Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1999-06-21

CHAIRPERSON: Morning, everybody. I apologise for the late start. When we commence hearings there's a lot of setting up to do and other arrangements to be made which explains the late start. I apologise for any inconvenience caused by this. 	Before we start with this hearing today, that is the hearing of Messrs Modisane and Mogale, I'd just like to introduce the Panel to you. On my right is Adv Sigodi, she is a member of the Amnesty Committee and she hails from Port Elizabeth. On my left is Adv Bosman, also a member of the Amnesty Committee. She comes from the Cape. And I'm Selwyn Miller, a judge of the High Court from the Eastern Cape, attached to the Transkei Division of that Court. I'd just like to ask the legal representatives please to place themselves on record.

MR DLAVANE: Thank you, Chairperson. I am Adv Dlavane. I am here representing the two applicants who'll be appearing before you this morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dlavane.

MR MULLIGAN: May it please you, Mr Chairperson, I'm Andre Mulligan. I'm appearing on behalf of the Seane family, who are here because their aunt, Elizabeth Mwasa, died as a result of what happened in 1988. Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mulligan.

MR SEABELA: Mr Chairperson, I am Bruno Seabela, I'm representing the Ntsime family who could not be here this morning, but who've given me instructions to represent them.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Seabela.

MS LOCKHAT: My name is Lyn Lockhat and I appear on behalf of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Lockhat. Mr Dlavane.

MR DLAVANE: Chairperson, may I call applicant no 1 as being, surname Modisane, first names Jonathan Pholele.

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: (sworn and states)

MR DLAVANE: Mr Modisane, you are here seeking an amnesty on an occurrence that took place on the 10th February 1988. Is that correct?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: That is correct, sir.

MR DLAVANE: Can you briefly describe for the Committee what was your occupation then?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: On that particular day, that is the 10th of February 1988, I was a driver, I was a member of the Bophuthatswana Defence Force, and I was a driver.

MR DLAVANE: What rank were you occupying in the Defence Force?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: I was, I did not have a rank there. I did not have rank.

MR DLAVANE: Which Defence Force was that?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: That was Bophuthatswana Defence Force.

MR DLAVANE: Now, as it has been introduced that you are seeking an amnesty for an occurrence of the 10th February 1988. Are you able to briefly describe for the Committee on this day what happened and what role did you play in the happenings of that day?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: On that particular day, it was 2 o'clock in the morning. Before that, on the 9th at 11 o'clock, Sergeant Major Timothy Pirie called us and said that he wanted to tell us something. After some time, we assembled. He explained to us that there is an operation which we need to execute. He told us he will come back and that we should not leave the base on that particular day. We waited until 2 o'clock in the morning. He later arrived. At the time I was a driver. We took a truck, then he explained to us in details about that particular operation.
	After that, we went to fetch arms in the storage. Each and every one was given a gun, a firearm. Then he sent us to drive to Geroma Building. When we arrived at Geroma Building ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what building?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: Geroma, Geroma Building.

MR DLAVANE: To help, Chairperson, Geroma Building is the name of the building that houses government departments.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dlavane.

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: When we arrived at Geroma Building, he said the drivers to stay in their vehicles and he said the passengers, that is members of the defence force, I would say those members of the Gat Unit, they went to Parliament. This is the building where they went, this is the old parliament where we went ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is that we are now? This place, here.

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: Yes, that is correct. We are in the same yard.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Modisane, could you just give us an idea approximately how many people? You say that you were told, you and the other drivers were told to wait at the trucks and the others went to the parliament building. What were the numbers? What numbers are we talking about here?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: Approximately 160 something people.

CHAIRPERSON: And were you all in uniform?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: Yes, we were in uniform, all of us.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Sorry, Mr Dlavane.

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: The reason for us to stay behind was that the truck which I was driving was loaded with firearms. Then if they, they had shortage of firearms, or maybe if there is a threat of people who want to thwart the operation, then we will give them extra firearms. Then the other truck was just parked there, which was loading member of the defence force.

MR DLAVANE: Mr Modisane, you mentioned that you were called by a person called Timothy Pirie. Can you just describe for the Committee who is this Pirie, who was this Pirie? And how did he come to picture?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: Timothy Pirie was a Sergeant Major, that is our Bophuthatswana Defence Protection Unit. He was the leader of the Unit and we received instructions from him.

MR DLAVANE: The other thing that I think you must clarify for the Committee is, you spoke of Pirie calling you into a meeting and advising you of an operation that was to be undertaken. What operation was that? Did he tell you?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: He explained later that the operation involved the overthrowing of the government. He told us about that explanation around 11 o'clock that it was involving the overthrowing of the government.

MR DLAVANE: Did this Timothy Pirie explain the reasons for such an action?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: Yes, he did explain the reasons.

MR DLAVANE: Just describe for the Committee the reasons that were outlined.
INTERPRETER ASKED FOR MORE TIME

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed now, Mr Modisane.

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: Sergeant Major Pirie explained to us that there is a lot of dissatisfaction about the government of that time. And then again we ...(indistinct) the various departments within the government, though he explained more about the Defence Force. He told us that there is maladministration within our department. Then he told us about nepotism. He told us about corruption. And then I gained that the whole community within Bophuthatswana are not satisfied and then he gave examples about chiefs who were removed from their positions. And then about forced removals. They were taken to various places which they did not like. Like killing animals, for example, donkeys which people used for transport. Those are the reasons which I'm able to remember at this time. Maybe I'll remember other reasons later.

MR DLAVANE: Mr Modisane, as this Timothy Pirie was addressing you on these reasons, you were a soldier by that time, did you agree with what he was saying to you?

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE: Yes, I was agreeing with him because many of the reasons he stated, I was able to experience. For example, within the Defence Force, you'd find that at times there would be a white person who'd just come and pass at the gate, wanting to see General Temmer, then the following day that person would be employed on higher rank.

MR DLAVANE: Now, you were busy outlining as to what happened then on that actual day. We hear that you was a driver and guns were loaded and then what happened then?