Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR COETZEE: No, Mr Chair.

MR VISSER: Did you give orders to any of these people to murder Oupa Makubalo?

MR COETZEE: No, Mr Chair.

MR VISSER: Would you ever have given this kind of order like we referred to?

MR COETZEE: No, Chair.

MR VISSER: You have heard Mr Erasmus testify as to the presence of female members of the police in the instances of interrogations and searches of female detainees, do you agree?

MR COETZEE: Yes, that's correct.

MR VISSER: Can you give us a date as to when a directive came when female police staff had to be present in the case of interrogation of female detainees?

MR COETZEE: No, Mr Chair, I can't remember a specific date.

MR VISSER: I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Brigadier Coetzee, you've already said that you were not the author of the Venter murder.  Could you please tell the Commission, did you discuss the murder at any stage with a Captain Flip Loots?

MR COETZEE: No, Sir.

MR DU PLESSIS: Do you know Constable Hendrik Bokaba?

MR COETZEE: No, Sir.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did  you have any contact with Mr Ngo after he left Bloemfontein for Pretoria?

MR COETZEE: No, Mr Chair.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chair, no further  questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

MR STANDER: Brigadier, could you please assist us?  When an admission of guilt has to be taken down, we understand that the procedure was in Bloemfontein, to take the person to the local Magistrate's Court.

MR COETZEE: Yes, Chair, I can expand on this.  The custom was that members of another branch were taken to the Magistrates office.

MR STANDER: And what was done if a confession was not taken?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about admissions of guilt or confessions?

MR STANDER: Confessions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You said admissions of guilt or it was the interpreter.

INTERPRETER: It was the interpretation, sorry Sir.

MR STANDER: I'm sorry, confessions.

ADV DE JAGER: It was the interpretation.

MR COETZEE: Confessions, the custom was, if a person wanted to make a confession then members of another branch would take these people to the Magistrates Court.

MR STANDER: I understand there was a so-called roneoed form which the relevant Magistrate had to complete.

MR COETZEE: I don't have any knowledge of that Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say: "Someone from another branch", does that mean a completely different branch which is something other than the security branch or do you merely mean another unit in the security branch?

MR COETZEE: Any other branch than the security branch.

MR STANDER: What would you say would happen to this co-called confession or roneoed form, should a confession not be taken then.

MR COETZEE: Mr Chair, I can't reply to that.

MR STANDER: It is my information Sir, that such a document would then be disposed of because it is of no value.

MR COETZEE: I don't have any knowledge in this regard.

MR STANDER: At the time when you were still in the police, didn't you take any confessions?

MR COETZEE: Not that I can remember Chair.

MR STANDER: Could you please tell me, during March/April 1986, were you indeed in command of the black section, as it was called?

MR COETZEE: That's correct Chair.

MR STANDER: Am I correct if I say that if there were orders with regard to the activities of the black section, these instructions had to emanate from you?

MR COETZEE: Yes, Mr Chair.  Colonel Shaw sometimes acted on my behalf.  I had many other responsibilities, duties and I could expand on that if you would like to hear.  I was in charge of the IUP unit which protected the State President and Ministers.  I had duties at the border posts which resorted under the security branch.  I also had the five security branches where I had to do inspections, so there could have been orders not emanating from me.

MR STANDER: I understand.  But you say, on the day when the group of 19 were brought from the Lesotho border you gave instructions that people had to be made available to help with the interrogations.

MR COETZEE: Mr Chair, yes.  Colonel Smith at that stage told me that I had to make people available to Colonel du Plooy.  I didn't have a choice, I had to give the people who were available.

MR STANDER: Can you remember what you were doing that particular day, you yourself?

MR COETZEE: No, Chair.

MR STANDER: Wouldn't you yourself have participated in the interrogation?

MR COETZEE: Definitely not.

MR STANDER: Did you never participate in any interrogation?

MR COETZEE: Mr Chair, while I was at the investigative unit until 1985, I sometimes participated in interrogations.  [End of tape 3B - no follow-on sound as English only, tape 4A completely blank]

MR STANDER: Can you tell me, the placing of the group of 19 at the various police stations, who made this decision?

MR COETZEE: Colonel du Plooy Sir.

MR STANDER: The three persons who sat in the passage there, were they female members?

MR COETZEE: It's difficult to tell, I think one was a woman but I'm not certain.

MR STANDER: Do you know why they were sitting in the passage or don't you know at all?

MR COETZEE: Well, I asked about it and they said there was not space in the office and I left it there.

MR STANDER: Can you remember whether they were upset when you saw them there?

MR COETZEE: Well, they didn't appear to be upset Mr Chair.

MR STANDER: Were you very close to them?

MR COETZEE: Yes, Mr Chair, I was close enough.

MR STANDER: Can you give us an indication of how far away you were from them?

MR COETZEE: It could be a yard or a yard and a half.

MR STANDER: Was it the only time that you saw some of this group on that particular day?

MR COETZEE: Mr Chair, there could have been more occasions but I can't remember.

MR STANDER: Would you say that you could have been aware, had they been indeed assaulted on the day there?

MR COETZEE: Yes, I think I would have known about this.

MR STANDER: Is there a possibility that you wouldn't have known about it?

MR COETZEE: Mr Chair, while they were in the building I don't think so, I think I would have had knowledge of it.

MR STANDER: Let us accept then that the action of the members who committed these assaults acted contrary to the service regulations at that stage, then one could have expected them to have hidden it from you or have attempted to do so.

MR COETZEE: It could be so Mr Chair, but it would have reached my ears had somebody been assaulted while he had been in the building.

ADV DE JAGER: While we are on this point, if people shout and scream and cry because they are being assaulted, would you have been able to hear so?

MR COETZEE: Yes, Mr Chair, I would have been able to hear it.

MR STANDER: Mr Chair, may I just take instructions?  I have had a note placed next to me, could the author just come to me for a moment so that I can clarify this with him?  I ask for your indulgence.
Thank you Mr Chair, no further questions to the witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

ADV MEMANI: Mr Coetzee, in your evidence in chief you told us that at some you were investigating matters relating to terrorist and - I didn't hear the second thing.

MR COETZEE: All acts of terror and sabotage.  It was stopped at a certain date and transferred to the detectives and there were certain other cases which I can't remember now, I can't remember the exact date when it was transferred to the detectives.

ADV MEMANI: Now, isn't it so Mr Coetzee, that if people were arrested or detain, who were about to skip the country to join the ANC you've had had an interest in the matter?

MR COETZEE: Are you referring to before '85?

ADV MEMANI: I'm speaking in particular about the group of 19 now.

MR COETZEE: Mr Chair, ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: That was in April 1986, I think it was 6 April 1986.

MR COETZEE: Mr Chair, I didn't have interest in that particular matter except to detach people.