Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

MR VISSER: Yes, yes.  Would you agree with me Mr Ngo that if indeed Mr Venter was an informant there would be no reason on earth why Erasmus would deny that fact, would you agree with that?  Or could you think of a reason why Erasmus would deny that Venter was an informant if he in fact was,
as a policeman can you give a reason?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: If a person is my informer, if I have no reason to give which it doesn't necessarily need from any person that I should tell that he's an informer, I cannot tell that.

MR VISSER: I am not sure I follow.  Perhaps it's a matter for argument Mr Chairman.  Now you see the matter now gets better when we come to paragraph 10 of page 3.  You are now dealing as I ....(power interruption for +/- 10 mins.)

JUDGE MGOEPE: ... that you are reading to the applicant is in fact the application form that is before the Amnesty Committee, and if there is any other form somewhere else then I don't think that should really be a problem.  I think we should proceed with the application that is before the Committee and the witness should be given that particular....

MR VISSER: I quite agree Mr Chairman.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Well can I clear something else up before.  Was this bundle, where did you get this bundle of papers from?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: After I have received a copy which is in Correctional Service that the Amnesty application is not complete I had to fill in another one, so I had to fill in a new application altogether.

JUDGE WILSON: The papers you now have did you get the whole bundle together or have you collected the bundle?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No those are the - the extra copy on top, the first copies are those which agree with the copies of the Truth Commission then I got that copy from the Truth Commission as a reference, and the last copy which I signed as my last application.

JUDGE WILSON: (...indistinct) just been handed to me.  The top of the bundle is a letter from the Amnesty Committee dated the 6th of March.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Which told me that my form is incomplete therefore I've got to fill a new application form and then they photostatted those new forms and they returned them to me.  Then there is a receipt ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: .....it says to you,
"Please take note that Mpezele Nelson Ngo has to appear in front of the Amnesty Committee through a hearing on the 24th of March".
that's what this says, it says nothing about anything being incomplete, the document on top that I'm talking to you about.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I am asking the Judge to look carefully that he should read those copies carefully and....

JUDGE WILSON: Where did you get this bundle of papers from, have you collected them and kept them, or did you get them all sent to you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: They sent them to - they sent them from the Truth Commission to me.

JUDGE WILSON: This whole bundle?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Mpshe is that so, was a bundle sent to the applicant?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If I may have a look at it Mr Chairman I may be able to comment.

MR VISSER: To give you a running commentary Mr Chairman we've now discovered that the one form was signed in August last year, and the other one in March this year, we have to try and sort this out now Mr Chairman.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman I see there are quite a number of statements attached which statements could have been found from the police docket, which statements we don't have of witnesses who could have testified at the hearing.  And number two, Mr Chairman, the letter is just informing him about the hearing, and the second letter as well, this comes from our office, and the third letter is what was contained in the documents which I gave to the advocate this morning.  But I note Mr Chairman that the application that is in here is different - was signed on a different date as to the one that we are dealing with now.  Now I don't understand Mr Chairman.  But if the applicant has not completed the application form correctly the procedure is that we send it back to him with a letter that it be correctly filled out.

JUDGE WILSON: Well that's what he says was done.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So it means that this maybe one of these applications that was sent back to him, but what is surprising he signed this on the 7th of March 1997.

ADV DE JAGER: That's three weeks ago.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The suspicion, I am just - I am just thinking that he may have filled in another one at the Correctional Services and left it with the Correctional Services and thought that it was being posted to us.  In the meantime we are working with the one that was signed in 1996.

JUDGE WILSON: Well I think Mr Visser if you have a look at the wording of that one it is also a little....

MR VISSER: I haven't seen it yet Mr Chairman, I haven't seen that one yet.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Ngo could you perhaps inform us in the meantime when did your brother apply for amnesty?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was after two months after I had applied, he applied.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman if I could come in there since this question was posed earlier on I wanted to come with it at an appropriate stage, I have a copy of a letter with me dated the 26th of February 1997 to our Executive Officer Mr Machaka requesting him to check as to whether the other two brothers Ari Ngo and John Ngo applied for amnesty.  The response I am told verbally was that he called and he said this they have not applied.  Can I hand over the letter seeking that information.  If I may be told Mr Chairman with respect, as to how, is it the applicant who said his brother has applied?

JUDGE WILSON: But you ask him to go and find out from his brother whether they have applied, why don't we find from our own records whether they've applied?  Kindly ask the applicant which prisons they are in and find out if they have applied or intend to do so, why don't we look at our own records to see if they've applied.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman a letter is directed to the Executive Secretary who then checks in our database which is confirmed by Bonita, the data capturer in Cape Town, Mr Chairman.  That is the procedure, unfortunately Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: So our database hasn't told us that his brother has applied?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Machaka Lungile has phoned back to say that the two brothers have not applied.

JUDGE WILSON: They have not applied.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: They have not applied Mr Chairman and this was confirmed by Bonita, the data capturer.

JUDGE WILSON: Very well.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: If you want to look at this application before you continue.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Mr Chairman may I just enquire, until what time would you like to proceed tonight?

JUDGE WILSON: Well counsel wants to go and talk to his client, so I said we would not sit too late.  I will give you the thing now, you can look at it, and you can also get an opportunity to obtain the complete judgment.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Which I think you may want to look at before you ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Certainly, thank you Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Well perhaps while we are still here I could just clarify, we now have this new application that you have produced which was signed in March of this year.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes it is so.

JUDGE WILSON: And we have an application signed on the 24th of August of last year, written by you, signed by you.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes I wrote that application and signed it after I got the information that the other one was incomplete and unacceptable.

JUDGE WILSON: Then why did you write another one in March, which you are now producing before us?