Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-25

MR VISSER: Can you just tell us, Ms Miller, I am sure I know what you are going to say, but please just let's go through the exercise, did you consider 502 as a possible candidate?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Was 502 on my list?

MR VISSER: No.

STEPHANIE MILLER: I don't recall.

MR VISSER: No, it wasn't.

STEPHANIE MILLER: No, I didn't consider 502 as a candidate.

MR VISSER: Can you just look at it now and tell us why not?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Well, if you will note, the body was found in Newlands East.

MR VISSER: Yes, but that is the only difference, would you agree with me?

STEPHANIE MILLER: No, it is not the only difference in this particular case.  In this particular case, it was a skeletal, it was skeletal bones, not a decomposed body that was brought in.

MR VISSER: What is the difference?

STEPHANIE MILLER: There is a considerable difference between bringing in a skeleton and bringing a decomposed body into the mortuary, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed, this thing is like a weapon.  Before you proceed, where is Newlands East?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Newlands East is in exactly the opposite direction from where the family live, in relation to where the pointing out was done.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but is it in Durban or is it down the south coast?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Yes, it is to the north of the city, it is to the north of the city, it is northwest of the city.

MR VISSER: Not to be confused with Newtown, I take it?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Not to be confused with Newtown.

MR VISSER: Newtown being very close to Bambai?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Newtown is very close to Bambai.

MR VISSER: Yes.

STEPHANIE MILLER: In relationship to ...

MR LAX: The other main difference, I can just put on record, is that Newlands East is a so-called Coloured area and Newtown is an informal shack settlement area.

MR VISSER: Yes.  We appreciate the difference Chairperson.  Would the same exactly apply to 826?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Well, not exactly.    As you can see the person was found in Newlands East, and it was fairly decomposed, but no, Newlands East was the wrong area.

MR VISSER: Yes.  But that is the same as in 502, Ms Miller?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Yes.  It was out of the area.

MR VISSER: So in both of these instances, the individualising factor was that the body was apparently according to the entry found in Newlands East?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Correct.

MR VISSER: The rest of the information is almost a text book copy of PM580, would you agree with that?

STEPHANIE MILLER: No, I wouldn't say that.  I would say on 826 the woman was certainly by no stretch of the imagination, a short person.  You see the difference is that in 502 it is a skeleton that was brought in, and the issue I think that you would have to ask Dr Naidoo and not myself, is whether a body could have decomposed totally to a skeleton within a month.

MR VISSER: Yes, we will ask him.

STEPHANIE MILLER: Which is one of the reasons why I would not have considered that to have fallen within the criteria.

MR VISSER: Yes, but you explained to us that you regard a skeleton, skeletal remains as something different from a decomposed body?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Yes, yes, and in 826 the person was decomposed, but not a skeleton, and was apparently measured and weighed.  At 1,7, 61 kg is not, would be a very slim person?

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR LAX: Where are you picking up all these weights?

STEPHANIE MILLER: On number 826, the second page in the middle it says "decomposed, undetermined, Charlottedale", a date and then where it says "undetermined" it gives a weight and a height.

MR LAX: Yes, no, no, I just couldn't read it properly.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry ...

MR LAX: Mine is a bit indistinct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, these 502 and 826, does that come from the same register as the other one?  Is it the same, it is not from a different mortuary?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, no, no, there are three registers of Verulam which were apparently sent to Phoenix after Verulam closed, that is what Ms Miller said, and it comes from those.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the same registers?

MR VISSER: In any event, just the last question on this issue, once you have excluded them, I take it you did not apply to have the post-mortems on those two persons, or did you attempt to find out where they ...

STEPHANIE MILLER: No, that is not correct.  Their burial is stipulated here, it tells you exactly where they were buried.

MR VISSER: Yes, they were buried in paupers' graves in Charlottedale.

STEPHANIE MILLER: It was a contract that was held by the State and Thombart Hearse Services to dispose of bodies that were unidentified, in paupers' graves at Charlottedale, so all unidentified bodies at that mortuary, were given paupers' burials at Charlottedale, so it is not unusual that this would happen.

MR VISSER: Ms Miller, just listen to the question, really it is quite simple.  Did you try to establish in which grave any of these two people ...

STEPHANIE MILLER: No, I would not have tried to establish in which grave they were in.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  And you would not have asked to obtain the post-mortem reports?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Yes, I probably would have.  I don't recall specifically, but in an initial search, we would have drawn up a list.

MR VISSER: Yes.

STEPHANIE MILLER: I would have then asked Mr Kubheka to assist me, I did then ask Mr Kubheka, he looked through the books, he gave me his list, we did it for a third time, and each instance that I went, I called for post-mortem reports.  So there might have been something contained within those reports that made me discard that.

MR VISSER: Yes.

STEPHANIE MILLER: In the initial search.  But I don't recall specifically which ones I looked at the first time.

MR VISSER: Is this a correct summary of your evidence, that as far as your investigations go, what you are certain of, is that the body which was examined by Dr Chetty, was buried in grave 343, so far so good?

STEPHANIE MILLER: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you go further to say that the body that was exhumed, was the body on which the post-mortem examination by Dr Chetty was carried out, is that correct?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I am saying that the body that was exhumed from 343 in terms of the paper trail, is exactly that as Dr Chetty had done a post-mortem on that morning, and it is the same body that Dr Naidoo did a post-mortem on subsequently.

MR VISSER: That is the next point.  And you say that is the same body that Dr Naidoo did a post-mortem on and you say that is Ntombi Kubheka?

STEPHANIE MILLER: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser.   Mr Hugo, do you have any questions that you would like to put to Ms Miller?

MR HUGO: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel?

MR NEL: Mr Chairman, thank you, I have no questions, except for I would like to reserve the right to maybe ask one or two questions, if necessary, on the documentation which I believe is in the Evidence Leader's possession, about the Section 29 hearing, or whatever happened regarding Mr Taylor.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Taylor, yes.

MR NEL: Which we requested and ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, if there is anything, certainly you would be able to put questions relating to that.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL