Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

MR HEWIT: Well, approximately 100, 10, 2, 15, 20?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I wouldn't know but they were maybe over 20.

MR HEWIT: Over 20?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Maybe about 50.

MR HEWIT: About 50?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I don't know, it could have been 20, 50, I wouldn't know, it was at night.

MR HEWIT: Well, you are a military Commander, you have to assess the strength ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewit, does it really matter whether it was 20 or 50, I think what you are really trying to get at, there was a group of people?

MR HEWIT: Yes, it was a large group, correct?  You said 20 to 50, we will leave it at that.
	You say specifically in this affidavit that one of those pedestrians insulted you, only one of them?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is so.

MR HEWIT: Did you know the people in that group, the group of 20 to 50?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, I did not.

MR HEWIT: Total strangers to you?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I didn't know them.

MR HEWIT: You say we were angry about this remark, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is true.

MR HEWIT: And you say as my car had become well known at Yamile's house, it is not surprising that they recognised us.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: Well, are you saying that the one person who in that group of 20 to 50 people, who shouted the word Glover, that would be the person that recognised you?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: You then say in paragraph 14.2, I turned my car around and stopped, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is so.

MR HEWIT: Vela and Baba Nene alighted from the car and walked towards the group of pedestrians?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is so.

MR HEWIT: When they were alongside them, they drew their pistols and fired shots at them?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: Some of the pedestrians fell down and others fled?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: I was driving slowly just behind Vela and Baba Nene?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: Then, at the end of paragraph 14.2 you say this remarkable thing.  I had given the instructions to kill these pedestrians?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is so.

MR HEWIT: Each of Vela and Baba Nene shot a few shots, not more than two or three each?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: I do not know who the pedestrians were?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: So from all that, I assume that you had no idea that all the other people in this group of 20 to 50, other than the one person you heard shout, had any political affiliation at all?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: They could have even been IFP supporters?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, it wouldn't be so.

MR HEWIT: Why not?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: The place where we were in did not indicate that there were IFP people.  There were no IFP supporters.

MR HEWIT: Well, could all the people, other than the one person who shouted the word Glover, have been politically neutral people, who just didn't want to get involved either way?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It is possible.

MR HEWIT: So they could be completely innocent in that sense?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is true.

MR HEWIT: Yet, you gave instructions to your men to kill these pedestrians?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I did.

MR HEWIT: Now, can you explain to this Committee what possible political objective you could be achieving for your masters, your party, by doing that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I will explain that in Claremont the IFP no longer existed.  Mr Yamile wanted by all means that the IFP strength should be clear and be evident at Claremont.  This group of people and this remark that you are talking about, from the IFP side, a person who makes this remark provokes the IFP or is showing the people that he is with, that here is somebody belonging to the other side, something must be done to him.
	Therefore what happened at this incident, was to show that the IFP at Claremont is there.  Such remarks shouldn't be used any how.  That was helping Yamile at Claremont.

MR HEWIT: Why didn't you give instructions to your men just to kill the one person who had made the remark to achieve that purpose?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It would have been impossible in that situation because an unexpected situation cannot be controlled.
	You can only control a situation which you have planned and premeditated, then you can tell people to avoid certain individuals.

MR HEWIT: Mr Chairman, is this the normal time that you adjourn for tea because ...

CHAIRPERSON: I am told if we can go on until quarter past eleven Mr Hewit, although eleven o'clock is the normal time, but quarter past eleven today, will be more convenient.

MR HEWIT: So you say it would have been impossible to give instructions just to shoot this man?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Take out the whole group of pedestrians, that is how you felt about it?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Please repeat the question.

MR HEWIT: Kill the whole group of pedestrians if you can, that seemed politically feasible to you?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: And for that particular incident you were apparently also given a couple of hundred rands each by Mr Yamile?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: Was Mr Yamile just a war lord in the area or what was he?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: As I have mentioned before, Yamile was feared by even the smallest or the youngest child.  Even to see his car, even a child will run away because of what he was in Claremont.

MR HEWIT: Yes, you also say here that your car had become well known at Yamile's house, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: And that therefore it was not surprising that they recognised us?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: Well, what happened to this whole requirement that you believed so strongly in, that you should operate clandestinely if your car had become so well known?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: At that time this car wasn't used for anything.  It was only to transport the guards to Yamile's properties.
	Sometimes it would accompany him because it was difficult for him to move around in the area, he had to be escorted.  That is how the car became known.

MR HEWIT: You see, I want to suggest to you that the probabilities here is that you were simply a hit man for a war lord in the area and for which you were remunerated by that specific individual and you brazenly went around the township, not worried about whether you were seen or not, isn't that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is not so.

MR HEWIT: And that this sort of incident has absolutely nothing to do with the political objectives of the Inkatha Freedom Party.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is not so.

MR HEWIT: Because if they had, and if you were true to what you said earlier on, you wouldn't have allowed this car to have been seen and yourself to be associated with Yamile.  What do you say about that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I don't have a response to that.

MR HEWIT: I am also suggesting to you that if these were political objectives and the object was just to kill UDF people and not innocents who may be neutral, you would never have given instructions to your men to fire into this group with the chance of killing innocents?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is not so.

MR HEWIT: Do you agree with me that what you did on this occasion, sounds just like the situation that you described in Mpumalanga and Hammersdale before you came in?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, it sounds so.

MR HEWIT: It sounds no different, does it?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I don't understand the question.