Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1998-02-11

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And I take it at the time you went to the restaurant you were not armed?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Were you the one that came back and reported to Tanda that you don't think you should attack that target?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.  However, the car was not far from the scene of the restaurant.  Even the people in the car could see the situation outside.  However, I personally went into the restaurant to see what was happening and I realised there were many people around here and I told them that the situation is bad.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now we know that the disco was not far from the restaurant, is that right?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So from the restaurant you moved to the disco?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And did you go into the disco first or did Tanda go first?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Tanda went first.  He got out of the car to go and look around in the disco, he came back.

NORMAN ARENDSE: And what did he - did he speak to you, did he tell you anything, did he give you any orders?

ANDILE SHICEKA: He gave us orders.  He said there were white people inside.  Tulele and Funani, we ended up being four.  I myself and Tanda went to look around at the disco.  Tulele and Funani were giving us firing cover.  The reason why they had to give us a firing, it was because if ever police come or we are shot from behind, they will be able to cover us while we're concentrating shooting and the disco.  The people who went to shoot at the disco it was my myself and Tanda.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now you were also armed or you also had in your possession a grenade, is that right?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct, I was armed together with a hand grenade.

NORMAN ARENDSE: You didn't use the grenade?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I didn't use it.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Is there any reason why you didn't use it?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Yes, there was a reason why I haven't used the hand grenade because the front door had burglar proofs and we realised that if we throw a hand grenade through the door it can re-bounce, it can hit the burglar proofs and explode next to our vicinity and we might be injured and we never wanted to be injured.  That's the reason why we never used it.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Can you recall how many times you fired or how many bullets you fired?  How much ammunition you used during the attack?

ANDILE SHICEKA: No, I can't remember.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Was it one magazine, two magazines?  Did you change magazines, can  you recall?

ANDILE SHICEKA: No.  I don't know whether Tanda did change his, I never changed my magazine.

NORMAN ARENDSE: How many rounds in one magazine, the rifle that you were using?

ANDILE SHICEKA: It's 35.  I don't know how many he loaded into his rifle.  I loaded mine full.

CHAIRPERSON: I would not be surprised if you were not able to remember how many shots you fired but it would surprise me if you were to say to us that you don't remember whether you changed the magazines, whether you loaded another magazine.  I would expect you to can remember that.

ANDILE SHICEKA: Mr Chairman, I understand what you're saying.  I'm saying at the time of the attack, my magazine carries 35.  Each and every person has to load his firearm.  I loaded mine to the full, it had 35 rounds.  At the time when I was shooting, I don't know how many rounds I shot.  After the shooting I then reloaded my magazine.  When we were leaving the house before the attack, going to attack we were responsible for loading our own firearms.  Mine was fully loaded.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse, I think you must clear that up.

NORMAN ARENDSE: You should be in a position, because you're the person that fired the shots, you should be in a position to tell us whether you dispensed with the whole magazine or whether you changed it.  If you fired one magazine then it gives us a pretty good idea of how many shots were fired, at least we know it's not more that 35.  And we also know from the ballistic evidence that was given in the trial court which was not challenged, that quite a number of rounds were fired from - that could be seen from the cartridges that was picked up from the scene.  Can you assist us there?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Mr Chairman, I never changed my magazine, I shot, I fired while Tanda was also firing and I never changed my magazine. I didn't see him changing a magazine.  He might answer for himself.  I only can say I never changed my magazine.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you.  Now you shot through - how wide was this grill, this door that you were firing through?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it the width of an ordinary normal door?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Yes, a normal door.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you.  So you fired through there and you fired quite a number of shots. It resulted in one person being killed and two people being injured.  Now, you only learnt that afterwards obviously, that one person was killed, two people were injured.  Did you expect more people to be killed or injured?

ANDILE SHICEKA: We expected many people to die, that's what we expected.  However we heard that only one person was killed and we were surprised.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Was the disco full?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I didn't have that opportunity to look inside into the disco because the person who went to see inside was Tanda and when I went towards the disco I didn't look around, I just started firing.

NORMAN ARENDSE: So, given that you expected more people to be killed or injured, did you not regard the operation as a success?

ANDILE SHICEKA: We didn't.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now you killed Ms Gerbrecht Selomina van Wyk and I understand that at the time she was the mother of four young children.  They were been at the time, 14, 10, 13 and 6 at the time. You were obviously not aware of that but now that you know that, how do you feel about what happened that evening and particularly that you killed Ms van Wyk?

ANDILE SHICEKA: It's very painful because killing a human being is a very painful experience anywhere in the world and I'm sorry for the family, I'm very sorry.  As you've already explained that she was a mother, she had children, it will be painful for the children to lose their beloved mother.
	I'm saying it will be painful for the children to lose their beloved mother and I also say as an individual, if I were to be given a chance I would like to meet the family of the victims - the victims family, the party's leadership.  In my presence I would like to go and ask for forgiveness from the victim's family. 
	I would like to explain to them the reason why I did the act or committed the act.  I will say to them: as a soldier I had no option, I had to carry out the instructions given to me by my seniors. I pity them, I am sorry for them and that's deep from my heart and nowhere else.  I would like to think that if it was me in that situation, how was I going to feel.  I know that all that I did was because of politics and I would like to ask forgiveness from the family.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Now you and your co-applicants, Walter Tanda and Bongani Malevu, you've requested of me to ask the Committee -Mr Chairman, to facilitate such a meeting and in fact at the conclusion of the hearing of this matter for the applicants to address Mrs Swart directly, who is a victim and the mother of the late Ms van Wyk.  Is that right?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions at this stage.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ARENDSE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior?

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Shiceka, after the attack, is it correct that you all gathered at Buthalezi's house?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: I want to just follow on from what you said, that the killing of a human being is a - I think in your words or in the summary of your words, was a very serious matter.

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.