Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-01

MR ROSSOUW: Did you get any indication where that information came from?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: It comes from the statement by Sehlwana.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman I've got nothing further at this stage.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black!

MR BLACK: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr van der Merwe throughout your evidence relating to the six people who were to be transported into South Africa from Botswana, you refer to them as being armed people, at one stage, and at the next stage you refer to them as "well trained armed men". Did you have any information prior to this incident that these six ...(intervention)  (Tape appears to change here....)

ADV VISSER: Now you were at the game fence. The defence force man, where would he have been, the man who was supposed to throw the gas grenade?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: He would have been away from the place where the combi was to be. Some distance away towards the game fence, under the shelter of some trees.

ADV VISSER: Mr Chairperson I wonder if we could make a copy of Exhibit C which you have in front of you. We don't have a photostat copy of it but maybe we could be allowed to make or draw a rough map, it might be of assistance for record purposes for the witness to refer to the points of the compass as Mr Sehlwana referred to them because we are not going to enter into a dispute as to where north, west, south and east were because the facts are correct according to Exhibit C. My attorney says that we could perhaps make a photostat copy but I don't want us to actually adjourn, I really want us to continue.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well I meant to cause copies to be made during tea break but I forgot completely about it.

ADV VISSER: Perhaps I could be allowed just, not an official document, but just to let the witness have something in front of him showing the points of the compass.  It may facilitate reference for the sake of the record. That's all I thought.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't prefer to use the same ...(intervention)

ADV VISSER: I would Mr Chairperson but then you wouldn't be able to follow now, you see.

ADV DE JAGER: But surely Mr Visser it's east, west, north and south and the river or the spruitjie running from north to south and a road running from east to west, it's not so complicated. We could follow that.

ADV VISSER: Well Mr Chairman this person wasn't there, he doesn't know the area. I can try Mr Chairman but as long as it's not held against the witness if he then confuses the points of issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Well another thing is that I don't know whether he would find Exhibit C useful because the cardinal points there have not been put up in the conventional way. They were put up in accordance with the witness', Mr Sehlwana's version but definitely not in the conventional way, like you put North up on a piece of paper.  In his case East is up on the piece of paper and that may confuse him, but if you want to try and if you think it could be useful to the witness or do you prefer to use the other document the one you once produced?

ADV VISSER: Let's see how far we get on the suggestion of Mr de Jager and see how far the witness gets.
	As I understand it Mr van der Merwe, the witness drove from east to west with the combi.  I beg your pardon Chairperson, from west to east, not from east to west. I don't have the exhibit in front of me, so I don't know.

ADV DE JAGER: You don't need the exhibit, the evidence was that he came from the west, from Botswana to Pietersburg, so it's from west to east.

ADV VISSER: If you accept that the combi drove from west to east then one could on that basis assume the south would be on the right-hand side and left on the left-hand side as the combi was driving along.  Now on that assumption could you proceed?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Yes.  Our planning, as I've already was that he would jump out on the right-hand side of the combi and on the strength of what you've said where east and west are, then moved along the right side of the combi towards the game fence and take shelter there.

ADV VISSER: Yes, thata's the south side.

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Yes that would then be in the south. That is where the defence force man would have been with the grenade, yes.

ADV VISSER: And according to your planning, what would Sehlwana have done?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: As far as I can remember, he was supposed to have moved in the same direction, away from the scene to seek shelter.

ADV VISSER: Who were the people when the final planning was done by yourself, who was present during the final planning session?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Are you talking about the planning as to what should happen at the scene?

ADV VISSER: Yes.

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: I know that Sehlwana was present and Captain Erwee was there and Mr Coetsee was there.  You know when you're far way from a particular scene you can't do detailed planning, you can only lay down a very wide framework, so the idea is that we agreed on the possibility of executing the operation in this way and that the specifics would depend on the terrain there and that the people involved with the defence force would go there and do the final planning on the ground.

ADV VISSER: Yes the detail would be sorted out on the terrain itself.   Now was a representative of the defence force present at this meeting?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: I can't remember whether he was present at that stage, I seem to recall that I only saw him at a later stage when we actually said goodbye to them and when I said a couple of words before they went to the scene for the final planning.

ADV VISSER: Can you remember which commander of the defence force was involved?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: I was brought under the impression that it was Five Reconnaissance Unit from Phalaborwa.

ADV VISSER: Was it important for you also to bring in other people other than the Pietersburg Branch members to assist in this operation?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson no.  As I saw the whole set-up and depending on the people that we had at our disposal and the scene that we had at our disposal, I didn't deem it necessary, I think there would have been an overlap and people would have been falling over each other rather than effect an arrest.

ADV VISSER: Yes perhaps I expressed myself badly.  Was it only Pietersburg members taking part in this operation?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: No from other branches, Louis Trichardt, Messina, Pietersburg itself.  I can't remember the specific branches but if I see the people I will remember where they came from.  But we got the people that we needed and also people with experience.

ADV VISSER: Now the final meeting at which you gave the final instructions, is that the meeting that you've just referred to?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Yes.

ADV VISSER: What was your order to Erwee as to what was to be done with the people entering in the combi?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: We were all together and I told Captain Erwee in particular that as we had already had a series of planning sessions, we wanted to arrest these people.  With Captain Bourne present I also made it very clear that we should have no illusions as to what was going on.  Whilst we were dependent on arrested infiltrators for information which was very, very valuable to us, we should have no illusions as to what would happen if things went wrong. We didn't foresee that but if things went wrong our members lives should not be endangered.

ADV VISSER: What would that mean?

WILLEM JOHANNES VAN DER MERWE: Well if something went wrong, if for instance they returned fire or opened fire, in other words they resisted arrest, the people entering the country, then our people had to shoot. Absolutely, from the Security Force side.