Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-14

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: I can explain.  Firstly, I did not know Mr Mashamahite.  I do not know his family, and my killing him or shooting him was not meant to hurt his family, but I shot him as a member of the police.  If for instance, I was targeting Mr Mashamahite specifically I would have not have had to do that reconnaissance, I would have gone to his home directly.  But because I did not target Mr Mashamahite specifically, I had targeted any member of the SAP.  It was necessary to do that reconnaissance so that I could actually target a member of the system.  Another thing is that, as I repeat, I did not target Mr Mashamahite specifically.
	I had targeted policeman around the Katlehong area and Mr Mashamahite was unfortunate because when he came out of the police station he was indeed in uniform and that is how he came to be killed.

MR MAPOMA: Now, where was Gift and Eugene Madikane at the time you shot at Basie Hladi?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: On that day I was with Gift when I went to shoot Basie Hladi.   Eugene was not around.

MR MAPOMA: Now, at the time you were arrested by these policemen ...[inaudible]

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: On that day I was with Gift, but when the police approached he was lucky to escape.  But because I could not escape I decided to fight and that is how I came to be arrested.

MR MAPOMA: Now, exactly the time you were arrested, where were you?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: ...[no English translation]

MR MAPOMA: Yes.

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: ...[no English translation]

MR MAPOMA: Yes.

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: I was at Tokoza.  There is a shopping centre there.

MR MAPOMA: And what were you doing there?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Sorry?

MR MAPOMA: What were you doing there?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: We were just walking.  We were actually going to visit other members.

MR MAPOMA: Do you confirm that at the trial there was evidence to the effect that you were caught while playing dices there?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: At the trial yes, that emerged, but as a soldier I would never divulge the truth to the enemy.  That is why I said I had been playing dice at the trial.

MR MAPOMA: So, are you saying in actual fact you were not playing dice at the time you were caught by these policemen?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: No, I was not playing dice.  The police shot me while I was in somebody's yard.

MR MAPOMA: Now finally, what is your feeling about having killed Mr Mashamahite?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: With regards to killing Mashamahite.  I would like firstly to explain to the family.  I did not kill Mr Mashamahite just because I had targeted his family.  It was not so.  Mr Mashamahite died because he was a policeman.
	What I would also like to explain is that we as PAC members were not born to kill.  We are the peace loving people.  In 1959 we are the people who had been treating peace, such that there was a march on the 21st of March 1960.  As we were fighting the then regime in a peaceful manner.  
	The reactionary forces who were the police shot and killed unarmed Africans who did not have even an axe.  Therefore we decided that we will no longer talk peace.  This led to the PAC trying by any means to establish military wings because there was no other way.  There was no way we could be talking about peace when reactionary forces were killing our members.  Therefore my killing of Mashamahite was not meant at hurting his family.  I killed him with the intent of killing a member of the system.  It was my intention to kill him as a policeman.  He was the right target.  With regards to his death, it shows that I was actually fighting the Government of the day.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.  No further question, Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

ADV SIGODI: Mr Buthelezi, as a trained soldier, what is an informer?  What is your understanding of an informer?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: As far as I know I can explain this word in various ways.  An informer is someone who collaborated with the apartheid Government at the time.  Such person would be against liberation forces.  That person will support harsh the activities of those liberation forces and the informer will be a person prolonging the liberation of Azania.

ADV SIGODI: Did you know Basie Hladi before you saw him coming to your home with the police?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: No.

ADV SIGODI: What efforts did you take to find out that he was an informer?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Firstly, Basie Hladi was spotted by Eugene coming to his home in the company of a policeman, but at the time he did not know his name.  And then one of our members, Vusi, saw Basie Hladi and when the police came looking for me I hid at a neighbour's house and I saw Basie Hladi in the company of the police.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know why he was looking for you?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: They entered my home and they said that they were looking for me in connection with the death of the policeman.

ADV SIGODI: You see, I have a problem with your definition of an informer or the way you explained that you thought that Basie Hladi was an informer, because it is a given fact that then people who were seen to be informers were either people who going with the security police informing on the PAC.  Did you have any information that he had informed on the PAC and was against the liberation force as such, or did you assume that he was an informer simply because he came with the police to look for you in connection with the murder of the policeman?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: I did not think that he was an informer just because he had come to my home with the police.  Firstly, we saw him when he came looking for us in the company of the police, not that he was a policeman.  He was not a policeman himself, but he was in the company of the police.
	But if he had come to my house on his own, alone, I would have not labelled him an informer, but because he was in the company of the police and they were looking for me in connection with this murder, it implied or it showed me that he was an informer.

ADV SIGODI: All right.  When you killed this Mr Mashamahite, what did you do to show that the killing of this policeman was a political act, or what did you do?  Did the PAC take any responsibility for it to show that it was a political act, or did you just kill him and run away and leave it to the people to think that it could well have been an ordinary murder?  What did you do to show that it was a political killing?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: After killing Mr Mashamahite, I reported the incident to my highest commanders.  I told them that I had killed a policeman and the gun that we removed from him, we had just opened a unit in Katlehong, therefore we needed weapons and the way to obtain such weapons would be to kill and disarm policemen, and I would inform the chief director of national operations of how my unit was operating, and they will decide how they handle the matter.

ADV SIGODI: And to whom did you report this?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Lihlapa was Lihle Mpampahlele.

ADV SIGODI: And did the PAC take any responsibility?  Did they make it publicly known that the killing of Mr Mashamahite was a political act or did it not do that, as far as you can remember?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: I do not want to start speaking untruths.  What I heard was something on Radio Metro on the following day, that there was a policeman who had been killed in Katlehong, a Mr Mashamahite.  At that time policeman were being killed, therefore it was always publicised.

ADV SIGODI: So as far as you know, your organisation didn't take any public responsibility for the killing of Mr Mashamahite?  Didn't make it known to the public that they were responsible.

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: I do not remember.