Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: As I had stated during my previous testimony the security branch dealt with their own cases and I wish to confirm and emphasise that nobody, but nobody emphasised me or the advocate to use Mr Rambota as a witness.

MP PIGOU: But I just want, on this particular point, it seems from what Mr Potgieter is saying that the Security branch were conducting a parallel investigation.  Now you told us earlier that your impression was that the Security Branch was cooperating with you.  Now it seems clear to me that certain - if a parallel investigation was being conducted a docket was being submitted or at least that was the intention to submit a docket to the attorney general, that you were having information withheld from you by the Security Branch, would you agree with me?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I cannot reply to this.  If you refer to a parallel investigation this may be so, but the information which I referred to which was shared with me concerned the Football team and it had nothing to do with any other investigation.  That investigation is something I have no knowledge of, they did their own things and did their own investigation.

MP PIGOU: With respect Superintendent Dempsey, this is an investigation which the Security Branch, or a member of the Security Branch is saying that they conducted into Mrs Mandela and the Stompie Seipei incident, not about the Football Club, about Stompie Seipei, and this information or this docket you have not had sight of by all accounts, is that the case?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I confirm I never had insight into it.

MP PIGOU: Thank you, no further questions for this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I wonder whether you didn't want to go on to Mr Moodley and then, I mean I thought that was how we handled the other ...(intervention)

MP PIGOU: Ja we can do that Arch if you like.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MP PIGOU: I think there is some difficulty, and I would reiterate what you have already said that it would be extremely important to have Mr Hesslinga here because as the commanding officer of the investigation that we are going to be talking about now it will be very useful for us to actually have him here because there are certain things which I think only he can answer.  But I will try and direct my questions to Superintendent Moodley and hopefully he will be able to answer me but maybe it is Superintendent Hesslinga's call on those particular things.
 Superintendent Moodley, is it Senior Superintendent or Superintendent?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: Senior superintendent.

MP PIGOU: I beg your pardon, Senior Superintendent Moodley, could you tell the Commission what was your position in Soweto Police in 1989?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: I was then a warrant officer and investigator at the Murder and Robbery Unit Mr Chair.

MP PIGOU: Did you have any previous experience with the Security Branch of the South African Police?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: Yes I had.

MP PIGOU: Where was that experience Sir?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: In Durban.

MP PIGOU: And when you came up to Soweto you had moved then into the usual detective services is that correct?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: That's correct yes, I was first in the uniform branch for a while and then the detective services.

MP PIGOU: In 1995 you were part of an investigation unit under the head of Snr Superintendent, now Director Henk Hesslinga into the murder of Dr Abu-Baker Asvat is that correct?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MP PIGOU: Could you tell us who the other members of the team were that were investigating this case?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: Yes there was one Kudi, Dave Soritch and then Warrant Officer now Director, Molaba (...indistinct) Molaba.

MP PIGOU: Could you tell us the circumstances which resulted in this case actually being re-investigated or re-opened with a new emphasis?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: From what was said to me by - or what the letter that was sent to my office, that's being the Murder and Robbery Unit then, was that the Commissioner of Police requested that the dockets be re-opened at the request of Tony Leon and the Abu-Baker Asvat family and that's how the whole investigation had restarted.

MP PIGOU: Okay.  Now my understanding is from reading the investigation docket which I believe is, or the investigation diary which is in everybody's files hopefully by now, that there were four cases under investigation during the course of this investigation - the murder of Dr Asvat, disappearances of Mr Sono and Mr Shabalala and then the fourth investigation the murder of the person known as Kuki Zwane, is that correct?

HOOTHRA MOODLEY: Yes Mr Chair, when it originally started it was just the Dr Asvat and the Lolo Sono matter, subsequent to that we had discovered the Kuki murder, after the investigation was in process.

MP PIGOU: Perhaps you could tell us, give us some idea of how the Kuki Zwane case became one of your cases then in this particular investigation?