Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-26

MS PATEL: Okay.  Can you tell us who threw the hand grenade into the children's bedroom which was - let me just confirm, give me a moment please, thank you.
	The children's bedroom was in fact the first point of the attack.  Can you tell us who threw the hand grenade into the children's room?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: It's myself.

MS PATEL: Okay did you know whether anybody was in that room or not?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: I did not.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Do you know who threw the petrol bombs into the living room, what was known as the living room of the house?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: It was Jabu.

MS PATEL: Okay, now did you have a Jabu in your unit as well as Mr Dolo in his unit because if I recall correctly, Mr Dolo had said that he was with Roger and Jabu when they were at the third house that he referred to that they attacked.  Now which Jabu are you referring to, is it the same person?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: What Mr Dolo said was that we were four members in this unit and then we split into two so Mr Dolo went with Roger and then I went the other way with Jabu.

MS PATEL: I'd like to put to you that Mrs Pienaar who was in the house that evening denies that she or anybody else from that house that fired on you and Jabu?  What is your comment on that?  Sorry is there a problem with your headset?  No?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: No, I understand your question well.  What I can say is that what is important that we were shot at and he's aware of that, I'm hundred percent sure about that, that we were shot at.  She is also aware that sky elements were used and they were aimed at us.  Maybe when she says that she did not fire, maybe she can tell this Honourable Committee about the information regarding the person who shot at us.  I believe that I came here to tell the truth and I think she also came here to tell us the truth.  She can tell this Committee who shot at us, if those shots were not coming from her house.

MS PATEL: In your evidence earlier on, I speak under correction Honourable Chairperson, was your evidence not that you fired at from that specific house?

CHAIRPERSON: No I think it was, if I understood it correctly, it was in that - let's put it this way close, I think the word that was used was close to the house.

MS PATEL: I'd also like to put it to you, Sir, that if you had reconnoitred the area on an ongoing basis and until at least a week beforehand as you had said, and if your sources could be relied on, you would have been informed, Sir, that Mr Roos who was living in that house had in fact died a week before this attack?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: I will explain this, concerning the information that we received, there were not contracted to Apla, they were not members of Apla, I used our agents but because I wanted information and there are many ways of getting information.  You may get it directly, you may also get it indirectly so they were doing that unaware that they are providing vital information which may be of use to me as an Apla member or Apla in general so I am trying here to dispel the belief that I once during the course of this hearing said they were reliable informants or whatever.  I only indicated here that I provoked them verbally, I used to talk with them and during the course of talking I came to get the information as I have said here.  Thank you.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, grant me a moment please?  Honourable Chairperson, there's just two aspects, the one is was the home reconnoitred that specific evening of the attack by yourself.

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Before or after that?

MS PATEL: No before the attack did you reconnoitre the house that evening, the evening of the attack?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: It was not necessary for us to reconnoitre that house specifically.

MS PATEL: Can you tell us how long before you attacked the house did you arrive at the house?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: I cannot be sure about the time but it can be between thirty to sixty minutes that can be the time that we spent before the attack.  We were not reconnoitring, just observing the movements of the people who were staying in that area but we were on the other side of the road.  I'm not sure about the time, it can be between thirty to sixty minutes.

MS PATEL: Did you by any chance see that there were other people at the house that evening about an hour before the attack and that people were coming and going from that house that evening?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: No, I don't remember seeing other person coming out or going into that house.

MS PATEL: Alright.  Then just one final thing.  Did you intend to kill the occupants of that house, was that your intention when you went there?  What was your intention, to merely burn the place or was it to kill the people or both, specifically what was it?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: The same as asking me whether I was there to kill or I must say in any way killings were possible and of course injuring peoples were a possibility too but in an event of course I did expect some killings, and unfortunately there were none.

MS PATEL: Did you say unfortunately there were none?  Yes it is in fact unfortunate for you because Mrs Pienaar says as she was trying to flee the house through the back with her two children that even after the grenade was thrown, the petrol bombs were thrown and shots were fired at the house, they were in fact also shot at once they were trying to escape from the house and managed to get into the neighbour's premises.  Thank you, Sir, I have no further questions for you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mrs Pienaar is there anything further which you wish to add?

MRS PIENAAR: Not at this stage, I'll get a chance when I give evidence later of what happened, thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes just two questions.  The rooms, on what basis did you decide which rooms to attack?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: There was no specific pattern in identifying the rooms that we were going to attack, it just happened that I threw it in that front room and the Molotovs were also thrown in other rooms, it just happened when we arrived, we never had any pattern or a plan in that we made beforehand.

ADV BOSMAN: And then just clarification on the role of Mr Dolo, what exactly was his role to be when you arrived at this house where you attacked?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: They were giving us a cover up in other words they were our security.  They were also helping us with observations as we undertaking the attack they will observe what is happening on the neighbourhood.  If there was something happening from the neighbourhood then they will respond to that.

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: And when they fired was that in response to anything in particular, can you say or can't you say?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: May you please repeat the question?

ADV BOSMAN: At the time when Mr Dolo and Roger when they fired, there was evidence that they fired shots or that they threw a grenade from the bridge, was that in response to something, can you say?

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: Yes that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: What was it?