Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: Okay, I understood you to say that you did not ask the police whether they had questioned Mrs Madikezela Mandela about your son's disappearance.

NOMSA SHABALALA: I did ask Dempsey as to whether they asked Winnie or interrogated Winnie with regard to the disappearance of our children. He said they were in the process of doing that, and I said: "It's been 9 years since our sons disappeared", and he left me without answering.

MR VALLY: At Mrs Madikezela's Section 29 in camera enquiry, she said that she had no idea who Anthony Siboniso Shabalala is. She also said that she knew nothing about the incident which you've talked about where two men came to your house to fetch Siboniso.  Do you have anything to say about this?

NOMSA SHABALALA: Winnie knows Siboniso as well as Lolo - deep down inside of her, she knows that she knows those people, because if she did not know them during this period of 9 years she should have done something.

MR VALLY: ...[inaudible] Mrs-Madikezela Mandela yourself on this issue?

NOMSA SHABALALA: No, I wouldn't have been able to go to Winnie because we were warned not to approach her - Winnie has got bodyguards, I don't have a bodyguard.

MR VALLY: ...[inaudible] member of the football club to the best of your knowledge?

NOMSA SHABALALA: Not that I was aware of, I heard it over the radio.

MR VALLY: Thank you very much, Mrs Shabalala.

NOMSA SHABALALA: Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Mrs Shabalala, let me state that the personal tragedy that has befallen you, it's one we all share with you.  Unfortunately I must make sure that this process does not produce victims of its own, and I'm going to be putting certain questions to you.
 I seem to have heard you say that when you asked Siboniso whether he knows where Lolo is, your reply in Zulu was: "Lolo had been taken by Winnie's people". Am I quoting you correctly?

NOMSA SHABALALA: Yes, that is correct, that's how you heard me.

MR SEMENYA: So that was the report which your son was given about Lolo?

NOMSA SHABALALA: My son was not there at the moment but he heard the story from me that there were people who had come who said they were from Winnie or they were Winnie's people.  I'm the one who told my son - he was not there. I told him that Winnie had taken Lolo, and Lolo had been assaulted.
 Mr Shabalala realised when time lapsed without Siboniso turning up at home and, having seen Lolo's name, he went to Lolo's place to try and find out from Lolo's father as to what had happened. That's when he heard that Lolo had already been assaulted and Siboniso was wanted also.

MR VALLY: ...[inaudible] Was the report that it is Winnie's people who took Lolo, or it is Winnie and the football team members who took Lolo?

NOMSA SHABALALA: They said Winnie and her people were there, Winnie and her people.

MR VALLY: Now, Ma'am, I must say to you that the people who it is alleged came to both your house and that of Mr Sono, were definitely not at the instance of Mrs Madikezela Mandela.

NOMSA SHABALALA: What I'm telling you is that they had been sent by Winnie because I would not be howling about Winnie's name without her approaching me or suing me and asking me as to why am I telling lies about her, because this has been going on for 9 years, not 9 days.

MR VALLY: ...[indistinct] they were sent by her?

NOMSA SHABALALA: They said that when they came, they said they were coming from Winnie or Winnie's place and after a few days I heard that Winnie had opened up a football club.

MR SEMENYA: [No sound.]

NOMSA SHABALALA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SEMENYA: How long after the 14th of November 1988 did you receive a call from Lolo - I mean from your son, sorry?

NOMSA SHABALALA: Siboniso phoned the same day, that is on the 14th, and he phoned on the 15th.

MR SEMENYA: ...[indistinct] was calling?

NOMSA SHABALALA: No, and the line got cut off whilst I was still speaking to him.

MR SEMENYA: Again in your evidence you seem to say that - in fact you stated as a fact, that, because of what was said in the media, Winnie killed these boys.

NOMSA SHABALALA: Yes, that is so.

MR SEMENYA: Winnie had killed them?

NOMSA SHABALALA: Yes, she did kill them, just like Stompie.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] she killed Stompie?

NOMSA SHABALALA: I was not there but they were within the same group. it was the football club.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] killed your son?

NOMSA SHABALALA: I wasn't there.

MR SEMENYA: You just simply hold a strong feeling that she must have, isn't that the real position?

NOMSA SHABALALA: I'm saying this because I never chased my son away. We had never had a fight.  There was absolutely no reason for him to just disappear from home for a whole 9 years - I didn't chase him away, something must have happened to him.

MR SEMENYA: But you also say is you didn't go to see Mrs Madikezela Mandela because she's got bodyguards.

NOMSA SHABALALA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SEMENYA: Has she ever threatened you, Ma'am?

NOMSA SHABALALA: Yes, I used to see her scaring other people or threatening other people, and it's the first time that I face Mrs Mandela - I'm even scared of her, even now.

MR SEMENYA: Are you able to ...[inaudible] where you saw her threaten people?

NOMSA SHABALALA: I'm scared of Winnie. there's quite a number of things that she has done.

CHAIRPERSON: I won't give this warning again. I am requesting - when I say order, I require complete silence, please. if not I will have to take drastic action.  You are disturbing this process. Please, I beg you, do note when I say, "Order", I mean Order.

MR SEMENYA: I had just asked Ma'am whether you can cite an incident where you saw Winnie threaten people?

NOMSA SHABALALA: Yes, I once saw on TV where the house was filled with blood, where people had been killed.  And I asked my HASSEN as to what we should do, and my HASSEN said he is not involved in politics, he doesn't know anything about politics and I also didn't know anything about politics, and that made us scared to approach her.   Winnie was not scared of seeing blood in her house, but I was scared by the sight, that's why I didn't go to her.  Because we didn't see Siboniso and the same fate that befell Siboniso might have possibly befallen us. Yes, that is my answer.

MR SEMENYA: Whoever purported to have been sent by Mrs Madikezela-Mandela was not correct. There was not such instruction.

NOMSA SHABALALA: I would request this Commission, if there wasn't such a person sent by Winnie, I would request Winnie to give Siboniso back to me.  I want Siboniso or his bones and remains.  If Winnie doesn't know anything - that is what she says - I also say that she knows, deep down inside of her, she knows.  I have been asking Winnie for the past 9 years as to where my son is and she used to say, whoever told me that story had fabricated it.  If that is so, then let Siboniso come back.

MR SEMENYA: ... [inaudible] Mrs Madikezela Mandela knows your son, have you ever seen them together at any point?

NOMSA SHABALALA: I never saw them together.  As I've explained to you, that the first time I knew Winnie's names was when Siboniso disappeared.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

<UNKNOWN>: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions from the panel here?

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Chairman? ... [inaudible] - the microphone won't register.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not sure that I should allow that because - but, yes, let us see what you are up to.

<UNKNOWN>: I simply have one question to ask.
 Are you aware of the application for amnesty that Mr Richardson has made?

NOMSA SHABALALA: No, I'm not aware of it.