Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-26

MR LAX: And it doesn't - listen to the question before you answer, and it doesn't make any difference whether you were personally involved in projects or not, it's a general statement.  Do you see my point?

WOUTER J BASSON: I can see your point, yes, but once again I cannot specifically recall at what stage all projects had to be terminated or reviewed, it could be that this project was still supposed to continue at a stage when it did, or was terminated.

MR LAX: So are you saying there might have been two instructions given at different stages?

WOUTER J BASSON: What I'm trying to say, Mr Chairperson, is that it is here about the lapse of time, that the termination of operations was given or the suspension of operations was given after what Mr van Zyl said continued ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, but what Mr van Zyl says here on page 961 is that he had to go and give the money back etcetera, but he was given special authority for the project from the Regional Manager, because it was an authorised project.  He talks about the "staking" of projects, but this one seemed to be an exception.

MR LAX: It goes further than that, at the bottom on 962 which is the portion that Mr Kahanovitz read to you last
"That is what I'm telling you, my understanding was that all projects that had been approved up to the 1st of September, had to be finalised and that no new project after the 1st of September would be presented until FW de Klerk was informed of the existence of the CCB."
So there's no space here for confusion, it's a general instruction that he understands, isn't that so, and you spoke about a general instruction of a different nature, your instruction was general rationalisation of all projects, his instruction is, 'no problem, continue with all the ones that were already authorised, it's the ones that are being planned but not yet authorised that cannot go ahead.'

WOUTER J BASSON: Mr Chairperson, it is possible that it is so, but I say again at that stage I was not so actively involved in Region 6 activities.  If you look at Mr van Zyl's evidence where the district Chairperson told him to continue, I do not even know if I knew about it at that stage.  But what I do know for a fact is that, and maybe because I now seem not to make sense is because I was involved in Region 2 and there was definitely a limit placed on the continuation of operations.  I cannot say that this person is lying, it is possible that certain operations did continue and that I was just not aware of it.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something with you.  These diary entries that you referred us to that talk about "rasionalisasie", are you sure in your own mind that those are in fact a reference to this process that you've described?  Are you sure that they don't refer to something else maybe?

WOUTER J BASSON: Mr Chairperson no, I would like to say yes, I'm quite sure that it was as a result of the political process that changed.

MR LAX: Sorry I didn't hear you correctly, are you saying you're sure now?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, I'm saying that - well it is quite a few years ago, but I would like to think that the presentation of the rationalisation at that stage specifically dealt with Mr de Klerk taking over.

MR LAX: Now you would have had to prepare for that "in-huis", isn't that so?

WOUTER J BASSON: That is correct, yes, all the district or region Commanders had to deal with their members' projects, they had to look at it, see if they can rationalise it, see that there was an in-house presentation, that would have been Mr Verster, and then there would have been a presentation to Gen Webb.  Once again, if this presentation took place or not, I cannot specifically say, I cannot recall it.

MR LAX: Now the reason I'm asking this is, rationalisation means lots of different things, depending on the context, what was your object of this exercise?

WOUTER J BASSON: Mr Chairperson, I cannot specifically remember the guidelines.  If one had files, one could definitely be able to find out.  I cannot say to you what the purpose was, the purpose was possibly to inform persons of ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Can I stop you because your speculations of what it might have been about, frankly don't help us a great deal, you know, and you could be influenced by all sorts of things you've heard in the interim.  If you can't remember, just say you can't remember.  That's a lot safer for everybody.

WOUTER J BASSON: Very well, I do not recall.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I want to move on to a new issue.  Mr van Zyl testified about a meeting that took place at the Rosebank Hotel where he heard you and Mr Maree discussing Lubowski.  Mr van Zyl's evidence was - and I'm not here referring to his Section 29 statement, I'm referring to his qualified evidence that he gave when I cross-examined him, Mr van Zyl said that he was curious as to why Maree was working on Lubowski, he said he asked you and you said to him "it did not matter."  If I understand his evidence it didn't matter to him, it had nothing to do with him.  Van Zyl says he then left the room.  What do you have to say about that evidence?

WOUTER J BASSON: I deny that I discussed Mr Lubowski.  It did not take place.  Mr Maree was not involved.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So is your evidence that at no stage in your capacity as the Co-ordinator of Region 6 did you ever discuss Lubowski with any operative?  Is that your evidence?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, that is not my evidence.  Specifically where Maree was involved, Mr Lubowski was never discussed.

MR KAHANOVITZ: In other words as I understand your evidence you concede that you were involved in the operation to monitor Lubowski during his presence in South Africa?

WOUTER J BASSON: That is correct, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You however deny in terms, that you at any stage had any discussion with Maree concerning Lubowski?

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And therefore Van Zyl's evidence on this score is a complete pack of lies?

WOUTER J BASSON: It's not true.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Excuse me?

WOUTER J BASSON: That's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You say he's telling lies.  Alright.  Now what Calla Botha has to say is the following, he says that -let me go back one step ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just let's try to go forward Mr Kahanovitz, rather than back.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do you agree with the evidence that has been given by more than one witness, that Donald Aitchison was recruited as an unaware member of the CCB?

WOUTER J BASSON: He was recruited, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do you agree with the evidence that Chappie Maree was his handler?

WOUTER J BASSON: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now at page 7 of bundle B, Calla Botha ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is that B or D?  B?

MR KAHANOVITZ: B.
	... Calla Botha makes a statement about what transpired within Region 6 after Aitchison's arrest.  Maybe if you could just read - have you had an opportunity to read this before?

WOUTER J BASSON: I think I have read it once, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The crux of what he says is the following.  He says that after Aitchison's arrest an emergency meeting was held at the Indaba Hotel or the Rosebank Hotel.  He says there was chaos at the meeting, everybody was worried about Aitchison's arrest, particularly Maree and Burger.  It was then recommended that Maree must lie low, and Botha says he was also told to lie low.  Now let's just stop there.  Was any CCB meeting ever held to discuss Aitchison's arrest?

WOUTER J BASSON: Mr Chairperson, I think it is possible that there was a meeting, maybe not specifically about Aitchison's arrest, it could have been a scheduled meeting. That is possible, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I'm sorry I don't understand your answer at all.  My question was, was any CCB meeting ever held to discuss Aitchison's arrest?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, it could have been part of a general meeting.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What else was discussed at that meeting?