Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-26

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman I am prepared to go and make available the report given to me by the 
Investigative Unit as far as this incident is concerned Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Because I ask these questions because it was put, I think, by Mr Currin that McFadden 
was living in that house and I think that if he was living there, if he was known to have been living there by 
people in the 
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UNKNOWN: neighbourhood it is extremely relevant to the inquiry as to the attack on him that night.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is so.

JUDGE WILSON: We have no information, it is just that Mr Currin mentioned it. Is there information that 
he was living in that house?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I do not have that information. That was brought by Mr Currin.

JUDGE WILSON: Right, now, can you tell me Brigadier what you were armed with that night?

UNKNOWN: I was armed with an automatic 9 mm firearm Chairperson.

JUDGE WILSON: And how many times did you shoot Mr McFadden?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson,I cannot say, with an automatic weapon it is difficult to determine but I 
would never have emptied my entire magazine on him and then run the risk of having being without 
ammunition.

JUDGE WILSON: Now I ask you this because you chased this man into a bedroom where the light was 
on, he was wrapped in a blanket apparently, why did you kill him?

UNKNOWN: As I had already said Mr Chairperson, I did not know what he could have had under that 
blanket, whether it was concealing a firearm or not. I could not have been sure.

JUDGE WILSON: You couldn't have been more than a few yards away from him, if that, could you, were 
you?

UNKNOWN: I was standing in the doorway.

JUDGE WILSON: The bedroom door. Why didn't you shoot him through the shoulder or the leg, wound 
him so you could ask questions?  Why kill him?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, I have already said that I 
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UNKNOWN: could not run the risk of injuring or missing him and then having him shoot me.

JUDGE WILSON: So what was at stake was your life against his and you had no choice but to kill him, 
you didn't want to give him any chance, is that the position Brigadier?

UNKNOWN: That was my perception at the time that if I did not shoot he would shoot and I could 
possibly have died.

JUDGE WILSON: You could have watched and seen whether he produced a gun from under the blanket 
that was wrapped around him. You were in the dominant position, weren't you, standing, armed, ready to 
shoot?

UNKNOWN: Chairperson I explained that I kicked the door open and started firing immediately, I did 
not wait to see whether he had a firearm or not.

JUDGE WILSON: You didn't wait to see.

UNKNOWN: I was in as much danger if he had had a firearm and had shot at me. It would have been 
my life and not his.

ADV DE JAGER: Brigadier do you know if Eugene de Kok was charged in connection with this incident?

UNKNOWN: No Chairperson, I do not believe that he was.

ADV DE JAGER: Was this not one of the charges which was brought against him.

UNKNOWN: No. I think that because it was in Swaziland he was not charged.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You testified of your own and tell me if I am wrong because I got the impression that 
you said that because you had been told that Cecil was to be found in the house, you were under a 
misconception that McFadden could have been Cecil and that is why you shot him?

UNKNOWN: That is correct and then I would have known 
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UNKNOWN: the opposite that Cecil would have been armed.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Now, I am not so sure, at the end of the day whether you killed Mr McFadden because 
you were worried that he might produce a firearm from underneath the blanket or you are saying that you 
shot him because you thought you were killing Cecil?  Or whether it is both reasons combined.

UNKNOWN: If I had found Cecil there I would definitely have shot him but I was not sure if it was 
him and I was trying to prevent the fact that McFadden was Cecil.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But you did see somebody jump out of the window?

UNKNOWN: No Chairperson, I heard about that later.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Oh, 54.
		"Thereafter he went into the bathroom and he locked himself in, somebody else who was 
in the house jumped out of the window and ran away".

UNKNOWN: I could have put it like that, but as I said I was in the house at that time and I could not 
see that window and I heard that from one of my people later.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Is that what you were told, that somebody jumped out of the window?

UNKNOWN: Ja, that is correct Chairperson.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I see.  But I think I was under the wrong impression because it doesn't say that - you 
don't say in your statement, you don't say that somebody told you so. But I will accept what you are telling 
me that you got the information from somebody else.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Chairperson.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Cronje, when you obtained a report from the informers in Piet Retief, that Mr 
Nyanda was staying with another person by the name of Cecil, did you make any 
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UNKNOWN: attempt to get in touch with both Brigadier Schoon and General Steenkamp to inform them that you have 
now come into possession of other important information that another important and dangerous person was 
staying in the house where Mr Nyanda was staying? Did you make any attempt to get in touch with your 
superiors about that information?

UNKNOWN: As I said, Nyanda and Cecil were always together and my commanding officers knew 
that so they could have assumed that Cecil could well have been there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But the instructions from Brigadier Schoon and General Steenkamp was to eliminate 
Mr Nyanda and Mr Nyanda only?

UNKNOWN: I assume and I believe that they would also have given permission that Cecil also be 
eliminated.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were there any difficulties you would have encountered in confirming those 
assumptions with Brigadier Schoon and General Steenkamp?

UNKNOWN: Could you please repeat the question?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Would it have been difficult for you to confirm your assumption that the instructions to 
eliminate Mr Nyanda also would have applied to Mr Cecil? What would have been difficult for you to 
confirm that with both Brigadier Schoon and General Steenkamp?

UNKNOWN: I believed that they would have granted permission anyway because Cecil was also a 
trained terrorist who was assisting Nyanda in these operations so I did not expect them to object such a 
thing.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you saying then, Mr Cronje, that the information about Cecil was also the 
information which was in the knowledge of both Brigadier Schoon and General Steenkamp, I thought that 
was the information that you 
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UNKNOWN: obtained from the informers in Piet Retief?

UNKNOWN: No, no, no. Brigadier Schoon and General Steenkamp knew beforehand that Cecil was 
working with Nyanda.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yet, Mr Cronje, they made no mention they gave no instructions that you should 
eliminate Mr Cecil as well. Isn't that strange?

UNKNOWN: I believe that they would have issued that instruction Chairperson, I have no doubt about 
that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: If they had known about Mr Cecil, is that not a fact?

UNKNOWN: They knew about Cecil and that he was operating with Nyanda.

UNKNOWN: The question was, why did they not give you instructions to eliminate Cecil if they knew 
all this?

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, I can only say that if they had given me the instruction or had said that I 
should eliminate Nyanda that it is possible that they could have said both. I believe they did say so to me 
but I did not mention it like that.

JUDGE WILSON: Are you now changing your evidence and saying they did give you instructions to kill 
Cecil? Is that what you have just said?