Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-29

PAULUS MTHWANA: I was part of the people who defended the community.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you defend the community?

PAULUS MTHWANA: We countered attacks from the A Team as well as from the Boers who would be in the company of the A Team.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mthwana, just to clarify, you were never a member of the SDUs, is that correct?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I have just explained that I was an ANC member who defended the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthwana, stop playing games.  Your attorney asked you a simple question, give us a simple answer.

PAULUS MTHWANA: I was an ANC member, involved in protecting the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying you were not a member of the SDU, because you were asked:  "Were you a member of the SDU or not?"  Now a simple yes or no will suffice.

PAULUS MTHWANA: I was a Martial and that structure fell under the SDU.  I was involved in protecting the community.  It is clear from page 1 that I was a martial.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm aware that I've seen it.  What did you do as a martial?

PAULUS MTHWANA: We were present at meetings to safeguard  the people at the meeting as well as to protect the community in general.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all you did as a Martial?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I also took part in activities that ...(indistinct) assisted the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Like what?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Like distributing posters as well as pamphlets.

CHAIRPERSON: As a Martial, what was your main duty?

PAULUS MTHWANA: It was to ensure that there was order in meetings as well as the protection of the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, from 1983 to 1993, was there ever a big march in Chesterville or in Durban for that matter, organised by the UDF or the ANC?  Particularly in 1990.

PAULUS MTHWANA: There are too many to mention.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Did you march?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all you did at such marches, march?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I would play the role of marshalling.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, why didn't you say that when I asked what all did you do as a martial?  Because wasn't that the main idea of martial, to control the marches, like long big marches, control attendances at meetings, not so?  Isn't it?

PAULUS MTHWANA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now just now you answered to a question from your attorney as to whether you knew the area of Chesterville and you said as a main man you did.  What did you mean by that?  I think you referred to Mr Gumede as a main man.  What did you mean by that?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Mr Chairperson, I do not quite understand the question.  Please repeat that question.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you mean by calling Mr Gumede a main man?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I am explaining that he is the person who issued the order and he also is the person who issued the order.

MR LAX: We had a repetition of the same thing.  You said he's the person who issued the order and he's also the person who issued the order.

INTERPRETER: The mistake is mine.  I beg your pardon.  The applicant said Mr Gumede was a member of the Executive as well as the fact that he is the one who issued the order.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mthwana, why was it necessary for you to take Mr Saga Gumede to eMbali?

PAULUS MTHWANA: He was the person who knew the area because I did not know where we were supposed to collect the firearms.

MS MOHAMED: Okay.  I'm presuming when you say he's the person who knew the area, the area you're referring to is eMbali?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes.

MS MOHAMED: Okay and you earlier said that you had fetched the firearms from eMbali and then what happened to those firearms?

PAULUS MTHWANA: They remained with Mr Gumede.

MS MOHAMED: Which Mr Gumede is this?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Saga Gumede.

MS MOHAMED: Now, Mr Mthwana, I'm sure you might have covered this earlier, but why was there a need to bring these firearms to Chesterville?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I explained that it was in order to protect the community which was not safe.

MS MOHAMED: Now as a means of clarification, when you said to protect the community, whom did the community need to be protected from?

PAULUS MTHWANA: The community was predominantly ANC at the time and they were protected by Marshals and other people.

MR LAX: The question was, who were they protected from?  Who was attacking the community that they needed protection?  That was the question.

PAULUS MTHWANA: There were vigilante groups such as the A Team who were involved in attacking and killing people at night.

CHAIRPERSON: You talk about vigilante groups, were there more than one?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I am not really in a position to say whether there were many groups because they would be - they would attack the community at night and at most these times they would be wearing balaclavas and they would be in the company of the police.

MR LAX: Did you know Zwe Ntuni?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes, I knew him.

MR LAX: Sorry?

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes, I knew him.

MR LAX: He was killed by the A Team, you say.

PAULUS MTHWANA: I don't know.

MR LAX: Well, what do you mean you don't know?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I was in prison that time he was killed.

MR LAX: But you refer to him in your statement, page 12.

PAULUS MTHWANA: Yes.

MR LAX: You talk about his death at the hands of presumably the A Team.  It's not clear from here but ...

CHAIRPERSON: What page is ?

MR LAX: Page 12.  Right?

PAULUS MTHWANA: No, it's not right, but I know me, I was in prison that time, I don't know nothing about Zwe, who killed him.

MR LAX: Well where did Mr Mbatha get this information from, if you didn't give it to him?  Did he just make it up and then write his own affidavit and then get you to sign it?

PAULUS MTHWANA: No.

MR LAX: Well did you tell him this or didn't you.

PAULUS MTHWANA: No, listen.  I know that there was a vigilante group in operation, but I do not know how Zwe was killed because at the time I was in prison.

MR LAX: You see, you say here in paragraph 2
"There were many others as these gangs who were operating in Chesterville."
What gangs were you referring to there?

PAULUS MTHWANA: In this affidavit, I referred to the A Team and Zweli Saga Gumede.  I do not know what gangs you are referring to.

MR LAX: Well it's your affidavit.  I'm just trying to understand what you were saying.  These are your words, they're not my words.  Very well, we'll just leave it there.  Please continue Ms Mohamed.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you.

PAULUS MTHWANA: I do not understand.

MR LAX: Well, if you're not going to answer my question, then we may as well just continue.

PAULUS MTHWANA: I do want to respond to the question, but I do not understand it.

MR LAX: I'll make it simple for you.  In your affidavit here at paragraph 2 on page 12 you refer to gangs in the plural, in other words there was more than one gang.  In the one preceding that you refer to the A Team.  The question I want to know is, you're referring to gangs in the plural.  What other gangs were operating in Chesterville at that time?

PAULUS MTHWANA: The only gang I know of is the A Team.  I do not know about the others.

MR LAX: Please continue Ms Mohamed.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Lax.  Mr Mthwana, after the firearms were returned to Chesterville and left with Mr Saga Gumede, what happened to the car that you had stolen?

PAULUS MTHWANA: It was recovered in Inanda.

MR LAX: Well how did it get to Inanda?

PAULUS MTHWANA: It was taken there by Nhlanhla Gumede.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED

MS THABETHE: Mr Mthwana, was there any relationship between Saga Gumede and Nhlanhla Gumede?

PAULUS MTHWANA: I do not know about any other things ...(indistinct) relations.

MS THABETHE: What position did Saga Gumede hold in the ANC?

PAULUS MTHWANA: He was in the Executive Committee, but I am not sure of his position.

MS THABETHE: And what about Nhlanhla Gumede, what position did he hold?