Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 2000-02-14

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, I just want to enquire about one thing.  What happened to Kwazi Mbambo during this attack?  Where was he

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: He ran away, he never turned back.

MR PANDAY: Sorry, Mr Chairman, if I just ...(indistinct) on a question.
	Mr Ngubane, when did the violence and faction fighting start in the Umkababa area, what year?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I think it was around 1987/1988.

MR PANDAY: Now you mentioned that Mr Cele was attacked, do you recall what year he was attacked?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Please repeat that question.

MR PANDAY: You mention that the deceased, Mbukazi, attacked various people and a few names you mentioned, one was Mr Cele, the family, the two men and one child were killed, do you recall in what year they were attacked?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: If I'm not mistaken it was around 1990, that was when that family was killed.  My brother was attacked on the 1st of January 1990.  In fact is was New Year's Eve, just before the 1st of January 1990.

MR PANDAY: So your brother attacked on the 1st of January 1990? - just before.  And the Hlope family?  Mr Hlope?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: It was an incident that happened after my brother was attacked.

MR PANDAY: So was that also during 1990?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: And the other incidents you mentioned, do you recall when they occurred?  I can't recall the names.

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I think it was around 1991.

MR PANDAY: Alright.  Now my question to you is, Mr Ngubane, did the ANC know of all these attacks?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: The ANC was informed if people were attacked.

MR PANDAY: Do you have any idea why the ANC had done nothing about these attacks?

MR DEHAL: It's not his evidence that the ANC did nothing about it.

MR PANDAY: Well Mr Chairman, if I can recall the deceased was only attacked and killed in 1992, my point being made is that these attacks were going on since 1990 ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: I think the point is they reported it to the police, the ANC.

MR PANDAY: As the Chairman, pleases.  I'll rephrase the question.
	Mr Ngubane, besides - the ANC, did they consider Ngubane to be a threat to the organisation - sorry, did they consider Mbukazi to be a threat to the organisation?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes.

MR PANDAY: And besides reporting the matter to the police, do you know of any other actions they intended taking against Mr Mbukazi?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: No, I am not aware of any steps that were taken by the ANC with regards to Mr Mbukazi, but I think his death also was a relief to them because he was responsible for attacks on them.

MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman, nothing further.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY

INTERPRETER: Through you, Mr Chairman, I would like to request a two minute adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll take a very short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: ... contact with Ms or Mrs Alzina Luthuli at her place of work and that means that we will have to make - sorry, not we but others will have to make an effort to find her tonight at her place of residence because I think certainly, and I think I'm speaking on behalf of the Committee, we are satisfied that she would be an extremely relevant witness in light of the affidavit she has made and we would have to adjourn till tomorrow at the earliest, to see whether arrangements can be made.  Do you agree with us?

MR DEHAL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Indeed I agree, I have just one reservation to make, or one comment to make in reservation and that is, we've never seen this girl, Alzina, this matter's been set down I think for the third time now before this Committee, once in Pietermaritzburg she was never there present, the Committee there was different, then once again here in Pinetown and the witness was not here, endeavours were made to trace her, now today she's not here.  But I agree that it should be adjourned, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I must say that I feel - and I speak now as the Vice-Chairman of the Amnesty Committee, that any blame that attaches may well attach to the system carried out by the Amnesty Committee.  It seems to me that where one is in possession of an affidavit or statement is it, a statement that is obviously of extreme importance, we should have made arrangements to have someone consult with her to ascertain her availability and to give her notice, and I don't think that we have done that, I think that it's been left to the attorneys appearing who are only able to start making approaches after they've been notified of the date of set-down, on pretty short notice sometimes.  And I have said this before and I say it again, that I think it is vitally important that where it does appear that evidence, information, is of importance and is of relevance to a hearing, that we as a Committee are responsible for making arrangements to ensure that such evidence is available at the hearing without further adjournments inconveniencing applicants and others, and I to that extent apologise to you gentlemen.

MR DEHAL: Thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I gather there are certain questions that the attorney for the victims wishes to ask and there's one or two which I would like to ask, and I don't know if my colleagues have any, but perhaps we could dispose of that so the applicant can finish.  If I could just ask mine.
	I don't think - you may have told us, but I don't think you have told us, Mr Ngubane, what time was it when these people came to where you were at Mr Myene's house?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: It was around seven in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: In the morning that was.

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The other question - I don't know if you can help us with this, I think there are other witnesses who can, or other sources of information, how old was the deceased at the time of his death?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I am not certain of his age, but I think he was older than 20.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you wouldn't argue with 21?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: No, I would not dispute that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

JUDGE DE JAGER: How old were you at the time?  Or how old are you today?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I'm 32 years old.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now?  Are you now 32 years old?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Because you told us that you've been interested in the ANC since 1977, is that correct?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, when I first heard of it, it was still the UDF.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But at that stage you would only have been 10 years old.

MR MAPOMA: Sorry Sir, to interrupt, I thought he said 1987.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Oh, '87, I had a note '77.

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, I think Mr Chairman is also right, it was 1977 according to my notes as well.

MR DEHAL: I also have '77.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Were you only 10 years old at that stage?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I think it was around there.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Ja.  And you've told us that you've made standard seven, is that correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Can you read English?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: No.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Weren't you taught English at school?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, we did read English.

JUDGE DE JAGER: I don't intend saying that you know English well, but a person in standard seven would be able to read and understand English at least.

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I cannot claim to know English well, but I do understand here and there, but I know less about English.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And the papers here today, were you able to read and understand what some of the statements would say?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I may be able to read it, but I do not think I'd be in a position to understand and explain it in isiZulu.

CHAIRPERSON: When were you in standard seven?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: It was around 1987.

CHAIRPERSON: Round '87.

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, I think so.