Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR DONAN: Now let's just look at page 427.  One of the things that you are cautioned about in this document, DSM4, is that
"Malingering should be ruled out in those situations in which financial remuneration benefit eligibility may play a role".
Now aren't we precisely in one of ...(intervention)

MS KOTZE: I am sorry I've lost you.

MR DONAN: Page 427.

MS KOTZE: I am at 427.

MR DONAN: Just above the little box.

MS KOTZE: Yes, oh "Malingering" I've got it.

MR DONAN: Malingering.

MS KOTZE: Okay.

MR DONAN: Were you aware of that caution when you made your diagnosis?

MS KOTZE: I don't understand your question.

MR DONAN: Were you aware that you should caution yourself about the patient's malingering when you made your diagnosis?

MS KOTZE: In what way?

MR DONAN: Were you aware that when he's complained to you about blockouts that the blockouts may help him benefit in this application?

MS KOTZE: You know when he came to see me he didn't come to see me with a view that I would have to testify here for him.  I don't think there was any reason for him to lie about anything.  Every question that I asked him he answered as well as he could.  So I don't think that he foresaw at that stage - he wasn't even sure that he was going to come here at that stage.

MR DONAN: What I am asking is not what he said but what you did.  Did you test him before you made your diagnosis to see if he was malingering?

MS KOTZE: I don't think he lied to me when he said that he blocked out things.

MR DONAN: But did you test him in some way?

MS KOTZE: Yes, because I spoke to him extensively and at different times I would ask him the same questions and I got the same answers.

MR DONAN: But were any of those questions directed at testing whether he genuinely suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder or whether he was malingering?

MS KOTZE: He was not malingering in my professional opinion.

MR DONAN: How did you rule out malingering?

MS KOTZE: I used my professional experience and opinion there.

MR DONAN: But what did you actually do?

MS KOTZE: I spoke to his wife, I had spoken to her extensively before I think I knew a lot about his behaviour and I drew my conclusions from that.

MR DONAN: I am not suggesting, I am challenging your diagnosis so please bear with me when I ask these questions ...(intervention)

MS KOTZE: No I see in extent that you are also challenging my professional integrity because you are saying what I am telling you here is a lie.  That's how I see it.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question is really is it possible to answer for example, what does a psychologist do to test whether the patient is malingering or not, is there a way of knowing that the patient is malingering and if so how do you determine that?

MS KOTZE: You have to trust your training and your professional opinion.  We do have training in establishing whether people are telling the truth or not.  It's not something that you can determine one hundred percent but you do trust your judgement.

CHAIRPERSON: There's no formula?

MS KOTZE: There is no formula, there is no test.

MR DONAN: And I apologise unequivocally for giving you the impression that I disbelieve you.  What I have difficulty is, I started off by saying, is I am challenging your diagnosis.  I am not saying that there might not be something else wrong, but if post-traumatic stress disorder is what you diagnose and blockout follows, that I am challenging.
	To end off may I just ask you, Mr Benzien was a fine policeman in your view and he was also a loyal policeman.  He was someone who would be loyal to his fellow policeman wouldn't he?

MS KOTZE: Correct.

MR DONAN: And he would, out of that loyalty, protect them from becoming involved with charges as he might become involved, would you agree with me?

MS KOTZE: I agree with you.

MR DONAN: Are you able to say that that's not the reason why he might be blocking out certain events here which will incriminate his former colleagues?

MS KOTZE: No because he could not remember detail regarding other matters as well when I questioned him in therapy.  So it was not only with regard to colleagues that he had blocks, he also had blocks with regard to other things as well, other matters.

MR DONAN: But you didn't question him about what his colleagues did?

MS KOTZE: I did question him because I wanted to know the truth as well.  I wanted to make sure in my mind what this man was all about.

MR DONAN: So did he tell you what his colleagues did?

MS KOTZE: Yes he did.

MR DONAN: And did he tell you who they were?

MS KOTZE: Where he could remember he gave me names, but very often he would sit and he couldn't remember a name and when he came the next time he'd say to me you know the guy that we spoke about, that I couldn't get his name, I went to have a look and I found a letter or whatever, his name is this and this and then he would give me the name.

MR DONAN: And can you tell the, are you able to tell the Committee who these people were?

MS KOTZE: Do you think that it's my duty to do that here?  I am here to ...(intervention)

MR DONAN: I am asking you and the Committee will stop you from answering if that's an improper question ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It's a question of now testing her memory is that it?

MR DONAN: No it's really a question - we shall argue at the end ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No well ...(intervention)

MR DONAN: ...that Mr Benzien is covering up for his ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No I understand but the way you put the question it will mean that you are really testing her memory as to whether she remembers the names of people.

MS KOTZE: And I don't have a very good memory so you might think that I am blocking things out as well.  (Laughter)

MR DONAN: It must be post-traumatic stress disorder.

MS KOTZE: I cannot unfortunately answer that for you.  (General laughter)

MR DONAN: Yes.

MS KOTZE: I cannot unfortunately answer that for you because I don't have the detail here.

MR DONAN: It's a very stressful process this and I am sorry that you have to go through it.  But he was able to tell you the names of his colleagues - well name some of his colleagues and tell you that they had committed certain ...(intervention)

MS KOTZE: Ja and he had difficulty remembering people that he had interrogated etc as well, because he became so emotionally distressed when he spoke about these things very often I had to let him go outside and first have a cigarette, because I don't allow him to smoke in my office, so he had to go out and have a smoke break, very often more than once in an hour's time, because he was emotionally distressed.

MR DONAN: Did he ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Do I understand that he did tell you the names of colleagues and that you made a note of them, you recorded them?

MS KOTZE: No I didn't make a note of all those things.

JUDGE WILSON: Of none of them?

MS KOTZE: I did write names down somewhere, here and there ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Yes and he took the trouble when he came back the next time to sometimes supply you with the name which he hadn't been able to remember before?

MS KOTZE: You see my main concern was not to interrogate him as far as names and so on, I am not - that's not my main focus, so I didn't always write names down.

JUDGE WILSON: No but you've told us that on occasions he came back and gave you a name that he hadn't been able to remember.

MS KOTZE: That he couldn't remember at that stage but maybe he scratched somewhere in a paper or something or whatever, or he spoke to his wife or whatever and said who is this guy's name and got the name.

JUDGE WILSON: Which would indicate that he wasn't hiding names from you?

MS KOTZE: No he wasn't hiding names from me.

JUDGE WILSON: And he also knew that you sometimes wrote them down?

MS KOTZE: Yes he did.

MR DONAN: And did these people also commit torture, the names of the people that he mentioned?