Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-07-01

UNKNOWN: Just one question, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Roux, this is a process of reconciliation. Do you think that this process that we are all going through has some value? Has it any value for you?

MR ROUX: Has it got value for me?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR ROUX: Yes, certainly.

UNKNOWN: Are you glad that there is such an openness and that it is happening?

MR ROUX: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Talking about reconciliation, do you think you will ever become reconciled within yourself?

MR ROUX: That is the case.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRINSLOO

SISI KHAMPEPE: Sir, we share our deepest sympathy with the loss of your wife.

MR ROUX: Thank you very much.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Before the incident happened, which resulted in the loss of your wife, when had you last seen Mr White?

MR ROUX: It was, I think it was on the 25th of October.

SISI KHAMPEPE: 1991?

MR ROUX: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: 25th of October you said, 1991?

MR ROUX: Yes.  Hold it. September, sorry, September.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And how often did he use to visit your family?

MR ROUX: Very often.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Approximately in a week, how often would he pay you a visit?

MR ROUX: He was not permanently in Louis Trichardt, but when he was in town, he always came to visit us.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was he aware of the type of weaponry that he kept in your house?

MR ROUX: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And was he also aware of where the weapons were kept?

MR ROUX: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was it kept in any of the cupboards in your house?

MR ROUX: No, I fixed brackets against the wall and then the rifles were put away on those brackets.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were these brackets fitted in any particular room of the house?

MR ROUX: No, there was one in my room and one in my daughter's room and one in the other daughter's room.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Would you want to be afforded an opportunity to speak to the two applicants and to accept that opportunity if one was given to you?

MR ROUX: Yes, I think so.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Does this mean that your wife must have taken the gun or probably took one of the guns to the cupboard with her, although she didn't use it?

MR ROUX: No, it was in the cupboard.

JUDGE WILSON: It was kept in the cupboard?

MR ROUX: Yes.

HASSAN MALL: Do I understand you correctly to say that as far as you are concerned, she did not receive any serious injuries as a result of being shot at?

MR ROUX: Certainly, yes.

HASSAN MALL: But the cause of her death was the fact that her throat had been slit, her throat was slit with a knife?

MR ROUX: No, she had knife wounds in the chest.

HASSAN MALL: Knife wounds in the chest?

JUDGE WILSON: Many of them?

MR ROUX: I think they referred at the post-mortem to in the order of seven or 13, I am not quite sure.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Roux, did you say that there was a firearm found next to your wife's body?

MR ROUX: No, the rifle was in the cupboard.  It was built against the wall inside the wardrobe.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I see, thank you.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you very much.

MR ROUX: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
ADV MPSHE CALLS

ALETTA MAGRIETA ROUX: (Duly sworn, states).

UNKNOWN: Magrieta, where do you live?

MS ROUX: I live in Louis Trichardt. I am currently living in Louis Trichardt.

UNKNOWN: There was evidence given that there was a relationship between you and the late Jurgens White.

MS ROUX: That is correct. Jurgens had been known to me since 1979.  We were at primary school together and at high school he attended in CBC in Pretoria while I went to school in Louis Trichardt and we had a relationship up to December 1990.  I ended the relationship because at times he was away a lot of for many days at a time I didn't hear from him, and I heard talk of his going to France for five years or so to join something like the Foreign Legion.

UNKNOWN: I didn't understand that.

MS ROUX: He wanted to go to France to take part in some movement or other, such as the Legion of Soldiers in France itself.

UNKNOWN: Did you know of his activities?

MS ROUX: No, I had no knowledge of them. There were parts of his life that he kept, he was very secretive about and I accepted that the movements that he began or while we were still friends, it was something that he kept to himself, for reasons of security.

UNKNOWN: Did he perhaps at any stage reveal his political views to you?

MS ROUX: I had also known that he was a right-winger, but I never realised that he was so far to the right.

UNKNOWN: It has been testified that he was a member of an organisation, the SNP.  Do you have knowledge of that?

MS ROUX: No, I had no knowledge of that.

UNKNOWN: At lunch-time you informed me that you wanted to tell something to this Committee.  Could you tell it to us now?

MS ROUX: Could you just repeat the question?

UNKNOWN: At lunch-time you informed me and you said to me that you wanted to talk to the Committee. I invite you to proceed.

MS ROUX: Yes, there are a few things I would like to say. In view of the applications from the applicants. I don't think anyone can realise what an impact the deeds that they committed had on our family, our friends and the whole community of Louis Trichardt. My mother was a much loved person who wouldn't have harmed a fly.  And to establish a movement which in the first place was underground movement. If you want to go as far as establishing underground organisation, it must perhaps warn you that these things that you are doing are wrong.  It was a nightmare the 14th of October 1991.  Just when we thought we were over the worst, the court case began and took place over six weeks in Pretoria. The trial was disposed of, sentence was given, we accepted.

HASSAN MALL: Tell us what sentence was given?

MS ROUX: Judgment was given and then we felt it is over.  Now at last we can carry on with our lives, and yesterday afternoon we were called and told to be here. Now we were told that the case was being brought up again.  I think at this stage, we all simply feel that it should just be over, whatever the result, whatever the verdict, we will have to reconcile ourselves with that.  Just so that we can carry on with our lives.  The nightmare that has disrupted our lives so much, we want to put that behind us.
	The applicants are saying that they are sorry. I believe that, I believe that they are sorry.  But then I think it is unfair of them to expect us to give them back their lives, who is going to give our lives back, who is going to give our mother back?  Who is going to give my father back his wife? Is that fair?  To give them amnesty, to free them of deeds that they committed and then to leave us with the loss that we have suffered in our lives, and that we will never be able to get back.

UNKNOWN: Is that all?

MS ROUX: That's all, thank you.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV PRINSLOO

UNKNOWN: Ms Roux, you are aware Mr Du Plessis was found innocent of the murders or any involvement?

MS ROUX: Yes, I am aware of that, that he was found innocent, but he was the leader of the organisation, indirectly he did play a part in the events which occurred on the 14th of October in Louis Trichardt.

UNKNOWN: So wouldn't you say that if his attitude is that they should serve their full sentence, wouldn't you struggle to find  ... (intervention).

MS ROUX: I beg your pardon?

UNKNOWN: If your attitude is that as I understand you, that particularly Mr Van Wyk, if your attitude is that they should serve their sentence in full, will that give you peace?

MS ROUX: Well, I feel from any Christian viewpoint it is a factor that one does forgive, but at the end of the day one wants justice to happen.  My feeling is that justice will not be done if after they have only served two years, that he should now be freed already.

UNKNOWN: Even if it is determined that he has remorse and that he is fully rehabilitated?