Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: The reason why I concentrated on Oscar - we split them up in two groups because we wanted to do a thorough job.  We didn't want to interrogate them haphazardly, we had to separate them in two groups.  The first group was in the other room and we were in the other room and I assigned myself to Oscar and other comrades of mine assigned themselves to the other victims.  There isn't a more specific reason.  We wanted to make a thorough job that is why we split up.

MR AMEEN: So let me understand this clearly.  You and your comrades spent between an hour and an hour and a half beating them up in the kitchen, stripping them and then you separate them to do a more thorough job.  All you wanted to know from them was whether they were members of the UDF, that is all you wanted, an answer to one question.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, you are mis-stating the evidence, that is not the evidence.  The evidence is not that all they wanted to know was whether they were UDF, the evidence was they wanted to know if they were UDF, who had given them instructions, if anybody, who are those people and so on and so forth.

MR AMEEN: My apologies Mr Chairman.  I will rephrase that.  One of the things that you wanted to know was whether they were members of UDF.  You have already spent an hour, an hour and a half beating them up and then you separate them again to make a more thorough job.  What did you hope to get.  Did you get the answers by that time already?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Mr Ameen I have details for what happened in the bedroom, I will confine myself to those details because I remember them well.  The reason why we took such a long time to interrogate them was because they did not provide information at the same time.  It took them time to take out the information, that is the reason why it took us long to interrogate them.

MR AMEEN: Can you remember Oscar now, as you sit can you picture him?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Yes I can picture him.

MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman I have been given two photographs, there are four people in these two photographs by my clients, Oscar is one of the people here.  I ask permission to show these photographs to the applicant and for him to identify Oscar?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I can recognise Oscar on this photo.

MR AMEEN: And which one is he?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: The witness is pointing ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ameen you can approach the witness to satisfy yourself as to what his identification is.

MR AMEEN: The identification is correct, ja.  Now, in the bedroom you asked - there were three people in your group or of the six youths, you and people with you had divided them into two and you had three of them.  The three of them I put it to you was the late Oscar, Msilana and Mbulelo. Is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just repeat the names?

MR AMEEN: The late Oscar, Msilana and Mbulelo.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Repeat your question sir, I did not get it?

MR AMEEN: Part of the group of six youths, you took three of them with your comrades into one bedroom and the three youths who were with you were the late Oscar, the lat Mbulelo and the late Msilana?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I do not know the other names of SOSCO members, I only know Oscar.

MR AMEEN: Mr Chairman I would have a little bit of a difficulty here, I'm not going to proceed on cross examining him on what happened in the bedroom himself because I do not have any instructions on that.  I will be putting a fair number of questions on what happened in the other bedroom to Mr Hslasa.  I will now proceed from the time they then took the youths away from the house.

ADV BOSMAN: Can I just ask one question before you proceed please?

MR AMEEN: Thank you advocate.

ADV BOSMAN: Just tell my why Mr Mphoreng did you particularly assign Oscar to yourself or let's look at it differently, how were these victims assigned.  Who assigned them or did each of you pick a victim to interrogate?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: We decided ourselves at that time, myself and the comrades who were with me at that time.

ADV BOSMAN: Why then did you assign yourself to Oscar?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: It automatically happened.  I don't think I have a specific reason why I got into that room where Oscar was because we were splitting up, others got into the other room and others went into the other.

MR MALAN: Sorry just before you proceed again Mr Ameen, just on the question that was put to you by Mr Ameen that you were found painting that house, you said you were cleaning that house.  Were you also repainting some of the walls or anything.  Was paint involved?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: The house had been burnt down, the curtains were burnt down now there was smoke.

MR MALAN: The question was a straightforward question, can you remember that part of the cleaning up was painting, that's the only question, it's a simple yes or no.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: We were not primarily going to paint, we were going to gut the house and be with the comrade because his house had been burnt.

MR MALAN: Mr Mphoreng the question is, were you also painting, even if that's a small part of it, were you painting?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I do not remember anything about painting, I do not remember whether paint was there.

MR MALAN: Are you saying that there was not paint or is it possible that some of the others or yourself might have been painting?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: There is such a possibility that some of us were painting, but I do not remember.

MR MALAN: Thank you Mr Ameen.

MR AMEEN: Thank you.  Mr Chairman with your permission I just want to retrace and raise two issues which I have failed to do and which I want to bring up now.  The survivors who are present today will also say that there was drinking of liquor while they were being assaulted by the group that was assaulting them.  Was there liquor on the premises and was there drinking by you people?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I did not use liquor in 1986.  There might be a probability that there was liquor.

MR AMEEN: The bottle which you used with which to assault Oscar, what bottle was it?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I do not remember whether it was a beer bottle or a cooldrink bottle, but it was a bottle.

MR AMEEN: How bit was it, what colour was it?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: It was a big bottle but I do not remember the colour, I do not want to commit myself but I do not remember the colour, it was a big bottle.

ADV BOSMAN: Where did you get the bottle from, do you remember that?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: It was in the house.

ADV BOSMAN: Where in the house was it, one doesn't usually keep a bottle in the bedroom or was it in the bedroom?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I think I found the bottle in the kitchen.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  During the interrogation of Oscar and the other two in the bedroom, did the other people who were with you drink in the process of interrogation?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Chairperson this incident happened twelve years ago.  This is one of the details I do not remember very well, but there is such a probability, maybe some of them were drinking.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you must tell me, on what basis do you reach that probability?  Why do you think that could possibly have been true?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I bring it in because some of my comrades were drinking in 1986, they used to drink.

CHAIRPERSON: Drinking during interrogation, would it not be something that you should really remember?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Chairperson I do not remember.

MR AMEEN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mphoreng we, what has struck us during your evidence is that you time and again use the word probable or probability and do you understand there is a difference between possible and possibility on the one hand and probable and probability on the other hand.  Do you appreciate the difference?