Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-18

CHAIRPERSON: We will now proceed to hear the amnesty application of Jones Juda Mdluli, Amnesty Reference AM4100/96.
The Panel is constituted as would appear from the record.  Yes, Mr Ngubane, do you want to put yourself on record for the applicant?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  My name is E M Ngubane, I appear on behalf of the applicant, Mr Mdluli.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane.  And then the leader of evidence?

MR MAPOMA: I am Zuko Mapoma, the leader of evidence as before.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Yes Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Sir.  May I call the applicant Mr Mdluli?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: (sworn states)

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Mr Mdluli, is it correct that you were born in 1960 at a place known as Inanda?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And are you currently serving a sentence in prison as a result of a conviction?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And were you convicted of murder, attempted murder, robbery and you were sentenced to a term of imprisonment, correct?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And how many years did you receive as a result of that conviction and sentence?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: 18 years imprisonment.

MR NGUBANE: I see and do you recall when that was?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: In 1992.

MR NGUBANE: Prior to your conviction and sentence is it correct you were residing in the KwaMashu township?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: My house is in Inanda in a town Section A.

MR NGUBANE: So you were residing in Inanda, the new town?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: Yes that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Backs to KwaMashu township?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And now were you a member of any political party?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: I was an ANC supporter.

MR NGUBANE: I see.  You were not a paid up member or you were not a member at all of the ANC, you were merely a supporter, is that correct?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And you were also employed as a member of the KwaZulu Police, is that correct?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: What rank did you have?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: I was a lance sergeant.

MR NGUBANE: And for how long had you been a member of the police force before your conviction?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: I had been employed for about nine years.

MR NGUBANE: Alright.  Now you committed these various offences for which you were convicted.  Can you tell the Members of the Committee what motivated you to commit these offences?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: I was stationed at KwaMashu.  There were two conflicting organisations at KwaMashu, that is the ANC dominated in the township and outside KwaMashu there was Lindelani which was dominated by the IFP.  Those IFP members collaborated with the KwaZulu Police when they attacked the ANC members in the township particularly in Section K and in Induzu.

MR NGUBANE: May I just interrupt you a little bit?  If you speak can you take it step by step because there are people interpreting so that they can catch up with you?  Right, carry on from where you ended?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: This killing of ANC by IFP members and sympathisers and the police affected my family, friends and neighbours.  This affected me very deeply and I felt that I had a responsibility to do something to assist.  There were defence units that existed in the areas to protect the communities.  I knew those units and they were responsible for protecting the community, my friends, my family and the people of the section as well as M Section as well as the rest of the KwaMashu township.
	I saw it fit to render assistance and the first thing that I did was to give them ammunition.  After a while we acquired firearms which we used to assist them with although these were later confiscated by the police when we were arrested.

MR NGUBANE: When you say you were arrested and neighbours were affected, did you have any specific relatives that were killed by Inkatha?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: No.

MR NGUBANE: Now how were your relatives effected there?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: They were effected because the section of M would be attacked and that is where I had relatives.  My children would also be effected there as well as my neighbours.  They knew me and I had rendered some assistance to protect that family that housed my children.

MR NGUBANE: This background you are giving it as a motivation for you committing these crimes you are serving in respect of which you are serving a sentence, is that correct?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: I take it you planned to commit this robbery at Ntwetwe, is that correct?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: What did you hope to achieve by actually committing this robbery?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: We wanted to acquire firearms so that we would be able to assist different units who were protecting the township.  I have already mentioned that is KwaMashu and Ntuso.

MR NGUBANE: During your planning did you at any stage plan to commit murder or attempted murder?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: No, that was not planned.

MR NGUBANE: Right, I take it that you proceeded from wherever you were on the day of the robbery to Ntwetwe area, correct?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Were you driving any motor vehicles?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: We were in two vehicles, a BMW and a Toyota Corolla.

MR NGUBANE: Who were driving these motor vehicles?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: The BMW was driven by Dunsani Dlamini and the Toyota Corolla was driven by myself on the way to and on the return journey it was driven by James Lucky Hlengwa.

MR NGUBANE: And the people you have mentioned are the people that were convicted and sentenced together with you by the high court, they were accused number 3 and number 5 in that case?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Right, were you armed in any manner?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: Yes we were armed.

MR NGUBANE: You personally, how were you armed?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: I had my service pistol, a 7.65 as well as a 9 mm pistol which belonged to Constable Kamboli.

MR NGUBANE: Alright and did you know where you - well sorry, can I just rephrase it?  Did you discuss ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Ngubane, let's get a clear picture who was armed with what before you go on?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.  You have described how you were armed and were the other people also armed?  People in your company?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: I had my own firearm as well as Sangoni's firearm.  When we arrived at the scene I handed my firearm to Bheki who was a member of the defence unit.

MR NGUBANE: Bheki who?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: Bheki Dlamini.

MR NGUBANE: He was not one of the co-accused when you appeared before the high court?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: Yes he was not one of the accused.

MR NGUBANE: And how were the other members armed, members of your group?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: James Lucky Hlengwa had his 9 mm and Ukunuleko was also a member of the self defence unit, he had a 9 mm in his possession, that was his firearm.

MR NGUBANE: Was there anyone in your group who had a firearm known as HMC?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: Of the people who were at the scene, no one carried a big firearm.  I do not recall correctly which firearm Dumsani Dlamini had although he was not at the scene of the crime.

MR NGUBANE: But when he did the planning and after the robbery did anyone of you possess a firearm known as the HMC?

JONES JUDA MDLULI: On our way back we left three firearms at KwaMashu K section, there were two HMC's and one shotgun.  Dumsani Dlamini took one HMC to Hammersdale, that would have been used to assist defence units there because there were similar problems prevailing there.

MR NGUBANE: Okay, let's go back to the stage now when you were travelling and before you could do that, before you could commit robbery did you target any particular area where you were going to commit robbery?