Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-09-14

MR PATEL: At present and as I have a final instruction, the present position is - or rather when I commenced with cross-examination, the instruction was to oppose on all bases, on whatever basis I could, and versions were given to me, etc, etc.
	Now, there has been this meeting and people have talked.  There has been following the road to reconciliation, some people have expressed the view that they might be prepared to forgive and not oppose the application.  Others haven't made up their minds yet.
	Still others, they don't want to oppose, but they would like to know a little bit about what happened in this particular incident.  I can continue the cross-examination, but at present if I do so, it will be on the full opposition.  If it transpires at a later stage and I understand that my Attorney has indicated to them the time limits involved, and a cut off time of eleven o'clock, 11:30 have been given to the applicants, to come back with the final instruction, it appears to me to be the best way to deal with this, if I just stop at this present point in time, such that I don't enter into cross-examination which is going to take up the Committee's time as well as everybody else unnecessarily.
	We are just looking to save some time, we are looking at the end of the day at what the purpose of this hearing is for, and if it can be resolved in a manner where people actually talk to each other, rather than through legal representatives, in the manner that we are used to, it will serve the purpose better.
	I cannot take this any further.

CHAIRPERSON: Does anybody else have any objection?

MR STUART: Mr Chairman, might I just place on record, my position is similar to Mr Hewitt.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand it and I am sure the position is similar to Mr Hewitt.  If anything comes up in Mr Patel's later questioning, which requires to be dealt with by you, then certainly you will be given an opportunity for that.

MR STUART: As you please Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will then proceed on the basis suggested by Mr Patel in the hope that that will curtail the length of the proceedings.  Mr Hewitt, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR HEWITT: No Mr Chairman, as I indicated, on the evidence so far, we contempt ourselves simply with placing on record that Mr M.Z. Khumalo denies ever having furnished or supplied this applicant with a firearm, as he testified.
	But we do not wish at this stage, to put any questions to him, arising out of the evidence that has emerged so far, subject to our rights later on if necessary to put further questions, depending on further evidence.

MR HEWITT: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hewitt.  Mr Black?

MR BLACK: Thank you Mr Chairman.  As you are aware, my role is a very limited one, I just represent Mr Khaba, Bongani
Khaba who has been implicated to some extent.  So I propose just to clarify some issues in accordance with my instructions.  I will be very brief.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Black, you may proceed.

MR BLACK: Mr Hlongwane, could you have a look at page 159 of Volume 1 of the bundle and if you have a look at paragraph 71 of that bundle, where you talk about the incidents at Davel and which took place at Mayor Mkhonza's house.
	With reference to that paragraph, if you would then look at I understand it is Exhibit 1, it is the Afrikaans statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit E1.

MR BLACK: E1, it is the statement in Afrikaans which you made to the Police.  Have you got that, I know that you can't read Afrikaans.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it was made to the Attorney General.

MR BLACK: Sorry, yes, to the Attorney General.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, I have it.

MR BLACK: We heard that it would emerge now from the reading of that statement, there were two sort of incidents or attacks which took place in Davel on the houses, and I would suggest to you that reading paragraph 9 of Exhibit E1, seems to refer to the contents largely of paragraph 71.
	My reason for putting this - referring you to these statements or two paragraphs is the following, in paragraph 9, you implicate Mr Bongani Khaba as one of the leaders of the five groups and in paragraph 71 of page 159, you also refer to him in a sense, particularly on page 160, you seem to say that he had a home made firearm.
	Now, my instructions are and you can either confirm or not, that Mr Khaba was in fact at Davel and that he was at Mr, Mayor, this Mayor Mkhonza's house, but that he at no time joined the group that went out on the attack, attacks or raids of the various houses as you had described.
	He remained behind at the Mayor's house as one of the guards, as the Commander or leader at Davel at the time.  Can you confirm that this is correct, or incorrect?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry before you proceed Mr Hlongwane, I must just remind you, you are still under your former oath.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: (still under oath)

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes sir, I remember.

MR BLACK: What I am trying to put to you, what I have just put to you, do you confirm that Mr Bongani Khaba remained behind and guarded the property of Mr Mkhonza when these raids were carried out, as referred to in paragraph 71?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, I quoted you saying that I made a mistake when I said Bongani got out.  I said among the five groups and after the fifth one had been abandoned, we had four groups, and I said to Bongani he must stay behind and guard Mkhonza's place so that when we go out and attack, people mustn't get back to Mkhonza's place to attack the area.
	Therefore Bongani and Mkhonza have to remain behind in the yard, and he was not armed with a home made firearm, he was armed with Mkhonza's firearm which was a shotgun.

MR BLACK: And for what it is worth to the best of your knowledge, was that shotgun a legitimately issued weapon?  Mr Mkhonza was entitled to be in possession of that weapon, it was licensed?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, he had two licensed firearms.  It was a 38 shot and a palm gun.

MR BLACK: There is only very briefly, just one other aspect.  Refer to paragraph 87 on page 165.  Do I understand this correctly that it would appear that you were advised by parties or a party that Philani had returned this 9 mm (indistinct) to Bongani and that you had no personal knowledge as to whether or not this had in fact taken place?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No, in my evidence yesterday I said the firearm with which I was arrested in Davel, I went back to Davel to ask for my firearm from Philani and he said the gun has been given to Bongani.

MR BLACK: Okay.  Then on page 166, I think you have cleared it up yesterday in your evidence, when you said that you weren't in Ermelo at the time that ...

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Can't hear, the what?

CHAIRPERSON: The applicant is indicating that he is not hearing the interpretation.  Sorry, it is my mistake, he is indicating that he doesn't have page 166 in his papers.

MR BLACK: That is correct yes.  Sorry Mr Hlongwane, I remember you mentioned that yesterday, but the point I just want to make here ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, you can just let the - I think he has been given a copy, thank you.

MR BLACK: Thank you, I am indebted to my learned friend.  This deals really where you make an allegation that - paragraph 91 essentially, that Mr Khaba's mother was killed and we heard a gunshot and one of our members, Obet Hlabati, was shot in the chest.
	What is contained in 91 and 92, is really as I understand it, not within your personal knowledge as well, you were not in Ermelo at the time.  This is something that you were told?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.  I apologise, I said I made a mistake.  I am not asking for amnesty with regards to the death of Bongani's mother, because I wasn't present at the time.