Amnesty Hearings — White River — 2000-05-04

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, Mr Lubbe.  Mr Seemise, you're excused.  Thank you.  Mr Lubbe?
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR LUBBE: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Chairperson, I respectfully request the Committee to favourably consider granting amnesty for the applicant ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes before we get there, is that your case?

MR LUBBE: Yes, that's my case.  Sorry, I thought that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll probably get there in a minute, but we must just follow the process.  Mr van der Heyde, I assume that you're not going to present any evidence.

MR VAN DER HEYDE: No, I have no witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: And Ms Mohammed, in light of what you had said, what is your position, are you presenting any evidence?

MS MOHAMMED: I'm not presenting any evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  And Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes Mr Lubbe, you can carry on, I've interrupted you.

MR LUBBE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	With respect, Mr Chairman, I submit that regarding the three provisions of the Act, Section 20(1)(a), (b) and (c), that the application of the applicant should succeed. 
	First of all I would respectfully submit that the application itself complies with the requirements of the Act.  Secondly, that the acts which my client applied for, relate to acts associated with political objectives and that they were committed in the course of the conflict of the ANC and the IFP, and furthermore that my client has made a full disclosure of all the relevant facts as far as these matters are concerned.
	Mr Chairperson, what is not in dispute is the fact that my client was a member of the IFP.  The fact that the IFP had a Youth Brigade stationed in Ermelo, of which he was a member.  The fact that from the viewpoint of the applicant, subjectively speaking, the ANC was regarded as the political enemy in that region and that all the activities of the Black Cats were aimed or directed at combatting this political enemy, as described by my client in his evidence.
	It's furthermore I think common cause, that at all relevant times during the commission of the various acts, that my client acted on the instructions of a certain Mr Hlongwane and/or Mr Noah Mxobogazi, who at that point in time was the Chairperson of the IFP for the district of Ermelo.
	If I can turn to the specific acts for which my client requests amnesty, I respectfully submit count number 1 of the application deals with the conspiracy to assassinate of to kill Mr Shongwe.  That Mr Shongwe was viewed by the IFP, which is uncontested, as a person being responsible for the death of a certain Zabatha, who was a leader figure in the IFP, and that this planning for the assassination of Mr Shongwe was purely politically motivated.
	With regard to the second count, which I would respectfully submit should be read together with counts 3, 4, 5 6 and 7.  It is common cause that all these persons were in one room where my client threw the F1 handgrenade and that action of his, as has been cleared up by yourself in examination, directly resulted from an order that he received from Mr Hlongwane, to throw the handgrenade.
	With regard to count number 8, that would be the possession of the handgrenade, I also respectfully submit, Mr Chairperson, that the mere possession of the handgrenade was also in the furtherance of the political struggle in which my client was involved. 
	There's no application for charges number 9 or 10, because 10 was withdrawn and my client indicated to yourselves this morning that as far as charge 9 is concerned, he wrongfully pleaded guilty to that charge.
	I furthermore submit that in respect of charges 11, 12, 13 and 14, which can be viewed as one act, this was also committed under the instructions of his Commander, Mr Hlongwane, in the furtherance of the political struggle.  
	There's no application for charge number 15.
	Then Mr Chairman, turning to the offences referred to in paragraph 6.1 of Exhibit A, that is the attack on certain UDF members at iZikumplazi, I also submit that this specific incident was executed under the direct command of Mr Hlongwane.
	6.2 is the killing of Mrs Zini Shongwe.  May I just - I know that your Committee is not bound by a previous decision, but you will find on page 273, paragraph 7.10 deals with the granting of amnesty which was granted in respect of Mr Hlongwane.  Referring to the attack in paragraph 6.1 of Exhibit A.  7.11 deals with the murder of Zini Shongwe, for which Mr Hlongwane was also granted amnesty.  I would respectfully submit, Mr Chairperson, that the mere fact that my client associated himself with the act or the deed of the killing of Mrs Shongwe or might have foreseen the consequences, also makes him culpable of this, and I also respectfully request that amnesty be granted in his case for the death of Mrs Zini Shongwe.
	The gist of the application for both paragraphs 6.3 and 6.4, I submit is on the same score.  And you will note, Mr Chairman, that Mr Hlongwane also obtained or was granted amnesty in respect of 6.3, that is the death of two unknown school children from Tembisa.  You will find that on page 273, paragraph 7.12.
	As regards the attack on the three ANC scholars, it is not quite clear - well, it's not evident from the record why he wasn't granted amnesty, that is Mr Hlongwane, but my client seeks amnesty for these instances.
	Regarding the incident of Ms Tilli Nkosi, I think the record speaks for itself, as well as that of Mr Crackit.  6.5, 6.6 and 6.7.  And then of course the actions or deeds that were committed in Davula.
	I respectfully submit, Mr Chairperson, that in all of these instances, especially also in Davula, my client acted under the direct instructions of either Mkhonza, who was the Mayor of Davula, and/or Mr Hlongwane, who took command of the Black Cats operating in that area.  	I therefore request the Amnesty Committee to favourably view the application and grant amnesty in respect of these matters.  As it pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just ask you, Mr Lubbe, in regard to the shebeen patrons, that's counts 2 to 7 of the original charges, your client seems to hold the view that that didn't really assist their political struggle, throwing the handgrenade at these unknown people.

MR LUBBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What are your submission?  Over and above the fact that it appears that Hlongwane gave an order, is that sufficient to comply with the requirements of Section 20?

MR LUBBE: Mr Chairperson with respect, I think the view one has to take here is looking back today, it would seem that it is a futile exercise, this whole exercise was futile by, with respect, all political parties engaging maybe in these kinds of actions.  But the test is not whether today looking back, one would say it didn't help the cause of the IFP or not, the question is whether at the point in time where he got the instruction, he was under the belief that it would have assisted or helped the cause of the IFP.
	And I respectfully submit that this is in fact the case.  The fact that a man goes into a house trying to find which he believes is the enemy, or enemy number one, and in that whole process commits a series of offences under the instructions of a Commander, one surely must take a realistic approach to say, at that point in time he must have believed it would further the cause of the organisation and not judging from today's perspective, obviously not.

ADV SANDI: Having listened to his evidence I did gain the impression that he was saying as part of his evidence that at the time he was complying with the order from Hlongwane, he thought that to do so would somehow assist his organisation to pursue the political struggle as they saw it at the time.  He didn't tell us about what was going on in his mind at the time he was complying with the order from Hlongwane.  He didn't take it that far.