Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MR RICHARD: On your evidence the deceased joined no earlier, and I'm asking you to confirm that, than August 1987 and no later than September 1987.  Now during that period August/September/October, that's the period we're talking about.

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I understand that.

MR RICHARD: And if I understand your evidence, you were perfectly aware that on a very regular basis the deceased would go into Johannesburg and not come back that night and would stay with people in Johannesburg -he was your friend.

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I knew about it.

MR RICHARD: Did you know the names of telephone numbers or addresses of houses that he stayed in Johannesburg?

MR TSHABALALA: No.

MR RICHARD: Did you have any telephone numbers where you could contact him in Johannesburg?

MR TSHABALALA: Except for the DPSC I did not have any others.

MR RICHARD: Did you know the name Joe Kawela?

MR TSHABALALA: Joe who?  I do not know whether you're referring to the same Joe, but I do know a certain person called Joe, because I do not know his surname.

MR RICHARD: Did he work at the DPSC office?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: That is the same Joe.  Now, is it correct that the accused was arrested on the 12th of October? - the deceased, I beg your pardon.

MR TSHABALALA: I know that he had been arrested in October 1987.

MR RICHARD: '87.  What do you know about it?

MR TSHABALALA: That he had been arrested and released on the same day.

MR RICHARD: Where do you say he was arrested?

MR TSHABALALA: If I'm not mistaken he was arrested in Zola.

MR RICHARD: In Zola?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Is that near, on the way between home and school?  Between his home and school.

MR TSHABALALA: I cannot say that with certainty because the house in which they were arrested is far from the way that they would normally take to school.

MR RICHARD: How did you learn about this arrest?

MR TSHABALALA: The people that he had been arrested with explained and he also mentioned later on that he had been arrested.

MR RICHARD: What did he say happened to him?

MR TSHABALALA: Please repeat the question.

MR RICHARD: What did he say happened to him?

MR TSHABALALA: He did not get into details, but as a person who had also been detained it was apparent, it was obvious that he experienced the same treatment that everybody else did when they were arrested.

MR RICHARD: Now you say "they", "the house they", who is the "they" that you speak of?

MR TSHABALALA: Those are the people I can refer to as members of the Sosco leadership at the time.

MR RICHARD: Do you remember their names? - you were a member of Sosco.

MR TSHABALALA: One of them is Pax, another is Libelo, there may be Vusi as well.  Those are just some of the names.

MR RICHARD: Now according to my instructions, what he reported, that on that date, 12 October 1987 he was detained on his way to school, those who detained him requested him to be an informer and offered him money, support and that his family would be better off.  Would you contradict that?

MR TSHABALALA: I cannot dispute it because I was not arrested with him.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Richard, let's put it this way.
	Is that one of things he told you when he reported that he had been detained and what had happened to him?  Did he tell you that his interrogators had tried to recruit him?

MR RICHARD: He said he had been interrogated, but he did not explain the details of what had been said to him or what he'd been questioned on.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that have been purely normal practice that the police tried to do these things?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, they normally did that.

CHAIRPERSON: They normally tried to get you to be an informer, told you that it would be much better for you, they would look after you and all that sort of thing?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now did Mr Dhlomo report to you that he was kicked and assaulted and that he was released the same day?

MR TSHABALALA: I did say that he did not go into details, but if a person tells you that he had been interrogated you would understand what he meant.

MR RICHARD: Now we know when the arrest happened, but when did Mr Dhlomo tell you about the arrest?

MR TSHABALALA: It's obvious that he told me after he'd been released.

MR RICHARD: One day afterwards, one week afterwards?

MR TSHABALALA: I cannot remember, but we did not see each other on the very same day that he was released.

MR RICHARD: So was it some days later?

MR TSHABALALA: It's possible.

MR RICHARD: Now at that stage, and as a result of that arrest, ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Sorry, can I just interpose for a minute?
	Where was this place he was telling you all this?

MR TSHABALALA: We were at one of my hide-outs.

ADV SANDI: And where was that hide-out?

MR TSHABALALA: It's difficult for me to remember because there were several, but I think it was at Emdeni.

ADV SANDI: Did he come to see you there at this hide-out?

MR TSHABALALA: I cannot remember how it happened because we used to meet in various ways.  Sometimes I would go to his home, sometimes he would come to my home or to my hide-out, but it is difficult to remember clearly how or what happened.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.
	Now after that arrest, according the deceased's mother, Sylvia Dhlomo Njeli, she made contact with the firm Ishmail Ayob and Associates and requested assistance in finding somewhere for the deceased to stay as it was no longer safe for him to be in Soweto even though he was not at that stage staying at home on a regular basis.  Did you receive any sort of intimation from the deceased, you were his close friend?

MR TSHABALALA: I cannot remember clearly, but I had my own hide-outs which I could share with him and he also had his own hide-outs as an activist at the time.

MR RICHARD: And some of his hide-outs were in the city centre, in and around Johannesburg, in the suburbs, not in Soweto.

MR TSHABALALA: I cannot confirm or say that with certainty.

MR RICHARD: Now at this stage, on your version of the date of his recruitment he had been a member of the cell for some two and a half months, which was not for long, August, September and 12 days, 14 days of October.

MR TSHABALALA: I will not commit myself to that time period, two and a half months, but at that time he was already a member of the cell.

MR RICHARD: Had he been trained at that stage?

MR TSHABALALA: I think so.

MR RICHARD: How much training had he received?

MR TSHABALALA: It is difficult to remember because that training does not resemble the training you receive at school where it is specified what you do on this day and that day.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but were you there when he was receiving training?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I would sometimes - I think I was present at all times.

MR RICHARD: At any stage during this period did you receive a report that he'd been arrested in possession of a handgun and a handgrenade?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I knew about it.  Please repeat the question, I may have responded to something ...

MR RICHARD: In and during the period October 1987, did you receive any reports that the deceased had been arrested while in possession of a firearm and a handgrenade?

MR TSHABALALA: I don't think so.

MR RICHARD: So the Sosco people certainly made no such report, the people that he was arrested with?

MR TSHABALALA: Please repeat that question.

MR RICHARD: You used the word "they", "they" were other Sosco people and none of them made such a report that you are aware of?

MR TSHABALALA: Are you referring to the incident when Sicelo was arrested with a Makarov pistol and a handgrenade?  Are you asking then that, did anybody inform me about that, amongst the people that he was arrested with?