Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody, we'll be proceeding with the hearing with the evidence of Mr Hardien.  Ms Coleridge?

MS COLERIDGE: Thank you, Chairperson.  I'd just like to inform that Committee that we have consulted with the Attorney-General in the Western Cape, that is Mr Frank Khan, and Chairperson, he has given us the go-ahead to proceed with this matter.  We have also confirmed this with the National Office of Prosecutions and received confirmation Chairperson, that we can proceed with Mr Isgak Hardien's testimony.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Coleridge, will Mr Hardien not need a translation, the benefit of translation?

MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, he will testify in Afrikaans and he'll require translation.

MR RHEEDE: I beg your pardon, Chairperson, while we're waiting for the interpreting service, can I just place on record concerning the finding of the evidence that Mr Hardien will give, I would just like to object to certain questions that are going to be put to him if it may lead to incriminating my client.  We would just like to reserve the right to then object to these questions or then to refuse to answer these questions.  I'd like to place it on record at this stage and let's see how the proceedings continue.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you've obviously got the right to do that, Mr Rheede.  Thank you.

ISGAK HARDIEN: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Coleridge?  Sorry.
	What are your full names?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Isgak Hardien.

MR LAX: Just for the record, that's I-s-g-a-k.  Is that the correct spelling?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, Mr Isgak Hardien's statements appear at bundle B, from page 145 to 159, that's the statement he had made in his Section 29 whilst in detention Chairperson, and then also at bundle B, from page 160 to 190, you will note there's an interview with the TRC Investigative Unit, where Mr Hardien answered questions in relation to his activities, Chairperson, particularly in relation to the Athlone Early Learning Centre.
	Mr Hardien, can you tell the Committee how did you come into contact with Mr Slang van Zyl?

MS COLERIDGE: I made contact with Mr van Zyl through Peaches.

MS COLERIDGE: And then?

ISGAK HARDIEN: He contacted me, we met each other.

MS COLERIDGE: And what transpired at that meeting with Mr van Zyl?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I asked him why he had my name and address and he said I mustn't worry, it is not important.  We had a discussion and we met each again.

CHAIRPERSON: When was it, Mr Hardien?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall, I do not know.

MR LAX: Just to place it in context if we may.  How old are you?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I am 41.

MR LAX: And what were you doing at the time, were you employed, were you unemployed or were you studying?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I worked.

MR LAX: Yes.  What did you work as?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Athlone Swimming Baths.

MR LAX: Yes, as what?

ISGAK HARDIEN: How can I put it, I was the supervisor, I was in charge of all the people who worked there.

MR WILLIAMS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, we can't hear what Mr Hardien is saying, if he can just raise his voice maybe a bit.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think - but also Mr Williams, perhaps if you get one of these devices you can put it onto Afrikaans, it just has the effect of amplifying it a bit.

MR LAX: That's why some of us wear it, we're not necessarily listening to the translation at all, it just that it's often difficult to hear in the hall.
	Then the last thing, just in terms of background, what is your level of education?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I did not go school.

MR LAX: You didn't go to school?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, not at all.

MR LAX: Thank you.  Please continue.

MS COLERIDGE: Thank you.
	Now you've informed us that you had met Mr Slang van Zyl, now regarding the second time you had met him, what did he inform you as to, what does he need or require from you, how were you going to help him?  Can you explain that to us?

ISGAK HARDIEN: He told me that I know Kewtown, I knew everything that was going on there, I can assist him to prevent the ANC from coming in.

MS COLERIDGE: And then what did he inform you after that?  Was he going to contact you again, or were you going to contact him?  What did he inform you as to how you're going to build relations between the two of you?

ISGAK HARDIEN: He told me that he'd contact me again and that I can contact him as well.

MS COLERIDGE: And then, did you contact him?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: And what transpired there?

ISGAK HARDIEN: We just met as we did before, we had a discussion, I think there were a lot of activities going on, I think it was in that time, yes, and who the people were who were involved, the arsonists or the arson, etcetera.

MS COLERIDGE: Right.  Did Mr van Zyl offer you any money in terms of getting you to contact him and so forth?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No.

MS COLERIDGE: Just in your one statement you had stated that you were paid about R400 or R500, just in terms of contacting Mr van Zyl telephonically and so forth, can you remember that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I can remember it because it was money that I received from him.

MS COLERIDGE: And can you inform us, what was your first operation that Mr Slang van Zyl required you to do for him?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I had to give him information about who the people were.

MS COLERIDGE: Is that the people regarding the Athlone Kewtown Youth Movement?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Exactly.

MS COLERIDGE: How did you gather that information regarding the Kewtown Youth Movement?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I know them all, I know what they do.

MS COLERIDGE: Good.  What report-back did you give to Mr van Zyl regarding the Kewtown Youth Movement?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I told him that they were involved in the arson in Belgravia Road.

MS COLERIDGE: And how did you know that information?

ISGAK HARDIEN: It is very simple, I operate with them, I move around in the area.

MS COLERIDGE: Now your first operation you were involved in the South West African ... just before the elections, can you explain to us what Mr van Zyl had required you to do there?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I would just like to ask a question.  He asked me if I wanted to go on holiday or if I've been on holiday.   I said no.

MS COLERIDGE: And then how was it that you got to go to South West Africa?

ISGAK HARDIEN: He told me then that I can go to South West Africa.

MS COLERIDGE: To do what, Mr Hardien?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I can spend a few days there because people from the Cape will come up for meetings or business or whatever happened there and I then went.

MS COLERIDGE: Were you required to take down people's registration numbers, from buses or cars or so forth?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: And did you do this?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MS COLERIDGE: How many times did you go to South West Africa?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Once.

MR LAX: Sorry, what kind of people were these that you were supposed to go and look at registration numbers of, from the Cape?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I just had to observe registration numbers.

MR LAX: Yes, well were they from any particular political organisation or ... what was the whole object, why were you going to look at registration numbers?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I assume it was political people, because there was an election, there was a meeting or an election or whatever.

MR LAX: So you didn't really know who these people were or what they were doing, you didn't even know why you had to take these registration numbers?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: But if you go to Windhoek and sit on the pavement in the main road, thousands of vehicles are going to pass you, you're just going to write down registration numbers of every vehicle in Windhoek?  What's the point of that?