Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-05

MR WILLIAMS: My Lord, yes, I have an opportunity to speak with the families about the matter and they feel quite strongly that if Ms Khampepe is also not here, that  they would prefer to have at least a quorum when the evidence is heard.  Those are my instructions on the matter.  I have not had an opportunity to convey that to you.  I was under the impression that Ms Khampepe had decided to sit for the entire duration of the remainder of the evidence.  I believe that if and when Ms Khampepe is no longer able to continue with the hearing that my clients' instructions are that we should postpone the matter and I have discussed that with my colleagues as well.  If needs be, until tomorrow, that's what we discussed provisionally unfortunately we have not been able to come back to you about that.

JUDGE WILSON: Well if we adjourn I doubt that we will
be ready to continue tomorrow and it will involve considerable inconvenience for all parties, and expense, but if that is your client's attitude well then we will have to hear argument on that at the time if that occurs.  But in the meantime we will continue with the cross-examination of this witness.

JIMMY MBANE: (s.u.o.)
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr
Chairman.  
	Mr Mbane,  you informed the Committee that at the time of the attack, and you were quite clear in your evidence about that, there were only seven members.  Is that correct?  That's excluding you and Mr Jimmy Mbane, Eric Maluleka, I beg your pardon.

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: You also informed us at an earlier stage that when you sort of took charge of the group there were only four members joined by a fifth one and then the group then grew bigger as things developed.  Is that correct?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: : If you could look at your Cape Town  statement and more specifically paragraph 6 thereof on the second page, and perhaps in fairness you should also look at paragraph 5 of it so that you can read it in context.  If you wouldn't mind just reading that quickly, I would like to ask you something about that.

JIMMY MBANE: I have read it.

MR BOOYENS: Paragraph 6 - and that is after you
met Mr Yamile in the bush, you met the comrades and you informed the comrades that - 
"I came from exile to work with them I took command of this group.  They were approximately 9 members in this group."
Now as I read this, it seems there were already 9 members in the group when you took command of the group.  Can you explain that please?

JIMMY MBANE: When I got there I found four people and later on the fifth one arrived and the number grew to nine.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, but the point I'm making, is it seems in your statement, my impression in any case from reading it, is that there were nine members in the group when you took command of it, shortly after they were introduced to the chief.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should read paragraph 7 as
well.

MR BOOYENS: I presume that was addressed to the
witness.

CHAIRPERSON: You see in paragraph 7 you say that Rasta Chris Pete was a member of the group, of this group of nine that you took command of.

JIMMY MBANE: Rasta came afterwards, after having met the first four.

MR BOOYENS: Are you incapable of explaining the anomaly in these three paragraphs in your statement because this statement certainly conveys, it seems to, not only to me, that you took command of a group of nine people.  You are unable to explain why that impression is, why one get that impression?

JIMMY MBANE: No I cannot explain that but all I know is that I started with four people, then Rasta joined and then the number gradually grew to nine and that's all, there's nothing else I can explain.

MR BOOYENS: You are also adamant in your evidence that the, except you and Eric Maluleka, everybody else in the group were killed at Guguletu?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct.
MR BOOYENS	With the Commission's permission, my
Lord, I have referred yesterday to a certain video recording we've got.  I would like to, the witness, it's not very long, it's part of the usual TRC - SABC programme and on that there is what appears to be an interview with a gentleman who claimed that he was a member of the group who was present at the attack and the one, one of the ones that got away.  With your permission we have got the TV set up I would just like to have the witness have a look at that, perhaps he can explain to us whether he knew this person.  It's only unfortunately photographed from the back.  He doesn't want to disclose his identity.  But I would like to hear his comment about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Look, I would like to ask him something
before we do that.  You were referred to paragraph 5, by Mr Booyens, and there you say -
"When I went there, I arrived at Nyanga bush, I met with the person in charge of the comrades, Mr Yamile, who arranged for me to meet the comrades".
Was he in charge of the comrades?  And if so what is meant by comrades?

JIMMY MBANE: He was the chief in that area and he was handling all these matters.
CHAIRPERSON	Doesn't comrades mean members of the ANC?

JIMMY MBANE: Yes, there were Comrades and Witdoeke. There
were two different groups.

CHAIRPERSON: And was Mr Yamile in charge of the
comrades?

JIMMY MBANE: That's correct Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay,  carry on.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, if my attorney could just, if they could just bear -  the video tape could just be put in.  We are in a position where we can't see it because....

CHAIRPERSON: Would you like to move and I think
perhaps the witness should move around a little so that there can
be no confusion.  Can you see?  Could that lamp be turned off for 
the moment.
(Sounds of video - "November last year, nine policeman...."   ...(intervention)
ADV MOSES:	My Lord, I do not, my Lord may I just before
this is screened I do not want to be problematic, I think my
learned friend has yesterday received, indicated that, or 
referred to this video. I must place on record that it has never 
been conveyed to me or my client by any member of the 
Commission or the investigative unit or the legal team on behalf
of Mr Bellinghan that this evidence is going to be led, and
obviously we have not, my client, neither myself or Ms Berlin 
has had the benefit of either not knowing that this new evidence 
will be led and we didn't have an opportunity to consult about that.  Just as we did not have the opportunity to consult about the statement.  I did not want to be problematic and prolong the proceedings of the Committee, but I need to place on record that we are caught basically by surprise.

CHAIRPERSON: But this was mentioned yesterday.  Mr
Booyens questioned your client about this yesterday and as I understood, said he was going to try to get us the video.  So you had ample opportunity during the adjournment to consult with your client.  I agree you may not have seen the video but you had opportunity to consult.

MR MOSES: If I was given - if the Committee has made an order, you would remember M'Lord that I have requested permission to consult with my client and Mr Booyens then objected because my client was under oath and still under, he has already started to testify and he was under cross-examination and practice, rule of practice is that one will have to get special permission for that, and I was denied that permission.  Well, Mr Booyens objected.