Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-17

MR HUGO: No no, Colonel Booi, was there not a higher rank than him before he got to the General, that he had to report to?  Or did he report straight to the General?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Straight to the General, yes.

MR HUGO: And was the General aware of the activities of this so-called underground security branch and what it entailed?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: He was aware.

MR HUGO: Was the General also to your knowledge aware of the fact that you the members of the underground security branch was working and co-operating closely with the South African Police at the time?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, because we were working in Transkei only.

MR HUGO: No no.  The question is, was the General the head of the security branch, was he aware of the fact that you as Transkeian policemen were co-operating, helping and assisting South African policemen to operate in Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I don't know whether he was aware or not.  But I was taken by Colonel Booi who was the head of it at that time.

MR HUGO: Well, was Colonel Booi aware of the fact that you are co-operating with the South African police whilst they were operating in Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: He was aware.

MR HUGO: And what were his instructions to you in respect of the co-operation and the assistance that were to be given to the South African Police?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: He gave me instructions to go and assist South African Police only.

MR HUGO: But assist in what way?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: In tracing the trained terrorists.

MR HUGO: And did you yourself do any research on the so-called terrorist in the sense that you, did you have a name and a list of suspects etc., during your investigations in the Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I had no list of the persons.

MR HUGO: Did you ever, before this particular incident, come to know the name of the deceased Mr Ndondo?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I knew about him on that particular day.

MR HUGO: For the first time?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: For the first time?

MR HUGO: So is it then fair to say that as far as you are concerned working on so-called terrorists that Mr Ndondo wasn't a high profile activist or a member of the ANC or the PAC and that you haven't heard of him before this particular incident occurred?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I had no knowledge about him.

MR HUGO: And you had no knowledge of the fact that he was a member of the Student Representative Council at the Umtata University at the time or just in 1984?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No I had no knowledge.

MR HUGO: And you similarly had no knowledge of him having been expelled for political activities in 1985 from the university?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No I don't know.  I mean I had no knowledge about that.

MR HUGO: Can you just, whilst we're busy with that, go back to the bundle of documents, it's Page 2.  It says there, summary of substantial facts and then Paragraph 5, this is now after the incident,
In a public speech subsequently, the then Transkei State President K T Matanzima gave political justification of the murder claiming that the deceased was killed because of his involvement in a bombing incident in Umtata previously.
You see that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes I see it.

MR HUGO: Now, can you recall this particular public speech that was given by the former President?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes I recall this, the speech.

MR HUGO: And you see that he refers to a bombing incident in Umtata previously, was that true, to the best of your knowledge?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: As I heard it from the radio.

MR HUGO: I beg your pardon, you only heard this speech on the radio?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: No but did you have personal knowledge in your work as a member of the underground security force that this particular, that the deceased Mr Ndondo was involved in this bombing incident?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I had no knowledge about bombing.

MR HUGO: So this, the knowledge of this bombing incident certainly did not or was not conveyed by your section to the then President?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

MR HUGO: Then I want you to just go to Page 17 of the same bundle.  Have you got it in front of you?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: Do you recognise this document?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: Now can you just identify it for us please?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Sorry.

MR HUGO: Can you just identify this document for us.  Just tell us what this is about?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It was the statement made by me on the 24th of 9, 1985.

MR HUGO: To whom did or in whose presence did you make this statement?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: In the presence of Braam Moss.

MR HUGO: But who was the author of this statement?  Who drew it up and who arranged for this statement to be typed?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I don't know but I could say it was the superiors, but I don't know exactly who organised it to be typed.

MR HUGO: You see Mr Dandala with all due respect, I think this document is of very great importance.  Try and recall the matters in a little bit, in a more detailed fashion.  When was this document drawn up?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It was after the incident.

MR HUGO: Well, let me try and help you.  On Page 18, right at the bottom, Page 18, it says there, Umtata and then 13/11/1985.  Does that sound right to you?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: Do you think that is more or less the date when this document was drawn up?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes, it could be.

MR HUGO: And it was signed by yourself I see at the bottom of the page, is that your signature?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes, it's my signature.

MR HUGO: So you were happy with the contents of this document?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: At that time I was happy because some other people, they were trying to assist me in making this statement.

MR HUGO: Yes, well that was what I wanted to know, Mr Dandala.  Who are these people that were trying to assist you to make this Affidavit?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I cannot recall because in the assistance that they were giving is that I mustn't disclose everything so as to destroy Shabalala because this is going to be heard at the Court.  Now they were telling me that if I can disclose everything maybe these people I was going with could come and also kill me because I'm destroying them.

MR HUGO: Yes, I understand that Mr Dandala.  We all know that we were then living in terrible times and dreadful things happened.  What I'm after is, you have to make a proper and a full disclosure to enable you to qualify for amnesty, you understand that, is that not so?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR HUGO: Now we have a situation on your own version where you say that people were trying to assist you.  Now we want to know who are these people that were trying to assist you at the time?  So that we can ask them questions as to why they did this.  Who were they?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: They were like Constable Booyse, they also tried to assist me.

MR HUGO: Yes, that's now one name.  Who else?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I cannot recall others because there were many there in the office.

MR HUGO: Yes?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: One ... [inaudible] sometimes come to me and say, hey this thing which happened, but I don't like it and I don't like it to say at Court that Shabalala shot so many rounds.  You must just say Shabalala, I mean after I have shot a shot Shabalala stopped firing, things like that.

MR HUGO: Yes, but who are the people that were advising you to do these things?  Not to reveal the whole truth.  Over and above Constable Booyse now, who else?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: If I can recall clearly, Sergeant Ncabani was there.

MR HUGO: Yes.  Is he also a member of the deep security unit?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No no.  He was a member and the head of this.