Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-13

MS PRETORIUS: Are you aware of it that from 1990 until 1992, that the South African Police went to Kwamadala Hostel several times to search Kwamadala Hostel?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Which hostel?

MS PRETORIUS: Kwamadala Hostel.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not reside at Kwamadala, I cannot know about what happens there.

MS PRETORIUS: Well I'm putting it to you that that is what happened.  Apart from you, you said yesterday you don't hate anybody, but was there a feeling of hatred between the ANC members and the IFP members in Boipatong?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The ANC is a big organisation, it is not a two people affair.  So they hated the organisation as such.

MS PRETORIUS: Who hated the organisation?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am just saying that the ANC is a big organisation.  If two or three people within the organisation hates some other persons, you cannot claim that the entire organisation hates the IFP.  There was no trouble between us.

MS PRETORIUS: In 1992, before the attack?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The problem was they tried to kill some people in the township, those people that they'd been involved in some conflict with.

MS PRETORIUS: So there was trouble in 1992 between the ANC and the IFP in the township, you would agree to that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, we were attacked and killed as ANC members.

MS PRETORIUS: That is before the attack I'm talking of, Mr Baloyi.  There was trouble in the township between IFP and ANC members.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: There may have been problems that they may have to negotiate and solve.  I cannot comment on that.

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Baloyi, the people from Kwamadala Hostel, were they mostly IFP members, do you know?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: You would not be in a position to know about people who stayed in the hostel because it was not near the township.  The people who resided at Kwamadala were mixed, some were ANC, some were IFP because they were all employees of Iscor.

MS PRETORIUS: When Father Patrick phoned you that night, that afternoon, why did he phone you, what did he tell you?  He said there's an imminent attack, but what did he want you to do, why did he phone you specifically?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: He should have called me, he liked me.  He a priest, he was involved in God's work and he was interested in the safety of all people.  He called me so that I could also try and take safety precautions.

MS PRETORIUS: What did he tell you to do?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: He said I should be on the alert because there was an attack that was to be launched, nothing else.

MS PRETORIUS: He did not tell you to warn the other people in your street or other members of your church?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Because he called in the afternoon I only informed my family, I did not go out.

MS PRETORIUS: Why not, Mr Baloyi?  It sounds so improbable that if you get a warning that you're going to be attacked, that you'll keep it to yourself, only warn your family to be on the alert and leave all your neighbours.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I may have told a few people, but if I told five people, it doesn't account for the rest of the neighbourhood.  Yes, there were a few people that I told.

MS PRETORIUS: Who did you tell, Mr Baloyi?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Do you want their names?

MS PRETORIUS: Yes, please.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I told about five people.

MS PRETORIUS: But I would like the five people's names.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I cannot give you their names, because I did not enquire from them when I told them this information, they are just members of the congregation.  Maybe if Father Patrick testifies you can pose questions to him.

MS PRETORIUS: But how did you tell these five people, did you go and see them, did you call them, what did you do?  How did you tell them?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I did call them on the phone, but I was not specifically telling them about the attack, I just warned them about the possibility.

MS PRETORIUS: But if you phoned them, surely you can remember at least one name.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I have children.  Do you want my children's names?

MS PRETORIUS: I want to know the people, the other people that were not of your family, the members of the congregation you've just told this Committee that you phoned, I would like one of their names.  Preferably all of them, but apparently you can't remember them.  Can you give us just one name?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It was not just one person that I called, I called Shirley, Lizzie and Elizabeth, Betty.  I don't know why you want this information.  I just called those people.  These people are not the attackers.

MS PRETORIUS: Can you give me their surnames, Mr Baloyi?

CHAIRPERSON: Would you please give me the names again, you said it's Shirley ...?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I called Shirley, Lizzie Tsotetsi, Gertrude Mbele, Joseph Mbele.

MS PRETORIUS: What is Shirley's surname, Mr Baloyi?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Tsotetsi.

MS PRETORIUS: And Betty and Lizzie, are they also Tsotetsi?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

MS PRETORIUS: Do the Tsotetsis all live in the same house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, they did.

MS PRETORIUS: And Gertrude and Joseph Mbele as well, they live in another house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, they lived in one house.

MS PRETORIUS: Why did you tell me a minute ago you can't remember their names, because now you remember their names and their surnames, Mr Baloyi.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It was not important, it is not important because if you telephone a person you do not really concentrate on their name.
	I am here to testify about what I witnessed, not anything else.  I thought you're going to question me on what I witnessed, not about the telephone calls that I made, no.

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Baloyi, just answer the questions.  I'm sure your lawyer and advocate and the Chairperson will stop me if they feel I'm asking you questions that I should not ask you.  So just answer the questions.
	Was this the first time you had been warned about an imminent attack?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

MS PRETORIUS: Do you have a motorcar?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do have motor vehicles, not just one.

MS PRETORIUS: Why didn't you leave Boipatong that night if you ...

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do as I please, I cannot be forced to do something.

MS PRETORIUS: Is it not so that you did not regard this warning as serious?  And that is the reason why you did not warn your neighbours and other people of the    congregation and why you did not send your family away.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Do you want me to respond?

MS PRETORIUS: Yes, please.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not know where I would take my children because I did not know exactly where the attackers were going to launch the attack.  If I had taken them somewhere it could have been that that is where they are going to be attacked.  Even if I was to inform other people from the streets, it would also have been, it would not have worked because I was not sure where these attackers would come from.

MS PRETORIUS: Is that the reason you did not warn the people in your street?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did inform some people, that was enough.  They were also going to inform others.

MS PRETORIUS: The question is, is that the reason that you did not think it was going to be in Boipatong, that you did not warn the people in your street?

UNKNOWN: But he did inform some people and warn some people in his street.  He said that twice.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: He did not say it was in his street, Mr Chairperson.  I'm sorry if I'm wrong.
	Is that the reason you did not warn the people in your street, Mr Baloyi? - because you did not take it seriously.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct.

MS PRETORIUS: Is it correct that in Boipatong it was winter on the 17th of June 1992?