Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I can't remember the specific incident, but as I have referred to the Commission, that the askaris are later found out to be under the field direction of Sergeant Bellingham and originally from the place referred to as Vlakplaas.

ADV DE JAGER: The question is did you deny in the court knowing anything about askaris?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I can't remember.  I do not know in which context this is put to me, I don't know which context it is put in the court.

ADV DE JAGER: This had to do with Mr Jonas' prosecution.  It was in your case, when you were prosecuted, am I correct?

MR JONAS: Come again?

ADV DE JAGER: When he denied knowing about askaris, was it when you were prosecuted yourself or in somebody else's case?

MR JONAS: It is when I refused to testify and then the State had to come in and then the State also, the witnesses were cross-questioned and he was one of the witnesses.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you the accused?

MR JONAS: Initially I was an accused, but in this instance it was an inquiry into why I refused to testify.

JUDGE WILSON: It wasn't a trial?

MR JONAS: Come again?

JUDGE WILSON: It wasn't at your trial, you say it was an inquiry?

MR JONAS: It was an inquiry within a trial as to find out the reasons why I refused to testify.  You may call it a trial within a trial.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: If I may help the Commission.  Mr Jonas originally would have been a witness for the State and then withdrew his testimony to be a witness.	And then he had to explain to the court, but I don't know if askari came up on numerous occasions, I am not sure if it was on that occasion, that I said I did not know them or that I did know them, but it is possible, I will concede, that I could have perhaps said I do not know them.

UNKNOWN: Section 205 of the Criminal Procedure Act, this is the one always used by journalists.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR JONAS: I would like to ask another question, Mr Benzien.  It is normal practice to take a detainee and introduce the askaris into the detainee when he is supposed to be under, what do you call, protection or what do you call it, under the State, detention laws?  Is it normal practice?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I wouldn't know if it was normal practice, but for a while, I am not sure how many months, it was that you had indicated to the Security Police that you would be assisting them and giving evidence for the State and I am not totally aware of you meeting askaris, but that could possibly have taken place at Culemborg, because as you will remember at Culemborg you practically had free reign of the building.

MR JONAS: Only at Culemborg?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Culemborg is all I can remember.  I think there were other places too.

MR JONAS: Where maybe could I have met the askaris?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: If I wasn't there, I wouldn't know where, but I know for a fact that at Culemborg, at our offices, you had the free reign of the offices.  You were allowed into practically, well into any section.   So if you had met with the askaris, I would say it wasn't a normal procedure, but in your case, you were helping with the identification of people and ...

MR JONAS: What was the role of the askaris, if then I would be helping with the identification of people?  Were they not in a better role than myself being a detainee?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I suppose it could be put that they were in a better position, but as you rightly know that you were also being shown, people were coming from Pretoria with photographs of arrested terrorists, or people supposed to be terrorists and these photographs were being shown to you to do identification.  In actual fact you were helping with the build up of Intelligence dossiers on other people.

MR JONAS: If I may ask you that maybe you used the askaris to get more information about myself, those that you thought that know me, would I be wrong?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No, I wouldn't be wrong.  I am sure that that would have been done.  The same as we used you to get information about other people.

MR JONAS: Okay.  Do you know anything about the death of Temba Dubeni Tsabulani at Faure?  He was arrested some time in March, April 1987, on a Friday and then he died on a Sunday in your hands?  Do you know anything about that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is an absolute lie.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell that name please?   Themba?

MR JONAS: Themba Dubeni from Transkei.

CHAIRPERSON: From Transkei or Tsabulani.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I know the name Tsabulani.

MR JONAS: Tsabulani was arrested on a Friday afternoon.  You got an AK47 from him.  You got a cassette, a video cassette from him.  You got an F1 handgrenade from him on a Friday, that was just 45 minutes after he was arrested, long before we were arrested, he died, he was shot on Sunday morning.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I understand.

MR JONAS: Is that a lie?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: What you said that he died at my hands, is an absolute lie.

MR JONAS: No, when I say in your hands, you and your colleagues, in the police' hands.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Sir, then you are phrasing your question incorrectly.

MR JONAS: Okay, in police hands.  Do you accept that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Because I had heard about Tsabulani, I think it was the first terrorist ever arrested.  He was not arrested by me or my group.  I understand he was arrested by askaris.   We did remove weaponry in Guguletu?

MR JONAS: In Nyanga.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Nyanga.

MR JONAS: Yes.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: And I am aware that this person, Tsabulani died under the circumstances, how I heard it, was while opening an arms cache.  Tsabulani at the afternoon when this was supposed, you say the morning, I was told the afternoon, I was not on duty and not near where Tsabulani was.

MR JONAS: Who was in charge of Tsabulani's Unit that arrested Tsabulani and who was in charge at the time of his death?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jonas, before you answer questions, perhaps I must just remind you, he is applying for amnesty.  You have to give reasons why you are opposing the grant of amnesty in respect of his conduct, not the conduct of what other policemen that might be involved.

MR JONAS: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: We are not concerned about the conduct and the activities of other policemen, he is applying for amnesty for his deeds and if you are opposing his application for amnesty, then you should try and frame your questions in such a way to assist us in knowing why you are opposing the grant of amnesty to him, please.  Otherwise we will be asking questions at random in all directions, about other policemen and not him.

MR JONAS: Sir, it is my belief that an individual is part of a team.

CHAIRPERSON: The team is not here for amnesty.

MR JONAS: Yes, but when one asks for amnesty, it is my belief that he has to give testimony as to the people who gave him orders and to the people to whom he gave orders.

CHAIRPERSON: If your questions are about who gave him orders, those are valid questions.  In other words who did you instruct, those are valid questions.

MR JONAS: That is coming.  But it was the Unit where he belonged.  They don't work as individuals.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you must try and direct your questions to his activities, please, otherwise we will take a whole week in this matter.