Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-11

MR NGUBANE: Are you - my question is, when you were in South Africa could you - was there a stage when you could kill in pursuit of a political motive knowing that in terms of the laws of the country it was illegal to kill a person?

MR NGUBANE: I'm sorry, I still don't understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if you heard it, he said when it was illegal to kill a person, not when it was legal.  The question was, in South Africa would you, in furthering a political belief, kill a person when you knew it was illegal to do so?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes, that would happen, yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You would?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes that would happen, yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: In furthering a political belief?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: At what stage did you reach a point when you could kill in circumstances when it was illegal to do so in pursuance of a political belief?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: It was the stage when the war status in Natal had reached so high that in our belief there was no other way but to kill the combatant concerned.

MR NGUBANE: Can you estimate in terms of years, round about which year?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I would say round about the year of the matter in question.

MR NGUBANE: And before this Bhila killing, did you kill a person in circumstances which were illegal but in pursuit of a political motive?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I believe there's an application here somewhere, I'm not sure if it was not just before this or just after but there is an amnesty application.

MR NGUBANE: Only one?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: There is one application yes.

MR NGUBANE: Are you in a position to identify that application, it related to whom?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: The one that I'm referring to is a shoot out in Durban at the N2 bridgeway but I'm not sure of the date right now but it should be available to the Committee.

MR NGUBANE: Well if you say a shoot out, were those people shooting you and you were shooting back at them?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: We got in the shots first.

MR NGUBANE: Now ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: By that do you mean you shot them?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: We shot first yes, but there was a hand grenade there but ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: They didn't shoot at you?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: We were too quick Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: So your evidence is that before this Bhila killing, that was the only incident that you were involved in which occurred in circumstances that were illegal?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No there's many here, there's other applications here but I don't know the date of this one that I'm referring to, if this was before Bhila or if it was shortly after Bhila.

CHAIRPERSON: Is a copy of the complete application available?

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr Chairman I understand that it's with the couriers and should be here this morning.

MR VISSER: In order to be of some assistance Mr Chairman, I believe the witness is referring to what you have in

EXHIBIT A: at page 24.  It's the so-called Quarry Road incident and it's dated the 9th August 1986.  I believe that chronologically that took place prior to the Bhila incident and that's the only one that I've been able to find, just glancing through the papers right now.

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Then that would be the one I'm referring to Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: The other incidents follow the Bhila incident, I believe the Bhila incident, as I have it Mr Chairman, is the second one.  I incorrectly stated yesterday there were fifteen incidents for which this witness applies but there are eight but they all follow the Quarry Road incident at page 24.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.  Now sir, the matters, all the matters in respect of which you have applied for amnesty are the matters in which you had been threatened with prosecution?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No.

MR NGUBANE: You volunteered some other matters?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes that is correct Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: In this Bhila matter had you been threatened with prosecution?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: In the Bhila matter I was cautioned by Holmes but no threats were made, it was a straight forward warning statement.

MR NGUBANE: And when you applied for amnesty in other matters had you been cautioned by Holmes?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Not in the other matters.

MR NGUBANE: Did you make your amnesty applications in other matters before you could make an application in the Bhila matter?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No, altogether.

MR NGUBANE: Now in terms of seniority, Taylor was your senior, is that correct?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: And did you at any stage plan with Mr Taylor the killing of Mr Bhila?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No I did not Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: At what stage did you know for the first time that Bhila had to be killed?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: It was when we stopped, when I stopped behind Mr Taylor not far from the Railway Police shooting range.

MR NGUBANE: Had Mr Taylor at any stage indicated to you that he was not happy about the acquittal of Mr Bhila?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, none of us were happy with the acquittal of Mr Bhila, it was mentioned by us but that's where it stopped.

MR NGUBANE: And before the arrest now of Mr Bhila, could you kill for a political matter?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: If I knew exactly who the man was, how dangerous he was considered to be, how well military trained he was, what his activities were, that is likely that that could have ...[indistinct] yes, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: Did you participate in the investigation of the matter against Mr Bhila?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I did.

MR NGUBANE: And did you participate in his arrest?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I can't recall, I participated in many, many arrests over that period of time.

MR NGUBANE: If you participated in his investigations the probabilities are that you must have participated in his arrest, is that right?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That's not necessarily correct Mr Chairman, there was thirty or so personalities and I didn't arrest anywhere near half, so I am not certain about that.

MR NGUBANE: And before he could be arrested you knew who he was and where he resided, is that correct?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct, yes.

MR NGUBANE: And you knew that he was a dangerous man, is that right?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I knew he was a well trained Umkhonto weSizwe cadre, yes.

MR NGUBANE: Now why didn't you kill him before he could be arrested?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Maybe I wasn't sent to arrest him.

MR NGUBANE: But you knew where ...[intervention]

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: It's not policy to kill somebody before you arrest them.

MR NGUBANE: You knew where he stayed, is that correct?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I and the other investigators possibly knew where he stayed.

MR NGUBANE: No, it's not possibly, you knew where he stayed, that's your evidence?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes I knew where he stayed.

MR NGUBANE: And you knew who he was?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Correct.

MR NGUBANE: Right and now can you advance a better reason why you didn't kill before he could be arrested?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: He was arrested and taken before the court.

MR NGUBANE: I'm asking you that because the suspicion I have is that you killed Bhila just because you were frustrated by the fact that he had been acquitted?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That's an incorrect impression to have, Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: And if you could kill for a political motive I put it to you that you had ample chance to kill him before he could be arrested?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I think I have already answered that question, have I not Mr Chairman?

MR NGUBANE: Now coming to Mhieza, did you work closely with him?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I did Mr Chairman.

MR NGUBANE: How many black members were working with you in your unit, closely as Mhieza did?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I would say four to five, Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, I didn't get you, is to 4 to 5 or 45?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No, 4 to 5.

MR NGUBANE: As far you are aware where did Mr Mhieza reside?