Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-10

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: These people were my friends in the township.  I was not a member of the ANC.

MR MALINDI: So your ANC background in brief is that you were friends with the ANC?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct sir.

MR MALINDI: In your application you state that you were a member of AmaButho?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I said I don't know AmaButho, I was in a group that attacked Boipatong, I was a follower of the IFP.

MR MALINDI: It is your evidence that you were a member of Gatiza's gang, is it not so?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I used to accompany Gatiza.

MR MALINDI: Was there only one such gang in kwaMadala or were there several?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying Gatiza and myself were friends, he had friends from the township, people like myself, from the township.

CHAIRPERSON: You have just said that you didn't say that - you don't know AmaButho.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I said I don't know AmaButho.  I am saying it is possible yes, there were AmaButho at the hostel, but I don't know them.  I would like the statement about AmaButho to be read to me.

CHAIRPERSON: It is in your application which you signed, which you have now told us was completed by Mr Mongezi, in paragraph 7(b), you were asked the capacity in which you served in the organisation which you had mentioned as being the IFP and you stated that you were an ordinary member, a part of AmaButho in the IFP Youth Brigade.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I dispute that.  Yes, I did mention the fact that I was a member of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say that you were part of the Youth Brigade?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, the IFP Youth Brigade.

CHAIRPERSON: You were part of that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I was a member of that, but I didn't have any position.  No, I don't know AmaButho.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MALINDI: In your application at page 13, paragraph 10(d)...

MR LAX: Mr Malindi, he denies that document, page 13 but please continue.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Mr Lax.   Mr Nosenga, you testified that you went on a few attacks launched from kwaMadala, for example the Sebokeng attack, Small Farms, Everton and Boipatong.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.  That is where I was involved.

MR MALINDI: Do you know if other residents of kwaMadala were involved in other different, other attacks different to the ones that you were involved in?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it is possible, but there were different groups and people would go out on their own as small groups, maybe they are involved, but what I know is that I was involved in the Sebokeng incident.

MR MALINDI: I would refer you to Exhibit U and in particular page 7 thereof, paragraph 3 thereof if the Chairperson and the Committee members have that document, paragraph 3 thereof states the following in Afrikaans
"... Op 15 Februarie 1992 is verdagte swart man Andries Nosenga, deur my gearresteer ..."
	If that date is read together with the statement that appears on page 1 of Exhibit U ...

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, sorry for the interruption, may please the same line be read so as to be interpreted into Zulu?

MR MALINDI: What appears on page 7, paragraph 3 translated into English
"... On the 15th of February 1992, I arrested a suspect, a black man, Andries Nosenga ...",
	and it is a statement by Mr Ferreira.  That date, read with what is on the statement which appears on page 1 and the statement that appears on page 4, is clearly wrong, it should be 1993.  Do you agree that you were arrested on the 15th of February 1993?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I was arrested in 1993, I do not have a recollection of the date.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Malindi, the date on page 4 is the 15th of October 1993?

MR MALINDI: Yes, you are right Mr Lax, I am sorry about that.  And also on page 1, it is also 15 October 1993, but on Mr Ferreira's statement, what then appears subsequently, it will be clear that the date of 15 February should have been 1993, because it then refers to incidents that could not have happened in February of 1992.  Chairperson, I will not take it further, the document is before the Committee if there is any point to be argued about when he was arrested and what the effect thereof will be, it will be argued.  Then lastly Mr Nosenga, when Mr Lowies was cross-examining you, he asked you a lot of questions about why you applied for amnesty for something that you have not been convicted for and questions to the effect why you apply for something that you had not been arrested for, or questioned about at the time of your arrest for the Sebokeng matter.    Do you know what will happen to your present imprisonment if you are granted amnesty for those incidents?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Would you please repeat the question.

MR MALINDI: You have applied for amnesty for the Sebokeng incidents as well?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR MALINDI: You are serving 14 years at the present moment?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR MALINDI: If you apply for amnesty and you are granted amnesty, what would you benefit out of amnesty being granted?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know.

MR MALINDI: Are you hoping that you won't serve the 14 years, you may be released before the end of the 14 years?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, yes, that is correct.

MR MALINDI: And if you are granted amnesty for the Boipatong incident, what are you hoping to benefit?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I was not sentenced for the Boipatong incident, but I was involved, that is why I have decided to come forward to apply for amnesty.  I will be very happy if I can be granted amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: ... is this, you are serving a term in prison, 14 years, for the Sebokeng killings?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And if you are being granted amnesty in respect of that killing, you hope that you are not going to serve the 14 year period, right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.  I say yes, that is possible because that is what I was convicted for.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not convicted of the Boipatong massacre?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I was not convicted.

CHAIRPERSON: You are not serving any time for it?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you going to benefit if amnesty is granted?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I would be very pleased if I could be granted amnesty in that regard.

MR MALINDI: Are you hoping that you won't be arrested and charged for that incident separately?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I volunteered information on my own, pertaining to the Sebokeng incident, I came forward, I was not arrested for that incident.  There are many people who were not arrested.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cambanis, are you going to be very long?

MS CAMBANIS: Not at all, no questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon?

MS CAMBANIS: No questions whatsoever, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: There is only one issue Mr Chairperson, that I am going to ask questions about.

MR BERGER: Sorry Mr Chairperson, I've got a note from your Registrar that Mr Mey still has to cross-examine.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we know that.  Very well, do you have any questions?

MR MEY: Yes Chairperson,  only one issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to be fairly long on that issue?

MR MEY: Not really.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, well perhaps we should take an adjournment at this stage.  We will come back at two o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Mey and for the record, would you indicate who you are representing?

MR MEY: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I am acting on behalf of Mr Chaka and Rooikop and I am David Mey.