Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-18

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I don't quite understand what it means to say a branch because I thought maybe if you're asking for a branch you're asking for someone you go and report to or you ask permission for whatever, if you had a problem you will go to that person so I know that Mduduzi and Bongani used to go to Siphiso Kabinde and report to him about incidents and decisions.

MR MAPOMA: And this Kabinde was residing in another area, is that correct?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Was there no leader in your area of the ANC, leader of the ANC?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: He was the prominent leader in our area, there was no prominent leader like Siphiso Kabinde.

MR MAPOMA: Did you ever become a member of the ANC?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes I am.

MR MAPOMA: When did you join the ANC?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: In 1991.

MR MAPOMA: How did you join the ANC in 1991?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: In our area we agreed that we as ANC we decided to take membership cards as members of the ANC in our area.

MR MAPOMA: I see.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mapoma are you moving onto something else?
	Where is your membership card now?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: At home.

ADV SANDI: Where was it issued to you, who from the ANC issued that membership card to you?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Siphiso Kabinde.

MR MAPOMA: Are you saying Siphiso Kabinde is the person who gave you the ANC card?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: No.  When we were renewing our membership cards we took I.D. documents and we gave them and then they took all those I.D.'s to Siphiso's office and then he brought back membership cards and they were distributed to us.

MR MAPOMA: Now when in your area it was agreed that you are going with the ANC were there no people who were elected to be the leaders of the ANC in that area of yours to your knowledge?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: It was Bongani Zuma, Mduduzi Jama and Kotene and Sibonele.

MR MAPOMA: I see.  Okay, now let us come to the place now.  Before you went you planned the attack didn't you?  You did plan the operation?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: It was the thirty of us in our camps when we were sleeping overnight.  Early in the morning before we could go back to our homes Mduduzi came and appointed that some of us were going to remain and then the rest will go back home and sleep or rest and then we were to go to the farm and take the guns.

MR MAPOMA: But you didn't go there to kill people but to get firearms, that's all?  Isn't that so?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes that is so.

MR MAPOMA: And to get firearms, nothing else?  Is that not so?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And when you were inside the house Mr Ferrero gave you the firearm, he surrendered the firearm to you?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.  Yes he pointed the gun to Mduduzi and Mduduzi took that gun.

MR MAPOMA: Yes did you ask for other firearms?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And what did you say?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: He only pointed to that one gun and then even when Mduduzi started searching the house for firearms he couldn't get any and then he took that only one and went outside.

ADV SANDI: And that was before you say Mduduzi started searching the house and he did not find any firearms?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: And that was before Mr Ferrero and Mrs Ferrero were killed?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I had already heard a fun fire outside and I think one person had already been killed outside.

ADV SANDI: Yes but that was before Mrs Ferrero was killed when Mduduzi searched the house and he could not find any firearms?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes it was before.

MR MAPOMA: And you say after Mr Ferrero showed you the firearm Mduduzi took the firearm and you went out, is that correct?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And on your way out having got the firearm you now showed Mrs Ferrero?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: As we were leaving and I was getting nearer to Mduduzi, Mduduzi gave his gun to me and he said to me I must shoot her.

MR MAPOMA: You will agree with me at this stage, Mr Jili, that Mrs Ferrero was killed and when she was killed that had nothing to do now with your receiving or returning firearms?  Correct me if I'm wrong?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes the truth is I couldn't see the reason why she was supposed to be killed because at that time when she was killed or when Mduduzi instructed me to kill her we had already received the gun and ammunition.  I don't know why Mr Mduduzi said she must be killed.

ADV SANDI: In other words you're saying it was not necessary at all for Mrs Ferrero to be killed at that stage?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes it wasn't necessary at all.

ADV SANDI: But was she not killed because she happened to know Mduduzi?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.  Later when we asked Mr Mduduzi why he instructed me to do so Mduduzi did say that sometimes he goes there to buy cattle and Mrs Ferrero may or might recognise him later.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you wear anything over your faces at all?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: No we had nothing.

ADV BOSMAN: Didn't Mrs Ferrero know you?  You'd worked there as a casual labourer?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes maybe but she was old, I didn't have a problem with that.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Ferrero, did he know you?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: So when you went there did you expect them to know you?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: It wasn't easy for them to recognise me because it had been a long time since we'd worked there.

ADV BOSMAN: When did you last work there?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: It has been a long time.

ADV BOSMAN: But just an indication, how old were you when you last worked there?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: In 1991.

ADV BOSMAN: So why didn't you cover your face for in case they recognised you?

INTERPRETER: I don't think he understood the question.

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I was 17 or 18 years when I last worked there.

ADV BOSMAN: And how old were you when they were killed?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: 19 years.

ADV BOSMAN: So that is not such a long time, so why did you not take precautions and cover your face so that they would not recognise you and give your name to the police?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I think it is because we took it for granted that they were elderly and it wouldn't be easy for them to recognise us.

ADV BOSMAN: Did they recognise you?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes they did.

ADV BOSMAN: Isn't that why you killed them?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: No, that's not the reason because as we arrived Mduduzi was already in front and just started firing.  I don't know what happened but then he started firing and the person was lying down.

ADV BOSMAN: Sorry for that long interruption Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Thanks ma'am.
	Why was Mr Mbaba Mtola killed?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I don't know what happened.  Mduduzi was in front and I was just following from the back, I don't know what happened there.

MR MAPOMA: Was he killed whilst you were still approaching the house?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: So when you heard a gun fire outside when you were still inside the house Mr Mbaba was already shot, is it not so?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Mtola was killed just as we were approaching, in fact as soon as we entered the yard.  He was killed first.  I wasn't there, I was in another place so I didn't see him being killed.

MR MAPOMA: Now on your way when you left the place you had two radios, is that correct?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: No, we didn't have radios.

MR MAPOMA: Now when you were leaving did you take any radios from the house?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes Bongani took radios.

MR MAPOMA: There were two weren't there?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And a bag?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: And a suitcase?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Inside the bag was there any money?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: No there was no money.