Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-30

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, you testified that not all of you had firearms.  Others had ...

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: That is correct.  We were not all arms, armed with firearms.  Others were armed with spears and hunting knives.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Does it mean that at a particular stage the two groups came face to face physically fighting?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Yes, we did face each other and shot each other.  They shot at us and we shot at them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, but was there a stage where you came face to face in order to enable your people to use their assegais and to use the kirries that they had?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: We did not come that close, because they realised that the war was a bit difficult for them and they started running away.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Will I be correct to state that amongst those who died are those who were stabbed either with the assegais or hit with the kirries?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Yes, others were shot, others were stabbed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Which then would mean there was a physical contact to use umkhonto?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: May you please repeat your question.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Which would mean that there was physical contact in order to enable you to use the assegais?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Yes, others managed to run to a closer position where they could stab a person.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, in your evidence earlier on you made mention of a camp.  These people whom you say were in a camp, were they attacked after they had left the camp or whilst they were still in their camp?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: We found them at the camp.  That is where we started shooting at each other.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Does it mean that you, sort of, ambushed them as they were sitting in their camp?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: On the 26th, no we did not ambush them.  We were walking along the road.  They saw us coming.  So they were sleeping in one of the family, they got outside and took their firearms, started shooting at us and we lie down on the ground, on the road.  When we try to stand up they shot Ntolo and we retaliated.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, all this incident, that is before the 26th, you testified that your son was killed, some of the members were killed, some of them were injured.  Were these incidents ever reported to the police?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Yes, we did report these incidents to the police, even the burning of houses in April 1992.  About 52 houses were burnt and we reported the matter to the police and we also opened cases on these particular instances, but police did not do anything.  They did not arrest anybody.  We knew who burnt the houses and we knew who were the leaders in the whole violence.  However, the police did not do anything about it, because police from Richmond were supporting the IFP and it was like they were brothers.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now realising that the police at Richmond were supporting IFP, could you not have gone to another police station?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: We did not have that information that if that is the case we have to go to another police station.  We only knew the only police station, that was the Richmond Police Station.  We did not know that we have the right to go to another town to report the matter.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, if you can still remember, how many times have you been to the police to report the incident?  How many times?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: I will say three or four times we went to the police to report the matter and even when they burnt my shop I went to the police to report this and also went back to enquire whether they arrested someone in connection with that, because I knew I saw those people in court and I knew these were the people who burnt the shop, but they were not arrested.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADVOCATE MPSHE

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: I do not know maybe, I may be allowed to say something which I might want to say before the committee.  Do I have that right to do so?

ADV POTGIETER: Yes, you may.

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Between April and August these people have done a lot of things to us and we were patient enough.  They came and shot one of our brother in the Sappi company.  This man was a truck driver with the Fire Fighting Department.  They knew that he stayed in that compound.  Therefore, they went there and burnt, light some fire around the place so that he can come out and they went outside and shouted and said there is fire and when he got out of the compound they shot at him.  They failed to shoot him.  He ran with the truck and he managed to call the White man through the two ways radios and the people ran away.
	The following day soldiers came and arrested the people, those leaders, especially the leaders in the IFP rank in Richmond.  We knew and we heard that they were in Richmond Police Station.  I went there, I saw them personally and I greeted them inside the police station.  I found firearms lined on top of a table.  Some of them were unlicensed firearms and I knew those arms, because I was from Gengeshe.  On the following day the very same arms or firearms, I had seen them in Gengeshe with a very big, plastic carrying the ammunition and I asked one of the police, while knowing the truth, and I knew them and I saw those firearms.  I knew they were not licensed.  However, when I arrived at Gengeshe on the 26th I found the very same arms and some of them were left inside the house while they were running and they burnt with the house.
	Those people were collected by Mr Matthyson and he said they must not arrest them, they must release them and be given their firearms, because he was a person who did not want them to be disarmed and Mr Matthyson himself, he was also a police reserve and the police were very much afraid of him.  
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADVOCATE MPSHE

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know as to the whereabouts of this Mr Matthyson now?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: When they were running out of Gengeshe after the 26th incident, he also ran away with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where they, he is now, I think was the, do you know where he is now?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Mr Groenewald, was an investigator, mentioned that he is somewhere, but I do not remember exactly where, the name of the town which he mentioned.  He said he is somewhere  in one of the towns.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, members of the committee.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADVOCATE MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say he was there on the 26th and that he ran away with them or do you mean he ran away after the 26th?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: He ran after the 26th.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Poswa, who is Keswa Poswa, the one who killed your son?  Are you any relation to him?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Keswa Poswa is the young brother of one IFP member, it is my brother.  Indaba Zimboeza Poswa is my brother.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So, Keswa Poswa is your nephew?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Yes, he is, I would say he is my son, but it is nephew.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And did the police not investigate the death of your son which led to the arrest of Mr Poswa?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Keswa was arrested.  He went to Sipling.  He was, appeared before the court.  On the 6th of October he was found not guilty by the court.  Witnesses did come and give evidence that they saw him killing the young boy.  They said he shot him with a rifle, 16 bullets from front.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now, you have testified that the reason why you went back to Gengeshe was to go back to your homes and you also ...

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... went to inspect damage to two of your shops.  One at Umkumazi and one at Gengeshe on the 26th?

MANDLENKOSI T POSWA: That is correct and also to stay there, because we had the right to go back to our places, because we were born there.