Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-11

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, she did not go to the toilet at that very same moment, because the children were also puzzled as to what was happening.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you testified about three people I think you said, who came into your house.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: There were three of them who came in after breaking the door.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Did they break the gate?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, it was broken.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when they broke the gate, your wife was not in the toilet?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, she had not been to the toilet as yet.

CHAIRPERSON: When the gate was broken, you again warned her to go and hide in the toilet?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: What is it, the three people, let me rephrase ...

MR LAX: Before you, you were going to give us a reference to that bit of evidence you put to him.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you put to him?

MR STRYDOM: I want to put his wife's evidence at the criminal trial, at page 2556.  The first thing that I want to put to you is that your wife said nothing about you telling her about the "koyoco" outside.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I think it was up to her at the time of making the statement, I was not there.

MR STRYDOM: Your evidence in this forum was "I informed my wife that it appeared as if Inkatha is going to attack us", that is after you saw the "koyoco" outside?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I did say that because I received a phone call to that effect.

MR STRYDOM: Your wife testified further after she was asked to explain what had happened that night, she said "well, initially I heard people crying outside in the street."

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: She said what things she thought appropriate.

MR STRYDOM: And then she went ahead to say "I was still sitting with the children in the house ...

INTERPRETER: I am sorry for the interruption Chairperson, may the witness please repeat the answer.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Strydom is doing now, he is reading to you what your wife is supposed to have said when she gave evidence at the criminal trial, do you understand that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So what he is doing, he is merely reading to you what your wife said.  Do you understand that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: She stated that she was still sitting with the children in the house and the next thing, she saw stones being thrown, well she didn't see the throw, but just saw stones coming into the house, through the window and then she took the kids and went to the toilet.  To summarise she says she was sitting, the next moment she heard a noise, the next moment stones were flying into the house and then she went to the toilet?  Is that how it happened?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: What I know is this, that at roundabout ten o'clock, many children are already asleep and those who would still be awake, are the older ones.  I told them that we are now being attacked and I said to Dududu that she should accompany the mother to the toilet to hide themselves.  I was sitting there with a young boy with whom I used to sit there.  The rest of them were preparing for sleeping.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, that I understand but all I am asking you is this, what I have put to you and what your wife testified, is that correct that she was sitting there, she heard a noise and the next moment stones flew into the house and then she went to the toilet to hide?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, it is true that stones did come into the house through the windows, but I don't know about the rest of the things that she said.

MR STRYDOM: So when the stones came into the house, was she still sitting or not?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: She was standing next to the kitchen.

MR STRYDOM: Did you tell her that the Priest phoned earlier that day?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I did.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you that she mentions nothing of the kind in this testimony of hers.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I know very well that she could not have spoken everything that I told her.  She only testified about things that she witnessed herself.

MR STRYDOM: You testified here that she came out of the house after the attack and she could also see Police vehicles.  I want to put to you that nothing of the kind is stated in her testimony, or appears in her testimony?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It was difficult at the time to speak about these things.  My wife was frightened, she could not have spoken about these things.

MR STRYDOM: So do you say that according to you, her testimony does not tell the full truth?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I cannot tell her truth.  I only know what I am saying.

MR STRYDOM: Because I want to put to you that what you are saying, is not the truth, and she told the truth.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am telling you now, I can take you now to show you evidence of what I am talking about.

MR STRYDOM: I am not saying your house was not attacked, what I am putting to you is that you did not see the "koyoco" outside at the stage when you testified, and you did not see the attackers walk alongside with these Police vehicles.  That is the part of your evidence that you made up.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I saw them, I am not fabricating this.  I can take you along right now to show you where I was seeing them from.

MR STRYDOM: Your wife was asked about casspirs but she was asked the following question
" ... Did you hear the sound of vehicles, heavy vehicles for instance a casspir which passed by the house?"
	That was the question and her answer -
"... No, the only sound that I heard was shots that were fired."

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is her testimony, because the casspirs were not making a noise as they were moving, because they were moving slowly and there was the breaking of windows going on at the same time.

MR STRYDOM: That I understand but according to you, she saw these vehicles not far from the house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, she said she saw these vehicles?  I am the one who saw these vehicles and pointed them out to them.  I pointed it out to everyone who came early the following morning.

MR STRYDOM: Now to return to that statement I asked you earlier on about,  and just to refresh your memory that is the statement where the Interpreter was Mr Matengane.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I have answered that one.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you that also in this statement, you say nothing about that "koyoco" vehicle that came to a standstill there in front of your house.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I don't know, if he did not include that, that is his mistake.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I would have thought that we would have been entitled to a copy of that statement.

MR STRYDOM: I am going to hand it out right now.  Chairperson, this is a typed copy which was obtained from the Police docket, can it be handed out as Exhibit CC?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Baloyi, what is being put to you is that in the statement which was taken from you with Mr Matengane interpreting, you made no mention of a "koyoco" which stood in front of your house, do you understand that?  Do you understand the question?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why it is not there?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: We spoke many things and they wrote many things.

CHAIRPERSON: But as far as you can recall, you told them about the "koyoco"?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is the original?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, we are not in possession of the original, this is the only document we could find in the Police docket, we could not find the original.  Apparently the full contents of the docket is with Mr Kjellberg, but our investigation could only get this document which is obviously - well, it purports to be a typed document of the original.

CHAIRPERSON: Shall I just enter this statement first.