Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-03-25

ADV PRIOR: Yes.  I gather from the record that Mr Mbandazayo did not cross-examine Ms Tsemane.  Due to the nature of the allegations that she was making - if you will recall Mr Chairman we then adjourned her evidence, so without further ado, may I invite Ms Tsemane ...(intervention)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, just before - at the time she's being called also I would like to know from the Leader of Evidence whether one of the people who was mentioned also, with the exception of Mr Tsembeye, Mr Hatting was mentioned a certain Chief Pitso which he alleged that, was he also informed because it was some of the people who were mentioned who also had a soccer team.

ADV PRIOR: I can inform the Committee that I don't have any information or correspondence that this person Pitso was contacted.  What I can inform the Committee about is that the Baduza family, or Mr Baduza, I don't know if he's related to that family, was contacted and they didn't want to participate at all, and they were approached about making a statement or whatever and they just refused to give any cooperation to the Commission.  But the information, Pitso, that was never followed up in any detail and I don't have any record of a Mr Pitso being approached with a notice to either appear or that he was implicated.

MR MBANDAZAYO: If you remember, just to remind the Members of the Committee, it was alleged that where they were staying, the members of APLA, it was the house of Mr Pitso.  That's what Ms Tsemane ...

ADV PRIOR: May I also enquire, Mr Mbandazayo may help us, is that also one of his clients, because if so we can possibly via his office then serve him an appropriate notice, but according to the correspondence file that was handed to me by the Evidence Analyst, there seems to be no follow-up with Mr Pitso.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Through the Chairperson, he is not a client of mine, in fact I don't even know his face, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was something said about him, can you give us the reference?  I know he was mentioned right at the end of Ms Tsemane's evidence where she was asked ...

MR MBANDAZAYO: I just also have it in my notes, Chairperson, when she was also questioning Makuala about where they were staying.  Before she gave evidence herself, she also asked about the place, that he was a local chief.  If you still remember when she said her father used also to act as a chief there was also ...  I have it in my notes, Chairperson, I didn't go through the bundle, I was looking through my notes.

ADV SANDI: Mr Prior, according to my handwritten notes that was on the very last day when we adjourned, because certain names were being mentioned and these people had not been given a Section 19 notice.
NO SOUND

ADV PRIOR: ... of the record, Mr Chairman, there's talk about the house at which they were staying and this is when questions were put by Mr D Tsemane, a house in Jozana, but I don't think at that stage it was named.  Then Mr L ...(intervention)

MR NAUDE: ...(indistinct)

ADV PRIOR: Hang on, hang on, no, it's earlier than that.  Mr Chairman, from page 108, Mr L Tsemane one of the sons, was challenging Mr Dolo to name that person and then at page 109 at the bottom they talk about, it's been transcribed as Pila.  Okay it's Phila, where does he stay, is he around?

MR LAX: It's a different person, that was Phila Dolo.  There were two Phila's, there was Phila Dolo and Phila something else.  The names escapes me now, but ...(intervention)

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's Phila Powa(?).  Ja, that's true, Chairperson.  I'm afraid that the record does not, some of the things I was reading through do not reflect what I have in my notes, some of the things have skipped from the record, it does not reflect.
NO SOUND

ADV PRIOR: ... there's a reference to Mr Mbele Bhele, is that a different ... oh, hang on, page 233 there's mention of Pitso.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That time Mr Prior was referring to at the time Ms Tsemane was asking, when she was asking questions to Mr Makuala.

MR LAX: ...(indistinct)

MR MBANDAZAYO: At this time she was testifying, but Mr Prior was referring what was mentioned Ms Tsemane at the time when she was questioning Mr Makuala.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may Ms Tsemane be sworn?

CHAIRPERSON: You will remember you have been sworn, that any evidence you will be the truth.

MS TSEMANE: ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: I'm reminding you that you were sworn in when you first gave evidence.  You swore that the evidence you gave would be the truth, that still applies.

MS TSEMANE: (s.u.o.)

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I don't have any evidence from this witness, and I think the stage is now whether Mr Mbandazayo wishes to cross-examine her.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, definitely I would like to ask a few questions, but as I indicated I wanted to have some ...(indistinct) from the Committee, because at the time when I was to cross-examine the witness when these names were mentioned, that's why I asked whether, because definitely the allegation was that at that time ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I have looked at the record and the only reference I can find to the name of this gentleman was by Mr Prior.

MR MBANDAZAYO: If you look, Chairperson, from ...(indistinct) from page 171 of the record towards the, starting from the end, it's ...(indistinct).

MR LAX: That's not testimony, that's questioning.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, that's questioning, Chairperson, that's why I said look, my problem is that I'm going to ask her about, I do have in my notes that, and I was talking to her now about that, that the allegation was that, that was the reason, the allegation was that when it comes to other people it was because of business reasons that they were killed.  Then when it comes to her father it was because he was a rival to Pitso.

MR LAX: Where does that appear from the transcript, Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...(indistinct).  I don't find it in the transcript.  If you remember, Mr Lax, when she mentioned that her father used also to act as a chief, that's how I have it, that Pitso was a chief.  Maybe I ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: I think just carry on because from we've seen so far in the evidence, there is nothing to indicate that Mr Pitso has been said to be involved in any way.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Ms Tsemane, you asked Mr Makuala about Pitso, whether he knows Pitso or not and it was his answer that he does not know Pitso, and it was your, the impression I get, that he was not telling the truth that he does not know Pitso.  Now I want to know who is Pitso.

MS TSEMANE: Pitso is a businessman in Jozana's Hoek and he is also, I don't know what do you call it, he's not really a chief, we've got a chief and then we've got a headman.  I would say he was a headman of Jozana.  And Jozana is not near our village, it's a little bit far away from our village where we stay.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Was your father related in any to, you were related in any way to Pitso, or do you know any relationship or any, whether it's personal or ...(intervention)

MS TSEMANE: Yes, I know it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee?

MS TSEMANE: My father had four wives.  Pitso's sister, how I don't know because I know the surnames, my father's second wife was Ms Pitso.  So in our culture it ...(indistinct) a long way and then it ends up being a family.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So in that way you were sort of related, he was sort of related to Pitso?

MS TSEMANE: Yes, I would say so.

MR MBANDAZAYO: According to your knowledge was there any friction between your father and Pitso?

MS TSEMANE: Yes, though I don't know how deep it was, but there was.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, can you tell the Committee about that?

MS TSEMANE: Mr - I'm sure I've also explained ...(intervention)