Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I am before the Commission to tell the whole truth, that is why I am asking you to allow me the opportunity to reacquaint myself with the full truth.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well I can't do more than ask you the same question three or four times, we will proceed without you having answered that question effectively.
	Now did you tell the Commission that you were not aware of any project involving the elimination of Adv Omar and moreover, that you were not aware of any project at all where assassination was contemplated?  Did you say that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Contemplated on Mr Omar?

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Are you saying contemplated in general, or contemplated with regard to Mr Omar?

GEORGE BIZOS: Well Omar and generally.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Definitely not Mr Omar and regarding Webster, I have already testified before the Commission.

GEORGE BIZOS: Just let me repeat.  "He told the Commission that he were not aware of any project involving the elimination of Omar", did you say that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was that the truth that you were not aware of it?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is the truth.

GEORGE BIZOS: You didn't know anything about it as a result of reports made to you by Ferdi Barnard?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Mr Barnard never told me that he was supposed to kill Mr Omar.

GEORGE BIZOS: He never said that to you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: When did you learn that for the first time?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Throughout 11 years things were spoken of and things were said, I didn't know what the scope of Mr van Zyl's projects was.

GEORGE BIZOS: And did you say that you were not aware of any project at all where an assassination was contemplated?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: When, Mr Bizos, when did I say this?

GEORGE BIZOS: When you gave evidence before the Commission, at pages G2134 to 5.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Before the Harms Commission?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I stated that.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm sorry, it's F and not G, Mr Chairman.
	Now you've already told us you were deliberately untruthful to Judge Harms, first of all because of the Webster killing.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: And what about all this so-called monitoring, what was the purpose of all the monitoring that you did?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I have said before that the purpose of the monitoring is first of all to get additional information with the plan to launch a project.

GEORGE BIZOS: There has been evidence from Mr Verster and others that the CCB was not an intelligence gathering organisation, it was to execute the orders given in relation to the harm to individuals and property.  Do you agree or disagree with that evidence?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I agree to an extent.  In the second part of my answer I will say to you that with the planning of a project means that you cannot launch it if you have limited information, the monitoring could lead to a future project.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now is it not correct that such monitoring that may have been done was in order to determine how to kill or disrupt people?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It is so to an extent, but you have to add "if", "how or if" somebody must be killed or damage be done.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes but you see if you were monitoring someone as to how best to kill him, if somebody decided to kill him, is really helping in the commission of a crime for the purposes of killing him.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, that is why I'm saying it to you now it is the pre-study, the run-up to a potential project.  If, hypothetically, I monitor Bruce White and he turned and he's a firm believer now of the National Party, hypothetically I will not continue with the project.  If I can see that he is what we think he is and I get a profile and I make a presentation or a submission and on the basis of my idea of this person a project will follow.

GEORGE BIZOS: A short while ago I asked you whether you were aware of any plans to kill Adv Omar and I asked you whether Mr Ferdi Barnard had ever told you about it, do you remember what your answer was?  That: "It's 11 years ago, I don't remember when someone may or may not have.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: When you were giving evidence before the Harms Commission did you know that attempts had to been made to kill Adv Omar?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I was personally involved with it, but they could possibly have said at that stage that there was a project for the elimination of Mr Omar.

GEORGE BIZOS: Leave out the word "moontlik", I told you that it doesn't cut any ice here, because that doesn't mean anything.  When something is "moontlik" it's not evidence.  You cannot avoid my questions by that manner.  When you were giving evidence before the Harms Commission, were you aware that there were steps that had been taken to kill Omar, or not?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Will "miskien" suit you better?  "Miskien", that suit you better than "moontlik"?

GEORGE BIZOS: No Sir, answer the question.  Did you know at the time that you gave evidence at the Harms Commission that plans had been set afoot in order to kill Omar, yes or no?  "Maybe" is not an answer in this situation, because you either had knowledge or you did not have knowledge, it's not something that is outside your own experience.  Please answer the question.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I heard that Mr van Zyl had a project going with specific reference to Adv Omar.  What the project entailed I was not quite sure about.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you asked at the Harms Commission whether you knew of any plan to kill Adv Omar?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I cannot recall.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well if I assure you that at page 2134 you were asked by Mr Luitingh(?)
"Up until the beginning of the end of last year you were brought under the impression that there was also a project with regard to the elimination of Omar"
and the answer was:
"No."
Do you recall that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: If it is stated here, yes.  You will also see at the top of the page
"You were told about the Omar project."
		"The last time I heard that there was a project.  What the nature of the project was I cannot say."

GEORGE BIZOS: Very well, take that as well because it doesn't make any difference for the ... You did say those things, the record is correct about this?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Would you please contrast that with page 6 of bundle A, the third paragraph.  Please read it out.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 6, bundle A - may page 6 ...

GEORGE BIZOS: Bundle B ...(indistinct - no microphone)

CHAIRPERSON: Bundle B, page 6, third paragraph.

GEORGE BIZOS: Just read it out aloud please.
MR BOTHA
"Nick then gave Van Zyl a bottle with pills.  This pill was intended for Omar, an attorney in Cape Town.  Peaches, an informer of Van Zyl had to smuggle this to Omar in order to give him a heart attack.  I did not know much about this.  At a later stage I heard from Ferdi that he was approached by Van Zyl in order to get information on Omar."

CHAIRPERSON: I think just on the interpretation, "to kill him, to assassinate him".

INTERPRETER: The Interpreter apologises.

MR LAX: Well just read further on, carry on reading.
MR BOTHA
"Van Zyl then continued with his leave"

MR LAX: Oh sorry, that's ...

GEORGE BIZOS: Now do you agree that that evidence in your, or that statement is in direct conflict with what you told the Commission?

CHAIRPERSON: When you're talking of Commission, you're talking of Harms?

GEORGE BIZOS: Harms.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think if you could just mention the name Harms, because sometimes we'll get confused with what's said here and there.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you agree that page 6 of bundle B, paragraph 3 is in direct conflict to what is contained at page 2134 of the Harms Commission, yes or no?