Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-03

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember the month but it was after the attack on Boipatong but there was a rally in Ulundi, an IFP rally and IFP leaders such as Buthelezi and Felgate addressed that rally.  I travelled with Indwana in an E20, which was driven by Daki Xongo.  We were with other Isinduna, some of whom I did not know.

MS TANZER: What happened at the rally?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There were speeches made.  The one person who spoke was Themba Khosa because he was a leader from the Vaal Triangle.  He mentioned the Boipatong Massacre.  Dr Buthelezi, Mangosuto Buthelezi was pleased about what had happened because he made a speech after Themba Khosa had spoken and he spoke about the Boipatong Massacre and said that he was happy about it.

MS TANZER: Were you ever on the same stage as Chief Mangosuto Buthelezi where you were shown up as an ANC spy?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Can you please repeat that question?

MS TANZER: Were you ever on the same stage at the rally as Chief Mangosuto Buthelezi where you were shown up as an ANC spy?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, that is not true.  There was no way that an ANC person would be found in KwaMadala Hostel.  I do not think the ANC would support such a statement.

MS TANZER: What are your comments regarding your other applicants' allegations that you only joined the KwaMadala Hostel after June 17th 1992, that you were not at the hostel prior to the attack on Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know what they are talking about, that is their own fabrication.  I do not know about that.  The people from Boipatong know very well as to when I left Sebokeng.  Even now I cannot enter the township of Boipatong or Sebokeng.  I would like to challenge them on that matter because I do not know what they are talking about.

MS TANZER: What are your comments regarding the allegations that you were planted in the hostel by the ANC as a spy to blow up the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They do not know what they are talking about, they must be confused because they've made statements because what they have done is they are trying to shield the IFP leadership.  I would like somebody to come here, come forward and debate this matter with me.  If I was an ANC spy I should have been killed in the hostel.  As I mentioned before when I arrived they were suspicious of my presence but I explained everything to them.  I do not know what they are referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that shortly upon your arrival they did not trust you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct, they would not trust anyone who arrived at the hostel so they also did not trust me at first but eventually, as time went on, they learned to trust me.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have to do anything for them to trust you??

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes because I managed to go back to my own township to kill people of the township, that is how they began to trust me.

CHAIRPERSON: And when was that attack, was that in 1992?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The attack on Sebokeng?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes in 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: 15th of?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: 15th of June.

CHAIRPERSON: And you had been at the hostel since 1991?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now before - you don't remember the month when you arrived at the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I don't.

CHAIRPERSON: Prior to the attack on Sebokeng, did you do any other thing which ensured that you had the confidence of the hostel dwellers?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes because as an IFP member you have to wear the IFP tee-shirt publicly in town and that is how they will recognise you or identify you as an IFP member but for them to trust me, I proved myself by going back to Everton and shooting, killing people in that township.

MS TANZER: Why did you come forward regarding the attack on Boipatong if you were never charged or convicted in respect of this attack?

CHAIRPERSON: I thought that he has already told us that there were two reasons.  The first one was that he took part in the attack.  The second one was that the other applicants were not telling the truth.

MS TANZER: Thank you, is that correct what was just put to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I did say that I spoke about the Boipatong incident because we were not arrested or should I say not all of us were arrested and I decided to speak out because these people are not telling the truth.  There are many people who died with the police involved.  Many people from Boipatong who fled can testify to this effect.

MS TANZER: Now do you confirm the political objectives of the attack on Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MS TANZER: And to your mind, what were the political objectives of this attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did not go to Boipatong out of my volition, it was the IFP that was pushing us into committing the crime.  It is not something that I did on my own, we were actually being forced or pushed by the IFP to do this, that is why I am saying it is politically motivated.

MS TANZER: What are your comments regarding the other applicants who state that there were no police or military assistance during the Boipatong attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We should not play tennis at this Commission, many people died, old women, children and to now say that the police were not involved during the attack in June 1992 is not understandable by myself.  We are not playing marbles here like children.

MS TANZER: I've no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) what order are we going to follow?  Mr Lowies will start, right?  Cross-examining, followed by Adv Pretorius and then Mr Strydom.   You've not been implicated, unless you want him to say that they were there?

MR LOWIES: No Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay.  Okay then we'll cross over there, we'll start with Mr Berger, Malindi - no I beg your pardon.  Who is the last?  Okay, Cambanis and then of course subject to the rule that we don't cover the same grounds.
	Okay, 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.  I will look at your application this evening and then we will hear what Mr Berger and his colleagues have to say after concerning the application and then we will then indicate when we're going to hear the application.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: It concerns me that on more than one occasion we've had to start late after lunch because the legal representatives did not have their lunch in time.  If there is a problem shall we deal with that, I mean I don't know what is the problem but it does concern me because we've heard on more than one occasion when there is some delay in - and it concerns me because it interferes with the progress of the hearing.
	Mr Mapoma, would you look into this matter so that you just make sure that proper arrangements are made for the other legal practitioners ...(intervention)

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, pardon, I don't want to interrupt but Mr Klute says he will see to it that he orders our lunch a quarter of an hour before we stop if we just know what time we're going to stop for lunch.  That may solve the problem.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS