Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-14

JUDGE NGCOBO: Do you know Mr Zuma? Did you know Mr Zuma then?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: No Honourable Committee member.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Yes thank you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Singaram my question is only limited to the confession you made yesterday. That you might have fired more shots than was necessary. Do you understand that?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I do Honourable Committee member.

SISI KHAMPEPE: We have already a testimony that the shooting to repel the attack took approximately 10 seconds and that for your part you fired only 3 shots. My question is when you were nudged out of position by the other security personnel was shooting still continuing?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: That was so.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Before you were nudged out of position did you hear Mr Kruser give an order to cease fire?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Honourable Committee member I was already in the foyer of the building.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Singaram.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you are excused Mr Singaram

WITNESS IS: .

MR TIPP: Chairperson if I could just be precise as far as exhibits are concerned. I mentioned that all the guns were handed in and none were linked but I should just mention that 6 of the AK47 doppies, there was evidence that 16 AK47 doppies were picked up by the police shortly after the incident. 6 of those AK47 doppies were linked ballistically to the AK47 that was used by Mr Molefe, the next applicant who is going to give evidence. There were 2 AK47's used on the day. One by Mr Molefe, one by Mr Khumalo and the one that was used by Mr Molefe was linked ballistically to 6 doppies that were found on the scene. It was not linked to any of the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR TIPP: Thank you.

MS MORAKA: The next applicant is Mr Modise Molefe. Chairperson, Mr Molefe is Sotho speaking. He is going to testify in English but if he does have difficulties we would seek the assistance of an interpreter.

CHAIRPERSON: Quite alright. Mr Molefe are you prepared to take the oath? Will you please stand.

MODISE MOLEFE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may be seated.

MS MORAKA: Mr Molefe shall we start with your personal details. Is it correct that you were born in Soweto on the 24th of October 1959?

MODISE MOLEFE: That is correct Your Honour.

MS MORAKA: What is your highest standard of education?

MODISE MOLEFE: I have got only standard 9.

MS MORAKA: In 1976 you went into exile?

MODISE MOLEFE: That is correct.

MS MORAKA: Can you tell the Committee why?

MODISE MOLEFE: I went to exile because of many reasons. One I am coming from a family of 10 being 5 girls, 5 boys and the house we were staying in, it was congested. Secondly the house was too small, we never had electricity, our streets were dusty, that is the roads of Soweto and above all we were poor. And after the Soweto uprising which I realised that there is no sense of morality from the previous government mauling children, women, fathers that today some of them are orphans, widows and widowers. There was no sense of morality from the previous government to shoot unarmed school children who had no right even in the constitution of the previous government. Who had no right to make a simple thing like a vote. The constitution which was defending the olden white minority rule in the previous government. And above all what made me to go to exile is the massacre of unarmed people especially the child, Hector Petersen. I thank you.

MS MORAKA: Can you tell the Committee when you joined the ANC?

MODISE MOLEFE: I joined the ANC in 1976.

MS MORAKA: Did you then undertake any training outside? Any military training?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes I did take a military training in various parts of the world. Countries which were then sympathetic to the African National Congress. One being Angola, Russia, East Germany, Tanzania and many others.

MS MORAKA: Can you give an extent of your training and the rank that you eventually obtained?

MODISE MOLEFE: Well I started being a section Commander and as the time goes on I was promoted to a platoon Commander, company Commander. And I happened to be one of the senior Commander of uMkhonto weSizwe which was quite influential in terms of preparing the programme of training other people who were coming from the country.

MS MORAKA: Is it correct that at one stage then you came back into South Africa and you were arrested?

MODISE MOLEFE: Yes I was arrested. Your Worship I was arrested in 1983. And then I stayed in detention almost 6 months in solitary confinement. I was tortured brutally for that matter by the white racists of the previous government. I was ill-treated with some of those marks still lingers in my head. By them I do not say I still have a grudge upon them. I went to trial Pretoria which took almost a year uncompromised and I was sentenced to 15 years on Robben Island.

MS MORAKA: When were you released from Robben Island?

MODISE MOLEFE: I was released on Robben Island in 1991 when the negotiation started between Mandela and de Klerk. And my release was part of a package that we should be released in 1991.

MS MORAKA: What then did you do between the period of 1991 and 1994 in terms of employment or further education or further training?

MODISE MOLEFE: After my release I went to Egypt and study diplomacy and protocol. I came back I went to Vistec and study personnel management.

MS MORAKA: Mr Molefe I now want to draw your attention to your application for amnesty with your accompanying affidavit and your supplementary affidavit. They are in bundle C from page 55 to page 65 g. I think it is bundle C Chairperson, page 55 to 65. Is it correct that you have signed the application and the accompanying affidavit?

MODISE MOLEFE: That is correct.

MS MORAKA: And you confirm the contents of the application and the affidavit?

MODISE MOLEFE: That is correct.

MS MORAKA: Can you tell the Court, I draw attention to your statement which is on page 62. You say you arrived at work - Maybe let us start by, you were employed by the ANC, is that correct? Sorry on the 28th of March 1994.

MODISE MOLEFE: That is correct.

MS MORAKA: As what were you employed?

MODISE MOLEFE: I was employed in the Department of Intelligence and Security. I was working in the personnel department and my duties were by then to recruit, to employ, to deploy people in various sectors; security, intelligence, counter intelligence and processing.

MS MORAKA: You mention in paragraph 4 of your affidavit that over the weekend of the 26th and 27th of March you received, you heard that there was going to be an IFP march. From whom did you hear this?

MODISE MOLEFE: I heard this information from a senior member of this by then who was a member of the national directorate by the name of Leonard Gatunaba, who happened to be one of my friends. And as I visited his house and he used to visit me as friends, comrades and colleagues and he shared this information to me and said there is a possibility of attack towards Shell House. And I raised the eye brows; "Who is going to attack the Shell House?" And I said: "Members of the IFP are going to attack Shell House."

MS MORAKA: You mean he said that, not you?

MODISE MOLEFE: Not me, that was information that I received from him.

MS MORAKA: On the 28th of March you then arrived at work at approximately seven thirty?

MODISE MOLEFE: That is correct.

MS MORAKA: Can you tell the Committee about your movements when you arrived at work? What then did you do?