Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-06

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: And also it was not my duty to write a report, it was the duty of the Regional Commander, but the Regional Commander asked me to write a report and therefore it is simply and common sense that you are supposed to look at the report and make the necessary adjustments if he has to adjust it, omissions or additions and then sign it.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: May I suggest to you that it's more probable that the contents of your report are correct at this stage now, six years later, in your memory now, is that not more likely?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: My memories what?

MR PRIOR: Sorry, he's saying to you the probabilities, the probabilities - he's saying it is more probable that this report is correct and that your memory is failing you than the other way around.  That's all he's saying to you.  You can either agree with it or disagree with it.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: It is also most probably that we did not postpone because that - and that this information in this particular paragraph in question related to another operation.  That is also possible so let us put them on the same footing.  However, if you want to, I mean, convince yourself the way you want to convince, I mean then I cannot help you I'm sorry.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I'm not convincing myself, I'm putting something to you which you have given to us as the truth.  I'm telling you that it's either true or untrue and if it's untrue it reflects on your whole credibility obviously.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: As I have earlier indicated that I cannot go beyond this, I just cannot remember postponing the Golf Club attack.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: But you can't deny it's in your report that it was postponed?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I cannot remember postponing the Golf Club attack.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Just answer my question - you cannot deny that it's in you report that the attack was postponed once.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, once again, as I've indicated, this is my handwriting.  On the same breath I cannot recall postponing the Golf Club attack and I don't go beyond that.

MR PRIOR: Let me just try and help you here.  Look, it's really very simple.  If you can't recall whether it was postponed or not then you can't recall that.  It may well have been postponed, you simply can't remember it, that's all.  I think we should just leave it at that.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: This is obviously linked to the whole set up for the attack though and the reasons for the attack.  It's vital.

MR PRIOR: Ja, but he can't remember it, so it - you see he can't take it any further.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: With respect, surely there's a duty on him, we've come here for amnesty, to be honest and frank with this Committee in every respect..[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: That does not mean that he can make his memory effective for six years ago, I afraid Mr Stanford.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I accept and nor anybody else's memory that is why I put - that is more likely this report is correct than his memory is correct.

MR MBANDAZYO: Mr Chairman, just to come again on this point.  Mr Chairman, I think the applicant has put it clearly on this point that there's one operation he remembers postponing but he can't remember the Golf Club.

CHAIRPERSON: I agree.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I accept then I won't take it further.  I just want to make that point because it's a very important one.  Now from whom do you get - rather let me rephrase it this way - in your earlier evidence you said that the - didn't know his name - that the person in the King William's Town Golf Club who you thought was an official there, told you that there were going to be high ranking people there at the party, high ranking officers, police personnel because the party was to be hosted by Mr Radie, a member of parliament, a Nationalist member of parliament, is that right?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, just remove the part which says the party will be hosted by Mr Radie.  The one who received the information to the effect that he's going to be present.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Did he just say Mr Radie was going to be present?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: And from that did you then draw the conclusion that there would be military personnel and police all there and so on?  Did you draw up that conclusion yourself?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, besides drawing a conclusion it was said or it had been stated categorically that the high ranking military personnel, security personnel would be there.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Did he say so?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Yes.  Quite many sources.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I beg your pardon?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Quite many sources.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I didn't get the last bit.

MR PRIOR: He's saying many different sources gave that information and that led them to that conclusion.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: Did you do anything to try and verify that information and make sure it was true before you launched an attack of this kind?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, because we're receiving it from the people who had at least an experience about the events or the occasions of the nature, therefore we considered the information could be coming from, what you call an A type of source.  An A type is very reliable.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: In fact you must admit now, that information was not reliable?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Do you want to convince yourself that way?

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: I'm telling you are you not convinced now that information was not reliable because there were no senior military personnel there or policemen, nobody.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay there may be certain parts of the information which did not correspond to the findings.

ROBERT NORMAN STANFORD: That's right.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: But the other part of information was as well confirmed.

CHAIRPERSON: I have trouble understanding this. ...[inaudible] Application, which you have sworn to is correct, and you say at page 10 "as the National Party Government was the architect of our oppression and their supporters approving of it's policy, their party at the Golf Club was a legitimate target as the members of the National Party will realise that the policies of their government is a crime against humanity and they are not safe if it continues with their polices."  You see that?  So you are aiming the whole attack according to your Application for Amnesty, was aimed at National Party supporters who were having a party at the Golf Club and they were the legitimate target?

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: I really do not see any contradiction here because the information we received is that there'll be presence of the security forces - is really, really confirmed, becomes logical when a senior member of the National Party of the Government in power, then is going to be present ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: But we know there weren't National Party supporters there.  We know that none of what you said took place and we know that this wasn't a party for members of the National Party so all your information as to the target was incorrect, not just one aspect, the whole lot.

THEMBELANI TANDEKILE XUNDU: Okay, with due respect Mr Chairman, we have talked about the presence of the National Party, we have not said everybody here was particularly a supporter or a member of the National Party but I mean I think it is logical to draw that conclusion that if the National Party is there, I mean at that level of Mr Radie, then it means his supporters as well and even the protagonist...[intervention]