Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-25

MR VALLY: No, you didn't understand my question.  Let me quote you a section of your letter, at page 10 of the letter you said
"I never wanted to destroy you"
You said yesterday, no.
"I wanted everything to be discussed with you but that did not go according to what I wanted, I never wanted to shame you"
I put to you that you do not fully explain your role as the perpetrator of gross human rights violations - both in the kidnapping and the assault of the youngsters, in the part you played in smearing Reverend Paul Verryn and you are persisting in that attitude up to today, this is what I put to you.

MS FALATI: Then your question Sir?

MR VALLY: I would like your comments to what my assertions are.

MS FALATI: What do you want my comment to?

MR VALLY: I'll repeat my question.

CHAIRPERSON: He's asking if you're agreeing with him - yes or no, about what he's just put before you that even to date you are not admitting to the fact that you played a part or you were involved in assaulting the youths and committing all the atrocities, as well as defaming Reverend Paul Verryn.  All he wants to know is whether you're agreeing to the matter or not.

MS FALATI: That I had part in the assaulting of the youths?  No, I had no part and I was not involved.  I never thought they would be assaulted in that place, the person who was supposed to be asked was Paul Verryn.  You know Bishop, I am very sorry, there is this thing you know that happens, that you find yourself bottling and today I want to vent everything - I'm venting it with anger.  ...[inaudible] that .... I'm bottled up for quite a long time and then there are so many things that are at the same time and so many things I want to - so many answers keep cropping and I want to explain - not in one version, and quote some instances so that is why I would like to apologise on that matter.

CHAIRPERSON: This is why I'm saying myself, try as much as possible to be polite in the whole matter because we are quite aware about the fact that they're so emotionally involved and another thing - you've been had.  Thank you very much.
 Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, may we indicate that there are statements by the witness which won't be possible to be treated within the time frame that we have.  We are going to use the time frame, I just don't want the record to be read later to mean that some of the...[indistinct] she's made we accepted.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me indicate that the ...[inaudible] I sought to establish this morning were indices to try to persuade you people to be restrained but I - as you have seen, exercise a discretion and at a time when you want to cross-examine the witness, you'll know that I will allow you a fair degree of latitude.  So, if you will please go ahead with a little bit in the back of the mind that I might shut you up.

MR SEMENYA: Yes Chairperson, I understand and I'm not complaining either, I'm merely stating that that aspect of her evidence which we do not deal with directly should not be construed to be an admission on our part.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Ma'am I take it your dislike for Mrs Mandela is an open secret?

MS FALATI: No English translation.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] for Mrs Madikizela Mandela is apparent, is that correct?

MS FALATI: I don't hear what you are saying.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] Mrs Mandela is self evident, is it not?

CHAIRPERSON: You can put on the headphones.
 Let's try again Mr Semenya.

MR SEMENYA: Miss Falati in simple terms, you dislike Mrs Mandela, is that right?

MS FALATI: I do not.

MR SEMENYA: Do you love her?

MS FALATI: I don't know.

MR SEMENYA: You don't know?

MS FALATI: ...[inaudible] in fact my answer to her is she should apologise, not by paying any amount of money but simply apologise to me and be grateful about the fact that I served sentence on her behalf.

MR SEMENYA: Do you know about the death of George in the East Rand?

MS FALATI: Pardon?

MR SEMENYA: Do you know about the death of George in the East Rand?

MS FALATI: She knows about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Try by all means to precisely answer the question.

MS FALATI: ...[inaudible] paying for this Stompie trial at Johannesburg prison, I was taken by the security branch in the East Rand.  They interrogated me for 15 days wanting - showing me pictures of George and then the next thing Mrs Mandela sent the person to City Press so the person can say and allege this an that about Xoliswa.  When City Press asked her questions they came to me and told me that they had been sent by Mrs Mandela to say all what they have said about me.

MR SEMENYA: Do you know about the death of George?

MS FALATI: Of?

MR SEMENYA: George in the East Rand.

MS FALATI: I was told by the security.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] your house was burnt in the East Rand.

MS FALATI: Pardon?

MR SEMENYA: Was this before your house was burnt in the East Rand?

MS FALATI: It was after I was at Johannesburg prison.

MR SEMENYA: What did the security force say about the death of George?

MS FALATI: They were asking who killed George.

MR SEMENYA: Why was your house burnt down in the East Rand?

MS FALATI: I was detained for three days for harbouring - as a suspect for harbouring trained cadres of Umkhonto weSizwe, it was after the incident which took place on the 23rd of October 1987 when there was a shoot-out between the MK soldiers and the security forces.

MR SEMENYA: What I'm trying to establish is, did you come to know who was responsible for burning down your house?

MS FALATI: I was told by - because I slept on the other side at 14 Mapanzela Street at my cousin's place, I was told by some of the people that my house was on fire.  There is a shebeen down in the same street as mine, so the people from the shebeen told me that they've seen a blue Skyline.

MR SEMENYA: The information that I have is that your house was burnt by the youth in the East Rand.

MS FALATI: That is new to me because it was never investigated because when you call for a fire brigade you have to call for the fire brigade through the police station and when I called the police station to send me a fire brigade because my house was on fire, the fire brigade came after one hour and five minutes.
 During that time when the fire brigade came - it was late, the house was extinguished by the community so they said we must come at about 8 o'clock and write statements so they can investigate but it was never investigated until last month in October when I was phoned by a certain Captain Fry who said he wants to investigate the burning - the bombing of my house.

MR SEMENYA: Even before you went to Soweto - whilst you were in the East Rand, there used to be young boys that would come to your house for meetings, is that right?

MS FALATI: Yes.  They wanted me to assist them to get lawyers for those who were detained.

MR SEMENYA: So, this is now before you even made contact - other than for the distant meeting with Mrs Mandela, you had already had a relationship of having children in your house coming for various meetings, is that right?

MS FALATI: For?

MR SEMENYA: Children coming to your house in the East Rand for meetings.

MS FALATI: Not meetings, they were asking for help because I was working at Bishop Semu Ngwane's office as a social welfare officer doing field working.

MR SEMENYA: Let's quickly go to Bishop Verryn's Manse.  Do you recall an incident where Stompie had a nose bleed and had a tissue paper in his nose?

MS FALATI: The what?

MR SEMENYA: A nose bleed and had blocked it with a tissue paper in the nostril.

MS FALATI: No, I can't remember that.

MR SEMENYA: It was at the time that you accused Stompie for the first time of being an informer, do you recall that?