Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-03-23

MR NGCOBO: When I was staying in the police station, people came and threatened me there.  They said they would kill me if I ever go out of the station.  The station commander Mr Le Roux told me that it is better to work than stay in the station because I was eating prisoner's food.  I argued with him about that because I told him that I was supplied food by my mother.
My brother Sipho who was renting two shops at that time then visited me.  He said I must use one of his shops, which I did.  One day, during the day, the boys I was not getting along with then arrived.  At that time my brother had been told that these boys wanted to attack the said shop.  My brother then suggested that I leave that shop because it was not safe, and go to the other shop where I could be able to see people who wanted to attack me.  
	When I arrived at that shop, I received a message that these boys had already attacked the shop I had just left, and shot the boys they found there, assaulted my brother's wife and looted the shop.  They then ran away,  They had been seen doing this because it was in broad daylight and they were known.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] a little slowly please.  Can the interpreter please interpret in such a way that we don't hear his voice and his voice at the same time?  It's a bit difficult to hear the interpretation.
	You were telling us that you went to the other shop and what happened at the other shop?

MR NGCOBO: When they arrived at this shop I had left, they looted it, assaulted my brother's wife and asked where I was.  They were afraid to go to this other shop. Thereafter my mother came to the shop and asked me whether these people who were looking for me had arrived there.  My mother then sat down and asked for a cool drink and some bread, something she never did before.  I gave it to her.  She then asked me to be at home that evening because it was New Year's Eve.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say your mother came, where was it that she had come to?

MR NGCOBO: At this other shop where I was.  I then went home that evening.  As I was supposed to keep guard to my father's shop at night, I went there after I had supper.
	At midnight, when people celebrated the New Year, I hear an explosion coming from my houses direction.  When I looked at my house, I saw it was on fire.  I then called few boys and asked them to come with me, to find out what was happening at my house.  On my way, I found my sister lying on the ground, injured.  She told me that she was shot, and that I would never see my mother alive again.  I left her lying there and rushed home.  When I arrived there, I found that my mother was trapped in a burning hut.  I took her out of that hut and put blanket around her.
	Another house nearby also caught fire, but I did not go there as the people that stayed there had already fled.  The police did not come that night until the next day.  They took me and my mother to the mortuary, and I explained to them how she was attacked.  I then waited for her funeral because there were rumours that the person who was supposed to have been killed was me and not her and this was because I was already on the run.

CHAIRPERSON: How was your mother killed, what did she die of, because when you said you went to the hut and she hadn't been killed?  You took her out of the hut and then?  You haven't told us what caused her death.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please proceed.

MR NGCOBO: Oh, she was shot and not burnt.  When I arrived there she was already dead and they just wanted to burn the corpse.  I told the police that there were threats and something bad would be done to me after my mother's burial.  On the day of the funeral, I saw a group of people standing far from us, keeping us under observation.  They did not come near us.  Violence was still rampant at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Which different political groups?

MR NGCOBO: It was between members of the IFP and the ANC, in different areas.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR NGCOBO: There is a fence on one side of my house and after we buried my mother, we picked up a cap belonging to another boy I knew.  His name is Dan Cele.

CHAIRPERSON: Just tell me, where did you pick up this cap?

MR NGCOBO: It was in the garden not far from my house.  It means that is where they were hiding, waiting for the midnight so that they could attack my house.

CHAIRPERSON: So now whose name was written on the cap?

MR NGCOBO: There was nobody's name.  I know that it belonged to Dan Cele because his brother was an IFP member and Dan was an ANC member.

MR MALAN: How did you know the cap belonged to Dan Cele?

MR NGCOBO: When we were standing in the police station with his brother, Dan was brought by the police there after he was arrested.  He was wearing the same cap.  We tried to tell him to stop what he was doing and he promised to stop.  Yet he is the one who attacked us.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say that he came to attack your place, what you really mean is that you found his cap there?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.  That is why I decided to look for him because I knew how dangerous he was.  I had binoculars that I usually used to get their whereabouts.

MR DE KLERK: How did you know that Dan Cele was a dangerous man, why do you say that?

MR NGCOBO: He had killed a lot of people in the area.

CHAIRPERSON: You had seen him do it?

MR NGCOBO: They were doing this in broad daylight.  They used to arrest and try people in the kangaroo courts.  Even when I was with the police, I saw their group assaulting people and I mentioned this to the police.

CHAIRPERSON: No, my question is this, had you seen Dan Cele with your own eyes doing anything that amounted to an attack?

MR NGCOBO: I had never been near where they were doing these things, but he was always present where things were happening.  Whenever they got drunk, they used to boast and praise themselves about these things.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR DE KLERK: You had binoculars?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.  The binoculars were taken by the police.  I used to check how many were they, and if they were many, I used not to attack them.  If, however, I see that he is alone, I would then attack that person.  On this day I ambushed Dan.  I was driving a car and hid near the shop.

MR DE KLERK: What happened then?

MR NGCOBO: It was a few days after my mother's funeral.  I was looking for him because after my brother's shop was destroyed, I could no longer stay in the area.  I once stayed in iNkosi Dlamini's area, and thereafter I went to Luthuli's place.  I used to go back to the area at night and attack whoever I get, and retreat to my hiding place again.  I did this because I wanted to popularise my party because it was diminishing as we were being killed.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say: "On this particular day", what particular day?

MR NGCOBO: I cannot say which particular day. I think it was after my mother's funeral, but I cannot say how long after that funeral.

MR DE KLERK: ...[inaudible] proceed.

MR NGCOBO: I found Dan at his house.  I had seen him through my binoculars when he went to his house, and I followed him.  I found him with his blind grandfather.  When I got into the house, he looked for something under the bed to scare me.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go alone to Dan's house?

MR NGCOBO: No, I was with another boy, Dodo Mbambo.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you go to Dan's house?

MR NGCOBO: I wanted to find out whether the cap did belong to him, and who actually killed my mother.  He told me.

MR DE KLERK: What did he tell you happened?

MR NGCOBO: He told me that there were many of them who killed my mother, and he mentioned names of people I knew and did not know.  When I asked for reasons, he told me that they were actually looking for me and decided to kill my family so that I could be lured to come back.

MR DE KLERK: What happened then?

MR NGCOBO: I told the old man I am taking his grandson with me, which I did.