Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-10

MR VISSER: In due course Mr Chairman.  In point of fact, as in the past Mr Chairman, you will find that because it relates really to background studies and so on, it is more conveniently dealt with in written argument and not in the evidence, so we won't burden you today over much, with reference thereto.
	In this particular case of Mr Rosslee, I think there are two brief references, but we certainly won't labour the going through those documents with you during this hearing.
	Secondly Mr Rosslee, if I may proceed, the written submissions which were handed in Gen Johannes Velder van der Merwe, to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which is in Zandile, volume 1, page 126 - 156 and then there is a statement attached to the previous document, which I have referred to, a statement by previous Commissioners of Police and that is contained in Zandile, volume 1 pages 157 - 168.
	Lastly, Mr Rosslee is it correct that you have been informed of certain evidence which was presented by ex-Minister of Law and Order, Mr Adrian Vlok and Gen Van der Merwe in the
COSATU House/Khotso House application for amnesty, and you find yourself in agreement and you make common cause generally with their evidence.  Is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Will you please now Mr Rosslee, take over and inform the Committee, tell the Committee something about yourself, your personal background, etc.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I was born in 1960 in Pretoria, I was raised in a pretty conservative and disciplined household.  I was raised with the understanding or the belief that the government of the day, which was then the National Party, was the party to support.
	Prominent people in my childhood, through my schooling, etc, supported and grew that belief in me.

MR VISSER: Yes, when you refer to prominent people, what type of people do you refer to, who expressed opinions about the government policy of the day when you were growing up, what type of person are you referring to?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: It would be obviously politicians that we had heard on radio and so forth, teachers, business people that we came into contact with.

MR VISSER: Even ministers of the church?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Ministers as well.

MR VISSER: Was it fashionable in those days when you grew up, post 1960 say to 1970, 1975, was it fashionable to criticise the government policy of separate development or apartheid?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I believe it was not fashionable to criticise that.  I think the majority of the people, and certainly my belief at that time was that that was the policy to go with.

MR VISSER: As is manifested by the fact that election after election, the same party was voted in as the government, isn't that so?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You joined the police in 1978, is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you have set out a summary at pages 22 and page 23, pages 22 and 23, of the Bhila volume 1, is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And just to summarise it if I may, for purposes of saving time, you in fact had more than one force number, is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You joined the police in January of the year 1978 and you were first stationed in the Uniform Branch from July 1978 and you did five tours of duty in South West Africa and two trips of duty on the RSA borders of the RSA and Botswana and the far Northern Transvaal, would that be correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: You were placed with the Security Branch, Northern Transvaal in their division of VIP bodyguards in 1980?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you first left the South African Police in 1981?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is right.

MR VISSER: In 1981 - 1983, you did the two call ups in South West Africa?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And in 1984, you got shot by an anti-tank missile, is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: The vehicle I was driving in, got shot out.

MR VISSER: Well, got shot out, yes all right.  I am sorry yes, I said you got shot, the vehicle got shot.
	In 1986 you were recruited to Vlakplaas.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And in May 1987, you resigned from the South African Police, would that be correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Would you please, if you would Mr Rosslee, just tell the Committee something about the influences upon you flowing from your duties and experiences as a policeman in the service of the South African Police.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: During that time, the very strong influences on myself and I am sure a lot of other serving policemen to the political circumstances in the country at that stage, was the rioting and civil unrest that was rife then.
	The many deaths, injuries and damage to property, attacks against the (indistinct), including police officers and police stations, were virtually everyday occurrences then.

MR VISSER: Were you personally exposed to situations and incidents of violence?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: On many occasions Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Did you see people who had died as a result of attacks?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I had seen quite a lot of them.

MR VISSER: All right, yes, we won't go into the details of that Mr Rosslee, I know it is painful for you to recall.  Would you please continue.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I think what probably had the biggest effect on me, was when the liberation forces started targeting civilians and at that stage, I was at the Security Branch, doing ANC/PAC investigations and came into very close contact with those victims, being either policemen or civilians that had been murdered, petrol bombed, shot or whatever.
	During my experience in the bush, I was in various contacts, I've been in landmine explosions, also seen civilians blown up by landmines, I have been blown up by landmines and that had a very deep and lasting effect on me.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before we go on, could I interrupt here.  Could I interrupt, could you indicate the rank you held at various times.

MR VISSER: Would you please do that Mr Rosslee?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, until approximately 1984 or 1985, I held the rank of  Constable and then was promoted to the rank of Sergeant.

MR VISSER: That was your last increase in rank, is that correct?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Rosslee, it is a matter of history now that your experiences through these years, in the South African Police caused you to suffer certain psychological effects.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Can you just inform the Committee about that?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I have been under psychological treatment and diagnosed with chronic post-traumatic stress disorder as a result of experiences during my time in the South African Police.

MR VISSER: Have you received treatment for that?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I have been hospitalised and have received treatment Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Are you presently receiving treatment?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I am.

MR VISSER: Are there problems with your medical aid fund for payment of these treatments?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: To a large degree, I haven't had medical aid since April last year.

MR VISSER: And do you have to fund your treatment on your own?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I do.

MR VISSER: There is a report placed before the Committee, marked Exhibit C1, of a certain Russel E. Matthews, who describes himself as a Clinical Phycologist and according to his report, it appears that you have been divorced for 11 years at the time when he saw you in January 1997?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Chair.