Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-02

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: According to the way we shot them I was under the impression that they were all dead.  I don't know whether one of them survived but I think all of them died.

MR MOTATA: You have just said, after they were shot, those who had sharp instruments finished them off, were you under the impression that they were still
alive?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We shot them Sir, and some of them were still alive and they were finished off with these compasses.

CHAIRPERSON: Where exactly were these person shot at, chest, head, legs, where?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The rest of them were shot at their heads and the chest.

CHAIRPERSON: When they were shot at, where were they facing?  Were they shot at from far and how close was the person who was shooting them?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We were very close to them Sir, close.

CHAIRPERSON: For example, when you shot with the AK47, how far were you from the person that you shot?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: About one and a half metres to two metres.

CHAIRPERSON: At what part of the body did you aim the AK47?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The head.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you shoot at each and every one of these nine persons?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No Sir, I shot those whom I shot and the others shot at the others.  I've already said that three
of us had AK47's, Ntjebe had a 9mm shot.  I shot those, I managed to shoot and the others also shot.

CHAIRPERSON: How many did you shoot?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I did not count.

CHAIRPERSON: Did someone give an order to those members of the SDU who had firearms, that you shoot this one and you shoot the others and so on?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir.  Ntjebe Ndondolo issued out an order but he was not specific as to who should shoot who, he said: "Shoot them".  He was not specific enough as to how many I should shoot.

MR MADASA: You said Ntjebe Ndondolo was the first to shoot and then thereafter he ordered you to shoot, how many did Ndondolo shoot?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: They were ordered to sit down, as they were sitting down he shot at them.  Now I did not see how many people he shot.

MR MADASA: But how many shots did he fire?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Four, if not five times.

MR MOTATA: Mr Motlokwa, responding to a question you said: "According to the way we shot at them, all of them must have died.  Before you left the scene, did you make sure that these people were dead because the orders given to you was to shoot them dead?  Am I probably mistaken?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, I said that the way we shot at them I was sure that they were all dead.  I don't know, but it happens sometimes that you think you have shot at a person but the next day he is alive.

CHAIRPERSON: No, the issue is not so much what may or may not happen, the question is: "When you left the veld on that day, were you satisfied that all nine people were dead or did you believe that all nine persons were dead?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: When we left the veld I believe that they were dead.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, do you know the names of the persons that you killed?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, Sir, I do not know all their names.

CHAIRPERSON: Who do you know?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I know Buthelezi.

CHAIRPERSON: Buthelezi is the old man?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyone else?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Buthelezi's son.

CHAIRPERSON: And who else?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The others I do not know.  Vips was not killed with that group, he left with Manyala and them and I heard later that he was killed somewhere in Kumalo Section.  He was not killed with the rest of the group.

CHAIRPERSON: So you can only identify two persons that you killed, that is Buthelezi and his son?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I'm not denying the fact that I also took part in the killing of the others, I just forgot their names.

CHAIRPERSON: No-one is suggesting that, do you understand that?  All we want to know is, if you know the names of the persons then tell us that.  Are these the only persons you remember?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Now after these people were killed, was there any meeting held afterwards by way of a report back or something?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: After the killing of these nine people there was meeting, the central meeting for the SDU's and  the whole of Katlehong attended.  In discussion was this issue of the killing.  The sectional commander wanted to know why these people were killed.

MR MADASA: Who wanted to know, sectional or central?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The central.

MR MADASA: Yes, what transpired at that meeting?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Mr Ngobo.

MR MADASA: Was he given the report?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He was given a report by the delegates from the SDU.

MR MADASA: Sorry, sorry, were you at that meeting?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I was not there, I was only given a report back as to the contents of the discussion.

MR MADASA: Who was sent to that meeting as delegates?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sugar, he has since died, Sugar and Morashia.

MR MADASA: Who is Morashia, what was he?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I do not know his full name.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he amongst the applicants?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, he's not here Sir.

MR MADASA: What was his rank?  Morashia, what was he, was he a member of the SDU?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: He was a member of the SDU, yes.

MR MADASA: Was he in the leadership?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, he was among the leadership.

MR MADASA: Who else, Sugar, Morashia and who?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Two people were delegated.

MR MADASA: Now did you then receive a report from them as to what transpired at the meeting?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: To the best of your knowledge the meeting had been called by Mr Ngobo the central commander, to receive a report as to why the nine persons had been killed?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And to the best of your knowledge he was given that report?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: In the report back to us was said that he was told the reasons behind the killing of these people.

CHAIRPERSON: What reasons were given to him?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: They told him that these people killed comrade Bulelwa and Blanko and Galo.

MR MAPOMA: Through you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Because they had killed Bulelwa, Blanko and who?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The central received numerous cases, he killed Bulelwa and Blanko.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you.

MR MAPOMA: I heard you mentioning Galo, you said Blanko, Bulelwa and Galo, when was Galo killed?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Galo?

MR MAPOMA: Didn't you mention three people?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: No, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Okay, can I put another questions, we are hearing about this Morashia at this stage of the proceedings, did he feature in any other meetings or activities of the SDU's on the night Bulelwa and Blanko were killed?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, he had been present.  I already indicated that he was the person responsible for getting Ntlesi, the traditional medicine.  Now because of the  -the stability unit was looking for him and he quit his job and then he rand away, he went to his hometown Matatele.

MR MADASA: Now, were there allegations that Bulelwa Zwane was perhaps killed by the SDU's?  Are you aware of such an allegation?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, such allegations existed, that she was killed by members of the SDU.

MR MADASA: What caused the confusion?  Why was it alleged that she was killed by you and you say she was killed by the youth?