Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-26

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I was at work, my Commander at the time had given me a task to just correct names of the people who would be present at work.  We were actually in a special unit that used to patrol the township and it was my job that in the morning, I should collect names of the people who would be going on patrol.
	Because those people stayed in the barracks, I would be responsible for collecting them.  As I was still performing my task, the Officer called me in and he told me that the Lieutenant wanted to see me.  I then went to the Lieutenant, Lieutenant Nqobesi.
	When I got there, he told me that Captain Tanjana wanted to see me.  I then told my Commander that I had to go see the Captain.  I went into a certain office.

MS THABETE: Please get to the point Mr Hlengwa.

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I waited at the office and Captain Tanjana came in, he greeted me.  He asked me if I had a firearm on me and I said yes, and he enquired whose it is and I said it is mine.
	He wanted to see it.  Before I handed the weapon over, I wanted to carry out the safety precautions.  He said I should just give him the gun, and he took it and left.  He went for quite a while.  When he returned, he asked me if I had another gun and I said yes.  He enquired which one, and I said it was an HMC.  He asked if it was a service pistol, service gun and I said yes, it is.
	He said I should give it to him.  Because it was in the locker at the time, I directed him to a person who would open the locker and give it to him.  He then took me to another office and I was in that office until 2 pm.
	I was taken to a vehicle and when I tried en enquire what was happening, no explanation was given.
	We went to Umlazi, it was myself and other policemen.  I realised that we were in a convoy.  When we arrived at Umlazi, I was made to wait and I saw Mdluli, Dlamini and Luthuli.  I was taken to an office and they started questioning me.  That is how I was arrested.
	From then onwards, I was taken to Umbumbulu police station.

MS THABETE: Actually, but let's carry on, my question was how did it come about that you got caught.  What was the reason?  Maybe somebody informed the policemen or - but it is okay, we can carry on.  Do you want to respond?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: At that time, I was not aware how I got arrested, but I learnt of it later when we attended the trial.
	At that time, I was not aware, I did not know.

MS THABETE: Did someone inform the policemen that you actually went to rob the pay point?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: From what I learnt, Luthuli was the one who informed the police.

MS THABETE: Okay, when you were imprisoned, you did all you did in support of the ANC, even then you did not call anybody from the authorities or inform the Regional Office that you are in the situation, because you were trying to support them?
	Didn't you inform anybody even at that stage?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: No, I did not call anyone at that time.  It was only people from my community who knew what was happening, but with regards to the leadership, I didn't.

MS THABETE: No, what I am asking you is, and you will see why I am asking you, later on, you didn't see it fit for you to at least let the ANC know that you are in this situation because you were supporting them?  You even had people who were going to support you in that, ANC people who were going to support you in that.

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I did not really see a reason because I was arrested already.  They had no issued an order that I should go and do this.  I don't see why I should go to them at the end.  I just thought that I should just serve my sentence.

MS THABETE: Which means it is proper for the ANC to claim that they don't know anything about you, nor the fact that you did something like this, and they also didn't give you authority or an order for you to proceed and do something like this?  Do you understand that and is that proper?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, I would not be surprised because I did not inform them.  It was because of the situation in the township.

MR LAX: On this issue, why didn't you just go to the people who were the people you were helping, who were the people you were already supplying ammunition to, and say to them, please go and tell your leaders I am now in terrible trouble, I have been giving you all this ammunition, I have now been stealing firearms for you, please ask them to help me?
	Why didn't you do that, that would have been a simple thing to do?  Those people knew you, they trusted you, they got ammunition from you already, why didn't you do it?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: As I said before, I was not doing this for the leaders, but I did it to protect the community.  It did not occur to me to tell them, because I did not know what their response would be since I had not informed them beforehand of what I was going to do.
	This was something that had happened to me, that I had started.  The people from the community knew about it though, because I had been involved in what had been going on in the township.  But I did not ask them to report this matter to the leadership.
	As far as I was concerned, this was fighting going on in the township.

MS THABETE: I have one more question.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, do you want one more, yes, because then I think we will take the tea adjournment.

MS THABETE: You see Mr Hlengwa, the problem with you claiming that you were supporting the ANC and you committed the offence in support of the ANC, and the fact that the ANC don't know anything about you and actually they didn't even give you authority to go and rob and even shoot people so to say, the problem with that is that you are here today and you are asking for amnesty.
	On what basis then are you asking for amnesty?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: If I can just explain, when we committed this crime, we did not know that there would be a Truth Commission established at some point.  We did this because of the situation that was facing us at that time.
	We did not know that at a certain point, we would have an opportunity to disclose this and these would be the criteria that would be used.  As I mentioned before, I cannot claim that the ANC knew about it, because they did not know.
	If I had known at the time there would be a TRC that would require that I should be under or I should have informed a political organisation, I could have done that.  Even with regards to that Defence Unit at the time, if we had known that we would have to have had a formal structure that would be responsible, we could have done that had we known.
	But because we did not know what would happen in the future, and because whatever we did at that time, was a result of a situation that was present in the township at that time, even the people that I was assisting, I am not aware whether they were card carrying members of the ANC or not, but I helped them because they were part of my community in which my family lived.
	If I had been aware that there would be a TRC at one point, I would have followed the criteria as set out.

MS THABETE: I will reserve the rest of my response for argument, but I would say to be accountable, you don't need to have known that there can be a Truth Commission in future, you just need to be accountable, but I will leave the rest for argument.
	Thank you Mr Chair, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think this will be an opportune time to take the tea adjournment.  We will take a short tea adjournment now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, have you finished with your questions?

MS THABETE: Yes, I have, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any re-examination Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Yes Mr Chairman, just one aspect.
	Mr Hlengwa, is it correct that the application forms for amnesty and the subsequent statements that were submitted to the TRC, were completed by you in your own handwriting?