Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1988-01-19

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, Visser on record.  I have a difficulty now because obviously haven't had an opportunity of - not being pre-warned, to have discussed this issue with Mr Kopie for whom I appear in relationship to this client, this witness.  I don't think I could sensibly cross-examine him right now Mr Chairman.
	I don't know whether you want to allow the other persons around to ask their questions perhaps, but I will need time to go through the record to see what Mr Ngo and Mr Motsamai might have said about Mr Kopie being present, in order to bring that to your attention if it's important.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman, we have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

ADV MEMANI: No questions Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS.

MR BRINK: No questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, Mr Visser wants to stand down.  I don't think he's going to ask a great many questions of this witness that will effect you or anybody.  Can we go on with another witness?

MR STANDER: Mr Chair, I must confess that I have not prepared any other testimony, I did not think that we would go through the evidence this quickly.  We might perhaps just fit another witness in if I could just quickly consult.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...[inaudible] the problem this morning, you've started at 10 o'clock and you had no problems with the question of your fees.

MR STANDER: I'm sorry, I did not follow.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I was under the impression that had we not had problems with regards to the question of your fees, you would have been able to start at 10 o'clock.  Did you anticipate that from 10 o'clock until now we would deal with only three or four witnesses?

MR STANDER: Yes Mr Chair.  If you look at the record, we were much longer with other witnesses in another sitting.  A certain witness took a whole day for example and on that basis I did not prepare.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...[inaudible] Mr Stander.

MR STANDER: I'm sorry, I did not hear what you said.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: It's a very, very wrong of running and preparing for a trial, especially a running trial, a trial which should go on for weeks.

MR STANDER: Mr Chair, I have told you, due to the fact that the previous witnesses took hours and hours, I did not think in my wildest dream that we would be able to fit in more than three witnesses in one day and if I made a mistake I apologise.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You made a mistake because you can't take the previous rate, regarding to how witnesses were dealt with and think that the whole trial from that point onwards will be run on the same basis and then prepare only a handful of witnesses for a whole day.

MR STANDER: Mr Chair, I asked you just to adjourn for a moment so that I can consult with some of the witnesses who are present in court.  It will take 10 minutes then we'll be back and then we can put the evidence before you.  With the greatest respect, can we continue on this basis?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]  Alright, we'll adjourn for a few minutes.  Please be as quick as you can.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR STANDER: She indicated that she will testify in Xhosa.

INTERPRETER: The witness is uttering something but the microphone is not on.

MR STANDER: Mr Chair, the witness is blind.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Can the witness please stand.

MS JACOBS: I can hear, thank you.

MR BRINK: Can you hear me Mrs Jacobs, can you hear me being translated into Xhosa?  Can you hear that?

MS JACOBS: Yes, I can hear Sir.

MR STANDER: Ms Jacobs, is it correct that you were also one of the 19 persons who tried to skip the country when you were arrested at Ladybrand?

MS JACOBS: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Is it also correct that after you were taken to the police station at Ladybrand, that you were handed over to the security police there?

MS JACOBS: That is correct.

MR STANDER: And also that you were transferred to Bloemfontein on the next day?

MS JACOBS: That is correct.

MR STANDER: At that stage you were still a student?

MS JACOBS: Yes, I was a student?

MS JACOBS: In which school were you?

MS JACOBS: That is Lekulong Secondary School.

MR STANDER: In which standard were you?

MS JACOBS: Standard eight Sir.

MR STANDER: What were you to go and do there in Maseru?

MS JACOBS: We were skipping the country.

MR STANDER: Why?

MS JACOBS: We were ...[inaudible] difficult conditions, we were arrested without doing anything.  You'd know that at any time the police would arrive, then they would do anything they like with you, so we were running away from government of apartheid.

MR STANDER: Alright.  After you were at the security branch at Ladybrand, you were transferred to Bloemfontein?

MS JACOBS: That is correct.

MR STANDER: What happened to you when you arrived in Bloemfontein?  Where were you taken?

MS JACOBS: We started at Ramkraal police station.  They took us to Park Road police station and we were not welcomed and afterwards we were taken to Fountain Street.  We found the members of the security police waiting for us.

MR STANDER: Tell me, was Mr Motsamai and Ngo known to you?  Did you know them at that stage?

MS JACOBS: Yes, I knew them very well.

MR STANDER: Were they members of the group who welcomed you there in Fountain Street?

MS JACOBS: There was no policemen who was not present, all of them were there.

MR STANDER: Where you taken?

MS JACOBS: When we arrived there we were taken through the stairways up to the 5th floor, that is the floor which had a kitchen, from there we were taken various rooms where we were interrogated.

MR STANDER: ...[inaudible]

MS JACOBS: I lost my sight in 1990 on the 21st of March which was the commemoration for Sharpeville shooting.

MR STANDER: Where were you taken from the kitchen?

MS JACOBS: All of us were taken to the kitchen, we were not able to all of us go in there.  Oupa Makubalo, Monisa Mtambu and others were not present in the kitchen. We were made to settle in the kitchen and then we were taken one by one from the kitchen by those police who were there.

MR STANDER: Where were you taken and by whom?

MS JACOBS: I was taken to Mr Erasmus's room.  I was called by Mr Tswametsi and then he called me to Mr Erasmus's office.

MR STANDER: What did you do there?

MS JACOBS: That is where I was questioned about who was responsible to influence us to go leave.  Then I was clapped and then they said Oupa, Monasi, were the ones who influenced us to skip the country, that is where I was slapped.

MR STANDER: Who slapped you?

MS JACOBS: All of them who were in that room.  When you arrive in that room they would cover your face with a tube.  In many instances when you are assaulted you would not know who took part in that and then sometimes you'd be dizzy but I know that Tswametsi and Motsamai and Erasmus were there.

MR STANDER: You do not know what each one of them individually did but you know they were in the office?

MS JACOBS: Yes, that is correct.  They were in the room but I would not know who did what because I was covered in the fact with a tube.

MR STANDER: Until what time did these assaults continue?

MS JACOBS: I'm not able to estimate the duration but it was some time because after they removed the tube they would continue with the interrogation.

MR STANDER: Till what time that day were you there at Fountain Street?

MS JACOBS: We took the whole day there.  We left there around 10 o'clock at night.  They took us then to the cells at Glen.

MR STANDER: Were you taken back to Fountain Street the next day?

MS JACOBS: We were only tortured that day and then from there we stayed at the cells.  We were only taken there when we were taken to court.

MR STANDER: You were only later released?

MS JACOBS: Yes, that is true, we were released and all of us went back home.

MR STANDER: Were you also a state witness?