Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-09

BONGANI NKOSI: I wouldn't be able to answer with reference to all the shacks, but I will say, I won't be able to say whether the mother was an IFP or the father was an ANC, we had to kill all the people, because we knew we were divided, they were on the other side, and we were on the other side.
	In that way we were separated.  Even our relatives, even you might find that your relatives were on the other side, and during the time of the fighting, we didn't have to select, we have to kill anyone who was on the other side.

MR SIBANYONI: You have told us in so many words, that there was a lot of fighting.  Now today, when you sit there and looking back, do you regret about what happened?

BONGANI NKOSI: I won't say I regret, but I would like to say that we were fighting.  If someone who instigated the violence will come and say I regret, I started the violence, maybe I will ask for forgiveness, but at the present moment, I don't regret, and I am not sorry because even at the present moment, if violence erupts, I will say, I won't stand it, I will run away, because I don't like it.
	But I would like the situation to change, to be better and that there be peace, and we live well.  But to say I regret, I won't say so.

MR SIBANYONI: Let me ask you the last question, you are aware that before the Amnesty Committee, before the TRC, you have to tell the whole truth as it is, do you understand it that way?

BONGANI NKOSI: Yes, I was told that while completing the form, that whatever I put in the form, I would be able to stand up on oath and say it before the Committee and I am saying that what I am saying today, is the truth.

MR SIBANYONI: Can you now tell the Committee the truth about this aspect, where is that AK47 you loved so much, today?

BONGANI NKOSI: I am sorry, my apology for laughing.  I would say it was painful, it was September, during the integration of the police, the SDUs and the police, and we were sitting and discussing the issue with Rev Dandau and I was talking to Mr Mafulela and we were talking peace.  We agreed that there will be amnesty and indemnity and we were supposed to bring all the unlawful firearms.
	When I was taking mine, it was difficult, they had to push me to take it to the box where we were supposed to collect all the firearms.  In that way I ended up giving it up and that is how I departed with it.  I was not happy because I was thinking maybe they will take all the ammunition inside and they will give it to me just to keep it as something to remember.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you own a firearm today?

BONGANI NKOSI: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Lawfully?

BONGANI NKOSI: Yes, it is a lawful firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane, what was that all about?

MR SHANE: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: What was that all about?

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman, the question of whether he today possessed a firearm, it is not anything that I dealt with him, I just wanted to clear it first, but there is no problem there Mr Chairman, he does have a lawful firearm, it seems and he has made, obviously, he is answering it frankly and I told him to answer the question.

CHAIRPERSON: I would appreciate you not interfering with my questioning.

MR SHANE: As Mr Chairman pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Any of the panel's questioning.  Now, what do you think of the present situation in Tokoza, are you happy about it?

BONGANI NKOSI: Even if I am asleep, I know I can rest very well.  I even have dreams because previously we used to not sleep because there were firearms, the sound of guns and everything, running up and down but now we can walk around the township.  We will enter places where we used not to go and we also greet people.
	I would say it is a very peaceful situation and I don't think there will be anything to come and change the situation.  We work together with them and we also attend meetings, all of us, together.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, what do you envisage, what would you like to see this country like in future?

BONGANI NKOSI: I didn't ask myself this question, it will be difficult and I will appreciate if I can have work to work and other people have work, to work.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't you like a country of peace loving people, irrespective of the colour of the skin or the political party to which anybody is affiliated to, a real peaceful country, a fair country?

BONGANI NKOSI: The way you explain it, it is clear to me and I am happy.  I think if we are not to distinguish people by a question of to which organisation they belong, it is not a good thing, so we shall be able to live peacefully if that is dealt away with.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you happy to contribute towards that kind of country?

BONGANI NKOSI: Yes, I will appreciate if there was anything I can do to help achieve that, I will.  Anything, even you can ask me that the two of do it, I would be prepared to do it.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, I ask that question in view of your answer earlier today about your willingness to really meet the people against whom you were fighting at that time, for whatever reason.
	Are you willing, if in order to attain that kind of nation and that kind of land, one would have to go and meet and make friends with people with whom you were fighting previously, are you willing to do that?

BONGANI NKOSI: I think we have already started meeting and trying to build a better future.  We only knew each other, however, we needed someone to come and intervene, to say to us, please don't fight, there is nothing to fight about.

CHAIRPERSON: In particular the victims of your actions, are you willing particularly to meet them, to make friends because we can't exist like enemies still?

BONGANI NKOSI: Yes, we can sit but not discussing what exactly happened.   But we should sit now and think and from now on, as owners, what we have to do, corrective steps that we shall have to take and go forward.

CHAIRPERSON: But we intend to be honest with each other and try and establish a future in a land that is nice to live in, then you can't dictate what must be discussed and what mustn't be discussed.  You throw everything on the table, and if somebody wants to discuss the past, then so be it.  It will be with the view of living properly afterwards, wouldn't you agree?

BONGANI NKOSI: I will say we are in a different boat, we are not in the same boat, me and yourself because the people that I attacked, I don't know them.  It is so difficult to go to a person and say I did this and that.
	Even if they were to ask me when we discuss this issue, I won't be able to freely say what happened.  I am trying to say that we need someone to come in between and we talk from now onwards as to what we are going to do and we forget about what happened.  That is what I would support the most.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, what about the Thabete family and Albert?  You know them, and those two gentlemen whose houses you - who used to live in your yard, whose homes you burnt up, you know them?

BONGANI NKOSI: I would say we were fighting.  I found the situation like that, and I continued fighting.   But now, it is a peaceful area.  I wouldn't say I am sorry, because it was the situation, they were fighting and we were fighting.
	However, I do accept that it was a bad situation, and out of that situation, I had to do what I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't it a question of prioritising what this country needs now?  Isn't it?

BONGANI NKOSI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you need to extend the hand of friendship amongst our people, first and foremost, would you agree?

BONGANI NKOSI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And we've got to do what is necessary to do so, not so?

BONGANI NKOSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, has it at any time occurred that members of the IFP, political party, have approached you to make peace?

BONGANI NKOSI: Not yet.

CHAIRPERSON: What would your attitude be if that would happen?