Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-24

MR MALAN: Yes, we're not talking metres.  You pointed the distance here, which we agreed, I think we're satisfied is at the most 20 metres.  My question is this, I understood you to be saying Saul was in the road in front of the vehicle and you were on the side.  Did you shoot at the front of the vehicle or were you next to the vehicle on the side?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: We fired towards the front and some fired at the side of the vehicle.

MR MALAN: Now this is exactly the question, were you firing at the side of the vehicle or at the front?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I fired towards the side.

MR MALAN: Now if you were firing to the side, how broad was this road that you could be 20 metres away, firing at the side?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: The road was wide, as well as the fact that at that time the car was turning around a bend, so that at that time the side of the vehicle was facing towards us.

MR MALAN: That I really don't understand.  Is this bend, can you point the bend for us?  A bend is not a turn to the right or to the left, in terms of a 90 degree turn.  What kind of a bend?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: It was a bend where the car was going to turn left.

MR MALAN: Was it a single road or was there a connecting road?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: It was one single road.

MR MALAN: I don't know how to get the information as to the nature of this bend.  We don't have a map or anything that could indicate that.  Could you explain to us the width of the road in distance?  Was it as wide as from where you are sitting to where I am, or to where your counsel was, or to the back of the hall?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: The width would be from where I am seated to the person with the camera out there.

MR MALAN: That's about 8 paces.  Now, and you were standing on the side of the road?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I was on the side.

MR MALAN: Now can you again explain to us, if that was the width of the road, how could you have been as far as you earlier pointed to us, the lady standing, which we agreed was at most say 20 metres away?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Please repeat that question.

MR MALAN: Can you explain to us how could you have been 20 metres away from the car, if you were standing on the side of the road shooting at the side of the vehicle, when the road was only from where you are sitting to the person with the camera?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I was standing on the side, waiting for the car to approach because it was coming from below and going up that steep hill.

MR MALAN: Did the car stop?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: It stopped after we had fired at it.

MR MALAN: How far were you from the car when it stopped?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Although I cannot estimate the distance, but maybe I could point it out here.

MR MALAN: Please do.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: When the vehicle stopped I would say maybe I would be where I am seated and the vehicle would be there where my attorney is sitting.

MR MALAN: That's two times the width of the road.  About 16 paces, or a little less.

CHAIRPERSON: I think about 10 to 12 paces.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: And when it stopped, did the driver jump out and run away?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I could not see him.

ADV DE JAGER: But weren't you shooting at the driver?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, we were directing our shots towards the driver, but when he stepped out of the vehicle we did not see him.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it your evidence today that you saw no-one leaving the vehicle?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, no-one saw the driver stepping out of the vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not talking about the driver, you saw no-one leaving the vehicle during your attack?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, we did not see anyone because after firing those shots we ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: In your affidavit you say the shooting lasted for a minute or two and during that time nobody escaped from the vehicle.  I am waiting for an answer.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: At that time we did not see anyone stepping out of the vehicle because we were preparing to flee.

CHAIRPERSON: And you couldn't see how many people were inside the vehicle?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, we did not see that.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you have sight at least of the driver?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: When you started firing at the car, that car had reached the top of an incline, is it not so?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, it was just at the start of the incline.

CHAIRPERSON: So it had not reached the top of the incline?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, it had not reached the top, it was just at the start of that incline.

CHAIRPERSON: So the bend is before you reach the top of the incline?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may proceed, Mr Sardiwalla.

MR SARDIWALLA: Thank you Chairperson.  So you fired.  The firing lasted for a minute or two and you say you fled thereafter. Where did you flee to?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: We fled to where we used to reside.

MR SARDIWALLA: So did you not wait for any particular response to see what the effects of your shooting were?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, we did not wait.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you not go to the car to see how many people had fallen victims of what you had intended to do?  Your stated objective was to kill a certain Mr Makeke.  Did you not have an interest in finding out if that driver was indeed Makeke and if that Makeke had died, because the stated objective of this attack was to kill Makeke?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: It was not easy to go check at the vehicle because we believed that they were also armed and they could easily fire at us, that is why we just fired and then fled.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you ever told that Makeke moved in the company of people who were armed at all times?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, we knew that.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get that information?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: We used to see him passing in the company of those people.

CHAIRPERSON: So you actually knew Makeke quite well?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I knew him.

MR MALAN: May I just find out - Makeke, what was his full name?  Is it Mkhize?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I just know him as Makeke.

MR MALAN: You're aware that in the trial of your brothers, that evidence was introduced there that a certain Mkhize was the target?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I have no knowledge thereof.

MR MALAN: I can just refer you to page 5 of the Judgment which is in the bundle, that in a statement by your brother the accused number 1, which was the subject of a trial within a trial, that he told that he was instructed by his uncle, accused number 2, to join him in an intended attack upon a certain Mkhize and he named in that statement, Mkawe, Toto, Saul and Sishe as the co-conspirators.  You also names Saul and Sishe and I think Toto.  You did not mention Toto?
Saul and Sishe.  But you don't know who this Mkhize was?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Which Mkhize?

CHAIRPERSON: Was it ever your intention to kill a person by the name of Mkhize, as opposed to Makeke?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, I did not have such intentions because that was my brother.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know this Mkhize, who has been referred to in this Judgment?  Are you familiar with the statement which has been put to you by Mr Malan?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but would you know which Mkhize your brother was referring to?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I would not know, but there is just one Mkhize that I know and that person is my brother.

CHAIRPERSON: You would be speculating, wouldn't you, because there is no first name?

MR MALAN: He said Mkhize was his brother.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but he doesn't know which Mkhize is referred to here.  That would be speculation on your behalf because you don't know which Mkhize was being referred to in this alleged statement made by your brother.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: That's correct.

MR MALAN: Sorry, I just want to get clarity from the interpretation.  Did you say Mkhize was your brother?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, Mkhize is my brother.