Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-18

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, who is next Mr Obose?

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman, Mr Toto.

CHAIRPERSON: Say again?

MR OBOSE: Mr Toto, Mr Chairman.  The application pages 51 to 57.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

N S TOTO: (sworn states)

MR OBOSE: Thank you your Lordship.
	What rank are you holding in the South African Police Services?

N S TOTO: I'm an inspector now.

MR OBOSE: In 1994 in March what rank were you holding?

N S TOTO: I was a ...(indistinct) sergeant.

MR OBOSE: Were you also attached to the Bisho Police College?

N S TOTO: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: There is a structure there, ...(indistinct)?

N S TOTO: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: Did you attend the meeting at Bisho College Hall that morning?

N S TOTO: Yes I used to go and be in that meeting.

MR OBOSE: What was going on there and do you know also why there was such a meeting?

N S TOTO: I knew because the people were going to address the meeting were from the training centre in the morning.  It was in connection with the elections.

MR OBOSE: Who were these?

N S TOTO: If I can still remember well it was the late Inspector Says and Captain Valdane.

MR OBOSE: Those were attached to the police college?

N S TOTO: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: Do you know if they did address the meeting?

N S TOTO: I don't know whether they addressed it or not because I knew at that morning that there was going to be a meeting.

MR OBOSE: Now you say you kept on going to observe the proceedings there, did you at any stage get to be seated or to attend the meeting as such?

N S TOTO: Yes I was there from time to time.

MR OBOSE: Now what was going on, on the occasions, what did you see happening?

N S TOTO: When I went to the meeting, I found out that there were police saying that they were waiting for the commissioner because they were called to be addressed by the commissioner.

MR OBOSE: Yes, proceed?

N S TOTO: I also waited.  After that the commissioner didn't arrive.  After waiting, we will still waiting for the commissioner the police would arrive and I observed that the NCOs and the officers were arriving.  As time goes by, when the commissioner didn't arrive the situation at the hall changed a little bit.

MR OBOSE: How?

N S TOTO: Because in the morning people were going to be addressed in connection with the elections and the commissioner arrived saying that he was going to address them but he was not specific about what he was going to address them.  During the proceedings the issues like the future of the police after the elections came up and those were the questions that were supposed to be asked to the commissioner when he arrived.

MR OBOSE: Yes, proceed?

N S TOTO: Unfortunately every time the commissioner didn't arrive and issues were discussed and people were singing according to my perception because nobody was complaining, everybody was singing and about the financial issue it was raised but a particular person who was responsible for finance was supposed to be there so that he can be able to answer the questions that were asked.

MR OBOSE: Was this during the day now or in the evening?

N S TOTO: Because I'm just summarising, it was late at the time.

MR OBOSE: Now you mentioned at some stage that a meeting changed, what do you mean by changed?

N S TOTO: It changed in this sense, the meeting was initially called to discuss election issues so the issues about finance and the singing of freedom songs it made me to see that it was no longer about elections.

MR OBOSE: Were any slogans chanted?

N S TOTO: Can you please explain what a slogan is?

MR OBOSE: At least as I understand it, viva this or that, down with this and that, I'm saying in the context of South Africa of course.

N S TOTO: Yes I can still remember such slogans.

MR OBOSE: What slogans do you recall?

N S TOTO: I remember the slogan viva Popcru because there were police there so that was related to the police.

MR OBOSE: Were any such slogans "down with Gqozo" chanted?

N S TOTO: Yes I can still remember those slogans too.

MR OBOSE: Did you bring any officer to the meeting?

N S TOTO: Yes I was in a convoy when this officer was fetched who was Captain Sawuti who is a Superintendent today.

MR OBOSE: Did you speak to Captain Sawuti?

N S TOTO: No I didn't open my mouth, I didn't speak to him that particular day.

MR OBOSE: And how did you happen to be in the convoy that went to his house?  How did you get to know that people were going there?

N S TOTO: Because I had a room at the training centre at the time, I met with Sergeant Gimana, he was going out at the time saying that I was going to look for Captain Sawuti and Mawangu.  I then got into that car, it was him, himself and
Inspector Nkwenkwe.  We arrived at Captain Sawuti's but there was a car that was already there and we could see that that was a police car and the people who were there were Inspector Tyali, Inspector Nqinana and Inspector Moleshe.

MR OBOSE: So did you know as to why he was needed in the meeting?

N S TOTO: I found out whilst I was going in and out of the meeting that I found out why other people were needed there, for example is I can still remember well I think he was needed in connection with financial issues.

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Obose.  Mr Nompozolo, any questions?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: And you Ms Collett?

MS COLLETT: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?   Re-examination?

ADV BOSMAN: No questions thank you.

MR OBOSE: None thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Mr Toto, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED