Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga.  Panel?

MR SIBANYONI: Just to get the area very clear, when you refer to Mabhogo at Kameelrivier,  are you not referring to the King Maisha II at Weltevrede?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Would you please repeat the question?

MR SIBANYONI: You are saying that Mabhogo is the senior chief and Mashiane is the junior chief.  I just want to get clarity that by referring to Mabhogo, are you not referring to the Ndebele King who is Maisha II, where you got letters initially to attend the meeting?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: I am referring to Mabhogo, the one who was ruling kwaNdebele, in other words the King.

MR SIBANYONI: In other words the King, not the chief, am I correct?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: Which school are you referring to where the meeting was held?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: It is a school near Pieterskraal.

MR SIBANYONI: You cannot remember the name?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Egukhanyeni School.

MR SIBANYONI: And then at the stage when you purchased petrol at Waterval, was there already a decision taken that your grandmother would be necklaced?

INTERPRETER: I have a problem with my machine.

CHAIRPERSON: Please help her.  All right, carry on.

MR SIBANYONI: How did  you know that eventually your grandmother would be, or how did you know that eventually the decision would be taken that your grandmother should be burnt?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Her actions as I have already explained, that her actions gave me the impression that she had more knowledge and she also helped by what she had said, because eventually she did say that she did that and she wasn't alone in doing so.

MR SIBANYONI: Who took the decision that she should be necklaced?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: If I do remember, I think I left before that decision was taken.  I took the van, myself and Phillip and the people, some of the people who were left in the mountain are here, they will explain who had taken the decision that she must be burnt at that time when she was burnt.

MR SIBANYONI: In your evidence-in-chief I heard you referring to Skosh Nkabinde as the Chairperson.  The question is the Chairperson of which structure?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Youth League, ANC Youth League Chairperson, he was the one who was our leader at the time, we were under him in my area or the area where we were residing.

MR SIBANYONI: Was he always present when you were looking for your grandmother until your grandmother was taken to the mountain?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes, he was present when we went to fetch my grandmother.

MR SIBANYONI: You told us that this incident happened on the 2nd of January 1991, but our bundle refers to the 1st of January 1991.  Are you certain about the date on which it occurred?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: It may happen that I am making a mistake because of the time which had elapsed, but it was between the 1st and the 2nd of January.  It has been a long time, I cannot be certain about that.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Chair.  Do you know what has caused the death of your parents?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: I do not have that knowledge, I do not have the knowledge what was the cause.  What I had discovered was that my grandmother did say that she had used muti, but also she wasn't alone in doing so.  There were other people involved as well.  The only knowledge now that I have is that my grandmother did say that she gave them muti, but she wasn't doing this alone.  She also mentioned other names.

ADV SANDI: Did your two parents die at about the same time?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: There was a gap of about a month to three months.

ADV SANDI: Just explain to me what exactly are we talking about here, are we talking about people who had fallen sick and subsequently died?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: My father was sick, my mother was not sick.  My father got sick, my father was sick and my mother was not sick, but my mother died first and then my father died after my mother's death.

ADV SANDI: Before Emma came to you to say that she had been made aware by someone that you were accusing her  of having bewitched your two parents.  Did you personally have any suspicion that there was witchcraft involved in the death of your parents?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: No, I wasn't suspecting anything.

ADV SANDI: Did you before Emma came to you, did you personally ever suspect her of being a witch?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: No.  No, I never suspected Emma.

ADV SANDI: Did you at any stage thereafter believe that she was a witch?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Well I believed that she was a witch, it was the word she had uttered on the day when she was burnt.  She did say that she had done so, but she wasn't doing it alone.  She was together with others, that is when I believed that she was a witch.

ADV SANDI: When you were travelling with the two vehicles to Vaaldam, this place where you had to go and fetch Emma, did you believe that she was a witch at that stage?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

ADV SANDI: You went to fetch Emma at some place, I think you said that was Vaalfontein, where she was apparently hiding, running away from you. do you remember saying that?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes, I do remember.

ADV SANDI: My question is whilst you were travelling on the way to this place to fetch her, did you personally believe you were on the way to fetch a person who was a witch?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: As I had already explained that the fact that she had fled, gave me the impression that she was guilty.  I was certain that if one didn't know anything, then one need not run away.   I will put an example, if I know that I had stolen something, soon as I see Police, I will run away, because I don't want to be arrested, but if I had done nothing wrong, even if I see Police, I will just sit and relax, I won't be scared.

ADV SANDI: My understanding of your evidence is that at that stage you were not accusing her of being a witch, she had come to say to you that she had been told by someone that you say she is a witch, which thing you denied?  You wanted to know this person, isn't that correct?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: I don't quite follow your question, you are asking a question about on my way to Vaalbank or where?

ADV SANDI: Is it not the position here that you never accused Emma of being a witch, that she behaved in a manner which made you suspicious that she must have been a witch, you never made such an allegation against her, did you?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes, as I have already mentioned that I never suspected her, but her behaviour or her actions gave me another impression that she knew more.

ADV SANDI: Now, let's talk about the meeting there at the school.  Who had suggested that such a meeting should be called?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: If I do remember, I had explained that Scwadi and Skosh were the two people that were responsible in organising the meetings.  These were the people who used to advertise in order to call people for a meeting.

ADV SANDI: Did they tell you why a crowd of people had to be involved in this matter, at that stage?  What was the purpose of this meeting, did they tell you?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Would you please repeat that for me?

ADV SANDI: Did they tell you why the meeting had to be called at the school?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes, they did tell us why they called a meeting.

ADV SANDI: What did they tell you?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: We held two meetings in that school, which meeting are you referring to?  You are talking about the first meeting or the second meeting?

ADV SANDI: I am sure you know very well that I am asking you about the time when the meeting was held for the first time at the school?  That is what I am asking you about?  What was the purpose of that meeting?