Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-14

UNKNOWN: He had an arm with him. Is that correct, a firearm?

MODISE MOLEFE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And you saw him standing up and firing a shot at the crowd is that correct?

MODISE MOLEFE: I think the question must be asked to Mr Llale.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you see?

MODISE MOLEFE: He shot.

UNKNOWN: I beg you pardon. You saw him firing two shots?

CHAIRPERSON: Either he saw or he heard him. Did you see him fire?

MODISE MOLEFE: I heard him fire.

CHAIRPERSON: He heard him fire.

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Didn't you see him firing?

MODISE MOLEFE: If I can recall very well I heard him firing. If I can recall. I might not be sure.

UNKNOWN: Mr Neo Potsane was also on the parapet is that correct?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: He had a firearm with him, is that correct?

MODISE MOLEFE: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Did he also fire at the crowd?

MODISE MOLEFE: I heard him fire.

UNKNOWN: You didn't see him fire is that correct?

MODISE MOLEFE: I cannot recall now but I heard him firing.

UNKNOWN: You cannot recall that you saw him firing? May I refresh your memory from the record at the inquest hearing and I want to refer the Committee at page 2973 of the record. And I want to read to you what your evidence was. And then I want a reply from you please. And I am referring you to round about line 12 at page 2973. Have you got it or can I read it to you? I will read it for the Committee's sake also. Ms Voster was busy asking questions and I will repeat it to you
"Did you see Mr Moolman shoot?"
And your reply was:
"No."
Do you confirm that?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: The next question
"Did you see Neo Potsane shoot?"
Your reply was "yes." Today you say you cannot remember. Is that correct?

MODISE MOLEFE: I said I heard and I cannot recall. I don't deny it.

UNKNOWN: Ja but what is your evidence today Sir. Did you see him shooting or not?

MODISE MOLEFE: In the inquest I said yes.

UNKNOWN: What is your, sorry.

MODISE MOLEFE: And then bear in mind this thing happened four years ago. By the way I ask did he shoot or I heard him shooting even I am still asking myself. I agree.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman I just want to show to you and I am going to argue later on this that the applicant is not making a full disclosure and he is not revealing to you what he really saw.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) at one stage he said he saw him shoot. Today he says he heard him shoot and the fact of the matter is that there was this shooting. That is the fact of the matter.

UNKNOWN: I will argue on his credibility later on. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

UNKNOWN: Just another aspect I think it is common cause you had no licence for the AK47 and you not applying for amnesty in respect thereof is that correct?

MODISE MOLEFE: No comment to that.

UNKNOWN: I want to put it to you on behalf of the objectors that I appear for that they will deny that they had any firearms with them on that day and they will deny that they were any part of an attack on either you or Shell House or the leadership. Have you got a comment on that?

MODISE MOLEFE: I reject what your objectors says. We were
attacked and we would not respond that the way we respond. And tell your whatever that we are not killers. Emphasise that to them. Balance the story.

UNKNOWN: Do I understand you correctly that you feel that you exceeded the bounds of self-defence?

MODISE MOLEFE: Precisely. ...(inaudible)

UNKNOWN: And your reason for that?

MODISE MOLEFE: Perhaps the marchers were retreating and we continue firing at them. Hence in that sense we exceeded the boundaries of self-defence.

UNKNOWN: Did you see the marchers retreating when you were firing?

MODISE MOLEFE: I did not see them but according to medical evidence some of the marchers were shot at the back and this is not something that all go well in us. Hence we are here to say to them we went too far.

UNKNOWN: I have no further questions thank you Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chairman just a few questions to Mr Molefe.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Molefe at the corner, on the parapet at the corner of King George and de Villiers Street were you standing openly and openly carrying your AK47?

MODISE MOLEFE: I cannot hear your question.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: At the corner where you were standing on the parapet, that is the corner of King George and de Villiers Street were you actually standing there openly and displaying your AK47 openly?

MODISE MOLEFE: I was not displaying it. This is how it is carried. You know in that sense you know looking up.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Do you think that the marchers on that corner would have been able to see and the firearm or the AK47 that you were carrying?

MODISE MOLEFE: I don't know.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: How soon after you arrived at that corner did the firing start in your direction?

MODISE MOLEFE: They pause and then minutes, they pause for quite. It happened so quick I cannot recall minutes or seconds. How many minutes or how many seconds or how many minutes did they take.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The other ANC guards who were posted on the ground, could you see any of them from where you were standing?

MODISE MOLEFE: I am not going to respond to the guards which were based on the ground. I did not see anyone of them because I had to bow down and see. I can't in that awkward position.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: So therefore you would also not have seen if they were under any attack?

MODISE MOLEFE: I am not going to speak for the security personnel who was on the ground floor.

MR LAX: The question was; could you see whether they were under attack? Yes or no? Either you could or you could not.

MODISE MOLEFE: Your Lordship with due respect, with due respect. Here I am being fired at personally with an AK, here the particles you know fling automatically, we are being attacked. That is the reason that will be there. Whether we are up or on the ground. Whether those who were on the ground or those who were up but the general feeling is that we were being attacked.

MR LAX: So you formed an impression that you were all being attacked. Is that what you are saying?

MODISE MOLEFE: Precisely.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And haven't you already stated Mr Molefe that you couldn't see the security personnel who were on the ground?

MODISE MOLEFE: I cannot hear that (...indistinct)

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was it not your evidence just a few seconds ago that you couldn't see any of the security guards here on the ground?

MODISE MOLEFE: I said so.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you form part of any secondary firing?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Is it correct that as part of your application you state that you acted in self-defence is that correct?

MODISE MOLEFE: Precisely.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Once you jumped down to the floor of the parapet am I correct to say that you personally at that stage could not have been attacked by the marchers from the ground from where they were standing. Is that correct?

MODISE MOLEFE: I don't understand your question.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Once you reached the indent. I mean after you have jumped down and pulled Mr Llale down, once you were down on that floor you were actually protected. You were protected from any fire coming up from the marchers on the ground.

MODISE MOLEFE: Protected by what? Are you saying the wall?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is indeed so.

MODISE MOLEFE: You know a military attack whether it is a wall or not a wall, while they were firing with AKs whatever weapons even a bazooka can crack that wall. It doesn't mean that I am protected by that wall.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The objectors' on whose behalf I appear position is exactly the same as those of the other objectors and I therefore am not going to repeat it to you. I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN