Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-12

MR LOWIES: ...(indistinct) got instruction, I have to test him on the probabilities, Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Whilst you have all the right to test him, but you cannot do that by means of efficient expedition.

MR LOWIES: I hear what you say, I'll rephrase the question.

CHAIRPERSON: There's got to be limits on some cross-examination.

MR LOWIES: I will rephrase it.  I want to put it to you that it was not possible for you to get onto the roof of the garage, how did you manage to do so?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The place where my house stands belongs to me, I know the place.  I often times get on top of the roof.  It's a flat roof you see.

MR LOWIES: I was there, that's why I'm asking you. ...(intervention)

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: You were there, but you did not see the area where I managed to get onto the roof through ...(intervention)

MR LOWIES: How did you get on top of the ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, may the answer please be repeated?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am saying at the place where I have built my second kitchen, not the garage in front, that is a new garage, I just built it recently.  The first garage had a chicken pen and I climbed onto the roof through the chicken pen behind, or at the back.

MR LOWIES: But as I understand you, you were responsible for the first-aid in the street, why didn't you rather apply first-aid to the people who were injured?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am the one who assisted people with first-aid at Afrox as well as Iscor.  I was assisting people with first-aid.  I don't know what you want me to say now.

MR LOWIES: I want to put it to you that as a result of the fact that you were in charge of first-aid, your first priority would rather have been to assist people attacked, than getting onto the roof, which you didn't do.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: You see you are saying that if you get injured now, be it in a car accident, black or white, I will help you now.  I help all people, even whites.

CHAIRPERSON: But surely Mr Lowies, I would have thought that as a matter of ...(indistinct) - I see you're putting what you believe ought to be logic, but I would have thought that he would first have to satisfy himself that it was safe to go out first.

MR LOWIES: But at that stage according to him, it was so, the people had already left, he saw it.

CHAIRPERSON: But anyway he has answered your question.  Anyway go ahead.

MR LOWIES: Now did you at any stage apply first-aid to anybody, render first-aid to anybody?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I started with my child who was cut by glass.  I did not want to take the child to hospital.  I did not want to take the child to hospital, and thereafter I went to help the Buwa's and I had run out of bandages or bondages at the time, but they did try to stop the flow of blood and we tried to look for an ambulance but we could not.
	They wanted me to transport the child to hospital in my kombi and my wife said: "You cannot go under these conditions".  As were there outside an ambulance came.  That is when we loaded them into the ambulance, but then came the Koyoco that fetched the corpses from the ...(indistinct), a black person as well as a white person.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Lowies?

MR LOWIES: Why did you get onto the roof of the garage?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, where are you going to take this, what's the relevance of that question?

MR LOWIES: Chair, it's disputed that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You've just been asking him whether he rendered any first-aid, he answered that question, do you're wanting to know now why he got into the roof.  Do you have any further questions to ask?  If you don't have further questions, say so.  What's the relevance of asking him whether he got onto the roof?

MR LOWIES: Chair, I have to explore this because I want to put to the witness that he did not get onto the roof and he did so because of a specific reason.
	What is the reason, why did you get onto the roof?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I was trying to look for the police that you are talking about and trying to look where these people who were killing us have gone to.

MR LOWIES: But you could see that from the street, not so?  You could see that from outside your house, or not?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am the one who was doing all that, me.  I was not supposed to be told by whoever, where to stand or to stand in the street.

MR LOWIES: Sir, that is the point.  There was no reason for you to get onto the roof, you could see, on your version that you gave to my colleague, Mr Strydom, perfectly from where you were standing.  Is that true or not?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I was able to see yes, but I decided to get on top of the roof to see.  I made that decision, not somebody else made that decision for me.

MR LOWIES: But that is exactly the point.  If you could see from the streets, why go through all the trouble to go onto the roof?

CHAIRPERSON: He has answered you.  He decided on his own that he must go on top of the roof.

MR LOWIES: I have no further questions, Chair, I can't take it further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOWIES

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Baloyi, in view of the lateness of the hour, you will have to come back tomorrow morning so that you may be cross-examined further.  Do you understand that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I understand.  Are they not through with questions?

CHAIRPERSON: There are still a number of people who have to ask you questions.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It's okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you please made sure that you are here by 9 o'clock?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That's okay.

CHAIRPERSON: We will rise until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS