Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-30

MR VISSER: You have also studies Exhibits A, B and C?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And do you concur with the content as far as it has to do with your knowledge which is embodied in the document?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I agree.

MR VISSER: And did you hear the brief introduction that I gave this morning with regard to how it came to be that Messrs Gordhan and Pravine were arrested?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct and I concur with it.

MR VISSER: I beg your pardon, what did I say?  That is Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla who were arrested.

MR GORDHAN: I don't have a split personality, Chair.

MR VISSER: May I refer you to Exhibit D and would you address the Committee regarding this incident?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, during 1990 towards the end of July beginning August I went to interrogate Pravine Gordhan in Bethlehem where he was being detained.  The reason for that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you proceed, Mr Botha, at that period of time what position were you holding?  I think just for the record purposes were you attached to the Durban Security Branch of the Police?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, I was connected to the security branch of Natal.

CHAIRPERSON: Holding what rank at that period?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I think that I was already a major or a lieutenant colonel.

MR VISSER: Just to put this clearly there was a Natal Division and a Port Natal Division, is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: At that stage Chairperson, everything had already been combined into one.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, I'm referring to previous times, you were connected to which section or unit of the security branch?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I was in the terrorism division which was divided into three components.  There was the terrorism investigation unit, the askari unit and the intelligence component.

MR VISSER: And who was the head of the askari unit?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It was Colonel Andy Taylor.

MR VISSER: Did he occupy the same rank as you?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Colonel Taylor was one rank higher than me.

MR VISSER: So was he your senior with regard to command?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And the other division that you mentioned?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That was the investigations unit which was under the command of Captain Hennie Cloete.

MR VISSER: And the third?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That was the intelligence component which was under my command.

MR VISSER: Very well and what exactly did the intelligence component do?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: We were responsible for the collection of information within the borders of division Port Natal as well as within the borders of the R.S.A. and then in neighbouring countries such as Swaziland, Mozambique and Zambia.

MR VISSER: You said you went to interrogate Mr Gordhan in Bethlehem where he was being detained after his arrest regarding the Operation Vula matter.  What was the reason for that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The reason was that there was information indicating that there was a mole in the security branch in Durban who had the name The Owl and this information was confirmed by documents which were drawn from the computers during Operation Vula.

MR VISSER: And to which computers do you refer now?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: These were the computers for communication which were used by members who were connected to Operation Vula.

MR VISSER: And did the security branch take possession of these computers?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.  I had reason to believe that Gordhan knew who the mole was.

MR VISSER: Was it important for you to find out who it was?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, it was necessary because so doing one could prevent any kind of leakage during an investigation.

CHAIRPERSON: I think for purposes of record a mole is a spy?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And undercover agent or spy?

MR VISSER: Yes, an infiltrated undercover agent of the enemy so to speak.  You are correct, Chairperson.  Please continue?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I travelled to Bethlehem where I spoke to Mr Gordhan in the offices of crime intelligence services of the security branch in Bethlehem.

MR VISSER: You're going too fast, please remember that the two victims are not proficient in Afrikaans and please give the interpreters the opportunity to do their job peacefully so that they can have the opportunity to hear what you're saying and undertake the interpreting.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Very well.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry Mr Visser, just one little point?  We've heard from Mr Visser that Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla were arrested on the 12th July.  Approximately when would you have gone through to Bethlehem?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, this was towards the end of July, beginning of August.  As far as my knowledge goes they had been detained from the beginning of the investigation in Durban and they had been sent out to other places for Section 29 Detention.

MR VISSER: And while the Chairpersons on that point, why were they detained in Bethlehem and not here in Durban?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: There were only so many cells within the greater Durban area which were suitable for Section 29 detention.  There were specific prerequisites that a cell had to comply with for Section 29 detention.

MR VISSER: And?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: And consequently they were transferred to Bethlehem because Durban was already full.

MR VISSER: Very well and you say that you found Mr Gordhan in the offices of the crime intelligence service of the security branch in Bethlehem and that is where you spoke to him?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Were any other persons present during this meeting?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The members who had been allocated from Durban to interrogate Messrs Gordhan and Lalla were Carl Duhr, Marius Greyling and Frans Bothma.  A fourth member who has passed away in the meantime was Warrant Officer Basson and he was also allocated to that interrogation team.

MR VISSER: Very well.  Now why did you go if they were already there?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: They were occupied with the general interrogation and recording of statements of the detainee.

MR VISSER: Very well?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The specific information which was required was not known to them.

MR VISSER: Please proceed with paragraph 4?

MR LAX: Why was that - sorry if you'd allow me?  You've got three chaps who are interrogating these people held in Bethlehem, why didn't they know what they were supposed to be - what the specific information they were supposed to be getting was?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, in a Section 29 detention situation the Act prescribed that the detainee had to make a statement and they were tasked with that.  In other words he would tell them about his own involvement and when there was specific information which would be obtained from elsewhere which such a detainee would possess.  Information would be channelled to the interrogator who would interrogate him about it.

MR LAX: Mr Botha, I'm quite aware of the Section 29.  The primary task of Section 29 is to answer questions to the satisfaction, that's the term used in that stature.  Now the people who were questioning didn't know what information was required so how could they question the person if they didn't know what you were looking for?  A general statement is of no use to anybody because it can't satisfy anyone.  Do you see my point?