Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MR WILLS: Yes?   I think in his statement he indicates that, I can't recall exactly where Mr Chairman, but he was in charge and then he would have Mr Radebe under him and then he would have under Mr Radebe would be the two askaris, namely in this instance Dube and Mbane?  Would you dispute that?  It is page 102 I think, Bundle 2.

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot say who was the Commander of Mbane, what I understood is that Mr Baker was in command of the C1 members.

MR WILLS: Yes, he might have been the person who was even more senior, I think that is the position.

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, he was ...

MR WILLS: Yes, and he only came to visit from time to time, he wasn't there all the time.  My reading of his evidence is that he just came to check up on them, doing inspections, but he wasn't involved in the operation in total and his Attorney will correct me if I am wrong.

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLS: So as far as the Vlakplaas cell on the ground was concerned, it was Coetzer who was in charge, he was the one who alleges in his affidavit to take the decision to withdraw the Vlakplaas contingent and report to de Kock about that?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot comment to that.

MR WILLS: The point that I am wanting to make is that Mbane has got exactly the same interpretation of the plan as his superior has got, i.e. the intention was to arrest Khubeka?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Those were not my instructions to arrest Khubeka.

MR WILLS: Are you telling the truth?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Just before I forget, you are not applying for amnesty for murder in this case?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: I would imagine that you'd have knowledge of the activities of what the Vlakplaas people were doing in the Intelligence gathering operation particularly in relation to the arrest of certain persons.

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Not necessarily Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Well, you knew that they arrested Khubeka and you were involved in that arrest?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Were you involved in the arrest of, were you involved in not necessarily the arrest, but did you come into contact with any other persons that they arrested during that time?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Not that I can recall Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Because it is interesting to note that in Radebe's affidavit, that - and I am reading from paragraph 46 to 49 that the implication is clear that prior to the arrest of Khubeka, three other persons suspected freedom fighters, had been arrested and handed over to Henti Botha?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I don't know about that Chairperson.

MR WILLS: As far as you are concerned, were any other persons arrested around the time of this incident and brought out to the Winkelspruit shooting range?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Not that I know of Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Wills, if I could just ask a question, how did you operate there, did you do an operation at a time as a unit?  In other words we have now been dealing with this operation concerning Ms Khubeka,  if you were involved in that operation, would that be the only operation that you were handling at that time, or would you be involved in a dozen operations or half a dozen operations at the same time?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: It is possible Chairperson, that two or three operations would overlap, but I cannot recall that we were busy with any other operations where at this stage, where arrests had taken place.

MR LAX: If I may Chair, just a follow up, Mr van der Westhuizen, this was a time of a great deal of violence?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR LAX: And a great deal of unrest?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Correct.

MR LAX: Surely you would have been dealing with numerous enquiries and investigations into that?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR LAX: At that time, I mean we have heard for example Mr du Preez, although he cannot remember exactly what he did, but he went off to do other duties on that night, for example.

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I remember him saying that.

MR LAX: So what I am trying to say is in my experience, the average policeman who was of a detective nature, and although you were Security Branch, you were still a Detective, had numerous dockets they were handling at any one time, some up to 100 at a time?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct Chairperson.

MR LAX: So what I am trying to understand is,  is it possible that other people may have been handed over to you, and you just don't remember it because you were dealing with so many things at the time, or ...

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot specifically recall that people were handed over to me or anybody else Chairperson, at that specific stage.

MR LAX: Let's just leave it at that, I mean all I am trying to separate out is the difference that it didn't happen or it might have happened, but you just cannot remember it?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: At that stage other people were not handed over to us.  We were busy with other cases, but no people except for Ms Khubeka was handed over that I can recall at that stage.

MR LAX: Can you remember any other arrests of any other people in any other dockets at that time?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No Chairperson.

MR LAX: But you must have arrested people even though you cannot remember it?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is possible, yes.

MR WILLS: Thank you Chairperson.   You obviously in this plan, did some surveillance around the home of Ms Khubeka, somebody did?  Somebody must have?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: It is possible, yes.

MR WILLS: Surely it is not possible, surely it is probable?  You've got this person who lives in a house where you know she lives, she is co-ordinating foreign and internally trained freedom fighters, your enemy, and you are not going to put surveillance around the house?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I don't think that there would have been surveillance because C1 members had already made contact with her.

MR WILLS: Did you see any photographs of Ms Khubeka?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: How did you know it was her in the car?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I drew that inference or I was informed later that it was her.  I did not know her personally Chairperson.

MR WILLS: You didn't know that at the time that you arrested her?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I was later informed that that was Ms Khubeka.

MR WILLS: How much later?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I think it was at the scene, I cannot specifically recall.

MR WILLS: But wasn't that a common Security Branch practice to get photographs of people who were suspected in being involved in the liberation struggle?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So one would assume that there was a file that existed in relation to Nthombi Khubeka in the Security Branch?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And did you ever peruse that file?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I don't believe I did Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Who would look at that file?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The person, it was open to members of the Security Branch who had an interest in her, which I did have, but I never looked at her file, or I cannot recall that I ever specifically looked at her file.

MR WILLS: Yes, and one can assume that there would be a photograph of her in the file, not so?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: There are files, I cannot recall if there was a photo of her in the file.

MR WILLS: No, you have said you didn't look at the file, so you cannot tell me that there was or wasn't a photograph in the file.

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct yes.

MR WILLS: But what I am saying is that in all probability there would have been a photograph in the file?

MR VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: It is possible that there was one.