Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-08-24

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson.  Can I just qualify just to give you a broader comprehension.
	I would have had eight to ten groups in the field of which the one was at Barkly.  Then I had agents in Swaziland and border patrols.
	So, at the end of the month, I would have the full picture or most of the information.  My authority was delegated by the Divisional Commander.  If that Divisional Commander kept information from me, then I would not be aware of it.
	My members as far as I know, fully briefed me.  I did ask questions and that is why I mentioned here that I have a vague recollection that the person who died, escaped because his shoes came off.  And it is then that he went through the window.
	That is just to give you an indication.

MR DUKADA: Let me put it very simple for you Colonel.  Were you ever involved in any discussions for the arrest or killing of Ndondo?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson.

MR DUKADA: And the knowledge about this incident came only as a result of reports furnished to you after the killing?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson.

MR DUKADA: And you never instructed Morse or Tshabalala or anybody to go and arrest Ndondo?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson.

MR DUKADA: Now let's come back to Exhibit H, the last Exhibit Mr Chairperson.  I am particularly concerned about the last document in the bundle, paragraph 3.
	Can we just have a look at paragraph 3 Colonel, beginning with the words Gen Kawe.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR DUKADA: There it is reported that - it is a telegram - which is reporting that Gen Kawe wanted some assistance in the defence of the case.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, that is how this paragraph reads.

MR DUKADA: Can you just clarify the meaning of that?  Can you just clarify the meaning of that paragraph?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, it would seem and that is my inference that I draw, that Gen Kawe realised that on a legal basis, there was problems here and he had to ask Colonel Griebenouw for assistance.

MR DUKADA: Yes, I know that you were not the person who wrote the letter, but if there were legal problems, there were many local legal personnel in the Department of Justice to assist, why would he have to go to an external source for assistance?  Are you able to help me on that?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I would not be able to say.  I am not trying to be funny, but maybe Gen Kawe could tell us, because something must have bothered him insistently.

MR DUKADA: Yes.  Colonel, could we just go back a little back to the modus operandi, the general method of procedure by Vlakplaas?
	Was it also one of your objectives to arrest an ANC member and bring them for prosecution in a court of law?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, and indeed that did happen.

MR DUKADA: Yes.  And you used to do that on a number of occasions?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, that happened at several incidents.  I cannot give any number, but there were many.

MR DUKADA: And in this instance, when Ndondo was fetched, according to Tshabalala at Exhibit E, the fourth page, Exhibit E, I don't know whether you have Exhibit E, paragraph 10(a)?
	Can you see paragraph 10(a), where in supporting his application, Tshabalala says Batandwa Ndondo ...

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Can you just repeat the reference?

MR DUKADA: Paragraph 10(a).

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Okay, I have that.

MR DUKADA: The heading is State Political Objective Sought to be Achieved.  It says Batandwa Ndondo was suspected of being an ANC terrorist.  He was to be abducted and brought to the Republic of South Africa for interrogation and possible recruitment as an Askari.  Can you see that?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson.

MR DUKADA: The evidence we heard from Mr Tshabalala is that they had handcuffs on the day in question, but he was, that is the deceased, was never handcuffed.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR DUKADA: If there was an intention to arrest Ndondo and abduct him, would you agree with me that he would have been handcuffed as you regarded him as a very dangerous person?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson.

MR DUKADA: And in the eyes of Shosha, Tshabalala and Dandala not to arrest Ndondo would have been a very difficult, sorry very dangerous thing to do in those circumstances?  Sorry, let me rephrase the question, not to handcuff him, such a dangerous person would be a terrible risk?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Do you agree?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, it would be a risk.

MR DUKADA: I am not trying to persuade you to indulge in an opinion, but if they wanted to kill him, the easiest way was to let him run and shoot him?  In other words, not to handcuff him, but to let him run and shoot him?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I wouldn't be able to say that.  Could I just qualify here and say that the two persons who could give us the best information here, would be Gen Kawe and Warrant Officer Dan Naude, because it would have been simple for any of the two to contact the Security Branch at Qala and tell them please fetch Mr Ndondo.
	We would have to go and look what these two gentlemen had in mind by using Vlakplaas.  I would believe the Vlakplaas members went with a bona fide idea to arrest the man and that would include Dandala.
	But those two gentlemen could tell us, call the Security Branch, go fetch him, you know where he lives.

MR DUKADA: Yes.  Yes Colonel, in fact you would be requested by the Transkeian Police in this instance, to come and help them in arresting a particular ANC activist or any person belonging to the ANC or PAC who was within the borders of the Transkei?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, I would believe that the local Security Branch, along with the Uniform Branch, could go to his house and arrest him.
	This doesn't mean that the objective that the Chief of the Security Police in Transkei and the Chief at East London had there, that it was conveyed to the foot soldiers.

MR DUKADA: You see, I don't know whether you follow me Colonel.  I appreciate your assistance so far.  What I am asking you is why would instead of simply going straight to Qala by a policeman in Qala district and arrest an ANC activist who was in Qala, why would there be people from, all the way from Pretoria, Vlakplaas, holding meetings, sleeping at Barkly East, waking up in the morning and going to Qala, all of them?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Chairperson, can I just sketch a broad picture here?  The presence of the Askaris at Barkly East, would not be for the arrest purposes of Qala.  They served the whole Eastern Cape at that side, or the border area.
	In this two to three weeks, this would be one of the tasks that they would do for the Security Police in the border area.
	It would not specifically be only for this person.

MR DUKADA: No.  That again goes to my point Colonel.  I am glad that you are getting the point now.  There is no need to risk an Askari's identity to members of the public, the gentleman, Mr Ndondo who was an ANC activists, was at Qala, you had policemen in Qala to go there simply, and arrest him.
	In other words you avoid detection of Askaris and the risk as well of any other person belonging to the Police Force, that is my point?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, and I agree with you.  That is why I would go back and say that the gentlemen, Warrant Officer Naude and the Chief of the Security Police, would give us those answers.

MR DUKADA: Mr Chairman, I don't intend to be long with the witness, I am just trying to find out if I have anything else that I would like to - thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DUKADA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, I have no questions.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wessels, do you have any questions?