Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: : He may have said that, I am indebted Mr  Chairman.   What did you use to stab the deceased?

ANSWER: I used a knife it looked something like a "skaapsker",what we call a sheep shears.   It looks like a sheep shear.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was it a complete sheep shear, pair of sheepshears?

ANSWER: No it was made out like a knife.

<UNKNOWN>: : In that it was one of the blades to the sheepshears?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Where did you get that from?

ANSWER: I brought it with me from Geluk.....

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Sukudu if you do not remember, I'm now goingthrough your application form, Mr Chairman and Members of theCommittee the index No will be 5 as well as application form pagewill be page 5.   Question 11(a) reads as follows; "Werethe acts or omissions or offences committed in the execution ofan order of or on behalf of or with the approval of the organisation,institution, (indistinct) liberation movement, state departmentor security force concerned?".   Your answer was, you said"On behalf of my own according approval understanding ofmy mind and part of execution political objectives can be sought."  The important part now follows, then you said "I was notcommanded but as far as my own mentality is concerned I decidedto execute."

ANSWER: Yes.   To explain this that I wasn't, may youplease repeat your question?

<UNKNOWN>: : When you say you were not commanded.

ANSWER: By that I mean because of my political knowledgeat that time and my standard, no one had commanded me to do that.  I did this because of my political experience at that time,no one had commanded me to do that.

<UNKNOWN>: : Can you repeat that again and speak loud please?

ANSWER: Yes, when I did this my political education bythat time caused me to do that and my experience, no one had givenme a command to do that.

<UNKNOWN>: : Would I be correct if I state that you didthis out of your own initiative?

ANSWER: I don't understand your question.

<UNKNOWN>: : If I state that you did this out of your owninitiative.

ANSWER: According to my evidence there it is like thatbecause of what the circumstances were at that time.

<UNKNOWN>: : Let us revert to page 4 Mr Chairman and Membersof the Committee of the application as well.   The last paragraphon that page under paragraph 10(b), I'm going to read it out foryou, if you don't remember please indicate to me.   You say
  "So on my own decided to kill in order to indicate or convincethe illegitimate government to abolish apartheid system."

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : How was the killing of this man going to convincethe apartheid system?

ANSWER: At that time because of my standards in politicsand my experience and according to the understanding of my mind.

<UNKNOWN>: : (Indistinct) of what?

ANSWER: Yes by killing one of their elements.

<UNKNOWN>: : What did you expect to achieve by killing thisman?

ANSWER: Presently objective which was sought.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did you actually benefit by killing Mr Grobbelaar?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : What did you achieve?

ANSWER: Do you mean presently, may you please repeatthe question?

<UNKNOWN>: : What did you achieve by killing Mr Grobbelaar?

ANSWER: Presently the masses of the people achieved thepolitical objective which was sought, to reconcile according tomy own political philosophical thought one ought to change.  Thank you.

<UNKNOWN>: : According to your political understanding oneought to change?   I didn't hear the last part, one ought to change?

ANSWER: Yes I said one ought to change in political standings.

<UNKNOWN>: You filed a supplementary affidavit whichI believe was prepared with the assistance of your current counsel,is that so?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : I'm going to refer Mr Chairman and Membersof the Committee to the supplementary affidavit page 24 thereof,the second-last paragraph.   I'll quote this for you, you state
  "I did not intend to rob deceased when killed him and myactions were motivated by a desire to, as a soldier, destroy theenemy whenever I get a chance."
 Do you remember saying that?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Had you taken any measure before stabbing Grobbelaarto establish as to whether he was your enemy?

ANSWER: When I met him as a white person, because I wasrunning away from white persons, I perceived him as my enemy.

<UNKNOWN>: : You have a right to state again that your decisionwas simply based on colour.

ANSWER: He was one of the elements of those who weremy enemies.

<UNKNOWN>: : Your decision was based on colour.

ANSWER: Yes.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS
QUESTIONS BY MEMBER OF COMMITTEE

<UNKNOWN>: You were being pursued by the police as asuspect on a murder charge were you?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were the other two people that were with youthat day also suspects?

ANSWER: No only one of those two.

<UNKNOWN>: : Who was that?

ANSWER: It was Sidney.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did either of them give evidence at your trial?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Which one?

ANSWER: It is the same Sidney.

<UNKNOWN>: : He wasn't charged, was he a State witness ordid he give evidence in his defence?

ANSWER: Yes he was a State witness.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did he, in the course of his evidence,  saythat you asked the deceased for cigarettes and money?

ANSWER: No I can't remember well.   May you please repeatyour question?

<UNKNOWN>: : Did he say that you asked the deceased forcigarettes and money and that when he didn't give you any, youslapped him?

ANSWER: Yes in his evidence he stated that.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did he also say that they tried to stop you,that they didn't take part in the attack on the deceased?

ANSWER: Yes he said that.

<UNKNOWN>: : Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MEMBER OF COMMISSION
QUESTIONS BY MEMBER OF COMMISSION

<UNKNOWN>: : How many whites during your lifetime have youcome across.   How many white people have you come across in yourlocation in Maokeng prior to 1992, 30 October?

ANSWER: In the township, the existing political situationdidn't allow people, white people to be in the township, thatwas the first time I saw a white person.

<UNKNOWN>: : In your evidence you testified that you werebeing sought by white policemen?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Where were you being sought by the white policemen,was it not in the location?

ANSWER: They used to drive in the township, the whitepolicemen.

<UNKNOWN>: : (Indistinct).

ANSWER: I can't remember it's now a long time ago.

<UNKNOWN>: : What made you think that he could be, whatmade you to suspect him to be one of the policemen that mighthave been looking for you at that time?

ANSWER: I must mention, two of them used to walk in thetownship, Oosthuizen and Killie, white policemen, that is whenthey were searching for me.

<UNKNOWN>: : Where, seen around the location?

ANSWER: Yes when they were looking for people who werethe members of the African Congress Youth League they would beseen.

<UNKNOWN>: : In uniform carrying guns?

ANSWER: No they are wearing...

<UNKNOWN>: : They are what?

<UNKNOWN>: : Meaning they were wearing private clothes andthey were not clothed in police uniform, is that what you aresaying?

ANSWER: Yes they wanted to catch us, they didn't wantus to see them but we knew that they used to walk on their feetwhen they want to catch us.

<UNKNOWN>: : But you've told us they were the only whitesin the township, how could you not see them if the white men walkedthere.

ANSWER: I said the white people, the police, I thinkI've mentioned the two of the white policemen, I also regardedhim as one of them because I didn't know him then.

<UNKNOWN>: : The question was the white policemen who cameinto the township did they come in wearing their police uniforms,you could see they were policemen?

ANSWER: No, no they couldn't wear uniform.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were they not wearing uniforms?

ANSWER: They wore private clothes.

<UNKNOWN>: : ...they were policemen is that what you aresaying?