Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-14

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes I think that can be accepted.  I think there's only about three differences and that's minor differences.  One is already on record I think, is if the family, the rest of the family were allowed to leave or escape.  And the other one was this fight, was it actually started by the deceased or started by the mob.  And I almost can't think of a third one.  So regarding the broad events, ja, there is no ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Well I think it's common they've been killed.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: What's not common cause is the reason for the killing.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Isn't that the real dispute in the whole thing?

MR VAN RENSBURG: That is true.

ADV DE JAGER: And you've heard the evidence of the other people about the killing.  In broad would he agree with that?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes I agree.

ADV DE JAGER: Is there anything you want to add to what they've already told us about the facts of the killing?

JOHN MASITHULELA: I don't have something which I want to add but I can just say or explain what I did on the very same day.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't want to add anything to what they say, not yet?  Can you think of anything you want to add?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Ja, there is something new which I can add, but it is something which I heard about it.  What I want to add is when the previous speaker, Nemakhavani, saying that he doesn't know the executive members of Myco, that is Mahvunga Youth Congress, I was told about them and they were known in the whole nation who they were.

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't, but that's what you want to add, that you knew the identities of those people?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes I know them.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.  Now tell us what you did there at Edward's house.

JOHN MASITHULELA: The executive members - myself on the killing of the deceased I got into the house on the ...(indistinct) side using - getting into the yard of the deceased.  I reached the garage of the car.  I saw a car which was burning on the other side of it.  I took a tyre which was close by.  I made it catch fire and then go and burn the car which was already burning.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes, that's all.

CHAIRPERSON: You saw the stone throwing?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes I saw them.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you with it, do you associate with it?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes I associate myself with that.

CHAIRPERSON: You knew that the deceased was going to die?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Could you please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: You were aware that the deceased was going to die?

JOHN MASITHULELA: No I wasn't aware.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see them burning?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Of the house?

CHAIRPERSON: Of the deceased.

JOHN MASITHULELA: No I didn't see him burning.

CHAIRPERSON: But you knew that there was going to be an attack on him?

JOHN MASITHULELA: No I was not aware that he is going to be attacked.  I only know that they were going to talk with the deceased so that the deceased could leave the Mahvunga Village.

CHAIRPERSON: You saw the stone throwing?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes I saw them.

CHAIRPERSON: So who were the stones being directed at?

JOHN MASITHULELA: The stones were, most of them were directed to the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: By a lot of people, not so?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes, by many people.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you throw stones?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes I did.

CHAIRPERSON: And you also directed it at the deceased?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes I directed them.

CHAIRPERSON: At that time you must have realised that he would die as a result of being thrown by the - that he would die as a result of the stone throwing, not so?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Ja it's quite clear that if one is being stoned at by stones could possibly die.

CHAIRPERSON: You associated yourself because you also threw stones at him?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then the house was also burning?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know how it got burnt, how it started burning?

JOHN MASITHULELA: I cannot explain that clearly because where I was, the direction I was in there was fire which was burning in the car, but later I saw heavy smoke of fire on the other side of the house.  I don't know how the fire started.

CHAIRPERSON: When you saw that smoke coming from the house did you associate yourself with that burning?

JOHN MASITHULELA: No I don't associate myself.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you agree with the others who had started that fire in that house?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes I agreed that others have started that fire, because if I was with them then I associated myself with them.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what I am getting at.  Is that correct?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Could you please repeat your question.

ADV DE JAGER: You in fact helped burning the car and you would have helped burning the house if you had the opportunity.  You helped burning the car, you assisted in burning the car, and you would have helped them burning the house if you had the opportunity, is that right?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes I burnt the car and assisted in the burning of the house simply because I was a member of people who were burning.  Then I was supporting what they were doing.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was Petrus and Edward targeted in this way?

JOHN MASITHULELA: As far as I am concerned ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Let's deal with Petrus first - okay, nevermind deal with it as you want.

JOHN MASITHULELA: As I was growing there at Mahvunga Village I heard rumours that Petrus Mahvunga is also a witch.  On the part of the deceased as I was growing I heard people saying that the deceased is also participating in witchcraft.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you believe that?

JOHN MASITHULELA: That they are witches?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, those rumours, you believed that?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes I believed that those people are witches.

CHAIRPERSON: Good.  Now you told us in the beginning of your testimony that you wanted a political change in Venda.  Venda must go back to Pretoria.  Did I understand you correctly?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes it's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how did what you did to Petrus and to Edward, how was that connected with your political wish that Venda should be reincorporated with South Africa?

JOHN MASITHULELA: The link is in this way.  The leaders of those days of the previous government of the independence of Venda they were people who were leading this country in unacceptable way because there was violences here, there were no more schools; workers were no longer going to work.  As I looked I found that that person, because he's participating in witchcraft I say that because the leaders of the past were linked with the medical doctors and witches to find medicine so that they could have power or protect their powers by then.

CHAIRPERSON: You say medical doctors, what medical doctors?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Traditional doctors or healers.

CHAIRPERSON: Now we've had evidence which linked traditional healers with traditional murders etc, is that what you are referring to?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Could you please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: You referred to certain people as traditional healers.  Earlier in this hearing we've heard that traditional healers were directly responsible for ritual murders.

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Are the traditional healers the same people that you are referring to that was described as having been the cause of ritual murders?  That's what I am trying to - are you talking about the same people?

JOHN MASITHULELA: Yes but I think they are the people who are causing the root of this matter, because in various countries when they find the people who are committing ritual murders they first go to the traditional doctors to find out who was the witch.