Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-19

MR STRYDOM: And then you said something
"When I came back from the dumping ground I saw her inside the ambulance.  The ambulance was full."
And that is why you couldn't get into the ambulance.

FLORENCE MOLETE: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM: So if this portion of your evidence is correct you did not see who attacked Miriam?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Mr Strydom, you were not there.  This happened in my house.  I'm talking about something that happened in my house.  So if you now dispute what happened in my house I really don't know what to say.

MR STRYDOM: No, all I want to put to you, I accept that there were attackers in your house and those attackers attacked Miriam, but what I'm putting to you, you cannot say this or that or any other person was the attacker that attacked her.  She was attacked by attackers but you can't identify or say anything about the person that attacked her.

FLORENCE MOLETE: I know nothing about Miriam.  I know what happened to me.

MR STRYDOM: So it would not be correct to say that you met Miriam after the attack in a shack of the neighbour, because you saw her in the ambulance?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Mr Strydom, you asked me a question and then said what was the last time that I saw her, you didn't ask me about the neighbour.

MR STRYDOM: Well tell us, before you saw her in the ambulance again did you see her at any other place before that?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Mr Strydom, you repeat the same question again.  You asked me that question and I gave you an answer.

MR STRYDOM: I don't want to be difficult and I don't want to make it difficult for you.  All I want to know, before you saw Miriam in the ambulance did you see her at any other place?

FLORENCE MOLETE: I cannot answer that question.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, Mr Strydom.  Maybe if I phrase it this way:  before you saw Miriam in the ambulance when was the last time that you saw her?

FLORENCE MOLETE: I told Mr Strydom that the last time I saw Miriam was when she ran out with the baby in her hands and the other time that I saw her after that was when she was in the ambulance.  Now she's repeating the very same questions again.

MR STRYDOM: In your statement, paragraph 4, and I'm not going to read it to you to avoid making it unpleasant for you, but I'll put to you that you stated there that you in fact saw the attack on Miriam and what you told us now is that you did not see the attack.  Can you explain that?  I want you to try to clear that up.

FLORENCE MOLETE: Mr Strydom, if you were present at that time you wouldn't be asking me these difficult questions.  I explained where Miriam was and where I was.  I don't even want to know about what happened to Miriam.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, could I have permission just to speak to Ms Molete and just tell her to be patient with Mr Strydom, it might help.  I'm not suggesting Mr Strydom is doing anything wrong.
	Thank you, Chair.  Just for the record, I explained to Ms Molete that - she said she doesn't want to keep on answering questions about Miriam, I explained to her that in her statement she says things about Miriam and Mr Strydom wants to ask her questions about what is in her statement and I've asked her just to be patient and to answer the questions.  That is what I said to her.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember when you - I want to ask you certain questions about your testimony at the Goldstone Commission, and just to put you in the picture, it seems to me that you made a statement and your statement was read into the record and certain questions were also asked then.  Now I want to refer to page 258 where you were asked the following, in the middle of the page
"Was that the only white person that you saw that night? - at that stage, sorry."
You said:
"Well I noticed this white person and another one who came in through the broken portion of the shack."

MR BERGER: Perhaps it should be explained that the first white person is the white person standing outside the door that's being referred to.

MR STRYDOM: Ja, that is indeed correct.  I don't want to read the full document but that is correct.
	You referred to another white person and you referred to somebody standing outside, and then the question was asked:
"Was that the only white person that you saw that night? - at that stage, sorry."

FLORENCE MOLETE: Well I noticed this white person and another who came in through the broken portion of the shack.  He walked over the planks of the shack that had been broken down and got into the bedroom.  Is that portion of your evidence correct?

FLORENCE MOLETE: This thing happened a long time ago in 1992, it's been years now, I forget some of the things. I have made many statements.  I cannot remember some of the things that happened in 1992, that were written in those statements.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but you see the reason why I'm asking this, what you could you remember today is that you saw, whilst lying pretending to be dead, you saw a white person leaving the shack.  Now this is not the same as this, here you said that you saw him coming into the shack.

FLORENCE MOLETE: In that statement I have also mentioned two people, two white people.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but it still doesn't explain what you told this Committee, that you saw the second white person when he left and that's the only time you saw, when he left the shack.

FLORENCE MOLETE: That's what I'm explaining to you, that what happened in 1992, you'll not remember it in totality, we were at pains that time.

MR STRYDOM: If you saw that Miriam's attacker was a white person, you have remembered that at any occasion, and all occasions, is that so?

FLORENCE MOLETE: That Sir, that one affects Miriam alone.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Molete ...

FLORENCE MOLETE: Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Strydom is putting to you is the following, and he is not saying you saw this, he's putting to you that if you had seen a white man attacking Miriam, you would not have forgotten this.  Do you understand the question?

MS CAMBANIS: Chairperson, Ms Molete has indicated that she wishes to address us, which we ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, do you have any objection if the witness ...

MR STRYDOM: Well not for this occasion.
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CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger ...
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CHAIRPERSON: ... if Ms Molete is not comfortable in answering questions relating to Miriam, we understand that, we will move on.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, Ms Cambanis and I have spoken to some neighbours of Ms Molete and we've come to the opinion that she appears to be taking a lot of strain at the moment.  She tells me that she's prepared and able to carry on, but I don't know if her perception is the only perception that's relevant.  She appears to be taking a lot of strain.
	I don't know if we can stand her down and start with another witness or if that's just going to cause too many problems, or maybe we have to adjourn for the day, I don't know.  	I am sorry about this, but it's now becoming, you know every question is a hardship and she's also not appreciating what Mr Strydom is doing.  She's saying that Mr Strydom is telling her what to say, when clearly he is not telling her what to say, but that's the way she's perceiving it at the moment.  Perhaps it's just exhaustion at this stage, or being over stressed, but she's clearly not coping.
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	Would it be possible, this is just a suggestion, that we stand down Ms Molete, we lead our next witness only in-chief and we then adjourn and Ms Molete continues her cross-examination first thing tomorrow morning?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand your offer, Mr Berger and perhaps that might be the solution, but what concerns me is that this is recurring.  We might stand the matter down and the same thing might happen again.  So that is what I am trying to resolve with my colleagues.
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	What do you say to the proposal by Mr Berger?