Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-19

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Chairman, there's finally just one other witness I wish to call, that is Mr S J Hugo.  He was the investigating officer who investigated all the crimes against the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo, what are your full names please?

STEFANUS JOHANNES HUGO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Loubscher?

MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Hugo, you are a superintendent in the South African Police Force, stationed in organised crime in Welkom?

STEFANUS JOHANNES HUGO: That is correct.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

MR LOUBSCHER: You were also the investigating officer in the case against the four applicants where they were charged with several offences as we find it in the indictment and as it appears from page 63 up until 84 of the bundle?

STEFANUS JOHANNES HUGO: That is correct, yes.

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Hugo, these charges, did you investigate them thoroughly?

STEFANUS JOHANNES HUGO: Yes, I did.

MR LOUBSCHER: Did you at any stage receive any indication in your investigation that these acts were committed as a result of anything other than political motive?

STEFANUS JOHANNES HUGO: They were definitely politically motivated.

MR LOUBSCHER: You found no indications of any other motives?

STEFANUS JOHANNES HUGO: No, I did not.

MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Taka, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR TAKA: Just a few, Mr  Chairman.
	Mr Hugo, why do you say that all these acts under all ...(indistinct) charges were politically motivated?

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question was: why do you say that?

STEFANUS JOHANNES HUGO: Chairperson, right from the start of the investigation it was quite evident that it was an onslaught from the right side against the government and the parties who were then involved in the elections, and the trace was right from the start and it pointed to the fact that it was right-wing people who were involved in this.  At the end of the day once we'd arrested the people, we had positive evidence that it was the AWB and the Volksfront who were behind this whole thing.

MR TAKA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TAKA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Hugo, are you conversant with the classification of political motivation as it in the Act under which the Amnesty Committee operates?

CHAIRPERSON: That is the Act 34 of 1995, the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act.  They define, well don't actually define but it's mentioned what a political objective is as contemplated by that particular Act, the TRC Act.

STEFANUS JOHANNES HUGO: Chairperson, I do not know so much about the Reconciliation Act which was mentioned but as far as my investigation was concerned it was evident to me that it was politically motives which were behind these crimes.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any re-examination, Mr Loubscher?

MR LOUBSCHER: No re-examination, Chairperson, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions?

DR TSOTSI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Just one, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Hugo, are you a member or supporter of any political party?

STEFANUS JOHANNES HUGO: No, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I take it there are no questions arising from that?

MR LOUBSCHER: None, Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Superintendent, that concludes your evidence, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR LOUBSCHER: That then Mr Chairman, is the applications for the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Taka?

MR TAKA: Thank you, Chairperson, I do not intend calling any witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, there is no further evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Loubscher, are you ready to address us?

MR LOUBSCHER: We're ready to proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to make the submissions now?  Whenever you're ready, Mr Loubscher.

MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, you are well conversant with the requirements for amnesty as set out in Section 20(1).  We submit that the requirements of the Act were satisfied.  We will come back to the requirement that the act should be associated with political motives.  We submit that a full disclosure of all the relevant facts were in fact made. 
	Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, when one has regard to Section 20, we submit that all four the applicants in fact fall within the ambit of Section 22(a).  In other words, any member -: 
"Acts committed by any member or supporter of a publicly known political organisation or liberation movement on behalf of or in support of such organisation of movement bona fide in the furtherance of the political struggle waged by such an organisation or movement against the State or any former State or another publicly known political organisation or liberation movement."
In other words, the requirement as set out in (b) (c) (d) and (f) of that sub-section really falls away in the sense, Mr Taka made mention of authority and orders, that really falls away.  If one has regard to Section 2(a) we submit that it is clear that where the - I can divide them actually in two groups there.  You have Mr Kriel who gave the initial order and you have the other three who actually executed the order with their own commander in the structure.  But it's, we submit, clear from their evidence, and it's nothing to gainsay that, that they acted on behalf of or in support of the Volksfront and to a lessor degree their evidence is also that the AWB in the person of Terre'blanche at the very least condoned the activities of this terror group, it I may call them that.

CHAIRPERSON: At that time and from the evidence of Mr Kriel it would seem, and just correct me if I'm wrong, that the incidents or the operations whatever you want to call them, were carried out in furtherance of as you've said, primarily the Volksfront at that stage, of which the AWB was itself and its members, affiliated to.

MR LOUBSCHER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And I think that is evidenced by Mr Labuschagne's evidence, that even when he deemed himself no longer to be a member of the AWB he still continued with the campaign but under the banner of the Volksfront?

MR LOUBSCHER: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So it's essentially Volksfront ...

MR LOUBSCHER: It's essentially Volksfront and more in particular the aim was the recognition of the so-called Volkstaat.  ...(indistinct) is not a correct translation but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the ultimate aim was - I think that's now a South African word, the Volkstaat.  You don't have to really translate it, it's like biltong.