Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1988-01-19

MR VISSER: I put it to you that all these people will deny your allegations that you were assaulted as you've alleged here today.  	Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR DU PLESSIS: No questions from this side Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

ADV MEMANI: May I take instructions Mr Chairman?  Thank
you Mr Chairman.
	Now Mr Mzuzwana, is it correct that you are not aware of the participation of Ngo and Motsamai in the incident during which you were shot?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: Yes, I don't remember.

ADV MEMANI: Then you are not in a position to contradict their evidence?

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: No.

ADV MEMANI: Those are my questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

MR BRINK: No thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I notice that it is a quarter to four and we still have one witness, Mr Jwayi.  I took instructions during the recess, his statement has not been attested to because I haven't seen him before, nor have I duplicated the statement.  If you would allow me I can place his evidence before you and then I can bring you the sworn affidavit tomorrow morning.  The other possibility is that we can adjourn now and I can ensure that I have everything correct by tomorrow morning.  ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I'm told that the hall is available to us until 6 o'clock.

MR STANDER: This is in your hands.

MR STANDER: I call Khusane Jwayi.  I'm going to spell it: K-h-u-s-a-n-e J-w-a-y-i.

KHUSANE JWAYI: (sworn states)

MR STANDER: Mr Jwayi, is it correct that you are also A prejudiced person in the amnesty applications for Ngo and Motsamai?

KHUSANE JWAYI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Please tell me, were you part of the group of people who decided to leave the country and who were arrested just before you crossed the river in the Ladybrand district?

KHUSANE JWAYI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Can you recall when it was?

KHUSANE JWAYI: It was on the 6th of April 1986.

MR STANDER: Can you recall who was with you?  Give me two names if you can.

KHUSANE JWAYI: That's China and Oupa.

MR STANDER: If you say China, are you referring to Shadrack Oliphant?

KHUSANE JWAYI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: And Oupa?

KHUSANE JWAYI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Were you a member of the leadership group?

KHUSANE JWAYI: No, that is not correct.

MR STANDER: Is it correct that after you were arrested you were taken to the police station at Ladybrand?

KHUSANE JWAYI: After we were arrested by soldiers they transferred us to the police.

MR STANDER: Is it true that you eventually ended up in Fountain Street with the security police?

KHUSANE JWAYI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: What happened to you there?

KHUSANE JWAYI: I was interrogated and then thereafter I was assaulted if I was not responding the way they wanted to the questions they asked me.

MR STANDER: By whom were you assaulted?

KHUSANE JWAYI: Whom I would say was chiefly responsible, is Killian.

MR STANDER: Did you see Motsamai and Ngo as part of the security police?  Were they present?

ADV DE JAGER: I think the question formed part of the answer.  Was the answer Killian?

KHUSANE JWAYI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: I did not hear the answer.  Was Mr Motsamai and Ngo also members of the security police at that stage?

KHUSANE JWAYI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Did you also see them there?

KHUSANE JWAYI: On they day they made the guard of honour when we arrived yes, they were present.

MR STANDER: What did Mr Killian do to you?

KHUSANE JWAYI: He assaulted me more than any other policeman.

MR STANDER: I want you to tell us what he did.

KHUSANE JWAYI: He assaulted me the way I was not assaulted before.

MR STANDER: What did he do?

KHUSANE JWAYI: He was hitting me with fists, he was hitting me a certain belt which is so thick and then he was using a tube, he pressing me on the floor.

MR STANDER: Why did these assaults on you take place, what was the reason for it?

KHUSANE JWAYI: It is because China and Oupa were our leaders and that at times they - my sister's house was used as a hiding place, that is why he was doing all those things in assaulting me.

MR STANDER: Were you released later?

KHUSANE JWAYI: Do you mean I was released from the police or meaning from Chilean's hands?

MR STANDER: That's correct, yes, from Killian.  Did Killian release you?  Were you taken away from him?

KHUSANE JWAYI: They took me to the kitchen but they used to go and fetch me there from the kitchen.

MR STANDER: Was it only Killian that was involved in these assaults every time?

KHUSANE JWAYI: There is a time when we were assaulted, they would use this tube to press me on the floor and the way you were kicked you would feel that it's not only one person who took part but you would feel that it's not only one person who takes part in the assault.  It shows that when he was putting a tube on my face there were other people who took part in the assault.

MR STANDER: So you don't know who it was?

KHUSANE JWAYI: I didn't see them.

MR STANDER: Were you released after these assaults had continued?

KHUSANE JWAYI: I was not released from Fountain, I was always there at Fountain.  They assaulted us around 5 o'clock and then at 5 o'clock they took us to the police stations.

MR STANDER: Were you brought back to Fountain Street the next day again?

KHUSANE JWAYI: Yes, they returned us to fountain street.

MR STANDER: Were you assaulted the next day again?

KHUSANE JWAYI: It was not the same as yesterday but they used their open hands so that we should tell them the truth.

MR STANDER: Was it once again Mr Killian who was involved?

KHUSANE JWAYI: The person whom I remember is Kopie.

MR STANDER: What did he do to you?

KHUSANE JWAYI: He assaulted me with open hands, that I don't want to tell the truth.

MR STANDER: What did he want you to say?

KHUSANE JWAYI: They wanted me to confirm that China and Oupa were part of our leadership and agree with the places they identified as hiding places.  When I disputed that, they started with assaults because they wanted me to confirm what they were saying to me.

MR STANDER: For how many days were you taken to Fountain Street?

KHUSANE JWAYI: For the first day they assaulted us, then they took us back again to Fountain but they ...[End of Tape 2 side A - no follow-on sound]  days, then after that they would come and collect us again to take us to Fountain.

MR STANDER: Were you assaulted on those occasions again?

KHUSANE JWAYI: No, we were not assaulted.

MR STANDER: What did they expect you to do on the following days?

KHUSANE JWAYI: They wanted me to work with them to be the informer and when I realised it's that they wanted us to confirm what they were saying so that we should be state witnesses so that those who were in the leadership should be - when they were charged, we should be state witnesses.

MR STANDER: Were you state witnesses?

KHUSANE JWAYI: Yes, they told us that we were state witnesses therefore they were not going to charge us, the charges were against China and Oupa.

MR STANDER: You were released at a later stage?

KHUSANE JWAYI: After they were acquitted we were released.

MR STANDER: I have no further questions to this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

ADV DE JAGER: It is not clear to me whether he gave evidence or testified in court.
	Did you testify in court?

KHUSANE JWAYI: No. I was behind on the list so that those who were a little bit younger would come later.  The third person was made a state witness.  The second and the third, they didn't go on with the case.