Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-30

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is possible, I wouldn't know the facts.

MR GORDHAN: Were you aware of the fact that I had a line of communication to the outside?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes we have the documents, your communications.

MR LAX: No, he's talking about aware of the fact that he was communicating from Bethlehem to the outside.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: We are in possession of the documentation.  His communications from his cell to the outside, his communications with others and with Mac Maharaj, the persons whom they thought they could use as couriers were actually policemen who conveyed this information to us.

MR GORDHAN: We'll contest that but leave that to another time, Mr Botha.  On the 25th July Mr Maharaj was arrested as you know and in his possession the police who arrested him found a draft of the ANC's proposal which later became part of the Pretoria Accord on the 6th August for a unilateral suspension of armed actions, are you aware of that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, I'm not aware of that.

MR GORDHAN: I put it to you that your seniors were aware of that, that probably you as central figure were aware of that and notwithstanding the fact that you knew that the ANC was about to declare in the next round on negotiations, unilaterally a suspension of armed actions you still insisted on assaulting detainees of the ANC?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson at that stage nothing was officially known from the ANC or SACP side.  In my own mind I believed that this Operation Vula was a 5 year plan which would establish a national revolution which would topple the country into absolute chaos so at that stage nothing was known and I cannot agree with the statement put by Mr Gordhan.

MR GORDHAN: Are you denying the fact that on the 6th August 1990 as part of the Pretoria Accord which was part of our history the ANC actually submitted this document as their proposal which was accepted and included in the accord that there will be a unilateral suspension of armed actions?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, what became known later is now history.  This took place in the times to which you have referred as something that I don't know about.

MR GORDHAN: No, I'm talking about that time, the 25th July is right in the middle of that period and I'm suggesting to you that it was your vindictiveness that led to the assault and it had nothing to do with your theory of revolutionary struggle?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, what happened with Mr Maharaj's arrest is something I don't know about.

MR GORDHAN: Mr Botha, as a result of that assault and the application to the then Supreme Court in Durban on or about the 16th August initiated by my family, the then Minister of Law and Order served in a letter/statement that no assault was committed and notwithstanding that, he would still give an undertaking that no other assaults would take place.  Now did the Minister say that no assault had taken place on the basis of information provided to him by people like yourself?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That would be so.

MR GORDHAN: So the Minister was mislead?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR GORDHAN: Was that common practice as well?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: As I've already said I did not inform anyone that I had been involved in an assault on Mr Gordhan thus it would have been a denial on my behalf in such an investigation.

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, that would conclude my questions and I want to make three comments if I may?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly Mr Gordhan.

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, although I haven't been the latitude to explore certain areas I want to submit to the Committee that Mr Botha is not making a full disclosure particularly about the arrest and I believe that the facts around that have been concocted to suit his particular version that he wants to put to the Committee now.  I believe that Charles Ndaba did not break down completely, nor was he an agent of the security branch at that time.
	And secondly, Chairperson, by virtue of all answers that we've heard there was no political motive for the assault, that this was a personal choice made, this was part of a historical pattern and style of work and that it was a manifestation of personal vindictiveness in a previous position to violence against persons like myself.
	Thirdly, that there was no proportionality in the relationship between the information requested and the techniques of assault used in that point in time.
	I conclude by saying that this matter is inextricably linked to the matters of Mbuso Shabalala and Charles Ndaba and that when the Committee has the full facts before it and has considered them it can determine whether to grant Mr Botha his amnesty or not.  Thank you very much.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR GORDHAN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Gordhan, what we'll do is, Mr Lalla will be given opportunity to question this application then there will be re-examination, then all the other applicants will testify and everybody will be given an opportunity to question them and then at the end of that, you and Mr Lalla as well as the applicants will be given a full opportunity to make submissions to the Panel for us to take into consideration in our deliberations.

MR GORDHAN: Thank you for your guidance, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lalla, do you have any questions you would like to put to this applicant?

MR LALLA: Yes.  I came here with the intention of not asking any questions and prior to my meeting I went to meet the applicants themselves and I wish them well.  Why am I saying this, why am I doing this?  Is it I must search for the truth and I think the truth around what took place and what were the events is important because I believe that Mr Botha over here is trying an impression or trying to create division in terms of what he regards as cooperation and he tortures, agent and he kills, so I'm in a bit of a dilemma.  Initially I came here but with no sense of hatred, no sense of anger and I felt that he is continuously throwing a spanner in the works to create division.  I'm going to ask him a few questions.
	Mr Botha, how many days was I in the country before I was arrested?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I think one or two days.

MR LALLA: I was here - he knows me quite well so he'll speak English to me.  I'll put it to you it was one day, I slept here in South Africa one night.
	Were you aware that I was coming into the country?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson.

MR LALLA: Were you aware of the task that I was about to perform?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, you told us that.

MR LALLA: I like this.  The reason why I'm asking is that you said four, five weeks ago, prior to the incident when we got arrested, Charles Ndaba had made contact with you and informed you of developments taking place, is that true?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR LALLA: Don't you see some contradiction in this process?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No.

MR LALLA: Okay, I'll leave that hanging there.  You said that you were aware of the means, you were aware of the people that I was working with and that is why you wanted to interrogate me or that is why you took this decision to subject me to.  Were you aware of the names and the real names of those individuals who I was working with.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson, that was the purpose behind my interrogation so that you could explain it to me.