Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, no, but I realise that, but then I thought you will be naming persons up to this afternoon four o'clock and I wanted to cut it short.  But perhaps you should - you did not give us all the names, but give us a few names from each section, please.

CAPT BOKABA: Thank you, Chairman.  From Soshanguve, they were under the command of Capt Van Jaarsveld.  We have a Jabu Gomba, the other one was Tive Mashaung, I can maybe such names, Mamelodi myself, Dennis Selahla, Capt Hechter, Warrant-Officer Van Wyk, briefly those are the names I can mention.

CHAIRPERSON: And did these people attend the conferences?

CAPT BOKABA: Exactly, yes, every morning we met around a table.

CHAIRPERSON: And sometimes in the afternoons?

CAPT BOKABA: That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And Capt Loots himself, of course.

CAPT BOKABA: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And you also told us that you used a yellow Colt Galant?

CAPT BOKABA: That is correct, Sir.

ADV MEMANI: And do you want us to believe that you used that yellow Colt Galant for a full two years and no other vehicle?

CAPT BOKABA: Afterwards there were other vehicles that I used.

ADV MEMANI: And those vehicles included an E-20 and a Corolla?

CAPT BOKABA: I think I used the E-20 white mini-bus, I used
it in 1990.  Col Loots had already left. At that time I was working under the command of Van der Westhuizen, who is now a director and at headquarters, at the moment, I am working under him.

ADV MEMANI: And Ngo was in prison in 1990?

CAPT BOKABA: From the records I could observe that he was in jail at that time.

ADV MEMANI: So Ngo must have known that you were using a white E-20 before he went to prison?

CAPT BOKABA: I do not know, I heard this for the first time yesterday when he gave evidence.

ADV MEMANI: And you could not have been a member of the security branch and used one vehicle for two years because people you would be monitoring and investigating would be aware of you and what vehicle you were using.

CAPT BOKABA: You could use a car for more than two years to three years, as long as it was mechanically okay.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Besides the E-20, did you use any other car after the Colt Galant?

CAPT BOKABA: Yes, I did.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Which car was that?

CAPT BOKABA: A blue Mitshubisi Husky.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And that was between the Galant and the E-20?

CAPT BOKABA: That is correct, Sir.

ADV MEMANI: And what was put to Ngo categorically, was that you used one vehicle and one vehicle only, the yellow Colt Galant.

CAPT BOKABA: May you repeat the question?

ADV MEMANI: What was put to Ngo, categorically, was that you used the yellow Colt Galant and only the yellow Colt Galant.

CAPT BOKABA: I used the yellow Colt Galant and that vehicle I used to accompany Ngo to the security offices. You didn't ask me how long I used this vehicle.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No, I am telling you that what your legal representatives put to Ngo, is that you used the yellow Colt Galant and only the yellow Colt Galant.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, what was put, was that he used the yellow Colt Galant during the time during which Mr Ngo allegedly worked with Bokaba.

ADV MEMANI: And that period is two years.

CAPT BOKABA: Are you waiting for a response?

ADV MEMANI: Do you have a response?

CAPT BOKABA: (No audible reply).

ADV MEMANI: Do you have any comment?

CAPT BOKABA: I used the Colt Galant. Afterwards I used the Husky, Mitshubisi Husky, I believe it is a mini-bus.

ADV MEMANI: I put it to you that you now are amending your evidence, because you realise that the proposition that you would have used only one vehicle for two years is untenable.

CAPT BOKABA: I do not have a response on what you are saying.

ADV MEMANI: Yes, you should not have.  Now the next thing  ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Could you tell me, did Danny Boy, or Slang, did he have the same vehicle or did he have another vehicle?

CAPT BOKABA: Myself and Danny Boy used one vehicle, together.

ADV DE JAGER: And the other officer there, Mr Selahla?

CAPT BOKABA: Selahla is Danny Boy.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay. Who was working with you also?  What vehicle did Leonard use for instance at the beginning or weren't you there when Leonard was working there?

CAPT BOKABA: Who is Leonard, Sir?  I do not know him.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, no, I believe you came after Leonard had already left.  Mr Du Plessis, who was the other person?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, he worked with Danny Selahla, that is Dannyboy Selahla.  That is the person he worked with and then there was Johannes Hlongwane at some stage in the beginning.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes?

CAPT BOKABA: Are you referring to Warrant-Officer Dumira, who is Leonard maybe?

ADV DE JAGER: Yes. Yes.

CAPT BOKABA: Leonard Dumira, I often saw him with Hlongwane. They used the same yellow Colt Galant vehicle.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Bokaba, Ngo should therefore be right when he says that you could not have been using one vehicle.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, he testified that there were two vehicles used, but he never said that they could not have used one vehicle. He testified that they used two vehicles.

ADV MEMANI: Yes, therefore my instructions are correct that you could not have been using one vehicle, because at times your vehicle was used by another person, the same vehicle you used.

CAPT BOKABA: Let me explain in this fashion. I told you of mechanical fault. That car was not used by the police because of mechanical problems.  And we had to get transport.  We were then given the blue Mitshubisi Husky mini-bus.  Then I used it with Dannyboy Selahla.

ADV MEMANI: And when did Hlongwane use it?

CAPT BOKABA: Are you referring to the Colt Galant?

ADV MEMANI: Yes, yes. Yes, yes.

CAPT BOKABA: When I joined the security branch on the 1st of May 1986, I came across Warrant-Officer Hlongwane using the same Galant, a yellow Colt Galant.

ADV MEMANI: Now let us not belabour the point.  You told us that you worked with Selahla and the two of you reported to Loots.

CAPT BOKABA: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And was that the position during 1987 up to 1989?

CAPT BOKABA: I started on the 1st of May 1986, Danny Selahla joined me somewhere in November, December 1987.  That is the process we engaged ourselves in in December 1990.

ADV MEMANI: And you were the only two Black policemen in the security branch there?

CHAIRPERSON: Were you the only two Black policemen in the security branch?

ADV MEMANI: In Mamelodi, M'Lord.

CAPT BOKABA: It was myself and Dannyboy Selahla who were Black policemen in Mamelodi at this security branch.

ADV MEMANI: So there were only the two of you?

CAPT BOKABA: Myself and Dannyboy Selahla.  Myself and Dannyboy Selahla, we were the only two Black security branch officers in Mamelodi.

ADV MEMANI: And Ngo who was not in the security branch, knows that you were the only two policemen who worked in Mamelodi for two years.

CAPT BOKABA: But I don't know how to explain this. It might happen that he knew that we were security branch police who worked in Mamelodi.  It can be possible that he knows that
we worked as security police officers in Mamelodi. I do not know.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, his evidence was not that they were the only ones.  His evidence was that those were the ones he worked with and those were the ones he knew, and he didn't know of any other security policemen.

ADV MEMANI: And your witness says, your client says that they were the only two policemen?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, but the evidence of Mr Ngo was not that he knew that they were the only two security policemen in Mamelodi.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Selahla, my instructions are that you were the only two Black  ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bokaba.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Bokaba, my instructions are that you were the only two Black policemen together with Ngo, who worked at Mamelodi during 1987 to 1989.