Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-20

MR SIBANYONI: And you said Mr Khanyile returned after he left for the first time, but he left again.  When he returned, were you not eager to know why they were called, what was the meeting all about?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No, I had no desire.  I thought I would question him in the morning, as to what the alarm had been for.

MR SIBANYONI: Why didn't you ask him in the morning as you intended to do so?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I did not question him because when I realised that my chest was a little bit better, I felt that I should go to town and do my business there.

MR SIBANYONI: Can you think of a reason why Mr Victor Mthembu and those witnesses at the criminal trial, would say that you were at Boipatong when you were not there?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I think because I was a leader who was always amongst them, they may have assumed that I was there.

MR SIBANYONI: Is it not so that maybe you want to maintain the version which you gave before the criminal trial?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Please repeat the question.

MR SIBANYONI: Is it not so that you want to stick to the version which you gave at the criminal trial?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is not so, I am telling the truth.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

ADV SIGODI: Can you tell me why - you heard Mr Mkhize's evidence yesterday, didn't you?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: And you heard him say that he decided that an attack must be launched because there was a threat on his life?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I heard him say so.

ADV SIGODI: And that the decision came entirely from him?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I heard him say so.

ADV SIGODI: Now what I would like to know is, if you had a caucus with him some two weeks earlier, why would Mr Mkhize not tell you that today we are going to launch the attack, why would you not be informed of that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I think that maybe he had already heard that I was not well on that day, that is what I think.  I cannot be certain.

ADV SIGODI: How long had you been ill?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I had been unwell since the morning of that day.

ADV SIGODI: Did you see Mr Mkhize on that day?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: As I was sitting in the yard during the day, I did see him passing on my left.  I did not see where he eventually went to.

ADV SIGODI: Did he know that you were sick?  Did he know that you were ill?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I am not sure, but I had not told him about it.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you Chairperson.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, just one small aspect.  It is Mr Buthelezi, around the issue of negotiations.  You did say that you were in favour of negotiations, did I understand that correctly?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I said I had the desire to hold negotiations with them.

MR LAX: You also said that you were not sure how to make contact with the people in the township, did I understand that correctly?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I don't think you heard me correctly.  I said our problem was that it was not easy to communicate with ANC leaders, because in the township, if they were to communicate with us, they would be regarded as sellouts to Inkatha.

MR LAX: Why didn't you go to your leadership in Johannesburg, contact the office and say, we are having a terrible problem, we need to contact the ANC, can you do it through the right channels for us?  It would have been a simple way of dealing with negotiations, getting them going?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I did not do that.  It was our duty as leaders at grassroots level to find and identify people from our own ranks who would do that.

MR LAX: But you have just said you had a problem doing that, so why didn't you do something else?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: We had a problem, we had a serious problem of contacting ANC leaders from Tserela.  We did not succeed in doing that.

MR LAX: Why didn't you try and use the police?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: At that time, the police were not in favour of such negotiations, they would normally say that it was not their duty to do so.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you employed at the time of the attack on Boipatong?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: At the time, I was out of a job, I was unemployed.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you earn your living?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I used to sell in the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: What things were you selling?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Foodstuffs and fresh produce, like vegetables.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you fairly busy?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, at that time, it was busy because the people at the hostel did not go out to town.

CHAIRPERSON: Your shop or outlet, was there any other person who was hawking vegetables, or other things at the hostel?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I will say yes, there were other people who were selling at the hostel, because it was a huge place.

CHAIRPERSON: Describe this illness that you had on the 17th of June 1992?  You spoke about your chest, what was the problem?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I still have a problem, it becomes tight and I am unable to walk long distances.  I become cold, I become cold and also very hot.

CHAIRPERSON: How long would it last?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Would you please repeat that?

CHAIRPERSON: How long would that last?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Even up to this day, I still have this problem.

CHAIRPERSON: But you can walk, you can come to the hearing, right?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: If it is not too bad, yes, I am able to walk distances.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you taking any medication for your chest problem?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: At that time, I did not have any medication in the room.

CHAIRPERSON: I gather that you were in bed as a result of your illness?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long had you been in bed?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: It had not been for many days, because it is a problem that comes and goes.  If the weather changes, it becomes cold, then I have the problem.

CHAIRPERSON: I am talking about the day, the 17th, you have told us that you were in bed, you were laying down.

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I had had this problem for the whole day.  That was why I was in bed on this day.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   When you were told to apply for amnesty, what were you told about the process of amnesty?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I was told to lodge an application so that I can get an opportunity to appear before the Committee and relate what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you told who could make that application?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I was told that my Attorney should  lodge the application.

CHAIRPERSON: But were you told who qualified for amnesty?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, they told me that if you were convicted for a crime like I was, you should lodge an application.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not told that people who qualify for amnesty, are people who have done something wrong, not necessarily who have been convicted?  Were you told about that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I was told that as a person who was convicted of attacking Tserela, I should come before the TRC.  I was told about my situation, that I should come and seek amnesty and clear my name before the people of Tserela.

CHAIRPERSON: In so far as you were concerned, when you appeared in court, did you consider yourself to have done anything wrong?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I was charged and the Court decided that I indeed was guilty.

CHAIRPERSON: No forget for the moment about what the charges were and what the Court found, I want to find out from you whether did you consider yourself to have done anything wrong in regard to the massacre in Boipatong?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I realised that I had done something wrong, I did not tell the whole truth in court.

CHAIRPERSON: When you appeared in court, was there anything that you considered having done wrong?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were then told that you could apply for amnesty, were you told that you are required to tell the truth?