Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, but once you mentioned Kemp, the police go to Kemp and Kemp says but I gave the list to Mrs Derby-Lewis.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, but Mr Chairman, they were aware of Kemp's involvement in any case, because it was recorded in my  wife's diary which the security branch showed to me during the interrogation.

JUDGE WILSON: So they were aware when they were interrogating you, that the list had come from your wife, they had seen that in her diary.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Correct.

JUDGE WILSON: But you told a story about how you put the names on computer?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That was part of the - that was part of the sparring, Mr Chairman, as I said, to protect her.

JUDGE WILSON: You have just told us that they knew that she gave you the list.  How were you protecting her, from what?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, at the time that I was interrogated they didn't know that.

JUDGE WILSON: I thought you have just told me that they showed you her diary which showed that the list, she had got the list from Kemp?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No.

JUDGE WILSON: And that is why you mentioned Kemp's name?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, they didn't indicate that, they just showed me the diary and one of the items in the diary was "A Kemp - list."

JUDGE WILSON: So you knew they had a diary from your wife saying "A Kemp - list."

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And you still thought you were going to protect her?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well, Mr Chairman, I had to try.

JUDGE WILSON: Why not tell the truth?  Once you start making it look like this they would be very suspicious. If you simply said my wife is a reporter, I made use of a list she had of addresses.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, let me say that this statement which we are referring to, is the statement which was finalised as a result of many days of interrogation by the security branch and this was the statement which the security branch were prepared to accept, in terms of obtaining a confession from me and having it signed by a magistrate, which they were going to use against me. There was obviously sufficient in this, this statement, to convict both Kuba Walus and myself.  And when I finally presented this in the form that they wanted it, because they came with information themselves during the interrogation that they wanted included, which I included, when we came to this situation, that was the last statement.  And in fact, this was the only statement I was aware of in terms of the security police investigation was concerned, but I was assured that it was irrelevant and could never be used against me as evidence.  But this was sufficiently satisfactory to the security branch that they were prepared to accept it, have it signed in front of a magistrate and to use it as a confession from me.

GEORGE BIZOS: Your answer to a question by one of the learned Judges, that by saying that
"Kuba was not aware that other names was written to cause confusion, he did not know nor ask why they were there".
Once it was known that your wife had anything whatsoever to do with the list, far from protecting your wife, you were really arousing the suspicions of the security police, on an ordinary reading.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not competent to answer the question, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: But of course, we do not have to rely really on your word or let us remind you of what your wife said in paragraph 73 in R4, page 160.  Do you see paragraph 73?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I do.

GEORGE BIZOS: "In January 1993 I telephoned Arthur Kemp at The Citizen in Johannesburg and said I was going to send him a list of names and I wanted a description of their houses and their addresses."
Do you see that she says that she asked for a description of their houses and the addresses -
"This was done after much serious thought and because Clive and I felt that unless something dramatic was done the country would be controlled by Communists.  Clive and I therefore highlighted the names of the people whom we believed to be the enemies of South Africa.  Certain names were added to the list I sent to Arthur, such as Justice Goldstone and certain newspaper people.  Goldstone's address was needed to determine where he lived, because I wanted to do an article as to how he, who helped to break down the Group Areas Act, was now living in a White area far away from the results of his 1984 Govender judgment. The journalists' addresses were requested because I wanted to write to them about their attitude towards this (indistinct). I asked for Mr Pik Botha's address because there was strong rumours that he owned property overseas and this had been reported in the Afrikaner newspaper and perhaps the company which owned his property, if indeed it was the case, would be the same company. The people on the list whom I believed to be the enemies of South Africa, were the participants in Operation Vula, who were never prosecuted by the government and members of the ANC and South African Communist Party.  Some of the names were Maharaj, Hani, Mandela, Kasrils, Naidoo, Ramaphosa, Slovo.  Clive and Kuba decided on Chris Hani to be eliminated because of his particularly brutal record and his position as chairman of the South African Communist Party, which they believed never should have been unbanned."
This is what your wife wrote down and signed and took an oath that it was correct.  
	Now I am not asking you to pass judgment on the correctness or other, or anything else about your wife's statement.  But I want you to please look at Annexure, page 30, the description of Mr Mandela's house and the contents of your wife's statement. Does Mr Mandela - inclusion of Mr Mandela's name on the list, is it there because in order to confuse people or because he was one of the intended victims to be eliminated?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, you are asking me to comment on why this information was included?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I can't answer that, Mr Chairman, because I didn't draw up the list.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And I didn't put that information in there or ask for it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you agree that you and Walus made Hani number three?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I agree that we numbered him three, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Therefore, there must have been a one and a two. (Laughter).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman  ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: Who was number one?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I am quite sure that I have already explained this in previous testimony, but as I said  ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: Who was number one to be eliminated, Mr Derby-Lewis, it is a simple question?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Number one on this list, Mr Chairman, on the page marked A1, which is not clear from this document which Mr Bizos has, the pages marked, according to the original document A1, was Nelson Mandela.

GEORGE BIZOS: I am going to repeat the question and  ... (intervention).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I heard the question.

GEORGE BIZOS: ... I think that it would be in your interests to try and come to terms with the question, Mr Derby-Lewis. If Hani was the number three choice for assassination, who was number one choice for assassination?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I have already testified that Hani was not number three choice for assassination, he was number one choice for assassination, for the mere fact that we knew that he would be the target, the elimination whereof would lead to our achieving our objectives, and I said that on previous testimony.

GEORGE BIZOS: Your wife mentioned Mr Mandela's name in paragraph 74 of her statement.  Is he to be included as the names that were included in order to confuse anyone or because he was one to be eliminated?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I can't be expected to stand responsible for what my wife has allegedly said.