Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-16

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you continue believing that they exist?

MR MASHAMBA: It's because where I'm referring to at Chimbuve there's a no go area which is said to be a place for the zombis and nobody will have ever reached that place.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but you haven't seen it?

MR MASHAMBA: It's not possible to see them because you can't reach that place where they are.

CHAIRPERSON: Now let's assume that they only stay there.

MR MASHAMBA: Maybe it's the place for them, maybe during the time that they want to be released to do their job outside there.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, well I was getting to that now.  You say that Joseph used zombis?

MR MASHAMBA: No, I've said Joseph was the person who committed ritual murder, I didn't say he used the zombis.

CHAIRPERSON: You said Mafune made these zombis for Joseph or did you not say that?

MR MASHAMBA: No, I didn't mention that.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, whoever made it, what is wrong with the zombi?  What is so bad about it?

MR MASHAMBA: It's a problem because there will be a person who will be taken and then be turned into a zombi and that person it's believed he or she is not dead, by then they will be making him to work very hard.

CHAIRPERSON: A slave?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now where would they work?

MR MASHAMBA: I think they used to work in the fields which used to be cultivated.

CHAIRPERSON: And you've never seen over 20 years any zombi in this field or any field?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes but I'm not staying in the same village with that person, I'm staying in the other village.  The only thing is that the villages are close by.

CHAIRPERSON: In your village there's no zombis?

MR MASHAMBA: No, there's no zombis we were only disturbed by this person who was committing ritual murder.

CHAIRPERSON: After 20 years don't you doubt the existence of the zombi?  You've never seen one in 20 years, have you never ask yourself do these things really exist?

MR MASHAMBA: I simply believed that just there is a name that was a name zombi, it means that a thing called zombi did exist.

CHAIRPERSON: But have you never doubted that it exists?

MR MASHAMBA: No I have no doubt, I think from my perception I think they are there.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were told now these people involved themselves in zombis?

MR MASHAMBA: Could you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: You were told that Joseph and Mafune and those types of people were involved in the use of zombis?

MR MASHAMBA: With Joseph, Joseph was involved in ritual murder.  Mafune was involved in zombis including his friends.  They were involved also including witchcraft but Joseph was only involved in ritual murder.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.
	From your knowledge who in government did Joseph assist?

MR MASHAMBA: I didn't hear your question, could you please repeat?

MS PATEL: The question was from your knowledge who did Joseph assist, who did he help with his ritual murders?

MR MASHAMBA: He was helping himself.

MS PATEL: Did he himself hold any political position or position in government?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes he was speaker of the parliament.

MS PATEL: Okay I think I misunderstood your initial testimony then.  Well perhaps you can explain, excuse my ignorance but if Mafune's speciality if one can call it that, was turning people into zombis and Joseph's was in ritual murders, why would Joseph go to Mafune for assistance?

MR MASHAMBA: It's because Joseph was a ritual murderer but he doesn't know the medicines that is why he had to go to Mafune who knows about the medicines.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand it, he would commit the ritual murder, dissect the victim and take the necessary parts to Mafune to manufacture a pharmaceutical result.  Do you follow?

MS PATEL: I do, thank you Honourable Chairperson.
	So then it seems that we sit here with the unusual position of somebody who holds some kind of political position who committed his own ritual murders in order to enhance his own power.

CHAIRPERSON: Sure enhance the idea that they used witchcraft to keep their political powers?

MS PATEL: Perhaps - well then I'm slightly confused, perhaps you can clarify this for me, would ritual murders be necessary for turning people into zombis?

MR MASHAMBA: No.

MS PATEL: Then I don't understand why Joseph would have gone to Mafune.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand Ms Patel, Mafune was an expert in various fields.

MS PATEL: Sorry, according to the applicant, his expertise was turning into zombis and that is why he killed.

CHAIRPERSON: In addition to being a witchdoctor and he was able to make this muti or whatever was necessary to maintain power of Joseph.

MS PATEL: I'm sorry then Honourable Chairperson, my understanding of the applicant's testimony when I asked him initially why was Mafune pointed out by Thomas Madaw and he said because Mafune was turning people into zombis and then I went on to question him about well, who?

CHAIRPERSON: He said that, it's just that a specific issue there was he was pointed out by someone who informed them that he made people into zombis but another source told him about witchcraft and he believed that.

MS PATEL: Alright, thank you Honourable Chairperson.  Then I have no further questions thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

ADV SIGODI: Do you remember the people who were with you when you went to kill France?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes I still remember them.

ADV SIGODI: Who were they, who were with you?

MR MASHAMBA: Eric Matosi, Frederick Matata and Thomas Madawe and the fourth one I think Richard Jawuke.

ADV SIGODI: Were they also charged in the criminal trial with you?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes they were also charged but differently.

ADV SIGODI: I mean for the same offence of killing France Khomogwe?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes that is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Were you found guilty do you know?

MR MASHAMBA: They were found guilty.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know if they've applied for amnesty?

MR MASHAMBA: No they did not apply.

ADV SIGODI: Are they still in prison?

MR MASHAMBA: They are out.

ADV SIGODI: How many years where you sentenced to?

MR MASHAMBA: I'm sentenced to 12 years of murder and one year of arson.

ADV SIGODI: And now this no go area in the village where the zombis are being kept, what is the name of that area?

MR MASHAMBA: Dindele.

ADV SIGODI: So if we wanted to go there and have an inspection in loco who would stop us there?

MR MASHAMBA: I'm told that something will come which you won't see disturbing you, preventing you from going there.

CHAIRPERSON: Who would say so?  Who said that you'd be prevented from going there?

MR MASHAMBA: It's what I grew up hearing people talking like that and I've never heard of any person who have reached that place.

CHAIRPERSON: So you can't tell us where it is, you can't give us a place or a road to go?

MR MASHAMBA: I can assure you the road to that place, that that place I can assure you or point that place, that that is the place.

CHAIRPERSON: You can take us there?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes I can.

CHAIRPERSON: You're not scared?

MR MASHAMBA: I think I will not reach that place.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you think it's time you start thinking about the existence of this place?  I mean accept you've believed it all the years but don't you think it's time you started thinking for yourself about it whether it really exists or not?

MR MASHAMBA: I believe they are there.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible) of what association or movement or party or what?

INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear that first statement, could you please repeat?

ADV DE JAGER: The soccer player, Mr Pula who disappeared, you told us that he was the secretary of some association.  What was the name of that association?

MR MASHAMBA: I didn't say he was the secretary of the organisation, he was the secretary of the meetings which we used to hold, he was the secretary who used to write the minutes.