bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Uitenhage — 1996-08-28

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, the questions that we do have, have been put to you by Ms Maya, and we do not have any more questions, but I would like to assure you that last week we did meet with political parties where they had been
UITENHAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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making submissions and one of the things that we observed was the questions that were put to them by parents, more so to the ANC organisation about children that hadn't returned from exile.  The ANC has assured us that they will cooperate with us in every way so much so that they will give us a list of the names of the people who died while in their camps and assured us that they will help us in answering peoples questions about what happened to their loved ones and make whatever information they can available to us, so we will handle your request accordingly and try and establish what happened to your brother, and why he did not return when everyone else returned.  
 We would like to assure you of that because there are many instances that we come across in these hearings, similar to this one of yours, where it becomes evident that some people come back and others don't and that there is no explanation from the organisation that goes to the parents to explain to them what happened, so we will try by all means.  Thank you very much.
 Thank you very much, you may go back to your seat.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Uitenhage — 1996-08-26

MRS NQIQHI: Yes, they live in Makulane. They left Mbangeli and I was going up Makulane when his mother called me on a Sunday. There were two and they asked me into a house and asked me to sit down and he was in jail - it was the mother who called me - and she said I should be with them until the husband comes back from Church and when he came back from Church he said he knew my husband, they are related as the Mtanda people, so I left thereafter.
 I went to my house and I explained this to my husband that they had called me. I had never seen Jacob, but he was about 19 years of age at the time and he knew no-one here in Uitenhage because he had just come, he was from a farm, that is what the mother said. I did not know this child.

MR POTGIETER: Mrs Nqiqhi before I hand over to the Chairperson, is there anything else that you want to add to what you have said or is that everything?

MRS NQIQHI: That is the lot, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any further questions?
 Mrs Nothembile Nqiqhi, we wish to extend our gratitude for bringing this evidence that is so painful about your son who was set alight to death, we therefore as this Commission sympathise deeply about this pain and suffering you went through. 
 We are determined to investigate further about this matter, especially about Jacob Saku, as to find out was the actual cause which led to the death of your son.
 In your statement you have made a request which is of great importance that this Commission should work hard, that incidents of this nature may not ever happen in future.
 I am sure this side of the table, this is really what is in our mind, that such incidents should never, ever happen in this country. 
 We also sympathise deeply and we promise that we shall do everything to the best of our ability to get the cause of this happening which is so painful. We thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Uitenhage — 1996-08-26

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Wendy Ramethe we wish to thank you for coming before this Commission to tell us 
this pathetic story. We remember the time when this incident occurred. We people who come from afar, we 
thought that when there was word that this incident was not connected with the political organisations, we 
thought that it would be the end of everything and what would be left would only be the accident you met 
together with Mrs Dlanjwa.
 It is very painful now to hear after the incident, you still became unhappy and you were harassed to 
an extent that you had to live a lonely life in your community. This causes much pain to us. 
 There is one thing that we have always said here that we should ask the policemen and soldiers 
whose names are mentioned frequently as perpetrators, that they should come forward before this 
Commission. We therefore would like to make another plea to these young men you have mentioned here, 
who are three in number, that they should come forward
forward. Their names are Mongezi (surname unknown), Themba Ngodwane is one of them and Billy Pemba 
to come and explain what exactly happened, to this Commission.
 The Human Rights Violation are not only done by policemen and soldiers or whites, they are just 
human rights violation whether they are done by people who call themselves comrades, so we therefore 
make this loud call to these three people who have been mentioned that they should come before this 
Commission whilst time permits. To come and tell us what exactly happened. 
 We know that this will not give back your true health, you have been damaged and you will enjoy 
ill-health until you die, but we still want to know the exact truth of what actually happened and also to know 
who was the perpetrator and also if they did this on political motivation they should state why they did it and 
who had sent them.
 We would also like to extend our sympathy to you and all the things that you have asked from us, 
we shall look into them and as I said to you earlier, there is one thing that we cannot restore to you and that is 
your good health. Thank you.
8

WENDY SIZEKA RAMATHE: UITENHAGE HEARING TRC/
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Uitenhage — 1996-08-28

NOKUZOLA SYLVIA RAWANA: I would like this Commission to investigate where he has been buried, whether he has really been buried, whether he was really killed, and whether he has really been buried, because it is possible that they are going to say to us that they buried him, they killed him and buried him, and UITENHAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
6 N RAWANA
I would like him to be found.

REV XUNDU: What else would you like?

NOKUZOLA SYLVIA RAWANA: Since is was only the two of us that were living together, he was the one who was working, and I would like the Commission to support me as well because he was the source of support and he used to support myself and my children.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Rawana, we have taken notice of your requests, we would like you to please take your seat.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Uitenhage — 1996-08-27

CHAIRPERSON: Our next witness is Nozipho Rina Vusani.

NOZIPHO RINA VUSANI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: How are you Nozipho?

NOZIPHO RINA VUSANI: I am fine.

CHAIRPERSON: In your statement you are going to talk about your brother Mgcineni Vusani who was shot on that particular day of the Langa Massacre, whose body was found after two weeks, after searching and searching since he left for the march to the funeral.  Can you please explain to us how old was he.  Was he at school or was he working.

NOZIPHO RINA VUSANI: He was working, he was not at school.  He was the only pillar at home.  My mother and father were not working.  He was the only breadwinner. He was working.

CHAIRPERSON: He indicated that he can be a real breadwinner permanently.  How did the whole thing affect you, his death?

NOZIPHO RINA VUSANI: It affected us most.  During that time, my mother was not well, and she suffered from a stroke.  My father was also affected.  In 1985 December, he died.  Both parents died, my father died in 1990.  It is only me and my sister, there is no one who is working.
UITENHAGE HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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CHAIRPERSON: Was this Mgcineni the only brother?

NOZIPHO RINA VUSANI: No, we had other brothers, but he was the only one staying at home.  The other brothers were staying outside.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is responsible for your mother's treatment?

NOZIPHO RINA VUSANI: She passed away in 1985.  It was for the first time that she experienced this thing.  We were from somewhere else, we had just relocated to Uitenhage.  It was very bad, it was tense.  It was the very first day that my brother had decided to go to a toyi toyi.  Unfortunately he was attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your request as a family?

NOZIPHO RINA VUSANI: Because there is nobody who is working now, I request that the Truth Commission do something, anything.

CHAIRPERSON: In the Jubilee Hall, was there any money that you received?

NOZIPHO RINA VUSANI: Yes, we got R4 000.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything else that you would like to add in your statement?

NOZIPHO RINA VUSANI: I request that something should be done for us to help us because we are not working, we are unemployed.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: I am going to hand over and see if there are any other questions.  Thank you very much.  We are going to adjourn now for lunch and thereafter we are going to take the others who are still here from the family victims.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS FOR LUNCH
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Umtata — 1996-06-20

MEMBER OF PANEL: Mr Chairman I would like to call Enide Jafta.  Mama, we would like to welcome you as the Commission.  You are one of the woman who come forward to the Commission who watched when your house was demolished by the police.  Many people have suffered as you have listened during these three days.  The name of your village has been mentioned before and I am sure today you are going to tell us fully about that evidence and we would also like to know from you how would you be reparated by the Commission.

ENIDE JAFTA: (Duly sworn in, states).

MEMBER OF PANEL: Thank you.  Over to you Mr Commissioner.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Reverend.

BONGANI FINCA: Mama Jafta I will be brief.  We heard here yesterday about young men who use to stay with you.  One of them was K K.  At that time we were being told about Maqekeza's story.  I would like you to please briefly tell us more about yourself, a brief background about yourself.  What are you doing for a living before you get into the real issue which was happened in 1986, at the beginning of 1986.  The day when your son Boy came together with these two young men, K K.

ENIDE JAFTA: Thank you Mr Chairperson of the Commission and the other Commissioners.  My name is Joyce Jafta, my maiden name is Hela.  Jafta is my husband's surname.  My father is
UMTATA HEARING EASTERN CAPE PROVINCE
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Max Jafta.  We have a business.  
 In 1986 my son Boy ...

BONGANI FINCA: Excuse me.  You said who is the business owner?

ENIDE JAFTA: It is my husband and myself.

BONGANI FINCA: I just wanted to clear that because in the interpretation it sounded like it was your father who said this.  Is this your husband, Jafta, who owns this business?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Umtata — 1996-06-20

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Mgojo.

KHOZA MGOJO: Mama Jafta, if I have heard you properly you said when this happened there are some of your clients who did not pay their debts from your shop.  Do you know the records, do have the records of these people?

ENIDE JAFTA: Yes, I still have my ledger books because fortunately when this happened my ledger books was, were in Umtata.

KHOZA MGOJO: Now seeing that we are now in this, enjoying this freedom, when you approached them and asked them to pay back what are they saying?

ENIDE JAFTA: Some are trying to pay back, but some said, no,
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they are not going to pay them because they were told by the police not to pay any debts because they were told that everyone who has a debt from that shop must not pay that debt.

KHOZA MGOJO: Did you approach any lawyers?

ENIDE JAFTA: We did claim to the lawyers, but we were never, we never got anything until now.  Even now I can say that they failed.  Even though we were not even charged this is what was a great wonder.

