Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-16

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: We had thought that since we had missed the father then we should take her to show to Thanduxolo that we had complied with the orders. There was no other way. We could not have left her behind because she was in the car anyway.

MR LAX: Now was she still unconscious when you got to Mbashe?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I think so. I think she was still unconscious.

MR LAX: Well you carried her over the fence so you must know whether she was unconscious or not.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes she was unconscious because she could not walk by herself. We carried her.

CHAIRPERSON: But could she talk? Did she know what was going on?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I do not think so. I do not think she knew what was going on. She was unconscious.

MR LAX: But were her eyes open for example? Or was she like she was sleeping, like some one who you would expect was unconscious would have their eyes closed?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I did not take note of her eyes. I was not able to look at her face.

MR LAX: Well you see you spent 30 minutes or more with this person in the vehicle next to you, you cannot tell us a simple detail like that?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: You mean about whether her eyes were open or closed?

MR LAX: Precisely.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I was not there to look at her eyes. I insisted to capture her whether her eyes were opened or not I cannot recall that?

CHAIRPERSON: Was she sitting up in the van?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was she?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: She was on the floor of the car.

ADV SANDI: Who carried the body over the fence?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: My co-accused and I carried the body.

MR LAX: Sorry is that Zama?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.

MR LAX: Now where did you put her down after you carried her over the fence?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: There were bushed there. That is where we put her.

MR LAX: And you just put her down on the ground?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.

MR LAX: Was she sitting, was she lying, was she kneeling, what was the story?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: As it is on the pictures she was lying down.

MR LAX: And so when you and Zama then returned to the vehicle to search it again, that is when you heard the shots or the shot, the noise? You just heard a noise?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: When we were going to search? Hear properly could the Commission be patient with me. I was interrogated by the police. My one ear is not functioning well. Please do not panic, please be patient with me. If you do not panic, I do not panic. I have a problem with my ear. I cannot hear well. Please be patient. Please try to accommodate my problem.

MR LAX: No problem, take your time.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Please repeat your question? You were asking about searching something?

MR LAX: I said after you put the body down and then Thanduxolo came with a firearm and said: "Look what I found in the car," or words like that you got excited, you went to the car thinking you might find another one.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Correct.

MR LAX: And then Zama followed you.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes. After Thanduxolo got the gun I went to the truck myself to search as well. After I had finished searching my co-accused was next to me.

MR LAX: And then you heard a noise?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.

MR LAX: Did Thanduxolo say anything to you when he came back to the car about what he had done? To the truck rather.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: About killing Donne?

MR LAX: Precisely.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: He did not say anything. He came back and his special expression had totally changed. He said we must take the truck. He gave my co-accused a weapon and gave me a weapon too. He said that we must go, we will meet wherever.

MR LAX: So he gave your co-accused a weapon and you a weapon. You already had a weapon. Your evidence is that you had a .38?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.

MR LAX: So what additional weapon did he give to you?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: He gave my co-accused a .38.

MR LAX: Yes and what did he give you?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: He gave me orders to leave.

MR LAX: No you said he gave you a weapon?

CHAIRPERSON: A moment ago you said: "He gave me a weapon and he gave my co-accused a weapon."

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: My co-accused was given a .38, Mike Meyers' one. I had my own. I must have made a mistake.

MR LAX: Sorry what was the last comment he made?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: He said that we must take the truck and leave.

MR LAX: No before that he made a comment, I just did not hear what it was, by slip of the tongue thank you. Now you have not told us anything about the money. What happened to the money?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: It was part and parcel of the operation to repossess.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did it come from? Where did you find it?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: The white man had money.

MR LAX: Well you have not told us how you got it? Where you got it from? Why didn't you say anything in your previous evidence about it? Where we would have expected it to happen as part of your evidence?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: You want all the details everything? Because I have mentioned in my application form what I was charged by the Supreme Court. Armed robbery, hi-jacking. This requires me to be here to tell you how the kidnapping went, the possession of firearm, the hi-jacking. I cannot explain all this on this small form.

MR LAX: Well you see Mr Kulman, you yourself said this was your opportunity to tell us all the details. So we would have expected you to tell us all the details in your evidence. You said this was your opportunity. This was when you were going to tell us all the details. This was when you were going to tell us the truth rather than the lies you told in court. Yet you have not said a word about the money, about the robbery, about how you acquired that money or what you call repossession.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I thought you were going to go step by step and ask how did this happen or how did that happen. However let me answer you right now. They found the money with us in the truck.

MR LAX: The question is where did you get the money from, not where they found it on you?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry can I just come in here. I thought maybe it will be fair to this witness. I understand he is still giving his evidence in chief, maybe in the course of that he was still going to tell us about those things. And I also understand that normally the lawyer leading the witness will ask him if he has forgotten to mention anything before finishing his evidence in chief.

CHAIRPERSON: We have gone way past his evidence about what happened at the scene and his lawyer did ask him to go through it step by step.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairman he was still, I have not yet completed. But I am not saying, of course I was going to ask him to say whether is there any other thing he wants to tell the Committee after completing his evidence in chief, maybe then the Committee. But since the Committee was asking questions so I was giving it chance to ask and finish it so that I can complete my.

CHAIRPERSON: Well perhaps we could save some time if he just told us now where they got the money?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: We got the money from the truck, Mike Meyers' truck.

MR LAX: When, at what stage?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Around Mbashe.

MR LAX: Maybe I misunderstood you but earlier on you said you got the money when you shot Mr Meyers.

CHAIRPERSON: He said the white man had money.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I do not think Mr Chairman he mentioned money at any stage.

MR LAX: That is why I prefaced to say maybe I have misunderstood. No we leave it at there. You carry on Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you going to carry on with now Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I am almost finish.

CHAIRPERSON: Because I am looking at the time. Should we take the adjournment now or do you think? It is now ten past eleven.