Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, are we ready to carry on?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman and members of the committee, we are ready, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Chairman, I'm going to lead the evidence of the witness, Captain Jonas Hendrik De Waal.   The witness is sitting next to me, may he be made to take an oath?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: (sworn states)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr De Waal, you were a captain during the year 1993 in the SAP?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know the witness by the name of Derby, Gaye Derby-Lewis?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is it correct that you knew her at the time when she was detained under section 29?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And at that time you also had the opportunity of interrogating her?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr De Waal, will you please tell the committee as to what happened between yourself and Mrs Derby-Lewis during the interrogation?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Chairperson, I was ordered by my commander, Colonel At van Niekerk, to question the detainee at Edenvale Police Station.
	I went to see her on the 24th, it was a Saturday, at 17:37 that afternoon.   With me was female Constable Strydom and a Sergeant Human.    
	We booked her out of her cells and took her to an office numbered 11.   There I offered her a chair.   She sat down and the rest of us also sat down and then I warned her according the rules of the law.   I told her that I was Captain De Waal and that I was connected to the security police and I was stationed at John Vorster Square.   I gave her the opportunity to read my certificate of appointment.  She read it.   She took her time to read all the particulars on the appointment certificate and she was satisfied that I was the person who I said I was.   After that, I told her that I had been tasked to question her in the presence of the other members of the police services, and that what she would say would be put on record, and that any other admissions could be used as evidence against her if she were to be prosecuted.   She said that she understood that.
	I began with the questioning.   I told her that during the initial stages, I would like to have an historical report from her regarding her political involvement with right wing organisations, as well as that of her spouse, as well as an historical report regarding herself.
	She told me that she had been born in Australia.  I said very well, that would be a good point to begin.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't want you to tell us everything that she said about her background and so on.

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: I'm sorry, I'm telling you this in detail.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: It was something which happened about five years ago, it's quite a long time ago.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that I would be interested in knowing whether the interrogation or the questioning of Mrs Derby-Lewis was done in the ordinary course of questioning and interrogation of people, or was there something unusual about it?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Very well.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Where particularly did this interrogation take place?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: The questioning or interrogation took place at the Edenvale Police Station buildings in office No 11.   I was tasked for this purpose because I did not live very far from the Edenvale Police Station, it was easily accessible for me.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How many times did you conduct interrogations with her?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: It was on the 24th of April and then again on the 26th of April, the Monday, I continued on the 26th, I'd just like to consult my dates, and the last time that I had anything to do with her was on the 30th of April, but during this period, I saw her practically every day, apart from the 25th, until we had taken her statement.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, when you took her out for interrogation, was this recorded?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Chairperson, the prescribed procedure was that a file would be opened, which would be in the charge office in every police station where section 29 detainees were being held, and in that sort of file there would be notes and you would record whether or not the detainee had any complaints, any other details about the detainee, where he would have taken them, whether or not they were visited by the magistrate or the station commander, any such details.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman and members of the committee, I'm going to refer to Exhibit Z.   The committee members do have the exhibit.   I want you to have a look at Exhibit Z in front of you and turn particularly to page 4.   At the end of page 5, there is a signature.   Is that your signature?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now I want you to go back to page 4 then and tell the committee whether what is written thereon was written by yourself?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman and members of the committee, it's the last paragraph on page 4.   Is that your own handwriting?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That is my handwriting.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was that the first interrogation you had with Mrs Derby-Lewis?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you mind reading what you have written thereon?
MR DE WAAL
"1993, 24th of April, 17:37, detainee Derby-Lewis booked out of her cell with Sergeant Human for questioning and statement.   Had no complaints or requests and thanked me for the clothes which she received.   Questioning took place in office 11, Edenvale Police Station.   Present:  myself, Sergeant Human and female Constable Strydom.   Next time 18:55, questioning ceased at 18:55, detainee had no complaints and returned to cell.  Prints and signatures taken."

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now during this first interrogation, was there any ill-treatment of Mrs Derby-Lewis by yourself?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: No.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you make any suggestions to her as to how to write her statement and what to say in her statement?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: No.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now I want you to turn now to page 22, still on Exhibit Z, Mr Chairman and members of the committee, or perhaps to make a better sequence, page 19 first, let's please start at page 19.   Page 19, Mr Chairman and members of the committee.   Do you see your handwriting on that page?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you mind reading what is contained thereon?

INTERPRETER: Speaker's microphone is not on.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm afraid mine isn't - is this a typed, a printed page, "Bylae E"?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: And does it start on the top, the 29th of April 1993?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That's right.   Do you mind reading that for us, Mr De Waal?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Yes.
"1993.20.5, detainee Derby-Lewis booked out for further questioning by myself, Sergeant Miller and Investigating Officer Smit.    She had no complaints."

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now I want to believe that this is the second interrogation?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Chairperson, the first was on the 24th, and if I'm not mistaken, the second took place on the 26th.   Or no, this date would appear to be the 29th.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Okay, let's concentrate on the very one you have just read on page 19, did she make any statement to you?

GEORGE BIZOS: If you look at page 11, there's an entry there for the 26th made by this witness.

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That's correct, that is what I was referring to and that was my second date of questioning
"Detainee Derby-Lewis booked out of police cell with female Constable Strydom.    Had no complaints and was taken to office No 11 at Edenvale Police Station for questioning and for statement."

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did she make any statement at the time, on the 26th of April?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: She made a statement.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did she voluntarily make that statement?