Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: He was quite positive, he said yes he would gladly assist us, and that I should give him a chance and that he would make the necessary arrangements and then inform me when we were to come.

MR BOOYENS: Did he contact you at a later stage?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: And was it arranged on that occasion - well in the first place that it was to happen at Komatipoort where did the idea come from, from you or from Dirk?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: My idea was that we should take this man, or if we had eliminated him we should have tried to get rid of the body so that it would not be found in the RSA, that it would be found somewhere else and then not be able to be identified and my suggestion was Mozambique because at that stage the authorities did not cooperate with the South African police on the borders and my feeling was that they would not have made enquiries and therefore I suggested the Mozambique border in the vicinity of Komatipoort.

MR BOOYENS: And did Dirk back you on this?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: He did.

MR BOOYENS: And did you reach an agreement to meet at Komatipoort?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: There are Occurrence Book entries which were handed in which seems that the deceased on the 10th of August was so-called released from Jeffrey's Bay where he was detained?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: How long after Herman du Plessis discussed his problem with you the first time until when you departed did you leave for the Eastern Transvaal and to Komatipoort?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I cannot say exactly, but if I have to estimate it would be approximately a week, a week and a half.

MR BOOYENS: So seven to ten days more-or-less?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: It has been suggested apparently after a problem arose because the man sustained brain injuries he was apparently concealed or hidden for a period of the first half of August, September and October, a period of two-and-a-half months, could there have been such a long period of time between when du Plessis discussed his problems with you and when you left for Komatipoort, approximately two and a half months?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR BOOYENS: You say that it's impossible for you to recall a date, that's what you told me, but you heard that Mr du Plessis said that that's the date he found in the documentation that was given when the man was released, are you aware of the documentation that was sent up to head office?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes I am.

MR BOOYENS: And when after the apparent release and the request that he be released did you depart with Mr Kondile?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: As far as I am aware the day that he was released was the same day that we left with him.

MR BOOYENS: Did you arrange a specific date with Dirk Coetzee?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And the apparent release and the date were they close together?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Let us also deal with something else regarding Dirk Coetzee's evidence.  How much did you have to do with Mr Kondile's interrogation, if anything at all?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I had nothing to do with it.

MR BOOYENS: Can you recall whether you ever spoke to Mr Kondile or visited him?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I cannot recall such a thing.  I am actually convinced that I saw him the first time the day that we left here with him.

MR BOOYENS: So you had nothing to do with his interrogation, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Herman du Plessis' reporting duty was not to you he had to report elsewhere?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: You worked at different desks?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Can you recall, according to the Occurrence Book he was apparently released about 10 o'clock that morning.  Mr du Plessis' evidence is that he drove from Jeffrey's Bay to Port Elizabeth where he picked you up, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Ja.

MR BOOYENS: That's him and Mr Raath?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Approximately what time did you leave Port Elizabeth?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I think it was in the afternoon, I am not quite sure.

MR BOOYENS: You left for Bloemfontein?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Was it still daylight when you arrived in Bloemfontein or was it evening?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No it was evening already.

MR BOOYENS: Do you know whether it was late or early, what was your impression?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: If I have to guess it was more-or-less nine thirty, ten o'clock.

MR BOOYENS: What was the purpose of stopping at Bloemfontein?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: The vehicle with which he entered South Africa was still there.

MR BOOYENS: Who told you that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Mr du Plessis.

MR BOOYENS: Did you at any stage have anything to do with Kondile's vehicle?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR BOOYENS: In the testimony of Dirk Coetzee in his application was that Kondile's vehicle was parked in Jeffrey's Bay and that on occasion he visited you there and he saw the vehicle, that he also saw Kondile where he was handcuffed to a bed, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR BOOYENS: Let us just break this up, as far as you know was Kondile's car ever in Jeffrey's Bay?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No as far as my knowledge goes, not.

MR BOOYENS: Did Dirk Coetzee ever - were you and he ever together at Jeffrey's Bay before the death of Kondile?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Not as far as I can recall, I do not know of such a case.

MR BOOYENS: Do you know that Dirk Coetzee was in the Eastern Cape at one stage?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Ja.

MR BOOYENS: Do you  know when it was?  Before or after the incident?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: It was after the Kondile incident as far as I can remember.

MR BOOYENS: You met Dirk Coetzee at Komatipoort was he alone?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.  He was there together with Roy Otto.

MR BOOYENS: Did you know Roy Otto?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I did know him but not well.  Before the occasion I had only seen him most probably about twice.

MR BOOYENS: But were you told this is Roy Otto or did you know it was him?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I knew it was him.

MR BOOYENS: Are you satisfied that it was Roy Otto?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Did you see Archie Flemington there?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR BOOYENS: Do you know him?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Did you have anything to do with the personnel stationed at Ermelo, Deetlefs and Rorich?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR BOOYENS: Okay so it's you yourself, the testimony of Mr du Plessis is that Sergeant Raath was there as well, du Plessis, Kondile, Dirk Coetzee, Roy Otto, who, if anybody, was still there?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: It was only the persons that you have now mentioned.

MR BOOYENS: So it's the five of you and the deceased?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you at any stage - were there any other members present?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR BOOYENS: It has been suggested by my learned friend Mr Jansen that Coetzee is under the impression that you stopped over at Ermelo that evening.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I heard that.

MR BOOYENS: Did you drive through Ermelo?