Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-20

MR VISSER: It came from Mr Memani Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Or presumably from his client.

MR VISSER: No, Mr Chairman, we had four pocket books during the last appearance and for some reason or another, you took three and Mr Memani took one.  I distinctly remember that I had four.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that is all right then.

MR VISSER: That is probably how it happened.  But in any event, my question Capt Khoja only relates to the latest pocket book in date, and that is number 4, that is the one that goes from May 1988 to 22 July 1988.

CHAIRPERSON: June.

MR VISSER: June, 1988.

UNKNOWN: I see July 1988 here, 22nd of July.

MR VISSER: Yes, that is right at the end, page 44, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And what I want to know is, this pocket book, was this the latest pocket book that you could find where you looked for these pocked books referring to Mr Ngo?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Were, just to make it clear, were there any other pocket books referring to Mr Ngo's actions in late 1988 or early 1989?

UNKNOWN: I would not be in a position to explain that, because I don't have them in my possession.  I don't have them, these are the only ones I have.

MR VISSER: Are those the only ones you found when you searched?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you look at page 77 of pocket book number 4.
	What is the first word on that page, arrest?  I am asking for guidance?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I am just trying to get it.  It is page 77 you are referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the last page.

MR VISSER: Yes.

ADV MEMANI: It is arrest, My Lord.

MR VISSER: It looks like arrest yes, and then something is scribbled.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the time it seems, something 45.

MR VISSER: Yes, and then it says blue Ford Cortina, five arms dagga.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it there is blue Ford Cortina and what seems to be a registration number, GTG656T.

MR VISSER: Yes, My Lord.  Capt Khoja, could you just look at that please.  The pocket book you had now is the one that we are referring to, the one that you had in your hand just now, page 77, do you see that?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR VISSER: Do you see the word there, arrest?

UNKNOWN: I see a blue Ford Cortina, oh, yes, I see arrest.  I see that it is right at the top.

MR VISSER: Now, you didn't, this isn't your handwriting, or is it?  Is this your handwriting?

UNKNOWN: This is not my handwriting.

MR VISSER: Do you know anything about this, does this pertain to anything that we have testified about now?

UNKNOWN: I do not remember anything regarding this case.

MR VISSER: Right, My Lord, I don't know if ...

CHAIRPERSON: It get's a bit more complicated on the next page where there are various addresses which may mean something and we have now got a Ford Cortina, GCM029T, colour cream white.

MR VISSER: I see that.  Capt Khoja, turn to the last page, the last page, page 78, do you see that.  Yes, the last page.  You will see there are telephone numbers, it seems that the one is yours, the top one 8054251, do you see that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I see that.

MR VISSER: And then right at the bottom, the third line from the bottom, it says Ford Cortina, GCM 029T, colour cream white, do you see that?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR VISSER: Do you know at all if that was perhaps, does that have any relation to the vehicle that Mr Ngo drove?  The vehicle of Venter, do you know, because you testified ...

UNKNOWN: No, I do not know anything about this issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's not confuse this witness further, perhaps enquiries could be made of the licensing authorities as to the details of these vehicles.

MR VISSER: We will endeavour to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: And perhaps in those circumstances, I better keep the pocket books.

MR VISSER: I would suggest so or we could keep that as well.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the occurrence book?

MR VISSER: Pardon My Lord?

CHAIRPERSON: The occurrence book, can that be returned or do counsel feel that that should be kept?

MR VISSER: I think it should be kept My Lord, I think so.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, we can leave all the books.

MR VISSER: My Lord, I have a few further questions if you would allow me.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Capt Khoja, do you know of, or can you personally remember of any instance where Mr Ngo said to you that he was going to see Capt Loots?  Did he ever tell you that he was going to see Capt Loots?

UNKNOWN: I remember.

MR VISSER: Was Mr Ngo ever transferred to the Security Branch formally?

UNKNOWN: Not.

MR VISSER: And is it possible that Mr Ngo could have gone to the Kompol building for any other reason, other than seeing Captain Loots, to deliver something or something, can you comment on that?

UNKNOWN: The barracks was distributing post to different Units, it was myself or Ngo himself.

CHAIRPERSON: It usually went, post is delivered that is set out in the occurrence book that you have gone to deliver post and the time of your return is recorded, isn't that so?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: My Lord, if you will just bear with me.  I just want to get instructions.  Thank you My Lord, I have no further questions.

MR VISSER: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  There is one matter, I don't know if it is of any importance, but in going through these documents, I noticed that time and again, the words and Ngo have been entered.
	Look for example at page 20, I just happened to open it at that page, of the first volume of the occurrence book, entry 108.  You see that somebody had written it out duty of Warrant Officer Khoja report off duty.  Later somebody had added and Ngo.
	If you look at the previous page, page 19, entry 87, top left hand corner, Khoja report on duty, and then they have added and Ngo.

MR DU PLESSIS: My Lord, maybe I can clear this up, I don't have the answer, but maybe I can ask Capt Khoja about that.

CHAIRPERSON: It struck me, it may simply be carelessness that Ngo was not regarded as a very important part, can you explain this Captain?

UNKNOWN: Ngo was my assistant and I was the person in chief at the barracks, he was the most important person there.

ADV DE JAGER: The question is can you explain why his name was put in later and not at the same time as the report was written?

UNKNOWN: I might have forgotten his name, or mistakenly skipped his name.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, what makes the whole thing totally confusing, is that if you look at page 74, entry 133, you see Ngo has been put in as an afterthought.  135, Ngo has been put in as an afterthought.  136, Ngo appears in full.  137, Ngo appears in full and 138, he is reverted to an afterthought again.

MR DU PLESSIS: Maybe I can ask a  few questions about that, if you would allow me.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR DU PLESSIS: Capt Khoja, when you found the occurrence book and the pocket books, when you, after you found them, did you keep them in your possession?

UNKNOWN: No, I did not keep them with me.  I found them and at the same time, I came down to Bloemfontein, I did not keep them with me.

MR DU PLESSIS: What did you do with them after you found them?

UNKNOWN: I took them and I gave them to the person who accompanied me down to Bloemfontein, and then we left from Bloemfontein.

MR DU PLESSIS: Who was that?

UNKNOWN: Captain Bokaba.

MR DU PLESSIS: Right, now were you and Captain Bokaba together when you came to Bloemfontein?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did you stay here together?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And this is now for  now and last year November?  You came here together this time and the previous time, is that right?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MR DU PLESSIS: And did you ever see, or can I ask you this, the places where Ngo is filled in on top of the line, whose handwriting is that?  Let's look at the occurrence book, where His Lordship, Mr Justice Wilson referred to.  The occurrence book, page 74, the date is the 28th of January 1988.