Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-25

<UNKNOWN>: The moment they were brought back to Mrs Mandela's home these victims were viciously beaten up, correct?

MS FALATI: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: The purpose of the beating was to force them to incriminate Father Verryn?

MS FALATI: No, the purpose of the beating - that is I said I was puzzled when they were beaten because in the first place I thought these boys were victims of sexual abuse and they were going to be kept at Mrs Winnie Mandela for protection until Father Paul Verryn comes ...[intervention]

<UNKNOWN>: Just answer the question.  Once they were there they were beaten up, they were not protected, they were beaten up?

MS FALATI: Yes, they were beaten up.

<UNKNOWN>: The reason for the beating up was to force them to incriminate him.

MS FALATI: That is what you are telling, I'm denying that.

<UNKNOWN>: And they were beaten until they incriminated him and that's when the beating stopped.

MS FALATI: I do not know, I'm not going to answer that question because you're forcing me to say it.

<UNKNOWN>: One of them escaped a week later and the other two were released two weeks later, correct?

MS FALATI: I don't know.

<UNKNOWN>: Since their escape from her home those who survived the ordeal - the three of the four, have all retracted their accusations against Father Verryn, correct?

MS FALATI: That is what you - yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes?

MR KADES: Norman Kades on behalf of the Asvat family.
 Mrs Falati, may I understand your evidence, is it that on the morning of the 28th of December, Cebekhulu complained to you and you then went to see Mrs Mandela and as a result of your having seen Mrs Mandela, Cebekhulu was then taken to Doctor Asvat' surgery, is that what you are telling us - that it all happened on the same day, the 28th of December in 1988?

MS FALATI: Yes.

MR KADES: Is that what you say?

MS FALATI: Yes, 28th.

MR KADES: And that stage - you have now told us, Father Verryn was not at the Manse, he was away on holiday.

MS FALATI: Yes, he was away.

MR KADES: So, the complain you received from Cebekhulu related to past conduct of Father Verryn, not to conduct of the previous evening or of that morning?

MS FALATI: Then your question is?

MR KADES: Well, did Cebekhulu tell you that his complaint related to behaviour of Father Paul Verryn prior to his going on holiday?

MS FALATI: Yes.

MR KADES: I see, and he was crying on that morning of the 28th?

MS FALATI: Yes.

MR KADES: And what was the position ...[intervention]

MS FALATI: It seems as if you don't understand, I don't know if I don't understand  you or you don't understand ...[indistinct]

MR KADES: Well, I'm trying to clarify, I don't understand.

MS FALATI: Yes, but you are saying - you are talking about the 28th that - you say Katiza Cebekhulu told us prior to the 28th?

MR KADES: No, no, the behaviour - the incident that he was referring to or the incidents that he referred to that he accused Father Paul Verryn of were incidents that had occurred prior - before the 28th of December.   Well, obviously because Father Verryn was not there on the 28th, he was away - you told us that now.

MS FALATI: Yes, that is what I'm saying.

MR KADES: The question now is, you say that you together with Cebekhulu and Mrs Mandela went to see Doctor Asvat on the 28th.

MS FALATI: Yes.

MR KADES: Did you accompany Mrs Mandela from her home in her vehicle to fetch Cebekhulu or with Cebekhulu and go to fetch Cebekhulu and then go direct to the office of Doctor Asvat or did you first go to Mrs Mandela's home together with Cebekhulu?

MS FALATI: She ordered - she asked John Morgan and myself to go and fetch Cebekhulu.

MR KADES: John Morgan yes?

MS FALATI: And then we went to the mission to fetch Cebekhulu.  When Cebekhulu came it was not John Morgan who drove the vehicle, it was somebody else who drove the Kombi now to Doctor Abu-Baker Baker's surgery.

MR KADES: Yes, and you accompanied them?

MS FALATI: Yes.

MR KADES: Do you know the name of the person who drove?

MS FALATI: Now, he's staying at Orlando West, he's somewhere on this side of the ...[intervention]

MR KADES: And did you find Doctor Asvat was in and did he examine Cebekhulu?

MS FALATI: Yes, he went into the examination room whilst I was sitting ...[intervention]

MR KADES: Did you accompany him into the examination room?

MS FALATI: No, she accompanied him into the examination room.

MR KADES: Mrs Mandela accompanied him into the room?

MS FALATI: Yes.

MR KADES: Did you see whether Mrs Mandela or Cebekhulu returned from the examination with any document?

MS FALATI: No, he only came with a card.

MR KADES: With a card?

MS FALATI: Yes, that was the card which I was given the nurse.

MR KADES: Given by?

MS FALATI: The card, this doctor's card.

MR KADES: Yes, a visiting card?

MS FALATI: Yes, a visiting card and the other thing that he gave us - he gave Katiza the tablets for stress, something like that.

MR KADES: For stress?

MS FALATI: Yes.

MR KADES: May I just tell you that my problem is that according to the record of the late Doctor Asvat, it appears that you called at the surgery on the 30th of December and he examined Katiza Cebekhulu on the 30th of December 1988 and not on the 28th.

MS FALATI: No, it was on the 28th.  That was all for cover-up for ...[intervention]

MR KADES: Did you find Mrs Sisulu at the surgery when you arrived?

MS FALATI: No, she was not there, I understand she was on leave.  There as a pregnant woman who was there who was actually - a pregnant young woman was busy with the people who are coming into the surgery.

MR KADES: A pregnant woman you say?

MS FALATI: Yes, a pregnant woman - she was not there.

MR KADES: Do you know her name?

MS FALATI: No, I don't know the name.

MR KADES: Can I also then just refer you quickly to a report that appeared in the Sowetan on the 8th of - on Wednesday the 8th of April in 1992, a report written by Ruth Bengu.  She says amongst other things in the report - this is a report which relates to an interview that Ruth Bengu claims she had with you, she says
"She went on"
That is you.
"went on to make startling claims about Mrs Mandela, implicating her in the death of a prominent Soweto Doctor, Abu Baker Asvat"
Did you tell that to Ruth Bengu?

MS FALATI: Can you repeat it?

MR KADES: Did you tell Ruth Bengu - did you make a statement or statements to Ruth Bengu implicating Mrs Mandela in the death of Doctor Abu Baker Asvat?

MS FALATI: It is because I was told by Jerry Richardson, that is why I told ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Did you or did you not?

MS FALATI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS FALATI: I did.

MR KADES: You say that that information was not information that you had personally or first hand knowledge of but that was information that you had received from Jerry Richardson?

MS FALATI: Yes, and Gogo.

MR KADES: Where is Gogo, do you know?

MS FALATI: She's staying with her and she's not going to be here - available at any point.

MS FALATI: She's staying with Mrs Mandela.

MR KADES: She continues to be employed?

MS FALATI: She's related to her.

MR KADES: I see.  Do you know her surname?

MS FALATI: Gogo Mabuza.

MR KADES: Gogo Mabuza?

MS FALATI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please ...[inaudible]

MR UNTERHALTER: Miss Falati, David Unterhalter, I'm appearing for the ...[indistinct] family.  I want to ask you one or two questions about the assault upon Maxwell Madondo, you said that he was assaulted because he didn't carry out a mission, could you just tell us again what that mission was?

MS FALATI: The mission was to go and fetch somebody from Orlando West ...[inaudible] home.

MR UNTERHALTER: Was it ...[inaudible]

MS FALATI: ...[inaudible] but they were sent to Duxile's home.

MR UNTERHALTER: Was it to go and apprehend Seipeisiso Tele?

MS FALATI: Yes, it's Sponge, I don't know ...[intervention]