Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-21

MR TERREBLANCHE: Can we then say that you were very angry at the President and that you did not like any of his decisions?  Can we accept it, you were very angry at him?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, Sir.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Mr Menyatsoe, you were very angry at the President and you knew that the AWB had come because someone had told you or that the whites are sleeping there at the defence force base and they are entertained there.  You knew they were there.  Someone said to you that they took over the whole thing.  Is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: What is the question in fact here?  Is this a phrase or a question?

MR TERREBLANCHE: Mr Menyatsoe, I asked you a simple question.  You knew that the AWB is at the defence force headquarters.  Did you know this?  Yes or no?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes I was aware.

MR TERREBLANCHE: You knew that if the AWB was not welcome there then there would have been war between Mangope's forces, Mangope himself as President and the AWB, because the AWB comes from another country and they have come into your country and they are staying at the defence force headquarters and there is no shots being fired.  In other words you knew that Mr Mangope had no objection in them being there.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I did not know as to whether he was anti or for them, but what I just heard is that the AWB soldiers were in the defence headquarters.  As to whether he called them or not, Mr Mangope, I did not know.  What I know is that yourself and your army were in the air base.  That is all I know.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Mr Menyatsoe, now I understand.  It is not the AWB who angered you, that you would leave your post and walk across the road and go to the ANC people.  It was not the AWB people because you did not know or knew that Mangope wanted us there.  You were just angry at Mangope.  You were so angry that you lifted your rifle in the air and shouted with the others.  Is that correct?  It was not the AWB.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Please repeat your question.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Your answer that you did not know if the AWB was welcome there or not, this is now at the defence force base.  Is that correct?  Is that what you said?  Now I am asking you, I was under the impression that you were so angry at the AWB because they were helping Mangope who did not want the people to vote and now you are saying, no.  It is not why you were angry or you said you did not understand.  Can you just explain this to me.  Why did you walk over to the ANC people, the people who broke the windows and sang and shouted?  Is it not in these documents that you went over to the people across the road?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Still I am waiting the question about the air base and now you already into the TTA.  You are actually confusing me.

MR TERREBLANCHE: I think, Mr Menyatsoe, we made it very clear.  I will not continue with this question.  I want to know that it was your task to protect the government.  Is that correct, you have said that earlier on.  Did you then protect the government?  Or did you kill people who were killing your people?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Please be aware of the fact that Mr Mangope is not the government himself only.  Government is formed by the nation as well.  When I say that I was protecting or defending Mr Mangope, does not necessarily mean I have to neglect the nation.  He was not the sole government, Mr Mangope.  You as well, Mr Terreblanche, you cannot operate on your own, that is why you have got your supporters or your assistants there next to you.  I also had to serve the nation.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Mr Menyatsoe, I'm asking you just to answer what I am putting to you.  I will repeat it.  Did you serve the nation and the government when you shot and killed the people who were injured and was lying there without any weapons?   Was that part of your instructions?  Did you do it because you wanted to serve the government and the nation at the same time?  You were a police officer, did you resign before you killed them or were you at that stage a policeman?  I will start again, did you serve the nation and the government when you killed those people?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I did that for the nation and for the government and the nation that was being killed by your army at that time.  That is why I say I was protecting the very nation that we are following of Bophuthatswana.  I was trying to stop your army from the continuous killings that were going on.  That is why immediately thereafter the incident of your three soldiers when I actually killed them and thereafter the shootings in Mmabatho actually minimised.  I think you do agree with me that after this incident there were few killings here in Mafikeng.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Can you just answer my question.  I am not here to listen to a political summary of your opinions, I just want the answer to my question.  This is about the cold-blooded murder of people.  It is about your application for amnesty.  The panel have to decide if you will receive amnesty and will walk out here as a free person or if this deed stands directly opposed to the rights of humans and if it is against conventions decided on an international level.  Can you just answer my question please.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I am sorry to interrupt.  I don't want to interrupt cross-examination of Mr Terreblanche.  I ask that Mr Terreblanche must ask his questions in short, simple sentences so that the applicant can understand what the question actually is and not give a whole speech before asking a question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think if he could keep the questions as short as possible please Mr Terreblanche, to avoid any confusion that may result from long questions.
	The question that was asked you was, were you protecting the nation, the government and the nation when you shot those three people.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: According to my discretion I was protecting the nation.

MR TERREBLANCHE: I will ask you a very short question and you have got a lot of time to answer this.  Mr Chairperson, I am objecting, I am trying to keep to the questions, I am not making speeches, so I think that this objection is not relevant.
	I am now asking you a question Mr Menyatsoe.  How do you protect the government of President Mangope?  The whole government who did not want to take part in voting by killing Fourie, Uys and Wolfaardt, who did not have any weapons and who were pleading for medical aid?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Mr Terreblanche, please be precise.  I don't understand your question.

MR TERREBLANCHE: I am convinced that you do not want to answer this question but I will try.  Were you afraid of one person who was apparently almost dead, and one who was severely injured and pleading for an ambulance and another person?  Were you afraid you afraid that they will jump up and here I will have to elaborate because otherwise you do not understand again.
	That they will jump up with weapons they did not have, and that President Mangope, and they are threatening President Mangope's safety and that they will kill the people standing around them.  That they will threaten their safety.  The AWB left, they gone.  How do you protect the government and the people by killing people who had nothing with them?  How can you protect them if you do that?  I hope you understand now.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I do understand your question, Mr Terreblanche.  I did not say that these people were not armed.  I killed your soldiers because of the war that they had brought into this area.  I shot them because I knew that they were armed.