Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR PRIOR: And during August of 1997, you were interviewed by a Mr John Lubbe who was an investigator with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission - the Amnesty Committee and you made a statement as result of his investigation?

BENNET SIBAYA: That is correct Sir.

MR PRIOR: I want you to tell this Committee what you recall and what you told the police in your statement and I'm purposely not going to lead you on any aspect of that unless you ask for assistance.  Could you proceed and tell your story.

BENNET SIBAYA: About what happened that day, is that where you want me to start?

MR PRIOR: Start from the beginning yes. Tell us where you were, when you were there, what time you were there and what you saw.

INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the first few words.

CHAIRPERSON: Please ...[intervention]

BENNET SIBAYA: It was in 1993 on the third year, we were in Guguletu with my friend.  I was going to visit my girlfriend but I did not know the area well so I got a bit lost.  We eventually ended up in a house where we asked a lady ...[intervention}

INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down.

MR PRIOR: Mr Sibaya, could you just slow down a little bit.  Yes, you said you went to Guguletu, you were looking for your girlfriend where she stayed and you  got lost in that area.

BENNET SIBAYA: The taxi driver did not know the area well - it was the first time I had gone there, it was after midnight.  We were supposed to go to NY141, we ended up in 114.  When you go to 129 you go across 115 so we also ended up in 129, is that clear?

MR PRIOR: Yes.  Where did your girlfriend stay?  What was the address you were looking for?

BENNET SIBAYA: 141 at 67 but my friend said 114, that's where the mistake was and that's why we ended up where we did.

MR PRIOR: Do you have a statement in front of you?

BENNET SIBAYA: Yes, I have.

MR PRIOR: Are you referring to that statement?

BENNET SIBAYA: No, I'm just telling you what happened on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just continue to tell us what happened.

BENNET SIBAYA: When I realised that we're spending a lot of time being lost, I ended up at this house where there was a white car.  I asked at the car where this number was that I was looking for - when I got there I realised that because of the registration, there was no to ask him because this car was from the homelands ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down.

CHAIRPERSON: Just slow down so that the interpreter can interpret.

BENNET SIBAYA: May I continue?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may continue.

BENNET SIBAYA: I knocked at the door of the house, a lady opened and she directed me to 141, she then told me that that was NY129. We realised that we were mistaken, I then went back to my friend telling him that we should give up - went back to the combi.  I did not know this area very well, it had been the first time I had gone there.

MR PRIOR: Yes, proceed.

BENNET SIBAYA: When I went to my friend - as we were leaving, we were giving up.  It was at night, I saw these children coming - I thought they had pipes in their hands however when they were closer I realised that those were not pipes but weapons.

MR PRIOR: Just stop there.  Yes, you noticed these were weapons?

BENNET SIBAYA: When they were far from me I thought these were pipes but when they came closer, I realised that these were guns.  I then said to my friend that  - my friend, that they must hide in the combi, I also tried to hide.  They then put these weapons in the white car.  After they had put the weapons in, they argued.  They were not talking loudly however the one said Madasi you forgot the cap in the car, I did not know what car they spoke of.
	The car then left, there were people in the car and some were left behind.  This car - the lights were not switched on, the brakes were applied and then I saw the registration.  I then committed this to memory ...[intervention]

MS QUNTA: Mr Chairman, could I ask the witness to go slow, I mean I can't follow him either in Xhosa or in English because it's just too fast.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibaya, please try and talk sufficiently slowly so that notes can be made of what you are saying.

BENNET SIBAYA: Where should I start?

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on from where you were.

BENNET SIBAYA: We then waited so that they go away.  After a while I noticed that where the car was there was a paper, I picked it up and read it.  I realised that these people did not know their destination.  This paper had a map on it, it was a map to Heidelberg ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the details of the map.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Prior, don't you think it would help if you would start leading this witness and taking him through stage by stage rather than letting him just ramble on like this.  I can see the difficulty people are having trying to note down what he's saying, particularly those who are going to have to question him.  Can't you assist by leading your witness?

CHAIRPERSON: I think there is a danger in leading him.

JUDGE WILSON: Well I don't think he has to put things to him but he can say: "stop here, stop here, stop here".

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, if the witness could look in my direction then I could possibly give him an indication to stop or pause.

CHAIRPERSON: This is most unsatisfactory.  Mr Sibaya, can you look at me please.  I want you to talk in such a way - slowly, so that we can write down what you are saying, do you understand?  When you talk too fast we can't follow what you are saying so please, just exercise a little patience because what you are saying is very, very important.  Carry on.

BENNET SIBAYA: I will start where I left off.

MR PRIOR: You were telling the Committee that you noticed that there was a paper that was dropped, you picked it up and you saw that there were certain things written on that paper.  Just tell us slowly what was written on the paper.

BENNET SIBAYA: It was a map that when you leave Observatory, you turn right then you go past Hartleyvale Stadium.

MR PRIOR: Please look at me - continue, continue.

BENNET SIBAYA: After Hartleyvale you turn left, you go past a bridge and after the bridge Heidelberg is on your right.

MR PRIOR: What did you do with this paper?

BENNET SIBAYA: I gave the paper to the Guguletu police.

MR PRIOR: Before you went to Guguletu police, what was the next thing that happened after you had picked up the paper?

BENNET SIBAYA: We were already leaving when I picked the paper up, we were going to the police.

MR PRIOR: Yes?

BENNET SIBAYA: Our statement was such that a car was being stolen and ammunition from the soldiers was being stolen.  Our destination was then disturbed because we had to go to the police.

MR PRIOR: So you thought that these weapons had come out of a soldier's vehicle, is that correct?

BENNET SIBAYA: That is what I thought.  The darker car I could not see, I only saw it or noticed it when they were getting out of the car.  Another matter was that the white car did not have a Cape Town registration.  I thought that perhaps this car belonged to people that were travelling and it was being stolen at the time, or had been stolen.

MR PRIOR: Did you notice the registration of the white car?

BENNET SIBAYA: The white car?

MR PRIOR: Yes.

BENNET SIBAYA: I memorised it, I know it to this day.

MR PRIOR: Tell us.

BENNET SIBAYA: Pardon?

MR PRIOR: Tell us please.

BENNET SIBAYA: The white car was XA12848, did you hear that?

MR PRIOR: Yes, thank you.

MR PRIOR: You say you noticed a dark coloured vehicle and you noticed these boys or these children as you referred to them, getting out of that vehicle?