Human Rights Violation Hearings — Mmabatho — 1996-07-08

ANDRIES KGOBADI: I only knew the ones that I was arrested together with, regarding the case of Frida.   They were the ones that we were alleged to have burnt Frida together with.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you all members of the Huhudi Youth?

ANDRIES KGOBADI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you also members of the UDF.

CHAIRPERSON: I see you said they made you make statements.

ANDRIES KGOBADI: Will you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: You said they made you carry money bags.  Was it coins or paper notes?

ANDRIES KGOBADI: No, the bag I'm talking about is the bag they put your belongings in at the police station.  But they put it over my head and they sprayed it with tear gas.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they do this before explaining to you why they arrested you?  Or did they arrested you first?
Or did they tell you first why you were at the police station?

ANDRIES KGOBADI: No, they never told anything to me.  They never told me why they have arrested me.  They only assaulted me and told me this I did this, why I never did MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
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it.

CHAIRPERSON: I see here they are talking about Joe Mogaso?  Who is Joe Mogaso?

ANDRIES KGOBADI: Joe Mogaso was the UDF organizer before it was the ANC.  They wanted us to say it was this Joe Mogaso who influenced us to make such things.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he belong to the Youth Organization?
Did he belong to the Huhudi Youth?

ANDRIES KGOBADI: No, the was the organizer, but it wasn't him who influenced us.  The police wanted us to say it was he who influenced us to do bad things.

CHAIRPERSON: I heard you saying that when you arrived at the police station, you said you had come to sign, you were not arrested.  Were you going to the police station daily to sing?

ANDRIES KGOBADI: Yes, I was on bail for R150 in the case of public violence regarding Masoko.  That is where Brand assaulted us.  And I was signing regarding this case everyday at 5 o'clock, whilst I was on bail.
 And this policeman called Botes, he was a huge guy, who asked me whether I was Andries.  And I told him yes.  And that is when he grabbed me and went to ask me about this case of Frida.

CHAIRPERSON: You say by that time you were already bleeding.  What did they use to his you that you could bleed?

ANDRIES KGOBADI: I don't know what they hit me with.  I really didn't see what they hit me with because of the
tear gas they had sprayed on me.   I think they use a donkey pill to  hit me on the head.

CHAIRPERSON: So they made you appear before the MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
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Magistrate.  What the Magistrate say when they didn't accept your statement.

ANDRIES KGOBADI: It was in the evening when I went to the Magistrate to make a statement and I made a statement on what I knew.  I know I didn't do anything.  That is when I returned to the police station after 12 o'clock, when they told me I have just written shit for my statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Before Magistrate Cronje, what did they tell you to say.

ANDRIES KGOBADI: They were forcing us to accept that we burnt Frida.  That is the same statement I gave at chief Magistrate, but I never did that.  They wanted us to accept that we burnt Frida.
 And there was a court case and we were not found guilty because all the evidence we gave there was in the statements, because we didn't burn Frida.  Because they took photo's and the photo's were taken there and the photo's gave the evidence that it wasn't us who burnt Frida. 
 The policemen only wanted us to accept that we burnt Frida, because they assaulted us so that we could accept that we burnt Frida.

CHAIRPERSON: When your lawyer Saldana consulted you, did you tell him about what they did to you?   When I met they lawyer, Vincent Saldana, I think it was before the case.   Did you tell him about all they did to you?

ANDRIES KGOBADI: Yes, we told him.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you appeared in the court did they
ever sent you to a doctor?

ANDRIES KGOBADI: After we were assaulted we were never taken to a doctor.   We wanted to go to the doctor but they kept us in the cells.  They waited for us, for our wounds to heal a MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
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bit then they took us to the government doctor who was called Coetzee.

CHAIRPERSON: After this case did Saldanha sent you to a private doctor?    His or yours.

ANDRIES KGOBADI: In this first case Saldanha was not involved.  He was involved in Frida's case.  In the first case the Magistrate never asked if we had lawyers or not.
They conducted the case the way they wanted, because the Magistrate was also working together with the policemen.
Because they were sitting together when we were giving evidence.
 And that implied that we will meet in the cells.

CHAIRPERSON: When they said you burnt Mr Masoko's house - who was Mr Masoko?

ANDRIES KGOBADI: He was staying the same street as us, but I didn't know what she was, because when they came to arrest Steven Makono, they arrested him next door to us.  And after arresting him he brought the policemen to our place and they said I was together with the people who stoned his house.
 And I asked him, is your head working well?   You arrested this person just in front of me and you are now claiming that I was together with them when they stoned the house.
 And the other person said, no they burnt a Hippo whilst I was still with them.

UNKNOWN: Can you tell what you were doing in 1985 and what you are doing now?

ANDRIES KGOBADI: I was working at that time but presently I am not employed.   I am a bricklayer and plumber but I am not working on a full-time basis.

UNKNOWN: I would like to ask, and I know it is very MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
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painful, about your torture.  You talked repeatedly about given electric shock treatment.  What of your body did they shock?

ANDRIES KGOBADI: They were using an electric shock.  They had the shock attached my ears.

UNKNOWN: The time that they put the tear gas into the bag, or they sprayed it onto your face you say, could you tell us what you felt at that time and what it did to you?

ANDRIES KGOBADI: Before they did that to me I was a healthy person but since they started spraying me with tear gas and shocking I experience pains right through my body.

UNKNOWN: Andries, do you have to go to the doctor regularly now because of what happened to you at the time?

ANDRIES KGOBADI: Sorry?

UNKNOWN: Do you have to go to  doctor, to this hospital or to the clinic regularly because of what happened to you at that time?

ANDRIES KGOBADI: I have never been able to go to the doctor because in the second case when went to sign, I was locked up for 10 months until I was sentenced for three years.

UNKNOWN: What would you like the Truth Commission to do for you?

ANDRIES KGOBADI: I would like the Commission to decide whether they will pay or help me in another way.

UNKNOWN: Sorry Andries, could you just repeat that.  I didn't hear that.

ANDRIES KGOBADI: ...(indistinct)

UNKNOWN: You want compensation.  All right Andries.

MS SEROKE: Andries, I would like to ask, did you know Frida at the time.

ANDRIES KGOBADI: No I did not know her.
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MS SEROKE: Now you said, when they put those electric shocks through your ears.... How are your ears now?  Are they functioning well?

ANDRIES KGOBADI: No.  I can't hear properly.  I hear so hard.  It is not easy for me to hear anything.

MS SEROKE: OK.  Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Andries, I know you have said that you didn't Frida.  That you were charged and acquitted in the Frida Mabelane case.  But is there anything that you want to say today that may help Frida's mother and sister and grandmother about what happened to their daughter?

ANDRIES KGOBADI: No, I don't know anything about what happened to Frida.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Andries.