Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-13

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.  We want to start.  Adv Steenkamp, the matter of Manyamala, what is the position with that?  I thought that we will listen to the application which Mr Shayi wanted to bring, to amend his application and then to listen to the address.  What is the position with that?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairperson, they haven't arrived yet, I haven't seen them yet.  Because of the decision yesterday that we must start on time, we decided with all due respect Mr Chairman, if you would allow, to start with another matter.
	It is the only applicant Mr Chairman, and the Attorney was here as well at nine o'clock, as you wish Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I assume that Mr Manyamala is here, because I had seen the Correctional Services arriving?

ADV STEENKAMP: Correct Mr Chairman, he is here actually.  He was here very early as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any indication what has happened to his legal representatives?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I haven't seen them as of yet this morning.  They haven't contacted me, I assume there is some sort of logistical problem.  I don't know sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So I assume we will then deal with the matter of Khumalo?

ADV STEENKAMP: If you please Mr Chairman, we start with the matter of Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: We shall do so.  For the record, it is Tuesday, 13 October 1998.  It is a sitting of the Amnesty Committee.  Presiding is myself, Denzel Potgieter.  With my on the panel, on my right is Adv Gcabashe and on my left is Mr Sibanyoni.
	We are dealing with the application of Bongani Christopher Khumalo, reference AM0281/96.  Mr Steenkamp just for the record?

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I was informed and you will see there are also copies of these notices as far as Section 19(4) is concerned, all the victims names were called out again this morning outside Mr Chairman, and honourable members.  As far as we could establish, none of them are in attendance.
	I would respect Mr Chairman, with all due respect, that we proceed with this matter as it stands.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they given due notice of the hearing today?

ADV STEENKAMP: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Were they given notice of the hearing today?

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes, Mr Chairman, the copies of the notices as well as the service, acknowledgement of receipt of the services, are contained in the bundle.  At the back of the bundle, actually starting on page 48 till the end Mr Chairman.
	I was also informed that we did not receive any communication of any of the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: You are asking that we proceed with the matter?

ADV STEENKAMP: As you wish Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: In the circumstances, it appears that notice has been duly given to the persons with an interest in this application, in terms of Section 19(4) of the Act, 34 of 1995, and in the circumstances, we proceed to hear the application of Khumalo.
	Mr Mhlaba, do you want to just put yourself on record?

MR MHLABA: Thank you Mr Chairman, my name is Mhlaba, I am acting for the applicant in this matter, and the applicant wishes to testify in Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  We will proceed to let the applicant take the oath.

BONGANI CHRISTOPHER KHUMALO: (sworn states)

MR MHLABA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Before dealing with the application, I would want to make an application on behalf of the applicant, for the amendment of paragraph 9 of the application form.
	Mr Chairman, it would appear that the application as it stands, and the bundles as they are before the Committee, deals with a particular incident or incidents which happened in Soweto.  It transpired however, that the applicant also had certain incidents in the Eastern Cape which the details of, are not included in the bundles.
	However, page 51 of the paginated bundle indicates that there is a notice which was served to one of the victims, in respect of the Eastern Cape incident.   Therefore the applicant applies to incorporate these incidents of the Eastern Cape and apply amnesty in respect of this incident as well.

CHAIRPERSON: What are the details of that incident Mr Mhlaba?

MR MHLABA: The details of the incident, there was a shoot-out with police officers where a police officer was injured.  The details of the police officer is not known by the applicant, but it would appear that it is the victim referred to in page 51 of the paginated bundles.
	As well as possession of arms and explosives.

CHAIRPERSON: The application form, was that completed by the applicant himself?

MR MHLABA: That is correct, without assistance by anyone.

CHAIRPERSON: The particular matter that you are referring to in the application, is the Queenstown matter?

MR MHLABA: That is correct.  If I may further mention that the applicant has been convicted in respect of such two incidents, and he is serving a prison term.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there two incidents in Queenstown, or was it - because you have referred us to a shoot-out with the police where somebody was injured,  apparently the person who received the notice on page 51.  If you say that there were two incidents, does it relate to that shoot-out or can you give us some more detail?

MR MHLABA: The one incident relates to the shoot-out, that was in November 1993, and the applicant was a fugitive all along, and he was arrested on the 24th of February 1994 and then found in possession with explosives and arms.

CHAIRPERSON: So he was arrested for the shoot-out incident and when he was arrested, at that stage, he was in possession of, unlawful possession of arms and ammunition and he was charged for that as well?

MR MHLABA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Then he was convicted for both the shoot-out and the possession, and he was sentenced?

MR MHLABA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba, what reference if any, is there in what is before us with regard to the Eastern Cape matter?  I see that there are a few places where there is reference to Queenstown and there is a reference to Marina and I am not sure what that is and then there is a reference to Soweto.
	I am looking more specifically at paragraph 9(c) on page 4 of the record which deals with the question of victims.  There seems to be a whole sort of broad reference to things that had happened at Queenstown and (c)(ii) for example, talks about the Zola 3, Soweto and then it refers to Queenstown. 
	Then I think the word is Marina or Marino, I am not sure what is after the word, but at Queenstown.  It appears as if there is some reference, and then in (c)(iv), there is again Queenstown, reference to Queenstown, Marina, Zola 3, Soweto and I assume on the second line, it is Protea police station, Queenstown police station.
	Are you submitting that the applicant purports to deal with these further Eastern Cape matters that you are referring us to, when he refers to all these sort of places where incidents have happened?  I see also on page 5, paragraph 12(a), he does refer to some court proceeding in the High Court, Johannesburg and in the Queenstown regional court.
	And then 12(c) refers to terrorism, or the Terrorism Act, attempted murder and I assume that there is a reference to explosives and the possession of firearms.  Is your submission that these references as perhaps not entirely as accurate as one would have hoped to have been, and clearly set out in the application, really attempts to encompass all of these incidents that you are talking about?

MR MHLABA: That is correct Mr Chairman.  I have established from the applicant that he wanted to deal with all the incidents and the word which says Marina here, it purports to refer to Marienhoek squatter camp in Queenstown.  It is an informal settlement there.

CHAIRPERSON: Just off hand, if you can help, is the notice on page 51, is that the only notice for somebody in the Eastern Cape?