Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-26

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: No.  He could have become an IFP member and stay in the area, but what was wrong was for him to be involved in these attacks.
	There were other people who had been Inkatha members, but who were not active in the Inkatha activities, and who are still around today.
	In addition, those people were just a few.

MS THABETE: No further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete.  Do you have any re-examination Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Yes Mr Chairman.  Mgunezi, was he a friend of the deceased?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: I am not sure, but from the way that they were talking, it seemed like they were friendly.  We all grew up in the same area, so we knew each other well.

MR NGUBANE: Did the fact that the deceased admitted in killing one of you, confirm his story that he would be involved in further killings of the people in the area?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes, it could have happened because he also mentioned that there were other planned attacks which made it obvious that he would have been involved too, in those attacks.
	There was just one route in the area.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Cele, immediately the deceased got into the car, did the car speed away with him?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: It did not speed away, it just left.   He did not even enquire what was going on or where he was being taken.  We just talked.

MR SIBANYONI: You said you asked him in a manner in which made him free to talk and admit.  What manner is that?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: We asked him that we had heard that he had joined Inkatha and he said yes, I had.
	We asked him why and he said he liked Inkatha and when we enquired about the ANC, he also responded.  We were just talking to him in a proper way, in a decent way although I cannot remember what other questions we put to him, but we were just talking.

MR SIBANYONI: If you say by merely joining the IFP, he would not be killed, the only problem was his participation or involvement in the killing of Sandile, will I be correct to say he was killed because he killed Sandile?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: It is now twofold.

MR SIBANYONI: What is that two?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: He was an IFP member and he was involved in killing someone, therefore it meant that he was an IFP member involved in killing people, and those were the people that we were opposed to.
	We did not have a problem with somebody who was an IFP member, but if you were an IFP member and involved in killing people, you were an enemy.

MR SIBANYONI: The inference that I am drawing there is that if he didn't participate in the attack, in the killing, he would not have been killed, therefore the killing was a revenge killing.  What would you say?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes, it was.

MR SIBANYONI: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Lax, do you have any questions?

MR LAX: Just one aspect Chairperson.  There was something earlier on about, you were talking about his wife digging up cartridge cases from the killing of Sandile.  What was that all about?  Just explain to us, was that part of your information or where did that come in, you spoke about that earlier?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: I explained before that a certain Sandile had died in the area, and it was later discovered that the deceased had been involved.
	His wife and his mother came to us, or his mother came to us and told us that the deceased's wife had come to their home and had been sent by Sandile, to dig up cartridges from the bullets used to kill Sandile.
	We told them that we would not discuss the matter on the road, but we would come to their home and discuss this matter with them, and therefore we went to their home and they told us the entire story.
	When we confronted the deceased with this story, he also admitted that he was indeed involved in the killing of Sandile.  Moreover, when we went to Sandile's home, about six o'clock, we could not find any cartridges on the ground, whereas gunshots had been fired several times.

MR LAX: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cele, just for my own record, these people that you were with, your two comrades, what were their names, I have heard them, but I just want to get their correct spelling, that you were with when you met the deceased and took part in the killing of the deceased with yourself?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: It was Msupa Hlengwa and Mzwandile Nzimandi.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Did you have a Commander of your Self Defence Unit?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Although it was not formal, a person who used to be in charge or who used to assist in most things, was Jili.

CHAIRPERSON: Jili?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know his first name?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Magre.

CHAIRPERSON: This decision that the three of you made, that is Msupa, Mzwandile and yourself, when you discussed it before you met the deceased and you said if he admits that he took part in the killing of Sandile, we will then kill him - was that decision just confined to the three of you or did you approach Jili and say this is what we plan to do?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: (No recording) ... but after the incident, we approached the Chairperson, who was Magubani at the time, and we told him.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can you repeat his name?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Magubani.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he the Chairperson of the local ANC branch?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know his first name?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Immanuel.

CHAIRPERSON: What was his reaction when you told him?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: I cannot remember correctly what his response was.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he upset, did he chastise you or did he compliment you on your actions, or was he completely neutral in his reaction?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: He did not reprimand us, nor did he commend us.  He just listened to what we had to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can you remember the precise date of the murder?  You say it is about June 1993, can you get any closer than that?

MR LAX: I think it is 15 July?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: I cannot remember the date correctly?

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got 15 July?

MR LAX: Our investigation report gives the date as the 15th of July 1993.  Would you argue with that?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: It could be around that same time.

MR LAX: You see, our investigators went and found the docket relating to the death of Mr Zulu and the docket number was 62-7-93.  You wouldn't deny that, would you?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: As I mentioned before, if that is what is said, then I wouldn't disagree with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cele, just finally, you said that the deceased ran into his grandmother's house.  Was anybody present at the grandmother's house, besides the four of you, that is the deceased and you and your two comrades.
	In other words, would there have been any witnesses to this slaying that took place there?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: I don't know if there were witnesses who witnessed this murder, but there were people in the house, although the light was out.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you ever arrested for this, or any of your two comrades who assisted you, were any of the three of you arrested for this crime?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: No, I was not arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you flee the area after that, or do you know any reason why you were not arrested?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: No, I have never fled the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Do you have any questions arising Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: No Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: No, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE