Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-06

CHAIRPERSON: I have even forgotten that you said you were going to ask two questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOWIES

CHAIRPERSON: Who is next in line?  Thank you Mr Lowies.  I think I am next in line, Mr Chairperson.

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Nosenga, you said this morning you don't know a Special 38 revolver at all, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I don't know.

MS PRETORIUS: On the 15th of June 1992, when you went out to Sebokeng for the drive-by shootings, what kind of weapons did you use on that day?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did mention that I was using an AK47.

MS PRETORIUS: That is on the 15th of June, not the attack on Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, at Sebokeng, that is right.

MS PRETORIUS: You see, why I am asking you that is because I have the court file here, I have copies for everybody Mr Chairperson, it will be

EXHIBIT V: I think.     I have paginated some of them, some of the Exhibits.  On page 13 Mr Nosenga, it is unfortunately in Afrikaans, it will be Exhibit V, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you able to sort out the number of pages in Exhibit U?

MR LOWIES: I have requested Mr Hanro Fredrech to have a look at it, I don't know how far he has gone with it.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well.  All right.  Which page?

MS PRETORIUS: Page 13.  There is a plea that you gave to the Court on the day that you pleaded guilty to the nine charges of murder, six of attempted murder and then also for the weapon and ammunition which you had.  I would like to refer you to page 14, paragraph 3.3.  There you pleaded
"... I had a .38 revolver and shot with it through the window as I was sitting on the right hand back seat.  I did not fire any shots on the minibus taxi."
	According to this plea that you gave in court, in the Supreme Court, you used a .38 revolver.  Can you give an explanation for that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know where they got that .38 revolver from.

MS PRETORIUS: Did you sign the plea on page 15?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, no.  This is my name yes, but this is not, yes it is me who signed here, that is my name, Matanzima.

MS PRETORIUS: Matanzima, that is your signature.  So you did sign that this is correct in court on that day?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: But they did not find me in possession of a 38.

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Nosenga, I will leave it at that.  I think it is quite clear what you are saying here.

CHAIRPERSON: You see the - you have stated that you have signed the document that Counsel has just drawn your attention to, right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, what you are being asked is at page 14, paragraph 3.3 in which you say you were in possession of a .38 revolver.

MR LAX: He handled?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, he handled, yes?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know that, I was not arrested in possession of the 38.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you say in that statement, did you tell anyone at any stage that you handled a .38 revolver?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is possible I said that, but I know that I had an AK.  There were others with revolvers or pistols.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but did you tell anyone that you handled a .38 revolver during the Sebokeng or the Everton attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't remember sir.

MR LAX: Can I just ask something, have you ever handled a revolver?  Do you know what a revolver is as opposed to a pistol?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't.  I cannot compare the two, I don't know which is which.

MR LAX: Well, why did you plead guilty to be using a 38 revolver when you used an AK47?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know how this came to be included in the document here.

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Nosenga, you told the Committee that many people came to see you whilst you were in prison.  Can you remember whether a Miss Nichols came to see you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't remember very well.

MS PRETORIUS: Did any lady, a white lady come and see you in prison and this is quite some time ago, in 1995 or in 1996?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Not in 1995, I cannot remember very well.

MS PRETORIUS: In 1996?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I don't remember very well.

MS PRETORIUS: Do you know whether Ms Cambanis visited you in prison?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know Cambanis.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cambanis is the lady who is sitting there.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't remember very well.

MS PRETORIUS: Because why I am asking you, on this court file, there is a sticker that Nichols Cambanis and Associates asked for the typing of the record of this matter on the 26th of February 1996.  I thought maybe they came to see you before they asked for the typing of the record, that is on page 1.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't remember very well.

MS PRETORIUS: When Brian and Mr Berger went to see you, can you tell the Committee what did they say, why did they go and see you, can you remember that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They said they had come to see me concerning the Boipatong matter, I mentioned this yesterday as well.

MS PRETORIUS: No, I realise that but I want to know were they the first people who came to see you in connection with Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, the first people to come to Leeukop prison, was Mongezi.

MS PRETORIUS: Yes, but in the statement that he had completed for you, there is not mention of Boipatong, so that is why I am asking you.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know.  They asked me about the Boipatong as well as Sebokeng issues.

MS PRETORIUS: Brian, can you give us any idea who Brian is?  Was he an Attorney or a person from the ANC, a person from the TRC?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He was an Attorney, he was not coming from the ANC or the TRC.

MS PRETORIUS: How do you know he was an Attorney?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He told me that he is an Advocate from Johannesburg, that he had been sent to me by Mongezi.

MS PRETORIUS: Is that what Brian said to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, when I was in Stofberg.

MS PRETORIUS: No, I realise that but you said that Brian and Mr Berger came to see you, so I just want to get it clear.  Brian said to you he was an Advocate from Johannesburg who had been sent by Mongezi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, he had come in the company of Mr Berger.

MS PRETORIUS: Do you know when that was?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot remember.

MS PRETORIUS: Can you remember which year, whether it was last year, the year before that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I cannot remember.

MS PRETORIUS: Can I ask you this, can you remember how long after you had made the statement to Mongezi, did they come to see you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot remember.  A long time expired before he came.

MS PRETORIUS: A long time expired after you had made the statement, before they came?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it has been a long time after the statement was made.

MS PRETORIUS: Is it possible that they came after you heard Victor Mthembu talking on the TV?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know.  I cannot tell a lie.

MS PRETORIUS: Did you give a written statement to them, or did they only take notes or what happened on that day?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They had a paper like this, I don't know whether they were taking notes or what.  They said to me they wanted a statement about what happened at Boipatong.

MS PRETORIUS: And you told them what had happened according to you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did.

MS PRETORIUS: You see, because it is so strange that the first document that you admit to signing, doesn't mention Boipatong at all, and the next document that you admit to signing, is the document taken in this year, 1999 that refers to Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: You are referring to pages 18 to 23?