Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR BOOYENS: So we can safely assume that we are talking late October, early November?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: But you and Nick van Rensburg had already concocted this whole plan long beforehand that you were going to kill him, is that right?

DIRK COETZEE: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: That must have been, on your version, at the latest the 13th, 14th of September?

DIRK COETZEE: On the 13th of September, that's correct.

MR BOOYENS: The 13th of September.

DIRK COETZEE: Or the night that the Audi was stolen.

MR BOOYENS: Ja.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: But you are in no position to say that it as not on the night the Audi was stolen Mr Coetzee.

DIRK COETZEE: I beg your pardon?

MR BOOYENS: It was on the night that the Audi was stolen?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: And it's been objectively established that that was the 13th of September.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: And you accept that date?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman if the police records are correct.  That was submitted....

MR BOOYENS: Ja, well if the police were trying to cook the records Mr Coetzee surely they would have cooked the records to make it October, the date when they say he was released, not in September not so?

DIRK COETZEE: No I don't think the Uniform branch had any part in this story so it should be the honest dates Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: On that date van Rensburg, and I just want to try and understand your motivations, on that date van Rensburg told you about what really amounts to a private problem for the Security branch in Port Elizabeth, right?

DIRK COETZEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And you agreed and volunteered to help him with his private problem because if they injured the man so badly they were now trying to get rid of a potential witness that had nothing to do with politics?

DIRK COETZEE: Well I wouldn't say it's a private problem, it's a police problem the same as Steve Biko.

MR BOOYENS: You didn't refer to your superior?

DIRK COETZEE: I did report back to Brigadier Schoon and was eventually ordered by him to meet up with Mr van Rensburg at Komatipoort.

MR BOOYENS: No but before you agreed with van Rensburg that you would do the job it was - you didn't even go back to Schoon, is that right?

DIRK COETZEE: No the procedure was to discuss it with him and then clear it with my superiors.

MR BOOYENS: And you cleared this with Brigadier Schoon?

DIRK COETZEE: I did Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Did you inform Mr van Rensburg that you will have to clear this?

DIRK COETZEE: It was common knowledge and common practice in the security police.

MR BOOYENS: The question is did you inform him, yes or no?

DIRK COETZEE: The fact that he phoned Brigadier Schoon I would say, I can't remember exactly, but I would say yes, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: You see Mr van Rensburg said he contacted you directly Mr....

DIRK COETZEE: No it's not true Mr Chairman, I was ordered by Brigadier Schoon.  I couldn't have just left Pretoria without the permission of my commanding officer.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Coetzee now you've had enough problems in your life I think with people accusing you, making the wrong statements etc, etc.

DIRK COETZEE: More than enough Mr Chairman, but luckily I think I have been vindicated, well in a fairly large way.

MR BOOYENS: Let's just first deal with one small aspect.  Your whole story started when you told Jacques Paauw about the fact that you were involved in all these problems with the Security police and so on, is that right?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct, on Mauritius.

MR BOOYENS: And obviously that statement was never made under oath, one accepts that, but you were trying to be as accurate as possible not so?

DIRK COETZEE: Well under the circumstances, yes Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Now if the Commission would just bear with me Mr Chairman.  Mr Coetzee if you would be so kind to go to page 28 of Volume 3.  These are apparently extracts - your so-called Mauritius Statement.  There at page 28, this is apparently an extract from what you told Jacques Paauw, it's a question and answer session and if you go to the second  - "wag nou ees" - "no wait a minute".

DIRK COETZEE: I have got it Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Page 28, could you just read that into the record Mr Coetzee.

DIRK COETZEE: "No wait now, I see him there.  Now I was there with the men from PE Security and they told me that this was a chap that came from Lesotho.  Bloemfontein had had him and his car was also somewhere there. It was a Datsun Coupe, two door, if I can remember correctly.  I did not see the car at that stage but in any case they kept him in the single quarters, or detained him there.  At a stage his hands were behind his back..."
and then I was interrupted again.

MR BOOYENS: That's far enough Mr Coetzee.  "I did not see the car at that stage".

DIRK COETZEE: I did put it straight in the Harms Commission too and said if you read it in context and it couldn't have been, it was a slip of the mind, the fact is that I did see the car there, and I stand by it.

MR BOOYENS: So you did - no wait a bit, so your mind slipped when you were speaking to Jacques Paauw about the car, is that what you are saying?

DIRK COETZEE: Ja.  Can I just put it to the Commission ...(intervention)

MR BOOYENS: Just answer the question yes or no.

DIRK COETZEE: Whilst ...(intervention)

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman with the greatest of respect my learned friend asks a question, "your mind slipped", surely the witness can explain something in addition, why his mind slipped?  I think it's only fair for him to complete his answer.

DIRK COETZEE: I beg your pardon, I couldn't hear Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

DIRK COETZEE: Mr Chairman I left the country on the Sunday with Jacques Paauw for Mauritius, slept in Curapepe(?) the first night in an hotel.  It was travelling the whole of the next day in a car to get accommodation because everything was disorganised as unorganised Jacques Paauw only can be as a journalist, with all respect.  We eventually arrived the Monday afternoon late on a northern holiday resort on the island.  He started with his recordings.  The Tuesday morning in-between organising and contacting London after driving back to Port Louis to get some money, 360 pounds which I would have need of to get into London with a return air ticket and money, and in-between that rush with my family left behind and my two kids, torn apart, feeling like a traitor towards my own Afrikaner people, not knowing what to expect up-front, I can assure you I wasn't meeting in hotels with ex-colleagues to refresh my memory and to just sit in a relaxing way and give my story.  So I did slip on occasions, yes Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And you did say to Jacques Paauw that you didn't see the car, that's really the bottom line?

DIRK COETZEE: As indicated in this I did not, in "daai stadium" and as you can see Mr Chairman interrupted again, every five seconds being interrupted because his, the information he's looking for is completely different as a journalist than a court of law would look for.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.  Okay Mr Coetzee ...(intervention)

DIRK COETZEE: I would just like to tell Mr Chairman I couldn't even remember Joe Mamasela's surname.  I couldn't remember the surnames of the white police colleagues working with me ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Okay at that stage you couldn't remember anything but today your memory is fresh about it, so we will continue then.

DIRK COETZEE: It's been refreshed, that's correct Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And obviously since Mauritius you had no memory problems?  The Harms Commission you had no memory problems.  Amnesty application you had no memory problems, is that correct?

DIRK COETZEE: No I wouldn't say that.  I have told my story over so many times and I did slip on occasions with facts.