Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1999-10-19

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: We were in a state of war.  As I've said that when we moved away from Mr Jansen's car, the soldiers were approaching and we attacked the soldiers and they ran away.  And then after that we withdrew from where we were to Nonxolo and make some more petrol bombs because we needed to go to another area and take the attention of the police and the soldiers to that other side while we'll be coming back on Klipfontein Road for another thing.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Do you have any idea whether those petrol bombs were then used in Lansdowne Road that day?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Ja, they definitely were used.  I used one too.  The one that I used, it even nearly burnt me because when I was trying to throw it, it came at my back and then I was wearing a "jas", I had to pull the jacket out.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Sorry, Honourable Chairperson, I'm almost through, I'm just double-checking my notes.  If you'll grant me a moment.
	Just regarding the testimony of Carol Plaatjies against you at the trial.  You say she never knew you.  Can you deny though that she was part of the crowd?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Let me begin here.  Why I believe that Carol Plaatjies didn't know me, I was staying in Guguletu and I was not frequenting Nyanga East regularly.  First of all, why I am saying that Carol Plaatjies was lying, it is because she lied about Oscar Mpetha.  She said that Oscar Mpetha went to Crossroads and he was there and he raised his fists and said "Amandla".
	The fact of the matter is, what made Oscar Mpetha become a part of our case, it is because Oscar Mpetha on the 12th, he made a statement to the Cape Times, or Argus and said "It is not the youth that is provoking the police, it is the police that are provoking the youth".  And Oscar Mpheta on the 13th of the same month, he was arrested and something was made up that Oscar Mpetha should become part of this trial.  And I will say and I am still saying that Carol Plaatjies was a very intelligent State witness and indeed she was very intelligent at the age of 15, the way they taught her because she definitely lied.  I was there, there was no old man there, not even a single old man, let alone Oscar Mpetha.  Oscar Mpetha is known all over Nyanga East and Guguletu.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, do you accept she was part of the crowd?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: To answer that question, Your Worship, I cannot deny that she was part of the crowd, she might have been there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
	Her testimony, together with that of a certain Monwabise and Mr Fufu, was that you had addressed the crowd at the church, which you've admitted to us, that you assisted in building the barricades, which you haven't mentioned to us.  You've stated that by the time you all came to Klipfontein Road, the barricades had already been built.  Can I just get your comment on this difference?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Yes.  First of all, I didn't help in building the barricade in Klipfontein Road.  And secondly, if you read the very same records there is somewhere where Monwabise or Fufu says that I went to Russia with a car.  Can any normal person from South Africa go to Russia with a car?  It is here in these records where it was said that I went together, myself, Fufu and Monwabise to Russia with a car.

MS PATEL: Well unfortunately I haven't read the complete trial, but it's not mentioned in the judgment.  Be that as it may.  It is also said that you told accused number 2, who is Christopher Siglahia, he's the one who had the impediment, he was cripple I think or he used a walking stick, that you were one of the people who told him to stand in the middle of the road to stop the cars.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: That too I deny, that I have never ordered anyone to lie in front of the road because if you do that you are rising that particular person's life, so you cannot say that to - Chris is late now and he was limping.  A limping man, if that particular person or that particular target which arrived at that time, take an immediate decision to run off over him, how I was going to answer that?  I never gave orders to Chris to lie on the road.  Yes, I agree, there was a barricade.  How was it made I really don't know because that was a crowd.

MS PATEL: Okay.  How big was the crowd?  Can you give us an estimation?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: If I will estimate, I will say the crowd was approximately more than 2 000 people, because when we a certain section of the crowd was at Klipfontein Road other people were still coming from behind.  So there were many people, particularly the youth.

MS PATEL: Okay.  It was also said that you assisted in overturning Mr Beeton's vehicle.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Yes I did.  I did overturn, not Mr Beeton, Mr Jansen's bakkie.

MS PATEL: No, Mr Beeton.  The allegation was against Mr Beeton.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: No, Mr Beeton's car was never overturned.  The car which was overturned it's a bakkie of Mr Jansen.  What happened with Mr Beeton, Mr Beeton was pelted with stones and all sorts of ...(indistinct).  Mr Beeton was, he was just stunned, he couldn't do anything at that time.  He was just holding the car.  He stopped the car gently I must say.  He stopped the car unlike Mr Jansen who tried to reverse back, which he missed a gear.  But Mr Beeton when he saw the crowd he stopped in front of the crowd.  So I didn't overturn the car which was coming from Cape Town's direction, which was driven by Mr Beeton.  I agree to the bakkie that I overturned.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Can I just, for purposes of the record, state to you that nowhere in the record is it stated that you actually stabbed Mr Jansen yourself.  If I can refer to page 114 of the bundle, it's merely stated by Fufu that you took the knife from number 17, right, from accused number 17 and said that you were licking the blood of a dog and you then hit Mr Jansen with a brick on the head.  The allegation is not that you stabbed him but that you hit him with a brick on the head.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Okay.  That I hit Mr Jansen with a brick on his head, that is true because I used a stone.  That I stabbed Mr Jansen, that is totally untrue.  That I licked the blood of a human being, that is also totally untrue.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, bar if there's anything else from the family at this point in time, I'm through.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Ms Patel.   We'll take the tea adjournment at this stage and we'll reconvene in 15 minutes time.

MS PATEL: Would everyone please rise.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: (s.u.o.)

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: I think I will have to say something here before we go any further.  I've just asked my lawyer here to make an arrangement so that I can meet with the families.  I think that will be proper, if they agree that I meet with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: With the understanding of the family.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, possibly it is a matter that should be explored between your lawyer and Ms Patel, and hopefully it is possible to make an arrangement in that regard, but they will investigate that particular question.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: I want to say that, especially to the two families, I wish that they join in the building of South Africa and I also wish that even others who might not have come forward to the TRC, I want them to come forward to the TRC precisely because it will be necessary, as South Africans, both black and white, that we build our country.  No-one will build this country except us South Africans.  And thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Hlapo.  Mr Crossley, have you got any re-examination?