KHOZA MGOJO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mrs Jafta.  Your pain is my pain as well.  It is also the pain for this Commission.  It is indeed, it is because just you are the person that you are.  If you were another person you would say this case that had, that we put to Ntsebeza simply disappeared in his hands, but because you are the person that you are, you do not have a grudge.  I remember very well about the case that you are talking about now because at the time we did not have much time because at that time we were not allowed to continue with the case after six months.  So we ran out of time.  We are going to try again.  We will go back to Sangoin and ask if we can reopen this case.  I feel very weak right now because your claim still haunts me because we had it in our hands, but we lost it because of the things that were happening at the time.  I was one of the people who was taking care of this, but now I was arrested and I was banned as well, but now we will try and follow it up again.  Thank you.
UMTATA HEARING EASTERN CAPE PROVINCE
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Umtata — 1996-06-19

MALOLO GILIFISI JWAAI: Can I something? I only got the insurance from the Old Mutual because he was a member of the Old Mutual insurance. I think I got enough from the Old Mutual insurance.

CHAIRPERSON: My last question is, what did the authorities say in the Ciskei?

MALOLO GILIFISI JWAAI: I can't hear properly.

CHAIRPERSON: I am asking what did the authorities from the Ciskeian Government say to you about the death of your son?

MALOLO GILIFISI JWAAI: Nothing came from them.  I was always waiting for them to call me, but I was never called in.  That is why I thought that I should also come here to the Truth Commission.  I had a file which was kept at the magistrate's office.  As I understand it, we were supposed to have been called and compensated.  But each time when we go and find out about it, it is said that nothing has been received.  So I stated that then to these officials who are working at the magistrate's offices, I would like to have the file so that I can present it to the Commission. I was informed that no, the file was taken by the police and they took it to the Commission. I realise that they were just deceiving me.
I believe that I am the one who was supposed to take the file and bring it to you. I didn't think that the police could take that responsibility for me.  Then I requested that they should give me the particulars of this girl. I have all the particulars. That person is a sergeant now.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you very much, Mr Jwaai, for all the details that you have given us.  As the Commission we are prepared to make investigations. We would like to know the
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details surrounding the death of your son.    We would like you to please get your paper, the newspaper that you have kept for quite a long time, but we would like to have a copy. We would also give you the paper back.  If we need any further details from you we will contact you.  We will make contact with you so that we can get as much details as possible, when we are doing our investigations.  We have got the investigation unit, which would be busy trying to find out and dig out the information about the atrocities that took place previously.
 Thank you very much.
UMTATA HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Umtata — 1996-06-18

JAMES ZAMIWONGA KATI: In my opinion as I am here today, and as we are now can be regarded as liberated, to assist the Commission, I think we should be able to see to it that this should never, never ever be a White person who leads the country.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we can just conclude. We thank you very much Mr Kati for what you have given us. It is quite a long time as a Commission that we have been going around listening to all the detainees and the atrocities which were shared and experienced by the people, but what is very strange and amazing is that when we listen to these we are unable to control our emotions, again today the same thing applied. You have presented and put forward to us very painful details which made us to be moved. We would like to thank the Lord for presenting such people who are like you, who we can regard them as heroes. At times the young lions or the youth sometimes forget when they have done issues which cannot be forgotten. We know there were strong men, heroes and people who tried to liberate this country. Some of the mothers and fathers, they kept quite, they were just selfish and self-centred just taking care of their families, but people like you sacrificed for the struggle and freedom. Through the struggle we were liberated, we salute you for what you have done for us, we also salute the late King Sabata for his contribution so that your wife had a dignified funeral, we also salute the community of Ngobo who said they would never assist and support the people who were turning against you and refused to provide them with the tools when they wanted to dig at your place, we salute that community because they have shown solidarity, because they could show that they support you, that was a very brave contribution that they have done, but what has touched me most is that you request that there should be a tombstone in memory of your late wife, I think the Commission will try its utmost best to be able to meet or fulfil your wish. We salute you. Thank you. We know that it is very difficult to always ask for a break, it is very difficult for us to request that we should have a short break for fifteen minutes so that we can have a pause, and then we will meet at quarter past eleven again. Thank you.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Umtata — 1996-06-19

MEMBER OF PANEL: Mr Chairperson, can I please call upon Letitia Nonzame Langa and Zoleka Langa.

UNKNOWN: (Duly sworn, states).

UNKNOWN: (Duly sworn, states).

MEMBER OF PANEL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
TAPE 5 - SIDES A AND B - NOT INTERPRETED INTO ENGLISH/WRONG TAPE
UMTATA HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Umtata — 1996-06-18

MR SANDI: Do you have any details or anything that is left out?

NOQGILI VUYELWA LUPHONDWANA: No, I think I don't have anything to say further.

MR SANDI: Thank you very much Mrs Luphondwana for your evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Lupondwana, you said Rex was a person who was in Cradock, he was together and was growing up with Matthew Goniwe and the others. This Matthew Goniwe is it the one who was also murdered suspiciously, the one of the Cradock Four?

NOQGILI VUYELWA LUPHONDWANA: Yes he is one of them.

