Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: No, no I was never involved in anything.  I was not fighting with anyone.  I am just a mother.  They said to me these boys, when this person went to Vlak to fetch them they said they were coming to fight against Mbokodo and they stayed there in my house and said they were waiting for a day to leave because in the evening they use to stay there in my house.  The time this person gave them beers, I think he wanted to kill them by that day because he knew that the other Comrades were in the camp.  That is why he came back and found them at home, he shot them and burnt them to ashes.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now you say that when they came the first time they were in a red combi.  Are you absolutely sure about that?  Was it a red combi and do you perhaps know who the owner of this combi was?

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: Yes, the youngest daughter said, she said they came there with a red combi.  I did not see the combi, I just saw it going away.  I saw these guys coming there inside.  There were eight.  Ezekiel was staying with me because he was schooling there in KwaNdebele he was staying with me.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Wynand Malan.

MR MALAN: Mrs Skhosana, I just want to pursue two matters related to other statements.  You will understand and you did tell us that the mothers of the other boys were suspicious of your role that you played.  You told us about your suspicions on some of the other people, the teacher and others.  Everybody is suspecting everybody because we do not know what the story is and, hopefully, we will get down to the facts and things will sort itself out, but just to be
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
19 J V SKHOSANA
fair to you.  In some of the statements of the other witnesses that will be led, will be giving evidence later today, references are also made to these suspicions that you have alluded to.  Against that background, one of the people say that you were at the time working for Mr Shabangu at his store.  Did you never work for Mr Shabangu?

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: I always worked in Ndebele and the evidence that I giving here now is that I never worked.  I last worked when I was in Mamelodi.  I never worked at that shop, I do not know this Mr Shabangu and at Vlaklaagte there was no shop that belonged to Shabangu.  We had Vusies shop, we had Skhosana's shop and we had another shop, I am just trying to get to the name, and there was another shop near AA, but we never had Shabangu's shop at all.  You can ask anybody.  You would not find any shop belonging to Shabangu.  We do not even know Shabangu.

MR MALAN: Mr J D Shabangu had a supermarket at Tweefontein.  You do not know that place?

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: I do not even know him.  I am at Vlaklaagte.

MR MALAN: They apparently, according to some of the evidence, the boys stayed at Mr Shabangu's shop at the supermarket at Tweefontein and later, the statement says, a woman who worked for him, a certain Johannah, offered them, after an attack at Shabangu's supermarket offered them accommodation at her place which was 20 kilometres away.  Just to put it to you, but you have no knowledge of that?

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: No.  The boys that were staying by me, I never heard that they were charging any stores.  I do not know anything about it and I do not know this Shabangu.  I know that they were at my house only.
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
20 J V SKHOSANA

MR MALAN: Mrs Skhosana, you also say that you are self-employed.  Can you tell us what your business is, what do you do?  Are you a general dealer, storekeeper?

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: I sew curtains and clothes and I sell beans by the bag.  I also sell other things such as beans and so forth and maize and also the Ndebele children buy maize and things like that from me.  I do not work.  I have never worked.  I last worked when I was in Mamelodi working in the kitchens.  I never worked in KwanDebele.

MR MALAN: And then, just again, and this is not an accusation, it is simply to be fair and open to you because you may not get an opportunity to come back.  In one of the other statements there is again reference to these suspicions and one of the witnesses that may be giving evidence, testimony refers to you and says that you were, sort of suspected of peddling drugs, selling dagga.  Were you ever involved and you do not have to answer it, but if you want to comment on this you are welcome to.  It is not an accusation, but if it is said later and we did not give you the opportunity now to talk about, we would be unfair towards you.

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: Those that say so, I am very happy because it shows that those children that were staying by me, I was giving them dagga to smoke, that is what they are trying to say by saying that, is it not.  So, today I want them to cleanse me and send police to my house to come and take out this dagga that they allege that I sell.  I want them to go now and go and call the police, send them to my house to go and take out this dagga that they allege I sell because these people that allege that I sell dagga, those are the people that are supposedly, that must have taken the dagga
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
21 J V SKHOSANA
to my house.  That is why they can say that because I have got nothing more to say to them.  I do not beg them for anything anymore.  They are the ones that are embarrassing me and saying bad things about me so I am saying now that they must come, they must take the police and send them to my house today and take out this dagga that they allege I have at my place.

MR MALAN: Mrs Skhosana, thank you very much.  I know it is difficult for you to respond to these, but again I want to say that we need to bear in mind that everyone is suspecting everyone and until we get to the bottom of the story, these suspicions will simply continue and we hope that bringing some of these accusations and suspicions into the open, will already start a process of getting to the bottom of the story, of understanding of each other and, hopefully also, to healing and reconciliation, but thank you from my part.

CHAIRPERSON: Tom Manthata.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mrs Skhosana, my questions.  Here you had one John of the ANC youth that you sent to Mamelodi after the murders.  What became of this John?

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: Who is John?

THOMAS MANTHATA: You have not given the second name.  Okay.

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: The John I know is my uncle.  The one that came and took the bones.  I do not know any other John.  We went in his van with the bones and went to Mamelodi.  I do not know any other John.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Okay.

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: My mother's last born.

THOMAS MANTHATA: It is written here, the same morning I sent one of the local ANC youths by the name of John to Mamelodi in order to report the incident to the deceased's parents.
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
22 J V SKHOSANA

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: Yes, that one is also John.  The Comrade from Ndebele who came with his mother.  I sent him to fetch my mum.  That is a Comrade.  The other John is my uncle.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Ever since these things have happened, Mrs Skhosana, what is your relations with the ANC youths in KwaNdebele now or even in Mamelodi?

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: Yes, we get along very well.  Actually, I am their Treasurer.  I take care of their funds.  We get along very well.

THOMAS MANTHATA: They have not been able to talk to the rest of the parents to address this whole suspicion that is cast on you?