Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-09

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: I've got doubts whether that happened during my term of office Sir, I've got no recollection of that.  I may have read about it in the press subsequently but please, before I can comment Sir, on a culture Sir, which is a composite word which means that it infiltrates into and affects the whole organisation or the whole organism, before I can comment on that Sir I must have many more facts at my disposal Sir.
 A culture is something much more.  It could affect, for instance, isolated groups, yes, I can understand that.  It may have done that.  A certain commander may have misled his men, or he may have thought he was acting bona fide, so for me to make a blanket statement about it and say that was all illegal, they should have known it was illegal because it's illegal in the laws of the country, that Sir is not my position, and this is not what I can say Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: General could I, I think the word culture is all pervasive, I don't want to use that word, but I think what is clear from the - not now the untested allegations of victims, let's set that aside, but the actual confessions, if you want to use that word or admissions, accounts in amnesty applications, nearly 8,000 of them, and many of them refer to up to 30, 40 "murders", the word they use in their amnesty applications, and many of them are policemen.  I am not suggesting for a moment that all of this took place under your command, but I think what puzzles us is that these were widespread, these weren't located, I mean Vlakplaas has become the dirty word, the swear word, but I mean we are listening to and reading applications which are, to put it no higher than widespread, over a long period of time, but particularly in the eighties where the situation became, as I think General van der Merwe described it as 'desperate', an escalation of the conflict on all sides, what I think we find difficult to understand is how this could take place, how people could die, could be tortured, could be abducted, could be buried and many of them - and people like yourself and others just didn't know, weren't aware of that these people were acting unlawfully or illegally or misunderstood or - help us!  I mean how is it possible for that to take place?

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: No, no, I think Sir one should look upon this whole matter in its whole situation.  It lasted Sir, 30 years.  What was described by both sides as a war situation lasted more than 30 years, point one.  South Africa is a violent country. Every day as Commissioner of Police I was confronted with a list of murders the previous day which ran into tens and twenties and thirties.  This is South Africa, this is the practicalities of the South African situation Sir.  You have a war, you've got different organisations involved in this.  On the government side you've got National Intelligence, you've got the South African Police, you've got the Army and you've got very many different organisations involved.  You've got an organisation that I've heard of long after my retirement, the CCB.  I never knew such an organisation existed.  So there were many organisations, everyone created and did what he thought was necessary.  Add to this potpourri Sir that the opposition side, it was an underground war Sir, it wasn't above ground so that you can probe it, every issue of it, it was all done on a need to know on an underground basis, both from the side of the ANC, APLA, South African Police, the Army and everyone that participated in this.  So in that situation Sir I say that it's not a normal situation where you have evidence, information at your fingertips.   In those cases Mr Chairman, and I can mention them if it's necessary where I became aware, where I became aware Vlakplaas operatives I had them charged for murder Sir.  I didn't hide them. Back Sir, you've referred to Vlakplaas, when I became aware that one of them has committed a murder I, in Natal, I said charge him before the courts.   When I became aware Sir that a Mr, a certain constable has shot a person through the head that he was interrogating and I could have, if I wanted to Sir, and the ex-Attorney General is here, I could have, I said no, no, no, no, no, wait, this man's father was an officer in the police and he was very annoyed that his young son was used to, what he described, to interrogate a person that sort-of inveigled him into this situation, that policeman Sir went to prison for 10 or 15 years.  His father was a colleague of ours.  That type of thing wasn't condoned Sir.  I can go on and on and on with those incidents if it's necessary.
 Departmental trials, regularly, but you must understand the atmosphere, the climate in which things occurred.  A war situation Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Goosen.

MR GOOSEN: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson.  General Coetzee did you ever become aware of the fact that a member of, or members of military special forces have been responsible for the murder of the Ribeiros?

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: Sir I, Mr Chairperson I want to place it on record here unequivocally here today,  firstly I never, ever knew about that, no plan, no envisaged plan, no joint venture of that nature was ever discussed with me at all, neither by any member of the South African defence force or by any of the officers of the South African Police, Chief of Security or the officer that was responsible for liaison to a certain extent with the South African defence force.  And particularly Sir, I never knew that the South African defence force intended using special forces within South Africa in support of the police.  That was never mentioned to me.  I know nothing whatsoever about it.

MR GOOSEN: Did you become aware after the facts that that was the case?

PETRUS JOHANNES COETZEE: No Sir.  I - what happened Sir if I have to tell the whole story again Sir, there were these assassinations, that morning in the ordinary course of events I heard about, it was in the press, it was in the press, the members of the family of these assassinated people immediately started comments, making statements, and this can be verified Sir, to the press alleging that some State organ was involved.  They refused for about a fortnight to make any statement whatsoever to the South African Police, an affidavit of any nature.
 But we also say Sir that immediately when there's an unnatural death in South Africa there starts an investigation.  It was conducted by a senior police officer who is now a general in the police, General Britz.  I never spoke to him about it.  That is the position.  
 So the press stories, the press stories said "identified", not the police Sir, the press identified a certain gentleman, a white gentleman, as allegedly belonging formally to some scout organisation in the ex-Rhodesia.  That is what their investigations revealed.  (Whispering consultation)  Ja, I am just saying, my, my - it's just that the position is that I am talking about an amnesty application by another gentleman, but as far as I am concerned I am referring only to myself, you have mentioned the name referring to myself.  So as far as I am concerned Sir, as far as I am concerned I never knew that he was assassinated by South African Defence Force special branch, or special forces.  
 There was, in the ordinary course of events, in the ordinary course of events there was a court case, and as far as I understand, that is where probing questions should have been asked and it should have been reported to me that there is something of that nature.

MR GOOSEN: Did you as Commissioner of Police at the time, did you make any enquiries in regard to the matter from any officer of the South African Defence Force in regard to the matter as to whether the allegations that were being made at the time had any substance?