Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-11

MR VISSER: So it is Mamome's gun that went off quickly, is that what you are saying?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Did you fire any shots?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I fired.

MR VISSER: Well, please tell me if I am wrong.  I am putting it to you that you never told this Committee that you fired shots at Oupa Makhubalo.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, that is incorrect.

MR VISSER: I am referring to the evidence, the (indistinct) evidence Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: That is what I am referring to.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I am listening but I am shocked.   I was stopped several times that I should not be in a hurry, I should take my time.

CHAIRPERSON: I have no note of him having said that he fired shots, but then I have not got a complete note of the evidence.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, my Attorney's notes as well as my own notes and recollection show that he never mentioned that he fired.  Everybody else fired, except him.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you could tell us where he said it?

ADV MEMANI: No, Mr Chairman, (indistinct) my note also doesn't say that he shot.

CHAIRPERSON: But you told us a moment ago that what Mr Visser put to him, was not correct.  That he did say he fired shots, now you say your note shows that he didn't.  You mustn't take objection when you don't know what the point is Mr Memani.

ADV MEMANI: It was an error My Lord.

MR VISSER: Yes.  You see Mr Motsamai, you will recall that when I commenced my cross-examination of you, I asked you whether you considered seriously the allegations which you were going to make when you filled out your application form.  Do you remember that, and you told us that you did.
	And now we hear from you in your evidence that everybody else shot at Mr Oupa Makhubalo, but you never shot at him, why is that?  Such an important issue, how could you have forgotten that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Maybe I forgot it because I was interrupted several times, that I was told that I am too fast, I should be a bit slower.  Maybe that is the reason that made me not to include that but towards the end, you will hear, you must have heard when I told you that we were all given bullets.  It must have been in my mind that I mentioned it.  I won't end up by saying I was given bullets, not having used my gun.

MR VISSER: Who interrupted you?  You just made an allegation that somebody interrupted you as a result of which - can you just tell us what you are referring to?  Who interrupted you?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think he said maybe.

MR VISSER: Oh, maybe?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  Any way you see this all fits together Mr Motsamai, doesn't it?  Gosi is murdered, Oupa Makhubalo is suspected of being the murderer and he was in fact charged later, wasn't he for the murder of Gosi?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He was charged with the murder and he was discharged.

MR VISSER: Yes, yes, I know, but the fact is he was charged.  You thought in your own mind that Oupa Makhubalo is the man who killed my informer, Gosi.  I am putting it to you.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is not how you put it My Lord.  It is the way I put it.  He was killed by a group of students.  We were listening with the earphones.  We were listening at two halls, Zinzele Hall and Paksnoba Hall, they had this listening equipment.

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, please, I am going to interrupt you because it is not an answer to my question, really.  I don't want to hear the whole history again, with all due respect.
	Can I just put it to you you are the only one that fired on Oupa Makhubalo on that day.  That will be the evidence.  You are the only one that shot at him and you missed him every time.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He will come and testify because when he was turning, he could see who was shooting.  I was not the only one shooting, all of us shot.

MR VISSER: Yes, all right.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: You musn't just commit me to what I did not do.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, it has taken longer than I thought I would.  I have two further incidents which I've got to cover.  White Mohapi and Jeje and then I will be through.

CHAIRPERSON: You can do those after the short adjournment.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS

MR BRITZ: Mr Chairman, there was a slight misunderstanding about our reporting back.  We couldn't get hold of him, the cellphone is off.  What we will endeavour to do is keep you secretary informed as things progress and hopefully we will be able to be here this afternoon.
	In the meantime, may I beg leave to hand up the affidavit that is in our possession.  The top one is the original and then I will hand up the others as copies.
	Mr Chairman, you will see this is an affidavit of Captain Koja.  Now, I don't think it is necessary for me to read the whole affidavit into the record.  I can shortly take you through the affidavit.  You will see in paragraph 2, he says (NO ENGLISH TRANSLATION - FREE TRANSLATION)
"I was for the period 1983 up to approximately 1993 the caretaker of the singles quarters of the Police at Mamelodi.  The single quarters was to house all black policemen stationed in the Pretoria surroundings".
	And then paragraph 3, he says -
"Nelson Ngo was known to me personally as he approximately from 1987 up to the date of his arrest in approximately 1989, worked under my direct supervision at the Mamelodi police singles quarters".
	Then he says that he will try and obtain as much documentation as possible, and that is what we are waiting for.  
	Paragraph 4 -
"Mr Ngo was never a member of the Security Branch in the Transvaal and while he worked under my supervision at the singles quarters, he was a member of Unit 19, the Reaction Unit, stationed Rosslyn, Pretoria.
		Mr Ngo together with Sergeant Ramala, both from Unit 19, was transferred to Mamelodi barracks under service arrangements by the mentioned Unit Commander, whose name I cannot remember, because Unit 19 had quite an amount of members who stayed at the Mamelodi singles quarters and Mr Ngo had to see to their needs.
	And then he says -
"Mr Ngo's duties  included the daily inspection of the singles quarters and the bedding, and he had daily to take post to the Mamelodi police station to be posted.  He had to report on duty to me on a daily basis during this time".

INTERPRETER: The speaker is going much too quickly.  The interpreters can't keep up.

MR STANDER: "I was an AO during this period".
	Mr Chairman, Captain Koja will be available to testify and hopefully we will have as much documentation as possible with him and we will get back to you as soon as possible when they arrive.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, so you an stand down till they have arrived.

MR STANDER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: (s.u.o.)

MR VISSER: (cont)
	Mr Chairman, if I may proceed in my attempt to complete the cross-examination.  I am going to refer you to Bundle A, page 23.

ADV DE JAGER: There is something I would like to clear up before you proceed with the next one.  Mr Motsamai, you said when you jumped out of the car, you didn't go the same direction that Mr Makhubalo ran because you realised he is going to jump over a fence.  Is that correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: So you didn't follow him actually?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I proceeded through a different street.

ADV DE JAGER: So, you weren't running after him, you didn't pursue him?  Is that correct?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, I have got a difficulty understanding if you are not pursuing him and you are running a different direction, how did you shoot at him then?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I shot him when he was at King Street.  That is the direction which he was running to.   Morakile came with a different direction.  When he jumped the fence, that is when I started shooting.