Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-07

ADV LOURENS: And how much was the amount of money?  Do you remember?  Was it about R2 000,00, is that correct?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV LOURENS: And can you in your own words then explain what, Mr Ndinisa said that you were in charge of the money.  What, how did you use the money for the others?  Could you explain to the Committee?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: We would use the money when we would camp with other Comrades in KTC, Wocester.  We would buy food as Comrades in these different places in the Western Cape and we would use the money for transport.

ADV LOURENS: Do you know of any, you know of the other things that were stolen such as the clothing and the video recorder?  Do you know what happened with that or if anybody else in your group took those things?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: No, because the way we were searching the house we were doing everything apart.  At the time we were running away we ran into different directions.  I told my colleagues that I left an agent case behind, but I have a jewellery box with me plus the R2 000,00.  At the same time we then went to Cape Town and we came back the following day.  I did not meet Philemon Maxam.  I met him while he was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just clear it up.  What is this case that he is talking about, an agent case?  What is that?

ADV LOURENS: Mr Chairman, it has been referred to in the evidence either as a briefcase or an agents case.  I think it is just a briefcase, a sort of satchel that a businessman would use.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV LOURENS: It is referred to by the interpreters as an agents case at some stage.  Now, when the gardener was shot were you anywhere nearby?  Where were you at that time and, or perhaps you could say if you were even aware at the time that the gardener was being shot.  Where were you at that stage?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: When the gardener was shot we already ran away.  I only saw when the domestic worker was shot.  I heard about that shooting of the gardener after it happened.  I did not see it.

ADV LOURENS: Now, at the time that the domestic worker, Mrs Foster, at the time she was shot how, were you nearby, were you with Mr Maxam, were you inside the house, were you outside the house?  Could you just briefly explain to the Committee?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: At the time when the domestic worker was shot I was together with Mr Maxam outside.  I grabbed the victim before she was shot, so I was nearby.

ADV LOURENS: Now what is, what was your attitude to the shooting?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: At the time of the shooting, on this day I became unconscious, because I did not expect that people would be shot.  It was not our aim and we did not want anybody to be killed.  We just wanted to get weapons so that we can defend ourselves and protect ourselves from what was happening in the township, but it happened that people were shot.  I cannot remember everything that happened that day, because I was dizzy as I did not expect it to happen.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But then Mr Ndinisa, Tisana, you had not observed the shooting of the gardener.  That is your evidence.  You only heard about this after it had happened.

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Yes, that is my evidence about the gardener.  I did not see him being shot.  The person I saw being shot was the domestic worker.

ADV LOURENS: Can I just ask you where you, are you saying when you say that you were dizzy or unconscious, because perhaps it is not the most accurate word, that you were taken by surprise, taken by surprise when that happened.  You were not expecting it to happen.

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Yes, that is correct ...

ADV LOURENS: Now, ...

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: ... because I was nearby when this woman was shot.

ADV LOURENS: Now, I just want to ...

JUDGE WILSON: Shocked would perhaps be a more ...

ADV LOURENS: Shocked.

ADV LOURENS: ... accurate reflection of what he is trying to tell us, I think.

ADV LOURENS: Yes Judge, I would agree with you.  Now, Mr Tisana it is so that during the struggle many raids were made on farmhouses and not only farmhouses to steal weapons and so on.  In your knowledge or to your knowledge if weapons are there are they also the only thing that would be taken or would it be appropriate to take other things, as you people did as well, to take money or something that can be converted into ammunition?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: What we planned was that anything we could find, anything that we can sell can be taken so that we can get weapons to defend ourselves, but our main aim, we were looking for weapons, but we did not find them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Tisana, is that what you understand as the Tambo text to mean, to authorise you to steal anything of value which can be exchanged for money in order to buy the necessary guns that you needed?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Yes, that is how I understood the Tambo text document.

ADV LOURENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I do not have any further questions for Mr Tisana.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADVOCATE LOURENS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steyn, Swart, sorry.

MR SWART: Thank you Mr Chairman.  	You said in your evidence earlier when you speaking about the Tambo text that the text authorised you to go and take weapons, but not to kill.  Is that correct?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: Yes, that is correct, because nothing was written down that we have to kill people.  This incident happened while we did not expect it.

MR SWART: So is it your evidence that the way these circumstances occurred, the events occurred that that was actually something which was not authorised in the text, your order was not to kill?

ADV LOURENS: Mr Chairman, if I might just interrupt here.  I do not think that was the import of the evidence that the instructions from the Tambo text were to kill.  I think the evidence was clear that it was unaccepted when it happened and their aim in going there was to, in fact, get firearms, but perhaps it is a matter for argument.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now, none of us have a copy of the Tambo text.  Loose language has been used to describe what it may have contained.

ADV LOURENS: Mr Chairman, I do have a copy.  I cannot swear though that this is the Tambo text.  It merely says in the article that I have, it is a well distributed speech within South Africa made by Oliver Tambo, which in fact I was going to refer to in my argument.  So perhaps then we can leave it till.

MR SWART: Well, my question is, in any event, did you think that these events were beyond what you understand the text to say, because you said that you thought the text said that you should not kill, you should take weapons?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: The way this happened we did not plan to kill people and the Tambo text document does not stipulate that people are to be killed.  As Max has already said he shot at these people so that they cannot identify us to the police.

MR SWART: Did you feel that anything else should be done to these people besides not killing them?  Did you want to incapacitate them or stop them in some other way?

MADODA STANFORD TISANA: The killing of these people just happened.  We did not plan to kill them, it just happened.  Nobody planned it.

MR SWART: Perhaps I can ask you to look at page 29 of the papers and then line small roman four.  That is the translation of your application and that says,
"People of the farm died because of the shooting.  I wanted them to be shocked so that they would not give, so they would not have any evidence".
I do not understand that sentence.  What did you intend should be done to these people?