Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-18

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Maybe just a last question to you, what exactly were your instructions regarding the robbery?  Did you have previous information that there will be money in the shop, a large amount of money, or how did you get the information that there was actually money in the shop, did you discuss it or how did it happen?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: No, we never discussed that.

MR STEENKAMP: Didn't you take your own briefcase with you to the shop when you commenced the robbery, didn't you take your own briefcase with you inside the shop?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: No.

MR STEENKAMP: You see, the information I have is that when you entered the shop, you had your own briefcase?

CHAIRPERSON: Can I clarify, do you mean him personally, or the group?

MR STEENKAMP: I'm sorry, Mr Chairman, I mean the group.  One of you in the group had a briefcase in his possession wherein the money was then put, the money that was robbed in the shop.  Do you understand that?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Yes, but that never happened, there's nothing like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was the money put?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: In our pockets.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean you all took pocketfuls of money?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: That's correct, there were cheques, it was about R4 000,00, there were cheques also.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  There were how many of you?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: You mean inside or, please clarify your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Inside.

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: There were three of us, there were three of us.

MR MALAN: Did you take the money after the shooting, or before the shooting?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: After the shooting.

MR MALAN: Who opened the till for you?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: There's a lady who was there, who was inside, she opened the till.

MR MALAN: Before she was shot?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Surely.

MR MALAN: Now, did you ask her to open the till?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Yes, we did.

MR MALAN: And when did you take the money, when she opened the till?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: She pressed the till, I took the money, and she pressed another one, and the other one took the money and she pressed another till and the other comrade came and took the money, we took the money to the commander.

MR MALAN: So you took the money before you shot the people?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Just before she was killed, the others were already shot at, she was the last person to be shot at, we took the money before we shot at her.

MR MALAN: Why did you spare her?  You got the order to shoot from Mr Bhani, and you say you shot everything in front of your eyes, why didn't you shoot this lady too?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: I was on the left-hand side, she was on the right-hand side, when I came in, I came through the left-hand side, next to the tills, she was standing next to a till.  I saw her when Bhani went back and she came and opened all the tills, and we took the money and we shot at her, we left the place.

MR MALAN: I find it difficult to understand why you did not tell us this in the beginning, because your version and Mr Bhani's version was, went in, got an order to shoot, shot everybody.  You never told us that one lady was only shot later.  Is it not that you perhaps took the money, ordered - as the version of the victims, ordered all the people to lie down, then indeed took the money and then shot them, isn't that how it happened?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: No, we didn't take the money first.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Can I just ask you a last question?  Except for the money and the cheques, did you take anything else out of the supermarket, food, clothing, the personal belongings of any of the victims, or was it the only the money and the cheques?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: We took money and the cheques only.

MR STEENKAMP: Any food?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: No.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: The money, was it notes or coins?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: It was bank notes and coins, and cheques.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say it all went into your pockets?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: One other point I would like to clarify, I'm afraid I'm a little confused by this, you shot all the people who were there?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who identified you at the identification parade, and pointed you out?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Though I didn't see the person, but in court, Phuli is the one I know, there were eight people who went to the identification parade, four people pointed me, the only person that I got to know was Phuli, I don't know the names of the other three persons who pointed me.

ADV SOGODI: Sorry, Chairperson, this Phuli who pointed you, you say "the only person I knew was Phuli who pointed me", did you know him before the shooting, or did you know him after the shooting?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: I knew him when I saw him in court and I got to know his name, that he was Phuli.

ADV SOGODI: And what about the other three people, didn't they come to court?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Yes, they came.

ADV SOGODI: But why do you single out Phuli as the person you knew in court, why do you single him out?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: It's because he had an African name, the name that I'll never forget, the others' names I forgot, I couldn't remember their names.

ADV SOGODI: Were they black or white people?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: They were white.

MR STEENBERG: Chairman, I can just confirm that the Phuli the applicant is talking about, is in fact the person that pointed the applicant out in court, and he was one of the black employees in the shop, who actually saw the applicant in the shop.  A witness to this effect will be called.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible)?

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman, yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Ngesi, you were asked about identifying of targets, can you tell the Committee, during your training, were you told who was your enemy?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, tell the Committee, who was your enemy?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: As we knew that we were oppressed and we were oppressed by the boers, although there were Africans who benefitted from that government who oppressed us, but the enemy, our enemy was the oppressors.  We didn't differentiate in colour, but the people who were oppressing us were boers.  There were Africans who were working for the boers who were working against us, who were working against the people who wanted liberation, they were the people who were benefitting from the past government.

MR MBANDAZAYO: If I get you correctly, you'll correct me if I'm wrong, that your enemy, your training you were told that they are boers, you were told boers or white people or what was it, white or boers, or do you use the same words for both?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: We used the same word, because we use it in Xhosa, we were using it in Xhosa, the boers were the people who were oppressing us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, are you trying to tell the Committee that since you were told that, you knew that the people who were oppressing you were boers, and then your targets were selected in that manner, that was the criteria that was used to select the targets, that the people who were oppressing us are the boers, you selected your targets in that manner?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now coming, the last point, coming to the supermarket, the shooting, you told the Committee that the first thing that you did in the supermarket was to shoot, am I correct?

SILIMELA QUKUBONA NGESI: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, with this last person who opened till for you, at what stage did you realise that she was not shot at?