Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

JAN LOURENS: No, it changed.  What happened there is that over a period of time the biological and chemical programmes were separated in full, and Roodeplaat functioned on its own, acquired it's funds directly from the South African Medical Services and Delta G functioned on it's own.  Delta G happened to have developed a holding company, they called the holding company Medchem, and within this group there was a number of other companies there, for example Lifestyle Management was in this group, there was a company called Kowolsky International, there was a company called Medchem Pharmaceuticals, so there was a - it was a small group of companies.

MR VALLY: Just SRD, to your knowledge, how much money was put into it between the period that you were there?

JAN LOURENS: Mr Vally, off the cuff, I would say the company costs roughly two, two and a half, three million rand per year to run.  Protechnic was a different ball-game.  Protechnic when we started operated the Armscor then funded projects.  We started of with total projects of about four, four and a half million per annum and it ended up in the vicinity, as far as I can recall, about eighteen, twenty million, but I must please tell you, sir, I'm not accurate on these figures.

MR VALLY: In your conversations and dealings Dr James Davies, were any other delivery mechanisms other that the screwdrivers and walking sticks, syringe type mechanisms, were any other mechanisms discussed regarding delivery of poisons?

JAN LOURENS: Not discussed.  One of these typical sort of corridor discussions, mention was made by James of poison being introduced into cans and alcohol or bottles, I shouldn't say alcohol, because I'm not sure what it was, whether it was a alcohol bottle, and as far as I recall that particular discussion it was James that was in actual fact responsible for it for the transfer of the chemical substances into the cold drink cans and/or bottles that was discussed.

MR VALLY: And these were sealed cans or sealed bottles?

JAN LOURENS: I assume so, Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: There's another issue that I want to raise with you regarding certain requests you had for the production of weapons by a foreign purchaser.  Can you talk to us about that, tell us what it was all about and how you were introduced tot he person?

JAN LOURENS: I had - I interfaced on three occasions with weapons systems or potential weapons systems for foreign entities, individuals.  The first case it was my partner at the time in Protechnic, Charles van Remoortrere had a potential customer.  I know him as Mr Mombar and he wanted a binary weapon developed.  Binary weapon is a weapon that you'd have two chemicals that would be separated in some sort of a, let's call it ammunition for lack of a better term, word, and once you fire this, the two chemicals would mix by whatever mechanism and there's a lot of mechanisms that can be utilised herewith, and as the shell explodes it delivers the toxic substance.  So we worked on this concept in actually developing the shell and the two chemicals, it's a substance called VX, and that was it.

MR VALLY: What is VX?

JAN LOURENS: VX is a nerve agent.  It's a binary nerve agent.  The unit was given to Charles, I left, and as far as I know the programme never went anywhere.  It was developed mentally, it wasn't proven ability, it wasn't proven skills, it was really just, we were looking at the concept, and we never really got to the point of having a workable solution.

MR VALLY: This binary weapon, did you supply the VX as well?

MR VALLY: We manufactured the chemicals at Protechnic.

MR VALLY: And this person called Mr Mombar, do you know who he represented?

JAN LOURENS: Absolutely no, I have no idea, I never met the man, I never made contact, my partner made contact with him.

MR VALLY: Do you have any - can you speculate in view of your informal discussions with your partner possibly?

JAN LOURENS: I know he was met in Europe, but I - that would be impossible for me to speculate in terms of where - we never discussed it to the extent that I would be able to make a deduction or speculation in terms of his nationality.

MR VALLY: Did you ever get consent or report this to anyone within South African ...(intervention)

JAN LOURENS: No, absolutely not.

MR VALLY: Military structure?

JAN LOURENS: No, no, I discussed it with nobody.  It was an internal project.  I didn't discuss it with any of my military colleagues.

MR VALLY: So there was a binary prototype with VX which was in fact sold to some foreign person?

JAN LOURENS: No it wasn't - as far as I know it was never actually sold.  You know, I at that stage left the organisation and as fare as I know it was never - due to the fact that it was developmental technology it wasn't proven technology, it was never sold.

MR VALLY: Was it delivered?

JAN LOURENS: Not that I know of.  As far as I know, no.

MR VALLY: Where you head-hunted by anybody after you left Protechnic?

JAN LOURENS: What happened is, as I left I was approached by a man by the name of Ters Ellers.  Ters Ellers requested a meeting with me at his offices.  I went to his offices in Sandton.  I met with a man by the name of Shloogie.  We discussed a number of issues, and it was quite evident that he was interested in acquiring chemical and biological technology.  I met with him on a number of occasions, trying to define exactly what he wanted.  Finally it was clear that the man basically wanted - he was Syrian, and he was quite open about it, he said to me he was from Syria and he wanted technology for Syria.  He went as far as enquiring whether having left the company if I thought it was possible for him to purchase Protechnic, which of course it wasn't.  He wanted to know if I could introduce him to key scientists, because I'm not a chemist, you know it was difficult for me, synthesis for example I could make absolutely no contribution to his requirements, whether there was any interest and could I assist him in finding the necessary people.  I introduced him to one individual, I introduced him to Dr Andre Immelman, and they had certain discussions, and I wasn't party to those discussions.  Once I had introduced Dr Immelman, that was it.  As far as I know Dr Immelman did travel to Syria.  On the chemical side I introduced him to nobody, I just backed off and left him.  That was it.

MR VALLY: I'm just curious about one thing, you have a number of foreign people involved with the project, for example Mr van Remoortrere, he's Belgian, why were they allowed to have part ownership of companies which had the ability, even though in small quantities, but to manufacture chemical agents, was there any kind of procedure by which they were vetoed?

JAN LOURENS: It was abnormal in terms of the security system at the time, it was totally abnormal, you know, in that particular area if you were not white, Afrikaans, male, you could not have been vetoed, or highly unlikely.  Charles's situation was different in the sense that Charles allowed us access into Europe and access into particular technologies in Europe, and I, you know, their security system was quite a rigid system at the time, so I assumed that Charles was vetoed, nevertheless, the fact that Charles eventually became the owner of Protechnic, even by today's standard would be abnormal, it would be strange, but it happened and it was done with the support of the project office at the time.

MR VALLY: Did Mr Bart Hetima do anything more than just pack substances into aerosols?