Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I did not make any claim towards the South African Police.

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon, could you just tell me whether you made any statement to the Human Rights Violations Committee?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes I made to the World International Red Cross...[intervention]

MR MALAN: You're misunderstanding me, you know the Human Rights Violations Committee of the TRC for those who experienced gross violations of human rights during this period and this is in reference to your condition and your injuries, you would qualify for compensation and for reparation as well as aid.  Have you made any such statement to any office or person within the TRC?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: A statement was issued to the TRC.  It was approved, I do have a number but I'm not certain of what that exact number is that was allocated to me.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Kloppers, it's not clear to me what happened at the Order meeting, who was in control of this meeting?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: General Japie Oelofse.

ADV BOSMAN: At that stage you were Chief Commander, is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.

ADV BOSMAN: How many other Chief Commanders were at that meeting?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I was the only one there.

ADV BOSMAN: Who were the persons who received from General Oelofse instructions?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: These were all Colonels and Brigadiers.

ADV BOSMAN: Could you indicate how many of them were there?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: There were approximately twenty persons at this meeting.

ADV BOSMAN: And how many regions were represented at this meeting?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It's difficult to answer.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you guess?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I would say approximately fifteen.

ADV BOSMAN: In other words you are telling us that General Oelofse was in control of 15 regions?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No, much more.  There was the Witwatersrand area.

ADV BOSMAN: Why would he then have representatives of all the regions?  It was such an important meeting that he would say here that there would be a country wide revolution?  Wouldn't you think that there would be more?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: If I speak of regions then I speak of area, persons from Krugersdorp, Roodepoort were there, Randfontein,
myself and on the East Rand, from the East Rand side there was one Mr J.J. Veldman and according to me all the areas were represented.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Dreyer said in his cross-examination, spoke of military precision but wasn't there any strategic planning, how this revolution would occur?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is just the crux of the matter, Mr Chairperson, every person there was individually seen by General Oelofse.  He saw them individually, I do not know what the other person's instruction was or if they did indeed receive instructions?

ADV BOSMAN: But is this in line with military action that they could not trust each other with - in regard with the planning?  Physically these areas were so close to each other?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes these areas were close to each other but we had the problem that secret instructions came about and we had this problem there and that is why we did it in total secrecy, it was not strange to me.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Kloppers, just for arguments sake, let's say Randfontein at this Radora Crossing - acted there and you do not know what the other persons did and they also decided to act along the same line.  Would it not have caused any confusion?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No, that is why I chose the Radora Crossing, the Radora Crossing was close to the Krugersdorp area and it did not include our area and Ventersdorp was far from there, it was a safe area to have a roadblock.

ADV BOSMAN: And afterwards did you speak or have contact with any of the other persons that were there?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.

ADV BOSMAN: And did you have discussions within regard with this incident?  Did you share opinions as to what instruction was given?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes we discussed that it was strange that the revolution did not initially begin that evening.

ADV BOSMAN: Now did they not tell you why they did not do it?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: There were just two persons who said that they did not have the necessary people to comply with the instruction.  This was Mr Joe van Wyk.

ADV BOSMAN: From which area?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: From Johannesburg and I think Mr Falconer.

ADV BOSMAN: From which area?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I'm not sure.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you not expect that in Johannesburg it was easier to get people?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes there were many people - it was strange to me as I thought that they were prepared to go to work.

ADV BOSMAN: So they could, these persons Mr Falconer and Mr van Wyk, could they be able to say in front of this Committee that the discussion was there to - as to the start of the revolution?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I'm sure they could.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

ADV SIGODI: MR Kloppers, I'll just ask you the question which I asked one of the applicants yesterday.
	If you had stopped a motor vehicle and there were ANC people and IFP people, what would you have done?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: If I had stopped the vehicle where ANC persons and IFP persons were in, I would have divided the two groups and I would have shot the ANC persons.

ADV SIGODI: The reason why I'm asking this is because I'm concerned about the child who is nine years old and the child who was thirteen years old.  Did they themselves say that they were ANC people?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I can just say what I've said previously that this thirteen year old person looked like to me like a grown up person and I did not see any nine year old person at the scene.

ADV SIGODI: Did the thirteen year old child say that he was an ANC member?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: All the persons that sat in front of me confirmed that they were members of the ANC SACP Alliance.

ADV SIGODI: No, I'm being specific, I'm asking about the thirteen year old child.  Or can you not remember?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Mr Chairperson I can remember correctly and as I have said specifically, if I have to be specific, I can say again I cannot remember how that there was a thirteen year old person.  All of them were grown ups that were there.

ADV SIGODI: The other question...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the real import of the question is - if your version throughout is that all the people who were there said that they were ANC members and amongst them it turns out there was a thirteen year old and a nine year old, the implication of what you're saying is that even the thirteen year old and the nine year said he was ANC?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is not what I said Mr Chairperson, I said that the thirteen year old person that they said was there, he looked grown up to me, he looked exactly as the other grown up persons that were there, I did not see any nine year old child.

CHAIRPERSON: So your version is that every human being who was there said he was ANC?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: All the persons who sat there and were questioned answered positively to the question that they were ANC members.
ADV. SIGODI: Did the thirteen year old or these people say that they were ANC before or after being hit with a baton?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I've said in two instances I prodded them with the baton, I did not assault all of the people and along the way they must have seen what had happened to the persons who did not want to answer or received the blow and when I stood behind them they answered directly to Mr Martin that they were ANC members.