Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-20

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: The plan was indeed secret and the people behind this assassination plan were indeed sitting in a car, in the state vehicle and people talking around would not necessarily show or you wouldn't know what they are talking about.  Therefore they held short discussions with the other AWB members and they returned to the car.  That was not the beginning of the assassination plot but it was a continuation, they were still discussing how they were going to carry it out, using us as their boys.

MR NEL: You were not in that vehicle listening to the discussion were you?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I was in the car and they were discussing outside the car.

MR NEL: Correct me if I'm wrong, Mr Gwamanda, you say that these discussions were in secret, people were sitting in a state vehicle, the question is, were you with these people discussing the execution of this plan?

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Nel, there's a bit of a misunderstanding.  They were in the state vehicle, the four prisoners had been taken there in the state vehicle according to his evidence, the person who was driving the vehicle got out the vehicle, went and spoke to somebody else.  Those are the discussions he's talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: I think those other people were at the 4X4s.

MR LAX: That's the gist of his evidence so far.

MR NEL: You did not know or you do no know what discussions took place, wherever it took place, because  you were in the vehicle?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes, I do not know.

MR NEL: Before all these discussions, before the actual day of the execution of this plan, you say that you were fully trained in the use of R1 rifle, 9mm pistol, AK47, 765 revolver etc?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: That is correct, as well as hand-grenades.

MR NEL: As well as hand-grenades?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR NEL: And did this take place on the shooting range?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes, it did.

MR NEL: You have a record of using firearms during the commission of various offences.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: What are you referring to?  I would like to explain.  With regards to that record, the case went on appeal because the gun did not belong to me.  That is with reference to the record.  I was wrongly convicted and I did win the case on appeal.  At that time I was not trained or thoroughly trained, not before I went to the prison and was trained.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel, what is the point of this cross-examination?  The fact that he may have used firearms in an offence doesn't preclude later training does it?

MR NEL: Mr Chairman, where I'm heading is that I would find it very strange that a person with his type of record would be left alone and trained by members of the Correctional Services with an AK, who knows what he could do with it whilst doing that training.  That was the line of thought.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Is there any criminal or inmate who has a right to be trained or to be trained in the handling of firearms regardless of whether they have a record or not?  Is there any prisoner indeed who has a right to be trained?

CHAIRPERSON: I think this whole thing is really a question of argument really.  The answer is also one that can be used in argument.

MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Gwamanda, in conclusion, my instructions are that the persons mentioned by you, Colonel Roets, Lieutenant Venter, Sergeant Venter and Joubert deny the allegations that they were ever involved in the plot or a plot, planning this assassination of Mr Phosa with you, at any stage.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: They are telling blue lies.  How did I ever get to "skietbaan" in the first place.  Secondly, what grudge would I have against them?  Why would I single out Matthew Phosa?  This matter has been going on every since the Goldstone Commission.  It's been investigated and I'd been asked to identify the different camps.  How would I get there if I was just incarcerated in the Barberton Prison, how would I know about all of these things?

MR NEL: And they will further also deny that they ever took part in training you in the use of various firearms as stated by yourself.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: They must be taking you for a ride, Sir, because they shouldn't deny what they know.  They should maybe explain to you about Gwamanda and Elijah Mhlongo and explain what all these criminals and prisoners were doing at "skietbaan".  We were trained and we would practice at the shooting range.  My ear was damaged and I've had an operation on it because of that target practice.
	If you do not believe me I would be prepared to demonstrate from a distance of 300 metres.  I can demonstrate and then you can decide for yourself where I learnt or where I got this training   ...[intervention]

MR NEL: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Nel.  Mr Mukadam?

MR MUKADAM: Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Gwamanda, you testified that you were in prison the period up to November '93, I'm sorry, March '93.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: That is correct.

MR MUKADAM: And for the current offence you were arrested again in December '93, were you released on bail pending your trial or were you in custody when you were arrested?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I was not released on bail because I heard a rumour that I was supposed to be murdered or killed.  I was threatened with death on several occasions and also terrorised.

MR MUKADAM: By whom were these threats made?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Stanley Mabanga from the Murder and Robbery Unit.  Even in the photographs that were taken at CR Swart, I was injured, I was assaulted because they assaulted me, Mabanga and others.  He was saying I should stop what I was doing.
	Even when the King was here in Durban he booked me out and he told me that I should stop reporting or giving information to the Goldstone Commission.  And my wife could not even get in contact with me.  I reported all of these matters to the Court but my evidence was not accepted.  There is a lot that I have suffered through but I will not mention it here because it is contained in the records.

MR MUKADAM: So you were in prison in December '93 and then you were sentenced on the 29th of November 1994 and you are still in prison, is that correct?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: That is correct.

MR MUKADAM: Now whilst you were in - what is important for us to understand is that whilst you were in prison on Barberton, during that period you were allowed out of the prison as you say by the warders for training and a plot to assassinate Mr Phosa.  Now were you ever left or taken out of prison at any other time?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Besides the training I did or I was allowed out of the prison.  Sometimes we would go out to the township and drink beer and see our girlfriends, sometimes go to the butchery, sometimes I would go to the stadiums in Barberton to watch soccer.
	There are businessmen in Barberton whom I know from the township.  We would be in private clothing, like tracksuits.  We would behave like free men and I was sleeping with my girlfriend who even got pregnant at that time.
	All my relatives and neighbours in the township know that I had this girlfriend, Sophie.

MR MUKADAM: Do you know of any further plots to assassinate Mr Phosa?