Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-02

MR SITHOLE: And after that, what happened, can you tell the Committee what happened?

JOHANNA MSIBI: After that we decided to go on strike and the Uwusa members decided to continue working.  When we were supposed to go back to work we couldn't because there were people who were chasing us away, not the people who were working with us.
	We didn't know those people.  Those people were new people, new members in that firm.  Later we agreed that we should go back to work.  I was surprised when we were attacked.

MR SITHOLE: Alright.  Can you explain to this Committee as to what happened at work in the morning of the 28th of September?

JOHANNA MSIBI: When we arrived at work, at 10 o'clock after teatime, Mr Hadebe came and he was crying.  He didn't say anything to me but he was crying and I saw him leaving and I saw him in the evening when he was throwing an object in the bus.

MR SITHOLE: And can you tell this Committee what is your feeling towards the applicant, Mzobona?

JOHANNA MSIBI: I wouldn't like to see him getting amnesty because what he is saying here is not the truth.  Everything he's said here is not true.  Even in Court he lied, even here he's lying today.

MR SITHOLE: I have no further questions, Madam Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SITHOLE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sithole.  Mr Claassen, do you have any questions to put to Ms Msibi?

MR CLAASSEN: Madam Chair, I've just a few questions I would like to put to her.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed to do so.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
	Ms Msibi, at the time of this particular incident you've just testified that you were a member of Fawu, did you also  belong to any other political organisation?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sithole, will you assist us in ensuring that her speaker is on to be able to transcribe her evidence all the time.  Right now her speaker is off.

JOHANNA MSIBI: I was just a Fawu member, not a member of any political organisation.

MR CLAASSEN: Ms Msibi, is it not true that for the most part Fawu members were also affiliated and members of the ANC?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying they were always or are you saying they were perceived?  There is a world of difference between those two.

MR CLAASSEN: Madam Chair, my apologies, I would like to rephrase it.
	Ms Msibi, is it true that most members of Fawu were also members of the ANC?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not better, Mr Claassen, to put it as I think you should put it, that members of Fawu were perceived to be members of the ANC?

MR CLAASSEN: As the Chair pleases.

JOHANNA MSIBI: Yes, some people used to view Fawu members as ANC members, but when I affiliated with Fawu it was strictly Fawu, not ANC.  I was never affiliated with ANC.

MR CLAASSEN: Ms Msibi, on this particular afternoon when you went home with this ill-fated bus, the people aboard the bus, were they exclusively Fawu members?

JOHANNA MSIBI: They were strictly Fawu members in the bus.

MR CLAASSEN: Only Fawu?

JOHANNA MSIBI: Yes, only Fawu.  Only union members could board that bus and strictly Fawu union.

MR CLAASSEN: And was this a known practice, that only Fawu members used the buses?

JOHANNA MSIBI: Yes, it was a known factor.

MR CLAASSEN: Ms Msibi, you testified that you saw Mr Hadebe throw something at the bus.

JOHANNA MSIBI: Yes, I saw him.

MR CLAASSEN: It is my instructions that he, and I put it to you that he indeed did not throw anything towards this bus.

JOHANNA MSIBI: I deny that because I saw him personally. I saw him.  There was a fence next to the hostel and they've already demolished the fence and there was a fire there and when the bus approached that fire, I saw him picking an object next to the fire and I am quite certain that I saw him and I saw him throwing that object into the bus.

MR CLAASSEN: Ms Msibi, just going back to the circumstances at your workplace before this incident.

JOHANNA MSIBI: Do you want me to explain the situation or ...

MR LAX: That is correct.  The question is, were there often fights between Fawu and Uwusa?

JOHANNA MSIBI: We were not fighting with them.  We used to talk to the white men.  We were the majority, we Fawu members, and Uwusa were the few.

MR CLAASSEN: And was there never any incident between the two parties?

JOHANNA MSIBI: Yes, after the strike we were attacked.  When we came to work, as we were changing, putting on our working clothes, one man came and told us not to do so because people were going to attack us.  Therefore, we didn't work, we left and they were the only ones who were working.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say after the strike we were attacked, can you explain to us when was this strike and on what day did you come back from the strike and the day when they tried to attack you?

JOHANNA MSIBI: When we went on strike, I don't remember exactly when was it, but I remember that it was on the 22nd of July.  We went on strike on the 22nd of July.

CHAIRPERSON: How long did you stay on this strike?

JOHANNA MSIBI: We stayed about a month or two, I'm not sure.  This was in July.  We went on strike in July and then we came back to work after two or three months.  I'm not sure when.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were injured, how long had you been at work?

JOHANNA MSIBI: I can't say exactly because I don't remember whether we returned to work in August or September.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  If there is someone amongst the victims, Mr Sithole, who could just assist us on this  small piece of information, we would appreciate it.

MR SITHOLE: We have someone, Madam Chair.  Madam Chair, he says in September.  He's not even clear when it was.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's sufficient.  The strike occurred around the 22nd of July and the workers returned to work in or about September.  Thank you.

MR CLAASSEN: Ms Msibi, what sort of problems were there at work after your return?

JOHANNA MSIBI: You mean when we returned from the strike?

MR CLAASSEN: Yes.

JOHANNA MSIBI: The only problems we found were that they used to chase us away and then after that was resolved we didn't have much problems.  I guess maybe I was ignorant because I couldn't see any problems at work.

MR CLAASSEN: How was this problem solved?

CHAIRPERSON: Which problem?

MR CLAASSEN: Madam Chair, she just testified that after it was solved ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The labour.  Do you mean the strike?  Are you referring to the strike as a labour dispute?

MR CLAASSEN: Madam Chair, if I understood the witness correctly, unless I misunderstood I think she said that problems occurred after their return.  I'm under the impression that the strike was already over by then and I don't know what other problem she might have been referring to or how this was resolved.

JOHANNA MSIBI: Police were the ones who resolved this.  Police came and they resolved this and the organiser as well was involved and the manager.  He is the one who told these people who were trying to chase us away that they mustn't do that anymore.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm on the same page.  I wasn't on the same page with you, Mr Claassen.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Madam Chair.
	Ms Msibi, just to get back to this point, you said that the police resolved the issue, how did they resolve this issue?

JOHANNA MSIBI: They called the police and they were told that we were supposed to come back to work and other people were chasing us away and the policemen were told that they should come because there were people who were harassing us.
	Then the manager told the police as well that he was going to talk to these people and tell them not to harass us.

MR CLAASSEN: Ms Msibi, can you remember when this problem was resolved, how long was this before the incident of the attack on the bus?

JOHANNA MSIBI: I would say if we went to work in September, after three weeks the bus was attacked.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you, Madam Chair, I have no further questions of this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN