Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-13

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I want to clarify it again.  When we arrived with Tax, he was not taken immediately to that particular room, I took him to a separate room whilst there was a discussion with Betty and Nomasonto.  After that, then Tax was allowed to go to that particular room.

MR VISSER: To the other room?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Sorry, can I just - I'm not following this at all.  Can we just try and clarify this.  You arrive at the farm with Tax, all four of you are in the car, plus Tax.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And you say you then guard Tax in a different room while somebody else is talking to Betty Boom and Nomasonto, is that right?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: At the time when we arrived at the farm, Tax was not allowed to meet with Betty and Nomasonto.  At that time, on our arrival, he was taken to a separate room whilst Mr Robertshaw and Jantjie were having a discussion with Nomasonto and Betty Boom.  After a certain duration, then they came to request that Tax should be taken to that room where Betty and Nomasonto were.

MR LAX: And then did a further discussion take place between all of them?  Or don't you know?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I believed that there was a discussion after Tax was taken to that particular room.

MR LAX: And thereafter?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: After that I did not have a contact with these three people, I did not know the finality of the whole incident.

MR LAX: So did you never see them again after that?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I did not know what happened thereafter, Chairperson, I did not see them again.

MR VISSER: Did anybody explain to you why all these persons were being brought to the farm and what had happened?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I did not receive any information in that regard.

MR VISSER: You stated in paragraph 19, from page 29D, that you are aware that Tax agreed to become an informer along with the other two persons.  How did you become aware of that?  Do you know this from within your own personal knowledge or is it something that somebody told you?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I was given that information by Mr Jantjie.

MR VISSER: Do you know what subsequently happened to these three persons, do you know whether they were taken anywhere?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, Mr Michael Jantjie informed me that those people were returned to Lesotho.

MR VISSER: But you have no personal knowledge of this?  You didn't see it and you weren't present either, is that correct?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, that is correct.

MR VISSER: In conclusion, can we come to Mr Ngono.  What was your involvement with Mr Ngono?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: My role, Chairperson, in regard to Mr Mbulelo Ngono was that we were called to a meeting, the four of us, that is myself, Jantjie, Jagga and Mr Robertshaw, where there was a discussion that there is Mr KK at a place called Roma, then thereafter ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Just before you continue, what did this discussion involve, what did they say about KK?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: In that discussion they explained that Mr KK is one of the MK members who were operating from Lesotho, then there was a desire that if we can find KK, he should be recruited to be our informer.

MR VISSER: And was any later instruction issued in this regard?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Who issued the instruction?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Mr Robertshaw gave me those instructions.

MR VISSER: What did he say, what were you supposed to do?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I recall his words, he said we should leave and try to recruit KK to be our informer.

MR VISSER: In Lesotho, or at another place?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Inside Lesotho, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Very well.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: If there are problems we would encounter, therefore we should abduct him and bring him to South Africa.

MR VISSER: So Robertshaw told you two things, is that correct?  Firstly, you had to try to recruit him in Lesotho and if you did not succeed you should attempt to abduct him to South Africa.  Is that your recollection?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Who indeed then went to Roma?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I left with Mr Jantjie to Roma.

MR VISSER: What vehicle did you use?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is a Toyota kombi.

MR VISSER: Very well.  And once you arrived in Lesotho, what happened then?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: When we arrived in Lesotho we went to a particular house which we were told Mr KK was residing at, then when we arrived we did not find him there and we learnt from somebody that he's at his girlfriend's place, then - before we arrived there at KK's girlfriend, I had a discussion with Mr Jantjie in the language we used to use, we would be taking a chance if we, because we are not sure how dangerous he is, therefore we took a decision that we should go and request an assistance from the Lesotho police.  Then we went there to request for assistance.

MR VISSER: At which police station?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: We went to Roma Police Station.

MR VISSER: And did you find any Lesotho police present there?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, that is correct, we found police members there.

MR VISSER: And what took place at the police station?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: We explained our mission, that we're looking for Mr KK.  I wanted to explain earlier that we did not have a problem with the Lesotho police, in many instances if we had a problem, then we go to them, they would assist us.  We went there to them and requested that assistance to help us in the abduction or arrest of Mr KK.  They did.

MR VISSER: Therefore what you mean is that it was not out of the ordinary for them to assist you in arresting KK?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Yes, Chairperson, we went there to ask for that kind of assistance.

MR VISSER: And was any of the Lesotho police force with you?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: A few minutes ago you stated that you went to request them to assist you with the arrest or the abduction of KK, what I want to put to you is, did you or Jantjie or both of you together tell the Lesotho police that it was your intention to abduct KK and bring him to South Africa?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, I don't want to commit myself that we used those words, but in the discussion of Mr Jantjie and the Lesotho police, something in that regard could have been said.  I don't remember directly that those words were used.

MR VISSER: Was it the idea that once KK had been arrested, the Lesotho police would then deliver him to you?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I believed so, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: However, you stated that you were not certain whether or not they knew that it was your intention or your objective to abduct him and bring him to South Africa, is that what you're trying to say?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Chairperson, maybe I did not clarify this point.  I don't believe that Mr Jantjie told the Lesotho police that we were coming to abduct Mr KK ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He says you were present when Mr Jantjie went to the Roma police.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You went there to request for an assistance to get KK.

DAELE DANIEL THULO: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: When Mr Jantjie was having a discussion with the Lesotho police, where were you?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: I was inside the car.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words, he entered alone in the police station?

DAELE DANIEL THULO: Yes that is correct, Chairperson, he entered the police station alone, but I had a knowledge of the content of the discussions he would have with the Lesotho police and I knew what kind of a request he would put to them.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say you knew, how did you know what he would say to the Lesotho police?