Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-29

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Well, certainly I don't think there would have been reproach as such, because as far as I am concerned, the indication that he had, the information that he had, was that there were Security Force personnel that frequented that bar, etc.  Unless one expected him to take the Security Force personnel, put them there and then strike at them, you know, he may not have been able to control all the circumstances at that point in time.  As far as I am concerned, we would have discussed it, but I do not see why the whole question of reproach is raised at all.  As far as we are concerned, the ANC accepts responsibility for it.  It was seen  as something which was aimed at Security Force personnel and that the ANC takes responsibility for.

ADV PRIOR: If you took Security personnel out of the equation, then the entire support of that operation, would not be there, is that correct?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Then there wouldn't have been an operation because it was aimed at Security Force personnel.

ADV PRIOR: On the information that you were given?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Correct.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, thank you very much.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Berger, do you have any re-examination?

MR BERGER: Very briefly, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Ismail, you spoke about Security Force personnel being targeted whether on duty or off duty and you also spoke about the question of whether persons were on active service or not on active service.  I understood that there was a distinction between active service, non-active service and on duty, off duty.  Could you just elaborate on that?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Soldiers in the afternoon, are generally to be taken to be off duty policemen, however they can be called on duty at any point in time, etc.  and therefore they become active immediately.  As to the other part, dealing with people that were no longer service as such or weren't on call-up, but if they then had returned to their normal civilian occupations, they were then seen as being not active at that time.

MR BERGER: So somebody who was off duty, was nevertheless still active?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Was active and could be called on duty within minutes.

MR BERGER: Mr Richard yesterday put a proposition to you which you, because the proceedings ended at that point, never had an opportunity to respond to and he put to you that the ANC did not target Security Forces, in fact he said the ANC conducted a campaign of terror, what is your response to that?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson, the ANC never sought to conduct a campaign of terror.  The inference at that time was also made that we basically were striking at whites.  I would like to put it to this Committee that in fact, if you looked at the first Security Force casualties, they were in fact black policemen.   If you looked at the attacks in the Soweto area, at the Protea, Morocco police stations,  they were black policemen.   And any inference that these were aimed at whites, is rejected because through the struggle, all those that were part of the apartheid system, be they black or white, were targeted.  This was never a target, an attack against whites.  We never fought a racist war.  We fought to undo racism.  We sought to fight as best we could because we believed we fought a just war, we believed in justice, we tried to limit casualties and if we wanted to go on an indiscriminate campaign of terror, we would not have gone through so much pain in going for targets, trying to get inside of the targets, it is very easy.  It takes a few, it takes a pistol or two to kill so many.  We never did that.  We weren't Barend Strydoms that simply stood there and went pah-pah-pah at so many people.   That would have been dead easy.  We never sought to do that.  We actually thought about the targets at the end of the day, we knew that we had to get to a point, we had to bring the white racist regime to their senses and I believe it is because of the mature policies of the ANC that we have the kind of system in the country today, that we have.  You cannot simply make a switch from what people would like to portray the ANC as, and then to have a kind of government, a leadership in this country today, which upholds human rights to the extent that it does.  The racist regime would never have been able to make that transformation.  At all times they sought to hold onto the power and privilege and I think this kind of suggestion that we were just out on a campaign of terror, is rejected with contempt.  South Africa today is still able to continue and to grow, it is beginning to pull together as a united country, because of the maturity, because of the vision and insight of the ANC leadership.  President Mandela previously had said you know, we stretch out the hand of friendship to all but he said he had a problem, that very few whites, actually took that outstretched hand.  We talk of reconciliation, would a people that were bent on a campaign of terror, stretch out their hand so shortly after what the majority population had suffered for centuries, would they do that?  I would say no.

MR BERGER: Mr Ismail, I have one last question.   Mr Prior said that, or suggested that it wouldn't have been politically expedient for the ANC to have publicly censored Mr McBride's unit's actions and in particular the bomb outside the Why Not bar.  Did any structure of the ANC or MK ever raise with you any problems that the ANC or MK had, I am not talking about publicly, I am talking about in the structures of the ANC or MK, any problems that they had with Mr McBride's unit's operations?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: No.  They did not.

MR BERGER: Did you ever raise any problems with, that you, did you ever raise any problems within the structures of the ANC or MK with regard to the operations of Mr McBride's unit?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: No, I did not.

MR BERGER: Did you ever have any such problems?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: No, I did not.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Berger.  Judge Pillay, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the applicant?

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Ismail, tell me, can you remember how far apart was the Kabwe decision in respect of civilian casualties and the unfortunate attack on Justice Albie Sacks in Maputo?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I am sorry, I don't recall the nature of the attack on Justice Albie Sacks.

JUDGE PILLAY: Yes.  Some other matter that concerns me and we travel the country, I was wondering if you were able to add to this debate that we have within the Commission.  It is the question of whether it is necessary to desensitise operatives, or former operatives from what they have been taught and what they are going through and what they have gone through and how to handle it?  I ask that especially because there is what I term a Vietnam syndrome that seems to be developing?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Post traumatic stress syndrome?

JUDGE PILLAY: Yes, that type of thing, what is your view on that?