Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

MR POTGIETER: Thank you Mr Sandi.  Were you stationed at the complex of the defence force or were you out in the field?
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DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: I was stationed at the complex Mr Chairman.

MR POTGIETER: And were you part of the relaying of the order to fire?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Yes I was part of that Mr Chairman.  Can I give you more detail on that?

MR POTGIETER: Ja please.

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: When the crowd moved in there were factions, if I can call it that of the crowd running all over, going there, coming back, going there, it was chaos.  The noise was such that I couldn't hear the people talking next to me.  It was terrible.  When the crowd ran through the stadium they got out of line of sight from me.  Soon afterwards the operational commander, Colonel Nkosana shouted to me on the radio and said, "they are shooting at us, they are shooting at us", and I said to him "are you sure that they are shooting at you?"  So there was a quiet period again.  And then he came back in a panicky voice and he said "they are shooting at us, they are shooting at us, they are going to kill us."  And I said "are you sure", he said "yes they are shooting at us".  I relayed that information to the then CDF commander.

MR POTGIETER: To General Olshig?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Yes.  I could not determine from where I was standing, because of the noise and the chaos that took place, I could not determine whether it was taking place or not and I had solely to rely on the commander on the ground.

MR POTGIETER: And did General Olshig then pass the order back to you and said well let them open fire?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: The order came back to fire, I think implicating using minimum force at first.
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MR POTGIETER: And you relayed that to the operational ...(intervention)

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: I relayed that to Colonel Nkosana.

MR POTGIETER: Right.

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Which I had instructions beforehand that only such force must be used as is necessary to avoid loss of life.

MR POTGIETER: And so the order you gave was simply just to open fire, you didn't qualify it in any way, that was your understanding already?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Sir the situation was so chaotic and intense and the tone of the operational commander's voice was such a panic, I cannot describe it to you, and he had training, he was a senior commander, and he had training in that, and the command to fire doesn't mean everybody just starts firing.

MR POTGIETER: But factually you simply just relayed an order to open fire?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: I just relayed the order, there was no time to explain.

MR POTGIETER: Okay.  Any other questions?  Do you want to finish off, okay Mr Sandi.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr van der Bank as you have said rumours are rumours, one can never know if what is being said is true, do you perhaps have an idea as to where these rumours were emanating from?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Mr Chairman I am not completely au fait with the intelligence picture and with due respect Sir I think Colonel Chris Nel will have a much more detailed explanation of that.  I cannot answer that in detail.  I would like to but I cannot.
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MR SANDI: Are you aware if there were any such rumours or rumours of any kind coming from what was called the International Research Unit?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Mr Chairman I think the International Research Unit, I know about it, didn't exist at that time anymore.  I can't remember if they still existed.  I really can't remember.

MR SANDI: Do you have ...(intervention)

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Mr Chairman, I am sorry Sir, can I just say here also, that we had nothing to do with that unit, they directly reported to the Chairman of the State.

MR SANDI: You say at the time of the tragedy the International Researchers Ciskei Intelligence Service did not exist any longer, do you mean to say that they had existed before?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Sir I can't remember.  I have read about International Research in the Daily Despatch, that's where I've read it.

MR SANDI: In your experience, whilst you were working as a servant of the Ciskei military force, did you at any stage come across this body or any person who is said to belong to such a body?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Sir at the time that I knew them I can't remember the exact name, they were Ciskei Intelligence or whatever, as I said those people directly reported to the chairman of Ciskei.

MR SANDI: Would you be able to give some light on their activities, what generally were they doing in the Ciskei?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Mr Chairman I can't, I can't.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr van der Bank, thank you Mr Chairman.
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DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Mr Chairman can I just say ...(intervention)

MR POTGIETER: Certainly.

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: I have not prepared a typed statement, but here it is, I have met, and this is the first time that this is publicly known, I have met with the ANC Youth League in Alice in a secret meeting being the Deputy Commander, contradicting all orders and expectations prior to the march, trying, and I didn't want to say this, trying to solve the things on our levels.  If that came to being whilst me being there I would have surely lost my job.

MR POTGIETER: Did you reach an understanding in that discussion?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Yes, yes, we did reach an understanding on that level that we discussed it and we said please let there not be any violations anymore, we are all people.

MR POTGIETER: Are you presently retired?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Yes I am presently retired.  I was retired on medical grounds.

MR POTGIETER: The International Researchers, will Colonel Chris Nel be able to deal with that?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Sir I cannot answer on his behalf but I presume that he will most probably be able to give you more information than I can.

MR POTGIETER: I understand.  Thank you very much.  I just want to check are there any other questions.  Dr Ramashala.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: General I am going to refer to the Goldstone Report, and I will read portions of them and ask you if you agree or not and what your thinking is, is that all right?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Yes please.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: I'd like to refer to a statement, a
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conclusion and I quote,
"The probability remains that there was no shooting from the demonstrators and that the version of the CDF is false or at best highly exaggerated".
what do you think?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: I've heard that, thank you.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Do you agree with that statement?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: No, no, Mr Chairman I've said that I had to, Doctor I had to completely rely on the operational field commanders' integrity.  There was no physical way in determining, I wish I could have, I really wish I could have.  There was no way in determining whether it was so or not.  I had to rely on his word, he's a senior officer.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: So if he reported to you that there was shooting from the crowd you had to rely on him?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: I had to rely on him.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: The next statement,
"The Commission noted that in order to prevent demonstrators leaving the stadium there should have been a visible and strong show of force there.   For the CDF commanders to claim as they did, that they were unaware of the gap in the fence is highly negligent and unprofessional to a startling degree".