Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR MPOFU: (...indistinct) that or, at least, can, you contacted me if I say between the time of the alleged abductions and your going to Durban, I did not have a meeting with you?

MS FALATI: I cannot remember Dalius.  I do not want to lie.  If I knew or I was clear, I would tell you, but what I remember is that I went to Durban to fabricate this story and when I came back I was introduced to Dr Allen Gino as a Swapo adviser.

MR MPOFU: Mr Chair, I would really be stopping here, but there was a fresh allegation.  I was really coming here to deal with this issue of manufacturing the alibi, which I think I have done sufficiently, but there has been a fresh allegation now.
 Can we just deal with, you have alleged in your evidence today that on, at some stage I woke you up.

MS FALATI: Ja.

MR MPOFU: Where was this?

MS FALATI: It was in Orlando West where I slept.  I woke up and went to Kessie.

CHAIRPERSON: (...indistinct) Thank you very much.

MS FALATI: At Mandela's place.

MR MPOFU: Yes.

MS FALATI: The original place.

CHAIRPERSON: Ai, togoman.

MR MPOFU: Well, before I run out of time, I must it to you that so-called waking you up never happened.

MS FALATI: You are a Xhosa, typical of a Xhosa, that is why you are denying everything.  All Xhosas are just like that.  You are a real Xhosa and you are Winnie's Xhosa as well.

MR MPOFU: I just want to ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.

MR MPOFU: Now, you say that when I came to see you, what I suggested that you should ... (intervention).

MS FALATI: Change the evidence.

MR MPOFU: ... change your evidence.

MS FALATI: Yes, my evidence.  I went to (...indistinct), that day I did not even testify in court.  Just remember the day I did not, I had a tissue.

MR MPOFU: No, I do not remember ... (intervention).

MS FALATI: You cannot ... (intervention).

MR MPOFU: ... you had a tissue.

CHAIRPERSON: Wait a bit.

MR MPOFU: Please, please.  Will you, okay.

MS FALATI: It is written down in the court ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: (Not translated).

MS FALATI: (Not translated).

MR MPOFU: Well, Ms Falati, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Come, come, come.  If you did this again, if you do this again, you are going to be in trouble.  Yebo.

MS FALATI: Yes, I can hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not want to be angered by you.  I have requested you many a times, please finish off Dali.

MR MPOFU: Did you, in fact, change your evidence as I suggested?

MS FALATI: I decided to tell Kathleen Sachwell.  It is in the court proceedings, because I told her.  She took me and said, Xoliswa, come back and tell the truth.  So, I did not testify that day.  The very day that I did not, that was that day.

MR MPOFU: So, you did not change your evidence?

MS FALATI: Kathy said I must not change it.

MR MPOFU: Yes, but as I understand it, at this stage ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Dali, Dali.

MR MPOFU: Oh, just one issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Dali, Dali.

MR MPOFU: I need to complete this line.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know how to count?

MR MPOFU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: One.

MR MPOFU: One minute.  Thanks.
 I just want to say, as I understood your evidence, at this stage, you were, when you were giving the evidence in, you were giving evidence, trying to protect Mrs Mandela.  Is that correct?

MS FALATI: Are you representing Mrs Mandela now?

MR MPOFU: I am asking you a question.  Please answer the question.

MS FALATI: That is what I am asking you.  Are you representing (...indistinct).  Ask me a question ... (...indistinct) (intervention).

MR MPOFU: Chair, I really ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: (Not translated).  You, I will have to want to deal with you.  Do you want to see us angry?  I am giving you a very last chance.  Rather keep quiet, rather keep quiet and wait until you are calm enough, ask for permission for me to keep quiet.

MR MPOFU: Chair, I will make it easier, I will only make a statement which she can just deny or whatever.  I will ask her (...indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.

MR MPOFU: Yes.  I want to put it to you, Ms Falati, that if this version of yours was correct and since it would have happened at the time when, before you changed your mind, as you say, before the democratic Government or whatever reason made you change your mind, that you would not have rejected, according to your, what you described your state of mind to have been at the time, that it was your mission to protect Mrs Mandela and if this allegation is correct, it could have been, it would have been consistent with your allegation and your assessing that you, actually, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: (Not translated).

MS FALATI: (...Indistinct).

MR MPOFU: You can deny or ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: No, wait a bit, I do not ...

MR MPOFU: Well, I will break it down.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you, can each, I mean, (...indistinct) helpful to have a short sentence, short question rather than ... (intervention).

MR MPOFU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ... a convoluted one.

MR MPOFU: Yes, that is what I preferred.  I was, I said I was trying to save time, obviously, I am not.  I put it to you that you never informed anybody about this so-called conversation?  You are looking away while I am asking you a question.  I put it to you that the conversation that you claimed to have had with me did not take place and neither did the report that you claimed to have made the following day or whenever you claimed to have made it, because at that time, according to you, ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no.  Please ask your question.  Make your assertion.

MR MPOFU: Yes, well, okay, my assertion is that at the time that you alleged to have had this conversation you were still hell bent or determined to protect Mrs Mandela.  Is that correct?  It was before the (...indistinct).

MS FALATI: (...Indistinct) asked me not to answer questions that are going, if a person is (...indistinct), going to be ... (intervention).

MR MPOFU: No.

MS FALATI: If a person is not to answer, if I keep quiet then I am keeping quiet, because (...indistinct).

MR MPOFU: Well, you are not doing the Bishop any justice by ... (intervention).

MS FALATI: (...Indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: I think, I mean, it will be better to leave to us the main, the inferences you may make where it does not answer the question or not.  I think it will (...indistinct), because, again, you are (...indistinct) and I do not know, I think I have got to stop you now.  I have given you ample time.

MR MPOFU: Thank you Archbishop.  Yes, the last assessment is actually on the record, she did say that.  So, I do not if ...

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I (...indistinct) then like to appeal to (...indistinct) it is not my nature, but when people get me in the wrong, then sometimes I (...indistinct) other side, but I hide it most of the time.  Thank you.

MR MPOFU: (...Indistinct).

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chair, I have one question and I (...indistinct).  What were you told by Jerry Richardson and (...indistinct).

MS FALATI: Pardon.

COMMISSIONER: What were you told by Jerry Richardson and (...indistinct)?  During your evidence you said that you were told something by Jerry Richardson and (...indistinct).  Do you remember, about ten, 20 minutes ago?

MS FALATI: Yes, you were asking about the affidavit, well, asking about (...indistinct), there are so many things (...indistinct).  (...Indistinct) you were asking about Dr Asvat, asking about Madondo, you asking about (...indistinct), you asking about that, in connection with whom?

<UNKNOWN>: Madam, you made the statement, I did not.

MS FALATI: (...Indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: I think, no, no, I am sorry.  I think you have got to be fair to her, because she did say the context or where did she make that that particular statement about these two persons.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you, if there is an (...indistinct), Dr Abu-Baker.

MS FALATI: Yes.