Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-17

CHAIRPERSON: What are we dealing with now?

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, we are dealing with the Quarry Road incident and the applicants are Mr Steyn, Wasserman and Botha all of which are Mr Wagener's applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Webster, who do you appear on behalf of?

MR WEBSTER: Mr Chairman and members of the Committee, I appear on behalf of three families.

CHAIRPERSON: There are four deceased as I understand.

MR WEBSTER: There were four deceased, Mr Chairman.  Unfortunately I have not consulted nor been instructed by the family of the deceased, Zondi.  I have spoken to his wife but I have not formally received instructions from that family.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.  There are times when we may have to work under pressure.  There are times we don't have all the documents in time.  That happens to us as well on the Committee.  Documents arrive sometimes in the middle of hearings and somehow we have to try and cope with the difficulties.  When genuine difficulties arise and time is required for counsel to prepare we certainly will do that, we'll take that into account.  Mr Visser, will you make a beginning please?

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, this incident is generally referred to as the Quarry Road Incident.  It took place in Quarry Road apparently, Mr Chairman and it involves the deaths of four persons, Blessing Mabaso, Thabani Mamela, Percival Ngobozi and ...(indistinct) Mbongeni Zondi on the 7th of September 1986.  Mr Chairman, we appear for General Steyn and Mr Botha and Mr Wasserman.  May we ask whether the document "Algemene agtergrond" which is Exhibit A in the cycle before you may remain Exhibit A, Mr Chairman and that we forwarded to you, because of lack of information contained in the original amnesty applications, statements of the evidence of the three applicants some two weeks ago.  I trust that it has reached you.

CHAIRPERSON: They have, yes.

MR VISSER: We will start with Mr Mathys Cornelius Botha and his document will then be Exhibit B, if it pleases you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Just let me get hold of that.

MR VISSER: Mathys Cornelius Botha.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: He is available Mr Chairman and he is ready to take the oath.  Oh, Mr Chairman, a note has just been passed to me that the technician wants to just change some of the apparatus.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, let him do so.

MR VISSER: Mr Botha is available, he has no objection to take the oath and he would prefer to give his evidence in Afrikaans.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Mr Botha are you still a member of the police?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: When did you retire?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: In 1997.

MR VISSER: And with which rank?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: The rank of Director.

MR VISSER: Have you studied Exhibit A and did you read it carefully?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Is there anything in Exhibit A with which you cannot associate yourself with?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Do you then request that the contents of Exhibit A be incorporated in your evidence as well as the documentation which is referred to in Exhibit A?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You have given evidence previously before an Amnesty Committee, is that correct?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And that was regard to the Cry Freedom bomb explosions?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: In the current incident there was an incident of a shooting which took place in which you were involved, is that correct?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Will you, from page 2 - or before you continue, that was in 1986, is that correct?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: What was your position then, Mr Botha?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: In 1986 I was a major in the South African Police.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just disturb you?  He's described himself as a director, he retired as a director in 1987.  Was that his full title, director, or was that just part of the title?

MR VISSER: Yes, that was the old Brigadier Mr Chairman and had been changed to the British format of Inspectors and Directors, Chief Constables and whatever.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: It was the equivalent of a Brigadier, Mr Chairman.  Now in 1986 who was your immediate Commander?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: It was Gen Steyn.

MR VISSER: And to which division were you attached?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I was the Chief of Explosives for Natal.  Inspector of explosive materials as well as a field worker with the collection of information.

MR VISSER: For what purpose?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: To obtain information with regard to any offenses, political offenses, terrorism, explosions.

MR VISSER: Very well.  Would you please inform the Committee, your application is embodied in the Quarry Road bundle, page 32 to 41 and if one would page to page 38 and 39, where you refer to this incident, we shall find that you as in the case of Mr du Preez and Wasserman in the previous instance, had said that the facts with regard to this incident were vague and because of the non-availability of case dossiers and any other relevant documents, you had recalled that persons were killed who were on their way to attack a target and that you would undertake further research to obtain full particulars and to submit this to the Committee during the hearing.  Is that correct?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Will you please address the Committee from paragraph 1?

CHAIRPERSON: What are you dealing with?  Paragraph 1 on what page?

MR VISSER: At page 2 of Exhibit B, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: During the completion of the amnesty application by myself,

MR VISSER: You may go a little faster.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: W/O Wasserman and Gen Steyn, we were not certain of the facts and the course of the events of this incident.  The problem was mentioned to my attorney, Mr Wagener whose advice was that we should say nothing about the facts. Rather than making a statement which could be incorrect, the idea was that we should all go and do some research in order to determine what the correct facts were.  We had discussion amongst others with each other and we believed that the facts as they are set out here, would be substantially correct.

MR VISSER: What do you recall now from that incident?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Please continue.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: During August 1986 an incident took place where a spouse of an IFP council member was killed and three of his children were injured in an attack with AK47 assault weapons and hand grenades.

MR VISSER: Now you refer to the further submissions by the ANC on page 89.  There's a cryptic entry here that says 22nd August 1986, personnel actively assisting SAP: Natal.  It says
"Grenade attack on Inkatha's Winnington Sabelo, AK47 fired at car of his wife as she entered the driveway, killing her and injuring three children."

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  So the gentleman concerned, or rather the party concerned was the wife of the late Winnington Sabelo?

MR VISSER: That's correct Mr Chairman, yes.  Yes, that is one of the incidents admitted to by the ANC, Mr Chairperson.  Please continue.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: A while thereafter I was informed by one of my sources that a certain Thabani Brian Mamela and his group were responsible for the attack.

MR VISSER: Now this Brian or Thabani Mamela, was this one of the persons who became a victim in the Quarry Road Incident?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Very well.