Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

FRANK CHIKANE: My answer to that is, I'll revert to the young people because then I don't want to be talking about a constituted club playing soccer.

MR UNTERHALTER: No, certainly.

FRANK CHIKANE: I referred to the young people who were in the house.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes, I'm just simply seeking to establish one point because it was a bit unclear earlier, which is that it was Mrs Mandela who wanted the club to remain in existence when you had requested her to disband the club, is that correct?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: We requested that the club be disbanded and she refused.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.  And therefore my other question - and perhaps Mr Mufamadi, you could answer it was that at the time that you then came to see Mrs Mandela and investigate the abductions and the young people in the house, at that stage the club was still in existence?  Is that correct?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: I'm afraid again I'm mindful of the earlier discussion about the perception that there was a club and somebody would want to say it was not really a club and so on, but the fact of the matter is that the young people who were understood to be members of the football club were still there.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes, I take that answer with all the qualifications that you give it.  I want then to turn again - and perhaps Mr Mufamadi, I can ask this of you because my client Dudu Chili will say that she informed certain structures of which she was a member - particularly the Soweto Women's Committee, as early as the 30th of December 1988, of the abduction of the boys or the young people from the Manse and that it was then reported on in the UDF structures from that time.  Is that anything that you would know about?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Well, you probably will agree with me that I did not belong to any of the Women's structures in Soweto.

MR UNTERHALTER: No, I accept that.

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: But it's possible that she informed them, it's possible that the matter was discussed as a consequence of her having informed them in one of the UDF structures.

MR UNTERHALTER: And given the nature of the allegations, this is the sort of matter that would have been acted on reasonably promptly, wouldn't it?

CHAIRPERSON: Your five minutes is up but how many more?

MR UNTERHALTER: Mr Chairman, I need about two to three more minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.

MR UNTERHALTER: But I am trying to bowl on the wickets.

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: ...[inaudible] by whom?  Well, let me say this much as well, if you look at what we did around the issue of the burning of the house and if you follow our submission very closely, you will realise that there came a time when we sort of became a little bit dormant until we received requests - I'm talking ourselves as this collective, we received a request to assist with the issue of the children.

MR UNTERHALTER: Mr Mufamadi, perhaps I can then turn to your visits to the Mandela house and  particularly with Mrs Mandela - I'm not concerned as to exactly when it happened, we know that you had these visits and you did your investigations.   You've noted in your summary and your presentation that there were problems that you encountered, there were things troubled and concerned you and Stompie was one, what Katiza had to say was another and the strange explanations about the assaults but you principal concern was the safety of the young people, is that correct?
 Now, what I want to ask you is this - just for the record, the Minister nodded his head at that point and assented.   What I really want to ask you is this, it was evident was it not that you actually had to secure the release of these young people, is that correct?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: It is.

MR UNTERHALTER: And the person from whom you had to secure their release was Mrs Mandela?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: That's correct.

MR UNTERHALTER: And therefore you had to have a negotiation with her for that purpose.

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: That's correct.

MR UNTERHALTER: It was not a situation where you walked into the house, you said: "I believe there are people living here" and the people were just brought and asked whether they wanted to come and go as they chose, that was not the position?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: It wasn't the position.

MR UNTERHALTER: So, to put as bluntly as possible, this was a situation where you had to negotiate the young people's release out of a situation of some cohesion?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Yes, and we had to try and be as diplomatic as possible whilst at the same time we needed to be as assertive as possible.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: You can imagine how difficult it was to strike a balance between those things.

MR UNTERHALTER: Yes.  And you had to strike that balance and be diplomatic because there was one person who held to key to the release of these people and that was Mrs Mandela?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Yes.

MR UNTERHALTER: Now ordinarily three people, particularly adults can come and go as they choose, they don't depend on the say so of another adult person, you would accept that Mr Mufamadi?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Sure.

MR MOKOENA: I'm not sure about the key, "the holding of the key".  The implications of there was one person who had the key.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mokoena, please the answer has been given.  Unless you disagree with the answer which seems to be presented, do that but please do it through me.  I don't want to appear tough but do answer through me.

MR MOKOENA: I apologise Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MOKOENA: I wanted to find out the implications of this person who: "held the key".

MR UNTERHALTER: I'm in the fortunate position where I don't have to answer questions and I didn't direct a question to you.

MR MOKOENA: I was conscious of the fact that the word: "key" was used and perhaps I need to explain.  I'm a family man and if you come to my house and you want to have somebody who is in my house - with my permission remove from my house, I hold the key.

MR UNTERHALTER: That might be true in the case of a father to his children but not as between adults.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, the point I'm making is - in that situation we knew if we negotiated and we were successful with Mrs Mandela, we would have secured the release of the children and that's the point I'm making.

MR UNTERHALTER: Can I just ask one further questions of Reverend Chikane?  You said that you had a five hour ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just warn you, it's must be your last question because it is more than 10 minutes now.

MR UNTERHALTER: I've got literally two questions and that's it.
 Reverend Chikane, I just want to ask you this, you spoke of a five hour meeting with Mrs Mandela at which meeting the contents of Annexure C was discussed and that was one of the reasons why it took time to make progress, is that correct?

FRANK CHIKANE: The discussion was about the document itself rather than the contents thereof.

MR UNTERHALTER: I understand.

FRANK CHIKANE: The standing of the document, who released it, how could the Crisis Committee do such a thing etc., that was the discussion and it took quite some time.

MR UNTERHALTER: Reverend Chikane finally, are you aware of the fact that Dudu Chili's house was attacked an destroyed and we say that was at the instance of the Mandela Football Club, do you know of the destruction of her house?

FRANK CHIKANE: Where is the house, just remind me?

MR UNTERHALTER: I can get you the details of it but I'll tell you what my client will say - that she had a conversation with you about this incident and that you showed considerable interest and concern about it in and around February 1989 and thereafter she heard nothing more from you.  Can you confirm or deny that?

FRANK CHIKANE: I don't remember that, that's why I'm asking which house because I remember I was called to a house in Dube at one stage which was attacked etc., I would remember the name of the person and the owner, I've no idea.