Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-07-31

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman I also cannot oppose Mr Chairman because he will be exercising his rights but I would suggest, in the event of the Committee so decides that he get a legal representation, this matter be treated like the one we postponed this morning.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: To be arranged in Durban, thank you.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is off.

CHAIRPERSON: ... no sound.  .....possible to avoid this sort of thing happening and it seems here that the original notice given on the 8th July said the wrong place and the wrong date and  I can't understand how that mistake could have been made.  The contact is with somebody in Durban which is not the easiest thing for somebody stationed elsewhere and I think steps should be taken in future to make contact with implicated or concerned parties as soon as possible to explain to them.  That's if even months before - as soon as it is known that a hearing is going to - that an application is going to be held so that adequate arrangements can be made rather than just a few weeks before and much as I regret it, I think that we will be obliged to adjourn this matter.  Do you agree?  Is there any possibility of obtaining legal advice this afternoon?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, there's no such possibility because we've got to go through the process otherwise we are held with the legal actions if we don't follow the process.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)  The other fact that I think should have been drawn to Sergeant van Schalkwyk's attention is he was the person who was injured, isn't he?

SGT VAN SCHALKWYK: That's right.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: In the course of his duty, while on duty and it seems to be certainly a matter where the Deputy State Attorney would have acted on his behalf, not in a case that necessitates an application for assistance in the legal ...(no sound)  This is not a case that has to go to the Legal Aid Board, is it?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It is the case.

CHAIRPERSON: Pardon?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It is the case Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Why, why doesn't the Deputy State Attorney act for him?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Magistrate, it is the case that can still be expedited.  A letter can be written to the State Attorney of the area where he is stationed and they will take the matter up.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)  Couldn't he be taken to see the Deputy State Attorney in Pietermaritzburg this afternoon for advice to be obtained?  Would you be available tomorrow if necessary Sergeant?

SGT VAN SCHALKWYK: If I have to be I will ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn this matter but I would suggest that Sergeant van Schalkwyk be taken by somebody who has full knowledge of what has happened, to the Deputy State Attorney's office here, tell him what the position is and it may be that after consultation, the Sergeant will not want to take the matter further, maybe he will but they can notify and you can notify us tomorrow morning what the position is.  If some agreement can be reached well and good, if not it will adjourn to another date so you will have adequate time, we're not trying to rush you Sergeant.  I don't know what particular aspects you want to discuss with your lawyer but I think you should be given legal advice as soon as possible.

SGT VAN SCHALKWYK: Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So this matter is tentatively adjourned until tomorrow.

MR WILLS: I'm sorry Mr Chairperson, is the implication of that decision that the Applicant and the witness must attend tomorrow as well?

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose so because they may wish to ask some questions.

MR WILLS: Possibly it ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Where are they going to?

MR WILLS: They - first of all the Applicant is in fact indigent.  The witness assisted in bringing him here from Sindumbele this morning.  The Applicant made his way from Matubatuba for Sindumbele yesterday.  They are not in a position where they have got accommodation overnight and so the - if they were required to be here tomorrow, it would be quite difficult but possibly I can come - I'll consult them and see - what I thought might be ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I think we should make arrangements to provide accommodation for them or contribute their accommodation, when I say we I mean the TRC.  What I was going to suggest is if you could perhaps keep in touch with the Deputy State Attorney.  If nothing is going to happen which is the probable outcome, then let them go home.

MR WILLS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If, however - no I think, the more I think about it there it would not be necessary for them to be here tomorrow.  I cannot imagine if the Deputy State Attorney does advise the Sergeant that he should be represented, obviously the representative will want to consult with the Sergeant, will want to read the papers and will not be ready to go on tomorrow.  The only circumstances in which we can go on tomorrow is if the advice the Sergeant gets is to let the matter rest for the present time and does not intend to take any further part, in that case we can dispose of the matter but I think we cannot expect certainly, to be unreasonable to expect them to be in a position to proceed tomorrow so I think you can release the Applicant and his witness.  We will adjourn the matter merely to cover the position that they may not want to lead further evidence, they merely want to say something or - so we'll adjourn it until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.  Were you planning to stay in Pietermaritzburg Sergeant?

SGT VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr Chairperson, at this stage not but I'm used to travel so I can ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's leave it.  I think you can make the arrangements if the Deputy - well again, if the Deputy State Attorney is merely going to send someone here to make formal submissions on your behalf, you needn't be here either.  It's only if you're going to give evidence that you will be required to be here and it's a matter you can arrange with him.

SGT VAN SCHALKWYK: I will arrange with him Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And I think if you could, just in the hope that we may be able to dispose of it if Mr Mpshe could arrangements and Mr Wills can perhaps tell such as to where he is to be found, he's not very far away is he?

MR WILLS: Fortunately nothing is very far in Maritzburg.

CHAIRPERSON: And take him now and see what can be done but I want you to make it clear to the Deputy State Attorney, we are not putting any pressure on him to proceed tomorrow unless after he has spoken to the Sergeant he decides that it can be disposed of easily tomorrow.  He wanted to obtain further information, if he wants to consult further we will certainly grant him an adjournment to do so and he need not be represented if he merely notifies us that he desires an adjournment, the matter will be adjourned.  You can tell him that, thank you.  We will now adjourn till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning and I hope Sergeant you get things sorted out.

SGT VAN SCHALKWYK: Thank you Sir.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS