Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-30

MR NEL: Chairperson, the last applicant is ...(inaudible) for your involvement and participation in the assault of Mr Pravine Gordhan and you set out your amnesty application in the bundle found on page 22 which runs through up to page 26, is that correct?

MR BOTHMA: (sworn states)
	That is correct.

MR NEL: Mr Bothma, you are still in the Police Service today, is that correct?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct.

MR NEL: And your current rank?

MR BOTHMA: I'm a Superintendent.

MR NEL: During the assault of Mr Pravine Gordhan, what was your rank?

MR BOTHMA: I was a Warrant Officer, Chairperson.

MR NEL: And you were stationed at the security branch Durban?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct.

MR NEL: Firstly, do you confirm the correctness of your amnesty application as I have referred you to it in the bundle?

MR BOTHMA: Yes that is correct.

MR NEL: I have asked this question three times previously but it is necessary for the record.  Exhibits A, B and C serves before this Committee which was handed up and deals with the general background to amnesty applications as well as Operation Vula.  You have studied these documents and do you ask that these be incorporated in your evidence insofar as your knowledge goes and do you confirm the correctness thereof?

MR BOTHMA: Yes I do, Chairperson.

MR NEL: And you have heard the evidence of Lieutenant Colonel Hentie Botha as well as the previous applicants.  Do you confirm the correctness of their versions of the events as it had taken place on the day of the assault?

MR BOTHMA: I do so, Chairperson.

MR NEL: If I refer you to Exhibit J will you please read to us from paragraph 1 where the circumstances are explained?

MR BOTHMA: During 1990 I was a member of the security branch stationed at Durban.  I was part of a group investigators and at that stage we were involved with the investigation of the so-called Operation Vula.  During the questioning of one Pravine Gordhan I assisted Lieutenant Colonel Hentie Botha to suffocate Mr Gordhan in order to persuade him to answer questions which were put to him with regard to Operation Vula.

MR NEL: What exactly do you mean that you assisted Mr Botha in suffocating him, what was your part in the assault?

MR BOTHMA: I helped in holding Mr Gordhan down on the ground.

MR NEL: Please continue?

MR BOTHMA: After it became clear that Mr Gordhan was not willing to answer any of Mr Botha's questions, the assault was ceased.  During the assault and at that stage I believed that my actions were aimed at maintaining and protecting the then government.  I was not rewarded and did not receive any benefit for my participation in the assault on Mr Gordhan.  I request that my amnesty application be considered favourable.  Thank you.

MR NEL: Thank you Chairperson, that is the evidence of Mr Bothma.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nel.  Mr Visser, any questions?

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Bothma, before this date of the assault were you involved in any interrogation of Mr Gordhan?

MR BOTHMA: No, I was not involved in any interrogation, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Can you recall on the day of the assault what the subject matter of the questioning was?

MR BOTHMA: The interrogation dealt with specifically the identity of the agent or double agent in the security branch known as The Owl and certain aspects with regard to Operation Vula.

MR VISSER: Were you present from the time Mr Botha started speaking to Mr Gordhan right up to the end after he was suffocated?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct, I was involved.

MR VISSER: Please give us an indication of your memory as to how long the process had taken from start to end?

MR BOTHMA: Approximately between ten and fifteen minutes.

MR VISSER: And you say in your evidence-in-chief that it seemed clear to you, are the words that you used, that Mr Gordhan was not willing to answer, is that correct?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Can you explain that, why was it so clear to you?  How did you draw this inference?

MR BOTHMA: Mr Gordhan, since the start of his detention right from the start, he was not cooperative.

MR VISSER: How do you know that?

MR BOTHMA: We had to struggle to obtain his name and surname from him.

MR VISSER: So did you indeed take part in certain questionings of Mr Gordhan before the assault?

MR BOTHMA: Right from the start of the questioning right up to the end I was present.

MR VISSER: And he did not cooperate, is that what you say?

MR BOTHMA: No, not totally.

MR VISSER: And on the day of the assault was that once again the case?

MR BOTHMA: Mr Gordhan denied that he knew the identity of the mole or the informant within the security branch or that he had knowledge of the identity.

MR VISSER: Very well, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Gordhan, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

MR GORDHAN: Yes Chairperson.
	Were you involved in any of the arrests of Vula detainees?

MR BOTHMA: No Chairperson, I wasn't involved.

MR GORDHAN: Did you have a direct reporting line to Durban yourself?

MR BOTHMA: No Chairperson, Mr Duhr did the report back.

MR GORDHAN: The issue of cooperation seems to plague our discussions here.  Did you actually expect an ANC detainee to cooperate with the special branch official?

MR BOTHMA: Not really.

MR GORDHAN: From the moment that you and Mr Duhr stood up in that office, put the lights off, asked me to face the window, the hood goes on to my head, to the moment when the wrappings are finally taken off my body and the hood is removed, you will grant that trying to recall that nine years later it could well have been between twenty and thirty minutes as well, that whole duration?

MR BOTHMA: I doubt if it took that long, it might have felt that long for you, Sir.

MR GORDHAN: It could have been 25 minutes, 20 minutes?

MR BOTHMA: Possibly 20 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed Mr Gordhan, if I could just intervene on this aspect.  Mr Gordhan said that he was placed, he was in this room or cell whatever it was and made to look out the window and the hood was placed over his head.  Where did that hood come from?

MR BOTHMA: I don't know, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did somebody have to go out the room to fetch it?

MR BOTHMA: That must have happened, it was not in the office where the interrogation took place.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember anybody going out or being asked to go out?

MR BOTHMA: No Chairperson, I cannot recall that anybody specifically went to fetch it.

CHAIRPERSON: And also it seemed from the evidence that Mr Gordhan was wrapped up in some sort of blanket or something, where did that come from?

MR BOTHMA: Chairperson, it could have come from the cells I suspect, I do speak under correction.

CHAIRPERSON: Did this interrogation take place in the cell or was it in a special interrogation room or other office?

MR BOTHMA: The questioning took place in an office of the security branch.

CHAIRPERSON: And then we've heard evidence also that some sort of bag, I think it's been referred to as a bag or a towel or some plastic was placed on Mr Gordhan's face actually suffocating him.  Can you say what was actually placed on his face when he was being smothered?

MR BOTHMA: Chairperson, if I recall correctly it was a piece of plastic.

CHAIRPERSON: Like a plastic bag from a supermarket or what sort of plastic?

MR BOTHMA: A plastic rubber.

CHAIRPERSON: A thicker type of plastic, like a tube in a tyre?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where that came from?

MR BOTHMA: No Chairperson, I don't know, it was also not in the office, it was brought there.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you know how long you've had to wait more or less for this stuff to be obtained?  This hood and the plastic blanket?