Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-11

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The one that I know, stays in Bapedi Street and other one used to stay at Barolong Street, in Barolong Street, but he has since left.  I am the only Wilson Baloyi.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Baloyi, listen carefully to the question.  We gather from you that there are other persons with the surname of Baloyi in the township, is that right?  Is that right or not, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What Counsel is asking you is do you know a person with the name of Wilson Baloyi who stays in Boipatong, in particular in Senqu Street?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I don't.  The only one Wilson Baloyi, I know, stays in Bafokeng Street.

MR STRYDOM: Have you ever worked at Cape Gate Construction?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No.

MR STRYDOM: You see the reason why I am asking you this, I've got a statement here which we got out of the Police docket, I just want to establish if it is a statement made by you.  The person here is mentioned as Wilson Baloyi, 57 year old person residing at 231 Senqu Street, Boipatong, employed as a labourer at the Cape Gate Construction, so that is definitely not you, is that what you are saying?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I never worked at a construction.    The one person that I know to be working at Cape Gate, a Baloyi that I know who works there, stays in Majola Street.

MR STRYDOM: After the attack on Boipatong, have you made a statement to any person in regard to the attack?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I did.

MR STRYDOM: Can you remember if you only made one statement or more than one statement?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: There are many of them that I have made.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember to whom did you make the first statement after the attack?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I went to some Attorneys in Vanderbijlpark.

MR STRYDOM: How long was that after the attack?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It had not been long after the attack, even though I cannot be certain of the months that have lapsed after the attack.

MR STRYDOM: Do you still know the name of that firm of Attorneys where you made the statement?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They called me to come and make statements, I did not go there on my own.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but once you got there, you made a statement, I just want to know if you know the name of that firm?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No.  No, I don't know it.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know why the Attorneys called you to come and make a statement there?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It is not Attorneys, it is in court, we just call them Attorneys, we don't know where they came from.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, you will have to explain.  Did you go to,  did you mention Vereeniging or Vanderbijl, let's just get clarity on that, where you went to to see these people that you call Attorneys.

CHAIRPERSON: Vanderbijl.

MR STRYDOM: Vanderbijl?  Did you go to the court in Vanderbijl, the Magistrate's court building?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, we didn't go to the Magistrate's office, but yes, we went to the court and we went to an office where everything that was being said, was written down, just like as you are writing now.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know if it were people from the Attorney General's office, State officials?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I don't know, I don't know, I had never been involved in any offences.

MR STRYDOM: When you made that statement to these people, did you tell them everything in the same fashion you told the Committee now?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They were asking me questions, the same way as you people are doing here.

MR STRYDOM: Did you feel free to give all the answers?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I had to speak freely, because I am the one who was attacked.

MR STRYDOM: That is the first statement.  Did you give a statement after that, do you remember?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am saying there were many people who had come to make statements.    Many Police would come and take statements.  I was hoping that this would be taken further.

MR STRYDOM: And all the statements you gave, you told the Police or whoever took the statements, your full version of what happened at Boipatong?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: And you signed these statements, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I cannot recall whether I signed.

MR STRYDOM: Some of these people you gave statements to, you said was also the Police, is that right?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, all my statements were given to the Police.

MR STRYDOM: You say that all your statements were given to the Police, didn't you also give a statement to the ANC Peace Desk in Boipatong itself?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: At the time the people of the ANC would come to take statements and get our version of the occurrence.

MR STRYDOM: So, you did not only give statements to Police, but also to other institutions like the ANC?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They were asking questions, I am not suggesting that they took statements.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Baloyi, are you Tsonga speaking?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember that you made a statement on the 27th of July 1992.

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me Mr Strydom, before he answers that question, Mr Baloyi, if you say you are (indistinct), are you specifically saying you are Tsonga because even Venda's say they are (indistinct)?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am Tsonga.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember giving a statement to the Police on the 27th of July 1992 at Boipatong itself?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am saying the Police came, it was very difficult to monitor the dates, because there was conflict, there was fighting.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting during July 1992, there was fighting?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am saying at the time, the entire Boipatong was sick after the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Baloyi, we understand that there is no one who had the opportunity at the time, to record the dates and the time when statements were taken, but what you are being asked is whether do you recall making a statement to the Police in July of 1992, the answer to that question is either yes, I recall or I don't recall.  Do you understand that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did give the Police a statement, but I cannot commit myself to July.  I am not certain.

MR STRYDOM: That statement that you gave the Police, did they come to your house to take the statements?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Some came to my house and I was refusing to give them a statement because I was furious.

MR STRYDOM: You did not want to cooperate with the Police when they asked you to give statements, is that what you are saying, at a certain stage?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did not trust them because I saw them on the night of the massacre.

MR STRYDOM: So initially you were not prepared to give them a statement?  Did you later on give the Police a statement or not, which you had signed?  It is a statement which they had taken and you signed it?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I later on gave them a statement, the very same Police.

MR STRYDOM: Why were you prepared to give a statement at that stage?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They pleaded with me saying they wanted to know what happened, that is why I gave them the statement.

MR STRYDOM: Will it be a convenient stage?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes indeed, we will take the tea adjournment and return at half past eleven.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, are you ready?

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairperson, regrettably I am not yet ready, I have just spoken to Mr Prior now, they are still compiling the documents and then they are going to fax it.

CHAIRPERSON: On Tuesday last week, I indicated that the application would be argued at nine o'clock today, is there any reason why they are not ready now?