Human Rights Violation Hearings — Messina — 1997-04-08

MATHIYA JAMES THELELE: I didn't have transport to carry those .....

DR RANDERA: belongings.

MATHIYA JAMES THELELE: ...and when I get those transport, I was, I was no money and anything.  Those furnitures, they used to broke .....(indistinct).... it's only three days borne and they said I mustn't be sleeping right in location but I ask him what, what a ...(indistinct)  They said you are not allowed to stay in Messina, be, but I wa, myself, I'm a bona-fide from Messina.

DR RANDERA: Did he every give you a reason ...(intervention)

MATHIYA JAMES THELELE: ......(indistinct)........       They said you must left Messina.

DR RANDERA: Are your children all all right?
Thank you.  My last question is ... (intervention)

MATHIYA JAMES THELELE: I'm asking the court, why, what had been done for that (...intervention)

DR RANDERA: My last question is, when did you return to Nancefield?   Are you living in Nancefield now?

MATHIYA JAMES THELELE: I came back to Nancefield in 1976.  That was in September.  When I came in September I went to see Klopper and he said, am I back from Egypt and I said no, I'm not back from Egypt and I was a bona-fide of Nancefield.  And he said to me, I should be a lodger and I asked him, how could I be a lodger if  I owned a four roomed house.   And I stopped questioning him because I was afraid that he, the man was going to evict me again.  But I ask the Truth Commission, what have been done .. (intervention)

DR RANDERA: Sorry, are you, are you saying that you did not get your house back, somebody else is staying in your house.

MATHIYA JAMES THELELE: Eh, somebody is staying there but I don't, ja he's staying there but I doesn't like it any more.  Myself, I doesn't like to go back there.  I doesn't like, because there are snake biters there near to me there.

DR RANDERA: Sorry, can I please ask the audience to, to respect what's being said here and I understand that it may appear to be extremely funny but it's not the point of, of telling the story.

MATHIYA JAMES THELELE: Even to, even to-day, I'm prayed for Lords.  There are too many people in locations.  They're still crying for their house.  For that Klopper who've been to, taking those house and give it to somebody.  How  these come because they are bona-fides from that house.  To-day  they are suffering, because it, maybe it was under Bantu administration.  I'm asking that.

DR RANDERA: Is Mr Kloppers still around in, in Messina?

MATHIYA JAMES THELELE: Ja, he's still here in Messina.  He's still here. And these people they used to, to ask, where, where is our house?  Others, others they've been deposit, others they are dead and never to, to go forwards to say where it's our house, where is our  things?  Because they're still under with that instruction of ou Kloppers and there is,is still the Chief in the under location.  Even myself, I'm here.  He can run up to shoot me when I'm going outside.

DR RANDERA: Mr Manthata earlier on said that when he was, when a similar ....  (..intervention).. sorry, let me finish.  What he said earlier on was that Mr Klopper also asked him to leave Nancefield but accused him of being a Communist.  Where you also being, where you also accused of being a Communist?

MATHIYA JAMES THELELE: Me, I was, I was Cabinet with Manthata, with Manthata and when the time he chased me, Manthata he said you can rather do me anythings, because I'm a bona-fide from location.

DR RANDERA: Thank you Mr Thelele, I have no further questions.  Mr Manthata!

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thanks.

MATHIYA JAMES THELELE: Thanks, I'm a pain Mr Manthata, because we were only two.  The others there was they hate us.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thelele.

MATHIYA JAMES THELELE: Thanks.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you, Mr Thelele.  Thelele what you're telling us is what do no longer exist, what you were trying to tell us to-day.   The pain which you went through during those evictions and during the times where you used to lived, live by permits was something which to-day when we are talking of human rights, is, we are talking about.  Some of us, when we grew up, those things were outdated and it could, it could be a joke to us like some of us are doing now.  My question is that, while you were a member of the Advisory Board at the time, were you able to monitor how many people were being evicted from their houses?  And when those people were trying to, to complain, what help did you give them?  As the Advisory Board, if  someone was complaining, they used to come to us and we used to solve, try to solve their problems without going to the Magistrate's Court or to be sent to, to prison, especially the young ladies were being very much protected and they used to come to us and complain about impregnated by young men and we used to tell them that, in Messina as people, most guys were unemployed during those times.  We used to advise them to sit down and discuss issues but the Advisory Board and that boer, they didn't want to see young guys around Messina.  I swear, this Patrick Mpepu and Sal, Sedrick Patrudi, I talked to them and  discussed these things with them, about what was happening around here.  Can I ask you again.  Those people who evicted, was it young guys who were single or bachelors and young ladies, old  spinsters?  As you were trying to explain to us that there were also older women who were evicted from houses.  I actually want to understand who were being evicted from houses because they didn't have permit.

MATHIYA JAMES THELELE: They didn't choose, they used to come at random during the night and chase everyone.  You just hear that people were being taken away during the night by the police.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Are you saying people were being evicted because they were making noise during the night?

MATHIYA JAMES THELELE: No, what I'm saying is that the, the, the big vans who used to come and make noise during the night and take people away, everyone and we used to cry and, and be in trouble.  Even older women were taken away if they're visiting, coming to see their, their grandchildren and when we tried to help, especially me, they would not listen especially maybe because they used to say, I'm I'm, I'm younger and Mr Manthata used to, to support me.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Can you clarify this?  My main question is that, were you able to answer and solve the problems of your community because they didn't have permits and because of those evictions.  Were you able to solve those problems?

MATHIYA JAMES THELELE: Yes, we were able to solve them.

THOMAS MANTHATA: That's why my problem, my question is, how did you used to solve those problems.

MATHIYA JAMES THELELE: We used to call their parents, their fathers and mothers to sit down with them and discuss those problems and not to run and go to the White person.  And the police used to be against us and used to say to us we were just wasting time and we were powerless as a result.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I think I do not understand you clearly, Mr Thelele, because when I'm saying, when a person used to be evicted from a house, you can only satisfy that person by giving that person another house.  That's why I'm asking you, at the time when you were a member of the Advisory Board, if a person was evicted from a house.  A woman being evicted because she's single, an older woman be, evicted because she's a widower.  That's what my question is based upon.  That how did you solve these problems as an Advisory Board?

MATHIYA JAMES THELELE: As an Advisory Board we used to sit down, call the parents and everyone, the community do discuss the issues so that we could satisfy peoples and not take the matters to the courts.