Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-14

MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I am now calling no.2724/96, that of John Masithulela.
	May I also indicate inasfar as this applicant is concerned just finalising the affidavits in respect of all of them so we will be able to submit some of them.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean you are going to submit some of them if they are all being finalised?  Wouldn't you submit all of them?

MR NDOU: Yes.  They will all be ready.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is this applicant?

MR NDOU: Masithulela, John.  Page 52.

JOHN MASITHULELA: (sworn states)

MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Masithulela I see that in your application that you brought before the Committee is that you indicate that you are here to seek amnesty in respect of offences for which you were convicted during November 1992, it being public violence, murder and arson.  Were you convicted of all these three offences?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes.

MR NDOU: And for that you were in prison for a period of 12 years, is that correct?

JOHN MASITHULELA: That is correct.

MR NDOU: Now we have evidence here, and I want you to explain to the Committee ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Wait before you carry on, public violence in respect of what?

JOHN MASITHULELA: It's in connection with being involved in a group which were making violence at Hamavonga.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja on whose house or on who or what?

JOHN MASITHULELA: It is in the house of Mr Edward Mahvunga and Petrus Mahvunga.

CHAIRPERSON: And murder?  Mr Ndou do you know in respect of what crimes he's making application?

MR NDOU: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Please tell us.

MR NDOU: Now you also indicate that you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No you tell us what you got instructions ...(intervention)

MR NDOU: It is in the murder of her daughter, ...(indistinct) government ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And arson?

MR NDOU: It's also in respect of the burning ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And the public violence?

MR NDOU: I think the public violence was generalised in a sense it pertained to the violence that took as an alternative charge to the charge of arson that took place at Petrus' house.

CHAIRPERSON: Petrus.

MR VAN RENSBURG: With respect Mr Chairman I don't think that is so.  I think the accused was convicted of arson as an alternative count to count 3 which actually happened on the 28th of February at the house of the deceased.  That is how I understand it.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you people are confusing me.

MR NDOU: Are you talking about the arson or the public violence?

ADV DE JAGER: He was accused no.4.  He was sentenced for public violence - four years imprisonment.  That's on page 213.  Counts three and seven taken together to 12 years imprisonment.  Three was the arson and seven was the murder of Edward.  And three was the burning of the house.  So it was public violence, according to the judgment on page 213.

CHAIRPERSON: He was found guilty of public violence in the alternative on count 2, which was the arson charge in respect of the deceased's house on the 28th of February.  He was also convicted of murder of the deceased and arson in respect of the deceased's house that occurred on the 6th.

MR NDOU: Now Mr Masithulela I want you to explain to the Committee as to how it came about that this whole incident took place, slowly and very clearly.

JOHN MASITHULELA: This violence started in 1990.  It was during the time when the Venda government was not ruling properly.  Myself as a youth I found it fit that I participated in overthrowing the power of the past government so that it can be totally abolished.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay we accept that now.  You know you are here before us seeking amnesty in respect of the death and arson on the deceased.  The death of the deceased and arson on his house and also public violence in respect of a gathering outside his brother's house.  Correct?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes it's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what did you do in respect of Petrus' house there?

JOHN MASITHULELA: In connection with Petrus' house I burnt - let me say I started by attempting to burn the house of Mr Petrus Mahvunga and then I went and burnt the house of Petrus Mahvunga and it burnt, that one.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you together with people or?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes I was together with other youth.

CHAIRPERSON: So did the house burn?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Initially the fire burnt and it went down and it wasn't burnt - the first time.  And for the second time we burnt it.

CHAIRPERSON: On the same day?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Now it was not on the same day.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  And you were generally in a group whose actions were regarded as violent at that time, when you tried to burn?

JOHN MASITHULELA: The government of that day took us as if we were doing violence.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not talking about the government, I am asking what you did.

JOHN MASITHULELA: Could you please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: You tried to burn Petrus' house on a particular day.  You failed.  When you did so you were in a group of people whose actions were violent, or intended to be violent.

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes I can agree.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Now then you left his place, Petrus?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes we left that place.

CHAIRPERSON: And that occurred before the deceased died?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Could you repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: You know the deceased, Edward, the attack on Petrus' house occurred before Edward died.

JOHN MASITHULELA: Before the killing of Edward we first burnt the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Of Petrus?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes of Petrus.

CHAIRPERSON: But when you tried to burn Petrus' house it happened before the day Edward died, am I correct?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes he was not yet killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Now let's get on to the attack on Edward's house.  What did you do there?

JOHN MASITHULELA: In Petrus Mahvunga's house I found myself in a group of youths who went there to burn ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Not Petrus, Edward.

JOHN MASITHULELA: Edward, okay, I didn't get you clear then.  In the house of Edward Mahvunga I was in a group of youths who went to Edward Mahvunga to evict him to leave Mahvunga Village.  As it has been already explained that he was given a "trek pass" and he was refusing to leave the village.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you believe that there was a "trek pass" for him?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes I agree but being told it was there, by the people who told me.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you?

JOHN MASITHULELA: I was told by the youth, I was with them in the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Who?

JOHN MASITHULELA: I can't remember the name because in the meeting people were just speaking collectively or at the same time.

CHAIRPERSON: Whose meeting or what kind of meeting was it?

JOHN MASITHULELA: It was the youth meeting in connection with arranging the formation of the youth congress.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Then what happened?

JOHN MASITHULELA: The youth on arriving at Edward Mahvunga's house they tried to talk to him so that he can leave Mahvunga Village.  The negotiations with Edward Mahvunga and the youth was such that they were not agreeing with each other because he was refusing to leave the country because he's having the house and the kids.
	It happened that while they were exchanging different words where he was refusing to go they started a fight of throwing stones.  People were throwing stones to the deceased, at the deceased and in the deceased's house to get that to the kids who were in the yard.  The deceased was also throwing stones and the kids were doing likewise towards us.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr van Rensburg as far as what happened at the house, the stone throwing, the setting alight, the killing, the leaving of the women, are we having any disputes about that or can we accept what in broad happened there - there was a stone throwing and the deceased was killed?