Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-08

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: These are not the military camps as such, these are houses.  For instance, the community of Orlando East was very sympathetic and there were houses that we used.
	In some of these houses you'd find that, well some of us stayed at our homes but at night we would be 40 but when we disperse at night about 15 members would be left behind.  I can count at least five houses in Orlando East where such camps were conducted. During the day we would be in large numbers.  
	Some of us who resided in Orlando East would be together during the day and at night we would leave for our homes.  If you felt very secure to sleep at your house you were entitled to do that.

MR TLOUBATLA: And what was the specific reason for camping as you were camping, what was the main reason for people to have to come together to come and protect themselves?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: The main reason to conduct these camps was to defend ourselves as such from the UDF.  Many people were attacked at night, many houses in Dlamini were attacked at night.  Houses in Zola were attacked at night.  Comrades were arrested if they were found in smaller groups, for instance one or two but if you are in a large group you are in a position to defend yourself.
	The other thing that was done in the camps was the political education as I've already eluded earlier on, to carry forward the aspirations of the organisation.  That is basically that, yes to take forward the programmes of the organisation and to protect ourselves from the UDF.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by saying: "Comrades in small groups would be arrested"?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Not to be arrested as such.  If we are two and we want to go to Diepkloof and one recognises you, that you are a member of AZAPO, you would land in danger.  They would capture you and anything could have happened at the time, they might have killed you, interrogate you, comrades from the UDF and its alliances, SOYKO and SOSCO.

MR TLOUBATLA: You also mentioned that the homes were burnt down and so on, do you know of any specific homes or parents that were either subjected to this violence or homes that were burnt down?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes.  I said already that Thebogong Komezulu's house was burnt and Lerato's home was also burnt.   Ghots Lingani's home was very lucky because information leaked before they could come and burn the house, then we organised ourselves and we camped at that house.
	To verify whether it was truth, the whole issue of attack was true, we went to Moletsane High and we indeed found them.  They were quite a few of them.  We went back to the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just a minute.  I think you should allow your counsel to lead you.  The question which he asked you was: "Give examples of houses which were burnt" and to which you should have said: "Komezulu's house, Lerato's house, Lingani's house" and then wait for him to guide you.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you take charge of your client and direct him according.

MR TLOUBATLA: I thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Because he is just flowing and we have difficulties in following him.

MR TLOUBATLA: You also mentioned - on page 5 Mr Chairman, of the bundle.  I think it's paragraph 3 there"
"Meetings were held in vain regarding the violence"
Do you know of any meetings?  Did you attend any meetings and who were the people who were attending those meetings?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes, there were meetings that I attended.  I explained in my application that I remember very well there were many people, Mr Aubrey Mkwena who resided in Orlando East was member of the UDF and there were several meetings with him.  I remember Mrs Sesulu, she worked at Doctor Asvat's surgery.  There were meetings there as well.
	People such as Seti Mzibuko and Amanda Kwadi were discussing this whole issue.  The person who spoke on behalf of the Dlamini people was Kenneth Fitla.  Now there were meetings held on different times, discussing this issue.  I remember our leadership talking to Mr Tutu when this spread from Eastern Cape, so that this can come to an end but it didn't.

MR TLOUBATLA: On page 6, paragraph 3, you are saying that - page number 6 of the bundle you are saying that
"It was the policy of our organisation to avoid retaliation at all costs, however my attitude changed completely after the death of comrade Sipho Komezulu in Zola"
Can you briefly just tell us about the death of Komezulu, what happened?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to interrupt you and go back to paragraph 3.  What was the purpose of these meetings?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: It was to get rid of the violence that existed.  It appeared that there was no relationship between UDF and ourselves with regards to politics.  They must have been aware at that time that the local struggle can be fought with whites included and it was not our vision, we saw whites as part of the problem but you must understand then that this violence had left Port Elizabeth and it was now spreading to our area.  Now the main issue here was the difference in ideology. ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: The meeting was between which group and which group?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Between UDF and AZAPO.

CHAIRPERSON: Now these people that you mention here, from which grouping were they?  You've just spoken about Archbishop Tutu for a while.

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Ja.  These were members of the UDF.  Mr Aubrey Mkwena, Mrs Sesulu, Amanda Gwadi, Seti Mazibuko.  SOSCO was a subsidiary of UDF, SOSCO was following the characteristic ideology.

CHAIRPERSON: So these people were from UDF and/or its affiliates or its associates?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the purpose of this meeting then to try and bring peace between your organisation and its affiliates or associates on the one hand and the UDF and its associates or affiliates on the other hand?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did it then succeed in doing that?  Did the meeting then succeed in doing bringing about peace?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: No, it did not because these meetings took place at the leadership level.  I do not believe that the grassroots level of these two organisations understood exactly what was taking place up there but what I believe was discussed up there was not put into practice down here.

CHAIRPERSON: So the conflict continues, the meetings notwithstanding?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Sorry, just before you proceed, may I just ask, at these meetings, you said you were present, who were the leadership of AZAPO present at these meetings?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: Let me start at the meeting held at DOCC in Orlando East.  I remember well Mr Mabaso was there, comrade Jefferson Lingani was there, comrade Sisi Baloi, I think she was the administrative secretary of the organisation, she was present.  	There was a meeting held at Doctor Asvat's surgery in Dlamini.  The late Tiny Motlago was present at that meeting, comrade Sam Siyema was present.  I do not remember the others very well because this took place many years ago but I have given you a few names of those who were present at these meetings.

MR MALAN: And you were present at both meetings?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: I was present at these that I've mentioned but not as part of the leadership.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR TLOUBATLA: You have mentioned specifically two meetings, are these the only meetings that were held with the leadership of both organisations or were there more meetings?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: There were more meetings held at the national leadership level but they were not futile.

CHAIRPERSON: They were futile?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: They were not of importance.