Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-10

WITNESS:   Tsepo it seems he was a co-worker with him in New York, or a friend.

PROF MAGWAZA: I notice here that - okay I just want to clarify this.  So there was never a court case about the destruction of your property?  Was there any court case, formal court case?

WITNESS:   There was no court case about my property which was destroyed.  It was only one case when the destruction of my shop was there, and it was dismissed.  And then about the house there was nothing.

PROF MAGWAZA: The case when it was dismissed, where was the case?  In which Magistrate's Court where your case was dismissed?

WITNESS:   It was in Kroonstad Magistrate's Court.

PROF MAGWAZA: Do you know the name of the Magistrate at that time?

WITNESS:   I don't know, because I was not able even to enter in court as I was not allowed.

PROF MAGWAZA: Do you have a court case number or some docket?

WITNESS:   Yes, I have got case numbers.  I have submitted them, I think.

PROF MAGWAZA: You also have said you request that you want the Truth Commission to investigate what happened to your brother.  Thank you very much, Motete, you have given us a very detailed account of how you were harassed and how you lost your property.  We have noted all your requests, and we have taken them in serious note.  Like in all the other cases we will make recommendations, and from there the State president will have to decide as to what to do with this case and similar cases.  Thank you very much.

PROF MAGWAZA: Any other comment?

WITNESS:   I was asking the Commission to raise this concern.  My brother was a writer, and one of the books he has written is Class Struggle and Racial Conflict in South Africa, even if I don't have a copy of it now.  My brother had contact with the President, the South African President.  In one of his letters which he has directed to my sister-in-law they were still corresponding, and I hope that the President of this country knows him.  In his life he was a person who was prepared that South Africa should be liberated, and that it should not be liberated under any conditions.  When South Africa is liberated all people should be liberated in all spheres.  There is a lot of correspondence, even if much of it is not important, but it shows what character he had.  It shows that he was a person who is courageous, even though he was assaulted by whites, when he left this country.  What they did, they didn't assault his spirit and his mind.  His mind will live.  It will live in his books which he has written.  Another thing which I am requesting is that the Commission should make investigations, that after his death that apartment where he was staying all his belongings disappeared.   Even up to now we don't have anything.  What we have is only his corpse, with so much expense.  We requested funding from the ANC and no organisation was able to help us to bury this soldier who has fought for the liberation.  So I am asking that the Commission should make investigations that - the little information we have is that when he left Dar-es-Salaam they went to Moscow, where they opened an office.  Then from Moscow they went to New York.  Then they opened an office there.  I hope that there are sensitive documents which may be helpful to this country, which may have disappeared and can be found, if these people who are in their possession may be found ... (incomplete - end of Side A, Tape 5) ... them at all.  Therefore we ask the Truth Commission to make some investigations about his life.  The information we have is that he was a person who was very quiet, a person who didn't want to speak about the organisation.  He was always talking about the meeting when he was in a meeting, therefore among friends he was not talking about the organisation.  We hope therefore that he was a soldier, that the Commission should investigate about his life.  I thank you.

PROF MAGWAZA:    Thank you very much.  I just want to ask one question.  You have mentioned that his friend was Tsepo.  Where is Tsepo now?

WITNESS:   Tsepo is still in New York, but at this moment we have lost contact with him.  When we try to phone, even if we try to make faxes, we don't get answers.

PROF MAGWAZA: Was Tsepo the real name or the nickname?

WITNESS:   We don't know, because on the phone he is Tsepo, and on the faxes Tsepo.

PROF MAGWAZA: Thank you very much.  You have lost so many things.  How has this affected you and your wife?

WITNESS:   It has medically affected me because the kind of life I used to live has changed.  It has even affected my marriage, where now as I talk now we are not closely linked with my wife, because the life we used to live we - I will not be able to reach that standard.  I am now a loafer.  I am called names, and people call me names.  The new life I am starting to live now is I am hiding myself.  I am not able to go places because the standard I used to live is now lower.  I would not be able to reach the standard I used to live with, but I am very proud with one thing, that the God I am praying is a living God.  Then if he was not alive I could not have been here.  Then I got all those counselling, it was from God whom I prayed.  Then I want to sympathise with people from Kroonstad.  Pray God.  Protect yourself through God, because it is through Him only that all things will be accomplished.

PROF MAGWAZA: (Inaudible) ... both of your are not working?

WITNESS:  We live by chance.  If you call me to build you a verandah, or to build a ceiling or burglar proofing, that's how I live.  And I know that people now don't have much money, and at times - in many times I have no time even to - the other reason that made me to leave Kroonstad, the house which I used to live in, the walls tell stories.  If I am inside that house I am not able to forget.  That is the thing which has made me to leave to Senegal.

PROF MAGWAZA: (Inaudible) ... give us the full address of Senegal.  What street, what number?

WITNESS:   1221 Senegal, Mahlabeng.  I don't know the name of the street.

PROF MAGWAZA: You don't  know the street.  Thank you.  Okay, thank you very much.  You have really suffered a lot.  You have lost almost everything.  A person who had a shop and a house and four cars.  All gone.  And you were a self-supporting person, you had to work hard to have achieved that at your age.  And all that was just destroyed, and you have no job now.  And on top of that you lost a brother overseas.  You don't even know where his tomb is.  We want to express our sympathies and condolences with you for the loss of your brother, and we appreciate the kind of faith which you have in God.  You can still start afresh and make it if you have in God.  There is that very good ... (inaudible) ... in our Bible which say that all things work good for those who trust Him.  Do continue to trust Him.  He will help you.  And we have noted all what you have asked here for, and we are going to pass this again to the President and the Government.  We can see the  whole picture around these areas.  This name Dewitty keeps on coming, but unfortunately though he took the lives of people he had no power to retain his own life.  He is gone himself.  He died.  So thank you very much.  We have noted all what you have asked for.  We will try our best to follow through it and also try to make investigations about your brother through the works he has published, "Class Struggle and Racial Struggle in South Africa."  Indeed he must have been a very good scholar.  Thank you a lot.