Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1992-05-12

GARY JOHN KRUSER: On that corner I had to make an evaluation but I think every individual on that corner, if at any stage he felt that his life was being threatened, I think he had the right to take a decision.  I mean in any combat situation you have a commander but I think every trained security officer on that corner had to right to make an assessment of himself.  If he saw a man aiming a gun at him, I didn't think he needed to wait for me to give him an order.  Every individual had a right to take a decision based on the facts in front of him.

MR HUMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUMAN

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] to put to this witness?

MS PATEL: No thank you Honourable Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: This is the telephone conversation between Mr - Brigadier Gouws and the late Commissioner Leonard Radu, page 105.  It was suggested to you that the late Commissioner Radu made a threat that you would take the law into your own hands.  I want to read to you two or three sentences there and ask you whether you consider that a threat and in the middle of the first paragraph:  "And I said to Van Dyk this morning if there is no one here who will take the law in our own hands - we will take law in our own hands and we don't want to do that."
Do you perceive that as a threat?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think what Commissioner Radu was saying that if there's no one protect us we'll protect ourselves.

GEORGE BIZOS: Brigadier Gouws in the middle of the last paragraph
"Quite obviously if there is a direct attack on your people you can react to that and you can do what is necessary to safeguard the lives of the people on the attack but please I must urge it - do not take the law in your own hands as I have said we have already arranged that police should be deployed around your offices.  Quite obviously in the political conflict situation of the moment it is possible that your offices may be a target of attack and we will see to it that you are protected as well as we can."  and then he says what their ...[inaudible].  Now you said that you did not accept the learned Judge's finding that there was no information that Shell House would be attacked.  Did the late Commissioner Radu have the sort of apprehension that is described in this conversation and was he given this assurance about police protection as far as you know?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: As I said, he informed me the Sunday and again on the Monday that we would get police protection and when I left his office before going to issue firearms the last thing he indicated that he would continue to because I think he was going to phone someone in Pretoria because it seems like we're not getting luck in Johannesburg itself.  But this thing is also late in the afternoon when I think quite a few marchers passed by ten o'clock, at least two of the groups, if not three had passed at that time already.

GEORGE BIZOS: The last sentence under L on page 106 - "The police must understand the situation that in the case of protection we are forced to be deployed outside."  Do you know whether this was the true belief of the late Commissioner Radu?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That is correct - that's how we discussed it that I would deploy people outside.

GEORGE BIZOS: And then the last sentence on page 106 - "So a specific request - get them inside the building and I will see to it that police are deployed in the vicinity of Shell House that also will account for the PWV offices."  Did that trust or hope or anything similar to it ever materialise?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: The same Brigadier Gouws was inside Shell House when this happened and there was no police around securing Shell House.

GEORGE BIZOS: Even though this promise was made at ten o'clock, one hour and thirteen minutes before?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: And finally the last sentence other than the greetings on page 1 of 7:  "Okay, I will see to it that there is a policeman in the vicinity of Shell House as soon as possible, okay, okay, very well, Leonard."  Did that materialise?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: It did not materialise.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now very briefly, I don't want you to take a long time about this, you've been accused of not making full disclosure and the only thing that has been drawn to the Committee's attention is what you did not say in your affidavits that were made during September, October - September '95 and October '96 during the period of the investigation and you've said that you did not give the names of the other guards or your comrades because you feared for their lives.  What was the relationship between the police investigation team and the Attorney General's office whilst Mr Klaus von Lieres von Wilchau was the Attorney General - what was the relationship between your attorney, you yourselves and the ANC during that period.

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I would say a probably very harsh trial towards us.  I can give reasons.  I also - I remember one day, I don't have the dates clearly in my mind - I accompanied my legal people, Caroline, I think Danny Burke was also with us to John Vorster Square to make statements to the police because we were asked by the leadership to go and make statements to start this whole process of co-operation which the president made public.  While making the statements, the officers who were recording added things to our statements which we did not say and our legal representatives objected to them putting things in our statements which we're not saying.  There was a very. very hostile exchange between our legal representatives, ourselves and the police.  Eventually the police advocate had to come into the situation and try to resolve it.  I think it was at this stage that the agreement was then reached by the police advocate that we only had to make statements about the gist of what happened and not specifics.
	Additional to that the request from the ANC was always that this issue should be investigated entirely but if you look at the headings of the letter sent to us by the A.G.'s office it was always "Eight Accounts of Murder at Shell House" and that gave us a very clear indication that they were not interested at all in investigating the whole event of the day but taking us as accused from the very beginning of this thing.  You can look at even in hindsight, you can look at it from each and every statement which was made to the police - it was never produced as evidence - until the Judge had to call for it.  I mean there's so many incidents we can record of hostility of the police towards us in the investigation.  They went to my secretary and lied to her to get information saying that I said they must give information.  They came to me telling me other guards had made statements.  These were junior police officers who were in charge of investigating, who were doing these type of things.  I mean, there was just complete hostility during the whole investigation team and our lawyers and the ANC.  Every information we gave them was leaked to the press.  As soon as a statement was put it, you could read it in the newspaper the next day.  I mean, could we trust this sort of investigation, both from the Attorney General and the police?  It was very clear that we were still being seen as the enemy even though the new era has dawned and sometimes I think it still in that way today.

GEORGE BIZOS: If you had given the names of the guards that had shot or given specific information where these names could be obtained, what did you think might happen to them?