Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-22

UNKNOWN: I asked you whether you knew what ANC stood for and you said: "No".  I asked you: "What were you supporting then if you don't know what they stood for"?  And you said you supported them because they sit down and talk.  Now my question is, were you supporting them because they talk?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I don't know how to respond to your question, Sir.

UNKNOWN: Do you want to reverse what you have said, that you support them because they talk?  You don't know now?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I don't know how I can answer to that question because I supported the ANC without knowing their policies or what they stood for.  I do not know their constitution.

UNKNOWN: Normally when a person supports an organisation or liberation movement, does it not support what they stand for, normally?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I don't know, I don't understand your question.

UNKNOWN: Turn to page 10 of the documents, paragraph 1.3, to be specific.  I will quote it for you for convenience.   You say
"The incident appeared to me to have been a complete takeover and this scared me as it meant that the people were the next to..."
...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON
"the police were the next"
The police, not the people.

UNKNOWN: I'm indebted, Mr Chairman, sorry.
"The incident appeared to me to have been a complete takeover and this scared me as it meant the police were the next to follow".
Do you mean you had to follow to be taken over, the police?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: As they have already taken control of the defence force, if they could have arrived at TTA, they could have taken control of the police.

UNKNOWN: Now will I then be correct ...[[intervention]

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: According to my observation.  They could have been able to take over.

UNKNOWN: Will I then be correct to state that you did what you did in order to preserve the status quo then, that is to protect, to ensure the non-takeover of the then Bophuthatswana Police, is that why you did this?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Please repeat your question.

UNKNOWN: You did what you did in order to stop the takeover of the then Bophuthatswana (Bop) Police?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Which would then mean that your aim was to maintain the status quo, the political status quo that prevailed in Bophuthatswana?

ADV MOTATA: If I may interpose, Mr Mpshe.  Are we reading the reasons for political objective by just taking one line in isolation or we look at those political objectives in totality?  Because I would draw your attention to page 11
"At the time this happened, the people forced me to take a stance and defend them.  I had two choices, either to disobey the will of the people and be their enemy as they would see me as a puppet of the homelands government or to act in protection of the people and achieve a political result they sought.  That is to stop the takeover by the AWB and enable them to struggle for change and participation in the elections".
Wouldn't we when we read the political objective, say we should read them in totality rather than taking one at a time?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: With great respect, I hear the Honourable Member very well, but that was my next point, to show out a contradiction.  In particular, reference to the effect that in this paragraph the applicant referring to the police in particular, and if you want to change a political setup in a country then you will be seen to be wanting to overthrow every institution that exists under that particular regime.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, Advocate Mpshe.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may continue.

UNKNOWN: I'm still awaiting the answer, Mr Menyatsoe.

CHAIRPERSON: The question asked to you was, if one takes a look at paragraph 1.3 on page 10 where you said that you were scared because you thought that the police were the next to fall as the army or the defence force had already fallen, as being one of your political motives.
	Mr Mpshe has then said: "Was your aim then therefore to maintain the status quo"?, because you did the shooting in order to protect the police from being taken over?  That is the question.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: It is a long question, I'm not able to apprehend the gist of it.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if you could repeat it, Mr Mpshe.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Were you protecting the police when you did the deed?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I was protecting the nation, the people and the police as well.  The police is part of the nation as well.

UNKNOWN: I see you are being evasive, let's leave it at that.  In any country, don't you see the police force as the agent of the wing of that government?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I do not understand because I do not understand how the police in other countries dress and ...[no English translation]

CHAIRPERSON: Confine your questions to the situation in BP then perhaps, Mr Mpshe.

UNKNOWN: ...[indistinct] at your own home.  The then Bophuthatswana Police Force, were they not the wing or the agent of the then government, they grey uniformed people?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Is the question - what is the question?  Is the question the fact that the police were supporting the government or were sustaining the government at that time?  Is that what the question is?

CHAIRPERSON: No, the question is - what Mr Mpshe is asking you is, what is your view, were you of the view or are you of the view that the Bophuthatswana Police Force at that time was a wing or an agent of the Bophuthatswana Government?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: A that time, Mr Mpshe, I was not aware of what the other policemen were thinking.  I did not know what was on the other policemen's minds.  I did not know who wanted to sustain Mr Mangope's government or who wanted to destroy it.  If you can just talk about me, maybe I can answer the question in a satisfactory manner.

ADV MOTATA: May I interpose, Mr Mpshe?
	Who employed you as a policeman in 1991, which government?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: It's the Bophuthatswana Government.

ADV MOTATA: And you fell within the ambit of the Minister of Law and Order, would that not be correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: That's correct, Sir.

ADV MOTATA: And when you were employed, what were you employed to do as a policeman falling under the Ministry of Law and Order?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I was told that my duty is to protect the nation.

ADV MOTATA: Only Sir?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: It is to protect the nation and to prevent crime in the country.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you, Mr Mpshe, you may continue.

UNKNOWN: Was one of them not that you should also protect your country, Mr Menyatsoe, as a policeman?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, Sir.

UNKNOWN: Alright.  And in protecting your country it meant that it was your duty to make sure there is no overthrowing of that country's government, not so?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: As I've already explained, Mr Mpshe, I was scared because the army had already been taken over, because the army is a strong backbone of the government and because I was a policeman and I knew that the army was far stronger than us, and what was going to happen to us.
	You know, in a war situation the key players are the army.  Now if - that is why Mr Terreblanche sent his army.

UNKNOWN: Let us sum up what you have said, Mr Menyatsoe.  Would you agree with me that in terms of this paragraph 1.3 and perhaps even paragraph 2 on the same page, you're protecting the takeover of your government?
	I'm sorry, Mr Chairman, to be fair to him I will read paragraph 2 for him:
"I regarded my official responsibility as one of making an attempt to ensure that there was order and prevent a takeover by the AWB".
Do you see that?

CHAIRPERSON: Right at the bottom of page 10, paragraph 2.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, I do.