Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-18

ELSIE BUWA: I did not want to give them a statement.  I asked them why they had decided to come after the attack, why were they not there when we were being attacked.

MR LOWIES: Yes, and what did they say?

ELSIE BUWA: They did not respond.

MR LOWIES: Did they not ask you what happened, whether your clothes were stolen, whether the TV was stolen?

ELSIE BUWA: They did not ask me about those things.  I tell I did not want to speak to them.

MR LOWIES: And what was reason?

ELSIE BUWA: What would I say to them, where were they when we were being killed?

MR LOWIES: Were you never taken to Vanderbijlpark Police Station to make a statement there?

ELSIE BUWA: Not at all.  I would not have gone there in the first place.

MR LOWIES: Because I have a statement here which is signed by two witnesses, stating that a statement was taken from you.  Is your name Elsie Nomhle Buwa?

ELSIE BUWA: Who are the witnesses, what are their names?

MR LOWIES: Just tell us, are your names Elsie Nomhle Buwa?

ELSIE BUWA: Yes, those are my names.

MR LOWIES: Are you the only Elsie Nomhle Buwa residing at 807 Bafokeng Street, Boipatong?

ELSIE BUWA: I'm the only one in that street.  I don't know whether there's any other person with a similar name.

MR LOWIES: Do you know what your age is?

ELSIE BUWA: No, I don't, I told you I am not educated.

MR LOWIES: Now two witnesses state that a statement was taken from you and you were requested to make your mark on a piece of paper.  I would like to show you the document - which is page 41 Chairman, of the last exhibit, being Exhibit GG.

MR LAX: Just as a matter of interest, mine is 42 but that's because I tore out the additional extra copy of the previous witness' statement.

MR LOWIES: Does your start at page ...

MR LAX: Mine starts at 41, and 42 there's a cross on the bottom of the page.  There probably was one that's cut off, right at the very bottom of page 41 as well.

MR LOWIES: I have a better copy of page 41, which indicates the mark on that.  Could it just be shown to the witness please, Mr Chairman?  It's the first page of the statement then, as far as there may be confusion.

MR BERGER: While this is being done, can I just ask what is page 1?  Because we started numbering from the index, is that wrong?

MR LOWIES: ...(indistinct) the first, Chairman - sorry, as far as it helps I have the first page which is one, Emily Mashinini.

MR BERGER: Then it was start on page 43, the statement.

MR LOWIES: I agree with Mr Lax.

MR BERGER: Ms Pretorius agrees with me.

MR LAX: As normal practice I didn't include the index in the numbering of the actual document, but anyway.

MR LOWIES: Nevertheless, I think everybody has identified the statement, Chair.  I'll check up on what the problem is.
	Now do you see a mark there on the bottom of the first page?  Is that how you would normally indicate how you sign a document?

ELSIE BUWA: I don't know who put the cross here because nobody came to me for a statement after the police had left.

MR LOWIES: Did you ever sign with a cross like that before or at all?

ELSIE BUWA: Signing where?

MR LOWIES: When you have to sign for a document, is that how you make a mark or not?

ELSIE BUWA: No, I don't know.

MR LOWIES: And you cannot recall that you were requested to put your mark on a document, by police officers stating they're taking a statement from you?

ELSIE BUWA: Where was I signing, where was I?

MR LOWIES: Apparently in Vanderbijlpark.  Can you recall?

ELSIE BUWA: I want to know the place, where was that, was it in my house or where was it?

MR LOWIES: Were you at the Vanderbijlpark Police Station at any stage to make a statement?

ELSIE BUWA: No, I have never been there.  I don't - I have not even trod on the threshold of that police door.

MR LOWIES: Do you know Mr Mkusi, Johannes Mkusi?

ELSIE BUWA: No, I do not know that person.

MR LOWIES: It may be Mkulisi Mbega.  Sorry, it's Johannes Mkulisi Mbega.  Do you know him?   The last page of ...(indistinct), Chair.

ELSIE BUWA: No, I do not know any of those persons.  I don't even think they can point me out because I cannot do the same with regards to them.  I don't know them.

MR LOWIES: Did you ever make a statement in Katlehong?

ELSIE BUWA: Where, where about in Katlehong?

MR LOWIES: Have you ever been to Katlehong, where you were requested by the police to make a statement?

ELSIE BUWA: I do not know that place, where is Katlehong?

MR LOWIES: Now I want to put the following to you, that a police officer, three police officers will apparently say that, on the face of this document, that you were requested to make a statement and on doing so they requested you to place on the document, as per page 2 of the statement which was handed to you.  If somebody could just show the mark to her please.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Lowies, were do you get the third police from?  I'm just puzzled here.

MR LOWIES: It's the two witnesses, Chairman ...(intervention)

MR LAX: No, but one is Mbega himself.

MR LOWIES: Oh yes, my mistake.  Then it's two.  It's my mistake, ja.  I thought there were two and ...(indistinct).

MR LAX: Just as another matter of clarification, Mbega's address is at Katlehong, but that doesn't necessarily mean she was at Katlehong.

MR LOWIES: Ja, I know, I was just checking whether there's  a chance.  It could well be that he was here on duty.

MR LAX: And just while we're on this sort of issue, the Vanderbijlpark, it's not clear from this document where in Vanderbijlpark this thing was taken.

MR LOWIES: It may very well be Boipatong, which ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Precisely, precisely.

MR LOWIES: Thank you, Chairman.
	But the point that I would like to raise with you is, two policemen state that they will state that they took a statement from you, at least, and that you gave them a version of what happened on the night of the attack at Boipatong, you cannot recall that?

ELSIE BUWA: No, I do not recall any of that.  Why don't I remember that?  May I ask a question?

MR LOWIES: Yes.

ELSIE BUWA: The police officers who took the statement from me, where was I when they took the statement?  I just want to know where I was when the statement was taken.

MR LOWIES: Well it was somewhere in Vanderbijlpark, either at Boipatong or at the police station, can you recall?

ELSIE BUWA: No.  As I've just told you, I've never been, I've never set foot at Vanderbijlpark Police Station.  I've never been inside the police station because I've never committed a crime, I've never injured anyone.  What would I be doing in a police station because I have no problem with anyone?

ADV SIGODI: Can I just clarify this with you?  After the attack, who did you tell about what had happened to you?

ELSIE BUWA: Who did I tell?

ADV SIGODI: Yes.

ELSIE BUWA: I do not understand your question, where is it going?

ADV SIGODI: I would like to know from you, after the attack who did you tell about this incident, about what had happened to you?

ELSIE BUWA: I did not tell anyone.  We were all attacked on the street.  Everybody knew that we were attacked.

ADV SIGODI: You didn't tell your neighbours what you had lost or what had happened to you?

ELSIE BUWA: I did tell them and they also saw the damage in the house, that is my neighbours, because they were also in the same boat.  My next-door neighbour, Mr ...(indistinct) was also attacked, it was not only my house that was attacked.

ADV SIGODI: After the attack, did you not think of laying a charge?

ELSIE BUWA: Where would we have laid that charge? Speaking for me personally, where would I have gone to lay that charge?

ADV SIGODI: I mean after such an incident a person would go and lay a charge.

ELSIE BUWA: I did not, I did not do that.

CHAIRPERSON: You've just told us that you've never been to a police station because you've never injured anyone.