Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-26

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson.  The next applicant is Richard Dlamini, number 15 on the list.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlamini, what language are you going to speak?  Will you please give us your full names.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You are required to raise your voice a little bit because you are not talking to me alone, you are talking to everyone in this room.  You've talk and speak in such a way that even a person who is at the back there can hear you, do you understand?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson.
	I want you to identify your signature on the Form 1 amnesty application, on page 213.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, that is my signature.

MR STRYDOM: This document has been shown to you and you've indicated to me there is one mistake on this document and that in paragraph 11(b), is that correct?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: When was the first time for you to become aware that there was an attack to be launched on Boipatong?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: On the 17th.

MR STRYDOM: Prior to the 17th of June 1992, did you attend any meeting where anything in regard to a possible attack on Boipatong was discussed?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I was never present in such a meeting.

MR STRYDOM: Now to the extent that there's a reference to a meeting on the 10th when an order was given, is that what is not in order in that paragraph?

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat the question?

MR STRYDOM: To the extent that there is a reference to the 10th of June when an order was given, is that the wrong part of that paragraph?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, that is a mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon, what is a mistake?

MR STRYDOM: The reference to the 10th.  The witness said the first time he became aware of the attack was on the 17th.  The witness said  that the first time he became aware of the attack was on the 17th and he did not go to any meeting on the 10th.
	I also want to show you the answer to paragraph 10(a) ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please move closer to the mike, thank you.

MR STRYDOM: I also want to show you the answer to paragraph 10(a), given in a separate annexure on page 214.  Now the answer has been translated to you on a previous occasion, do you agree with the contents of that paragraph?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I agree.

MR STRYDOM: Can you in your own words say why did you go to Boipatong and form part of the attack on Boipatong?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: When I went to Boipatong, the intention was to face the comrades.  We wanted to drive them away, the comrades who were guarding the place.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you want to chase the comrades away?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: We were unable to do anything in the township.  Even our relatives who were residing there in the townships were harassed.

MR STRYDOM: Then I want to show you the request for further particulars on page 216 and your answers on page 218.  These questions and answers were translated to you, do you stand by the answers?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I agree with them.

MR STRYDOM: And then I want to refer you to your affidavit, and I will start with your signature on page 223.  Is that your signature?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, that's my signature

MR STRYDOM: Do you agree with the contents of that affidavit?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I agree with the contents.

MR STRYDOM: Can you just briefly state what you did in Boipatong during the night of the attack.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: On that night my job was to stab the people there, these comrades.  That was my job.

MR STRYDOM: After you have entered Boipatong, did the comrades run away?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, they ran away.

MR STRYDOM: Where did they run to?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: They were scattered all over the township and we kept on chasing them.

MR STRYDOM: Did you go into houses?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, we went into the houses.

MR STRYDOM: Did you stab people in houses?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, some of the comrades were in the shack.  We stabbed them.  Themba shot some of them.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from comrades which one would expect to be relatively young male people, did you attack any other residents of Boipatong?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, there was another man that I attacked.

MR STRYDOM: Approximately how many people did you stab during the attack?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: About four of them.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know if the people that you stabbed died?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I am not certain whether they died or not but I wanted to make sure that if I stab a person he or she would just die.

MR STRYDOM: Did you hear any shots being fired in Boipatong?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I did.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see anyone of the attackers specifically shoot any person?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I saw a person from the group of people that I was with.

MR STRYDOM: Who did you see shooting?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: The first person to shoot at a comrade was Damani, the second one was Themba Mabote who was shooting in the shack.

MR STRYDOM: In your affidavit you make mention about another person in the hostel names Keswa, who is that person?

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, Mr Strydom, I didn't get the interpretation correctly, did he say he shot in a shack or in a house?  Because I heard him say ...(Zulu).

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: It was in the shack, the shack was in the yard.

MR STRYDOM: The next question was the reference there on page 222 of your affidavit, and I'm going to translate
"I was informed by other residents in the hostel ..."
the name there is:
"... Keswa, to go and fetch a weapon."
This person, Keswa, what are his full names?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: I don't know his full names, I only know him as Xhoslele Zingene.

MR STRYDOM: Is that Victor Keswa or not?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Will the speaker please repeat the question?

MR STRYDOM: Is that Victor Keswa, also known as Getisi?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, that is not the one.  That one is an old man, the one that you are talking about.

MR STRYDOM: After the attack in the hostel on the following day, were you also responsible to burn some of the goods that was taken from Boipatong?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I was.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember who gave you the order to do that or was it out of your own initiative?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I can still remember.

MR STRYDOM: Who told you?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Damarra came to my house and I was asleep, he woke me up.

MR STRYDOM: So approximately what time would you say did you start burning goods?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Though I cannot remember the time, I think it was round about eight, between eight and nine.

MR STRYDOM: In the morning?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, in the morning.

MR STRYDOM: During the attack, did you see any police or military vehicles in Boipatong?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, I saw no cars or police.

MR STRYDOM: As far as your knowledge goes, did the police or the Defence Force assist before or during the attack?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No, I know nothing about the assistance before the attack.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see any police or military vehicles after the attack?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No.

MR STRYDOM: Before the attack, did you attend any meeting where Mr Themba Khosa said anything about the possibility of an attack on any township in the Vaal Triangle?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: No,  I was never present in such a meeting.

MR STRYDOM: After the attack, did you see Mr Themba Khosa and Humphrey Ndlovu at the hostel?

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: Yes, I saw him.