Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

MR PHOSA: Oh well now, I've given you an opportunity to deal with that,  that's your answer.
	I won't be long Mr Chairperson, ...[inaudible] with this.
	Now, just about some gory details that I'll spend a little bit of time on them - on ...[inaudible]  You and your colleagues had ample time in which to reflect upon  your act, in other words there was a lot of time from the moment he was - they were abducted to the actual killing, you had ample time in which to re-think this.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, we had time - true.

MR PHOSA: In other words, there were various stages when you could still have changed your mind about it?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

MR PHOSA: Perhaps in fairness to you - you personally, you had already killed two others before so really it was no longer a big problem killing somebody?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, that is not correct.

MR PHOSA: You see Mr Erasmus said something yesterday - I'm not going to ...[inaudible] verbatim but he said at that time - that period, the dying of people was nothing uncommon.  Do you remember - you heard him say that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I can remember that.

MR PHOSA: But who could put it this way - now I'm not quoting him now, at that time the killing of activists was nothing uncommon?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No,  I cannot remember how many activists were killed at that point in time, I can't say how many, I cannot.

MR PHOSA: Look, now with hindsight - thinking back, you do know that at that time the killing of human beings - activists, was a common thing?  I'm not saying every day but it was a common modus operandi.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, activists were killed at that time, I cannot say why and at what intervals and how regular.

MR PHOSA: At what time was he picked - were these young people picked up - what time of the day?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: It was in the evening, I cannot remember the exact time.

MR PHOSA: And you stopped at a garage - at a filling station with them and bought diesel - petrol or whatever it is, an inflammable stuff?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, Mr Niewoudt has driven their vehicle and the two people were with me and Mr du Plessis.  The two of us did not stop at the filling station, Mr Niewoudt stopped there, we carried on slowly and he caught up with us after buying the diesel.

MR PHOSA: Maybe I'm taking you too much for - to your word, I thought this was a very sensitive action - activity, how could he drive their car and go to a filling station?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is what actually happened, we had false registration plates on the vehicle and that is exactly what happened.

MR PHOSA: Fine.  Did you - at what stage were they given something to put them away - to go to sleep, whatever it is - a tranquilliser?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I cannot exactly remember since I was not physically present when it was given to them.  It was in the evening but I cannot give you the precise moment.  I think or I suppose it must have been quite early during the evening.

MR PHOSA: Perhaps I'm jumping too much in my hurry to finish.  This is not the first evening, this was not done in the first evening - the tranquilliser?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, not on the first evening.

MR PHOSA: According to the tranquilliser, what exactly did you give them?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I do not know, I really did not see what it was.  Mr Niewoudt said that it's something he used during his studies to give him rest - tranquillisers of some kind, I do not know exactly what it was.

MR PHOSA: You know it wasn't something like Bioplus for rest, it was an - it knocked them out.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Well, not immediately.

MR PHOSA: No, no, but Mr van Rensburg, I get the impression from you - whether that was the idea and with your understanding, was to knock them off - unconscious.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairperson, the purpose was to get them to sleep so that we could then act, we didn't want to do it while they were awake - that was the purpose.

CHAIRPERSON: You have said in your statement Mr van Rensburg, that you and Warrant Officer Niewoudt went into the house and dragged the two sleeping people outside to - next door - near to the branches which had been placed on the ground.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairperson, if I've used the word: "dragged" ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, carry - you carried them out.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I thought so, I thought I used the word: "carried" - "We did carry them".

CHAIRPERSON: And you say the didn't - they had been given tranquillisers but they didn't wake up when you carried outside and put them on the ground next to the tree trunks there.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I suggest to you that it was not tranquillisers.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: This is what happened, I don't know exactly but this is what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: You know that - you were there in the Kondile matter, weren't you?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know that Mr Coetzee came there?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he produce the knock-out pills?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that knocked them out?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Well, it put them to sleep.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

ADV DE JAGER: But it must have been a very deep sleep if they were not unconscious, that you would carry them out and they wouldn't wake up?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Sir, I do not know why I should say something to the contrary - that is contrary to the truth, I'm saying what has happened.  I think the people must have been very sleepy, they were tired - we did not sleep well ourselves the evening before.  If we've given them something in addition, I would admit to it, I do not know what they were given.

ADV DE JAGER: But you will agree it was not the normal sleeping pill that somebody will take if they have sleeping problems?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I do not know, I'm not a person who has this problem, I do not know what the effect would have been.  I do not know what sleeping pill it was, I cannot actually comment.  What I'm saying is true, we did carry them to that spot, that is so.  I cannot say anything to the contrary.

ADV SANDI: Mr van Rensburg, were you there when these two gentlemen were give these pills or whatever substance it may be?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I was not present.

MR PHOSA: From the general reading of your collective statements, it is clear that this act was thoroughly planned, isn't that so?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: By this act I mean the entire - the elimination was properly planned.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I suppose as far as - to our capabilities, we thought it was thoroughly planned.

MR PHOSA: You were not going to pray them to death, you were going to kill them in a particular way, wasn't it - it was planned?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Completely true.

MR PHOSA: That they were going to be put to sleep, must have been planned?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I did say that.  I said that, I told my two gentlemen here to find a tranquilliser of some kind so that we can put these people to sleep so that I don't want them to wake up when we were eliminating them - I said that.  I do not actually have knowledge of these kind of sleeping pills and stuff, otherwise I would have purchased it myself but I asked them to get it for me.