Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-11

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  In relation to your own questioning of this witness as regards to the congratulations he received, I just wanted to put it clearly or ask the witness clearly that as I understood the Chairperson's question, he wasn't relating - the question wasn't directed specifically at congratulations for the killings that had been described previously, i.e. those authorised by the induna, but was congratulations generally in respect of any activities and I'd like the witness to answer whether he got congratulations from anybody in relation to any - from anybody else in relation to any of the killings that were performed.

WITNESS:   I thought you were asking the question with regard to my reports that I was giving to the Captain.  That's who I understood your question.  With regards to congratulations about the work that I did, I was praised or congratulated by many other people.  Even

MR WILLS: /Prince Gideon

MR WILLS: 1B Prince Gideon Zulu himself has given me a handshake and congratulated me for the good work that I have carried.  Even Chief Mathaba as well congratulated me many times for the work I carried.  It was not only Captain Langeni.  I thought you were referring to when I was giving my report to him that he would congratulate me for the report.  That's how I understood your question.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I have no further re-examination.

MR WILLS: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Macadam.

MR MACADAM: I've got no further questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Go on to the next witness then.

MR MACADAM: I call Romeo Mbambo as the next witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mkhize.  You may be excused.

MR DE VOS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, maybe it's a suitable time to have a tea break.  I see it's quarter past eleven.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, we'll have a break for 20 minutes.  Thank you.  Try and be back at half past.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT
/
ON RESUMPTION
1B
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Williams has arrived from Johannesburg and it's convenient now to deal with his cross-examination, if any, and thereafter to go on to a new witness, Mr Mbambo.

ROCKLYN MARK WILLIAMS: (Sworn, states)

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions which counsel would like to put to Mr Williams arising out of his evidence last week?

MR MARITZ: Yes, Mr Chairman.  Maritz on the record.  I have a few questions, if I may proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Maritz.

MR MARITZ: Thank you.  Dr Williams, we have heard your evidence as to your academic qualifications and your experience.  We don't quarrel with it, but may I ask you this?  As far as the South African Defence Force and the present SANDF is concerned, in the old SADF there was a course known as, "The South African Army Senior Commanding Staff Course".  Are you aware of it?

WITNESS:   Yes, I'm very familiar with it.  I lecture on the course frequently.

MR MARITZ: You did not do that course, did you?

WITNESS:   No, I didn't.

MR MARITZ: And then I believe that in the SANDF there is a course which is called, "The Joint Staff Course"?

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR MARITZ: You haven't done that course either?

WITNESS:   No, I have not.  That's for qualification to Brigadier.

MR MARITZ: Now, my instructions are that the career officer in the old SADF, as well as the modern SANDF, is guided in his role as a career officer particularly by the content of these two courses.  Would you agree with that?

WITNESS:   Those courses and other specialist courses.

MR MARITZ: /Now, as far

MR MARITZ: 1B Now, as far as counter-insurgency or anti-terrorism tactics are concerned, you have referred to some principles or ideas expounded by McCuen.  Now, I must tell you that my instructions are that the professional officers in the officers corps since round about 1960, or the 'sixties, were taught the principles expounded by General Pops Fraser.  Would you quarrel with that?

WITNESS:   They were, they were taught - amongst others they were taught those.

MR MARITZ: And my instructions are further, Doctor, that in many respects the more radical approach of McCuen in employing terrorist mechanisms were rejected out of hand by General Fraser.  Would you agree with that?

WITNESS:   I think the approach of terror was certainly not sanctioned.

MR MARITZ: As a matter of fact, I am told, and unfortunately I apologise for this, but the gremlins have been at work. I don't have a copy of General Fraser's book to hand, but I am told that at the end thereof there's an appendix, which summarises the principles that he expounded.  You are aware of that?  You've read the book?

WITNESS:   I've read the book.  I don't have a copy at my disposal at the moment.

MR MARITZ: Now, will you bear with me one moment, please?  Mr Chairman, sorry to take up a little bit of time.  What I have is in Afrikaans and apparently there is an English copy available and it will facilitate the cross-examination.  Thank you.  (Pause)   Thank you.  Doctor, I have now open in front of me Appendix A to this little booklet by General Pops Fraser and it starts at page 48 of the copy that I have here.  I am going to read the summarised principles and I'd like your comment on them as

MR MARITZ: /we go along.

MR MARITZ: 1B we go along.  I'll just stop after every paragraph.  He says,  "1.  A revolutionary war is a political war."

WITNESS: That's entirely consistent with ... (inaudible) ... military strategy.

MR MARITZ: Yes, and that's what you've said too.

MR MARITZ: "2. The objective for both sides in a revolutionary war is to gain the support of the mass of the population, their approval, sympathy and active participation."

MR MARITZ: That would be true?

WITNESS:   As far as the theoretical principles are concerned, yes.

MR MARITZ: Yes.  I'm sorry, you just have to record your voice, because it is not recording.

WITNESS:   Yes, as far as the theoretical principles of the strategy are concerned, yes.  We are speaking theory now.

MR MARITZ: The salient point is here too - and this is the point I'm trying to make - is that the professional soldier was taught these principles, and those are my instructions.

WITNESS:   Absolutely.

MR MARITZ: Yes, and 3. he says,

MR MARITZ: "Popular uprisings or revolutions rarely succeed without outside assistance."

MR MARITZ: A nod is not good enough.

WITNESS:   Sorry?

MR MARITZ: A nod is not good enough.

WITNESS:   Yes, no, that's correct.

MR MARITZ: "4. Propaganda, terrorism and guerillas constitute only one stage of modern warfare designed to create a situation favourable to the build-up of conventional forces for the purpose,

MR MARITZ: /eventually,

MR MARITZ: 1B eventually, of confronting government forces on the battlefield and defeating them."

MR MARITZ: ---   Correct.

MR MARITZ: And that refers, as I understand it, to the different stages of the revolutionary onslaught.

WITNESS:   Ja, that's correct.

MR MARITZ: 5, he says, "Time is a weapon of the insurgent".

WITNESS:   Correct.

MR MARITZ: "6. Revolutionary war will tax to the utmost the full resources and patience of any state."

MR MARITZ: ---   Correct.

MR MARITZ: And then he's got a sub-heading, which I must read too, "Principles concerning the support of the people", and then in paragraph 7 he says,

MR MARITZ: "A government must retain the political initiative over the insurgents by having a cause even more attractive than that inspiring them."

MR MARITZ: And I think you've said that as much in your evidence as well.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR MARITZ: "8. It is essential to create an environment that is not conducive to a successful revolution."

MR MARITZ: Is that so?

WITNESS:   Ja.