Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-19

EDWARD WEBB: No, there was no budget at that stage, it all happened so quickly.  Reasons were given why we had to act, by Col Verster to myself, to enable me to make a decision whether we were going to do something or not.  The suggestion was then to plant a limpet mine and to cause it to explode in the building, the recommendation was also that there should be no casualties.
	There was a request that we should use a remote control device, that we should obtain such a remote control device and it had to be found as soon as possible because the people who were supposed to be involved had to come from Pretoria that very same night.  From Pretoria to Cape Town.
	I then fetched this remote control device through means of Hekkies van Heerden.  I didn't physically go and fetch it, I did it through his mediation.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, who's Hekkies van Heerden?

EDWARD WEBB: He was my Engineering Officer at Special Forces, Head Office.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you get at that meeting, details as to who the operatives involved in the operation were, the people on the ground?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: And thereafter, was there any sort of formal report-back?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, on the first occasion afterwards when I saw Col Verster, I can't remember exactly when, it wasn't long after the 31st, he informed me that the operation had been completed successfully and according to his information at that stage, there had been no casualties.

CHAIRPERSON: And, General, you've said that you're applying for amnesty in respect of the Early Learning Centre and the incident that took place at Bishop Tutu's house.  We're also hearing amnesty applications here concerning the Dullah Omar and Gavin Evans incidents, is there any reason why you're not applying for amnesty in respect of those two matters?

EDWARD WEBB: Because I didn't approve those projects, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: The system in the CCB, of which you were the Managing Director, for the approval of projects, was it such that some projects could be approved at a lower level and only certain projects went up to you, or were they all meant to come to you?  How did it come about that you approved some projects but not others?

EDWARD WEBB: I just want to correct something, I wasn't the Managing Director, I was the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sorry, the Chairperson.  Sorry, it's my mistake, Mr Verster was the Managing Director.

EDWARD WEBB: There were certain delegated powers which the Managing Director had and in respect of the appointment of certain people it wasn't necessary to come to me as the Chairperson.  For instance if vehicles had to be purchased, it wasn't necessary to come to me and the establishment of the profession of certain members of the CCB, known members of the CCB, it wasn't necessary to come to me and when it came to the monitoring of a person, it was also not necessary to obtain my permission.  But where we were planning operations, such as for instance, the Dullah Omar incident, then it would definitely have been necessary to come to me for authorisation.

MR LAX: To be specific, are you talking about elimination of people?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, it could be elimination of people.

MR LAX: Because we've heard that in both the Omar and the Evans matter, they were going to kill them.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And General, when you were Chairman of the CCB, was that your sole function or were you still busy with other aspects of Special Forces?

EDWARD WEBB: The CCB was a small sub-section of Special Forces, so I still had all the other regiments under me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so you didn't devote your full time to this?

EDWARD WEBB: No, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis, do you have any further questions?

MR H DU PLESSIS: Just one aspect.
	General Webb, you've heard what Col Joe Verster testified about the Omar project and the Evans project.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR H DU PLESSIS: Do you want to comment on that in any way?

EDWARD WEBB: As I said, I didn't approve those projects.

MR H DU PLESSIS: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR H DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wessels, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the applicant?

MR WESSELS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	General, what is the extent of Special Forces?

EDWARD WEBB: It was to launch special operations which could not be done by other parts of the Defence Force, plus in the case of the CCB, the maximal disruption of the enemy.

MR WESSELS: What did Special Forces do, occupy themselves with during 1989 primarily?  What were they busy doing?

EDWARD WEBB: Well to wage the counter-insurgency struggle against the enemies of South Africa.

MR WESSELS: How was that done?

EDWARD WEBB: Firstly, there was a certain foreign aspect, aspects which related to things outside our borders, I'm not prepared to talk about that, and then there was this bomb incident in Athlone.

MR WESSELS: General, you said that the regiments of Special Forces also fell under your command, is that correct?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR WESSELS: Are those all the regiments?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, all the regiments.

MR WESSELS: So the whole of Special Forces operations, that fell under your command?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR WESSELS: How big a part of your daily functions was taken up by CCB activities as distinct to the Special Forces activities?

EDWARD WEBB: Col Verster and I met once a week for about an hour.

MR WESSELS: And did you discuss all CCB matters?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR WESSELS: You said that the Athlone incident, there you gave an oral command, or authorisation.

EDWARD WEBB: Correct.

MR WESSELS: Was it possible therefore, to give an oral authorisation for a certain operation?

EDWARD WEBB: In this case, yes.

MR WESSELS: You heard that there was evidence about the fact that Mr Omar and Mr Evans, that they were monitored.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR WESSELS: And money was also used in that regard.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR WESSELS: It wasn't necessary that your permission be gained for that?

EDWARD WEBB: That's correct.

MR WESSELS: Now Mr Verster testified that the projects regarding the elimination of Mr Omar and Mr Evans, that he discussed these with you.  He couldn't recall the details, but he said that it was discussed with you and that he got your approval, according to him.  You say you didn't give such an approval.

EDWARD WEBB: I didn't give such approval, no.

MR WESSELS: Is it possible that there's a misunderstanding between the two of you, that you thought he was talking about monitoring and he thought he was discussing the authorisation of elimination?

EDWARD WEBB: Well I think it would be quite difficult to have a misunderstanding between eliminating and monitoring.

MR WESSELS: If Mr Verster had come to you with the information that these people were active supporters of the enemy of the day and were contributing to the struggle against the government and he asked you the authority for a project to eliminate them, would you have authorised such a project?

EDWARD WEBB: I would have taken such a project to higher authority for authorisation.

MR WESSELS: Would you have recommended it?

EDWARD WEBB: According to the facts which I've now heard, I probably would have authorised it, but I would have taken it to higher authority to get that authority.

MR WESSELS: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis.