Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-03-26

CHAIRPERSON: And did this happen?  Had these people been told that the armed struggle was over?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I think they were told, but because of their anger they took time to respond to the instruction because of their anger.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but your answer, Mr Tjabane, is simply telling us what you think.  Do you know if as a matter of fact that these people were told that the armed struggle had been suspended?

XHOLILE TJABANE: If you instruct the camp you tell the forces what to do and it ends there and you will even get that from other structures, that a meeting was held and the forces were told that the armed struggle is ceased.  It just ends there.  It cannot happen otherwise.  You normally hear that the forces are told.  I cannot answer as to certainty about that.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you'd just told me that your intelligence people reported back to you that there had been meetings and that people had been told, meeting in the camps and people had been told.

XHOLILE TJABANE: I wonder what response are you looking for because I am telling you that things were done and people wouldn't do otherwise, they would do what was discussed.  Because what is important is that if you had that type of a meeting people will normally come to you, people close to you, people like the intelligence, they would come and tell you that things happened as you had instructed them as a leader.  They will further tell you that the forces had got the message.  I don't know how can I put this because I've been trying to explain it.

CHAIRPERSON: Well is that what happened, did they tell you that the forces had got the instruction?

XHOLILE TJABANE: By whom?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Your intelligence or someone else.  You have just given us a long answer about how people would come and tell you that there had been a meeting and they'd got instructions.  I'm asking you did this happen in this case, were you told that the forces had been told the armed struggle was over?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I've repeated that so many times.

MR LAX: Let me explain something to you.  The way you answer gives us the impression that you're talking in a vague general way, you're saying it should have happened like that.  Now it just might be the turn of phrase that you're using.  We're asking you questions that require a simple yes or a no, and you're giving us a long story and that is confusing everybody.  So what the judge is asking you is this, he's saying; did you in fact receive a report, not yes, you should have received a report, did you actually receive a report, yes or no?  It's quite plain and simple.  If you didn't then you didn't, if you did, you did.

XHOLILE TJABANE: I am saying, after the meeting was held my intelligence came and informed me that there was a meeting, people were told that I had said that the armed struggle should be ceased.  I did get the report because the intelligence came to me to inform me about the meeting.

MR LAX: Okay, now the next important issue is;  that report you received, did it relate to the unit that these two applicants would have been part of, or the camp where they would have been based that their unit would have been part of?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Fortunately everyone was there in the camp on that particular day and even these twosome.  In fact one of them was there, but Zukile Mbambo was not present.  Dumisane Ncamazana was present.

MR LAX: Thank you, please continue.

CHAIRPERSON: You see the problem I have with that answer is earlier in your evidence, as I recollect it and I made a note of it, you said
"Take it from me the structures failed to inform them"
Do you remember telling us earlier in your evidence that the command structures had failed to inform them and that's why the foot-soldiers continued?  That was what he said, wasn't it?

MR NTONGA: I don't have a note on it, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you've heard the evidence ...(indistinct).  He did say originally didn't he, that these people had not been told and that's why they continued to act?  And then he said ...(intervention)

XHOLILE TJABANE: I think I've repeated that more than once.  I've been repeating this.  After the President had issued the instruction, I told them that the armed struggle was ceased.  I don't know where that is coming from, what you are saying, but what is important is that I told them that the armed, it was time to cease the armed struggle, it was time to prepare for the elections.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on if you wish to.

MS COLLETT: Thank you.
	After you had apparently informed the units that the armed struggle had been suspended and your intelligence had given you the reports that everybody knew and that meetings had been held, did you convey that to the Chief of Operations, Mr Letklapa?

XHOLILE TJABANE: We had already met with him.  He phoned me in advance about the meeting and I told him that I heard that and I was going to tell the whole camp that the armed struggle was ceased.

MR LAX: Did you actually report to Letklapa that the information had been conveyed to the persons at the camps and the units?

XHOLILE TJABANE: As we were communicating I responded to what he was saying to me that the armed struggle was ceased, and I told him that I have already told the camp that the armed struggle was ceased.

MS COLLETT: So is your answer then that you informed Letklapa that all the camps and units in the Transkei knew about the fact that the armed struggle had been suspended?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I cannot say all the units because in my area and the camp that I was in is the one that I told. Transkei was so big I couldn't go to all of them.  There were other camp commanders or members of the High Command who were based on other stations.  I think they heard the message.

MS COLLETT: Do you not know where Letklapa got the information which he testified about at Court, that he knew that the unit involved in the Bahai Faith attack did not or had not received the information about the armed struggle being suspended?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I don't know where that came from because I was not present during the Court proceedings and I didn't meet with him.  I cannot respond for him.

ADV SANDI: I just want to know, what do you think of what Mr Letklapa said in Court, do you think he was making a mistake, he was lying to say that APLA forces had not been told that the armed struggle had been suspended?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I do not want to respond for him.

ADV SANDI: Are you saying that what he was saying was Court was not correct, it was not the correct position?

XHOLILE TJABANE: I do not want to respond for him.

CHAIRPERSON: You are not responding for him, you are responding for yourself.  If you know the unit had been informed that the struggle was over, then what he said in Court was not correct.  And as I understand your evidence you have told us that the, specifically, that Dumisane was in camp when the meeting was held and he was told that the armed struggle was over.  Do you remember telling us that?

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So it would have been incorrect to say that he did not know the armed struggle was over.

XHOLILE TJABANE: Yes, he was present at the time in the camp.

CHAIRPERSON: So it would be incorrect to say that he did not know that the armed struggle had ceased.  Is that the position?

XHOLILE TJABANE: You must know that we were oppressed for more than 300 years by the whites, it might happen that they were very angry and they decided to continue the armed struggle.  But I had given them the message that the armed struggle was ceased.  I respond for them, but I don't know what made them to continue.  I am just - I think that since they were oppressed for more that 300 years, they decided otherwise with their field commanders.