Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 2000-02-04

CHAIRPERSON: As the Field Commander, were you in a sense held responsible for the shooting by your superiors in turn?  In other words, was their attitude:  "Mr Mkosana, you are going to be one of those people that will be called upon to explain what happened there"?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Because, were you the person who was supposed to have given the order to fire on the ground?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And their attitude was that they want to know whether you are responsible for  all this chaos that erupted there.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, because they asked me what had happened there.  I told them and then they said:  "You must meet Mr Skrube so that you can have a statement, to make a statement with Mr Skrube and then the Board of Inquiry will be convened about the situation."

CHAIRPERSON: So you were almost like one of the suspects in this inquiry?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: As a commander, because I was the commander.  I cannot say I was a suspect but I was - maybe I was held responsible.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Because I was the commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  The term suspect is used advisedly, but you were one of the people who could possibly be called upon to answer for this.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, I was one of them.

CHAIRPERSON: So you went into the Inquiry under those sort of circumstances?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Possibly there could be action taken against you.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, Dir.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand.  Yes, Mr Nompozolo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Now, according to Mr Gonya, the shooting incident happened probably towards lunchtime somewhere there.  In the afternoon round about 5 o'clock nothing was happening.  You, together with him and other soldiers, you were patrolling the area together, is that correct?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And according to him, there was no talk of him not obeying the orders of yourself.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes I told Gonya when we were shooting that why were you shooting, but during the time we were doing patrols to look for the situation, I didn't speak because the troops had fired, I was just conducting patrol because I know the next day we will deal with Gonya because we were busy with a task.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he still have the rifle grenade and everything in his possession?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, no weapon was withdrawn.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And when Mr Gonya testifies he will deny that you ever said minimum force must be used and that after he used the rocket launcher, you reprimanded him.  he's going to deny that.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I think if he can deny it, I think Maj Mbina's statement can also say that I've said minimum force.  Maybe he haven't understand what I was talking about.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Because of the situation, is it possible that he did not hear you, he only concentrated on the question of fire?  Is there such a possibility because of the situation?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, I cannot tell because why only Gonya fired in that vehicle, why the others have not tried?  Why the others have not tried?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, that's exactly the point.  It's about him understanding what was being said, you see, he understood you to be saying fire and everyone was panicking, so he fired with the rocket launcher.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, that was impossible, because why is that, there were seniors also in that vehicle, like Corporals who were there, why they haven't fired themselves, but he is the only one who was having a rocket launcher in that vehicle, is that correct?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: And was he the only troop?

MR MKOSANA: No, I think we were about four or five troops and the section leader and the section 2 I.C.  They were superior there, myself and the other corporals.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Were the soldiers panicking?  Was there a sense of panic and urgency?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, to those who were deployed, who have a threat that ...(indistinct)

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman, nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Just on that point Mr Mkosana.  Would it be correct to say that there was a sort of a build-up to this confrontation in the minds of the troops?  There was this idea of a looming battle involving Umkhonto weSizwe?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, I can say so, because that's why they were given orders.  They know that there will be an attack from Umkhonto weSizwe.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is why all this heavy lethal armament was deployed?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Because you were expecting a full-scale battle.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: That's positive.

CHAIRPERSON: And would it be fair to say that there must have been a great deal of apprehension amongst the troops?  Wouldn't there have been some concern, even fear, amongst your troops?  They were preparing for war in a sense, in their minds.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: That's correct, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: And they would have been edgy on this day.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I think so.

CHAIRPERSON: So that it looks as if it would have taken very little to spark off action on the part of the troops.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Has the Panel got other questions?

ADV SANDI: Yes.  Just a follow-up on that.  By the way, I understood you yesterday to say these are very inexperienced soldiers when it comes to crowd control.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, I can put in that way.  All of the Ciskeian force who were not fully trained in riot control and we never conducted a control as such, we were always in support of the police.

ADV SANDI: Were you not personally concerned that things could very easily go wrong, having a group of inexperienced soldiers on crowd control?  Wasn't that something that really concerned you?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, Sir, it was my concern because we were told that the marches would be on at the stadium and then we haven't been told that the marchers would go out from the stadium, that was my concern, although we were always in support of the police.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but the same soldiers which you say were very inexperienced, you still give them order to shoot using minimum force when you've not even seen a person or an object around that has been struck by one of those gun shots which you heard, same soldiers telling them: "Shoot."  You tell them "Fire.  Fire."

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, they are trained Sir, the soldiers, but they are not trained in this riot control so much.  They know ...(indistinct) in riot control, they don't understand fully, duly, like police did, but they are trained soldiers in any aspect of how to control a weapon, when to open fire.

ADV SANDI: Can I take it that before you gave this order that your soldiers should shoot?  You were not  really under a serious pressure to return fire to the marchers, not so?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: ;  We were under pressure, Sir, because the people were coming to us, so what we can do because we have no water canal to draw the people away, we have no tear gas to tear gas the people away.

ADV SANDI: But you still take the time to contact van der Bank and say to him:  "We are being shot at, what should we do"?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Yes.  Why don't you simply return fire to the crowd and explain to van der Bank later?  Why you ordered your soldiers to open fire?  Why don't you simply return fire?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, that's an order.  If there's something wrong, wherever I'm being attacked, I will attack back but in that situation I said the shots were being fired, so I  report to van der Bank:  "The crowd is coming to us with speed and then there are shots being fired".