Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-12

MR LEBEA: I received a crash course for three days and the last time we were all together.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is the day of the delivery of the weaponry?

MR LEBEA: The weapons were present at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: You introduced them to Themba Ncapai as the Commander?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And Themba was happy that they should belong to your unit to go for this target that had been identified on the 15th of January?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was it important because he has trained people, he has given weaponry to these people, that you had to deliver the repossessed item personally, not by other people he has met and even trained and given his approval that they should belong to your unit?  Why was that so important that you had specifically to deliver the repossessed items to Themba Ncapai?

MR LEBEA: He operated underground.

CHAIRPERSON: Same as you, you were also operating underground, that's what you told us just at the beginning of your testimony that you operated underground.

MR LEBEA: That is so, but because I had a lot of contact with Themba, it was supposed to be me who gets into contact with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Were those the instructions he gave, that after repossession you personally should bring the repossessed items to him?

MR LEBEA: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Now let's just get to this last item which I still seek clarity from you.  You have reconnoitred the farm at Mazelspoort and according to what my brother showed you in the papers, that you had identified it as an operation that had to be done by 5 people, you recall saying so and you were referred to page 5 of the bundle?

MR LEBEA: I recall.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you did not have the 5th person, is that correct?

MR LEBEA: That is correct.  When we committed this act, we did not have the fifth person.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said according to your reconnaissance, the situation did not demand when you were there now on the 10th of February 1991 that the AK 47 should be used, it was placed in a car, you recall that?

MR LEBEA: Yes, I recall that.

CHAIRPERSON: Because you had done some reconnaissance, why take the AK47 and put it in the car because the situation did not demand an AK47?

MR LEBEA: You would not think that the situation would stay the same for ever.  Yes we did the reconnaissance, that is true, but we would not just go bare-handed and not knowing what is it that we'd get.  We knew these people were always armed.  At the time of the commitment of the act, we saw that it would not be necessary to use the AK and that decision was taken whilst we were already inside the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but still, you don't know what the situation is like.  You get there, before you even go into the house, you place the AK47 in the car and we know these people are armed.  I can't follow really, assist me.  I'm not trying to be funny, I can't follow.  I have this deadly weapon with a 9mm, a panga and before I realise what is happening in the house, I put the AK47 in the car.  Is it rational to do that if you did not know the situation entirely out of your reconnaissance, is that rational?

MR LEBEA: I'm saying, when we were at the area we discovered that we should leave the AK47 in the car and rather use the other weapons that we had.

CHAIRPERSON: And that flows from your reconnaissance.  If you leave the AK 47 in the car, the panga and the 9mm would suffice, wouldn't it, because that's what happened, at least according to your testimony.

MR LEBEA: Yes.  To do the work at that time, we discovered that that was enough but from the planning, we planned that the AK would be necessary.  In case the police are summoned by people close to that area, so that we could be in a position to protect ourselves, but at the time of the commitment of the act, we saw that it was not necessary to use it at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: You go there, your reconnaissance, I take it, was looking at the farm and the people who occupied the farm and it transpired that it was these elderly people who were living there.  Would I be correct in this instance?

MR LEBEA: We knew it was them residing there.

CHAIRPERSON: And the planning was that you go at the dead of the night, wouldn't that be so?

MR LEBEA: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: You arrive, you take the AK47, before you do anything, you put it in the car, you break down the door, you enter the house.  That is your evidence isn't it?

MR LEBEA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You even tackle Mr van Tonder with a panga when he had a shotgun and your AK47 is outside?

MR LEBEA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So the situation allowed for that according to your reconnaissance?

MR LEBEA: The issue is, you do not be in a position to know before hand what was going to transpire.  Anything could have happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Now - I'm sorry, continue, I'm sorry.

MR LEBEA: Leaving the AK47 in the vehicle was after discovering that we would not use it for repossession, we were going to use it for protection purposes, in case the police would be summoned to the area or maybe problems, obstacles hindering us to carry our mission forward.

CHAIRPERSON: Now this target was attacked less than a month when it was identified, would I be correct?  You knew in all fairness to you about the target on the 15th of January 1991 and the target was attacked on the 10th of February 1991, which is less than a month, or lets say 5 days less than a month.  Would you agree with my arithmetic there?

MR LEBEA: I would not dispute that.

CHAIRPERSON: Now on the 15th of January when you knew of the target, thereafter you did some reconnaissance yourself, isn't it so?

MR LEBEA: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long did you reconnoitre the place?

MR LEBEA: I took days.

CHAIRPERSON: Give us an approximation please.

MR LEBEA: I took some days, even if I did not go on a daily basis, but I think I took time up to a point where we made a decision that on the 10th we were going to attack.

CHAIRPERSON: What time of the day were you doing your reconnaissance?

MR LEBEA: I was doing them during the day and in the afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were absolutely satisfied in your mind that the two people live or occupy that farm?

MR LEBEA: I would say yes, I was satisfied.

CHAIRPERSON: Now can you give us an approximation?  We know you said you did not go on a daily basis.  Approximately how many times did you go?

MR LEBEA: I'm not quite sure, Chairperson, how many days because I was not counting.

CHAIRPERSON: That's why I said an approximation.  Mr Lebea let me be honest here.  You joined the PAC in 1988, that you remember?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You joined APLA late in 1989, that you remember?

MR LEBEA: Correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You formed your unit in 1990, that you remember?

MR LEBEA: Correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: On the 15th of January a target was identified to you, that you remember?

MR LEBEA: Correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: A week thereafter, which is approximately the 22nd of January, weaponry is delivered, that you remember, but you can't even approximate really that you reconnoitred, you don't know how many times, when you can remember these specific dates, don't you find it strange really?  Because I'm not asking too much from you, I say now approximation.

MR LEBEA: I would say I went there 13 occasions, but I remember on the last day I went there for reconnaissance, it was on the 8th, that was my last occasion, it was on the 8th.

CHAIRPERSON: Of February?

MR LEBEA: I believe so Chairperson.