Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-26

MR BERGER: Now, in your application at page 212, you were asked for the names of your victims and you gave the name there
"Nonjoli"
Do you see that?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I see that but I don't know anything about that.  I would not attack a stranger and later on come up with a name.

MR BERGER: Well, where does that name come from if not from you?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I have no idea.  I do not know Boipatong. I was going to Boipatong for the first time, who can I know the people when I don't know the place?

MR BERGER: Well you confirmed this document this morning, you made certain changes to the document, you corrected certain mistakes but you didn't correct this one, so you confirmed it.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: It might as well be that my lawyer did not read this one to me.

MR BERGER: Well as I read the applications, you are the only applicant to put a name here, you are the only person to mention a name of a victim.  It has to come from you, Mr Dlamini, it couldn't come from anybody else.  You gave this name when you made your application.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I have already pointed out that I know nothing about this name.  My attorney did not even refer to this name in the morning.  I would have indicated this to him.

MR BERGER: So you can't explain where this name comes from?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I am not in the position to.

MR BERGER: In the criminal trial you gave evidence, and at page 3529 the following question was put to you:  "Mr Moloi has given evidence that you were in Boipatong and that you had a self-made spear with you and that you were in a certain house in Shlube Street, number 765, where you stabbed a person with a spear."
What do you say about that?  And your answer was:
"No, he is making a mistake."
Do you remember that?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I remember saying this in Court.

MR BERGER: But Moloi was not making a mistake, was he?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: He was making a mistake.  I cannot make a spear, I did not make that spear, I buy a spear, I bought that one.  I do not even know the house that he is talking about.  I don't know what house it is.

MR BERGER: Well he was correct, you were in Boipatong, you did have a spear.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct, yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: And you did enter a house in Shlube Street.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I have already pointed out that I went into two houses, one of which had a shack and the other one is the one house in which I found a child.

MR BERGER: You did enter a house in Shlube Street, correct?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I would not admit because I don't know.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Interpreter he said he won't agree where the house is because he doesn't know.

INTERPRETER: Thank you.

MR BERGER: I put it to you that entered a house in the vicinity of Shlube Street, are you denying that?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I do not deny that, I am saying I don't know, I don't know which house you are talking about.

MR BERGER: Well let me read to  you what you say in your affidavit at the bottom of page 222
"I stabbed another person, a man, with a spear in the vicinity of Shlube Street."
You say that.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I would not bind myself to Shlube Street, I have already indicated that I do not know the place.  I cannot say I stabbed a person at such a place, knowing full well that I am not familiar with the place.  Yes, I agree, I stabbed a person at a particular place but I am not quite conversant with the area.

MR BERGER: So where does this name Shlube Street come from, if not from you, in your own statement?  Is that another mistake that you forgot to point out this morning?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, I don't know where it comes from.  I don't know really.

MR BERGER: In fact I read this sentence to you a little while ago, you didn't mention that it was wrong at that stage.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Maybe you did not get me well.  When I say I don't know a place, really I don't know how to go about explaining it to you.

MR BERGER: You've got no explanation for how this comes to be in your statement, have you?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, the point has been made.  The record speaks for itself.  He stabbed a man in one of the houses and he stabbed four or five others in a shack.

MR BERGER: That's not my point, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Mr Berger, the point is made with regard to his statement and the mistakes.  Really, we don't have to keep - it's emphasised sufficiently.

MR BERGER: If I can just round it off with this point, and that is
	At 765 Shlube Street, Mrs Martha Nonjoli, the name you mentioned, was indeed shot and killed and two minor children, Ndo, Ntombifekele were hacked and killed.  And aren't you responsible for that, Mr Dlamini?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, I still maintain what I was saying.  I know nothing about the names that appear here.  I will continue maintaining that I know nothing about these names.

MR BERGER: What happened at the hostel on the 18th of June 1992?  You woke up by - you were woken by Damarra Chonco, is that right?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: He told you to go around and get people to burn the goods which they had stolen from Boipatong.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Were you alone when you went from room to room?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I was alone indeed on my side, I did not see anyone else.

MR BERGER: You were not with Mr Mkhize, you were not with Mr Matan(?)?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No.

MR BERGER: And did people listen to you, did they obey your instruction?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I would say they did because I was walking around calling upon people to bring along their stolen property or the stolen loot from Boipatong so that this could be put in the fire.

MR BERGER: What was your position in the hostel?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Nothing.

MR BERGER: What was your position in the IFP?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Nothing, I was just a member, I had no position.

MR BERGER: What was Damarra Chonco's position in the hostel or the IFP?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I knew him to be Mkhize's assistant.

MR BERGER: After you had organised the burning of the goods, what happened?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Nothing happened, I then went back to my room.

MR BERGER: So according to you there was no meeting in the hostel on the 18th?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: As far as I know I think there was a meeting yes, later on in the day, a meeting which was attended by Mr Khosa and Ndlovu.

MR BERGER: So Mr Khosa and Mr Ndlovu did come to the hostel on the 18th?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, they did.

MR BERGER: And Mr Khosa did not tell the residents to burn the goods because they'd already been burnt by that stage.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: Sorry, while you're looking, Mr Berger ...
	Did you - I just didn't hear clearly, there was a bit of interference at the back here, did you go to that meeting on the 18th or not?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, I did not attend the meeting.

MR LAX: Thanks.

MR BERGER: Oh!.  Why did you not attend that meeting?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I was busy cooking porridge in my room.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Mr Dlamini, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: And re-examination?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, there's still some people ...

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions, Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, maybe I have one question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR MALINDI: Mr Dlamini, am I right that you broke many windows while going through Boipatong?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, I did not break windows.

MR MALINDI: Did you see any of the attackers breaking windows?