Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-14

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: I was disappointed Chairperson because this operation failed, not really failed, but because it didn't contribute, really contribute to the promotion of the struggle because it failed.  That is why I was disappointed.  I'm disappointed and I have remorse because another human life has been taken and there weren't really any results because of this operation.  That is why I am disappointed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chair.
	Mr de Meillon, did you at any stage as it was put to you during cross-examination that you would just attack people blindly?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: No that was never my intention or objective.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you ever convey this to your co-applicants that you would blindly attack people?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: No I did not.

MR PRINSLOO: Now this specific base at Devon, is it correct it is closer to Delmas than to Secunda itself?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: From Delmas to Pretoria is approximately an hour, do you agree?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes I agree.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you have your membership card here of the BWB?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes I have.

MR PRINSLOO: Could you please just give it to us?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not activated.

MR PRINSLOO: My apologies, Mr Chair.
	Now this is named O.A.  That is for?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: That is for Ochert Antonie.

MR PRINSLOO: Then membership, membership number 24412?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And then an I.D. number.  Whose is that?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: That is mine.

MR PRINSLOO: And then a date of birth?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: That is mine.

MR PRINSLOO: And then there's some kind of a stamp?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: That is my I.D. photo which I removed to send it to a girlfriend, I didn't really have any other photos.

MR PRINSLOO: Then you also have a photocopy, is this a copy of the same document?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And on this copy there is a photo?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes that is the photo that was on the original membership card.

MR PRINSLOO: Whose photo is that?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: That is mine.

MR PRINSLOO: And then with your permission I want to hand this in and this is then Exhibit A1 and A2.

CHAIRPERSON: That will then be A1 and A2.

MR PRINSLOO: You also in cross-examination mentioned the ballistic report in which it was indicated that a .38 special round or rather a projectile had been found in the place?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Which had been issued by the South African Police, this report?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: I also have a photostat copy of the report with me, I'm just looking for it.  Your honour, this report had been given to my colleague who is not present today, Advocate van der Walt, I will get it from her and then I will submit it to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes that is in order.

MR PRINSLOO: Oh, there is an extra report, an extra copy of the report, your Honour, if we could look at that?  This specific report, page 2 of the report, it was brought out in terms of Section 212 sub-section 4(a) and 212 and 8(a) of the Criminal Procedure Act.  Paul Johannes Murphy, attacked to the South African Police, rank Captain, Ballistic Investigation Officer.  Under paragraph 3 he mentions that
"during the investigation I found the following as contained in the envelope, sealed under such and such a number"
Paragraph 3.3:
"One .38 fired bullet pointed out under the relevant number as quoted."
Is that the report to which you refer regarding the .38 bullet?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And then with regard to your matter "Devon M.R. 30/5/4433" and did you obtain the document with regard to the case against you?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: I would like to submit this as B and that copies of this also be made.

CHAIRPERSON: That will then be Exhibit B.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chairperson.  I'll hand over a copy to my learned friends then as well.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I'm sorry to interrupt, I know I'm out of circuit here.  There are certain documentations, paging the copy of the full police docket, except certain documentation which was not contained in the bundle for obvious reasons which I have made available now to everyone's welcome to peruse it and if there's anything else, I'm just putting it on the record, that's basically the ballistic reports and further medical reports, inquest record and so forth.  I'm just putting it on the record for your knowledge.  Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Well that's in order.  If any of the parties wish to use some of the documentation then that will be in order, we'll deal with it at that stage but thank you.

MR KOTZE: It appears as if this ballistic report could be relevant to Messrs Holder and Van Zyl's application and I would also like to receive a bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you like to receive instructions in this regard?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, if I have an extra copy I'll make it available, of the bundle.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you your Honour.
	Mr de Meillon, you did your military service at Devon.  Did you know at all that the Internal Stability Unit section had taken over the base and that the airforce no longer operated from it?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: No I didn't.

MR PRINSLOO: If you had known this, would you have gone there that evening?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: No I wouldn't have.

MR PRINSLOO: Before you went there together with your co-applicant Mr Holder and climbed over the fence to go there did it in way come to your attention that it was no longer airforce base but that it was manned by police?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: No it didn't look in any way different to me.  There was no reason for me to think that the base as no longer in the airforce possession.

MR PRINSLOO: You also testified to a question by Advocate Gcabashe that you didn't know about the initial declaration of war but during your attendance of meetings, was reference made to the war that was declared and which was continuing?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes there was.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you doubt it in any way especially in the circumstances ruling in the country at the time?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: No, I didn't doubt it at all.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you know a member of the BWB by the name of Harmse?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Vrooneman?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Vrooneman's name I know but I don't know him personally.

MR PRINSLOO: Are you aware at this stage that Harmse and Vrooneman had made application for amnesty for deeds committed under the banner of the BWB and that they had received amnesty?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes I am aware of the fact that they had received amnesty.

MR PRINSLOO: Just a second please, Mr Chair?
Mr de Meillon, did you at any stage doubt that the person who had telephonically instructed you, did you at any stage think that he had been a false person, a faceless person who couldn't give the instruction?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: No I never doubted the correctness of the instruction of the validity of the instruction which I had been given.

MR PRINSLOO: During your action with your fellow co-applicants did you inform them of your intentions?

OCHERT ANTONIE DE MEILLON: Yes I did.

MR PRINSLOO: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Prinsloo.  My colleague, Mr Sibanyoni, has an additional question also which he would like to pose to your client and then if you would like to react to it you have the opportunity to do so.