Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I shot everybody, everybody I come across in the house.  Whether it was a woman, a man or a child, I didn't care about that, I wanted to kill because my intention was to kill there.

MR STRYDOM: You also said that you've shot people but you cannot say that they died, do you still stand by that?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR STRYDOM: Why don't you know if they died or not?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: After shooting a person I didn't go and look as to whether he is dead or not, I went on.

MR STRYDOM: Now apart from the houses in Papedi Street, can you indicate on this map other houses where you went into?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: In this street I'm pointing to my lawyer.

MR STRYDOM: The witness points to Sekukuni Street.  	Sekukuni Street is one street away from Slovo Park, did you go into Slovo Park at all?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, I did not.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember which route you followed from Sekukuni Street to get to the other side of Boipatong to leave the township?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I remember which road I followed.

MR STRYDOM: Can you just give an indication?  Just for the record, the witness points that he took Bafokeng Street and he stayed in Bafokeng Street right through Boipatong on his way to leave Boipatong.  The witness also pointed out certain houses towards the end of Bafokeng Street.
	What do you want to say about them?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is where I took the blankets and certain goods.  It's a yellow house and big windows.

MR STRYDOM: Just for the record, the witness points to a ...(intervention)

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: There's a yellow house, I don't know whether it's on this side or not but it's a yellow house with big windows.

MR STRYDOM: The house numbers being pointed to is in the vicinity of 738 to 740, 742 and 744, in the vicinity of those four houses in Bafokeng Street.
	Is that correct, that area there?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What house numbers?

MR STRYDOM: The area he shows is 738, 740, 742 and 744, more or less that area there.
	Those houses, is that correct?  Is that the area there where the yellow house is to be found?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, those are the houses where I took the property.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is 738 here?

MR STRYDOM: 738 is - let me explain it like this.  Bafokeng Street forms a corner there with Shlube Street, towards the end of the map on the left-hand side.  The house on the corner is 734, the next on is 736 and then 738, 740, 742.  So that's the general area the witness has pointed out.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay.  Is that a place where there is a cross which is encircled in pink, at least on my Exhibit J?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I haven't got that on my map, my map has been used at the criminal trial and there are many other crosses, so I can't really verify that.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, but what he is pointing - he's point out at the vicinity of the point where Bafokeng meets Shlube Street, is that right?

MR STRYDOM: The point he points out is more to the right-hand side of the map.

CHAIRPERSON: But it is in that vicinity?

MR STRYDOM: Ja, in that vicinity, those houses in that vicinity.
	So those are the houses you took the property.  Did you leave after that in the direction of Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR STRYDOM: After you've left Boipatong and when you got back to the hostel, did you go back to the stadium or directly to your room?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I went to my room first.

MR STRYDOM: And after that?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I put the property that I brought with me and the gun that I had and I checked the bullets which were left and then I realised that I was left with only three bullets.  Then I took my gun and I put it in a safe place and then I slept after that.

MR STRYDOM: Where did you hide your gun?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I hid this gun in a place which was used as a kitchen before.  That is where I hid my gun.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know Prince Vanana Zulu?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR STRYDOM: Was he part of the attack?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, he was not.

MR STRYDOM: According to your own personal knowledge, was he at the hostel at the time of the attack?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, he was not at the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: You've already testified that you know Victor Keswa.

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Was he there on the day of the attack?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, he was not.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know where he was?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Victor Keswa was a person who was arrested from time to time.  He was once arrested under Article 3.  On many occasions the police would come and collect him.  Even when they meet him somewhere they would just take him and arrest him.

MR STRYDOM: Whilst you were in Boipatong, did you see that any person or any woman was raped?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, I did not see anything.  The way the situation was then, it wouldn't be possible for me to see a person who was raping.  If I had seen somebody raping I would imagine that he is one of the people that we were going to attack because the people who were with me would not do that.

MR STRYDOM: One last aspect. You referred to groups, now whilst moving through Boipatong, did the specific groups stay together in a close formation, or can you explain the people's movement through the township?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: We spread ourselves in the township, we were not in groups.

MR STRYDOM: You said that you were, as far as you can remember, with Mr Mkhize's group, when was he last time for you to see him after you've entered Boipatong?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: The last time I saw him was when he said that we should divide into amabuto.  That was the last time that I saw him.  When we entered Boipatong and started fighting I didn't see him.

MR STRYDOM: You said that you saw people firing shots, including Mr Mkhize, when did you see that he fired a shot?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is when we entered Boipatong.  That is the place where we saw the comrades.

MR STRYDOM: You also said that Smith fired a shot, where did you see him?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Smith was always with me, shooting all the time.  I would kick the door and then he'll get in and start shooting and at some times he would kick the door and I would start shooting.

MR STRYDOM: And Sipho Buthelezi?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: He had a "haelgeweer".

MR STRYDOM: Just to get back to Smith, what kind of weapon did he have?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: He had a shotgun, that is the gun he had with him.  That was his own gun.

MR STRYDOM: Is that the same as Sipho Buthelezi, a "haelgeweer"?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I've already explained that Sipho Buthelezi had a "haelgeweer".

MR STRYDOM: Maybe I just heard wrongly.  I just want to get clarity.  Did he say a "short" or a "shotgun"?
	Smith's firearm, was it short gun or a shotgun?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: It was a small gun.

MR STRYDOM: .765, is that correct?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM: And Sipho Lukozi?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Sipho Lukozi had an AK47.

MR STRYDOM: When did he fire shots?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I met him in the township.  I don't know when he started shooting but I met him in the township.

MR STRYDOM: And Themba Mabote?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: He's one of the people that I met inside the township.  I met him inside the township.

MR STRYDOM: Where did you see him firing a shot?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I saw him running but I could not see whether he was shooting somebody because the people he was shooting at were on the street.