Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-26

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, even though I could not make out who exactly it was but I did hear windows shattering.

MR MALINDI: And when Mr Qambelani Buthelezi gave evidence he said when people have been cleared at the gate, if they happen to be young people they would be referred to him directly, and if I remember well he was giving this evidence to show that Nosenga was not referred to him.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I agree with Buthelezi because he was in charge of the youth.  They used to go to him.

MR MALINDI: The point I'm trying to make is that if that was the practice then you would not have heard of Nosenga incidentally from some boys, saying here is this person, Mr Buthelezi should have been the one to hear about him first?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR MALINDI: And it was not Mr Qambelani Buthelezi who alerted the residents of the presence of Nosenga.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, he was not around.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chair.  	Sir, at the time that you moved into Kwamadala hostel in 1990, were you a member of the IFP?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes.

UNKNOWN: And at the time of the attack in June '92, you were acquainted with the policies of the IFP.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: May the question please be repeated?

UNKNOWN: At the time of the attack it's fair to say that you were well acquainted with the policies of the IFP.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, I did not know the policies, I was just a follower, I did not know the policies.

UNKNOWN: Sir, you had been a member since - when did you become a member of the IFP?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: If I am not mistaken I think it was in 1990, at the eruption of the violence.

UNKNOWN: You've heard here that it was not within the police of the IFP that a massacre of this nature be launched, is that correct?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I did hear.

UNKNOWN: And you knew that yourself?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, I did not.

UNKNOWN: Are you aware of the fact that the national leader of the IFP had during the course of last week distanced himself from this attack, expressing himself as not condoning this attack?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I think I did not hear that.

UNKNOWN: Are you aware of the fact that the regional leader, Mr Themba Khosa has disassociated himself from this attack in not condoning this attack?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I think I heard that yesterday during testimony here.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

MR STRYDOM: Thank you,
Chairperson.
	During consultations with me, did I show you this map?  That is Exhibit J.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, you did.

MR STRYDOM: Did you point out certain areas to me, about the route and where certain things happened?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, you did.

MR STRYDOM: No further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

MS PRETORIUS: Nothing.

MR DA SILVA: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

MS TANZER: No questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Dlamini, I heard you saying you saw Kubeka stabbing this child in the back.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: I look at Dlamini's application and he says
"I didn't kill anybody but I threw a burning tyre into one of the houses."

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Sibanyoni, you said Mr Dlamini's application.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Kubeka in his application denies hurting anybody, killing anybody.  He says he only threw a tyre in one of the houses and he says
"I never entered houses."
Why do you think he denies that?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: He might be mistaken because I saw him.  He too knows that very well, that I saw him.

MR SIBANYONI: So you are saying he stabbed and also he entered into a house?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: You are not able to say how the names Nonjoli as well Shlube Street came into your documents, into your affidavit, you never gave those names?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No.

MR SIBANYONI: The young man you knew, did you know that person as Matanzima or you also knew the name, Nosenga?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I did not know him, I only knew him as Matanzima, not with any other name.

MR SIBANYONI: I also heard you saying the person was young and you were surprised now that he's a sort of a grown up person.  Was the person far younger than yourself, the person you knew as Matanzima?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I am an old man, he is a baby.

MR SIBANYONI: So would you say the person you saw now at this hearing, is he a baby a far as you are concerned, compared to your age?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: He is a baby, save to say he is now bigger, he looks like a man but yes, I can see he's now a little bit bigger.

MR SIBANYONI: If you say he looks like a man, are you saying he's almost your age?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, not at all, not with me.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Is there anything arising?

MR STRYDOM: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

MR MAPOMA: No questions, Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

MR MALINDI: No questions, Sir.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

MR BERGER: No questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dlamini, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED