Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-04-21

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: De Klerk's government of oppression, who sent soldiers to cross the borders to come to the then Transkei because it was De Klerk's oppressive government that actually did this.
	That is why we wanted to humiliate them.

MR NOTUNUNU: Can you explain what you mean by humiliation?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: We wanted to show the government that their security system was weak, we were undermining their security system.  We wanted to show them that they couldn't just act any how towards the people any time they wanted.

MR NOTUNUNU: Now, did you amongst yourselves as comrades, take that decision to go and humiliate the government the way you have just explained?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Certainly sir, that is so.

MR NOTUNUNU: Now, where were you at the time you took this decision and when?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: We were all students in Durban.

MR NOTUNUNU: I haven't asked you that Mr Nyembezi.  My question is where were you at the time you took this decision and when was that?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: We were in Umtata sir, after we had left the funeral.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  By the way the funeral was conducted here in Umtata?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: That is correct sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: Tell me something Mr Nyembezi, for interest sake ...

CHAIRPERSON: You say we were in Umtata and this decision was taken after the funeral.  Who is we?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Comrades sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you name them?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Solomzi Nomatshizolo, Luzuko Mpiyakhe, Luyanda Ntikinca.

CHAIRPERSON: The four of you?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What you say in the papers that you decided to retaliate, did you discuss what this retaliation would entail?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: It was not attacking as such, however it was to show the government of the day in South Africa, that what they did was shameful.  At the time there were negotiations at the World Trade Centre.
	Fortunately those negotiations were handled by the ANC.  De Klerk did that to undermine the negotiations that led us to the democracy that we have today.

CHAIRPERSON: What I want to know, this application is about amnesty for the killing of policemen.
	When was that decision taken to kill the policemen?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I want to rectify something, the decision was not to go and kill policemen.  Our purpose was to humiliate the government of apartheid.
	I thought that I would get to the police matter later, when my Attorney asks me the question.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you Honourable Mr Chair.  Now, there you are after this moving funeral, you are taking this decision look, let's go to Kokstad police station and our purpose should be that of humiliating the South African government, whatever.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you have to go to Kokstad to do that?

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you.

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: As we took all police stations as our military targets, however it depends which one is more accessible to us according to our criteria as a soft target.
	Because we used to stay in Kokstad and we knew it well.

MR NOTUNUNU: Oh, by the way, you say you knew Kokstad very well and you were all staying in Kokstad, that is why you picked on it?

INTERPRETER: The applicant did not respond to the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct that you found Kokstad to be the most accessible of all the soft targets, because you stayed there and you knew the area well?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: That is correct sir, as I have already said.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you Honourable Chair.  Now just one thing Mr Nyembezi, before we proceed further.
	The two policemen who are alleged to have been killed herein, Mr Mbhele and Mr Ngubo, did you know these two policemen generally?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: No, I did not know them sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: There is something which has been said by Counsel Brink to me, that you were in fact staying in the same street with Mr Mbhele.  What is your comment to that?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: As I already said sir, I did not even know where Mr Mbhele stayed.

MR NOTUNUNU: Now, when you went to this police station, did you know that at the police station, you would find in particular Mr Mbhele and Mr Ngubo?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: No, we did not know that sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: Did you perhaps, when you went there, know how many policemen you would find at the police station?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

MR NOTUNUNU: How did you know that?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: One of them sir, were two of our group Luzuko and Luyanda, had a surveillance to check how many people were there.  It is common knowledge that you would find two or three people there, however, there was a surveillance made.

MR NOTUNUNU: I see.  Now, there you are, continue with your evidence, you are now at a stage where ...

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, just a minute, when was the surveillance done?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: A week before the funeral.

ADV GCABASHE: And what was the purpose ...

INTERPRETER: Could the interpreter get clarification from the applicant?  The applicant said the same week as the funeral, not the week before the funeral, the interpreter apologises.

ADV GCABASHE: And what was the purpose of the surveillance at that stage, before the funeral?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I already said that what the government had done, the government wanted to demean the negotiations.  We took all police stations as our military targets, as SDU's.
	That was our political motive when we were in the struggle, fighting against oppression of the Boers.

CHAIRPERSON: That surveillance, did it take place before or after the funeral?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Before the funeral.

MR NOTUNUNU: You may proceed.

ADV GCABASHE: And had you been going to the home of the family in that week before the actual funeral?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Then I think we need clarity, did the surveillance take place before or after the actual killing of the children?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Sir, everything happened after the tragedy.

CHAIRPERSON: The surveillance of that police station, did it occur as a result of a decision by you four?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Certainly sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you when that decision was taken?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: We were at school sir, as I said.  We endorsed the decision even on the day of the funeral.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is that school where you were at?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Mangosuthu Technikon sir, in Durban.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, proceed.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you Honourable Chair.  Mr Nyembezi, I think this needs some more clarification on your side, the surveillance and the decision taken.
	You had said to me you took the decision after the funeral, here in Umtata if I am not making a mistake, but I think you have just now said the Umtata thing, the Umtata decision taken was the endorsement of the decision you had taken before.  Could you clarify this because, and listen to the question and answer the question and think, listen properly.  Could you clarify this so that it be clear, because it is also not clear to me.  Could you clarify this point?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Sir, I said that this decision was motivated, it is the funeral that triggered such a decision for our people to be killed in such a brutal manner, by De Klerk's government.

CHAIRPERSON: How could the funeral have triggered that off when in fact the decision to survey the police station and embarrass the government of the time, had been taken in Durban before the funeral?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I did not say so sir, that we took the decision in Durban.
	I did not say that.

CHAIRPERSON: I understood that, and if I am wrong, then tell me what happened at Technikon at Durban?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: The decision sir, was taken on the day that we left Durban to go to the funeral.

ADV GCABASHE: Just stop there, what exactly was that decision?  Maybe that is where some of the confusion is.