Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

MR VISSER: Yes, but the question that is now being put is that: "your evidence can't be correct that KK was fetched a day or two after Betty Boom was fetched".  That's the question.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I appreciate that ...

CHAIRPERSON: That is the question, but it can't be right.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I appreciate that Chairperson, I retract that question.  That is all Chairperson, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: No re-examination, Chairperson.
	Perhaps, just in order to be of some assistance I could ask this. 
	Mr Thulo, do you remember what this house on this farm looked like, can you give us a description of this house?  How many bedrooms were there, was there a lounge, was there furniture in this house, was there a stoep, where was the toilet, was it inside the house, was it outside the house?  Can you give us some sort of description, so that we just know what this house on the farm looked like.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: When you enter this house from the front door you enter into a lounge and then from there you move to a diningroom, then adjacent to that diningroom, the first bedroom - let me go back.  Next to the lounge is the first bedroom and then another one next to the diningroom and as you pass to the kitchen there's a third bedroom and the third bedroom was just next to the kitchen, and next to the kitchen was also a toilet.  It was like that Chairperson, as I recall it.

MR VISSER: The toilet was inside the house?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is so, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: I thought it might be of assistance if not only of mere interest, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser.  Mr Lax, clarifications you seek?

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Thulo, just for your benefit and comment I want to tell you what Mr Jantjie said with regard to the collection of Betty Boom.  He said they - and let me just put this in context for you first.  After there were suspicions about Betty Boom being an informer within the ANC, in other words the ANC had suspicions and your unit got wind of that, it was decided that she would be brought to the farm and that it would be made to look like an abduction.  That was the plan that was hatched and that's what he testified to, and he testified in particular that you were present when that plan was discussed.  What do you say about that?

CHAIRPERSON: Before you respond, my recollection is that when this plan was discussed, the four of you, that is all members of your unit were present.  Would that be correct, Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Correct.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I do not agree with that, Chairperson, I was not present.

MR LAX: Now you see, we heard from others that that was the plan as well, that if there was a problem that an effort would be made to make it look like an abduction, and that would have required planning and the person who would definitely have to know about that would be the driver.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I will repeat again, I was not present when this plan was hatched, I only learnt about that afterwards when we were making our applications for amnesty.

MR LAX: Now with regard to Tax, the version that you've given us is quite different from the version we've already had from Mr Jantjie, because according to him the plan was this, Tax had been phoned, he'd been give a description of your vehicle and it had been arranged where you were going to meet him and he was supposed to come to your vehicle, having that description.  That was the plan.  And it appears, both from the evidence and from the papers, and if you want I'll give you the specific references if you like, but can take my word for it, I wouldn't mislead you.  You were unaware of that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: No, Chairperson, I did not know.  I have already explained that these people had their own discussions together with Betty and Tax and I wasn't present at that time.  I wasn't present when they were holding those discussions.  If this is what Mr Jantjie said I know, I dispute what he said, I would say he's lying.

MR LAX: Well you see the problem with that is that these are matters that appear in his affidavit which you've incorporated into your application, and in particular, if you look at paragraph 32 and paragraph 33 on page 7G, and paragraph 31 by the way.  You've read it have you?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Yes, I've read that Chairperson.

MR LAX: And what is your comment please?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I dispute this, Chairperson, Jantjie never told me that Betty telephoned Tax.

MR LAX: Now the way Jantjie testified about Tax was that he wasn't suspicious until they arrived at the farm, he had no suspicions whatsoever until they arrived at the farm.  What do you say?  That's quite different to what you've told us.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I said that when I stopped the car next to Tax he looked like somebody who was scared, but after he was called by Jantjie and telling him that we were sent by Betty, he relaxed and he came to our car.  That is what I said, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well you see, what Jantjie and the others say is that this had been prearranged, so he had no reason to worry, he knew that people were coming to get him.  Do you see the difference?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is why Chairperson, I say that I don't know what the plans were like, I was just told to go there, I was not involved in the discussions of the plans, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Now with regard to KK, you've told us that you were at a meeting where discussions were held and there were other people who were telling you about KK, and it was clear from your evidence that these were other people besides your unit, who were these other people telling you about KK?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: May you please repeat your question, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well you testified yesterday in your evidence-in-chief that there were discussions, there was a meeting that took place before you got your instructions from Robertshaw, and that at that meeting that's when you first heard about KK, but there were other people from outside of your unit who were giving you information and you were discussing this information, all of you.  I want to know who those other people were.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I said that I was present during those discussions, Mr Jagga, Mr Jantjie and Mr Robertshaw were present, but I said I did not know where the information came from, I never said that there were people who gave us information during that discussion.

MR LAX: Well you said you were discussing this with other people from outside, or words to that effect.  I don't have the exact note that I took yesterday, if you like I'll find it for you and quote to you.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I do not remember me saying that, Chairperson.

MR LAX: If you'll just bear with me a moment, Chair, maybe Mr Sibanyoni could ask another question and I'll find that and come back to my questions.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Thulo, you said you were excluded when sensitive things were discussed, I forgot to ask you yesterday for the reason why you say your superiors can talk about that, why are you not telling us about that?  What prevents you from telling us about that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I said that maybe there were other sensitive matters that they were discussing, matters that I was not supposed to know, that is what I thought, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: Matters such as?  Or matters relating to what?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I would not know Chairperson, what they were discussing, I would neither know those matters that they were discussing.

MR SIBANYONI: But you were a member of that unit, if it was in connection with the unit, obviously you wouldn't be excluded.  What is your comment?