Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is not so, they were already there.  Had we had a meeting with them before, it would have been another issue, we did not, we find them already at that spot.

MR SHEZI: The taking up of positions which is referred to in your statement was part of the plan that you were about to start shooting?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: It was not.    If it was our plan, they would not start by shooting.

MR SHEZI: The decision to tell Shosha to call out some of the members, was because you were about to start and you did not want to shoot with your members inside?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is not correct Chairperson.

MR SHEZI: Thank you Mr Chairman, that will be all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHEZI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Shezi.  Ms Patel, any questions?

MS PATEL: Just clarity Honourable Chairperson.  Mr Radebe, do you know that two of the deceased were shot and killed, were shot in the back and died as a result of those bullet wounds?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I do not know that chairperson, I only heard that people died.

MS PATEL: And the police officer who had arrived on the scene, Mr van Rooyen, had described the position of the bodies, the positions in which he found the bodies at the scene and he states that the one person was found halfway under the bed and the other person was laying on the bed, on his stomach?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I did not get into the house after the shooting, I did not get into the house to check.

MS PATEL: And he also states further that two bodies were found laying next to each other at the entrance near the door, with their heads facing the door?  It would appear as if they were trying to get out at least, not so?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I do not know, I mentioned that after the shooting we left, I did not check.  I am now talking on my behalf, I do not know what happened.  I told them "let's go and report."

MS PATEL: None of your members went into the house to shoot, not so?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: We all left.  I would not disagree with that, but all of us withdrew and all of us told each other that our magazines were empty.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we hear that but the question is did some of your people go into the house and shot, fired shots inside the house?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Okay, and the only shot that came from inside of the house, was the one shot you heard, not so?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Yes, that is the bullet that led us to returning fire.

MS PATEL: You cannot dispute that at least 20 spent cartridges were found inside the house?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: I would not disagree with you, I do not know how many cartridges were found.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Patel.   Does the panel have any questions?

MR SIBANYONI: I've got no questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Hugo, have you got anything else?

MR HUGO: Yes, thank you  Mr Chairperson.  Mr Radebe, did any of the policemen and or the askaris fire shots from within the shack?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: No policemen, no askari, shot from inside the shack.

MR HUGO: Did you, before the other two or three were also asked to come out of the shack, were you suspicious at that stage that the occupants inside the shack, might be armed?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: After they directed us to a wrong house, we suspected that they were armed or there were other comrades nearby.

MR HUGO: Is that one of the reasons why it ...

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Why it was arranged for these three to also get out of the house or the shack?

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hugo.  Mr Radebe, thank you very much, you are excused.

MAGOPA SIMON RADEBE: Thank you Chair.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We have come to the end of the day.  Mr Hugo, have you got any other witnesses that you intend to call?

MR HUGO: I don't have any further witnesses Mr Chairman.  May I also ask to be excused from tomorrow onwards if it is at all possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  Mr Radebe, you are excused, that thing seems to have a negative effect on you?   We suspect that there isn't very much left in this matter, so we would like to finish it off as quickly as we can, we would ask your co-operation if we can start the proceedings slightly earlier tomorrow than we have been starting up to now.   For that reason, we would adjourn the proceedings and reconvene here tomorrow morning at nine o'clock and hopefully get through with the proceedings at a decent hour.  We are adjourned.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS