Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR PIGOU: In retrospect Mr Coetzee, last year - let me just put this in context, last year we heard, we had a statement read into the record, I think it was read in by Mr Absolome Madonsela, who was an MK cadre and also was the General Secretary of the football club. In fact in a statement given to us in the annexures by Mr Potgieter, there's a statement from Mr Madonsela. Now what I'm trying to understand here because during the course of the last hearings and this hearing there seems to have been some sort artificial differentiation between the Mandela United Football Club and Umkhonto we Sizwe, but it seems clear to me that the Security Branch had information that there was a very close connection between these two entities. Now could you tell the Commission why more attention was not paid by yourself into the activities of the Mandela United Football Club?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: I don't know. I do not agree with the statement that the football club, that there was a link between them and Umkhonto, I don't agree with that, I gave my answer just now in that regard. And secondly I would say to your allegation that we did not give enough attention, on what ground are you saying that?

MR PIGOU: Well, I'm not going to go into great details but I can give you the two examples. I've just given you one of Mr Madonsela who was the General Secretary of the football club, also an Umkhonto we Sizwe member who is currently serving a term of imprisonment for MK activities and also a statement that is in the pack as well of Mr Leratole Ikaneng who gave information, we don't know whether it was under duress or not, but he gave information after he was detained in connection with the murders committed by Mr Oupa Seheri, a trained MK cadre.
 So clearly there was either a connection or personnel - and there are other instances of this, I'm not going to go into great detail but clearly there was a either there was an overlapping membership of the two entities or the Mandela United Football Club were in a position to, or members of the Mandela United Football Club were in a position to provide valuable information concerning MK activities so hence I would again put to you why more of an interest wasn't taken in the Mandela United Football Club?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: That I believe that they would be able to give information. It also is in the statements submitted, that there were attempts to recruit informers among those boys. But I want to tell you, I can't mention names and dates now, but there were various cases where if our staff spoke to those youths contacted them, that from the lawyers office we received calls to ask us what we had to do with them and if we wanted to ask them anything it had to be through the attorneys.
 There were even cases where calls were made directly to our head office to ask why we spoke to anybody of the football club.

MR PIGOU: Mr Coetzee, did you take a direct interest in the incident at the end of July 1988 when Mrs Mandela's house in Orlando was burnt down?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: When it was burnt down?  Excuse?

MR PIGOU: Sorry in July 1988 her house in Orlando East was burnt down, did you take a direct interest in what had happened in that particular?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: No.

MR PIGOU: And I just want to put a context there, we've spoken about the great sensitivity around Mrs Mandela, international figure and so forth, would you not have had an interest in trying to determine what was going on around this figure because there were insinuations which were made in the last hearing that the Security Branch had been involved in this?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: I can't remember the incident, I can't remember that I was there ...[intervention]

YASMINE SOOKA: Sorry, is there a problem with the interpretation?  It's back again, sorry about that.

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: I cannot recall if I don't know, I really don't know. As I know myself I would have been there, I can motivate that. I want to say that there were two occasions were action should have been taken at her house, where there would have been actions at her house. The one case was when there was a follow up of information with regard to a person who had been shot in the heel or the foot.
 The other occasion was when a weapon was retrieved from an outside room on the premises. There I wasn't told from the beginning, I wasn't one of the people to get there first but I tried to support my colleagues and where I could I went or I joined them afterwards, so I can't explain why I wasn't there when her house burnt down.

MR PIGOU: Both to Mr Nienaber and Mr Coetzee, would you say that every effort was made to investigate matters relating to Mrs Mandela?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Very definitely.

INTERPRETER: (And Mr Nienaber said "that is so.")

MR PIGOU: Would this also include the close co-operation with any criminal investigations as requested by the Attorney General according to the testimony of Mr Potgieter?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Chairman I want to reply in this way. We have already told you that we had a meeting every morning at the office and if anything happens through the information network, from whatever side and would it reflect upon Mrs Mandela against whom I can't recall pure criminal charge, it would be - then the responsible member would be asked to channel it to the detectives.

MR PIGOU: And would you say visa versa if this information was requested from another unit, you would co-operate in the spirit that the Attorney General had requested?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Very definitely Mr Chairman.

MR PIGOU: Mr Nienaber?

MR NIENABER: Yes definitely.

MR PIGOU: Mr Coetzee, I want to turn quickly to November 1988 and the incident in which Mr Fanie Pretorius was killed. Could you tell us how many men you lost through shooting incidents of this nature or involving contacts with MK cadres in 1988?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: I am not aware of the second member's name. I
don't recall it. In the three years it must have been two members who have been shot dead. There were other members who were wounded but fortunately we haven't lost them.

MR PIGOU: So, the fact that Mr Pretorius was killed was a very serious incident and one would presume you would take a specific interest in the circumstances leading to his death, is that correct?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: That is definitely the case.

MR PIGOU: Now, did you look into the investigation docket during the course of the investigation because - I know you left before it was completed, but during the initial stages did you look into the investigation docket of Mr Pretorius?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: No. I haven't done so at all. And I would like to say something here now if you'd allowed me to. I ...[intervention]

YASMINE SOOKA: Sorry to interrupt you but I think the question has been asked and answered and I'd rather prefer because of time constraints, that we actually move on.

MR PIGOU: Having said that it was a serious matter, could you tell us whether you did make any specific inquiries into the death of Mr Pretorius and who you made those enquiries to? Was it to Mr Lemmer, the Investigating Officer?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: No, I haven't said so, I said I haven't looked at the docket. As far as I'm concerned it was purely action because of a member we've lost in the execution of his duties. In fact I actually wanted to ask Mr Pigou, he will remember that when we spoke last year he was just as surprised about questions with regard to this case.  This is the first time that it was brought to my attention that there was any question after that and from the outset there was no such suggestion that there was anything strange about it, sinister about it, suspect about it.