Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-14

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: It is true.  It is not my handwriting but the facts are from my mouth.

MS MTANGA: So I'm asking you, who filled in this application for you, I need the name of that person.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: It's been quite a while and I have forgotten the name of the person who filled these forms for us.

MS MTANGA: Were you assisted by a PAC or an APLA member to fill in these applications?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: PAC member assisted.

MS MTANGA: ;   Was he a fellow prisoner?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, may I just interpose here?   Mr Pudumo if you look at page 8 is that your handwriting?

MS MTANGA: Someone assisted me with writing.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is that?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: It was Kleinbooi Mashea.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And the handwriting on page 6?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: The same.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was Mr Mehi at any stage with you in the Grootvlei prison?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is correct, Sir.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So you met him there again?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Yes, I found him at Grootvlei.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you discuss this incident with him?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.  You told this Committee that one of your instructions was to repossess from this farm that you had identified.  Can you tell this Committee what is the policy of the PAC and APLA regarding repossession?  Why were they repossessing and what units were formed to carry out this repossession?  Can you give us the full background of the repossession policy.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: After taking whatever we take, we had to sell those things and assist the organisation in that regard.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, the question is simple.  What was the policy of the PAC in that regard and what repossession units were formed by the PAC?  That is the question to you.  Am I right Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Yes, you're correct, Chairperson.  Thank you.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: The policy said the land belonged to us.

MS MTANGA: Is that all you can say about the PAC policy about repossession?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Yes, that is why I'm saying the land and all that is on the land belonged to us.  The land and all that belongs to it.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga if I may interpose again.  Now when you went to this farm at Theunissen to repossess, were you going to repossess that farm in accordance with the PAC policy?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: When we went to Theunissen we were going to eliminate and take everything that we could get at that farm.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you going to repossess the farm as well in accordance with the policy of the PAC as you told us?  Take away, in other words, the farm from the owners because the PAC said the land belonged to us, we must repossess our land.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you need people to accompany you because you were simply going to repossess the farm, you would not carry the farm with?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: My Lord, if I understand you well, a farm is just, it's a place where buildings are erected, we only wanted to take what we could get on the farm.

CHAIRPERSON: And leave the farm as is?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: If we have removed the goods and nobody is staying there anymore, the land would be belonging to the Africans, those who were residing on the farm would be the owners of the land.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may proceed Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Pudumo, you haven't answered my question about what were the repossession units of the APLA called.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Can you please take it step by step, so that I understand it?

MS MTANGA: Take what step by step, Mr Pudumo.  I'm asking you the names, what were the repossession units of APLA called?  That's a single question.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I explained that the PAC's policy was, the land belongs to us and the, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Pudumo, what you are asked is, did you know within APLA there were specialised units which were formed to do that task which you were told by Mehi to do, did you know that?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now she wants to know from you about those specialised repossession units because they were in pockets, that's all she wants to know, it's very simple.  Would I be correct, Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Yes, you are correct, Chairperson, I'm indebted to you.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Task Force.

MS MTANGA: That is wrong, Mr Pudumo.

ADV SANDI: Just on that, did you know anything about the use of code names by APLA cadres?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Code names used where?

ADV SANDI: Do you know what a code name means?  Code name - that is when you are not using your real name for security.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Did you know anything about the use of such code names by members of APLA?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: What we knew was that members of APLA could use pseudonyms or disguises.

ADV SANDI: Did you have such a name?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: No.

ADV SANDI: And Rasta, did he ever have such a name?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I knew him through that name, Rasta.

ADV SANDI: And that was his real name, not so?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: No, I just knew him as Rasta Moloto and that was it.

ADV SANDI: When these two strangers were introduced to you by Rasta, did he introduce you to these gentlemen as well?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: On the way I learned their names.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but did he tell them what you name was, did he tell them?  What did he say to them?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: I told them what my name was.

ADV SANDI: Which was?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: Pabelo Pudumo.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MS MTANGA: Mr Pudumo earlier on you were asked what was the PAC motto.  Can you just tell the Committee what was the PAC motto?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: ...(ethnic)

MS MTANGA: That was also incorrect, Mr Pudumo.  As a PAC member who joined the PAC and was also recruited into the Task Force, how come that you don't know the basic information of the PAC and its operations, if you were really a PAC member and a Task Force member?  How can you not know a simple thing such as a motto of your organisation?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: That is why I'm saying the motto of the organisation is the land is ours.

MS MTANGA: I've just told you Mr Pudumo, that's a wrong answer, there is no such.  What kind of a member of PAC who'd go on and kill people and claim to be an ANC member and not know his own organisation's motto?

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: ...(not translated)

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga.  Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any re-exam?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling any witnesses, Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your case?

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the case of the applicant Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Pudumo thank you very much you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, are you leading any evidence?

MS MTANGA: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Could we be given very brief submissions, if any, Mr Mbandazayo.