Human Rights Violation Hearings — King William's Town — 1997-05-14

MR DORRINGTON: Just want to place on record, that it's difficult trying to prepare  for something of this nature, because unlike in a court case, one does not get a full docket of what is going to be said.  A lot of what has been said here to-day, is new to me and I think, new to Mr Kolela in the sense that this is the first time he's heard the evidence.  I haven't been able to consult in any regard as regards a lot of what has been said here this afternoon, but I have briefly spoken to Mr Kolela and he has indicated that he is prepared to answer the questions which may be forthcoming, because I don't believe I'd be in a position to answer those questions, not having had the opportunity to consult in that regard, but what
I,  if I  may make this  submission,  if I  could possibly  ask if questions could be asked of I, if I may make this submission, if I could possibly ask if questions could be asked of him, instead of us addressing you on the issues, other than what we've already placed on the statement.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think it would make any difference if we allowed you some time to, to consult and take this matter as a first matter after lunch ?.

MR DORRINGTON: Mr Chairman, from what I understand, my client is actually happy to answer the questions himself.

CHAIRPERSON: Straight away, ok.

MR DORRINGTON: So, I think that it would be better for him to answer the questions in the sense that he has first hand knowledge of the matters, but if  I may just ask him.  Mr Chairman, he's happy to answer the questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Thank you for your co-operation, Mr Dorrington.  We will require the, Mr Kolela to just read very quickly, the statement into the record and then we will raise questions on the, on the statement.

MR KOLELA: I'm an adult male, presently employed with the police and I'm stationed at Pe... no, Mr Dorrington here is a mistake somewhere.

MR DORRINGTON: There's no mistake.  Just say where you are stationed.  Sorry, that is an error.  Ok, just amend that.

MR KOLELA: I'm stationed at Zwelitsha at the present moment.

MR DORRINGTON: Ok, just tell them that.

MR KOLELA: I'm an adult male, presently employed with the police and I'm stationed at Zwelitsha.  I hold the rank of an Inspector.  I've read the allegation that have been against me by  Jeremiah Ndudula, and  wish  to respond as follows:     I do  not know  Mr Ndudula.  During the years 1984 and 1987, I was employed as a member of the Ciskei Police Force.  During the course of my employment with the Ciskei Police Force, we were involved in a normal police duties, which involve, amongst other things, at times, the search of certain homes and individuals.  I do not, I do not recall searching the home of Mr Ndudula.  I in fact do not know where his home is.  I have no knowledge of the arrest of Mr Ndudula in 1984 or allegedly cancelling his identity.  I further have no knowledge of him and various colleagues being transported to Mdanstane prison.  I also have no knowledge of charges of an illegal gathering being brought against Mr Ndudula.  As mentioned above, I do not know Mr Ndudula.  I also was never involved in assaulting him in any manner whatsoever at Tamarha Police Station nor anywhere else.  In respect to the allegation that in 1987 Mr Ndudula was arrested in Zwelitsha and electric shocks were administered to him.  I can only again state that I have absolutely no knowledge of this.  I was in no way involved in administering the, these electric shocks, nor torturing or beating him up at Tamarha Police Station and, or Zwelitsha Security  Police offices.  I have no knowledge of these assaults and was not involved in any manner whatsoever.  That is all I have to state.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Kolela.  Mr Ntsiki Sandi.

MR SANDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Kolela as a police who had a duty to interrogate people, what methods would you use in this process of interrogating people ?.

MR KOLELA: There's no other method, except for questioning a person. You would question a person for a long time.  He would sit in front of you and you would ask questions.  Nothing else was done.

MR SANDI: Did you hear anything else except what  you've  mentioned.  Did  you hear of whether the police used other methods of interrogating ?.

MR KOLELA: I did not see any other, but I would hear if the police intimidated someone and somebody would open a case and the police be arrested   This would not happen.

MR SANDI: Therefore, you never tortured anyone when you're interrogating ?.

MR KOLELA: No.

MR SANDI: Would this happen before you ?.

MR KOLELA: No, I've never seen this.

MR SANDI: Would you hear screams and cries when somebody, if  someone is being tortured when interrogated ?.

MR KOLELA: I've never heard of such.

MR SANDI: There's thousands of people who say that they've been tortured and ill-treated by the police.  Are you saying that they are fabricating ?

MR KOLELA: What I'm saying Sir, is that in my particular office that I worked in, there were not thousands of people who were tortured.

MR SANDI: If this would happen before you in your presence what would you do ?

MR KOLELA: If this would happen in my presence, the Commanding Officer in each office would be there.  If I go and report to the Commanding Officer and he does not anything about it, I can go to someone with even more authority.  It was my prerogative to report such cases.

MR SANDI: Thank you,  Mr Chairperson, even if I have more questions, because of the time, I will cut short.

CHAIRPERSON: Sir, we are in a Reconciliation Commission, we are not interrogating you as in a court of law.  We  need  reconciliation.  People were  intimidated  during  the Sebe regime.  As Mr Sandi said, there are a lot of people who have testified as to the behaviour and the torture the police conducted upon the people.  This was shocking.  As so many people testify like this and you say that you've never heard of such, then there's a discrepancy and I don't know if you are helping us in reconciliation, but I'd like to ask,  where were you on the incident of Nompendulo ?.

MR KOLELA: I'm here about the 1984 incident.  This man alludes to 1984 to 1987.  On the 16th of April 1984, I was in Alice and that is where I was employed.  From April to June, I was a student.  In June I was sent to Pretoria in Hammanskraal to be trained as a policeman.  I came back on the December after 6 months and I was sent to Zwelitsha Police Station, from 1985 to 1986.  From 1986 I was transferred to CID in Zwelitsha where investigations for robbery and theft were made.  When Xanasebo was kidnapped, I was one of the people who was deployed as a team to investigate this matter.  This man saying that I beat him up in 1984, I don't know anything about, even the 1987 incident, I don't know anything about.  I didn't know anything about the Security Branch or any political activities.  The Security Branch would do their own things that were hidden from us, therefore...

CHAIRPERSON: You never heard about the security police torturing people, even in the newspapers ?

MR KOLELA: Please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Therefore, you've never heard, even in conversation or through the media that the police went to Nompendulo and tortured some children?

MR KOLELA: I did hear about this.

CHAIRPERSON: So you thought they were being deceptive.

MR KOLELA: I'm not going to stand here on behalf of other police.  I'm here about an allegation, beating somebody at Tamarha in a cell, and somebody was tortured in an office.  I cannot answer and respond to your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Therefore, you can't help us towards the reconciliation ?.  What we're saying is that you and I should be helping the country toward reconciliation.