Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-03

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I cannot explain why I didn't go out straight away, I am trying to speculate as to why I didn't go out straight away, because I know I didn't go out straight away.  I did not see the people coming out of the bus, being off-loaded, I didn't see anything of that, so obviously I was still in that sleeping facility.

MS THABETHE: I will tell you why I am asking this, Mr Baker, it is because I am trying to determine - in your evidence you kept on saying you did not have an interest in this operation, it wasn't your operation, so I am trying to find out whether was it part of you not having an interest in the operation, because it wasn't your operation that you didn't go out to find out what was happening?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I wouldn't put it like that that I had no interest in the operation, obviously I had an interest as to what was coming out, but I cannot give an explanation as to the break in time.  I mean it was only  a couple of minutes, it wasn't as if I stayed there for half an hour before going out.  It was a couple of minutes, I didn't follow him immediately when he went out.

MS THABETHE: When did you follow them then?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: As I said earlier, I followed them within a matter of minutes.

MS THABETHE: When she was being questioned?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: A matter of minutes that I went out and when I went out, the people were already in that room, busy with interrogation.

MS THABETHE: Right, and that is why you kept on going in and out, to find out what was happening?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is why I then went to find out, basically had they arrested terrorists and then I was informed that it was not the terrorists, that it was the - Ms Khubeka, the deceased and then the second time, I went again, I put my head in and found out what was going on and they said, no, well, there is still no information on the MK cadres that were supposed to have infiltrated and that is when I left with Mr du Preez.

MS THABETHE: So would you say briefly even though it wasn't your operation, you did have an interest in this operation?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Obviously I had an interest in what my people were doing, yes.

MS THABETHE: Okay.  Let me move on, you have also indicated in your evidence, that at some stage  Mr Coetzer left the camp.  Was this after the removal of the body, would you say?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Excuse me, could you say that again?

MS THABETHE: I say you indicated at some stage that Mr Coetzer left the camp, would you say it was after the body was removed?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I am not sure, as I have said in my evidence, I am not sure exactly at what stage they left, it could have been before, it could have been after, I am not sure.

MS THABETHE: Would you say it was after you were informed that the lady had died, or after?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: After I had been informed, when I returned with Mr du Preez, I was informed obviously when Mr Botha came to inform Mr du Preez that she was deceased, I heard it then and subsequent to that ...

MS THABETHE: Was Mr Coetzer still at the camp?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Yes, he was still at the camp.  Subsequent to that, I told Mr Coetzer that he and the people should withdraw to C.R. Swart.

MS THABETHE: So you don't know whether he left before or after the body was removed?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I don't know what time they left, I cannot give an estimation on the time.

MS THABETHE: Okay, maybe let me ask this question, you have indicated that you, you say
"... Capt Botha decided that her body should be removed and be placed elsewhere."
	When were you told this?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Capt Botha told me that.

MS THABETHE: When?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: In the course of our having arrived and in the course of that evening, I don't know if it was straight away or if it was half an hour later, I am not sure, I cannot give an estimation of time as to when it was that he informed me.

MS THABETHE: Would you say he told you after the body had been removed or before the body was removed?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That the body was to be removed?

MS THABETHE: Yes?

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question is ...

MS THABETHE: You say Botha decided that her body should be removed and placed elsewhere, right?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Yes.

MS THABETHE: What I am asking is, did he tell you this before the body was removed, would you say he told you this before the body was removed?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, but Mr Baker is on record as saying he doesn't know when the body was removed, he never saw it.  He won't be able to assist the Commission before or after the body was removed.

CHAIRPERSON: We know from the evidence that we have heard before, that the body was removed after Mr du Preez returned and therefore you returned with the food.  Now, did you eat that food?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I have no recollection if we ate that food, I doubt that.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there a braai on the go there or something like that?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: How long did it take to have that meal?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: There wasn't a braai on the go, if I remember correctly, all I would have got was bread and Coca-Cola or something.

CHAIRPERSON: How long did you hang around before going to sleep after you returned back, more or less?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I should imagine that it could possibly have been an hour, an hour and a half to two hours.

CHAIRPERSON: And was it in that period that Mr Botha told you that the body was to be disposed?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Yes, I would imagine that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he say that he is going to dispose the body or that the body has been disposed of?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No, no, if I remember correctly it was that the body was going to be removed.

CHAIRPERSON: So in other words you got the impression that it was something still to be done?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Still something to be done.

CHAIRPERSON: So he must have told you before it was removed?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct, yes.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.   And when he told you this, was Mr Coetzer still at the camp at that time?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Yes, Mr Chairman, I assume he was still at the camp at that time.

MS THABETHE: Okay, another question I wanted to ask you is, in the last paragraph, page 156 of your application you talk about the fact that a purpose I guess of removing the body to be placed elsewhere was to prevent the secret facility being identified and further to prevent the ANC from learning that their safehouse had been exposed.  How did you know this, were you told by Botha?  How did you know what the purpose of removing the body was?

UNKNOWN: Can you just tell us from where you quoted, please Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Page 156, the last paragraph, the third line.

CHAIRPERSON: They are saying that they didn't want to have the facility exposed or the police investigating.

MS THABETHE: I think why I am asking this, I just want to ascertain the purpose, I am interested in the purpose of removing and placing the body elsewhere.  According to your statement, you are saying that the purpose was to prevent whatever, whatever, what I am asking is how do you know this, how do you know what the purpose was?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I was informed by Mr Botha that it should be removed so as not to have the facility exposed.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Mr van der Merwe, do you have any re-examination?

UNKNOWN: I have no re-examination Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman, do you have any questions that you would like to ask?

ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you Chair, just a few.   Your members had been down on this operation for about six weeks?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, that is how I understood it.