Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... picture.  In your statement you said that this happened about 10 months after your husband had been shot.

WITNESS:   Which one is that?

MR LAX: (Inaudible)

WITNESS:   It was towards December when Thamsanqa was shot.  I don't remember how many months that is, but my husband had died in May and Thamsanqa was injured towards December.  It wasn't yet 10 months, it was from May to December, because it was before Christmas, but we were preparing for Christmas. Now, Thami was taken to hospital and he spent some time there.  Is he okay now?   ---   Thamsanqa is fine, but he was shot by the Springbok at school, Springbok Patrols.  His right hand is not working any more, he is paralysed on the right hand.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... happen?

WITNESS:   That happened in September.  In September.  It happened in September 1994 when he was shot by the Springbok Patrol at school.

MR LAX: Now, in 1991 you go certain information ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   I am not sure.  It's that other year.  It's that other year, not '95.  It should be 1994.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... now.  I am moving on with the story just so we can be clear.  You said that in 1991 a Sergeant Nxumalo came to you to say he was investigating your husband's case.

WITNESS:   Yes, Nxumalo came to me.  He is a detective.  He said to me he has taken this matter which was being handled by another boer guy.  He has taken this matter into his own hands now.  As he was just about to start searching and investigating the matter there came an Inkatha man or Inkatha member from Gaza.  This man said he had come to tell the police about how Ngcobo died.  When the police listened to him according to Nxumalo this man said Mr Ngcobo got to the hostel next to Mr Jerome's place.  He took the children.  I have grandchildren who are staying there, so my husband went to fetch these children.  That was on the 17th.  This boy said to us Nhlanhla, as well as other boys, they said they should take him and kill him at Umlahlankosi.  This is this Inkatha man now who was telling the police about the account.  When they got there they waited for my husband.  When my husband approached at Umlahlankosi they sent two girls.  They said to these girls they should stop the kombi as if they were hitching a hike.  They were also wearing school uniform.  These girls did exactly as they were told.  This was related by an Inkatha man.  At that time that's when they got a chance to kill my husband.  I asked them, now that they have got this information what was I supposed to do.  Then Nxumalo told me that they had already arrested Nhlanhla because he had told us where we would get Nhlanhla, and he also had the gun with which they killed my husband.  Nhlanhlazi was arrested.  Nxumalo went away.  A long time lapsed.  Nxumalo came back again.  He told me, "Mrs Ngcobo, I have come to tell you that your husband's case has been finalised."  I think it was after about eight months.  As well as Nhlanhla had been acquitted because the Inkatha men had killed the witness.  They had already heard that he had made a statement to the police.  They killed the Gaza man or the Gaza boy, and that the matter had been dealt with because there were no witnesses.  That was the end.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... can just go back and clarify a few things.  Let's start with your husband.  Was he a member of any political party?  Was he politically active at all?

WITNESS:   According to my knowledge I knew that my husband had nothing to do with politics.  I knew that he was just a businessman operating taxis for the community.  That's all I knew.  But as time went on all of us now we decided to join the ANC, because we had now split into two, there was Inkatha and there was ANC.  Now we decided we should be part of the boiling pot, belong to some political organisation of some sort.  I don't know about my husband's joining because some people keep to themselves about politics.

MR LAX: The two people that were charged before Gaza was killed, you've told us the one's name was Nhlanhla.  In your statement you've told us his surname was Luthuli.

WITNESS:   I said I knew of Nhlanhlazi.  The detective told me about Nhlanhlazi Luthuli.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... also mentioned Nkosinathi Mncwabe.

WITNESS:   I heard about Nkosinathi Mncwabe when my husband had died.  They told me that Nkosinathi was also here.  He was the one who was involved in the killing of my husband.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... Mncwabe?

WITNESS:   yes, they are related.  They said Nhlanhla he was Jerome Mncwabe's son.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... you told us that when you went to the scene where your husband's vehicle was, and where he was in his kombi after having been shot, that some policemen who were present started assaulting you, preventing you from getting anywhere near the kombi.  Do you know any of these people?

WITNESS:   I don't know the policemen because they were white policemen.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... said that one of these policemen later came to your house and was present when they were asking you where is your husband.  This was after the funeral, and you said you recognised him.

WITNESS:   I recognised him.  I don't know what his surname is, but I saw him when he came to my place so I can identify him.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... policemen were from which police station, or which unit perhaps?

WITNESS:   When I looked at them and when I heard about people talking it's as if they were at Pentrich Corner.  They were wearing uniform that looked like a print.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... we didn't catch that very carefully.  /Was it

MR LAX: Was it a camouflage uniform?

WITNESS:   There are certain police who wear clothes that have got a lot of colours.  They are also here in town, I do see them.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... called the Riot Control Unit, or the Internal Stability Unit as it later came to be known.  They wore those uniforms.

WITNESS:   Yes, these are the ones I'm referring to.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... that at the time the police came to search your house you knew one of the policemen there.

WITNESS:   I cannot point him now.  It's a long time since this happened, but then I saw him, because I even talked to him and I asked him, "How could you ask where my husband is, because you were there when they killed him?"

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... you mentioned the name of another policeman who was also present there when they were searching.

WITNESS:   I think it was van Tonder, who used to wear private clothes.  He came with those who came at the very last time when they took Mandla, when they had come to search for guns.  They said the name of that policeman was van Tonder.

MR LAX: Now, when Mandla came back did you make any case about his injuries and about the fact that he'd been assaulted?

WITNESS:   No, we never opened any case.  There was no way we could because at that time the police just didn't want anything.  Even if you came to open a case they absolutely didn't want to listen to anyone.  Because he was not very injured, he was just swollen, I just decided that I am not going to do anything about it.

MR LAX: Now, you said that at the time they were looking for Mkolisi Ngcobo.  Who is Mkolisi Ngcobo?

WITNESS:   That's my grandson.  Mkolisi Ngcobo was at home, and he was from somewhere.  When they were attacking my place they just grabbed Mkolisi as he was just getting in.  They said, "Yes, this is the one.  We saw him.  He must take out those guns."  And Mkolisi asked them where they saw him.  They just grabbed him, pulled him.  There were also black policemen on that particular day.  They tried to take him outside.  I also pulled him inside.  Then they said, "We are going to hit you."  I asked them what they wanted from my son because he had just come in.  What guns were they looking for, because he had just come in not having any guns?