Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-09

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, what did you refer to now, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: That Mr Wasserman asked him to do it.

MR VISSER: No, Mr Chairman.  Which paragraph are you now referring to, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Page 24, paragraph 9(a)(iv), isn't that the incident?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, the application of Rosslee is at page 24.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: And he says
"de Kock ordered the three of us, Frank McCarter, Steve Bosch and myself ..."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and the next paragraph
"We were met by Mr Wasserman of the local Security Branch who told us that two of the accused had been acquitted but were still continuing their subversive activities and that our task was to: 'arrest'."

MR VISSER: Yes, but the confusion is, Mr Chairman, the fact that we know that Bhila wasn't an accused in that trial.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but the fact I'm asking you now, you've been putting it to him that it was Mr Taylor who told them at CR Swart Square.

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: He is here saying isn't he, that Wasserman told them?

MR VISSER: Rosslee says that Wasserman said so, yes, but Taylor himself says that he told them.  Well, it's implicit ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But Rosslee will say that the order was given by Taylor at CR Swart Square?

MR VISSER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That does not accord with his application.

MR VISSER: That may be so, but that will be his evidence, Mr Chairman.  But thank you for pointing that out, yes.  That is indeed so, Mr Chairman, that is his recollection but he will give evidence and this can be put to Rosslee at the time.  I make no secret of the fact, Mr Chairman, that you will hear in this case, you will hear conflicting evidence about what finer detail did transpire and who were involved and who were present at various times.
	Mr McCarter, if I then may continue, this routine duty which you referred in Durban, seems to indicate that you came down to Durban from Vlakplaas fairly regularly or is that an incorrect inference to draw?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, that's correct, Mr Chairman, we came down on a regular basis.

MR VISSER: Why would that have been?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, at the time Durban was known in the Security Branch as "Bombay" and that wasn't because of all the Indians, it was because of the amount of bombs that had been going off in that period, and as a result of that myself and other members from Vlakplaas, which included the Askaris, the ex-ANC and PAC cadres, were in Durban to try and identify these possible bombers.

MR VISSER: Would it be correct or rather, would you think it's an overstatement to say that virtually all forms of the struggle of the past one could find occurring here in Durban during those years, 1987/1988?  One had unrest, one had bombs, one had DLBs being lifted, there was labour unrest etc., isn't that true?

FRANK MCCARTER: Durban was very active at that period.

MR VISSER: Very active.  The shooting range which you referred to, was that an old South African Railway pistol shooting range?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And I believe that on this range there was a brick building, a red brick building, is that correct?

FRANK MCCARTER: Correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And there may have been one or more car ports, would that be correct?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, I can't recollect.

MR VISSER: You can't remember that.  Now obviously the rest of the squad, if I may put it like that, must have been informed and instructed after your meeting with Colonel Taylor, would that be correct?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: For example Bosch?

FRANK MCCARTER: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Certainly Wasserman will tell the Committee that he was told about what was about to happen on the way to Winkelspruit when he stopped along the road having followed Colonel Andy Taylor in his motorcar, in Taylor's motorcar and Taylor there told him that Bhila was to be taken out.  So his instruction came later, and I take it that of Mr Bosch came much later, according to his statement.

FRANK MCCARTER: That's as far as I can recollect, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes, alright.  Now Wasserman tells me that ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Sorry, Mr Visser, can I just get that response or try to understand the answer of the applicant.
	You said that's as far as you understood it, meaning that the instructions came at specific times or what are you confirming?

FRANK MCCARTER: That the applicants, Wasserman and Bosch weren't present at the briefing by Colonel Andy Taylor.

MR MALAN: Now when did they receive their instructions or requests or whatever?

FRANK MCCARTER: Mr Chairman, I can't recall exactly but it was on the particular day that Bhila had already been picked up.

MR MALAN: But that's really my question, why do you confirm something that you have no knowledge of?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's how I understood but I can't recollect ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Did you give them instructions?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't Bosch under your command?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you tell him what he was supposed to be doing?

FRANK MCCARTER: I must have told him later when we had actually been, when we were actually at the shooting range, Mr Chairman.  I can't recollect the details but I won't argue with Mr Visser that Mr Bosch only received his instructions later.

MR MALAN: Well that's fine then, just keep your responses in that fashion, don't confirm something, simply say you can't deny it, please.

MR VISSER: Yes, as the Honourable Chairman pointed out, you would have been the one that would have filled Mr Bosch in, him being under your command and also from Vlakplaas, not so?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Must I repeat the question, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR VISSER: As the Chairman put to you, you would have been the one to inform Bosch, under normal circumstances, you being his senior officer and you both being from Vlakplaas?

FRANK MCCARTER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Now at this shooting range, I'm going to ask you first of all to try to identify who all were at the shooting range and secondly I'm going to ask you whether you can remember in what order people who arrived there, who were there, had arrived.  Now first of all, during the course of that day, who can you remember who were present at the pistol shooting range at Winkelspruit?  Yourself was there ...

FRANK MCCARTER: Myself, Steve Bosch, Adrian Rosslee, Lawrie Wasserman, Michael Lembede and Colonel Andy Taylor.

MR VISSER: Rosslee in his Section 204 affidavit indicated that he thought that a person by the name of Spyker was also present, can you recall today whether this person Spyker who was a member of the Security Branch Durban, whether he was present or can't you recall?

FRANK MCCARTER: No, I can't recall, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Now Wasserman tells me - I'm sorry, Mr Chairman, Mr Chairman, Spyker's surname is Mhieza, I'm not quite sure how you spell it, or however one spells it.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible).

ADV PRIOR: ...(inaudible)

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, to my learned friend, Mr Prior.
	Mr Wasserman informs me and he will give that evidence, that he himself and Colonel Taylor arrived at a time after you - well, they arrived at the pistol shooting range finding you and Bosch and Rosslee already there, would that be in accordance with your recollection?

FRANK MCCARTER: I can't deny that, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes, alright.  Now whether Spyker may or may not have been present at the shooting range, may I ask you - well, the answer is I suppose self evident but can you remember how many black members were present at the time when Mr Bhila was shot on the edge of the cliff?

FRANK MCCARTER: Only Michael Lembede.