Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

J A MKHWANAZI: I was present in some instances.  There are some things that I can own up to and others, no.  I was just briefed by the committee about that.

MR HATTINGH: The question is, did you assist in the preparation of this Annexure?

J A MKHWANAZI: I did assist in instances where I was present and not in others where I was not present.

MR HATTINGH: Would it then be correct if we deduct from that that you are not aware of other incidents, relevant incidents pertaining to that period which are not reflected on this Annexure A as well as Annexure A1?

J A MKHWANAZI: I am not in the position of remembering all the incidents because I was not familiar with the people around here and I was also not recording things as they happened and I therefore cannot be sure.

MR HATTINGH: But you are not aware of any incidents, is that correct?

J A MKHWANAZI: I've already stated that I was not familiar with the people around here.  There are certain instances or incidents that I knew and others not.  I therefore am not in the position to say whether the information here is complete or not.

MR HATTINGH: Approximately when did you come to Ermelo and commenced your work here?

J A MKHWANAZI: I came in the '90', possibly in 1991.  I do not remember quite well.

MR HATTINGH: Irrespective of exactly when you actually came to Ermelo, what was the command structure for MK or the armed wing of the ANC at the time, with specific reference to your own position?

J A MKHWANAZI: When I came back to the country I came back here under the direct command of the Chief of Staff, Chris Hani to whom I reported directly.

MR HATTINGH: At this stage I'm not talking about the people or the MK commanders working under you.  What I would like to find out is about the structures above you.

J A MKHWANAZI: I was trying to answer exactly to that, that when I came back to South Africa I came back here flowing the instruction of Chris Hani under whose direct instructions I operated.

MR HATTINGH: And in the period that followed your stay in Ermelo, you only reported once to Chris Hani, is that correct?

J A MKHWANAZI: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Did you never request instructions from any other person in the MK structure with regard with what you had to do in the Ermelo area?

J A MKHWANAZI: We used the need to know principle in the military structures.  It was therefore not necessary for me to communicate this to anybody who was not necessarily connected to this, and if not, there would be a committee who would make the necessary decisions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, where are we getting with this cross-examination?  We are we going to with it?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, all I would like to find out is to what extent the Groote Schuur Accord during 1990 had an influence on the instructions that this witness or this applicant had in his furtherance of the aims and objectives of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's get stuck(?).

ADV SANDI: Ja, but Mr Hattingh, the Groote Schuur Accord as I understand it, was it not essentially about the suspension of offensive operations?  Wouldn't that be different to the kind of operations the applicants are talking about here, where they allege that these were essentially defensive operations?  Wouldn't the Groote Schuur Minute be different to the situation we're dealing with?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, perhaps I cannot answer it, perhaps I should just ask the witness to tell us whether he was aware of the Groote Schuur Accord.
	Mr Mkhwanazi, were you aware of the signing of an Accord, the Groote Schuur Accord in 1990 between the ANC and the then government?

J A MKHWANAZI: I had an idea but I didn't have the final details and the signing of that Accord did not bring violence to an end.

MR HATTINGH: You received your instruction from Chris Hani prior to that Groote Schuur Accord, did the fact that the Groote Schuur Accord dealt with the undertaking from the ANC to stop the armed struggle, did that not have an influence on your instructions of what you were to do in this area?

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Hattingh, let's get it into perspective, isn't Mr Sandi correct?  That Accord was an agreement as between the ANC in the perspective of its armed struggle as against the apartheid regime run by the Nationalists and its endeavours to attack the ANC structures and that's where this truce between the two, the government and the government in waiting occurred, is that not correct?
	What we're discussing here would possibly fall into the category of defensive and offensive operations not covered by the Accord.  I'm merely suggesting that.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, if I may just ask one question and ask the witness
	Whatever your knowledge was at the time of the Groote Schuur Accord, didn't you think that it was necessary at the time to go back to your MK command or the Chief of Staff of MK and to ask him whether his initial instructions of 1989 were to be amended in the light of the Accord?

J A MKHWANAZI: Mr Hattingh, I think I have already indicated that the Groote Schuur Accord did not bring violence to an end.  There was violence at a place where I was and therefore there was no need for me to go back to my commander.
	It was not easy for that matter as well, to go back to Chris Hani for a new instruction because I was operating underground.

MR HATTINGH: Did you know or do you today know the person in the ANC, Mr Ronnie Mamwepa?

J A MKHWANAZI: He is the ANC spokesperson, he is therefore not involved in the MK.

MR HATTINGH: At the time when your supplementary statement was made and the Brief Historical Background was annexed to it, the problem that I have is how do we explain paragraph 8 on page 10 where it states that you together with the other people met Chris Hani to obtain further instructions?  That was in July 1990.  And that you were only then advised to return to this area to set up self-defence units and to arm yourselves.

J A MKHWANAZI: I think I have indicated that I saw Chris only once and I alone saw him.  Maybe the person who typed this made a mistake.  I never went to Chris Hani in the company of Mndebele.

MR HATTINGH: But Mr Mkhwanazi, at the time when your statement was made you had already indicated that you had an opportunity to read this background or further the
"Brief Historical Background"
And you already indicated that you read the document once again in preparation for the hearing and you also indicated that everything is correct as far as concerns  you.

J A MKHWANAZI: I did state at the beginning that the Historical Background was prepared by myself and other members who have also applied for amnesty.  I am saying a mistake may as well have happened by including my name.
	The truth is that I never went to Chris Hani in the company of Mndebele.

MR HATTINGH: Can you then explain the contents of paragraph 11 on page 11?  Do you agree with the contents of paragraph 11?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, JJ Mabena and myself once discussed this.

MR HATTINGH: Now if you agree to this paragraph you say that
"The same advice was received by the committee from Jacob Israel Mabena"
Was Mabena part of the MK command structure?

J A MKHWANAZI: He was Secretary General of Cosatu and he was therefore not involved with the MK.

MR HATTINGH: Then if we turn to page 12, paragraph 13 where it is stated that
"During October 1990 there was a further public meeting where the community demanded the physical removal of the Black Cats?
Were you present at that meeting?

J A MKHWANAZI: I was not present.

MR HATTINGH: Did you take part in the peace initiatives mentioned in paragraph 14?

J A MKHWANAZI: I think I have already indicated that I was underground.  People who were in the Committee, Mndebele, Nkonyane and Zwane, these are the people that I encouraged to do that.

MR HATTINGH: Were you aware of these peace initiatives?