Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-05-20

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Firstly, there were two steps taken because in the meeting that Thyido had already mentioned, there was a previous meeting held where I proposed that us as leaders must be given the opportunity to find out about these allegations, we were holding this meeting in Mr (indistinct) house from six o'clock up until eight o'clock, and during our discussions about the money matters, we came to a decision that this money issue must be frozen and he must just step down as a leader of SANCO and we had to give a report to the ANC Youth League and the Women's League and SANCO about our previous discussions.
	And in that meeting he pretended to be pleading but his wife did  say that all this is due to my husband, he is responsible for this.  And that is when I realised that Bongi and Fundile Madodo held discussions, but we told them that we had meetings and what was the decision taken and there was a confusion in the meeting and thereafter there were no meetings held and they distanced themselves and after my mother's attack, they disappeared.
	What happened thereafter or before, before leaving I think they did go to the ANC Regional Office whereby members thereof came to us, they came to my house and told me that they hear news that we are shooting each other and they were given an instruction to come and disarm us, but that was untrue, we never shot each other.
	But we told them that all we are having is discussions, but you can go ahead and disarm us, we handed over our firearms and we went to the R Section, there was a Mr Dulah Omar and Willie Hofmeyr present there and there was  a meeting to be held the following day.
	I did explain to Tony that comrades you seem to come here uninformed that we are criminals, but it is not true.  It is just to fulfil the aims of the Stability Unit and some members.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you say that Dulah Omar and Willie Hofmeyr were at R Section when you went there?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, they were there when we arrived.

JUDGE WILSON: Who were they talking to?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Toni Yengeni arrived in the house and Nqosi Petani and we got into a car and went into the R Section and found them there.  And we were advised that a meeting will be held tomorrow.

JUDGE WILSON: In the R Section, a meeting of who?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: It won't be held in R Section, but in Fawu buildings the following day.

JUDGE WILSON: What date was it?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: It would be somewhere in March, towards the end of the month.

JUDGE WILSON: March, what year?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: In 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will take the adjournment at this stage and resume at two o'clock.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS :

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, is counsel in the following matter present here now?

MR BRINK: I think they have gone, I think you have released them Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ... steps are being to have a completed application form?

MR BRINK: That was being worked on by Mr Lourens.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BRINK: I don't know whether they still are, they were working in the board room, if they are still there, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it doesn't matter, as long as attention is being paid to that so that whether the application is heard or not at least that part of the matter should be completed.

MR BRINK: I have also notified the prison authorities about the situation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and is it arranged that the prisoners will be brought in tomorrow afternoon?

MR BRINK: No they will be brought here during the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: The morning, right.  Please listen to what I have to ask.   When was the decision taken by you and your colleagues to go armed to the house of your victim, when was that decided?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: The decision to go to Mr Bongi Mpisane was taken on the day of the 29th after getting the information from this girl about the meeting that will occur amongst Mr Mpisane and his group and the ISU Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: The fact that you went there armed, meant quite clearly that you were expecting a shut-out and not a discussion?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Definitely, we went there with the intention to attack them.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you opened fire on him, quite clearly there is no suggestion that he himself was armed?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Honestly he was not armed.

JUDGE WILSON: He was running away at the time?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: When we got to him and we tried to ask him, he ran away but he was not armed.

CHAIRPERSON: How many rounds of ammunition were fired, do you know?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Because an automatic gun was used, I cannot exactly say how many shots were fired, whether it was two or three.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the child that was eventually found dead, was that also as a result of the use of the automatic?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: I would say because her death resulted from this shooting incident.

CHAIRPERSON: We haven't heard how much money was involved that gave rise to what you say was the problem between you and Mpisane, how much money was involved?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Firstly I would like the TRC to listen to this carefully and you mustn't just say it was only Mpisane who took this money.  It was not only himself, it was several of them in the Trevor Vilakazi Branch they have got seven sections from the R Section to the Q, to the D,M,P,J,S,K and then L Sections.
	Each and every house would have to contribute R5-00 from every Section.  The money was not finally counted to say how much was the final amount, but every household had contributed already.

CHAIRPERSON: Up to now you don't know how much was contributed?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Till to date, I wouldn't lie and say what the amount is.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't the money supposed to be put into a bank account?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: This money was not to be deposited into a bank account, but it was donated because of the war that was raging and thus it was meant to buy armoury to protect the community.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I know about your decision to protect the community, there is no doubt in my mind that that is your case, I am now concerned with trying to find out how much was involved.  Was there somebody who was appointed as Treasurer to take control of the money?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: The money for this ammunition was to be counted by the Executive in my presence and it should be handed to myself, then I should by the ammunition and report back, handing over the ammunition back to the Executive.

CHAIRPERSON: Is your answer to my question that you were appointed as Treasurer?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: Yes, in the SDU section, yes, the money was to be handed to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Mpisane the only man, him and his group the only people who were collecting or were there others who were collecting money?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: It was Mpisane and his group who were collecting the money.
	The were nominated solely for that purpose.

CHAIRPERSON: Have members of his group been called to account for the money they collected?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: They were all called.  The TRC must take note that this money issue was in 1991, but till 1992 there was no follow up or not progress made in terms of getting this money from them.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words those people have not been called upon to account?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: We had four sittings with them and then we finally went into a general meeting and all structures of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I am waiting to hear the answer.

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: In that meeting it became very clear that places were being attacked and burnt but yet people had donated to make preparations for their security.

CHAIRPERSON: ... money, I am talking about whether the others were called upon to account?

ZWELITSHA MKHULUTHA: I say they were all called, they were all present in all the meetings that were called.

CHAIRPERSON: And nobody rendered an account of how much he collected and where the money was?