Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-26

MR MGWENYA: And the media has this to say
"Who killed Thamizulu, who killed Thami Zulu."
That was the Guardian Weekly Mail.  This is the Sowetan:
"How did TC really die?  How did TZ really die?"
Patrick Lawrence in the Star, in 1992 writes:
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"TZ's death is a riddle; who killed TZ."

MRS NGWENYA: In fact, we have the post-mortem, which nobody is aware of, that he was after all poisoned in his last days.  Though there is that we have this with us.  Thank you.

MR NGWENYA: Ronnie Kasrils, a freedom fighter, had this to write in his book, Armed and Dangerous
"It is not possible to console the parents of Tami Zulu."
Console them where, who came from the ANC?
"The MK commander I liked is Tami Zulu."
That is what Ronnie Kasrils says:
"The MK commander I liked and respected was detained by the ANC security and suffering from an illness, died within days of his release at the end of 1989. Suspicion fell on him, after his Natal missionary suffered many casualties."
I challenge whoever says TZ was a police agent.  The ANC is a free movement now. They should institute a commission of inquiry, headed by a judicial officer, where we are all represented. I challenge them to prove that he ever was or that my family ever had any connection with the special branch. I challenge them. I challenge them. I challenge them. Let them prove that he was an informer or a police agent.

MRS NGWENYA: Another addition.  I want the Commission to note this difference.  There is some contradiction. The military wing was with him, they supported him right through. Even at the time when his corpse was fetched from Zambia, they were with him.  They were working with the
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family. They had nothing against him.  The people who were not working with him, that is the security, is the group that had something to do with him.  That contradiction, which shows that there was a little clique. One of the papers quoted that there was a struggle of power.  And of course we know, my son said it when we had gone to see him the last time, in Zambia. He said that there was bad blood between him and Jacob Zuma. It was mentioned in a number of papers that Jacob Zuma was not happy that he was appointed a commander in Natal. It was found in all the papers. We kept these papers.
 This he did mention to me. Actually when I asked him about it, because I confronted him, because already long before his detention, this was said.  So when he answered me, he said Mamma, yes, this has been said, but I was not taking it seriously, I just took it, you know, just something silly.  Now I can see from the confrontation we have now again with him, that there is something wrong.

MR NGWENYA: That is all, thank you.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you Mr and Mrs Ngwenya.  As a Commission we are really honoured and humbled to hear about such a young man who, as it has been said, as you said from his schooling up to his involvement with the MK, we are really honoured.
 Also I appreciate your pain that you have lived with for so many years, and the penetrating questions that you are raising before this Commission. I will just ask you a few questions to clarify, to assist you in clarifying whatever you say. Maybe before I do that, with your permission I would ask that our briefers get copies of some of the documents that you read from, including the 
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statement.  Since both your statements, if we can have copies of those so that they can be filed with the report of this Commission sitting today.
 Just as a point of clarification.  You mention that he was detained for the first time in Swaziland.

MR NGWENYA: I mentioned that. In Swaziland it was an arrest by the Swaziland police and not himself alone, but 14 others. I left here and spent two weeks in Swaziland, fearing that the boers would abduct him and that the Swazi police, who were corrupt mostly, would hand him over.  So every day, during the two weeks, I used to get to prison and see, ask for permission to see him, if he was still there. I did that for two weeks until they were all deported to Lusaka.  But unfortunately he didn't stay long in Lusaka. We heard he had come back again.  At what time he was broadcast over Swazi radio, as a fugitive, armed and dangerous. He could have been shot at any time. It was broadcast throughout Swaziland and the Swazis knew him, because he had spent more than eight years studying in Swaziland.

MS MKHIZE: I am going to assist you in getting clarify on your statement.  Regarding the 1989 detention in Lusaka, you say the African National Congress official told you that he was not detained.  You didn't give us the name of that official. You went on to say they actually brought him to you at the hotel.  Can you just tell the Commission as to who said he wasn't detained in 1989 and who brought him to you at the hotel to see him?

MRS NGWENYA: It is Mr Nzo who said to us he was not detained.  He was with the others, Mr Nzo and Mr (indistinct) and Mr Mkobi, they were the three there with us.  Yes, Jacob Zuma is the one who said that, that he was
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not detained. He was escorted to us, it was during the time when he started with his detention.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you. If you say he was escorted, did you maybe have difficulties in talking to him, when he asked you to withdraw the statement, the request to the International Red Cross? I would imagine that you had an opportunity of talking to him closely as to what exactly has happened.
You said earlier on, you used to do a lot of things for them.  You even intended buying cars in their name.

MR NGWENYA: No, no, not buying cars, but they bought.  They send the money over secretly.

MS MKHIZE: Yes, but in your name, those cars were bought in your name.

MRS NGWENYA: Yes, we bought in our son's name, because they could not buy cars here.

MS MKHIZE: So what I am saying, when then there was this problem, I would imagine that you wanted to know from him that what was gone wrong, since you have been so much emotionally involved with this liberation movement.

MR NGWENYA: You know, we did not feel comfortable because he was driven to us and there is a young man who kept his distance.  We were not very comfortable in a foreign country.

MRS NGWENYA: But all the same we were able to say as much as we wanted to him, and he was aware, he was told because he told us that he was actually threatened.  It was said to him because we have asked for the help of Red Cross, we as parents would - what do you call it ...

MR NGWENYA: Regarded as collaborators.  Not only that, at that time we would be necklaced, we would be necklaced.

MRS NGWENYA: For including the Red Cross.  But when he said SOWETO HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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that we should withdraw the Red Cross, he was quite free and sincere. In fact, he felt so innocent that he felt no need for it, because he thought, he knew he was innocent and he did not need anbody to assist him.  He would just go back to the family.

MS MKHIZE: You have just said that at that time you were also threatened, you feared for your life since you were in a foreign country.  Did he mention any names that he was really worried about at that time? I am talking about the section where you say he was brought to you at the hotel.  Did he mention any names of people who were portrayed as a real threat?