Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-04-11

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: Yes.  We sat down and talked about it, myself, comrade Keke Nyawuse and the other comrades who were in exile, but they were not coming from my neighbourhood.  We saw a reason as trained people, to do something to help the community.
	We decided that in order to be able to protect ourselves - we had nothing as trained people, we had nothing like firearms to protect the community, we decided that we should get the firearms to be able to protect ourselves as well as the communities.
	We agreed on the first step as to get the firearms.  As trained people we knew how to disarm a person and it was very easy for us to see a person who is not expecting anything.  We decided that the people who did not belong to our organisation would be our targets, people like police.  
	It happened on the 2nd of July in 1992.  We saw this person who had a firearm and we did not know this person and we suspected that he was one of the people who were in the other organisations, other than the ANC.  Our opponents, or perhaps a policeman.  
	Myself and Keke, we saw this person as we were standing at Section F.  He was walking down the road.  When we saw him and we took a closer look we saw a firearm on the left-hand side of his jacket and when we saw that he had a firearm we followed him, because that was what we were looking for at that time.
	As he was not expecting anything, when we arrived at the stop sign, Keke Nyawuse went to talk to him as a person who was asking for something else, but he just wanted to distract his mind.  I had an empty bottle, cool-drink bottle, and I hit him at the back of his head.  He fell down and I took his firearm.  I shot in the air twice, though I cannot remember very well if I shot twice or three times, because I wanted him to run away, so that he cannot be able to follow our tracks.
	We took the firearm and it happened after a week or two, I was arrested.  I was sentenced to seven years in prison.

MS LOONAT: Besides the firearm, what else did you take from the gentleman?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: Nothing else, except the firearm.  We only took the firearm.  We left him there in the road.

MS LOONAT: What were your plans thereafter?  Once you'd got the firearms, what were you planning to do?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: Our main intention was to get the firearms first and then we would be able to protect the community against the unknown gunmen, because people would come and shoot randomly at people on the streets.  Our intention was to get firearms so as to be prepared to fight those people, to make it difficult for them to come and harass the community.

MS LOONAT: Did you think one firearm was going to be sufficient for what you planned?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: Truly-speaking, it was just the beginning of our plan.  That was not the end, we were still going to continue acquiring firearms.  According to what transpired in our discussion, we were still to go to get the firearms from the police as the people who were also our targets.

MS LOONAT: Mr Ndlovu, when you came back to South Africa and joined the ANC, what was your status at the ANC, whilst you were living in F-Section, KwaMashu?  What was your position, your status in the ANC?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: When I came back from the exile to South Africa, many things still had not happened, like the structures to operate freely.  They couldn't do that.  Even ourselves as the MK soldiers, we were encountering problems because there were no ANC people in our areas, people whom we would be able to contact and tell them about the problems and get assistance from them.

MS LOONAT: So in fact, when you planned to carry out these retaliatory attacks on the other party, were you given any particular order or instruction to do so?  Or to report to anybody when you'd done so?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: There was no order that was given to us, there was not even a person that we would report to after an operation, but as the MK cadres, trained cadres, we realise that it was very important for us to protect the people.  As we were trained, we were trained for such purposes, that we should protect our communities against harassment.  That was a joint decision that was taken by us as the MK cadres, to defend the people.

MS LOONAT: So in fact, what you're saying is that it's because you relied entirely on your training whilst in exile, you took the initiative to act as you thought fit, in order to protect your people from these attacks by other political parties, is that correct?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: Yes, we decided that that was a good idea, because even during our training we were allowed to take an initiative when necessary, more especially when it has got something to do with protecting the community, without waiting for anyone to come and tell you to do something.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying that that was part of the policy of your organisation? - your actions.

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: It was not against the policy of the organisation that you were part of, not to - it was not against the policy to protect the community?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: I want to explain this.  The problem that we were facing was not our own problem as the people from the exile, but the problem was more about the community, the whole community, because they were subjects of harassment.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but was your organisation against protecting the community?  Or was it part of their policy?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: As I've explained initially, what we were doing was our own initiative and because of what we knew and the training and the commitment as the MK members, I can say the reason for us to go to the exile was to protect the people.  When that was happening we realised that it was important for us to take an initiative to protect the people, because even it was my commitment to die for the people and to protect them any time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I know that.  I'm not talking about the initiative, I just want us to get to the point of this application - hopefully.  All that I want to know is, was it against the policy of the ANC to protect the community, the policy of the ANC and MK, or was it in accordance with their policy?  So in other words, what you did, was that against the policy of the ANC, or was it in accordance with that policy?

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: Yes, what we did was in accordance with the policies of the ANC, to protect the people.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, that helps.  Yes Ms Loonat, anything else?

MS LOONAT: Mr Chairperson, could I refer you to page 28 of the bundle, the last paragraph and in fact the last line.

CHAIRPERSON: What, 38?

MS LOONAT: Page 28.

CHAIRPERSON: 28, sorry, sorry.  Yes.  Last line?

MS LOONAT: Last line.  He says
"We want to ambush them"
and he's referring to the IFP and the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes.

MS LOONAT: I'd just like Mr Ndlovu to elaborate on what he meant by "ambush" and what he intended to do.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes alright, go ahead.

THAMSANQA NDLOVU: What I was trying to explain is that in our intentions we had planned that the only way for which we could procure firearms to protect ourselves, would be to obtain these from those organisations who were harassing us, including the police, and we had agreed that these should be the target from whom these firearms could be obtained, because they were always in possession of these.  And we concluded that once we have satisfactorily obtained a certain number of these firearms, we would then be in the position to stop them from shooting as they pleased.  They were to be made aware of our existence in the area.  They had to know that there are people who are protecting the community.

MS LOONAT: Since your return to South Africa, were you employed?  Since you returned to South Africa, what employment were you involved in?