Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-18

MR PANDAY: No.  Sorry Mr Chairperson, the applicant he indicated he had two witnesses to be called namely his brothers.  Their affidavits are reflected on pages 30 to 39.  Now his sister is present and we've taken note that the brothers are not present.  Can I just confirm with the applicant that he still requires his brothers to give evidence and have that placed on record, Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Mr Mkhize, during consulting with you, you indicated that you had two brothers, B Mkhize and M Mkhize who will be giving evidence at your application.  Now they are not present.  Do you still require them to give evidence at your application?

MANDLEKAHISE JOSESPH MKHIZE: Yes I still do require them because they were the people who came to Umbumbulo to fetch me when they were being harassed.  What I think is that they were not told as to when the Committee is going to sit and where the Committee is going to sit because I communicated with them over the phone.

MR PANDAY: Sorry Mr Chairperson?  I think the applicant indicates that he would like for them to be present.

CHAIRPERSON: And what are they going to say, can you just explain to us?

MR PANDAY: I think the affidavit reads simply that they merely confirm in terms of the conflict, the tribal conflict that had taken place in the mid Illovo area, that's on pages 30 to 39.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes let's have a look at that?  Is that in dispute in this case?  Let's see?

MR PANDAY: I do not believe it to be in dispute Mr Chairperson as the brothers will merely testify that there was a conflict and that part of the tribe had followers to the IFP side and the other part had gone onto the ANC side.  The only thing is that they may really be able to collate the events a bit better as opposed to what the applicant has but the essence I believe is still the same Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well should you not listen to what evidence is tendered in opposition to your client's case because we're not quite sure at this stage exactly what the opposition is?

MR PANDAY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then reassess your position and consult with your client and hear whether this sort of thing is strictly necessary?  But if it's not really in dispute then it doesn't really assist the matter so perhaps you should hold back what you intend to do.

MR PANDAY: As the Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well is provisionally the evidence that you had?

MR PANDAY: Yes Mr Chairperson.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Sibeko, do you intend to tender any evidence in opposition to this?

MR SIBEKO: Yes Mr Chairperson.  Yes I'll call Mr Ntshangase Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Crawford Sipho Ntshangase, do you want to call him as a witness?

MR SIBEKO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes where's Mr Ntshangase, let him sit there next to you.

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: As the Committee pleases.
	Mr Ntshangase, is it correct that you were a sergeant attached with the South African Police Station at Illovo?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Yes that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: For long have you been stationed in the mid Illovo area?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: I've been there for approximately 10 years.

MR SIBEKO: Now Sir, you have heard the evidence which of course has been led by the applicant in his application for amnesty, is that correct?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Yes that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Now we have heard that he's asking amnesty for the action which took place on the 25th March 1999?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Yes that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Now can you tell this Committee briefly as to events which led to what happened on the said day?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: In fact I was investigating a case of attempted murder against Mr Mkhize.  Then Mr Mkhize was arrested, given bail, but at a certain time he failed to appear before the court and then there was a warrant of arrest issued against Mr Mkhize.

MR SIBEKO: Now this attempted murder case which subsequently was granted bail, did it emanate from - was it due to a political conflict happening in the area or what was it all about?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: No, as far as I know there was no political activities in the mid Illovo area.  This thing only operated from the faction fighting that was taking place in the mid Illovo area.

MR SIBEKO: Now are you familiar with the applicant in this case?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Now for how long have you been in the area?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: I've been in the area for ten years but I've known the applicant for almost about three years.

MR SIBEKO: That is three years before this incident then?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Yes before this incident took place.

MR SIBEKO: Now on this fateful day what happened?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Sir I went to Mr Ngete's kraal together with my colleagues.  When I got to Mr Ngete's house I knocked at the door, identified myself, Sergeant Ntshangase from mid Illovo Police and then I requested the applicant before court
to open the house.  Just after I identified myself to the applicant there was a gunshot fired right at the door.

MR SIBEKO: Now who was it you were with at the time when you approached the place?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: It was Sergeant Dlamuga, Sergeant Kulu, Sergeant Ralu, Sergeant Osborne, Inspector Dippenaar, Sergeant Nyembe and Sergeant Gcabashe.

CHAIRPERSON: How many people did you name now?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Nine, nine altogether.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you colleagues, you were also stationed at the same place?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Yes that is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So including yourself it was nine?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Carry on.

MR SIBEKO: Now Sir, why was it necessary for you all nine of you to approach the Ngete's kraal, nine of you because instead of going two or three of you apprehending the applicant?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: No the fact is that it was dark at night and then we had received information that the applicant was already in possession of a hand grenade.

MR SIBEKO: Now you say that when you arrived there you identified yourself.  How did you identify yourself?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: By shouting loud, saying that I'm Sergeant Ntshangase from mid Illovo Police and asked the accused to open the door, I was coming to arrest him in connection with the attempted murder case that he was charged for.

MR SIBEKO: Now after you had said that what happened?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Just after I'd said that there was gunshot fired at the door where I was standing next to it then after that there was a hand grenade thrown at the same time after that shot was fired.

MR SIBEKO: Now this hand grenade which was thrown at you, did anyone sustain any injuries?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: The hand grenade was thrown through the window and Sergeant Dlamugo who was Constable Dlamugo at that time was injured.

MR SIBEKO: Now after then, this episode of you having one of your members injured as result of the hand grenade thrown at you, then what was your reaction, what did you do?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: There were gunshots fired by the police to the hut where the applicant was.

MR SIBEKO: Now this gunshot was it before the throwing of the hand grenade or after the hand grenade was thrown at you?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: The gunshots were fired by the police after the hand grenade was thrown out.

MR SIBEKO: Now did anyone who was inside the house injured as a result of your gunshot?

CRAWFORD SIPHO NTSHANGASE: Nobody was injured at the house.

MR SIBEKO: Now you have heard furthermore the applicant stating that there has been some instances where of course you were colluding with the IFP members in the area attacking some people of Empangesa area?