Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-15

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, our role and function was the maximum disruption of the enemy.  We did not only see killing the enemy as a method by which we could work, it was a point that was made very strongly that we said that we can only make a contribution.  The question that you are asking me at the moment and I would then be concentrating on my level in the answer and the execution that I would have to give to prevent such things from happening.

MR WILLIAMS: Now if a person was involved in the community for example where he educated them about the evils of apartheid, did that qualify him as a target?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That would have depended on whether he was busy with counter-revolutionary processes, whether he was physically busy transporting people and whether he was busy transporting bombs at the back of his car and whether he was busy with meetings where the bombing of shopping centres and other activities that could cause a revolution were planned and it was not for us at the end of the day to determine this, this would be determined by the intelligence community and by the time that it arrived with us we were the executors of such actions.

MR WILLIAMS: Now if I understand you correctly what you're saying is that someone should have done something physically beyond merely educating the people, you should have either committed acts of terror or rendered active physical support for those actions to be taken, is that correct?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: So by definition also then the person is merely involved in some organisation where you tried to educate your people about the evils of apartheid, that person would not have been qualified as a target, is that correct?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes that is correct, he would not have been a target.

MR WILLIAMS: Now Sir, I put it to you that I've never ever been involved in acts of terror.  I've never discussed plans of sabotage, I've never planted any bombs in my life, I've never committed any act of terror against anyone and yet my name was mentioned to your organisation and on the basis of that, action was taken.  Do you want to comment on that?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes, that was a generalisation, whether it was the case I do not know.  The reason for the steps were specifically because the Centre was seen as a place from which such planning was made.

MR WILLIAMS: But the thing is, was that information ever tested because I tell you I was personally involved, myself and Osmond Alexander were the leaders of the organisation that was the target of your organisation, Kewtown Youth Movement?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: My role and function, Mr Chairperson, I have repeatedly said was to shoot I was pointed to shoot and the intelligence community would determine the area and the environment and it was not my decision to decide upon life and death, I was an element of the structure and this would then have to be looked at on a total level.

MR WILLIAMS: Sir, other information that supplied to your organisation was that I was a gangster and I put it to you emphatically that never in my life was I ever a gangster.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Then that intelligence would at the end of the day been rejected, then it would not have been confirmed as information.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you know that it was very easy for a professional unit, like your unit, to verify that information?  Do you know what they could have done?  They could have just phoned the local police office and ask them whether they've got any file on me, whether I've ever been a gangster, whether I've ever been involved in acts of terror.  The local policemen in that office could have told you no.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, I think I have already answered that question, that was not my role and function.  If I did that then I would not have done anything else other than confirm targets or to confirm intelligence, it was not my duty.

MR WILLIAMS: One of your men whose brothers worked at the local police station, he could have phoned his brother and checked that simple information.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I have no comment.

MR WILLIAMS: One of the other information that came to your men was that I was involved myself and the organisation, the Kewtown Youth Movement was involved in the planting of a bomb at the Athlone Magistrate's Court and the post office and I emphatically deny that I was ever involved in those incidents.  Do you want to comment on that?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I have no comment.

MR WILLIAMS: Sir, I want to put it to you further that other information that came to the knowledge of your unit was that a certain terrorist trial was currently proceeding and there were taxis or mini-buses ferrying people to attend court and I want to put it to you that that trial or the people that stood trial or that trial related directly to the Athlone bombing incident, that was public knowledge, it was in the newspapers, your men could have ascertained that very easily and that was before the bomb, before the Athlone Learning Centre was bombed.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, everything that was intelligence, if it was intelligence it had not been confirmed yet.  Where that information comes from I do not know, I did not see that.  On my level I would look at the intelligence or at the information if it was already verified and this would then be processed and this would then become a project accordingly.  The ground level detail of it I think you will have to ask the people who were directly involved with this.

MR WILLIAMS: But if your men had followed basic intelligence procedure or if they had committed an act of intelligence by picking up the newspaper, they would have ascertained those facts?  They would have ascertained that other people are being charged for the Athlone bombing incident?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: You would have to see it within the context of the time in which we lived.  At that time there was an emergency situation in the country and the governing party was under pressure.  We were the means by which the governing party tried to maintain control and within this circumstances it would have to be seen to go back from now to twelve years ago and to say what was wrong or right is not possible for me.

MR WILLIAMS: I'm talking about something that was public knowledge at the time.  If you just opened a newspaper you could have ascertained the true facts.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: There were many, it was also public knowledge, as you are calling it, at that time, that there was an emergency situation, that steps were needed, that bombs were exploded and it was a while later after all these things had become public knowledge that it was also public knowledge that the CCB would have to take responsibility for the previous government's entire problem.  I put it in writing and said that we will on our level take responsibility and we will not stand in for the entire National Party and all the apartheid crimes, that it is called now, of the previous system so I cannot give you more details now that what I've already given you.

MR WILLIAMS: But can I just appeal to you to concentrate on the question.  The question is why didn't you men perform a basic intelligence function like opening a newspaper?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I do not have to concentrate on a question, please ask them this question, ask them this.  Mr Chairperson, it depends on you to ask them this.

MR WILLIAMS: Other information that was also supplied to your men was that a person who died in one of the bombing incidents in Athlone was Colleen Williams and that she's the half sister of myself.  Did that come to your knowledge?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I do not know anything about this and once again I will say I do not know where you get these questions from, it is just intelligence.  It must be confirmed that that is the case.