Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

WITNESS: As I had to re-arrange all the documents that I had with me because the situation was not quite convenient for me, because the people who were torturing me still continue to use the ways that they used before, to torture us.  I am going to try and say this very briefly.  From 1976 when I used to be detained a lot I would be singled out from a group of people.  That time I was still very young.  Because I looked very young at that time I would lie to them and tell them that I am very young and lie about my age.  That is how I got out of the situations.  
That used to happen during 1978 and 1979.  Again this happened during the funeral of the leader of the PAC, Mr Sobukwe.  At that time there were a lot of criticisms against Nkosi Buthelezi.  In 1979 there was a lot of unrest at that time because at that time there were not just fightings.  People were planning.  Those who were politically aware of things simply disappeared one by one and that was the time I was starting to be aware of politics.  In 1979 when I was writing my examinations, I was first fetched by Mkoduka.  He was with Mtselu.  I was taken to Sanlam.  It was called Sanlam at that time.  I was interrogated for a long time.  They were trying to do it softly though and I was told to leave, to just disappear in front of everybody.  Then I was made to choose.  This person who made me to choose was the person whom we are not allowed to mention.  He said to me, "If you want to take my advice you should disappear, and the ball is in my court."  During that year, like I said I was trying to write my examination I failed everything.  It was the first time for me to fail anything.
During 1980 there was also unrest by the students.  Students were boycotting at that time.  I was one of the leaders at that time and that is when I became well-known.  I was also quite well-known by the person we are not supposed to mention here.  
Something that was not liked about us was that we were organising the people.  We organised the churches.  We organised reverends.  This Centenary was full of people that we organised.  After I have been arrested, just for a short while at Walmer, I was accused of breaking in.  In the documents I saw that it was written "theft", but some of the things I cannot mention here now.  What was written in that document was that it was "theft".  That was the reason why I was arrested.  After I have been arrested three times I was released.  I spent three weeks there which was at that time called Section 22, and of course it was now added by a week.  After that I went to the Initiation School.  While I was still there in Humansdorp I saw a police van approaching.  At that time when a police van approaches you people would think that their livestock was going to be stolen or maybe even rape.  Now there was this policeman who was known for mischief who came to pick me up.  That policeman spoke to one of the men here in Port Elizabeth and this man said that I must be left alone.  Then I came back to Port Elizabeth.  The point that I am trying to go to now is the way that they used to torture at time.  I came back here into this Centenary Hall.  I was still wearing the khaki attire that people from the Initiation School usually wear.  I was standing over there speaking.
The following day they came to fetch me again.  It was Roelofs Ntselu Tsungata and this other man whom I am not supposed to mention.  They interrogated me as usual.  They were just asking me a lot of nonsense.  You must remember that if you are new from the Initiation School you do not really have a lot of clothes.  It was around 19h00 at that time and people who were coming from this meeting were waiting outside for taxis and busses to go back to work.  I was put right in the middle.  There was another man who had my cap, the cap that I was supposed to have on.  Roelofs was driving and so we left.  We went to Veeplaas Township in the Crown Shop.  We approached the people.  They were pretending as if we are having a good time in this car, just talking to each other like we are all friends.  They would pretend that they are lighting my cigarette for me.  They were doing that the whole time.  I was laughing at that time, but people started to say that they do not trust these Comrades because they are our friends and all of a sudden they are with these boere.  People started not to trust us anymore.  I was so fortunate because I was not named as one of the informers at that time, but there are people who actually lost their lives.  One of the things I like about the Commission is that the Commission lets people to come and tell their stories, people who did not have that opportunity before.  
What I think what is most interesting now about the text that were used at that time to torture, it is amazing and unbelievable the way they used the law.  They had all the powers.  They would come to us and ask us,  "Hey, when are you starting your meeting?  We want to go and watch a soccer match."  They would park their cars here and interrogate people out of the blue.  Most of us were lucky at that time because most of the things that these people did were documented.  They were on record.  At that time people like Molly Blackburn was well-known.  We were not really taking these things into our heads because we were used to it.  Being tortured by these boere was very common at that time.  There was nothing we could do because of the powers that they had.
