Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-15

JUDGE WILSON: Well, I have one faxed transmission.  Can I see what you have got?  Have you got a copy of the book itself, a hand-written, I have a typed copy.  We will keep all three.  That shows that they were there for three months, Menera and that Phelane was there for about two months.

UNKNOWN: That is correct, M'Lord.

JUDGE WILSON: That will be filed with them.

UNKNOWN: Now, M'Lord, before we adjourn again, regarding the application of Ngo. We have been told at the beginning of this hearing that there are three files on Mr Ngo.  Only one has been made available to my learned friends for the State, whether they had it or not.  And M'Lord, we would like to say that as representatives of Ngo, we would request that the offices of the TRC investigate the matter regarding the remainder of the two files for as we understand it, we are told that on the file that the State has at the moment, they are - there is no indication of why Mr Ngo was suspended and that he was - and that it only says that he was suspended, and that the reason be contained in another file.  We would wish then that this fact be verified.

JUDGE WILSON: You said the file that the State has?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Who do you mean?

UNKNOWN: I mean my two learned friends here.

JUDGE WILSON: He is appearing for certain police officers not for the State.  This is not a prosecution. I understand what you mean though and I think if there are documents available they should be made available.

UNKNOWN: There is a close association, M'Lord, between them and the State.  That's why I say so.  M'Lord, may I say that, also add that they are in possession of a file relating to Mr Ngo.  Apparently their attitude is that the file has been made available to them and we do not have access to the file as such, (indistinct) and that presents a difficulty for us because we would like to have insight into the contents of the file.  I would like to get a direction from you, I am making submissions, Mr Chair, I would like a directive from you, Mr Chair ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: I would like you to apply to the Amnesty Committee in writing and state exactly what files do you want and we will issue a subpoena in order to get those files, if you can't get it otherwise.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman ...

ADV DE JAGER: But we are taking about an hour to negotiate an adjournment here, even an adjournment today. I don't know whether we will ever finish cases going on like this.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, may I say that there has already been a directive emanating from the Chairperson on the last hearing, that files relating to Mr Ngo must be made available to us.  Now only one file has come to hand and my learned friends for the Police are keeping them as if it were their property, and I am asking for a directive now from the Chair.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Let's just find out.  Mr Visser, is it correct that you are in possession of a certain file and is it correct that you deny the applicant's legal representatives access to that file?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, it is more than incorrect, it is a falsehood.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So they can access the file if they want to?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, the position is simply this.  We have no access to official files, we don't appear for the State. I don't know which State reference is made to, the present or the past, but the fact is we appear for no state, we appear for individuals. We have applied through the normal channels to headquarters in Pretoria.  My attorney has.  He has been presented with one file, which we have got here, which we made available to my learned friend.  He had it in his possession.  He looked through it. It doesn't take more than half-an-hour to look through that file. He had it.  That is the only file we have got. That file was given to us on the basis of Mr Wagenaar retaining custody of that file. In fact, my first question was, can we make the file available to the Committee, and there is some sort of a problem even with that. We haven't got access to these files, Mr Chairman, we have no right to the access to these files.  We would prefer it if you would make enquiries as to whether there are other files of Mr Ngo, because we would dearly like to say the contents of those files ourselves.  We have not been retaining anything or keeping it away from my learned friend. It is a falsehood to make such an allegation.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So at any rate then, it takes us back to what Adv De Jager has said, Mr Memani.  Any file that you would like to have access to, would you formulate your request in writing because we wouldn't like to go and try to think exactly what you wanted to have, and only to find out we misrepresented you. I think you should formulate your request in writing and then submit that to us and then we will take it further from there, and see how we could assist you.

JUDGE WILSON: I would suggest in this regard that you consult with your client, who would be in a better position than we are, to give you details of what type of files are kept by the police force.  The problem is, if we merely say a certain type of file. We may give it the wrong name and it will not be provided. So if you will get the names or descriptions from your client and then make a written application.  We can accordingly make an order, calling on someone to produce that.

ADV DE JAGER: May we in addition to that, Mr Chairman, we will undertake again, to make enquiries and if any fruit is - if that is with fruitfulness, then of course, we will provide you with those files, if we - we were told there were three files.  We were only given one.

JUDGE WILSON: Where would these files be?

MR VISSER: Probably at headquarters, but it may be that some of them may be here, but we will make further enquiries, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: If you would notice the office as soon as you have received any further information and notify the applicant's attorneys.

MR VISSER: If we receive anything we will notify the office of the Commission immediately, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, I have nothing to add on Ngo.  Mr Chairperson, then this means as far as Menera is concerned, that Menera has been concluded and that we may now all make submissions within the time specified.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

UNKNOWN: As the Chair pleases.

JUDGE WILSON: There is no other information that the evidence-leader intends to present here?

MS THABETHA: No.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, I beg your pardon.  As far as Ngo is concerned, there was also a directive that the investigating section of the TRC should try and locate the medical file relating to the time when Mr Ngo escaped from custody and nothing was done about his escape.

JUDGE WILSON: (Indistinct).

MS THABETHA: Not that I know of, no.

JUDGE WILSON: If such a directive was given, will you refer the evidence leader to where it is to be found, and will you then please ensure that our investigators carry out the instructions given.
	Does the applicant want to say something now?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes.  I do not know which date are we going to be called in.  I am requesting the Committee to ask from the Minister to be transferred, not to work where I am presently working. I can be transferred to any other place.

JUDGE WILSON: I am afraid that is not part of our function.  You can ask your legal adviser to make representations to the Minister on your behalf, but it is certainly not part of our function.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS