Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-26

MR NGUBANE: All right, after this (indistinct), you say that there was some quiet of some sort, is that right?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, it was quiet because there was no one present at that yard, except for the four of us.

MR NGUBANE: What did you do then?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: We then approached the vehicle and we removed all guns that were on the ground.  I think there were four in all and we removed them and left.

MR NGUBANE: What type of firearms did you remove?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: There were three HMC's and one shotgun.

MR NGUBANE: The members of the police that were guarding the pay out of pension monies, were they also the members of the kwaZulu Police?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Did you know their route of travel as they were escorting the vehicles to the pension points?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I did not have sufficient knowledge because pension pay points were different, but we only went to this one at Tapuka Store.

MR NGUBANE: How did you know that they would be carrying firearms?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I received knowledge or information from Luthuli, Mdluli and Dlamini were the people who had initially  given me information and they had also received that information from Luthuli.
	They are the people who told me that that opportunity had arisen to acquire weapons, because Luthuli had told them that they would be escorting this pension money, so all this information had been gathered from Luthuli, who was amongst the people who would be escorting people paying out pensions.

MR NGUBANE: Was Luthuli at any stage at the scene when this robbery took place?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, he was present.  He was one of those policemen who had been escorting those people.

MR NGUBANE: What became of him at the stage when you say only the four of you were at the scene, after the robbery had been committed?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: He fled, he dropped his weapon.  As a person who had had the knowledge of what was going to happen, although he had thought that we were after the money, he just dropped his firearm on the ground, because he had knowledge of what was going to happen.   He did not give us any problems, he just disappeared amongst the crowd.
	We retrieved all weapons from the scene.

MR NGUBANE: At page 318 of your application, I think it is page 318, if the members can just bear with me, let me just check, I think it is page 318, you mention that there were certain utterances that were made, yes, page 318, utterances that were made by people like Brigadier Marte, that is paragraph 2, towards the end of paragraph 2.  Can you tell us about those utterances?  Can you recall?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Brigadier Marte came to the kwaMashu police station, we were all gathered for a lecture, which was held once monthly.
	He then addressed us because at that time, he was the Commissioner of the kwaZulu Police.  We were also pleased that the Commissioner had actually visited us at the police station.
	During his address, he mentioned that we as the kwaZulu Police should be aware on which side our bread is buttered.  He continued and told us that as members of the kwaZulu police, we are the Inkatha police.
	I was shocked to hear this because I did not understand how he could utter something like that.  I didn't realise that the reason why people are shooting at us all the time, why the communities hate us so much, it is because we are regarded as IFP police.  I did not feel good about what he said, although there was nothing I could say or do at that time.
	People were not actually pleased when they heard this, because as a Commissioner of the police, he is not in a position to talk in that manner.  As a policeman, you should not be seen or you should not take sides because you would not be able to work to protect everybody.
	But that is what was happening at kwaMashu at that time.

MR NGUBANE: Did this in any way contribute towards influencing you to lean towards the ANC and to try and acquire these firearms illegally?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes.  It played a role.  What he did was like driving a nail into the wall.
	I realised that what I was doing, was right if that was the situation.  If the Commissioner wanted us to take sides, I realised that then I was doing the right thing.
	I also realised that my colleagues in the Police Force, were also following his orders because they also took sides, for instance if they went into a certain area, they would be taking sides.
	I then realised that they must be following his orders.  I also felt that what I was doing, was right.

MR NGUBANE: At page 321 of your application, there is a document which purports to be your affidavit, but it is not signed by you.  Are you aware of this document, this document was sworn to is that correct?  Page 321?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I am not aware of this statement.

MR NGUBANE: But is it correct that you saw it before coming into this house, is that right?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, my legal representative showed it to me.

MR NGUBANE: In this document, at paragraph 2, you say that you are, well the document says that you are a member of Inkatha.  Did you ever say to anyone that you were a member of Inkatha?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: No.  If I may be given an opportunity, maybe I can explain how it came about that this statement, or such a statement was written.
	Although I was not aware that it was actually being written down, it is not signed because I was not aware of its existence.	  There was somebody that I once spoke to, although I did not mention specifically which political organisation I belonged to.

MR NGUBANE: Mr Chairman, may I seek your guidance here.  It looks like the evidence that he might lead regarding the statement, is pure speculation.  I wonder whether it is necessary to go through that?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, what I gather is that the witness denies that this is his statement?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Does he say, just confirm it for me, that the first time that he saw this was when it was shown to him by yourself?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Does he have any idea as to how it came into existence?

MR LAX: Who did he speak to, he says he spoke to somebody in prison.  Who was that person, we can start there.  If that person comes forward and says he produced this after talking to the applicant, that will be a different matter.  Who did he speak to?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you very much, I will then take him further.

MR LAX: Let him just tell us, who did you speak to Mr Hlengwa?  Who came to prison to speak to you?