bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-22

DUMA KHUMALO: Just a moment, when you stated that a certain Warrant Officer was to come here, I had a rope with me.  I wanted him to demonstrate to us how they prepared this noose because he was going to put it around my neck, how did they prepare this?  I wanted him to explain how he feels about preparing such a noose.
Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-21

MR DLAMINI: As the Chairperson has already expressed our appreciation for making the time to come and share with us your experiences from the time you had to leave a useful and constructive career teaching Mathematics at Fort Hare and your involvement in the MK to the time that you found yourself in Robben Island.  Your statement is very well presented and I prefer not to disturb that so I ask you to just go through your statement.  Perhaps we might stop you now and again for clarifications  before we forget but I think it's quite proper that we allow you to present your statement the way you have prepared it, thank you.  ... (not audible)
Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-21

UNKNOWN: No Tom I don't think it was nepotism, you must remember the type of person who worked in prisons.  The poor White, for instance there were five Kleynhans children there and as you know that the situation in those prisons was that only those that couldn't make it were sent there except for the top structure.  That was the easiest job to get so if your father was a warder you sort of grew up in that thing so you also wanted to be a warder.  I don't think, maybe I'm wrong but I don't think it was nepotism.  You see it was the situation, they were just being used.  They too were in a very serious state.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you.

DR BORAINE: Mr Masondo thank you very much and thank you especially for your enormous generosity of spirit having suffered enormously and constantly working for the good of your country, thank you very much.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.
Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-21

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to welcome you to the second day of our Prisons' hearings and we would also like to welcome the witnesses who have come to testify today and I would also like to welcome Mr Dumisa Ntsebeza who is the head of our Investigative Unit, who has just come from Cape Town to be with us, this morning.
 And for those of you who were not here yesterday, I would also like to introduce our panellists.  On my extreme left is Mr Mdu Dlamini, who is a Committee member of the Human Rights' Violations Committee and he is stationed in our KwaZulu Natal office in Durban.
 And next to him as I had already welcomed him, is Dumisa Ntsebeza, head of our Investigative Unit.  On my right, immediate right, is Hugh Lewin who is a member of the Human Rights' Violations Committee, based here in our Johannesburg office.
 And on my extreme right is Tom Manthata, a member of the Reparation and Rehabilitation Committee, also based in the Johannesburg office.  I am Joyce Seroke, a member of the Human Rights' Violations Committee.
 We welcome you.  I hope you all have copies of the programme and for those of you who were not here yesterday - yesterday we looked Robben Island and we had three people telling us about their experiences in that famous - or infamous - prison in Robben Island.
 We also had heard experiences of women who were in detention and who were incarcerated in prisons and we heard stories from famous families who told us about the experiences of their families, the Braam Fischer family and the Naidoo family. 
 So today, as you will see from your programme, we are going to be looking into several issues.  Issues of capital punishment, and experiences of people on death row.  Both from those who were sentenced and very importantly and interestingly, we are going to hear from a warder who served on death row.  
 We are going to hear how the State responded to reports of conditions in prison and we are going to hear about the experiences of other prisoners who were not incarcerated in our prisons in South Africa, but who experienced detention in the camps outside the country.
 The programme for today is that we are going to break for tea at about 10.30, depending on how much time we still have or when we, how the proceedings go and during lunch time, we are going to have a tour of the Fort for those who are interested to see some of the cells that are still kept as they were.
 It is only the women's prison that is not on view because it has been converted to offices.  And so those of you who would like to go round during lunch time, you are welcome.
 We also have an exhibition of photographs outside and we hope you will take time to go round to see some of those, to view some of those photographs and without any further waste of time, I would also like to welcome here specially a group of 20 trainees from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, headed by Mr Theo Albrechts.  We welcome you all.
 Now, we will call upon Paula McBride to come to the podium and she is going to lead us with a submission on capital punishment.
Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-21

MS MCBRIDE: Yes, you know there were Chaplains of every denomination who used to serve the people on death row.  And there were some of them, I would say all of them were deeply affected by what they saw, but there were definitely some of them who had a zeal to kind of gather souls that would go to heaven before they got there, so there were people, and I have a prejudiced view, I am an atheist, so I am probably not the right person to ask about church issues.
 But there were people working on death row who wanted to convert as many people as possible to God before their souls went to heaven.  My argument was can we, before converting people, can we try and stop the people who want to hang them.  The people who needed to be converted were the people who wanted to hang them, not the people who were sentenced to death.
 So I would, there were the SACC were a very active body in working against the death penalty and in giving very practical support to prisoners on death row.  As was the Catholic Bishop's Conference.
 There were other churches, and there are churches who have taken up position, that support the death penalty and so they wouldn't work against the death penalty.  All they would try and do is save souls and I objected very vigorously to that.  But as I say, we did have church bodies in the country and SACC and SACBC were noteworthy for that, who actually not only worked to stop the death penalty but actually supported prisoners and made them feel not just like people on the conveyor belt to death, but actually made them feel like human beings.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Paula, for this illuminating address and exposure about the death penalty.  And I am sure even those people who are not clamouring for a reinstatement of the death penalty as a result of a high rate of crime in this country, would pause to even want to make that call.
 In the last ten years, 16 countries in the world have abolished the death penalty and we should consider that if other countries are moving away from this, how on earth can we think that it is going to be a solution and just to quote a few statistics of the 81 Blacks convicted of murdering Whites between June 1982 and June 1983, 38 were executed.
 However, out of the 52 Whites convicted of murdering Whites, one was hanged, while none of the 29 Whites convicted of murdering Blacks, were executed.  So I think Paula is right to be so vehement that the death penalty should be regarded as a gross human right's violation.  Thank you very much.
 Ladies and gentlemen, I did not inform you about the headphones that we have here.  And those who need translations should note that Afrikaans will be on channel 1, English channel 2, Zulu and Xhosa channel 3, Sotho and Tswana channel 4.  However, if there are no people who specifically want Afrikaans, and who will be satisfied to listen to English, we will not have Afrikaans translation and the same goes for Sotho.  We can only do so if there are special requests for that, otherwise we will have Xhosa, English and Tswana.
Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-21

UNKNOWN: Now you mention that, yes there was a Judge ushered into us one day, he was on circuit and he'd just sentenced a woman to death in Barbeton.  He didn't say anything to us he just came in and looked and went out again, he certainly didn't invite us to speak to him and if I may, I'll just keep you one more minute.   I think another thing that the prisoners could be used for is education, what about literacy classes in jail why not?
 Two former prisoners here have described the wheelbarrow torture and that was being used at Barbeton during the days of the heat exhaustion trial, those prisoners who fell dead had been pushing wheelbarrows full of gravel up steep slopes, you know there are machines to do that job and people could be trained in the use of machines in jail.  We have to think about what we mean by rehabilitation and what the prisons are doing to achieve it, thank you.

MR LEWIN: Thanks Jean.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  Thank you very much Mrs Middleton, we appreciate very much your coming to us and good luck, thank you.  Just before I call the next witness could I just mention that Esther Basel who was a co-accused together with Jean Middleton is in the audience I gather and we're very glad to see her, thank you very much.  Could you just stand for a moment?  I'd also like to welcome Minister Mac Maharaj and his wife Mrs Maharaj if somebody would pass that on to him.
Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-22

CHAIRPERSON: Now, ladies and gentlemen, all the time we are considering prisons in South Africa.  We are now going to have an opportunity to hear what was happening in prisons or camps outside the country.
 Camps and prisons that were manned by our liberation movements.  We shall now call upon Mr Diliza Mthembu to come forward.
 Before you sit down Mr Mthembu, can you take the oath?  Will you take the oath or the affirmation?

DILIZA MTHEMBU: The oath.

DILIZA MTHEMBU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Mdu Dlamini is going to facilitate your testimony and I wonder for the benefit of the interpreters, are you going to give your testimony in English or ...

DILIZA MTHEMBU: I will take English.

CHAIRPERSON: English?  Thank you.

MR DLAMINI: Good afternoon Mr Mthembu.

DILIZA MTHEMBU: Good afternoon sir.

MR DLAMINI: Before you share with us your experiences in Angola, I will first ask you a few questions which are going to set the background so that when you relate your experiences this house is with you.
 Can I first confirm that you are with the SANDF as a Staff Sergeant based in Wonderboom?

DILIZA MTHEMBU: That is true.

MR DLAMINI: When did you go into exile, what year did you go in exile?

DILIZA MTHEMBU: I left the country 1976.

MR DLAMINI: 1976, and you came back in May 1990?

DILIZA MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR DLAMINI: And according to your statement your father at that time was working as an MK underground?

DILIZA MTHEMBU: When I left the country, my father was at home.  He was working and he recruited many young MK cadres to join the movement.

MR DLAMINI: Were you recruited by him yourself?

DILIZA MTHEMBU: I was also recruited by him.

MR DLAMINI: I am mentioning this because I notice from your statement that at some stage your father was accused of being a sell out?

DILIZA MTHEMBU: That is true.

MR DLAMINI: And that affected also your career with the MK and your position at that time was the Chief of Staff?

DILIZA MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR DLAMINI: But also I must say that not everybody within the ANC, believed that your father was a traitor.

DILIZA MTHEMBU: I believe so.

MR DLAMINI: But unfortunately eventually your father was killed and according to your statement the ANC claimed responsibility for assassinating your father?

DILIZA MTHEMBU: That is true.

