Special Hearings — Women's Hearings — 1997-07-29

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you Mama.

LEPHINA ZODWA THOBELA: My request to the TRC.  I want to know as to who killed my children, who actually threw the grenades, because when I went to the amnesty in Pretoria I heard somebody speaking that on the day or the night of the night vigil, that is Sonto's night vigil, I heard that Mamasela was present and I wish to see Mamasela, because I want him to tell me as to why he was present during that day and they are pointing accusing fingers to different directions and I request the TRC to facilitate that I meet Mamasela.  Maybe if he wants to ask for forgiveness, but I want to know as to who killed my family.  I want to sit down with Mamasela.  I want him to explain as to what he was doing at the night vigil, because he was not a friend nor a relative.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you Mama.  Mama, I am going to just ask you a few questions.  Firstly, your daughters, were they also members of a political organisation?

LEPHINA ZODWA THOBELA: Yes, they were members of COSAS.

YASMINE SOOKA: They were both members of COSAS?

LEPHINA ZODWA THOBELA: Yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: Did you ever see your son who went into exile again?

LEPHINA ZODWA THOBELA: Yes, he is in Pretoria.  He is working.  He came back in 1991.

YASMINE SOOKA: And how long was the period between when your daughters died and the time your husband came out of jail, out of hospital?

LEPHINA ZODWA THOBELA: Sonto died at the scene of the crime.  My husband was released in 1987, April, but I do not remember the date.  It was in 1987.  That is ever since he was arrested in 1985.

YASMINE SOOKA: So, it is almost two years.

LEPHINA ZODWA THOBELA: Yes, almost two years.

YASMINE SOOKA: And you managed to keep on working?

LEPHINA ZODWA THOBELA: Yes, I lost my job, because we were labelled as terrorists and at work I was called a terrorist.  That is how I lost my job.  That was in 1987 after my husband had come.  The following week I lost my job.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mama, the, you also mention that you heard that Mamasela was present at Sonto's night vigil.  Where did you, you say you heard it at an amnesty hearing.

LEPHINA ZODWA THOBELA: Yes, I heard it from the amnesty, that is from Philip Lukela in Pretoria.  He is one of the victims who survived from the hand grenade attack.  He was also at the night vigil and he testified in Pretoria that Mamasela came and he took them out together with Valley to Freedom Square where they were to discuss certain things.  I heard it in, during the amnesty hearings in Pretoria.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mama, there, you also mention in your statement that when the police came to see you at home and they wanted a photograph of your son, that there was a Black policeman with the security branch.  Do you know his name?

LEPHINA ZODWA THOBELA: Yes, I do know the policeman, but he has since died.  His name was Templeton Sibaka.  He was my neighbour.  He also terrorised and harassed us and he use to tell me that he was going to kill me.  And at times I would challenge him to kill him at that particular moment.  That was before the bombing.  And he is the one who came to us as to what time it was when the attack took place.  Just before my husband answered him he said it was one o' clock and I have got some witnesses.  A certain girl from the Transkei who had come in a taxi and they had come to deliver her at her place.  That is, she was my neighbour's child.  She said that the very same combi, that is the E20 from Springs, was driving in front of them and the combi proceeded towards the church and as she was getting off at her place, when she was calling out to her mother to open up for her, she saw a man wearing a police coat getting out of the car during the night of the attack.  And she is the one who woke up the other neighbours  to come and quell the fire and she appeared in court.  We went to the inquest twice.
 There was a policeman who was accused number one who said that during the detention of my husband that he was going to kill my husband together with his children.  And my husband submitted a statement to Priscilla Jana.  That was in February when he said that and I was at court with this person during the inquest and my husband was in detention at that time.  When we went back for the second time the Magistrate took out some papers and said he was sending the papers to the Attorney-General.  He put them in the, inside an envelope.  He sent them off and three months lapsed without me getting any feedback until I had to go to Priscilla Jana to try and find out as to what the response of the Attorney-General was.
 And I came across Hanief at the office.  I could not speak to Priscilla Jana and they said the matte was being investigated.  And I asked as to who the investigator was, because the policeman who had killed my husband, who was going to investigate that policeman.  This disturbs me, because I want to know as to who killed my family and my soul will never rest.  I will never be at peace with myself if I do not know as to who killed my family.  We had come to get use to the harassment by the police, but I do not believe that they had to go to an extent of killing members of my family.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mama, at the time when the Magistrate at the Inquest Court told you he was sending the documents to the  Attorney-General, did he tell you at that hearing whether he found anybody responsible for what had happened?

LEPHINA ZODWA THOBELA: No, he never addressed me in that respect.  He just said he was sending the documents to the Attorney-General.

YASMINE SOOKA: In the years that have passed since then you have heard nothing?

LEPHINA ZODWA THOBELA: Absolutely nothing.

YASMINE SOOKA: How old were your daughters at the time?

LEPHINA ZODWA THOBELA: Sonto was 21 years old and Zanelie was 19 years old.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mama, there, were these Duduza matters, besides Joe Mamasela, there has been sometimes stories that there was another man in Duduza as well, who was responsible, but people seem quite scared of naming him.  Do you know of this person?

LEPHINA ZODWA THOBELA: That is a very difficult question, because I always do not want to mention that name, because the people do not come to me, but when they have a conflict or an argument amongst themselves they keep on doing some name dropping and they point fingers at each other, that you got Zanelie and Sonto killed.  And there is a person whose identity is being hidden.  As a result I am not satisfied, because Valley did allude to the fact that my Mamasela had come to bring some arms and ammunition.  And Valley was the Chairman of the COSAS at that time.  At the funeral, that is Sonto's funeral, he was the MC.  We are not getting any truth from these people and I would like the Truth Commission to investigate the matter further, because I believe they should speak the truth.  Where did the grenade come from?

YASMINE SOOKA: I think you know that there has been one set of amnesty hearings, but there probably will be more and so, perhaps, when this whole matter is over, we will be able to give you some story of what actually did happen and who was responsible, but the matter is still being investigated, but if there is anything that you feel you can share with us perhaps not here in this hearing, but separately, I would appreciate hearing that, because we are also interested in getting to the full truth.  I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Joyce Seroke.

MS SEROKE: Mrs Thobela, this is a painful story that you have just related to us.  What I would like to know is that you have moved from that house and you have gone to another house.  How is life now besides the bad memories of the atrocities of the past?  Just your social life or life in general.