Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-04

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: During the time of the assault, even members of the riot squad were assaulting people but Captain Tsomela - I never heard him receiving instructions form Colonel Coetzee that he should assault people and how he should assault those people and he was present with Stevenson and Coetzee when we assaulting those people.
	I don't say that he received instructions, the instructions were given to us.  As whether he - how he assaulted people, he used his own discretion.  Whilst we were assaulting those people he was present - yes, yes, he took part in the assault yes, he took part yes, he took part, even Colonel Coetzee took part in the assault.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Ngo, thank you very much, you explained that very well to us.  The next person Warrant Officer van den Burg, would it be fair to assume that that is a reference to van den Berg?
	I just want to ask you whether you can throw light on the aspect because we don't know of a van den Burg.  Would that refer to van den Berg, do you think?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is van den Berg.

MR VISSER: Van den Berg, thank you Mr Ngo.  That's P63 Mr Chairman.  And then perhaps with your permission if I may dare to do so Mr Chairman, ask one more question in regard to the evidence which he gave in reply to questions by Mr Brink this morning.
	Is it correct that this morning, just a few minutes ago when Mr Brink was questioning you, you said that White Mohapi was arrested for having stabbed you, did you say so?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, he was acquitted for that.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  I just want to place on record Mr Ngo, for the assistance of the Committee, the evidence by some of my clients will be that White Mohapi was indeed arrested on more than one occasion, perhaps two or three occasions or even more under security legislation and clearly also released every time but that he was only arrested for one criminal offence and that is for the stabbing of Nelson Ngo.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Do they say he was just only arrested once for criminal offence?

MR VISSER: Yes, yes, Mr Ngo, and that was for stabbing you.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: White was - they stabbed me after he was arrested many times.  He was arrested whilst he was a student together with me in many things he did.  Even when I was in the police, I used to raid him and arrest him.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, in fairness to the witness, may I record here that is only as far as we could only ascertain, it may well be and this is not a question of credibility questions to the witness.  I want to make it quite clear that it may well be that Mr Ngo is correct but I just want to place on record that as far as we know, as we sit here now at this moment, he was only arrested for one criminal offence and that was the stabbing.  We've heard what Mr Ngo says and he may well be right Mr Chairman, I'm taking the matter no further than that.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I think this ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want a short adjournment.

MR STANDER: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take an adjournment for a few minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: s.u.o.

MR STANDER: Thank you very much for the time you've given me in order to get my instructions in order - I did it as far as I could.  Just before I proceed, I want to place it on record that I've been instructed on behalf of an Abel Choane and Norman Choane - I've written it down and you'll get a list thereof, Mr Matthews Mzuzwana, Zwelabantu Mzuzwana and then a certain Mr Bobby Sebotsa also is - is apparently a victim only in Motsamai's matter as well as a certain Jeff Mabila although I've still got to consult with them properly.
	As far as the Mzuzwana's are concerned Mr Chairman, there is a few questions I would like to ask the applicant as far as they are concerned.

MR BRINK: May I just say for the record Mr Chairman, with regard to Bobby - I've forgotton the surname, Sebotsa, my colleague has agreed to act pro-amica for this gentleman as he doesn't qualify for legal aid.

MR STANDER: That is in fact true Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We are obliged to you for your assistance in that regard, thank you.

MR STANDER: You're welcome Mr Chairman.

MR STANDER: Now Mr Ngo, do you know the two gentlemen by the names of Matthews Mzuzwana and Zwelabantu Mzuzwana?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, I know them.

MR STANDER: I'd like the two gentlemen with the names of Matthews Mzuzwana -  firstly Mr Matthews Mzuzwana to raise - he's in the audience.
	Mr Ngo, is that Mr Matthews Mzuzwana?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, I know him, it's him.

MR STANDER: Let the record them reflect that he referred to Mr Matthews Mzuzwana who raised in the audience.  I'd like now for Mr Zwelabantu Mzuzwana to raise, he's also in the audience.
	Mr Ngo, is that Mr Zwelabantu Mzuzwana?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That's him.

MR STANDER: So let the record again reflect that he referred to Mr Zwelabantu Mzuzwana who was in the audience and who stood up when his name was called.
	Now these two gentlemen, how come you know of about them?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I will start with Matthews.

MR STANDER: Please proceed.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was a student at Vulamasango high school and he was a member of COSAS, during that time he was a member of COSAS, so we worked together in COSAS to organise the students and to carry forward the objectives of COSAS.

MR STANDER: What about his brother Mr Ngo, that's now Mr Zwelabantu Mzuzwana?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was a member of United Democratic Front and Release Mandela Campaign, he took part in those two organisations.  I used to go to Matthews and then we sought advices from Matthews if we didn't know some of the things in our political activity.

MR STANDER: Was that after you became an informer for the security branch of the South African police?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, I would say yes.

MR STANDER: Do you think he knew about your being an informer of the South African police by that time?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, he didn't know, he knew that I was a member of COSAS.

MR STANDER: Do you know anything about the bombing of the parental house of Mr Zwelabantu Mzuzwana and actually Mr Matthews Mzuzwana during the course of  1990 -1986, I'm sorry, Mr Chairman.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: What I know is that I went there with Mr Motsamai to bomb the house which was called Max Makhubalo's house - we were mistaken, it was Citi Mzuzwana's house.

MR STANDER: Is it true that it was in fact the parental home of Mr Zwelabantu Mzuzwana that you wanted to bomb?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I knew that it was Max Makhubalo's house the way Motsamai and Mamome identified that house.  I didn't know it was the parents of - I don't know as whether it was the parents of - I don't know as whether it was his house or his parents house.

MR STANDER: Would you contest then that it was in fact the house of the parents of Mr Zwelabantu Mzuzwana that was bombed during that time and not the house of Mr Max Makhubalo as you said?   I beg your pardon, as Citi Makhubalo - Mzuzwana, I'm sorry.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I would not disagree with that because I knew only that the house was targeted, then we were supposed to bomb that house and we bombed that house, I only knew that it was Max Makhubalo's house, then later I learnt that it was Citi Mzuzwana's house, I would not disagree with that.

MR STANDER: Now tell me, at that stage Citi Mzuzwana was in custody, do you know about that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, I didn't know that.

MR STANDER: Do you know of any incidents where Citi Mzuzwana's car was also petrol-bombed by the security forces?