Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-10

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot remember checking it.

MR MALAN: Would you ever have carried your pistol around without having it stocked to the full with the rounds of ammunition?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That would have been unlikely Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: You can continue.

MR VISSER: What was your state of mind during this experience?  Were you cool and collected, calm?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I would say that in those circumstances, the emotions were running high.  It is not an everyday situation, it is not a pleasant situation, under stress, under pressure.

MR VISSER: Mr Rosslee, it was obviously dark?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: It was very dark Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Was it so dark that you could not observe what was going on if you stood close to people, well close to where Mr Bhila was shot or what was the position?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, as I recall it was very dark and you could see the outlines of the other people, but no detail.

MR VISSER: You thereafter got in the kombi and left?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And according to your Exhibit B it was on the way back, that you had a flat tyre?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is the way I remembered it.

MR VISSER: Yes.  You know today that there is a suggestion that you are wrong, and that you had the flat on the way there?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes, but that is the way that you remember it?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: May I just come back to this number of rounds.  Mr Rosslee, you responded to a question of Mr Visser to whether you were calm, your state of mind.  Your response was that in those circumstances, emotions were running high, that it is not a pleasant situation.
	Why would your recollection then have been that you cleared the pistol, why would you have shot a person seven times, if it is not pleasant, and that in the head?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, as I said, I don't recall shooting Mr Bhila seven times in the head.  I recall firing the first shot and then the weapon jamming.

MR MALAN: Yes, but you also recall your impression that you had emptied the pistol?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That the pistol was locked back, and open, yes.

MR MALAN: So in other words, you would have continued to fire and cleared your pistol of ammunition?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot say, because I cannot remember after firing the first shot, if I fired, after the jam, if I fired more rounds.

MR MALAN: Maybe you are not, maybe you are missing the point that I want to ask.  I find it difficult that one can say I shot him seven times in the head, and at the same time say in a sense emotions were running high, but it was a job to be done, did not take any pleasure in it.  Why seven shots?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't know if I fired seven shots at him Mr Chairman, that is what I am trying to say.

MR MALAN: No, no, you ...

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I understand what you are saying,, but I didn't say I am just going to empty the pistol into Mr Bhila's head Mr Chairman.  There was no motive to fire seven shots into him at that stage.  I recall firing the one, having it jammed, clearing it and at the end of it, the pistol being locked back and open.

CHAIRPERSON: But you said, how do you come to recollect many shots if you can remember in both your affidavits, you talk of more than one shot.  Now you say you remember shooting him once, and then you pulled the pistol back to try to clear it.  Why did you, if it is something you dislike doing, something that was so unpleasant, why did you exaggerate it by saying several shots?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: My recollection was that the pistol locked open and the assumption I made Mr Chairman, was that the pistol was empty.  That is normally when the pistol locks open.

CHAIRPERSON: But you have told us that you, yourself, pulled the - cocked the pistol several times to clear it, not shooting?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is right, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, why did you say in your original affidavit, Exhibit B, that you fired several times, various, I shot the person several times with the pistol in his head.  In your application to us, you say seven times?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, as I say, I cannot recollect the exact amount of shots I fired.  I do recall the pistol being open and my assumption was the pistol was empty, and those rounds that hadn't been cocked out while I was trying to clear the jam, had been fired.

MR MALAN: Mr Rosslee, still on this point.  You did not give any indication about the pistol having jammed, that is an important situation.  If you can remember the first shot, you can remember the pistol being cleared of all rounds of ammunition.
	You get evidence here from other applicants, referring to a jam of the pistol.  Are you not trying to accommodate them, do you really recall the jam, because when you responded to the Chair here, you didn't refer to the jam, you referred to the first shot and it being cleared.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Mr Chairman, I have no reason to lie here.  One of the reasons I am being here, is to be open and honest.  I am recalling what I remember from that incident.

MR MALAN: That is exactly the question, will you please tell us exactly what you really remember, no construction.  Tell us what you remember.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I remember firing the first round into Mr Bhila, I remember getting a jam.  I remember clearing or wracking the slide a number of times and I remember the slide being locked back and the pistol being empty.

MR MALAN: If you had indeed cocked it again, and it didn't produce another shot, what would have kicked back the slide?  Does it not respond to the firing of a bullet?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: What would have happened, standard operating procedure would be if a jam occurred, to cock the weapon once or twice.

MR MALAN: Yes.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: All right.

MR MALAN: And shoot again, and the moment you pull the trigger, it would go forward.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: The slide would operate if there wasn't another jam, yes.

MR MALAN: Exactly.  So what would have produced at the end of this exercise a pistol in your hand, with the slide back?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: The slide back?  The magazine had to be empty Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: Yes, but it will only go back on the basis of a firing.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Or if it is being cocked, yes.

MR MALAN: But you are saying you were trying to clear it, and shoot every time, that is your recollection?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No, not is not what I said Mr Chairman.  I said I fired a shot, I tried to clear the jam and I remember, I don't remember firing a second or a third shot, and I remember the pistol being empty at the end of it.  That is what I recall.

MR MALAN: So it might have had only a single bullet?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't know.  I don't recall.

MR MALAN: But when you now said what you do recall is firing the first shot, sliding it back, or cocking it again and remembering it being empty?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Do you remember a jam?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I do remember a jam, that is why I would have cocked it after the first shot Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: If it didn't cock itself?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Mr Rosslee, who told you to shoot Mr Bhila?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't know if I was told to shoot Mr Bhila, Mr Chairman.

ADV SIGODI: Did you just shoot?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't know if I was told, or if I did it purely because I knew we were there to eliminate Mr Bhila.  I don't know if someone said to me shoot or fire or whatever.

ADV SIGODI: When you left the shooting range, did you know that you were one of the people who were going to shoot?