Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-25

MR BERGER: Mr Bajosi at the trial said that he saw you in Boipatong at a house on the corner of Glubie and Bafokeng Streets, would that be correct?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: It might be true he saw me but I did not see him.

MR BERGER: Well you don't dispute that during the attack you were in the vicinity at one point in time of the corner of Glubie and Bafokeng Street?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I think we got into many streets.  I do not even know where Glubie is, I would not dispute that.

MR BERGER: I can tell you - well you say you don't know where Glubie is, does that mean that you don't know Boipatong very well?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You didn't spend any time in Boipatong?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: No.

MR BERGER: You didn't have any friends or family in Boipatong?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I don't have family in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: You didn't have any reason to go to Boipatong?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I had no reason to take me to Boipatong to attack people.

MR BERGER: Now Glubie and Bafokeng, the corner of Glubie and Bafokeng is right at the top of the township, you know the streets where the factories are?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, his evidence is that he cannot dispute whether he was at that place because there were so many streets.  I don't know what point would be served by telling me where the location is unless there is something to the point that you want to make.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I want to give the witness an opportunity to at least have an idea of the area of Boipatong that I'm talking about because I want to tell him what happened at two houses near the corner of Glubie and Bafokeng Streets but I can move onto that straight away without telling him, fine.

CHAIRPERSON: No, let's hear what he has to say because I understand him he just didn't know Boipatong, nor does he know any streets there, he can't dispute, deny that he was at some of those places.

MR BERGER: That's what I'm trying to assist him with, with some idea of where it is.
	Mr Mkwanazi, near the corner of the two streets where you were seen are two houses.  One is 734 Bafokeng and the other is 722 Bafokeng.

CHAIRPERSON: And this is where he was seen by the state witness Bajosi?

MR BERGER: That is so, Chairperson and at 734 Bafokeng Andries Manekye and Lena Manekye were stabbed - let me be accurate, Andries Manekye was stabbed, chopped and shot.  Lena Manekye was stabbed and items were stolen from the house and at 722 Bafokeng ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just let him deal with the first one, with 734 first, let's get his response.  Did you understand the question?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I understand.

MR BERGER: The question is and I'm not sure which house you were seen coming out of, that's why I wanted to mention both houses which are near the corner of the street, but in both houses items were stolen and in both houses people were killed.  In other words they were there when the items were stolen because they died there.  Now you say that the house you went into had been deserted?  Are you not telling lies again?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: No, there were no people inside the house, the house was deserted, the doors were open.

CHAIRPERSON: The state witness Bajosi only says he saw him in the vicinity of these two houses, 734 and 722, is that all he said?

MR BERGER: Yes, he saw him at a house on the corner of Glubie and Bafokeng Streets.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay and the houses at the corner would be either one of those two?

MR BERGER: No Chairperson, 734 is exactly on the corner of Glubie and Bafokeng and 722 is in Bafokeng across the road from the corner with Glubie and Bafokeng.  It's two houses away from the corner.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes alright.

MR BERGER: You're saying you didn't go into those houses?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: No I did not get into those houses.  The house that I went into was in the middle.  From the corner it might be the seventh if not the eighth house.

MR BERGER: Oh, so you do have an idea of where the house is?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: It might happen it is the seventh or the eighth house from the corner, that's the structure of the township houses.

MR BERGER: And you can remember that today from that night?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.  I remember what happened on that day.

MR BERGER: You took a T.V. - I beg your pardon, a video recorder, because you were hoping to sell it to someone in the hostel?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You were hoping to sell it to someone who had a T.V.?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.  Someone who did not have a T.V. could have as well bought it.

MR BERGER: To do what with?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: He would buy it and buy the T.V. set later on.

MR BERGER: How many people had T.V. sets in the hostel?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I would not say everybody in the hostel had a television.  I think according to my knowledge ten if not eleven people owned television sets within the hostel.

MR BERGER: Why did you not steal anything else, why just a video?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I knew that video machines are very expensive when you buy them from the shops so when selling it I would sell it at a very high price so that I can buy food and clothes.

MR BERGER: So you hoped to make a lot of money from this video machine?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And isn't it also so that you couldn't carry anything else because you were now carrying a video machine so it would have been a bit difficult to steal other stuff?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct, I wanted this video.

MR BERGER: You must have been very upset the next day when Mr Mkhize and Damara Xongo said you must burn the video machine?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Would it surprise you that - or are you surprised because you were present that Mr Mkhize doesn't tell the Committee that he gave any order to burn the goods?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I did not hear an order to burn the bloodstained clothes I only know an order to burn stolen goods which is microwave ovens, television sets and video machines.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkwanazi, that is not the question you are being asked.  The question is are you surprised that Mr Mkhize, when he gave evidence before this Committee, did not mention the fact that he had given orders that stolen items such as your video machine be burned?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: It really surprised me.

MR BERGER: Where was this order given and how was it given?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: It was after the attack.  We were told that the police were outside to come and search and we were told we should burn the stolen goods to hide the evidence.

MR BERGER: Are you talking now about the day after the attack, the 18th June 1992?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Round about what time in the morning was it when this order was given?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I do not remember the time but it was day.

MR BERGER: Was it in the morning?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: It was not in the morning it was just towards midday, round about 1 o'clock, 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock but not in the morning.

MR BERGER: And where were you when this order was given?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: I was at the stadium.

MR BERGER: Alright, so if I understand your evidence correctly, what happened was you woke up that morning very pleased with yourself that you now had a video machine and you were going to make lots of money.  The whole morning went by and nothing happened and then at some point everybody was called to the stadium, would that be right?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Did the siren go off again and then everyone went to the stadium?

SONNY MICHAEL MKWANAZI: That is correct.  Others were just walking towards the stadium.

MR BERGER: Then everybody congregated in the stadium, it's now about midday and Mr Mkhize and Damara Xongo address the men?