Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-05-20

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: I am talking about the cross-fire whereby Maliqole was hitting Bongi.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Maliqole the only one that fired?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, he is the only one who fired.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't fire?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: I had an explosive, not a firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: You held this explosive in your hand, so anybody could see it?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: No, sir.  It was wrapped in a plastic, nobody would realise it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mkhulutha, when you went to Mr Mpisane's house, you expected to find members of the ISU, is that correct?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, Ma'am.

SISI KHAMPEPE: That is because of the tip off you had received from the lady from the ANC Youth League?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, Ma'am.

SISI KHAMPEPE: No, is that the reason why you went there armed to the teeth?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You didn't go there with the intention of obtaining information about where the meeting was to take place with the ISU members and the time when that meeting was to take place, you didn't go there with the intention of seeking that kind of information?  ... (tape ends) Was it conceivable in those days, you will assist me because I am also staying in the township, was it conceivable for an informer to arrange a meeting in the township where you were staying, thus opening up his cover to the whole community?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: What was happening is it became very clear that it wouldn't be their first meeting there, some of the residents in the R Section did notice that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Let me just interrupt you, just respond to my question.  Was it conceivable in those days for an informer to meet secretly with the police in broad daylight within his own community, thus opening up and blowing his cover up, was that conceivable?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, it was conceivable because his real side was revealed now, we knew what his position was.

JUDGE WILSON: What do you mean by that, we knew what his position was?  You found a man standing by himself outside his home, he ran away when you pointed guns at him?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: What I am trying to say is that the fact that they squandered the money that was donated for guns, showed that they wanted to sabotage our move.
	And when we got the tip off that they are sitting with the police, it was not a police, they had some intentions,  therefor we decided to go there.

JUDGE WILSON: But that information was wrong, they were not having a meeting.  That is the position isn't it, your information was shown to be wrong, there was no meeting with the police at his house, but you killed him nevertheless.  You tried to kill him nevertheless.

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Personally I do not think that that was a lie, because if it was he would not have run away.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you grab him by his vest?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: I did not grab him, only Kedo grabbed him.

JUDGE WILSON: So he was grabbed by his vest and guns pointed at him?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, sir.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you armed?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: No, I only had the explosive.

JUDGE WILSON: Evidence was led at the trial wasn't it, by him, that is  by Mr Mpisane and by the man who was helping him Sibisa that you were all armed.

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, he gave such evidence but only two people were armed, and even in court he did say that I was armed, but I was not.
	I had an explosive and Nyamana had a pistol and the other one had an (indistinct).

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you know Victor Qobisa, the one who gave evidence in court?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: I saw him for the first time in court.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was he not there when you went into Mr Mpisane's house on the 29th, didn't you find him there?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: No, Mr Mpisane was talking to a lady.

SISI KHAMPEPE: (Indistinct)

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, he was standing outside, next to the house.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And when you came in, did you see any vehicle parked outside his house?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: The only car that was there, was his van.  Mr Mpisane.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you make any attempt to force your way through to see whether any member of the ISU were inside the house?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: His house is open because it is serving as a shop as well.  And thus one could see that there was no one else inside.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mkhulutha, you truly believed that Mr Mpisane could have a meeting, secret meeting as an informer with members of the ISU in such a place which you yourself explain as being quite visible to anyone going pass the street?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Certainly, because those were rumours that you were hearing in the neighbourhood that he was sitting in meetings with such members.  And thus we were convinced that there was such a meeting.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

JUDGE WILSON: ... that he was going to hold a meeting at his shop that was open to the public?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: I would not know whether they would hold it inside his house or maybe in the next door neighbour, but what we decided was to go to his place first.
	And that is when we asked him where is the meeting when we realised that there was no meeting, that is when we demanded to know where the meeting was held.
	If we had seen from a distance, we would also spot that there was such a meeting, but we realised that there wasn't, that is why we demanded to know.

SISI KHAMPEPE: With due respect Mr Mkhulutha, with your kind of explanation, really the name informer really loses its meaning.

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Please repeat.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I mean with the kind of explanation that you have presented to us, the work informer truly loses its meaning - if an informer can have a secret meeting with the police in a public place in broad daylight.

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: You are confusing me now because I am talking about what exactly happened because even the residents were aware of what was happening, it was blatant what he was up to.

JUDGE WILSON: But he was still a leader of the ANC?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Who are you referring to?

JUDGE WILSON: To Mpisane.

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, he was a leader in SANCO.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But if the residents were aware that he was an informer, what action was taken by the residents?  You were part of that as a member of SANCO, what action was taken by the community at large?