Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-29

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Van Rensburg, I think for clarity sake I want you, there is confusion about how this command structure worked.  You were never Commander in the Eastern Cape, you were second in command.  If you gave authorization for an operation in the Eastern Cape, you could not go any higher than your Divisional Commander is that correct?
	 But Divisional Commander of a region were it Eastern Cape or another region, if they wanted to clear something, where should they clear that out or from whom should the instruction come, would that be the Head of the Security Police, and you were on a side function, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Regarding this specific operation, the approval in principle for the elimination of these persons, did you have anything to do with the principle that these people should be eliminated or did this come from Gilbert?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: The instruction which you gave, let's put it in this way regarding the technical execution of this operation?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, we can put it in that way.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I have finished Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Van Rensburg, you are excused.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I want to tell the Commission something which I think can be relevant in the further procedures.  Sorry Mr Chairman, during the long adjournment I spoke to Mr Nieuwoudt and he told me that he is feeling a lot better and would probably be ready to testify tomorrow.
	I have arranged to see him at four o'clock and if I am satisfied and according to what his Doctor tells me that he is ready to proceed with his evidence tomorrow, he will be ready to proceed tomorrow.
	The reason why I mention this, I believe that because this begins and starts with Nieuwoudt, he would have been the logical first witness and once his evidence has been heard, in all probability would substantially shorted the evidence of all the other applicants in this regard as well.
	I thought I would mention that for the convenience of the Commission and for the information of my colleagues in this matter.  I know we will lose an hour, but we will probably lose more than an hour I would guess that if, for example one of my colleagues is to lead one of his applicants now and lead them substantially in detail, which will have to be covered by, which they will cover with secondary evidence, whereas Nieuwoudt in fact could cover it with the original evidence as to investigations and that type of thing.
	I just mention that for the convenience of the Commission, Mr Chairman, and for the convenience of my colleagues.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we are afraid, we feel we must proceed because we need to finish this application and I think that we should proceed with one of the applicants and it must be, one of you must decide to call his client and if nobody does, we will direct that such and such a person be called.  We wouldn't like to do that, but we operate on the basis that everybody, when you all came here this morning, everyone was prepared to proceed with the matter.
	And Mr Booyens, you appear for both, you appeared for Mr Van Rensburg, you are also appearing for Mr Nieuwoudt?

UNKNOWN: That is correct Mr Chairman.  And I also appear for Mr Lotz and I don't mind, I can call Mr Lotz, but I must mention that this will be a very good example of, that is one of the witnesses that will certainly, to call him before Nieuwoudt, there are certainly others who could then be called before Nieuwoudt.
	To call him before Nieuwoudt would be a complete, will lead to a lot of wasted time, for the simple reason all that Lotz will tell you is I didn't even know about the operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Lotz was based in Pretoria, was he not?

UNKNOWN: No, no, no, Lotz was the one who was based here that drove the explosive loaded motor car just to a point and left it there and heard subsequently of the big bang that had occurred.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I think you must have obviously consulted with all of your clients and there is no conflict, otherwise you wouldn't be appearing for all of them.  And having consulted with all of them, you would know what to reserve for, or leave out for Nieuwoudt or what should be canvassed by Van Rensburg, and for that reason I think you are an appropriate candidate now to proceed.  You would be able to know how to lead Mr Lotz, because you have consulted with all of them.
	You know what to leave out for Mr Nieuwoudt to come and clear up later on, or cover later.

UNKNOWN: I will know it, my colleagues who must cross-examine won't know it, that is my problem.  It is the Commission's time, it is not my time, I am prepared to call Lotz now.

CHAIRPERSON: I think let's go ahead, let's see what happens.  We will try to handle the situation as we go along.

UNKNOWN: Yes, certainly.
WITNESS EXCUSED