Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: I am indebted to you Mr Currin, thank you,thank you very much.   Mr Mpshe before we adjourn is there anythingyou wish to say about what you propose doing?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Thank you Mr Chairman.   Yes Mr Chairman, dependingon whether the Committee would like to sit the full-blast likeevery ordinary day tomorrow, on a Friday Mr Chairman, if the Committeeis intending to sit like on all the other days then we will continuewith this matter, finalise it tomorrow morning and start withthe Kwandabele 9 and if possible, include the killing of Sibia.

CHAIRPERSON: Some members of the Committee have planes tocatch in the afternoon and I think that we must work on the basisof a normal morning's hearing until about lunch time.  If, withthe co-operation of your colleagues, it is possible to see whetherwe can tackle a matter which is capable of being completed inthat time it would be desirable.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman that will be done then, it willbe this matter finalised tomorrow then we will get on to Sibia,it can be finalised tomorrow by 1 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps tomorrow morning before we begin youwill give us a full report of just exactly what steps have beentaken to inform people who are affected by the evidence that hasbeen given and maybe if this matter has to be adjourned, to ensurethat before it resumes on another
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occasion they are all informed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : That will be done tomorrow morning Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Currin what are the chances of you gettingbirth certificates in respect of these young people?

MR CURRIN: : We already have collected quite a number,we are in the process straight after this to make photocopiesand we are arranging to get what we can tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much that will be very helpful.

JUDGE WILSON: : Speaking for myself Mr Currin, I can appreciatethat it may well be difficult to get birth certificates of peoplewho were born a long time ago, but I think we would also appreciateif there is any other documentary evidence, school reports oranything of that nature, I think Mr Du Plessis would accept that.  It doesn't have to be formal documents.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS - END OF DAY 7
ON RESUMPTION

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Chairman we didnot finalise the Nietverdiend matter, it is a continuation thereofthis morning and my colleague Mr Brian Currin is...as I have indicatedwe have not finalised and the next applicant is to testify onthe Nietverdiend matter.   Captain Hechter I am told.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman, perhaps before he proceeds,we have compiled lists of victims and South African police membersas well as other persons referred to in the applications.   Theonly application I was not able to do that is that of CaptainHechter because of the fact that the information that was storedon a stiffie, got damaged, so that information is gone.   In respectof all four the other applicants we've compiled a list of allthe names mentioned
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in respect of the four applications.   I do not think, however,Mr Chairman but I haven't checked it, that there will be othernames mentioned in Captain Hechter's application that were notmentioned in the other applications as all the matters where nameswere mentioned in Captain Hechter's application were dealt withby other witnesses as well.   In all probability those will beall the names.

CHAIRPERSON: This is one of the Exhibits, it is incompleteat present as it stands?

MR DU PLESSIS: : Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a likelihood of it being completed?

MR DU PLESSIS: : Yes I will endeavour, you will see thesecond paragraph in the letter says that we will endeavour assoon as possible to complete that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
JACQUES HECHTER (ss)
EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Captain Hechter yesterdayyou heard the testimony of Brigadier Cronje regarding this matter.  Mr Chairman, Captain's Hechter application you will find thaton page 36.    Mr Chairman I again just want to refer you to thefact that it should be "murder" and not "attemptedmurder" on page 36.   Captain Hechter, is there any aspectin Brigadier Cronje's testimony that you disagree with?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: Captain Hechter, there are however a coupleof aspects which you can elaborate on.   Let's start with thefirst aspect, that is the actions of Joe Mamasela and what hewould have said to these activists and your view of Joe
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Mamasela.   Could you please elaborate on that?

ANSWER: Mr Chair, what Joe told these children I wouldof course not be able to repeat to you, but as I had already gottento know Joe Mamasela in 1986 he was a very intelligent and pleasantperson, a person for whom at that time I had tremendous respect.  He was an excellent operative and in my view his loyalty wascomplete.   There was no doubt with regard to his loyalty, hespoke of the white and the black "boers" and consideredhimself as a black boer who entirely identified with that sideof the struggle.   He never received any money for any of hisactions, he did however attempt to borrow money from me, but Idenied that because we did not work for money we were involvedin a struggle and I told him that if that was his view, he wouldhave to go.   As I have said, Mamasela is a highly intelligentand extremely well trained operative.   He is an operative bynature.

<UNKNOWN>: Captain would there, at that time, have beenany reason to doubt that which Mamasela told Brigadier Cronjewith regard to his actions towards the activists?

ANSWER: Not at all, Joe came across as an entirely honestperson at that time, honest of course in our sense or towardsus, he did his work without any oversight and the previous commandingofficers who were in charge of him, I believe in the West Rand,thought so much of him that at that time they purchased a vehiclefor him from the secret State fund.   He obtained petrol witha private card and he had complete access to the vehicle for hisprivate use.   Joe never, as far as we have been able to determine,abused this privilege.

JUDGE WILSON: : He wasn't working for money but he gota
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free vehicle and a card for petrol, over and above his salary,is that the position?

ANSWER: That is positively the case, we all worked underthis arrangement.   We would have a State vehicle, a normal salaryand in addition a vehicle with which to operate which would thenhave been registered in his name so that it would not be possibleto trace the vehicle by means of the registration number to hisplace of employment.
MR DU PLESSIS (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Could I then ask you Captain, with regard tothe age of the activists, are you able to remember, you know thatMr Cronje has given testimony that persons of 18 years old didserve in the SADF and the SAP, would it have been possible thatwhite children at that time would have been able to serve at ayounger age?

ANSWER: I do believe that Brigadier Cronje has made amistake, there were persons from the age of 16 who were takenup, for instance as military servicemen in the SADF, that is ofthe age of 16.

<UNKNOWN>: These would then have been persons who leftschool at about Std 8?

ANSWER: That is the case.

MR CURRIN: : May I just help my learned friend and puton record that we're not intending to dispute that children areand have been involved in war situations.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Yes Mr Chairman I realise that, I realiseMr Currin's position but I do have an obligation to place certainfacts before the Committee on which I will argue at a later stagein respect of the importance of this issue.   So it does not necessarilyconfront specifically just Mr Currin but it deals with the wholesituation.
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MR DU PLESSIS (contd)