Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-28

PROF DE KOKER: You were together?  Did you work closely together in drawing up the applications?

LAURENS MBATHA: He actually had to draw his, I was actually drawing mine.  Like I've said, I submitted my statement, he had to submit his statement.

PROF DE KOKER: Did you compare notes?

LAURENS MBATHA: No.

PROF DE KOKER: But the fact that you worked closely together, that is correct - yes or no?

LAURENS MBATHA: No.

PROF DE KOKER: Excuse me, then I must have misunderstood you.  Can you perhaps just repeat your answer to the last question?

LAURENS MBATHA: We did not compare our notes.

PROF DE KOKER: If I may draw the attention of the Committee to page 53 - again one of those internal statements by the Investigative Unit, that is in bundle 2, page 53 in which the investigators said - that is just signed K K, it could refer to Kristen ...[indistinct] second paragraph
"They were also informed they did not have to worry about Laurens' attitude towards Walter, while we during our latest visit in August found that they seemed to friends and nothing fatal was going to happen to Walter.  On the contrary, they both seemed to collaborate in solving the case and apply for amnesty"
In what way did you collaborate with Mr Smiles?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you collaborate with Mr Smiles?

LAURENS MBATHA: Collaboration as far as the truth should be told.

PROF DE KOKER: And how did you ensure that the truth was to be told this time?

LAURENS MBATHA: That he must tell the truth of what happened there.

PROF DE KOKER: Did you co-operate with Mr Nkotla and Mr Mbatwa in their applications?

CHAIRPERSON: Why are you asking him that question Professor de Koker?

PROF DE KOKER: I would like to lead on to the relationship between Mr Mbatha and Mr Nkotla.

CHAIRPERSON: We are today not dealing with Mr Nkotla's application and Mr Mbatwa, they may very well be heard by a different Committee differently constituted.

PROF DE KOKER: Quite correct Mr Chairman, but what I am trying to establish - Major Mbatha clearly played a central role in bringing information from Mr Smiles under the attention of authorities in 1993 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Even so, restrict yourself to the applications which are before us.

PROF DE KOKER: If then we may deal specifically with Mr Nkotla, but only in respect of the evidence given by you yesterday.  Did you train Mr Nkotla in handling of hand grenades?

LAURENS MBATHA: No.

PROF DE KOKER: You also stated that to the best of your recollection Mr Nkotla wasn't even in Kimberley on that fateful day.

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes, I do.

PROF DE KOKER: How did you know that?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you should ask this witness that question unless you can explain to us why you think you should go into those aspects of Mr Nkotla's application.

PROF DE KOKER: The statement that was made by Major Mbatha seems to support the approach by Mr Nkotla during the case but which was then not supported by his own witnesses, which was refuted by two State witnesses and even refuted it seems by Mr Mbatwa himself on page 24 of Volume 2 of the documents in front of you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But Professor de Koker, is that issue central to the application before us?

CHAIRPERSON: In particular to your client's ...[inaudible]

PROF DE KOKER: I believe so because Mr Nkotla accepted under oath and proven in court, he accepted responsibility for throwing the hand grenade.  If he then threw the hand grenade, it is clearly that the applicants before us are not disclosing the full truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is the full truth that you are talking about?

PROF DE KOKER: That is the truth that we're trying to ascertain regarding this incident and who was responsible for it.  A full truth would also not be revealed if someone who was not involved in the incident is later ...[indistinct] or later volunteers to accept responsibility for the incident.  In fact, that would make a mockery of the whole system and especially of amnesty applications of the Committee.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You obviously are aware that Mr Nkotla and Mr Mbatwa have also applied to this Committee for amnesty and we still have to adjudicate on their applications.  We just don't want to bring issues which are going to cloud our decision in respect of this application.

PROF DE KOKER: Correct, but I just wish to draw your attention to the fact that those applications were apparently withdrawn but if the Committee is prepared to strike off Major Mbatha's comment yesterday that to the best of his recollection Mr Nkotla was not even in Kimberley that day, then I'm also prepared to leave this matter.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I don't know if I recollect his evidence obviously verbatim but I think he made mention to the fact that he believes that Mr Nkotla was not even there.  As I say I may not be quoting him verbatim.

ADV DE JAGER: Perhaps we could solve it easier, could you tell us on what grounds did you believe that Mr Nkotla wasn't in Kimberley on that day?

LAURENS MBATHA: At that stage an activist like Nkotla - firstly he was going to be visible, I would have seen Nkotla if he was there.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mbatha, but I can't think for a moment that you could say: "I would have seen him" because today, do you know who is in Kimberley today or whether they're here or not - there are thousands of people in Kimberley.

LAURENS MBATHA: As an organiser - like I did explain it yesterday, how we were operating in the Province, Nkotla I remember even at that stage it was the time when he was still applying for his membership in MK and the fact that he was leaving Kimberley - I cannot exactly say which day exactly between those days.   I knew that he came, informed me he was going around the Sishen area as an organiser - we had very close contact by then.

ADV DE JAGER: That's an answer because he told you, that's the reason why you didn't believe him because he told you he's going out of Kimberley.

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes, Sir.

PROF DE KOKER: Thank you very much.  I'm dealing with a few ...[indistinct] issues which arise from the evidence yesterday, before I will come to the final matters.
	What were the type of hand grenades Major Mbatha, that you had in your possession?

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, F1 grenades.

PROF DE KOKER: Were all of them F1 grenades?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes, Sir.

PROF DE KOKER: What is the colour of F1 grenades?

CHAIRPERSON: If these are your most important questions Mr de Koker, I have reason to believe that you have almost finished your cross-examination.

PROF DE KOKER: If you'll allow me, I will demonstrate the importance of the answer, if you will just allow me this indulgence.

CHAIRPERSON: It's always better to demonstrate the importance of the question first.

PROF DE KOKER: Could we perhaps just have this answer on the colour of F1 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, let's see - go ahead.
	You are being asked, what was the colour of the hand grenade?

LAURENS MBATHA: No, I'm not really good actually at colours, the colour it is not greenish, it is not fawn but the case of - those grenades were stored for a long time where they came from - some rusty elements outside also, were also visible.

PROF DE KOKER: The colour then seems to tend to be brown, rusty and fawn coloured, is that correct?

LAURENS MBATHA: No, not brown exactly.  As I've said, I'm trying to come up between two - fawnish, greenish.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still taking instructions on the colour of the hand grenade?

PROF DE KOKER: That is correct Mr Chairman, because on page 4 of bundle 2, the hand grenade is described as brown and on page 51 Mr Smiles again described it as being brown.

CHAIRPERSON: In that case, then I can solve your problem by saying that the colour of the hand grenade was as anybody saw it to be like and it might even be produced here before us and we may still not agree as to what that colour is.

PROF DE KOKER: Mr Chairman, I ...[intervention]