Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-15

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Well, let me answer as follows.  These names, I can't say I've seen them written elsewhere, what I know is that the allegations or the hearsays were derived from a long time as we were growing.

CHAIRPERSON: You say in this statement in your affidavit that there was a list, people who were identified, how did you find out who was identified?  How do you know so that you can include it in your affidavit?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Well, these names, I was told about these names.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you indicate to us when you were told about it?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Well, I'm saying I heard this from serious allegations and hearsays.

CHAIRPERSON: But when did you hear about this?  That's what I'm asking, can you indicate when you heard about it?  Or can't you tell us?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Well, I can't say exactly when and when I was told because, there was no meeting which I attended where this list was discussed.

MR VAN RENSBURG: The point is, is it not so that this list was compiled over a very long time.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not picking up) are you able to say how long it took to compile this list or not?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: I can't talk about the list, I can talk about the hearsays from the people while if I talk about the lists I might seem to be saying the list was ready and it chose to be displayed for people to see.

CHAIRPERSON: We're not trying to catch you out.  We want to be as helpful as possible.  We asked you a simple question, we don't need a long explanation.  In your interest I wish to point out to you that while you're talking too much, more questions are going to be asked of you.  So answer the question and get finished.  It for that attorney to ask the questions and you answer it as simply as you can.  Do you understand?  And I'm not trying to be funny, I'm telling this in your own interest, do you understand?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Yes, I do.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, the only thing that we want to know is, let's not call it a list, the assembly of names or the identification of these people as witches, did it take place round about February 1990 or was it over a long a period before that that the villagers identified these people as witches?  Which one of the two?

CHAIRPERSON: Is he able to say, Mr Van Rensburg?  Maybe I can help again.  When you heard that this group of people were identified as witches as wizards, did you know that these names were being gathered before you heard about these names or was it the first time you heard of these identifications when you did eventually hear about it?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: It was not the first time.

CHAIRPERSON: Then we're getting closer to the question then.  Can you give us an indication over what period it took the people to make these identifications of all these witches and wizards that needed to be dealt with?  Over what period, are you able to say?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Regarding the evictions, I can't say it took a long time.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not picking up) eviction, identification of these people.  Look at paragraph 15, do you see those names there?  These one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight people's names?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Yes, I can see that.

CHAIRPERSON: You say they were identified as wizards and witches in your affidavit, okay?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not picking up) if you are able to tell us over what period of time it took the people to identify these eight people as being witches and wizards.

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: It had taken a long time.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not picking up) able to say what period or not?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: I cannot.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr Van Rensburg, we've at least established that it took a long time.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, that's all I was looking for.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Whatever.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, if we ignore the names of Edward Mahvunga and also the one of Petrus Mahvunga on that list, what I want to ask you is the other people on that list, were they also evicted from your village?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Yes, they were evicted eventually.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Everyone?  You can go through the list quickly.

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Yes.  I agree.

MR VAN RENSBURG: It was not necessary to burn them, when you informed them they must leave, they left?

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not picking up) say that they were evicted.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Oh, okay, I'll accept that, thank you, Mr Chairman.  Paragraph 16 then
"When Mandela was released in February, a rally was held at Thoyohandou to celebrate his release."
Did you attend that rally?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: I did not attend, I heard about it.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you give us some indication why this was included in your affidavit in support of your application?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Well, I wanted to indicate that the whole country was celebrating.

MR VAN RENSBURG: If we continue on the next page, paragraph 19
"The deceased was an uncle to the legally appointed headman who wanted assume the position of acting headman in the absence of the real headman, Adam Mahvunga, who is employed in Johannesburg."
I want to know from you, on what basis do you say that the deceased wanted to assume the position of acting headman?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: It is because when, in the absence of Adam, when there was something that the villagers needed to do, Edward wanted to be so much involved as the real person in leadership when it was not so.  Like the collection of money for the village towards the chief's kraal, when the collection was done - when the money was collected, he would take the money and use it.  I can give you an example of one incident when there was this mula (indistinct), he will collect the money and take it as his.  Circumcision - that's mula.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Are you saying the deceased collected that money for his own benefit?  He took it, perhaps I misunderstood the interpreter, are you saying that the deceased took that money for the circumcisions for himself?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: I'm not saying he collected, he wanted it to be collected to be his own.

MR VAN RENSBURG: So, he wanted to, he did not actually receive the money?  He wanted to take it for himself?

CHAIRPERSON: It seems that there was a practise that at every initiation, the headman will receive a payment of some sort.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The appointed headman being away in Johannesburg, the was an opportunity for someone to make this collection.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I understand, that is what I am trying to establish.

CHAIRPERSON: And it seems what he's saying is that the deceased, despite not being appointed, wanted to take advantage of that opportunity.

MR VAN RENSBURG: He attempted to - okay.

CHAIRPERSON: He of course gives as an example in response to your question as to 'What makes you say that he wanted to assume this position?'

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, no, that is a good answer I'd say.  Was this a well-known fact in the community that he wanted to collect the money on behalf or in the capacity of a headman?  Was this a well-known fact or do you think it is only you who knew of this?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Could you repeat the question in a nice fashion?

MR VAN RENSBURG: (indistinct) repeat it nicer than that?

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not picking up) people know about this, how did you come to know about it?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Edward said it in front of me.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he say in front of you 'Listen, I want this money to be collected and I want it for myself?'

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Just for the money to be collected for myself, yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you give us an indication of when this took place?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van Rensburg, is it the victim's case that he didn't do that?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that would seriously be (indistinct).