Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-13

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, I don't know anything about that.

MR BRINK: Sorry, Mr Chairman, you're referring to a minister, that could be a minister of the church or a minister in the Kwazulu government.   Could that be clarified?

MR BERGER: Well the witness doesn't seem to have a difficulty... (intervention).

INTERPRETER: The witness says he doesn't know.

MR BERGER: ...the witness doesn't seem to have difficulty with that description.   A minister from Durban, either a religious minister or a minister in the Kwazulu government, do you know of any such minister who would have sent Mr Dlamini to the Kwamadala Hostel?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I know Mr Dlamini to have been an ambassador, so to speak, or a representative of the movement in Vereeniging, who was taking care of the needs of the IFP members in this area.

MR BERGER: And he was sent by a minister of the IFP from Durban?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that's how I know it to have been.

CHAIRPERSON: He was sent by the minister of the IFP?

MR BERGER: Correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know that Mr Dlamini was there, having been sent by a minister of the IFP?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I can explain, sir, that he was in the Vaal Triangle area, not that he was sent on that day to attend the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: You've told us that you know Mr Dlamini as the IFP representative in Vereeniging, but what's being put to you is that, all of this flows from the question of a meeting that was held on a Sunday a week just before the attack on Boipatong.   What is being put to you is that Dlamini was there, having been sent to Kwamadala Hostel by a minister of the IFP?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I do understand that, but there's nothing I can say about it.

MR BERGER: Your evidence is that you do not recall such a meeting, you know nothing about it, is that right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: It's been a long time, sir, I wish for you to understand that, and I therefore cannot remember so many things as to what was happening at what time.

MR BERGER: Well let me refresh your memory please.   Have a look at page 8, paragraph 11
"On the Sunday before the Boipatong massacre, Themba Khosa and Dlamini came to address a meeting of the people in the stadium.  Other residents of the Kwamadala Hostel were present.   Only the men of the Kwamadala Hostel were present.   Dlamini was accompanied by a member of the Kwazulu police, Gabelo, who was his bodyguard."
Do you remember now?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Sir, as I have indicated to you that I am not in the position to remember everything that happened.   This may well mean that this is what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: But you now remember that on a Sunday before the Boipatong massacre, Themba Khosa and Dlamini came to address the people at the stadium?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, you were asked a question at page 20, paragraph 20.4, you were asked
"  Who is Dlamini, who you allege was present during this meeting, and what is his position in the IFP?"
Your answer, at page 31, 20.4:-
"He is an honourable man who was sent by a minister of the IFP from Durban to look after the members of the IFP in the Vaal Triangle as a whole."
This answer of yours was signed by you on the 3rd of June 1998.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I signed it, I have answered that question.

MR BERGER: You were also asked about a meeting, I'll give you the question, question 19
"  You state that you were present at the general meeting held in the hostel approximately a week before the attack?"
You were asked:-
"  Was Mr Themba Khosa present during this meeting?"
Your answer was:-
"No."
You were then asked:-
"  Did Mr Mbeki Sene Mkhize personally address and warn hostel dwellers during this meeting to be prepared because of the pending attack?"
Your answer is:-
"Yes."
Now it seems as though there were two meetings, there was one meeting on the Sunday, which was addressed by Mr Themba Khosa, and there was one meeting held in the hostel approximately a week before the attack, where Mr Themba Khosa was not present, and which was addressed by Mr Mbeki Sene Mkhize, who warned hostel dwellers to be prepared because of a pending attack.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, now I have just indicated to you this happened a long time ago, the meeting that was held, I want to say the meeting was held at that time because there was going to be an attack.   There used to be meetings and Themba Khosa used to come to address people if something was going to take place wherever, he would come to inform us about those meetings pertaining to the organisation.    He did not necessarily come to the meeting that day because there was to be an attack on Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, is it your evidence that there were two meetings, one that was addressed by Mr Mkhize approximately a week before the attack, and one that was addressed by Mr Themba Khoza on the Sunday preceding the attack?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Maybe you were told about these, sir, but I will tell you that the meeting that was attended by Mkhize was the one held on the 17th of June 1992, not that the meeting held on Sunday was with an intention of explaining to us what we should do, as you have just explained it.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, as far as you can recall, there was a meeting on a Sunday preceding the attack on Boipatong, which was addressed by Themba Khosa, and there was no other meeting after that, other than the one on the evening of the 17th of June 1992?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That's what I've just explained, sir.

MR BERGER: Which minister had sent Mr Dlamini to the Vaal?  Sorry, that wasn't interpreted.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I'm not in the position to say he was sent by the executive committee from Durban.

MR BERGER: The executive committee of the IFP?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You assumed that that was the position?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir, that was my assumption because I too did not know Mr Dlamini and when he arrived he was introduced to us in one of the meetings where it was indicated that he is coming from Durban.   I would say... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Let's put it this way, you see on a Sunday when Dlamini came, was that the first time he was coming to Kwamadala Hostel?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No sir, as I have explained that it was not for the first time that he came, and the meeting was not necessarily held because it was Sunday, now he used to frequent the hostel.

MR BERGER: When Dlamini was first introduced to you at one of the earlier meetings, he was introduced as somebody who had been sent by a minister of the IFP in Durban, is that right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: When I first heard about Mr Dlamini, that was just before we went to a meeting in Zone 7 in 1990.

MR BERGER: My question is, he was introduced as somebody who had come from Durban, having been sent from Durban by an IFP minister, is that how he was introduced to you?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

MR BERGER: Now let's move, if we can, quickly to the meeting on the Sunday.   Both Mr Dlamini and Mr Themba Khosa addressed this meeting, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Even though I cannot remember, but really they had come to the meeting with a purpose.

MR BERGER: But you cannot remember the purpose?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, I don't remember, sir.