Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-03-30

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I'm certain because they were happening to me personally.
ADV. SANDI: The fact that this is an incident which happened more than five years ago is something which would not effect your ability to remember the exact order of events, is that what you're saying?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I could not forget it because it disturbed my whole life.
ADV. SANDI: Thank you.

MR NTONGA: Let's talk about the two shots that we heard - the first two shots.  How far apart can you say they were?  In minutes, seconds, hours?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: They were not something like those from a machine gun.

MR NTONGA: So there was a space in between?  Time factors please?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: The difference when you shoot with a machine gun you can hear that this is an automatic.  When there's one that is held by hand it can be heard, I mean it did not sound like a machine gun.

MR NTONGA: By that answer are you saying that you can't give me an estimation about how far apart - was it a second, two seconds and hour?  There's one thing, if you can't say so, say so please.

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I could not estimate when I was hit - I was confused my brain was not working properly but I could hear the sound was not that of a machine gun.

MR NTONGA: I'm sorry if I confused you I was talking about the first two shots that was before you were shot.  If I confused you I apologise for that.  I was talking about the first, before you drew your firearm and you - was said you were hit.  I accept the answer that you cannot say how long but if there's any confusion with that you can correct it now.

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: The first two shots I heard before responding I - they sounded like those coming from a 9 mm.

CHAIRPERSON: How far apart were they, can you indicate, one shot, two shots - how far apart were they?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: It sounded - kwa-kwa.

MR NTONGA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	And you have told the Commission that after you were hit with a bullet for the first time, having drawn your firearm you were confused, you could not aim, this problem, this man - was shot in the air.  Remember that?  You own response, you own response when you shot, remember that, is that correct?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Yes that is so.

MR NTONGA: I want to ask if you were confused how do you remember that you shot at the air instead of saying I was confused, I should not know what happened, where it landed?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Because when the shot hit me I felt like I was going up and I noted that the gun was pointing up, that's the last time I remember and I felt like there was a very strong injection into me from a doctor.

MR NTONGA: Why do say that was the last time you remember, was that when you lost consciousness after the shooting or after a further shooting at you?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: After I was shot I remember while I was hit that I was trying to respond to this person wearing a khaki cap, with a khaki jacket and a striped pair of trousers.
ADV. GCABASHE: Thank you.  Mr Sandla can you just count the total number of shots that you heard including the ones that were directed at you for me?  If you can start with the first two.  I just trying to determine which were the ones that - whether the first two were the ones that hit the security officer and Mr Pama and then the others hit you and then there was another one, can you just total those for me?  I can break the question down for you if you'd if you'd like me to?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I heard two shots ringing.
ADV. GCABASHE: Now those shots did not hit you, you just heard these two, and then?   And the next one hit you?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Yes they hit me.
ADV. GCABASHE: Those were two, as you drew your firearm, then two hit you and then a third one after you had drawn your firearm is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: He hasn't said that.
ADV. GCABASHE: That's why I'm asking.

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: After I heard - after I had regained my consciousness I noted that there were three bullets in my leg but they were shooting me they sounded like a barrage.
ADV. GCABASHE: So the ones you can clearly identify were the first two that didn't hit you and then the ones that hit you as you were drawing your firearm, those were the ones you can clearly identify?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I am certain about the two I heard whilst I was going to close the door.
ADV. GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR NTONGA: I think it's a convenient time to adjourn now.

CHAIRPERSON: We will now take the adjournment to a quarter to two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: (s.u.o.)

MR NTONGA: (continues)
	In one of your replies to a question from the Commission, you talked about a barrage of shots.  Can you explain that - what you meant?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I meant the bullets that entered my body, my leg through the back.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understood your evidence though when you were talking about this barrage of bullets you meant that you weren't sure how many bullets were fired at you, a number of bullets were fired at you, you know that three of them entered your body.  Is that correct?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I only got to know when I regained my consciousness as to how many entered my body.

CHAIRPERSON: But you did not know how many shots were fired at you?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: That is so, yes.

MR NTONGA: The place where you were when you were shot, you were about - you say you were about eight to ten paces from where the other policeman and the security was shot, am I correct?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I did not talk about a number of feet.

CHAIRPERSON: You said from where you were sitting to the interpreters, you were that far away.

MR NTONGA: Were they nearer to the place where they - that is the policeman and the security - were they nearer the place where the money was being counted as compared to you?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: They were at the row downwards or below the office attached to the hall.

MR NTONGA: But they were at the same level with that office although below it somewhere, somehow?  At the same floor?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I can say there were the distance of where I'm sitting to the glasses sitting the interpreters, the first security man and then the second security guard was standing with Pama.

MR NTONGA: So the first security was nearer to the place where the money was being counted - that's compared the first one that was with Mr Pama - or the other way around?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: The security guard we talked with first was further away from where the money was counted and then the second one I was asking about the doors to be closed and so on, was the one closer to the office related to monies.  The distance as pointed out between him and the ...[inaudible]

MR NTONGA: The applicant in this application version is that he was outside, he didn't see what was happening inside the auditorium but he received a report from those people that they people who started shooting were the policemen in plain clothes.  Do you have any comments on that?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: That is not so.

MR NTONGA: That is not so even when you did not see the first shots, how they were fired and by whom because they were being fired at your back whilst you were going to close the door?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I ask the question to be repeated please.

MR NTONGA: I'm saying that the report which was received by the applicant that the policemen wearing plain clothes inside started shooting and then there was a shooting in the auditorium - he himself, outside and your reply was that that is not so.  So the question is, do you say so despite the fact that you were not looking at where Mr Pama and the security were when the two shots were fired because they were at your back and you were going to close the door?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I'm still maintaining yes.