Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-19

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I can explain to that.  The guy came to me and I start from the beginning when I start to meet the guy.  The man came with his hands up and the man said in Xhosa, I can take you to where the others are and there was a White Sergeant, since he was my senior and I was a Black guy, I, always you had to take orders, we even take orders from a Lance Sergeant who does not have even, who does not even have, is a Full Sergeant.  So, he told me, "skiet die man", so I shot the man.  Then he told me, "jy skiet kak".  He took a R1, he shot the man through the stomach and I think the bullet came through here.

UNKNOWN: The point is that at the time that you were told to shoot the man, in other words, the first shot that Mr Mlifie sustained, was it not apparent to you that the man was surrendering?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: It was apparent and I wanted also to tell, I told them this man says he can take us to where the others are, that was my intention at that time.

UNKNOWN: It did not strike you as being evil to want to shoot someone who is clearly surrendering to you?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: At that time it was not strange, because orders were orders, you take them from above.

UNKNOWN: It did not occur to you to tell this person who was giving you instruction, well shoot yourself then if you want to?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: No, I could not have done that.

UNKNOWN: Would you explain?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: If they, in the old apartheid regime when they called you a very good cop, you are a cop who takes orders and achieve them without asking questions.  Then you are a good cop.

UNKNOWN: Did you not say that the people who were on the scene that day, or at least at the planning at Wingfield, were aware of the fact that you people came from Pretoria?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Since Mr Bellingan was liaising with this, many people they knew of our existence, they knew that we are here even Captain, sorry, Lieutenant Liebenberg knew that we are here, so the people who were on the planning session that morning, everybody knew we, who we are and what is going on.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on, I would just like to go back a little please.  You have told us orders are orders and you are a good cop, because you obey orders.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Mr Chairman, I said in the old apartheid regime, if you are, did obey orders then you are regarded as a good cop.

CHAIRPERSON: But I understood you to say earlier in your evidence that the instructions you had been given was to apprehend these people, that was what you were told at the  meeting.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: There was talk about apprehending the people, Mr Chairman, but after and on top of those talks of apprehending the people, there were some talk of taking the people out.

CHAIRPERSON: But the senior officer had talked of apprehending?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And you now had a chance to apprehend someone who was coming to surrender to you.  Why did you then follow a Sergeant's orders in the face of the orders by the Major?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Mr Chairman, I followed the Sergeant's orders, because he was my immediate Commander on the scene at that time next to that person, because I relayed the message to him that the man tried, wants to show us where his other comrades are.  Then the man say shoot the man, which to me, gave me the impression that they do not want to arrest anybody alive.

JUDGE MILLER: Why did you not refuse to shoot the man?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: At first, in the old apartheid regime, Mr Chairman, you could not refuse an order especially if they were saying here that you are dealing with the ANC or the PAC or the cadres.  That could have looked like you are stabbing them at the back or you are a sell-out.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mbelo, did you regard what the White officer said to you as an order?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why, I mean, you had been given specific instructions by Mr Odendal to apprehend the insurgents?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Mr Chairman, I did take instructions and I did shoot the man.  I was told to shoot the man, because I told him, the Sergeant who was next to me, that this man want to give himself up, then he say, no, shoot the man, then I shot the man in the head and he told me that, "ek skiet kak", then he shoot the man further.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you not scared that by shooting this man you would now be a bad cop, because a senior officer had given you specific instructions of what to do?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Mr Chairman, I was not scared that I was becoming a bad cop.  I was only scared that if I do not do it himself, because there was too much shooting.  I could have got shot myself also.  Then they could have said I was shot by one of the guerrillas on the scene.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, do you know who that Sergeant was who gave you that order?  Can you identify the man?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Mr Chairman, even today I do not know that man, because we only met in the morning of that day when we were in Wingfield.  From there when we, when they were deployed I did not meet that man again until we met when this happenings took place.  I do not know that White Sergeant, Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How do you know that he is a Sergeant?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Mr Chairman, he was wearing his Riot Squad unit uniform, his rank was on his, how can you, on his shoulder, Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So, you could identify by what he was wearing that he is a Sergeant?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir, I could identify his rank.  That is right, Mr Chairman.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You may proceed Mr Williams.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Ms Khampepe.
	Now, you say that you were following orders, that you felt you were in no position to refuse to follow that kind of order?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is so, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Were you also forced to accept the R1 000,00 reward for that kill?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, I was not forced, I was just given it and I was also amazed, was the money, what this money is for.

UNKNOWN: Did it not feel strange to you that you had killed a defenceless man and now you were given money, you just accepted the money as well?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I felt strange, it felt strange, really, because it was the first time such things happen and it was not the first time that I was involved in any, in operations.  I have been in many, in a couple operations.  I have never been offered money, but this one I was offered money, so it was very strange for me.

UNKNOWN: Look a little bit at the scene there.  You say that when you arrived at that intersection, you say that Christopher Piet, whom you recognised as Christopher Piet, which is referred to as Mr E or D on the plan, was already lying on the ground.  Is that correct?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I said when I came down from the south, going to the crossing, that is when Chris came running and shooting and immediately when I passed him, he fell down to the ground.

UNKNOWN: Do you remember having noticed Jabu Miya, the person who is lying in NY3, as having been lying there already when you arrived in the intersection?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, I did see Mr Jabu lying there.  He was lying there already.  He was shot already when I came into that intersection.

UNKNOWN: So, we know that at least two of the deceased were already down at the time that you came into  the intersection, not so?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: One was already down, the other one fell after I passed him, when I was going to the intersection.

UNKNOWN: When you stopped your vehicle at the point that you refer to in the plan, J, your attention was then attracted to Sergeant Bellingan.  Is that correct?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is correct.