Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

MR WILLS: Yes.  And there's various ways of finding out about her activities.  The one is that you send people in and you, like happened at least for part of the situation in this case where you sent the C1 members in to infiltrate.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And the other way is just to interrogate her.  Not so?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That could have been an option.  We did not exercise that option.

MR WILLS: Why not?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Because we had enlisted C1 members.

MR WILLS: But are these options mutually exclusive?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I don't understand the question.

MR WILLS: I'm saying why can't you do both?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the option that we exercised according to my evidence, is the one that I gave testimony about.

MR WILLS: Well, as I understood your questioning, your answers to the questions by Commissioner Lax, you can't remember exactly what the instruction was from Col Botha as regards whether or not she was going to be brought with other terrorists or not.  Is that correct?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the evidence that I gave indicated that what I understood from Botha was that this Khubeka handled the terrorists and that she would have arranged for us to meet them there at the rendezvous point and the possibility existed that she would also be present during this rendezvous.

MR WILLS: Yes and so if she was present, if the possibility existed that she would be present at this rendezvous point, then it must imply that you considered talking to her because otherwise why would she be present?  You would make sure that she wasn't present.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, this would normally have flowed forth from an arrest, for us to talk to her.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr du Preez, did Col Botha tell you that she could possibly present, or did you just say that you thought that she could possibly be present?  That isn't clear to me.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: What I understood from Botha is that Khubeka arranged for terrorists to meet at Battery Beach, that there would be a meeting at Battery Beach and we would have arrested the terrorists at this point.  And I understood from that that she would automatically be present herself because she arranged the rendezvous.  Did you draw the conclusion that she could possibly be present there?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Sorry, Mr Wills.  Thank you.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Sorry, in answer to your last question the interpreter used the words "she would automatically be present", that implies to me that you expected her to be present.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, that's not what I said, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Sorry may I ask if the interpreter made a mistake in that regard?

INTERPRETER: I clearly recall hearing the applicant say that he used the word automatic.

MR VISSER: That was the Afrikaans Mr Chairman, he said
"She would be automatically there because she arranged the meeting."

MR LAX: There wasn't a mistake Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  So you expected her to be there?
You must have, if she would automatically be there, because she arranged the meeting.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I expected her to be there.

MR WILLS: Yes, so it wasn't a possibility now, she was part of the plan and she was one of the people that were going to be arrested that day, not so?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed Mr Wills, I'd just like to intervene on a point.  You say she arranged the meeting.  Do you know who determined Battery Beach to be the rendezvous point?  Who decided that the vehicle, the Toyota Corolla, containing the deceased and maybe other persons, go to Battery Beach and that you wait there?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot recall you mentioned that place or determined that place, whether it was Botha, or whether it was Jimmy Mbane, or whether it was Khubeka, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you expecting the possibility of a shoot-out?  In other words, if that vehicle contained three or four other people, you were there, your group was there, was there the possibility of a shoot-out?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: We were armed Chairperson.  One was always armed when you arrested terrorists.

CHAIRPERSON: So that possibility existed that there might have been a shoot-out?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It was possible.

CHAIRPERSON: What's your personal view on the suitability of Battery Beach being a rendezvous point in those circumstances?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I did not have a problem with it, Chairperson.  Many meetings were arranged in and around the city with terrorists for similar operations.

MR LAX: Can I just follow up Mr Wills, before you go on?  There's just something puzzling me here, it's just bothering me really.  You say that she was arranging the meeting?

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, I said that I don't know whether she arranged it.

MR LAX: But you've just said ...(intervention)

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Do you specifically refer to the place, or the rendezvous point?

MR LAX: Your answer as it was translated earlier was, she was arranging the meeting and therefore automatically she would be there, now flowing from that, if she was arranging the meeting, obviously the point at which they were going to meet must have been determined by her?  That follows, doesn't it?  It's a question of logic.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I am not certain of the facts as you have put them now, whether she arranged for the persons to be present.

MR LAX: Yes, but how would she know where they were going to meet?  If she was organising the meeting it was logical that the venue would be chosen by her.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: It is possible that Mbane may have told her where to meet.  I was not present when those arrangements were made.

MR LAX: The question is though that the expectation was that she would come there together with some terrorists.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR LAX: And you people were waiting there to observe the meeting and arrest them.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Mr Chairperson, I'd just like to finish this point very briefly before the tea adjournment.
Thank you.  The evidence of Mr Botha yesterday was that he was surprised that she was in the car.  This is obviously not your recollection of the meeting, you were expecting her to be there?

MR VISSER: There's a subtle difference, Chairman, as Commissioner Lax likes to put it, between he was surprised to find her in the car and he was surprised to find her alone in the car and we submit that that is what Botha said.

MR LAX: In fact he didn't expect her there at all.

MR VISSER: That is in fact precisely correct.  He didn't expect her there, according to his arrangements made with Mbane, he expected terrorists there.

MR LAX: He didn't expect terrorists there, he expected the leader of the group to be there, to be precise about it.

MR VISSER: Yes, but he did say Mr Chairman, with respect, he expected the leader of the group because that's what he asked Mbane to bring there, but he also conceived the possibility that there may be another terrorist, so when I say terrorists, I mean the leader of the group and/or others.

MR WILLS: My understanding, with respect, Mr Chairman, of the evidence of Botha was that the arrest and the fact that Khubeka was there was a complete surprise to him.  He wasn't expecting her there in the least and it was in fact a bit of a mistake,...(intervention).

MR LAX: A blunder, to put it plainly.