Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-23

MZWANDILE GUSHU: We were fighting, it was difficult to notice such, I had to do and finish what I was there to do, so that I run away so that I don't get arrested.

MR HATTINGH: Did you shoot in the direction of the women?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I was shooting at all of them, everybody that was with Chris and Chris.   I was not the only one who was shooting, it was two of us.   It is difficult to know who was killed by whom.   I do, however, admit that I caused these people to be injured and to lose their lives, I do admit that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Hattingh.   Mr Gushu, I know this did not happen.   What would have happened if these women had simply sat down on the ground and not run away, would you still have shot them?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I would not have, Chair.   Even if they were walking behind Chris, I would have just shot at Chris and not at those girls.   I was not fighting with those ladies.  I don't remember a single time when it was said that a female is a problem in Ermelo, except for the members of the Black Cats.   It is only the members of the Black Cats that were problematic.

MR HATTINGH: Were there any women members of the Black Cats?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Because they had followers, I would say that they had female members.

MR HATTINGH: But you did not consider the two women accompanying Chris Ngwenya to be targets for your work?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: My target was Chris, they were not my targets.

MR HATTINGH: With regard to the arms that they used during all the incidents, were you supplied with an AK-47 and/or any other arms at the time of your training in Nelspruit?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: As I've said, Chair, I got firearms with information I got from the DLB's, there is no weapon I brought from Nelspruit.

MR HATTINGH: Did you ever receive direct instructions to kill, direct instructions from Javu Mkhwanazi to kill Advice Gwala?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I tried to explain, sir, that the instruction that I was given was open, that I should sort out the situation in Secunda, Ermelo, Darville(?) and Piet Retief.  To me everything I did, I did under those instructions, I was obeying instructions given to me by my commander.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Gushu, we've heard this answer on many occasions, would you please just answer my question?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I would say yes, it was part of the whole thing, even though he did not stipulate that I should go and kill Mr Gwala, but the instruction was so open such that it gave me the right to go and sort things out as I saw accordingly.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Mkhwanazi never mentioned the name Advice Gwala to you?

CHAIRPERSON: That's what he says.   We accept it.

MR HATTINGH: If that was the position why in paragraph 29 on page 32 you made a statement which you confirmed to be correct and you said
"I received instructions from Javu Mkhwanazi to kill Advice Gwala"?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It is because the instruction that I was given was open, I did not see, as I already said, that each incident that I was involved in or that I have come here to ask for amnesty, I should go back and ask him.

MR HATTINGH: So what you say is, paragraph 29, where it carries on and says
"I was also instructed to go to Breyten Mines and to confiscate arms and ammunition",
that is not correct, that's just sort of part of an open-ended instruction that you received two years previously?

CHAIRPERSON: Why is it not correct?

MR HATTINGH: The applicant just told us that he received a single instruction and acted on his own without further specific instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it ought to be obvious now that he's relying on what he says was an open mandate which gave him ultimate discretion to sort out what they perceived as problems in the various districts, and to do it in the way that he deemed fit.   Is that not so?   He's constantly said that the only name that was mentioned was Zwane, together with a broad instruction that he, as a soldier, must sort out the problems that they were experiencing in the various districts, and he has used his discretion, he says, in doing so.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I'll proceed.   If you'll just bear with me for one moment, I just want to quickly page to where I still need to cross-examine on.   With regard to the death of Chris Ngwenya, were you aware of the fact that on the Saturday prior to the killing of Mr Ngwenya on the Sunday, that Mr John Mndebele laid a charge of assault with the police against Chris Ngwenya?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I won't be able to answer that, I would not be able to answer it.

CHAIRPERSON: But were you aware of it, did you know that he laid a charge or not?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It's difficult for me to answer, Chair, because I did not, I've never spoke to Ngwenya, I would just greet like I would greet anybody I meet in the street, I can't answer that, I had no knowledge as to what was going on at his home or his life.

MR HATTINGH: With regard to the killing of Advice Gwala, the mother of Advice Gwala is present and although you've explained or admitted to killing Advice Gwala, very little of the details of that incident has come to light, and I've received instructions to request, and with the permission of the Committee, that you give us a fuller picture of the incident, what occurred there, because I believe the children, the two children, as well as the wife of Mr Gwala, were involved in this incident?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Mr Chair, can I go ahead?   I was standing underneath a pole, I was standing to a pole next to a school on the street going up to his house.   As I was standing there, I could see that Gwala's car was in the yard.   So what happened is that his wife got out of the house to put some things into the car, I'm not sure what things, and then the wife got out with the children to put them in the car.  After that, she went back into the house.   Then Gwala got out of the house.   That is when I went to shoot Gwala.

MR HATTINGH: Did you shoot Mr Gwala in front of his two minor children?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I did shoot in front of the children, everything that happened they saw, even though they were inside the car.

MR HATTINGH: Was Mr Gwala, at that moment when you shot him, busy opening the door of the car?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: No, he was going towards the car, about to open the door, that's when I shot at him.

MR HATTINGH: Did Mr Gwala ever get into the car?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I did not even let him open the door, or even tough the door, he did not get inside the car, it was only the children that were in the car.

MR HATTINGH: But when you shot at Mr Gwala, is it correct that you also hit the car with some of the bullets?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I would not know, Mr Chair, even if you said it happened, I wouldn't dispute it.

MR HATTINGH: Do you know whether the children got hurt in the incident?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I don't know, because I ran off.    I did not stay to see what had happened, but I made sure that what I had gone there to do was accomplished.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, if you'll just bear with me?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you almost finished?

MR HATTINGH: I'm almost finished, I'm just looking for last issues.   Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you'd run out of it.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.   I've also been instructed, and I've been reminded by my attorney that the mother of Advice Gwala would like to hear the reasons for your killing Advice Gwala from your own mouth, and if you've already told this Committee, I've been asked to ask you again to just repeat it.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I said that Gwala, according to the knowledge I had or received, Gwala was a member of Inkatha, also a member of AWUSA, AWUSA that was totally against Cosatu, he was an obstacle in the liberation of the people.

MR HATTINGH: Who pointed Gwala out to you?