Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

JUDGE NGCOBO: Is there any - do you have any other witness that we might be able to hear perhaps in the absence of Mr Mhlaba?

MR DORFLING: From my side I've got no further witnesses.

JUDGE NGCOBO: What about your colleagues?

MR PRETORIUS: We've got no witnesses we'd like to call, but all I'm going to submit is just some further pages by Mr du Plessis of the ballistic experts.  Honourable Chairman and Committee members would recall that my learned friend, Mr Berger submitted certain pages but not the full report, and there's just a few pages in addition to that which I would like to submit.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair, may I just reverting to Mr Mhlaba indicate that on the last occasion when I saw him, the date for this hearing hadn't been fixed, that's why we only had an arrangement to see each other prior to the hearing and unfortunately I couldn't fix a date because I didn't see him.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, I'm now going to adjourn and we'll resume at 09h30 tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION:  04.08.98 - DAY 2

CHAIRPERSON: Before the commencing of evidence I'd just like to place on record the tragedy suffered by Ms Ramula Patel, the leader of evidence.  She received news last night that her mother had passed away after a short illness, and she had to leave early this morning.  We're sorry that she's had to meet this kind of difficulty and my Committee will be conveying our sympathies to her and to the other members of her family.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman we would like to place on record our sadness about the announcement of this event.  She is a person who has been of tremendous assistance to all of us in making documents available and always being available and we associate ourselves with the remarks that you have made.

MR DORFLING: Could we likewise on behalf of the objectors convey our sympathies to the family and bereaved ones.

MR PRETORIUS: From our side we'd like to convey our sympathies as well.
	There's just one further thing, Ms Patel assisted us by making available to us her copy of the record so that we could make copies of that last night, on the understanding that we return it to her this morning.  We've indeed got the copies here, her copy here to be returned to her but unfortunately we can't return it to her now in view of the circumstances.  May I request from the Chair to indicate to us to whom we can return it so that it can eventually find its way to herself.

CHAIRPERSON: At the conclusion of these hearings you can bring them over to me and I will see to it that it reaches her.  Thank you very much.

MR PRETORIUS: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dorfling your witness is ready?

MR DORFLING: Indeed so Mr Chair.  I beg leave to call Mr Bafana Gonzweize Mhlaba.  The witness will be giving his evidence in the Zulu language, Mr Chair.

BAFANA GONZWEIZE MHLABA: (Duly sworn in, states)

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Mr Mhlaba you were born in 1957, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: You were brought up in the Zulu culture, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Do you still adhere to Zulu tradition and Zulu rituals?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Have you undergone any formal schooling?

MR MHLABA: I didn't attend school.

MR DORFLING: On the 28th of March 1994 you were residing at the Mansfield Hostel in room no E7, is that correct?

MR MHLABA: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING: Presently you are unemployed, were you employed at that stage?

MR MHLABA: Yes, I worked.

MR DORFLING: Now there was a planned Zulu gathering at Library Gardens on the 28th of March 1994, did this come to your knowledge?

MR MHLABA: I was told by our team leader or our Induna, Mr Mbatha.

MR DORFLING: What were you told by Mr Mbatha?

MR MHLABA: Mbatha told us that there is an imbezo, a meeting, where the King will be present and that will be in town.

MR DORFLING: Was any venue in specific mentioned to you?

MR MHLABA: They said we will meet at the place he said, the garden, Library Gardens.

MR DORFLING: Did you at that stage know where the Library Gardens were situated?

MR MHLABA: I didn't know the place personally.

MR DORFLING: How were you going to find your way there?

MR MHLABA: Mr Mbatha was to direct us.

MR DORFLING: Is that Induna Mbatha?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Can you describe the events of the morning of the 28th of March 1994?  I want you to start at the hostel, how you found your route to town and what happened.

MR MHLABA: Yes, I can explain before the Committee.  I don't know whether I can continue?

MR DORFLING: Yes, please continue.

MR MHLABA: On that particular day as we were informed earlier before the day, on the 28th we were called as usual by a clock.  On our arrival the Induna took us into a train.  At the Mansfield Station we went in and we got into the train and we departed.

MR DORFLING: The people that boarded the train, were they residents of the Mansfield Hostel?

MR MHLABA: Yes, but I will not know because we find some other people waiting at the station, they might be people from outside.

MR DORFLING: Fine you may proceed, you then boarded the train, what happened then?

MR MHLABA: The train pulled out, we were happy until we arrived at Park Station.

MR DORFLING: Yes, what happened at Park Station?

MR MHLABA: When we arrived at Park Station, those who were in the front coaches, as we were in the middle coaches, they went out of the train while our group went out following them.

MR DORFLING: Were you divided into two groups at that stage?

MR MHLABA: I would say I don't remember if there were more that two, but I would say ... (no further English translation)

INTERPRETER: Excuse me, there are some technical problems.

MR DORFLING: Can I for the convenience of the Interpreter just perhaps repeat the question.  Were you divided into two groups at that point in time?

MR MHLABA: As I have explained, when I alighted from the train there was one group infront of us, I was in the second group myself.  I won't be able to say if there was a third or another group.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I interpose, when you got out of the station, you yourself in the group in which you were in, did you meet with the second group?  Did you meet the second group to form one group?

MR MHLABA: When we went outside we didn't combine to form one group, we just followed each other.

SISI KHAMPEPE: "We just follow each other", you mean going to the same direction, the same ..(indistinct)?

MR MHLABA: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Did you have anybody in particular leading your group?

MR MHLABA: Nobody was an Induna in our group, the Induna was in front, however there were marshals who controlled us, or the chorus leaders.

MR DORFLING: If you say the Induna was in the front, was that in the front of the first group in other words, to leave the station?

MR MHLABA: Yes, he was infront of the first group.

MR DORFLING: Yes, what happened as you come out of the station?

MR MHLABA: Out of the station we saw our brothers who were being turned back from a direction which we were supposed to proceed.  Our brothers were stopped by the police and we were told that we should turn to the left and use that street to the left.  We followed them.

MR DORFLING: You are referring to you "brothers", are you referring to the first group or to other people?

MR MHLABA: I'm talking about the first group which was in front of us.

MR DORFLING: You explained that they were turned back, and then later you explained they were asked to turn left, can you just explain what exactly happened?

MR MHLABA: The truth is I didn't say they were turned back, I said since they were in front of us they were told that they shouldn't take the turn out from the Park Station, they should take the left turn and take the road from the Park Station, not that they should go back but they should turn to the left.

MR DORFLING: Yes, did your group follow that group?