Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-05-07

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Can we continue?  Mama, I would like to know if these Ngcobo's children, are those your neighbour's children?

WITNESS:   Yes, they are.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Were they soldiers?

WITNESS:   No, no.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Are these the boys called Sipho Kehla, Tholagale Ngcobo?

WITNESS:   Yes.  Tholagale even got involved intimately with the ZP so that they could come and burn us.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: I would like to go a bit back and ask that when they shot at Sithembiso how old was he?

WITNESS:   Sithembiso was 23 years old, although I might not recall exactly.  Yes, Sithembiso was 23 years old, because he was still doing some piece jobs, part-time jobs.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: In your statement, Mama, you said there are eight children.  Can you tell us who are these children and what are their ages?

WITNESS:   Their ages I can only remember when I've got their birth certificates.  The older one, who was born when our house was already burnt out, he started getting stroke, getting sick.  He was born in 1960.  I used to go around with it in 1960 during the time the congress was burned.  This child now has got a stroke, is disabled, and cannot work.  For now he has just gone missing, and he was eventually discovered at Umkomaas.  When he gets sick he loses his mind and he goes away and you can't find him.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Is it a boy or a girl?

WITNESS:   It's a boy.  Yes, it is a boy.  Sithembiso is a twin with Bhekithemba.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: How old he is?

WITNESS:   No, I cannot remember.  I will only need to refer to their birth certificates.  I think Sithembiso was born in 1969.  And the other is Thobokile.  Thobokile died.  And then there are twins who came after Zenzele.  Zenzele died and now there is Nelson.  And there's Gugu who is still alive.  And then there is Zenzele's child, and Sithembiso's child.  He gave birth to this child during the time he was still doing these part-time jobs, but the mother brought this child to me.  This child is six years old.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: And he is being brought up by you?

WITNESS:   Yes, I am bringing up this child on my pension.  She is already at school, and it's a girl.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Mr Chair, I will yield to the Commissioners for questions.  I may come a little later.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you, Mama Ngcobo.  I would like to ask a question of where Zenzele was - was he still working for SAP?

WITNESS:   Yes, he was.

MR DLAMINI: At that time when he died were there some monies that were paid out to you to assist you?

WITNESS:   No.

MR DLAMINI: Those others who are disabled, is there nothing - is there no grant that they get from Government?

WITNESS:   The money from Sithembiso is R400,00, so all in all we get R820,00 per month.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you.

MR DLAMINI: /MS GCABASHE

UNKNOWN: I have heard you reporting that you know that Zenzele was shot by the neighbour's boys.  Were these boys arrested?

WITNESS:   No, they were not arrested.  Nobody was arrested.  From the time when they burned the house up until I left I started making charges at the police station on this issue, but there was nothing that was done.  I even went to CR with my sister, Ma Khumalo, who was accompanying me.

UNKNOWN: Another issue I would like you to explain to us is that you said he's disabled, he's got seizures.  Have you ... (inaudible - end of Side B, Tape 2)

UNKNOWN: Could you tell me a little bit more about the time when Zenzele was shot - was injured and killed.  Was there an inquest?

WITNESS:   No, there was no such an inquest.

UNKNOWN: (Inaudible) ... no examination, no reason as to how he died and who killed him?

WITNESS:   I used to go to court and find out, but they said to me - they kept on saying I must just go back, and come back, go back, until I eventually gave up.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: I would like to know about these soldiers.  Are there some you would recognise among them, and that you even know their names?

WITNESS:   The soldiers I don't know because they were white soldiers.  The soldiers I do not know.  They were white soldiers who came on the 19th.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Mama, we know it's very painful.  We thank you for coming in front of this Commission and relate this.

KHOZA MGOJO: Mama Ngcobo, I heard you saying there was an organisation that your son was being persuaded to join.  That is the KwaZulu organisation?

WITNESS:   The ZP people wanted him to join the ZP, the police.

KHOZA MGOJO: Are you referring to the police when you say an organisation?

WITNESS:   Yes.

KHOZA MGOJO: And this Ngcobo's boys, how were they related to the ZPs?   It would seem you were being harassed by two organisations.

WITNESS:   The ZP were looking for the guns to shoot us.  I think they are the ones who went to request the ZP to assist them because they didn't like Zenzele, but they had grown up together with Zenzele.

KHOZA MGOJO: Mama Ngcobo, we thank you very much for coming.  I have been repeating this over and again to say that we empathise with you.  We request in God that He may heal your wounds and your pains through His ointment, and bandage your wounds that you have got.  This Commission it has powers, but it hasn't got all the powers.  We'll try to achieve your request.  We'll think God will empathise with you.  Thank you very much.

DR BORAINE: Ms Nakedi, thank you very much for coming today.  You've come from a long way, and you must feel quite strange, but you are not a stranger here.  You are amongst friends, and we are very, very glad to welcome you, and we hope you will feel quite comfortable in telling a grim story about the death of your brother, Johannes.

DIMAKATSO NAKEDI: (Sworn, States)

DR BORAINE: Please be seated.  Mrs Nakedi, we're going to ask Mrs Gcabashe to help you to tell your story, and I hope you will feel very relaxed and at ease as you start.  Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Good morning.

WITNESS:   Yes, Good morning.

UNKNOWN: Can you please tell us briefly about what happened until your brother lost his life, and I would like you to tell us briefly do you have parents, why are you here, why are they not representing their son today?

WITNESS:   My parents are still alive, both of them, but they are sick.  That is why they didn't come.  They sent me on their behalf.  My brother has been sought by police for quite some time.  He went to Gauteng and he stayed there for a while.  We heard that he had a clash with one of the police, and they were engaged in a fight.  The police arrived and they shot him, and they just missed his friend.  We went to the hospital after receiving the news that he has been shot, and then we went to the police station and we found him there at the mortuary.  We wanted his clothes.  His clothes were wet.  We didn't know actually what happened.

UNKNOWN: Take your time.  Relax.  We will wait for you.  We know it's so painful, because the memories are now coming.

WITNESS:   While busy arranging for the funeral the police came in and out, day and night.  They would come during the day to tell us to fill the forms.  They restricted the funeral to only 200 people, and that the funeral should take place during the week, not the weekend, and they said, "If you don't agree with this we are going to disrupt the funeral, we are going to shoot at the people."  We went through that week and we decided to bury him on Monday.  It was a holiday, and we didn't bury him on that weekend.  On Sunday my parents went to fetch the body.  When they arrived at the mortuary the police didn't allow them to take the body.  They arrived late on that day with the body.  During the proceedings of the funeral, on our way to the church, the police arrived and they started shooting at the people.  They even arrested the ministers who were supposed to conduct the sermon.

UNKNOWN: Take your time.  We feel the same pain.