Amnesty Hearings — Carltonville — 1998-08-11

CHAIRPERSON: What are your full names?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: (sworn states)

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, sorry, the application of this applicant can be found on page 24 to 33 of the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR KOOPEDI: May we proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do go ahead.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Mr Chair.
	You have heard the evidence of two of your co-applicants inasfar as the background leading to the death of the two deceased persons, do you confirm that?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Now let us take this Honourable Committee through what you did on that day.  We agree that you went to Bekkersdal with the group, is that correct?
	Now when you got to Bekkersdal and there were two groups, is it correct that you were in the one group which consisted of the first two applicants and others?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now when was it when you first saw the two deceased on that day?  At what stage did you see them?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: ...[no English translation]

MR KOOPEDI: The deceased persons.

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: I began to see them for the first time where we stabbed them, that was for the first time I saw them.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  Now, do you remember that from the X section there was a chase through a veld and into the mine premises?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now when this chase was ensuing, where were you?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: I was together with Morupisi at the back.

MR KOOPEDI: Now let's go into the mine premises, what happened when you arrived in the mine?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: When they entered the mine premises I saw them stopping and started fighting with comrade Boyki, comrade Steve, comrade Kontwani(?).

MR KOOPEDI: And when you saw them starting to fight, what did you do?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: I went there to help comrade Boyki to fight KK, whilst comrade Mela(?) went to fight ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The speaker is not audible enough.

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: When I arrived I helped comrade Steve and Boyki to fight KK whilst comrade Chaba was fighting comrade Bafino.  I stabbed him and I kicked him while Steve was stabbing also and kicking.

MR KOOPEDI: With what did you stab him?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: I stabbed him with a fish knife.

MR KOOPEDI: Where did you get this knife?  Were you armed with it all along?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: Whilst we were together before we went to Bekkersdal, as I was a member of the SDU and the ANC Youth League, I went home to fetch this fish knife so that I would be able to defend myself against these criminals.

MR KOOPEDI: Did you use any other weapon other than the knife?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: No, Sir.

MR KOOPEDI: Would you tell the Honourable Committee here who else participated on what we have now termed the second deceased, Bafino?  Who was involved in Bafino, yourself and who?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: I did not watch, I saw them fighting him but I did not see who stabbed him and kicked him before I came.

MR KOOPEDI: My apologies, you were involved with the first deceased and not the second deceased, KK?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now let's concentrate on KK.  Other than yourself, who else was involved with KK?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: It was Steve and Boyki.

MR KOOPEDI: And no other persons?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: Tebogo came later, after we had finished with him but he started to kick KK.

MR KOOPEDI: Tebogo is the deceased person, the person who we've been told died?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Now it is of paramount importance to this Honourable Committee to understand the political motivation you had when you killed the deceased people.  Will you tell the Committee what political motive you had?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: The political motivation that we had is that those people were terrorising the community and they were robbing the community, they were assaulting the youth which was staying in the location and that is why we took steps as member of the ANC Youth League, so that we will be able to resolve this problem because when we lay charges against these people, the police would not take steps.  That is why we assembled and discussed this problem and the solutions to this problem, until we decided to organise kombis so that those should go to Bekkersdal.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, did you have anything personal to gain by killing these people?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: Pardon?

MR KOOPEDI: ...[inaudible]

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: No, Sir, I didn't have any personal gain.

MR KOOPEDI: To your recollection, have you told this Honourable Committee the whole truth, have you fully disclosed the facts of that day?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: I would say that because I've already said is what has been said by the previous two applicants, that is Mokoena and van Rooyen.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay.  Other than what we've discussed, is there anything that you think we've left behind and is there anything that you would want to add?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: No, Sir, I have nothing to add.  I think I've said a mouthful and all points which I wanted to tell this Committee.

MR KOOPEDI: You mentioned something earlier to me about an apology, do you recall that?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Could you take this Honourable Committee into your confidence about what you said re the apologies?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: I want this community - I'm apologising before this Committee and together with the members of the family of the deceased, their friends, that they should understand why they were killed.  I'm asking for forgiveness before this Committee.  I will not repeat this kind of an incident.

MR KOOPEDI: Mr Chair, that will be the case for the applicant.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp?

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Sir, if I look at your amnesty application, specifically at page 27, and I read there from the second paragraph, I'll just read it to you to refresh your memory:
"One of our members was attacked by a member of the thugs and brutally stabbed.  We did embark on action against those elements, as SDU members"
Is this why you killed both the deceased?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: I did not kill them because they started or they did what they did, we did that because of their criminal activities in the township.  That is the reason why we ended up killing these two people.

MR STEENKAMP: The last question, the statements of Nzeku and Mr Ramagotedi indicated that your actions were purely criminal and no political motive was involved, would you agree to that?  What is your submission in this regard?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: I dispute that.  I dispute what they are saying.  I agree with them when they are saying they did not give us the orders.  It is ourselves who started to discuss this issue and try to resolve this problem and how we should go to Bekkersdal.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP

ADV DE JAGER: Were any of these thugs ever arrested and brought before court, for instance for rape or robbery?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: No, Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: I understood the first applicant to say that one of their members were in jail for some offence, for rape?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: So how can you then say nobody was arrested, here we had one being arrested and being in jail?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: I did not say that.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but did you know that he was arrested for rape and sentenced to jail?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: Yes, I knew.

ADV DE JAGER: What was his name?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: That is Bafino Sedisa.

ADV DE JAGER: Was he a leader of the gang or only an ordinary member?

ABRAM DIDI MAUMAKWE: I don't know their leader, I knew them only as members of that gang.

ADV DE JAGER: Anybody else that you know of that has been arrested, of the gang?