Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR SWANEPOEL: While he was a conscript.  I would say from 1983 to 1986.

MR CHASKALSON: And that was during the period when you were all in a similar unit I understand?

MR SWANEPOEL: That is correct.

MR CHASKALSON: And that would have included Doctor Basson, Doctor Mijburgh, yourself and Johnny Koertzen?

MR SWANEPOEL: That is correct.

MR CHASKALSON: Thank you.  I would like you to have a look at TRC 52.  I'm not going to take you through this entire list but you see, and if you would like to draw anything to my attention please feel free to.  The third item there is Audi Carb - Lemoensap, that's next to the date 4.04.1989, there's a little c next to it which is Chris and there's a volume: 6 x 200 milligrams.  Do you know what Audi Carb is?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: For your information Audi Carb is an insecticide which is highly toxic in animals and humans.  Let's look at the next item which is done 04.04.89 under the initial C, it's 3 x, it looks like 1 x 5 - I'm not certain what that is, it's bottles and it's of Azide whiskey.  Sorry that's Azide, do you know what Azide is?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: For your information Azide is Sodium Azide a herby Herbicide which is also a preservative.  Acute poising cause a fall in blood pressure, convulsions and severe headaches.
 Let's look down the list, there is on the 9th of the sixth '89, there are no initials next to that, it is described in the affidavit but we haven't read it if my memory serves me correct, that when there is no description that was going to Doctor Basson, which is read: "Spore en brief"  Yesterday we heard evidence to the fact that that was indeed Botulism spores.  Doctor Odendal said that, well not necessarily this specific item but Doctor Odendal gave testimony that he had put spores on a letter.

MR CHASKALSON: Dr Odendal said that he, well, not necessarily specific item, but Dr Odendal gave testimony that he had put spores on a letter, on an envelope.  Let's leave that one aside.  If we go down to the 21st of the 6th 1989 we see there's a volume of 3, and it's "Bierblik Phalium", do you know what Phalium is?

MR SWANEPOEL: All I know, it's a toxin.

MR CHASKALSON: The next item which is on the 22nd of the 6th 1989 has the initial "K" next to it, it's 200 grams.  It is under the description "Suiker en Salmonella", do you know what Salmonella is?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, it's a bacteria.

MR CHASKALSON: A poison, was it also harmful to humans?

MR SWANEPOEL: I think in the right concentrate, yes.

MR CHASKALSON: The next item is 27 June 1989, there's a little "c" next to it.  It is a 1 X 75 ml volume.  It is whisky and paraquat.  Do you know what paraquat is?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: Paraquat is a herbicide that is highly toxic to humans.  Apparently death in this case is often delayed for two to three weeks and it causes widespread organ damage, especially to the kidneys and to the lungs.  I ask you to turn over the page.  On the 11th of the 8th 1989, there's a volume of 5 which is "sigarette - B - Anthrax", do you know what Anthrax is?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, I think it's a bacteria.

MR CHASKALSON: ...(inaudible) be put into cigarettes?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: The next item, there are also a volume of 5 of them, this is also 2(c) and in fact the next five or so are all from (c), is "coffee chocolate".  Do you know why Anthrax would be put into a coffee chocolate?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: The next item is "koffie sjokolade" - also
volume 5, do you know Botulinum would be put in chocolate?

MR SWANEPOEL: No.

MR CHASKALSON: The next item is "peperment sjokolade - Audecarb", we did discuss Audecarb earlier, can you speculate as to why Audecarb would be in peppermint chocolate?

MR SWANEPOEL: I can't.

MR CHASKALSON: Okay, I'm not going to go through the rest of this list which is fairly extensive.  This is a document that emanates from your company RRL.  Can you explain how these items could fit into the defensive nature of the chemical and biological programme as you have explained it to us?

MR SWANEPOEL: As I've said, I haven't seen this document before, except when you provided me with a set of documents.  I don't want to speculate, but it could possibly fit in in the explanation I have given regarding the various ways these things can be applied.

MR CHASKALSON: Is it that the purpose of RRL, as you saw it, was to identify substances and to find suitable neutralisers to those substances?

MR SWANEPOEL: Can I repeat what I have said, I said Roodeplaat had to do the evaluation and analysis of biological and chemical agents to be able to diagnose and trace them, and to establish the working of those in whichever forms it can be expected with the purpose to do neutralisation and decontamination.

MR CHASKALSON: ...(inaudible) I'm going to have to ask you to speculate a little but, but I would appreciate it if you bore with me.  Would it be your contention that this list is a list of substances, together with poison, which is simply a method to identify what could be done, or in your view, is it more likely that this is a list which you were unaware of, which you had not sanctioned according to your own view, but was in actual event a list of murder weapons?

MR SWANEPOEL: I am not prepared to speculate about that.

MR CHASKALSON: Could you explain the purpose of putting poison in whisky in terms of a defensive programme?

MR SWANEPOEL: I can possibly refer back to what I previously said, to determine how it would work in whisky, whether you could identify it in whisky, or whether you could provide that information to your client.  Perhaps it was his need to know whether all these agents or substances could be traced in whisky.   That is my interpretation.

MR CHASKALSON: Will you not concede that this list is possibly a list of abuses?

MR SWANEPOEL: The application I can't speculate about.

MR CHASKALSON: ...(inaudible) these substances were given to people who are described as CBO Ops?

MR SWANEPOEL: I can't.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chaskalson, I've been promoted to the Chair, can I ask if you finished with that line of questioning, would it be an appropriate time to take a lunch break, or do you want to pursue "die verkopelys" further?

MR CHASKALSON: I think given the answers that we have given, it's not going to be taken all that much further, if necessary I can return to it in lunch, but I've made the point and the witness has provided his answer and I do not see him changing from that.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, we will adjourn for lunch and we will convene at 14h00.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

WYNAND SWANEPOEL: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Chaskalson?

MR CHASKALSON: Thank you, Mr Chair.  Dr Swanepoel, did you ever have any contact with General Lothar Neethling during the course of your work?

MR SWANEPOEL: On a personal level, yes, not in regarding to any work or contracts.

MR CHASKALSON: Sorry, you were socially friendly, but you did not discuss the nature of your work with him?

MR SWANEPOEL: Correct.

MR CHASKALSON: Did Dr Neethling ever visit RRL?

MR SWANEPOEL: On one occasion I can remember that he came to visit.

MR CHASKALSON: ...(inaudible) on that tour?

MR SWANEPOEL: I cannot remember specifically.

MR CHASKALSON: Did the Surgeon-General ever visit RRL?

MR SWANEPOEL: That I cannot recall specifically.

MR CHASKALSON: Did ...(inaudible) ever visit RRL?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: Would you say he visited frequently?

MR SWANEPOEL: It was not often, no, probably twice a year, or three times a year.

MR CHASKALSON: Were you friendly with Dr Basson?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.

MR CHASKALSON: If Dr Basson were to visit RRL, you would in all likelihood be consulting with Dr Immelman on some or other instruction, or would it be a social visit?

MR SWANEPOEL: I personally?