Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-19

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you explain?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: May you please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you explain why, when you've now just told me you went there to get money for the liberation?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: So how could you say before that: "It happened a long time ago, I forgot about the money"?  No explanation, carry on.

MR MALAN: May I just take this further please Chair.  There may be some misunderstanding.  My initial question related to the money being carried in their pockets, you had no knowledge of that, that is what you told me, is that correct?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct Sir.

MR MALAN: And if I understood you correctly, you were waiting outside in the car, you didn't know that they took money, is that correct?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And your evidence was that the instructions given by Bhani to Ngesi and to Zuko was only to shoot?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: He gave no instructions that money was to be taken at that stage?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Money was part of the mission.

MR MALAN: How did you know that?  We know it was part of the mission, from their evidence, my question is, did you know it then?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I did not know anything at that time.

MR MALAN: But this is the point Mr Tshoane, I want you to give evidence only on what you know or knew at the time, don't give us the evidence that we can get from the other people.  We want your story and we want your full disclosure of what you know.
	You in your evidence in chief said that the instructions while you were driving, the briefing, was to Ngesi to shoot, only instruction, to Zuko, to shoot, only instruction, you now said there was no instruction at the time that you heard of that money was to be taken, is that correct?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: The instruction given was to shoot.

MR MALAN: There was no instruction at that time that you heard of, that money was to be taken, is that correct?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: The instruction given was to shoot.

MR MALAN: And at the time of the incident you had no knowledge of money, of any money, is that what you're telling us?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: You did not know that they had money in their pockets?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I did not see any money and I didn't know about it.

MR MALAN: And when you dropped them at the location, as you gave evidence, and you and Sibanda continued, you had no knowledge of any money.

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, I did not know anything about money.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

ADV SIGODI: Mr Tshoane, when you were told to drive the others, what were you told was the purpose of going to that supermarket?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: The objective of going to that supermarket was going to fight those who were oppressing us in our land.

ADV SIGODI: So you were driving the others to go and fight, was that the purpose of driving the others to the supermarket?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: My reason for driving them to the supermarket was for going to fight.

ADV SIGODI: That is only shoot the people you would find in the supermarket, do I hear you correctly?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Only?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, to shoot them.

ADV SIGODI: Was that the only purpose?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Because we were involved in the armed struggle our reason was to shoot them and to take money.  That is how we were operating then.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you know the purpose was to shoot them and to take money?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: So did you expect the others to have taken money or didn't you expect them to have taken money, when they left the supermarket, after the shooting?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you expect them to have done so?  You have told us a minute ago that the purpose was to go there to shoot people and to take money, did you expect them to do that?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is how we were operating then.  That is how we were operating during that time of oppression.

CHAIRPERSON: So that it what you expected, for them to shoot and to take money?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you taken part in other such operations?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: But you knew that that is how they operated? - "That is how we operated at the time"

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: My main function there was just to drive them that time.

CHAIRPERSON: You have just told me that you knew, or you told the Committee, that to shoot and take money was how you operated during this time, the period of your oppression.  Do you remember telling us that a minute or two ago?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, I do remember.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know, you'd never been on an operation before, how did you know that this is how they operated?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: My superiors told me that way.

CHAIRPERSON: Who?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: That is Mr Khotle.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he tell you that on this occasion?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: He told me many times.  He told me about many things that were happening in our organisation.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, I in my possession a statement which you made to the police, which I gladly hand in the moment I'm able to make copies.
	According to the statement, your warning statement to the police ...[intervention]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think it will be unfair to put that statement without ourselves also not having an insight to that statement, taken too that we have not been put in possession of that statement.

CHAIRPERSON: So he's being cross-examined on it, you'll see it.  I gather Mr Steenkamp has not seen it before now.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, my objection is that also I think even before that we are supposed to be given such information.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you asked for any?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I've asked Mr Steenkamp yesterday.  I told him that he must give us everything that is in his possession which he is going to use here.  I've told him - he was here, I told him ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: How long do you require to read this statement?  Five minutes?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Well Mr Chairman, it definitely won't be long.  It depends, if it's one page it could be two minutes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Pass it to him.  How long is it Mr Steenkamp?

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, it took me five minutes to read.  It's about 7 or 8 pages.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.  ...[inaudible]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Definitely Mr Chairman, I ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll take the short adjournment now and then we can continue uninterrupted I hope.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, I had an opportunity to go through it with my client, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you for your indulgence Mr Chairman, Honourable Members.  If I may just ask a few questions on this statement, if you would allow me.

CHAIRPERSON: Well before you do that, let us do a little bit of tidying up.  I would suggest that we mark the statement from Mr Pedro Inaquio de Costa: A1, the affidavit made by him: A2 and the statement by Jau Avelina de Castro: A3.  And that we now mark this statement, Exhibit B.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Sir, you had the opportunity to read and go through this statement, am I right?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEENKAMP: Sir, do you agree or do you confirm that this was a statement that you've made to the police, am I correct?

STANLEY MICHAEL TSHOANE: I did this statement under duress.  I was beaten, I was assaulted before I made this statement.