Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-22

MR PHOSA: You continued occupying the position of a Commissioner of Oaths, the sort of person before whom the truth is told, isn't it?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: You were in a position and you must have made other swear to you that they're speaking the truth, meanwhile you had a big lie in your heart.  You were sitting on a big lie.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is true.

MR PHOSA: In fact as we now know - at least as we know, there were two big lies concerning the death of three people that you would not have divulged at all to any person other than the three who were with you or the five who were involved with you?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR PHOSA: Really, when it suits you, you lie, isn't it - when it suits you, you lie, don't you?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, I have said this secret concerning these deeds, I did not divulge that to anybody so when did I lie then?

MR PHOSA: When you led - you concealed the truth from those who seek it, you are deliberately misleading them, don't you, aren't you?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: It is not so Mr Chairman.

MR PHOSA: You made a calculated decision not to mention or divulge this incident to anyone other than those who were involved with you in the two instances, isn't that so - the two incidents?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct, they knew about that.

MR PHOSA: I don't know why you emphasised the wrong part, I would expect you to say: "It is correct, I made a calculated decision that other than these here, no-one else should know", that's the emphasis.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: The statement is also correct.

MR PHOSA: Even when - may the Commission bear with me?  Even when last year the TRC, that is The Truth and Reconciliation Committee was listening to victims and your name amongst others was mentioned ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Can we please refer to where exactly that occurred Mr Chairman please - before this questioning is continued with because we're not aware of that?

MR PHOSA: Can I just rephrase that question, I'm trying to finish this without any further debates on this now.

MR VISSER: I'm going to object to that question Mr Chairman, I first want to see whether my learned friend has a ground for asking the question.  He refers to last year - I take it June 198, June last year, when there was evidence heard in this hall about Mthimkhulu and Madaka and he is suggesting that Gerrit Erasmus's name was mentioned or that he was implicated.  We're not aware of that as we're sitting her and we'd like to see whether my learned friend is correct.
	In point of fact Mr Chairman, we pointed out to you on the record, the only instance where Gerrit Erasmus's name was mentioned that is at page 44 and page 45.  Now if that is what my learned friend refers to then I suggest he puts that to Mr Erasmus.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible

MR VISSER: The document we gave you this morning, the two pages.  That's the only reference to Gerrit Erasmus, we made it quite plain yesterday in all of the evidence that was given on the 26th of June last year.

ADV SANDI: Mr PHOSA, should the question not really be: "When the Human Rights Violations Committee of the Truth Commission gathered here last year, that was a continuation of the process of seeking the truth and what was his reaction to that.  Is that what you're trying to put to the witness?

MR PHOSA: I am but I'm you see I'm at a disadvantage.  My learned friend wants me to give a page which I can't do because I've just walked into this, I would need to look for the page.  Otherwise, that's the question I'm asking, that's the question I'm asking.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there such a page?  Is this the bundle that you gave me yesterday - which I gave to you yesterday?  Surely you made a note of the page if there was such a page Mr Phosa, if you saw it.  What is the page number, is what Mr Visser wants to know?

MR PHOSA: I did not act on the basis purely of that document I was given yesterday, I was given instructions that there was an application by members of the security police and I assumed then that he was one of them so as soon as the objection was raised I wanted to stop and get instructions.
	So I'm only entitled to do the way I got it from, to go where I got it from so I'm busy doing that now.  And I'm not going to look for pages that I haven't seen.  I didn't see that in any page, I'm acting on instructions so I think I'm entitled to go back to my instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: What are your instructions, can your attorney give evidence to that effect?

MR PHOSA: No, I don't want him to give evidence, I want to go and get my instructions and since it's ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: From whom do you get instructions if not your attorney?

MR PHOSA: May the court, may the Commission - the Chairperson just bear with me.  I know how to get the source of information that I had got, I don't have to tell everybody how I am going to get it.  I need a stand down - it's a time that I'd would ask for anyway much earlier, I'll use that and use this for also finding out.  I don't have to tell everybody how I'm going to get that information and if it's wrong I'll come and say so.  I have no fear of saying so.

CHAIRPERSON: Five minutes.  I apologise, we did say half past two.

MR PHOSA: Five minutes will be inadequate now because I require it for the phone call, I require it for getting the information.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I don't think that should take more than five minutes Mr Phosa.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR PHOSA: (cont)
	Regarding the question I raised, the objection was properly taken.  My instructions - I misunderstood my instructions.  It is not so much that this witness was mentioned and that he himself objected.  I was referring to - I was going to refer because it never came out, I was going to refer to the application which was made in which the Committee was being interdicted from mentioning names of alleged assailants.  Now, I understood then that he was one of them, so I'm going - I'm withdrawing that question but I'm continuing in that vein in a different form.
	You are aware that an application was made before the Human Rights Committee of the TRC last year here ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: With respect Mr Chairman, may I assist my learned friend.  On the 11th of April of last year, certain notices were sent out by the TRC, inter alias to some 20 ex-security policemen, two of whom were Mr Nick van Rensburg who is here today for whom we don't appear today, and Mr du Preez, who is not here - who is not implicated in this affair.  The point that was taken was in an application to the Supreme Court of Cape Town, that insufficient notification had been given and that there was refusal to provide information as to what the matter was about.
	His Lordship, Mr Justice King gave a judgement in favour of the applicants, it was overturned by the full bench of the Cape Provincial Division and the Appellate Division upheld the judgment of King J and that is what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PHOSA: Did you become aware last year in whatever manner, that there was an application being made or intended to be made by alleged victims regarding amongst others, conduct of security policemen?  Did you become aware at all before hand or at any stage that there was intended to bring such an application?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: There was an application but the circumstances surrounding it and what it was about, I do not know.

MR PHOSA: Did it occur to you that there are some grumblings, in other words there's a lot of activity about people who are concerned and who want to know information about, amongst other things, the death of Siphiwe Mthimkhulu and Madaka?  Did you realise that the people are getting concerned about that last year?