Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-02

KING MAYISHA: I was not involved in such.  Actually, that was said sometimes in Parliament, but they would switch off.  After the Parliament has come to an end for the day, they will discuss these things.  I am talking now, I have got a subject here, Simon Kedu who is going to give witnesses here.  Those were people who were saying to me I know where the fire comes from.  We are not actually today trying to put somebody into court as the Bishop has said, that today is not a court, but I am saying he can say it himself, Kedu hear that, they were saying to me you know where the fire comes from because I use to say, gentlemen, do not think that there will be people coming from the cities to come and make unrest here.  It will be your own children and your own people.  So I was not involved in the arson.

CHAIRPERSON: Your Majesty, thank you very much.  Sorry, Dr Randera.

DR RANDERA: Your Majesty, I just wanted to ask when did you actually resign, I know you said you were not chosen as a Cabinet Minister at one stage.  Did you actually resign from Government or from the Parliament of the time.

KING MAYISHA: I did not resign, but I made it possible for them to dismiss me.  I can say why I did not resign.  Why I did not resign at the hottest time, it was because I was link between the Cabinet and the Royal family which is the youth and the people of KwaNdebele and I was playing a very, very important role which other people do not know.  I was, sort of, moving information both sides and the other people whom I was reporting to, they were also not saying resign because they did know that once I resigned, they are going to lose the link, they are not going to know what is happening that side of the river.
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DR RANDERA: Sir, can I just follow that up and then ask how strong was the opposition within Parliament to the Cabinet as such then?

KING MAYISHA: There was no opposition as such, but when there were elections in 1984, there were 16 members that should be elected.  Out of those members there was one person which is Prince Andries Mahlangu and then Prince Klaasma Kosana Mahlangu and then Prince James was designated.  Those people who went into that Parliament with a mandate from other people outside that says you are going there to oppose the independence.  I would not say there was no opposition, but those Princes, supported by me, they were strong because in the first place they were from the Royal family.  Even if they were not strong in stopping them to do things, but they could make them to do all these things that they were doing to go and assault people because they want to force people to go into independence.

DR RANDERA: My last question Your Majesty is coming back to the Imbokhoto.  You said quite clearly that the relationship between this grouping and some Cabinet Ministers and the leader of the Cabinet at the time, Mr Skosane and Mr Ntoli.  Were the links beyond Government?  In your opinion were there any links beyond Government as such?  Were the SAP or the SANDF or was it purely a grouping related to the KwaNdebele Government at the time?

KING MAYISHA: According to me it was a grouping related to KwaNdebele Government.  Why I am saying that is because the Chief Minister of that time lost control over his Minister of Internal Affairs which was Piet Ntoli, lost control. Ntoli was running the whole issue.  So I think what was happening was that they could see the other independent
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states, the life that the President, the Prime Minister, the type of life that they were living.  So the whole problem started from there.  They were imagining themselves in those positions.

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Your Majesty, we thank our Majesty King Mayisha on the words that he has uttered.  That his nation should not say now that things, they are talking about the things of the past.  We are here to tell the truth more than anything and we will try to reconcile.  The Commission has been delegated to come and assist in finding the truth and gathering the facts about what happened in the past and to get them reconciled.  Our request is that the Ndebele nation should come together and be one and in case there is something that one has, if there are any rights that have been violated from other people, we should try to bring peace to the Ndebele nation.  We thank you.

KING MAYISHA: Thanks very much Mr Chairman.  What I am sure of is that if you can bring us together, I can see that maybe if you can try to bring us together because I have failed.  When I was trying people were always afraid that maybe there was going to be other things.  Another thing is that I have requested that the former Kandisi had made us bankrupt and we are still fighting to pay those debts and we are still not in a position of paying off.  Our request is that those debts would be written off and I am not prepared to pay.  I can rather be arrested for that.

CHAIRPERSON: What I can say is that the Premier is here with us and understands.  Maybe he can have something to say about your request of writing off your debts and that they should give other people a chance to start again.
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KING MAYISHA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I think so.  I mean it is half past eight, it is very hot in here.  Thank you very much.
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