Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I discovered this as I was told by Captain Langeni that some members have been arrested and that the one that was still at large was Zena Mkhize.
	They then asked me to go and speak to him because they thought we should take him into hiding.  That is exactly what I did.  He was at Nqutu if I am not mistaken, at Nqutu Police station.
	I then told him that he was being wanted and we thought that he should go into hiding, but you are wanted at the Headquarters so that we can discuss this issue as to what we are going to do about this situation.
	Indeed we went to Ulundi, myself and him, there was Captain Langeni and M.R. Mzimela and he then said I think it will be better if you were to take me home because I don't find the idea of going into hiding appropriate because how long is it going to take for me to be in hiding.  
	They then said Mzimela was also present, even though you can be arrested, we will try some means so that this case must just disappear.  We will also try to get hold of a lawyer to represent you.
	Indeed I took him to his home at Mpolweni, that is where I left him.

MR STUART: Did he subsequently hand himself in?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I think so because he was arrested at the station where he was working.

MR STUART: What was done about arranging legal representation and assistance for him?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I found difficulties because no one wanted to get closer to me and closer to them, and I concluded that I should get closer and on getting closer, I went to Mzimela and M.Z. Khumalo, pleading with them to assist.
	They pushed me from pillar to post, I ended up loosing courage.

MR STUART: Did you come to explain this to Zena Mkhize?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I went to them at  Ntinzeni and told them that as far as I am concerned, for you to get out of this mess, try to speak to Goldstone and explain everything as it is.
	Now that we heard rumours about possible reconciliation, you too, should apply so that you can get amnesty, but you will not get amnesty if you haven't spoken first, divulging what you were doing, what acts you were engaged in so that I, myself if I were the one who sent you, you should also say that.

MR STUART: When it was subsequently reported in the Goldstone Commission, published, the information that Zena Mkhize and others had given, what was the attitude that you and the other people you were working with, took?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I was called one day, there was Gideon Zulu and M.R. Mzimela and Captain Langeni.  On entering M.R. Mzimela said do you see this statement, this is the statement that was made by Zena at the Goldstone Commission - what do you know about this statement?
	I got shocked, I got a fright that they were now lending me into trouble, because I was the one who said, because now that I have realised that there is no way that they can escape this problem, apart from committing themselves to the Goldstone Commission, there is no way they can get out of this mess and I too pretended not to know what had become of the situation and them in particular.
	But I also suspected that there must be information that I had already said to them, that they should talk.  That is where I stood.

MR STUART: Was it the case that you used to attend meetings of the Central Committee of the IFP?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.  It is true, I used to attend such meetings as a person who was working at the IFP Headquarters at Ulundi.
	All members who were working at the Headquarters, used to attend as staff of the IFP Headquarters.  I too, being present, used to attend in that capacity.

MR STUART: Did it come about that you were then expelled?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, it did.  It happened that I was expelled in one of the Central Committee meetings.  Mr Duma came and he was the Head of the Department.  He called me from the meeting and he said Mhlandulu follow me and he went into his office.
	On entering the office, he was reading a book and he said what happened, are you in conflict with the king?  He was referring to the IFP President, and I said why, and he said the letter actually that I am reading here, indicates that I should inform you that as of today, you should never, ever be seen in the Central Committee meetings.

MR STUART: Was it made clear to you why that was so?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I was suspecting because there were already several rumours going around.  Rumours being spread by the very same M.Z. Khumalo to the effect that he has defected, so that as you see him, the very same car he is driving, was bought by the ANC, those were blatant lies.  I still insist those were lies.
	I bought the car myself.  No organisation bought me the car, and although expelled, I concluded that the very same rumour had got into the, within earshot of the king that I was working for the ANC.

MR STUART: Did you subsequently come to have discussions with the ANC?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, and no because there was no time where we sat down because things were so swift.  I myself was fleeing, and therefore I cannot say there was a situation where we sat down, having enough time to discuss with the ANC as to how I find the ANC myself, and what I am intending to do.
	I saw them now that I am under this protection programme.

MR MOTATA: May I just come in here Mr Stuart.  Mr Luthuli, I appreciate your answer when this question was posed to you.  You said you could say yes or no.  Let's suppose there was no formal meeting, did you come into contact with ANC people prior to you being put under this protection scheme?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR MOTATA: So the answer to the question asked by your counsel did you ever have discussions with the ANC, is no longer yes or no, it is a pure no?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR MOTATA: Thank you.

MR STUART: Mr Luthuli, I am not sure that you are understanding the time period that I am addressing.
	Will you turn to your application, you have it before you.  Do you have a copy of the application before you?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR STUART: Will you turn to page 324.  Is yours numbered with those numbers?  It will be page 114 of the affidavit, page 324 of the papers  before this hearing.

MR MOTATA: And it would have paragraph 39.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I have located the page.

MR STUART: You will see there that you have set out some discussions you had with someone called Mohadla and questions of organising for a funeral.  That was Kaye's funeral and then in 39.8 you say a series of meetings took place between Mohadla and I and as a result thereof, I had a meeting with Jacob Zuma.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR STUART: Now, will you explain that in the light of the answer you gave to the Committee member, Adv Motata a few minutes back?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: This Kaye, that is Magahle, he was already an Investigating Officer.  Kaye was actually in love with my nephew and he was also a member of the IFP branch in Mpumalanga.
	He was very close to my family and I personally.  Therefore Magahle used to use Kaye who was in love with my niece so that he could get information about me.  And then Magahle would also say that Kaye is an ANC member and he would want me to meet him.
	I could not have met Magahle, I couldn't meet him and the only time I met him, was when we were making funeral arrangements, that is my nephew's funeral.  That is where I had a discussion with Magahle.
	With reference to Jacob Zuma, there is no secret that I had a discussion with him.  The IFP President himself knew about this, because I told him that Jacob Zuma wanted to see me.
	Therefore there was no secret when I met Zuma because he knew already that I was going to see him.  That was before everything else happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you say that was before the time that you were expelled?