Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-29

MR BERGER: You say that, in 8.2, towards the bottom of that paragraph
"We were under instruction- sometimes we were given instructions from Special Operations command to provide the unit with certain material.  On other occasions, the unit would advise us of their specific requirements.  We were under instructions to give the unit any of their basic requirements."
Where did your instructions come from?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: My immediate Commander was comrade Rashid, therefore I would get my instructions from comrade Rashid.

MR BERGER: You've heard comrade Rashid's evidence on your activities, not only in relation to comrade Gordon and comrade Robert, but in respect of other cadres as well, do you confirm that evidence?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Yes, I confirm that.

MR BERGER: As far as the operation which we now know was aimed at the Why Not bar, were you present when comrade Robert and comrade - and the other comrades, not comrade Gordon, because he wasn't there, when comrade Robert was given the material, when the material was packed into his vehicle?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: No, I was not present.  I knew that he was coming but unfortunately I got arrested by Botswana police, therefore I was not present, I did not witness that.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Berger.  Mr Dehal, do you have any questions you would like to put?

MR DEHAL: I do thank you.

MR DEHAL: Mr Dumakude, you have already testified in response to your advocate's question, that you heard comrade Rashid's testimony.  I ask you simply this, do you confirm your support of Mr McBride's application for amnesty as indeed comrade Rashid did?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: And just briefly further, do you recall before Easter 1986, having met with comrade McBride outside South Africa when a discussion of possible targets took place, in particular the target of a bar that was frequented by Security Personnel?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: First of all, I would like to get some clarification when you say outside South Africa.  Where?

MR DEHAL: In Botswana.

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Will you please repeat the question, Sir?

MR DEHAL: Sorry, in Botswana and before Easter 1986, do you recall having had a discussion with comrade McBride on a possible target namely, or rather in particular a bar frequented by Security personnel as being the target and Gordon Webster was present at this discussion?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: The discussion about the possible targets, we used to do that everyday because that is how we used to encourage the comrades who were coming in, but if you become more specific about a certain target, I cannot remember that, we would not be told about the target.  It was not for us to inquire about the targets, but we had to discuss generally about the targets.  We would discuss with anyone who was under our control.

MR DEHAL: Mr Dumakude, Mr McBride agrees with that, but he says that in addition, there was much discussion about a number of bars, or places frequented by Security personnel, not in particular the Why Not bar or the Magoo's Bar.  No place by name, but reference was made to a bar frequented by Security personnel.  Would you recall that as being an additional aspect discussed?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: I cannot dispute that, as I'm saying we used to discuss about a lot of issues.  Perhaps it was also in our discussion, but I cannot say for sure, because we were not talking about the specific targets that the units were supposed to attack.  It could have been possible that he did talk to me about his target that he was about to attack, but I never discussed with him a specific target that he was going to attack.

MR DEHAL: Did you ever discuss any specific targets with comrade Gordon Webster?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: As I've said, this unit was the unit that I used to work with per instruction from comrade Rashid.  For me, in this unit, was to assist as instructed by comrade Rashid.  I do not remember discussing anything about specific targets.

MR DEHAL: Was any training given in the construction of a car bomb, by you to either comrade McBride or comrade Webster?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: I cannot remember exactly, but what I can recall, I did train them on how to use the devices of the car bomb.

MR DEHAL: Generally when you worked with comrade Robert, did you regard him as a disciplined cadre?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Yes, that unit was one of the disciplined units.

MR DEHAL: And likewise your view of comrade Gordon Webster?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Yes, that is correct, as I've said the whole unit was very disciplined.  They were operating on a higher discipline.

MR DEHAL: And I take it you would agree that both comrade Robert and comrade Webster, in your view, were committed to the struggle, as you understood the struggle to be?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Yes, I agree.

MR DEHAL: Chair do you mind bearing with me?  Sorry.  And finally Mr Dumakude, I see that in your evidence, you have already agreed that you trained comrade Robert McBride in political and military matters and additionally in the making of car bombs, do you agree with that?

CHAIRPERSON: I think he said - you asked him specifically about car bombs and he said:  "I can't recall if I trained him in the making of car bombs, but I did train him on how to use the devices of a car bomb."

MR DEHAL: Thank you very much.   Now, sorry, Mr Dumakude, you now understand, you now know, sorry, precisely or more or less what happened at the Why Not place, the bomb that exploded there, the people that were killed, the number of persons that were injured, etc.  Would you say that this accorded with your understanding of what Mr McBride was required to do with that bomb, with that car bomb?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Will you please repeat the question Sir?

MR DEHAL: The Why Not bomb is something you are now familiar with.  You certainly did not know of it, on your evidence as a target when you dealt with Mr McBride in Botswana.  You educated Mr McBride in military and political aspects.  Would you agree that the Why Not bomb accords with your education of Mr McBride?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Yes, I agree.

MR DEHAL: I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DEHAL

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Kooverjee, do you have any questions?  Sorry, have you finished, Mr Dehal?

MR DEHAL: Yes, certainly, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Kooverjee, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the witness?

MS KOOVERJEE: None, thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS KOOVERJEE

MR RICHARD: I would believe it's an opportune moment to adjourn.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I see it's 4 o'clock.  Yes, we'll adjourn until tomorrow morning, half past 9, when we'll proceed.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS