Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-24

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Sir, they arrested Charles Ndaba fortuitously because one or two askaris either Ninela alone, or Ninela and Goodwill Sekakane, spotted him in a street, recognised him, arrested him.  They then took him to C R Swart.  Ninela's affidavit was, as an exhibit says, he was beaten up for 30 minutes in his presence, that he did begin to talk.  Charles knew two safe houses, the Knoll and the flat at Brickfield Road.  Charles led to the identification and arrest of Mbuso Shabalala.  He was arrested sometime late on Sunday.  He was also assaulted.  Both of them were kept at the same venue, beaten up in each other's presence, as far as I'm concerned, and made to talk.  In the course of someone's talking, they verified these two safe houses, they raided them, they arrested at 10 o'clock on the 12th of July, Pravien Gordhan and Anesh Shrinker at Brickfield.  They arrested Siphiwe Nyanda around noon on the 12th.  They arrested Raymond Lalla at the Knoll at 1 o'clock, they arrested Catherine Mvelase at 4.30 on the 12th at the Knoll.  They arrested Susan Shabalala, I'm not sure where at around 5 o'clock.  That is how they got to a set of documents which gave other safe houses, but they certainly did not have the safe houses in Johannesburg and they did not have all.  So Charles gave them two safe houses, not all that you are claiming and Charles was not an informant.  If he was I would have been arrested at a gathering of 30 top leaders within the country, clandestinely held at Tongaat on the 18th, 19th and 20th of May 1990 and it would have been the biggest scoop for the apartheid government, because Charles and company were in the logistics protecting that meeting.  People came from Cape Town, Johannesburg, Eastern Cape to that meeting and F W de Klerk used it as he thought a trump card to put the ANC on the defensive at the Pretoria discussion and he failed, because he identified the Joe at Tongaat as Joe Slovo when the Joe was Siphiwe Nyanda.

MR VISSER: Are you finished?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: You are asked for it.

CHAIRPERSON: You referred in that evidence to somebody's affidavit.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is, what is this affidavit?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: It's an affidavit by an askari called Ninela.

MR LAX: Annexure F.

CHAIRPERSON: Annexure F, thank you.

MR VISSER: Page 22, Mr Chairman.  Incidentally that's not a matter that's ever been placed in dispute, Mr Chairman.  Mr Maharaj seems to think that it was.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Well it was, the two witnesses, Capt Botha and Gen Steyn ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Mr Maharaj, so is it your short answer to my question that the police received the information which I put to you from Ndaba and/or Shabalala?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Under torture.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, would it be convenient?

CHAIRPERSON: Right, we'll take the short adjournment at this stage.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on) evidence and cross-examination this morning about inferences that can be drawn from Exhibit J and that of course is something that we will have to decide.

MR VISSER: (cont)
	Yes, Mr Chairman, I am just rounding up the examination about Exhibit J and perhaps with the assistance of the witness we might go quickly through the rest of these exhibits.  Would you agree that Exhibit J2 is an exhibit that follows chronologically on Exhibit J3?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Not chronologically, it just happens to be stapled in that order, but the date is the 14th of the 9th month and the other exhibits, the next one J3 is the 7th month.

MR VISSER: Right.  So J3 came first?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: J3 is before J2.

MR VISSER: And J3 referred to an inquiry about a certain Ellen.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Sorry, a certain?

MR VISSER: Ellen, (E-L-L-E-N).

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: J2.

MR VISSER: J3.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: J3.

MR VISSER: And at page 16 we learn that she was being seen regularly in the company of one Dubbie (D-U-B-B-I-E) Zwelakhe and Amelia Mya, paragraph 1.2.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes.

MR VISSER: And that was referred apparently, oh well, the most important thing that I wish to draw your attention to is that in paragraph 2 under "Uitkenning", identification, it says, Zwelakhe is identified with Zakhele Charles Ndaba and a photo album number 4190 is given and the Natal reference 4/V/139 is given.  Is that correct?  And the Security Head Office filed number S4/62573 is given.  Do you agree with that?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Sorry I missed the question between FA and S4.  Did you introduce another one?

MR VISSER: There are three identification references, the one is the photo album, the other is the division Port Natal and the other is Security Head Office.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I see.

MR VISSER: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes.

MR VISSER: Now, the point about this, Mr Maharaj, is it not, is that this is a fax or a telex which originated in Middelburg in the Eastern Transvaal and sent to Port Natal.  Do you agree with that?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes.

MR VISSER: Alright.  So they know about Zwelakhe.  Then you see, if you turn to Exhibit J2, there's a reaction to that telex and what it says is that the informers listed there, all identified MK Charles, number 2 and it says Z Ndaba and it gives exactly the same reference number.  Do you agree with that?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes.

MR VISSER: So again, what is the inference you wish this Committee to draw from those two?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: The inference, Sir, is that J2 is put in by Capt Botha.  Now if you look at what is done there, it's simply a confirmation of the photo album and I'm saying that if I was the handler placed in the position of Capt Botha, I would be seeing all the report showing the interest of the Security Branch in different divisions on Charles Ndaba and that would alert him, if he is an agent, to begin to find ways to remove him from the profile of the attention that the Security Branch are giving.

MR VISSER: Yes, yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: And I'm saying, attempts were made, this is 14th of the 9th, June, Eugene de Kock's unit sent in people to ambush and kill Charles Ndaba.

MR VISSER: I hear what you're saying Mr Maharaj, I'd like to just confine ourselves to J2 and J3 at the moment, but I hear what you're saying, but would you agree with me that Botha could not conceal the fact that Charles Ndaba was the man in photograph 4193?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Fair enough.

MR VISSER: He couldn't conceal that fact.  In fact we know from J1 already that Ndaba had been identified by exactly the same references.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Okay.

MR VISSER: Yes, so all that he could do at any stage of the proceedings with his informer was to attempt to get him away from Swaziland because he wanted to remove him for fear of him becoming a target of the Security Forces.  Don't you agree?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I don't agree with that Chairperson, with due respect.  I don't know how to answer this question, when I'm asked to say that Capt Botha couldn't have taken action because I have had instances in the work of Operation Vula of making sure that a particular report disappeared from the files so that the action gets frozen.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Maharaj, that would presuppose that Botha would have had to go to Headquarters, steal that file and make it disappear.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No, no.  You don't have to steal.  You just have to make sure that a file begins to go missing for a while.