Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 1997-10-30

MR MTHEMBU: Will you then tell the Committee what ensued during that said meeting?

MR MTHEMBU: I was at Mansies tavern with Pappie, he is now - he's not here, Mr Molele arrived in the company of one of the Three Million members as it was the case that they would be seen a group.  We were still enjoying our drinks and on their arrival they were in the spirit of war and I could see that something was brewing because it was in their blood to fight us wherever they meet us.

MR MTHEMBU: Yes Sir, proceed.

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: When they arrived, they had an empty case of beer and I was with my comrade and they threw us with these empty bottles.

MR MTHEMBU: Did they just simply start attacking you and your fellow comrade without having said anything?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: When they arrived they said to us: "Yes, the ANC's, where are you fellow brothers and they started throwing us with these bottles.

MR MTHEMBU: What did you and Pappie then do?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: We stood up, we tried to stop them from what they were doing an it happened that I pulled my knife out of my pocket trying to stab at the deceased and comrade Pappie was able to chase the other one.  They left, I don't know what happened to them because comrade Pappie never came back, I was left behind with the deceased.
	I took out my knife and I stabbed him, he also had a knife in his possession and he took it out but he could not be in a position to use it.  I stabbed him until he ran away from me, I followed him, I stabbed him until he fell on the ground - that was outside the tavern.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir, on reading the Judgement in your case, it would appear that the deceased was attacked on - ...[indistinct] would break it down to two incidents.  The first incident was before the deceased family arrived on the scene and the second occasion ...[indistinct] aware now, his family was on the scene.  Now when you tell the Committee what happened, please do so having that in mind.

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: I do not remember whether the family of the deceased arrived, this incident took place a long time ago but I remember the deceased tried to run away and I followed him, chasing him until I stabbed him and he fell to the ground and while on the ground I stabbed him and thereafter I left.

MR MTHEMBU: Did you not at any stage whilst the deceased lay on the ground, turn him over and continued stabbing him on the front part of his body?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: I do not remember because I couldn't see anything, it was a little bit dark.  I can't remember whether I turned him over, I cannot remember everything but I remember that while he was still on the ground I stabbed him.

MR MTHEMBU: Can you still recall how many stab wounds you inflicted on the deceased?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: I'm not sure but I can estimate, I stabbed him 10 to 15 times but I don't have - I just stabbed him many times.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir, was the intention to defend yourself or was your intention to kill the deceased?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: The intention was to defend myself but I ended up killing him but my intention was to protect myself against him.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir, on what basis do you say that the deceased was a member of the Three Million gangsters?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: The deceased was a member of the Three Million gang, I used to see him on many occasions when they were attacking us.  He used to wear Nkatha T-shirts and I know where he stayed, it was around that area - on many occasions I have seen him.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir, on page 10 of the bundle, paragraph 11(a) to - to following question was
"Were the acts, omission/omissions or offences committed in the execution of an order of or on behalf of or with the approval of the organisation, institution, body, liberation movement, State Department or security force concerned"
Your answer was that:
"It was by agreement with the organisation"
Would you explain this further to the Committee, what you meant by this?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: What I meant by this is that when we launched the self-defence unit it was agreed that we should protect ourselves, not to attack or to kill the deceased.

MR MTHEMBU: But if you understand the question correct, it says
"Was the act committed to execute an order of an organisation"
And you gave the answer I just read to you, now, I want you to explain in relation to the order.

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: Comrade Thulo Machaba gave an order that we should defend ourselves against the Three Million gang.

MR MTHEMBU: The following question 11(d) where you are required to state particulars of such an order, the date thereof and the name and address of the person that gave that order, you responded as follows
"That is was the consensus and approval of the Chairperson of the ANC and his Committee Maukeng Location and his name was Dennis Bloem"
But now you've just told the Committee that the order was given by Thulo, would you explain to the Committee?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: Comrade Thulo Machaba was the commander of the self-defence unit, everything he said to us on that day was agreed to by Dennis Bloem.

MR MTHEMBU: But was Mr Bloem the ANC Chairperson of the area?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: That is correct.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir, how do you feel today about this incident?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: I feel very embarrassed and I want to direct the following words to the family of the deceased and I want to say to them it was not intentional to kill,  we were controlled by the situation of that time.  I'm really sorry about what happened, it wasn't my intention to kill.

MR MTHEMBU: Is there anything more that you wish to add to your testimony?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: I further add that I am really asking amnesty - it wasn't done intentionally, the situation during that time forced me.

MR MTHEMBU: And is that your application Sir?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: That is correct Sir.

MR MTHEMBU: Members of the Committee?
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MTHEMBU

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when you referred to Volume 1, when you said we should - you are submitting that as evidence, I think I misunderstood.  I was under the impression that it was in relation to the same incident, are you submitting that evidence in relation to the background to the story of the Three Million gang only?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is so Mr Chairman, in both applications but in the other application in bundle 3, only to the application to the incident that happened in 1991, not the one ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chair.   Mr Monyake, you told the Committee that the deceased ran away and you chased him, do you remember that?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: Yes, I remember.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, at the time when he ran away, had he stabbed you or done anything to you physically?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: He stabbed me on the hand but it wasn't a bit wound, I could block the knife and it fell to the ground and I was in a position to stab him with mine.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, I'm asking you this because I want you to tell this Committee the reason why you had to chase him if you have been repeatedly saying in evidence that your intention was not to kill him, why you had to chase him and inflict 15 stab wounds?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: I was emotional, that is the reason I chased him - the reason I stabbed him until he fell.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you think that 15 stab wounds wouldn't kill a person?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: I didn't have that thought at that time, I was highly emotional.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Am I correct that the SDU's were formed to be a defensive unit and not an offensive unit?

STEPHEN MQEKETSI MONYAKE: Yes, you are correct.