Special Hearings — Political Party Recalls — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: rom your submission it is not clear whether your acceptance of moral and political responsibility for some wrongs of the past include some taking of the serious responsibility for the rehabilitation needs of former supporters who are disclosing their actions before the TRC. I am talking about perpetrators on your side, and the same question is asked on the other side. 
I would have thought that in your submission you might have wanted to address the issue of the rehabilitation of perpetrators, their families also are being disrupted by the disclosures. They are also going through a very difficult time, and yet in your submission you don't even allude to it, suggesting perhaps, incorrectly on my part, a lack of caring for people who thought that they were engaging in those activities in support of their government.
The second issue is that as a result of your cooperation with the TRC the contents of the Kahn Committee deliberations were made available to us. It is evident through this documentation that large sums of money were transferred overseas to fund some of the secret projects which you now have recommended to be closed down. Are you, Sir, satisfied that these and possibly other funds that were transferred out of the country have been returned to their appropriate departments in South Africa? That's a question.
The fourth question is, what is your attitude, and I deliberately refer to you attitude because it's a reflection of your thinking, your attitude toward the imposition of a once-off reparation tax for purposes of rehabilitation and reconciliation on both sides? 
You speak very passionately, at the beginning of your introduction about the devastation that is attributed to apartheid policies. You talk about education, emotional etc, and yet there doesn't seem to be very much thinking that has gone toward addressing those issues, even alluding to the fact that there may be discussions. 
In fact the Committee on Rehabilitation and Reparation of the Truth Commission has issued a discussion document on reparation proposals that has been widely distributed throughout the country and we have not had any feedback from your party.

<UNKNOWN>: inally, part of our mandate concerns the recommendations for preventing future abuses. May I ask you to imagine in some reflective self-criticism with the benefit of hindsight, and I emphasise that, given what you know now, the number of abuses by security forces over a protracted period of time, what could have been done to ensure that such abuses did not happen? In other words what should the government today do, in your opinion, to ensure that such abuses do not ever occur again? 
How could your message that such activities were not ever authorised in that when they occur will not be tolerated, how could your message be better conveyed to security forces in the field?
Thank you.

MR DE KLERK: Thank you. Can I with regard to the last question say that on page 29 and 30 of my first submission I made 7 specific recommendations with regard to how can we prevent this in the future and what should our basic approach be. 
Let me assure the Commissioner that we are not without feelings on the issue of reparation. That we are not standing aside and that the shortness of our replies does not indicate a lack of interest. We reply from a specific position. I am not in government. I am the leader of the opposition. I don't initiate budgets. I am not in a position to take a decision which will result in the expenditure of government money. 
That is why we took the route in the reply to say, whereas opposition parties are notorious for making it difficult for governments to expend money and find reasons to criticise them, we would like in a constructive spirit to say we think governments should take the lead because they hold the reigns of power. And we would cooperate with them and we would like to sit down with them, it was in that spirit that we gave a short reply to a question. The question said, how much of this payment of this debt must be funded by the State? That is a decision which essentially lies with the governing party. They must develop the proposal. And in the order and the normal way in which such decisions are taken I made ourselves constructively, positively available to sit down with them with a commitment that we will, yes, cooperate wherever we can.
I think our attitude with regard to reparation is to a certain extent illustrated by the fact that we have supported the bill on special pensions from which many thousands of people who were fighting on the side of what is referred to as "the struggle", older than 35 years are now drawing a pension. I think the total cost to the country is about one billion rand. We supported that.
As to the issue of funds which were spent on secret projects overseas let me say that great care was taken in the last years of my presidency and to the best of my knowledge this still continues to ensure that each and every cent which can be recuperated is brought back to South Africa and it's put into the common treasury account and is made available for usage, to be expended to the benefit for a better life for all South Africans. So great trouble is taken under strict control of the Auditor General to make sure that no irregularities occur.
Then on the issue of that guidelines, a pamphlet has been issued or something, Mrs Camerer informs me that we have not yet had an opportunity, that we understand that we have just been invited to discuss the issue in detail, we will be looking at it carefully, she Chairs a special committee which we have on the TRC proceeds and just yesterday afternoon we had a discussion on the issue of reparation and I asked them to investigate and help us to develop a few guidelines and our possible reactions to possibilities in that regard. So I commit the National Party to be constructively involved in the reparation issue. I cannot just blankly say I will support a specific tax. We supported the tax which had to pay for the first free and democratic elections, and I would like to develop, rather on a multi-party basis, together with other parties the possibility of how we can earn money. 
But on taxes, the one idea which was mooted the day before yesterday here, I must say, if we are to classify South Africa's population again, I don't know who will decide who has to pay and who doesn't have to pay and who was guilty of what. Taxes are colour-blind, they are non discriminatory, they are classified throughout the world in terms of indirect tax where everybody pays the same and in terms of scale taxes, according to income where the richest pay the highest percentage and the poorest pay nothing. That is the inherent principle and within that framework we will also constructively look at that as a possible solution.
I also think that a very good starting point would be, although I can't see that raising enough, would be a major campaign to get people on a voluntary basis to contribute.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Sir thank you. Just as a follow-up, I realise you are tired but you've done it again. I've asked you a question about your party's commitment to the rehabilitation of the perpetrators most of whom fought in support of the apartheid state.

MR DE KLERK: Yes, thank you, I slipped on that one. I really think it's tied up with the issue of reparation. It's reparation of damage after the fact, after the conflict, and I fully agree that that is a category of people who can say that well, and their families specifically, here we have been negatively affected by everything which has happened and they should be dealt with in an even-handed manner in conjunction also with those who need reparation.