Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-05-19

MR BRINK: I think as Mr Xegetwane is here, and I think he would like to say something, if he could be sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Xegetwane, are you wishing to make a statement to this Committee?

MR XEGETWANE: I am not prepared to make any statement.  I just want to thank the person who appeared here, who was actually behind all this that happened to my house. I just wanted to ask a few questions to Mr Patrick Ndlumbini, what was the reason behind. I have nothing more and I have peace because he is my brother.  That's all.  Can I pose a few questions to him?

CHAIRPERSON: Will you recall the applicant, please.

MR WILLIAMS: I will do that.

CHAIRPERSON: You are being asked to come in, because Mr Xegetwane wishes to put some questions to you.  Do you understand?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Xegetwane, you may put your questions to the applicant.

MR XEGETWANE: Mr Patrick, it is the first time that I see you today. I am happy to see you there and I have peace in my heart and everything that has been said here, just because you are my brother, I have forgiven you.  But I want to know, what was the reason that you even go to such an extent of burning my house and you even injured my children, because of the type of the rifles that you used in shooting. What was the reason?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Mr Xegetwane, Comrade Xegetwane, I am going to try to answer the question like this.  While the people were burning your house I was not present. I am going to talk about the attack, while using the R4 and the other hand-gun.  As we had already heard, that there was this taxi violence in the communities,  what used to happen was this.  We realised that there was another organisation that was an opponent of the ANC.  Therefore we realised that you were the person in the forefront of this opponent organisation.  You are among the people who were perpetrating violence in our communities.  That was the reason we came to that decision that we must remove your from our community. That was, the aim was to show you that you are not needed in our communities.  Killing was not our aim.   Because this was a common action, it was something that used to happen in other places to show the people that are not wanted in the communities.

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: What do you think and say about the expenses? I lost 26 000. My house was burnt down to ashes and one of my children is deaf.

CHAIRPERSON: The question of the loss that you have suffered is something that this witness (indistinct). So there is no point in putting that question to him.  Do you understand?  Are there any other questions you wish to put to him?

MR XEGETWANE: Thank you very much.  This is the last question.  I am happy to see you here.  The battle is over. I wish that this court can forgive you. Thank you very much. I am also happy to see you because I never knew you before. It is my very first time to see you here. It is obvious that I was looking for a person that I don't even know.  Can you please come and shake hands with me, if the battle is over, because the battle is over.  Thank you.  Can I go back to my seat now?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may do so.  You are also excused.
APPLICANT EXCUSED

MR BRINK: I don't propose calling any witnesses other than Mr Xegetwane.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams, we do not wish to hear any argument from you.  Mr Brink, is there anything you wish to say?

MR BRINK: No, no, I think the applicant has made out a case, with respect, for the grant of amnesty.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Brink, I was lucky enough last week, sitting in Bloemfontein, to have counsel appearing before us who somehow had a surplus of the recent submissions of the ANC.  I don't know if you have had an opportunity of seeing them yet, but it does appear that this applicant, what this applicant has told us, slots very much in to the submissions made by the ANC, set out in their further submissions, dated the 12th of May.

MR BRINK: Yes, I haven't had an opportunity of reading them, I haven't been supplied with a copy. I would like to get a copy, I probably will. In the light of your remarks, I appreciate the Committee is extremely busy. This matter does assume some urgency in view of the fact that the applicant has to go back to court, in July.  I merely mention that because it would seem an incredible waste of time and money for him to be - for the trial to continue and possibly to go to prison on his plea of guilty.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand the situation correctly, that as far as he is concerned, he only has to go back to court in respect of the application, the first application and not the second one, that is the damage to Mr Xegetwane's house. That is not the charge against him.

MR WILLIAMS: That is not the charge against him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: There is a charge of attempted murder, isn't there? In respect of Mr Xegetwane, page 14 of the papers.

MR WILLIAMS: Judge Wilson, that attack relates to the evidence which applicant gave here, it relates to the firearm attack on Mr Xegetwane's house.

JUDGE WILSON: So he is facing two charges not just one?

MR WILLIAMS: The charges he face relates to Mr Xegetwane's and the policeman.  Those are the only charges.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened to the trial? I thought you said he pleaded guilty?

MR WILLIAMS: He pleaded guilty to the one charge relating to the policeman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And has he been found guilty?

MR WILLIAMS: He has been convicted in respect of that and I refer to his plea of guilty which I annexed in the papers. It is in the file.

CHAIRPERSON: And in respect of the second offence, was he found guilty?

MR XEGETWANE: He has not yet been found guilty in respect of the second offence.

CHAIRPERSON: He has not yet been found guilty?

MR WILLIAMS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So the trial has not concluded?

MR WILLIAMS: The trial is not concluded.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh?

MR WILLIAMS: Can I just explain the reason for that, is that the victim in the second, or the complainant in the second matter, has never been to court, despite the fact that the prosecutor allege that he has been subpoenaed on several occasions. And the Court granted a final indictment to enable to the prosecutor to see if he can't find the complainant in that matter.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand.  Thank you very much.  Mr Brink, will this be a convenient stage to take the adjournment?

MR BRINK: Yes, yes, it would.

CHAIRPERSON: You are ready with the next matter.

MR BRINK: I would like a few minutes. I haven't met the attorney appearing in the next matter and just to see if everything is all right and bring him through, and possibly we could have a 15 minutes adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will take a short adjournment at this stage.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS