Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-14

CHAIRPERSON: I think there is a fine line, for instance, I hear what you say and I hear what Mr Bizos says and I agree that he should not be on a short leash, but then in evidence like, "you know, it was me who wrote the letter", that is new evidence being introduced through the backdoor as it were.
	It is a fine line to be walked here, so we will listen, if the people want to object, we can take it as it comes.  But you are aware of the concern?

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairperson, can I ask my next question?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR WILLIAMS: I put it to you that the Kewtown Youth Movement did not have secret meetings, they had open, public meetings?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: According to the information that I had received, I deny that statement.

CHAIRPERSON: What in your view, Mr van Zyl, would be a secret meeting?  I mean because here was a meeting being held at the Early Learning Centre, at half past eight at night, we have heard that the soccer club was there, we have heard that the karate club was there, would you say that that was a secret meeting?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Mr Chairperson, I would say that the information at that stage had been that the Kewtown Youth Movement was affiliated to the UDF and accordingly, the UDF was affiliated to the ANC which was banned at that stage, and as a result of this, the meetings that were held, where acts of terror had been discussed, as the information that I had obtained indicated, were naturally secret meetings.
	It was not meetings that were open to the broader community of the Athlone vicinity.

CHAIRPERSON: But I mean if I am a member of the Rotary Club or the Round Table Club, I am not going to open those meetings up to the community, if you are a member of the golf club or any organisation, it is not - the fact that it is not a public meeting, does not mean that it is secret?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, that is so.  But I think I agree with that, but in cases where meetings were held, or are held, where acts of terror are discussed, I classify that as a secret meeting.  These were the terms that we used in the Forces.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Williams?

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you.  Mr van Zyl, I put it to you that our meetings were open to the public, any member of the community could attend if he or she wished to attend, and I will lead evidence to that effect if necessary.  Do you want to respond to that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That was not my information.

MR WILLIAMS: I put it to you that Mr Isgak Hardien never attended any of the Kewtown Youth  Movement meetings, do you want to respond to that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot comment on that.

MR WILLIAMS: Is it possible?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Probably possible.

MR WILLIAMS: Now, if it is possible, how would he know that we discussed sabotage and acts of terror, how would he know about that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Chairperson, that was the information that he obtained.  The specific way which he went about to obtain the information, I do not know.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you ask him?  Did you ask him how did he gather that information?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I might have asked him, but I cannot remember.

MR WILLIAMS: I put it to him that the Kewtown Youth Movement was not a new movement, it is another statement that you have put.  In fact Kewtown Youth Movement existed before the UDF existed.  Kewtown Youth Movement was according to my instructions from other members of the Kewtown Youth?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It is possible.

MR WILLIAMS: Formed in 1982, a year before the UDF was formed?  Now if you agree that that is the  case, then the Kewtown Youth Movement could not be a new movement formed specifically by the UDF and the ANC?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, I did not say that the Kewtown Youth Movement was a new movement, what I said is that it was an affiliate of the UDF.

MR WILLIAMS: Let us just go to the wording, page 108, Bundle A, the second sentence.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what page?

MR WILLIAMS: Would you mind reading that into the record for us?
MR VAN ZYL
"... it appeared that the UDF and ANC activists that were under Emergency Regulation limitations, and also banned organisation limitations, formed a new organisation by the name of the Kewtown Youth Movement."

MR WILLIAMS: What do you understand by the words "new organisation" in the contents of the sentence?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That it was a new undercover organisation for the UDF and it might have been that it was newly formed.

MR WILLIAMS: Now I have just put it to you that it was formed in 1982.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That might have been.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you agree with me.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot dispute that.  I mean I do not know when the organisation was founded.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay, Mr van Zyl, I can go ...

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something here.  To the best of my knowledge, the UDF was never a banned organisation?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I think ...

MR LAX: Towards the very end?

GEORGE BIZOS: ... because it had so many affiliated organisations, they banned the UDF towards, well I was in the middle of the Delmas trial which was in 1986, 1987, 1988, in the middle of that trial, probably in 1987, the UDF was declared an unlawful organisation, but not its affiliates.
	That was the legal position at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Bizos.  Sorry, I know that I have asked this before, but Kewtown, is that Kew?

MR WILLIAMS: Kew, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Notwithstanding that in your own statement it is typed "Q", the letter, town?

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairman, they use, the spell it interchangeably, it is spelt with a "Q" sometimes, and with Kew.

CHAIRPERSON: So, what is the proper pay, Kew?

MR WILLIAMS: Either way Mr Chairperson.  Mr van Zyl, I can go through the statement, allegation by allegation, I am sure I will illicit the same response from you.
	There is one statement, or allegation that I find quite curious, the one is that Colleen Williams, information came to your knowledge that Colleen Williams, that is a person who died in one of the bomb attacks, was a sister of mine, was a half-sister of mine.  Do you want to comment on that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That was information that was given to me.   Whether it was factually correct, I cannot say.

MR WILLIAMS: I put it to you that that information is absurd. Do you want to respond to that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That may be.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the sort of information Mr van Zyl, that one would expect an intelligence organisation to sort?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I would expect it like that Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: To verify?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes.  Yes, that is the case, I also find it strange that a lot of the information is acknowledged, even by Mr Williams.  I mean the information that we have received that the Williams lady was killed during a bomb explosion, where we had received the information that it happened during the placement of the bomb, and this is now factually acknowledged.
	But the fact that she was not a half-sister of his, is now denied.  Some of the information is correct, but it was not my function to verify it one hundred percent.

MR WILLIAMS: But that was common knowledge, that was common knowledge at the time.  Mr van Zyl, would you agree with me that it is easy to ascertain whether or not a person was detained by the Security Forces?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It could have been done.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chris Ferndale, I put it to you that he was never, ever detained by the police.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot comment on that.  I did not investigate that, to find whether he had been detained or not.

MR WILLIAMS: The part of the information that came to your knowledge was that Chris Ferndale was detained under the Emergency Regulations, not so?  You received that information?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I would like to refresh my memory in this regard, in the statement where the names are mentioned and exactly what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have a reference, Mr Williams?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, it is Bundle B, page 38.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Which paragraph are you referring to.