Amnesty Hearings — Vosloorus — 1998-11-24

ADV MOTATA: Now the incident where you said there were IFP people and followed by military cause, you recall that where you fired tactfully, where you spent three magazines, you recall that?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes.

ADV MOTATA: Now in that incident was anybody injured, killed?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I indicated when I revealed that when the attack took place the military used the past strategy of demoralising what they termed as their enemy.  They will fight and bodies will be immediately removed so I'm quite sure there are people who died during that attack and by the end of the day when the violence stopped, the only people who could be identified were people who died on the community side.  It was like IFP didn't have any injuries.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Machitje, tell me what month of 1992 did that incident with the funeral procession occur?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I'm not quite sure of the month but as I indicate to you there was funeral of the wife of the Mbekesini Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: When you prepared for this application did you not take the trouble of trying to find out from your colleagues or friends or newspaper cuttings when exactly the funeral procession occurred?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I don't know whether this Commission is aware that I'm not currently staying inside Thokoza, I'm residing in Pretoria.

CHAIRPERSON: That's not the point.

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes.  I didn't contact anybody because I knew that in 1992 there was that funeral where I instructed SDU members to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Now on page 7 of your application - on page 17 of your application, you say you were instructed by the MK regional command to form structures and give the necessary training where it was needed.  Can you see you wrote that?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you referring to the SDU's?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes I was referring to SDU.  I earlier said when I was released there were defence units and they didn't have proper training, there was lack of discipline and my regional commanders instructed me to help them and make sure that they get proper training.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what structures did you form?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: There was no structures which was formed, what we did is from each section five members of SDU's were selected and those members were taken to Vosloorus Stadium and training started and it was a mix of those SDU members, MK members, trained members and internal MK members and they participated in training inside Vosloorus.

CHAIRPERSON: You gave an order for these funeral marchers to be shot or to be attacked?  Did you shoot them yourself?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Can you repeat yourself?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you yourself shoot?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: No, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present when they were shot at?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I was present when they were shot at.  I was a distance from the attack and I was using binoculars because as I said it was a normal thing inside Thokoza to know that when a funeral goes through Thokoza, you could see members of IFP carrying assault rifles, traditional weapons, so immediately when they reached Beirut section, that's where they were attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: In 1990 September when you shot at these unknown people, did you shoot at them alone?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: In indicated that a comrade from Kathlehong by the name of Jacky Macheco arrived.  Jacky was aware because it was about two months after he was released from prison so when I was released he became aware that I'm out of prison and knowing the problem that the ANC found itself, they were negotiating and there was no proper department which was responsible for the safety of MK members so comrade Jacky knew exactly what was happening inside Thokoza and out of his concern he brought this AK and I participated on that attack and I could not remember who was next to me, I cannot mention names because as I said it was about two weeks after my release.

CHAIRPERSON: So what you are telling me, you were not alone when you shot?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes, I was not alone because the section where I stayed, Beirut section ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Machitje, I understand you were not alone, that's all I wanted to know.

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Okay.

ADV DE JAGER: You can't mention anybody else who was with you, the name of anybody else who was with you in that attack?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: No, no, no, no, I can't remember a name because here I was still fresh from prison.

ADV DE JAGER: But you've grown up in this area?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And there was nobody you've known with you in that attack?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes, the situation will be like when I participated I will normally participate - on the two days I participated with the attacks which were mostly intensified at night so it becomes a problem for me to say during that night who did I see participating.

ADV DE JAGER: You testified it carried on for two days, day and night, day and night?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Couldn't you recognise anybody in daytime?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: In daytime I didn't participate because my condition of release was that I shall not be found participating in any violence in a period of three years so during the day I won't participate, I will just monitor the situation and give advice where it's necessary because as I say normally at night it's where you couldn't see that there is somebody who is ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You've said so twice already.

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, when you shot at these people during September 1990 you say you were in the company of others although you can't mention names.  Did people die there in that incident?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I will repeat again, yes I'm quite sure that people died during the day but...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But the fact that they died did you associate yourself with it?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: I associated myself with what?

CHAIRPERSON: With the death of those people?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And the funeral procession, you did not shoot at that incident or have I got it wrong?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: No I didn't shoot at that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: But did people die there?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes people died but I'm not quite sure of a number of people who died.

CHAIRPERSON: We're not really interested at the moment in the number or identity.  Did you in that case also associate yourself with the death of those people?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes.  Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR MAKANJEE: Thank you Mr Chairperson, we have no further questions.  If this witness may be excused?
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Who is next?

MR MAKANJEE: Mr Chairperson as indicated yesterday to my learned friend we had given a list of four names.  However during the course of today it was indicated by yourself and members of the panel that you would not require for purposes of these amnesty hearings an indepth background as you are already familiar with the background in the situation.

CHAIRPERSON: We said we'll indicate if we need it at the end.

MR MAKANJEE: That is correct.  Unfortunately the two people who we intended to call today were people who also wanted to give the panel an idea of the background in the community at this stage.  One member is presently testifying at Palm Ridge, the other member is here but we do not think it's necessary to call her at this stage of the hearing.  We ask respectfully if there could be an adjournment now in order for us to then prepare on the actual submissions for people who have actually have been specific in the incidents.

ADV DE JAGER: This morning you told us you'll deal with two applications.  The one of Mr Duma Nkosi, number 7269/97.