Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: Remembering correctly, the AK-47 I can remember,it might have been that we also had our official police firearmspresent, a 9mm pistol, I couldn't swear that but I can swear withregard to the two rifles as well as the AK-47
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but I do imagine that we might have had the other arms at thattime.

<UNKNOWN>: ...for the AK-47 to carry out the job?

ANSWER: Chair yes we could have used the AK-47 but doput yourself in our position, we are attempting to eliminate aman.   Had we shot him with the .22 then no-one would have knownfrom where we had shot because of the buffer on the firearm, wewould simply have been able to drive out calmly, like normal people,and no one would have imagined that the shot would have come fromour vehicle.   If, however, we had used the AK-47 then the policeat the airport would immediately have acted and most likely alsosome of the surrounding individuals, simply if only by runningtowards the scene and that would have made our escape possibilityso much more limited.

<UNKNOWN>: ...was a thorn in your flesh and further thatyou knew where he lived, why was it necessary for the operationto be done in Durban then?

ANSWER: The further away from one's own home this happened,the less likely it would have been for one to be caught out.  If we eliminated him right there, the investigation would havehappened right there and the possibility to link this to us inPretoria would have been less likely.

<UNKNOWN>: ...self and W/O Van Vuuren who went with youto Durban?

ANSWER: It was only myself and W/O Van Vuuren.

<UNKNOWN>: ...where is Rev Makatshwa's house?

ANSWER: At this moment unfortunately no longer, I knowhe lived in Shoshunguwe.   At that time 10 years ago, as I havealready mentioned, I visited his home on several occasions
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as well as his church, I know that he used to live next to thechurch and we visited him there.   I would have difficulty infinding, or rather would not be able to find the church again.

<UNKNOWN>: ...church premises, it's not next to the church.

ANSWER: I wouldn't be able to argue with you in thisregard, but if I remember correctly they would have been nextto each other.   If you tell me they were one building, I wouldbelieve that I wouldn't be able to argue with you in this regard.

<UNKNOWN>: You are not understanding one another, he issaying that the house is next to the church but in the same property.  There isn't two separate sites, it's a single erf with a singlesay fence around it.

ANSWER: That's exactly what I understood but I cannotremember whether there is a single fence around the two, I'm onlysaying they are next to each other, it could be like two houseswithout a fence in between.   I simply can't swear around it,it's too long ago.

<UNKNOWN>: (Not recorded).

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Chair if I remember correctly, three orfour times yes, three or four times, no less than that.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you ever find any ANC activists en routeto some place in his house?

ANSWER: No but I did find young men in his house, butnot known activists.   We once found a firearm for which he didnot have a licence but at a later stage, two or three weeks later,we received a letter that he had the weapon for safekeeping.  Then, as I have already told you, we found this literature inhis house on communist activities, terrorism, counter-intelligence.  The conclusion I made, I
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came to, together with the source reports was that Father Makatshwawas involved in general, in the general unrest in Shoshunguwe.

<UNKNOWN>: ...supplied with this information and you didnot verify the correctness thereof?

ANSWER: No Mr Chair, it has already been testified thatwe never reacted on only the information we received from onesource, we always verified the information we received throughother sources.   We also had a churches' section like the blackpower section, the C section where the much talked about "Vlakplaas"resorted under, we also had the churches' section and they broughtit to our attention that Father Makatshwa was very much involvedin especially the schools' unrest, the consumer boycotts and thegeneral unrest in Soshunguwe.

<UNKNOWN>: ...information about Rev Makatshwa's operationsthere?

ANSWER: Can I please correct you, I am only a Captainnot a Colonel, I apologise for your...we reacted to source reportsbasically.   If I had to guess I would say that the Security Branchhad approximately 500 sources in the community.   I believe thatCol Loots could verify this or could correct me, but I don't thinkthere were any fewer than 500 informants.   These informants wereinfiltrated into various areas and they were tasked to monitorhigh figures and prominent activists for us, to attend meetingsand to come as close as possible to this specific target of ours,not specifically for elimination but only for monitoring them.  To come as close as possible to the person to be able to reporthis movements to us so that we could try to take preventive actionor to plan further
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actions.

<UNKNOWN>: ...to an organisation?

ANSWER: Mr Chair yes I used to be a member of the NationalParty.   At this stage I am not a member of them anymore and Ibasically don't want to have anything to do with them.

<UNKNOWN>: ...operations were you still a member of theNational Party?

ANSWER: That's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: ...position in National Party?

ANSWER: As a member of the Security Forces it was not,we were not allowed to participate in politics actively, our participationwent as far as voting.

<UNKNOWN>: ...did you believe in the policies and theworkings of the National Party then?

ANSWER: At that stage definitely, I definitely believedin it, I grew up with it and I stood by it.   The ANC and theSACP were my enemies, Cosatu and the UDF were my enemies as welland I fought them as far as I could.

<UNKNOWN>: Were you carrying them out on behalf of theSecurity Force or on behalf of the National Party.

ANSWER: Mr Chair the Security Police were the NationalParty's iron fist who enforced its policies.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

<UNKNOWN>: You say in your statement that you did notfulfil your task because you did not trust the Commander?

ANSWER: General Smit was a new person in the branch,relatively a new person.   As in any organisation there were largerand smaller people and there were all sorts of rumours.   It waswidely known that General Smit was someone who easily steppedon those under him in order to rise in the organisation, I wasnot entirely happy at that time to
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take instructions of this nature from or to carry out such instructions,and I did not trust him sufficiently.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you know at that time that General Smitplayed a role against certain policemen who were arrested?

ANSWER: At that time, it was just after the cases ofCaptain Le Grange and I believe Sgt Van der Merwe there were rumoursat that time with regard to all sorts of underhanded ways in whichthese persons were handed over.

<UNKNOWN>: ...Rev Makatshwa that day were three events.  First lady this lady was continuously in front of him all thetime.   Then somebody lost or misplaced his parking ticket.  Then the road divided into two?

ANSWER: That's quite correct Chair, he is a lucky man.

<UNKNOWN>: He is a man of God.

ANSWER: He was a very lucky person and I don't know towhat extent it led to my battles with General Smit, a person whowas this lucky, deserves it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : ...the failure to carry out the operationto kill Father Makatshwa?

ANSWER: On my return I reported this operation to CaptLoots, what he did with this information I presume was that hereported upwards in this regard but I would not be sure what hedid with it.