Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

JOE MAMASELA: We went back to Glen Connor, yes.

MR LAMEY: Were there other Askaris there?

JOE MAMASELA: No, it was myself, Koole and Piet Mogoai.

MR LAMEY: Which bus did you, which mini-bus did you have to take?

JOE MAMASELA: We were using this - for the operation itself we were using a Husky mini-bus, blue in colour with filtered windows but like I said, when we landed there we were using small sedan cars.
	The whites said: "Go back to the base, go and change", we used a sedan car and they came later on to fetch us with the Husky bus.

MR LAMEY: With what vehicle did you drive from Glen Connor to Port Elizabeth?

JOE MAMASELA: It was one the sedan vehicles, the small sedan vehicles that was issued to us on our arrival there.

MR LAMEY: So you drove with a sedan vehicle to Port Elizabeth?

JOE MAMASELA: With a sedan, yes.

ADV DE JAGER: I don't know whether you're on the same page, when you came from Glen Connor on the 8th to the airport, isn't that what you're talking about Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: Yes, the ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible] came back from Glen Connor on the 8th for the operation, what car did you travel in then?

JOE MAMASELA: No, from Glen Connor to the operation?

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.

JOE MAMASELA: The white commanders fetched us with a Husky minibus with tinted windows.

MR LAMEY: Who are you referring to, who fetched you with this minibus with the tinted windows?

JOE MAMASELA: That was Venter and Beeslaar.

MR LAMEY: So they came to Glen Connor to fetch you with that minibus.

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Was not police office from Port Elizabeth with one of them?

JOE MAMASELA: No, I didn't see anyone at that stage, no.

MR LAMEY: Now on that same day before you were called or instructed at the Port ELizabeth security branch to participate in this mission, this operation, what were you doing before that?

JOE MAMASELA: Before participating in the operation?

MR LAMEY: No, before you were instructed at the Port Elizabeth security branch, what were your daily tasks on that day, what were you doing?

JOE MAMASELA: No, on the day, for about two or three days prior to that we were helping them to interrogate a detainee by the name of Toto Sithole.

MR LAMEY: No, on that same day, what general tasks did you do before you received the instructions about this mission?

JOE MAMASELA: We were still busy with Toto Sithole when the head of the security branch came to us, congratulated us for at least managing to - get Mr Sithole to co-operate with them.
	It is then that he came out with this information that at last they managed to made a major breakthrough because they intercepted the conversation telephonically and blah, blah, and that these people were going to be at the airport the same day so we were told the same day, on the 8th of May.

MR LAMEY: Were you at any time during, since your arrival in Port Elizabeth, involved in the daily normal patrols of which Askaris were used for to identify MK insurgents?

JOE MAMASELA: No, the three of us we were never involved in that because already we knew our special operation because the seniors made sure the three of us remained behind by saying: "We are going to help the Port Elizabeth security police to interrogate somebody".
	So that excuse was always used.  The others knew that we were working at the police station to help to interrogate some other detainees whilst they were going on with their patrols.

MR LAMEY: So, do I take it correctly that you and Piet Mogoai and Koole were involved in interrogation?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Well, I want to put it to you that that is denied by both Mr Mogoai and Mr Koole.  They say they were involved in the normal daily patrols in Port Elizabeth.

JOE MAMASELA: I'm not surprised if they deny that, they've denied almost everything of vital importance in this, I'm not surprised.  And then I even dealt with this matter yesterday by challenging all of you to get the record of Port Elizabeth and to see whether a detainee by the name of Toto Sithole was detained their on that particular month or not and then we can clarify this matter once and for all.

MR LAMEY: So his name was Toto and his surname was Sithole.

JOE MAMASELA: Sithole, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey, I'm not sure why we went back to asking him: "What were you doing at the time when you were told about this mission on the 8th, at that particular time, what were you doing, what was your routine.
	I mean yesterday there was such a huge argument, in fact perhaps not argument but I remember at some stage the witness repeated things so many times, he even said: "Well Sithole is still alive, we can go and ask him".  And then we went back to this same thing again.

MR LAMEY: As it pleases you Mr Chairman, I won't - this name of Toto was actually just now mentioned by Mr Mamasela.   I wasn't actually focusing on that, I was focusing on their daily tasks before they were called for this specific operation.
	Now this minibus, the Husky, to whom did that belong or who was using that before Venter and Beeslaar came with that to Glen Connor to pick you up?

JOE MAMASELA: No, the other units were using that bus.

MR LAMEY: Was it a Vlakplaas vehicle?

JOE MAMASELA: It was a Vlakplaas vehicle yes.

MR LAMEY: Was it perhaps the vehicle that Peggy Gadebe used there?

JOE MAMASELA: It might probably be the one.

MR LAMEY: Because that is what Mr Koole and Mr Mogoai stated, that they were instructed to use Peggy Gadebe's minibus who had dark windows.

JOE MAMASELA: No.  That vehicle was issued out to Warrant Officer Koole but when we were there Peggy Gadebe, because he was transporting a quantity, quite a number of Askaris, then the vehicle was given to him and then we were issued with a sedan because we were only three for this special help with the Port Elizabeth Police.
	I don't know whether Venter or Beeslaar arranged with Peggy to take his kombi to come and fetch us with that kombi because they came with the kombi.

MR LAMEY: Mr Mamasela, were the Askaris as a group and individuals while with - during their involvement at Vlakplaas, were they under surveillance and under continuous suspicion, were they trusted?

JOE MAMASELA: It depends on what you call trusted because Askaris like I said, they were never considered as humans, we were never considered as humans.  And we were only trusted as far as killing of the black people by us is concerned, further than that we were never trusted.

MR LAMEY: Now this oppression of the Askaris, did that lead to some form of brotherhood among the Askaris?

JOE MAMASELA: I don't know what you mean by "brotherhood among Askaris".  Each and every Askari that was at Vlakplaas had to survive by all means, whether his survival centred around the brotherhood of other Askaris or in ...[indistinct] himself with other black policemen like Koole or in ...[indistinct] himself like in my case with the Generals, it was purely for survival, everybody had to survive.
	So it was not a uniform overall survival tactic, everybody, every individual had his own survival instinct that he used to survive.

MR LAMEY: But I mean you were there Mr Mamasela, you surely could have - you've witnessed what Askaris did. If they were oppressed by their white superiors, I would take it that they were brothers in this oppression?

JOE MAMASELA: Not really man.  Let me tell you something, these people that you are representing, most of them, they used a divide and rule tactic.  They sent an Askari to check on another Askari, they even sent Askaris to kill other Askaris, so what are you talking about?  I was there, like you say.

MR LAMEY: You were not known to the Port Elizabeth security branch, is that correct?

JOE MAMASELA: No, I was not known and I did not know them too.

MR LAMEY: They did not, because you were not known to them and you and Piet Mogoai and Koole, I take it that they couldn't have blindly trusted you.