Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-13

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: The policemen destroyed a lot of people's houses.  People said that the policemen destroyed the furniture inside the house.  They started taking people out from inside the houses and Mr Holiday when he arrived at court said my son had a hand grenade in his possession and he threw it at the Hippo.  Then if he had a hand grenade how many policemen died on that day.  That was my question and Mr Holiday could not answer that question.

RUSSELL ALLY: He definitely said hand grenade, not petrol bomb or.  So was that ...
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JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: ... hand grenade.

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: He said hand grenade.  He tried defending himself in that manner during the court processions.

RUSSELL ALLY: And your son got, he was 15 years old at the time.  Was he involved in any of the political organisations in youth structures or street committees or UDF structures?  Do you know?

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: No, he did not have any affiliation with such organisations.  He was in any organisation or he was not involved in the Comrades or politics.

RUSSELL ALLY: But he was attending that funeral that day?  Is that correct?  Was he part of the funeral procession or was he just one of the bystanders?

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: They took him from the house which is the back opposite from our house.  They went along the street taking people from inside the houses.  My son said that as they were hiding themselves from certain houses.  They took them out and started beating him and he told them to go home.  Then Mr Holiday started shooting at him.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now you said to us that your son did not die immediately.  That he actually died two years later almost on the same day that he was shot on the seventh of December ...

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: Yes.

RUSSELL ALLY: ... two years later.  Now during that period after he was shot and he died, your son, he lived with you and you use to take him to hospital or was he at the hospital all the time and you use to go and visit him at the hospital?

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: He was still at the hospital and he voluntarily asked to be at home during weekends.  They would release him PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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on Friday and on Monday I would take him back until he could not manage to come home during weekends.  He was seriously ill by then.  His head was swollen, he was supported with oxygen and even his stomach was swollen.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now, your son, did he ever tell you in his own words what actually happened on that day when he was shot?  Did he give you his account?

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: He knew nothing.  Probably he was unconscious.  I asked him what happened.  Even people from the nearby houses were witnesses.  Then they told, they said what happened with my son on that day.

RUSSELL ALLY: But he never gave an account himself of what happened that day?

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: No, he did not.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you Mrs Mafuya. I am going to ask if there are any other Commissioners who want to ask questions.  Tom.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mrs Mafuya, before the burial of one, this student, did you ever hear of any student activities in Atteridgeville which were in conflict with the police procedures or councillors?

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: Comrades activities which laid procedures as how to conduct burials of students at that time.

THOMAS MANTHATA: My question was did you hear that youth of that time were against or in conflict with policemen and committee councillors where their houses were destroyed or they were killed because you said this was during riots.

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: This councillors houses were burnt during those times because this, I did witness such activities.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Were they destroyed by the youth or who destroyed the houses?

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: I can say it is boys or youth who destroyed
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such houses.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Can we now say the policemen looked for such youths?

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: Yes, they did.  The policemen wanted to find these people.

THOMAS MANTHATA: But now this youth were either COSAS or youth league members.  Did they look for them because they wanted to know their membership and where they reside?

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: They did not want to know about their membership, they just mentioned the word comrades.  In their comrades they wanted to find them.  If they find you they would ask you to which organisation are you affiliated?

THOMAS MANTHATA: We know that youth who were arrested, they could say that comrades that they worked with because they could actually give out names of comrades that they worked with because they worked in the same offices.  Sorry, what I am saying is that they have their names in the books, in the offices.  They would be given names of such people by those who arrest them timeously.

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: I cannot testify as to that.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What I am trying to prove here is that, was it appropriate arrest any other youth on the street because they would know the names of the youth who were affiliated to such organisations to which they said, they claimed that they burn houses of such people.

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: They would arrest any youth or boy and arrest them.

THOMAS MANTHATA: At that time could you distinguish between a policeman, a soldier?  Could you say this was a policeman or a soldier of these people, did they perform the same duty at the same time?
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JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: At that time policemen and soldiers did perform the same duties.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Does it mean then Atteridgeville was a war zone at that time?

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: Yes, it is so.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Unfortunately, your son was shot at that time.  Even after that they still come to collect his body even after he died.

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: The soldiers did come to our house.  They wanted to see how old is this person.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Then they took the corpse to perform some surgery and then what did they say they wanted?

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: They said the wanted the bullets because they are still in his body.

THOMAS MANTHATA: It would seem that you are very lucky because they compensated you.  I still wonder if you were compensated to satisfaction.

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: I want Mr Holiday in jail.  Then I would be satisfied.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What you want is that Mr Holiday must be arrested and be jailed?

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: He hurt me very much by killing such a young boy and shooting him.  That hurt me very much.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Now what we could suggest is that would you not like to meet Constable Holiday and discuss about things that transpired with respect to your child?

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: I do not want to do that because at court he said that he had a lot of friends and said that I want to contest the comrades case and my child was not a comrade.  He was only 15 years.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What you mean is that Holiday said he is not
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prepared to talk to you about the child's funeral?

JOYCE NOCAWE MAFUYA: What I mean is that I do not want to meet with him.  I heard him in court, what he said.  Even in the passages at court whilst he was with his friends and said that I want to contest the comrades case.  What is it then that I can talk with such a person?

THOMAS MANTHATA: We will ask you that this matter is still to be discussed much further or investigated.  So it is such a difficult thing for you as a woman.  So I will just stop there with my questions.

RUSSELL ALLY: Wynand.