Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members, I wish to draw this Committee's attention to the evidence of Elsie Mokoena.  Elsie Mokoena in her testimony, corroborates what the applicants had said.  She actually confirms that she was at some stage summoned for questioning at the garage, although she went on to mention the owner, Mr Hlombani, the person who was in charge, Mr Hlombani.  She did confirm that Mr Stanley Gqiba was also present.
	She does also confirm that she was rumoured, or that she knew that there were rumours that she was an IFP spy or informer.  Therefore, to some extent she corroborates the version of the applicant as far as that is concerned, and Mr Mhlongo himself told this Committee that he managed to find out more about the activities of Elsie Ndumo, Elsie Mokoena and Hapile Ndumo, and that made him to become more cruel, that is in his own words, he said "...that changed me and made me to become more cruel."  And because there had been a general command that had been issued, about or concerning the Imidwembe, or Elsie Ndumo, Elsie Mokoena, Hapile Ndumo and other Imidwembes, he confirms that he did in fact issue a command, an order, that whoever saw them, wherever they were to be seen, and whenever they were to be seen, they were to be eliminated.  
	And the applicant, Mr John Radebe, boldly admits that he is the one who carried out the execution, who executed the Hapile Ndumo and he's also the one who shot Elsie Mokoena, fortunately she survived.  And as far as the first applicant is concerned, Mr Abraham Fani Mkhwanazi, he was with John Radebe at the time when these incidents took place, and as lawyers we know that he was merely convicted because of the doctrine of common purpose.  But he did not actively ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We are aware that he wasn't convicted on the basis of common purpose.  Surely you must know that the evidence of Mr Radebe was that he fired at Ms Ndumo.

MS MOLOISANE: I am indebted to you Madam Chair and Committee Members.  As far as the Court record is concerned, he was convicted on direct evidence that was adduced in Court, but my submission is that as far as this amnesty application is concerned he is merely drawn into the picture simply because, and that's my submission, simply because he actively associated himself with Mr Radebe, although that was not the evidence in Court.  I'm merely focusing on the evidence as it is before this Committee.  He did not carry out the shooting although he was aware of an order.  Mr Radebe admits that he executed the order, and that Mr Mabusa further confirmed that he is the one who had issued that order that they be eliminated.

CHAIRPERSON: Does it really matter Ms Moloisane?  We shouldn't waste time on this issue.  Does it really matter who ultimately fired a shot?  I'm sure if his gun had had the necessary ammunition he would have fired the shot.  After Mhlongo had issued the order, he didn't leave the unit because he did not want to execute the order, so let's move on.  You don't need to waste time on that one.
	The only problem which I have, which I might mention, is that when you mention the evidence of Ms Mokoena you will also have had to have regard to the evidence of Mr Gqiba, that the activities of these women were not public knowledge.  That's the evidence that was given by Mr Gqiba who was called to support the applicants' applications, and the applicants' applicant was founded on the fact that it was common knowledge that these persons were committing certain activities which were considered unacceptable, which therefore rendered them to be enemies of the community.

MR LAX: I might add that Mr Khumalo corroborates that by saying there were people who were shocked at the decision, and he had to explain what had happened.  He had to explain to the community.  Remember that.  So just add that to the issue.

ADV BOSMAN: I also would like to mention that the fact that Ms Elsie Mokoena testified that they had not been found guilty, they had not been given lashes, is perhaps a material matter where it relates to the issue of full disclosure, and Mr Mhlongo, if I remember correctly, did not testify that he was aware of the fact that they had been given lashes.

MS MOLOISANE: As far as Mr Mhlongo was concerned he only received information concerning that incident.  He did not have any first hand knowledge.  He did not have any first hand knowledge thereof.  ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair as far as the issue of full disclosure is concerned, my submission is that Mr Mhlongo, I mean, did not have actual knowledge as to the incident at the garage when the girls were being questioned, therefore I cannot take this matter further in the sense that he did in fact state that he only received information about that incident.
	The only person who had information, first hand knowledge, about that incident, was Stanley Gqiba, who had been present during the questioning, and although the two girls had been acquitted at that stage, Mr Mhlongo went on to tell this Committee that he did at some stage throw a hand grenade in to a white car in which Hapile Ndumo and some other girls were travelling, and that the fact that he also saw them, I mean, being involved with, in the harassment of the members of the community, angered him, and that prompted him to issue an order that they should be killed.  
	My submission is therefore that the killing of Hapile Ndumo and the attempted killing of Elsie Mokoena occurred because of the circumstances that prevailed in the, in Sebokeng at that time.  There was political violence, there had been killings, and anybody who had been seen in the company of members or of member of the IFP were perceived to be selling the community out to the IFP and therefore endangering the lives of the members of the community, and that was also aggravated by the Boipatong massacre which had taken place about two months prior to the events of the 16th of August 1993.  
	I therefore submit that  the crimes were committed with a political motive and that there were orders that had been issued that the two girls be executed, and that there has been full disclosure.

MR LAX: Sorry Ms Moloisane, wasn't Boipatong 1992, 17th of June 1992?  Was it '93, I'm just confused now.

MS MOLOISANE: 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: June?

MR LAX: Yes, it was the 17th of June 1992.

MS MOLOISANE: I'm indebted to you Committee Members, but the experience, I might not be correct as to the year, but the experience that they had that emanated from the Boipatong massacre, prompted the unit commander Mr Mabusa Mhlongo to issue the instructions or the orders that the two girls be killed or be murdered.

MR LAX: You must be very mistaken.  Mhlongo didn't mention Boipatong.  He knew nothing about the confessions, and he conceded that after I had questioned him.  So that couldn't have played any part in his mind.

CHAIRPERSON: What actually prompted him to issue the order, was Mhlongo seeing the two IFP members in the company of three girls, one of whom was identified to be Hapile.

MR LAX: And then later, when he issued the second order, the incident in town, where that group of people including Elsie this time, were harassing people and stealing their groceries and so on.

MS MOLOISANE: I'm indebted to you Committee Members.  I have also highlighted those facts.  The fact that they were, Hapile was seen travelling in that white car and that a hand grenade was thrown by Mabusa into that car, and the fact that the two girls were seen in the company of alleged IFP members in town.