Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-12

ADV DE JAGER: Ask Mr Kondile?

GINOTRY DANSTER: No, he spoke to Captain du Plessis, he did not ask him.

CHAIRPERSON: Did any of them talk to Kondile?

GINOTRY DANSTER: No, he did not talk to him.

MR BOOYENS: Just for the record, you have been sitting in this hearing throughout from Monday, is that correct? - you heard the evidence.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, that's correct.

MR BOOYENS: And you heard it being put that Coetzee was with van Rensburg when they visited Kondile.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Please repeat that.

MR BOOYENS: You heard the question being put that Coetzee was with van Rensburg when they visited Kondile.

GINOTRY DANSTER: No, I did not hear that.

MR BOOYENS: You didn't hear that, that part you missed.  Did you in fact tell your counsel that van Rensburg was with Coetzee when they came to visit Kondile?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Please repeat that.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Booyens, you're going to have difficulty with that, with this line of questioning.  You know, you're going to have difficulty with witnesses on this line of questioning if I may put it, as to why he didn't tell his counsel and so on.  He's not ...[indistinct] in this matter here, he's just been subpoenaed to give evidence.  He sits there as a lay man, I can't imagine him making notes of details of questions that are being asked of witnesses.

MR BOOYENS: No M'Lord, but that's not the point.  The point is, a material aspect is left out of his written statement which now all of a sudden appears in his evidence in chief.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you put to him that van Rensburg was never there, isn't that what you're trying to say?

MR BOOYENS: I want to know first of all why he didn't mention van Rensburg.  The implication is clearly van Rensburg was never there because van Rensburg said he was never there, that was his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, you see Mr ...[intervention]

GINOTRY DANSTER: After Dirk and van Rensburg and van Rensburg arrived, Captain du Plessis was inside with Raath and myself, Dirk was with black people that did not get off the car.

ADV GCABASHE: But Mr Danster, the one thing that really is still not clear to me, you made this statement, this written statement.  The point that Mr Booyens is making is, when you made this statement you did not mention that Mr van Rensburg arrived with Mr Coetzee and the question is: why not?  That really is what it is - why did you not mention van Rensburg's name in this statement which was made before you gave evidence this morning, that really is what he's asking you.  Can you help him with that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Let me help you this way Ma'am.  I gave all the details to the person who took the statement from me.

ADV GCABASHE: Does that include mentioning Mr van Rensburg's name when you mentioned Dirk Coetzee's name?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, I did mention his name.

MR BOOYENS: Now, why didn't you then earlier on when I asked you whether there was something wrong with the statement when the statement was taken, rectify that?

MR ROUX: Sorry, Mr Chairman, the fact that he's left out a name doesn't mean the statement is wrong, it just means it is not as fully detailed as it should have been.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, anyway ...[intervention]

MR BOOYENS: With respect Mr Chairman, that's not the case because on an answer to the Commissioner's question he said he mentioned it and now we are dealing with a statement that's been recorded incorrectly.  And he told us that he was satisfied with the statement and I think I am entitled to ask him why he didn't complain then.
	You mentioned somebody's name, the man taking the statement doesn't mention that name, why did you tell him?  Fix it, that's  Nick van Rensburg, add his name.  Have you got an answer?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Mr Booyens, I can't answer that question.

MR NYOKA: Very well then, well leave it.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we move along?

MR BOOYENS: The torture sessions, you say that Niewoudt and Roelofse tortured him twice, do you remember that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, I remember that.

MR BOOYENS: Was that on the same day or on two different days?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Two different days.

MR BOOYENS: And how many times did du Plessis torture him?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I could never count.

MR BOOYENS: Very many times?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, a lot of times.

MR BOOYENS: And you and Mr Raath?

GINOTRY DANSTER: A lot of times.

MR BOOYENS: And Buzani as well?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, as well.

MR BOOYENS: Now, was that because Mr Kondile was still not prepared to give his co-operation? - that these many torture occasions took place.

GINOTRY DANSTER: As I had already said, there's a particular kind of information that Mr du Plessis wanted, we was struggling to get that information.

MR BOOYENS: But you got it all eventually.

GINOTRY DANSTER: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: Was that before the trip to the Transkei?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And that was before the trip when the policeman was shot?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Please repeat that?

CHAIRPERSON: What policeman are you talking about, the raid in Umtata?

MR BOOYENS: He mentioned something about the two people getting away from Umtata and then they went to Butterworth M'Lord, that - when my learned friend stopped, I'm just trying to get a time on this.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: These two policemen, the female policeman and the male policeman, was that at the same time that you went up to Umtata when that incident occurred?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, it's during that time.

MR BOOYENS: Now just tell me, that was - there was a shooting incident at Butterworth first of all, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And then there was a shooting incident at - where was the other place that the shooting incident was?

GINOTRY DANSTER: McClear.

MR BOOYENS: If the Commission would just bear with me, I'm just trying to see if there's something in these clippings in - I know there is some ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: On page 17 and 18.

MR BOOYENS: I want to read to you what is said in the Daily Despatch of the 13th of August, page 17.

ADV DE JAGER: You're referring to Volume 4, for the record purposes.

MR BOOYENS: On Friday - this states
"On Friday, August 8, morning Butterworth, two Transkei policemen, Captain Philip Ngedi and Detective Constable Nkonsati Semmens, shot dead by gang of five terrorists
Friday, August 8, Transkei border: At a roadblock between ...[indistinct] and Elliot, the gang of five attempted to shoot their way out - two terrorists shot dead and one caught 	- two South African policeman, Sergeant Olivier and Constable van Straaten injured - two men escape into the bush"
Those are the incidents you're talking about, not so?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Are you talking about the people who escaped from Umtata to Butterworth?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Well, ...[intervention]

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry Mr Booyens, can somebody give a copy of Volume 4 to the witness?  Is it not possible for him to have all of these documents that we refer him to, in front of him?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Page?

CHAIRPERSON: Page 17.  Are the pages numbered?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, they've got numbers.

MR BOOYENS: You see, the evidence you gave was that these Umtata people were then apparently at the same time that you were in Umtata going to the bank there was this shoot-out at Butterworth and then there was the roadblock where there was also a shooting, do you remember that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, because that was reported over the radio whilst we were riding in the car.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.  No, I hear what you say but we are linking something now to a date involving a shoot-out at a police road block and a shooting of policemen at Butterworth.  You in fact starting talking about that in your evidence in chief as well, do you remember that?  That is the same time that you were in the Transkei with Mr Kondile.  You told us that already, you needn't think ...[intervention]