Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-02

MR VISSER: Why did Mr Motsamai tell you that the house belonged to City Mzuzwana, were you discussing your incidents with Mr Motsamai?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I showed him my statement.

MR VISSER: I see.  And did he show you his statement?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, I did.

MR VISSER: And did you compare notes between the two statements?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, he was not showing me that we should compare, he was just showing me his statement.

MR VISSER: For what purpose Mr Ngo?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Because I told him that I was asking for amnesty.

MR VISSER: Surely he knew that, you didn't have to show him a form to prove it to him?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He didn't know the contents of my application before I told him.

MR VISSER: Why should he have to know what the contents of your application was Mr Ngo?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He didn't know the contents of my application.  The reason is I told him and I was explaining to him, then it came to him that even the house whom we were together, which one we petrol bombed was not Makhubelo's house, it was City Mzuzwana's house.
	We didn't tell you then, because during that time you were a student, that is what he explained to me.

MR VISSER: I see.  Isn't it true that you were comparing notes Mr Ngo?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We were not comparing notes.  I was telling him what I was going to tell this Commission.

MR VISSER: And he was telling you what he was going to tell  the Commission?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was telling him on what reason I was going to mention his name.

MR VISSER: And was he telling you what he was going to tell the Commission?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He didn't tell me.

MR VISSER: I see.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I saw his statement.

MR VISSER: And while Mr Motsamai is now reading through your statement, he comes across I presume your evidence about Mr White Mohapi, not so?  He must have, because you showed him the statement.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I showed him his name on my statement, that I am going to talk about him.

MR VISSER: Yes, that is what I am talking about now.  Because you have implicated Mr Motsamai as a person who together with Mtyala and yourself inter alia, beat up Mr White Mohapi with crowbars and hammers, isn't that so?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, I mentioned those people.  Those are the people I was with during that incident.

MR VISSER: Did Mr Motsamai say anything about the fact that he was implicated by you in this attack on Mr White Mohapi, when you spoke to him here at the Commission?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He didn't say.

MR VISSER: He didn't say a word about it?  Well, you see, the strange thing Mr Ngo, is that Mr Motsamai has applied for a whole list of incidents but he never applied for any attack or assault or kidnap or anything concerning this incident, regarding Mr White Mohapi.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I don't know why.  I was coming to tell the Commission what I did, not what Motsamai did or what he wanted to tell or what he didn't want to tell.  I don't know those things.  I am coming to tell the Commission about my own activities.

MR VISSER: But if I were to put to Mr Motsamai that he was present when Mr White Mohapi was assaulted and he denies it, he would be lying, wouldn't he?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: As I have replied that I am coming to speak on my own behalf, whether he would deny or accept, that will be up to him.  I will not tell the Commission as whether he is lying or telling the truth.  I am just telling this Commission I did this with whom.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo, you told this Commission under oath, that Mr Motsamai and yourself amongst others, assaulted Mr White Mohapi with crowbars and hammers, am I right so far?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is so.

MR VISSER: If Mr Motsamai denied that he participated as far as you are concerned, he will be lying, isn't that so?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The true fact is that I verify before this Commission that he was present.  If he is going to deny that, he will know what he will be talking about.
	I am not the one who should tell this Commission whether he would say yes or no, or whether he would be lying, but I am just saying he was present.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: But according to you he would not be telling the truth?  If he were to come here and deny that he was involved, according to you he would not be telling the truth?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I would say that, because I was with him.

MR VISSER: I think perhaps the Commissioner has a clearer way of putting questions than I do Mr Chairman.
	If Lieutenant Shaw and Colonel Erasmus came to this Commission and told the Commission that they never gave you any instructions to kidnap or assault Mr White Mohapi, would they be telling the truth?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I wouldn't understand how they would not tell the truth, because those are the instructions which they have given me.  I received those instructions from them.

MR VISSER: Well, actually it is quite simple, I put it to you ... (intervention)

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: As I said about Motsamai, if they would come and deny like him, it will be the same incident that they will be telling a lie.

MR VISSER: I just want to simply put to you Mr Ngo, that Shaw and Erasmus and Mr Mtyala, will all of them deny that they had anything to do with either the kidnapping or any assault perpetrated on Mr White Mohapi at any time.  What do you say about that?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: They were present.

MR VISSER: Now, seeing that you are so certain about that, I am going to give you the opportunity to tell this Commission exactly everybody's name who was involved in this kidnapping and assault.
	We know that you told the Commission that Erasmus and Shaw gave instructions.  Am I right so far?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is so.

MR VISSER: We know that Mr Motsamai and you assaulted Mr White Mohapi, is that correct, four people so far?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is so.

MR VISSER: And you mentioned the name of Mr Mtyala.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is so.

MR VISSER: Was there any other policeman that you remember who participated in that attack?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Other than Cronje who was supervising what was happening, who didn't participate in the assault, he was only there to supervise what we were doing.

MR VISSER: Now, when did you happen to remember that Cronje was also involved?  When did that occur to your memory?  Just now, or earlier?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, the question is not fair, Cronje was mentioned in chief.

MR VISSER: Where Mr Chairman?

ADV MEMANI: In the evidence, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, Cronje has never been mentioned in connection with White Mohapi, unless I am terribly mistaken.  But Mr Chairman, the record will speak for itself, I don't want to waste your time.
	Let me go on.  Apart from Cronje, was there any other person that participated in this attack?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No other person.

MR VISSER: Now, I wish to refer you Mr Ngo, to bundle C, Section A, page 12.  Have you got that document in front of you?  It is the typed written document which you completed when you applied for legal assistance.
	It is typed page 5, the numbered page 12 and I want to specifically refer you to A(a) on that page.  Have you got it in front of you?  Mr Ngo, will you please reply to my questions.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, he is badgering the witness, the witness is still looking for the paragraph.

MR VISSER: Would you like to reply to the question, have you got the page in front of you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes.