Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR VALLY: Can you tell me if in your presence, besides the one incident that you've mentioned that you've pointed out, can you remember any other issue that was discussed at a meeting where you were present between Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and Mr Erasmus?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: I want to give me specific issues which you aware of, which were discussed.

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Are you aware of any other issues that were discussed between Mr Erasmus and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela other than the fact that he pointed you out as an informer to her?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Let's move on to Mr Moodley.  What's your basis for saying that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela knew Mr Moodley even before you were in prison for the murder of Mr Stompie Seipei.

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Is that the basis for your allegation regarding Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and Mr Moodley. Something that Mr Moodley allegedly told you whilst you were in prison, and this was after the trial when you were charged for the murder on Mr Stompie Seipei.

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: This was in 1995.  This is I say 1995,  because this is when he in terms of our information saw you in prison regarding the issue of Dr Asvat, as well as Mr Sono and Mr Shabalala disappearance.  Is there any other time before 1995 which give you a reason to make this allegation.   Is there any other incident which took place before the time he saw you in prison?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: I just want to get this name clear.  You said, Johnny de Baird.  Johnny Bird.

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Johnny Bird.  Fine.  Did you ever see Mr Moodley as Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Did you ever see Mr Moodley as Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?  It is a yes or a no.

JERRY RICHARDSON: : Yes.

MR VALLY: Which house, Diepkloof or Orlando?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : I saw him at Orlando-West.

MR VALLY: Did you see them having a conversation?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Did you over hear the conversation?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Can you tell us what they were talking about, and be specific please.

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: So you heard this conversation between Mr Moodley and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela about a trip to Transkei?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Did you hear any other conversation?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Let's go on to Sonwabo.  Do you know what happened to him?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Are you aware that he was killed?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: You mentioned that you knew Mr Johannes  Mbatha also know as Themba.  Do you recall that?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Mr Mbatha made a statement  while he was detained in terms of section 29.  I will read you what he said about you and the Stompie murder, and I'm starting to quote.  This is from paragraph 30 of the documents we have handed to Mr  Semenya, Page 7:  After the Stompie affair received media coverage, Jerry Richardson, Soccer coach reported to W Mandela that he and a man called Sledge had killed and buried Stompie.  At the time of the reports, I was present myself, Jerry, Sledge and W Mandela was in the study of her house when Jerry reported this to Winnie.  W Mandela was upset and wanted to know from Jerry why he had not told her before, and after she had told him not to take Stompie away.
 What is your response to this statement, allegedly made by Themba?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Are you saying that this statement is true, or not true?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: So, in terms of this statement, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was not aware that you  killed Stompie, and was upset that you had not told her before, after she had told you not to take Stompie away.  Is that true?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Please, Mr Richardson, a minute ago you told me it was true, and no you're saying it's a lie.  Do you want to read this statement yourself, and want to give me a clear answer, whether this allegation allegedly made by Themba, I say allegedly, because this is a statement taken from him while you were detained in terms of Section 29.   Do you want to read it yourself and give us a clear answer, whether this allegation is true or not true?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: I'll start off this quote:  After the Stompie affair received media coverage, Jerry Richardson, Soccer coach, reported to W Mandela, that he and a man called Sledge, had killed and buried Stompie.  At the time of this report, I was present myself, Jerry, Sledge and W Mandela was in the study of her house when this was reported to Winnie.  W Mandela was upset, and wanted to know from Jerry why he had not told her before, and after she had told him not to take Stompie away.
 Let me break it up.  He said you were present at a meeting.  Themba, yourself, Sledge and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.  You and a man called Sledge, reported to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela that you have killed and buried Stompie.  After your report, she was upset and wanted to know from you why you had not told her before, after she had told you not to take Stompie away.

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: We know Themba is dead.  I'm putting it to you, because he said you were at that meeting.  Is his alleged report of that meeting, true, or not true?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (no translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richardson, (no translation)

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: If such a meeting take place where you reported back to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, in the presence of Themba, where you reported back to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela about Stompie, in the presence of Themba.  Let's go on to one last issue.

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Let's go on to one last issue.   In the trial involving yourself, you stated that at a present period in December, 1988, that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was not present at a house in Diepkloof when the whole issue of the kidnapping of the four young men from the manse, and the subsequent assaults took place.  Do you still maintain the same story today, that you told the Court at the time of your trial?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Why did you tell the Court that at the time?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Why were you not free to talk in your own trial when you possibly facing a very long sentence, if not a death sentence, didn't you think you should talk the truth to save yourself?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.  I have asked for order!

MR VALLY: Is your evidence today, especially the evidence which is allegedly implicating  Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and a number of criminal activities the truth, or merely an act of revenge, because you feel that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was not paying you enough attention, whilst you were in prison?

JERRY RICHARDSON: : (No translation)

MR VALLY: Is what you have told us today, the truth or not?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Richardson.  No more questions.

CHAIRPERSON: : Thank you very much.  Mr Semenya.

MR SEMENYA: Thank you chairperson.

MR SEMENYA: Mr Richardson,  the amount of R10 000-00.  How was that calculated?  Was it R5 000-00 ahead of the killer?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR SEMENYA: No, what I mean is, they were paying you money owed to you.  Is that right?

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR SEMENYA: You haven't received the money.

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.  Mr Richardson (no translation)

JERRY RICHARDSON: (No translation)

MR SEMENYA: Mr Richardson, the security police owe you R10 000-00.