Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I don't know why he said so, he is the only person who knows why he said
"A snake gives birth to a snake."
If I had come across a woman or a child I would not have attacked her because I knew well who was my target.

MR BERGER: And isn't Mr Mthembu correct when he says that women were killed and old people were killed simply because they were sleeping in Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I cannot say why he said so.

MR BERGER: You also went into Slovo Park you say, right?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you know that many many people were injured and killed in Slovo Park and there was great destruction in Slovo Park.  Are  you not responsible for any of that?

MR MAZIBUKO: To tell the truth, I did not enter Slovo Park, I was only moving along the street that separates the township and Slovo Park.  I was busy breaking the windows of the houses next to Slovo Park, I did not enter Slovo Park.

MR BERGER: Why not?

MR MAZIBUKO: I don't have any reason why I did not enter Slovo Park, it just happened.

MR BERGER: You were with Mr Beki Mkhize and he said that his group went into Slovo Park.

MR MAZIBUKO: Let me explain it this way.  Even if we were a group, there were people who were attacking on the other side and there were those who were attacking on the other side, maybe he entered Slovo Park with other people but I did not enter, I was busy on the other side of the street.

MR BERGER: Did you see anybody shooting or stabbing anyone?

MR MAZIBUKO: If I remember well I saw a certain man stabbing somebody with a spear.

MR BERGER: Who, who was stabbing?

MR MAZIBUKO: It's Mr Msizi.

MR BERGER: Where is he today?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I don't know where he is because I was arrested last year in January.  The last time I saw him he was staying at KwaMadala Hostel.

MR BERGER: What was his first name?

MR MAZIBUKO: I don't know his other name, I only know his surname, that is Msizi.

MR BERGER: Do you know what room he was staying in?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I don't know his room.

MR BERGER: And who was he stabbing?

MR MAZIBUKO: He stabbed a man who was trying to jump the fence.

MR BERGER: Where?

MR MAZIBUKO: I don't remember the name of the street but it was in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: And did you see anyone shooting?

MR MAZIBUKO: The only person that I remember, seeing him shooting, it was Mr Mkhize but I heard many shots but I could not see who was shooting but I could hear the gunshots.

MR BERGER: You were asked a question at page 112
"Did you see any person firing with firearms during this attack?"
And your answer at page 115 was:
"I saw a person in our group with the name "Doctor", who fired a shot in the direction of a person."
Two questions: 1) you didn't mention "Doctor" now.  2) you don't mention Mkhize in your answer", why is that?

MR MAZIBUKO: I was asked this question yesterday and I said that I saw Doctor shooting.  I even said that he had a pump action gun.

MR BERGER: Well why didn't you say that now when I asked you?  I think your counsel is showing you something.

MR MAZIBUKO: He's showing me that I said that.  He was indicating to me.

MR BERGER: Where is that, what page are you looking at?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is page 113 and the answer on page 115, and now he's showing me something on page 118.

MR BERGER: Oh I see, he's showing you at the top of page 118.

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.
MR BERGER
"Doctor was firing with a shotgun, a pump action shotgun."

MR MAZIBUKO: I say it is not a shotgun, it's a big gun.

MR BERGER: Oh a short gun?

MR MAZIBUKO: It's a big gun.

MR BERGER: Oh, sorry.

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I was referring to a pump gun.

MR BERGER: And Mkhize was firing an AK47?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you didn't see anybody get killed as a result?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I did not recognise anybody dying.  When Doctor was shooting, he was pointing at somebody.  It seemed as if that person was drunk but I could not see whether he fell, so I was unable to see if he was dead or not but he was drunk.

MR BERGER: You spent about an hour and a half in the township, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I do not want to commit myself as to how long we stayed in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: It was a long time, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: And during that time you moved around the township, up and down on a number of streets, am I correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: We were busy working in the township, we were doing many things.

MR BERGER: Yes.  And at no stage in that long time, moving all around the township did you see a single person injured or deceased?

MR MAZIBUKO: I saw many people being beaten but I cannot say whether they died or not.  Many people were attacked, others were trying to jump the fences, others were trying to fight back, others were falling, but I cannot say whether they died.

MR BERGER: None of them were lying on the ground?

MR MAZIBUKO: The one who was attacked by Msizi with a spear, he fell but I could not say whether he was dead or not.  The only thing that I saw, I saw him stabbing the person and I moved on.

MR BERGER: Why didn't you go and make sure that this man was dead?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I cannot tell you, I can't really say why I didn't go and make sure that he was dead, because I was also busy with my job of breaking the windows.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I've gone past eleven.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, shall we adjourn until 11H30.  We'll take an adjournment until 11H30.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mazibuko, may I remind you that you are still under oath.

MR MAZIBUKO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Yes, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: (Continued)  Thank you, Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: Sorry to interrupt, Chairperson.  One of the applicants, Mr Vincent Kanjele, he already testified and he wants to be excused for two hours to go for a work interview which he can only do now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he may be excused, yes.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Mazibuko, you persist with the denial that all the residents of Boipatong were targets of the attack, and as a result there is something that I still don't understand.  You confirmed pages 110 and 111 where you set out the political objective that was sought to be achieved by the attack on Boipatong.  And in paragraph 10(a), I want to read to you the first sentence and I'' translate from the Afrikaans, it says:
"The political objective which we wanted to achieve with the attack on Boipatong was to teach the predominantly ANC dominated and controlled Boipatong a lesson and more particularly to neutralise the Self Defence Units of the ANC."
Now put simply what that means is that your political objective was to neutralise the Self Defence Units, kill the Self Defence Units and teach the people of Boipatong a lesson.  Now what lesson did you intend to teach the people of Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: Self Defence Units were killing us, they were burning us, we were being burnt alive, we were being stabbed.  So in killing them they would know that if they kill one person they would also be killed.  If they had stopped killing us we wouldn't have attacked them, that wouldn't have happened in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Let's just get the facts ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just before we get those facts, do you confirm that you said that you were going to teach the residents of Boipatong a lesson?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I agree but by saying that I do not include the children and the women.  I was not referring to the parents.

CHAIRPERSON: Well how were you going to do that, were you going to do that by attacking the SDUs?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, we were going to attack the SDU members.