Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MR MSHE: As you stood one side, when you turned yourself into an onlooker, how long did the stabbing continue by your friends?

WITNESS:   I don't think it took that long.  Well, we then left after some time when the late Mxenge was lying down there.

MR MSHE: Still in the same book - at page 49, Mr Chairman.  It is the post-mortem report.  May I just find out this.  At the Harms Commission was the post-mortem report ever handed in?  Were you questioned about it?

WITNESS:   I can't remember.

MR MSHE: Did you not give evidence there about the stabbing, the wounds, and all what happened to this man up until his death?

WITNESS:   Well, if I were to - I think I will just say what I overheard, but - that they say there were 42 holes.

MR MSHE: The post-mortem consists of a number of pages.  I do not intend reading that, but seeing that your legal representative has a copy thereof I'll go straight and ask you questions on it.  What is contained in the post-mortem - there are annexures thereto about the abdomen and the

MR MSHE: /back.

MR MSHE: back.  That's page 2.  About the chest and the back.  These are the wounds that were found by the doctor.  He continues, he tells us about the chest, furthermore continued.  Then he tells us about the head and the neck, the wounds thereon found.  Would you dispute what is being stated by the doctor who conducted the post-mortem?

WITNESS:  No, I can't refuse anything there.

MR MSHE: In your application at page 5 of the index, under paragraph (d), you stated that,

MR MSHE: "In this regard I was aware thereof that the ANC and other political organisations had been identified as the enemies of the State."

MR MSHE: Now, who did the identification?

WITNESS:   Because I am saying that before, even when we arrived at Vlakplaas, the manner of those people who were working there was to fight against the ANC and all other political organisations which were against the Government.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... application again you say,

MR MSHE: "Political organisations had been identified as the enemies of the State."

MR MSHE: My question is so simple.  Who identified them as enemies of the State?

WITNESS:   Do you want the name of the person or what?  I don't know.  You may clarify me there.

MR MSHE: The name or the person or persons, or organisations, or whatever identified these enemies.

WITNESS:   I can say that the Security Branch was against the ANC.

MR MSHE: Do I hear you to be saying that it is the Security Branch that identified these enemies?

WITNESS:   Yes, it is the department of Police Force which was against the organisations.

MR MSHE: /Your then

MR MSHE: Your then commander, Mr Dirk Coetzee, has told this Committee when asked a question by one of the Committee Members as to the involvement of the Security Police in identifying these people, and he was asked specifically about ... (inaudible) ... and he said they had no business to identify people, they only received information.  They did not even have access into these files.  They do not even carry files.  Would you say that was incorrect as said by him?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's true.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, I don't think that Mr Coetzee was referring to the Security Police in general in his evidence when he said that.  He was referring to himself at Vlakplaas.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that so ... (inaudible)

MR MSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I'll continue.  Now, did you have any opportunity of verifying these identified enemies?

INTERPRETER: I am sorry, I do not understand the question for my part.

MR MSHE: Did you yourself, if you were told that these are the enemies, the ANC, have any power to question the identification thereof, whether these are the actual people that are to be killed?  Does it make sense?

INTERPRETER: I can understand.

WITNESS:   I never questioned anybody identified.

MR MSHE: Still on that paragraph, you say,

MR MSHE: "I therefore merely followed my orders.  Mxenge was an ANC lawyer, and killing him furthered the Government's war against the ANC."

MR MSHE: Do you remember that?

WITNESS:   Yes, I remember that.

MR MSHE: /I understand

MR MSHE: I understand you to be saying that anybody who was ANC was to be killed, and you would kill him.

WITNESS:   I mean if there were orders given to do that I was definitely going to do that, foresee no problem in doing that.

MR MSHE: Now, Mr Tshikalanga, in killing Mr Mxenge what did you hope to achieve?

WITNESS:   Truly there was nothing which I was expecting to gain, but it was just to follow the commands, and I was on duty, and if we were supposed to do this then we were going to do it.

MR MSHE: For whom were you doing this?

WITNESS:   I can say because I was on duty I was doing it on behalf of my job.  I mean because the orders were given by my superiors to do that act it's then I am putting in a way that I as following the command from the superiors.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... conclude from what you have said that you did what you did not to bring any other change, be it political or social, but you were simply carrying out orders.

WITNESS:   No, we were doing it in order to gain changes, because the deceased I never knew him, I knew about him that he was involved in politics.  It was something to do with politics, that is why we were given orders to execute him.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... changes did you hope to get - to do, or bring about?

WITNESS:   The changes that were supposed to happen were that the superiors were the people who were investing everything, and I think those people might be knowing that if they are making those people to suffer there will be changes so that they will not have ... (inaudible - end of Side A, Tape 4)

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... changes are you talking about?

WITNESS: 	/Well, as I

MR MSHE: Well, as I am saying there are some areas where we are contradicting perhaps.  When I say we were delegated to do whatever, we were not responsible in file holding.  There were people who were responsible for holding the files or keeping the files.  Those were the superiors who were able to see whatever was happening.  In as far as we were concerned what I am saying there could have been other changes on those people who were responsible in doing those things.

MR MSHE: I don't understand you, but we'll leave it at that.  Mr Tshikalanga, isn't it so that you were fighting on behalf of the Government of the day at that time?

WITNESS:   Yes, it is true.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... that you were not fighting for changes, but in fact fighting to prevent changes, and that is the political objective that you were pursuing.  The political objective consisted in the fact that you were preventing changes so that to preserve the status quo.  Isn't that the position?

WITNESS:   Well, yes, I think it's true.

MR MSHE: So that the Nationalist Government could survive and continue.

WITNESS:   It is indeed true.

MR MSHE: In doing this, Mr Tshikalanga, in murdering Mr Mxenge, did you know that you are doing what you are doing in order to preserve a status quo?

WITNESS:   Yes, I think it's true.

MR MSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  No questions.

MR MSHE: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MSHE

MR MARAIS: I have no re-examination, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARAIS

WILSON J: I asked you earlier where you got the knives

WILSON J: /from.   ---

WILSON J: from.

WITNESS:   Yes, I remember.

WILSON J: Now, I'm quoting from a report of evidence you're alleged to have given that says that in November 1981 Sergeant Koos Schutte spoke to you at Vlakplaas and said he was in the office, and told you you must be ready, you're going to go to Durban.  Do you remember that incident?

WITNESS:   No, I can't remember.

WILSON J: And that you then said that Sergeant Schutte told you he was going to organise knives, and later returned with three hunting knives.  However, old Almond Nofomela selected a knife.  Do you remember that?