Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Why I ask the question, Mr Chairman, is because in his introduction of this question, Mr Bizos once again referred to Dr Hartzenberg as the leader of the Conservative Party.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And it would depend on the date of that interview as to confirm the veracity or otherwise of that statement.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, let me just change my question and say the deputy-leader of the Conservative Party.  (Laughter).  If it makes so much difference to you.  Don't become involved with minutiae, Mr Derby-Lewis, please answer the gravamen of the question.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Bizos he is entitled to have an idea...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: ... of the date...

CHAIRPERSON: ...about when that statement was made.

GEORGE BIZOS: Shortly after the day.

CHAIRPERSON: It can be cleared up.

GEORGE BIZOS: We will give him the precise date.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

GEORGE BIZOS: After the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Because as I testified, Mr Chairman, only the leader of the Conservative Party is allowed to make policy statements without first going to an executive and getting their approval. So it is very relevant that date.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you saying that the deputy leader of the Conservative Party, if he is recorded as having said,
that the Conservative Party would have nothing to do with violence, and it was not its policy, that he is not an authorised person to speak on behalf of the party, whilst the leader is in hospital with a heart attack?  Is that what you are saying?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: What I am saying is, Mr Chairman, is that the constitution clearly states what the procedure is, and I have explained that procedure.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please answer the question.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And that is that the leader alone can make statements without first going back to an executive and clearing it with them.

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you saying that the deputy leader of the Conservative Party can not, has no authority to say what the policy of the party is in relation to violence whilst the leader is in hospital with a serious heart attack?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, as I said, I am not aware of the date. I don't know whether Dr Treurnicht in fact was in hospital at that time.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Can we wait until we have the date of the interview, then I can answer that question.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, well, it is readily available, it is just not with the Commission, it is not ...

JUDGE WILSON: As I understand what Mr Bizos is saying, is not that the deputy leader is creating new policy, but the deputy leader is merely stating what the policy of the party is.  He is not making any new rulings, he is not making any new decisions.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: That is your question isn't it Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And that is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: If you are going to move on to something else, perhaps we might consider that to be this an appropriate stage to take the adjournment.

GEORGE BIZOS: I don't know what time you intend taking the adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry ... The Committee will take an adjournment for 15 minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CLIVE DERBY-LEWIS: (Still under affirmation).

GEORGE BIZOS: (cont)
	Will you please turn to page R3, page 20 to page 21? This would be the sections, all of them. I am going to put a general question.  R3 is in - I just want to see the section, Mr Chairman.  The index is not in any particular section, Mr Chairman.  If you have a look at page 20, statements by Conservative Party contradicting. It is - oh, I beg your pardon. I am looking at my notes in cross-examination rather than R3 proper. I beg your pardon.  Give me R3, please, and the index.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, whilst Mr Bizos is going through his documents, may I request the Committee to release the gentlemen who were warned to be here today, that is the policemen, Mr Deetliefs, Pieters and Beegman, with the rider that we shall keep in touch with their lawyers whenever they are needed.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, are you in a position to give some indication as to when you may require these witnesses?

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, certainly not today. What I would suggest, with respect, that they be excused.  They have a legal representative at Brakpan.  The Commission counsel has his number, and that we will give them reasonable notice when they would be required by the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Has this been conveyed, Mr Mpshe, to the gentlemen concerned?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It has been conveyed, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let it be placed on record, that those who have been subpoenaed to attend these hearings and who are here this morning, that you will not be required this morning and that your attorney will inform you and give you adequate notice as to when you will be required.  Until then you are excused from further attendance.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  What section are we now going to deal with?  R3, section what?

GEORGE BIZOS: I am trying to save time and I do not want to put all the statements that have been placed before the Committee to the witness at this stage, because many of them are repetitions of a widely reported statement made in Parliament. So it would be repetitive for me to read them out. I merely want to  ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you don't have to read them out. You can just give the reference.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, Mr Chairman.  The further ones are to be found at R3, Section F, page 1 of The Citizen, in the - in Section ...

JUDGE WILSON: Haven't you asked him a great many questions about F1 already, Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: I want to leave them out for the time-being, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you may proceed.

GEORGE BIZOS: And we will come back because we are now in a position to really - to really get down to indisputable evidence in relation to CP policy.  Although the video-machine is not here, we have a transcript of what is said and we want to hand that in, and I am going to put the contents of that to the witness as to whether he agrees or disagrees with it and what the position was.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you rather not to do that after he has had a chance of seeing the video?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Please, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: There is no machinery now available to show it, but the video has been given to the other side, I understand. It will be made available to the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, they have seen the video?

MR PRINSLOO: No, Mr Chairman, we have not seen the video.

CHAIRPERSON: Pardon?

MR PRINSLOO: We have not seen the video, it is still in possession of the other side.

CHAIRPERSON: You were given it?

MR PRINSLOO: We were given it, we did not look at that, at a very brief time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: It was given and taken back again, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: I am instructed, Mr Chairman, that two copies were available, we took one and they took one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Anyway, let's not quibble about whether you were given and taken away, the fact of the matter is that you haven't had a chance of seeing it.

MR PRINSLOO: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Now if you wish to put questions on the statement on the transcript, they have got a copy of that, have they?

GEORGE BIZOS: I am going to give it to them now, Mr Chairman, it has just arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: Once again, Mr Derby-Lewis, you are going to be questioned on a transcript of a document.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Which I haven't seen, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand. If questions are put which you are able to answer, you will answer.  Where you can't answer, then you will say so.  The reason for that obviously being that you would like to see the video or the transcript itself.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Thank  you, Mr Chairman.