Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: But you see Mr Kloppers, if you have any - please tell me - it's seems to me you had no reasonable basis on which to believe that those people were in fact members of the ANC?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: The only reason why I believed that they were members of the ANC was because they answered me and if AWB members were standing in front of you and asking you if you were a member of the ANC you would give the right answer and say that you are a member of the ANC.  We stopped many vehicles and many of them...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear my question?  My question is - you are not saying you have no basis on which to believe that they were ANC because I know you say they told you - I'm saying you had no reasonable basis on which to believe that they were members of ANC because they said so at a time when they're being intimidated, assaulted?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I believe that that is when one would speak the truth.  I spoke the truth and said that I had shot people.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that's why I asked you another question earlier on, I asked you - you say they did not know what was waiting for them.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: They did not know that you were going to kill them or give them sweets?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: They didn't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Why then would they lie if they're not members of the ANC, why then would they lie that time - why would they lie and say "we are members of the ANC" unless they are assaulted - they do it as a result of assault and intimidation?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I don't know, I only know that we asked everyone the same questions consistently and if they answered affirmatively that is how they would have been selected.

CHAIRPERSON: Or perhaps I should also put this across to you because Mr Brink is not here.  What would you say they were to come and say that, at least some of them, come and say that in fact they never told you that they were members of the ANC?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: The question was posed to me and I would not be able to answer that.  On that evening everyone answered affirmatively to the question.

CHAIRPERSON: The one thing I also want to ask you in that you amended some papers to say to us that Oelofse's name must be put in, you had forgotten, you had made a mistake, it should have been put in - do you remember that?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you manage to forget somebody from whom you had obtained direct instructions?  Or was the mistake by your counsel?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: You'll have to put this question to my advocate because they received direct instructions, written instructions from us and they compiled the documentation on behalf of us.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs van der Walt?

MR WAGENAAR: If I might follow up one question?
	Mr Kloppers, you've said - I'm not sure if it was an answer to a question from Advocate Bosman - that it was about the fact that you were openly appearing in camouflage uniform with AWB symbols.  You expected this incident would be headline news in the papers the following day, is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes.

MR WAGENAAR: Mr Kloppers you also expected that throughout the country in all areas some or other action would take place which would start the revolution, is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes.

MR WAGENAAR: Why did you expect that this incident would be headline news and not in every paper, the news that the revolution had begun because of five, six, seven hundred incidents the previous night?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: The reason why I said that was because Randfontein is a very isolated town on the West Rand and that is why I thought it would be main news, if it had been headline news in another newspaper it would have been to our benefit.

MR WAGENAAR: Which newspaper are you referring to?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: The Randfontein Herald.

MR WAGENAAR: But you said if it had been a headline article in any other newspapers it would have been to your benefit.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: And it would have indicated that a revolution was under way.

MR WAGENAAR: You expected that every area would launch an operation that night from Johannesburg to Randfontein, to Ventersdorp, to Cathcart, to Newcastle, all the way through the Eastern Province, everywhere there would be actions.  Why did you then expect your action would reach the front page of the newspapers?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Perhaps I misquoted when I said front page but I did expect that it would be part of the main news bulletin.

MR WAGENAAR: One of the four hundred occasions?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes it would have made part of the main news.

MR WAGENAAR: So you didn't think that this incident would be the front page news?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No not this incident in isolation but in all newspapers there would be some kind of news regarding these actions.

MR WAGENAAR: So you did not think that someone might have undertaken more spectacular action somewhere else in the country?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: To me it wasn't about whether someone committed a greater deed than I deed, to me it was about the target group.

MR WAGENAAR: But you expected that your target group and the action in relation to that would fetch the front pages of the newspapers?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: The local newspapers, yes.

MR WAGENAAR: Do you have more than one local newspaper?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: We have two.

MR WAGENAAR: Do they appear daily or weekly?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Weekly.

MR WAGENAAR: But the following day you expected to find it in the local newspaper?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It was Sunday, the newspaper would be printed on the Thursday so I could not expect it to appear the following day.

MR WAGENAAR: Thank you Mr Kloppers.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs van der Walt I'm afraid that maybe you should commence your re-examination when next we sit, I see it's nearly four o'clock.  It may be that you would like to take some bit of time to cover various aspects?

MRS VAN DER WALT: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we then - Mr Dreyer and Mr Knoetze, you will recall we thought that we could have this matter postponed to the 10th June.  Will everybody still be available?  Mr Prinsloo?  Subject to what you explained to us in chambers that you'd be available for the 10th provided the matter that you would be - you would have commenced the previous week would be finalised before the term?

ADV PRINSLOO: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR WAGENAAR: Mr Chair may we also ask Mr Dreyer to secure that we have at least a statement from Oelofse before we proceed again?