Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-15

ABRAM VAN ZYL: My evidence with regard to the fact that no vehicles were in the parking area, is clear.

MR WILLIAMS: They will testify further that some of the vehicles were slightly damaged and had to stay there overnight?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I dispute that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, are you saying some of the vehicles at the ...

MR WILLIAMS: At the back, at the parking area.

CHAIRPERSON: At the parking area that we saw yesterday?

MR WILLIAMS: Were slightly damaged, that is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were slightly damaged?

MR WILLIAMS: And one of the CAYCO members, in fact the CAYCO member that parked at the parking area,  could not or did not take, it is a lady, take her car home that night.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I dispute that.

MR WILLIAMS: Now, just, you have been a policeman for quite a while, would it make sense to you that if a bomb was detonated at a premises and there were cars in the parking area, that the police would want to keep the cars or the police would now allow people to take their cars, because it might contain leads, they would want to use that in their investigations?  Would that make sense?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It makes sense.

MR WILLIAMS: It is my further instructions that the lights were on and were clearly visible from the back side of the building or the front side of the building?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I have already testified about that.  I cannot say whether there were lights on in the premises.

MR WILLIAMS: My further instructions are, and it will be argued, and we will argue at the end of the day, that the time factor, the time when the bomb was placed, or detonated, the fact that the place was well lit, the fact that not more was done to ascertain whether there were in fact people inside the building, the fact that Gakkie had to go and see specifically whether the Kewtown Youth Movement members or the Steering Committee of the Youth Organisation, were there, the fact that cars were parked at the parking area, the back of the building, and the front part of the building, and the fact that R30 000 was budgeted for Gakkie, are all clear indications that the intention behind the bombing, was to kill those inside the building, or the members of the Kewtown Youth Movement.  Do you want to comment on that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I deny that vehemently.

MR WILLIAMS: Then, just before I finish off with my cross-examination, I just want to ask you a few general questions.
	The one is did your brother work at the Athlone SA police station at some point?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you repeat that, I did not catch the name?

MR WILLIAMS: Did, Johannes van Zyl.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear the question, if you could just repeat it, my fault, I was busy.

MR WILLIAMS: Did your brother, Johannes van Zyl, work at some point, at the Athlone South African Police?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Is it correct that the Athlone police station covered the area of Kewtown or that Kewtown fell under their jurisdiction?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It is possible.

MR WILLIAMS: Did he work there at the time of the incident?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Was there any communication either by yourself or other members of your unit, between yourselves and the SAP to the effect that you were expecting something to happen at that place that night?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Not at all.

MR WILLIAMS: Because my instructions are also that within minutes after the bomb was detonated, both the police and explosive experts were on the scene, do you want to comment on that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is possible.  There was no communication as far as I know, with any  member of the SAP.

MR WILLIAMS: Then furthermore, we have heard testimony that a certain Mr Ismail was used, he was tasked with burning down a kombi, I think?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Now, in the statement of Peaches that is before this Committee, in his statement mention is made of a person by the name of Mzoli.  Do you know whether Mzoli and Ismail is one and the same person, or not?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I don't know.

MR WILLIAMS: Then in the statement of Peaches, which is before this Committee, in Bundle B, page 196, he says that he was provided with a photograph of Johnny Esau by yourself and as we all know, Johnny Esau is an ex-member, ex-ANC member of Parliament and that he was tasked by yourself and that Peaches was tasked by yourself to monitor Johnny Esau, do you want to comment on that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I deny that.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you know whether or not Peaches made use of other gangsters or other members of the community, in certain projects besides Isgak and Ismail?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: The identity of no other person was known to me, except for Isgak, Ismail and Peaches.

MR WILLIAMS: In the statement of Peaches, he mentions the name Clive Petersen, he says that when he went to Johannesburg to monitor Gavin Evans, I think, Clive - or to murder Gavin Evans, Clive Petersen went with him.  Can you comment on this?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot.

MR WILLIAMS: He also says in his statement that a Mr Erwin Meyer was also used in one of the projects and that this person was in fact paid an amount of R4 000-00, can you comment on this?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I never heard that name before.

MR WILLIAMS: Is it possible that the person could have been involved, but you were just not aware of his name or identity?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I have no knowledge of any person whom Peaches gave R4 000-00.  The name does not ring any bells.

MR WILLIAMS: In his statement he also says that he was tasked by yourself to burn down, or someone was tasked by yourself, to burn down the Pegasus Centre which was also used by the Kewtown Youth Movement?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I deny that.

MR WILLIAMS: My instructions are that the Pegasus Centre is commonly known in the area as the BABS Centre, Build A Better Society?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It is possible.

MR WILLIAMS: My further instructions are that the Kewtown Youth Movement did on occasion, use that centre to have meetings?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It is possible.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you at any stage prior to co-opting Peaches or while you were in the process of co-opting him, hand a video to him or a movie to him which dealt with covert organisations in Israel or other countries?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: At no stage.

MR WILLIAMS: And then just lastly maybe, did Brig Engelbrecht and Gen Badenhorst tell you to deny all involvement in this bombing incident?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Amongst others, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Let me just ask you specifically, did Brig Engelbrecht tell you to deny it?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: My evidence was before other Commissions, it was clear that both persons came to see me at my residence and told me to deny my involvement with the CCB.

MR WILLIAMS: Did Brig Engelbrecht know about your involvement in the Early Learning Centre, in the bombing of the Early Learning Centre?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Possibly because of his investigation.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you confess or admit to him that you were in fact involved in that incident?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I told Gen Badenhorst about my involvement in the incidents and at that stage Gen Engelbrecht was at times present, they were together the evening, but my conversation was with Gen Badenhorst.

MR WILLIAMS: So is your testimony that Brig Engelbrecht knew about your involvement?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I believe so.

MR WILLIAMS: did he specifically tell you that you should deny your involvement?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I have just told you both persons told me to deny my involvement with the CCB.

MR WILLIAMS: I am asking you about the bombing incident specifically.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: My incidents, all my projects.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay, just lastly, I am going to ask you again, I am going to ask you again, did he specifically ask you to deny involvement in the bombing incident?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It is possible.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you remember, or can't you remember?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I cannot.