Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

CHAIRPERSON: Does it matter whether the witness makes a mistake in saying that Hlasa shot me, it was Hlasa who shot me in the leg and whereas in fact he was shot by Mphoreng or some other person or by Sam or somebody.  What difference does it make, they were all on a common purpose, they acted on the base of common purpose in killing these people, it doesn't matter who shot what.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I don't think it's really material.  Alright, just one little detail then.  At Shawella, at this house where you were taken to, were all the victims taken out of the cars into the house or were just some of you taken into the house?

SIMON MORRIS: When we reached that place I was taken from one boot to another boot and I tried to move, while I moved from one boot to another boot Edwin Nkomo was instructed to get into the house.

MR TLOUBATLA: So in other words all what you know is that Vuyani was instructed to get into the house and you remained in the boot of the car?

SIMON MORRIS: I was first taken out, Vuyani second and then Sekano the third one.

MR TLOUBATLA: So you don't know of any other person who was taken into the house, that is among the victims?

SIMON MORRIS: I was told to face down, not to look on the sides but I could hear that he was instructed to get into the house.

MR TLOUBATLA: You don't follow what I'm saying.  I say except Vuyani, you don't know of any of the victims that went into the house?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes I cannot account for that sir.

MR TLOUBATLA: I have no further question sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TLOUBATLA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bink?

MR BRINK: No thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: Just one little aspect.  Were any of you wearing UDF T-shirts?

SIMON MORRIS: No, no Madam no.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you.

MR MALAN: May I just follow on that.  Nobody had a UDF T-shirt on under their clothes?

SIMON MORRIS: None.

MR MALAN: And nobody was given as old clothes a UDF T-shirt to put on?

SIMON MORRIS: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, when this - we were told that you were interrogated because they wanted to know whether you were members of UDF or whatever and we were told you were assaulted in the process.  You yourself have said to us that you were assaulted an questioned whether you were UDF members.  What I want to know from you is, in the process of interrogation is there a time when anyone of you admitted that they were UDF members or SOSCO?

SIMON MORRIS: No there was no time when one of us said he's a member of the UDF, there's not time.  The answer was always no, no, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Despite this severe assault, none of you under pain, even if it were to be under pain, admitted that they were UDF?

SIMON MORRIS: No sir.

CHAIRPERSON: In the process of being assaulted, were they not trying to force you to admit that you were UDF?

SIMON MORRIS: They were trying to do that but we said no.

CHAIRPERSON: You, despite the severe pains, despite the pliers for example on private parts, it was never admitted by either you or anyone of you that you were UDF members?

SIMON MORRIS: No sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, let me sum you up.  Your evidence is not to us as follows:  This people wanted us to admit that we were UDF, we denied, they assaulted us very badly with iron bars, pliers and all that and because of that we admitted that we're UDF because we were under severe pain.  That is not your evidence?  You evidence is that pain, notwithstanding, you never admitted that you're UDF members?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Well is it likely though, I mean you were so severely assaulted, you were even screaming so that the neighbours could hear and they were forcing you to be a UDF member.  Isn't the likelihood that you would, all be it under pain, you would admit that you're UDF members?

SIMON MORRIS: No, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway that's not your evidence you've said.  Do you want to re-examine Mr - Mr Tloubatla what's the problem?

MR TLOUBATLA: I wanted to follow up - perhaps I can - there is something I wanted to follow up based on the questioning now.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you converse it yourself during the proceedings?

MR TLOUBATLA: Well it's simply because it is following up on the cross examination of Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: This issue of assault was conversed tremendously by anyway let's hear what you want to say.
FURTHER

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Morris despite the fact that you were separated, you were in different rooms, are you saying that none of the other victims admitted that he was a member of UDF?

SIMON MORRIS: No one admitted.

MR TLOUBATLA: How can you say that if you were not in the same room?

SIMON MORRIS: When they took turns the other people then said your friends are saying you are UDF members, what do you say and then we would say no and then the interrogation goes on again and again.

MR TLOUBATLA: (indistinct)
NO FURTHER QUESTION BY MR TLOUBATLA

MR MALAN: Mr Morris Mr Ameen in his cross examination of some of the applicants put it to them that there was no evidence of the house having been bombed when you get there.  You confirmed this and you refer to the painting but he also put it to the applicants that your version is that the house indeed was bombed subsequent or at some later stage this house was bombed.  Who told him that, did you know that Jeff's house was bombed later?

SIMON MORRIS: That is what we heard when I was in hospital but I have no knowledge of that.

MR MALAN: One of the Exhibits, I think Exhibit H, that Mr Tloubatla held out to you, the Star of the 26th of October 1986, he read there and he talked about the reprisals and that the house the following night was bombed.  Is your recollection that that refers to that following night, the bombing?

SIMON MORRIS: No I don't know sir.

MR MALAN: You don't know when?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes, it was when I was admitted at hospital, I think it was on Friday (indistinct) Sekano, I then met my father and then on Saturday he came back with my mother and also on Sunday even the whole week.

MR MALAN: This question of the bombing and which house it is, I just want to ask you a question or two about that still.  The house of Jeff, I remember correctly evidence was given that that was an ordinary four roomed house?

SIMON MORRIS: Yes sir.

MR MALAN: It had only two bedrooms or would it have had a third bedroom?

SIMON MORRIS: I don't know because the houses in Orlando West are not the same.  We have three roomed house, we have five roomed houses.

MR MALAN: I think Mr Tloubatla if you can assist me in memory I think the evidence was that it was a four roomed house?

MR TLOUBATLA: Yes with a - the toilet is inside the house if I'm ...

MR MALAN: My question really relates to the two bedrooms.  You say that the bedroom within which you were assaulted or tortured, there was no sign of a burning or a bombing?

SIMON MORRIS: No sir, no.

MR MALAN: And you have no knowledge of the second bedroom of what that looked like?

SIMON MORRIS: No.

MR MALAN: You were never into the second bedroom?

SIMON MORRIS: No.

MR MALAN: And in the kitchen there was no sign of a bombing?

SIMON MORRIS: No.

MR MALAN: You didn't see glass anywhere over the place?

SIMON MORRIS: No, no sir.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ameen?

MR AMEEN: No, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: It may be a convenient stage to adjourn and then maybe start at quarter to two.  Mr Ameen?

MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman I've consulted with my client, the second victim will not be testifying this afternoon.  I do not think that his testimony, if he does testify, will take the matter any further and that is it from our side.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then that would conclude these proceedings and do you propose to submit a written argument?

MR AMEEN: Yes Mr Chairman, I discussed that with my colleague and I suggest that we be allowed to do that within a period of whatever is a reasonable time.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla?