Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1997-02-18

ADV VAN ZYL: Mr Chairperson I believe that copies of the statement that Mr Knipe made at the inquest as well as a copy of his evidence at the Weaver trial is available.  I would also like to point out that the detective Warrant Officer Welcome Mbele that he refers to his statement that was his partner at the time, at Murder and Robbery and should not be confused with Mbelo who's evidence the Commission heard in camera some while ago.  Thank you.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: I would just like to point out that I will now hand the chair over to Mr Dumisa Ntsebeza.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you Commissioner Wildschut for holding the fort in my absence.  I have taken note of your  remarks advocate Van Zyl.  Any questions that are going to be put to this witness oh! I am made to understand that advocate Potgieter is going to be leading the questioning of this witness - advocate Potgieter.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson, Mr Knipe are you comfortable.

MR KNIPE: Pardon?

ADV POTGIETER: Are you comfortable?

MR KNIPE: I don't like the lights in one's face no.  I find it very disturbing.

ADV POTGIETER: I see that you are sweating profusely.

MR KNIPE: Because of the lights.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Order - order please.

ADV POTGIETER: Well I am not - I got some colleagues with some medical background perhaps they can be of some assistance if it's necessary.  But are you able to proceed at this stage.

MR KNIPE: Perfectly.

ADV POTGIETER: Good, could we just first of all try to perhaps understand and if possible meet your difficulties as it is pointed out in your evidence in chief about having to appear at these proceedings.

MR KNIPE: I have no problems in appearing before these proceedings.  I have a problem in the manner in which I was subpoenaed to appear before the proceedings.

ADV POTGIETER: Ja.

MR KNIPE: The connotation, the perceptions that have been created is that I committed murder that was what the [indistinct]  articles that were written in our daily newspapers, was that I was one of the seven people who were into confess to the murders of seven young men, that is the unfortunate perceptions that went out because of the actions of the Committee.

ADV POTGIETER: Well I am quite surprised speaking for myself, perhaps I haven't read the media reports that you are referring to but I am quite surprised to hear that.

MR KNIPE: Well I can assure you they are there.

ADV POTGIETER: There was an allegation that you are linked to the murder of these seven people.

MR KNIPE: Quite correct - it appeared in the Burger.

ADV POTGIETER: And are you somehow linking the Commission to that - to those allegations.

MR KNIPE: No I am not linking the Commission to it, I am saying that the manner in which I was brought before the Commission created this perception within the press.

ADV POTGIETER: Well Director you've been around for some time I mean you have been a law man in this part of the world for many-many years.

MR KNIPE: That you for the compliment of being a law man mnr Advocate.

ADV POTGIETER: Or perhaps more correctly a law person.  And I mean you know - you know subpoena's I mean you know how it works.

MR KNIPE: I have never - I have never subpoenaed a witness without having an interview with him, never in all my 31 years as a policemen have I ever interviewed a witness or not interviewed a witness and subpoenaed him except in the case on occasions with the press when they will not answer questions that we have to resort in 205's - but at least we've given them the decency of speaking to them beforehand.

ADV POTGIETER: Do you - do you understand that there is this principal of transparency about the work of this Commission and that the concept of doing our work publicly - to share the information that we obtained and to try and give answers to people who are questing for some information, is really an underlying sort of bottom line in a way for the work of the Commission.
So whatever we do, I mean we got the public there, we are linked up to - and hopefully soon again to the radio broadcast which reaches millions of our people in the country, we got the television present at our proceedings.  Unfortunately we've got these lights going with that and that's - we must apologise to you for the discomfort that, that causes.
 But that is - that is how it is - this is the - it's quite a unique process, we've never seen it in this country before and it's so important to have these things in public and to get you to a platform like this so that you can speak and your colleagues can speak and the families of the victims can hear and see - perhaps for the first time a lot of them have never had the privilege of being present at an inquest.
 A lot of them have never understood what an inquest is all about and so on, so we are trying to create that sort of situation here and I guess what I am trying to convey to you is that - that is how this process works - we not accusing you of anything, we not suggesting that you - that you committed a gross human rights violation.  We asking you to come and to share what you know about this incident and that's really all that this is all about.

MR KNIPE: Commissioner Potgieter I believe that many other people have appeared before similar commissions without being subpoenaed.  People that have committed gross human rights abuses, people that when their stories are told, makes one revolt with revoltion, that came before commissions without being subpoenaed.  I am fully aware of that, I am fully aware of the importance of this Commission and I think that is being conveyed in my statement.
 I however, do believe that an injustice was done to me, to summons me to appear without any investigating officer having the decency to approach me and say have you anything to say I would have given my full and utter co-operation to the investigating officer.  I have no problem in being here, I support the Commission in it's entirety, I just feel that I have been unfairly treated.

ADV POTGIETER: But you see [intervention]

MR KNIPE: That is my perception and I am afraid that perception will always be there.

ADV POTGIETER: Well it's not that I am trying to change your mind, it's just that I am testing what it is that you are really unhappy about.

MR KNIPE: That is being subpoenaed to appear here - not to be here, I would have come here at a telephone call I would have appeared.

ADV POTGIETER: And you see we've heard the testimony of many other of your colleagues who were involved in the things that happened on the particular day and none of them seem to share your -  your view, your difficulty.

MR KNIPE: I think with the greatest respect there is a huge difference between my colleagues that have appeared before this august body and myself.  I was not involved in the shooting of seven young men.
 I have been lumped by the media as being party of that group, the media have not the sense to realise that there is a difference.  I have been branded in the media as part of the group of people that shot and killed seven people, that is my objection.

ADV POTGIETER: And - and in fact what happens is that - you have the opportunity now and we've created an opportunity here to say whatever you know about this incident and to deal with the injustice that the press seem to have done to you.

MR KNIPE: That's precisely what I am doing Mr Commissioner.

ADV POTGIETER: Sure - so you should be happy to be here I assume.

MR KNIPE: I've got no problems being here Mr Commissioner, I've told you none whatsoever.

ADV POTGIETER: Now I just want to - to just see whether I understand insofar as the Commission is concerned and the way in which this matter has been dealt with what your - the basis of your complaints are.  I think if I look at your statement you seem to feel that there should have been a prior interview with you.

MR KNIPE: Quite so.

ADV POTGIETER: Before today.

MR KNIPE: Quite so.