Human Rights Violation Hearings — Messina — 1997-04-08

THOMAS MANTHATA: Who is this Pops who's house was burnt down and it was related to political issues?

MR MORABA: They, when teachers were dying they were blaming him for those deaths.  That's why his house was burnt down.  My uncle Chipa too, was also suspected to be, it was suspected that my uncle was killed by this Pops.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Are you telling us that these teachers who were killed were politically involved?

MR MORABA: No, I didn't say that.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I'm only asking.

MR MORABA: No, they were not politically involved.  The community was concerned that the teachers were dying at the time,  and also the student were concerned that who was going to teach them.  I'm not the one who's saying that.  What I'm saying is, what was done and said by the community.  But I myself, I'm not saying so.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.  Can we settle down please.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I actually want to understand  here.  Are you saying the teachers, students and the community were thinking that teachers were dying because of political, their involvement in politics?

MR MORABA: The community here in Messina is, is united.  If there's anything which causes pain in the community, they would get together, discuss it and try to fight that problem.

THOMAS MANTHATA: This Pops who was a, a witchdoctor, how was his, his, his being a witchdoctor related to politics?

MR MORABA: I can't explain that because I don't know.

THOMAS MANTHATA: At the time, were you a student?

MR MORABA: Yes, I was.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Were you one of the leaders in, in the political organizations?

MR MORABA: No, I was not.

THOMAS MANTHATA: How did they relate you to the burning of  Pops' house?

MR MORABA: Actually I used to be a victim of, of police, the police at the time.  I thought there was one policeman who hated me an, at the time and, and my brother too, because everything which used to happened at the time, we had to be invol, to be taken and, and, it was, it didn't happen many times that if, if something was happening we were not taken to the policeman.  We were always, we would always be taken to the policeman even if we not involved.  They will just create stories so that we get involved.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Were you not members of any political organization at the time?

MR MORABA: I was a member of the ANC at the time.  My brother Baldwin was a member of the PAC but that is not the reason.  I never thought that was the reason why we should always be involved if there was anything wrong in, in Messina and again, my brother being a PAC, I cannot find the reason why we would always be taken away if there was something wrong.  That's why I'm thinking and I used to think that there was one policeman who used to hate us.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I have another question.  Where you not in the leadership of ANC at the time?

MR MORABA: No, I was not.  I was an ordinary member.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Is there any other reason that you can, it can tell or explain us which made the police to be after you?

MR MORABA: Before this incident there was one Mr Ramoba who was a CID who used to come to our house to come and fetch us.  He would always take us as his customers.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Was Ndo your lawyer and was he a lawyer to the ANC or he was your private lawyer?

MR MORABA: He was the Human Rights lawyer.

THOMAS MANTHATA: How did he relate your incident to politics at the time?

MR MORABA: I could not meet my lawyer personally so I don't really know.  I think he met our seniors who were concerned about us and why I was arrested at the time.

THOMAS MANTHATA: When I ask you these questions Moraba, it's because we want to know and understand things which happened to people because of politics at the time.  We are trying to understand why were these people doing these things to you.  If we don't find the relation of what happened to you, with politics, it becomes difficult for us to understand.   What you're saying to us is that when you were arrested they asked if you knew Barend Strydom.  Is that Strydom?

MR MORABA: Yes, that's Strydom.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What did you understand at the time when they asked you about Barend Strydom?

MR MORABA: What I understood is that they were being racist.  They were trying to show us that Black people were nothing.  That's what I understood at the time.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Was it, was it how you answered them when they asked you whether you knew this person?

MR MORABA: Yes, that's how  I answered because it, it really disturbed me and I was angry.  That's why I told them because it was painful to be asked that.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Did you know about Mteteledi?

MR MORABA: There was a rumour at the time that there's, this person known as Mteteledi but I didn't know him at the time.  I heard that there were Umzondele's and Mteteledi's who were ANC members but I did not know them.  I never met them before but I had the courage anyway to tell them that there were people who were strongly involved with the ANC and that I was personally involved as well.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you, I don't have further questions.

RUSSELL ALLY: I just want to come back to this issue of Pops being accused of practicing witchcraft because this, this is not the first time that this issue comes up and particularly here in the Northern Province so I wonder if you could just assist us.  How did you understand this, this, this question of witchcraft and, and accusations which were, which were made against people for practicing witchcraft?  What's your, your understanding of witchcraft?

MR MORABA: The whole thing of witchcraft, I don't know what to say about it because this whole thing of burning people because I wasn't there.  I would not be able to answer this question on witchcraft because if I'd known at first how witchcraft is happening, maybe I would also have been involved in burning the house, but because I didn't know why and what is witchcraft I did not go there to burn that house so I don't know.

RUSSELL ALLY: The, the three teachers you speak about who you say died mysteriously.  Do you have any idea how they died?  What, what was the cause of their, of their deaths?

MR MORABA: No, I do not know but what was said was that Pops was responsible but I do not know what killed them but my uncle, what I understood about my uncle is that, that guy was after my uncle and everywhere where my uncle had been, he was also involved.  That was a rumour but the way he died, he died from being knocked over, knocked down by a train but it, it was, it was a miracle the way he died.  It was mysterious.

RUSSELL ALLY: But you say he died.  He was knocked down by a train.  So what was, it was an, an, an accident presumably.  What was, what was mysterious or, or strange about the way that your, that your uncle, cause I sure you know about your uncle's case.  What was mysterious or strange about the circumstances of your uncle's death?

MR MORABA: I know that my uncle was normal and a normal person cannot stop the car on the train tracks, on the train spoor and seeing that the train was coming.  Nobody could do that if that person is normal.  He knew, the normal person has have to stop that train, the train would smash them, crush them but that's why I say it was a bit mysterious.  That's how I see it.

RUSSELL ALLY: Just to come back to, to the person who was commonly known as, as Pops.  You say that he was a petrol attendant.  What else do you know about, about this person.  Did this person have any political involvement, other than this description of this person as a petrol attendant, what else do you know about him?

MR MORABA: I only knew him as a petrol attendant but he had a big house.  He was a person who wasn't suffering.  That's how I knew him.  There's nothing else I know about him.

RUSSELL ALLY: Okay.

DR RANDERA: Miss Seroke?

MS SEROKE: Joseph, you are saying, your uncle was knocked down by a train on the train spoor.