Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-11

ADV DE JAGER: So, you ran, perhaps you could tell us, did you run in the direction of King Street, as you say?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: From Calla Street to King Street.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, and then you continued running down King Street and did he then enter King Street after jumping the fence?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: And did you only start shooting then after he entered King Street or did you also when getting out of the car, did you fire shots at that time?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I didn't start shooting when I alighted from the car.

ADV DE JAGER: And at the time when you were in King Street, were you the only policeman in King Street or were the other members following you too?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: They were spread around and the time when I moved from Calla Street to King Street, I could hear gunshots on the other side.  But when I entered King Street, Morakile was behind him.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, who is Morakile?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is Constable David Morakile.

ADV DE JAGER: But in paragraph 14 I don't see the name of Morakile?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Where in paragraph 14, sir?

ADV DE JAGER: Well, I, Mamome, Mtyala, Lesale, Miningwa and Warrant Officer Ramosoeu were involved in this incident.  You didn't mention Morakile there.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is why I said there are names which I didn't mention.  But he was present.

ADV DE JAGER: It is the first time that you are mentioning him now.

CHAIRPERSON: No, he mentioned him earlier.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, then I have made a mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: At the end of his evidence in chief.

ADV DE JAGER: I am sorry Mr Chairman, my note and Mr Visser specifically asked him were only the six of you involved and the names mentioned were Mamome, Mtyala, Lesale, Miningwa and Ramosoeu and myself.

CHAIRPERSON: At the end of his evidence in chief, he said I entered King Street just in front of him, that is Constable Morakile who was shooting in that direction.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: It was shortly before the adjournment.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, I referred to another note, yes.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, yesterday it was put to Mr Motsamai that it would appear that the person who shot at Matthew Mzuzwana is one Ramolife and that was common cause.  You will recall that Mr Motsamai testified that the Mzuzwana was shot by one Mogashani.  It has now been brought to our attention that in fact Mogashani is the first name and Ramolife is the surname.
	So there is no contradiction and I think the legal representatives of the other policemen accept that there is no contradiction in that regard.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, yes, nothing turns on the point any way, we know that he was shot.  That really is, and we know that he was shot by a Riot policeman, so that really is, whatever he was called.
	Perhaps this is the one question that I should ask you.  When Mamome comes running into the office and he says to you we are going to arrest Oupa Makhubalo, I take it you knew or did he tell you, that it was for the murder of Gosi?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He said that we knew that.

MR VISSER: Yes, didn't you tell him immediately that you were listening on the bugging device that was installed in the hall and you should not go and arrest Oupa Makhubalo because he was together with White Mohapi, the two people who tried to stop the people from assaulting Gosi?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: We knew that we were harassing him.

MR VISSER: He was the man who tried to protect Gosi according to your evidence.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Visser, why would he have to see that, he didn't see what happened?

MR VISSER: He gave evidence to say that he heard over the earphones what was going on in the hall and he gave explicit evidence to say Oupa Makhubalo tried to keep the people off him.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: How would he know that his colleagues got some information.  It may be from eyewitnesses.  Should he possibly question that merely because he was listening to some device?

MR VISSER: All right, Mr Chairman, I have made the point, I leave it there.  I want to refer you to Bundle A, page 23 and at the same time Bundle C, page 12.
	And I want to ask you a few short questions which I am sure you will have no difficulty in comprehending and answering.  Do you know Mr White Mohapi?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Please be patient before I answer that question.  I was looking at Bundle C, which page did you say I should refer to?

MR VISSER: I am sorry, you can turn to page 24 of Bundle A and page 12 of Bundle C.   Bundle A, I am going to refer to page 24 specifically, it starts on page 23 Mr Chairman.  It is the issue of White Mohapi, A on page 23 of Bundle A and I am going to ask questions from the bottom line of page 24.
	Yes, when I refer to White Mohapi, you know exactly who I am referring to?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Was there a time when yourself, Mr Mtyala and Mr Ngo sat in a motorcar where you received a radio message that White Mohapi had been kidnapped, do you remember that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I don't remember it well.

MR VISSER: All right.  Is it true that you went to an open field between Bloemspruit and Shannon where White Mohapi was taken out of a motor vehicle and beaten with crowbars and hammers?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I think this is based on what Ngo would have said and if that is the case, it will be recalled that Ngo said he was confusing names and when he was referring to Motsamai in this incident, he meant Mtyala.

MR VISSER: But how does that affect my question, Mr Chairman.  I've got in right in front of me, the witness can react to that.
	Were you present when White Mohapi was assaulted in a veld between Bloemspruit and Shannon with crowbars and hammers?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I was not present.  I don't know well.  Maybe this man, Ngo, as I learnt or heard when he gave evidence, that there were people who had balaclavas.  Maybe he thought that somebody amongst those people was myself who were assaulting that person.

MR VISSER: yes, but the bottom line is you know nothing about this incident?  And you were not present, you didn't participate?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I would say that.  But before he went to the cell, I was present.  When he was assaulted there, I was not there.  Maybe Ngo made a mistake in identity.

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, if I refer to Papie or Jeje, will you understand that I am referring to a person who was found dead and which corpse had a T-shirt of the UDF on?  Are you able to identify the incident I am talking about now?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I don't know about that incident of death, no because as I listened when Ngo was giving evidence, it seems as if he mixed names.  My name and Mtyala's names were used as well.

MR VISSER: I see.  So can we accept that to cut a long story short, that you were not party to any attack on the person in a veld, near a stream which I have just described to you?  You were not part of such an attack?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  Mr Motsamai, that was quite brief.  Mr Motsamai, I want to put it to you that Mr Nicos was never a subject of investigation by the Security Branch for political activities and there was no file kept on him in the Security Branch.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: They have hidden information from - he had a file.  That is the person whom they used to monitor.  That is true.  He had a file.

MR VISSER: In his cross-examination Mr Stander put to you and you agreed, that there were other businessmen who sympathised with the cause of the comrades and who gave them money, do you remember that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I remember that when I said they used to request money for help to continue with the political activity.  I remember that.