Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

<UNKNOWN>: RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE
APPLICATION NO

MATTER: BOIPATONG MASSACRE

DAY: 4

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom, are you ready with your next witness, or do you want us to take a short break?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I would like to just go through the statement with the next applicant.  He was the person who was never here and only arrived this morning for the first time.  So I think I could use a little bit of time going through his statement.  I ask for a short adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: So as to get a sense of what's ...(indistinct), the next witness that you intend calling is Mr Magubane?

MR STRYDOM: That's indeed so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Would people in the hall please keep quiet.
	Do you know at this stage who you would call after Mr Magubane?

MR STRYDOM: The next witness I intend calling is Sonny Michael Mkwanazi.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the applicant who has always been in prison?

MR STRYDOM: Ja, Mr Magubane and Sonny Michael Mkwanazi have both been in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well, we will then give you the opportunity to recognise Mr Magubane.  We will come back at 3.30.

MR STRYDOM: That will be sufficient time, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: May I see counsel in the Committee room please.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: I've been asked to make an announcement to the following effect:  Members of the audience are requested not to make a noise whilst they are inside the toilets which are at the back of the stage.

MR BOTHA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, at this stage of the proceedings I just want to get on record.  My name is H Botha and I'm appearing on behalf of Mr Peens, an implicated party in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Botha.

MR BOTHA: May I be excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, by all means.

MR BOTHA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it that by being excused you mean finding some convenient place at which you will be sitting in order to follow the proceedings?

MR BOTHA: Indeed so, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson.  The next applicant to testify is Debogo Magubane.

CHAIRPERSON: What are your full names Mr Magubane?

CHAIRPERSON: Ruben, what is the second name?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Maganga.

CHAIRPERSON: For the record can you just spell that for us please?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I'm not able to spell my name.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  I take it that you are going to speak Sotho?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.
	Yes, Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Thank you.
	Mr Magubane, what is your level of education?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I did not go to school, Sir.

MR STRYDOM: I'm going to show you a form contained in the bundle on page 79, page 80, page 81, and I'm also going to show you a mark, a cross, did you make that cross on this document?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Now this document is Form 1 has been explained to you and that what is written there has been explained to you, do you confirm that contents of this document?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Next to this document are two further pages, an annexure answering some of the questions asked in the form, has this also been explained to you?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Do you agree with the contents?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: The one answer given in this annexure or the explanation I would rather say, is to explain the political objective which you wanted to achieve by attacking Boipatong.  Now apart from what is stated here I want you to explain in your own words why did you attack Boipatong.

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I'll be able to explain.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, go ahead.

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: In 1991, my parents' house was destroyed, their house was burnt in Sharpeville.  I don't know why.  People came to look for me and I was not inside.  That is why I took part in the attack in Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: After you'd moved into KwaMadala hostel, could you move freely in Boipatong or any of the other Vaal Triangle townships?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: In the whole of Vaal Triangle I was not able to move freely.  My parents were not allowed to see them with me or to - they ran to Boipatong when their house was burnt in Sharpeville but to go to them in Boipatong I was not able to.  If I were to enter in Boipatong or Sharpeville or anywhere in the Vaal Triangle I would be killed.

MR STRYDOM: You testified that your parents' house in Sharpeville was burnt down.  What I want to know is why did you not attack Sharpeville rather than Boipatong?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Sharpeville was too far from KwaMadala hostel.  The nearest place was our target, which was Boipatong.  If Sharpeville was nearer to KwaMadala hostel, we would attack Sharpeville but because Boipatong was near and we were able to go there on foot, we chose Boipatong as our target.

MR STRYDOM: In the answer you said that the ANC people were in control of the Self Defence Units, can you just explain that?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: It is because that in the whole of the township, if you were kidnapped by the SDUs, all residents of Boipatong would take part in  your torture or in your attack.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know to which political party the Self Defence Units belonged to?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: I would not say I know which organisation they fell in.  I was a member of the IFP, there was no member of the IFP who belonged to the SDUs.  I would not say as to whether they fell within PAC or ANC or as to whether they fall in one organisation but I know that PAC was never suppressed or harassed to the extent that they had to leave the township as we did as members of the IFP.

MR STRYDOM: Certain particulars were required from you, the questions appear on page 85 and 86, and your answers on page 87 to page 89.  Do you confirm the answers?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Maybe if you can read them to me I will be able to confirm or not.

MR STRYDOM: Yes.  I'll read them again.  The question is - and you indicated you want to effect a change there, that's to me.
"When did you first move into the KwaMadala hostel?"
The answer given here:
"More or less January 1992."
Is that correct?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I said so, that early January is the time that I went to KwaMadala.  The date is the wrong one, I went there in 1991.

MR STRYDOM: So you want that date to read 1991?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: The next question
"Were there two groups of attackers?"
And your answer was:
"Yes."
Do you stand by that?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.
MR STRYDOM
"Who led the two groups?"
You said:
"Mkhize and Damarra."
Are you happy with that?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is Damarra Chonco and Mkhize.

MR STRYDOM: And the question was
"In which one were you?"
You said:
"I'm not sure anymore but I think it was Mkhize's group."
Do you stand by that answer?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: My answer was that I was not sure in which group I was but I saw Mr Mkhize, so I fell under Mkhize's group.

MR STRYDOM: The question was
"Did you see AK47 rifles on the eve of the 17th?"
And your answer was:
"Yes."

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is true.

MR STRYDOM: The next question
"Where did you first see these weapons on this evening?"
And you said:
"At the stadium."

INTERPRETER: May the legal representative please be slow, we are not able to follow the questions led by the legal representative.

MR STRYDOM: I will go slower.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps it would be useful if you also indicate where you are reading at this stage so that they can follow.

MR STRYDOM: I'll see they get a copy of that.

MS CAMBANIS: I've just handed a copy to them, Mr Chairperson.