Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Mrs Ntombela, will you be able to continue, are you prepared to answer questions, or would you like us to - would you like to be given a chance to recompose yourself so that you can be able to answer questions posed to you?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: I will try.

UNKNOWN: If you feel that you cannot go on, we would request you to say so and if you need a chance to recompose yourself, please do say so.

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: I think I will continue.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'll ask the question again, you yourself don't know what happened on the day that your son was killed?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: No, I don't.

GEORGE BIZOS: You have heard some of the guards at Shell House say that they shot at people, you heard that evidence?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: Yes, I did.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you heard them say that they did it because their lives were in danger?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: Yes, that is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, did anybody, your lawyers or anyone else explain to you that according to the evidence your son was not killed from a gun that was shot by the people here in court that spoke, did anybody explain that to you?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: All I know is that he was shot, I do not know anything besides that.

GEORGE BIZOS: If I tell you that it is generally accepted in the evidence that your son was not killed out of a bullet coming from any of the guns used by these guards, can you not find it in your heart to say, well, I don't know what happened there, I'm told that the people that are before this Committee used guns, but their guns did not kill my son, can you not find it in your heart to say that, my attitude will change because I was not informed properly?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: What is bad is that a dead man tells no tails, now he cannot come forward and tell us as to who shot him and now I'm not going to listen to what is being said here, whether it is true or it isn't, I'm just not going to listen.
What I'm going to say is that I lost a son and that's it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did anybody advise you that in the difficult circumstances that you find yourself in, that there is an emergency fund to which you could have applied for help in order to solve some of your difficulties?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: I've never been informed.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, perhaps you can speak to the people working for the Commission, either when the court adjourns or tomorrow and try and find out.  Thank you, Mr Chairman, I don't want to ask any further questions.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Mrs Ntombela, I would just like to ask you briefly about the deceased's children.  How many children does he have?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: He has five children.

JUDGE NGCOBO: How old are they?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: I do not know their respective ages.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Are they of school going age?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: Yes.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Could you please just give me their respective classes?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: The first one is in standard 5.

JUDGE NGCOBO: And please give me his or her name.

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: The name is Mpendulo and Mpendulo is in standard 5.  Siboneso, Siboneso is in standard 3.  Siyabonga, Siyabonga is in standard 2.  Nontebo, and a set of twins who are at pre-school, their names are Sandile and Sanele.

CHAIRPERSON: What standard was Nontebo in?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: He was in first year, grade 1 or sub-A.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Was the deceased married?

INTERPRETER: The answer was not heard by the interpreters.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Who are these children staying with?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: They are staying with me.  The twins are with their mother.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Do you know marriage constitution was it?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: It was a white wedding, they signed at the Magistrates Court, it was not a traditional or common law thing.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I ask you, how old was your son, please?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: He was born in 1963.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you know what work he did?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: He was working at Allied.

MR LAX: Could you just give us the name and whereabouts of your son's wife?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: It's in Johannesburg.

MR LAX: And the name please?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: He was a truck driver at Allied.

MR LAX: Sorry, the question wasn't properly translated, I said what is the name and whereabouts your late son's wife?

MR VAN WYK: Mr Commissioner, can I assist you, she was of the objectors, she had attended most of the hearing here.  I do have some of her particulars which I can supply to you.  I see that she unluckily couldn't attend today because of her employment.

MR LAX: That's fine, just so we get it on record for the purposes of any possible findings that may be made.

MR VAN WYK: As you please, her name is Sesi Ntombela.

MR LAX: Thanks, Mr van Wyk, the rest we can get later.

MR VAN WYK: If necessary I can supply it to you, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR VAN WYK: Mr Chairman, there's one thing - I don't want to re-examine the witness, I just to place one aspect on record, it is not totally correct to say that this man was not shot and killed with an AK by one of the ANC guards, we will still submit he was shot and killed by an ANC guard, whether from the corner or from the parapet.  The ballistical evidence concerned the fragments, and the fragments ballistically could not positively be connected to a specific AK47, but that does not exclude either of the two AK47s.  I will address you on that aspect too.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand.

MR VAN WYK: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, may I perhaps with your leave just ask the witness one question?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR PRETORIUS: Your son, did he hold any position in the Zulu tradition?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: I don't know what position he had according to the Zulu tradition.  According to my knowledge he had none.

MR PRETORIUS: Do you know what an Induna is?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: Yes, I do.

MR PRETORIUS: And do you know whether he was an Induna or not?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: He was not an Induna.  There are two types of Indunas.

MR PRETORIUS: Yes, would you like to explain?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: There is a Chief and there is a person who is placed as a leader for the younger generation, that is the bachelors.

MR PRETORIUS: Did your son hold any of those positions?

VELI RAPHAEL NTOMBELA: No, he was nothing, he didn't hold any position.

MR PRETORIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.  This brings us to the end of the hearing for the day.  We adjourn now and we'll resume at 09h30 tomorrow morning.
HEARING ADJOURNS