Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1998-12-07

MR MATTHEWS: This was not a political matter, or do you regard it as being political?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I regard it as a political matter, because if he was IFP, he wouldn't have done all what he did, waking people up and collect some monies from them in the name of a political organisation.

MR LAX: You said this chap was part of a list that you had.  Is that the same list you referred to previously?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That's very true.

MR LAX: Well then what did the collecting money make any difference?   If he was on your list, you would have thought of him as ANC, you would have killed him anyway?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: We wouldn't have.   There are many of them that were not killed yet were men of his calibre, they will say they are IFP and yet they will be forced to be ANC.   Now one could tell that there was that practice.

MR MATTHEWS: The murder of Mr Langeza in 1993, do you recall this?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, I do, although I did not take part in killing him.

MR MATTHEWS: It was alleged that Mr Langeza was pretending to be an associate of the IFP, is that correct, and you later established he was in fact an ANC?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That's very sure.

MR MATTHEWS: You say you were not involved in the killing of Mr Langeza?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: The only part I took was to call him, fetch him and bring him, but to kill him, no I did not, but I did fetch him with my own hand.

MR MATTHEWS: You abducted him?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: No, I did not abduct him, but when we approached Neka, what we did not have is a whistle, we never used to use it, but then I saw him with it in his possession and I fetched him and put him at the back of the vehicle, or in the trunk of the vehicle.

MR MATTHEWS: When you fetched him, what purpose were you fetching him for?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: We got to Phosa's house at night and they knocked at the door, and at Zuga's house as well, and there were two boys at Zuga and one boy at Phosa, and he was knocking in person in the ANC company, and these boys got out of the house and they took them and forced them to join them, and there was one boy who saw this, he is the one who furnished us with all this information.

MR MATTHEWS: Yes, the point of my question is, I didn't say why you went to fetch him, I said what was your purpose in fetching him, what were you going to do with him when you fetched him?   Did you know they were going to kill him?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I did not know he would be killed, he was going to be interrogated with regards to the actions that he did going to Zuga's house and Phosa's house, that was the purpose of fetching the men.

MR LAX: Well, if he admitted those things, do you think they would have left him alive?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I think he would have been taken to the police station to be arrested, he would have been handed over to the police, but then he was quick to want to run away or escape.   I was called from the house to be told that here he is trying to run away.

CHAIRPERSON: But before then, he had become aggressive and you wanted to shoot him, didn't you?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, that happened, but Xobani stopped me from doing that, and I respected him and I went back into the house.

CHAIRPERSON: So you intended to kill him yourself, but Mr Xobani stopped you?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: The way the men were so aggressive and resisting, and I could realise we have this man here in our presence and something must happen, and I was also protecting the other group that I was with.

MR LAX: Why didn't you hand all the other people you caught to the police?   Here's one man, you went to him, you were going to hand him to the police, why didn't you hand all the other that you caught to the police, why did you shoot them instead?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Beza will take a man to the police station, I'm now referring to a certain female person, Beza took that person, or that woman, to the police station, she was never killed.

MR LAX: We were not talking about some female person, we were talking about this man, Langeza, the questions I was asking you were about Langeza, no-one was talking about a female person, I was asking you what did you understand would happen to Langeza?   You said, no, if he admitted it, he would have been taken to the police station, to be charged with the killings?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, he would have been taken to the police station and identify the place where he has taken the three people who were missing, the three boys that is.

MR LAX: But you said they were found murdered a few days later, you've already told us that in your statement?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, they were killed.'

MR LAX: So how could ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: And it was after, you said in your statement it was after they had been found that you went and got him?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: We looked for Langeza before we could discover the three murdered bodies.   By the time we discovered Langeza, the other three had already been killed a long time.

MR MATTHEWS: So Langeza was suspected of participating in the abduction of these three persons?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: He was not being suspected, but he was saw, they saw him.

MR MATTHEWS: So there was actually evidence that he had done so, is that what you say?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, somebody witnessed this, and he is the one who furnished us with this information.   We did not pick on him.

MR LAX: You still haven't answered my previous question, and I'm not going to let it lie yet.   I asked you why did you not take the other people that you murdered to the police, like you were going to take Langeza?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I will explain it in this fashion, the Ixopo Police Station, I did not favour it so much because it was flooded with ANC people, the Ixopo Police Station that is.

MR LAX: Well which police station were you taking Langeza to?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: The community would have decided that in my absence, because I left them at the door and I went back into the house.

MR LAX: So why didn't you let the community decide which police station to take those other people to that you shot, instead of shooting them?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: When you have killed, or once you have killed, I would read the situation to be you may as well dedicate yourself as well.   At the time the violence had intensified.

MR MATTHEWS: Now, when these three persons who were abducted were buried, there was further trouble when you fired at two police in a vehicle, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, I'm the one who shot the police, not realising that they were policemen, I thought they were part of the attackers and I thought they were attacking us and we shot at them and they shot at us, so there was cross fire, until they fled and called the soldiers to intervene.

MR MATTHEWS: Did you then flee?

CHAIRPERSON: But in fact they were not attacking?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: The police first fled.

CHAIRPERSON: You started the shooting and they fired back at you, they returned the fire, didn't they?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That's very true, I started to shoot first.   The police killed as they were shooting, one boy, who never even shot and did not even have a gun in his possession, he was killed as a result of this.

MR MATTHEWS: Now there are a number of incidents where you were on guard duty at Mhluli's home in Stanger, at Maidans's home in Ozowatene, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, but I did not injure anyone in those places you've made mention of.

MR LAX: Well except to say this much, that with regard to Mhluli's home, you say that in the mornings after you'd been shooting, you'd find blood where you'd shot at, but you wouldn't find the victims?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, that's true.

MR LAX: Surely you must come to the conclusion that you must have shot somebody, but you don't know who they are?