Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-01-31

CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, we want to start the proceedings.  For the record, it is Monday the 31st of January 2000.  This is hearing of the Amnesty Committee, held at Umtata.  The Panel consists of myself, my name is Denzil Potgieter.  With me is Judge Miller and Mr Sibanyoni.  We would be commencing with the amnesty applications of SM Ntisane and others.  We are told that although we have six applicants on the roll in respect of this particular matter, not all of them are present at this stage.  So we have four of those applicants whose matters we would be proceeding with at this stage.
	Can I just indicate also that we have been delayed in starting the proceedings today because of difficulties that one of the Panel Members has experienced in transport from Johannesburg to Umtata.  So we apologise for any convenience that has resulted from that delay.  I'm going to ask the legal representatives to put themselves on record in respect of the applicants first.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I'm Kobus Malan from the attorney's firm, Kobus Malan Attorney in Northam.  I'm representing Mr  Gumengu and Mr Nombanga.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry Mr Malan, you say Mr Gumengu and Mr Nombanga, that's applicants numbers 4 and 6.

MR MALAN: I don't have it here in front of me, but I presume it's the right numbers.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it's Gumengu you say and Nombanga.

MR MALAN: Yes, on the numbering that we have on the bundle that would be applicants 4 and 6, as my colleague has indicated.  Ms Dambuza.

MS DAMBUZA: My name is Nambitha Dambuza, I'm representing applicants number 1, 2, 3 and 5, from Attorneys Dambuza and Associates in Butterworth.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Ms Dambuza you informed us that two of the applicants are unfortunately not present today, which two of the applicants are not here?

MS DAMBUZA: Yes Sir, it is so.  The applicants that are here are applicants number 1 and applicant number 5.  2 and 3 are the ones that are not here today.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Ms Dambuza.  Mr Nodada?

MR NODADA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I represent the victims of the incident as well as the next-of-kin of the deceased.  My names are Kwezi Nodada of Kwezi Nodada ...(indistinct) and Co.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Nodada.  Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.  My name is Zuko Mapoma, I'm the Evidence Leader for the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: We have been advised by the legal representatives that they are happy for us to proceed with the applications of those of the applicants that we have on the roll here, who are present at this stage and that steps have been taken to contact the other two applicants who are not present and we will receive a report on that as soon as the employee of the Commission who has attended to that particular matter, returns to the venue here.  So under those circumstances I assume Ms Dambuza, would you commence with your applicants, number 1 or which one are we commencing with?

MS DAMBUZA: Mr Malan will be commencing I think.

CHAIRPERSON: Which applicant are you starting off with, Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: Mr Gumengu, if you please Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gumengu?

MR MALAN: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it Mr Gumengu seated next to you?

MR MALAN: Positive.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gumengu, do you hear the interpretation on your headset?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give your full names for the record.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.  Mr Malan.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Gumengu, you applied for amnesty to this Amnesty Committee, and you did so in terms of Section 18 and Section 20 in particular, of Act 34/95, is that correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Alright.  You have drafted an affidavit and parts of it was in Afrikaans and I'll translate as far as I go in recording the evidence as you've stated in your affidavit.  You start off with your involvement of the Craig Duli coup, was it during 1989 that you were informed by Capt Mfazwe that Gen Bantu Holomisa had enrolled with the ANC, is that correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And was this a turnabout of his initial political intentions?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I think it is like that.

MR MALAN: Capt Mfazwe indicated to you that this tantamount to a split in the military junta that ruled Transkei at that time, do you agree with that?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes.

MR MALAN: And that there were certain elements in that military council that intended to move Gen Holomisa by means of a coup d'etat.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: A certain Mr Craig Duli was identified to you as the person who had the ability to execute a coup and you received instructions from Capt Mfazwe to infiltrate his group to monitor any developments in that regard, is that correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: You then approached Mr Duli and made an appointment with him in East London, and you already knew Mr Duli since 1987, is that correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MALAN: What did Mr Duli indicate to you when you met in East London?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: He told me that there was no understanding or there was conflict amongst themselves and about the decision that were taken concerning the people and he tried to rectify those conflicts, but he was taken as an enemy.

MR MALAN: Did he indicate that he would like to remove Mr Holomisa by means of a coup d'etat?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes.

MR MALAN: In late November the same year you received another telephone call from Mr Duli and he requested you to meet him once again in East London, is that correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: He informed you that the coup will be taking place in the near future, and what did you do with that information?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: As I was employed by the Transkeian Police, I took that information and I gave it to the people, the people that were leading the police at that time in the Transkei.

MR MALAN: Were you there in your official capacity?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And did you receive ...(intervention)

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry Mr Malan - Mr Gumengu, at that time you say you worked for the police, which branch of the police did you work for?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: The Security Police.

JUDGE MILLER: And when Mr Duli told you about his intentions to carry out a coup d'etat, you say you went back and gave that information to the police.  Where you in favour of the coup d'etat or were you acting as a spy against Mr Duli at the time?  I'm not quite sure what you're saying.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: As I was sent by the government to infiltrate, I was told to bring back the information to the police and there were reasons that Mr Duli would think that I was on his side.

JUDGE MILLER: So by relaying this information back to the police you weren't acting in Mr Duli's interests?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: No, I was not acting in  his interests.

JUDGE MILLER: Thank you.

MR MALAN: Thank you.
	You gave the necessary information to two police officers in the Transkeian police service, in accordance with your initial instructions, can you name the two officers?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, I can name them.  What happened is after Capt Mfazwe died there was a problem concerning whom I could give the information to, I then contacted two people that I could give this information.  I was working under the Transkeian Police, so I gave information to Mr Mzinyathi and Mr Ngxabane.

MR MALAN: On the 21st of November ...(intervention)

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, I wonder if you could just spell those names please.  Mr Mzinyathi you say.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: M-z-i-n-y-a-t-h-i.  The second one is Ngxabane, N-g-x-a-b-a-n-e.

MR SIBANYONI: What was the cause of Mr Mfazwe's death?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It was a car accident.