Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-20

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I'm going to just ask any of the other persons at the end of the round, whether they want to ask any
questions regarding these other dresses to Mr Mbane, seeing that that has been brought in at this stage.
	Ms Thabethe, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Mbane?

MS THABETHE: Yes Mr Chair, I do thank you.
	Mr Mbane, yesterday afternoon I also had an opportunity of speaking to Mrs Dludla the neighbour about the dress and she seemed to indicate that it's the dress that Ntombi Kubheka was wearing on that day, what would be your response to that?

CHAIRPERSON: You're talking about Exhibit 1?

MS THABETHE: Exhibit 1.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: As I have already mentioned that I cannot remember what she was wearing, so I cannot agree or disagree with that.

MS THABETHE: You've indicated in your evidence that at some stage you went to Ntombi's house at KwaMashu, when you were there was there anybody else present in the house besides her?

CHAIRPERSON: Well that would be besides the people that you went with.  Did you find any other people there or did any other people come there?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, sometimes we would find her with another lady, I think she was also staying nearby.

MS THABETHE: Now I'm moving to Battery Beach.  When you arrived at Battery Beach, you indicated in your evidence that Dube and Radebe alighted, do you think the white superiors saw them getting off the car?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: They alighted before the car with the white men came.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, you're talking at Battery Beach?

MS THABETHE: At Battery Beach, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you got to Battery Beach you were the first one to get there, your vehicle was the first of the police vehicles to get there, is that what you're saying?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Was Coetzer present during the abduction at Battery Beach?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Was Wasserman present?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, he was present.

MS THABETHE: I'm moving now to Winkelspruit.  You have indicated that he heard her scream, was it like shouting or was it more of crying screams?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Both, she did both.

MS THABETHE: Could you hear the people who were interrogating her, what they were saying?  Could you hear what they were saying, what questions they were asking her? From where you were.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: ...(no interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, we lost the interpretation.  The question was - if you could just repeat your answer please, Mr Mbane, the question was, could you hear what the people were saying in the room?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, I could not hear but I could hear that they were talking to her, but I couldn't understand or hear what they were saying.

MS THABETHE: Did you ever see Ms Kubheka at Winkelspruit?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: As they would open the door sometimes I would see her sitting down, when the door was opened.

MS THABETHE: Could you see whether she was bound?

INTERPRETER: Could you please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you please repeat the question.

MS THABETHE: Could you see whether she was bound, like her hands and her feet?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Were her hands bound?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, they were.

MS THABETHE: And her feet?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Her hands were bound and she was blindfolded.  I cannot remember about the feet.

MS THABETHE: Before this incident occurred where were you sleeping?   Were you sleeping at CR Swart or at Winkelspruit?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: At Winkelspruit.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) from the evidence, Ms Thabethe, they were sleeping in both places but they moved, according to Mr Mbane, from CR Swart to Winkelspruit.

MS THABETHE: Now in your evidence you had indicated that you were asked to hand over the MK operatives that were introduced to you by Ntombi Kubheka, why do you think they had to be handed over to them?  Were any reasons advanced why you had to hand them over to your superiors?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: The reason was because when we gave them reports they told us to come with those people and they will see what to do, so we were following orders.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabethe.  Before I ask you to re-examine, Mr Samuel, I'm just going to ask if anybody has any
questions to put to Mr Mbane concerning Exhibits 4 and 5 that have been introduced.  Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I don't have questions on the exhibits, a new piece of evidence has been introduced and I would ask you to ask very brief question or two about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Mr Mbane, I listened very carefully to your evidence yesterday and today and I want to put to you that this is the first time that you say, that you stated in your evidence that when the door was opened you saw Kubheka in the storeroom, am I correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, I can hear you.

MR VISSER: So if this happened, why didn't you tell us about this before?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It is because you did not ask me that question.

MR VISSER: Your lawyer was leading your evidence, your lawyer was leading your evidence, Mr Mbane, why didn't you tell us that you could see inside the storeroom?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: When the door would be opened and closed again, when it was opened I could see inside because I was in the veranda.

MR VISSER: Why didn't you tell the Committee that yesterday or today?

MR SAMUEL: Mr Chairman, I believe that when I put Mr Mbane's version to the other witness, Mr Botha, I did indicate that when the doors were opened he had seen ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but the question is why didn't he say it when he was testifying.

MR VISSER: Really Mr Chairman, my learned friend should think before he objects, because that's not what I'm putting to the witness.

MR SAMUEL: Sorry Mr Chairman, I did not raise an objection, I just mentioned that ...

MR VISSER: Why didn't you tell us about that, Mr Mbane?  In fact, can I tell you what you said?  When you were asked about whether you could see inside the storeroom you said you could not see inside the storeroom.  That was your answer.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I could only see when the door was opened because I was sitting in the veranda.  The door would be opened and then closed again.

MR VISSER: In fact here is the question that your lawyer put to you
"Could you see inside the room?"
answer:
"No, I did not see her."
That's it, you didn't qualify it.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I could not see when the door was closed, but I could only see when the door was opened.

CHAIRPERSON: Who can see through a closed door unless it's made of glass?  We know it's not made of glass, it's made of wood, so why do you say that you didn't anything through the door because you can't see when the door is closed?  It doesn't make sense.  And if you were there and the door was closed and opening and you from time to time could see in the room, then you would say you could see in the room from time to time.  Your answer wouldn't be "I couldn't see in the room when the door was closed", when you can see when it was open.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It didn't come to my mind to answer it that way.  I apologise.

MR VISSER: I just want to put it to you, Mr Wasserman was not present at Battery Beach where Kubheka was arrested, abducted.  Lawrie wasn't there.  I put it to you.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I am saying that he was there and you are saying that he was not there, so who is correct between me and you?  I don't know.

MR VISSER: Well I will make certain submissions on your credibility, Mr Mbane.
	Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo, any questions?
NO QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel?
NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe?
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, you didn't want to ask anything about the clothes.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE