Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-01

ADV GCABASHE: How did you get from the office to the veld.  Did you walk in a group, as part of a group?  Did a few of you get into a vehicle?  Just take us through that.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: We walked to the veld, because it was not far away.

ADV GCABASHE: Did the entire group walk to the veld, or did very few, including yourself, Muchacho and Mzwake, walk to the veld?  Just take us through that.  How many people were there?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: The whole group of SDU members were there.

ADV GCABASHE: The firearm that you used, did you personally take it at the office, or was it given to you when you got to the veld?  Help me with that.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: I took the firearm in the office.

ADV GCABASHE: When you got to the office, you have told us that you knew already that Beki was going to be killed.  Did anybody in particular say, let's go and do it now?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: No.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, Muchacho

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: The whole group of SDU's left the office to kill.  We volunteered myself and Muchacho we volunteered to do the killing.

ADV GCABASHE: So you are saying there was a short discussion at the office, and at the end of that short discussion you and Muchacho volunteered to do the killing.  Would that be correct?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes, because we were the people who pulled the trigger.

ADV GCABASHE: And it was the general consensus of the group, after that discussion, that Beki was going to be killed?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Muchacho as your SDU leader in that particular section, did he essentially lead all of you in this discussion and then later on in the killing as well?  In terms of giving orders or giving guidance as to what has to be done.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: No, we left all of us, no-one discussed anything with anyone and he did not give orders.

ADV GCABASHE: Alright.  A slightly different area.  Are there any other SDU activities that you were involved in at Tambo Slovo?  I think, for example, patrols.  Were you involved in that at all?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: It's only patrolling.

ADV GCABASHE: Patrols that involved harassing and sometimes assaulting, even in the most minor way, the people who you were dealing with?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: No.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Mr Mbatha, thank you Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Mbatha you say in this office which was used by the SDU, or the house which was used by the SDU as an office, there were about 50 members of the SDU's.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Now besides yourself and Muchacho, who else from the SDU's was there?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: I cannot remember who.  It was quite a large number of us.

MR SIBANYONI: But Mzwake was still there, isn't it?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes, he was present.

MR SIBANYONI: Now why don't you mention him at least, because you referred to him in your evidence in chief.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: The reason for me not to mention him, I know that he is in this case, he is around.

MR SIBANYONI: But didn't you expected to tell us everything what happened, if you remember some of the people, even if they are applicants here, to give us the full picture of what happened?  Are you aware of that?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: What I'm say is, Mzwake was present, and Muchacho was also present, but I cannot remember the other.

MR SIBANYONI: For how long have you been patrolling together when this incident took place?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Patrolling as SDU members, is that your question?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: I cannot remember.  It was quite a long time, I cannot remember because we used to patrol day and night.

MR SIBANYONI: Was it about six months, or about a year?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: I think it was more than 12 months, or, it was more than 12 months.  I am not sure as to the period, but it was a long time, it was happening, had been happening for a very long time.  More than a year, approximately.

MR SIBANYONI: Now lastly on this issue, if that was the case, you have been patrolling together for more than a year, and there were about 50 people at that house, obviously you will remember some of them.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Do you want to know the date when we started patrolling, or on that particular day when, I do not understand your question?

CHAIRPERSON: How, maybe - How are you not able to tell us at least some of the people who were at that house immediately before the people went to kill the deceased?  Because you said that the whole group, as far as you're concerned, was there.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: The problem is one, that the house was full and I was standing outside.  The house was so full and the space was not enough for all of us.  I had to stand outside because I couldn't get inside the house.  I was standing next to the door, but all the members of SDU's were present.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbatha I want to warn you, you're under oath.  Do you understand?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And it's in your interests to make a full disclosure as far as you can.  Correct?  Do you understand that?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Earlier in your evidence you told us you were inside the house, that's why you were able to identify the deceased with the light in the house.  Do you remember?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: ...(not translated)

CHAIRPERSON: Now you tell us you were not in the house, you were outside. ...(indistinct)

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: I was at the door and he was sitting in the dining room.  I could see him.  He was sitting in the dining room, I was standing at the door.  I could see him 'though I was standing at the door, I could be able, I was in a position to see him.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, can you not tell us then, as far as you can remember, who else of the members of that SDU was present at the house, either with you outside, or near the door, or inside under the light?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: I remember Gamsu, he is now late, and Thabo, and Manelo and some of them are now late.  Those are the people that I can remember.

CHAIRPERSON: So you only remember mostly dead people.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: No, those are the only people that I can think of.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you trying to withhold the names of colleagues?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have difficulty remembering those who are alive today who were there?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: No I cannot remember their names, those who are alive.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you able to tell us who were your colleagues patrolling that time?  Not necessarily on that day, but during that period.

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: I used to patrol with Muchacho, Mzwake, Manelo.  I cannot remember this other name.

MR SIBANYONI: Right, how was Beki transported from the house to the veld?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: We walked with him.

MR SIBANYONI: Was he walking on this own?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: We, he was walking by himself and the side, we were walking side by side with him and the others that I cannot remember their names.

MR SIBANYONI: Was he fastened, was he dragged, or was he just walking on his own?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: No he was not tied, he was just walking.

MR SIBANYONI: Now on the last aspect.  You say there was no order, nobody issued an order, that he must be killed.  Was there but a decision that IFP members should be attacked?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: That was obvious, that if we would come across the IFP members, those IFP members should be killed because they also had the same in mind.

MR SIBANYONI: At what stage was that decision taken?

MBUSI PASSION MBATHA: When we run away, when we ran away from Penduka, going to Slovo.  We couldn't meet eye to eye with IFP members and they used to harass us and they wanted us to attend their meetings and they used to whip the other with sjamboks.