Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-18

MR LAX: And van Rooyen wasn't either.  You were involved in interior things, so how could that create a problem for someone working outside?

MR VISSER: Just the fact that he could have done harm to intelligence investigations.

MR LAX: I still ask how is it possible that it could be such a vital problem that you have to kill someone for it?

MR VISSER: It's one of the reasons, Mr Chair.  The fact that he could move, that he knew the handler, that he knew the movements of some of the other members, even my movements, that was also among others, one of the reasons.

MR LAX: As far as you know, who was his handler?

MR VISSER: Van Rooyen, Martin van Rooyen.

MR LAX: Please continue, I'll ask more questions later.

MS VAN DER WALT: When you say movements, you say that he knew your movements as well as some of the other members, by movements do you mean that which you were working with at that point, the type of investigation you were doing at that point because you trusted him to gather certain information for you?  For instance he was told to investigate let us say, person A, is that what you mean with movements, the types of investigations that you did he was familiar with those and that if he came out as a double-agent, that he would have transferred that information to the enemy?

MR VISSER: Among others he could have carried that information over, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And that would have hindered your work.

MR VISSER: It would have hindered out work.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said that you then spoke to Brig Goosen, what was then decided, that he had to be eliminated?

MR VISSER: Yes, Brig Goosen gave me an order that he was to be removed.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you heard now the evidence of Mr van Zyl, are you in agreement with it as far as it relates to you?

MR VISSER: Yes, I do.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you tell the Committee why you approached him?

MR VISSER: Mr van Zyl was known to me and I trusted him and he was a member who fell outside my sphere of command, outside of Soweto, I did not want to compromise one of my own people to be involved in such an operation.

MS VAN DER WALT: You have before appeared before an Amnesty Committee and throughout all these applications reference has been made to a need-to-know basis.  Was it like with you and was that also why you approached van Zyl?

MR VISSER: Yes, that's correct, Mr Chairman.

MS VAN DER WALT: And when Mr van Zyl came to help you, did you give him the order that this person had to be eliminated from society?

MR VISSER: Yes, I did, I requested him.

MS VAN DER WALT: If I listen to Mr van Zyl's evidence, is it correct that you left all the finer points of the arrangements to him?

MR VISSER: Yes, correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did you go to Josini dam?

MR VISSER: It was a place that had been identified as possibly acceptable and I believed it could work because it was near to the Mozambique border.

MR VISSER: And you left that all to Mr van Zyl?

MR VISSER: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Also the arrangements with the other applicant, Mr Gold, you knew nothing of that but you approved of it because you transferred it to Mr van Zyl.

MR VISSER: I had no liaison with any of the members, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: This person, Scorpion, when you went to fetch him at Klerkskraal Police Station, did you put him in handcuffs or did you - there is evidence that he possibly looked as if he was drugged, can you comment on that?

MR VISSER: He was in handcuffs, Mr Chair, and I had not given him anything to sedate him and as far as I'm concerned no-one else did.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said that you kept him there, detained him there under a false name and got further confirmation of the fact that he was a double-agent.  When you fetched him there again, what did you say to him, because you had detained him?  Did he know why he was detained?  Let's start there.

MR VISSER: I told him that there were problems around his movements in Soweto and that that was the reason why we first had to keep him on ice as it were and then when I fetched him I told him that it was cleared up and that we intended to use him in another place.

MS VAN DER WALT: So does it sometimes happen that an informer gathers intelligence in a certain area and is then moved?

MR VISSER: Yes, that's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: You heard from the evidence that you drove down to Pongola, did you give him coffee there?

MR VISSER: Yes, we all - van Zyl and myself, we all had coffee.

MS VAN DER WALT: Eventually you reached the farmhouse near the dam, is that correct?

MR VISSER: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did you do there, were you there with the person or where did you go?

MR VISSER: I was not near him or near the house, I was a little way from there on the dam shore waiting for the boat fetched by Mr Schoon.

MS VAN DER WALT: Where did you see Mr Schoon for the first time?

MR VISSER: At Josini, at the Security Branch when we arrived there.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did you know Mr Gold beforehand?

MR VISSER: No, I didn't know him.

MS VAN DER WALT: And Mr Carr?

MR VISSER: Carr, yes, I had had dealings with him before but I also saw him there for the first time.

MS VAN DER WALT: I just want to refer you, you say that you gave orders to Mr Gold - I want to refer to page 25, paragraph 4, you said
"We transported Scorpion to Northern Natal where I told Schoon, Carr and Gold to help me get rid of Scorpion."
Did you mean with that - because you heard the evidence that Mr van Zyl contacted Mr Gold, that these people did it because you gave the order in the whole?

MR VISSER: Yes, with my presence there I interpreted it as that I requested them to help with the elimination.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you also accept that they did all these actions under your instructions.

MR VISSER: Yes, I accept.

MS VAN DER WALT: You were then at the dam and Mr Schoon brought the boat there, is that correct?

MR VISSER: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you accompany them to the island in the dam?

MR VISSER: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: You were not present when the person was shot.

MR VISSER: No, I wasn't.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you remember any second explosion taking place there or do you remember only one explosion?

MR VISSER: I remember only one explosion.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you help at all with placing the explosives?

MR VISSER: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: After that incident, where did you go then?

MR VISSER: After the explosion we inspected the place and then we departed back to our places.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you get in touch with Brig Goosen again afterwards?

MR VISSER: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you not report to him?

MR VISSER: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: Your application says that you reported back to him after the operation was completed, when you got back to Pretoria.

MR VISSER: Oh in Pretoria?  Yes, yes, I did report to him that it then had been done, but I didn't have any further discussions with him.

MS VAN DER WALT: I want to refer you to the photographs.  You also saw these photographs of a person, do you know this person?

MR VISSER: I cannot place this photograph.

MS VAN DER WALT: This one?

MR VISSER: That neither.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you know a person by the name of Oupa Ronald Madondo?

MR VISSER: Yes, I knew such a person.

MS VAN DER WALT: How did you know him?

MR VISSER: In terms of security reports prepared in Soweto regarding his Black Power involvement.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you tell the Committee of the difference between Black Power and ordinary terrorist investigations?

MR VISSER: Black Power is a political Black Power activity, such as the BCP or Black Power Organisations which served as fronts in a certain period of time in the RSA, who were actively busy having meetings and organising certain negative aspects.

MS VAN DER WALT: Such persons were not summarily arrested because they belonged to Black Power activities.