Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-04-13

MR NHLAPO: As I just explained, inasfar as that is concerned, that happened in such a way that as soon as we obtain the firearm then we will escape or run away.  As I also had explained that when I pointed the firearm at him my friend went to take out the car keys and as he was rushing to where the firearm was, the deceased also did that and that's at that moment when he shouted and said: "He has a gun, he has a gun".

UNKNOWN: So your friend didn't order the keys, he actually went to the ignition and took the keys by force, is that your evidence now?

MR NHLAPO: I just said that he took out the keys from the ignition, not ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: What I'm saying is, your earlier evidence was that he demanded the keys and the deceased refused to hand over the keys to him, is it now your evidence that actually he didn't demand the keys, he just went to the car and took the keys because he didn't want you to chase them?  Is that your evidence now?

MR NHLAPO: I don't remember saying he demanded the keys, he just opened the door.  I don't remember saying he demanded the keys.

UNKNOWN: It's also in your affidavit, paragraph 25, page 24, and I asked you about it, you confirmed that:  "Yes, they demanded the keys and the firearm."
That was your own evidence earlier on.

MR NHLAPO: No, please can you read that part with regards to the key, because he opened ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Will you accept if I tell you, you under oath said that your colleague asked for the keys?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, I did take an oath.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I'm asking you if you accept if I tell you that you did in fact testify that your colleague had demanded the keys of that motor vehicle.  You say you forgot or you don't remember saying so, I'm telling you you did say so.  It seems that you told your advocate as well because it's inserted in your affidavit as well.

MR NHLAPO: Well I do accept that now because you see, there are so many questions that have been bombarded my way and I get confused.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I believe there's one more coming.

UNKNOWN: ...(indistinct) one more.

CHAIRPERSON: No more?

UNKNOWN: One more.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

UNKNOWN: On paragraph 31 you say that you
"(were convicted of robbery of the keys of the vehicle)"
And you say your intention was to rob the deceased of his firearm.  Now my question is, are you applying for the robbery of the keys of the vehicle, or are you applying for amnesty for the robbery or attempted robbery of the firearm?  Can you just clarify what you are applying for amnesty for and what you are denying?

MR NHLAPO: I'm here to apply for amnesty because I killed the deceased.  This is why I am here, because I killed him and I'm seeking amnesty in respect of that.

UNKNOWN: So you are not applying for the robbery of the keys of the vehicle, which you were convicted of, is that your evidence?

MR NHLAPO: No, I'm applying for amnesty for the killing.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Only?  Only in respect of the killing?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, for the killing, that's all.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, you're done?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chair, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Miller, have you got any questions?

MR MILLER: No, no re-examination.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MILLER

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Tsotsi?

DR TSOTSI: No, questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, one thing interests me here.  You say the purpose of trying to rob the policeman of his firearm was that you needed to protect your home and you wanted a firearm to protect your house, did I understand you correctly?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, that's what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: Now were you working at the time?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, I was working.

CHAIRPERSON: What day did this incident take place?

MR NHLAPO: This took place on the 27th of August 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: What day of the week was that?

MR NHLAPO: I think it was on a Friday.

CHAIRPERSON: What time of day would this have taken place?

MR NHLAPO: At eleven.

CHAIRPERSON: In the morning?

MR NHLAPO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the firearm you had, you say the police confiscated it when they arrested you?

MR NHLAPO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they arrest you on the same day as this incident?

MR NHLAPO: Yes, on the same day of the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: How long had you had that firearm in your possession before the police confiscated it?

MR NHLAPO: I had a - it was about a week.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that your firearm?

MR NHLAPO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So why did you need to rob somebody else of a firearm to protect your home when you had one?

MR NHLAPO: You see, we needed more guns because we only had one, insufficient in other words.

CHAIRPERSON: And your friend, was he staying there with you?

MR NHLAPO: Yes

CHAIRPERSON: And he had a gun?

MR NHLAPO: No, he did not, I had one, not him.

CHAIRPERSON: How many guns did you have at the house?

MR NHLAPO: In that shack we occupied, it was myself and one other companion of mine that had guns.  In other words, we had two.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Miller, are there any other witnesses you'd like to call?

MR MILLER: No, no further witnesses, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, are you going to call any witnesses?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chair, I'm going to call Mr Andries Molaoa, the brother of the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: You can call him.

UNKNOWN: Can I please request the sound technicians to provide us with another mike, please.

CHAIRPERSON: There's one.  What is the name?

UNKNOWN: Could you give us your full names please?

MR MOLOA: Andries Moloa: M-O-L-O-A.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moloa, what language do you want to speak?

MR MOLOA: Southern Sesotho.

UNKNOWN: Sorry Mr Chair, can I just correct the spelling, it's M-O-L-A-O-A.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objections to taking the prescribed oath?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Be seated.  Yes?

UNKNOWN: Mr Molaoa, what is your relationship to the deceased?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: He is my brother, in fact my elder brother.

UNKNOWN: Where did the deceased reside?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: He resided in Pimville, Zone 3.

UNKNOWN: And did he work?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: At Kliptown Police Station.

UNKNOWN: And how far is Kliptown from Albertina, where he was killed?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: It was quite far, it is in East Rand.  Soweto is in West Rand.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember the day your brother died?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present when he was killed?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Yes, I was present.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us what happened that day?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Please.

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Two people approached us whilst we were seated in the car.  We had taken our father to a doctor.  These two people approached us.  The other one got into the car from the left-hand side and the other one went towards the driver's side, where he was seated.  This one who was on the left-hand side managed to get into the car, then he demanded the car keys from the deceased.
	Then this other one who was on the passenger's side  was pointing his firearm at the deceased, then he ordered Mr Nhlapo to shoot at the deceased.  - this other one who was at the driver's side.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Mr Nhlapo in the van, because I don't follow?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: He was not in the car.

CHAIRPERSON: How many of them were there?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: It was the two of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Now who got into the car?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: This one who was accompanying Mr Nhlapo.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Nhlapo was at the driver's side?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  And the one that was inside ordered Mr Nhlapo to shoot the deceased?

ANDRIES MOLAOA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, carry on.

ANDRIES MOLAOA: That is where Mr Nhlapo shot at the deceased.

UNKNOWN: And then what happened when they shot him, what did they do after that?