Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-16

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: I was a member of the ANC.

UNKNOWN: And you mentioned when you were asked whether you were a card carrying member of the ANC, at which point did you become a card carrying member of the ANC?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: I received it I think around 1993 because prior to that we did not use them.

UNKNOWN: For how long were you a supporter of the ANC?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Around 1989.

UNKNOWN: What, when you, getting back to the incident, when you had the money with you and you were fleeing from the incident, what was your ultimate aim?  What did you plan to do with that money?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: The aim was that at the time we were fleeing from the police and we were going to return the money to the Commander.  I would say the money that we were going to obtain from the factory was going to go towards buying the firearms that were to be used in the protection of the community.

UNKNOWN: Yes, but who were you going to hand the money to?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Clearly it would go to Mr Msheshe Nzimande as per plan.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  That is the evidence Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HARKOO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Harkoo.

UNKNOWN: Sorry, Mr Hlongwane, I keep on coming back to you.  Were you ever involved in these clashes between members of the ANC and the IFP?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Yes, I did play a role, but it was ineffective because at the time we were short of firearms, of weapons, that was why there was a need for weapons which would have boosted our role at the time.

UNKNOWN: As you were short of firearms, what role did you play in these clashes?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: It was staying ...(indistinct) and be on the lookout for the attackers because they would carry out attacks and I would also be involved in making the community aware and warning them of the attackers if they approach.

UNKNOWN: Why did you have to make the community aware?  Did they not know that they could be attacked at any time by supporters of the IFP in the course of those clashes?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: I did not understand that question.

UNKNOWN: You say you had to make members of the community aware, what did you have to make them aware of?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: What used to happen was, we did not know how attackers got inside the area.  The role I played was to be on the lookout and on the very edge so that we see attackers approaching, so that we can warn the people inside so that they can prepare themselves.

UNKNOWN: This robbery, was it the first time that you had to commit an act of robbery on behalf of your organisation, in other words, with the intention to help your organisation?  Was there any robbery before?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: No.

UNKNOWN: Whilst you were in prison, wee you in the company of Ntjali and Zulu?  Were you in the same prison?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: No.

UNKNOWN: Did you ever tell Ntjali what you wanted this money for?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Yes, I informed them.

UNKNOWN: The reason I'm asking you the question is because at page 31 Ntjali says you never told him, he only heard for the first time in prison what the money was wanted for.

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: I will say that is a blue lie, I told him how the money was going to be used.  I even told Bongnkosi as well.  I even told them that there had been another idea to attack a police station and they agreed with me that that was not a good idea, therefore the intention was not just the money, but the acquisition of firearms.  So when I had my discussions with the Commander, I expressed the opinion that we rob the factory rather than the police station and Mr Zulu agreed with me when I told them of this, that is why I say that is a lie.  I informed them.

UNKNOWN: Lastly, do you have any comment to make about the fact that both Ntjali and Zulu have not applied for amnesty in respect of this incident?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: I cannot comment.  I was of the opinion that the opportunity had been granted to anyone who wanted to express themselves about the incidents that happened in the course of past events, so it was up to each and every person to come and express what they had to say.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Can I just get clarity on this?  Did you say that the idea was that you should rob either the police station or the luggage factory and that you said that you should rob the luggage factory?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: Yes.  What I'm saying is that the Commander's first opinion was that we should rob the police station, but I came up with the idea, in fact he came up with that idea and I agreed with him, because I personally preferred to carry out that incident at the factory, because I was not comfortable with attacking a police station where people were heavily armed and when I informed them about the idea to rob the factory, I also told them about the police station and that is when Bongnkosi agreed with me that I had chosen well.

ADV BOSMAN: I'm still not quite clear.  Who first mentioned the possibility of robbing the luggage factory?

ALEX BEKHANI HLONGWANE: It was Mr Msheshe who had these different ideas because I was not comfortable with the police station, he asked me if I could do or carry out the robbery at the firm and I told him that yes, I would prefer to rob the factory rather than the police station because the people there were heavily armed.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Anything arising from these question?

UNKNOWN: No thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HARKOO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hlongwane you're excused, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Harkoo.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman, I call now Mr Andries Bongnkosi Ntjali.

ANDRIES BONGNKOSI NTJALI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Harkoo.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Mr Ntjali, could you tell the members of the Chair, do you know the applicant in this matter, this Alex Hlongwane?

UNKNOWN: If I can come in for a moment.  What is the purpose of this evidence, just for my own clarity?

UNKNOWN: Sorry, Mr Chairman.  The purpose of the evidence of Mr Ntjali is to confirm the involvement of the applicant, his political involvement, the background to the incident that took place and to explain also why in his affidavit he mentioned that he knew nothing of it.  Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Mr Ntjali, do you know the applicant here, Mr Alex Bekhani Hlongwane?

MR NTJALI: Yes, I do.

UNKNOWN: And how long do you know him?

MR NTJALI: Even though I wouldn't be able to estimate exactly how long, but ever since we were growing up.  We grew up together.

UNKNOWN: Were you yourself a member of any political organisation?

MR NTJALI: Yes, I was a member of ANC, but I cannot tell this Committee that I'm a full member because I don't have a membership card.

UNKNOWN: Can you tell the members of the Committee, what was your position in the organisation during the period of 1991/1992?

MR NTJALI: I was one of the people who were protecting the community as from 1991 until 1993.

UNKNOWN: Were you a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR NTJALI: Yes, I was.

UNKNOWN: Do you know whether the applicant, Mr Alex Bekhani Hlongwane was also a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR NTJALI: Yes, I do know.

UNKNOWN: How long were you a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR NTJALI: I would say as from 1991 up until 1992, before my arrest.

UNKNOWN: Okay, going to the time of your arrest, could you tell us the background to this matter to this incident?  How is it that you became involved in this incident?

MR NTJALI: Yes, I'll be able to do so.

UNKNOWN: Can you tell the members of the Committee how did you become involved in this incident?