Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-24

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Every vehicle that was pulled over was searched thoroughly by my men. And I tried to do most of the questioning because I used to be an Intelligence Officer along with Deon Martin we did the questioning. Namely where do they come from, where are they going and most importantly; to which political party were they affiliated? It was important for me to find this target group.
	I wish to refer you back to Phase 1 and you would see there that a guerilla fighter attacks even if it is only one person that he kills for the night. Or if he wins a small portion it is a victory for a guerilla fighter. And that is what I wanted to identify with my questions.

UNKNOWN: And you speak of several vehicles. Those vehicles, why did you tell them to leave instead of doing anything to them?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Not one of these persons whether they were or not but none of them admitted that they were affiliated to the ANC/SACP Alliance except for some of them were Inkatha members. And amongst others there were Tswana people who said that they had nothing to do with politics. Other people just said that they did not know anything of the politic.

UNKNOWN: Please continue, what happened that evening?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That evening the last 2 vehicles that we pulled over. Myself and Deon Martin drove in the direction of Ventersdorp. It was getting late. It must have been around midnight. We were approximately 8 to 10 kilometres away from the roadblock when we saw the lights of a vehicle approaching. And the closer we got to them we saw it was 2 vehicles and it was clear to us that they were following each other, they were together. Both vehicles were close to each other. Both vehicles had black persons inside the vehicles. We passed them, we turned around and we passed them again and in front was a Toyota Cressida and behind that was the Honda Ballade. We passed them, went over the hill, it had a slight curve in the road and the lights of the Mercedes was flicked. And they switched on the blue light at the roadblock.
	We had already stopped at the roadblock when these 2 vehicles arrived. When they came over the small hill and saw the blue light I knew from where the lights could be seen, it was approximately 200 to 300 metres away, the 2 vehicles stopped. My men waited in anticipation, we could hear the doors open and close. We were warned by Deon Martin to take note whether or not people were being dropped off or whether something was being thrown out of the vehicle. 
	After a short while, I cannot say exactly how long probably approximately 2 to 3 minutes, the vehicles started moving again. When they stopped at us the Honda Ballade was in front and the Toyota Cressida was behind the Honda this time. We ordered the passengers to get out. One of the drivers did not want to get out. I hit the side of his windshield with my tomphar(?).   He saw that I was very serious and he climbed out. We made them all stand in a line on a small embankment on the side of the road and then we made them sit down on that. 
	The men had their instructions. They knew exactly what to do. They searched the vehicles and looked for the necessary weapons and ammunition for which they had been asked. Deon Martin and I asked questions to the people sitting on the side. I was moving behind them with the tomphar(?). Deon Martin, who was the Commandant at that point posed the question and when I was not satisfied with an answer I used my tomphar to bump the person who had been asked the question or I hit him with the tomphar(?).  Once again I would like to say that these blows were not intended to kill. That was not the point. I had to determine firstly whether or not they were part of the target group. Questions were asked and they answered favourably that they were members of the ANC/SACP Alliance.

UNKNOWN: And then?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I moved passed the men who were busy searching the vehicles. During the course of things I asked whether they had found anything but no weapons had been found. I said that they should stand closer and that this was the "real Macoy," that these were ANC people. ...

UNKNOWN: ... Before you went over to the deed that they should go and look whether something had been discarded?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes that is correct. We were concerned regarding the situation when the vehicles had stopped before. I think I, myself asked Callie Meiring and Andre Visser to take one of the accused and take them to the place where they had stopped and determine what had been dropped off or whether they had simply climbed out. When they came back they reported negatively. They spoke about a bag with melted ice. But the problem was that it was open plains and it was dark and one