Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-19

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it would seem to be prima facie that to the extent that a decision has been made, that their applications would be heard together, and they have to remain here until the applications have been finalised.
	Having said that, however, it may well be necessary that the applicant may wish to be excused for whatever reason.  It is a matter which we would have to consider as and when it arises.  But I would have thought that it would be in the interest of each and every applicant to be present throughout the proceedings, so that they can hear for themselves what evidence is being given and if there is any evidence that is given, which is prejudicial to them, they should be in a position to give instructions to their legal representative, a matter which they can't do if they are not here.

MR STRYDOM: Yes Chairperson, I am faced with such a situation because one of the applicants, Mr Tshabangu, must attend certain lectures, he is busy studying some course and he told me that he must attend certain lectures tomorrow.
	That is the reason why I asked for this directive.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, the Committee has no objections to him being excused, as long as there is someone here who is going to look after his interest.  If his legal representative is here, we don't have a problem with that, so he may be excused.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Another matter which I want to raise, and this is directed to you Mr Shellberg and Mr Mapoma.  The affidavit of Mr Nosenga which was handed in this morning, directly implicates the police in the attack.
	It seems to me that the police must therefore be given the necessary notice under the Act.  Would you make sure that that notice is sent out to the police as soon as it is practicable to do so?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, I will do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any matter that Counsel wishes to raise?

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairperson, there is one aspect that perturbs me.  You referred in the cross-examination of the previous witness, previous applicant, to this document.  It is a document that exceeds 80 pages.
	I don't know from whom it was meant to have been handed in, I don't know if it is before the Committee, I don't know what its evidential value is, and I don't know what the purpose of it is, with respect Mr Chairperson.
	A further aspect Mr Chairperson, that perturbs me is why so late in the day, on the second day of the hearing, at three o'clock, this document which is an extensive document, is made available to Counsel?  Counsel - it is required of us to study the document, possibly consult with witnesses in regard to the allegations that are made here.
	I personally feel, this is my personal view, that it is unfair towards Counsel to be given a document of this nature, at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Throughout these proceedings Mr Da Silva, we have been receiving documents, not at a time when those documents should have been received, but fairly late, and that is the circumstance you have to live with.
	You must just do your best as all of us have been doing in the past, go through this document tonight, consult if necessary and make sure that you are ready tomorrow morning.
	As I understand this document, it is prepared by - it has been put together by the Investigative Unit of the TRC, is that right?  Yes, it has been compiled by the Investigating Unit of the TRC, it is intended to assist whoever who needs assistance from these documents, to go through.

MR DA SILVA: I am indebted to your explanation Mr Chairman.  The only, if I can put it this way, the objection that I have is that a document is made available and with due respect, and it is not that I am pointing fingers at anybody, that is not my intention, but as far as I am concerned, I was the only person sitting here during the tea adjournment, and there is no explanation whatsoever given, from where the document comes from, with respect Mr Chairperson.
	I will leave the matter there, I understand that we are dealing with this matter in exceptional circumstances.  I just thought that I would raise this concern because it is a real concern that I have in the matter, and it is not an intention, and I say this with the utmost respect, of pointing fingers at anybody.
	It is just that I felt that it is unfair that such a document, of this nature, is made available at such a late stage.  But I accept what you have said Mr Chairman, and I don't think it is necessary to take it any further than that.
	I am indebted to you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, just to satisfy Mr Da Silva, do you know why this document was given to him this late?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Mr Chairman, this document was prepared by the Investigative Unit together with my predecessor, Adv Prior and he made a suggestion that this document be made available to all the legal representatives and the Committee members, for whatever assistance that they may need through it.

MR DA SILVA: I am indebted to the explanation Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you are perfectly entitled to challenge the contents of this document, and on a perusal, it would appear that it includes documents such as the report of the inquiry into the police's response to the events in Boipatong, this is the Goldstone Commission.
	I think one should accept that a decision has been made to make this document available, and it is just before us.  We will have to do our best to go through the document and if necessary, Counsel will be given time to consult with his or her client if necessary.  
	Again to the extent that the issues that Counsel intends to raise, are relevant to the issues before us,  should we give it a number at this stage?  Perhaps we should give it a number.  It would be marked as Exhibit S.
	Very well.  Mr Berger, did you have anything to say?

MR BERGER: No Chairperson, it is not necessary.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I have something to say whilst we are talking about documents, I know it is late in the day, but I just want to make sure that we don't end up with the same situation that documents aren't received, or received at a late stage.
	At a previous hearing, there were certain documents outstanding for Mr Mxoliseni Mkhize and Paulos Mbatha.  Those documents I handed over to the Committee, but I see it has not been added to the bundle.  That is just the affidavit of these people and further particulars.
	I just want to make sure that all the relevant parties have copies of this document, otherwise I will have to make further copies and have it available.

CHAIRPERSON: None of the Committee members as far as I am aware, are in possession of those documents.

MR BERGER: We were given documents for Mbatha and Mkhize, if that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: I will just make then sure that further copies are made and made available as soon as possible.

CHAIRPERSON: We will reconvene tomorrow morning at half past eight.
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