Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: It was decided that we should go and see another doctor at Sansabela and we went there because it was not far from our village and it was not far from the first doctor that we went to see.

MR RICHARD: I work out that this is the third attempt to see somebody, on this the third attempt, did you get to see this person?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Yes, we did.

MR RICHARD: What did you tell the moloi, the ngaka, not the moloi, the sangoma.

CHAIRPERSON: What was his name?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: He was Mr Theledi.

CHAIRPERSON: What was he, was he a sangoma or was he a witch-doctor?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: He was a witch-doctor.

MR RICHARD: Is that a moloi or ngaka?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: He is the witch-doctor.

MR RICHARD: Was he a good person or a bad person?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: He was a good person.

MR RICHARD: Did you pay him the money?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: We did not pay him because he told us that ...

MR RICHARD: What did he tell you?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: He told us that he is not the person who can be able to help us, because we know the people who are doing those things in our village, so he is not in a position to help us, so we left.

MR RICHARD: Before you say you left, what did he say you should do?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: He told us that on our way, there will be something that will surprise us inside the kombi, we will see something surprising, but he told us to go ahead and go back because there was nothing that was going to harm us.

MR RICHARD: Did you find anything in the kombi?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Yes.

MR RICHARD: What did you find in the kombi?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: We had a problem because one of us who was a leader, told us that she wanted to disembark the kombi, to go alone, and then we did not allow her to do that.  We could not leave her at that place, because it was at night.

MR RICHARD: What did you find surprising?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: What surprised us was the fact that she wanted to disembark the kombi, she did not arrive with us at the village.

MR RICHARD: Did she ever get out of the kombi after getting into it?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: No, she did not because we did not allow her to do that.  Then at the end, she stopped with her actions.

MR RICHARD: And how did she, what do you mean she didn't arrive with you at the village?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I was also surprised why she did not want to arrive with us at the village, because we went together.

MR RICHARD: Did she just disappear from inside the kombi?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: No, she did not disappear.

MR RICHARD: Then, when you say she did not arrive back in your village with you, what did you mean?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I say that she did not want to arrive with us at the village.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but did she eventually arrive with you, back in the village?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Good.  Take it from there Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  When you left the sangoma, Theledi, what did you think you should do next, what did he tell you to do about the witchcraft problem?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: He did not tell us what to do because he said to us we know those people.

MR RICHARD: Now, what did you decide to do because of what he said?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: We went back, straight to the church and the youth were still there.

MR RICHARD: What did you do there?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: When we arrived at the church, we gave them the report, we told them that we did not find the first doctor and then we decided to go and see Mr Theledi and Mr Theledi told us that we know the people who were causing the problem in the village.

MR RICHARD: What did the meeting then decide as a result of that information?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: It was decided that some people should be sent to buy petrol.

MR RICHARD: What were you going to do with the petrol?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: They said we were going to burn the witches.

MR RICHARD: Who did you decide were the witches, who were the witches?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: The witch-doctor did not tell us their names.

MR RICHARD: Who did you decide the witches, you were going to burn, were?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: May you please repeat the question?

MR RICHARD: You had bought petrol with which you were going to burn the witches.  Mr Theledi had not told you who the witches were.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just keep it right there, and did you then burn any witches?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Yes, there is one that we burnt, but we suspected that she was a witch because Mr Theledi didn't tell us their names.

CHAIRPERSON: All right Mr Richard, try and take it from there.

MR RICHARD: Why did you decide that that particular person was a witch if Mr Theledi hadn't told you that she was a witch?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: I was also surprised because the crowd just went straight to that person.

MR RICHARD: What do you mean when you say the "car just went straight to that person", please tell us?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: May you please repeat the question?

MR RICHARD: You said that your car just went straight to a person's house, is that not correct?

INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon Mr Chairperson, I interpreted the crowd not the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tladi, you said the crowd went straight to somebody's house, is that right.  Now first tell us who is this person?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: She was Mrs Bathule Baphela.

CHAIRPERSON: Bathule Baphela.  Let him tell us exactly what the movements were.

MR RICHARD: Please continue.

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: As we were going there to Mrs Baphela's place, it was after six o'clock.  When we arrived, some members of the crowd entered the house and others surrounded the house.  We were together with her last born son, then we asked him to go and call his mother.  He entered the house and called his mother, his mother was with his father.  His parents came out, his mother and his father and when he came out, he had an axe in his hand and his father instructed him to leave that axe so that we could listen to what these people wanted.  I also encouraged him to leave that axe.
	I made it clear to him that there is nothing that he could do to that people because there were so many people in that yard.  He came with his parents, his mother and his father.  I was with them in front of the house, the four of us.  It was myself and Mrs Bathule Baphela, her son and Mr Baphela, the senior.   We were facing the crowd.
	Mr Baphela, before he could ask any questions, I asked them why have they come here because they are now frightening the family.  I wanted to know why are they not saying anything to him.  That is when they started telling me that they came here because of witchcraft and then he asked them who was a witch.  They told him that his wife was a witch.
	He told the crowd that because he was not always at home, he was working elsewhere, "I ask for forgiveness" and soon thereafter chaos ensued, they started throwing stones and Mr Baphela was also struck by a knopkierie, I could not see who struck him with the knopkierie.  It was all chaos in the yard because people were throwing stones.  I almost injured myself because I was standing with them.

MR RICHARD: What happened to Mrs Baphela?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: Mrs Baphela was taken by the crowd, they wanted to know from her who were her accomplices and others were having petrol and they were giving her petrol to drink.   As we went out of the yard ...

MR RICHARD: What happened as you went out of the yard?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: They were asking her questions, they wanted to know her accomplices and her response was that "I am not a witch, instead I am being bewitched because they even killed my son".

MR RICHARD: What did the crowd do?

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI: They forced her to drink the petrol and dosing her with petrol.  As we were passing her next-door neighbour, she tried to run away and she was struck by a knopkierie, Freddie struck her with a knopkierie and she fell down.