Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-03

MR WILLS: Yes, that is what I am referring to, excuse the clumsy words, above a generator, through a closed door, you must concede this must have been a particularly brutal assault?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, if I remember correctly I said muted blows, I also said I heard shouts and it must be remembered I was, at going to the door, that is when I heard it.  I mean then I was in close proximity of the room and she was assaulted, I heard it, but I didn't see it.

CHAIRPERSON: But you cannot deny that they were severe blows?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I cannot comment on the severity thereof Mr Chairman, because I don't know how hard she was being hit, but I heard them.

MR LAX: I think what Mr Wills is putting to you, and if you listen carefully you will hear there are two components to the question, the context of the question is the door is closed, there is a generator on, there is questioning going on in the room, and over that noise, you hear the whacks, so it is saying these are, as I would interpret his questions, he is saying in that extraordinary context, you still hear the whacks, which means it must have been harder than usual for you to hear it over the sound?  You will concede that, I am sure?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Yes, yes, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Thank you.   You cannot remember how many whacks you heard?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: One?  Two, three, ten?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No, it was a couple, it was a few.

MR WILLS: A couple in your version, is two?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: That is the same, so you can remember hearing two whacks?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Yes Mr Chairman, possibly more than two.

MR WILLS: Possibly more than two?  In the few minutes that you were there?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: In those, if you take it as what, about five minutes between the first time and second time, going in.

MR WILLS: And I know it is difficult to ask, but can you try and a little bit more accurately describe what you referred to as shouts from the deceased?

CHAIRPERSON: He also referred to them, at one stage he referred to them as shouts and on another time as exclamations.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Loud exclamations.

MR WILLS: Yes, can you try and be a little bit more accurate?  I mean was it someone whaling, screaming, screeching or just staying stop that, I don't like this, I don't like this treatment rather loudly?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No, an exclamation (description of screaming)

CHAIRPERSON: Like a yell, just a noise?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: An exclamation, a loud exclamation if I can put it that way, that is the closest I can describe it.

MR WILLS: A loud exclamation made directly in response to being struck, ie a loud exclamation in response to pain?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct, in response to the blow, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Yes.  So it was hurting?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Well, it must have, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Did you not feel like stopping this assault?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, it was not in my hands to stop anything that was going on there, Col Taylor was a senior person and it was not our policy to get involved in interrogations and such by other Divisions, Units, that was not our task.

MR WILLS: So you didn't think of this?  You didn't think to stop it?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Are you applying for amnesty in respect of the murder of this woman?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: I want to try and, I want you to try and picture and apply your mind to what you saw when you peeped your head into the door.  You say you saw somebody whom you don't know, holding a black piece of plastic, was that your phrase?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, yes, it looked like, I thought it was a hose-pipe.

MR WILLS: Was it rigid or flexible?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Like a hose-pipe.

CHAIRPERSON: Like a hose-pipe.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That was my, it wouldn't be rigid, yes.

MR WILLS: You mean like a domestic hose-pipe as opposed to an irrigation black pipe?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman, a domestic type hose-pipe.

MR WILLS: So it was very flexible in other words, something that if you held the end out and you can look at what I am doing, if you held the end out, it wouldn't stick straight out, gravity would pull it down to the ground, is that what you are saying?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: It would possibly bend a bit, it wasn't as far as I can remember, a very long length, but it would bend down.

MR WILLS: If I was to hold it out at one end in my hand, what would be the curvature of the pipe?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman, it would start sagging at the end.

MR WILLS: So it was fairly rigid?

CHAIRPERSON: Could you give an indication of the length of the pipe that you saw, if you can just indicate with your hands.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: As far as I can remember, I am trying to recollect now the length, I would say it was about that long.

CHAIRPERSON: Indicating perhaps a metre, would you agree?

MR WILLS: I would agree with that.  And the thickness?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, about, you know, normal, not those thick hose-pipes, one gets two types of hose-pipes, you get the thin one and the thick one, the thinner one.  The garden hose-pipe.

MR LAX: Just point the circumference to us.

CHAIRPERSON: About the thickness of the microphone in front of you, the tube sticking out from the red globe towards your face?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LAX: That is about two centimetres.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what do you say about two centimetres diameter.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Was it tapered?

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe less than two centimetres, one and two three quarters.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I cannot remember if it was tapered.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I don't want to be unnecessarily obstructive, but is it really relevant to this hearing what the size and the shape of this hose-pipe was, or this instrument?

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, there has been evidence of one witness that, or somewhere in the statements, that it has been put to Mr Botha that he was also involved in hitting the deceased, and so I am trying to establish whether or not this, the description of this befits a second article, as opposed to a shambok.  I think it is fair in the circumstances.  You say you cannot remember if it was tapered?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chair.

MR WILLS: But your recollection must be that it wasn't tapered, because you wouldn't describe it as a hose-pipe otherwise?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I saw it as a hose-pipe, as a piece of hose-pipe.

MR WILLS: Yes.  And you say you didn't see this being used in any way, other than being held?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairperson.

MR WILLS: And you cannot remember who was holding it?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Were there any screams going on at the time you pointed your head around the, into the room?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman, as I said earlier, when I pointed my head, those present would look at me.

MR WILLS: Including the deceased?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I don't know what the deceased was doing.

MR WILLS: You didn't see her?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: My only recollection of her is sitting on the floor, on the right hand side of the room.

MR WILLS: Can you remember what she was wearing?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Did you only see her in that circumstances, didn't you see her outside at all while she was brought into the room?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: And did you see her after she had allegedly died?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: You didn't go into the room after being told that she was dead?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you go and take a look at the body, Mr Baker?