Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

GEN NEETHLING: I agree, Mr Chairman.  Thank you for clearing this matter up.  In any case, as far as I see this document, this is very beautiful, the same category as this one that was TRC 14, as far I'm concerned I do not deny that I have had a very close relationship with Dr Basson, and I will tell you exactly, I was with him four times overseas.  We've had many hours on the aeroplane, which becomes very uncomfortable, we've had many hours together after-hours at symposia, and at certain instances where we were negotiating technology which is for the good of this country and which was for the good of the South African Police.  That's why I was involved.  Four times I went with him overseas, and people can easily, very easily deduct that when the Chief of the Defence Force gives me, he asked me to please accompany Dr Basson to give them cover so that they think that he's possibly a medical man, he's involved with the Police, that was his cover, and I was not afraid, because everybody knew me, they knew exactly that I was a Policeman.  I did not have to hide it, and that was a cover and I was proud to be involved in this project.  Where we went to Zurich, to Germany, to London to get equipment for us which we needed because there was a war going in Angola where there were chemicals used and we were standing there, we had nothing to protect us, nothing, and we got experts from overseas to testify to that.  We went to the highest authority known to Europe, the United Nations advisor on chemical warfare which had seen atrocities in Iran, he was in Angola.  We talked to him in Brussels, in Kent at least, I'm sorry, and I was intimately involved ...(intervention)

NORMAN ARENDSE: Chairperson, can Dr Neethling stop, unless there's any value on that evidence?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm afraid I was going to begin to say so.  You know, I think the essence of your agreement with the Ministry is not so much only on proliferation, it is also to the extent that third parties with which this Government has got to relations, unless the matter is absolutely ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: From my own perspective I would respect the position, except for what issues, he's the expert in Belgium, we're talking about Dr Hendriks.

GEN NEETHLING: That's correct.

MR VALLY: Well, with respect, Gen Neethling, we've had Mr Charles van Remoortrere here, who you do know,

GEN NEETHLING: Yes.

MR VALLY: And Mr van Remoortrere has confirmed that this Dr Hendriks has been convicted of fraud in Belgium, as well as academic fraud.

GEN NEETHLING: Yes, that's quite correct.  Let me tell you, and ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Sorry, is he your expert you're talking about?

GEN NEETHLING: I'm talking about not only Dr Hendriks, I'm talking about him being in Angola.  I'm saying that the two international symposia that we attended was sponsored by the United Nations.  He was used as an expert by the United Nations in the Iran/Iraq conflict.  He was projected to the world as one of the biggest experts on chemical warfare and that's how we knew him.

MR VALLY: Whether he had been convicted of fraud and academic fraud?

GEN NEETHLING: Wait a minute, whether he in his department afterwards, after we met him in 1984, first time, I would not know.  I saw him three times in my life, 1984 and 1986 and again in 1990, when he was here, walking through Angola dust, and checking the chemicals that were used there.  He visited my laboratory, and he went off.  That's how I know him, and I'm saying to you I have no idea what atrocities he did as far as academic forgery is concerned, and I have no idea why United Nations would use him as an expert the way they did.

MR VALLY: I'm just worried about time, Mr Chair, but I am really being forced into a situation where I have to wait for the answers.  I have lots of questions left, Mr Chair, and I need your direction, I can confine it to just a few if you think under pressure so I know which ones to focus one, or I can ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We had an arrangement for quarter past, we're well past quarter past.

MR VALLY: Alright, in that situation I will ask two more questions.  Firstly, Dr Koekemoer said he came to you personally because he was concerned about an order he got to manufacture ecstasy and instead of assuring him or advising him that this is illegal as a Policeman, or a pseudo Policeman, I can tell you that you should not be doing so, or I will take it up for you, you instead talked about better chemical methods to make the ecstasy.  But that the understood that you approved of them manufacturing ecstasy.  How do you respond to this?

GEN NEETHLING: I respond as follows, sir.  Dr Koekemoer came to me at a party at a mutual friend who turned 40, naughty 40, which I attended.  I attended that party and I was retired from the South African Police.  That was after August 1992, and he came to me and said, what do I think of producing ecstasy for use of a mood-changer.  I said I think it can work, I think it's a fantastic idea, but I've go a problem, I think the molecule is unstable.  That's all I said.  If he infers from that that I gave consent for something I couldn't give consent, he is dreaming, maybe he's under the influence of ecstasy himself.  I have never had ecstasy in my laboratory while I was working there.  I have never seen one microgram of ecstasy while I was in the laboratories active, never.  I believe they are now running ecstasy everyday, but that's not the point, the point is I tell you, that I would not have given him consent the way he's saying that I say, go ahead, Koekies, carry on and make the thing.  I said to him, Koekies, that molecule in my opinion, whatever it's worth, I'm a retired pseudo Policeman, I do not think will make it.

CHAIRPERSON: In all fairness to the witness, he said Generaal, you were more interested in the chemistry than the science and I think from what you say, that ...(intervention)

GEN NEETHLING: That's correct, that's what I said.  Yes, I said to him, the chemistry tells me this molecule will not make it.

CHAIRPERSON: But I accept that you know the inference he seemed to be drawing that far from you discouraging from doing something which you thought might be abused if it fell into the wrong hands, far less effective if it is manufactured by people at that level.  You didn't seem to concern yourself with that side of chemistry, because you were interested in the science.

GEN NEETHLING: No, not at all, that's correct.  I was not concerned at all about possibilities.  I said to him, it's worthwhile trying because it's such good mood changer, it's a fantastic mood changer.  If I can get this into a grenade, I will have no nonsense with nobody, you know what I mean, I'll break up all these little tits and tats between man and woman, just like that.  The Police would have no jobs, I'm telling you.  So, I'm telling you the bloody molecule is ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: I have questions left which I want to get in please.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Vally.  Order please, order.

MR VALLY: What better form of a crowd control could you have than to get the most rebellious element of the society you were in, black youth, addicted to mandrax?

GEN NEETHLING: What better crowd control could I have?

MR VALLY: That's correct.

GEN NEETHLING: I would like to have no rebellious blacks, I would have the best crowd control.

MR VALLY: So, you would have no problems with creating a situation if it was possible, to create an addiction to mandrax amongst the youth in the townships?