Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-28

MR NTANUNU: I think I'd better read the other affidavit of Ndzamela, Honourable Chair.  Thank you very much for that.  Honourable Chair and Honourable Members, there is also the confirmatory affidavit to which Ndzamela has deposed.  Ndzamela is the one who has been mentioned in paragraph 4 of Mayapi's affidavit, Exhibit A.  I will relate
"I, the undersigned, Ndibulele Ndzamela, do hereby declare under that (1)
		I am the deponent herein and the facts deposed to are within my personal knowledge both true and correct.  I have applied for amnesty in terms of Section 18 of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act 34 of 1995, and my reference number is AM5051/97.  The affidavit of Pumzile Mayapi has been read and interpreted to me.  I confirm all that appears therein.  I also further pray that it may please this Honourable Amnesty Committee to grant this amnesty application."
Those are the affidavits, Honourable Chair and Honourable Members, to which the two applicants have deposed.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Ntanunu.  Before I proceed to let Mr Mayapi take the oath - Miss Patel, there are some other documents here, it just occurs to me now there is some statement which was made to the police and something else as well.  Is this part of the record?

MS PATEL: Are you referring to the statements by other victims whom you've not managed to trace, Honourable Chairperson, is that what you are referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'll give you the names that I have here, but a Martha Boshoff and Wishlo Nowak.  Is that supposed to be part of the papers or what?

MS PATEL: Yes, Honourable Chairperson, these are included mainly for the possibility, or for purposes of R&R on the possibilities of the case.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, in that event then we are going to mark them as well, just not to get our lines crossed.  I just want to see exactly what it is.  Oh yes, there are three - yes, the two are affidavits and the other one seems to be a statement by Mrs Ntakana.  We'll mark the affidavit of Martha Boshoff as Exhibit C and the affidavit of Wishlo Nowak as Exhibit D and the statement of Margaret Ntakana as Exhibit E.  I assume that all the parties have copies of this in their possession.  It might or might not be material.
	Mr Ntanunu, do you want me to administer the oath to Mr Mayapi?

MR NTANUNU: Yes, please, Honourable Chair.

PUMZILE MAYAPI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down.  Yes, Mr
Ntanunu?

MR NTANUNU: Thank you very much, Honourable Chair and Honourable Members of the Amnesty Committee.
	Mr Mayapi, just some few things.  In the affidavit to which you have deposed, we haven't talked about whether you later heard that there had in fact been an explosion or not, that it in fact did go off, can you comment on that?

PUMZILE MAYAPI: Will you please repeat your question, Sir.

MR NTANUNU: I was saying, in the affidavit to which you have deposed, there is no mention of you hearing that the limpet mines you put in the toilet in the casino did in fact explode as you had planned.

PUMZILE MAYAPI: It is true that no mention is made concerning that part in the affidavit, but about the explosion it was heard through the newspapers, that there was an explosion.

MR NTANUNU: Now you have indicated, Mr Mayapi, that you had placed the limpet mines, two limpet mines under a sewerage pipe, can you just perhaps tell the Honourable Amnesty Committee and everybody who is here, to whom, at what did you aim the said explosion of those mines?  What did you have in particular, what did you have in mind in particular in placing those two mines under the pipe in that toilet?

PUMZILE MAYAPI: In this incident the purpose was to make a statement from our part as the freedom fighters.  We wanted to make a statement to show that after all the events that took place before this explosion and the situation in the whole country.  There was a need, as the ANC had instructed that the message that will come out of this battle should be heard in the whole country.  That is why we had to embark on this plan of the Wild Coast Casino, to show the people that the ANC and MK are existing and they are alive and they do have the authority to respond or do something whenever necessary.  Thank you.

MR NTANUNU: Okay, thank you.  Now in your affidavit mention has been made of the fact that you were acting under the command, it was the command structure, and you've mentioned Mazibu Xgeza(?) as the person who was your commander.  Now I'm not a military man and do not know the consequences or the roles insofar as carrying out of commands given to you by your commander.  Can you just briefly tell the Honourable Amnesty Committee what one is supposed to do when he is in fact given a command of the nature you were given.

PUMZILE MAYAPI: First of all, if you join the military - I want to talk specifically about our own organisation, Umkhonto weSizwe, we were told that the military work, according to commands, we called those commands "the orders" in the army language.  That is how the things are done once you are committed as a member of that army.
	There is normally a hierarchy in the army you know, who is above you, up to the highest level of the hierarchy.  You are a combatant, a disciplined one.  You are obliged that if an order has been issued, you have to execute or carry out and do what it says.  That is the procedure in the structure of the army.

MR NTANUNU: Thank you very much, Mr Mayapi.  Just one last aspect.  You have been informed that in the explosion ...(indistinct) a small boy of about 12 years, if I'm not making a mistake, passed away and further, that Mr Hudson who had apparently gone there as a visitor at ...(indistinct), also passed away, and further that there were some other people who were injured in the explosion in question.  You heard that?

PUMZILE MAYAPI: Yes, that is correct, I heard about that.

MR NTANUNU: Now we have got amongst us here, I think the mother of the boy in question is around us here and also the doctors of Mr Hudson, who passed away in the incident, are also here and many other people who are related to those who passed away and also those who were injured.  Now how do you feel and what can you say to them?  How do you feel about all this and what can you say to them?

PUMZILE MAYAPI: First of all, I would like to thank you for this opportunity that was offered to me by the TRC, to create a situation whereby I could come and see the people who encountered a loss during this incident, so as to see them face to face and be able to say to them we humbly apologise about this.  I'm so happy to see them.  I haven't seen them before.  I did not know them.  I am asking for forgiveness from them and I know it's going to be difficult for them, but I am humbly requesting them to understand the situation that was prevailing at the time in South Africa, that it was a situation that was beyond description.  I am certain that almost in each and every third family in South Africa, each and every third family has been affected by this conflict in South Africa.
	I want to talk about this incident.  Our mission was not aimed at them as families.  As I've already explained, we did not even know them, but it was a situation that was prevailing at the time and that was beyond anyone's control.  I will end there.  I want to say to them I am asking for forgiveness.

MR NTANUNU: Now lastly, Mr Mayapi, is there anything perhaps which you would like to add on what you have deposed to in the affidavit and also what I've led you in?

PUMZILE MAYAPI: At the moment I think that there is nothing else that I would like to add, but if anyone would like to get any clarification concerning the affidavit, I will be willing to assist there.  Thank you.

MR NTANUNU: Thank you, Honourable Chair, I think that is all in respect of Mr Mayapi.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NTANUNU