Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I think that anybody, if I may just sketch a scenario, a person like you, Mr Yengeni, or any other one of the cadres, that had left the country for military training, then infiltrated with a specific reason to overthrow the government of the day, to convince any one of those persons after arrest to throw his whole life and doctrine and his train of thought or his way of life and what he had given up for by leaving the country, by speaking to a policeman for 10 minutes and then all of a sudden saying I will go and fetch my ammunition, and my weapons and all my cadres because you have politically motivated me within 10 minutes to change my views and what I would want to do with myself.
	Unfortunately Sir, those methods were used by me as a foot-soldier.  I don't think anybody of average intelligence could not see that some or other form of duress was being used.

MR KRUSE: I come from a Security background too, I was involved in our military structure and in our Security structures.  We had a policy as an organisation, we have a policy as a military organisation and a policy as a Security organisation, and we act within that policy.
	Anything outside of that policy, you are on your own.  You would not be able to say that you had political motivations when you acted out of the policies of the organisation you represent.  Now, what I am trying to get at is, I heard leaders of the National Party speak on the issue.
	I have heard the leadership of the Police on the issue and what comes out to me is that there was no clear instructions that people should be tortured.  Now, I am trying to get in my mind clarity, where does the political motivation come from?
	If there was no authority on the issue, how do you now say it was politically motivated?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Sir, blame it then on my ignorance, because I can definitely say there were no written instructions in police manuals, that said this is what you can do.  I do know and as I have tried to explain before, that the mandate of the foot-soldier was to glean that information as soon and as fully as possible, by let's say the unwritten word of any method.

MR KRUSE: So the means justified the ends, it didn't matter?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: In a nutshell, yes.

MR KRUSE: Thank you.  Now, I want to come to the system you people used, because you seem to testify to say that people were tortured for half an hour, they were taken for nice drives.  You create the impression that we had, Section 29 was quite nice.
	I mean if I just listen to you on the evidence and I was not there, it would be the impression that it was quite a holiday.  I mean most people would want to go there.  And I don't think that is the correct impression that should be created here, I think?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Mr Commissioners, I think when I spoke about that, was the special relationship I was trying to convey, between me and Mr Forbes.  I don't think anybody else went on a trip anywhere with me.

MR KRUSE: But you see ...

ADV DE JAGER: Wasn't this a, sorry, wasn't this a method in fact to convince people, listen I have assaulted you now, but if you cooperate, look I can be nice?  And to convince him to cooperate with you?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Methods like that had been used Sir.

MR KRUSE: But is that not your system you used, the  good boy (indistinct) tactics?  The issue I am always saying to people, if you don't cooperate, you have a choice to be treated like an animal or like a human being, it is constant throughout your interaction with all people that I have met, including myself.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR KRUSE: So either you take us out and we must speak to you.  If we don't do that, our choice is we go back to our room with a wet bag, those are our choices?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct, Sir.

MR KRUSE: Okay.  You spoke about your reputation which you had to uphold.  What reputation is this and where does it come from?

CHAIRPERSON: His reputation as an effective operative, in other words he did his job so well, that everybody in his Police Force recognised him as being an effective interrogator.

JUDGE WILSON: I think it was the other way, wasn't it?  The impression he created on the people he was interrogating, it was that because that was the reputation you were asking about, wasn't it?

MR KRUSE: Yes, and to produce that Judge.  What I am trying to get at, I know and it is common knowledge in the police, what reputation Jeffery Benzien has.  He is an expert at torture, it is common knowledge that he is an expert at torture, and that is the reputation I want to get from him.
	We are not talking about effective interrogation, I know what interrogation is about and investigation.  He is an expert at torture.  He never investigates any case.  He gets information through force.
	And I want to know how he managed to develop that relation, but I don't think you can, he mentions four, five people here, I don't think you build a reputation by putting a wet bag over four, five people, because in the police it is a general thing, wet bagging, it is not a new thing, so you would not develop a National reputation if you did it to four, five people.  I want to know where does the reputation come from?
	Maybe I can assist him if he doesn't know?  But I would like you to answer the question.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As I explained before Sir, there were difficult times and difficult methods had to be used.  I have put it to this court, I have used those methods.

MR KRUSE: Maybe let me pose the question, the question was earlier, when you were at Bishop Lavis you said you never used this method on anyone, is that still your evidence?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: As far as I can remember correctly.

MR KRUSE: Were there any court cases in which common law criminals accused you of using that method?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.

MR KRUSE: There were?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes.

MR KRUSE: And you lied to the court and you said you did not use the method?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: To which court?

MR KRUSE: In those cases, those cases of common low criminals while you were a Detective at Bishop Lavis?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Those allegations were made yes, normally by run of the mill criminals.

MR KRUSE: Are you suggesting, and when you testified in my trial within a trial against torture against me, is it not true that you also denied the allegation that you used the wet bag method?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct Sir, I denied that I used that method.

MR KRUSE: So you were consistent whether you were in the criminal cases or political cases, you consistently denied using that method?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Because of the ...

MR KRUSE: No, I want a yes or a no, did you consistently deny this method?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I denied it in your case, that is one of the reasons I am asking for amnesty.

MR KRUSE: Have you denied it in criminal cases?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Gentlemen, I don't know how to approach the court at this moment, I have been sitting here and I have gone through a jug of water.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you be very much longer with this witness?

MR KRUSE: I think I have got a lot of questions still.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got a lot of questions to ask?

MR KRUSE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, this might be a convenient stage to adjourn.  We will resume at nine o'clock tomorrow morning.
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