Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-10

MR MOKOENA: Now from your evidence-in-chief it appears to me as if there was a healthy relation between the chief and the community as such, because the chief also allowed his people to go and assist Mr Jan Phasha in searching for the missing person and also even wrote letters to the school requesting their assistance.  Why would the chief be so much involved in the searching of the missing person, if he was involved with this moloi?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I believe he did that because he was under pressure from the community and the youth.

MR MOKOENA: Was there - prior to the missing of Moses, was there any stage where the youth and the chief had a direct consultation?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: ...(no English interpretation)

MR MOKOENA: I'm saying, prior to the missing of Moses, was there any stage whether the youth and the chief had a confrontation?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: There were conflicts between the chief and the community and the community was helped by the youth in trying to resolve those conflicts between the chief and the community.  But at that time there had never been any physical fight, they would be involved in verbal confrontations only, until the disappearance of Moses.

ADV SANDI: Can you just explain, what were these disputes about between the youth and the chief?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: One of the conflicts was that there was an allegation that the chief was misappropriating the community funds and it was said that he could not develop the community like other communities were developing.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, just for my clarity, are you still talking about the same chief you said would be approached from time-to-time by people from the community who had problems and they wanted to know from the chief where to go for assistance from a ngaka, a witch-doctor?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct, that's the same chief.

ADV SANDI: You say in spite of all those problems, people continued to approach the chief for assistance and guidance?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That was happening because the community respected the chief, they did not care how he was carrying himself out, but now because he was the chief, they really respected him.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR MOKOENA: Mr Phasha, did the chief restrict your political movements, or maybe meetings or demonstrations?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: There is a meeting that he disrupted and he told us that he doesn't want us to hold political meetings in his village, and that is when we realised that he was against the youth.

MR MOKOENA: Did he prevent maybe the, not necessarily the youth, but the ANC members, not being the youth only, the ANC, say the ...(indistinct) from meeting?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: When he started preventing the youths meeting it was at the time when we were launching the ANC Youth League, that is why I say he was particularly against the ANC Youth League.

MR MOKOENA: Okay.  And did he belong any other political organisation?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: As to whether he was a member of a particular political organisation, we did not have that, but I believe that according to his actions, or following his actions, it was evident that he was a supporter of a certain political organisation, although I may not be able to specifically say which organisation.

MR MOKOENA: I thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOKOENA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mokoena.  Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Phasha, in your evidence you've testified that before your brother's disappearance numerous people had died.

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct.

MS MTANGA: You grew up in a community that believed in witchcraft, would I be correct to say that?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is so.

MS MTANGA: Can you tell this Committee as to whether every time a person died in your community, did you believe that person was killed by the witches, or was bewitched by the witches?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: We would only suspect that he has been bewitched if there is reasons for suspicions, and then we would consult the traditional doctors, we would not just suspect witchcraft in any death.

MS MTANGA: Can you give an example of a death where you wouldn't suspect witchcraft?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Like I mentioned that a certain girl fell from her bed and died.

MS MTANGA: So in that case you did not suspect witchcraft?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Because there were no actions taken, I can say we did not - there was no suspicion of witchcraft, but Moses' death raised suspicions because it was further confirmed by the traditional doctors and it was at that time that the people started to suspect that even the previous death of that girl was due to witchcraft.

MS MTANGA: When you suspected that a person had been killed by the witches, or when it was confirmed by your traditional doctors that such a person was killed by the witches, how would you know what the motive of the witches for killing this person was?  How would you know the motive of the witches?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: May you please repeat the question.

MS MTANGA: I'm asking you, in the instance where a person is killed by the witches and you have this confirmation from the traditional doctor, how would you as the community know why did the witches kill the person?  How would you know the motives of the witches for killing that person?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: The community will learn from the traditional doctors.

MS MTANGA: Can you give us a case where a witch-doctor told you what the reason was for the killing of a particular person, and what did he give those reasons to be?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I don't understand whether you say I should give you an example related to the death of Moses, or any other death that took place there.

MS MTANGA: I want an example other than the death of Moses, another example where you knew what the reasons for this killing of this person were.

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I have been told that the traditional doctors would actually give reasons why the witches would kill a person.  I learnt that after the death of Moses, because before the death of Moses, we didn't have suspicions.

MS MTANGA: What did the traditional doctors say were the reasons for the killing of Moses?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: They said the witches wanted to use him or his body parts to make traditional medicines.

MS MTANGA: If your brother Moses was killed because the witches wanted to use him for their purposes, what did this have to do with politics?  Why would his death then be political?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: His killing is associated with politics because this doctor explained that Moses was the supporter and a member of the ANC Youth League at that village under Chief Mashabela, and the chief had actually tried to prevent the ANC Youth League from developing, and that is one of the reasons why Moses was killed.

MS MTANGA: Which traditional doctor told you this?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: This traditional doctor was not telling me, but he was telling Jan Phasha, from whom we got this report.  I do not know his name, but I know this traditional doctor comes from Taung in the Driekop district.

MS MTANGA: My understanding of your evidence was that six people were shown by the witch-doctor on the mirror, as people who had caused the disappearance of your brother, am I correct?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: May you please repeat.

MS MTANGA: Okay, let me put it this way.  The six people, Mamoghe Phasha, Reisiki Phasha, Reisibi Mashabela, Mamelele Phasha - I can't pronounce the name properly, but your father's aunt, were pointed out by a witch-doctor, how were they pointed out by the witch-doctor?  How did you know it was them who were behind the disappearance of your father?  How did you know?

MS MTANGA: From the report we were given by Jan Phasha, there was a doctor who was using a mirror to show those people who were alleged to have been involved in his disappearance.