Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-14

ABRAM VAN ZYL: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz, you may proceed.

MR KAHANOVITZ: (cont)
	Mr van Zyl, yesterday you said that it was possible death or injury was foreseen, I am trying to understand why.  According to the plan in relation to the time that the Kewtown youth people would end their meeting, when exactly was the bomb supposed to go off?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: After they had held the meeting and they had left the hall.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but was it supposed to be two minutes afterwards, an hour afterwards, what was the plan?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, we would ensure that no one was in the building, and that is also why we waited so that all of them had left, and there were no vehicles in the parking area.
	It is difficult to tell you, it wasn't spelt out to me that it had to be ten minutes after they had left the hall or something like that, we would have done it as soon as possible after they had left the hall and we were satisfied that the situation was safe enough to activate the bomb.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why did it have to take place as soon as possible after they had left the hall, as opposed to at one o'clock in the morning?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Because for the police who arrived at the scene, it would have created the impression to them, that it was their own bomb that had been detonated in the hall, seeing as shortly before the bomb had gone off, they had held a meeting in the hall.

MR KAHANOVITZ: If the bomb went off at two 'clock in the morning, and the information that the Police obtained was that that was where a meeting had taken place, a few hours  before, what difference would it make if the meeting had been 20 minutes before, or a few hours before?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is the way that we discussed it and planned it and it is my opinion that the sooner the bomb went off, after they had had the meeting, the more it would have appeared as if it was their own bomb, other than if it had gone off long afterwards.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do you think your explanation makes sense?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes, to me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Kahanovitz, you didn't answer the first question, the very first question that you put.  If you were there, observing and making sure that all the people left, why did you see foresee the possibility of death or injury?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Mr Chairperson, because in such a case it is not always possible to be one hundred percent sure and to ensure one hundred percent that there would not be injuries at a bomb explosion, it is very difficult to say with one hundred percent certainty and to activate such a bomb in such a case.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But Mr van Zyl, at two o'clock in the morning, when there is absolutely nobody around, you could be as close as possible to hundred percent sure that nobody is going to be harmed or injured?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So, the reason that you were contemplating the possibility of death or injury was because on your version, you intended  to explode the bomb at a time that there might still be people in the vicinity because it was in the early hours of the evening, sorry, in the early hours, at nine o'clock on your version?
	You foresaw that at nine o'clock there might still be people around and one or more or those people might be killed or injured?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: All right.  Please go to Bundle B, page 5, the statement of Calla Botha.  The seventh paragraph from the top of the page, I just want to read to you what Mr Botha says happened.  He says
"... that same evening we met Isgak again, it was on an open field opposite the Bellville Holiday Inn.  He said that everything was in order and we drove with him in his car.  He showed us the hall in Athlone.  A way from there, he dropped us off and then he left."
	Let's just pause there.  Do you agree with that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Not at all.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What is wrong with that statement?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Well, it is totally false.  The first sentence, we did meet Isgak, it was in the field opposite the Bellville Holiday Inn, that is not so, it was in a parking area, where he had parked his car, and at no stage did Isgak drop us off in the Athlone area, we were at all times with him in the vehicle.  It is totally false, this paragraph.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Then he says
"... Isgak told van Zyl that the bomb was already in a cupboard in the hall."
	Is that statement correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Isgak told me at the airport, after he had placed the bomb, that he had followed my instructions, so I do not have a problem with that statement.
MR KAHANOVITZ
"... van Zyl wanted to see the exact position of the hall."

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I wanted to know where the Early Learning Centre was, because I didn't know where it was.

MR KAHANOVITZ: If you were going to arrive there for the first time, I assume you wanted Isgak to show you "this is the Early Learning Centre"  and it is in there where I had placed the bomb?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I assume he indeed pointed that out to you?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.
MR KAHANOVITZ
"... van Zyl gave Isgak a computer  on the way or a calculator on the way, in actual fact it was a remote control device that would detonate the bomb."
	Is that correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is totally false.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What is the truth according to you?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I had the pocket calculator with me all the time, and only at a later  stage, I gave it to Calla.  But at no stage did I give it to Isgak.
MR KAHANOVITZ
"... he came back later and said that the thing did not want to work.  I looked at the device and could not find any fault with it.  It had to activate the bomb at 500 metres, we said that he had to go closer."
	Now, you say you gave it not to Gakkie, but to Botha.  On your version, was Botha going to depress the button?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, what happened was that I had the calculator with me, I just want to go back to that paragraph, I also do not agree with that, that is also false.  I had the calculator with me, I kept it with me, and I wanted to activate the bomb myself.  I pressed the button two or three times, nothing happened and then I gave the calculator to Calla who were sitting at the back in the same vehicle where I was sitting, I was sitting on the left, in the front, and Gakkie was driving the vehicle.
	Then he took the calculator, pressed the button and the bomb was activated.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did he change the batteries?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: After I gave it to him, I do not think he changed the batteries, he just checked.  The reason why I gave him the calculator is because the bomb didn't want to activate.  Then he just looked at the batteries, but he did not exchange it, we did not have extra batteries for the calculator.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What was the time delay from the time that you first pressed the button on the remote to the time that it eventually went off?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It is very difficult to say, because things happen very quickly at such a stage.  I would say it was under a minute.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So, where Calla Botha says that he looked at the transmitter and he couldn't find anything wrong with it, is that part correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Is it correct that he said that you needed to go closer?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, at a stage I said, after the people had left the hall and they had gotten into their cars and driven off, I asked Gakkie that we should drive closer to the site, so that we could activate.
	At a stage, we were standing at some point and there I tried to activate the bomb and it didn't work.  We did not drive closer because the vehicle's nose was also pointing in a direction, pointing away from the hall, so we definitely did not go closer, so I cannot agree with that statement.