Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: I then go on, on page 105 that you have with you, I ask her
"Do you know a Mr Thami Hlatswayo?"
and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela answers -
"Goodness me, I don't know all these people, Mr Chairman. Who are they?"
 I then go on and say -
"Well, Mr Thami Hlatswayo is supposed to have been an MK cadre..."
and she later on says -
"Sorry, no I was saying that ...."
it's not clear, it's not typed out properly -
".....I would have known him".
But what she essentially says is she did not know you. Did she know you?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: She know me.

MR VALLY: At the time that Susan Maripa was shot dead, are you aware of any of her family members who witnessed the shooting?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us who?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: It was the old man. He is the owner of the house, if I am not mistaken.

MR VALLY: We have a statement from her daughter, who was 12 years old at the time, who ran into the house when the shots broke out and came back to find her mother lying in a pool of blood, are you aware of that?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I doubt if there - because there were only three person outside sir, three people.

MR VALLY: Well, we have a statement from the daughter saying that but I don't need to put that to you right now.  Did you shoot Miss Susan Maripa at all?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: No.

MR VALLY: I have just now given you an extract from the inquest record relating to Susan Maripa.  If you look under paragraph C where it says,
"Cause or likely cause of death - multiple gunshot wounds, AK-47 rifle and Makarov pistol used".
It seems to indicate that both weapons were used.  Would you like to comment on that?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: Please tell us.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Only one, it was a rifle, not a pistol, sir, who killed that lady, a rifle, an AK-47.

MR VALLY: If you look further down, just to the right of the stamp, it's very small print, paragraph D
"Whether the death was brought about by any act or omission involving or amounting to an offence on the part of any person".
And in handwriting it states - 
"Yes, Churchill Thami Hlatswayo and unknown black male".
Do you note that?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I see it, yes.

MR VALLY: In other words, the inquest court felt that you were one of the persons responsible for the death of Susan Maripa. Have you applied for amnesty in this regard?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: No, I saw there was no need, because as I've already said, sir, the thing which - I was forced to go there and I never used anything there, and I never even took out the pistol which was in my pocket, sir.

MR VALLY: Thank you, Mr Hlatswayo, I have no more questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there anyone to ask questions? Yes. Will you please identify yourself?

MR SEMENYA: The name Chairperson, it's Ishmail Semenya.  I, together with Mr Mavundla, represent Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SEMENYA: We have had an opportunity to request statements of various witnesses, and we did not obtain those statements, but we were given some translation of your story in terms which I would regard as very glib, it was not coherent.  I've been trying to listen to your story today, I still can't find coherence, so you will bear with me when I put what might appear to be misplaced questions. Okay?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Okay.

MR SEMENYA: So we know that you say when Susan Maripa was there you were present?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Where sir?

MR SEMENYA: When Susan Maripa was killed you were present, is that factually correct or not?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, that's correct, sir.

MR SEMENYA: And you knew she was going to be killed that particular day, did you not?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Not at all.

MR SEMENYA: You just had your firearm in your pocket?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: No, I was given a firearm to go and point out Mrs Maripa and ask her what did she knew about the killings.

MR SEMENYA: Oh, you are going to ask her what she knew by being given a firearm?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: That's it, sir.

MR SEMENYA: And you hadn't applied for amnesty as an accessory after the fact, because you did not report this, did you?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Report it to whom, sir?

MR SEMENYA: Did you report this to the police?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: When?

MR SEMENYA: When it happened.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: It was, I think it was the 22nd of November, sir.

MR SEMENYA: Ja, my question is, did you report it to the police on the 22nd of November as you say when it happened?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: There was no way for me to go and report the incident, sir.

MR SEMENYA: What does that mean?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: First, I was running away from the guy who was driving a Citi Golf sir, the one who picked me up at home with Peter.

MR SEMENYA: Now before you left the country you must have gone past a number of police stations?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Not at all, not at all.  From Thlatle to Moletsuane there is no police station.  Police station is only at Jabulani. It's very far from Thlatle.

MR SEMENYA: No, maybe you don't hear what I am saying to you.  I'm saying before you left the country there were a number of police stations you could have gone to. Is that factually correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I think it was impossible for me to go to a police station, sir.

MR SEMENYA: When is it the first time you report your participation in the death of Susan Maripa, or your presence in the death of Susan Maripa?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I think the first time I did it it was in Lusaka, in Lusaka.

MR SEMENYA: When the first time do you do that in South Africa?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: It was my first week on my return home.

MR SEMENYA: If I listen to you telling us you were not present when the car accident occurred killing Vincent, is that right?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: That's right, sir.

MR SEMENYA: You also don't know why Vincent Sefako was killed, do you?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I don't know who but I know why.

MR SEMENYA: And why was he killed?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: As I have already mentioned that he told me that there was a feud between him and Mrs Mandela, and he stated clearly, that guy, you must know the way out of the country because very soon there is something which is going to happen to me or to you as my close companion.

MR SEMENYA: So we know you stating this version and we also know that Vincent is not alive to confirm it, right?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Even if he was alive I was going to be proud to say what I am saying today.

MR SEMENYA: Ja, let alone your pride, I am asking you, we know that he is unable to confirm this statement, is that right?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: That's right.

MR SEMENYA: And we also know that according to you the person who killed Susan Maripa is not alive anymore, right?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: It's my first thing to me that you've

MR SEMENYA: I beg your pardon?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: It's new to me.

MR SEMENYA: Who killed Susan Maripa?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Peter.

MR SEMENYA: Is he alive?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I only met him, I think it was in Tanzania.

MR SEMENYA: Is Peter around, can we go talk to him?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I don't know, sir.

MR SEMENYA: You have made this information available to the TRC in September, that there are probabilities Peter is alive.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Ja, that's why I took one of the policemen to show Peter's house, because I was know that he must be around.

MR SEMENYA: Then you tell us there were instances when you had occasion to be at Mrs Mandela's house?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: That's correct.

MR SEMENYA: And the first time you went there, you went on your own accord, is that right?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: No I was told to be there. I will be picked up later that day at eight o'clock.  I was told not to move, I must be there, I must be.

MR SEMENYA: Told by whom that you must be there?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Personally Mrs Mandela.

MR SEMENYA: No, I am talking about your first contact now.  How are you told you must be there first thing in the morning?