Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-07

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions that you wish to put?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Sir, just one or two.

CHAIRPERSON: Quickly, let's hear it.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Elese, was there any relationship between Mr Nongwe and the PAC?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Yes, I can say that.

MR MAPOMA: Can you expatiate on that?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: He was having some meetings with the PAC in that area.  He was meeting with them regularly on the basis of WCUSA because he was a squatter leader and he was also holding as a Chairperson of WCUSA although he was also a Chairperson of the ANC, he was also a Chairperson of the civic structure in the squatter area.
	On the other side, in the houses there was SANCO where members of the two political organisations are meeting, where the incident occurred.  Even on that other side, we have been having relationship with the PAC, we have been having bilateral meetings, meeting with the PAC because around this development thing, we have been meeting with them regularly and forward our things as a joint thing which is coming from the houses and how we see the development of the area.

MR MAPOMA: When was Mr Nongwe expelled from the ANC?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: He was expelled in 1993, after this incident, and there was a Commission which was done by the organisation and it was led by Vincent Diba.  He is now in Province, he is a MEC here at Cape Town.  He was the person who was investigating the whole thing within the organisation.

MR MAPOMA: Now between ...[intervention]

DEPOUTCH ELESE: At the end of the day, when the findings of the organisation was found, then he was expelled.

MR MAPOMA: Let me just get this clear, between Mr Nongwe's expulsion from the ANC and the incident of the attack at your family, which one happened first?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: It was the incident occurring at our family.

MR MAPOMA: So, when you were attacked, Mr Nongwe was still a member of the ANC?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: He was still a member of the ANC, he was a Chairperson of the ANC at Section 4 and he was also a Chairperson of WCUSA.

MR MAPOMA: In your evidence you seem to dispute that the applicant was a member of the ANC.  Is it your evidence that you dispute that he was a member of the ANC?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: The applicant?

MR MAPOMA: I am sorry, sorry Chairperson.  Do you dispute that the applicant was a member of the PAC?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Yes, I dispute that because on the basis of the information which I've got from court firstly when he testified that he is not a member of any organisation, and also I have made my own investigation, where he stays at Lusaka at Nyanga.  Then I also investigated there, then I found that he was not a member of any political organisation, even there.  He was only working in the taxi.

MR MAPOMA: Now, I've got a letter here from the PAC which I would like you to have a comment on.  I am sorry Chairperson, for not having handed in this letter as part of the bundle, but I think now at this point it may be relevant to a certain extent.  I would like to hand it in Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: This letter will go in as Exhibit A.  Yes?

MR MAPOMA: I would like to have your comment on that letter.  This letter, the general content of it is that the PAC claim the applicant to be their member at the time he was arrested and convicted, what is your comment on this?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: My comment is that as you see a letter first, the person maybe was misinformed, because if you see down there, the person that signed  Mr Louiso Ngwayo, he is from Gauteng Province.  Why the Regional Coordinator of the PAC was not here because they are saying Gauteng Provincial Coordinator.  Why the Western Cape was not writing this letter?
	Maybe they want to dodge, maybe they want to hide something, that is why they are using a Gauteng person, why not a Western Cape.

MR MAPOMA: During the trial of the applicant, was there any demonstration of any kind or support of some kind from the PAC that was demonstrated at the trial?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: There was no support from the PAC, who went to the trial to picket firstly outside the Supreme Court, there was no such thing.
	It was only his own family who went on the trial, his brother and his wife, that were the only people who went on the trial from day one to the last day.
	If the PAC is claiming, they were supposed to picket outside the court, they were supposed to hear the deliberations of the Court, but that didn't happen in this instance.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.  Now, you said you know Victor Sam.  To your knowledge, to which political organisation did he belong to during the period when you were attacked?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: At the time Victor was an ANC member, although now recently, he have joined the UDM.  In my knowledge he never became a member of the PAC, he was a member of the ANC, recently now, he have joined the UDM in this year.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Mapoma.
	Okay, this Victor Sam, just to get more clarity about his involvement in all this, when Nongwe left the ANC, did Victor Sam go along with him, did he join forces with him, what is his position?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: As far as I know, he is an organiser now from the UDM.  He was just an ordinary member in the ANC.

ADV SANDI: He did not follow Nongwe when he left the ANC?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: He didn't leave when Nongwe was expelled.  He stayed with the ANC up until this year when he left the ANC to join the UDM.  Nongwe was expelled long ago.

ADV SANDI: Are you able to say anything just by way of a comment, the relationship between Nongwe and Sam during that particular time?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: He was very much close to Mr Nongwe at that time.  He was loyal to him.

ADV SANDI: How did he show his being loyal to Nongwe?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: At that time, he was a bodyguard of Nongwe.  Even when he went to meetings, he was with him, looking after him and then he will drive him.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR FORTUIN: Just one or two questions.  Mr Elese, is it strange for the political organisations to meet with other constituencies in their particular area, like say for example at Unathi, if there is an organisation, a civic structure, would there be regular contact between the ANC and that structure or structures?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: A civic structure, it is taking all political organisations, whether you are ANC, IFP, National  Party, UDM which is now presently, but the civic structure, all those people will be inside that particular organisation.  It is dealing with the day to day issues of the community, not looking the political affiliation of any individual.

MR FORTUIN: Was there any ANC structures in the area that Mr Nongwe controlled?  ANC Branch, I mean?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: He was the Chairperson of Section 4, ANC Branch at that time, and he was also a Chairperson of WCUSA.

MR FORTUIN: So, it wouldn't be strange if there is a meeting between Nongwe and the PAC Branch that was established in that area?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Unfortunately in Crossroads the PAC was having one Branch in my area.  They were calling themselves Crossroads Branch, they didn't have any separate Branches as the ANC.  The ANC is having five Branches in that area, but the PAC is still having one Branch, even today because of their membership.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Elese, is there anything else that you want to convey to the Commission as regards to your feeling about the amnesty application?