Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-01-25

MR SIBANYONI: Last question, you said the police used to bring people there and ask that you should accommodate them.  Were there such many people who were brought there?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes there were a lot of people who would be brought by the police but most of them, more that those that were brought by police, those were the people who would just come and say the police referred them to Kwamadala Hostel because they did not have accommodation.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: No questions Chairperson.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Mthembu there were just two small aspects.  The first relates to the security and the shifts and so on.  I was just wanting to understand the relationship between when shifts started and where the people were patrolling and so on.  Was the purpose of the security so that people could be accompanied on their return from work and not be attacked or - do I understand it correctly?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: No.

MR LAX: What was the purpose then, just general security?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: The Iscor Security, as our hostel was a property of Iscor and the route from Iscor would go past our hostel just to see to inspect the place.  If there something going wrong they would contact the relevant people not that they were doing something beyond that but it was just suggestions like people who were working for the same company.

MR LAX: Okay so the issue of shifts and so on that was just the shifts that the security personnel worked, had nothing to do with the rest of the other workers?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: The shift of Iscorians, the employees of Iscor.

MR LAX: I'm still no closer to understanding but it's not that important.  The second aspect was I understood you to be saying when Mr Berger was asking you about attending meetings at the arena, that you went there to address them in one of those meetings, is that right?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes on the 18th in the morning when I got a message, when I got a telephonic message that 37 people had died in Boipatong so there was a group of people who would be coming to attack at Kwamadala, that was one of the meetings that I addressed as far as I'm concerned.

MR LAX: So you called a meeting on the morning of the 18th?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR LAX: Did you have the siren run that morning to call the meeting.

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: The speaker was in my hand on that particular day.

MR LAX: And what did you tell the people who came to the meeting?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I told them if I'm not mistaken I think as they were coming in, as there were about 15, I told them that I received a call saying that Boipatong area was attacked, 37 people had died and the residents from Boipatong were all over the place and they were at a meeting, they held a meeting at the stadium and they came and they intend to come to Kwamadala Hostel to attack.  I asked the person who was giving me that message, she refused to tell me but I could still detect that the tone was a lady's voice.

MR LAX: So there were only fifteen people at that meeting?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Yes I can say so if I'm estimating.

MR LAX: Okay and what did you decide to do about this threat to your hostel?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I wanted them to tell one another because we couldn't get all the people at the meeting because it was still early in the morning and it was cold and I was on my way to the office, I was in a hurry to get to the office and do my job.

MR LAX: So you weren't concerned about the threat at all, you just told a few people and you went off to do your job?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I was shocked even the night before, I was scared and I couldn't stay with people who have already heard that an attack was imminent.  I also went to fetch my assegai, I still have that assegai, even today.

MR LAX: Now the last question related to when you spoke to Khaneyile at the gate, when you saw him coming in, you said some of those people were armed with their spears?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: There were not many people, it was just a group of young men but you could see the spears underneath though they were coming in groups you wouldn't see clearly because they were wearing coats.

MR LAX: Well didn't that strike you as odd, here they are, coming back late at night with spears under their coats?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: I have said Mr Lax that I was scared, I was shocked, I was shocked because I was woken up by Iscor Security during the night because it became clear that whatever was taking place was beyond the person who was at the gate, it was beyond that person's control.  That was happening for the very first time for the Iscor Security to come and wake me up in my room.

MR LAX: Thank you Mr Mthembu.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything arising?

MS PRETORIUS: No.

MR STRYDOM: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairperson, may I be permitted just one question?

CHAIRPERSON: Arising from?

MR DA SILVA: From Mr Lax's question please Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DA SILVA
	Mr  Mthembu  you  said  that  when the people returned they were wearing big coats 
and you saw them carrying spears.  Did you see anybody carrying a microwave oven or T.V.s or videos or anything like that coming through the gate?

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Unfortunately I did not see that.

MR DA SILVA: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Malindi?

MR MALINDI: No questions.

MS CAMBANIS: None thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, thank you, you may stand down.

MANDLA MOSES MTHEMBU: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Because we are about to rise would you mind just sitting down until we rise?
	Mr Strydom, who is your next witness?

MR STRYDOM: Richard Dlamini.

CHAIRPERSON: Richard Dlamini, very well.

MR BERGER: Chairperson through you, could I ask my learned friend if we could just have a few more names of Mr Dlamini in the order in which he intends to call them, if he can?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson there are only a few left so I think Richard Dlamini then Paulos Mbatha and then Petrus Mdiniso.

CHAIRPERSON: There is still this outstanding matter relating to the other applicant, is that Gubega I think it is?  What is the position regard to Mr Gubega.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I had a discussion with my learned friend Mr Berger.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR STRYDOM: And he said if he is on the same footing as the others he won't pursue his objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I'm aware of that.

MR STRYDOM: And that's the discussion, I showed him certain documents, the documents have been faxed through to Cape Town and he was prime facie happy with those so he can give an indication if he still wants to oppose his application or not.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, the only point I said to Mr Strydom was there was talk about an earlier application, if that falls away then you've already then made a ruling, we can't take it any further than that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, were your enquiries in regard to whether or not he had made an earlier application together with the other fifteen?

MR BERGER: No apparently he made an application on his own.

CHAIRPERSON: On his own, okay and all you were waiting for was to be shown that application?

MR BERGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you been shown his application?

MR BERGER: I don't know what the status is of that earlier application.