Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-12

MR VISSER: Yes Chairperson, not 1988.
	Mr Botha, you say on page 7 of your application, you refer to the 4th November 1998, it's on page 7 of the application.  What happened then?  Or maybe I should just finish off the last incident by saying that we know from the history that she, that's Ndwandwe, was eliminated there at the farm and she was buried there, you heard that later?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: Now if we can please go on?  You refer at the end of page 7 to the 4th November, that's a few days later to the advent of the incident of Pumezo.  From memory, could you please tell the Committee what you can remember in that case?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Before this date of the 4th November, we once again by means of our informers succeeded and in this case one specific informer in making contact with Pumezo.  An appointment was made with him and he came to this appointment.

MR VISSER: This might create confusion and I think we have to be very careful with words.  Was the appointment made by the informer with Pumezo in order to speak to you or was it made it by the informer to speak to the informer.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The appointment was made and he had to meet him in person.

MR VISSER: And who would have been this person?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I cannot remember exactly what was arranged but he adhered to this appointment and at the predetermined place, myself, Du Preez and Van der Westhuizen arrested him, if I can use that terminology.  He was taken to a safe house close to Verulam, it's a place from where we operated covertly.

MR VISSER: It was a safe house?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, where that evening he was detained.  During his detention he was cuffed, handcuffed as well as leg irons and he was questioned.

MR VISSER: What was the purpose of the questioning?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The purpose of the questioning was primarily aimed at units under his command and their activities and the DLB's which he knew about and which was under his command as well as any other activities of grouping that he knew about.

MR VISSER: Including the identifying of other people?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: In his case, was there also talk of recruiting him as an informer?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It always remains an option in fact, not quite an option but it's always there.

MR VISSER: Let's get to the end of this, was there any possibility to recruit him as an informer?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson, in his case the option of recruitment was there but it was not my intention to recruit him as an informer.

MR VISSER: The evening of the 4th November, did you get any information from Pumezo?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, I did.  The fact that the previous evening they were involved in an act of terror and that was Rossburgh railway station where a limpet mine exploded and that same evening a further act of terror would have been carried out at the Montclair railway line.

MR VISSER: Mr Botha, is Pumezo assaulted that evening during the interrogation?

MR MALAN: Excuse me, we've just got to consider something, Mr Prior please?  Sorry Chair.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, it's just been brought to my intention that the families of Ntwene and the other kwaMashu three are not here, are not present.  They are scheduled to arrive because the hearings were anticipated to do Bhila and then Ndwandwe, Ntwene, they were given notice in that fashion although their representative is here I just foresee problems and if we can maybe resolve it.  I know it's going to create some logistic problem with the hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Where are they?

ADV PRIOR: The Ntwene family are from the East London area and arrangements were made to get them up here on the weekend.

CHAIRPERSON: Surely this is something that should have been discussed before, Mr Prior.  We knew that Mr Visser was going on with this applicant.

ADV PRIOR: The way the hearing was scheduled and the way the notices went out, the hearings pertaining to or the evidence pertaining to the various deceased was broken up into four events.  I must say it escaped me that we'd run into this sort of, not really a logistical problem but a problem with the same applicants giving evidence in respect of them all, it never dawned on me that we'd run into this problem.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, if I may, Visser on record, I have total appreciation of the problem of my learned friend.  We have put a lot of work behind us with this witness, Mr Chairman.  We are nearing the end of his evidence.  We would certainly have no objection to accommodate the families of the victims and as my learned friend says, if he forsees problems with us going on with the evidence without them being here, we would certainly accommodate him.  What I'm suggesting, Mr Chairman, is not that he stands down and somebody else goes on and that we interrupt his evidence, what my suggestion is if it would accommodate my learned friend is that we adjourn today and continue whenever they're here.

CHAIRPERSON: On Monday?

MR VISSER: Are they only coming on Monday?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  No, Mr Visser, that is not a proposition.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I have a few moments, so I can just speak to logistics and see if it's at all possible to get them on a plane this evening, to be here tomorrow?

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll adjourn for a few minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: (s.u.o.)

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, sorry.  I apologise, I should have indicated to my learned colleagues that we were going to reconvene, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do we need Mr Visser here?

ADV PRIOR: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior has suggested to me that he may be able to get these people here by tomorrow morning.  If we should adjourn until tomorrow and see what he can do to sort things out.  If they are not here by tomorrow then we will have to see what else we can do, apparently they have to fly from East London.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I'm happy to report that since I spoke to you last, it's been confirmed that at least one member of the Ntwene family from East London has been contacted, arrangements are now in the process of being made to get him here by tomorrow morning.  The members of the family of the other three deceased, the kwaMashu three, will be here tomorrow.  So with your leave I ask the matter to stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock and may I also place on record I am indebted to the attitude of Mr Visser for the applicants in supporting the adjournment.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I haven't seen him doing that.

MR VISSER: I'm nodding my head up and down but I'm not objecting to the postponement, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS