Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MS NHLAYASI: Mnaheng section is also known as William Dingaan section.  Is that correct?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYASI: Who was your commander at the time when you joined?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Mathula Mtabela.

MS NHLAYASI: There's an incident ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Mathula Mtabela.  Mathula Mtabela.

MS NHLAYASI: You've indicated in your application form that you're applying for amnesty for the murder of one Thabiso, whose surname you do not know.  Can you briefly tell us, when did this incident occur, can you remember?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: It was in August.

MS NHLAYASI: Of which year?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: 1993.

MS NHLAYASI: Can you briefly tell this Commission what happened, as far as you were involved in this incident?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes.  On that particular day we moved from Mathula's home to Thabiso's home, and he was standing outside next to the kitchen.  Mathula asked her, Mathula questioned him as to why did he led to our arrest.

MS NHLAYASI: What was the reason for you going to Thabiso's place in the first place?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: We went there to kill him.

MS NHLAYISI: What was the reason for you wanting to kill him?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Because he was an informant.

MS NHLAYISI: You had information that he was a police informer, so that's why you went there to kill him.  Is that correct?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes.

MS NHLAYISI: How did you get this information?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: We were suspecting him because he would be seen standing with the police and the soldiers.  And one day there was this community meeting.  His father came to the meeting.  I don't know what had happened in his house.  He requested the community not to associate his activities with his family.  That is when we discovered that even his family knows that he is, he was collaborating with the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Did, at that meeting, did you see that as an admission, when he said his activities should not be attributed to those of his family?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes.  Our suspicions were confirmed.

MS NHLAYISI: The decision to kill Thabiso, where was it taken?  Was it taken at the very meeting where his father was present, or was it taken at a later stage?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: That was taken after some time after the meeting.

MS NHLAYISI: Was the meeting convened for this purpose, where this issue about Thabiso being an informer was discussed?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Will you please repeat your question.

MS NHLAYISI: You're saying that a decision that Thabiso should be killed was not taken at the meeting where his father was present.  My question is, was there another meeting convened at a later stage, where this decision was taken, or what was the position?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes, there was another meeting.

MS NHLAYISI: Was it still the meeting of the community, or which people convened this particular meeting where this decision was taken?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: It was not a community meeting, but it was just an SDU meeting.

MS NHLAYISI: So you were given orders to be one of those people who were going to take part in the killing.  Is that correct?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Which section of Tokoza was the SDU to which you were attached?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: That is Maheng section in Katlehong.

CHAIRPERSON: Maheng?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Monaheng.  M O N A H A N G.

MS NHLAYISI: With who were you supposed to go and carry out this particular order?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: With Mathula Mtabela.

MS NHLAYISI: Who was also your commander at that stage?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Okay, tell us what happened after you have arrived at Thabiso's parental home?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) it this way.  Were you armed?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes, I was.

CHAIRPERSON: What with?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: A pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say your commander spoke to him there when he was standing in front of his house?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: After they spoke, what happened?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: When he started questioning him he ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: He went to the house, he ran to the house.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: We went, we followed him to the house.

CHAIRPERSON: And?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Mathula went to the bedroom.  He was inside the bedroom and he closed the door.  Mathula pushed the door to the bedroom and tried to put in the firearm and Thabiso grabbed this firearm and they went out of the bedroom struggling with this firearm.  And I shot Thabiso at his back.

CHAIRPERSON: From where?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: I was at the door, in the kitchen.  They were out of the bedroom now and they were in the kitchen now.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about the door leading to outside?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes, he passed away.  He died.

MS NHLAYISI: Thank you Mr Chair.  After you have fired that shot, what did you do next?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: When he was already lying on the floor Mathula shot at him also and we left the house.

MS NHLAYISI: What happened to the firearm that you had on that particular day?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: I handed it over to Mathula.

MS NHLAYISI: As a member of the SDU in Monahang section, did you usually go on patrols?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Were there any occasions where you carried a firearm, except this particular day where Thabiso was killed?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What was wrong with being an informer those days?  What did you find wrong with that?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Because he was, the information was leaking through him about our activities as we were fighting in the township, so he would forward the information to the people., to the police.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was wrong with telling the police, as far as you were concerned?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: The police would arrest us and if we were about to execute a certain operation we would find the police there, knowing everything about the operation.

CHAIRPERSON: And the operation would be of a political nature?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes, patrolling, and protecting ourselves.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where you were born?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes, I know.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: In Natalspruit Hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS NHLAYISI: Thank you.  Ms Barnabus, on the day when you went to Thabiso's parental home, can you remember whether any doors, or any property, was broken in the process?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: What I can remember is the window panes.  I heard the sound of the breaking of the window panes.

MS NHLAYISI: At what stage did you hear the sound of breaking window panes?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: When Mathula was inserting the firearm through the bedroom door.

MS NHLAYISI: So the breaking of the windows was caused by a shot from that firearm?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI: I asked you whether you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Did you associate yourself with the breaking of that window?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: At the time I hadn't fired a shot when the windows were broken.

CHAIRPERSON: No I know but, did you agree with what your commander was doing in an attempt to execute your operation?  It seems that was the only way he could get hold of Thabiso.

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: Yes, I agreed with that.

MS NHLAYISI: Is that the only incident, wherein you were involved where somebody was killed?  Are there no other incidents where people were injured and you were involved?

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS: No, there is no other incident.