CHAIRPERSON: In the struggle what do you know about Rex's contribution?

NOQGILI VUYELWA LUPHONDWANA: What I know is, he served five years in Robben Island and when he was released he was under house arrest. He stated and gave information that he was recruiting ... (inaudible) trying his best to make the people realise what we were heading for. I was teaching them about the goals of the Organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: When he planned to go to Cradock what do you think was the purpose of his visit? Do you think he was involved in the struggle?

NOQGILI VUYELWA LUPHONDWANA: Yes, he never stopped, I believe that he was still taking forward the Movements idealogies. When he used to go to Lesotho you would know that the was going here and from place to place. He was very busy because I knew what he was doing is in Lesotho was the ideologies of the ANC so that is why I didn't probe when he didn't tell me what he was doing there. Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: From the Commission I would like to thank you in a very special way, sharing that traumatic memory surrounding your husbands mysterious death. You are a symbol of many women in this country whose testimonies will never die. You mentioned that following the death of your husband you were traumatised even by some people whom you trusted. We hope this experience of breaking the silence before the Commission is the beginning of re-healing and recovery. We hope you will confidently share with other women, educate and enlighten about the experience of losing your beloved one in a mysterious manner and you have left a challenge with this Commission to work hard and assist the Community of women of this Country who are living with a similar experience of not knowing what happened to their dear fathers and husbands. Thank you.

NOQGILI VUYELWA LUPHONDWANA: Before you close up, I would like to thank the Commission because I have got this opportunity today, I've been knocking at different doors trying to have the case of my husband to be opened, because I was disputing what is here. We call Dume - because he is Dumisane Ntsebeza, he is my lawyer, I would go this way and that way and he would try and prohibit me saying "you are going to get injured, you will be in trouble because you are facing Boers who are dangerous." I want to thank all the people who supported me during my painful experiences. Thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Umtata — 1996-06-20

ALBERTINA NOMFANELEKO MAKIWANE: I think it started during that period when Xola died.  He was found in the car when he was arrested there and another period he was found at Dalasile next to Nobo.  He was in that prison.  We would never know what happened to him and we would learn later on that he was arrested and he was in jail.  The other year he got lost and he disappeared and my younger brother was a clerk in his office.
 In 1987 they disappeared together with Mfeti.  That is why I tried to get records about Mfeti's disappearance.  He was fetched by his younger brother from Dalasile and then 
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they stated that they have just found him in the prison.

MS MAYA: Did you know why he was persecuted by this?

ALBERTINA NOMFANELEKO MAKIWANE: Nobody ever informed us.  He himself never explained why he was arrested.  He would just believe that it was just a way of harassing him.

MS MAYA: When did this end?

ALBERTINA NOMFANELEKO MAKIWANE: When they realised that he was mentally affected they stopped harassing him and during the period when Holomisa was in power he was never arrested again.

MS MAYA: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mrs Makiwane.  I think there is another question from Commissioner Finca.

BONGANI FINCA: Mrs Makiwane there would be a testimony from the African National Congress which will be coming to us as a Commission.  I would just like to get clear facts because I would like to get confirmation from you.  (Inaudible) by the ANC to come to the Transkei at the time with a clear authorisation from the ANC to, you said they were ordered to overthrow the Transkeian Government.  Is that what you are saying?

ALBERTINA NOMFANELEKO MAKIWANE: That is what I heard.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mrs Makiwane.  We will try to pay attention to everything that you have presented before us especially this last issue because we are still surprised and we do not know what happened and how was Tennyson killed.  We do not know who was responsible for his death.  We do not know whether the Boers were responsible for his death.  We do not know whether he was assassinated by other ANC members because the Boers say he was killed by the ANC members because they hated the fact that he came
back to the Transkei.  Now you have presented another story. UMTATA HEARING EASTERN CAPE PROVINCE
UMTATA HEARING EASTERN CAPE PROVINCE
Thank you very much.
UMTATA HEARING EASTERN CAPE PROVINCE
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Umtata — 1996-06-19

CHAIRPERSON: Dugard and Dumisani, we thank you as a Commission for the evidence that you have put forward.  We
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also hope that the investigation unit, the one that you are in, Dugard, will take steps to investigate. I also want to say something to Dumisani Mafo.  We have great hope that the policemen in the Eastern Cape Province is going to change from other provinces.  When we are in PE the MEC for Safety and Security in the Eastern Cape, came to the Commission to make his statement.  According about the violation of his human rights by the police.  Today we have a permanent secretary serving in the same department of the safety and security, also here today, to make evidence to this Commission, dealing with the violation of human rights. I think we are lucky, because in other places people usually cry out that the people who are the violators of the human rights are the high officials in the safety and security.  But today, the top managers of the police are the victims of human rights violations.   Now that gives us hope that the police in this province will be free from human rights violations.
UMTATA HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Umtata — 1996-06-20

