Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-21

UNKNOWN: Well it was ridiculous especially in the case of the married couple who couldn't even eat their lunch or sandwiches together at court.  I suppose we accepted it, I mean men and women are separated in jails very, very strictly.

MRS SEROKE: You also say in your statement that you never had visits from lawyers and because Barbeton was so far, you thought perhaps there was a perception that the prisons for women were softer, more gentle and comfortable and yet in the same way you describe the harshness that was meted out to the Black prisoners, does it mean that your treatment was softer as against the Black women prisoners?

UNKNOWN: Most certainly, all right it was pretty harsh but for example the witness before me described the most appalling conditions.  When we needed medical attention we got it.  I think they were scared of publicity you know, it wasn't because they loved us, it was because they didn't want any irregularities publicized.

MRS SEROKE: In the last paragraph of your statement you sort of compare Barbeton as ...,  ... of the society, would you comment on that?

UNKNOWN: Well the privilege, the depravation I mean it actually enforced apartheid didn't it, I mean those jails were enforces of apartheid just as the police were.  The way the wardresses used to try and humiliate the prisoners and that included us, I mean they didn't treat us like ladies, they just treated us better than Black women and humiliation or attempted humiliation was used a lot.  I think they used to get annoyed about the political prisoners because it's not easy to humiliate a political prisoner you know you're proud of what you've done, you're not ashamed of it and I think that got to them sometimes but they certainly did try.  They made me ... when I went in.

UNKNOWN: Could you explain what ... is?

UNKNOWN: You stood naked and you would have to jump and show that you aren't carrying anything in your ...

MRS SEROKE: At least you had that in common with the Black prisoners.

UNKNOWN: Yes we did.

MRS SEROKE: Lastly Jean, now that you are back at The Fort and we are told that very soon this place will be the seat of the Constitutional Court, what do you think about that for the future generation and for nation building?

UNKNOWN: I'm very happy that the building should be put to good use at last after all this time, aren't you?

MRS SEROKE: Thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, are there any other questions?  Tom?

THOMAS MANTHATA: Jean having heard that organising observation of ... you know shared and that story of a person being shot and it was said that they can easily explain it off by saying he was attempting to run away, did this ever give you a feeling that this observation or these things need to be either reported to the press or where possible, even report them to the members of the Communist Party to see what could be done?

UNKNOWN: Of course we were horrified.  When we came out it wasn't easy, we were all under banning orders and there was also the Prisons Act in force which forbid the publication of information about prisons and prisoners, also I don't think any of us were in very close touch with the Communist Party because the Communist Party didn't  want to be in touch because we were marked people do you see, to meet us would have meant being followed.  At meetings overseas I spoke about this quite a lot but not in South Africa because it was against the law and quite impossible.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What used to happen in South Africa was, we would tell the stories to our lawyers and this is how the whole rallying up of the lawyers to come to the groups of lawyers for human rights emerged because talking to individuals or organisations sometimes was futile but once you relate these things to your defence it had an effect much as it would have taken time.

UNKNOWN: I suppose so, yes.  I did relate them quite a lot overseas as part of a campaign for the release of South African political prisoners.  The campaign went on for a long time.

THOMAS MANTHATA: When you went abroad, was it on an exit permit?

UNKNOWN: Yes I couldn't get a job, I was banned and under house arrest.  I was a teacher, nothing I wrote could be published, I couldn't teach, I couldn't even enter the premises of an educational institution, I had no money, no rent, I was staying with friends so I went overseas.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

DR BORAINE: Hugh Lewin?

MR LEWIN: Mr Chairman if I may ask two questions.  In and again looking to our responsibilities and possibilities as a Commission, the Committee that we serve on the Human Rights Violations Committee, has a definition set down in the Act of what a gross human rights violation is and it's defined in terms of murder, torture, abduction and then this phrase severe ill-treatment, what is your feeling about the effects of isolation, being kept in isolation, being kept alone, being kept in detention, would you define that as severe ill-treatment?

UNKNOWN: The prison authorities themselves know it's ill-treatment, that's why they use it as a punishment.  People found guilty of prison offences are kept in isolation, it is a punishment.  I can't describe it's effects to you very well because you go slightly crazy and it's very difficult to describe your own craziness, but you do.

MR LEWIN: Can you put a time on it?

UNKNOWN: I think Colonel Fred van Niekerk of the Special Branch once told the court that prisoners started showing evidence of disorientation, signs of disorientation within three days.

MR LEWIN: Secondly, looking towards the recommendations which we need to make and specifically about the Prison's Act because the Prison's Act was used as a means of veiling everything that went on in prison, as a recommendation because you've obviously thought about it a lot, do you have any suggestions for what we should put in terms of monitoring affairs in prison etc.?

UNKNOWN: You couldn't be in Barbeton without thinking about it a lot, it was such a shocking place.  I think that prison conditions and what the prisons are trying to do should be discussed more generally, they're still not being discussed, it's as if the Prison's Act is still restraining us.  I think the prison regulations should be set up by active parliament after a discussion in the House of Assembly, after debates in the House of Assembly.  Secondly, I think local Commanding Officers have too much power, they call tell lies as there's no one to contradict them except the prisoner to whom nobody listens or the warders in who's interest it is to support them.  I think there should be an independent monitoring body, independent of the Department of Correctional Services.

MR LEWIN: Made up of civil society?

UNKNOWN: Yes or something, I mean I have no ideas about that but certainly independent, certainly with the right to make reports public, certainly with the right to inspect prisons without much warning and to whom the prisoners could speak.

MR LEWIN: Under the old Prisons Act certainly, I think Judges always had the right to visit any prisons they wanted at any time, were you ever visited?