Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-15

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Yes, I had.  I had first of all with Colonel Mzwaiba, telephonic contact and I think we met once in Pretoria, at the Embassy and I think we met once at the Wild Coast Sun where we normally used to meet ... (tape ends) ... from the Transkeian Military Intelligence, which were part of the team, were in Pretoria, respectively in Johannesburg and I had regular contact with those people.

UNKNOWN: So can we safely say that you were part of the planning of the operation, you were part of the planning of the operation?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I was part of the planning of the operation, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: Did you take orders from anyone on the operation, or were you taking the initiative on your own as to what must be done, etc?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Whenever a certain situation developed, I spoke with Colonel Mzwaiba and updated him what the situation is, telephonically for example.

UNKNOWN: And did you take orders from him as to what to do or did you just take initiative on your own and reported to him as to what you have done?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I think it was never that clear cut, it was basically this is the situation at the moment, we want to do this, it was not an order, but while the operation was going, obviously things might change on a daily basis.  If nothing happens, you don't report back.  If things happen, you report back.  If some decision has to be made, you come up with the suggestion and you get the feedback if it is okay or not.  Does this answer your question?

UNKNOWN: Yes, it does, thank you.  The other operatives who were there for this operation, from whom did they take their orders?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Initially what I understand but I have to assume this, because I was not there, was they got initially the orders from Colonel Mzwaiba as their superior Officer.  For the overall operation, while they were in Pretoria, there was a situation where we cooperated and we, put it this way, once the operation was decided upon and the people were in Pretoria, the orders for the operation as such, the overall orders had been given already, I presume by Colonel Mzwaiba.

CHAIRPERSON: For instance, let's take a point of detail, the obtaining of the chloroform and the injections, who arranged that, who decided that, who planned that, were there any orders issued in respect of the obtaining of chloroform, etc?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Mr Chairman, the requirement for chloroform and anaesthetic came out when the operation developed, and the request for that came from our people, from us in Pretoria, respectively Johannesburg, presumably from me, to Colonel Mzwaiba and then it was arranged that the material was sent via their Transkei Embassy in Pretoria.

UNKNOWN: You also testified that you received some logistical support from Colonel (indistinct), Pretoria.  Who will make that request for the support, would you go on your own or one of the members will go?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: The request for logistic support for the operation, for example request of chloroform or something along that line, I think in principle from that point of view, this was the only major request, that request would have been relayed to Colonel Mzwaiba in Umtata.  He would arrange the supply and the supply - and I don't know how - would have landed up at the Transkei Embassy in Pretoria, presumably via Transkei airlines from Umtata to Johannesburg.  There it would be handed over to the team.

UNKNOWN: Did you know what the specific orders were?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: What the specific ...

UNKNOWN: What the specific orders were to the team that was with you there?  They were members of the Military Intelligence and you were not?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Yes.

UNKNOWN: So did you know what their orders were?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I presume I knew what the orders were, because when I got involved in the operation, I was briefed by Colonel Mzwaiba, so I presume what he told me, was identical to the orders which was given to the people, because otherwise we couldn't have worked together.

CHAIRPERSON: Was any of this communication between you and then Major Mzwaiba reduced to writing, did you correspond at all in writing?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: At no times did we correspond in writing, for a simple reason, that we were under the impression that any writing in this particular instance, would have meant sending information by fax.   We did not consider that for writing purposes, we would have a line which could be considered secure.

UNKNOWN: I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Mr, other, Mapoma.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR Z. MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Moringer, in your evidence you have told the Committee that the initial objective was to have Mr Mbotoli killed and you suggested that instead of him being assassinated, he be abducted to Transkei.  Where did it originally come from, this idea to kill him?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: That initial - let me explain how the situation when I was approached in this matter - I was told that the only person at the moment, after the death of Craig Duli who is involved, actively involved together with the South African Security Forces, is Mr Mbotoli.  He is here in Johannesburg and there is, they are busy at the moment seeking his whereabouts and killing him.  I was asked to assist in locating him.  This is when I said okay, as far as I am concerned, I don't think it is a good idea and my suggestion was to rather abduct him to the Transkei and be in the position to debrief him and find out who are actually the major players then in the South African Security establishment.  Does that ...
MR Z. MAPOMA: Yes, exactly the communication that you have just outlined now, where, I mean with whom did you communicate what you have just told the Committee?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I think, I am not sure about the location, but I think it happened at a meeting I had with Colonel, with then Major Mzwaiba at the Wild Coast Sun.
MR Z. MAPOMA: Who else was in that meeting?  Who else apart from Colonel Mzwaiba was in that meeting?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: The meetings at Wild Coast Sun was always a one to one meeting with Colonel Mzwaiba.
MR Z. MAPOMA: Is it your evidence that Colonel Mzwaiba came to you with an idea that Mr Mbotoli had to be eliminated?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: We had, Colonel Mzwaiba and myself, had the odd meetings a couple of times at the Wild Coast Sun.  The main reason why we had this one to one meetings, was if we wanted to discuss something we did not want to use the telephone for, we would meet one to one, and the Wild Coast Sun was the ideal place, I could fly to Durban, take a car, and the Wild Coast Sun at that time, was part of, I think, it belonged to the, partly, to the Transkei government as well.  There we would discuss matters which we didn't want to discuss over the telephone and during one of those meetings, okay, in previous discussions already, the whereabouts of Mr Mbotoli were the subject matter and then at one stage, as I said earlier, out of a telephone intercept, a telephone number in Johannesburg was found out, which resulted in the Transkei Military Intelligence sending people to Pretoria, in order to locate Mr Mbotoli and to eliminate him, to use the expression.
MR Z. MAPOMA: I see.  Now you said you countered that idea by saying that he must be kidnapped to Transkei rather than being killed?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: That is correct.
MR Z. MAPOMA: And you also said that you suggested that this injection be used?