Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-08

MR VAN DER MERWE: I beg your pardon, Mr Commissioner, that was not the question either.

ADV POTGIETER: It doesn't matter, that's my question. (Laughter).

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you.  When you were arrested at first, Mr Jack, would I describe you correctly as saying you were very active and that you were prepared to stand your ground against the security police. Is that correct?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: I stood it all the way, Sir.

MR VAN DER MERWE: You were not a man who would budge for the security police because you had certain beliefs which you were prepared to go all the way for?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: I never gave, I stood my ground and I stayed too.

MR VAN DER MERWE: So under normal circumstances would you say the security police would have a change to negotiate anything with you?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Depending on what's the matter subject.

MR VAN DER MERWE: In other words, it depends on what the quid pro quo would be, what you would receive in turn?  Whether you would be able, be prepared to negotiate?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Look, I have always been open to negotiations, genuine negotiations on any matter, and I have, for that, let me just tell you.  Nieuwoudt will remind, can also bear this. I don't know whether you are aware that I was the first person to lead a delegation of extra-parliamentary comrades to meet with National Party people, in this country, and that you don't.  So I have always been open for negotiations. The idea of sitting down with the riot police, who were shooting our people, I was the first person to organise, but I never give in on the principles that we elevate in.  It was that or nothing.  But I have always been ready to negotiate with anybody. And I have said it from the first day.

CHAIRPERSON: Your question about negotiations, I think - I get the impression you are trying to be specific about it.  Was it that you really want him to admit, because he says he has always been in favour of negotiations, what is it that you want him to say?

MR VAN DER MERWE: I think what I will do is, I will leave it there at this stage, Mr Commissioner.  (Laughter). The problem we have, and I find it fairly hard to concentrate when everybody is laughing and making a mockery of this scene here.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes, please ... (intervention).

MR VAN DER MERWE: It is obvious that Mr Jack will not be agreeing ...

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold it.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I beg your pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ladies and gentlemen, I would like you to show respect to the people that are replying.  Their minds here are on important issues about whether amnesty must be granted or not. Please behave like responsible people, responsible elders and responsible leaders of your community.  Try and avoid interrupting here by applauding   and shouting.  We will appreciate it if you do that.  Our job is difficult enough as it is, and please, don't try and make it any more difficult than it is. I thank you for that. Try and give counsel a full chance to put forward the case on behalf of his client.  You may proceed now.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, Mr Commissioner, and I also thank the people. I think at this stage I will leave it there until a later stage and maybe come back to that.
	In all, Mr Jack, if I can sum up, you allege that you were assaulted by Mr Nieuwoudt on how many occasions?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: In all? Okay, let me just try to - I will tell you these things, okay. I was, I told you I was arrested in 1979 and during that occasion I was taken to Sanlam Building, where in the evening I was assaulted by Mr Nieuwoudt and the other people I mentioned.  In 1980 there was a student boycott which Mr Nieuwoudt has referred to. During that year, Mr Nieuwoudt himself at least caught me, I am not saying I was arrested by other people, at least three times, that year.

MR VAN DER MERWE: The term is assault.

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: No, no, listen.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Not arrest, assault.

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: I am coming to that.  And during that time I remember of no occasion where Nieuwoudt will not, either directly or indirectly, get involved in assaulting me, whenever I was arrested. It might not have been, it would never have been as harsh as it became as the years were going up, it became more harder, more stronger and so on, but from the beginning it wasn't that - I must confess that. It wasn't that heavy. Because anyway, in those days we believed that Nieuwoudt could do, they could do whatever they like with us, until the dreaded, hated Black Sash ladies came to influence us, that our human rights were being trembled.

CHAIRPERSON: When was the next, after 1980, when was the next time that he assaulted you?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: In 1980 actually, most of 1980 I spent in detention in and out. The other one was in 1981, and during the anti-Republic celebrations, I was taken from my home and taken to Sanlam and assaulted in the presence by Mr Nieuwoudt of a certain Momberg and other people and Du Plessis, of course.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR VAN DER MERWE: Is that all?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: No, it is not all.

MR VAN DER MERWE: But you had the opportunity to tell this Committee now how many assaults there were and they are growing by the minute. Would you please tell us how many times you were assaulted?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Counsel ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: No, please. You have mentioned 1979, you have mentioned 1980, 1981, I want you to continue.

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Okay. In 1982 I wasn't, I hadn't had a brush with them - was it 1982?  Ja, well, I was arrested in the Ciskei and then in 1983, ja, that's the year I wasn't detained myself. In 1984, in January 1984, is the time when Nieuwoudt assaulted me during that time, and again, with of course, not only assault as I said, the physical and psychological torture he used to embark upon, for example, the case he opened against me of attempted armed robbery and attempted murder. Those cases were instituted by him through his spy, Patrick Hlongwane, and that is what he, after assaulting me there, he followed with those two cases on me.  And with the others that I have already told about.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Did you sustain any injuries in all this time during these assaults, apart from the assault described by Mr Nieuwoudt?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: During this one, at the New Brighton police station, yes, I did.  I went to a doctor and even photos of me which appeared in newspapers, showed me being swollen with the bruises that I got from that assault. And that is what I said to you, the Minister responded in Parliament. Then so-called Minister then, I don't know who he was, could have been Louis le Grange or Vlok, I can't remember, but one of them answered a question tabled in Parliament to that effect, that yes, I was taken for so-called intimidatory behaviour.

MR VAN DER MERWE: These cases that were opened against you in 1994 ...

CHAIRPERSON: 1984.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I beg your pardon, 1984. Who was the investigating officer in those cases, do you know?

MR JACK DEMONSTRATES: Let me tell you, they were the murder and robbery, it was the murder and robbery squad, because it was involving murder, Sir.

MR VAN DER MERWE: I'm sorry, that was ... (intervention).