Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-23

UNKNOWN: You're asking there at jail?  Yes, they harassed me at home, they harassed me in jail, even as I was talking to them, I was talking anyhow, they didn't actually manhandled me, they abused me and then we were just saying anything to one another, then we buried.
 But sill it continued that they kept on harassing us.  It was all quiet about my son until one day we heard that we had to go to court, so we went there and there was a lawyer, unknown to us, who took a statement down.
 Then they said we should wait.  We waited for a lengthy period and once more, we were invited to go to court.

REV XUNDU: Who was actually charged there?  Who went into the witness box?

UNKNOWN: Who was, all these three were laid a charge against.  Then there was a trial for about two days and on the second day, which was the last day, nothing was said to us.
 Then the Magistrate just did something that we could not understand together with the policemen.  It was just up and down and then it was just the end.

REV XUNDU: Mama, if you have any request, could you please tell us or tell us what you would like this Commission to do for you.

UNKNOWN: What is most important to me is that I did not know about the death of my son, so I am asking this Commission to bring forward the killers of my son, even Els himself because he was the organiser of the killers and the
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leader too.
 Els had two problems.  At the time Els was organising to kill, the wife was the Prosecutor, so there was nothing that could be done because the wife was busy prosecuting on the other hand, whilst Els was killing.
 So that is the main problem I have.

REV XUNDU: Now, you say the wife to Els was employed as a Prosecutor?

UNKNOWN: She is still a Prosecutor from that time, in fact, she even got promoted together with her husband, Els, they have been promoted.  They are big people, occupying high positions.

REV XUNDU: So you are asking this Commission to help you in that way?  Did you son have any children?

UNKNOWN: No, he did not, he was not even married.  He was not even initiated, he used to work in Johannesburg and then he met all these problems and then he became unemployed and then there were these uprisings and he was then arrested and he was in all this problems.
 What actually happened which is most important is that the killer of my children should be brought forward.  In fact they should come forward.  Even the Government there in Molteno is still the same because there is nothing that is satisfying.  Even now that there is the GNU, there is no protection there whatsoever.
 I just see the sun setting, because I am under bondage, even one of my children who is a soldier, is not protected, because he always needs to be escorted by his brother, because people are watching.
 These people who are rulers are watching my son.  Even then I did not go to the police to go and report, but I have
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reported this matter to the communities and the organisations, even the mayor, I've made him aware about this matter.   Even the White woman who is employing me, I have informed her about this - that it is still like that even during this regime of the Government of National Unity.
 So one time when one came, I said go out.  My son is a soldier but he is still being harassed.  He  once went on exile because they wanted to kill him, because they had killed his brother.

REV XUNDU: Now I want to know from your companions here whether they have anything more to say?

UNKNOWN: On the fifth day in 1990, we were playing ball near the shops.  While we were playing, Skwenkwe passed.  A little boy came running passed us, we didn't pay any attention because he was someone who would be silly when he was drunk.
 And after a little while he came back, Skwenkwe Baqela and Badansile Stofile and Lumkile Leluqa.  When they were going to come past where we were playing, the deceased approached from the opposite direction.
 He had on this cap with three colours and an overall and when he wasn't too far from them, he took off his cap and raised his hands in surrender.
 And when they weren't too far from him approximately where your table is, they said oh, here is this dog.  We are not happy because of him here in the location.
 And after that the shots started and  we decided to stand very still where we were and just peep, myself, Senwabo and Pele.
 After they had shot him, when he fell face forward, Badansile, this other policeman that had since committed 
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suicide, shoved him with the gun and Skwenkwe went to buy a litre of Coke and they then drank this cold drink and Els and Fourie and them came and picked up the pellets and when they picked him up, they picked him up by the overall he was wearing and the two Black policeman grabbed him by his feet and they threw him in the police van.
 I just forgot that, before they took him, his father came around the corner and when he came, they pointed at him with their firearms and told him to go otherwise they would shoot him too.
 And the police warned him not to go there, because they were going to shoot him.

REV XUNDU: These guys are they from Molteno, Lumkile and Skwenkwe and these guys?

UNKNOWN: Yes, they are all from Molteno.

REV XUNDU: Are they still there?

UNKNOWN: No, Dan is someone that when he was arrested, committed suicide, he hung himself.  Skwenkwe works on the farms, I don't know how he stopped being a policeman, but he comes there from time to time and Lumkile, after the incident, we see him, he stopped carrying a big gun, he has a little 9 mm, because we were wondering why he had to carry such a big gun - someone as uneducated as he was.
 I lived fine, yes.

REV XUNDU: What do you mean?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

REV XUNDU: Was your life not miserable thereafter?

UNKNOWN: What happened is, after they saw that we were the witnesses in court, even after the case was withdrawn, they would come to us and say yes, these dogs thought that they were going to get something because they were helping the
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big comrade in Molteno and thinking that they would gain from that and we thought we'd rather keep quiet, because we do not have the same weapons that these people do.
 And even if we did try taking it to their Commander who was Fourie, because Els was just a Sergeant, he was promoted and he would tell us that this is no place you get drunk.

REV XUNDU: Do you work or are you at school?

UNKNOWN: I completed my schooling in 1993.

REV XUNDU: Let me ask the lady.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: This is my brother, I am the third child after him.  What I want from the Commission, is that I will never have peace, I will never forgive, because an innocent person was killed and beyond that, there was nothing, there are no reason for people with guns to shoot somebody that was unarmed.
 What I want is that the perpetrators be brought forward and when the trial was being conducted, there were documents and there were exhibits in court showing that this person only had a cap in his possession and he did not have any weapon on him, which made it clear that there was a  plot prior to that, to kill him, so I want the perpetrators to be brought to book because I will never forgive them.  I have got absolutely no forgiveness, although I do not see revenge, all I know is that I will never forgive them in all my life.
 All I want this Commission to do is to come forward, bring these perpetrators forward and say how they could kill somebody that was unarmed.  Thank you.