Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-09

JUDGE WILSON: Now I am speaking now to the victims.  You are here because you are involved in what happened, and you have spent the morning listening to the evidence of the applicant.  Is that correct?  And I understand you have consulted with Mr Black.  You will now have a further opportunity to discuss with Mr Black what questions should be put on your behalf and thereafter to listen to his
questions, and if you have any further questions you wish to put, you will be given the opportunity to do so after Mr Black has completed his questioning.  Do you understand that?  We now propose to adjourn.  We are waiting the arrival of your relative, Hendrik Masupa, and we will adjourn till two o'clock, at the latest.  If everything is ready earlier we may start earlier, not much earlier.  Very well, we will now adjourn.  
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Black, are you ready to proceed?

MR BLACK: Yes, Mr Chairman.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: (s.u.o.)

MR BLACK: Thank you, Mr Chair.  Mr Ndlovu, to begin with, I just want to find out what school you attended and up until what standard did you attend that school?   Could you ...

PHINEAS NDLOVU: It is Davey High School or senior secondary.

MR BLACK: Till what ...?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I was at school up to my form 4, that is Std 9.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Ndlovu, is it possible to draw the microphone closer to yourself so that perhaps you can speak with ease without having to bend.

MR BLACK: As far as Mr Hendrik Masupa is concerned, how long did you know him for?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I should say three to four years.

MR BLACK: Excuse me.  Mr Chairman, may I just clear up, I just want to clear up something with the -  Thank you, Mr Chairman, I will proceed.  Now from where did you know Hendrik Masupa?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: In the shops in our street, that is Mocke Street.

MR BLACK: I can't hear what you said?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: In the shops where he usually is employed.

MR BLACK: Yes, and is it also a fact that you lived across the road from where the Masupa house was situated?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, I stayed there.

MR BLACK: Right. And as far as the Masupa house is concerned, is it not so that it is an ordinary four-roomed house, which you find in the township?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes.

MR BLACK: There is nothing more extravagant or - I just want to, I am having a little difficulty here with a matter and I don't seem to have any assistance here.
	Thank you, Mr Chairman.  The house in which the Masupas lived and which you burnt down, is no different to any other of the township houses there, it's not more extravagant, it is no bigger. Is that correct?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes.

MR BLACK: And as far as the Masupas who lived in that house is concerned, and who were the victims and whose children and relatives were killed, they, I put it to you, lived an ordinary life-style, they were not much wealthier or poorer than the people living around them, is that correct?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: From my assumption, that wouldn't be so, because they happened to be part of the mainstream of people who owned shops and shebeens around.

MR BLACK: Well, let me put it to you this way.  Who owned the shopping complex, where this dispute arose?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I take it that is Mr Masupa's relative....

MR BLACK: Sydney, it is the grandfather of say Hendrik Masupa.  ...(tape ends)

MR BLACK: ... at the time that the house was burning, I will put it to you, and if necessary, evidence, we will lead evidence to that effect, were not any wealthier than any of the other people living around.  They didn't own that shop	and were not part of the recipients of any proceeds of that shop.  So you base your assumption on the fact that because Mr - the elder Mr Masupa, the grandfather, owned the shop, therefore everybody was better off.  Is that what you are saying?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I happen to know that we usually take care of our family as the immediate and the others as well.

MR BLACK: Okay. We will come to that later.  Did you also know that Hendrik Masupa regularly worked at the shopping complex?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes.

MR BLACK: He used to go to school and after school he used to work at that shopping complex.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes.

MR BLACK: And did you know - okay, let's put it this way.  During the course of these three years that you knew Mr Masupa, how did you get to know him?  Was it, I mean, under what circumstances?  Was it because you were living opposite their house or because you met him in the shop?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Because I met him in the shop and that, that I should know of him it is because of the reports and the complaints that have been brought forward to us and the kind of attitude that it portrayed him and his cahoots when we usually conducted our operation clean-ups and thus preventing us from entering the shebeen above and getting rid of weapons that they were in possession of, our brothers who drank and afterwards.....

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, I just want to clear up one aspect before - may I?  Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Black, it is obvious that you will need time to consult with Mr Hendrik.  Can't you direct your questions to what the victims would say and have a proper consultation with Hendrik and proceed on cross-examination, as far as his story is concerned, tomorrow?   Unless you feel you know enough to continue with the cross-examination now.

MR BLACK: Yes, Sir.  I can proceed with some of the cross-examination.  The only difficulty is that Mr Masupa, Mr Hendrik Masupa wasn't present in court throughout and he was implicated and he keeps on, issues keep on coming up.  But perhaps to finish off on this line and then I will proceed towards the house issue.
	Mr Ndlovu, let me put it to you this way, that this sweeping statement of yours that Mr Hendrik Masupa had problems with the community or with your comrades, let us put it that way, by preventing them in the shops, from carrying weapons and removing weapons, he denies that and he will deny it under oath.  
	I will also put it to you that as far as your allegation made earlier, that on an occasion he was disciplined by the people's court, and lashes were administered to him, is also a lie and not true.  According to Mr Hendrik Masupa.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: That he had a problem with us as comrades, I don't know why he is denying that and as of administering lashes, probably the time we had meted out many disciplinary measures and probably my memory is not serving me well, but in one form or another we did hand out a disciplinary measure to Mr Masupa, and that is why it was felt at that point in time that we need to do something that would bring his senses around.

JUDGE WILSON: So you now say you are not sure that you administered lashes to him.  Is that what I am to understand?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: M'Lord, I am saying it is in my view that we had, but if in his view there was never anything of that
nature, then it must have meant that we did handle a case with Mr Masupa and a disciplinary measure was meted out, be it lashes or the other form of disciplinary matters, I think that is where I am having a problem.

MR BLACK: Yes.

PHINEAS NDLOVU: I wouldn't deny that as Mr Masupa is saying, that there were no lashes at that point in time. It could have been another form really.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But Mr Ndlovu, did Mr Masupa ever appear before the people's court in Russia?

PHINEAS NDLOVU: Yes, he did.