Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-21

ADV DE JAGER: So Martin refused to pay you the money back that he owed you?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, he didn't refuse.

ADV DE JAGER: Well, Diana paid it to you, not Martin?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, Diana paid it.

ADV DE JAGER: How did Martin get hold of this money of yours?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Martin took my bag, it was on a Friday.  He took it like he was playing.  It is a bag, not a bag where you put money, the one which we used to put money was inside that bag, that big bag.

ADV DE JAGER: So you and Martin knew each other for a long time?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, not a long time.

ADV DE JAGER: Well, at least - when was this money taken, you have known him since then or did you know him before that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I have known him before he took my bag.

ADV DE JAGER: That was almost a year before or six months before he was killed?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: What are you referring to?

ADV DE JAGER: When he took the money, it was more than, it was 11 months before he had been killed, he took this money roundabout February, wasn't it, January?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, we can say that even though I am not sure, but it is the same year, it was in 1989.

ADV DE JAGER: So you have known him at least for at least 11 months, but maybe even a year earlier, maybe two years almost?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: When the incident of the money occurred, he just came to the area.   When he arrived at the area, we were there, we were the first people he came to know.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, right.  Okay, now I just want to put it to you that you have known him for at least a year before he died.

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, I can agree with that.

ADV DE JAGER: And I have asked you whether he was an IFP member, he stayed in that area of yours for at least a year?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: So do you know whether he was an IFP member or not?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, I don't have any idea when it comes to his political affiliation, I never actually paid attention on his affiliation, because he would come to the area and then leave and then come.

ADV DE JAGER: Dudu stayed in the area, was she an IFP member?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Dudu never stayed in the area.

ADV DE JAGER: Beauty, his fiancee?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I never used to see Dudu in any political meetings whether IFP or ANC.

ADV DE JAGER: I am not talking about Dudu, I am talking about Martin's fiancee who had this child with him, his girlfriend, Martin's girlfriend.

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, I am referring.

ADV DE JAGER: Her name was Beauty, isn't that so?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Now was she an IFP member?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, I didn't know.

ADV DE JAGER: Didn't you tell us that in your area the people of the two parties were flocking together, they visited each other and you knew, it was obvious to which party you would belong?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And to which party, with whom did she associated, with the IFP's or the ANC's?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: As I have already explained that we will know how a person or what political organisation a person belonged, by associating with other people who were in that organisation, but with Beauty, she was working outside the area and sometimes she would stay wherever she is working and come back weekends and she never associated with people from any political organisation.

ADV DE JAGER: And Martin's death had nothing to do with politics as far as you know, there was no rumour that he was killed because he belonged to a certain political party?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, I didn't hear any rumour.

ADV DE JAGER: And these people coming from Umlazi, they didn't accuse you or the ANC that you had killed Martin because he was a political opponent?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: All I know is that they accused me of his death and as to what reason they had in order to accuse me of Martin's death, I don't know.

ADV DE JAGER: Now the deceased in this case, Dudu, the woman that you had killed with the stone, throwing the stone at her head, there is no dispute now, we are talking about her now, did she belong to the IFP?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: At the time, I didn't have full information about her political affiliation.

ADV DE JAGER: So why did you kill her, it was no political reasons then?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: The reason she was killed is because she brought the people who came from Umlazi to the area to actually point at me or us.

ADV DE JAGER: So the only reason why you killed her was because she came with the people from Umlazi?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: The aim was to kill all of them, the only reason she was the only one killed, is because she couldn't run faster, but the aim was to kill all of them.  It was so unfortunate that she couldn't run faster than the others, because the decision was taken that the reason they came, they came because they wanted to kill.

ADV DE JAGER: Who did they want to kill, you?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And for what reason did they want to kill you?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I don't know, I think they can explain this much better than me, what I did ask them is that why they came from Umlazi to my area.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, and what did they say?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: They said Amos and Nococanya came and told them that they knew the person who had Martin's hand.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry for interrupting.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  Mr Cele, you gave evidence and you have just given evidence again that the family of Martin Ngcobo was told by Nococanya and Amos Cele that they could get their hand from you.

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: My instructions, Mr Cele, are that this is not true.  Further, my instructions are that it is true that Kanyo or Beauty and Amos Cele went to Umlazi looking for Martin Ngcobo because he had been missing for two days or more and they went to Umlazi to look for him and they did not find him and they came back to Inanda.  It is not true that they had told the family of Martin Ngcobo that the arm and the leg could be found at Inanda, because at that stage when they went to Umlazi, they did not know that Martin Ngcobo had died.  Do you have any comment on what I have just said?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I do not have any information whether what they are saying is true or not, but I was told by those people who came from Umlazi that Amos and Nococanya came and told them that they could find Martin's hand.

MS THABETHE: Where and when did they tell you this?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: When we were questioning them at the meeting, when we were questioning them about why they came and how they came.

MS THABETHE: My instructions with regard to the questioning in the hills are that the question you asked as who told them that you had killed Martin Ngcobo, that is the question you asked them and not all the other questions that you have stated that you asked.  What is your comment to that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Who said so?

MS THABETHE: It is my instructions Mr Cele, can you answer the question.  Did you ask who they had got it from that you had killed Martin Ngcobo at the hill, or didn't you?

CHAIRPERSON: The people that you questioned during the "People's Court" proceedings?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, that is not true.

MS THABETHE: You also stated in your evidence that at the hill you found arms from the people you were questioning.  Do you remember that evidence?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, I do remember that.

MS THABETHE: From whom did you get these arms?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: One came from Bonny, the other one came from Ernest and the third one from one, a very light in complexion guy who had a perm in his head, I don't remember his name.

MS THABETHE: Whereabouts in their bodies did you get these firearms?