Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-04

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, do I understand you correctly, is your evidence not that you have a specific way in fixing your signature to documents and this is not the manner in which you do it?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Now I'd like you to just look at it finally and just give us a final opinion as to whether or not this is your handwriting, not signature, handwriting and I'm referring only to the place where Matanzima is written.  Again Ms Tanzer points out the place to you.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: What I'm saying is I do not dispute that I may have written that.

MR LOWIES: Now the next page that I'd like you to turn to and again a request from you, your opinion, it's page 22.  This your handwriting?  I see there are two places where the name Matanzima appears, is that your handwriting at the bottom of the page?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't see this clearly.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, would you just speak up please, I can't here you.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: What is written here is illegible.

MR LOWIES: I'll give you a better copy which is available, have a look at this one and see there are two places?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is possible that I may have written that word Matanzima.

MR LOWIES: On both occasions?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying that it is possible that I may have written it.

MR LOWIES: Now yesterday you denied it?  Sorry, I retract.  If you could just bear with me please Chair?

MR LAX: Mr Lowies, it wasn't put to him yesterday at all.  The only pages that were put to him yesterday were 6, 13, 15 and 17.

MR LOWIES: I'm indebted to the Committee.  Now Chair, I've compared notes and the way I see it is that he said that he did sign this statement, it was put to him at a later stage.

MR LAX: Yes at a later stage, quite right.

MR LOWIES: But still, there was some confusion I must say.
	Now you will recall that the whole issue about your statements so forth arose whilst I was still busy putting to you the discrepancies in your version and I put to you it's riddled with inconsistencies and the second point that I would like you to comment on is the following.  You first led us to believe that you would never have disclosed the Sebokeng attack up until today had it not been for the fact that you were tortured by the police.  Do you still agree with me?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I do.

MR LOWIES: But yet in this case you will come forward out of your own accord, no threats made, correct or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: And Mr Nosenga, on your own version you have also committed acts of theft before, correct?  Stealing cars, breaking into shops and houses, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: And when you were tortured on your version by the police you never conveyed to them that you broke into motor vehicles, stole cars, broke into shops, stole motor vehicles etc, or did you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I did not.

MR LOWIES: Why not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I would have not told them unless they had arrested me for it just like they did in Parys.

MR LOWIES: But in Parys you were arrested on a different charge yet you confess to murder?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I confessed to it because I was tortured.  When I was arrested in Parys it was for a stolen vehicle.

MR LOWIES: Who arrested you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know those police officers, they were patrolling officers.

MR LOWIES: Who tortured you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was Havenga, Captain Havenga and others.

MR LOWIES: Can you mention the names of any others?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They were white people who used to work with Black officers at Leeukop.

MR LOWIES: Was Peens one of them?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Peens tortured me when I was in Vereeniging Police Station, he was not present when I was being tortured by the others.

MR LOWIES: Why did Peens torture you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He said if I ever divulged information with regards to the attacks that were happening in the Vaal Triangle they would kill me, including that one of Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: When did he torture you like this?  Before or after the arrest on the murder charges?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was after I had been charged.

MR LOWIES: Did Chaka torture you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes they were all involved in threatening me not to divulge information I had about the attacks in the Vaal Triangle.

MR LOWIES: Did Rooikop torture you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No he did not it was only Peens and Chaka.

MR LOWIES: And Danie, did he torture you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR LOWIES: Now how did it happen that they tortured you?  Did they just come to you out of the blue and say you mustn't talk or what happened?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They came to me and they told me that if I ever mentioned the Vaal Triangle incidents I would be killed.  I was at the Vereeniging Police Station.

MR LOWIES: Why were you there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was the murder and robbery unit who were taking me to that Vereeniging Police Station.

MR LOWIES: But for what purpose?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know.

MR LOWIES: Were you already convicted?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was still attending trial, the trial was still in progress at that time.

MR LOWIES: So whilst the trial was in progress in the Supreme Court you were taken to Vanderbijlpark?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They took me to Vereeniging, from there they transferred me to Leeukop and from there I was taken to Vereeniging, from there I went to Leeukop and from there I was transferred to Meyerton.

MR LOWIES: For what purpose?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know because I was being tortured and being made to point out the spots where I had committed these offences.

MR LOWIES: And it's then that Peens came to you whilst in custody?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember the time.  He came to Vereeniging, he was in Chaka's company, I think they were driving a Sierra but I do not remember the exact time.

MR LOWIES: You said you were tortured to make pointings out, or not?

MR LAX: He didn't say that, he said - is that correct - he said I don't know, being tortured and made to point out where these events occurred, so he did actually say that, you're quite right.

MR LOWIES: Now where - what was the reason, what did you have to point out?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was Captain Havenga and them who informed me that I should take them to the spots where I had shot people and also point out where I stayed in KwaMadala Hostel.

MR LOWIES: And this already started after your hearing in the Supreme Court or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: My case was in progress in Leeukop.  It was at the regional court.

MR LOWIES: Were you convicted in the regional court on murder, on these murder charges for which you're applying for amnesty?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was convicted in the Supreme Court for murder and attempted murder charges.

MR LOWIES: No, there's some confusion then, what was the situation regarding the hearing in the regional court, what were you charged with there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: My case was transferred to ...(indistinct) where they transferred it to Vereeniging.

MR LOWIES: What was the nature of the charges at the regional court?

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't the position Mr Lowies, that he appeared in the regional court in connection with the charges and he was subsequently arraigned for trial in the High Court?  Well is that right Mr Nosenga?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You appeared in the Regional Court in connection with the same charges but you were only convicted by the High - your case was subsequently transferred to the High Court where you were convicted?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and was this after the Boipatong Massacre?