Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: embridge, to get to the bottom of thetruth. It is not me.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, I have no otherquestions. Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: ckerman.

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: Thank you. Mr Judge, mayI thank you for the opportunity to, I am not sure whether I have oversteppedthe boundaries of this particular

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee in what I did with the applicants,in asking them to face me, if I have, I apologise, but I am sure that you canunderstand. Thank you very much for this opportunity. We need reconciliation.

CHAIRPERSON: We understand Mr

<UNKNOWN>: ckerman. Thank you. Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rink, are there any questions youwish to put to this witness?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: ckerman.

DAWID JAKOBUS ACKERMAN: Thank you.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: We have no further witnesses Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge, did I understand that you were in a position to hand in a writtenaddress to the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I am unfortunately not yet inthat position, no Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Mysubmissions are being prepared, but they are not yet finalised.

CHAIRPERSON: When do you expect that to be ready Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: It willpossibly be ready later this afternoon, but given your indications that the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee does not intend to sit past four o'clock, I don't know if it willbe ready by that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you be able to bring them in tomorrowmorning or send them in tomorrow?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: That could probably bearranged.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rendse?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, Icould address you shortly alternatively hand up written submissions, but I amafraid it is not going to be until Monday.

CHAIRPERSON: The matter is ofgreat gravity and I think that justice should be done properly and if it meansgiving you a day or two to do it, the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee would be prepared to do that.

ADVARENDSE: Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge, likewise,if Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rendse has until Monday to hand in his written submissions, if you findit necessary to do so, you could also have that time to make your submissionsavailable to the offices here by Monday.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I will do thatMr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rink, is there anythingfurther?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Just one thing Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

<UNKNOWN>: o-member of your

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee,

<UNKNOWN>: dv De Jager, asked me to ascertain whether the applicant Makoma was assistingin his application for amnesty in respect of the police ambush which is referredto in his application, I understand that he is not.

CHAIRPERSON: While weare about it, your clients are out on bail, two of them?

NORMAN ARENDSE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What are the offences for which they are outon bail?

NORMAN ARENDSE: They are out on bail in respect of the St Jamesincident, Mkhumbuzi and Mlambisa.

CHAIRPERSON: In respect of the same offencesthat Mr Makoma was charged with?

<UNKNOWN>: nd found guilty and sentenced,yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rink, are you in a position to talk to us about thematter that was set down for tomorrow morning?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: I understandthat Mr Mpshe is here to deal with that?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mpshe, canyou come forward please.

<UNKNOWN>: DV MPSHE Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman and members of the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee,I am going to request for a postponement in tomorrow's matter Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman. Firstperhaps I must request that it be done today, even if the matter was scheduledfor tomorrow. The reasons for the postponement Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, are that a requesthas been made by both the legal representatives for the applicant, Mr Riaan

<UNKNOWN>: ellingham as well as the legal representative for the victims. I have theirrequests in writing. Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, the second reason is that as a result of investigationthat was conducted by our investigative unit, it has emerged that certain peopleare likely to be implicated and these people have not yet been informed accordingly.

CHAIRPERSON: That has only come to light recently?

<UNKNOWN>: DV MPSHE Recently Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: DV MPSHE

<UNKNOWN>: nd the

<UNKNOWN>: ct enjoins us to inform the said people in termsof Section 19 of our enabling

<UNKNOWN>: ct. Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, I may further state that I havediscussed the matter pertaining to the date with both

<UNKNOWN>: ttorneys on both sides,and the dates agreed upon are the 13th to the 16th of October, current year.

CHAIRPERSON: In

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town?

<UNKNOWN>: DV MPSHE In

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thename of the case?

<UNKNOWN>: DV MPSHE The name of the case it is Thabelo JohannesMbelo, that is the first applicant. The second applicant Willem Riaan

<UNKNOWN>: ellingham,matter is number 3785/96 and 5283/97.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

<UNKNOWN>: DV MPSHE Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, may I further state that the lawyers on both sides have requestedme to put this on record that they will not be available and they are not herecurrently, but they are aware of the postponement as well as the victims. WhenI phoned the lawyers yesterday, he was with them and he conveyed this to them.The only problem that we have is one, it is about one of the

<UNKNOWN>: fricans, thatis Mr Mbelo. Mr Mbelo has not been notified but attempts have been made. Heis currently in the South

<UNKNOWN>: frican Police Service, we left three messages witha Mr Ruiter who said at four o'clock Mr Mbelo will be reporting at the policestation and he shall inform him accordingly. We shall endeavour further to makesure that we talk to him personally. Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

CHAIRPERSON: The matter of Mbelo and

<UNKNOWN>: ellingham is accordingly adjourned till the 13th tothe 16th of October, 1997 here in

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town.

<UNKNOWN>: DV MPSHE Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

CHAIRPERSON: If there is nothing further, the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee will nowadjourn.

<UNKNOWN>: efore adjourning, I must thank counsel on both sides who have assistedin making the work of the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee perhaps a little less difficult than itis. Thank you.

<UNKNOWN>: OMMITTEE

<UNKNOWN>: DJOURNS .