Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-03

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, they did not refer to the SDU's, they actually said that we should attack anybody that we came across, any resident of Boipatong.

MS TANZER: So no reference was ever made to SDU's, comrades?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I'm hearing that for the first time.

MS TANZER: Now you stated in your affidavit on paragraph 10 on page 20 that on the day of the attack you saw Peens and a member of the South African Police Force, Chaka, arrive in Peens' private car and hand money over to Victor Kezwa.  Could you be certain - sorry?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that is correct, that was during the day on the 17th when Peens arrived at the hostel, that was just outside the hostel and he gave him some money, I'm not quite sure how much.

MS TANZER: Do you know the reason why he gave him money?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not have any knowledge why Peens gave Gadisi the money.

MS TANZER: Were you a member of Victor Kezwa's hit squad?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MS TANZER: Was Victor Kezwa present at the hostel on the day of the 17th June 1992, of the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I didn't see him on the day of the attack, I only saw him last during the day.

MS TANZER: Can you just clarify, did you see him last on that day but not in the evening?  When did you see him last?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I only saw him during the day, not in the evening, I did not see him at the meeting in the evening.

MS TANZER: Now you said that you have often seen Victor Kezwa meeting with Peens.  Did these meetings seem friendly or hostile?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They used to laugh together, that's what I can say.

MS TANZER: So it was not that Peens was interrogating Kezwa or anything like that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No that is not how they seemed, they seemed like happy in the company of each other.

MS TANZER: Did you ever discuss the attack on Boipatong with Victor Kezwa?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MS TANZER: Where did you receive the weapons and who gave you the weapons on the night of the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Damara Xongo.  I'm sorry Daki Xongo.

MS TANZER: Where were the weapons?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: These weapons were hidden in the ceiling to which I referred.  Near the showers.

MS TANZER: And at the stadium?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He placed the firearms there and said that each one of us should come and choose whatever weapon to take.

MS TANZER: Where did he place the firearms?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He scattered these weapons on the ground at the stadium.

MS TANZER: Can you tell us what happened at the stadium that evening before you proceeded to Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There was Indelesi.  We were made to drink this Indelesi.  After that there is another Indelesi which was sprinkled over our bodies so that we could not get shot.

MS TANZER: Did you sprinkle the Indelesi on your weapons?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes we had different types of Indelesi.

MS TANZER: How did you feel after drinking Indelesi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It intoxicated me and I felt like I had lost my mind a little bit.

MS TANZER: Who gave the Indelesi to the people at the stadium?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: If I still remember very well, I think it was Mtwana Zulu was at the stadium that night?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I saw him at the stadium on the day of the attack, that is at the hostel on the 17th.

MS TANZER: Did any of the Indunas or any leader speak to you at the stadium or speak to the people at the stadium regarding the impending attack at Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There were many Indunas, people such as Gatchene, they addressed us there and many others some of whose name I do not know and people such as Daki Xongo were present as well.

MS TANZER: Do you remember what they were saying to you, what was the message to the people?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I cannot remember very well what people like Damara was saying because the Indelesi was I think working at me at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, you swallow your words, Mr Nosenga, and you make it very difficult for us to understand.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Okay I understand.

MS TANZER: Did any women arrive at the stadium that night?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I saw only men because women were ordered to remain behind, they were not wanted at the stadium.

MS TANZER: Were they ordered to stay behind that night or before that night?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Because they were actually told before we went to the stadium, they were told that there was going to be a meeting on the 17th in the evening at the stadium and that they were not to come.  They were told during the day before we went to the stadium in the evening.  They were told about the meeting that very same meeting and that they were not wanted, only men who were wanted.

MS TANZER: Were you divided into groups and were you grieved about what would happen when you arrived at Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, we were not in groups.  We left the hostel in one group until we crossed the bridge where we came across Casspirs.

MS TANZER: Now can you just describe in a little more detail for this Commission from when you left the stadium till you reached the Casspirs, the direction you followed?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We took the main road, when you leave the Iscor from the gate you can join the main road, that's the one that we took and we went towards the BP and there was an open veld that we crossed through down to the bridge where we came across the Casspir.

MS TANZER: Who would you say was leading the attack on Boipatong?

MS TANZER: In my group I was being led by Induna Gatchene and other groups were led by different Indunas respectively.

MS TANZER: So were you divided into groups or did you just fall into groups?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There were others who were in Casspirs and others were walking on foot and we went to the entrance of the township where we decided to take different directions for cover.

MS TANZER: My question is, was it a planned action, was it planned into which groups you would be or did you just fall into groups informally?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I only started to know once we were with Peens, that's when I was informed as to who was going to be my Induna and into which group I will belong.

MS TANZER: And who informed you of this?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was Gatchene.

MS TANZER: How many Casspirs were waiting for you in the field?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There were four of them.

MS TANZER: Now did you enter into a Casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MS TANZER: Who was in the Casspir with you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I saw Peens, Chaka, Rooikop and one other white male who was driving, one other white person who was driving the Casspir.

MS TANZER: Did you know this driver?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I was seeing that person for the first time.

CHAIRPERSON: This other person, was he the driver?  You've mentioned Peens, Chaka, Rooikop?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: She was asking me as to who was driving the Casspir.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, well the person who you got into the Casspir with were Peens, Chaka, Rooikop?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that's what I said and other police people whom I did not know.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: How many of the policemen?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think there could have been six or five, I'm not quite sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS TANZER: How did you know they were policemen?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I saw Rooikop, the presence suggested to me that these people are police, the presence of Chaka as well and the others that I knew.

MS TANZER: And amongst the hostel dwellers, do you remember who were with you in the Casspir that night?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Will you please repeat the question?