Amnesty Hearings — Mabopane — 1998-08-06

CHAIRPERSON: Could I just ask a question Mr van den Berg?
	Mr Masina, with your unit, when you were in South Africa and you identified a target as you've told us,  was it in your discretion, you're unit's discretion, to then take action against that identified target or did you have to report back before you took action, to your superiors out of the country?

JABU OBET MASINA: We were operating in such a manner that as soon as we have identified a target we would report back to our seniors back there and tell them we have identified such a person and would it be viable if we removed such a person and then Chris Hani and the rest would give us the permission to do it or not, the assassination.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr van den Berg.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Once the Brigadier had been identified as a target, what happened thereafter?

JABU OBET MASINA: Ting Ting reported to me and said that they've done the reconnaissance and all the necessary things.  As their commander I gave them the green light to go on with the assassination ...[intervention]

MR VAN DEN BERG: May I interrupt you there, you made reference to Ting Ting, that is a reference to Mr Masango, one of your co-applicants.

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So if I understand you correctly, Mr Masango was responsible for the reconnaissance for the operation?

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did you participate in the reconnaissance at all?

JABU OBET MASINA: No, Sir, I never did.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You say that: "they", understand that that includes Mr Masango, sought what you've described as: "the green light", who else was involved in that discussion?

JABU OBET MASINA: It was Joseph Makhura, he was there as well.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did you give any specific instruction in the manner in which the operations were to be carried out?

JABU OBET MASINA: Yes, Sir, I did.

MR VAN DEN BERG: What were those?

JABU OBET MASINA: I said to them, if they believed that they have done a thorough reconnaissance they may eliminate him.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did you give instructions as to who was to fulfil which role in the operation, for example, who was to drive and who was to do the shooting or was that left up to them?

JABU OBET MASINA: As a commander I gave the instructions that Joseph Makhura and the other one who has disappeared in the country, Justice, because they should shoot Molope with AK rifles and the other one must drive the car.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You refer to the other one, do you mean Mr Masango?

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct, Mr Masango was driving.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Were you present when the operation was carried out, when Brigadier Molope was assassinated?

JABU OBET MASINA: No, I was not present.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did Mr Masango and Mr Makhura report to you that they had carried out the operation?

JABU OBET MASINA: Yes, they did, they reported back to me that they have done the job.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And this was in turn reported to your structures in Botswana?

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Masina, you deposed to an affidavit, and I think you have a copy in front of you.
	Mr Chairman, it's at page 19 in the bundle that we have.

JABU OBET MASINA: Which page is that you are referring to Sir?

JABU OBET MASINA: If you look at the second page of your affidavit - that's page 20 for Members of the Committee -would you just	have a look at what is stated at paragraphs 4.1 through to 4.7.  You may need some time to read it.  I don't want you to read it into the record, I just want you to read through it, so just take your time to read through it as I have some questions I want to ask.  	Have you read through it?

JABU OBET MASINA: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you confirm what is stated here?

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So when you referred to the Brigadier as a bad person, you were referring to him as a bad person in the political sense?

JABU OBET MASINA: Brigadier Molope was a puppet of the then regime, he was being used against the people.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you have anything that you want to add to what you have already testified to?

JABU OBET MASINA: No, Sir, I've got nothing further to say.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Will you answer any question which either the family members of the victim have or the Committee, to clarify any aspect of your testimony?

JABU OBET MASINA: Yes, I'm willing to do that Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr van den Berg, if you look at page 14, 9(a)
"I participated in two operations"
The first relates to the planting of an anti-tank landmine in Mamelodi West.  Are we going to deal with that or not?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairman, I'm advised that this hearing is purely in respect of the death of Brigadier Molope, and that the other incidents for which he has applied for amnesty will be dealt with at a separate time.

CHAIRPERSON: So we're not expected at all to make a decision on that anti-mine incident at Mamelodi West?

MR VAN DEN BERG: That is how I understand the position Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that so Mr Mpshe, I don't want any confusion here?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is so Mr Chairman.  Perhaps to explain the reason why the papers are in this fashion, this was extracted from the bulk application of the applicants wherein they mention all the incidents but we are only interested in the Molope incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairman, there is one aspect that I neglected to ask a question on.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly Mr van den Berg.

MR VAN DEN BERG: If I can just ask him that.
	The form which you submitted for purposes of applying for amnesty, was that signed?

JABU OBET MASINA: Yes, it is signed Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van den Berg.
	Mr Mpshe, what is the situation, are you going to be asking questions on behalf of the mother or are the other members of the family going to be taking over your mantle in that regard or also be asking questions in addition to you asking questions, and if so, who is going to ask the questions first?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I'm going to ask questions on behalf of the family and only one member of the family will add.

CHAIRPERSON: After you've asked questions the she requires an opportunity?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Masina, I note in your application that you refer to this unit as the Icing(?) Unit.

JABU OBET MASINA: Yes, Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now when was this unit formed?

JABU OBET MASINA: It was formed immediately Chris Hani called me in Angola saying that I should organise a unit that was going to do this specific task.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'm sure you are aware that we were not present when you were talking to Chris Hani.  We want the date, if only the year please.

JABU OBET MASINA: It was in 1985.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was it specifically formed for this operation or for all other operations?

JABU OBET MASINA: All operations Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you given - by: "you" I'm referring to the Icing Unit, were you given a specific mandate as to how to go about before you carry out an operation, as cadres would be expected to or were you just given a blank cheque to go to as you choose?

JABU OBET MASINA: We were given a mandate and a clear instruction as to how we should work.  Chris Hani told us not to just enter the country and kill anyone randomly.  As we identify somebody as an enemy of the people, especially in political affairs then we should eliminate such a person, but otherwise if they, as soon as we identify such a person we should go back to them in exile and report the whole information about this person and then they would give us the go-ahead.