Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-04

MR BLACK: Madam Chair, I do have photographs of fences that have been broken down, etcetera, in their actions in the morning, but I won't hand them up if the committee feels it's not relevant.

CHAIRPERSON: But how would it impinge on what he did later on?

MR BLACK: Well it's his experience what took place that very morning.   The evidence will come out that the soldiers swept the premises and after they were satisfied, they alleged that there were hidden arms and ammunition there, as appears in the affidavit, so I'm not... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BLACK: ...pressing.   And... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I think we have read that evidence.

MR BLACK: Yes, the... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: And would like to - we would like you to lead him on anything that you wanted highlighted further than... (intervention).

MR BLACK: Yes.   No, I think... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: ...how it has been presented in his affidavit.

MR BLACK: Yes.   Well, he's able to present it better.   What his idea was, after they'd found no evidence and then later on two men arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you proceed from that?

MR BLACK: Thank you.   Now, after the soldiers had damaged your property and swept your premises, what was their purpose, did they tell you, as you've said in your affidavit, they were searching for arms?

VOICE SAMBO: Yes, they told me.

MR BLACK: Did they find anything?

VOICE SAMBO: At my place, there was no ammunition or firearm which was found which belonged to me, except for the gun which was brought at my place by the security branch at night while I was sleeping, I didn't even see them, it was raining like it's raining today.

CHAIRPERSON: You know, Mr Black... (intervention).

MR BLACK: No, but Mr Sambo - may I please clarify?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   The kind of evidence that Mr Sambo is adducing is going to play havoc with our record.

MR BLACK: No, I want to clear it up, he's misunderstood.  Mr Sambo, I'm talking upon the day, not the previous occasion, we've already got that in affidavit, where they found a gun that was planted and it was dry and it had been raining, so clearly nothing happened to you after that, I'm talking about the day, we've got now past all that, the committee don't want to hear that because it's on affidavit, okay, so we're now getting to - they want to get to the day of when the actual shooting took place, when the policeman was shot by yourself.   Now on that day, on that morning... (intervention).   What did he say?

MR LAX: He said they found nothing.

MR BLACK: Thank you.   Now on that day, we want to get the sequence of events now, the soldiers arrived, they damaged your property, they found nothing, they had extensive search and there were no weapons found, then they left, is that correct?

VOICE SAMBO: That's correct.

MR BLACK: Now, what - how did you - what did you think they were doing, were they genuinely looking for weapons, were they preparing the terrain, or what was going on?

VOICE SAMBO: Before I answer this question, are we talking about the very same day of the incident, on the 29th?

MR BLACK: Yes, that's where we've got to now.

VOICE SAMBO: Every time when they came to my place, I used to ask them why they were there.   On that day, they said to me they were looking for guns and they had sniffing dogs which - that were telling them that there were ammunition at my place, or guns.

MR BLACK: Yes, okay, but they found nothing on that day?

VOICE SAMBO: Yes, they found nothing.

MR BLACK: Right.   Now later on on that very day... (intervention).

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Black, he hasn't answered your question.  Your question to him was, what did he think they were doing by coming there and searching, did they have some other purpose or were they just searching, that was your question, he still hasn't answered it.

MR BLACK: What I put to you, Mr Sambo, let's put it this way, let's start the sequence of events as they set out, the soldiers come to your house, they search the house, they look for ammunition and arms, they found nothing.   Later on that day two white men come to your house, okay, and that's when the shooting incident took place.   Now the question that I'm asking you is, why do you think the soldiers first came to your house and then later on you saw two white men coming there?

VOICE SAMBO: When the soldiers left and these two men arrived, I thought these were the people who were coming to assassinate me, I don't know if I'm answering correct your question, if I heard it correctly.

MR BLACK: Ja.   The question that I'm putting to you that, it's not really that important, but the question that I'm putting to you is, soldiers come, they confirm that there's no weapons there, later on you see two white men come there, what do you think the purpose of the soldiers was?

CHAIRPERSON: Can I take it from here, Mr Black?   Mr Sambo, soldiers kept on coming to your house, allegedly to search your house for firearms.   As we have read your papers, in some instances and pertinently on the 22nd of October, they came, searched your house, they even harassed your wife, threatened her with death as well, they kept on coming quite frequently to do one thing, that is to search for weapons, and at every time of that search, no weapons were found by them, yet they continued to come.   You obviously regarded their action as intended to harass you, is it not so?

VOICE SAMBO: I, as a trained comrade... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sambo, respond to the question that I've put to you, did you or did you not regard the actions of the police as nothing but harassment?

VOICE SAMBO: Harassment in that they will kill me as well.

CHAIRPERSON: I want you to confine yourself to questions being put to you.

MR BLACK: Right, Mr Sambo, now did the soldiers confirm that the place is clean, as it were?   Later on that day, after the soldiers had left and confirmed that the place was clean and had swept the place, no weapons were there, you see two white men arrive?

VOICE SAMBO: That's correct.

MR BLACK: Right.   Now in what type of vehicle did they arrive in?

VOICE SAMBO: A white 4 x 4, I've forgotten the model, they had a Moby Jack(?), they were towing a Moby Jack, and there was a Colt Gallant on top.

MR BLACK: Did the vehicle have any, the 4 x 4 have any police identification emblems or any other form of emblem on it?

VOICE SAMBO: There was nothing to identify that car as a police vehicle.    The only thing that I saw on that car is this emblem on the doors, these stickers were on the doors, a Shell emblem.

MR BLACK: Right.   Now, when they arrived in this vehicle with the Shell emblem, I don't want you, for the purposes of this hearing, to have to go into each minute detail as to the factual occurrences during the course of the shooting, unless the committee so require, but as far as the two white men are concerned, what did they do?

VOICE SAMBO: I was in one of my cars and I was resting on my back, I was lying on my back, I was resting there, I saw this car coming and I ignored it, I thought it was a car belonging to a filling station.   After ten minutes, the car came and stopped at a small gate and two men came out from the car.   One of them was a massive guy, like the camera man here in front.   They entered my place and there was a yard where my cars were parked, a big yard, I think four of my cars were parked there, but these were not cars in good condition, I was buying them from a garage in Benoni, from a scrapyard... (intervention).

MR BLACK: Mr Sambo, don't go into all that detail.

CHAIRPERSON: We would need the details in respect of this incident, Mr... (intervention).

MR BLACK: Well, as - if you do... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: ...Black... (intervention).

MR BLACK: ...require that... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: ...you can traverse whatever detail, minute detail.

MR BLACK: Yes.   Okay, carry on and tell what happened?