Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-30

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson, there may be a communication gap.  If Mr Lax would please emphatic in this context as you understand it?

MR LAX: Your answer was emphatic in the sense that the information was definite and core.  It's clear now from your subsequent answers which is in line with what you testified previously that the totality of the information only came about much later and in conjunction with further information from, on your version, Mr Ndaba and so on and once - the English word escapes me, the "ontleding", the analysis of that information had been carried out.  At the time of raiding or burglarising this particular place and this is what Mr Gordhan is putting to you in essence, he is saying there was no information of such a nature that it could have given you core detail.  Have I put it correctly?  That's what I understood your question to be.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, perhaps if I can explain.  If you look at the scope of Operation Vula, perhaps that is the problem that the totality of the operation has never really been exposed completely here.  We are familiar with an army bag, if you had to fill this with computer printouts that would be an idea of how comprehensive that information was.  That information emerged at the end of the investigation and what was found at that apartment upon two occasions that we entered the apartment was information which was not in such a large quantity but which had enough core value and you will see that I gave evidence that there were three phases in which this information was evaluated and the final phase was at the end of the day.  When we took the decision to inform Pretoria, it was as a result of the information that was embodied in those documents which were comprehensive enough to explain the NCW Network and if Mr Gordhan wants to deny that that existed I would say that that information was good enough for us to take the decision to consult Pretoria head office.

MR LAX: You see, what Mr Gordhan is putting to you is you didn't get that information, if I understand it correctly, from his computer in that flat, you got it from some other place.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Once again I will say I received that information from that apartment.

MR GORDHAN: Well Mr Botha, you must make up your mind.  In the first instance you had a servant, so to speak, in Charles Ndaba who was your informant way back in '88 from the moment he came into the country, you had six weeks or so to interrogate him/question him/enquire into what he was happening.  Was that the source of your information where the disks, the computers and the printouts that you collected at some other place were the key source of your information or are you saying that a flat would actually have administrative information and core propaganda material is a key provider of information to you.  What are you saying?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, perhaps Mr Gordhan could answer this question before I answer his.  Does he know that weaponry was in that apartment?

MR GORDHAN: Yes and I'm sure that when you burgled the place you planted that as well?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well we won't get into debate on that.

MR GORDHAN: Can we get back to my question please?

CHAIRPERSON: The question, Mr Botha, is it's put to you my Mr Gordhan that what was contained on that disk that was in the flat in Brickfield Road that was burgled was certain administrative information and what he called core propaganda information.  Would you agree with that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, the information that we drew from that computer and not only from the computer, there were also other documents to be found in the apartment.  What we found there was sufficient to supplement the information that we had already received from the informer, it was sufficient to inform the security head office that the information which had come to our knowledge at that stage regarding what the president's committee was and what later became known to us as Operation Vula.  It was sufficient to inform them about it.

MR GORDHAN: When did you say you burgled the flat?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The Saturday evening or the Sunday evening, the 7th or the 8th.

CHAIRPERSON: Of July 1990?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Saturday and Sunday, two nights?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It was two nights.

MR GORDHAN: But ultimately you only go to the headquarters on the 11th July, many days later.  You had the information from that Saturday or Sunday night, you had everything that you claimed that you have, conclusive proof that there was this operation on the way and yet it takes you three or four days to go to your headquarters and tell them this is what's going on?

MR VISSER: That's not the evidence.  The evidence was that they went on the 10th, Chairperson, Tuesday the 10th for as far as this may be relevant.

CHAIRPERSON: I can't recall.  So the burglary took place on - we take it that the 7th and 8th was a Saturday and Sunday and then you must have, Mr Gordhan must have been arrested then on the ...(intervention)

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The 12th, the Thursday.  The 10th was a Monday and that is when I informed General Steyn.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh sorry, so the 7th and 8th - so it must have been the 8th and 9th?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I beg your pardon, Chairperson, the 7th was the Saturday night, the 8th was the Sunday night, the Monday was the 9th and that is when I informed General Steyn, Tuesday the 10th we went to Pretoria.  On the 12th Mr Gordhan was arrested after the arrest of Mr Nyanda.

CHAIRPERSON: So you went the next day after the last break in?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR GORDHAN: Just for the record, Chair, of course I'm contesting, Mr Botha, that you arrested me after Mr Nyanda.  You actually arrested me before Mr Nyanda.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I'm not going to dispute this point.  The fact is that Mr Gordhan was not present when Mr Nyanda was arrested so I don't think that he has the capacity to put this.  He was arrested by Warrant Officer van der Westhuizen and that is my response.

MR GORDHAN: Just one last set of questions, Chairperson, and that is again in terms of Mr Ndaba's relationship with Mr Botha and Mr Ndaba was the only of the two detainees, Chairperson, of Mr Shabalala and Mr Ndaba that knew of this flat so that you have that information.  He was a member of, I think you mention in your earlier evidence, a military committee.  What did he say about the membership of that committee, who were the members of that committee?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I did not give evidence indicating that he was a member of the military committee, you've just said so.

MR GORDHAN: Do you have any recollection of that information being passed on to you?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes.

MR GORDHAN: Who did he say were members of that committee?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: He mentioned quite a few names.

MR GORDHAN: Can you think of one other than his own?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The detail is no longer known to me but it is available.

MR GORDHAN: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR GORDHAN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any questions - sorry, Mr Lalla, do you have any questions?

MR LALLA: Mr Botha ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, your mike's gone off again.

MR LALLA: Mr Botha, from the time that I came in to the time that I got arrested, so what are effectively telling me from the summary of all these events you knew my movements?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson, I've already testified this morning that I did not know your movements.

MR LALLA: But you testified as well that you knew Mr Gordhan's movements?

MR VISSER: He did not say anything of the kind, Chairperson.