Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR ZWANE: Once, after coming from prison, as I have stated to you that I was arrested in the process of the formation of the team.

MR VALLY: What were you arrested for?

MR ZWANE: I was arrested for the murder of Xola Makulane one other....

MR VALLY: When was he murdered?

MR ZWANE: That was February 1987.

MR VALLY: When was the Club formed?

MR ZWANE: The Club was formed, the process of the formation of the Club started late, it was December or November 1988 the process started.

MR VALLY: 1988?

MR ZWANE: 1986, I am sorry.

MR VALLY: Let's go on.  Did you ever meet Vusile at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

MR ZWANE: I never met Vusile there.

MR VALLY: You have never met him at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

MR ZWANE: I never met Vusile there.

MR VALLY: I will come back to that.  You met Oupa Sehere at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

MR VALLY: Now let's talk about the story of when Mr Oupa Sehere came to borrow your Scorpion because his AK was too big to take with him in the taxi, do you carry a Scorpion around with you?  We are talking about a machine pistol Archbishop.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, I was.... (General laughter)

MR ZWANE: No I don't carry the Scorpion always, I didn't carry it always.

MR VALLY: So what were you doing with your Scorpion machine gun at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

MR ZWANE: In fact the same day which I was in possession of the Scorpion at Mrs Mandela's place we were coming from the funeral of one of our comrades ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Uhuh, so you were coming from a funeral from one of the comrades and did you go there with the Mandela United Football Club members?

MR ZWANE: By then, if I recall well the Mandela Football Club, as I have stated, was still in the process of its formation.  It wasn't yet formed.

MR VALLY: When was this?

MR ZWANE: Whew I cannot recall when.

MR VALLY: Alright so this Club was starting to be formed in 1986, late 1986 and by the time the Scorpion pistol - and between 1986 and the time of the Scorpion machine pistol being found on you, you had already received two sets of military training inside the country?

MR ZWANE: Yes of course.

MR VALLY: One by Vusile who you did not meet at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house, and the other one by Mr Oupa Sehere who you did meet at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

MR ZWANE: That's exactly.

MR VALLY: Alright.  Now you happen to be at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house and you happen to have a machine pistol, a Scorpion machine gun with you.  You were starting to explain to me you had come back from a funeral, with members of the Mandela United Football Club ...(intervention)

MR ZWANE: Then I will not say with the members of the Mandela Football Club because at that stage there was no Mandela Football Club as I am stating.  It was still in the process, it wasn't formed.

MR VALLY: Alright, it was still not formed, fine.  You were about to tell how you came into possession of that machine pistol, the Scorpion machine gun.

MR ZWANE: How?

MR VALLY: How did you come into possession?

MR ZWANE: I was given by Vusile.

MR VALLY: Where was this?

MR ZWANE: We were guarding, in fact the comrade which we were burying was killed by some of the gangsters at our area and we feared that they might come as there was that culture that during the night vigil people will come and attack and you ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: So you were given this machine pistol by Vusile?

MR ZWANE: I was given it by Vusile.

MR VALLY: Where was this?

MR ZWANE: This was at the night vigil, because we guarded the night vigil.

MR VALLY: Where was the night vigil?

MR ZWANE: It was at Orlando West.

MR VALLY: Near Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house?

MR ZWANE: It's in Orlando West but in another block of Orlando West but it's not far from Mrs Mandela's place.

MR VALLY: And then you were at the night vigil, Vusile comes and he says Bobo, did he call you Bobo?

MR ZWANE: Ja he called me Bobo.

MR VALLY: Bobo here's a machine gun pistol, guard this night vigil?

MR ZWANE: No in fact it wasn't me and Vusile alone, we were a couple of guys there, it was me in that night vigil, Vusile, Oupa Sehere and another unknown person to me.

MR VALLY: Fine.  And then what happens?

MR ZWANE: We guarded the funeral, the night vigil until late and the following day we went to the funeral and I had the Scorpion it was kept in the executive pack when we were going to the funeral.  After the funeral I went to Mrs Mandela's place with the other guys and my friends Tembiso and it's then I became to be in the possession of the Scorpion at Zinzi's bedroom.

MR VALLY: Alright, so we have now moved from the night vigil, he leaves the Scorpion pistol with you, you take it the next day to a funeral of who, can you tell me quickly?

MR ZWANE: I know this guy, I can't recall his real name but we usually call him Pontsu.

MR VALLY: Say it again?

MR ZWANE: We call him Pontsu.

MR VALLY: Can you just spell it for us please.

MR ZWANE: It's P-O-N-T-S-U.

MR VALLY: Right.  You don't know his full name?

MR ZWANE: I have forgotten his real name and surname.

MR VALLY: Okay.  So this is 24th, 25th of January 1987 that period?

MR ZWANE: Ja it's, I can't recall the exact date but assuming that, but I can't recall the ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Right, well it was that period.  You then come back from the funeral, did you take the executive bag with to the funeral?

MR ZWANE: I was with it from the deceased's home to the funeral it was always in my possession.

MR VALLY: So you carried the executive bag with the Scorpion pistol in it?

MR ZWANE: I did.

MR VALLY: Okay.  And now you are in Zinzi's bedroom with this executive bag with the Scorpion pistol?

MR ZWANE: I can't hear your question.

MR VALLY: You are now in Zinzi's bedroom ...(intervention)

MR ZWANE: Ja with the same ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: With this executive bag.

MR ZWANE: That's exactly.

MR VALLY: How well did you know the family?

MR ZWANE: Ooh well I would say I knew the family as we came to Mrs Mandela's place, fighting each other and I came to know the family as I usually visited the friends there and they would get used to Zinzi first because she was still young by then and there was ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: I thought the young people who stayed at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house stayed in the back rooms, how did you get into Zinzi's bedroom?

MR ZWANE: Zinzi's bedroom, in fact her ex-boyfriend became my friend because he came there as a visitor and I was always close to him.

MR VALLY: Who are you referring to?

MR ZWANE: That was Tembiso Buthelezi.

MR VALLY: I see.  Was Sitembiso Buthelezi there at the time?

MR ZWANE: He was there at that time.

MR VALLY: So you were with him, with your executive bag, still with your Scorpion pistol?

MR ZWANE: That's correct.

MR VALLY: Vusile hadn't taken it back from you?

MR ZWANE: No.

MR VALLY: I see.  Now in your statement you talk about a number of police raids on Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house, wasn't it irresponsible of you to go in there with the Scorpion machine pistol?

MR ZWANE: Once V told me that the place which one thought is not safe it was the most safest place so I usually live like that.

MR VALLY: I see. So you thought because Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house is the one that is raided so often it will be more safe than any other place?

MR ZWANE: I thought that with that Scorpion.

MR VALLY: Okay.  So this is why you took your Scorpion machine pistol in your executive bag there?

MR ZWANE: That's exactly.

MR VALLY: Did Vusile ever tell you that you had to return this machine gun?

MR ZWANE: No if he wanted to meet me there were ways, as my Commander if he wanted to meet me or he wanted that firearm back there were ways to contact me and get the firearm back.

MR VALLY: So you are sitting in Zinzi's bedroom, what are you doing there?