Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-15

CHAIRPERSON: That is the first place where the vehicle was parked before the button which activated the bomb, that was pointed out.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it was 42 paces that you paced, Mr du Plessis.

MR WILLIAMS: Was that in fact the place where you parked?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Definitely.  That was the place, I recall it because of the turn that I testified, we turned to the left, because of which the parking around and the hall was to the right and to the rear, so the position that I pointed out yesterday where we parked, close to the parking area when the bomb was detonated, is one hundred percent correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Now your earlier testimony is that it was a dark night that night, not so?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR WILLIAMS: When you were parked 30 metres from the building, could you see the faces of the people that was in the parking lot?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Why is that, is it because it was too dark or why?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.  And I mean none of those persons were known to me.

MR WILLIAMS: I know that you don't know the people, but could you see the ...

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I did not see you.  If you want to ask me that, I cannot recognise any person or remember what those persons looked like.

MR WILLIAMS: I am not asking that question, what I am asking is, could you see the faces of the people?  I am not asking whether you are able to remember them, but could you see for example whether it is a young person, whether it is an old person?  Whether it is a male or female, you testified that you didn't see any females there?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I can recall one person who was light of complexion, who was pointed out to me, who was a youngish person, also in the early 20's.  That is all that I can recall.

MR WILLIAMS: Now if you are saying that Gakkie pointed out the people to you, in other words Gakkie mentioned "this is Chris Ferndale, this is Peter Williams", it must have been sufficiently light to enable Gakkie to identify the people under those circumstances, not so?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: He identified the persons to me, certain persons.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, but can we assume that if it was very dark, then you would have not been able to identify the people?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I think, I could not identify the persons, but I believe that because some of those persons were known to him, it was easier to him to do that identification.

MR WILLIAMS: So it was sufficiently light for him to see at least the faces, not so?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Possibly.

MR WILLIAMS: To enable him to identify them, of course?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Probably, he did identify persons to me.  How he did it, you must ask him.

MR WILLIAMS: What I am trying to ascertain, the two of you were in the same car, you were the same distance from the building.  If Gakkie could see people's faces, then - I am not asking whether you can remember the faces or anything of that sort, but just whether the lighting was sufficient to enable him to identify people?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: What Gakkie saw, I believe I saw.

MR WILLIAMS: Now, can you recall whether the group that you saw, whether they were young people, you expected a group in their mid-20's or in their 20's or early 20's, not so?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you recall whether this group of people were in fact a group of youngsters, people in their 20's?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR WILLIAMS: And you have already testified that you saw five people leaving the premises?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Approximately.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something.  Earlier you said, were the names called out, and you said some of the names were called out.  Were there, approximately five names were mentioned to you, is that right?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so Chairperson.  Five persons were identified to me who were in the parking area, while they were standing there, talking, and some of them went to their vehicles.

MR LAX: Now, those are the same five people whose names were mentioned to you when Isgak came back from the hall?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR LAX: So there were no additional names that were mentioned to you by Isgak, besides those five individuals?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, not that I can recall.

MR LAX: And in addition to those five, approximately how many others came out of the hall?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, it was only them, it was a very small group.  I did not see any of those persons go back into the hall, and my observation was that all the persons who came out there into the parking area, climbed into vehicles and then left the parking area.

MR LAX: So, you see the point I am trying to ascertain is this, there were no more than the people whose names were mentioned?  In other words there was nobody there whose name wasn't identified to you as Person X or Person Y who came out of the hall, as far as you could see?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I accepted, I don't know whether this will answer your question, I accepted that the persons who came out into the parking area, were all the persons who attended the meeting, and those persons left the premises, that is what I accepted.  I do not know whether there were any other persons, I do not know ...

MR LAX: You are misunderstanding me.    Let me explain it, the people who were identified there by Gakkie, were the same persons who were once again identified by him when they came out?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR LAX: Except for the persons whose names were mentioned, there were no other persons who came out, that is what I am trying to determine?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It is difficult for me to say Chairperson, that Gakkie came back and gave me the following five, six or five names of persons who attended the meeting and then he identified exactly those five or six persons to me.  He identified persons to me, but I cannot tell you that it was exactly those five or six persons.

MR LAX: You see my problem, if you would allow me to speak in English again, is I am not particularly worried about the precise number, what I am more worried about is the actual people who came out, were named to you and in your head, you mentally checked, "yes, that name, that name", these all corresponded to the names of the people you had been told, were already present in the hall by Gakkie when he came back to the car?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR LAX: So that at the time everyone had left the hall according to your mind, you had ticked them off and there were no unidentified people is what I am trying to say, I am not worried about exactly how many, it might have been eight, it might have been five, that is neither here nor there.
	I am trying to understand how your mind worked?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I understand the question.  No, there were no unidentified persons at that stage about whom I had a question.  For example I did not tell myself "Mr X did not come out yet", something like that.  If that answers your question.

MR LAX: Yes, and the other aspect of my question is so that all the people that came out of the hall and then spoke and then got into their cars and left, were people who were named, there were no unnamed people there?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.

MR LAX: That was really the thrust of what I was trying to get at.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams?

MR WILLIAMS: And the purpose for that was obviously because, according to your testimony, you wanted to make sure that none of these people were killed?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR WILLIAMS: Now, let's go further down.  You say
"... I then told Isgak to drive around the block, so that I could activate the mine."
	Can we accept that that is the road that runs in a small circle, circular area that the Chairperson referred to earlier?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.
MR WILLIAMS
"... The mine was then activated and went off."
	Is your testimony that you were somewhere in the proximity of that circular area when the bomb was detonated?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.