Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Chairperson, I cannot recall what the plan was, but I can recall that during the arrest I ran around the Toyota to the other side of the vehicle.

MR WILLS: Sorry, sorry ...

MR VISSER: Can the witness just finish his answer Mr Chairman?

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, with respect, I am going on to the circumstances of the arrest later, which the witness is starting to describe and I just want to concentrate at this stage on the briefing prior to the arrest.  That was my answer, that was my question, should I say.  I am concentrating on the briefing, we will get to the actual arrest and your role in the arrest.  I just want to try you to recall and give us as much detail as possible about the briefing prior to the arrest.  What was said there?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Chairperson, I have already said that Mr Botha gave us the information or I think it was Mr Botha, gave us the information that members of C1 would bring the Commander of this specific unit or section to a rendezvous point at Battery Beach and that possibly other members of this unit would also be present.

MR WILLS: Did you expect that Ms Khubeka would be possibly present at the time?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No Chairperson, we did not expect that.

MR WILLS: You see, because, yes because in Mr Coetzer's statement he indicates at paragraph 7 and that is after page 101 of his statement, that the leader of the ANC cell which had been infiltrated by Jimmy Mbane was a woman, so is it not possible that the leader, your reference to the leader was in fact Ms Khubeka?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Well, who was the leader?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I don't know him personally sir, I do not know his name.

MR WILLS: You never heard of his name?

CHAIRPERSON: Which paragraph are you referring to?  7?  Page 102?

MR WILLS: I don't have the page numbering on my ...

CHAIRPERSON: It is page 102 according to mine.  This doesn't talk about the Commander being a woman, maybe it is ...

MR WILLS: I will read you the passage, just so that it is clear.
"... I was informed by one of the Security Branch members that the leader of the ANC cell who was infiltrated by Jimmy, was a woman.  The plan was to question her.  In order to do that, Jimmy tried to lure her to a place where we would arrest her."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it is quite clear from that that as far as Mr Coetzer was concerned, the expected Commander was a woman?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct Mr Chairperson, Mr Coetzer may have been under that impression, I don't know, I don't know why he would draw that inference, because that was not my impression Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: It is not the sort of thing one would make a mistake about, would it, a woman or not?  I mean if one is talking about the leader or the Commander, we have always, this whole hearing have talked about the Commander as if it were a man, to say it is a woman, it would be unusual, unless he really believed so, it is not the sort of thing that you just make a mistake about?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chairperson, according to my information, Ms Khubeka accommodated terrorists and she had contact with them.  According to my information she was not a Commander.

MR WILLS: But it appears from your answer to my previous question that you had no information at all about who this so-called leader was, yourself?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, I did not, I did not know him.  I cannot recall that anybody ever informed me whether it was a woman or a man, or mentioned the name to me.

MR LAX: Might it be that when people spoke about a leader, you just assumed that it was a man?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is possible.

MR LAX: They may in fact have been referring to Khubeka and you just made the assumption it was someone else?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is possible Chairperson.

MR LAX: You see Mr Coetzer is talking about the leader of a cell, of an ANC cell, that is potentially different to the leader of an MK unit, or whatever?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Thank you.   Obviously also the thing that I want to emphasise here which I will relate to other aspects of my question later on, was that he clearly says in that paragraph that the plan was to interrogate her.

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, that was not the briefing that I was privy to.  Ms Khubeka, there was no plan to arrest her.  The reason for the operation was to apprehend the leader of the section or unit or cell.

MR WILLS: Yes, was it the objective to interrogate the leader of the cell?  I know you are in dispute about as to who that actual leader was, but the plan was to interrogate the leader, to arrest for the purposes of interrogation?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct, to obtain further information.

MR WILLS: Yes, and the interrogation was obviously, you had been briefed, it was going to take place at Winkelspruit?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now, I also want to refer you to Mr Taylor's evidence where he says ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, not so much evidence, but his statement or affidavit?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, Mr Taylor's statement, where he also is clear ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, do you have a reference?

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson, I am starting at page 4.

CHAIRPERSON: Volume 1, it is part of the application, the statement that was attached to Mr Taylor's application, yes.

MR WILLS: I am referring to the incident, 9, halfway down the page on the third paragraph where he also says that on a later stage an askari, Jimmy Mbane, informed us that he had arranged that the Khubeka woman would be brought to us at the old Railway Police shooting range near Winkelspruit.  He was also, you must concede by that, expecting that Khubeka woman to be brought to the shooting range?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I understand that from his statement, yes Chairperson.   That is what he stated.

MR WILLS: And obviously from the answer to your previous question, if anybody was taken to the Winkelspruit shooting range, it would be for the purposes of interrogation?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Can you repeat that please?

MR WILLS: If anybody was taken on that occasion to the Winkelspruit shooting range, it would be for the purposes of interrogation?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct, for interrogation to obtain further possible information.

MR WILLS: Yes, so we can assume that what Taylor means is that the Khubeka woman was going to be picked up, she is going to be taken to the Winkelspruit shooting range and she was going to be interrogated?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, that is what I understand from his statement.

MR WILLS: I want to refer you to Radebe's affidavit and hopefully from our point of view, it will also be his evidence.   Just bear with me Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Volume 1, page 116 I am informed by Mr Visser.

MR WILLS: At paragraph 51 ...

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, that is page 119, Volume 1?

MR WILLS: I will just read you the paragraph, it is rather short and then I will put my question to you.
"... we did then go to a house."
	Sorry, I am going to start from paragraph 50.
"... in the meantime the woman who lived at the  house had become suspicious and asked to see the comrades again because she now had messages to give them.  We then realised that she was going to become suspicious and could probably cause problems if she spoke about this incident.  One of the members of the Security Branch in Durban then told us to fetch the woman and take her to them."
	Just before we go on here, it is clear from Radebe's evidence that he got an instruction from somebody in the Security Branch, Durban to fetch this woman and obviously in this instance, he is referring to Khubeka, would you agree with me?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.