Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-18

MR NEL: Mr Chairman thank you, Christo Nel on behalf of the late Colonel Taylor's wife.  I have difficulty or had difficulty in finding anything with reference to a deceased person in the Act, expect the mention made of a deceased person in Section 20 (vii) (c), but I, on behalf of Mr Taylor, do not intend calling any witnesses and I do intend dealing with whether he is entitled to receive amnesty, I intend dealing with that in written heads of argument and I will stand by that, that is also the application for Mr Taylor.

MR NOLTE: Mr Chairman, Nolte on record.  There's no witnesses we wish to call.

MR NGUBANE: Mr Chairman, we do not intend calling witnesses but I've been requested by the Bhila family that if possible, since we are finished with the evidence, if arrangements could be made tomorrow to see whether the applicants can be in a position to try and trace the spot where Mr Bhila was eliminated.  That is the request I was asked to make.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, there was an indication last week that attempts would be made amongst the applicants, that was my understanding that they would come back to the families.

MR VISSER: No, I don't think that's correct Mr Chairman.  What we said was we offer our assistance but we can't make arrangements, we don't know how to make arrangements.  We left that for the TRC to make.  If you have a few helicopters and so on ready we'll hop in tomorrow morning and go and have a look see.

ADV PRIOR: I'll make those arrangements then with the investigating unit of the Committee and the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Would ask, Mr Visser, is if you speak to your clients, but my recollection is they were all very vague about where they went.  They went down the road and turned off a tar road and find which of them is best able to suggest the area to go to.

MR VISSER: Yes Mr Chairman, we've gone through that exercise, you will recall we only appeared for two people, Rosslee and Wasserman.  Now Rosslee was a stranger in the area and really it's a waste of time, in my respectful submission, to try to depend on his recollection.  But Wasserman, Mr Chairman, says that he is quite happy to go and look again, he's done so before with the investigation unit and they couldn't find anything, but he says he'll go again.  He hasn't got much hope but he can tell you what area it is, there's no question about that.

CHAIRPERSON: He would probably be the best one because if he has been with the investigative unit he can tell them where, they will both know where not to go again, they will know what areas they have been to and haven't found anything.

MR VISSER: So in that sense time and effort could be spared, yes Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I don't want to get involved in a debate, but my information that Mr Wasserman has not been with the investigating unit in respect of the Bhila matter.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, I stand corrected, yes.  But certainly we've got no problem with that Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, from the evidence leaders side, I indicated earlier that there may be witnesses, that situation has been ironed out.  I don't intend call anybody further in this matter, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr Wasserman is here at the moment, you can make arrangements with him.  I'm not involved in this, I won't be going there.  Speaking for myself, it seems it might be more desirable for a small group to go, to try to find the place and then to notify Mr Ngubane once the place has been found so the relatives can go there rather than have a whole lot of people following one another and getting lost and what have you.  So you can discuss it with one another and make a plan about it.
	Mr Visser raised the question of when we should adjourn or what we should do.  We are awaiting information, I'm not quite sure who from, I think it's your instructing attorney, as to what has happened, if anything.  Once we have received that information, if he could notify us, we will notify all the other parties as to whether the matter will proceed to a further hearing or whether at that stage we can give a decision and then get written argument.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I may inform the Committee that I've received an indication, it's no more than that, that there might be something to report by tomorrow morning, from Mr Botha, but it's no more than just an indication that there's a possibility.  I'm not certain with the issue of Mr Bhila being outstanding and the issue of the informers being outstanding, whether it might not be perhaps recommendable that we should perhaps just convene tomorrow morning early?

CHAIRPERSON: I think it might be a very good idea and perhaps the Bhila question could be done today?

MR VISSER: That's what we have in mind Mr Chairman, it's to do it this afternoon.  We've go a lot of time, we've got the rest of the day.  We go and we do it today and we'll report tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm getting confirmation from the person who is actually going to do it, Mr Visser, he appears to agree, he's nodding his head.  We'll adjourn then till tomorrow morning and hope that by that time we have more concrete information both on the Bhila matter and on the information from Mr Botha as to what is happening in that sphere.

MR VISSER: Yes Mr Chairman, that seems to be imminently the practical way.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.  Before we do that though, there is something I wish to say now that we have finished the hearing and which I will probably forget to say tomorrow, that I am obliged to those who have prepared the bundles, they have put as much information before us as possible and I would also like my thanks to be communicated to the gentlemen who performed the post-mortems and put up the post-mortem reports.  They are certainly more detailed than those I have had to deal with in most criminal cases and they have taken a lot of trouble over it and I think they should be thanked for what they have done.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, just before you arise, perhaps just for the record, my learned friend Mr Prior discussed the contents of the post-mortem reports and the contents of some of the bundles about which you've heard no evidence with me and he has enquired from us whether we dispute any of the facts and the answer to that Mr Chairman, and it can be recorded as such, of course we don't dispute any of that.

CHAIRPERSON: 9 o'clock tomorrow morning then.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS