Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-23

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you not shoot at other Black Cat people who were causing problems?  Why only at Obed?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: The situation that prevailed at that time, we were being chased and shot at and when I retaliated that's when Obed got shot.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you see that it was Obed that you shot?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: At the time I did not realise that it was Obed that I shot.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you realise that it was Obed that you had shot?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: When this happened because even from our group Dumsani got shot.  When I shot back I saw one falling down and I did not realise instantly it was Obed or who.  I realised it was Obed when we were at the hospital that it was him indeed who got injured.

MR MAPOMA: Now to your knowledge are there other people who were the members of the Black Cats who were injured there?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: No I have - I bear no knowledge of that.

MR MAPOMA: Now when this shootout or let me find out this first - are there others of the community or the ANC members who were shot at during that shootout?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Yes it is correct.

MR MAPOMA: So do I understand it correctly that it was a shootout between two factions?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is true.

MR MAPOMA: Can you categorise these factions, describe them these factions which you say they were shooting each other?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: It was the Black Cat members and us the self defence unit.

MR MAPOMA: Now why did you go to the hospital where Obed was admitted?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: When we were at Wesselton after all what happened at the disco, we told Mrs Umkosi that Dumsani has been shot and Mrs Umkosi went to the hospital.  When she got there we realised that there were Black Cat members who had gone there to take their member.  When they found Dumsani there they attempted to kill Dumsani that's when Mrs Umkosi came back to us to tell us that the Black Cats were at the hospital and attempting or wanting to kill Dumsani and that is it - it was at that stage when we left - when we went to the hospital.

MR MAPOMA: Is it not correct that you knew Obed was at the hospital when you went there?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: No, it's not like that, I didn't know.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you told us that you went there to the hospital specifically to finish him off?  You were informed that he was taken up in the hospital and that's why you went there?  Isn't that what you told us?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: No Mr Chair, I don't remember saying that.

INTERPRETER: The speakers mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you then not kill him - or why did you kill him then at the hospital, sorry?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Can you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you then kill him at the hospital, why did you shoot him?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: When we got to the hospital and discovering it was Obed lying there we realised that the instruction we got from Zwandile, the one who was in charge of the STU's - it was time that we bring it to fruition because Obed was already there at the hospital.

MR MAPOMA: Was he the only member of the Black Cats who was there?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Yes that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: But you say when you went there you had information that the - these Black Cats were there?  Were they not there when you're there?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: When we got there they had already left.

MR MAPOMA: Now at the disco when you were there you had already had instructions to kill Obed is it not so?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Yes it is so.

MR MAPOMA: Now the version you have given earlier on is that you shot at him not knowing that it was him, is that not correct?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Let me add if I realised that it was him when he got injured at the Extension, he was not even going to reach the hospital because the instruction had already been out.

MR MAPOMA: Now when you killed him at the hospital what political objective is it that you intended achieving?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: It is because Obed posing dosing danger to the ANC members or was danger also to the community of Wesselton so that as he was injured we saw it or we deemed it fit that since we already had the instruction that he should be eliminated we did not have any option but to eliminate him so that the other people can be saved should be get discharged from the hospital.  Knowing him he would have gone back to the people so we realised we will be saving the people as well when we eliminate him.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Khaba, were you not interested to know how seriously he was injured, maybe he was so seriously injured that he could have ended up a cripple and go out of operation?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Mr Chair, we had no idea as to how much he was injured but one thing we put into use was that he had to be eliminated according to the instruction, this is why we eliminated him, that was according to the instruction.

ADV SANDI: Yes but if he was going to end up on a cripple chair as the result of the first shooting surely he would have been less problematic in the community, there would not have been a need to kill him?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Regarding the instruction even if I discovered, I would discover that he would be wheel chair bound subject subsequently there was nothing I could have done because my senior had already given me the order or instruction to kill him.

CHAIRPERSON: Why wouldn't you be able to go back to your senior and say look something has intervened now, he's not such a danger to the community, can we review the instruction?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: According to my knowledge I cannot respond or question what my senior has given me, only after the action or what, only after we have accomplished the mission then we could discuss with this thing here but not before we carry an order.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't it a bit too late after completing the instruction to go have the decision reviewed?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: According to me I don't view it that way because when the order has been given or the instruction, I have no say thereof and I have no addition.

CHAIRPERSON: No, Mr Khaba, listen here.  The instruction is given by somebody who bases his decision on information that comes to him, not so;  and as we've heard in this case, in your evidence, that the instructor instructed the assassination of the deceased.  He relied on information, general and some of the particular information you gave to him, not so?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Please may you repeat your question or comment?

CHAIRPERSON: The instruction was based on information given to the person who gave the instruction?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: I will briefly say Obed was a resident of the same location.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you misunderstand my question.  Your commander gave you the instruction to assassinate Obed, correct?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: He made that decision based on certain information with which he was provided about Obed, correct?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That he was a threat to the community and he was a member of Black Cat group etc, correct?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Some of that information that he received came from you, correct?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what would be the position if you subsequently found out some of the information you had given was wrong or did you have new information which could possibly effect that decision?  Would you not be duty bound to go back to your commander and say look there's a change of information?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: No I couldn't have done that because they had already given the instruction that he should be killed.