Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-11

MS THABETHE: So weren't you concerned at that stage that Mr Sikhakane's cover would be blown anyway?

J A VORSTER: Mr Sikhakane was not trained in the methodology of recruitment of informers and I wanted to inform myself that Mr Cele was willing to co-operate.

MS THABETHE: I don't whether it's you or it's Mr Botha's evidence where it became clear that Mr Sikhakane remained in Swaziland.

J A VORSTER: That is correct, after the operation.

CHAIRPERSON: They both said so.

MS THABETHE: Both said so, okay.
	Why did he remain in Swaziland, wasn't it dangerous for him to remain in Swaziland?

J A VORSTER: So that he could continue serving as an informer.  There was certainly an element of risk or danger for him, but we would only be able to determine the gravity of that after we had obtained Cele's willingness to co-operate with us or not.

MS THABETHE: When you took Mr Cele to Amsterdam for questioning and when you realised that he was not willing to co-operate with you, did you inform Mr Sikhakane or did you enquire from Mr Sikhakane why he had initially said that he was willing to co-operate?

J A VORSTER: Mr Sikhakane was always under the impression that Mr Cele had been recruited as an informer and was working for us as an informer.  He was not notified.

MS THABETHE: So are you saying that he didn't even know that he was eventually killed?

J A VORSTER: No, Chairperson, not according to my knowledge.

MS THABETHE: Amongst your team, who was the person who had the highest rank?

J A VORSTER: Col Taylor.

MS THABETHE: And then he was taken to the farm and questioned there, is that correct?

J A VORSTER: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETHE: At what stage did you decide that you were not going to question him anymore, you were going to kill him?

J A VORSTER: We attempted continuously.  Even while Wasserman and I were digging the grave, Col Taylor still attempted to obtain his co-operation.

MS THABETHE: No, what I'm trying to find out is, before you actually dug the grave - because I would assume that you dug the grave in anticipation of putting him in that grave, isn't it so?

J A VORSTER: Yes.

MS THABETHE: What I'm asking, when did you initially decide that look, we will have to kill him?

J A VORSTER: It was late afternoon, it was almost dark, dusk when we arrived at the farm.

MS THABETHE: Did you inform Mr Cele that if he refused to co-operate you're actually going to kill him?

J A VORSTER: No, Chairperson.

MS THABETHE: Why didn't you do so, in an attempt to show him what the consequences were if he refused to co-operate with you?

J A VORSTER: No, we were not prepared to inform him.  It also wasn't very pleasant to tell somebody "Look, I'm going to kill you".  This just wasn't something that was done.

CHAIRPERSON: He wouldn't be very valuable if he agreed to do it for you just because he was going to try and avoid being killed.

J A VORSTER: That would be the other reason, Chairperson.

MS THABETHE: Didn't you maybe think that if you told him that look, if you refuse to work for us we're going to kill you, didn't you think maybe he might have changed his mind and worked for you?

J A VORSTER: I did not discuss it with him in that way.

MS THABETHE: Was he tied when you took him to the grave, before he was killed?  Mr Cele.

J A VORSTER: His hands were bound behind his back with handcuffs as far as I can recall.  Was he tyre'd or tied?

MS THABETHE: Tied, ja.  Why did you tie him?

J A VORSTER: We told him that we were going to take him to another place.  And because he was not willing to co-operate, it would have been the logical thing to cuff him so that he could not escape.

MS THABETHE: You've also indicated that you had options of for example, arresting Mr Cele, but you did not have enough evidence.

J A VORSTER: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: The question I want to ask you in connection with that is, why didn't you frame him in order to arrest him?

J A VORSTER: Chairperson, Mr Cele had been abducted from Swaziland and brought into the RSA unlawfully, so this would have been an embarrassment to the State and the government in the first place.  Therefore, that option was not viable.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair. Can you give me - can I please ask for a second, just to ensure that I've covered all the aspects.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly

MS THABETHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair.  Mr Chair, just one question that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please carry on.

MS THABETHE: Ja.  ... that the client has indicated me to ask you.  Would you know where Mr Sikhakane is right now?  Is he still alive?

J A VORSTER: He's not alive.

MS THABETHE: Okay.  Thank you, Mr Chair, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.
	When the body was exhumed it was found not to have any cloth or anything attached to it, which means it was in all likelihood naked at the time it was buried.  Your recollection is though that the person, the deceased was wearing a pair of underpants.

J A VORSTER: That is correct, Chairperson, and I must add that it was pitch dark.  There was no lights, it was a farm.  We worked in candle light, so the possibility of him being completely naked is something that I cannot dispute.

MR LAX: Ja, that was going to be my question, you might just be mistaken in that ...

J A VORSTER: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And I would assume the same might apply for the "doppies", the shells.

J A VORSTER: Yes, Chairperson.

MS THABETHE: Because no shells were found in any of those graves.

J A VORSTER: I am not aware of that.  As far as I can recall it appeared to me that the shells had fallen into the grave when the shots were fired, but it was dark so I cannot dispute this.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Vorster, the previous applicant, Mr Both, gave evidence to a question that he had drawn the inference that Cele didn't want to co-operate because his body language indicated this because he appeared to be hesitant.  How do you reconcile this with your evidence?  You say that Cele indicated his non-willingness with words.  I don't understand that apparent contradiction.

J A VORSTER: In my presence he revealed it to me in other words that he was not willing to co-operate.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you recall whether this was the case while Mr Botha was present?  Because apparently there were two occasions upon which he was interrogated.  Can you just clear this up for us?

J A VORSTER: I cannot recall whether Mr Botha was present when Cele made this known to me.

ADV BOSMAN: And with the initial interrogation, when he was brought over the border, can you recall whether by means of express words, he immediately refused to co-operate or whether initially through his body language and his presence, he indicated that he did not want to work with you?

J A VORSTER: Let me try and put this into perspective.  The interrogation at Amsterdam was about information over which Cele knew and we wanted to determine whether Cele in fact knew about this information.  The second phase was about the recruitment and the implications of recruitment as an informer.  I handled the second phase mostly because Sikhakane was my informer and because I wanted to apply Cele as an informer for them.

ADV BOSMAN: Was Botha present during the second phase?

J A VORSTER: Not as far as I can recall, because I knew that he wasn't at all present when Cele was killed, and he had departed earlier that afternoon already.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any re-examination, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: No, thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Thank you, you are excused.

J A VORSTER: Thank you, Chair.
WITNESS EXCUSED