Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR JORDI: 16 years.  And that period was spent in activities related to Stratcom even if it wasn't directly Stratcom ...(intervention)

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: Not entirely, we had various functions on this security branch.  I was a field worker, and yes very much of it would have been the handling of agents and the handling of information and gathering of information.

MR JORDI: But you are clearly knowledgeable in the field as far as distribution of this kind of information is concerned?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: Yes.

MR JORDI: It is true to say that given the evidence of Mr McPherson that the best information that could be distributed by Stratcom or, as far as Stratcom related activities could be concerned is factually accurate information, is that right?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: That would be the ideal formula, yes.

MR JORDI: And I suppose in cases where the information was not entirely accurate it had to have some basis in truth, is that right?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: The ideal, if my memory serves me correct on Stratcom course we were told that the ideal ratio would have been 70:30.

MR JORDI: Yes and you ...(intervention)

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: 70% truth and 30% fabrication.

MR JORDI: That's right and you quoted to that effect in the Weekly Mail of 21 November 1997.

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: That's correct.

MR JORDI: Now I note that from your affidavit you say that you found it very hard to distribute this kind of information against President Nelson Mandela and to quote you, "because of him impeccable integrity", is that right?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: Yes.  What I mean by that was we had nothing on him personally apart - nothing personally, no contentious statements, no statements like his wife had made for example with the liberation of the country ...(intervention)

MR JORDI: Yes his wife was a different category altogether, is that right.

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: Different, she was easy to target because she was controversial ...(intervention)

MR JORDI: She was easy to target, that's right.

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: That's correct.

MR JORDI: Because there was a lot of factually accurate information in the hands of the security police available about her, is that right?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: Well I wouldn't say in the hands of the security police, I think the media and generally everybody was ...(intervention)

MR JORDI: Everybody knew, is that right?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: That's it, that's correct.

MR JORDI: And even if it was not entirely accurate you could still have the 70% reliable information which you could mix with the 30% unreliable information, is that right?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: I never consciously actually, and I don't know of anybody that actually stuck to that point but that was the ideal formula, some of the things were total fabrication, some of them were 100%, some were half true.

MR JORDI: So in the case of Winnie Mandela you say there was a lot of information available, I suppose the ratio was much higher than 70:30, say 90:10 or a 100%?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: I couldn't speculate on figures but certainly a lot of it was fabrication.

MR JORDI: A lot of it was fabrication?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: Total fabrication.

MR JORDI: Well you say here 30:70, a lot of reliable information, you have told me reliable information was available, now you say a lot of it was fabrication.

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: That is correct.  The information, for example, about Mrs Madikizela-Mandela being a nymphomaniac was total fabrication.  The dagga smoking was total fabrication.

DR BORAINE: Mr Jordi can I just say that you are taking a very long time to get to this point, could you get to the point please.

MR JORDI: You say that as far as Mrs Mandela was concerned that you could spread information about her that she was running rampant in the townships with her Football Club who were inter alia intimidating the local population.  As far as I know I think you also say something here about her misusing drugs and there were also aspects of information related to marital problems.  Was that based on factually accurate information, for example the drug running?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: The drug running was a total fabrication on my part.

MR JORDI: On your part.  Well I put it to you ...(intervention)

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: I added, if I may just add on just to what I've said there a total fabrication, was that the information that I received, factual information, was that the Mandela United Football Club were using dagga or marijuana and it was a logical extension to say that Zinzi and Mrs Mandela were ...(intervention)

MR JORDI: Okay.  Then I have the question for you, were Stratcom-type activities being carried out in 1995?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: 1995?

MR JORDI: Ja.

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: No, not to my knowledge.

MR JORDI: You are absolutely sure they weren't being carried out in 1995?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: Chairperson I left the police, was boarded in 1993 and I've had little contact after that with anybody of my former colleagues, I moved to another area, I was pretty much isolated.  I cannot comment on that at all.

MR JORDI: Alright.  I have here an investigation diary, it says "Spesiale ondersoek", I can't give you the CR number but it looks like it's from 24 April 1995 and there's a reference here, it's on page 23 I think of the investigation diary, I am just going to read it to you.

DR BORAINE: I am sorry to interrupt you but the witness has just said that he was not there, he left in 1993, I don't see any point in pursuing this.

MR JORDI: It's got to do with the factual basis for the allegations regarding the misuse of drugs because there's a reference in this occurrence book to drug running related to Winnie Mandela.

DR BORAINE: Yes, but the witness knows nothing about that.

MR JORDI: Yes but he has knowledge of Stratcom activities, well the 1980's related to allegations that Winnie Mandela was misusing drugs, or the drug-running was - or the misuse of drugs was taking place in her household in the 1980's.

DR BORAINE: Could you come to the end of your questions please.

MR JORDI: You say that during the 1980's Winnie Mandela was monitored on a 24 hour basis, a kind of unprecedented monitoring of her activities, do you know who were the security policemen responsible for the monitoring of her activities, what are their names?

PAUL FRANCIS ERASMUS: Colonel de Jager that I mentioned earlier would have been one of the staff members.  I mean Soweto was a big security branch staff, I cannot say accurately who - Sergeant Badenhorst was another, but who the other people were I can only speculate, so I don't know how their branch operated and who was assigned to whichever tasks.

MR JORDI: Thank you.  I've just got one isolated issue to deal with you.  You say in your affidavit at paragraph 9
"I was however only given information on an irregular basis although I did recall that I requested but never received detail of, for example, the death of Stompie Seipei".
Now it must have been an obvious issue in respect of which to get information.  So you didn't get any detailed information and we've established that you had a thorough knowledge of misinformation.  Then there's the press release from, which is dated the 9th of September 1997 and it deals with Jerry Richardson's involvement in the killing of Stompie and there's this version here that Jerry Richardson, after he had found out that Richardson was working for the security - well Stompie Seipei was killed by Jerry Richardson after Richardson found out that Stompie was working for the security branch, it seems to me that this link of between the death of Stompie and the supposed information that was received by Jerry Richardson has no basis in fact.  We haven't heard anything about it in the evidence so far and I put it to you that this is an example of disinformation.  What do you have to say about that?