Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-25

MR VISSER: Yes, alright.  Again Doctor, I am not criticising you, I am just trying to establish what was found.  Just one last aspect, would you have seen at the time of the exhumation, a post-mortem report filled out by Dr Chetty?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: I don't recall seeing it, no.

MR VISSER: Did you know Dr Chetty at all, personally?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: I have met him, but more an associate rather than knowing as a friend.

MR VISSER: Alright, so you didn't know about this standard of professional work, etc?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Unfortunately not.

MR VISSER: If I had to put to you, Doctor, that when bodies are brought to the mortuary in a decomposed state and there is no indication in the documentation accompanying the body, that District Surgeons or Doctors would often not do a post-mortem on such a body, would that be, as a sweeping statement, would that be correct?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That is an unfair generalisation.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Let me put the next one to you.  If I put to you that a District Surgeon or Doctor who often does not do the post-mortem report, would view the body and would enter the cause of death often, enter the cause of death as "undetermined", without investigation?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: I must concur there, I have observed a few reports where I had to do a second autopsy in which District Surgeons had placed the cause of death as being "undetermined due to decomposition".

MR VISSER: Yes.  That is understandable.

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: They aren't trained as pathologists, just General Practitioners who use their basic knowledge of anatomy and physiology.  We are specially trained to look for ...(indistinct)

MR VISSER: But the point here is this, if that body contained a bullet wound in the head, with or without special training as a pathologist, wouldn't you expect a Doctor or a layman to have observed it, on a totally decomposed body?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Well, not necessarily.  Again, this is just a generalisation and I am not being specific, one would imagine that because a decomposed body stinks, and because it is not very pleasant to the eye, people who are uninitiated will find it offensive and may not pay particular attention.

MR VISSER: And a seasoned Doctor that has done, as you say, thousands of these things?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Well, we get stuck in and ...

MR VISSER: And have a look.

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: And definitely tear it apart, yes.

MR VISSER: Yes, yes.  Yes, thank you Doctor.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser.  Mr Hugo, do you have any questions?

MR HUGO: No questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel?

MR NEL: No thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe?

MR VAN DER MERWE: No thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Doctor, I want to refer you to Dr Naidoo's report at page 28 of Bundle 2, dealing with the stature of the skeletal remains.
	I want to refer you specifically to the last two paragraphs.  Are you familiar with Lundi's formula?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: In theory, yes.

MR WILLS: Yes.  And I see ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wills, whose formula?

MR WILLS: Lundi's?

CHAIRPERSON: Lundi's?  Whereabouts is that?

MR WILLS: It is after (vii), that paragraph.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, thank you, yes, here I see it.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Now, my understanding is when Dr Naidoo applied this formula, he came up with this approximation of 1.35 - 1.42 m in height?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Right.

MR WILLS: What I want your comment on is the next paragraph.  He says
"... please note that the above formula provides not for precise estimation and the actual height calculated may be considered to be inaccurate."
	That is the point that I am wanting your opinion on.  How inaccurate could that height be?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: I am afraid I cannot give you a fair answer on that.  One has to look at the tables and get an opinion from a mathematician who will give you a statistical evaluation on the formula itself, because if you notice in his formula, he says "plus-minus 32", a number of factors may be factored into that, you know.  The accuracy of the ruler being used or the calliper being used, to what number of digits he's measured.  So it's a difficult thing to say.  Dr Naidoo would be more precise, because he did the measurements and he would be able to tell you.

MR WILLS: Are you in agreement that this formula, Lundi's formula would just give you an estimation as opposed to a precise height?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLS: Sorry, if you could just explain to me what the difference is between complete decomposition and skeletal remains?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Skeletonisation?

MR WILLS: Skeletonisation, yes, briefly.

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Well, when a person dies, the body starts to autolyse, the chemicals, the enzymes in the body starts to disintegrate the cells.  Our gastro intestinal system also has micro organisms which would be responsible for breaking down the body, by using whatever contents are in the gut as nutrition, we progress along a sort of scale, it is a continual, where you may start with the early signs of decomposition which may be skin slipping, dehydration, marbling, skin slipping and things, and then you can have gaseous distension.  In an advance stage of decomposition, we have this bloating appearance, we have maggot infestation and the body then is consumed, or the soft tissue, shall I say, is consumed by the maggots and it is also destroyed by the automatic process of enzymes.
	When we refer to skeletonisation, we ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you get to skeletonisation, that was advanced, where you have the bloating ...

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Decomposition?

CHAIRPERSON: But completely decomposed, as which was the term used in one of the ...

MR WILLS: It was Dr Chetty's report, at page 67.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Chetty's report, he used that word completely decomposed.  What do you think he would mean by that?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: I would think it is a subjective evaluation, which may mean that the organs were so autolytic that the actual structure of them, that we sort of observed microscopically, may not have been identified, so they didn't maintain the normal texture.

CHAIRPERSON: Doctor, we don't know precisely, but if a body was laying in the veld, exposed, for two months, what would you say, I know it is difficult for you, in Durban, in Bambai, or that area?

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: I don't know where that is.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Inanda, not right next to the sea, sort of a bit in, what would you expect with regard to the degree of decomposition?  Is two months correct, more or less?

MR WILLS: Approximately two months.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it was June, July, about two months.

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: I would say that the body would have been decomposed.  Was this in winter or in summer?

CHAIRPERSON: From May, through to July.  It is basically, it includes mid-winter.

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Mid-winter?

CHAIRPERSON: Dryer type, not as much rain as in summer.

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: Yes, I would expect the body to be in an advanced stage of decomposition, with partial skeletonisation at least, depending on the maggot infestation.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.   Now, I just want to get back to the ...

CHAIRPERSON: You just wanted to finish, he was just finishing what skeletal is, I think, if you could just for the record tell us.

SAGRAM NOMICAN AIYER: As the soft tissue disappears, because the bone is hard, one notices the bone structure and that is skeletonisation.
	It can either be partial skeletonisation, where the skin, some parts of the body might still cover bone, or it might be totally exposed, where you have total skeletonisation.