Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-02

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, can you just find out from him whether he did act strangely on Monday?  And maybe simply just put it to him that that's the information that you have and find out what his response will be to that information which is in your possession.

MR SITHOLE: Thanks, Madam Chair.
	Is it correct that on the 28th of September, on the morning when you were at work you acted strangely and you left very quickly from work?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Yes, that's correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Sithole, I don't want to in way curtail your cross-examination but if it's possible, I don't say you're under obligation to do so, can't you give us an indication of where this line of questioning is taking us?

MR SITHOLE: Yes, Madam Chair.  The reason behind the question, I wanted to establish first as to when was the initial attack planned and whether it is related to the work environment in any way, because the victims are saying he actually committed the offence out of anger, not out of political motivation.
	Mr Hadebe, on the day in question when you came back to work in the morning, can you briefly explain to the Commission if you say you were acting strangely, what is it that you were doing?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: When I left home for work and when I arrived at work I was disturbed emotionally because we've just lost Mgababa the previous day, and it wasn't the first time that the ANC had killed someone from our organisation.  That's why I was sad on that Monday morning.

MR SITHOLE: Mr Hadebe, can you briefly explain to this Committee why didn't you in your criminal case explain to the Court the truth, tell the Court the truth as to the fact that you were at work on that day?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: The reason I denied in Court is because I couldn't tell whether I was at work or not at work because I reported earlier in the morning and then I left early again.  I denied this in Court and I also denied the crime, I said I didn't know anything about this incident.  I told the Court that I went home and I stayed indoors.  And today I do agree that I denied everything in Court.

MR SITHOLE: And would make this Committee believe you when you are saying that you were there on that day, and why would the Committee not believe what is contained on the Court record from page 19 of the record that is before the Committee?

MR CLAASSEN: Madam Chair, if I may.  I think that was a very long question and I think it might just be a bit unfair to the applicant,  If Mr Sithole can maybe just rephrase it.

CHAIRPERSON: The applicant has not indicated any difficulty in respect of that question, Mr Claassen.  Just don't interfere with cross-examination unless indeed your client does indicate any difficulty.  He hasn't.
	Are you able to respond, Mr Hadebe, to that question?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: It will be difficult for me to answer this question.

CHAIRPERSON: Why is it difficult for you to respond to that question?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I think it will be because that I will have to answer why I denied everything in Court and why the Committee should trust me today.  But what I want to tell Mr Sithole is that what I am saying here today is the truth even though I didn't tell the truth in Court, but what I'm here to tell the Committee today is the truth and the only truth and I swear on this, this is the truth.  What I've already mentioned is the truth and what I am still going to tell the Committee will be the truth from the bottom of my heart.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, Mr Hadebe, it has taken you quite some time to explain why you can't give any explanation why your evidence in this regard is different to that which you gave during your criminal proceedings.  If you had endeavoured to explain why that evidence is different to the one you are giving to this Committee, I think you would have been able to finish your explanation.  Now are you able to give any explanation why you lied in your criminal, during your criminal proceedings, about you not being at work and why you now you should be believed when you say you were at work?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: What made me lie in Court was, I was protecting the people who were actually the operatives in this crime and I was hoping that since I didn't do it, I was going to be found not guilty.

CHAIRPERSON: But the question is only in relation to you having been present that morning.  How would that have protected the people who had actually participated in the commission of the offence?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: You see, in Court you said you were at work all the time.  Wasn't that his defence?

MR SITHOLE: That was the defence, Madam Chair.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: That's true, that's what I said.  I would like to tell this Committee that it is true that I lied in Court.  I was trying to protect myself from being sentenced and also I was protecting the actual people who committed this crime so that they are not sent to prison, but today I am here to tell the truth.  That is why I'm telling the truth today as it is.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Sithole.

MR SITHOLE: Thanks, Madam Chair.
	To add to that problem that I've just indicated, on page 17 of the evidence there's a material difference to the list of people whom you allege that are the perpetrators of this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean number 17 of the paginated bundle?

MR SITHOLE: Number 17 of the paginated bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: And that would be the application form of Mr Sithomo?

MR SITHOLE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what you are saying about Sithomo's application?

MR SITHOLE: I'm saying there's a material difference in the names of the perpetrators of the incident from the list of names that were submitted by the applicant.  Maybe to rephrase it, Madam Chair.
	You have stated that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He wouldn't know.  I think you will have to tell him what Sithomo has said.

MR SITHOLE: ...(inaudible).

CHAIRPERSON: He can't be expected ...(inaudible).

MR SITHOLE: Yes, Madam Chair, that's what I'm going to do now.
	On page 17 of the paginated evidence on Mr Sithomo's application, he mentions that Thokozani Biela, Kujeza Nxango, Philisa Choncho and two other members, namely ...(inaudible)
NO SOUND

MR SITHOLE: ... namely Thandogwake Ndlovu and Zaccarehia Mhlongo committed the bombing.  What do you say to that, Mr Hadebe?

CHAIRPERSON: May I in defence to Mr Hadebe say that that's a very unfair question to put to him.  I think as things stand the application form, and in particular Mr Sithomo's response to paragraph 9.4 that you are eluding to, 9(a)4, the particulars therein are very scanty.  I cannot comprehend what Mr Sithomo is saying.  It would unfair to put issues which are not clear for Mr Hadebe to comment upon.  I think you can recall Mr Hadebe to comment thereon once you have obtained proper evidence  in respect of that point in particular from Mr Sithomo.

MR SITHOLE: As it pleases, Madam Chair.  Madam Chair, I will just ask for a few seconds to go through my notes.

CHAIRPERSON: If you are not going to be long we will afford you an opportunity to complete your cross-examination, if it's not going to be too long, otherwise it has been drawn to my attention that it's 1 o'clock and it's about time to adjourn for lunch.

MR SITHOLE: Madam Chair, we can adjourn for lunch and then I'll finish my cross-examination after lunch.

CHAIRPERSON: Then shall we adjourn for lunch and reconvene at half past one, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hadebe, you are reminded that you are still under your former oath.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sithole, you were still busy with Mr Hadebe, putting questions to him.

MR SITHOLE: Thanks, Madam Chair.
	Mr Hadebe, let's go to the day of the incident.  Do  you remember the testimony given by Johanna Msibi in the criminal trial?

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you just tell him what Johanna Msibi said, he won't remember.