Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-02

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  And then, below the central structures, you then had what you call the zonal structures?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  And then, these zonal structures, what did they comprise of?  What areas formed part of a zone, would there be two sections forming a zone or how did it operate?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Should I just try to explain this in detail?

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That's Ramokolope, Lepule, Ramokolope West, Moleleki Extension 1, Kumalo, Katlehong Gardens, Normal View, Seloma C and B and Kumalo Valley, all those sections including Moleleki, those they would form a zonal structure.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Was there only one zonal structure?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, that is Zone 5.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, Zone 5.  And do you have other zones, like zone ...[intervention]

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, other sections would form another zone, say for example zone 4, zone 1, zone 2 etc.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  So what you've described here, so that Nkosi Majola was a zonal structure of one zone, of one structure.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, that is correct, he was a ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: There were other Chairpersons of other zonal structures, like zone 1 and zone 2?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, okay.  And then below the zones, because as I understand it, the various sections come together to form a zone, right?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: The various sections come together to form zone 5 for example or zone 1, a group of sections ....[intervention]

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: ...[No English translation]

CHAIRPERSON: And then form one zone?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  And then, below the zone you then have the sections?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  And then at the head of each section was the sectional - you then have the sectional structure?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Which also has a Chairperson and a Deputy Chairperson?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: You'd have only one Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is the lowest structure you have?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, Blanko, where did he fit in, the Chairman of the SDU in this whole hierarchy, where does he fit in?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Blanko was the Chairperson of the SDU.  If there is a meeting of the SDU he would address the SDU meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: All the SDU's in Katlehong?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Section, in a section.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, in a section?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, he would be conducting a meeting of particular section.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  So there would have been a Chairperson of SDU's in other sections as well?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that.

MR MALAN: May I just make sure the, Blanko was the Chairperson of the SDU in Moleleki Extension 2 and Ndondolo was the Commander in the same section?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, you may continue.

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.
	And Moleleki which was under the sectional command of Ndondolo had different blocks?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MADASA: And all those blocks fell under that section which was headed by Ndondolo and chaired by Blanko?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

MR MADASA: And these blocks are from block A to block F in Moleleki?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MADASA: And you were the member of the SDU's in that section?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MADASA: And what about the rest of the applicants, were they falling under this section of Ndondolo?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: All of them, we were under Ndondolo.

MR MADASA: So Moleleki as a whole was your responsibility?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.

MR MALAN: May I just enlighten myself.  You gave evidence in the beginning that the community decided to have the SDU there but you the way you've structured in now it looks a top down organisation where it started at the central commander and then sort of decentralised.  How did this originate, did it start in Moleleki or was it brought down from top?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sir, the central is the one which has formed zonal structures and sectional command structures and sectional commander.

MR MALAN: Just to make absolutely sure, so the central wasn't a result of all the others just developing all over communities, it started with a central command and then devolved into all the communities?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The residents of Katlehong requested that there should be SDU's, then the central civil formed the central structure of the SDU and then the central structure formed the sectional and the zonal structures.

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Let's come now to the relationship between the SDU and the so-called ANC Youth League.  Give us the background - if I may guide you, were the ANC, do you know then and where they part of the SDU?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sorry, what about ANC?

MR MADASA: The so-called ANC Youth League, do you know those people, and were they part of the SDU's, and what happened?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, they were members of the SDU before.

MR MADASA: Yes, go on.

MR MOTALA: When the concept of the SDU developed, were there ANC Youth League members in Katlehong already?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, they were present as residents.

MR MADASA: Now you say these members who became ANC Youth League members were originally members of the SDU.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct Sir.  I mean those who were in Moleleki section were members of the SDU's at first.

MR MADASA: Did they later become divided from you, and what was the reason for that?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: All of us were patrolling together with them together with the members of the ANC Youth League, then after that they disassociated themselves with us because of these reasons according to the rule of the SDU.
	We did not want a sell-out within the SDU's and then when we queried that they became independent from us.

MR MOTATA: Just for absolute clarity, between you, that is the SDU's and the ANC Youth League, who came first into being, because we know that you were formed through the community wanting a structure like yourselves.  Now I want to know, between you and the ANC Youth League, who came into being first?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: When I arrived at Moleleki I found that the ANC Youth League was patrolling the area.  After some time the SDU was formed and therefore the ANC Youth League died.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what was the position in the other sections?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Do you mean other sections in Katlehong?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Though I knew something but I didn't have the fuller information about the situation.  I know that in Polla Park SDU and ANC Youth League fought.  In Ramokolope and in Polla Park it was the same situation.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that but I'm just talking about the stage before the SDU's started patrolling, where the other sections patrolled by the ANC Youth League as well, to your knowledge though?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: SDU's were patrolling those sections.

CHAIRPERSON: It's only in Moleleki where the ANC Youth League patrolled?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Because the section in Moleleki was formed later.  The SDU's were formed in the 1991 and the Moleleki section was formed in 1992, was established in 1992.

MR MADASA: Why did SDU structure in Moleleki, why did it take the role of the ANC Youth League?