Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-04

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Beauty I will come to Mr Wynand to make you take an oath then thereafter Mrs Joyce Seroke will lead your evidence.  Over to you Wynand.

BEAUTY NTULI: (sworn states)

MRS SEROKE: We welcome you, Mrs Ntuli. Will you please introduce the person who is next to you.

BEAUTY NTULI: This is Namaselele Josephine.  Mr Ntuli had five wives.  She is one of the five women.

MRS SEROKE: We welcome you, Mrs Ntuli.  We are going to request Mrs Ntuli to tell us about her life with Mr Ntuli together with other wives as you have mentioned that he had five wives.  Tell us how many children do you have.  Tell us everything.

BEAUTY NTULI: I have one child.  Namaselele has two children.  Mpande has one, Makwena has one and Namasangu has six.

MRS SEROKE: How many of them in number?

BEAUTY NTULI: There are 12 in all.

MRS SEROKE: What are they doing?

BEAUTY NTULI: They are at school.  We cannot just afford them ...

MRS SEROKE: Are they schooling?

BEAUTY NTULI: Yes, but all of them are at school.   Some of them left school, the elderly ones.

MRS SEROKE: We ask that you tell us more about the things that happened on the 12th July 1986.
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BEAUTY NTULI: On the 29th July 1986, it was round about 8 p.m. they came, a white person telling me that my husband had died.  On that day my husband did tell me that other people, white men, wanted to kill him.  He heard that they were all around looking for him.  It happened that they killed him.  It was clear that they wanted to kill him. He went out for a meeting but I can't remember well at what time.  He went to that meeting.  When they went out of the meeting he never came back home.

MRS SEROKE: How did they kill Mr Ntuli?

BEAUTY NTULI: They bombed him.

MRS SEROKE: What was he doing?  What was he here in Kwandebele?  Was he a member of the parliament?  What portfolio did he hold?

BEAUTY NTULI: He was the Minister of the Interior.

MRS SEROKE: What other portfolio did he hold?

BEAUTY NTULI: I know that only, I don't know of another.

MRS SEROKE: On the statements that you are having it was clear that Mr Ntuli was a leading member for Mbokoto.

BEAUTY NTULI: At all times he didn't tell us about his political activity.  The only thing I know is that every day he would wake up and go to work and I know that he was working for the community.

MRS SEROKE: What kind of political party or political organisation?

BEAUTY NTULI: I don't know.  When he arrived with his papers from work then he only told me that he is the Minister of the Interior and that is all.

MRS SEROKE: Just try to tell us about the situation, the political situation in Kwandebele at that time. What was happening?
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BEAUTY NTULI: At that time the situation was tense and people were burning houses and they were burning shops.  People were killed.

MRS SEROKE: What is the reason for that kind of political unrest that property was burned, people were killed?  What is the reason if you may think.

BEAUTY NTULI: People were killing each other.

MRS SEROKE: Who was killing who?

BEAUTY NTULI: I would not know what was the reason for the killings.

MRS SEROKE: I want to know what was the reason.  Those people who have planted a bomb which killed Mr Ntuli, do you know them?

BEAUTY NTULI: Yes, I know them.  I firstly met them in Johannesburg.  I don't remember the date but I started to know them on the 31st October.  They did confess that they did kill Mr Ntuli.  I didn't know them.

MRS SEROKE: When you say you saw them in Johannesburg where in Johannesburg?

BEAUTY NTULI: At the Truth Commission hearing.

MRS SEROKE: Was it amnesty?

BEAUTY NTULI: Yes, it was amnesty.

MRS SEROKE: Did they confess why did they plant the bomb?

BEAUTY NTULI: No they didn't explain that.

MRS SEROKE: You did say that Mr Ntuli did tell you that the secret police are looking for him.  Did he tell you what was the reason?

BEAUTY NTULI: He didn't explain to me the reasons why, he only said that day when he said the security police where he was talking with Judge Mahlangu and they were talking about this thing very seriously.
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MRS SEROKE: It is surprising that Mr Ntuli was the minister of interior affairs in the government at that time that they were in favour of independence for Kwandebele.  Do you know that?  Did you know that the cabinet of that time was in favour of independence for Kwandebele?

BEAUTY NTULI: No, I don't know.

MRS SEROKE: If you don't know it will be very difficult to know that the police were working with the cabinet at that time that this homeland should gain independence.   You don't know why they planted that bomb because you said you don't know that the cabinet was in favour of independence of Kwandebele.  We will leave that point.  We will ask those who will follow you.  However, you have said you have seen these people who said they have bombed your place, how do you feel now after knowing the people responsible for killing your husband because at the time you did not know who was responsible for killing your husband.  How do you feel now?

BEAUTY NTULI: My opinion is that those people should be brought to book.

MRS SEROKE: You know that they have applied for amnesty?

BEAUTY NTULI: We don't know whether they would be granted amnesty or not.  I don't have forgiveness.

MRS SEROKE: We will hand over to Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: If I remember well in Northern Sotho when it is like this perhaps the five of you should be having someone who is to be responsible for you, that is from the traditional point of view.  Is there such a man or such a head of the kraal who is directly responsible for your welfare now?  You have said that you do not know much about what was all regarding the independence issue. I would
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assume that you do not know because at that time in Kwandebele women were denied franchise.

BEAUTY NTULI: We didn't have a right as women to get into such issues.

CHAIRPERSON: We, the Truth Commission, we want to thank you for your presence before us.  We sympathise with you and we feel that the family ties should continue and your role in the community should remain firm, solid and spreading and for this reason the Truth and Reconciliation undertakes to make whatever effort it can to follow up what has happened to you.   Already you have got at least a glimpse from what you got from the Amnesty Committee but we are still mindful of what you have said with regard to the children, the dependants that were left by (indistinct) Ntuli.  We wish that they be brought up within their family atmosphere, within the community atmosphere and we will have all the committee together with us we will see to it that whatever can be possible to make your participation fairly meaningful will be done.  For this we are very grateful and we say please go strong.  Understand the support we offer you. Thank you.