Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-22

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Normally there would probably have been problems, problems in the sense that we would have had to report back, we would probably have had to be involved in a court case etc., but once again the operation was a covert one and I did not report anything to the politicians.  And at this stage I state that I drew my conclusions on the basis of what happened after this operation, that is why I'm saying they must have been aware.  I can't tell you now what kind of problems would have been created or not.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Erasmus, do I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that you don't think they would have been opposed to the elimination but they would have against the disclosure of that fact, of elimination?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct, it was a covert operation and nobody could disclose such an operation in those circumstances.  You can imagine for yourself what would the consequences have been if such action - the killing of people, had been made public.  You can imagine what the reaction and repercussions have been in Port Elizabeth.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let us for forget about reporting and making public.  Let us go back to the Joint Management Council.  As I understand your evidence, various people representing the various departments attended these meetings and at these meetings it would be said that people should be eliminated.  Did you not go back to the meeting of the same council and not make a report but merely say they could leave that matter it had been attended to, or something of that nature?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Chairperson, I must return to my original point, the word eliminate was used at times and there was no specific or...[inaudible] instruction for us to do such and such in a particular case, in other words, I did not go back to the committee to report back because there was no specific instruction emanating from that committee about that particular case.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that's why I want to avoid the word report because you have told us several times when Mr PHOSA has been questioning you, that you understood that they knew.  Well, it seems to me very odd if you're sitting in a Committee which is a secretive body where matters are discussed of this nature, that you don't tell them they needn't bother about it anymore because otherwise they might come at the next meeting and the meeting thereafter still saying that the person ought to be eliminated.  Surely you must have indicated in some way that they needn't bother about these matters?  By that I do not mean that you reported to them that you had killed or eliminated them.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: The term was used very generally, it was very generally used during meetings, no mention was made of specific cases or names and I did not as far as I can remember, I did not know that I reported it back to any committee.

ADV SANDI: Can you repeat that, are you saying you cannot remember if you reported this to any committee or structure?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: As far as I know, I did not report it anywhere.  In total I did not report this incident.  If I had done this, the first channel would have been to my headquarters, that would have been the first point of reference.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but you have said it was a covert operation, you wouldn't have told anyone anywhere about it, you would have kept it a secret, something to be known only by those of you who were involved.  Do you agree?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct Mr Chairman, it was just the few of us who are sitting here who knew about this, it was not for the eyes and ears of anybody else.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment at this stage.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: (s.u.o.)

ADV SANDI: Before we start, there's a second request that if there could be silence during the hearing.  It is difficult to understand the witnesses and their attorneys when there's disorder or noise from the floor.  Could you work with us please.  This is a very difficult job, we have to hear each and everything and hear it well from both the witness and the attorneys.  We have to ...[inaudible], thank you.

MR PHOSA: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  Just before the tea break you were as to whether you did not just perhaps mention this elimination, that the job had been done - without saying elimination, that job has been look after, you didn't mention that at the lower level at the other meeting and your answer was you hadn't done so - I think so, did you say so?  You didn't do so?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I mentioned it to nobody.

MR PHOSA: You see I wasn't having my earphones, did you say "I did do it"?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, I said I did not do it.

MR PHOSA: Let's cut out then the meetings with various other persons but let's talk about the channels within the police force.  Did you report to your seniors in the police force that you wanted to eliminate these two?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, I did not do that.

MR PHOSA: Now, sure - certainly now, really here where it is within the police force, you would have not the slightest fear that this might get elsewhere, isn't it?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman I repeat, the task was executed and the knowledge of this operation only I and the colleagues who were with me, we were the only people who knew about this.

MR PHOSA: I am going to do what is not really advocacy but for the sake of saving time, let me tell the purpose of my questions.  I am trying to find out and therefore want you to let the Committee know whether this action of yours was just a private venture of your side, the Eastern Province branch of the security police, the P.E. police, in other words whether it was intended to further the general advance for all policemen concerned, for all security police concerned - I'm giving you a background.
	And I want to suggest - which I'm going to do, depending on how you're going to answer, you did not tell even as much as report in advance to your senior policemen because you believed that even your senior policemen would oppose you action.  I'm being kind to you now, am I right?  You believed that if you report to them, they would say no, no, no, don't do that.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Because this was a covert operation, I did not report this matter.

MR PHOSA: Could you just cut out the word "covert" and answer the question.  Did you or did you not believe that your senior members in the police force would have said to you, you cannot and do not do that?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: At this stage I would say, they would have probably not have agreed with me but if you talk on a man to a man basis or convey it to a certain person, the answer could have been yes also.

MR PHOSA: You did not convey it to a single person amongst your senior policemen on a man to man basis, your intention to eliminate these two?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct, I did not convey this to any other people.

MR PHOSA: You did not as much as ask on a man to man basis to one of your seniors, whether it might be proper to do so?  I'm not saying that you would say: "Don't you think in the light of this, we should now get rid of Mthimkhulu and Madaka", you didn't do that?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, I did not discuss this with anybody.

MR PHOSA: The initial answer I asked you was, whether you reported it to one of your seniors and you said on a man to man basis you did not, now do - would it have - sorry, I'll rephrase that.   I'm dealing now about asking a question asking an enquiry, am I correct in saying you could easily have enquired on a man to man basis from your seniors, whether it was appropriate or not to do so - enquired, you could have asked on a man to man basis?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I could have asked it but I did not ask this from them.