Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, before I identify the matter and the billing, may I make two requests.  That the people with cellphones please switch them off whilst the Committee is in session.
	Secondly, I understand from the transcribers they require some voice identification of the various representatives for the transcription.  If we may do that once the matter has been properly called.

CHAIRPERSON: For the purposes of the record I'm going to ask firstly the members of the panel to identify themselves and thereafter each one of this array of legal representatives to say who they represent and their names.
	For the record, I'm Judge Pillay.

MR MALAN: My name is Wynand Malan.

ADV GCABASHE: Advocate Gcabashe.

MR MALAN: Somebody has got to switch mike off.
PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES

ADV BOSMAN: I'm Advocate Francis Bosman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, could you?

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I'm Advocate Prior, Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee.

MS VAN DER WALT: I am Advocate Liza van der Walt.  I appear on behalf of the applicants.  On record, I appear for applicants one and two but my instructions for them was ended this morning.  I now appear for applicant number three as it is on the record, applicant 4, 5 and 7.

MR PRINSLOO: I am Advocate Harry Prinsloo.  I appear on behalf of applicant 6, Johan du Plessis and 8 to 12 Chairperson.

MR LANDMAN: I'm Advocate A P Landman of the Johannesburg Bar, instructed by Mr Patel of the Wits Law Clinic and I appear of behalf of a victim of the Bree Street Bombings, Mr Joseph Buthelezi.

MS CAMBANIS: I'm Crystal Cambanis from the firm, Nicols Cambanis, appearing for the family of the deceased, Yaliswa Rita Siako: Bree Street, for an injured person, Sifiso Freda Ngwenya: Bree Street, Joan Fubbs: Bree Street, John and Joan Keans: Bree Street.

MR PATEL: My name is Adi Patel.  I'm from the Wits Law Clinic, representing Joseph Buthelezi.

MR MAKUBELA: I'm Advocate T Makubela.  I'm instructed by the Legal Aid Board.  I appear for a victim of the Bree Street Bombing, John Ngoba.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: My name is Kriel from the Firm F A Jacobs and Kriel Attorneys, Germiston.  I appear on behalf of a victim, Jonathan Skosana as well as his family. I have been instructed by the Legal Aid Board.

MR MADLUM: My name is Ike Madlum for the firm Madlum and Associated in Germiston.  We're acting on behalf of the Germiston Bomb Victims, Mr Maseko and Mr Maseu respectively.

MR BRACHER: Patrick Bracher from Attorneys de Nuys, Reitz. I represent the surviving parents of the victim Ontong in Germiston, Mrs Hilda Hosane Semenya also Germiston and Mr Simon Walker, a victim of the Bree Street Bombing.  I'm assisted by Mr Marcus Sinjatsi who may also speak so I will put him on record too.

MR SINJATSI: Marcus Sinjatsi, de Nuys Reitz Attorneys.  I represent Ontong, Walker and Semenya.

MR PRIOR: May I proceed Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to make one thing clear in case there is any misunderstanding.  There's one representative per victim or applicant, is that not so?  Do we understand that?
PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, the date being the 17th of June 1998 and it's the amnesty applications as prepared and as billed, of Nicolas Clifton Barnard and 11 others which proceeds today.
	Mr Chairman, may I indicate that all the relevant notices in terms of Section 19 have been sent out to implicated persons and to victims.  As the Committee will see they are broadly and widely represented this morning.  I do have all the returns and the various copies before me if it should prove necessary.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, I see there's a person sitting at the table that I assume is going to be the table from where evidence is going to be led, do you know anything about that?  Who is he?

MS VAN DER WALT: Chairperson, this is Mr Myburgh, the second applicant.  I let him sit there because he represents himself.  My instruction was ended this morning and that's why he is sitting there.  Mr Barnard didn't come from the prison, he wasn't prepared to come but I did not receive any further instructions from him.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the position with his application or do you not know?

MS VAN DER WALT: According to what I was told by Mr Myburgh is that he is withdrawing his application.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Mr Myburgh, do you have anything to say?

MR MYBURGH: Yes.  I also want to withdraw my amnesty application.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, then you are excused.
MR MYBURGH EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, I need to give an instruction.  I think the evidence investigator or some investigator be requested to go and visit Mr Barnard and perhaps get a written withdrawal of some sort.

MR PRIOR: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Otherwise we can proceed.  I assume applicant number 3 will be proceeded with.

MS VAN DER WALT: There is just one aspect if you allow me Chairperson, which I would just like to clarify.  The application forms which were sent in for some of the applicants at that stage, and this is now during May last year, because of a great amount of applications some of the printed forms were not available and I myself typed forms.  I forgot to add a date to some of the application forms.
	I have discussed this with Mr Prior this morning, but on the Commission's file there is a covering letter by myself on the day when I submitted the application forms on the 10th of May.   I would like to ask you Mr Chairperson that this cover letter will indicate that these applications were done before that date and there's is also a member of the Committee present to whom I handed the application forms in in Bloemfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, do you have dispute or objections to that?

MR PRIOR: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Then we accept that it is correct and in order.

MS VAN DER WALT: That is then the same for Mr Prinsloo's, thank you very much.  I call Mr Etienne le Roux, the third applicant.

MR ETIENNE J LE ROUX: (sworn states)

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr le Roux you are the third applicant in this application and your application forms ...[intervention]  There is something wrong with these microphones, a person can't speak through it.
(Microphone problems attended to)

MS VAN DER WALT: On page 48 to 65 and Annexure B, that explains the political goal and on page 214 to 223, you confirm the contents of your application?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I do confirm that.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr le Roux, on the 7th of May you were born in Pretoria, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And in what type of house did you grown up, politically speaking?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson, I grew up in a conservative household.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did you receive any military training?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, in 1972 I was in the 4th Regiment in Potchefstroom.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you do any border duties?

MR LE ROUX: No, not at all.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were you a member of the AWB during the incident for which you are applying for?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, during the incident I was a member of the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: When did you join the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: It is approximately 10 years ago but  I cannot say with certainty what the date was.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did you join the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: I was in the CP, that was the political party to which I belonged and the AWB was the resistance movement which I thought would give us a Volkstaat.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you go through any course in the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I did.  We did camps, various camps where we received training concerning "ter sel" training.

MS VAN DER WALT: And do you support or did you support the ideology of the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: Yes, I did agree with all the principles of the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what were these principles?