Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-18

MR DILIZO: Would that also invariably mean the death of Batandwa Ndondo? In other words (...intervention)

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I include that also.

MR DILIZO: Then when you appeared at Umtata Supreme Court were you remanded into custody or you were released?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I was never detained.

MR DILIZO: You never paid any bail?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No.

MR DILIZO: Nor were you ever detained for the death of Batandwa?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No.

MR DILIZO: Would you say the reason it was because of the cover-ups that were perpetrated by your superiors or not?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I can say as far as I know it was not a bad thing to them they did not see any brutality or such.

MR DILIZO: So meaning they approved of your actions concerning the death of Batandwa?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I agree.

MR DILIZO: Because there was no disciplinary action having been taken against you amongst other things?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes nothing happened.

MR DILIZO: So Shabalala I put it to you that however honest you might be it is possible that you have been betrayed here and there by your memory in remembering and narrating the events which occurred on that particular day. What would you say to that?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Please repeat the question?

MR DILIZO: I am saying Mr Shabalala despite how honest you might have been in trying to remember the events of the date in question and how accurate you might have intended to be with your narration of the events but it is still possible that you were innocently betrayed by your own memory in the narration of the events.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Correct.

MR DILIZO: And finally (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree with what counsel has put to you namely that it may well be that in relating the events to this Committee you may have made a mistake?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No.

MR DILIZO: By saying no what do you mean Mr Shabalala?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: As I have come here I came here to give a true story of what happened as it was.

MR DILIZO: But Mr Shabalala you have made some mistakes on your statement how much more about the oral evidence you are giving and being asked questions impromptu. Can't you make a mistake too? An innocent one?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I don't think I will make a mistake.

MR DILIZO: Despite that you have made it in your written statement? Is that what you are saying?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It may happen but I don't think it will be as easy as that.

MR DILIZO: Finally, Mr Shabalala the cover-ups that is as they were perpetrated by your superiors and also reduced to writing in statements as well seen on the bundle could that not also have an effect in confusing your memory in trying to reconstruct the events in the proper perspective?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I would not know about cover-ups because they are very far off from me. I can only tell about what I know. Whatever was a cover-up and was hidden I would not know about.

MR DILIZO: So I take it that you were not a party of any cover-ups which were intended to be introduced if any you could only find them having been introduced without knowing the author?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I was not part of any cover-ups.

MR DILIZO: So in other words plainly you agree with me that you were not a party and you would not have been consulted about them before they would be introduced in this Batandwa issue case?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I agree.

MR DILIZO: Thank you Mr Chairman no more questions.

MR DILIZO: .

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Dilizo. Yes Mr Dukada?

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shabalala may I ask you a question which is very obvious. It is very clear that you seriously made amnesty. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Correct.

MR DUKADA: And you find it is your duty to disclose the truth to this Committee in order to get amnesty?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I agree.

MR DUKADA: And you know the risk of not disclosing the truth in this Committee?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I know very well.

MR DUKADA: In other words if you are refused amnesty the Attorney General may charge you with the murder of Batandwa Ndondo.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I know.

MR DUKADA: I just want to start from just the end of your evidence in chief briefly and then I will come back and around the sequence of your evidence. How much salary were you earning in 1985?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: 1300 about there.

MR DUKADA: Was it a nett or a gross?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It was before any subtractions could be made.

MR DUKADA: Yes then after deductions have been made how much were you left to take home?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I would be left with R800.

MR DUKADA: Is my assumption correct that during 1985 you were a married with dependants?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: That is correct.

MR DUKADA: And how many children did you have?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Two.

MR DUKADA: And you had a duty to provide maintenance to them?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes it was my duty.

MR DUKADA: And I also assume that they were schooling and money was needed for school fees?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Correct that is so.

MR DUKADA: And no doubt Mr Shabalala an amount of R800 was far low to cater for such expenses?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes but I tried my best.

MR DUKADA: But you agree with me that you needed more money to shoulder that responsibility?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Yes I needed more money that is true.

MR DUKADA: Desperately? You needed the money desperately?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Not to the point where I would be forced to do whatever I did try to do by selling some things.

MR DUKADA: Now you have already indicated in your evidence that if you had captured an ANC or PAC cadre with weapons you will be rewarded by a sum of money and if you have killed you would also be rewarded the amount would vary. Is that correct?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: Correct.

MR DUKADA: So do you agree with me that if you had not killed Batandwa Ndondo on the 24th of September 1985 you would have received nothing?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It was not money that I aimed for but we used to get an allowance when we went out on duty outside of the area or usual working area.

MR DUKADA: That is not my question Sir. My question to you is that do you agree with me that if you had not killed Batandwa Ndondo on the 24th of September 1985 you would have received nothing?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No I would not have got that money.

MR DUKADA: So it was your wish that in your operation to Nxala you should get something?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I can say when we go out into the country we used to get an allowance just for going out of the country. Besides hitting some one or getting something but we used to get money besides our salary.

MR DUKADA: Yes but what I am saying to you is that in your operation to Nxala on the 24th September 1985 you expected to get something in addition to your salary?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: It may have happened yes.

MR DUKADA: And surely you would have been a very unhappy man to go to Nxala come back without having seized any weapons without having killed Batandwa. Do you agree with me?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: No.

MR DUKADA: I don't understand the answer no. Can I repeat the question to you. The question to you is that you would have been a very unhappy man to come back from Nxala knowing that you would receive nothing?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR DUKADA: Sorry I am just trying to ask did you understand? What do you mean by no Mr Shabalala?

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: What I mean if I ever had gone out and not found anything I would not have felt unhappy. Even if anything has happened or not I would not be happy or not. I would not be disappointed. I would just go on working.

MR DUKADA: But as I indicated to you earlier on you will be more happier to get something than getting nothing.

MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA: I did say no.