Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-03-30

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, he did not mention any of this.  What I can remember was that Captain Siebert told Goosen is there no aeroplane available.  Apparently there was no aircraft available to transfer him.  Indication was that according to the medical people he could be transported by road.

ADV BOOYENS: You drove to Pretoria, to Central Prison?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I remained at the vehicle and Warrant Officer Fouche, Wilken and Siebert handed Mr Biko over to the prison authorities.

CHAIRPERSON: How did he get from the vehicle to the Central Prison?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It has changed now.  At that time, at the entrance to reception we stopped there, and they supported him, and they carried him in.

CHAIRPERSON: What kind of support?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Meaning he was in between them, and he was leaning on them.  The two of them on either side of him.

CHAIRPERSON: And his feet?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Well, he was dragging his feet according to me.

ADV BOOYENS: He was taken inside.  You remained at the vehicle, you did not go inside the prison and when they returned, you returned to Port Elizabeth?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And later you heard that Mr Biko had died?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: On your arrival at Port Elizabeth, on page 23, paragraph 28, what happened then?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It was on a Saturday.

ADV BOOYENS: When did you hear Mr Biko had died?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: This was the following day.

ADV BOOYENS: When you had returned to PE?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, after our arrival because we left immediately for Port Elizabeth, and the following day when I arrived at the office, I heard the report that Mr Biko had died.

ADV BOOYENS: You mentioned something about a Saturday?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: On Saturday, not long after the death of Mr Biko, we were called together.

ADV BOOYENS: By whom?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: By Colonel Goosen.  Where he stated that we cannot make public what had happened there, because it would put the government in a bad light.  We must make our statements a day later of what happened.

ADV BOOYENS: I don't think you are putting it clearly.  You had to change the date of the incident to a day later?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: And these false statements were made, affidavits were made?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: And this was perpetuated at the inquest?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: There is a gap of a day, it looked like the man was hurt a day later?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It appeared that this incident happened on the 7th instead of the 6th.

ADV BOOYENS: Mr Niewoudt, you made this false affidavit - why?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It was on instruction of Goosen.

ADV BOOYENS: What was Goosen's motivation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: His motivation was that the government of the day should not be embarrassed and they would - the recall of the security legislation would be effected by this.

ADV BOOYENS: And to cover up that the man did not receive medical attention?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Do you confirm, you have given verbal evidence, but do you confirm what appears in your amnesty application regarding the Jones and Biko incidents?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Mr Niewoudt, here are two incidents here.   Firstly an assault and secondly an involvement with manslaughter and perjury?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: What was the motives behind this, why did these incidents happen?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Firstly with regard to both the assaults with regard to myself, on Mr Jones and Mr Biko, this was in connection with interrogation of the person to gather information from the persons, to neutralise the unrest of the Black Power Movement, that was the main motivation.

ADV BOOYENS: You have dealt with it previously, but during 1977, your personal belief then with regard to the policy of apartheid, the whole policy of the security legislation, what was your personal belief with regard to this?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I believe that it was justified.  My Dutch Reformed minister held sermons with regard to this.

ADV BOOYENS: The policy of the government then, were approved of?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What did they say - just the policy of apartheid ...

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: They identified with the policy of apartheid, they never said that it was wrong, that one should not do this, one should not do that.

CHAIRPERSON: But I am sure they did not mention that the methods of the apartheid policy had to be guarded, did they agree to that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: As long as we did not embarrass them, they did not say that you must go about illegally.

ADV BOOYENS: What the Chairperson wants to ask you Mr Niewoudt is, are you saying that the Dutch Reformed Synod approved that people were to be assaulted?  I think that was the question.  The principle of the policy was approved, but the fact of assaults - we are just talking about the church now.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.

ADV DE JAGER: Just to join up here, what was the attitude with what we called terrorism at that time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: They were opposed to that, to the terrorism and they prayed for us spiritually to fight against this terrorism.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this terrorism in general or just black terrorism?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It was terrorism, general terrorism against the State or the government of the day.

ADV DE JAGER: At that stage the attacks on the State it was mainly by black nationalists, so they did not speak out and say fight also white terrorism, they said fight terrorism?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.  They were propagating the survival of the white State.

ADV BOOYENS: Just to continue with the political motivation that you mentioned before.  Why does a country have Security Police?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: To protect the State.

CHAIRPERSON: Does this include the government of the day?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure, according to you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: In the present circumstance he cannot survive if there was an attack on him, and he does not have the security network, it needed the security network to survive.

ADV BOOYENS: The Security Branch, the work that you did, was this directed to keep the National Party in government at that time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: The intention of the Black Power Movement was amongst others to overthrow the government and put in place another government?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct, with force.

ADV BOOYENS: Mr Niewoudt, we are just coming back to what you mentioned about the Synod, the background how you were brought up, the political talks that you heard, propaganda and so forth.
	Were you at peace with this that what you were doing was necessary, did you feel it was wrong or right?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I believed it was correct to protect that order, and I was loyal to this cause.

ADV BOOYENS: At that stage you were a Sergeant, how do you feel with reference to the death of Mr Biko and the assault of Mr Jones, how do you feel about that today?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I am sorry that it happened.  I just wish to say further that I hope that in future it wouldn't happen again with any other Police instance, that it would not happen again - these incidents would not take place again and there would be reconciliation in the country and that everybody would work together to establish a beautiful South Africa.

ADV BOOYENS: At page 24 paragraph 10(a), you summarise your political objectives?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Do you confirm this?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.