Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-13

MR COETZER: Mr Khumalo, you yourself said during the Court case that you were, you have been on the farm before the 24th, why are you changing your story now?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Sir, I am not disputing what you are saying.  Sir I was just responding to the questions and I was fighting for my defence, I was defending myself.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you Mr Coetzer, I do not think that we will get anything else.

MR COETZER: I have no further questions and thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR COETZER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Coetzer.  Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson, I have a few questions.

MS MTANGA: Mr Khumalo you testified yesterday that you joined the PAC in 1990, am I correct?

BONGANI KHUMALO: That is correct.

MS MTANGA: In your application you stated that your political organisation was AZANYU and you mention nothing about the PAC.  Can you explain why didn't you mention the PAC in your application?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Truly speaking, I was not mentally stable when I ended up in that organisation.

MS MTANGA: Which organisation, Mr Khumalo?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Where I am sitting now, just as it has been mentioned yesterday.

MS MTANGA: Mr Khumalo, I don't understand your answers.  My first question to you was why did you not put the PAC in your application, why did you only mention AZANYU in your application, what's your answer to that?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Oh, when I completed the forms I was in a hurry so I left some items not completely filled.

MS MTANGA: Can you tell this Committee what's the difference between AZANYU and PAC?

BONGANI KHUMALO: PAC is an organisation, AZANYU, it's part of the organisation.

MS MTANGA: What part of the organisation, Mr Khumalo?

BONGANI KHUMALO: It is the youth organisation.

MS MTANGA: Yesterday you gave evidence and you said AZANYU was the Task Force, what did you mean by that?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Well I did not respond correctly, but I'm stressing my response yesterday and I was not mentally stable at that time.

MS MTANGA: At which time, Mr Khumalo?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yesterday when I was here.

MS MTANGA: So what are you saying today?  Yesterday you said you were a member of the Task Force and you were asked what Task Force and you said AZANYU, what are you saying today?  Are you saying you were not a member of AZANYU?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I'm a member of AZANYU.

MS MTANGA: And I'm asking you, was AZANYU a Task Force as you testified yesterday?

BONGANI KHUMALO: No, that is not correct.  My apologies please.

MS MTANGA: What is a Task Force, Mr Khumalo?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Task Force is also part of the PAC.  It is also a youth organisation.  My apologies please, yes, I'm being asked questions but many of the things I have forgotten, please bear with me Gentlemen.

MS MTANGA: Did Mr Makwara tell you that the Task Force is a youth organisation that is part of the PAC?  Where did you get this?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Well that was my recollection as I responded to questions and because so many things happened and that's why I'm saying I do not - I will not recall some of the things very well because it's been a long time ever since I came into contact with them.

MS MTANGA: Mr Khumalo you were with Mr Makwara from 1990 up until 1992 when you committed this offence and you joined the PAC in 1990 and do you want to tell us you don't know what the Task Force is if you were really a member of the PAC as you testified?

BONGANI KHUMALO: It is the PAC soldiers, they fall under the APLA and they assist APLA with anything that is needed within the organisation, that is if I recall very well, but I believe so.

MS MTANGA: Why did you confuse the Task Force with AZANYU then?

BONGANI KHUMALO: My apologies, I made a mistake.

MS MTANGA: Who was the President of the PAC in 1992, Mr Khumalo?

BONGANI KHUMALO: If I recall well it was Clarence Makwetu.

MS MTANGA: And who was the first President of the PAC?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Just bear with me for a minute.

MS MTANGA: Mr Khumalo while you think that answer, can I ask you my next question?  Who was the Deputy President of the PAC in 1992?   Do you know  who was ... ja, carry on.

BONGANI KHUMALO: I only have Clarence Makwetu's name in my memory, I'm sorry for those that I cannot recall their names.

MS MTANGA: You were a member of the PAC in the Free State.  Can you give me the original Chairperson in the Free State in 1992?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I don't quite understand your question.

MS MTANGA: I am saying to you you were a member of the PAC in the Free State region and I'm asking you, who was the original Chairperson of the PAC in the Free State.

BONGANI KHUMALO: I have forgotten, I'm sorry.

MS MTANGA: Mr Khumalo I would like to make you aware that the questions that I'm asking you, it's political education, they form part of political education that you receive as a PAC member especially if you get recruited into the Task Force this is basic information that you should know about the PAC and you don't know.  What do you say to this?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Ma'am yes, but I have explained that, I don't know how should I put this really, let me put it this way.  I was sentenced to death and ever since that I can't think straight, that is why I'm still having problems even at this stage.

MS MTANGA: Finally Mr Khumalo I want to put it to you that I will argue that you are a criminal trying to hijack the amnesty process and this offence was never committed for the political benefit of the PAC as you have testified here today and yesterday.  What do you say to this?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I'm not a criminal, but I explained the problem here and the problem that I find myself in.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Just one before you do, Mr Mbandazayo.  In your application, question 9(b), did you know the person you killed because what I'm reading here is that you say it's, I want to give you the full names, Mr Wessels Cronje Odendaal.  Did you know that the person you killed was Mr Wessels Cronje Odendaal?

BONGANI KHUMALO: I knew him only as Wessels at that time.  The person who provided me with information about his house, told me that.

CHAIRPERSON: And despite the death sentence, you remembered that?

BONGANI KHUMALO: Yes Sir that he was Odendaal and the others, no, I only learned about them in the documents, that was only then that I managed to know his full names.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Khumalo.  Any re-examination Mr Mbandazayo.

ADV SANDI: Sorry maybe I can ask just one question before Mr Mbandazayo.  I hear you keep on saying yesterday when you gave your evidence-in-chief you were mentally unstable and as a result you could not think straight, but did you tell Mr Mbandazayo, you lawyer yesterday or at any stage thereafter?  Does he know about this?  Did you tell him about this problem you have?

BONGANI KHUMALO: He does not know, really.

ADV SANDI: Why didn't you tell him if you had such a problem?

BONGANI KHUMALO: When I took the stand I tried not to be difficult.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

BONGANI KHUMALO: Thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.  Chairperson, I don't think any re-examination now will take our case any further.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Is that you case Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the case for the applicant, Chairperson, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR COETZER: We will not be calling any witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No witnesses Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, could you briefly tell us why we should grant amnesty?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, without wasting the time of the Committee and everybody here, it's my submission that the evidence which has been placed before the Committee is enough for the Committee to reach and fair and a just decision in this matter.  Thank you.