Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-27

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: In fact, Cape Gate's premises extend from approximately that point right till the end of Nobel Boulevard, would you agree with that?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbatha, can you yourself understand the, on your own, the photograph that's in front of you?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: My attorney did show this to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Well your attorney is, your legal representative, is in fact pointing out certain things on the photograph for you, right?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, continue Mr Da Silva.

MR DA SILVA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.   Now I understand your evidence to be, and you must please correct me if I'm wrong, that immediately after the attack, the group gathered in the veld between Boipatong and Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, is that correct?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Would you agree that it was more or less in the middle of that veld that the group gathered?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, it was just opposite the footbridge.

MR DA SILVA: Would you agree, you say opposite the footbridge, would you say that the majority of the group was to the north of the footbridge, in other words towards the Trek Garage, or do you say that the group all congregated directly opposite the footbridge?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: That's where we had gathered, near the bridge.

MR DA SILVA: Right.   And I understand your evidence to be that Mr Damara Quonquo was close to you, is that right, at that stage?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, even though he was not very close, but I could see him.

MR DA SILVA: I haven't received a translation, Mr Chairman, but I assume the witness assented to that, he agreed with the proposition?

MR LAX: His answer was, even though he was not very close, but I could see him.

MR DA SILVA: Thank you, Mr Lax, I didn't receive a translation.   And you say Damara fired in the direction of the military vehicle with an AK47?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Was this AK47 set on automatic or was it single shots?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No, as far as I know it was raised to fire a single shot.

MR DA SILVA: Did Damara fire more than one shot?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I think he fired twice, if I'm not mistaken.

MR DA SILVA: Now you also testified under cross-examination that the soldiers moved past Cape Gate, that was your testimony, in an answer to Mr Berger's question?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: At what stage did you see the soldiers move past Cape Gate?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: They drove past Cape Gate after the shot was fired.   They wanted to stop before reaching Cape Gate, but then they continued driving past Cape Gate.

MR DA SILVA: I'm sorry, Mr Chairman, I think my receiver's defective, I'm not receiving an answer at all.

MR LAX: If you pick it up, Mr Da Silva, if you pick it up like that, then it will be in line with the transmitter, which is this little box just behind the TV.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Lax, while you're speaking, I'm not receiving anything at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you swop these, get, you know, another that's... (intervention).

MR DA SILVA: I've changed transmitters, Mr Chairman.  Mr Mbatha, the question was, when you saw this vehicle moving past Cape Gate, where were you at that stage?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: By that time we were approaching, just about to cross the road.    The cars, or the vehicle, was just about to turn at the robots, not yet, it had not yet arrived at Cape Gate.

MR DA SILVA: What I'm trying to establish is, you said that you saw the motor vehicle, or the military vehicle, move past Cape Gate, I want to know where were you at that stage when you saw the vehicle going past Cape Gate?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I am saying I saw it approaching Cape Gate during which time the shots had already been fired and we swiftly crossed the road to avoid being arrested in case the police come back.

MR DA SILVA: So are you saying that you had not crossed the road when the vehicle was in the direction, going in the direction of Cape Gate?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, we were just about to cross the road when this vehicle approached Cape Gate and we could see it just about to disappear.

MR DA SILVA: You see, would you agree with me that this is a very flat area?   The point that I'm trying to make is that if one stands on the bridge, at the footbridge, you can't see Cape Gate, because Boipatong is in the way?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: And I understand your evidence now to be that the vehicle was going in the direction of Cape Gate, you did not in fact see it go past Cape Gate, is that your evidence?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I did not see it go past Cape Gate, but I noticed that it was just about to move past Cape Gate.

MR DA SILVA: Now when you saw the vehicle and you made the assumption it was going in the direction of Cape Gate, was the vehicle still at the Trek Garage?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: It had already gone past the garage or the filling station.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should just put to this witness, what your instructions are, because we seem to be going in some details, we have no idea what is it that you are disputing from his testimony.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, I will put my instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just put it to him and let's hear what he has to say.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Mbatha, you also testified that you saw this vehicle move from the left to the right in front of you.   At the stage that you saw it, were you still on the eastern side of the road, or had you crossed the road, when you're describing this?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Would you please repeat the question?

MR DA SILVA: You testified, under cross-examination that you saw the military vehicle moving in front of you, from left to right, in other words, if you look at the letter M, the vehicle was driving in the direction of the Trek Garage to Sebokeng, that was your evidence, you saw it from left to right.   I want to know where you were when you saw this vehicle moving from left to right?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: We were already outside Boipatong, just about to reach the footbridge.

MR DA SILVA: So you were still in the veld, in the open veld, when you saw the vehicle?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Would you agree with me that the vehicle that you saw did not move beyond the footbridge in Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, in other words it didn't go further than the footbridge?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: It drove past, it came from the direction of Vanderbijlpark, headed towards Sebokeng, and it turned at the garage, that is the Trek filling station.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Mbatha, my instructions are that the vehicle did not come from Vanderbijlpark.   Do you have any comment?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I don't know where I should say it came from then.

MR DA SILVA: My instructions are further that the first time the commander of that vehicle saw the group, it was in the vicinity of the robots near the Trek garage.   Do you have any comment?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I would not dispute that, because the vehicle was just in front of the garage, with their headlights on facing towards the east gate direction.   It was shot at when we were just closer to the garage and it proceeded on.

MR DA SILVA: The vehicle moved slowly down Frikkie Meyer Boulevard in the direction of the footbridge, and stopped approximately 50 to 30 metres away from the group, because they were too scared of approaching the group and they were scared they might be attacked by the group.   Do you have any comment about that?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I don't know anything about that.

MR DA SILVA: The vehicle then turned around and moved back to the vicinity of the robots and it did not turn right in Nobel Boulevard in the direction of Cape Gate.   Do you have comment in that regard?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I am telling you my first-hand experience.