Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-04

MR WILLIAMS: It could be your opinion, but my opinion is that if you pretend that you do not know them or you do not want to associate with them, it is possible that you can place your life in danger.

ISGAK HARDIEN: This is how Mr Williams saw it.

MR WILLIAMS: But is it possible that it is so?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I do not believe in it, no.

MR WILLIAMS: And if it seemed, or if the gangsters thought that you were antagonistic towards them or had a negative attitude towards them, they could possibly have assaulted you.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, it's possible, if you did something to them.

MR WILLIAMS: I will come back to that at a later stage.
	Gakkie, you know that myself and Oesman, Bruce Malgas, Chris Ferndale, we were part of the Kewtown Youth Movement, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Did you attend any of our meetings?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I did attend some of the meetings when you had the Youth Movement meetings.  I was with the youth to P.E., I went with them to P.E., Chris Ferndale was the Chairperson then.

MR WILLIAMS: Maybe we should just discuss that quickly.  In 1983 I was a member of your soccer club, was that before or after that?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall, I'm not sure if it was before or after, but the Kewtown Football Union Board team went to go and play there and the Kewtown Youth Movement organised it.  So we all went down, it was the Netball and the Football, the works.

MR WILLIAMS: I will make a statement to you that the Kewtown Youth Movement was established in '81 or '82, I'm not quite sure of the year myself, but they were established then and they still exist and I'd like you to comment on that.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall the years and when they were established, I cannot answer you.

MR WILLIAMS: Well I joined the Kewtown Youth Movement at the end of 1982 or early in '83, and I assume that when you went to P.E., I hadn't joined yet.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I do not know, I do not know if Mr Williams was with us or not.

MR WILLIAMS: But you will not dispute that the Kewtown Youth Movement has existed for a long time, it existed before the boycotts.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot answer you because I do not know, it's a very old movement, I do not know.

MR WILLIAMS: And you who grew up in Kewtown and people in general know who the members of the Kewtown Youth Movement are.

ISGAK HARDIEN: The people of Kewtown?

MR WILLIAMS: Yes.  In other words, you yourself or various other people in Kewtown know that that is now the Kewtown Youth Movement walking there, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: And I will put it to you that the reason why they know this is the Kewtown Youth Movement, as you have just testified, the Youth Movement organised a lot of functions, we arranged sport, bazaars, fetes, we walked around in the community and we even distributed political pamphlets, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I think so, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: So it was very easy for one to know who the members of the  Kewtown Youth Movement were, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Now at a certain stage you provided the CCB with a list of the names of the Kewtown Youth Movement, Oesman, Chris Ferndale, Bruce Malgas, Glen Joseph, Merle Thomas, Boetie who is teaching at Spes Bona, you gave them all their names, can you give the Committee any other names of people who were members of the Kewtown Youth Movement?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot.

MR WILLIAMS: You cannot.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Because I did not know them.

MR WILLIAMS: Well if I say to you that Nathan Erasmus was a member of the Kewtown  Youth Movement, will you be able to tell the Committee yes or no?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I do not know him, I cannot say yes or no because I do not know him.

MR WILLIAMS: You do not know his name?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I do not.

MR WILLIAMS: Well if I say to you that he's in the audience, that person sitting next to Oesman, that is Nathan Erasmus.

ISGAK HARDIEN: I did not know him them.

MR WILLIAMS: But you did know that he was a member of the Kewtown Youth Movement.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Well I did not know that he was a member.

MR WILLIAMS: And how members in general, if you make an estimate, belonged to the Kewtown Youth Movement, or can you not give an estimation?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I cannot.

MR WILLIAMS: Well if I say to you that at a certain stage there were approximately 35 or even 50 members who belonged to the Youth Movement, will you be able to dispute it?

ISGAK HARDIEN: No, I cannot because I do not know how many.  If Mr Williams says it, yes it's so, I cannot answer.

MR WILLIAMS: Now the information that you gave to Slang van Zyl, the names that you mentioned, did you tell Slang that this is the management team, or these are just general members of the Kewtown Youth Movement?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall what I told him, but I told him: "These are the Kewtown Youth Movement's people."

MR WILLIAMS: But you did give a certain amount of names to him.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: And am I correct in my summation, these were names of people whom you personally knew and because of that you handed him the names?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, it's correct, because I knew they belonged to the Youth Movement.

MR WILLIAMS: And the other members who you did not mention, and the reason why you did not give him the names was because you did not know the names.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, I did not know them.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words, the list consisted only of names of people who you knew?

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you know who the managing team was of the youth?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Well, I thought it was you, your group, the people who I knew would manage it.

MR WILLIAMS: Who are these people?

ISGAK HARDIEN: It's Williams, Oesman, Chris, Bruce, Boetie.

MR WILLIAMS: Who?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Boetie.  I do not know Boetie's real name.  And Merle who lived in my block, in the same residential block.

MR WILLIAMS: So these are the names that you provided them with because you knew them?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Then apart from the one opportunity when you went with the Kewtown Youth Movement to P.E., were there other opportunities when you attended meetings?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: Well I will put it to you that from the day when I became a member of the Kewtown Youth Movement, in all the meetings that I attended of the Kewtown Youth Movement, you never attended one meeting, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: I cannot say if it's correct or not correct because I cannot recall if I attended any other meetings.

MR WILLIAMS: You could possibly have attended functions in the community which we arranged or organised, but if Kewtown Youth Movement had a meeting in a hall, then you did not attend it.

ISGAK HARDIEN: Mr Williams, I just told you I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: And Gakkie, is it so that generally the people knew that we held meetings at the Early Learning Centre, even the children knew, is that correct?

ISGAK HARDIEN: Yes, that is correct, everybody knew that you held meetings there.

MR WILLIAMS: So in other words, they were not secret meetings, if you were interested in joining you were free to come and attend a meeting, is that true?

ISGAK HARDIEN: If you say so, yes, it must be so, anyone can join.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes but I'm talking about your own experience and knowledge, in that you part of the community, although politics were going on, we differed but we still got along.

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: And you knew that I would not chase you away if you wanted to attend a meeting or if you even wanted to join the Kewtown Youth Movement.

ISGAK HARDIEN: That is correct.