Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-25

ALFRED MANDLA MHLAMBO: What happened there, the deceased was asked and thereafter explaining, then thereafter she was assaulted.  Not that she was forced.  She didn't answer because she was forced.
	Even herself, she admitted that in all the things that she had done, she realised that she had done the faults.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just on that Mr Mhlambo, if she hadn't admitted, if she kept her mouth closed and didn't answer any questions, do you think she would have been killed?

ALFRED MANDLA MHLAMBO: No.

MS THABETE: I must say Mr Mhlambo, that is strange, because earlier on you said to me it didn't matter what the reason was for someone to go to an IFP area, she or he would be killed.  I find it strange that now, if she had maybe given you a reason or denied the fact that she was a sell-out, she would not have been killed.  But anyway, let's move on.

MR LAX: Maybe let him comment to the point you are putting to him.

MS THABETE: Respond, okay.

ALFRED MANDLA MHLAMBO: What I was trying to explain is that due to the fact that people who were ANC members, were actually resented in the IFP area, such that any one going there, would be killed.
	It wasn't easy at all for me to go there, it wasn't easy for me to leave such a person who was from that area, and actually implicitly indicating to me, that there are others as well that are on the death row.
	She realised that such people were ANC activists.

MS THABETE: Can you tell us how actually saw the deceased going to an IFP area?

ALFRED MANDLA MHLAMBO: People who saw her, it was Spelo Khanyile and Hector Sikakane and Xolani Tsotetsi who were in the car at that particular time, and Thami Zondi.  He was also in the car on that particular night.

MS THABETE: What time was it?

ALFRED MANDLA MHLAMBO: According to their explanation it was late in the afternoon, at about half past to two to quarter to three.

MS THABETE: I want your comment on this as well, which is my last question.
	Don't you think that it is also strange for someone who is a sell-out to go at broad daylight to an IFP area, to take the names of the ANC people or to so to say, to go and be impimpi or a sell-out as they call it, in broad daylight?  Don't you think that is strange?

ALFRED MANDLA MHLAMBO: Yes, it should be strange in a way you explain it, however, the way I see it from my point of view, if you are used to a thing, you actually know that you usually do it without any problems.  Then you would actually do it even during the day and not actually realising that you are actually putting yourself in danger.

MS THABETE: No further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete.  Mr Sipho, do you have any re-examination?

MR SIPHO: Perhaps there is just one question, which may not really be re-examination, but which I omitted to put earlier, perhaps.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SIPHO: It might just help to clarify something.  Were you aware of any function being held on the date of the murder, by either one of the political parties in the area?

ALFRED MANDLA MHLAMBO: On that day ... (tape ends) ... IFP rally, the IFP leader, Mr Buthelezi was there.

MR SIPHO: Nothing further Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIPHO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Sorry, where was the rally?

ALFRED MANDLA MHLAMBO: They actually wanted to hold the rally inside the township, and fortunately there was a stadium, that is a bit far away from the township, and then they decided, the councillors decided that they should go there instead of having the rally inside the township, as they realised that there was this political opposition amongst the two.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, have you got any questions to put to the witness?

MR LAX: Just one question Chairperson.  Mr Mhlambo, you have, maybe I just gained the wrong impression, but you seemed to give the impression that Nhlalagahle was primarily and ANC area.  Is it not in fact correct that there were IFP people who lived in Nhlalagahle, but due to the violence, most of them left and ultimately there was peace in the area, because there were only ANC people left there?  Is that not the correct impression?

ALFRED MANDLA MHLAMBO: What happened there, everyone who was originally from there, were ANC members, and thereafter some people from the rural areas actually got houses inside the township by communicating with the people in the hostels, then they started becoming IFP activists, who are outsiders, but now have become residents.
	Not that it is a person originally who was born there, who actually became an IFP member and actually instigated that people should be IFP members.  That is why I am explaining that the IFP stronghold is the hostel.  I don't deny it that there are people who actually left the area, because they were IFP members.
	But yes indeed, there were people who actually moved away from the township.

MR LAX: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Mhlambo, did you ever see that the deceased had in fact two cards, one ANC and the other IFP?

ALFRED MANDLA MHLAMBO: What I knew from her is the ANC card.  However, my other brother, comrade said he actually knew her card, the IFP card.

MR SIBANYONI: When you say people at Nhlalagahle did not have a relation with relatives at the hostel, are you saying also there was no possibility that a person will have a love affair with a man staying at the compound, like in the case of the deceased?  Was that totally excluded?

ALFRED MANDLA MHLAMBO: That will be possible that there is somebody who would have lover who resides in the hostel, however, due to the fact that the situation was as it was, it wasn't easy to find somebody from the township who would actually just directly go to the hostel, referring to the situation at that particular time.
	The situation was such that even though you had such a relationship, you would actually meet in town or somewhere else, or phone each other, and arrange where you can meet.

MR SIBANYONI: If I understood you correctly, when you people saw the deceased, you started assaulting her and then thereafter, she started admitting the allegations that she was a member of the ANC and the IFP at the same time, am I correct?  Did I understand you correctly?

ALFRED MANDLA MHLAMBO: Yes, she admitted after being assaulted, but what happened is that before she was questioned, and asked what was she doing in the hostel.
	By the explanation we received from Spelo because we found him hitting, assaulting her, he indicated to us that the deceased indicated that she went there because of the job that she is doing.

MR SIBANYONI: Which job?

ALFRED MANDLA MHLAMBO: Giving them names of ANC activists.

MR SIBANYONI: You said the police confirmed that she was their informer.  To whom did the police confirm or who are those police who said so?

ALFRED MANDLA MHLAMBO: We can actually, if we start by saying who those police were, I remember Vusi Skosana and when he was saying that, he was actually saying that to us, as he was actually telling us that we deserved to be hanged because we stopped them, or we prevented them from doing their job by actually killing the person who was being helpful to them, for them to continue their work as police.

MR SIBANYONI: Is it only Vusi Skosana who confirmed that she was their informer?

ALFRED MANDLA MHLAMBO: The person who actually uttered, it was Vusi Skosana.  I wouldn't know then the other police, because they were not in the same room.  We would actually meet when we were in court.
	It is possible that there some of my colleagues, comrades can actually tell you more about that.

MR SIBANYONI: You said Msolo made a sign, an indication that she should be killed by putting his arm on the neck.  Can you demonstrate to us how did Msolo do it?