Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-04

MR MEYER: That is indeed my question.  As I understand the General he is trying to convey to the Panel that although he was theoretically in charge of the investigation, he was under some sort of pressure to bring the perpetrators of the attack to book by his seniors, and under more pressure because of this previous incident of his cousin where he was threatened that he might lose his job because this person was released without being charged.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I mean who was giving him pressure?  Shouldn't he tell us that.  Where did this pressure come from?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I think I indicated earlier Mr Chair, that I had my Chief above me, I had the Commissioner of Police above me and I had the State President above me.  I indicated that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Who in particular put pressure to bear on you?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Okay from the President downwards, because as members of the Security we had access to the President and then we were given instructions from his office.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So are you saying that the President was aware of the methods that were being used?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes Mr Chair.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And he actually encouraged the use of those methods?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes, Mr Chair.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, continue Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  If I can just go back to where we were before you spoke about the pressure that you had and so on.  The fact is that you were in charge of the investigation and you knew that methods were being used in the interrogation that were not proper, that involved assaults and torture etc, and as you have already ...(tape 1a ends)

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.

MR MEYER: Regarding the pressure that you spoke about and you don't have to go into detail, except if the Panel wants more detail, but you have already spoken about the President and your seniors.  Let's talk about this specific incident with the attack on the police station.  What was their reaction and their attitude with regard to the performance or bringing the people who were responsible for the attack to justice?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Okay we were actually told to report progress on an hourly base and we were also instructed that you should leave no stone unturned, and if you had problems with vehicles or anything just shout we provide.  We even used the Commissioner's vehicle in order to alleviate shortage of vehicles that were attached to the Security Branch, and we were told never play with the suspects, you should deal with them severely.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You were told by who?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: We were told by the President.  I said we were told that every hour we should report progress to the President.

ADV BOSMAN: At this stage may I just ask you who told you that if, you know after the release of Mamabolo, who told you that if something like that would happen again you would find yourself out of a job or in a prison?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I was told by the President.  Okay the Louis Trichardt branch of the Security Branch of SAP then came to Sibasa looking for that person, Mamabolo, and when they heard that he was released then they went to the advisor, the chief advisor of the Security Branch who came from South Africa, and they reported this matter.  The matter was then reported to the President.  Then I was called by the President.

CHAIRPERSON: So, sorry just to get this clear Mr Meyer are you now applying for amnesty because you slapped a man 18 years ago in a moment of anger with an open hand across the face, or are you applying for amnesty in that you accept responsibility for what those under your control did to these people?  What is the position?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Both, both.

SISI KHAMPEPE: It doesn't appear from the application when you say both Mr Meyer, does it?  The application before me only refers to an incident with regard to the assault on a number of suspects including Mr Poswana?  That's the basis for which you are giving amnesty.

MR MEYER: Yes on the application on the papers itself it would seem to be the case that it is only for the assault on Reverend Poswana.
	However I think it is also specifically mentioned that the General was in charge of the investigation team, in paragraph 13 where he said that he took charge of the investigation and it is my submission that that would entail that he was also responsible for the, to a large extent for the acts of his subordinates.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But shouldn't you have brought that to our attention before you commenced giving evidence- in-chief of Mr Ramushwana so that we should know exactly what incident we have to hear Mr Ramushwana for his amnesty application?

MR MEYER: Yes, Mr Chairman I suppose it might have been helpful if I told you about it before hand.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Not helpful, procedural.

MR MEYER: Yes indeed.  I submit however that the application itself deals with not only with regard to General Ramushwana himself, it deals only with Reverend Poswana with regard to specific acts done by himself but he also talks about other persons being assaulted, for instance in paragraph 43, the purpose of the assault was to extract information which could lead to further arrests and to instil fear and fatigue so that the suspects, more than one, would give the information needed to make further arrests.
	For instance also paragraph 33 where he was talking about Ravele which was assaulted by some members of the mobile unit etc.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, continue Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  General what eventually happened to the people that were originally detained?  Do you know?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: There are some of the people who were charged before the court and found guilty, others cases were withdrawn.  I cannot remember which ones but I know, I think Reverend Poswana was charged and he got a suspended sentence.  He was convicted.

MR MEYER: So okay, is it correct that you don't know exactly who, what happened to which one of the detainees.

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Ja, ja.

MR MEYER: With regard to this specific incident.  The policemen that were killed and injured during the attack did you know them personally?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: I did not know them personally but I used to see them at the police station.  I think both of them were married and they had children, their mothers are, I could say their parents - that some of them are still alive and that's that.

MR MEYER: General, we have already covered the fact you were aware that assaults and torture methods were used during the interrogation, you were aware of that, you condoned it, you assaulted Mr Poswana personally, why did you use these methods of interrogation?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Obviously it was to try and find out and get information from the suspects so that we are able to come to the end of the investigation.

CHAIRPERSON: And you would classify that the type of case that you were investigating as being a political case?

MUTHEIWANA GABRIEL RAMUSHWANA: Yes.

MR MEYER: And how do you feel today General about the fact that you personally assaulted one of them and that you knew that the rest of them were being assaulted and tortured and you did not do anything about it?