Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: No, it's his second year in grade two.

MR MILLER: Did he fail the first time?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: He passed but his teacher requested that he repeats the standard because he was not performing very well, since he is a slow learner.

MR MILLER: And otherwise is he able to cope with the every day aspects of life, like if you ask him to pour you a glass of water or do something?

MR NTSEBEZA: With respect, Mr Miller, do you think you can take this point any further?

MR MILLER: I will leave that there, Mr Chairman.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you.

MR MILLER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems lawyers understand lawyers.  I was speaking theological English. - (general laughter).  Is there any other....

MR CROSS: My surname is (...indistinct) A J. I represent Mr Richardson.  Madam when you describe boys were responsible for your assault, do you know who they were?  Do you know their identities?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: I know some of them, but some I know their names and some I don't know their names.  I just know them from seeing them.

MR CROSS: Can you give us the names that you do know?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Hansie Matewu, that I know.  The others I do not know and others had a Natal accent as they spoke their Zulu.

MR CROSS: Are those the only ones that you can remember?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes.

MR CROSS: After the five hours you say that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's daughter, Zinzi, intervened on your behalf, is that correct?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: That is true.

MR CROSS: Now you say that Jerry and Morgan, John Morgan, were responsible for taking you home, did they participate in the assault?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: No, they did not even touch me.  They took me back home.

MR CROSS: No further questions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Semenya.

MR SEMENYA: Ma'am, I understand from you that the reason according to your story you were assaulted was because of your relationship with Shakes.

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR SEMENYA: And Shakes had said to you that he had a relationship with Mrs Mandela.

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SEMENYA: What is of profound difficulty, at least in my mind, is even today we don't have a statement of Shakes that says that, can you explain it?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: I don't know where Shakes stays.

MR SEMENYA: (...indistinct) has never managed to get Shakes to confirm this relationship that caused you the hardship?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: I wouldn't know.

MR SEMENYA: In 1997, November, have you ever made a statement to the police about your assault?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: No, I did not.

MR SEMENYA: Even up to the 24th of November 1997 you have never went to the police to report and complain about the assault?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: No, I was scared.

MR SEMENYA: Why were you afraid yesterday to go to the police and report that you were assaulted by Mrs Mandela?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: I was scared because our house was going to be burnt and we weren't going to have a place to stay.

MR SEMENYA: We know that you had lawyers, when you were speaking to them why didn't you tell them you are desirous of laying an assault complaint against Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: I am just going to tell them.

MR SOLLER: Mr Commissioner, can we both place on record that this lady received legal representation for the first time last Friday, that's the previous Friday.

CHAIRPERSON: Just switch on your microphone, please.

MR SOLLER: Is it on now, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: There should be a red light.

MR SOLLER: But there isn't a red light but I believe it is on.

INTERPRETER: Yes, it is on.

MR SOLLER: Mr Chairman, this lady was only advised on Friday, this past weekend, that she would be receiving legal advice.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  I want to find out where you are leading because again, you see, I am seeking to remind you that your brief is to question matters of fact and I mean you are allowed to put your client's point of view and let us, as the Commission, then decide which of the versions is the one that is going to be - because what you are doing and I don't blame you, this is your training, but this is not - it isn't in fact a court of law.

MR SEMENYA: I take the admonishment, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, no, no, it's just gentle advice.

MR SEMENYA: My instructions, Chairperson, are that the witness is narrating a figment of imagination.  Now to lend credence to those instructions we need to point out that she did not act consistent with her complaint throughout the period of five odd years.  But I will not take that aspect any further.

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: This is not a figment of my imagination.  Winnie Mandela knows the inside of my house because that is where she took me and she knows deep down inside of her that I am not telling any lies.  Why would I tell lies about her?  Lindiwe was there, if only Lindiwe was still alive I think she would be saying the same thing that I am saying today.

MR SEMENYA: You see Zinzi is present in the hearing. Do you see that Zinzi is present in the hearing?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes, I can see her.

MR SEMENYA: She denies that she ever intervened in an assault that was taking place that you mention.

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: She denies it She knows it very well that she did come, she intervened.  I don't know why she is denying it because she did - she even said I should go wash my face.

MR SEMENYA: Ma'am, did you suffer from a heart condition?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes, I do suffer from a heart condition.

MR SEMENYA: Do we know medically whether it explains the difficulties your child is having?

MR SOLLER: With respect, Mr Chairperson ...(intervention)

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: No, that's not it.

MR SOLLER: Chairperson, this witness is not a medical expert, she can't possibly answer that question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think, Mr Semenya, as they say with respect if again, please if you can confine the questions, I mean you could say that this is a fact and the fact that you put is so and so and I contest that, that would help us, because again as the legal representative says we are treading in an area where she doesn't, I think, have the expertise.  I don't have.

MR SEMENYA: With a greater respect, Chairperson, I think the objection was a little misplaced.  I didn't ask the witness whether she has the medical acumen to determine the condition of the child.  I was saying through the witness that with the expense of the resources the TRC has have we since established a connection that explains the condition.  She would say to me she doesn't know.

MR NTSEBEZA: Mr Semenya, that was not the question, with
respect, and I think, if you have any basis on which you can say that this witness's heart condition is responsible for the conditions in her child, say so, and I would be very interested to know what basis you have for saying that.

MR SEMENYA: The only reason, Commissioner, I didn't put it that way is because I do not know, that is why I was asking, but let me take the questioning further.

CHAIRPERSON: When you are consulting it would be a good thing to switch it off because we might overhear you -  (general laughter)

MR SEMENYA: In a forum such as this one, Chairperson, if we are overheard we are confident it would be consistent with our innocence. (laughter)
 Ma'am let me ask you, is it your contention that the clinical condition of your child arises out of the assault?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SEMENYA: Why do you say that?

PHUMLILE MAGGIE DLAMINI: Because I do realise as a mother that the child was somehow traumatised, either physically, and it affected his mental state.