Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-26

MR NGUBANE: Right.  You said he left the area and he lived somewhere.  Did you at some stage discover that he had defected and was an Inkatha member?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes, we did.

MR NGUBANE: Right.  How did you get to know that?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: We learnt of it after the death of our comrade, Sandile from one person, I think it was his wife.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, when you learnt that he was an Inkatha member, did you discover that he had participate in the attacks of the ANC people or any person of the ANC?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: When he left to stay in town, we did not have a problem with him.  We did not even know that he had defected to the IFP.
	Even that strange behaviour at the camp, was not taken into consideration at the time.  When Sandile died, he sent his wife to dig up cartridges from the bullets that had been used to kill Sandile.

MR NGUBANE: Right.  As a result of that, you realised that although he pretended to be a member of the Self Defence Unit, he was an Inkatha member?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes.  That is when we realised that he was an IFP member.

MR NGUBANE: Did you take any steps after that?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: What sort of steps?

MR NGUBANE: To approach him?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes.  We went to him and we discussed it with him, and we asked him about it and he admitted to us.

MR NGUBANE: Where did you approach him and where did you discuss with him?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: We were at Ixopo.

MR NGUBANE: At Ixopo, the new area wherein he was residing now, is that correct?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: How many were you that approached him in Ixopo?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: It was myself, Mzwandile, Msupa.

MR NGUBANE: Is that all?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: There was somebody else called Mgunezi Mkhize.

MR LAX: Sorry just repeat that last name, I didn't hear it properly, Mkhize, somebody Mkhize?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Mgunezi.

MR LAX: Thank you very much.

MR NGUBANE: When you approached him, was your purpose to interrogate him about what you have heard?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes, we would question him.

MR NGUBANE: Right.  And did you enquire about his membership of Inkatha?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes, we asked him if he was an IFP member and he said yes.

MR NGUBANE: Did you enquire about the attacks of Inkatha, whether he knew about him or whether he participated in them?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes, we did ask him.  He said he had not as yet received a card, but he was present when the attacks happened.

MR NGUBANE: Did he indicate to you whether there were any further attacks which he and Inkatha had planned to wage against you?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes, he did explain that the attacks would have been ongoing.

MR NGUBANE: Okay, where were you when you asked him about these?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: We were near my home, at Noqwega.

MR NGUBANE: You can tell us how, if you can tell us, how did it come about that he was eventually murdered?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: We assaulted him.  At that time Mgunezi had already left.  It was myself and the others that I have mentioned.  He tried to fight back, he fled, running to his grandmother's house.
	We went in there.

MR NGUBANE: Let's take it step by step.  You assaulted him and then Mgunezi ...

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: And he fought back.  Then he fled and we chased after him.  He went into the house and we went into the house.  My shoe had come off, so I remained in the house, whilst the other two went outside with him.

MR NGUBANE: When you assaulted him, were you armed?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes, we were armed.

MR NGUBANE: What sort of arm were you personally, carrying?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: I had a knife.

MR NGUBANE: The other members that were there, that is Mzwandile, Sandi, what were they carrying?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: One had a firearm, I cannot remember who.  Initially it was with Mzwandile, but I don't know just who had the firearm at that time.

MR NGUBANE: You were left behind because your shoe was off.  You had temporarily lost your shoe and the other gentlemen got out of the house with him, is that your evidence?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Did they continue assaulting him as they were moving out of the house and when they were outside the house?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: They dragged him out of the house.  When I got outside, he was laying down.  I enquired from them what had happened.
	I said is he dead, and they said yes, he is already dead.  I also went close to him and I stabbed him with my knife.

MR NGUBANE: Whereabout did you stab him?  Whereabout did you stab him?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: I don't remember but it was around the chest.

MR NGUBANE: How many times did you stab him?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Just once.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you stab him?  You said when you got out he was already laying down, and they said he was dead.  Why did you stab him?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: I wanted to ensure that he was dead, because he would have been a danger to us in the community.

MR NGUBANE: Are you saying that when you killed this man, your intention was to eliminate a danger because this man was working for Inkatha and he was involved in further plans to attack the SDU's, is that correct?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Now, you stabbed him.  What happened then after you had stabbed him?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: I would not know, because thereafter we left.

MR NGUBANE: Is it correct that you were not arrested for this incident?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes, I was not arrested.

MR NGUBANE: As you are sitting here, are you feeling any remorse about what you did?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Have you tried to contact the family members to express your remorse?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: No.  It was not easy for me to approach them, although I felt that I wanted to do that.  Even though I wished that I could, I could not just go straight to them.  That is why I decided to actually apply for amnesty.

MR NGUBANE: Were you scared to approach them as an individual, is that what you are saying?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: But if you were to be guaranteed police protection to approach them and express your feelings about the incident, would you do that?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes, very much so.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane.  Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MS THABETE: Yes Mr Chairman.  Mr Cele, can you explain again, maybe let me start here, you say you were with Mr Msupa Hlengwa and Mzwandile Nzimandi when you went to the deceased, is that true?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: That is correct.

MS THABETE: Before you actually went there, did you sit down and discuss the fact that you want to go to him?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes, we discussed it.

MS THABETE: When you were discussing, what was your intention, what intention did you have of going there?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: It was to discover or to learn the truth from the deceased.

MS THABETE: What information did you have before you went to ask him what it was you wanted to ascertain from him?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: The information we had regarded the death of Sandile, that he was involved in that incident.

MS THABETE: Would it be correct for me to say your intentions of going there was to ask him whether he was also involved in the killing of Sandile Biyase?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETE: And there were no other intentions?

TULANI FILEMON MOSES CELE: No, the situation actually became tenser when we actually came and approached him, and he admitted the truth to us.