Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-03

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: how do I feel about the landmine operations?

MR WAGENER: Yes, or campaign.

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: The campaign?

MR WAGENER: Yes.

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Well for me I would say it was a well done job, as far as I'm concerned.  I don't know other people how do they look at it because we carried out the order and the order was accomplished as we were ordered.

MR WAGENER: But we know that the real military targets were not primarily hit, but civilian targets were hit.  We know that today.  Do you still say it was a job well done?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: I still stand by that, yes, it was a job well done because the area that we were told to go and work is the area that was designated by our Commanders.

MR WAGENER: Chairman, I've got no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wagener.  Mr de Beer, any questions?

MR DE BEER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR DE BEER: I would just like to add, if you would have known that your landmine is going to kill a civilian, would you still have planted that landmine at that specific spot, or road or field?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Well, if I'd known earlier on that we was going to kill civilians, I don't think we would have carried out that kind of operation, but we went there with a clear mind that we were attacking a military target.

MR DE BEER: Even if you did not achieve that military target and you killed far more civilians than military personnel, do you still feel that you achieved your military objective?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Well it's not for me really to say - okay let me put it this way.  As you said our late President, Oliver Tambo, at the end of the day was not happy about the land campaign, it was for them to make that kind of a decision up there but we on the ground, I still believe that it was a well done job, though civilians died and if we knew that we were attacking civilians, we wouldn't have done that, we would not hurt civilians purposely.

MR DE BEER: You said that - or there were some questions raised with regard to the landmine campaign in general and I believe that the command structure at that stage, the NEC, informed you that they were not satisfied that enough reconnaissance was carried out in the event of more civilians being killed than military personnel, so would you say that they were actually not being truthful when they said that this mission was a failure?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Come again.

MR DE BEER: When you command structure said that they had their doubts of the effectiveness of this operation in planting these landmines, would you say that they were not being truthful in saying that this mission as such was a failure.

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: Well I would believe that it was a failure because later landmine operations ceased to take place.

MR DE BEER: One last question, are you proud that you actually achieved your objectives in planting the landmines, or are you still proud that you actually killed women and children and other civilians in the act of planting landmines?

MTHETHELELI ZEPHANIA MNCUBE: If I can put it this way, I have no regrets at all for things that I did in good faith.  I don't know if I answer your question.

MR DE BEER: No more questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DE BEER

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any re-examination Mr Koopedi?

MR KOOPEDI: None, thank you Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman, any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: No questions from me Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mncube, thank you, that concludes your testimony.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR KOOPEDI: And Chairperson, that will in fact conclude all the evidence we intend to tender in respect of Mr Mncube and I should go on to say that concludes the evidence of the applicants, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Wagener, what is the situation?  Are you going to be calling any witnesses?

MR WAGENER: Chairman, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: To testify or to make a statement?

MR WAGENER: My client wishes to testify.  My estimation thereof is about 30 minutes to 45 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr de Beer?

MR DE BEER: As far as I know and as far as I have discussed with my client, he's not going to testify, but I would like, Mr Chairperson, to take into account that I will discuss this matter with him this evening and in the event that he will be willing to come through and testify, I would just like the Commission to take that into account, that time span.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Wagener, do you want to continue now?

MR WAGENER: Chairman, I'm not sure what your programme looks like tomorrow.  I'm slightly in your hands.  I would prefer to commence tomorrow morning, even if it is somewhat earlier than today, but we are in your hands.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well I sincerely hope it would be somewhat earlier than today, seeing we only started after lunch.  It would seem in any even that we won't be finishing this matter tomorrow because there's have to be argument as well and Mr de Beer might - but would it be possible to start at 9 o'clock in the morning because we'd like to finish.  We have another matter on the roll which we would like to get on straight away after that and hopefully, if we don't finish it, make large inroads into that.  	Yes, I think then if we could start at half past eight then, if -  that would be good.  I'd then just like to say that we'll adjourn now to continue with the hearing at half past eight in the morning and when we will be commencing with the evidence of the witness to be called by Mr Wagener and I'd just like to apologise to the people who stayed later than they expected, but we started late, we just wanted to get as far as possible in this matter.  Thank you.
	We'll now adjourn until half past eight tomorrow.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS