Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-12-01

CHAIRPERSON: You must listen very carefully, I'm not sure if it's being interpreted properly.  Doris is the other person that was shot.  It's the sister or the sibling, I'm not too sure.

JABU JACOB NYETHE: Now I understand.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright.

CHAIRPERSON: She tells her advocate that when you people came there she said certain things about her affiliation.  Do you agree with that or don't you agree with that?  Or maybe you can repeat your question, it will be better.

MR SWANEPOEL: I will repeat the question for you.
	Do you recall Doris telling you when you initially went to the house where you found her, that she was not a member of the IFP?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: We didn't question her, we just followed the instructions, the commander had done everything.  Probably he is the one who asked her that, we didn't question her.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright, now you went a bit fast initially.  Can I just get the names again of the people who were with you?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: Mdmase, Kifuwe, Jango, Vuyisile, Mogoera.

ADV DE JAGER: Can't you go slow please, I'm trying to write it down?  Mdmase?  The second one was Kifuwe or what was the name?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: Kifuwe, Mavi, Jango, Doctor, Mogoera, these are the only people I can still remember.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairperson, I note that it's 11 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SWANEPOEL: As you please.
	Was Joseph there?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: Yes he was there.

MR SWANEPOEL: Right, now who else?

CHAIRPERSON: He has already said he can't remember, maybe if you suggest names he could say yes or no.

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you Mr Chair.
	Could you remember anybody else being there?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: And also Masevin.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright, now from there after you arrested - you took - you caught Sibongele in another section, you took her back to her house, is that correct?  And there you found Doris as well, is that correct?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: And from there you took the two of them.  Did you take them to Ben initially?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: We took them towards Danger Zone and then the commander stopped us on our way and the others continued with them.

MR SWANEPOEL: Right, now who continued with them, who stayed behind and who continued with them?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: As I've explained, it was myself, Mogoera and Vuyisile and then the rest continued and others, I can't remember their names, it was a large group, people of between 20 and 25 and they continued with them.

MR SWANEPOEL: And they were allowed to continue because they had guns and you had to stay behind because you didn't?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Alright, now in any event, at a later stage you received weapons and you proceeded to the danger zone and on your way you met Doctor, is that right?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: Yes, Siphiwe gave me a gun and on my way I met Doctor and he is the one who explained to me that the comrades were not doing according to the instructions.

MR SWANEPOEL: And he told you that the comrades were raping them, is that correct?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now did he tell you who was raping them?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: No he didn't explain, I got scared when I heard the word rape and then I left Doctor then and there and I continued to where they were.

MR SWANEPOEL: And when you arrived there were they still busy raping the girls?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: Yes they were?

MR SWANEPOEL: And who was that?

CHAIRPERSON: Is that relevant?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: Mdmase and Mafi.

CHAIRPERSON: There's no application for amnesty against rape.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairperson, this is one of those difficult situations which is not strictly relevant to the amnesty application but relevant to reconciliation and knowing the truth.  Now Mrs Doris Sambo was fairly emotional when she described her ordeal and she specifically cannot remember everything because of the wounds that she received in the ordeal.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) and that?

MR SWANEPOEL: Ja, my specific instructions from her is also, amongst others, to find out what happened to her sister because she passed out after she was shot and she woke up in hospital.  She does not know whether her sister is dead or alive.  That's her first objective and also to find out who did this to them.  This is very important for her and she's very emotional about it.  We sat here till yesterday evening fairly late and it was very difficult to calm her down.

CHAIRPERSON: Well strictly speaking, the reconciliation part of the issue is not the paramount leg of the Amnesty Committee's job, that would have been done in another Committee but I'm going to allow it now seeing as we're busy with a very emotional issue.  But I'd appreciate it if we curtail it in terms of details, I mean the fact that a particular person committed rape on a victim is not going to effect the outcome of this application.  So to the extent that it may reconcile two people, I'm going to allow it but I'm going to ask you to cut out most of the details please.

MR SWANEPOEL: I appreciate it.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Swanepoel, if he himself was in some way involved in the rape or he stood by and sort of condoned it, then it may reflect on his motivation or his situation or his malice in dealing with the person.  I don't know whether other persons applied for amnesty and whether those applying for amnesty might have been the rapists, so I think it's the only witness perhaps you could get this information from in order to oppose other applications if they've applied, I don't know whether they've applied or not applied and to that extent it may be relevant but only for that purpose.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Commissioner, that is exactly the line of cross-examination and the purpose of it, I simply wanted names in order to properly evaluate any other applications that might come before and if there are no applications in order to let Mrs Sambo consider her options from there.  As you please Mr Chairman.
	Sorry, Mr Nyete, I didn't catch those names.  You arrived at the place where the sisters were being held and you saw who raped them.  Could you tell us the names again?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: It was Mdmase and Mavi.

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you for the indulgence Mr Chairperson.
	Alright, now you mentioned that you shot at the comrades and then you shot Sibongele in the process.  Do you recall where you shot her?  Was it one shot?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean where in her body?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: When I arrived there, I took my gun and I shot and I missed.  The second shot, Sibongele's sister got shot, she was closer to me and then the third one I shot Sibongele.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is where in Doris's body would she have been hit.  Wouldn't Doris be able to tell you that Mr Swanepoel?

MR SWANEPOEL: She did indeed tell me, I just want to compare Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You see when we spoke yesterday, I mean the applicant is admitting that he shot.  Does it matter whether it was in the toe or the foot?

MR SWANEPOEL: I understand Mr Chairman, I'll leave that line of questioning.
	Mr Nyethe, Mrs Sambo tells us that her sister was shot once in the back of the head.  Do you recall who did that?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: What I can remember is that I shot her on her chest.  Properly Mdmase, when I told him to finish the job, probably he shot her at the head but I shot her in her chest.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was that now, was that Doris or the deceased who was shot in the chest?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: Doris.

CHAIRPERSON: You shot - Doris was hit - Doris was the sister?  Sibongele's sister?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you shot towards her chest?  Correct?

JABU JACOB NYETHE: Yes that is correct.