Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-02

ADV MEMANI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: May I point out to you just a remark in regard to the burning of the motor car of - I am sorry Mr Ngo, I forgot something about the clinic or the house of Mrs Mandela, you can choose whichever, are you quite certain that on at least one occasion explosives were used to attack whatever you want to call it, the clinic or the house?	Let's call it the clinic, are you quite certain that explosives were used?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: In terms of my knowledge it was Bester and Ramoseu who bombed and I was in the car, looking at them when they went there.  What they did there, I was able to see when they throw things and then I see that the clinic caught fire.	I don't know as whether they used those explosives which they were given by Bester or what.  I was just an escort there, I was not directly involved in the operation because I was a student then.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo, I asked you specifically and you told this Committee, that when you went to Brandfort you took the box with explosives along with you.  Did you say that or didn't you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I said that Sir.

MR VISSER: When you arrived there, did you open the box of explosives and take out the explosives?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: They took the box.

MR VISSER: They didn't open it?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: They went with it to the clinic.

MR VISSER: Are you saying that the box was not opened in your presence so that you could see what was in the box?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I don't know, they took it with them.  They didn't open that box in the car.

MR VISSER: So to this day, from your own personal knowledge, you don't know what was in that box?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, I didn't open the box, I didn't even handle the box.

MR VISSER: Why did you then tell this Committee that Liebenberg brought explosives to Mr Coetzee, page 41 Mr Chairman?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He said he has brought the material.

MR VISSER: So much the more then, how did you draw the inference from a little box which was handed by a certain Liebenberg who was a member of the Intelligence Services, to Colonel Coetzee, that it was explosives  that was in the box?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is the language Colonel Coetzee used.  He explained to him.

MR VISSER: So when Colonel Coetzee wanted to refer to explosives he spoke of material, is that what you are saying?

CHAIRPERSON: Please in fairness to the witness, will you read the previous sentence?  Colonel Coetzee then said he will make arrangements for members of the Intelligence Services and the SADF so that we can get explosives to bomb the place.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And he says one morning while we were in, before we came to Brandfort, Colonel Coetzee then phoned Brigadier Liebenberg.  It would appear that Colonel Coetzee had mentioned to them explosives before and that he would obtain them from the Defence Force.

MR VISSER: I think I take your point Mr Chairman.  In other words, where in the second paragraph there is a reference to material, it is the word taken by the witness himself not necessarily, yes, I think that is a fair interpretation and I would accept that Mr Chairman.
	Alright, point of the matter is this, who of the three of you or five or how ever many, went to Brandfort was an explosives expert?  Who could work with explosives?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is Bester.

MR VISSER: Well, you see, you've picked the wrong man, because Bester sat yesterday consulting with me and he assured me that he has no knowledge of explosives and he, I am putting it to you, also told me that he would never travel in an ordinary motor car with explosives in the car.  It would be far too dangerous.  So Bester was not an explosives expert, that is all I am putting to you.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: As I am not an expert in explosives, if you give me a handgrenade and say if I remove the pin and throw the house, I know what a safety pin is, you don't have to be an explosives expert to kill a person with a handgrenade or something like that.

MR VISSER: I see, so it is as simple as that?  Alright.  The point here is this.  The question which I would like to hear your reply to and which I think you can't give us, is was it ordinary commercial explosives that was used or was it a handgrenade or something of that nature because you see, there is a difference?
Can you help us or can't you help us?  If you don't know, please say so.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I am not able to help the Committee because I have never opened the box to see what was the contents therein.

MR VISSER: You told the Committee that you went to bomb the clinic twice, is that correct or am I wrong?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I went there twice.

MR VISSER: The explosives, was that the first or the second occasion that the explosives were used?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That was the first occasion where explosives were used.

MR VISSER: Okay, what was used on the second occasion?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We used petrol bombs.

MR VISSER: And when you  talk about a petrol bomb, will you just explain to us exactly what you mean by that?  Is it a bottle with petrol in with a rag on the top which you light and which you throw in and break the bottle, is that a petrol bomb?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: They bought petrol, a two litre petrol, that is Motsamai and others, it might be a five litre.  Maybe they formed those petrol bombs on the road, I don't know.  That is what I know that the petrol bombs were going to be used.

MR VISSER: I don't understand, with all due respect to you.  Were you present on two occasions when the clinic was attacked?  Were you present personally or are you saying something today which you heard from somebody?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was with Ramoseu, Mamome, Motsamai, Mtyala to go there.  People who were making those petrol bombs were Mamome and Motsamai.  I was just protecting them when they went there to throw those petrol bombs.

MR VISSER: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the second occasion?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is true.

MR VISSER: Now, were Mamome and Motsamai making the petrol bombs in the vehicle while you were travelling to Brandfort from Bloemfontein?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: They bought petrol, they formed those petrol bombs on the road, they were travelling with an E20, we were using a Toyota Sprinter.  They were driving an E20.

MR VISSER: I just want to know where they made the petrol bombs?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Maybe they formed them in the car or anywhere else, I don't know.  The only thing I know is that they had petrol bombs.	I only saw them when they were buying a five litre petrol and they put it in the car.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo, was the five litre petrol can, was that the petrol bomb you are talking about?  Is this what you refer to as a petrol bomb, a can of five litres with petrol in, is that what you refer to as a petrol bomb, or are you referring to petrol bombs which were manufactured with the petrol in the can?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was said that the clinic should be hit with the petrol bombs.  They bought a five litre petrol and put it in the combi.  I don't know where they formed those petrol bombs, whether in the car or what place, I don't know, but when they arrived there, they hit the clinic with petrol bombs.

MR VISSER: Why don't you know Mr Ngo?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was on guard and it is not the same as participating.  You must escort those people whilst others were attacking, you should ensure that no person should interfere with the operation.

MR VISSER: In regard to that incident, what are you asking for amnesty for?  Just explain that please, the second attack on the house, what are you asking for amnesty for?	What did you do?