MR DLAMINI: And that was a great concern for you and that is when things started going wrong with yourself as well.
 Can you take us from there and tell us exactly what happened, which camps were you detained in and the things that were happening to you.  Amongst others torture, assault etc, etc.  And yes, I think you have got 15 minutes to relate to us so that you select the highlights of your experiences.
Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-22

CHAIRPERSON: Diliza, thank you very much for coming to share your story with us today.  Obviously your father was ... (tape ends) ... and went outside the country to join MK.  The fact that you say that you are still bitter, you are still hurting inside, is also very sad, but I hope with constant counselling, you will come to terms with what has happened to you and you will find it easy and possible for you to reconcile.
 And I think my hope for you, I think is also in the fact that you have joined our army during this transformation that we are going through and you must be proud that you will be one of the people who are going to change the image of that army from what it was formerly to become an army that we will all be proud of in this country.
 That we will all feel safe that we are protected by that army and I think for me, there lies your hope.  Thank you very much.

DILIZA MTHEMBU: Thank you.
Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-21

DR BORAINE: As I indicated at the very beginning this morning, we have tried to have a window on a number of different areas affecting prison, prison life and prison abuse, the next group and it is a group, is one family and I'm going to read out their names, I hope there are enough chairs.  There are five members of one family who have an enormous record not something one would want, an enormous record of suffering and depravation and as I call their names I would be glad if they would come forward please.  Murthie Naidoo, Indres Naidoo, Prema Naidoo, Ramnie Naidoo and Shanthie Naidoo, thank you very much.
 Whilst they are coming up and I only mention this because I just got the note, it's got nothing to do with the fact that the Naidoo family are coming up but I understand his Excellency, The High Commissioner of India is amongst us, someone whom I know and I would like to welcome him very especially.  
 I know that earlier there were representatives from the Swiss Embassy and if there are any other Embassies represented I'd be very glad to know that so we can recognise them, not because they are kind of important but because it's very important for us that they take the time and the trouble to be here today, we are very glad to welcome His Excellency.  
 I would like to say a very warm word of welcome to all of you.  I think to help me at least you should tell me who you are so I know exactly who we're talking to.  Perhaps ... (tape blank)  is to stand to take the oath.  I assume that you will want to affirm the oath and we can do it together if you wouldn't mind standing please.  Switch the red button please.

NAIDOO FAMILY: (sworn states)

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much, please be seated and I'll hand over to my colleague Hugh Lewin.

MR LEWIN: Well Indres is closest but I understand that Indres you will be leading the evidence, is that right and that you know the form that these hearings take.
 We're very pleased that you have come forward as a family.  I also know one of the first things you will tell us about is that it's just not you the siblings that we're actually talking about but your father who's involvement in the struggle goes way back and your mother as well.   I think that for us as a Commission to hear a submission from a group like yourselves, is actually very important because it takes all sorts of points at the same time.  I'd like to thank you for that and really hand over to you to dramatize this as you like and then possibly give us some time afterwards to ask some questions, thank very much.
Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-21

DR BORAINE: I would like to, on behalf of the Commission thank you very much indeed.  It's a very unusual experience for the Commission to have five members of one family and as you say there are others who are following in your footsteps.  Over a century of struggle and commitment and we just want to thank you most warmly for sharing with us your own, very often bitter and difficult circumstances and to know that you are alive and able to continue to build where so much was destroyed, thank you very much indeed.
 Ladies and gentlemen can I ask you to spend just a moment please.  We had hoped to conclude with a submission from Correctional Services but they have informed us that they will not be doing so and we very much regret this as we don't quite know why but this brings us to the end of our first day.  May I remind you that we meet again to-morrow.  
 Can I say a word of thanks to all those who made this hearing possible.  Thank you to you for coming along, I'm very grateful to you that you've taken this trouble.  I'd like to thank the media for their assistance, a lot of this was broadcast live on radio and of course we have the television and many people who are from the print media.  
 I'd like to thank the Interpreters, I know that you haven't had a very hard job today but thank you very much indeed.  
 More especially to those who've actually come and given their witness today, I'd like to thank them very warmly.  
 We have experienced a total spectrum of South Africa united in suffering. We've been reminded of the awful, awful price that South Africa has had to pay for it's democracy but we've also been reminded over and over again that although many have been united in suffering and hardship and pain and death, there's also united in victory and a commitment to healing and reconciliation.  This I hope will be the message that goes from this hearing and this is what we will continue to work for and to build, a country which is of many colours, of both genders, of many races, of many sophistication's and many, many people all walking hopefully towards an even greater united and reconciled country.  
 Thank you to my panel and thank you to you all, good day.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-21

