Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-30

CHAIRPERSON: The Khubeka incident hearing will only be commencing tomorrow, Tuesday at this venue.  I'm mentioning it now because I believe there might be some people who are here today who have an interest in that.  So the Khubeka matter will start tomorrow and today we'll deal with the Lalla and Gordhan matter, but before we start I'd just like to briefly introduce the Panel.  On my right is Advocate Bosman, she is a Member of the Amnesty Committee of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.  She is an advocate, she's from the Cape.  On my left is Mr Ilan Lax, he is an attorney from Pietermartizburg, also a Member of the Amnesty Committee and I'm Selwyn Miller, I'm a judge of the High Court attached to the Transkei Division of that court and I'm also a Member of the Amnesty Committee.  I would like the legal representatives to kindly place themselves on record.

MR VISSER: If it pleases you Chairperson and Members of the Committee, my name is Louis Visser, I'm instructed by Wagener Muller Attorneys of Pretoria.  In the present application I appear for one person only, that is Colonel Botha.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser.

MR NEL: Thank you Chairperson, may it please you and your members, my name is Christo Nel and I represent three applicants in this matter of the Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla, namely Mr Greyling, Mr Duhr and Mr Bothma.  Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you and is it correct Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla that you'll be appearing for yourselves?

MR GORDHAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LALLA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I think we'll take the applicants in the order that they appear on the documents.  We'll start with Hendrik Johannes Petrus Botha.

MR VISSER: As it pleases you Chairperson.  Mr Botha is available, he has no objection to taking the prescribed oath and he will give his evidence in Afrikaans.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla, the proceedings are simultaneously translated, you'll have to use this ...(indistinct)

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Chairperson, before I commence leading the evidence of the witness it might be helpful to you if I gave you a very brief background against which the present incident played off.  Chairperson, you are well acquainted with the document which we have been handed in at previous amnesty hearings, "Die Algemene Agtergrond tot Amnestie Aansoeke" - The General Background to Amnesty Applications and you have heard us also address in argument where we refer to this document and I hope that and I trust that I won't have to take you through that again?

CHAIRPERSON: No, I am fully acquainted with it Mr Visser and I'm sure my colleagues are as well.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Chairperson, as far as the present hearings are concerned we added two documents to that and I've been told by yourself that you have studied those documents in the week?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I had an opportunity of reading these and I have studied them.  In fact I've studied more than two documents.

MR VISSER: Yes, I'm certain.  Chairperson, the background to the present incident is precipitated by the discovery of an operation called Vula as you now are aware.  This occurred after the arrest of a certain Mr Ndaba on the 7th July 1990 at a time when there were serious talks about negotiations and in fact certain negotiations have already commenced between the government and other important groupings, political groupings, in the country including the ANC/SACP Alliance.
	Chairperson, one thing led to another and on the 12th July while two members of the security branch of Durban were observing Mr Nyanda, Mr Siphiwe Nyanda, they got the impression that he had become aware of their watching him and he was then arrested.  That arrest was immediately followed by a number of arrests.  The evidence was in previous incidents before his Lordship, Mr Justice Wilson, as the Chairman, that 12 to 15 people were arrested on the 12th July.  Those people included according to the evidence, Chairperson, Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla apparently because of the shortage of space for Section 29 detention facilities, both Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla were detained in Bethlehem in the Free State.
	Chairperson, just one last bit of information.  At the time during 1990 and also before that the security branch members in Port Natal here in Durban became aware that information was leaked out from security headquarters and they suspected that there was a mole in security branch.  The name of this person was The Owl, O-W-L, and when Mr Maharaj gave evidence last week, Chairperson, he actually confirmed this.  In fact he went further to say that there was more than one person of the ANC which had been infiltrated into the security branch.  With that brief background, Chairperson, I now beg leave to lead the witness.
	Mr Botha - oh yes, Chairperson, my attorney just reminds me, we have made summaries of the evidence of Mr Botha.  I saw fit to do that in two documents, Chairperson, we will lead the evidence on both these gentlemen's assaults simultaneously but perhaps if you could mark - well could first of all the general background remain as Exhibit A, B and C, those exhibits which you already have before you, Chairperson.  "Algemene Agtergrond tot Amnestie Aansoeke" is Exhibit A, an extract of chapter 17 of The Other Side of the Story, Exhibit B and then C.

CHAIRPERSON: That will be the Operation Vula, the article?

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: By Dr Robert Henderson.

MR VISSER: Yes correct, we've been referring to that document as the Gail Wannenburg document because those are the first words you'll read at the top of the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes.

MR VISSER: Well can this then be Exhibit D Chairperson, that is the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: This will be the one relating to Mr Gordhan?

MR VISSER: Mr Gordhan is D and Mr Lalla will be E.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan, Mr Lalla, do you have these documents?

MR GORDHAN: I've only just received it, Chairperson, that's being an English speaking person places me at a distinct disadvantage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Yes Chairperson, we will go through the whole document and it will be translated as we go on.  It's a very brief document.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you have these other Exhibits A, B and C?

MR GORDHAN: I've just been handed them, thank you.

MR VISSER: Mnr Botha, u het van tevore reeds getuig voor die Amnestie Kommittee tydens hierdie sitting in Durban en ook in November verlede jaar, is dit korrek?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Korrek Mnr die Voorsitter.

MR VISSER: U het ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you getting the translation Ms Thabethe?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not either.  Sorry which channel are we on?  Channel 2.  Mr Gordhan, Mr Lalla are you on channel 2?

MR LAX: There may be a technical problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll just leave it to the sound technician and he'll take a look and then Mr Visser if you could just recommence please once it's ready?
	I can hear that coming through but it's in English, I don't know if it's coming from the interpreter's box?
	I think if the interpreter can do that, the translator?

MR LAX: It is the translator.

CHAIRPERSON: Translator.  Okay let's ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: I think we can proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I will start again.
	Mr Botha, you are an applicant in this application and you are requesting amnesty for the assault of Messrs Gordhan and Lalla.  You have already given evidence before the Amnesty Committee under the Chairpersonship of the Honourable Judges Mall and Wilson, is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And during November last year you also gave evidence especially with regards to the background of Natal violence and Operation Butterfly and Operation Vula, is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.