Human Rights Violation Hearings — Tzaneen — 1997-04-10

MR NKWAMBA: Where I stay, the place is called farm Kwagga which is known as Lulekane to-day.  Lulekane is the name of a person.  I would say, like Zamusi himself.  Zamusi is not his surname.  His surname if Maleleke and when he gave the name Lulekane to this place, he was trying to give this place the name of his surname as it's name.  When I arrived to the  Kwam Kwagga, we wanted to call it Mala Mala and Chief Minister changed it to Lulekane.  I'm still staying there right to-day.  To-day, I'm not the Chief.  However, the people, they still come and insist that they're not going to accept anyone as a Chief.  The only person that they want, it's me.  Even if the people, other people have to stone Zamusisan as a Chief, people insist that I have to work for the community to do all the things that affects their life.  However, it's so difficult for me to have, to help them.  However, it's not my request.  However, people cars still come to me to ask for help.  I still even have the documents of people.  Thank you.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mr Nkwamba, did I hear you well that you did apply to the Magistrate to be a Chief ?

MR NKWAMBA: That's is the truth.  As I said, each and every individual has his or her own talent.  I deserved to be.  There is no one who will go to work for the whole month, to work and only at the end of the month, to get his reward being paid to someone else.  I think I've worked for the community and I deserved to be a Chief.  Before the Chief Minister died, I wrote a letter which I took it to his office to show him and I, I wanted to make it clear to him what kind of a person...  is there a person who can work without a  reward.  Even him, to say the truth, he wasn't a Chief.  He was a lecturer at the University of the North.  Allow me that, Mr Chairperson.  He wasn't a Chief but they asked him to come and stand as a Chief Minister to run the country or the homeland.  I will say I did work hard for the community, therefore I have to say it and I think there is not any other reward which could be given to me and I have to get myself rewarded somehow.

THOMAS MANTHATA: As you put it that you did a lot for the people, I guess you could have put up schools, you could have put up clinics but one area that is still a problem is the one that you referred to of witchcraft.  Where you are saying two children were   assumed to have been burnt down in a house.  How did you handle that problem?

MR NKWAMBA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  That is true.  In connection with schools or clinics.  When I arrived at Kwagga Farm, it was just a forest.  There wasn't even water.  There was nothing.  The Commissioner said there's nothing we can do about water and other things.  I had to work for the community, go buying pipes and install pipe, water pipes and I built a school in that forest.  I have to take children to school.  I have to take their parents to your work, to Palaborwa Fosco and many other places and if I come back to the issue of the children who disappeared.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I just wanted to hear your response to the question.  The rest we quite appreciate, you know, how much you did for the people.

MR NKWAMBA: Mr Chairperson, can you please repeat your question?

THOMAS MANTHATA: You spoke about two kids.  I don't know if it's Pauline or Enyati or not.  Who got burnt, who have said to have been burnt down in a house and that setup you explained in a manner which suggested, you know some mystics which, it's just not too clear, where you're involved, witchcraft and so on.  So my question was, what did you do with the problem of witchcraft in that community?

MR NKWAMBA: Firstly, Mr Chairperson, I would like to say, children were not burnt.  D, I hope you understand that, Mr Chairpen.  No children were burnt.  The people said, this old lady, Mrs Ngasi has stolen these children and hidden them inside the house.  Mason Dimbane's wife was, when they got married, she already had the two children and they had to get married and stayed with the children together.  If I get it clearly, I didn't see but I heard that the children were taken by their former or their real parent or father, away.  What was burnt was Mrs Ngasi's house and property and not the children and the reason why it was burning was because they thought she took the children.  The children were not burnt.  They were taken by the real father and they, to be hidden somewhere.  I will say this was the beginning of the politics issue where people started burning other people's properties.
 When it comes to witchcraft, I personally didn't have the right to interfere in work within this field of witchcraft, because the police were the bright people who were dealing with that matter.  Mr Chairperson, that's the reason why I had to go and report the matter to the police, because I didn't want to be involved in witchcraft issues and the police, as the people who had to maintain law and order, they have to go and investigate and prevent such issues.  Thank you.

THOMAS MANTHATA: To understand you clearly Mr Nkwamba.  Are we saying that the problems largely between you and Etzwanise and not between you and the central government?   That is, not between you and the apartheid government?

MR NKWAMBA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  I didn't have any conflict or problem with the national government, National Party Government.  I had a problem with the Chief Minister, Mr Etzwanise.  He was my friend, he was a very good friend to me, however, the friendship ended when the Farm Kwagga came into this, into, between us.

THOMAS MANTHATA: No further questions.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you, Sir.  Thank you for coming to, to speak to us.  What is becoming more and more clear to us in the, in the Commission as we work, especially in these areas where there was so many different homeland structures, is the way in which these homeland structures upset and interfered with the traditional structures and with the traditional Chieftanships.  One of the jobs that we actually have is to try and, and understand this and present a picture of, of what was actually happening.  We are quite fortunate in that we, in, in the audience to-day, we actually have some of the members of government who are advisors to the Premier on some of these traditional matters.  This is Mr Tjolo here and we also have Mr Shope who advised the Premier on these issues and we will certainly try and contribute to that process in form of recommendations and in the form of also trying to bring to the attention of the, of the governments, the provincial governments in particular, but national, the national  government in general, what we have learnt, our understanding and suggest maybe some recommendations as to how's these issues can be tackled and, and hopefully some solutions can be found, because we, we, we see in, we see more and more just how these homeland structures divided people and, and, and how often it led to people losing their homes, people losing livestock, people losing businesses and people being impoverished.  So, thank you very much for your, for your account.  It certainly helps us to understand and will help us in our work and as Dr Randera said, if you have any other documentation which you want to make available to the Commission, please do so either through Zodwa who's next to you or through any other member of staff of the Commission.  Thank you.