Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MR JANSEN: Oh, yes, of the evidence book, yes.  Sorry, I was on the typed numerical - sorry, Mr Chairman.  And, Mr Chairman, I then just wish to call the applicant, Mr Coetzee, as a witness.

DIRK JOHANNES COETZEE: (Sworn, States)

DIRK JOHANNES COETZEE: QUESTIONED BY MR JANSEN

DIRK JOHANNES COETZEE: Mr Chairman, as indicated originally in the Mxenge matter, we do not intend repeating the background evidence, if that could just then be seen as part and parcel of this application.  Mr Coetzee, it's a matter of public record that a Mr Joe Pillay was abducted from Swaziland on the 19th of February 1981.

WITNESS:   That's correct, Mr Chairman.

DIRK JOHANNES COETZEE: Were you involved in that incident?

WITNESS:   I was, Mr Chairman.

DIRK JOHANNES COETZEE: /Who did

DIRK JOHANNES COETZEE: Who did the actual abduction of Mr Joe Pillay from Swaziland?

WITNESS:   The askaris working under me.

DIRK JOHANNES COETZEE: During his abduction where were you at the time?

WITNESS:   In Pretoria at Police Headquarters, but later that night at my house after briefing my Section C chief, Brigadier Willem Skoon.

DIRK JOHANNES COETZEE: How did it come about that you were in Pretoria at the time?

WITNESS:   Whilst we were surveilling several ANC houses for the purpose of operations against them I was called back to Pretoria by Brigadier Skoon to come and make a full report on the progress that we were making.  He instructed me to leave the askaris behind in Swaziland and ask Chris Dieklifs, Lieutenant Chris Dieklifs of the Ermelo branch, to keep an eye over them and meet with them on a daily basis.

DIRK JOHANNES COETZEE: Was ... (intervention)

MR DE JAGER: Sorry Mr - sorry to interrupt.  You say the askaris working under you.  Could you please name them?  You said, "While we were doing this in Pretoria," or elsewhere.  Could you say who are you doing those things?

WITNESS:   If I remember correctly the askaris that was with me in Swaziland were Amaru, a Portuguese citizen, coloured Portuguese citizen, Mr Petrus Kgaodi, an askari.  Petrus Kgaodi, I think it's K-g-a-o-d-i, Kgaodi.  Askari Thabu Magagi - Magagi, and an askari Jeff Busigu, and there might have been one or two more.  The white policemen involved was Ermelo Branch itself, Lieutenant Chris Dieklifs, the commander, who is at present Colonel Dieklifs, Mpumalanga and Security Regional Commander, a Captain Paul Hattingh from the explosive desk - I think I mentioned it yesterday - at Security Headquarters, and at

MR DE JAGER: /the time

MR DE JAGER: the time Warrant-Officer Paul van Dyk of Oshoek, but who worked under Ermelo Security Branch.

MR DE JAGER: Was the abduction of Mr Pillay planned at that stage that the askaris were present in Swaziland?

WITNESS:   Not at that specific night.  Not for that specific night.  It would have happened later on when everything has been intact, the surveillance has been done, all the plans for the different houses that we would have bombed had been intact.  Only then, if necessary, Mr Pillay would have been abducted.

MR DE JAGER: What information did you have about Mr Pillay?   Who was he and what was he?

WITNESS:   That he was one of the senior ANC guys involved in the so-called Natal machinery.  With other words, operating in Natal area on a senior level.

MR DE JAGER: From where did you get this information?

WITNESS:   From Brigadier Skoon.

MR DE JAGER: When did you hear of the abduction of Mr Pillay?

WITNESS:   I was in bed that night when I was called by the then commander at Oshoek Border Post, Lieutenant Koos van der Lith.  His initials is J A C van der Lith.  He's at present a colonel in the Pietersburg area in the new South African Police.  I was called and told that the askaris has abducted a person and left him at Oshoek Border, that only one of the askaris stayed behind - I can't remember which one of the lot it was - but the rest has left in the same car back to Swaziland.

MR DE JAGER: And then what was your reaction on that?

WITNESS:   My immediate concern was why he didn't order all the askaris out of Swaziland immediately, and I asked him to urgently make an effort to make contact with the askaris, because

MR DE JAGER: /they were

MR DE JAGER: they were staying in the Dutch Reformed Parsonage in Manzini, which was rented by a Portuguese friend of ours -of mine, Johnny Vas.  To get hold of them and order them out of Swaziland immediately.

MR SKWEYIYA: Sorry to interrupt you.  Can you repeat what van der Lith told you?  You were too fast for some of us.  I couldn't catch up with you.

WITNESS:   I am sorry, Mr Chairman.  He told me that the askaris have abducted a man from Swaziland and left him at Oshoek Border, and one of the askaris stayed behind.  He then also said that the rest of the team has returned to Swaziland.

MR JANSEN: What eventually happened to the askaris inside of Swaziland?

WITNESS:   They were picked up the next morning in the same vehicle by the Swazi Police and army, which followed them to the house that they lived in, tear gassed them out, arrested them, and detained them at the Manzini Gaol.

MR JANSEN: In your application you mention the name of a Paul Hattingh.  Could you just explain to the Committee what his involvement was?

WITNESS:   Paul Hattingh was a very senior guy on the explosives desk, second in charge under Colonel Frans van Eeden in Security Police Headquarters, who would have done the explosive devices and prepared the bombs for the different houses that we would have identified.

CHAIRPERSON: When was the abduction of Mr Pillay planned?

WITNESS:   It was just mentioned, but not specifically planned.  We said we will come to the specific plan as soon as all the surveillance has been done on the different hide-outs of the ANC in Swaziland, and then only it will be decided on what would be done next - what would be done, whether

CHAIRPERSON: /Mr Pillay

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Pillay will be abducted, etcetera.

CHAIRPERSON: So the planning had not been finalised in that regard as far as the actual abduction is concerned?

WITNESS:  Not at all, Mr Chairman.

WILSON J: As I understand from your lengthier report you in fact had told the askaris to wait until you had greater certainty about the targets.

WITNESS:   That's correct.  That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: What happened to this person that you were told was with van der Lith?

WITNESS:   I beg your pardon?

MR JANSEN: What happened to this person that you were told was left with van der Lith?

WITNESS:   That was abducted?

MR JANSEN: Abducted, yes.

WITNESS:   I asked him to make contact with Ermelo Security Branch and hand them over.  I also contacted the branch, Lieutenant Dieklifs, and the next morning he was brought up by two of Chris Dieklif's men, and if my memory serves me right it was Sergeant Chris Rorich, who is now Colonel Rorich in the Mpumalanga area, and Constable Johan - the surname I can't remember.  And they brought him in the boot of their car, and he was inside a bag, what you call a maize bag.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible) ... Pillay?

WITNESS:   That was Pillay, Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: And where was he taken then?

WITNESS:   He was brought to Vlakplaas, and arrived there round about lunch time or just after lunch, the afternoon, and in the meantime I had reported at the morning half past seven meeting to Brigadier Skoon in detail what happened, and he organised for Captain Andy Taylor from Durban and Lieutenant Jerry Fourie from Pietermaritzburg Security Branch to come up to do the interrogation of Joe Pillay.

MR JANSEN: /Why those

MR JANSEN: Why those two persons to do the interrogation?

WITNESS:  They were the people from the area, Natal, and who would know the - what he would have been involved in, and the whole set up of the ANC and the structures in Natal and Pietermaritzburg areas.

MR JANSEN: Were the Vlakplaas units ever involved in the actual interrogation of detainees?