Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-21

MR MBAMBO: Within the IFP I know I am regarded as an enemy and right now as I am speaking here I know that they are very angry with me but I also know that there are certain leaders within the IFP whose names I have implicated here.  They are angry as well that the IFP has abandoned us now after having done so much for their organisation.
	I am saying this with the knowledge that within the IFP leadership at the moment there is a division.  They do not seem to see things the same way because there are leaders such as Doctor Ben Mgubane, Doctor Frank Mjolse, Doctor Ziba Djiane, who are diplomats, people who are apposed to violence and people who did not know anything about this operation.  
	But there were also warlords, Chief Mataba and others who knew about these covert operations and right now they are busy with Doctor Frank Mjolse to try and build up this movement whereas others were undermining the movement and that creates a conflict and because of that I know there is a division.  Some will definitely receive warm heatedly.  I am therefore not(?) prepared to go back.  My  intention is to reconcile the ANC and the IFP.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Mbambo.  Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Sorry could you just keep quiet please.  Mrs Khampepe, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mbambo, you have testified that some time in 1992 you were given orders by Mrs Mbuaze to train a large number of young persons with a view of enabling them to engage in veracious attacks on ANC members and ANC areas.  My question is, to your knowledge then as a member, as an ordinary member of your hit squad, did you think that the local leadership had authority to give you such orders?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why did you think that they had such authority?  Can you explain to us?

MR MBAMBO: The local leadership had authority to all the hit squad members based here at eSikhawini because we were working under them and they were the ones who knew everybody who were enemies within the ANC and therefore we would not have followed the instructions following the leadership's wishes.  What information they gathered about the ANC in eSikhawini and the surrounding areas was received from the local leadership so that they received this information knowing that it comes directly from this leadership.  The BSI itself used this information from the same leadership therefore they had, yes indeed, authority to give us such instructions.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But I thought in the evidence led by your commander, Mr Mkhize and also the Commander in Chief of the paramilitary wing of the IFP, the authority that both the local leadership and the national leadership which we have been referring to here as the hierarchy of the IFP, the authority which they had was to identify specific targets for elimination as well as giving you instructions to engage in indiscriminate attacks on ANC people but not to train a group of young persons with a view of attacking other people.

MR MBAMBO: They had such authority.  For example, even though they were leaders at the local level, people such as Mr Mbuaze who was a member of the Central Committee of the IFP, that was a very big structure within the IFP and within the national, at the national level.
	She was not only a leader at the local level but she was also a leader nationally because she was a member of the Central Committee of the IFP and we also have Chief Matabe and Mr Suba Buthelezi.  They were members of the KwaZulu Legislature, that gave them the authority to be provincial leaders in all these areas referred to and by so doing they featured within the hierarchy at Ulundi, they did not end up at the local level. 
	And you also had others such as ...[indistinct] the Councillors and G M Mkhize, Bebe Biela whom I can refer to as having had a limited authority at local level.

SISI KHAMPEPE: This group of young persons that you trained, what were the average ages of such children, if they were children?  They've been referred to as youths.

MR MBAMBO: None of them except for Mbambo from Port Dunford, he was older than ourselves but the rest of them, Habit Sithole was also older, they rages between 18, 16 and 20 years.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And Mr Siabonga Mbuaze, how old was he?

MR MBAMBO: He was - according to my knowledge, he was above 21 but his age was restricted.  He would restrict himself to 16 and 18 so that he remained a minor in the event of his arrest.  He would use ages such as 16 because he had this small body structure.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And was he the eldest of the Mbuaze brothers?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Hewit has questioned you extensively with regard to the circumstances under which Sergeant Dlamini was killed and I would like to invite your comment on the reason which was advanced by Mr X during your criminal trial, if you recall that Mr X gave evidence and advanced a reason which is different from the one that you've testified to during these proceedings.  I think it appears on page 22, paginated page 22 of the documents bundle.  And the reason that he advanced was that you stated that you were tired of Sergeant Dlamini and that's why he should be killed.  May I invite your comment on the reason which was stated by Mr X?

MR MBAMBO: I cannot remember whether I said that or not.

SISI KHAMPEPE: No, that was not said by you, that reason was advanced by Mr X at your criminal ...[end of tape]

MR WILLS: ...[inaudible] permission.  This person's name has been disclosed at this hearing, possibly we could use that name, it might refresh.  Yes, that is, I think his name is Sergeant Mtetwa, Constable Mtetwa.

SISI KHAMPEPE: That's right.  I think it's a Constable Mr Wills, not Sergeant.
	Mr Mbambo, you will recall that he was also part of the group which participated in the elimination of Sergeant Dlamini and this is the reason that he advanced to the Court for his elimination.

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.  Yes, we were together but I did not say that I was tired of Sergeant Dlamini.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was Sergeant Mtetwa then not telling the truth when he stated that that's what, these are the words that you uttered?

MR MBAMBO: He was not telling the truth, he was trying to run away from the fact that he was a member of the hit squad and that he was present out of his own will.  And he indicated that he was forced by Nagam Mkhize to accompany us.

SISI KHAMPEPE: No, in your evidence you've stated that there was an occasion when you gave instructions for certain operations to be committed whilst Mr Mkhize was away, I think he was in Dundee on sick leave.

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct, I did explain that operation.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you given permission by Mr Mkhize to give such instructions for the conduct of those operations since you were not the commander, that he had been appointed as the commander?

MR MBAMBO: I did not issue any instruction myself as commander but you will remember that Mr Xele who was working at Ulundi, he would often during weekends he would bring this white Mitsubishi, a minibus from Chief Minister's office, to use it on attacking the ANC.  Even though Ginam was not there, that did not stop, it continued happening.  That is what I was trying to explain.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you are in other words saying that that was the standing practice of your operation, that's how you operated and there was nothing new that you had put into effect by proceeding with the operations when the kombi was brought to you?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.