Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-30

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Nel?

MR NEL: Thank you Chairperson, I'm going to call the next applicant who is Mr Duhr.  May I just ask your indulgence for one second?  They were in the passage a short while ago and I've asked Mr Botha to just have a look where they are.

CHAIRPERSON: That will be Exhibit H?

MR NEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan and Mr Lalla, have you now got copies of these exhibits, that's the one by Mr Duhr.  That's H, J is the one of Mr Bothma.

MR DUHR: (sworn states)

MR NEL: Mr Duhr, am I correct in saying that you are an amnesty applicant in terms of the Act for an assault which you have described in your amnesty application which is found on page 16 of the bundle and may I ask you to confirm your entire application which runs to page 19 except for where you have given your address as Panorama Park in Illovo Beach, you no longer reside there?

MR DUHR: Yes that is correct, Chairperson.

MR NEL: You confirm the correctness of the rest of your application?

MR DUHR: I do.

MR NEL: Mr Duhr, you've heard me ask this question for the previous applicant.  I want to refer you to Exhibits A, B and C which serves before this Committee which was handed in as an exhibit on a previous occasion, you also like the previous applicant had the opportunity to peruse these documents.  Do you confirm the contents thereof as far as your knowledge is concerned and do you ask that these also be incorporated as part of your amnesty application?

MR DUHR: Yes I do, Chairperson.

MR NEL: Also with regards to the evidence given by Mr Botha and Mr Greyling, do you confirm the evidence they have given insofar as the correctness thereof and as far as it concerns you?

MR DUHR: I do.

MR NEL: May I then immediately refer you to Exhibit H which is in front of you which is a summary of the incident and can I confirm that during 1990 you were stationed at Durban as a member of the security branch.  Can you just tell this Committee what your rank at the time was?

MR DUHR: I was a lieutenant at the time, Chairperson.

MR NEL: Is it also then correct that you were part of a number of investigators who were at the time busy with interrogation inter alia of Mr Gordhan with regards to what as known then as Operation Vula?

MR DUHR: Yes that is correct.

MR NEL: Can you in your own words then briefly just tell us your involvement in the assault upon Mr Gordhan?

MR DUHR: Well, Chairperson, I see there is a summary here, maybe I should just go ahead and read the summary?

MR NEL: Please do.

MR DUHR: Thank you.
"During this period of time I was part of a group that interrogated Mr Pravine Gordhan in Bethlehem.  At one such interrogation session which was conducted by Colonel Hentie Botha, I was present in the office when Mr Gordhan was assaulted by being suffocated."

MR NEL: Am I correct in saying that you were not actually part of the assault itself but you were present and you were tasked to take notes if necessary?

MR DUHR: That is correct, Chairperson.  If I can continue
"After a short while when it became apparent that Mr Gordhan refused to answer any questions put to him, the interrogation and assault was ceased. I've stated my political objective in my amnesty application and request that it be taken into account by this Committee.  I received no reward nor did I personally gain by my actions nor was I driven by malice or spite.  I request that this Committee consider my amnesty application favourably."

MR NEL: Mr Duhr, it's correct that you were involved in questioning Mr Gordhan before the actual incident of the assault, is that correct?

MR DUHR: That is correct, I was tasked, myself and one of my colleagues, Inspector Bothma, at the time, we were tasked to question Mr Gordhan at Bethlehem.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say that you were tasked to question Mr Gordhan was that immediately on the same day or had you been in Bethlehem for some time?

MR DUHR: No, I'd been tasked shortly after his arrest, we were tasked by the then Lieutenant Colonel Botha to go ahead with the interrogation.

CHAIRPERSON: So who was tasked to deal with Mr Gordhan, yourself and anyone else?

MR DUHR: That would be myself and Inspector Frans Bothma, Chairperson.

MR NEL: Thank you Chairperson, that is the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, do you have any questions you wish to ask?

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Duhr, I'm not certain that I quite heard you, you were tasked to question whom?  Mr Lalla or Mr Gordhan?

MR DUHR: That will be Mr Gordhan.

MR VISSER: Mr Gordhan.  Now what was your experience of the attitude of Mr Gordhan during your questioning of him prior to the day of the assault?

MR DUHR: My experience was with Mr Gordhan that he was a reasonably calm person you know but at the same time uncooperative as far as certain questions were concerned pertaining to the Vula investigation.

MR VISSER: And on the day of the assault was that on that day also your impression that he wasn't going to cooperate?

MR DUHR: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Can you at all remember what Botha questioned him about?

MR DUHR: I think one or two of the questions I can remember.  Primarily the question obviously being as previously testified, the identity of The Owl, I think that was the primary question which was levelled to Mr Gordhan and there were one or two questions pertaining to the Vula investigation itself but that was secondary to that.

MR VISSER: Right and were you present from the time when Mr Botha commenced his questioning of Mr Gordhan to the end?

MR DUHR: I was present yes until the end.

MR VISSER: Can you give a guestimate of how long this whole process lasted?

MR DUHR: I would say in my opinion, it is a long time ago, in my opinion it was approximately 15 minutes, it was a reasonably short duration.

MR LAX: That estimate of yours, that fifteen minutes, is that the questioning prior to the assault or is it the whole process?

MR DUHR: That would be the whole process, Chairperson.  The questioning prior to the assault was - well it didn't take long it was very brief.

MR VISSER: So in fact Botha very rapidly came to the conclusion to go over to more forceful methods after he had arrived there?

MR DUHR: That is correct, I would suggest that is a correct interpretation.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser.  Mr Gordhan, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

MR GORDHAN: Mr Duhr, were you involved in any of the Vula arrests?

MR DUHR: No, I was not involved with the physical arrests although I was at one or two of the safe houses subsequently but with the physical arrests I was not involved, not to my memory.

MR GORDHAN: While you were in Bethlehem, whom did you report to in Durban?

MR DUHR: I reported to Colonel Zen de Beer at that time, we reported on a weekly or two weekly basis.  We had to go back and give him a feedback, brief account of the previous weeks activities.

MR GORDHAN: You obviously didn't according to your version directly participate in the assault itself but you were witness to it?

MR DUHR: That is correct.

MR GORDHAN: If you had a choice in the matter would you have - or do you have an inclination generally, or during that time to assault detainees?

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, I was with Mr Gordhan for about three months and I'd think he would bear with me that I didn't show any inclination towards assaulting detainees specific to him and generally speaking to any other detainee I was in the company of.

MR GORDHAN: There was an occasion subsequent to the assault when one of the police persons, uniformed police persons, was instructed it appears by you to ensure that I didn't sleep that night by every fifteen or twenty minutes coming into my cell, rattling the gate, opening the door, physically waking me up if I had fallen asleep.  Do you recall that?