Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-19

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: It was because she started to have a suspicion about safe-houses and the whereabouts of people we took, and then again we were afraid that they would suspect and then again our lives would be in danger.

MS THABETHE: You see according to ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Could I just follow up here.
	So the main reason she was brought in was to cover the tracks that you guys had created in your contact with her?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson

MR LAX: And how would the tracks be covered?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: By taking her for an interrogation, because people used to see us there.  Usually the members of the Security Branch in Durban were not able to infiltrate ANC members because they were known, and we were not known.

MR LAX: ...(indistinct) how you were known.  How would you erase your tracks?  You certainly wouldn't erase them by interrogating anybody, that doesn't erase your tracks, does it, it simply provides information.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: At times it happens that a person would be recruited to work with us, then that's how we would erase our trails.

MR LAX: And if the person didn't want to be recruited, how would you then erase the trail?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Usually he would be taken to court and be sentenced.

MR LAX: Or alternatively, killed?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Correct, Chairperson, as it has happened with Ms Kubheka and others.

MR LAX: So you would simply eliminate those persons?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR LAX: Carry on, Ms Thabethe, sorry.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Lax.
	You see Mr Radebe, Mr Botha gave evidence that there wasn't an order to abduct Ntombi Kubheka, initially, but the order was that Mbane would make an arrangement with her, pick her up and she would take him to the terrorists and those terrorists were the ones that you had to bring to Mr Botha.  That's on page 1717 of the transcript.  What would be your response to that version that  was given by Mr Botha?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Ms Kubheka wanted to see the safe-house and in that safe-house were the terrorists.

MS THABETHE: I don't know whether you understand my question.  My question is, Mr Botha said the instruction was not to abduct Ms Ntombi Kubheka, the instruction was that Ntombi Kubheka would take you to the terrorists and these terrorists were the ones that had to be brought to Mr Botha and his team, not Ntombi Kubheka.  Would you say that's true?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is not true.

MS THABETHE: I just want to find out how long before Ntombi Kubheka was arrested were these instructions were given to you, that you should bring her to the white members.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I don't remember.

MS THABETHE: Was it ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give some idea?  I don't want the exact time period, was it the same day, was it an hour before, was it a few minutes before?  Give us some idea of the time span.  From the time that you say Mr Coetzer said that you must go and fetch Ms Kubheka, until the time that - what time, till the time that they picked her up at the station or at the Kentucky.  Ms Thabethe, is that what you want to know?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Yes.  Thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the time span between receiving that instruction and actually picking her up wherever you did?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: The following day, Chairperson.

MR LAX: So you got the order on one day and then the next day you picked her up?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Jimmy phoned her, then we made an appointment through the phone that we'd meet on a particular day on the particular time and place the following day.

MS THABETHE: It's because on page 1718 of the transcript, Mr Samuel says his instructions are that Mr Botha had given instructions to you on the morning in question.  Would you say that's correct?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No.

MS THABETHE: Will it be correct to say you were the leader of the black team in this operation?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Okay.  I didn't quite follow your evidence-in-chief, you say you met with Ms Kubheka either at Kentucky or the Durban station, you don't remember, and then what happened thereafter?  Do you remember taking her to Battery Beach where she was abducted?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I remember that I took her either from Kentucky or the Station, I don't remember as to whether I took her anywhere near the sea.  I don't remember.  That is at the point where she was handed over to white members.

MS THABETHE: Was Dube with you?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: And was Mbane with you as well?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Yes, if I remember well, he was present.

MS THABETHE: Okay.  Do you remember seeing Ms Kubheka at Winkelspruit?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: No, Chairperson.

MS THABETHE: You never saw her there?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Yes, I did not.

MS THABETHE: So are you saying or are you implying that from the time she was abducted, to the time she was brought to Winkelspruit, you don't remember what happened, whether you were there or you were not there?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I was not among the group which interrogated her.

MR LAX: But sorry, didn't you see her arrive there?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I did not, Chairperson.

MR LAX: If I remember correctly, in your evidence-in-chief you said you got to Winkelspruit, you saw that they arrived with her.

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I did not say that, Chairperson, I said they went with her and then they arrived earlier than us.

MR LAX: ...(indistinct) the vehicles that were already there.  It's fine.  I was careful to say, if I remember correctly, I might well be wrong.  It's not a problem.  But you never saw her again ever?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Not at all, Chairperson.

MS THABETHE: When you arrived at Winkelspruit, who were you driving with in the car?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: The person I remember is Dube, but I don't remember well, and it seems Jimmy was there, but I'm not sure about that one.

MS THABETHE: If you didn't see Ms Kubheka at Winkelspruit, when did you hear about the fact that she had died, if at all you did hear that she had died?

CHAIRPERSON: He's obviously heard it.
	When did you first hear that the deceased died, Ms Kubheka died?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: I learnt that from Jimmy, that she had a heart attack.

CHAIRPERSON: The questions was, when did you learn that?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: After some time.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you give us some idea of that time span, was it a few days or a few hours or the same day, the next day?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Some hours, Chairperson, but I do not remember the exact duration, but it's not after a long time.

MR LAX: Is that the same time he told you that he saw Miyeza there?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Yes, Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Do you perhaps remember where you were when you heard this?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: We were in the kombi, but I don't remember well as to whether our car was parked or we were on our way to CR Swart Police Station, or where.

ADV BOSMAN: But according to your recollection, was it before you returned to CR Swart, before you arrived at CR Swart?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS THABETHE: Mr Radebe, are you suggesting that - let's say you were on your way to CR Swart, Jimmy was with you when he told you?  Are you suggesting that you drove from Winkelspruit to CR Swart with Jimmy?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: Yes, Chairperson, we did not have toiletries with us and then our clothes were at CR Swart.  If I remember well.

MS THABETHE: My question is, does this include Jimmy as well?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: That is correct.

MR LAX: Can I just ask something in that regard, was this later the next day?

SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: If I remember well, Chairperson, it's after hours.  It's within hours, or maybe the following day in the morning, I don't remember.