Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-05-19

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: We were the group of people, if I still remember we were six or more than six, eight, if I remember right.

MR WILLIAMS: Can you recall how many of these people were armed?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: No, there were only two people armed on that time.

MR WILLIAMS: Were you armed?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: I was armed with a hand-gun and one of my comrades was armed with an R4, the same R4 rifle.

MR WILLIAMS: And did you shoot at Mr Xegetwane's house?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes, I shot.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you know whether anyone was injured or killed in this attack?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Well, I didn't see nothing, but our aim was not to kill somebody in the house.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Ndlumbini, when you shot at Mr Xegetwane's house, did you not foresee the possibility that other persons, completely unconnected with his activities, could be injured, through your own attack?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: As it was at the night, all the people were sleeping and we were shooting at front, we will see that maybe some people can be injured, but it was really not our aim. On cross-fire it was going to happen like that, but it was not our aim to shoot at the innocent people.

SISI KHAMPEPE: On which part of the house then did you direct your shooting?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: We direct our shooting on the front of the house, the wall.

JUDGE WILSON: What sort of house was it?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: It was the house there with the two windows and the front, and the gate and a sort of garage and store, next-door something there, I think they are selling chickens or what.

MR WILLIAMS: Was it a brick house?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: It is the corner house but no, it is made with the zincs, they make the house with the shacks, it is like a garage with shacks.

MR WILLIAMS: Was that corrugated iron?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: So R4 bullets would go straight through. Is that not so?  You had shot R4 rifles, you have done military training. You knew it would go straight through a corrugated iron house, wouldn't it?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes, we were, we knew that the R4 will penetrate there.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you foresee the possibility that Mr Xegetwane might be injured or killed in this attack?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes, we foresee that he could be injured, but it was not our aim to injure any person, but to alarm ... (intervention).

MR WILLIAMS: You nonetheless, foresaw the possibility that people could be injured or be killed.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you know, Mr Ndlumbini, who was staying with Mr Xegetwane at that time?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: I'm sorry?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you know who was staying with Mr Xegetwane at the time in the house?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Well, I didn't know who stayed in the house at that time. I didn't know even the house, you see, I was just seeing the house.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Who pointed the house to you, was that Comrade Xhoxho?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Well, as we were moving, you see, I was already knew the house is the house of the one of the perpetrators of this taxi war, you see.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you on your own make any attempt to find out if there were any other persons inside of the house at the time when your shots were directed at this shanty house?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: No, I didn't knew that there is a person inside, you see.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Ndlumbini, in what respect did you say that this attack on Mr Xegetwane's house can be considered a political motive?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: As me, I was instructed by Comrade Chris Hani to ask and protect the people, you see. I have seen that this taxi wars as they are killing the people or endanger the people, that this is our way to protect the people from this taxi war and also gangsters, as the previous government formed the sort of structures that they called Thunder Storm and Gold Storm and Thunder Storm and all these things, Springbok.  So that to delay the negotiation process.  So I see that this we were the counter of those activities from the Death Squad and all these things. We were countering that because really the people, they were in danger on that time.

MR WILLIAMS: mr Ndlumbini, can you just tell me what are you doing now, where do you work now, what do you do with your life?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Now I am working, I am in the South African National Defence Force.  I am working as a storeman, OS.

MR WILLIAMS: Are you a member of the National Defence Force?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes, I am a soldier in the South African National Defence Force.

MR WILLIAMS: And then very lastly, do I understand you correct that the attack on the police was motivated by the fact that you wanted to obtain their firearms in order to arm the self-defence units?  Is that correct?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes, is that correct.

MR WILLIAMS: And the attack on Mr Xegetwane's house was sort of to send him a signal that he is not wanted in the community, because he was seen as being instrumental in the taxi war.  Is that correct?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: I have got no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLIAMS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, are there any questions?

MR BRINK: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I understand before putting questions, I understand that one of the victims, that is Mr Xegetwane has in fact arrived and I will after I have put questions, if I could have a short break just to consult with him about one or two matters.  In fact, it may be convenient if that indulgence is granted me now, Mr Chairman, so I can talk to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Five minutes?

MR BRINK: Yes, I don't think I need more than five minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a short adjournment.
ON RESUMPTION

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: (Still under oath).

MR BRINK: Thank you, Mr Chairman, for that.  I won't keep you long, Mr Ndlumbini, but I just want to ask you one or two questions relating to the allegations made in your affidavit, which was annexed to your application.   I am referring, Mr Chairman, members of the Committee to page 9 of the bundle, towards the bottom. In fact, it is the last paragraph, but further down. You said
"In the townships there was a taxi war raging and we suspected that the police were instigating the violence in order to sabotage negotiations progress, which were underway at that stage between the ANC and the NP-led government."
Now what gave rise to the suspicion that the police were instigating the violence, which undoubtedly occurred, why do you say the police were assisting these people?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: One day in 1991, I don't remember the date  of that line, but I was walking in New Crossroads, near to the house of Comrade Roy Sondo. There was one guy who was guarding Comrade Roy.  So I meet him on the corner. He said no, there is a combi coming.  I said what combi? He said there is a combi, you will see, because he was hiding himself and then I was waiting for this combi, because at that time I wanted to see what is happening really.  But on that van there was a driver, a taxi driver was driving the combi, but there was no one in the combi when I look at the combi. But the combi is passing me, there are two people who were lying on their backs in the car.  There are two policemen in the van.  So I mean, I was telling the guy now that there are two policemen in the van, he must be careful because you said it is a taxi, I mean, taxi war, but now there are two people, two policemen in the - that's where I see the police were involved in this ...

MR BRINK: Was it a generally held perception amongst your people that the police were instigating this violence? Did everyone believe that or was it just you?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Well, I think only people there, I mean not all. Some people, they knew that, especially my organisation knew that the police are very involved, and other people, they are also complaining that these police are there, who are busy ... (intervention).