Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-10

MR RICHARD: And what did they do there?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: When they arrived there they took a decision that they have to go and fetch those people who were alleged to be the witches, so that they could come and help the community.  And they indeed went out to fetch those people.

MR RICHARD: And when was it that Abraham Madibeng was named as the person responsible for Moses' disappearance?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Abraham was named together with people like Mano Gomaletswai Phasha and others and Abraham Madibeng Phasha.

MR RICHARD: Who names Abraham Phasha, who specifically named him as a witch?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: He was named by Jan Mashyani Phasha.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now on the day that Abraham Madibeng Phasha died, were any efforts made to apprehend and seize any other people names as witches?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct, but they were not found.

MR RICHARD: So on this day, where was your brother, your co-applicant, Daniel Lisufi Phasha?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Daniel Lisufi Phasha, when Madimeng Phasha was killed, he had gone out with another group that went to search for the other witches, but he left after he asked the community to accuse Madibeng, because the community was angry and he was afraid that in trying to protect him he could also be killed and people may also suspect him as a witch.  That is why he left with this other group.

MR RICHARD: From your answer I understand that Daniel wasn't present while the stoning was happening, is that correct?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now when did he arrive in the village, was it that day or the day before?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: He arrived on the same day, the same day Madibeng was killed.

MR RICHARD: At what time?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I did not see him when he arrived, but that was sometime after 6 o'clock in the afternoon and that is when I realised that he was present, then I was surprised to see him because I knew him to have been at Secunda.

MR RICHARD: Now you made a statement that he left because he had tried to dissuade the crowd from doing anything to Madibeng Phasha, did I understand you correctly?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: May you please repeat that question?

MR RICHARD: I'll put it slightly differently.  Did Daniel agree that Abraham Madibeng Phasha should have something done to him?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I don't think that he agreed, but he only tried to help protect Madibeng, but now because he could not do that, he left, because the community was angry.

MR RICHARD: Did he know that - at the time he left, would he have known that Madibeng Phasha was in danger of being killed?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I believe that he knew that there was a possibility that Madibeng could be killed, due to the fact that the community was very angry.

MR RICHARD: Where did he go?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: He went out with the other group that was going to search for other witches.

MR RICHARD: Now had any stones been thrown at the time he left?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: They had not yet started throwing stones when he left.

MR RICHARD: If he had returned with other people that had been named as witches, what would have happened to those other people?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: The way I understood from Daniel and the way I heard what Jan Mashyani Phasha said, was that those witches should come and help find Moses Phasha, not that those witches should be killed.

MR RICHARD: Now at the time there was this crowd of 500 people around the deceased, were they singing and chanting?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: What were they singing, what songs?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: ...(no English interpretation)

MR RICHARD: What do those words mean in English?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: One of the songs that they sang was about Maletswai Phasha, that he was undermining the community, because Maletswai was regarded as the senior witch.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't it also true that they were singing a song which has words, which translate into English as "Kill the impimpi, kill the witch"?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: That is one of the songs, but in most of the cases they will sing about Maletswai.

MR RICHARD: I believe, Chairperson, my learned colleagues can take it further in cross-examination, I've laid the basis.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, does that conclude the evidence-in-chief?

MR RICHARD: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mokoena.

MR MOKOENA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, although I don't have proper instructions, I would just have a few questions which I want to clarify with the applicant.
	Mr Phasha, you testified that the youth then left to the chief's kraal, were you part of the youth at the time when they went to the chief's kraal?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Yes, I was.

MR MOKOENA: Did you regard the chief as your enemy?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Yes, I did.

MR MOKOENA: Why then did you go to your enemy's kraal?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: As a member of the community I went where the community was going and I wanted to be part of the meeting and to get what we were looking for.

MR MOKOENA: Was this meeting attended by both old and young people?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Yes, both.

MR MOKOENA: Was the chief regarded as an enemy of only the youth, or both the old and the youth?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I wouldn't be certain about the community as a whole, but I am certain that he was regarded as the youth's enemy.

MR MOKOENA: How many people died before the disappearance of Moses?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Many people, such that I won't be able to tell the number.

MR MOKOENA: The young or old?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Young and old.

ADV SANDI: If I can just come in there.
	Can you sort of explain under what circumstances such people would die?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I may not know the reasons why they were killed, but there were suspicions about their deaths.  Like we know that a person can die due to an accident, or become ill and die, but their deaths were very suspicious.

ADV SANDI: Tell us more about that.  Why were such people's deaths suspicious, suspicious to who?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: At that time they were suspecting the whites.  I just want to know whether you mean that whether those people suspected the whites or not, I was actually not answering.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but you say a lot of people died before Moses disappeared and I have asked you in what kind of situations would these people die, would it be car accidents, people falling sick and dying, or old people just dying because their life has come to an end? You know, that sort of thing.

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: One of them, if I remember well, died after he had fallen from the bed.  The other one died because it was said he was struck by lightening.

ADV SANDI: Can I take it that you are not suggesting that there was anything political about the circumstances in which those people had died?  You're not suggesting any politics in that.

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: I believe that because at that time people were not yet involved in politics, they became involved after the - around the death of Moses.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  I'm sorry about that, Mr Mokoena, I just wanted that clarity.

MR MOKOENA: Okay, thank you.
	Mr Phasha, you said your leader was supporting the previous government and therefore used these witches to fight the youth, who were inspired with the motives or whatever, of the ANC.  Now what I want to find out is, how did - or what exactly did these witches do to fight the youth?

MICHAEL MORUDI PHASHA: Amongst other things that they would do would be to kill the youth, like the community believed that they were killed by the witches.