Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-04-11

MS DE KLERK: You said that you were unconscious after you had thrown the handgrenade, what happened after you had regained your consciousness?

LINDANE NTIYANE: I think I spent about a week in hospital, after which the police came to arrest me on this very same Dladla charge.

MS DE KLERK: And were you convicted in terms of the charge?

LINDANE NTIYANE: Yes.

MS DE KLERK: How long were you sentenced to imprisonment?

LINDANE NTIYANE: Eight years.

MS DE KLERK: Who represented you at the trial?

LINDANE NTIYANE: First of all I was represented by Ms Linda Zama, and later it was Adv George Webster.

MS DE KLERK: Who paid for your legal representation?

LINDANE NTIYANE: The ANC, I would assume, because it is the ANC that communicated with my family and offered this legal assistance.

MS DE KLERK: Did you tell the truth at your trial?

LINDANE NTIYANE: No.

MS DE KLERK: Why not?

LINDANE NTIYANE: First of all, I didn't like the idea of being sent to prison.

MS DE KLERK: Is there any other reason why you didn't tell the truth at your trial?

LINDANE NTIYANE: No other reasons.

MS DE KLERK: When I consulted with you, you spoke about not having faith in the judiciary, the judicial system of the time.

LINDANE NTIYANE: Yes, I did not have faith because the then legal system and justice system was flawed.

MS DE KLERK: How do you fell now about what you've done?

LINDANE NTIYANE: To give you a brief explanation, I would say the crime for which I was convicted is a crime for which I had served my sentence and I'm here before this Commission, asking for amnesty, so that I can also get the opportunity to ask for forgiveness from the family of Dladla, and others who may have been affected.  I feel bad about what I did, but the circumstances at the time prompted us to behave in the manner in which we did.

MS DE KLERK: Is there anything that you'd like to say personally to ...(indistinct) Dladla?

LINDANE NTIYANE: Yes.  I would say if I were to be granted an opportunity to meet with Dladla's family, sit down and have a chat with them, so that I can apologise to them directly.

MS DE KLERK: There's Mrs Dladla across from us and there's Regina Dladla, that's why I asked you if you'd like to say anything to them.  Is there anything you'd like to say specifically to the, or would you like to wait until after the hearing?

LINDANE NTIYANE: To Mr Dladla I would say as I have stated earlier on, that I know it is very, very unfortunate what they went through.  As I am saying I am very, very sorry and my apologies to the Dladla family.  I still maintain that I would still like to have another opportunity to talk to them, so that if possible a relationship can be established between myself and the Dladla family, because we belong in the same area.

MS DE KLERK: Mr Chairperson, that is the evidence for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, Ms de Klerk.  Ms Patel, any questions?

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.  I think there's just one aspect that I need to clarify with Mr and Mrs Dladla.  They indicated during - if you would just grant me a moment to check what it is.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MS PATEL: Thank you.  It appears that there is some confusion as to whether there was one explosion or two explosions.  Regina Dladla says that there might have been one or two explosions that she heard and that possibly one was detonated, one of the grenades was detonated by the policeman who appeared on the scene afterwards.  In light hereof, perhaps just to clarify, Sir, can you tell us how many handgrenades you took along with you?

LINDANE NTIYANE: I had only one, only one handgrenade.

MS PATEL: And Mr Msomi, who went with you, was he armed in any way?

LINDANE NTIYANE: Yes, he also had a handgrenade, but I'm not quite sure whether he had one or two, but the one that we used at the scene was the one in my possession.

MS PATEL: Given that you lost consciousness immediately after the explosion, you wouldn't be in a position to say whether he would have in fact have dropped another handgrenade on the scene, or can you - did you two have a discussion afterwards?  Can you clarify this for us?

LINDANE NTIYANE: We never discussed that, but as I am saying, I cannot testify to what happened after I lost consciousness.

MS PATEL: But before you lost consciousness there was only one handgrenade that was thrown and one explosion that you're aware of.

LINDANE NTIYANE: Yes.

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Patel.  Panel, any questions?

MR SIBANYONI: I've got no questions, Mr Chairperson.

ADV SIGODI: Mr Ntiyane, on page 6, which the typed version of the letter which you wrote to the TRC, to the Amnesty Committee, I think it was - I'm not sure, but there is a letter which you wrote to the Amnesty Committee, now in the typed version on page 6 you mentioned how you identified Mr Dladla's house as a target.  Now at the top of page 6 you said
"We saw the IFP members that had attacked us in the morning, at Mr Dladla's house.  One of the IFP leaders.  We decided to attack them at night."
Now what I want you to clarify is, in your evidence today you said that Mr Dladla was not an active person politically, and yet in this letter which you wrote to us you said he was an IFP leader and you also said when you identified his house as a target, it's because his house was at the borders of the area which was IFP dominant, and yet here you say you attacked it because you had seen some of the IFP members that had attacked you that morning.  Can you clarify that distinction for us?

LINDANE NTIYANE: I would say insofar as Mr Dladla's membership is concerned, I did indicate I think, earlier on, that we did not have any proof that he was indeed a member, a card-carrying member of the IFP.  Yes, I must agree that the report that we received in the morning when we arrived, was a report to the effect that there were some people who were seen gathering, either at Mr Dladla's household or thereabouts.  And another reason why we believed that he too was a member of the IFP ...

ADV SIGODI: So does it explain why you've described him here as a leader?

LINDANE NTIYANE: Yes, I would say so, because I have indicated that the report that we received was that there were many people gathering at his household, but we were not quite sure whether they were in the household on the premises or in the neighbourhood, and that is one other report that we received in the morning prior to our meeting.

ADV SIGODI: That's all, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms de Klerk, have you got any re-examination?

MS DE KLERK: Just one question, thank you.
	Mr Ntiyane, was it a culmination of a whole lot of things or a whole lot of reasons why you believed that Mr Dladla was a member of the IFP, or a supporter of the IFP?  Not one particular reason but a culmination of a whole lot of reasons, as you pointed out to us today.

LINDANE NTIYANE: In fact there were many reasons why we attacked, because we had lost numerous members on our side, but our attack ...(intervention)

MS DE KLERK: No, I'm not talking about the attack, I'm talking about the attack on Mr Dladla's home.  You've given us lots of reasons.  One reason is - as one of the learned Members of the Panel has pointed out, where you say that you believed that he was an IFP leader.  Another reason you've given us is the fact that he remained on the IFP stronghold and he didn't move over to the ANC stronghold.  So I'm saying to you now, was it a whole lot of reasons that led you to believe that Mr Dladla was a supporter or a member of the IFP?

LINDANE NTIYANE: I would say the reason is only one and that is the fact that he resided on the IFP part of the area and he was a member of the IFP, but we cannot particularly point out single events or reasons to say "these are the reason why we had to attack him".