Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-08

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tloubatla, your next witness?

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I am going to call upon Mr Atasios Motlana Mphoreng.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: (sworn states)

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mphoreng, you made a statement wherein you are applying for amnesty for the killing of four youths in Showela on the 1st of August 1986, is that so?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: That is correct.

MR TLOUBATLA: In the first paragraph of your statement you say that
"The political conflict between AZAPO and the UDF reached an unprecedent level in 1986.  In Johannesburg in particular it got very ugly when some of our members were brutally killed and set alight by student members alliant to the UDF"
and you mention Khomezulu, Martin Mohau and Mr Buks Leo(?).  Can you briefly tell us how the situation was then, that is during this period of around the 1st of August 1986?  That is the relationship between you and the UDF affiliated organisations.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: In 1986, especially here in Johannesburg, it was a general thing that the UDF and AZAPO were in a state of war.  What clearly showed this was that in that year AZAPO lost many prominent members and among members we lost in AZAPO I can mention comrade Sipho Khomezulu who stayed in Zola.
	Comrade Khomezulu was very prominent in the organisation and it had not been long since his return from Robben Island.  Comrade Khomezulu was killed by members of the UDF Alliance, SOSCO because he was a member of AZAPO.

CHAIRPERSON: What does this SOSCO stand for in full?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Soweto Student Congress.

MR TLOUBATLA: Were you at the funeral of Mr Sipho Khomezulu?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I did not attend the funeral because, but I was at the night vigil.

MR TLOUBATLA: The night vigil, did it go uninterrupted?  Were there any incidents at the night vigil of Sipho Khomezulu?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: There were no problems if I remember very well.

MR TLOUBATLA: You also mention Mr Martin Mohau, do you know how he was killed?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Martin Mohau was a comrade in AZAPO and he had not been back from Robben Island for a long time, when they came back from the cemetery at Avelon, comrade Mohau was killed by members of SOSCO.

MR TLOUBATLA: How did you establish that the people who killed Martin Mohau were members of SOSCO?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I have explained earlier that it was general knowledge in 1986 among the community in Johannesburg that there was a conflict between UDF and AZAPO.  Comrade Martin if I remember well, had an AZAPO T-shirt and that's how they identified him.

MR TLOUBATLA: You mention in your second paragraph that you were permanently misplaced, can you give us some more information on that?  Were you personally misplaced, how did you live, where did you stay and then any other members of the organisation that you know that were misplaced and where did you stay?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mphoreng, are you fully conversant with Sotho?  Is that your mother tongue or is there any other African language that you more conversant with?  The interpreters want to know whether you are fully conversant with Sotho.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I'm comfortable in Sotho and Tswana.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your mother tongue?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Tswana.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, well maybe you should - what language have you been speaking, I haven't been listening?  Were you speaking South Sotho or Tswana all along?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Tswana.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]  Yes?  I had to interrupt because there was a complaint from the interpreters that they can't hear you clearly.
	Yes Mr Tloubatla?

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	The last question was, you are speaking of misplacement, that you were misplaced and I want you to give us more details about the misplacement.  Who was misplaced and then where did those people stay, how and so on.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I have mentioned that ...[intervention]

MR TLOUBATLA: Just take it slow, don't be fast okay, so that we can follow you.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I have mentioned earlier on that in 1986 I was a member of AZAPO and in that year AZAPO and UDF were fighting.  As a member of AZAPO it was not safe for me as well as other comrades of mine to stay with our families, that is why we were misplaced.  That is why we had camps where we could stay, thinking that we are safe in those camps.  Unlike staying in our respective homes because you sleep alone at home and it's not safe in that way.

CHAIRPERSON: The interpreter uses the word misplaced, I think they are saying displaced.

INTERPRETER: Thank you Chairperson.

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	You home, where was it at the time and then where were you staying to try and avoid these attacks from your opposition organisation?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: In 1986 I stayed in Orlando East and I went to stay in one of our hide-outs in some parts in Orlando East far from home.

MR TLOUBATLA: You also mention, that is on the second page of your application, that is page 15 of the bundle, you say
"Parents were killed because they fathered members of a wrong political organisation"
You mention Khomezulu, Sitlejani, Lingani's houses were burnt down.  Do you know of any particular parents of members of your organisation who were perhaps harassed or killed, that is the parents who were either harassed or killed simply because they were the parents of members of your organisation?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: The parents that I remember who were killed in 1986 because their children were members of AZAPO, I remember Mr Jacob Lingani.  Mr Jacob Lingani was killed because his children were members of AZAPO.  I remember Mr Buks Leo who was also killed because his child was a member of AZAPO.  In Zola I remember an incident where Lerato Sitlejani's was burnt down because Lerato was a member of AZAPO at that time.

MR TLOUBATLA: You further mention that
"In avoidance of retaliation and bloodshed we were continuously on the run and appealed to key leaders of the UDF to control the situation"
When you say you were continually on the run, what was happening, can you explain that?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: We are members of AZAPO, which is a political organisation which had discipline and a political programme.  Most black people were part of our political programme, that is why it took us time to realise that we were supposed to defend ourselves by killing in other instances because members of SOSCO were black people.  Before they became members of UDF - I will put it this way, before we had problems with them we were displaced at all times, trying to run away from them, trying to avoid conflicts.

MR TLOUBATLA: When you say you were continually or continuously on the run, would I be correct or is that,  what you mean?  In other words that you didn't keep one place, you didn't stay at one place all the time, is that the meaning that I should put into that?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: In English I would say we were nomadic because we did not stay at one place, the reason for that being that of security measure.  If it could have been identified, our hiding place would be in danger and that is why we were nomadic, not staying in one place.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed to something else Mr Tloubatla, are you reading from, where are you reading from in leading your witness Mr Tloubatla?  Are you reading from the statement which is an Annexure?

MR TLOUBATLA: Yes.  This bundle, I don't know whether the Chairman has got this ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Where precisely are you reading from?

MR TLOUBATLA: Page 15 of the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have a copy of what is being read to you?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I have it Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: This is a letter that you wrote to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?