Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-02-17

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: I did explain yesterday that I had various places where I stayed.  I had many cells in Soweto, different cells in Soweto.

MR RICHARD: Were you ever arrested by the South African Police between the date of the murder and 1994, you personally?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: When was that?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: In 1990.

MR RICHARD: Were you ever questioned about the late Sicelo Dhlomo's death?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: I was only arrested because I had a firearm in my possession.  I was never asked about any other thing politically.

MR RICHARD: Now when you were finally in Lusaka, did you make a written report, in writing?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: You mean what now?

MR RICHARD: Sometime after July you say you went to Lusaka and there you met Grasskopf and a report, did you make any report in writing?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: With regards to Sicelo's incident or what?

MR RICHARD: Yes.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: No, I did not write any report, I only gave him a verbal report.

MR RICHARD: Was that normal procedure?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: The problem here is we did not have sufficient time because I had to come back here, I had already been in Lusaka for quite some time.  I had no time to write any report because I was hurry to come back.

MR RICHARD: Now if you go to pages 58 through to 66 of the bundle, there is a collection of news clippings from both local and overseas newspapers, all within the week after the murder, are you aware of  that?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Please repeat the last part of your question.

MR RICHARD: Are you aware of the various news clippings in the bundle, pages 58 to 66, all apparently, except for the first one ...(intervention)

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: I don't have the bundle with me.  Page?

MR RICHARD: 58, 59.  Now those are all a collection of news clippings from the week after the murder, the last date is the 28th of January, The Washington Post.  Did you ever read any of those press clippings at the time?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: I don't remember.  Maybe if I may go through them, read through them, that might remind me.

MR RICHARD: Did - as you said yesterday, you become aware that there were news reports of the later Sicelo Dhlomo's death, after the murder?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now isn't it obvious that taking into account that it was a widely publicised event which precipitated a funeral of about 3 000 people, that your commanders and chain of authority would become very aware that the late Sicelo Dhlomo had been murdered?  Wasn't it obvious to you that the people in Lusaka, Botswana and internally would be aware of the death of the late Sicelo Dhlomo?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: That I knew.

MR RICHARD: And you were aware that in these news clippings the implication is that the police killed the deceased.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: That I knew as well.

MR RICHARD: And you're also aware that Oliver Tambo made a public statement criticising the police over this matter.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: That I knew as well.

MR RICHARD: And notwithstanding all that, you chose to keep quiet until July or later before you then went to Lusaka to confide in one person about what the truth is, is that correct?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: I had reasons that made me to be quiet.  As I said leaving the country and coming back was not just as easy to do and I also had other commitments that I had to do and attend to.

MR RICHARD: Yesterday by ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ... other means of telling them, you didn't have to leave the country, did you?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: I did report or say yesterday that I had this communication breakdown, that is between myself and the auxiliary staff in Botswana, that brought difficulties and Botswana was once place that I could get people.  I had no other option than going to Botswana.

MR RICHARD: Now if I understood you correctly, and please correct me if I misunderstand, Mr Dumakude was your commander in South Africa?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: And you were in contact as you've said, both then and certainly in July?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: No.  I agree with some part of what you said and I disagree with the part where you mentioned that I was in contact with him, I don't think that's what I said.  In fact I did not say that until he came.

MR RICHARD: Well then when did you start contact with your commander after the murder?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: As I said that he came and met with me on another mission, the one I told you about yesterday.

MR RICHARD: ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not activated.

MR RICHARD: When was that?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: If my memory serves me right I'm not too sure as to the time here, but it could have been around - you see here, I'm not certain about what I'm, I think the beginning of June.

MR RICHARD: Now what other command structures were you in contact with within the country at the time?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: As I said my reports ...(intervention)

MR RICHARD: Your reports of what?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: My commander would command me from outside the country, not within.

MR RICHARD: So that means you were left alone without any means of communication, without any chain of command, without any instructions for many, many months on end, and without any contact with any other operatives around you in South Africa?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: No, that's not the case.

MR RICHARD: Well, I then go back to the question, who else were you in communication with in South Africa in January 1988?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Here in South Africa in January 1988, the one in command?

MR RICHARD: Who else were you in communication with of either your own level or above you?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: No-one.  Here in South Africa there was none.

MR RICHARD: Your last two questions are mutually exclusive, you say yes, you were in contact with other people and no you weren't besides January, February, March.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: What you've asked me was who else was I in contact with within the country, and I explained to you that I had commanders that were outside the country and I would take my commands from them except the time when Dumakude arrived here as I said.

MR RICHARD: I don't understand, but I'll leave the point, but I would like to know who else during the period January, February, March, April 1988 you were in communication with in South Africa, whether they were your commanders or not.

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: I said that there was none, I was not in communication with anyone here in South Africa at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you just sitting silently for four months?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: If I may go back, yesterday I did explain that I had other duties that I was conducting or doing, I also had other units and my mind was preoccupied with training of these units.  If it was not necessary for me to communicate with them, I would not communicate with them, I would continue with the work I was involved in or engaged in.

MR RICHARD: Did you have no sense of urgency at all to let your party, your organisation to know the true facts as soon as possible, but particularly in the light of the fact that an entirely incorrect perception was being propagated and promoted?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: It was necessary, but unfortunately the situation was not conducive for me,

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Next point.  If I were to tell ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But what worries me a little on this is I rely only on what I have seen in these press cuttings which you have been referred to, and from those it would appear that the deceased, apart from having been a member of this cell, was an extremely high-profile young man who had received a great deal of publicity on television, radio elsewhere in the world, that he was an important figure for the freedom struggle, would you agree with that?

JOHN ITHUMALENG DUBE: Yes, I do agree with that.