Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-03

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mtambo, with due respect, that is not the evidence that you led before this Committee, you stated categorically that you knew where mr Phumayo stayed.  This is the evidence I vividly recall.

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: When I said I know his house, I meant his parents' house.  If I went to attack him at his parents' house, I was going to end up hurting other people, like old people.  I didn't want that to happen.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you really want us to believe that when you said his house, you meant his parents' house and you didn't want to hurt other people?
	My simple question is, you knew where Phumayo lived, that is your evidence, I've got a note here.  When questions were put to you by Mr Lax, your answer was very specific.  You said you knew where Phumayo lived, whether that be his parents' house or whether that be his own house, that is neither here nor there.  You knew where he lived.

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why are you being dishonest in that point?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: The situation was bad and in my mind, it didn't occur that I can use this type of method in order to attack or to kill.

CHAIRPERSON: In fact, to correct myself, you stated that you knew where Phumayo lived when you were being cross-examined by Ms Thabete, according to my notes.
	Your answer was very clear, yes, I knew where Phumayo lived and that his house was very far.  No, it was put to you that his house was very far from, no his house was quite nearer to Maria's house, and your response was, no, his house was very far from Maria's house, thus confirming that you really knew where Phumayo lived.

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, I knew him.

CHAIRPERSON: Why are you being dishonest?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: My apologies there.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know Mr Tunzi?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Mtunzi or Tunzi?

CHAIRPERSON: It could have been Mtunzi?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, I do know him.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know him?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: As I have already explained that he was the Chairman of the Youth Brigade, his name is Mtunzi Mote.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it the same person who is referred to in the criminal court judgement on page 22, last paragraph, second line Mr Claassen?
	Do you remember the evidence that was led during your criminal trial and the testimony of one Absolom Mkwetrani, who stated that he saw you handing the gun that you had used to shoot Mr Phumayo, to a person who was then referred to as Tunzi, who then climbed in through the window of a nearby house?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: This statement was mentioned by a witness in court, and it wasn't true.  I took the gun and I hid it under the coal.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the Tunzi who is being referred to in this judgement?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know him?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: As a member of IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it the same person as Mtunzi?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, he is.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he there when you shot Mr Phumayo?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, he was.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he with you when you shot Mr Phumayo?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, he was with me but when I shot Mr Phumayo, he wasn't there.  I shot him when I was alone.

CHAIRPERSON: When you came out of maria's house, after having noticed Mr Phumayo next to the electrical box, did you come out of that house with Mr Tunzi?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: No, I wasn't with him.  I didn't mention anything to him.  I only told him after I had done so and I told him that I was the one who killed him.

CHAIRPERSON: When you said earlier on that Mr Tunzi was there when you shot Mr Phumayo, what did you mean, at which stage was he there when you shot Mr Phumayo?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Tunzi wasn't there.  Maybe I made a mistake, my apology there.  He wasn't there when this incident occurred, I was alone.  My apologies there.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you come to make this mistake?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Maybe I didn't understand exactly what the question referred to, whether you were referring that he was right at the scene of the incident, or inside the house.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought my question was quite clear.  I haven't written it down,but i seem to recall myself saying was Tunzi there when you shot Mr Phumayo and your response was yes.

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes, it is like that, that is why I am asking for an apology because I didn't understand well.  I didn't get it whether the Chairperson meant if he was present at the scene of the incident, or inside the house, Maria's house.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I mean if - the question was, was Tunzi there when you shot Mr Phumayo, why should it be difficult, why should it ascertain information other than what it is intended to?  Was he there when Phumayo was shot, and the simple answer was yes.
	Why should you think that I meant whether he was in Maria's house because we are talking about the shooting of Phumayo, which on your version, occurred next to the electrical box, and definitely not in Maria's house.

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: It is not clear to me and my apologies.

CHAIRPERSON: You again made a mistake there?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You also made a mistaken in your application, on page 8 when you said that you shot Mr Phumayo on self defence, after he had attempted to shoot you?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: It is not true that he was trying to shoot me.  The truth is that I am the one who shot him.  He didn't try to shoot me.  He didn't even try to look for something or to fight back.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now why did you lie when you were applying for amnesty?  You have used the words I lied, now why did you lie?  You say that those were lies, why did you lie when applying for amnesty?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Chairperson, my apologies, these were my attempts trying to get out or to avoid being sentenced, but now that I am here before this Commission, I am telling the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but now you didn't lie in court, you are lying when completing an application form for amnesty?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I don't remember very well because the person who came to see me in prison, to take a statement, he was in a hurry.  He didn't even give me a chance to try and picture as to what happened on that day.
	Now that we are talking about this, it comes back to my mind as to what happened, what exactly happened on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Who assisted you in completing your application form, that is the one dated the 30th of September 1997 at Barberton?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: One guy who came and told me he was sent by Attorneys and his name is Lucas Louw.

CHAIRPERSON: Which Attorneys were those, were those your lawyers?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I only know of Mr Van der Merwe.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he purport to come from Mr Van der Merwe's office?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You trusted him because he came from your own lawyer?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: No, I didn't trust him.  The only person I used to trust was Mr Van der Merwe, and he used to come on his own, if ever we needed to fix something.

CHAIRPERSON: But this person came from Mr Van der Merwe's office, that is your evidence?  Why should you not trust him?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: What I can say is that in that prison where I am staying, me and other IFP members, who are in prison, we are facing hardship.  That is why I didn't trust this person who said he was from Nelspruit Van der Merwe, I didn't trust him.

CHAIRPERSON: But you went on again, and signed a statement.  Do you recall signing this statement, which appears on page 28?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: I remember very well.

CHAIRPERSON: And in that statement, you again allege that you shot Mr Phumayo in self defence after he had attempted to take out his firearm to shoot at you?  It is then that you immediately shot him back on the side of his head?

SOLOMON COLLEN MTAMBO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that also a mistake?