Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-05

CAPT VAN NIEKERK: Chairperson, thank you very much.  Firstly I would like to bring something to your attention. Tuesday afternoon's lunch time news on Radio Sondergrense upset me a bit.  The news report said that Prince James Mahlangu gave evidence and two previously highly placed officers, Lerm and Van Niekerk, were implicated by him and that implies that I was criminally involved in the riots.  At least in an irregular manner. I did consult with Prince James this morning and he says that that is not the evidence which he gave.  If you as the Commission feel that that is not the evidence which he gave I would like you to please deal with the journalist on a moral basis. Most people know me throughout the country and regard me as a creep.  You are here to establish what the truth is and to bring about reconciliation and I believe that the Commission can
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establish the truth and that the Commission can bring about reconciliation but then the media has to bring correct reports.  Thank you, Chairperson.   Chairperson, just as an introduction I would like to say that in the time where I was in charge of the police here we had a secret file system where all the documents with regard to statistics and permission for funerals and minutes of meetings and so on and so forth were filed.  When I drafted my statement for the Parsons Commission I liaised with the Kwandebele headquarters and at the time I was in East London, quite a distance from here, for statistics and other details and I was informed that it did not exist, that they could not give it to me because it was not available.  At a later stage I drafted my statement and drew cryptic notes from my diary and also from my memory and then at a later stage I searched the safe myself for these secret documents and I could not find anything.  So what I am going to tell you here is what I remember from memory or which was in my notebook in the form of cryptic notes.  The second point I would like to make is that since the beginning I and the late minister Simon Skosana - at least I would like to put it this way.  I always concluded that he was very concise with me, there was no confidentiality between the two of us as such.  Thirdly I would like to say to you that the establishment of Mbokoto and the events which gave rise to the establishment of Mbokoto was not discussed with me.  I was not consulted.  It seems that at a later stage it was a very secret affair, it was arranged under very secret circumstances about how it would be established and how it had operated and so forth.  Consequently on the 20th December 1985 I stumbled upon the truth of this whole thing from Prince James and also in a
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newspaper report in December 1985 or the beginning of 1986 about the existence of Mbokoto. It is also mentioned in the summary which you have in your possession.  Chairperson, the evidence which I will now give is my own opinion out of what I saw, witnessed and heard and the assumptions which are made and that is that the Moutse areas were incorporated into the other areas against the will of the people of Kwandebele.  In my opinion it was done to increase the ground value of the previously mentioned place and this what I regard as a bizarre idea of making it an independent state.  The attacks by Mbokoto on the residents of Moutse are also, in my opinion, not launched to force them into that but to intimidate them and also terrify them and consequently try and drive them out of the area.  There were also farms available.  You referred to that a little while ago.  Saliesloot and Immerpoort and others which were there for the relocation of people.  Simon Skosana one day said to me that he wanted a larger territory but that the Republic of South African government gave him land which was already inhabited.  He wanted the land and not the people on it.  Chairperson, Kwandebele seldom, if ever, had sources of employment for people which would have made it very difficult for it to be an independent state.  Its only riches, in my opinion, were the people who were labourers in mainly the Pretoria area and also residing here.  It was an overnight state.  The larger majority of Kwandebele residents were opposed to independence and the only manner, in my opinion, in which Kwandebele could be made independent would be to do that by violent means and also to rule it in a tyrannic manner.  It could not be done otherwise, Chairperson, if independence was to be obtained other than
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in a tyrannic manner.   In Idi Amin style.  I am of the opinion that the Mbokoto movement was launched firstly to drive Moutse out of the area and also to quash all opposition to the idea of independence.  Immediately after serious riots pursued in Kwandebele at least 600 additional SAP members and three battalions of the South African Defence Force were deployed to the area and shortly thereafter the regiment Groot Karoo was also deployed.  It was the first soldier training which was sent here from Bloemfontein.  The battalion Groot Karoo.   The defence forces made it their business to stabilise the area and to protect lives and property.  On operational centre was established from where their operations were coordinated and controlled.  Chairperson, the Republic of South African government failed to intervene and resolve the problems in Kwandebele and in my opinion the problems in Kwandebele would only have been able to have been resolved if the Republic of South African government had intervened and dissolved the parliament and fired the cabinet and also appointed an administrator to rule the area.  General Hans Muller telephoned me and asked me if I had a suggestion which he could give to the security council of the Republic of South Africa with regards to solving the problem of riots in the area.  And I said to him if he would stand at his fax machine I would fax him my suggestion immediately and I would like to mention to you that I suspected that my telephone was being bugged by national intelligence and due to that fact I did not want to discuss it with him telephonically but rather would fax it to him and my fax said that the Constitution had to be suspended.  The government had to be released and that an administrator had
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to be appointed to administer the affairs in Kwandebele until a more acceptable political development occurred.  I believe that General Muller would have done that.   Chairperson, the solution which the Republic of South African government had was to withdraw me.   At a later stage they also sat with their hands folded and watched how General Muller - and you can just imagine, he was the commanding officer of the South African Defence Force commanding the Northern Transvaal which incorporated Moutse and Kwandebele - and they sat back with folded hands and watched how General Muller was declared a persona non grata in Kwandebele and also watched with folded hands how Brigadier De Swardt, who was then a colonel, was also sent from Kwandebele, out of Kwandebele and that was done because Gwandyema who was the king or the ruler at the time donated sheep and cows at the time as gifts.  Moutse and Kwandebele's people, as you have already heard, had to resort to courts of law for just opinions.  Chairperson a matter which is of importance to me is my withdrawal from Kwandebele and the manner in which it was done.  You do have it in your memorandum and I would just like to add that I am convinced that it was not General Coetzee, the then commissioner of the South African Police, it was not his  decision to withdraw me from Kwandebele.  Up until before I was withdrawn he was in telephonic contact with me on a daily basis because I always said to him that I did not get along with the people of Kwandebele and he always encouraged me to hang in there and assured me of his support.  In 1990 he was on pension at the time already and he said to me in an apologetic manner that it was not his decision but that he had received an instruction to do that from Minister
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Louis Le Grange, to have me withdrawn immediately.  He also said to me that the minister would have released a few buttons, as a manner of speaking, with reference to me.  I was also entitled then as Commissioner of Kwandebele, to a Mercedes Benz as a subsidised vehicle.  I did not use this benefit but I was always asked by cabinet members why I am not driving around in a Mercedes Benz and initially I said to them that I grew up poor and that my family would laugh at me or would think that I became a crook if they were to see me driving around in such a vehicle.  At a later stage I told them directly that I do not want to owe them anything.  Chairperson, I would also like to mention that in the last month of my commissioning days in Kwandebele or commanding days, I did not go and see the cabinet members at their offices but rather said to them that if they wanted to see me they should come to my offices and that was then done whenever they wanted to see me.  That is what I added to what you already have, Chairperson.  And I would willingly answer any questions which you might want to put to me now.