Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Sir, I cannot today tell you whether this was mentioned for the first time here in these Minutes or whether it happened before this meeting, whether it had been used before this meeting but this kind of terminology was used quite frequently during this kind of meeting.

MR BRINK: Prior to the 12th of April 19 - 14th of April 1982?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

MR BRINK: Thank you very much.
NO FURTHER QUESTION BY MR BRINK

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR BOOYENS: I just want to clarify one aspect here.  The security branch was divided into several desks, the desk that investigate Mr Mthimkhulu's activities is the desk for Black matters, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Is that also the desk where Captain du Plessis was in charge?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: Captain du Plessis was thus not within your line function, you were with trade unions?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Is that the reason why you've given these answers that you didn't manage the informants?  Is this the reason why you said that there's no direct relationship between you and his activities, that you just had a general kind of interest in him and had contact in that regard?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: Jan du Preez to whom Mr Phosa referred, what do you understand under the branch that was referred to?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: He was with head office in Pretoria, he was stationed there.

MR BOOYENS: So you mean he was part of security branch?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is what I mean.

MR BOOYENS: You and Jan du Preez, were you ever here together in P.E.?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink asked you about your knowledge of the summons dated the 2nd of April, for damages arising from the poisoning and you said you knew about that, did you also know about the public enquiry that was going to be held by the Magistrate on the 5th of May, into the allegations of assault?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I cannot remember anything like that, maybe at that stage but now I cannot remember anything like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Colonel Erasmus confirmed yesterday that he knew of it and amongst the exhibits is a subpoena to appear at it.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, may we respectfully request whether you wouldn't mind repeating, he was still in the process of putting on his earphones and he didn't catch the  full ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well I said Colonel Erasmus yesterday said he knew of this Magisterial enquiry and I also said that one of the papers before us - one of the exhibits in Exhibit B is a subpoena in respect of the same enquiry for the Magistrates Court in Port Elizabeth on the 5th of May.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I do not deny the fact that there was such an investigation,  if you say that I was subpoenaed to be there I cannot deny it but I cannot remember that I was subpoenaed for such a case.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't say that you were subpoenaed but it would have surprised me that if there were going to be a public enquiry, that this was not a matter for discussion when you were discussing what should be done with Mr Mthimkhulu - that here was
more adverse publicity looming up.
	And you have been questioned further by Mr Brink about house-arrest and you have said you feared the outcomes of that so but I suggest to you that house-arrest with suitable arrangements for medical treatment and visits to hospitals of a man who was patently an invalid, would not have stirred up the public outcry that you say you envisaged.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Maybe Sir we differ on this point then.

CHAIRPERSON: And a further matter I would like to raise in this regard is I understood when I asked you about house arrest myself earlier you indicated that it would be impossible to have proper surveillance and you spoke of no-go areas and matter of that nature, do you remember telling me about them?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And yet when Mr Brink questioned you you said it's very possible that he was kept under regular surveillance after he returned home.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes I said it was possible.  I actually cannot give further comments as to how regular that monitoring occurred.

CHAIRPERSON: And another of the affidavits put before us in the Exhibit Book, B, at page 78, the affidavit commences at page 78, at page 86 it is an affidavit by I think a relation, it may be his mother, saying that immediately after his disappearance the police were "regularly visiting our house to check on him", which would indicate that it certainly was not in a no-go area, do you agree with that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes I do not deny that, I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED