Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-14

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: No, I was not a member of any groups at the right but shortly after I completed my military training I joined the AWB.

MR PRINSLOO: And at the AWB did you have a rank?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: No I did not.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you part of the Wen Kommando, the Ystergarde?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: I was part of the Wen Kommando.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you receive any training there?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: At the Wen Kommando they gave us further training in weapons, they enhanced it.

MR PRINSLOO: With regard to the AWB, what was the view of the AWB in relation to the Government of the day, that is the National Party and also the ANC and South African Communist Party.

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: The ANC/SACP Alliance was also the enemy of the AWB at that stage.

MR PRINSLOO: Was the AWB in favour that there should be black take-over of the government, the ANC/SACP Alliance?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: No, definitely not.

MR PRINSLOO: What was your view with regard to the National Party with regard to politics at that time, that was before the election?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Well I felt that the National Party was busy selling us out.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you at any stage during your membership of the AWB change from the movement?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes I changed from the AWB to the BWB.

MR PRINSLOO: What does BWB stand for?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: That is the Boere Weerstandsbeweging.

MR PRINSLOO: Who was the leader of the BWB?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: That was Commandant General Andrew Ford.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you know him?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes I know him.

MR PRINSLOO: Who was the deputy leader?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: I'm not quite sure, I can't really remember who that was.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, just a moment please?

MR PRINSLOO: Am I too fast?

CHAIRPERSON: No we have a bit of a technical problem.  My colleagues listening to the interpreting service have problems in hearing so I just want to find out if that is now sorted out.  Right, it seems that we don't have any problems.  Right I think it will be better now.  Could you just repeat the name of the leader of the BWB, Mr de Meillon?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: His name was Andrew Ford.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo you may continue.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr de Meillon did you also know the programme of principles that was given out by the BWB?   Chairperson, you have that on page 101 up to page 107.  That is a document - is this the document that I'm showing to you now, is this the one of the BWB?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes it is.

MR PRINSLOO: You refer to page 101 to 107 of the bundle?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr de Meillon at that stage why did you change, if I can put it, from alliance?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: The AWB didn't really satisfy my needs, they were also talking of war but they were never prepared to do anything about it and I felt that I needed something more.

MR PRINSLOO: And the BWB, what was their objectives?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: At that stage they were in a state of war with the government of the day and they were in a state of war.

MR PRINSLOO: The meetings of the BWB did you attend them?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes I did.

MR PRINSLOO: And who addressed these meetings?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Some of the meetings were addressed by the leaders themselves and others by people having higher ranks.

MR PRINSLOO: And at these meetings did they only have soft talk or did they refer to making war?  What was the situation?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: They always emphasised the fact that the BWB was in a state of war and that they were expecting full scale war.

MR PRINSLOO: What did the BWB want from the government or whoever?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: They want a Christian Boere State where they could be independent?

MR PRINSLOO: And where would this State be?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: That would have been in the Transvaal, Orange Free State and Northern Natal.

MR PRINSLOO: Would it have been linked with the old Boer Republics?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And is that also then part of the programme of principles?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: In the BWB was there any movement known as a military movement?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: The BRA, that is the Boere Republican Army, that would be the military wing of the BWB.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you belong to that?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes I did.

MR PRINSLOO: And could you just explain to the Honourable Committee how it was structured?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: In the BRL it consists of cells and it operated underground.

MR PRINSLOO: Now how many members constituted a cell?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: That was your own choice.  My cell consisted of two members.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you have a cell leader?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: In the cell itself, ranks weren't important but I had a paracell member.

MR PRINSLOO: Now that member, did he have a higher rank than you?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes he did.

MR PRINSLOO: In the BWB, who was he?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: It was General Gerhard van Rensburg.

MR PRINSLOO: Was that the person you referred to in paragraph 5 of your application on page 6 in the bundle?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: In which area would you be responsible for and where would you act?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: That would have been the whole Secunda area.

MR PRINSLOO: Where you there?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes I was.

MR PRINSLOO: How would that cell have functioned in any action?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Well it would have functioned underground and instructions would have been given anonymously by telephone to the cell members.

MR PRINSLOO: Was it said that there would have been any actions?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes I had been informed.

MR PRINSLOO: And what would happen in the nature of the action?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: It would depend.  We had to get weapons and we had to prepare for a full scale war.

MR PRINSLOO: Now the weapons that you had to obtain, for whom did you have to obtain it?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: That would be the BWB.

MR PRINSLOO: Where would you have obtained it?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: We had to get it from any available source.

MR PRINSLOO: Now would it be on a legal or illegal way?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: It would be illegal.

MR PRINSLOO: With violence or not?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: If it had to be with violence, it would have been done in that way, otherwise without any violence.

MR PRINSLOO: Was the BWB aware of the fact that you had training and that you had knowledge of the airforce base at Devon?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes they were aware of it.

MR PRINSLOO: And that was also where you received part of your training?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you at any stage receive a call from anyone?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes I received a call.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you know who the person was?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: I have no idea.

MR PRINSLOO: And what was the request?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: A person told me that the time is now appropriate to get weapons and I should know where to get them.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you told where the target was or did you have to decide yourself?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: The choice of the target was left to me.

MR PRINSLOO: Would you have to act with someone?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Initially I would have acted with my personal member but at that stage he was not available.

MR PRINSLOO: Now your personal member, who was that?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: That would have been General Gerhard van Rensburg.

MR PRINSLOO: And what did you do, that was now in connection with this call?