Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It seems to be that it was the late Lieutenant Segal.

MR PAPIER: Mr Desmond Segal?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR PAPIER: To which Unit did Mr Desmond Segal belong during this time?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I see that he was part of the South African Unit in Guguletu.

MR PAPIER: Was he involved in the investigation of Ashley Kriel or the activity, the incident of the 15th of July?  Was he involved in this incident of the investigation thereof?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As far as I know he was an Investigator after the incident, after this incident, he investigated it.

MR PAPIER: What do you mean, what was his association with the Ashley Kriel incident?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: The shooting incident was investigated by a member other than a member of the Security Branch.

MR PAPIER: According to your statement, this Desmond Segal was stationed at the Guguletu police station, is that correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: According to the certificate, yes.

MR PAPIER: What did the Guguletu police have to do with this whole matter?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Mr Chairman, about this incident, I can only speculate that this had to be investigated by a Unit not associated with the Security Branch.  It was just by chance that he had to partake in this investigation.
	It is general practise that during a shooting incident, this incident is not investigated by a member associated with a specific Unit.

MR PAPIER: Your statement of 1987, did you discuss it with anybody before or while making this statement?
	Let me help you, specifically with Rudolf Liebenberg or Sergeant Abels?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Possibly not the statement per se but the incident, yes, I think we discussed it.

MR PAPIER: You discussed it?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, possibly.

MR PAPIER: And the other two colleagues, Liebenberg and Abels, also made statements during the judicial inquiry and they were used after you had discussed that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.  If we did discuss it.

MR PAPIER: Captain Benzien, if you look at your statement, this is the judicial inquest.  Your Advocate indicated that at the top it says Athlone GDO/23/87, is that correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.

MR PAPIER: Did you make this statement with a view of an informal judicial inquest?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It is possible.  It is difficult to say now.  I could not determine whether it should be a formal or informal inquest.

MR PAPIER: This number, does it say anything, there is no CR?  I just want to determine whether you knew at that stage or whether you have tried to organise that there should be an informal judicial inquest?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: From this incident, there should have been a formal judicial inquest.  Whether it should have been formal or informal or whether I would have been able to influence it, whether it should have been formal or informal, that was not in my hands.

MR PAPIER: Would you please just listen to three extracts from these three affidavits.  Yours, Liebenberg's and Abel's.  In paragraph 6 of Lieutenant Liebenberg's statement and I quote ..."1987/07/09, W80113K, Benzien and K173431, Sergeant Abels, I instructed them to go to Albermarle Street 8, in Hazendal, Athlone and to determine whether Kriel really has returned."
	This is what Liebenberg said.  And I quote in paragraph 3 of your statement as you have already said ..."under instructions of our Commander Lieutenant W. Liebenberg, I and Sergeant Abels went to Albermarle Road 8, in Hazendal, Athlone."  Paragraph 3 of Abel's statement and I quote said ..."under instruction of our Commander W. Liebenberg, I and Benzien went to Albermarle 8, Hazendal, Athlone."
	Now, would you agree with me that the impression created by these three statements is that Abels, you and Abels were instructed by Liebenberg to go directly to Albermarle Street in Athlone to determine whether the deceased had returned.  Would you agree with me?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Mr Chairman, the impression created by these typed versions, but if I can assist the Commission in this regard.

MR PAPIER: Captain, I just want to know yes or no, would you agree that this is the impression created by these statements?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: This is the impression, but it is a wrong impression.

MR PAPIER: I see.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: We do not have copies of Mr Abels and Mr Liebenberg's statements.

MR PAPIER: I am sorry, Honourable Judge.  I might be able to arrange that the investigating team submit that statements, it is part of the inquest proceedings and I assumed that the Honourable Committee would ...

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No, we don't and that is why some of us, perhaps don't fully appreciate the point you are trying to make.  I suppose somebody will attend to that.

MR PAPIER: If it pleases you Judge.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: To the extent that you think you will be able to take us along with you, even though we don't have copies of those statements, you may continue.

MR PAPIER: Thank you Judge, I will do my best.  Captain Benzien ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Papier, how long will it take you to prepare these papers if we take a short adjournment at this stage?

MR PAPIER: I imagine Honourable Chair, that it is just a matter of photocopying these documents and it shouldn't take longer than five minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will take the customary short adjournment at this stage and you will call us in as soon as you are ready.  We will take the customary break for 15 minutes.

MR PAPIER: As it pleases you.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS FOR 15 MINUTES - ON RESUMPTION: .

CHAIRPERSON: Just to avoid causing confusion, these documents will now go in as Exhibits, and we will mark them as Exhibit A and Exhibit B.

MR PAPIER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any choice you have?

MR PAPIER: I have no choice, Honourable Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, which one do you want?  Do you want Abels' to be Exhibit A.

MR PAPIER: Exhibit A.

CHAIRPERSON: And the other will go in as Exhibit B.

MR PAPIER: As the Chair pleases.

STATEMENTS OF ABELS HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT A AND OF LIEBENBERG AS EXHIBIT B: .

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold it.  You may proceed.

MR PAPIER: As the Chair pleases.  Captain Benzien, I have referred you to paragraph 6 of Exhibit B, and that is the statement by Lieutenant Liebenberg.
	And then I also referred you to paragraph 3 of your statement and your statement is part of your application, and I have also referred you to paragraph 3 of Exhibit A, and that is Constable Abels' statement.
	And this, you will remember is related to the instructions you received to go to Albermarle Road 8, in Hazendal, Athlone.  My question is therefore did it happen like that?
	Did you receive direct instructions to go to number 8, yes or no?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It is very difficult to answer yes or no because if I look at my statement paragraph 4, that is the statement just after number 3, our task was to survey the area around this place, to see whether this trained ANC terrorist was not hiding there, because we had information that this terrorist probably could be in this house or one of the adjoining houses.
	And we approached this house by foot.  I want to explain here and say, that during the formal inquest this point was repeatedly under investigation and discussed.

MR PAPIER: And the address Albermarle Way 8, after this shooting incident, was that the address which was relevant?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: For example, and this was through evidence, we did not go directly to Albermarle Way 8, we came to the house adjoining that house, I don't know whether it was number 6 or number 10.