Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-17

MR PRIOR: Good morning.  Mr Chairman, on the 17th of April 1998, the applications of Mr Kulman and Thutha proceeds, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we start today, I would draw Mr Botma's attention to the fact that this is not a trial, we are hearing the applicant's application for amnesty here, and the Committee has the right to limit cross-examination.
	We permitted you to cross-examine at great length yesterday, which I understand this is your first appearance at an application, and also because you had undoubtedly greater knowledge of the events than lawyers normally do, in that you appeared in the trial, but I would ask you today please remember, that this is not a trial, and to limit your cross-examination.

MR BOTMA: As you please Mr Chairman.

LUVUYO KULMAN: (still under oath)

MR BOTMA: (cont)
	Mr Kulman, at the time you took Donnie Meyers from the truck, do you know that Thandekulo was about to go to execute her or to kill her, did you know that at that stage?

LUVUYO KULMAN: No, I did not know.

MR BOTHMA: So what did you believe was he going to do with her?

LUVUYO KULMAN: As Thandekulo and I had already spoken that that was going to be our rendezvous, that was where I was going to give him our report, and I was going to hand over Meyers at that very place, I don't know what Thandekulo thought, I just carried out my part in the mission.

CHAIRPERSON: But you know that when you got there with her, he said something to the effect that she is useless, she was not the person you were to kidnap, what did you think he was going to do to her?

LUVUYO KULMAN: That was up to Thandekulo, I can't think for him.

CHAIRPERSON: You were asked to think for yourself, the question was what did you think he was going to do.

LUVUYO KULMAN: It could happen that he would kill her, I thought.

MR BOTHMA: And after the shots, you realised that he did in fact kill her?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes.

MR BOTHMA: And did you reconcile yourself with that, what he had done there?

MR LAX: Sorry, we have missed the whole interpretation until you said the word "part", I think the switch hadn't been put on, so if you can just please repeat.

INTERPRETER: Could the applicant then repeat the answer please?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Indirectly I was part of the operation, because I brought Donnie to the area.

MR LAX: Are you saying you did reconcile yourself with that?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes, as we were in a war, it was part and parcel of the war.  We were taught  not to feel ashamed of our actions.  In war we are taught not to feel ashamed of our actions, it was part of the war.
	Somebody did pass away, I am also a human being, but there was no alternative.  There was no alternative at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you say that?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Because there was no alternative, APLA waged war against the Boers, the oppressors.

MR LAX: You could have dropped her at a hospital, she didn't know you, she would never be able to identify you, you could have left her there?  There was no need to kill her, she wasn't resisting you in any way.

LUVUYO KULMAN: As I already said, APLA recognised whites as oppressors.  What happened was part of the war that APLA had waged.  We did not have time to take her to the hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying it was APLA policy to indiscriminately kill whites, whoever they might be?

LUVUYO KULMAN: It was the policy of APLA to kill white people who were oppressors.  Every white person who were recognised as an oppressor, because they all benefitted from the crime, from the privileges that the whites got, that we as Africans, could not get.
	We then recognised her as having ...

CHAIRPERSON: As we told you yesterday, will you please answer the questions, and not make long speeches each time you are asked a question.  Carry on.

MR BOTHMA: You would have killed Mike Meyers, even if he was not a member of the AWB is that correct?

LUVUYO KULMAN: That is correct.

MR BOTHMA: If you received instructions to kill Donnie, you would have killed her just because she was white, is that correct?

LUVUYO KULMAN: We were going to kill her not because she was white, but because she supported the system that we were fighting, not because she was merely white.
	It was not about her white skin, we were killing her because she was part of the system that we were fighting against.

UNKNOWN: Mr Kulman, you see, my problem with what you are saying now is, you told us yesterday that your specific instructions were to repossess and only to kill Mike Meyers if he resisted.  You are now talking about killing them any way, can you just reconcile that for me so that I know exactly what you were doing, and in terms of which instructions you were acting?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, just before the applicant answers, I  think the question was that in any way, even if he was not a member of AWB, he would have killed him, and he said yes.  So, which means it was another leg, not necessarily with regard to an instruction, that even if he was instructed to kill him, even if he was not a member of AWB and also applies to the daughter.

UNKNOWN: With all due respect Mr Mbandazayo, that is an explanation I would like to hear from Mr Kulman himself, who is the person who got the orders, who knew exactly why he was doing what he did at that time, and I want to relate the same example, not only to Mr Meyers, but to Donnie as well, because as I understood the question relating to Donnie, she would have been killed, even if she had not resisted.
	I would just like him to reconcile the order which I understood to be if there is resistance, kill, but your objective is one, bring us the truck and whatever you find inside, and two bring us Mike Meyers, because we want to talk to that man.
	If I am wrong Mr Kulman, please, just help me understand exactly how you reconcile these two positions?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Could you elaborate on your question Ma'am, please?

UNKNOWN: What don't you understand?

LUVUYO KULMAN: You say that the statement that you have and what I am saying, do not correspond.

UNKNOWN: No, Boetie, there is no statement that I have.  I am simply recalling what you said to us yesterday, and I will say this slowly and you correct me if I've got it wrong.
	Your order was to take the truck and get Mike Meyers to Thandekulo and only to kill him, if he resisted.  I've got that right?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Correct.

UNKNOWN: What actually happened was that both Mike Meyers and Donnie were killed?  Yes?

LUVUYO KULMAN: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: The question from the Advocate for the family as I understood it, was this, the first one was you would have killed Mike Meyers even if he was not a member of the AWB, in terms of your general APLA policy and your answer was yes?

LUVUYO KULMAN: That is correct, yes.

UNKNOWN: And then in relation to Donnie Meyers, you would have killed her, even if she had not resisted, again in relation to the general APLA policy and your answer again was yes, did I get that right?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes, that is so.

UNKNOWN: Now, all I am asking you to reconcile for me is the fact of the killing of these two people.  Were you acting in terms of your order or in terms of APLA policy?
	You know, for me, I am now confused about why they were killed, was it because you were ordered to do so or because it fell broadly within APLA policy to kill them any way?  Are you all right with my question?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes, I understand your question.  The order that we got was to kidnap Mike, but it happened as we were going to kidnap Mike he moved a certain way, it is that movement that made me shoot at him.
	This is how my operation went.

UNKNOWN: Where does the APLA policy of killing whites because they are oppressors, come into this?  Where does it fit into this if at all?