Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-23

J H VLOK: And definitely some of the female personnel who were working there at that stage but the importance for me is that even though he continued with the election and maybe didn't identify himself with us any more - the principle of the matter is, is that we identified ourselves with Terreblanche and his political organisation which is the AWB and we acted on behalf of them, we fought for them and the Conservative Party and the Afrikaner Volksfront formed a coalition and they would have also have offered their assistance so I continued to believe that there would be a Volkstaat and that war would be waged for that purpose and that's why we committed these acts and that's why we went there, in order to fight a war to obtain our Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: If that's the case, why on one of Kriel's questions you answered "well he might have taken part or he maybe planned to take part in the election" but you thought he might have had a double agenda?

J H VLOK: That's how I saw it, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you are saying it didn't matter to you whether he was part of it or not.

MR BRACHER: You see, Mr Vlok, that's exactly the point.  The key to getting the army involved was General Viljoen and by the time you arrived there or by the time the AWB members arrived there on about the 14th April, you knew that that was no longer a possibility because you knew by then General Viljoen was taking part in the election, is that correct?

J H VLOK: No, Chairperson, I told you that I cannot tell you exactly when but at that stage, I knew that it was said by General Etsabeth at the Trimpark and he said that the army, in co-operation with the police, would also lend us assistance.

MR BRACHER: Well the key to this uprising was General Viljoen with his "milit1ere opleiding". You say in paragraph 11 at the top of page 92 - you believed because of his military background that he will lead the Afrikaner to freedom and that was what this gathering was all about.

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I believed that General Viljoen would assist us because he talked about thousands of men who he had available to provide or to assist us, the AWB, to reach this goal of ours.  Please repeat the second part of the question?

MR BRACHER: I said that was the key to the whole movement -was General Viljoen with his military background leading you with the help of the army to your Volkstaat.  By the time you arrived there on the 14th, by the time the AWB arrived to gather on the 14th April, that was no longer a possibility because he was part of the election.

J H VLOK: At that stage I did not know that, that he was already part of the election.

MR BRACHER: Well then you didn't take any notice of what was going on in the election that you bombed people about, is that correct?

J H VLOK: I was aware what was going on.

MR BRACHER: Mr Vlok, if we're to believe your evidence, you killed innocent people without knowing anything about the political events of major importance in this country.

J H VLOK: But Mr Chairperson, my instructions were given to me by my officers.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it as follows, Mr Vlok, as I understand your evidence, you did not know of what was going on politically and in this country just before the election -that was war and that is it, is that correct?
	What would have happened if the government of the day said to the AWB "here, take your Volkstaat" - you would not know about it, is that correct?

J H VLOK: Yes, we would have.

CHAIRPERSON: How?

J H VLOK: I believe that our leadership, our Generals, would have conveyed it to us as the message just came to us.

CHAIRPERSON: But you worked in the office - would you not have known about it?

J H VLOK: I would have, yes Mr Chairperson and I believed an instruction would be given to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know everything that was going on there regarding politics when you worked there?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Especially where it was about the AWB?

J H VLOK: Yes, more or less I knew everything that had to do with the AWB.

CHAIRPERSON: When Mr Viljoen decided that he was going to take part in the elections, did the whole world, basically the whole world took note of the statement that he made and in the AWB office they did not know about it?  The day when he made this announcement.

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, they did know about it.

CHAIRPERSON: You know about it?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So, you knew?

J H VLOK: That he was going to take part - yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is the day when he announced it?

J H VLOK: Yes, but I cannot remember the specific date.

CHAIRPERSON: But that was weeks before the election?

J H VLOK: I cannot remember, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Before the meeting or the whole operation did you then know that you will not have the support of the whole Defence Force?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I was under the impression that the Defence Force will be present because General Etsabeth said that the Defence Force will assist us and that they will provide us with equipment and armoury.

CHAIRPERSON: That person, was he a formal member of the Defence Force or was he an AWB General?

J H VLOK: No, he was an AWB General.

CHAIRPERSON: So the whole point is that a person who would guarantee the assistance of the Defence Force and that was Mr Viljoen and now he left, he went to go and take part in the election in the Cape?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I assume that if he will not provide us with the weapons or with the Defence Force assistance, it would be through the AWB that we could get this and the decision rests with the command structure of the AWB what to do further if General Viljoen did not identify himself.

CHAIRPERSON: And how many soldiers would that be?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I assume and I believe it would be forty thousand men.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the AWB is without the Defence Force assistance, how many soldiers would put this Volkstaat in place?

J H VLOK: I do not know because I wasn't part of that planning.

MR BRACHER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Vlok, the last answer you gave me, I'm not letting you get away with.  You said "I received instructions from my officers".  We know that you didn't get instructions from any officers - you merely had conversations with people of equal rank to you - Myburgh and Barnard - is that correct?

J H VLOK: Repeat the question please before I can answer it?

CHAIRPERSON: Your last answer to me was that you worked on instructions from "my offisiere" but you did not have instructions from any officers senior to you, you had conversations with Barnard and Myburgh who were both Captains in the Ystergarde - equal rank to you - is that correct?

J H VLOK: No Mr Chairperson, I received an instruction from Cliff Barnard to assist them.

MR BRACHER: How do you get an order from somebody of equal rank?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, he was my senior, he was there longer at his office and I, because he had the rank of a Colonel in the Kommando, I also saw him as a higher officer.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps in fairness to the witness we must accept that this wasn't a conventional army - some strange ways of communication.

MR BRACHER: The evidence was they had structures of military as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Well not the way we understand it.

MR BRACHER: I'll leave it to argument.
	Mr Vlok, I want to get from you the time when you went from defence to attack and you answered Mr Kriel's question here that when you gathered at the Wildsplaas it was still for the purpose of defending the Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: He went to the Wildsplaas.