Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: No, I served under various Commanders, Dirk Coetzee, Jack Cronje.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, did you say 1981 to 1993?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said you were under whose command?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: I was firstly under the command of Dirk Coetzee, after that Captain Jan Coetzee, Colonel Jack Cronje and then Colonel De Kock.

MS VAN DER WALT: You have heard what was put to Mr Ras that he committed criminal acts during that period in time, why did you commit these deeds?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Chairperson, it is correct, they were criminal acts, but it was necessary at that stage.  It was the practice, the opportunities were created for us in these incidents during which we could take action and if the information was available, we would act.

MS VAN DER WALT: Against whom did you act?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Against ANC members or trained ANC members who were entering the country or unless there was information indicating where they lived in neighbouring countries, we would also act in those circumstances.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Van Dyk, the trained ANC terrorists who entered the country, they didn't come here to have a tea party, is that correct?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: No, the landmine explosions, the bomb explosions, the Wimpy incident, Amanzimtoti incident and the Church Street bombings, all testify to that.

MS VAN DER WALT: They also committed acts of terror?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Against innocent people?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you try to maintain the government of the day by combating those acts of terror or acts or murder?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: You were also present when Mr De Kock initially gave his evidence with regards to Vlakplaas.  Do you agree with his evidence regarding Vlakplaas?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes, I agree with that, it is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And do you also request that that evidence be considered by this Committee on your behalf?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you have also studied the evidence given by Gen Van der Merwe and do you also request that his evidence be incorporated with your evidence?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Then for this incident you request amnesty for the death of the person who was killed there?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Any other offence which may emanate from your actions as well as any illegalities?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Van der Walt.  Mr Prinsloo, do you have any questions you would like to put to the witness?

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr De Kock, during this incident, did you regard it as a war which reigned between the then government and the ANC?

MR MALAN: I assume you refer to Mr Van Dyk?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes, that is correct Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And did you, during these incidents when you committed these acts, were you aware of previous acts which were committed in the Eastern Transvaal where the ANC had exploded several bombs in Volksrust where a boy was severely injured and people were killed at Davel and Carolina and Breyten?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: There was a high intensity of attacks from Swaziland?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And many people came over to Swaziland from Mozambique and necessarily had to come into South Africa?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes, Chairperson, that was common knowledge.

MR PRINSLOO: No further questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, do you have any questions you would like to put?

MR HATTINGH: No thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Cornelius, I was negligent and missed you.

MR CORNELIUS: I am known for my brevity, I have no questions thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens?

MR BOOYENS: No questions, thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen?

MR JANSEN: No questions, thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: No questions Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moerane?

MR MOERANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Van Dyk, what is your background before you joined Vlakplaas?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: If you refer to my background, do you mean from the time I joined the Police?

MR MOERANE: Yes.

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: I grew up and joined the Force in the old South-West Africa Police College and from the College I went and did some normal police work at the Uniform Branch and afterwards I was transferred to Oshoek border post and then Nesden and from there I was transferred to the Security Branch and since 1981 at Vlakplaas.

MR MOERANE: I see.  So you are one of the longest serving members of Vlakplaas?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes, I was there for a long time.

MR MOERANE: So, you must be familiar with all the doings of Vlakplaas from about that time?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: I am aware of lots of things, but I won't say everything.

MR MOERANE: I mean from 1981, is the murder of Mr Griffiths Mxenge for instance?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: Yes, I have knowledge of all those things.

MR MOERANE: Right up to the incident with which we are concerned today?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: I see you are one of those that deposed to a statement at Delmas on the 13th of December 1996?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: One of those statements which were produced from the computer that produced the statements of the other people that I have mentioned?

MS VAN DER WALT: What is the relevance thereof Chairperson, because this person, his statement is not the same as the others.  Is there a problem with Delmas, I would like to know that.  What is the relevance?

MR MOERANE: Mr Chairperson, may I continue with my cross-examination?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't see any objection, anything wrong with the question.

MR MOERANE: I have not made any suggestion or any insinuation, I just identified the statement, that it is from the same computer that produced the statement of Hayes, Theron, Barnard and the others.   I am right at the beginning of my cross-examination and I would appreciate Mr Chairman, if I were not to be interrupted.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MR MOERANE: Maybe I should come to the point, I put it to you that you lied in this statement that was produced on the 13th of December 1996.

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: If you can point out to me where I would have told these lies, I would answer you.

MR MOERANE: Look at paragraph 3, page 238.   The very first sentence in that paragraph is a lie and you know it.  It says
"... I, Martiens Ras and Johan Botha were tasked by Eugene de Kock to arrest the persons on the other side of the Swaziland border who would help the MK members with their infiltration."
	That is a lie?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: No, I only left out Mr Tait's name, but it was not the intention to tell a lie because I omitted a name.

MR MOERANE: You know what I am referring to and I am referring to the instruction that you were given, the task that you were given, the task was not to arrest those people, but to eliminate them, not so?

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Then why do you say that the task you were given, was to arrest them?