Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That will be done Mr Chairman.  Mrs Mewa(?)I think you should understand that I don't want you to be leftwith wrong impressions, I think you should understand that itdoes not necessarily mean that you would get any reparation. There are certain legal requirements which would have to be metbefore you could qualify for that kind of grant.  Depending onhow this application is disposed of it may very well be that youcould qualify and depending also on the nature of the outcomeof our decision it may very well be that you do not qualify. It is in fact strictly speaking not this committee that is goingto decide whether you qualify or not but it is the law as it stands. And please do not leave here under the impression that you areautomatically going to qualify for reparation.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  You are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman then that sums up evidenceas far as matter number H is concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman the applicantyesterday in his evidence, as well as in his application statedcertain facts on which he based his application.  I must be honestI've got difficulty in supporting this application insofar asit is connected as the act, the offence being committed to obtainor further a political objective.  Taking the factors stated insection 20(3) of the Act being the motive, the context in whichthis matter took place or the offence occurred as well as thelegal and factual nature of the act and the gravity of the offencethe objectives as well as the relationship and the directnessand proximity I must admit that I am in dire straits to honestlyand openly state that I feel that  a case has been made out tomeet the requirements of section 20 of this Act.  I have got nothingfurther to add.  Should the Committee wish to hear me on certainother matters I would be glad to respond to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman I am alsoin the same position as my colleague Mr Chairman.  Suffice itfor me only to say that the applicant David Jackson did not satisfythe requirements of the Act particularly section 20 and its subsectionsMr Chairman.  Mr Chairman will recall in the minutes of the committeethat at one stage under cross-examination by myself I put a questionto him as to any political achievement and he was very clear hesaid nothing politically was achieved by the killing of this man. Mr Chairman and members of the Committee I just want to directand state clearly that this what the applicant did it was donebecause of a fight between himself and the deceased and as hestated in his evidence-in-chief that he did as he did becausehe was defending himself, and it is as simple as all that.  Iam at pains Mr Chairman to find any political motivation whatsoever. And I would urge the Committee to find, with respect, likewise. That is all Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MGOEPE: (?)  It may be that I am confusing these cases,I know that he said he was defending himself but was the contextof his evidence, does the context of his evidence suggest thathe is trying to say that he was defending just beyond himselfas an individual?  Did he not say that the deceased worked fora corrupt government and the deceased was against the community,he had been against the community many times, every time we hadmass action or boycott or rent boycotts, stayaways you would findhim and others assaulting children and people left, right andcentre.  I am trying to say to you are we married to the literalwords that come out of his mouth to say I was defending myself,doesn't the context of his evidence suggest that he saw the deceasedas a danger to the community at large?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman and members of the Committee. That is the evidence he gave and that is the impression he wantedto create in the minds of the Committee.  But I want to say thisthat we should not lose sight of the fact that this whole incidenthappened as a result of alcohol that was consumed in a tavernat night.  And the evidence that he gave in court does not atall suggest that he was acting as he did in protection of thecommunity.  It may well be that he said so in evidence when pushingfor his application, but my impression is that he is saying thisas a person who is here to be released out of jail.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Are you saying that had the deceased notbeena policeman and had he not had the idea that the deceasedhad in any case been ...(indistinct) of the community, are yousaying that he would still have killed him anyway had the deceasednot been anything other than a policeman?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is my point, that is my point.
 Then Mr Chairman and honourable members of the Committee thatrounds up the roll for the Kroonstad hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee will consider this applicationand makes it decision known in due course.
 Ladies and gentlemen we have come to the end of the hearing ofthe Amnesty Committee in Kroonstad.  The Committee will now terminateits proceedings and thank you very much for behaving well mostof the time.