Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

GEN NEETHLING: Not at all.  During my time it was only tested, I have the papers that I can show you.  It was approved by the Head of the Defence Force by the Minister of  Police to say, go ahead, do your tests.  We did tests on our own people, on two occasions.  I was part of it each time.  I went through all the suffering to be able to say, we are satisfied, these things are 100%.  Thereafter it went to the Defence Force, Quartermaster of the Defence Force, because you cannot use anything that hasn't been approved by him.  There it was approved that manufacturing could take place of that grenade, and it was known by a code number.  Only the chap who was the operator says that, I'm going to use it, and then they would evaluate the effect thereof.  They used it on two occasions which I know, and they said that they had never yet used so little smoke and had such success.

MR VALLY: ...(inaudible) it was approved for anti-riot control within South Africa?

GEN NEETHLING: As far as I know, the Quartermaster-General gave the Police permission, and I do not know how many of them were made, because he himself also took of them, but Swartklip can give us that information.  On two occasions we were given grenades, and we used them, but I do not know if they were made after this again.  I don't know what the reason could be, whether it was the ending of the project, I don't know, but CR gas was only used on two occasions, operationally,

MR VALLY: What I want to put to you is, and we have submitted that document, Mr Chair, it was attached to the affidavit of, I believe, of Mr Enslin, showing the production.

GEN NEETHLING: Yes, Mr Enslin Smit of Swartklip, yes.

MR VALLY: It was given to you, I believe, not to you Gen Neethling, but to your legal team.

CHAIRPERSON: I think, Mr Vally, there's a difference of opinion, I don't think the annexure was there by everybody else's.

MR VALLY: The annexure was there, Mr Chairperson, but we said that that would not be released to the public for reasons of proliferation, but it is there.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Production quantities,

MR VALLY: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think it was.

MR VALLY: I put it to you that Dr Koekemoer told us this hearing that he would not have approved, and he was the person at Delta G responsible for the manufacture, that he did not believe and would not have approved of CR gas being used within South Africa.  He had no problems with it being used outside, but within South Africa, because of the toxic effect it had on the environment, because it stays in the environment for a period of at least, I believe he said 17 years.

CHAIRPERSON: Five years.

MR VALLY: Is it five years.

CHAIRPERSON: Minimum five years, yes.

MR VALLY: I beg your pardon, a minimum of five years.  Now, you say that this was approved to be used as an anti-riot measure when it has this effect on the environment and that made toxic the environment for at least five years?

GEN NEETHLING: Mr Chairman, with all respect, I do not want to differ with Mr Koekemoer's opinion, but I do want to say that I think Mr Koekemoer doesn't know much about this.  He has not yet walked through the smoke of a grenade, but he made the active ingredient of CR gas.  What happened to it thereafter and what the smoke looks like and what the concentration thereof is on the environment, Dr Koekemoer knows nothing about that.  Point no 2, the information that Dr Koekemoer received about CR is what he got from me, from no-one else, because it doesn't just lie there, you have to search for it, your colleagues abroad, you don't just obtain it very easily, and I would tell you this, that I had no concern whatsoever that there could possibly be traces of CR in the environment after I had thrown a CR or a teargas grenade containing CR gas.  It would not hurt anybody, it wouldn't make a frog sing, nothing, because the environmentalists are very concerned about something they do not know anything about, and I want to tell you that we saturated areas with CR in Malierskop where a week later we operated, and nobody even complained of an itch, and I want to tell you this, while it is active and it chases you around, so in the end you do not know where to touch and where not to scratch.  There is no area, not Malierskop or any other place where we heard afterwards that we had made a mess because the environment is polluted.

MR VALLY: Unlike CS, if you wash your face, you are actually re-activating its effect on you.

GEN NEETHLING: The reason for that, Mr Chairman, is very easy to explain.  First of all, CR is much more potent in its efficiency in minuter quantities than CS.  Secondly, because it is also lipid soluble, in other words, it dissolves in fats of your skin, it is less soluble that CS, which will disappear, you can wash it with water.  Then, when you put water on again, you re-activate the feeling, you know what I mean, that means getting an itch again.  But that disappears, I mean, I've went through it myself.  Mr Koekemoer may have felt CR while he was making it, I'm quite sure he did, so he knows, when he went home at night, he would be itching like crazy, and I tell you now, after walking through that CR gas that we produced in the grenade that was approved by the Quartermaster-General from the Defence Force, there was no ill-effects afterwards.  The next day I was quite happy, and I'm one that if it wasn't, I would have said, wait, that's not right, let's formulate again.

MR VALLY: And that wasn't the case.  Mr Chair, I'm trying to rush, but bear in mind that Gen Neethling has got a lot to say.

GEN NEETHLING: When you're asking me I have to answer you, sir.

MR VALLY: Sure, as long as, with respect ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Could I just go on.  Do you know anything about the biological, chemical biological ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally, can you, Mr Arendse,

NORMAN ARENDSE: Can I also just add that not only is Gen Neethling saying far too much that what he's asked to say, there's also a lot of detail which is beginning to concern us, which is quite unnecessary and irrelevant to the enquiry.

CHAIRPERSON: If at any time there is a concern that he is doing so, you must please indicate the onus of it, and if it will facilitate your task for Mr Kennedy or anybody from your clients to sit next to you so that you can quickly intervene, then appropriate arrangements should be made for you to sit next to him.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes, I don't think it's appropriate for me to interject at every term.  There's in fact a number of things which we've picked up throughout the course of Gen Neethling's  evidence thus far which concerns us, but it's just something I'm registering at this point, and that's all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Would you say that your knowledge of the Chemical and Biological Warfare project only extended as far as production of teargas and considering using dagga, LSD and mandrax in teargas, as well as the dog breeding programme, or did you know more than that?

GEN NEETHLING: Mr Chairman, that is a question that I cannot just say yes or no.  Let me tell you what I know, that's easier.  What I do know is that Delta G had a capability to make anything, no matter what.  They had a synthetic ability which is the dream of every synthetic chemist, but the biological side, I've heard about this, very little, and I knew that there were biological peptides which were synthesised or they were trying to synthesise.  There were agents such as snake-bite and biological no, not at all ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: I want you to look at document TRC 14, your attorney has it.  I'm referring to page, stamped no 4616.