Human Rights Violation Hearings — Rustenburg — 1997-05-07

DR RANDERA: Mr Bokaba, I am going to stop you there.  Thank you very much.  I am sure that today you have spoken for thousands of students and student leaders who experienced the gross human rights violation that you talked about earlier on.  Solly I just have, I think your words have spoken for themselves today.  I just have one question.  As you know the deadline for amnesty approaches, which is the 10th of May, this Saturday is the deadline.  Let us assume that many of these people, and you speak for many victims in what you have echoed today, let us assume that these people do not apply for amnesty, let us assume they do not come forward.  As you know the Commission is asked to make recommendations as part of our report.  What would your advice be, given that you know that many of these people are still holding office today, what would your advice be in terms of these recommendations we have to make to Government about these individuals?

SOLOMON BOKABA: One, Bishop Tutu, the Chairperson of the TRC, throughout the weekend and the media again ensured that people of South Africa hear him, to say that people must come and apply for amnesty.  And amnesty will ensure that you are not going to be subjected to criminal, nor civil damages.  I am saying to them, I am saying to you that speak to them.  Let them come and submit their amnesty.  The 10th May is still an official date, it's not far.  Today is the 7th.  They can even make a note that I have not prepared, I am still coming to submit.  I do not think that you are rule bound.  I think you are here to assist people to get into a process of reconciliation.  And it is never late if they had not done that.
 But if they are not applying for amnesty, it means that we are now dealing with people who either, they are not committed to the process of re-establishing South Africa as a new nation.  Secondly, they are not police officers who wants to bury their past and move forward.  The Government must ensure in your recommendation that this kind of people must be stopped from continuing their service.  Because I am not convinced that when they are given an opportunity to come and share with people what they have done, or just to apply for amnesty and say that can you forgive us, because we might have been misled, or we might have been doing it deliberately.  I have seen Brian Mitchell going into the community which he killed people there.  And the problem is that with Boputhatswana, they think because they were Black, in particular Africans, they are not similar to the White people who abused people.  So I think that must be impressed upon them.  They must ensure that they apply and if they do not apply, they must be dismissed from the service, because this service is not a militaristic service, it is a human rights based service and of course it is still being difficult, because people can't differentiate between the police and the community policing office and so forth and so forth.  That will be my advice.

DR RANDERA: Thank you Solly.  I have no further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ally.

RUSSELL ALLY: Solomon, when you were speaking earlier, you said that when you were in the police van and the officers reported to their media liaison person of the events they said that they acted in self-defence, that the students had actually pelted them with stones, throwing stones at them.  Were there incidents where there were those kinds of clashes between students and police, where student actually did throw stones, pelt the police with stones?

SOLOMON BOKABA: No, there were never those incidents.  As I explained, the students were just seated, then one of the police, threw, he threw a teargas canister in the, I mean right in the middle of the group of the students who were assembled there, and they ran away.  There were never any students who picked up a stone.  It was just a peaceful situation from the side of the students.  And there was never any incident of confrontation which came from the students and in any way the police never even approached the students.  They came straight to me.  And I was just having my loud-hailer and a paper in my hand.

RUSSELL ALLY: I was not only speaking about that incident, Mr Solomon, I was speaking more generally.  Were there incidents were there were actually clashes where students themselves were also involved?

SOLOMON BOKABA: No, there were never any incidents during that day between the police ...

RUSSELL ALLY: No, not that day, but on other occasions.  Was that the only incident like that, that you were involved in?

SOLOMON BOKABA: No, there were never any - you see, as a student leader, particularly from 1992 until 1993, there was never any incident where the students were attacking police or the students showed any, or had any intention of attacking the police.  The police were always coming to the students and they were sjamboking students, they would run up after the students, kick them, assault them.  Some, they were killed, I mean kicked and assaulted behind.  They could not see, because the students were dispersing in most of the incidents as we were trying to march, or we were having some activity, political activities within the campus.  So students at the University, during my leadership, never at any stage confronted the police.  I preached a very peaceful approach to issues.

RUSSELL ALLY: And what about people who were supportive of Mangope's government, whether they were students, whether they lived in the community what was the attitude of students towards them?  Because yesterday when we were in Zeerust, there were a few witnesses who came forward to say that if you were not a member of the ANC, particularly after the nineties, you also became a target and your house was set alight or you were attacked.  What was the attitude of students towards those who supported Lucas Mangope's government?