Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-22

CHAIRPERSON: Were you aware of any project at all, or any monitoring of Dr Webster?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, not at all.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Barnard's handler in the CCB, Lafras Luitingh, gave evidence in his trial that Mr Barnard told him the day after Webster was assassinated what had happened.  Now you'll agree with me, as his handler, it would be his responsibility to report this to Joe Verster.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, Chairperson.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And one would have expected that on receipt of that information, that this would be something of great importance to the CCB if operatives connected to the CCB without Verster's direct orders, had carried out an assassination.  Verster would be very concerned about that, you agree with me?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And one would have expected at the very least that this would be something that would be discussed with the Regional Manager, Region 6?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yet we have this very strange state of affairs where Mr Luitingh who's in the CCB, admits that he knows who carried out the assassination on the day after the assassination, but everybody else in the CCB claims they know nothing about it.

MR WESSELS: With respect, Mr Chairman, may I come in here?  Mr Kahanovitz is not giving the matter the perspective that it requires and the evidence that was led during the Webster Inquest.  During the Webster Inquest the evidence was given by Mr Verster that he received information or he was told by Lafras Luitingh that Barnard had told him that he had killed Webster.  He further gave evidence that he reported that to Brig Engelbrecht from the police and Gen Badenhorst of Military Intelligence at the time of the inquiry into the CCB, that he had made inquiries about that.  He was not aware of CCB operatives being involved, he was only told about Barnard.  Barnard was not a CCB operative, he had been fired from the CCB and he was not aware, nobody mentioned Calla Botha's name at that time.  The Judge at that time for whatever reason he decided, decided not to accept the evidence of Mr Verster.  That evidence of Mr Verster has now subsequently been accepted by Judge Els in finding Barnard guilty of that, but that is precisely the evidence that Verster gave in 1992 already about what he had done about that whole matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps Mr Kahanovitz if - sorry.

MR WESSELS: And I submit that the proposition by Mr Kahanovitz to this witness, is not a true reflection of the facts surrounding that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wessels.  Mr Kahanovitz, perhaps you can restrict your proposition to the witness, but ...

MR KAHANOVITZ: The simple proposition is the following.  My Learned Friend is correct in pointing out that Mr Verster also admits that he was told.

CHAIRPERSON: The proposition initially was that everyone else didn't, that's why I say if you could restrict it to perhaps this witness's situation.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes.  No, he's correct.  How is it conceivable that if Mr Verster knew and Mr Luitingh knew, that you claim that you knew nothing about who had assassinated David Webster?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Alright.  Chairperson, I do not know Lafras Luitingh.  Lafras Luitingh  was not known to me.  In fact I don't even know what he looks like today and he was not part of Region 6 and for that reason the methods of the - I didn't get the information although it had been conveyed to me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You were the people who were primarily responsible for targeting people like David Webster.  Surely you, as the Manager of Region 6, when you read the newspaper and seen that he'd been assassinated, you'd be terribly interested to know who had done it, if it wasn't Region 6?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, we were interested and Mr Verster came to see us and asked if we could help him, assist him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, Mr Verster gave evidence, I think it was at the Webster Inquest, he said within days of the event, he made inquiries himself within the CCB to try and establish what information could come to the fore about who had carried out the assassination.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: It's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: In other words you're saying he came to speak to you?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: At the time he came to speak to you, Lafras Luitingh had already told him that he'd received information that it was Barnard who had done it.  Why would Verster not relay this information to you?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't know Chairperson, but Lafras Luitingh and his group of people and Verster and the other regions all functioned on their own, independently, it was on a need-to-know basis and he wouldn't discuss it with me.

CHAIRPERSON: Once Brig - I've forgotten his name, Mr Wessels mentioned him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Engelbrecht.

CHAIRPERSON: Brig Engelbrecht was involved, now he's doing the big investigation and he comes to the offices of the CCB to make inquiries about the death or the murder of Dr Webster, wouldn't that have been like throwing a rock into a beehive?  Wouldn't it have caused great consternation amongst the members of the CCB, urgent meetings, let's get together, talk about it, what's the story, who knows what?

MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman, the evidence previously given was that it didn't quite happen like that, there was an inquiry, a secret inquiry, if I may call it that, where Brig Engelbrecht was assisted by Gen Badenhorst into the activities of the CCB, that was subsequent ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Was that after his cessation of work?

MR WESSELS: Ja, that was in 1990 already.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I'll withdraw that then.

MR WESSELS: Ja, these events happened before.  The evidence given earlier was that - I think Slang van Zyl gave the evidence that Verster made inquiries from Region 6 and asked him, he gave the evidence here, if anyone knew what had transpired there and whether anyone of Region 6 was involved in that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Thank you.  Mr Burger, Mr Verster was well aware that Mr Barnard and Mr Botha were good friends, correct?  And in fact they were the two people who were in the car together in relation to the Roland White incident which had occurred earlier that year?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I never knew it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You didn't know about the Roland White incident?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, no, Roland White, sorry, ja.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You knew about?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: In other words you knew about the relationship between Mr Barnard and Mr Botha and Mr Verster knew about the relationship between Mr Barnard and Mr Botha.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So someone goes to tell Mr Verster that Barnard has shot Webster.  Mr Verster now wishes to make inquiries in the CCB as to whether anyone in the CCB is involved.  I would have thought his first port of call would be Calla Botha.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: It may be the case.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And I would have very much thought that you would be involved in that process because these were your men.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, he was under my command and Verster did come to ask me that and he asked:  "Who's involved in this thing?"  I gave him the assurance we were not involved, there would be no authorisation, that procedures had not been followed, in fact until today nobody's told me or admitted to me that Ferdi Barnard was responsible for that.  The Court procedure, I didn't follow those on a day to day basis, the Court procedures against Mr Barnard, so that's all I can say.

MR LAX: Can I just ask something?  Did you actually ask your men?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I did.

MR LAX: So you went to Botha and you said:  "Were you involved?"

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I did.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And what did he say?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: He wasn't.