Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-22

MR TIPP: Let me try and clarify it.  Mr Ngobese, is it clear to you what that photograph represents?  That there are concrete blocks right across King George Street at the point where it would join Plein Street?

MR NGOBESE: I don't recognise it, I think we never even got to Plein Street.

MR TIPP: Now at the part of King George Street where it intersects with de Villiers Street, there were similar concrete blocks, they were positioned at the southern part of the de Villiers Street intersection, in other words as you moved down from Noord Street in King Street you would cross over de Villiers Street and then reach those concrete barricades in King George Street, did you follow that?

MR NGOBESE: If the bricks were further down I couldn't have seen them because I was moving a bit further up the street.

MR TIPP: They were right at the intersection with de Villiers Street and I've explained to you that it was exactly the same as in the photograph except that two of those blocks had been moved sideways in order to allow cars in and out of that portion of King George Street.

MR NGOBESE: It's possible that I don't understand when you say there were the southern part because I've been saying this for the past few minutes, that we were moving along the north.

JUDGE NGCOBO: The question is, with regard to the northern part or the southern part and you're talking about the upper part and the lower part.  When you say the upper part, what are you referring to?  Is it still the north to you or does it still mean north to you?

MR NGOBESE: I mean the north.

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, I've asked my learned friend, Mr Berger just to go with a stick and just to point out precisely where we say the blocks were and then hopefully we can short circuit this debate.
	What is being pointed out to you now Mr Ngobese is what I'm referring to as the northern part of that portion of King George Street where there were blocks with a small opening for cars - Mr Berger if you would just point to the southern part.  That is the portion where you see concrete blocks right across the street as in the photograph that's in front of you, thank you.
	Now Mr Ngobese, hopefully that is now clear to you.  Let me put again to you that the presence of those concrete barricades must have been absolutely clear to you as you were there in front of your group on that day.

MR NGOBESE: I do see the concrete bricks in the photo but as he is pointing out in King George and Plein, we hadn't yet reached that point at that time.  He's pointed out at Plein and King George Street, now we hadn't yet reached that point.

MR TIPP: Mr Ngobese, I'm going to suggest that you're being frank with the Committee with that answer.  I'm going to put it to you that it was clear to you and the others in your group that this was not a suitable road for you to move down and that the only reason why you did in fact enter that road is that you charged forward in order to attack the ANC personnel there and potentially the building itself, of Shell House.

MR NGOBESE: According to my own recollection that is not so.

MR TIPP: I'm going to go back for a moment to the position at Park Station.  You have said to us Mr Ngobese, that you moved through Park Station very peacefully and that you had not heard any shots at all until you got to Shell House, is that right?

MR NGOBESE: That is correct.

MR TIPP: I'm going to ask whether you've got any comment on this, there is before this Committee a transcript of radio broadcasts made by the South African Police in the course of that morning, do you follow what that is?

MR NGOBESE: I'm still listening, it's not yet clear to me what you are referring to me.  Maybe I'll get it when you continue to talk.

MR TIPP: Let me then continue and if there is anything unclear you can tell me and I'll try to clarify it for you.
There were policemen at various points on duty that day who made radio broadcasts on their radio from time to time in respect of incidents that they observed.  At 11H12, that is twelve minutes past eleven there is a report from a Major Els at Shell House, that there was shooting there.

MR NGOBESE: Yes, I'm listening, you can continue.  I will	respond to that as soon as you are through.

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, my apologies, it's page 44 in bundle A.
	I'm going to put to you Mr Ngobese, that it's quite clear, indeed it's common cause that that relates to the shooting incident that you've described and in which you say you were injured.

CHAIRPERSON: What page?

MR NGOBESE: At page 43 Mr Chairman, of the same bundle there is a report at 11H09 which is just a few minutes before Mr Ngobese, there's a report from Park Station and it's to the effect that there are about 400 people moving out of Johannesburg Station and that they're firing shots ...[intervention]

SISI KHAMPEPE: Isn't that page 44 Mr Tipp?

MR TIPP: That is 43 Learned Member, that's at 11H09.

MR LAX: Sorry, 11H09 is 44 in our bundle, just to help you.

MR TIPP: Then we're just a little out of sync, I'm sorry.  It's 31 of the typed transcript.

MR LAX: Yes.

MR TIPP: Then at 32 of the typed transcript there is a second report from a member of the police identified as Papa Sierra, 1 at 11H11, more or less directly before the shooting at Shell House.  He says - I'll read it in Afrikaans and then translate it for you:  He's saying that
"We're here at Johannesburg Station, at the very corners of Hook Street and Noord Street.  There are approximately 1000 people around there and they are firing various shots"
Do you follow that Mr Ngobese?

MR NGOBESE: Yes, I'm still following.  If that is a report from the police, if police see you having a firearm they confiscate that firearm, why didn't they?

MR TIPP: Well, we're not here with an inquiry into what the police did or didn't or should have done, we're here into an examination of your evidence.  And I'm going to put it to you that that transcript, together with certain evidence from the ANC guards who heard that shooting, shows that you have not told the truth when you describe your group as having moved peacefully without ever any shots being fired.

MR A P VAN WYK: Mr Chairman, can I just ascertain, is it being put to this witness that it was in this group that the shots were fired where this witness was present?  Is it being to him, because I've seen no affidavit forthcoming from the ANC supporting that statement.

MR TIPP: Mr Chairman, it's put on the basis that there is such immediate congruence of the events that here one has a description of a large group arriving at Park Station and moving to Shell House at the very time that must correspond with the reports made by the police.  We are putting it that it must be this group.
	This entire group of your that arrived by train from Nancefield, Mr Ngobese.

MR NGOBESE: I don't remember anyone amongst my group who had a firearm in his possession.  I don't remember seeing anyone with a firearm and I don't remember hearing any fire coming from my group, that's what I know.

MR TIPP: Well, I'm going to put it to you also that in the inquest statements were filed by police officers who were on duty at Park Station who deny that at any time any marchers were directed in any particular direction.
	Again Mr Chairman, if necessary we'll lodge those with the Commission.

MR NGOBESE: The policemen are also liars, maybe if we spoke to the Captain of the police we could try to establish as to what was happening but there are policemen and there is one who was dressed privately, and I know him from George Koch and I can identify him even now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MR TIPP: We'll leave that all for argument Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes.