Amnesty Hearings — Witbank — 2000-01-31

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: ...(indistinct) and concentrated charges.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: ... (indistinct) elongated and concentrated charges.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Oh.  How many kilograms did you use?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I cannot remember exactly how many kgs we used.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Approximately?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Above 20.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Above 20.  This building, is it a single story or a double story building?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: It's not a single story.  I cannot remember whether it's more than three stories or whatever.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Where were the offices of the police?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I think they were on the second floor.

JUDGE DE JAGER: On the second floor.  Why didn't you consider planting a bomb for instance in the lavatories on the second floor?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I think that maybe it was not possible, but all the decisions came from my Commander.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, but you say it wasn't possible, so tell me why wasn't it possible?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I think maybe the security inside, to go inside with an explosive into a police ...

JUDGE DE JAGER: At night time?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: At night time I don't think there will be access because there wasn't anyone there except for people who are guarding the building.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You see, if you target specific people, we've got 30, 40 people injured here.  Not a single policeman.

JUDGE MOTATA: My colleague cannot be correct in that respect, if he has regard to the bundle, the second bundle where you have statements, 58, there is a policeman Zondi who was walking out and he was injured.  There was another policeman who was across the building doing some business and he was injured by ...(indistinct)

MR KOOPEDI: And if I may, Chairperson, just to add on what Judge Motata has said, I believe there are about three or four people who were at that time employed by the SAPS who were either in the offices or have just left the offices.  One was going to his car, who was also injured, so I am backing what Judge Motata says.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you kindly give me the reference.

MR KOOPEDI: I will start with, on page 22, I ...(indistinct - mike not on) I mean 27,

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.

CHAIRPERSON: Your microphone Mr Koopedi.

MR KOOPEDI: Sorry, Chairperson.  On page 27, there was a female constable Roelene Stiglingh, if I'm pronouncing it correctly,

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KOOPEDI: If you could bear with me Chairperson, I will find these people.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, whilst you are still trying to find more names, can you give a number to this bundle?  Can you refer to this bundle containing statements of witnesses at the criminal court as Bundle B.

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: And the application documents as Bundle A?

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.  On page 5 also, page 5 Bundle B.  58, Zondi ...(indistinct- mike not on).  58 on Bundle B.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still looking, Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: I am Chairperson.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, you could perhaps give  it to her, so I will continue with my next question.  Three people killed, Dinah Elizabeth Mula, Elias Msina and Jacob Masuku, is there any evidence that they've been connected with the police?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I don't know that, I never knew that.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you also foresee that women and children could be killed in this attack?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes, that we did know.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Were there any steps taken to avoid that or did you regard it as, well they may be killed, it wouldn't matter?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: It's what I've said earlier that according to our assessment, if it could have gone off later, more civilians would have been killed, that is why it was considered.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Well the great majority of the people who were injured were civilians.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: That's what I'm made to understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, I note that you are still locating the other pages.  In order to facilitate these proceedings, we'll afford you to continue doing so and once we come back from lunch, you can then be in a position to simply tell us the pages, if you have located other pages which will have reference to other policemen who were killed in this incident.

MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, I'm prepared to concede to the three that we've referred to at the moment.  Should I find any other, I will bring that to the attention of this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: You can bring it up during your legal argument.

MR KOOPEDI: Yes, I'll do that, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Nyalunga, I'm aware that you only accompanied your Commander after the target had been selected.  Is my assessment correct of your evidence in that regard?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not therefore take part in the actual selection of the target, that was done by Kholile all by himself.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it, to your knowledge, customary for a Commander to undertake some kind of reconnaissance before selecting a target?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't get your response.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I said yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know with regard to this particular incident whether Kholile or Thabang, as he has been referred to in these proceedings, had undertaken such reconnaissance prior to him advising you of the target that had been selected?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I didn't have that information, but I thought maybe he should have done that before.  I didn't know that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Were you able to deduce from what you knew to have happened in the past, that you don't select a target unless you have conducted some kind of reconnaissance?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes, I thought maybe he got some information from somewhere.  Maybe he's done his reconnaissance before he informed me.

CHAIRPERSON: So you only accompanied him after you had been informed of the selected target?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Once you were informed of the selected target, was the reconnaissance you conducted in his company, did that reconnaissance follow immediately after the target had been selected, o to your knowledge, after he had informed you of the selected target, he conducted some kind of reconnaissance all by himself before you also participated in the further reconnaissance that you've evinced before this Committee?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I think yes, he must have reconnaissance prior to informing me because he was not familiar with the are which means he had been to the area prior before informing me of the area of the target.

CHAIRPERSON: What I want to know is, after you had been informed of the selected target, did you immediately accompany him during the reconnaissance that you've referred to in your evidence?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: No, it was not done immediately.  He informed me until we started doing it a bit later.

CHAIRPERSON: How long after you had been informed of the selected target, did you personally accompany him to those reconnaissances you've referred to?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I think it's about a month or so.

CHAIRPERSON: And how long did it take for the operation to be ultimately executed after the target had been selected?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: I cannot be exact because there were other technicalities which had to be fixed before the target could be ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Can you not approximate whether, after you had been informed, it took six weeks, or more than six weeks, for the operation to be ultimately executed?

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: It took more than 4 months.

CHAIRPERSON: 4 Months.

PHILIP MAKWALE NYALUNGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Koopedi, emanating from questions from the Bench, do you have any questions you want to clear with Mr Nyalunga?