Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Oh, I thought you have finished.

DR BORAINE: What is the expression, goose for the gander or whatever it is, let us both try and help each other.  Okay, let us go.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I thought I was helping him.

MR JORDI: Yes, it was, I could not remember the phrase.  Now, when did you know that Mr Richardson was convicted and sentenced to death for the murder of Stompie Sepei?  When did you know that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: When he was sentenced?

MR JORDI: Yes, when he was sentenced.  So, that was in 19 ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: What year was that, 19 ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: 91?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR JORDI: Or thereabouts.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Ja.

MR JORDI: So, quite a few years ago you knew that he had been convicted, beyond a reasonable doubt, of having committed the murder of Stompie Sepei, a 14 year old boy, which he has now admitted to.  So, the conviction must have been a correct conviction.  Do you agree with me?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I do.

MR JORDI: It was a just and proper conviction.  Is that right?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, if he killed Stompie.

MR JORDI: And you admit that he did kill Stompie?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR JORDI: Right.  And you knew that in ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: On his own admission.

MR JORDI: And you knew that in 1991 that he had been convicted of the murder of Stompie?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR JORDI: Yet, until yesterday, you had confidence in Mr Jerry Richardson?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: In relation to him being an informer and all the other additional murders.

MR JORDI: So, in respect of some aspects you had confidence and in respect of other aspects he was just a murderer of  a child?  Is that what you are saying?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: The evidence which was led here was new to me ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: But ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... and it did not mean because he was convicted of killing Stompie, I lost all confidence in him.

MR JORDI: You say the evidence was new to you.  You knew he was convicted ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: About the others.

MR JORDI: ... in 1991 of ... (intervention).

DR BORAINE: I will not warn both of you again.  Please, please give each other a chance to finish, both you Sir and you Madam.  Thank you very much.

MR JORDI: I just want to note that I think I was interrupted there, so I do not think the warning should be directed at me.

DR BORAINE: I think you are both doing very well, but now you will stop it and carry on.

MR JORDI: I just want to note again that it is not on new evidence that is being presented that we suddenly know Jerry Richardson murdered Stompie Sepei.  We knew that in 1991, you must have had suspicions about that quite a long time before he was convicted and you knew about his amnesty application in September 1997.  Yet, you say, you said you had complete confidence in him.  In other words, you had complete confidence, I put it to you, you said that you had complete confidence in him and that you must have known that he was a murderer when you had that confidence?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: For your information, I have complete confidence in myself and I was convicted of kidnapping, a crime I did not commit.

MR JORDI: Well, we will come to that later.  Let us just discuss the case of Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala.  You have said already today that you accept that Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala had disappeared off the face of the earth.  Am I correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, it was what was alleged.

MR JORDI: And you have heard the evidence of Mr Nicodemus Sono when he says that he saw you on the 13th of November 1988, you were in the company of his son, who was in a beaten condition, you refused to allow his son to return to him, the father, and that he has not seen his son since.  You heard that evidence.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I heard that evidence and I disputed it.

MR JORDI: Yes.  Well, the result would be that you would be liable to prosecution for various serious crimes if you did admit it and you would probably have to plead ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You are most welcome ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: ... guilty, so ...

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... to proceed with any action ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: I expect you to ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... if you so wish.

MR JORDI: ... deny it.  Okay, then you heard the evidence of Mrs Shabalala who said that on the 14th of November her son said that he was not going to stand by while Lolo Sono had gone off to your house to try and prove his innocence.  He, Sibuniso Shabalala, would go there too, to your house, to try and assist Mr Lolo Sono to prove his innocence.  You have heard that evidence?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I heard that evidence, I am not omnipotent, I would not have known what actually took place in Mrs Shabalala's mind.

MR JORDI: Okay, and you have also heard the evidence of Mrs Shabalala that after her son went to her house, went to your house, her son phoned her, a day or two later, and that during the course of the conversation, which was terminated during the course of it, he said that he and Lolo Sono were at some place.  You heard that?  Yes or no?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I heard that.

MR JORDI: Ja.  So, we know, if we accept the evidence of Mr Sono and Mrs Shabalala, that their children disappeared and that they must have been alive sometime after they disappeared because of the phone call and I put it to you that this fits in with the evidence of Mr Jerry Richardson when he says that after he was released from custody on or about the 24th of November 1988, the children were in your custody, tied up in your garage in an assaulted condition.  What do you say about that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is a preposterous suggestion.

MR JORDI: Yes, you had total ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That was one of his hallucinations.

MR JORDI: Yes, you had total confidence in Mr Jerry Richardson until yesterday, now you are suddenly rejecting his evidence.  All of a sudden.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am not suddenly rejecting evidence from Jerry Richardson.

MR JORDI: Tell me.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You saw Jerry Richardson here, he made a spectacle of himself.

MR JORDI: Yes, and ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: And anyone who believes in the evidence led by Jerry Richardson, I have a serious problem with.

MR JORDI: Yes, my point exactly.  You were prepared to believe Mr Jerry Richardson until yesterday, despite the kind of person he is.  He gave a magnificent performance in the witness box and he is a convicted murderer and you knew that, any way.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I saw his performance here ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: Yes.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... and I saw that no one, in any ones right mind, would have further confidence in him.

MR JORDI: That is right.  I take it he has not suddenly turned mad?  He must have been like that for some time?  You knew Jerry Richardson, was he like this since you knew him or has he suddenly turned strange?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I do not think you are correct in asking me for that opinion, I would not have operated with Jerry Richardson if he was the spectacle he was here yesterday.

MR JORDI: But you operated, you were prepared to have complete confidence in him when he was a convicted murderer?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: At the time there was absolutely nothing wrong with Jerry Richardson ... (intervention).

MR JORDI: Yet, ... (intervention).

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: ... he had committed a criminal act, like we have criminals all over this country, holding very senior positions in Parliament.