Human Rights Violation Hearings — Ladybrand — 1997-06-26

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible) ... shot by Mr Mangese?

WITNESS:   Her name is Caroline.

CHAIRPERSON: What day was that?  Was that the Monday after the funeral?

WITNESS:   It was on a Sunday.

CHAIRPERSON: Your son was shot on the 9th of September.  Do you know what day of the week that was?

WITNESS:   They were buried on the second week after they were shot.  I can't remember on which day were they shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they buried on a Saturday?

WITNESS:   Yes, it was a Saturday.

CHAIRPERSON: And the day following, the Sunday following, your daughter Caroline was shot.

WITNESS:   You are correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was she badly injured?  How was she injured?

WITNESS:  When she arrived at Aliwal Hospital they managed to remove the bullet.

CHAIRPERSON: And did she then recover from that injury?

WITNESS:   Yes, she recovered, because she went back to her work.

CHAIRPERSON: Has she made a statement to the Commission, do you know?

WITNESS:   She is in Welkom.  She didn't give a statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know if Mr Mangese was ever charged for that shooting of your daughter?

WITNESS:   He was not convicted, Sir.  (Inaudible - end of Side A, Tape 2) ... the police were on their side.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that there was a close relationship between those members of the IFP and the police?

WITNESS:   Yes, the relationship was a strong one, because nobody listened to us, but those members of the IFP were removed from the township, they were sent to town to stay there.

CHAIRPERSON:   Why was that?

WITNESS:   I do not know why, because some of them even stayed at the police station.

CHAIRPERSON: Were some of their houses being attacked and burned so far as you can remember?

WITNESS:   Houses belonging to which side, Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Machona, Mr Mangese, and their fellow IFP members.

WITNESS:   No, there were no attacks.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why they were moved into the town?

WITNESS:  I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Ratefane, the hospitals that your son-in-law and your son were taken to, and your daughter - you referred to the Aliwal Hospital.  Is that - where is that hospital?  Is it in Aliwal north?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's the hospital at Aliwal North.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you have any documents from that hospital which will let us go back there and look at the records of the treatment or the causes of death?

WITNESS:   I do not have any document.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Ratefane, you mentioned that your son was assaulted after the funeral.  Just briefly when did that happen and who assaulted him?

WITNESS:   Maridi assaulted him because the comrades were picked up and they were taken to the police station to be assaulted.  We do not know the reason why.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible) ... Maridi?

WITNESS:   Maridi is a member of the CID from Zastron.

CHAIRPERSON: How badly was your son assaulted?  Was he injured quite badly?  Did he have to see a doctor?

WITNESS:   He was detained during those days and I went to the cells to give him the food.  I told them I wanted to see him.  They refused.

CHAIRPERSON: How long was he detained for?

WITNESS:   He was given a free bail and he was discharged because he was still a student.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, how long was he in custody for before he got bail?

WITNESS:   He spent a week.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether he appeared in court during that week or not?

WITNESS:   Yes, he appeared before the Court and he was given a free bail.

CHAIRPERSON: After a week.

WITNESS:   Yes, that was after a week.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, people are supposed to appear in court within 48 hours normally, in other words within two days, not a week.

WITNESS:   It was after a week, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was he charged with, do you know?  What was the case against him?

WITNESS:   They said he took part in the killing of Dithoti's wife.

CHAIRPERSON: Dithoti, is that the name of the person?

WITNESS:   Dithoti is the surname, I do not know the first name.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is Dithoti, or was he?

WITNESS:   Dithoti was a councillor.

CHAIRPERSON: And when did his wife die?

WITNESS:   She was killed the Sunday after the funeral.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know how she was killed?

WITNESS:   I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: So was there quite a lot of violence after these funerals - killing and counter killings, and attacks?  Did things get quite bad?

WITNESS:   I do not know were they counter attacks or what.

CHAIRPERSON: But did things get bad in the township for a while?

WITNESS:   Yes, the situation was not normal.  Instead it worsened.

CHAIRPERSON: How long did that go on for approximately?

WITNESS:   I do not remember, Sir, for how long was the situation bad.

CHAIRPERSON: Were any other councillors killed, or their families killed, that you can remember?

WITNESS:   No, I can't remember of any.

CHAIRPERSON: And you can't remember whether any of their houses were attacked?

WITNESS:   They were not attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: And were any other comrades killed or injured after that?

WITNESS:   Nobody got injured thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mrs Ratefane, thank you very much for coming in to tell us that story.  We can see that it was a painful experience for you to talk again about the death of your son.  It's never been resolved.  The people who shot him and your son-in-law have never been charged, they've never been convicted, and it seems as though this is the first time that you have ever had an opportunity to come forward in public and tell the story about your son and your daughter's husband, and your daughters, Mzwakhe and Caroline, who were also shot.  The story that you have told is similar to other stories we have heard in other parts of the country, where councillors who sat in councils which were established and set up by the Government were not accepted by the people, and we've heard in other parts of the country that there were frequently conflicts between these councillors and residents of the township.  And from what you have told us the council members in this township at Rouxville were members of the IFP, and that they enjoyed a very close relationship with the police, and from what you have told us it was two of these councillors who shot and killed and injured members of your family.  We don't know why these cases weren't properly investigated.  We will try to get hold of these documents from the police station to see what sort of investigations were done.  We know that it's very difficult for a mother to come and talk about the death of her children, and we thank you very much for being brave enough to come here and tell us that story, and we hope to be able to give you some information about why your family members died in this way.  So thank you again very, very much for coming in an telling us your story.

CHAIRPERSON: /CHAIRPERSON

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mrs Nche, can you hear me, can you understand me?

MANTHIBI ROSIE SELEMELA NCHE: Good morning, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You also have come from Old Location in Rouxville, and you have come to talk about the day in 1990 - sorry, in September 1990, it seems shortly after the incident which the previous witness told us about, when your house was burnt down.  And before you tell us that story please can you take the oath.  There's no need to stand up.  Do you swear that the evidence - sorry, your full name is - is it Manthibi Rosie Nche?

MANTHIBI ROSIE SELEMELA NCHE: You are correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And is your married name Selemela?

MANTHIBI ROSIE SELEMELA NCHE: You are correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Which name are you known by, Selemela or Nche?

MANTHIBI ROSIE SELEMELA NCHE: All the names, Sir.

MANTHIBI ROSIE SELEMELA NCHE: (Sworn, States)  (Through Interpreter)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax will help you now.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.  Good morning to you again, Mrs Selemela.

WITNESS:   Good morning, Sir.