Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-18

MR PRETORIUS: : Honourable member of the Chairman I think what I will do is I'm just going to put the line of the general line of what was the observed on the video at him and if he doesn't dispute it I am going to leave it at that, because then it is on record and it will be easy to argue it later.
	Mr Moolman I am just putting it to you that the general line of what happened during this video immediately prior to the camera zooming in on the people as they lay down on the corner of King George and de Villiers Street is the following.  Point one - we can clearly see the marchers on the corner of King George - at least on the corner of de Villiers and Wanderers Street one can clearly see from the video as well that the streets, from the corner, that is on the corner from King George and de Villiers Street, it's clear there is no marchers there, there is no policemen there, there is no army personnel there everybody is clear.  So in other words everybody dispersed.  There is no one except the people that was now lying down on the corner of King George and de Villiers.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is does he does he remember that.

MR PRETORIUS: : Yes.

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I was shown a video and I saw Wanderers Street but what happened in Wanderers Street when watching that video I do not remember because Wanderers Street appeared many a times on that video.

MR PRETORIUS: : The camera then moved on to this exact corner of King George and de Villiers Street.  I may just point out that I am not saying from which direction it was fired but one can at that stage clearly hear a shot that is fired and one can see that the marchers on the corner of de Villiers and Wanderers Street ducked and take shelter behind buildings.

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I did not hear a question there.

MR TIPP: Did you see that in the video what he's just described to you.  He is asking you whether you remember seeing that.  In other words a shot, did you hear a shot being fired and did you see the people on the video dive and take cover?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: There was a gunshot on the video that I looked on that, that I watched on that day but from where I can't remember.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you saying Mr Moolman that there was a gunshot coming from the corner de Villiers and King George Street?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I said when a video was shown in the court I heard the sound of a gun but I do not remember from which direction.

MR PRETORIUS: : Thereafter the video zooms in on the people on the corner of King George and de Villiers Street and it's clear that there's no one there except the witness Mr Von Eggerdy who is trying to assist the injured and the death.

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: Yes the video showed people, dead people.  Where they were I would not be in a position to tell.  I do not remember.

MR PRETORIUS: : And it's only after some period of time has lapsed with only Mr Von Eggerdy on the video that one sees policemen or other people running to the corner to assist the injured or dead people there.  Do you recall that?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I do not remember.

MR PRETORIUS: : And lastly it is only sometime after that, that some of the marchers returned to the particular corner to watch what was going on insofar as to what the injured and etcetera is concerned.  Do you recall that?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I saw the video but I would not be in a position to explain and recall what I saw on that video.

MR PRETORIUS: : Mr Chairman I am then just going to place the following observation of Judge Nugent on record and ask this witness whether he differs from it.  It appears from page 3506 of the record.  Approximately line 6.
"Now what the advocate is saying is this if you look on the video it seems to be very shortly after the shooting had taken place and you can see that the crowd have dispersed."
	I will leave it at that and the rest concerns the shot I do not want to debate the shot as such now.  Do you agree with that Sir?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: : Mr Moolman why did you run from the corner of King George and de Villiers Street to the middle of the block, approximately, just after the initial shooting took place.  Why did you run to that position secondly?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I do not understand your question Sir?

MR PRETORIUS: : What was the purpose of you running from the position from the corner of King George and de Villiers Street to a position in the middle of the particular block on the parapet?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: It would be difficult to shoot as a group.

MR PRETORIUS: : Do I understand you correctly is the reason why you ran was to get into a better position to fire at the crowd?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: : After the whole incident was all over did you look over the parapet to see where the position where the injured and wounded were lying on the ground?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: That is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: : Looking from the position from where you shot you would've been in a position where they - that is those people that were lying there on the corner of King George and de Villiers Street were, if they were running towards Shell House would've still been running towards where you were positioned halfway in the block?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: From my position yes it was possible.

MR PRETORIUS: : I put it to you therefore Sir that if you were firing at people attacking Shell House you would've shot at them and you would have struck them in the front and not in the back?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: According to the ballistics which I do not dispute people were shot at the back but when I shot I do not remember seeing people turning their backs on me.  Well I do not dispute that well they were shot at the back.

MR PRETORIUS: : Do you agree then that if the ballistics are correct, and I just want to place it to you on record so you do understand it again, four people were killed with shotguns on the corner of King George and de Villiers Street.  All four of them had been shot in the back.  Do you understand that?

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: I already alluded to fact I do not stand against the ballistic evidence.

MR PRETORIUS: : If that is the case and you accept it, I put it to you that the people must have already been running away from Shell House before you shot?

CHAIRPERSON: They may have momentarily turned.  Not necessarily running away.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman it is just very unlikely that all four of them had momentarily turned.

CHAIRPERSON: How many did?

MR PRETORIUS: : Well Mr Chairman according to the evidence that of Mr Dias, that I have already placed on record through the previous witness, all of them immediately started running away, and that is what I will also place on record for this witness to reply to.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Moolman Mr De Silva Dias, one of the witnesses who was in the fish and chips shop, the second shop from the corner of King George and de Villiers Street testified to the following.

MR PRETORIUS: "What did you see happen immediately the shooting the first shots were fired?

WITNESS:  There was chaos and people just went down towards the floor".

MR PRETORIUS: He there refers to the marchers.

MR PRETORIUS: "Do I understand then that as the first shots were fired people fell to the ground and fled?"

MR PRETORIUS: And his reply is "Yes".

MR PRETORIUS: I put it to you that his observations are quite correct.  That what actually happened that the guards started shooting first at the people, the marchers that is; they turned around and fled and they were then shot at whilst they were busy fleeing.

STEPHEN MAROLE MOOLMAN: My real collection does not provide me with any scene of a person turning away when I started shooting.

MR LAX: Reference to Mr Dias' evidence at that point please.