Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-28

ADV POTGIETER: Alright. So if somebody wants to contact you there is a specific address that can be used?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: Yes. Sometimes they would use that address. However most of the time I do not get mail.

ADV POTGIETER: Yes well be that as it may. Your house, is there a specific address at your house as well, physically where you live?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: No there is no address where I live.

ADV POTGIETER: Isn't there a number or some way of identifying you house?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: No. Unless one would ask from house to house.

ADV POTGIETER: Who completed this amnesty application form that is before us?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: We got this letter from the ANC offices in our region, Alice.

ADV POTGIETER: Now when did the attorneys that are representing you, when did they come on the scene?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: Please repeat your question?

ADV POTGIETER: The attorneys that represent you in this matter when did they become involved? At what stage did they become involved in this case?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: At the inquest.

ADV POTGIETER: And just give us an idea roughly when was that?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: February 1993 when we were arrested.

ADV POTGIETER: Did you give an address to the attorneys when you saw them?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: No we did not give them an address. Whatever we wanted we would go to the ANC offices. That is where we would get information as to how we are going to connect with these attorneys.

ADV POTGIETER: Now more specifically in connection with the amnesty case when did the attorneys become involved?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: What happened is my father came sent from the offices of the ANC that we must sit together with the attorneys.

ADV POTGIETER: When was that?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: I cannot remember but three weeks ago.

ADV POTGIETER: So you got that message and did you then get together with the attorneys about three weeks ago?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: Yes we did get together.

ADV POTGIETER: Was that when this affidavit that arrived here yesterday was prepared?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: No we were not talking or discussing this matter.

ADV POTGIETER: Did you see the attorneys in connection with this affidavit that you have signed?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: Yes, I did see the attorneys.

ADV POTGIETER: When was that?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: On Thursday?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: Last Thursday.

ADV POTGIETER: Last week Thursday?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: Was it Mr Hole?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: Yes it was.

ADV POTGIETER: And did you then last week Thursday did you make arrangements for the signing of the affidavit or what happened?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: What we considered last week was that how are we going to get to Port Elizabeth and what we would do when we get here.

ADV POTGIETER: But I thought that it was in connection with the affidavit that you met last Thursday?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: That is not so.

ADV POTGIETER: When did you then in fact meet in connection with this affidavit if you met at all?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: When we got here we had to sign, when we got here yesterday morning.

ADV POTGIETER: Was that the first time that you discussed the affidavit?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: No that is not the first incident. Last week we did discuss in connection with this affidavit. But we finished off here yesterday.

ADV POTGIETER: So you discussed last week Thursday about the affidavit, was there any discussion about signing the affidavit?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: No we did not talk about that.

ADV POTGIETER: Did you know that you still have to sign an affidavit or what?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: I did not know.

ADV POTGIETER: You did not know?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: I did not know.

ADV POTGIETER: Was it only when you got here to Port Elizabeth that you learned that you have got to sign an affidavit?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: Correct.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makapela, Mr Maki when you saw him there in that group, what was he doing?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: The last time I saw him he had bricks in his hand but somehow I lost sight of him because there were a lot of people. So I do not know what he ended up doing.

CHAIRPERSON: But clearly he intended to use those bricks, not so?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: And it was clear for everybody to know what the group intended to do?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you as I understand your evidence you find this application very important in your life, not so?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you went to the attorneys to assist you in making this application?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that before or after you filled in the form yourself, some time in May?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: I went to the attorneys after I had filled in the form.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now when did you first go to the attorneys in respect of this application?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: I cannot remember but it has been a while.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it in the same month you made the application initially or the month thereafter?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: I think that it was a month after I filled in the form.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I want to draw your attention to the fact that you filled in the form in 1997. So when I suggested the same month or the month thereafter I was not asking you to chose one of the two. I am just asking when you first went to the attorney in respect of this application?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: I cannot remember when I started going to the attorneys.

CHAIRPERSON: In any event you say now this application is very important in your life?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What arrangements did you make with the attorney so that he could contact you on an urgent basis?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: He could not just meet with us directly just like that. We would get to meet after he had spoken to the officers at the ANC office. They then would convey the message to us. After that we could get together.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you not have made a date with him when you were visiting him at any on stage?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And as time went on were you not getting anxious about this hearing?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you not think it necessary to go see the attorney?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: We were waiting to be called by them because they would know the date.

CHAIRPERSON: Now your hearing was first scheduled for Umtata, correct?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: Please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: This hearing was first scheduled for Umtata?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: We did not get that information.

CHAIRPERSON: When were you first told that this hearing would be in Port Elizabeth?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: About three weeks ago.

CHAIRPERSON: By who?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: By Mr David Fostler at the offices.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say since then the first time you met with the attorney was last Thursday?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

ADV POTGIETER: Can I just Mr Makapela just one. Have you been informed that Mr Hole's partner had been to Alice or that area where you live twice looking for you?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: No we were not told that.

ADV POTGIETER: Now if somebody had been in the vicinity where you live and the person had asked around. Or let me put it this way rather. I assume it is a small place where you live? Is it a village or what is it called?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: Apagumashe location.

ADV POTGIETER: It is a location. How far is it from Alice?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: It is quite a long distance.

ADV POTGIETER: From Alice?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: Yes from Alice, the town it is very far.

ADV POTGIETER: Are you well known in that area, your family?

ZUKO ZUKILE MAKAPELA: Yes my family is known.