Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-18

MR KNIGHT: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shabalala if we can move now to the time just before you left for the Transkei. Who was in the motor vehicle?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: The people in that car that were driving it was myself and Bra Mos and Shosha.

MR KNIGHT: And was the Transkei policeman there - Mr Dandala?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: He was not there.

MR KNIGHT: Was this when you left Elliot for the Transkei, he was not there? Surely he was with you?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: He was not in the Vlakplaas. We got him at the Barkley East.

MR KNIGHT: Yes. No I am talking about the time at Barkley East. It was Bra Mos, the other woman Shosha, yourself and Mr Dandala. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Correct.

MR KNIGHT: Now can you recall what rank Bra Mos had as a policeman?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Bra Mos at the time was a lieutenant.

MR KNIGHT: He was a lieutenant. Now was he a senior officer to you?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes he was security senior.

MR KNIGHT: So he would as your senior officer you would take orders from him?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes that is correct.

MR KNIGHT: And if he gave you an order you would obey it. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I listen from him.

MR KNIGHT: Now this incident relating to the death of Mr Ndondo is approximately 14 years ago. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes that is correct.

MR KNIGHT: Now in those 14 years have you ever made notes or written things down as to how things happened to refresh your memory? In the sense, contemporaneous notes. Notes made at the time of how things happened?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I did not write anything. I remember all of it.

MR KNIGHT: So you are relying in the statements that you have made, on your memory. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes very much.

MR KNIGHT: Do you find that your memory in certain instances that there are certain things that you possibly can't remember in great detail and other things that you can remember in detail?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: A little not much that's happened.

MR KNIGHT: So at the time that you filled in your amnesty application and at the time that you gave the statement to Inspector Jordaan you were relying on your memory of how you remember the events. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes that is correct.

MR KNIGHT: Now once you left Barkley East and entered into the Transkei with Captain Mos, yourself, Shosha and Inspector Dandala who was sitting where in the vehicle?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: When we left from Barkley East I was sitting at the front, Dandala to my back and Bra Mos in the front. I was sitting next to Bra Mos when we left Barkley East proceeding to pick up Shosha at Elliot.

MR KNIGHT: And what happened after this when you picked up Shosha?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: When I then moved from the from seat and I went to the back seat when we picked up Shosha. I went to the back seat yes. And Shosha took the place I had been occupying at the front.

MR KNIGHT: Where did you then proceed to?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: When we picked Shosha up we then proceeded to Nxala.

MR KNIGHT: Now did you go directly to Nxala or did you go somewhere else to receive information and then go to Nxala?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: When we left Elliot we went to Nxala. We had information already.

MR KNIGHT: So where did you proceed to?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: When we left there we went to Nxala if I am not mistaken.

MR KNIGHT: Yes and what happened at Nxala?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: When we got to Nxala we had already talked along the way that the person we wanted to get is this one. We then informed each other and Dandala. He was the one who was going to identify him easily by seeing him. I don't know when we got there whether it was a police station or what but it was where Dandala disembarked and went there and came back. When he came back he told us the person is around but they are not certain where he is.

MR KNIGHT: Do you recall that it was to your recollection did you know whether it was or wasn't a police station that he went into to enquire as to the whereabouts of the deceased?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It looked like a police station in the beginning when I recall.

MR KNIGHT: Was this at Nxala?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes this was at Nxala next to a residential area but a little bit off from the residential place.

MR KNIGHT: Is it correct that at that time you proceeded to the house that the deceased or in the direction of where the deceased was staying?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: When we left the police station we did not move a long distance going to that house where Dandala had seen a car. He then pointed the car to us. I remember.

MR KNIGHT: Now from who had you got a description of the car? Can you recall?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It is Dandala who came back with a description from that place seemingly looking like a police station.

MR KNIGHT: Now can you tell the Committee at this point who was sitting where in the vehicle? Captain Mos was driving. Where were the other people?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Shosha at the front seat. Dandala behind Mos and then a seat that you can close in order to allow others to pass. I was sitting on that seat that you can close with a space allowing me to go out.

MR KNIGHT: Would that have been to the left of Mr Dandala or am I correct in assuming that, that is directly behind Shosha, in the front seat? Or am I incorrect?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: There is an empty chair with a folding seat behind Shosha. I am behind that folding seat. In technical I am behind Shosha but there is that folding seat in front of me or between me and Shosha.

MR KNIGHT: I see. Now the vehicle (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: There is a seat that is immediately behind the driver's seat. Is that where Dandala was seated?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes he was exactly behind the driver.

CHAIRPERSON: And were you seated on the same seat but on the left side?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I had passed the seat where Dandala was sitting and went to the following one.

CHAIRPERSON: That would be the one from the back?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes. Correct the third chair from the front.

MR KNIGHT: Thank you Mr Chairman. The vehicle that you were travelling in is it correct that it had false registration numbers and tinted windows?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes that is true.

MR KNIGHT: Now what happened when you approached the house of the deceased? Can you tell the Committee what happened up until the time that the deceased got into the motor vehicle?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: As we saw the car from the distance we saw some one alighting from that car going into that house. When that person got into that house we were approaching. It is then that Dandala alighted and went into the (...indistinct) that house.

MR KNIGHT: Now (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What time of the day was this?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: That was early nine to ten, it was early in the morning. It was not late.

MR KNIGHT: Now when the deceased came out of his house or the house at which he was staying what happened directly after that?

CHAIRPERSON: Just allow him to tell us what happened because as I understand him Dandala left the kombi and went into the house. What happened thereafter?

MR KNIGHT: Thank you Mr Chairman.