Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-07

ADV MALAN: In terms of your views of that time, would the attack on the deceased have been considered as part of an armed struggle or not?

VERNON VOSLOO: Certainly, I would claim that.  The climate at that time was such that people had to resist, they had to act against a take over.  I felt that I had made a contribution in this regard.

ADV MALAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV MALAN: .

HASSAN MALL: Mr Black.

MR BLACK: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Vosloo, just to clarify some issues.  In your application form and in your evidence, you always refer to the AWB as having seen some of their meetings.  Now is it correct, did you ever attend any of these meetings of the AWB, any rallies held by the AWB?

VERNON VOSLOO: I saw on television that there were AWB meetings, that there were other rightwing groups who had meetings, that is how I kept up to date with what took place.  I also knew many people who actually attended these meetings and in that way I kept up to date.  Personally I did not directly attend any such a meeting.

MR BLACK: Am I correct in understanding then that your knowledge of the aims and goals and purposes of the AWB organisation depends solely on what you've seen on the media and on what certain people have told you who have attended their meetings, you have no personal - you personally did not actively participate in any of these political organisation's activities, is that correct?

VERNON VOSLOO: I did not attend these functions, but the goals were the same and I supported these goals.  The people who spoke to me after such meetings, who shared these things with me, were for me equally as worthwhile as the people who actually spoke and acted at the meetings.  My work was of such a nature that I could not simply go away at any time to attend a meeting.  I worked 12 hour shifts, it might have been day or night shifts.  Sometimes I worked longer hours than that.  With the consequence that I depended on my friends who attended these meetings to inform me of the
events, to keep me up to date and then also what I saw on television.

MR BLACK: On that issue, what was the nature of your work?  What were you employed as?

VERNON VOSLOO: I was a security officer at the Johannesburg City Council.

MR BLACK: As far as your evidence goes, you say that after this killing you got into your - prior to the killing you pursued the deceased, and you attacked him from behind, after this stabbing him 14 times in the chest, you then got into your car and drove home, is that correct?

VERNON VOSLOO: No, I did not drive home, I drove around and somewhat later that evening, I stayed in my car,  I slept in my car, apologies.

MR BLACK: But you were sober enough to drive the vehicle, is that correct?

VERNON VOSLOO: If you want to consider that driving, yes, the Investigative Officer who investigated the case at that time, saw me drive.  When I stopped in front of some of my friends' home, he came to me and he spoke to me very seriously because I drove like a maniac.  He asked me to stay in the car and to sleep in the car rather than drive off and that is what I did in fact.

MR BLACK: At the time of your committing this murder, I put it to you that the deceased was killed and murdered by you simply because he was Black.  Is that not so?

VERNON VOSLOO: I killed this man because I saw him as a person of the opposition party that would govern me, yes.  In that sense, yes.

MR BLACK: In that frame of mind that you were in, would you have killed all Black people that you saw in the street?

VERNON VOSLOO: At that time my state of mind after days and months, was conditioned to act against people of other colours, of other races.  If any other Black man walked passed me, I would most certainly have attacked him also.

MR BLACK: And I assume that you worked with Black colleagues, is that correct, at that time.

VERNON VOSLOO: That is the case, yes.

MR BLACK: Had you made up your mind, when did you decide, let's put it that way, to start killing Black people?

VERNON VOSLOO: I would not say that I can give you a specific time.  The circumstances at that time was such that one thing followed another.  Through the course of time resistance built up, our fears grew.  Fears that we would eventually be taken over entirely and we would have no say any more in our own lives.  I would say that it was something which came over time, it built up to a climax.

JUDGE WILSON: I have been asked to take a short adjournment at this stage, to enable those responsible for doing so, to make adjustments to the recording devices which we are using.  So I propose to do so.  We will now take a short adjournment.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION

MR BLACK: ... bypasser.

VERNON VOSLOO: I wanted to get people to realise that we were not just going to surrender, that we were not going to simply allow some foreign party to take us over, to rule over us.

INTERPRETER: Can the English be heard?  Is the English interpretation available?

MR BLACK: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR BLACK: .

JUDGE WILSON: Re-examination?

ADV MALAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Vosloo, how did you think would this and attack on and the death of the particular deceased person, influence the political events?

INTERPRETER: Is the interpreting available?  Could someone give an indication whether it is available?

VERNON VOSLOO: We thought that people would note that we are simply not willing to be taken over, that they might simply act more carefully rather than try and run over us.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think Mr Vosloo, I think we have a problem with the English translation.  We don't seem to be picking up anything.

INTERPRETER: Can't you hear?  Can't you hear the English.  It seems that no one is hearing the English translation.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Malan, you may continue

ADV MALAN: I think the question was Mr Vosloo, if I remember correctly, what did you think would have been the effect on the political process, what would you achieve in terms of an effect by the act committed during May 1992?

VERNON VOSLOO: As I said, I had hoped that the opposition of that time and the government would see that the Afrikaner would not simply sit back and wait for another party to rule over them and to dominate them.  The intention was for them to take note of the fact that we are dissatisfied with the changes.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you explain to me how this was supposed to come to their notice.  Would you have made a press statement the next day to say listen folks, I am going to kill you if you don't stop the negotiations or the take over, or whatever.  If you simply find a corpse in a street, how could this in any way contribute some influence on the
political process?

VERNON VOSLOO: Sir, the media and those who work with them are always well aware of what happens and what does not happen.  They see to it that there is coverage of whatever incident or situation occurs.  They know of these things.   I knew that the matter would appear in the newspapers and the people intended to, would take note of it.

JUDGE WILSON: As was put to you by Mr De Jager, what would have appeared in the newspaper is what unfortunately appears with great regularity in our newspapers, that the body of an unidentified man who had been stabbed to death, was found laying in the road.

VERNON VOSLOO: What also was said in the newspaper was who was responsible for the death of the unknown deceased person and in which neighbourhood this occurred.  I believe that the people for whom I intended to take note of this, did in fact take note of it.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you intend to be arrested and have your name publicised