Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-13

MR NEL: And if we have regard to Mr Taylor's application, where he differs with your application in terms of the Nxiweni matter, would you ascribe this to his bad memory because of his illness, where he says for instance that you were present?
	He says I do recall that myself and Colonel Botha were definitely present.

MR BOTHA: That is correct, that is how I testified.

MR NEL: I could put it to you that during, when he drew up the amnesty application with Adv Booyens and myself, Colonel Taylor had very bad problems with his memory and he could not remember certain things.
	There is just one thing that could give a further indication as to his memory loss.  I see on your application, on page 12 in terms of the kwaMashu 3, you say that - and it is in the second last paragraph, the last sentence - we were about a kilometre from the scene when the limpet mines exploded.  Do you confirm that?

MR BOTHA: I do yes.

MR NEL: I see Mr Taylor refers in his application in terms of, also refers to the kwaMashu 3 on page 65 and he says that a while later they returned, and the next day I heard that there had been an explosion on the railway line.
	Is that also a mistake on Colonel Taylor's side, because you would have heard the explosion?

MR BOTHA: That is not right Chairperson, he was part of the group.

MR NEL: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

MR NOLTE: Mr Chairman, Nolte on record.  It has been arranged between Mr Prior and myself, that I will follow in questioning after he has finished his cross-examination.  I have spoken to my colleagues, they don't have a problem, so with leave of the Chair, I would appreciate it if I could do that.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Mr Botha, at the start of your evidence, you referred to your background and you said that you grew up in a National Party family, a conservative family, is that correct?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And by leading that kind of evidence, did you intend to create the picture that you were so assimilated in the National Party propaganda that it should be blamed for your later acts which were dirty tricks?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, I can hear Mr Ngubane's question, but if he can speak better so that I can follow him better.

MR NGUBANE: Okay, all right.   Are you all right now?

MR BOTHA: I am okay now, thank you.

MR NGUBANE: Okay, my question was when you sketched the background of your upbringing, did you want to create the picture that you were so assimilated in this National Party teaching and upbringing to such an extent, that all these dirty acts that you did, were as a result of that upbringing?

MR BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, my evidence in chief that I grew up in a National Party house, and the National Party was in power from 1948 up until the 1994 elections, that was a long time, and yes, they played a big part later with the elimination of persons.
	If I go back to the politicians over the years, where I was a member of the Security Branch who came with rhetoric speeches as to wherever they go, we will find them, we have to defend the country at all costs.

MR NGUBANE: In spite of this upbringing, you as an individual, still had a discretion, you had a discretion not to do some of the things, is that correct?

MR BOTHA: That is correct, every person has a discretion.

MR NGUBANE: Is it correct that you were brought up in a Christian family?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And from the early age you were taught thou shalt not kill?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And as an individual, you decided to take this decision to forsake all the Christian teachings that you were taught and follow this line of killing people?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, communism was in my opinion, and that is how I was brought up, was an evil.  The ANC was an alliance of this South African Communist Party.
	It was evil.  When they committed acts of terror, they did not walk with a Bible under their arms, they sometimes pretended to be ministers when they committed acts of terror.
	I saw my deeds as justified in the execution of my task as a policeman.  Seen against the background of what happened in this country, and at all costs, I would try to stop communist power in this country.

MR NGUBANE: Do you agree with me that there was no explicit, official National Party policy that you should kill unarmed people illegally?

MR BOTHA: Two terminologies.  Illegally unarmed people, there was no National Party policy that any person could be killed.  Not what I am aware of Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: You used your discretion, you as an individual to kill the people, it was not the National Party that instructed you to do that?

MR BOTHA: No, I did not receive any instruction from the National Party.

MR NGUBANE: Let's turn to the unit you were working for, the Special Branch unit, was it a professional unit?

MR MALAN: Sorry Mr Ngubane, if I may just interrupt you.  While we are at this issue, Mr Botha in your application, I think it is of import, you gave many reasons as to why or what the political background was, and your reasons.
	I think political objectives on page 18 and 19?

MR BOTHA: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: And then the motivation from page 20 and further on, and I think it was being explained to us when we started with these proceedings, this is a repetition of all the applicants, as to what motivated them in terms of what the different influences that you had, these decisions that you made, what was the closest to you at that time or the closest influences, not in terms of your education, but as to why you did it?
	It has been said that it was done for the sake of the Police Force, the government, the National Party and many applicants say primarily it was for the National Party, what was your view on this?

MR BOTHA: Chairperson, firstly I was a policeman.  I supported the National Party and the National Party was the government of the day.
	I assisted in keeping the government and the party in power, because as the Security Branch, and this is how we viewed it, the police in the country, we saw as the only line between the government in place and the take over of the communists.
	And from that background, and seen in the light of the circumstances under which I took those decisions, I made those decisions as was executed.

MR MALAN: I will leave it at that for the time being, thank you.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.  I was coming to the point, I asked you whether the Special Branch you worked for, did you regard it as a professional unit with operatives and the administrative side?

MR BOTHA: Yes, the Security Branch was always regarded as the elite unit in the South African Police.

MR NGUBANE: And on the administrative side, you kept records of people that were employed, their addresses, their names, is that correct?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And I take it that you also kept the records of all your informers?

MR BOTHA: We had records, yes.

MR NGUBANE: I see, now Pila Poshua Ndwandwe, she was abducted from Swaziland on information by two informers, sorry you were accompanied by two informers to abduct her, is that correct?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Who are those informers?

MR VISSER: I object to that question Mr Chairman.

MR BOTHA: I do not  know.