Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-14

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: When we talk of removing things that belonged to an enemy, we are not referring to possessions like R2,00.  You should actually repossess things that we can count as possessions, and such possessions should be surrendered to your commander because as an APLA member, whatever you do is not necessarily yours or your action personally, but we are guided by the 15 points of attention which explained to us that whatever you do you do for the masses.  Whatever you remove from an enemy you should surrender to the commander.
	Therefore I do not believe that Basie Hladi was robbed of anything because if that was the case I would have received them.  Like in my unit there were six of us.  There was a commander, a commissar, a logistics officer.  Therefore a person couldn't just keep something to himself.  So, Basie Hladi was not robbed of anything.  He was just trying to blackmail me.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got ... (intervention)

MR LAX: Just one further question.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.

MR LAX: Just one comment, Mr Buthelezi.  Hladi's possessions couldn't have been given to you because you were arrested and your comrade escaped.  So, there wasn't time for that to happen, just to carry on with my colleague's question to you.  So in the light of that, your explanation of why he might not have been robbed by your comrade doesn't bear water.  Do you understand?  You didn't have an opportunity for him to report back to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo, re-examination?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: When this happened there was only two of us.  If maybe my colleague removed something I would have seen it.  That is why I am sure that he was not robbed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Buthelezi, is it your evidence that when you met you went to kill Basie Hladi, you did not manage to kill him because somebody who knew you came in.  Is that your evidence?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is my evidence.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And is it your evidence that you never came closer to him than that first incident when somebody you knew came in?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: I did not.  Can you please repeat the question?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.  My question, let me rephrase it.  At the time, your first incidence, when you went to kill him, you were close to him, to Basie Hladi, am I correct?  When you arrived at his home where he was drinking.

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was close to him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And before you can shoot him somebody came who knew you very well?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it your evidence, there's no other instance where you were very close to Basie Hladi other than that first incident, the first instance where somebody who knew you came in before you shot him?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Yes, there is no other, as I was unsuccessful.  I was never close to him after that.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.  Let me go to the - you told the Committee when you were asked by Mr Chairman about, if I'm correct, Mr Chairman, you said in court you were playing dice at the time when you were arrested.  Did you tell the court that?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct to say your reason for saying that you were playing dice, you wanted to exonerate yourself from the shooting?

INTERPRETER: We seem to have a problem.  One mike is not working.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the mike not working over there?  All right, just hold on.  Mr Mbandazayo, just a minute.  Let's see if we can sort out that technical difficulty.  They can just indicate if it's right.

MR LAX: Just speak in the booth.  We could hear you.  No, there's definitely a problem.

ADV SIGODI: That one is okay.

INTERPRETER: Can you hear me?  Okay.  I think we can proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, we seem to have solved the difficulty.  So, please do proceed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I was saying to you, you told the court that you were playing dice at the time when you were arrested.

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee, what was your reason to say that you were playing dice?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: I was trying to exonerate myself from the fact that I was shooting at the police or we were exchanging fire with the police.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct to say that you deny that you have had an exchange of gunfire with the police in court?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did deny that.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, you were asked by the Chairman about your guiding principle regarding the eliminating of the informer Basie Hladi.  You alleged that he was an informer.  Were you as a trained cadre, as you put it in the Committee, were you always expected that whenever you act you must get instructions from your commanders?  That is the members of the high command or your immediate superior or were you also expected to take initiative of your own?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: We received orders from the high command, but there was a time and you were told by the high command that there were instances where you'd be expected to take the initiative yourself.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And as a result of that initiative, that is the reason why you went to eliminate Basie Hladi.

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Yes, that was the reason why I went to kill Basie Hladi.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Buthelezi, was part of the reason why you acted against Mr Hladi to prevent the police from apprehending, from arresting you and your unit?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Can you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Was part of the reason why you decided to act against Mr Hladi to stop the police from arresting you and your unit members?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: What I was trying to run away from was even if I got arrested there would be nobody who will stand as a State witness.

CHAIRPERSON: And was the policy of the organisation that anybody who assisted the then regime in any way would be regarded as an enemy and would be a legitimate target for action?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you form the impression that Mr Hladi was going to assist the police to act against you and your members?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes, Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Just one quick follow up.  How would Hladi be able to be a State witness against you?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: I think that an eyewitness is required in court to come testify what he did indeed see.

MR LAX: Yes, but Hladi never saw you kill Mashamahite.  He had nothing to do with your killing of Mashamahite and it was that that he would have been a State witness for and it was that that you wanted to kill him for, according to your evidence.  How is that possible?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: The reason for killing Hladi was that he was in the company of the police and he would have been a State witness.

MR LAX: The question is, what would he have been a State witness to?

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: He would have testified about the death of the policeman.

MR LAX: But he never saw it and it's clear that he didn't see it and he had nothing to do with it.  So, maybe you killed the wrong man or you tried to kill the wrong man.

SHAKESPEARE BUTHELEZI: What I'm trying to explain is that we would have not suffered casualties in my units.  When he came with the police they stated it clearly that they were there in connection with the death of that policeman.  He was with the police when they came in connection with that matter.

MR LAX: But you heard his evidence in court and you know very well that he didn't know anything about Mashamahite's death.  He didn't witness it.  He wasn't a State witness in relation to that incident at all.  Correct?