Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: A Policeman by the name of Nkupeni Gumedi came to me.  He was staying at Bopela.  He said that there was an IFP member called Qwamanda who stayed in an area called Sangonya.  He told me that this person was dead and he had been killed by the UDF.
	They had removed him from a bus on his way to or from work, I cannot remember.  These people were known or their whereabouts were known.  He asked me to assist him with equipment.
	I then gave him equipment, although I cannot remember how many AK47's I gave him, short guns as well, 9 mm pistols.  I gave him those weapons.
	They then went and carried out this operation.  At the scene, AK47 empty cartridges were found.  Investigators then went to Zakhile Mkehle and asked for the AK that was used in the attack to be thrown away somewhere so that they could pick it up and report it.
	This Policeman came to me and asked me to give the AK that I had given to the people who had carried out the murders at Sangonya. 
	They told me that they had been informed by Zakhile Mkehle.  I was surprised because Zakhile had told me that Van Vuuren's group were members of the IFP.
	How did it come about that they were now asking me about AK47's?  Our discussion became tense to the point that they told me that they know that I am an MK member and that they knew that the weapons that I was using, belonged to MK.
	Then I told them that I knew these people as members of the IFP.  I told them that I had left Umkonto weSizwe a long time ago and the guns that they were talking about, belonged to the IFP.
	They asked me to prove what I was saying.  I took them to M.Z. Khumalo in Ulundi.  After having spoken to Zakhile,  Zakhile said that I should go with them to Ulundi.  When we arrived at Ulundi, on our way there we had picked up Fourie who was in the KwaZulu Police, either at Umlazi or KwaMashu and he accompanied us.
	When all this happened, I was already arrested.  When we arrived at Ulundi, M.Z. Khumalo told them that we were in a war situation and that the AK47 belonged to him but he wouldn't give the guns to them.
	He told them that the guns were not with him, and he wouldn't give them to the Police.  The Police said that they would keep me in custody, when he brought the AK47, then they would release me because I had given the guns to the boys.
	Those boys had already confessed that the person who had given them the guns, was (indistinct).  Then we came back, and I was detained.

MR STUART: Were you subsequently released on bail?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I was.

MR STUART: Did you hear about that charge again later?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, that was the end of the whole crime.

MR STUART: There was a time when you were sent into hiding by the Planning Committee, do you remember that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I do.

MR STUART: Were you called to a meeting of the Planning Committee?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is true.

MR STUART: Where was that meeting?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: The meeting was in Durban, in one of the hotels although I cannot remember the name of the hotel.
	M.Z. Khumalo, Louis Botha of the Special Branch, Van Niekerk, JP and Kevin were present.  It was discussed that because the trail was not going well, or this charge was not good, I wouldn't go back to report at Webber Police station as per bail arrangements.
	I was to be taken into hiding.  In the meantime they would be trying to destroy this charge, to get rid of the charge.

MR STUART: What did they fear would happen if the charge against you persisted?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It would emerge that the IFP possessed AK47's, that would lead to the disclosure of the Caprivi training.

MR STUART: Whereabout did you go into hiding?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I was taken into hiding in the mountains at a place called Catkin Peak, towards Escort, in the mountains of Lesotho.
	There was a base that was controlled by the Military Intelligence. At this base I found the following people, the Lesotho Liberation Army that was trained there, but I was going to go under cover as a person from Rhodesia, Ndabele.

MR STUART: Were you subsequently moved to another camp?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I was removed and taken to another base, Umkozi.

MR STUART: How long were you there approximately?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I do not remember correctly, but it was a few months.

MR STUART: Were there other people there who were also in hiding from the Police?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, there were.

MR STUART: Who were amongst them?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: There were those involved in the case, the (indistinct) case and Nuni Hlongwane.  There was also Wela Nqono and others that were in hiding or were involved in crimes.

MR STUART: Was Zweli Ndlamini there as well?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Zweli Ndlamini came when I was already there.

MR STUART: Whose camp was this Umkozi camp?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: This camp was built by the Military Intelligence, by the owner of the camp was M.Z. Khumalo.
	The Commander was Captain Langeni.

MR STUART: What was the purpose of the camp?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It was a base for the Caprivi trainees, where they would collect and then they would be dispersed to different areas.
	But people who were at the camp were the contra mobilisation, and the defensive group.  The offensive group had its own base at Port Dunfort, that is Empangeni.

MR STUART: During the period 1989, 1990 you say in your statement that you returned to Mpumalanga, do you remember that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I do.

MR STUART: What was the situation in Mpumalanga then between the IFP and ANC?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: The situation was quite bad because Zakhile Mkehle had been killed.  There was a vacuum that was left open.
	M.Z. Khumalo said I should go and assist there, because the IFP was being wiped out in the area.

MR STUART: What were your objectives there?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It was to rebuild the IFP by trying to control the attacks, to regain the places or the area that had been taken by the UDF.

MR STUART: Did you have contact at that time, with Military Intelligence?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, I did not.   When I arrived, the first person I met was Sipho Mlaba.  When I went to his house, there were some men that I didn't know.
	He explained to me that these men were soldiers and were given to him to be his body guards.

MR STUART: What was Sipho Mlaba's position at that time?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: He was the Chairman of One North Branch.

MR STUART: Unit One Branch North of Mpumalanga?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Of the IFP, yes.

MR STUART: You were starting to tell us about these soldiers that you met there, who were they?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: When I talked to them, I discovered that all of them were under the Military Intelligence.  They used to guard certain areas.  I will mention those that I remember, Sipho Mlaba's house, Mkehle's house, and also at Ward 7, some Policeman's house which, whose name I cannot recall now.
	They used to guard those areas.  Sipho then told me that he had been informed that I was coming and then the person in authority, had requested a meeting at Pola Poni.  I then went to meet this person.
	When we got there, he introduced himself as Major Paul Berry.

MR STUART: Do you know if that is his real name?