Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-05

MR P DU PLESSIS: Sorry Mr Chairman, let me just - see the same goes for the statement of Fatima Omar, referring again to bundle D, page 224.
"... On the 31st of August 1989, after eight o'clock, I arrived at the Early Learning Centre, Athlone, to attend a meeting of the Cape Youth Congress.  The meeting started at about 20H30."
	Which is more in accordance with what you say.  The fact of the matter is also this lady does not mention anything about CRIC or the fact that you first had to give the necessary, get the necessary permission to use this hall?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The ELC is adjacent to CRIC, sir, they were standing outside.  What more do you need?

MR P DU PLESSIS: The same Nazeema Mohammed, page 226 once again
"... at the 31st of August 1989, at about eight o'clock, I had a meeting with the members of Cape Youth Congress at the Early Learning Centre, Athlone ..."
	You see, let me get straight to the point.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: We have in the same bundle, that is bundle D, pages 228 up to page 237, we have three statements by more or less objective people of the soccer club, who were unfortunate enough to be in the building, however not in the hall, when the bomb exploded.
	Let me deal with them quickly.  First of all, let me refer to page 231, the statement of Terrence Coetzee.  This is the gentleman of whom you said that you would recognise his face if you see him, correct?  You had no political or personal problems with him before, correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: If he was in the area, and I see his face, I might have known him.  But I would know the face.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.  You see this statement, I am referring to the typed version now, page 233, 234, from this it appears that this statement was made in April 1990, which is about six months before you people made your statement?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Okay.

MR P DU PLESSIS: I am referring to paragraph 2
"... On Thursday, 31 August 1989, at quarter past eight, I arrived at the Early Learning Centre, in Springbok Street, Kewtown, to attend a certain meeting.  We held the meeting in the foyer of the centre, because the hall was locked."
	The hall was locked?  Do you see that?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Sir, the doors were closed, not locked.  I cannot see that, I don't have it in front of me, but the only way you could lock those doors, was by chains.  There wasn't a lock that you could turn, I told you that earlier.  That is an assumption...

MR P DU PLESSIS: The fact of the matter is, this gentleman wanted to attend a meeting, and from the other statements it is clear that it is alleged that this meeting had to take place in the very hall where the bomb exploded, correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes.

MR P DU PLESSIS: I think we find it in your own statement that the soccer people had to use the hall, therefore you had to use the boardroom, correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

MR P DU PLESSIS: So one would assume that this good gentleman who wanted to attend a meeting in the hall, would at least have a look whether the hall is open or not?  He would at least test the doors?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is your assumption sir.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The doors were not locked, the doors were closed.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, I am often accused of not being a student of Afrikaans, but I seem to remember people saying, going out of this doors "sluit die deur", it doesn't mean lock.  "Sluit" does not mean lock, Mr Chairman?  It can be, but it certainly isn't, it means closed or locked and I know whenever this arises, my Afrikaans speaking friends often tell me I don't understand Afrikaans.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I don't think that Mr Bizos would be able to save the moment.  The point is, what this gentleman is saying that they had to use the foyer, you would agree with me firstly that that wouldn't be a normal place to have a meeting, do you agree with me?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Sir ...

MR P DU PLESSIS: Just answer the question, do you agree with me, yes or no?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, I don't agree, they were a few members at a time, they were waiting on their members, sir.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Let's leave that point and move on, the fact of the matter is that this person says he gives a reason why they had to use the foyer.  The reason which is advanced is because the hall was locked?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I repeat sir, the hall wasn't locked.

MR P DU PLESSIS: That is your version?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The only way you could lock, no, because I knew, I was familiar with the centre, I would go there.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr du Plessis.  Mr Bizos, my understanding, reading it in the context of the sentence, is that it must obviously mean that it was locked, because you don't not hold a meeting merely because the door was closed, which you could easily open and go in?
	In the context of that to find that it was not locked, would be a bit absurd, I think, with respect, and I am certainly not a student of Afrikaans.

GEORGE BIZOS: Could you please have a look at paragraph 3, sir?  Page 14, of another statement
"... but I do not know if it was locked."
	That is on page 14 of ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, I am just looking at this ...

GEORGE BIZOS: A different statement.

CHAIRPERSON: I am just looking at this particular one, if one reads this sentence
"... we held the meeting in the foyer of the centre, because the hall was locked."
	I think there any interpretation would be that it was locked.

GEORGE BIZOS: (Indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: I am not concerned with the other, but just that particular one.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, it may be, (indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: And I am not saying whether this person is correct or not, but just on that ...

GEORGE BIZOS: I will concede in that context, but the other statement of the other soccer players ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I haven't got ...

GEORGE BIZOS: I suppose my learned friend will ask some questions.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman, indeed I have to, because these statements do not make any sense to me.
	Now, referring to the people of the Cape Youth Congress, not the soccer players, sir, I will proceed.  At least this one gentleman says that the hall was locked, and the other two say that the doors were closed, but they do not know whether it was in fact locked.  The position is further that referring to another statement of Mr Godfrey Blignaut, also a person you say which you cannot say you had any dealings with before, no bias of any nature between the two of you as far as you know, do you agree?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I agree.  I told you earlier.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Right, now Mr Godfrey Blignaut made his statement also long before you did yours, on the 6th of December 1989, referring to page 235 to 237 of bundle B.
	He says the following ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis, have you got a reference, a page number?