Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-06

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should try and expedite your cross-examination.  Can you tell this man on the witness stand definitely, yes.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: (s.u.o)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Lowies?

MR LOWIES: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Nosenga, on your version, why was it that Mr Keswa, Victor Keswa managed to be released every time he was arrested?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know what to say, I did indicate to you that he did not spend a long time in prison.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, you must please answer the question.  The question is what is your opinion why did he manage ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, I think his opinion is irrelevant.  Why is his opinion relevant?  Because all he told us that as far as he knows, he didn't spend much time in jail.

MR LOWIES: I will rephrase that.  Is it your version that he was in collusion with the government and that that is the reason why he was able to be released every time?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said he was working with the Police here with the Vaal, I don't know what to say any more.

MR LOWIES: So according to you if he worked together with the Police, they will be able to help you to be released, instead of going to jail for long periods of time?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying the Police did not release me, I was sentenced for the Sebokeng offence, I am still in prison but Victor Keswa, (indistinct) did not spend a long time in prison.  I am still in prison.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, isn't it true that you handed yourself over to the Police voluntarily?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did indicate that yesterday, I did not volunteer myself to the Police, I was arrested by the Police at Parys and they took me to Vereeniging.

MR LOWIES: And you, Mr Nosenga, had a reason to confess to the drive-by shootings, the reason being you were afraid of your life?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was beaten up, I was being beaten up by the Police, they applied some electric shocks on me.

MR LOWIES: Is it correct that you could not return to your place of birth because you had problems with the comrades?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did say that I could not have gone back to Everton.  I had a quarrel with the ANC members.

MR LOWIES: Now, Hunter Ndlovu, is he still alive?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know, I am in prison, I have no idea whether he is still alive or not.

MR LOWIES: At the time when you handed yourself over, was he still alive?

CHAIRPERSON: He has repeatedly said he didn't hand himself over to the Police.

MR LOWIES: I rephrase.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: At the time when you were arrested, was he still alive?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, he was still alive.

MR LOWIES: Did he participate in any drive-by shootings that you know of?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did say he participated in the drive-by shootings.

MR LOWIES: Sorry Chair, I don't have a signal, I don't hear the translation.  Can I maybe get another ...

MR LAX: This little box right here up on the stand, is the transmitter, so if you could point these two glass or crystal things towards it, that will give you a better signal.

MR LOWIES: I am indebted.  Could that answer be repeated please Chair?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I was with Hunter Ndlovu when people were shot at Sebokeng.

MR LOWIES: Do you know whether Darkie Chonco had any part in the drive-by shootings?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Darkie was not present when people were shot in Sebokeng.  Darkie Chonco was not there.

MR LOWIES: Jack Mbhele, do you know whether he had any part in the drive-by shootings whether it be with you or with anybody else?  Do you know Mr Mbhele?  Jack Mbhele?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not get him quite well, I don't know him.  Maybe I have forgotten him.

MR LOWIES: Do you know Dondo Mbhele?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I know Dondo, but he was not there.  He was at Boipatong at the time.

MR LOWIES: Do you know of your knowledge if he was part of a drive-by shooting?  Did he take part in a drive-by shooting with anybody else where you were not present?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying Dondo was not present when we shot people at Sebokeng.  I don't know what to say any more.

MR LOWIES: Now when you were at the kwaMadala hostel, there was an aluminium wall, or there is still today an aluminium or an iron wall around the whole hostel, do you know of this wall?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I cannot recall, I don't want to tell a lie.  No, I don't want to tell a lie.

MR LOWIES: But you have been residing there since 1991 and you do not know about this wall?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was not there for looking precisely at the walls,  I don't know what you are trying to say.  Are you trying to say that I should know the wall?

MR LOWIES: Yes.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I do not recall the wall.  I did not go to the hostel to look at each and every corner of the hostel.  I had fled from the township, I was not there for the walls.  I had fled from the township.

MR LOWIES: Would you be able to show us the room which you occupied in the kwaMadala hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I occupied several rooms at the hostel.  I don't know how I can show you the rooms, but if you can take me there, definitely I will.

MR LOWIES: So you will be able to show us the rooms that you occupied, all of them?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: If I still remember, yes.  If I don't, I will not be in the position.

MR LOWIES: Now regarding the allegations against you that you were a spy, who made these allegations against you at the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know about that.  That is news to me, I only heard about it here at the TRC.  They have been talking about this spy thing, I don't know anything about it.  These people did not give you a correct statement.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, I would like you to think clearly.  Was there never ever in your life, allegations against you that you were spying on the people of kwaMadala, never, ever?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know anything about that.  They are saying I was an ANC spy.  If that is the case, I would not have survived my stay at the hostel.  I would have done something myself to kill them too, if I was a spy of the ANC, so that is nonsense.

MR LOWIES: According to you, you have no knowledge of any accusations levelled against you by the IFP for being a spy, you only heard it here at the hearing?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is nonsense.  I only heard about it here at the hearing and Buthelezi denied.

CHAIRPERSON: Just listen to the question and just answer the question.  This hearings will go much faster if you listen to the question and just answer the question.  What you are being asked is has anyone ever accused you of being a spy?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know anything.

MR LOWIES: Were the people not suspicious of you because of your ANC background?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR LOWIES: Didn't it take some doing and some assistance by Mtwana Zulu before you were fully accepted in the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.  I don't know about that.

MR LOWIES: Because your statement on page 18, Exhibit R, paragraph 2, the third sentence reads as follows, I maybe should start at the second sentence with your permission Chair
"... I was told that ANC killed IFP members, so we needed to defend ourselves.  At first they were suspicious of me because of my ANC background, but later they accepted me."
	You were referring here to the people in the hostel.  So you say this is completely untrue?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I arrived at the hostel in 1991.