Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

MR GOOSEN: There are, however, other documents which are attached to the bundle which we certainly would wish to deal with at a later stage in this questioning.
Mr de Klerk the European Court of Human Rights has adopted the following approach to the concept of official tolerance, and I quote to you
"The term "official tolerance" means that though acts of torture or ill-treatment are plainly illegal they are tolerated in the sense that superiors of those immediately responsible, though cognisant of such acts, take no action to punish them or prevent their repetition, or that higher authority, in the face of numerous allegations, manifests indifference by refusing any adequate investigation of their truth or falsity, or that in judicial proceedings a fair hearing of such complaints is denied".
The Truth and Reconciliation Commission has received evidence of almost 1,200 acts of torture by the security forces. Security force members are responsible for more than 50% of the acts of torture where a perpetrator is known or identified by the deponent. Those responsible range from sergeants to generals and are spread across the - and the period is across the entire TRC mandate period. 42% of torture victims complained of torture on more than one occasion, a factor which suggests the torture of persons in custody is systematic and routine. 
Thousands of articles have appeared in the press throughout the TRC mandate period in which people complained about torture in custody. We have some extracts, at least two newspapers dealing with that type of reference in newspaper articles.
In 1973 the United Nations found substantial evidence of torture of detainees. 
In 1982 the Detainee's Parents Support Committee submitted a memorandum to the Minister of Law and Order containing over 70 affidavits containing allegations of torture in detention. 
In 1983 the Medical Association of South Africa - Report on Detainees, found that detention constitutes a health hazard for detainees. 
In 1985 the Association of Law Societies published a report in which it held that complaints of assault were not speedily investigated with sufficient care a an independently high level. 
In 1985 the Port Elizabeth Supreme Court granted an interdict to Dr Wendy Orr restraining members of the security police from assaulting detainees. The interdict was granted based on affidavits from over 150 detainees.
In 1985 the Institute of Criminology in Cape Town published a report in which 83% of 176 former detainees interviewed by the Institute complained of torture. 
Despite the overwhelming evidence of torture in detention no effective steps were taken to investigate or stamp out these abuses. Indeed the information gathered by the TRC indicates that the rate of torture during the 39 months of the state of emergency is more than double any other non-emergency period. 
How did the National Party regard these allegations at the time? And is the National Party guilty of tolerating torture?

MR DE KLERK: Mr Chairman the National Party is not supportive of torture. I reject it. It's wrong. And within my knowledge, if I think back, this issue was raised at times. We were given assurances that regular visits were paid to camps as visits to jails. I can specifically recall that, I think it was when I was already President, where a special new system of very regular visits by magistrates were instituted in order to ensure that there would be inspection and opportunity for people who have complaints to lodge their complaints. 
So within my recollection we had reason to believe firstly, that there were measures in place to assist in the prevention of this, and definitely within my recollection, I can't recall the date, I can't recall exactly when it was, there was a dramatic improvement of those measures in order to make sure that we will prevent that. Part of this was also, once again I can't recall the date offhand, allowing visits by the Red Cross and making it possible for outside monitoring organisations to visit jails and to visit places of detention in order to evaluate and to bring out reports. The very fact that all these reports have been brought out, I think substantiate the fact that there wasn't necessarily a cover-up.
I would also suggest that maybe steps should be taken, if it hasn't been taken by the Commission as yet to ascertain whether there were any prosecutions, either in court or departmental prosecutions against people who made themselves guilty of any transgressions against inmates or detainees. We know that it is a problem throughout the world, it is a problem in each and every justice system that at times detainees, suspects, are dealt with by security forces across the world in an unacceptable way. It actually forms the theme of almost every fourth American film that one looks at.

<UNKNOWN>: rom a number of amnesty applications received I must indicate, not necessarily where persons have applied for amnesty in relation to specific acts of torture, amnesty applicants indicate, as part of their motivation in their amnesty applications, that torture of detainees was regarded as routine and standard practice for security police members. 
How would you - and that would have been to the knowledge of senior members of the security police, also to the level of the headquarters of the South African security police, how would you explain that understanding of an amnesty applicant or members of the security police in the light of the view adopted by you about torture?

MR DE KLERK: I'm not exactly sure what the essence of your question is, could you repeat it please?

MR GOOSEN: Sir you have indicated that clearly it wasn't official policy from your point of view and where there were, certainly there were discussions held to try to deal with the problem of torture, from amnesty applicants, members of the security police, it appears that they regarded the torture of detainees as standard procedure. How does that fit in with the notion that, from an official point of view, the torture of detainees was actively combatted where it was found to exist?

MR DE KLERK: Well firstly I don't just accept the fact that it was standard procedure just because some people say it was standard procedure. The detainees at all times there was the realisation, we are now referring to detainees held without trial in terms of the emergency legislation, that they would have to be released rather sooner than later. And when they have been there too long I can recall in-depth discussions what must we do to bring detention without trial to an end to put these people back into their normal lives. Surely knowing that this was a temporary situation it would have been folly on anybody's side to think that they can do what they want to these people due to be released maybe in two weeks time, maybe in a month's time, maybe in two month's time? 
I therefore don't just accept the statement that it was standard practice. That it might be standard practice amongst some individuals, that is what I have been referring to is happening, and continues to happen across the world. We were at all times under the impression that many claims that torture had taken place were on the other hand propaganda. We were told that detainees were under orders from the ANC to also complain of torture. I am not asking you to accept that that was true, but that was the information which we were also given at times when matters like these and other similar matters were discussed.