Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-24

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Col Botha informed us that a national team would be appointed, members from all over the country would come and de Beer, the local Durban man, would head up that.

MR WILLS: And what did he say you must do with de Beer?  I mean, obviously you knew your position with these two people from Operation Vula?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I had nothing to do with de Beer at all.

MR WILLS: Why not?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I had nothing to offer him.  I had no information to give him.

MR WILLS: Were you not told specifically not to co-operate with de Beer?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: We would never have even got to that Mr Chairman, I would not have anything to do with him anyway, I had nothing to give.

MR WILLS: Well, you had knowledge of the fact that you had two operatives under your control, that seems by all accounts were connected to Operation Vula, surely that would be useful for him?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I think Mr de Beer was after the information Sir, and I had nothing to give him, so I had nothing to deal with.

MR WILLS: You had information about the whereabouts of two people.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct.

MR WILLS: That is information.  That is vitally crucial information to somebody who's trying to solve or to get information on an operation, not so?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: If I had information, it would have been, but I had no information to give Mr de Beer, therefore I didn't even see him.

MR WILLS: What I'm suggesting is that you were told not to co-operate with de Beer, is that not so?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, I understand the question now, Sir.  Yes, Mr Chairman, we were informed not to mention anything about those arrests and those activities, yes.

MR LAX: But hang on a second Mr Wasserman.  You wouldn't have needed to be informed not to co-operate with, this wasn't your first operation that you were involved in unlawful activities.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: This is in fact almost  your last operation.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir, that's why I didn't understand ...(intervention)

MR LAX: You been involved in a stream of killings and unlawful activities all of which you kept hidden for years.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Sir, that's why I didn't understand exactly what the question coming from Mr Wills was.

MR LAX: But your evidence is that you were actually told to keep it quiet?  That's so improbably.  You guys didn't need to tell each other to keep it quiet, you knew jolly well that you'd broken the law and this thing had to remain a secret.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, that's correct.  But I didn't understand exactly where Mr Wills was coming from.

MR LAX: Yes, but that's why I'm puzzled by your evidence that you would have got an instruction to keep it quiet.  You would have known very well, you were an experienced policeman, you may be a sergeant, but you were a very experienced policeman.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Sir, I would not have mentioned it anyhow.

CHAIRPERSON: ...indistinct) at that stage.  All they were doing was detaining somebody.

MR LAX: But even if you hadn't have killed him, you knew that the detention was unlawful.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct Sir.

MR WILLS: I just want to dwell on that for a very short while longer.  It seems to me from the evidence of both Mr Botha and Mr Steyn, that there was an active decision taken to conceal, it wasn't just a case of hiding the information, there was an active decision to conceal your activities in relation to the arrests of these two people from de Beer, and that is what you were told.  That is what was told to you, not, to actively not co-operate with de Beer and to actively conceal the fact that you had these two people from de Beer.  Sorry.  I'm sorry.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I don't understand you sir.

MR WILLS: Sorry, I'm tired now,  Let me try and rephrase.  You had a, it seems from my understanding of Botha's evidence is that he made an active decision to conceal the information that he had these two people at the house in Verulam from de Beer.  Did you hear that evidence?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I heard the evidence yes.

MR WILLS: Now what I'm asking, is because you were in his select unit, he had opened, you were privy to this operation of his, but he also told you not to tell de Beer anything about that, about the fact that you had these people?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR WILLS: And did you ever have any communications with Mr Steyn, Gen Steyn?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, I didn't. Sir.

MR WILLS: So it was always, the only communications that came from Steyn, was via Botha?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir, that's correct.

MR WILLS: I want to turn now to the last days, the last day.  Did you see Ndaba and Shabalala on Saturday morning, the 14th?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: How wee they?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: They were fine, Sir.

MR LAX: They were fine?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR LAX: They weren't shaken up, scared, terrified?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman to me no not, although Mr Botha had told me Mr Ndaba was an anxious personality.

MR WILLS: Yes, but to you he looked fine?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR WILLS: To you, you didn't notice anything strange about him?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No.

MR WILLS: You wouldn't have come, told us that he was shaken up, trembling or anything like that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, he wasn't, whilst he was with me, no Sir, he wasn't.

MR WILLS: You then say to them, or how was it, who communicated to them that you were going to remove them to another safe-house?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Botha was taking the lead in that.

MR WILLS: Yes, did you witness that communication?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Sir.

MR WILLS: What happened, tell me how?  I mean, from your point of view, I want you to go into as much detail as you can and I want you to be sensitive to the fact that I'm asking this question because the loved ones of those two people are here, they want to know what happened to their loved ones.  What happened that morning?  You got - what time did you go to work, or what time did you wake up from the safe-house?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I can't recall if I stayed at the safe-house that night, but I do know that we took Shabalala and Ndaba to a kombi, station wagon kombi.

MR WILLS: And who told you to do this?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Botha told us to do it.

MR WILLS: And when had he told you this?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Earlier on in the day, before the evening.

MR WILLS: What time are you talking about?  When did you get into the kombi?  What time?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I can't recall the time but it was night time, late night.

MR WILLS: Late night?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: On the Saturday night, the 14th?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR WILLS: And when had Mr Botha told you to put them in the kombi or take them to the kombi?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That was minutes- when did he tell me to put them in the kombi?

MR WILLS: Yes.  Or should I rather say, when did you know, you've told us that  you got an order, you got an instruction from Mr Botha that you were to assist in their elimination, when did that order come?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That was earlier on in the evening.

MR WILLS: Earlier on in the evening?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I can't recall, it was on the day, late afternoon, evening.

MR WILLS: Okay.  And then sometime at night you put these people in the kombi.  Did you lead?  Did you lead to the kombi?