Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:   Sir, I would not be able to answer that question because this thing happened in a short space of time.

UNKNOWN: (Inaudible) ... evidence to say that the

UNKNOWN: /knife which

UNKNOWN: knife which was stuck in Mr Mxenge's chest was Mr Tshikalanga's knife and not your knife.

WITNESS:   He took mine from me.  I do not know i that is the one that he stabbed with, but he took mine.

UNKNOWN: Why did he take yours?  You each had a knife.  This is what my member is asking you.

WITNESS:   It was at the time when I was standing there not doing anything.  I don't know where his was, and he thought that mine would be more effective than his, but he did that.

UNKNOWN: Did you have a different knife?  I thought you all had Okapis.

WITNESS:   They were not the same, because the one that I had was a big one and they had Okapis.

MR MARAIS: Mr Nofomela, you in your application for amnesty applied for amnesty in regard to 16 instances of gross violations of human rights, is that correct?

WITNESS:  Yes, Sir.

MR MARAIS: Most of these events occurred after - if not all occurred after the killing of Mr Mxenge, is that correct?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir.

MR MARAIS: And do you remember that even at the time of the Harms Commission there were certain contradictions between you and Mr Coetzee that were apparent even during consultation before your evidence before the Commission?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir.

MR MARAIS: To what do you ascribe these contradictions between the evidence of yourself and Mr Coetzee?

WITNESS:   As I have already said, Sir, when MR Mxenge's car was taken from Durban to Pongola, Bothas Hoep, Piet Retief, I did not go.  I completed the journey there with what was happening because I knew where it was all going to end after having been told by Dirk Coetzee.  As far as the other things are

MR MARAIS: /concerned,

MR MARAIS: concerned, such as who fetched Joe Mamasela, I cannot say that it is a blatant lie.  What I remember is that I was given an instruction by Dirk Coetzee, and he had even given me his car to fetch Mamasela in.

WILSON J: Well, did you fetch him?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir.

WILSON J: Why did you tell the Harms Commission that Schutte brought him down?

MR MARAIS: According to my recollection I am not sure that that statement is according to the evidence before the Harms Commission.  I have not checked this summary contained in book 3 since I did not receive a copy.  Maybe if this can just stand down for a moment ... (intervention)

WILSON J: (Inaudible) ... according to his evidence Nofomela was already in Durban ... (inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

WILSON J: Page 20.  According to his evidence Nofomela was already in Durban, and Mamasela was taken to Durban by Schutte.  It would appear that Harms was there quoting from Nofomela's evidence.  I have no record of it, as I said at the beginning.  I am just relying on that.

MR MARAIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I see that quote from the finding of the Commission.  As I say my recollection of the events is not that clear on it.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But are - have you looked at the first paragraph with a star?   Isn't that paragraph with a star to which my brother is referring a summary of Coetzee's evidence?  You see the first paragraph with a star?  That is actually a summary of the applicant's evidence, and there the applicant actually says that, according to the summary, it is the applicant himself who brought in
	/Mamasela
Mamasela to Durban on the 4th of November.

MR MARAIS: That is correct, Mr Chairman, and that is his evidence here, and then it seems to me from that page that I am looking at now, and as I say it's the first time I am looking at it, the second paragraph deals with Coetzee's evidence or original statement.  And then maybe the third paragraph, where he refers to his evidence, that refers to Coetzee's evidence and not to Nofomela's evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not sure at this stage whether anything really turns substantially on these differences about what happened in their evidence at the different tribunals, but if you think that it is a matter of significance, and you would like to clear it up, you may do so.

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman, I also do not think so, and I think maybe it is a matter that can be left to argument.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other questions you wish to ... (intervention)

MR MARAIS: No, I have no further questions in re-examination.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARAIS

MR DE JAGER: You said in your application that you considered it to be a war against the ANC, is that correct?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir.

MR DE JAGER: (Inaudible) ... did you consider yourself to be in this war?

WITNESS:   I was on the side of the Vlakplaas group.

MR DE JAGER: (Inaudible) ... on whose behalf did they fight?

WITNESS:   Vlakplaas was fighting for the National Party Government.

MR DE JAGER: Were you under the impression, or were you told, that you're fighting on behalf of the Government?

MR DE JAGER: /Sir, it

MR DE JAGER: Sir, it was quite obvious that I am fighting for the Government, because most of the things I was doing I was doing to people like myself, fellow blacks, and not whites, and the whites were in government then.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there no other questions?   Yes, you may stand down, you're excused.

WITNESS:   Thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Your client does know that he is required to be here in respect of his evidence on other matters, does he?

MR MARAIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.  Mr Nofomela is not going to give evidence in these proceedings again.  He was not involved in the other two matters that are under discussion in these proceedings.  But he will be giving evidence at a later stage, I gather.

CHAIRPERSON: In respect of matters in which he is involved?

MR MARAIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Very well.  But you don't want him to be taken him back to prison now, do you?

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman, no.  I think it will be proper if he stays here if he is needed again.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mshe?

MR MSHE: Mr Chairman, I want to believe my learned friend is going to call the next applicant.

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman, yes, the next applicant then is David Tshikalanga.

MR MSHE: Mr Chairman, the application for David Tshikalanga is immediately after page 48.  The book is divided into two, but thereafter the numbering is ceased.  Immediately after page 48 starts Tshikalanga's application.  Mr Chairman, I am told - the witness told
	/that he is
that he is going to testify in Venda, but an oath can be taken in any of the languages.  He understands.
MR MARAIS CALLS

DAVID TSHIKALANGA: (Sworn, States)   (Through Interpreter)

DAVID TSHIKALANGA: QUESTIONED BY MR MARAIS

DAVID TSHIKALANGA: Mr Chairman, I see the witness is not wearing the head phones yet.  (Pause)  Mr Tshikalanga, how old are you?  (Pause)  Mr Tshikalanga, how old are you?

WITNESS:   I am 40 years of age.

DAVID TSHIKALANGA: Mr Tshikalanga, where were you born?  (Pause)  Mr Tshikalanga, where were you born?

WITNESS:   I was born in Venda.

DAVID TSHIKALANGA: No, that was again not the full answer that ... (incomplete)

CHAIRPERSON: Are the questions being interpreted to him?

INTERPRETER: Yes, they are.  They are being interpreted.  Yes, we are.

MR MARAIS: (Inaudible) ... interpreted.  Mr Tshikalanga, can you repeat again, where were you born?

WITNESS:   I was born in Venda.  I was born in Venda.

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman, I seem to hear the witness saying ... (inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be careful, so that the answer given by the witness is given fully in translation.

MR MARAIS: How many children were there in your family?

MR MSHE: Mr Chairman ... (inaudible) ... sort this out.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment to sort this out.
SHORT ADJOURNMENT
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed.