Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Stuart, just before you start, if I could just make a brief comment.  We note from the documentation given to us, that the information contained in the various affidavits submitted by the applicants together with their applications, that - just bear with me - that 56 incidents have been identified and are contained in the schedule.
	I am not sure if that contains each and every incident in respect of which all the applicants are intending to apply for amnesty, because in the application form it is merely said in response to the question, in respect of which incidents are you applying for amnesty, it just refers to the affidavit which is - all of them are voluminous excepting in one instance, affidavits.
	I would then request when we are dealing with matters that are not involved in actual incidents, or which have already been identified, or which will be identified by those representing the applicants, that if we can keep the evidence of matters outside that, as brief as possible and not go into too much detail.
	I don't know if there is any application, because it is not specified, relating for instance to the training of the persons in Caprivi.  Now, obviously you will be referring to that, it is quite evident from Mr Luthuli's affidavit, but I would request if possible, to keep the detail out of that and keep it as short as possible without placing any undue hinderance on the presentation of your case, if you could just keep that in mind because I think we have ahead of us a very long hearing and we would like to use our time as sufficiently as possible.  Thank you.

MR STUART: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  On that, it is my intention after discussion with the first applicant, to restrict the oral testimony to a certain extent and to nevertheless rely on everything which is contained in the statement, the sworn statement which is part of the application.
	It is of course true that various charges of conspiracy as well as sedition could arise out of the training in the Caprivi and it is also true that the training in the Caprivi as well as the first applicant's political history, relate very closely to the question of whether he was motivated politically in the subsequent incidents and also to what extent that was part of the programme of any political organisation or former political structure.
	But Mr Chairman, certainly my intention is to cover things in a broad sweep.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Stuart, you may commence.

MR STUART: If I might then call the first applicant.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (sworn states)

MR STUART: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  One of the issues which will bear on just how much detail we go into, is just who has an interest in the present proceedings, the position of my client, the first applicant, Mr Luthuli is that if there are people here who have a particular interest, having been affected by particular incidents, or areas, then he would like to deal with those in more detail and rather than others.
	Would it be convenient then Mr Chairperson, if we might ask whether there are people here from the areas of firstly Mpumalanga, secondly Claremont and thirdly eSikhawini?

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Stuart, as far as possible, obviously if the need arise, we will allow a witness to be recalled if something occurs, but I think that the best approach would be for a witness just to give his testimony, rather than deal with it in a piece meal basis.
	Perhaps I could ask here for what it is worth, because I - it is not actually essential that their physical presence be here to make it relevant or less relevant, do you want me to ask the people in the audience?

MR STUART: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Maybe we do not understand the import of your enquiry, as the Chairperson has indicated it is not relevant for people to be present at this kind of enquiry for purposes of giving a testimony of this nature.
	We might have missed the import of your enquiry.  If you want to further clarify.

MR STUART: Thank you.  The motivation behind the enquiry is simply this, that one of the purposes in my submission, of these hearings, is not only the question of technically whether the requirements of amnesty have been met, that could be done behind closed doors, one of the purposes is to facilitate a reconciliation, and the way in which that is best done in the view of my client, is to be able to explain to the affected people, what it is that he did that affected them.
	As I have explained, our intention is not to traverse every incident through more than 100 pages of affidavit in detail, but if for example there is a contingent here who have arrived from KwaMakutha because, or rather from Mpumalanga because they have a particular interest in the events that the first applicant was involved in there, then we would traverse those incidents in a little more detail rather than others.
	It is not a question of piece meal, it is just a question of fulfilling that additional purpose of these hearings.
	We are of course in the Committee's hands in that regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if I could ask from the people who are in attendance here, are there any persons here from Mpumalanga region, Woody Glen, yes?  And from Claremont?   And eSikhawini?  Not a great deal, but there are people present from each of the areas mentioned by yourself Mr Stuart.  You may proceed.

MR STUART: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Luthuli, you are familiar, are you not, with your affidavit which forms part of your amnesty application?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (No translation)

MR STUART: And Mr Luthuli, do you confirm the contents of that affidavit?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (No translation)

MR STUART: And you rely on all that is set out on that affidavit for this application?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (No translation)

MR STUART: Mr Luthuli, is it right that you are a descendant of Chief Albert Luthuli?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (No translation)

MR STUART: And that your father was a staunch member of the African National Congress?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (No translation)

MR STUART: And that you in turn became a member of the African National Congress and the Umkonto weSizwe in particular?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (No translation)

MR STUART: Will you tell us briefly Mr Luthuli, how it came about that you became part of MK?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (No translation)

MR STUART: Mr Luthuli, excuse me interrupting you, is it right then that following that, you left the country and were trained as a soldier in Umkonto weSizwe?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (No translation)

MR STUART: And that included training at Odessa in the former Soviet Union?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (No translation)

MR STUART: Where were you deployed for MK?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (No translation)

MR STUART: Did you fight in the war to liberate Rhodesia?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (No translation)

MR STUART: And is it right that you were arrested and charged and sentenced?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (No translation)

MR STUART: Where did you serve your sentence?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (No translation)

MR STUART: And who were some of the people with whom you served on Robben Island?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: (No translation)

MR STUART: Upon being released from prison, how did it come about that you joined Inkatha?