Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

MR NGUBANE: The term big fish, referring to some ANC people, are you familiar with that term?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I know that term.

MR NGUBANE: You sounded a little bit hesitant later on, can you explain what you understood by that term when it was used?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It was actually referring to people who were important.

MR NGUBANE: I see, and when those big fishes were killed, did you receive any financial handshake?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR NGUBANE: You just received a pat, that you have done a good work and there was no money paid to you, is that what you are saying?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, Romeo Mbambo, (indistinct) Mkhize and Israel Hlongwane, when did you  meet them for the first time?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I met (indistinct) in Caprivi and on coming back, when I was at Hammersdale I then met Israel Hlongwane.  When I formed the Empangeni hit squad,  he was brought to me that is (indistinct) Mkhize.

MR NGUBANE: Did you give them specific instructions to target certain people, specific people?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That was done by the eSikhawini leadership, people like Bebebeyela and Mrs Mbuyasi, Chief Mataba, Prince Gideon Zulu and other leadership in eSikhawini.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I think the question was Mr Luthuli, did you ever give instructions for them to hit a specific target?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  And your policy at that stage is it correct that when you sent this hit squad people, you mentioned certain people to be eliminated?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: It was not your policy that the people who formed the core of the hit squad should attack at random and kill sometimes, innocent people?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, such things did happen as well.

MR NGUBANE: Well, I don't want you to misunderstand yourself.  I want, I also don't want me to misunderstand you.  Do I understand you correctly as meaning that your policy was all embracing, it gave specific instructions to the hit squad members to kill, not only the ANC people but also the innocent people at large?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, I don't agree with that.

MR NGUBANE: Now, let me put my initial question.  Did you at any stage instruct the hit squad members to kill people other than specific targeted people?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR NGUBANE: Your answer has covered a lot of what I wanted to ask from you.  Mr Chairman, at this stage may I just point out that I was approached at tea time by Mr Khuzwayo of Claremont and Mrs Mkhize of Claremont and they asked me to ask certain questions about the Claremont incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Ngubane.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.  Now, when you undertook a certain operation, did you make sure that the person that you wanted to kill was an ANC or an UDF member?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: What investigations did you make about Khuzwayo that he in fact was an ANC or UDF member and he was active at Claremont?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: There is nothing that we did, except to say that we were told by M.Z. Khumalo and Yamile himself.

MR NGUBANE: Did it occur to you that if you attacked without cross-checking the information that you had received, there was a possibility that you would kill innocent people who had nothing to do with UDF or the ANC?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And what did you do about that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: We would not continue with the operation, we would just stop.

MR NGUBANE: No, my question is not whether you did at some stage ascertain that this man was not an ANC man or an UDF man, my question is if you didn't make thorough investigations about the target, did it occur to you that you might without cross-checking the correctness of the information, hit a person who has nothing to do with the ANC or the UDF?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, such things would happen.

MR NGUBANE: You didn't care to cross-check?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, if we received instructions from a person who was a leader in that area, telling you that this person is such a thing or belonging to this or that organisation, you would not ask or investigate to ascertain as to whether the person is indeed a member of that organisation.

MR NGUBANE: Now, Nicholas Mkhize of Claremont, do you know that, does that name sound familiar to you?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Did you participate in his killing?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR NGUBANE: Did you participate in the killing or in the conspiracy of his killing?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR NGUBANE: Do you know who killed him?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Was that man under your command?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, but we were connected in so far as work is concerned, we were keeping in touch.

MR NGUBANE: Right.   As far as you know, was the killing of Mr Mkhize a political killing?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Now, can you tell the Honourable members of the Committee as to who killed Mkhize?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Mkhize was killed by Jerry Mbanda and he was with Zweli Dhlamini, not this Zweli Dhlamini.
	And the instruction came from Captain Kanyele of BSI here at KwaMashu.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.  Now I will go to the eSikhawini incidents, just for you to give us an overview of the whole thing.
	Did you know specific targets at eSikhawini?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Can you recall them?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: People like Bongani Msomi and Professor I am not sure if it was Nduli and other leaders, COSATU leaders.  I just cannot recall the names very well.

MR NGUBANE: You say these people were popular, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Did you participate in their injury or in their killing?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR NGUBANE: All that you are saying is that whatever might have happened to this people which is injurious, was the work of ... rings any bells?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR NGUBANE: Does the name Nafta Nqomalo, does it ...

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR NGUBANE: And Detective Sergeant, do you know anything about him, sorry Detective Sergeant Khumalo?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.  Yes, just a little bit, I know something a little.

MR NGUBANE: Well, you know a bit about him, you didn't participate in his killing?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane, when you use the word participate, do you mean actually in regard to the actual killing or do you include planning or handing down an order that had come from the local leadership?  Perhaps you should make that clear.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you very much Mr Chairman.  Did you order anyone to kill Detective Sergeant Khumalo?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR NGUBANE: And did you order anyone to kill a gentleman known as Nathi Gomedi?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR NGUBANE: If any person were to come to this Committee and tell the Committee that you ordered the killing of Taliwe Makwanasi, Nafta Nqomalo, Detective Sergeant Khumalo, Nathi Gomedi, that person would not be telling the truth?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

MR NGUBANE: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane.  Mr Hewit, do you have any questions to put to this witness?

MR HEWIT: We do Mr Chairman, but there are various document that we wish to go through before we commence our cross-examination.  I don't know whether my learned friend Mr Booyens, might be in a position to proceed.