Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-10

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I should imagine if the interrogation took place, yes, it would have been.

ADV PRIOR: We have heard evidence in other hearings, of the manner in which terrorists were interrogated, brutal sometimes, even savage fashion, ice up the anus and electric shocks, etc, etc.  We have heard evidence like that.  I am not suggesting it happened like that, I am saying it wasn't a courteous question and answer session?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, it wouldn't have been.

ADV PRIOR: And throughout he would have been restrained, he would have been handcuffed, presumably with his hands behind his back?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: As I said, he would have been restrained, I don't know how.

ADV PRIOR: He would have been so restrained from the early morning or from part of the morning, till almost sunset, is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I imagine he was restrained all the time, yes.

ADV PRIOR: And I should imagine too he wasn't shown any courtesy or any favours, he wasn't given anything to drink or to eat?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't remember if he was given anything to eat or drink.

ADV PRIOR: Because you were going to execute him later, that was clear, so you wouldn't be showing him any courtesy, would you?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: As I said, I don't recall any courtesy being shown to him.

ADV PRIOR: It was suggested or put to you by Mr Ngubane on behalf of the family, possibly whether he was naked when he was shot.  You say you have no recollection?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I have no recollection what he was wearing.

ADV PRIOR: Wasn't it part of the operation that you would take steps to prevent the body being identified, or identified quickly?  In other words, so that it couldn't be traced back in any way to your Unit or to the police?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: To my way of thinking, where we were was pretty isolated, and sparsely populated, so that wouldn't have happened any way Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: There will be evidence in the other events, for example in the Poshua Ndwandwe matter, when her body was exhumed or the skeletal remains, there was no indication of any clothing, in other words, there was a strong indication that she was naked when she was buried?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, I ...

ADV PRIOR: I am just putting it to you at the level, pitching at the level that in order to minimise the risk of the deceased being identified at an early stage, you would have probably stripped the body?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Possibly.  I have no recollection of stripping the body.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Rosslee, have you discussed the facts of the Bhila killing with Mr Wasserman at any stage up until now?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: About, I think it was a week ago, in consultation, we spoke about it.

ADV PRIOR: Let me ask you this question, did he ask you to assist him in remembering what had happened?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I think it was more a case of trying to assist me in what happened Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Well, I ask you that because at page 44 of the first bundle, that is the Bhila bundle, and I refer to the extract of Mr Wasserman's amnesty application, under 9(a)(iv) as to the nature and particulars of the elimination of Sipho Stanley Bhila, he said the nature and particulars of this incident are not immediately recalled to mind.  I will do the necessary search etc, and attempt to provide a full and detailed statement which will be provided at a later stage.
	Are you suggesting that he actually assisted you to remember what happened and not the other way around?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Between the two of us, we were trying to put the pieces together Mr Chairman.

ADV PRIOR: Would your decision to have carried out Taylor's order, have been different if you had been told that Bhila had placed a limpet mine at the Lamontville town offices, had it gone off, causing structural damage but no loss of life?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I believe one of the major reasons that I agreed to do this, or indeed carried this act out, was based on what I was told and the potential, what Mr Bhila was potentially going to carry on with.
	I don't know, it is a difficult question to ask now, in today's climate.

ADV PRIOR: All right.  The fact that he was linked or what the information was, he was linked with the Amanzimtoti bomb on your allegation that Taylor told you that.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is the way I understood it.

ADV PRIOR: Your version that Taylor told you that.  Did that, the fact that people were killed, white people were killed, shoppers were killed, children, did that have any bearing on your decision to go along and eliminate Bhila?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I would say it contributed to it.  That, the information that I received at that point about that, his probable future activities, most definitely had an impact.

ADV PRIOR: This being your first killing of an unarmed person, we heard evidence that you and McCarter worked closely together, you were part of the same Unit?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Did you speak to McCarter about Taylor's request/order?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't recall having discussed it with him.  I don't remember, in all probability between the two of us, we would have discussed the logistics if you like.

ADV PRIOR: I mean it was something that you hadn't done before.  You see, why I am asking you this, I mean Mr Wasserman was available, Taylor's own Unit, why did he have to ask you?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I would say number one, he would have needed one of the askaris or at least one of them, to do the approach.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, no, I am talking about the killing.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I have no idea.

ADV PRIOR: Once Bhila was in your clutches, it made no difference who did the killing?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I have no idea why Major Taylor asked us to do it.

ADV PRIOR: Why didn't you say, well, get one of your own Unit to do it?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: A Sergeant saying that to a Major, number one isn't done, and I respected Major Taylor.

ADV PRIOR: McCarter said yesterday if I recall correctly, he said well, if he had refused, nothing really could have been done about that.  He may have been sidelined.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: And I would agree with that.

ADV PRIOR: Is it correct that you wanted to kill Bhila out of your own, it didn't take the order, it didn't take, because the way you put it, it was a request.

ADV PRIOR: Out of the blue, (indistinct), would you kill Bhila, take Bhila out?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, I didn't know about Mr Bhila until this request was put to us.

ADV PRIOR: The impression I got was that it was almost like an enquiry, Taylor was telling you about these people that had been acquitted and almost, when you say request, would you mind taking care of these people, it certainly wasn't a definite order in the sense that if you don't carry out the order, you would, there would be disciplinary action taken against you.  It was certainly not pitched at that level?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: To me, a request from Major Taylor and a direct order, would be virtually the same thing.

MR MALAN: May I just ask on this point again, a question, I have asked it earlier, under cross-examination by Mr Prior now, you again said that you agreed to eliminate him, and now later, you volunteered request.
	Why didn't you say then your wish is your command?  You are using language which is not cast in any military terms or any terms of an instruction, an order, something that you had to obey.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, to me as I have said, a request by a senior officer was the same thing as an order.  They asked me to do something, you do it.

MR MALAN: He wasn't asking you to do something, he was asking you whether you would do it.  Otherwise you would not agree, that is really the question.
	Why do you say I agreed?