Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-26

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairperson and members of the Committee.
	Mr Chairman before we start with the leading of evidence may I request that counsels herein 
present today for the first time be put on record.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.	My name is S W van der Merwe, I appear on 
behalf of Mr Eric Winter who is implicated in the application of Mr Venter in relation to the PEPCO Three.

MS H KRUGER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  My name is H Kruger, I appear on behalf of General Smit 
who is implicated according to a notice received on 21 February in the matter of Dr Ribiero and his wife.

UNKNOWN: There is little likelihood of these matters being reached during the course of today - Mr 
Mpshe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, there is a likelihood that we may deal with he PEPCO three today but there 
is no likelihood of dealing with Dr Ribiero and his wife's matter today.

UNKNOWN: Yes.  Well, Mrs Kruger then you may be, unless you wish to stay on you will be excused 
from further attendance and I think it is hoped that we will reach your matter sometime tomorrow.

MS KRUGER: Thank you Mr Chairperson. I will return tomorrow.
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

GAUTENG: 166

UNKNOWN: Mr Mpshe, we understand that General van der Merwe is going to give evidence 
tomorrow morning?
ADV.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Is it your intention that immediately thereafter you will be dealing with the matter in 
which Mrs Kruger is appearing?
ADV.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman may I suggest that Mrs Kruger be here tomorrow at 2.00 o'clock so as to be 
sure that at the time she arrives we shall be through with the other matters as per schedule, Mr Chairman?

UNKNOWN: Mrs Kruger, will it inconvenience you?

MRS KRUGER: No. Not all. I will be available tomorrow afternoon.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much.	The letters that you mentioned earlier, thanks very much, 
copies of those have now come to my hand - the letters written by you to the Amnesty Committee here in 
Johannesburg. Thanks very much for those letters.
	Mr Mpshe, in the other matter that you are going to be dealing with today, is there no likelihood 
of Mrs Kruger's client being implicated in it?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, not to my knowledge because I went through the applications myself and I 
issued all notices to people who are implicated as per applications, I don't know if this may be the case 
inasfar as the mention of names at the hearing is concerned.

UNKNOWN: But as far as you are concerned at present.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: As per applications, no.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: (Aside discussion with Chairman) What about van der Merwe?
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

GAUTENG: 167

UNKNOWN: What about him?

JUDGE WILSON: Might he not implicate your client?

UNKNOWN: He has not - cross-examination.  Mrs Kruger we don't know what is going to happen 
during the evidence of Mr van der Merwe when he is going to be cross-examined tomorrow and at this 
stage one doesn't know whether there will be any mention made of your client in his cross-examination, but 
perhaps you might just monitor the situation and make yourself available if it transpires that you have an 
interest in the matter in what he says.

JUDGE WILSON: We have not had any clear evidence as to how their duties overlapped, but I have no 
doubt he will be able to tell you whether they were working in the same office and his name may be 
mentioned.

UNKNOWN: At any rate, in his evidence-in-chief, which has been read into the record, your client is 
not implicated in that.

MS KRUGER: I have got no problem to attend then if I understand you correctly, tomorrow morning 
when General van der Merwe is going to testify.   Will you then excuse me until tomorrow morning?

UNKNOWN: Yes, certainly. Thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, then the next issue is the issue on which the Committee was approached in 
chambers by Advocate Visser and Advocate du Plessis.  The Committee gave an indication that it would be 
dealt with right at the beginning before we commence leading evidence.   That pertains to the report, Mr 
Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Yes. Mr Visser.

UNKNOWN: May it please you Mr Chairman.  The reason why we believed that it is important to 
mention this in open 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 168

<UNKNOWN>: Committee will appear from a report dated 25 February 1997 in the "Beeld" and I refer your attention 
specifically to the last column in the middle to the following words.
		"Advocate du Plessis said that the five mens' then seniors were not prepared to provide 
the information. The general attitude of the security forces towards the Truth and 
Reconciliation Commission is negative. The general feeling is that the Commission 
should not be assisted".

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman I wish to place on record, that nothing could be further from the truth 
regarding my clients, they have filed applications for amnesty. General van der Merwe has offered his 
evidence and is going to testify tomorrow. 
	I wish us just to keep two matters separate.	The one is the "alleged non-assistance of the five 
applicants" before you now and what is stated here in the newspaper "assistance to your committee". Now 
we say that there is no grounds for drawing the inference, and the inference is in fact false and we wish to 
place that on record, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Thank you. We trust that there will be more responsible reporting by newspaper reporters 
of proceedings before this Committee.

UNKNOWN: Well, except Mr Chairman that apparently according to my learned friend Mr Mpshe, my 
learned friend Mr du Plessis did in fact say this.

UNKNOWN: Yes. Inaccurate report.

JUDGE WILSON: (Aside to Chairman)	It's an accurate report -

UNKNOWN: Yes, but it is 
the wrong impression created.

JUDGE WILSON: Well his counsel said it.

UNKNOWN: Yes.	Thank you very much for having placed 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

GAUTENG: 169
this on record.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman, I take it no further than that.

UNKNOWN: You wish to comment on that.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, please Mr Chairman. Thank you very much.
	Mr Chairman, I did say this, in argument.  It is true that the applicants, in October, when they 
prepared for their evidence, did approach certain persons to request them to be of assistance and they did 
have a lot of trouble with that. I do not withdraw any submission that I did make yesterday.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: In respect of Mr Visser's clients, I can place on record that most of them were 
represented by Mr Wagner, we did not approach them to help us at that stage or before this hearing, but 
what I want to emphasise again is that we did give evidence and it is not simply just an argument, it was 
evidence by Brigadier Cronje and Captain Hechter as far as I can recall that their superiors of that time, and 
specifically of the National Party has not assisted the applicants, has not offered the applicants any 
assistance whatsoever. I still stand by the view that we have difficulty and had difficulty finding witnesses 
pertaining to certain aspects and it was in that context that I addressed the argument to you.
	The second point I want to make in this regard is that we are grateful for the assistance of General 
van der Merwe to our clients - who is a client of Mr Visser and Mr Wagner. He graciously agreed to assist 
the applicants and the Committee at the time when we started with these hearings.
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 169