Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-17

MR VISSER IN FURTHER ARGUMENT: Mr Chairman, if I may be allowed to reply very briefly.  Firstly Mr Chairman, to the suggestion which has now been made regarding the suggestion which you placed on the table Mr Chairman, of some method or means by which the people should be contacted, etc.
	Mr Chairman, we have discussed that and we have various problems with that situation.  It would appear Mr Chairman, that the proper way of doing that, if it was of concern to the community that perpetrators are not being prosecuted, is that you, this Committee refer this to the ... (tape ends) ... and let the matter be taken from there.
	Certainly it is not a matter which we believe the Committee should attempt to finalise.  Mr Chairman, as far as the submissions of my learned friend, Mr Ngubane is concerned, his submission as we understand it, is based on an equalisation as it were, of implicated persons, and informers.
	Mr Chairman, we simply submit that there is no basis in law for making that assumption and that equalisation, certainly none of the authorities do so and in point of fact Mr Chairman, very specifically when reference is made to protection of informers, implicated persons has never been mentioned, nor is it mentioned in the same breath in the TRC Act.
	My learned friend says Mr Chairman, he throws the argument in reverse and says the TRC Act does not provide for an exception in regard to informers, but we know on an interpretation of statutes Mr Chairman, that if the legislature wishes to make inroads in the common law and or change the common law, it has to say so explicitly so that there can be no mistake about that and that situation does not arise.
	That Mr Chairman, takes care of my learned friend, Mr Ngubane.  As far as Mr Prior's evidence, my learned friend, Mr Prior's submissions are concerned Mr Chairman, he submits that these informers are not informers in the true sense of the word and we submit that in doing so, he has telescoped into this one particular incident, and this one particular incident alone.  Surely one has to have regard to the fact that these informers may have been people who might have given information over a lengthy period of time.
	Which brings me back to my main argument Mr Chairman, and that is that you cannot change the protection in public interest, merely because an informer also becomes a co-perpetrator, and that would make good sense Mr Chairman.
	Lastly Mr Chairman, just a remark which was made by you to Mr Ngubane, regarding askaris.  An askari per definition of our past, was a person who had previously been a member or supporter of the ANC or another liberation movement, who had been turned to use that expression and who was applied overtly in order to identify members of MK and the ANC for purposes of identification so that the police could act on that information.
	There is no evidence whatsoever that the two informers in question, today, were ever askaris Mr Chairman, and for so far as that, the word askari may lead to an inference that they weren't true informers Mr Chairman, we say that that would be a finding not found on the evidence before the Committee at the present time.
	We therefore Mr Chairman, persist with our request to you and we say that with respect, questions in this regard ought to be disallowed, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You have said several times may have been, might have happened, that is precisely why we feel further enquiries should be made and these people should be notified and be given an opportunity to make representations.  We have not got that information before us at the present time.  We know that Colonel Botha called them informers.
	That may have been the word he used, he gave us no evidence about prior protracted dealings with them or anything of that nature.  Couldn't you tell me where these people are, I don't want names?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I make it quite clear, I have asked Mr Botha and Mr Du Preez no questions about who they are, where they are, what they have done at all.  I simply just don't want this on my conscience Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, the Committee feel that this is important that they should be told that they may be implicated and told what the nature of the evidence is that is been lead and then be given the opportunity through a legal advisor, to make what representations if any, they wish to make.
	If any of the other persons, any of those of you who have argued, wish anything else to be raised with them, could then notify me and I will ask so for that purpose, I would also request that I be given the name and address of these persons.  It will not be put into the record of the organisation, where it will be accessible to others at the present time, it will remain entirely confidential and the idea is we should engage, if it is in Natal, I would suggest Mr Lister who happens to be here today, who is no longer - who has resigned from the TRC, but if you have objections to that, which your attorney appears to have, we could engage some other member of the local bar, and they would report directly to the Committee.
	Other parties would be notified, but not of the names, or nothing that would reveal their identities until a decision has been reached.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may we perhaps just be allowed to kick ideas around this a little bit longer?

CHAIRPERSON: Should we adjourn and do it, we don't necessarily want to do it?

MR VISSER: I was just going to make one further proposition, put one further proposition Mr Chairman, we clearly all realise the seriousness of the matter.
	One wonders Mr Chairman, from a point of view that some publication has already taken place about the applications which are presently proceeding before you.  If these people, and I am certainly, I am prepared to ask Mr Botha and Mr Du Preez that, whether they are still in the country, but the point is, if they are here, clearly Mr Chairman, they would know about the fact first of all that these amnesty applications are in progress and one would have thought that if they wanted to do anything, they might have stepped forward.
	As far as that is concerned, wouldn't it be as a first step at least, advisable to place through the newspaper media Mr Chairman, advertisements calling on those who were informers in this incident, if they wished to step forward and to contact the Chairman of this Committee?

CHAIRPERSON: If we have their names and addresses, why go through the newspaper Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: As it pleases you Mr Chairman, but perhaps we should discuss this a little more.

CHAIRPERSON: We will have a short adjournment, and you can discuss it.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS