Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-05

MR B WILLIAMS: You've said before in your evidence that you maintained contact over the three, four days leading up to the 3rd March.  Was that to ensure the co-ordination of Bellingan's plans with what he wanted you to do as well?

JIMMY MBANE: When you say about the - from the 3rd March, I don't understand you because the 3rd March is when the incident took place.

MR B WILLIAMS: Yes I said three or four days leading up to the 3rd March you stayed in contact with Bellingan to ensure co-ordination of his plans with what he required you to do, is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: So when Bellingan says that he never heard from you again after hearing from you approximately a week prior to the 3rd March, he is not telling the truth?

JIMMY MBANE: He is lying.  He is lying in the true sense of the word.

MR B WILLIAMS: Can you think of any reason why he would want the Commission to believe that he had lost contact with you for that week?

JIMMY MBANE: Maybe he knows, but he is lying because the day before the operation, I took him to the place where the incident was to take place.  I don't know what he is talking about if he says he didn't hear anything from me.

MR B WILLIAMS: I'm sorry, my Lord, I've got one or two more questions still, I may be about ten minutes still, it may be an appropriate time to adjourn

CHAIRPERSON: Very well we will adjourn until 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

JIMMY MBANE: (s.u.o.)

MR B WILLIAMS: (cont)
	Thank you very much my Lord.  
	Mr Mbane, I just want to come back briefly to the question of the weapons and the training.  Isn't it in fact the case that not only had you been instructed to arm this particular group and train them, but you were occasionally also instructed to use this very weaponry to shoot at the police?

JIMMY MBANE: That is pure lies.

MR B WILLIAMS: My apologies, could you repeat your answer, Mr Mbane?

JIMMY MBANE: When we given these, I was given all this heavy armoury in order to arm these people.

MR B WILLIAMS: Yes, but weren't you also asked at one occasion to even shoot at the police in order to prove your legend to the group?  Do you not recall?

JIMMY MBANE: That's true sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: Isn't that the incident with the Caspir where Captain Bellingan in fact instructed you to shoot at a Caspir in order to improve your legend?

JIMMY MBANE: It was my initiative to shoot that Caspir because these people were already trained and I could see that they wanted to shoot and that is when we decided to shoot the Caspir whilst it's doors were closed and we did exactly that, that is when our car was taken from us.

MR B WILLIAMS: You see, Captain Bellingan testified that he in fact said to you that you should do that type of thing, precisely that, in order to prove your legend or live out your legend.

JIMMY MBANE: That is not true, I took the initiative to do that.

MR B WILLIAMS: Was he aware of this?

JIMMY MBANE: He knew only in the morning.

MR B WILLIAMS: And that was because your kombi became bogged down, not so, after that incident?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: He never reprimanded you for using these very weapons that you had obtained from him on the police?

JIMMY MBANE: No he never reprimanded me.

MR B WILLIAMS: He never reprimanded you for potentially putting the lives of policemen in danger?

JIMMY MBANE: No he never reprimanded me.

MR B WILLIAMS: And the reason was because this was all to live out the legend not so?

JIMMY MBANE: That is correct, sir.

MR B WILLIAMS: Alright, I want to come back to one point regarding the ability of Bellingan and Liebenberg to arrest people.  Captain Bellingan has indicated that for a number of reasons, which I'm not going to repeat now, it was not possible for him to arrest anybody.  I want to ask you would you agree that since you had contact with this group that if he wanted to arrest them he could have arrested them with your assistance.  What do you say about that?

JIMMY MBANE: If he wanted to arrest them he would have done so with my assistance.  That is true.

MR B WILLIAMS: You will agree that this would have been possible without having to reveal your identity ?

JIMMY MBANE: It was possible sir, without the revelation.

JIMMY MBANE: Do you know of any attempt being made from the time that you informed Bellingan about this planned attack on the police bus, do you know of any attempt being made to arrest people in which you were involved?

JIMMY MBANE: No attempts were made.

MR B WILLIAMS: Are you saying to the Committee once again that the question of arrest was simply never contemplated by your commanders?

JIMMY MBANE: They never contemplated that.  If they wanted to, they knew where we were staying, they would have come and arrested us.

MR B WILLIAMS: It was put to you by counsel for Mr Bellingan that Mr Liebenberg had indicated that he didn't have any informers in that group at all.  Now I want to put it to you that when Mr Liebenberg testified at previous hearings of this Commission, he in fact said to the Commission himself that he had an informer in this group, other than you and Eric.  What do you say about that?  That must be so, not so?

JIMMY MBANE: There were only two people who knew about our whereabouts, who knew our whereabouts it was Liebenberg and Liebenberg.  It's possible that they are the people who sent the informers.

MR MOSES: Excuse me, my lord, the interpretation came through as the two people who were aware was Liebenberg and Liebenberg.  I don't know whether there was a mistake with the interpretation.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were the two people?

JIMMY MBANE: It was Liebenberg and Bellingan who knew our whereabouts.

MR B WILLIAMS: You mentioned the fact that you saw a video subsequent to this operation.  Do you recall seeing a camera team on the scene on that day?

JIMMY MBANE: On which day?

MR B WILLIAMS: The day that this incident occurred.

JIMMY MBANE: I don't remember seeing a camera.  There was no chance, they were firing, there was no chance for me to check for the cameras.

MR B WILLIAMS: You have seen the video which the Committee has also had sight of, I take it?  The video taken subsequent to the incident occurring?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes I saw the video.

MR B WILLIAMS: Is that precisely the same video that you saw at the time, in other words immediately after the incident, the video that you mentioned you were shown after the incident.  Is that the same video that you've seen now that the Committee has access to?

JIMMY MBANE: The video that I saw today, I don't know it.  The only one that I saw is the one where the people were dead.  I don't know this video.  I don't know anything about it, I haven't seen it before.

MR B WILLIAMS: Right, perhaps you misunderstand me, I'm not talking about today's video.  There is a video which the Committee and all the legal representatives have had access to which is video taken after the incident, or allegedly after the incident had occurred.  Have you seen that video recently?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes I saw that video.

MR B WILLIAMS: Now, the question that I'm asking you is that the same video that you saw at the time of the incident itself?  I take it you saw a video then too, you mentioned that not so?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes that is the same video.

MR B WILLIAMS: Are you quite sure it is the same in every respect or are you not sure.

JIMMY MBANE: It looks like it's the same video.

MR B WILLIAMS: Do you recall there being a helicopter on the scene on that particular day, the day of the incident.

JIMMY MBANE: I ran away, I didn't see the helicopter.

MR B WILLIAMS: : When did you meet with Eric Maluleka again after the incident occurred?

JIMMY MBANE: Eric came to the house in Koeberg, he came with Bellingan and the others. He got me there, I was in the house already by that time.