Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What did you do in patrolling it?  Can we know exactly how you went about defending the community?
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UNKNOWN: /...
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UNKNOWN: We tried to make sure that people are not being attacked by the vigilante ....(intervention).

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: How did you ensure that people were not being attacked by the vigilante?

UNKNOWN: We kept on guard all the time to make  sure that everybody is safe, escorting people from the busstops to home.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: If people were to be attacked what would you do?

UNKNOWN: We would help them by fighting against the people who are trying to attack them?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: How would you fight those people?

UNKNOWN: We would try and find out from them as to why are they attacking these people and try and defuse the matter.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: How would you fight those people?

UNKNOWN: We would try fighting them by trying to talk to them and we would fight with them after talking to them.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: That is not fighting, talking to them.  How would you fight those people?

UNKNOWN: As I said, that we would fight but we try stopping this person, but if they don't listen we would try to stop the person doing from whatever they want to do.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Do you lack the courage to say that as a member of the SDU, if necessary, in defending the community I would produce a gun and shoot people who were terrorising the community? Do you lack that courage to say so, if that was the case?

UNKNOWN: I  wouldn't just shoot people without a reason.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: (Inaudible)

UNKNOWN: Yes, because all the time they were shooting
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and attacking people and therefore we had to protect the community.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I tried all in vain to get out of you how you go about protecting the community.  Anyway, that is the
answer that you gave me.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there occasions when you fought back shooting at people?

UNKNOWN: No, we never fought with guns.   They always had guns all the time.  We never killed people.  We never had intentions to kill people.

CHAIRPERSON: I am talking about you.   Have you had occasion to fight back by shooting?

UNKNOWN: No, I never fought back with shooting.

JUDGE WILSON: (Question inaudible)

UNKNOWN: I was carrying a gun because the situation in the location was not so restful, therefore I had to defend myself all the time.

JUDGE WILSON: You continually denied when my Brother here has asked you that you were prepared to defend yourself by shooting back.  What is the position?

UNKNOWN: I had no intentions to kill the deceased.  It was just because of the circumstances in the location.

UNKNOWN: Mr Faltein, you were a member of the SDU, and as a  member of the  SDU, whose duty was to protect the community, shouldn't you have killed, if necessary, to protect the community against the vigilante group?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I would protect the community because the vigilante were killing and burning down houses,so  I  had to protect the community.

UNKNOWN: When did the vigilante come into existence in your area?
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UNKNOWN: /..
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UNKNOWN: They started in 1990.  I only saw it in 1990.

UNKNOWN: And immediately after their formation they started colluding with the police?

UNKNOWN: Yes, wherever they went to they were
accompanied by the police.  Wherever they were they had police with them.

UNKNOWN: In your evidence you mentioned a Mr Dumile Mzeko, who is he?

UNKNOWN: He was in the Executive Committee of the ANC.  He is now the Mayor of Carltonville.

UNKNOWN: What information would Mzeko have been able to place before this Committee, because when you answered a question in your application form to state the political objective you sought to achieve when you committed the murder, you simply referred us to Mr Mzeko.  What information would Mr Mzeko have given us?

UNKNOWN: He can indicate that as we are members of the ANC he can explain as to how were we operating and as to what happened, what led to .... He can explain as to what's the role that I played in the struggle.

UNKNOWN: Can you tell us what role you played in the struggle in relation to this murder?

UNKNOWN: My role in the struggle was not to kill.  It was just to mobilise the people and to protect them against the vigilantes.

UNKNOWN: In your evidence you stated that you had to leave your area because of the heightened violence by the vigilante group.  When did you leave?

UNKNOWN: I left after our house was burnt down and we were being harassed by the police and they wanted to kill  me.  Therefore I went to stay in Orlando.
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UNKNOWN: Would I be correct to say that you only left your home on the 3rd December 1990 to stay in Orlando?

UNKNOWN: No, I didn't leave on the 3rd, but I don't remember exactly, but it was after the incident.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Faltein, I don't want there to be any misunderstanding.   You need not prove before us that you are innocent.  All we want to know, and it (inaudible - microphone not activated).  But before answering now, I think all my colleagues asked you and even begged you to tell us the whole truth, but we are not sure that you have confessed the whole truth to us.  Make use of the opportunity, because that's your only opportunity you will have.

UNKNOWN: What I can say in front of this Committee is that when the deceased was a very troublesome person in the location.  He was killing people and burning down houses until he burnt my property and my parents were burnt.  And afterwards the police never did anything until the time when he died on the 24th.  And  the police were quite aware of everything, but no steps were taken by them and nobody was arrested.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, did you say your parents were burnt?

UNKNOWN: Yes, they burnt their legs.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: They sustained some injuries as a result of the burning of the house.

UNKNOWN: Yes, they burnt their legs and the house burnt down as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the only (inaudible) you wish to make?

<UNKNOWN>: That is correct, Chairperson, Mr Faltein, this is the situation, the situation I am  referring during that time, 1990.   You had the vigilante group on the other side
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and you had yourselves.   Yourselves I mean you in the self-defence unit and the African National Congress Youth Section.   These were two opposing groups, isn't it so?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: Now, you have told this Committee the vigilante group was harassing, was maiming, was killing and was burning the properties in Khutsong.  Now you from your side you had the duty to protect the community of Khutsong against vigilantes, isn't it correct?

UNKNOWN: Yes, that's correct.

UNKNOWN: And isn't it so that in order to protect the community  of Khutsong, you needed to arm yourself and you needed even to protect through the usage of those arms, when necessary, isn't it so?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.  The guns that we had were to  protect the community against the vigilante.

UNKNOWN: During the existence of this vigilante group, I believe there was no more peace and stability Khutsong isn't it because of the actions of these vigilante groups, isn't it so?

UNKNOWN: That is correct, there was no peace at all.

UNKNOWN: I want you to tell this Committee then what happened then after the death of David Mayeko?  Did Khutsong  experience stability and peace?

UNKNOWN: After David's death in 1990 there was a general meeting called to discuss this issue that there mustn't be violence any more in the township.

UNKNOWN: Was there peace and stability in Khutsong after the death of David Mayeko?

UNKNOWN: Yes, there was peace.   After there was a meeting at the stadium that people should have  peace with
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their hearts.