Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

ADV MEMANI: But Mr Bokaba, there was security legislation in terms of which people were detained without trial, which was carried out by the security branch.

HENDRIK BOKABA: You must understand one thing, I started working at the security branch on the 1st of May 1986.  I didn't have a rank then, the highest rank which I had - I was just a mere constable.  If you are going to ask me about a Security Act and then how people were detained and on which Act they were detained, then I'm not going to answer your questions in that regard.

ADV MEMANI: But you know, that legislation was a matter of public knowledge. Since around 1976, it had become common knowledge that there was security legislation in terms of which people could be detained without trial and you were a constable, you should know
about that.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I explained to you that during the state of emergency, we detained people.

ADV MEMANI: Now, the point of my question is that the incident such as the burning down of political activist Louisa Mbongo and Nono Gint's house, would have come to the attention of security branch?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't know those houses, I don't know them.

ADV MEMANI: And on your version, you and Selahla were the people primarily responsible for Mamelodi?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I was working in Mamelodi as I explained and together with Dannyboy Selahla and others whom I've explained but the house you speak of them, I don't know them and the people you mentioned like Nono Gint, I don't know them.

ADV MEMANI: And you do not have the slightest idea about these houses?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't know them.  Whatever happened to those houses, I don't know.

ADV MEMANI: Is it possible that these things came to your attention but you've forgotten about them?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't know them.  I start to know them when you spoke of them.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Do you know of any houses that - in Mamelodi which were bombed by members of the security branch?

HENDRIK BOKABA: No English translation.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Do you know of any houses in Mamelodi which were bombed by members of the security branch?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I know the house - the church which belonged to Legot which is called Legotlo.  I knew that by hearing from Captain Loots - those are the people who took part in the bombing of that church and Scheepers Marudi's house.   I knew later when they were talking, that they were burnt or bombed by the members of the security branch.  I think those are the only houses I know.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Whose house - Scheepers Marudi's house?

ADV MEMANI: Did you mention Marudi's house?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Yes, that's Scheepers Marudi's house.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]  Scheepers Marudi?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did they tell you it had been bombed by the security branch?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Sorry?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did they tell you it had been bombed by the security branch?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Did they tell me?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes.

HENDRIK BOKABA: Yes, they did tell me.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: When did they tell you that?

HENDRIK BOKABA: I heard later from Captain Hechter.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: When was that?

HENDRIK BOKABA: That was after a long time.

ADV MEMANI: Why do you say in your affidavit that
"as far as my knowledge goes, no houses as far as my knowledge goes, were bombed by members of the security branch"

HENDRIK BOKABA: I was talking about myself.

ADV MEMANI: Page, sorry - page 45, para 3.4
"I categorically deny 3.4 that any of the houses where I was supposedly involved as mentioned in his application, were ever bombed by myself or as far as my knowledge goes, by members of the security branch, Northern Transvaal"
You are referring to ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Where I was personally involved.

ADV MEMANI: You are referring only to the two houses in question.

HENDRIK BOKABA: No.

ADV MEMANI: The houses mentioned by the applicant.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I explained that I heard later about those houses.  I
think it is after I've already submitted that affidavit.

MR DU PLESSIS: But Mr Chairman, in his ...[intervention]

ADV MEMANI: I understand the context different, I understand you.  I think I must take back my question, I misunderstood the paragraph.

HENDRIK BOKABA: Thank you Sir.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I please just for purposes of the reference to Scheepers Marudi's house just - I know we don't have the applications here but refer you to the applications of Hechter and van Vuuren specifically.  You would have noted that it wasn't dealt with in their evidence but there was a general application made for amnesty for bombing of various - petrol-bombing of various houses - or bombing of various houses of which the details the applicants didn't know about.  I'm just referring for purposes of the reference to this bombing, to those applications.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well Hechter specifically - I think he mentioned specific - he didn't know the addresses but with regard two houses, he actually gave the details as to who he was with.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, he gave details of those he could remember but you will see in the applications, there was a general schedule referring to petrol-bombing of other house of which they couldn't remember the details.  I'm just making that point Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: Now, you have applied for amnesty haven't you?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV MEMANI: In respect of what ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: That's correct, I think that's why we're here.  ...[inaudible]

ADV MEMANI: And for what acts have you applied for amnesty?

HENDRIK BOKABA: That is assault.

ADV MEMANI: Assault on who?

HENDRIK BOKABA: The same person called Scheepers Marudi.

ADV MEMANI: Yes?

HENDRIK BOKABA: And then also for murder where I was present when that murder happened.  I don't remember the identity or the names of those people but the person I remember among those people, the other one is Patrick Maake - M-a-a-k-e, the other person is Sefola - S-e-f-o-l-a.   I don't remember the third one.  Then I don't remember the other person again - the other victim.  I've applied amnesty for three cases.

ADV MEMANI: Now, where did these incidents take place?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Let me say it this way, the assault happened after the person was arrested in Mamelodi, then it happened at Compal Building.  And then the murder, the one person was arrested in Mamelodi.  I think it's Maake or Sefola or - that is Makupi.  I don't remember well but the other one was arrested in Witbank...

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, before we go into all the detail of
where Makupi and Maake and Sefola were arrested and where they were taken, I have the amnesty application of Captain Bokaba in front of me.  You have heard evidence about this incident.  The evidence in his application accords with the evidence you have heard.  The place was Hammanskraal, close to Pienaars Rivier ...[intervention]

HENDRIK BOKABA: That's correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: You would remember that.  And then ...[intervention]

ADV MEMANI: Just one second Sir, I think these questions are asked for my benefit as well and when he - you know, if he wants to clarify these matters, he must make me follow what he is saying.  I don't know where Hammanskraal comes in for instance.