Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MS MOLOISANE: You say you had this information about them.  From where did you get that information?

JOHN RADEBE: I did not know that very well about these particular two people. ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Answer the question Mr Radebe.  Where did you get the information?

JOHN RADEBE: From comrade Mabusa.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is he?

JOHN RADEBE: He was a member of the underground structure of MK.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did he stay?

JOHN RADEBE: Zone 12.

CHAIRPERSON: And when did he tell you this information?

JOHN RADEBE: I'm not able to tell when, but that is the person who told me.

CHAIRPERSON: You must be in a position to tell.  Was that  in 1993 or was it a year before 1993?

JOHN RADEBE: I would say, I may say it's late 1992 or early 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were told by comrade Mabusa about the activities of the ladies in question, where were you staying?

JOHN RADEBE: In Small Farm.

CHAIRPERSON: With your indulgence Ms Moloisane, in what capacity were you informed about the ladies in question's activities?

JOHN RADEBE: I was his second in charge.  That is why he had to inform me about these issues.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you just tell us about the structure that you are referring to, to which you were his second in charge?  Your only evidence has been that comrade Mabusa was a member of the MK and operated underground.  Can you just be more explicit about the structure you are referring to when you say you were his second in charge?

JOHN RADEBE: In regard to the self defence unit structures, because at times when we observed things going on the community in regard to the murder or the killings of people, people would be deployed in that particular area, usually I would assist him in deploying people.  We would know that certain people are in particular areas and other in particular areas, then we will be able to deploy them.  That is why I am saying I was his second in charge.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a commander of an SDU as a structure?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And which unit?

JOHN RADEBE: Zone 12 unit.

CHAIRPERSON: How many members did that unit comprise?

JOHN RADEBE: Many members.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, give an estimate.  We are trying to establish the command structure.

JOHN RADEBE: Approximately eighty to a hundred members, because every member of the youth would volunteer to be a member of the self defence unit.

CHAIRPERSON: What year was this when he was the commander of the Zone 12 unit?

JOHN RADEBE: From 1993.  Even if I'm not sure, but if I remember well it was as from 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: And was Mr Mkhwanazi as well as Mr Ntjolo, members of that particular unit?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes they were members of the self defence unit in Zone 12.

CHAIRPERSON: To which you were second in charge?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: As it please you Madam Chair.  Now you told this Committee that you had, Stanley had given you some orders.  I just want you to clarify this.  If Stanley hadn't given you orders to do a clean job, would you still have killed Hapile Ndumo?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.  Would still kill her.

MS MOLOISANE: Why?

JOHN RADEBE: Because of the evil work which was done by Inkatha within Sebokeng.  Because people were worried about the activities of Inkatha at all times.  Which they did within Sebokeng community.

MS MOLOISANE: Just explain it further.  If, what do you mean by saying because of the activities of Inkatha?  I mean you would still have killed her because of the activities of Inkatha.  What do you mean?  Explain it further.

JOHN RADEBE: Some of the comrades who were members of various units were killed by Inkatha.  That is why when I saw Inkatha I saw an enemy.

MS MOLOISANE: Now, why did you kill Hapile Ndumo on that particular day, the 15th of August 1993?

JOHN RADEBE: I killed her because of playing a role in the killings of Vaal triangle communities.  That is the reason why I shot her, and to spy on our comrades.  Because at any time I would be eliminated by Inkatha, or my colleague who was a member of my unit, or an innocent member of the community.  That is why I killed her.

MS MOLOISANE: Now why did you shoot Elsie Mokoena?

JOHN RADEBE: I killed, I shot at her because of playing a role in the killings of Vaal triangle community members, and to spy on our comrades.  Because innocent people were killed, like small children sleeping at night.  Those things made us feel bad.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moloisane, I have not been able to understand with better clarity in respect of which acts your client seeks amnesty.  With regard to this particular incident.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair I am here concerned with the event of the 15th of August.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: That is the murder of Hapile Ndumo,

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: The assault of Elsie Mokoena,

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: and the illegal possession of arms and ammunition.

CHAIRPERSON: That is right.  What is not clear to me is whether he is saying to us he wanted to kill Ms Mokoena and he therefore seeks amnesty for attempting to kill Ms Mokoena, or he is only applying for amnesty for the assault with intention to do grievous bodily harm as was found by the criminal Court.  That is not confined to the conviction that came out of the criminal trial.  That's why I just want clarity in respect of the Elsie Mokoena incident.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases this Committee.  Madam Chair, if, we are actually applying for amnesty for the attempted murder, the murder of Hapile Ndumo, the attempted murder in respect of which he was convicted for assault.

CHAIRPERSON: These are different offences.  He is talking of the offence for which he was convicted, which is assault GBH.  I understand that he would apply for that, but does he want to go further and say it was his intention to kill Ms Mokoena, and not just to assault her?

MS MOLOISANE: May I get instructions thereon?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: When you shot Elsie Mokoena what was your intention?  Was your intention to kill her, or just to assault her?

JOHN RADEBE: My intention was to kill her.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time when you shot her, immediately after they had been taken out of the tavern, your intention was to kill her?  When you fired the shot, it was not to scare her?

JOHN RADEBE: My intention was to kill her.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I see you find this amusing.  It is not amusing to us Mr Radebe.  I see you are smiling as if there is something amusing.  We do not find this process to be amusing.

JOHN RADEBE: It's because I saw the actual mistake because I wanted to continue therefore Chairperson stopped.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: Now, I want you to clarify this point.  When you shot at the two girls, that is Hapile Ndumo, Elsie Mokoena and later on at Hapile Ndumo, was this because you were, was it a revenge killing, let me put it that way, or were you doing it because of a particular reason?

JOHN RADEBE: Mainly it was protection.  To protect myself.  Because the information received in Boipatong, young people would knock, and when you opened the door people would start shooting, that is how we had to shoot them.  And again because of their spying activity, because comrades were arrested or detained by the police, that is how we had to protect ourselves.

MS MOLOISANE: Thank you.  Now, in your affidavit, when you applied for amnesty in respect of this event, on page 149 thereof, paragraph 14, you told, 149 of the bundle, paragraph 14 thereof.  You said
"...we then took Hapile with us at a distance of about plus minus four hundred metres.  I shot Hapile with two bullets, shots, and Fani also shot her with two bullets."
This is not your evidence now.  I want you to clarify this point to the Committee.