Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-18

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: Even though this happened a long time ago but according to what I can remember on that particular day General Nqoya arrived at the office saying that there was a meeting that was supposed to be at the police college.  At this meeting there were the police, I think plus or minus five of them but they were not above five, who were sent to Pretoria to be trained in connection with elections.  So these police were going to go to the college and tell the other police the role that the police were going to take when the elections were going on.
	Brigadier Bongusa who was the commander of the police college at the time, he was sent by General Nqoya to call the police in order for the police from Pretoria to give a report back to other police on what role they were going to take in the elections.  General Nqoya said he was going to attend the meeting because he wanted to hear what role were the police going to take at the elections.  I think at about 9 or before 9 he received a message that he was being needed at a meeting with Brigadier Gqozo at his office.  He postponed the college meeting.  He went to attend the meeting with Brigadier Gqozo at his office.
	When he arrived there at Brigadier Gqozo's office he was told that that meeting was being postponed for another day that was not set yet.  Then General Nqoya, because when he looked at the time he could see that it was still early so the meeting at the college was not over at the time.  Because he was interested to know what role the police were going to take at the elections, he said that we must go to the college.
	When we arrived at the college inside the hall there was nobody.  The police were there, they were outside the hall, they were not inside.  He then said he wondered why these police were outside because the meeting was supposed to be on inside but he just said that and then he went inside.  When the police saw him they said "here is Nqoya" the police that were outside.  They then called the other police, they went inside the hall and General Nqoya went in and he went to the stage.  All the police went in and they were inside the hall saying "down with Nqoya, down with Nqoya" when they were coming in.  
	When General Nqoya was in there, Inspector Mfene took the microphone, he told the police to keep quiet because there was noise there.  He said "down with Nqoya", he told the police to keep quiet and indeed they did so.  He was addressing the police and he said that "here is General Nqoya, the one we are waiting for, he is here."  He had arrived and we wanted him to tell us about our pension funds because according to our information all the TBVC States had been given their pensions and if we would go to the new South Africa without getting our pension money, we won't be able to get it and the issuing of promotions, we wanted him to tell us about the pensions.
	After that he took the microphone and gave it to General Nqoya to address the police.  After he had given the microphone to General Nqoya I went out at the time so I couldn't hear what General Nqoya said because I went outside.  I went to Brigadier Bongusa's office.  When I arrived there I asked whether the Brigadier was away of the meeting that was going on at the hall.  Brigadier Bongusa then said, he asked me whether I was with General Nqoya.  I said yes I was with him.  He asked where he was.  I told him that he was inside the hall.  General Bongusa said "General Nqoya was not supposed to go there he was supposed to call me before going to that meeting."  He then said that he was not going to attend that meeting at the hall.  That was Brigadier Bongusa saying that.
	I asked him what was going to happen now because Brigadier Nqoya was inside the hall.  Brigadier Bongusa said he doesn't know what was going to happen.  But because I knew that General Nqoya was not away, of what was happening there, because he only knew that he was going to attend a meeting in connection with elections.  When I arrived at the college I went to the meeting again, I went straight to General Nqoya when he had this microphone with him.  I said "General, Brigadier Gqozo wanted to see you in his office."  After saying that General Nqoya said to these police " I received a message just now saying that Brigadier Gqozo wanted to see me in his office."  
	After he said that, Inspector Mfene took a microphone again asking the police whether they should release him or not.  Others said yes, others said no, so they didn't agree with each other.  General Nqoya then said that they must write down their complaints or demands so that he can take that list to Brigadier Gqozo and discuss those with him because he didn't know anything about the pension issues, he also wanted his pension money.  So he said that he must write down these issues and then he would go and discuss them with Brigadier Gqozo.  The police then agreed with each other saying that they must release him.  They then wrote down those issues, I think they wrote them in General Nqoya's diary.
	General Nqoya then left and he went to Brigadier Gqozo.   When he arrived at Brigadier Gqozo's he said that "Brigadier, the police that are at the police college, they want their pension money, they are concerned about promotions and I was not clear about the pension monies of the police, I just heard about that issue that the civil servants pensions were at Sanlam but I can't explain to them, I can't satisfy them with my explanation of how to go to Sanlam."
	Brigadier Gqozo then said "What are you saying then?"
	General Nqoya then said that he prefers that somebody who was aware of where the pensions were must go and address those police because they had to be addressed, they cannot be left like that.
	Brigadier Gqozo then said "Okay, I will call the Minister of Finance to go and address those police" because he was the person who knew where the pensions were.  Brigadier Gqozo then phoned.  At the time at the office it was Brigadier Gqozo, General Nqoya and the Minister of Police, Brunet, at that office together with other people that I didn't know but I knew those three.  Brigadier Gqozo then phoned the Minister of Finance saying that he is asking the Minister to go to the police to address the police concerning the pension issues.  As this was a complaint to the police it was all the people from Ciskei at the time were complaining about this because everybody wanted their pensions because there was a rumour that if they were going to be incorporated in the new South Africa they won't get all that money.  
	When the Minister of Finance answered he said that yes, he can be able to address the police but he cannot go there while those police were armed, he cannot go there and address them concerning the pension issue whilst they were armed.  He said that he would ask for a armoured vehicle from the soldiers and he would ask the soldiers to escort him so that he can address the police because the police had to be addressed.  The minister, he said that on the phone, it seemed as if they were agreeing with each other when Brigadier Gqozo said that he would be escorted by the soldiers.  He then dropped the phone, Brigadier Gqozo then phoned these soldiers.  At the time it was past 4 or 5 o'clock in the afternoon.  Brigadier Gqozo then called the soldiers.  He said that he was asking for back up from the soldiers because he doesn't know what the police were doing, they were asking for his pension so he wanted to send the Minister of Finance to address the police so he - I don't know whether he referred to it as a platoon or what but he said that he wanted them to have an armoured vehicle to accompany or to escort the Minister of Finance so that nothing can happen to him at the college.  I think that the soldiers said that they could not go with him because they also wanted their pension money. 
	Then Brigadier Gqozo said that even these soldiers, they want their pension money, all the Ciskeian people want their pension money.  I then thought that maybe the soldiers refused to escort the minister, they also wanted their pension money.
	When Brigadier Gqozo realised that these soldiers didn't want to escort him, he spoke to the Minister of Police, Mr Brunet, saying that he must phone the stability unit, I don't know whether in East London or where, so that the stability unit can come with an armoured vehicle, take the minister and escort the minister to these police so that he can address the pension issues to the police.
	It was towards 6 o'clock at the time.  Then Brigadier Gqozo said that he was leaving.  He said "General, I spoke with Minister Brunet, he going to sort this all out".  He said that he was leaving and then indeed he left.  We were at his office at the time.  Brigadier Gqozo then left with his bodyguards.  We realised that the people who were leaving at the parliament, the people who were left behind were myself, General Nqoya, Brigadier Adoni and Minister Brunet and Sergeant Getsi and Sergeant Nqoya the son of General Nqoya.  He said that we must go to the ministerial complex where Brunet was staying.  He said that we must go there and wait for the stability unit so that they can escort the minister to the police college.  We indeed went to the ministerial complex.
	It was after 6 towards 7 at the time.  We waited there for the stability unit.  Whilst we were still waiting there we heard the 8 o'clock news that Brigadier Gqozo had resigned.  We heard that from the television news but we didn't believe that because the last time we saw Gqozo he spoke with Brunet so that he can arrange for the stability unit to escort the minister to go and address these police.
	At about 10, 10 o'clock news, Inspector Luwana who is a Captain now from the former Ciskei, I think he was at the college at the time, he appeared on T.V., he was being interviewed, asked how they felt that Brigadier Gqozo had resigned from his position.  He said that they were happy and they had forced him to resign.  He was interviewed at the 10 o'clock news whilst we were still at the ministerial complex.
	After that General Nqoya phoned Minister Brunet asking him whether he had heard what was said on the T.V. news saying that Brigadier Gqozo had resigned.  He then said yes, he heard that.  General Nqoya asked why we were still waiting there, he asked whether the stability unit was still on the way.    He said yes, they were still coming.
