Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR STEPHENS: I can only say what I saw.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ...(inaudible)

MR STEPHENS: I know it was closed.  I think the thing that made me think that they were Inkatha marchers, some of them had either red bands on or some type of weapon, as in a knobkierrie or a stick, and that's the only way that I would say, but to actually say what type of clothes they were wearing, I don't know.  A big assortment.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And the red bands...(inaudible), were they around their heads?

MR STEPHENS: Ja, some were, I can't recall exactly.

MR BERGER: Thank you.  This group that started at King George and Noord was approximately how big?

MR STEPHENS: I'd say it was hard to say, but it was fairly biggish.  But the main time I actually noticed them properly, that it was a proper march, was when they came down to De Villiers, because by them the whole street was filled, which was a lot of people.

MR BERGER: And when you initially saw them they were not such a big group?

MR STEPHENS: Well I wouldn't say a big group from where I was standing, Noord - you must remember Noord is almost three streets up, if you look from Plein to De Villiers to Noord, and they were on that side of Noord, so I just saw people gathering.  And that's why when I say people moving across in all directions, that is the way it looked at that stage.

MR BERGER: Coming in two's and three's?

MR STEPHENS: Ones; twos; threes, ja, basically.  Maybe more ones than twos and threes.

MR BERGER: At that stage, when the group moved down towards De Villiers Street, there were no ANC guards standing on the corner of Plein and King George, am I correct, according to you?

MR STEPHENS: I actually can't recall, but they were in that vicinity of the entrance of the Shell House, and when they moved down to De Villiers, the ANC guard came out to the pillar, and there was a Policeman with him.

MR BERGER: Before - that's what I'm trying to confirm with you.

MR STEPHENS: H'n.

MR BERGER: Before the ANC guard came out to the corner of Plein and King George, there were no ANC guards on that corner, correct?

MR STEPHENS: During the day they would go there, then they'd move away; they'd go back to the entrance and they'd come back and move away and come back the whole time.  They were just roaming around there the whole time, so I can't say at that specific time, I can't recall that they all were there or weren't all there, or one or two were there, I can't recall it.

MR BERGER: You see because your evidence at the inquest was the following
"There were not ANC guards on the corner at the critical time when the group approached the intersection of King George and De Villiers.  As they came to the intersection of King George and De Villiers, this ANC guard came out alone to the corner of King George and Plein Street."

MR STEPHENS: Mmm.

MR BERGER: Do you confirm that?

MR STEPHENS: At that specific time it could have been.

MR BERGER: And he was on that corner with a single Policeman?

MR STEPHENS: Correct.  And when he started firing, then the whole lot of them came running out - well not running out, but they were in that vicinity, but not right on the corner itself.

MR LAX: Sorry ...(inaudible), you keep saying "they came running out", I struggle to understand where did they come running out from?

MR STEPHENS: Okay, see Plein Street runs like this, you've got the entrance of the ANC of the Shell House which is probably 15/20 metres long, and they were all gathered in that area.  Now they've got another 5 metres or 10 metres to go to the corner, and that's where they ran from.  So they ran 5 metres - 10 metres, whatever.  So in other words whether you're saying they were actually on the corner itself or near the corner, they were in that vicinity, but maybe not at that corner at that specific time when they guard started shooting.  When the guard started shooting, then they came to the corner, the corner itself.

MR LAX: Are you trying to say to us that they appeared around the corner ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR LAX: To your line of vision?

MR STEPHENS: Yes, at that stage, yes.  We're talking now as the shooting started, yes.

MR LAX: But you couldn't see around the corner yourself?

MR STEPHENS: No I can, I can see them, they're standing right here in front of me, I could see them.  I think, like I said as well, most of the time we were looking more towards the marchers itself, because it's the last thing I expected is shots to go off at that stage.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.  You were looking at the marchers and ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: Most of the time, yes.

MR BERGER: Yes.  And you can't say from where this person came with the AK47, but the last 5 to 10 metres you saw him coming from the direction of the entrance towards the corner of Plein and King George?

MR STEPHENS: Ja, see because we saw them the whole day type - well the whole day - well that whole morning anyway we saw them, and they were all around the entrance the whole time.  And then, like I said, when the marchers were at De Villiers and King George, I saw him break away basically from the crowd and come and stand at the side there with the gun, and he got on his haunches on his knees.

MR BERGER: No you never saw him break away from the crowd, let me read to you what you said at page 2519

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

MR BERGER: Middle of the page
Question
"So you first saw the marchers, and then you saw this guard coming from the entrance of Shell House and positioning himself in King George Street?"

MR STEPHENS: Yip.

MR BERGER: Answer
"I cannot say I actually saw him coming from the entrance, I just saw him.  I probably saw the last 5 metres from the entrance, coming in that - from the direction of the entrance that I saw him standing there by the pillar with a Policeman."

MR STEPHENS: Quite correct, but I didn't say he didn't come from a crowd either.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ...(inaudible)

MR STEPHENS: Sorry can you just turn your microphone up, I can barely hear you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I'm probably getting slightly confused because from the exhibit given to us by Mr Dorfling, that's Exhibit E, page 26, you state at paragraph 2 that you saw an ANC security guard coming out of Shell House and standing next to the pillar and there was a SA Policeman standing next to him.  Are you still talking of the same person?

MR STEPHENS: Same person, yes I am.  So in other words I saw him come out of the - well, in the vicinity of the Shell House.  He was standing around there with the rest of the group, so in other words he had come out of the ANC basically, and from there he moved across.  So I took it he was part of the Shell House guards, because I had seen him during the day, in that morning.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What made him to be so conspicuous to you, what made you to observe him ...(intervention)

MR STEPHENS: Well for starters he had an assault rifle with him and he was dressed in the ANC security guards' uniform.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What kind of a uniform would that be?

MR STEPHENS: Well like I said, I noticed him having a white top on and black pants, and he was standing with the rest of the guys there, and obviously he's not going to be an Inkatha marcher if he's standing there with an assault rifle, that's the way I took it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Okay, were the other security guards that you later observed after his magazine had been finished, also wearing the same kind of uniform?

MR STEPHENS: No, they were all wearing plain clothes.  He's the only guy that I recall actually wearing the uniform.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And you say it was a black and white uniform?

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Mr Stephens, I must put it to you that firstly black and white are not the colours of the ANC; and secondly that this man was not in an ANC uniform.

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

MR BERGER: There's no such thing as a uniform for the ANC guards.