Human Rights Violation Hearings — Empangeni — 1996-11-05

MRS GCABASHE: wanted to use it later and he went to the chief's father.  And the chief asked him as to what he was going to do with gum-tree.  He asked what were the white man doing with gum-tree.  He was going to do the very same thing that the white men were doing with the gum-tree and he went to the very same white people and they gave him permission that he should plant the gum-trees.  Then he called his brothers.  They planted the gum-trees but his brothers refused to help him and they went to other places, the surrounding areas, to build their houses there.  Then we started planting the gum-trees and certain other types of trees.  We were given seeds and we planted those trees.

MRS GCABASHE:  Okay, let's just try to concentrate on one aspect.  You said this started when your husband was still alive, as well as the chief's father.  The second thing we would like to clarify is your statement combines what happened to Ntombikanina's husband.  You remember relating to us that Ntombikanina Mthetwa - Simon had visited the Mthetwa family.  Then you said - when Ntombikanina spoke yesterday she said there was a policeman called Steyn.

WITNESS:   I do not know Steyn.  I think she knows a lot because she's educated but I am not educated or politically aware.

MRS GCABASHE:  (Question by Dr Mgojo not interpreted)

WITNESS:   Maybe that is correct.  If Steyn is Van Niekerk then it is possible that it's one and the same person that I'm talking about.

MRS GCABASHE:  (Further question by Dr Mgojo not interpreted)

WITNESS:   I want to see Steyn and I want to see if I'll forgive him.

MRS GCABASHE: /MRS GCABASHE

MRS GCABASHE: One other thing that I would like to find out.  Ntombikanina yesterday said when the police got to Mthetwa's place, there was some shooting that took place.

WITNESS:   I was not present.  I think she's the one who can elaborate on that.  I was not there.

MRS GCABASHE:  Was there ever a case that was opened with regard to your son's death?

WITNESS:   No, I never heard anything.

MRS GCABASHE:  But did you ever go to the court?

WITNESS:   Do you mean opening up a case?  No, I went to the court to try and get his documents that they had confiscated earlier on and they could not hand them over to me.  They denied that they had them in their possession.

MRS GCABASHE:  Did Simon have any children?

WITNESS:   He did.  He was not married but he had children with his girlfriend.  I've not seen the other one.  I've only seen the one that I'm maintaining.  At times I would take him to stay with me.

MRS GCABASHE:  Lastly, you said there's a certain young man or youth who was killed.  It's Musa Msweli.

WITNESS:   Musa Msweli is my son.

MRS GCABASHE:  In other words you lost two sons?

WITNESS:   That is correct.  He was shot by the police.  They shot him all over the body.  We couldn't look at him.  The driver who was with him told us the story.

MRS GCABASHE:  Maybe you can tell us briefly as to what led to his death.  Why was he killed?

WITNESS:   When I heard people talking, as well as the police, they said they were directed to kill everything, even chickens.  They killed my chickens.  They killed everything and at times they would come and look at my place and they would go away.  They were shooting at literally everything which was in  the house.  But what surprises me most is that it was the police who were doing this.  When Simon was still alive he used to fight with the Inkatha people and he used to kill them.  (Uproar in audience which is apparently admonished by Dr Mgojo who says, "Okay, okay, okay" followed by words which not interpreted)

MRS GCABASHE:  Mrs Msweli, when did Musa get killed?  Was it on the same day they were attacking you or the same day that Simon died?

WITNESS:   He died after Simon.  I think it was last year, '95.  He died in 1995.  He died during the Easter weekend.  It was between April and May but I don't remember quite well.

MRS GCABASHE:  They came to your place?

WITNESS:   Nobody came to my place.  Musa sent his girlfriend to come and ask for money because he wanted to go to his sister, that is the one who is sitting next to me.  I gave him R20,00 and told him that I was going to give him more on the coming Friday because he was no longer staying at home and the police used to frequent my place.   They would take children and they would abandon them very far away from home and they would have to foot it back home and when they get me at home they would point their guns at me.

MRS GCABASHE:  Is he the one you said he could not even talk?

WITNESS:   Musa was very sick.  He was suffering from asthma and one other thing that contributed was that he used to sleep in the forest.  Themba's girlfriend - I saw a car ... (Tape end mid-sentence.  Subsequent tape commences mid-sentence without overlap) ... hiding in the forest and it was a long time since I had seen him.  And Musa was with another male.  I think it was Khulekane.  They were together with Khulekane.  I saw them running  towards the forest and the car also went in.  This car went into Shabani's place.  I thought it was the police and I saw them coming out of the forest getting into the car because they had realised that it was their friend's car.  I saw him getting into the car and the car left.  That was the last time I saw him until some people came to my home and told me that Musa had been killed and I asked as to where he was.  They said just outside the forest.  And I asked as to how they knew that he was in that car.

MRS GCABASHE:  Did Musa die with the Mkwanyana boy?

WITNESS:   That is correct.  They died - three of them, as well as a boy from the Nguni family.

MRS GCABASHE: We thank you very much.  I shall hand over to the Chairperson.

MR LYSTER: Just a last question, Mrs Msweli.  Did the police who used to come to your house, the police from the stability unit, did they have - what sort of relationship did they have with the induna Mthiyani?

WITNESS:   The induna used to say to them we were ANC members and the ANC are enemies of the police or the police are enemies of the ANC.  And he would say that he did not want members of the ANC in his area.  He used to go to the police - the induna used to go to the police and report to them as to what was happening in that place.  And I knew that the induna was my enemy.  Even now, I still have to duck and dive when I see him.  They used to come every day at my place and I never got any rest.  We use to sleep in the forest with my children.  Then after Musa had died I told them to come and kill me as well and they came and they said they were very sorry  that they had killed Musa and I should not report them to the police.  I asked as to why they had killed him because he was the only one who was left now.  "Why did you kill him?"  I sat there ever since then because when I think of all these things, at times I fall out of the bed when I'm sleeping because I think a lot because I'm maintaining these children and they are being killed by people of the law.  It would be Inkatha as well as the police.  They are troubling us so.  They have violated my rights.  They have tormented me.  They've stripped off whatever rights I thought I had.  What is wrong with being an ANC member?  I tell them that I am a staunch ANC member because it does not discriminate.  It wants to make people equal.  I love ANC.

MRS GCABASHE: One other thing that we wanted to find out from you - that people who have been through what you went through - we did not ask you about your health, physically, emotionally and otherwise.  How did it affect you?

WITNESS:   I'm very sickly.  My health has changed as from the day that those things happened.  I do not have a house because my home was destroyed.  Some of my stock was killed and I lost seven cows.

MRS GCABASHE:  How do you feel physically?