Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-13

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just place your hands again, where you say the grass would be.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That high.  You can see their heads.

CHAIRPERSON: You indicate with your two fingers across your chest, that that is how tall the grass is.  Could you stand up?   Mr Berger?

UNKNOWN: I would need Mr da Silva's ruler, it's perhaps a metre, I don't know.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, I'd estimate about four feet, in old language, 1.2 metres(?)

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, who can translate that into metres?

MR DA SILVA: 1.2 metres approximately, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Berger is not far off the ...(indistinct) then.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Baloyi, I understood your evidence then that while you were still standing in front of your house, you turned and you could see Metal Box, is that your evidence?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, up to this day I can still see Metal Box from my house.  I could see all the way to the robots.  I even saw it this morning.

MR DA SILVA: Yes.  Now while you were standing there, that is when you observed one Koyoco parked underneath a tree?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did not just stand in one position.  There was fighting going on, you would observe it momentarily and then move to another spot, but there was a Koyoco in front of that gate at Metal Box.  A smaller vehicle then later approached and then one from Amatola moved towards that spot and then a flare was fired and we could all see this.

MR DA SILVA: What I'm trying to establish, Mr Baloyi, is approximately where you were standing when you saw this vehicle, were you in the vicinity of your house or did you move away from your house to observe this vehicle?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I was standing inside my premises, on the yard.  Even if I'm standing at the front of the house, I can see.

MR DA SILVA: Right.  Then you saw this Koyoco.  Can you explain, if you can remember, was this Koyoco more-or-less in the middle of Metal Box, while you're looking towards Metal Box, or was it to the right of Metal Box or was it to the left of Metal Box?  Can you explain?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I will put it to you straight.  Metal Box is on the other side of the street and that open space where the vehicles were parked was just an open space with no grass, there was just a tree.  There were two Koyocos and one Nyala parked there.  The white people alighted from the vehicles and they shot a flare into the air.

MR DA SILVA: Now when you're saying "on the other side of the street", you're talking of the other side of Nobel Boulevard, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, that's the street, you know it.  That's also where you travelled.

MR DA SILVA: Now where this vehicle was standing underneath the tree, can you indicate whether it was more-or-less in the middle, to the left or to the right of Metal Box, or can't you say?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The Metal Box gate will be on the left and the open space on the right and then the vehicle was parked near that open space.  And on your way to Metal Box, you would travel along Nobel Boulevard, and these vehicles were parked just alongside there on an open space.

MR DA SILVA: You then said a white man got out of the Koyoco and shot a flare, could you see what he did to shoot the flare?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I would like you to listen to me very carefully, I do not want to repeat one thing over and over again.  We still have many issued to discuss here.  They alighted from the Koyocos, stood on the ground, took a gun and shot in the air.  There was a light.  I do not know what that light was.  You may be in a better position to explain what it was.  I just saw something that lit up the air.

MR DA SILVA: So I understand your evidence to be that you actually saw this person take a gun and point a gun in the air, which caused this light.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: He had the gun which was slung over his shoulder and he pointed it upwards and fired.

MR DA SILVA: Now can I ask you this, your house I understand from my colleagues who visited the house, and the garage is one building, is that correct?  It's not a garage separate from the main building.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Just hold on.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Baloyi, ...(intervention)

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Just wait.  I have the plan right here.  I have recently rebuilt my house.  I'm not talking about hearsay here, I'm just saying, telling you what I know.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now Mr Baloyi, your house as it stands now and that plan, does that indicate your house as it is now or as it was then?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: At that time.

MR DA SILVA: I see from this plan that if one looks straight at the house, that the house and the garage is one building, that they're actually connected, would you agree with that?  They've got a common wall ...(indistinct) stage.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It is connected, but the garage is at the back.

MR DA SILVA: When you say you got onto the roof of the garage, were you ever on the roof of the house when the, immediately after the attack or during the attack?  The question is; you say you got onto the roof of your garage, were you ever on the roof of the house?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I would have not have gotten on the roof of the house, I was on the garage rooftop and I was on my stomach watching over, but I did not spend a long time there, then I got off the roof.

MR DA SILVA: But I understand you to say you were never on the house, only on the garage, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is correct.

MR DA SILVA: When did you first consult with Ms Cambanis or Mr Berger or Mr Malindi, in this matter?  Did you consult last year at a stage?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I cannot recall.

MR DA SILVA: You must have seen them before these hearings started, did you see them before the hearings started?

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, we all know that the day these hearings started, we had to adjourn so that we could meet our clients.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, I'm just looking at the map.  What is the issue?

MR DA SILVA: I've asked the witness if he can indicate when was the first time he consulted with my legal friends, the legal team on the other side, my learned friends.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and Mr Berger you were saying?

UNKNOWN: And Mr da Silva said
"You must have consulted with Adv Berger and Ms Cambanis before these hearings started",
... and my learned friend was here and he would know that we had to take an adjournment so that we could meet our clients for the first time.  And Adv Malindi wasn't here even at that stage.

MR DA SILVA: Perhaps I can rephrase the question.
	Did you consult with any of my learned friends before August 1998?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, we did consult them, I think it was last year, although I cannot remember the date.

MR DA SILVA: Alright.  And you told them your version of the story?  You told them the version of what happened, you told them the version that you've told this Committee over the past three days, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They did not consult with just myself, they consulted with the other people.  I was not then able to tell the whole story.

MR DA SILVA: You see, Mr Baloyi, why I'm asking you these questions is that my learned friends filed a memorandum setting out what their case is.  They did so on the 8th of August 1998.  It's been handed in as Exhibit O, and in paragraph 9.8 they set out your version of what occurred.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you direct ...(indistinct) what paragraph? - 9 ...

MR DA SILVA: 9.8 at page 17, Exhibit O.
	I'm going to read to you what they say in that paragraph.  They start off by saying:
"Standing ..."
...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: If I can just ...  Chairperson, 9.8 doesn't purport to be Mr Baloyi's version, it's an instance of what Mr Baloyi would say, but it's definitely not his whole version.