Human Rights Violation Hearings — Karoo — 1996-10-08

MS SEROKE: Thank you Mr Nkumbi -  I asked you firstly what was the situation in Hanover at that time.  I will read to you the report from our researchers  and I will tell you their report about the conflict around this place and the conflict between the UDF comrades and the leaders or the councillors.
[indistinct] the activity in Hanover, with the [indistinct] meeting in [indistinct] on 17 April 1985 to discuss grievances.  This meeting initiated the formation of the Hanover Residence Association as well as a youth organisation.
This initiative immediately launched a campaign against the councillors in the community who were unwilling to be drawn into this structures.  Calls were made for the councillors to leave the township.  It was alleged the Mayor of the township was beaten and his household goods burnt in [indistinct]
Toi-toi's were held with songs that called for the removal of the councillors - there were allegedly incidents where councillors drove into toi-toiing crowds - police also acted against this groups firing rubber bullets and tear gas. 
 It is said that the situation was so bad that the councillors had to leave the township and they had to stay in the tents.  Again it is said that Mr Mslaba the one you referred to in your statement was the one who was a mayor at that time.  I don't know you said that he was known as an informer - I don't know whether you  are aware that he was the Mayor.

MR NKUMBI: I do hear the report but the allegation that he was an informer as I recall  he doesn't even remember that meeting -   17th April meeting.  If he was there he would have stepped down.  It is the first time I hear this - I went with [indistinct] to reverend [indistinct] because I wanted to know the situation concerning Mr Mslaba but the pastor - the reverend didn't tell me what was happening.
 It is the first time I hear from you.  The reverend told me that I am going there on my own risk - [[indistinct] and Monge [indistinct] took me to the reverent at that time and I was not aware of what was happening at that time.
 In Phillipstown I was involved in the youth activities, but here I didn't understand the situation.  It was clear that the reverent was lying.  He had differences with Mr Mslaba in the church.  The report you just gave me is not so, I know that the conflict between Mr Mslaba and the reverent was within the church, it's not because Mr Mslaba was a Mayor.  This is a blatant lie.

MS SEROKE: The report continued to say that Mr Alfred Tozamele Nkumbi he was accused that he stabbed a woman and that is why people were looking for him because he stabbed this woman.

MR NKUMBI: Yes I agree with that, this is [indistinct] and he stabbed her because this woman accused him of being an informer.  My question is that why did they use my brother's wife to go to the township and take his clothes - why didn't they go first to my brother.

MS SEROKE: In other words you are accusing your brother's wife for all this.

MR NKUMBI: Yes because his wife knew that my brother stabbed this woman why did she want him back in the township.  Why did this reverend say that my brother can come to the township and he will be secured.

MS SEROKE: What I am trying to find out is what was the real cause of the conflict amongst the people in the township - amongst the black people in the township.   It was the Government which was trying to use people against other people.  This is what caused the differences amongst people in the township.
 We are very hurt that people died in all sides - they died in the tents, they died in the location.  We ask that since we can see that you are so frustrated with this and you are so hurt with this - and you are so angry with the UDF leader reverend - is there any other thing you want to say to this Commission concerning your grievances.

MR NKUMBI: There is a lot I can say to this Truth Commission.  Here in Hanover in 1993 on the 16th of June I was passing through the hall - I was coming from Noupoort at that time.  The situation was also bad in Noupoort.  On that day I was not aware that anything can happen to me.  Even the people who were toi-toiing gave me way to pass through to go to my home.
 At eleven o'clock I am use to watch TV until 12 - but that day I slept early - I went to bed early.  Just before 12 - I was not really sleeping but I was just in bed - I heard a petrol bomb being thrown in my house.  I went outside but I couldn't see anyone - my children's bedroom was on fire at the time.  This shows that people  end of Tape 2, Side A ...  they did not confront me only my colleagues the teachers who came to me in the morning to try to comfort me and to support me.  
 Mr [indistinct] who was a Mayor at that time, didn't answer me, I wrote a letter to him and I wanted to know what was happening at that time.  And that - that showed me that I am not safe here in Hanover, I am trying to do things for people in Hanover but they are against me - even now I am staying in town - I was elected - I was a member of the TLC but I could see that people of Hanover are against me.
 Even this - even not one who can say that I have done a bad thing to them.  It's only God who knows - even those people who burnt my house - they were taken out of the prison, that's why I wrote this letter because I wanted to know why are they releasing the suspects from prison.  They are dead now and it's too late now because they are dead and people were saying that those who are dead now were the one's who stabbed Tozamele - when they were alive these things were not said.  I just want the truth.

MS SEROKE: Are you still a  teacher [indistinct].

MR NKUMBI: Yes.

MS SEROKE: Are you a teacher here in Hanover.

MR NKUMBI: Yes.

MS SEROKE: My request to you is that we want you to have peace and to forgive this people as a leader we would like you to try to open your heart and to forgive this people.  We will encourage that - I don't know if you are going to answer me.

MR NKUMBI: As I have already said, I am glad that the TRC has come here today - if I didn't have co-operation - my choir would not have been here today, this shows that I am not against the people of Hanover.  Nobody can come to me and say that I have done something bad to them.

MS SEROKE: Thank you very much - I would give this opportunity to the Chairperson.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] Mary Burton has already complimented you earlier  on the choir and the tremendous performance this morning, so it's quite clear that you are a person who is doing positive work in the community here in Hanover and looking at the circumstances of this case and listening to you and looking at you today, it's quite clear that this is still very much alive in your heart - this matter and understandably so.
 One of the accused that were sentenced to dead, Mr Booysen is at present the Mayor of this township is that correct?

MR NKUMBI: Yes that's correct he is a Mayor and there is no conflict between the two of us at this present time.

ADV POTGIETER: And the other accused in fact one of them will be testifying when you finished to talk about the same incident - have you had contact with the other - I noted that one of them is deceased and the others are - some of them are not mentally healthy but have you had contact with the other people - perhaps spoken with them.  Or do you think there is perhaps something to be gained in doing that?

MR NKUMBI: Yes I have spoken to them even when they were released from prison, some of them came to my house in the township in nr 310 in [indistinct] - even in Grahamstown we were chatting and if they didn't have food we use to give them food.
 We do understand that the conditions they were under - they were used at that time.  They did not do this - their own version.