Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: They were founded to work with the Governmentbut once they started working, they worked in a completely differentdirection than for which they were intended.   They seem to havebeen hijacked and used for the opposite
2. intention /...
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intention as that for which they were intended.   
MR ?:: The Cabinet of Kwandabele at that stage, was theCabinet for independence, but the population were against it.

ANSWER: Yes, that's the case.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it be convenient if we took an adjournmentnow so that you might consult with members of the family beforeyou start questioning?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : (Inaudible).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll adjourn now and you will call usimmediately you are ready?
COMMISSION ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe are you ready to proceed?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : I am Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Cronje did you know the membership of theMbkhoto, how many were there in that area?

ANSWER: I did not know.

<UNKNOWN>: Would you say it was a big political organisation?

ANSWER: I would suppose it was quite a large organisation.

<UNKNOWN>: Would you simulate(?) it to ANC and PAC?

ANSWER: Not at all.

<UNKNOWN>: Was there any link or any connection betweenMbkhoto and the ANC in Kwandabele?

ANSWER: Not as far as I know.

<UNKNOWN>: How do you come to link the activities of Mbkhotowith activities of the ANC in the area as you have indicated inyour application?

ANSWER: The process which they followed, the
2. destabilisation /...
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destabilisation which they caused, was similar to that of theANC, this was arson, murder, consumer boycotts, school boycottsetc.

<UNKNOWN>: How many school boycotts had Mbkhoto organisedand when?

ANSWER: I would not be able to say I don't have the numberof school boycotts.

<UNKNOWN>: Are you aware of any school boycotts that wereorganised by Mbkhoto?

ANSWER: There were such school boycotts that they arranged.

<UNKNOWN>: ...Mr Pete Ntuli involved in those school boycotts?

ANSWER: Whether he was personally involved or whetherhe gave instructions to the Mbkhoto I wouldn't be able to say.

<UNKNOWN>: ...about this bomb, how big was it, the massweight thereof?

ANSWER: I am not quite sure, Captain Hechter handledthe bomb, I didn't even see the bomb.

<UNKNOWN>: You were told that there was a bomb?

ANSWER: There was a bomb, it was in a bag, it was wrappedup in a bag so I didn't know the size of the bomb, I'm not anexplosive's expert.

<UNKNOWN>: ...say that this bomb as you know it was madewas designed to blow up that motor vehicle into pieces?

ANSWER: It was designed for that purpose.

<UNKNOWN>: To destroy everything?

ANSWER: That is the case.

<UNKNOWN>: I want you to have a look at a postmortem.

CHAIRPERSON: I see you've marked it EXHIBIT N alreadyhave you?
2. MR /...
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : That is Exhibit N Mr Chairman, members of theCommittee, thank you.   Mr Chairman and members of the Committeethat postmortem report comes out of an inquest that was held inSiabuswa, Inquest No 20/1986.   I have the inquest with me whichis an official document if the members of the Committee want tohave copies thereof later, I can make them available.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: I want you to have a look at page 2 of thatpostmortem report.   Would you agree with me that the resultsas reflected on page 2 are commensurate with the type of a bombthat was designed as you have explained?

ANSWER: Yes certainly.

<UNKNOWN>: ...the Committee, the Exhibit N was HANDEDUP, I want to put it on record, by consent of all the parties. Brigadier can you tell us how this bomb was attached to the vehicle?

ANSWER: The bomb which was made was particularly designedfor the Toyota Cressida vehicle and would then have attached somewhereunderneath the driver's seat and would then have been fitted,I suppose with little clamps, but Captain Hechter would be ableto give you far clearer evidence in this regard.

<UNKNOWN>: On page 115, paragraph 2 of your application,you state that with regard to the design of the bomb to fit theToyota Cressida model?

ANSWER: That is the case.

<UNKNOWN>: Who made those special arrangements, who wasinvolved?

ANSWER: That was Special Forces who designed the bombfor us.
2.

<UNKNOWN>: /...
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<UNKNOWN>: Who in particular was involved?

ANSWER: They had a technical section, I don't know whoexactly would have done it, but the bomb was provided by Joe Versterwho handed it to Captain Hechter.

<UNKNOWN>: You testified on page 117 that investigationwas then made but you were never questioned about this but yousubmitted a report, you say "ek het slegs 'n verslag ingedienso ver ek onthou". (No English translation given).

ANSWER: That is the case Chair.

<UNKNOWN>: ...the contents of your report were?

ANSWER: The contents of my report gave the reason formy presence, namely to visit the office of the Security Branchin Kwandabele to do an inspection at that office.   That I hadvisited the home of the Chief Minister and that the reason thereforwas that I wanted to meet him personally just in general and thatI had general tasks to perform in Kwandabele.   I made no referenceto the bomb in the report.

<UNKNOWN>: For whom was this report intended?

ANSWER: I handed the report to General Schutte who wasthe investigating officer in the inquest.

<UNKNOWN>: ...you made this report and submitted it toGeneral Schutte, you knew that the contents thereof were untrue?

ANSWER: The contents were not entirely untrue, I didin fact also visit my office there, but with regard to the bombcertainly it was untrue.

<UNKNOWN>: Seeing that General Schutte was investigatingand you knew as a police officer that he wants all informationabout what happened, why didn't you mention it?

ANSWER: Certainly they would then have charged me ifI mentioned that I had planted this bomb.
2.

<UNKNOWN>: /...
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<UNKNOWN>: On page 118, the second paragraph, you statedthat "information was received that Pete Ntuli and the Mbkhotoacted with the intention of making Kwandabele ungovernable, withthe purpose of making the existing Government ineffective andto destabilise it."   Did you believe in this information?

ANSWER: Certainly at that time I believed this informationthat Pete Ntuli did destabilise the area.

<UNKNOWN>: What in particular had Pete Ntuli done to bringabout this belief in you?

ANSWER: He was responsible for consumer boycotts, sayfor instance he would walk into a shop and tell the people toclose the shop down, that he would cut off their water and electricity.  He was, therefore, in fact busy with the destabilisation ofthe area.

CHAIRPERSON: You are really saying all this because theseare reports you'd received from somebody else about him walkinginto the shops, compelling shops to close down, this is informationsomebody else gave you, is that not so?

ANSWER: That is the case.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Brigadier, you may have answered the questionI'm going to ask you, but bear with me if you have.   Can youexplain if this man, Pete Ntuli, was a Cabinet Minister and hewas put there by the South African Government, why would he thenall of a sudden turn around against the very Government?

ANSWER: This is the case, he was placed there by theGovernment but his actions were of such a nature that the policyof apartheid of the then Government with regard to the independencewhich they wanted to achieve for
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Kwandabele, was entirely prevented by his purposes of destabilisation.

<UNKNOWN>: You answered a question earlier on that wasput to you about the people of Kwandabele not wanting independence,and you confirmed that.   Do you remember?

ANSWER: That is the case.