Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

CHAIRPERSON: The question says, have you seen.  I also want to get some clarification, are you asking for me whether you should advise your client to answer or not to answer a question that says have you ever seen?

MR CILLIERS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead.

MR CILLIERS: Thank you for the opportunity.  The advice, I would also ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, it is privileged.

MR BASSON: Mr Chairperson, this document was shown to me during the first bail application in January or February 1997.  It is the first time that I saw that document.

MR VALLY: TRC26, have you seen that before?  Sorry, have you got that before you?  The heading is Payments of Coast Projects Fund Flow.  It is in Afrikaans and there is a number on there, which says 004732, have you seen that document before?

MR BASSON: I can't, according to my memory, no, I haven't seen this.

MR VALLY: Well, you were the Project Officer of Project Coast, weren't you?

MR BASSON: Chairperson, in this process 100 000 or more documents came, I had to look at all of them, so I cannot say that I have seen this document before.

MR VALLY: Well, you may say you are not sure, are you saying you are not sure or are you saying you did not see it?

MR BASSON: Can I repeat this slowly?  I said I cannot say with certainty if I have ever seen this document before.

MR VALLY: I understand.  So you can't be certain whether you saw it before or not?  Do you want more time to look at it?

MR CILLIERS: Is this the whole document, because our numbers are very clear.  If you can just give me an estimation of how many pages it contains?

MR VALLY: There are eight pages.  I am only going to ask you about page 4733 and page 4735.

MR BASSON: That is correct yes.

MR VALLY: What is your answer now, now that you have had more time to look at it?  Do you know this document?

MR BASSON: I do not recognise this document per se, but I do recognise some of the objectives which during the initial formulating of Project Coast, was put into place.

MR VALLY: Fine, let's talk about that because the second page is dealing with Objective Codes, is that a fair enough translation?

MR BASSON: That is close enough, yes.

MR VALLY: Look at 07, can you explain what it means?  It says  which I understand to be carrying out of Chemical and Biological Warfare operations, what does it mean?

MR BASSON: At that stage it had the implication that we were approached by several African countries to go and do certain verification operations for them, where there were accusations of the use of Chemical and Biological Warfare against people in Africa, then the international community often asked South Africa to go and do the investigations, because no-one else had the expertise or the capability to do that.
 Like you have seen in the classical fiasco which the English caused in Mozambique.  The use of chemical operations, is a verification operation.
 Now let me explain to you what a verification operation is, if there is an accusation that a chemical attack took place in a specific area, and an amount of bodies were found, then troops must be deployed to secure that area.
 After the area has been secured, specially equipped and trained troops who included Doctors must also be deployed in this area.  After they have been deployed firstly, the first priority is the treatment of the patients.  The second priority is the taking of samples in order to determine the origin or the type of the poison or organism and then also the analysing of certain weapons which might have been used in this way and therefore creating a relationship between the people and the weapon.
 After this relationship has been established ...

MR VALLY: I am so sorry Dr Basson, we get the idea.

MR BASSON: I have not finished Mr Chairman, may I continue?

MR VALLY: I appreciate what you are saying, you told me and I will summarise it for you, we are under time pressure, you are called in by other African countries to analyse what toxins were used, whatever, to decontaminate or whatever.

MR BASSON: No, that is not what I am saying.

MR VALLY: Can you please summarise it for us, we don't have all day.

MR BASSON: Chairperson, at this stage I am trying to explain what is meant with this verification operations, and the fact was that they were very complicated chemical operations in order to protect our own troops and to help the neighbouring countries with certain problems.
 This demanded a certain amount of training and equipment and capabilities, and as far as I know, ... (tape ends) ... and if you turn to page 475 and if you look under same code 07, and that says "Bedryf van CBO Ops", are these the people who were responsible for management of them or are these the actual projects themselves, what is that being referred to there?  Do you see what I am referring to?

MR BASSON: I see what you are referring to.

MR VALLY: It says 7/01 Chancellor, 7/02 Chris, 7/03 Koos, 7/04 Mealies, 7/05 Hekkies, 7/06 Barries, 7/07 Conventional, 7/08 Other.  Can you tell us what that is about?

MR BASSON: As far as I can remember, these are the different areas for which we gave code names so that the operational teams can distinguish between the different areas.

MR VALLY: Fine. Well let's go to Dr Immelman's affidavit.
 If you look at paragraph 17, he talks about the documents relating to TRC52, he refers to it by the number which is written thereof, B000010 and he goes on to 11 and 12. He says:-
"A sales list with these numbers was shown to me.  I recognised the items on the list and my handwriting which is on the side by the dates, thereon.
Also my handwriting on list 11 which I wrote brought back next to the note of Mamba Toxin.  The words JK which I wrote next to the dates 19th of March 1989 and 23rd of March 1989, I do not remember.  I think it was Johnny Koertzen.  The C next to the other dates, referred to Chris.  This was my note for the items which I gave to Chris or one of his co-workers.
The K next to the other names, referred to Koos.  Some of the items do not have my notes.  Koos is a white man whom I met in Dr Basson's office at the Defence Force's health offices, medical offices, SAMS I suppose.
I was introduced to Koos as Willem by Dr Basson.  He told me that Koos is a co-worker, he is a colleague.  Meetings between myself and Koos were organised through Dr Basson's secretary, Sarie".  
 In document 26, what is referred to as 7/02 Chris and 7/03 Chris, aren't these the same people that Dr Immelman is referring to?

MR BASSON: Chairperson, I have a problem in the sense that I am being asked to look at an undated document, TRC26 which was probably drawn up in the early 1980's.  If I must remind myself of how it happened, because later in time as the programme became more sophisticated, these objectives changed.
 Dr Immelman's affidavit with regard to a specific period in time, I think it is 1989, I didn't even read it, but these two connections, I cannot make them, and I must tell you that if there are any resemblances between Koos and Chris, then I want to know where is Mealie, Hekkies, Barries, Conventional and all the others?
 I am of the opinion that these two are not related, it is pure coincidence.  The dates of these documents are not known to me so I cannot bring them together.

MR VALLY: You are conversant with the document, with the affidavit of Dr Immelman?

MR BASSON: I read through it a while ago.

MR VALLY: Alright.  Let's look at the item relating to the Baboon foetus.
 Do you see the item on the 27th of July 1989, the bottom of TRC52, the last item?

MR BASSON: I do.