Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-22

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, that happened during the last phase just before the decision was made.  Information was given to me to the effect that since there were these allegations that the security police had poisoned Mr Mthimkhulu, that he had sworn to take revenge, especially revenge against members of the security branch because those were the people who had dealings with him over the years.

MR VISSER: You've already told us that according to your information from reliable sources, weapons had been at the disposal of amongst others, Mr Mthimkhulu and Mr Madaka.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, there was that type of information.

MR VISSER: You also told the Committee yesterday that you were aware of certain attacks, armed attacks launched and directed at the bodyguards of Mr Buthalezi.

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is so.

MR VISSER: Now, this turning point which you've referred to as - did you discuss or regard this as important for purposes of your decision?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, I regarded it as very important because the further information which I got about this threat caused the police to believe and accept that Mr Mthimkhulu and Mr Madaka were able - as a result of their organisational back-up and also the liaison between them and the cadres, that they were actually able to execute this threat and that caused grave fear amongst our people.  	At that stage it was already the situation that policemen couldn't do their normal jobs, they could not perform their functions properly.

MR VISSER: Now, were there already recorded incidents of attacks on policemen or attacks on their property or families?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, there were.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, we have no further questions at this time.  That concludes the evidence in support of the application Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Erasmus, you've already told us yesterday that you gave an order that the deceased must be killed and that this happened after discussions between yourself and your two subordinates - now that's just and introductory remark.
	When this elimination of the deceased was raised and you gave the order, did you think that you were acting in accordance with the security and safety policy of the then Government - that it was in line with the security policy of the day?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is what I believed and the reason why I had that belief was because of all the statements that had been made and the pressure that there was to - or the pressure for stronger action to address the situation.

MR BOOYENS: There was also a structure in those days called security management system, can you recall that?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, it had already been in existence for quite some time.

MR BOOYENS: Now just briefly, as a point of departure it had the State Security Council?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: And then I think on a provincial level, there was an extension of this council in the form of the JMC - Joint Management System, is that correct?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct, yes.

MR BOOYENS: Now, if we can deal briefly with the JMC, the JMC was normally under the Chairmanship of the commanding officer of the defence force for that particular province or area, is that correct?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And these meetings were attended amongst others, by the police and members of the security branch, correct?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: These meetings were also attention by members of the uniform branch.

MR BOOYENS: I see, but also members of the security branch?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, security branch and uniform branch.

MR BOOYENS: As well as other State departments who could have a potential interest in matters discussed there?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, that is the case, the whole spectrum was represented.

MR BOOYENS: There were also other sub-committees under the JMC as Safety or Security Committees, Joint Information Centre, Joint Operational Centre, is that correct?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: I'd like you to answer the next question as briefly as possible, what was actually discussed at the JMC meetings - what was the important issue?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: The JMC meetings as I saw it, actually constituted a controlling body or mechanism and all information had to be reported to the JMC, anything that happened in a particular department had to be reported back to the JMC.  The JMC wanted to know what was happening in the various departments or what was not happening and why.

MR BOOYENS: And to be more specific, each and everything that happened within a particular department, are these things which could relate to the security situation in the country?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, and which could also have an impact on the economic field or whatever.

MR BOOYENS: At the JMC meetings - you attended these on behalf of the security branch?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And I believe that on occasion Mr van Rensburg also attended some of these Sub-Committee meetings?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, that's correct.  We always if possible, sent two members just to ensure continuity.

MR BOOYENS: The nature of what was discussed there and more specifically, relating to the people who were active - who were actively involved in trying to topple the security cart - to put it that way.  Was that discussed there?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: The internal security situation was discussed at the JIC - the Joint Information Centre, that was what was discussed there.

MR BOOYENS: And at these Sub-Committee meetings, were there any discussions or suggestions as to how to combat and counter the revolutionary onslaught and how to counter the people threatening the security situation in the country?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Would it be correct to say - and it is my instructions, that at these meetings a very strong message was relayed, namely that you people in the Eastern Cape should actually control the situation?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And the messages which came through, did that come from the politicians or the police headquarters?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: It came from the National Security Management System and was then followed down through the channels.

MR BOOYENS: If you're talking about National Security Management, are you talking about the Secretariat of the State Security Council?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: So the Secretariat was in fact the controlling body of the JMC system?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That's how I saw it yes, and that's how it appears on the diagram.

MR BOOYENS: I think it is a matter of public record that that was where many members of the Cabinet, State President and so forth, that is where they sat?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, that's correct, that's the State Security Council.

MR BOOYENS: Terms are bandied about, such as "elimination" or "hostile targets which had to be eliminated" or "leaders that had to be eliminated", are these terms familiar to you, were they used during discussions?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I can remember that they were used during discussions and the term "eliminate" was used.

MR BOOYENS: One is aware of the fact that some of the politicians who used theses terms, later alleged that eliminate meant something different to what perhaps the dictionary definition would be, but for you as an Afrikaans speaking person, what does it mean when you say a person has to be eliminated?  How would you understand it?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I can only interpret it in one way, that is to kill somebody.