Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV NYOKA: Then Mr Ngoi, Mr Fazi and Mr Malgas, those were the four that were - the names that were conveyed to Mr Hashe and when Mr Hashe came he reported this and said there was Mr Godolozi and Mr Galela inside the house with others and he said: " ...[indistinct] you boys, let's go to the airport - accompany me later on" that's how they got involved just by chance.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV NYOKA: You cannot dispute that because you don't know how he managed to lure the three, you said so.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I pertinently gave him the instruction to get the three, that was my instruction that I had to carry out - the instruction that I got from Major du Plessis.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, who couldn't go because he had to go somewhere else?

ADV NYOKA: Mr Fazi and Mr Ngoi, they had to go and meet Mrs Molly Blackburn in Utenhage who strangely died that very year in December 1985.
	My point Mr Nieuwoudt, is that since your source did not detail how he managed to lure these three, you could not have known what happened - how he managed to do it, you did not even bother to ask him how he managed to do so.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I gave him the instruction for those three people and those three people arrived at the airport.

ADV NYOKA: Do you know where your source phoned to ensure that these three went to the airport, do you know which place he phoned because we know it's a he?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV NYOKA: What place?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: He phoned Mr Hashe's house.

ADV NYOKA: No, the information that I have is that the source phoned the UDF offices in Zwede and this information was relayed to Mrs Hashe.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV NYOKA: Unless of course the source was inside the UDF offices, unless of course the source was inside the UDF offices and did not phone from elsewhere, any comment?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I do no wish to comment on that.

ADV NYOKA: But you don't know - why do you not - all right, you don't know, why are you reluctant to comment?  Am I coming closer to the truth?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nyoka, I missed something, you said - you asked the witness whether he knew as to where to the call was made.

ADV NYOKA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you say in that regard - how did you put it to the witness in that regard?

ADV NYOKA: I asked whether he knew which place the source phoned for the three to go to the airport and the answer was that he phoned Mr Hashe's place.  My comment is twofold Mr Chairman, in that either the source really came from wherever he was to the UDF offices which message was conveyed to Mr Hashe's place or the source phoned from the UDF offices to Mr Hashe's place.

CHAIRPERSON: But was the call made to Mr Hashe's house?

ADV NYOKA: No, it was made to a neighbourhood.

CHAIRPERSON: To a what?

ADV NYOKA: To a neighbourhood and Mr Hashe was called to go to next door or whatever to answer the phone.  On the other side it was Mr Fazi who said we have got a message that we must go to meet a British Diplomat but because - and he mentioned the names, himself, Mr Hashe, Mr Ngoi and Mr Malgas but because he and Mr Ngoi had a commitment elsewhere, he would like him to go with others.
	He did not mention who those others were but because Mr Godolozi and Mr Galela were there, Mr Hashe being an elderly person said: "...[indistinct], accompany me to the airport" - those are my instructions.  So it was just by chance that Mr Galela and Godolozi were there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nieuwoudt, is your evidence that as far as you know, your source phoned directly Mr Hashe's house?  Is that as far as you know?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is as far as I know.

ADV NYOKA: My instructions - recent, fresh instruction, are that they did not have a phone, they used a neighbours phone - just now, so it could not have - it was a physical impossibility that Mr Hashe's house was phoned by virtue of the fact that they did not have a phone and there were no cellulars at that time Mr Nieuwoudt - on a light note.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Can I just refer you to the microfiche that was submitted of Mr Hashe,  ...[indistinct] Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we have it in front of us.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: The last page 85 02 23 and just below that 85 05 03, he contacted Tozamila Botha of the ANC in Lusaka, he urgently asks for money and that was a telephone discussion that we pick up from his home.  (transcriber's own translation)

ADV NYOKA: What months were those, we know it's '85 but what months were those?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was in May the Friday, it was the 3rd, four days before they were abducted, before the 8th - five days.

ADV NYOKA: You don't know whether the phone did not - if that is correct which is being denied, you don't know whether the phone was working on the 8th of May at their house, you don't know about that despite your microfilms or microfiches.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, it's quite clear that it worked otherwise I would not have had the information.

ADV NYOKA: You don't know for a fact whether your source would not tell you whether he phoned Mr Hashe - Mr Hashe's place?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: My information that I received from him is that he phoned Mr Hashe and I have no reason to distrust him.

ADV NYOKA: All right, I will not belabour the point.  Was this source just an informer or an ordinary person or a member of the Pebco Executive - three choices?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: He was a collaborator.

ADV NYOKA: That's too vague Mr Nieuwoudt, a collaborator can be an informer, an executive person or an ordinary person, can you please be specific?  It's too broad to be a collaborator, it means anyone who works with someone else, not so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I used him as a collaborator.

ADV NYOKA: Was he an informer in the ordinary sense of being an informer or was he an ordinary member or an executive of Pebco?  I don't want the name, I just want either of the three.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: He was a member of Pebco.

ADV NYOKA: I gather that you are not interested to tell the public who he was but are you not keen to have - to take the Committee in your confidence and tell them in camera who this source was because they must be convinced that your are - you are making a full disclosure Mr Nieuwoudt?  I may not be interested to know but can you tell the Committee in camera - we adjourn, you tell them who your source was?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: With respect, I'm not prepared to do that for the following reason: ...[intervention]

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I don't want to interrupt here, I just - in all fairness because I have knowledge of this and Mr Britz also and yourself and Mr de Jager, want to refer to the decision that was made by the Committee in the Ribero incident where a argument was addressed to the Committee by myself and my learned friend Mr Curren - if you will recall, about the question in the identity of an informer and the disclosure thereof is necessary for purposes of full disclosure in an amnesty application.
	And the decision there was that the disclosure of the name of such an informer is not necessary for purposes of full disclosure.  You will remember that some of the arguments that were raised during that application was specifically the fact the disclosure of such a name will really put such a person's life in danger.  I don't want to interrupt unnecessarily, I just wanted to make that point and refer you to that.