Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:   Well, they were - I must repeat that this plan started from a specific point and it developed.  You know, what happened on the third day and what happened on the seventh day I am not in a position to tell you.  I can recall that our people assisted wounded people, took them to hospitals, and things like that.  So it was a situation that the security forces were in, and the decisions that were made on grass roots level - I mean they were made because of prevailing circumstances at the time.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  Do you agree that the resources which were available to you were not adequate?

WITNESS:   I will concede to that.  They were not adequate to deal with a situation of that scale.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  But, having said that, do you agree that if you had six armoured vehicles with - what do they hold, 10, 20  men each?

WITNESS:   10.  10 each.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  10 men each.  If you had 60 armed men on top of armoured vehicles patrolling those valleys you could have prevented loss of life and damage to property, rather than on the Edendale Road.

WITNESS:   Well, Sir, I mean that must be true.  The presence of the troops on the Edendale Road also prevented specific things which were planned for.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  It's just one last question.  Do you consider yourself responsible for the planning that did not go well?

WITNESS:   Madam, in retrospect, a plan was made to cater for a specific situation.  I still believe that, given the specific circumstances of that time, that was the correct decision to take.  I hold nobody responsible for making specific decisions, because this tragedy in the Edendale Valley happened, and it escalated to the extent that the previous speakers described to us.  And, quite frankly, in retrospect I hold nobody responsible for making specific decisions.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  So, just to recap, are you saying that had your people been deployed at the time when people were making telephone calls to the police, to the newspapers, and to your headquarters - people were making phone calls pleading for the Defence Force to come into these areas, had those soldiers and those armoured vehicles been immediately deployed in the areas where people were being killed, where houses were being burned and looted, do you not agree that lives could have been saved, many, many lives could have been saved?

WITNESS:   That is a difficult thing for me to respond to.  Of course if 60 troops arrives in an area, yes, of course they will be able to prevent things happening.  But it didn't happen that way.  I believe that people, maybe some relatively junior people, had to contain a specific situation, and, you know, to be fair to anybody involved in these things, and also knowing that area, it is most difficult for any commander on the ground to make decisions that will historically be proved to be correct or incorrect.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  Yes, Brigadier, I know that we now have the benefit of hindsight, but I maintain, and I think many observers and monitors and witnesses who have given evidence here also maintain, that the presence of the Defence Force was absolutely vital to maintain law and order in those regions.  Everyone said that.  And the only thing that the residents of those valleys did not see were members of the Defence Force, until way, way after the death and destruction had happened, many, many days after.

WITNESS:   Sir, that is quite true for the simple reason that those people, the limited numbers of people, were involved in a small area in that place.  But I again want to say that, also having the benefit of hindsight, that if we did have, you know, all the military equipment and forces that we got a little bit later on, we would have been in a better situation to deal with that situation in the Edendale Valley.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  One of the speakers yesterday, Mr Radley Keys for the Democratic Party, said after much intervention, pleading, begging, the Defence Force finally agreed to be deployed - I am not quite sure which date it was, but they - it was on the 29th, which was the Thursday, and the Defence Force apparently were deployed at Huletts Aluminium on the main road to Edendale, where they waited for some hours, and there was an expectation that they would then enter the strife-torn area.  It was in fact Imbali township.  And the Defence Force vehicles waited at Huletts Aluminium for some time.  They did not in fact enter Imbali and they returned to base.  Do you recall that incident?

WITNESS:   I don't recall an incident like that, Sir.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  Well, evidence was given to that effect by Mr Radley Keys yesterday, that he phoned the police and Group Nine to persuade them to send troops into Imbali - sorry, it wasn't Radley Keys, it was Professor John Aitchison - and that in fact after an initial agreement to deploy the troops in Imbali a decision must have been taken not to deploy them in Imbali, and the vehicles returned to base.  You don't remember that at all?

WITNESS:   I don't remember that at all.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  Brigadier, sorry, I just want to return back to this planning, if I may, because ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   Yes, sure.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  ... clearly you believed at the time that the appropriate deployment of your forces was on the Edendale Road.  Let me just say that, unlike my colleagues, I fully understand your position.  I just want to clear this up before I go on to the question.  In terms of the Defence Act the military may not be deployed in an urban area and under normal circumstances except under command of the SAP, and except where martial law has been declared.

WITNESS:  Yes.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  I just want to put that on the table so everyone understands that.  Is that correct?

WITNESS:   I must qualify, Sir, the command part of what you are saying.  It is essentially true that if the Defence Force deploys in any situation now, without an emergency situation and so on, that the police are in control.  But the Defence Force members remains under the command of their own people. Fair enough.   ---   So essentially the police are still the main role-players, they are in control, yes, it is quite correct.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  So obviously if the police say, "Get out of an area," you don't argue, you just get out.

WITNESS:   As I stated to the lady earlier, I believe that any decision like that must be, and as far as I know normally will be, a joint decision.  In other words the two commanders on the ground will assess the situation and they will make a decision that will solve the developing situation on the ground there.  I believe it's a joint thing.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  But clearly if they can't reach agreement what the police guy says is what will go at the end of the day.

WITNESS:   Yes, that I think is essentially true, yes.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  Okay.  I just want to come back to the planning issues, as I said earlier.  You've told us that in terms of your plan your forces would be deployed along the Edendale Road to keep the road open.

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir.

JOHANN MATHYS ADAM SWANEPOEL:  Where were the other forces to be deployed, and what was the plan in that regard?  In other words where were the police people going to be?  You would have had to know where they were going to be as you had a plan.