Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MR LAX: According to Mabuso Mhlongo you went on a training course.  Let me just check something to be absolutely certain.  Yes, my note here is fairly clear.  You came back from your training in June 1993.  The end of June he said.  You joined at the end of May.  The whole of June you were away on training.  You don't know when you came back.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, I don't remember.

MR LAX: Now in your earlier evidence you told us that you went on an orientation course.  Remember that ?

JOHN RADEBE: Mabuso Mhlongo said you want on a proper training course, a full training course, and he went with you so he knows what course you went on, because he recommended you for that course.  Can you explain to us that?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.  The person who made arrangements for the course was me.  Now I'm requesting the Committee to believe me when I speak because I did the arrangements.

MR LAX: Mr Radebe, we've heard from Bonga Khumalo and from Mabusa Mhlongo, that you as an ordinary member wouldn't have had anything to with your training.  They would have organised it for you.  You would have been selected to go on the training, but you wouldn't have made the arrangements yourself.  That was the way it worked, and they said as much, and you heard that evidence yourself.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, I heard.

MR LAX: So how could you say you did the arrangements yourself?  That wasn't the policy.

JOHN RADEBE: I'm not saying the arrangements as in training.  Let me put it this way, when the preparations were made for me to go underground.

MR LAX: When Mabusa instructed you to kill Maletsatsi, he says he was alone with you at that time.  You have told us that a whole lot of other members of our unit were there.  Please explain this.

JOHN RADEBE: ...(not translated)

CHAIRPERSON: The question refers to Mabusa Mhlongo.

JOHN RADEBE: I think I said Kennel told us when it was many of us.  Your evidence was that Mabusa Mhlongo told you in the company of others like Godfrey, I can't remember all the other names without going back to the details of my note, but you mentioned a few other members.

CHAIRPERSON: Comrade Mabusa, Godfrey, and other members that belonged to the unit.

MR LAX: So there's no mistake here.  Your evidence was clear, there were more than just the two of you present when he gave the order.  He was very careful in his testimony to say that he was alone with you when he gave you the order.  I want you to explain that to us.

JOHN RADEBE: I can tell this Committee that we engaged in many activities and we did not write these things down.  We did not keep a record.  The records that were kept were the meetings of the ANC, and mistakes are bound to be made in such activities because I would say here I was involved in such an activity with a certain comrade, while in actual fact I am making a mistake, it was a different comrade, because these things happened a long time ago.

CHAIRPERSON: Without going into a very long story, if you've made such a mistake just say I made a mistake.  I mean I'm having recollection difficulties, this thing happened in 1993 and we are now in 1999 and there were quite a number of activities that we were involved in other than this.  Just say so without having to bog yourself down into unnecessary details.

JOHN RADEBE: The Committee must please bear with me when I make mistakes.  I never thought that I would appear in 1999 reliving what we did in the past.

MR LAX: Kennel wasn't a member of the Zone 12 unit, was he?

JOHN RADEBE: He was not.

MR LAX: So how would he be searching for these people, Maletsatsi and her gang, with you?

JOHN RADEBE: Kennel was in Small Farms.

MR LAX: Look at paragraph 6 on page 148.  You say,
"..during the hunting I was with the following comrades, Godfrey Shiya, Kennel, Skosana, Oupa Keswa, Bonga Khumalo, Fani Mkhwanazi and Sipho Tshabalala."
Do you see that?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, I agree.

MR LAX: But he wasn't a member of your unit, he was at Small Farms.  Your unit was from Zone 12.  Bonga Khumalo also wasn't there according to his own testimony.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, I said he was not there.  Can I explain Kennel's issue in this way?  Now when we had in our midst a comrade from Small Farm he would assist us in identifying people, we didn't want to attack members of our own community.  He would actually give us the signs that were used during the patrols because signs differed by day.

CHAIRPERSON: You know the question was a very simple question.  Is the Kennel that is reflected here in paragraph 6, the same Kennel as Kennel Paulas Malagwane?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If so, did he form part of the hunting that you conducted?  Yes or no?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, he was there.

MR LAX: Nowhere in this statement, in relation to the killing of Maletsatsi, do you say that Bonga Khumalo gave you the instruction to kill her.  No sorry, not Bonga Khumalo, I beg your pardon, Mabusa Mhlongo.

JOHN RADEBE: Sometimes we think things would happen according to our imaginations, and they would take a different turn.  Kennel, Mabusa, it was through Mabusa and it came to me through Kennel.

MR LAX: Now, say that again.

JOHN RADEBE: I must have been mistaken by thinking that because it was first mentioned by Kennel I was not supposed to mention Mabusa's name.

MR LAX: Why weren't you supposed to mention Mabusa's name?

JOHN RADEBE: I mentioned Mabusa's name in the first order.  I thought it would be improper to write Mabusa in the first one and in the second one.  Some of the things we do not include in our applications and thinking that we would elaborate on them when we sit here.  Like now, there are many people who stole in the township that were involved ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Yes I don't want to hear about people who stole in the township, just stick to the point.  The point is a simple one.  Why didn't you mention Mabusa Mhlongo who gave you the direct order, in your statement?

JOHN RADEBE: I made a mistake by omitting, by not writing him.

MR LAX: Now, just now in your evidence you said the instruction came from Mabusa through Malekwane.  Did I hear you correctly?

JOHN RADEBE: I did not say that.

MR LAX: He didn't say that?

INTERPRETER: Chairperson the interpreter has actually twisted the names.

MR LAX: That's fine, I'm happy to hear that, it really helps us a great deal.  Now, you were asked in a letter to tell us which commander gave you which orders.  Do you remember that?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: And you basically said
"...the orders to commit the, the commission want to know where I received orders to commit the killing, and they came from the African National Congress office from Paulus Kennel Malekwane, Stanley and Mabusa Mhlongo."
Correct?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: You see that on page 157?  Stanley never ever gave you an order to kill anybody, did he?

JOHN RADEBE: He never gave me an order.

MR LAX: Well then why did you put him here as someone that gave you an order?

JOHN RADEBE: He was the chairperson of the ANC at the time, and because of my standard of education I cannot draft such letters on my own.  I had to dictate to someone.

CHAIRPERSON: You know I would be much better if you gave a much more plausible reason, that you included Stanley because he is part of the leadership.  Now you've alluded to that, and now you are diverting from really what should be a very clear response.  As a chairperson of the ANC youth league he must take overall responsibility for your action as SDU members.

JOHN RADEBE: My apologies for extending my answer.  I should have given a very brief response.

MR LAX: So, just to help us, why did you say, why did you put his name there?

JOHN RADEBE: I wanted to explain, I cannot write, I have someone writing on my behalf.

MR LAX: The question you were answering was who were your commanders who gave you the orders.  Do you remember that?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: Well Stanley never gave you any orders.