Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-10

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Strydom?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: (still under oath)

MR STRYDOM: (continued)   	Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Nosenga, you testified last week that you fired many shots, what happened to the cartridges of the bullets that were fired?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know sir.

MR STRYDOM: So these cartridges must have stayed behind on the various scenes?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: The following day, that is the day after the attack, after you got up during the course of the morning, was there any trouble that you can remember or any threats or any strange thing that happened?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Would you please repeat the question?

MR STRYDOM: On the day after the attack, during the course of the morning at the hostel, was there any threats from any one for instance people that wanted to attack the hostel or things like that, that you can remember?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't remember.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you that evidence was led already by the applicants that the following morning there was a threatening attack from people from Boipatong on the hostel and the hostel dwellers went out and before the parties could meet more or less in the vicinity of the robots, the Police sent the people from kwaMadala back and sent the people from Boipatong back?  So you have no knowledge of that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know anything about that.

MR STRYDOM: On that following day, could you leave the hostel at any time if you wanted to?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR STRYDOM: Why not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was afraid of going to the township or going to town.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but apart from being afraid, if you wanted to, could you leave the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.  I did say earlier on that I was afraid because these people were abducting us.

MR STRYDOM: On the 19th of June 1992, that is two days after the attack, could you leave the hostel if you wanted to?  Apart from being afraid, say for instance you were not afraid, could you walk out of the hostel if you wanted to?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Would you please repeat the question leaving the hostel going to town or to the township?

CHAIRPERSON: The question is if you had wanted to leave the hostel, apart from being afraid of the people who might kidnap you, could you go out of the hostel and go anywhere?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I maintained that I was not able to walk freely.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you afraid of?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was afraid of the people of the Vaal.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the only reason why you couldn't leave the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is the reason.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see the Police arriving at some stage after the attack, at the hostel, that is on the days following the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I say I did not see them inside the hostel, I said I saw them outside the hostel, I did say that.  I did say that at the beginning of my statement.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember when you saw the Police outside the hostel for the first time?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: On the 18th, if I still remember very well, they were outside the hostel.  I saw them on the 18th, outside the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember approximately what time of the day did you see them for the first time outside the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I cannot recall.

MR STRYDOM: After the Police arrived, could you still go outside the hostel if you wanted to?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I would not.  I have already stated that I would not be able to leave the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Were you - let me ask you this, did you see if the Police searched the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did even though I cannot say exactly when.  They came into the hostel at night, they came in to search and some people were arrested.

MR STRYDOM: On the next day, the day after the attack now, was ntelezi used again?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Ntelezi was used on the 17th, in the evening, when we came back from Boipatong, we used it, not on the 18th.

MR STRYDOM: And according to you, on the 18th, was there any singing and dancing or anything of the kind in the hostel by the hostel dwellers?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, that happened on the 17th, in the evening.

MR STRYDOM: Am I correct in saying that according to you, on the 18th nothing extraordinary happened, it was just an ordinary day in the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, except that Themba Khosa came.  I am saying the one person who came on that day was Mr Themba Khosa, he came to fetch the firearm.  I cannot remember anything happening that day.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you that there was towards the afternoon after four o'clock, there was some sort of dance and ntelezi was used and the people sang songs, do you remember that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I don't know about that, I don't know anything.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you that a video tape was made by the Police on the 18th, did you see that, filming the people of the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Maybe it happened, but I saw the Police outside the premises of the hostel, I cannot dispute that, but I am saying I saw the Police outside the premises of the hostel on that day.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you if one looks at that video, it is clear that there was singing, some sort of dancing and ntelezi was thrown over the singing people, but you didn't see that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know anything about that.  I only know of the meeting of the 17th, when we came back to the hostel.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, could I just intervene at this stage.  We believe that there was such a video and it was an Exhibit in the criminal trial, and we have been trying to get hold of that, we were told that the Exhibits have all been lost, I don't know if my learned friend has recovered that video, and if so, we would like to see it.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Nosenga, to end off, I just want to put to you that you were not in the hostel during the attack and some time after the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I was at the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson, I haven't got further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Who is the next person?

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, my name is Riaan du Plessis, I am standing in on behalf of Adv Hannes Botha, I will take the cross-examination of the witness, if it pleases the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: On behalf of who?

MR DU PLESSIS: I am acting on behalf of Pedro Peens, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LAX: Mr Du Plessis, sorry, I didn't catch your initials?

MR DU PLESSIS: R du Plessis, Mr Lax.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Du Plessis?

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Nosenga, when first did you meet Mr Peens?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did say that it was before I went to the hostel.  He once arrested me for a car offence.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is when did you meet Mr Peens for the first time?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He arrested me for the first time  ...

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know when that was?  When?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was arrested in Vereeniging.

MR LAX: What year, what month, do you remember?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot remember sir.

MR DU PLESSIS: Can you tell us what happened when Mr Peens arrested you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying Peens arrested me and he took me to Frogadien, Frogadien I am not sure if the word is correctly pronounced, in Vanderbijlpark.

MR DU PLESSIS: This place, is it an office, can you just tell us what kind of building this would be?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know, it looks like it is a place that they used to use for assaulting and torturing people.

MR DU PLESSIS: Were you assaulted during interrogation by Mr Peens?