During the time of the State Emergency Act in 1985...  I am going to try and be brief.  I do not want to waste your time.  I am going to try and start with 1985.  I am only going to mention one incident.  I was arrested on the 2 August, arrested by the police.  One of them was Loots who is in this case and another man called Van Zyl and Jam and Tungata's brother.  His name is Mzikayise.  I was taken to Berry's Corner.  They were still treating me well at that time.  They were explaining to me how lucky I was at that time because I escaped through the window.  It was during the day.  There were these policemen with guns.  
When I tried to look back, just to look at them, when they were about to shoot me Van Zyl stopped them.  He said he regretted all this even when he was talking to his friends he regretted for not shooting me.  They used to shoot people if you just turned you back.  I saw Brimmer just passing quickly.  Obviously, he was from one of my brothers who was also tortured in a room that was full of blood.  You could see that people were just relieving themselves in this room.  Jam just made me peep into this room.  There was another white man who was well-dressed.  He had very large boots on.  You could see that he was very happy about this torture.  When he came to me he tried to advise me about what I should say in court.  He took me into a place that was used as a police station at that time but it was now used for us to be tortured and interrogated.  It was also used for screening.  Jam was hitting me with his fists on my face and on my head even though he was told not to beat us up.  They asked, "What are you doing to Tungata?  Mr Jack, what are you doing to Tungata?"  I said, "Why are you beating me up without the boere watching?  Do you not want to wait for the boere to come and watch this?"  That was the time they were taking fingerprints.  If I made one mistake he would beat me up and say, "What are you doing to Tungata?"  He did this for a long time.  From there I was taken away after a long torture and I was thrown into Algoa.  
I slept there for a whole night.  What I am trying to say to you is, I have been lucky most of the time. When they came to arrest me they would not get me.  Some of the inmates would say it would be easy to get Jack, but some of the Comrades were just arrested on the first day that they were wanted by the police, but I was lucky.  I used to want to find out what happened to people like Reverend Tshonga and Reverend Gcina.  There was another young man which was obvious that he has been here for a long time.  He used to say to me, "Brother, it is very difficult in here.  Things are bad in here."  In the morning a certain man arrived.  Like I said I am a lucky man because I know all these security policemen.  I know all their names.  You can notice that I have been in and out of jail since 1979 with no break which means it is very easy for me to know these people.  When I say "a certain man" you must know that I am trying to obey the court's interdict.
They transferred me to Louis Le Grange and I was now taken by W/O Coetzee who was alone in that office.  He put handcuffs on my wrists and said "We have you."  He took a towel and wrapped it neatly around my wrists.  He was doing this softly.  He said, "I do not want you to have any scars.  He screwed these handcuffs.  These are not the usual handcuffs.  Those ones you had to screw on.  
Then he took a knobkierie and said, "He must do what he is doing now."  I was tied in this position then I was made to sit like this exactly in a certain corner.  While I was tied like this another man arrived.  This man helped Coetzee.  I was put on two tables and I was hung there.  I was then told that this type of torture is called "helicopter" and Comrades enjoyed it.  I was told that people like Snqokwana, Ngoyi, Dennis Neer, have been through this.  I was told that this kind of torture was "Comrades favourite".  I was tortured in that way for a long time.  What hurts the most is not the physical pain, it is psychological damage that is being done during this whole period.  Coetzee took certain documents.  He read through them and in the meanwhile he was asking questions to me.  I was crying because I was feeling pain.  Coetzee simply ignored all this.  This did not affect him at all.  He said, "You have come to the room where you have to tell the truth."  He said, "Duma, you are going to tell the truth, this is now the moment of truth."  He said, "You have come to the room where you have to tell the truth."  Meanwhile a certain Sergeant Dyani arrived.  He was with Strydom.  This Strydom is not the same person as Eric Strydom who used to be the Head of the Murder and Robbery Squad.  This Strydom was a hefty man.  It looks like he was a body- builder.  Sometimes it used to be very difficult for him to have a jacket on.  
He would just have a short sleeve shirt on so that we could see his muscles and we could be afraid of him.  If he grabbed your neck you are not be able to breathe at all.  He was very powerful.  It looks like this body-building that he was doing he was using to torture us.
Bezuidenhout was also part of these boere.  This Bezuidenhout is not the same Bezuidenhout known as Qwathi.  This one was working for the National Squad.  He came to help as well.
Mr