Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-25

CHAIRPERSON: He is now being asked about Mtolo and says he doesn't know.  You don't know if Mr Mtolo was a member of any organisation?

MR LAX: No, I don't know.

MS MTANGA: Were you friends with any people in your area at Mkwali who belonged to the IFP?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: At Mkwali people were the same, they never belonged to any political organisation.  It may happen that
...(inaudible) whom I considered as my friends were IFP but they never told me.

MS MTANGA: The applicants have testified that Mashawase and Mkwali were IFP strongholds, do you refute this?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: No, it's not true.

MS MTANGA: Therefore as far as you know Mkwali was not an IFP stronghold?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: In my knowledge I don't remember any political organisation at Mkwali whether ANC or IFP, there aren't any.

MS MTANGA: Who was the Chief of Mkwali, Mr Gumede?  At the time of 1992 who was the Chief of Mkwali?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: It was Charles Mglengwa is the chief of the whole area.

MS MTANGA: Were you aware at the time of a meeting that was called by Chief Mglengwa where he addressed people and he mentioned that ANC people should be driven away from the area?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: No I didn't know that or we didn't know that at Mkwali.  We never attended any meeting at Mkwali.

MS MTANGA: Were you aware at any time of the Chief's political affiliation?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: No.

MS MTANGA: The applicants have testified that you were involved in the attack of Mr Mtolo and you harboured IFP people in your house in 1992 or 1991, what do you say to this?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: This is blue lies, I feel sad about this.  The sad thing is that I can't even find the person who told these three applicants that I was there when Mtolo's house was attacked.  I was never involved in this and for sometime I didn't have a house, how possible would I have harboured people in my place, this is real blue lies.

MS MTANGA: In the period of 1991 and 1992 where did you live, Mr Gumede?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: I was staying at Mkwali where I'm residing at the moment.

MS MTANGA: You have just said you didn't have a house?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: Yes that's true, I was staying in my father's house.

MS MTANGA: So is it your evidence that you never harboured any IFP people in your house, in your father's house?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: That's true, I never harboured any IFP members in my father's house.

MS MTANGA: That is all I want to ask Mr Gumede, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to ask Mr Gumede any questions?

MR WILLS: Just briefly, thanks Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Gumede, do you know Dolele Doris Mgwazi who lives in your area in Mkwali location?  I'm referring to the statement at page 151 of the bundle.

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: Yes I do know Dolele.

MR WILLS: Is she an honest person or would she tell the police lies when she makes a statement?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: I wouldn't tell, she's not someone I know very closely.

MR WILLS: Well can you explain why she says and I'm quoting from page 152 of the record when referring to Mkwali, she says and I quote in paragraph 6 midway down
"In the area in which I'm residing it is ruled by the IFP political association"
This statement was made in May 1992.  I think she'll be the one who can explain that, maybe it's because she likes IFP herself.

MR WILLS: Do you know Zinzeli Simon Gumede?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: No, I don't know him.

MR WILLS: Do you know where Dumazweni Store is?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: Yes I do.

MR WILLS: Which area is that in?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: Mkwali.

MR WILLS: Can you tell me why he would say on page 154 in his statement to the police
"In the area in which I'm residing is ruled by the IFP political organisation"

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: I think she'll be the one who can explain things, maybe she likes IFP.

MR LAX: Mr Wills, out of fairness you should put the next sentence to him as well.

MR WILLS: As you please.
	I'm asked to put this to you:
"During April 1992 I cannot recall the date.  The reasons for my area being attacked at night by unknown people.  As a result of that attack black males, Kadleza Luthuli and Mapamula were murdered."

CHAIRPERSON: That's not, he said the next sentence.  What you are asked to put is
"In the area in which I'm residing is ruled by the IFP political organisation.  There is no friction at our area between the two political organisations."

MR WILLS: Oh I'm sorry, I'm reading from the wrong statement, I'm reading from page 152, I'm sorry was an accident, Mr Chairperson.
	Do you want to comment on that, that there's no friction between the organisations?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: As I've already explained that at Mkwali there were no frictions.  A person will know himself or herself which political organisation she or he is affiliated but people were not fighting because of the different affiliations.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us why you think that Detective Warrant Officer Bheki Joseph Shabalala will tell the court and I'm referring to page 155 of the record that both parties had grown up in the said area but due to political differences had now taken up residence in the Umgababa area and he's referring to people who left Mkwali as a result of political differences, why he would say that that is political differences when on your evidence there were no political differences?

CHAIRPERSON: Is he referring to political parties there or is he referring to Jomo Masaleku and Ntande Shange?

MR WILLS: Yes, he's referring to the political differences as I read his statement Mr Chairperson as the reason why these persons left.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WILLS: That there were political differences that caused these two people to leave.

CHAIRPERSON: That there were political differences that caused these two people to leave.

MR WILLS: Yes.  I'm putting this to this witness on the basis that he doesn't know of any political differences in the area and for the record this person is attached to the criminal intelligence service.  Do you want to comment on that?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: Would you please repeat that, I didn't get that one?

MR LAX: Perhaps I can help you.  This statement here is written by a person who was a member of the criminal intelligence service, used to be called the security branch.  He's a policeman who says that Jomo Mseleko and Ntande Shange were part of an armed group that launched an attack on the bus.  He says they both grew up in the area but due to political differences had now taken up residence in Umgababa.  The crisp point you're being asked to comment on is he's a policeman with knowledge of this area and he's saying they left the area because of political differences?  Do you understand?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: I cannot deny what the police said.  Maybe he got this from other people, this is other peoples view or version but I was born and bred in that area and this is my version.

MR WILLS: Yes, to save time Mr Gumede, there are other references in the record and I can refer them to you if you so wish where it's clear that the witnesses who gave evidence in the trial on a number of occasions state that the area which you come from, that is Mkwali, and also the adjoining area, Mashawase, were IFP dominated areas and I'm surprised that you're disputing that because if you've lived in the area all your life I would expect you to know that.  I would like you to comment?

DUMSANE HAMILTON GUMEDE: As I've already mentioned in Mkwali people knew themselves they never had to tell someone which political organisation they belonged.

MR WILLS: So what you're essentially saying Mr Gumede, is that you cannot deny that there was political violence in the area because you're claiming that you didn't know?