Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, no.  I am very clear about that.  I didn't at that stage have the spade in my hand.

MR PAPIER: Captain Benzien, you hit the deceased against the head intending to render him unconscious, is that correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Hopefully to render him unconscious, but in any event to put him out of action and I hit him with his firearm.

MR PAPIER: You are big, you are sturdily built, would you agree with me?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As well as old an unfit.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sure he is referring to the period 10 years earlier than now?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Ten years ago, with respect Your Honour, I was 40 years old, 39 or 40 years old, ten years ago.

MR PAPIER: Yes, but your build hasn't changed much, has it?  Perhaps you have become older, but at that stage you were probably more fit than you are today?

ADV DE JAGER: I see he is actually glancing at his waistline, Mr Papier.

MR PAPIER: However, were you bigger than the deceased?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: In length no, in build yes.

MR PAPIER: And Abels?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Abels could have been the same height, perhaps also a little bit more sturdily built.  The deceased was in his early 20's I would estimate and if my information is correct, he had just come from military training camp, so I don't think he was as plump as we were.

MR PAPIER: So he was laying on the ground, and if I understand your statement, you then jumped on him and you sat on him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.

MR PAPIER: And your colleague ...

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I don't know whether I actually said I sat on him?

MR PAPIER: Perhaps you can tell the Committee what happened there, irrespective of what appears in your statement.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: To write a statement of what happened during a fight and to actually do so in detail, is very difficult.  You have to rely on your memory.
	With respect I don't know how many people have been involved in a struggle or a fight, especially of this nature, it is a continuing act of rolling around and there is a lot of motion, and it is very difficult to describe the events in the exact order in which they happened.
	I know that we attempted to handcuff the deceased.  And a blow which I delivered to the deceased's head, the intention of that was to render him unconscious, but how hard do  you hit a person, not to kill him if you are using a firearm?
	To answer your question, we were on the ground.  I had hoped that he was unconscious and we tried to handcuff him.

MR PAPIER: Yes, and you were sitting on him at that stage?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Next to him, I don't think it was on top of him.

MR PAPIER: And your colleague, Abels, was trying to handcuff him, is that correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I've just glanced briefly at point 14, this is from a statement which I made about seven days after the incident, point 14 of my statement - "Kriel relaxed for a moment whilst he was laying on his back and I took up a position, a kneeling position on his right and Sergeant Abels to his left, at his head, and we pinned him down to the ground."
	I don't mention that I actually sat on him.

MR PAPIER: Can you still remember this incident, or can't you remember it?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I rely to a large extent to the statement which I made then as well as my memory.  And I am doing that to the best of my ability in order to assist the Committee.

MR PAPIER: Was it possible for you to actually throw the firearm away or throw it to one side?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, I am sure I could have done that.

MR PAPIER: Why didn't you do it?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: At this stage I was grappling with a terrorist.  The only weapon which was available in this split second action, was the weapon which I had to hand.  I don't think that anybody in similar circumstances should consider actually throwing the weapon away, what purpose would that serve?

MR PAPIER: Yes, well, perhaps Mr Kriel would still have been alive today.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I don't want the Committee to gain the impression that I am cynical.  Learned Advocate said that perhaps Mr Kriel would still have been alive, had I thrown the weapon away.
	As I said earlier when I apologised to the family, if the tables had been turned on that day, I could have been dead today and not Mr Kriel.

MR PAPIER: Yes, you will agree with me that there was no weapon except for the other weapon which you had in your possession, which was in issue if the original weapon, Mr Kriel's weapon, hadn't been used in the way in which you used it?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I don't think I follow the question.

MR PAPIER: I would try and clarify that.  I am putting it to you that Mr Kriel had no other weapons in his possession.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: At that stage I couldn't foresee it.

MR PAPIER: And at this stage, is that the case or not?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: At this stage I know that he didn't have a firearm anywhere on the premises, but an F1 handgrenade under his pillow in the bedroom.

MR PAPIER: How far away was he from his bedroom?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That handgrenade could as well have been in his pocket.

MR PAPIER: But it wasn't.  Let us continue.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, before you do that.  To a question by Mr Papier, you said that what purpose would it have served to throw away the deceased's weapon, but what purpose did it serve to keep it in your hand in stead of throwing it away?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Your Honour, at that stage I was the policeman on the scene, making the arrest.  I have just disarmed a person with a firearm.  With hindsight and knowing how this tragic experience developed, I could say yes, yes it would have been the best thing to throw the firearm away, but I don't think anybody and I say it with all respect, who is in a situation like that and comes into the possession of the threat's weapon, throws the weapon away to equal the playing fields.
	At that stage it was not a case of a boxing or wrestling match.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I understand you, but I thought that you needed the use of your hand badly to overpower, to physically grab this person.  It is not a question of actually throwing his weapon away, you put it out of his reach, by just putting it a distance away because you wanted to use both hands to grab this person.  Didn't you need to use both hands?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Your Honour, I was fighting him with the firearm still in my hand, in my right hand.  My left hand ...

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: That is what I can't understand.  How can you fight somebody with a firearm in your hand?  You fight better, to grab him better, if the firearm is not in your hand.
	If you put it a distance away, you use both arms to grab the man.  You handicap yourself by clinging onto this firearm.  This is what I don't understand.  Unless, of course you wanted to use the firearm?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Your Honour, as I explained, and with all respect, this whole turmoil was not taking minutes, it was seconds.  Why I kept the firearm at that stage, in all probability because then I had the edge on him.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you not keep the firearm with the view that you should shoot him?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I don't think at that stage at all, Your Honour.  But what was to say, I know we are debating this now and I am - the firearm out of my control could surely just as easily by some or other method, especially if he had somebody else in the house, which it would have not been the first time that two terrorists share the same abode.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.  I understand.

MR PAPIER: Thank you Sir.  And you Captain Benzien, you were also still armed with your personal pistol?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR PAPIER: Was Abels armed?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.

MR PAPIER: Abels was standing next to you, that is after you had knocked Ashley Kriel to the ground, unconscious and Abels was busy putting the handcuffs?