Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

MR PRIOR: What would have happened if you had told Mr Barnard, listen there are too many innocent people that can be killed here, what would have happened?

MR LE ROUX: He would have chosen probably another person.

MR PRIOR: Did you think about it to oppose his order or to just mention to him that too many innocent people will be killed?

MR LE ROUX: I did differ regarding some of the targets.

MR PRIOR: But in the end you yourself reconciled yourself with the fact that innocent people, as well as people who support the AWB, will be killed?

MR LE ROUX: Yes that is correct.

MR PRIOR: This reference to the Church Street bombing, where the ANC accepted that it was one of their actions during the war, as you put it, do you use it to legitimise your bomb attacks.  In other words the ANC could do it so on the same basis our bomb attacks were legitimised?

MR LE ROUX: Yes that is correct.

MR PRIOR: This group of yours at the Koosterfontein Game Farm where you built these bombs, it seems as if you only built explosives and bombs.  Is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: It's two places you are talking about now.  Koosterfontein is where we built the bombs and where the pipe bombs were made more powerful.

MR PRIOR: Was there no other planning, for example a mortar attack or a gun attack.  The only purpose of that meeting was to build bombs, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: I was not at a meeting there.

MR PRIOR: I am talking about the gathering itself.

MR LE ROUX: We all had our own hand weapons.

MR PRIOR: But the way I understand you, it was only for your own protection?

MR LE ROUX: Yes that is correct.

MR PRIOR: In other words you are not going into the war alone and unarmed?

MR LE ROUX: At that stage we expected the Defence Force to come over to our side and we would be provided with weapons.  There was even talk of "Rooikatte", military vehicles that would be handed over to the right wing.

ADV GCABASHE: Just so I don't ask this later, just explain this to me.  You expected at that stage that the Defence Force, Constand Viljoen's grouping, whoever, would assist you?

MR LE ROUX: Yes I thought that.

ADV GCABASHE: Two questions why, and just explain at that stage, are you talking of the night of the 23rd, the day of the 24th.  Just explain that to me in the context of the political objective of the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: It was spread over that period.  It was not specifically on one day that all these decisions were taken, there was a run up to the revolution, those bombs that were planted, and in the process of doing that, the Boere Crisis Action and the Defence Force would then join us and that is what we heard from the AWB's Staff Generals.

ADV GCABASHE: Again this is precisely what bothers me again.  Weren't your actions rather premature in that case because all your support structures hadn't come together yet, you had no real signal as I understand the evidence.

MR LE ROUX: Barnard said that this would be the introduction to the whole process, that is why it had to be a really large powerful bomb in Johannesburg.

ADV GCABASHE: So you are really saying that you relied solely on Barnard's information, his analysis of the situation and his orders to act.  I mean it was everything turned on what Barnard said.  Is this what you are saying?

MR LE ROUX: No the total revolution, but the operations that we were involved in.  He gave the orders.

MR PRIOR: Thank you.  There are one or two more points.  The information I've got is that there was police presence in Bree Street on the morning of the 24th.  Did you see any police vehicles?

MR LE ROUX: Yes Mr Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: Indeed the two policemen who walked out of the shop they were injured, they were stationed there or sent there because later that morning the IFP would have marched through Bree Street?

MR LE ROUX: I did not know about that, no Mr Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: Was it pure coincidence that Bree Street was chosen.  You did not want to explode a bomb while the IFP supporters marched through that area and would then be killed or injured?

MR LE ROUX: No not at all.  Our target was not the IFP, as you know, the AWB even assisted the IFP in training and they were one of our allies.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Prior can you just inform us, it sounds as if you are saying that the TV or is it BV would have marched through the streets?

MR PRIOR: IFP, Inkatha Freedom Party.

ADV BOSMAN: Oh the IFP, thank you.

MR PRIOR: Sorry Chairperson, the Inkatha Freedom Party.  And if necessary, I will present the necessary evidence.  The second last point.  You escaped from prison during the hearing?

MR LE ROUX: Yes that is correct.  I was waiting for the court case.

MR PRIOR: And you were then again arrested, is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Correct.

MR PRIOR: And you applied for bail.  Is that correct?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Did you give evidence during that bail application?

MR LE ROUX: No.

MR PRIOR: But your case was presented to the court by means of statements.  Can you remember how many Affidavits you submitted at the bail proceedings?

MR LE ROUX: No.

MR PRIOR: Was it more than one?

MR LE ROUX: It is possible.

MR PRIOR: I would like to refer to Bundle A.  Mr Chairperson the committee can take note of the legislation of Act 2 of 1994.  It appears on page 46 of the bundle and it is about the Constitution of South Africa, the amended piece of legislation.  Mr Le Roux I would like to put it to you that according to this Act or legislation that provision was made for a Volkstaat  in terms of Section 184A.  Mr Chairperson in the Constitution, Section 34 they did make provision for a Volkstaat and here in January it was announced.  Do you deny it?

MR LE ROUX: Yes that is correct.

MR PRIOR: Was it not enough for the AWB?

MR LE ROUX: No Mr Chairperson they believed that the basic concept was that if the ANC takes over, it will not be realised.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Sorry Mr Prior I think the legislation, I haven't got Section 34 but it makes provision for a Volkstaat Council and not for a Volkstaat.  Are we on the same frequency now.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairperson it is 100% correct, it is a Volkstaat Council in order to discuss the concept of a Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I am finished.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Le Roux questions were put to you regarding General Constand Viljoen's involvement with this unrest that took place before the elections.  Mr Chairperson I would like to read an article in the Rapport of 2 May 1997, I would like to submit this article.  I said yesterday that we had a problem with the photocopy machine and I only have half of it, but the first bit is the most important bit.  With your permission may I submit it, I will provide you with the full article at tea time.  I would then like to submit it as Exhibit C.  Do you carry any knowledge of this article that appeared in the Rapport?

MR LE ROUX: Yes I do.

MS VAN DER WALT: And from this report it was said that the armed unrest in 1994 could have left South Africa in pain.  Constand Viljoen had an army of more than 100 000 men ready.  The first paragraph
"Armed unrest that the leaders planned before the election needed only the press of one button and it had the potential to destroy South Africa".
After you saw this article, is it correct that you also provided me with this article?

MR LE ROUX: Yes I provided it to you.  It was exactly how it happened and I saw myself as part of this unrest or whatever it entailed.

MS VAN DER WALT: You were also then present at the meeting of Constand Viljoen in a hall in Pretoria?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was the impression regarding what you heard there and what this newspaper article alleged, was it the same as what was conveyed to you?

MR LE ROUX: Yes that is correct.