Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-18

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: As the PAC, what we are concerned about is that this is our land.  The murders of apartheid, we are only referring to the land that was taken by the boers through blood, they were the drivers of the apartheid, that is why the apartheid is referred to as the crime against humanity.  The driver of the apartheid is a criminal.  The PAC is concurrent about the land.

MR MALAN: You say in your application and also in your evidence that negotiations were already on at Kempton Park, by '93 it was far advanced, it was the follow-up after CODESA, PAC was participating, do you still believe that these attacks were necessary?  Don't you see that the negotiation would have gone the same way, would probably have gone the same way, without the APLA attacks?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: We are a military wing, we are trained soldiers, we are trained to take orders.  The PAC was the mother body, APLA was the lower structure of the PAC.  As long as we didn't get an order from the PAC saying that we should stop, we are going to continue until we receive an order to cease fire, as on the 16th of January 1994, that order was given.

MR MALAN: Ja, I'm not disputing that.  You are saying there was nego..., you said earlier there was negotiations at Kempton Park, you had all these attacks, you were asked how do you feel about the people that were dead, that got killed, and you said, "It happens, if it didn't happen, we would not have had the democracy".  Now my question is simply, do you believe that, or, on looking back, would we not have had democracy without the attack on the Wesselsbron Supermarket?  Was this necessary, not whether it was an order, I'm asking you to evaluate the fact, not to defend the order, let's accept for the moment that that order and policy was in place?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: There were negotiations, but at the very same time, if we remember well, in 1993, May and June, the PAC offices were raided and the members of the PAC were arrested all over the country.  There were negotiations, the government was involved in the negotiations.  We couldn't fold our arms, because our rights were violated, we were supposed to do something to show that the government was not serious with the negotiations.

MR MALAN: Was it not also true that attacks, the armed struggle continued after 1990, it was never stopped, the Wesselsbron attack wasn't the first attack, PAC attacked, they had the armed struggle all through during negotiations, it didn't commence with this, isn't that also true?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: I don't understand your question.

MR MALAN: Was the armed struggle and violence, was it not going all all through until only, as you've said, 1994, shortly before the elections?  It was not a response only to the raid, in a sense the government said at the time that the raid was in response to attacks, and then more attacks came after the raid, is that not also true?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: The raid happened and in 1993, the APLA command said that that was the year of the great storm.  As the military wing, we were supposed to carry on the armed struggle.  The fact that there were negotiations at that that time, that didn't mean that we were liberated or free, that was a process, people were trying to find a solution, that didn't mean that the solution was there at the time, or they found a solution at that time, and the PAC did not give us an order at the time to suspend the armed struggle, we were working accordingly.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  You see, Sir, the victims' viewpoint is this, that this was a common robbery, and you did it because it was for own personal gain, nothing else.  Do you have any comment on that?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: They have a right to say so, but it is not like that.  What we were doing was to further the aims of the PAC, together with APLA.  That is not true, what they are saying is not true.

MR STEENKAMP: And then maybe my last question to you, am I right in saying that no information of this sort was provided by you or any of your attackers when you were prosecuted in the supreme court, you didn't tell the Court you were soldiers of APLA, that your motivation for this was because it was part of the armed struggle, am I right?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: First of all, in court we wanted to be found not guilty, that's what we were trying to do.  We couldn't say, "Yes, we were members of APLA, we did that", because I could see that we were going to be found guilty, I couldn't admit to that and say that, "Yes, I did this and I'm a member of APLA", I was trying to be found not guilty.

MR STEENKAMP: Sorry, Mr Chairman, just a last question.  Sir, before the attack, you were the person in charge there, did you tell your other co-attackers that they must only shoot at white people, not indiscriminately, but they must go for white people?  What did you tell them?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes, I told them to shoot white people, and to take money, and after that, to withdraw.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP

MR MALAN: Just on this point, one of the affidavits that's been put before us of one of the victims has a statement which says that if indeed the shooting of people was your objective, you could have shot many more people, because there were many more people present in the supermarket that night.  To my question, you said that there were only the eight people.  Would you think about that again and may we have your comment?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: If there were a lot of people there, that means they were going to be affected, some of them were going to be injured or some of them were going to die.  As I've already said, I didn't count that this is the first or the second or the third person, I didn't have time to count them.

MR MALAN: But you did say that you shot all the people that were present, they were only the eight people present, which you've learnt only after the time that they were eight, but you saw no other people that weren't killed or wounded, is that what you were saying?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: The people who were there, were the people who got injured and the people who died.  I don't know about others.  Maybe they were there in other rooms or something, because in court it was said that one of them was at the back.

MR MALAN: Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you say you shot all the people who were in the supermarket, in the shopping area?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you say you shot all the people, killed or injured all the people who were in the shopping area, in the supermarket?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Those who were in front of our eyes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the people you could see in the supermarket?

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I was thinking of taking the adjournment now and adjourning till quarter to two, if that would suit you.  You can, if you want to, take your re-examination now, but I thought it's after 1:00 already, it would be easier for you to do it at quarter to two, is that all right with you?

MR MBANDAZAYO: We can adjourn, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, we'll now adjourn till quarter to two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS FOR LUNCH

MANGALISEKILE BHANI: (still under oath)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Good, Mr Chairman, there's only one point I ...(inaudible)