Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR TLOUBATLA: And then after - alright, let me rather put it this way - when did he give you the firearm and how long did you keep that firearm?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: In early 1986 I received para-military training in Zaminie, this lasted for 2 weeks.  This was just a short course and I was trained as to how to use firearms such as 3.8 which is a revolver, 3.7 Magnum and 9mm firearms.  During that period, because of the conflict of the war, I had the firearm with me all the time.  This was the firearm provided by comrade Tamee.

MR TLOUBATLA: Who was giving you the para-military training and where was this?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: The training was in Zaminie (?).  I was trained by comrade Sam Siema and comrade Tamee (indistinct).

MR TLOUBATLA: Is it true that after this incident you actually went into exile?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: That is true.

MR TLOUBATLA: And did you joint any organisation, which organisation and what did you do?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I joined the military wing of the BCMA which is AZANLA, Azanian Liberation Army.

MR TLOUBATLA: And then, yes just tell us, what did you do in the AZANLA?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I skipped the country into Botswana, we went to the BCMA organisation and immediately thereafter we joined the military wing, which is AZANLA and we got a further training.

CHAIRPERSON: Because of the tenuous, if any, relevance of his activities post the incident, I don't think we need to go into details.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I won't go into any details further but - when did you come back to the country?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: It was in 1984, 1994 in August, I am sorry.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman I think that will be all for the moment, I don't have any further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe you can just say, throughout your period in exile, were you involved in the programmes and activities of BCM or AZANLA?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I was involved in the activities of BCMA and AZANLA throughout my exiled life.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TLOUBATLA

CHAIRPERSON: How do you think or what possible political purpose would the killing of these boys or boy have served?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Chairperson yes there was a political purpose for the killing of these boys.  Before these comrades were killed,
I was a member of a political organisation called AZAPO.  AZAPO was a political organisation and it had a political programme of conscientising the people about the political situation in the country.  There were conflicts between AZAPO and the UDF, now our work of conscientising the people and teaching them the politics of the country and making them aware of the cruelty of the apartheid regime.  We did not manage to carry forward our political programmes because there were no-go areas.  We could not go to areas such as Pafeni, Mpumalong, Dumi (?) because these places were dominated by the UDF - places such a Diepkloof also.  Now we had to commit this act so that we can recruit people to join our organisation which is AZAPO, to join in large numbers to fully understand the political situation at home without any fighting.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you through Mr Tloubatla?

MR TLOUBATLA: I'm through sir.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mphoreng didn't AZAPO and the UDF have a sort of common goal in that they were fighting against the apartheid regime?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: According to my political knowledge there was a common goal between AZAPO and UDF, but the difference between the two organisations was that there strategies to fight the apartheid regime were not the same, that is where we differed with the UDF.  We believed that the political problems in this country were problems affecting mostly the Black people.  The Black people were supposed to be in charge of their own freedom.  We did not see White people as having contribution in this whole problem because they were part of the problem.

ADV BOSMAN: And today how do you feel, is AZAPO still in existence and is the UDF still in existence and is there still this essential difference in approach?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Things have change politically, we have a new government elected by the people in their majority.  AZAPO still exists, but there is no UDF anymore.

ADV BOSMAN: And how do you feel about AZAPO's position in the community, are you still at loggerheads with other groups within the community?  When I say at loggerheads I mean is there still strife between AZAPO and other groups in the community?  The reason why I'm asking you this question Mr Mphoreng is that the Amnesty Committee must also take into consideration whether amnesty in a matter like this would benefit the whole reconciliation process and I'm trying to ascertain what you feelings are at the moment.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman wants to know is, we know there will always be political parties and no the same parties and the like, we accept there will always be opposition in politics, contests for turf and all that but we want to know whether there is still violent strife going on.  Violent conflict between the two groups as it were?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Thank you Chairperson.  I have mentioned that things have changed.  We have a new government elected by the majority of the people.  There are no conflicts anymore between AZAPO and UDF.  The fights that we experienced in the early '80s are no more.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you feel that the killing of these victims had in fact served any purpose?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Yes I believe the killing of these boys served a certain purpose.  We were members of a political organisation and we had to defend our members and defend our organisation.  There's no person who'd join a political organisation and thereafter not be provided with security.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink do you want to put questions now or after Mr Ameen?

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman I'll do it now, I'll be very brief.  I want to go back to the interrogation of these six youths.  You wanted to find out whether they were supporters of UDF or members of UDF?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: We wanted to know whether they were members of UDF and SOSCO.

MR BRINK: Right and on your evidence they admitted to being members or supporters of UDF or SOSCO after they'd been beaten up?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: After I had assaulted Oscar he agreed that he
was a member of SOSCO.

MR BRINK: And the other people there, the remaining five, were they also beaten up as a result of which they said they were supporters or members of SOSCO?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: According to the reports that I got from comrade Tamee and comrade Sam Siema and comrade Cadalo (?) who were part of the interrogation, they told me that the boys they assaulted agreed that they were members of SOSCO.

MR BRINK: Now lastly, I just want to be absolutely clear, who gave the order that these six youths should be murdered?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I got the order from comrade Tamee (?) and comrade Sam Siema.

MR BRINK: Can you tell me what their position was in AZAPO, what office they held.  Were they senior to you or were they ordinary members such as you were?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Comrade Tamee (?) was a senior leader of the organisation.  He was in the national leadership of Azanian Student Leadership and comrade Sam Siema was a senior member in AZAPO but I do not quite remember his position but he was a very senior person in AZAPO.

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Mphoreng.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ameen?

MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman I would prefer to defer cross examination.  If the last applicant could be heard, I will have a short consultation with my clients and then cross examine all three of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Shouldn't we now go back to the initial procedure.

MR AMEEN: We could, if I could have a short adjournment just to consult with them, I won't be long.