Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-14

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Now I contacted ...[inaudible] van Schalkwyk of the AWB, a close confidante of mine and I asked him whether Mr Holder and Van Zyl would assist me with this operation.

MR PRINSLOO: And what did he say then of Holder and Van Zyl?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: He told me that when I met them I could trust them and that they would be prepared to assist me with any operation if I needed people and he also told me that I could trust them.

MR PRINSLOO: The AWB at that stage, what was their view on obtaining weapons, or didn't they have any ideas on that?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: They always talked about it that they wanted to obtain weapons but they never really did anything.

MR PRINSLOO: On the 23rd April 1994 did you do any planning?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Everything happened very fast, I really didn't have time to thoroughly do preparation.

MR PRINSLOO: What happened on that day?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Mr Holder and Van Zyl picked me up at the single quarters.

MR PRINSLOO: Was it on your request or theirs?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: It was on my request and from there we went through to Pretoria.  We had a look at the situation Vermeulen Street, there were certain guards at a building, I don't know which building.

MR PRINSLOO: Where would this building be?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: It is in Vermeulen Street in Pretoria.

MR PRINSLOO: Now this particular building, was there any mention made of it in the BWB discussions?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: No not really, I passed it and I then saw that there were any guards.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you accompanied at that opportunity?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes I was, by Gerhard van Rensburg.

MR PRINSLOO: And on this particular day, you say you went to Pretoria, what did you want to do there?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: That was to look at the situation in Vermeulen Street to see whether we could get the weapons from these guys.

MR PRINSLOO: Now this is not from a safe, it is from the person himself?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And after you had a look did you think you could act there?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: No at that stage there were more guards than were expected and I did not want to expose my people to the risk.

MR PRINSLOO: So there was nothing done that day?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: No.

MR PRINSLOO: And what did you do then?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Then we went back to Secunda and on the way I remembered Devon Airforce Base, it was on our way and I then informed Mr Holder and Van Zyl about this and then told them that at the guard gate there are usually two airforce troops, usually they are weaponed with R5 and also 9 mm pistols.

MR PRINSLOO: Continue?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: And we then decided to try and take off these weapons from the guards.  Mr Holder and myself, we put on airforce uniforms along the road and we travelled a bit further and just past the base, we stopped, we got out of the car, we went into the base.

MR PRINSLOO: At that stage you still believed that that base was still operating as an airforce base?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes, that was my impression.

MR PRINSLOO: Continue?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Mr Holder and myself then went to the guard room, that is at the gate.  I walked in first and when I walked in I saw that there were police.  I didn't expect police there.  I then aimed my weapon at the guards and I told them they shouldn't be Rambos, we're from a right-wing organisation, we only want their weapons.  The guard nearest to me smiled at me as if he was thinking I was making a joke and then I ordered him to take out his weapon.  He took out his weapon and he lifted it.  I grabbed it with my left hand and in the meantime Mr Holder passed me, to the other guard, and that was Mr Swart I found out later on and whilst I held Mr Terblanche's weapon with my left arm, a shot went off.  It was Mr Holder or Mr Terblanche who shot.  The lights went out at that stage.  At that stage I thought the lights were shot out and I felt that something is wrong with my arm.
	Mr Terblanche started struggling to get his weapon back and a shot was fired from my pistol.  Mr Terblanche took his weapon and I shot.  Mr Terblanche fell, I took his pistol and Mr Holder and myself left the scene.

MR PRINSLOO: At that point did you realise that those were members of the South African Police?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: What was your aim when you went in there?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: It was to take the weapons from the guards.

MR PRINSLOO: What did you want to do with it?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: That was to use it for the war.

MR PRINSLOO: The weapons would have gone to whom?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Well the one part would have gone to the BWB and the others would have gone to the AWB.

MR PRINSLOO: Now after you had obtained this weapon and Mr Terblanche, that is the deceased, after he had been shot dead did you foresee that you would have killed him, shooting at him.  Did you aim at him?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: No at that stage I didn't really know where I aimed my pistol, I just realised that I had to shoot.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you realise that there could be a possibility that you could kill him?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes I did.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you at that stage in any way act for your own gain, did you have any revenge feelings, did you know the person?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: No I did not.

MR PRINSLOO: The police at that stage, did you see them as part of the government or how did you see it?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: They were part of the government.

MR PRINSLOO: And in the BWB itself, did there exist any system according to which when BWB members acted a message would be sent out so that you could act.

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Well when a cell operated in the BRL they were provided with a telephone number for contact purposes and to say that cell number so and so had accepted responsibility for the deed that had been committed.

MR PRINSLOO: Now after this action, did you feel that there was something wrong with your hand?  What was wrong?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Well I didn't realise at that stage what was wrong.  Only in the car on the way back to Secunda I realised that I had been wounded in the left arm.

MR PRINSLOO: Okay, the person had been shot, you'd taken the firearm and you had left the building, you and Mr Holder?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Where were you taken?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Well we went to the car which had been waiting for us.

MR PRINSLOO: Who was waiting in the car?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: It was Mr van Zyl.

MR PRINSLOO: Is it one of the two applicants on the left?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Where did you go?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: We returned to Secunda.  I requested that they drop me off along the Main Road leading into Secunda because my General lived directly next to the Main Road.  I crossed the wire fence to Mr van Rensburg and he nursed my wound.

MR PRINSLOO: Are you referring to Mr van Rensburg, your fellow cell member, Mr Gerhard van Rensburg?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And then after that?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: And as a member of the AWB he took me to this person and in the meanwhile the BWB headquarters in Rustenburg had been approached by him to find out whether there was a doctor who was supporting our cause.  In the meanwhile I returned to a doctor and he took me to the member where the doctor treated me.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you treated there by the doctor?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you later hospitalised?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: How long were you in hospital?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Approximately two weeks.

MR PRINSLOO: And at that stage was the BWB aware of your action or not?