Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-23

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I described the incident to them.  I told them that we arrived at Botshabelo where we were helping Mr Motsamai to arrest the person he alleged that killed his informer and that man was arrested on that day.

ADV MEMANI: Didn't they ask you how it came about that Motsamai started shooting?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I don't remember if they did ask they asked.  I do not know the contents of my statement but if that is so I must of told them that he shot because this man was running away.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Lesale, did you - are you sure in your mind that it is Motsamai only who shot?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct Sir.

ADV MEMANI: My instructions are that several people shot.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I do not know that.

ADV MEMANI: And you'll not dispute that several people shot?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I do not know about other people who shot.  I saw Mr Motsamai shooting.

ADV MEMANI: How many times did he shoot?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I explained that it was several times, I do not know how many times.

ADV MEMANI: And where were you as he was shooting?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I remained behind the Kombi.  I got out of the Kombi and stood outside.

ADV MEMANI: And where was Oupa when Motsamai was shooting at him?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Sir, he was running next to the fences in the street.  I last saw getting into the houses, but I saw them coming back with him later.

ADV MEMANI: Now, did they catch him in the same street that he was running in when you first saw him?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I don't know whether they caught him in the yards or in the next street I do not know, I just saw them appearing with him.

ADV MEMANI: So at some stage they were out of your sight.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: So you cannot say that the others did not shoot?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct, I told you about the person I saw shooting, I won't say anything about the others.

ADV MEMANI: And the others were also chasing, isn't it?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And anyone who said that the person who shot first was sitting on the right hand side is definitely wrong?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Can you please repeat that question, I do not understand it clearly.

ADV MEMANI: Any person who says that the person who started shooting was sitting on the right hand side of the Kombi is definitely wrong?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct.  Nobody shot whilst we were inside the car, I never saw a person shooting from inside the Kombi.

ADV MEMANI: And yet that is what was put to witnesses, I think to the applicant himself.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Who is the applicant Sir?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Motsamai.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I do not know it that way Sir.

UNKNOWN: Can we perhaps be referred to the passage that my learned relying upon Mr Chairman.  The incident is described in cross-examination at page 1003 and onwards in the record.  I'm not disputing it, I would just like to know where the passage is.

ADV MEMANI: Now, Mr Chairman, if he's not disputing it, why must we look at the record and be interrupted, I mean if he's not disputing it, we don't have any reason then to be looking at the record.

CHAIRPERSON: He's not disputing as I understand because he hasn't checked the record that it is not there.  But he does not recollect it, so he wants you to tell him if it is because he may dispute it.

ADV MEMANI: I'm not relying on the record for this, I'm relying on my recollection of the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you now putting something to the witness that you say you remember having been said in the evidence about three months ago.

ADV MEMANI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you're not relying, you haven't checked it in the record?  Well I think you should be very careful, Mr Mamome and specifically putting to a witness that it was something was said if you are merely relying on your memory of months ago.

ADV MEMANI: That I will do Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, page 1005 appears to be the portion upon which this evidence is based, it appears that Mr Motsamai gave that evidence.
	Mr Chairman, I place it on record that up to page 1009 I certainly never put what has just been put to this witness to Mr Motsamai.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman I withdraw the question as I put it.  Now, when Mr Motsamai started shooting did anyone stop Motsamai from shooting?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: No Sir.

ADV MEMANI: Did any of you thereafter ask him why he was shooting at Oupa?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: No Sir I don't know, I didn't hear that.

ADV MEMANI: And was Motsamai acting correctly by shooting at Oupa at that stage?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Hi's feelings told him that he took the right step.

ADV MEMANI: When you observed, was it the right thing to do for Motsamai to shoot at Oupa?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: You asking me a different question.  I would not respond on behalf of his feelings.

ADV MEMANI: I'm saying that you are a policeman and there is Motsamai starting to shoot a civilian, when you looked at him did you see he was acting properly as a policeman at the stage?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: He knew Oupa and if it was myself in his position I would not shoot at him because I would know where to find him.

ADV MEMANI: Now why didn't you say: "Stop don't shoot this man, we'll catch him later"?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Who am I to run after Motsamai shouting: "Stop shooting, stop shooting".  It was even my first to hear of Oupa and I saw him when I brought him back to the car.  Who am I really to run after Motsamai to tell him not to shoot?

ADV MEMANI: Do you know any reason why no charges of attempted murder were led against Motsamai?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: What case are you talking about Sir?

ADV MEMANI: I am saying to you, do you know if any - why charges of attempted murder were not laid against Motsamai?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Not according to my knowledge, I do not know.

ADV MEMANI: May I ask, what channel is Sotho on, because I don't think that the interpretation is correct.  On what channel is Sotho?

INTERPRETER: Chairperson the Sotho is on channel 3.

ADV MEMANI: Now I was saying do you know why there was no charge of attempted murder laid against Motsamai?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I do not know Sir.

ADV MEMANI: The answer is ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Was a charge of murder laid against Oupa?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: If I remember very well, it looks like he was charged for the murder of Motsamai's informer.  I do not remember well.

CHAIRPERSON: And these shots were fired while he was trying to escape arrest running away from Motsamai?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I do not know whether Oupa laid charges, I do not know.

ADV DE JAGER: But that's not an answer on
what was asked from you, Listen to the question.  Have you heard the Chairperson's question?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Let the Chairperson repeat.

ADV MEMANI: These shots were fired by Motsamai at somebody who was apparently seeking to escape from being arrested on the charge of murder.  He was running away when he saw the police, Is that the position?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Motsamai shot at Oupa while Oupa was running away, because when the Kombi stopped, he ran then he got out of the car, while Oupa was running he shot at him.

ADV MEMANI: And do you know why Motsamai was not subjected to any disciplinary for this incident?

CHAIRPERSON: Can a junior police officer possibly answer that question, isn't that a decision taken at a higher ranking officers?  This decision to prosecute is taken by the Attorney General isn't it?

ADV MEMANI: Well Chairperson it's possible for a person to answer the question and say: "I know this is the reason or I do not know".  What I can't put to him is that he should have known.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I do not know why Motsamai was not charged,  he would be in a position to tell.