Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-28

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, as I defined the political objective of the process, I went deeper Sir, to the circumstances which has compelled me.  The circumstances basically on the basis that I've indicated of the element of insecurity experienced by people and I did actually make mention in the statement that in my capacity as the commander to protect the aspirations of those within my ability, those that their lives are threatened, they're secured - insecure.  This is actually the basis of my departure regarding my political views of the whole process which in turn actually compelled me for this type of act.
	At that stage now directed towards the Bop Government which in terms of it's acts of repression at that stage, was clear that the rule of iron hand and open brutality was a very clear exercise resulting in the popularly know activity of Mkaba assaulted at the University of Bophuthatswana and a number of others ...[indistinct] in a protest march.  They were also - the march was instructed - ended up in a very bitter thing, that was the basis of my motivation.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Perhaps I need to put my question - the same question differently, to get the answer from you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: By doing what you did, did you intend to attain any political result?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes, Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, what is that political result you intended attaining by doing what you did?

LAURENS MBATHA: To those people Sir, that I've referred to - the type of act, will be to reinstate and reconfirm the presence of MK within their mists and that they are not alone in the struggle at that particular point in time - that is the point.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Then I'm getting a little bit confused now Major.  Are you saying by doing what you did, you wanted to attain the recognition of the MK?

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, not ...[intervention]

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You attacked - if I may use the word attack?

LAURENS MBATHA: Not recognition as such as one should define it because the recognition of Umkhonto weSizwe has been there for a very long time but within the particular area itself, activities of Umkhonto weSizwe regarding the process of this struggle, were less experienced and less known - that is in the particular area that I'm referring to but in terms of it's recognition alone in the area it has been known.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Well, will I be right if I say what you're trying to outline to us is the - you wanted to attain the free political activity of the MK in that region?

LAURENS MBATHA: The activity Sir, has been free.  Hence I've referred that we've been operating jointly with the mass democratic movement structures in the present - in this Province.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Major, finally on this very same aspect, did you hope to achieve any change in the then existing political climate?

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, as I've said, the act itself was directed as a signal to the Bop Government and as I did indicate yesterday to say that at that stage and escalation that it assumes, that their days actually they should know are numbered.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You know, if you say you give a signal to a person, it is even correct ...[indistinct] to say I'm giving this person a warning for him either to stop doing what he is doing, do I understand you correctly?

LAURENS MBATHA: You are correct, Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now what is it that the Bop Government was doing to which you had to give them a warning or a signal.

LAURENS MBATHA: The open brutality that they were exercising Sir, within Bophuthatswana because the greater parts of those areas starting from the ...[indistinct] Kuruman up, they were part of the Northern Cape by that time, including Mafeking.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Will I be correct Major to say that all what you intended achieving was to stop the brutality or the torture or the assaults within that region, will I be correct?

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And not necessarily to stop the political conditions in that region, will I still be correct?

LAURENS MBATHA: Yes, Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You see, to be fair to you I'm asking these questions because the question of political achievement to be - the political objective sought to be achieved is not being inclined by yourself and that is one of the requirements of being given amnesty.  Now, if you say the intention was to make them desist or stop from the brutality in their region and not to stop them in their political activities, then I'm having a problem.

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, if I might respond to - the brutality that one was actually referring to, was basically directed towards ANC members in the Province because in that type of Government if you're identified with that kind of political organisation, then life in it was miserable.  So, I'm sorry that I should have actually have disassociated it separately but it was in that context because the brutality was influenced by that particular factor.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now Major, for the Committee and perhaps even for yourself, according to the criminal trial the march was said to have been a very peaceful march and orderly up till the stage when the hand grenade was thrown.  Do you think it was really in keeping with the circumstances of the march or the occurrence then, to use a hand grenade in order to achieve your political objective?

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, it is unfortunate at this stage I don't have actually at my disposal the memorandums which were said there.  I made mention yesterday as an anti-Bop march but through my recollection, part of the submissions that were made there had to do with the brutal activity of the police in the previous marches.  Hence amongst those memorandums, one was directed towards it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What I'm trying to say to you is, a hand grenade in one hand - an object capable of causing death, destruction and maiming people, as against a peaceful orderly march.  Don't you think this was not in keeping with the circumstances there?

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, it is regrettable of the results but the grenade was not actually for the march but for the building itself but it in turn resulted that the marchers ended being victims of it - that part actually, it is really regrettable.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, members of the Committee, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

ADV DE JAGER: If that was the position - your last answer being the hand grenade wasn't intended, why didn't you throw the hand grenade when the marchers weren't there, why at the time of the march?   Why not one night for instance?

LAURENS MBATHA: Sir, with - because it will me back again to my instruction.  I see actually the oversight, hence within my instruction it was when the marchers move away the grenade should be thrown in.

ADV DE JAGER: If it was only directed at the building, why didn't you go for instance on a Sunday night when there was nobody in the building, no workers in the building or a Saturday night or when you know there's no workers and throw the hand grenade at the building?

LAURENS MBATHA: At that time my perception was it was going to lose really a political element - this is how I perceived it that time.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was it Mr Mbatha, not your intention to injure the personnel of the Bophuthatswana Government who were housed in that building?

LAURENS MBATHA: No, Madam.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now, if you had ran - launched your attack after hours, how would that action have lost a political meaning?  How would your attack have lost a political meaning if it had been committed after hours?

LAURENS MBATHA: I only regarded at that time Madam, that attack to the building - what those activities not part of it, would be classified in whatever direction that one would like to because for me it ...[indistinct] no political but just a mere criminal act of a crazy person who did that thing.