Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-02

MR WILLS: Sorry, there is something I forgot to mention earlier, to ask you earlier.
	What job are you presently doing now?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I am a member of the VIP Protection Unit.

MR WILLS: That is part of the South African Police Services, is that correct?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: No.  I work for a company called Caliba, Executive Protection Services.

MR WILLS: And have you ever had, have you ever been a member of Umkhonto We Sizwe or had any training, military training?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: No.

MR WILLS: And were there ever any MK persons who assisted your SDU operations or provided weapons for you?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: As far as I am aware, I do not know any of them.  There may have been.  I once heard that there were some who had arrived in the area.  At that time I was not residing at that area.

MR WILLS: You have applied for amnesty in respect of three incidents, is that correct?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR WILLS: The first incident is one which you refer to on page 3, that is page 42 of the bundle members of the Committee, Mazabkweni, where you say we chased IFP attackers and warding off their attack, and then you say three people were killed, is that right?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Can you tell, you detail this incident a little bit more fully in your statement in support of your application, and can you tell the Committee about that first incident at Mazabkweni.  Tell us exactly what happened and what your involvement was.

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: As I mentioned earlier on, the IFP would arrive day and night, steal stock and burn people's homes down.  We had devised a programme that during the daylight, we would just walk around in the areas, just checking what is going on, and if everything is okay.
	After the Macubeni incident where sheep were stolen, in fact his cattle, everything was stolen, I and a person called Tim, went to that area just to check what was going on.  We did not have any firearms on us.
	As we were walking around and we were on top of a hill, we saw two persons and when we looked at them closely, we could not identify them.
	I asked them who they were because they were a distance away.  Where we were standing, there was a gumtree forest.  These people did not respond, they started shooting and when they did this, we actually ran and hid behind the trees and they fled.
	We chased after them for a few paces, and we returned because we did not have any firearms on us.  We were just trying to frighten them.
	When we returned, we were walking along the road, and we met Pat Mbakazi.  He was in a blue or navy Golf and he stopped and he said he was looking for us, because he had heard that we were in that area.
	I then told him that we had just been shot at by two persons who had fled, and I pointed the direction in which they fled.  And then he got into the car, and took a road into the left.  We went into the forest.
	We heard the car speeding off and we went back and went home.  When we arrived, we just sat around at home and we did not see them.  After a while he told us that he had caught them.
	He did not mention that he had shot at them, but our intention was that because they had shot at us, if we catch them, we would shoot at them too.
	After a few days, in fact the following day, I heard on the radio that three people had been killed in that area.  I then assumed that it must be the same people, who had actually shot at us because when he told us the story, he actually admitted that he had caught up with them.  That is why I have applied for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wills, Mr Dlamini, did I hear wrong, did you not say that when you and Tim saw them when you were on top of the hill, you saw two people?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: That is correct, there were two.

CHAIRPERSON: But then you say that you heard that three people had died?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So, one of the three couldn't have been a person that you saw when you were on top of the hill?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR LAX: If you will allow me, Mr Wills, why have you applied for amnesty in respect of these people?  What did you do to them?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: It is because when the incident started, I was present and I knew that those people were attackers.

MR LAX: But, you haven't done anything wrong in respect of those people?  You didn't assault them, you didn't injure them personally?

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't give an instruction that they be killed?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: I said because the fact that those people were killed, had something to do with me, because they had shot at us and I told some people that they had indeed shot at us, and they chased them and killed them.
	I don't know with regards to the third person, whether they caught up with him along the way or whether he was with the two, but that is what he told me.

MR LAX: You see, you never saw the three deceased, did you?

CHAIRPERSON: The bodies?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: No, I didn't see them.

MR LAX: So in essence, you don't even know if they are the same people that you saw, they may be three completely different people?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: It is possible, but from what he had told me, I had a belief that it must be those people whom I had encountered earlier.

MR LAX: Please carry on Mr Wills.

MR SIBANYONI: Just one question, Pat never said he killed them.  He only said that he found them, did I understand you correctly?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes, but I heard on the radio that people had been killed, and he, Pat, had actually been chasing such people.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  You say that  you met up with Pat and you indicated to him that these people had shot at you and he went chasing off in his car.  Did you hear anything after that in the sense of ...

CHAIRPERSON: Gunfire or anything like that?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: Yes, I heard gunshots, but I was not sure whether it was Pat or them, because there was normally gunfire and there was normally gunshots that were going off in the area, any way.

MR WILLS: But when you heard this gunfire, was it shortly after Pat had gone to chase these people, or - let us know what the position was.

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: It may have been about ten minutes after he had left.

MR WILLS: I am going to turn now to the second incident that you refer to.

MR LAX: Sorry, before you do Mr Wills.  Just if you can assist us Mr Dlamini, do you have from the papers it seems that you are not sure when this happened, and we don't have even a month that it is likely to have happened in.
	Can you try and assist us by narrowing the time frame, the time period?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: It is difficult.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you start off by giving a year?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: It must have been in the middle of the year.

CHAIRPERSON: Which year?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: It might have been early 1993, but I am not certain about it.

MR LAX: Well, was it winter, was it summer.  If it was winter in Ixopo, you would certainly remember that?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: It was actually raining as it is today.  It could have been in summer.

MR WILLS: Regarding the second incident, you say in paragraph 9(a)(iv) of your affidavit on page 42 of the bundle, that you refer to Bantam, in a battle between IFP and ANC ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wills, is that Bantam or Batong?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Wills, just one last thing.  This person Tim, that you talk about, who was he, Tim, where was he from?

THULASIZWE RAPHAEL DLAMINI: He was one of the people who came from Top and he was also involved in the protection of the community.
	But I did not know whether he was a member of the SDU or not.

MR LAX: And you don't know his surname or his family that he came from?