Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-04

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, well he slept in the barracks but that was the exact point that I wanted to make, that he slept in the barracks and that he met him through Bokaba.
	Now, what I'm trying to put to you Mr Ngo, is that the only people of the security branch you met was Danny Selahla, Bokaba and Colonel Loots because you had an interview with him.  And that is the reason why those were the only people you could name who were involved in the security branch because you met them outside the operations of the security branch.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is not true, those are the people I knew because I was working with them.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Mr du Plessis, can we simplify the question further to the witness?  You see, this questions he's saying to you:  "It is not true that you were involved in any operations of the security branch, it is not true that you were part of the security branch because had you been part of the security branch, you would have known more than just the three people".

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was working there, I was working with some members of the security branch and whilst I was still a member of the unit 19, that's why when I was taken to Mamelodi, I was supposed to work with those people.  So, the operations which I did, I did them with those people.  There were no other people whom I would mention that I took part with them in certain operations whereas I didn't take part with them in any operation, I took part in those operations which I mentioned, with those people because I was working with them.
	Those are the people I participated in these operations with, them which I've mentioned, no other person.   I would not identify any person except them, even if I saw them when they were coming as I've explained but I didn't have any contact or took part in any operation with them.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: But the question goes further to say that, on your evidence you were there for three - two years and for a period of - for you to have been there for a period of two years, you surely would have known, even if you did not take part in operations with any other person, took part in operations with any other person, you surely would have at least known a few other names over a period of two years.  What do you say to that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I used to see them but there was nothing I would discuss with them, I would just look at them.  I was - I didn't have any contact with them.  I used to see them - some members of the security branch and I'm not able to tell the names of those people except the three I've mentioned.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Now, I want to put to you further that Danny Selahla on page 53, says the following
"I was never in the same team at work with the applicant as he alleges during 1982 and 1988, I never worked with the applicant at the security branch and he was never a member of the security branch of Compol, Pretoria in 1987 during my employment there".
What do you say to that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I've already explained that I was working there and I knew all the acts that we have done.  He was there, I didn't add his name by mistake, we have been working together.

MR DU PLESSIS: All right.  Now Mr Ngo, before you joined the South African police force, do I understand the evidence correct, you acted as an informer for the security police in Bloemfontein?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is so.

MR DU PLESSIS: For how long was that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: From 1983.

MR DU PLESSIS: And as I understand your evidence correctly, you implicated - sorry, let me ask you this, you only acted as an informer, is that right?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That's so Sir.

MR DU PLESSIS: And when you testified about the incidents you were involved in and I'm speaking of all the incidents you applied for amnesty for - if we look only at the index of bundle B, we see that you have implicated - sorry, Mr Chairman, that is actually page 1 of bundle A - and that also appeared from your evidence Mr Ngo, that you implicated a lot of policemen who were all involved with the security branch of Bloemfontein, is that right?  If you look at the list it's
Lieutenant Swan, Erasmus Tsoametsi, Mamome, Motsamai, Mtyala, Killian, Sefatsa
and there's a whole list:
Colonel Coetzee, Stevenson etc.
	Were they all part of the security branch in Bloemfontein, these people who are listed here as the implicated persons?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is so Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you had a chance of reading the list?  The list is two columns?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes Mr Chairman, my question related to - actually to the left column.  Lets just look at ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: But that's not what you said ...[inaudible]

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.  I beg your pardon Mr Chairman, thank you.
	Let's look at the left-hand side, can you - is there anybody named in the left-hand side who wasn't part of the security branch at Bloemfontein?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, the first name was corrected, it's supposed to read Lieutenant Shaw, not Swan.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you.  Mr Chairman, it's Shaw, that's right.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, and the same goes for the last column - the third name Mimiswa is supposed to read Miningwa.  That was also corrected.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, it's the - on the left column, the last section of names, you will see it starts with Cronje, Koka - Mimiswa was changed to Miningwa.
	Mr Ngo, is there anybody who wasn't ...[intervention]

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, also the third - the fourth name from the top from Mr Shaw is Warrant Officer Mamome and not Mamome.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: What is the question all about in that section?

MR DU PLESSIS: Can I ask you this, can you tell us is there anybody you do not identify who was part of the Bloemfontein security branch in the left-hand column.  Is there any name that you cannot identify - that you do not know?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Sefatsa and Jantjie were stationed in Ladybrand, they were members of security branch in Ladybrand.  Koka - I don't know that name - the third from the bottom in that list.  Koka - I don't know that name.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chair, I think the Koka is the person who was referred to as Koch.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The first name in that list, Lieutenant Swan - I don't know the guy.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is Shaw.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Lieutenant Shaw?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I know Shaw.

MR DU PLESSIS: Take your time Mr Ngo, I want you to make 100% sure who was not part of the security branch.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No English translation.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chair, what is the relevance of the question to the case of the ...[intervention]

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No English translation.

ADV MEMANI: One second, Mr Ngo.
	What is the relevance of this question to the case we are expecting to hear from Bokaba, Selahla and Loots?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know, I'm waiting to hear but I imagine it may be that it's a little odd that he can give 20 names from Bloemfontein where he was for a few months and only three names from Mamelodi where he was for two years.  I don't know what point Mr du Plessis is going to make but I imagine that is one of the points that can be made.  Carry on.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Are there any other names in the left-hand column that were not part of the security branch Mr Ngo?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: And Captain Tsomela.

MR DU PLESSIS: That's the second-last one in the list Mr Chairman.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Those are the ones I could identify.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can you help me, I didn't make a note at the time.  Who were the two who were at Brandfort?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Not in Brandfort but in Ladybrand.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were they?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: ...[inaudible] Constable Jantjie and Warrant Officer Sefatsa.