Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-06

MR STRYDOM: Mr Chairperson, as previously indicated Mr Khubeka independently applied for amnesty and I can refer you, Mr Chairperson, to a statement concerning gross violations of human rights with the official reference number and in this statement I found the following and this I can also say this statement was made on the 10th May 1997, but I found the following statement here:  "I have also applied for amnesty to the TRC but I am not sure if that form is well filled because I was helped by someone for I can't relate and express myself well in English."  Now I have taken this up with Mr Wessel Janse van Rensburg and he undertook to clarify the situation and see if he can find that application.  I can also mention that initially when applications were made by the attorney on behalf of all the people that were convicted during the criminal trial, his name was included in that initial application that was made on the 10th May 1997, that was faxed through to the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, do you have anything to say to that Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: No, just to confirm what Mr Strydom has said.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well, the difficulty that we have here is that we did not have his application before us and until his application is properly placed before us, we are unable to consider his application.  Perhaps at an appropriate time, would you endeavour to locate whatever application he may have made and place that before us.  Would you do that Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: That would be done, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for the record, what is the name of this individual?

MR STRYDOM: I'm going to spell his first name : S-i-t-h-e-m-b-i-s-o his second name is Mountgenery : M-o-u-n-t-g-e-n-e-r-y Kubheka : K-u-b-h-e-k-a.

CHAIRPERSON: For the purposes of this Committee, the application by Mr Kubheka is therefore not before us until such time that it is properly brought before us.  I suppose you'll endeavour to ensure that you locate the application and perhaps put that before the Committee.

MR STRYDOM: That would be done, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, also if my learned friends could provide us with copies of that application.
	Mr Mthembu can you hear me?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: ...[inaudible]

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, could you clarify for us please precisely which acts you seek amnesty for?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: ...[inaudible, no interpretation]

MR BERGER: I want to know from you if you seek amnesty for, let me start, killing any people?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: ...[inaudible, no interpretation]

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, if I could just ask the interpreter to speak up, I'm having difficulty hearing.
	Mr Mthembu, what I'm asking you is how many people did you kill in Boipatong on the 17th June 1992?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, I may not know how many people I killed on that day because it was a night time I would not be sure how many died or how many I killed personally.

MR BERGER: You say because it was at night you're not sure how many people you killed?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that's what I'm saying.

MR BERGER: It was a clear night, was it not?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: It was like any other night as far as I could tell

MR BERGER: There was a full moon, there was no smoke around, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As far as I know there was some smoke because in the township some of the people used coal stoves.

MR BERGER: There was an Apollo light which cast a substantial amount of light over the houses, is that not correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, there were Apollo lights in the township.

MR BERGER: And you had to be able to distinguish between attackers and victims so that you kill some of your own attackers, isn't that right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: So I'm putting to you that it was perfectly easy for you to see the people that you killed.  Do you dispute that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: What I may explain, I know which type of weapon I had but as you asked how many people I killed, I may not be able to specify because it could be that I killed some people or I did not kill them, they may have got injured or killed, I may not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you should tell us how you were armed?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I had a spear.

MR BERGER: How big was the spear?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I don't know how I can estimate this

MR BERGER: Could indicate with your hands how long the blade was?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I think it was that long.

MR BERGER: The entire spear?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Well the tip was about that length and the entire length that big and then I had a knobkierrie as well.

MR BERGER: For record, Chairperson, it would appear as though the spear was about two metres long and the tip or the sharp portion of the spear about 30 centimetres.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you accept that Advocate Pretorius?

MS PRETORIUS: To me it does not look like two metres, I think it's about a metre and 50 centimetres but it's neither here nor there, Mr Chairperson.  He admits he had a spear and he had a knobkierrie.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's not the issue, the issue what I'm asking you is do you accept the estimation.  Mr Mthembu, would you please indicate that again?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: How long was the tip?  About that size and then the stick was about that long.

CHAIRPERSON: About 30 centimetres, the blade?

MS PRETORIUS: With that I will agree, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And perhaps the stick properly about a metre and a half?

MS PRETORIUS: That's correct.

MR BERGER: In addition to the spear, Mr Mthembu, you say you had a knobkierrie with you.  Did you have no guns, no other weapons with you?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I had no other weapons except for these that I've mentioned.

MR BERGER: Alright now, I'm going to attempt to count up the number of people that you could have killed.  So let's start with the very first house that you went into and tell us how many people were in that house and how many people you stabbed?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: What I can say when I actually entered the house, I found some of my colleagues inside the house.  There were two female children who looked like twins.  From there I thought that these were small children and as such did not know anything, were innocent.

MR BERGER: These two small children, small little girls, did you stab either of them?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, I did not stab them, instead I had a thought as a parent that I thought of hiding them in the wardrobe in the bedroom but then I thought if I locked them in the wardrobe, it will be difficult for them to be found, discovered and then I hid them under the bed and made sure that colleagues were leaving the house and I will be the last to leave so that these children would be safe.

MR BERGER: Well then if I understand you correctly, you saw these two little girls, you thought they're innocent, they don't deserve to be killed and you ensured that they were not killed, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: That was the first house you went into?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is the one I went into.

MR BERGER: Were there no other people in the house?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, I did not see any other people in the house except for these two children.

MR BERGER: So nobody was killed in that house?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As far as I know I thought that maybe the adults had already fled the house and these two children had been left behind.

MR BERGER: There was nobody in that house that you saw who had been attacked in any way?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, I did not see anyone.

MR BERGER: Let's move to the next house, the second house that you entered.  Did you stab anyone in that house?