Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-25

JABULANI DODA CELE: Everybody knew what was happening there because we were attacked and we had to leave the area.

MS MTANGA: Are you aware of any faction fights that were going on to this attack by yourselves in the area of Mashawase?

JABULANI DODA CELE: Yes I am aware or that there were faction fights but those had long been over before the political violence started.

MS MTANGA: Mr Cele, Mr Gumede is going to testify that he was never an IFP member and in fact - can I go on?  And in fact in his knowledge the violence that was going on in Mashawase was a faction fight that was going on and that your group, the group of people who left for Umgababa were not ANC members, they were assisted by ANC coming from Umgababa and that's how they became affiliated to the ANC meaning prior to going to Umgababa they were not ANC.  What is your comment on this?

JABULANI DODA CELE: I will say he's mistaken.

MS MTANGA: No further questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

MR WILLS: No re-examination thank you Mr Chairperson.
Mr Chairperson, that is the case for the applicants.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We have not been here very long, I speak now of the Members of the Committee and I think perhaps the legal representatives that I am quite sure that the interpreters and the people in the audience have been here for some considerable time and I think it would only be right that we take the adjournment now at 11 o'clock which is the normal time so they can leave for a few minutes if they wish to.
We'll take a short adjournment now till 11H15.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.  I will be calling two witnesses.  The first witness will be Bantu Hamilton Gumede and my second witness will be Anna Elizabeth Ndlovu.  Both witnesses gave evidence in court and their statements are in the bundle.  Before I go ahead with their evidence, I would like to put on record that we have more than fifteen victims in this matter but only eight families are attended, so those are the people that I'm representing and I'll give their names for the record.

MR LAX: Don't you in fact represent all of them in the absence of the balance in any event?

MS MTANGA: Only the ones who are here.

MR LAX: Ja but in the interest of the balance who are not here wouldn't you have some sort of subsidiary duty to represent their interests in any event?

MS MTANGA: That is so, okay.  Alright then, I will came Mr Hamilton Bantu Gumede.

MR LAX: His statement's at page 191 is it?

MS MTANGA: Yes.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, with your permission could I request that I just move to the other side and sit next to the applicants, I'm not a position to observe this witness or question him from my present position?  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: There's no need for the applicants to sit with loudspeakers in front of them now, I think you can sit there and they can move off to the side.  I would recommend though that you take your chair with you.

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: (sworn states)

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Gumede, will you please tell this Committee where you come from?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: From Mkwali at Towane.

MS MTANGA: For how long have you lived at Mkwali?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: Since I was born, I was born there and I grew up there, I never left the place.

MS MTANGA: Are you aware of the attack that was discussed in this hearing, the attack on the bus that the applicants are applying for?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Can you tell this Committee were you at any time involved in the bus or do you know anything about that attack or how were you involved in this attack?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: When the bus was attacked I was inside the bus.  I don't know whether you want me to explain about the attack itself?

MS MTANGA: Okay, you can stop there Mr Gumede.  On page 191 of the bundle, Chairperson, is the statement of Mr Gumede that he gave to the police and it was the basis of his evidence in court.  Do you confirm, Mr Gumede, that this was the statement that you gave to the police?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: Yes.

MS MTANGA: You have read it and understood it?

MR LAX: Have you read it to him Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Yes I've read it to him Mr Chairperson, he confirmed it's his statement.
	Mr Gumede, you have heard the evidence of the applicants and they'll testify that there was violence in Mkwali and Mashawase and that is the reason why the men in the bus you were riding were attacked because to them you were one of the attackers and you were also involved in the attack of Mr Mtolo.  What is your comment on this?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: This is no lies, there was no violence at Mkwali.  Even Mashawase, the violence wasn't there even though people were fighting each other but it wasn't political.  Can I proceed?

MS MTANGA: Why do you say it was not political, the violence in Mashawase was not political?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: People were fighting at Mashawase in 1990, they were fighting because of the demarcation.  People died there, the last person who died there was Master Shange's brother.  After the court intervened, we realised that some people who were staying there didn't like the resolution because they've lost their loved ones or their family members.  Therefore they continued fighting and this led to some people leaving the area.  Some of them went to Umgababa.  At that time there was no political conflict it was just the demarcation of the area.

MR LAX: Can I just stop you there, what do you mean the demarcation of the area?  What exactly are you talking about?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: I'm referring to it was just faction fights.

MR LAX: Yes, you've indicated between this group and that group but you haven't said what was ...[intervention]

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: People from Englenweni and people from Mashawase were fighting.

MR LAX: Just give us the first name please?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: Englenweni.

MR LAX: And what was the fight about?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: It was just conflict.

MR LAX: Yes but conflict over what?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: I'm not sure why there were conflicts but surely it wasn't political.

CHAIRPERSON: So you don't know why there was fighting but you're prepared to say on oath it wasn't political?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: Not that I don't know, it is just because I don't remember because it has been a long time.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you don't remember?  Fighting had disturbed your district like this?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: Yes it disturbed our communities.

MR LAX: Now you've told us it was about demarcation but you can't remember what it was really about?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: Yes.

MR LAX: Carry on Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Were you aware of a group of people coming from Mashawase that lived in the bush, the group of refugees who had fled violence in Mashawase?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: No, I don't know the people who were staying in the forest.

MS MTANGA: Were you also aware of the attack of the killing of Mr Mtolo at the time the bus was attacked, were you aware that this attack had taken place before the attack on the bus?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: Yes I heard about that, that Mtolo was attacked before the attack of the bus.  I didn't know how he was attacked because he's not my neighbour.

MS MTANGA: Where did Mtolo live?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: He was staying at Mkwali next to ...(indistinct).

MS MTANGA: Mr Gumede, did you belong to any political organisation and if so, which one?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: I am not a member of any political organisation even when we were attacked I wasn't a member of any political organisation.

MR LAX: The question was, was Mr Mtolo a member of any political organisation?

MS MTANGA: No I asked him.  Mr Lax, my question was, was he a member of a political organisation.

MR LAX: Sorry, it came across as if you were asking him about Mtolo, I beg your pardon.