Amnesty Hearings — Benoni — 1998-09-07

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: As I'm saying that you could recognise the enemy presence.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You could?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: I'm saying that you could recognise the enemy presence by the virtue of, they are utilising their state vehicles, meaning that they could be around there or waiting outside.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you able to identify any vehicles belonging to the state at that time?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Yes, because I have been carrying reconnaissance against the enemy forces.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So from your prognosis, you then concluded that there should be the presence of the enemy inside Wimpy?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: If they were not inside, it simply means that they were on stand-by to attend a meeting,  Outside, they may be outside or whatever, corner.

SISI KHAMPEPE: They would be outside until about 12 o'clock, because your reconnaissance had actually elicited information that the meeting at about 12 o'clock, that's your evidence?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And they would be standing outside from about 10 o'clock until 12 o'clock?  Could that have been probable?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: I'm not so sure about that because when I'm saying that - let's say somebody is attending a meeting, he can decide to stand outside.  Let's say like he will be taking a cigarette and smoke for a while ...[indistinct] to a meeting or he is still busy with somebody.

SISI KHAMPEPE: With regard to the Lindela Hostel attack, how many people did you actually shoot?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually you couldn't went back to the enemy forces and ask them that: "How many people have been attacked"?, but what has been happening is that you have been reading reports from media, especially from Citizen or whatever newspaper, if I remember very well.

SISI KHAMPEPE: From which position did you shoot at these people?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually would you clarify your question?

SISI KHAMPEPE: If you are unable to know how many people you shot at - did you shoot at a police vehicle with the "Kitskonstabels" inside the car or what happened?  How did the ambush take place?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: We shot them while they were inside the thing, inside the truck.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Inside the truck?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Mm.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you, no further questions.

ADV MOTATA: Just two Chairperson.
	Just returning to the Wimpy Bar incident.  Other than the state vehicles, did you know any Security Branch policemen?  Other than the vehicles you saw parked there and the assumption that it belonged to them, they might be in Wimpy Bar, did you know any?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually their appearance you could see that this guy he belongs to the state.

ADV MOTATA: Wimpy Bar had the hall, restaurant itself for eating inside and there were people who could also dine outside, would I be right?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: If I could remember well, I'm not so sure about dining outside.

ADV MOTATA: In fairness to you, we have several statements that say some would dine outside.

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: I can't remember that because it is an old incident, I cannot remember everything.

ADV MOTATA: Now let's return to your bundle, your application itself, page 32, paginated.  In response to a question asked there you said
"It was in line with the ANC policy to conduct such an act"
And if we look at your application you are talking about the "Kitskonstabels", you are talking about Wimpy Bar, why now singular it?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Will you repeat?

ADV MOTATA: If you say
"in line with the ANC policy"
then you say:  
"policy to conduct such an act",
you are not speaking of acts and you are making application for several acts.

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: What I can say, especially when it comes to the position of ANC policy, yes, it's being a policy to attack an enemy forces but not to attack civilians.

ADV MOTATA: No, no, I think we are at cross-purposes here.  I say my reading, correct me if I'm wrong, I say reading this submission you are making, you say
"such an act"
and when we listen to your evidence, you are applying for several acts or attack acts, if I may put it that way.

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: I think it was a mistake and you have to understand that English is not my mother tongue.

ADV MOTATA: And you say
"The order by Chris Hani at Zimbabwe"
Did Hani give you any orders whilst he was at the HMQ?

ALFAS MABORE NDLOVU: Actually the orders that we have been given, we've been given the order during the time when we were stationed at Zimbabwe.  And now it is being ordered that we should escalate assaults and intensify attacks against enemy forces and we have to take the struggle into the white areas.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: You're excused.

MR NLDOVU: Okay, thanks.
WITNESS EXCUSED