Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-12

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.  I have no more questions.

BUKA PINZI: What I did, I went to report my fridge that they took because I was still paying for my fridge.

CHAIRPERSON: Piet Meiring.

YASMINE SOOKA: Could you tell me what actually happened about the fridge?

BUKA PINZI: I reported the matter to Ellerines and they said I should report it to the police station.  I got an affidavit and I returned it to Ellerines and they asked me whether I wanted another fridge.  I said I do not want another fridge because I would not be able to pay it as I had been injured.

YASMINE SOOKA: When you reported the fridge did you not mention anything about your eye?

BUKA PINZI: Yes, I told them that I would not be able to pay the fridge because I was injured and I could not go on working.

YASMINE SOOKA: No, Mr Pinzi.  I am asking that when you went to the police to make the affidavit about the fridge, did you tell the police about what happened to your eye?  Did you report it?

BUKA PINZI: Yes, I reported the matter.  I told the police about my eye.

YASMINE SOOKA: And did they do anything about it?

BUKA PINZI: They did nothing.  They just gave me the affidavit to take to Ellerines and that is all they did.

CHAIRPERSON: Piet Meiring.

PROF MEIRING: Mr Pinzi I would like to ask a few questions
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about your own personal circumstances at the moment.  I would like to ask a few questions about your.  Mr Pinzi I would like.

CHAIRPERSON: I am trying to switch it off.

PROF MEIRING: There you are.  Mr Pinzi, I need to ask you a number of questions about your own personal circumstances if you do not mind.  The first thing I would like to ask is, are you married?

BUKA PINZI: Yes, I was married, but we are now separated.

PROF MEIRING: Were you married when this thing happened to you?

BUKA PINZI: Yes, I was married.

PROF MEIRING: Are there children?

BUKA PINZI: Yes, I do have kids.

PROF MEIRING: How many children do you have?

BUKA PINZI: I have four kids.  One is 12, the other one is eight years, the third one is five years and the other one is two years old.

PROF MEIRING: And are they in your care?  Do you have to pay for their schooling and for all the other things they need?

BUKA PINZI: Yes, I am the one who provides for them.

PROF MEIRING: Are they living with you or are they living with their mother?

BUKA PINZI: They stay with me.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you and you are not employed at the moment or are you working?

BUKA PINZI: No, I am not employed at the moment.

PROF MEIRING: Excuse me for asking the question, but where do you find money to care for the children, to pay for their school and for all the other things they need?
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BUKA PINZI: At times I sell, there are certain things that I sell and whatever money that I get from my sales I put it aside for my children.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you very much.  Those were my questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Randera.

DR RANDERA: Mr Pinzi, just tell me, I know your eye had been injured at the time, but the other two people who came before us today talked about the IFP people being protected by the police.  Did you see any of that?

BUKA PINZI: I was so injured and there was absolutely no way for me to have noticed anything of that sort because when I was from Swanieville, I was running for my life.  It was so cold and I just had no time to sit around and look what was happening.

DR RANDERA: I understand.  I just want to come back to this group called The Men and The Women.  Were they all members of the ANC?

BUKA PINZI: I think, according to my own observations, I thought that would probably be the case, but at some stage I thought there was a difference between the two groups.  I was not very, very sure because of the way that they conducted this whole thing.  I ended up believing that we were not all members of the ANC because I believed we would be called and we would address the issue.

DR RANDERA: Now you said you were patrolling.  You were part of the group that was patrolling every night.  For how many nights were people patrolling before the attack?

BUKA PINZI: The rule in Swanieville was that when Swanieville was established in 1989.  We started patrolling in 1990 or 1991.  That is when the patrol thing started because other
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areas had been attacked.  So we decided that we should protect our own area.  That was from 1991, but I am not sure as to which month we started patrolling.

DR RANDERA: Mr Pinzi, I just want to understand.  You said the night before the attack you had listened to the radio and there had been a message that the police were protecting.  There was nothing to be frightened about and therefore, although you went to sleep at two o' clock in the morning, the patrol seemed to have taken that as an understanding.  Now, are we to understand that in that atmosphere in 1991, people actually trusted what the police were saying?

BUKA PINZI: I do not understand the question.  It is quite long.

DR RANDERA: Okay.  Sorry, let me come back.  You said that you had heard on the radio that it was not necessary to patrol.  Is that right?

BUKA PINZI: That is correct.

DR RANDERA: And that was coming from the police?

BUKA PINZI: That is true.

DR RANDERA: What I am asking is that were people trusting the police at the time?

BUKA PINZI: At the time the police were not trusted by the residents.  It was so, so.  It was not really a situation where you could vouch and say they were trusted by the residents, but at the time even when we watched TV we could see that when two groups are fighting, that is Inkatha and the ANC, you could see that the police were much more aligned to the Inkatha than the ANC.  We realised that the police were our enemies.  That is why that during the night I did not sleep, I slept at 2am.
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DR RANDERA: My last question is related to your fridge.  I thought I had heard you say earlier on that you did not go back to Swanieville after you had been shot.  When you went to the police station who were you saying had stolen your fridge or how did you find out that your fridge had been stolen?

BUKA PINZI: There are certain youths who I was staying with at the house and they were left uninjured when I ran away.  They went back, they discovered the fridge had been taken or stolen and they told me whilst I was at the hospital that the fridge was stolen.  That is when I decided to go to Ellerines and they said I should report the matter to the police.

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin Sooka.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Pinzi, I am sorry to come back to this question of these two groups, The Men and the Women.  I want to understand properly when these two groups started.  How long were you yourself living in Swanieville before this incident happened?

BUKA PINZI: These groups started when the place had grown bigger.  That is when people started arriving and staying in Swanieville.  That is when this demarcation started.  At first the place did not have any political groups or any groups whatsoever because the people were not so many when I arrived in Swanieville.  When the place grew bigger and bigger there was a difference between the people.

YASMINE SOOKA: And what was this difference based on?

BUKA PINZI: Everytime when there were meetings that we convened, the people who regarded themselves as The Men use to come to our side or to our area and dictate terms to us
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and tell us that there was going to be a meeting held.  I did not understand who actually was the leader of that particular group.  Even at the meeting when the meeting was being addressed they were very dominating, those who called themselves The Men.