Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-18

UNKNOWN: You see, because Major Odendal, at the time Major Odendal, at the Weaver trial testified that the video team and Captain Liebenberg were in one vehicle on that particular day.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: It may be.  As Mr Williams says, if they testified like that, that was the case then.

UNKNOWN: Yes, but the point is that that was part of the planning session?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: They may have been there, Mr Chairman, I cannot say who was, everybody present at the planning.  If that is on record I cannot, do not have an argument with that.

UNKNOWN: Yes, but do you not agree it is significant that before this incident happens you have a video team on hand?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: At that stage, you can ask Dolf Odendal, it was, the situation in Cape Town was such that the video unit was always present at scenes of unrest.  I cannot comment on that, because that was not ...

UNKNOWN: You see, I want to put it to you that you were closely involved in the planning of this particular operation.  Not so, Captain?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And that you were particularly involved in planning that the video team also be there?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: If you say so and there is information that somebody had testified to that, I cannot deny that, I cannot see why I should not have done that.

UNKNOWN: And I want to put it to that you wanted to have this entire incident on film?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, it may be so.

UNKNOWN: So, why do we not have the incident on film?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Repeat please.

UNKNOWN: Why do we not have the incident on film?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: During the shooting?

UNKNOWN: Correct.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Remember, we have already withdrawn and vehicles were driving in various directions.  I cannot remember where the vehicle with the video equipment was and I cannot say where the vehicle with Liebenberg and the video equipment was.

UNKNOWN: Captain Bellingan, you say that it was normal operational procedure to have the video team with the unrest unit at the time.  You also concede that you may have planned for them to be on the scene on that particular day at the time and you can offer no explanation as to why we do not see one inch of footage regarding the incident itself?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: It was not my decision to tell the video team what to do when.

UNKNOWN: But would you not say that that would defeat the purpose of having the video unit there?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Somebody from the Western Cape should come and explain why or how the video unit function.  We did not plan a crime, we did not plan something so that the video unit had to be there.

UNKNOWN: Now, Captain Bellingan, this was an unusual situation, because it was your operation.  We are not talking about any scene.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, it was my operation and I was the person who co-ordinated everything and gathered the information.  I was still a junior, I was a Sergeant.  Dolf Odendal was in charge of this operation.

UNKNOWN: How could, sorry, go ahead.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I cannot explain that.  If he was not there, he was not there and why not, I cannot explain that either.

UNKNOWN: You see, I want to put it to you that extensive filming of what happened on that day must have taken place, more than what we have seen.  What do you say about that?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I cannot comment on that.  I did not handle the camera, it, I did not give them any instructions, so I cannot comment on that.

UNKNOWN: I want to put it to you too that it is, in fact, those portions of the video that we do not see and, possibly, additionally the portions that we do see that was shown to your Cabinet Ministers at the time.  Do you agree?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, I think so and the people at the video unit can be asked if they have kept that.  This video they have also kept the video which was provided to P W Botha and the Cabinet Ministers.  Perhaps they have edited that and if you provide a video to the State President, it should be edited.

UNKNOWN: Would you agree that if those portions of the video which were filmed while the incident occurred reflect unlawful activities, that that would be a very good reason not to disclose it?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I cannot say whether a video was made of the whole incident.  The videoman should be asked whether a film was made during this incident.  I would have noticed it, somebody should have shown me such a video.  I have never seen that, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: All right, if I can step off that point.  I am not sure if the, if that has been sorted out.
	Captain Bellingan, I just want to ask you one further question in relation to the video, perhaps you can assist us with that.  
	Sorry, Chair I am not getting where I want to be.  It is actually very difficult.  If I knew how to operate this machine I would actually ...
VIDEO SCREENING
"MR LABUSCHAGNE:  ... en die tyd nou 07:56 is, word na nog steeds uit die...
		... waar die hand grenaad gegooi was ..."
Alhowel hierdie voorval om omgeveer 07H20 na 07H25 gebeur het en die tyd nou 07:56 is, word daar nog steeds uit die bosse op die polisie gevuur.  Dit is nog een van die Swartes wat die bosse ingehardloop het ..."

UNKNOWN: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, I am not, I do not seem to be getting to the point where I want to be on this video.  It is just before that frame.
VIDEO SCREENING
"MR LABUSCHAGNE:  Op die oomblik is die optog nog aan die gang en lede van die SAP besig om die bos te vee. Dit kan gesien word dat hierdie bosse reedelik ruig is.
		... afgeskiet in die ...
... waar die twee lede nou aangestap kom is die plek waar die handgrenaad gegooi was.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairperson, it is actually very difficult, you know, I,.
VIDEO SCREENING
"MR LABUSCHAGNE:  Alhowel hierdie voorval om omgeveer 07H20 na 07H25 gebeur het en die tyd nou 07:56 is, word daar nog steeds uit die bosse op die polisie gevuur.

UNKNOWN: No, no, no, it is before this, before this frame.  Ja.  If I knew how to operate the machine I would actually ...
VIDEO SCREENING
"MR LABUSCHAGNE:   Daar is nog een van die Swartes wat die bosse ingehardloop het en hier deur die ..."

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you not do it?

UNKNOWN: It is just that frame.  It is just that frame just before that where you hear the, where you hear three police officers talking about a Tokarev.  It is, correct.  Just before they announce the time.  Perhaps, you could just stop there.
VIDEO SCREENING
"MR LABUSCHAGNE:  In die rigting van die spoorwegstasie."

UNKNOWN: Sorry, can you just stop it, the video there?  You will hear that that one officer says,
"Trompie has the Tokarev with
		him". 
Can you explain what that means?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I cannot give an explanation.

UNKNOWN: Will you concede that there was a person on the scene by the name of Sergeant Theron?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And his nickname was Trompie?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Why would Trompie have the Tokarev "by hom"?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I would not know.  We should ask Trompie that himself.  I cannot speak on his behalf.

UNKNOWN: All right.  If you could just play the video a little bit further.
VIDEO SCREENING
"MR LABUSCHAGNE:  Alhowel hierdie voorval om omgeveer 07H20 na 07H25 gebeur het en die tyd nou 07:56 is, word daar nog steeds uit die bosse op die polisie gevuur."

UNKNOWN: Can you just stop at that point please?  	You will hear the policeman saying there that there are shots being fired in the bush.  Will you agree with me, that in all probability, apart from the dog, in all probability, the shots that are being fired are in respect of deceased's S and Q, in all probability?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I do not want to speculate.  I am not going to speculate and look at possibilities.  I was not there, I did not see it, I did not hear it.  I am not going to comment on that.