Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MS NHLAYASI: Thank you Mr Chair.  The first application for the day is Mimi Barnabus, appearing on page 74, application ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) Selepe.  Is he present?

MS NHLAYASI: I've seen Mr Selepe, but I don't know what's the

CHAIRPERSON: Before we proceed with your matter, I'd like to speak to him please.  Where is he?  Let him come in.
Mr Selepe, last week your matter was postponed because of certain technical problems that you were experiencing with your representative.  Do you remember?

MR SELEPE: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: I'd like you to, or let me put it this way.  Are you comfortable with English or would you prefer to speak in some other language?  Because what we are going to talk about is important.

MR SELEPE: I prefer to use other language.

CHAIRPERSON: Which one?

MR SELEPE: I'm prefer Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: We will translate for you.  Is it number four?  Okay.  I hope your attorney at that time had explained to you that I was postponing the matter to today in order to give you an opportunity to obtain other legal representation.  Do you understand that?

MR SELEPE: Yes I do understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did your attorney tell you that?

MR SELEPE: They were still busy with arrangement.  Even now I'm still waiting for that.

CHAIRPERSON: What I'm asking you is, last week, did your attorney inform you that I was giving you until today to make other arrangements?

MR SELEPE: Yes he told me so.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you done so, or what is the position?

MR SELEPE: I was told that the legal representative would be here today, but it looks like we are still waiting for him.  I was told that they found one to come here and represent me.  One of the staff members from the TRC paid me a visit Saturday in prison.  He told me that there is someone, I don't know whether that is Sally Sealy or somebody else.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not concerned about Sally Sealy now.  I'm asking you, because it is your application, not hers.  What have you done about getting alternative representation so that we can finish with your application today?  That's what I'm asking you.

MR SELEPE: I did nothing because on that very last day I was promised that somebody would be organised for me, a new legal representative would be organised, so I left that in their hands because I did not have money to organise one for myself, they told me that they were going to inform me if they found one.  They came over the weekend to tell me that I did not make any attempts to find a legal representative because I know that money will be involved there.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you this now?  That somebody, or a legal representative, will be found for you.

MR SELEPE: The people who were present here last week and a group of people from the ANC.  I cannot remember who actually uttered those words, but they were people outside there, the very same people who organised legal representative for me the very first one.  Those are the same people who told me about this arrangement.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm keen to finish your application, because the three of us are stuck with your application.  It can't be heard by anybody else, because we've heard half your evidence already.  We don't know when the three of us are going to be put on the same panel again, maybe never.  That's why while we are together I would like to finish your application.  Do you understand that?  Because it's unfair to you.  Do you follow what I'm saying?

MR SELEPE: Yes, I do follow.  I am ready, but, I'm always ready all the time, but the problem is only with my legal representative.  I'm not sure if a person is allowed to come and testify without a legal representative.

CHAIRPERSON: I must say you have that right.  I wouldn't advise it 'though.  I would prefer you to have a legal representative.  Unless you have serious problems with the representatives.  You see, my advise to you also is not to rely on promises of other people.  Because it is you that is the applicant.  I think I'm going to give you until tomorrow.  See what you can do today, so that we can finish this.  And it's pointless for attorneys to come to us and say they want a record and we must postpone it, because we don't know when that application can be further heard in the future.  Do you understand what I'm saying?

MR SELEPE: Yes I do understand.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not very happy that you have been disappointed about being represented.  You were made promised and 'til today nothing has happened.  Therefore I think you must take the thing in your own hands, and don't rely on anybody else.  Do you understand what I'm saying?

MR SELEPE: Yes I understand but I'll have to talk to my family first, as far as this issue of a legal representative is concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: I have been told from another source also, that it can be that the TRC can appoint an attorney for you.  Are you happy with that?

MR SELEPE: Yes, I will appreciate that as long as I'm having a legal representative.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to ask the prison authorities to keep you for the balance of the day, so that you can talk to some TRC officials, so that that can be put into place immediately.  Are you in agreement with it?

MR SELEPE: I don't think there will be a problem at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Then you can be seated, and during the, one of the adjournments, I will instruct an official to see to it that they talk to you and arrange an attorney for you.  Okay?

MR SELEPE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You can be seated now, then.

MS NHLAYASI: Thank you Mr Chair, it's application number AM7376/97, page 74.  The name is Mimi Barnabus.  Mr Chair I also wish to bring to you attention that the name appearing on the application form is her nickname.  Her full names are Ellen Vathiswa Barnabus.

CHAIRPERSON: Spell that please.

MS NHLAYASI: Ellen, E L L E N, the other one it's Vathiswa V A T H I S W A.  Yes.  Then her ID number, it's 750902 1206 08 4.

CHAIRPERSON: Is she miss or Mrs?

MS NHLAYASI: It's miss.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Barnabus, which language would you prefer to use?  Ellen which language which you prefer to use?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Xhosa?  Very well.  It will be on number three on that, the receiver.
Have you any objection to the taking of the oath?

MS NHLAYISI: Mr Chair could we just try and exchange this?  It seems there's a problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand.  Do you swear that the evidence you're about to give will be the truth and nothing but the truth?  Raise your right hand and say, so help me God.

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: (sworn, states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Chairperson looking at the ID number and the date of birth, one of the two should be incorrect.  The date of birth on the form, as well as the ID number.

MS NHLAYISI: Can I just try and get clarification on that?  She says the date of birth as it appears on the form is the correct one, but when her ID came back it indicated 1975, that means the ID number is sort of incorrect.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you get your ID book?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: ...(not translated)

CHAIRPERSON: This year?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: They're even telling us when we were born, hey.
Yes, proceed.

MS NHLAYASI: Ms Barnabas, you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: How old are you?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: I'm 24 years old.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say in your application you were ...(inaudible) you joined the SDU?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes.  I joined the SDU in 1992 or 1993 I'm not, or in 1993, I'm not so sure.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were approximately 18 years old?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

MS NHLAYASI: Thank you.  Ms Barnabus you've just said that you joined the SDU's in 1992 or 1993.  You were at Mnaheng section in Katlehong.  Is that correct?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes, that is correct.