Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-22

MR PRIOR: When you came back into the country, South Africa, did you, what was your rank?  Did you have any rank?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I never had a rank here.

MR PRIOR: Were you familiar with the points, the 15 points of attention, of APLA?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, I know them.

MR PRIOR: And were you aware that one of those rules, I think it was rule number 11, that says do not misuse or damage people's private or public property?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, I know.

MR PRIOR: And were you aware of rule 4, which said do not forcibly take or demand anything from the masses of the people?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, I know.

MR PRIOR: And were you also aware of rule or, number 3 which said obey orders in all your actions and complain after if necessary?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, I know Sir.

MR PRIOR: In serving what were your instructions to take vehicles by force, is that correct?  Particularly from the masses?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We were forced to take it by force, because the situation was allowing us to do so.

MR PRIOR: Why didn't you simply obtain a taxi, get a ride with a taxi in to Lady Grey?

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't they want a vehicle to drive to the Police Station they were going to attack, Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: That may be so Mr Chairman, but they could have done that in Lady Grey.

CHAIRPERSON: Ceased a vehicle there?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: We wanted a bakkie specifically.

MR PRIOR: The question was, was it your instruction to obtain a vehicle by force?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It was not the instruction, but there was a reason for us to do so.

MR PRIOR: Now, the first vehicle that came past, you've agreed, you shot, it was shot by Vuyosile.  That vehicle appears to have been the property of Mr Mpela.  Mr Chairman page 40 is a statement of Mr Mpela.  He says the two people that he saw in the road ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Mr Prior, can I interrupt you for a moment on that one?

MR PRIOR: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Should we not perhaps find out from the applicant concerning the rule you have referred to, rule no 11, concerning the use or abuse or damage to people's private property?  Should we not find out from him what he understood that rule to mean?
   This rule no 11, Mr Dolo, you've just been referred to by Mr Prior, what do you understand it to mean?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: At the time, I've forgotten.

MR LAX: Rule 11 is the one that ...(inaudible) abuse property belonging to the masses.  Do you want to read the precise rule, Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Yes.  "Do not misuse or damage", it's obviously a spelling mistake, it says "Do not misuse or damage people private or public property".  I should be probably people's private or public property.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: So what is you question, Sir?

MR LAX: What do you understand that to mean?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It means that you are not to damage people's property, anything that belongs to Africans.  If you have, if you have used someone's property, you've got to leave it in good condition.  You must not leave it otherwise.  That's how I understand the rule.

MR LAX: Now comes to rule 4, "not to forcibly take or demand anything from the masses of the people."

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It says that you must not demand and take things forcibly.  To me it means that when I come here I must, when I come to a certain situation I must not demand people's things.  If I want to do something because that I know that I have a gun, I must not take people's things forcible to further my own motives.

MR LAX: But on this day the 3rd of January 1992, you tried to hijack, if I can use that expression, Mr Mpele's bakkie at gun-point?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: On that day I was not doing that for my own benefit.  That was for the progress and the success of the mission on that day, therefor we were obliged to take the bakkie forcible.  I don't think that I actually deviated from the principle of APLA in that way.

MR LAX: ...(inaudible) at page 40 in the bundle, in the third paragraph.  He says he saw two persons on the left hand side of the road as he was driving along.  He had already passed these persons when both pointed firearms at them, that is at the vehicle.  He couldn't say whether they were pistols or revolvers, but they were not rifles.  You told the Committee that only Vuyosile fired.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, I said so.

MR LAX: Did you also point your firearm at the vehicle as he has indicated?

CHAIRPERSON: The R5 rifle?

MR LAX: I'm questioning him on what the, what stands in the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: You're asking him if he pointed his firearm, and he had the R5 rifle, didn't he?

MR LAX: Surely I'm entitled to test him on, on what ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that's not what Mr Mpele says.  He says two people with pistols or revolvers, not rifles.

MR LAX: Well I don't know what, are we accepting that he just had a R5, I don't know if he had another firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: While we're on the point, why do you call it Mr Mpele's bakkie?  From what information is that based?

MR LAX: ...(inaudible), Mr Chairman.  His vehicle was shot at.  Two of his ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He was a passenger sitting in the back of the bakkie.

MR PRIOR: That's correct.  Sorry, it was, I beg your pardon, I was Mr Jam's vehicle.  Sir, I do apologise.
   Well did you point your weapon at the vehicle, let me put it that way?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes I did.

MR PRIOR: Your R5 rifle?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: You wanted to shoot at the vehicle?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The aim was to scare him, not to shoot him.

MR PRIOR: You say ...(inaudible) that two females who were driving in that vehicle were injured.  Do you accept that?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: One was Mrs Nontebo Ngojo and one was another identified person.  We don't know her name.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, I accept that, but, but I did not know that people were injured because the bakkie went on.

MR PRIOR: Was that part of the plan, was to shoot at a vehicle in order to make it stop?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The plan was to shoot in the air, not to shoot at the car.

MR PRIOR: So Vuyosile ignored the plan and shot at the bakkie, injuring at least two people?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It may be like that, but I thought that he was actually shooting in the air as I did.

MR PRIOR: Like Mr Nchane, the next bakkie that came along, was the plan the same, to point the firearms and to fire in the air in order to make him stop?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you say that you shot in the air?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I said after he had passed I shot in the air.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Which vehicle, Mr Chairman, I think there are two vehicles.  Which one is he referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: Was this the first vehicle?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I'm talking about the second bakkie, the one that I shot in the air.

CHAIRPERSON: When I've been asking you, I thought about the first bakkie.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I didn't not shoot at the first bakkie.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you point your rifle at it?  At the first bakkie?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, I pointed the rifle.

CHAIRPERSON: But you did not shoot?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, I did not shoot.

MR LAX: Just one thing, Chairperson, through you.  Why didn't you shoot into the air with regard to the second, the first bakkie?  That was the plan, wasn't it?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Only one person would shoot, not the two of us.

MR LAX: And was that part of the plan?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I told the Comrade that he must do so.  With the second bakkie I told him that I'm the one who will be shooting.

MR LAX: Well you see, why did you tell us in the beginning of you evidence that you didn't know what happened when the shooting happened?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Can you please repeat the question?