Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-12

MR MAY: Those which I was in possession with, were those who came from Fourie's farm.

ADV DE JAGER: And did the other accused, did they have anything coming from Fourie's farm?

MR MAY: I remember only Mr Magoda who was having a camera.

ADV DE JAGER: And Mr Leeuw did he have anything coming from the farm?

MR MAY: I was handcuffed under the chairs when Mr Leeuw was arrested, so I was not aware.

ADV DE JAGER: Before you've been arrested ...

MR MAY: Pardon me?

ADV DE JAGER: Before you've been arrested, what happened, did Mr Leeuw take some of the goods to himself, for himself, to his place or did they leave everything in the car?

MR MAY: It was all in the car.  What Mr Leeuw took, he took them maybe when I was not aware that he had other articles with him, but all the articles were in the car because there were three backs in that car.

ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't divide the goods between yourselves?

MR MAY: No sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Who took the, who had the pistol?

MR MAY: That is Mr Leeuw.

ADV MTHEMBU: Did he keep it with him?

MR MAY: That is true.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

ADV MTHEMBU: Mr May is that your testimony?

MR MAY: What I can add somewhere if need be, but that is my testimony.  I am asking the Truth Commission that the evidence which I've given before the Truth Commission, it is the true testimony, that is why I came here for to tell the truth.  If I forgot other facts which happened, the Truth Commission have some ways to remind me.

JUDGE WILSON: Can I just ask you to clear up one point from this, he arrested you at your girlfriend's house you say where the car was?  Is that correct?

MR MAY: That is true sir.

JUDGE WILSON: And you then took him to house 337, did you?

MR MAY: Yes, that is true, I beg your pardon, that is true.

JUDGE WILSON: And he searched there?  Accused 2 and 3, he searched there for them? Did that happen?

MR MAY: He didn't search for them, he found them in the house - at house 337.

JUDGE WILSON: Found Nkgwedi and Leeuw?

MR MAY: That is true, sir.

JUDGE WILSON: And then you go to house 1864?

MR MAY: That is true sir.

JUDGE WILSON: And did you find Magoda there?

MR MAY: That is where we got Magoda sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Now all four of you?

MR MAY: That is true sir.

JUDGE WILSON: And then did you go to house 496 E?  Where you found Elizabeth Ntlana?

MR MAY: No, that is not true sir.

JUDGE WILSON: You didn't go to house 496 E?

MR MAY: No, sir.

JUDGE WILSON: And did you go to 1766 C?

MR MAY: No, sir.

JUDGE WILSON: And then to 1684 K?

MR MAY: Yes, we did go there sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

MS THABET: Mr May, what was the purpose of taking these articles with you by car to your girlfriend's house?

MR MAY: Because as I got instructions that we should wait for 24 hours with that car and those articles, because they should be taken within 24 hours, that is why I put them in the car because I thought that time was very short.

MS THABET: Who told you that the goods were supposed to be collected within 24 hours?  And by whom were these goods supposed to be collected?

MR MAY: I was told by Commander who is Hendrik Leeuw and that it should be taken by a Commander who has given the whole instructions for the operation.  They announced me that he will arrive in 24 hours.  I was told by Mr Leeuw when we departed.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, did you go and see him after 24 hours and say when are they going to take this car away and all these goods, I don't want the police to find it with me?

MR MAY: No, I was just there, I was not able to go anywhere else.

MS THABET: So, Mr Leeuw just told us now that he didn't know when the Commander was going to come and collect the goods.  You are saying that he said within 24 hours, is that correct?

MR MAY: The truth is that after the operation within 24 hours the Commander would meet Mr Leeuw to get disposed of the articles and the car because it was important articles for the Organisation.

JUDGE WILSON: Did Mr Leeuw tell you this?

MR MAY: Yes, he is the one that told me so sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr May, can you just tell me why did you take these items from the deceased's place, the items that are in paragraphs 23 and 24?

MR MAY: The reasons to take those kinds of articles from the deceased's place was the reason I got from my Commander who is Mr Shoba, explaining  that whatever thing it is important to be taken, we should take it.  To make it possible that LPA should have progress to have arms and so forth.  We knew that the ammunitions were scarce in the 1990's.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you really understand the instructions or orders from APLA to say that you must take a bottle of lemon juice, cake mix, paper roll, brown belt, a pair of black mens' shoes, two pens, did you really understand that to be instructions from APLA to take that sort of thing?

MR MAY: It was an instruction which explained what kind of articles we should take, but in the actual operation we took even things which were not necessary or were not meant for.

CHAIRPERSON: Why then did you take these things which were not necessary and which were not meant for and which were not covered by the orders - if you were acting, or if you are perporting to be acting in terms of an order?

MR MAY: As we have taken those articles we knew that we will be able to make money out of those articles and those are the articles which we found in that place.

CHAIRPERSON: You must tell me how you wanted to make money out of lemon juice.

MR MAY: Those kinds of articles you are mentioning, are those we found them in the car, we didn't take them from the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you keep them with you and why did you intend to give them to your Commander if they did not fall within the parameters of the orders or instructions?

MR MAY: The reason was that whatever we have taken we should see that before we can divide among ourselves.  He was the one who decided which one to take and which one to leave and what to do with them.

JUDGE WILSON: So you would divide the rest between yourselves, would you, after he had seen what he wanted, is that what you just said?

MR MAY: No, I wouldn't answer that, maybe it could not  have been possible.

JUDGE WILSON: You just said we divide between ourselves?  It cam out of your mouth.

MR MAY: I don't remember saying that sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, I just want you to comment on something which is contained in the statement which was apparently on the face of it, made by Mrs May.  Perhaps she didn't sign it directly but apparently she signed the annexure thereof.  On paragraph 11 thereof, she says - on page 11 thereof she says one of the attackers approached me and hit me through the face, he was a shortish, stocky man and asked me where was the money.  He also told if I did not tell them where the money was, they are going to shoot me.  He also said that they would take all our valuables, belongings such as the wall clock.  Now, you see she is saying that one of you demanded money, is that what  happened?

MR MAY: I do not concur with what you have just read because I was not in close contact with Miss May.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you a relative of hers?  I see you are also a May?

MR MAY: No sir.

CHAIRPERSON: If no demand for money was made, I wonder why she would say this?

MR MAY: I have no other reason why she would say that because I could not come in close contact with her at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: If you did not say it, were you present when any of your co-accused demanded money?

MR MAY: No sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Could that have happened where you couldn't hear it?

MR MAY: I think so and I believe so.

ADV DE JAGER: In the house - did you enter the house too with the other applicants?

MR MAY: We entered the house one at a time.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you present when she was taken to the bedroom and ordered to open the safe?

MR MAY: I was not present.

ADV DE JAGER: Who opened the safe?