Amnesty Hearings — Carltonville — 1998-08-12

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  You've told us that the criminal element, the thugs were a criminal element, now the applicants were opposing this criminal element.

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Yes, the applicants were against their criminal offences.

CHAIRPERSON: In doing that, the applicants were not involved in a political struggle of any kind, they were merely engaged in clearing up their area of criminals?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Yes, they were trying to do away with the criminality in the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  That in itself was not a political activity, that was an anti-crime activity carried out by the community.

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I take this as one of the steps taken by the organisation which decided to have an anti-crime campaign, to do away with crime.  It was part of the organisation's strategy.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] part of the community as a whole, the community as a whole was against the criminal activists, these chaps just happened to be members of the ANC Interim Committee.  They were doing what other members of the community were doing, fighting crime, not so?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Yes, it's correct, they were doing what the community was against.  They were fighting what the community was against.

CHAIRPERSON: Quite right.  So in fighting crime, that particular kind of activity which the community as a whole was engaged in, that is not political activity.  Do you understand the meaning of the word: "political"?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Yes, I understand what the word: "political" means.

CHAIRPERSON: They were engaged in anti-criminal activities, not necessarily political activities?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: They were fighting these criminal elements under the campaign that was an anti-crime one, to do away with the criminal elements in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand all that.  Is that all you can say?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: What I've already said, there is nothing more to add other than to say that each and every organisation has got its campaigns.

CHAIRPERSON: Chris?

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know Mr Jeremiah Ramagotedi?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Yes, I do.

ADV DE JAGER: He states in an affidavit that he was the Secretary or the Interim Secretary of ANSIL at the time, September 1991 in Kutsaong.  Is that correct or who was the secretary, you or him?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I was the Interim Secretary.  Mr Ramagotedi became the secretary after we had launched the ANC Youth League officially.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but he says: in September when this incident happened he was the secretary, so then ANSIL wasn't interim then it was already launched.

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I don't understand your question.

ADV DE JAGER: He states in an affidavit that he was the secretary of ANSIL in September 1991, would that be correct?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Yes, he became the Secretary of the ANC Youth League after it was launched officially.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you perhaps help us, when was the Youth League launched officially?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I don't remember well when it was launched, either the month or the year.

ADV DE JAGER: And he also states that the ANC refused to arrange and pay for the defence of the applicants, would that be correct?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I do not know as to whether the ANC denied to pay the legal expenses of the applicants.

ADV DE JAGER: But wasn't it the policy of the ANC to help their members if they were in political trouble?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I don't understand your question Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Didn't the ANC assist their members if they were involved in politically motivated offences or trouble?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Yes, ANC helps its members.

ADV DE JAGER: And now the ANC refused to help these members.  Weren't they refused because they were in fact not members at that stage but were members of a break-a-way group?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I would answer your question in this way:  I don't remember that the applicants re ...[indistinct] their membership from the ANC.

ADV DE JAGER: There's only further aspect I want to take up with you.  You said Hendrik reported to you about their intention to go to Bekkersdal.

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Yes, Hendrik told me and then I informed the committee.

ADV DE JAGER: So you weren't present at any meeting of the Youth League where a decision was taken to go and fetch those people wherever they may be, in Bekkersdal or wherever?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: No, I was not present.

ADV DE JAGER: And the other committee members of ANSIL wasn't present as well because you reported to them, they didn't know of this undertaking either?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: The committee did not know.

ADV DE JAGER: So they went without the authorisation of the Interim Committee?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: They went there without the permission of the ANC Youth League Committee because they went to Krugersdorp.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, I'd like to refer you to what my colleague has been saying in Jeremiah's affidavit.  Jeremiah says in his affidavit that
"As far as my knowledge goes, the murders that they committed were not politically motivated"
And the ANC also refused to arrange and pay for their defence, does that surprise you?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I would say I did not know as to whether ANC, or it was the policy of the ANC not help their members who have fallen foul of the law.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] in this particular case that a view is expressed that these murders were not politically motivated, they were not political.  The ANC refused to arrange to pay for their defence.  Do you understand that?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any comment to make beyond saying that you're not aware of it?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I cannot comment but what I know is that I did not know that the ANC did not help their people with legal expenses.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Leah?

MS GCABASHE: On the same point.  The applicants told us yesterday that the ANC, and I presume the Youth League, arranged for Legal Aid forms to be given and that's what they referred to as the assistance they got from the ANC, do you know about that, the Legal Aid forms that were given to them?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I heard about it, that they received Legal Aid forms, even though I did not know that they were Legal Aid forms.

MS GCABASHE: Do you know who provided these Legal Aid forms?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I don't know who that person is.

MS GCABASHE: Were you personally involved at all in trying to find ways of assisting the people you knew as members of your organisation?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: If a person was in trouble, wanted to have legal representation or money for legal expense, I would meet the lawyers for Human Rights to help those people who were in trouble.

MS GCABASHE: Did you do that in respect of these applicants?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: What I did is that I made arrangements for them to meet Sally Seally who was a lawyer for Human Rights.

MS GCABASHE: And were you doing this with the authority of the ANC Youth League at the time, finding somebody who could assist them?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I did that as the Secretary of the ANC Youth League.

MS GCABASHE: With the knowledge of your committee?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I informed the committee.

MS GCABASHE: And there was no question raised at that level, when you were talking about it at the committee level, that these people had not committed a politically motivated offence?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: ...[inaudible] was not politically motivated but I tried to inform them that those people who did that kind of incident did that trying to perch criminal activity in our community.  In that regard, to me, I saw that that incident was politically motivated.

MS GCABASHE: Now was a final decision taken by you as the Youth League on this issue, whether it was politically motivated or not?