Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-06

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: We realised that we were under difficult conditions, we have to refer the matter to the upper level, that was the sub-region.  That was not the end of our efforts, I think Mr Guleni and Mr Ntekiso who was the then Chairperson of the ANC, at Port St Johns, at the time and we also reported the matter to the Umtata region of Umtata, where comrade Ndahonde was a Chairperson, and Fizula Bengu was a Secretary.
	We requested them to refer the matter to the Department of Umkhonto we Sizwe in the offices of the ANC.  I am sure that they did so.  They reported what I just told you about Costello.
	What I am trying to indicate here is that the comrades from Flagstaff, Lungile Mazwi, Maxhayi and Nyalukana is what made them to think about Port St Johns when Chris Hani died.  That is exactly what made them to think about retaliation after the death of Chris Hani.

MR ZILWA: Do you refer to the subregion as the people from Flagstaff?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is so.

MR ZILWA: Did you sometimes hold joint meetings with them?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is correct.

MR ZILWA: In the course of such joint meetings, did you report to them the problem that you conceived to be having in Port St Johns regarding Costello and his AWB?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is so.

MR ZILWA: Are you saying that is why when this, when Chris Hani was killed, they thought of Port St Johns as the most appropriate place to come and launch the attack?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is correct.

MR ZILWA: Okay, please carry on.

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: What happened there at the sub-region, myself and Guleni, we were given a mandate to visit all the Branches and ensure that we do get the real report about our suspicions, that there was some infiltration by white people and what was actually happening about Costello, what I have just told you now.
	I can say that we did that investigation, but I want this to be clear, that we did not get enough time because the period was actually very busy, trying to canvass for the elections of that year and the other duties that had to be performed by the Congress.
	Therefore, we did not get the concrete information about that, until the day of Chris Hani's death came.

MR ZILWA: Okay, you have told us about this fellow who you say resided in Port St Johns, in town.  Now I want you to talk about the other outlying coastal areas and in particular in Gomolo.  Was there anything untoward that you suspected pertaining to this areas, especially Gomolo?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is so.  There is a beach front, there is a coast called Mdageni at Gomolo.  That is not far from the coast called Mbande where these white people were killed.
	Some of the information that we gathered from the comrades from that rural area, was that they used to see Costello there, holding meetings and we thought that those meetings are the same meetings as, as similar to the meetings that were normally held at his place.

MR ZILWA: You say you received information from the comrades who reside next to those coastal resorts, that Costello was holding meetings in those coastal resorts, meetings similar to those that were held at his house in Port St Johns, in town?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: That is correct.

MR ZILWA: Now, when you heard that information, what did you conceive to be happening at those coastal resorts, Mbande in particular?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Both of these coastal resorts, we regarded them as their base, where they plan their things that can actually disturb the freedom of operation in our organisation.

MR ZILWA: Right, now with that conception in mind, please carry on.  So Chris Hani was killed and the comrades from Flagstaff arrived in Port St Johns.   Please take it from there and continue?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Even the Mbande coastal resort, became one of the places where Costello would go to.  We used to get this from the comrades who would report this to the office because they had some knowledge about Costello.  They also had a hearsay knowledge.
	After Chris Hani's death, comrades from Lusikisiki came on a Monday, I think it was on the 12th, they came with a view that we should do something to retaliate Chris Hani's death.
	They said that they were thinking about Port St Johns, the one that we told them about, and they asked us where those white people were at the time.  We told them that they were around, there were some in town, but it is difficult to do something like that in town, because there were police and the camps, military camps, were there at the time, therefore the action would actually reach the ears of the police and it would actually disturb us from continuing with this mission.
	We told them about these coastal resorts that were around.  We agreed to visit those places, but the problem that we had, we did not have arms at the time.  When we heard about the types of weapons they had, we were not satisfied that we had enough.  We asked    Nyalukana to take us to Zongizela Mxhiza who would try and organise some weapons, firearms, for us.
	We arrived there at Mxhiza's place, we told him about the situation and our aims, but he did not have firearms at the time, he had to contact other comrades to get more firearms.
	Some comrades who left with Zongizela to those comrades, who were said to be having arms, but those comrades refused to give them their firearms, because they also wanted to be part of this mission that we were planning.
	We could not send them away, we had to leave with them, we had to take them with.

MR ZILWA: They wanted to be part of the mission, yes, please carry on.

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: We left for Gomolo.  After we left a place called Tombo, where there is a tar road, that is leading to Umtata, just before we get to Gomolo, we stopped because it became clear that each and every person in this car, did not have a clear picture about the place that we were going to, accept myself.  I tried to explain to them what type of a place, but still, we could not come to any conclusion as to how to do this operation.
	We were forced to reach the place, so that the other people could have a clear picture about the place.  We left for Gomolo.  We arrived at Gomolo.  We passed the intersection, we passed the intersection that was going to Mbaluweni, headed for a rural area called Mposhosho.
	We alighted from the vehicle, all of us.  We took a decision that one should take a car and drive and take the road that was going to Mbande and we decided to walk through a forest.
	We arrived at Mbande, we decided that some people should go straight to those areas where, those areas that were identified as the places that were used by whites.

ADV DE JAGER: Can I just get clarity.  You alighted and did only one of you drive with the car, proceed with the car?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is so.

ADV DE JAGER: Who was that?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: If my memory serves me well, I think it was Mr Mazwi.

ADV DE JAGER: Was that the previous witness?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is so.

ADV DE JAGER: How many of you went through the bush?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: It was seven of us.

MR ZILWA: Please carry on.

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Myself, Guleni and the deceased Nyalukana, we went to a place where the white, the place that was used by these whites, when visiting Mbande.

MR ZILWA: In other words, ...(indistinct) to the cottages where they actually stayed?

PUMELELE CIVILIAN HERMANS: Yes, that is correct.

MR ZILWA: Please carry on.