Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR MALAN: And then just one last question with regards, you made a statement to the police?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Because you were scared you were going to be assaulted again?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That's correct.

MR MALAN: But they don't tell you what to say?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, just before I made the statement, they took me to a little office where Chief Commandant Kloppers and Martin van der Schyff were already sitting together with the detectives, and at that stage I still said I know of nothing, and only after Kloppers and Van der Schyff were asked, "Was this man, Jaco Badenhorst involved, was he present?", and then I realised, and they said yes, and then I knew that they already spoke to the police, and that's why I made this statement.

MR MALAN: The point I'm trying to make is, in this statement, you did not refer to the role of Oelofse, you did not refer to his name and it was also not done at the trial.  Why not?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: In order to protect certain people and also to protect the plans of the organisation as I understood it, and to keep it under cover, and to protect those plans, so it doesn't come to be known.

MR MALAN: So you deliberately protected Oelofse when you made this statement to the police, is that what you are saying?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes, Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Badenhorst, this expression "the real McCoy" is not a typically Afrikaans expression?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: No, it's not.   It's the true McCoy,

ADV BOSMAN: But there are many Afrikaans people who would not know this expression, "the real McCoy"?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That could be the case, Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: I find it quite strange that all of you knew what the real McCoy meant?   Was it a general word used within the group?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: No, Chairperson, it is a general word, you hear it on the TV a lot.

ADV BOSMAN: Where did you learn this expression?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: It's a general expression, Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Your parents were on holiday at that stage, is that correct?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That's correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Where were they?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: In the Cape, Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Were you worried about them when this revolution was at the point of breaking out?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, I was worried.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you contact them and tell them that the revolution is going to break out, that either they must go home or they must make sure they're safe?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: No, Chairperson, I did not say anything of that kind to them.

ADV BOSMAN: But you really believed that this country was going to be engulfed in a complete revolution?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes, I really believed that.

ADV BOSMAN: You also said that the religion you practised then is not the same as you practise now?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That's correct, Chairperson.   At that stage, how can I say, I was not really involved in a specific church.

ADV BOSMAN: May I ask to which church you now belong?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, I'm an Israeli, the Israel Truth.

ADV BOSMAN: Has it had any effect on your political sentiment, with regards now the political connections, the religious connections you have?   So can you say that you've remained unchanged?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: I'd say that my ideology and that, what I reach for, cannot be changed, because I can see what's happening to our nation.

ADV BOSMAN: Are you still a member of the AWB?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: As far as I know, if Mr Terreblanche did not chase me away, as far as I know I am a member of the AWB.

ADV BOSMAN: With regards to the guard of honour, did I understand you correctly that "Ystergarde" was automatically part of this guard of honour?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, they performed a specific function for the AWB, and they gave a show, and behind the stage where the leader, Terreblanche, and the general staff was sitting in a semi-circle, there were members of the "Ystergarde" and we were not part of that semi-circle, we stood at the back of the general staff at a wagon.

ADV BOSMAN: Were you called to join this semi-circle?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: No, Chairperson, we were never part of the semi-circle.

ADV BOSMAN: But was this then a compliment to ask you to stand guard of honour?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes, for me it was a compliment, otherwise I would just have sat on the steps.

ADV BOSMAN: And are you saying correctly that Oelofse specifically asked you to form a part of this guard of honour?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: I'm not quite sure.

ADV BOSMAN: Who asked you to form a part of this guard of honour?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, we still received all our instructions from Kloppers.   Yes, he told us to stand a guard of honour and he said that was organised by General Japie.

ADV BOSMAN: But when you were there at the Voortrekker Monument, did you automatically go and stand at the guard of honour, or did somebody specifically call you to come and stand there?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, no, when we got there, we found Japie Oelofse there, because he stayed at the same caravan as us.

ADV BOSMAN: But that's what I mean, what was Oelofse's specific participation as far as this guard of honour is concerned?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: As far as my knowledge is concerned, it was suggested by General Oelofse to Kloppers.

ADV BOSMAN: I think we're missing each other, Mr Badenhorst, you said that you found Oelofse there at the Voortrekker Monument?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: And it was on my - referring to my question as what was your participation with the guard of honour, why you had to stand there, etcetera, because if I remember correctly, Kloppers was not there?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: No, he was there.

ADV BOSMAN: So let's start over.   You're there at the monument.   Before the time Kloppers told you that Oelofse indicated that you must go and stand a guard of honour.   Now is there a specific moment when somebody comes to you and says, "Look, we're going to have the guard of honour there and you must go and stand there", who gave you those instructions?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: I received all my instructions from Chief Commandant Kloppers and Martin, Chairperson.

ADV SIGODI: I just want to clarify one aspect with you.   When you made the statement to the police when you were arrested, did the police tell you what to write, or did you write what you knew?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Mr Chairperson, they said to me, or they guided me in what I must say, if I could put it like that, like what my, or as my lawyer said, they also guided me in what I must say.

ADV SIGODI: How could they have guided you, what did they - in respect of which aspects did they guide you?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chairperson, almost everything that occurred or happened from the roadhouse, they basically said to me that the other people have already said that, or told them about it, and I just repeated it and they just wrote it down.

ADV SIGODI: Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR DREYER: Mr Chairman, may I just, before Mr Prinsloo re-examines, just one question in relation to a question put by the committee member, Mr Malan, as well as Sigodi, pertaining to the... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: As long as you are not going back to asking... (intervention).

MR DREYER: No.