Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-22

MR VISSER: He was involved in a motorcar collision on the 20th of July 1988.  He was officially suspended from the police on the 23rd of January 1989.  Mr Venter's murder took place on the 3rd of February 1989.  He was arrested - I'm not quite sure, I'm speaking from recollection, the 8th, 9th or 10th of February 1989 and he's been in prison ever since.  I must apologise if there's anything that I've told you now that may prove to be wrong.  I'm speaking from recollection but I'm reasonably certain Mr Chairman, that those are the accurate dates.

CHAIRPERSON: There's a dispute about some of them isn't there?

MR VISSER: Yes, that's on the evidence of course.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: But those are the ones that we have presented evidence to you that we could fairly accurately determine, I can take it no higher than that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV MEMANI: Now, Mr Mbanjani we were dealing with the raid in Botshabelo and I had put it to you that Ngo was present during the raid.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I did not see him there.

ADV MEMANI: And my instruction are that this raid would either - it would have taken place either in '85 or '86.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I do not remember.

ADV MEMANI: And at the time when it took place you were the person who was in charge of Botshabelo.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I told that the person in charge was Warrant Officer van den Berg, I was working under him.  When he was not there, it was then that I would take charge.  I have to explain, it was not allowed that a black person be in charge of police stations. I was second-in-charge so that I could rescue when he was not present.

ADV MEMANI: Yes, the statement as I put it was not entirely correct.  You were the person however, who was dominant and could identify people and their houses.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I'm saying we were the people who were working there, we identified people.  When we talked of Jack we had to know his house number, his identity number, his address and I would send to the seniors and we would do that kind of work.

CHAIRPERSON: Doesn't that mean that that raid must have taken place in 1985 when you were still the - it was still your function to do this in Botshabelo?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: There were raids, I do not remember very well, but there were raids.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you've told us - I understood your evidence that from the beginning of 1986 you were doing office work in Bloemfontein.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is correct M'Lord but I've said I would not say it was 1985 because it happened a long time ago in 1985.  It was during that time of  unrests in schools.

ADV MEMANI: So it could have happened in 1986?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: In 1986 I was not there, I was in Bloemfontein.  If it happened in that year I was not there.

ADV MEMANI: If I may just go through my notes M'Lord to see and cut out some of the questions I've already asked?
	Now, Mr Mbanjani, how could it have happened that the general public came to know that Ngo was working with the police when you who was supposed to his college, never even knew him or knew what he was doing at the police station?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I was not Ngo's handler and I would not be in a position to know how it came about that the community knew because there were people who were dealing with him.  I never met him, I was working in the office.

ADV MEMANI: Now, whist you worked at Fountain people were tortured by the police at the police station.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I mentioned that we were working at the office and even the policemen who were working there did not enter into our office.  We didn't know what was happening the other side, they did not know what was happening this side.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you can help me here and tell me what was Fountain, was it a police station that the public had access to or was it the offices of the security police?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: It was the head office of the security branch.

CHAIRPERSON: And how many floors of the building did they take?  Did they have the whole building?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: There are five floors in that building but the security branch was occupying the 4th and the 5th floor.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Sorry, one more question.  How did you get in?  Could the members of the public just walk up the stairs or catch a lift to the 4th and 5th floor and walk into offices?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: You would be in a position to catch a lift to go to the 4th floor but you would not be in a position to get into the offices because there was a door and you had to ring the bell.

CHAIRPERSON: And was a record kept of people who came and went, as happens in most police stations?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: The people who came to the building were the people who came for interrogations or when the people came they came to look for one of the people working around, we did not have records.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: So if I wanted to see one of the security police, would I take the lift to the fourth floor and then if there was a closed door and somebody should admit me, allow me entrance?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is correct.  After you get out of the lift you ring the bell, then you tell us the person you want to meet and then we call him for you.

UNKNOWN: Were you in charge?  You say: "Then you tell us who you want to see and we call him", were you in charge of the door, the bell and the entrance of people?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: Anyone who happens to hear the bell ringing would open.

CHAIRPERSON: Who occupied the other floors?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: It was the offices of the District Surgeon - excuse me, the District Commandant and his staff.

ADV MEMANI: My instructions are that members of the public were not entitled, were not allowed to enter the offices, including relatives of personnel.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: That is not so.  I had to know that I'm going to Mr so and so, then he would take me to his office and do whatever he likes, people had access.

ADV MEMANI: Now, Ngo would not have known that during the raid at Botshabelo you are the person who identified people and houses if he did not work with you during the raid.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I want to emphasise this, this is lies, I did not identify houses.  When we worked at night we grouped ourselves.  You do not point at the house, we had addresses.  I would agree with him when he said we were identifying the people.  We knew the houses we were supposed to go to because there were numbers, these people would be given lists.  I was not pointing out houses.

ADV MEMANI: But he would have known that you were identifying people if he was not working with you.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I have never worked with Ngo.  I have told many a times that I have never worked with Ngo.

ADV MEMANI: Ngo would also not have known that at the police station it was again you who identified people for interrogation.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: It is easy to know because he was among the other security members, the members who knew what was happening, they might have talked and the news fell into his ears.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Mbanjani, Ngo has told us that during the incident involving Mr Venter, you were involved.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I have given an answer to that, I said from 1986 I was working in the offices in Bloemfontein.  Where Ngo stayed I do not know, where Mr Venter stayed I do not know, I know nothing about Mr Venter.

ADV MEMANI: We are told that Mr Venter was an informer for the security branch.

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I do not know.  My seniors know that, I do not know.

ADV MEMANI: Now, Ngo was at school at Lerego during 1984, do you know that?

ZANELE PETRUS MBANJANI: I know nothing about Ngo because in 1984 I used to wake up early, go to Botshabelo where I was working.  What took place in Bloemfontein I do not know.