Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-14

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Singaram you are still under oath. Understand?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dorfling?

MR DORFLING: May it please Your Honourable Chair, members of the Committee. Mr Singaram you had the opportunity yesterday to have a look at the portion of video 44 that was shown in front of the Committee. I want to ask certain questions first of all pertaining to that video and then I will move on to some other aspects.
	The first question I would like to pose to you relates to the position of the deceased and injured persons with relation to the corners of King George and de Villiers Street. Would you agree with me that as depicted on that - or let me first start with another question. Would you be in agreement with me that, that video footage was probably shot very soon after the shooting incident?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Sir with due respect we have to put the (...indistinct) into time frames. Now the video was after the event and I was not there when the video was taken. I had already retreated and had gone into the building.

MR DORFLING: Would you agree that it must have been shortly after the incident? We see Mr von Eggedy on the video who testified that in his perception he was one of the first people on the scene.

MR BERGER: Chairperson I am sorry to interrupt my learned friend but with respect it is not clear at all from the video footage precisely when the videos were shot. Shortly after the incident could have been 15 minutes, half an hour, an hour after the incident. We know for a fact that the ambulances only arrived several hours after the people were shot. So we are not sure at all how long the people were lying there.

CHAIRPERSON: (...indistinct) material to precisely when that video was taken.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair I do not put it any higher than shortly after the incident. I do not want to be exact. As Mr Berger is indeed correctly submitting it could be 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes. I am merely putting it as high as shortly after the event. I do not want to put an exact time.

CHAIRPERSON: Not in terms of the time shortly if indeed so. Very well carry on. All you can say is that you were not there when it was taken so you do not know when it was taken.

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: That is so Honourable Chair.

MR DORFLING: Now if we may with reference to the injured and deceased people depicted on that video footage would you be in agreement with me that as we see it on the video footage all of the people either injured or killed are positioned on the video footage in close proximity of the corners of King George and de Villiers Street and more particularly towards the south-western corner of the intersection between King George and de Villiers Street?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Sir what I saw at the attack, at the Cobblers, that is when I started firing. Now when I am confronted with video footage that is taken which we cannot put a time frame on that is put there, people could have been pulled there, retreated. When you retreat you pull your comrade with you and those things all happen after an attack Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that the question is; does the video show that the deceased, the people that were killed were all lying at the spot mentioned by Mr Dorfling?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Honourable Chair that is so.

MR DORFLING: And Mr Singaram would you further agree with me that as far as the traditional weapons that are strewn on the ground is concerned all those weapons, I am talking about knobkierrie sticks and the like, are all lying in close proximity of the intersection of King George and de Villiers and more particularly towards the south-western corner of that intersection.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, again my learned friend is not correct. The video footage shows the knobkierries and assegais extending some distance into King George Street. In fact they extend for approximately 15 to 20 metres into King George Street, as is shown on the video and as is shown on certain photographs which were placed before the Inquest Court and of which my learned friend Mr Dorfling has knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: The question being posed Mr Singaram is that all those traditional weapons lie - let me then rephrase it, lie towards the corner of King George and de Villiers Street and more specifically towards the western side of King George Street?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Your Honourable Chair I would like to bring Mr Dorfling to the inquest when we were shown the very same video at the inquest Judge Nugent intervened to say that the video footage does not go right down to the Cobblers. And besides the front end of the attack was at the Cobblers. So it is obvious that more weapons and more people would be at the corner.

MR DORFLING: Are you agreeing that the bulk of the weapons, traditional weapons lie towards the western side of King George Street and more towards the corners of King George and de Villiers Street? In other words to the northern part of the block between Plein and de Villiers Streets?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Towards the corner of King George and de Villiers, that is so yes.

MR DORFLING: I understood your evidence yesterday to be that people could have been moved northwards up King George Street after the shooting ceased. Are you saying that injured and deceased people could have been dragged away northwards towards the direction of de Villiers Street, is that your evidence?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: You know when you are in a situation such as that. And I have also been trained that when you retreat you do pull your comrade with you who is injured. You do retreat backwards.

MR DORFLING: Are you speculating or are you putting that as a fact?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I am not putting it as a fact since I was not there.

MR DORFLING: Would you agree with me Mr Singaram that if one has regard to the position where the bodies are lying of injured people as well as deceased people, as well as the positioning of the traditional weapons lying in King George Street and in the intersection of King George and de Villiers, that all those facts are indicative of people either having dropped and having been shot in those positions or having dropped their traditional weapons in those positions?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Sir with due respect I am not an expert as to how people drop but if people are injured they do retreat, that is a fact.

CHAIRPERSON: I think how is he going to argue with that or how can he answer that question as to whether they lay where the footage shows. As to whether the arms lay where the footage shows when he was not there. To ask him whether he agrees with that when he has told you that: "I was not there when the video was taken." He propounds a theory that it is possible that people may have been dragged by their colleagues. So I think that this kind of cross-examination cannot take the matter very much further.

MR DORFLING: As the Honourable Chair pleases. I am just putting the proposition forward that on the probabilities the evidence available is indicative of people having been shot and injured in that vicinity.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that proposition you are trying to put forward but to get this witness to agree with you cannot take the matter very much further. I mean if he were there when the video was taken maybe you know he could answer with some certainty.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair I am just trying to get the witness to indicate whether he is aware of any other facts that would indicate the opposite.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he have enough time to think about all that? Put that question to him.

MR DORFLING: Can you indicate to any other evidence that would be indicative of that not being the position of people not being shot towards the northern half of the block between Plein and de Villiers Streets?