Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-09

PHINEAS NDLOVU: There is a cafe, it is a two-storey building and Mr Masupa works beneath the shebeen that is on top of this two-storey building. So whenever the trucks are coming, he would come out there and come out with the Right Gang members who used to be there and workers who were there.  So they would want us to get involved in a fight and that
knowingly at a time there would be plenty and at times they would assist as you would know that, as a result of this consumer boycotts, trucks had to go with guards and what-have-you.  So from our point of view, in our number we could outnumber and I would or disarm the guard whatever armoury is he having and effect that.  So he used to come out with his friends and the gang members who had no duty, but stayed right there to help and assist and get whatever they can get out of, as compensation for working in that area.

ADV DE JAGER: How many members were they?  His supporters, how many supporters or people were staying with him?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: It varied, but in the perspective of the cafe inside, usually there are three males who worked there to off-load and what have-you, and then  ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Give me an idea.  I know, but of his supporters that could gang up against your army of comrades?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: There would be plus minus 20.

ADV DE JAGER: And your comrades, how many were you?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: It depended on the day of how many are available at a time.

ADV DE JAGER: But you have hundreds of comrades, didn't you have?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, I have hundreds of comrades, M'Lord, but you would know we are covering a wide range of areas, so we are not despatched all of us in one area.

ADV DE JAGER: But if you wanted, in fact, if you wanted to bring them before the people's court and have a hearing, you could do so?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, we did, M'Lord, as I have indicated, that he has, if I haven't indicated, he has, as well, appeared before the people's court for a crime-related issue.

ADV DE JAGER: And what was the verdict?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: The verdict was guilty.

ADV DE JAGER: On what charge?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Assaulting a person who had been drinking on the upper level in the shebeen, and he took advantage of that man and we found that totally unacceptable, because he  ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Alright.  And what did you sentence him to?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: We sentenced him to sjambok.

ADV DE JAGER: How many lashes?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: We sjambokked him five times.

ADV DE JAGER: And on this particular day, why didn't you summon him to the people's court before deciding to burn his house?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: The nature of what he had done compelled us to take the step that would ultimately teach him a lesson,  because sjambokking repeatedly  would not have helped us.

ADV DE JAGER: But it wasn't his place that you were burning, it was his family's place.  He wasn't even staying there.  Or he wasn't present up to the time that you burnt
the house?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: To us at the time, it was one way of punishing people who had crossed the line and have shown that they are for the other side.

JUDGE WILSON: How old was he?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: M'Lord?

JUDGE WILSON: How old was he?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Hendrik?

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: My estimation would be around 20, 23 to 26, that is, I stand to be corrected on that.

JUDGE WILSON: And he did not live in this house, is that correct?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: We knew that it was his home there.

JUDGE WILSON: It was his father's house, where his family lived, wasn't it?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: And yet you chose to go and burn that house down.  Is that correct?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: That is correct, M'Lord.

MR CURRIN: In your evidence previously you said we decided to go and burn the place where Hendrik laid his head.  Those were your words.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes.

MR CURRIN: You meant that's where he sleeps, that's what you meant?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I believe we had this norm with us, that wherever he grew up or wherever his family was, that was his place.  So it is from that reasoning that we took this decision.

SISI KHAMPEPE: To your knowledge, Mr Ndlovu, where did
Hendrik Masupa live?  Where did he go to after work?  Did he go to his father's house?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: To my knowledge, yes, I knew it to be like that.

ADV DE JAGER: Where were you living?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I was living in fact, I had no stable living place, but my family was on the other side of the street.

ADV DE JAGER: On the other side of the street?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: So almost neighbours?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: You could say so.

ADV DE JAGER: You knew this family very well?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, M'Lord.

ADV DE JAGER: Were there children sleeping in that house?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Come again?

ADV DE JAGER: Were there children sleeping in that house?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: In fact, that house, it is divided into two.  So I wouldn't know if there were children who were sleeping in the main house, because there was a house, a garage that has been turned into a house, or a two-roomed and a garage, something like that.  That is separate, but in the very same yard.

MR CURRIN: Mr Chairman, there were children living in the house, so that you are not at such disadvantage.  There were children, the record indicates it.

ADV DE JAGER: And when you went into this room and the petrol was thrown there, where was Hendrik?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: We had left him behind in the shop.

ADV DE JAGER: So he wasn't present even?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: No.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you see his parents there?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you speak to them?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes.  When we walked in, if I am still correct, of which I think I am, there was someone making tea.

ADV DE JAGER: And as far as I could see, the people being killed, was Christina, Eunice, Catherine and Melzinah.  Were they all women?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I was made to understand so.

ADV DE JAGER: So you weren't concerned about this - were they involved in any political struggle or were they your political enemies?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: They were not involved in any political strife.  But however, I should say they fell victim because of our intended action of burning down the house and ultimately teaching Hendrik a public lesson.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Ndlovu, was it your intention to injure or even kill any of the occupants of Mr Hendrik Masupa's house?  Was it your primary intention to do that?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: No, I swear to God in heaven, I never had intention or ill intention of hurting anyone, or injuring or killing for that matter. I never had such intention. It never occurred in my mind that as a result of those actions, the consequences will be that people will be injured and others would die.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now when you took that decision to burn the house down, did you foresee that there would be occupants in the house at the time when you decided to burn the house down with petrol?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: No, I guess we were so angry as such that we didn't reason that that would ultimately end up with a situation where people are hurt, people are dying.

JUDGE WILSON: What time was it?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: It was late, after eight, if I recall very well.

JUDGE WILSON: People are normally at home after eight, aren't they?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, M'Lord.

JUDGE WILSON: And you knew, as your neighbours, that several people lived in this house, didn't you?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, M'Lord.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Ndlovu, when you succeeded to ultimately open the door and you ran out of the house in flames, did you close the door behind you to keep the occupants of the house inside the house as the house was burning?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: No.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did any of your co-assailants do that to your knowledge?  Did you see anyone closing the door behind?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: No.

JUDGE WILSON: Did any of you do anything to help the people get out of the burning house?