Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-26

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, the certainty was not there whether there would be an infiltration that evening.  We waited for confirmation.  I did pick a group of my members and the rest were sent back to Pretoria after the social there, but the group that I picked out remained behind.

MR HATTINGH: Who was that, Mr de Kock?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, it was myself, Mr Ras, Mr Paul van Dyk, Mr Flores, Mr Nortje, and I have just heard that Mr Vermeulen was also there.  I could not place him because I could not recall him.  And Mr Tait as well.

MR HATTINGH: And when did you go to Piet Retief?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, after the social.  About 1 or 2 o'clock, my members and I went to the Security Branch offices at Piet Retief and according to my recollection, Mr Pienaar was there, he did the monitoring and liaised with his sources.  We waited to see if this infiltration would take place.
	At a later stage some members arrived there from the Security Branches at Middelburg, Witbank and Ermelo, I think.  They had a vehicle, which was a minibus because it was expected that a larger group would infiltrate, approximately 8 to 10 persons.  That is the information that I had.

MR HATTINGH: And who would drive the minibus?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, at that stage it was arranged with Detective W/O from the Piet Retief Detective Branch, who would drive the vehicle and the source would give his false name or his pseudo name, which he would use at the border to identify himself and to pick up these terrorists and they would similarly, as it the previous instance, be led into an ambush and then he would stop there.

MR HATTINGH: The driver, was that a Mr Manzini?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And was he shown beforehand where he should stop?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.  The same type of signal and warning signs were given to him to give to us if he approaches the area.

MR HATTINGH: So did you have the driver drive in the direction of the border?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, I did not send a vehicle, but I did compile a group.  I did consult with Mr Deetlefs and Mr Pienaar, we sat and consulted.  The feeling was - and I accept it was the feeling that I had, that after the second shooting incident which we expected would be successful, just as the first, it would be expected of any commander whether he is in position or not, that there is a break in his security network and that he should not use that network again and infiltrate these persons in another manner and would lose control over the operation.
	I sent a group across the border so that after these terrorists were delivered and sent across the border and had left already, then the second group, the commander and whoever else was still there would be shot dead or caught.  I want to mention that catching them was not the idea.

MR HATTINGH: Who did you send to eliminate the commander?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I sent Captain van Dyk, or Mr van Dyk, Mr Ras, Mr Tait and I don't who of Piet Retief's Security Branch went along.  I'm under correction, they'll have to assist me here, but I did send a group of four or five persons across the border.

MR HATTINGH: And the rest of your group took up positions at the prearranged place?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And the vehicle arrived there?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, the vehicle arrived,  Manzini did flicker his lights, but a crisis came about because the vehicle drove past the ambush area, it did not stop there and drove past and stopped approximately 80 metres from us and Manzini jumped out of the vehicle and ran round the vehicle.

MR HATTINGH: Was that once again the sign that the persons would be armed?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, that would be the sign.  I had thought about the previous week's situation and coupled with the fact that the vehicle was moving out of the ambush area, I ran in the direction of where the kombi had stopped and when I reached the vehicle the left front door opened and a man climbed out with an AKM.  He and I were practically a metre, maximum two metres from each other when I started firing at him.  His weapon was almost perpendicular to my left arm and at the third or fourth shot he only showed signs of falling.

MR HATTINGH: What were you armed with this time?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I was once again armed with a 9mm hand carbine, an uzzi, and with this shooting and from the periphery of my right eye I could see the barrel of an AK47, which is a very recognisable barrel and firing system at the front.  Fortunately at that stage some of my Vlakplaas members took up position in a diagonal line behind me and started firing on the people in the minibus.

MR HATTINGH: And eventually all the occupants of the vehicle were shot dead?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, when the members fired on the person in the minibus, members of the Security Branch Piet Retief and the other Security Branches, moved up in a line from behind and the group of people in the minibus were caught in a destructing crossfire.

MR HATTINGH: Did you investigate after the shooting had stopped?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, I did give the cease-fire signal, Chairperson, and we had found four black men who were all armed with AK47s.  I did not search the bodies to find out what other arms they had with them.

MR HATTINGH: Did you go through their baggage?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, I did not check any baggage.

MR HATTINGH: So the only weapons that you saw that evening were these four AKs?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Did you get an officer to compile a shooting report about the incident?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I cannot recall whether an officer did visit the scene, or whether the officer visited the scene while I was there.  I don't think he did.  He may have visited the scene after I had left.  I have a vague recollection that we may have gone to sleep, or in fact departed back to Pretoria that morning and it would have been early that morning.

MR HATTINGH: And was there a post-mortem inquest?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: In this case it was an informal post-mortem inquest, whereas the first one had been a formal post-mortem inquest.

MR HATTINGH: Formal in the sense that oral evidence was presented?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that's correct.

MR HATTINGH: And when you refer to informal, then that indicates an inquest which took place merely by the submission of affidavits?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Was any affidavit obtained from you during the second inquest?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No.  I wanted to submit an affidavit, but another statement had already been submitted by Mr Deetlefs and my affidavit was not incorporated into the file.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you proceed, Mr Hattingh.
	You said that you sent that one group into Swaziland, Ras and Tait and others, did you get any report-back from them?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.  After the shooting, when we fired at the minibus, Mr Ras and his group returned with Mr van Dyk and the others and they reported that they had indeed ambushed a vehicle there.  With the return of two black men they fired at them.  The one was already in the vehicle, if my information is correct, he was shot dead.  The other person escaped, and this later appeared to be Mr Charles Ndaba.  It was said to me that an attempt was made to set the vehicle alight.

MR HATTINGH: Might this be a convenient stage to take the adjournment, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I see it's 11 o'clock.  We'll take a short tea adjournment at this stage.

MS LOCKHAT: Please stand.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?