Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

MR MOTATA: You sort of gave us time periods within which 1992/1993 when you became disgruntled and that you had to be eliminated and approached M.Z. Khumalo on two occasions and the last occasion, that is when you screamed SOS that you should be fetched from Durban, do you recall that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I do.

MR MOTATA: The time lapsed between you having testified at the Goldstone Commission and at that time, could you give us an indication?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I can't really tell, but it was quite some time, because the time I am referring to is the time when negotiations were being called for.  I don't quite remember when the Goldstone Commission sat.

MR MOTATA: You remember during cross-examination you were referred to a period that, let's for instance take that is how the cross-examination, if I still remember it correctly, went, that during 1987 for instance you were no longer happy within the IFP because you realised that they were cohorting with the South African government by having the presence of the SADF for instance?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR MOTATA: And we look at if we take that time which counsel has asked you about, to your eventual leaving it gives us a spell of five years.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR MOTATA: Within this spell of five years, had you already between the two periods, had you already testified before the Goldstone Commission?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I don't remember when the Goldstone Commission sat.  I don't know if it was before the Goldstone Commission.
	As I remember it seems like the Goldstone Commission was investigating hit squads that were allegedly within the KwaZulu Police.
	I don't know whether it is before that period.  But I think that was the time when negotiations were being called for.

MR MOTATA: And lastly, please help me Mr Luthuli, because this is disturbing to me, you were able to give amounts which you received upon your return from Caprivi, your increments, but there are two amounts and let's restrict ourselves to Yamile, that one person gives you amounts in two instances.
	You merely say a couple of hundred rands.  What disturbs me is that if from your affidavit, a lot of people appeared and who gave you money, it would be understood that you couldn't remember the exact amounts, but you are hardly giving us an indication, R100-00, R200-00, R2 000-00, you just say amounts and you leave it just like that?
	Can you now, I know it is some time back, can you really reflect and say approximately X amount, can you do that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It is difficult, but it could be about R100-00 or R200-00.

MR MOTATA: You see what disturbs me, you confirmed this affidavit, and it says couple of hundred rands.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I agree with you.

MR MOTATA: You cannot be of assistance to this Committee, by giving us that kind of figures?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, I wouldn't be able to.

MR MOTATA: Thank you very much, Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Khampepe, do you have any questions?

UNKNOWN: Mr Luthuli, you have already been questioned quite extensively by the legal representatives, as well as the member of the Committee, with regard to the policy of the IFP to engage in indiscriminate attacks, against perceived ANC people.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: And your response has always been that it indeed was the policy of the IFP to do that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

UNKNOWN: Now, are you able to give an indication as to who advised you about that policy?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: M.Z. Khumalo.

UNKNOWN: And at what stage of the command of the Caprivians, were you advised of that policy?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I can say that when they started operating, where they were allocated, that is when this killing of people began without verifying whether the person really belongs to an organisation or not.
	But merely for the reason that the people residing in a certain area, are known to belong to a certain organisation.

UNKNOWN: Are you therefore saying that M.Z. Khumalo advised you right at the beginning of your command, that you were to engage in indiscriminate attacks against perceived ANC persons?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

UNKNOWN: Can you then page to 231 and I just need an explanation of what is contained in your affidavit.  It is paginated page 231, but I think typed page 22.  Page 22, that is the typed number.
	And I am referring to paragraph 7.6.  You will remember that you were sketching here about the Planning Committee, I think what had taken place which was shortly after your return from Caprivi.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Now here you state the following:  The person to whom I was to report and from whom I would receive instructions, was M.Z. Khumalo.  He in turn reported to the Committee, that is the Planning Committee.
	I was given the responsibility of organising any operations to kill people.  The leadership on the ground, meaning the local leadership on the ground, in any particular area would be involved in deciding on who had to be killed, but I would put the operation into effect.
	I was to send the Defensive Group to gather intelligence and to verify the need for the person targeted to be killed.  If that is so and there was this policy of indiscriminate attack, how do you relate what is contained in this paragraph specifically with the policy of engaging in indiscriminate attacks?  If what you had stated here is that there was a need to do the verification before any attacks could be launched, I just need clarification on that one, because to me it is quit vital.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I can say that the formation of that structure, before it started operating, but when it started operating, it did not operate in the manner which is described here.
	Because the Caprivians were now scattered all over and were relying on the local leadership of the area but we tried at all times, to keep contact with them.

UNKNOWN: But do you agree with me then that the reading of that does not give one an impression that there was this policy of indiscriminate attacks?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, as it appears on the affidavit, I agree with you.

UNKNOWN: Yesterday, I cannot remember who was questioning you, you stated that there was great reliance on the local leadership to identify targets.  That once a local leader had identified a target, there was no need for you to then engage the services of the Defensive Unit to do the verification on the target who would then have been identified by the local leader, to be eliminated?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: Now, did that take place a few years if I can just get the time span, how long did that procedure take place, or come into effect, because according to your affidavit, you have here the need for verification by the Defensive Group whereas in your evidence you have stated that there was no need to do the verification.