Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-16

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: What I would try to explain, at the time when I was supposed to identify these people, I did so.  I was working with the task force and we tried to look for these people.  I was with Mandla and Sipho at that time and we went out to look for these people.  I was armed with a 38 Special and Mandla and Sipho had handgrenades.  That was that day before this incident occurred.
	On the following day at about three to five p.m., that was when I fortunately met these people at the shop, two of them.  That was when I called them and I wanted to talk to them and Mfriyi came to me and the other one went inside.  I asked him to call the other person so that we could sort out the problem, and he said no, we should just talk between the two of us and I tried explaining to him that their actions were not acceptable and they should try to stop doing what they were doing.  That was when the deceased told me that the ANC was the only organisation in the area and that I should leave the township.

MR LAX: Sorry, we're not hearing the translation sometimes of these little interchanges.  It's worrying me a little bit.  Can you try and translate that please.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibiya, please carry on.

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: He said I should try to leave the area if I don't want to be killed.  That was when I withdrew my gun and shot at him twice.  The other one was inside the house.

MR MAPOMA: But I don't understand you.  Your instructions were to stop these guys by attacking them and when you went to Dludlu you had in mind to attack him, not to negotiate with him.  Why did you not attack these guys, I mean these gentlemen?  Why did you negotiate now with Dludlu only?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Because of the way that things happened.  I felt I should approach them in that manner, because people are different.  Some person may be easily triggered off.  Therefore I was trying to negotiate, stop them and see if we can discuss, but from what he said it became apparent that I should in fact kill him.  Unfortunately he was inside the house and I could not go in there to kill him because other people who were innocent might have been killed.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.  Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma.  Any questions?

ADV SIGODI: In which prison are you being held currently?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Sorry?

ADV SIGODI: In which prison are you being held?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: As I'm ... (intervention)

ADV SIGODI: All right.  I'll just rephrase my question.  When you applied for amnesty in which prison were you being held?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I was in Barberton.

ADV SIGODI: And when you filled in the application forms were there any people who came to give you the forms from the TRC or what happened, what was the way in which you filled in the forms?  How did you manage to get hold of the forms?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: We were given - all the prisoners who wanted to apply for amnesty were given the forms.

ADV SIGODI: And afterwards what would happen?  They would be taken by the prison officials?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: There is a person from the recreation division who used to collect them.

ADV SIGODI: And you say that you filled these forms yourself in your own handwriting?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Now, can you tell me why is it that the first form in the bundle, from page 1 to page 7, why didn't you complete it?  Why didn't you fill it in completely?  Why did you leave out certain sections?  For instance, on page 3, paragraph (c), 9(c), paragraph 10(a), 10(b) and (d), paragraph 11(a) and (b), why didn't you fill in those sections?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: With regards to some of them I did not understand them fully.

ADV SIGODI: And then when did you understand them, because in the other forms you have filled them in?  I mean did you get any assistance or what, for filling in this form, the subsequent form?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Yes, somebody did try to assist me in prison.

ADV SIGODI: Who was that?  Who assisted you?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Vendi.

ADV SIGODI: Because I notice that the other form from page 8 to page 11, the one where you say that you couldn't identify the victim and that it was a self-defence, and then there was no political objective to be achieved.  Were you also assisted by Vendi in filling in this form?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Why did you need his assistance?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: As I explained before, English as a language can be problematic, so you need somebody who understands it better.  So because he said he understood, he might be of assistance to me.

ADV SIGODI: Were there no forms written in Zulu which were given to you in prison?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: What I remember, before the TRC process began, we used to receive English forms, but when the cut-off date was extended they also supplied isiZulu version forms, but before they just used to supply the English version only.

ADV SIGODI: And then when you filled this form with the assistance of Vendi, did he say the words and then you wrote it in your handwriting, I mean if you don't understand English?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I would say it in isiZulu, and he will write in English.

ADV SIGODI: Oh, now he wrote the forms.  He filled in the forms in his handwriting?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Yes, he did fill in the form.

ADV SIGODI: But you've just told us that you wrote these in your own handwriting.

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: I was trying to explain that yes, what is contained here is mine.

ADV SIGODI: Why did he have to fill in the form for you?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Because I asked him.  He would just tell me the questions, what the questions were and I would respond to him in Zulu and he will write for me.

ADV SIGODI: This is what I don't understand.  Can you not write?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Yes, I can, but I do not write English well.

ADV SIGODI: But you went to standard 10 at school.

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: During the apartheid era things were such that the teachers did not teach in a proper manner.  We just learnt in an improper way because even when you were in high school you would still be doing things like copying from other pupils.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.  Order.  Thank you.

ADV SIGODI: Just before you were arrested at the time of this incident with whom were you staying?  Were you staying in your own home or were you staying in your - did you have your own place or were you still staying with your family?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: ...[no English translation]

ADV SIGODI: With whom were you staying at the time of the incident?  Were you still staying at your own home or did you have your own place or were you still staying with your family?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: As I explained before, I used to stay in various places.  Sometimes at a girlfriend's place or with relatives, but I did not have a stable place of abode because my family is in Durban.

ADV SIGODI: Your family and your parents?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Yes, my mother and my father.

ADV SIGODI: So you had no fixed residence in Bethal at that time?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: And the deceased, your relatives who were burnt, did you at any stage stay with them?  Your aunt and her two children?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Yes, I will sometimes stay with them and then after a while leave and return.

ADV SIGODI: And if you stayed with them how long would you stay with them?

SONNYBOY JOHANNES SIBIYA: Well, it varied because I would arrive in the evenings.  Sometimes I will stay for 5 or 3 days.  Maybe some people might see me there for a period of 2 days.

ADV SIGODI: Why do you think that your family was killed?  What reason, what do you think is the reason for your family to be killed?