Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I will tell you what I can say.  I went on the evidence of Mr Isgak Hardien regarding the fact that there were no persons present at the time of the detonation of the limpet mine.  Furthermore I will rely on Mr van Zyl's opinion with regard to the instruction that he gave for the limpet mine to be detonated because it would fit in to the stipulations at the in-house which were given to him.  I would have to rely upon that.

GEORGE BIZOS: And close your eyes to the fact that people were injured and that in all probability the lights were on and anyone who had eyes to see must have realised that there may be people in the hall at the time that the explosion went off.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's your opinion Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, but you know it may sound a clever answer to you Mr Botha to say that it's an opinion ...(intervention)

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Not at all.

GEORGE BIZOS: You are telling us that you accept what Mr Hardien said and what Mr van Zyl said because it suits your case but you are not prepared to face any objective facts that may be found to be proved as a throwing doubt on the credibility of Hardien or the credibility of Van Zyl and above all your credibility.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I am not saying that I have to fight for my credibility here.  I have given you the facts as I have experienced them and I must rely upon the two opinions of those who were involved with me at the scene.  I cannot take it any further than that.  I don't want to enter into an argument with you.  I am telling you that this was my experience of it and I cannot say anymore.  If you tell me that the lights were on and you have a witness who can verify this then I will have to say Mr Bizos so be it, that's your opinion.  Then I will accept it for what it is worth.  But I cannot accept it as having been so in essence.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Bizos.  Mr Botha it seems to me that you are not hearing the question properly.  The question is, if people were in there and we know, let's put it this way, you yourself say people were injured ...(intervention)

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes I heard that.

MR LAX: They must have been in the building to get injured.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Not necessarily, they could have been most probably - I am not sure, that's why I am not prepared to commit myself to that.  They could possibly have been ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Have you see the photographs of the damage?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes I have.

MR LAX: They could not have been injured on the outside of the building from the nature of the damage.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That could have been glass Sir, I have seen explosive scenes where detonation took place where it could have been glass.  It could have been a number of factors.  It could have been the vacuum of the bomb as such.  I am not sure of the injuries as such.

CHAIRPERSON: But it's not a question of committing yourself to whether the lights were on or not because you don't know - you say look I can't remember whether the lights were on or not.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if somebody comes along let's say whose evidence, who is a very good witness, whose evidence is accepted and says "well the lights were on", now you don't have to commit yourself to that situation.  If you can't remember they may well be on.  From what you have told us, you said that you were sitting in that vehicle after you went around the block, you came a bit closer and then Hardien, people came out and Hardien mentioned a couple of names and then it was determined that all the people must have left.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you operated on that.  But that doesn't mean that because those people were out that the lights were off.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I accept that Sir but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: There might have been other people, there might have been a watchman there, there might be a caretaker there.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I accept what you are saying but Mr Bizos is trying to get me to agree that at some stage I should have foreseen the possibility that there were people - because of the lights that were on, I should foresee the possibility that there were people at that present time in the building as such.

MR LAX: Look that may be the case, that's why I was trying to help you.  He is asking you some questions, listen to each question, don't think five questions ahead and then you find yourself getting stuck in a problem that isn't there.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I accept that Mr Lax but I did hear the second part of his question, that's why I am reacting the way I am.

MR LAX: Yes but it's all premised on the fact that there were people there, there were people injured.  He accepts that you don't remember that the lights were on.  He has no alternative.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I accept that, but it's all got to do with my credibility now.  So if I do admit to what Mr Bizos says it could influence my credibility which I am not prepared to do.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let's carry on.  I will ask the questions that I am accustomed to asking and you can give the answers that you want and we will argue at the end  whether any reliance can be placed on your evidence.
	Now which is the front and which is the back of this building?  And in relation to that is the parking ground in front or at the back of the building?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: In all honesty I cannot remember now at this moment in time.  I can't.  As I said to you I explicitly took it from the way Mr Hardien and Mr van Zyl conducted them at this specific scene and I've got to go according to that.  I did not attend the in loco as ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: We accept that.

MR VAN ECK: Chairperson, Mr Bizos did not let him finish, I think ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He said he did not attend the inspection in loco.

GEORGE BIZOS: I apologise for that.  Yes you did not attend the inspection in loco.  Now if in fact there were motor cars in the parking ground, and there is evidence of damage to those vehicles as a result of the explosion, albeit minor damage, would you accept that not all the cars that were parked in what you call the parking ground, had left at the time of the explosion?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: On the basis that you have put it to me I don't have a choice but to accept it according to your version.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now we are getting somewhere yes thank you.  Now has it occurred to you that Mr Hardien, having regard to his background may have lied either to you or to Mr van Zyl in relation to the presence or otherwise of people in the building?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: The possibility exists, certainly Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: Has it occurred to you that it is possible that Mr van Zyl misrepresented to you what the real purpose of this bomb being put there was, and knowing that you were not in the "voorstudie" he and Hardien requiring your assistance obtained it under false pretences.  Did that occur to you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, Mr van Zyl's integrity is above suspicion to me with regard to that.

GEORGE BIZOS: A gentleman above suspicion.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is your translation.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MR MARTINI: Sorry Chairperson Mr Bizos shouldn't make jokes of the answers he doesn't like that he extracts under cross-examination.  He should keep his comments to himself and argue it, rather than make a snide comment when he extracts an answer which is not favourable to him.  Thank you Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: .... that it's not favourable to me in view of the questions that follow and I certainly didn't hear anybody laughing with my question Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Botha if you were told that the purpose of the operation was to kill people, what would you have done?