Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-29

CHAIRPERSON: I think we have been requested that each time a legal representative take his turn, he must place his name on record.

MR CORNELIUS: I am sorry, it is Cornelius for Vermeulen, there is no further questions from this side, thank you.

MR CORNELIUS: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp?

MR KEMP: It is Kemp on behalf of the fifth and sixth applicants, no questions Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KEMP

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ford?

ADV FORD: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Ford on behalf of Mrs Mgoduka and Mrs Faku.  Mr Lotz, your senior officer, who did you report to?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: At that stage?

ADV FORD: At that stage yes.

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Colonel Roelofse.

ADV FORD: And how many people reported to Colonel Roelofse?  How many people were in the section which he controlled?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Approximately 10 to 12.  I am not entirely sure.

ADV FORD: Now Mr Lotz, you testified at some length in the trial in which you were acquitted, and of course you denied any knowledge of the bombing as such, is that right?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: I did not testify.

ADV FORD: I am sorry, I am talking about the Goniwe inquest, my apology.  The Goniwe inquest you testified in it?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And you were cross-examined at some length?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And of course we must accept then that much of what you said in that evidence, was untrue?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And you have now decided that in this application you are going to reveal the true facts and all the facts?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV FORD: In order that all of those who were involved, both before and after this bombing, should be brought to justice, is that right?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Now, who was the Investigating Officer of the bombing?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Captain Van Wyk.

ADV FORD: And to whom did he report?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Colonel Roelofse.

ADV FORD: Was he a competent Investigating Officer in so far as you were aware Mr Lotz?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: I believe so, yes.

ADV FORD: And Colonel Roelofse, was he a competent Security Policeman in your experience?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Was he involved in investigations, ongoing investigations relating to covert operations, relating to counter-insurgency and the like?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: I think so, he was the Unit Commander if one can put it like that, so he should have been aware of that, but I can't say for sure he was or he wasn't involved.

ADV FORD: How did you come to be available to Mr Nieuwoudt that night?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: I maybe wrong, but it was just before the 16th of December and all the members were on duty in our Unit.  I was doing administrative office work at the time.

ADV FORD: Were you aware that you were going to be summoned by Mr Nieuwoudt to assist?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: He said that he might need me, yes.

ADV FORD: The motor vehicle which you drove to the scene where the explosion took place, that was a motor vehicle from your section, do I understand that correctly?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No, it was not.

ADV FORD: It was from Captain Van Vuuren's section?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes, Nieuwoudt's Unit.

ADV FORD: I see, oh, I am sorry, that was the untrue evidence given in the Goniwe inquest that it was from Van Vuuren's section?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: I don't know exactly how the Unit functioned at the time, but the vehicle belonged to Nieuwoudt's Unit.

ADV FORD: Where did you pick up the motor vehicle or fetch the motor vehicle from if we may put it that way?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: At Louis Le Grange square.

ADV FORD: And who furnished you with the keys?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: The keys were in Captain Nieuwoudt's office, in the drawer near the telephone.

ADV FORD: Was Colonel Roelofse aware that you were going to be assisting Nieuwoudt in this operation?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: I don't know.

ADV FORD: Did you question at all when Mr Nieuwoudt asked you to participate, to assist him in this way?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No, sir.

ADV FORD: When you drove the motor vehicle, were you aware at all of what was to take place?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No.

ADV FORD: You were not aware that you were driving a motor vehicle heavily loaded with explosive obviously?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No, I did not know.

ADV FORD: After the explosion had taken place, you were then very well aware that you had been driving such a motor vehicle?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct, yes.

ADV FORD: You at no stage questioned your involvement in this operation, you weren't aware what it was about and what was going to be required of you other than driving the motor vehicle to the scene?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: If I remember correctly, before the explosion?

ADV FORD: Yes?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No.

ADV FORD: And as you were driving away, if we understand your evidence, you heard the explosion take place behind you?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV FORD: How far were you away at that stage?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: It could have been a kilometre.  I stand to be corrected, I didn't measure the distance.

ADV FORD: Did you have your radio on?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes.

ADV FORD: Were you alerted to the explosion by the sound of the explosion or by what was broadcast on the radio?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: I think I first heard the explosion and then I heard the report on the radio.

ADV FORD: By all accounts, it was a substantial explosion which you would have heard clearly?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And what was then broadcast over the radio?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: It was Captain Nieuwoudt speaking on the radio and he mentioned the explosion which had taken place and everything surrounding that.

ADV FORD: What was your reaction?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: I was shocked.

ADV FORD: Were you aware what had happened at that stage, which car had been blown up?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No.  No, I wasn't sure when I heard the news, which car it was.

ADV FORD: Did you contact anybody, or endeavoured to contact anybody?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: I turned round and went back and I then saw what had happened.

ADV FORD: It was then, I assume, immediately clear to you that it was the Jetta motor vehicle which you had driven, which had blown up?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And it was practically or in the near vicinity of where you had handed it over, is that correct?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes, about 50 to 100 metres further on.

ADV FORD: What was Mr Nieuwoudt doing at that stage when you returned?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: He was on the scene, he walked around.  I don't know exactly what he was doing.  Whether he was perhaps just determining what had happened.

ADV FORD: Were there other people present when you arrived at the scene?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: When I got as far as the bluegum trees, Mr Snyman and Mr Ras were also there.

ADV FORD: And what were they doing?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: They were also just standing there.

ADV FORD: Did you asked what had happened?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes, they said as I said in my application, Captain Nieuwoudt said that it was an official operation and he instructed me to take those two people to where their vehicle was parked and then to go back to Louis Le Grange square.

ADV FORD: So at that stage there was no doubt in your mind that these persons, your colleagues, had been killed by their own men if we can call it that, by Mr Nieuwoudt inter alia?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Did you question that at all?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No, not at that stage, I was too shocked.