Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-22

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I wanted to achieve a political change in Bophuthatswana, that people would be able to go where they want to go.  I was surprised that the AWB is killing the people who wanted to take part in the elections, meaning people of Bophuthatswana.
	We were not told that Terreblanche is coming, we were not informed that Terreblanche is coming.  He just invaded, he just came on his own.  I don't know as to whether there is a person who would say he has called Mr Terreblanch to Bophuthatswana.  I do not understand.
	What I wanted is that they should not stop people to struggle for a political change.  It showed that the AWB wanted to prevent people who wanted to take part in the elections, because they were killing them.  Let me stop there.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that is all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mpshe.
	Mr Hendrickse, do you have any re-examination?

MR HENDRICKSE: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Menyatsoe, let me refer you to page 15 of the bundle, the second-last paragraph, the first sentence.  This is a memorandum which was written to the Amnesty Commission.  First sentence:
"Our client decided to act for the public who were mostly ANC members and supporters".
Is that correct?  Do you see it?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That is correct.

MR HENDRICKSE: These people, are those - the public that you refer to, is it the people who were at the gate at the head office, TTA?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: The people I'm talking about - can you please repeat your question?

MR HENDRICKSE: The public that you referred to, is it the same people that were at the gate of TTA, the head office?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I'm talking about all citizens of Bophuthatswana who wanted to take part in the elections during that time.

MR HENDRICKSE: Okay, let's go further.
"Our client joined them and moved across the street at TTA being shielded by the group of people, thereby making a clear stance with regard to which side he is on".
Can you see that?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, I do.

MR HENDRICKSE: Is that true?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That is correct.

MR HENDRICKSE: These people were mostly ANC supporters?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: According to my observations, yes, they were supporters of ANC members because they were singing ANC slogans and they were raising their fists.

MR HENDRICKSE: And you already told the Commission you were also an ANC supporter, is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HENDRICKSE: I have no further questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HENDRICKSE

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Menyatsoe, did you ever become a member of the ANC after the incident?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I haven't been a member of the ANC, I'm still a supporter of the ANC.  I haven't become a full member of the ANC.  It hasn't come to my mind that I should be a full member but I'm a supporter of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Sigodi, do you have any questions?

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata, do you have any questions?

ADV MOTATA: I've got none, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  I don't think there'll be any questions arising from those.
	Thank you, Mr Menyatsoe, you may now stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hendrickse?

MR HENDRICKSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, at this juncture may we have a short adjournment just to find out whether the other witness has arrived?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly, Mr Hendrickse.  If you could just let us know as soon as possible.  Do you want take an early lunch?  I don't know if they will be ready with lunch yet, otherwise we could take a lunch adjournment until half past one, would that be convenient?

MR HENDRICKSE: I think that would be convenient.  I don't know about my learned friends, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think we'll take the lunch adjournment now and then we'll start at half past one or so soon thereafter as Mr Hendrickse is ready.

MR HENDRICKSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR HENDRICKSE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I would like to call as a witness, Mr Lawrence Lebotso.  May the witness be sworn in?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, it's Mr Lawrence?

MR HENDRICKSE: L-E-B-O-T-S-O.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: (sworn states)

MR HENDRICKSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  	Mr Lebotso, is it correct that you are 38 years of age?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: That's correct, Sir.

MR HENDRICKSE: Is it also correct that you reside at Lonely Park, here in Mafikeng?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: That's correct.

MR HENDRICKSE: Is it also correct that on the 11th of March 1994, you were in Mafikeng town?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: That's correct, I was in Mafikeng.

MR HENDRICKSE: Is it also correct that you went to a church on the day in question?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: That's correct?

MR HENDRICKSE: What was the purpose of going to the church?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: I normally do some part-time painting jobs there and they had just called me to come and check if there was any jobs for me to do there at the church, painting work.

MR HENDRICKSE: Now after you had been to the church, you were then in the Mafikeng town, is that correct?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: That is correct, Sir.

MR HENDRICKSE: Is it correct that you met up with another person, another man?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: That is correct, Sir.

MR HENDRICKSE: Where did you then proceed to?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: We went home.

MR HENDRICKSE: Were you on foot or were you travelling in a car?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: We were walking.

MR HENDRICKSE: Yes.  Which road did you walk along?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: We were walking at the industrial site.  We used a road that goes towards the industrial site.

MR HENDRICKSE: And what happened while you were walking?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: Whilst we were walking a certain white Ford Cortina came behind us.  I heard a certain voice say: "There are two kaffirs".  Then the other voice came and said: "Shoot them".  Whilst we were surprised, a certain white person came out of the car and he pointed us with a gun.

MR HENDRICKSE: Mr Lebotso, you must go slowly please, it has to be interpreted.

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: Okay.  A certain white man came out of the car with a gun.  He instructed us that: "Today you are going to die".  We lifted our hands then we pleaded for mercy.  After that he shot me on the chest bone.  He shot me at the neck.

MR HENDRICKSE: And what happened to the person who was with you, in your company?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: He fell on the ground, then he was not shot.

MR HENDRICKSE: And then?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: Whilst we were lying on the ground he said to me: "Obosamang(?), we are dying" and then he started crying.  Whilst he was crying I requested him to keep quiet because those white people would come and finish us off.

MR HENDRICKSE: Just stop there.  These white people, how were they clad on the day in question?  What clothes did they have on?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: They were clad in khaki dress.

MR HENDRICKSE: And in which language did they converse with you?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: In Afrikaans.

MR HENDRICKSE: Okay, after - while you were still lying there, what happened further?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: Whilst we were lying on the ground, whilst my friend was crying I pleaded with him to keep quiet because they would come and finish us off.  Then he kept quiet.
	After some time the other one came to shake us on the head and then he said: "You must die in peace".

MR HENDRICKSE: How were you shook on your head?  What do you mean by: "Shake on the head"?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: He was using his foot and he tread on our heads.

MR HENDRICKSE: And what was his words?

LAWRENCE LEBOTSO: Then he said: "You must die in peace, bye-bye".

MR HENDRICKSE: What happened thereafter?  Did they then leave?