Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

MR LAMEY: You cannot recall whether a typed version was prepared beforehand, you cannot recall?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: No, I cannot exactly recall what the course of events was, but I recall that he called us into his office and took the statements from us, but the typed version, I cannot recall how it was signed exactly, whether it was directly thereafter.

MR LAMEY: I also see that your statement was signed in Piet Retief?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: Did Brigadier Van Wyk come there?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes, he stayed quite a while in Piet Retief during the investigation, Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: Can you recall whether you saw him once or more than once?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I saw him more than once, he was there for quite some time.

MR LAMEY: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Moerane, any questions?

MR MOERANE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  With regard to what my learned friend has been asking you, is it correct that the reason why further statements had to be obtained from you and others by Brigadier Van Wyk, was that Warrant Officer Pienaar had been removed as Investigating Officer by then, as a result of objections from the representative of the families?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: That objection appears in Bundle 3(b), Chairperson, it was started in April, on the 24th of April 1989.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moerane, Volume 3(b)?

MR MOERANE: From the first page, yes.  The basis is laid in the cross-examination of Warrant Officer Pienaar, which covers a number of pages and his argument and finally a decision that he be removed.  Then of course, there were further things that happened, the car was examined by Captain Young, not so?

CHAIRPERSON: Captain, could you just repeat the name?  Young?

MR MOERANE: Young, Basil Young.

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes, I recall Captain Basil Young was there with the ballistic investigation Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: And you had to go and reconstruct this scene, do you recall that?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes Chairperson, in both instances there was a reconstruction.

MR MOERANE: Yes.   Even at that stage, you did not disclose the presence of Colonel De Kock as far as the second incident is concerned?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Let's look at your first statement in Bundle 3(a), page 1.   You mention in the second paragraph that you had certain information and you received certain instructions, and the information and the instructions are the following
"... that insurgents or the crossing of two trained ANC terrorists would take place during the evening."
	Do you see that?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I see that Chairperson, yes.

MR MOERANE: Now was that information that was obtained from your source?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, I cannot recall exactly how the information went about the two members, I have thought about this much and it could be that, I am not saying it is so, but it could be that I can recall there was information from the same source which would have said that the previous day or - people would have infiltrated there but it was cancelled later to another day, and it may be so that this confusion caused the two specific trained members, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Theron, you would agree that the information that you received, couldn't have involved many infiltrators coming in because it was decided to send a Toyota Corolla which would have a driver?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So why should you  make a mistake about two and confusing it with other information that might have been given at another time?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I cannot recall exactly during this incident Chairperson, but what I do know is that there was more than one occasion which was reported to me that infiltrations would take place which did not happen and it was cancelled.  The issue with regard to the vehicle, it was a bit small, it was on short notice that we had to arrange the transport.  We in any case did not foresee that there would be more than four people infiltrating.

MR MOERANE: But you see Mr Theron, that is the information that Mr Pienaar sent to his superiors, remember?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes, I see that in the statement.  I must just state that the information came from my informer, from me.

MR MOERANE: That is right.   So the information which formed the basis of this operation, was that two trained ANC cadres were going to infiltrate that evening?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is how it appears in the report Chairperson.  I have just explained how I view the matter, that it may also be from one of the previous incidents where specific figures were mentioned, but I cannot recall the precise detail.

MR MOERANE: Well, you see everybody who was involved in that operation and who gives a number, for instance Barnard on page 3, he also talks about "two trained ANC terrorists during that night".

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I did not see Mr Barnard's statement.

MR MOERANE: No, there it is, you can look at it now if you don't believe you.

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes, I believe you.

CHAIRPERSON: I can't understand Mr Theron, why you should think that this might be confused information?  I mean it is contained in your statement, it is contained in other people's statements, what is the problem with receiving information that two people were coming in, in your mind, what do you see as a problem in this hearing about saying that your information was that two people would infiltrate rather than four?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, there were four persons who came.  I cannot imagine what came in on that day with the information, whether it was two persons or whether this was something that came through on a previous occasion.  It is not really a problem to me, I just want to put it clearly that I obtained information on more than these two occasions that there would be infiltrations from the same source.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moerane?

MR MOERANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Ras is to the same effect on page 5 of the same Volume.   The statement taken from him on the 4th of July 1989 by Brigadier Van Wyk.  But you see the significant thing about all the statements is that there is no mention that these people would be armed, is there?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I see in the statement Chairperson, that there would be two armed ANC terrorists, I didn't have time to read the rest of the statements.

MR MALAN: Mr Moerane, I am sorry, the fourth paragraph the last sentence refers to the usually well-armed terrorists.

MR MOERANE: Mr Chairman, could my attention be directed at it.

MR MALAN: It is on this first page of Mr Theron's statement, paragraph 4, the last sentence reads
"... orders that we had to be well armed because trained terrorists were usually well armed during crossings,"
	not information but indeed the probability of being armed.

MR MOERANE: That is right.   At this stage, I was just dealing with information, particular, specific information that had been received.   You had not received information that the people, the two people would be armed?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I did not receive information that said that they would be armed specifically.

MR MOERANE: But from your past experience you believed that they might well be armed?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: I think you have already admitted that you took part in this massive collective perjury?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct.

MR MOERANE: With regard to the further investigation of this matter and the sequel to the first incident, did you receive further information, in other words after the 8th, from your source?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct.  Once again, I received information after the 8th, that there would be another infiltration.