Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-21

MR MBAMBO: I do not know why it is not in the statement but in the statements that I made to the ITU I mentioned it.

MR HEWIT: Mr Chairman, I have no further questions for the witness.  I simply wish to place on record as previously, the denial of those persons that we represent and their implication and any offences that he's testified to, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HEWIT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hewit.  Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mbambo, I want you to turn to page ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, maybe if you swop your mike with Mr ...[indistinct] it might be better because I notice that sometimes when two are on, you get this whistle but not always.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I want you to turn to page 8.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 8 of the affidavit or the record?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Page 8 of the record.

CHAIRPERSON: It's page 5 of your affidavit.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Paragraph 15.

MR MBAMBO: I've found it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'll read that paragraph for you.
"The strategy that was explained to me"
...[intervention] Mr Chairman, I've got a problem with this hearing aid.
PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Paragraph 15, I'll read it for you.  It reads
"The strategy that was explained to me initially by three officials, Captain Langene, Khumalo and Dalaxolo Luthuli was to eliminate and assassinate specific leaders of the ANC"
and then the next sentence continues:
"They also stated that we were not to injure or kill innocent people in the company of the person to be eliminated"
Now my question is going to be based on that last statement.
"we were not to injure or kill innocent people in the company of the person to be eliminated"
Do you see that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you agree and cherish this instruction?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you, when agreeing and cherishing this instruction, take it upon yourself not to do the contrary of your instructions?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you, in the operation you carried out, desist from doing the opposite of what was told to you?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Then how do you account, if that is the position, the operations in the shebeen in particular?

MR MBAMBO: The strategy changed and it was changed by Prince Gideon Zulu and the leadership of the hit squads.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now did you agree to the change of that strategy?

MR MBAMBO: We did no have a choice.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But did you find it in order?  I'm talking about yourself now.  Let's put aside the leadership instruction, did you find it in order to kill innocent people?

MR MBAMBO: I did not see them as innocent people.  In the IFP and ANC person was not an innocent.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I'll be specific with you, if you remember the time when Sergeant Khumalo was killed there was this Mabika innocent person who was standing next to Khumalo, how do you explain that one?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's right.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was there any establishment about Mabika, that he was an ANC member?

MR MBAMBO: No, Mr Magika's death was an accident.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And if then you are applying for amnesty for the killing of Sergeant Khumalo, you definitely are not going to include Mr Mabika as well?

MR MBAMBO: We also include him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Why would he be included because he was just an innocent bystander?

MR MBAMBO: We include him because we no longer had control of Nglagane Mpumatengua when he shot at Sergeant Khumalo.  And we did not see Mabika, myself, Xena and Bennie Mlambo.  The only person who saw him was Nglagane Mpumatengua.
	We only heard when we went to the police station to confirm if he indeed was dead and we discovered that it was not only Sergeant Khumalo who had been killed but that there were two people who had died and one of them was Mr Mabika.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If you were in the position of Mpumatengua, would you find any political justification in the death of Mabika?

MR MBAMBO: No, I would not.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: At the beginning of your evidence you testified that you knew Ginam Mkhize before 1992.

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was together in the police force, do you remember that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you know at that time about his covert operations?

MR MBAMBO: No, but I knew about the operations of the Israelites and Ginam was one of the people who had been trained in Israel as far as we knew at that time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What in particular besides Mkhize being a colleague in the police force, what in particular did you know about him?

MR MBAMBO: I didn't know anything else.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ...[inaudible]  Mr Chairman, if you could just bear with me, I'm trying to find something here in the pages.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Now you were approached by Ginam Mkhize, if I recall well, recruited by him?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And at the time when he was recruiting you he must have told you why he wanted you to join them?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And amongst others he told you that the killing of ANC members would be involved?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did he put any pressure on you to join them?

MR MBAMBO: No, the only thing that he said, he first explained to me that he had seen me on a number of occasions with Sepiwe Umvuyana and he enquired about my relationship with him, which I have explained to this Commission.
	From then he learnt that I was a staunch IFP member and he told me that he has been making his enquiries because what he was going to tell me must be something that he was going to tell to the right person because if he were talking to a wrong person he would have to silence me so that I do not tell others.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: At that time when he was saying this to you, had he already started telling you about their operations?

MR MBAMBO: No.  He first asked me about my relationship with Sepiwe and about my life.  He told me about the operations after he had said that if he had been taking to a wrong person he would have to silence me, but he said this jokingly.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When he said this to you that if he was saying this to a wrong person then you'd have to be silenced, didn't that trigger something in your mind as to something unlawful was going to be - or that you were going to be asked to do things that would not normally be done, especially when he spoke of the silencing?

MR MBAMBO: Honestly speaking I was already aware of what was going on and I was aware that there were people that were operating in hit squad activities and Ginam was known to be one of the Israelis.  So I realised that what he was telling me was in line with all of this.

MR HEWIT: Then we can safely conclude that you voluntarily joined the operations or joined the hit squad, there was no pressure or force on your part?

MR MBAMBO: No, not at all.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Which would mean that the instructions given to you later on by Dalaxolo Luthuli, by Langene and others, you were looking forward to such instructions voluntarily, not that if you do not carry them out something would happen to you?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You were told by Ginam and perhaps by Langene and Dalaxolo after you had been introduced to them, that your target or the opposition was the ANC?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you would kill the ANC?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You just told us that you agreed voluntarily to participate in the killing of the ANC?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If I say to you that you agreed to join and to kill, not because of any other reason but because you had this hatred against the ANC?

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.