Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1999-05-27

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: After my arrest, my heart was very broken, because I was arrested before I could carry out all the operations of my organisation. It had been my intention to continue with the struggle and after I was arrested, I tried to contact other comrades outside prison, so as to get their opinions as to what should happen now that this has happened.
	I contacted Comrade Mrapapa who came to visit me and after we had discussed we exchanged views that should there be an opportunity for me to escape, that would be acceptable, that's not a problem. We discussed and I requested him to try and procure a firearm for me to ease my escape. Indeed, he did organise a firearm for me so that I finally got an opportunity to escape.

MR MBANDAZAYO: How did you manage to get a firearm in prison? And how did you manage to escape?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Mrapapa brought the firearm along and gave it, or slipped it into the prison during his visit and once the firearm was in my possession I organised other people with whom I had been arrested so that we could assist one another. We got an opportunity, you see, the plan was that we were going to use a prison vehicle, but failing to do this, would mean that another vehicle would have to be secured and this would have to be organised from outside, because there was no certainty as to whether we would be in position to get the prison vehicle. Fortunately, we did get this vehicle from the prison and unfortunately we were arrested before we reached our destination.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, that is all that this stage. I would the applicant lead them on.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Adv Steenkamp, have you got any questions.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, if you would allow me just one or two questions?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV STEENKAMP: Sir, the Nissan bakkie that you used in the armed robbery, was this a stolen vehicle?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: This Nissan bakkie was brought by Comrade Bongani, but then we did not ascertain or establish as to whether it was stolen or not.

ADV STEENKAMP: Did you use any of the money that you got in the armed robbery for yourself? Did you spend any of the money on yourself or on any other perpetrators of this action? Do you know any, do you have any information in this regard?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: No. I would not say that there is any amount of money that we used for our personal use. We handed all this money to Comrade Bongani to use for the organisation.

ADV STEENKAMP: The second vehicle you used, according to your statement, you took from the, it was a prison vehicle. Are you also applying for, at least, for the theft or being in possession of a stolen vehicle for amnesty?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Yes, I am seeking amnesty in so far as all my offences are concerned.

ADV STEENKAMP: Can you give us an indication exactly where did you, according to your statement, you got rid of or dumped this Cash in Transit vehicle and the dead passenger? Where, more or less, or where was this body dumped?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: The vehicle was dumped near the township of Vosloorus. There is an open veld where we dumped this vehicle and we were in the company of one of the deceased. One of them fled, one of the occupants of this vehicle fled, but one of them remained behind and he was left at the open veld where this vehicle was dumped.

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Steenkamp. Can you just give
us an indication when about was it that Bongani died? How long after this incident where you robbed the money that you spoke about?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Bongani died, if I'm not mistaken, see we carried out the mission on the 20th of September and Bongani died, I think it was towards the end of December, that is if I am not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you arrested after that, after Bongani died?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Yes, I was arrested after Bongani had died.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, between this robbery and the end of December when Bongani died, was your unit involved in any other Apla operations?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: No. After we had learned that we were being sought, it then became difficult for us to continue our operations because we had fled to different places. We went to different places.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you still maintain close contact with Bongani in this period?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: We did not keep contact with Bongani because we did not know his whereabouts.

CHAIRPERSON: In this period, did you receive any further instructions from Apla? Any orders from Apla, for example, what you are supposed to do now?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: No. No other instructions were, or came through after we were sought by the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you attempt to, to make contact with the organisation?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: The organisation knew that we were being sought. But I do not understand what you mean, or in which context you're referring to the organisation, because the one person from whom we used to receive orders was Bongani.

CHAIRPERSON: So didn't you have any other contact with Apla apart from Bongani?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: No. The one person who, I would say, I would not say that we had other contacts except for the contact through Bongani.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you learned or you found out that Bongani had disappeared, did you make any other, did you make any attempts to contact Apla in any other way? For further instructions as to what you and the unit should now be doing?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: As I have explained, we were not in the position to communicate with Apla. We were operating as a task force so the one person who gave us directives was Bongani. So it is just as I have explained that we received directives only from Bongani as to how we were supposed to operate.

CHAIRPERSON: After the robbery, did Bongani discuss the subsequent actions with you, with the members? Did he say what you are going to do now and what you would do if the police start looking for you?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: What was raised was that in case the police wanted us, he was going to ...(indistinct). He would have to take us to Tanzania and other places where other cadres of Apla were.

CHAIRPERSON: Were any steps taken to do this when it became apparent that the police were looking for you, as a unit?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: After we were wanted by the police, we lost contact as I indicated earlier on. It became difficult for us to communicate with him because he too had disappeared.

CHAIRPERSON: How long after the robbery did it become apparent that the police were looking for you?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I would say it was after a week.

CHAIRPERSON: And how long after the, how long after the incident did you last have contact with Bongani?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I saw Bongani last on the day of the operation. That was the last day I saw him. I never saw him again.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you have any plans to meet again? Didn't you make any plans to get together again, after the robbery?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I would not say that there were plans or such plans in place, but I would say that there were no plans as to how we were going to meet after the mission was carried out, because we had not planned as to where we were going to meet, for example. It would have been difficult to meet at our usual rendezvous.

CHAIRPERSON: What were the other operations of your organisation that you still wanted to execute? And that caused you to be grieved after you were arrested?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I would not say that they were operations per se, but I would say that would be the continuation of waging the struggle and carry out other duties of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one other thing. When it became apparent that Bongani has now disappeared, didn't you make contact with any of the other known Apla members in your area?