Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: Can you tell us in your own words what role do you think Mrs Madikizela-Mandela had in this whole affair?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I think it was a cover-up, sir.

MR VALLY: What was she covering up?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Those persons or person who did the killing.

MR VALLY: And why would she want to do that?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Because there was a feud between Mshoshove and Mrs Mandela.

MR VALLY: When you say Mshoshove you are referring to Mr Sefako?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: That's it, sir.

MR VALLY: What was the basis of this feud?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: The feud, I was told by Mr Mshoshove that the feud started over when  Mrs Mandela wanted to take over the command and also the thing that made the feud to be over it was fuelled by a pistol which was found at Mrs Madikizela's house, a Scorpion.

MR VALLY: There's two issues you are raising here as the basis for the feud.  The one is the issue of a Scorpion pistol which you say was found in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house.  Why would the Scorpion pistol found in Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house cause a feud between Mr Sefako and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Okay.  Mshoshove, my commander, was in love with that daughter of Mrs Mandela, and Mrs Mandela was not happy about the issue, so then that Scorpion belonged to Mshoshove.

MR VALLY: And what's the significance of the Scorpion being left in the house?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Because Mshoshove had spent the night there.

MR VALLY: Are you saying that the fact that the Scorpion was in the house was proof that he had spent the night in the house?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: And this is what caused the problem between him and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: It's the one that fuelled the most because there was also a tension, the tension was already there, but the pistol makes it worse.

MR VALLY: Let me understand from you the first aspect where you talk about, she wanted to take over command of his unit Can you explain to us exactly what you mean there?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.  I was told by my commander that the unit which he was given outside the country from Zambia to command inside the country, there was a confusion between Mrs Mandela and Mshoshove.  Mrs Mandela wanted to take over the unit from Mr Mshoshove and Mr Mshoshove did not allow that.  Because what Mrs Mandela - I was told that she was only there to assist him when it comes to money and everything, not to command the unit, to assist only in money.

MR VALLY: Mrs Mathibe says that you were trained by Mr Sefako in the use of firearms and there was some tension between Mr Sefako and Peter over some R600 which had gone missing. Can you tell us about this?  If you want to check on that that's on paragraphs 15 and 16 on pages 6 and 7 of Mrs Mathibe's statement which I have given you.  She says there was tension between Peter and Mr Sefako because of the missing R600, do you know anything about that?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I do, sir.

MR VALLY: Can you tell us about that?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.  Peter was told to go and fetch the money, the money which was supposed to be used on operations, and Peter never turned back.

MR VALLY: So Peter himself would have a motive for shooting Mr Sefako, would that be correct?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I think so, sir.

MR VALLY: Mrs Madikizela-Mandela has told us that she was not an MK commander and she had no more contact with MK guerillas other than finding safe houses and locations for them to store their weapons. On what basis do you say that you had the impression that Mrs Mandela wanted to take over control of this unit?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: The way I was told sir, that it was the question of money because she was the one who was, I don't know how can I express this now, she was in a position of power in money.

MR VALLY: At any stage if you want to speak in the vernacular please feel free to do so.  The point is, and I quote what Mrs Mandela said, the question she was asked on page 72 of the first inquiry
"Would you consider yourself at the time to have been an MK Commander?"
Mrs Madikizela-Mandela answer was -
"I was not an MK Commander".
What's your response to that answer?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Your question please again, sir?

MR VALLY: She was asked a question whether she was an MK commander and she said she was not an MK commander, what's your response to that?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: It's very difficult to answer the question because I don't know when the question was asked and by whom.

MR VALLY: Maybe I should make it clear what I meant there.  Mrs Madikizela-Mandela has appeared before us, in camera, and she has been asked a number of questions about a number of incidents.  One of the questions she was asked by me was, did she consider herself to have been an MK commander and her answer was, "I was not an MK commander".  I'd like your comment on her answer.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: As I have already stated, sir, that she was in a position of power because there were already two highly-trained MK guys were under his command.  I will mention those two, Percy and Peter.

MR VALLY: Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was asked, I'm reading it from page 73 of the first inquiry, and this is asked by me
"From your experience in dealing with MK cadres who came to the country who you provided shelter for, provided hiding places for, if you were to make a request to them would they comply with your request?"
Mrs Madikizela-Mandela first answers -
"What sort of request would they make?"
Mr Semenya then interjects.  I ask the question again.
"Was there any instance in this time when you made a request of any of the MK cadres who came into the country?"
And Mrs Madikizela-Mandela answers -
"I had no authority to make any direct request to MK. They came with their orders from Lusaka and they were disciplined members of MK who took orders from Lusaka".
My question is, did she have any authority over you?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: No, not over me.

MR VALLY: Did she have any authority over any MK unit within the country?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I don't know.

MR VALLY: You say that she had two trained people under her control.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: Was this part of her unit?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Those guys, Peter and Percy were - actually they were members of the Mshoshove Unit but they deserted Mshoshove.

MR VALLY: When you were asked to bring your weapons to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, and if she had no authority over you, why did you do so?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Because I know that I was already exposed there, sir, there was nothing to hide.

MR VALLY: I want to give you certain pages from the Section 29 inquiry, and this is from page 104, the first Section 29 inquiry where certain questions were asked.  I want you to look right at the bottom of page 104.  My question was
"I want to now talk about the death of Susan Maripa.  I need to know, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, if you knew Vincent or Vusile Sefako?"
Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's answer was -
"Who on earth are those people, Mr Chairman, I have never heard of them".
Did Mrs Madikizela-Mandela know Vincent or Vusile Sefako?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Very well, sir.

MR VALLY: I then asked
"Do you know a Susan Maripa?"
Mrs Madikizela-Mandela says -
"I have never heard of that person".
From your statement you have indicated an unknown woman. Did you know Susan Maripa at all?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: Facially.

MR VALLY: Do you know if Mrs Madikizela-Mandela knew Mrs Susan Maripa? Yes, no, I don't know, any answer, that's fine, just answer that one, do you know if Mrs Madikizela-Mandela knew Mrs Susan Maripa?

THAMI HLATSWAYO: It's very difficult for me, sir, because I don't know before or after the incident.

MR VALLY: Before she was killed.

THAMI HLATSWAYO: I doubt.