Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-08-30

KHOZA MGOJO: Mrs Mdluli, I'll ask you a few questions about your husband.  I remember we were still young then at Lamontville.  I was a teacher then.  I do feel bad that you went through these atrocities.  I would like to ask a few questions.  I will ask about a few people here.  Makhanya and Ngobese, are they still alive from what you hear?

WITNESS:   I don't know.

KHOZA MGOJO: You don't even know their whereabouts or where they live?

WITNESS:   I don't know.  I know that they come from Umlazi.

KHOZA MGOJO: When we look for them they'll be found at Umlazi?

WITNESS:   I don't know, but I know they come from Umlazi.

KHOZA MGOJO: Thank you.  When you wrote to van Zyl and Kruger responded what were his comments?  Do you still remember?  What did he say?

WITNESS:   Yes, I remember.  Firstly he was so arrogant when he replied me, he was just dismissing things that I was saying.  But the second time he sent those who said I shall go to the airport.

KHOZA MGOJO: Let me ask you, Mrs Mdluli.  You've talked about women who were coming from Gijima, who told you that there is a message from Ulundi that you have to go to the airport.  Is that true?

WITNESS:   Yes, that's correct.

KHOZA MGOJO: Do you remember those women?

WITNESS:   Yes, I do.  They are still around, they are not dead.

KHOZA MGOJO: Won't you please give us their names?

WITNESS:   It's Mrs Nyenge and Mrs Xasani.  Mrs Nyengwa.  They are neighbours.

KHOZA MGOJO: Are they still at Gijima?

WITNESS:   Yes.

KHOZA MGOJO: Xasani is a Member of Parliament of Ulundi?

WITNESS:   Yes, it's the wife.

KHOZA MGOJO: These are the ones who said you were to go to the airport at six in the morning?

WITNESS:   Yes.

KHOZA MGOJO: This Masondo that was sent by Kruger - that Kruger said that he had gone to overseas with you, is that Andrew Masondo?

WITNESS:   No, I don't know.

KHOZA MGOJO: He was in Robben Island?

WITNESS:   I think so.  The wife was a teacher in Soweto.

KHOZA MGOJO: This Moran Moore you are talking about, who took photos, pictures of you disguising to be going to the market, is that the late Mthiyane?

WITNESS:   Yes, it's Mthiyane who came from Lamontville.

KHOZA MGOJO: Did you get any death certificate for your husband?

WITNESS:   Yes, I do have.

KHOZA MGOJO: Do you remember what's the reason they put of death?

WITNESS:   No, I don't know.  You see I am not so educated, and I can't read.

KHOZA MGOJO: I think you should give us a copy of the death certificate, because that will help us, because you say firstly they had alleged that your husband died from the chair, and secondly it was the heart attack.  Now we have to get the fact that what the doctors had said.  If you could kindly come to our office and supply us with a copy of the death certificate that will help us a lot.

KHOZA MGOJO: Mrs Mdluli, there are a few things that I would like to ask from you.  I don't have to know where you stay, but it is important that I should know that the house that you occupy is it yours, or what?

WITNESS:   I don't have a house.

KHOZA MGOJO: Who do you live with?

WITNESS:   Any relative.  I am destitute.

KHOZA MGOJO: Secondly you said you had one son.  Did you have one son, or just one child?

WITNESS:   No, I had one child.

KHOZA MGOJO: That means you don't have any child now?

WITNESS:   Yes.

KHOZA MGOJO: One other thing that we focus on as the Truth Commission is that the most important thing of our task is the harassment that you've gone through.  As you are seated there we can tell that you've gone through difficult times.  This thing has traumatised you so badly.  Even your voice, one can tell from it that you are not comfortable, you are not as healthy.  Is there anything that you would like to say?

WITNESS:   I still want to emphasise on the van Zyl issue.  They were not the only ones.  There were some others.  When the Magistrate asked how many were they they said they were many, and the Judge asked, "Why did you come in numbers?"  They could not answer that.

KHOZA MGOJO: Well, I do get the point, the fact what you want to say, but my concern is about our health.  After that what happened?

WITNESS:   Well, I don't have any diseases except I am destitute and I am poor.

KHOZA MGOJO: Thank you, but we can see that you do suffer from psychological effect, or your behaviour it's not excellent.  We would like for you to contact our psychologist.  Would you like to consult a psychologist?  But one request that you put forward is the one that you are destitute and poor, but what is another request that you may want to put forward?

WITNESS:   Well, I'll still think about that one.

KHOZA MGOJO: Well, when you go and consult the social workers later on you must open up and ventilate and tell them what you wish the Truth Commission to do for you.

KHOZA MGOJO: Mrs Mdluli, we know what you have been through.  Do you know about what went on in Lamontville, and about the proverb that was being - that was saying there is no money?  Do you know about it?

WITNESS:   Yes, I know about it, and Dube was the one in charge of that.

KHOZA MGOJO: Like you have already said that the prosecutor in Pietermaritzburg said it is your son who injured your husband and suddenly they were claiming it were the police.  Do you know the name of the prosecutor who said all that?

WITNESS:   I don't know.

KHOZA MGOJO: Do you know about Jimmy Kruger, the one you keep referring to him, saying he's the one who kept responding?  Do you know about him?  Was he a police, or what?

WITNESS:   I think he was the head police.

COMMISSIONER: Mrs Mdluli, thank you very much for coming in and having the courage to tell your story to us today.  Your husband was a very well known man in Lamontville, not only in Lamontville, but in other parts of this province, and when he died in detention, and more particularly when the pictures of his mutilated body were sent overseas, his death and the circumstances of his death were widely reported around the world.  He died whilst he was in the custody of the Security Branch.  And these are people who should have upheld the law, but instead they often did the opposite, and harassed, tortured and murdered people.  We note from what you have said that one of the people who helped to find your husband's body was the lawyer, Griffiths Mxenge, and he in turn was also brutally murdered by the police some time after that.  And we hope that you are aware of, and can take some comfort from, the fact that the person who searched your house, Andrew Taylor, is now on trial for the murder of Griffiths Mxenge.

COMMISSIONER: You lost your husband and your companion, your breadwinner, and we can see that the memory of his death is still fresh in your mind, and we are glad that you had the courage to come here and tell us your story.  We note what you said about the amount of money which was paid to you after you lodged a civil claim against the Government, and we will make recommendations to the Government as to how we think that you should be assisted.  So we thank you again very much for coming in and talking to us.  Thank you.

WITNESS:   I also thank you.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Mthetwa, we welcome you here today.  Thank you for coming in.  You have come to us - you live in Lamontville, and you have come to tell us about the death in custody of your son, Ephraim Thamsanqa Mthetwa, in 1984.  Before you tell us what happened can you stand to take the oath please.

ERNEST MTHETWA: (Sworn, States)   (Through Interpreter)

COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much.  Dr Magwaza will help you now.