Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: And you went across the RSA border?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: Yes, that is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Tait, you are aware of the evidence that Mr De Kock had given with the initial stages of the De Kock hearings with regard to the background and the reasons for Vlakplaas and the objectives for Vlakplaas, do you agree that you were in essence a counter-insurgency Unit?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And according to you, you acted against those people whose declared objective it was to usurp the government?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you see it as part of your task, as a member of the Security Police, to become involved in such actions?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: And did you satisfy yourself that this was the type of war that would be fought?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: It would seem from your statement that you had beforehand been involved in the war in South-West Africa?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Were you in any contacts in South-West?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Can you give an estimation of how many contacts?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: Over a period of eight years, it must be approximately 200 contacts Chairperson, I am not certain.

MR BOOYENS: And with regard to you personally, was there a difference between the type of war which you fought in South-West and the war that you fought here in South Africa when you returned?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: No Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: And the people under whose command you served, did they make it clear to you that it was your task to act against these people and if the circumstances needed it, to shoot these people?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: And you, if you were not satisfied with doing this, you would have left, but you thought that it was in the interest of your own country and it was in the interest to maintain the then government?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: And with regard to you, people who assisted the insurgents, were they any less important than the insurgents themselves?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: No Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cornelius, do you have any questions?

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen?

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, no questions, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: No questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: No questions thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moerane?

MR MOERANE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Tait, you have referred to the approximately 200 contacts, that is the word that you used, in South-West Africa, by that you mean incidents where there was shooting between you and Swapo fighters?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Do you know how many of these you killed?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: I cannot say precisely, in one contact for example we killed 38 persons, so it must be a great number, I cannot speculate.  I am not certain of the number.

MR MOERANE: You say it could be between 200 and 300 that you killed?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: Yes, as I have said I cannot speculate regarding the number, that may be possible.

MR MOERANE: I see, so killing your political foes was not a new thing for you?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: No Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: But you see, you were a member of the South African Police Force, you are not a member of the South African Defence Force?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: And one of your duties was not to kill your political foes, but to protect the public of South Africa, black and white and so-called terrorists or non-terrorists, not so?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Where did you get the authority to kill members of the ANC?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: I regarded this as part of my duties.

MR MOERANE: Who told you that, if anybody?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: In all my duties where I was involved, I received a specific order from somebody, I did not act out of own interest.

MR MOERANE: You know that, you knew that you were not obliged to agree to an unlawful order, not so?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: It is not a question of your believing that you could not say no to a patently unlawful order?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: For how long were you attached to the Vlakplaas Unit?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: Approximately four to five years, I am not certain of the exact period of time.

MR MOERANE: From about what year?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: From the beginning of 1988 up to and including 1993.

MR MOERANE: When you say you saw operations in South West-Africa, were you part of the Koevoet Unit?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Moerane, what was your rank during June 1988?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: I was a Warrant Officer.

MR MOERANE: Am I correct to say that on or about the 12th of June 1988 you were briefed about the operation that was going to take place on the South African side of the border, in other words you were briefed about the ambush that was to take place on the South African side of the border, the one involving Colonel De Kock, Warrant Officer Pienaar, Theron and the others?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: I knew about it, but I did not know exactly who would be involved and exactly what they were going to do.  As far as I knew, I received specific information regarding a cross-border operation.

MR MOERANE: Didn't you know that the people who were going to be transported into the country, were to be eliminated?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: I knew about it, but my knowledge about it was that I knew that they would be eliminated on the other side of the border and that was it, who would participate in it and what exactly would take place, was something that I was not informed about.

MR MOERANE: And you had just spent four days at Island Rock at the so-called team building workshop?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: Where you were informed that four so-called ANC terrorists had been killed a few days before?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: Chairperson, it came to my attention, I was not specifically informed.  I must have heard it from one of my friends, but all that was said was that four terrorists were killed.  Furthermore I knew nothing about the matter, and anything else that I heard about it, I heard it here during these proceedings.

MR MOERANE: Do you mean to tell me that at Island Rock, it wasn't said four terrorists were killed and others are expected?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: That is correct Chairperson.  As I have already said, I heard about the four and that there would possibly be other infiltrators, but any  further detail was not made known to me.   That was my knowledge at that stage.

MR MOERANE: What were your instructions with regard to the people who were going to escort the infiltrators?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: The instruction was that they had to be killed.

MR MOERANE: Who gave you those instructions?

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: The instruction came from Major De Kock.

MR MOERANE: Yes, now I didn't quite follow your evidence about the events that occurred there, can you please tell this Honourable Court precisely what occurred and what you actually observed?