Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-14

MR KAHANOVITZ: When did, Peaches was murdered?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do you know when he was murdered?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I think it was early in 1991, or 1992, I am not certain.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do you know who murdered him?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, unfortunately not.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, are you aware of a project involving Jay Naidoo?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Not at all.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Are you aware of a project involving Essa Moosa?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Also not.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Are you aware of a project involving Andrew Boraine?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, not at all.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But isn't it your own version that after the Omar project was abandoned, one of the people that you were looking into, was Andrew Boraine?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I have never testified to that effect.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Might I just have a minute to find the place?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I cannot recall the name in the evidence, before us, being mentioned prior to now, the name of Andrew Boraine, but you may have a look.  I might have heard it, but forgotten about it, but it doesn't ring a bell to me at these proceedings.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, I know it hasn't been mentioned.

MR MARTINI: There was a similar name, Mr Commissioner, I think relating to the letter that was addressed, allegedly addressed to, before the elections?

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, that was Alex Anthony.

MR MARTINI: Anthony, that is ...

MR KAHANOVITZ: It is at the end of his statement, I am not sure which statement.  Maybe, just not to waste time, can I just reserve on that name in so far as it turns out to be necessary?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Allan Boesak?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kahanovitz, are we going to go through the whole list of CCB operations?

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, I am only dealing with names that are mentioned in the statements that are before you, with the purpose...

CHAIRPERSON: No, you may proceed, I was getting a bit worried that - single CCB operation, we might be here for weeks.

MR KAHANOVITZ: An Attorney from Natal called K. Nhlaba, Mr Justice Harms found that there was a conspiracy to kill him?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I do not know about that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Anton Roskam, Mr Justice Els found that Ferdi Barnard and Calla Botha had burnt his car?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I do not know of the project, but afterwards I became aware of that evidence.  It was never discussed with me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: It was part of Region 6, one of Region 6's projects, correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot confirm that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did you have knowledge of a plan to infect the water supply of a refugee camp in Windhoek with cholera bacteria?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Not at all.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Right.  Now, Chappie Maree, which was his province, which province was he allocated?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Natal vicinity.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, if we look at all the facts that have been placed before us, he did nothing in Natal?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Not that I know of.  Maybe Mr Burger or Mr Maree himself can comment on this.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well, according to Mr Maree he did nothing in Natal?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Then it is probably so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You think that is probable, in the whole time that he was in the CCB, even though he was responsible for the province of Natal, he did nothing?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is possible.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why is it possible?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: If you are telling me that he did nothing, I do not know what he did, I do not know what projects he worked on.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But Mr van Zyl, you know, you have given us evidence about the general modus operandi of the organisation, you talk to your colleagues from time to time, you no doubt discuss your successes and your failures.  You are telling me that Chappie Maree at no stage during the entire period that you were in this organisation, mentioned to you anything that he had done in Natal?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I confirm, he never told me anything.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Is that because he was working in Namibia the whole time?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I do not know.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You don't know?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I do not know.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Calla Botha, which province was he responsible for?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Transvaal.  The old Transvaal.

MR KAHANOVITZ: We know he burnt Mr Roskam's car and we know that he was driving the vehicle at the time that David Webster was assassinated, because that is what was found in S v Barnard, even though he hasn't applied for amnesty in relation to either of those incidents.
	Apart from those two incidents, are we to infer that Calla Botha did nothing else in the province of Transvaal throughout the entire period that he was in the CCB?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I have no knowledge of projects that Botha was involved with.  I gave evidence regarding his involvement with the explosion at the Early Learning Centre, where he rendered some aid, that is what I know.

CHAIRPERSON: Just remind me, Mr van Zyl, Mr Evans' operation, whose was that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Chap Maree's initially.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Weren't there meetings held where your superiors said "we are incredibly dissatisfied with the low productivity levels of these people", I mean they are getting nothing done?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No Mr Chairperson, it was never discussed, but I think that you also have to understand that we as a Region, it was a new Region that only started in January 1989 so we were literally still in our baby shoes.
	For eight months of that year, we were operational.  In other words under the circumstances, one can accept that not much happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry when you say Maree was responsible for Natal and Botha for Transvaal, you for the Western Cape, how does it come about that Maree has a Transvaal operation and Botha not?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I do not know Mr Chairperson, I do not know how the projects were delegated.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I have no further questions at this stage.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KAHANOVITZ

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kahanovitz.  Mr Williams, do you have any questions you would like to put to Mr van Zyl?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I've got quite a few questions.  Mr Chairperson, is it possible to adjourn at this stage and maybe reconvene at quarter past one, because I would prefer not to be interrupted when I cross-examine.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want the full impact?  I don't know if lunch is ready?  Perhaps maybe if a quick enquiry could be made, it is no good adjourning now and starting at quarter past one ...

MR WILLIAMS: Otherwise Mr Chairman, if the food is not ready, then I will proceed now.  It depends.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it ready?  I will just wait for Meloney to tell me.  Can we adjourn for lunch?  Yes, in that case, it makes no difference whether we adjourn now or one o'clock for lunch, but we will take the lunch adjournment.  We will make it until half past one.
	I am told and I apologise, I only learnt yesterday, I thought that everybody got their lunch here.  We will adjourn till half past one.

MS COLERIDGE: All rise.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ABRAM VAN ZYL: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Williams?

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr van Zyl, in May 1988 when you left the SAPS to join the CCB, you were Lieutenant, not so?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you recall, what did you earn at that stage?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Approximately R2 000-00 per month, a little bit more.

MR WILLIAMS: Now, when you joined the CCB, we know that in one of your statements you say that you earned R3 500-00 and in another statement you say that you earned in excess of R4 000-00, in Bundle G you say that you earned R3 500-00 nett per month.  Would that be a fair reflection of what you earned, what you would earn at the CCB?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Plus minus R3 000-00.

MR WILLIAMS: Nett, that is after deductions?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It could be, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: And in addition, you received a motor vehicle allowance, or you received R30 000-00 to enable you to buy a motor vehicle?