Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-19

MR MAPOMA: I am not sure Chairperson, it all depends to the TV personnel.  I think it depends on the TV personnel, I do not know how much light they need, perhaps I might find out from them.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we should, if we just have the minimum light that is necessary for them to carry on with their business, without interfering with ours.

BHEKINKOSI MKHIZE: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, do you want to commence with your cross-examination?

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.  Chairperson, I have literally just been handed a statement, I believe that you have also just been handed a statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Which statement is that?

MR BERGER: It is a sworn statement, I guess it is an affidavit by Mr Andries Matanzima Nosenga.  I believe my learned friends have all been handed copies as well.

CHAIRPERSON: ... that is contained in this document?

MR MAPOMA: Sorry Chairperson, we have not yet handed the statement in, we have just received it when the Committee was just coming.  I've got the statement, the copies with me now, I can hand them in to the Committee.  It is an addition to the bundle of documents that are here.

CHAIRPERSON: The affidavit that is contained here, is not signed.

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I am loathe to do this, but from a brief reading of the statement, I have read a couple of paragraphs, it would appear that there is a lot in the statement that I will need to put in cross-examination of the witness.
	I can start.

CHAIRPERSON: Please get on, and if it is necessary, we will give you the opportunity to go through the statement and your colleagues who are with you in this matter, can read the statement in the meantime and then take over the cross-examination at some point.

MR BERGER: As you please Chairperson.  Mr Mkhize ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you commence, shall we - what was the last Exhibit number?  I take it that this statement is being handed in as part of the application of Mr Nosenga?

MS TANZER: It is Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Add it to the addendum to the Boipatong index, which is the last bundle of documents, and according to my numbering, this document goes up to page 17.
	Shall we then mark this one - does it go up to 23, right?  Is it necessary to give the addendum a separate Exhibit number?

MR BERGER: I suggest it would be  Chairperson.  We handed in our memorandum, that was O, I don't know if there were any Exhibits after that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it would be P.  The reply would then we Exhibit P.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, there were two replies, so might I suggest that the reply by the applicants be Exhibit P, that the reply by the SANDF be Exhibit Q and then the addendum will be Exhibit R.

CHAIRPERSON: The SANDF reply would then be Q, right?  The addendum to Boipatong index,  which consist of the application by Nosenga and the accompanying documents, shall be marked

EXHIBIT R: .   Yes, very well.  Yes, Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Mkhize, you have told the Committee that you were the leader of the AmaButho.  How did that fit in to the other structures at kwaMadala?

MR MKHIZE: Which structures?

MR BERGER: Were there any other structures besides the AmaButho in kwaMadala?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, there was a youth leadership and the middle leadership and that later on, that of AmaButho.

MR BERGER: Who was in charge of, who was the leader of the youth leadership?

MR MKHIZE: I wouldn't know exactly, but the one that I still remember is Mr Buthelezi.

MR BERGER: Which Buthelezi is that?

MR MKHIZE: There he is.

MR BERGER: You are pointing to somebody in the audience.  Is it one of the applicants?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Where is he, in which row?

MR MKHIZE: There he is.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you his first name, do you know his name?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is his name?

MR MKHIZE: He is Mqambileni Buthelezi.  Nicholas is his other name.

MR BERGER: And he was the leader of the youth in the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: And that was an IFP structure, am I correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Then you said there was a middle committee.  Who was the leader of the middle committee?

MR MKHIZE: It was Prince and ourselves.  We were part of that leadership.

MR BERGER: That is Prince Vanana Zulu that you are talking about?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: You say it was he, yourself and anyone else in the leadership?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, there were several others, but the one who was above us all was the Prince himself.

MR BERGER: Can you give the names of the others?

MR MKHIZE: That is not easy, I have forgotten them, it has been a long time now.

MR BERGER: Surely you can remember the other people who served with you on this committee, being the leaders of the IFP in the hostel?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, but then we did not know one another quite well.  I am from Mahlabatini and often times, they used to refer to me as Mkhize, they don't know my name, and I know them as Zulu, Shohesa, Mtjale, etc, and therefore it is not easy for me to know their actual name, apart from the surname.
	They too, like Prince Zulu for example,  he is the one who knows what my name is and my surname.

CHAIRPERSON: All that you are being asked is to give us the names of the other committee members, whether you knew them by surname or by first name, it doesn't matter.  All that Counsel requires is for you to tell us who else was a member of that committee, do you understand the question?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.  It was the Prince himself and Shohesa.  I am very sorry, I cannot remember the others, it has been a long time since.

CHAIRPERSON: You have said Zulu Shohesa, is there any other person that you can still recall who was a member of this committee?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, there are others that I can remember, but the problem is that I cannot recall them now, but when I see them, I can recall that they were part of the committee.
	We have gone our separate ways.  We left and I went to stay at a different place.  We are no longer together.

MR BERGER: Mr Mkhize, you served on this committee from 1990, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, if I am not mistaken, that is correct.  I think it was round about October.

MR BERGER: You served on the committee for almost two years before the massacre, correct?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: And the only people whose names you can now recall as being co-members with you on the committee is Prince Vanana Zulu and a man by the name of Shohesa.  That is all you can remember?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, these are the names that I can still recall.  The reason being that it has been a long time, and also the fact that we no longer reside in the same hostel.
	We are now around Sebokeng and some of them have remained behind at kwaMadala hostel, that is why I have lost their names.  I can only remember when I go back to the hostel, see them and I can recall that they were part of the committee.  Some came from Nongoma and I come from Mahlabatini.

MR BERGER: Is Shohesa amongst the applicants, is he present in the hall today?

MR MKHIZE: No.

MR BERGER: You mentioned Zondo and Mtjale, were they also on the committee?

MR MKHIZE: No, I was just giving an example to the fact that we used to use our surnames to refer to one another.

MR BERGER: Was this committee also known as the Steering Committee?

MR MKHIZE: I do not get it quite well.

MR BERGER: Do you know about the Steering Committee?

MR MKHIZE: It was a committee that was responsible for the residents of the hostel.

MR BERGER: Were you also on that committee?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Who else was on that committee?

MR MKHIZE: I have said earlier on that the Prince, as well as Shohesa.  I cannot recall the others, I cannot recall their names.