Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-13

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: Where do the comrades belong, to which organisation?

MR LOWIES: Second point ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rahantlhane, counsel has the right to ask you questions and you have to answer those questions.  If there are any questions that you want to ask you can tell your legal representatives to ask those questions on your behalf, do you understand that?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: He has put to you two propositions.  The first one is that you are denying deliberately your political affiliation, so what do you say to that, do you agree with him or don't you agree with him?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: I disagree with him that I was involved in politics.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  What was the second proposition, Mr Lowies?

MR LOWIES: I'll phrase it as follows.  It's common cause that the SDUs were busy that night with patrols on the 17th, yet you pretend not to even know about them, whilst you were a member of a group patrolling.

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: When I answered you, Mr Lowies, I said as a parent or the father in a household, when it is said that you should go and patrol, you have to go, you cannot expect other men to do that for you.  That is why I went out.  I also went there because I was a member of the Boipatong community.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Lowies is putting to you, and listen very carefully, he says it is common knowledge that the Self Defence Units patrolled the township.  What do you say to that?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: Even if it was like that, what I'm saying is that at that time I was patrolling, I was not belonging to a political party, I went out there to patrol because I was a member of the community.

MR LOWIES: ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR LOWIES: On your version you only saw one vehicle that night, police vehicle?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: That's correct.

MR LOWIES: Because in paragraph 2.6 of the memorandum which I've referred you to, mention is made of armed vehicles at the specific street, Baralong.  It reads as follows"
"Armed vehicles dispersed other groups of youths at the corner of Baralong and Thaba Baseu Street, at all the intersections along Amatola Street and Umzimvubu Street."
Do you know anything about this?

CHAIRPERSON: Well that's a matter of interpretation you know.  These armed vehicles, there may have been one at the corner of Baralong and Thaba Baseu, another one at the intersection of Amatola Street and Umzimvubu Street.

MR LOWIES: I retract the question, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so I think it would be unfair to put it to him.

MR LOWIES: I hear what you say, Chairman.
	Now did you only patrol in Baralong Street that night, the night of the 17th?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: That's correct.

MR LOWIES: You did not hear other vehicles, you only saw this one vehicle?  When I say other vehicles, vehicles like a Koyoco.

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: I only saw one vehicle.

MR LOWIES: Chair, could you just bear with me for a second?
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MR LOWIES: Did you see the occupants of the Koyoco on the night in question?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: I did not see them.

MR LOWIES: Are you sure that Afrikaans was spoken on that night, by the people inside the Koyoco?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: I said they said in Zulu: "Go and sleep".  I never mentioned Afrikaans.

MR LOWIES: That night you did not hear Afrikaans?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: No, I did not.

MR LOWIES: Because initially you said the people also spoke Zulu and Afrikaans.  It appears to me you are trying to put white people on the scene that night and that is why there's now a discrepancy, because you forgot the lies that you told earlier.

CHAIRPERSON: What is being put to you, Mr Rahantlhane, is that what was conveyed to us by the interpreter is that you said they spoke in Afrikaans and in Zulu.  Did they speak in Afrikaans and in Zulu?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: They spoke in Zulu, but you could hear that the person who was speaking was an Afrikaans-speaking person, when he said: "Go and sleep", in isiZulu.

CHAIRPERSON: So they did not speak in Afrikaans?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: No, they did not.

MR LOWIES: But if they spoke Zulu, how could you hear that they were Afrikaans and not Sotho, or any other language for that matter?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: If you are a Zulu it's easy to hear that.  Even if a white person, when he speaks Zulu you can heard that he's a white person.

MR LOWIES: So it sounded like it's a white person speaking Zulu?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: That's correct.

MR LOWIES: Now these 10 to 15 chaps that were with you that night patrolling, did you ever go to Thaba Baseu?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean these 15 chaps or him?

MR LOWIES: It was you and them.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) they were patrolling in and around that area.

MR LOWIES: Sorry.  You and them.

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: No, we never went to Thaba Baseu.

MR LOWIES: Just to get it clear; not you, not them, as far as you know?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: I'm speaking on my behalf because I never went to Thaba Baseu.

MR LOWIES: Do you know Mr Baloyi, the previous witness?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: The first time that I knew is here at these hearings.

MR LOWIES: He said the purpose of the barricades was to keep the police and other attackers out of Boipatong, do you deny this?  I'm specifically talking about the purpose to keep the police out of Boipatong.

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: I said the main reason for the barricades was to prevent the hit and run cars that would come into Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: Did you want the police in Boipatong?  Did you have a problem with them going into Boipatong, because Mr Baloyi says they did not want, the people did not want police inside Boipatong.  What is your version?

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: That time I never had problems with the police, I loved them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, next question please.

MR LOWIES: I'm almost finished, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I mean if you're looking for the notes, let somebody else go on.

MR LOWIES: Sir, there is good news, I'm really within my last one or two questions.  So I'm almost there.
	Now did your girlfriend sleep that night when you got into bed, was she already asleep?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

THABO JOHANNES RAHANTLHANE: ...(no English interpretation)

MR LOWIES: I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOWIES

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Pretorius, do you have any questions?

MS PRETORIUS: Only one or two, Chair.

MR STRYDOM: Chair, before my learned friend proceeds ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And then do you have any?  Would you have any, Ms Tanzer?

MS TANZER: One or two.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Mr Mapoma?  I'm trying to assess whether we should try and finish this witness now or whether we should, so that he doesn't have to come here tomorrow if not necessary.  Because if we're going to be long with him, we might as well adjourn at this stage.

MS PRETORIUS: Chair, I can't give a promise that it will only be 10 minutes, because I can't limit myself to that.  It may be a bit longer than that.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well.  Did you want to say something?