Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2011-01-21

MR VISSER: You did not tell Mr Stander about frog-jumps, being compelled to do frog-jumps, is that your answer?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: I do not know whether I told him.

MR VISSER: Nor did you tell this Committee about that this morning, did you?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: I say these things happened in 1986 and some of the things are coming back to my memory.  I remember that we made frog-jumps.

MR VISSER: And strangely enough, your sister, Mildred, also did not tell this Committee about that this morning, about frog-jumps.

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: You did not ask her about them.

MR VISSER: All right.  Were you compelled to do anything else apart from frog-jumps?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Yes, the statement.

MR VISSER: No, you see, what I want to put to you is this, it may very well be, and it is true, that nobody specifically asked you about frog-jumps before I did, but everybody asked you about how you were assaulted and where.  Do you agree with that?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: You have just asked about the frog-jumps, Sir, it comes from you.

MR VISSER: Everybody in this Committee asked you this morning about how you were assaulted, is that not true?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Assault and frog-jumps are different.  To be assaulted is to be beaten and a frog-jump is something else. These things differ.

MR VISSER: Mrs Lekitlane, Ms Lekitlane, forget about frog-jumps, we are on to something else.  Everybody asked you this morning precisely where and how and by whom you were assaulted.  Do you agree with that?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Who asked me, because this is my first time to even, this is the first time to speak, it is my first time to speak.

MR VISSER: Mrs Lekitlane, perhaps you are not understanding me.  I am not sure how the translation is going across.
	You came here to give evidence about how you were assaulted.  Is that correct?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you were asked this morning by Mr Stander and by members of the Committee who assaulted you and where.

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Sir, I have just come to this seat to testify.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Nobody asked me that.

MR VISSER: Ja.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Visser, I think that the witness said what she understands about assault and frog-jumps are different to assault, yes.  Should she have asked what had happened to you and what has happened to her with reference to the assault and her definition, would she not have included the other facts.

MR VISSER: (...Indistinct) you are absolutely right, but this witness has, just now, told this Committee that she was also kicked in the passage by Motsamai.  That is what it is about.

MR STANDER: No, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Did she say that, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: She said so.

MR STANDER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: She said if you did not do frog-jumps, you were kicked from behind by Motsamai, she did not say that he kicked her.

MR STANDER: That is true, Mr Chairman, I could not have put it better myself.

MR VISSER: (...Indistinct) to you, Mr Chairman.
	Were you kicked in the passage by Mr Motsamai on any of the occasions when you were at Fountain Street?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: It was when I was doing frog-jumps.

MR VISSER: Please answer the question directly so that there can be no doubt this time.
	Were you kicked by Mr Motsamai in the passage, at any time?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: He kicked me at the passage when I was doing frog-jumps.  He did not just come and kick me.

MR VISSER: Why did you not tell us about that this morning when you gave your evidence in chief?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: You are asking me, Sir, about it.  You asked me whether we did frog-jumps at the passages, you are the first person to ask me that.

MR VISSER: I was not the first person who asked you whether you were assaulted and by whom.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, in fairness to the witness, the witness has explained that he was, she was kicked by Motsamai while she was doing frog-jumps, Motsamai did not just kick me.  That clearly means that she sees the, being kicked as part of the command to do frog-jumps and does not take it as an independent assault.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, on a point of order, my learned friend, Mr ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: I would like to just say what I had said from the translation.  She was doing the frog-jumps, because if she did not do them she would have been kicked.  That is how the interpretation has come through to me.  She did not give evidence that she was kicked, but on grounds of this we put the question through the Chairman to you, but when did she say she was kicked.  So, as regards the translation which came through to me, she did not say at that stage that she had been kicked, but she would have been kicked had she not done the frog-jumps.  I do not know if your interpretation is correct.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, (...indistinct) the impression that you have got, then I can step off this point, because then I have made my point.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Were you compelled to do push-ups?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: I remember of frog-jumps, not push-ups.

MR VISSER: How did Mr Mamome assault you with the cord that you spoke about?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: He was, he, I explained that he had this cord that was like a kettle cord and he was beating me with it.

MR VISSER: Where on your body?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Here at the back.  Sometimes he hit us on the head.

MR VISSER: On your behind and on your head?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: (Not translated).

MR VISSER: The witness indicates on her back, not her behind, her back and her head.
	How did this make you dizzy is what I would like to, you to explain, when you were hit with the cord?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: If you are assaulted you feel pain and you become dizzy because of crying.

MR VISSER: And you are saying that the assault with the cord caused one of your tooth to become loose, is that what you are saying?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: On the third day these people were beating us.  You would be beaten by Motsamai and Mamome.

MR VISSER: I am sorry, then I misunderstood you.  Oh, I see, I am sorry, my attorney has now just drawn my attention to the fact.  She says she does not know who did that. Sorry, I withdraw that, Mr Chairman.
	Is it, is it not true that you were visited at Glen Police Station by police officers who did inspection there and talked to you about any complaints that you might have?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: I have never seen them.

MR VISSER: Did you see Erasmus there over weekends, over a weekend, I am sorry?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: No, Sir, I saw Erasmus at Fountain.

MR VISSER: Would you bear with me a moment, Mr Chairman, please?
	I just want to talk to you briefly about the people that you have implicated.  First of all, in your affidavit, page nine, Mr Chairman, you mention the following names, Constable Mamome, Warrant Officer Erasmus and Constable Motsamai.  Now, we have spoken about those.  Then you also mentioned Constable Ngo and Constable Kopi, K O P I.  Do you remember that you told Mr Stander that those were people who took part in your torturing?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Some of the people I knew with names.  Some of them did not torture me.

MR VISSER: So, what you are saying is this affidavit is not entirely correct?

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: It is correct.  I did not remember others, I remembered them, I remember them, I would remember them when I see them.

MR VISSER: Who of the five people that I have just mentioned to you did not take part in your torturing?  I am going to mention the names again ... (intervention).

MILDRED NTHABISENG LEKITLANE: Mafisa was insulting us, Kopi was present, but I do not remember what he did.  Ngo was also present. Those are the names of the people I remember.