Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR SEMENYA: We have heard the evidence from members of the then Crisis Committee.  Did you get a visit from a Crisis Committee?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not get a visit from a Crisis Committee, I got a visit from church leaders.  Various church leaders and they didn't come on the same day.

MR SEMENYA: Was there a concern raised about the young men at one point by the church leaders?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

MR SEMENYA: What was your reaction to that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: My reaction was when our family Doctor and a close friend of the family, Dr Motlana, came and expressed these concerns and said that the church actually wanted these children, because they were believed to have been forcibly removed and forcibly staying at my place, I then handed them over to him.

MR SEMENYA: At this point, which house were you staying in?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was in Diepkloof.

MR SEMENYA: And why had you left Orlando West?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: My house had been burnt down in Orlando West.

MR SEMENYA: Did you know why it was burnt down?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I didn't know why it was burnt down, until there were enquiries and we heard publicly that it was burnt because of the boys who were staying at my place.

MR SEMENYA: Was Rev Chikane responsible in any form around that time with the house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Rev Chikane actually came the very same day the house was burnt down.  I had been at University, I was studying at the time.  On our return with Zinzi, we were then confronted with this, the house was burnt down, and Rev Chikane came to see us at my office which I had in Orlando.

MR SEMENYA: Can you help us with the context here.  How was it that various young people would come and stay at your house during those days?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Various youths came to seek refuge in my house.  Originally when I returned from Brandfort I found a state of chaos within the community, youths were fighting amongst each other and these were youth organisations, democratic youth organisations.  It was SACO and SOSCO I remember very well.
 They were fighting with gangsters and I brought them around a table to discuss those problems.  And that is how they came to stay at my house.  They were on the run from the police for one thing or another.

MR SEMENYA: And we have already heard there was then a decision to form a football team?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, they took that decision to form a football team and they informed me about it.

MR SEMENYA: Did they approach you about the outfits and tracksuits for the football team?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that is how in fact they came to report to me.  They wanted my assistance in so far as getting them football uniforms.  They didn't have resources of their own.  They were youths who had been displaced in their homes and from the schools.

MR SEMENYA: Did you attend any of their soccer games?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I do not play soccer, I didn't attend any of their soccer games.  I do recollect though attending the first game they played in Orlando West.

MR SEMENYA: Then we know there was a time when there were concerns about the activities of the Mandela United Football Club.  Did you discuss this matter with your then husband?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, he did discuss it with me.

MR SEMENYA: And what was the decision about the football team?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He instructed me to dissolve the football team.

MR SEMENYA: And what did you do?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did just that.  I told the boys that the instruction from Robben Island was that, from Pollsmoor was that the football team must be dissolved.

MR SEMENYA: What became of the tracksuits and the jerseys?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I did not take them back because they had already been using them and they were not using them only to play soccer.  They just used to wear them.

MR SEMENYA: We saw even Jerry Richardson had one of the tracksuits during these hearings, would you know how he came of this tracksuit?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I have no idea.  I suppose it was part of the public exercise to play to the gallery of the international media.

MR SEMENYA: Let us now talk about another area which is the unfortunate death of Dr Asvat.  What was your relationship with him?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I had a very close relationship with Dr Asvat.  He was not only my Doctor when I was in Brandfort, he visited me frequently in Brandfort and he was the only Doctor who ran clinics, community clinics for me in Brandfort.
 He volunteered that service because he said he was holding a health desk within AZAPO.

MR SEMENYA: How did the information about his death strike you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: How did it?

MR SEMENYA: How did the information about his death strike you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was deeply shocked and very saddened.

MR SEMENYA: We have heard here the  evidence of the killers, Dlamini and Mbatha who on one version would say that they committed the murder on Dr Asvat at your instructions.  Had you met Mbatha before?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I actually saw them for the first time here.

MR SEMENYA: Had you met Dlamini before?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I had never met any of them.

MR SEMENYA: And around this event, the suggestions and insinuations were that you would have probably resisted some form of criminal prosecution because there were allegations which were made by these two people at the time of their arrest.  Did you have any contact with the machinery of the criminal justice system to influence their decision one way or the other?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, I did not.  When these allegations started surfacing, I then contacted my lawyers and advised them that this was happening and there were media reports to that effect.
 I then went to them and instructed them to advise whoever was spreading these rumours, that if they had any case against me, I should be charged.

MR SEMENYA: Speaking about being charged and going back a little to the death of Stompie.  Did you have an occasion to be told by say Mr Mufamadi that they had suspicions that Katiza was an informer?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Not at all.  I was shocked actually when I learnt here in this forum, that Sydney Mufamadi had this information at his disposal.

MR SEMENYA: If you were advised at the time that there was a suspicion that he is an informer, how would you have handled the situation?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I would have handled the situation differently.  I would have had to rebuke various actions I had taken to try and resolve these rumours, the question of these rumours and perceptions.

MR SEMENYA: We have also heard that the criminal investigations around the death of Dr Abu-Baker Asvat were re-opened.  Were you ever in discussion with the Minister for Safety and Security around these issues?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was similarly shocked to learn that not only was my own colleague, Sydney Mufamadi holding that knowledge that there was this process in place.  I was shocked to learn that he was proceeding with these investigations without even just the courtesy of advising a colleague and a political colleague for that matter, that there was this problem and not asking me to try and help him resolve it.  I would have been free to explain to him whatever explanation he would have wanted from me.

MR SEMENYA: Were there any occasion or opportunity for him to request a statement from you if he had wanted to?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He would have obtained a statement from me and much more than that, as much cooperation as he would have wanted from me, in relation to this matter.

MR SEMENYA: Just as a matter of tidying up that aspect, there was a statement now we know, issued by the Crisis Committee.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Issued by?

MR SEMENYA: Issued by the Crisis Committee.  Did you confront the Minister about that statement?