Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-15

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: The officers, I don't want to use the word officers, I just want to say the police.  The police that were there, that I found there when I arrived after 11, they were released the following day in the morning when we were going to the stadium, the following day.  Irrespective of whether they were officers or not, everybody was released the following day but there are people that I know that they wanted to go to Simms and Oosthuizen and then the people did not want them to leave and they were told that they were not going to leave, those are the people that I can still remember.  Others like Capt Makwethu, Sawuti, I don't remember them asking to leave and then being refused permission to leave.  I don't know why they did not ask to leave.  Maybe they saw that Simms and Oosthuizen were refused permission so they decided to ask for permission to leave, I don't know.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When the officers or, when those policemen were questioned by you and others about the misappropriation of funds, what were you hoping to achieve, what was the political motive behind that?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: The main objective about this funds issue was corruption because there was a lot of corruption in the Ciskei because when the unit was implemented to investigate about this corruption, Gen Nqoya disbanded that unit because it was investigating corruption.  So, the reason why they were asked in the college, it is because issues came up.  There were issues which came up because - those things which were coming up along this meeting that was not part and parcel of our objective.  Our objective was to bring back the stability in the Ciskei, but because the night was long, things would come up, as I've already said.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Were you hoping that if you've removed Brig Gqozo and the new government comes to place, were you hoping that the new government would do away with corruption and all that?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: Yes, we were hoping that and we hoped that in Ciskei people were going to vote and Ciskei would be back to South Africa peacefully without any violence.  We were hoping that the new government, as people - I was born in 1967, I didn't vote before.  I wanted to vote because there were only National Party people who were voting and my brother was killed by the ADM and I would be arrested and then beaten up by the security forces of Ciskei, so we were hoping that the new government would help us in those problems and they would help people from Gqozo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You were aware at that time that Ciskei had already pulled out of Cossap, that is concerned group of South Africa, something like that, that is where there was Inkatha, where there was Bophuthatswana, where there was - you were aware that they have pulled out of that group already and they had, the Ciskei had identified itself with the greater South Africa in terms of preparing for the elections, not so?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: I was not aware of that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: If you were not aware of that, you were aware that the meeting was called to give a briefing to the police about the elections, or their rule on the elections, not so?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: I don't know why the meeting was called.  The warrant officers were the ones who were called to the meeting.  We as such, we were not called to that meeting, I did not know why they were called there.  It was the first time that I found out that, when I arrived in the hall, they were told about the elections and when they arrived there they were addressed by other warrant officers.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So, when you were in the meeting, somebody addressed the meeting about the election, is that correct?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: I was not there at the time, I arrived when they said that Gen Nqoya had said that all the police had to be called to that meeting.  We waited for him to hear why he was calling all the police and then he did not come back until the next morning.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, I wish us to revisit section 9 sub-section 1, where it is said Acts or omissions or offences.  There you have said 50 counts of - I'm sorry, I'm sorry Chair, I've referred to the wrong one.  There you have said "Hostage taking, mutiny, kidnapping, and unlawful excess to armoury.  It's supposed to be access, I think.  Now did you say that on your application?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Can you tell the Commission who was kidnapped?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: The people who were kidnapped for example are the people like Gen Nqoya and the officers who were there because some of them went there voluntarily and some of them were taken from their houses and some of them were taken on the way, according to information I got from the police that I instructed, because I would ask them what was happening about the police and they would say that we have brought Adoni with us.  Those are the people who were kidnapped.  They were kidnapped according to my instruction because I had given out an instruction for them to go and take the police.  That is what I'm asking amnesty for, because when this was happening whatever that happened because of my actions, I would like to ask for amnesty or for forgiveness.  Those were not my intentions but before we could reach Brig Gqozo we had to unite as the police so that Brig Gqozo can see that we are all united, we are doing this collectively, that is why we sent police to take or to bring those who were not there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But by the time Adoni was fetched from his house Brig Gqozo, according to you, had already resigned, or had already informed you that he had resigned or stood down.

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: Even though he told us that he had resigned we didn't want any police to go to Brig Gqozo secretly to regroup with him so that he can arrest people at a later stage who had done this at the college.  We wanted Brig Gqozo to be alone, not to have anybody to help him, and we managed to do that because we had managed to be united with the soldiers who were helping Brig Gqozo so we were forcing the police to help us whether you liked it or not.  That is why we kept them hostage and that is why we gave out instructions to take them in their houses forcefully.  If they would find a wife and children, if that police was not there, we would take the wife and children and then the police would come and take his family, that is the instruction I gave to the police.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Then if that was the case, why then on their arrival you did not tell them that look we are forcing you to be part of us, to force Brig Gqozo to step down.  Why do you ask them about the monies and the promotions and all that?

NSIKILELO RICHMOND NKWENKWE: That question is not clear to me.  We would not ask promotion issues to Adoni.  The person who was asked about this was Gen Nqoya, promotions like the one of Capt Makubelu because he re-employed him and gave him his rank even though he was convicted, for example the constables who had 7 years service and they were still constables, they were supposed to be sergeants and Gen Nqoya would just say everything will be okay, and then we told him that we did not care about that, Gqozo has resigned and we are going to be part of South Africa, so we didn't care about him because he had misused the money and he had already confessed that he misused a certain money.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, but my question is, some of the officers amongst others, Makwethu, Adoni, Dolweni, Gqibithole, and others were asked about the misappropriation of funds.  If the objective was political why didn't you say "guys, we've called you here, we've kidnapped you for the purposes of us or of you joining us in what we want to achieve, that is forcing Brig Gqozo to step down."  Why did you ask them about the misappropriation of funds?