Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-26

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I don't - oh yes, it's the third line, third line from the top, page 105 bundle A, page 83 of the fax, page 31 of the statement.  Have you got that?

MR P DU PLESSIS: It doesn't form part of my bundle, it's left out.  If someone can just help us with a copy.

CHAIRPERSON: It's in that bit that's highlighted with blue, Mr du Plessis, third line from the top.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Are you with me now?

WOUTER J BASSON: Very well, go ahead.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Alright.  Mr van Zyl says
"On an instruction from the Regional Manager, I contacted Peaches and found out from him if he could get hold of Omar's heart tablets, on which he then answered that he will try and get them.  I discussed this matter concerning the tablets with the Regional Manager, in the presence of the Co-ordinator"
and then he mentions certain other people, okay.  Mr van Zyl is very clear that this plan to use these toxic substances was discussed in your presence.

WOUTER J BASSON: No, Mr Chairperson, I think what he meant there is that in the presence of the Co-ordinator, Nick, that there's shouldn't have been a comma after Nick, but if you want to interpret it in a different way, I will deny that I was involved.

MR KAHANOVITZ: At no stage did Mr van Zyl suggest that the Co-ordinator at this stage of the project was not you but Nick, because throughout this statement he describes you as the "Koordineerder".

WOUTER J BASSON: For the larger part of this project I was the Co-ordinator.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I never remember it being put by your representative to Mr van Zyl, that the suggestion that you were present at that meeting was wrong.  But it actually goes further, because Mr van Zyl at page 116, paragraph 55 - no I'm sorry, it's not a reference to you.  I withdraw that question.
	Mr van Zyl's continuous references to "the man from the medical regiment", what is your understanding of it?  Who is "the man from the medical regiment"?

WOUTER J BASSON: That was the information person, Mr Lange.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why would Mr van Zyl think he came from the medical regiment?

WOUTER J BASSON: I do not know, Mr Chairperson, maybe he told him that he comes from such a unit.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why would he - I mean, if he was an information officer why would he tell Mr van Zyl he's from the medical regiment?

WOUTER J BASSON: I do not know.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Because Mr van Zyl also talks about a man from the medical regiment being present when they discussed the Early Learning Centre bomb blast.

WOUTER J BASSON: I do not know if that is so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You don't know if that is so.

WOUTER J BASSON: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there anybody, as far as you know, from the medical regiment that had any dealings with the CCB at that time?

WOUTER J BASSON: Mr Chairperson, the person in question was part of such a unit, he then left or he resigned and then was applied in the CCB at a later stage.

CHAIRPERSON: So do you know who that person was?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, Lange.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that Lange?  So he used to be involved with the a medical regiment?

WOUTER J BASSON: That is correct, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: To the extent that one read Mr van Zyl's statement to say that because they were discussing how to cause somebody's heart attack through the use of pills, I gained the impression that that's why there was someone from the medical regiment present.  If I gained that impression, you're telling me I got the wrong impression?

WOUTER J BASSON: Mr Chairperson, apart from his background he was sectioned with Nick to assist with Region 6 in my absence, and it was not because of his background that he was now involved in Region 6, that he may have knowledge of a certain substance.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now in the charge sheet in the case involving your namesake, Dr Wouter Basson, there's a reference to a Dr R J Botha, the Medical Co-ordinator of the CCB, do you know about him?

WOUTER J BASSON: Mr Chairperson, I think I do know who he is but I cannot say with certainty.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did you ever have any dealings with a Medical Co-ordinator?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, never.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why did the CCB have a Medical Co-ordinator?

WOUTER J BASSON: I do not know, I think probably to get access to your normal medical substances.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now Gen Webb - or let me preface this question by saying the following.  We've heard about Omar, we've heard about Evans, we've also heard about projects which concern the possible assassination of, amongst others, Hamutenya, Tjongarero, Bessinger and so on and so forth, now as regards this whole period, Gen Webb not only says he never approved any assassinations internally, his version is also that he never approved any assassinations, fullstop.  You with me?  Both inside and outside the country.  Now I don't want to ask you details about, for purposes of this question, about overseas projects, I want to know is it true that Gen Webb never approved a single assassination throughout the whole time that he was Chairman of the CCB?

WOUTER J BASSON: Mr Chairperson, I'm not qualified to answer that question, but what I can say is that in my presence Gen Webb never said something like that.  And by saying that I'm not saying that he didn't say it in other circumstances to others.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Maybe you misunderstand, I'm not asking you whether you were there, you would have heard in your capacity as someone working on Region 2, Region 7, Region 6, it being said to you "This has been approved by the Chairman, go ahead", correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And we know that that was in fact said to you in relation to Omar and Evans, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I take it that it was also said to you in relation to certain other projects.

WOUTER J BASSON: There weren't any other projects that I'm aware of in Region 6.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I'm not talking about Region 6.

WOUTER J BASSON: Are you talking generally?

MR KAHANOVITZ: I'm talking in general.

WOUTER J BASSON: Once again Chairperson, I cannot say yes or I cannot say no.  I cannot say yes if I do not know about it.  I cannot answer it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now when you had an in-house, did you discuss alternatives?  For instance, 'burn the kombi, puncture the tyres, kill the driver'?  I'm not asking you about that project, I'm just giving that as examples.  Were alternatives discussed?  Just a yes or no.

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Is the following statement true?  At an in-house you wouldn't have known that elimination was an approved option, because it could not have been approved by the Chairman by that stage.

WOUTER J BASSON: Can you just repeat your question please.

MR KAHANOVITZ: At an in-house you would not have known that elimination was an approved option, because that project would not yet have been submitted to the Chairman.

WOUTER J BASSON: That is correct, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Would - just another general question, would Joe Verster's approval be obtained before a "voorstudie" was prepared?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, I do not think so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Next question.  Did Joe Verster approve the microbus project, the project to burn the kombi in Cape Town?

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, Mr Chairperson, he had to.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You can't remember but he must have, or you can remember if he did?

WOUTER J BASSON: What I'm trying to say to you is that no act was committed in Region 6 of which Mr Verster did not know of.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Either you can remember or you can't, if you can't just say "I can't remember".

WOUTER J BASSON: I'd like to say yes, he knew about it.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Kahanovitz is getting at, we understand what you're saying that all projects had to be approved by him, but Mr Kahanovitz is asking you, can you specifically remember, sitting here now today, that Mr Verster approved the burning of the kombi?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, I cannot recall it specifically.