ZAHRAH NARKEDIEN: I think prior to that experience of my Black comrades, I was denying this history that was forced on my by the South African Government that you are a coloured and I was trying to shake it off and be this African woman that my parents tried to encourage me to be but I think when I came out I realised that I was being too much of a dreamer, too idealistic that even though I'm achieving this African women status this Coloured woman status may not be in the inside of me but it is on the outside of me.  I had to set that reality painful as it was, it was like taking a good few steps back or eating your own vomit, that's how bad I felt it was but it was reality and I decided to rather embrace and deal with it.  I make it my  business whenever I talk to Black colleagues or Black friends and if they make remarks about Coloured people as Coloured people, I correct them immediately.
 Even with my fellow people who still see themselves as Coloured, I now help them to get over that without pushing them the way I used to and in the job I'm doing now as the Director of Welfare in the Northern Cape where the Coloureds are in the majority and they do feel this minority status, I now deal with that minority status.  I've accepted it as reality whereas I didn't want to acknowledge it, I just wanted to see this African dream and that was it.

DR BORAINE: Mrs Narkedien you've said that you're not sure that you will ever become fully a whole person again, I think you are.  I think you have helped us and I think it's when we listen to people like you who has endured what you have it helps to make us whole again.  We thank you very much and we commend you.  We wish you well in the work you're doing and we trust that the courage that you displayed will be taken into this new country of ours and the very tough thing you had to say about discrimination which is much, much wider than we ever imagine, much more hurtful, not easy for you to say that and to say it publicly.  I'm not sure if you know but your voice is being carried all over South Africa on radio and I'm very glad of that because I think the whole country needs to be healed, thank you very much.

ZAHRAH NARKEDIEN: Thank you.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much indeed to the audience and those who are here and supporters.  We will break now and I ask you please to be in your seats promptly at 2 o'clock as we have a very full programme and we do want to give everybody as much time as possible.  We'll start again promptly at 2 o'clock, thank you.
HEARING  ADJOURNS
Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-22

CHAIRPERSON: We shall now call upon Benjamin Pogrund.  Welcome.  Would you take the oath or the  affirmation?

BENJAMIN POGRUND: Thank you.  I will take the oath.

BENJAMIN POGRUND: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Hugh is going to help you with your testimony.

MR LEWIN: I don't think much is needed with this lot.  Benjamin, what we are looking at as you've heard, is particularly the Strachan case in 1965, but then you were involved in a number of similar cases involving prisons and reports about prisons.
 We would be very grateful if you could tell us about that, but we will have to be as brief as possible.

BENJAMIN POGRUND: yes, sure.

MR LEWIN: Thank you very much and sorry for keeping you for so long.
Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-22

MR LEWIN: Thank you very much.  I would just like to take you back to one phrase that you used and confirm that you are giving it under oath and that is that you were the victims of organised mass purgery by the Government?

BENJAMIN POGRUND: Yes, definitely.

MR LEWIN: Because going on from there, you do mention the fact that conditions improved as a result of the articles and certainly inside prisons people talked about pre-Strachan and post-Strachan but what also needs to be noted I think, is that having won this particular case, the Prisons Act was fairly heavily tightened up and subsequently the Police Act and the Defence Act were both tightened up to enable the same sort of ban to be placed on information about what happens within those institutions and can I just take it that as a recommendation the way of preventing that, would be in your view, to maintain vigilance through the press for instance?

BENJAMIN POGRUND: Absolutely.

MR LEWIN: Thank you very much.  Thank you Ms Chairperson.

BENJAMIN POGRUND: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Pogrund, for sharing this with us and I can assure you that we have taken note of your suggestions and when the TRC is at a stage of making those recommendations to the Government, I am sure those are some of the suggestions we will have in mind.  Thank you very much.

BENJAMIN POGRUND: Thank you.
Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-22

CHAIRPERSON: Our next witness is Joseph Seremane.  Welcome Mr Seremane, we are really sorry that we have kept you waiting, but I am sure that you understand that we have had to go through this process.

JOSEPH SEREMANE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Mr Manthata is going to lead your testimony.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Jo, you are here to talk about your younger brother who last left into exile, joined MK and he didn't return with the rest of the returnees and you have not had any joy from the explanations given as you went about asking, enquiring about your younger brother Chief.
 Can you please tell us about the steps you took in trying to find out the whereabouts of your younger brother in the ANC circles.
Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-22

MR DLAMINI: If you could please just give us her full name as well as her full address so that we can contact her if we need any further information?

LEUYANDA TYATYAM: We were staying at the same place, that is Stutterheim.  At the (indistinct) mission and the Nyondo family still stays there, that is Buyiswa Nyondo's place or home.