MEMBER OF PANEL: Mr Chairperson we would like to call Mr Nelani to take the stand please.  Mr Chairperson Mr Nelani who is here in front of us is one of the men who comes from Umputi where the Chief Joyi and the others come from.  They were all exposed to persecution, prosecution and tortures as they were trying to liberate the country and they also tried to bring justice.  He is here also to give explanations of what use to happen at that time.  We would like to thank him for being here and we are very grateful that the people who come from the rural areas could come forward because some people from the urban areas believe that they are the only people who contributed to the liberation struggle.  They do not recognise the importance and the role which was played by the people from the rural areas.  This is because there were no newspapers and no people to publicise what they were doing.  We are very grateful for your presence here and we would like to know that the people from the villages were also contributing to the struggle and we should salute them for what they have done.  Your efforts are being acknowledged.  You can see that we rejoice today because we can claim that we are free.  We have the Government of the people.  That is why we say the Commission is very proud of you.  I would like you to stand up so that you can take an oath.
UMTATA HEARING EASTERN CAPE PROVINCE
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ZOYISILE NELANI: (Duly sworn in, states).

MEMBER OF PANEL: Thank you.  Over to you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sandi.

MR SANDI: Mr Nelani, as far as I can see from your statement you are going to talk about two things.  Firstly you are going to talk about things that happened to you.  Being arrested, being tortured in detention by South African Police and Transkei Police.  Secondly, you will be talking about the death of your neighbour, Mr Twalimfene Joyi, who was shot by a Traffic Officer here in the Transkei.  Is that correct Mr Nelani?

ZOYISILE NELANI: Yes, that is correct Sir.

MR SANDI: Which one would you like to start with?  Would you like to start talking about the first one that affects you directly or are you going to talk first about Mr Joyi's case?

ZOYISILE NELANI: Mr Commissioner I would like to talk about first Joyi's case.

MR SANDI: Excuse me Mr Nelani, my colleague here, Mr Ntsebeza, he is nudging me.  He says he knows much about this case, about the death of Twalimfene Joyi.  He is going to guide you about this case.  He will hand you over again to me when he is through with Twalimfene Joyi's case.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Nel, this case is quite a well known case.  Now, before we can go and dig in about Twalimfene it will be, we would appreciate it if you can just tell us more about Twalimfene.  Who Twalimfene was before you actually come into the day in 1976 when something happened to him.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Umtata — 1996-06-20

KHOZA MGOJO: Mr Nelani, I can see that you are, you have undergone quite severe ill treatment in your life.  The men that you are talking about, have you seen them again after your release?  What do you talk about, when you see them how do you feel and what do they say to you?

ZOYISILE NELANI: When I see them I do greet them especially this Martin Neba.  He was being beaten up by one man here in the streets of Umtata, but I try to defend for him, I defended him.  I did defend him.  The other one that I have not seen is this Lavisa.
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KHOZA MGOJO: In your view, after you have been ill-treated by these men and again you can still defend him.  What do you think that they may help, do you think that makes you feel?

ZOYISILE NELANI: I was not fighting against them personally, I was fighting against the system.  They were just tools being used by the system.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Sir.  Thank you for the statement that you have brought forward to us.  We also want to thank you to know that these pamphlets that we use to pick up here to know where they come from because we use to just see the pamphlets and we did not know who was responsible for them.  We realise that from your village, it looks like your village has more heros.  We are grateful to have men like you.  We also hope that the things that you have put forward to the TRC, we are going to look at them quite closely especially those that we have powers that we can take them to the Government.  We hope that the Government will also take a closer look at them.
 Now before you can step down I would like to announce that the people that I think that are the most important in this hall, the witnesses who came forward to the Commission coming from the rural areas just around Umtata and around Transkei as a whole, the time now for them has come for them to go back to relax in their own homes.  We are going to continue with the hearings, but I would like to show respect to them.  We must all stand when they go out.  We ask the Lord to please go with them, accompany them, protect them on the road until they get into their homes safe and well.  To show respect to them when they leave can we all please stand.  Thank you.  Can you can all sit now.  
UMTATA HEARING EASTERN CAPE PROVINCE
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Umtata — 1996-06-20

BUYISWA PATIENCE BHOTO: There is no theatre at Maclear so I presume that is why we were transferred to the nearest hospital in Umtata.

MS GOBODO: How many hospitals are there in Maclear?

BUYISWA PATIENCE BHOTO: I would like you to repeat your question please.

MS GOBODO: My question is that I want to establish why were you not able to be attended to in the same hospital.  Is it because it was a white, is it because it was the hospital which usually accommodated the white patients?

BUYISWA PATIENCE BHOTO: No, it is because there was not enough equipment to assist the people.

MS GOBODO: Is it not because it was for the whites only?

BUYISWA PATIENCE BHOTO: No, it is not.

