Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-10

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Berger, this happened a long time ago.  I am not like a computer.

MR BERGER: To go back to this affidavit that I'm reading from, will you now agree with the sentence which reads
"However"
Well let me go one sentence back:
"Some of those who arrived come to the area to work.  However others come to carry out missions and attacks in the local township"
Will you now agree with that sentence?

MR MTHEMBU: I will not agree with something that I do not know about.

MR BERGER: When according to you did the members of the Umsinga contingent begin their initiatives, going out to shoot members of the ANC, when did that start?

MR MTHEMBU: I do not know when that began.

MR BERGER: The Umsinga contingent arrived in 1990 you told us.

MR MTHEMBU: I arrived at Kwamadala Hostel in 1990 and that's when I saw them.  I do not know when they arrived at the hostel.

MR BERGER: Then just for clarity Mr Mthembu, is the reference on page 14 to a hitsquad also a typing mistake?

MR MTHEMBU: There is not a mistake but you should be careful of the year that is being referred to.  The year in this page is 1993.

MR BERGER: So in 1993 they were a hitsquad?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: In 1992 they were a self-defence unit?

MR MTHEMBU: ...[no English translation]

MR BERGER: Self-protection unit Mr Mthembu.

MR MTHEMBU: That is one and the same thing that we are talking about.

MR BERGER: A self-protection unit, I beg your pardon.  Are you saying that a self-protecting unit and a hitsquad is the same thing?

MR MTHEMBU: ...[no reply]

MR BERGER: Sorry Interpreters, the question was: "Are  you saying that a self-protection unit and a hitsquad are the same thing"?

INTERPRETER: It was asked.

MR BERGER: It didn't come through for some reason, maybe you forgot to press the button.  Would you just repeat it please?

MR MTHEMBU: In my opinion I think we may use the self-protection unit and no the word: "hitsquad".

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, let's please try and get some certainty on this.  On page 14, paragraph 29 you again use the word: "hitsquad".  You told the Committee that is not an error, you meant to use the word: "hitsquad", correct?

MR MTHEMBU: We spoke about this yesterday.  I don't know whether you do not understand it correctly.

MR BERGER: After you said to the Committee: "This was not a mistake", this particular one when I asked you, you then said: "But it's the time that I'm referring to.  I'm referring to a later time".  My question to you then was: "The contingent from Umsinga that you call a hitsquad in 1993, you call a self-protection unit in 1992 but it's the same thing", am I correct?

MR MTHEMBU: As I explained that this was a typing error.  It was the self-protection unit, not that it changed in 1993, it was still the self-protection unit.

MR BERGER: So this at the bottom of page 14 is a typing error?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: The affidavit then continues
"During the four months that I have lived at the Kwamadala Hostel I have seen units being sent out on missions, however I have not known exactly where they have been sent to or what missions they have carried out"
I take it you can't comment on that?

MR MTHEMBU: No, I have no knowledge of that.

MR BERGER: The rest of the affidavit deals with the attack on the 15th of March 1992, and you've already told the Committee you have no knowledge of that.  I just want to ask you one thing, there's an allegation here that the unit members were given arms by Buthelezi. Do you know of any Buthelezi who had access to the arms which were stored at Kwamadala Hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: I have no knowledge about that person.

MR BERGER: As far as your co-applicant Thembelani Buthelezi is concerned, he did not have access to the guns and the weapons stored at the Kwamadala Hostel?

MR MTHEMBU: I have no knowledge about that, I only knew him to be the Chairman.

MR BERGER: Well, he was also part of your unit, you would have known if he had access to guns would you not?

MR MTHEMBU: No, I would not have known.

MR BERGER: On the night of the massacre, 17 June 1992, you say you did not see any guns being handed out, is that correct?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Did you see any people carrying guns that night?

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from those who were in his company which he has already told us about.

MR BERGER: Yes.
	Apart from Mr Chonco and Mr Khanyile I believe it was.

MR MTHEMBU: As I've already explained before I had gone as part of the attack on the ANC and not to check maybe as a journalist as to who had what, who did what at what time.

CHAIRPERSON: It would help us a great deal Mr Mthembu, if you just confine yourself to answering the question.  If you did not see any other persons carrying firearms please say so.  I think it will help us to shorten this proceeding, rather than to keep on making comments.

MR MTHEMBU: I did not see anybody else.

MR BERGER: Let's get certainty Mr Mthembu.  Besides Mr Khanyile, besides Mr Chonco, you did not see any other person carrying any other firearm that night, correct?

MR MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You did not see anybody carrying an AK47?

MR MTHEMBU: No, I did not.

MR STRYDOM: Can I just object here, I just want to put something right.  Initially Mr Khanyile's name wasn't mentioned, it was Mr Mabote's name that was mentioned.  So it wasn't Khanyile, although his name was mentioned today but initially the name that was mentioned was Mabote.

MR BERGER: Well Mr Mthembu, then let's get certainty on that.  Did you see Mr Mabote carrying a gun?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR BERGER: What gun was he carrying?

MR MTHEMBU: He had a small gun.

MR BERGER: Mr Chonco, he was carrying a gun?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, he had a gun.

MR BERGER: What gun did he have?

MR MTHEMBU: An AK47.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile was he carrying a gun?

MR MTHEMBU: I don't remember what weapon he had.

MR BERGER: Alright.  Besides those three men you did not see anyone else carrying any gun the night of the attack, correct?

MR MTHEMBU: That is correct Sir, I did not see anybody else.

MR BERGER: That is before, during or after the attack you did not see?

MR MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Nobody?

MR MTHEMBU: There was no-one besides the ones that I have mentioned to you.

MR BERGER: Let me read to you what you say at page 37, paragraph 6
"We sang songs and we went out through the only main gate of Kwamadala Hostel.  We went straight under the bridge across the road and entered Boipatong.  All these people who came from Umsinga were holding the machine guns such as AK47 rifles"

MR MTHEMBU: I have just told you that Mr Chonco is the person who had the AK47.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu, I'll read it again to you, the sentence that really concerns me and you will recall in your affidavit you said there were 40 to 50 people from Umsinga and in this paragraph you now say
"All these people who came from Umsinga were holding the machine guns such as AK47 rifles"
All, not Mr Chonco, all.

MR MTHEMBU: I don't think you clarify this when you say 40 to 50 people.  What I know is that the 40 to 50 people were protecting the community of Kwamadala, not that all of them went to attack at Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, the point is this, you told us that the only persons that you saw carrying guns that night were the individuals that you've mentioned, I think you mentioned Mabote and another person.  Now in your affidavit you state that there people from Umsinga who were carrying machine guns, do you see the difference?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what counsel wants you to explain.
	Is that right?

MR BERGER: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MTHEMBU: I'll explain that.  What happened is that I do not mean that all these people had guns but because Mr Chonco was one of the people from Umsinga he is the person that I saw carrying a gun but I cannot say that I saw the others with the guns because there were many people at that gathering.