Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: If the office has not contacted the Attorney General, they will have to do so won't they?  And that may take a little longer.  It's now just about 12 'o clock.  It seems to be more sensible to adjourn till 2 'o clock so you will have two hours in which to make arrangements because it does seem to us and I think that I'm speaking on behalf of all of us that in the circumstances existing, the potential witness, Mr Mbane, does fall within the provisions of Section 31 and I imagine that the Attorney General will want to know a little bit about the alleged offences before he gives his consent.
	So I think we should adjourn till 2 'o clock.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: I am informed that the legal officer acting on our behalf has consulted with the Attorney General in terms of the provisions of Section 31 of the promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act and further we are satisfied that to require such information from the witness is reasonable, necessary and justifiable in an open and democratic society based on freedom and equality and we are satisfied that from the Notice we were given that the person was not content to comply with the provisions of Section 2(c).  Is that so?

ADV J MOSES: That is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We are now satisfied from the information before us that the provisions of Section 31 have been complied with and that the witness is required subject to provisions of sub-sections 2,3 and 5 to answer any questions put to him with regard to the subject matter of this hearing, notwithstanding that the answers might incriminate him.  That is in terms of Section 31 (1).

ADV J MOSES: As the Committee pleases.
	Chairperson, members of the Committee, with your permission,  we would the proceed with the evidence of Mr Mbane, and as I have indicated and requested before, Ms Berlin will lead the initial part of the evidence with your permission.  As the Committee pleases.
	I beg your pardon, Chairperson, I have also indicated that the witness himself will converse in Xhosa.  The questions and evidence will be led by Ms Berlin in English.  It has been arranged with the interpreters also.

JIMMY MBANE: (sworn states)

MS P BERLIN: Mr Chairperson, members of the Committee and legal representatives, I am now going to start leading Mr Mbane's evidence and I am on paragraph 1 of page 387 in the second volume.
	Mr Mbane, under paragraph 1, is the information, your particulars under paragraph 1, are they correct?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, they are correct.

MS P BERLIN: Is the microphone on?  Yes, okay I don't have a light here so I don't know.  Yes I am going to do a sort of summary of the first paragraphs here and the statement, just to get as conveniently as possible to the more relevant parts.  I see here in paragraphs 2, 3 and 4 that you come from Port Elizabeth and that you stayed in Port Elizabeth until 1969 where you also studied, and in 1969 you were 14 years old, and that is when your uncle arranged for you to visit your father in Rhodesia, more particularly in Bulawayo, and after you came back from that visit which lasted three weeks, you wished to return to Rhodesia and your mother did not want you to, but you went to Rhodesia anyway and met your father again and stayed there and furthered your studies in Rhodesia and that you came back to Port Elizabeth in 1975, and that was when you were approximately 20 years old.  Is this correct?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, it is correct.

MS P BERLIN: Then you stayed on in Port Elizabeth and you worked at Ford Motor Company until 1981 when you took a conscious decision to go back to Zimbabwe to join the African National Congress.  Is this correct?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes Ma'am.

MS P BERLIN: When you came to Zimbabwe you met a certain guy, it says under paragraph 6.  This certain guy, who was this?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes it is so.

MS P BERLIN: I'm sorry, I asked you a question.  You met a certain guy, who was this guy, what was his name?

JIMMY MBANE: It was Flint Moore.

MS P BERLIN: And he was a member of the ANC. When exactly did you go to Zimbabwe?

JIMMY MBANE: It was in 1981.

MS P BERLIN: Your girlfriend contacted you later on and you then...you were then looking for an excuse of joining the ANC, in paragraph 7.  Why did you need an excuse to join the ANC?

JIMMY MBANE: I was working in my father's company and I had no other choice.  I had to have an excuse to leave.

MR P BERLIN: You mean you had to have an excuse to leave your family and not telling them what you were going to do?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, I was forced to.  They did not have to know what I was going to do.

MS P BERLIN: When was this?  Can you remember exactly when this was?

JIMMY MBANE: It was in 1981.

MS P BERLIN: Thank you.  So you then had to get an excuse.  You decided to get drunk and you beat your girlfriend and smashed windows and you were arrested.  Then you told the police you wanted to join the ANC.  Why was it a good idea to tell the police that you were going to join the ANC?

JIMMY MBANE: The police didn't take me straight to the ANC, they had to interrogate me first, and then take me to the ANC.

MS P BERLIN: So with the police do you mean the Central Intelligence Organisation in Zimbabwe?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes.

MS P BERLIN: Okay.  So the CIO helped ANC to recruit people?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, it was assisting it to recruit because they would interrogate you and thereafter they would call the ANC to come and collect you.

MS P BERLIN: How long a time did you stand in Central Prison waiting for the ANC to collect you?

JIMMY MBANE: It might be three to four weeks.

MS P BERLIN: Thank you.  Then in paragraph 8 you were released from prison and you met a guy named Flint Moore again. Was this the same guy that you met in paragraph 6?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, it's the very same person.

MS P BERLIN: So, couldn't he have taken you to the Indian guy in paragraph 8, immediately, in order for you to join the ANC without having to be arrested?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, he is the one, Flint Moore.

MS P BERLIN: Yes, I believe I asked you if he could have...he was the one who recommended you to become arrested and tell the police that you wanted to join the ANC. Couldn't he have helped you join the ANC before, without the arrest?

JIMMY MBANE: There was another problem.  Before taking me, they had to interrogate me, because the apartheid regime they used to assassinate people and thus they had to establish that I was genuine.

MS P BERLIN: Thank you.  You say in paragraph 8 that you were sent to Ashton Park.  Could you please tell us where Ashton Park is?

JIMMY MBANE: It is in Harare.

MS P BERLIN: And you stayed there at Ashton Park for almost six months and then you started to panic.  Can you please explain to us why you started panicking?

JIMMY MBANE: What I realised there was that there was a shooting that once took place in that house and South Africans killed an ANC member there, and thus I panicked.
	And another thing, my father was also publicising in the radio media about my whereabouts.

MS P BERLIN: Could you not have contacted him and told him that you were okay?

JIMMY MBANE: No, we were not allowed to make any calls or even go out in the streets.

MS P BERLIN: And why was this?

JIMMY MBANE: It was for the security reasons.

MS P BERLIN: Alright, thank you.
	Then you left in paragraph 9...is it working?  Is it working now? Hello?  Now?  Paragraph 9, you were taken to Cheronto from Ashton Park...

CHAIRPERSON: Your machine isn't working.

MS P BERLIN: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Your loudspeaker isn't working.

MS P BERLIN: Is it working now?  Thank you.
	You were taken to Cheronto.  When was this?

JIMMY MBANE: It was after having stayed there for six months, they took me to Cheronto.  That was in 1982.