CHAIRPERSON: Leuyanda, it is apparent from the way in which you rendered your testimony, that you were very close to your grandfather, you loved him very much.
 And you still think a lot of him, that is a very clear fact.  We don't even need to ask you any further.  We know that you are going through a very traumatic time, because you said that at that time you were still very young, you were ten years old.
 But you know what happened, you had certain aims and he was your role model, he also loved you.  As Dumisa has already pointed out, that this matter could possibly be investigated further.   We don't want to give any promises, but we do make an undertaking that we shall investigate the matter further so that there could be some clarity as to how he died, who killed him and why wasn't there any investigation with regard to his death.
 It is not a minor thing, we still have some more hard work to do and a lot of spade work in order to get to the surface of this hole heinous deed.  We thank you very much for having come before us to relate this story with regard to the death of your grandfather, thank you very much.
Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-21

DR BORAINE: I gather lunch was a little late therefore we are starting a little late but we are very pushed for time so I'd be grateful for your cooperation, thank you.  We are departing slightly from the format that we had this morning and I'm very please to welcome Doctor Judith van Heerden of the University of the Western Cape who has written a thesis on Prison and Health.  You can relax she's not going to give you the entire thesis but she is going to make a presentation and I will ask her to do that now and Tom Manthata will facilitate the presentation.  We wish we could give you more time but twenty or twenty five minutes is our maximum, thank you.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Judith you are welcome, can you please do your presentation fairly relaxed and the only thing will be the question of time so can you please go on?

DR BORAINE: Could I just interrupt you right away and say my apologies, you're from the University of Cape Town and not the University of the Western Cape.  I was given the wrong information but I don't want you to feel in any way that I'm parading you as someone you are not.  All those Universities are good so we are very pleased to welcome you, please go on.
Special Hearings — Prison Hearings — 1997-07-21

DR BORAINE: You've heard the comments from some of the panel.  Braam Fischer was a son of Africa and knew no distinction in race or creed or language and thus stands as an enormous symbol of unity in a very divided society and you must be very thankful that even though he was in obscurity for so long, somehow that light went way beyond the prison cell and way beyond his death.   There are many, many people who paid tribute to him today and you have done that and we hope that the hope you express, that because of this it's less likely that it can happen again, will come true, thank you very much.
Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — 1997-10-14

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, I don't want to interrupt you, I just wonder with the time constraint whether - I don't want to push you because all of what you are doing is very important for us, whether you would be able, given a time line of 10H45, we want to break at 10H45 for tea, whether you would have managed to give a summary of the first 38 pages and your new seven page (...indistinct)

MR R F BOTHA: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson, I am at page 15, I am almost halfway through the 39 which I think is not too bad ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, 39 steps, yes.  Let's see you are going quite well, I just wanted you to be aware of sort of the objective to aim at.  Thank you.

MR R F BOTHA: Yes.  No of course I respect your sentiments Chairperson.  May I just say that I worked two weeks on this and I would like to say it today but I will try and limit it.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, I don't want to sort-of get into the way of your wonderful eloquence.  Go ahead.
Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — 1997-10-14

CHAIRPERSON: I think we should probably break for tea.

MR R F BOTHA: Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And then start at 11.

MR R F BOTHA: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your very co-operative stance, we are most grateful.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: We resume and you are getting on to a substantive part Mr Botha, the sort of last seven pages or something like that.  Thank you very much.

MR R F BOTHA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  The..... (microphone giving trouble)

CHAIRPERSON: I think it just might be possible for you to start again Mr Botha, thank you.

MR R F BOTHA: Mr Chairperson thank you.  I am afraid there is a noise here now.

CHAIRPERSON: I have to speak because they are now doing a radio commentary reporting and they would obviously always want to know what is happening, they can't see us.  What is happening is that we are trying to sort out a difficulty with closed circuit television in the next room and we hope we can have it sorted out.  Thank you very much.  Third time lucky!
Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: When is the election!!  (Laughter)

MR VLOK: No I am finished.  Thank you.

MR VLOK: IS EXCUSED

DR BORAINE: Mr Wessels do you wish to take the oath or the affirmation?

LEON WESSELS: The affirmation.

LEON WESSELS: (affirms)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — 1997-12-04

MR MCADAM: Sorry,  Dr Barnard, just one little thing that struck me.  It's  Ilan Lax just for the listeners out there.  I keep forgetting to say my name.  You referred us to this passage in this document.  It struck me as you were reading it, I highlighted something which with the benefit of hindsight you'll probably concede is part of the problem.  I will read it again
"In the way in which the revolutionaries and their associates used democratic installations and methods...."
I find that utterly ironic but there it is looking back certainly history and the world at large regarded us as exactly not democratic.  We certainly weren't a democracy in any meaningful sense of the word, yet here is a document that informs policy-makers, that informs the security structures of the country and the assumption in this document is that we are a democratic country and that our constitutional order is a democratic order and clearly that can't possibly be so.  Looking back obviously we have to accept that.

