Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1999-05-26

UNKNOWN: And on the date of the incident when he was killed. On that Saturday morning, was he then drunk?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, he was drunk on that day.

UNKNOWN: He was in fact very drunk, if I remember correctly, on some of the information we have before us. Is that not so?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That's correct, sir.

UNKNOWN: And that incident took place, according to the record, at about quarter to twelve, in the middle of the day, in front of the Post Office.

JOHN SERAME GULU: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Now, Adv Gcabashe, asked you about developing an intention to kill him. If you indeed had considered it, why, why did you wait, why did you do it in the middle of the day where everybody could see you, where the public was present, and with a way you could easily be arrested, seen, identified, arrested? Why did you not plan it diligently so that you would not be linked to this crime?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I cannot hide myself from my enemy like I've already explained. They were in town, there was no other chance that I could run away because they were already fighting, so I had to stand and defend myself. So I took part in that fight with the intention of killing him. Because he was an obstacle in the way of my organisation's development.

UNKNOWN: You read, did you read the statements, did you listen to the evidence at the hearing of people who said that you were indeed fighting and that your brother, Frans, asked a knife from you which you duly handed him and that he killed the deceased. You remember that, all those statements, all the evidence.

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I do remember that evidence. But it is not like it is said.

UNKNOWN: And you remember that the evidence there was, and I think the judge also found on those basis, on that basis, that you took the knife from your brother's pocket, from Frans' pocket? You remember hearing that or seeing such statements?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I saw that statement from my lawyer and I also remember that it was said in court.

UNKNOWN: The harassment of the community by this Stechers gang. Did you say that they were raping people and robbing people? You're talking about the school children raping people in the community and robbing the community.

JOHN SERAME GULU: That's correct, sir.

UNKNOWN: Was Phinneas ever identified with these activities?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes.

UNKNOWN: How did you identify him or link him to these activities?

JOHN SERAME GULU: He was the person who was in the forefront, he was also the leader of that gang and he took part in all these activities.

UNKNOWN: In acts of rape, assaults, robberies?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Did you see him?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I saw him on many occasions. They also did that to me.

UNKNOWN: Did Phinneas attack you on occasion? Did he rob you.

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes. Yes, they once robbed me of my money.

UNKNOWN: Did he assault you?

JOHN SERAME GULU: They never assaulted me. They only took my money and I reported that to the police but they were never arrested.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Just one thing, this name Stechers. Does it mean something, or is it the name of a place or a person, or what? Do you know where it comes from?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I cannot explain how this name came about. I only hear about it, this name.

CHAIRPERSON: All right. Yes, we'll take the luncheon adjournment and we will reconvene at 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gulu, I remind you that you are still under oath. You understand?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mohlaba, any re-examination?

MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no re-examination.
WITNESS EXCUSED
FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG

MR MOHLABA: And I would want to call the next witness, being the applicant's brother, I'm just trying to get the name, being Frans Morwaeng, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, will, Mr Morwaeng take the stand now. I think perhaps Mr Gulu must make a place for Mr Morwaeng to sit there, behind the mike. All right, perhaps you must just remain standing, Mr Morwaeng, so that you can just take the oath.

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba?

MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Morwaeng, the applicant here, Mr Gulu, John Gulu, is he known to you?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: Yes, it's my younger brother.

MR MOHLABA: And you have been sitting here and listened to his testimony. Do you confirm that you were present when the deceased was killed? That is ... (intervention)

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: Yes, I was present. That is on 31 of May, 31 of May 1992. It is not on the 30th but 31st.

MR MOHLABA: Can you remember what day of the week was that?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: It was on a Saturday, around 11 o'clock in the morning.

MR MOHLABA: Phinneas Montso, the deceased, was he known to you?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: Yes, I knew him.

MR MOHLABA: Can you explain to this Committee how you came to know him?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: Phinneas Montso was a member of the ANC Youth League in 1990, whilst I was a member of the Civic Organisation. At the time, Phinneas Montso and together with other members of the ANC Youth League left ANC Youth League and became members of the Eagles Organisation, where there was a problem between the ANC Youth League and the Eagles Organisation.

MR MOHLABA: You were also, you also applied for amnesty in respect of this incident of the killing of the deceased, but subsequently you withdrew your application. Is that correct?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: Yes, that is correct. I applied for amnesty, but I withdraw because of certain reasons.

MR MOHLABA: I want to show you page 20 of the paginated bundle. There is a statement. I just want to confirm whether  this is your statement and whether you agree with the contents  thereof and regard them to be true.

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: Page 20. Yes, I do.

MR MOHLABA: What do you know about the activities of the Eagles Club or Eagles gang?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: This Eagles Organisation, in 1990, 91, 92 were harassing members of the ANC. This Eagles did not want the presence of the ANC together with the police in Postmasburg. They were attacking members of the ANC in their houses. They were destroying property. They ... (indistinct). ANC members did not have ... (indistinct) the persons of the Eagles gang, let me put it that way.

MR MOHLABA: Do you know that these Eagles gang, I beg your pardon, these Eagles gang or Eagles club disbanded somewhere during 1990?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: I heard about it when I received a letter from the ... (indistinct) but I explained that after, that is 1991, because Eagles started in June 1990. That is when they started to harass members of the ANC ... (indistinct) by attacking people who were innocent, raping and robbing people and harassing people in their houses. There was no stability in the community in Postmasburg during the existence of Eagles and Stechers.

MR MOHLABA: Tell us about the Stechers. Did the Eagles disband and the members thereof join the Stechers or these two gangs were existing alongside each other during those periods?

FRANS MOBIKA MORWAENG: All members with the Eagles organisation became members of Stechers. They just changed the name from Eagles to Stechers. That was in 1991. They changed their name from Eagles to Stechers Club, Lovers.

MR MOHLABA: You mention that the deceased was a member of Stechers Lovers or Eagles. How did you identify him? Did you, just explain to the Committee how you did came to know that he was, in fact, a member of this organisation.