Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-12

HASSAN MALL: We will adjourn at this stage to enable you to 
consider this memorandum and for us to read it as well, and 
we will resume at two o'clock.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe, you asked no questions about the 
Nortje evidence. I am going to tell you that, if in the 
interim you feel that you might want to consider the matter 
and put questions, you will be allowed to do so.  Alright, 
we will adjourn now and resume at two o'clock.

UNKNOWN: CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 161

HASSAN MALL: Mr du Plessis, the memorandum which has been 
handed to me, is addressed to the Amnesty Committee and it 
bears the date 12th of March 1997.  In it Mr Botha records 
the following, or rather what Mr Botha said was recorded as 
follows  That he objects most strongly to the 
unsubstantiated comments made by Mr Nortje yesterday before 
the CommittEe which apparently were not challenged by any 
members of the Committee.
		"According to Press reports today, Mr Cronje 
alleged that there was no doubt that I knew of a 
security force plot to eliminate one of the master 
minds of the 1983 Church Street bomb blasts in 
Pretoria.  According to the Press reports, Mr 
Cronje alleged that I publicly claimed that a 
certain MacKenzie was an ANC member and that he 
had blown up his own vehicle.  Mr Cronje then 
stated that there was no doubt in his mind that I 
knew what the true situation was.  Mr Cronje did 
not indicate any source for this allegation.      
The facts are that the Botswana  Government 
complained to the South African Government.  The 
Department of Foreign Affairs, as is the normal 
practice, sent the Botswana Government's comment 
to the South African Security Forces.  The South 
African Police responded that they had 
incontrovertible evidence that MacKenzie was being 
used by the ANC to transport weapons into South 
Africa from Botswana.  The SAP also said that they 
had evidence that MacKenzie was in regular contact 
with certain members of the ANC in Zambia and 
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HASSAN MALL: 162
		Botswana. The SAP assured the Department of 
Foreign Affairs that the SAP was prepared to 
provide access to evidence which supported the 
facts which the SAP conveyed to the Department of 
Foreign Affairs.  The `incontrovertible evidence' 
of the SAP was forwarded to the Botswana 
Government in June 1987 in a formal note which was 
released to the Press.  It is obvious that Mr 
Cronje and his colleagues have supplied false 
information to the Department of Foreign Affairs. 
 It is also obvious that after Mr De Klerk's 
evidence that the Cabinet was often deceived by 
certain members of the SAP dealing with these 
matters. I consider Mr Cronje's unsubstantiated 
allegations as a disgraceful attempt to draw 
attention away from his irresponsible activities. 
 I will be grateful if the Committee could ask Mr 
Cronje on what basis of fact he made these 
allegations.  Due to lack of time I have no other 
means, but to convey the statement telephonically 
to the Committee."

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I firstly just want to place 
on record, according to Mr Mpshe, the reference to Mr De 
Klerk should be De Kock. I presume that's Eugene de Kock in 
his evidence.

HASSAN MALL: You are right.

UNKNOWN: And that should be rectified.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Now Mr Chairman, may I respond to this?

HASSAN MALL: Yes, please.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Why do you say  De Kock, Mr Du Plessis?
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UNKNOWN: 163

UNKNOWN: I don't know, Mr Chairman, I was asked by 
Mr Mpshe.  Perhaps he should address you on this.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I was informed last by the person 
who took the message, Mr John Allen, who spoke with Mr Botha 
this morning.  He says he has made a mistake, he didn't say 
De Klerk but De Kock.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: He conveyed this to me.

HASSAN MALL: After Mr De Kock's evidence?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

HASSAN MALL: Well, on the assumption that this ought to 
reflect Mr De Kock rather than Mr De Klerk, can we proceed 
further with this matter?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I can respond to this, and I 
would like Brig Cronje to tell you exactly on what he based 
his allegation, and I will call him as a witness in that 
regard.
	I firstly want to state that from Brig Cronjes point of
view I was asked to place on record, in respect of the 
second last sentence, where Minister Botha said that it is 
obvious that Mr Cronje and his colleagues have supplied 
false information to the Department of Foreign Affairs, that 
we reserve our rights in that regard.  Mr Cronje will give 
evidence about that now, he will deny it, but that we also 
reserve our rights pertaining to deal or specifically with 
the purpose to deal with this allegation in a different 
forum in this regard.  We regard this as defamatory.
	Now Mr Chairman, is it possible that I could call Brig 
Cronje to explain to the Committee exactly on what he bases 
his evidence?  Thank you.

HASSAN MALL: Please do call him.
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UNKNOWN: 164

BRIG CRONJE: (sworn states).

UNKNOWN: Brigadier, you don't have 
your application before you. I am going to read it to you, 
the relevant part.  You will find it on page 159 to 160.  
You there testified, Brigadier - can you just read it to us 
again, please, on the last paragraph of page 159

BRIG CRONJE: "I remember when the bomb exploded, it may 
the headlines in the papers.  Botswana 
complained to the South African Government.  
It was alleged that MacKenzie was a member of 
the ANC and that he blew up his own vehicle."

UNKNOWN: Then the first paragraph on page 160 -

BRIG CRONJE: "I have no doubt in my mind that  Minister 
Botha had to know what the true situation 
was."

UNKNOWN: Can you please explain to the Committee 
why you say that there could not have been any doubt in your 
mind?

BRIG CRONJE: After the incident, I, myself, and Brig Loots, 
were called to van der Merwe's office after the incident.  
He wanted to find out exactly what had happened, how the 
operation went wrong and everything about that operation, 
because he said he would have to inform Minister Pik Botha. 
 To my mind, to inform means that you tell him the truth.  
You do not want the true facts in order to inform him 
falsely. I know Gen van der Merwe so well that I know that 
he would not have lied to a Minister.

UNKNOWN: Is it on those grounds that you said that 
there was no doubt in your mind that Minister Botha knew?

BRIG CRONJE: Yes, and furthermore, even MacKenzie had blown 
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UNKNOWN: 165

BRIG CRONJE: up his own vehicle he would have been dead, he would not 
have been living any more.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Do I understand you to mean that the 
information that you gave to Gen van der Merwe, was in 
accordance with the evidence that you are giving here now?

BRIG CRONJE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: That that is the information that you conveyed 
to him?

BRIG CRONJE: I conveyed this information to Gen van der 
Merwe, I never lied to my generals.

HASSAN MALL: And you don't know how that was conveyed to Mr 
Pik Botha?

BRIG CRONJE: No, Mr Chairman, I don't know.

HASSAN MALL: The report was made to Gen Van der Merwe by you 
personally?

BRIG CRONJE: It was actually Brig Loots who informed him 
about the operation, because it was not my operation, it was 
Brig Loots'.

HASSAN MALL: And were you present throughout?

BRIG CRONJE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.  Any questions?

JUDGE WILSON: Did you know anything about the formal note 
which was released to the Press?

BRIG CRONJE: Yes, I read that in the papers.

JUDGE WILSON: And was that note correct, did it correctly 
reflect what had happened?

BRIG CRONJE: No, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Was that the incorrect version?

BRIG CRONJE: That's correct.
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JUDGE WILSON: 166