Human Rights Violation Hearings — Venda — 1996-10-04

RUSSELL ALLY: Welcome, you are going to speak on your own behalf about something which happened to you.  I am going to hand you over to Commissioner Lyster who is going to administer the oath and who is also going to assist you in going through your statement.

TSAKANI MABOYA: (sworn states)

MR LYSTER: You are employed as a teacher, is that correct?

TSAKANI MABOYA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LYSTER: You came to tell us about your treatment at the hands of the security police in and after 1978, is that correct?

TSAKANI MABOYA: Yes, that is true.

MR LYSTER: Will you tell us that story.  Can you just tell us, sketch for us briefly what you were doing in 1978 and what was the political situation in Giani at the time, which led to your arrest and detention.  Just give us a short sketch of what you were doing and what the political situation was in that area at the time.

TSAKANI MABOYA: In 1978, the security police were very rude, it was difficult for a person to do anything politically.  In March 1978 my cousin came, but now it is late, it is (indistinct).
 I knew that my cousin was in exile in Tanzania, so he came to visit me.  He came to my parents house before coming VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
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to me.  During that time I was staying alone, I was unmarried by then.
 I welcomed him in my house.  After some time I told him that I heard that you were in exile and then he said, we'll talk (indistinct), because there was my girlfriend there.  After my girlfriend left, he started explaining to me how we left.  I was supporting them.  The main purpose for him to come to Malamlele was a person who was locating the basis putting arms caches.
 I resigned teaching in 1975, I was managing a general dealer at home.  I had to go around with him to - I just used to show him the police stations how they are situated, where they were located.
 And I requested him that if he wanted to destroy the police stations, you must know that these police stations, Blacks are working there and all your Blacks are working there and if you go and plant a bomb, Blacks are going to die.
 The people we are trying to fight against are not there, so we were travelling together around and most cases I was at work.  I used to see him during the evening.
 Sometimes when I come back from work, he used to go alone, sometimes I used to come back and we will come back late in the evening. 
 I stayed with him for two months.

MR LYSTER: We apologise for the delay, there is something with the speakers and the technician is looking at them.  We will resume in a short while. ... (tape ends)

TSAKANI MABOYA: The others, I still remember them.

MR LYSTER: Were you able to return to work after you were released from detention?
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TSAKANI MABOYA: Yes, I went back to my work with the help of those who were working for me.  They used to drive me, I became active after some few months.

MR LYSTER: Were you a teacher or are you still this managing this general dealership?

TSAKANI MABOYA: By then I was working in that general dealer.

MR LYSTER: Is that after you were released from detention and you suffered terrible nightmares, you developed violent tendencies, you were a very different person, is that correct?

TSAKANI MABOYA: I never received any counselling.

MR LYSTER: Did you ever advise a Doctor of what was happening to you, did you ever ask for any medication?

TSAKANI MABOYA: During that time, people were afraid.  When you leave the police station, they said to you, what happened to you, you don't say to anyone outside.
 There were people who were monitoring your movements so it was difficult for me to go to a Doctor to tell him what happened to me.

MR LYSTER: And the purpose of the torture, was to try and extract information from you about your cousin, is that right?

TSAKANI MABOYA: Yes, they wanted straight information from me and they wanted to know if we were burying some weapons, but what he told me, he said to me, he just wanted to see the police stations, the location of the police stations, where they were situated.
 And then he told me that he can't give me anything because I was not trained, you can't resist the interrogation.  So he was just telling me theoretically how they used to do them, he never showed me practically.
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The firearms I left it at home, because my father was having a licence for a firearm.
 I only used them when I go to bed, I didn't want to even handle a gun.

MR LYSTER: In your statement, because you didn't say here in your evidence today that after torturing you for a very long period of time, you in desperation you made a statement to them and drew a map as to where certain arms were hidden underground and they took you to this place and they used a metal detector to look for the  arms, look for the weapons and when they had found them, you had, that what you had said was not correct or true, then as punishment, beat you up and tortured you again, is that right?

TSAKANI MABOYA: Yes, they assaulted me, they assaulted me because of that.  I couldn't even see, my eyes were swollen.

MR LYSTER: ... Information as to the whereabouts of weapons or arms, is that right?

TSAKANI MABOYA: I never had any information about that, because I was not trained.  He said I am not going to tell you.
 His purpose was to work with him permanently, so my father trusted me in the business, so I would be forced to leave the business and join him, so because he was my relatives, he said you can't leave my grandfather alone.
 My father is his grandfather.

MR LYSTER: Thank you very much.  I am going to ask my colleagues if they have any further questions to ask you.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mr Maboya, you had two, you made two statements revealing how dangerous the position you come from of conflict, was.  You told your cousin to be aware of the Blacks as the Black policemen who might be at the police VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
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stations, who would have been likely victims of the bombs if ever there were bombs. 
 And at the same time, you put it very well that not all Whites were bad and this you discovered while you were in detention.
 I don't know what thing can account for that kind of contradiction or that kind of a picture, when for one reason or another at one stage you would think this way and at another point, you will think this way and yet the system itself was still intact?

TSAKANI MABOYA: When I say not all White people were bad, I was referring to the policemen.  While I was in Duiwelskloof, he sacrificed his job because he never had any permission to take me to hospital.  He never had any permission from the security police.
 He was just feeling pity for me.  So if he was bad, I don't know, the situation.

THOMAS MANTHATA: You were able to understand good when it manifested before, whether it came from a White policeman or what and the good as you knew and understood the position of the Black people to be at that time, whether they were policemen at the police station.  I don't know if I get you correct there or if I am making sense in what I am saying?

TSAKANI MABOYA: Yes, I understand you.  I don't know if I can differ with the Commissioner, if I don't understand properly.  When I was referring to Black policemen at the police station, it was headed by Black police.  It was a system for them to be there.
 They didn't like to work like that and most of the people - I was against the killing of Black people.   We were forced by the system to work like that, I was against 
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that myself for him to plant the bombs.
 I don't know if I've answered it correctly.  I don't know.