MS GOBODO: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: We would like to thank you very much.  Thank you both of you.  We know that Maclear is known to some of us.  It is a small town and we know how oppressive it has always been to our people who are there at Maclear.  We are very glad and grateful to learn that some of you have also made sacrifices and your contribution is recognisable and acknowledged by everybody.  We promise that we will try to consider your wishes, but I would like also to mention the fact that as you want to be compensated we would like to explain the fact that the Truth Commission is unable to compensate anybody.  The only task and the duty of the Commission is just to collect data so that it can present its report to the State President.  It is then the State President who is going to make a decision.  What type of reparation has to be given to the people, it will depend on
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the amount which is available in the present fund.  If it so happens that some of the wishes cannot be met as the people want to, you should realise that it is not the Commission that has turned you down.  Thank you.  
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Human Rights Violation Hearings — Umtata — 1996-06-20

ADV SANDI: Mrs Noah just to make sure again on the question that Mr Ntsebeza has asked you.  Perhaps I will look like I am already repeating the same question, but in another manner.  I am going to try and do it like this.  Before your husband was arrested by the police, on the day of his arrest, did he ever have any conflict with the authorities, especially the police for political reasons because of his views in political matters?

NOKHWEZI NOCWAKA NOAH: No, I cannot remember.  I do not think this is so.

ADV SANDI: Where were these policemen from, in which
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department were they from?  Some usually wear uniforms, some are usually in the criminal investigations, some are coming from the Security Department.  The ones who arrested him do you know in which department they came from?

NOKHWEZI NOCWAKA NOAH: These ones were investigators.

ADV SANDI: Were they CID's?

NOKHWEZI NOCWAKA NOAH: Yes, they were called CID's.

ADV SANDI: Did you have any lawyer who was defending you at that time?

NOKHWEZI NOCWAKA NOAH: Yes, it was Themba Sangoni.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Mgojo.

KHOZA MGOJO: My sister, I have seen something in your statement.  You said Dr Mtimkhulo found that your husband drowned in the river and yet the post mortem says he died of pneumonia.  Did you get any death certificates for both these reports?  Did you get a certificate for the fact that he was drowned and another one stating that he died of pneumonia?

NOKHWEZI NOCWAKA NOAH: No, I do not know anything about this.  The person who use to look for these certificates was his brother.  It was my brother-in-law who use to look at these statements because at the time I was pregnant so I could not walk around too much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Noah, we accept the statement that you have put forward to the Commission and we thank you for it.  As we have said to your predecessors, we are going to investigate and find out more about the things that Dr Mgojo is talking about and more clarity from the lawyer who was defending your case.  If there is anything that we want from you again, we will contact you.  Thank you very much.
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Human Rights Violation Hearings — Umtata — 1996-06-18

MHLUPHEKI ELIAS NTSHINGA: I can mention one of the most painful things. They used to threaten me and state that they have already killed Aga and they were going to do the same with me. The person who used to say and always threaten me was this police who is now a Commander, a Commission Commander in Ngqeleni. He used to say they don't know why I am still alive, so they were going to kill me also.

MR SANDI: Did you believe it when they said they had killed Aga?

MHLUPHEKI ELIAS NTSHINGA: I didn't care, because I knew why he died. I didn't believe it but at the same time I couldn't turn my back and say I didn't know anything about it.

MR SANDI: How did you know that Aga has died?

MHLUPHEKI ELIAS NTSHINGA: There was another one with a beard, I have forgotten his name. Another policeman who is Ngogo was conversing with the others and he said, there were boys who will go along with Aga and they have killed one of them. So they were all laughing and were very happy, they were rejoicing and celebrating for what they have done. So they said I am the next because I was a big liar.

MR SANDI: Where you in the cells during that time?

MHLUPHEKI ELIAS NTSHINGA: Yes, I was.

MR SANDI: Where you there when Aga was buried, during his funeral?

MHLUPHEKI ELIAS NTSHINGA: Yes, I was already released so I was able to attend the funeral.

MR SANDI: What took place there?

MHLUPHEKI ELIAS NTSHINGA: I didn't see much what took place, but what I can state is that there were bullets which were shot at the victim, the bullet seemed to have gone through the back of the head right through the forehead. What I know is that he was severely beaten. I also know that they tried to cut his ear and during the time when he was released, they would ask me when he had already died, they would ask me where was he. I couldn't identify where he was. I was under police guard all the time. The police who came very early in the morning was together with Mathafeni and I believed them.

MR SANDI: Did you see when you were arrested because you had been keeping Aga? You were an ANC member since 1963.

MHLUPHEKI ELIAS NTSHINGA: Yes, it is so.

MR SANDI: Did you help with the others who wanted to cross the borders?

MHLUPHEKI ELIAS NTSHINGA: Yes, I used to help them very much. They would always ask me about all those who had disappeared. Kangulela was one of them and they would say I was a liar, I know where he is because they believed I was recruiting the youth.

