Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-21

MR PRIOR: If the Committee will just bear with me.  There is one aspect I just wish to verify from Mr Brummer's statement.

MR LAX: While you are doing that, Mr Prior, perhaps I can just canvass something else with the witness.  You said to us in your evidence that when you, once Dolo had stopped this vehicle with the ladies in it and the driver said she couldn't drive because she was so frightened.  You then borrowed the vehicle, then you told her that she would find it at Molefe's store, or Moleko's store.  Is that right?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No, it isn't true.  We said she would find the car next to Moleko's place.

MR LAX: Moleko's place, is that a hotel, is that a store?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: It is a store.

MR LAX: The point I'm trying to make is, who told her that?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Comrade Phila told her that.

MR LAX: ...(inaudible)

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes.

MR LAX: See, that's not what he told us yesterday.  He didn't specify where she would find the vehicle at all.  Please explain this.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: If I remember well Comrade Dolo said it is me who remembers some of the things, because he said yesterday he couldn't remember well what he said and everything that happened.  But I can remember well what he said, because I was standing next to him by then.

MR LAX: Now the second thing I wanted to canvass with you while Mr Prior is just looking for where, for this portion of his evidence, of the letter from Mr Brummer.  You've told us that the reason you had to go and be a lookout was because of the misty conditions on that day, is that right?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR LAX: Well you see Mr Dolo told us nothing about it being misty on that day.  He said the reason why you had to go there was because there was a curve on the road and you couldn't see clearly from where you, where they were positioned.  Please explain this to us.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: The curve is also one of the reasons and it was also misty because it was in the morning and we couldn't see clearly who the occupants of the cars were.  Whether it were whites or black people.  The curve was also a reason why we couldn't see clearly who the occupants of the cars passing by were.  That is when Comrade Dolo ordered me to go to a certain place so that I could give them a signal whether the car passing by belonged to white people or to black people.

MR LAX: Why did you leave your area where you were supposed to be the lookout?  The operation wasn't over, you hadn't had a signal to retreat, why did you leave that place where you had been ordered to go?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: The order was I must give a signal and thereafter I must join the Comrades, so I couldn't stand there while the Comrades were working, I had to work together with them.

MR LAX: But your operation was to attack vehicles in the plural, not just one vehicle.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes it is so.

MR LAX: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: While you are still there talking about signal, your instruction was that you should raise you hat when you see a vehicle driven by white people.  The vehicle driven by
Mr Schroeder was not a vehicle driven by white people, or with white people as occupants.  Can you tell us the reason why you gave a signal?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I gave a signal because I thought it were, I saw them as whites in the car.  I didn't know they were Coloureds in that car.  According to my knowledge there are Coloureds who look like white people and there are Coloured who look like me, skin-wise.  But in that car there were only Coloureds who looked like white people that is why I gave the signal.

ADV SANDI: When they were being chased, when they were running away, wouldn't you people see that they were not white, they were Coloured?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: As I have said earlier that there are Coloureds who look like whites.  I couldn't differentiate whether they were Coloureds or white.  We couldn't tell the difference, we only perceived them as whites.

MR PRIOR: What I want to put to you, I was able to find a Mr Brummer mark, but the information that I have gleaned is that Mrs Brummer and Mr Schroeder were on their way to the Score Furnisher where they worked in, supermarket, in Sterkspruit.  There were only two occupants of that vehicle.  I may also put it to you, in the Police investigation that I am privy to there was no other mention of any other occupant in that bakkie driven by Mr Schroeder and the passenger, Mrs Brummer, on that morning.  Are you saying there were more that two occupants of that bakkie?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes it is so.

MR PRIOR: Just one last thing,  I notice from your annexure to your amnesty application, apart from the Umtata matter in '94 it seems that your operations all were concluded in 1992.  I just want to know is there a reason, were you withdrawn from the field or what is the position, because there seems to be no attacks
in '93.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: May you please repeat you question?

MR PRIOR: In the list, the extensive list, of attacks in which you participated, apart from the one in Umtata in '94, all the other attacks were in 1993.  I just want to know, it, were you withdrawn from operations for 1993, for example.  It doesn't seem that you participated in any attacks in 1993.  And I want to know if it is so, what is the reason.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I was withdrawn from the unit in 1992.  I didn't partake in any attack in 1993.  I was in ...(indistinct) by that time, so I didn't take part in attacks.

MR PRIOR: It seems that after the Herschel attack where these people were killed on the road you say you then were withdrawn.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, I was withdrawn from attacks.

MR PRIOR: Was there any sanction by APLA or the PAC because of this attack?  That this didn't fit in with their policy?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No there was nothing like that.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say Herschel attack, which do you mean?

MR PRIOR: This matter we're dealing with Mr Chairman is commonly referred to as the Herschel ambush.  It's the Lady Grey ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well he's described it as the Lady Grey ambush in his application.

MR PRIOR: Yes, Herschel is very close to Sterkspruit.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I just want to make sure.  He called it the Lady Grey.  Do you realise that when you were asked about the Herschel application it meant this one which you called the Lady Grey ambush?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: By the time I made the application, I didn't know the name of places.  I only realised afterwards that this place was between Herschel and Lady Grey, after I made my application.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the other matters you talked about in your application.  Two attacks on Lady Grey farms, were they before or after this attack we've been talking about?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: They happened before this attack.

CHAIRPERSON: And the Sterkspruit Hotel and Garage attack, were they before or after?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: They took place before.

CHAIRPERSON: So this was the last attack you were involved in?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.  That was in 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: And you became an instructor after this attack?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, that was in 1993 when I became an instructor.

ADV SANDI: What were you supposed to do as

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: My job was to canvass for membership from people who came from Jo'burg, Free State and to train them so that they could protect the members of the Organisation as our members were being attacked there were no people to protect them.  So my job entailed giving them training to protect our members, that is the members of the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were ...(inaudible)

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: That happened in Umtata.