Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: Because Mr Tibedi I've heard what you testifiednow and I want to draw your attention to the fact that what youasked of the applicants now, right at the end, in respect of reconciliationand where you said that the
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process will be assisted if the applicants go out and say theydid it in the name of apartheid, I want to draw your attentionto the fact that in the opening statement they said the following:
  "We do not believe that our endeavours to uphold apartheidwere worth the pain and suffering on both sides and we are ofthe firm belief that the actions of both sides of the conflictwere excessive and unnecessary, and could have been avoided.  We believe that the truth will assist in preventing such happeningsto occur in future in South Africa."
They also said:
  "We will give evidence about our actions during the timeof the conflict and will show that all our actions were purelyand simply associated with the political objective to uphold theNational Party Government and apartheid, to fight Communism andto resist liberation of South Africa."
They said on page

<UNKNOWN>: "We were brought up to believe in apartheid.   We weremade to believe that apartheid was sanctioned by God through thechurch.   We were made to believe that our participation in thesecurity forces was justified to uphold apartheid.   We were madeto believe that black people were inferior and the needs and emotionsand the aspirations of black people differed from ours.  We weremade to believe that we were superior and that these differencesjustified apartheid.   We have come to realise that these beliefswere
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   wrong, morally and in reality and we do not hold these beliefsanymore.   We believe that the example set by the President ofSouth Africa, Nelson Mandela in respect of reconciliation, forgivenessand understanding should be followed by everyone in South Africa."
Does that accord with what you testified just now you expect fromthe applicants?

ANSWER: To some extent yes, but I also think, you'llforgive me if maybe it is mentioned somewhere in your statement,I also think that it will be important if we take it beyond thatbecause I read that statement to mean that it is a statement preparedfor this particular hearing and I think that it will be usefulif the individual members concerned could take it beyond, beyondthis particular moment and be able to go out there in their communitiesand do exactly that because that is the main problem that we arebeing faced with and talking here on behalf of the organisationto say people are not happy about the manner in which the perpetratorsseem to be responding.   So I am saying to a certain extent orto some extent, yes that statement does cover what I said as myclosing remarks.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Tibedi do you accept that what was saidin the opening statement by the applicants come from their hearts,that they mean it and that they are bona fide?

ANSWER: It will be difficult for me to respond to thatquestion, I don't know.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Tibedi is there any basis upon which youcan say to us that you can't accept it?

ANSWER: I have already mentioned that whether to acceptit or not to accept it...(end of side 1 of tape 3)...
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<UNKNOWN>: ...is that right, and as I understand or asI make the deduction, and tell me if I'm wrong, you have yourwhole life been in leadership positions, is that right?

ANSWER: My whole, my adult life.

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, can you give us a little bit of informationof the leadership positions you were in?

ANSWER: Well my leadership positions actually revolvedaround the trade union movement basically.   I will start from1980.   From 1980 I was employed by Siemens and that is whereI became active, I was working in their laboratory, that is whereI became active as a shop steward.   I was then elected chairpersonof the committee in Siemens plant.  The following year I was electedsecretary of the National Shop Steward Council of Siemens Groupof Companies.   I was elected secretary of the National Shop StewardCouncil of Siemens Group of Companies and in 1983 I was electedchairperson of the Pretoria area of the Metal & Allied WorkersUnion.   That is the position I held until 1995 when I was elected,the beginning of 1996 when I was elected chairperson of Cosatuin the Northern Transvaal Region.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Tibedi during the 1980's you supported thestruggle?

ANSWER: The struggle?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes.

ANSWER: Yes I felt very much uncomfortable with the apartheidsystem, I wanted to change it.

<UNKNOWN>: You supported, tell me if I'm wrong - if mydeduction is wrong - you supported the ANC?

ANSWER: The ANC was a banned organisation, I was a memberof the United Democratic Front, in 1983, from 1983.

<UNKNOWN>: With the United Democratic Front?
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ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Yes.   At that stage, even though the ANC wasa banned organisation and you could not say too much loudly aboutit, did you support the ideals and the methods of the ANC?

ANSWER: Yes I supported the ideals enshrined in the FreedomCharter.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Tibedi the, if you'll just bear with meMr Chairman, have you had any discussions with Mr Van Vuuren andMr Hechter during these proceedings?

ANSWER: I had discussions with Mr Van Vuuren this morning.

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, and was there any suggestion made to youabout appearing with Mr Van Vuuren on a television programme?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: What was your reaction?

ANSWER: Well I, firstly I was opposed to it but aftersome explanation it was explained to me that the purpose of theappearance is for me to ask Mr Van Vuuren some questions as towhy he did what he did.   I made it very clear that if there isany television appearance I would like to appear on my own andgive my own version, so which means that appearance is simplyto ask those questions and get some clarity on those questions.

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, Mr Tibedi I just want to put it to youthat Mr Van Vuuren, as I understand it, has extended a hand offriendship to you, that he was prepared to appear in this televisionprogramme with you and that from the side of the conflict thatboth Mr Van Vuuren and Mr Hechter comes from, that they bear no- from their point of view in respect of actions against them- they bear no grudges and no animosity
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whatsoever towards you or towards anybody else who was involvedin the struggle.   What is your comment on that?

ANSWER: Well my comment is simply that inasfar as dealingwith that matter is concerned, that matter will be located withinthe whole question of whether I accept or I don't accept theirapplication for amnesty, and I accept, I prefer to deal with thatmatter at the levels that I have explained.   Secondly I wantto say that Mr Van Vuuren, or the person who spoke to me aboutthe interview did not indicate to me whether that interview wasarranged on conditions or on pre-conditions because if that isthe case then I'm prepared to reconsider my position.

<UNKNOWN>: Right thank you.   The only reason why I putthis to you is to explain to you what Mr Van Vuuren's attitudetowards you is today.

ANSWER: Thank you.

<UNKNOWN>: And that also includes Mr Hechter's attitudetowards you.    Mr Tibedi were the trade unions involved in consumerboycotts at a specific time during the 1980's, as a general question?