Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-02-01

MR MALAN: The handgrenades that you found in the cache were they South African made or foreign?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Even though I didn't see them because I didn't go inside the house to search the house, I heard that they were not from South Africa, they were foreign handgrenades.  I heard that because I was not even interested in going inside the house when that happened because I was very disturbed of how this happened.

MR MALAN: What will your reaction be if it's put to you that this whole description of his death was merely rigged by yourself and other Security Force people, to give it the look that it was an accident?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: When it happened at that time, even though it was supposed to happen at that time, it didn't happen to serve my interest because I don't know what orders other members had.  But at that time what happened is that the mistake he made was he had a handgrenade on his hand, but I'm not saying that I wouldn't have got the opportunity to go on and follow the instructions that I got.

MR MALAN: I just want to verify one point.  You testified after the shots the handgrenade exploded, does this imply that the safety pin of the handgrenade was already removed?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, because it was not only one shot before the handgrenade exploded, there was a sequence of gunshots and then the grenade followed, so indeed the safety pin had already been removed.

MR MALAN: Alright.  The very last question that I would like to pose to you, in retrospect did you think that the attempted murder and subsequent murder of the deceased was a violation of human rights?  And if so, why?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, it was the violation of human rights because when a war was declared, every time a war is declared by two sides, soldiers of both sides had to serve the interests of their side.  So in that kind of situation we are indeed violating human rights, but you would know that you are doing this to further the interests of your side and to show that your side is stronger than the other side and it will win.

MR MALAN: Do you agree that it would have been more appropriate to go through the channels that were in place through the judicial system, to arrest him on a warrant of arrest, to put him on trial, to give him a chance, the audi alteram rule, so that he can pose his side of the story to a court of law?  Wouldn't that be the more appropriate route to follow than a mere execution?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It would have been an appropriate way but in other units there are units that are specified for that and there units that are not specified for that, but because of the stages of the war and the situation at the time, we would evaluate the tactics and the strategies of an enemy and we practise the same tactics of the enemy, to show them that we are above them.

MR MALAN: And lastly, do you have a sincere remorse of what happened ex post facto, when you take all the facts together?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, I do have a sincere remorse about what had happened and a war is something that is not required because the person who is on the opposite side, it happens that maybe you know each other but because you are in a war you have to ignore that you know this person and I would like that such a war would not be happening again and I regret taking part in such a war.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that is all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALAN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Malan.  Mr Mnqandi, any questions?

MR MNQANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman, yes I will ask a few questions.
	Mr Gumengu, where were you born?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: In eDudjwa Diman.

MR MNQANDI: And during the course of your work with the Security Police were you used to coming to Umtata?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, I used to come to Umtata.

MR MNQANDI: I want us to come to the day of the quarry incident.  When you left Butterworth were you aware that the deceased, Zokwe, was also around Umtata?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: There was information that where Tami Moweli was he would also be there, but at that time there was no information that we would arrive here and he would be here but we knew that it was possible that he was around.

MR MNQANDI: When you apprehended Mr Zokwe you said you told them, whoever was driving, that they must drive towards the outskirts of town, what was the purpose of so driving out of town?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: It was because I wanted to do as Capt Mfazwe had told me to do because he said that he was not be arrested, I had to make sure that he was not alive.

MR MNQANDI: So you were going out to kill him?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, I was going out to kill him.  I don't know about the others orders.

MR MNQANDI: You say you don't know which direction you took, is that a fact?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I do remember that we took the direction towards Tsolo, but we took a lot of routes when we went out of Umtata.  I don't know these roads but I know that we used that route out of Umtata.  I don't know whether we were in Umtata or Lebode but we went in that direction.

MR MNQANDI: How many were you in the vehicle when you left?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: There were four of us including Sthembele.

MR MNQANDI: Was the deceased handcuffed in any way or was he just free?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: He was not handcuffed.

MR MNQANDI: Why wasn't he handcuffed?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: No-one said he must be handcuffed.  Because I had no reason to handcuff him but I knew that the time had come to do as I was instructed.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Mnqandi - wasn't it normal to handcuff somebody who you apprehend?  You don't have to wait for somebody to tell you.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I was not arresting him, but I was going to kill him as I was instructed to do so when we found him in Umtata.  I don't know whether others had orders to arrest him or to do what with him, but I had no orders to arrest him, so I was not arresting him.

MR MNQANDI: Was he in any way searched before he was put into the vehicle?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I don't remember anybody searching him, except that he was told to get into the car and he did so.

MR MNQANDI: So you didn't yourself specifically search him?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: No, I didn't, but I cannot dispute when it is said that somebody else searched him, but I didn't personally search him.

MR MNQANDI: Weren't you afraid that he might be having a weapon with him?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: No, I wasn't afraid.

MR MNQANDI: When you reached the scene where the attempted execution took place, you have told this Tribunal that you were first to go out of the vehicle, what were you going out to do?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: When I went out of the car I was going to the toilet.

MR MNQANDI: And the other members, what were they doing at the time?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: They also got out of the car and they stood next to the car with him.

MR MNQANDI: Had you told them to take him out of the car?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: No, I didn't say that they must take him out of the car.  I just said they must stop the car in that spot, I didn't say that they must take him out of the car.  I wanted to go to the toilet at that time.

MR MNQANDI: Approximately what time was it when you arrived at this ...(indistinct)

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I think it was about nine or ten at night.  I am not sure, but it was during the night.

MR MNQANDI: Was there any light in any way in the area you were in?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I didn't notice, or if there was light I can't remember.  What I can remember is that there were houses not far away, but I can't remember whether I could see those houses because of - there were lights in or not.  I'm not sure whether there were lights in or not, I'm not sure.

MR MNQANDI: But you were able to see each other in the area.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MNQANDI: How far from the others were you when you noticed the deceased running?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I think from here to the offices of the Magistrate.

JUDGE MILLER: ...(inaudible - no microphone) knowledge.