Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 2000-02-04

ADV SANDI: I understood you to say you had not seen any person falling down onto the ground as a result of having been struck by a bullet.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, from our side, I haven't seen anybody falling down.

ADV SANDI: You did not even see an object such as a tree, a building or any physical object being struck by a bullet?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No I haven't ...(indistinct) contact Sir.

ADV SANDI: There was no physical indication whatsoever that someone was shooting at you, just something in your ears.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, Sir because that's why I heard shots being fired.  I haven't see a person firing to us directly.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but why did you not contact other commanders, Field Commanders and ask them if they were in fact being shot at before you gave the order that your soldiers should fire?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, I didn't ask them Sir, because the crowd was coming at us on speed and then there were shots fired, so it's why I acted.  I haven't asked company commanders why, they can here fire or...?

ADV SANDI: Yes, but why did you not say to Mr van der Bank:  "van der Bank, what is this thing I hear?  I think they are now shooting at us.  Have you heard shots, have you seen anything, where are you?"  Why didn't you do that?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, I haven't done it.

ADV SANDI: Did you have any reason for not doing that?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, the only chance I have to speak to him that we are being fired at, I didn't say to him to identify, I don't think a person from the helicopter can hear shots on the ground.

ADV SANDI: Tell me one thing, when you finished talking to van der Bank on the radio, were they still firing at you?  Could you still hear these shots?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, as I've said yesterday that it was only about two shots that were fired.  Why did you not say to van der Bank:  "van der Bank, they've just been shooting at us, but they've just stopped now, I don't know what's happening."  Why didn't you do that?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I didn't do that.  The only thing I said:  "They are coming at us now, so what to do?"

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SMITH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Perhaps with the consent of the Commission members, would I be allowed to raise two issues with the applicant before he stands, or before he is re-examined, Mr Chairman?  It's not the case of a second bite at the cherry, it's just that I could not find what I was looking for yesterday in these volumes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Yes, you say you want to put two issues to him?

MR SMITH: Only two issues.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well ...

MR SMITH: If the Members feel that it's not relevant, I will not proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, no, put it, Mr Du Plessis will be able to re-examine in a minute.

MR SMITH: Thank you.

MR SMITH: Mr Mkosana, you knew on the day of the shooting that Gonya had fired a grenade launcher?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: That's positive.

MR SMITH: You made an affidavit on the 18th of September which was submitted to the  Board of Inquiry.  Is that correct?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, if I'm on the truck.

MR SMITH: It's page, I don't know if the documents are available there, it's page 166 of bundle two.  Ja, paragraph 7.19, it starts on page 165 and it goes over to page 166.  Do you have it before you?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: 17.9, yes.

MR SMITH: It's paragraph 7.19.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR SMITH: Now you say there that you saw and heard two explosions which you knew to be grenade explosions.  Why did you not, at that stage, place the fact of Gonya having fired those two grenades, before the Commission of Inquiry by way of this affidavit?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, Sir, that's what I've indicated yesterday.  The only person who had noticed that Gonya fired, is Maj Zulu.  It's the first person who have said that:  "Gonya is firing."  Yes I see the explosion from Fort Hare.

MR SMITH: What I'm asking you Mr Mkosana, by the 18th of September you knew that he had fired those grenades, you had spoken to him about it, on your version.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, I had already spoken to Maj Skrube, the one who was convening a Board of Inquiry and the Brigadier.

MR SMITH: I'm asking, at the time that you made this affidavit, it was 11 days after the incident.  Why did you not say that Gonya had fired?  Okay, then can I just continue?  Go to paragraph 7.2.1.  You now say at the end of that affidavit, to the best of your knowledge, the troops under your command did not employ any weapons other than R4 rifles.  By the time that you made this affidavit, you knew that that was incorrect.  Gonya had fired the rocket or the grenade launcher in the Buffel that you were travelling, or from that Buffel that you were travelling in.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I think this version, Sir, when I think I've sign it, but I must be talking lies that I ...

MR SMITH: Were you lying to the Board of Inquiry?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No.  If I have not say that, I don't think I said the guns were not employed because I said we have all weapons all the armament of the military was employed.

MR SMITH: Will you look at that paragraph 7.21 again?  It says
"The troops under my command did not employ any weapons other than the R4 rifles.  The light machine guns were not deployed, but at that time you knew that the grenade launcher had been employed."

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR SMITH: Why didn't you say that?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I have no answer on that Sir, because ...(intervention)

MR SMITH: Let me put it this to you, Mr Mkosana, were you covering up that that rocket or the grenade launcher had been used?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No.  I was not covering up.

MR SMITH: Because I also see that Mr Gonya was never called before this Inquiry.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I don't know because I was called for the Inquiry and Gonya was called only for the Board of Inquiry.

MR SMITH: Now, just one final issue.  There was a Rifleman Dlodlo was deployed at Jongelanga Crescent.  He was called.  Would you agree, that his affidavit or statement is on page 39 of that same volume?  Do you have that in front of you?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, Sir.

MR SMITH: Now towards the end of his answer number 1, he says that
"We were told by Captain Ndandiso to fire."
That is the fourth line from the bottom of that paragraph.  Do you have where I am?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.
MR SMITH
"The orders were followed."
And then he says:
"The Captain said, 'Ready', they changed the levers and he then said: 'Fire one shot.'  The crowd turned back immediately."
Were those the instructions that you expected to be issued?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: That's positive.

MR SMITH: Now can you look at question 2 where it is raised whether there was any firing from the crowd and he says
"No, but they were rushing at us."
Do you have any comment on that?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, I cannot tell because he was also deployed there.  Maybe he have heard the shots or not heard the shots.

MR SMITH: No, look at the question.  It says
"Was there any fire from the crowd?"
and he says:
"No, but they were rushing at us."
He excludes shots having come from the crowd.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.  There were no fire but the shots were there.  He's right when he said no, there was no fire.

MR SMITH: Do you agree with what he said?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, because there's no fire, but there were shots fired.

MR SMITH: No, the question that was asked to him, was there any fire from the crowd, which I presume were gun shots fired from the crowd and he says no, they were only rushing at the troops.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No maybe he haven't yet heard the shots, he haven't heard where the shots were fired, maybe.  I can put in that way.