Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-05-08

DR MAGWAZA: Thank you very much, Sir.  This is a very sad story, and it touches all of us.  I will ask a few questions just to clarify a few points here in your statement.  Sir, in this whole story were organisations fighting?  Do you agree they were the political parties, even if we don't mention their names, but everything that happened it was because of the fight between the two organisations?

WITNESS:  Yes, it's true.

DR MAGWAZA: I would like to ask you a question about the Mpanza family.  Where is the Mpanza family now?  What happened to them after their son was killed?  Did you see them ever after?

WITNESS:   It was in September when all these things happened.  It was on the 17th when this boy was killed.  Since that time I have never seen the Mpanza family, and I never ever had any contact with them.  They were living at the Mamba Store, very close to the Mamba Store.  I don't know whether to contact them so that they can appear here, but I only saw them during that time. One other thing that I would like you to clarify for us.  It seems as if you know the people who did this thing, because some of them you even named them, but at the end you said you never laid any charge because you didn't know who to accuse.   ---   I think I have to explain there.  Among the people who were chasing the deceased I didn't know anyone among them, but the ones I spoke to are the ones who grabbed the person who was running away.  And then we saw those people were chasing.  They were the ones who grabbed the person who was running away, so I can't say they were chasing him.  They were grabbing this person who was running away to ask, "Why are you running away?"  But I complained to them and said why were they grabbing this person who is running away.  If I can just put it clearly there that I cannot hide who are these people, because I didn't even follow them up because they were also grabbing at a person who was running away.  If it was a wild animal they wouldn't have eaten this animal, because they had not - they were chasing it, they had just got hold of it.

DR MAGWAZA: Do you know the people who attacked your house, and even the two who grabbed this person who was running away?  Do you know them?

WITNESS:   I am very happy to receive that question.  The people who burnt my house, I don't want to make fault.  If there was one among them whom I know I wouldn't hide his name.  Even the people who said I should be left alone because I defeated them, I cannot identify them because it was dark.  Everything happened at night.  The second point that I want to say, I was also scared.  I was confused in my mind.  That is why I want to clarify that.  The people who chased that child on the 17th, I couldn't say anything to them any more.  Even the ones who were at my place on the 19th, I can't say anything about them because it was dark, I couldn't see them.  Even the one who stabbed with his knife, he did that just in front of my eyes, but I couldn't recognise him.

DR MAGWAZA: We are very happy to have a person like you coming to the Commission, telling us the whole story.  We know that there is so much violence in this area, and we are happy to have people such as you.  We might be in a position to get a solution to the violence.  What I am going to ask from you, you lost your house, you lost the cars, and maybe some of the things that we do not know.  According to your vision what can the Commission do to help you?

WITNESS:   I have a request.  What I would request, if things are possible I would like the Commission to help me rebuild my house.  I know I couldn't lay charges against anybody because there was nobody to lay charges against.  My cars were burnt and my house was burnt.  I still have the documents.  I would only request the Commission to help me rebuild my house, or help me with the cars.

DR MAGWAZA: The Commission has only limited powers.  We will see where we can help.  Thank you very much.

MR NTSEBEZA: (Inaudible - end of Side B, Tape 9) ... let me put it this way.  The things you spoke about to the Commission people at that time when you gave your statement, you called things by their names and people by their names.  Is it not so?  The thing you call by its name, you said, "It was so-and-so of this - I was this thing, and at that time I was that."  Now, what I want to find out now, have you got a problem as we are here so that you can tell us the same story you told us before?  If you have got a problem you must tell us so that we don't ask you things you're not prepared to talk about them here in public?

WITNESS:   In the things that I had written down I know them.  I don't think I have dropped them.  I just like want to be polite on certain things and not say certain things.  I don't want to talk about this organisation or that organisation.

MR NTSEBEZA: I will ask you again.  Can I ask you about things that you said in your statement?  I don't want to ask you things that you're not free and feeling uneasy about talking about them.  For an example, I can say according to this statement you said at the time when this incident happened you were a member of Wesley - or church.  For an example can I say that, that you used to say you are a churchgoer of Wesley Church, or Presbyterian Church?  If you have got a problem with that tell us so that we don't ask you those things, because we do have this statement.  I also want to explain to these people who are the press people that we're talking about this or talking about that, or not talking about that.

WITNESS:   I see what you are saying.  You can say I was the leader.  I was the councillor of an Inkatha.  I was the chairperson of Inkatha.  That you can put it.  I am not hiding that.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you very much.

WITNESS:   I was the chairperson of Inkatha.  This child was running away.  He said, "Because I was running towards this man, this man knows me, because he would be at home because this is the man who could say I am the criminal," but he was running to me because I am not a criminal.  I am not making a mistake on that.  I am very happy, Sir, because I thought this whole thing was trailing off, we were not explaining it.   But what I can put here, I want to explain it clearly.  During that time there wasn't ANC that was fighting Inkatha, but it was UDF that was fighting Inkatha.  UDF has been closed down now.  Those people who were chasing this boy were the UDF people.  This boy, this child, was in the organisation, was in Inkatha organisation, and running towards me because I was the chairperson of Inkatha.

CHAIRPERSON: I am giving you the last warning.  If this happens again I am afraid I will have to ask the hall to be cleared.

WITNESS:   Okay, there are words that were said by Mthembu and Cele.  There were some words, very hot words they said, which I said, "If you say that Mthembu you've been telling me that I must depart from Inkatha, you should have told me that you've now joined UDF.  I would have also joined UDF if you had told me."  And they said to you, "You, as you are Inkatha now, and you are not in UDF, you will meet your death."  They also were Inkatha, but then they crossed the floor and went to UDF.  I used to lead them in Inkatha, but now they pulled off from Inkatha and went to UDF.  I said, "If you had told me that you're crossing the floor to the UDF I would have also crossed the floor.  I didn't go to that meeting because you didn't tell me."   That's why that I was explaining it, so that I just don't write these things down.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Sir.  I didn't want you to say things you didn't feel like saying.

WITNESS:   No, I am not scared.

CHAIRPERSON: /DR MGOJO

KHOZA MGOJO: Mr Miya, as you have said I don't hear anything from you about your family being attacked.  You talk about yourself surviving.  Where was your family when all this was happening to you?