Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-19

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: There's nothing I observed because we were far. They were at a particular place and we were at another place and then we were tired.  Since we started with the operation, I don't remember how many days we were not changing our clothes, we were not washing, we were dirty.  So we had a feeling to wash and sleep, so that we could be refreshed.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you sleep at Winkelspruit that night?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Do you mean after Ms Kubheka arrived there?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: We did not sleep at Winkelspruit, we slept at CR Swart.

CHAIRPERSON: How long did you stay at Winkelspruit after Ms Kubheka was apprehended, or caught?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: After she has arrived we stayed a little bit, then we left thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Just want to get some idea as to how long you stayed, what is a little bit, a few hours or a few minutes?  If you can just give an indication more-or-less.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Approximately two to three hours, though I don't remember well.  Approximately two to three hours.

CHAIRPERSON: And why did you go there at all?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: We wanted to find out as to whether should we go back to CR Swart or not.

MR HUGO: And Mr Radebe, did you have any idea as to what was being done to Ms Kubheka by the white members at Winkelspruit?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: We were thinking that she was asked questions.

MR HUGO: And did you - when you abducted her and when she was taken to Winkelspruit, did you at any particular point in time foresee the possibility that she would be killed by the white members?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I heard the question that I did not know that she would be killed.  I did not know those people who were taken to the alleged safe-house, as to whether they were alive or dead, but what I knew is that they wanted to eliminate the cell which was in KwaMashu.

MR HUGO: Were you ever told that they were going to kill Ms Kubheka, in particular, and that is why you had to abduct here and bring her to them?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: Then just in conclusion, did you - before this operation, did you know Ms Kubheka personally or did you have any sort of personal motive to kill her or to abduct her?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson, I did not know her up to the day where I saw her for the first time.

MR HUGO: And were you paid, or did you receive any compensation for your participation in this operation afterwards?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson, we who were members of the South African Police Force, were not paid any benefit, only members of the askaris were.

MR HUGO: And were just following the instructions of your seniors at the time?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: And did you think that you were by partaking in this operation, that you were assisting the South African Police in their struggle against the ANC?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: You know Mr Hugo, these sorts of leading questions really have no value whatsoever, evidentiary.  You've been leading him on and on and on about this sort of detail, one would expect that you wouldn't do that, that you're going to ask him what his motive was and what his objective was, that you'd let him tell us himself.  Really, it doesn't assist him or us or his case at all when you lead him like this, because we don't know what he thinks.

MR HUGO: Yes Mr Chairman, let me rather rephrase it.
	Why did you partake in this operation, what were you trying to achieve, Mr Radebe?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I was executing orders from my seniors.

MR HUGO: Yes, but what were you trying to achieve, what was the goal of following these orders?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: So that we should not give the ANC an opportunity, that we should always be on top of it.  That is ANC and PAC.

MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Hugo.  Mr Visser, do you have any questions to put to Mr Radebe?

MR VISSER: A few, with your leave, thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Radebe, I'm not quite sure what you said, but is it - I heard you to say that three blacks from Vlakplaas arrived and a number of white persons that you can't remember how many, is that correct?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Well will it refresh your memory if I put it to you that Sgt Coetzer was one of the persons that was here in Durban at the relevant time in May 1987?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And Mr McCarter, was he here?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you say Martiens Ras was also here.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Martiens Ras gave me orders at the police station, but I did not see him at Winkelspruit.

MR VISSER: Okay.  And is it also true that Mr Baker arrived on a visit her while you were here?  Captain Baker.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I did not see him.

MR VISSER: Now I just want to make it clear, you were the most senior police office among the blacks, is that correct?  You had the highest rank among the black members.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Well which black person from Vlakplaas was in Durban, that had a higher rank than you?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Lieut Letsatsi, Lieut Mose and P J Radebe, W/O Koole.

MR LAX: You rattled off a whole lot of names very quickly, we didn't get them unfortunately, could you just repeat those names?  You said Lieut Mojaji ...

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Lieut Letsatsi.

MR LAX: L-e-t-s-a-t-s-i.  Right.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: And Lieut Mose.

MR LAX: Right.

MR VISSER: It appears to be spelt M-o-s-e.

MR LAX: Right.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: W/O Radebe.

MR VISSER: That's not you, is it?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson, it's my brother.

MR LAX: What's his first name, just so we can identify him separately from you?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Peggy Jacob Radebe.

MR LAX: Yes.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: W/O Koole.

MR LAX: Is that G-o-l-e?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Koole, K-o-o-l-e.

MR LAX: Right.

MR VISSER: It's not really important.  The point is - what I want to know is, when you were given orders to infiltrate this cell ...(end of side A of tape)
... how was the reporting to be done?  Who had to report to whom?  Start with Mr Jimmy Mbane, to whom did he have to report?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: He was reporting to me and then I would go with them and report to white members.

MR VISSER: White members from Vlakplaas, or white members from the Durban Security Branch?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Mainly we would report to members who were coming from Vlakplaas.

MR VISSER: So the procedure was that Mr Mbane, if he had something to report, he'd tell you, you would tell either Sgt Coetzer or Mr Ras, here in Durban, what you've heard, and what would they then do with that information?  Would they report it to somebody?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Yes, they would report to the senior member in Durban.

MR VISSER: Now who was that senior member in Durban, can you remember?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: If I remember well it was Hentie Botha.  Col Taylor was on leave on that particular time.

MR VISSER: Apparently - well you may be wrong you see, because Col Taylor was in fact present at the time when Ms Kubheka died at Winkelspruit.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: When the operation started, Col Taylor was on leave, he came in the picture after we have abducted this woman.  I don't dispute that fact, but when we started with this operation he was on leave, then I knew that the person who was in charge was Mr Botha.

MR VISSER: Well be that as it may, let's just talk about the day on which Kubheka was abducted and taken to Winkelspruit.  On that day, was Mr Taylor present in Durban, as far as you can remember?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I did not see him.