Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1996-11-27

MR LAZARO: In that statement was - I went down -  I came down Swartklip Road, near Rondom factory and I have been standing there - my vehicle went stuck and I have been  standing there and five  people came to my attention and they tried to get me out of the car, so I wouldn't get out of the bakkie.
When - when I  wouldn't get out of the bakkie, the one draw a gun.   Then the four - tell me, well if I don't want to get out of the bakkie, he will shoot me out of the bakkie.  So, I got out of the bakkie.
They searched me and they took my money, they took my battery and they took my generator also and they said - this type of money you have got here is not enough, because we see you got a crate of - a chicken crate at the back.  You were on your way to go and buy some chickens.  So, you can't have this amount of money in your pocket, you should have more.  So they say they would shoot me in the stomach or in the - in the knee. 
I told them - no, I don't have anything else man.  Then the other one wanted to shoot me.  So, the other one says - no, don't shoot me - don't shoot me  because - because the securities at the factory will hear them.   So they didn't shoot me and they just took my battery and my car and I mean to say, my battery and the money I had and my generator and they pushed off.
And I went after that, I went to the police station,  I have reported that same story to the police station and I undersigned that also.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Rudi - where  did you live - which police station did you leave this statement?

MR LAZARO: I left this statement at Mitchell's Plain police station.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: As far as you can remember, that is the only statement you ever made about the incidents?

MR LAZARO: That is the only statement I made.  There was no other statements I made.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And when you were called by the police to identify the bodies of the seven, do you remember signing any documents at all?

MR LAZARO: No documents at all,  I haven't signed any other documents, because it was clear that I didn't know these people that was there.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And when did you realize that your signature was used in another context?

MR LAZARO: When the investigator Commissioners came to my house, say about a few weeks back.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: In other words was it Zenzile Khoisan who came to your house?

MR LAZARO: That's correct - that's correct.   So I only knew for the first time I had some more papers and more signatures.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And but I just need to understand how you were left out in the process, because  your signature was used elsewhere and you never knew anything about this?  Were you ever invited to attend the inquest in November 1986.

MR LAZARO: Ever since I were at Bishop Lavis police station, that's the last I saw about them, nothing else.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And nothing - you received nothing to invite you or to say you are going to give evidence at an inquest,  nothing about that at all?

MR LAZARO: And they can't even say they didn't know where I stayed, because these men  [indistinct]  me.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Rudi,  I am going to read you an extract from a typed  statement that is presumably signed by yourself.  It's got and has your name at the bottom and a signature and it is part of an exhibit ... end of Tape 2, Side A ...  at an inquest in November 1986.  And it is Exhibit  G.  It was presented as Exhibit G, just a part of it 
I am not making a mistake with their identification.  I am sure that these are the people who had robbed me.  The photograph  number 05/6 is the person who wanted to shoot me in my stomach.
[indistinct]  and that is this evidence, you understand the contents of what you are signing for and their is  your name at the bottom  R. Lazaro and a signature as well.
Now, what brought our Investigators attention to this is the fact that this signature looked a bit suspect, which  is why they came to you and we are grateful that you could come and throw some light into - into all of this and try and help us understand how the police  at the time created the evidence.
And I will just pass this on to you to see how your signature looked like at the inquest hearing.

MR LAZARO: Thank you.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Can I get someone to show it to him please.  I think it helps us understand the extend  to which investigation of this kind of cases were stretched.  That many times they didn't seem to be any limits to what can be said or done and this is assisting us.  Can you speak into the microphone please.

MR LAZARO: No,  this is not my signature - from even that, that's not my signature.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: We would like - can speak into the mike please so that we can hear for the record.

MR LAZARO: No this is not my signatures not at all.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you.

<UNKNOWN>: Are you sure?

MR LAZARO: I did - I did give the gentleman a sample.  The other one, Mr Killian, hey  I gave him a sample of my signature, without signing, I have him an old signature of mine also, a sample and he got it.   I think it might be there by those papers.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Yes, we have it somewhere.  Thank you so much, we really appreciate your coming,  thank you.

MR LAZARO: Even that short hand signature, down at the right side, that is not my signature.  I don't sign my name like that also.  I sign my name with a small Z - not the round, big one.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Rudi, thank  you very much.

MR LAZARO: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, any questions - Denzil Potgieter.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you chairperson.   Mr Lazaro,  I just want to understand the photographs that you were shown  were of people that were dead?

MR LAZARO: That is correct.

ADV POTGIETER: Where did they show you those photographs?

MR LAZARO: At Bishop Lavis police station.

ADV POTGIETER: And can you still remember who the - still remember who the police were that showed you these things?

MR LAZARRO: To tell you honestly.  I might remember them if I see them, but it will be very vague.

ADV POTGIETER: Did they - did they call you in after you reported the robbery on the 3rd of March or to Mitchell's plain?

MR LAZARO: They came to my place, say long after the robbery.   Not soon after the robbery, very long after the robbery.

ADV POTGIETER: And did you make or did you sign a statement on the day that you reported the robbery at the Mitchell's Plain police station?

MR LAZARO: I  signed it the same day, yes.

ADV POTGIETER: And that was the only time that you signed the statement

MR LAZARO: That is the only time I have signed that statement, that's correct.

ADV POTGIETER: The statement that you have signed on the day you have reported, was it hand written or was it typed.

MR LAZARO: It was handwritten.

ADV POTGIETER: And the statement that was shown to you now as Exhibit G at the inquest was a typed statement?

MR LAZARO: That is a typed statement,   I doesn't know about it.

ADV POTGIETER: Now I want to hand you an album of photographs.  And ask you to have a look at that.  Perhaps you can start specifically, because that is referred to in that statement of yours.  DR705/86 there is photograph 68 and 69 - those are the last two photographs in the album that I want you to have a look at first and see whether you identify the person on those two photographs.  And once you have done that, I want you to go to number 40.  Start with number 40 and then look through the rest and see if you identify any of those persons.

MR LAZARO: I will do that.

ADV POTGIETER: Just have a careful look at it.  You are now looking at number 68 and 69, is that correct?

MR LAZARO: Ja that is correct.

ADV POTGIETER: All right, do you identify the person on that?  Recognize the person on that - on those two photographs?

MR LAZARO: No - I don't identify them.

ADV POTGIETER: That was...[intervention]