Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-27

MR TSHOLANKU: Mr Mbatha, at your level of this particular as Regional Commander of MK, did you have a mandate or did you have clear instructions to engage yourself in such an act?

LAURENS MBATHA: That is one point that I would like to outline.  You see, as a Regional Commander or a Commander, when you are placed in a situation, one of the primary tasks is that you should be able to read the situation and after you have read the situation you should be able to take initiatives within those parameters as the situation was building up and, unfortunately, mine was in the Northern Cape, which was completely different to the rest of the other provinces, of which situations were more conducive and more advanced at their level, which was completely different to mine and mine, it was the starting point where the building up point, the building up position that was become very versible at that time, that the grenades became the one that one is utilised.

MR TSHOLANKU: Yes, ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, could you just repeat the last part of your sentence, it became?  It was the starting point and then you added something after starting point.  I could not catch it.

LAURENS MBATHA: I, actually, said I ended up utilising the grenade for the blast.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I still did not hear what you have just said.  Would you mind repeating it again?

LAURENS MBATHA: What I actually said is the situation in, that is, my area, that is my tactical area of responsibility, should refer it, that is the Northern Cape, I, actually, used a grenade, that is the word that I have used, utilising, for the incident that took place at the Trust Bank building.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not sure we understand.  We do not quite understand the point you are making.

LAURENS MBATHA: I am, actually, responding to the question that has been raised, that, within my capacity, did I act on instructions from above and then I defined that one of my responsibilities, as a Commander, is basically to take initiatives on the ground when you are placed in that situation and when you are faced with a situation you conduct an appreciation.  An appreciation is nothing else, but you read the situation, how it envelopes and it develops out of yourselves and then from there it start with your own preparations, because at the end of the day you are the one who is supposed to be handling it.  The situation was becoming a very uncertain one at that stage and on my side, with the preparation of those structures, that I have just indicated, (...indistinct) over the entire province.  In Kimberley around, because, as I have indicated, this one was just the second one and it happened, it is where the mistake did occur.  I am not sure will I have to go back to ... (intervention).

SISI KHAMPEPE: We are trying to understand your response to the question from your counsel on whether you had instructions from above or not.  Do we understand you properly if we say what you are saying to us is that you did not have any instructions from above, but you had powers as the Regional Commander of the Northern Cape of MK to read the situation and to take the necessary action which you deemed appropriate from time to time?

LAURENS MBATHA: That is, actually, correct, an initiative.

MR TSHOLANKU: Thank you.  Mr Mbatha, the objective of this particular incident was it attained and can you explain to the Committee as to what was the objective of this hand grenade throwing incident?

LAURENS MBATHA: It is so unfortunate that one should say today, the objective is linked to the aim, as I have explained, to explode within the building so as to send a signal through, but, unfortunately, because of the mistake that did occur, I have referred to a security officer.  I do not have his name, I do not have his name in my possession right now, but during the deliberations of the case itself, it did appear, because he was struck by that grenade, because he was sent, standing right in the centre of the door.  It is where, actually, the grenade fell off, because the deceased was standing in a corner and it exploded.  So, at that stage, one should say the objective was not attained, but it ended up, it ended up in a very sad situation where comrades, actually, ended up being victims of the whole situation.

ADV DE JAGER: Were there still people in the building when you, they, you threw the grenade?

LAURENS MBATHA: At that stage I cannot exactly confirm, because it was during the time when the movement, people should, will, were, actually, preparing to move away and inside the building, if I recall very well, some of the people, they were not there, but the security guy is within the building was on his way out when the grenade was thrown from behind.

ADV DE JAGER: But the people receiving the memorandum they were still standing in the building?

LAURENS MBATHA: No, at that time the last memorandum, I think, was also handed over and they were preparing to move.

ADV DE JAGER: So, were there no people in the building then?

LAURENS MBATHA: At that stage there were no people in the building.

ADV DE JAGER: An empty building?

LAURENS MBATHA: Within the vicinity, not the building in terms of people upstairs, but the area that I am referring to right as you move from the sliding door, nobody was standing there.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question was, politically, what did you expect to benefit, if at all, by throwing the hand grenade?

LAURENS MBATHA: One should, actually, say, at that stage, the way the situation was unfolding, at that time, it became very difficult as one, particularly in my capacity, to witness a situation that is building up the way that it was building up in the province ... (intervention).

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mbatha, I am going to intervene, because I think you will end up again not responding to the question.  We would appreciate if you could try and limit your response to the question as posed to you.  I think what we want to know is what were you hoping to achieve by launching the hand grenade?

LAURENS MBATHA: Firstly, the first aim that one was intending to achieve was to show that the political installation within the area was assuming also different things.  It was no more only from the other side where one only could say you could get all this funny reactions that they brutal in nature.  That was the first one and the second one was to warn, also the Bop Government, because at that stage it was clear that in its intensification with its brutality, within Bophuthatswana, was starting to intensify.  So, the aim was to signal that at that stage they must know that there is a different installation and an approach towards them.

MR TSHOLANKU: In your elucidation of the incidents, incident that took place on the 25th of May 93 you kept referring to the office.  Could you clarify which office were you making reference to?  You kept referring to an office that you went to, to fetch the grenade. I do not think we really understood which office were you talking about at that point in time.

LAURENS MBATHA: It was exactly my office that is within the ANC office.  It is where, actually, I kept it.  After, I should indicate also, that I took the grenade the very same morning from Sipho and took it over to my office.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Who is Sipho, Mr Mbatha?

LAURENS MBATHA: Sipho happens to be the guy who was, actually, charged for this act that he never knew of.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What is his surname?

LAURENS MBATHA: That is Sipho Mbakwe.

MR TSHOLANKU: Now that you have mentioned Sipho Mbakwe and also have indicated that he did not, he knew nothing about the incident, there is another gentleman, Kosinatie is his name, Engochla, did he have knowledge of this incident, was he involved in any way in this incident?

LAURENS MBATHA: In as far as that I can recall very well, Engochla was not even around Kimberley by then.  If my memory serves me well.