Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-17

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: When I went to Xala I was in the Barkly East and I left Barkly East with Moss and Shabalala.  When we left there we were to fetch a certain lady from Elliott whose name was Shosha.  We left, the four of us, we left for Xala.  When we arrived there we started at the security offices with the aim of telling the people that we were around there.
	And with the aim of getting Batandwa's whereabouts.  We went to Constable Numa who told me that Batandwa was around, he past their offices driving in a Golf and he went to where he was staying in Mr Ntsibeza's residence.  We arrived in Mr Ntsibeza's place.  We parked the kombi, the car that we were driving, the kombi and Braam Moss instructed me to get into the house to call him, that's Batandwa.  Inside the house there was a tall gentleman who was thin, who was sitting in the sitting room.  
	I asked for Batandwa.  He said to me he was going to call him because he was still in the bathroom.  This gentleman left and he came back and said Batandwa was coming.  I left the house, I went back to the kombi.  While we were still in the kombi Batandwa came, he came to the kombi.  Just before he get into the kombi he pointed at Shosha and said, she was the one whom they were together in the training.

CHAIRPERSON: Who pointed out to the other person as being the person with whom they trained?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It was Shosha.

CHAIRPERSON: So as the deceased was approaching the kombi Shosha pointed out to the deceased as being the person with whom she had undergone military training?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That's correct.

MR DILIZO: So in other words he knew that Batandwa Ndondo was required in connection with training, military training?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DILIZO: Proceed.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: He got into the kombi when he was inside.  In the front seat there was Braam Moss who was a driver, in the passenger's seat there was Shabalala.  Behind them it was myself and he came and occupied the seat behind me and right in the back seat there was Shosha.   Braam Moss and the others talked to him and they said to him they asked him to leave with them to discuss a certain matter and Batandwa left with them, with us and the kombi took a direction to the police station.
	When we were on the way, on the road I saw the kombi turning against the direction of the police station.  Mr Braam Moss instructed me to produce my ID to introduce myself as a policeman.  I did so.  I gave him my ID document and I told him that I was a policeman.

MR DILIZO: Just a minute, who is this Braam Moss?  What can you tell us about him?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Braam Moss was the gentleman who was driving the kombi.

MR DILIZO: Do you know whether he was a policeman or not?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: On the way to Xala I tried to ask if all of us in that kombi were policemen but they said they were not police.  They said they were members, they were ex members of the MK and they left the organisation.  They were working for the Government but they were not policemen.

MR DILIZO: Does that also apply to Shabalala and Shosha?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That's correct.  When I told him that I was a policeman I saw him opening the window of the kombi and he jumped out of the window.  When he jumped I tried to catch him by his leg but I was not successful.  At that time the kombi was about to stop.  Shabalala was already out of the kombi and he caught him.  When he caught him there was a struggle.  He managed to escape.  He ran away.
	And Braam Moss was already out of the kombi from the driver's seat.  They tried to chase him, both of them.  While they were still chasing him they started shooting.  They went to a certain house.  They went behind the house.  During that time myself and Shosha were still in the kombi.  When they went behind the house they were still shooting.  I thought about all the things that they were saying in the kombi while we were still going to that place.  I decided to get out of the kombi.

MR DILIZO: What is it that they told you that you thought of in the kombi?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: When I was asking them if they were all policemen they said they were not police but they were trained outside and they said, we went on with the conversation but I realised that in their operations when wherever they were, when they operate they normally get someone who is not a part of that operation and when they finished the operation they will come back and kill that person.	That's the reason that made me to leave the kombi.

MR DILIZO: Do you mean that you also thought that on their return you might be killed if you did not participate?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That's correct.

MR DILIZO: Okay, proceed.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I left the kombi.  I went to the right hand side.  When I was in the yard I saw them coming from another kombi, from another corner that was in front.  Shabalala was behind Batandwa and Braam Moss was also behind.  They were still firing.  I saw Batandwa, he stood still in a rough way.  I took off my firearm and I fired one bullet.

MR DILIZO: Firing where?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I was pointing at him.

MR DILIZO: Could you please tell the Honourable Chairperson and the Honourable Members what were your intentions of going out of the kombi rushing towards the direction of the deceased?  What did you have in mind at that stage?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: At that time I was thinking that it might happen, that he ran and disappeared.  I was also going to chase him but I saw them coming again from that corner.

MR DILIZO: So what I want to find out whether by joining them, were your intentions to arrest him or to join them in the shooting of the deceased or what?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I was intending to arrest him.

MR DILIZO: Okay proceed.

MR DUKADA: Sorry Mr Chairperson, may I ask you Mr Dandala, I heard you explaining that Batandwa stood in a rough way, it was interpreted as standing in a rough way, what exactly do you mean by that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It looked like he was choking.

MR DILIZO: Did you fully come to a complete standstill when you fired a shot at him at that stage?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I shot while he was standing but after that he fell.

MR DILIZO: Can you tell this Committee, you intended to arrest him or to prevent him from the escape.  Now you have suddenly come to a standstill, now you are firing at him already in a standstill, what can you say about that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: About that I had already heard that he was trained, he was a trained soldier.  He was a trained ANC soldier.  My intention was to catch him, to prevent him from running away because a trained member of the ANC, they were people who were actually fighting the Government of the day.

MR DILIZO: Yes, proceed.

MS SIGODI: When you saw him standing still, just before shooting, how far were you approximately from him?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I think it was about 8 metres if I am not mistaken.

MR DILIZO: Okay, proceed.