MR SANDI: Is that all that you can say to us?

MHLUPHEKI ELIAS NTSHINGA: Yes.

MR SANDI: When I look at the statement that is presented here, you state what has happened to you and what has happened to Aga?

MHLUPHEKI ELIAS NTSHINGA: Yes, it is so.

MR SANDI: What would you like the Commission to do?

MHLUPHEKI ELIAS NTSHINGA: I don't need much except that the Commission should pay me. ....(tape ends)
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Umtata — 1996-06-20

MEMBER OF PANEL: The time that you have worked here, you have worked during a very difficult time.  The authority here at the time, people who use to be beaten up quite a lot, several times, but people still continued with the struggle.  You, particularly, you never turned your back on the struggle.  You had the opportunities to have a better life than you had before, but you decided not to do that and we thank you very much for that.  We are sure that today when you see, you tell yourself you did not fight for this freedom in vain.  Now, with those few words we salute you for giving of yourself for the struggle, your family and other wise.  Could you please stand so that you can take the oath.

MR SIGWELA: (Duly sworn in, states).

MEMBER OF PANEL: Thank you.  Over to you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will hand over to Pumla Gobodo who is going to guide the witness.

MS GOBODO: We welcome you honourable MEC.  We are very happy for you to come over so that you can give more details about the case that we have just talked about regarding Twalo.  I am going to ask Mr Ntsebeza so that he can be able to help us more about Twalo's case.  Then after that we can come and talk about your torture during 1968 and 1969.  I am just going to start so that I can finish off with the Twalo
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case.  Thank you.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Kabela I am very happy to see you again.  When I read your statement, then I remembered that I use to be tortured in East London and they use to ask me about you.  They use to ask me by Dulalokat.  They use to ask me about you.  I did not know that you were also arrested.  Thank you Kabela.  This man is also from Cala, is that so?  As a veteran in the struggle he use to say if somebody has been arrested for political reasons he use to open up files.  Please tell us more about Gwazo.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Umtata — 1996-06-20

MS GOBODO: Thank you Zola.

MEMBER OF PANEL: So, in other words Mr Twalo, what you are
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really saying is that among the things that we can do for you is to find out from Mr Ntsebeza himself more details about how did he get this information about your brother.  Perhaps he can tell us more.

ZOLA TWALO: Yes, that is correct.

MEMBER OF PANEL: You also mentioned Mr Sigwela's name.  You also said that he also is interested in giving evidence about this case.  Now, in short, according to your knowledge do you know what he is going to talk about?

ZOLA TWALO: Even though I have not met him personally, Ezra Sigwela, he is one of our family members, but in my suspicion I know that he does have knowledge about what happened.  Knowledge from inside the prison.  I think he could have knowledge about this.

MEMBER OF PANEL: Does Mr Sigwela know that you are going to talk about him today?

ZOLA TWALO: While I was in Bisho I did try to make contact so that I can speak to him, but his colleagues said, no, I cannot talk to him because he was very busy, but now I did submit his name to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in East London.

MEMBER OF PANEL: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Twalo, thank you very much for your story.  It is a rather painful story for losing your brother.  You have put it clearly in, quite briefly, but quite clearly.  Thank you very much, but when Mr Ezra Sigwela is giving his evidence later on today, I would please ask the respectable Commissioner to please include the fact that you have also mentioned this.  Alright, now so that the investigation unit had headed by the Dumisa Ntsebeza can be able to follow this up.  So that I can find out more about this case.
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 In fact, we are going to call Mr Sigwela so that he can be the first one after the break.  We are going to take a break now for ten minutes, ten to 15 minutes then we will return at 11 o' clock exactly.  
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Human Rights Violation Hearings — Upington — 1996-10-03

MR POTGIETER:  And is it correct that the last time that he was seen was in Prieska?

WITNESS:  Yes sir.

MR POTGIETER: Ms Mbatha I have got no further questions I am going to hand back to the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mary Burton?

MARY BURTON: Ms Mbatha, thank you for telling us about what happened to Headman.  It is very hard to lose a son and not to know what happened to him.  I wanted to ask you if you have other children and grandchildren?

WITNESS:  Yes I have got daughters, two sons and more grandchildren.  Headman used to work for me.

MARY BURTON:  Did Headman have children?

WITNESS:  No he did not have children.

MARY BURTON:  So he was the one that was looking after you at that time?

WITNESS:  Yes ma'am, my other sons would help as well.

MARY BURTON:  And now are you receiving a pension?

WITNESS:  Yes I receive pension.

MARY BURTON:   ... somebody staying with you?

WITNESS:  Yes there is a girl staying with me.

