Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-11

MR RICHARD: Now at the time that you went to that house that night, did you think of Mrs Klein?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: Did you believe that she would be in the bedroom with Mr Klein?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: It's obvious.

MR RICHARD: Did you consider that there might have been other methods of attacking Mr Klein?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, I did not consider other methods.

MR RICHARD: Is it then correct that you felt that Mrs Klein was a permissible victim in the situation?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

MR RICHARD: An acceptable, not permissible.  Sorry for the misuse of permissible.  Now, did you ever doubt your opinion regarding Mrs Klein?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: How do you mean doubt my opinion?

MR RICHARD: Did you ever doubt or feel that it might not be acceptable that Mrs Klein be injured in the attack?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, I did not doubt it.

MR RICHARD: Now what was your reason for selecting the Klein household over and above other potential households in the neighbourhood?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Like I explained in my amnesty application ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think he said that he selected it because in his view the Kleins, well Mr Klein was a legitimate target.
MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: Now are you saying you know, why didn't he throw it at somebody who wasn't a member of the Labour Party?  I mean there are thousands of houses in Wentworth.

MR RICHARD: May I rephrase that.
	There were other people on your potential target list at the time, correct?  Yes, or no?  Other than the Klein ...(intervention)

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I don't know what list you're referring to here.

MR RICHARD: You listed a number of people other than the Klein family.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: But I did not mention there was a list.

JUDGE PILLAY: Look at it this way, was there any other person in the area who was suspected by you of being a member of the Labour Party and also a reservist?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

JUDGE PILLAY: Now given that, at least one other person in the same position, why did you then choose, have you got any particular reason for having chosen Mr Klein?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: The reason I chose Mr Klein, he was closest to where we operated from and also I would not need transport to arrange to get away from there, and I had known the area very well.

MR RICHARD: In other words, he was the closest available target.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: He was the closest, but I won't say he was the closest available target.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now we turn to the question of Mr Klein being a police reservist.  When did you first learn that Mr Klein was a police reservist?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That was common knowledge in Wentworth.

MR RICHARD: Now, my question was, when was it common knowledge, 1982 or '85 or?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I can't give you the exact year of when I got that information, but it was known I think, to all who lived in Wentworth that Mr Klein was a police policeman.  I don't know from what year.

MR RICHARD: Do you know whether he ever stopped being a police reservist?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I don't know that, I've heard it being mentioned here.

MR RICHARD: Now on what basis did you believe he was a police reservist in 1986, other than the general opinion?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: As I told you, it was common knowledge.  I was aware that Mr Klein was a reservist.

CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned - you gave an example earlier about somebody sitting and having a beer and he came and slapped him up and took him to the police station.  Was that - in what capacity was Mr Klein acting when he did that?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: At that time I recall he was still a reserve policeman.  And the other thing I'd like to add is, if Mr Klein had resigned from being a reserve policeman, I was not aware of that and the thing is the other reserve policemen who used to be in his click or his gang, they used to still come and visit him often and he used to still go out into Wentworth with them.  So I was not under the impression that he resigned from the reservists.

MR RICHARD: It's not disputed that sometime prior to 1986 he was once a police reservist, but it is disputed that by 1986, that he was an active, or involved police reservist.  In fact, it's my instructions that he was never either very active or very effective and in fact had dropped it.  Would you comment on my instructions?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Sir, those are your instructions ...(intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, Mr Richard, I don't understand your question ...(inaudible) that he stopped being an active police reservist, but he nevertheless was still a reservist, or are you saying that he stopped being a police reservist in 1986?  ...(inaudible) not get a distinction.

MR RICHARD: The distinction is, police reservist is a part-time activity and it's dependent on the particular person as to how much they make themselves available or not.  As at 1986 or 1985, my instructions are that Mr Klein had not done anything of any note or significance in and about being a police reservist.  He might still have been theoretically on the reserve list.  Does that answer the question?

ADV SIGODI: Yes, I just wanted that distinction, so that I could also understand the question.  I mean as from the, from stopping from being an active police reservist to being a non-active police reservist, but I don't understand if it's disputed that he was a police reservist at that time.

MR RICHARD: Now did you ever see Mr Klein go out on police duties?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: How do mean "go out on these duties"?

MR RICHARD: Travelled in a police van, go to the police station and stand behind the counter, go and investigate the scene of a crime.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I've seen him often with other policemen and police reservists.  I've seen him quite a few times ill-treating people in Wentworth.

MR RICHARD: When was that?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: When?  Do you want me to specify it was on that day on that year?

MR RICHARD: Was it in 1983 or '84 or '85?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I don't remember exactly which year it was.

MR RICHARD: Was it shortly before May 1986, or long before ...(intervention)

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Sir, I just said to you I don't remember.

MR RICHARD: Now let's return before leaving the point.  What training did Mr McBride give you before April 1986?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Mr Chairman, before I answer ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We're talking now besides the intelligence gathering?

MR RICHARD: Besides intelligence ...

CHAIRPERSON: Training for instance with the use of weaponry etc.  If you could just briefly explain, Mr Lecordier.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I will answer the question, Mr Chairman, but before I answer I'd like to be excused, call of nature please.

MR RICHARD: It's 1 o'clock, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I see it's almost 1 o'clock, so we'll now take the lunch adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MATTHEW LECORDIER: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: (cont)
	Thank you, Chair.
	Mr Lecordier, before concluding on the attack on Mr and Mrs Klein's residence, I've been requested to put her version squarely to you.  Her version is that she denies having ever been politically active or having any association with the Labour Party or the police reserve.  Do you have anything to say about whether you accept or reject her version?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I reject her version.

MR RICHARD: On what basis?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: You say she did not have anything to do with the Labour Party.  Was not being married to Mr Klein, who was a Labour Party member, wasn't that enough?

MR RICHARD: If that is your answer, that is your answer.  Is it your answer?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, it is.

MR RICHARD: She then goes on to say that at the time she disapproved and did not support her husband's marginal activities with both the Labour Party and the police reserve.  Do you have anything to comment on that?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I do not anything about that.