Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-19

MR TAKA: But are there any instances that you can refer to where you specifically said: "We are now planting these explosives in a residential area of the supporters of the National Party Government, like you did in a residential area of the supporters of the ANC?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, therefore we could have used other targets like railway lines and power lines which one can say they belonged to the government of the day at that time which was the National Party.

MR TAKA: So in this particular instance your target was mainly black people because this did not happen in  white areas?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, that was not the intention.  The ANC office on Bothaville is in the middle of town.  And if you look at the amnesty application you'd find that this ran into three phases.  When we started there were explosions in the black townships, shortly thereafter and even in that time, it was shifted away from black areas to the railway lines specifically in order to minimise the risk of fatal accidents and also the injuries of people.
	Whilst we were busy with the railway lines and at the end of that time we started moving away from the railway lines specifically because we were also scared of that specific danger, and we went to the power lines of Eskom and we started blowing them up.

MR SIBANYONI: But Mr Labuschagne, if I understand Mr Taka's question very well, he wants to know where there is any instance where you only targeted a residential area occupied by supporters of the National Party?  Was there any such instance or not?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, as far as the ANC offices are concerned in Bothaville, 10/20 metres from those offices there could have been National Party members who were unknown to me.

MR SIBANYONI: But there your main target was the ANC office in Bothaville.  He wants to know strictly about residential areas where National Party supporters are staying.

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: You never had such an instance?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Taka.

MR TAKA: You have clarified that.  Why is it that you did not target National Party supporters, if I may just ask?  Was there any specific reason why residential areas belonging to National Party supporters were excluded from your operations?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, it was not necessary to do that because the whole country was full of railway lines and the Eskom power lines were sufficient, so we did not deem it necessary to act against people in residential areas if it was not necessary to create propaganda.  And at that point the power lines and the railway lines were sufficient as far as that was concerned.

MR TAKA: You say that you had express instructions not to kill and not to injure people, is that correct?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: That's completely correct, yes.

MR TAKA: Now coming back to Moyakeng(?) again.  You placed a bomb in a street a few metres from residential houses, did you not foresee that people could be injured as a result of the explosion?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: That is so, people could have been injured or even killed but we had to do something to get the attention of the government of the day and the ANC, in order for them to negotiate about a Volkstaat for us but they were very arrogant about that and they wouldn't give us a chance to talk about this.

MR TAKA: In fact in Moyakeng two people were actually injured, one quite seriously, you are aware of that?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, in a newspaper cutting which I read it was written that two people were lightly injured.  Unfortunately I don't have it with me but that's they way I understood it.

MR TAKA: For your information, if I may explain to you, one of the people who was injured is Mr Bayo, Maria Bayo ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just spell that name please, Mr Taka.

MR TAKA: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just spell that name please.

MR TAKA: That is Mrs Maria Bayo: B-A-Y-0.
	Now she sustained a deep laceration on her head and as a result of that incident today even she suffers constant and continuous bouts of headaches so that she is virtually living on pain killers.  Were you aware of this?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, I wasn't aware of that.

MR TAKA: Do you agree with me that the fact that she was injured for example, is not in line with the instructions you received because your express instructions was to ensure that people are not killed, people are not maimed, people are not injured.  So this particular incident was in gross violation of your express instructions, is that correct?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, as soon as one starts playing with explosives, there is no way one can say before the time that people are or are not going to be injured and therefore we did it with our belief and we prayed beforehand that it shouldn't happen.  If you look at the total amount of charges which are laid up against us out of all the things that happened then it's only grace that not more people died or got injured.

MR TAKA: So you were aware all the time that if you play with explosives, there's no question of people not being injured or killed, notwithstanding the fact that your instruction was to ensure that this does not happen?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, we had to prove our point and this point was to get the government of the day and the ANC talking about a Volkstaat.  And if we did it in any other way there wouldn't have been any results because they wouldn't have then deemed it necessary to listen to us and our leaders.

MR TAKA: You see, Mr Labuschagne, my worry is that you've just told this Committee that when you play with explosives there is no question of people not being injured or even killed.  You even go to the extent of saying it is by the grace of God that no more people were injured or killed in the process.  So this is now in contradiction with your express instructions from your commander.  You were told to ensure that nobody is injured, nobody is killed but you play with a device which you know very well that is going to kill and it is going to injure.   Your comment?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, as I've said before, there is no way, not even the person who gives the instruction can ensure that this might or might not happen.
	If we wanted to commit murder, which was not our purpose right from the start, then there were a few things we could have done.  We could have shot individuals or murdered them.  We could have attacked taxi ranks during daytime, by means of bombs.  We could have attacked black business centres during daytime or whilst there were people there.  Also public meetings, for example sports stadiums, gatherings, meetings, and several other things.  We could have attacked these things.  We didn't do it because we are not murderers and we didn't want to be murderers either.
	As I've said, the times we chose to do these things seemed to me from the time that we placed the bombs there within the black townships, that there would have been very little movement, it was late at night and people would probably have been sleeping.  So in order to attain our goals we had no other choice but to do this, but the exception of injuries or the exclusion of death and injury, we could not remove that possibility.

MR TAKA: Still on that point.  In Viljoenskroon, that is count number 6, where exactly did you place the explosive device?

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, that specific evening I drove the vehicle so I was present in the vehicle but me myself, I did not place the bomb next to the house.  It is one of the other applicants who can answer that.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you see where the bomb was placed or not?