Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-09-11

KOBUS DU PLESSIS: Yes, no I understand.  No I could not find any indication of shots been fired.  Marks, specifically, that's all I could have looked for, is marks.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Then the second is, I don't know whether you can as a ballistics person but I mean with your knowledge of weaponry, would you say that the kind of armour or arms that were used, would you say those would have been appropriate for the kind of situation that was likely to have arisen of a crowd of people who had claimed that they were unarmed.  Would this be, would you have thought that it was appropriate, sensible?

KOBUS DU PLESSIS: I would answer in this manner Mr Chairman, and this is not firearms which is used for crowd control.  It is military firearms which is used for battle purposes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Just one more.  I give you one question Dumisa Ntsebeza.

UNKNOWN: Well, thank you Chairperson.  My, most of my questions have been covered by Advocate Potgieter.  I just want to put one simple question.  The investigators who were probably investigating this matter for criminal prosecution, are alleging that the sound effect from a helicopter going up, gives an impression that firearms are being, you know, fired.
 Now I know that you have endeavoured to reply this from my colleague.  Would you say from your expertise point of view, that is a more probable version than the version of the witnesses that they were being fired on from a helicopter?

KOBUS DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I believe that the answer lies in the probability with regard to the two versions.  Then I personally feel, at this stage, with regard to what the people believe they have heard, I can understand that the sound, it is so, I have experienced myself that the sound can give the impression of shots being fired out of a helicopter because of the blades breaking the sound barrier and also the shooting, the sounds of the firearms and the total circumstances.
 I don't think that we must have the attitude of deciding, with what we have on the table, people heard and they made conclusions.  If it did not happen, I'm not saying they are lying, if it did happen I would say yes there must be more evidence in this regard.  Did somebody see a person with a firearm or, I don't know but I don't think that at this stage, we can work on probabilities and that it is at this stage, to me a question that hangs in the air.  But I can understand that people can get, under these circumstances, like I have said, the impression that shots were fired from all directions because it is a situation, even if you look at the video films, where there was totally chaos when the shots started to be fired.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to express as I did at the beginning, our very profound appreciation for your coming to the Commission and assisting us with your expertise.  It will certainly help us in trying to come to some conclusions about what happened on this awful day, on the 7th September and thank you very, very much.  You may now stand down.

KOBUS DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION: BISHO MASSACRE - DAY 3 - 11 SEPTEMBER 1996

BONGANI FINCA: [Indistinct]  officers of the Ciskei Defence Force and as I said Your Grace at the beginning of our today's hearing that Colonel Dirk van der Bank has not been able to come.  We are most pleased to welcome and to introduce to you the then Chief of the CDF,  Major General Marius Oelschig, the then chief of staff of operations, Colonel Horst Schobesberger.

CHAIRPERSON: You will remember what we said yesterday, let us not go back.

BONGANI FINCA: The then kraal Commander of the CDF, Colonel Fagile Archibald Mkosana and then member of the CDF Colonel Vilile Mbina.    Chairperson the order that is going to be followed is that Major General Oelschig is going to give the primary submission, Horst Schobesberger, Mr Mkosana and Mr Mbina will make comments and answer questions if there are any from the panel.

CHAIRPERSON: [Indistinct] and they have got to be sworn in.

BONGANI FINCA: Yes okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you kindly just take the oath please.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I asked you yesterday  to be quiet so that we can find out the truth, everybody who is here is going to give us their evidence.  And the person who is going to give - to testify shall be given the right to do that.  You know that it is not easy, let us not make this difficult for them.
 Yesterday we tried to show our sympathy, and if we have to find a way to heal our wounds, people will come forward to testify in front of this Commission and they have to be given a chance to testify.  Yesterday you behaved very well, I was happy about that and I want you to keep it up even today.  Please Major General yes.

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION: BISHO MASSACRE - DAY 3 - 11 SEPTEMBER 1996