Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

WILSON J: There were two Okapi knives and one large-bladed sheath knife, is that so?

WITNESS:   There were four.  There were three Okapis and one other.

WILSON J: Are you sure of that?

WITNESS:   I am sure, Sir.

WILSON J: And having then stolen these goods which you've told us about you went to report back to Dirk Coetzee, is that so?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct, Sir.

WILSON J: And you've told us you went to C R Swart Square, where he was.  Did you meet him there?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir.

WILSON J: All four of you?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir.

WILSON J: Where did you meet him at C R Swart Square?

WITNESS:   In his sleeping quarters.  I cannot remember exactly where that was.

WILSON J: Are you sure of that?

WITNESS:   Yes, I am sure about it.  I think it was something like a pub.  I cannot remember too well.  It was something like a pub.

WILSON J: (Inaudible) ... pub that he was sleeping in?

WILSON J: /The pub

WILSON J: The pub was next door to where he used to sleep, but I cannot remember if we met him at the pub or at his sleeping quarters.

WILSON J: You heard him yesterday giving evidence saying he met you in a pub at 10 o'clock, all four of you were in the pub when he arrived there, didn't you?

WITNESS:   I heard him, but I am not sure about it because I cannot remember it as clearly as he does.

WILSON J: You say this was at C R Swart Square, the police station.

WITNESS:   The reason I say it was at C R Swart is because that's where we gave back the vehicle.  Where we went to - and furthermore I cannot quite remember.

WILSON J: How is it that you can't remember?  After having committed a brutal murder like this, and going back to report to your commanding officer, you can't remember where you went?

WITNESS:   It's a long time ago, and what I remember is what I was sent to do, firstly.  What happened thereafter, and whatever else transpired, I cannot remember in as much detail because I had not recorded any of these events to refresh my memory at a later stage, you know, to be able to know what happened thereafter, and where it happened, and so on and so forth.

WILSON J: Thank you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you say that when you went to Vlakplaas you were told initially that you were to help in identifying ANC members or ANC cadres?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, what?  Were you to identify ANC cadres, in other words people - ANC Umkhonto we Sizwe members trained outside and then coming into the country?

WITNESS:   Yes, those were the ones that were to be - that were identifying people, not me.  I was accompanying them.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: /Just tell

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Just tell me what were you told you were going to do when you were taken to Vlakplaas?

WITNESS:   As I have said I was fetched by Colonel Baker at the college and told that I was going to work at Vlakplaas at Security Headquarters.  He did not say anything about Vlakplaas.  When I got to Vlakplaas I worked for about two to three days at the headquarters, where were packing files.  There were three of us from the college.  And therefrom we were taken to Vlakplaas.  At Vlakplaas we found Schutte and the others, and they told us that we were going to stay there.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: It is your evidence that when you were taken to Vlakplaas you were not told the purpose of being taken there.

WITNESS:   We were never told what was going to happen there.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Because I had a note - I suppose you'd say it's incorrect.  I had a note here when my brother here to my right asked you a question.  His first question is that when you went to Vlakplaas you were to help in identifying ANC members.

WITNESS:   You are told when you are about to do something.  You are not told beforehand so that you have information for a while.  You are told at the time you are to execute something.  So if you are to go out with askaris you are told before the time.  But I mean long before then, while you are at the farm, you are not told that you are going to do such things, or go out with these people until such time as an instruction is to be executed.  Then only are you told about it.

WILSON J: (Inaudible) ... evidence-in-chief was that he said, "When I left with them I was told they were going to identify their former Comrades."

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So your evidence is then that you would be

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: /on occasions

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: on occasions you accompanied the askaris as they went about the business of identifying ANC members.

WITNESS:   That is correct, Sir.

UNKNOWN: Mr Nofomela, in your evidence you seem to state that you are the one who brought Joe Mamasela to Durban.  Would I be correct in stating that?

WITNESS:   I remember it was such.

UNKNOWN: You heard the evidence of Mr Coetzee, which was to the effect that a Sergeant Koos Schutte, a mechanic and foreman at Vlakplaas, is the one who brought Mr Mamasela to Durban.  So you are the one who brought Mr Mamasela, and not Sergeant Schutte.

WITNESS:   I remember it being myself.

UNKNOWN: Can you explain to us why you chose to execute the killing of Mr Mxenge at a stadium?  Was there a particular reason behind your selection of that particular place?

WITNESS:   As I have said Brian Ngulungwa was the person who knew the area very well, and he chose that we should go there because there was not going to be any disturbance.

UNKNOWN: Had you not previously gone to the stadium, as you had done with Mr Mxenge's place of work and his home, to conduct surveillance?

WITNESS:   I cannot remember us going there.

UNKNOWN: How many operations had you been involved with of this nature prior to the killing of Mr Mxenge?

WITNESS:   I trust that it was the first one.

UNKNOWN: Were you given any instructions with regard to what was to happen to the car after Mr Mxenge had been killed?

WITNESS:   It was said that if we could bring the car we should.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: /MR DE JAGER

MR DE JAGER: What happened to your bakkie?  Where did you leave that, or did somebody drive it to the scene?

WITNESS:  It was driven by David Tshikalanga from Umlazi to the stadium, and from the stadium to the courtyard at C R Swart I drove it.  Joe and Brian were driving Mr Mxenge's vehicle.

WILSON J: Who drove it to the stadium?

WITNESS:   David Tshikalanga was driving the bakkie that we had travelled in to the stadium.

UNKNOWN: Can I just make one inquiry?  Did Mr Coetzee at any time ask you about the extent of Mr Brian Ngulungwa's participation in the murder of Mr Mxenge?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir.

UNKNOWN: And what did you tell him?

WITNESS:   I told him that Brian was holding the Makaroff that I had, and that he did not stab anybody.  That is the report that I gave him.

UNKNOWN: Had Brian been given an Okapi or a hunting knife which he could have used if an opportunity had presented itself on Mr Mxenge?

WITNESS:   Yes, he was.  He did have a knife.  There were enough knives for us all.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Nofomela.

MR DE JAGER: What happened to Brian otherwise?  Was he demoted, or what happened to him?

WITNESS:   I do not understand the question.

MR DE JAGER: Well, Brian didn't participate in the killing, so he didn't carry out the order insofar as the killing is concerned.  Did they do anything to him apart from not giving him R1 000,00?  Was he demoted, or transferred to another section, or did he stay on at Vlakplaas?

WITNESS:   So he remained at Vlakplaas.  I do not know if he was demoted or anything.  I don't know anything about that.

MR DE JAGER: /MS KHAMPEPE

UNKNOWN: Mr Nofomela, do you know who drove the car from C R Swart Police Station to somewhere in Golela where it was ultimately destroyed?

WITNESS:   According to information that I got from Dirk Coetzee long after this incident he drove it.

UNKNOWN: (Inaudible) ... to drive it to Golela?

WITNESS:   No, it was not me.