Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-11-21

MS ANDERSON: And within those structures you had units.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you define membership again, please?

MS ANDERSON: Will I define membership again?

CHAIRPERSON: Of the ANC at that time.

MS ANDERSON: A person was a member of the ANC who was working within a unit, an ANC unit, attached to a specific ANC structure.

MR VISSER: You see, because Mr Berger only referred to political or military structures and this is really what this whole questioning is about because I was just going to put to you and I was leading up to doing that, there were also cultural structures and other structures.

MS ANDERSON: The cultural structures fell within the political overall structure.

MR VISSER: Yes, alright.  Now you were a member of MK.

MS ANDERSON: Correct.

MR VISSER: Did you know the identities of all the other members, or MK members in Botswana in 1985 around June?

MS ANDERSON: I knew a lot of them.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Can you tell us who the military representative in Botswana was at the time?

MS ANDERSON: There was a fellow called Victor who was the overall MK Commander.  I  fell within Ordinance Structures.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about Botswana?

MR VISSER: And who was your Commanding Officer in the Ordinance Section?

MS ANDERSON: I reported directly to Casius Maake, from Military H Q.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Have you heard of a person by the name of Tenjiwe Mtinso?

MS ANDERSON: I heard of her and I met her later, subsequently much later.

MR VISSER: I see.  And Thabang, Lambert Maloyi?

MS ANDERSON: Lambert Maloyi was at that point in charge of operations from M H Q.

MR VISSER: Was he not also the military representative of Botswana in 1983 to 85?

MS ANDERSON: He was the Commander of operations from M H Q.

MR VISSER: Not a military representative?

MS ANDERSON: He was the Commander of Operations.

MR VISSER: Do you have difficulty just answering a simple question?  Was he not also the military representative, I'm asking you.

MS ANDERSON: No he was, as I said, in charge of operations from M H Q.

MR VISSER: Did you know the location of all the transit facilities used by the ANC in Botswana at the time, in 1985?

MS ANDERSON: I only knew the ones which I was using.

MR VISSER: Yes, was the house where you stayed one of those facilities?

MS ANDERSON: No, it was not.

MR VISSER: Can you tell us which other houses were used?

MS ANDERSON: I looked after several safe houses.

MR VISSER: Yes.  The localities of those safe houses?

MS ANDERSON: I don't have the addresses now.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Can you connect persons to those safe houses, persons who lived there?

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's put it this way, make it easier for me.  Of those safe houses, were any of those attacked on the night in question?

MS ANDERSON: No.

MR VISSER: What about the house where George Pahle lived?

MS ANDERSON: George Pahle, as far as I was concerned, was a taxi driver and as Baleka said, a socialite.  I used to see him at digs.

MR VISSER: His house was not used as a transit facility?

MS ANDERSON: No.

MR VISSER: Would Ms Mbethe be wrong as far as you're concerned, or is it possible that his house was used at least on one occasions that she knows about, to accommodate a person, an MK person in transit to South Africa?

MR BERGER: She never said that Chairperson.  She was speaking about a house not in Gaberone at all.

MR VISSER: Chairperson the evidence of that witness was that George Pahle was sometimes asked to accommodate people in transit.

MR BERGER: She was not referring to the house in Gaberone and my Learned Friend is referring to that house.

MR VISSER: And ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger and I must say I speak under correction, it would certainly appear to us as if that was the case.

MR BERGER: No, she was not talking about that house.

CHAIRPERSON: Well she may not have been talking, but it didn't come out like that.

MR BERGER: She said so, she mentioned another place where it was.

CHAIRPERSON: What place?

MR BERGER: I was leading the evidence, I didn't write it down.

MR VISSER: And we didn't hear it, Chairperson.

MR BERGER: I can tell you she said it.  You can play back the record if you want.

MR VISSER: Anyway, I'm not going to argue, Chairperson, I don't need a concession from this witness in that regard, so I'll leave that.  And it is in this community, this tight-knit community in Gaberone, where you met people like Mr Mike Hamlyn and Mr Uriel Abrahamse, not so?

MS ANDERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Tell me and I'm not being flippant, this Mr Riaz Saloojee, is he also a sweet, loving person as far as you're concerned?

MS ANDERSON: Oh sure, he was my lover.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And he was a member of MK?

MS ANDERSON: Only just.

MR VISSER: Well, was he or wasn't he?

MS ANDERSON: He became a member while I was living with him.  He had previously been working in political structures.  I coached him and he started to work with MK.

MR VISSER: Can you give us the names of any other MK members in Gaberone in June 1985?

MS ANDERSON: Certainly I can.  A comrade with whom I worked whom we referred to as Fat Alan.

MR VISSER: What?

MS ANDERSON: Fat Alan.

MR VISSER: Alright, apart from Fat Alan, do you know any other MK comrades?

MS ANDERSON: No.

MR VISSER: That I find, with great respect, amazing.

MS ANDERSON: I knew a Gen Lambert Maloyi ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, I interrupted you.  Please continue.

MS ANDERSON: I knew him when he came through.  I knew Casius Maake who would come through.  I reported directly to M H Q, I did not report to the local MK structures.

MR VISSER: Yes.  I know now what you think of military intelligence and the police intelligence during that time, but would you say that they were entirely wrong in considering Botswana to be one of the main springboards for acts of terror against South Africa during that time?  Were they completely wrong?

MS ANDERSON: I would say probably about one fifth of the acts took place from Botswana.

MR VISSER: That's fine.  I'm not going to place figures on it.  I'm simply asking this question, was or was Botswana not one of the main ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: She's just conceded it, Mr Visser, even to the extent of one.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.  So when you say that the use of Gaberone, I take it you're referring to Botswana when you refer to Gaberone, was very limited, what did you mean by that?  The use by the ANC of Botswana as an infiltration route, that's what I'm talking about, I'm not sure whether we're talking about the same thing.

MS ANDERSON: For my purposes it was limited because I was involved with supply of weapons.

MR VISSER: I see, so from your point of view, from Ordinance point of view, it was limited.

MR VISSER: Alright, but from your point of view there were in fact weapons of war smuggled into South Africa?

MS ANDERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: On many occasions?

MS ANDERSON: No, few, that's why I said it was limited from my point of view.

MR VISSER: Oh I see, thank you.  Limited in that sense, not in the sense of a  ...(indistinct)

MS ANDERSON: Yes, we didn't have a big enough operation from there.

MR VISSER: Yes, I see, but not in the sense of ANC operations as a whole, that's not what you're referring to.  I'm sorry, I misunderstood you then.

MS ANDERSON: Okay.

MR VISSER: Alright.

MR VISSER: I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR COETSER: I have no questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR COETSER

MR CORNELIUS: No questions thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: I have no re-examination.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

MR MALAN: I just want to ask you one question Ms Anderson.  In paragraph 6 of your statement you relay your discussion with Mike, telling him to move out of the premises because the address was then well-known after the publicity.  Why did you do that?