Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-05

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes.
	"For all of the above operations, I accept political and general responsibility for them.   For people who acted under my command, whether they carried it out without my assistance or specific instructions.  They were people who were trained and educated in the policies of the ANC, by me, and hence I take responsibility for these actions and support their respective applications for amnesty on these operations.  On behalf of all those who acted under my command, and on behalf of the ANC, I wish to state on record that I truly regret the injury and death that I have caused during the pursuance of the armed struggle, whether directly or indirectly.   
	An issue appeared to have arisen during the evidence given during this hearing, as to why two operations are placed in chapter 5 of the ANC submissions, namely the Klein incident and the Pine Parkade incident.  The explanation inter alia is that all the incidents for which I have been convicted, I had applied for amnesty for.  I did not state these specifically in my application form, but rather refer to my indictment.   Hence, during the compilation of the ANC submissions, the ANC was unable to ascribe responsibility mainly because they did not have my trial records, which included the indictment and wherein these cases were outlined.  Hence, as an administrative error, these were placed elsewhere.  
	In any case, all these acts, including these two have been supported by my Commander, Aboobaker Ismail, comrade Rashid.  As will clearly be noted, the versions and attitude on all these operations in my trial evidence, differs from my present evidence.  One of the main reasons for these differences is that during the trial, I was really being tried for my life, and I was facing four charges of murder, five of attempted murder and various other serious charges.   
	My being an ANC member would in itself have aggravated my position in the eyes of the Trial Bench.  If I had testified that I was instructed to carry out the Why Not operation, as now testified by my Commander, comrade Rashid, it is obvious that there would have been no extenuating circumstances found as premeditation would have been common cause, previous MK guerrillas who were tried for cases of murder in which it was established that instructions were given, were convicted and sentenced to death.  They usually were hanged.  In one such case, a person was sentenced to death for what is tantamount to Contempt of Court charge, he had not killed anybody and here I speak of James Maunge.  This was the atmosphere in the country at that time.  I also wanted to protect my organisation by not talking about them and their instructions to me.  Hence I did not refer to instructions during my trial with regard to this operation.  
	In addition to this, I as an oppressed person did not feel that there is any moral imperative or onus on me to have to be truthful or honourable with the regime that oppresses me and uses its judiciary to perpetuate discrimination and oppression against me, with unjust laws and unjust people trying me.  The situation is different to the situation I now face in this hearing.  All these operations took place a long time ago.  My recollection therefore suffers as a result.  These operations were carried out under tense conditions and were akin to warlike operations.  For this reason as well, my exact recollection is not always precise."

MR DEHAL: Mr McBride, thank you.  May I now take you to some copies that you wish to hand in which deal broadly with the various counts, the political background at the time, the raid by South African Forces on the ANC in exile and the reports in that regard.   Mr Chairperson, I have two sets of documents, one which has three pages, the other which has six pages.

CHAIRPERSON: We will call the one with three pages, M.  Are they three continuous pages, or three pages each dealing with a different article or whatever?

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, three individual pages stapled together in one bundle, and six in one bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: But is it one story in one bundle, or is  each page self-contained information?

MR DEHAL: Each page is separate from the other.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, M1 to M3.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: And the other one N1 through to N6.

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, whilst those are being handed around, could I just quickly confer with Mr McBride?  May I continue, Mr Chairperson?  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that, have you finished now?

MR DEHAL: Sorry, no.   Mr McBride, these copies, Exhibits M and N have been handed in.  Can you tell us briefly why you sought to have these included?  Sorry, we are having some problems in getting Mr McBride's microphone on.

CHAIRPERSON: Just try putting yours off first and then try putting it on while - let me get mine off as well.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, the main reason I wish to hand these two exhibits in is to show that different criteria are applied by the same people, in particular in this case, the media which was regarded as the mouthpiece of the government in those days, which was actually started up by stolen government funds when dealing with my case and when dealing with activities of the apartheid Forces in which people were killed.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  Mr McBride, you want to now refer I understand to the injured and deceased persons generally and I believe you want to make a statement in that regard.  May I help you, if you look at 6 or 7 and 8 of A1, therein lies the names.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: At this moment I particularly want to speak to the families of the people whose deaths I have caused, in particular Ms Buthelezi, the mother of Mlungize Buthelezi and the Buthelezi family, the family and relatives of Angelique Pattendon, the family and relatives of Julie van der Linde and the family and relatives of Marchelle Gerrard and the family and relatives of all people of who I had caused injury to.  I am truly sorry for causing the deaths of your loved ones, I had nothing personal against them.  It was in a quest for my own freedom and a quest to unshackle myself from the apartheid system that I brought about the deaths of your loved ones.  For this I am sorry.  Thank you.

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, that would appear to conclude Mr McBride's evidence.  I see it is about three minutes to four, there may be aspects that I have omitted, I have various annexures that were photocopied, could we perhaps adjourn at this stage and I could confer with him, than wasting any more time?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think it would be a convenient time to adjourn and Mr Richard would it be possible for you to get those missing volumes that you require.  Mr Dehal, would you still require them, but perhaps if Mr Richard could get what he requires from the trial record which was mentioned earlier for this evening?

MR DEHAL: I have no difficulties.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Richard, would you just link up with Mr Dehal?  Thank you.  Yes, we will now adjourn until half past nine tomorrow morning.

MR RICHARD: I may mention, it seems as if Mr Dehal went and did the homework I wanted to do.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, so we will adjourn until half past nine tomorrow morning, when we will continue with the evidence of Mr McBride, commencing with giving Mr Berger an opportunity to put questions.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS