Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1992-05-12

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I don't think we can answer the question - I am saying on the day when I recollected the events I thought I acted in a manner which is justified.  The objective evidence however shows that clearly the guards shot longer than what we thought we shot or maybe I gave the order much - took too long to give the order, whatever, one of the two of that but it's very clear that we shot longer than we were supposed to shoot.  I accept that that's - the objectives actually prove that and I accede to that.

MR VAN WYK: There is a history since 1994 in respect of your co-operation with the police and the investigation that there was several non-disclosures, do you concede that?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I refused to disclose names of my colleagues.

MR VAN WYK: So you concede that?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I've conceded that earlier.

CHAIRPERSON: That already.

MR VAN WYK: There were also certain untruths that you told either in your affidavits or at the inquest, do you concede that?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I withheld names of people, I concede to that.

MR VAN WYK: Do you concede that you were also under certain wrong impressions because your version was rebutted by objective evidence, do you concede that?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I concede that my recollection is not a true reflection of what happened on that day.

MR VAN WYK: And you only made the concessions when the specific evidence was tendered, is that correct?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: As I said yesterday if I did not see the ballistic evidence I would still believe what happened on that day, my version was correct.

MR VAN WYK: Now the AK47 magazine contain 30 rounds, you concede that?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I concede that.

MR VAN WYK: Did you see Mr Khumalo exchanging his magazine at the south western corner of Shell House when he fired?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I did not.

MR VAN WYK: Is it your case that he did not exchange magazines?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I don't recollect him changing magazines.

MR VAN WYK: So if you didn't see it, you can't deny it, is that your answer?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I don't know if it happened.

MR VAN WYK: I'm sorry, I couldn't hear?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I don't know if it happened, I don't think it happened but I don't it happened.

MR VAN WYK: You don't think it happened - is it a denial that it happened or is it merely an impression today, Mr Kruser?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: My recollection on that day is that he never changed the magazine.  What is clear to me that my recollection could not be one hundred percent correct, so I can't admit or deny that he changed it, he would know better I think.

MR VAN WYK: Mr Chairman, thank you.  Why I'm referring you to this question, Mr Kruser, just shortly I want to refer you to the inquest record at page 2752 where your evidence was the following - it was a question by the court "Yes he also told me that there were, I cannot remember exactly, there were bursts of automatic fire from this person with the weapon and he saw - it seemed to him the man was changing the magazine, putting a new magazine and then fired on single fire."  That was question.  Your reply "That is not possible, is was present with the person with the AK my lord, it did not happen, my lord."   I'm sorry, are you changing your version?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I'm changing my version I'm saying what I saw on that day, that's my recollection, that's how I remember it.  I'm saying there's objective evidence clearly to me that all my recollections is not the same as it happened so I accept maybe it didn't happen that way but on that given day and the time I testified, that's how I remember it.

MR VAN WYK: On that day you testified, is that reference to last year?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That is correct.

MR VAN WYK: Why I'm asking you this is that I want to put it to you that your version is false and it's not correct because the ballistic evidence in the combined report was that there were at least 35 marks on the buildings which was compatible with the AK47 and which probably came from the south western corner - now that is more than one magazine, would you agree with that?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: If the ballistics says that then it's true.

MR VAN WYK: I've no further questions, thank you Mr Kruser.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN WYK

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: Mr Chairman, I still have a few questions to ask this witness.  As it pleases the Chairman.
	Mr Kruser, in your evidence you are referring to destruction and devastation that took place at the hands of IFP members in Boiphatong.  It is clear from your evidence that you felt very badly hurt about what happened there, is that correct?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I think any human being who sees women, children and people maimed and killed in that manner would feel very distressed about it.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: How did you in particular feel about the IFP and it's members at that point in time did you regard them as your enemy?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: The IFP is a - has been a rival organisation of the ANC, I don't think they were enemies, they were a rival organisation of the ANC.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: But personally, how did you feel driving through Boiphatong?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: As I said, doesn't matter who killed those people, I felt distress that human life could be taken so cheaply.  It's not about who killed them, the fact that human life was taken so cheaply I think that was the point, who killed them was not the issue that day.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: Did you follow the newspaper reports after that incident regarding that specific incident?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I read newspapers quite diligently but I don't remember - I'm sure I read the paper.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: Do you recall that it was said by I believe also your party that the police or other forces were involved in the planning and executing of the attack?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I don't recall the newspaper - I recall reading intelligence reports to that effect, yes.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: Did you believe that?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I had no reason not to believe it.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: In your evidence you're also referring to a specific attack that took place on you whilst visiting the rural areas in Natal.  Were you attacked by IFP members?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: It was in the early nineties, Mr Chairman, I was - one of my responsibilities was the protection of our president and when we went to big rallies at dangerous areas I would go and prepare the visit.  We were in an area called Ensilini which was known as a no go area for the ANC and Winnie Mandela, the late Chris Hani, the late Harry Gwala all tried to visit that area and were refused access to that area by the IFP.  Our president insisted in visiting that area and I was given instructions to prepare the visit.  We armed ourselves with AKs and other assortments of weapons and went into the area to plan the ...[inaudible].  While the president was visiting houses which was burned down by IFP members, gunshots started emanating from the hills of the area and we had to evacuate the area.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: Are there any other incidents where you specifically was attacked by members of the IFP?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Not me, but I know of many members of our party who were attacked.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: And how did you feel about that?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: As I said earlier, I think human life injury to people is not about parties it's about humanity I think and that's the issue for me here.

MS VAN HUYSTEEN: Now shortly before the so called Shell House incident there was a report published in the newspapers and which was actually attached to the bundle of documents submitted by your legal representatives which deals with the so called unveiling of the third force activities.  Are you aware of that, have you seen that newspaper report?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I don't exactly recall it but I'm aware of the Goldstone Commission report on the third force activities.