Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-10

MARY BURTON: Thank you very much.  I am sorry to have made you condense a very comprehensive testimony into a short time, we really appreciate it very much.
 I would like to ask one question.  I don't know whether any of my colleagues may want to ask questions too.  You mentioned seeing people you refer to as "witdoeke", for instance in the Zwolani Centre incident.  How do you identify those people, I mean were they known to you or do you identify them some way as being "witdoeke?"

MARK BLETCHER: Well, many of them had particular tags of cloth on their arms which identified them.  Also really during that period, there was a clear polarity between the two sides.
 There was the battle between two sides and the term "witdoeke" is used for the one and comrades is often used for the other.  So it was fairly clear which were the two sides.  
 Also "witdoeke" tended to carry particular weapons, knives and panga's and sticks and so on and have these tags and so on.

MARY BURTON: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other questions from the panel?  Dumisa Ntsebeza?

MR NTSEBEZA: My only question is whether you are going to make available a copy of your comprehensive report to the Commission?

MARK BLETCHER: I can do so.  I probably need to remove some of the identities and put some of the different pieces together, because I've spoken as you've noticed, from several different pieces here, but I will be happy to do so.

MR NTSEBEZA: I will remark that you need not remove anything without consulting with us.  Those are the details that we would like.  We are sworn to confidentiality in terms of the Act and we would have to discuss about that.
 Maybe you would want to meet and see what you can and cannot remove.

MARK BLETCHER: Okay, we could discuss that.

CHAIRPERSON: Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela?

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Can you speak English?  Yes, about the 14 year old boy you showed us a picture, how was he caught by the police?
 You were trying to tell us that he was in your clinic, isn't that so?

MARK BLETCHER: I am not sure exactly how he was arrested and also at this point it is often difficult as a health worker sometimes to establish generally what happened.
 So I am not sure precisely  what the nature of the episode was, but we saw hundreds of people like this young boy.  Many injured in the back, many shot at close range and we are certainly - I am sure some of them did have stones or sticks in their hands at the time when they were shot, I think the clear impression that we as health workers got during that period, was of an overwhelming use of force on the one side compared to the other.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: It is interesting that you have said you treated the boy's wounds or injuries and you were called to testify against him by the police.  I also find that interesting.
 My last question to you is  as we were always reading and following the statements from the Cape Argus in Khayelitsha, reports on the state of health in Khayelitsha.  You mention in your testimony that the clinic Saca was illegal, it was considered illegal and in fact it was not provided with any real help by the Cape Provincial Administration.
 Did you ever resolve this issue of the illegality of the clinic?

MARK BLETCHER: That was addressed mainly during Dr Myburgh's testimony, so I will let him respond more generally to that.  I think it would be more fairly for him to respond.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Yes.

NEIL MYBURGH: I think it wasn't so much that the clinic was illegal, it was given tacit recognition in that we were not demolished earlier that we were, but the fact is we were doing the work that was the responsibility of the State.
 They had officially, formally and consistently neglected to do their duty, which is why there was such a need for our service and while legally, they could probably have walked us out at any moment, they didn't, probably because they realised  that they may then face a bigger crisis.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And the Argus article that reported on this issue, did it expose the neglects of the State of the Provincial Administration?

NEIL MYBURGH: There were actually a number of occasions where Crossroads was accused of being a health hazard to Cape Town, it went to court as well.
 The fact is that people were not questioning those things at that time.  Most of the residents of Cape Town thought Crossroads was out of sight and out of mind, it didn't concern them and so when the medical officer of health said that squatter camp is a risk to your health, they simply accepted that that was true and if you could bulldoze it and get rid of it, that was a good solution.
 Clearly that was no solution for the people of Crossroads and I think that factor probably contributed to the overall conflict that developed there.
 Certainly Crossroads became an icon of resistance that was probably more prominent than any other place in this country, over these events.
 So any method to get rid of it was considered acceptable and we've now heard some of the really nasty procedures that were used.  It was one of the most rapid slump clearance operations which the country has ever seen.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: With your permission Madam Chair, I know we are pressed for time.  Just one last question, how were you perceived in your community as people who worked in this so-called dangerous areas that had to be removed, how were you perceived?

NEIL MYBURGH: I think some thought of us a lunatics, but others - our feeling was that for all of that time, we had the majority support and collaboration of the Crossroads community almost in its entirety.  While the community did get split through this fighting, the average community person, the women and the children who were our main patients, were still there, still appreciated the work we could do and still gave us support.
 The fact that I could go in there every day alone, unescorted, even in the height of the conflict, I think was a testimony to that.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Speaking of women, I remember that Di Hewetson has always been associated with the work of the clinic and Ivan Thoms as well, one of the founder members of the clinic (indistinct)

NEIL MYBURGH: That's right, unfortunately they couldn't be available today so we've had to speak on their behalf.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Mary Burton?

MARY BURTON: Dr Myburgh and Dr Bletcher and we see that Dr Graham Breseck who was also on the Saca clinic staff is here with you today, we would like to thank you and I am sure that there are thousands of people who would like to join us in paying tribute to you and to all the many people who worked at the clinic through those very, very difficult times and also to the founders and the funders who had the vision to identify the need for the clinic to be established.
 And to other medical personnel, one thinks of Red Cross people when they were going in and out of the area and the people who supplied the nutrition clinics and all the other work that was done to care for the people as you have so clearly said in the absence of State provision for the care of the people of the area.
 We would really like to thank you very, very much for this submissions you have brought to us today and I think that your meticulous records will in due course be part of the history of this part of Cape Town and in that way also help us to paint that picture of what really happened.
 So we really value your submissions very much, thank you for coming.

CHAIRPERSON: We will now adjourn for tea.  Please can I ask you just to have tea for 15 minutes because we are running late.
 Could you please be back in the hall by 11.30, thank you.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS FOR TEA UNTIL 11.30: .