Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

CHAIRPERSON: Because there may be various people who are going to be questioning you and you feel you are all right?

MR ZWANE: I will answer any question.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, thank you.  Hanif?

MR VALLY: Thank you Archbishop.   Mr Zwane, you face 38 counts of very serious charges, you were found guilty of 9 counts of murder and we heard you say that you were not responsible for the deaths of Miss Dudu Chili's niece and that the confession was forced out of you.

MR ZWANE: Yes, Sir.

MR VALLY: Are you saying you're not guilty of the other 8 murders as well?

MR ZWANE: I will answer you - as I've stated before, I've been an MK cadre ...(tape ends)

MR VALLY: You say besides the death of three policemen, you are not responsible for any of the other murders?

MR ZWANE: No.

MR VALLY: Let's go on.  It's already been put to you that Mrs Mandela said you stayed occasionally at the house and you deny this?

MR ZWANE: Yes I deny.

MR VALLY: Your reference Mr Semenya, second Section 29 page 148.  Are you called Bobo?

MR ZWANE: Yes that's my nickname.

MR VALLY: You say you were trained by an MK member called Vusile?

MR ZWANE: Yes.

MR VALLY: He is also got a nickname, do you know his nickname?

MR ZWANE: Yes I know it.

MR VALLY: What is it?

MR ZWANE: Mshoshovi, the other one is V.

MR VALLY: V for Victor?

MR ZWANE: I don't know, I just call him that.

MR VALLY: Do you know his surname?

MR ZWANE: I don't know his surname.

MR VALLY: If I say it's Sefako would you disagree?

MR ZWANE: I will not disagree because previously when the MK guys usually meet us they never told us their name and their surname, we will just be told  the name which you should call him by, that's all.

MR VALLY: You've never gone into exile for military training have you?

MR ZWANE: No I just undergone a crash course inside the country.

MR VALLY: So you got crash courses within the country?

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

MR VALLY: You say you were trained by Vusile and later on by Oupa Sehere?

MR ZWANE: That was a further training because Oupa Sehere was another cadre.

MR VALLY: And you met Oupa Sehere at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

MR VALLY: Where did you meet Vusile?

MR ZWANE: I met Vusile, Mkotcho made a contact for me with Vusile.

MR VALLY: I am sorry I missed that answer, where did you meet Vusile?

MR ZWANE: My other comrade by the name of Mkotcho got me into contact with Vusile.

MR VALLY: What's Mkotcho's first name?

MR ZWANE: Wilson Sedlwane.

MR VALLY: I beg your pardon?

MR ZWANE: Wilson Sdelwane.

MR VALLY: You were a member of the Mandela United Football Club?

MR ZWANE: No.

MR VALLY: You moved around with the youths who were members of the Football Club?

MR ZWANE: No.

MR VALLY: Did you ever move around with the youths who used to be at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

MR ZWANE: To answer that question, while we were still trying to form the Mandela Football Club, as I have already stated that I was arrested during the formation of the Mandela Football Club in the process of the formation of the Mandela Football Club, it's then I got arrested for my activities.

MR VALLY: Which year was this?

MR ZWANE: That was in February 1987.

MR VALLY: You told us you never stayed at Mrs Mandela's house, she said you stayed there occasionally.  You say you did not hang around with the youths, yet you happen to meet Mr Oupa Sehere there at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house and he offered you further military training.  Can you explain this to us?

MR ZWANE: Ja I can explain to this.  If I said I never stayed at Mrs Mandela's place that - I don't think that implies that I never visited Mrs Mandela's place.  I was denying that I have stayed at Mandela's place, but I usually visited Mrs Mandela's place, not stayed there.

MR VALLY: How often did you visit her?

MR ZWANE: Oh if I've got the chance not having so much school work, because I was attending school by then, then I will go there because some of the guys I knew they were hanging there, I will go there spend some times.

MR VALLY: Regularly at weekends?

MR ZWANE: No, no, no, no even during the week when I've got the chance just go and see the friends there, I will go there and see the friends.

MR VALLY: So you knew the people who hung around by Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house and you joined them?

MR ZWANE: I knew them very well, people who I know hung around Mandela's place were my members, as I have stated, they were members of the Soweto Youth Congress.

MR VALLY: Did you ever travel around with them in a group?

MR ZWANE: Before they hang at Mrs Mandela's place while we were still....

MR VALLY: I am talking about when they were at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's place.

MR ZWANE: No, I spent most of the time in prison, I never...

MR VALLY: No the question I am asking is, you said when you had spare time you would go there, you knew the people well.

MR ZWANE: Thank you.

MR VALLY: Did you ever move around with them elsewhere?

MR ZWANE: Move around?

MR VALLY: Go to funerals, go to parties, go to birthdays.

MR ZWANE: No I can't recall moving around with them parties, birthdays and ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Go to shebeens?

MR ZWANE: Shebeens we usually go, we grew up going together.

MR VALLY: So you have gone to shebeens with them?

MR ZWANE: Yes I have.

MR VALLY: Have you ever worn the tracksuit of the Club?

MR ZWANE: Yes I did.

MR VALLY: Often?

MR ZWANE: No I wore it once and I was arrested and it was taken by the security police.

MR VALLY: Was that the only time you wore it?

MR ZWANE: Ja, I think once, that's the only time I wore it, once.

MR VALLY: And when your friends moved around, those friends who stayed in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house and you went to a shebeen with them ...(intervention)

MR ZWANE: Could you repeat your question.

MR VALLY: When your friends went to shebeens did they ever wear these tracksuits?

MR ZWANE: I can't say no, I don't know, I never ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: When you were with them.

MR ZWANE: No, they never wore their tracksuit when they ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Did you ever go to any funerals with them?

MR ZWANE: With the Mandela tracksuits?

MR VALLY: Did you ever go to funerals with your friends who stayed at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

MR ZWANE: Only once.

MR VALLY: Did you wear a tracksuit then?

MR ZWANE: I can't recall if in that funeral I attended with them we wore ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Is it possible you wore a tracksuit then?

MR ZWANE: I cannot say because I (...indistinct) that I cannot recall.

UNKNOWN: With respect Mr Chair, if I may just interject, I do believe that Mr Vally is pushing this point a bit too far.  He might have worn the tracksuit once and he went to Mrs Mandela's house occasionally to visit with his friends, I cannot understand the line of questioning.....

YASMINE SOOKA: Miss Sita with respect the witness is testifying and I think Mr Vally should be allowed to pursue this line of questioning because it's very important in terms of the evidence he's giving and the fact that he says he's been sentenced and convicted unfairly.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

MR VALLY: I want to put to you, and I want to go further by the evidence you've given us that you were a lot more involved than you claim.  You first tell us that you were arrested when the Club was being formed so you were there at the very inception.

MR ZWANE: Can you repeat that please.

MR VALLY: You were there at the very inception of the Club, when the Club was being formed, that's when you were arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: You were there at the beginning, you are using a word that might ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Oh I beg your pardon Archbishop, you were there at the very beginning.

MR ZWANE: Ja.

MR VALLY: Is that right?

MR ZWANE: That's right.

MR VALLY: You've worn the tracksuit at least once.