	After 30 minutes, General Nqoya said that he can't wait any more because the stability unit was not coming and the police had to be addressed.  He said to me we must go to the college.  Brunet then said that if General Nqoya was going back to the meeting without any answers for the police he said that the police would shoot him.  He said "It's better for me to be shot by the police instead of sitting here not knowing what I'm waiting for".  He then said we must go to the college.  When we were on our way to the college getting out of the ministerial complex, at the gate there were soldiers that were guarding the ministers.  When we arrived there these soldiers saw us and they didn't open the gates when they saw us.  They closed the gates and they called the college saying that "here is General Nqoya here, we found him."  When they said that, two police arrived, Majela and Balus.  They guarded us with other soldiers so that we cannot get out of the car, we cannot move from that area.  We were driving two cars at the time, we were told to sit in those cars.  We then waited there, we were told to wait for the police to come and fetch us.  A kombi came with police and this kombi, Mjikalezi was there, Inspector Loni, Moleshe and one young man but I don't know who it was.  Other people, I can't remember who they were, but I can remember those that I mentioned.  They stopped the kombi, they told us to get out of the car, they pointed us with rifles at the time.  We got out of the car, it was said that our firearms should be taken from us.  Moleshe took our firearms, were taken out of those cars, those two cars.  They took us to the kombi, we then went to the college.
	When we arrived there at the college there were a lot of police, there were more than the number that was there before when we were there.  When we arrived there with that kombi, the kombi stopped next to the door of the hall.  The police were told to step back and then police, about 8 or 10, came with rifles.  They were pointing at us with those rifles and as we were getting out of the car it was Brigadier Adoni who was going to get out of the car first.  I thought that we were going to be shot at that time because everybody went back and then we were faced with the people who pointed us with these guns.  He went back to the car, this brigadier, I then was the first one who got out of the car and then General Nqoya was the last one. 
	I went inside the hall.  When I went in the hall, as General Nqoya was getting in, I was the first one to go in and I was also a non-commissioned officer, so I thought maybe this was not effecting me, maybe they wanted General Nqoya.  When I arrived there I didn't go to the stage where the officers were sitting, I went to the non-commissioned officers.  As I was a non-commissioned officer Nkwenkwe called my name telling me that I must go up the stage.  When I was going up the stage General Nqoya was pointed with a gun, was kicked and he was pushed.  He went to the stage, he sat amongst other officers on the stage.  
	Nkwenkwe said to Captain Makhubalo, "Go and sit next to him because you are together."  Then Captain Makhubalo sat next to General Nqoya.  We all went in and sat down there.  A lot happened whilst we were sitting there.  I cannot remember everything that happened but it was what had already been said here, the CV's of the police were asked and there was a certain inspector that I can't remember his surname but he was working at the security, bugging the telephones.  He would be given a microphone and he would be asked whose phones were being bugged and why they were being bugged and how much money is there for the informers money, such things were being asked because in each and every government there is an intelligence man and they were asked to tell everything that was happening in those offices.  There were a lot of things that were happening there. 
	They were also asked about the misappropriation of money that we ended up staying there until the next morning.  When we left there the following morning they didn't focus on me at the time when I was leaving there.  As we were going out I went and joined the non-commissioned officers who went to the college but I was not under pressure at that time, I was able to go home if I wanted to go home.  It was about 8 or 9.  I went to the stadium.  There at the stadium there were civil servants from different departments of Ciskei.  The hall was full and it was said that Gqozo had resigned and he was going to come and address the people concerning certain issues.  I just heard that as I was on my way there.
	When we arrived at the stadium, I can't remember what was being said but a lot of things were discussed but what I noticed there, the civil servants that were not police, they wanted to take part in what was done by the police.  It seemed as if they were happy that Gqozo was going to come and address the civil servants at large, not only the police about the pension funds.  Nkwenkwe then said that there's nothing between us, we as the police and the civil servants because General Nqoya and Captain Makwethu went to draw money, sports funds money and the widows' fund.  Then Nkwenkwe as the person who had the microphone was told that the money was there so the police had to go and get that money. 
	Then Nkwenkwe, when he was addressing these people, he said there was nothing that was in between us, the police have to go to the college, their money was there.  So the civil servants were surprised when they heard that the police's money was there and the civil servants had shouted, were shouting saying that the police were only preparing for themselves, they thought that this was done for everybody, so the police were now going to get their money.  They were shouting and insulting the police, all those people that were there.  They said that the police did not know politics so that was what was expected from them, so that ended there and then I left.  That is all I can remember up to now.