Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-22

MR NGOBESE: He did not say that, on that particular day that when the police say that you must do that, but it was a usual thing that we will be escorted by police in every journey that we undertake.

MR TIPP: Is it a usual thing that all the persons who participate in marches of that sort will obey the instructions of any police officer?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, it's a usual thing.

MR TIPP: Mr Ngobese, you have said that you were told that the rally was to deal with the problems that the King had and the concerns that the King had.   Were you told what the reason was for the concerns of the King?

MR NGOBESE: What was being said about the King was that his kingdom shall come to an end;  that is what was being said that his kingdom shall come to an end in KwaZulu and this KwaZulu thing must come to an end as well.

MR TIPP: Who did you understand might be the cause of that threat to the Kings sovereignty?

MR NGOBESE: I am not too sure but it's what I used to hear, that is what I used to hear.

MR TIPP: Let me ask you directly, did you used to discuss with your friends that the ANC was part of the problem facing the King?

MR NGOBESE: I don't have any recollection of that.

MR TIPP: Does that mean that the ANC never featured in your discussions with your friends as a problem for the people of KwaZulu and the King?

MR NGOBESE: What I knew was that ANC and KwaZulu people were not on good terms.  When ANC looks at a Zulu person he will be bound to kill that person, that is according to my knowledge.

MR TIPP: You say that was common knowledge, was that your belief at the time?

MR NGOBESE: Yes.

MR TIPP: Did you then view the ANC as your enemy?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, it was true.

MR TIPP: Mr Ngobese, I want to go back now to the point we were at a little while ago.  At Park Station, after you had journeyed there from Nancefield ...[intervention]

MR NGOBESE: Please repeat your question.

MR TIPP: I want to go back to the point where you had arrived at Park Station after your journey from Nancefield.

MR NGOBESE: Yes, I hear that.

MR TIPP: Now, can you describe for us as best as you can please, what happened once you had got off the train and moved up onto the upper level of Park Station and you moved out into Noord Street?

MR NGOBESE: What I know is that we alighted from the train and we parted or we divided into groups.  The Nancefield was aside and we went up the stairs, we got up Park Station and we went down.  We met the police and the police instructed us to go down Noord ...[intervention]

MR TIPP: I'm sorry to interrupt you but I want to please just take it step by step if you don't mind.  You will have full opportunity to say everything you want to say about it.  I want you please to tell us where did you form up into your groups, was that still on the station platform level or when you had come up onto street level?

MR NGOBESE: When we were still at Park Station, that's when they divided us into groups.

MR TIPP: You can assist us, I'm sure you know Park Station better than I do, but when the train comes in from Nancefield side, you come up stairs or escalators to come the street level, is that correct?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, that is correct.

MR TIPP: And from there you would move out into the far western side of Noord Street, quite close to Hook Street?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, that is true.

MR TIPP: What I particularly am asking you is whether the various groups were formed up as separate groups at the lower level, the platform level or on the street level?

MR NGOBESE: They were formed at the platform level.

MR TIPP: You were certainly not in the first group, you followed, I think you said, two other groups, you were in the third group?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, it might have been like that.

MR TIPP: With Induna Kanjele in charge of your group?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, it is correct.

MR TIPP: Do you recall who the other Indunas were who were in charge of other groups?

MR NGOBESE: I wouldn't know whether they were forward, but they were assigned to their own respective groups as well.

MR TIPP: The groups in front of you then moved up to the street level and your group followed behind them?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, there would be just a few metres between the groups.

MR TIPP: Each of these groups was large, containing several hundred persons?

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, each group had approximately a hundred people or more, that's the question.

MR NGOBESE: Yes.

MR TIPP: Are you able to estimate how many hundred were in your group?

MR NGOBESE: It's difficult but I can estimate, we were approximately 150, plus minus 150, something around there.

MR TIPP: Was this something that was arranged beforehand at Nancefield or only on arrival at Park Station?  By this I mean the allocation of persons into different groups.

MR NGOBESE: The planning of the groups was just done or conducted by the leaders.  It was just done randomly, they would just point at how many they want to have in their group, those who would be the Indunas doing that.

MR TIPP: Now Mr Ngobese, as the groups then moved up onto the street level in Noord Street, I want you please to tell us how they moved, in what direction.

MR NGOBESE: As I have already indicated or said, that when we left Noord, going down we were following the groups in Noord Street and turned into King George.

MR TIPP: In other words, all the groups proceeded eastward along Noord Street, past Hook Street and past Wanderer's Street, is that right?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, that is right.

MR TIPP: At the stage that you turned right into King George Street, there would therefore have been hundreds of marchers, Amabuthu, ahead of you?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, that's true.

MR TIPP: Did they proceed straight down King George Street and across de Villiers Street?

MR NGOBESE: I did not see whether they crossed but we were following them to the direction they were taking.

MR TIPP: When you yourself in your group turned from Noord Street right into King George Street you would have seen that there were other groups ahead of you with hundreds of people ahead?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, that's true.

MR TIPP: What happened to them, did they proceed peacefully down King George Street?

MR NGOBESE: I think they peacefully proceeded because we were assaulted, they were left alone.  I think they peacefully passed and they were not assaulted but we were assaulted.  I think they were left alone to go on ahead.

MR TIPP: Let's just deal with your position in your group, were you near the front of your group or near the back or in the middle, can you tell us?

MR NGOBESE: Please repeat that last part of the question.

MR TIPP: Were you at the front of your group or at the back of it or in the middle of it?  Can you give us some idea?

MR NGOBESE: I was in the front and I think my Induna was three metres ahead of me.

MR TIPP: Well, in that case you could have seen quite clearly what was happening ahead of you, is that correct?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, that is correct.

MR TIPP: Then I want to repeat the question I put to you a minute ago, what happened to the groups that were moving ahead of you in King George Street ahead of your group?

MR NGOBESE: At that time, I never saw it, I don't know what happened to it.  When we were being shot at, I don't know the end of that group but I thought we were still following that group.

MR TIPP: Mr Ngobese, I don't want to take up the time of this Committee unnecessarily but I'm going to ask you again please to tell us what happened to the groups involving hundreds of people that were moving ahead of you?

JUDGE NGCOBO: Probably you should ask him when last he saw that group because as I understand his evidence he says, at the time when they were shot at he couldn't see that group, he had always thought that they were simply following that group.