Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1999-02-02

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: He co-operated with the police so we were all in the car, we did not torture him, he just agreed to cooperate with the police but he first said that he had spoken with Brig Dingane.

MR SIBANYONI: And when Mr Gumengu alighted from the car and walked towards the donga did the deceased also -was the deceased not handcuffed, did he also walk freely following Gumengu?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: Yes that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Was it not strange to walk with him under those circumstances, a person who suspected to be having in his possession some arms or weapons?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: I have already said that I did not have handcuffs with me so I don't know whether Gumengu or Nogane had handcuffs with them but it was strange because this person was suspected as having arms but he was not handcuffed.

MR SIBANYONI: So the arrangement was that Gumengu would walk in front and he would be followed by the deceased?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: There was no arrangement, there were no plans, Gumengu just went out of the car because the deceased told us that we must stop in that place so there were no arrangements.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Shlobo, did the deceased disappear from you sight before you heard the shots being fired?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: Yes I couldn't see him because they were already in the dongas.

CHAIRPERSON: And at the time when you heard the shots being fired had the deceased already disappeared from your sight, you didn't see him any more at that stage?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So after he disappeared from your sight and he was running away, did you ever see him again after that?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: I saw him after he was released from hospital, we were staying in the same block in Butterworth so I would see him every day.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so I assume that on that same night you didn't see him again?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: No I did not see him again.

CHAIRPERSON: What did Gumengu tell you happened to the deceased?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: He said that Sthembele tried to grab his firearm from him, he then shot him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes they shot him and then what happened to the deceased, Mr Zokwe?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: I did not ask him.

CHAIRPERSON: So what did you think what was the position, did you think he was killed or did he escape?  What happened to him or did Gumengu tell you absolutely nothing about that?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: Gumengu didn't tell us anything but I had a feeling that he might be dead or he might still be alive.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you ask Gumengu where is this arrestee, this man that we had just arrested now, what happened to him where is he?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: I did not ask him, I assumed that he had left him in the dongas because he was coming from that direction.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you assume that Mr Zokwe was lying there in the donga either dead or wounded?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You left the whole scene and everything there and you went back to Butterworth?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: We first went to Norwood and Security Branch in Umtata where we dispersed after failing to find Tami Moweli.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you went to Butterworth?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: We all went to Butterworth, the people who were coming from Butterworth.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't bother to go back to the quarry?

VULENLELE CHRISTOPHER SHLOBO: I did not go back, they dropped me off at home.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No re-examination Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Shlobo, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mapoma, is that the only evidence that you're tendering?

MR MAPOMA: That is the only evidence Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Malan?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Chairperson, I would like to address you or the Committee briefly on the following.  I would like to start off with the last witness as such.
	Chairperson, with all due respect, it's my humble submission that this witness is neither convincing or trustworthy for various reasons.  There is on the probabilities that he sketched so many aspects that should have a red light somewhere and say this is so out of the ordinary that it cannot be taken seriously.  Here we have evidence or an experience policeman who arrested the person, who gave a mock charge of five or ten metres and then the rifle is not comfortable and he just leaves a terrorist?  His aim for arresting a person ended in 10 metres.  He heard a shot and he later said two shots.  His colleague emerges from the donga, he didn't ask questions, he didn't go to look.  One would have expected even from an innocent bystander to go and look at the scene.  That's at least what one expected.  
	The first thing that arises is the fact that his version is they stopped because Mr Zokwe indicated that this was the place where arms caches were supposed to be, Mr Gumengu, the first applicant, in the first instance of the attempted murder, indicated that he asked them to stop to relieve himself.  I do agree to a very big extent with Judge Miller that is also on the probabilities unacceptable to accept that a person would go 50 metres in the dark where all the persons are male, there's no reason to go 50 metres to relieve yourself, that doesn't sound on the probabilities if that's hundred percent correct.  But I can see no reason why Mr Gumengu should dish up a lie.  If that was the fact they were stopping for the arms cache, why would he try and say he stopped the car because he wanted to relieve himself?  He could have used that just as easy if that was the fact.  But what I would like the Committee to focus on is yes, there are some discrepancies, some minor, some not so minor but to focus the thing is, Mr Gumengu got instructions to eliminate Mr Zokwe, he tried to do so, he did not succeed in it and a second attempt was made.
	With regards to the second attempt, I presume that my learned colleagues would suggest to the Honourable Committee that both of the applicants would not fit in the ambit of the law regarding to the deed that has taken place due to the fact that they will probably argue that both of them suggested or even said in so much words that they're acting in self-defence.  I that was the matter and if that is the finding of this Committee then this application is out of the back door but it's my suggestion that the Committee must give thought that they were acting on instructions to eliminate him, that they created a situation where, which tantamount to the violation of human rights as they indeed testified, I won't labour further on this point and I'll leave the decision for your superior knowledge.  Thank you so much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Malan.  Mr Mnqandi?