Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-02-17

CHAIRPERSON: Can I clarify something here, I'm afraid I'm a little confused.
	Did he give you  his application which is on page 3?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: No, he did not give me all of that.

MR RICHARD: Did he give you any of the application or did he only give you the statement?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: He gave me the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: That's on page 10.

MR RICHARD: Where was he when you were filling in your form?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't remember correctly.  I do not known, he may have been at work, but I filled the form in Johannesburg.

MR RICHARD: At that stage did you still regard John Ithumaleng Dube as your commander?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I'm not a soldier now.

MR RICHARD: I beg your pardon, I missed your answer.

CHAIRPERSON: "I'm not a soldier now."

MR RICHARD: Then, in 1997.

CHAIRPERSON: In 1997, what were you?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I was working.

MR RICHARD: As what?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I was working as a researcher at Afrisearch(?)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MR RICHARD: ...(indistinct) researcher at Afrisearch if I understood the answer correctly.
	Very well.  Now we go back to 1987, for how long as at you say July 1987, when the deceased was put forward as a potential member of your cell, had you known the deceased?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I knew Mr Dhlomo from 1986.

MR RICHARD: How did you meet him?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I do not understand what you are referring to, do you mean meeting in him in general terms or meeting him as a member of the unit?

MR RICHARD: You met him in 1986, is that the first time you met him, the first time that you knew there was a person called Sicelo Dhlomo?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now how did you come to meet him, where were you, who introduced him to you?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: We met is Sosco, so no-one introduced me to him because I was already a member of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, where did you say you met?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I met him in 1986 because he was a member of Sosco and I was as well a member, so no-one introduced me to him formally.

ADV SANDI: Sosco, will that be the Soweto Student Congress?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now let me clarify something I might have misheard.  Is Soyco which is the Soweto Youth Council, the same as Sosco?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Soweto Student Congress.

MR RICHARD: Are they the same organisation?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: No.

MR RICHARD: Now to which organisation did the deceased belong?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Soweto Student Congress.

MR RICHARD: That's Sosco?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: And you were also a member of that organisation?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now when did you meet him during 1986, which month, day?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I can't specifically remember because we were a number of us in the struggle as activists, so I cannot remember his case as such, as to when in isolation of others as well.

MR RICHARD: Was it before the middle of the year or after the middle of the year?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I'm not sure about that.

MR RICHARD: Do you remember the event at which you met him?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: We had met normally at some meeting.

MR RICHARD: Had you met him often or once or twice in 1986?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I met with him more than once.

MR RICHARD: And were there a number or weeks or months between the different meetings?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: If my memory serves me well, the meetings were held every week if my memory serves me right.

MR RICHARD: Now as a result of these meetings did you get to know the deceased?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Knowing a person as attending the same meeting does not suggest at all that you will be knowing the person through and through, so my knowing him would have been as a result of attending the same meetings as it happened.

MR RICHARD: Did you know where he lived?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, I knew.

MR RICHARD: Did you know the name of the school which he attended?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Pace.

MR RICHARD: Did you know what he was doing at Pace, which standard he was in?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: No.

MR RICHARD: Did you know that he was a member of the SRC at Pace College?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: So while you may not have become friends and socialised, you knew who he was and what he did?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now do you know the address of the Dhlomo family?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I know their house physically, I don't know their address as such.

MR RICHARD: Now did you ever stay at the Dhlomo house?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't understand what you mean by "stay".

MR RICHARD: Did you ever sleep at the Dhlomo house overnight?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: When was that?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I think in 1987 when I was still in my unit.

MR RICHARD: How often?  You say - would the word "frequently" be accurate?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't know how to explain it, but it won't be true when you say frequently.  I don't think frequently will be an appropriate word to use.

MR RICHARD: Did you sleep there often?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: No.

MR RICHARD: Very well.  While you were there did you get to know the family and bits and pieces of what had happened, history about recent events, did you share meals with them?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I'm not sure, but I was quite used to them.

MR RICHARD: Now would you know from your discussions and familiarity with the Dhlomo family and the deceased, anything about the parents, the Detainees Parents Support Committee?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I know that.

MR RICHARD: Well what did this Committee do?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I know it used to support the parents, especially those ones whose children were in detention.

MR RICHARD: And that means you knew as well that the deceased was a regular and reliable voluntary worker at that organisation.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I know he used to work there, but as to whether he was a loyal or honest worker I don't know.

MR RICHARD: Well on a number of occasions during the October, November, December '87 period you went to their offices and met with the deceased there.

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: There is no truth in what you have just said.

MR RICHARD: So that means that if I call a witness, Ntombi Masakari, to say that she remembers you being there on a number of occasions, she is a liar?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: She'll be lying, there's nothing like that.

MR RICHARD: So you were never there at their premises ever at any point in time?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: You are talking and referring to that period October, November, December, I never was there.

MR RICHARD: Well then that's your answer, you were never there.  Do you know where there offices are?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I knew their location.

MR RICHARD: Well where are their offices?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: It was Khotso House.

MR RICHARD: So that means we have established that as at October, November, December, January '87 and '88, you knew that the deceased was associated with the organisation and where their officer were?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't dispute that, it's true.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think he has agreed to those months, you are now, the question you asked him earlier was whether he knew about the organisation and he said he knew the deceased used to work there.  You are not trying to commit him to saying ...(indistinct)

MR RICHARD: Well when did you become aware of where the Detainees Parents Support Committee had offices in Khotso House?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: I also once was arrested.

MR RICHARD: When was that?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: In 1986.

MR RICHARD: In 1986.  And what is the connection between your arrest and the Detainees Parents Support Committee?

CLIVE MHLAULI MAKHUBU: Because during that time when I was still in detention an attorney came to me and told me that he was from the committee.