Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2011-01-21

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Memani, looking at the record and my recollection, it appears that, I disagree slightly with Mr Visser, he never said he did not assault this man, but he never said he assaulted him.  He has never claimed to have assaulted this man.  He lists this man as a member of the PAC who was subject to security branch ... (intervention).

MR MOLEFE: Sorry for ...

CHAIRPERSON: ... investigation.

MR MOLEFE: Sorry for interruption, Mr Chairman, I would like to be excused, recused, I want to go outside just for a minute.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MR MOLEFE: Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: And on the occasion when they went to his house, on one occasion, somebody assaulted him but Motsamai does not know who.  He does not refer to any other specific assault at the building, does he?  You remember you took, you carefully led Motsamai to the list of names.  After he explained what it was, you started with Brian Nagedi and he says there,
"It is true he appeared on the fourth floor and that unit he was assaulted by whom, I do not know who took part in the assault, but when he left the office, came to our office he was swollen.",
and so he goes on.  
"Some people ...".
He says,
"We made him do frog jumps, we made him do push-ups.  These are things we did to harass people."
He admits to taking part in the harassment and torture of some people and others he says, I do not know.  Now, he is not asking for amnesty in respect of those offenses, is he?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chair, my understanding is that there is an application here for amnesty, but that the evidence might be deficient and it is a matter that ought to be dealt with on the basis that ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: He must apply for amnesty in respect of specific incidents.

ADV MEMANI: That is correct, my Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and he has not applied.

ADV MEMANI: No, he has done that my Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: He has not, you led him in evidence and he ... (intervention).

ADV MEMANI: So, that is why my Lord, Mr Molefe is in the list of victims.  He would not be in the list of victims if he was not seen as a person in respect of whom Mr Motsamai was applying for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: No, he does not say it, he gave evidence, Mr Memani, he said, I do not know who assaulted him.  His application is not based on a list of victims, his application is based on the evidence he gave before us, which has to be a full and frank disclosure.  He has not disclosed any assault on this man.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, the application is not limited to what he says.  What you have got is a situation where a person launches his, an application and, perhaps, and I am not conceding that at this stage and perhaps the evidence does not go far enough to entitle me to the relief that he seeks.

CHAIRPERSON: But he does not even say it, Mr, you do not see the point, Mr Memani, he does not say that he had any part in an assault on this man.

MR MOLEFE: Mr Chairman, may I come to your rescue please?  I think let us call the whole thing off, please.  I will just stand and walk away from here.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should keep in touch with the TRC, because as my brother, Judge Ngoepe, explained to you, I think you could give them a great deal of information about the harassment you were subjected to over a number of years.  It appears that deliberate steps were taken to make sure that you did not get employment, that you could not lead a normal life and I think that should be exposed, but that is not the function of this Committee.

MR MOLEFE: You know, I cry, I cry for South Africa really, because South Africa is having representatives like the Visser of today and I am afraid he is only digging a grave for South Africa, nothing else, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Your witness no longer wishes to give evidence, do you agree that he withdraws.

MR STANDER: I do not have any choice, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Memani, I have listened to what happened, but on page 716, at the bottom,
"There was a discussion, where I have, you are applying for amnesty in respect of assaults on them so could you keep, please keep to that, please.".
Then Mr,
"I will do so, that, Sir, this Yekila, he is also the same as those of task force, together with Molefe, together with Serame Molefe, he was assaulted by the askaris.  Before that he was taken by us and then we tortured or assaulted him so that he succumbed to be our informer, so that we would be able to get information about APLA and task force, but we failed, because he did not co-operate.  All these excluding the Pan Africanist Congress and the task force together with Yekila and Serami, we put them on 26 above all of them."

CHAIRPERSON: What page?

ADV DE JAGER: That is on page 716.  Seven hundred and fifteen and up to 716.  So, I am not, it is not quite clear here, but is he not excluding Yekila and Serame and the people of the Pan African Congress from those in paragraph 13 of his application, because you will see now we turn over to paragraph 14, we have dealt, we have finished with paragraph 13.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, it is just that I do not understand what the 26 above refers to.  I think the 26 could possibly refer to the number of people who were taken from what?  From Ladybrand, but I am not sure what he is referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 714,
"Let us go to 26, I do not know how they can be identified, they were members of the task force who were residing in Ficksburg".
This is the passage I referred you to during the adjournment.

MR VISSER: If I may try to be helpful, Mr Chairman?  It could only refer to that item 26 at page 141, because that refers to the task force of the Pan Africanist Congress.

ADV DE JAGER: Page one hundred ...

MR VISSER: One four one ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: One.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, yes.  It can only refer to that.  Oh, yes.  The point being, Mr Chairman, already at that stage we all knew that this was not an incident for which Mr Motsamai was applying for incident, the former Smith incident, I think we called it.  It was not part of his application and that came up in cross-examination again.  You will remember what happened in re-examination, Mr Memani told, said to Mr Motsamai or Mr Motsamai, first of all, said in cross-examination, I will apply at a later date for amnesty in regard to these incidents.
	In fact, it is just coming back to me, Mr Chairman, maybe it is a piece of useless information, but apart from that there was also the Botshebelo incident about which he was criticised that he had not applied for amnesty and he conceded that he had not and then there was in cross- examination that remarkable piece of evidence that he did not assault anybody there which was changed to I was with the people inside not outside, which was changed to I assaulted people inside and not outside and I will apply for amnesty later, that was in the same breath as this particular incident to which we are referring to now.

ADV DE JAGER: I think it is clear that item 26 has been defined on page 714.
"Let us go to item 26.  I do not know how they can be identified, they were members of the task, the task force were, who were, were residing in Ficksburg.  They hid somewhere in Ficksburg.  They were arrested together with Tshekela and Ekosi.  I did not list these names there."
So item 26 refers to the task force who resided at Ficksburg and who were arrested at a certain time.

MR VISSER: Of course, if I may add, Mr Chairman, who were arrested by the askaris at the, I am sorry assaulted by the askaris, at the bottom of the page.
	Mr Chairman, I have just found the passage, it is actually on the next page, 715,
"

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, okay, but you are applying for amnesty in respect of assaults on them, so could you keep to that please."
I am sorry, no, I misread it.  I thought this was the passage where he says, no, I will apply later.  I am sorry, it is not the right passage.