Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-20

MR COOK: You've said that the comrades who are here today also formed part of that cell, isn't it so that some of them pointed out certain weapons?

NICLO PEDRO: You've asked me whether weapons were brought in, I don't know how those things were brought in and how they came to be here.

MR COOK: Did your cell possess weapons?

NICLO PEDRO: Yes.

MR COOK: Who had these weapons?

NICLO PEDRO: I don't know why I have to answer all these questions again, I came here to testify ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please just understand Mr Cook, you asked him whether the cell possessed weapons and he said yes, what is the purpose of trying to get the identity of which individuals?  What purpose does that serve?

MR COOK: It's very easy, the allegations have been made by each person who cross-examined my client, allegations that they denied that certain weapons were pointed out - especially Mr Yengeni.  One of the members of the bench asked him a question and it was said that he refuses to answer the questions because he's not under oath.
	I would like to ascertain when my client says he tortured these people to extract information from them to prevent bombs and weapons or bombs exploding in the Western Cape.  I'm trying to find out from Mr Pedro whether they indeed had those weapons and what they wanted to do with those weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: Well the answer is that his cell did have weapons.

MR COOK: Right.
	Mr Pedro, the next question is, what did you want to do with these weapons?

NICLO PEDRO: I want to put it to you again, the reason why I'm here is because I read in the newspaper denies certain things - certain things which he did to me, and I felt that his application for amnesty should be counted in some way and that I should come in and tell the truth.  And I don't understand the relevance of these questions regarding the cell.

MR COOK: So are you refusing to answer the question?

NICLO PEDRO: I don't see the relevance of it.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you need the weapons to make war?

NICLO PEDRO: I wouldn't put it like that, not to make war.  That definition of making war, I don't know - the weapons were here for a specific purpose.

ADV DE JAGER: What specific purpose?

NICLO PEDRO: At that stage we had certain targets, there were electrical power stations - that was a target, Government buildings, policemen ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: I don't think you need to answer the question if you don't want to but the purpose was to overthrow the Government?

NICLO PEDRO: Yes, that was the purpose.

MR COOK: Thank you Advocate de Jager.
	You knew Mr Ashley Kriel well, is that correct?

NICLO PEDRO: He was my friend, yes.

MR COOK: And at some point you lived together?

NICLO PEDRO: Correct.

MR COOK: The place where he was killed, 8 Albermaal Street in Hazendal, Athlone, is that where you lived together?

NICLO PEDRO: Correct.

MR COOK: Is it correct that Mr Ashley Kriel had a hand grenade in his possession amongst others - in the period that you lived together?

NICLO PEDRO: It's possible, I didn't see it.

MR COOK: You didn't see it?

NICLO PEDRO: No.  He didn't tell me what he possessed or what he was walking around with.

MR COOK: Did you have a .22 pistol in your possession at that stage?

NICLO PEDRO: Yes.

MR COOK: Where did you get it?

NICLO PEDRO: From one of my co-accused.

MR COOK: Who?

NICLO PEDRO: Naziem Louw.

MR COOK: What did you want to do with the weapons?

NICLO PEDRO: To protect ourselves from the police.

MR COOK: Why did you decide to leave the country early in August of  '87?

NICLO PEDRO: The police were searching for me.

MR COOK: Why?

NICLO PEDRO: There was a poster of me in the Mitchell's Plein police station, apparently they were looking for me for car theft.

MR COOK: Was it armed robbery?

NICLO PEDRO: No, it was car theft.

MR COOK: Isn't it true that at that stage they were also aware of you and were looking for you in connection with the activities of the cell?

NICLO PEDRO: I don't know.

MR DONAN: At this stage, what relevance that has to the torture that was used?

MR COOK: I'll get to that but I don't want to jump the gun.

CHAIRPERSON: I wish you would get to it because I mean, we're not in a trial as you understand, this is not a trial and he's not applying for amnesty.

MR COOK: Yes, indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: If you're going to attack his credibility then you've got to put to him that you don't believe his evidence on this point or the other point.

MR COOK: I'm getting there, please just give me a moment.
	Is it correct that Ashley Kriel at some stage was your cell leader?

NICLO PEDRO: Pardon me?

MR COOK: Ashley Kriel, was he the cell leader at some stage?

NICLO PEDRO: I don't know if I can say he was the cell leader, I came into contact with him after Ashley Forbes had been arrested.

MR COOK: You made a statement which was handed in during the inquest proceedings, is that correct?

NICLO PEDRO: Yes.

MR COOK: I'm going to give you the statement and I just want to confirm that it is your signature.
	It's part of the inquest proceedings documents which I handed in, it is Exhibit C in that volume.
	I'm just going to show it to you, please look at the bottom of the page.  Is that your signature?

ADV DE JAGER: Have the pages of the inquest proceedings been indexed and if so, to which page are you referring?

MR COOK: Unfortunately I don't have the original with me but I will ask that a photostat copy be made of Exhibit C, I'm only going to refer to one or two portions.

MR COOK: I asked you just now whether you know whether Ashley Kriel had a defensive hand grenade and you said you couldn't remember.  I'm going to read to you paragraph 14 of Exhibit C
"When I met the deceased in Lansdowne on that day he was in possession of an F1 defensive hand grenade in his jacket pocket.  I received training in dealing with various land mines and grenades and I identified the grenade as such".
Paragraph 15:
"The deceased and I often left the house in Hazendal and he was always or often armed with this hand grenade"
Can you recall that?

NICLO PEDRO: Yes.   I want to correct you, I said it's possible, he did not always tell me what he had in his possession - that was my answer.

MR COOK: Yes, I very pertinently asked you about this defensive hand grenade, whether he carried it with him.
	I will request copies to be made of this Exhibit C.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, if it is admitted by him that is what is said, then I don't think it's necessary for you to put it in.

MR COOK: As it pleases you.
	Let's go back to your evidence.  When you arrived at Culemborg, who were there when you arrived there?  Who did you see there first?

NICLO PEDRO: There were different people there, I didn't know all their names at that stage.  As I said, I afterwards learnt that Benzien and Nortje were amongst them.

MR COOK: But it wasn't only the two of them, according to you there were lots of people?

NICLO PEDRO: Yes, there were other people as well.

MR COOK: Were these other people there right from the start when you arrived there?  In other words, was there a whole group of people there from the start?

NICLO PEDRO: Culemborg is a big building ...[intervention]

MR COOK: Please answer the question.

NICLO PEDRO: Yes.  It's a big building, I don't know where these people all came from, I don't know whether they were there or whether they weren't - I couldn't say that exactly.

MR COOK: I would like point out to the Committee page 246 of the typed document or the record of the previous proceedings, lines one to four.  There's a statement by Advocate Donan - it was read into the record, where he says
"He was brought to Culemborg and he says that there the first security policeman that arrived there was Warrant Officer Benzien and Warrant Officer Nortje - when he arrived it was you and Nortje"
And that contradicts your evidence now.

NICLO PEDRO: No, not at all.