Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MS MOLOISANE: Was she present amongst the comrades there?
MR RADEBE
"She was seated with the comrades inside.  I asked them, '...comrades, where did you get her?'  They said, '...in the train.'  Who found her, they explained.  The comrades assumed she was going to her mother, and when the train was at Stratford station, that's where they took her out of the train by force.  They took a taxi from Orange Farm to Small Farm.  That was the information given to me.
		I was with comrade Sipho Tshabalala at that time, and I asked them.  There was a firearm that we used to carry, we used to call it Boito.  Now I had Boito with me, but it was hidden under a lumber jacket, because I was wearing a lumber jacket.  There was only one round inside.  And I said to them, '...comrades, do you know that the police can arrive at any moment and disturb you because you are in a big group?'  We then left with her.  	We were taking her to Reverend King's house, that's where we had an ANC office.  We were a group of comrades.  
		Comrade Majiga was holding her in his hand and I was following from behind together with comrade Sipho, and I recalled that, yes, the police are troubling us in this area, I don't need any information from Maletsatsi.  It was enough, the information that we had about Maletsatsi was enough, that she was Imidwembe, and an order had been issued out.  What order was I waiting for?  That's where I pulled out Boito from underneath the lumber jacket.  I shot her from behind, and she fell, and I said to comrades, '...let us leave and go to Zone 12.'  
		We went to Zone 12 and we slept over there.  The next morning we came back to see, to check as to what happened.  When we arrived there, Maletsatsi's body was still there from the previous night.  We passed and I met comrade Mandla Malindi.  Comrade Mandla Malindi said to us, '...comrades, a certain comrade from Zone 12 arrived.'  I think he mentioned his name but I've forgotten the name.  He said that comrade stabbed Maletsatsi with a knife.  That's how Maletsatsi's case ended."

MS MOLOISANE: Now you said Maletsatsi knew a lot about the ANC.  Was there anything wrong if she knew a lot about it?

JOHN RADEBE: There was nothing wrong.

MS MOLOISANE: And you said an order that she be killed was issued because she knew a lot.  Can you just elaborate on that?

JOHN RADEBE: When I said she knew a lot, I was saying she knew our activities.  Now that she was in that place we were going to be an easy target.  Our place of hiding was going to be attacked by the police, and our stuff was going to be confiscated.  We used places such as the churches, there's something we called DLB.  It was a place where we would put our stuff.  Now we realised that we were going to lose a lot of things.

MS MOLOISANE: Now from what you are saying, are you implying that you were worried that she would impart the information to the other side?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: I have no further questions, Madam Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOLOISANE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Moloisane.  Ms Thabethe do you have any cross-examination?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Madam Chair.  Mr Radebe besides the evidence that you have given today, do you still maintain what you had written in your affidavit, on pages 147 and 148 of the bundle?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: In that affidavit, you stated that one of the people you were with when you hunted for Maletsatsi, Page 128 paragraph 6, was Bonga Khumalo, and when Bonga Khumalo was asked, was questioned yesterday about his presence when you were hunting for Maletsatsi, he denied it.  What is your response to his denial?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.  He disagreed correctly.  It's true.

MS THABETHE: What is true?  The fact that he denied?

JOHN RADEBE: When he says he was not present when Maletsatsi was hunted.

MS THABETHE: So can you explain why you included his name?

JOHN RADEBE: The person who came to the prison to take this statement I think the names that I mentioned to him were more than the names that he has written down.  Many times when we were hunting for someone we would be many, and comrade Bonga Khumalo would ultimately receive such information.  I think that's how it came to his knowledge.

MS THABETHE: But right now, just before this, I asked you whether you still maintain what you had said in this affidavit, and you said yes.  So are you changing your statement now?

JOHN RADEBE: Can I inform ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Radebe.  Can we observe some rules of decency.  ...(indistinct), this is our Evidence Leader.  Please try and be polite.  I can see that there has not been any observance of rules of decency.  It's getting into my nerves.

JOHN RADEBE: The Committee should actually forgive me, I am not a Mosotho, I'm a Zulu, and I'm trying my best to speak in Sotho.  Now if I make mistakes, please Committee forgive me. ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: If that is so, speak in Zulu.  We have translators who will translate what you are saying in Zulu.  Even in Zulu, don't say this woman.  Her name is Ms Thabethe or just refer to her as Evidence Leader.

JOHN RADEBE: My apologies.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to give your evidence in Zulu?

JOHN RADEBE: I do not prefer Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: You said now the reason why you are making such mistakes which borders on indecency is because you are Sotho speaking but Zulu.

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct, but I'm saying I don't like Zulu.  I only speak Zulu when I am at home.  But the language that I communicate easily with is Sotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Just don't make that mistake again, and don't give, I think the reason that you have advanced, it's uncalled for.

JOHN RADEBE: I promise.

MS THABETHE: Can you then Mr Radebe explain why, when I asked you if you still adhere to the statement, you said yes, if there are things contained in the statement that you don't agree with?

JOHN RADEBE: Maybe the mistake came from the statement taker, or I must have put it differently and the statement taker did not write it down the way I put it to him or her.

MR LAX: Mr Radebe, this statement has been read to you by your lawyer, is that right?

JOHN RADEBE: I am seeing the statement now.

MR LAX: You saw the statement the last time you testified.  You confirmed it had been read to you.  It's the same statement.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct, even after I gave my statement it was read to me.

MR LAX: So, it's nothing unusual, you were asked if you confirmed the contents of that statement and whether you still stood by it, and you confirmed that.  Correct?

JOHN RADEBE: Correct.

MR LAX: Well let's not have any weak excuses then, please.

MS THABETHE: In your evidence you have stated that besides Kennel Malekwani, Mr Khumalo also gave you, sorry not Mr Khumalo, Mr Mabusa Ndlovu also gave you an order.  Is that correct?

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: Can you explain why you didn't include that in your statement?  Instead, you said, on page 148, paragraph 9
	"...during 1993 from Zone 12 Sebokeng, Sebokeng were experiencing a similar problem that we had had.  We were informed by Mamuso Mhlongo."
My question is why didn't you highlight it, the fact that he had given you orders to kill Maletsatsi as well?  Especially after you had highlighted the fact that he spoke to you about having experienced a similar problem in Zone 12 at Sebokeng.

JOHN RADEBE: Why I did not mention Mabusa is because I heard this from Kennel.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were in fact instructed, ordered by Kennel and not Mabusa.

JOHN RADEBE: It's Mabusa.  Kennel's order was, we were many when he informed us.  I would say it's an order because he was informing the comrades who were present that morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't Kennel advising students?

JOHN RADEBE: ...(not translated)

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he give you a message, that Ms Maletsatsi was now staying with the IFP?