Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-02

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairperson,  I'm going to call the second applicant, Zukile Mbambo to take the stand.

CHAIRPERSON: What language does he speak?

MS COLLETT: Xhosa.

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: (sworn states)

MS COLLETT: Mr Mbambo, what is your age presently?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I am reaching 39 years.

INTERPRETER: In November he'll be 30.

MS COLLETT: And were you a member of APLA?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: When did you become a member of APLA?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: In 1991.

MS COLLETT: And where were you recruited from?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: In Cape Town.

MS COLLETT: And did you receive training?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Where did you receive that training?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: At Butterworth.

MS COLLETT: Anywhere else?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: No.

MS COLLETT: Now, when did you first go to the Butterworth base?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I first started when - I got to the base at Butterworth in 1994.

MS COLLETT: Where were you prior to that?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I was called from my home here in Mdantsane.

MS COLLETT: Had you been at any other base before or any APLA stonghold before going to the Butterworth base in 1994?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: Yes.

MS COLLETT: Where had you been?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: At Bizana.

MS COLLETT: Did you receive training at Bizana as well?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Who called you to come to the base in Butterworth in 1994?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: It is Jimmy Jones.

MS COLLETT: Now you've heard your co-applicant testify under oath about certain missions in which you and he were involved?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I heard him.

MS COLLETT: The first one that he testified about was the attack on a bus near Fort Knox.

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I remember.

MS COLLETT: And he mentioned that is was your house that they stayed at when they launched that attack.

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Is it correct that you have made an amnesty application with regard to that Fort Knox incident?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: The basis for that amnesty application being that you housed or your house was used as the accommodation during that attack, is that correct?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Were you actually involved in the actual attack?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: No, I did not participate except that they stayed at my house, those who undertook the attack.

MS COLLETT: When was it in relation to that incident that you went to the Butterworth base?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: It was after we had attacked the Bahai Church at two.

MS COLLETT: Were you a party of the - were you a member of the party that attacked the Bahai Church?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: How did you get information or how were you instructed to be involved in this?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: Because I was called or they were told to return with me and had been sent a driver to drive for them because they were required to go to that church.  It was said we must all go because they could not move from the church and come and pick me up, we had to all go together and then move together to, via that other way.

MS COLLETT: So who actually gave you your instructions to become involved in this Bahai Faith attack?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: It is Africa, the late TNT who was the commander.  It was Africa TNT who was, who is the late TNT who was our unit commander.

MS COLLETT: Now, you've heared the sequence of events that your co-applicant has sketched about the Bahai Faith attack, is there anything that you would like to add to what he has said?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: About the Bahai attack?  No, there is nothing to add there.

MS COLLETT: Do you confirm that everything that he said is the truth regarding the attack on the Bahai?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Do you you know what the aim of the mission was?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: Yes, I know.

MS COLLETT: What was it?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: The aim of that mission was to kill all those white people in that church and to get whatever valuables they could get, money, guns and a car, anything that could be taken from them.

MS COLLETT: Taken from them for what purpose?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: They should be taken and then be property of APLA.

MS COLLETT: And did any of you know how many white people there were going to be in the church?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I would not lie, even at the time Jimmy Jones gave the order I was not there.

MS COLLETT: TNT didn't tell you how many people were going to be in that church?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I would be accusing him unfairly.

MS COLLETT: So the intention was to go there and kill the white people?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Did that happen?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: It happened.

MS COLLETT: And after that attack, did you then go back to Butterworth?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: After the attack we moved straight to Butterworth.

MS COLLETT: Now you've heard your co-applicant say that he did not know whether you were a member of APLA or not, what do you say to that?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: It's the truth that he did not know me.

MS COLLETT: But did Jimmy Jones know that you were a member of APLA?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Did you know Jimmy Jones before this occasion?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: Yes, I knew him.

MS COLLETT: How did you come to know him?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I know him from a long time back.  He used to take soldiers to my place who came to undertake operations beside.

MS COLLETT: Now after you'd returned to Butterworth instructions were then given that you return to participate in three further attacks, at the Nahoon Dam turnoff, at Da Gama and at the Highgate Hotel, is that correct?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Who gave those instrutions?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: Jimmy Jones.

MS COLLETT: Were you present?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: I was present.

MS COLLETT: What was the purpose of the operation?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: The aims of the operations, firstly at Da Gama it was to hit that bus that carried the white employees going there too from East London, to hit that other bus that moves from King William's Town, a school bus carrying white kids from King William's Town to school here in East London, to hit the Station Bar there at the station at East London in town and the Highgate Hotel.

MS COLLETT: Now you had been a member of APLA for a period of time at this stage, did those attacks appear to be in line with APLA policy?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: As to whether the orders were in line with the policy is not the concern of the soldier given the instructions.  As a soldier there is democracy but it is so limited, there are things you may not query, you simply have to do them even if you think they are wrong.  If they have given you an instruction to do you must do so.  Your duty is to execute orders, not to query them.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you answer the question now.  The question was, were they in accordance with APLA policy?  	That is so isn't it, that is the question you put?
Were these attacks in accordance with APLA policy?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: Yes, those attacks were in line with APLA policy.  As you can see we were instructed to go and commit or to undertake those attacks.

MS COLLETT: So you proceeded to the greater East London area to carry out these attacks, is that correct?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: Were you provided with firearms?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: That is so.

MS COLLETT: By whom?

ZUKILE AUGUSTINE MBAMBO: Jimmy Jones.

MS COLLETT: And which was the first attack that you undertook?