Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-19

CHAIRPERSON: Morning ladies and gentlemen.  Before we start this morning, I'd kindly request us all to stand as a mark of respect for the late Chief Justice, Ismail Mohammed, who passed away over the weekend.  He was a great man, whose demise constitutes a huge loss, not only for the judiciary of this country, but for the country as a whole.
HEARING RISES AS A MARK OF RESPECT

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, as the senior person present, I believe that I'm speaking on behalf of all our colleagues here, that we associate ourselves with the remarks made by you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Bizos.  We'll proceed with the hearing now, and I believe that the next applicant who will be testifying will be Gen Webb.  Is that correct, Mr du Plessis?

MR H DU PLESSIS: That's correct, Chairperson.

EDWARD WEBB: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis.

MR H DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: The application of Gen Webb is in bundle A, is it?  Page 195 etcetera.

MR H DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Chair.
	General, you were appointed as the Commanding General of Special Forces from 1 January 1989, is that correct?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR H DU PLESSIS: The CCB was a sub-section of Special Forces, is that correct?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR H DU PLESSIS: If you look at the total set-up of Special Forces, the CCB, was it a small or a big section of that?  Special Forces.

EDWARD WEBB: It was a smaller sub-section.

MR H DU PLESSIS: There were two projects for which you're applying for amnesty, correct?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR H DU PLESSIS: The first project, if I can call it that, was the baboon foetus placed at Archbishop Tutu's house, is that correct?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR H DU PLESSIS: Do you confirm the contents of that application as true and correct?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR H DU PLESSIS: The second project for which you apply for amnesty, concerns the bomb explosion at the Early Learning Centre in Athlone, is that correct?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

MR H DU PLESSIS: Can you just read that application into the record?
GEN WEBB
"On the 30th of August 1989, certain information came to my knowledge from one, Col Joe Verster, Managing Director of the CCB ..."
...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, I know that it is done, but I submit that it doesn't mean that it is correctly done.  That a witness who has to rely on his memory in giving evidence in relation to a transaction, cannot be given the same credence if he reads a document out than if he speaks out of memory.  And where we have a person who is legally represented, who with the assistance of a legal representative has produced a document, his credibility cannot be as easily tested if he merely reads a document out, particularly as it was not made at the time such as we had in relation to Mr van Zyl, who made the statement in 1990, when the matters were still fresh in his memory, but when a document is produced specially for this purpose, for him to merely read out his statement is not the best way of assessing his credibility.  I would suggest with the greatest respect, that you should direct that he should give viva voce evidence on what he remembers about the things that he says happened, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis.

MR H DU PLESSIS: Chair, all the previous applicants read in their applications and Mr Bizos didn't object to our modus operandi then.  If he has an objection, then perhaps my client can just confirm his application and then he can be cross-examined.

CHAIRPERSON: From what document is he reading, Mr du Plessis?

MR H DU PLESSIS: From his amnesty application which forms part of the record.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that on page ...

MR H DU PLESSIS: Page 195 of bundle A.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm just trying to find the place.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Chairman, maybe I can assist.  General Webb's application has been broken into two portions and is in two separate bundles for reasons unknown.  The one concerning the ape foetus is in bundle A and the one concerning the Early Learning Centre, is in bundle D.  The document the witness was referring to now appears at bundle D, page 19.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Kahanovitz.  Yes, well if we have it before us, do you confirm the contents of this statement, General?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You're not making any amendments to it?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then perhaps, Mr du Plessis, we have it before us, perhaps you could just lead the General on the incidents.

MR H DU PLESSIS: Chair, you will recall at the beginning of these proceedings, Mr Bizos was the one who asked that these things be read into the record for purposes of the members of the public who attend the hearing, who don't have the knowledge of what is contained in the bundles, but I have no objection.

MR H DU PLESSIS: Do you confirm ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please slow down.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chair.

MR H DU PLESSIS: Is there anything you wish to add?

MR LAX: Sorry, could you just bear in mind, the translator's just asked us whether you could slow down a little bit please.

EDWARD WEBB: Chair, I request you and the Committee, with respect, to, in respect of the amnesty applications of my previous subordinates which have been heard here and will still be heard, to please not consider this in isolation, but also to bear in mind that some of our previous enemies and operators also launched attacks on their own initiatives.  Unfortunately it was an unconventional struggle and in such a struggle there isn't always control right down to the lowest levels as a result probably of too much enthusiasm or impatience, even a weakening of discipline, a feeling of revenge which could lead to action on own initiative.  Thank you.

MR H DU PLESSIS: Is that you wish to add?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, that's all, thank you.

MR H DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: General, what role - if you could just tell us in your own words, did you play in the ELC, Early Learning Centre incident?

EDWARD WEBB: I approved the project, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that at an in-house meeting?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, between myself and the Managing Director.

CHAIRPERSON: That's Mr Verster.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: At that in-house meeting, could you just explain what occurred at the in-house meeting, what was the procedure, were documents presented or was it a casual sort of discussion in a hotel room somewhere?  If you could just explain the circumstances.

EDWARD WEBB: I met Col Verster at an office from which he operated and there was no written submission, it was an oral submission which was made, it was on the 30th of August and according to the submission certain elements were busy planning acts of terror in the Cape and they were to meet on the 31st.  In other words, we had to act as soon as possible against these elements.

CHAIRPERSON: So approximately how many days prior to the 31st did this take place?

EDWARD WEBB: It took place on the 30th, the day before the 31st.  That is why I also described it in my amnesty application as an occasional target, because it's something which we had a submission on the 30th and the people who were supposed to meet on the 31st were involved and that's why we had to decide whether we're going to act or not.

CHAIRPERSON: And at that meeting, what sort of depth did one go into?  Were you just told what was going to happen or were you given a plan, or was there a budget?