Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-04

MONDLI WISEMAN NGXONGO: I would like to put it before the committee that on those parts where I did give false information, I would like to ask for forgiveness and apology for doing that, and I would like to promise that what I've said now does clarify the truth and covers everything that I didn't put in my application.

MR OOSTHUIZEN: Thank you, Madam Chair, I haven't got any further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OOSTHUIZEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, we now give you an opportunity to put any questions to Mr Ngxongo, if you have any.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, I do have certain questions, Ms Chairperson, but in the light of the fact that this evidence is, I wasn't appraised of it in any form whatsoever, although it's largely corroborative of my client's version, there are certain aspects which I need to consider in the light of the broader evidence which has been given.   I don't think I'm going to be very long, but I would like an opportunity to consider my position and consult with my client in that regard.   I'm not ready, in other words, to proceed immediately.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not, Mr Wills, we both did not know what the applicant was going to say.   I am sure, on the basis of what has been said and on the basis of your previous instructions, you should be able to put questions, if any, to Mr Ngxongo.

MR WILLS: Yes.   What my position is, Chairperson, is that I, in preparation for this case, expected this witness to be hostile to my client's version as a result of what was completed on the application form.   I now find that he's very supportive of my client's version, and in regard to the actual incident itself, I've got one or two questions that I need to clear up, which I would be in a position to put to him immediately, but what I feel would be important for me to exercise my client's mandate properly, is to secure further corroborative evidence from this witness, which will support this particular client's case, and the other two persons whom I represent in these hit squad hearings in relation to the general operations and instructions of hit squads, and in that regard I just need to look at certain things, and I would also like to take some advice on that.  In particular, I'm concerned about instructions, for example you'll be aware, having sat in the other issues, the issues of the indiscriminate killings, what the attitude was, and more general information about how these hit squads operated, because this witness is operating in a different area in relation to - and under different circumstances, so I would perceive that the evidence that he might have in that regard would be seen by the committee who considers the application in the other matter that I'm involved with, as being quite supportive and quite independent, as opposed to the evidence of the three who've basically been together all along, and that's basically my position, but I'm sure, in that regard, it's a very short aspect.   I don't know if you're intending to finish, I don't know, if we could finish tonight, but I don't see that we can, I believe that you were expecting to finish at 7:00, but there's still argument to come and there's also certain questions from my learned friend, Ms Thabete, so I don't know if we would, in any event, finish this evening.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, I'm aware that Ms Thabete still also has to be afforded an opportunity to put questions to Mr Ngxongo, however we had thought that you would be able to proceed with any cross-examination you had with Mr Ngxongo, so that we can then be assured that the matter would be capable of being finalised tomorrow before 12 o'clock, that being the time when this committee will have to adjourn.   We are very loath at having to sit with a part-heard matter, because it is extremely difficult to reconvene the panel with a view of finalising matters such as these, particularly where we are dealing with applicants who are held in custody.   We have to be extremely sensitive to the plight that they face whilst they remain in custody and we are unable to reconvene.   I would have thought that your client also being in the same category as that of Mr Ngxongo, you'd also take this opportunity to take quick instructions in order to be able to protect his interests sufficiently.   As you say, the version given by Mr Ngxongo during his viva voce evidence seems to support the version already given by Mr Mbambo, if I recall, in Ermelo.    We have been sitting and hearing these applications for the past year, and would really want to conclude these Caprivi hearings.   There is nothing new I would expect of you to obtain from any of your clients, particularly with regard to the general operation of the hit squad.   If I can recall the evidence already tendered before us by you, I think there would be very little of you to take instructions on, particularly from Mr Mbambo, who is involved in this particular incident.   However, if you insist that you must be afforded this opportunity, we will reluctantly grant you that indulgence, reluctantly.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Ms Chairperson, if I could have, I know that I'm not going to be very long and I mean I've got a simple position, if we are going to finish tonight, well then I can understand the reason for me to go ahead right now, and in that event I would at least request a short adjournment in order to consult with my client before I proceed.   If, on the other hand, we are not going to finish today, then I would prefer to take a bit more time over the matter and consider, as you know, the voluminous documents that I have in relation to these hearings.   But, in any event, what I can guarantee you, Ms Chairperson, is that when we do reconvene, I will be no longer than half an hour.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't think you really are faced with voluminous documents in this matter.   You and I are both very familiar with these hearings, and this incident is an incident that involves documents which are not more than 30 pages, the testimony of Mr Mbambo that was given in Ermelo, which I'm sure you already are privy to and you have had an opportunity of reading, notwithstanding the fact that the application of Mr Ngxongo, as it stood then, before his viva voce evidence today, would have been different from the version given by Mr Mbambo in Ermelo.    So I would be surprised if you still have to go through the volumes of documents you are alleging that you have to go through.

MR WILLS: I'm not suggesting, Ms Chairperson, that I have to go through volumes of documents.   What I'm suggesting is that there is a lot of evidence in these cases, and for me to just go off the cuff, it might end up in me missing an opportunity where I can get certain corroborative evidence, but if - I'm quite happy, if you could give me a short time then, just to consult with Mbambo and then to take my cross-examination further.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, we really don't want to be perceived to be obstructive to how you want to discharge your mandate, we indeed would want every lawyer to do just what you want to do, discharge his or her mandate to the best of his or her abilities, but that does not mean that we should also not take cognisance of the short lifespan that we have in this committee.    So we will grant you your indulgence.  This matter will then stand adjourned until tomorrow morning, and hope that you will be responsible, as you've been always, and not take too much of our time that will end up making us unable to finalise and dispose of this matter before 12 o'clock tomorrow... (intervention).

MR WILLS: I'm much obliged, thank you, Ms Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...bearing in mind that we still have to hear Ms Thabete.   I don't know whether Ms Thabete cannot be allowed to put her questions whilst you take instructions from your clients.   Would you have any objection to Ms Thabete being given an opportunity of putting her questions before you?