Amnesty Hearings — Mabopane — 1998-08-06

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  It is our intention to call the fourth applicant who is Mr Makhura.  We had hoped that if we worked hard today we might be able to finish but we're left with, it's five to four now and we certainly won't finish with Mr Makhura this afternoon and I understand that Mr - I've forgotten the pronunciation of his name, Mokobojane will be here tomorrow as well.  I don't know whether it serves any purpose to begin with Mr Makhura now.

CHAIRPERSON: My concern Mr van den Berg, is that we would like to finish this matter.  We've lost a lot of time today, we started late.  I don't want to adjourn until tomorrow and then find we can't finish, because unfortunately tomorrow we will have to adjourn early because certain people have to catch aeroplanes etc.  Would it not be possible to get his evidence in chief, and then if we can start earlier tomorrow to ensure that we finish because we'd also, if possible, like to hear argument tomorrow as well before we adjourn.

MR VAN DEN BERG: That would be in order then.  We will call Mr Makhura.  Until what time would the Committee be comfortable with?

CHAIRPERSON: Let's see is we can reach the stage of at least his evidence in chief, but we'll see how it goes, it might go quicker than you imagine.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Makhura?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makhura, are  your full names Joseph Elias Makhura?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objection to taking the oath?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: (sworn states)

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Makhura will testify in Sesotho and he will be led by my friend Mr Lengane.

MR LENGANE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Makhura, just so that the Committee knows who is appearing before it, we'll go just quickly, briefly through your personal details.  It is true that you were borne in 1959 in Mamelodi just outside Pretoria?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: That is correct.

MR LENGANE: Thank you.  Just for the record I will repeat the question.
	Mr Makhura, you were born in 1959 in Mamelodi, is that correct?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: That is correct.

MR LENGANE: And as a student at secondary school you were a member of the Congress of South African Students, is that correct?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: That is correct.

MR LENGANE: And you left the country to join Umkhonto weSizwe in 1980, correct?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: That is correct.

MR LENGANE: At that stage you were in standard nine, is that also correct?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: That is correct.

MR LENGANE: Could you kindly tell the Committee what motivated you at that time as a student to leave the country?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: What influenced me to skip the country in 1980, the youth at that time was involved in criminal activities and they were becoming destructive and I then said you're better off if a person can go into exile so that you could come back and contribute better to the community.
	What influenced me or what made me to make a final decision to leave was in 1980 after Silverton Bank Seize after I saw that on that Friday or on a Saturday when I saw photos in the papers how people were killed.
	We in the community at that time as the youth, we started to be involved in criminal activities and then I said I would not be party to that criminal activity but I should contribute better in the community.

MR LENGANE: Mr Makhura, please briefly explain what the Silverton Bank Seize was, who it involved.

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: The Silverton Seize, when we read in the newspaper were members of MK who infiltrated the country and were pursued by the police and were forced to enter into the bank.  After that there was a shoot-out.
	As a youth being energetic and seeing their photos, as members of MK died as heroes to us.  Unlike we would be involved in criminal activities and we don't know what happened to life and nobody is going to know about you.
	We know about our fathers or soldiers who died at the Silverton Seize.

MR LENGANE: You were of course a victim of the crime that you described in 1978?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: We were at the stadium during athletics and on that day I was stabbed on my neck and as a youth there were chances that I would be involved in criminal activities and I might find myself landed in jail or killed.

MR LENGANE: Thank you Mr Makhura.  So you decided to leave the country and you did that in 1980, you went to Swaziland and that is where you joined Umkhonto weSizwe?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: That is correct Sir.

MR LENGANE: Later you were taken to undergo military training in Angola, is that correct?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: That's correct Sir.

MR LENGANE: In what were you trained?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: On our arrival in Angola in 1980, I undertook basic training which is a general course of handling the war material, the machine guns, the bombs,  generally all the weapons.  Thereafter I proceeded to Tanzania where I specialised with medico and in 1983, if I'm correct, there was a war between the MK and Unita which we used to call the eastern front.  I was deployed to take part in that war and as soon as we withdrew in that front in 1985 I was called back ...[intervention]

MR LENGANE: Sorry, just take it one step at a time Mr Makhura.  You were deployed on the eastern front and at a later stage you withdrew, what did you do, where did you go after withdrawing from the eastern front?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: The whole MK group that was operating in the MK were withdrawn and I went back to Luanda where I was a deployed as a Medico.

MR LENGANE: Did you receive any further military training after that?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes, it was in 1984 or '85, I undertook further military training.

MR LENGANE: Was this in Bango in Angola still?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes, it was in Bango in Angola.

MR LENGANE: What did that training entail?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: The training that I undertook was termed assassination course or elimination course.

MR LENGANE: At this stage did you meet any of your fellow applicants, in this training or immediately thereafter?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: When I arrived in Bango I met Jabu but I did not know that we were going to land in the same unit eventually, but the person that I knew was Rufus Pala very well and his name was Gekana who passed away here in Mabopane.

MR LENGANE: So you infiltrated eventually anyhow into South Africa to come and serve Umkhonto weSizwe and its operations, correct?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: That's correct Sir.

MR LENGANE: This was in 1986?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: I think I left Angola late 1985 if not '86 and that is when I joined Ting Ting Masango, Jabu Masina, Neo Potsane and Reginald Gekana, the late and thereafter Justin Bizana joined in as well.

MR LENGANE: Mr Makhura I would like you now to please take us through the incident of Mr Molope.  We have heard the evidence of the other applicants, that Mr Molope had been identified by you and them as a target to be eliminated, to use the words, could you just very briefly tell the Honourable Committee if you were a part of that and how it happened?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: On that particular day, it was on a Saturday morning, Ting Ting Masango came to me and said he saw Mr Molope in Beirut, he was with his lover at that time.  We left for Mamelodi on that same day where we met Mr Masina and Neo Potsane.  It was myself and Ting Ting and Justin Bizana.  We ...[indistinct] this issue of Brigadier Molope and that he's got to be assassinated and of which Jabu gave the final order for us to do that.

MR LENGANE: Did you understand Mr Makhura, why Mr Molope had to be killed?  Were you part of the decision and did you identify with the reasons?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: Yes, I was there when the decision was taken and I was in full support of it.

MR LENGANE: For you personally Mr Makhura, what was your objective, what was your motive?

JOSEPH ELIAS MAKHURA: On that particular day   ...[intervention]