Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-11

MS SEROKE: On your release on the 12th of July did you try to institute a case against the police?
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BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: My lawyer Priscilla Jana has got the statement.

MS SEROKE: Was your lawyer Priscilla Jana here and how far did the matter go?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: It just did not go very far.

MS SEROKE: Do you still know these policemen?  Are they still around?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: They are still around, but they have been posted to different places.

MS SEROKE: They are not in Carletonville anymore?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: No, they are not in Carletonville anymore.

MS SEROKE: But you know that they are still elsewhere

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: Yes, I know because Skeepers was still in Parys.

MS SEROKE: You said you still have not recovered fully and you cannot even get medical treatment.  This ear, is it still proper, can you still hear properly?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: I try, but my health depends on the weather.

MS SEROKE: Do you want to see doctors?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: Yes, I still want to see doctors.

MS SEROKE: But you cannot afford.  Would you like the Truth Commission to try and help you by referring you to a doctor?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: Yes mam.

MS SEROKE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Seroke.  Dr Ally.

RUSSELL ALLY: Rambo, was this the first time that you were detained by the police?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: No.

RUSSELL ALLY: Could you tell us about your previous encounters with the police just briefly?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: I was arrested for public violence in 1985.

RUSSELL ALLY: Could you just tell us a little bit more about that, just to elaborate a bit.  Public violence, what
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actually happened?  What was the exact charge?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: On the 19th of February 1985 we decided as students and we protested.  We told our teachers about our demands and the punishment at school.  Whilst we were in the meeting with the principal on the 19th of February, we were still trying to solve the problem that was at school at that time.  We were surprised to see policemen just arriving.  They were beating up the students on the premises.  At that time the policemen and students were rivals.  There was no peace and that is when we started loitering and looting in the township because of the deeds of the policemen on the school premises.  I was arrested in March 1985 and I was granted a R100.00 bail.  On the 20th of November 1985 I managed to succeed and I managed to further on with my life till today.

RUSSELL ALLY: Sir, I did not exactly understand that point.  On the 20th of November 1985.  Are you saying that you were acquitted, that you were found not guilty in the public violence case?  Is that what you meant?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: Yes, that is what I mean Sir.

RUSSELL ALLY: Then in 1996 you were arrested.  You were detained at that night vigil.  This organisation, The Khutsong Student Congress, was it an affiliate of COSAS or any other national body?  The student body that you were involved in, the Khutsong Student Congress.  Was it an affiliate of COSAS or any other national body?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: Yes, it was affiliated with COSAS at that time.

RUSSELL ALLY: You speak about this night vigil for this Comrade Oupa Sweso.  Could you tell us about him, how he was killed because you do not have it in your statement?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: Comrade Kleinboy Sweso, he died because of
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illness, due to illness.

RUSSELL ALLY: Earlier on, you may have heard the testimony
of the brother, of Shadrick who was killed earlier in the same year that you are speaking about, beginning of 1986.  The name Skeepers also came up.  Is this the same, firstly, did you know Shadrick by any chance, Shadrick Goliath?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: Yes, I knew Shadrick.  We were at the same school.  He was a member of the committee until his death.

RUSSELL ALLY: Khutsong Youth Congress or are you speaking about a committee at school?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: KHUSCOU.

RUSSELL ALLY: Did you know Gerry who was mentioned as well, who was a friend.

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: Yes, I know Gerry.

RUSSELL ALLY: Surname, sorry.

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: I do not know his surname, but he was very young at that time.

RUSSELL ALLY: Do you know anybody who knows Gerry who would be able to help us to try and get a statement from Gerry's family.

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: I asked his parents to come and give in a statement, but they have not arrived yet.  I will make a follow-up on that.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much that.  You say, the second part of that question that I asked you, the name Skeepers.  Is this the same Skeepers who was mentioned in the statement with regard to Shadrick?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: Yes, it is the same Skeepers.

RUSSELL ALLY: Do you know his full name?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: It is John Skeepers.

RUSSELL ALLY: So there was, the police clearly knew you then if
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you said you were detained in 1985, you were a public violence charge, 1985.  You were acquitted.  You were then 
detained in 1996.  You were released in 1987.  Did anything happen after 1987 with you and the police or was that the last of your encounters with the police?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: That was the last encounter with them.

RUSSELL ALLY: Just one last question.  Doctor Richardson, who you said, did Doctor Richardson actually examine you?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: Yes, he did examine me.

RUSSELL ALLY: Did he do quite extensive tests on you because you say that Doctor Richardson said that you will not be able to have children.  Were there a number of tests done on you by Doctor Richardson?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: And those medical records, did you give them, you may have given them in.  I do not see them in the file, but you have the medical records, I am sure.  Where are these medical records.

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: They are there at Namta, at Doctor Richardson's rooms in Cavendish Chambers.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much Rambo.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mogapi, I just want to ask you one or two questions please.  What are you doing now, what is your work.

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: I am a statement taker for the Truth Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we just go back to 1986.  What was actually happening in the township at the time?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: There was war in the township.  It was during the bus boycott.  We did not allow the buses to come into the township so that the black people should be able to work for themselves.  The buses were not allowed in the township
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and due to that we fought with the police because they were rude.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Seroke asked you about the 700 people who were arrested.  You said there were 11 other people who were tortured.  Can you give us the names of some of those people?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: Douglas van Rooyen is the one I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Not the people who tortured you, but some of your Comrades who were also tortured with you.

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: Yes, I remember them.  The first one is Douglas van Rooyen, Douglas van Rooyen.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Douglas van Rooyen, is he the policeman who tortured you.  Is that right?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: No he was not.

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: He is one of our Comrades.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, sorry, because you have also mentioned some van Rooyen who tortured you.  Anybody else that you can remember?  Any other people that you can remember?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: The other one is Nicholas Mashlapo, but he is deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you tell us about Nicholas Mashlapo?

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: If I can remember clearly, he died somewhere there between 1992 and 1993, but he was killed by Shenga's group in the township.