Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: After this crime, what happened?   When were you arrested?

MR VAN STRAATEN: About two or three weeks after this incident we were arrested, after there was a R30 000,00 amount of reward on my head.  After my arrest, they arrested
1/	Dawid./...
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Dawid.   Gideon then brought them to my house, and they then arrested me.   The detectives then wanted to know from me where Willem was.   I told them that Willem was somewhere in Pretoria and that he had phoned me so that I could pick him up at the State Theatre.

<UNKNOWN>: You were then all arrested, you and Willem and Dawid, is that correct?

MR VAN STRAATEN: That is correct, I was then on my way to Pretoria where I would have shown them where Willem was.   On the way there, the detectives wanted to know from me what had happened, whether we were involved in the incident and so on.   I then told them that I knew nothing about the incident and that I wanted to make this a political matter and I stayed with this.

<UNKNOWN>: If you said that your matter would be political, what did you mean by this?

MR VAN STRAATEN: I meant that the fact that I gave the instructions to my brothers, and the fact that these were black night watchmen at this property, whom we killed, that my political goals were so strong, or were very strong, and that I was against black people.

<UNKNOWN>: If you said that these were your political purposes, what would your political purposes have been?

MR VAN STRAATEN: In view of the struggle we were involved in, the purpose was to oppose the government and to attempt to prove that we wanted self-determination, we wanted to govern ourselves.

<UNKNOWN>: Just for clarification, who would the government have been at that time, in 1989?   You keep referring to the government which you wanted to oppose, why, what did the government do at that time that you disagreed with?
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MR VAN STRAATEN: /...
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MR VAN STRAATEN: At that time it was the National Party who governed, I did not agree with their purposes, although there were votes, there was the referendum in 1982, this bore no fruits, the Afrikaner, especially right wing Afrikaners, were simply left in the cold.   The negotiations then continued without involving these people.

<UNKNOWN>: You said that when you were arrested by the police, you told them that you would make this a political crime, what was their reaction to this, what did they say to you?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Both of the officials were drinking on the way, all of them simply laughed at me and told me that they would lock me up, or that they would send us to the island and that I would never see people again.

<UNKNOWN>: What was this island, did he say what island?

MR VAN STRAATEN: He said Robben Island.   I simply told him that he could do what he wanted to and that I would keep with my statement.   Upon arrival at Pretoria, I showed them where Willem was, whom they then arrested.   We then returned to Vereeniging, but I was locked up for about two weeks, and I was unable to contact anyone.

<UNKNOWN>: Eventually you made a statement.   After how long did you make this confession?

MR VAN STRAATEN: It was about two weeks later, I then... (TAPE ENDS - WORDS MISSING - START OF SIDE B) ...after about 3 1/2  months I went out on bail, I then returned to my own home, and there, after a further month, I was able to come in contact with Robbie Coetzee.   He, however, caught fright when he saw me, he was astounded to see me.   I had a conversation with him and he played cat and mouse with me, told me not to panic, but that he would try and get hold of
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some legal representation for me.   The thing continued in this vein.   He then disappeared and I have never seen him or never saw him for a further six months.   One of my other friends then approached me and told me that he knew where Robbie was.   I arranged, and on a particular evening I went through, I found Robbie in Orkney where he stayed, I saw him there that evening, he again caught fright when he saw me and told me that I should not panic, but that the matter would be taken care of, and that is all that happened.  After a further two - sorry...

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Chair, indeed, I will return to this to clear it up at a later stage, but the initial notion or instruction came from this Robbie Coetzee.   The events with regard to the crime, I need to clarify the role of Robbie Coetzee in this regard.    You then came into contact with Robbie, did he assist you in any way?

MR VAN STRAATEN: No, in no way.   After about a year of this case, I never heard anything further from him.   When I next heard from him or of him, his sister-in-law told me that he died in a mine accident.

<UNKNOWN>: Looking back on the crime of 1989, what was the role of Robbie Coetzee in this regard?

MR VAN STRAATEN: He tried to manipulate me and if I think about it today, he actually exploited me, he abused me and when our case came to trial, I was in the dark, I didn't know what to do, and then I made a confession in which I told what my part in the offence was, and that's where the matter stood, and we were punished according to the confession.

<UNKNOWN>: Now this Robbie Coetzee, what would you say, how did he persuade you to make these plans or commit the
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offence, what was his role in the actual planning of the initial offence?
JUDGE WILSON(?): ...persuaded him to commit this offence, you cannot put words in his mouth.

HASSAN MALL: He said he created a cell with his brothers and he told his brothers what they were going to do, Coetzee was not in it.

<UNKNOWN>: I will rephrase the question.    This Robbie Coetzee, what role did he play in the initial offence of 1989?

MR VAN STRAATEN: As I said, he tried to use me, and he tried to make me a member of the AWB, I didn't want to become a member of the AWB, and that's where the matter ended, he just wanted to use me.

<UNKNOWN>: Right.   Now we come to your trial.   You say you made a confession and you stood by it?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes, that's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Can you remember, at the start of the trial did you plead guilty or not guilty?

MR VAN STRAATEN: I made the confession and I later pleaded guilty to robbery, but not guilty of murder.

<UNKNOWN>: Right.   You were then sentenced to 13 years?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes, I was sentenced to altogether 13 years imprisonment for murder and robbery.

<UNKNOWN>: You are currently in the Zonderwater Prison just outside Pretoria, is that correct?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: And you're in Medium A section?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Do I understand you correctly that it is a minimum security prison, that section of the prison?
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MR VAN STRAATEN: /...
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MR VAN STRAATEN: Yes.   Yes, we're not locked up at night, and I have progressed so far that I actually work outside the prison and that's all contributed to the changes that have taken place in my life and you must qualify to be given these privileges.

<UNKNOWN>: If you look back to 1989 and what happened then, what are your views about what happened now?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Well, I was still very stupid then and today I realise that negotiations are the only way forward and that violence can never solve anything, and I'm very sorry about the people that died and I'm really sorry about that.

<UNKNOWN>: I have no further questions, chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, any questions?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.   Your father, was he a member of any political organisation?

MR VAN STRAATEN: As far as I can remember, he was a member of the Ossewa Brandwag.   As I said, I was about ten years old when my father died.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was he a leader in that movement?

MR VAN STRAATEN: Pardon me?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was he a leader in the movement of the Ossewa Brandwag?

MR VAN STRAATEN: I really don't know.