Amnesty Hearings — Carltonville — 1998-08-12

MR STEENKAMP: Mr John Mokome, Mr Chairman, that's correct.

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I don't recall clearly as to whether they attacked Mr Mokome but I was just attacked by Big Five, not the deceased.

MR STEENKAMP: Would you agree with me if I suggest to you that the information that we received from a few sworn statements that is before the Committee, is that the actions of the applicants were basically revenge attacks on both the deceased, do you agree with that?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: No, I don't agree with that.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you explain and elaborate a bit further, why do you not agree with that?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I disagree with that because of one reason being that there were anti-crime committees that were formed with the intention of controlling criminal elements in the township and the applicants here did not go out on a vengeance but were trying to do away with criminalities in the township.

MR STEENKAMP: So they were actually taking the law in their own hands, is that what you are saying Sir?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: We tried to report certain people and that's when they decided to take the law into their hands.  They reported this to the police but nothing was taken against these criminal offences by these gangs.

MR STEENKAMP: Looking back at the incident, how would you do describe their actions, being criminal or political?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: They were political matters.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you explain to me why you are saying this?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: The reason why I say this was a political issue is because one of the applicants who is seeking amnesty was an Organising Secretary of the Interim Committee of the Youth League.

MR STEENKAMP: Are you saying that only the one applicant's actions was politically motivated or exactly what are you saying?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: All the applicants deeds were politically motivated.

MR STEENKAMP: But Sir, maybe I misunderstood you.  Why are you saying this?  You see the victims point of view is that there was no political motivation whatsoever for this deed, can you elaborate on that please, why are you saying it's political?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I said this falls under the political ambit because one of them was serving in the committee and the others were supporters of the organisation of the Interim ANC Youth League.

MR STEENKAMP: So they were only supporters, they were never members?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: They were supporters, not members.

MR STEENKAMP: You see I find this surprising Sir, because as far as I remember the testimony of the applicants, the other three applicants yesterday and even when looking at the amnesty application, it clearly stated that they were members of the Youth League, not supporters.

MS GCABASHE: Can we just get clarity on this.  We got an interim ANC Youth League which hadn't been launched yet, maybe that is where the distinction lies, Mr Steenkamp.  Maybe you want to find out whether the Interim would have had membership or supporters.

MR STEENKAMP: I'm sorry Mr Chairman, Honourable Member.  	Maybe just to clarify this, were they members or were they supporters of the Interim Group of the Youth League of the ANC as it then existed?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: They were members of the Interim organisation or structure.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, have you ever discussed this matter with any of the applicants shortly after the incident?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: After this comrade Hendrik came to report to the Committee.

MR STEENKAMP: And what did he report Sir, what exactly did he say?  Did he say: "We killed this person who was responsible for the attack on Mr Mokome"?  What exactly did he report to the committee?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: He told the committee that they did go to Bekkersdal and managed to find these thugs and they tried to arrest them or to catch them but these thugs attacked them and they therefore defended themselves against the attack.

MR STEENKAMP: My last question to you Sir is, and this is only the viewpoint, at least my understanding of the applicants on the  ...[indistinct] testimony yesterday, you see he admitted that after deceased number 1 was unarmed, disarmed I mean, he was then killed with his own knife, do you still think that is criminal or political?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I realise that he was trying to defend himself.

MR STEENKAMP: So you don't really know what happened in this incident, am I correct?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] been giving an account of what was told to him.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: The question was put to you whether Hendrik reported this matter to the committee.  My understanding of your evidence is, Hendrik reported the matter to you and you reported it to the committee, is that not correct?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Hendrik reported to me and I told him that the best way would be for him to come to the committee and he did that.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know a Mr Daniel Nzeku?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Yes, I know Mr Daniel Nzeku.

CHAIRPERSON: What position did he occupy?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: At that time he was the ANC Secretary.

CHAIRPERSON: Of what region?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Of the Carltonville region.

CHAIRPERSON: This is not an Interim Committee, this is the ANC Committee?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: His was not an interim one.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he know the applicants?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Yes, he knew them.

CHAIRPERSON: And who elected you as Interim Secretary when the organisation had not yet been formed?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: We were elected in a meeting that was held in the stadium where the community elected the committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Where the committee elected the committee, what does that mean?  Where the community elected the committee, I see.

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: The youth that was there elected all committees according to their residential areas.

CHAIRPERSON: This gentlemen, Mr Daniel Nzeku says that the applicants were no longer members of the Youth League but belonged to a break-a-way group.

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I don't recall these applicants belonging to some splinter group, I don't recall that.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're not in a position to contradict it?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I disagree with him because the applicants were members of the Interim structure.

CHAIRPERSON: So we are now in this difficult position where the Secretary of the ANC, holding this important position, telling us on oath in an affidavit that the applicants belonged to a break-a-way group, and you're saying that you don't recall that that was so.

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I don't recall the applicants belonging to any other organisation or structure.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give us any suggestions as to why Mr Nzeku should say this in his affidavit?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I wouldn't be able to explain but all I know is that they did not belong to any other splinter groups.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the people that you described as thugs, quite clearly they did not belong to any political group, is that so?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: The people you described as the thugs who were terrorising your community, they did not belong to any political group?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Yes, Sir, it is so, they were not aligned with any political group.

CHAIRPERSON: So the activity of the applicants and others was to oppose the criminal element in the community and prevent them from carrying on their activities, that is what they were ...[inaudible]

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So, they were engaged, the applicants were not engaged in any political activity whilst they were opposing the criminal element?

RAMOGARE GORDON MAHUMA: I don't understand the question.