Human Rights Violation Hearings — Leandra — 1997-06-03

MR MALAN: Right.  The name Lucas Mbonane, is that person known to you?

MR MAYISA: Yes, I know him.

MR MALAN: I am not sure, is Mr Mbonane here?  He made a statement to us and he is still scheduled to talk later.  He is in the hall so we will hear more from him.

MS SEROKE: Lucas Mbonane.

MR MALAN: Lucas Mbonane.

MS SEROKE: Has since died.

MR MALAN: Has he since died?

MS SEROKE: He died in March.

MR MALAN: Okay, sorry, I have just been informed that Lucas has since died and that his father is here.  Thank you very much.  Mrs Mayisa, Mr Nkabinde also informed us here that the period 85, 86 was very confused with this division, that people really did not know who was where and why especially with the JMC that he referred to, the Joint Management Centre that was developing here with some of the councillors, some of the community people, individuals and others involved on that side.  It seems as if part of the community then or some of the people in the community supported the idea of removal, supported Chief Minister Skosana and others ideas and that your late husband, Mr Nkabinde and others were really resisting it working for the interests as they saw it.  In your statement you refer to vigilantes, you refer to them as Inkatha.  At some place you even refer to them as freedom fighters, I think on page, well that is not important at the moment, but you even refer to them as freedom fighters.  Can you tell us a little as to how you understood the division at the time?  Was it clear or was it for you too a bit of a confused situation.

MRS MAYISA: They were calling themselves that.  When the attacked they said they were Inkatha people.

MR MALAN: Did you understand that to mean that they were members of the Inkatha Freedom Party or was it just a name for the vigilantes here?

MRS MAYISA: That much I do not know.  I would not know.

MR MALAN: Then, just one question outstanding is the issue of the family situation.  Did your husband have two wives?  Is it yourself ...

MRS MAYISA: Yes, we are two.  She is here also.  Stand up.  Stand up.

MR MALAN: Thank you very much Mrs Mayisa.  You may sit down again.  And you also in your statement tell us that you have, between the two of you, 17 children that your husband left.  Can you more or less tell us their ages, how many of them are still young that are still at school?

MRS MAYISA: That would be quite a challenge.

MR MALAN: Then maybe let me not bother you with that then here, but if we can get the particulars, because that is very important for us to consider when we talk about what we do after the Truth Commission and in what way we assist people and trying to find out exactly what their needs are.  So I do not want to put you in a spot and, ...

MRS MAYISA: Okay.

MR MALAN: ... but I take it that there is some information that we need to get from you and I would ask our staff with you there to see to it that we just find a way of catching up on that information too.  Mrs Mayisa, this is a, it remains very, very difficult.  One does not really know where closure comes into the process.  We will, probably in this country, still have to live for quite some time closer to each other and trying to understand and really explain the past and getting to a peace with our past, but for the moment from my side thank you very much.  I have no further questions.  My colleagues may have and I hand over to Mr Lewin again.

CHAIRPERSON: Thanks Wynand.  Joyce Seroke.

MS SEROKE: Mrs Mayisa and your son you have just said that you saw people who assaulted your husband.  You made mention of the name here, Sipho Gadebe and Maboy Zondo who is late, here in the TRC.  We always want to know from the statement about the names that have been mentioned so that we could notify the people who have been implicated, whose names have been implicated.  Now, we did notify, but they could not respond.  Maybe we could have even gotten a chance to even give Sipho Gadebe to say his part of the story.  He was notified, but never responded, but I would like to know from you is that of Sipho Gadebe if he is still around.

MR MAYISA: Yes, Sipho Gadebe is around.  Yes, he is a CID, he is a policeman.

CHAIRPERSON: Could we have quiet please.  Could we please have quiet.

MS SEROKE: What is he doing now?

MR MAYISA: He is a CID, he is a policeman.

MS SEROKE: Is he with the police force?

MR MAYISA: Yes, yes, all those who committed these atrocities are policeman even as I am speaking.

MS SEROKE: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Joyce.  Tom Manthata.

THOMAS MANTHATA: My question is has since there been quiet in Leandra ever since Baba Mayisa was killed?  Was there peace in Leandra?

MR MAYISA: You mean at home or in the location.  It is quiet, it is stable in the location.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And at home of all those children Baba Mayisa has left, how many of them are working and how many of them are still at school?

MR MAYISA: No one is working.  There is no one at home and we have our own houses as well.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Perhaps the question should have been how many are still with Mama Mayisa and how many of you are independent now?

MR MAYISA: We are five, those of us who are independent.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And you help maintain the two families?

MR MAYISA: Yes.

THOMAS MANTHATA: No further questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Wynand Malan again.

MR MALAN: Mrs Mayisa or Mr Mayisa, any one of you would be welcome to answer.  What is still confusing a little is that in the statement Mrs Mayisa says that the tension was due to the vigilantes, she refers to them or the Inkatha or whatever, did not want to know anything about chieftaincy.  Now that is foreign to my experience, because really the struggle, the liberation movement, the youth were more opposed, generally, to chieftaincy than were vigilantes or councillors or the structures.  So this is an out of the ordinary relationship where the Chief found himself on the side of the youth movement and the liberation forces.  Was it indeed something to do with the chieftainship, I just want to make sure or was it simply the alignment of the specific Chief with the liberation struggle?

MR MAYISA: Yes, why I am saying this they were fighting for freedom.

MR MALAN: And Chief Ampie also happened to be fighting for freedom?

MR MAYISA: That is correct.

MR MALAN: It was not a case of the vigilantes being against the concept of the Chiefs, because that is one of the statements that were made as the statement was taken, but I just want to make sure that that is not the meaning of the statement.  The vigilantes did not oppose the institution of Chiefs, they opposed Chief Ampie?

MR MAYISA: No.

MR MALAN: Okay, thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Joyce, Tom.

MS SEROKE: I am finished.

THOMAS MANTHATA: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Ma Mayisa, I would just like to say two things, because the story as it comes through to me is one of a very personal grief leaving aside the politics of the whole situation and the fact that your husband, your late husband was regarded as very much a community leader, but the story that you have told us at a personal level is a very terrifying one think, because you have described very graphically and your son Josia has helped to show how, at a personal level, the suffering and the pain can, is felt in situations like this and I think ...

MRS MAYISA: Even now I am facing problems with the children.