Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-29

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: (sworn states)

ADV BOOYENS: Mr Lotz, you are applying for amnesty in this matter, is that correct?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct, yes.

ADV BOOYENS: And the application commences on page 79 of the first volume?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Do you confirm the correctness of what appears on page 1 and to you confirm your history in the Police which appears on page 80?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: In the first paragraph you give a short personal overview of where you were born, your age, etc, etc.

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You say that during your time in the Security Police, you were exposed to contacts, that you were involved in shooting incidents on the border and you were also injured and wounded at some point?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Do you confirm further that you as a Security Policeman were very focused on protecting and maintaining the previous government and that that was in line with your personal political convictions?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Were you as mentioned on page 81, were you also convinced that the ANC/SACP alliance were trying to overthrow the government?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You also mention of the escalation of the struggle?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: And that you were involved in the South African Police in their efforts to counter this movement?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you have any prior knowledge regarding the planning of the elimination of the deceased?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No.

ADV BOOYENS: On page 82, you describe how you were requested by the applicant, Nieuwoudt, to on the night of the 14th of December 1989, to remain behind at the office and how he instructed you to take a certain white Volkswagen Jetta to the Motherwell intersection, correct?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: When you arrived there, you found Snyman, Ras and Nieuwoudt there.  Messrs Ras and Snyman are also applicants here in this case?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you at that stage know what the nature of this operation was to be?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No, I wasn't aware.

ADV BOOYENS: Some time afterwards another kombi arrived on the scene and the deceased Mgoduka, Faku, Mapipa and Charles Jack got out, is that correct?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You then took this kombi which they arrived in, back to Louis Le Grange square, correct?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And a short time afterwards you heard about the explosion, correct?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You immediately went back to the scene?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes, that is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And you saw the vehicle which you had driven, had exploded.

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: I suppose you were quite unhappy when you realised that you were driving with a bomb on board?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: On page 83 you mention people that you saw there after you went back to the scene, on page 83.   Do you confirm the rest of page 83?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: You then contacted Colonel Roelofse?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Were you at any stage afterwards told by Captain Nieuwoudt that this operation was an official one?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: What did he tell you further?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: He said it was an official operation, and that it had been cleared by head office.

ADV BOOYENS: By whom?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: By Brigadier Gilbert.

ADV BOOYENS: Were you satisfied that because this was an operation which had been cleared with head office, that is was official and that it was according to head office and your colleagues, that it was essential for maintaining the government or protecting the government?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: You were charged with the Motherwell bomb incident and you were found not guilty, is that correct?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Your knowledge what you knew as a police officer of the explosion, you did not reveal that?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Why not?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Captain Nieuwoudt's instructions were that it was an official operation and I believed that it wasn't necessary to reveal what I knew.

ADV BOOYENS: In other words, you deliberately omitted to mention that?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: On page 86 you deal with the political objectives.

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And do you confirm the political objectives?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you later hear that the purpose of this whole operation had to be to eliminate these people because they were double agents or spies?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: As far as you personally were concerned, could you associate yourself with the operation and did you commit the offences for that reason, for a political reason?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Do you confirm what is mentioned in the rest of your application?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: If the Commission would bear with me for one moment.  During your trial you pleaded not guilty and you said you had no knowledge of the case and you were found not guilty?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Thank you Chairperson.

ADV BOOYENS: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: I have no questions, thank you.

MR HUGO: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, I would just like to get instructions on this aspect from Mr Snyman.  Could I request that my colleagues proceed further if they have any questions to ask.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do it in the meantime because we are going to come back to you now.

ADV JANSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman, I do have some questions.  Mr Lotz, on page 4 of your application, paginated page 82, I read.  On my arrival at the pre-arranged place I saw Captain Nieuwoudt and two other people whom I know now as Marthinus Ras and Lionel Snyman.
	Is that your evidence that you didn't know Mr Ras at that stage?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: I did know him.

ADV JANSEN: You were both members of Koevoet, is that correct?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes.

ADV JANSEN: You were actually quite friendly, you knew each other quite well?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you know Mr Snyman?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No sir, I did not know him at all.

ADV JANSEN: I know it is on record that you say you were a Warrant Officer, I just want to clarity that due to the confusion.  You were a Warrant Officer at that stage?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: Yes, that is correct.

ADV JANSEN: How long had you been a Warrant Officer at that stage, can you recall?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: It was approximately two years.

ADV JANSEN: As the Commission pleases, I have no further questions.

ADV JANSEN: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey, have you now obtained instructions?

MR LAMEY: I have obtained instructions, yes Mr Chairman, thank you.

MR LAMEY: Mr Lotz, I am going to ask you questions to clarity the matter, because it was mentioned in the affidavit of Mr Snyman but before I make this statement to you,  I must put it to you that my instructions are that Mr Snyman's memory on this aspect is not quite so clear any more, but I want to ask you whether you at any stage took part in the placing of the explosives in  the vehicle in which Mr Waal du Toit and Kok were mainly involved?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No, I wasn't involved.

MR LAMEY: Were you also not involved in a certain house or farm where Mr Snyman was?

GERHARDUS JAKOBUS LOTZ: No.

MR LAMEY: Thank you, I have no further questions.

MR LAMEY: .

MR CORNELIUS: I have no questions thank you Mr Chairman.