Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-26

WOUTER J BASSON: Even if he was indirectly involved in actions which were aimed at assisting others in executing military actions, for example an allegation that Mr Evans moved quite frequently in African countries where he acted as a courier, where he was involved in military planning actions.  I cannot recall everything that there was, but that would render such a person a target.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but we'll come back to where we were 15 minutes ago, I put it to you that I understood the evidence of others to be to that effect, either you're personally involved in military activities or you're giving physical support to people who are involved in military activities and you said no, it goes beyond that, and I asked you to explain in what circumstances does it go beyond that.

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, if we return once again to Mr Evans, the ISSE(sic) was used with other front organisations to disrupt and lower the moral of the South African Defence Force.  Perhaps he wasn't involved in direct military actions against the Defence Force or the State, but due to the role that he played he was viewed as an enemy which had to be eliminated.

MR KAHANOVITZ: In other words, you're saying you did not have to be directly or indirectly involved in terrorism in order to end up on the CCB's list of people for elimination, targets for elimination, it wasn't essential.

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, one could say that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Is that your answer?

WOUTER J BASSON: Chairperson, I am trying to explain the broader spectrum to you, not only military but also morally, indirectly, whatever the case may be, where the death of such a person would have a tremendous affect positively on the interests of the State.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well what about - why not target Helen Suzman then?

WOUTER J BASSON: I cannot answer the question, Mr Chairperson, maybe she wasn't part of the CCB's projects.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, I'm just wanting to know as a hypothetical proposition, could she have ended up in the CCB's list of targets for elimination, would she have fitted the criteria?

WOUTER J BASSON: Mr Chairperson, I'm not qualified to give an answer, I never received any information that implicated her. I cannot give you an answer.

MR LAX: Can I just interpose.
	You see you're answering these questions on the basis that you didn't make any decisions, but we know that isn't so, we know that isn't so in this basis, that you and your colleagues proposed projects, you prepared feasibility studies and pre-feasibility studies, in those studies you suggested and recommended  certain kinds of conduct, correct?

WOUTER J BASSON: Correct, yes.

MR LAX: Now the question Mr Kahanovitz is asking you is, on what criteria did you decide what to suggest?  In other words, on what criteria did you base in your own mind, as a Co-ordinator, right?  On what basis did you decide that you were going to recommend this upwards, as an action that should be taken against A or B or C, whoever they might be?  You had to exercise a certain evaluative capacity, a certain discretion, a judgement.  Now what he's asking you is very simple, and it's not good to say "Well, I didn't make the decision", because you exercised a judgement and he wants to know on what basis did you exercise that judgement.

WOUTER J BASSON: If it can assist you, the role that the individual played, whether it's directly or indirectly in co-operation with the ANC and its front organisation in the interest of the State.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but I still don't understand why that would exclude someone like Prof Van Zyl Slabbert, Helen Suzman, or are you telling me conceivably the CCB might have also assassinated people of that ilk?

WOUTER J BASSON: I cannot answer the question, it is an unfair question.

MR LAX: Could I just ask this.  In all the projects that you worked on, where you were involved in proposals to do something to somebody, did you never choose the individuals as the individual targets, or were you given a list of names from which to choose targets?  How did it work?

WOUTER J BASSON: In most cases a list of names was given and there would already have been various forms of information available on these persons, that's why there were profiles on these persons, and the information was of such a nature that they would be listed as priority persons, based upon the relevant criteria.

MR LAX: And you only worked from those lists, you didn't choose other targets for yourself?

WOUTER J BASSON: No, that list was used in the specific case of Mr Evans, but I think that with regard to Mr Omar, I am not certain whether his name was on the list, but his case was taken from Mr van Zyl's level upwards.  I cannot recall whether his name was on the list.

MR LAX: Where did these lists come from?

WOUTER J BASSON: It was an intelligence document which I received from Derek, I forget the person's real name.  Chris Nel.

MR LAX: And do you know the source where that list had been compiled?

WOUTER J BASSON: I'm drawing an inference that it came from the military structure within Special Forces, or from the broader intelligence system within the South African Defence Force.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Can I just remind you about the evidence that you gave about Mr Evans.  You said you got this list of names, you said you were given this file that was, I think it was said 9 inches thick, you read through the file, you and Mr Burger, after reading through the file you went to motivate - I'm not saying you personally, but - no I think it was you personally, went to motivate to Mr Verster why Mr Evans should be targeted.  Remember your evidence?

WOUTER J BASSON: It was words to that effect, but I must mention that the information at our disposal would be presented and I'm afraid to use the word "pre-study" because you don't want to hear that, but at that stage Mr Verster would have said "Proceed and prepare a plan for elimination."

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but you had a reason for going to Mr Verster and say Mr - in effect you were saying to him "Mr Verster, we've been given this list of names, I'm recommending that we concentrate on this guy, 'cause I've read his file and it says A, B, C, D, E and F about him in his file.

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, I would motivate my reason for the presentation.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, and the reason you do that is because you are aware in your own mind that there are certain criteria that the person must fill before you're going to go off to Mr Verster and say ....(intervention)

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes, that is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Right.  So we're agreed that you in your own mind are aware of the existence of such broad criteria, and you've told us already what one set of criteria are and let's call it, for shorthand, terrorism or terrorism related activities.  The other category that I understand you've put forward is, if the person was an important figure in the anti-apartheid movement, we might have targeted such a person for elimination, irrespective of whether they had any links whatsoever to terrorism.

WOUTER J BASSON: It is possible.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, I don't want to know it it's "moontlik", I want to know, was that your understanding at the time?  In other words, you could read through the file, there's not a shred of information that links this person to military activities that notwithstanding, your understanding was that one could go off to Mr Verster and say "Mr Verster, I think we should do a "voorstudie" on this person.

WOUTER J BASSON: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, I want to go back to your evidence about the fact that you had to take all reasonable precautions to ensure that your intelligence was accurate and reliable, I'm assuming that answer that you gave, it doesn't matter whether we're talking about the elimination of a person or a bombing of a building.

WOUTER J BASSON: That is correct.