Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MR DE JAGER: next to the fire.  Now, that I don't say to show our braveness, I just tell it to the Commission to show the callousness of it and to what extremes we have gone in those days.  And a body takes about seven hours to burn to ashes completely, and the chunks of meat, especially the buttocks and the upper part of the legs, had to be turned frequently during the night to make sure that everything burned to ashes.  And the next morning, after raking through the rubble to make sure that there was no big pieces of meat or bone left at all, we departed and we all went our own way.  I can just mention maybe perhaps that I did, with the help and assistance of a Japanese team, was able to honour Mrs Khondile's tradition in picking up her son's soul, and went to the place about three months ago to point out the place to the Japanese team, where the next day they took Mrs Khondile Sizwe's mother to where she could do the necessary traditional stuff that would have helped, but at the time I didn't have the courage to look her in the face.  But after seeing her on TV, and what a beautiful person she is, and so I hope to in future meet up with her one day and look her in the eye, and the pathetic sorry all I can say, but generally one just wants to meet someone of the calibre of Mrs Khondile.

MR DE JAGER: Do you know why Mr Khondile was taken to that site in Komatipoort?

WITNESS:   I think that was Colonel Nick van Rensburg's first experience of burning a body to ashes, and because he knew the area very well, because he operated there so long, to take the car through - and the people who did eventually take later Mr Chris Hani's car through to Swaziland, and parked it in front of The Holiday Inn, is Lieutenant Chris Dieklifs again as usual,

MR DE JAGER: /of Ermelo

MR DE JAGER: of Ermelo Security Branch, and Warrant-Officer Christ Rorich, who are both now colonels still in the Security Police in Mpumalanga.

MR DE JAGER: And why were you involved by van Rensburg and the others in this incident?

WITNESS:   I would say because of the knock-out drops, and the reason why the knock-out drops was administered is because I don't think any sober guy would have had the courage there to just look a normal - look a normal person in the eyes, sober, and shoot him at point blank in the head.

MR DE JAGER: The incident as far as the poisoning and the shooting is concerned follows the same pattern in very broad terms as in the Peter and Vusi incident, is that correct?

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: Now, at the time did you know anything about the security threat that Mr - or supposed security threat that Mr Khondile posed to the people in the Eastern Cape?

WITNESS:  No, I did not have any exact details about it, Mr Chairman.

MR DE JAGER: Did you regard it as your job to evaluate that ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   Did I ... (incomplete)

MR DE JAGER: Did you regard it as your job to evaluate that, or did you ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   That was not part of my function.  It was Nick van Rensburg and his superiors' function.

MR DE JAGER: When Nick van Rensburg told you that he must get rid of Mr Khondile did you accept that, whether with your involvement or without your involvement, he would have gotten rid of Mr Khondile in any event?

WITNESS:   It would in any case would have taken place, yes.

WILSON J: Sorry, have I misunderstood you?  I understood

WILSON J: /that this

WILSON J: that this man had suffered injuries and was mentally unstable now.

WITNESS:   As I said, Mr Chairman, I could detect nothing from him looking at him as a person.  I could see nothing funny, but apparently his behaviour became peculiar in some way.  I didn't ask specific details about it, but he was able to walk, he was friendly when Nick van Rensburg greeted him in single quarters that day, and when he got out of the car at Komatipoort he was walking on his own.  He looked quite normal to me.

WILSON J: But they decided to liquidate him because of his injuries.  They didn't want another Steve Biko case.

WITNESS:  That's correct, Mr Chairman.

WILSON J: There was no question of him being a danger.

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage.

WILSON J: At that stage.

WITNESS:   Not according - as far as I know, but if they would have released him they would have had a lot of trouble.  That is what I could make out of it, Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: They had reached a so-called point of no return.

WITNESS:   I beg your pardon, Sir?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Had they reached a so-called point of no return?

WITNESS:   There was also with point of non-return, that's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The injury that affected this man, you said that you were told that he'd attempted to jump out of a window and fell on his head.  That is something you did not witness, you were merely told about that.

WITNESS:   Not at all witnessed, I was just told about it.  That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And where did you learn that he was mentally affected as a result?

WITNESS:   Well, as I said, they put it

CHAIRPERSON: /in a way

CHAIRPERSON: in a way that his behaviour became peculiar.  That's what Colonel Nick van Rensburg said, and that a doctor's friend advised them that they were going to have big trouble, the second Steve Biko case.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, I note it's 1 o'clock.  I don't know ... (incomplete)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Have you finished leading the evidence of this witness?

MR JANSEN: No, Mr Chairman, but I am literally two or three questions away from finished in chief.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Perhaps you can just finish off if it's convenient.

MR JANSEN: Yes.  Mr Coetzee, apart from being involved in a murder as such, was it common practice for people in the Security Police to either assist each other if so requested in something like this, and more particularly as far as covering up a specific crime?

WITNESS:   Yes, it was, Mr Chairman.  I think it came out quite clearly in the Motherwell case, for instance, and in the Gene de Kock trial subsequently.

MR JANSEN: So a person like - in that culture, would you have understood that a person like Colonel Nick van Rensburg, having known you previously from Ermelo, would quite easily have involved you in such an incident, and would have trusted you not to say anything and to assist to the extent that you could be of assistance?

WITNESS:   That is 100% correct, and that goes for Paul too, Mr Chairman, who worked with Major Nick van Rensburg - Paul van Dyk.  He was a warrant-officer.

MR JANSEN: And this mutual assistance and keeping each other's activities as a secret, did you regard that as part and

MR JANSEN: /parcel of

MR JANSEN: parcel of the Security Police operations and their activities against the ANC?

WITNESS:   That is absolutely part of the culture and our operations, that's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

MR JANSEN: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn now and resume at 2 o'clock.
LONG ADJOURNMENT
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: There are no questions you wish to put to your witness before cross-examination, are there?

MR JANSEN: No further questions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mshe.

MR MSHE: Mr Chairman, my learned friend would also like to put questions to the witness on behalf of the Khondile family.  The representative for the Khondile family would like to question first the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moosa, you represent the Khondile family as well?

MR MOOSA: Yes, I do, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Do you have any questions of this witness?

MR MOOSA: I do, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Will you please proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: QUESTIONED BY MR MOOSA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetzee, you've already told the Committee that you did not know Khondile the first time you heard of him at Jeffreys Bay, is that right?

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.