Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

MR MGIDLANA: So you say you knew as to why they were arrested in 1986 but it's just that you can't know today?

CHAIRPERSON: Well he said that as far as he can remember today the arrests were politically motivated but that's all he can remember.

MR MGIDLANA: That's also strange, Mr Siqhola, because you'll recall the tortures but you can't recall why you were torturing those people, the reason why you were torturing them.  Isn't it strange to you?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I know why these people were arrested, they were arrested in connection with the politics but what I can't remember now is to specify which person was arrested for that.  I'm not saying I don't know why they were arrested, I know that they were arrested in connection with the politics of the Transkei and South Africa.

MR MGIDLANA: In those arrests you say by the way that you were just - in most cases probably, you were just to go and execute a warrant, is that what you are saying?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes, I had no right to sign a warrant of detention.

MR MGIDLANA: Prior to going to arrest a person are you telling us that there had to be a warrant for the arrest of that person?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: A person would be detained even when the warrant of detention was not there but we wouldn't just go there without instructions, we wouldn't just go and arrest a person without instructions.

MR MGIDLANA: Were you not a member of the investigation unit?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: All the members, the foot soldiers, were investigators.

MR MGIDLANA: And so, as an investigator, you had to wait until given an instruction as to who to investigate and what to investigate, is that what you're saying?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Not to investigate but to arrest we had to wait for instructions.

MR MGIDLANA: And from whom were you getting such instructions in particular all the persons that you mentioned yesterday?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: It was a branch commander, different branch commanders.

MR MGIDLANA: Amongst the other foot soldiers as you call them who were involved in the investigation, were you all constables?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: From a warrant officer downwards.

MR MGIDLANA: Are you then saying that you would get an instruction from the branch commander directly, you being a constable, to go an arrest a particular person?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Sometimes.

MR MGIDLANA: And on some other times?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: You would get instructions from the next senior man.

MR MGIDLANA: Can you tell us just one next senior man that you ever got instructions from?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes I can tell you.

MR MGIDLANA: Proceed please?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Warrant Officer Matafeni and Sergeant Chiyane, Sergeant Tshona and others, I cannot remember them now, there were a lot of them in the office.

MR MGIDLANA: As I understand, those are the persons with whom you were actually working closely, is that correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Is there any reason why you could not mention them in your evidence in chief yesterday, as some of the people you were also getting instructions from?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Can you please repeat your question?

MR DUKADA: Sorry Mr Chairperson, may I intervene on behalf of the witness?  At paragraph 9.1 of his affidavit he mentions various people to whom he was accountable.  He says at I think the fourth sentence of paragraph 9.1
"I was a constable and getting instructions from Brigadier Dengana.  At times I would be summoned to the security quarters at Bothastal Building and given instructions"
And there is also paragraph 9.2 where he mentions various people who would give him warrants to go and arrest and account to them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think that's why Mr Mgidlana is asking, is why he didn't - if he mentioned all those people why didn't he mention these people, that is Sergeants Tshona, Chiyane, Matafeni and others?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: There are a lot of documents that I sent to the TRC.  I think their names are mentioned in other documents and sometimes you forget certain names.  I cannot remember all the names.

MR MGIDLANA: You still have not answered my question because even in those other documents you don't say you were getting instructions from the gentlemen that we have just mentioned.  Is there any reason why you don't mention these people as people that you used to get instructions from as well?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I mentioned their names in a document that I sent to the TRC.

MR MGIDLANA: Maybe I don't get the point well, you say these are the people that you worked with, that's what you say in those documents.  You say in your affidavit and in your evidence in chief yesterday that you are used to getting instructions from other people other than these, you don't mention these, that's the point that I'm trying to make and now the question is why is it that you don't mention these other people that you have now mentioned as some of the people from whom you would get these instructions, why is it that nowhere in your evidence yesterday did you mention them and even on other documents that we have submitted to the TRC you don't mention getting instructions from these people?  That seems to have been members of your unit.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Their names do appear.

MR MGIDLANA: Shall I take it you don't want to answer this question so that I just pass it?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Their names appear in different documents, I have already mentioned before that I cannot memorise or recall all of them.  Not to say that I'm leaving their names for a certain reason.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think their names appear or some of their names appear on page 10 of the papers at the top but not as persons who gave instructions but I think you've dealt with this point.

MR MGIDLANA: Thank you Chairperson.  The reason for your not mentioning these people as people that you were getting instructions from, isn't it that you wanted to mention high-profile people so that your story could be believed?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Let me explain about these instructions, Sir, it seems a if you don't understand.  I would like to be given a chance to explain about these instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes go ahead.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: The instructions would come from the branch commander.  The branch commander would call a warrant officer or lieutenant or a captain and then the captain would come to you with the car keys and then he would say, let's go and arrest a certain person.  I don't regard those as instructions of arresting a person, those instructions were coming from the top person, the branch commander.

CHAIRPERSON: So what you're saying, Mr Siqhola, is if you got instructions like you mention now from Sergeant Tshona and those other names, those instructions actually came from the branch commander and these people were just a conduit pipe, just relaying the instruction from the commander through to you?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Is that what you know as a matter of fact or is it certain thing that you were supposed to in the position?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I am a police and I know that this is the way the chain of command was used at the police.

MR MGIDLANA: For example, when you say that you will receive instructions from Brigadier Dengana, certainly those instructions were not given to you, is that not so?

CHAIRPERSON: You mean directly?

MR MGIDLANA: Not to you directly, yes Chairperson.  Thank you.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Some of them.