Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-17

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That's the only one that I knew of that Friday evening, the others were just information that I got from Fouche that people were killed.

MR MALAN: But your first hand knowledge about the activities of these gangs is zero because you do not know about the activities, you do not even know if they were involved in this incident.

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I only said that the information or the knowledge I had was from Fouche and De Lange.

MR MALAN: So you're saying all the knowledge that you had about this gang you received from De Lange and Fouche and what you try to confirm was an allegation about the death of a policeman on the 3rd April and you found out that he was not killed but that there was an incident and you do not know if there was any connection?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That is correct, yes.  You honour, after we did the planning we went back to the office.  We then decided that these people will be arrested.  I would make an arrangement with Fourie that if the vehicle arrived at the scene, that in case there's a shooting that Fouche will not be injured or killed.  I also told the people to be in my office the next morning at three o'clock.

MR MALAN: I'm sorry, I'm going to take you back now.  You didn't say when you confirmed that incident that would have happened on the 3rd April.

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: It was the 6th.

MR MALAN: On the 6th.  You never said at any stage that you approached Fouche to tell him that the information that he gave you is wrong that a policeman was not killed.  You thought it was good, it was alright that he said that this policeman was killed, you find out that there was an incident but you did not go back to Fouche?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No, I did not say to him that a man was killed, I've got no reason for not saying it to him.

MR MALAN: You see, it is about what you understood how this gang worked, you're saying that this gang worked like the 3 Million gang and the one in Parys, that they had political motives and they killed people left right and centre.  You now thought that this gang is acting in a similar way and the only way in which you can confirm it is that you then in the end found out that Fouche did not give you the right information.  You do not confront him but you still accept that this gang acted as the 3 Million gang.  Would you just like to bring that together please?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I will, yes.  I believed that the moment when we catch these people and the investigation that would follow will reveal the truth and I believed that the information that Fouche gave me is correct and is the truth.  Today I know it is not true concerning the information that Fouche gave me and I believe that it will become clear to you when I continue with my evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: You've said before that - and I'm reading this in English
"I believed that every person who committed such acts on aged person belonged to a political organisation"
Can you remember that?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Could you please read it again?

CHAIRPERSON: "I believed that every person who committed such acts, that is attacks of violence and robberies, belonged to a political organisation and that they were instructed to do so."

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Chairperson, I think you're referring to the previous application.  Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that everybody who attacked old people did it for political reasons.

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That was with regard to the farm attacks and that is my previous application.   I'm now only speaking about the Fouche incident.

MR MADASA: Sorry to interrupt you.  Can you tell the Committee again what investigation did you do with relation to that red Corolla vehicle?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: As I've already said investigation was conducted on the Police computers, that was the investigation we led.

MR MADASA: And what were your findings?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That it was stolen in Heidelberg.

MR MADASA: Okay, continue?

MR MALAN: Sorry Mr Madasa, is the logical question now not what did you do about it once you found out that it was stolen and it was reported?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: This was part of the actions against these people.  Information was gathered against them and this vehicle was already in our possession and Fouche used this vehicle.  Fouche and De Lange, they used this at several occasions and they used it as mode of transport and they used it to go to the townships to go and speak to these people.

MR MALAN: The question is why did you not immediately arrest because you had the Nexus, Fouche got the vehicle from the gang, this was stolen in Heidelberg, what more did you need in order to arrest them?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: As I've already told you the gang was infiltrated for quite a while and we were on our way of bringing a very strong case against them and at that stage when the vehicle was given there were only two weapons.  We did not receive any AK47s or no AK47s appeared.  That's why Fouche continued with this infiltration and the gathering of evidence against these people.  I would also like to tell you that an AK47 was bought from this gang.

CHAIRPERSON: On which day did the vehicle arrive?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: The 1st April, your honour.

CHAIRPERSON: And you did not want to arrest them on that day but on the 7th, that's when you wanted to arrest the two of them?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Chairperson, you must remember it was only Fouche who arrived there with a vehicle, there were no gang members with them.  He arrived there on his own, there were no members accompanying him, he was on his own.

CHAIRPERSON: And he could drive it back, a bug or listening device, you could have used that not true?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You do have things like this?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes it was used on the 3rd, we tried to attempt to arrest them with that robbery on the 3rd and you'll hear further from the evidence it was also used on the 7th, this listening device.
	Chairperson to continue, Fouche arrived that evening or that night at my place and he gave me the information that these people robbed a yellow Toyota Cressida or stole one.  He provided me with the registration number of this vehicle.  I made an enquiry by phone with regards to this vehicle and then it came through as negative.  I asked the police officer in the radio room to do it again later in order to determine whether this vehicle was in fact stolen.  Fouche brought me under the impression that these gang members robbed the vehicle, he was not involved.

MR MALAN: I just want to get clarity on this please.  Sometimes you use the idea of "Fouche told me" but then sometimes you also say "Fouche brought me under the impression" or "I got the impression".  Do you want to make a distinction there?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No.

MR MALAN: So every time you say "impression" we must interpret it as "Fouche told me"?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes please.

MR MALAN: Because you're using it indiscriminately.

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I accompanied Fouche to the scene and that is Hypersave and like we'd planned the night before together with a group of people who were present with us there I told him where to park the car and that he must get out of the car on his own, by himself and that he must go round the left corner of the shop or rather the right hand corner of this shopping centre and that a back up group was placed at the flats where he had to go to and then we would act in order to arrest the occupants of the car.
	In the second bundle you'll see a map from page 19 to 21 and I would just like to explain this to you.  Page 19, it's a map of Sasolburg and Vaalpark.  I do not know if the map is coloured or whether it is black and white.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa what is it that we should be looking at here?