an opportunity to cross-examine and I will give Mr Stuart an opportunity with regard to re-examination and then after that, I will ask the members of the panel if they have any questions, and then again after that, whether there is any questions arising out of the questions put by members of the panel.
	So, you are next in the queue for questions.

MR HEWIT: So would this then be a convenient stage to adjourn?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And also I will be asking Mr Mpshe if, well perhaps Mr Mpshe, do you want to at this stage, have you got any questions you would like to ask?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I would appreciate it if I do it after every member has ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that is what normally happens as well, but before the re-examination?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Before the re-examination, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Until what time shall we adjourn tomorrow morning, will half past nine be convenient?

MR HEWIT: 09h30 Mr Chairman, we've made fairly good progress.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  We have now come to the end of today's proceedings, and we will be adjourning and will reconvening here again tomorrow morning at 09h30.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody, at the close of proceedings yesterday, Mr Hewit was about to commence with his questioning of the witness, Mr Luthuli.  Mr Hewit, are you ...

MR HEWIT: I am ready Mr Chairman, thank you.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (still under oath)

MR HEWIT: May I proceed Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly Mr Hewit.

MR HEWIT: Mr Luthuli, do you have in front of you the affidavit which you deposed to and which you put up in support of your present application for amnesty?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I think so.

MR HEWIT: There doesn't appear to be any translation.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I think so.

CHAIRPERSON: I've got translation on mine, Mr Hewit.  Have you put your volume up?

MR HEWIT: What was your answer to that question Mr Luthuli?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I said I think so.

MR HEWIT: Right, now please turn to page 340 of the papers before you.  That is the handwritten page 340 and the typed page 129 of your affidavit.  Do you have that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Just a moment.

MR HEWIT: In particular I want you to look at paragraph 50.5 at the foot of that page.   It is the third last page from the end of your affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: It is on the typed page number 129 of your affidavit, page 340 of the bundle, paragraph 50.5, right at the bottom of the page.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Okay, yes I did locate it.

MR HEWIT: Okay, on paragraph 50.5 you state under oath Ii am able to read, write and speak English fluently, do you see that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Do you confirm that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I do.

MR HEWIT: Right, now I want you to turn please to page 341, that is the following page, and in particular to paragraph 50.7 where you state all the various criminal acts which I have committed and which I have mentioned were motivated by political ends.
	I have not been involved in any of them for any personal interest, and I have not received any personal reward.  Do you see that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Do you confirm that here today?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Right, now I want to refer to the very beginning of your affidavit, and in particular page 207.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewit, page 207 is the application form.

MR HEWIT: The actual typed questionnaire to which you have responded with certain answers, do you see that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Now, on the typed page 5 under the sub-paragraph (c) at the top, the question is did you benefit in any way financially or otherwise, do you see that question?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: And do you see that the answer which you have given is no?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: And this was the same question that was asked to you yesterday by my learned friend for the victims, namely Mr Ngubane on my right hand side?  Do you see that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Now please turn to page 222 of the affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: That is page 13 of the affidavit, typed page 13, page 222 of the bundle.

MR HEWIT: Do you have that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: I want you to look at paragraph 5.27 where you say the trainees each received a monthly salary, each month M.Z. Khumalo arrived at the camp and paid us.  I received a salary of about R400-00 to R500-00 per month.  Is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Why did you then say in answer to that first question, the earlier question that I asked you that you received no remuneration, you didn't benefit in any way financially?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I replied yesterday that the question was if you were doing your work, were you doing it because you were rewarded or not.  And I said I was receiving my monthly salary just like anyone else.

MR HEWIT: Right, I want you now to go to page 330 of the record, which is typed page 119.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: I want you to look at paragraph 44.1 which reads as follows:  from the time that I arrived at the Caprivi with the trainees, I was paid a salary.  My salary was initially between R400-00 and R500-00 per month.  After returning from the training my salary was increased to R2 200-00 per month.  I used to receive an annual bonus of about R2 000-00.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.