Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

MR PAPIER: And you were also not in a position to give the inquest proceedings this explanation, is that not so?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am not quite what this insinuation is.

MR PAPIER: It is a question, can you answer it or not?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: The question is whether I could or couldn't give an explanation to the inquest court.  I repeat to the best of my ability, I explained the circumstances to the inquest court, to the best of my abilities and I am doing so here again.

MR PAPIER: You were sitting on Ashley Kriel's back, a shot went off.  You felt his body relax?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, that is correct.

MR PAPIER: You were convinced that he was dead, is that correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I don't know whether it was immediately, but I believed that he was wounded.  After a while I was able to determine that according to my opinion, he was dead.

MR PAPIER: When the shot rang out, were you still sitting on the deceased's back?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.

MR PAPIER: Did you pull the trigger or did you not pull the trigger?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: The firearm was in my hand and I am assuming for the Committee and for the family that my finger must have been on the trigger and if that is the case, the shot went off whilst the firearm was in my hand and for that firing of the firearm I must take sole responsibility.

MR PAPIER: Must I repeat the question, did you pull the trigger or did you not pull the trigger?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I don't know whether I pulled the trigger.  If I could perhaps rephrase it, not consciously pulled the trigger.

MR PAPIER: Well, you are still sitting on the deceased's back.  What happened after the shot had gone off?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: The deceased relaxed and once again I asked Abels ...

MR PAPIER: No, before we come to asking Abels, the deceased relaxed.  Did he fall on the ground, you are still sitting on his back, did you also fall to the ground, on top of him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: To the best I can remember, I also fell on the ground.

MR PAPIER: What did you feel, how did his body feel, was it completely relaxed, did it go limp?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It relaxed, yes.

MR PAPIER: Did you foresaw the possibility that he was dead?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not immediately, because I asked Abels to handcuff the person.

MR PAPIER: That is precisely what it boils down to Captain.  The weapon went off, you are sitting on his back, his body went limp, he fell to the ground.  Why would you now instruct Abels to handcuff him?  Does it make any sense?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, it made sense at that stage.  A few minutes, a half minute before that, I knocked him against his forehead, his body went limp, he fell to the ground and we tried to handcuff him.

MR PAPIER: Was that not something which he tried, you shot him in his back and he fell to the ground, he was laying there and you told Abels go ahead, handcuff him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: If you want to put it in that way.

MR PAPIER: Handcuff him.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, we handcuffed him.

MR PAPIER: Was there any reason to handcuff him at that stage, he was laying there?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: But half a minute before that he was also laying there when we tried to handcuff him.  There I could not decide whether he was dead when he was laying there, all limp, we decided to handcuff him.  I couldn't determine whether he was dead or not.

MR PAPIER: Could you only just be standing there, did you kick him, did you knock him, did you keep him down?  There was no movement or was there?

CHAIRPERSON: Did everything happen so quickly?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Everything happened so quickly, Your Honour.  To handcuff him would have meant less violence.  If I understand the person asking the question correctly, his body went limp.  Why did you want to handcuff him, and he asked why didn't you kick him?

MR PAPIER: Your evidence is that you were using the minimum violence after having used the maximum violence?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I used the minimum violence according to the situation.

MR PAPIER: You were convinced that he was dead after Abels handcuffed both his hands, isn't that true?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, that is right.  I am not in a position to give an expert opinion, but as a layman I was sure that he was dead.  He never moved after that again.

MR PAPIER: Why Captain did you give the instruction that they should remove the one handcuff?  That happened, not so?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, that is correct, it happened like that.  That is correct.  It was only for documenting this incident.

MR PAPIER: Which documentation are you referring to?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: The police or the other Units came to the scene.  A video recording was made, photographs were taken, the whole scene was put on film for future court procedures.

MR PAPIER: So why did you not take off the handcuffs completely and you just removed one handcuff?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: You would see that it was the left hand handcuff we removed.  Directly after this incident, after he was knocked down and the first handcuff was on his hand, then the struggle took place.
	If that was wrong, I apologise, it must have been an error of judgement.

MR PAPIER: It makes no sense to the family.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Your Honour, I can't react to that whether it makes sense or not, I only can give evidence to what had happened.

MR PAPIER: Was any attempt made from your side to get medical assistance?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Medical assistance for?

MR PAPIER: Surely not for yourself Captain, for the deceased?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I think an ambulance was called, that was the normal procedure.

MR PAPIER: But you did not arrange that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It was possible that I could have.  During a radio call, where people were informed that a shooting had taken place, an ambulance was called, that was standard procedure.

MR PAPIER: Captain, to which police Unit did you belong at that stage?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I was a member of the Security Police.

MR PAPIER: Were you at that stage aware of the Bonteheuwel military wing of the ANC?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, I knew about that.

MR PAPIER: Were you anyhow part of a special investigation branch under the command of Captain van Braekel?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, never ever.

MR PAPIER: Never?  According to my information you were part of the Unit and you were indeed number 12 on this list.  Do you deny that?

UNKNOWN: There should be substantiated which document  you are referring to.  I want to object on behalf of my client.  I want to see this documentation.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the relevance of all this Mr Papier?

MR PAPIER: Honourable Chair, the defence is just trying to in fact end off by placing some background before the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but this background doesn't relate to this incident, it is something else, isn't it?

MR PAPIER: As the Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we must try and avoid all that.

MR PAPIER: As the Committee pleases.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: With respect Mr Chairman, if it will help the Commission in any way, I have never worked under the directorship of Lieutenant or Superintendent Van Braekel.

CHAIRPERSON: Van what?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Van Braekel.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you finished Mr Papier?

MR PAPIER: Just one last question, if you would permit me Honourable Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PAPIER: I just want to determine Captain, your Advocate wrote a letter in answer to a question and he says and I quote, he addressed a letter to the Commission and this is regarding your application ..."he applies for application for the death of this person, but he had a justifiable grounds, namely lack of unlawfulness or mens rea."
	The instruction was only to determine whether the named person, whether he was hiding in this specific environment, is that correct?