Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

MR HEWIT: All right, so what you are saying to us is that the situation that obtained before you intervened was that this IFP leader was killing people who were not really even enemies to IFP, he was just killing indiscriminately.  To kill one UDF person, he might kill a whole lot of non-aligned people who were not even political, is that what you are saying?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is true.

MR HEWIT: And that was against policy as you were taught it according to you?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is true.

MR HEWIT: You only go for a specific target?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: Someone that you have established is UDF?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is true.

MR HEWIT: And was this person who was doing it the wrong way, was he doing it in broad daylight or were there any other criticisms about the way he was doing the killing?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Can I just expantiate on that point?

MR HEWIT: Yes.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: The person I am talking about did not only do this to the UDF, he also did it to IFP members.  If they criticised him, he would also kill them and say that they are UDF members.

MR HEWIT: Yes, and did you tell us yesterday that they were also not doing it, they were doing it in an overt way and not a covert way?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I said so yesterday.

MR HEWIT: In other words you objected to the fact that what killings he did commit or perform, were not done clandestinely?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is true.

MR HEWIT: And you as a Commander, Supreme Commander of the military wing, you believe that these operations should be conducted clandestinely, is that correct?

MR STUART: Mr Chairperson, if I might intervene.  My learned friend has adopted the habit of using the term Supreme Commander, my recollection of the applicant's evidence is that he has never used that term.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewit, he described himself as being first of all being the Political Commissar and then he was asked to become the Commander.  That was my understanding, but not Supreme Commander.
	He was in charge of the Unit on the return.

MR HEWIT: You were the Commander of the military wing, correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is true.

MR HEWIT: As far as that military wing was concerned, you were the highest ranking person?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, that is not so.

MR HEWIT: Oh, who is a higher ranking person than the Commander in the military wing?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: M.Z. Khumalo.

MR HEWIT: But he wasn't a military man, was he?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That doesn't mean that he should be a military man to be a Supreme Commander.

MR HEWIT: Do you agree with me he was not a military man?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I agree.

MR HEWIT: You after all, you told us, you were a trained MK operative?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: I think your affidavit earlier on talks about training in Libia, does it?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR HEWIT: Oh, it must have been one of your previous affidavits, any way, trained in Russia?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is so.

MR HEWIT: What other countries?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Tanzania, Zambia.

MR HEWIT: Had taken part in ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Hewit, just on this.  Are you saying, or are you trying to get that he was the Commander and there was no one above him in the whole hierarchy?  Well, I think perhaps - you know, it is very common in military set ups, that above the Commander, there is a political leader, for instance the President of the United States is the Chief Commander of the US Forces, but he is not a military man.
	I don't think - if we can try to cut down on the time on this one, we might be going around in ages and get no ...

MR HEWIT: Yes, all I am trying to establish from Mr Luthuli, that from a soldiering point of view, you were the top soldier of the military wing, that is all I am saying?  I am not interested in any political bosses you may have had.
	Would you agree with that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is so.

MR HEWIT: All right.  So you as the top military person in charge of the Inkatha armed wing, decided that the way things were being done in Mpumalanga and Hammersdale, had to stop and they had to change?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Let me correct this.  My going to Mpumalanga was not voluntary, I did not decide on my own.  I was sent by M.Z. Khumalo to go and fix the situation in Mpumalanga.  My duty was then to fix the situation.

MR HEWIT: Yes, all right, and you believed that situation should be fixed in certain ways, correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: One of the ways of fixing the situation, was that you would conduct overt operation, but they would be covert operations and clandestine, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: Another way that you would fix the situation, would be that you would not go and kill innocents in a house for example, if only one person in that house happened to be the enemy, the UDF, correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is so.

MR HEWIT: You certainly wouldn't give instructions for your men to fire into a crowd of people just because one person in that crowd was the enemy?  Is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is so.  Yes, that is true.

MR HEWIT: And that is the kind of thing that you wanted to remedy when you went into Mpumalanga and Hammersdale?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: Was that basically your approach in all areas where you operated as the Commander of the military wing?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: Because to operate in any other way, would hardly serve the political purposes of Inkatha, would it?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is so.

MR HEWIT: The killing of innocent people who were not UDF, would only alienate those innocent people from UDF whereas they may well have come over to the Inkatha side, if Inkatha hadn't attacked them?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is true.

MR HEWIT: And it certainly wouldn't be in the interests of your secret military wing, to do these things in broad daylight?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is true.

MR HEWIT: Because that was the very criticism you had of the way things were being conducted beforehand, it wasn't done clandestinely?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is true.

MR HEWIT: Can you please turn to page 247, you may well be already be open at that particular place, page 247, dealing with the Glover Remark, and at the typed page 37 of your affidavit.
	Do you have that place I have referred you to?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: It starts at paragraph 14.1 and goes to 14.5, correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Can we just deal with what you say in paragraph 14.1.  You say there, one day I was driving to Yamile's house in my blue Mazda 323, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: Vela Nquno and Baba Nene were passengers in my car?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: Were they Caprivi trainees?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is true.

MR HEWIT: And were they Caprivi trainees under your direct command?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: In Claremont, whilst driving past a group of pedestrians, one of the pedestrians insulted us by calling us Glovers?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is so.

MR HEWIT: And then in brackets is says a derogatory name for an Inkatha supporter?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is true.

MR HEWIT: All right, just let's pause there.  How many pedestrians were there in this group?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It was at night, I don't remember.

MR HEWIT: Pardon?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It was at night, I do not remember the number of pedestrians.