Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-05

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.  We are proceeding with the hearing that we were dealing with yesterday.  Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  The next applicant I call is Mr Managa.  He would also like to make use of the interpreter.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: (sworn states)

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Managa is it correct - well first tell us your present occupation and where do you reside?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Now I am a pensioner.  I am staying at Chisawuru.

MR MEYER: During the early 1980's is it correct that you were a member of the Venda National Force?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes I do remember.

MR MEYER: And which branch of the Venda National Force were you a part of?

MR MEYER: Under Security.

MR MEYER: Were you a member of the Security Branch of the Police?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: That's the one.

MR MEYER: Now you were also involved in the arrest and detention and interrogation of the people listed in paragraph 15 of your statement, the five members of the church and then the two other people, is that correct?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes, that's correct.

MR MEYER: Can you remember which of the people you were personally involved in their arrests?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Of the people with whom I am involved it's Alfred Mahamba and Phineas Morehemi Posiwa; Ndaganeni Petros Poswana; Chenuane Simon Farisani and then the Dean of the Lutheran Church, Romanos Chikororo; Sifiwe Mahumela, Mbengeni John Ravele.

MR MEYER: So you were involved in all of the seven people's arrest?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes I was involved in their arrest and assaulting them.

MR MEYER: Before we get there, the arrests were done as a result of the attack on the Sibasa police station, is that correct?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes it's correct.

MR MEYER: Which rank did you hold at that stage?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I was a warrant officer.

MR MEYER: Now the reason you are here today is that you are applying for amnesty for assault and torture of some of the detainees during their interrogation, is that correct?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes it's correct?

MR MEYER: Now I want you to deal firstly, in the same order as it's done in your statement, from paragraph 35, where you deal there first with Reverend Posiwa, and in your statement you said you gave him a few slaps with the open hand.  You possibly also punched him, made him do frog jumps and made him stand for a long time, is that correct?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: That is correct.

MR MEYER: Did you use any other methods of assault or torture on him?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes, we have used other means, just like shocking them by electricity which we used nearly every time.

MR MEYER: Yes, anything else?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: And putting a bag over his head and pour water.  I still remember even handcuffing him, hands and legs, and then we insert a broomstick and then push two tables, one from one side and another and then we hang him over there.  Then we interrogated him until we used to slap him with fists.

MR MEYER: When you would use the electric shock treatment on him, can you explain to the Panel how it was done?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Let me say in the electricity equipment I remember the last speaker, Mr Ramaligela, as well we took a sack and put it over his head and took wires and clipped them on their ears and I can't remember - but I still remember that I used it, I wind it while we were shocking him.

MR MEYER: Were you personally involved in the shock treatment?  If I can maybe just clarify it for you - it's common cause ...(intervention)

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: I was personally involved in shocking him.

MR MEYER: Did you hold him down or did you personally also apply the shock treatment?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Now I can't clearly remember, but I assaulted him is true.  I assaulted him heavily.  And I should have used the equipment personally, referring to the way we were working with him.

MR MEYER: Then the next victim that is listed in your statement is Reverend Mahamba.  You said in your statement that you never assaulted him in any way, is that correct?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes that is correct.  Mr Mahamba, we never assaulted him in any way.

MR MEYER: And the next victim that you talk about is Dean Farisani.  In your statement you said he was also assaulted by yourself, together with Mr Ramaligela in the same manner as Posiwa.  Just briefly explain to the Panel what methods of assault or torture you used with Mr Farisani.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: As far as Mr Farisani is concerned it is true.  Reverend Farisani we have assaulted him using electrical shocks, fists, falling down and then I was also hitting him by fists and we also used that broomstick in which we hang him over the table.  When we tried to hang him over it was broken because he was stout.  Then we didn't continue with that, but we continued with interrogating until - and assaulting him.

MR MEYER: Was he made to stand on his head?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes I still remember but I am not sure, but I think it was impossible for him to stand on his head but I think it happened.

MR MEYER: There is also evidence about making him do frog jumps and press-ups, do you remember anything to that effect?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Where is that evidence Mr Meyer, are you not leading him?

MR MEYER: It's contained in his evidence before the Human Rights Violations.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, we've read that, but that's not the evidence that's before us.  Shouldn't you ascertain that by asking proper - can you hold on Mr Managa, I am still talking to your counsel - shouldn't you just ask him what other means of assaults were conducted by him on Mr Farisani without having to lead him?

MR MEYER: Mr Chairman the fact is that if I don't refer to the evidence that was led before the Human Rights Violations Committee then in cross-examination it may look as if the witness intentionally omitted to make mention of such methods.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I have no objection to you bringing forth that kind of evidence.  I am merely saying you must not put leading questions to him.  Ask him if he knows of other means of torture that he conducted on Mr Farisani, if that is within his personal knowledge.  He should be able to do that without you having to lead him on what he has done.

MR MEYER: I will rephrase the question.  Can you tell us if there were any other methods of torture or assault used with regard to Mr Farisani?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: The things we have used is the thing I have already mentioned.  Farisani was - we used electricity shocks.  We shocked him all over his body, and let him stand for a long time questioning him and then we hit him with our fists.  I also hit him with my fists.  I agree that I did that.

MR MEYER: Then with regard to Reverend Poswana your statement says he was assaulted, slapped by you near Tsakuma after he had lied and told you that there were some arms hidden at a cave.  Was that all that was done to Reverend Poswana or was there anything else?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: With Reverend Poswana it is true while we were dealing with him it happened that we ended up that I pulled his head and then the hairs were removed by my hands.  We used the electrical shocks.  It is then that he told us that he will show us where the arms were hidden.  We went with him.
	On our arrival at Tsakuma while we were right in the bush next to Mangwere Mountain where he was alleging that he had hidden the weapon in the cave he sat down and said - "No, you had better do whatever you want, what I am telling you is not true".  Then we realised that what he is saying is not true and then we went back.  
	Before we could come back I slapped him, asking him why you let us come here knowing that there is nothing hidden.  Then we took him back to our office.  In the office we continued to assault him.

MR MEYER: Any other methods that were used except the ones that you've now dealt with?