Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, my knowledge of military protocol and uniform protocol indicates to me that when one writes a letter, one writes a letter to the senior officer involved at a specific station.  Colonel Roos, although it is not clear from here, Colonel Roos was actually a Lieutenant-Colonel, but is entitled to be referred to as Colonel, but the senior officer at the East Rand Murder and Robbery Squad is a Colonel, a full Colonel, namely Colonel Human and that is why I wrote to him, but, Mr Chairman, I want to say also, that I had very little to do with Colonel Human's team on the Murder and Robbery Squad.

UNKNOWN: Let us deal with one matter at a time, Mr Derby-Lewis.  You said that you wrote that letter to Colonel Roos.  That evidence was incorrect.
MR PRINSLOO OBJECTS

MR PRINSLOO: In fact, Mr Chairman, it is not correct what Mr Bizos is putting.  He says he wrote to the officer in the uniform.  That is how I interpret the military procedure and he said Colonel Roos, he referred to Colonel Roos.  He is still saying that.

CHAIRPERSON: There should be no doubt about he intended to write to, surely.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I was directing my remarks...

CHAIRPERSON: To Colonel Roos.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... to Colonel Roos, obviously.

UNKNOWN: Why did you send it to Colonel Human, who received it, and in accordance with practice, put the stamp of his office there and when it was received and how it came to be with him?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I am not aware of the administrative arrangements, but it was addressed to him as the senior officer and it was...

UNKNOWN: Addressed to whom?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: ... and, Mr Chairman, let me state categorically, that the comments that I have here are equally applicable to Colonel Human and his team.  They are equally applicable to them, but I was not under their care either when I was under Section 29.  I was under the care of the security branch in a completely different situation.

CHAIRPERSON: That is really not relevant as to where you were at the time.  You were trying to express your thoughts about what had happened while you were under the control ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Specifically to Colonel Roos.

CHAIRPERSON: ... of Colonel Roos or Colonel Human.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct.  Yes, but I could not write to Colonel Roos, because he was not the Commanding Officer of the depot, Mr Chairman.  Courtesy demands ...

JUDGE WILSON: Was he not the commanding officer of the station?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He was the Commanding Officer of the station, yes Sir.

UNKNOWN: Just look at the stamp, where was he stationed?  Look at the back.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: South African Police, Commanding Officer.

UNKNOWN: Where?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: East Rand Murder and Robbery Squad.

UNKNOWN: Where is his office?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It does not say here, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Was he the Station Commander in Benoni where you were held?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He was the head of the Benoni police operation, as I saw it.

UNKNOWN: Was his office in Benoni where you were held?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: His office was in Benoni, yes, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Subject to correction, the headquarters of the Murder and Robbery Squad, my memory, unfortunately I cannot check it with Mr ...

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Holmes.

UNKNOWN: ... Holmes who was here and, unfortunately, had to go away on an appointment, was in Brakpan and not in Benoni at all.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well, I was not aware of that, Mr Chairman, at any time and nor was I made aware of that.  I and, Mr Chairman, I was, Colonel Human has a very large office at the Benoni police structure and his office and the office of Lieutenant-Colonel Roos are in exactly the same building.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, you can perhaps tell us, what is the significance of all this?

UNKNOWN: Well, in order to rebut, Mr Chairman, the suggestion that the statements were freely and voluntarily made.  You were told, Mr Chairman, that a letter was, when the letter was produced that it was addressed to the uniform branch, Mr, Colonel Roos, who had nothing to do with the investigation of the case.  This letter shows that it was received by Colonel Human, who was the head of the Murder and Robbery Squad and had to do much, from the time of his arrest to the time of his conviction, with the investigation of the case.  That is the point, Mr Chairman.
MR PRINSLOO OBJECTS

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, it is also important to note that Colonel van Niekerk was in charge of the security branch and he was not attached to Benoni at all, or his team.  Colonel van Niekerk was responsible for the men under his control which detained the applicant in terms of Section 29 of the Act.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, anyway, the significance of it all is something that, yes, yes.

UNKNOWN: The only point we wanted to make was that when Colonel Roos was singled out as the person to whom it was sent, that the evidence was not correct.  That is the only point that I want to make.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, now, you know, this case has taken such a lot of time and I would urge you to deal with points that are, you know, really of some significance to ...

UNKNOWN: We will do that.

CHAIRPERSON: ... to the real issues.

UNKNOWN: We will do that and I am going on to ...

CHAIRPERSON: Please.

UNKNOWN: ... the next point.

CHAIRPERSON: Please.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Does Mr Bizos require the letter back?

UNKNOWN: I would like to put it in, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Please, do hand it in.  What would be the exhibit number, R10.  Mr Bizos, this might be a convenient stage to take the adjournment.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: This letter will go in as EXHIBIT R10.  We will now adjourn and resume.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CLIVE DERBY-LEWIS: (Still under affirmation).

UNKNOWN: What I have to put to you in relation to your allegation that you made statements under duress and I would like to refer you to your hand written statement, your own hand written statement, where is it, appearing in R4, I just want to get the page, yes.  Yes, will you please have a look at R4, page 27 to page 53.  You got that?  Is that in your own handwriting?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It is in my handwriting, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Were you given paper on the 20th of April and did you hand over the completed document in your own handwriting on the 27th?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I do not recall been given paper on the 20th, but I was given paper for the purpose of writing this document.

UNKNOWN: It was not the 20th, when do you say it was?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am not sure, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Well, if I were to suggest to you that it was the 20th and that you handed it in on the 27th, are you in a position to deny it?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I cannot see it taking me a week to write this.  That is why I am in doubt as to when I commenced writing it.

UNKNOWN: Well, according to notes made by Mr Deetliefs, you were given paper at 09H35 on the 20th and you returned it or you gave it to Beeker who gave it to, you gave it to Mr Beeker at 00H20 on the 27th of the fourth 93, according to the notes made at the time.  In view of those notes, are you prepared to accept that that is more or less correct?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, Mr Chairman, because I would not give it to him at 00H20 in the morning.

UNKNOWN: Just past midnight, anyway.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No, definitely not, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Anyway, did you have ample opportunity to write out your statement on the paper that was given to you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, during the interrogation and the writing of the statement, was a lot of discussion and debate regarding what should be included in the statement and what should not be included.  You will recall that I testified that at the beginning, Colonel van Niekerk said to me that I must write what they want me to write, because if they are not satisfied with the statement, they will not accept it.