Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MR RICHARD: So that means, if I have a look at this cell, there were only five members in it, that's yourself, the three other applicants, ...(intervention)

MR DUBE: There were four.

MR RICHARD: Four.  In other words you don't count yourself as a member of the cell.  So that meant you would know each one.  Where they lived, where they went to school, who their parents were, and their activities.  Their day to day activities.  It was your business as their commander.

MR DUBE: As I have already mentioned, a person would be recommended and then another person would have to second that, or give evidence to the effect that that person indeed was suitable for the job.  I did know that, because as comrades we had to stick together, so that we would be able to work well together and build that morale.  That is how I can respond to your question.

MR RICHARD: With respect captain, that's not an answer to my question.  My question is, quite simply, and my proposition is straightforward, did you or did you not know the individual cell members well?

MR DUBE: As I explained that I was training them so I can say yes I did know them.

MR RICHARD: And you knew exactly where they lived, their family structures, where they went to school and what their activities were.  They would tell you.

MR DUBE: Yes, they would tell me, but I did not know their parents or their families in person.  That was not my responsibility as such.  I was the commander of the cell responsible for the duties, activities of the cell.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were responsible for your own security I take it?

MR DUBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So before you got involved with new members of the cell you would want to know their background, you would want to know all you could find out about them.  You would ask all this from the person who was proposing them, wouldn't you?

MR DUBE: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: So, my next question is, you say you were trained overseas, in Lusaka, outside the country, in the political and military skills of being an insurgent, an undercover operative.
	Now, when you came to South Africa in 1985, 86 as you say, isn't it true to say that on numerous occasions you would have to deal with the fact that members of your various cells were detained by the security police of the time?  I would like to know how you were trained to deal with that phenomenon.

MR DUBE: Yes we know about that, because the police were working to recruit people to use them at the time.  When I first infiltrated the country I established myself, I had to win the confidence of those people who were inside the country, so that it would not be easy for cell members to be recruited by the police.

MR RICHARD: That was not my question.  My question was, you had a phenomena that many, many people were detained by the police.  Various figures are given.  At that time 20 000 people were in detention.  Now you as a commander knew well that members of your cells would get detained.  Is that not correct?  Whether you liked it or not.  My question is what were you trained to do with a person who was detained and then released?

MR DUBE: In my cell?

MR RICHARD: In your cell yes.  I'm talking about the training that you got as a captain, a commander of cells, you spent a long time being trained.  Did you receive any training as to how to deal with this situation?

MR DUBE: Let me answer that question this way.  As I've already said that we would screen a person before they were allowed into the cell, that was the first point.  Secondly, I had been outside the country for years, therefore I would not just approach anybody in the street and recruit them.

MR RICHARD: I don't think we understand one another.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand your refusal to deal with this question.  Wasn't one of the great complaints about the system operating in South Africa about the ninety day detention laws?  That the police were arbitrarily detaining people for long periods of time.  Wasn't that politically one of the ...(intervention)

MR DUBE: I did say that.  Yes, it is true that people were arrested and detained.

CHAIRPERSON: Did it not happen to just about every political activist in the country?  That at some stage or another they were taken in for detention.

MR DUBE: Yes, people would be detained.

CHAIRPERSON: That is what counsel is asking you about.  These people who were taken in arbitrarily by the police, detained for questioning, how did you react to that?  How did you treat them?

MR DUBE: Firstly, Sicelo's case was the first where people, where someone was detained and released.  If you mean that I regarded every person who had been detained as an informer, that is not correct.

CHAIRPERSON: We were just asking you quite simply Mr Dube, how did you react?  How did you treat people after their detention?

MR DUBE: As I've mentioned before I did not have that experience until such time as Sicelo was detained.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the first person you had dealings with who had been detained by the police?

MR DUBE: Yes, he was the first person with whom I had had close contact.

ADV SANDI: In terms of, I don't know why Mr Dube it has become such a difficulty for you to answer such a simple question.  In terms of your training, whilst you were receiving military training abroad, how were you supposed to deal with a situation where a member of your unit or cell has been detained?  What were your instructions?  Did you receive any training pertaining to that situation?

MR DUBE: Yes we did receive training.  Firstly, if a person has been arrested, personally I would say it would be risky to maintain contact with him.  Secondly, I should try to get assistance with regards to information about such a person, about what was happening to him.  It was also not easy for you to determine just by looking at somebody's face that they were working for the police or not.

CHAIRPERSON: You seem determined Mr Dube to suggest again and again that people were working for the police.  Are you suggesting that the thousands of detainees that have been referred to were thereafter working for the police?

MR DUBE: No, that's no what I'm saying.

CHAIRPERSON: You are.  You're saying it was difficult by looking at their face not to know, to know if they were working for the police.  Whereas my experience in those years was that people who had been detained were treated with courtesy, with sympathy, by their fellows when they were released from detention, and they were not suspected immediately of being police informers.  What is your comment?

MR DUBE: It is difficult for me to respond to that because it depends mainly on the circumstances prevailing.  With regards to my situation I was an underground commander and I would not have been interested in recruiting someone who was detained, because I, as I've already mentioned how we recruited members, that was the way we dealt with those things.

MR RICHARD: Very well.  I will return to the point.  But now my next question is, as a commander who was responsible for knowing about his men, what did you know about the deceased and his immediate experiences during the periods 86, 87?  Were you aware where he went to school?  What school did he go to?

MR DUBE: I knew that he participated in the student activities, he was an activist.

MR RICHARD: My question was straightforward and simple.  Do you know which school he went to at that time?  If so, what is the name of the school?

MR DUBE: No, I do not know.

MR RICHARD: However, you do know that he was a student activist, so you are aware that he was a member of Sosco, the Soweto Student's Congress.

MR DUBE: Yes, I did know that.

MR RICHARD: Now as a member of Sosco do you know what his activities were?

MR DUBE: No.  Because as I explained earlier on they had a commander to whom they reported directly.  I didn't know what his duties were at Sosco.