Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-02

MR LAX: Why didn't you, if you feared for your life, speak to the prison authorities, tell them that you were very worried, here was a situation were the law required you to make full disclosure and you were worried that if you made full disclosure you would put yourself in danger, maybe they could move you to another place or provide you with some security?  Why didn't you follow that up?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I did not think about that accept that I was afraid at the time.

MR LAX: Are you afraid now?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I'm not afraid now because I'm saying the truth, the only truth now and I'm compelled to say the truth.  What can happen to me after me having said the truth, that will then happen, that will be it.

MS GCABASHE: When did you stop being afraid because you have now told us about Jimmy Jones?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Before we went on trial for the church case at Bisho.

MS GCABASHE: But at that case you didn't tell the truth, that's what you said to us yesterday unless I misunderstand you.

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, if I might interject.  At that trial they never gave any evidence.

MR LAX: So what was it that made you change your fear at that point?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It is because I was told that at the trial at Bisho I must say I got instructions from Commander Sabelo Pama.

MR LAX: Who told you that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was commander Jimmy Jones.

MR LAX: So at that trial you were going to lie again about your instructions?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I was not - it was not my intention to lie again because as I did not lie there.

MR LAX: But your instructions didn't come from Sabelo Pama.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is true.  I discovered what will not - it will not happen that for example, it is not possible for a command to come from a General on top  and to reach the soldier on the ground, that cannot happen and the TRC will know it and see that indeed I'm lying plain when I say I got the instructions from Sabelo Pama.

MR LAX: The point I'm simply making is, you were intending to give that version at your trial and that was a lie and you were aware of that, isn't that so?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, I was not about to say that.

MR LAX: So you were going to disobey saying that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, that would not mean I did not follow the instructions because the person who was telling me these things was outside and not in prison, stays relaxed with his family.  He did not support me with anything in prison and my family was suffering.

MR LAX: That doesn't change the fact that you were going to disobey what you presumed to be your commander? Whatever your motive might have been, you were still going to disobey him?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, because I was not under his command I was under the Government control.  I was not in a camp or outside where I'm supposed to take orders from him.

MR LAX: So you still haven't answered the questsion, what was it that made you not afraid, if that was the case?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was because I knew that it will not help me in Court and the TRC to lie and say I was intructed by Sabelo Pama to go and attack at the church while it's the one who gave me the instruction is still alive.

MR LAX: So it had nothing to do with being afraid, but everything to do with what might help you?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR LAX: Just one last aspect, and I'm not sure - it's an aspect from the transcript of your first trial, I'm not sure whether you have a copy of this yet and maybe what we can do is make a copy and let you read during the lunch break and just deal with it after the lunch break.  So I think I'll hold this question over till that point rather than deal with it now.
	Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll get back to my invitation to ask you to re-examine.

MS COLLETT: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Ncamazana, when you testified in the East London Court, is it correct that you were given instructions or that you believed that you had to protect the persons who, person that had given you the instructions to carry out these commands?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I was protecting the one who gave me the orders to do these things.

MS COLLETT: Why were you protecting him?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Because I was afraid of him being arrested.

MS COLLETT: Afraid of him being arrested because he was your commander?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so because it may be that if he is arrested I may in danger.

MS COLLETT: Did you believe that you had to protect him because he was your commander and that was your duty as a soldier?

MR PRIOR: With respect Mr Chairman, that is such a leading question, with respect.  We've heard so many conflicting versions from this witness, whether he - what he told and what said to either protect himself or advance his position.  I object on the basis that it's a leading question.

MS COLLETT: I'll rephrase it.
	What did you believe your duty was as a soldier towards your commander?

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat the question.

MS COLLETT: What did you believe your duty was as a soldier towards your commander?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: To do whatever I could to protect him from arrest during that trial because I knew the police were after him and they also told me to talk about him and say he is the one who commanded me to commit those acts.

MS COLLETT: Did you expect any benefit from APLA or the PAC if you did that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, there was no benefit that I would reap from such a thing.

MS COLLETT: Now when you filled in your amnesty application the first time, did you receive any advice from anybody as to who you should or shouldn't implicate or what you should or shouldn't say?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: There were such advices given.

MS COLLETT: What was the gist of that advice?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We were told that when making these applications for amnesty we must not talk about the commander we must talk about those who are already deceased.

MS COLLETT: Are you trying to say that you must say that the people that commanded you are already deceased?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: And is that why the application was intially filled in with the name of the person that is contained therein?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so, yes.

MS COLLETT: Now you stood trial in Bisho for the Bahai Faith case, do you remember?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, I remember.

MS COLLETT: Now, was it your decision that at that particular case when you, if you should have given evidence or that the facts that were to be put to the witnesses were that Jimmy Jones was the person who commanded you?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That's what I thought because indeed it was he who had instructed me but he had sent people to come and tell us that we must not mention him and he too came personally and told us these things and I told him, I denied right in front of him that I would not do such a thing.  There was a person there when he came to tell us, the mother of Africa Tjobane, that's the reason why he was stopped by the Court from visiting us.

MS COLLETT: What do you mean he was stopped by the Court from visiting you in prison?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It is because he was there to change us from mentioning him in Court and talk about Sabelo Pama.

MS COLLETT: Is it correct that it was in the Bisho High Court in connection with the Bahai Faith case that  you implicated Jimmy Jones?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Did Jimmy - the defence that you raised to the Bahai Faith case in Bisho, what was that defence?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What I said was that I had no - I was not guilty except that I was following orders that I got from him.

MS COLLETT: Did Jimmy Jones testify in the Bahai Faith case?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, he gave no testimony in Court.  He said he was going to appear before the TRC and tell everything.