Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-11

MR STANDER: You were then taken to the Security Branch offices?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Mr Makhubalo, were you at all involved in the murder of a so-called informer?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: No, My Lord.

MR STANDER: Did you know this man, I believe he was called Gosi?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Yes, I know that name.

MR STANDER: Were you present at all in the hall on the day he was murdered?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I was the Chairperson.

MR STANDER: You were Chairman of which organisation?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I am saying I was the Chairperson of that day's meeting.

MR STANDER: Could you tell us briefly the background to the purpose of this meeting?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Chairperson, please forgive me, I want to reply to this answer in Xhosa.  What was happening on that day, it was after the burning of COSAS.  Now we were preparing that as students we should have our organisation.

MR STANDER: This Gosi, was he accused of being an informer?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR STANDER: And what happened during this meeting?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: We tried as leaders to look for a solution to this.

MR STANDER: And when the body of the meeting did not believe him, what then?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: We were now thrown with chairs.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should be careful about not leading him too much.

MR STANDER: I will take care not to do this, Mr Chairman.

OUPA MAKHUBALO: We tried to hide and stop.

MR STANDER: Do you mean when you say you tried to stop, did you mean you tried to calm down the meeting?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: We were trying to stop the chairs that were hitting us.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You did not succeed in stopping the assault on him and he was eventually killed that day?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Is it also true that you were later charged with the attempted murder on this person?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct, I was charged.

MR STANDER: But you were found not guilty and discharged?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR STANDER: I am going to move over now to the incident when you were arrested, you and a group of some 20 persons by die South African Defence Force on the border between South Africa and Lesotho.
	How did it happen that you got arrested on the border?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: We wanted to skip the country, we wanted to affiliate to Umkhonto We Sizwe.

MR STANDER: Why did you want to leave the country, for any other reason than joining MK?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: We were tired of the harassment of the boers and the Security Branch police.

MR STANDER: What happened when you got arrested on the border?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: We spent a night at that place where they arrested us.

MR STANDER: Was this in the veld?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR STANDER: And after spending the night in the veld, where did you go then?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: They took us to their camps.

MR STANDER: After you got to the Security Police at Ladybrand, what happened to you then?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Some of the policemen were present there and they arrested us.  They already knew that I was Oupa Makhubalo and this person was Oliphant, they knew us by names.

MR STANDER: Tell me, did they bring you to  Bloemfontein then?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Were there any women present in this group?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR STANDER: What happened when you got to the Security Branch offices in Bloemfontein?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: 90 percent of the Security officials were present.

CHAIRPERSON: What time did you get there?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I won't be in a position to tell the time, but it was round about ten, if not eleven o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: In the morning or the night?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: In the morning.

MR STANDER: When you arrived there as a group, you said about 90 percent of the Security policemen were present?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is what I am saying.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: When you say 90 percent, you are just, do you want to tell us that there were many of them?  Is that what you want to say?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I am saying many of the Security officers were there.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Just say many, don't say 90 percent, because you don't know what 100 percent is.  You don't know how many of them  ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, have you been there before?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: A lot.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know how many were stationed there?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Because I was arrested for a long time, I used to go there and I knew a lot of them.

MR STANDER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Is it true that you didn't know all the Security policemen?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR STANDER: When you got there, what happened to you then?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: We were put in their office and the led us to the kitchen.

MR STANDER: When you say they took you to the kitchen, who was taken to the kitchen?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: All of us, we were taken to the kitchen.

MR STANDER: What happened ... (intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Can you tell us which floor?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Because I was not working there, I won't be precise which floor it was.

MR STANDER: What happened to you in the kitchen?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Myself and China were taken.

MR STANDER: Do you know why you and China were taken away?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I know.

MR STANDER: Just for the record, who is China?  What is his real name?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: It is Teko Shadrack Oliphant.

MR STANDER: Do you know why you two were singled out from this group?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Yes, I know.

MR STANDER: Can you tell us the reason?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: We were the leaders of the 19 people.

MR STANDER: Mr Makhubalo, where did you get taken to?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I was taken to Mamome's office.  I do not know what happened to China.

MR STANDER: When to you got to the office of Mr Mamome, what happened there?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Chairperson, they tied my hands like this.  Do you want me to demonstrate.  I will come to the fore.

MR STANDER: If I may just explain for the record.  Mr Makhubalo demonstrated by sitting on a chair with his hands dangling backwards over the backrest.

CHAIRPERSON: His hands were following the line of the back of the chair, going down to the legs of the chair.

MR STANDER: This true yes, it is as the Chairman explained it.  Were your hands handcuffed behind the chair?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Who took part in this action of tying you to the chair with your hands behind the backrest?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: It is Mamome and Motsamai.

MR STANDER: What did Mr Mamome do?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: After tying me, he came with a tyre tube.

MR STANDER: Just tell us before we get there, what was Mr Motsamai's contribution to this?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: He was pressing my legs at the time when this guy was suffocating me.

MR STANDER: With this piece of the tubing, can you show us what he did with this inner tube?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Chairperson, this tube was like this and they would put it across my face and he would stand behind me and he would pull it, so that I suffocate.

MR STANDER: The witness is demonstrating by taking a sheet of paper, holding it against his face and showed how his head was pulled back, how the tube was gathered behind his head.  Who did this, what you have just demonstrated?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: It is Mamome who was standing behind me, pulling this rubber.

MR STANDER: Tell me, why did Mamome do this to you?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: He wanted me to be an informer.

MR STANDER: Were you prepared to become an informer?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: I was not prepared then and I am not prepared now, I will never, ever be prepared.

MR STANDER: How many times did he try to suffocate you like this?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Two to three times.

MR STANDER: These manacles that were put around your hands, did they leave marks on your hands?

OUPA MAKHUBALO: Chairperson, I was trying to demonstrate the torture of that day.  Even today I still have those marks.

MR STANDER: Could you demonstrate to us please.