Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-11

MR BOOYENS: Unfortunately it doesn't seem as though we'll get that information from this report.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I believe that this report was sent to the Free State.

MR BOOYENS: When you asked that Mr Kondile be released, were all branches informed?  Would Ladybrand have known or not?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, they would not, we've already referred to the application for his release.  We only inform head office or someone who was dealing with this matter, such as the Western Province if they had to do - if they had a function to fulfil.  Ladybrand had no knowledge at that stage that he had been released.

MR BOOYENS: So their last knowledge or information - as they possibly arrested him, was that he was still with you?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: If you can go back to 176. The date stamp which is on May - 176 at the top, it's not clear whose date stamp it is, is it the stamp of security head office or is it yours?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: It's the stamp of security head office.

MR BOOYENS: And it's dated 6 October '81, is that correct?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: This was also a false flag report?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Last time when - the last time you made contact with head office regarding Kondile you said you wanted to recruit him as an informer.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: That was that he could be used very well?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Now we know that the 6th of October 1981, was that Mr Kondile - by then he had been killed?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Does it appear from this when you sent the report?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I see the date of 6 October '81.

MR BOOYENS: But what is your date, I cannot see it here or don't you know?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I see the time but I don't see a date.

MR BOOYENS: But it was sent before the 6th of October '81?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes.  I accept that it would have been after the 2nd of the 10th.

MR BOOYENS: So between the 2nd of the 10th and the 6th of the 10th?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Is this just a smoke screen which is being given to explain why Kondile was not to be found anywhere?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: On page 76, - that's in Volume 1, is the authorisation of the Commissioner of Police, Mike Geldenhuys for the release of Kondile on 10 August '81.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

JUDGE PILLAY: When would the enquiry have been that you sent the report back to them after the 2nd of October?

MR BOOYENS: Are you now referring to document 175? ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

JUDGE PILLAY: This was in answer to an enquiry or am I wrong?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, the previous was, 175 was the answer or the reply to an enquiry and their letter was dated it seems 81/08 or 09 or 08/11 in brackets Major Smith.

JUDGE PILLAY: Why is the report on 176, why was this then sent?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: If I can just place it in perspective.  We reported that this man was dealt with as an informer and then the next things happened.  That documentation was sent to a section at security head office which opened a recruitment file or an informer file.
	They would ask me questions regarding several pieces of documentation which I had to follow up which I don't think is necessary to debate at this stage and all that I did is I let them know that he was no longer an informer, he did not appear.

JUDGE PILLAY: Thank you.

MR BOOYENS: I'm indebted to you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

ADV GCABASHE: Mr du Plessis, while we're talking documents, Volume 1 page 71, it's again one of these "releases", could you explain that to me?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Which page?

ADV GCABASHE: Page 71 of Volume 1, unless my Afrikaans isn't that brilliant.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: What would you like explained?

ADV GCABASHE: Can you just explain to me, you know there are all these releases - we've been talking about them, the one of the 10th of August really is the one we've been dealing with largely, but here is one that relates to the 10th of July from Bloemfontein.  Now I know that you had said that you requested that Sizwe Kondile be transferred to you but this is a "release", just explain these letters to me.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I'm going to try and explain what happens in practice if I can remember correctly.  The moment we requested the transfer of Kondile - because at that stage you must remember he was detained in terms of Section 22, they reported to head office that he had been transferred to Port Elizabeth and that he had to be discharged in the Free State.  That is to say that their documentation had to be or they had to - they had a warrant, there had to be a counter-warrant and that's all that this says.

JUDGE PILLAY: In other words he's released in Bloemfontein or detention had to be cancelled so that he could go to Port Elizabeth?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.  On page 72 it says that from that date he was transferred to Humansdorp.  On page 73, section 6 where he was transferred from Humansdorp to Jeffrey's Bay.

ADV GCABASHE: So to the lay person really these letters are a bit confusing because they mean two things, they mean that you are being released or they mean that you are being transferred but not released?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I don't want to say that, I do not believe all the documentation.  The first thing that comes is a warrant for transfer and I had to then get this from the Free State to sent him to Jeffrey's Bay or Humansdorp, then they replace this with the real warrant and this takes a bit of time to get hold of these things.  So the fact is just that everything is not here.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moosa, I don't think anything here has directly affected your case in this matter, has it?

MR MOOSA: No, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And Mr Jansen, you have no interest in what has been said in the last few minutes?

MR JANSEN: Well Mr Chairman, I just have one question.

CHAIRPERSON: You may put your one question.

MR JANSEN: Just bear with me Mr Chairman.
	Mr du Plessis, on page 175, would you agree that the language use is misleading in the sense that it's being used in the present tense, it creates the impression that Kondile had alleged that at that stage?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's possible, yes one could read it in this way.

MR JANSEN: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Did you have any questions to put to this witness Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: I don't have any questions thank you Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: I'm indebted to the Commission Mr Chairman, I think it just clarified a few uncertainties that we had.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you.

MR VISSER: May I know call Mr Raath Mr Chairman?