Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

MR PATEL: Now we know that according to your evidence that the attempts at negotiations or mediations failed, what then became your purpose in committing the offences for which you claim amnesty?  Let me put it to you this way, you've claimed amnesty for a number of murders and attempted murders, is that correct?

MR ZWANE: That is correct.

MR PATEL: And the setting up of self-defence units or an instruction to do so, is that correct?

MR ZWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: Now these murders and the setting up of the self-defence units, what was the purpose behind them?

MR ZWANE: I think the main reason was for us to be able to protect ourselves after realising that there was absolutely no way that we could negotiate with our opponents and that the negotiations were not bringing any peace and tranquillity, and upon realising that the police were working hand in hand with the Black Cats, we realised that we had to find a way to protect ourselves and other members of the community.

MR PATEL: I have no further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, I don't suppose you've got any questions have you?

MR BLACK: There's just one issue which, of information I'd like clarified.  Perhaps this witness can, thank you.
	Mr Zwane, whenever reference is made to the committee making a decision to get rid of, let's put it that way, or eliminate Mr Jwi Zwane, both Mr Mndebele and Mr Mkhwanazi make reference a funeral that was held and shots had been fired into a coffin, were you present at that funeral?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I was present.

MR BLACK: Is it possible for you to tell us exactly what happened with regard to the shooting and whether Mr Jwi Zwane or his brother played any role at that shooting?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I can briefly explain.  When we went to the funeral we were small little groups.  I was not in the group that was at the front and when the shooting started we got scattered but what I saw at a distance was Jwi Zwane standing in front of the coffin shooting into the coffin and by that time the coffin was on the ground.

MR BLACK: I have not further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK

MR KEMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, I will be very brief.
	This last incident which you've referred to where Mr Jwi Zwane fired shots into the coffin, did you witness this yourself?

MR ZWANE: I witnessed it personally.

MR KEMP: And approximately how many shots did he fire?

MR ZWANE: I will not be able to recall as to how many times he shot but I could see him shooting.  I was at a distance and I could see him as I'm indicating, shooting into the coffin.  As to how many times I have no clarity.

MR KEMP: Are you aware that these or this allegation of yours was one of the allegations that was thoroughly investigated by the Goldstone Commission?

MR ZWANE: I wouldn't know that.

MR KEMP: I put to you that the Goldstone Commission thoroughly investigated it and that investigation and the reports after that incident indicated that not one single shot had been fired into that coffin.

MR ZWANE: What I know is what happened, what the Goldstone Commission found out is its own findings.

MR KEMP: It is apparent Sir, that you are imagining a lot of stuff.

MR PATEL: Objection Mr Chairman, on what is that based, this imagination?

MR KEMP: Do you want me to clarify that Mr Commissioner?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR KEMP: Well, there was proper evidence let by numerous witnesses at the Goldstone Commission that at that particular incident there was no damage to the corpse or to the coffin after that incident, so if shots were fired they must have been blanks or imagined.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any comment?

MR ZWANE: If that is Goldstone's findings, I have no knowledge thereof but I'm telling you about what I saw and I stand by what I saw.

MR KEMP: If called to reply to any of the allegations that you made, the particular members of the South African Police whom you referred to will deny that they in any way helped or assisted the Black Cats as indicated by you or that any attempt was made on your life with the assistance of any member of the former South African Police.

MR ZWANE: I will not deny that.  It is very clear that nobody would plead guilty to anything.  We would all like to plead not guilty and absolve ourselves of any crimes that we have committed, that is what is happening with those police.  But they chased me out of the police station and thereafter the Black Cats came out of the very same police station, so you can make your own conclusions.  They knew that what they were not doing was not lawful, that is why they would deny it.

MR KEMP: Mr Chairman, I do not intend to pursue this any further, I don't think it goes to the merits of these applications.  I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KEMP

CHAIRPERSON: Miss van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to be long?

MS VAN DER WALT: No, but it's always a difficult question to answer Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you plan on taking some time?

MS VAN DER WALT: Sir, I have a problem with your application for amnesty, the one where you have to comply, where you have to receive amnesty from this Committee and that is the official form, page 90.  Could you page there?  This application form, did you fill it in yourself?  It would seem as if you were assisted by an attorney, Mr Radebe, is that correct?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I was assisted by my attorney.

MS VAN DER WALT: And in accordance with Section 21 of the Act, you have to comply with the requirements to hand in a proper application.  Did you tell the attorney all the facts, did you give him all the facts when you filled in this form?  This would be the 1st of May 1997.

MR ZWANE: What is your question?

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you give him all the facts as you have testified here today, as to the incidents for which you apply for amnesty?  As you have testified today, all the particulars, did you tell the attorney?

MR ZWANE: I gave my attorney all that was needed in order to complete the form fully and I told myself that whatever additional information I would give when I render my evidence.

MS VAN DER WALT: So according to this form that was sent to the Amnesty Committee, on page 93 you say that you acted in accordance with instruction, that is question 11(a) and you give all the particulars
"Special Committee to deal with violence in Ermelo, ANC Ermelo"
Do you see that?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I do.

MS VAN DER WALT: Are those the particulars you gave to your attorney?

MR ZWANE: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Nothing else?

MR ZWANE: With regard to what?

MS VAN DER WALT: Your amnesty application, the incidents for which you apply for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you tell your attorney the whole story?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Especially insofar as your participation in the whole affair?

MR ZWANE: Yes, I did.

MS VAN DER WALT: But that does not appear in your application, that is my problem.

MR ZWANE: What is it that is not contained in my amnesty application, what is it exactly?

MS VAN DER WALT: Nothing that you said today.

MR PATEL: With respect Mr Chairman, my learned friend must be more specific with regard to what is not contained in his form as apposed to his evidence today, more particularly when you look at the form it refers to the Background Statement.

MS VAN DER WALT: We'll get to that.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you referring to?