Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MR NGUBANE: And that goes to confirm that in areas which you claim were Inkatha areas or ANC areas, there were neutral people of whom you knew stayed in that areas.

DJ MKHIZE: Mr Ngubane, would you please not confuse this?  I explained yesterday that H2 is so big; there is one part I also referred to a garage and a place near the dipping area and some place further up near Mkoboza, but it's still H2.  And I also spoke about this area near Nkodane.  It is also H2.  And these areas are far apart even though they are still in the same area.  H2 is also part of Emakhanileni and be that as it may, we knew the borders.  It is a very big section.

MR NGUBANE: But you confirm that Nkodane's shebeen was in the H2 area which you regarded as ANC area.

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, I confirm that.

MR NGUBANE: And if ANC areas were so volatile as you want the members of the Committee and the public to believe, you could easily have been surrounded and killed in that shebeen, because you were not ANC.

DJ MKHIZE: I am not the only person who wants this Committee to believe that the situation was bad at Esikhawini.  The death of people is self-explanatory.  It indicates to the tension and how bad the situation was at Esikhawini.  The large numbers of people dying there explains how the situation was.
	Here we are still talking about people who died, being members of the ANC.  We're not talking of people who died being members of the IFP.  So that when we talk about people who died within the IFP as well, the number of people who died here can be multiplied several times.
	I therefore am not one person who is trying to explain and worsen the situation by drawing a bad picture.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Mkhize what Mr Ngubane was getting at, is did you not realize or did you not consider that you yourself may have been killed in Nkondane's shebeen, merely because of the fact that you were not an ANC person and you were there in ANC territory in an ANC drinking place, and you were not ANC.  Did you not consider yourself to be at great risk then, because of the situation you've explained?

DJ MKHIZE: Now I understand the question Mr Chairperson.  Yes, I knew fully well.  But as I have explained that I had a task, a specific task of gathering what information we required.  And secondly I trusted myself.  I knew how to defend myself.  I knew how to fight for myself.  And it would not have been easy therefore to be killed just like that.
	And also being a policeman, yes I knew very well that I was treading on a dangerous zone.  I knew that well.

MR NGUBANE: Now you talked about Jerry Ndanda who was one of the members of your hit squad.  Do you recall?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Was he a trained MK member who defected from the ANC into your fold?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, that's the information I had.

MR NGUBANE: Did he defect during your activities - well, sorry - after your activities of killing people had started already at Esikhawini?

DJ MKHIZE: I am not sure at what point in time he defected.  But I think he may have defected earlier.

MR NGUBANE: Well, because I have instructions that this gentleman known as Bafana Jele was never at any stage known as Mtanda.  In other words you and your colleagues - well, let me put it this way: your colleagues murdered the wrong person; not the person known as Mtanda.

DJ MKHIZE: I cannot disagree with that.  I really don't know.  If there is information that we killed a wrong person, I cannot disagree with that.  However, one person whom we intended killing was Mtanda.

MR NGUBANE: And is it correct that Bafana Jele, you couldn't identify him and even in the Supreme Court when you were given photographs you couldn't make him out?

DJ MKHIZE: We identified him.

MR NGUBANE: Is it correct that Bafana Jele is amongst the four boys, namely Velenko Zini, Sipho Mzimela, Sibusizo Mdluli en Mosikwakwe Ngobo who were killed at Ngema's shebeen?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Members of the Committee, those names will appear on pg 4 of the Supreme Court record.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane.

MR NGUBANE: And I have instructions that in fact when those boys were shot at, they were not carrying any fire-arms.  What's your comment?

DJ MKHIZE: I don't know what guns Romeo and Constable Mthethwa and Israil came from.  But I can say for a fact that these guns were not part of the guns in my syndicate.  And I can assure you that when I got out of my car walking into Nbula's house, the guns were not in the car in which we were travelling.  But on leaving Nbula's house after gunshots coming to them, there were guns then.

MR NGUBANE: What eventually became of those fire-arms?

DJ MKHIZE: We put them in 12.

MR NGUBANE: With the leave of the Chairman and the Members of the Committee, can I ask one of the victims to come forward, to step forward to see whether he can recognise him or not?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly Mr Ngubane.

MR NGUBANE: Can I ask that Nkosinathi Jobe come forward please.  If you could just stand there.  Mr Mkhize, do you know this man?

DJ MKHIZE: No, I don't.

MR NGUBANE: His name is Nkosinathi Jobe.  And my instructions are that he was never involved in any political activity.  And he was shot by you and Mbambo at Mzingwenya whilst he was walking alone from his place of employment.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane, what was that place called?  Mzingwenya (spelt).

MR NGUBANE: Do you... [intervention]

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is that the school Mr...?

MR NGUBANE: It's the area called Mzingwenya in Esikhawini.

DJ MKHIZE: What I can say Mr Ngubane is that I take full responsibility of all what happened.  If my brother here claims that he was shot by us, I cannot deny that.  Because there were operations about which I have explained, operations which were not specifically to get to a particular person.  It is now clear to me that he got hurt the same way, under the operations that I have explained, for reasons that I have explained.  And therefore I accept and take full responsibility.  I can see now that because of this, that is why he is like this today.

MR NGUBANE: He can step back Mr Chairman, thank you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What date are we alleging?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jobe, you can sit down.

MR NGUBANE: This incident Mr Mkhize occurred on the 20th of April 1992.  You say you can't recall it.

DJ MKHIZE: No, I don't.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I would just like to interpose Mr Ngubane.  Is Mzingwenya area an IFP or ANC stronghold to your knowledge Mr Mkhize?

DJ MKHIZE: It is within the ANC.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Ngubane.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.  I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, if I could just interpose here; it's obviously clear to everybody present, including yourself and the Committee that there's an enormous amount of information and detail that's come out here.  And Mr Mkhize has been on the witness stand for a considerable length of time today.  I would request if he could have a short break of five minutes just to regroup and order before questions continue, in order that he can be refreshed and to deal with the questions to the best of his ability.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objection Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: No.  In fact I've concluded my questioning.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Wills, we will take a short adjournment now and if you can kindly inform us, we'll take it for five minutes (indistinct) that you could just inform us please.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

DJ MKHIZE: (s.u.o)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.  Sorry Mr Chairman.  I had concluded my questioning, but during the short break just one aspect for the purposes of clarification was brought to my attention.  May I just pose two questions to the witness?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Ngubane.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.