Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-24

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I can point that out, Mr Chairman.  What happened round about this period of time, a new computer system, reference system was being installed at S H Q and they were doing away with the 1, 2, 3, 4 reference numbers and everybody was just getting a V, for Veiligheid and then the next number would just be how the computer would get it and the PN would show the division or the region from which the suspect emanated from, so if that was OTV then you'd know that Ndwandwe came from Oos Transvaal.

MR LAX: Okay.

MR VISSER: Perhaps just to add to the question which Commissioner Lax has just put to you, to make it absolutely clear, wee files kept by the Security Branch only on suspects or on a variety of people?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: On a variety of persons, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Because at page 11 of Exhibit J1 one has Buthelezi, Gatsha, for example, who also has a file. Both at divisional level as well as at Security Head Office.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Sir.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Now you applied ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just one last aspect, before we move away from there.  If you could just clear up an aspect that occurred to me at any rate.  On page 12 there's a "Verspreiding" heading and items 1 to 5 indicate obviously departments, items 6 to, I can't read the others but 12 at any rate look like file references, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, the first five, L1 and L2, were desks at Headquarters.

CHAIRPERSON: Were what?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Desks.  Security desk at Headquarters.

MR LAX: So what would L stand for and A?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: You've got L1 and A1.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, I think section A was ANC general affairs and L, I forget what it was, I think it might have been an analytical section.

MR LAX: Alright.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I don't - there were many of those.

MR LAX: But the others are clearly some of the same reference numbers as appear in the previous list.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, then the O Transvaal, Northern Natal, that would have been the other regions that this report was distributed to, then after that, NV9/126 Swaziland, that Port Natal, Security Branch 916 was the number for the ANC, that was our reference number for ANC, then the numbers underneath that, PN 666, that would be a copy to the source file of the agent, PNV 22/29/16 was the Inkatha file, so there would have been a copy made for that, for some reason, it will be in the contents of the report, I can't comment now.

MR VISSER: Would that have been an Inkatha file kept by the Security Police, or kept by Inkatha?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No that's the Security Branch's code reference for Inkatha.

MR VISSER: Alright, continue.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: PNV 13/436, that was, now I can't recall but I heard today maybe the UDF file, so a copy would have been placed in that.  PNV4/35 as we've seen now, was Mangosotho Buthelezi's personal file, so copy 10 would have gone into that.  Copy 11, PNV4/V/139, was the intermittent file for Mr Ndaba and then number 12SV 665 Port Natal was Zandile's file, that would have been filed in that file.

MR LAX: ...the evidence of Mr Maharaj is this went to 15 different departments and in fact it only went to about 3 other stations, the rest are all sub-files within your own filing system.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir, all at Port Natal, PNB.

MR LAX: I just wanted to correct that apparent inaccuracy.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairperson we did in fact draw attention to the very fact that you mentioned, that Commissioner Lax mentioned, when we cross-examined Mr Maharaj, because that appears from page 1 to which regions the report was sent, where you will find Oos Transvaal, Natal and Noord Natal in the right-hand column, Mr Chairman, but I didn't realise that there might be a problem with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Just let's go on to the next one. V6665/PN.  Would that be an informer.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Page, please Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 12, the list you've just been looking at.

MR LAX: That's Zandile.  She's Filla Portia Ndwandwe.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, at that stage PN following a V number it merely says Port Natal, subject of Port Natal.

MR VISSER: That was the file of whom?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: The one we're referring to now was of Zandile.  Filla Ndwandwe.

MR VISSER: Ndwandwe, yes.  And reference, Mr Chairman, has previously been made to that very reference and you will find the first one at page 2, paragraph 2.6 of Exhibit J1.

MR LAX: Can I just round this off?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I'm confused, the one I was looking at is on page 1, it's only two sixes, 665.

MR VISSER: Yes, but that is...

CHAIRPERSON: I got the numbers confused.

MR VISSER: Yes, but that's preceded by PN which denotes an informer as I understand it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I wondered if in the filing system you put the, you might put the informer behind, because its a four letter number against the three for informers, so no its a different.

MR VISSER: Mr Wasserman ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Visser, just one last aspect.  It's also clear from the front of that annexure on page 1 that a copy went to DNI and AMI.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: It didn't go to them?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, we excluded them.

MR LAX: You excluded them.  I just wanted to be clear about that.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman its not going to National Intelligence, not going to military Intelligence.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR VISSER: It says "Beperk" Mr Chairman, it means excluded.  So they didn't get it.  Just one aspect which I didn't understand correctly and I did not put quite correctly to Mr Maharaj and to which you have drawn my attention, the synopsis given in paragraph 2 I put to Mr Maharaj, was done by yourself, is that correct, or is that incorrect?  I'm talking about Exhibit J1.

MR VISSER: Was that synopsis written by you or by someone else?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, it wasn't written by myself.

MR VISSER: Was that also done by?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Capt at that time Botha.

MR VISSER: Capt Botha.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry about that Mr Chairman, I was under the impression that this was done by Wasserman, but I was clearly incorrect, he's drawn my attention to that.  And what follows thereafter in paragraph 3 and following is what the information was that you received from the informer, clearly.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is correct, yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So Botha being your Commander is the person that receives this information and from then on he's got to deal with it?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: On this occasion that's how it happened, Mr Chairman,  he processed the report and the Intelligence ...(indistinct).

MR LAX: Sorry could I just be clear about this?  So you didn't actually draft this report?  You compiled the information in a sense and reported it to Botha.  You prepared this document?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is correct, yes, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Thanks Mr Visser, I just wasn't clear about that, I just wanted to make absolutely sure.

MR VISSER: Yes, but I must concede Mr Chairman, that I gave rise to the uncertainty because I misunderstood it myself.  Yes.  Would you then look at page 1 of Exhibit K?  You applied for amnesty for the abduction or man stealing or the unlawful arrest of Mr Mbuso Shabalala, the unlawful detention or deprivation of liberty of both Mr Ndaba and Mr Shabalala, the murder of both these gentlemen and well, what weapons were used at the time to assassinate Mr Ndaba and Mr Shabalala?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, use was made of two Scorpions, sub-machine gun pistols.