Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-04

MS THABETE: According to my instructions, Mr Sambo, after biting Mr Van der Spuy's right-hand wrist, as you've admitted that you did bite it, you disarmed the deceased, is that correct?

VOICE SAMBO: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you please repeat yourself, Ms Thabete, for my notes?

MS THABETE: Mr Sambo, isn't it correct that you after you had bitten the right-hand wrist of Mr Van der Spuy, you disarmed him?

VOICE SAMBO: It happened same time, when I grabbed his hand, I was trying to take his gun, because I grabbed his hand in a way that the gun wasn't facing towards me, because the gun was already on.   I didn't want the gun to shoot me, and then I took the gun from him.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you bite him?

VOICE SAMBO: As I was taking the gun.

CHAIRPERSON: When you bite him, it didn't happen that when your teeth were in his flesh, you took the gun from him?

VOICE SAMBO: Yes, that's how it happened.

MS THABETE: After taking - after disarming the deceased, is it correct that you took two steps backwards, you cocked the weapon and you swung the weapon around their faces, their faces, that is Mr O'Farrell and Mr Van der Spuy's faces, is that correct?

VOICE SAMBO: If you can please repeat?   No, I didn't.   Maybe I don't understand your question, you said after I disarmed him... (intervention).

MS THABETE: It's my instructions, Mr Sambo, that after disarming the deceased, you took two steps backwards, you cocked the weapon, and then you swung the weapon around onto their faces, the faces of Mr... (intervention).

VOICE SAMBO: That's not true.

MS THABETE: It's also my instructions that you turned around and then you started walking away, and as you were at the gate, Mr Van der Spuy shouted at Mr O'Farrell that "Shoot him, because he has my gun", that's what he said, and upon you hearing that... (intervention).

MR LAX: Just let him answer.

MS THABETE: It's one sentence.

MR LAX: Part of the problem, Ms Thabete, is that when you put three or four different facts into one question and he says no, he may be saying no to just one of them, or he may be saying no to all of them, and you leave the door wide open to all sorts of problems later.

MS THABETE: I'm indebted to you.   It's my instruction, Mr Sambo, that after you had swung the weapon around their faces, you turned and you started walking away to the gate, is that true?

VOICE SAMBO: No, that's not true.

MS THABETE: It's also my instruction that Mr Van der Spuy shouted at Mr O'Farrell and said, "Shoot him, he has my gun"?

VOICE SAMBO: That's not true.

MS THABETE: It's also my instructions that upon you hearing Mr Van der Spuy saying, "Shoot him, he has my gun", you turned around and at that stage you saw Mr O'Farrell drawing his gun and cocking it, is that true?

VOICE SAMBO: No, that's not true.

MS THABETE: It's also my instructions, Mr Sambo, that after you saw Mr O'Farrell drawing his gun, you then shot at the deceased.   What is your response to that?

VOICE SAMBO: This is a lie, a blue lie.

MS THABETE: It's also my instructions that Mr O'Farrell, after you had shot the deceased, Mr O'Farrell pointed the firearm at you, and before he could shoot you, he was attacked, and as a result of his hands being hit by the said attack, he shot at you, or one shot was fired as a result of the attack, is that true?

MR BLACK: With respect, could my just learned friend clarify what she means by "attacked", I don't know... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you do that, Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: Mr Sambo, my instructions are when Mr O'Farrell had pointed the firearm at you, he was attacked by your brother and some other people who were at your house.   Do you know anything about that?

VOICE SAMBO: This is a lie.

MS THABETE: It's also my instruction that when they attacked him, they hit his hand, whereupon, or resulting in the trigger being pulled and one shot being fired in your direction.

CHAIRPERSON: How many people is it alleged attacked Mr O'Farrell?

VOICE SAMBO: This is not true.

MS THABETE: Sorry, Madam Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: How many people are you alleging attacked Mr O'Farrell?

MS THABETE: I will have to get... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: You've mentioned the brother?

MS THABETE: My instructions are it's the brother and other people, but I don't have the exact number, I can quickly... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Is it a small group, is it one person?   Mr O'Farrell, I think we can grant you a right to sit next to Ms Thabete so that it can facilitate her getting instructions from you as she puts questions to Mr Sambo and as Mr Sambo responds to her questions.

MS THABETE: My instructions, Madam Chair, are that it was plus-minus approximately six people, amongst them was the brother of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, Mr Sambo, do you recall that a small group of people, consisting of approximately six persons, including your brother, attacked Mr O'Farrell?

VOICE SAMBO: That's a blue lie, I don't know anything about that.

CHAIRPERSON: During the occurrence of this incident, was there such a group of persons?

VOICE SAMBO: I don't have any information of such.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not at any stage material to this incident witness a small group of persons who had gathered around the scene?

VOICE SAMBO: I didn't see any people, except for the two.

CHAIRPERSON: Was your brother not in the vicinity during the occurrence of this incident?

VOICE SAMBO: I didn't see him at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   You may proceed, Ms Thabete.

MS THABETE: Thank you, Madam Chair.   Mr Sambo, it's my instructions that the deceased never shot you.   The shot that actually injured you was fired by Mr O'Farrell.   What's your response to that?

VOICE SAMBO: That's a blue lie.   If he shot me, I would have killed him, he's lying.

MS THABETE: It's also my instructions, Mr Sambo, that after he had been shot, Mr O'Farrell was, after Mr O'Farrell was attacked again by your brother and the other group of people, two shots also were mistakenly - two shots were mistakenly fired and they went off into the ground.   What's your comment?

VOICE SAMBO: I can't understand your question clearly?

MS THABETE: I'm saying besides the shot that injured you, according to my instructions two other shots were fired on the ground by mistake.   Do you know anything about that?

VOICE SAMBO: I don't know whether I should ask something in order for me to understand your question clearly?

CHAIRPERSON: You may do so.

VOICE SAMBO: I don't understand whether you're referring to the bullets which went off when I was trying to get hold, or to get the gun from Mr Van der Spuy or are you talking about another two shots which I don't know.

MS THABETE: I'm talking about the incident where Mr O'Farrell was attacked by a group of people and two shots were mistakenly fired on the ground... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: By whom?

MS THABETE: ...by Mr O'Farrell.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETE: What is your response?

VOICE SAMBO: I don't know anything about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear any shots being fired after you had disarmed Mr Van der Spuy?

VOICE SAMBO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear any shots being fired after you had shot Mr Van der Spuy?

VOICE SAMBO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there no old ladies and old men in the vicinity during the occurrence of this incident?

VOICE SAMBO: I didn't see them.

CHAIRPERSON: Immediately after grappling for the gun with Mr Van der Spuy, was Mr O'Farrell within your sight, could you see him?

VOICE SAMBO: After I shot Van der Spuy, that's when I saw Mr O'Farrell.

CHAIRPERSON: And where was he at that stage?

VOICE SAMBO: Right in front of the BMW and he was coming towards my direction.   He had his gun pointing at me.   At that time I've already shot Mr Van der Spuy.

CHAIRPERSON: And your evidence is that there was no-one around Mr O'Farrell at that stage as he was cocking his firearm?