Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: Thank you, Archbishop.  The position in terms of the procedure, in terms of how we are going to make our findings finally is a combination of factors.  It doesn't revolve only around what is put to a specific witness at a specific point.  Regarding this particular issue we have the in camera Section 29 Inquiry. Certain positions were taken there on the issue.  Secondly, we are going to have Mrs Madikizela-Mandela also having the opportunity later this week.  Thirdly, we also do independent corroboration, independent investigations.  It's a combination of all this evidence put together when the Commissioners on their own would make a finding of whatever sort.

MR JOSEPH: How does any one of my learned friend know what evidence which has been tendered by Mr Sono implicating the lady is accepted by the lady as being the truth, without her legal representative challenging on these issues?

CHAIRPERSON: Which legal representative are you talking about?

MR JOSEPH: Mr Semenya acting on behalf of ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: Mr Joseph, I would like to get some clarification.  You represent Mr Cebekhulu, don't you, and you are looking after the interests of Mr Cebekhulu, isn't it?  Mrs Mandela is ably represented by Mr Semenya.

MR JOSEPH: Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: I would like to think, I don't know, maybe I didn't understand you, it would appear to me that in that event your own position should be to safeguard the interests of Mr Cebekhulu.

MR JOSEPH: Let me not take this matter any further. I thought that it would be in the interests of everybody ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, thank you very much. Lawyers are wonderful people.  We are grateful.  I was going to ask whether my panel here have questions.  Yes, Dumisa.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you very much, Chair.  Mr Sono, I believe you have a copy of the transcript of the Human Rights Violations hearing on the 25th of July 1996 at which you testified, I think it's before you.

NICODEMUS SONO: Ja.

MR NTSEBEZA: And above paragraph 16, just to add on what Mr Unterhalter had been putting to you, do you see paragraph 16 just above that where it says Mr Manthata?
Was that another place where you did mention, other than today the fact that you understood Mrs Mandela to be saying the movement would see what to do with Lolo?

NICODEMUS SONO: Please ask your question again.

MR NTSEBEZA: Is that - if you see the paragraph that I referred to, just above that, Mr Manthata put a question to you, is that another place where you mentioned that - do you get the place?

NICODEMUS SONO: Yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: Is that another place, other than today, where you did mention the fact that you heard Mrs Mandela say to you the movement will decide what to do with Lolo?

NICODEMUS SONO: That is correct.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Faizel.

DR RANDERA: Mr Sono, two quick questions.  Your son disappeared in November of 1988.  You mentioned earlier on the publicity that came around Stompie Sepei.  Now there was a great deal of publicity in December and January of that month because those four young people were taken away from the Manse on the 29th of December 1988, and, of course, as I understand it church leaders were asking about these issues, the Mass Democratic Movement were asking and making statements, did you at any time approach either the church leaders or people from the Mass Democratic Movement about the disappearance of your son, and I accept that at that time you said that one possibility was that he may have left the country, but you were also saying earlier on that it was the publicity around Stompie that made you reconsider other possibilities.  Did you ever go to any of those church leaders or to the MDM?

NICODEMUS SONO: No, I did not go.

DR RANDERA: My second question is, we can all be wise in retrospect but at that time you mentioned that you went to the police, you mention that you went to see Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, did you ever go and see any lawyer to say this is what's happened to my son, I've been to the police, I've been to other people, I've had no help, can you actually assist me in any way?

NICODEMUS SONO: No, I did not.

DR RANDERA: So the first time you made a statement was with the Truth Commission?

NICODEMUS SONO: When the Truth and Reconciliation matter came up, then I took the opportunity to make the statement, but the police had my statements anyway.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Khoza.

KHOZA MGOJO: Thank you, sir.  Just to make a follow-up to the question which has been asked, ... that appear that you didn't approach anybody, the movement or the organisation of the ANC, which was UDF then, the church leaders which were very active especially in the Reef, and in your statement you say that you had become lonesome and even the contacts you had had deserted you.  Can you say more about those contacts?  What other contacts did you have?

NICODEMUS SONO: Well, mentioning for the fact that there were people that contacted me and tell me how many cadres are coming, what should I do for them, but after all this has happened fear crept into me because it was mere fear that I was fearing for my life, and I was fearing for the life of people in my surroundings.  I did not want to implicate anybody on that.  That's why I had to take it alone.   Because, to give you a clear picture, in my street, there were more than ten young men who were interested in the whole thing, so I had to protect them from the police, which is another role that I played alone, to make sure that they are not implicated in this because the police wouldn't stop pursuing me or pushing me or want to crack me, then I had to defend those young men in my street.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very, very much.  I just want to express on our behalf our deep appreciation to you for being willing again to expose your pain and anguish in this public way.  We are very grateful.  Thank you very much.

NICODEMUS SONO: You are welcome.
MR SONO EXCUSED

MR UNTERHALTER: Thank you, Chairperson.  Mrs Shabalala, are you the mother of Siboniso Shabalala?

NOMSA SHABALALA: Yes.

MR UNTERHALTER: Mrs Shabalala, I want to take you back to certain events that occurred in November 1988. Was your son Siboniso friendly with Lolo Sono?

NOMSA SHABALALA: Yes, that is correct.

MR UNTERHALTER: Can you tell us of what happened on the 13th of November 1988?  Did certain persons come looking for your son Siboniso?