Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Bokaba, you tell us that you had a meeting with, you had a discussion with Ngo at Mamelodi where he would have told you that he was an informer and he was interested in the security branch.

CAPT BOKABA: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: I put it to you that such a meeting never took place.

CAPT BOKABA: It did take place.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Bokaba, you told us that you did not ask Ngo about his application because these applications take a long time to get done.

CAPT BOKABA: That is what I said.

ADV MEMANI: But Mr Ngo was at Mamelodi for about two years.

CAPT BOKABA: I do not know how long he stayed in Mamelodi, at Mamelodi.

ADV MEMANI: That was a very long time indeed.

CAPT BOKABA: It could be so that he stayed a long time at Mamelodi.

ADV MEMANI: And that time then was long enough to have prompted you to ask him what happened to your application.

CAPT BOKABA: I didn't ask him.

ADV MEMANI: And what surprises me is that your application was approved within three months.

CAPT BOKABA: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: What surprises me in fact about that, is that he was there for two years and yours having been approved in two months.  Do you want us to believe that these things took a very long time to get done.

CAPT BOKABA: You know, that is what surprises me also.  It might have happened that Ngo did not submit his application form, that he did not submit his application form to his commander at Unit 19.  That can be the possibility.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think the question, at least this aspect we are dealing with here, is this; for a long time you are not hearing any progress with regards to Ngo's application, but there were other people who were getting all you needed, people to help you and you kept on seeing Mr Ngo, why didn't you say to him, well, man, it is even surely three months, it is too long now, I mean, it is long after the three months, it is six months, what is happening to your application?

CAPT BOKABA: Maybe it could be of my ignorance, because I didn't ask him.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Wasn't it because, in any event, he was working with you, as he says.  So there was no need to keep on asking what happened to your application, because he was working with you anyway.  Isn't that the reason?

CAPT BOKABA: That is not the reason. He never worked with me.

ADV MEMANI: Now towards the end of your evidence in chief you told us that Ngo was never a member of the security branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you say in Northern Transvaal?

ADV MEMANI: I am indebted to his Lordship.

CAPT BOKABA: Ngo has never been a member of the security branch Northern Transvaal.

ADV MEMANI: And you also said that he did not know Capt Hechter.

CAPT BOKABA: He stated that he didn't know Capt Hechter in his evidence.

ADV MEMANI: No, I am saying that you told us that Ngo doesn't know Capt Hechter. That was your evidence at the end.

CAPT BOKABA: What do you mean?  He stated that he didn't know Capt Hechter.

ADV MEMANI: I am putting to you what you told us, you said that Ngo doesn't know Capt Hechter.

CAPT BOKABA: That is what I stated.

ADV DE JAGER: But he is replying now and he tells you yes, I said so, because I listened to Ngo's evidence and Ngo told this Committee that he didn't know Hechter.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I recall a question I put to Capt Bokaba, was if he knows of any contact or any contact that Ngo  ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I think it was even more specific. I think you asked him if he ever saw him speaking to Capt Hechter or Capt Loots.

MR DU PLESSIS: Ja, that was the question.  Ja, that was the question, apart from the one interview did he see him ever speaking. I am indebted to your Lordship, thank you.

ADV MEMANI: Now you were saying that Ngo would not have spoken to Hechter because he doesn't know Hechter.

CHAIRPERSON: He hasn't said that. He said he went and had an interview - sorry, Hechter, yes.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, the question is still phrased wrongly, because his evidence was that he had never seen Ngo speaking to Hechter.  The evidence didn't go as far as saying that he testified that he knows that Hechter never knew Ngo and Ngo never knew Hechter. It was only about did he ever see them speaking to each other.

ADV MEMANI: His answer was Ngo doesn't know Capt Hechter.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Bokaba, could you respond to that, please and tell us what the position is?

CAPT BOKABA: I stated that Ngo does not know Capt Hechter.

ADV MEMANI: And  ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Why do you say so?

CAPT BOKABA: They have never met and during his evidence he stated that people that we worked with, he stated that he does not know Hechter.  That is why I say he does not know Hechter.

ADV MEMANI: That is what prompted me to note what you are saying, that you know that Ngo doesn't know Hechter, he has never met Hechter and that is exactly what Ngo says.

CHAIRPERSON: So what's that? You have now repeated the evidence. Is there a question?

ADV MEMANI: And Ngo doesn't know, you know that Ngo doesn't know Hechter, because he worked closely with Ngo. You worked together with Ngo and Selahla.

CAPT BOKABA: I don't know how to explain that to you, counsel Memani.  Because Ngo stated during his evidence that he does not know Hechter. He stated it that he does not know Hechter. Now how do I put it to you so that you understand this matter?

ADV MEMANI: You see, your answer was two-pronged. The first part of the answer says Ngo has never met Hechter. The second one says Ngo has also testified that he doesn't know Hechter. You say therefore that he corroborates your knowledge that Ngo does not know Hechter.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, let's try to simplify this for the witness.  Actually what Mr Memani says, he is saying both you and Mr Ngo are right in saying that Ngo does not know Capt Hechter.  But he is saying, the reason why you are able to know that Ngo doesn't know Hechter, is because you had worked closely together with Mr Ngo. That is why you are able to even tell us that Ngo did not know Hechter.

CAPT BOKABA: I never worked with Ngo at any other time.

ADV MEMANI: And if you had never worked with Ngo at any other time, you would not have known whether Ngo knew Hechter or not.

CAPT BOKABA: I do not know how to explain this. I never worked with Ngo, I do not know.

ADV MEMANI: You do not have an explanation?

CAPT BOKABA: I do not have an explanation.

ADV DE JAGER: How often did you see Hechter?

CAPT BOKABA: At all times, at the office, we met at the office during the conference and in the afternoon.

ADV DE JAGER: But did Hechter  ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: That is twice a day?

CAPT BOKABA: Ja.

CHAIRPERSON: Twice a day.

CAPT BOKABA: Yes, that is twice a day.  It might be more.

ADV DE JAGER: And if Mr Ngo attended these conferences twice a day at COMPOL Building, you would have seen Mr Hechter there or Capt Hechter there?

CAPT BOKABA: That is correct.  And he would have known other policemen who worked at the security branch and the other sections, not only Section B.

ADV DE JAGER: Who attended those conferences?  In the morning at seven o'clock and in the afternoon?  Could you give us a few names?

CAPT BOKABA: Are you saying their names?

ADV DE JAGER: Ja.

CAPT BOKABA: All right.  The personnel under the command of Col Loots - let me start with Atteridgeville.  Lieut Henning Brand, Warrant-Officer Zondi Makamu, Sgt Robbie Makinta, who were later joined by Leslie Mogosi, Freeman Mampura, David Magahu.

ADV DE JAGER: That's for the Atteridgeville. I believe there could be more.  At other regions attending?

CAPT BOKABA: It was only the personnel of Capt Loots.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, okay, but that was from Atteridgeville now.

CAPT BOKABA: Ja.

ADV DE JAGER: Anybody from Soshanguve?

CAPT BOKABA: Yes, I was just about to give you their names.