Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.
	He says 
"Yes, there are people from the black community in Cradock who can testify to the fact that you think that covert operations would be of any assistance?
	It was my primary task to gather information
Did you not think that there was need for dialogue to be honest?
	I did not seen any need for this."
If you had to have dialogue and have covert monitoring, how could you have anything meaningful, any meaningful dialogue with him?
I did my best to get the community involved, and I spent much time on this.
Did you have any part in this?"
	I would put it to you that the monitoring of Mr Goniwe and the other persons that you killed eventually was most probably done to establish where and when Mr Goniwe moved and not to find out what the true situation was.

MR J VAN ZYL: That is not so.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, I have handed a copy of a document which is relevant arising out of the questions put by Advocate Potgieter to the witness right at the end.  I have given a copy of that document to my learned friend and I informed him that we intended to put it in at this stage, because it shows how files of people from other areas really are dealt with.
	I understood my learned friend not to have any objections to our dealing with it at this stage.
	May we put this in as Exhibit 2?  I unwittingly broke into my broken Afrikaans, Mr van Zyl, but I'll return to the language that I am more familiar with.
	This is a document showing that what happens where an activist from one area goes to another area.  Are you familiar with the format here?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now this refers to Mr Matthew Goniwe, who has a number, Mr Sam Goniwe, could you please tell us what SM stands for?

MR J VAN ZYL: Swart man, black man.

GEORGE BIZOS: Swart man? Oh. (Laughter).   But he had no file.
	I genuinely didn't know.  I didn't intend to make - I thought it was some sort of code....

CHAIRPERSON: You could have fooled me, Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: And, Mhlawuli SM...

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now certain information is left out, and then you see that the sender of this in South Western Districts, that wants to know about Mr Goniwe and Mr Mhlawuli in respect of whom he hasn't got any files (the latter one),  and "to the information together with a copy of the statement, together with Sam Goniwe and Mhlawuli is known to you".
	Now if Mr Mhlawuli became active in - or anywhere in the area of the Eastern Province, would one have expected a similar document sent by either Cradock or Port Elizabeth to the South West District in order to ascertain what his background was?

MR J VAN ZYL: That is most probable, yes Mr Chairman.
	But this document shows me a few things at a glance, that I would like to point out.  It actually confirms a lot of things that I have said, Mr Chairman.  If I may?

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, let me just finish my question and have your answer clearly and then you may add what you want to do.
	Do you know whether any such request was made to South Western Districts in relation to Mr Mhlawuli?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, I do not know if it was done from Divisional Administrative...

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, if it was done, who would have done it?

MR J VAN ZYL: It would have been done from Divisional Headquarters, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And would this have brought to your attention that Mr Mhlawuli was closely connected with Mr Goniwe when you were given the specific task in order to monitor him?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes,  if that is the only way that we could find it out, but we had other means of information as well.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you do not remember the procedure envisaged, or evidenced by this document having been followed in that case?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, I don't.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  You wanted to say something?
	You are of course at liberty to say something.

MR J VAN ZYL: Thank you.  The SWD 4/A/102V8 at the top right hand corner seems to be their reference number for Mr Goniwe at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you say it's for Mr Goniwe?

MR J VAN ZYL: Because he is the subject of this report, Mr Chairman.
	If the V.8 stands for volume 8, it would mean that although they did not have a full file on him, an "Algemeen file" which is what the "A" stands for, that his activities in their control area was such that they had already reached volume 8 in their division, in connection with the subject.
	At the bottom of this report, we have Mr Goniwe's S4 number, which was the headquarters number, is known, Mr Sam Goniwe that I do not recall either, apparently with no file in their specific area, and then they refer to Mr Makawula, who I am convinced is Mr Gladwell Makawula, and they also say that he's got "geen leer".
	Mr Gladwell Makawula was a subject of Eastern Province, because he came from Cradock, he had a Cradock reference, both OP, CD which is Cradock and an S4 number, but it just proves that the branch at Middelburg had no access at the time at their branch.  Referring to them as "Swart Man, geen leer".  Which illustrates what I spoke about earlier, about the fact that the branches were limited as far as their ability to identify subjects fully at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Zyl, of course this all depends on your assumption that this Makawula was a Gladman Makawula who you refer to.
	Your explanations would of course fall flat if he was not the same person.

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.
	He is asking for the identification in the very last paragraph and that is so.  I am assuming that he is the Makawula that I know, or that I can remember from Cradock.  That usually travelled with Mr Goniwe.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
	Mr Booyens, do you want to have another shot?

MR BOOYENS: No, thank  you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: That's a relief!
Mr van Zyl, in this Eastern Province Security Police Branch, if you want to call it that.  Who had the actual right of life and death?
	Who had the power over life and death?

MR J VAN ZYL: About deciding....

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, precisely.

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, I don't think anybody had the right to decide on life and death.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we know that there was such power and that decisions like that were implemented.
	I just want to know if you can tell us who would have that ultimate power within the branch?

MR J VAN ZYL: I don't think anybody had it, Mr Chairman.  That is why I said yesterday that it was always my impression that Colonel Snyman did not act on his own discretion.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting that it was from further up?

MR J VAN ZYL: That was my impression at the time, Mr Chairman.
	I had no full knowledge of that, I had no indication of that, excuse me, but I just felt that knowing him so well, that he would not have given that order if it was dependant on him alone.

CHAIRPERSON: You know, many occasions through my experiences in Courts of Law, in particular the security branch, would record a lot of its activities just in case they needed to answer certain things in Courts of Law.
	In the instance of the murders of Mr Goniwe and the others, were there any such recordings just in case there was a need to explain it?

MR J VAN ZYL: No Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlawuli's hand was cut off, did I understand you correctly?

MR J VAN ZYL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to it?

MR J VAN ZYL: It was left at the scene by the body when the fuel was thrown over it to burn Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You saw that, that it was thrown over the body and burnt?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairman, I assume that.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, this operation, I am sorry to have to put it this way, but I can think of no other way to put it.  Did you enjoy it?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairman.
	To the contrary.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you do it?

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, I have asked myself that question many times.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let's hear your answer.