Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-12

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, something happened.  As we proceeded along Msheshwe Street, in one point I think it is Tserela Combined School, the place was barricaded with razor wire and some few logs.  We removed the barrication out of the way and we proceeded.
	We removed the wire which was used to barricade the street.  We proceeded and before we reached Leqwa Street, we met a group of young people, I think they were SDU members.  Then the shooting took place from both sides.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see who fired shots in your group?

MR TSHABANGU: If I remember well, it is Damara who shot.

MR STRYDOM: What kind of weapon did he have?

MR TSHABANGU: An AK47.

MR STRYDOM: After the shots were fired, what happened to the people you referred to as the Self Defence Unit?

MR TSHABANGU: They retreated, started running away, jumping the fences, entering into some of the houses, were insulting them and our group went up along Leqwa Street where they ran, the other group continued along Msheshwe Street.

MR STRYDOM: What did you do in Boipatong?

MR LAX: Sorry, just before you go on.  You said something about inciting people, they were jumping over fences, inciting people.  What did you mean by that?

CHAIRPERSON: Insulting?

MR TSHABANGU: I said we were insulting them.  I am one of those who were insulting them.

MR STRYDOM: Did you go into any houses in Boipatong?

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute.  When you left the hostel, you were a big group, right?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ... which is K< I think it is, is that where you first split into two groups?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  And your group entered through Msheshwe Road?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what happened to the other group?

MR TSHABANGU: We divided into two groups, but both groups were using the same street to enter.

CHAIRPERSON: So both groups were in Msheshwe?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You then mentioned that when the people that you believed to be SDU members, ran into Leqwa Street?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Which group was this now?

MR TSHABANGU: It was the group which turned to the left at Leqwa Street, which was under the command of Mr Qonqo.  The other group proceeded along Leqwa Street, I don't know who was in charge of the group.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it at that stage that the group split and went into different directions?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.

MR LAX: I am sorry to come in Mr Strydom.  I have heard two different things from you now.  Earlier you said the other group proceeded along Msheshwe Street, now you are saying they proceeded along Leqwa Street, can we just clarify this, I am a bit confused.

MR TSHABANGU: We left the tree, divided into two groups.  Two groups proceeded towards the same direction, along we joined Msheshwe Street as two groups proceeding to the same direction.
	Where Leqwa crosses on our left, crosses Msheshwe Street, after the shooting that occurred against us and the SDU's, the group which was under the command of Qonqo went to Leqwa Street and the other group continued or proceeded along Msheshwe Street, that is what I am trying to explain.

MR LAX: That is what I thought you said in the beginning, that is why I wanted to correct it because the way it was translated now was that both groups went up and split up Leqwa Street.  So I just wanted to clarify that, thank you.

MR STRYDOM: As your group moved along in the streets of Boipatong, were they always in a tight unit or did they split up in smaller groups as they went along?

MR TSHABANGU: We were divided, we were divided into small groups.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give the names of people that walked close to you that you can remember?

MR TSHABANGU: I won't remember all of them, I will try to mention those who I can still remember.  Damara was with us, Themba, Stals who is also an applicant in this hearing,  Dondo is also an applicant ...

MR LAX: You are going a bit too fast.  Just slow down a little bit.  I got as far as Stals, you said Stals was an applicant, what is his surname?

MR TSHABANGU: His name is Timothy Stals Mazibuko.  Dondo Jack Mbele who is an applicant.  Tebogo Ruben is also an applicant, and others whom I can't remember now.

MR LAX: You mentioned a Themba, who is Themba?

MR TSHABANGU: That is Themba Maboti.

MR LAX: And you mentioned a Dondo?

MR TSHABANGU: He is Dondo Jack Mbele.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR STRYDOM: Did you go into any houses in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I entered into one of the houses.  I don't remember which house.
	I think it is those houses along Mzimvubu going up, I destroyed things in the houses.

MR STRYDOM: I want you to look at Exhibit J, that is the plan of Boipatong.  First just have a look at it, do you understand the manner in which it is set out?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes, I do understand.

MR STRYDOM: The group that you were in, can you explain the route you followed through Boipatong, up to the stage you left Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: We entered through Msheshwe Street, we turned on Leqwa and continued, we went to Hlewi and Amadon.  That is the route we followed from the time we entered and the time we went out.

MR STRYDOM: Did you personally attack any person in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: Yes.  Yes, there was one whom I came across who was running, I can't remember the name of the street where I cam across this.  I hit him very hard with a stick.  That is the person I attacked.
	Further I also entered into a house and destroyed things.  I destroyed things like TV and other things.  I can't remember all, I can't remember whether I destroyed a glass on top of something or not.
	All that I know is that I destroyed a lot of things in that house, I also destroyed things inside and outside.  I could have destroyed anything, a window, a car, anything which I could destroy.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you destroy property in those houses or that house, and outside the houses?

MR TSHABANGU: It was my contribution in the fight in which we were in.   These are the things which I learnt from the Boipatong community,  that things are to be destroyed.

MR STRYDOM: Did you personally witness any killing of any person?

MR TSHABANGU: I don't know how I should state this, with reference to the killing of people.
	What I am going to say is the person that shot, usually you will fall or try to limp, running away.  I won't be able to say whether he is dead or not, because these things were happening as we were running and people were shot.  I saw other people shooting some of the people.  These are things that happened, however, I won't be able to say in this particular place, I saw someone dying.
	However, I did see weapons which were dangerous used on other people, but I can't confirm that those people died or not.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from Damara who had a weapon, did you see, can you mention names of other people you saw with weapons in Boipatong?

MR TSHABANGU: People were armed with various arms.  Themba Mabotha had a 9 mm, if I remember well, he shot when we were passing the shops.
	Ruben also shot several times.  Dondo also fired several times and all the people I am mentioning, but I can't remember exactly as to who did what.   I cannot deny if someone was to come and say someone did this and that, since I had not seen that.

MR STRYDOM: Did your group go to Slovo Park or not?

MR TSHABANGU: We didn't reach Slovo Park.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry to interrupt you Mr Strydom, Mr Tshabangu, on this map which is Exhibit G, I think it is.  Using this pink highlight, would you indicate on this map the route that you followed when you, the point at which you entered and the point at which you went out?  Can you do that?

MR TSHABANGU: Sir, I would like to find out whether you are referring to my group, yes, sir I can state the point at which we entered.  I have a problem with the exit, I can't remember whether it is Mafikeng or Matolo of Hlewi, therefore I said in one of those streets.