Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-02-01

MS DAMBUZA: Exactly, that is exactly my sentiment Mr Chairman, that he does not have any reason to be lying, and if he was lying in respect of his knowledge about the planned coup of the 15th January, it was such an insignificant - it was an event of less significance than the one of the 20th of November.  If he chose to lie, he would have tried to lie more about the one that resulted in loss of life and can be considered as more serious than the one of the 15th January.
	It is my submission Mr Chair, that he - that is Mazizi Ntisana, does not really say "I did not know anything about the first operation, Operation Sacrifice", he says "I knew that there were two stages, there was going to be the military part that was going to be carried out Col Duli and then I would come in".  And he does say exactly what he was then supposed to do in the part that he was supposed to play.  It is my submission that even the contention by my learned friend, Nodada, that even during the journey to Maclear/Tsolo he does not divulge what was discussed over the radios.  If there was anything of significance it is highly unlikely that it would have been discussed at this stage, for really - they could even be intercepted.  It is reasonable I submit ...(intervention)

JUDGE MILLER: He did say that he was in contact regularly with Col Duli, who enquired whether they were still travelling well on the road.  I mean that's what he said the discussions were about.

MS DAMBUZA: Exactly, that's what he said Mr Chairman, and it was not necessary for them to discuss any details at this stage, save to check on each other if they were still safe whilst they were still in contact.  And that is why I say that even his disclosure at this stage, it is reasonable for them to have been doing that, there's no reason for him to hide any other thing.
	And in respect of him and the other three soldiers, I do submit that Duli is a man they were used to working with and he had successfully executed a coup with them a few months prior.  Mr Mazizi Ntisana does not say - his evidence does not indicate that he became agitated or dissatisfied with Holomisa's government immediately after he took power, he said the agreement or the understanding was that he was going to take power for six months and thereafter he would release the power back to the people.  
	Now in paragraph 4 he does indicate that what happened is that the corruption that was present on Ms Stella Sigcau's government escalated and it, I submit, was sufficient ground for him at this stage to think that if we let this go on and on, things are going to get only worse.  He was not impatient as my learned friend has suggested, immediately that Holomisa took power.  I therefore submit, Mr Chairman, that enough or full disclosure has been presented to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Ms Dambuza.  Mr Malan, I assume that you wouldn't have anything in relation to that.

MR MALAN: That is correct, thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well thank you very much.  This concludes the formal part of these applications.  We have listened to a lot of evidence, there is some other material that have been placed before us which we will consider and we will formulate a decision in the circumstances, once we are in a position to do so.  So under the circumstances we will reserve the decision in this matter and we will notify the parties as soon as that decision is available.
	It only remains for us to thank you legal representatives for your assistance in this matter, Mr Malan, Ms Dambuza, Mr Nodada, Mr Mapoma, you assistance is appreciated.
	We will now take the short adjournment and hopefully in the meantime the rest of the matters would be prepared, so that we can proceed with those others Mr Mapoma, when we reconvene.  We'll take the tea adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS