Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I beg your pardon.

GEORGE BIZOS: You see there Walus is AWB member, ET, but then if you have a look at the paragraph on the right-hand side.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I see, so the bottom half is a continuation.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is a continuation.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.
"Mr Terreblanche said he condemned the assassination but that he understood the motive, the motive any White would have for killing Mr Hani.  He disapproved of the attack because it was an assassination and not a kill in a real war, adding, `if it had been a proper battle, I would have killed Mr Hani myself'."
And then he goes on.  
	Now did the leader of the AWB whose meetings you attended, or with whom you associated, ever tell you that assassination was part and parcel of the AWB's policy?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, my thing has acted up again, I only got half of the question.  Can Mr Bizos please repeat.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, unfortunately, we will just have to be patient.  We will just have to be patient, Mr Bizos, and ...

GEORGE BIZOS: I am that and I will try my best not to ... (Laughter).  Did the man with whom you appeared on the same platform, with whom you marched and with whom you were praised, ever tell you that before the murder, ever tell you that the AWB policy was in favour of assassination of political leaders, yes or no?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Good. I also want to ask you something.  Did you as an officer and a gentleman to which you went to tremendous lengths to persuade us on in your lengthy evidence, Mr Derby-Lewis, isn't an assassination abhorrent to an army officer and a gentleman?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, in certain circumstances, anything is acceptable. If one studies the war there were very numerous cases where assassinations were planned by military men in terms of the war which was being waged.

GEORGE BIZOS: Isn't the ethic to which apparently Mr Terreblanche was brought up on, that you kill in war, but you do not - you do not go about assassinating people, is that a distinction which never occurred to you as an officer and a gentleman?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, as far as Mr Terreblanche's ethics are concerned, I am not able to comment.  As far as I am concerned, we were in a war-time situation, which justified any action for the defence and protection of your people's rights.  Any action whatsoever.

GEORGE BIZOS: You said, Mr Derby-Lewis, that Mr Terreblanche never told you that assassination was permissible.  Is there any other leader of any other rightwing political party or organisation, that told you that assassination was in order for his or her organisation?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, because I would never discuss that with anyone else, because of the extent to which the right had been infiltrated by the State.

GEORGE BIZOS: So that no political organisation on the right ever told you that assassination was its policy?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, but they obviously carried out their own assassinations.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please confine yourself to answers of my question, please.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman ...

GEORGE BIZOS: So that we do not have to go off on a tangent. If you want to add anything, you have counsel sitting next to you who is making careful notes who can make them in due course. Please try and confine yourself to the answering the question, if you can.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was directed at you about a leader or leaders of rightwing organisations.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I understood that.

CHAIRPERSON: And I think you should just confine yourself whether any leaders told you that it was their policy.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.   I said no, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I can understand followers of organisations doing things.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But the question is now directed as to leaders of the organisation.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: And I answered that question in the negative, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now if we could have a look at page 11 of the same bundle, 3(a).

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Page 11 of 3(a)?

GEORGE BIZOS: Of R3, section A, page 11.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Page 11. I think I have it, Mr Chairman, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.
"Clive's arrest was a great shock to CP leaders in Cape Town.  The arrest of Mr Clive Derby-Lewis, member of the President's Council of the Conservative Party, in connection with the murder of Mr Chris Hani, was a great shock to the CP leaders."
And then -
"The CP at this stage does not consider any actions or steps to be taken against him."
And then the next paragraph says:
"Dr Andries Treurnicht, CP leader, who is convalescing in hospital after having a heart attack, only heard the shocking news yesterday morning. It was kept away from Dr Treurnicht until Dr Willie Snyman, CP MP for Pietersburg and a medical doctor, told him in hospital yesterday that he is somebody who was his confidante is a suspect in the sensational murder case and is being detained.  Dr Snyman also said that everybody in the CP were shocked to hear about Mr Derby-Lewis' arrest. He was, however, not of the opinion that Treurnicht was very shocked because there is nothing in politics that upsets one to a greater extent. There is also nothing more known of the case against Mr Derby-Lewis.  Dr Ferdie Hartzenberg, deputy leader of the CP, said yesterday it came out of the blue and it caught the CP off-guard."
Now the gentleman referred to in this (...indistinct)?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did they speak the truth, and more particularly, Dr Ferdie Hartzenberg, that your "possible involvement came out of the blue", and that the Conservative Party was taken by surprise that one of its leading members was alleged to have committed a murder?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I don't know what Dr Hartzenberg said, but from what appears here, that is reported as to what he said, particularly as far as the quotation is concerned, and that is "uit die bloute" (out of the blue) and in other words it came out of the blue.  But -"en het die KP onverhoeds betrap" (caught the CP offguard), doesn't appear to be his words, so I don't know what he said in the full context.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, in order not to delay these proceedings, at the commencement, Mr Derby-Lewis, we requested by drawing attention to all the statements said to have been made by leaders of the Conservative Party, whether they will be admitted or denied, that they were correctly reported or not.  Have you and your legal representatives taken any steps to ask these honourable leaders whether they were correctly reported or not during the course of last week?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I think Mr Chairman, I will let my legal representative answer that question because he would have a much closer contact with them, because it is very difficult for me to converse with anybody in this situation.

GEORGE BIZOS: I accept that.  Could the counsel for the applicant please respond to the request that we made in the beginning of last week, Mr Chairman?

MR PRINSLOO: The reply to that is no, Mr Chairman, we have not yet consulted with the leaders or people referred to.

GEORGE BIZOS: May I request, Mr Chairman, that the Committee directs the applicant and his legal representatives to let us know as soon as possible, because this cross-examination cannot really be pressed home by Mr Derby-Lewis saying that he doesn't know whether they were correctly reported or not, and he may have to be recalled later.  So can we please know, Mr Chairman, when we will be told whether the statements that we referred to on the first day, were made by the leaders of the Conservative Party or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible to attend to this matter as expeditiously as possible, during the proceedings some time?

MR PRINSLOO: We will do so, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PRINSLOO: We will respond to this.