Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-02

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: We'd confiscate guns from members of the community which were not legal, we would confiscate those guns because of these reasons.  As the youths we decided that if you have an unlicensed firearm it should be taken to the sectional commander, they should be taken and be under the control of the commander.

MR MADASA: In short, from what I understand from you, you literally played the role of the police and if that is correct, why did you play the role of the police?  Where were they?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Chairperson, we were doing the communities work, then the police were our enemies because we were not able to cooperate with the police.

MR MADASA: Tell us what the problem was with the police at that time.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Firstly, I would talk about stability unit, they would come during the night vigil and start shooting people, then we would collect the cartridges and take them to the police station and there would be no action taken after that.
	If there is an in-fight in Katlehong the police would take a side, that's why at the end of the day we decided that the police are not cooperating with the community in Katlehong.

CHAIRPERSON: The fight that the police would take sides in would be between who?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Like for example, in Katlehong, Katlehong was infested with violence.  I would talk about Polla Park, Crossroad.  If there is a fight between ANC and IFP the police would take the side of the IFP, then we would regard them as our enemy because of their actions.

MR MADASA: Do you have other examples of the stability units taking sides against you?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: I don't Mr Chairperson if you will allow me to summarise the situation of Katlehong shortly in relation to the work of the stability unit.

MR MADASA: Okay, do so.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: As from 1989, there was a taxi violence between GNT, GND and another taxi association.  The community tried to solve the problem, the problem was not solved and the community went to Hunters Field stadium to try to solve the problem.
	The civic called a mass meeting to the stadium in Katlehong, where the decision was taken that GND and KATU should be boycotted.  That decision was taken.  Immediately after the meeting we were shot by the police, they were accompanied by GND.  After that they went to schools and shooting students at school, that is GND.  
	That is where the community took the law in their own hands and drove out GND outside the community.  Those GND taxis were now operating to Germiston(?) and not in Katlehong.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what GND stands for?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It Germiston district something, I'm not sure of the full name.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And what was the other association?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is KATU.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it K-A-D-U?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: It's KATU.

CHAIRPERSON: K-A-T-U?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this a taxi association?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.  Yes, GND and KATU were operating from Katlehong.

CHAIRPERSON: From Katlehong to Germiston?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Yes, from Katlehong to Germiston.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well, continue.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: And then again there was a fight in Crossroad, that was the fight between IFP and ANC.  When I speak of Crossroad I speak of an informal settlement next to Katlehong station.  What the police did then, they were helping IFP to drive our members out so that our people should not be able to settle in that informal settlement and then people ran to Zongezizwe and the police took a site there.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the fight in Polla Park over the plots of land?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Crossroad is next to Shangweni.

CHAIRPERSON: But you mentioned that there was a - did you say that there was a fight in Polla Park?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Between the IFP and the ANC?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the cause of the conflict?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: According to my little knowledge people from Polla Park were coming from Kalenjoni Hostel.  Within the Kalenjoni Hostel there was a conflict, other left the hostel - members of the ANC left the hostel to ...[indistinct] squatter camp next to Polla Park.
	I believe that the fight started in the hostel.  There was a fight, that if you are a Xhosa you are not wanted in the hostel.  Then they would ask you: "What is an elbow"? and if you're not able to say that they would ill-treat you and the fight started there.  That I would say between the Xhosa and the Zulu's but it was a political issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  And that violence was then transported into Polla Park?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Are you talking about Polla Park Sir?  You asked about Polla Park?  Yes, I explained, it started from Crossroad then overlapped to Polla Park.

CHAIRPERSON: So from the hostel into Crossroad and then from Crossroad into Polla Park?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: The squatter camp is Crossroad, then Crossroad, Polla Park, Zongezizwe.

MR MADASA: Okay, continue with this Crossroad.  You say police helped IFP to drive certain people out of Crossroad?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: That is correct, to chase out our members from Crossroad.  Why I say that is that our members requested members of IFP to go and fight outside in the veld, IFP did not do that.  What they did, they assaulted our people together with the police.

MR MADASA: Yes, continue.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: From Crossroad it went to Polla Park and in Polla Park was a fight where many people died, even the Germiston mortuary was overcrowded by corpses.  Holomisa hired buses to collect our deceased.  The IFP did not do that.  The government buried some people who were not known as, in a proper situation.

MR MADASA: Yes, continue.

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: After that, we as residents of Katlehong, it was difficult to go to work because the train for example, in Kumalo it was started in, the station was at Kwezini which is near the hostel.
	We would board the train in Lindela although it is quite a distance because we would not go to a place where we know that Nkatha members would be there.  We made the point that residents should not board a train at that particular period where it was a problem.  	Even inside the train the Katlehong residents would be killed.  If you are a preacher preaching in Xhosa you would be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: And if you speak Sotho?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: If you speak Sotho, were you killed as well?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: Sometimes you are a Xhosa speaking person but you are conversant in Sesotho or in Gedebe.  They used many tactics like the elbow, it's called Ndololani in Xhosa, they would request you to say that in Sesotho.  If you managed to do that they would let you pull your pants down to look at your private parts.  If you've been to a circumcision school then it was pot luck.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position that the Sotho speaking Africans were not attacked?

MOHALE OSCAR MOTLOKWA: When these things started they were looking for Xhosas but as time went on they hit at everyone, but at the beginning they wanted the Xhosas and the Zulus but it changed with time, they were harassing everybody.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MADASA: When you say: "later on they harassed everybody", are you referring now to all township residents?