Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-05

MR LANDMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Then also in regard to this application, we would also ask that the ANC's submission which have come before, that they will too be regarded as part of the record of these proceedings.  Alternatively that they could be referred to as if they have been admitted and are considered to be correct for purposes of this hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: As I have indicated we have at other hearings, and it is the practice I think where parties have made submissions to the TRC and they have been properly recorded, that we permit reference to them, but we would ask you to refer us to those portions you wish to refer to, not just say well you can find it in the ANC representations, and I'm quite sure as you have in other matters Mr Landman, you will tell us the pages, the references that you wish us to refer to.

MR LANDMAN: We shall do that Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman in - may we also then request that the applicants be called out of order in order to show the chain of command and the steps that were taken and in that regard I'd ask for leave to call Solly Zacherias Shoke, who has already taken his position at the applicant's microphone.

DR TSOTSI: Thank you Mr Landman, we'll have to swear him in.  Can you please rise sir?  Your full names please?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: (affirmed states)

MR LANDMAN: Thank you.  Mr Shoke could you possibly, just for purposes of the record, tell the Committee how old you are?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: 42 years.

MR LANDMAN: And then also for the assistance of the interpreters, will you be giving your evidence in English or any other language?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: English.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Shoke in 1987 were you a member of Umkhonto weSizwe?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: That's correct.

MR LANDMAN: When did you join Umkhonto weSizwe?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: In 1976, shortly after the June 16 uprising.

MR LANDMAN: ... (Inaudible - beginning of tape).

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: ... (Inaudible) part of the outfit that was serving under the commander, commander chief of (indistinct) Nyanda.

CHAIRPERSON: What - I didn't get the name of the commander?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Siphiwe Nyanda.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman that is the implicated person.  Now Mr Shoke could you describe your position from 1985 onwards?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I can say I held different responsibilities at different times, but however I was part of the collective that was based in Swaziland under Siphiwe Nyanda and responsible for the Transvaal.  Thank you.

MR LANDMAN: Does that appear in the ANC's submissions too?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: That's correct.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman I wish to refer you to the ANC's second submission to the TRC.  That submission has various parts and part of that submission is headed "Appendix 1 - ANC Structures and Personnel, 1960 - 1994".  Mr Chairman on page 9 of that appendix - possibly if I can just refer to it at this stage and I'll ensure that copies of the relevant pages are made for the Committee in the course of the morning.  Mr Shoke have you got page 9 of that appendix before you?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Ja.

MR LANDMAN: A copy has been given to you.  Now the sub heading there is "Regional Politico-Military Councils, 1983 - 1985", it's under paragraph 5.8.  Do you see that?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: (Indistinct).

MR LANDMAN: And further down the page there's reference to "Transvaal Urban".  Do you see that?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Exactly.

MR LANDMAN: Would you read that out?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: "Transvaal Urban lead by Siphiwe Nyanda, Shilo Mthau (?) and Solly Shoke.

MR LANDMAN: And you are the third person Solly Shoke, is that you?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Exactly.

MR WAGNER: Mr Chairman sorry, may I interrupt.  I have in my possession a document, it's called "Further Submissions by the ANC" dated the 12th of May 1997.  Is it this document that Mr Landman is referring to?

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman I, the first page of my document I'm referring to in fact has that title as well, yes.  Mr Chairman I can just make the point that I down loaded this from the Internet so it's possible that the page numbers and all the Appendices which appear on the Internet might not be part of Mr Wagner's bundle.  If that's the case then I can make copies for him.

MR WAGNER: Mr Chairman no I think I will cope.  I may add for the record that Mr Landman this document from page 34 onwards, the second part of those annexures headed "ANC Structures, 1960 - 1994" and I assume that the page 9 you are referring to will be somewhere in here and I'll try and find it.

CHAIRPERSON: We'd be obliged to you because I've got a copy of the same document as you and if you could give me the page reference?

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman could I then proceed and I'll get back to the documents and provide the Committee with the page references?

MR WAGNER: Mr Chairman sorry, the specific reference I find on page 49 at the top, where it is said "Transvaal Urban" and then the names, inter alia that of this applicant, page 49.

MR LANDMAN: Thank you.  May I proceed?  Mr Shoke what were your responsibilities as part of the command structure of Transvaal Urban?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I think like I said I had different responsibilities at different times.  It was involved in training people politically, militarily and otherwise, ensuring the lines of communication between the leadership and the cadres on the ground and other related activities.

MR LANDMAN: When you talk about training people politically, could you elaborate on that?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I think it is a known fact that the ANC emphasised more on grounding it's cadres politically before it could engage them militarily and it was politics that guided our arms struggle and even the choice for targets.  We therefore had to ensure that a person understand clearly the ANC policies before he could be sent into operation.

MR LANDMAN: How important was it to the ANC and MK that the operatives were fully educated as to what targets were legitimate and what were not?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: In the first submission dated August 1996, I refer you to page 51 of that submission where the ANC in fact reaffirmed at the (indistinct), reaffirmed in fact, what it called legitimate targets.  Page 51 of the first submission.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Shoke could you read that out?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: "The conference reaffirmed ANC policy with regard to targets considered legitimate, that is SADF and SAP personnel and installations and (indistinct) installations and infrastructure, but the risk of civilians being caught in crossfire when such operatives took place could no longer be allowed to prevent the urgently needed all-round intensification of the arms struggle.  The focus of armed operation had to achieve towards striking directly at the enemy personnel and the struggle had to move out of the townships to the White areas".  Thank you.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Shoke could you deal briefly with the reasons behind the ANC's policy that the struggle should be extended beyond the Black areas into the White suburbs or what would formally be known as White areas?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I would like you also to refer you to page 31 in fact of the main submission.

CHAIRPERSON: 30?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: 31 of the main submission by the ANC.

MR LANDMAN: That's the first submission?