Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-30

CHAIRPERSON: The Panel this morning is constituted as before.    For the purpose of the record, I am going to ask the representatives of the various interested parties, in this application, to announce themselves for that purpose, of the record.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman.  My name is Miss Mohamed, from the firm Dehal Inc, on record for the applicant.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, I am Miss Thabethe for the TRC, the Evidence Leader.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Mohamed?

MS MOHAMED: Mr Chairman, I call the applicant, Mr Lucky Sithole.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sithole, what language would you like to use in the first place?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I would like to use Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

LUCKY SITHOLE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Sithole, you have before you a bundle of documents.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you carry on, Ms Mohamed.  Ms Thabethe, I see there is no representation for victims, what is the position about victims?

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, the position is that there was an advert in the newspapers for victims, but nobody came forward.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, proceed.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Sorry, just before you go on, Ms Thabethe, Mr Breed made a statement, did he not, that was at page 23 of the bundle, he was the owner of the Toyota Hi-Lux and it seems clear from his statement there, that he does not oppose the application.  Is that not correct?

MS THABETHE: That is correct, thank you, I am indebted to you, Mr Lax.  May I just add on, the advert appears on page 24 of the bundle.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Sithole, do you confirm your amnesty application, which is on pages 1 to 7 of this bundle?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, I do.

MS MOHAMED: Do you also confirm the supporting statement which is found on pages 8 to 11?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, I do.

MS MOHAMED: Now, on your instructions, Mr Sithole, I have drafted a four page statement, which you have earlier this morning signed, the statement has been made available.  Do you confirm the contents of it?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, I do confirm it.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we carry on.  You are confirming the contents of the statement and you have signed it, are you aware of its contents?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, I am aware of it, because I read it.

CHAIRPERSON: And you are quite satisfied with the contents?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, I am satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything that you would like to amend in the statement?

LUCKY SITHOLE: There is nothing that I would like to change now, because there was a slight inaccuracy which we corrected with my Attorney.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, so all the others that have not been deleted or corrected, you are satisfied as being accurate and the truth as far as you are concerned?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, I am satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON: The statement on page 8 of the bundle, you are aware of the contents thereof?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, I am aware.

CHAIRPERSON: I see you signed it as well?  Is that correct, or would you like time to read it?  Would you like time to read it?  It seems to me that you are not quite sure of the contents?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I have read it already.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you satisfied that it properly reflects what you intended to say in that document, or do you want to amend something in that?

LUCKY SITHOLE: No, I do not think there is any mistake or anything that needs to be corrected.

CHAIRPERSON: Your application that appears from pages 1 to page 7, I assume that you are aware of the contents thereof?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, I am aware.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything that you would like to amend in that document?

LUCKY SITHOLE: No.  There is nothing.

CHAIRPERSON: You are satisfied with the contents thereof?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, I am satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, proceed Ms Mohamed.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Sithole, do you also confirm that a copy of this bundle was made available to you at Westville prison, last Friday, and you have had that copy with you, since that day?

LUCKY SITHOLE: That is correct.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you.  Mr Sithole, I am now going to take you to the statement that I have prepared and which you have signed.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you make that Exhibit A?

MS MOHAMED: Yes, Mr Chairperson.   Isn't it correct that paragraphs 3 to 8, confirm your training and your involvement with the ANC as an MK operative?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, that is correct.

MS MOHAMED: Sorry, before we go on,  can you tell us whether you are still a member of the ANC?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, I am a full member of the ANC.

MS MOHAMED: Okay.  Do you occupy any position within the ANC structures at Westville prison?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, I am an organiser within the Executive Committee of the ANC at Westville prison.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you.  I am going to take you to paragraph 9 of your statement which says
"... Around 1992 I returned to South Africa, to my home in Umhlazi."

LUCKY SITHOLE: That is correct.

MS MOHAMED: Shortly after your arrival at Umhlazi, there was a particular incident, can you just elaborate on that?

LUCKY SITHOLE: The incident that I recall was one told to me by my Commanders of comrades, who had been attacked at Section Z in Umhlazi by the police.  That attack, their firearms had been lost and those comrades have not been killed, that is the incident that I recall.

MS MOHAMED: Now, who were the Commanders that related this incident to you?

LUCKY SITHOLE: The people who came to me were stalwarts in the ANC, Mr Mapomule as well as Commander Freza Shangasi, who was a Deputy Camp Commander in Angola.   His MK name was Mzwaki, but his real name is Freza Shangasi.

MS MOHAMED: After this incident was related to you, what did you do?

LUCKY SITHOLE: There was nothing else I could do, except to follow their instructions, because as an MK cadre, I had to follow instructions from my Commanders.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, these two Commanders, have they been given notice?

MS THABETHE: Can you give me time again, Mr Chair, I just want to check that one out.  Mr Chair, I've got an investigation report done by (indistinct), it appears that both are deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Both are deceased?

MS THABETHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you confirm whether your Commanders at the time, whether they are deceased at present or not?

LUCKY SITHOLE: The information I received in 1997 from Commander Shangasi in prison, is that Mr Mapomule had been deceased.  Mr Shangasi was also later arrested, and he was sentenced at Westville prison, whereupon he died.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Sithole, before these questions about your Commanders were put to you, you said that after this incident was related to you, you could do nothing but follow the instructions of your Commanders.  What instructions did they give you?

LUCKY SITHOLE: After relating that incident, they said as a trained soldier who worked as a Logistics Officer as well as an Ordinance Officer, they would appoint me to be an Ordinance Officer.   Therefore I would be responsible for organising arms and ammunition, because after the death of these comrades, they did not know, they could not trace the DLBs, so I was going to be responsible for organising arms and ammunition, so that other cadres could be trained.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the only reason why you had to organise arms, to effect the training of other cadres?

LUCKY SITHOLE: That was the reason that was advanced to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Why I ask, in your original application although it is not really said to that extend, there seems to be a suggestion that you needed arms to protect defenceless people and to free the people from oppression?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell me how that is related to each other?

INTERPRETER: Please repeat the question.