Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-02

MS PATEL: No, Honourable Chairperson, in fact that was the one bone of contention in that matter, in that the name of the informer, nobody would give to us.  There was no indication that the person who survived, was in fact the informer.  In fact, if one looked at the testimony of Cronje regarding that specific person, I do recall saying that it wasn't Vlakplaas' modus operandi to kill women and that is in fact why she was left behind, not that there was any allegation of her being the informer.

ADV DE JAGER: I am referring to the person who escaped and who was wounded in the foot, not the other one.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr de Kock, maybe finally on my side, Simon Radebe was part and parcel of the operation, yet he didn't apply for amnesty, do you know the reason why?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo, have you got any re-examination?

MR HUGO: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr de Kock, one of the main State witnesses in your criminal trail, was Willie Nortje?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct, yes.

MR HUGO: And Mr Willie Nortje was a confidante of yours once upon a time?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And at a certain stage he was turned, he walked over and he provided information to the Goldstone Commission?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct yes.

MR HUGO: Would you agree with me to say that Mr Willie Nortje's evidence against you, figuratively broke your back in the criminal trial?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct yes.

MR HUGO: And that there is no love lost between you and Mr Willie Nortje?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Chairperson.

MR HUGO: And in all his affidavits he made very detrimental remarks against you as a person and he went out of his way to incriminate or do injustice to you and during the criminal trial we also found out that Mr Nortje was stationed in Denmark before he testified in your trial, for days on end he made statements against you in the presence of the Attorney General?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And you have no doubt that if there is one person who wants to incriminate you in all possible things, that is Mr Willie Nortje?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct yes.

MR HUGO: And then we find that Mr Willie Nortje in his statement said you were not on the scene and you had nothing to do with this operation?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

MR HUGO: And then regarding Mr Steve Bosch, he also testified against you in the criminal trial?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: He also gave evidence which hurt you in the sense that you were convicted on the strength of his evidence in the Bheki Mhlangeni matter?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

MR HUGO: He also said that you were not on that scene, you had nothing to do with that operation?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: And then one other aspect, it was suggested to you that in Pretoria already you had decided to go to Chesterville and to kill that group of people, have you ever been to Chesterville before this operation?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: Did you for example know whether there was an army camp in Chesterville?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, I did not know it then.

MR HUGO: Have you ever before heard of a person called Hunter, who was stationed in this army camp in Chesterville?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: Mr Hunter says amongst others, he says that the members of Vlakplaas arrived there and amongst others they enquired about the existence of a certain Charles Ngcobo, have you ever heard of such a person?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, never, only during the trial in the Regional Court, that was a name that was mentioned after the shooting incident.

MR HUGO: The names of the deceased, have you ever heard before of these people?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: Then it was also mentioned that the people who were involved in the operation, disappeared as quickly as possible from the scene.  Is there any way according your knowledge, and according to the experience you had, why - how the people could have remained on the scene of the shooting after the incident and how they had to see that the people could be arrested?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Mr Chairman, they could have done that, but to the detriment of their own lives.

MR HUGO: The only people who had authority to arrest somebody, was Mr Radebe?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes Mr Chairman, there were two or three other people.

MR HUGO: And if they had remained on the scene and arrested people, let me put it to you in this way, would it not have led that the identity of the askaris would have been made known?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And they would have endangered their lives?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Mr de Kock it was also stated to you that Vlakplaas by implication was involved in killing the black members of the population and they avoided killing white members or society and especially black members of Vlakplaas would not be used in operations where white people had to be killed, can you remember that?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That was what was said Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: Can you remember the incident of Dirk Coetzee?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HUGO: You have applied for that?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And shortly the planning was that Mr Dirk Coetzee had to be killed in a gruesome way, on an explosive device which had to be sent to him in Lusaka where he was busy providing information to the ANC?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And that caused a problem with you and many of the people at Vlakplaas?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR HUGO: And also with the black members at Vlakplaas, you had a problem with this?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Mr Radebe who is going to testify in a while, is an applicant in this matter, in the sense that he was involved in taking this parcel-bomb to the post office and this had the objective in mind to take Mr Coetzee's life?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hugo.   Mr de Kock, thank you very much, you are excused.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Thank you Mr Chairman.
WITNESS EXCUSED

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Hugo, do you oppose Mr Nofomela's application?

MR HUGO: No Mr Chairman, we don't oppose Mr Nofomela's application.  The only reason why we are here is that Mr Nofomela's version that Mr de Kock gave him instructions and that Mr de Kock was the important point around which that whole operation centred.

ADV DE JAGER: But any finding that we make, whether Mr de Kock was there or not, would not be a problem?

MR HUGO: Not at all.

ADV DE JAGER: And we don't make findings whether an implicated person is guilty or not, because our finding is not going to help in any case, so I just want to see that we limit it as far as possible to the relevant facts.