Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

MR VAN ECK: And during your time at Mattheysen, how did you address Mr Burger?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Most of the times as Colonel, sometimes and Mister.

MR VAN ECK: What was your rank when you left Brixton?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I'm not certain, I was either a Detective-Warrant Officer or a Detective-Sergeant.  I did not study my discharge certificate that closely.  I think it was Detective-Sergeant.

MR VAN ECK: Was the CCB a private organisation or what sort of organisation was it?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was a covert organisation which resorted under the South African Defence Force.  It was an organisation, once again, which was directly connected to the State, to the government of the day.

MR VAN ECK: Thus you were still in State service but simply in a different organisation.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: You salary, medical benefits, pension, did you still receive these benefits on a monthly basis?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, in the form of cash.

MR VAN ECK: We also heard that there were vehicle allowances and so forth, did you receive these?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: And all this money that you received, who paid it out to you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was primarily channelled through Mattheysen Bus Services, the company for which we worked during our first phase of establishment with the CCB, however, the money came from the Defence Force.

MR VAN ECK: And also the CCB name has a civil connotation, did you ever doubt at any stage that you were busy with anything other than a State institution?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Not at all.

MR VAN ECK: We have heard of a cooling off period of approximately six months which had to be undertaken, during which there wasn't much movement.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: And during that six month period, did you visit the former South West Africa?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Towards the end of 1988.

MR VAN ECK: And what was the purpose?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was to monitor SWAPO and to see what the current climate in the country was at the time of my visit, and then I had to give a feedback report to my region, to my cell, or to Mr Burger more specifically.

MR VAN ECK: We have heard that presentations had to be made and that approval had to be gained for the South West Africa/Namibia or yours, did you make such submissions?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: An amount was budgeted and basically by means of an administration submission, a budget was allocated to me.

MR VAN ECK: Can you recall who told you to go there?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: In all probability it was Mr Wouter Basson or Staal Burger.  I must just add that I initiated the whole thing to a great extent, it was during our establishment phase, it was more-or-less a general discussion in the media, the whole question surrounding Namibian independence and SWAPO and so forth.

MR VAN ECK: Just to return to the phase of establishment, what was the plan, what did you have to establish?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: My blue plan was established in a CC called Cabot International, it was a promotions company which among others, would distribute promotional items bearing company logos.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you just repeat the name of the CC.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It is Cabot International, Sir, C-a-b-o-t International.

MR VAN ECK: And what would the CC have to do?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: We had to distribute promotional items for companies.

MR VAN ECK: You went to South West Africa, you went to Namibia at least, you returned, what did you say and what did you do?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I returned and during a cell meeting I informed the relevant parties that SWAPO was going to win the election and if we wanted to play any kind of role in South West, we would have to take definite steps in order to be able to do so.

MR VAN ECK: And who were these parties that you informed?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Staal Burger and Wouter Basson.

MR VAN ECK: Mr Botha, we are referring to incidents which took place more than 11 years ago, did you keep a journal and file of what you did during these times?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, I didn't.

MR VAN ECK: What was the reaction when you stated that the election would most probably not go as it had been hoped for or planned for?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was not favourably received, among others it was said that perhaps I'd visited the wrong country and that the manner in which I had set it out was not correct and that SWAPO was not going to win the election.

MR VAN ECK: It was also mentioned in discussions that more definite action had to be taken.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: At any point thereafter up to this moment, did you have anything to do with the election there, with any actions there?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I did not.

MR VAN ECK: We've had evidence here from Mr Barnard, indicating how he went there and so forth, you personally, were you involved in any way in any matter which had to do with foreign countries?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR VAN ECK: After the six month cooling period, various regions were allocated to every one of you.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: Which region did you receive?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I think I should just clarify this matter somewhat more.  A region was never rigidly applied, persons would be allocated to a region but that did not prevent us from operating in other regions.  The Transvaal region was allocated to me.

MR VAN ECK: The former Transvaal?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: And that stage, when the region was allocated to you, were you still well known in sports circles?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR VAN ECK: You were a well known figure.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, I was.

MR VAN ECK: Your friend at that stage, Mr Barnard, what was his position?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: He had just been released from a prison sentence that he had served and he had been working at an insurance brokerage as an assessor, we met each other at a certain point and told each other that we were attached to the same structure, and upon that basis we struck up a friendship.

MR VAN ECK: Let's be more specific.  You said that you informed each other that you were attached to the same structure, were these direct admissions or roundabout admissions?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I had the feeling that Mr Barnard was trying to recruit me, I had the same idea with him and before we wasted each other's time even further, we told each other where we were working.  We had already established a relationship of trust since 1977, I knew that he had been in the police when I was a school pupil.  We took each other into confidence.

MR VAN ECK: Did you have any further rugby connections at that stage?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, we did, every day we practised together in the gym, we also went jogging together and we also played rugby for the same club.

MR VAN ECK: He stated that at that stage you were the Captain of the first team.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: And on a daily basis you re-established contact with him.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: Can you recall which region or division was allocated to Mr Barnard?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Cape Town.

MR VAN ECK: Were you requested at any point to assist with the testing of certain unconscious members who would be recruited?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, I was.

MR VAN ECK: Could you elaborate on that for us very briefly.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: During January 1989, I went with Mr van Zyl to the Cape for the recruitment of unconscious members.  At the time of this visit we recruited Peaches Gordon, among others, I also tried to recruit a Coloured man, but it was unsuccessful.  During a follow-up visit we tested Peaches Gordon by means of an exercise which Mr van Zyl devised in order to test his credibility.