Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-09

CHAIRPERSON: I think we are going to call the last witness, Misile De Villiers Nondzube.  This is our last witness and we would like order in the hall and give respect to the witness.

REV XUNDU: I would like to swear him in Mr Chairman.

MISILE DE VILLIERS NONDZUBE: (sworn states)

REV XUNDU: Thank you very much.  Mr Chairperson, he has been properly sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: We welcome you Mr Nondzube.  We will ask Ntsiki Sandi to lead you with questions on behalf of the Commission.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Nondzube, you made a request to appear in front of the Commission today.   You are here to talk about the incident that happened in March or April in 1987 at your home, where you house was burnt down, is that correct sir?

MISILE DE VILLIERS NONDZUBE: Yes, that is correct sir.

ADV SANDI: I will now hand over to you to tell us what happened on this particular day, but before I do that, let me ask you some few questions.
 Are you a member of the South African Police Services?

MISILE DE VILLIERS NONDZUBE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: When did you join the Police Force?

MISILE DE VILLIERS NONDZUBE: I joined the Police Force on the 26th of February 1970.

ADV SANDI: I understand that you are going to tell us about the problems that were encountered by the police at the time, is that correct Mr Nondzube?

MISILE DE VILLIERS NONDZUBE: Yes, that is correct sir.

ADV SANDI: You are going to tell us this before you talk about the incident that happened to you at home?

MISILE DE VILLIERS NONDZUBE: If the Commission will allow me, that will be my wish.

ADV SANDI: I hand over to you now Mr Nondzube.

MISILE DE VILLIERS NONDZUBE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  As I've already said that I joined the Police Force on the 26th of February 1970.  I joined South African Railway and Harbours Police at that time.  I was trained, I received my training that same year.
 I then came back and I worked here in Grahamstown.  Firstly let me talk about this - about what I think the people expected from the police.  But I am going to start with this - I thought that I was joining the police to help the people to work accordingly, to work for the people.
 But I noticed that there was separation in our - there was a difference between our salaries, our remuneration between the Coloureds, the Blacks and the Whites.  The Black people were earning less than any other race in the Railway station.
 Because I was a police, I had relatives and I had friends from the SAP police and I understand that this was also the case with the SAP police those years.
 Secondly, we were working, we were working for the White man, we were police boys for White people.  Even if a person would come to you, asking for a police, he will tell you that I am looking for a police, and that meant that he
was looking for a White police.
 Even if you worked for 30 years in the Police Force, if a White person would be hired, he will join the Force and he will be your senior.  Our rights were not equal such as our pension benefits.
 Whites were given pension benefits, but the Black people were not given that opportunity.  Last month I received a circular from the Finance Department saying that I have 22 years in the Police Force, but if you can count I have 27 years service.  That means that even now, there is still that separation, although Mr Mandela is a President, I can give you my appointment stating when I joined the Police Force, but they are saying that I have a 22 year old service because I am Black.
 I am not speaking on my own behalf, I am referring to any policeman present here who will know what I am talking about.  In other words, I am trying to focus to make it clear to this Commission, what is going on in the Police Force - since then to this very day.
 Police were trained at different locations.  Just a small example Mr Chairperson, a Black policeman was trained by being given an assegai during training, where a White policeman would do his drills with a firearm.  I am referring to an R1 rifle or any other firearm.
 Any policeman here with experience, will know what I am talking about.  And I am reiterating that times were different.  White policemen would take six months and Black ones would take five months so that you could not be taught everything that you were supposed to learn as a policeman.
 At work the White policemen would have an office, the Black policeman would have to do the beat, those were the
patrols.  There were rights such as the ranks which were reserved for Whites.
 I can say that after 19 years of working at the Railway police, I still held the same rank.  When they spoke to us, they said what could get you a promotion was an incident report.  If this Commission could go out and look for a lady called Nontuthuzelo Maxhegwana, she stays somewhere here, I forgot what her address is, I am just trying to give an indication of what the incidents are, I pulled her out from under a moving train because when she tried to board a train, she slipped in almost under the train, and I managed to get in there.
 I risked my life to save hers and she was injured, but God gave me the strength and I knew that my duty as a policeman was to help other people.  I pulled her out from under that moving train, but in stead of thanks for that, Maxhegwana was arrested.  That matter can be drawn even now.

ADV SANDI: Without interrupting you, I find the background that you are sketching very impressive, but I would like you to focus on the law enforcement of police, what the problems were at the time and what the problems were between the police and the people, and what the origin of those problems were.

MISILE DE VILLIERS NONDZUBE: Thank you very much, Chairperson.  In 1989, in fact since 1985 and 1986 and 1987 there were talks at Parliament that because at that time no one wanted to join the police, it was decided that the Railway police should be incorporated into the South African Police, of which I am still a part today.
 We got there at a time where there was tension and at the time where I say, in 1987 my house was burnt.  Whereas on the other side, the Government was establishing Councillors and also Council police in the form of municipal police.

ADV SANDI: Are you referring to the police which people called Amangundwana?

MISILE DE VILLIERS NONDZUBE: Yes, those.  What happened at the time is, I think that it was one of the things which elevated tensions because firstly these people were appointed in these positions here in Grahamstown.  Because I was here in Grahamstown, I will speak about what happened in Grahamstown.
 They were appointed to these positions, against the will of the community.  The community then came together, a lot of people here will know that they recruited the pensioners to vote for them and from there people were recruited to this new Police Force, which was the municipal police.  Most of them were uneducated.

ADV SANDI: Mr Nondzube, when you say that they were uneducated, could you give us an example of a standard of education which some of them would have reached?