Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Now, you've described Colonel...

UNKNOWN: Honourable Chairperson, if I may interject at this point.
	Gerrit Erasmus is being represented by Wagenaar, Muller & Du Plessis.  I have been sent a letter from their offices which may shed some light on the issue.  Beg leave to hand up the letter as-where are we now - exhibit "M".

GEORGE BIZOS: "M" yes.  Well, we will have regard to this letter.
	Mr van Zyl, I want to ask you about the personal relationships.  Colonel Snyman remained a Colonel in Port Elizabeth, but Van Rensburg rose to what rank?

MR J VAN ZYL: Major General.

GEORGE BIZOS: And Du Plessis raised to what rank?

MR J VAN ZYL: Colonel, full Colonel.

GEORGE BIZOS: In relation to the exercise of real power and authority in 1985, who really called the shots in Port Elizabeth?  Snyman or Van Rensburg?

MR J VAN ZYL: Colonel Snyman was the Divisional Commander of the Division, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  You and I know that, but that's not the question.
	The question was who really called the shots?

MR J VAN ZYL: In what respect?

GEORGE BIZOS: Who was the pro-active person, the dominant person in the Security Police in Port Elizabeth?  Snyman or Van Rensburg?

MR J VAN ZYL: I am not sure if I follow you, Mr Chairman.  Colonel Snyman was the senior, Colonel Van Rensburg was a Lieutenant Colonel at that time, and he became a Colonel I think during the time that I was here.

ADV D POTGIETER: I think, Mr van Zyl, the question is, if you want to put it that way, who was the "big boss".

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Snyman, without a doubt.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, that was on paper.  But who really was the dominant person in the branch?

MR J VAN ZYL: Who took the strongest lead, Mr Chairman?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MR J VAN ZYL: Colonel Van Rensburg was a different type of person to Colonel Snyman, who was as I said yesterday a soft spoken, soft hearted person who was good with administration and Colonel Van Rensburg, I would say, was probably the one with more field experience.

GEORGE BIZOS: And was the question of elimination of Goniwe a matter of paperwork or field experience?

MR J VAN ZYL: Now I see what you're saying...

GEORGE BIZOS: I though that you would have got the idea a long time ago Mr van  Zyl.
	I asked you who was calling the shots, and you have given two or three answers in the hope of my leaving the question there.  Why can't we have a straight answer that the branch was really being run in the field and in the control of the personnel, it was Van Rensburg.

MR J VAN ZYL: Not to my knowledge.  Colonel Du Plessis was in charge of the section where I worked, and he was much more of a leader of us in the field than Colonel Van Rensburg was, who was not active in that regard at all.  But Colonel Van Rensburg referred us to Colonel Snyman in this matter.

GEORGE BIZOS: As a matter of formality, after he had given you an order to put the plan into operation?

MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot answer for him, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van Zyl, do I understand you correctly, are you suggesting that Mr du Plessis was more acquainted with the field than Mr van Rensburg.

MR J VAN ZYL: Not more acquainted, but due to his lower rank and his activities, he was more involved, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you say that he was more assertive than the rest?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, I would not say that, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: You, in your application, speak of the GBS in a number of places and the pressure that it was putting on you in order to find a solution to the problem.
	Who told you of the pressure at the GBS?

MR J VAN ZYL: As far as I can recall that was either Major Du Plessis at various occasions from Colonel Snyman, and Colonel Snyman himself at Officers Meetings.

GEORGE BIZOS: And Van Rensburg?

MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot recall that he referred to the GBS.

GEORGE BIZOS: What were you told about the pressures of the GBS?

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, this was a general feeling that was conveyed that Colonel Snyman was actually under pressure from the GBS as head of the Security Police to do something constructive and to find a solution, although the politicians did not offer any solutions at that time.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, Minister Le Grange apparently offered a solution if we are to believe Mr Snyman's affidavit.  Kill Goniwe.

MR J VAN ZYL: I have subsequently heard of that, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Now what about the pressure from the army personnel and the Chairman of the GBS, Mr van der Westhuizen?

MR J VAN ZYL: I have no personal knowledge of that, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was it not reported to you?

MR J VAN ZYL: Not in person.
	Not that it was him in person that put the pressure on.

GEORGE BIZOS: Had you not heard that an ultimatum had been given to him as Chairman of the GBS that unless things were dealt with in the Eastern Province, he would lose his job?

MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot recall that I heard anything like that at the time, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, you speak about pressure.  What pressure was there?

MR J VAN ZYL: It was probably the same pressure that was put on us, which was just a pressure that we had to find solutions as well, and get information about the situation, but it was out of our hands.

GEORGE BIZOS: When you say pressure to find a solution.  When there's not directive as to what possible solutions you were to find, how were you to solve the problems?

MR J VAN ZYL: I don't know, Mr Chairman.  That is what made the time a very frustrating one.  In the middle eighties.

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't you ask when it was reported at meetings at the GBS, pressure is being put to solve the problem.  Well what did they suggest?  Did you ask?

MR J VAN ZYL: I don't know what was suggested.  I do not know if I asked.  We discussed this often.  We discussed the various options that were open to us.

GEORGE BIZOS: Had it come to your notice that the Security Council consisting of army personnel, security personnel, police personnel....

UNKNOWN: Will you excuse me.  I just want to pick up on your previous question if you don't mind.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, of course.

UNKNOWN: Mr van Zyl, the JMC was representative of a number of state departments and interested elements?

MR J VAN ZYL: That is how I remember it.

UNKNOWN: And now the question is, if someone in the JMC exerted pressure, the total JMC could not have exerted the pressure.  What was the driving force behind the JMC?  Who brought this about?

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairperson, I do not have very good knowledge of the composition of the JMC at that stage.  I do not know precisely who they all were, my JMC knowledge was based upon that which I heard from senior officers.
	I think that Colonel Van Rensburg or Snyman are in a better position to say who they regarded as the driving force within the JMC.  I am really not certain, Mr Chairperson.

UNKNOWN: May I just ask, from who in the JMC do you think the pressure was exerted?

MR J VAN ZYL: I would say from the institutions which dealt more security, or who were at the head of things regarding security.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did it come to your notice at any time that the head of the army had redefined murder as excluding any killing of any of the enemies of the State by unconventional means provided it did not boomerang on the State?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairman, I have no knowledge of that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, your description of the killings here fit into that exclusion from murder by the head of the army.  Was this killing by unconventional means?  Leaving aside your mistake with the gun.

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And, was the manner in which it was done calculated that there should not be any comeback to the State?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct, Mr Chairman.