Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-03-24

MR BRINK: And so the ANC obviously posed no real threat to IFP supporters in the Mapumulu area.

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: It was eventually going to pose a problem if we allowed it to grow in the area.

MR BRINK: Yes but you told the Committee that prior to this event there had been no - to use your words, no turmoil in the area?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BRINK: So there hadn't been any problems, serious problems between the IFP and the ANC prior to these murders?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BRINK: Now let's go back to the celebration, the celebratory gathering which you attended. Was liquor served?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: Some of us did drink liquor.

MR BRINK: Do you remember what sort of alcohol? Was it beer, spirits, wine?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: There were spirits, beer and some cold drinks.

MR BRINK: Did you drink spirits?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: No.

MR BRINK: Did you drink beer?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: No.

MR BRINK: What did you drink?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: I drank cold drinks.

MR BRINK: Can you describe to me because I am afraid I am ignorant of it what is the nature of this Sinsinijonjo about which you spoke?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: As I said, if you are visitors at a certain place, a girl that has a boyfriend in your area regard you as in-laws.  She then has to provide you with some drinks so that you can report back home that you did not starve where you had visited because this girl has taken care of you.

MR BRINK: Yes all I really want to know is, is this Sinsinijonjo is that a drink itself? And if so what sort of drink? That is all I want to know.

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: No, "njonjo" is only the provision of drinks.

MR BRINK: Now what sort of drink is that?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: She provides any type of drink that we ask.

MR BRINK: Did you have any alcoholic drinks?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: No.

MR BRINK: Did your uncle?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BRINK: Was he under the influence of liquor?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: He was not drunk but he had been drinking.

MR BRINK: Well I am not suggesting he was drunk. I am asking whether he was under the influence of liquor?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: He had been drinking but he was not under the influence of liquor to that extent it would let him fall down.

MR BRINK: No was Mshanga Ngobese under the influence of liquor? That is your co-applicant?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: No.

MR BRINK: Now you tell the Committee walking down the street and you apparently came across two or three people who were on a minor road. Do you remember that?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: Yes.  They were two.

MR BRINK: Were they strangers to you?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: I did not know them.

MR BRINK: So you couldn't say whether they were ANC or IFP?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: I did not know whether they were IFP or ANC supporters.

MR BRINK: I am sorry I missed that. Did you say you did or didn't know?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: I did not.

MR BRINK: Sorry I still didn't hear that interpreter.

CHAIRPERSON: The interpreter. Please interpret, did he say he did or did not?

INTERPRETER: He said he did not.

CHAIRPERSON: That is much better thank you.

MR BRINK: So they were slaughtered?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: They used a word which you don't even know what it meant.

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: No.  It is because of the words that they used that made us believe what type of people they are.

MR BRINK: This word "Nkoba" was also used according. Please leave your microphone until you are ready to answer because you are cutting me off you see. This word "Nkoba" was according to your evidence also used at this happy gathering which you had attended earlier and that didn't appear to cause any trouble?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: Although I did not know what the meaning of the word is, I knew that this is a derogatory word used to demean the IFP supporters.  This is not the only word they used.  There are other names they used, and I remember mentioning some of the words they used in my amnesty application form.

MR BRINK: And it didn't cause any trouble?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: Yes.  It was used there.

MR BRINK: Now finally I just want to get on to this Ms Khumalo. You say she was opposed to this dog tax?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: That is true.

MR BRINK: Is it possible that members of the IFP or some members of the IFP might also have been opposed to a dog tax?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: No.

MR BRINK: But opposition to the dog tax isn't necessarily a political thing surely? It is a democratic right.

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: I cannot say.  I can just guess.

MR BRINK: And because of that you went to her house, kicked open her door, shot her and she was stabbed and then you went home?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: Even if that is the case, what she highlighted is that the reason why we had to pay this dog tax was because it was levied by the KwaZulu Government led by the IFP.  That is when we realised that she did not want IFP.

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR BRINK: .

ADV MALAN: Mr Mthembu in your evidence you said that when you went to Mrs Khumalo's house you first looked for her son to see whether he was around so that you would not be disturbed. Had you found him would you have killed him?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: No.

ADV MALAN: What would you have done?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: It would mean we would have to arrange another day, when he is not present.

ADV MALAN: Thank you Chairman I have no question.

CHAIRPERSON: In your application form there appears the following sentence. After you have talked about Mrs Khumalo she was a xhosa speaking and that Xhosas and the Zulus were always in conflict. You recall saying that?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: "And this caused rivalry between the ANC and the IFP." Did you say that?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: Yes.  I was explaining that it was initially believed that the IFP was for the IFP was for ZULUs, whereas the ANC was for Xhosas.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said: "And this caused rivalry between the ANC and the IFP." Did you say that?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Why you said that there was no turmoil in Mapumulu?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Despite that in your application form you conclude by saying
"I then decided to remove all ANC supporters from society even though nobody gave me orders to do so."
Did you say that?

NIMROD MBEWU MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: No further questions thank you. Mr de Klerk?

ME DE KLERK: I have no further questions from my side. That is the evidence for this applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you very much. You may move from there.

WITNESS IS: .

ME DE KLERK: The next applicant is Mr Ngobese.

MSHANGA NGOBESE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr de Klerk.

ME DE KLERK: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Ngobese is it correct that you were born on the 23rd of March 1971 in the Qamba Mapumulu area?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: Yes.

ME DE KLERK: Did you ever go to school?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: No.

ME DE KLERK: Is it correct that you are a supporter and card-carrying member of the IFP?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: Yes.

ME DE KLERK: You have listened to the first applicant, Mr Mthembu he explained what happened. Do you agree with what he has said?

MSHANGA NGOBESE: Yes.

ME DE KLERK: Without explaining to us what happened at the traditional party or feast but just by starting when you met the first group of people that was attacked?

CHAIRPERSON: After the feast was over and when you were on your way back home.

ME DE KLERK: What happened?