Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-03

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning ladies and gentlemen.  This is the continuation of the Katlehong Massacre Hearing. Mr Mapoma, I understand that you have a matter to raise this morning.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.  Chairperson, I've got two matters to raise, one about applicant Michael Armoed.  The Boksburg police have undertaken that they are going to go and fetch him from Sun City prison.  They are on their way and we are expecting them to bring him to the hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Are we to understand now that they will be responsible for bringing the applicant to and from the proceedings?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.  They have undertaken to do that but they said we have to sign a requisition warrant for him to be taken from Sun City to be kept in Boksburg until the hearing ends, from today onwards.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Well, I suppose you'll be able to attend to that?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: If there is anything that we can do to expedite the process, let us know.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So that disposes of that matter, what is the other matter?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The other matter Chairperson, is about another applicant, applicant number 7, Julian ...[indistinct].  Mr Madasa has advised me yesterday that he is not acting for him, he's acting for the 14 applicants except for him.  Now, the Investigative Officer for the TRC advised that Julian Ntlebe's(?) application has nothing to do with the Katlehong Massacre, he was not part of it and he does not apply for amnesty in respect of the Katlehong Massacre.

CHAIRPERSON: Then why was it included in this hearing?

MR MAPOMA: The reason for it to be included here is that, in his application he did not specify exactly what incident he is applying for amnesty for except that he said he's applying for amnesty for killing in December 1993 in Katlehong so it was assumed that he was part of the SDU's.  He also says he was an SDU member.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so do the other applicants and they make reference to 1993.   Mr Madasa, do you confirm that you don't appear for applicant number 7, that is Julian Essau Ntlebe?

MR MADASA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But I thought yesterday you placed yourself on record as appearing for all the applicants?

MR MADASA: I think I said 14 applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, did you notify Mr Mapoma of that fact?

MR MADASA: As he says now, he has been aware that's he's not part of the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Then why was this matter not brought to the attention of the Commission yesterday?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, this matter was going to be dealt with - we  thought his application is going to be dealt with separately to the Katlehong Massacre and in fact I've discussed the matter with Advocate Mpshe.  	He has agreed that this matter is supposed to be struck off the role for the Katlehong Massacre and his application be dealt with separately.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  Mr Julian Essau Ntlebe?

MR MAPOMA: I'm told he is not here Chairperson, he has not pitched up for the hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he here yesterday?

MR MAPOMA: He was not here even yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: Really?  Well Mr Mapoma, there's something fundamentally wrong with the process, we cannot continue like this.  Very well, the application in respect applicant number 7, Julian Essau Ntlebe is accordingly struck off from the role.
	Now whilst we are on this matter, it has occurred to me, going through the applications by the other applicants, that they also refer to 1993 in the same vague fashion as Ntlebe does in his application.  
	I think some of them refer to an incident in which a Mr Mavuso was killed.  Now, is that matter, the killing of Mavuso related to the incident that we are dealing with today?  Mr Madasa, what are your instructions in regard to the remaining applicants now?  	Mr Madasa, are these applicants applying for amnesty in respect of the Katlehong Massacre, all of them?

MR MADASA: Yes, Mr Chair.  If you refer to the list of the deceased, page 2 of the bundle, the applicants applications relate to the deceased listed there, except number 1.  So I confirm that the rest, except for number 1, the applicants claimed some responsibility, directly or indirectly.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  For the death of the deceased persons mentioned on page 2.

MR MADASA: Yes, except for the first deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Except Theodora Bulelwa Ziwane?

MR MADASA: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  ...[no sound] There is a reference to Mavuso.  If you go to page, I think if you go to page 14 of the papers, paragraph 9.C.II, - I, I think it, where Michael Langa Nkomo gives the name of the victim as Mavuso and others.  Who were the another and others I don't know.  Who is this Mavuso?  Go to page 14 of the bundle of the document.

MR MADASA: Yes, I see Mr Chair.  I assume that Mavuso is Mavuso who is number 9 on the list but I can quickly confirm with one of the applicants now.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, that is Peter Mavuso Modishwa?

MR MADASA: Yes.  Mr Chairman, may I confirm this first with one of the applicants?

CHAIRPERSON: And then another one refers to Bolozo(?).

MR MADASA: Yes, Mr Chair, the applicants confirm that this Mavuso some of them refer to is the same person who is number 9 on the list of deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: And what about Bolozo?  Okay Bolozo is mentioned by ...[intervention]

MR MADASA: By Armoed Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps when he - did you take instructions on their application forms?  What are your instructions in this regard?

MR MADASA: I confess Mr Chair, I didn't dealt with Armoed, the question of Bolozo.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps, if you could find some time at some point and just go through the applications including the victims referred to by the applicants and just make sure that they relate or they refer to the same persons who are described as being the deceased in the Katlehong Massacre so that there is no confusion about that.  ...[no sound]
	Is there anything else Mr Mapoma, that you want to place on record?

MR MAPOMA: No, Chairperson, that is all.  I also Chairperson, for the sake of the record, would like to mention that unfortunately these disparities have been caused by not having had an opportunity to hold a pre-hearing conference with my learned fried.  That is a regret Mr Chairperson, I must apologise for that one.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, if we adjourn at four today, why can't you hold a conference of some sort and see what the issues are and see the extent to which you could define the issues?  Why can't you do that this afternoon at four and first thing tomorrow morning if necessary?

MR MAPOMA: We agree to do that Chairperson, at 4 o'clock with my learned friend.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that would be very helpful indeed.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: If you go to 105, 106 I think it is, yes, 105/106, applicant number 15 Malcolmess Ngaam refers to Bulungwe or Bulangwe.  Could you also take instructions on who that person is?  I think his name appears at page 105/106 and he is referred to by applicant number 15.

MR MADASA: Yes, that person is Blanko who was referred by the applicant who is still giving evidence.  It's Blanko who was their member, whose shack was burnt.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, very well.  So Blanko and Bulungwe is on and the same person, very well.
	Having taken care of the housekeeping problems, where is Mr Motlokwa?  Mr Motlokwa?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] the evidence in chief, is that right?

MR MADASA: Yes, Mr Chair, but with your permission may I ask just one question?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MR MADASA: (con)
	Mr Motlokwa, as a result of these killings, did you personally benefit anything therefrom?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I never benefitted anything Sir.

MR MADASA: Thank you, that's all Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?