Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: There are some, and I will be very quick on this, there are some statements here which are puzzling and I need clarity as to where they come from.  I refer to paragraph 12, page 4 where you are talking about Mr Cebekhulu being happy to be given a place to stay by Mrs Winnie Mandela, midway through the paragraph
"Despite the news of necklacing by her followers...."
and you describe what necklacing means,
"...he did not believe her to be involved in violence".
Was this Mr Cebekhulu's statement?

EMMA NICHOLSON: Yes.  May I add to that answer?

MR VALLY: Certainly, certainly.

EMMA NICHOLSON: I asked him if the news of necklacing, which was a word used in English language-speaking newspapers had been reported in Mpalanga, and he replied yes, but we didn't believe it, we thought it was white man's make-up, that the wife of the President could not be making those sorts of things happen.

MR VALLY: But the statement that "followers of Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela were necklacing people", I am talking about paragraph 4 specifically, was that your statement or was that his statement - "despite the news of necklacing by her followers"?

EMMA NICHOLSON: This is him using me as a scribe.

MR VALLY: So he saw the people carrying out necklacing as being followers of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

EMMA NICHOLSON: I beg your pardon?

MR VALLY: Mr Cebekhulu saw the persons who were responsible for necklacing as being followers of Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela, you are talking about it in a very general sense?

EMMA NICHOLSON: Mr Cebekhulu told me to say that he did not believe Mrs Mandela - before he had arrived in her home and witnessed violence he did not believe that the wife of the President was involved in violence, despite newspaper reports of violent activities associated with her political activities.

MR VALLY: He had access to those newspaper reports regarding her political activities?

EMMA NICHOLSON: I cannot tell you, I can only repeat what I have said that - I can only repeat what I have said, I cannot tell you whether or not he had access to the newspapers or television or the radio, I am unaware of that.

UNKNOWN: Can I just ask where are you going with this and how much longer are you going to be?  You said you are going to be very brief.  I can't allow you more than one more minute.

MR VALLY: I'll get in three questions in one minute.  Page 7 paragraphs 22 and 23.
"Important people used to come to see her to pay tribute to Nelson's imprisonment and the freedom struggle, such as Jesse Jackson from the USA.  They would stand in the street outside asking to be let in.  She would instruct the team to say she was away.  She did not want to face deep questioning on her actions".
Cebekhulu or yourself?

EMMA NICHOLSON: Mr Cebekhulu.

MR VALLY: Paragraph 23
"She had a big house, quite unlike the wives of other senior prisoners who lived humbly like normal people.  Why did she need it.  She seemed to want to make her household stronger all the time".
Mrs Cebekhulu again?

EMMA NICHOLSON: Yes.

MR VALLY: Finally, there is a question of the book.

EMMA NICHOLSON: Yes.

MR VALLY: The question being asked is why do you have copyright to the book and is there any financial interest you have in this whole matter?

EMMA NICHOLSON: I have no financial interest of any sort in this whole matter, and I am willing to show my bank statements to that effect and produce any other evidence to corroborate that.  I have copyright of the book because in my work for refugees I know that refugees' principal problem is that they have no property of any sort, no clothes, no home, no food unless they are given it and no water, no (...indistinct), nothing, but they do have one thing, they have their story.  In my work in the House of Commons I put in intellectual property legislation.  I believe strongly that journalists and authors, writers and producers should not take the story out of a refugee's head, that copyright should remain with the refugee.  At the time this book was created and published Mr Cebekhulu had no status anywhere, it was impossible to assign the copyright to him.  I therefore arranged for it to be assigned to myself and intend to hand it on to him now that he has residency, which happened last week, in the United Kingdom.

MR VALLY: Thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  Mr Semenya you have been very patient, your turn has come at last.  Over to you.

MR SEMENYA: Deputy Chairperson maybe before I start I would for the record state, in my personal and humble judgement it would not be possible to finish cross-examination of such a critical witness in the limited time.  However, I will proceed with the cross-examination and if I could be given an indication what timeframe I have I will try and concentrate on critical aspects.

UNKNOWN: Mr Semenya I think your request is entirely reasonable.  This is a very important witness and as far as we are concerned on the panel here, we are prepared to go through until seven o'clock tonight if that becomes necessary.  I hope you won't interpret that as licence.  But I do want you to feel under no restriction in placing your questions.

MR RICHARD: Mr Chairman I must also speak on behalf of Mr Richardson.  His name has been used on many occasions during the course of this witness' evidence and if this witness is to be believed he is a person who is incorrectly convicted of the charge of murder of Stompie Seipei, in the circumstances it is imperative that I get an opportunity to cross-examine.  I would presume that Mr Semenya will allow me an opportunity as well.

UNKNOWN: You will certainly have that opportunity.

MR SEMENYA: Just for the record Chairperson I was merely saying that I will attempt to stop before seven.  It cannot be and should not be construed to be a complete exercise of the rights of my client to test the correctness of the version by this witness.

UNKNOWN: That is noted, thank you, for the record.

MR SEMENYA: Mr Cebekhulu did I understand you to say when you left you were taken by Richardson to Mrs Mandela at Shell House?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I said John Morgan took me to the Shell House, not Richardson.

MR SEMENYA: Can I tell you this Mr Cebekhulu, that when you left this country Shell House was not there.  The African National Congress offices were in Sauer Street.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Could you repeat your question.

MR SEMENYA: I say it is at Shell House you tell us that Mrs Mandela was telling you you must go through to Swaziland, right?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: That is correct.

MR SEMENYA: And it is where Mrs Mandela threatens you that this is one of the options you must get, we are at Shell House now?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: He was an officer for the ANC, I think it was Shell House.

MR SEMENYA: Now I am trying to say to you, by the time you left this country the offices of the African National Congress were in Sauer Street, they were never in Shell House.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Probably I didn't know the name of the building, that is the name of the streets I didn't know, now you have told me now where when he take me.

UNKNOWN: Did you hear the translation?

MR SEMENYA: No there was no translation and ...(intervention)

INTERPRETATION: The problem is the witness speaks in English so we take it that the translation goes through.  I don't know whether I should repeat him when he speaks in English I should repeat the English version, should I?

UNKNOWN: I think so because the witness' voice is very low and it's not always easy and there is a lot of noise.  I know it's a lot of work but I would be very grateful if you could do that.

INTERPRETER: I will certainly do that, thank you.

MR SEMENYA: I did not hear your answer Sir.