Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-22

MS S H CELE: Yes, I went to the police, I reported the matter.  Also I reported about the people who were still missing from my family members, including my father and another kid who was also assaulted, Makasonge.  I reported this to the police.  The police took me with to my home.
	When we arrived at home we found my father there.  He was still sitting in the remaining rondavel, which was not burnt down.  We asked my father to come with us.  He refused.  He said he wasn't going anywhere because he didn't have any enemies.  We pleaded with him.  He refused, and then we left him there. 
	I left with the police.  I asked the police to give me a ride to my sister's place.  The police took me and left me at my sister's place.  As I was approaching my sisters place - one could see from my sister's place to my house or my family house, I saw the remaining rondavel being burnt down.  I told my sister again that the remaining hut was now on fire.  
	Again I went back to the police and I told the police that they had burnt down that remaining rondavel.  I didn't go back with the police to my place, I didn't have enough strength.  They took my sister with them, my sister, Nokokanja.  
	They went home and they found that the remaining hut was burnt down and they started looking for my father.  I think they looked for him for three days, they couldn't find him.  And one person we didn't know gave us an idea as to where my father was.  The police went and they found my father in a bush near the Madlala kraal.  He was burnt.

MS THABETHE: You have indicated that he was found near the Madlala kraal, being burnt.  How far was Madlala's kraal from your home?

MS S H CELE: It's very close.  One can speak to someone from my place to Madlala's place.  We are very close.  It's not as close as in the townships, because those are the rural areas, but one can speak from one house to the other, from Madlala to my family's place, Even the area or the bush where they found my father's corpses, was closer to Madlala's crawl.

MS THABETHE: You have heard Roy Cele's evidence saying that your father together with a group of people, went to attack him at his home and that's how he got killed.  My first question to you is, how far is Roy Cele's home from the Madlala's kraal, where you father was found?

MS S H CELE: It is very far.  I can estimate that it is from here to, or you go past Durban Station.  From my father's place to where Roy stays, or from the bush where my father was found I can say to Roy's place it's from here to Umgeni.

MS THABETHE: My next question is, could your father still walk and run as Roy has indicated to us, that they had to run after him from his house up until where he was found, near Madlala's kraal?

MS S H CELE: He couldn't walk such a distance.  Besides, that area it's a steep ...
...(end of side A of tape)

MS THABETHE: ... amnesty for these acts.  What is your response to that?

MS S H CELE: Even though I don't know very well about amnesty, but what I've heard so far it's that when a person asked for amnesty he tells the truth, because it is meant for people to reconcile and for people to be remorseful, and you can only do that when you tell the truth.  When I was sitting down there I was listening to their evidence and I couldn't hear any truth.  I don't know what type of amnesty they get.  If they cannot tell the truth I can't give them that.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabethe.  Mr Molohlanye, do you have any questions to put to Ms Cele?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes, Chairperson.
	Ms Cele, I'd like ask the first question and that is, how are you related to Monica?

MS S H CELE: She is my sister.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Did you see her at any time after you arrived from work?

MS S H CELE: No, I didn't.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Can I put to you that Monica Cele was still in that scenario when those people from Madikwe, and the local ones were running down the hill towards your house.  Would you dispute that?

CHAIRPERSON: Let us understand what you are putting to her.  What scenario are you referring to?

MR MOLOHLANYE: When those people were attacking the house, running down the hill towards her house and when she was looking for the babies and meeting Nana, and looking for some of the members of the family.  What I want to put to her is that her father was still around and Monica also was still around at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Where, in the house?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes, she was around the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MOLOHLANYE: In page ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Sorry, have we had that answer?

CHAIRPERSON: Put it to her.

ADV DE JAGER: When you were looking for the babies, for the children there after you've arrived, was your father still in the house?  And did you see Monica there with your father, or in the vicinity of your father?

MS S H CELE: When I arrived at home, Monica and my father were not there.  I was told that she had taken Makasonke to hospital because Makasonke had been assaulted or stabbed.

CHAIRPERSON: Your ...(indistinct) Mr Molohlanye, has instructions differently.  What you want to put to her is that Monica and Amos Cele were in the house at the time of her arrival from work.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Put it to her then.

MR MOLOHLANYE: I'll put it to you, Ms Cele, that your father was still at the house when those people came running down to the house.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(no English interpretation)

MS S H CELE: No, Monica and my father were not there, they had left for hospital.

MR MOLOHLANYE: In page 33 of the judgment, paragraph 10, it's the evidence of Monica, your sister, she says a second group approached them and she ran away, as well as her father.  Will you deny that?

CHAIRPERSON: What page?

MR MOLOHLANYE: At page 33, paragraph 10, six lines down from paragraph 10.  It starts with an "A".

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: A second group approached them and she ran away, as well as her father.

MS THABETHE: Can I interject, Madam Chair.  This incident refers to the stage where the girls had received 50 cuts and then thereafter that's when they ran away, looking for their brother.  They found the brother in the neighbour's yard, he was stabbed, and then they took the brother to hospital, at Osindeswene.

CHAIRPERSON: Where are you reading this from?

MS THABETHE: Paragraph 10, which my learned friend has referred to.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought he had referred to the sentence that starts with "A", second group approached them and she ran away, as well as her father.

MS THABETHE: That's exactly what I'm saying, that it's different stages, it's not the stage that she's talking about.  She is talking about the stage when she arrived at home and they were not there, because after the girls were beaten they were told that the brother had been stabbed, they went there with Nana, and they took the brother to the hospital, which is what she is saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's give you an opportunity, Mr Molohlanye.  What point are you making?

MR MOLOHLANYE: The point I was trying to make, Chairperson, is that Monica, her sister, was around and her father was there in the vicinity when the house was attacked and yet she's giving us information that her father was not anywhere around the area.

MR MALAN: Mr Molohlanye, will you help me, what is really the relevance in terms of the overall application and the violation that we're considering here?

MR MOLOHLANYE: The relevance in this matter is that the witness has given us in his evidence, that his father was 79 years old, therefore he could not ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: No, sorry, he did not give that evidence, that was put to him in cross-examination.  He was asked and he said about 60, and then later it was put to him that his father was 79.  Are you talking about the applicant, or are you talking about this witness now?