Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-29

MSIANDA NTONGA: I don't know what was found in their possession but I cannot remember anything, I don't know because even their clothes were taken, I don't know what is it they took from those clothes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you?

ADV SANDI: Thank you Chair.  You've made mention of a Combi, whose Combi was this?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I don't know but it was from the community, I don't know the owner.

ADV SANDI: Just to get more, you know, precise clarity about your arrest.  Is there someone else who was arrested in the same vicinity where you were arrested at the same town in the
same vicinity?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes that is correct.

ADV SANDI: Who was that?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I cannot remember his names but we were two on that particular spot, I cannot remember his name.

ADV SANDI: Now that person whose name you cannot remember, was he found in possession of anything?

MSIANDA NTONGA: No, nothing was found in his possession, even in court nothing was made mention of any item that was found with him because we were arrested on different spots but in the same forest.

ADV SANDI: Ms patel has been asking you about the items which are not firearms and ammunition.  Did you see any of these items at any stage?

MSIANDA NTONGA: No I saw nothing else except what I've mentioned, the firearms and the ammunition, nothing else.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, thank you Chair.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Ntonga, these roadblocks, was there only one that was sort of where you worked in shifts or were there many roadblocks?

MSIANDA NTONGA: You would take two roadblocks sometimes because there were two roads that were coming from town.  We would only close the roads that they were having access to the White area.

ADV BOSMAN: And who organised the roadblocks, who told you to go at a certain time and who organised the shifts?

MSIANDA NTONGA: As I've already explained, the announcement was made after the incident that took place at the hall and since that we would have two shifts at the roadblocks, the morning shift and the late shift.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes but my question is, who made these announcements, who were the leaders that organised you?

MSIANDA NTONGA: No one was responsible, we were solely responsible for anything but those were the matters that would arise during the shifts and we would have to find a solution to whatever the problem and we knew that the weapons were there on the farms so people would suggest places among us and we would go to that particular place and do as usual.

ADV BOSMAN: But how did you know to go to Mr Hansel's farm and to Mr Cobus' farm and to the Pretorius' farm and to Mrs Marulia's farm?  How did you know to go?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Those were the matters that would arise during the roadblocks.  The others were having the firearms and the others were having other objects that could be used therefore such decisions would come from people during the shifts.  Though the announcement was made on that particular day that we could get firearms from the farmers but we were also told not to kill but only to take the firearms and tell them to leave and we were told that they were going to write letters to them to tell them to leave.  We were still doing as it was discussed during that meeting.  The leaders were not visiting the roadblocks frequently to tell us what to do so we continued to do the job until we were arrested.

ADV BOSMAN: Now on most of these farms there were old people living on their own.  Do you agree?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes, at the time I did not know that, I did not know the owners of the farms and the ages of the people, I would go there and find it there but that was never mentioned that no age limit was mentioned but they were talking about White in general, no other adults or young people were mentioned.

ADV BOSMAN: Was this just incidental that they were old people living on their own in four of the incidents?  Was it just incidental?  It wasn't planned that way at all, to go to farms where there were people living on their own and people who were elderly?

MSIANDA NTONGA: There was no planning.  We were working with Whites in general, Whites on the farms whether it's a woman or a man but we would just go there as all of them were farmers.

ADV BOSMAN: Were there any of these people who were attacked who you knew personally?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Most of those farmers that we were attacking I did not know them.

ADV BOSMAN: My question is were there any of them that you knew?

MSIANDA NTONGA: No, I did not know any of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Kincaid any re-examination?

MR KINCAID: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Your testimony, Mzuyanda is that you acted in a group, there was a group that carried out these attacks and that the decision to attack was taken at the roadblocks, do you confirm that?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KINCAID: So at the roadblocks were some discussion given to the manner in which the attacks were to be carried out?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes, that is correct, but most of the times you would talk about firearms because they were not sufficient, and even in the place where we were it was not safe for us to be there.
	The police would come in a disguise, would walk to the roadblock and we'd just hear a bullet.  Therefore, most of the times we were discussing about the firearms, and after that we had to pursue what was said by our leaders there, the idea of driving the farmers away.

MR KINCAID: So the attacks on the farmers was a group effort, it was the actions of a group of youths?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KINCAID: Correct me if I'm wrong, Mzuyanda, but I don't understand you to be disputing your convictions.  You were convicted in the Supreme Court of 14-odd counts involving robbery, malicious damage to property, attempted murder, housebreaking with the intent to rob, am I wrong?  Do I misunderstand your testimony?  Are you saying that those convictions were wrongly founded or is it your case that you were properly convicted by the Supreme Court?

MSIANDA NTONGA: No, the conviction, the judgment was not fair.

MR KINCAID: Why do you say that, Mzuyanda, in what aspect?

MSIANDA NTONGA: In the sense that at the time we were fighting and we were fighting for our rights and we were not wrong in what we were doing.  There was no time to talk, it was time for action, time to use our power.

MR KINCAID: That's what this Committee is faced with now, is assessing what motives you had in mind when you committed these criminal acts, and I'm asking you, is it your case that you didn't commit these criminal, that the convictions in the Supreme Court were not proper convictions, or do you accept that you were convicted correctly, but what you put before this Committee now is a disclosure of the motive for committing those acts?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR KINCAID: Do you confirm the contents of the affidavit you deposed to on the 21st of April and signed before a Commissioner of Oaths, do you confirm those contents?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes, I do confirm that.

MR KINCAID: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KINCAID

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I assume that concludes the testimony of this applicant?

MR KINCAID: It does, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntonga, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED