Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-28

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sir, I foresaw that possibility yes, but I cannot specifically say now that "yes, he was going to be killed", but I did foresee it, yes.

MR WESSELS: Did you then start working on it?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes.

MR WESSELS: Did you do any work on Jay Naidoo?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I did work on Jay Naidoo, but I did not spend a lot of time on it.  I rather worked on the Webster case.

MR WESSELS: What did you do concerning Jay Naidoo?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I tasked certain sources that I knew in the area, I was told that he lived in Yeoville, an address was not available, but I was told that he was involved, this is information that I received from Verster, that he was involved with a white woman.  I think she was from Port Elizabeth.  I had to go and see if I could find him, and gather more information on him, which I then did.

MR WESSELS: You also at the same time, worked on the Webster case, what did you do?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, at that first opportunity I received a photograph, I have testified about that, with the newspaper clippings and the file and certain notes were made in it, two addresses and then I started, the first time I went to go and look at the physical layout of the place, the roads around it, because if I had to do observation on it, I had to find out first of all what would be a suitable place to do it from, where I won't draw a lot of attention to me.
	It was a one way, it was south/north and at the end there was a T-junction.  All these things made it very difficult to observe the house or the area.  It was a one way, and it was very easy to be spotted, once you remained there for a while.
	And then timely or untimely, during the evening, three o'clock in the morning, two o'clock in the afternoon, every time I had the opportunity, I drove there, pass, take registration numbers if there were cars outside, and tried to find out what I can observe at the house itself.
	Then at a certain stage, when I went out, I liked to go to Bedfordview, the Bedfordview Centre, friends had clubs and restaurants, I knew people who had a jewellery shop, so I liked to go there.  If I go out, let's say for a weekend with my girlfriend, Brenda Mills at that stage, I would drive passed his house.  If there was something, I would ask her to write down the registration number, then we would go out for the evening and when I come back, I would also pass the house again.
	I did it in that way, in order to form a picture about the activities surrounding the house.

MR WESSELS: Over what period ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wessels, why did you involve Brenda Mills in this at all, what ...

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, I did not know that I was going to be specifically tasked for the killing and I was careless.  I was working for the security department for the State, I told her that.  She is not a vindictive person, I probably made her that way because of my actions.
	She wouldn't have testified in that way, if I continued or continued our relationship as it was, but something happened to me that made me berserk, the drugs and all the pressure, the job and the involvement with prostitutes and other women, that made her turn at the end of the day.
	At that stage I did not foresee it at all.  She was actually my confidante.  I shared everything with her, and she worshipped the ground I walked on.

MR WESSELS: Did you also tell her at that stage that Dr Webster would be killed?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sir, I think I did admit it yes, I cannot specifically say, but the possibility is there, yes.

MR WESSELS: And how long did this observation take?

FERDINAND BARNARD: It was a few days.

MR WESSELS: What is a few days, two days or more?

FERDINAND BARNARD: It could have been more than two days, I would say five or six days.

MR WESSELS: Five or six days?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes.  It could be four days too, I am not quite sure.

MR WESSELS: And did you then find out a pattern of movement?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, I did not find out a pattern, but if I passed the house, I would see when the lights were switched off in the evening, and what activities there were in the street around the house, vehicles standing around, but I could not really establish a routine there, no.

MR WESSELS: So your information was not completed?  What Mr Verster expected from you?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I could not get a lot of information, it was a very difficult area to observe.

MR WESSELS: Did you then attend a second meeting with him?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes.

MR WESSELS: And did you then report to them that you are struggling to establish a routine or to find out what the route was?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, but I also then mentioned to Joe Verster and I confirmed Mr Webster's address because they weren't quite sure about Dunbar or Eleanor Street, addresses.  I got the registration number of one of the vehicles that he used and more than one opportunity I saw this vehicle at the Eleanor Street house.  I reported that, and the information that I had, I also told them that it then came out that Dr Webster will be killed.

MR WESSELS: How did this come up, Mr Barnard?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Joe Verster told me.

MR WESSELS: What did he say?

FERDINAND BARNARD: He told me Dr Webster had to be killed, and it was very urgent.

MR WESSELS: Did he tell you that you had to kill him?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, they told me that I had to kill him.

MR WESSELS: At that same opportunity?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes.

MR WESSELS: And what else did they tell you?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Sir, that I then had to go and do the planning about how I was going to do it.  I have already disclosed certain information or plans that I thought it would be an opportunity target.

MR WESSELS: What is an opportunity target?

FERDINAND BARNARD: If there is a suitable opportunity, the person will be killed, in other words there is not a fixed plan like the Pope, nine o'clock, he will stand on the steps of some cathedral.

MR WESSELS: There was not a specific plan that you worked out in which you would kill him, when you had the opportunity, you would kill him?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I said that, but I also thought that I would shoot him.

MR WESSELS: And you had to do this?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes.

MR WESSELS: Whenever it was convenient for you?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And did they ask you how or in what way it would take place, what weapon you would use or weren't they interested in those particulars?  Did you have to use your own discretion?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, it was precisely with this case that the presentation was made.

MR WESSELS: When you said it?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, it was upon this occasion that I said that I thought it would be most advisable to use a firearm, I foresaw that it could be a drive-by shooting, in other words as he came out of the house or as he was entering the house, and I presented it as such.  I also suggested that a firearm be used, because I foresaw that a shotgun should be used.
	It wasn't a rigid, structured pro forma which I have heard the others here, testify about.  There wasn't any talk of anything like that, it also wasn't a lengthy submission, and not many questions were asked to me.

MR WESSELS: Was it more of an informal discussion?