Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-12

MR MALAN: Yes I've seen that, but I just want to know if Mr Botha has any information pertaining to that because obviously it's a possibility.  It's a bit strange that his name was not made known whilst Mdwandwe's name was made known.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Prosecutors are strange people, if I can help the Committee, the whole question around the refusal of giving evidence, I have the pieces here, you can look at it.  It was an investigation held by Terion and it's contained in the official documents.  The man was represented etc. so it is available if someone wants to have a look at it, I've brought it with me.

MR MALAN: And do they make reference to Khatle's refusal to testify?

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Yes, it's an application which was made, he was defended by Mr Bristow, later Judge Bristow and he was sentenced to four years after a complete investigation and the pieces in the official document is available.

MR MALAN: Khate was sentenced?

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Yes.

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.

MR VISSER: If I may just ask through the Chairperson, did he get this sentence because he refused to testify?

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: That is indeed the case, yes.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, Mr van Schalkwyk asked to interrupt the evidence because he just wants to request something of you?

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: It slipped me, Chairperson, after the conclusion of the Bhila issue, to officially ask you if Mr McCarter may be excused, I asked him to stay present until you tell him that he may leave?  Of course he is always available to give evidence if need be.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, also my learned friend Mr van Schalkwyk mentioned to me that Mr Prior has approached him again in regard to the possible location of the place where Mr Bhila was killed and his body was thrown over the cliff.  We have made our services available, Mr Wasserman is here, if my learned friend or the panel feels that there's any merit in making another attempt we can get in our vehicles and we can go and criss-cross the country and see whether we can see this place.  Mr Wasserman is more than happy to cooperate, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I gather from what Mr Prior told us about this is that he had information from Captain Holmes that they had gone down to Oribi Gorge near Port Shepstone to look for the place, nowhere near the Umbumbulu area, but that's when they went after they got information, they went down in a helicopter down there and scoured the area so it seemed that there might be a completely different place that should be looked at now.  It may be that this gentleman knows what areas the other chap was familiar with, who led them there.  He may be able to say well I know he was very much at home with this area because he did come from that area, didn't he?

MR VISSER: The Umbumbulu area, yes.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr Chairman, it was on that basis, on that level that I approached Mr Visser to see whether our respective clients could not get together again and sort of revisit the whole thing and see whether something is fresher now than it used to be when they went out.  It was on that basis that I approached.

MR MALAN: Sorry Mr van Schalkwyk, your client being?

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr McCarter.

MR VISSER: Well Mr Chairman, I'm not certain whether I'm hearing you correctly, if you intended saying that you believed that there is merit and I suppose there is always merit in making another attempt, then perhaps we should put it together, Mr Chairman.  Perhaps one should discuss it among ourselves during the lunch adjournment.  The only question then remaining would be over the weekend it's hardly likely that we can set it up, so it might be a proposition and that's why I'm mentioning it now, to go out tomorrow and see whether we can go and find the place?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know how much any of the applicants would assist in that, what I thought is that if Mhieza could refer to an area that may be the area in question, that the local police could then be spoken to and told we are now looking for somewhere where there's a flat rock above a cliff and they may, as apparently happened when they went to Oribi the last time, say well that must be - I know where it is, we can go there, without troubling all of us to go or something.  If they say well look, that doesn't help us at all, that's an end to it.

MR VISSER: Well the problem that I foresee right at the outset is Mhieza says he wasn't present.

CHAIRPERSON: No, he may be able to say "but I know Mbele often spoke about these hills."

MR VISSER: On that basis I will of course approach him, yes certainly.

CHAIRPERSON: Not suggesting any personal knowledge at all but at least to point us in the right possible area.

MR VISSER: We'll approach him on that basis, yes.
	Mr Botha, if we can then continue with your evidence.  We got to the point and I was reminded in the short adjournment that we did not conclude the point.  After Zandile was acquitted and after she made the Section 29 statement, you told the Committee that she then started and you called it the crumbs, she gathered the crumbs in order to continue with the activities of Operation Butterfly, can you remember that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And you also continued saying that all the members of the Operation Butterfly were not arrested so there were people who were available, so what I would like to know from you is, how did you know that?  How did you know that she was busy continuing with these activities of Operation Butterfly?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, by means of information which we obtained.

MR VISSER: Did any actions follow, actions against the members of units to which you've just referred, the so-called crumbs then, using your own words?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, we did act against them.

MR VISSER: And what was the consequence of that with regard to Zandile?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The consequence was that during 1987 she left the country.

MR VISSER: And according to information which you had, are you capable of saying what her movements entailed after that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, by means of information we obtained from other arrested terrorists, we determined that she received six months military training in a camp in Angola after which she returned to Swaziland and she was taken up into the machinery of the Natal structures.

MR VISSER: And now we are talking about 1987?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Who was then the MK commander in Swaziland according to your knowledge or memory?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: As far as I know, Zulu was the commander of that area.

MR VISSER: And in terms of the summary which we find in

EXHIBIT H: there's reference made to in paragraph 1 on page 4 to the following - yes, Mr Chairman, while I'm here there's a matter which unfortunately I must raise.  It has been brought to my notice that the interpreter has been interpreting before the luncheon adjournment, apparently finds difficulty in interpreting ANC because he keeps on interpreting it as the organisation and I'd like to rectify the record particularly as far as the portion of the judgement of Justice Terion was concerned which I read to you, that had been apparently and I say apparently because I didn't listen to it, been translated as the organisation instead of the ANC.  We hope that that won't happen again.
	This paragraph 1 at page 4 of Exhibit H reads:
"Phila Ndwandwe was acting commander in Swaziland from about July/August until her abduction as a result of the arrest of Tami Zulu and Fear by the ANC."
Do you have any knowledge about what happened to Tami Zulu?  According to information or whatever knowledge you had in your possession, can you give comment to this statement?