MR LYSTER: That brings us to the end.  If there are any issues which we come across we would like to be able to put them to you in writing through your counsel.  We will certainly let you know if there are any matters which need any further clarification.
 Thank you very much for coming today and when I suggested earlier on when I felt that you were not forthright I certainly didn't mean that you were not telling the truth.  If you gained that perception I apologise.  But we thank you very much for coming today and assisting the Commission.

MR MCADAM: Mr Chairperson during the adjournment I had a discussion with Mr Maritz who does act for General Malan, he's also been subpoenad to give evidence before this Commission and firstly  I was informed that the General does not intend to make  any detailed written submission but his role will be primarily to answer questions put by the Commission on issues that the Commission needs relevant.  We've already lost some time today because certain documentation which should have gone to the witnesses was not received and where we had documentation it appeared there was incorrect numbering of the pages.  It's been suggested that we then have General Malan's evidence tomorrow and that I then be given the opportunity for the rest of today to check the documentation with Mr Maritz to ensure that the documents which they are not missing and correct pagination, if that is acceptable to the Commission then it would be appropriate possibly to take the adjournment until tomorrow morning.

MR LYSTER: I won't take that decision on my own.  I think that we'll just adjourn for about 5minutes to discuss it and we'll let you know immediately we made a decision.  Thank you.

LUCAS DANIEL BARNARD: Mr  Chairman before you adjourn I have two documents of the Commission I don't want to be stuck with them.  It's extracts from the amnesty applications of Schoon and vd Merwe.  May I just for the record hand them back.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR LYSTER: We have to start again for a brief session before we close this evening at about quarter to five.

MR MARITZ: For the record my name is S.J. Maritz of the Pretoria bar and instructed by Arenz, Penzhorn. And I appear for General Malan. He has or he is attending this sitting by reason of a subpoena which was served upon him. And you will recall that some time ago General Malan approached the Commission of his own volition and handed up and I think placed on record a written submission which was quite lengthy and which was substantiated with relevant documents. He was also thereafter questioned by a number of members of the panel which heard him, and his evidence in that regard is also available.
 We have received together with the subpoena quite a number of documents which we have dealt with during consultations and we are ready and able to precede therewith. The difficulty is, as has been pointed out by my learned colleague, Mr McAdam that apparently the page numbering is not the same of some of these things and we're not sure that we have the same body of documents. So we would like time to sort those little problems out. On the other hand you've indicated that you wish to proceed to not to lose too much time until round about five 'o clock this afternoon. Now, I'm making this terribly long.
 Let me get to the point. In preparing to attend this sitting General Malan was not of the view that he could substantially add to what he has already said to another panel of the Commission. That on consideration he has decided to seek leave to address you on issues which he thinks are very important in regard to the structure and operation of the old SADF. And if, he says he's ready to proceed and if we could deal with that beforehand I'll be very grateful. So it would have been in a nature of a short resume of the issues which he regards as very important. Thank you.

MR LYSTER: Oh no it would be fine if he wanted to start like that. I take it there's no written document to hand in.

MR MARITZ: No. We've not prepared a document but he will with reference to documents and if it's any fresh documents we undertake then to make copies available overnight and have it for you tomorrow morning. Thank you.

MR LYSTER: Ja. Thank you. Mr Malan we welcome you here today. Thank you for your patience and General Malan for waiting all day and before you begin we'd like to ask you to stand and briefly take the oath. And can we have your full names please?
Special Hearings — State Security Council Hearings — UNKNOWN

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: I wouldn't know. That wasn't my experience. I can distinctly remember in a period in round about '84, '85 and we had a terrible fight the two of us because I disagreed with a decision. I even went so far as to appoint a Commission of Inquiry to see whether my decision was right or wrong and I got business people from outside to do it. And they reported back to the State President. So it's fine, it's not a nice thing to have. If you're there, you're there for a purpose and then you've got to, you have to make a standpoint, you've got to do it. You've got to have the guts of doing it. Generally speaking, fine there was disagreements. Mostly between colleagues a lot of disagreement and eventually we agreed upon the solution to it. I think that's the way I experienced it.

MR LAX: Just one last question. And that was your concern just in relation to that particular series of cross-border raids that were simultaneous that you spoke about, was the foreign implications and yet for some reason it wasn't, certainly on Mr Pik Botha's evidence it wasn't discussed  with him. It strikes one as a bit odd.

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Sure but I'm not sure whether the leakage might have been at foreign affairs but there was definitely a leakage and that was my instruction.

MR LAX: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR LYSTER: Thank you General that's all we have. If there are other issues which we would like to follow up on and you'd like to be able to do it through your attorney?

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Ja.

MR LYSTER: Thank you for being here today and for answering the questions and co-operating with us. And thanks also to others who've co-operated in this hearing. Thanks to the rector of the college, who made this place available, technical staff, interpreters, media liaison people. logistics and the administrative staff and the researchers and investigators.

