Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes I was told that I had to commit murder on individuals as preparation for myself as form of initiation and of course to convince them that I was prepared to do the work.

MR MOSTERT: Who put it to you that way?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Dawie de Beer.

MR MOSTERT: Did he ever give you any targets to attack?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: He did not point out specific targets.

MR MOSTERT: How did he give you instructions?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: He told me to kill a black man and he wasn't really interested in who it was or how I carried it out, I just had to carry out the task and report back to him.

MR MOSTERT: While we are at that point, he gave you instructions to kill a black man in order to determine whether or not you could do it?  The other thing is did he give you any other instructions with regard to the carrying out of other actions?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: When we established the underground movement the most of us resigned or at least myself and a colleague resigned so that we could work fulltime.  Money was promised to us, they promised to finance us in order to live and move but that was never realised and when it wasn't realised instructions were given in order to commit robbery so that we could finance it.

MR MOSTERT: So that brings us to the following point - the robbery - were specific instructions given to you to commit robbery and the escape?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: While I was in detention he told me that if I got the chance to walk I should take it and if the opportunity should present itself.

MR MOSTERT: And was he with you?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No but only under Section 29 was he arrested with me, however, he was never in a prison.

MR MOSTERT: At which point did he tell you to walk if you got the chance?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: It was when I was awaiting trial.

MR MOSTERT: Did he visit you?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: Your instructions or at least there was a shift of emphasis with regards to The Order of the Death, initially the objective was to break up the National Party and then a shift in emphasis happened, why?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: That was in order to focus on the left wing leaders because they had become too strong at that point for the right wing.  It had to operate or it was said to me that it was national law that said that if the government was in such chaos that it couldn't operate properly any more, the opposition had to take over and that is what our plan was.

MR MOSTERT: These offences that you committed, when you committed them would you regard yourself then as a full time operative or soldier of The Order of Death?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: At which point did you resign from your job?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I think it might have been in August 1988.

MR MOSTERT: And when were these offences committed?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I don't have the specific dates at my disposal but I think that some of these things could have been before my resignation and some of the after my resignation, I'm not entirely certain.

MR MOSTERT: The 29th August 1989 was the date when the murder was committed.

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I think that I had resigned by then already or wait a moment, I resigned at the end of July.

MR MOSTERT: Did you work out a month's worth of notice?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No, I gave 24 hours notice.

MR MOSTERT: The reasons for your resignation, were there any personal reasons for your resignation or was it in order to participate in the struggle?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No, if one had to undertake observations one couldn't only work at night because one would be placed under suspicion if one was walking around at night, everybody would be looking and you could just walk past a place and not really do anything more than that.

MR MOSTERT: I would just like to achieve a level of clarity for the Committee.  At the point when these offences were committed, you had already resigned from the AWB, you were no longer a member?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: But you believe that you acted under the orders of the AWB and the CP as a member of The Order of Death?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes, at a point we lost complete confidence in Terre'blanche, that was with the Jani Allen incident when he had a relationship with her and that was also one of my complaints that I had planted a bomb at Jani Allen's flat - wait a moment, I've just lost my thoughts here.

MR MOSTERT: At the point when you had committed the offences, you were no longer a member of the AWB and you were full time with The Order of Death?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes that's correct.  At that point when we made full decision that we would no longer have anything to do with the AWB, Aquillo also moved away from the AWB, that was after the time that the Wen Commandos and so forth were established, I was not involved with that.

MR MOSTERT: When you functioned as a member of The Order of Death did you still believe that your behaviour was under the orders of the AWB and the CP?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: At the end we did not act with the AWB because we had separated from them but we still acted under the orders of the AWB and The Order of Death.

MR MOSTERT: But these instructions which de Beer issued to you?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: He gave these orders under the authority under the AWB.

MR MOSTERT: How does the CP fit in with this?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: At a point Dawie de Beer held negotiations with an ex MP Treurnicht and during that time I don't know if they reached an agreement regarding the coup d'etat or whatever, but the CP must definitely have assumed a leadership
position as soon as our military division had been finalised and the government was in such a state of chaos that the opposition could take over.

MR MOSTERT: Is that what Mr de Beer said to you?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: You were not at that meeting?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No.

MR MOSTERT: Let us look at all three of the offences, the murder, the robbery and the escape.  You have given the Committee the impression within which context you functioned and what your chief motive was - your motive with the murder -what was going through your head when you approached this?  How did you think about it, please tell the Committee exactly what happened there?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: The decision making about who and what it would be was left up to me personally and I didn't want to simply just do anything, that is why I chose a Black taxi driver who transported white persons in his taxi.  I basically chose him in order to protest against integration so that it would serve a dual purpose that I would not simply find someone on the street and kill him.

MR MOSTERT: Did you know this man?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: No.  How it happened that it was specifically this man was that Goosen and myself were also both involved in the murder, he was my co-accused in this case.  When we arrived at the taxi ranks in Johannesburg we took the back taxi so that front taxis could not see our faces and see who was climbing in with this particular taxi.

MR MOSTERT: And the purpose behind it, what did you want to achieve by murdering this person?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Firstly I had to prepare myself emotionally to be a soldier in order to execute later tasks and it was also an order.

MR MOSTERT: That is the following issue - the order to which you are referring, who gave you the order?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Dawie de Beer.

MR MOSTERT: Did he ever explain to you what his objective was with the order?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: Yes.

MR MOSTERT: Yes, he wasn't one hundred percent certain that I was a suitable person for that type of thing because normally I'm not a violent person.