Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-20

ADV MEMANI: Would you have accompanied him on that occasion?

UNKNOWN: I don't know that.  I even don't know Lieutenant Niewoudt he is talking about.

ADV DE JAGER: On the same page, the next column 07h00 to SA Police Kompol with Constable Hendrik Bokaba for place location.

ADV MEMANI: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Now, there is an entry again on 14 April 1988, which says to SA Police Kompol with Constable Hendrik Bokaba for place location.  Now my instructions are that place location is a form of orientation whereby a recruit is taken to various places to familiarise himself with the operations of the Branch and the area in which he is going to work?

UNKNOWN: I don't agree with that.

ADV MEMANI: What would this have meant?

UNKNOWN: This entry which appears here, I don't agree with it.  What I know, I did explain before, when I gave evidence that I took Ngo once to Kompol building when he went for an interview to Captain Loots, that is what I know, that is why I say I don't agree with this version.

ADV MEMANI: This pocket book was written almost ten years ago, before Ngo knew that he would apply for amnesty one day.

UNKNOWN: I agree with you that it was written in 1988.

ADV MEMANI: And he did not have any reason to make a false entry about you accompanying him for place location?

UNKNOWN: I am surprised why he made that entry that he went with me for place location.  I am surprised why he made this entry and included my name that he went to do place location, because I was not working with him, and what I know is that I only took him to Captain Loots once and then thereafter I didn't associate with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree that place location is what counsel suggested to you?

UNKNOWN: I don't agree with him.

ADV MEMANI: What is place location according to your version?

UNKNOWN: I am surprised, I don't even know that, I don't understand that.  As to whether it is an orientation for new recruits in the Security Branch, I don't agree with that.  I don't understand the meaning of place location.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairperson, those are my questions.  I am indebted to the Committee.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I don't understand why you would dispute the definition of place location suggested to you, if you don't know what it means?

UNKNOWN: The way I understand him, is that it is an orientation course, the way Mr Memani explains it that a newly recruit to the Security Branch, should undergo that orientation.  That is, this term I learn it for the first time today.
	At Security Branch, there is nothing called, the orientation is never called place location, that is why I dispute that.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I would have thought that you would have said well, I don't know what it means, but if some people say that is what it means, then I don't know.

UNKNOWN: I wanted to explain that I don't know it.

MR DU PLESSIS: My Lord, may I enquire if I understood it correctly?  Did my learned friend put to the witness that Mr Ngo's evidence is in accordance with the pocket book, that he would have gone to the Security Branch to start with a course as part of the Security Branch, is that what he put?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Not a course, orientation.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, but My Lord, I have difficulty in this way of cross-examination, because I want to know what Mr Ngo's version is.
	Mr Ngo has ten different kinds of versions and nothing has been put here, and I am placing this on record now My Lord, I don't know what Mr Ngo's version about these entries are.
	Can we accept that this is in accordance with Mr Ngo's version, what is Mr Ngo's version?  Did he go for a course, was he drafted into the Security Branch, was this when he joined the Security Branch, what is Mr Ngo's version My Lord?
	If my learned friend doesn't want to put Mr Ngo's version, obviously then one can argue about it, because he put this morning that Mr Ngo's version was that he was transferred to the Security Branch in July 1988.
	That is the reason why I want to know what is Mr Ngo's version with respect.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: We can see what the diaries say, that is what he is dealing with the pocket book.  He is dealing with the pocket book and we know what the pocket book is saying, and we know who wrote that pocket book.

MR DU PLESSIS: But My Lord, he hasn't stated that Mr Ngo says that, agrees with this and that this will be Mr Ngo's evidence, because Mr Ngo hasn't testified about this.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: It doesn't matter Mr Du Plessis, really it doesn't matter.  What Mr Memani is doing, is showing what Mr Ngo has written in his pocket book and he want the answers from the witness.

MR DU PLESSIS: Can I accept that what is written in the pocket book, will be Mr Ngo's evidence about that as well, it will accord with his evidence, that he is not going to dispute his own pocket book, can I accept that My Lord?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I really don't have to answer that question, there is no need for us to answer that question.  Mr Ngo has testified and this documents are produced subsequent to his evidence, and if his counsel decides to show the contents of those documents to this witness, he is inviting some comments from this witness, he is entitled to do that.

MR DU PLESSIS: My Lord, the only reason why I am raising this point with respect My Lord, is that I am going to ask for Mr Ngo to be recalled, and I want to give my learned friend, with respect, a chance to put Mr Ngo's evidence on record now, because I am going to argue if he doesn't put his version on record to any witnesses that he puts any version to, My Lord, that there is certain deductions that you make of it, but I am giving my learned friend ...

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Du Plessis, we don't need to be reminded by anybody as to what we will deal with any aspect of the matter if there is more evidence on it.
	We don't need to be reminded of it.

MR DU PLESSIS: I know My Lord, I am just drawing your attention to it.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No, you don't need to draw our attention to that, we don't need that reminder.

CHAIRPERSON: No more questions?

MR DU PLESSIS: I don't have any questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  May this witness also be excused.  They can always come back.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, My Lord, if it is necessary we will make the witnesses available again on request of anybody.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, how many witnesses have you got available that we might be able to dispose of now?

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, at this stage I have only Phahlane here who must be cross-examined, then I also have a Mr Molefi who has not testified at all yet.   And also the two Lekethlane sisters who have not testified at all.

CHAIRPERSON: We should just dispose of the one witness who have testified, so that she does not have to come here again.

MR STANDER: As it pleases you.  I then call Anne Phahlane to the witness stand.

MS PHAHLANE: (still under oath)

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I will attempt to be brief.

CHAIRPERSON: I trust that you will, do more than attempt.

MR VISSER: I don't want to prove your trust to be misplaced Mr Chairman.  I will really make an attempt.
	Ms Phahlane, have you notified the TRC of the fact that you consider yourself to be a victim, and if you did, can you tell us when you did that?
	I am going to refer to page 140 of Bundle A, Mr Chairman, actually 140 to 141 of Bundle A.  Ms Phahlane, did you hear the question?

MS PHAHLANE: I heard the question.

MR VISSER: Do you have a reply?

MS PHAHLANE: Yes, I do.

MR VISSER: Well, please will you do it then.  Tell us.

MS PHAHLANE: May I ask the question, I did not understand your question sir?

MR VISSER: Did you at all notify the TRC of the fact that you consider yourself a victim of gross violations of human rights and if you did, can you remember when you did so?