Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-15

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Myself, I was armed with an R4 automatic weapon.  Kenny was having an AK47.  I learnt yesterday that Godfrey was having two grenades with him.  I think Chinese stick grenades and Pat was not armed.  Musa remained in the car.

MR MAPOMA: Now, in your evidence-in-chief you have indicated that you did the shooting and you believe that Kenny also shot.  Are you the only people who attacked?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: For attack or for an assault group, I was the one who attacked the car.  Whilst I was withdrawing I saw him also shooting.  He was not far away from the car.  I think not more than 30cms - not more than 30 metres from it.

MR MAPOMA: Is it not correct that some handgrenades were thrown at the motor vehicle?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I learnt from Godfrey who was having grenades that he lost one of the grenades.  I don't know how he lost it.  He was not supposed to use them.  He was not supposed to take part in the assault unit.

MR MAPOMA: So, are you saying he possibly did throw it to the motor vehicle?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I believe him when he say he lost it, that he didn't throw it to the police van.

MR LAX: Mr Mapoma, just for the record.  That handgrenade you're referring to, had it exploded?  Was it still unexploded when that was found?  Are you able to elucidate that?  Just so that we put the correct version to the witness.

MR MAPOMA: Unfortunately, sir, I can't say whether it did explode or not at this stage, unless I can verify it.  Thanks.  Now, on the Sunday when you were to be arrested by these two policemen - I mean by the police group, is it your evidence that you shot once at those policemen?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I believe so.  I think I release one bullet.  I think so, in my last attempt.

MR MAPOMA: And in your evidence-in-chief that bullet of yours was after some shots were fired at you?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Are you saying therefore that you shot in response to the shooting that was made by the police against you?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Not per se.  I shot because I had to shoot them.  I came out that house to shoot them, and also to fight my way out.

MR MAPOMA: So, is it not the position that you shot in defence against the attack that was launched by the police against you?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: To fight my way out it means I shot in defence.

CHAIRPERSON: But, Mr Dolo, did I understand you correctly, you had a problem with your firearm, it was locked I think you said.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So, if it wasn't locked you would have initiated the attack?  You would have been shooting earlier than you did?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: If I could just put it another way.  I mean you were basically resisting arrest.  You wanted to get away.  You would have done what was required to try and escape?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: That's obvious.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.  Thank you, sir.  Now, at the Yeoville attack which you instructed some forces to attack there.  What exactly was your target there?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The information about the target or the reconnaissance was conducted by Pat and Godfrey, I believe also Musa was familiar with that area.  They were the three people who knew that area very much, or area of Yeoville.  So, they told me that they were going to attack a police station.  I have to provide them with explosives.  Then I give them the explosives and then I order them then to carry on with their mission.

MR MAPOMA: So, is it your evidence that your order was to attack the police station at Yeoville?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: They were going to plant an explosive there.

MR MAPOMA: I would just like your comment on this one.  It transpires in the court judgment against you that the attack was aimed at the Polish Club at Yeoville, and not the police station as such, and the Polish Club was an attack on civilians so to speak, was intended to be an attack on civilians.  What is your comment on this one?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Well, I agree with you, that that was the statement from the police.  That's what they wanted the court to believe.  But from the unit and from my knowledge, the attack was going to be the police station.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.  No further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma.
	Any questions?  Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Mr Dolo, we've spoken before, as you know, and just on the issue of what would have happened, this is just asking you as a commander, if subsequent to this attack the cadres under your command had in fact placed that bomb say at the Polish Club instead of the police station, that, as I understand it, would have still be in line with PAC policy at that time.  There was no distinction between civilian and military targets in terms of APLA's policy.  Certainly from the matters I've heard, that seems to be the case, but you may want to correct me on that.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Well, we are talking here about people who are trained to follow orders, not to do what they are pleased to do.  If they say they were ordered to go and attack a police station then they will do so.  I don't think in such incident we'll come across such cases whereby people will be ordered to carry this particular mission then they carry their own mission.  It's a ...(indistinct), you won't get it.

MR LAX: So, do you think that's very, very unlikely, that that was their intended objective in spite of what the police may have said?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: It will not have happened.

MR LAX: Where is Kenny now?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I don't know.  I'm in gaol.  I don't know what is happening outside.  I don't know where is he.

MR LAX: And as I understand it, the people that were with you that you commanded, Patrick and Godfrey who were convicted with you, have also applied for amnesty, is that correct?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: For which case?

MR LAX: For this case.  For the Yeoville attack.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, just for the record, I want to place on record that I've been trying since June this year, making endeavours to talk to the police.  I've spoken also to the Minister of Police.  We are trying to get hold of the documents which were confiscated in Lesotho and Umtata of the PAC.  We are having problem with the names.
	The information I received was that from the commanders and the director of operation that it's very difficult to them to tell me who was Kenny, because most of the cases you find that there were five Kennys.  If somebody goes to another and they remove from that particular area, they give him another name and they give to another person.  So, they will make - they will say so-and-so yet it was not so-and-so.  They have a record where they were keeping the names that this one, so-and-so was given this name when he was moving to that area.  The Minister has responded to me, has said he is looking at the matter.  I have not yet managed to get the information.  We are trying our best to get that information to assist us in some of these cases.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: If it's any consolation, Mr Mbandazayo, we're trying to get the same information to see whether we can process those applications that we can't identify the individuals.  You will remember there was a problem with those matters.  So, we're also looking for the very same information that you're looking for.  Obviously if we get it we'll let you know, and make it available to you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Mr Dolo, in your first application, the first one in the bundle, at page 5, you make reference to a man who gave you orders in paragraph 11(b), by the name of Carl Zimbiri.  Now I understand that's a Timarangan(?) name, but you've mentioned a different person, someone called Polite as being the person who gave you the instructions.  Who was Carl Zimbiri?