Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-14

MS MESSIAS: During this incident I was in my last month of pregnancy and Ronny were going to come to us that evening.  At that specific stage he said I'll see you between 7 and half past 7.  Unfortunately my father answered the telephone and they said they wanted to talk to him and I said it's strange why do they want to speak to my father. And my mother said she'll take the telephone and they said no they specifically want to talk to my father.  
And they said  Ronny have been shot and I can't tell you how it felt at that stage.  You just suddenly feel that he had to be here now, I was so shocked.  The baby was to be born that same month, I had to take tablets, I had to take medicine.  Some times you felt I didn't want to live any more and then I thought think about this child.  
Ronny was killed on the 8th , he was buried on the 14th and on the 13th the child was born.  After the child's birth I had to leave the hospital the day right after the birth.  This child grew up with my mother and my father's assistance.  
Also I wanted to thank Ronny and for the brothers and some times he came from school and said why don't I have a father and the children would ask where's your father and he said no my father had been shot.  And I said one day you will understand, not now but one day.  And everybody said that he - something - all this is going to influence him a lot.  He is   slow at learning at school and - but it is important for me to keep him in the right way, but he stayed at school in he is in Std 8.

ADV POTGIETER: What is his name?

MS MESSIAS: His name is also Ronald.

ADV POTGIETER: Is there anything else you which to add, is that all you want to say?  Thank you very much, thank you very much Mr Carollisen, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Rev Xundu, thank ...[intervention]

REV XUNDU: [indistinct] Richard, if you remember the name of the Magistrate who was presiding.

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: I can't remember now but I do have it on file somewhere.

REV XUNDU: Also do you know who owned the flat into which your brother  [indistinct]

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: It was a municipal - the flat belonged to the municipality but ...[intervention]

REV XUNDU: Do you know who rented the flat?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: It was a Constable Isaacks.

REV XUNDU: Who actually called the police, was it the wife of - who called the police?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: His mother, in fact that his - his wife left him afterwards because  of the incident.  I think it was because of the incident and she was willing to testify here and give us the whole story because she knew what happened -exactly what happened, but unfortunately  she's under psychiatric treatment - psychiatric treatment.

REV XUNDU: Where is Van Zyl now, do you know?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: Sorry.

REV XUNDU: Where is Van Zyl now?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: I don't know where Mr Van Zyl is - Constable Van Zyl is.

CHAIRPERSON: Pumla Gobodo

MS GOBODO: Thank you Chairperson,  Sandra and Richard it's been about 20 years.  It must have been very difficult for both of you to go threw the trauma of the death of your boyfriend and your brother.  
And I want to address my questions to Richard, on the day that your brother died you were with him?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: Yes.

MS GOBODO: Were you often with your brother in the evening?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: Ja, it - for me - maybe it was more difficult for me because he was like a for - many people I can still remember some incidents were shopkeepers would call us in and tell us, give us some sweets because they thought we were twins.  In actual fact it was a nice gave for us to play because people believed that we were twins.

MS GOBODO: So you were also friends with your brother?

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: Ja, we were - we were inseparable, we were always together.

MS GOBODO: Richard, I just want you to tell us a little bit about how you remember the death of your brother.

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: It's difficult to - it's so hard to explain but we used to share a room,  we played 
rugby, he was - we were both - we played center together.  Now suddenly I had - I gave up rugby because we - we had such good understanding.  
There's nobody to share with in actual fact we - we had such big plans.  I would study Comma's and he would go into the building industry and then we would start our own business.  All those dreams were shattered and as I've said before what hurts most I somehow I could manage the pain but to see my mom suffer was - she was a wonderful women and to see her suffer was pain all the way.

MS GOBODO: And what you've told us also is how much your - your own guilt has affected you and I just want to say that that has been seen to happen when people observe the death of someone they're very close too.
A sense of holding yourself responsible for it when you are not responsible for it, in fact, but it's just a struggle to deal with the trauma yourself.  I just want to mention that to you that you obviously are struggling and you have been struggling for all this 20 years to deal with being at the spot where your brother died.

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: Ja, I don't think people will realize how - how difficult it was for me to think maybe I've made the wrong dissuasion, maybe we should have walked into the line of fire and maybe it would have worked out better.  Why did I - why didn't I pull him with into the flat I was going into.  Why did - there's so many why's, it difficult to answer.

MS GOBODO: It's very difficult in - and I think it's shows how hard it still is for you to deal with the loss of your brother, thank you Richard.

RONALD CHARLES CAROLLISEN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  It is very difficult to find words to comfort you because in English to says, but it seems as if it is so simple.  It's easy to say we shall comfort you and you think oh it's just hollow words because it's not something you feel, but I hope that while you were telling your story, you have realized that you are in the midst of a audience who are very sympathetic and they feel for what you have suffered.  
 The story is to a grate deal unbelievable.  When you say there he was in the bathroom, he came out, his hands were in the air and then still he was shot.  There are many people who will say it cannot be the truth and we will have to establish what had happened exactly.  And to establish why - now why would you come here and tell lie and we wish to say to you that we feel with you.
We are very sorry for that incident and we will try our utmost best to see how we can for fill your requests.  And when you think about your mother and your father and now also a young son and especially when they ask him where - what had happened to his father.  You must know that we will try our utmost best to see what we can do.
We will see what we can do to commemorate your brother - to provide a tombstone and we hope that the newspaper will hear what you have said - they have ears - and we will see and wait to see what they will do.  And we hope, I mean , that the fact that you have come here and spoken in this forum can be a thing that helps a little bit in lightning this burden which Pumla has spoken about.  That you have  spoken now in the open, thank you.