Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-31

MR LAX: Why didn't you tell us that you did it, before I put this question to you in this way?  I gave you enough chance to tell us what other steps you took?

SIFISO MALEVU: I thought you were asking about what we intended doing that was close to what I had explained before, that was robbing of gun shops and police stations.

MR LAX: Carry on, your record will speak for itself.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you.

SIFISO MALEVU: Although I am not absolutely certain of Mr Mpanza's movements of where he went, because we were not always together, however, there were people that I approached and asked, although I knew that it would not be easy to obtain firearms that would be taken to another place on a permanent basis.
	Whoever had a firearm at the time, did not want to part with it, because the situation was not okay, so that if you borrowed a firearm from somebody, you would have to return it after use.  It would have been difficult to obtain firearms from other people to take them to Mkababa permanently, because there were problems around the area that we were in, itself, and the firearms were not many.

MS MOHAMED: Mr Malevu, when you were having all these difficulties about obtaining firearms, what did you eventually decide to do to obtain your firearms?

SIFISO MALEVU: I would explain that whilst we were still faced with the problem of acquiring firearms for the Mkababa area.  I think after about three or four weeks a request came from Empangeni.  Mr Mpanza then sent me to Empangeni to attend to that request.
	It concerned the killing of ANC comrades.

CHAIRPERSON: And?

SIFISO MALEVU: Mr Mpanza then organised that I should go to Empangeni to meet a certain gentleman.  I think his name was Mayibuya.   We contacted him by telephone prior to my departure for Ngoya, I did not know this person, but he was known to comrade Mpanza.
	We introduced ourselves over the phone and he explained what car he was driving, so I left after arranging a date over the telephone.  I left for Empangeni, where I met comrade Mayibuya.
	Comrade Mayibuya took me to ESIkhaweni township.  We remained there for a short while.

MS MOHAMED: Mr Malevu, what was the purpose of your going to Empangeni and meet Mr Mayibuya?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malevu, you heard Mr Mpanza testify about what happened and how this thing was planned, correct?

SIFISO MALEVU: Yes, I did hear him.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm what he says as far as it affects you?

SIFISO MALEVU: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything you want to change or alter about what he said about you or do you agree with what he said?

SIFISO MALEVU: From what I heard, I agree with what he said.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Is there any more questions, Ms Mohamed?

MS MOHAMED: No, Mr Chair, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday?

MR PANDAY: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Malevu, was the situation in Mkababa urgent to get firearms?

SIFISO MALEVU: It was urgent.

MR PANDAY: Why did you not consider robbing a bank to get these firearms, to get the cash?

SIFISO MALEVU: Normally banks are situated in public areas where most people could be found.  We were trying to avoid a place which were likely to expose members of the public to a danger.

MR PANDAY: But wasn't a wholesaler situated next to the public, a place where the public was?

SIFISO MALEVU: In that area, or that place, is not situated near a public area, there were not many people around there, and even then, the people would be moving around there at certain times.
	The place would be busy at certain times.

MR PANDAY: Did you see who took the weapon of the security guard?

SIFISO MALEVU: No, I did not.

MR PANDAY: Okay, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Malevu, I would like to inform you that I spoke to Ms
Mkhize yesterday and she confirmed to me that the statement that you and Ziba and Mzwake Shandu gathered and applied for amnesty unilaterally, in one application form, which was signed by Ziba, it is what you have told her.  I just want to put that to you.  She is going to come today and give evidence to that effect, what is your response to that?

SIFISO MALEVU: There is not much I can say about what Mrs Mkhize alleges.

MS THABETHE: What I want to know from  you is, do you still insist that you never told her that you signed one application form, and through that you had intended to apply by signing one application form?  I want you to tell me whether you deny that, or whether you agree with that?

SIFISO MALEVU: I deny having made that statement.

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, I would like to speak to Mr Cele quickly, because he is the one who took the statement as well, with Mkhize.   He is right next to me.

CHAIRPERSON: How long is that going to take?

MS THABETHE: He is right next to me, I just want to speak to him quickly.  Thank you Mr Chair, I am ready to proceed with my cross-examination.
	Mr Malevu, my instructions from Mr Joshua Cele, who is sitting next to me, and he will give evidence to that effect is that he did give you the statement and you read through it.  You even requested for a copy, which he faxed to you later on, and it is going to be his evidence that you did say to him that you completed one application form with Shandu and Malevu, sorry and Mpanza, and Ziba Mpanza was the one who signed the application form?  What is your response?

SIFISO MALEVU: I think there was a misunderstanding.

MS THABETHE: What do you mean?  You were both speaking Zulu?

SIFISO MALEVU: Yes.

MS THABETHE: And both of you, that is Mr Shandu and yourself, said the same thing, that you completed one application form and by which you had intended to apply?  Where was the misunderstanding, how did you misunderstand each other?

SIFISO MALEVU: There were so many questions that he posed, that is Mr Cele and Mrs Mkhize.  I think that because of the situation of the prisons, those are the factors that contributed to such problems.  I did not say that we forwarded one application form.  All I want to explain is this, the question that was posed to us was that, it was about me filling in the form, and in my form I stated Mr Mpanza, Shandu, Nmezela and Tekozani and even in Mpanza's form, he told me about the information in his form, I think those are such questions that led to some confusion.

MR LAX: Can I just ask something?  Did you request a copy of this statement?

SIFISO MALEVU: Yes, I did that.

MR LAX: And you received a faxed copy as he says you got?

SIFISO MALEVU: I met with Mr Cele at the (indistinct), but I did not receive the copy.   I explained to him and he told me that they couldn't send the copies.  They also had a problem, but I never received that copy.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Joshua Cele will give evidence.  Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSES

MS MOHAMED: Mr Chairman, I am ready to call Mr Shandu, I am not sure if you want to take the short adjournment now.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you.  I call Mr Shandu.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shandu, what language would you prefer to use?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Zulu.

MZWAKE SHANDU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

MS MOHAMED: Ms Shandu, were you convicted for the same incident that Mr Mpanza and Mr Malevu were convicted of?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes, that is correct.

MS MOHAMED: Did you make an application for amnesty?

MZWAKE SHANDU: Yes, that is correct.

MS MOHAMED: Which incident did you apply for amnesty for?

MZWAKE SHANDU: The incident that took place in Empangeni in the wholesaler there, the robbery.

MS MOHAMED: When did you make your application for amnesty?

MZWAKE SHANDU: I cannot remember the date, but I think it was early 1997.

MS MOHAMED: Where were you, sorry which prison were you being detained at this time?