Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-01-31

JUDGE MILLER: And Mzinyathi?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Mzinyathi was in the Security Police.

MR MAPOMA: Where is Ngxabane now?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Ngxabane passed away in 1993 or '92, in a car accident.

MR MAPOMA: Where is Mzinyathi?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I last saw him in the SAPS, but I don't know where he is stationed right now.

MR MAPOMA: After Mfazwe died - let me start here, I take it that Mfazwe was the head of the Security Branch at Butterworth during the time when you were reporting to him, is that correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Mr Mfazwe was at the anti-terrorism desk.  This desk does not have boundaries.  He would work in the Transkei and South Africa at large, there were no boundaries in the anti-terrorism desk.

MR MAPOMA: Yes what I'm saying is that he was in charge of the Butterworth unit of the Security Branch, of Security.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And after he died, who took charge?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I do not know.  I know the person but I cannot remember him now, but he was also a person who never had a background in the anti-terrorism operations.

MR MAPOMA: The person you do not know now, are you saying you know that he did not have the background, yet you don't know who he was?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, I do not know him now but I can identify him, but at the time I felt that I could not report to him because if you are a head of a Security Branch, the branch itself is divided into many divisions, we have anti-terrorism, we have education, we have unions desk, labour and everything and we are different.  Though we work for the same branch I did not know him well and I could not put anything to him.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Gumengu, please let us just be short when you answer questions.  What I want to get now from you, do you want this Committee to believe that the person who superseded the person you reported to directly, you don't know who he was after the person whom you reported to directly died?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: The name I do not know, but I think I can be able to identify the person because I know that he was a security police in Transkei, but I do not know his name.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma.  Has the Panel got any questions before re-examination?

JUDGE MILLER: Thank you.  When you were in court in respect of the charges that were laid against you relating to the coup, did you at any stage raise the defence that you were not part of the coup, you were in fact a security policeman working for the government, who had infiltrated the plotters and had passed on information?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: No, I never tried to use that as a defence because even at the time there were delegations from the head office and they were there to ensure me that it was not necessary for me to reveal that because I was still doing my job, therefore I had to go on.

JUDGE MILLER: You see what I find difficult to understand Mr Gumengu is the people who participated in the coup, the plotters, they had been arrested, they were detained, they were in custody, they were facing extremely serious charges which could have resulted in lengthy prison terms, which in fact they did result in, what's the point in infiltrating a group of people who are in custody?  I can't understand why you would get an instruction from your superiors to carry on with the charade that you were still part of the group when the group had been caught.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: The instructions and the commitment that we have in our job if you are given a mandate by your superiors and that particular enemy is still visible and then you are sent to guard that person, you do that until you die.  Even if I was sentenced to 100 years, I would be there with them until the government that I was working for does something about it.  That is how we were trained, that you don't just decide when those people, your enemies are in trouble and then you decide to go back again.  That was not how it worked.

JUDGE MILLER: Now you had the trial, you were convicted, you were sentenced together with other people and then you spent some time in prison, is that correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE MILLER: Did you during that period, carry on giving information back to your superiors about what these people were talking about in prison?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: To whom did you relay information?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I would write reports, compile reports, send them through by the police in prison and they would take them to the head of security and they would come back with feedback.

JUDGE MILLER: Now in terms of the Promotion of National Unit and Reconciliation Act, the Act which created the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, the Act which created this Amnesty Committee, we in the Amnesty Committee have been given jurisdiction to, if the criteria have been met, to grant amnesty in respect of specific offences or acts or crimes, now from what you've told us, correct me if I'm wrong, you say you didn't commit any crime or you didn't commit any offence because the whole time you were acting for the police, is that what the position is?  For exactly what do you apply amnesty for?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: The reason for me to forward this amnesty application is because I was also sentenced with these people that were with me and those people were not to protect the government and the people, the public were looking at me because they thing I was trying to serve Craig Duli or my own interests.  That is why I want to come here today, I want those people to know that I acknowledge the fact that they've lost and they should have peace in their hearts, they should know my exact role because my aim was not to break the law.  Yes, law was broken by the group that was with me, but that was not my intention.

JUDGE MILLER: But you yourself didn't break the law, or did you?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: When that appeared in court and by the people, it appeared that I had broken the law, but as far as I know as I was serving the government I never broke any law but right now when I look back I think I broke the law because I don't know what's happening and now I think some laws have changed.  And the reason for me to state that is because that's what is called the human rights violations.  Yes, I was in the group that was going for the mission and the people died and property was damaged and some other things.  Any other person who could see, he's looking at me as a perpetrator and that is why I'm here today to explain that.  And I also want to ask for forgiveness from the people who had lost their loved ones and people whose property was damaged.  They should understand the situation and forgive me.  I know that it's very difficult for the government to say yes to that because that is not the process in what was happening in our units.

JUDGE MILLER: When you were at court, did you plead guilty or not guilty to the charges?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I pleaded not guilty.

JUDGE MILLER: And what defence did you raise, just broadly speaking?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I said I was not present.

JUDGE MILLER: Did you tell lies in court?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, I lied if you analyse the law today, but according to my duties I was not lying to the Court, I was still covering up because I was still serving under the government at the time.  I was forced to be faithful and be committed to my job but according to law as you can analyse it now, you can say that I lied to the Court because I said I was not present.

JUDGE MILLER: What did you actually do to assist the people involved in the Duli coup?  What actual act did you do to assist the people taking part in the coup?