Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-21

CHAIRPERSON: ... Wednesday, the 21st of October.  We are now gathered to hear the amnesty application of Bulengesi Justice Majosi.
	The Committee consists of myself, Andrew Wilson and Judges Potgieter and Khampepe.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  For the record, the Evidence Leader is Paddy Prior.

MR MNOWABE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  For the applicant, it is M A Mnowabe.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the matter ready for hearing, Mr Prior?

ADV PRIOR: The matter is ready for hearing, Mr Chairman.  The applicant is present.  My learned friend and myself have agreed that the bundle that was presented to the Committee be admitted in evidence as Exhibit A and that the statements of the documents contained therein are admitted as correct insofar as they reflect the facts.

MR MNOWABE: I confirm that, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Are you now going to call the applicant?

MR MNOWABE: I'm now going to call the applicant.

ADV POTGIETER: Mr Majosi, would you please rise?

MR MAGADE: I'm sorry to interrupt, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, if I might just at this stage before the applicants proceeds, inform the Committee that my name is Shelwyn Magade.  I appear on behalf of certain implicated persons.  We were served with the notices in terms of Section 19(4), to be here for the amnesty application of Mr Cyril Bongani Tusi(?).
	At this stage I would just like to place on record that we were advised to be here today and for this week for this application but we were advised when we got here that the application was in fact withdrawn.  And my instructions from my counsel are to just place on record that whatever allegations are made in that amnesty application, we will be addressing correspondence to the TRC setting out our clients' version of the facts.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, thank you.  Does that finish your job for the day?  You are excused.

MR MAGADE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR MAGADE: EXCUSED

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you.  Mr Majozi, are your full names Mlungesi Justice Majozi?

CHAIRPERSON: You may be seated now.

MLUNGESI JUSTICE MAJOSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh sorry, he hasn't been sworn in.

MLUNGESI JUSTICE MAJOSI: (sworn states)

MR MNOWABE: Mr Chairman, if I can proceed.
	Mr Majosi, you apply for amnesty in regard to the shoot-out that ensued on 1st July 1991 near Port Shepstone.

MLUNGESI JUSTICE MAJOSI: That is correct.

MR MNOWABE: Can you actually state what was your political affiliation at that time?

MLUNGESI JUSTICE MAJOSI: I was a member of the ANC.

MR MNOWABE: Yes.  Now you made a statement in substantiation of your application, which is reflected at pages 5 and 6 of the bundle of documents.  Do you confirm the contents of that statement?

MLUNGESI JUSTICE MAJOSI: Yes, I do.

MR MNOWABE: I see.  Now insofar as the incident is concerned, you said you are a member of the ANC, can you briefly relate to the Committee how it came about that you were involved in this incident?  What was the purpose when you actually were intercepted by the police, what were you up to?

MLUNGESI JUSTICE MAJOSI: We left Pietermaritzburg for Durban where we had to meet other MK members and that is where it was decided or where it would be decided that we would have to get arms which we could use to train other comrades in Maritzburg but the problem was that the weapons were not there and we had to go to Port Shepstone to fetch them.
	We drove in a car which picked us up at Ultra City.  We went to pick up the arms at Port Shepstone, at Gamalakhe Township.  We met other comrades there who stayed or resided there at a particular house belonging to comrade Bam.  
	We spent some time there trying to gather the weapons and we explained certain things or discussed certain things with other people.  After that our car came to pick us up to take us back home where we had to take the weapons to. 
	We got into the car with these weapons and we kept these weapons inside the vehicle where we were seated ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you go on, can I just clarify something?  As I understand the position, the weapons had been brought up from the Transkei by the ANC and you were supplied with the weapons by the ANC or by Umkhonto weSizwe in Port Shepstone, to take them elsewhere, to take them back to Maritzburg?

MLUNGESI JUSTICE MAJOSI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.  You've told us now that you kept the weapons in the car.  The weapons I think were AK47 assault rifles and Stechkin machine gun and ammunition in sealed containers?

MLUNGESI JUSTICE MAJOSI: We had AK47s, the handgrenades as well, Stechkins as well as ammunition for all the weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MLUNGESI JUSTICE MAJOSI: ...[no English translation] Comrade Madoda who was a member of the MK suggested that we stand guard.  We saw a white police vehicle in the area and after that we got into our car and we drove towards Pietermaritzburg.
	Along the way we saw this vehicle following us and they stopped us.  On stopping us they wanted the licence for the vehicle, there were four of us in the vehicle.  He found the licence for the vehicle, verified this with other officers using his radio and one policeman drew his firearm.  He pointed it at me as I was sitting on the left side at the back of the vehicle.  
	I had already drawn my pistol and gave it to Madoda who was sitting in front of me.  He is then the one who made use of this pistol to shoot the police.  That's when the problem started.  If you still remember very well, the police indicated that there were several roadblocks that we drove through where the exchange of gunfire took place.

MR MNOWABE: If I can just come onto this.  The policeman, Groenewald who was shot at the scene, was that to avoid being arrested?

MLUNGESI JUSTICE MAJOSI: We were fleeing with the firearms and making sure yes, that we are not arrested.  Our people were being killed at the place where we were headed.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The question is, why did you shoot the policeman, Groenewald?

MLUNGESI JUSTICE MAJOSI: He was also a member ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know who Groenewald is?

MLUNGESI JUSTICE MAJOSI: No, I don't remember him.

CHAIRPERSON: This is the Sergeant who came up to your car when the car had been stopped, the first policeman who was shot.  Why was he shot?

MLUNGESI JUSTICE MAJOSI: He had already drawn his pistol when the driver got into the vehicle.  He then drew his firearm, pointed it at us and stopped us.  We realised that something was wrong.  Already the police were following us when we had left where we had come from.

MR MNOWABE: You then indicated that you went through roadblocks and it's actually, the facts are common cause that - yes, that's all common cause.  What I just want to know is will you confirm, are you saying that these firearms were actually obtained in furtherance of a political objective?

MLUNGESI JUSTICE MAJOSI: That is correct.

MR MNOWABE: And that the shooting of the police and ensuing shoot-out that followed was in furtherance of this purpose, you had to hold onto the weapons?

MLUNGESI JUSTICE MAJOSI: That is correct.

MR MNOWABE: What happened to your firearm, this Stechkin that you had been carrying?

MLUNGESI JUSTICE MAJOSI: We exchanged gunfire with the police as we were fleeing and when our car was somewhere along the road it was shot at.  I now had another gun.  I took this firearm, got out of the car and exchanged or returned fire.  I was covering them because they were already shot.

MR MNOWABE: Was it ultimately recovered by the police, the Stechkin?

MLUNGESI JUSTICE MAJOSI: I think yes, they did find the firearms.

MR MNOWABE: Yes.  And you were then arrested along with Madoda Mkhize?

MLUNGESI JUSTICE MAJOSI: What I can say here is that I saw them last when we got out of the vehicle, crossing the river.  I was coming from behind, following them from behind trying to make sure that the police do not continue shooting at us.