Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

B J MPONDO: I can explain like this to you.   The problemis that Tsietsie was a member of the 3 million gang and the 3million gang was the gang that harassed the people of Maokengand the members of the ANC.  They were killing all members ofthe community and all members of the ANC.  Therefore, to end updoing what we did, was to remove the disturbance to the ANC andthe Maokeng community because at that time when the 3 milliongang was operating there was no free political activities in Maokeng.

UNKNOWN: I want you to understand here, TsietsieLeboko, the minute when he got killed, there is no way where hetried to disturb any free political activity when you killed him,he was running away.

B J MPONDO: Matters are like this.  To end up killingTsietsie, I don't know what was his aim in searching for my home,as he was a member of the 3 million gang.

UNKNOWN: What if Tsietsie came there to inform youthat the 3 million gang were to attack you?  Would you know aboutthat?

B J MPONDO: No, it was difficult for him to explainthat because he was asked how did he get to my place and whathe was coming to do and then he ran away.  Tsietsie has alreadybeen a member of the 3 million gang and he claimed that he hasresigned from the gang.  But he never did that.  He never showedthat he had resigned because one day he came together with ComradeDaniel and said they had resigned and we accept them, but he wentback, he went back into the 3 million gang and the 3 million gangalso attacked Comrade Daniel who had resigned from the 3 milliongang and he was with them.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

B J MPONDO: s u o

UNKNOWN: When we last talked you will remember thatI was trying to let you explain to the Committee about this incidentwhere you killed Leboko, how does this come in line with politics. That is where I will start with my questions.

B J MPONDO: This incident comes in line in politicsin this way.  The community of Maokeng, together with the membersof the ANC were not protected by the Government.  So I saw itnecessary that we should protect ourselves and the community bykilling this person.

UNKNOWN: You must remember that at that moment whenyou perpetrated this killing, Leboko was not at that moment harassingthe community.  When you stabbed him were you given authorityby your leaders to do that?

B J MPONDO: No, our leaders only authorised us to protectthe nation and ourselves.

UNKNOWN: That is why I ask this question becauseit must be clear to the Committee.  Your leaders didn't say toyou go and kill this person.

B J MPONDO: No, they didn't say that.

UNKNOWN: Who took the decision to kill Leboko?

B J MPONDO: We took the decision as the members of theSDU because Leboko is not honest with us because when we askedhim questions he decided to run away.

UNKNOWN: Was the decision taken by the members ofthe SDUs who were present on that day?

B J MPONDO: Yes, those who were present on that daytook the decision.

UNKNOWN: Did you perceive Leboko as someone who wasagainst you and your political organisation?

B J MPONDO: Yes, it is like that.

UNKNOWN: Why do you say that?

B J MPONDO: I say that because the activities of the3 million gang were against us because on numerous occasions whenwe held protest marches and boycotts, the 3 million gang memberswould on many occasions disturb such protest and boycotts.

UNKNOWN: Do you realise that Leboko also had parentswho loved him?

B J MPONDO: Yes, I realised that.

UNKNOWN: Now when you appear before the Committeetoday, would you say to the Committee today that this incidentof killing Leboko was okay or is it not at all okay?

B J MPONDO: No, I would say that it was not okay.

UNKNOWN: What would you say to Leboko's parents whomyou killed?

B J MPONDO: What I would ask from his parents and thecommunity at large is for them to forgive me because I didn'tdo this because I wanted to.  I was forced by the circumstancesor the situation that prevailed in Maokeng.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MATSEPE

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In your testimony you told us that you wantedto have peace in the area of Maokeng.

B J MPONDO: Yes, it is like that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you not think that Tsietsie when comingto you that day, and stating that he had resigned from the 3 milliongang, didn't you think that he was going to promote your needfor peace in the area?

B J MPONDO: What brought Tsietsie to us on numerousoccasions, that is the claim that he didn't want to take partin the activities of the 3 million gang.  It was for the secondtime that he came with this request.  He did it the first time,claimed that he had resigned, but he went back to 3 million againand he also took part when they attacked one of our comrades,that is Daniel, together with the 3 million gang.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was Tsietsie, the deceased, ever a memberof the Youth League previously?

B J MPONDO: No, I don't carry any knowledge of that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you close to him?

B J MPONDO: No, I only came to know him when he wasa member of the 3 million gang.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In your own mind, what do you think couldhave prompted him to come to your place of residence>

B J MPONDO: I am not sure what brought him to my place.
Really I don't know what influenced him or forced him to cometo my place.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You further testified that when he was withyou and the other members you had not or you filed to establishexactly the purpose of his visit to you, but all the same youkilled him, you remember that?

B J MPONDO: Yes, that's what we wanted to clarify whyhe came to visit us when we were on the way to get home, but hecouldn't answer us.  What he tried to do was to run away.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In what manner did you ask him about his visit?

B J MPONDO: One of our comrades asked him how did heget to my place and who was with him when he got there.  And thenhe tried to run away.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What I am driving at is, was he politely askedor was he asked within anger?

B J MPONDO: No, he wasn't intimidated.  He was politelyasked.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Who asked him?

B J MPONDO: One of my comrades but I can't rememberhis name.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was he asked by only one person?

B J MPONDO: Yes, only one person asked him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Are you saying to us that only one questionfrom one person made him run away without any anger whatsoever?

B J MPONDO: Yes, only one person asked him and he askedhim politely.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How many comrades were there in total?

B J MPONDO: There were many comrades at that time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Estimated number?

B J MPONDO: I can't estimate.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Could there have been more than 20, less than3, more than 10, less than 9?

B J MPONDO: There were more than 20, yes, we were morethan 20.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And I want to believe all of you at the timewhen he was asked this question by one person, you were all concentratingon him?

B J MPONDO: No, we were still on the way, we were stillwalking.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Whilst walking?

B J MPONDO: Which question?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The question that you put to him what madehim come to you and then he ran away.

B J MPONDO: Yes, we were still on the way walking towardsmy place.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Where in particular amongst the 20 of you washe placed when this question was put?]

B J MPONDO: He was next to me and the other comrades.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Wouldn't you say there was due to your numberand due to the fact that he was from the 3 million gang, therewas enough intimidation on him at the time?

B J MPONDO: I am not sure about that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In your application which you filled in foramnesty, page 4 thereof, you stated the following
  "Secondly, they were having the support of the previousregime, SAP and former Maokeng Council, the Mayor was Mr CaswellQweqwe".
You remember that?

B J MPONDO: Yes, I can remember that.