Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-04

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, off the record what?

MR LOWIES: I'm sorry, off the subject, that's what I meant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes very well.

MR LOWIES: To jump to another aspect it's common cause that there was an order this morning that certain documents should be handed to the ANC.  My question is the following, Mr Mapoma the evidence leader introduced to us a certain Brian Kopedi from the ANC TRC Desk and we handed the documents over to him, now just before the proceedings started and my question is did you see this person when this happened, did you see the incident when the documents were handed over to him?  Now, just shortly before he started?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Which person are you talking about, I did not see anyone?

MR LOWIES: Okay.  Now on the last occasion, according to my instructions, the same Mr Kopedi to whom these documents were handed had a consultation with you at the hearing according to Mr Fredrech, can you recall?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did not see him, maybe it's possible that I did speak to him.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the point of asking this witness whether the same Brian is the person who consulted with him when he tells you that he didn't see anyone?  Shouldn't you first clarify, I mean whether he knows the Brian that you're talking about first?

MR LOWIES: I thought he would be able to do so if he saw the incident, but he didn't Chair.  I hear what you say, with respect we'll go into that.

CHAIRPERSON: Or is that Brian here, is he here?

MR LOWIES: I don't know, I don't see him now.  He's just left shortly before I think.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, very well.

MR LOWIES: Well Mr Nosenga, let me just hear this.  Did you consult with the same Brian that went to see you in jail on the previous occasion when we were here during the TRC hearings?  If I say we I mean you.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall quite well.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's put it this way, you mentioned that a certain Brian, is that his first name, is that his surname?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know whether it's a name or surname, I know him to be Mr Brian.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you consult with Mr Brian at any stage after these hearings had commenced?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not recall quite well, what I remember is he spoke to me in Stofberg.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think what counsel wants to find out is whether after - I mean since you've been attending these hearings, did Mr Brian come and see you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that is correct.

MR LOWIES: Now where did he come to see you, this Mr Brian?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He came here.

MR LOWIES: And what did he want to discuss with you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He told me that they would come to attend the hearing.

MR LOWIES: Yes?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That's all that he told me.

MR LOWIES: Who would come to attend the hearing, if you say they?  Who was he referring to?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He was in the company of a certain lady.

MR LOWIES: Who was the lady?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know her.

MR LOWIES: You've never seen her before or after?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Maybe but I do not recall, I was seeing her here for the first time.

MR LOWIES: Did they discuss the nature of your application with you like they did on a previous occasion maybe?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I have stated they just indicated to me that they would attend the hearing.  They said they would come to listen to my amnesty application proceedings.

MR LOWIES: Why would they say that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I have indicated that they don't know.

MR LOWIES: And did they indeed listen to your amnesty proceedings?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I only saw them last then.  I did not see them since.

MR LOWIES: Well that's strange, I mean they said they - that's strange because you said that they come here specifically with that purpose and then they don't do it?  Are you sure that's all that happened?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Maybe, I don't know what happened.

MR LOWIES: Now at that stage was your present legal representative Ms Tanzer already appointed and acting on your behalf when they approached you as such?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot recall.

MR LOWIES: Because I asked her if she gave anybody permission to consult with you and she said no, that's common cause between us.  Do you know whether she was consulted by them, by Brian and the other lady?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I cannot remember.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, I've urged you before ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just let me - when you first attended  these hearings, you were already represented were you not?

MR LOWIES: I think yes, I think I did not have a legal counsel but then I later on had the counsel who is next to me now.

CHAIRPERSON: When you started to attend these hearings, you were already legally represented were you not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The one person who came is my present legal counsel, she's the one who came, she's the one whom I saw.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then she was your lawyer at the time, was she not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Will you please explain?

CHAIRPERSON: When you started coming here to the hearings, you already had a legal counsel, right, the hearing had already started?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I had counsel.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and Brian, and Mr Brian you say came to see you after you had started to attend these hearings?
MR NOSENGA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes that is correct.

MR LOWIES: And on what you can remember so far, only with the message they are here, they will be listening to your application?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Now the Brian person that you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you go on.

MR LOWIES: I'm sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: You see shortly, a minute ago, you were asked, well one of your answers was when Mr Brian came to speak to you after you began to attend these hearings, you do not recall whether your present legal representative had already been appointed?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Would you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: You are telling us that your answer is at the time when Mr Brian came to speak to you here you don't know whether your present legal counsel had already been appointed to represent you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I might have said that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I'm telling you you said that.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Maybe I didn't get you well, I might have said that.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your answer, did you say that or didn't you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember whether I said that.  Would you please explain so that I can understand.  I call him Brian.

CHAIRPERSON: You see what was being asked of you was when Brian came to speak to you here you already had a representative, a legal representative.  You answered that you don't know whether your present legal representative had already been representing you at the time or not.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think we did not get each other well, I am saying my legal representative was already appointed.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you were speaking Zulu, that's what you said in Zulu, you said "I cannot remember whether my legal representative had been appointed at the time."

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I might have said that, I cannot remember but when I still remember very well, my present legal representative was here while Brian was here as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, your legal representative at present confirmed to me and I have no reason to doubt that that she was only appointed in August last year.  She showed me a document - can I have a copy of that please?  With your permission could I just ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm that your present legal representative was appointed in August last year, can you recall that or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't recall that.