Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, excuse me, Mr Shane will be next.  I've already asked him to come in and be ready.  He tells me he will be ready.  He will be next Mr Chairman.
	Mr Chairman I do apologise, I've asked him now again to be ready.  I phoned him again and tell him please to be ready at two o'clock, so we can start.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there nothing else we can do in the meantime?

ADV STEENKAMP: No Mr Chairman.  Mr Sibeko's client is only for tomorrow.  The rest of the clients of Ms Nhlayisi are in custody.  She still has to consult with them.  But Mr Shane's clients are here and he's supposed to be ready now sir.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) do tomorrow.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman I would guess about four, four to five.  Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I see there's left 11 applicants.  Will we finish the balance today, the others?

ADV STEENKAMP: The difficulty is some of the attorneys need still to consult with their clients Mr Chairman.  Some of them only started this morning to consult with them, but be that as it may.

CHAIRPERSON: I hope they're not going to charge for consulting, if they're charging for the day's appearance.  Yes Mr Shane?

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman I'd like to proceed with the application of Mr Antony Maci.  I do believe he's here.  I have consulted, I saw him, and I asked him to be here at two o'clock.  I told him we're going to start at two o'clock, I don't know where he is now.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you?

MR SHANE: ...(indistinct) that we can start with.

CHAIRPERSON: Well where were you at two o'clock, nevermind your client?

MR SHANE: ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, call your client.  What happens to your other client that you wanted to call?

MR SHANE: I don't know where he is Mr Chairman.  He's been here the whole morning, I told him to be here at two o'clock.  I don't know where he is.

CHAIRPERSON: What happens to his application now?  It's been called.  You called it.

MR SHANE: Well if he comes I'll - if he can stand down and if we can proceed with Mr Booi who's now before you Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: I hope this standing down procedure is not taken for granted.  I may just be in a bad mood and not grant it.  What's the name of this client?

MR SHANE: ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane will you put your speaker on please?  Your speaker, yes.  Mr Shane what you said now was not picked up by the tape recorder, because your speaker wasn't on.

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman this is the application of Mr Daniel Mahese Booi, reference number AM 7561/97 on page 81.  Mr Chairman if I can just know the number of the Sotho.

INTERPRETER: Number four.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booi I understand you want to testify in Sotho?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: That's correct, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any objection to the taking of the oath?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: (sworn, states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.

UNKNOWN: Mr Booi don't worry about that mike, it will stay on now.  Don't worry about pressing again, it will just stay on permanently.  Okay.

MR SHANE: Mr Booi your identity number is written on your application 730405 5419 08 8.  Is that the right number?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: That's correct.

MR SHANE: Mr Booi you applied for amnesty for murder of Mr Dubula.  Is that correct?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: That's correct, sir.

MR SHANE: You also mention in your application form about another unknown person who died.  Is that right?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: That's correct, sir.

MR SHANE: Now you also had nothing to do with that person's death and you therefore withdraw your application in respect of that unknown person.

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: That's correct, sir.

MR SHANE: You became a member of the ANC and also of the Self-Defence Unit for Katlehong or Natalspruit.

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: That's correct, sir.

MR SHANE: What was your function in the Self-Defence Unit?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: I was an operator.

MR SHANE: Now, this person, Mr Dubula, who you shot.  First of all just describe what did you do relating to his death?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: Dubula was a police informer.

MR SHANE: You can speak Sotho, it will be translated.

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: Dubula was a police informer and also he was a member of IFP.

MR SHANE: How did you know this?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: Most of the times whenever he disappeared from the township, they internal stability unit police would arrive and disarm the community.

MR SHANE: Right, now is it correct that, or explain to the learned Committee how your weapons were confiscated, and what part Dubula played in those weapons being confiscated.

CHAIRPERSON: What was wrong with being in the company of the internal stability unit?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: It was a big mistake if you were seen in the company of the stability unit because they used to harass the community and kill people.  Therefore, everybody who was closely associated with the police was not trusted by the community at that time.

MR SHANE: Right, and insofar as the deceased's membership of he IFP is concerned, what did you know about that?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: Please repeat your question.

MR SHANE: What did you know about the deceased Dubula's membership of the IFP?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: Most of the time Dubula was closely associated with the hostel dwellers, which was a stronghold of the IFP then.

MR SHANE: Right.  Now, you say he was also a police informer, he used to tell the police something which caused you to lose something.  Correct?  What was that?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: Whenever Dubula disappeared from the township the police would come and attack all the places where we kept our armoury.

MR SHANE: That is where you kept your weapons?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: That's correct, sir.

MR SHANE: Then while we're on that point, although you didn't mention it in your application, you did poses weapons without a licence.  Correct?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: They were not mine, they belonged to the community.

MR SHANE: Yes, but they were in your possession.  There were weapons in your possession, during that time.

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: They were not kept by me, but by the commander.

MR SHANE: Yes, but you sometimes used weapons.  Correct?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: That's correct, sir.

MR SHANE: And when you used them they were in your possession for the time you used them.  Correct?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: That's correct.

MR SHANE: You never have had a licence to possess them.  Correct?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: That's correct, sir.

MR SHANE: So you will also seek amnesty for possession for the times when you possessed those weapons.

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: That's correct, sir.

MR SHANE: Now Mr Dabula, you shot him?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: Yes, I did shoot him.

MR SHANE: How many times did you shoot him?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: I shot him once.

MR SHANE: This was in 1993?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: It was in 1993, I cannot really recall the month and the date.

MR SHANE: Can you tell was it towards the end, in the beginning or in the middle, of 93?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: It was in the middle of 1993.

MR SHANE: Were you alone?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: I was not alone.

MR SHANE: Who were you with?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: I was with Jabu Nkosi.

MR SHANE: Was Jabu Nkosi also a member of the Self-Defence Unit?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: That's correct, sir.

MR SHANE: Can you describe the circumstances where you found the deceased, and what you did before you killed him?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: The, some comrades came with Dabula and said that we have found him.  There was no firearm at that time, and me and Jabu rushed to fetch a firearm.  We came back with the firearm and some of the comrades were still holding him, Dabula.

MR SHANE: Can you give the names of these comrades, or any of them?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI: The ones I remember are Jabu, Frank and Mandla.  The rest I do not remember because there were many of us.

MR SHANE: These ones that you've now names, were also SDU members?