Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

MR SNYMAN: It is not that it was insignificant to me.  Probably it would have come by means of an official telex message or a phone call to our office, but I can no longer precisely recall how and when I was informed, but I did bear knowledge that he had died.

GEORGE BIZOS: The Minister responsible for your department;  who was it at the time?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, if I recall correctly it would have been Mr Jimmy Kruger, but I am not sure.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you hear him say that Mr Biko died as a result of being on a hunger strike?

MR SNYMAN: It is possible that I might have bore knowledge of this.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, did you or did you not hear it?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I cannot recall.  I did not ever tell the Minister anything about a hunger strike.  It's probably something that happened via Col Goosen, my commanding officer.

GEORGE BIZOS: You knew it would be false.

MR SNYMAN: It's possibly false.

GEORGE BIZOS: You're not really putting in issue that it was in fact false.  Even after what you know today, are you, Mr Snyman?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, let's carry on.  Let's move on.  I don't think this kind of cross-examination is taking you much further.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	When you decided to apply for amnesty in relation to this matter;  who drew your application?

MR SNYMAN: If I recall correctly, this was done during the month of December.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who drew the application?

MR SNYMAN: Attorney Francois van der Merwe.

GEORGE BIZOS: On your instructions?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, Your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: And who drew what is said in paragraph 10?  Who drew that paragraph?  You needn't read it all at this stage.  I'm just asking you who drew this up?

MR SNYMAN: That would have been done in consultation with my attorney.

GEORGE BIZOS: It was done, was this on your instructions?  Now, please put that document away, Mr Snyman and please tell us in your own words, in your own words what was the political objective that you wanted to achieve by any act that you committed?  	Please tell us in your own words what was the political objective that you wanted to achieve?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, our actions ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: I asked you, you personally;  what objective did you want to achieve?  I am not interested in the draft that your attorney has dished out in numerous applications.  I am asking you for your
reasons, personally?
	What objective did you want to achieve by committing any wrongful act that lead to Mr Biko's death?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, the purpose had been that I as a member of the security branch served the Government of the day, namely the National Party.
	Since I believed that what we were doing at that time was right, it was the right thing to do.  We had anarchy in our country.  It was expected from us by the Government, by the National Party, by our head office, that we had to act in the circumstances.
	I felt that because of the sacrifices that we had to make, that I in fact could apply for amnesty.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, I did not ask you whether you have the right to apply for amnesty or not.  I asked you in your own words to please tell us what political objective did you wish to achieve by performing any unlawful act relating to the death of Mr Biko. Please try and answer that question.

MR SNYMAN: Since we were at the sharp end of the struggle against the SACP/ANC alliance and the Black Consciousness and Black Power Movements and since we had to put everything into the struggle to attempt to prevent the subversion of the then Government and since by means of the politicians and of our head office, we were encouraged to fight this fight.
	I feel that now at the end of this period and at the beginning of a new democracy, I have the right to apply for amnesty.

GEORGE BIZOS: I will not put the same question, but let's try and analyse what you have said yourself and not what is in the document.	Did you understand ... (intervention).

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I want to ask you, I am very tired.
(Commotion in hall).

CHAIRPERSON: Please!
(Commotion in hall).

CHAIRPERSON: Please,  want you to allow these proceedings without much further interference or disturbance from you.  Please allow this witness, this applicant, to give his evidence in a quiet atmosphere.
	Proceed.

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I am not a healthy person and I cannot - do not feel that I can continue.  I am using medication.  My age must be taken into account.  I do not feel that I can continue any longer.

GEORGE BIZOS: I would, with respect, I am not likely to finish, even if we do go on for the next fifteen minutes.  I would suggest, with respect, that we take the adjournment and ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens, it's quite clear that your client is not well enough to proceed.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And am inclined to agree with his request that we adjourn this stage..

MR BOOYENS: Certainly, M'Lord.  Yes, I in fact have got a medical certificate relating to what ailments he suffers from.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: So I could perhaps, if necessary hand that up to you ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: If it's necessary you may do so.
MR BOOYENS HANDS IN MEDICAL CERTIFICATE ON MR SNYMAN

CHAIRPERSON: I will adjourn these proceedings now.  Mr Bizos, may we resume at 09:30 tomorrow morning?

GEORGE BIZOS: Of course, Mr Chairman, as you please.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is in order, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Erasmus?

MR ERASMUS: That would be in order, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: We adjourn these proceedings now and resume at 09:30 tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION ON 11 SEPTEMBER 1997 - DAY 2

HAROLD SNYMAN: (Still under oath).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens, is your client well enough?	  Is your client well enough, Mr Booyens?

MR BOOYENS: Yes, M'Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed, thank you,  Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: (cont)
	Thank you, Mr Chairman.  When we adjourned yesterday, we asked you to please give us in your own words what the political objective was that you wanted achieved by doing what you say you did together with your colleagues to the late Mr Biko?
	You have had overnight to think about it.  Could you please in your own words tell us precisely what the political objective was?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, the goals of the security branch as one of the structures of the National Party Government, had been to maintain internal safety and security by means of combating terrorism and protecting the State order against expansion of Communism which found expression in the activities of the liberation organisations;  the ANC/SACP alliance, the PAC, the Black Consciousness Movement and the South African Students' Organisation as well their military wings;  Umkhonto weSizwe, APLA and BCN and the struggle which they waged in order, by
violent means, to subvert the status quo.  
	In this process we found it necessary to detain people, to arrest people and detain them, to interrogate them in order to restrain the activities of the organisations mentioned and to prevent the overthrow of the then State order by means of violence.

GEORGE BIZOS: Finished?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: The question was what political objective did you and your colleagues in the security branch hope to achieve by what you did and your colleagues did to Mr Biko on the morning of the 6th of September 1977. Would you mind answering that question please?

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question is directed to what happened to Mr Biko and not all the various organisations.	What did you hope to achieve in treating the late Mr Biko in the way he was treated?  I think - is that what you're really trying to achieve?

GEORGE BIZOS: Precisely, Mr Chairman, thank you.