Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: I don't remember well.

MR RICHARD: Right, now you were present today and you heard Clive Mkubu the third applicant give evidence and his evidence was to the effect that you received a phone call to be on standby and later in the day he came to fetch you?  Do you agree with those statements or dispute that?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: It is so.

MR RICHARD: Now when he phoned you did he give you any reasons as to why you were required to be on standby?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: No.

MR RICHARD: At what time did he arrive at your house later to fetch you that day?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: It could have been some time in the afternoon although I don't remember the time.

MR RICHARD: Was it daylight or night time?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: It was just towards dusk, it was not very dark.

MR RICHARD: Right, now when Mr Mkubu came to fetch you did he explain why you had to go anywhere, what the reasons for the meeting might be?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: No.

MR RICHARD: Now when did you first become aware of the fact that the deceased was to be executed?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: I did not know that he was going to be killed.

MR RICHARD: When he was killed did you do anything to try and stop it happening?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: There was no time for such and nothing occurred in my mind.

MR RICHARD: Why did you think it was necessary for you to be there?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: I don't want to lie and commit myself, I think the commander will be in a better position to give explanation.

MR RICHARD: Were you confused as to why you had been brought there?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: I don't remember.

MR RICHARD: Were you at any stage ever suspicious of Mr Dube, had doubts about his ...(intervention)

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: That's what he did?  What was it that he did that brought me to be suspicious about him?

MR RICHARD: Did you trust Mr Dube?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: As a commander, yes.

MR RICHARD: Did you have any doubts about him at any stage?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: No.

MR RICHARD: What was your opinion of his explanation for killing Mr Dhlomo?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: Please repeat that question?

MR RICHARD: What was your opinion of his explanations for killing Mr Dhlomo?  Did you believe they were sufficient?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: After he gave us the explanation I held no opinion.

MR RICHARD: So that means you didn't accept the explanation or reject it?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: I don't want to say that, I don't remember.

MR RICHARD: Were you ever involved in any other summary executions?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: No.

MR RICHARD: Were you ever aware of any other?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: No.

MR RICHARD: Now you've heard me put various propositions to the last applicant where I outlined that - sorry one last questions before I do that.  You've heard the last applicant, Mr Tshabalala say the deceased joined the cell during August/September, do you agree or disagree with that?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: I don't want to lie, I don't want to commit myself to this, I have no recollection of the dates.

MR RICHARD: Now while he was a member of the cell did Mr Dhlomo take part in any of the submissions or operations?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: I don't remember.

MR RICHARD: Well the evidence is that he did not, do you disagree with that or you just don't remember?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: I don't remember.

MR RICHARD: Do you think if indeed he was an informer it was necessary to execute him?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: During those days it was public knowledge that the informers will be killed.

MR RICHARD: Do you still think Mr Dhlomo was an informer?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: I did say that I bear no knowledge.

MR RICHARD: Now from the time that Mr Dhlomo joined the cell to say six months, a year after his death, did anything happen to the cell which might have made him suspect that an informer might have been involved in the cell or had access to information relating to the cell?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: I don't remember, I remember nothing.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions?

MR KOOPEDI: Just one Chair.
	You have just said that it was publicly known that informers were killed during those days, do you recall that?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: Although I don't want to say as to who would execute but mainly people were killed during that time who were known or labelled as informers.

MR KOOPEDI: And those informers were exposed to the public to have been informers and that was made a reason why they were killed, the public was made to know.  Is it not so?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: During those days informers were killed, that was the practice.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and everybody knew they were informers, they were told "this is an informer who is being killed."?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: And in this particular case of Sicelo Dhlomo, he was thereby exposed to the public that he was an informer is it not so?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Are you able to explain why?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: Although there's nothing much for me to explain but the way we operated then, it was not exposed.  Whatever we were doing we were doing it underground.

MR KOOPEDI: Did it not surprise you when you were instructed not to expose an informer?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: Please repeat your question?

MR KOOPEDI: Did it not surprise you when you were given instruction by your commander not to expose an informer?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: That did not cross my mind and again even if it did I would have said no, I think I'm mistaken here because whatever we were doing we did it underground.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-examination.

ADV SANDI: Mr Zungu, just explain something to me.  At the place where Sicelo was killed, what explanation was given to you for killing him?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: Prior or after?

ADV SANDI: I'm talking about were you not there when Sicelo was shot and killed?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: I was there.

ADV SANDI: In your evidence in chief you said an explanation was given to you at that place and subsequently you were given more details.  Now let us start about the one that was given to you when you were at the place where he was killed.  What explanation was given to you?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: Although I don't remember everything but what was said to me was the fact that we should not be surprised about the decision that has been taken because this person was going to be of danger to us.

ADV SANDI: Is that all that was said to you on that day?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: Although I don't remember quite much maybe other things will come as time goes on but nothing much was said at any rate.

ADV SANDI: Yes but you said subsequent to that occasion, that was the day when he was killed, a more detailed information was given.  What information was this?  What reasons were advanced for having Sicelo killed?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: After that that is exactly when I was told that a transmitter was found in his possession and that he also had a firearm but he never returned.  I don't quite remember other details but these are things I remember.

ADV SANDI: Are you personally aware of any information as to Sicelo, if he was an informer, which he could have conveyed to the police about yourself?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: As I said I had not known Sicelo for quite some time or some time, I was still learning or getting closer to him at the time.

ADV SANDI: Did you associate yourself with the killing of Sicelo?

PRECIOUS WISEMAN ZUNGU: You are referring to which period, do you mean after this incident?