Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 1998-10-20

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I don't know the person because I don't know people of Somkomo very well.  We only went there because we had a purpose of attacking.  When they were investigating the matter that did not surface as well but I did mention that I am sure about a person in Somkomo who was shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Who shot that person?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: The boys who had the shotguns, coming from Mkukuza, who were at the back of the car.  I am very sure, so certain about this.  I mean even Zwelaki and Mdu know very well about this and even the police from Ndwedwe.  I am definitely, definitely sure about this, that a person was killed or shot in Mkukuza.  I am so sure, very sure ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] sure about it Mr Gwamanda, could you just continue please.

MR LAX: Sorry, before he does.
	When exactly was this particular incident you're talking about?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: In 1993.

MR LAX: ...[inaudible] after this kombi incident with the taxi driver or before that?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Before.  What was happening at the taxi driver's premises people knew very well.  This happened after, before I was arrested on the 6th of December when I took this information to or reported it to the police.

MR LAX: What we're trying to do Mr Gwamanda, is we are trying to put a chronological order into your story so that it can ...[intervention]

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I hear that very well, but this happened after the taxi driver incident.  When this incident of the taxi driver happened the police seemed not too sure about what was happening but I'm definitely sure.

MR MCHUNU: ...[inaudible] also be in a position to say how long after the incident of the taxi driver?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I'm trying to explain now about this operation of these boys and the Cele issue.  It was not too long after that.  I'm counting these things or I'm relating these things in the way they happened chronologically.

MR MCHUNU: ...[inaudible] days or hours or even months?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: This is how I will explain this, let me go through my calendar of 1993 and give you accurate information.  It may be the 1st or the 2nd, I'm not too sure for the taxi driver but I'm think the taxi driver issue was around 29 November.  Then on the 30th, it may be on the 30th because these operations happened one after another.
	I remember I was feeling sleepy at this particular incident because it's been some time that I had not had rest because of being so involved and busy.  This must have happened around the time between the 30th and the 1st of December.
"It was at the time when I found people or a gang from Mkukuza and Mpumalanga.  Now amongst that gang the person I remember very well, explicitly so was Mashunisa.  That was a nickname because they will say before it's dusk there's got to be a person who should be killed, so the name Mashunisa stemmed from that understanding.
	They were there at Sishi, that's where the police had gathered as well and there were various operations.  Some left with Giba in a bakkie and we used an Indian bakkie of Tongaat.  I think about 16 to 18, that was the number of the group I belonged to.  
	That is why I'm saying I am definitely sure that we killed a person or we shot a person because Giba came and joined us and it was said that he's bringing guns from Ulundi.  Gipa was known.  Whenever Gipa was being seen he would be driving this bakkie because he was transporting the guns from Ulundi, from Powen, the very guns that he referred to as the kwaZulu Natal guns.  They were the guns that were used to terrorise people and he had AK's as well and the guns that were being used by the ZP's, G3's and shotguns.  He brought them with as well.  We were about 18 in that bakkie.
	We also had other people like Stolz, Sabata as well as Keke and Nzama.  
	We were in the company of those police in our group and there was another policeman I did not know at the time.  I did not know his surname.  He was from Ndwedwe.  He was the one organising people or a gang from Mkukuza.  We left.  
	I may not know all the people who gathered there.  You get there and you take your weapon and off you go on a mission, you don't have time to figure around as to who is who and the names as well.  I told myself I will give a full report after everything has happened.  
	I took into consideration the police and the Boers who would arrive at Mfayela's house to give explanations or directions as to who should be killed.  We left with that group.  The one that was with Gipa reported that a woman and a man were killed.  People who were affiliated to ANC I suppose.  That's the report they gave back, that a man and a woman were killed.  But our group killed a person who was walking along the streets.
	And another house that was shot far away from where we were we did not get into the premises or the house but we shot from outside.  This is what our group did.  After we left to give the report to Father Mfayela.  He was respected because of killing people.  
	I then decided to change my mind because there were other people of ANC that I had already leaked some information to.  I also said: 'We are the ones who are killing people, given the mandate by the parliament to kill people around.  We are the ones, it's not the Ndwedwe policemen as such who were the killers'.  
	You would think those were the Ndwedwe policemen who were killing, yet it was not true, it was us who were killing.  Even the community of Ndwedwe did not trust that much the police but they did not know or rather they knew little about the activities of my group but I know very well that Mufumadi must not entertain these police in the police force because they are killers.  Mfayela is a killer himself and his hands are full of blood and he is spoiling the whole parliament of kwaZulu Natal.
	Inasfar, or with regard to the other incidents or issues I may explain thusfar.  There are things that I was not directly involved in, like the third force activities of kwaZulu Natal.  I'm not in a position to divulge such information to the Truth Commission with regard to those activities but what I've already given to the Commission must be taken further than this because I know very well the activities of kwaZulu Natal although I'm not in a position to divulge more ..."

MR LAX: ...[inaudible] in a whole lot of general terms, are there aspects of your application, any other incidents that you want to tell us about specifically?  This is very general stuff that you're now saying, can you try and stick to the specifics of the application?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I'm done.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MCHUNU: I understand that in one of the operations, I think at the stage when groups of 18 ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat his question?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MCHUNU: Yes, thank you very much, Mr Chairman.
	I understand that in one of the incidents, particularly when groups were divided, groups of 18 each, people, an attack was planned on Mr Meyiwa(?), is that right?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Yes.

MR MCHUNU: Do you know anything about that?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: That's when - there were times when there would be plans about attacks but I would not have been in attendance so I may not have full information.

MR MCHUNU: Would you briefly tell this Commission what you know?

CHAIRPERSON: About Meyiwa's death?