Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, about six months, not a long time.  But what I'm putting, or rather, saying you should comment on is that for that six months he was away from Lesotho and came back ...

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And I'm not saying it's correct, but if we go according to this statement, then it would mean that during December he was not fetched.  That's what it would mean, the reading.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct Chairperson, that's what the reading is, Chairperson.  I refute that, Chairperson.  In December 1987, that's when he was abducted.  Perhaps this person's mixed up with his dates.

CHAIRPERSON: No, if you have regard to page 54, paragraph 11, he now gives us some little certainty because he says
"The Lesotho police who were on duty around the 15th of March 1988, can also prove beyond reasonable doubt they were the ones who handed over Mbulelo to the then South African Police."
That's the some little certainty about dates now.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Mr Chairperson, this is quite possible, but it was definitely not to us.  I know that this man was being sought after by the Transkeian people because he had attacked and killed policemen at the police station in Umtata, so he could have been handed over to the Transkeian police for all I know, on that date.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, read again, it's the South African Police.  Did you know during that time we had these little sister countries which we created and Transkei wouldn't have South African Police?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you hear also that his companion, Fana, was killed in that shoot-out?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Is that Radebe?  Is Fana Radebe?

CHAIRPERSON: No.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Are you talking about the Transkeian ...

CHAIRPERSON: Shoot-out.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Possibly ja, I can't remember the details completely Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But you remember just that KK was involved in this shoot-out?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I know that.  I think his Commander was a Basil Kenyon or Dumisani Mafa, if I'm correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I think Mr Lax has the last question to ask, I'll allow him to.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Thanks Chair, it's just the one that arises out of your question and the one I wanted to ask.
	You must have heard about the incident where Radebe was shot in the hospital?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: He wasn't - you're thinking of Mphilo?

MR LAX: I beg your pardon, Mphilo.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Mphilo, yes.  I heard about that incident, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And you will have read that for example, Jantjie was implicated in that by, I think it was Kadi if I remember right?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Is it in the statements here?

MR LAX: It's in Kadi's statement, but ...(intervention)

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I can't recall that.

MR LAX: The implication is that he was assassinated, he was shot through the window while he was in the hospital bed.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's what apparently happened, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Now in all - you don't have to go and read it, you can take my word for it, that's what it says.  You no doubt would have heard that?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That Mphilo had been shot?

MR LAX: Yes.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Yes, we heard that.

MR LAX: Sure.  And you would no doubt have surmised that it was someone in the Security Forces that had done it, South African Security Forces.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: There's some sort of doubt to this, apparently the person that was - the bed had been changed around, they'd come back from some operation and where Mphilo should have been put he wasn't put and where this person that should have been put where Mphilo was originally, there's some discrepancy there.  So I won't say for sure it was the Security Forces.  In other words, the beds were changed around by the nurses bringing the people back from operations.

MR LAX: Are you saying Mphilo didn't die?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: No, I'm saying he did die.

CHAIRPERSON: He says when he was returned he was not at the place where he was supposed to be.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's the story that I had, yes.

MR LAX: And surely Mphilo would have been a target?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Probably he was a target.

MR LAX: I mean of the South African Security Forces.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Surely he was, he was an MK cadre.

MR LAX: Well then why does it surprise you that he was assassinated?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: It doesn't surprise me that he was assassinated, I've never said it surprised me that he was assassinated.

MR LAX: Now as I suggested to ...(intervention)

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Excuse me, there's a difference between assassination and murder.  Or is there a difference?

MR LAX: Well if you ...

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Assassination is usually with political figures and a normal person is ... but if he was just murdered without a political motivation, would that be assassination?  I'm just asking.  It doesn't surprise me that he died - let me put it that way.

MR LAX: Yes.  Well he was an MK operative.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, yes.

MR LAX: And if he'd been killed by South African Forces, it would have been an assassination.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, if he was.

MR LAX: And you're saying there's some doubt about that because the beds were switched or something?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Did you find that out by some subsequent enquiries and investigation?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I think that's what was reported to us by the Lesotho authorities or the Lesotho police, as far as I can recall.

MR LAX: That could just as - look, this is totally irrelevant, I'm not going to waste any more time on it.

CHAIRPERSON: I wouldn't have allowed you.

MR LAX: My real focus was twofold, the first was that as Commander of that section, did you come across any intelligence from whatever source, that any of these four people were ever seen in Lesotho again, after the time that they left the Ladybrand farm?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: No, Chairperson.

MR LAX: If they were the subject of an ANC disciplinary inquiry of some description, you had spies in Maseru, highly placed ones, we've heard that, you don't have to identify who they were, you had spies in Lusaka ...

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I didn't have spies in Lusaka, Chairperson.

MR LAX: When I say you I mean the South African Police had spies in Lusaka.

CHAIRPERSON: The intelligence community had spies.  I'll tell you, we have heard most of these things and in the last one where Mr Visser was present, is that with the Botswana Raid they actually had a spy who attended the conference in Kabwe.  So the intelligence community did their job.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You can rest assured we've heard this and your legal representatives were present when we even heard about this one.

MR LAX: The point I'm making though is, through your network of intelligence sources you would definitely have heard about them arriving in Zambia, for example.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, I can't comment on that, I didn't have any access to any sources or informers in Lusaka.  As I've stated before, I don't even know if they arrived in Lusaka with their right passports and their right identity documents.  I don't know what the circumstances are there, I can't argue with that Chairperson.