Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1999-10-19

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Crossley, is there anything else?

MR CROSSLEY: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.  May I just ask Mr Hlapo to elaborate on certain aspects, in particular in regard to the choosing, the choice of those people who were the victims of the violence on that particular day.
	Could you please elaborate.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: It will be known that on the 11th of August - let me first start back in 1976.  When the uprising started in South Africa, it was precisely because of the Afrikaans which was introduced to black schools.
	In 1980 in particular what had happened, during that year there were these events which political events and what had happened on that particular day on the 11th of August, an old woman which I don't known the woman, was assaulted in Nyanga Station in Guguletu, by a white policeman, which this policeman was very young to that woman.  And this was the day where we were supposed to hold a commemorative service at Nyanga East in particular.  So when the youth of that time got this report they were angry.  
	And it should be known that at that time every white man was an enemy to the black people and every white man which was seen around the area at that time, so he was a target.  So targets were not chosen according to military operations as it is known, targets were indiscriminate.  Every white man, as long a that person is white he will be attacked at that time.

MR CROSSLEY: Can you - in the record of the proceedings, as set out in the judgment of Mr Justice Williamson J at the time, there was a reference to an incident in which there was a stabbing of one of the victims.  Could you please elaborate on that.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Yes, Sir.  There is a saying and there was a saying even in my trial in court, that I personally took a knife from accused number 17 and stabbed Mr - between Mr Beeton and Mr Jansen.  I want to put it straight, I was there personally, I was involved in the accident, there was no knife involved there.  What I saw there it's stones and some knopkieries and some sharp instruments, but I personally I never took a knife from accused number 17 and stabbed one of the two victims which were attacked on that time.

MR CROSSLEY: I have no further questions at this time.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CROSSLEY

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Crossley.  Ms Patel, have you got any questions?

MS PATEL: I do, thank you Honourable Chairperson.
	Mr Hlapo, on the 11th of August there was a meeting at the church, can you tell us who organised this meeting?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: On the 11th of August, first of all in the Western Cape, or all over South Africa it is known, like in Jo'burg and Soweto, the 16th of June it's known that it's the day the youth started.  Those people who were operating on the bus boycott and myself involved, we went to the church and met spontaneously at the terminus and went to the church and said that this our day, we need do commemorate our fallen comrades, so let us go to the church.  We didn't have a specific venue, but because Mr Werner's church was so close to the terminus we went there.

MS PATEL: So who exactly is it that decided that everybody should go to the church?  Who decided that everybody should go to the church?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: We decided.

MS PATEL: Who is "we", Sir?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: I mean myself and some other people like accused number 17.

MS PATEL: And his name?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: In the name of Bongani.  He was there, but we were discussing as we were many there as a crowd, that we should take that church.  In fact, I personally came with the suggestion that there's a church next to us.  The church which were nearer to us, to where we were, it was the Dutch Reformed Church.  The Dutch Reformed we deliberately, in fact I deliberately said that they should not go to the Dutch Reformed Church because it is being associated with the apartheid regime.  So I said let us take the Assembly of God, instead of going to that church.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Sorry, accused number 17, what was his name?  What was accused number 17's name?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: ...(inaudible)

MS PATEL: You must switch on your mike please.  You can leave it on, Sir.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Sorry, sorry.  It's Bongani Mpondo.  Raymond Bongani Mpondo.

MS PATEL: Is it Richard?  Is it the same person?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Ja, ja.

MS PATEL: Richard Mpondo.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Sorry, the name was written wrong.  His real name is Raymond, instead of Richard.

MS PATEL: Okay, fine.	At that stage were you merely a supporter of the ANC or were you a member of the ANC?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Yes, at that time I was the supporter of the ANC and it should be understood every politician in South Africa becomes first, starts first from a black consciousness, which is more inclined to the PAC and then as years develop, or as you become more involved in the struggle, you develop and see that this position it's no more applicable, or it's no more factual, then you change your allegiance to another organisation.  Of which I did, because I realised that saying that the white people must go the sea, it's practically impossible.  In fact, it's a daydreaming thing, you can't take practically the white people to the sea.  As the PAC slogans or objectives, they believed that the white people should go to the sea.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, Ms Patel.
	What was your position in the ANC at that time?  Did you hold any leadership position?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Thank you.  At that time I was just merely a supporter, not even a member at that time, merely a supporter.  And a supporter, it's anything.  You can support an organisation without you being known by that organisation.  For instance, I was working very close with the later Oscar Mpetha, who died in the '90s.  So Oscar Mpetha was known as being an ANC member.  So I liked the ANC ideas because ANC believed in the non-racial society.  So that's why I said no, it is better as South Africans, to live together in peace and harmony.

MS PATEL: Mr Hlapo, can you tell us, if you were merely a supporter at the time and you didn't hold any official position in the organisation, on what basis did you take the decision that the crowd should move over to the church?

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: I repeat that at that time I was a supporter of the ANC and in the church when we took this decision that we must go an attack all government vehicles, we took this decision and then after taking the decision ...(intervention)

MS PATEL: Sorry, Mr Hlapo, I don't want to cut you short, my question was, on what basis did you take the decision that everybody should move over to the church?  Can we deal with that first, Sir, we'll come to the events at the church later.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: We took the decision on the basis of what had happened at Nyanga, in the morning of that same day.  I have said here when I started that a white policeman beat an old woman of 79 years old, at that time in 1980.  And in our culture you can't, being young as that particular policeman at that time, beat an old woman.  In our culture you don't even argue with an old person.  That went straight to the youth and the youth argued that this should be stopped.  The white people are doing this, we need to do something now.

MS PATEL: Did this discussion take place - you can leave your mike on, Sir, you don't need to switch it on and off.

JOHANNES AFRICA MASWENG HLAPO: Sorry.

MS PATEL: Did this discussion about the old woman being attacked, did that take place prior to the meeting at the church?