Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-17

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Not before he started working for me, no.
	Your honour, on the 6th Fouche again came to me.  It was approximately seven o'clock that night and he gave me information that the people would want to commit an armed robbery at the Hypersave Business Complex at Vaalpark and that he must accompany them.  He also said that they will rob the place at 5 o'clock the morning of the 7th.  I conveyed this information to my District Commander, Swanepoel.  Fouche also told me that he will use a vehicle, that they would steal that evening.  It would be a Honda Ballade.  However, later that evening he would come back to me to tell me if a vehicle was found.  At approximately nine o'clock I brought all the detectives together in my office who were on duty as well as Warrant Officer in charge of the dog unit, as well as members of the Internal Units who worked in Sasolburg at that stage and then I informed them regarding the information that we received.  All of us then planned how to act.  We were concerned about the safety of Fouche.  
	From my office we went to the scene where we looked at the scene.  Because of the location it was very difficult to determine what would - it was in a neighbourhood which was known to me to be very dangerous or it would be dangerous for the people or that these people would be dangerous and that they have got various firearms and also access to a wide variety of firearms and I also knew at that stage that they were involved in attacks and murders of six policemen.  According to the information that Fouche conveyed to me, the last of these policemen were shot the Friday evening the 3rd April.  According to him one policeman was shot and killed and one was just injured.  This information I checked up on and it was confirmed that there was such an incident but that one policeman was seriously injured and one not as seriously injured.

MR MADASA: Just before this planning were you satisfied at that stage as to which organisation these people belonged?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes I knew that they were trained M.K. members.  Fouche also told me that they were active in politics and that they talked about politics a lot.

MR MADASA: What did you make out of the fact that as much as they were political activists they were involved in criminal activities?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: As I've already said it was clear that these people were not trying to enrich themselves.  It was merely about the collection of weapons and the distribution of it.

MR MADASA: And therefore what were you planning to do with it?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Your honour, the whole planning was that these people had to be arrested.  It was also the main purpose why I got Fouche to infiltrate them in order to get as much information about them as possible.  I would also like to mention that before this incident of the evening of the 6th we asked the Security Branch in Sasolburg, asked them for money in order to buy weapons but they could not provide us and then we decided to go to Eikenhof to approach them in order to help us.  They were contacted and came to my office to help us.  In the office it was myself, Sergeant Fouche and Lieutenant Botha of the Security Branch in Vereeniging.  Sergeant Fouche told me that during one evening in Heidelberg where they looked at weapons once again, a police official came and sold weapons to these people or wanted to buy from them and the impression that he got is that the Police and these members smuggle weapons together.
	When the Eikenhof people stopped and got out of their vehicles, Fouche identified one of the people as one of them who on the previous evening was there at Heidelberg concerning these weapon transactions and he was very worried that he would now be identified.  I realised that the situation now that Fouche's life is now in danger.  I told him to get into a cupboard in my office in order for him to hide there and then I told Warrant Officer Swanepoel of Eikenhof that we cannot continue with these actions because the informant has not yet arrived.  It was merely done because I was now aware that some of these members could possibly be involved in the smuggling of weapons.  At that stage I also had knowledge that various shotguns were gone or were stolen from the Sebokeng Municipal Police which had similar markings or was engraved in a similar fashion as the one that I knew of.  Botha confirmed that the suspect worked with them at that stage and was regularly seen with the people from Eikenhof.

MR MALAN: Could you just explain that please?  Botha told you?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That the suspect that we thought stole the weapons or sold to the Municipal Police was seen regularly with the Eikenhof people and that they worked with the tracking down unit.

MR MALAN: When did Botha say that to you?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That same day when the Eikenhof people were identified.

MR MALAN: Did he name the person?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes that is correct.
	Your honour, I would just like to mention I did the 3 Million investigation or so called 3 Million investigation in Kroonstad.  The reason why I'm saying this is that the political motive around which I saw these people, the 3 Millions were ANC Youth League people who acted alone with the ANC people in the townships.  There was also talk or information in front of this Commission about Police involvement concerning these acts and you also already found that it was politically motivated and that there was Police involvement and you have already granted amnesty to various members of these 3 Million gang.
	I also did an investigation after that at Tumahole neighbourhood in Parys where the so called Noxi gang was involved, that was already put to you at various other opportunities and various of those applicants were granted amnesty and it was also politically motivated and allegations were made that the Police was also involved in the provision of firearms to these people.  What I would like to mention to you now is that the modus operandi of this specific gang was similar to that of the 3 Million and the Noxi gangs.  There was also Police involvement, there was also talk of weapons that was given to Inkatha members or supplied to Inkatha members.  That's exactly what happened at the 3 Million affair and it was never argued and I accept it that the leader of the 3 Million gang was a cardholder and he came to my office or they came to my office in order to get bail for some of the members.  You will see that according to the modus operandi of these specific people it was similar to the 3 Million and Noxi gangs and I believed that these people were politically active through their acts and the arming of the groups to disrupt the government.	To come back to the happenings of that evening ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: Sorry Mr de Ru, my knowledge about the 3 Million gang is not first hand knowledge it is only through documents that I received this information.  Why are you saying that this gang is similar to this gang that you are concerning in your application.  Were they not busy with murder and robberies, that they also got weapons and exchanged or got diamonds in order to get weapons?  How was it similar?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: For the reason that they were also armed and that the Police were involved, that murder was committed, there was arson and the damaging of property and that there were robberies.  It was similar - in this case there were diamonds involved but it was also involved in the collection of more firearms.

MR MALAN: Where did you give evidence of murder where these people were involved?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Where I've mentioned that six policemen were killed.

MR MALAN: In your evidence that there was an incident where one person was seriously injured and another one lightly injured, that's the only one that we know of.