Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-11

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Okay.
"There came a time when we were all concerned about the inequalities in the country and the impoverished state that we lived in, in Wentworth.  The poor education and the tyranny at the hands of the legal gangsters, the police and Labour Party members, in whom the people had no faith.
		During or about 1985, I was employed with a place of safety in Wentworth, as a child care officer.  Here I dealt with orphans, children with conditions of severe neglect and abandoned children.  I also had the sad experience of observing the abuse of children by the staff members, that is other child care officers.
		When I raised this issue at staff meetings, I was told to simply follow orders and to listen and obey the authorities and not raise such issues.  When this continued I refused to accept it and I was told that since I refused I could leave this, and this I did.  This created feelings of awareness and sensitivity in me towards the suffering of children in Wentworth and the abuse of authority.
		I was not recruited at the time into MK, or into the Wentworth Unit.  I used to often visit the Allan Taylor residence, listen to Radio Freedom and read the voice of the ANC in exile, Setchaba.  I listened to discussions, particularly at the Allan Taylor residence by the students, all of which were in the main political discussions.
		During 1984 and 1985, I was also part of a group which included comrade Robert McBride and Marson Sharpley and others as well.  We would together hold regular political meetings at Allan Pearce's home.  This group later developed into what became known as the Fairvale Unit.  These developments took place as a result of our continued political education, aided by our listening to Radio Freedom, reading the Setchabas and attending meetings at the Allan Taylor residence.
		The ANC literature, amongst other things, called on the patriots of the country to form units and attack targets, in particular government buildings, policemen and informers and other collaborators.  We formed this unit and it is this unit that carried out the Fairvale Secondary School arson attack.
		During this period also, one of the members of the group, Marson Sharpley, who was known to favour non-violence, at that stage was arrested by the Security Police and beaten up severely and held in detention without trial for several weeks.
		After his release we visited him at his home and there observed that he was so badly beaten up that his body which was light-skinned, was of a different colour as a result of the beatings on his person.  We also noticed that Marcel's personality had markedly changed, in that he was now in favour of violence and behaved in a paranoid manner when he observed a police vehicle or one that resembled it.
		If he saw such a vehicle, and even if we were then in a middle of a discussion, he would immediately leave the discussion without notice to us and run for his life as though mad and fearful of this vehicle.
		These impressions formed a distinct impression on me and encouraged me in the belief that a peaceful resolution for the change in this country was not possible.
		On a wall in Antonio de Preez's home was a picture taken off from the newspapers, of an unknown black man being assaulted by an armed policeman.  It was a big picture, which had a great effect on my mind."

MR DEHAL: Now Mr Lecordier, you then in your statement, deal with the various incidents.  You begin with the Fairvale Secondary School arson attack.  You've mentioned earlier that the Fairvale Secondary School arson attack was one that was carried out before you became a proper MK member, that means before you were recruited by McBride into MK.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right, yes.

MR DEHAL: But that at the time Fairvale - sorry, at the time of the arson attack, there was a unit in existence in Wentworth, to which you belonged, correct?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: And that prior to this arson attack you had already been attending political meetings at the Allan Taylor residence.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's correct.

MR DEHAL: Listening to Radio Freedom, the voice of the ANC in exile and reading Setchabas.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's correct.

MR DEHAL: So you were politicised at the time?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I was.

MR DEHAL: Will you then read what you have from (i) to (vi), under paragraph 2, dealing with Fairvale.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Fairvale Secondary School Arson Attack.
"This incident occurred on the third of September 1985.  There were no injuries to any persons in this operation.  The persons involved in this operation, within the unit, loosely set up Wentworth at time were Naziem Kassiem, Allan Pearce, Robert McBride and Marson Sharpley.
		At the time of this operation we were not formally recruited into the ANC/MK unit, but we understood the policy and the guidelines of the ANC, had been listening to Radio Freedom, reading Setchaba, the voice of the ANC, and actively engaged ourselves in repeated daily discussions about the need to change the situation.  We understood that this could not be achieved by peaceful means.  
		This was the first operation that I was involved in, and indeed the first that this combat unit carried out.  The object of this operation was to highlight the inferior and dilapidated condition of the school.  A complaint that had been tirelessly take up till then.  We hoped that this long-standing issue would now be addressed.
		My own activity in this operation was that I, together with Allan Pearce and Marson Sharpley, stood guard at the school whilst comrade Robert and Naziem Kassiem went to the laboratory area of the school, with a view to breaking the windows and pouring petrol into the school.  It was agreed that Naziem Kassiem would light a match and throw it into the school, as he was the fittest at the time.  The school was set alight, however the damage  was at a very superficial level."

MR DEHAL: Now Naziem Kassiem was chosen you say, because he was the fittest, obviously because he could then retreat successfully.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: You then deal with the supply of weapons to yourself in Botswana.  The reason you deal with this count is that in bundle A1, at page 7, item 5, you are cited as an applicant under this heading as an incident, one of which Mr McBride is an applicant and seeks amnesty for.  Do you recall?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I do recall.

MR DEHAL: This however, is not an incident that you seek amnesty for, correct?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's correct.

MR DEHAL: Okay.  Will you read paragraph 1 and 2 in that regard.
MR LECORDIER
"Inasmuch as I did not specifically apply for amnesty in regard to this count, I notice at the bundle A1, on page 7, as per item 5, records that I am an applicant in this regard.
		I have never been to Botswana, I have never been supplied with weapons either in Botswana or in any other country.  I have never accompanied comrade McBride to Botswana."

MR DEHAL: But any weapons supplied to you would have been within the ambit of your MK unit, by Robert McBride or somebody, on his instructions, correct?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: You then deal with an incident, an operation that you sought amnesty for and that's the handgrenade attack on the house of Peter Klein.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

MR DEHAL: You remember that?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: You recall that I took you through bundle A1, on page 9, item 15.  You will see that this incident has a date as the 5th May 1986.  You say you don't agree with that, it's actually the 1st May 1996, correct?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's correct.

MR DEHAL: You've conferred with McBride and others to confirm the correctness of the date 1st May as correct.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

MR DEHAL: And  you recall that in the date sequence this grenade attack on Klein was prior to the Edendale operation, correct?