Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-12

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not know about that, I hear it for the first time, it's news to me.

MR STRYDOM: You stated that you saw a taxi or some kind of vehicle coming from KwaMadala back towards the robots, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Vehicles?

MR STRYDOM: Buses or - you said buses came from KwaMadala towards ...(intervention)

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, that's what I said.

MR STRYDOM: What kind of buses were these?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It was the Vaal bus, Vaal buses.

MR STRYDOM: But at what stage was this?  Was that after the police vehicles moved towards KwaMadala, or when was this?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, they had left a long while ago.  That is when I saw these buses coming from the direction of the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these buses coming from the hostel?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They were coming from the hostel.  I am not certain where they'd been parked there, but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Did you see them coming out of the hostel?  That's what I want to find out.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, you can see the street clearly.

MR STRYDOM: Were you still standing on your roof?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No.  I did not spend a long time on the rooftop.

MR STRYDOM: So were you standing close to your house somewhere?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I was standing by my lawn.  Even if I stand at the back of the house I can still see the road clearly.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but you can never see the entrance to KwaMadala Hostel from your house, isn't it so?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am not talking about the gate.  They were coming from the direction of the hostel, they were on the street.

MR STRYDOM: So you can't say that these buses came from KwaMadala, they might as well have come from Iscor, because if you follow that route you get to the main entrance of Iscor.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, that is possible, but they were coming from that direction.

MR STRYDOM: But in your statement, maybe in this regard, you said
"Two white Vaal Triangle taxis were also leaving out of KwaMadala Hostel with people in."
Did you say that to the person who took the statement?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is not my statement, I did not say that, never.  That's not what I said.

MR STRYDOM: What's the relevance of these buses, do you try to insinuate that they took people that were part of the attack to some place, why do you mention the buses?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I saw these buses.  I'm mentioning them because I saw them.

MR STRYDOM: One last aspect.  At the criminal trial many people from Boipatong testified, people living in the same street as you testified, also people from Bafokeng Street.  Now I want to put to you, they didn't see police or white people participating in the attack and what you are saying you say on your own.  Can you give an explanation why the other people didn't see but you saw it?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, I must have missed something, saw what?

MR STRYDOM: The other people didn't see police participation.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I see.

MR STRYDOM: So I want to put it to him that you stand very alone in your testimony, is there anything you want to comment on about that?

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, Mr Strydom, can I get it clear, are you saying that the people said they didn't see or they don't mention police participation?

MR STRYDOM: It's a bit of a difficult statement because so many people testified, some people looked outside and they didn't see, some people never looked outside, they can't say if there was any participation.  I don't want to bind myself by individuals because they are literally, I think a hundred of them.

ADV SIGODI: I think in fairness to the witness, I mean it insinuates that what you're saying is that there were no police - the other people are saying that there were no police and I think you should put it clearly that they are saying that some said that they didn't see and some do not mention that there were police.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, thank you.
	I want to put to you that the witnesses that testified at the criminal trial, that looked outside and made certain observations, those people didn't see the police or the police vehicles in the township, during the attack.   So what I put to you is you stand alone in your testimony.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR STRYDOM: ...(indistinct) so far.  Well I'm referring to the criminal trial.

CHAIRPERSON: So far, yes.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The people who were unwilling to testify to the effect that there were police are just similar to those who don't mention them at all, but the situation then was very bad, people were unwilling to testify because the police will pick you up and take you wherever and assault you.  That was the order of the old government.  It was only after the new government dispensation that things improved.

MR STRYDOM: Do you say that there are still witnesses that are too scared to come forward to say what they have seen, but they've told you that they've seen police accompanying the attackers?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Because they did not make statements even then they are still intimidated to do so, even now.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know who they are scared for, or what they are scared of?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: The situation remains the same, the police are still in force, they have not been removed.  They are still the same police.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Baloyi, in your statement, the one that Mr Strydom has been going through with you, which you were supposed to have made to the police, the following is said
"I saw some of the white people shooting at the houses opposite mine.  I can't say that it was policemen."
Do you know anything about this statement?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I do not remember.  I don't recall whether I did mention that.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't remember whether you said this?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: What is it that you don't remember?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: What I remembered is that they shot at Singwane's house.

CHAIRPERSON: What is said here is the following
"I saw some of the white people shooting at the houses opposite mine.  I can't say that it was policemen."
Now do you know anything ...(intervention)

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I do not recall, I don't recall that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Lowies?

MR LOWIES: Thank you, Chairman, can I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, bearing in mind that some of your time has been consumed by the application.

MR LOWIES: I'll bear that in mind, Chairperson.
	Mr Baloyi, I have to put to you that your house was probably attacked, but my instructions are that the manner in which you describe and the people involved in this attack, were not involved and regarding that your evidence is suspect and that my clients do not believe you.  
	The first aspect that I would like to find out from you is ...(intervention)

MR BERGER: Chairperson, with all due respect, to put that kind of a statement to the witness, how is he supposed to respond to it?  There's no indication in what regard he's not being believed.

CHAIRPERSON: He is about to do that.  Aren't you?

MR LOWIES: That's correct.

MR BERGER: I beg your pardon.

MR LOWIES: The first aspect is, is it correct that at the time of the attack you were 72 years of age?  You're now 79.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am saying the people who were taking this statement wrote as they pleased.  I told them that I was born in 1920, on the 7th of February and if they chose to write something else, really that's not my problem.

MR LAX: Mr Baloyi, please, just listen to the question and answer the question.  If you were born in 1920, then you would be 79 now and you would have been 72 at the time of the attack.  It's plain arithmetic.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I don't know, I did not study mathematics.