Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

CHAIRPERSON: But your response to just the last question was that if you were looking for money, you would have ransacked the house and the instruction from Makwara, if I followed what you're saying is that you should get anything from the farmers ...

JUDGE DE JAGER: I beg your pardon, but the case you are handling is making a tremendous noise on the loudspeakers.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, Mr Khumalo, the instruction was that you should get anything that would benefit the organisation and your last response thereto was that you did not ransack the house.

BONGANI KHUMALO: Sir we did not ransack the house.  It is known that the money is kept in the safe.  Now the question was I was looking for money, not I thought the question to me, I wanted money for personal use, not - so I was to kill the white people and take the important items.  Had the money been there, I would have taken it for the benefit of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you understand the important items would be that would benefit the organisation?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Weapons, money, if a vehicle was close enough, I would have taken it so that I could transport the items that I had.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Coetzer.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo did you have to report back to Mr Makwara at any stage?

BONGANI KHUMALO: If the mission was well accomplished, I would have reported to him.

MR COETZER: Why didn't you report back to him?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I was arrested on the 25th.  I did not have a chance even at the Reitz police station to inform him about my arrest.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Coetzer, if I could just come in here.  What was the arrangement if there was any between yourself and your Commander?  Where were you supposed to meet him and give him a report after this attack?

BONGANI KHUMALO: He told me that we will meet during the weekend, in other words the day of the attack, the 25th, was chosen by me.  Now in other words the Saturday, the coming Saturday we were going to meet and I was going to present to him the items repossessed.

ADV SANDI: Do you know if he subsequently became aware that you had been arrested?

BONGANI KHUMALO: He subsequently knew because I was with him at Grootvlei.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Grootvlei is the jail, is that correct?

BONGANI KHUMALO: That is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But you didn't have an appointment to meet him at Grootvlei?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct, but it ended up being that way, we met there.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo please help me in this.  You said the 23rd was the last time that you saw Mr Makwara.

BONGANI KHUMALO: That was the last day to meet with him for the execution of the order he gave me but I never met him in connection with the incident afterwards.

MR COETZER: You said that you wanted to talk to Mr Makwara again, but because you were arrested you couldn't.

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes, he was still - he was outside, he was a free man, I was inside the prison.  As I explained, I last saw him there and I met him in 1998 here in Grootvlei prison.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, were you out on bail?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes, I was on bail.

MR COETZER: Couldn't you have met up with Mr Makwara at that stage?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I did not get a chance, the right chance.  I used to frequent Qwaqwa, but I did not frequent his place, Mutshabelo.

ADV SANDI: Didn't you think it was a matter of importance to meet him whilst you were out on bail and tell him things didn't go right and give him a report.  Didn't you think that was important?

BONGANI KHUMALO: It was important Sir, but I mentioned already that I - the treatment that I got at the station was not well, to put it clearly I was shot at and I was in pains, I even have the scar today.

ADV SANDI: Ja, but couldn't you send out messages to Makwara and say:  "Please come and see me, I want to talk to you."

BONGANI KHUMALO: I was not thinking well, Sir and I always thought of what the police told me.  They told me that:  "You are going to die.  You're going to be sentenced to death.  You are going to Pretoria."  All these things combined with the family problems, these really worked on my mind.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you shot at?

BONGANI KHUMALO: May I show the Committee?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, you cant tell me the anatomy of your body, not undress here, it's not a conducive place to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

BONGANI KHUMALO: I was shot next to the genitals, Sir.

ADV SANDI: Did the PAC or Makwara assist you to secure legal representation?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I did not organise anybody from the organisation to represent me because I was told always that if you are a member of the organisation, they could kill you anytime.

ADV SANDI: Did the PAC or Makwara render any kind of assistance to you whilst you were going through the criminal trial?

BONGANI KHUMALO: No, Sir and I think - I took the blame for what happened, so I did not involve them.

ADV SANDI: Did you require any kind of assistance?  Did you need to be assisted with anything whilst you were going through the criminal trial?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I did not expect any assistance from anybody and  if the organisation had assisted me, I would have been known to be belonging to a certain organisation, so I was concerned with my life, so I did not ask from any assistance from anybody.

CHAIRPERSON: But didn't you say they told you you are going to die in Pretoria?  You would be sent to Pretoria.  Was life a matter to you because you were in any event going to die, did that matter?

BONGANI KHUMALO: It troubled me a lot, Sir and it ended up being true.

CHAIRPERSON: Even if you told the PAC, you were still going to die according to what they told you, it did not matter whether the PAC knew or not, you were going to die, isn't it, according to what they told you?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes, Sir, the police were telling me:  "You are going to die" and some of them will say:  "No, you won't die, there will be an appeal made", so all these troubled me and under such circumstances you don't think straight, you don't know what's going on.  How would an appeal trouble you because you would probably be successful on appeal and save your life?   Wouldn't that be so?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Sir, I agree with you on what you are saying but at that time situations were not like now as we are sitting here talking.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you said earlier, if I may just continue Mr Coetzer, just this last question.  You said you were given bail, you recall that?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: How much was the bail fixed at?

BONGANI KHUMALO: It was R1 000.

CHAIRPERSON: Who paid the bail money?

BONGANI KHUMALO: It's my father.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed Mr Coetzer.

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, I will come back to the money.  Approximately R300 was stolen from the house on that day.

BONGANI KHUMALO: Sir, I don't know anything about money.

MR COETZER: Constable Mehi testified that you threw money over the fence after you were injured.  How do you explain that?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Mr Mehi is the person who shot at me and they jumped the fence, saying they were searching for the weapons and immediately all of a sudden he came up with money, that I did not know where it came from.  There was no exhibit from me, now they were using money to pressurise me and I did not know anything about this money.

JUDGE DE JAGER: What happened to the purse that Tshabalala took?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I did not check what happened to the purse, I ended up - the purse was in his hand, that's the last time I saw it.  I don't know what happened thereafter.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But you were sent to get money and guns.  Now you see this purse but you don't worry about what you've been ordered to do.  You ignore your order to take money and guns.