Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1996-05-13

N JACK MENERA: There is just one thing that I want to tell the Commission before I keep quiet, especially when we come to the issue of a firearm that I took from Edward Phelane. When the Commission interrogates him, please I want it to be clear. It was asked in the court about this firearm.  Mr Edward Phelane was asked about this firearm.  Mr Phelane, you agree that Jack stole this firearm from you and he was asked the question, where did you get hold of this firearm? And he said he was given that gun by a policeman.  He said the policeman was paying him with this gun, seemingly the policeman owed him. Why do I include this issue.  I want the Commission to be clear that the gun did not come to me according to the story he put forward to the judge.
	I have indicated that the gang was in cahoots with the police and the policeman who gave Edward Phelane the gun had an intention of Edward Phelane using this gun against us members of the ANC.  I want that to be clear.  He agreed that a policeman owed him and he gave him this firearm instead.  I am giving you the real reason.  That is my point of view.  The reason for him to get a gun was to come and use it against us.  Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MEMANI
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR PHELANE (VICTIM)

JUDGE WILSON: Who is going to ask questions first?  Does Mr Phelane intend to, as a victim to ask questions?  I think he should ask his questions first and then you can come up afterwards.

MR PHELANE: The Applicant's story so long Mr Chairman that it can take us the whole afternoon.  I'll be very brief. I will just start from 1985 when he said the thing started. According to my records in 1985 the applicant, he himself, they formed a gang in our township there. These gangster were fighting against the scholars. They were scholars there at the primary school or a secondary school ...(indistinct). They started to boycott the Afrikaans and then they started roaming the township, not attending classes, they did not want Afrikaans in their schools. One of the police was a member of the school board there. Then this policeman, it happened that his son was fighting, one of ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Phelane...(intervention)

MR PHELANE: COSAS boys in the township, that's where the trouble started.

UNKNOWN: Mr Phelane, I was going to interrupt you but I see one of my colleagues also wanted to interrupt you.  In fact can you stop for a minute. I want to discuss something with...

JUDGE WILSON: I want you to understand the procedure that is followed. At the moment you are entitled this applicant questions about the evidence he has given, and it would be wise to ask him questions about matters that you dispute, but you will then be given an opportunity yourself to give evidence to tell us your version, so there is no need to put the whole of your version to him but you should put anywhere where there is a very marked difference of fact, that you should put to him so he can answer it, then ...(intervention)

MR PHELANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Applicant, when did you join the ANC?  In what year?

JUDGE WILSON: Sorry Mr Phelane, I'm afraid we will have to take a very short adjournment at this stage, I gather the applicant would like a short adjournment so we will take a short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Phelane did...(indistinct) inform you that you're entitled to a legal representative who could represent you and ask questions on your behalf?

MR PHELANE: According to the report I got or the notice, I asked for a legal aid, I did not get a reply and I faxed a letter to Cape Town somewhere.  The fax was sent to Cape Town for a legal aid, I did not get any reply.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know anything about it Ms Thabetha?

UNKNOWN: No I don't know anything about it except that when we set form to our procedure that we usually annex a form where if a person wants to apply for legal aid he may do so, but what happens is that the form after it has been filled up it's faxed to our office whereby Mr Machaka arranges for a legal representation.  All I know is that I got a call from a Mr Ishmael two weeks back who said that he was Mr Phelane's Legal rep but he was in Joburg and he heard that Mr Phelane was arranging to get legal representation from the Legal Aid. So all along I thought he did have legal representation, but when I spoke to him today he informed me that he did not have legal representation but was ready to represent himself. So that that's as far as I know.

UNKNOWN: In fact, last time when we were here Mr Phelane, you remember you saw us, you were here.

MR PHELANE: Yes I was here last time.

UNKNOWN: And I think, you can correct me if I'm wrong, I think the question of, you were informed then that you could have a legal representative if you wanted.  That was when we were at Breton High School.  You remember we spoke to you when, at the veranda of the staff room, when we spoke to you in the afternoon.

MR PHELANE: When the news was faxed me then there was an attached form, so I phoned Cape Town and they gave me a fax number, the Cape Town office.

UNKNOWN: No what I mean is that you do know that you're entitled to a legal representative.  You're aware that you that you've got a right?

MR PHELANE: Yes I'm aware.

UNKNOWN: That was discussed with you at Breton High School time. Is that correct?

MR PHELANE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: I'm not blaming you in any way but I just want to clear this up that you are aware of such...

ADV DE JAGER: And you received the form and did you fill in the form and fax it to Cape Town?

JUDGE WILSON: That fax number on the back, is it a fax number, 021 233280?

MR PHELANE: That's correct Mr Chairman, that's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Is that the...

MR PHELANE: It's the one I received from Cape Town when I phoned them.

JUDGE WILSON: That is the Amnesty fax number?

MR PHELANE: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: When did you fax it? Oh the 21st of April '97?

MR PHELANE: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: It went to the Amnesty Office and they should have attended to it.

UNKNOWN: Mr Machaka deals with legal aid forms so I wouldn't know.

JUDGE WILSON: Well it seems that you did try Mr Phelane and that due to some clerical error somewhere it wasn't dealt with.  Are you prepared to go on representing yourself?

MR PHELANE: I think so Mr Chairman, I want to get the matter over.

JUDGE WILSON: As I have explained to you, it's not necessary, nobody will draw any inferences against you if you do not put everything in cross examination, so I think you should only ask questions of relevant matters that you think this witness has perhaps forgotten to tell us about or should tell us about and as I have said, you will get an opportunity to give your version later.  It's not necessary to put the whole of that to this witness in these circumstances.

MR PHELANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  When did you Mr Applicant join with the ANC's? In what year?

N JACK MENERA: It was late in 1985 if I'm not mistaken, it was in August or September.

MR PHELANE: In that year who was the actual leader of the ANC, the chairman and so forth and the youth and all such things?

N JACK MENERA: Are you referring to Brandfort or nation-wide?

MR PHELANE: The chairperson or the chairlady, whoever was in charge with the ANC during that time in 1985?  Was there an ANC movement during 1985 at Brandfort?

N JACK MENERA: The organisation was known as Majesmasweyu Youth Congress.

MR PHELANE: Mr Applicant, are you not telling the Commission a lie, because don't you think that during that time all these parties were banned and restricted?

N JACK MENERA: I have explained Matemasu Youth Congress.

MR PHELANE: Do you know anything about COSAS?

N JACK MENERA: Yes I think COSAS is a student organisation.  I was out of school at that time and I had nothing to do with school issues.

MR PHELANE: Did you ever attend a school?

N JACK MENERA: Yes.

MR PHELANE: Where.