Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-03

MRS MOLOI: My attitude towards the applicants is that all their hands have killed.  There is no one who is innocent.  Your presence in the planning shows that you are part of that killing.
	Therefore I am not satisfied at all that they should be given amnesty.  Because our children has been killed.  If you have killed, if you have taken the blood from the body, you have killed.  With the attitude - they kill and destroy the body so that the relatives should not be able to identify that is the thing which breaks my heart as a mother.
	My child left the country when he was 17 years old in 1976.  When he returned when he was 27 years old, he was called a terrorist.  But his history I am heartbroken because I am not able to reveal his history, what kind of a person he was.
	My child was not a terrorist.  And the way he was killed, many people were heartbroken.  Because of that, I have requests which I want to make in regard to the killing.
	Firstly I was heartbroken that I am not even able to have his photo which shows the whole body.  Up to yesterday when we were given those photo's.  I am requesting those photo's.  Those are my child's photo's.
	I am requesting the tape recorder, so that I should listen to that tape because when I look at that photo, that is my child.  I suffered the rest of my life and I want to suffer the rest of my life, looking at those photo's and listening that I should not been told that the tape has been lost.
	The other thing which I wanted to comfort my heart is that in all this ten years, we were harassed together with my children.  My daughter with whom I am today, had to leave teaching because the police should listen to the students, how they read history.
	My eldest son left for 10 years, he only arrived in 1992.  Today you see the condition of his father, he has been affected by many diseases and he was forced to retire before the right time.  All the time I used to go up and down with my children, trying to search for schools where they should attend because our name has been (indistinct) because we are called terrorists.
	The other request which I want to make Mr MC, with humility, I request that the person who is in Botswana who is called Mabila, who was gathering our children so that they should cross the border to be killed at the ditch, my husband went with my daughter to the place of slaughter, we want to see Mr Mabila so that he should see us and listen to what we would say to him.
	Because we lived under terrible conditions.  Because we were not treated fairly.  I have papers that when I buried my child, the police were harassing us because in our tradition if you are a mother, the mother is not taken up and down, but they took me to places and my husband was not going to tell, the grandmother of the child, they took me from the bedroom, I left my blankets in that fashion.
	I was taken to the police station so that they gave me instructions about the number of people who should attend the funeral.  I have all those documents.
	You would forgive me if I am taking a long time, because I want to move the pain inside.  But if I maybe given the tape to listen to, that tape, because Monti was not a terrorist.
	He has his own voice, I am requesting that with humility.  My colleagues whose children died, Mr Mogashoa and Mr Alset and the other three who were not identified, I confirm what they have said, but I make a request that those three should be exhumed, because they are South African heroes.
	They fought and they have changed this country to what it is today, that they should be reburied to where Mr Slovo has been buried.  And their photo's should be published in the papers, and they should be shown on the TV so that their parents are always waiting for them to come back.  Maybe they are still at school or doing something.
	Nothing has been done.  That is my request Mr Chairperson.  The other request because I don't know as whether it would be possible in South Africa, it is the police, it is in regard to the police.  We don't have the police in South Africa, we are still afraid of them.  Especially us who went through that kind of an experience.
	Because all the time they would paint you black, all the time.

MR BLACK: Thank you sir.

MR BLACK: .

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we have noted your requests and I suppose to the extent that the Commission will be in a position to help, it will try to do so.  Mr Visser, I should have asked you whether you have questions to Mr Moloi, it was an oversight on my part, but we can give the microphone back to Mr Moloi if you want to put one or two questions to him.

ADV VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I do have one question to Mr Moloi.  Mr Moloi, I heard you say that as far as you are concerned, some of the applicants can be given amnesty and you went on to say but not the Judas goat.
	Who are the persons who you are satisfied could be granted amnesty, could you just indicate who you are talking about?

MR MOLOI: I don't remember their names unfortunately.

ADV VISSER: Are you referring to the White police officers who gave evidence here?

MR MOLOI: Yes.

ADV VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV VISSER: .

CHAIRPERSON: I assume you have no questions to Mrs Moloi.

ADV VISSER: No questions to Mrs Moloi.

ADV VISSER TO MRS MOLOI: .

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, that is all the evidence that will be led on behalf of the relatives of the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mrs Moloi, perhaps we should also thank the relatives for having come forward to express their views.
	This is what this process I suppose is meant to be like.  Now, I assume you have no further witnesses to call Mr Black.

MR BLACK: No, I have no further witnesses Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we have come to the end of the evidence and Mr Visser, you indicated that you prefer to submit written argument as opposed to heads of argument, obviously, we would like to have written argument which should be able to assist us.
	Mr Rossouw, also indicated that he would prefer to do that.  Do you want to indicate a date by which your (indistinct) would be given to us?

ADV VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, first of all, for the sake of clarity, you specifically mentioned that it should be written argument as opposed to heads of argument, in other words full argument.

CHAIRPERSON: Full argument.

ADV VISSER: Full argument, yes that is what we intend to do.  I am not available after today, until the 19th of this month, but I undertake that within that first week after the 19th, that would be by the end of that week, would be Friday the 24th, you will have my written argument.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Rossouw, indicated yesterday that he would file his written argument around that time as well.

ADV VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It is worth mentioning that because of the problems that we have had in the past, people asking for time to file heads and or written arguments, subsequently not doing so and thereby delaying the decision, and causing a huge backlog, and causing us lots of problems and keeping people in not knowing exactly what is happening, we are of the view that in the event of any party failing to submit their written argument by the dates indicated, we will assume that they have nothing to say and we will proceed to resolve the matter.
	Mr Black, do you want to argue or do you want to submit heads of argument?

MR BLACK: I will submit argument after receiving Mr Visser's, but it should be within a week of receiving it if necessary.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.  Well, we have come to the end of our proceedings and we would like to thank everybody who helped in whatever way.  The witnesses and the families as we've already said and of course not to forget the members of the South African Police Services for having been so helpful in many ways and their other colleagues.