Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-09

INTERPRETER: Mr Lekabe the Advocate is asking you this, you had a problem with the SDU but between the two of you were some arguments that your group will patrol at a certain time and the SDU will patrol at a certain time?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: My lord I'm explaining that it was already during the conflicts between the ANC Youth League and the SDU.

INTERPRETER: The question still remains did you agree?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Yes that's correct.  We did.

MR MADASA: Now, Oscar Motlokwa denies that he tried to shoot at Zulu as you testified - Zulu - remember you said Oscar tried to shoot Zulu?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: He is just denying it.  Ali Zulu is the first person he shot at in Block A.

MR MADASA: Is that a person that he shot at four times?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I explained that he shot him at the chest six times.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened to him?  Did he die there?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: We left him lying there in Block A.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he die?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Yes he was already dead when we left him.

MR MADASA: Now you remember you said there were members of the community who were armed when you went to Blanko.  Who were those people who were armed?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I explained already that members of the community were present but I did not specifically look at them.  They were there though.

MR MADASA: So you don't know their identity?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I do not know their identity.

MR MADASA: How were they armed, what did they carry?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Some had guns, some had different assortment of weapons.

MR MADASA: Do you know from which area they came from in Mololeke?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: They came from Block A, I explained already, Block A, Block B, Block C.

MR MADASA: But you did not know them?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Yes, I do not know them.

MR MADASA: Who burned the place of Blanko?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I do not know because after the shootout I left, I don't know those who left behind among them who burned the house.

MR MADASA: Do you perceive yourself as guilty of the killing of Blanko?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Can you please elaborate your question?

MR MADASA: Do you think you were involved in the killing of Blanko?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I do not think I have a contribution - I do have a contribution towards his death.

MR MADASA: What contribution did you make?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa, is this relevant to the question whether or not there is full disclosure by the applicants or whether what the applicants did, did with political motivation?

MR MADASA: Mr Chair, I'm testing his credibility.

CHAIRPERSON: Testing his credibility by what he admits he was part of the gathering of people that decided to go and round up the persons who were believed to be armed and that he was part of a group of Youth League members and some members of the community that went to Blanko's place but he was not armed, he has told us, nor were any members of the Youth League armed.  That's what he says.

MR MADASA: But Mr Chair he has not told us what he did there.

CHAIRPERSON: He is not applying for Amnesty.

MR MADASA: I know Mr Chair.  Should I withdraw the question?  I just want to find out from him.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the relevance of that to the issues that are before us?  He is not applying for amnesty or is it being alleged by the applicant that he did something?

MR MADASA: It is alleged that he was seen by Oscar at Blanko, he is one of the people who killed Blanko.

CHAIRPERSON: Then put that to him.

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.  Oscar Motlokwa, when he gave evidence, he said as a neighbour of Blanko, he saw you there, you are one of the people who killed Blanko.  What do you say to that?  Is that true or false, short answer, is that true or false?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is true.

MR MADASA: But you have just denied involvement?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Where did I refuse my involvement because your question was did I think, your question was "do you think" and I don't think - I am certain that I had a contribution.

MR MALAN: Mr Madasa correctly then Oscar gave evidence that he indeed saw ...[indistinct] at the meeting.  I think he also referred to him carrying a weapon at the time but he did not say that he saw him shooting or killing Blanko.  Is there really a relevance which could take it further by us establishing whether he did shoot at Blanko or not?

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Committee Member, Oscar says...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you get to that, Oscar alleges that he saw you at Blanko's place and that you were carrying an AK-47, what do you say to that?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: He saw me shooting, I did not have a gun when we arrived, I took that gun from one of the members of the community.

CHAIRPERSON: So at Blanko's place you were present and you had an AK-47?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I did not carry an AK-47 but when I shot, I took it from one member of the community, I shot and then I returned it.

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chair I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MADASA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma do you have any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, one or two.
	When you disagreed with Manyala's march against the release of the ANC Youth League members you had no mandate from the community?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Did you have a mandate from the ANC Youth League?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Elaborate your question, which mandate are you referring to the mandate for the march or?

MR MAPOMA: It's the mandate for the march, did Manyala have the mandate from the ANC Youth League now for the march?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is not correct because people did not expect that march.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.  Thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Mr Sibanyoni do you have any questions?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Lekabe, let me begin at the end of your evidence, you said you took the AK-47 from one member, you shot and you returned it back, if I understand you correctly?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: And whom did you shoot?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I shot Blanko.

MR SIBANYONI: Let us go a little bit backwards.  You said Oscar killed Ali Zulu, that he was the first person he killed?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Right, let me just try to find out from you.  These applicants when they come here to apply for amnesty they talk about everything they did, in other words they disclose everything they did.  Now I'm saying to you if really he killed Ali Zulu, he would mention him as well?  What do you say about that?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: On Friday I said that what they are saying here it's a pure lie.

MR SIBANYONI: When you left at the meeting remember when you said you are asking for transport, you want to go and find assistance and then that's how you escaped?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: At that stage you realised that the tension was bad at Mololeke because you are saying these were armed and they've captured some of the members of the ANC Youth League?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: If you could just not move too close to the mike please.  Now why didn't you at that stage go and report to the either the ISU or to the police realising the seriousness of the situation?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I think I have alluded to the fact that the situation in Katlehong was to such an extent that co-operation was not possible between the police and the community so it was my duty to inform the bigger organisation which is SANCO or rather the Civic.