Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-07

MS GOSO: If I may explain, or if I may ask the question again.  What did you think was to be achieved through carrying out this order?

MANDLA MADUNA: As a member of the Task Force, my duty was to protect the members of the PAC, so if the instruction is to attack the gangsters who were giving problems to the PAC, that actually to be was obvious, it was because we were to protect the members of the PAC. I am not sure if you are satisfied with my answer.

MS GOSO: I think you have answered the question, but I will proceed to ask you another question.  Why weren't the people who were attacking the members of the organisation, reported to the police?

MANDLA MADUNA: That was not my duty.

ADV SANDI: Were you aware Mr Maduna, whether such people, the gangster group you have talked about, whether they were reported at the police station?

MANDLA MADUNA: I don't have any idea whether they were reported to the police station, but I was told that the gangsters were attacking the PAC members.

MS GOSO: Do you know whose house it was, do you now know whose house it was that was attacked in which the people were who were attacked that day?

MANDLA MADUNA: I didn't know the owner of the house or the people who were in the house at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was did you now know whose house it was?

MANDLA MADUNA: No, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MS GOSO: Okay.  Where is Sipiwe Mqweso now, do you know?

MANDLA MADUNA: I heard that he passed away.

MS GOSO: That is the end of my leading examination.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS GOSO

CHAIRPERSON: Just tell us more about the people that you were with on that day.  You have given us the name Shaun Wella, Kamagen and Tinage.  Did you know Shaun?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes, I knew him as Shaun.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you known him before this incident?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What were his other names?

MANDLA MADUNA: I know him as Shaun.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did he live?

MANDLA MADUNA: I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did he work?

MANDLA MADUNA: I do not know, I only know that he was an APLA member.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know Wella?

MANDLA MADUNA: No.   I only knew him as a member.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long had you known him before this day?

MANDLA MADUNA: It was approximately four months, about four months.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know where he lived and what work he did?

MANDLA MADUNA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: This man Kamagen, what are his names?

MANDLA MADUNA: I know him as Kamagen.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long before this day, did you know him?

MANDLA MADUNA: I had known him for a long time.

CHAIRPERSON: And you didn't know him by any other name?

MANDLA MADUNA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did he live?

MANDLA MADUNA: He told me that he was residing at Khayelitsha.

CHAIRPERSON: What was his address in Khayelitsha?

MANDLA MADUNA: I do not know his address.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did he work?

MANDLA MADUNA: He was working at a taxi rank.

CHAIRPERSON: What work was he doing at the taxi rank?

MANDLA MADUNA: I used to see him driving.

CHAIRPERSON: Tinage, what were his names?

MANDLA MADUNA: I do not know.  I know him as Tinage.

CHAIRPERSON: How long before this day, did you know him?

MANDLA MADUNA: I saw him there for the very first time.

CHAIRPERSON: So you won't know where he worked, and you won't know where he lived?

MANDLA MADUNA: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: How long had you know Mr Mqweso?

MANDLA MADUNA: About six months.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did he live?

MANDLA MADUNA: He said he was residing at Khayelitsha.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know his address?

MANDLA MADUNA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a married man?

MANDLA MADUNA: No, I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: What work did he do?

MANDLA MADUNA: Are you referring to Sipiwe Mqweso?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MANDLA MADUNA: I only knew him as a Regional Commander, nothing else.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you that he was Regional Commander?

MANDLA MADUNA: He told me so.

CHAIRPERSON: When did he die?

MANDLA MADUNA: Just before the elections.

CHAIRPERSON: What year?

MANDLA MADUNA: In 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you that he had died?

MANDLA MADUNA: I heard from the other members of the party.

CHAIRPERSON: From who?

MANDLA MADUNA: It was Michael Siolo.

CHAIRPERSON: What was Michael's full name, Michael what?

MANDLA MADUNA: Michael Siolo.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you in prison at the time?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And did Michael Siolo tell you this while you were in prison?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Michael Siolo himself serving a term of imprisonment?

MANDLA MADUNA: No, he was just a visitor.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, any questions you wish to put to the applicant?

MR FORTUIN: Mr Maduna, how long did you live in Crossroads before the incident?

MANDLA MADUNA: I am not residing at Crossroads.

MR FORTUIN: My question is how long did you reside in Crossroads before the incident in March 1993?

MANDLA MADUNA: You mean the time I spent staying in Crossroads, what is it actually that you want to know?

CHAIRPERSON: How long did you live in Crossroads before you went to prison?

MANDLA MADUNA: I never stayed at Crossroads.

MR FORTUIN: I see.  I believe then you lived in Nyanga, according to your affidavit.  Is that correct?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: While staying at Nyanga and joining the PAC organisation, did you know about the conflict in Crossroads at that point in time?

MANDLA MADUNA: Will you please repeat your question?

MR FORTUIN: Were you aware before the incident in March, or before March, of the conflict in Crossroads?  The fighting that went on in Crossroads?

MANDLA MADUNA: I can't hear clearly with my headphones.  Will  you please repeat your question Sir?

MR FORTUIN: Before the incident in March, were you aware of the conflict or the battles that was going on in Crossroads at that point in time?

MANDLA MADUNA: Do you mean before I joined the PAC?

CHAIRPERSON: Before you went to prison?

MANDLA MADUNA: Can I get a new headphone?  This one seems to give me problems. I can hear clearly now.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Maduna, before you went to prison, before March or during March 1993, were you aware of the conflict that was going on or was raging and the battles that were raging in Crossroads?

MANDLA MADUNA: What type of conflict or battles are you talking about?

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just be clear.  You see, he was living in Nyanga and not in Crossroads.  The question is, were you aware of any conflicts in Crossroads before you went to prison?

MANDLA MADUNA: What I was told as a member of the Task Force was that the PAC members were being attacked at Crossroads.  They were being attacked by the members of the gangsters.

MR FORTUIN: I see.  Have you ever heard of somebody called Jeffery Nongwe that lived in Crossroads before you went to prison?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you spell that name for us please?  His surname?

MR FORTUIN: It is Nongwe.

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes, I used to hear people talking about Nongwe.

MR FORTUIN: Were you aware that he was a leader of one section of the community of Crossroads?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes.  I heard that he was a leader, but I didn't know anything about his constituency.

MR FORTUIN: I see.  Were you aware that he was a member of the ANC and was later expelled by the ANC?

MANDLA MADUNA: No, I don't know that.

MR FORTUIN: Are you telling the Commission that you were not aware that there was conflict in Crossroads and the conflict was between the ANC and the squatter leaders in Crossroads by the name of Jeffery Nongwe?

MANDLA MADUNA: What is important to me, what was important to me as a member of the Task Force was to listen to what I was being told.

CHAIRPERSON: No, just answer the question.  It is not what your orders were or your instructions were.  You see you are asked did you know that there was conflict between these groups that has been mentioned, between the ANC and the squatters?  If you did not know, just say so.