Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1996-11-26

UNKNOWN: Well, as I - as she now  put everything on to you - I can - about to say, how could the - the way he went out of the house - I was on night shift and I was - she  was working and I always make the food if I am on night shift.  
And that particular day he was cleaning the house and he was peeling the potatoes - so that was - say fiveish .  And all of a sudden, I just went to the toilet and I came out and he left.  Because he  - he wouldn't leave if I were at the table still.  So it is about two or three minutes later my next door neighbour's daughter came to me and told me - listen Mr Bailey, that there was - your son was shot now.
I went over to another old friend of us at - that also moved in at the same time as we did - in 1978,  and I told her listen her  my son is shot - what must I do?   Because I never experienced something like that.  Because with the Law, I was just distant.  Because I didn't want to participate in any wrong doings. 
So I went to my child and I just bent over and want to see his face and this ou said - hey,  fok of hierso, weg man.   Fuck off  away from here.  That was - and I stood up and I went home.  That was before she came so  I went home again and I - in  the house - as she came through the back side, I told her - listen here,   Kaffer  they just shot your - our son now there.  So she went out and I still stayed in the house, because I was too sad and I couldn't move.  Shocked in other words.
And with the police,  the  - what you called it - the man in charge there, he was rude and I still said to him - listen here, I don't accept this thing - that the boys threw stones.  Because they couldn't even be at that - where the tyres was burning.  They couldn't be there, because the distance where the tyres was burning and where the bus stop is, and the place where they was shot at, is quite a distance.  He couldn't throw stones in that time.  
And they were just at the - they were just there the wrong time, the wrong place.  That's all that had happened and that the  police commander was rude and just at the morgue too - they just said, listen here, there is the window, go and look there.  
And after that, the day of the funeral - we was so nervous and afraid of everything, because the Casspirs and the police was -  they were now trying to escort the hearse  to the graveyard.   So I said - listen, just get finish and let us forget about this business.  That's all I can say about that.

WENDY ORR: Thank you very much Mr and Ms Bailey.    I have no further questions, but perhaps my colleagues do.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Wendy, Glenda - Ms Bailey, the policeman that you met in the street, you said it was a white policeman?

UNKNOWN: Yes, an European policeman.

ADV POTGIETER: And what kind of uniform was he wearing was it...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: Blue, he had on a blue uniform such a  - that floppy jackets with the big pockets - I can still remember and he had the blue boots on, that what he had on.

ADV POTGIETER: And, did he had a fire arm with him?

UNKNOWN: No, he had no fire arm with him.

ADV POTGIETER: Is there any other description that you can give of him?  Was he young - oldish?

UNKNOWN: He is a young - he is a young policeman.  He's got blond so  reddish blond hair. He is a very handsome -  he is a handsome policeman.  Because I can still remember, when I went to work, there was a guy that just started to work there, so  I still say to him - jy lyk nes daai jong wat my kind geskiet het.  You just looks like the guy that shot my child.  But the one that stood over my son with the rifle, he was an oldish policeman.

ADV POTGIETER: And it appears that the younger one is the one that was doing some shooting?

UNKNOWN: Ja well, that is what he said to me.  He didn't know why he did it.  And I never asked him any questions.  I just looked at him and I walked on.

ADV POTGIETER: Now, were you present at the inquest at court?

UNKNOWN: There was no court case for us.  Just that hokkie when the first time and the second time we went, they just called us back into that little room and just said to us - it is over.  There is nothing they can do,  so we left.

ADV POTGIETER: So you were not sitting in at a hearing?

UNKNOWN: Nothing

ADV POTGIETER: Where you heard what was going on and what is alleged to what have happened.

UNKNOWN: No sir, nothing.

ADV POTGIETER: Nothing like that?

UNKNOWN: Nothing - - just that little room, that is all.

ADV POTGIETER: That was in the court in Wynberg?

UNKNOWN: In Wynberg.

ADV POTGIETER: Now I have explained to Ms Paulsen - Mr and Ms Paulsen what the official version is of what happened and the fact that the police were shooting - was - who were apparently hiding behind one of the walls near to Eisleben Road.  
And of course, that eventually the Magistrate who held the inquest, found that nobody could be held responsible for the deaths.  In fact, found that the police were acting in self defence.  So, it is obviously a bit difficult to understand if you are hiding behind a wall, that you could have acted in self defence against you know a 13 year old.
But those are the questions that remain in this case.  And those are the questions that we will be looking at.  We have done some of the investigation as I've  explained to the Paulsens. And we will continue with the matter to see what happened. 
Of course, on what you tell us, there is now obviously a contradiction in the sense that - when the policeman, who was responsible for the shooting, met you - he said I don't know why I did it.

UNKNOWN: Yes, he did say so.  That was his words,  I don't know if he did the shooting, but I mean, that was his words to me.

ADV POTGIETER: But even, if he didn't do the shooting, then at least his view was that there was no reason to have been shooting in any event.  Which of course is different from the official version which is - well we have to defend ourselves.  So, those are all the questions that arise.  And that we have noted from your testimony and from the facts and those are the things that will enjoy our attention as we go along.
As I have said to the Paulsen family, I mean, there is very little that one can do and say that will really console you and make up for that loss, because it is probably the most devastating blow to a parent - to loose a child, a young child.  Especially under these kind of unnatural circumstances.  He wasn't sick he was - you say he was active.  He was a sportsman, he was a normal young - young boy.  And the one minute he was alive and the next minute he was dead.  So of course, that is very-very hard.  We do understand that.  But as I've said earlier that, that  is the very-very high price that was paid by a lot of people and all that the rest of us can do is to try and appreciate - you know, what losses people have suffered who were directly involved.  
But thank you very much for coming.  Thank you for sharing your testimony with us.

UNKNOWN: Can I just say something.  I just hope in the future that there will be a more - better playing grounds for the children and more skills.  I mean, I wouldn't like something that happened in '84 to happen to my grandchildren, your grandchildren.  Or anybody's grandchildren. 
So I just hope that - I am very grateful to the Truth Commission - that we can tell our story.  That it's - you know that we know - don't have to keep it inside.  And I can tell you - I feel much better now that it is out.

ADV POTGIETER: We appreciate that.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

ADV POTGIETER: Very much, that's the type of thing that makes this process worth while for us as well.

UNKNOWN: Ja.

ADV POTGIETER: But hank you very much for coming.

UNKNOWN: Thank you sir.

UNKNOWN: We thank you.