Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-24

MR DRAHT: Sorry Mr Ndlovu, do I understand you correctly, and identification parade was held?

CHAIRPERSON: In a Hippo?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, they were right inside the Hippo.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's call it some sort of pointing out, but it's not an identification parade.

MR DRAHT: As it pleases Mr Chair.

MR NDLOVU: I would not know, I'm just explaining what happened.

MR LAX: Who was pointing out?  Who was nodding their heads and shaking their heads?  Who were those people?

MR NDLOVU: We could not see them as to who they were.  But one could make out from outside that there were people inside the Hippo.  Because when this one soldier took you to the Hippo he would place you near the light and make you face the light, and he would at the same time look at the person who was sitting inside the Hippo, and from whatever response that came a decision was made as to which side the person would have to be taken.  That is what happened.  And I was among those who were sent to the side after the head was nodded.  And we were rounded up until we were 21.  And we were made to sit down yet again and the soldiers came to us with something that looked like bottles, and something that looked like sticks.  They looked like ballpoint pens.  They gave us these things, and they made us write our names.  And after that we went to Morningside travelling in that very same vehicle.  That is how I was arrested.

MR DRAHT: Mr Ndlovu did the police take any tests from your hands?  Did they conduct any tests on your hands?

MR NDLOVU: I think if I still remember very well they did that once we arrived at Morningside police station.

MR DRAHT: Mr Ndlovu can you remember how many people was in the ANC group on that day?

CHAIRPERSON: Approximately.

MR NDLOVU: They could have been 500.

MR DRAHT: Was it males or females?

MR NDLOVU: I am referring here to, there were females as well, but not the same number as the males.  I indicated earlier on that the females were standing alone on the side and the males were standing in the street, the main street that was the entry point to our area.

MR DRAHT: And how many people was approximately in the IFP group?

MR NDLOVU: We could have been 100.

MR DRAHT: Mr Ndlovu do you regret what happened that day?

MR NDLOVU: My Lord, I regret quite deeply about what happened on that day.  There are things that I can forget but this one is still very far from being forgotten.  It really hurt us.

MR DRAHT: Do you think it is possible that people can live peacefully together in the future even if they are from different political backgrounds?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, my Lord.  I think so.  It is also my wish to see us living together even 'though we belong to different political parties.

MR DRAHT: Has any political leader in the IFP structure gave instructions to you to commit these acts against the ANC?

MR NDLOVU: No, there was no instruction to that effect from any leader from Zevenfontein.  As I have explained that this is something happened and there was no explanation.  Nobody expected such a thing to happen.

MR DRAHT: But still all the IFP people group together.

INTERPRETER: Chairperson may the speaker please repeat the question.

MR DRAHT: But still on that day the IFP people made a group together, without instructions from the leaders?

MR NDLOVU: Yes, I am certain about that even 'though I would not have knowledge.  Like myself for example, I was a member of the IFP.  There is no one leader of mine who ordered that I should go and fight.  I only realised and concluded on seeing what was happening that this was war.

MR DRAHT: Mr Ndlovu, my last question.  When we started you said that you were applying for amnesty for hurting people.  Are you also applying for amnesty now for the act you were found guilty of?

MR NDLOVU: That is correct my Lord.

MR DRAHT: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DRAHT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Draht.  Mr Claassen do you have any questions to ask this witness?

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair I've got no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cachalia do you have any questions to ask the witness?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Ndlovu, you were with your co-accused at Zonderwater Prison in Cullinan.  Is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: May you please repeat your question.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Were you with your co-accused ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: May the speaker be audible.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cachalia if you just project a little you won't have to move that very much.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Ndlovu you were there at Zonderwater Prison in Cullinan together with some of your co-accused.

CHAIRPERSON: When?  What are you referring to?  When is this?

AZHAR CACHALIA: At the time when he made the statement.  At the time when you made the application for amnesty.

MR NDLOVU: Yes I was with them, my co-accused in this case, and some others as well, IFP members that is, who were not my co-accused necessarily, and they had joined us to fill in this application.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And you say that there was a Mr Msizi and a Mr Claassen.  Who is Mr Msizi please?

MR NDLOVU: He is one IFP member who works at parliament.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And Mr Claassen?

MR NDLOVU: He is here.

AZHAR CACHALIA: That is the attorney Mr D Claassen sitting?

CHAIRPERSON: He's actually an advocate, Mr Cachalia.

MR CLAASSEN: Pardon me, I am an attorney.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon.  I understood from Nelspruit that you were from the bar.  I beg your pardon.

MR CLAASSEN: No, no I'm actually an attorney.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you.  That is the person that we are referring to, is that right?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Is the form filled in in his handwriting or Mr Msizi's handwriting?

MR DRAHT: Mr Chairperson the witness definitely cannot answer that question.  He doesn't know that.

MR LAX: How do you know he doesn't know?  Let him say that.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't he present when it was written?

MR NDLOVU: With regards to the writing I am not able to tell whether it is Msizi's or Mr Claassen's handwriting.  I don't remember quite clearly, but what I know or remember rather is that we were telling Msizi, and Mr Claassen will write.  So that I am not sure as to whether it is his handwriting or not.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Alright perhaps we should just get a little more detail on this and I'm sorry that we need to go into the matter.  You were called and you were told that they were going to make an application for your amnesty.  Is that correct?

MR NDLOVU: I was not called at all to be told that I have to apply for amnesty, but what I know is that I was called and when I got there they told me right there that I will be filling the amnesty application form and this is what I should do.

AZHAR CACHALIA: What was it that you should do please tell me?

MR NDLOVU: They explained that I would have to apply for amnesty from the TRC Committee, and explain everything that happened at the area where we were residing.  And they also told me that I should not lie because the TRC does not take any lies and I had to write the truth and the truth only.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And did you, was a, was an interpreter present?

MR NDLOVU: I thought I had explained earlier on that Mr Claassen was together with Mr Msizi.  Msizi was the one who was interpreting for us.

AZHAR CACHALIA: So Mr Msizi acted as an interpreter, and you told him the truth?

MR NDLOVU: Yes that is true.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And that is the truth that you presumably have told the Committee today?

MR NDLOVU: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And that was translated and written down.  My apologies sir.  My apologies.  May I just switch it off? (Referring to cell phone). Sorry.  You had, just to go back, you say that you had told Mr Msizi what you have told the Committee today and you have presumably been told by Mr Draht what is in your application form.

MR NDLOVU: Yes.