Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-10

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Thank you Chairperson.  I would start by referring you to the response that was given by Deputy President Mbeki at the last hearing where he said he rejected issues such as that the real problem is a political problem of intolerance etc, etc.  And dealing with that and the background he made the point that throughout all this clearly somebody was interested that the idea of working together between these two forces does not materialise.  And I think that's the central problem.  The central problem, you've got reports of Operation Marion tendered up in a court case, acquittal, and yet Operation Marion was there, it was a reality.  You had the Kwamakutha Massacre, people charged for it as part of Operation Marion, yet we know unmistakably now that that massacre was not the UDF, but it was portrayed as UDF.  So clearly, clearly there is a problem there.  Who gained and gains still from that violence?
 Deputy President Mbeki in his response also referred to the experiences about Shoshabane, post '94, we now have the experience of Richmond itself, still the question is, who gains from that violence?
 And we are clear Chairperson that with the change to a democratic government, from the point of view of the networks that were created by the security forces for all forms of its covert operations these forces remain extant within our society, in different places within the straight structure, in the private sector, across the board.  Some of them are continuing as if they have been saints throughout their lives.  So that's a major problem.
 And we have requested that one of the key benefits that the TRC could do for this country is to help us unearth that entire national security management system, root and branch, from our society.  Identify them where they exist and help us, not from the perspective of simply punishing them, but in the context of our commitment to reconciliation and truth, to ensure that by their identification we have a minimum hold that they are not going to continue with that activity.
 So that's an enterprise that we have to share and everybody should share it, not just the TRC, not just the government, but political parties, community organisations, we should all share that enterprise and commitment because the object of this exercise is not 
just to punish people but to root out that problem.  
 So it's in that context we come to the questions raised about Siphiso Nkabinda. I am not sure that we have any background pre-'90 with regards to Siphiso.  As far as I can recall he rose to prominence suddenly post-'90, and for a period was at least secretary for the Midlands region, for a period of possibly two years.   What I can say simply here Chairperson is that insofar as we came across evidence that he was working with the police we became aware of that before the National Working Committee and the NEC took the decision to say that he's no longer a bona fide member of the ANC and to announce that publicly.  Before that efforts were made to discuss with him, often I believe on a one-to-one basis so that our general approach to those who worked with the enemy forces could be implemented in rehabilitating people.  It didn't work with him.  And we reached the point where a special committee looked at the evidence and provided a processed report to the National Working Committee and the NEC.  On the basis of that we decided to go public on the matter.
 So we are satisfied with that evidence.  We think you should call him, because it's no good reducing the TRC to a court of law, one of your strengths is without subjecting the individuals to the processes that they go through a court of law, you create the conditions for them to speak freely and to gain the protection of amnesty processes by coming clean and committing themselves to reconciliation.  
 So we think you should get him to come before you, explain his role, certainly he would have been associated with the SDU's, would have had a link in the Midlands and certainly it would mean, just as many SDU's or at least some of them like the Polla Park were subverted by the regime we may find that in the Midlands SDU's were subverted and put in a different path.  So that the violence portrayed as IFP-ANC was perpetuated and so that the forces working for peace kept on being diverted, because every time there is killing tension grows, like right now, tension grows and any effort by stabilisation for us to reach out and say now let's put that past aside, let's unite everybody, let's accept that people on the ground, on both sides may have been carried away, forget the past, let's work together for development and peace, once the killings take place emotions run high on all sides and the efforts we make politically to bring unity are delayed and defeated that way.
 So I would plead, and I think we would all agree that we would support that the TRC considers subpoenaing Siphiso Nkabinda and others who are with him.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Could I just have a short follow-up here.  I know Mr Goosen you have a train of thought here and I don't want to cut across it, but directly in response to this, and it's probably partly
outside of our mandate but reconciliation should never be outside of our thoughts, so that's my only excuse, numerous attempts have been made, genuine attempts from both the IFP and the ANC side, right now there is a peace accord which they are trying to develop and I am sure everybody is hoping against hope that it succeeds, I think what disturbs us on this panel is not only now, but these attempts have been made from the President, from the Deputy President, from yourselves, from Minister Buthelezi and his leadership and so on, despite all of that the killing goes on.  Is there any way either the TRC, yourselves, the IFP, could do something in relation now to the period within our mandate if you like, but it spills over, to try and - put it this way - it's clear it would seem to me, that despite the attempts of leadership level on the ground people take the law into their own hands and it's extraordinarily difficult for everybody, including the police it seems, to quell that.  Do you want to comment on that in any way?