Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-02

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning ladies and gentlemen.  We intended to start and 10 o'clock but unfortunately there was some delay.  We do apologise for that delay.
	This is the Amnesty Hearing in which 15 applicants are seeking amnesty for the Katlehong massacre.  Let me introduce the members of this Committee.  On my far left we have Mr Sibanyoni who is an attorney in Pretoria and next to him we have Mr Wynand Malan who a Commissioner in the Truth and Reconciliation.  On my right we have Advocate Motata of the Johannesburg bar.  My name is Sandile Ngcobo, I'm a Judge of the High Court in Cape Town.
	Representing the applicants, I gather that it's Advocate Madasa of the Johannesburg bar.  And leading the evidence on behalf of the Truth Commission is Mr Zuko Mapoma.
	These proceedings will be interpreted into three languages, channel 2 would be English and channel 3 would be Zulu and channel 4 would be Sotho.
	Mr Mapoma, would you want to commence?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.  From the side of the Commission we are ready to begin.  I understand Chairperson, that my learned friend Advocate Madasa has got something to say regarding the starting.  I leave it to you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Madasa?

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.  Indeed at this stage I'm not ready to begin the case because I've not had sufficient opportunity to consult with all the applicants at the same time, the reason being that I received the matter on Tuesday.
	I was contacted by the ANC legal department and thereafter by the TRC in Cape Town.  And then I only received the bundle of the documents on Friday but I made endeavours to consult in spite of those circumstances, by meeting some of the applicants who were only six on Wednesday.  
	I met the rest on Saturday morning, the whole morning session but I was not able to meet those who are in prison because two of them are in Sun City, that is Sun City Johannesburg Prison and one of them is in Bloem ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: How many of them are in prison?

MR MADASA: ...[indistinct] It's Thabiso Ntomo who is at Johannesburg prison, Michael Armoed, he's also at Johannesburg prison and Mohal Oscar Motlokwa who is number 3 on the list of applicants and who is detained at Leeuwkop prison.
	As we speak now, the two who are at the Johannesburg prison are not present yet.  They have not been brought by the prison authorities.   Mr Chair, I've managed to make a headway with regard to these consultations but as I've explained to my learned friend here, it does not mean the hearing cannot commence because they are not all here.  I agree with that but it's important for me to have all the applicants at the same time to agree on certain aspects Mr Chair, to avoid them contradicting each when they do give evidence before the Commission.  We have to agree, certain rules ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Well I suppose if they're telling the truth there's no need for them to contradict one another is there?  Well, if they're telling the truth there's no need for them to contradict one another.

MR MADASA: Yes, I understand but I'm saying we have to agree as to the role that they played.  This happened some time ago and it is important that we have an agreement as to how we are going to present the case.

CHAIRPERSON: How long would that take you?

MR MADASA: Mr Chair, as I've already stated, two prisoners are not here, I don't know what's going on in that area.  But with these ones I am - for the purpose of starting the hearing I'm in need of a further 30 minutes from now.

CHAIRPERSON: You see Mr Madasa, quite frankly I do not understand why you are not ready to proceed.  If you received instructions as far back as Tuesday there is no reason at all why you should not have consulted with those of the applicants who are not in prison who I gather are about 12 of them and be ready to proceed now.  	What we have to bear in mind is that we have 15 applicants that we have to hear and if we waste time we will not be able to finish.
	Is there any reason why we cannot proceed with those applicants with whom you've already consulted?

MR MADASA: Mr Chair, I'm saying that I need about 30 minutes to finish up with these who are present and after that time I will be able to commence with the hearing.   I just need 30 minutes to iron out a few issues with them.
	Mr Chair if I may state, this is going to help to speed up the whole process once I finish proper consultation with these people.  The whole thing will run smoothly.  Because I need to know with whom to start, who is going to follow, who is going fit where because this structure had a command structure.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, is there any reason why the two applicants, the three applicants who are in prison are not here?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I'm not in a position at this moment to say what was the reason but all I can say from the side of the Commission, we issued the notices to the applicants and through our Investigation Officer in Johannesburg office those notices were channelled to the prison so that the applicants may be brought to court.
	I want to believe Chairperson, that the problem may be with failure on the part of the prison officers to ensure that the applicants are brought to the hearing today.  But be that as it may Chairperson, if Chairperson allows the adjournment I will use that particular moment to try and do my best to find out from the prisoner officers as to exactly what is the reason which makes them not to take the applicants to the hearing by now.

MR MOTATA: Just ask gentlemen, that is you Mr Mapoma and Advocate Madasa, there is a requirement that we should have a pre-hearing conference.  Where you able to do that and probably narrow the issues which we should decide upon?

MR MADASA: Mr Chair, Mr Mapoma did intimate to me during last week that we should have such a hearing, which is desirable but owing to my difficulties with meeting these people who we were not able to have a pre-hearing because some of the people are working, some of them are not working.
	They were not able to organise themselves to come to me one at the same time because they live in the township.  And those problems caused me not to be able to come with Mr Zulu Mapoma so that we can narrow the issues but I admit that was desirable and it would speed up the process.

CHAIRPERSON: After anxious consideration we are of the view that you are entitled to the 30 minutes that you are asking for but let me make it clear to you that it will be that 30 minutes and nothing more.  And we will commence with those applicants who are here.
	Mr Mapoma, would you in the interim establish the whereabouts of the three applicants mentioned by Mr Madasa?  Just find out what went wrong.
	Mr Madasa, did you say Mohale Oscar Motlokwa is present here?  So only the two from Johannesburg are not here.  Thank you.  Very well, the Committee will rise and we will reconvene at 11 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Are all the applicants here now?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, not all the applicants are here.  The one in Johannesburg prison, the matter is still being taken up with the Johannesburg prison by Advocate Mpshe but there's only applicant Chairperson, not two.
	Thabiso Ntomo has not applied, he's not one of the applicants here, it's only Michael Armoed who is the first applicant and who is in prison.  We hope that by the end of the day today he will be here.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] told us that there were two who were in Johannesburg prison.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa, what is the position?

MR MADASA: Mr Chair I apologise, I made an error. Mr Ntomo has apparently not applied.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Madasa, please do not make these mistakes.  So is the position that the matter in regard to the other applicant who is in prison, being taken up by Advocate Mpshe?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.