Human Rights Violation Hearings — Mabopane — 1997-05-08

THALITHA SEKHAULELO: Yes, I want to say a few words. I was not there. There is nothing more I can say - what I can say (tape ends)......
 ........ is the cops. I was angry, I said to the police who came, then I said to them, I should stand up and take the corpse and bury it myself because I don't know what my child did or he has stolen something or he has murdered something. 
 When the cops came, on the head, it was swollen, at the back of the head there was a big gash. Under in his private parts there was a gash. When the following day when we were supposed to go to the cemetery, I don't know as what it was the hearse or what, it was a car which didn't have windows and it was blood-stained. I denied to climb on that car.
 My relatives said that I should climb on because they would start shooting. I climbed on that car but the car was blood-stained. I don't know what kind of blood was that. I was sitting in a dam of blood. My child was buried by the family only. We buried him during the week.
 They denied that the minister should conduct the night vigil, they denied that we should take him to church. The second thing, I want to find out what did, where did they take his clothes to. The shoes, the socks.

UNKNOWN: Thalitha, Ronnie was nineteen years old at the time. Was he your only son?

THALITHA SEKHAULELO: I have two children, two boys and the other one is still alive, and two daughters.
 Ronnie left school with certain reasons because I could not afford to take him further. Then he said to me - "Let me leave school and look for work".  He went to apply to be a soldier. He was taken by Mr Porfu and that person has since died.
 Ronnie filled his applications there, then they said they'll come in April and fetch you. When they came in April, they found out Ronnie was murdered and was buried. That was all.

UNKNOWN: Can I just ask Rachel, Rachel on the day that you saw the beating taking place of Ronnie and you went up to the police vehicle and you shaked him and you said there was no response did you feel already then that Ronnie had passed away?

RACHEL: At the time when I was calling him and not responding I thought he has fainted I was not worried with that, because the time will come that he will be conscious, maybe if they stayed longer I could have discovered that he has died.      DR RANDERA: Can I just ask you mention the name of two friends in your statement, Kidebone Magou and Jack Sono  who were with Ronnie at the time when he was arrested and this beating was taking place, and they were the ones who came back to you the next day I think it was and said that Ronnie had passed away, what was when you spoke to them, did they say that Ronnie was with them after the police left you? What was their story?

RACHEL: When the time the police were beating Jack Sono and Kidebone Magou Ronnie was thrown already in the van.      When they came in the morning from the police station I don't know as they were brought or what, but the time when I went to my aunt this when they had to during the night as when they had something that is when this boys left my aunt's house. We met on the road I didn't say anything to them, but when I looked at them they  bowed their heads. I didn't say anything then they left then I proceeded in the house. I didn't say anything to them , they didn't say anything to me.

UNKNOWN: Subsequent to the, to everything did you not speak to them? After the funeral since then?

RACHEL: After the funeral I did discuss something with them I asked them that when he left the village where did he go? They said when they arrived at Temba police station they were taken to the cells. They didn't know that when they were put in the cells where did they take Ronnie to. That proved to me that when they took the two boys to the cells the police discovered that Solly has died then took him to the mortuary, because during the night they didn't see him they were told in the morning when they were released that Ronnie has died.

UNKNOWN: Ronnie was a COSAS member and a student activist was that the first time that he'd had a run in with either the Bop police or the South African security police or any other police for that matter?  Had he ever been arrested before, harassed prior to this occasion?

RACHEL: No, this incident was the first one.

UNKNOWN: In my last question to both of you, was there a charge laid against the police ?

RACHEL: No. The way it was there was no way in which we could lay a charge against the police because there was my cousin who was working in Mafekeng he was a soldier or police I don't remember, when we were sitting down discussing this kind of issues he raised the issue that there is no docket which has been opened that what Ronnie has died. There is nothing what Ronnie has done so we were discouraged by the fact that those police who came to arrest Ronnie, the following day when they came to report that Ronnie has died are not the same police who came yesterday who were assaulting him, they were different police, so we didn't have the possibility to open the case because we didn't have the direction. DR RANDERA: You mention the name of a policeman at the time that Ronnie was being beaten can you, do you know whether this policeman is still working in Hammanskraal area, have you seen him again?

RACHEL: The one whom I saw is - has been crippled on the hand I don't know what is right or left is Mr Malibe, the one who is Kavambo who is at Temba police station, I don't know where he is now, the other one who is stationed at Bedwang who is Kitse I last saw him that time I don't where he is.

UNKNOWN: Thank you to both of you for your honest answers .               DR ALLY: Thank you, just one or two questions. You say that, you said that there was no post-mortem done so you have no medical, you were never given a death certificate?

THALITHA SEKHAULELO: They gave us a death certificate but it was not written on it there were no reasons for his death, they didn't write anything on it.

RUSSELL ALLY: What did they say cause of death.

THALITHA SEKHAULELO: They didn't write cause of death on the certificate.                  DR ALLY: Did you include a death certificate when you  made your statement? Did you give us a copy? When you made your statement did you include in your statement a death certificate, because we don't have any records of a death certificate in the statement that we've got.

THALITHA SEKHAULELO: The day they came to take statements they, we did give them a copy we showed them the copy of the certificate, because they just said he has died instantly.

RUSSELL ALLY: You gave a copy of the death certificate to the statement taker or you showed it to them .

THALITHA SEKHAULELO: We didn't give them a copy of the death certificate.                DR ALLY: It is important for us if we are going to follow this up if you can give us a copy of the death certificate that would help us, and then there was no inquest either? No court.

THALITHA SEKHAULELO: Nothing Sir.

RUSSELL ALLY: And just to be absolutely clear now the three names that you mentioned here, Kavambo, Kitse and Malebu, those are people who you saw the times Ronnie was being beaten that they were actually present and that they were doing the beating as well and involved in it.

THALITHA SEKHAULELO: I saw them they were beating, those were the police who were a problem at (...indistinct). Every time when during the former government you were not allowed to sell liquor or something those were the police we used to see all the time when the shebeens were raided in our area.

RUSSELL ALLY: Before the incident and that's why when Ronnie was                              MS SEKHAULELO: Yes I knew them before this incident.

RUSSELL ALLY: That's how when, that's how you recognised them again when, when they were beating Ronnie on that day.

THALITHA SEKHAULELO: That's true Sir.