Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-23

REV XUNDU: Mr Chairman, I would now call upon Lizzie Denya.  Are you all going to give testimony, so I am going to swear you in?  What is your name?

THOBEKA: My name is Thobeka.

REV XUNDU: I'll start with you Lizzie, to swear you in.  Stand.

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

REV XUNDU: Thank you.

BONGANI FINCA: We thank Mr Xundu and you are the last from Molteno to be testifying.  Then I am going to ask Revd Xundu to ask questions.  Whatever questions we may be having as the Commission, over to you Revd Xundu.

REV XUNDU: Thank.  Ms Denya, what is your clan name?

UNKNOWN: My clan name is Nomasede Quaba.

REV XUNDU: And the clan name for your people where you are married?

UNKNOWN: They are Totosexem Mandlanini.

REV XUNDU: Now, I would ask these few questions.  How many children do you have?

UNKNOWN: I have 10 children.

REV XUNDU: Please control yourselves.  Please do so, control yourselves.  So it means you have really expanded that family and we thank you on behalf of the Totosexem family.
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 So you say you have come here to represent Keli.  Was he a scholar at the time all this happened to him?

UNKNOWN: There was nothing that was happening to Keli at that time.

REV XUNDU: Was he going to school?

UNKNOWN: No, he wasn't.

REV XUNDU: How old was he?

UNKNOWN: He was quite old, because he was from work already.  He was born in 1952.  He had been a worker before.

REV XUNDU: Were there any organisations, political organisations there where you stayed?

UNKNOWN: There were.

REV XUNDU: What organisations were those?

UNKNOWN: There were the ANC because the National Party, we didn't know anything about it, that was how it was.

REV XUNDU: What do you think was the cause of this harassment of Keli by the police?

UNKNOWN: This harassment came about as expected because they used to arrest Keli as there was this unrest in our locality.  Even then he had just come from jail and had appeared in court during the festive season.
 Then he had gone away to enjoy his New Year's day somewhere, he went with his sister in Cradock.  After New Year's day, on a Wednesday they came back.  Then on Friday, that very same week he was shot at.

REV XUNDU: Was he shot at when he was just moving leisurely?

UNKNOWN: What happened is, I was at work and then after work I went to a place, there was a woman who had died and that was on a Friday, so I went to a prayer meeting there.
 The sister came to me to call me to go back home 
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because Keli was fighting with the police.  So I went out, rushing, then he asked me to use another road home.  And then I noticed that she feared telling me the truth, because when I got there I found a lot of people together with policemen, White policemen.
 I went in and then people stopped me, they were saying, hey, you are going to be shot at.  Then I pushed my way through, I could see there he was, he had a cap on the side written the ANC on one side of his hand.
 And he was laying down there.  Then they asked him to take, they wanted to shoot at me, then I did not want to touch him, they asked me not to.
 Then I said it is the end because I could see that he was dead.  I even said, even Jesus died for the truth, then they them what is she saying?
 Then they took him whilst I was there and they said yes, we are through, everything in Molteno is going to go well.  Then they just threw him in the back of the van.

REV XUNDU: Were there any police you knew there?

UNKNOWN: I knew the police had shot him.

REV XUNDU: Tell us.

UNKNOWN: They are Lumkile, Skwenkwe, Badansile.  These policemen were the "Green Flies".

REV XUNDU: So they took him to the mortuary?

UNKNOWN: Yes, they did and I went home.  At home, I took his brother and it was at sunset.  I decided to go to tell my madam so that she could accompany me to the charge office.
 When we got there we found all the police there.  Then I told them that I had come to report that one of the policeman had shot at my son.  This I said to Fourie, who 
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did not answer me.
 Then my madam asked why had they killed my son.  Then they said my son had taken after me because my son had killed people.
 And he was making people not to work, so he should go away, they even said "fuck off" to me.  So we went out together with the White woman.

REV XUNDU: Did you know who this policeman was?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I know it was Els.  The very Els who you spoke of earlier on.

REV XUNDU: Go on.  You made funeral arrangements?

UNKNOWN: What happened is, on Monday I went to brief a lawyer here in Queenstown.  They phoned and he came on a Tuesday.  He took a statement there at the location and then he went away.

REV XUNDU: Do you have the name of the lawyer?

UNKNOWN: Yes, it is Hintsa Siwisa.  Then we remained waiting.  On Monday, you must know, we were not happy.  The policemen were coming to harass us.
 On Wednesday they came and I was where I work.  At home I was told that they have taken away my husband, so I made a follow up.  When I got to the charge office, I asked them where my husband was.
 They said we don't know, then one indicated that he had gone that other way, then I followed and I found them, they were hiding him somewhere and they were asking him to sign.
 And I asked why, then they said, no he should sign and take the body of his son to go and bury him.
 Then they said if he doesn't want, we are going to throw it away.  So I took my husband out, they were saying abusing words to me.
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Then we went back home, when we went home, we gathered as a family and residents, we phoned the lawyer who said to us we should go and sign so as to get the body.
 We then buried the body on the 15th.  The post-mortem was done without our consent.

REV XUNDU: You don't know which Sergeant was responsible for that.  You said earlier on, on the 5th of January when you went to the police, you were in the company of the White woman - what was her name?

UNKNOWN: She was Mrs Minnie Doris Pretorius.

REV XUNDU: Was she crying or was she also worried?

UNKNOWN: No, yes, she was unhappy, but she changed only when they said the people are not going to work, because of my son.  Then she changed her attitude then.

REV XUNDU: Did she not then ill-treat you thereafter?

UNKNOWN: No, she did not.  No, she didn't.  People who ill-treated me and tortured me, were the police.

REV XUNDU: Then you got the body without anybody telling you about the  post-mortem?

UNKNOWN: Yes, we went for the body on the 14th and the funeral was on the 15th.  We never slept on that Friday, even on the night vigil it was very difficult in the morning, at seven a lot of policemen and soldiers came and they harassed us, they said take this body and go and bury this person.
 Then we said, we are not going to do it.  They wanted to kill the brother, then we said we were not going to bury this person hurriedly, we were going to bury him at the time that we had set.  There was also this Els and some other very huge policemen that we did not even know.
 They were tossing us from left to right.  At about 
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twelve, they blocked the way so that the cars should not proceed.

REV XUNDU: You said earlier on this police harassed you too.  Did they actually torture you?