Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-02

CHAIRPERSON: Before it's repeated I'm asking Mr Shane, are you quite sure what answer you're going to get.

MR SHANE: Sir we have discussed it.  It would have been, it would be of a general nature, general defence, but we've actually dealt with that, the possession of the weapons, everything relates to these acts.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, if you get an answer for which application for amnesty has not been made, or cannot some way be covered by what has been submitted, then we can't deal with it.  And I may as well add that I think you sufficiently dealt with the generality of his status as commander of that unit.

MR SHANE: Thank you sir.  Have you got anything that you wish to say to the families of both deceaseds', Stephen and Beki?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Yes.  What I can say is this.  Because of the apartheid regime in those times we were led to fight as black people.  We killed ourselves, whereas there were other people who had infiltrated the black communities, 'though we are not sure whether there was third force involved or something else, but I hope now during this new dispensation people will not be used to kill their own people.  I would like to apologise to the parents of the two gentlemen where, of which I was involved in the killings.  I apologise.  I also want to apologise to the committee that is here, but I was forced to do whatever, because of the situation, and my parents also died and I don't know their killers but I knew very well that the Inkatha people have killed them.  I was forced, it's not that I was taken by anger to the Khanyile families and the others, the apology is coming from the bottom of my heart.  I hope this will never happen again, 'though I knew very well that the elections are coming because all this happened just after Chris Hani's death and just before the elections.  But I hope such things will never happen again.  I'll try to avoid such things as the former commander if I see that there are some attacks that are imminent.  If Beki's family is here I would like to apologise 'though I fail to go to their house and apologise.  I did not know what their response would be.  I want to apologise again and I hope that even the Truth Commission would forward my request to the family of Stephen and Beki.
My request is this, I don't know what to say at the moment, but the major thing is I would like to be granted amnesty as a person who confessed.  
	I know that no-one knew what happened except the members of the SDU.  No-one knew that we killed Stephen.  We used to cover up for one another and knew very well that even the Commission, the Committee and the police wouldn't know about that incident because we used to cover up for one another.  I would like to be granted amnesty because that was not my intention to be involved in that war, but I was trying to protect the community that I loved so much.  I apologise deeply.  Thank you.

MR SHANE: That is the evidence, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Sir, my question to you is, did you discuss the questioning and the possible killing, of both Mr Radebe and Mr Khanyile, with any of the political leadership before they were killed?  The people you mentioned.  Please like Mr Duma Nkosi, Louis Sibeko, Mr Sieyephe, Ms Ngubu, Mr Mbatha.  Do you understand the question?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Yes, I understand the question.  We did not discuss that.  I want to explain this clearly.  We used to meet with de Marcos and the others for development and get advise from them so that we can get guidelines as to use.  They were not that much involved in killing, because if they were there they would try and stop us.  We did not discuss that matter.  According to the plan, Beki was going to be killed, whether he was questioned or not, but he was going to be killed.  But because of the situation I just decided that Beki should be questioned.  If I, he was going to be killed without any interview, but I decided that this is a good thing to question him and he also gave us his views, he told us about his views, and he apologised.  I'm not sure if you are satisfied about, I'm not sure if you are satisfied with that answer.

ADV STEENKAMP: My question basically is, are you then saying that none of these people were aware, whatsoever, about the decision you took, am I right?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Yes, they knew nothing.  There is what is called a sectional command that was under our leadership.  We used to meet on Tuesdays to report the problems that we are experiencing.  Not about the people who are to be attacked or the people who are to be killed or informers.  In other words the central command knew nothing about that 'cause central command wouldn't issue orders to kill people.  They wouldn't issue such orders.  They were just there to maintain the SDU's to make the point that everything is in order.  People like de Marcos were in the ANC and other people were in ASACP and the ANC youth league.  All the shareholders would be present in the meeting just to handle the SDU's to make it a point that they were disciplined and they were in line with the objectives.  In the central command we were to discuss about how to handle the criminals, because we had problems that were brought by the criminals, so we wanted to removed them from the communities and SDU's.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you just indicate to us, who were the people you sent to fetch Mr Radebe and Mr Khanyile, for the questioning?  Can you tell us who these people were?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: There were more than 20 or 25.  I can try and count the others ...(indistinct).

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Mabaso, Beki and Stephen, where did you find them, in relation to where they lived.  You can deal with one and then with the other one.

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: I was not present when they were first, I don't know where were they, but I'm sure that they were not at the same place because the first one to be first was Beki and the second one was Stephen.  I was not there in the group of people who went to get them.  But as the commander I used to issue orders.  I don't know where they were first but all I know is there was first somewhere and they were brought to the office.

ADV GCABASHE: Where were you expecting them to be found, when you gave that order?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: I had some information that Beki Khanyile as at Xhaba Street.  We went to Txhaba for the first time, he wasn't there.  I issued another order in December, a month after the first visit, and I told the other comrades that we have to keep quiet, keep a low profile, so that he doesn't suspect anything.  We waited for a month, I think it was December when he was fetched for the second time.  He was visited for the second time.

MR SHANE: Excuse me Mr Chairman, I've a request from the applicant the call of nature.  He asks for a short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: (s.u.o.)

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman there was, I think learned ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is your client okay now?

MR SHANE: He's fine thank you sir.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.  Thank you Chair.  We were talking about Beki and Stephen, and you had indicated in your testimony that they were killed on the same day.  Who was fetched or brought to you first, is one question?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Beki Khanyile was the first one.

ADV GCABASHE: Then Beki was killed.  Stephen was brought on the same day at a later time.  Is this what your evidence is?

VICTOR WANDA MUCHACHO MABASO: Yes, that took place after 20 to 30 minutes, Stephen was fetched.

ADV GCABASHE: Was he fetched by the same group of SDU members, the same group that had fetched Beki?