Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In your evidence you said in doing this, this was when explaining the political motive, you said
"It was necessary in the course of my work at Vlakplaas".
You remember that piece of evidence?

UNKNOWN: In my application?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No, no, in evidence, in viva voce.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What was the course of your work at Vlakplaas?

UNKNOWN: The whole set-up with the Askaris ... (CHANGE OVER TO TAPE 2A) ... because of the exposure of the farm.
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: /...
MR MPSHE	307	D COETZEE

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: My conclusion will then be correct that Ace Mohema is taken care of because of the reasons you have advanced, avoiding embarrassment to the Security and concealing the illegal operations then at Vlakplaas.

UNKNOWN: Yes and the more bigger one, that if he was a plant that he would defect back to the enemy and which would cause extreme danger to the Security Policemen on the farm if a counter attack was planned as a result of the information, he might have carried back if he was a plant.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Coetzee, I am saying this to you because I find it difficult to can extract any political motive in this.

UNKNOWN: The whole Security Police set-up was a political set-up.  It was a set-up that kept the government of the day in the chair and everything surrounding that, exposing it, embarrassing the Security Police, embarrassing the apartheid government is all political.  All our activities on the farm involved the political operations.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

UNKNOWN: Schoon, was he stationed at Vlakplaas or where was his office and where was he stationed?

UNKNOWN: Brig Schoon's office was in Security Headquarters, as I explained he was the Officer Commanding Section C.  I think there was five officers at the time in Section C, and I was the officer who dealt with the small section of Section C, which in fact was very small, and that was Vlakplaas.

UNKNOWN: Were you stationed at Vlakplaas?

UNKNOWN: I had a desk in Security Police Headquarters, right opposite Brig Schoon's office, where I sat with the
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ADV DE JAGER	308	D COETZEE
other officers, Colonel Jack Buchner, Colonel Trevor Baker, Captain Willie Botha, Stan Hancock and from there the administration was done and on the farm the Askaris was only based on the farm.  So I reported to Security Police Headquarters every morning to my desk there, had my morning meeting, debriefing and briefing with all the other officers and then departed for the farm.

UNKNOWN: And Buchner's officer was sort of next to yours?

UNKNOWN: No, in the same office.  We shared, we five officers serving under Brig Schoon shared one office right opposite the passage of Brig Schoon.

UNKNOWN: And you never thought of asking Buchner listen, youv'e debriefed this man, how did you find him, do you think he is trustworthy?

UNKNOWN: I never questioned any work that Colonel Buchner or Colonel Trevor Baker did at the time ....(intervention).

UNKNOWN: Not questioning him about it, asking him over tea.  Do you know this man, what do you think about him?

UNKNOWN: No, I did not, never ever in my time being placed at Headquarters.  That was the job of Brig Schoon.

JUDGE WILSON: You told us they were the people who should have been asked, didn't you?

UNKNOWN: Well, I suppose so, yes, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: They were the people who debriefed him.

UNKNOWN: That's right, in the second stage after he has been dealt with with the branch where he was arrested, of which I had no knowledge.

JUDGE WILSON: It would have been the easiest thing in the world when the question was raised for you to have asked
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JUDGE WILSON	309	D COETZEE
Buchner and this other man, Trevor somebody, what they thought of this man, how the interrogation had gone, but you didn't do a thing.

UNKNOWN: I did, Mr Chairman.  I reported it to Brig Schoon and it was in his hands to take it from there further, not in mine.

MR JANSEN: Mr Coetzee, can you remember over what period of time the observation of Mr Mohema took place or would have taken place?

UNKNOWN: No, I cannot, but if I remember correctly, it was weeks and not months.

MR JANSEN: And would it have been more than for instance one week?

UNKNOWN: For sure more than one week, that's correct.
I know he spent some time with Almond Nofomela and if I remember correctly, Joe Mamasela, when he went over to Koos Vermeulen's group, he spent some time with Joe Mamasela too and his men and his fellow colleagues.

MR JANSEN: Prior to going to Schoon, did you have one conversation with Vermeulen about Mohema, or did you have  more conversations with him regarding these suspicions?

UNKNOWN: He expressed his concern on several occasions if I remember correctly, how many times I don't know.

MR JANSEN: Were formal investigations ever part of Vlakplaas activity?

UNKNOWN: Never in my time.

MR JANSEN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: You may stand down, Mr Coetzee.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I have been informed that the
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Committee intends working through lunch, but may I ask for a short adjournment to respond to nature's call?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling any witnesses apart from this request?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: In that case perhaps we should take a short adjournment.  The Committee will adjourn for half an hour which means we will resume at a quarter to two.

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman, may I request that myself an Mr Hugo be excused from further attendance?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly, gentlemen, you are excused.  Thank you for such assistance as you have rendered.

JUDGE WILSON: If there are any more questions raised about Brig Schoon, will you be dealing with them?  We've heard a little more about them now.

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman, as indicated, I have no clear instructions from Brig Schoon in this regard.  I have listened to the evidence here just now by Mr Coetzee and on that evidence I most certainly have no questions to ask Mr Coetzee.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS FOR LUNCH
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ON RESUMPTION

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, in the Mohema matter I am calling the brother to Ace Mohema who is now in the witness stand.  I may just mention that I made the application available to him and he studied it and thereafter he indicated to me that he would like to say something because of what he has read from the application, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

THELE NATHANIEL MOEMA: s s

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Moema, hoe old are you now?

THELE NATHANIEL MOEMA: I am 40.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you know how old was the deceased Ace Moema when he died?

THELE NATHANIEL MOEMA: I couldn't say what his age was, because I don't have the facts when he died, but he is a year older than I am.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Where do you work?

THELE NATHANIEL MOEMA: I am in the State employ.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: As what?

THELE NATHANIEL MOEMA: As a Manager at the Academy of Intelligence.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: This morning you read the application and you indicated to me that you'd like to say something to this Committee, you remember?

THELE NATHANIEL MOEMA: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You are free to do so.