Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-22

CHAIRPERSON: You must brush up on your history Mr Phosa.

MR PHOSA: I do realise I should have done a bit of my history when I came - before coming here.  The witness will be very helpful, he knows.
	Who was the State President who was also sitting at these Security State Councils?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: During that time I think it was P W Botha, Mr Chairman.

MR PHOSA: Was he Mr Botha, to your knowledge, aware of this need to eliminate people like Mr Mthimkhulu?

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't that already been answered?  He told us as I have noted: "I think the State President was aware of the need to remove revolutionaries".

MR PHOSA: If my questions are inappropriate Mr Chairperson, if I could just be allowed to ask - I have not been here before and I will pose some questions and I'm not pressurising the witness.  If I can get an answer, it might even say - not: "I think".
	I'm asking a question from this witness, is he saying - not: "I think", is he saying for instance: "President Botha by virtue of attending these meetings where the word elimination was used, was aware of that need".  It ought to be a very simple question for him to answer, was he aware?

CHAIRPERSON: He wasn't at those meetings.  The witness has not said he attended meetings of the State Security Council.

MR PHOSA: Maybe I'll have to go about it the long way I was trying to avoid.  Now you mentioned evidence with regard to these State Security Councils, what are you saying about them because I want to ask you to understand it clearly.  What are you saying about them, what is their relevance to all this application of yours?

CHAIRPERSON: He was asked to give a history of the security set-up in those days.  He explained that it was the Security Management System based on the State Security Council which came down to the Joint Management Council at provincial level.  And that is the body he attended and spoke about, the rest was pure history to tell us how the ....[intervention]

MR PHOSA: Now Mr Chairperson, I'm having a bit of a difficulty.  When evidence has been tendered, I have no reason why I shouldn't ask about it ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] precisely what was asked, if you had listened you would have heard Mr Visser say: "Will you tell us what the organisation was", so he told us.  You are now asking him: "why did he tell us".

MR PHOSA: Mr Chairperson, I really have great difficulty, let me lay out my problems.  As I understand in this matter here, one does not object to leading questions, it's been done and ...[inaudible] has been brought in.  One doesn't object because it's assumed as I've just come in to it, there seems to be an understanding that it is in the best interest of the proceedings that technical ...[inaudible] not be raised ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: And ...[inaudible] a limited right of cross-examination.  Mr Phosa,  you will remember you have a limited right of cross-examination, not an unlimited right.

MR PHOSA: I was still busy explaining myself Mr Chairperson, and I'm having difficulty coming across to you in the first place.  I'm just saying that when those issues were raised and he was asked to say about a,b,c, how do you say: "what is the relevance of that"?  Nobody else did so I assumed that I would be allowed also to ask now what the relevance of that was because it couldn't have ...[inaudible] gratuity, there must have been a reason why it has been given, you can't waste your court's - the Commission's time.  There must be a reason why it's given.  If the Committee knows why, I don't.  And I'm now asking on behalf of those who have asked me to come here - and I'm sure a number of others, what the relevance of these State Security Councils are.  And if the Committee knows I can ask for an answer, then I won't ask the question but I do seriously want to know.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Chairman, I think we have to try and make some progress on this.  As I understand your question Mr Phosa, to the witness, the question is: "Is it part of his testimony before this Committee that the person who was a State President at the time, must have known about the agenda or the programme to eliminate those who were opponents of the State".  Is that your question to the witness?

MR PHOSA: That was the question that was overruled as being on my part, not having listened carefully, so that was really my question but I tried now to start from scratch in asking him. That is really the question, why - is that his evidence?

ADV SANDI: Were you happy with his explanation?  He says: "Because I found this happening during the time with all the meetings by different structures".  This is the impression he had.

MR PHOSA: Now we've been wasting so much in seconds that I don't remember what answer that was.  All I had wanted to ask, and I'm sure if you - if the Committee says: "that's the answer".  All I want to know is, is the answer according to him, that President Botha - and I deliberately chose him, was aware of the fact that there were elimination's?  In other words he attended those ...[inaudible] of elimination's, he attended meetings where it was said there had to be elimination's, is that his evidence?

ADV SANDI: Do you want to answer that Mr Erasmus, is it your answer to the question, that the person who was the State President surely he must have known that the idea was to kill those who were opposing the State?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I said Mr Chairman, I was under the impression that the politicians of the day knew about this.  In that dispensation every department had a Minister and the Minister if he knew, he could have told for example, the State President.  What the lines of communications were, I do not know.

MR PHOSA: I'll tell you why I'm delivering this question Mr Erasmus, I do not want later to work on a false premise, so I am now from now on going to be working on the basis that whether or not the State President, Mr Botha knew is another matter but as far as you're concerned, you believed he knew.  Can I work on that premise now, from now on?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: You can work on that basis, yes.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr PHOSA, maybe just to ensure that we do not come back to this.
	Mr Erasmus, when you say Mr Botha, the State President, every time knew of must have known about this killing ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't say that, he said: "I thought he knew".

ADV SANDI: If you say: "You thought he knew", would you be surprised if he says he didn't know about that?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Chairman, I would not be surprised if a politician says anything and I believe and I'm convinced that if I asked anybody, he would deny that but I am here to tell the Committee what I know.

MR PHOSA: That is a ...[inaudible] for saying, "If he said so", you would say: "He lies like politicians lie"?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Chairperson, you don't want me to say that they're telling the truth always, I can't say that the people are always lying but what I am saying is that anybody would deny such a question.

MR PHOSA: Now to take it a step further, on the understanding - please, understand at all times, on the understanding that it was your belief not only now but then that the politicians were talking about - knew  the need for elimination, they need to eliminate - on that understanding, so when the decision was made to eliminate Mr Mthimkhulu and his colleague Mr Madaka, you did not expect that that decision would be disapproved of by the politicians, did you?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: This operation was a covert one and what I mean by covert - and perhaps this will become clearer later, is that it was performed in such a way that there should be no comeback or no tracks back to the security branch or to anybody.