Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, because during those years I was involved in this struggle that was being fought by the South African Police and since certain members of our branch at that time applied for amnesty, since the opportunity had been offered by the State to apply for such amnesty, I then decided to apply for amnesty.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Sir, you know, I'm asking this particularly because of your testimony that you did nothing.  You simply stood on the side and watched.

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I was in command of the investigative team and I think that as such it was necessary for me to apply for amnesty.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Would I be correct in concluding or deducing that you made this application for this reason;  you identified yourself with the assault or the attack on Steve Biko, because you were involved in the investigative team.  Not because you identify yourself with the actual incident.

MR SNYMAN: I don't exactly understand what you mean by your question?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You see, you stood there.  You gave testimony that you did nothing.  You were just watching?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: My question is now;  why this application?

MR SNYMAN: Because I took part in the events of that morning.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And because you identify yourself with the incident in that office?

INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the response of the applicant.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was it a practice by the security police to conceal information, or correct information pertaining to detainees who die whilst in their custody?

MR SNYMAN: No, Your Honour.  This was done under the
instructions of our commanding officer.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It was done under the instruction of your commanding officer and can I accept it that it was not done only once in this instance?

MR SNYMAN: I could not comment on that, Your Honour, but that is possible.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is possible, yes.  If that is possible;  do you remember one of the detainees who died in custody, one George Botha, who died in 1977 as well?

MR SNYMAN: I recall the incident, Your Honour.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you recall your involvement in that incident as well in 1977?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, Your Honour.  I lived in a place that morning where Mr Botha was held in detention and it was my duties, with another person who drove with me, to pick him up every morning at the cells in Despatch and to bring him to the Sanlam Building.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And you recall that also in the case of Mr George Botha, he died as a result of a head injury, whilst in custody?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, he died as a result of head injuries during his detention.  On the 6th floor of the Sanlam Building, while we were unlocking the gate, the metal gate, he jumped over, off the stairs, landed on the ground and as a result he died.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Finally on this aspect.  Do you remember that an inquest was held, presided over by magistrate Mr J A Coetzee and the police were absolved.  Do you remember that?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, Your Honour.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was also in that inquest, was the message told, untruth as well, same as in Biko?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.  Those were the true facts.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I see.  Mr Chairman, that would be all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Booyens, re-examination?

MR BOOYENS: Only briefly on a few aspects, your Honour.
	Colonel, my learned friend, Mr Bizos had asked you questions with regard to the attitude of Col Goosen.  The deceased was shackled to the metal gate as you've illustrated and then you went to Col Goosen.  Is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Col Goosen then returned with you?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Col Goosen saw the deceased in that position, is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did he give any instructions that he should be untied or unshackled?  Did he give any instructions?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Did he indicate that the actions which he saw or that which he saw, was in any way not allowed?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you, your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?  Are you finished?  Thank you.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, thank you, your Honour.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

UNKNOWN: Mr Snyman, did you make any attempt to have the family of Mr Biko informed about the condition Mr Biko was in whilst he was in custody?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.  I presumed that after the matter was reported to the commanding officer and after I was instructed that I may withdraw, I presumed that he would do so?

UNKNOWN: Why did you presume that he would do so?

MR SNYMAN: I did not presume that he would do it.  I did, however, report the matter to him.  He then indicated very clearly to me that I should withdraw at that point and resume my normal activities.

UNKNOWN: Did you personally have any contact with Mr Biko
before the scuffle you have referred to?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, if I recall correctly, because this is many years ago, I would along with Col Goosen, prior to the interrogation, we went to the cell at Walmer.

UNKNOWN: I understand from your evidence that at some stage it was necessary for a number of members of the security police to guard Mr Biko whilst he was handcuffed and shackled.  Why was it necessary to have these members guarding a man who was handcuffed and shackled?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, it was the practice that guards would be present with any detainee.  There would be a police watch.

UNKNOWN: What were they doing there?  Did they just stand around and look at him?

MR SNYMAN: I would not be able to tell you what they were doing, but their instructions were to guard the man through the course of the night.

UNKNOWN: All in all, who would you say in your knowledge, killed Mr Biko?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, as we have described with regard to the scuffle that took place that morning, we would have to ascribe this that it would have been the possible consequence thereof.

UNKNOWN: Did you personally do anything that would have caused the injuries on the head of Mr Biko?  You personally, did
you do anything?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, what I did at that time was immediately to report the matter to my commanding officer.

UNKNOWN: Perhaps to conclude I can just put all my questions together.  Are you saying you are somehow and somewhat to blame for what happened to Mr Biko?  Is that the gist of your testimony?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

UNKNOWN: Can you explain that very briefly?

MR SNYMAN: What exactly would you like me to explain, your Honour?

UNKNOWN: How are you personally to be blamed for what happened to Mr Biko?

ADV SNYMAN: I would say that the fact that I took part or was a part of the investigating team.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Snyman.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Snyman, thank you very much.  You are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, may I suggest that this is an appropriate time for taking the long adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: It's only five minutes and there are some other matters that we would like to deal with in the chambers.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  We'll now adjourn and resume at 14:00 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS