Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-17

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm talking about the bomb plantings.  There were certain results and you could foresee what would happen?

MR LE ROUX: Yes that is correct but it was so quick that on the 23rd I was in the whole process and the next day the bomb exploded.

CHAIRPERSON: But on the way there must have been enough time to reflect?

MR LE ROUX: I was driving alone, I did think about it.

CHAIRPERSON: It's probably better that you drove alone, you had time to reflect?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson at that stage I believed in what I was doing.

CHAIRPERSON: One of the reasons why these bombs were planted was to inform the world or whoever about the policy of the AWB and what they are looking for.  Is that not true?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson it was not just the policy of the AWB, here were various political parties involved and I saw it in a broader sense.

CHAIRPERSON: I did not understand it as such, but I hear what you are saying.  Who would have been responsible for the consequences of the bombings?

MR LE ROUX: I believed that the AWB would have taken responsibility.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that not one of the reasons why you contributed because the AWB wanted to show the world what their policy was?

MR LE ROUX: Yes that is the expression of the policy.

CHAIRPERSON: The first bomb was planted on the 23rd in Bree Street?

MR LE ROUX: The 24th.

CHAIRPERSON: What time was that?

MR LE ROUX: At approximately ten minutes to ten in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: And the second bomb?

MR LE ROUX: The second bomb was I think around eight or nine o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: The same day in Germiston?

MR LE ROUX: No it was the next day, the Monday.

CHAIRPERSON: Eight o'clock in the morning?

MR LE ROUX: Nine o'clock in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: That was approximately 24 hours between the two bombings?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: By six o'clock that morning no one had taken responsibility for the bombing in Bree Street.  Is that not correct?

MR LE ROUX: Yes it is.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not then at that stage think one of the most important reasons I'm taking part in this is to show the world what we want and here there's a bomb where people were killed and no one comes forward to say we take responsibility and give a reason.  What was your position then, did you not think that the plan is not working very well?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson as far as I can remember some of the newspapers did speculate that it was the right wing unrest that was taking place.

CHAIRPERSON: Well that was not your plan before the first bomb planting.  Before then you expected, I don't not know why, but you expected that someone in the AWB would stand up and say we planted the bomb and these are the reasons?

MR LE ROUX: Yes that is correct, I hoped for it and I criticised it afterwards.

CHAIRPERSON: But by six o'clock the following morning no one had come forward to claim responsibility?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage did you not then, did you know that you were going to plant a bomb in Germiston?

MR LE ROUX: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not then at that stage think I wonder if my participation in this is right because it doesn't seem as if anyone is going to stand up and tell the world why the bomb was planted?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson I thought that it was part of the process, I did not know what the main planning part was.  I hoped that they would take responsibility and present their claims and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you think that somebody would stand up and tell the world.  Why is the world so important?

MR LE ROUX: Any state that is created must be accepted by the countries and the world at large.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say there was speculation that the bombs were planted by the right wing?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: It was made or created by someone who by coincidence has a white skin.  Is that no so?

MR LE ROUX: No I wouldn't say that Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well is there such a thing as a Black Afrikaner?

MR LE ROUX: Some people call it that.  An Afrikaner Boer is a White person, it's about ethnicity.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the planning of the bomb in Germiston, why would it mainly occur where mostly, if not all, Black people were present, is it not so?

MR LE ROUX: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not think that after the explosion of that bomb, there would be Black and White conflict or did you know about it?

MR LE ROUX: That is what we suspected Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that not what you wanted?

MR LE ROUX: No I did not want it to take place, I was part of a revolution.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that not important for you to prevent it?

MR LE ROUX: No Mr Chairperson, like I'm saying, if I chose a target I would have chosen a different target.

CHAIRPERSON: But that is why I asked, when the idea that the bombs must be planted, did you not question it?

MR LE ROUX: I did question it and the result of it, I did think about it yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And for yourself, was it not important to prevent Black and White conflict in South Africa?

MR LE ROUX: Mr Chairperson the biggest enemy we had at that stage was the Whites, it was not the Blacks as such.
It does not mean that if we are Afrikaner Boere, everybody agrees with our principles.  There are other people with different ideas.

CHAIRPERSON: But still, the results would have been far more serious this country if there had been Black and White conflict at that stage?

MR LE ROUX: We expected that the ANC would also act during that period.  It was put to us from the stages and from meetings that we had to prepare ourselves for that so it was assumed that there would be Black and White conflict.

CHAIRPERSON: I am talking about your own personal view.  How did you see things.  Here is possible large scale conflict between Black and White, am I doing the right thing?

MR LE ROUX: We did expect it.

CHAIRPERSON: I am talking about you.

MR LE ROUX: I did expect it in any case, the conflict that you are now talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not think that it was wrong?

MR LE ROUX: The bomb plantings?

CHAIRPERSON: No the conflict as a result of the bomb plantings?

MR LE ROUX: I'm not a person who likes conflict, I would rather like to live in my own freedom and in dignity.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's my point, you don't need a professor to realise that there would be Black and White conflict after the bombing of that specific area.  Is that not so?

MR LE ROUX: It could have occurred.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Le Roux can you just tell us how you imagined this conflict, in your own mind?

MR LE ROUX: It varies from the Order Groups, we were shown a document where it was indicated that some of the right wing members had been identified to be killed by the security forces of the time in order to neutralise us and I took this seriously and thought that they would do it.  I knew that if, and that is the same as the newspaper article of General Constand Viljoen, he expected it as well and just like him, I also expected that there would be chaos in the country and out of that, we would have been able to get the Volkstaat.

ADV BOSMAN: Do I understand you correctly to say that you thought that Black and White would indiscriminately start killing one another and that would have been the right climate from which to get the Volkstaat?

MR LE ROUX: Yes I think so Chairperson.  We wanted to enforce the Volkstaat in order to show the world and that's why we planted the bomb Chairperson, but I didn't see a Black/White conflict as such.

ADV BOSMAN: But I think that is what the Chairperson asked you and I am very confused now.  The Chairperson asked you if you foresaw that there was going to be Black/White conflict and with that I accepted general conflict.  Did you foresee a general Black/White conflict?

MR LE ROUX: I thought it could take place Chairperson.