Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-21

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, perhaps as requested by Committee Member, Adv Motata, I want to support what he said.  Seeing that this amendment impacts actually on full disclosure and it has got a bearing on Section 20, Subsection 2 of the Act, I would have expected my learned friend to give reasons why an amendment is done now and why he could not, why this was not mentioned in all the documents, seeing that it is of vital importance in as far as the act is concerned.  If he can give reasons why this amendment then I have no objection to the application.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Hendrickse, just to take it further from what Adv Mpshe has put up.  If one takes a look at Section 11b of the application form, the applicant describes his actions, 'as being done while acting in my official capacity as a member of the Bop Police'.  I think that in the light of this, perhaps what Adv Mpshe and Adv Motata have said there should perhaps be more substantial reasons for the application and perhaps that can be done at a later stage in the hearing.  Give you some time to do it.  I don't think we need delay the start of the matter.  We'll proceed with the matter on the application as it is and then if you wish to make this application at a later stage, then that can be considered then but I don't think that should delay the matter now.  And in any event, it is not going to affect the hearing really because the question from what I have gathered from Mr van der Berg and Mr Terreblanche will be put on issue whether he was acting as a supporter of the ANC as opposed to his capacity as a policeman.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I will now call upon the applicant, Mr Menyatsoe to give evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Menyatsoe, do you have any objection to taking the oath?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I have no objection, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you please rise.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: (sworn states)

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Menyatsoe, on the 10th day of March 1994, you were then a member of the then Bophuthatswana Police Force.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That is correct Sir.

UNKNOWN: Is it also correct that you were stationed at head office here in Mmabatho, Mafikeng?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That is correct Sir.

UNKNOWN: Please relate to this Commission ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Hendrickse, if you don't mind me interrupting you.  Adv Sigodi has got a problem with the device for, the recording device, the translating device.
	Thank you Mr Hendrickse, you may proceed.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Menyatsoe, please relate to this Commission the events that occurred on the 10th March 1994, starting from the 10th March 1994.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: In 1994 I was at my residential place in Siweding(?).  It was in the afternoon whilst I was still in the house I heard some noise outside, some people who were shouting.  I went outside to see as to exactly what was happening.  When I got there I saw people running around on the streets and singing ANC songs and they were raising their hands saying that Mangope's government has fallen.  They were running towards Mega City and saying Mega City was on fire.  When I looked in that direction of Mega City I saw a huge smoke there.
	Whilst we were sleeping at night, it was at about ten o'clock, when one of the members of the defence force of the Bophuthatswana who also residing in the same yard, knocked on my door and explained to me as to how the AWB has arrived in Mafikeng and had taken control over the aviation defence force.  I became quite nervous when I heard him saying this because I knew that the defence  was the stronghold of the government.  And therefore I was scared that us as the police won't be able to control the situation should war start.
	I slept and in the morning I was supposed to be on duty from 6 o'clock but one neighbour who is also a policeman came to me and told me that he had made a call to the station and he was told that it is not safe to go dressed in uniform because of all the unrest.  He told me not to dress in the uniform and we should drive in his car to TTA to go and see what was happening there.  And we did that.
	We drove off in his car and on our way we saw some, the roads blocked with car scraps and stones and people were screaming that Mangope has fallen down and viva ANC.  We drove up to the head office and when we got there the situation was completely changed.  It was not the head office that we knew.  The police were standing in small groups as if they did not know where they belonged.  We parted with my neighbour and we went to our different offices.
	When I got to my office, I found some of the policemen who I work with not dressed in uniform like me.  A car was taken out so that we should go and dress in our uniforms and we were given firearms.  I was given an R4 rifle.  We got into the car and drove home to take our uniforms.
	People were passing in front of us and screaming viva ANC.  We could see that it is not possible for the Mangope government to go on because people showed that they were sick and tired of it.  And we also raised our arms and showed them that we are in support of what they were saying. (The sound is cutting - the interpretation cannot pick up all the information)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Menyatsoe, they are having difficulty translating.  There is something wrong with the machine.  It is cutting out from time to time I'm told.  I think if you could just go back to the stage where you said that you had taken your R4 and you had gone home to get your uniform and people shouting, viva ANC - if you could just go off from there.