Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-17

CHAIRPERSON: Did you finish that point?  Yes, very well.  We'll adjourn for lunch.  We'll come back at 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: ... [inaudible] you're still under oath?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Dukada.

MR DUKADA: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairman, Honourable members.  Mr Dandala, remember that when we adjourned I was asking you about what was taking place at Barkly East.  When you arrived there, but before we deal with what happened there, who did you meet on arrival at Barkly East, besides Constable Booyse?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I did not find any other person there.

MR DUKADA: Was there anything said to you by any policemen there?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, no such thing was said, any such thing was said.

MR DUKADA: You have given evidence to say that you did not know that Braam Moss, Shabalala and Shosha were askaris?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes, I did not know.

MR DUKADA: And you first knew that they were askaris when you were proceeding down, facing the direction of Elliott, just before Batandwa could jump out?  I'm sorry to correct myself Mr Chairman.  When you were proceeding to Xala, you heard them conversing about a person who doesn't co-operate with them and it was then that you became aware that they were askaris?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I asked as to whether all of us were policemen in the kombi and they said no they are not policemen.

MR DUKADA: You made a statement to an investigating officer, I don't remember the  name, if you could turn to Page - I'm sorry Mr Chairman, I've just lost the trend.

CHAIRPERSON: ... [inaudible] appears on Page 29 which was probably made, I think it's on the 2nd October 1997, is that the one?

INTERPRETER: ...[problem with microphone]

MR DUKADA: I'm sorry Mr Chairman.  I've got the exact paragraph I want to refer the witness to at Page 30 of the bundle.  There is a statement which was made by the witness on the 2nd October 1997 but will you Mr Dandala, have a look at Page 30 of the document?  Do you know this sentence begins with the words,
"I don't know if it is okay to mention",
have you seen that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes, I see it.

CHAIRPERSON: The statement which commences from Page 29, all the way through to 40.  The statement that commences at Page 29 of the bundle of documents which begins by saying, "the statement of suspect Gcinisiko Lamont Dandala".  Is that the statement that you made to the investigating officer?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That's correct sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you recall when this statement was made?  It says it was made on the 2nd October 1997.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes I do.  I do remember.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ... [inaudible] direct you to Page 30.  Do you have Page 30 there?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Will you please read Page 30 of the bundle, the sentence which begins with the words, "I don't know", can you read that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I don't know if it is okay to mention that these men were not SAP members.  Were not SAP members.  I don't know if it is okay to mention that these men were SAP members because there is something that I realised later.  What I realised later is that they were askaris, these were askaris.  Askaris are trained terrorists.  I realised it after the offence was committed.

MR DUKADA: Yes sorry.  Just stop there.  Unless you wish to proceed?  Can you see now that in the statement you made you say that you first knew that Braam Moss, Shabalala and Shosha were askaris after the killing of Batandwa?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: What I was trying to explain here is that there is this word askaris.  I did not know it.  I used to know the word trained terrorist.  Trained terrorist.  I got to know the word askari after they were killed.  I mean after the killing of Ndondo.

MR DUKADA: In your evidence in chief you indicated that you began to know that the three were defectors from the ANC, whilst you were on the way to Xala?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: And you felt threatened, as a result of the threat you participated in the killing, is that correct?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes, that's so.

MR DUKADA: But now, in your statement you say, "I realised it after the offence was committed".

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is why I'm saying I was trying to explain about the word askaris.

MR DUKADA: I'm not concerned about the word askari Mr Dandala.  What I'm concerned about is that before you reached, on the way to Xala you discovered that the three were ANC defectors?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is correct.

MR DUKADA: And as a result of the conversation which was taking place you felt threatened?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Correct.

MR DUKADA: Now you say in your, let me just again refer to this paragraph, "I don't know if it is okay to mention that these men were SAP members" because there is something that I realised later.  What I realised later is that they were askaris.  In other words what you are saying here, you realised that they were ANC defectors after the killing?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: If I understand you correctly, as far as I am concerned I was trying to explain the word askari.  It may be that it does not sound like that but that's what I was trying to do.  But I did not know that word.  I got to know about it after the incident.

MR DUKADA: Can I ask this question to you.  Can I ask you this question Mr Dandala?  When did you first know that the three were ANC defectors?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Along the way towards Xala.

MR DUKADA: You see after the incident all of you made statements, is that correct?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, it's me and Braam Moss.

MR DUKADA: And in his statement Braam Moss indicated, right at the beginning of his statement, Mr Chairman it's not part of the bundle.  I must apologise the assumption I made which was in fact a mistake, I just, all these documents they come from the TRC offices, I just assumed that all the panels are in possession of the document.
	I shall nevertheless hand in the statements during the course of the proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Dukada.

MR DUKADA: In the statement made by Braam Moss, after the killing, he says,
"I am a former member of the African National Congress.  I was arrested on 4th September 1972 in Queenstown by the South African Police.  I was released after co-operating and testifying for the State in several court cases.  Because of the knowledge and background I possess on the ANC I was employed by the Transkeian Police to assist them in combating and investigating the activities of the ANC in the Republic of Transkei."
Surely you must know about that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No I don't know about it.

MR DUKADA: Do you mean that the fact that Braam Moss was employed by the Transkeian Police was not known to you prior to the killing of Batandwa?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Can you please repeat your question?

MR DUKADA: Do you mean that before the killing of Batandwa, you did not know that Braam Moss was employed by the Transkeian Police to cope with the ANC?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't know Moss at all?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I did not know him at all.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  And again Shosha also made a statement where she indicated that she was also a defector from the ANC and he was assisting the Transkeian Police in combating the activities of the ANC in Transkei, that you also don't know?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I don't know that too.

MR DUKADA: Despite the fact that you were in the underground unit specially established to deal with ANC, you don't know that these three were co-operating with Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I did not know those three and  it was the first time for me to meet them.