Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-20

MS MTANGA: Mr Dlamini I just want to get to understand the grounds upon which you suspected this victim of being a danger to your safety as ANC people.  In your evidence and also in the affidavit of Lucky Ntshetha, you have both indicated that there were continuous attacks between the two political groups.  What I want to know from you is, the nature in which these attacks took place, did you get individuals coming to attack you or assassinate your people, or did the IFP, when attacking you, come in groups?  I'm trying to understand, how did you form the grounds to suspect the victim of being there to kill one of you or to endanger your safety?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: The deceased...(no translation)

CHAIRPERSON: We didn't get a translation of...

INTERPRETER: I'm inquiring about that Chairperson.

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Teleweni is a member of Inkatha.

CHAIRPERSON: I can hear you Mr Dlamini, but the people that I'm sitting with here don't know or understand the names or the words that you're using.  Please try and use common words so that the interpreters can be in the position to understand this.  I will know this.

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: This person was a member of the IFP and once an instruction had been issued that he should die for being a member of the IFP and for harassing us.

MS MTANGA: Mr Dlamini, my understanding of your answer is that, besides the victim being seen as a danger to your safety, he was also killed because he was a member of the IFP, the IFP that had been harassing you.  Am I correct to say this?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is correct.

MS MTANGA: No further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga.  Mr Panday, do you wish to re-examination?
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY

MR MALAN: I have only one question.  At the beginning you told us that Makashleni was the person who knew the deceased.  Is that correct?  He knew that he was an IFP member?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That is indeed so.

MR MALAN: And then at some later stage you told us that Basil knew that the deceased was IFP.  Who's this Basil?  Is it the same person, or is Basil your co-accused, Basil Ngwenye?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Basil Ngwenye was one of us, we stayed together as comrades, or ...(indistinct).

MR MALAN: Yes, but in your evidence, you were referred to paragraph 8 by I think, by Adv de Jager and then you made this following statement and this is how I wrote my note.  You said:  "Basil knew that the deceased was IFP."
Which Basil is this?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: The one person with whom we were arrested or convicted.

MR MALAN: How did he know that the deceased was IFP?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: We meet these people in town everyday chanting IFP slogans, shambokking us and chasing us and Basil saw this person on the day they were beaten up in town as these IFP people were singing, singing, getting off the bus.

MR MALAN: Why did you not tell us that in the beginning when you talked about his interrogation?  Why did you actually tell us then that Makashleni arrived during the discussions and that he knew the deceased and that he told you that the deceased was IFP?  You made not mention of Basil then.

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, it was because I was not asked anything about Basil as to whether he had any knowledge of the deceased.  I was instead asked about Makashleni whom I indicated that came at the time and I said he was in a sheepskin.

MR MALAN: Thank you, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you wish to have - do you want to address informally?

MR PANDAY: Well informally I wouldn't mind, it's just ...(indistinct - not speaking into the mike)

CHAIRPERSON: I thought we had actually sensitised you to the fact that we would have liked to have disposed of Mr Ntshetha's evidence.  Indeed it might actually be to your own benefit to dispose of his evidence-in-chief and probably mainly of his whole evidence, so that there is no need for him to be here tomorrow and we don't burden Correctional Services in having to transport Mr Ntshetha here, in which event I think it really would have expedited these proceedings, if we could have been accommodated that far.  We do not think that Mr Ntshetha's evidence is going to be protracted.  We thought we had your understanding that the evidence was going to be brief and to the point, in which event it would really have expedited these proceedings if we would have been able to dispose of his evidence.  Are you sure you are unable to accommodate us?

MR PANDAY: Madam Chair, my problem is that I need to get back to my office which is not in town, because I have the clients waiting at my office and we need to go to Counsel's chambers, which is in town.  I do apologise.  I understand that, I did explain to Mr Malan that we'll try and get through the evidence, but looking at the lateness of the hour, that places a constraint on me and I must apologise for that.

CHAIRPERSON: May I make inquiries from members of Correctional Services whether it is possible for us to commence at 9 o'clock tomorrow and if that is so, if they would be kind enough to have both Mr Dlamini and Mr Ntshetha ...(indistinct) being here by half past eight tomorrow morning, to enable counsel to consult before we commence at 9 o'clock, is that possible?  I seem to be getting a unanimous agreement.  Thanks a lot to members of Correctional Services for accommodating us.

MR PANDAY: Thank you Madam.  I will be at eight, half past eight in the morning...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  We'll adjourn these proceedings until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.  Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS