Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

JUDGE WILSON: Yes but as I understood your evidence you said you have never seen Dumisa Ntsebeza before, you have never seen him on television, you have never seen a photograph of him, so how could you think Advocate Sandi was him?

MR SIBAYA: What TV are you talking about?

JUDGE WILSON: You were asked if you had seen Dumisa Ntsebeza on television, on newspapers, and you said you hadn't seen him there and you hadn't even seen him in magazines, do you remember telling us that?

MR SIBAYA: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: So you didn't know him?

MR SIBAYA: I don't know who he is.  If you see somebody on TV without a name you are not going to know who it is.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes but if you don't know who he is how can you have been looking at Advocate Sandi and thinking that he was this person whom you don't know at all?  I don't understand you.

MR SIBAYA: You said that I must point out in the room the man who was in the car or at least somebody who looks like him.  As I said he was well-built and biggish.

JUDGE WILSON: That's not what you've been saying, you've been saying that you've been looking at Advocate Sandi for some time while you've been here thinking that he was Dumisa Ntsebeza.  That is long before you were asked, as I understand your evidence, that's long before you were asked to point anyone out.  While you have been sitting there you have been looking at him.  Can you explain that?  Did somebody tell you that Dumisa Ntsebeza was going to be here?

MR SIBAYA: No.  I was looking at Advocate Sandi because he was in front of me.  I was not told anything about Dumisa being here.

JUDGE WILSON: Well who did you think he was?  You have told us you were looking at him and thought he was somebody else, who did you think he was?

MR SIBAYA: What, what do you mean who did I think it was?

JUDGE WILSON: You have time and again said you looked at Advocate Sandi and you thought he was Dumisa Ntsebeza.  Now you are saying you just looked at him.  What is the position?

MR SIBAYA: I don't know the people's names. If you have seen somebody before you - if you see somebody who looks like the person you saw then that stays in your mind.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you mean you thought Advocate Sandi looked like the person you had seen driving the motor car?

MR SIBAYA: Exactly.

JUDGE WILSON: And had somebody told you that that was Dumisa Ntsebeza?

MR SIBAYA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes you are excused from further attendance.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman I understand one of the victims wishes to ask a question, is that permissible, Mr Fourie?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie.  What is the question about Mr Fourie?
The speaker needs a mike.

MR FOURIE: (...indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: It relates to what?

MR FOURIE: Mr Chairman it relates to the day that the trial started in the Supreme Court in Cape Town.

CHAIRPERSON: That doesn't help me.  I want to know what is the question about.

MR FOURIE: It's about a piece of paper which that man told me about whilst we sat in the corridor in front of the Supreme Court in Cape Town.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well put your question to him.

MR FOURIE: You will pardon my limited Xhosa.  Who told me to speak in English.

CHAIRPERSON: .... record it would move more quickly if you did speak English.

MR FOURIE: Mr Sibaya do you remember speaking to a white person the day that the trial started in Cape Town High Court?

MR SIBAYA: I remember, he was wearing black clothing.

MR FOURIE: Did he have a beard?

MR SIBAYA: In court, well I can't remember, but it was a white man with black clothing.  It wasn't in court, at the Attorney General's....

MR FOURIE: The reason why I ask the question is because I recall meeting this man outside the court whilst he sat smoking and as is my custom I often greet people in similar situations to me, so I asked him in his own language what his business was at the court, and he said he doesn't understand fully because he's been told that the paper that he found and gave to the police has been lost.  So he doesn't know why he's at the court.  I didn't discuss anything further with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibaya you hear this?

MR SIBAYA: What, that I met a white man?  I don't know what this is all about.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you can formulate your question instead of purely telling us what transpired.

MR FOURIE: Mr Sibaya do you remember meeting and speaking with a white man outside the Supreme Court?

CHAIRPERSON: He's admitted that.

MR FOURIE: Do you remember we talked about why you were there?

MR SIBAYA: I have a vague - I remember this vaguely, a white man with a beard?

MR FOURIE: I was wearing a beard at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: And he says he remembers talking to you.

MR FOURIE: Right.  Do you remember that I asked you why you were there?

MR SIBAYA: I don't remember, but please continue.

MR FOURIE: It seemed strange to me that he should be there, an old man who seemed very timid and almost afraid.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question?

MR FOURIE: And when I asked him why he was there he said he doesn't understand fully because the police told him he's lost the paper.

CHAIRPERSON: Just put that in the form of a question.

MR FOURIE: Do you remember telling me about a piece of paper which had got lost?

MR SIBAYA: Outside the court room, I remember vaguely.  When I went there Mr Segal said that we should go upstairs because we were going to be asked questions.  I got lost and then he went to fetch me and took me to court.  Maybe that happened that day, I can't remember.

MR FOURIE: Well I am sorry if I put you under stress, that was not my intention, but I remember clearly Mr Chairman the man telling me that he could not understand why he was there because the paper that he found on the night of December 30 1993 had been
lost.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FOURIE

CHAIRPERSON: This witness is excused from further attendance.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman may I enquire whether there are any witnesses from the legal representatives of the applicants.  I know yesterday they indicated they weren't going to call anyone, before I proceed with the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think they indicated yesterday.  Is that still the position Mr Arendse?

NORMAN ARENDSE: That's still the position Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, yes.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman before I call Mr Cheqveira, Franscisco Cheqveira, Mr Chairman I do have with me a press clipping regarding the death of Mr Segal on the 9th of May 1997.  I don't know if that's going to be in dispute.  And I do have the docket which relates to the investigation of the death of Mazibuko, if that is required by the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: No we don't require it.

MR PRIOR: As Mr Chairman pleases.

MS QUNTA: We can't quite dispute someone's death Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Have you seen these?

MS QUNTA: Well I don't recall seeing that Judge but we have never disputed the death of Mr Segal.  We just said it's very inconvenient.

CHAIRPERSON: Before calling the people whom you propose calling as witnesses may I enquire whether, Miss Qunta, whether you propose calling any evidence?

MS QUNTA: .... to say to that Mr Chairman. It's firstly, my client I don't intend calling my client unless the Committee, members of the Committee or Mr Prior would like to ask him some questions, but I would like his affidavit, which is in the record, to be formally, to become formally a part of the record as well as the annexures that have been referred to.  We had a chat with Mr Prior at break this morning.  There are certain annexures including the summons issued against a certain General Snyman which I believe were part of a supplementary package but which I am not in possession of and have never in possession of.  I would like to just find out from my learned friend whether he can ensure that that becomes part of the record in addition to my client's affidavit.