Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-12

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, Mr Chairperson, he did say to me that we must address the squatter camps.  We had a consensus or agreement that people must be killed in the process.

MR DREYER: But how do you bring that, or how do you combine with the disturbance of communication?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: The communication matter was part of our plan, that trains must be blown up, but there must also be terror and that people must be killed.

MR DREYER: But you did not give evidence in that line?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, but I do say it to you now because you have asked me.

MR DREYER: And then you say that these road blocks and the searching for weapons etc, was directed only at ANC members?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That is correct yes.

MR DREYER: That was the instruction, ANC members?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, ANC/SACP alliances.

MR DREYER: But you qualify now, when you gave evidence ...

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Well, it was in the way we talk, ANC or SACP - for us it is the same thing.

MR DREYER: And you said that the instruction from the top structure was that if at these road blocks, weapons were seized, it would have been used for one purpose and that is for the killing of people, and in order to arm the AWB members and not to do something else with them?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: There was also said that we must see if we can steal weapons from the Defence Force.

MR DREYER: But the purpose was in order to arm the AWB, that is the members who did not have weapons, is that correct?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, that is correct Mr Chairperson.  I would just like to add that Mr Terreblanche said to me, or told me that if the people did not want to listen to what you are saying, meaning the ANC, cut their ears off.

MR DREYER: Would he have meant literally?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: He said if they haven't got ears, if they don't listen, cut their ears off.  That was a general command or saying.

MR DREYER: Is it like a parent who says to a child if you don't want to hear, you  must feel?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But I physically interpreted it that if he didn't want to listen, cut his ear off.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand that to mean that you should go all over the country, cutting people's ears, literally?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Mr Chairperson, he said to me, Mr Terreblanche said to me if the people do not want to listen, that is now the ANC people, if they do not want to listen, you cut their ears off.
	He said it to me and he said it in so many words.

CHAIRPERSON: But the question is, how did you understand that?  Did you understand that literally saying that you should actually go about cutting people's ears with a knife?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: If they don't want to listen, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You go up with a basket and cut ears and put them in a basket?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That is what he said, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I see.

MR MALAN: Can I just ask you Mr Kriel, did you receive instructions from people under you, or did you give them a command to cut off ears?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, I did not.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you know about cases where ears were cut off?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: There were a lot of talk amongst the Commanders about people whose ears were cut off, I wasn't there, but a lot of people went around and said that they did it.  It was generally talked about, they boasted about it.

MR DREYER: The last question Mr Kriel.  You said that Mr Terreblanche did not trust some of his Generals, did I understand you correctly?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, that is correct.

MR DREYER: How would you then believe then, as a Brigadier within the AWB, how would it be for any military or paramilitary force be possible to fight a war if people in such top ranks, cannot be trusted?  How do you expect that correct instructions will be given to the grassroots level soldier?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Mr Chairperson, the question that was asked to me, we asked that same question amongst each other.  I asked Mr Terreblanche himself and he said that he uses these Generals to distribute disinformation.

MR DREYER: In other words, you have to be a General, it doesn't matter if you are trusted or not trusted within the AWB structure?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, you could put it that way.

MR DREYER: I've got no more questions.

MR DREYER: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Just one question Mr Chairman.  Mr Kriel, where is Mr Eugene Terreblanche at the moment?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That is a very good question Mr Chairperson.  Repeatedly I pleaded with Mr Terreblanche to take responsibility for what he did.  It is not a happy day for me that I have to give evidence about the things that occurred in the past, but I believe that it is Mr Terreblanche's duty to be here.
	I believe it is the Officers of the AWB's duty to stand by the soldiers who are in prison and I feel that the instruction givers has got a responsibility.  Unfortunately it is now the situation that the man who we listened to and admired, eventually became known as a coward.

MR BRINK: Are you still a member of the AWB?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRINK: Did you resign?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No Mr Chairperson.  In December last year Mr Terreblanche and I had an argument concerning the responsibility towards the prisoners.  He afterwards then reprimanded me and I heard it in the media where I said he was a coward, where afterwards he said that I was expelled from the AWB.

MR BRINK: What was his attitude regarding these applications?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: His attitude was that he will loose his farms if he takes responsibility.  He said to me that it would be the end of the AWB.  He will be put in jail, him and the Generals must still exist and must continue to exist.
	I saw it in a different way, I disagreed with him.  I've got a conscience and I am not willing to cover up the truth any longer.

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Kriel.

MR MALAN: Mr Kriel, you said when it was asked to you about taking lives and the killing of individuals and not just planting bombs and you said yes, and you referred to squatter camps?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, that is right.

MR MALAN: I think that at least it is common knowledge within the Commission and Committee that it was one of the largest political activities of the AWB, or that they had support in that they tried to dissuade squatter camps.  Was the idea behind the bomb planting in squatter camps in order to stop squatting or just to kill people?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I understood it that the squatter camps had a dual purpose.  Firstly it would focus the attention on the terror, on the liberation ideal and secondly it would mean that the squatters would be afraid then to squat and then would move from that area.

MR MALAN: But the bombs in squatter camps were directed towards the problem of squatting?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: In other words the bombs were more a terror act rather than the killing of people?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: That is correct, yes.

MR MALAN: Secondly Mr Kriel, if I understand correctly, you have applied for amnesty and you have received amnesty.  I don't know if there were other applications, but for certain.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: I haven't received notice that it was given, but I did apply yes.

MR MALAN: Can I ask you something about that application, does that application include the killing of people?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No one was killed where I was involved.

MR MALAN: So you never gave instructions to kill people, or that people must be killed?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Mr Chairperson, we did plant bombs.  For me it is a wonder that no one died in these bombings, and it is with God's help that that occurred, but it did happen that not one single train driver were killed, and that is a miracle that it happened.