MARY BURTON: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you mamma.  We have no words to give you strength or to encourage you but let us hope that the Lord will strengthen you and encourage you.  May the Lord bless you and be with you mamma in all your pain, your struggles, your trials.  There are two things that bring so much pain in your story, that those who have hurt you did not even consider that you are a senior person.  They did not even say here is an elderly lady even though we are beating other people up, perhaps this senior person we should not.  This just goes to show that they did not see black people as people.  They did not differentiate between mothers and elderly people.  It was just black people and in the midst of all that your son still disappears.  It would be better perhaps if you knew that perhaps my son has died.  Now you don't know whether he has died, whether he is still alive, where is he, whatever happened to him?  The President Mandela has given us a job, a responsibility to help people such as you, to get answers for your questions.  We will try as much as we can.  Maybe we can get some answers.  Thank you for your contribution, the contribution your son made to the freedom of our country, the freedom that we have today.  May the Lord bless you.  May the Lord bless you all.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Upington — 1996-10-02

WITNESS:  Yes he was our helping hand because my parents were already old.

MR POTGIETER:  Has he got any children?

WITNESS:  He has got only one child out of wedlock, he is not staying with us.

MR POTGIETER:  A boy?

WITNESS:  It's a girl.

MR POTGIETER:   ... [Indistinct] old is she?

WITNESS:  I cannot tell you really but when Mbulelo passed away, she was just a baby of almost one year.  I cannot say precisely how old was the baby.

MR POTGIETER:  The baby, but this, the daughter lives with her mother at the moment, is that correct?

WITNESS:  Yes it is correct.

MR POTGIETER:  Now when Mbulelo was shot what was the situation like in the, in Paballelo?

WITNESS:  He was shot in Brownstraat.

MR POTGIETER:   ... [Indistinct] was the situation like, was there unrest or what was going on?

WITNESS:  I cannot say whether there was violence or not but it was just busy, a busy period of New Year and children were just happy and very happy, I cannot say.  Children were just singing and rejoicing.  It was not due to violence.

MR POTGIETER:  Okay.  Was Mbulelo involved in politics?

WITNESS:  He was just an ordinary person.  He did like being involved in the struggle but as to whether was he directly involved or not, I'm not sure because I wasn't accompany him all the time.

MR POTGIETER:   ... [Indistinct] saying that the police were trying to place restrictions on the funeral, telling you how many people should come and that sort of thing?

WITNESS:  Yes they were controlling, they were controlling the whole funeral as to what should happen and what should not happen.

MR POTGIETER:  Why did they tell you, why were they doing that?  Was it because of political situation or....

WITNESS:  I cannot tell you exactly what was the reason for their restrictions as to the number of people to attend the funeral.  I cannot tell you exactly.

MR POTGIETER:  Was there, or has the family approached any attorneys, any lawyers in connection with this incident?

WITNESS:  No, we never tried to consult lawyers.  We tried our self to ask our father to get to the attorneys but he, my father doesn't believe in that, in paying the lawyers.

MR POTGIETER:  Okay so there was never any claim or anything further, apart from this case where Oupa Links was involved there was no other Court case at all?

WITNESS:  There was never a follow-up Court cases.

MR POTGIETER:  Thank you.  I just want to hear if my colleagues have any questions for you.  Thank you, they don't have any.  I just want to thank you again for having come and bringing this case of your brother to the Commission.  We have taken note of the information that you gave and we will have to look into the matter to see what has happened, but the matter will enjoy the attention of the Commission and we will be in contact with you to tell you what we have found out about the matter, but thank you for coming.  Good luck.

WITNESS:  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Upington — 1996-10-02

MR POTGIETER: I just want to see whether any of my colleagues have any questions.  No.  Mr Yona thank you very much for your evidence.  We have taken cognisance of everything you have said, I can assure you that.  Thank you that you spoke so openly and thank you for your attitude that you not only talk about yourself and your own personal experience but that you also address the problems in the community in general.  The problems which have been there up from 1984 till, up to the present and the factors that you have referred to, the socio-economic factors are some of the factors who gave rise to these type of problems and things which happened in this area.  We have noted and recorded everything you have said.  We will come into contact with you and we have made a special note of the detailed way in which you described how this whole experience influenced you emotionally and how it influenced your health situation.  We will react to this and come back to you in future.  Thank you very much that you have come forward.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Upington — 1996-10-02

MR POTGIETER: Are there any questions from my colleagues?  I just want to repeat that our investigating unit have tried to establish what has happened to this shooting incident, what happened to you in 1992.  They have the case number but they told us the same story I have mentioned before namely that the records, the police records have been destroyed but like I have said previously, we will continue our investigations.  Thank you very much Mr Lizo.  It seems to me you have had many unpleasant experiences.  When you were still very young you had very negative experiences and above all, it was with the police who were supposed to be protecting you, and the police were more causing a threat to you than protecting you.  But we will further investigate the matter and we will keep in contact with you.  Thank you very much.