Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-28

MR KINCAID: Who took possession of the firearm, do you know - or let me ask you before you answer that, was there a leader of this group or was it pretty much a disorganised group of attackers?  Was there a leadership within the group?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: There was no leader, it was just disorganised, people would do as they please, but there was an instruction not to kill the farmers.

MR KINCAID: So that was the first incident, Jimmy.  Do you know what became of the firearm that was robbed from Mr Hansel, was it used at all in the struggle against the Security Forces or was it used in other incident?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: This firearm would be used during the other incident, even during the roadblocks we would use this firearm.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Kincaid, if I can just interrupt here.  You asked a question: "Who took possession of the firearm", and then you interrupted yourself saying: "Let me first ask, was there a leader?"  I don't think we got an answer to the question: "Who took possession of the firearm?"

MR KINCAID: I'm indebted to you, Advocate Bosman.
	Jimmy, we haven't answered that question yet.  After the firearm had been taken possession of, who did it, who took hold of the firearm, who had possession of the firearm?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: As we were hitting Mr Hansel, he refused to give us the firearm.  We took him and he showed us behind the wardrobe.  Some took it.  It looks like Mr Mzuyanda Ntonga was also there.  He is the one who took this firearm behind the wardrobe.

MR KINCAID: Then I asked you whether you knew what subsequently became of the firearm, whether it was used in the defence against the Security Forces or whether it was used in the subsequent incidents.  And your answer to that please, Jimmy.

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: The firearm was used to fight the Security Forces and this same firearm was used in the other incidents.

MR KINCAID: Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, will that be convenient?  We'll adjourn for 15 minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nokawusana, I remind you that you are still under oath.

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kincaid?

MR KINCAID: (Cont)
	Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Nokawusana, the second incident happened in February of 1990 and it involved an attack on Mr Cobus, who lived on the farm Sunrise, Stutterheim.  Where was the farm Sunrise situated, Jimmy?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: It was also near to our township.  There was only one road and then you would get to the farm.

MR KINCAID: Were you involved, Jimmy, were you part of the group who attacked Mr Cobus?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KINCAID: Once again, can you estimate how strong the group was, how many people were in the group?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: I can estimate about 40 or 30.

MR KINCAID: It's common cause Jimmy that you were unsuccessful in your efforts at getting firearms at Mr Cobus' house.

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KINCAID: Can you briefly describe, Jimmy, what happened there, how did the attack happen at Mr Cobus and can you say what your involvement was, what did you do in that attack?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: When we arrived in that farm we stood there at the camp because we didn't know where the house was.  We then went to ask from the people who were working at the farm, we asked the road or the way to the farmhouse.

MR KINCAID: Fine.  Once you got to the farmhouse, what happened there?  Did you gain access to the property, the house itself of Mr Cobus?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: I would like to ask, are we talking about Mr Pretorius or who, because I don't clearly remember their names.

MR KINCAID: No, Mr Cobus, we're dealing with the Cobus incident, the farm Sunrise in Stutterheim. This incident does not involve the shooting of Joe Senti, this was the previous incident.  Can you recall it?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I can recall it.

MR KINCAID: Mr Cobus was shot, someone shot at Mr Cobus and injured him, can you recall the incident now?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I do recall the incident.

MR KINCAID: Do you know who shot at Mr Cobus?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: I don't know who shot him, but I heard that he was shot by the people who went there.

MR KINCAID: I take it from that response, Jimmy, that  you had no hand in shooting Mr Cobus?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: No, I didn't take part in the shooting.

MR KINCAID: And no weapons were found at his farm, you weren't able to get into his homestead and you were unable to find any weapons there, is that correct?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KINCAID: Jimmy, once again, do you confirm that the reason for the attack on Mr Cobus' farmstead was so that you could arm yourselves as a group, so that you could get weapons, get his weapons and so that you could intimidate him and scare him off his land?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KINCAID: You didn't bear Mr Cobus any ill-will or spite, Jimmy, there was nothing personal in your attack on him?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct, we didn't hate him, we just wanted weapons.

MR KINCAID: Coming now to the Pretorius incident, which happened on the farm Spes Bona, Jimmy.  Can you recall that incident now?  It was the occasion where Joe Senti was shot.

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, I can recall the incident.

MR KINCAID: Where was Spes Bona situated in relation to Stutterheim and its immediate vicinity?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: It was far from Stutterheim, it was a walking distance.

MR KINCAID: Did it border on a township?  Do you know whether the farm Spes Bona bordered on or neighboured a township?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: The farm was not too far, but when you would leave, it was an hour, it took us an hour from the township to the farm, it was not too far.

MR KINCAID: To walk, I assume?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KINCAID: Can you say how big the group was that attacked the Pretorius farm?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: There were quite a lot of us.

MR KINCAID: Joe Senti was injured in the course of this attack and you testified earlier that you went to Joe Senti's house so that he could summons Mr Pretorius, do you confirm that now?

INTERPRETER: Can you please repeat the question, Sir.

MR KINCAID: Jimmy, you testified earlier that Joe Senti was attacked in this incident and that you'd gone to his house so that he could summons Mr Pretorius.

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KINCAID: How did it come about that Joe Senti was injured?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: We knocked at Mr Joe Senti's house and we asked him to open the door so that we could go in.  We wanted to ask the route or the direction to the house.  He was afraid, he did not want to open the door.  We told him that we are comrades, we just wanted to know the direction to the house and he was scared, he didn't want to open the door.
	We pleaded with him and we knocked at the windows because we wanted to explain to him that we were not there to attack him, we just wanted to know the direction to the farmhouse and we wanted to know whether the white man was there.  He didn't want to open the door.  His wife pleaded with him to open the door because she said that these people were comrades, they were not going to do anything to him.  
	He opened the door and he looked at us.  He then closed the door again and he said that he was scared to open the door for us, he thought that we were soldiers.  A shot then - we heard then a shot at the door, when he was closing the door.

MR KINCAID: Do you know who shot Joe Senti, Jimmy?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: Yes, it was - the shot came from the people that were with us.

MR KINCAID: Do you know who had the firearm which discharged the shot?

NZUNZIMA JIMMY NOKAWUSANA: It was Mzuyanda Ntonga.