Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-03-30

ADV BOOYENS: I remember now, you reported that to Goosen.  You then went off duty ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens, I think that is when Mr Goosen said leave him there to break down his resistance.

ADV BOOYENS: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Niewoudt, the next morning, did you report for duty at about seven o'clock, seven thirty in the morning?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you go back to that office?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, I went there directly.

ADV BOOYENS: Was Mr Biko still there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, he was still lying on the mat.

ADV BOOYENS: What happened there in the course of the day?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It was the Wednesday, approximately nine thirty, between nine and ten o'clock when Dr Lang arrived there with Goosen.

ADV BOOYENS: Lang was the District Surgeon for Port Elizabeth?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.  I can recall that Dr Lang offered Mr Biko some water and he instructed me to remove Mr Biko's clothes because they were wet.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, was that the first time that the Doctor had visited him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: From the time that he had his head banged against the wall?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.  That was the Wednesday.

ADV BOOYENS: It was about twenty four hours later?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.  I undressed Mr Biko and gave him some blankets.

ADV BOOYENS: Did Lang examine him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, he did.  On the 8th, I was guarding him again, Dr Lang had left.

ADV BOOYENS: Did he stay in the office all day?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, I moved in and out of the office, and on the 8th ...

ADV BOOYENS: Is that the next day?

ADV DE JAGER: The Thursday?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, that is the Thursday, the 8th I reported for duty again on that morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we go to the 8th, what did the Doctor say after he had examined Mr Biko?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: The Doctor and Colonel Goosen entered the room and I went to my office which was the one immediately adjoining, I wasn't present during the examination after Dr Lang told me to take off his clothes, I did that and left.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but as I understand your evidence, he was still detained there for interrogation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did nobody tell you look, you may continue with the interrogation, or you must stop it immediately or whatever the position was?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I was given an order to guard him throughout the day.

ADV BOOYENS: By whom?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: By Colonel Goosen.  Afterwards Dr Lang and Dr Tucker arrived there.

ADV BOOYENS: Was that on the third day, the Thursday?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, that is right.

ADV BOOYENS: Tucker is also a District Surgeon in Port Elizabeth?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, he was the Senior District Surgeon.

ADV BOOYENS: Very well, continue.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I then went off duty.  I went off duty at four o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you saying about Tucker?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Dr Lang and Tucker visited him again that morning.  I then went off duty at four o'clock and the next day I heard that Mr Biko had been taken to the North End Prison on the evening of the 8th, the Thursday evening for medical examination.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you have any further dealings with him?

CHAIRPERSON: What did the two Doctors say about Mr Biko that morning?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I don't know.  They once again arrived there in the company of Goosen and they had a look at him, and then they left.
	On Sunday, the 11th, on the instructions of Colonel Goosen, Lieutenant Wilken and myself and Captain Siebert went and fetched Mr Biko at the North End prison.  I waited at the vehicle and Mr Siebert and Wilken went inside and they received him.  
	They came out, they supported him, helped him to get in the vehicle.  We took him to Walmer police cells where he was further detained in terms of security legislation.

ADV BOOYENS: What was his condition like, according to you at that stage?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: According to me, he was ill.

ADV BOOYENS: Right, you took him to Walmer, what happened?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: At Walmer I removed his clothes on the instruction of Goosen.  Detainees were not allowed to be detained wearing their clothes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That was an instruction which apparently came from Head Office to try and prevent suicides by political detainees at the time, that is how I understood it.
	But there are other ways to commit suicide.  I think the instruction per se is not a strong enough preventative measure.

CHAIRPERSON: We now know that there were very few suicides of political detainees, or am I wrong?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I can only think of Mr Mohapi actually, so that is one of which I am personally aware.  I am talking about political detainees - there have have been others in the country.

CHAIRPERSON: What I would like to find out is this, there weren't so many political suicides to justify such a rule that their clothes should be taken away from them, is that not so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is so Chairperson, as I have already said, but I simply carried out the order, that is how I understood it.  There were many other ways to commit suicide if the person really wanted to.

ADV BOOYENS: What you are actually trying to say to the Chairperson is that you personally don't think it was a very logical reason?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is so.

ADV BOOYENS: His clothes were removed on the instructions of Goosen at Walmer police station, that was the Sunday morning?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you leave Walmer police station?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, and late that afternoon I was contacted to go to Walmer police station and I had to take the necessary clothes because we were going to transfer Mr Biko to the Central Prison in Pretoria.

ADV BOOYENS: When you arrived at Walmer, tell us what happened?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: On my arrival at Walmer Captain Siebert was there already.  I speak under correction, but I don't know whether Major Snyman was there, but I could imagine that he was.  Dr Tucker was there, Colonel Goosen was there, Fouche was there.

ADV BOOYENS: We haven't heard about Fouche, who was he?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: He was a Warrant Officer who was at the Security Branch at that stage and he was with White Affairs, and Wilken was there too.
	We placed Mr Biko on a cell mat, we carried him to a Land Rover, the back seats were removed, the cell mats were placed in the back of the Land Rover.  Those were closed Land Rovers, not the opened one.

ADV BOOYENS: A station wagon type vehicle?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.  He was carried to the vehicle on the cell mat, loaded in and he was covered in a blanket and we left for Pretoria.

ADV BOOYENS: Who was this?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Captain Siebert, Lieutenant Wilken, Warrant Officer Fouche and myself.

ADV DE JAGER: Was he conscious or was he unconscious?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: According to my opinion he was not fully conscious.  I don't know, I don't know any - I couldn't even hear what he was saying.  It is difficult for me to say whether he was...

ADV BOOYENS: He did not give any indication that he was fully conscious?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: He did not move or anything like that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is right.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you see Tucker, was he worried?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Again speculation Mr Chairperson, it did not seem like he was worried.

ADV BOOYENS: Let me ask you the following question.  Was Tucker there when you loaded the deceased in the back of the vehicle?  Did you hear Tucker say that it would be dangerous to take him to Pretoria in a Land Rover, you should not transport him?