Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-25

ADV SANDI: I don't mean you personally, but Mthimkhulu was understood by members of the security police to be intending to revenge.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Did you not want to know how far preparations had gone insofar as this revenge was concerned?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: At that stage I did not even think of this, I didn't have it in mind.

ADV SANDI: Did you know how far the preparations had gone anyway?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't understand the question, what preparations Mr Chairman?

ADV SANDI: You have said Mthimkhulu wanted to revenge - to take a revenge against the police, how far had that gone?  Surely there must have been a preparation in that direction.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is true but I didn't know how far planning had progressed because during that period two security policemen had died, whether he was directly involved I don't know.  There was no evidence to that effect that was led in court.

ADV DE JAGER: But the core of the question was that you had an opportunity to find out how far these plans had progressed, you could possibly have prevented the death of other people by questioning them and yet you didn't make use of this opportunity.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson, but we already decided earlier that they must ...[inaudible], that's how I saw it at that stage.

ADV DE JAGER: You wouldn't not use this opportunity to gain this kind of information, you would try and get it before he goes into the grave.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, that is so but it would be useless because we had detained Mr Mthimkhulu at an earlier stage and he couldn't provide us with any information.

CHAIRPERSON: This was five months later after you had had fresh information as I understand, that he was planning to use others to kill policemen and this was the one chance you had - as I think you conceded a little while ago, to question them without fear of the consequences.  You could tell them what you'd got from the informers, it didn't matter anymore, so why didn't you try to find out how far he had gone to try to get revenge on security policemen?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson I didn't, I didn't do it, it was a mistake on my side.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the short adjournment at this stage.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: (s.u.o)

MR PHOSA: (cont)
	Mr Nieuwoudt, according to Miss Lazo who is the late Mr Mthimkhulu's common wife, Mr Mthimkhulu was - never displayed aggression towards the police even in spite of what they'd done to him.  Never, whenever he met the police he was never aggressive, he was never wild or cruel or bitter.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I don't know but my information was that he had sworn to avenge himself against the security branch.  That was the information I had at my disposal.

MR PHOSA: Finally I just want to say to you, you killed or in some other way tortured many other people after you had killed Mr Mthimkhulu and Mr Madaka.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I did Mr Chairperson.  I had applied for those cases and they served before the Committee Mr Chairperson - the people whom I had assaulted during detention.

MR PHOSA: To your knowledge there cannot be many policemen who have killed as many people in their capacity as policemen as
you have done?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I cannot comment on the Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the short adjournment now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Right, we now have a change of questioners, Mr Nyoka will complete the cross-examination.

MR NYOKA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  It is not always easy or desirable to complete the construction of another skilful builder but I will do my best.
	Mr Nieuwoudt, you said that a decision to eliminate the two had already been taken when you reached Cradock, why was it necessary then to continue to interrogate them if a decision was taken?  Why didn't you just go there and eliminate them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, as I had already stated we arrived there late and the decision had been taken to do it the next evening.

MR NYOKA: Why did you have to wait the whole morning and afternoon to do it in the evening - almost after 12 hours?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, I don't know what the reason was.  I was the junior member, I don't know whether one of the other members who were there with me had possibly said we had to do it later but as I'd already explained.

MR NYOKA: Did you use silencers in shooting them or you just shot them with your guns without silencers?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I used my own service pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: What calibre?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was a .32 Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that police issue?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was so Mr Chairperson.

MR NYOKA: So, you did not care whether the sound was heard in the neighbourhood when you fired the two shots?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, there was nobody nearby, we didn't mind if the shot - weren't concerned that the shots might be heard.

MR NYOKA: But someone could have been in the neighbourhood, you could not control that.  Do you agree with me therefore that you were not organised in this scheme?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson, we knew that there were no people that lived nearby, there could have perhaps been somebody in the area but I don't know.

MR NYOKA: So therefore you will agree with me that it was reckless for you not to use silencers if you were organised at all in implementing this scheme?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR NYOKA: I get the impression that you were called in because you were "Mr Fix It" but apparently because of the tablet issue and the silencers, you were not "Mr Fix It"?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I don't have silencers Mr Chairperson.

MR NYOKA: I said, I thought you were called because of your expertise as being "Mr Fix It" in eliminating people, apparently you were not after all because you were not organised.  Do you agree with me?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR NYOKA: Mr Phosa referred to Boyiswa Shlazo, do you remember an incident in 1980 at Alabama Hotel when Mr Mthimkhulu called a meeting of civil leaders trying to ensure that the school boycotts ended.  Amongst the civil leaders there were Reverend Soka, Reverend Hiya and Attorney Sogoni.  As a result of his efforts the school boycott ended.  Do you remember that because you were watching from nearby?  In 1980 at the Alabama Hotel, do you remember that incident?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson, what I can remember is that in 1982 attempts were made by Reverend Soka - and the person, is it Reverend Soka, the interpreter couldn't pronounce it all that clearly?  I remember such a case but it was later in 1982, not in 1980.  In 1980 the schools boycott was ongoing and continued until 1982 Mr Chairperson.

MR NYOKA: My instructions are that in 1980 such a thing did occur and you and Mr du Plessis were in the neighbourhood watching from a distance - Mr Mthimkhulu far from being a rebel- rouser, he was a peacemaker.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson, all that I - if you refer to the Alabama Hotel - the hall there, all that I can remember that is in 1983 they had a UDF meeting there.

MR NYOKA: You referred to Mr Mbuyizelo Madaka, the brother of Topsi Madaka, do you know him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I know Mbuyizelo Madaka.

MR NYOKA: Did you know him in 1976?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I know him.

MR NYOKA: I see that you are smiling, maybe you know what I am going to say to you.  Is it not correct that you assaulted him during the first day - is it not correct that you assaulted during his first day of detention at Alabama sorry, at Sanlam building?