Amnesty Hearings — Mabopane — 1998-08-06

MALOSI LEHOBYE: I know very well.

MR MOLOPE: The way I know, when the police arrived at school they would instruct us to disperse.  If we are stubborn it's then that they would start.  I was one of those students who would flee.  I'm surprised at what you're saying, that Mr Molope pushed his baton in your mouth.  They did not even have time to talk to students, they just said we should disperse.  I dispute what you are saying.

MALOSI LEHOBYE: I agree with you my brother, that they did not have time with the students, they just said we should disperse, that's what your father did.  I don't agree with you when you said they gave us time to disperse.
	You and I know very well, we were students, the police said we'd give you five minutes to disperse then you know that that five minutes was not even half a minute.  They did that fighting us.  You're telling the truth that we were fleeing but you see I was extraordinary student, I was a leader and I therefore had a responsibility to protect my fellow students.  ...[no English translation] to speak to him and I have done so on many occasions. 
	When the police attacked the people or when the people did not want us to march, as a leader I would go forward to negotiate with the police.  I did that.

MR MOLOPE: I agree with you that that could have happened to you but at the time when the police came, when they arrived, finding that students are destroying property, it is then that they would do something.  I would agree with you when you say that the situation was not normal, then it happened that the baton was in our mouth.  But when you say Brigadier Molope came to you and talked with you whilst nothing was happening I don't agree.

MALOSI LEHOBYE: We were in an assembly and I was a leader addressing the students when the police came with many vehicles.  Your father trampled on the corpse on the stoep and then he gave orders.  I never led a group ...[no English translation] I have never done so. We were not destroying property we were on the assembly, then we were attacked by the police.
	I went to him and pleaded with him that the police should stop so that we will be able to negotiate.  That is what happened on that day.  I don't want you to say I don't know your father.  I don't know what is happening to you.  It was difficult for me to appear before this Commission to testify on behalf of the comrades who appear here.
	I'm pleading with you together with Mum and the family that apartheid divided various communities.  The Sebe brothers were not able to bury one another, the other one was afraid to go and see his mother on the sick bed because of apartheid.  
	You, Molope's family, because of the problems of apartheid, for a long time you were isolated.  ...[no English translation] that those kids who are behind me have nothing against you as people, together with your family.  We were in a fight, we were in a war.  It was a bad thing to have lost your father but the truth is we found ourselves in a situation of war.  	Two attempts were made on my life and that experience traumatised my family.  Like one of the comrades would have said, it would be happy that when we go on with our lives, that's what these applicants area saying to you.  The Committee will actually appreciate what we are trying to do.
	Like I said earlier on it is very difficult for me to come and testify particularly because I know that family.  I have been very, very close to the family you know, we worship together.  It's very difficult but I really have to do it and somebody of course must do what I am doing.  I thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you finished Mr Molope or is there anything else?

MR MOLOPE: Mr Lehobye, Mr Molope is not here today.  You are saying what happened at that time.  If he was here he would be able to respond but I'm talking about what was happening.  I was a student during the apartheid era and I didn't like apartheid.
	You should not try to tell this Committee that my father pushed a baton in your mouth because he is not present today.  Many things happened I agree but you should not put it that way and expect us to just keep quiet.  
	I like what is happening today, the way life is today and what you are saying here today, Brigadier Molope is not here today.  If he was here he would tell you that you are lying.  The way you put it you are asking us to agree with you.

MALOSI LEHOBYE: I'm sorry that Brigadier Molope is not here today.  My intention here is to explain to the Committee the perception of the community, how the community looked at your father and perceived your father as a commander of this area.  That is my intention.  I'm very sorry that your father is not here and I'm aware of that.  Even if he was here I wouldn't be arguing with him but I would be stating facts as they were.

MR MOLOPE: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOLOPE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lengane, do you have any re-examination?

MR LENGANE: No, I don't.
NO EXAMINATION BY MR LENGANE

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

ADV BOSMAN: I have not questions, thank you Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata?

ADV MOTATA: Just one or two Mr Chairman.
	Mr Lehobye, did Brigadier Molope know you personally, because you have stated that you knew the family well, you attended school with some of his offspring and worshipped with his family.  What I want to know, him personally, did you know each other?

MALOSI LEHOBYE: Tata Molope knew me, yes.

ADV MOTATA: Now other than a baton thrust in your open mouth, did he ever assault you on that occasion?

MALOSI LEHOBYE: Not on that occasion.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lehobye, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED