Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-07

MR FORTUIN: So, I assume then you didn't hear of that before you went to prison?

MANDLA MADUNA: You mean before I went to prison?

MR FORTUIN: That is correct?

MANDLA MADUNA: No, I did not hear about it before I went to prison.

MR FORTUIN: Even though as you stated, you don't read newspapers, I am just putting it to you that in the newspapers there was quite a lot of reporting of the conflict and certain names were mentioned as well.  You haven't heard of that?

CHAIRPERSON: Just for my own information, this is a conflict between Mr Sam and who else?

MR FORTUIN: I am coming to that Mr Chairperson, my line of questioning will point to where I am going Mr Chairperson, if you will just abide with me for a while.
	Were you aware that the allegations were made that Mr Victor Sam, Mbulelo Victor Sam was the person that supported Nongwe and supported him in the form of arms being in conflict with the ANC?

MANDLA MADUNA: No, I did not know that.

MR FORTUIN: You see, Mr Maduna, it is my instructions that Mr Sam was the person that was involved in the armed conflict in supplying Mr Nongwe with the weaponry and manpower in the conflict.  Were you aware of that, did somebody speak to you about that?

MANDLA MADUNA: No, I did not know that.

DR TSOTSI: Mr Fortuin, are you suggesting that this conflict to which you refer, was a political conflict?

MR FORTUIN: Not at all Sir.  I refer you to the Goldstone report.  The Goldstone Commission investigated the circumstances of the conflict in Crossroads and it came to the conclusion that the conflict was between people that usurp power, squatter leaders, and it was about housing at the end of the day, between or the acquisition of housing was one of the reasons and squatter leaders usurped power for themselves and in that way enriched themselves.  That is what the report in the Goldstone Commission at certain pages say.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, then you bring your questioning down to the realities of the applicant.

MR FORTUIN: Whilst you were in prison, did you at any point in time speak to a Raymond Ndinisa?

MANDLA MADUNA: Raymond Ndinisa, are you referring to that person?

MR FORTUIN: That is correct yes?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: Did you inform him or during your discussions, that you only became a member of the PAC after you were in prison?

MANDLA MADUNA: There is nothing that I discussed with Raymond regarding why I was in prison, or regarding PAC matters.  We generally discussed matters unrelated to PAC issues.

MR FORTUIN: I see.  Did you at one stage speak to him about the incident and only discovered afterwards that he is related to the victims of the incident?

MANDLA MADUNA: No, I don't remember talking to him about the substance of my case.

MR FORTUIN: During your trial Mr Maduna, did you at any point in time, point out to the Court that the basis of your defence would be that you were protecting the members of the PAC?

MANDLA MADUNA: Can the question please be repeated?

MR FORTUIN: Did you during the trial, inform the Court that you were a member of the PAC and that you were a member of the Task Force and that you were protecting the lives and property and the interests of the PAC?

MANDLA MADUNA: No.

MR FORTUIN: Why did you not inform the Court of you being a member, being a member of the Task Force, what was the purpose of the act you had committed?

MANDLA MADUNA: It was because the Courts were under foreign a process, so I could not explain things related to the PAC and I was trying to save myself at that time.

MR FORTUIN: I believe that you during the trial, denied that you committed the act, is that correct?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: So you were in fact lying during the proceedings, is that correct?

MANDLA MADUNA: Correct.

MR FORTUIN: Is there reason for the Court today to believe you if you lied previously?

MANDLA MADUNA: Can the question please be repeated?

MR FORTUIN: Is there any reason for the Commission to believe you today, because you previously lied?

MANDLA MADUNA: You see, this is a Truth Commission.  At the time I was in court, I did not agree that I was involved but this forum of the Commission is, I came to speak the truth and all I know about what happened.

MR FORTUIN: During the proceedings in court, why was it never put to the witnesses that there was conflict in Crossroads, gangsters were attacking PAC members?

MANDLA MADUNA: Can you please repeat?

MR FORTUIN: Why during the court proceedings, during your trial, did your counsel or yourself never put it to the Court that there was conflict in Crossroads between the gangsters and the PAC members, or the gangsters were attacking the PAC members?

MANDLA MADUNA: The Attorney himself or herself, did not know that I was a PAC member.

MR FORTUIN: I see.  Let us come to the incident self Mr Maduna, when you went into the house, did you have a time to have a look at the people who were sitting in the lounge?

MANDLA MADUNA: No.

MR FORTUIN: Did you perhaps notice that the people that were sitting in the lounge were women and a very small child?

MANDLA MADUNA: No, I did not notice.  At the side from where I was shooting, I only saw adults.  I did not notice that there may have been a child or somebody who was a woman, I only heard a woman's voice while we were in the process of shooting.  That is someone screaming.

MR FORTUIN: And when you took note of the fact that it was a woman shouting, did you stop shooting?

CHAIRPERSON: I think he heard the woman screaming.

MANDLA MADUNA: I heard a voice of a lady screaming.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do, did you stop shooting when you heard the scream?

MANDLA MADUNA: No.

MR FORTUIN: You were informed that it is gangsters, you approach a house and now you discover there is a woman in the house.  Didn't you think at that point in time that I should stop shooting, I should leave the house or the room?  Or didn't you care?

MANDLA MADUNA: The order given was that we must go inside the house and shoot.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Maduna, are you in fact saying now that the order was to go into the house and shoot every human being inside?

MANDLA MADUNA: In the dining room.

MR FORTUIN: In the dining room?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: So even if there were children and babies, you would have shot and killed them?  That is your order, is it?

MANDLA MADUNA: What I am trying to say and explain is that the order was given that we must go inside and attack.

MR FORTUIN: My question is Mr Maduna, would you have shot and killed everyone that was in that room in terms of your orders?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes.

MR FORTUIN: So even if you saw the boy or even smaller, babies, you would have still shot and killed whoever was in your sight, is that correct?

MANDLA MADUNA: What I was told at the Task Force was that you carry the order to its last.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that mean that it doesn't matter whether there were adults or children, you must carry your orders out and shoot, is that what you are trying to say?

MANDLA MADUNA: No.  The order said we must go in and shoot in the dining room.

ADV SANDI: In executing that order Mr Maduna, do you mean to say that even if there were small children and babies there, you would just shoot them in carrying out the order?

MANDLA MADUNA: Firstly, Tinage was the one who was leading us in the operation.  So he said it is me and him who were supposed to go inside the dining room and attack, and Kamagen was supposed to stay outside.  He went in, I followed.  He started shooting to the right and I shot into the left.  And he then screamed that we must withdraw, we withdrew and left.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question that is being put to you, you see is, if you saw children in the room there, would you have shot them just because you were ordered to shoot?

MANDLA MADUNA: An order is an order.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.