Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-20

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: (Still under oath).

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to apologise and explain to the members of the public who have been sitting here since 09H30 the reason for the delay.  It was proposed to call a certain witness today, but, unfortunately, it has emerged that he has not been offered, he had not been afforded an opportunity to consult a legal adviser before a statement was taken from him, nor was he afforded that opportunity in the light of the fact that he is one of the persons implicated in the present proceedings and, in terms of the Act, is entitled to legal advice.  We, unfortunately, had to try to make arrangements this morning and that has been done and I think it is, all the lawyers concerned agree that it is a case where he is, should have and be improper to proceed without affording him the opportunity of taking legal advice.  That means that we will not be able to conclude this hearing today, because it has not been possible to arrange for a lawyer to make himself available and to investigate the position fully in order to advise his client.
	We will, however, proceed now with the continuing cross-examination of the second applicant and thereafter it will be necessary to adjourn this hearing to a date to be arranged.  
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR B WILLIAMS (cont)

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson, members of the Committee.  I now proceed with the cross-examination of Mr Mbelo.  Are you ready Mr Mbelo?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, before the applicant begins answering questions, he would just like to inform the Committee that he has decided to give his testimony in Tswana.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, may I proceed?

INTERPRETER: The witness is having a technical problem on four for Tswana.

UNKNOWN: You cannot hear me, Mr Mbelo?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I cannot hear ... (intervention).

UNKNOWN: The interpreter.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: ... the interpreter.  She said ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Is the receiver set for channel four?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: It is set for channel four, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Can you hear me now, Mr Mbelo?  Can you hear me now?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I am waiting for the translator to tell me, then I can hear her.

UNKNOWN: You still cannot hear me, Mr Mbelo?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I hear you, Mr Williams, but I do not hear my interpreter.

CHAIRPERSON: Nothing is coming through on channel four as far as I can hear.

UNKNOWN: Can you hear me now, Mr Mbelo?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Can only hear English and Xhosa, not Tswana.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The translation has to come through in Tswana.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Nothing happens on three, no Tswana.

INTERPRETER: We will try channel three for Tswana.  He can hear me clearly now.

UNKNOWN: May I then proceed, Mr Mbelo?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, your Honour.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much.  Mr Mbelo, you testified yesterday, if I remember correctly, that there was a Caspar in the bushes, which is marked at the points S, T and QR.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I do not remember giving evidence that there was a Caspar there.

UNKNOWN: Have you possibly mentioned this in your application or in your Section 29 hearing which took place?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Maybe I mentioned this after having seen the place.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is very far from him, we cannot get the sound clearly.

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I am saying, in my application I never said I saw a Caspar.  It is possible that in my Section 29 I said so after having seen the video in the, used in the Weaver Trial.

UNKNOWN: So, you are saying that you do not have any independent recollection of there being a Caspar there on that day?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I am not saying I do not recall ...

INTERPRETER: There is a problem with the speaker's mike.

UNKNOWN: Can you hear now?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I was telling, I was saying that where I have written my affidavit there is nowhere I make mention of a Caspar, but perhaps in the Section 29 I mentioned the Caspar, because of the video used in the Weaver Trial.

UNKNOWN: All right, I will leave that point there, Mr Mbelo.
	You said in your evidence in-chief that you knew it would be impossible to arrest the, these armed men?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it is so, Sir.

UNKNOWN: You also said that words to the effect that the men were to be killed had been used?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it is so, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Can you indicate to the Committee whom you recall actually using these words?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: The person that I recall clearly having used these words, it is my co-applicant for amnesty, Mr Bellingan.

UNKNOWN: Do you recall mentioning in your Section 29 hearing that it was planned to ambush the guerrillas?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I do not remember saying that, but it is possible.

UNKNOWN: Do you recall saying that ambushing the guerrillas, by ambushing the guerrillas you understood to mean that they were to be killed?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it is so.

UNKNOWN: You also say that at some stage during your presence on the scene, you were instructed to withdraw, because the police bus had safely reached Guguletu Police Station?  Is that correct?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it is so.  They told us that the bus had already passed that point where it was supposed to be ambushed.

UNKNOWN: We have also heard evidence from Mr Bellingan that, despite the instruction to withdraw, the police in the bushes were, in all probability, still concealed there.  Do you agree with that?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir.

UNKNOWN: And do you also agree with him when he says that, in all probability, the vehicles in which the police were operating there, were still circulating in the are?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, it is so, I agree with him on that point.

UNKNOWN: Now, when you saw the deceased, Christopher Piet, and four men in NY3, as you testified, did you see any other ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Is it NY3 or NY111, as we have been referring to it earlier?

UNKNOWN: I must apologise, perhaps I should refer to it as NY111, if it pleases the Chairperson.
	Mr Mbelo, when you saw the deceased, Christopher Piet, and the four men in NY111, while you were circulating, did you see any other police in that immediate vicinity?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: When I went past there, there were no other policemen or their vehicle.  That is why I explained to them that it seems as if these culprits that you are looking for are approaching the intersection.

UNKNOWN: And at the time that you noticed these men, they were walking in the direction of NY1.  Am I correct?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: Yes, Sir, they were approaching that direction.

UNKNOWN: If you look at page 245 of Volume I, it is your application in this matter.  You will notice that a few lines down to the bottom you say the following words and I quote,
"Because I was of the view that they were intent on attacking policemen, I communicated this information to the other policemen via radio."
Would you explain to the Committee which policemen you thought these men were about to attack?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: I would respond by saying that according to the ambush it was because of the planned attack by these men and they are going to attack a Kombi.  I was explaining to them that the men that they were waiting for have just passed by, but the Kombi had already passed at that point.  I was just explaining to them that the men that they were looking for were in the intersection of NY1 and NY111.

UNKNOWN: But the reason, that you say on this page that I have quoted to you, is that you thought that the men were intent on attacking the policemen and the question is which policemen were the men intent on attacking?

TIKAPELA JOHANNES MBELO: That is the Kombi that had already passed, Chairperson.