Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Before you do, thank you, just two little comments.  The first one refers to your comment that you think Pik Botha might be a better person to respond, I don't agree with that,  you are here as the representative of the National Party and it's very hard to perceive things, events, in the way separating them in terms of who ran what departments.  The National Party were in government and I don't agree that he would be a better person.
 Just one last comment about the, the context again, you EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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know that the ANC, not only the ANC, just events we have to see them in a context and in the fact that Goldstone sat and made their findings does not really mean that everything is conclusive.  Other commissions on the third force were never conclusive and the new findings, in fact the Goldstone didn't tell us who that man who is supposed to have ...(indistinct) that they were being shot at by the crowds, was, we don't know who it was so there is still room for further findings.  Thank you.  Mr Kriel.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Chairperson, Commissioner I have been racking my brains to try and give you an answer on the person of Victor.  I cannot remember whether I appointed him or whether he was appointed by my predecessor but I can ascertain that and send through the information to you because I want, if you need that information, then I believe you should have it.  So I will from my side try and find out precisely what happened.
 All I can say is two things.  The first one is, to be, or at that stage to have been seconded to the Ciskei to be head of their police service or their Weermach, those weren't jobs that people were really looking for, if you understand what I mean, you had to use tough measures to send somebody here to give the necessary leadership because nobody wanted to come to the Ciskei at that stage.  
 You also referred to other officials that were seconded by the South African Government, yes that is correct, especially in the field of finance, because our conclusion that we came to through reports that we received, was that the expertise was really very much needed to prevent the total collapse of government at that stage, and therefore we had offered help at the request at the time till the 
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negotiating process which was on its way at that stage, but we still had that duty to try and prevent a total collapse of financial arrangements in the Ciskei.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you.  Your indulgence Mr Chair, just one last time.  The point I was really making about Major General Victor is not whether you appointed him or not, but that if the South African Government were committed to peaceful change in Ciskei why would it bring a person to the Ciskei to head the police division, a person who has a background like Major General Victor, that's really the point I was making.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: As I've said to you I don't know Major General Victor.  Apparently you've had some information and evidence before you which I have not the privilege to know about, so I am not qualified to comment on whether Victor was involved in Vlakplaas or what the situation was in respect of the General.

MR POTGIETER: Premier Kriel just on that point before I go to Reverend Finca, General Victor was appointed as Commissioner of Ciskean Police in April of 1991, I don't know whether you held the Law and Order portfolio at that stage?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, no.

MR POTGIETER: And then there is a media report in our possession, it comes from the Weekly Mail for the period October 30 to November 5 1992 and it refers to the fact that, well the section of the report reads as follows
"Last month Law and Order Minister Hernus Kriel named Victor as one of 100 policemen currently being investigated for undisclosed crimes.  Details of the state of the investigation have not
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been forthcoming".
I don't know if that assists you to place this ...(intervention)

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: No, because if I remember correctly we had more than one Victor in the service, and for me just to say that he was the one would be very - it would be un-  I cannot say that to the Commission because I honestly don't know, and I will be lying to you if I pass any comment on that.

MR POTGIETER: No I understand that.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: But there were quite a number of Victor's as there were Van der Merwe's etc, you will understand.

MR POTGIETER: We do understand in fact that you have got to respond off the cuff, but you have indicated that perhaps it is possible for you to ply your mind to it and if needs be perhaps we can be liaising with you in this regard and perhaps in some other regards as well.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: You are most welcome.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you very much.  Reverend Finca?

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you Chair.  Before I ask my question to Mr Meyer I would like just to get clarity on the main submission, page 20 paragraph 5, the paragraph beginning with the words,
"Those who were killed and injured at Bisho were at the wrong place at the wrong time being led by irresponsible and reckless leaders against a tyrant and regime...."
etc.  I'd like just to get clarity Chairperson from the leader of the NP delegation on whether that is a quotation or whether this is a statement submitted by the National Party?  Because I just want to reconcile that with other statements that they have made in this submission.
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MR MEYER: It is a statement Reverend, but can I explain because this is actually the conclusion that one has to come to, and that is that unfortunately those that were shot and that were shot at were there because they were actually led to be right there where they were shot by the person who we believe, unfortunately led them irresponsibly to be in that situation.  That is the conclusion that we are actually making.  It's not their fault.  It was not them who wronged, it was not they who made the mistake.  They were there rightfully because they thought they were participating in a demonstration, but unfortunately they were led too far.  And then the reaction also from the other side I also expressed, already was totally reckless.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you Chair.  Could I find out from Mr Meyer who are these people who the National Party is referring to as "irresponsible and reckless leaders"?  Could we not assume and just get the names of these people?

MR MEYER: Chairperson it is quite obvious that the person who led the demonstrators at that stage, at that very moment into this opening, through the gap in the fence, was Mr Kasrils, according to the findings of the Goldstone Commission and other evidence I believe submitted to you already.  So it was him in person, but I believe also it was indicated through other submissions and also in the Goldstone Commission that this was part of the so-called Leipzig Option, and whoever was responsible to design that for this particular day and for this particular occasion was also acting recklessly and that would be our submission.

BONGANI FINCA: Is the assumption Mr Meyer that the people who were shot were only that group which was led in a breakaway by Mr Kasrils?  Is it not correct that there were a number
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of other people who were shot who were not in that breakaway group?

MR MEYER: That is probably true Reverend.

BONGANI FINCA: Are they also covered in this paragraph, or is this paragraph referring specifically to the group that was led away by Mr Kasrils?