Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

MR WESSELS: On page 7 in the middle of the page you state
"Burger wanted to know from me whether Ferdi knew about the involvement of me and the others.  I responded no."
Is that correct?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes I possibly responded in that way.

MR WESSELS: Why did you respond in this fashion?  Why didn't you tell Mr Burger that Ferdi knew about you but that he shouldn't worry about it, that he was also a member of the organisation?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Perhaps because I didn't want to place Burger in the position where he could discriminate against me, so to speak, I had already made a mistake and I had been placed on ice as a result of it, I was very hesitant to approach this.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Chairperson, perhaps one should see if this sentence is within the broader context of the statement or whether it only pertains to Aitchison.

CHAIRPERSON: It looks like it may just be referring to the "betrokkenheid" with regard to Aitchison.

MR WESSELS: I don't have a problem with that, Mr Chairman.
	And then you proceeded and at the bottom of that page you state that later you again reported to Burger that Ferdi had again been arrested.  
"He phoned Joe immediately, Joe assured him that he would speak to the Chairperson and that we should not worry."
Is that correct?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR WESSELS: But there was tremendous uncertainty with you regarding Mr Barnard's position at that stage, isn't that so?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes there was uncertainty.

MR WESSELS: You were uncertain, you were not sure whether he was involved with Aitchison and Lubowski, isn't that so?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I don't know, it may have been.

MR WESSELS: You don't know?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR WESSELS: But you knew that he was involved with Webster?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Correct.

MR WESSELS: And that this was a very prominent matter which was under investigation.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Didn't you think it feasible that at that stage you should start telling the truth to everyone, in order to ensure that the organisation would come to the aid of you and your friend Mr Barnard?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Up to that point I had not yet been exposed, in other words, exposed as being involved with Mr Barnard.  I accepted that with regard to the remark that was made there that Joe would see to it that everything would be sorted out, that he had realised that there was a problem, that he knew what my involvement with Mr Barnard was and that he would act accordingly.

MR WESSELS: Very well.  Later you came out of detention and you swiftly realised that the CCB was not going to be accepting responsibility for Webster, is that correct?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: What do you mean that I realised swiftly?  I saw from the beginning what Mr Verster's attitude was.

MR WESSELS: But shortly after your release the Harms Commission commenced and Slang van Zyl gave evidence there regarding involvement and he testified how Joe Verster had made enquiries about Webster.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: You were aware of those activities, you were aware that the CCB denied any involvement with Webster.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Just before we proceed with the history I would like to take you back to the murder of Dr Webster himself.  You heard from Mr Barnard that you had to kill Dr Webster, correct?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I hear what from Mr Barnard?

MR WESSELS: That you had to kill Dr Webster.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And you were told that it would be by means of a shotgun.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Did you ask him precisely how you were going to do it?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: We must have discussed it.  I accepted - yes, I asked him.

MR WESSELS: You asked him?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR WESSELS: What did you ask him?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Precisely how we were going to do it, what his plan was.

MR WESSELS: And what did he tell you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: He stipulated that I would drive, that he would sit in front on the left and as soon as we had the target in sight within a limited distance, he would fire one shot and kill the person.

MR WESSELS: Was that at the beginning, before you began monitoring him?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It must have been during that as well.

MR WESSELS: When you went out with him the first time, did you know that this was the plan?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I knew that he had to be killed and then we started our discussion.  So I assume that that was the first time.  We had to be prepared every time in case we had the target in sight.

MR WESSELS: Did you have the balaclavas in the vehicle every time and were you armed at every time?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, with all the occasions that I accompanied him.

MR WESSELS: And on these occasions did you accompany him during the day?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's correct.

MR WESSELS: What sort of shotgun was it?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was a sworn off shotgun.

MR WESSELS: What sort?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I cannot recall the name.

MR WESSELS: What sort?  Automatic, semi-automatic?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was a double-barrel.

MR WESSELS: And did you know that make of shotgun?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR WESSELS: Did you know that it was his shotgun?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: He said it was a shotgun that he had obtained.

MR WESSELS: Did you ask him from where he had obtained it?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: As Mr Barnard testified, he had a lot of access to many weapons and I didn't question it.

MR WESSELS: Didn't you think that it was something that the CCB must have provided?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I accepted that he suggested to the CCB that he would obtain the firearm.

MR WESSELS: What was the position of Mr Riley?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: As far as I know there was no position.

MR WESSELS: Now on this particular day, how did the murder take place?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: After a period of time that we spent there on the 1st of May we saw a white bakkie pass by our vehicle, Mr Barnard identified the bakkie at a distance and saw that it was Dr Webster accompanied by Maggie Freedman, he told me to drive slowly in the direction of Dr Webster, the balaclavas were put over our heads and our faces as we approached the vehicle.  Mr Barnard prepared himself in the left of the vehicle with the shotgun which already had a pellet in it.

MR WESSELS: Where was he seated, in front or at the back?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: In front on the left.  We approached the vehicle and I recall that he called out to Webster and that Dr Webster looked around in his direction in surprise and motioned towards the vehicle.  I remained dead still and waited for the shot.  After he had fired the shot I pulled away.

MR WESSELS: And you drove off?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, I drove off.

MR WESSELS: And you were pursued by a vehicle.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: There was a vehicle.  I don't know to which point the vehicle pursued us, but yes there was a vehicle.

MR WESSELS: And did Mr Barnard tell you what he was going to do then with this firearm of his?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: He said that he would see to its destruction.

MR WESSELS: Did he tell you anything about what he was going to do with regard to his handler?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: He just said that he would inform him accordingly that the project had been executed.

MR WESSELS: Were you aware that he had paged Mr Luitingh a number of times in subsequent days?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: He told me at a certain point that he was struggling to get hold of Lafras.

MR WESSELS: And did you tell you that he had managed to get hold of Lafras?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: At a stage he mentioned that he had spoken to him.

MR WESSELS: And what did he tell you?