Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-02-17

MR KOOPEDI: Please go on.
MR MAKHUBU
"Then on the Sunday that he died he arrived at my home in the morning, and I told him that we had an important matter to discuss.  I cannot quite remember where he wanted to go at the time.  I said that is fine he can go wherever he wishes to go, but he must make sure that he returns because there is that important matter we have to discuss, we have a mission to accomplish.  That was the last we saw each other, it was during the morning.  Then he left.
		I was then in the location for the duration of the day.  In the afternoon Mr Dube arrived and we were together.  We had arranged that we would meet, the two of us would meet on that Sunday.  As we were still sitting there, Sicelo arrived, that is myself and Mr Dube.  
		At that time I had not informed Mr Dube that I had met Sicelo.  I then said that I should go and telephone Sipho and Precious.  I went into the house and I called them and I told them to be on standby because we were going to meet as the commander was present.
		When I came out of the house I found them standing outside and when I got to them the commander showed me something, a device that was broken and he said, do you see this and I said yes, and he said this is a transmitter which Sicelo had been carrying.
		The situation at that time just changed, he said we should talk alone.  I told Sicelo to get into the house and then I asked from the commander what should be do now, because we had agreed before that if we ever meet up with him we should question him about his whereabouts, but now that there was this new element, the transmitter, the situation had changed.
		I said that it would be problematic to interrogate him, the option that would not present us with problems would be to eliminate him.  We thereafter called him and we left the house.  We went to Leolo(?), that is the three of us.  
		When we arrived there at Leolo it was about, it was just before dusk.  I then went to collect Sipho in Siboseng(?).  I left Dube and Sicelo there.  Thereafter we all went to Dube Extension.  When we arrived there I knew what my task was, it was to shoot him.  There was a bit tree in that area and we asked him to sit down and I withdrew my gun and shot him, and that was the end of it."

MR KOOPEDI: Now after the shooting, were you ordered to do anything by your commander?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: ...(no English translation)

MR KOOPEDI: No, I am referring to after the shooting, after Sicelo was shot, what happened?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: We left him there and dispersed.

MR KOOPEDI: And were you given any particular instructions about this matter, do you talk about it, don't you talk about it?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: The agreement was that we were not going to discuss it with anybody else, it would remain amongst the four of us.

MR KOOPEDI: Now you know that for you to ask for amnesty and perhaps get amnesty the offence or deed that you did should be political, would you say the killing of Sicelo was politically motivated?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I believe that at that time and even now the reason for killing him was political, it wasn't personal.

MR KOOPEDI: Other than perhaps it being an order that you should eliminate him, do you think that, in your personal opinion, was there a political objective that you achieve or that you sought to achieve by killing Sicelo?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Personally I believe, yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Which is?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Firstly, we operated as an underground unit.  Besides the unit that I was involved in I was also involved in other individuals and other units and if any person amongst us would be arrested it would have an impact on our struggle, therefore I felt that it was better to lose the life of one person rather than to lose the lives of many other people, which would have a negative impact on the struggle.

ADV SANDI: Did Sicelo know that you were involved with other people from other units?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: In most instances I would inform them that they may not be able to get hold of me because I would be busy with other people.

ADV SANDI: Did he know who those people were?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't believe he knew them.

MR KOOPEDI: Is there anything that you wish to add to the brief testimony you've just given?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: What I can say is, I am grateful to be granted the opportunity to explain about this issue because I know that it was a controversial issue and the family didn't know what had happened, even other comrades didn't know what had happened, but because of my commitment then to secrecy, it was not possible for me to divulge the information, but now I have been afforded that opportunity.

CHAIRPERSON: You said a moment ago that "we operated as an underground unit".

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, that's what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do as an underground unit?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: We carried out operations.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm asking you what operations.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Fighting the apartheid regime.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I am not certain whether I should answer questions regarding to my political activities in general or those concerning the issue of Sicelo.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if you don't want to make a full and frank disclosure you need not, and your application will be refused, do you understand that?  I take it your lawyer has told you.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I have requested amnesty for the death of Sicelo Dhlomo.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, nothing else, you have not made mention of any other activities that you conducted, that you carried out, for which you say you would be entitled to amnesty, so I'm asking you what other actions you took in conjunction with Sicelo.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: With regards to Sicelo we had not carried out an operation with him.

CHAIRPERSON: So since the time he was a member of your unit you did not carry out operations as a unit, is that what you are saying?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: No, we had not performed one.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not carry out operations from the time Sicelo joined your unit?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, that is what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: So he had no knowledge of any operations carried out by you.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR KOOPEDI: Now finally, you state on paragraph 11(b) of your application form - that would be page 24, Chairperson, in the bundle of documents - that the order for killing Sicelo was given by I J Dube, would that be the first applicant who appeared here?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, that's him.

MR KOOPEDI: And do you think that you were under any obligation to follow an order issued by him?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I followed an order that I understood well.

MR KOOPEDI: There are no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

ADV SANDI: Sorry, that is not very clear to me.  When you followed this order, were you acting freely, would you have chosen not to have followed the order, what was the situation?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I do not quite understand the question.

ADV SANDI: When you followed this order from Dube, I want to find out from you were you acting freely and voluntarily, you were not forced by Dube to carry out his order.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: He did not force me, he issued out an order and I followed it.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get the pistol from?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I had it in my possession.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get it from?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I had obtained it from the commander.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you get it?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: When we formed the unit I had the gun at that time.

ADV SANDI: Where was Sipho and Precious when you shot and killed Sicelo?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: They were present.