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Mr Chairman can I just retaliate on that? I say thank you very much the way you conducted it, for the Commissioners here, the questions the way they set it. I tried to be as open as I could. A special word of thanks to Mr McAdam and Mr van Zyl.

MR MARITZ: (...indistinct)

MR VAN ZYL: In needling me.

ANDRE MARANDOM MALAN: Thanks to the translators and the staff here. Thank you very much for the lunch and the tea and the coffee, it was most enjoyable. And above all thanks for being Cape Town.

MR LYSTER: Thank you, we are adjourned ja.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Special Hearings — Trojan Horse Hearings — 1997-06-02

MARY BURTON: Mrs Abrahams, will you stand please to make the oath. Could you stand? Are you willing to swear the oath?

AMINA ABRAHAMS: (sworn states)

TOYER ABRAHAMS: (sworn states)

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Glenda Wildschut.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Thank you ma'am chair. Good morning, I think it's still morning. It's afternoon, I believe. Oh yes it is. Mrs Abrahams and Mr Abrahams, - Mrs Abrahams can you hear me through, can you hear the translation through the earphones?

MS ABRAHAMS: Yes.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: I know that in this community, we speak both English and Afrikaans. So I'll speak English to you, I'm sure you'll hear through the earphones and you can speak Afrikaans, or whichever language you prefer.
 We heard the story of the Trojan Horse Event from different angles. We heard Mr Rasool tell us about what had happened and what happened subsequent to that. We've also heard Mrs Ryklief and other people, but now it's an opportunity for you to tell us what happened to you on that day the 15th October 1985. So please can you tell us, from your perspective, what happened?
Special Hearings — Trojan Horse Hearings — 1997-05-20

CHAIRPERSON: We would like to call our two last witnesses this afternoon, that is Dennis Cruywagen en Willie de Klerk.  Please come up and Mary Burton will lead them.
 Dr Ramashala is going to administer the oath.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: May I ask if you want to take an oath or an affirmation?

DENNIS CRUYWAGEN: I want to take an oath.

WILLIE DE KLERK: I want to take the oath?

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Oath, okay.

DENNIS CRUYWAGEN: (sworn states)

WILLIE DE KLERK: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mary Burton is going to lead you in the evidence, I just wish to welcome you once more.  Please go ahead Mary.

MARY BURTON: Thank you Chairperson.  I add my welcome and my thanks to you for coming and at the end of this long and quite emotional day, we are very grateful to you both for being with us.
 Mr Cruywagen, you are first on my list, so please will you go ahead and make your statement to us.
Special Hearings — Trojan Horse Hearings — 1997-05-20

MARY BURTON: Do you want to ask questions or should we go straight on?  We have noted your comments about Mr De Klerk's reputation as a photographer.  I think those of us of lived in Cape Town during those years, know well the quality of his work and will remember it.  Mr De Klerk,
please would you like to go ahead and make your statement to us.
Special Hearings — Trojan Horse Hearings — 1997-05-21

CHAIRPERSON: We had intended to call as our next witness Mr Salmon Pienaar, but we wish to show the video that has been spoken of which shows the event, and because of technical problems with the lights and so on we would like to show that at the time of the lunch break and we therefore would like now to call Mr Douw Vermeulen as our next witness.

DOUW VERMEULEN: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Gobodo-Madikizela will lead the questions.

ADV VAN ZYL: Chairperson if I may, Mr Vermeulen testified before a Committee of this Commission on Monday.  A statement was then handed to the Commission, I trust that you are in possession of that statement?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we have a copy of the statement.  Could we make sure that Mr Ntsebeza has one among his papers. Thank you.

ADV VAN ZYL: We have in the past asked the witnesses to read the statement, I don't know whether you wish him to read the statement.  It was discussed with him on Monday but not all the members of the Commission were present at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: May I just consult with the other members.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: That was an "in camera" hearing and this is a public hearing, we want to be able to refer to the statement so if you could read it please.

