Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-08

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairman, just before General Joubert starts with his testimony, he wishes to give his testimony in Afrikaans.   I think I just want to, for record purposes just repeat my request that I made to yourselves in chambers, mainly that you are well aware that General Joubert has applied for amnesty and an application has been circulated and in front of you.  On his behalf I am instructed to inform you that you are at liberty to take note of the full contents of his amnesty application ...[inaudible] want to regard it as part of his testimony today.
 You will note from the amnesty application - it comprises out of two section, a general section as well as a section regarding four incidents.  His request today is that he is prepared and willing to testify and answer any questions that the Commission may deem necessary on the general side of his amnesty application but regarding the four incidents that is noted in there, he did not intend to testify on it and he will request the Commission to make a ruling that cross-examination will not be allowed on those incidents.
 The reason why I request the Commission to make such a ruling is that - as you are well aware, he has to present his amnesty application at a later stage before a different forum and cross-examination at this stage regarding those incidents might detrimentally effect the finalisation of that application.
 Furthermore, as far as his personal background is concerned, he has himself prepared a very short summary of how he perceived his role as - and I want I want to put it on record at this stage, he acted as a senior through his career mainly in an operation capacity as a General in charge of a unit that were deployed operationally.  He'd like in his own words, to give an indication what was his motivations for that and I would ask you the indulgence to allow him to give that to you and thereafter, he will be more than pleased to answer any questions.
 Finally, I'd just like to point out that his application not to be cross-examined no the incidents must be seen as an attempt to try and hide anything, it's an attempt to protect his interests and rights as far as his own application is concerned.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Firstly, I would welcome General Joubert's own short statement before we proceed with questions.  Secondly, I think on the matter of cross-examination we should leave that until a specific situation arises and we can consider it.  I'd like not anticipate it in the hope that it doesn't happen, if it does happen then of course we would have to listen very carefully to that.
 Thirdly, we have already indicated to you that the force of our questions today will be of a general nature, bearing in mind that General Joubert has applied for amnesty and obviously the specific incidents will be dealt with in detail at that time.  With that, let me say again to General Joubert, you are welcome and we will listen to your opening statement with care and then I'll ask Mr Glen Goosen to proceed with necessary or relevant questions, thank you.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I beg an indulgence only to attempt to be of some assistance to you.  My name is Visser, I appear instructed by Wagner Muller and du Plessis for General Johan van der Merwe, sorry, General Johan Coetzee.  He's an implicated person in the evidence of General Joep Joubert and whereas we submit that we would have under normal circumstances in such a situation, the right of cross-examination.
 We believe this is not the forum with which to clarify all those issues through lengthily cross-examination and it's our intention that if General Joubert is going to stay within the confines of the statement or the allegations which are made in his amnesty application, we do not intend to cross-examine him but simply to place on record at the appropriate time, what our response to that would be.  It might be of assistance and that's why I interrupted the proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much indeed, that is very helpful, thank you.  Right, can we now proceed General Joubert?

MR GOOSEN: Mr Chairperson, could I just indicate that in the questioning of General Joubert, I certainly intend dealing with the substance of the amnesty application.  As I indicated to Mr le Roux earlier, that I don't intend asking about the facts relating to the specific matters for which amnesty is sought.  I believe that is a matter for the Amnesty Committee but I wouldn't want to interpret Mr Visser's remarks as meaning that we can merely deal with the statement as it is contained in it's general form in amnesty application.   I will be looking for amplification and clarification of those general statements made in that amnesty application.

CHAIRPERSON: That is noted and if anyone does want to raise a question, they are free to do so, thank you.   General Joubert?

GEN JOUBERT: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Before I start I want to tell the Commission that I agree with everything that General Viljoen has said.  Everything that he has said I associate myself with.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I had to interrupt you, just to clarify - General Joubert do you have a copy of the statement you're now going to read or not?

GEN JOUBERT: We've got a copy but unfortunately it's not press ready at the moment but we will be able to hand to you before the end of these proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, you may proceed.