Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-25

MR VISSER: No Chairperson, no with respect, paragraph 32 at page 7 Chairperson, of Exhibit D makes it quite clear that Botha told the Committee exactly that, he told the Committee that soon after Shabalala was arrested they realised that there was a problem and they made a plan and he sets out the plan, Chairperson and that plan he says, in the last sentence, he supposed that Shabalala would not be released, in other words that they would have to keep him or eliminate him.  So it's not fair to say that that was never tendered.

MR WILLS: Thank you Chairperson, I'll leave that, I don't have note of that in my translation but be that as it may, I'll move on.

MR LAX: Sorry, if I can intervene?  Mr Visser, where in paragraph 32 does it say they became aware that Shabalala would have to be murdered?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, the last sentence says and there's another, I did not want to belabour the point but if you turn to page 30, Chairperson, where Botha deals with the situation directly after the arrest.  No, paragraph 30, Chairperson, of Exhibit D where Botha deals with the situation vis-a-vis Shabalala directly after the arrest, he says in paragraph 30 at that stage already the thought that Shabalala might possibly have to be eliminated had already occurred to him.

MR LAX: You see my recollection of his viva voce testimony was the thought occurred to him but it was not clear whether he necessarily spoke to anyone else about it.

MR VISSER: But that appears over the page at paragraph 32.

MR LAX: Yes, no, no.

MR VISSER: Where it becomes clear that it wasn't only him, it was obviously a discussion including Mr Ndaba.

MR LAX: Except to say that at that stage it's not the exclusive conclusion they reached?

MR VISSER: No, no, no, that is clear, that is clear.

MR LAX: In other words there were still other options they were thinking about?

MR VISSER: Oh yes, that was the whole point according to Botha for holding on to Shabalala, to see how things developed.  Yes indeed.

MR LAX: This witness has testified differently.

MR VISSER: Oh.

MR LAX: This witness has said earlier on his elimination was clear, that's very different to ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: I'm not pre-empting that issue.

MR LAX: Yes and that's really what Mr Wills is putting to him.

MR VISSER: Oh I see.

MR LAX: In other words there's no evidence that earlier on there was a discussion about his elimination as the only option.

MR VISSER: I see, in so many words?

MR LAX: Yes.

MR VISSER: No, fair enough Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Thank you Chairperson, I'll move on.  The evidence of your colleague, Wasserman, has been to the effect that on the day of his arrest - sorry, on the day of his elimination Ndaba appeared to be fine, do you recall that?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I cannot remember now that Wasserman had said it.

MR WILLS: He went on to say that possibly he was slightly upset but he couldn't define how he - what he meant there.  You don't recall that evidence?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I don't remember it now.

MR WILLS: What was - you saw, you must have seen Ndaba on the day of his death?

MR WILLS: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: And how did he appear to you?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Normal, Chairperson.  I cannot say that he was overtly nervous.

MR WILLS: Did you have a good chance to observe him?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No, I did not speak to him on that day.

MR WILLS: I'm saying to observe him, you saw him?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I did see him in the house.

MR WILLS: Now tell me, from when you saw him on that Saturday, what time did you first see him on Saturday?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I saw him when I arrived at the house and then I saw Ndaba.

MR WILLS: What time was that?  I'm talking about you observing Ndaba.  What time did you first see him on Saturday, the 14th, the day that he was killed?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I think it was in the morning, late morning hours when I arrived.

MR WILLS: And what was the circumstances of that observation?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I saw Ndaba sitting there and he was in the room where he was normally, there was nothing funny about anything.

MR WILLS: And then you obviously saw him from the time he was in the car right up until the time of his death?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: And there was nothing abnormal about him?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Not that I can remember, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Did you look to you as a man who has to get his mind right and was so worried?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I did not have conversations with him.  Botha was the one that spoke to him.

MR WILLS: How do you know that Nyanda was arrested before Provan Gordon?  What makes you sure of that?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, as far as I know Nyanda was the first arrested was effected and after this we sent out a radio report that Nyanda had been arrested and what I had heard afterwards is that everyone else was then arrested at other places.

MR WILLS: You've got no personal knowledge of this, just from what you hear from other people?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I was not present at the arrest of the other people, I was only present at the arrest of Nyanda in the morning.

MR WILLS: The time that these people were detained in the safe house in Verulam, were any Black policemen involved?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Were there any Black policemen at the house?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: The members of C20, none of them were Black?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: What about the four informers?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: They were Black people.

MR WILLS: Were they askaris?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Who were they?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: They were informers.

MR WILLS: Do you know who they were, what their identities were?

MR VISSER: How does that take the matter any further, Chairperson, with respect?  My learned friend knows that the witnesses are not prepared to divulge the identity of the informers?

MR WILLS: Chairperson, there's evidence to the effect which I'll be putting to this witness is the fact that certain persons arrived at the house of the wife of the deceased on the day of the 13th and I think on the 20th and I'm just trying to establish identities.

MR VISSER: That is Mr Shabalala's house.

MR WILLS: Thank you Chairperson, may I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, is the suggestion that some of these so called informers were the people who went to Shabalala's house?

MR WILLS: I just trying to find out who they are, we don't know who they were Chairperson, but we might be able to identify them.  We know the names of one of them, we think we know the name of one.

CHAIRPERSON: I can't see the relevance of it.  If you have names of people who went to Mr Shabalala's house and you put the names to the witness and ask him were these people at Verulam on that day it's a different matter.

MR WILLS: Thank you Chairperson.
	Do you know a person by the name of Mdunjana?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.   Matt?

MR WILLS: Mdunjana.  I think it's M-D-U-N-J-A-N-A.

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Are you aware of any orders that were given to attend at the house of the deceased on the 13th - he wasn't the deceased then, obviously?

MR LAX: Which one?

CHAIRPERSON: Which one, there are two deceased we're talking about?

MR WILLS: Thank you Chairperson.  The house of Shabalala, his wife May Rose Shabalala's house?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Are you aware of the fact that they were arrested and taken to C.R. Swart Police Station on that day?