ADV VAN ZYL: Thank you.
Special Hearings — Trojan Horse Hearings — 1997-05-20

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Mrs Fridie, today must have not been an easy day for you, certainly difficult for this community and for all of us in this hall to have to relive the events of October 1985 and particularly as a young mother and a young wife, you lost your husband and as a couple and as a little family, you must have had lots of dreams together and you shared some of those dreams with us, that you wanted to continue studying and move on in life.
 But I am sure that there must have been lots of dreams that you and your husband shared about your future together.  And that those dreams could not have been fulfilled because your husband was killed then.  But one of the things that for me stands out is that your husband was being a responsible adult, that he had gone to that meeting as an adult because he felt he needed to express his solidarity and express his concern about what had happened to children.
 And that in being a responsible adult, and going to those meetings, his life was ended and I hope that perhaps it is not enough, but perhaps it is a little consolation for you, that that's what happened to him when he was being responsible. 
 I do want to also express my admiration to you for trying your very best to do things to help with the education of your young boy and helping him to work through the fact that he doesn't have a dad. In your way trying to make sense of it in a way.
 We want to honour people like yourselves.  These proceedings are not only just to demonstrate victimhood, to demonstrate that people have been rendered victims in the process, but we would also like to demonstrate that there were victors and people who were survivors who rose above those circumstances and who transcended the horror of what had happened and I would like to acknowledge that transcendence that you have showed us also today. 
 Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mrs Fridie.  We would like to call Dr Ebrahim Akoojee to come up to the stage please.  Dr Akoojee.
 Good afternoon to you Dr Akoojee.  Please do take a seat.

EBRAHIM AKOOJEE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We know that you have a prepared statement, you are welcome to read it if you wish to do so.  Mrs Mary Burton is going to lead you and we are going to ask Dr Ramashala to administer the oath.

EBRAHIM AKOOJEE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mary Burton.

MARY BURTON: Thank you Chairperson.  Welcome once again Dr Akoojee.  You have given us two written statements, one relating to the Trojan Horse incident itself and one to the death of Mr Fridie.  You are very welcome as the Chairperson has said to read them if you wish or to speak, as you choose.
 Shall we go in chronological order, would you like to (indistinct)
Special Hearings — Trojan Horse Hearings — 1997-05-21

UNKNOWN: I told you that the operation was a success insofar as arrests were made, but for me personally it was something that affected me very deeply, the fact that a 10 or 11 year-old child was killed in the process.  That was never our intention and it was not foreseen.  That was not the purpose of the whole operation.
 And if I look back today after 12 years, and I look back with hindsight then I would say that if I was to plan such an operation again I wouldn't be involved in such an operation, on the planning thereof.  But the circumstances in those times forced us to take certain steps and that which we didn't foresee took place.
 I think I am speaking not only on my own behalf but on behalf of all those involved in the operation.  We bitterly regret what happened.  We deeply regret the fact that children were killed, as we regret the death of each and every person in the execution of police duties because that is not the duty of a police officer.  The duty of the police is to maintain law and order, but in the process of maintaining law and order these things happen.  These things are realities and people must accept them, but that doesn't mean we are insensitive and that does not mean that we are not sorry about what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Loedolff, we have no more questions.  Thank you very much.
Special Hearings — Trojan Horse Hearings — 1997-05-21

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Salmon Pienaar and Advocate de Jager and Mr du Plessis his legal representatives.  I am going to ask Dr Ramashala to administer the oath.

SALMON PIENAAR: (sworn states)

ADV DE JAGER: Mrs Burton, before Mr Pienaar starts with his evidence may I just place on record that a short summary or a submission has been drawn which we have already put at the disposal of the Commission.
Then secondly matters that do not really affect the situation of my client in respect of the facts in general, but I thought I must bring under your attention, having heard the evidence being given and questions asked, is one aspect which I think is of importance is that when we were dealing with the trial in the Supreme Court and also in the - well not finding in the Appellate Division, but there were many tape recordings of the so-called Trojan Horse incident in circulation.  Apparently one was made by CNN and the other one was by the BBC.  There is one which gives you direct footage and which has become Exhibit 42 in the Appellate Division record and I think it is important that one should get hold of the real original.   Because what happened is that the - I am not sure and I am saying this under correction, and you must remember this also happened long ago in my memory and I've dealt with many cases in the meantime, but the one tape recording was definitely edited, but the one handed in by a Mr Everton, and his evidence appears in the Appellate Division record, or Everson rather, Christopher David Knoll Everson, from pages 1694 onwards and then again his cross-examination from 2215, and I know that you have already, I suppose, studied the record but I just wanted to attract your attention to that specific portion.  That deals with the issue of the video which I think is important because the video can become confusing if one looks at edited versions of it.
Then as we ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, may I just respond to that point, Mr Everson was one of our witnesses at yesterday's hearing ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Oh I was not aware.

CHAIRPERSON: And we will certainly check on the - and thank you for the information you've given us about the videos available.

ADV DE JAGER: Then in the next instance, I think as far as the signal concerning General Wandrag's signal dated somewhere in '84, I think it's 5.9.84, I think one should look at that signal in the context of the evidence which he has given from pages 2219 in the Appellate Division record.  And I think you have already done so and if I am wasting your time by pointing this out to you, but I think it is important that one must get the context of what happened there.
We may then proceed with my client's evidence if you so wish.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Can I just confirm that the video we have used is the one that was produced by Mr Everson and I think it was CBS not CNN.

ADV DE JAGER: It may be CBS, yes, yes, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Please go ahead Mr Pienaar.