Human Rights Violation Hearings — Johannesburg — 1996-05-02

ABDULHAY JASSAT: I think the magistrate was sympathetic but he was functioning just as a government official, basically, and what he told us was there was nothing he could do about it.  All he had to do, his task was to come and see us once a week, raise the points that we raised with him, he had to take those points back to the special branch.  He didn't go to any commission or anything of that nature.  It went back to the people who were the perpetrators of the crime.  So it was a no win situation virtually.  There's something that - I don't know how I can put it, eventually we felt that there was no point in even raising any problems or any complaints with the magistrate because it was going to go back to the special branch and nothing was being done about our complaints.

CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin Sooka.

YASMINE SOOKA: You mentioned that three medical doctors examined you at the request of your own legal advisor, could you tell us their names please?

ABDULHAY JASSAT: I think I was asked that just a bit earlier, I can't, I wouldn't be able to remember their names.

YASMINE SOOKA: You also talk about the conduct of the
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magistrate, you talk about the conduct of policemen whilst you were being detained, one of our functions is also to recommend measures to prevent such abuses taking place in the future, have you ever given that any thought about what could be done so that the people who administer justice in places like prisons could take care of prisoners in a way which would not take away from their own human rights.

ABDULHAY JASSAT: No up to now, to be honest I haven't, up to now, been thinking along those lines.  I've been - as I said I was in exile for 32 years.  You are involved in other things, you don't think about what's going to happen in a democratic society how one should function, but I will leave that to you know more senior people, people who are more aware.  For example the Truth Commission for example should set down some rules whereby policemen or whoever should act, guidelines for example.

YASMINE SOOKA: One last question.  When did you return to the country and what are you actually doing with your life now?

ABDULHAY JASSAT: Well I returned about three years ago after getting indemnity from the State, both for being a member of a banned organisation, because while I was in exile I worked completely, for the 30 odd years, for the ANC.  So I had to get indemnity for that and I also had to get indemnity for being a member of Umkhonto weSizwe, which I got.  And it's only after that that I was able to return.

YASMINE SOOKA: Do you still work for the ANC or are you retired?

ABDULHAY JASSAT: Sorry, I am working for a commercial firm.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Russel Ally.

RUSSELL ALLY: Mr Jassat you are aware that at these hearings we
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are not going to be making any findings because what we are doing here is taking statements of witnesses which we then have to go and investigate to establish the truth of these statements.  Now you mentioned in your statement that Isoo Chiba was also probably subjected to the same type of treatment and torture as yourself, is he alive?  Can he make a statement to the same effect?

ABDULHAY JASSAT: Well Isoo Chiba is alive.  He is an MP.  And I am not certain whether he's here at the moment, he may be in Cape Town, but I think one should, or the Commissioners should approach him to give evidence.  Unfortunately I did try to get hold of him but I believe he hasn't got a phone at the moment.  He's waiting for them to install a phone at his home.  Seeing that he lives in (...indistinct) it's a bit difficult for me, I don't have transport, so it's a bit difficult for me to get hold of him.

RUSSELL ALLY: And you say that when they tortured you they placed a hessian bag over your head, now that presumably was also to prevent you from seeing who was actually carrying out the torture?

ABDULHAY JASSAT: I am not sure what the purpose of that was because I had seen the policemen although I may not know some of their names, but I knew that there were two special branch chaps and they were senior guys, Lieutenant Coetzee and Van Wyk.  But also the hessian bag was damp.  Now I think that's - I don't know, over the 30 years I've been thinking about this that when there is any - you've got wet clothing for example and you get an electric shock it's much worse than when you are completely dry.  And I think that may have been one of the reasons for the....  The other reason may also have been to avoid us seeing who actually
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tied the electrodes.  I am not certain.

RUSSELL ALLY: So those two names which you mentioned you actually saw them administering torture to you directly, or were they just present in the room?

ABDULHAY JASSAT: Well they were present and you know when there are 12 or 15 policemen there you can't exactly be certain who did what.  But one of the reasons why I wasn't released was because I had a visitor, it was my brother, and I had asked him whether he had been to see my lawyers and he said no, so I got a bit angry and Lieutenant Coetzee was in the room with my brother and myself and I told my brother that I wanted him to go and see the lawyers because, again I used vulgar language, I mean I was in a state and I said, please forgive me, I did say I want these bastards to hang.  I made that specific...
 And incidentally the police, special branch, used to visit us once a eek.  Their visit was over that week.  I saw my brother the day after they had visited me.  The chap who was supposed to visit me was a chap called Lieutenant van Wyk.  He was there the following morning again.  It was unusual, twice in a week and he came and he came and sat down next to me on the floor because I never got up for them when they came into the room, and he said Abdulhay have you got any complaints and things like that.  And I told him what's the point in complaining because I mentioned these things, whatever we mention to the magistrate goes back to you and you do nothing about it, so what are you going on about.  
 So he said - then he went on and he said do you have anything to tell me, so I said I have nothing to tell.  Then he asked me, what's this I hear you want to lay a charge 
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against the special branch.  And I said, yes, I want to.  So he says you know we weren't there.  I said don't lie.  You kicked me or you punched me, one thing or the other, whichever it was, and he says but you know you are going to lose the case.  So I said why are you worried, it's not your money, I'll be using my money.  If I lose the case it's not going to affect you, so why the heck are you worrying.  And that's when they actually approached Isoo Chiba and told him that we will release you on condition that you don't lay charges against these special branch.  And they did release Isoo Chiba a week later.  Of course Isoo Chiba did consult with us and we did tell him that it would be advisable to go rather than sit in prison.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Hlengiwe Mkhize do you have a question?

MS MKHIZE: Thank you.  One small question.  I just wanted to hear from you as to the age at which you first got exposed to police harassments whether you encountered that once you were detained or you have had difficulties before that, especially you and your family?