Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-19

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you could just repeat your answer, Mr Mbane.
MR MBANE
"We took Ntombi with us, we went to the beach with her.  When we arrived there at the beach, Dube and Simon got out of the car, Ntombi and I - they left Ntombi and I.  When I saw this car with white man, I made a sign, gave them a sign, got out of the car and I left Ntombi in the car, after giving them a sign.
		I think ten to fifteen metres from the car I could see that they were taking here and they took her to a kombi.  They left with her.  I went back to the car with Radebe and Dube.  After about five to ten minutes we followed them.
		When we arrived in Winkelspruit we parked our car.  We were in the veranda, we could hear the screams when they were torturing her."

MR SAMUEL: When you last saw Ms Ntombi Kubheka, would you explain to us what you saw.  How were her hands, was she blindfolded?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: She was blindfolded and then her hands were tied from her back, if I can still remember well.

MR SAMUEL: And you told us that when you all got to Battery Beach, that's the place near the beach, you gave a signal, what signal did you give to the other white members?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I pressed the brakes about three times.

MR SAMUEL: Yes.  When you got to Winkelspruit, what happened, what did you see?
MR MBANE
"When we arrived there we parked our car opposite that house that was there, we then heard screams, Botha would come out and ask us that is it true that Ntombi said there were another four comrades, we would say yes, that's what she said, and Col Baker would come in and out and ask us some questions.
		After some time, after an hour or after two hours, Botha then came out and told us that that woman passed away, she is dead."

MR SAMUEL: Now try and be more specific here.  When Botha came out from the room and asked, you say asked you all what Ntombi had told you all, was Mr Radebe and Mr Dube present at that stage with you?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: The three of us we were there.

CHAIRPERSON: We know you were at Winkelspruit, but were they present with you, were they in your immediate presence when Botha came out and spoke to you?  Would they also have heard what Botha said, or were they in a different place at Winkelspruit.  We went there and saw that it's quite a big property.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, we were together in the veranda, the three of us.  We were together in the same place.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: I can't hear the translation.

CHAIRPERSON: The translation was, "Yes, we were together.  The three of us were in the same place."

MR SAMUEL: ...(indistinct)   I couldn't hear.

CHAIRPERSON: Just put your volume up a touch, Mr Samuel.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.
	Mr Mbane, Mr Radebe says that he was not present in the vicinity, he was far away at the kombi, he did not hear anything in regard to what transpired in that room.  What do you have to say about that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Sir, as I have already said, that's surprised me because I don't understand why he is hiding things, because we were together, Botha would come to us and Baker would come and ask questions.  We were in the veranda, the three of us.  It is true that he would sleep in the car, but when this was happening, the three of us were in the veranda.

MR SAMUEL: And these screams that you heard, were they loud screams, were they screams of pain?  Could you explain to this Commission what you heard in regard to the screams?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: She would scream and she would make screams of pain.  I could hear that she was in pain.

MR SAMUEL: I see.  And do you recall at what stage where Mr Radebe slept that night, did he sleep at Winkelspruit or did he go to CR Swart?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Sir, all of us we slept in Winkelspruit.  We left there after two days, after two days after this incident.

MR SAMUEL: And did you also sleep in the kombi with Mr Radebe on that night or did you sleep somewhere else?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, Dube and I slept in the same place where we used to sleep.  Radebe is the one who slept in the kombi, Dube and I slept in the veranda.

MR SAMUEL: Now the veranda that you speak about, how far is it away from where Ms Ntombi Kubheka was being interrogated?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It is the same place, it's just that that room had a door and in the veranda we did not have a door.  It's in the same place, it was next door.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that the deceased was in a room which led off the veranda, the door of the room in which she was, was on the veranda itself?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: When you go to that room you would pass the veranda and then go through that room.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Now if that door was open, would you able to see into that room, what transpired in that room?

CHAIRPERSON: I think if the door is open on any room you can see inside it, so I think rather ask whether he could see inside the room while she was there.

MR SAMUEL: Did you at any stage see Ms Ntombi Kubheka in that room whilst you were in the veranda?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, we did not see her.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Samuel, can I just come in here for some clarification.

MR SAMUEL: Yes, certainly.

ADV BOSMAN: At the time when you heard the screams, were you sort of in bed trying to sleep, or what was the position?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: We were not in bed, we were just sitting there, we wanted to hear what was happening.

ADV BOSMAN: And were you discussing this?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: We were drinking liquor and just discussing.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.
	Now when that body - after Ms Kubheka died, the body was removed from the room, where were you at that stage?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I was about to talk about that, so now you are asking me a question of which I was going to talk about, you're leading me.

CHAIRPERSON: Just tell us please.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: After some time, Botha told us that this woman is dead due to her attack, and then we were surprised that how can this happen so quickly.  And we could see that they did not know what to do, they would go in and out of that room.
	After some time Miyeza came.  When Miyeza arrived, he spoke with these white men, if I'm not mistaken.  When we were told that this woman had died, Simon went to the kombi.  If I can still remember, Dube and I were still there in the veranda and we saw that there's this person who was being wrapped in a blanket and her body was put in one car and then these two cars followed each other, Miyeza's car and the white man's  car.  After that I don't know what happened.

MR SAMUEL: There will be a suggestion made to you when you are cross-examined, that you could be confusing the issues, this incident with some other incident, will that be possible, or do you have a clear recollection of this incident?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Here in Durban this was my first operation, the second one was in Josini.  So there is no way that I could be confusing this with another operation, because Josini and Durban are this - I can't confuse those two.

MR SAMUEL: Were you paid for this operation, Mr Mbane?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, Dube and I were paid.

MR SAMUEL: How much were you all paid?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: R7 000.

MR SAMUEL: And who paid you?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Col Taylor gave us the money before we left, before we went back to Pretoria.

MR SAMUEL: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Samuel.  I think we'll do it by asking the applicants first, we'll keep the same order.
	Mr Visser, do you have any questions that you'd like to put?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Excuse, Mr Chairperson, I would like to know that can't finish up the details, because I'm being asked questions and I'm not finished with giving the details?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well we were told by Mr Samuel that you were finished.