Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... right at the beginning you stated that you are from a family highly religious, but not a political family at all, and that you never deliberated in such, and within a short space of time you are at Vlakplaas, there is no training, there is no nothing, but you tell us that believed there was a political - or you believed there was a type of war.  I cannot connect the two.

WITNESS:   I agree, Sir, with what you say.  I said that.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... told him you were never coached about it, or even perhaps brainwashed about it.

WITNESS:   Sir, at Vlakplaas - what happens at Vlakplaas is something that you cannot explain to people outside, how you could get out, and what you would believe and not believe inside, because you do not choose whether you should do something, or believe or not believe things.  I agree that I believed it.  I wasn't forced to believe it, but I had -I could not dispute it either in any way.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... political organisation did you belong then?

WITNESS:   I was not a member of any organisation.

MR MSHE: Will I be right if I state that you did what you did in the killing of Mxenge and other incidents simply because you were carrying out instructions or orders?

WITNESS:   Yes, I cannot argue with you there.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... when doing that you had nothing about any - you did not have any intention or idea of bringing about any political change whatsoever.

WITNESS:   Out of my own I did not even know him.  I was told and I was given instructions.  I was given orders, so I could not choose whether I wanted to or not.  I agree with you,

MR MSHE: /Sir.

MR MSHE: Sir.

MR MSHE: So it cannot be said in your application that what was done by yourself, particularly with the Mxenge matter, it was with any political objective.

WITNESS:   The way I was told was that there were political motives.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible)

WITNESS:   I believed it, but it was not my policy to go and look for the profile and ascertain the facts.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) .. if I state to you that you did what you did to Mxenge mainly to impress Dirk Coetzee, your commander, or the authorities.

WITNESS:   Besides that I was doing it - what you are saying is true as well, but also because I did not have any choice.

MR MSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR MSHE: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR MARAIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

WILSON J: Could I put something before ... (incomplete)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

WILSON J: We have been given a book called Evidence Book 3, which sets out the report of the Harms Commission, where they deal with evidence given by this applicant before the Harms Commission.  Is that evidence going to be made available, and if so should it not be put to the applicant?  It appears that he said a great - or several things to the Harms Commission which contradict what he said here, or supplements what he said here, and in fairness to the applicant should that not be dealt with, rather than it be introduced at some later stage?  I refer - have you got a copy of that?

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman, I am making use of the other
	/applicant's
applicant's.  I did not receive a copy.

WILSON J: Because I refer in particular to page 16, where, according to the record there this applicant travelled with Coetzee to Piet Retief in Mxenge's car - at the bottom of the page, the second to last paragraph.  Do you see it?

MR MARAIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I see that.

WILSON J: Page 20, in the third paragraph marked with a star, he appears there to have confirmed that Mamasela was taken to Durban by Schutte.  These are merely details, they're - but more important, perhaps, at page 22, paragraph C84, he says they were instructed to kill Mxenge in Pretoria on or before the 4th of November by Brigadier Skoon and Coetzee.  And finally at page 29, in about the fifth paragraph, the large paragraph, he there says,
"In evidence Nofomela ascribed the assault with a blunt instrument to the use or a wheel spanner.  What apparently happened was that a knife stuck in the deceased's body, the deceased extracted it himself and began to fight back.  Nofomela then fetched a wheel spanner from the car with the purpose of stabbing the deceased, but just struck him on the head."
Well, I think that those are matters that should be dealt with in evidence, and that he should have been questioned about.  It can, of course, be done later when a copy of the actual transcript of his evidence is available.

MR MARAIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Yes, I will attempt to deal with some of the contradictions now, although it's
	/not normally,
not normally, I think, procedural that it is dealt with in - in evidence-in-chief, but mostly in cross-examination.

WILSON J: In cross-examination.  I don't suggest ... (intervention)

MR MARAIS: And it has not been dealt with.

WILSON J: I don't suggest that it's your task to do this.

MR MARAIS: I will in brief deal with some of the aspects in re-examination if I can be allowed to do that.

MR MARAIS: FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARAIS

MR MARAIS: Mr Nofomela, you now heard it is pointed out that you went with Mr Coetzee up towards Piet Retief when the car was driven there.  What do you remember about this incident?

WITNESS:   I remember saying so.  The reason for me having said so is that there was no one with me when I was talking about what happened to Mr Mxenge, and I knew that whoever else was with me when I was given the instruction was going to deny it.  So, according to my knowledge Mr Coetzee told me where they were going with the car, and who they were going to meet, and so forth, and I merely completed the chain by knowing that I could point out where the car was taken and turned back, and not that I went to Bothas Hoep or Piet Retief or any other place with them.

MR MARAIS: Then you were also reminded now of your evidence before the Harms Commission with regard to your use of a wheel spanner during the attack on Mr Mxenge.  Can you remember that now?

WITNESS:   I remember that, Sir.

MR MARAIS: How did that occur?

WITNESS:   There was a time where David Tshikalanga stabbed him with a knife and it got stuck in his chest, and I remember it having been the

MR MARAIS: /knife that

MR MARAIS: knife that I was using.  David took it from me, and I didn't have anything, and then I went and fetched the spanner and I hit him on his head, and that is where he fell after he had taken the knife out of his chest, and he nearly stabbed me with it.  After he had fallen I remember Joe and Tshikalanga going to him, looking for the knife that he had, and I went back to the car.  When I went back to the car - coming back from the car towards them I met them on the way back and they said we must go.

WILSON J: Why didn't you tell us that?  Weren't you told by your counsel you had to make a completely honest disclosure to us?  Why did you not tell us this?

WITNESS:   Sir, I was asked questions and I was answering questions.  I mean I could not answer something irrelevant to the question that I was being asked.

UNKNOWN: Mr Nofomela, why was it necessary for you to go for the wheel spanner?  You have just given evidence that Mr Brian Ngulungwa was passive throughout the duration of the killing.  Why did you not take the knife from Mr Ngulungwa, why go to the car and take the wheel spanner to participate in the execution of Mr Mxenge?

WITNESS:   Sir, I thought that an iron was bigger, and it had been a long time since we were stabbing this person and he was still fighting, and the knife was taken, and I thought that if I hit him with this iron he would fall.

WILSON J: Why was your knife taken when each of you had a knife?  (Pause)  Why was your knife taken from you when your evidence is that each of you was armed with a knife?