Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR PIGOU: Thank you. Mr Coetzee were you aware of the decision referred to in Mr Potgieter's statement
"The decision was taken by Mr von Leerus, we believe some time in early 1987 or perhaps it was late 1986 that there was to be a tactical change in pursuing investigations relating to Mrs Mandela. That a collated docket will be compiled with a view to a possible future prosecution as opposed to pursuing individual prosecution on the basis of using evidence of accomplices and that it was preferred by the Attorney General to pursue prosecutions against those accomplices"
Mr Coetzee were you aware of that decision, that tactical change?

INTERPRETER: Mr Coetzee replies, yes he was aware but he should qualify at least in that sense.  He can't remember the year. He remembers specifically that it was about an allegation against one Morgan. If he remembers correctly it was her chauffeur. He was involved, the case was investigated and they were of the opinion that there was a prima facie  case against her.

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Colonel Potgieter and myself had a long discussion with Mr von Leerus and he did not want to give in, once again not a wrong reflection on him,  understand his approach. It was about carefulness with regard to - arising from that conversation, I don't want to link it to that but arising from that, not necessarily immediately, there was a decision at a stage not - to consolidate all our information against her as it were and to gather all that information.
 Mr von Leerus' decision there, I can't remember that he said such a thing openly, explicitly but for me the golden thread was that he wanted us to have specific and full evidence against her otherwise he would not act against her.

MR PIGOU: Would you be able to confirm whether the case that you're referring to, where the prima facie evidence was produced was the case of the Makunda brothers in May 1987, who were allegedly beaten and mutilated in the backrooms of Mrs Mandela's house and according to their statements they place Mrs Mandela at the scene before or during - I think it was before the assaults actually took place and that they had been threatened by her. Would you remember whether it was that particular case because we know Mr Morgan was prosecuted in that particular case?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: No, that was a charge under the Internal Security Act, I can't identify him. I think it was a charge against Morgan under the Internal Security Act.

MR PIGOU: Okay, thank you.  Again both to Mr Coetzee, Mr Nienaber, would it be accurate to say that great care would have to be taken concerning matters and investigations involving Mrs Mandela? These were issues - she was a subject of great sensitivity.

INTERPRETER: (Both gentlemen agree)

MR PIGOU: Could you tell us, what instructions did you receive from head office with regards to dealing with Mrs Mandela?

MR NIENABER: Me, personally I got no instructions. My instructions to my staff and I don't make excuses for this, that was for the whole staff, was that they should please withhold themselves, refrain from just going to Mrs Mandela's places whenever they felt like it or for any nonsense. If they had any action there should at least be a senior person who could stand his ground and not individually.  They had to organise it, it had to be right.
 They would have to be certain of their case. That went for the three years that I was there. That was a decision the two of us took, I want to say management took And that we passed on to our staff.

INTERPRETER: (I agree with that the other gentleman says.)

MR PIGOU: Thank you Mr Nienaber.
 So, Mr Coetzee, it would be fair to then that the manner in which you at the Security Branch, talking about a collective now, the manner in which Mrs Mandela's issues were dealt with was different to the way other matters were dealt with in terms of Security Branch investigations and activities? Would that be correct, would that be fair to say that? There was a qualitative difference in the way you handled things?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Yes and no. It's a bit of a contradiction in my answer. It actually was - that went for any high profile person, but especially for Mrs Mandela. I actually want to add to that, add to previous testimonies and the same goes I think for my colleague, Colonel de Kock who tried to tell the Commission that Mrs Mandela was a step above, a cut above the general. She was that, she is that and I think she will be that for a long time.

MR PIGOU: Thank you.  During the in-camera testimony of Mrs Mandela September, I believe it was last year, she said - and we were referring around issues of the period that we looking at okay, she said that her house was quote, "like a police station." She says there were frequent raids and harassments and etc. Now, I don't know if you had a chance to read what she said in her in camera testimony because I believe your attorneys were given a copy of that last year. Would you say that her description of what happened is an accurate one?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: No, I would say that was a bit conceited but again, or a bit arrogant but I would say that it's not strange that she said that.

INTERPRETER: (The other gentleman says: I don't think it was as bad as she said.)

MR PIGOU: Thank you.  Mr Coetzee, did you take a direct interest in investigations involving Mrs Mandela?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Yes, certainly. I would like to say immediately that I tried in all these cases, I tried to support our members, our colleagues.

MR PIGOU: Did Mr Potgieter from the Investigation Unit, and Mr Pretorius from the Intelligence Unit report to you on either investigations or intelligence reports received concerning Mrs Mandela?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: You ask quite in general I assume? I can't say no and I can't say yes. I don't know exactly what you are aiming at. Perhaps I can just explain how the activities were. the operations functioned. Every morning, every day after seven 'o clock, never later than that, never later than seven thirty, there would be an officers' meeting in my office and all information there important and interesting, information of interest was there exchanged by the unit heads. Each Friday all the officers met with them. So there would have been very little, if any information which came in and which wasn't exchanged via that office. And that's as far as I can explain.

MR PIGOU: Okay.  Now, were there specific briefings by Mr Potgieter on investigations into Mrs Mandela, the so-called, well let's say the compilation docket investigation that was being conducted from some time in 1987 we believe it was. Did you get specific briefings on the progress in those investigations?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: I would say continually yes.

MR PIGOU: Thank you.  Where you aware of the tension that had been created in the Soweto community concerning the Mandela United Football Club during your tenor as the divisional head there?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: No I do not want to say, I would not say that there, that the club - I didn't want to say that they ruled the roost but there were such insinuations but I would say that it was not true. That it was known that they kept themselves busy with illegitimate acts and to a large extent intimidation of people especially in their immediate vicinity, I think that's general knowledge.

MR PIGOU: Did you take a specific interest in the possibilities or any information that may have come across your desk or reported to you that the Mandela United Football Club was being used as a recruiting ground for Umkhonto we Sizwe?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: No. I would go against my conscience if I said yes.