Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-12

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That may be so, I cannot dispute it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why would Mr Barnard tell all these other people but not you?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Probably because I did not have any contact with him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Excuse me?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Probably because I did not have any contact with him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: That can hardly be so, Mr van Zyl?  Do you accept, you are now aware that Mr Barnard has been found guilty of the murder of David Webster?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Do you accept the finding of that Court?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I do so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So we can start off from the assumption that Ferdi Barnard murdered David Webster on the 1st of May 1989, correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Approximately a month later, you decide to hire Mr Barnard to send him to Cape Town, to get involved in the Omar project?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: At this stage, are you willing to concede that you at least had heard the rumour that Mr Barnard killed David Webster?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I have to deny that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You hadn't even heard a rumour?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: How might it be possible that, and this is on the version of your superiors in the CCB, what they say is that after Mr Luitingh reported this to Mr Verster, an investigation was launched to ascertain whether what had been said, had been true and what steps should be taken.  Nobody came to you and said to you "Barnard has told Luitingh that he has killed Webster, what do you Mr van Zyl, have to say about this"?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Nobody told me.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I am going to put it to you, I am going to argue at the end of these proceedings, that you and the other members of the CCB who are applying for amnesty here, knew full well by the latest on the day after David Webster was assassinated, that in the first instance, Mr Barnard had shot David Webster?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I deny that vehemently.

MR KAHANOVITZ: We are also going to argue that this was something that you were fully aware of at the time that you decided to involve Mr Barnard in the Omar project.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I deny that too.

MR KAHANOVITZ: We are also going to argue that you most certainly did not hire Mr Barnard because of his intelligence capabilities, but because in your view, he would be better suited as an accomplished murderer, to assassinating Adv Omar than Peaches had been up to that stage?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I deny that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, you will be aware that Mr Barnard in his criminal case, was not merely charged with being party to a conspiracy to murder Adv Omar, but he was charged with the attempted murder of Adv Omar, correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I saw that, yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, if we can go to the judgement of Judge Els at, let's first look at page 85 of that judgement.

CHAIRPERSON: In the same volume, but towards, no, about in the middle of bundle G.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, in the middle of page 85 the Judge is dealing with the evidence of certain Brenda Milne.  I think that is one of Mr Barnard's ex-girlfriends, is that right?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That may be so.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He says as follows
"... Brenda Milne testified that the accused had a list in his possession of persons who had to be eliminated.  Dullah Omar's name appeared on one of these lists.  On occasion, when the accused was in the Cape, busy with the monitoring of Omar, he contacted her and supplied a Cape Town telephone number to her which she had to call.  She had to, using a fictitious name, arrange an appointment to speak to Dullah Omar.  She had to determine in this manner where Omar was and what his movements were.  After he had on occasion returned from Cape Town, the accused informed her that he waited in the garage next to the vehicle of Dullah Omar, for him to come out and he wanted to shoot him then.  He said that he had a weapon with a silencer with him and the accused said that he aborted the plan, because a woman, something that he did not expect, appeared with Omar and climbed into the car with Omar."
	Okay.  Now, that is where the Judge is summarising the evidence.  Later on, let's turn to where the Judge makes his finding at page 229.  Mr van Zyl, maybe you can save my voice, just read what the Judge finds there under the heading "Aanklag 2".
MR VAN ZYL
"... It is clear from the evidence which is common cause, that the charge of conspiracy to murder, has been proven.   We are actually of the opinion that the evidence proves beyond reasonable doubt that the accused's handling has already gone so far, that it can be seen as an attempt.  It is the case that the evidence of van Zyl, Slang van Zyl, shows that the accused person did not commit the murder, but that Peaches Gordon would get other people to do it.  He testifies that the accused person only had to do the monitoring of Omar, but we can actually not agree with the State that van Zyl's evidence in this aspect, must necessarily be rejected.  It is not necessarily clashing with the admittance that the accused person would have made to Brenda.  It is quite possibly the case that the accused person wanted to elevate his status with the CCB and it is insightful that the accused person, at some stage, indeed did have a Makarov pistol with a silencer in his possession.  We are satisfied that Brenda's evidence about the statement that the accused had made, can be accepted.  According to  the statement, he was outside the house with the weapon and he wanted to shoot Omar and we are satisfied that the accused person had the intention to commit murder and that this act of his can already been seen as an executed handling, and therefore he is found guilty on the charge of attempted murder."

MR KAHANOVITZ: The word was "execution handling".  Mr Barnard in fact says that you offered him money to murder Adv Omar, not in his criminal trial, go to bundle B, page 92.
	Look at the bottom of page 92, Mr Barnard says -
"... Slang van Zyl showed me a Makarov pistol with a silencer and said that this had been the weapon that Jack had given to them, in order to complete the task on Omar.  There had already been coloureds of a crime faction in the Cape, who would complete the task according to Slang.  Slang then asked me if I didn't want to do the job, seeing as I would be paid R50 000-00 for it."
	Now, do you deny that you offered Mr Barnard ...

MR MARTINI: Mr Commissioner, may I just intervene here.  I think for, to make it quite reasonable, is the situation that one should read the whole paragraph, and it is quite clear from further down the paragraph, that this was considered to be a, not a serious proposal and that it was actually a joke that was made at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if you could look further, I haven't seen it myself, Mr Kahanovitz.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I am aware - Judge for purposes of this question, if Mr van Zyl says that the money was offered but it was a joke, or let Mr van Zyl say so ...

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any mention of offering or paying money to Mr Barnard?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No Mr Chairperson, not that I can remember.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl, I am not, maybe you can give us a straight answer here, I mean either you offered Mr Barnard...

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I could never have done it, there was not a budget of R15 000-00 on this project, where I could have gotten R50 000-00 to give it to Barnard if he executed it, no one knows.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did you ever offer Mr Barnard money of any amount whatsoever to kill Dullah Omar?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, not at all, under no circumstances.

MR KAHANOVITZ: All right.  Mr Barnard, when he says that you offered him money to kill Dullah Omar, is according to you, lying?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Exactly.