Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-04

CHAIRPERSON: You're ready to commence are you?

MR LANDMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman, yes we are.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand the position it has been agreed that we should now join the one applicant, Mr Dumakude to the present application, that he, his legal advisor and I take it he has had notice of the evidence that has been led before us so far.
	There is however a problem in that the wording of his application does not deal directly with the present incident and we are hearing this evidence on the basis that the evidence will be noted and when a decision has been taken as to the acceptability of his application we will reach a decision on that, we will not do so at the present time.  We will hear this evidence subject to the provision that there may be problems arising from the wording of his application.  You accept it on that basis do you?

MR LANDMAN: We will deal with that during the course of his evidence but we accept that that's the basis on which we're here.

CHAIRPERSON: We continue.

MR LANDMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman, I prepared a bundle with a statement and a copy of his amnesty application which I would like to hand out and to make available to the other parties.  I may do that before he's sworn in.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman can we - I appear on behalf of Mr Dumakude.

CHAIRPERSON: You have put your name on record and everything, have you?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'm Eric van den Berg from the firm  Bell, Dewar and Hall, I appear on behalf of Lester Dumakude who has been joined in this application.  For purposes of the record Mr Chairman, my firm has acted in the past for one of the other applicants, a Mr Dube who has not made contact with us and so I don't know what our position is in respect of him.  I can simply advise you that were he to make contact with us there would be a considerable amount of precognition and preparation which would have to be done in respect of his application and in that case we would not be in a position to lead him sort of inside a period of 21 days as has been ruled in some of the other matters.  But I don't foresee that that will arise and I imagine that there will be a separate hearing in respect ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well it seems to me that and I'm not making a ruling on this, but my view at the moment is that we are required to hold public hearings whether there had been gross violations of human rights but I do not understand that to mean that there must be repeated public hearings.  Where there has been a public hearing where the matter has been ventilated, it seems to me that if there are others that arise later that they can be dealt with on paper or as a less public hearing and that may be the answer to Mr Dube, that he can be dealt with after we have disposed of this matter but not necessarily as a full public hearing but that is a matter we can decide later but I merely indicate my views to you so far as he's concerned.  We don't propose to ask you to suddenly act for him.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Can I call Lester Dumakude?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: (sworn states)

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairman, a statement has been prepared, that's a statement in English.  I intend to lead Mr Dumakude through the statement.  There are certain areas which we would need to clarify and I will ask questions at the appropriate times.  He has requested that when those questions are put to him that he might answer in Zulu and have that translated.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Dumakude, can I refer you to the statement which has been prepared and can you take us through it starting at paragraph 1?.
MR DUMAKUDE
"On the date of the Ellis Park bomb blast which was on the 2nd July 1988, I was the commander of the special operation units of M.K.  I succeeded Abubaker Ismail known to me as Rashid, it was during 1987.  Before this, I was the subordinate commander in Botswana having been transferred from subordinate command in Swaziland.  This was after the agreement known as Komati Accord where we rounded up, arrested, deported to Tanzania" ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Is this coming through on the - no?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Sorry Mr Chairman, must I repeat from ...[inaudible] On the date of the Ellis Park ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: We've heard the first and second paragraphs, we've all heard those.

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Thanks Chairperson.  Third paragraph
"As a commander of the special operational unit of M.K. I reported to the ...[inaudible]"

CHAIRPERSON: It's gone again.  Are the interpreters receiving him?

INTERPRETER: No Chairperson.

LESTER DUMAKUDE: From the third paragraph Mr Chairman
As the commander of the special operation unit  of M.K. I reported to the M.K. Command.  At one time it was the Chief of Staff, the late comrade Chris Hani.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can I interrupt you there Mr Dumakude?  Can you refer and I refer you to a document entitled "The further submissions and responses by the African National Congress to questions raised by the Commission for Truth and Reconciliation" and to page 51 of that document.  Mr Chairman, we've made copies and those are attached to the statement.  This deals with the ANC structures 1985 to 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: For the benefit of those who like myself always look at the top of the page, the page number is on the bottom right hand corner of the page.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  If I can refer you to page 53 on the top of the page there's a paragraph entitled "Special operations", can you read that into the record please?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Abubaker Ismail known as Rashid was the commander of the Special Operations Unit until August 1987 and I took over from Comrade Rashid.

MR VAN DEN BERG: The document makes reference to "Tommy Masinga" who was that?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: It was myself, that's my M.K. name.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can I return you to your statement and to paragraph 4 thereof?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Paragraph 4 reads as follows
"My responsibility as a commander of the Special Operations Unit, it was the planning of operation, infiltration of units, material as well as maintaining of units already infiltrated inside the country"

MR VAN DEN BERG: Please continue.
MR DUMAKUDE
"I confirm that the modus operandi of the Special Operations Unit did not differ materially from the one employed by Ismail.  There was however great emphasis on the deployment of units operating in terms of a broad mandate.  This was primarily to the heightening of security blanket in the Republic at that time"

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now Mr Dumakude, not everybody here had the benefit of hearing the evidence led at the application of Abubaker Ismail.  Can you just summarise for us the two types of units which were employed by Special Operations?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: The two types, one was the one with the broad mandate.  They were to be infiltrated based on the policy of the movement, based on their experience, they were to select targets at their own discretion and report after fulfilling the operation.
	The other type used to prepare units by sending them for specialised operation, they will select a target and will send a unit to further confirm our information at the time.  Based on the situation politically they will be given the date and time to carry out the operation in order to tally with the situation on the ground, that's the other part of the unit.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now the unit which was responsible for the explosion at Ellis Park - I'm referring you to paragraph 6 of your statement.  Was that unit a specialised unit or was it a unit with a broad mandate?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Part of the member of the unit that specialised and who was an experienced member of our Special Operations Unit and he also had the mandate to operate within the policy of the movement.  The member is Comrade Dube.