Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-05

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: What I still remember is the electrical method.  We also used electrical shocks and frog-jumping him.  Ja, we let him do frog-jumping with his hands stretched and some like that.

MR MEYER: The next victim that is listed in your statement is Mr Ravele, and as far as he is concerned you said he was assaulted by yourself by slapping him also at his home during interrogation.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: As far as Mr Ravele is concerned it happened this way.  Mr Ravele of course we assaulted him not at his home only.  Ravele was a person who seemed to be interested in co-operating with the police in investigating this case of the bombing of the police station where he ended up coming to the police station with a detonator and gave it to Captain Sofuwa promising to give us evidence in connection with those people involved.
	Later we received information that at Makonde, in Venda, gunshots were heard.  In understanding that Mr Ravele is staying in the direction where the gunshots were heard I went there with Mr Ramaligela to search for him and then we found him.  In finding him Ravele was no longer prepared to tell the truth.  He said yes, I also heard it, and then we decided to take him to the office where we would question him well.
	In the office we were interrogating him, he said "yes I heard it but I don't know how it happened".  Then looking at the arm I realised that there was a burning and then I questioned him, what is it that burnt you here on the shoulder?  He said no it just happened one night.  Then we said, no, I think it's you who shot that gun and then maybe something burnt you on the shoulder from the bullets.
	While we were still beating Mr Ravele, Mr Ravele decided then to say, "no let me tell you the truth.  I am the person responsible for the gunshot".  And then we investigated, "where is the gun?".  He said, "I have it, it is right in my house and I dug and hid it there".  That was an AK47 gun with its ammunitions.  It is then that Mr Ravele showed us where he shot into the air.  
	While we were looking there we found doppies. There were many.  I can't remember how many doppies there were.  It is then that we take Mr Ravele to his home.  He took a spade and then he dug in the middle of the house and then we found the AK47.  We took it and then we returned to our office.
	On our arrival - let me say, as we were still dealing with Mr Ravele he also told us that there were other guns hidden which were hidden by those people who shot at the police station.  I still remember that the Mobile Unit was also involved and we went with the Mobile squad to Mr Ravele's place.  We went to a mountain near Makonde.  We were taken to the place where the guns were hidden.  It was just under a big stone.  It appeared that only doppies were left.  That is the only thing that we were able to find.
	We took Mr Ravele back to the office so that he could be charged.  He was taken to court.

MR MEYER: Alright.  You have already mentioned that you beat Mr Ravele.  Did you use any other methods of assault on him?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: With regard to Mr Ravele, what I still remember we didn't use various methods because he did admit that he would be able to tell us the truth.  That is why we continued.

MR MEYER: So just to clear up this point then with regards to Mr Ravele, you personally only beat him with your hands, is that correct?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Yes it is true I did assault him, I used my backhand.

MR MEYER: Then with regard to Mr Chikororo, in your statement you said that you never assaulted him, is that true or not?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: With regard to Mr Chikororo I can't say it is not true because in those days it was quite confusing because we just assaulted a lot of people.  It is possible that I might have hit him.  I can't really remember what happened in those days. He is one of those people who was also detained.  It is not unlikely that we may not have hit him.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember hitting him or assaulting him in any other fashion, you yourself?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well I can't remember torturing him.  Anyway I think I did use my bare hand.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You say that it's not unlikely that you may have assaulted Mr Chikororo, you can't say whether you assaulted him or not?  You don't know?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: We did torture these people, all these detainees were tortured.  It was difficult for us to extract information and there was no time really to do otherwise.  We did torture them.  I do admit that they really suffered.

CHAIRPERSON: But if you can't remember whether or not you tortured him why did you say that you never assaulted him in your statement?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Let me say that at the time of the statement-taking I can't really remember very vividly.  It is a long time ago.  I can't really remember what happened then.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now if you couldn't remember when you were completing this statement, and this was done on the 7th of January 1998, and you still couldn't remember, in fact it's not that you couldn't remember you said that you did not assault him on the 7th of January 1998, which is much earlier than where we are now, and when you completed another application in December of 1996 you still insisted that you had not assaulted Mr Chikororo, how can you now say that it's possible that you could have assaulted him?  The events were much fresher than they should be now.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well at the time when we submitted this first statement you must remember that we didn't have a legal representative and also we were only hearing about this over the radio ...(intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: No when ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what difference does it make whether you have got a legal representative or not as to whether you can remember doing something or forgetting about something?  The presence of a lawyer who wasn't at the incident, how can that affect your memory?

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well yes it does affect that, the attorney was really asking several issues which we were able to explain and we were able to remember.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But you must have known, you don't need a lawyer to jog your memory about something that you personally did.  The lawyer wouldn't know whether you assaulted somebody or not unless you volunteered that information when you gave him instruction.  It's not something that you could be assisted by a legal representative to better remember.
	And you say at that time you were not legally represented, and I want to put it to you that at the time when you completed the statement that I am referring to, your affidavit, which was a supplementary affidavit which you signed on the 7th of January 1998, you did that with the assistance of your lawyer.  The initial application you completed most probably on your own.
	You made the supplementary affidavit subsequent to enquiries made by the Committee.  They wanted specifics of the assault for which you were seeking amnesty and your lawyer went on to emphasise that you had not committed any gross violation of human rights and therefore you didn't want to - there was no need for you to have a hearing.  He must have received instructions from you that the assaults committed were not serious and you must have told him that you didn't assault Mr Chikororo.

PHUMULA JOSIAS MANAGA: Well I am not really disputing that that I didn't say that.  I can't really tell exactly how it happened.  We may have possibly hit Mr Chikororo, but I don't dispute that.  Well if I say I didn't then I may be confusing myself.  I just want to say exactly what happened.