Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2011-01-21

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I am asking this question, because when you spoke about being assaulted on the third day, you put in the plural, you said they said assaulted us, they assaulted me and that is why I am putting this question.
	Who assaulted you to the extent that your teeth became loose?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: I do not know well, because the time when they were assaulting us on the third day I was sitting on a chair, Mamome was using that cord.  They would hit you in such a way that you become dizzy or drowsy and not realise what was happening.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Interpreter, sorry, I have to query you on this, because the witness kept, with regard to the third day, kept on saying they assaulted us and they, she was speaking the plural and you are, in your interpretation you are not saying they assaulted us, you just kept on saying Motsamai assaulted us and that, this is the query that I was having.  It could cause problems for the witness.

INTERPRETER: Thank you, Chairperson.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Just to summarise then, on the first day you were assaulted by Motsamai only.  Am I right?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And was that while the three sisters, you and your two sisters and Mr Motsamai were alone in a room?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: He, Motsamai, took us to that particular room, the three of us.

MR VISSER: Yes, the question is this, there were four people in the room, the three sisters and Mr Motsamai. Have I got it right?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: On the second day Mr Mamome assaulted you with a cord.  Is that correct?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: That was in a room?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And were there again four people present, you three sisters and Mr Mamome?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: On the third day you were assaulted, as we now understand, by Mr Motsamai and also by Mr Mamome?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: When you were assaulted by Mr Motsamai was that in a room?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Yes, they were assaulting us in the room.  That is a private room and they, he was alone there.

MR VISSER: Now, that is the question, the next question. Who were present at the time when Mr Motsamai assaulted you in a room on the third day?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: We were taken one by one on the third day when we were assaulted.  It was Motsamai and Mamome in that room and they said I should sit on a chair in front of a small table.

MR VISSER: So, there were three in the room.

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: We were three when they assaulted me.

MR VISSER: It was you and Mr Motsamai and Mr Mamome?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Yes, on the third day.

MR VISSER: Now, would you please explain to us whether anybody else assaulted you during the whole entire period other than what you have just tell us, told us.

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Those are the two people who assaulted us.

MR VISSER: Why I am asking you the question is that you made a remark about Colonel Erasmus.  Now, where does he slot into this picture of assault on you?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Erasmus assaulted us once when we were taking photos.  We only met him during that short period.

MR VISSER: Were, at that time, I am now just talking about the time when Erasmus assaulted, as you say, us.  Were you in a private room again?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: When they took photos of you they would take you into a private room, then they took us, the three sisters, and they showed us a camera and they said they are taking photos of us.

MR VISSER: You know, it is very confusing when you speak of they, could you try to identify the people that you are referring to.
	Did Mr Erasmus take you ... (intervention).

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: I am saying Erasmus took us into a room and he showed us a photo, he said he is going to take photos of us.

MR VISSER: Who were present in that room at the time when you were assaulted by Erasmus?  It was the three sisters?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: We were three.

MR VISSER: Okay, who were they.

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: It was Don, Mildred and myself and Erasmus.

MR VISSER: All right.  Now, will you explain precisely why you say Mr Erasmus assaulted you personally?  What did he do?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: We were not able to look direct at that photo.  Now, if he wanted you to look direct at the photo, he would hit you with the fist underneath the chin, so that your head faces upright.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, excuse me, but a point of clarity, the interpretation was we were made to look at the photo, is it not we were made to look at the camera?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: He wanted us to look at the camera.

MR VISSER: This conduct by Erasmus, did he hit you or did he push you up, as I understand you to explain when you spoke about the first time, did he push up your chin or did he hit you?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: He was not pushing me, he was hitting me, because I felt pain.

MR VISSER: All right.  Well, I put it to you that Colonel Erasmus, if it is the same person that you are referring to, will tell this Committee that he was not present at all during your interrogation, he had nothing to do with your, you, your group or any of you while you were at Fountains at any stage.

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: From where do I know him then?

MR VISSER: I am saying that he will say that he had nothing to do with you and he will deny that he ever assaulted you himself or saw that anyone else assaulted you, for that matter.

CHAIRPERSON: You put further, did you not, you put that he was not present at Fountain?

MR VISSER: Well, he was not, perhaps I should more accurately place upon record the following question, Mr Chairman.  Mr Erasmus' evidence will be that he had no, nothing to do with the group of you who were arrested while you were at Fountains and, in fact, that he was not present during any interrogation or anything that concerned you at Fountains.  I think that makes it clear, Mr Chairman.

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: I saw him present.

MR VISSER: And if I have it, my notes are correct, your sister, who has just given evidence, Mildred, not so, you heard your evidence?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Yes, I heard.

MR VISSER: Did you hear her say that she was assaulted by Erasmus?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: This happened in 1986, she might have forgotten, you did not ask her.

MR VISSER: Were you made to do frog-jumps by anybody at any stage?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Yes, we did frog-jumps in Violent Street.

MR VISSER: Did you consider that to be an assault or a method of torture?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: I do not know how to classify it.

MR VISSER: Was it not important to you, you did not feel any discomfort because of that?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: I was supposed to do frog-jumps, there was nothing else to do.

MR VISSER: You did not feel any discomfort because of that?  Was it a game?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Even if it made me uncomfortable what would I have done.  I was supposed to make those frog jumps, because they were forced, whether you liked it or not and if you refused to make those frog-jumps, Motsamai would come and kick you at the back.

MR VISSER: Where did this happen?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: At Fountain in Violent Street.

MR VISSER: Room?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: At the passage, there is a long passage called Violent Street.  Frog-jumps were done in that ... (end of tape 2A)

MR VISSER: ... tell them about this?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: About frog-jumps?  I said this happened in 1986.  Some of the things she would not keep in your memory, but I still remember them.