Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-18

MS MOROKA: You state in your supplementary affidavit at paragraph 7 that you were informed about the ballistic and medical evidence tendered at the inquest.  You then further state at paragraph 8 that you accept that you may have killed or injured some of the marchers.  Is that correct?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

MS MOROKA: Can you tell the Committee why it is that you say you fired this shot?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: It was our duty to protect Shell House and the property that was within and the leaders.  We shot on that day
from where we were.  Even after we have left the gunshots went on and that is when I decided to shoot just to repel these people whom I thought at that stage they were going to attack.

MS MOROKA: Mr Moolman why have you applied for amnesty?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: In consultation with my legal representative they told us that it would be difficult to say that this was just a case of self-defence.  I might have exceeded the bounds of self-defence.

MS MOROKA: You explained on page 95 your justification for your actions on the day in question.  Can you in your own words explain to the court, I beg you pardon, explain to the Committee why you were of the view and are of the view that you were justified on shooting on this day with special reference to the forthcoming elections?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I have been fighting for human rights for many years and it was my dream to see people living happily ever after.  And I saw people dying in this struggle fighting for human rights.  It was very important that the fruits of their toil be seen.  I didn't wish that they be left without being noticed at all.  Parents died and their children left behind.  Now the elections were very important for that reasons.

MS MOROKA: Thank you Chairperson I have no further questions for the witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOROKA.

MR PRETORIUS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Moolman when you fired the shot did you look at the crowd at which you were firing now?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I just shot at the marchers there was just one
group on that day I shot at the group.

MR PRETORIUS: But did you look at them did you see what  they were doing?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: There were gunshots from their side and others  were charging forward.

MR PRETORIUS: : So according to your observation they were in the process to attack at that stage.  Is that correct?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: Yes according to my recollection.

MR PRETORIUS: : And you only fired one shot?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: : At that stage that you were firing you were positioned on the parapet roughly halfway between King George and de Villiers Street, that's the corner of King George and de Villiers Street, and the corner of King George and Plein Street in other words roughly halfway along that block on the parapet.  Is that correct?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I do not quite understand you, repeat your question.

MR PRETORIUS: : The position where you were standing at the stage that you fired the shot was roughly halfway on that block of the parapet that is between the corner of King George and de Villiers and the corner of King George and Plein Street?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: : Do you say that shots were fired at you whilst you were standing in that position?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I would say when I was taking cover some of the shots were heard hitting just where I was.

MR PRETORIUS: : No I want to get this clear, you were initially standing at the on the parapet at the corner of King
George and de Villiers Street.  Is that correct?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: : After the first shots were fired you then ducked underneath the parapet wall and ran to the position midway between the two blocks we've already indicated and that from the last mentioned position, that is where you fired your shots from.  Is that correct?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: : Now the shots that were fired at you speaking to you personally in the position where you personally were,  were they fired when you were positioned on the corner of King George and de Villiers Street or when you were in the position roughly middle in the block before you fired your shots your shot?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: When you referred to being shot at or, or what do you refer to Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: The question is were the shots fired at you personally, where were you at that time?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I said I took cover underneath the parapet and I still heard shots hitting the building that is the building behind me where I was.  I refer now to Shell House itself.

MR PRETORIUS: : But was that whilst that you were still standing at the corner of King George and de Villiers Street or whilst you were standing in the position in the middle of the block immediately before you fired your shot?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: It was after I have left the corner of de Villiers and King George.

MR PRETORIUS: : In other words in the position you were standing in the middle of the block immediately before you fired your shot?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct?

MR PRETORIUS: : Mr Moolman the ballistic experts could find no evidence of a shot at Shell House in the position where you stood when you fired your shot.  The only ballistic evidence that could be found of shots that struck the parapet was at the corner of King George and de Villiers Street.

MR CURRIN: Chairperson, sorry.  My learned friend is not correct again the ballistic reports say that shots may well have hit the tower block of Shell House because of the nature of the material with which Shell House the tower block is constructed it was not possible to say whether dents in the concrete were as a result of a natural process or whether that, that was as a result of shots having hit the building.  But what the ballistic report definitely expressly does not exclude are shots that hit the tower block of Shell House which is what this witness has just said.

MR PRETORIUS: : Mr Chairman there was no evidence of a shot that struck the parapet in a position where this witness stood.  The ballistic experts said in their report that they cannot exclude the fact that there could have been marks as against Shell House.  They however could find no one which they could indicate, not even a dent that was possible to say that it is a possibility hatt, that particular dent was caused by a shot as against the tower building of Shell House.  My question therefore stands.

CHAIRPERSON: At some stage I would like to get some clarity, bearing in mind your clients attitude that they were unarmed and did not fire and so on that is going to be their evidence
that is the stand that they've taken.  Now the purpose of this cross examination about details is as to were shots fired or were not fired, what was that supposef to achieve?

MR PRETORIUS: : Mr Chairman according to the ballistic evidence there was, if I remember correctly three maybe four shots that were fired at the parapet at the corner of King George and de Villiers Street.  According to an independent witness Mr Dias who we have already referred to he observed one of the marchers after the initial shots and after the people fell down and were crying and shouting shooting blindly into the air with an AK-47.  My clients do not dispute that there was such a person the object of evidence prove that however ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that.