Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

ADV MEMANI: Isn't is so Mr Coetzee, that you would have been one of the policemen who had valuable information that would assist in the investigation of any information which may be divulged by these people?

MR COETZEE: Mr Chair no, the information mainly came from the terror investigation unit, that's what their work involved.

ADV MEMANI: What I wish to propose to you is that you had been a member of the unit that investigated terrorism, you would therefore have been knowledgable about the workings of the ANC and Ukhonto weSizwe and that you would have been a handy person when there was a group of people to be investigated who were about to go and join Umkhonto weSizwe.

MR COETZEE: Yes Chair, I had information but the members who were to do the interrogation I believe, would have shared it with the people.

ADV MEMANI: Now, the next thing that I want to ask you about briefly relates to the question relating to the feeling of ...[indistinct] and confessions are made.  Have you, during the course of your investigations, arrested people who have made confessions?

MR COETZEE: No Mr Chair, I can't remember a single instance.

ADV MEMANI: Have you perhaps been involved in a confession or rather, in a case where one of the people involved made confessions?  Let me remind you, do you remind ...[intervention]

MR COETZEE: Mr Chair, as I've already stated, members of other sub-sections were called into the office and they would take this person, take him to the Magistrate's Court and bring him back again and I wouldn't have insight into that.

ADV MEMANI: Have you had a suspect who was being investigated by you, making a confession?

MR COETZEE: Not yet, Chair.  Are you talking about a written confession?

ADV MEMANI: That is correct.

MR COETZEE: No, Chair, not yet.

ADV MEMANI: Do you remember the occasion when you were part of a group that interrogated an MK soldier known as Nkomo?

MR COETZEE: Was it in Bloemfontein Mr Chair?

ADV MEMANI: That is correct.

MR COETZEE: I can't remember the case.

MR VISSER: Can the name be spelt Mr Chairman?

ADV MEMANI: Nkomo is N-k-o-m-o.
	Now, I'm instructed that that person appeared in the Supreme Court and was acquitted and that his legal representatives were Ishmail Ahob and had instructed George Bizos, don't you remember that case?

MR COETZEE: Mr Chair, I can't remember such a person's name and I can't remember the particular case.

ADV MEMANI: I'm instructed that that person was acquitted because the court found that his confession was not admissible because you and others investigating the case, had assaulted him before he made the confession.

MR COETZEE: I don't remember such a case at all Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: When was this?

ADV MEMANI: My instructions are that it was in 1986
M'Lord.
	My instructions further are that on an occasion you - while Jannie Mohape was detained, he was assaulted by yourself and others.

MR COETZEE: I deny that Mr Chair.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I be allowed to enquire, is there now going to be evidence about these statements that are put to the witness?  What is the status of these questions Mr Chairman?  We don't know of any trial where my learned colleague Mr Bizos appeared in and where a confession was thrown out because of a finding by the court that it was improperly obtained.
	The statement is made without production of any proof.  There is no evidence before you Mr Chairman, ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: And it has been denied.  The witness says he doesn't remember any such incident, that's it.  I Mr Memani can produce the Judgement ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Then it's a different matter.

CHAIRPERSON: It's a different matter.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: Now, I want us to deal with George Musi.  Information must have been given by the people who were arrested attempting to skip the border, that they were staying with George Musi.

MR COETZEE: I don't have any knowledge of this.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that pure speculation Mr Memani?  You were saying: "Information must have been given by the people who were going to skip, that they were staying with him".  Have you got any information that they were?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I recall that some of the witnesses said - at least one, said that she was asked about where they had been camping prior to them attempting to skip the border.

MR VISSER: If I may, I'm sorry, I thought he was - my learned friend's finished.  If I may Mr Chairman, Mr Oliphant gave that evidence, but you will also recall that each and every one of those witnesses told you that they told their investigators, their interrogators nothing.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, that is not correct.  What they said is, that when they wouldn't answer the questions they would be beaten up.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on with your questioning.  You say: "One person said" - is it Oliphant who said he stayed with Musi?

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.
	Now, ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, I don't want to mislead you. He said that all stayed.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, sorry.

MR VISSER: With Musi before they left.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.
	Very well, carry on.

ADV MEMANI: At that stage, then the police must have known that he was co-operating with MK?

MR COETZEE: Mr Chair, I can't remember the name Musi at all and I can't remember if there was a file on such a person.  And there was also no steps taken against that Musi.

ADV MEMANI: And you being amongst the people who specialised with MK, would have had a motive to do something about Mr Musi.

MR COETZEE: Mr Chair, I've never before heard the name Musi.

ADV MEMANI: Didn't you hear about Mr Musi, even after Mr Musi's house was burnt?

MR COETZEE: No, Mr Chair.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Coetzee, you also - we were told that after Motsamai testified about Bobby Sebotsa that the reason for the burning of the house of Bobby Sebotsa would have been that he had killed a comrade.  Do you know anything about that?

MR COETZEE: I don't have any knowledge about this.

ADV MEMANI: Did you know Bobby Sebotsa?

MR COETZEE: Mr Chairman, the name sounds familiar but I don't know the person.

ADV MEMANI: You see, as the person who was investigating terrorism and sabotage, you ought to know about Bobby Sebotsa because he's one of those people who had some military training.

MR COETZEE: That is correct Mr Chairman, that's why I said I know the name but not the person.

ADV MEMANI: And you would also therefore have a motive to do something about Bobby Sebotsa.

MR COETZEE: I had no motive except to act according to the law.

CHAIRPERSON: You put it that Bobby Sebotsa killed a comrade.

ADV MEMANI: No, Mr Chairman, I ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: But that's what you put.  I understood you to say:  "The reason for burning the house of Bobby Sebotsa was because he killed a comrade"

ADV MEMANI: I said that that is what was put to Motsamai when he was testifying about Bobby Sebotsa. - or rather Bobby's brother.
	Now let me clarify this, when Mr Motsamai testified about the bombing of the house of the brother of Bobby Sebotsa, it was put to him that the probable reason was that he had killed a comrade and you said you don't know anything about that.

MR COETZEE: Mr Chairman, can that question be repeated?

ADV MEMANI: I'm saying to you, that when Motsamai testified about the bombing of the house of the brother of Bobby Sebotsa, it was put to him that the probable reason for the bombing was that he had killed a comrade and your answer was that you know nothing about the incident or what was put to Motsamai.

MR COETZEE: I don't have any knowledge about that.

ADV MEMANI: So it is not you who gave the instruction to the lawyers?

MR COETZEE: The instruction to the attorneys to do what?

ADV MEMANI: It is not you who told the attorneys that the probable reason for the bombing of the house of Bobby Sebotsa's brother, is that he had killed a comrade.