Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-16

CHAIRPERSON: Yes because they were involved in ritual killings or because there was political reason to do so, which one of the two or perhaps there was a third one that we don't know, you can tell us?

MR MASHAMBA: I was supporting because those people who were killing people ritually I checked and found that there are people who are holding high position in the government who are high officials in the government and even those which who are witching they were working together with those who were  high officials in the government.  Those people who were in power they get the power from the witch.

CHAIRPERSON: To rule you, do I understand you correctly?  In order to stay in government they got the power to rule from the witches?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Ndou?

MR NDOU: Thank you Mr Chairperson.   Now you were explaining to the Committee as to what transpired on that fateful day on the 11th February 1990 and you had just explained that the group had decided to proceed to the kraal so that the people who had been identifying as witches and ritual murderers.  Now you've already indicated that you proceeded to the kraal of Joseph Tishumbupfe.  What transpired when you arrived at Tishumbupfe's kraal?

MR MASHAMBA: On our arrival we were singing those freedom songs.  When he saw we were entering and just because we were many he was coming out from the cave.  When he stood in a plain place he said if you come near me I will kill you then he showed a warning then we go back.

MR NDOU: Now when you say we approached, approximately how many people are you talking about here?

MR MASHAMBA: We were about 150.

MR NDOU: Yes and after Thishumbupfe had fired some shots in the air?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you belong to a political organisation?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes I'm just a supporter.

CHAIRPERSON: Of?

MR MASHAMBA: Of ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: You were a supporter at that time?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes I was a supporter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes but could I put it to you that the ANC never instructed or asked people to kill the witches, isn't that so?

MR MASHAMBA: It's true.

ADV DE JAGER: Now why did you do so if the ANC didn't ask you to act in such a way, how do you think would you by killing the witches support the ANC?

MR MASHAMBA: We were looking at the government which was ruling us in Venda at the time of Ravello.

ADV DE JAGER: Was Ravello acting with the government of South Africa or was he on the side of the ANC?

MR MASHAMBA: Ravello's government was ...(indistinct) opposite to the ANC.

ADV DE JAGER: So in fighting the Ravello government you were fighting the enemy of the ANC?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes it's true.

MR NDOU: May I proceed?  Thank you Honourable Chairperson.
	Now you were there at Joseph Thisumbupfe's kraal, he comes out, he fires several shots in the air, what happens to you people there?

MR MASHAMBA: It's then that we go to the house of France Khomogwe.  There when we arrived I asked the house which he used to sleep because I was not knowing it then I was shown it by the one who pointed him who mentioned the name that this person is a witch.  In the house there was a light then I opened the door then I get in together with ...(indistinct).  I was holding a big stick, I hold him and then beat him.  I beat him four or five then he get out then he fall to the people.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was that?

MR MASHAMBA: France Khomogwe.

MR NDOU: Is that the deceased in this matter?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes it's the deceased.

MR NDOU: Yes and after you pulled him out and hit him several times with a stick and pulled him outside what transpired?

MR MASHAMBA: When he get out people started to beat him with sticks and stones until he fell down and died.

MR NDOU: Yes and what you did, is all that you did according to the way you explained that you only hit with a stick and dragged the deceased out of his hut?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes.

MR NDOU: Yes and what transpired then?

MR MASHAMBA: From there we proceeded to Mafune, we didn't find Mafune we found him already flat.  I think that I took out the matches and then I lit the house he used to store medicines.

MR NDOU: Yes?

MR MASHAMBA: Then under that guy who was called Frederick he also later and Thomas Ndaw also lied.

MR NDOU: Yes you can proceed, just explain?

MR MASHAMBA: Then the whole homestead came to be on fire then we get out.

MR NDOU: Yes?

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Ndou, the name of the owner of hut that's been set on fire?

MR NDOU: It's Mafune.

ADV DE JAGER: This is not France, it's not his family either, it's a third?

MR NDOU: Yes a third ...(indistinct) that they proceeded to.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that in relation to the arson?

MR NDOU: Arson charge yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So he didn't burn anything at France's house he just murdered him?

MR NDOU: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you spell that name please?

MR NDOU: Mafune's spelt M-A-F-U-N-E.

CHAIRPERSON: Mafune, what's the other name?

MR NDOU: Mafune is the surname but he says he doesn't know the first name.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was that house that was burnt?

MR NDOU: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Where the house full of medicines were also burnt?  Was he there, Mafune?

MR MASHAMBA: No he was not there.  We didn't find there on our arrival.

MR NDOU: And according to your evidence three huts were burnt is that right?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes that is correct.

MR NDOU: And you only participated in the burning of one?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes I'm the person who burnt the first one which was containing the medicines.

MR NDOU: I see.  Is there anything that you wish to tell the Committee?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes, I want the Committee to forgive me for all these deeds I have done.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I'm afraid we can't forgive you but you can certainly ask the victims or the deceased, family of the deceased and the owner of the house that was burnt.  You can ask their forgiveness.  I'm not too sure if they're present but they are the people to whom the request for forgiveness should be made.

MR NDOU: Have you ever seen any member of the family of these two families?

MR MASHAMBA: Yes.

MR NDOU: Who did you see?

MR MASHAMBA: I am seeing Jerry Khomogwe who is the son of the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Anybody else?

MR MASHAMBA: I'm seeing the only person here.

CHAIRPERSON: Nobody from Mafune's house or Mr Mafune himself?

MR MASHAMBA: Even Mr Mafune and any person from that family I'm unable to identify that person.

CHAIRPERSON: In any event if they are here you can still to them even in their absence I suppose but if you want to say something to the deceased's son please go ahead.

MR MASHAMBA: Myself here, I'm asking him to forgive me.  I don't have much to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Why you asking for forgiveness if you don't have much to say?

MR MASHAMBA: It's because I have committed a crime.

MR NDOU: That is all, Honourable Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg is this one of the cases in which you appear for the families?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes Mr Chairperson, I have only
instructions from Mr Jerry Khomogwe which is the son of the deceased, that is the only instructions and by and large I'd like to confine my cross-examination to that specific incident.

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, if I may just at this stage?  Regarding the arson incident and the victims in that matter, the names of those victims are not mentioned in the application, we accordingly didn't notify, were unaware of it.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, may I proceed?  	Mr Mashamba, there's just thing I want you to explain to me.  If you now succeeded in killing all the witches in the whole of Venda, how would that act cause the people in government in power to become powerless?

MR MASHAMBA: They were going to become powerless because most of their power they get them from the witches.