Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-23

ADV SANDI: I know that what I'm going to say to you is a mere supposition.  This is not something that happened.  Let us suppose that when you came to the hospital, someone else, a member of the Black Cats was there and not Obed Nhlabathi.  What would have happened?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: If it was the person that I had been given an instruction about that he should be eliminated even if it wasn't Obed, I would have eliminated him.

ADV SANDI: Who is that - who do you have in mind when you say that?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: We were given instruction about Bongani Malinga, Mandla Ngoso and Obed Nhlabathi.

MR MAPOMA: Now, at the hospital, where exactly was Obed at the hospital?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: He was at the ward.

MR MAPOMA: Was he asleep or awake at the time you shot at him?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: He was asleep.

MR MAPOMA: Did you have any personal vendetta against Obed as a person?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: According to me I had no personal vendetta as such except for the political struggle issues.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no more questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Khaba, just very briefly.  The shooting incident at the hospital did it happen quickly or did it take some time, did you have time to examine Obed while you were there, did you have time to make enquiries about his medical condition or how long did it take?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR PRINSLOO: Well there seems to have been some suggestion that he should have enquired as to the extent of his injuries.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you think an assassin is going to enquire about the health of a victim?

MR PRINSLOO: I certainly don't think so and I think the evidence is that it happened quickly because it took place in town.
	Mr Chairman, there's one issue just for clarity that I don't know if I should put it to him.  During the course of his evidence he said that at the trial he was surrounded by police and judges and state officials and that he was represented by the State Attorney.  Now for the record if you want me to put it to him for clarity, in fact had ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I couldn't care less who represented him Mr Prinsloo.

MR PRINSLOO: I just want to put it on record that he had pro deo representation so everybody in his mind was the state who had surrounded him, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Khaba you mentioned on one or two occasions that "we eliminated Obed at the hospital" when you were questioned about the hospital.  Who do you include in the "we eliminated him at the hospital"?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: It's Livingstone Lukhele.

ADV BOSMAN: Why do you say Livingstone, why do you include Livingstone?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: It's because when this happened I was with him when Obed got shot.

ADV BOSMAN: I have no further questions Chairperson.

MR BLACK: I have no re-examination, thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: We're not too sure if Mr Gushu's applied for amnesty in respect of Obed.  One of your other clients now has mentioned him.  During the weekend I think you must assess your positions.  Unless there is an application that I'm not aware of in respect of Obed and I just feel that there may be reason to find that there's a bit of a conflict in your position.  I'm not going to make a ruling on it, I don't intend to make it, I'm just drawing your attention to it.
	Mr Khaba, how do you feel about what you did?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: I will briefly explain, Chairman ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Whoever's got that telephone on please put it off.

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: I do feel an enormous amount of regret about what I did as now when I realise a problem I feel it's best for the parties involved to discuss that problem.  If only this happened nothing of this could have happened.  I know I wouldn't have done this, I do trust and hope that the relatives here understand me well that I had no any other option but to do as I already did, which I regret now.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that you feel that the interested parties should sit down and discuss the issue.  Do you mean personally or through organisations?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: Mr Chair, I mean as now currently what's happening between Inkatha and ANC, they do get down and solve their problems and iron out their differences.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that is another level, I'm not referring to that.  I'm not making political suggestions.  I'm talking about your willingness to sit down person to person and to come to terms with life and the victims of your actions in order to live how we should live in this new South Africa from now on.  What do you feel about that?

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: I would request the Chairman to afford me the opportunity to sit down with the victims and apologise in person so we can start afresh on a new page.

CHAIRPERSON: Well it's not for us or any of the panel members to facilitate that.  I'm just raising that so that if it is at all possible then your representatives must facilitate that.  Hopefully in your case your representatives can also reconcile.

BONGANI WILBERFORCE KHABA: I'll be very grateful about that, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  You are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: I plan to adjourn at 11 a.m. this morning.  A lot of the officials have to get to the Johannesburg Airport at different times and we are in a position where many of us are going to travel on Monday morning, we'll only be able to get here at about half past eleven, twelve o'clock on Monday morning, therefore I'm going to adjourn for us to start at one o'clock on Monday.  Are there any objections?
	In order to give us an opportunity or to gauge what time limits we have, aside from the applicants, Mr Black, are there any witnesses you intend to call?

MR BLACK: No, I have no witnesses.

MR HATTINGH: None Mr Chairman.

MR KEMP: At this present time none.

MS VAN DER WALT: I am planning to call Mr Masebe as a witness and if - as you know I did not receive instructions from the beginning but when Andries Gumede testified he was not cross-examined but I am planning to ask you that he may be recalled so that I can cross-examine him on the instruction of Mr Masebe.  I am mentioning it now, I know I'll first have to make an application.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not want to make a judgement now but at the moment I would like you to consider the value of presenting his evidence unless Mr Masebe opposes the applications.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes that is my instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Then I understand it yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: I've got no other witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: So we're now talking about only one person?

MS VAN DER WALT: It would only be one yes and it would also depend if Mr Gumede will be called back and what comes out of the cross-examination then one can consider Mr Masebe's evidence but at this stage it would only be one person, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Apparently no witnesses, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I'm almost too scared to speak.  No I think that we're looking at approximately six witnesses will come into play.  We were referring to six separate incidents and I have instructions on behalf of victims' families for each and every incident and I may also add that although some of the witnesses I intend calling may not very well show any light on the matter or the incident itself.

CHAIRPERSON: They want to say something.

MR HATTINGH: They want to say something and it's not going to take long but I think it's important that they do testify.

CHAIRPERSON: I appreciate that.

ADV BOSMAN: It does sound better if you say one witness per incident.

MR HATTINGH: I'm not committing myself but at this stage it would appear to be more or less the position.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma are there any witness you intend to call?

MR MAPOMA: No, no witnesses Mr Chairperson.