Human Rights Violation Hearings — Karoo — 1996-10-08

ADV POTGIETER: Now you said that there was an argument before the shooting happened and it seemed to have been - well it seemed to have involved Sophie and Silingo and your father as well or what?

NAPHTHAEL TSHEMESE: It was between Sophie, Jackson Tshemese and Simon Tshemese.

ADV POTGIETER: It was Sophie, your grandfather and your brother Simon Silingo.

NAPHTHAEL TSHEMESE: It is so sir.

ADV POTGIETER: What were they arguing about?

NAPHTHAEL TSHEMESE: I am not clear, I wouldn't know.  They were already arguing when I got there as I was sleeping.

ADV POTGIETER: Was that the first time that they had an argument or was there a sort of  a period of bad blood between them?

NAPHTHAEL TSHEMESE: It was the first time.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] your family and Sophie, the Jantjie family it seems.

NAPHTHAEL TSHEMESE: Yes we knew  - the two families knew each other very well.

ADV POTGIETER: Was there any problems any arguments between the two families?

NAPHTHAEL TSHEMESE: No there was no such, not prior to the incident.

ADV POTGIETER: Now it is - its common knowledge that Simon Silingo in fact shot Sophie,  and you've explained to us it was after having fired the two shots into the air - why did he fire that third shot at Sophie?

NAPHTHAEL TSHEMESE: It is because there were people throwing stones at our house and she also threw stones, that is why she was shot.

ADV POTGIETER: While they were arguing, was she armed with anything, was she armed in any way?

NAPHTHAEL TSHEMESE: No she was not armed.

ADV POTGIETER: And when she was shot that third time, what was she - exactly what was she doing?

NAPHTHAEL TSHEMESE: She was ahead of the rest of the crowd, she picked up stones trying to stone our house, this is when Simon Tshemese shot her.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] she just picked up the stones and she was about to start throwing?

NAPHTHAEL TSHEMESE: She as already in the process of throwing stones.

ADV POTGIETER: [indistinct] did the stoning stop or did it continue?

NAPHTHAEL TSHEMESE: It got worst, that is why we ran into the house.

ADV POTGIETER: Now have you - have you witnessed any part of the incident that resulted in your father being killed?

NAPHTHAEL TSHEMESE: No I did not see anything.

ADV POTGIETER: Did that happen after Sophie was shot?

NAPHTHAEL TSHEMESE: Yes sir.

ADV POTGIETER: And did it also happen after Nelson was in the house, as you had explained earlier?

NAPHTHAEL TSHEMESE: Yes sir.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson.

MARY BURTON: Thank you Mr Tshemese, we have heard really this account of a very great tragedy in Phillipstown and our efforts to come at the truth have seem to me while I have been listening as if we were - as if we had an apple in front of us, and people were taking bites at the apple from one side and the other side to try and establish the truth from their part.
 And in a way it helped me to see that once you finished taking bites at the apple, you have to meet in the middle.  And telling the truth for the Truth Commission is one part of what we have to achieve, because it does help to try and reach that point in the middle where we really believe we understand what happened.
 But at that same point, we have to come together and come together not in conflict but in recognition that everybody was a victim in that situation.  We have the tragic death of Sophie Butele  and the tragic death in the Tshemese family, both of which things that should never have happened.
 And we feel that you have all come here today and re-experienced that pain and that anger and we hope that it has helped you in some way to put some of those very strong feelings aside.  And it is our responsibility but also yours, and that of all the people in your communities and particularly the leaders in your communities to find ways of moving ahead.
 We can try to help, we can offer the opportunity to organise workshops where we can explore these topics further, and we are very available to you for that.  But in the end you are the people who have in any case, survived the years since those events.  It is your own strong communities that have helped you somehow to live through them.  And it is your own strong communities that will help  you again we believe, to come through this period.
 So we thank you all for your courage and your frankness in telling us of your experiences.  I have found it a very moving and a very difficult day in many ways as I am sure every - I have the sense that everybody here is sitting like I am on the edge of my chair listening to these things.  And we value the honesty with which you have spoken and the courage with which you have spoken and we thank you very much indeed - you Mr Tshemese and all of you who took part today.
 Unless there is anything else that you want to say, you - its all right for you to leave the stage now.

NAPHTHAEL TSHEMESE: I don't want to say anything further because what happened between these two families is in the past, there is no discordance, thank you.

MARY BURTON: Thank you very much indeed.

NAPHTHAEL TSHEMESE: Thank you.