Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-14

MR MBANDAZAYO: That the incident regarding the two policemen, Mr Chairman, it's clear that at the time when he shot at the policemen he wanted to get away, didn't want to be arrested by the policemen, because he knew and at that time he believed that he was wanted for the murder of the other policemen, Mashamahite.  And taking into account that the reason for him shooting at the policemen was he wanted to get away from them, he did not want to be arrested.
	Mr Chairman, there is no doubt in my mind that that act was associated with political objective in the sense that he did not want to be arrested for an offence which he committed of killing a policeman.  And also that, Mr Chairman, taking into account that the policy of APLA at that time, even though in this instance for shooting at them was to avoid arrest, was to attack the policemen because they were regarded as the part of the system.  But at this particular incident he did shoot at them because he wanted to avoid arrest.  And I submit, Mr Chairman, that if the Committee accepts that he was member of APLA and at the time he committed the initial offence of Mashamahite and the attempted murder of Hladi, he was acting within the course and scope of his employment.  Then it follows that his action to avoid being arrested by the police were also indeed associated with political objective.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether any of these two policemen was injured?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, if I can just ask the applicant.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  None, Mr Chairman, was injured.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say that the application as drafted is wide enough to include those two counts?  In fact the application relates to the charges in respect of which he was convicted, except that he is saying in his papers that he never robbed Mr Hladi?

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the only incident where, Mr Chairman, he's disassociating himself because he also in his evidence-in-chief indicated that there was an exchange of gunfire with the police and he ended up being shot, because he ran out of bullets.  So definitely, Mr Chairman, that it covers the whole incident, Mr Chairman, with the exception of the one, he's denying that he never robbed Mr Hladi.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And also just indicate to us whether these two persons in respect of count six and seven of the indictment, whether they have been notified about the hearing when you address us.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Mr Chairman, I'm not in a position to confirm whether they've been notified or not at this stage, sir, unless I can have some other time to peruse my documents and verify that.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think it's fine.  I think present the argument to us.  If anything turns on that issue of notification, we've taken note of the fact that it doesn't seem as if they have suffered any personal injury in that sort of situation.  Of course one doesn't know how people view these things, but in that sort of case one assumes that there is less inclination to participate in proceedings like this and it might very well be able subsequent to the hearing to notify them and hear if they want to add anything.  So, don't interrupt your argument at this stage about that.  Address us and then we can look at that issue once you're done.  So, please proceed.

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman, I don't have much of the issues to raise at this point particularly, sir, regarding the attack by APLA cadres on the police during those years.  The only issue, sir, I wanted to raise, it looks like has also been dealt with by the applicant's legal representative himself, that one of robbery.  And, sir, that being the case I really don't have any other issues to take up.

CHAIRPERSON: I assume you don't have any further responses?

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Well, that concludes the application at this stage.  We will need a bit of time to consider the matter and we will also consider the question of an approach to the two persons in respect of the attempted murder counts to hear whether they wish to add any material to what has already been placed before the Committee.  So, at this stage we will adjourn and we will consider the matter.  Mr Mapoma, is there any other case that we can proceed with at this stage or are you not in a position to present anything further today?

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairman, no, not today.  The next matter will be that of Phila Dolo.  But, sir, I propose that we begin tomorrow with that one, but not today, sir.  At this point I don't have another matter to go on.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it in order for us to commence at 9 o'clock tomorrow?

MR MAPOMA: From me that is in order, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you also appear for Mr Dolo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, I appear for Mr Dolo.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any problem if we commence at 9 o'clock with the proceedings?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Mr Chairman.  In fact in terms of the arrangement I thought it was going to be the first case today.  So I'm ready with it at 9 o'clock, Mr Chairman.  I'm here.  By 9 o'clock we'll be ready, Mr Chairman.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we do want to start at 9 o'clock.  As it's common public knowledge, we are under some pressure to conclude the work that we have to do as a Committee, and I would like the Correctional Services people to take note of that and to please ensure that Mr Dolo is in fact available for us to continue at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.  Than you.  In that case it will conclude our hearing for today.  We will adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock when we will hear the matter of Phila Martin Dolo.  We're adjourned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS