Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

ANTON PRETORIUS: Negative. Honourable Commission and I think that question can also be put to Colonel Bosman, whether he would ever tell me whose phones were tapped.

MR MAKANJEE: You see, I have a problem with that answer because I'm sure that when Mr Bosman testified he said: "If someone required a phone to be tapped they had to get permission from the head of the unit, who would then instruct him to get the Post Master General to get his contact to tap the phone.
 Now the question is, you were the head of the unit, so obviously if anybody wanted a phone line tapped they would have to request this from you? Or are you saying that Mr Bosman in giving evidence was incorrect in what he related to us?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission, I don't think the honourable gentleman has it correct now. Mr Bosman merely referred to the Intelligence Unit, that was the case with them. You must remember one thing, there was an Intelligence Unit and there was a branch office, there was an Investigation Unit and there was Mr Bosman.
 If I had a request, for instance I wanted to tap Mr Kemp's telephone then I had to come up with the written requests and take it to Bosman, Bosman then checked it and he then sent it through the normal channels he commanded to Pretoria in the same way Mr Watermeyer acted. 
 But Mr Watermeyer didn't know which phones I requested and the other way around. The only one I know that people were generally aware of was that of Mrs Winnie Madikizela Mandela because I saw the copies of those things.

MR MAKANJEE: Now being the head of the Intelligence Gathering Unit, you concentrated specifically on big matters or major activists, would that be correct Sir?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Honourable Commission like I have already told you, as far as I'm concerned the Intelligence Unit was merely interested in the revolutionary aspect. It is true that there were other activists which we paid attention to, such as the actions of the UDF or the Mass Democratic Youth Movement, Cosatu as it became known later on.
 There were certain people who were more prominent than others who enjoyed attention which is true.

MR MAKANJEE: Just a few more questions, Madame Chair.
 Okay let me just be more specific sir. What I am actually trying to find out is whether to the best of your knowledge, were you aware whether Doctor Asvat's phone was tapped at any stage?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Negative. Honourable Commission I was not aware of that. It could be, but I didn't do that, at least I didn't put in the application for that.

MR MAKANJEE: So I then assume that you would have no information regarding the death of Doctor Asvat, would that be correct?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Unfortunately, Honourable Commission I have no knowledge. I am aware of the death of Doctor Asvat but I have no information to help the Commission. I don't know whether he is finished but can I just get a further two minutes? It is very hot in here but I just quickly have to leave the chamber for a while.

YASMINE SOOKA: We'll adjourn until you come back.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ANTON PRETORIUS: ...[no sound] years in Soweto.  The name Themba Mabotha, I really cannot remember but the name Themba, I can remember was on - there was something about him on the telephone conversations but whether it was Themba Mabotha I don't know.

MR HUGO: What did you hear on those?

ANTON PRETORIUS: It was about movements, actually I'm just making a general statement, I'm trying because where I sit I cannot remember what that Themba said. I can maybe say yes or no if you could refresh my memory.

MR HUGO: You see I also don't know, I was trying to determine what you know. So you say you can't remember?  Let me tell you what Colonel de Kock testified. He said that this Themba, that one of his excuses was that Winnie Mandela used him as a sex slave which I didn't believe initially but Captain Pretorius told me that he listened to it and he described Mabotha as a man of olympic standards in that respect, who left no woman unsatisfied.

ANTON PRETORIUS: It's perhaps possible that I could have said that to Mr de Kock. I was there on the farm for a couple of times and during the listening to Mrs Mandela's tapes it was so that sometimes you noticed some things that were strange or funny and some of her relationships with various people came out from the tapes.

MR HUGO: Can you remember?

ANTON PRETORIUS: Yes I can remember. I don't want to say those were my exact words but I did say something like that to de Kock.

MR HUGO: Do you remember it now because just now you didn't remember it?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I can remember that I told Mr de Kock about Mrs Mandela, her love activities whatever but I don't remember whether I said it was Themba Mabotha, maybe I just said Themba.

MR HUGO: You see you were here at the hearing, you must have heard it already and that didn't refresh your memory did it? That didn't refresh your memory?

ANTON PRETORIUS: No, it didn't.

MR HUGO: I just find it strange that now suddenly I've given you the chance to say what you remember and now all of a sudden you remember it better.

ANTON PRETORIUS: As I said, I asked you to refresh my memory on which aspect, there were different MK things that I could Mr de Kock about, that's why I said: "Refresh my memory".   It is true that I did probably say to Mr de Kock about Mrs Mandela's love relationships with persons but I don't remember.  If Mr de Kock said that I said Themba Mabotha, then I'll accept it like that at this stage.

MR HUGO: Thank you Chair, I have no further questions.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr du Toit?

MR DU TOIT: Thank you Madame Chair, only a few aspects. Mr Potgieter, I would like to refer you to paragraph seven of your statement, one specific sentence.  At the bottom of that page where you said that you weren't personally aware of any informers who were specifically associated with Mrs Mandela or the football club,
"with the exception of one person who came to my attention after he informed the branch that there were two MK members in his house."
Some questions, did you become aware of this information before the action that afternoon?

ANTON PRETORIUS: No, I did not. Can I please explain how I came to know his name?

MR DU TOIT: That will be the next question.

ANTON PRETORIUS: I was at the Protea offices that day.  If I remember well, I think I heard over the radio of the incident. Someone at the Protea offices and I really don't remember who, asked me to go to the scene where the shooting had taken place to see if I could help on the scene because during such a scene it has in the past happened that terrorists have come back and I didn't know whether there were two, three or four. I just knew that there had been an incident and that Pretorius had been killed.
 When I got to the scene I looked through it - and I knew that you would ask this question, the name I remember is Colonel Piet Grundling, I don't know if I'm wrong but that's the name I remember. He said to me - no sorry Stony Steenberg can confirm this, he came to us and asked us whether we could take Jerry Richardson to the office because he was an informer. 
 At that stage Jerry Richardson was sitting in the back of a police van and I took him back to Protea police station where he admitted to me that he was an informer, that he had made the call to say that there were two MK members in his house, that Mrs Mandela brought the first terrorist and that Mbuse brought the second one. 
 And after he had told me that then I was already at the Protea office where I handed him to somebody, I don't even remember whom.

MR DU TOIT: This information that he gave you, did you place that on record somewhere?

ANTON PRETORIUS: I think it was already known. I saw Colonel Potgieter's stuff and he was the head of investigation. I think he was aware of it because Richardson made the same allegations to him as he did to me.