Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-21

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Well, because it says Goldie and Goldie was Mr van Zyl's project, his project file, and Makarov bullets, that is the association that I make that it might be for that project.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But this is not, I will show you others, this is not the only reference in this diary to obtaining Makarov ammunition.  You will see also on the left hand side of the page it says firstly that you must be picked up at 12H30, do you see that?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And then it says that there is a presentation, Region 6, to the Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it might be, sorry Mr Kahanovitz, it might be introduction, because wasn't this  your second day of work?  Didn't you say you started on the 1st of ...

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: This is 1989 Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, 1989.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Could you please repeat the question, Mr Kahanovitz?

MR KAHANOVITZ: It says there, it appears to say
"... presentation, Region 6, to the Chairman",
	right?  Or it could be "aanb", I am just trying to ascertain from you whether you can remember what projects would be presented to the Chairman on the 2nd of June 1989?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: It can only be one of Omar or Evans.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Are you assuming, you see, we have the strange situation here where you are working on all these external projects that you don't, won't tell us about.  Are we to assume that everyone of the external projects that you were working on, was never approved by Gen Webb?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, because no project of mine was carried out, externally.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Okay, you won't tell us any of the details, but you are willing to tell us that you were flying all over the place in circumstances where you were dealing with projects that had never received Gen Webb's authorisation?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: You create the impression for the Commission, Mr Kahanovitz, that I went all over.  I went to Namibia once.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Turn the page.  You will see on the 26th of June, page 21, now under the heading "Koord", item 3
"... pre-studies must be stopped and finalised on file (it seems like)"
	Do you know anything about on the 22nd of June about pre-studies being stopped, and why?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What was "koord"?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Co-ordination, co-ordinating.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The following page, page 22, the 28th of June it says, it is a reference to training for Region 6, 21 August to 26 August, does this ring a bell"

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I cannot remember.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But surely if you went on a training course for a week, you would remember?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I cannot remember.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You cannot remember?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Because we have only been told about one training course?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is right.

MR KAHANOVITZ: That is the only one you recall?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.  In all honesty, I cannot remember this.

MR KAHANOVITZ: All right.  Turn the following page, page 23.  There is a reference which appears to suggest that Joe Verster was going to spend some time in Europe, are you aware of him going to Europe?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No?  Mr Chairman, I don't know if you want me, I am not going to finish this diary before we, before the close of today.

CHAIRPERSON: We can go on for another 15 minutes, would that ...

MR P DU PLESSIS: We are happy Mr Chairman.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Page 24, the 10th of July.  Now, you should read the 10th and the 11th of July, the entries together.  You are aware that Region 8 was Namibia?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, Mr Basson has already testified in previous proceedings that a meeting was held where a decision was made to divert the focus of a number of CCB regions to the forthcoming elections that were then scheduled for Namibia, did you attend that meeting?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I was aware of the attention that had to be paid to Region 8.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And you will see for instance at the bottom of the page, he makes certain notations
"... to not burn the place down; election date not to be postponed; disrupt SWAPO meetings; disrupt SWAPO loudspeakers; get snakes",
	etc, etc.  Do you recall going to a meeting where that was discussed?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You don't?   Are you aware of, there are two entries in relation to "spread illness in camps".  Are you aware that there is a charge pending against Dr Wouter Basson, concerning the, a CCB project to spread cholera bacteria in the water supply of refugee camps in Namibia at this time?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't know what the charge against Dr Basson is about, but it is possible.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Are you aware that there was a project in existence at that time, of the CCB, to infect water supplies with cholera bacteria?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: On page 25, you will see, it says Bert (which is you) and it says
"... stop and direct to Region 8 ..."
	which appears to indicate that you must focus your attentions on the Namibian region?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Is that so?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What were you told?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: To disrupt SWAPO supporters.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And how were you going to do that?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I know what was suggested to us, what to do, they had, our people had to, taxis and buses transporting SWAPO supporters, had to be sabotaged and burnt down.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And you were making use of an unaware operative in Windhoek who was going to carry out certain of these tasks for you, correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I think now we are moving to external projects.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well, I am just putting it to you that evidence was already led in the Lubowski inquest, where you were identified by somebody by the name of Charles Neelsie, he was known by the alias Taxi, that you were involved in handing certain instructions to him, in relation to disruption of the SWAPO election campaign.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't know him at all.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I see.  Do you know who Johan Niemoller is?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Verster's relative?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I heard about him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Who gave you the instructions in relation to the destabilisation of the SWAPO election campaign, where did you get them from?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: From Verster.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Gen Webb must have been involved in such a big campaign?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I assume so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I mean there is no way that the CCB would be able to divert the focus of various regions that were not supposed to be working on Namibia, without his permission?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I will accept that this was not only Region 6 directed towards Region 8, it was the totality of CCB towards Region 8.  Such a decision, Mr Verster, would not be able to take on his own, so I assume that Gen Webb would have been aware of it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Are you aware of a project where oil, motor vehicle oil was doctored with acid and the hope was that that oil would be used by certain vehicles that SWAPO was making use of?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: This, where it says
"... direct pro SWAPO social events ..."
	what is that about?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't know.

MR KAHANOVITZ: All right.  Just turn the following page, page 26, 14th of July.  Maybe we can just start at the bottom of the page, where it says, under item 5
"... look at drinking places in order to use medicines ..."
	what do you think the word "medicine" refers to there, in the context of the CCB?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I don't think I would have wanted some of that, but it probably refers to toxic substances.