Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cradock — 1996-02-10

BONGANI FINCA: We welcome you Mrs Deborah Mzati.  Reverend Xundu will help you to take an oath and he will also lead you with questions on behalf of the Commission.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: (sworn states)

REV XUNDU: Thank you.  Let me now continue Mr Chairperson, to lead her with questions.  What is your clan name, Ma'am?

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: I am from the Tswagat clan.

REV XUNDU: Please tell us about son's story, Ayanda so that we can ask you a few questions.

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: My son Ayanda left home in 1985 in December in Jansenville.  He went to Port Elizabeth.  When I went to Port Elizabeth to fetch him, I was told that they went into exile, they crossed the country.  I didn't see him since then.  I last saw my son in 1985 at home in December.
 He left in 1986 at home.  In 1995, I used to come at home and I he was not there, it was the time of the struggle.  He used to return home at night.  Sometimes I would see him, sometimes I wouldn't see him.
 Until he left Jansenville and he went to Port Elizabeth.  I went to Port Elizabeth looking for him, but I couldn't find him, because I was told that he crossed the country.

REV XUNDU: Was it December 1985?
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DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: Yes, it was December 1985.  I think on the 2nd of December 1985.

REV XUNDU: Didn't you get any information from the comrades and his friends?

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: Some of them came back and they told me that he could be in Cuba, other said that he could be in Angola.

REV XUNDU: Did you make any investigations to try to find out where he is?

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: We started last year to try and find his whereabouts.

REV XUNDU: What does the record say about his disappearance?

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: In Port Elizabeth they told us they would inform us where he was.

REV XUNDU: How old was he at that time?

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: He left in 1996.

REV XUNDU: How old was he?

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: He was born in 1965.

REV XUNDU: Was he born in 1965?

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: Yes.

REV XUNDU: Meaning he was about 20 something?  Was he at school or was he working?  He used to have some piece jobs?

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: Yes, he used to have some piece jobs.

REV XUNDU: But he used to give you money at home?

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: Yes, he gave me money.

REV XUNDU: Did he have a girlfriend in the community or did he stay with a girl?

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: No, because he was still young, he was still staying with me at home.

REV XUNDU: Did he have any children?

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: I heard that he had a child in Port
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Elizabeth, but up until now, I didn't see the child.  I told these people that I wanted to see my son's child, but they didn't bring the child to me.

REV XUNDU: You said that this thing affected your health?

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: ; Yes, it affected me because I contracted heart disease.  I am sick, I receive an old age pension.
 We were suffering at that time, because people used to come and kick the doors and the windows, because when I came back from work, they would ask me where my son is.

REV XUNDU: What would you like the Commission to do for you Ma'am in your situation?

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: I want to know where my son is.  Even if he passed away, I want to know where his bones are.

REV XUNDU: Is that all you wanted to say Ma'am?

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: If I could know where my son is, I would be very glad.  I want to know if he died, or if he is still alive because I remember him, I miss him now.  He is always in my mind.

REV XUNDU: In your statement you said that you would like to receive old age pension.

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: I do get old age pension now.

REV XUNDU: Mr Chairman I think that is all I wanted to ask.  Maybe you have something more to add.

BONGANI FINCA: June Crichton?

JUNE CRICHTON: Mrs Mzati, I have two questions for you.  The first one, in the statement I have in front of me it says that one of the returned exiles that came from Cuba was a man by the name of Caswura Zutili, is that correct?

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: ; Yes, that is correct.

JUNE CRICHTON: And then further on in the statement, there
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are words here that I'd like to have you explain to me.  It says here shortly after talks about the UDF campaigning for recruitment of members and the fact that your son disappeared, it says in the statement - the State machinery came down hard and attempted to stamp out the UDF from existence.  Will you please just explain that a little bit more to me, what was the State machinery doing?

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: At that time it was very difficult.  We couldn't even go forward or proceed with any activities.

JUNE CRICHTON: Thank you Mrs Mzati, I hand you back to the Chairman.

BONGANI FINCA: Mr Sandi?

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mrs Mzati, these people who said they saw your child in Cuba, others said in Angola, can you help this Commission by identifying their names?

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: I know Caswura Zutili.

MR SANDI: Who else was there?

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: The other one is Pha Matshaka.

MR SANDI: Are they around Cradock?

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: No, they stay in Jansenville.

MR SANDI: When we go back a little bit, you said that you request assistance concerning your medical treatments.

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: Yes, sir.

MR SANDI: Do you have any other requests you made, maybe you forgot to tell us now?

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: I requested about my health because I do visit doctors in Port Elizabeth to get medical treatment.

MR SANDI: Didn't you ask any other request?

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: Except the bones of my child.   I want to know where he is.

MR SANDI: Thank you Ma'am, thank you Mr Chairman.
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BONGANI FINCA: Mrs Mzati, do you have any doubt in your mind or did you hear any rumours about what happened to your son, maybe you would like to share that with us.

DEBORAH NOMEISIE MZATI: No, I did not hear any rumours about my son, but one person said that he is still alive and the other one sent me his photograph, but I don't think he is still alive.
 I would believe that, if he can maybe write a letter to me and tell me where he is.

BONGANI FINCA: Mrs Deborah Mzati, we thank you very much.  We know that this thing is very painful to you as you are here in front of this Commission today.
 And we know that there are other parents who came forward to this Commission to tell us about their children who disappeared or who went into exile to fight for liberation.  
 Now that they see others coming back, they see other children coming back home, and others are working, others are in the Government, but theirs have not come back yet.
 And there is no one who can tell them where they are, whether they are still alive or not, or what happened to them.  Did they die in exile or what?  Those are the questions that parents have about their children.
 I can say that we thank you for bringing this issue to this Commission because now we are trying to talk with organisations such as ANC and other organisations, because we think that they have to give answers that could satisfy the parents of these children.  
 Of what happened to these children, whether they were injured or if they died in other countries.  If we can find their bones, the Commission will try to bring them to their parents so that they can be buried.  
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 If any other thing happened so that we can hold ceremonies to remember them, we thank you for coming here today.
 We would look at this issue as the Commission and we will try to bring an answer to you before our time ends as the Commission.  Thank you.