Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-21

MR PRIOR: Do you know if Mr Fransisco was involved in any incident on that road while going to Sterkspruit to the bakery?  If you don't know about that then say so.

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, I also heard about that.

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Fransisco will be coming to the Committee to tell us about that.
Now Mrs Brummer, you told me yesterday that you knew Mrs Brummer?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, I knew Mrs Brummer.  I used to work next-door to her.

MR PRIOR: And did any member of your family work at the same shop as Mrs Brummer?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, my sister and my auntie used to work together with Mrs Brummer.

MR PRIOR: Now, Mrs Brummer's widower, Mr Brummer, has indicated that he does not wish to attend these proceedings.  He indicated in a letter that he is still suffering.  Are you able to just tell us a little bit about Mrs Brummer?  How was she regarded by the community at Sterkspruit?  And I am referring to the black community.

MS A TSEMANE: We received Mrs Brummer as one of our, as one of us.  The only difference was her skin colour.  For example she could speak Xhosa, she would only speak English when speaking to her husband and those who worked for her.  Every time he went to the shop he would be accompanied by people, mostly people like us.  He was always with us because by then we had forgotten that he was a white person because of his behaviour amongst us.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) Mrs Brummer.

INTERPRETER: The Speaker's microphone is not on.  I can't interpret.

MS A TSEMANE: If you want me to tell you about both of them, all I can say is that they were the same.

MR PRIOR: In ...(inaudible) interpretation said "he" and not "she".  We thought you were, we weren't sure if you were talking about Mrs Brummer or Mr Brummer when you were saying "he was always with us" and that sort of thing, so I'm just not clear.  Can you clarify that?  Are you referring to Mrs Brummer or Mr Brummer?

MS A TSEMANE: I was talking about Mrs Brummer because I thought I was being asked about her.

MR PRIOR: And Mr Schroeder, did you know him?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, I knew him.  I knew him from Fourways when I was working next-door.

MR PRIOR: The photographs, can you identify Mr Brummer on these photographs?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, I can.

MR PRIOR: The photograph I wish to tender as EXHIBIT, as D, sorry, yes, D and I mark it D(1).
   He's standing in a grey suite, is that correct?  At a wedding.

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, that is correct.  It is him.

MR PRIOR: On D2 he's standing on the right hand side of the photograph next to the lady with the baby.  He's in a white T-shirt with, it looks like short pants.

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, it is him.

MR PRIOR: Did he also work with Mrs Brummer?

MS A TSEMANE: It is so.

MR PRIOR: And how did, what was his employment?  What was his, did he also work for Fairways, or Score, sorry, Score Furnishers?

MS A TSEMANE: He was working at Score.  He came after it came to the light that Mrs Brummer was about to be transferred when he arrived.

MR PRIOR: Mr Schroeder was a Coloured man, is that correct?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: We heard evidence regarding the applicants and where they stayed in Jozanna's Hoek.  Did you know that area?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, I know the place.

MR PRIOR: Directions or description of how, or directions how to get, an explanation of how to get to the house was given by both applicants.  Are you able to identify that house from that, that evidence that you heard?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, I can.

MR PRIOR: Do you know the owner of that house?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, I know the owner.

MR PRIOR: You also in your questioning of the applicants, well particularly, no, not, I rephrase that, Mr Makoala.  It seems, you seem to suggest in those questions that the attacks carried out before the 19th of November where Mr Fransisco and Mr van Rooyen were involved and then, Mr Brummer, Mrs Brummer, Mr Schroeder and your father, Mr Tsemane, was part of a, if I can put it, a conspiracy of sorts to effectively get rid of the white people working in Sterkspruit.  In other words, only those people working in Sterkspruit were targeted.  That seems to, what I understand from your question.  Am I right in that understanding?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, you are right.

MR PRIOR: Is there any information that you have for this Committee regarding those questions that you actually put to the applicant this morning, or the reasons why you put that to the applicant?  Are you able to give us some indication why you put those questions?  Whether there's any information out there that is available to the Committee?

MS A TSEMANE: As I've said earlier, I was born here and I grew up here and I attended school in Sterkspruit, and I'm also working there.  I know people of Sterkspruit very much.  I started to work in a store in 1977.  I know all the business people in Sterkspruit.  What made me to ask him the question I was asking, is because I used to hear about everything that happened in town because I was most of the times in town, as I worked there.  That is why I asked those questions.  And I also realised that there was something they were hiding away.  When I asked him where he was accommodated when he first arrived, before he was taken to Jozanna, because Jozanna is outside town, which is a veld that they could use for their training.  I think that they knew where they got accommodation when they first arrived.  I think I asked earlier when he could deny when I said I used to see him earlier on.  Especially when the schools were closed.

MR PRIOR: Where did you see Mr Mokoala?

MS A TSEMANE: I saw him entering a shop.  He was one of the people who used to frequent the place.

MR PRIOR: Did you recognise the first applicant, Phila Martin Dolo, or Martin Phila Dolo?

MS A TSEMANE: No, I won't say I know him.  There were so many people entering that place, I couldn't know all of them, because there was nothing I was suspecting at that time.  But I knew that they belonged to the PAC.

ADV SANDI: When you say "they" who are you referring to?  You knew that "they" were belonging to the PAC.  Who was that?

MS A TSEMANE: I am talking about the boys who used to frequent that place.  We knew that they belonged to the PAC.  They used to wear PAC T-shirts.

MR PRIOR: The Sterkspruit Hotel, I think it was also called the Moleko Hotel, did you know that that hotel has also been robbed or attacked?  The people in that hotel, the employees?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, I know the hotel had been attacked once.

MR PRIOR: Did you know who the owners were of that hotel?

MS A TSEMANE: From 1987 until 1991 I was working for Tamaleko, who was the site-owner, but the hotel was built by white people, and the control was with them.

MR PRIOR: And after this attack, do you know what happened to the white people?

MS A TSEMANE: No, I don't know what happened to them.  I just couldn't see them anymore.

MR PRIOR: When you say that, did you not see them in Sterkspruit anymore after that attack?

MS A TSEMANE: No, I didn't see them again.

MR PRIOR: Sterkspruit Garage.  We understand from Mr Makoala that that was also attacked in 1992.  Did you know about that?  Did you get to learn about that?

MS A TSEMANE: I just hear from this sitting that the Sterkspruit Garage was also attacked.

MR PRIOR: Could you tell us who the owner was of that garage during 1992?

MS A TSEMANE: From 1977 up to 1987 in July I was working for Mr Charles Nathan, who was the owner of that garage.  He has his brother called Duncan Nathan.

MR PRIOR: And after that, do you know who was the owner?  Did he sell it ...(intervention)

MS A TSEMANE: No, they never left.  They were always there, and Mr Duncan Nathan was most of the time there.

MR PRIOR: Is there anything else you wish to tell the Committee about this matter?

MS A TSEMANE: What matter are you referring to, Sir?