Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-02-17

MR RICHARD: Now in relation to proportionality as you saw it at the time, was what you call elimination the only option open to you, weren't there other options?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: As I explained before, there was no other option available.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?  On your version he had had three months to tell the police all that he knew about you, is that not so?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: On your version he had had approximately three moths to tell the police all that he knew about you.  He hadn't seen you for three months, he'd disappeared.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: On the afternoon in question he came upon you sitting perfectly peacefully at Clive's home, a place that he knew well.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: He had discovered nothing new on that afternoon.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So he had nothing new to tell the police, nothing new he could have told them.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: I do not know about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well why did you suddenly have to execute him in a matter of hours, without even questioning him, what was the sudden new danger?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Firstly, the situation that prevailed at that time was that of war in the country.  Secondly, as a commander I had to provide security for my comrades and for myself.  Thirdly, logistics was also a very important matter and one was not able to take other options.  That is why I say at the time the only option available to me was that of eliminating him.

CHAIRPERSON: At a time when you knew he had had a radio on him, presumably connected to the police?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Please repeat.

CHAIRPERSON: You knew at the time he had a transmitter on his person, presumably connected up to the police?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: They presumably were fully aware of the fact then that he had come and was talking to you?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were then prepared to commit a murder knowing that you would be the prime suspect, and you say this was for your security.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR RICHARD: To continue with that point, you have stated you thought you were in imminent danger of being caught by the police because of the transmitter, correct?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now in the nature of things, because you say you're familiar with these things, you would have known that if it were a transmitter there would have been a back-up team listening to the transactions where the deceased was and they would have known where he went.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Yes, that is why I destroyed it quickly.

MR RICHARD: But then even at the time you destroyed it, you would have been aware that if it was all properly set up and was a transmitter you would have been in immediate and imminent danger being where you were because the back-up team would have known where their so-called informer was going.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: I cannot say with certainty with regards to that, but that is one of the reasons why we left that place quickly.

CHAIRPERSON: You see what you said in your statement was
"What bothered me mostly was that who was listening to my conversation with him."
You thought they were listening to your conversation with him, they would have heard you demanding that he give you the transmitter.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now how long did it take you to leave the house where you say you were, after finding the transmitter as you call it, as you allege it is?  For how long were you at that house after finding it?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: I do not remember quite well, as I mentioned yesterday with regards to time.

MR RICHARD: Did you leave quickly or did it take some time?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: We left quickly, we did not waste time.

MR RICHARD: Now how far away did you go?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: The place was not too far.  If I'm not mistaken it could have been about 800 metres away.

MR RICHARD: So you went approximately half a kilometre away from where the radio was last known to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: 800, it's not quite half a kilometre.  Sorry, before you go with that, 800 metres away you would hear a gunshot, wouldn't you?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: I'm responding the question that when we left Clive's house where exactly did we go.  The 800 metre distance that I'm referring to is the distance between the school that we went to from Clive's home.

CHAIRPERSON: So it's the school now you say was 800 metres away?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That would have been within hearing of the gunshot, the school would have?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: When I gave evidence yesterday I explained that when we left Clive's home we, I took him to a school and then Clive went away to fetch Sipho and Precious and when they arrived that is when we left for that spot.  We did not shoot him at the school.

CHAIRPERSON: No.

DR TSOTSI: When Sicelo disappeared did it occur to you that he had defected to the police?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: I explained before that I was confused, it did occur to me but I did not draw conclusions at that time.

DR TSOTSI: If he defected to the police, did you know or did you imagine what things he would have told the police about you?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Yes, I did think about it.

DR TSOTSI: When he subsequently admitted to you that he was an informer, what conclusions did you draw from that?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Please repeat the question.

DR TSOTSI: I'm saying, when he confessed to you that he was in fact a police informer, what conclusions did you draw from that statement of his, about yourself and about the cell, about everybody, that's what I mean?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: What I thought is that he had given information about the cell.

CHAIRPERSON: None of the houses had been searched, had
they, belonging to members of the cell?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Prior or after we had shot Sicelo?

CHAIRPERSON: After he'd disappeared.  They all continued living at home quite peacefully, didn't they?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: No, I explained before that I did take precautionary measures and I organised accommodation for cell members and I told them that one should always be alert about what was happening.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but none of their homes were searched, were they?  And none of them were questioned?  You were sitting at Clive's home on the afternoon in question, quite peacefully you told us.  Mr Dube, isn't it quite clear that no steps had been taken against the members of the cell in those three months?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: It is not true that I did not do anything about the situation, I took precautionary measures.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dube, don't you want to answer the question?  The question I put to you is, is it not quite clear that no steps were taken against the members of the cell during those three months?  Their houses were not searched and they were not questioned.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, Chairperson.
	So on your version you met up with the deceased at about 7 p.m. that evening and the shooting happened between 9 and 10 p.m., is that correct?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: What I said is that I am not certain of the time, those were just my estimations.

MR RICHARD: Now how far from the school is the place of execution?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR RICHARD: It's 800 metres from Clive's house to the school, but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that the place where he was shot was 800 metres from the school, didn't you?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: No, I did not say so.  What I said was, the  distance from Clive's house to the school is 800 metres, and that is only my estimation.