Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-27

PROF DE KOKER: If you will be so kind to allow me, then I will withdraw this question, but I would like to know notify you that we might come across it at a later stage precisely where it will link with the evidence that Major Mbatha gave and I would like you then, perhaps, or for us, then, to reconsider the issue.
	The particular hand grenade apparently had a history.  Can you, perhaps, tell us how it came into your possession, how it left your possession and then came into your possession again before you handed it to Mr Smiles?

LAURENS MBATHA: The process, actually, that it should come into my possession started when the situation in Windserton, a clear, serious fight, actually, emerged in the area where the local people, actually, fled their places.  I came into the area with the basis of trying to restore what, at that time became clear, that the whole issue appeared to be political in nature.  So, to clear the problem up it became very clear that a difference was between a member, who was part of the civics, of which, at the very same time, Cosas, Youth League, ANC's Women League, even the ANC was controlled by the very same individual.  The whole situation ended up in a type of fighting, explosive situation in the area.
	I went into the area, spent a period of about three months just to try and clear up that particular area, tried to restore the structures concerned and tried to put away the civics as a community based structure, that the civics, actually, is a border structured opened for all political parties and, at that stage, it was totally unacceptable for them to gain control over the structures of the league and Cosas that was existing, because lives of people were also at stake, because the in-fights were there.  At that type of situation, when I was moving around, I was moving around with that grenade, it was after we had cleared the problem, because everybody, really it was a very, a situation that is very unhappy, that was, was prevailing there.  A situation occurred in Daniel Scale ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I am not so sure whether we should drift that far from the question.  I think the original question, as I understood it, was how it came about that you possessed that hand grenade.

PROF DE KOKER: And then, Mr Chairman, to whom was it handed.  It was handed back and then handed to Mr Smiles and I would like Major Mbatha to take us through those actions.

LAURENS MBATHA: When I went to Daniel Scale there was fight between, an imminent fight between the marshalls and the police.  After addressing the marshalls to stay away from the problem ... (intervention).

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mbatha, may I interrupt?  The incident you are referring to now, in Daniel Scale, did it come before the Windserton incident or after?

LAURENS MBATHA: It is, actually, after, because I want to establish the point, the grenade, because the point that is coming up here is to he, actually, did lend to and how did it came it should lend to him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Well, I think you must first explain how it came into your possession before you can get to a point where it lands into somebodies elses possession, until it, also, lands into the hands of Mr Smiles.

LAURENS MBATHA: It came into my possession because I was working within the Windserton area and it was a fighting faction area that had started in the area.  There were clear, open fights.  It was at that time where I carried, I was moving around, carrying out that grenade.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Who gave it to you?

ADV DE JAGER: You told us the hand grenade was given to you by Thabo Morose.  Is that correct?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes, it is true.

ADV DE JAGER: So you had it in your possession then?

LAURENS MBATHA: They were all in my possession.

ADV DE JAGER: Did it leave your possession at any time?

LAURENS MBATHA: When we came from Daniel Scale ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: And (...indistinct).

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Did it leave your ... (intervention).

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: ... possession?  And to whom did you give it?

LAURENS MBATHA: I gave the grenade to Sipho Mbakwe.

ADV DE JAGER: Right.  Now, from Sipho, when did you receive it back?

LAURENS MBATHA: The Monday morning, the day of the march.  That time it was, we never knew that there was going to be a march.  I came the morning, because I gave him on Friday, because I was still going to Windserton and took it from Sipho.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.

LAURENS MBATHA: That was the morning.

ADV DE JAGER: So, you gave him on the previous Friday and ... (intervention).

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.

ADV DE JAGER: ... (...indistinct).

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes.

PROF DE KOKER: Thank you Mr de Jager.  Major Mbatha, I just want to clarify, Daniel Scale, you visited Daniel Scale on the Friday.  Is that correct?

LAURENS MBATHA: I cannot specifically exactly say, but I think it is around Friday.

PROF DE KOKER: The handed grenade was, therefore, in the possession of Mr Mbakwe, according to your statement, from that day till the Monday, which would be three or four days?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes, yes.

PROF DE KOKER: And you retrieved the hand grenade the Monday morning?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes.

PROF DE KOKER: How did you retrieve it and at what time?

LAURENS MBATHA: It was exactly in the morning between eight and half past eight.  I went to the ANC Youth League, went to Sipho and requested for the grenade of which he gave me.

PROF DE KOKER: What happened to the grenade then?

LAURENS MBATHA: I took it back to the office.

PROF DE KOKER: Major Mbatha, in the documents at our disposal, page two, if I could specifically draw the attention of the Committee, you will find on page two the affidavit by ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry to interrupt you.  Sipho was not at the office when he handed the grenade to you?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes, the morning that day he was in the office.

ADV DE JAGER: He was in the office?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: So, you said you went to the Youth League, you asked him for that grenade and, you went to the Youth League, you asked him for the grenade and he gave it to you and then I took it to the office, but you were in the office.

LAURENS MBATHA: The Youth League was sharing a different office and the ANC was sharing a different office.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

PROF DE KOKER: If I may draw the attention of the Committee to page two of the documentation in front of you.  I believe that is the second bundle of documentation.  The written affidavit by Mr Sipho Moses Mbakwe.  According to this statement, Major Mbatha, second paragraph Mr Mbakwe acknowledges that he accompanied you to Windserton and other places.  Then if I may quote.
"When he dropped me off back home I realised that there was something extra in my bag.  I saw that it was a hand grenade.  I left my bag in the Kombi while we were at Windserton.  I knew it must be his.  He was the only person who had access to such things.
		The following day I confronted him.  He told me he had forgotten it and would fetch it from me.".
Is that a correct statement?

LAURENS MBATHA: It is rather unfortunate that it is not a correct statement.

PROF DE KOKER: So, according to you, Mr Mbakwe lied under oath in this affidavit?

LAURENS MBATHA: I would, actually, say the statement is not correct.

PROF DE KOKER: Therefore Mr Mbakwe, according to you, lied in this affidavit?  Furthermore ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I think it is incorrect.  He says it is incorrect.

PROF DE KOKER: Incorrect.  Then, if you ... (intervention).

MR TSHOLANKU: Mr Chairman, if I may interject.  The document that he refers to on page two, that Prof de Koker refers to on page two, I looked through it, it does not bear any resemblance of an affidavit.  It is like a simple and straight forward statement.  If you could also look at it and properly refer to it as a statement.