Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-11

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I was not concentrating on what they looked like, what they wore.

MR STRYDOM: What were they wearing?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Which people?

MR STRYDOM: The people who carried the televisions and the hi-fi's and the other goods.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They were in private clothing, some were wearing over-all's, different types of clothing.

MR STRYDOM: Did they have any distinctive markings?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: What marks?

MR STRYDOM: Did they wear something similar amongst the group?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I said they were in different types of clothing, the people who entered my home, were the ones who had been wearing headbands.

MR STRYDOM: The people that entered your house, were they wearing white or red headbands?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I responded to that question, I said they had on red headbands, but their clothing I cannot really comment on that.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, and the group outside you already said that the only people you could identify with headbands, were the people that came into your house, so I can gather from that that the people from outside didn't have headbands on?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Some of them did have them.

MR STRYDOM: The witness said the only people he saw with headbands, were the people who came into his house?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: No, he never said that.

CHAIRPERSON: He just answered you that some of them had and some of them didn't.

MR STRYDOM: Yes.  The people outside, the group you saw with the goods, can you describe their headbands?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I said the people on the street were carrying different items, TV's and the like, some were wearing headbands and some were not.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, those people outside who wore the headbands, can you describe those headbands?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I said those headbands were red in colour and moreover there isn't, there was no time to check on what every person was wearing.

MR STRYDOM: The group outside, did you just see black people?  I am not referring to the people at the "koyoco", I am talking about the group with the goods?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The people who were carrying goods, were black.

MR STRYDOM: Were there white people in the group amongst the people that carried the goods?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am referring to black people, not white people.  I did not see any white people carrying the goods.

ADV SIGODI: The question is amongst the black people, were there any white people, it doesn't matter if they were carrying goods or if they were not carrying goods, did you see any white people?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: There was no white person amongst the group that were carrying goods.

CHAIRPERSON: There is a group of people that you saw when you looked through the window, some of them carried certain items, you mentioned televisions and you mentioned clothing.  In that group of people that you saw, do you understand that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there any white people?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I just saw the people who were carrying the goods, but there were people who were walking along the sides of the road who had been wearing balaclavas, but I could not tell whether they were whites or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you personally see any white people when you looked through the window?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I did not.

MR STRYDOM: You mentioned something about balaclavas, can you just tell us more what you saw about balaclavas?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Those were the people who had been walking on the sides of the streets, but I cannot really comment on them, because I did not see them properly.

MR STRYDOM: Again I want to refer you to your statement, it is written here
"... the group of people was made up out of blacks and whites.  The white people had balaclavas on and everybody in the group had white bands around their heads."
	What do you say about this allegation that the group was made up out of blacks and whites?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am saying there were people who walked along the streets, who did not go into the premises.  I stated that those could have been white people.

MR STRYDOM: But you did not know if they were white people, why would you have stated that that could have been white people?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: When they were still at Buwa's household, a "koyoco" approached from kwaMadala and a white Police Officer came in the company of a black Officer and they were loading a dead body onto a Police vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: And this white man, he had a balaclava on which covered his face?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You are nodding, I want to hear whether it is yes or no.  This white man was wearing a balaclava which covered his face?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Baloyi, you are referring to a vehicle that came after the attack, that removed the body of a person, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: We were very busy, trying to take the people who had been injured away, it returned, one "koyoco" returned to collect the dead body.

MR STRYDOM: Why do you say the "koyoco" returned?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It was coming from the hostel and we were standing outside.  We were not in the house, we were outside.

MR STRYDOM: How do you know it is the same "koyoco" that came back?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: All "koyoco's" are the same.

MR STRYDOM: So therefore all you can say is a "koyoco" came back, you cannot say it returned or the same one came back, isn't it so?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not know.  I think you know better how these vehicles operate or what type they are.

MR STRYDOM: I just want to put to you that your evidence in front of this Committee differs from your statement in that you clearly states here that there were blacks and whites and that white people had black balaclavas on and everyone in the group, had white bands around their heads.  Do you have any comment?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did not state that they were wearing white bands.  There were white people around because there were white people in that "koyoco".

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but we are not referring to the people in the "koyoco", we are referring to the people in the group and I am putting to you that you are now trying to get out of this corner by stating now that there were white people in the "koyoco".

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I have stated before that there were people walking along and they were wearing balaclavas.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Baloyi, let me explain this to you - this is what Counsel wants to find out from you, listen carefully to the question.  If you don't understand the question, say so.  You have now told us that the group that you saw when you looked through the window, part of that group was walking on the side and that some of those people who were walking on the side, wore balaclavas.  Do you recall that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you couldn't see whether they were white or black, is that right?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You confirmed that you did not, when you looked through the window, see any white person amongst the group, is that right?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The ones who are walking in the middle of the street, yes, there was no white person amongst them, but the ones who were walking on the sides, I am not sure whether they were white or not.

CHAIRPERSON: But you yourself did not see any white either in the group or on the side?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did not see any white person, but when ...

CHAIRPERSON: Shall I finish the question first because I haven't finished the question.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did not see white people.