Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-10

MR VISSER: (cont)
Thank you Mr Chairman.  Just before we step off the Melk River, the Melk Street murder, Mr Musi's murder, just on the question of instructions, Mr Motsamai, apparently, according to you, Mr Coetzee told you why George Musi had to be eliminated, if I understand you correctly.  Is that right?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Yes, did he tell you, also, why China had to be eliminated?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And what did he tell you?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That China was involved a lot in politics.

MR VISSER: Is that all?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is all.

MR VISSER: And did you personally agree that that was sufficient reason to kill him?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, according to the work we did.

MR VISSER: Why did you not, in your evidence in-chief or anywhere else, tell the Committee about the explanation that was given by Coetzee in regard to why China had to be eliminated?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I did not explain at all.

MR VISSER: You see, Mr Motsamai, the procedure which we are busy with is you are an applicant for amnesty and, I suggest to you, that you should make a full disclosure of all the facts relevant to your application.  Is it argument, Mr Chairman, if you rule that this is argument I will leave it.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting he has not been making a disclosure of enough facts, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: There is a subtle difference between throwing in hundreds of incidents and giving you full disclosure in regard to those incidents, Mr Chairman, but if you feel it is a matter of argument I will leave it.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you want to comment on that or do you want to leave it at that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: There is nothing I want to add. I received a command to go and kill those people.  There is nothing I am going to add to it.

MR VISSER: Let us proceed to the house and clinic of Mrs Winnie Mandela.  Just for background, for the Committee, I will make certain statements and please just tell me, as I go along, whether you agree or disagree with them.  Firstly, the house and the clinic are two separate buildings on the same erf.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: The clinic consists of two separate rooms.  The clinic consists of two separate rooms.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, it is right.

MR VISSER: The house has been divided into two units where two different families can live in.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: I am unfortunately not in the possession to make a firm statement as to how many rooms each of those units consist, but, perhaps, you know.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I am not sure how many rooms they have.

MR VISSER: All right.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: But there were two rooms.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Now, Mr Motsamai, as far as you are concerned, when you were given the instruction to burn the house of Mrs Winnie Mandela there was, apparently, Coetzee and Shaw had a problem on how to tell you this.  They appeared to be a bit coy about telling you what to do.  Do I understand you correctly?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Just a moment before I respond to your question.

MR VISSER: Is this the proverbial sitting on a different chair now, Mr Motsamai?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, there was a problem.  However, they did give us, give a command that showed they solved their problem amongst themselves.

MR VISSER: Yes and the way you did it, you explained to us, graphically, by pouring petrol over a cat after you poured petrol in the house and you let the cat run haphazardly through the house.  I am not going to repeat that, but then you added, Mr Motsamai, did you not, that the security branch at Brandfort, apparently, I assume, had tapped the telephone of Mrs Winnie Mandela.  Do you remember saying that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Is it also correct that, apparently, you monitored some of the conversations that took place over the telephone to Mrs Winnie Mandela's house or clinic, I am not certain which, but one of the two?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, that is not correct.

MR VISSER: Oh, I see, so when you gave evidence that,
"... we would write the names down and compare with our files ..."
that was not a reference to what you heard on the bugging of the telephone of Mrs Winnie Mandela?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so.  That was done by Mr Ramoseu.

MR VISSER: How would you react to the statement that Mrs Winnie Mandela did not have a telephone on that erf?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Sir, that depends from where Winnie phoned.  However, they could record what was said through, on the telephone.  Whether she phoned from the neighbour, but they could get conversations from the telephones.

MR VISSER: All right.  Do you agree that there was not a telephone installed on that erf?  As far as your knowledge goes?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: There was a telephone, because that telephone was bugged.

MR VISSER: Where was this telephone precisely, in which building?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Sir, that is not what I can know.

MR VISSER: All right, we will then leave it there.  Let us go on to the clinic.  You again received instructions and it turned out that at midnight, according to you, Mamome arrived with a combi and you were surprised to see that there were other people in the combi.  Can you remember that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: And you mentioned the names of Morakile, Mtyala, Miningwa that were in the company of Mr Mamome in the combi.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Now, you also told us then that you drove on the road that leads to Brandfort for about 20 to 25 kilometres, when you came across a car.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so.

MR VISSER: And that car, to your knowledge, belonged to Warrant Officer Ramoseu.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: For the sake of the record, Mr Chairman, I have been requested to do this, is to spell the names that, I have forgotten about that, to spell the names.  The previous names which I mentioned Morakile, I think, is spelt M O R A K I L E, Mtyala is spelt M, for Mike, T Y A L A, Miningwa is M I N I N G W A and Warrant Officer Ramosoeu is spelt R A M O S O E U.
	What I want to know from you, Mr Motsamai, is either in the combi, with yourself, or in the car with Mr Ramosoeu, was Mr Nelson Ngo present?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: You are asking me a question I cannot respond to.  Whether he was with Ramosoeu I do not know.  However, he was a person used.  He was always here in Bloemfontein, for most of the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you repeat that answer?  He was what for most of the time?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He was timeously in Bloemfontein, at the office.  I cannot tell whether he was with Ramosoeu in that car.

MR VISSER: Why is it that you cannot tell us whether he was with Mr Ramosoeu in the car, Mr Motsamai?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: We drove past that car and I could not tell whether it was Mr Ramosoeu in that car, but I knew that it, that was his car.

MR VISSER: But did you not stop with the combi at that car?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Not at all.

MR VISSER: Well, then, please would you explain, because I thought I heard you say yesterday that you asked Mr Mamome what Ramosoeu was doing there?  Did you say so?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is what I said.

MR VISSER: And that question could only have been asked on the basis that Ramosoeu was there.
MR MEMANI OBJECTS

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, if I see your motorcar parked somewhere, will I not draw the assumption it is, you are there?