Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-08-24

ENOCK TSHABALALA: I can say it was, most of it, the truth but it might happen that there are some problems because of communication breakdown as I didn't understand some of the terms in English.
	But I hope that most of the information in that statement, is true.

CHAIRPERSON: In that statement that was taken by Mr Jordaan, you state that on your way to Qala the kombi stopped at a general dealer shop where Norma Shosha went in to make enquiries.  did that happen?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: I made a mistake there.  It is Dandala who alighted from the vehicle, not Norma Shosha.

CHAIRPERSON: But did Dandala go to a general dealer or did he to a police station?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: Because I didn't know this place, whether it was a police station or it was something else, but it was just a complex.  It was just a complex.

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge is the police station in Qala within a shopping complex?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: It looked like a complex, but I - at the same time I was not sure if there was a police station in there.

CHAIRPERSON: In that statement you also say that after Norma Shosha returned to the motor vehicle, you then left.  Shortly after you had left for Qala, you saw a motor vehicle which fitted the description which Norma Shosha had given to you as being the motor vehicle that the deceased was using on that day?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: As I have already said, it is Dandala who came with that information about the description of the deceased's car.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand that, but what I want to find out is, you say you then, as you were driving towards Qala you saw this motor vehicle which fit the description which had been given to you either by Dandala as you now say.  Did that happen?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You then say you followed this motor vehicle until it came to a stop and a man alighted from the car, who was identified by Norma Shosha as being the deceased.  Did that happen?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: When we left that place that looked like a police station or a shopping complex, on our way we saw this car getting into a certain yard.
	When we saw it, we followed the car but the driver was not in the car on getting to that house.  Dandala went into the house and asked for the driver of the car.

CHAIRPERSON: What I want to find out is what you say in your statement, was in your statement, you say that the driver of the car alighted from the car and Norma Shosha identified this person as being Batandwa Ndondo?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: Yes, on our way just before the vehicle could stop, Norma Shosha identified him before alighting from the vehicle, but we were not sure, we had to come closer to him.
	When he came out of the house with Dandala, it is when Norma Shosha became certain that this was the man.

INTERPRETER: It looks like the witness is listening to channel 2 instead of channel 3.

CHAIRPERSON: In your statement you go on to say that Captain Moss called the deceased who was at that stage on the yard of a particular house.

ENOCK TSHABALALA: He didn't call him, it is only Dandala who got into the house and brought him to the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know how that then got into your statement?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: Maybe it was his mistake, because I explained to him that Moss was still in the car, he remained in the car.  It is only Dandala who alighted from the vehicle and went straight into the house and brought the gentleman with him.

CHAIRPERSON: You testified that at the end of September 1985 I think it is, you left for Vlakplaas.

ENOCK TSHABALALA: Will you please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: You testified that at the end of September 1985, you returned to Vlakplaas?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: Though I can't remember the date, but at the end of that month we returned to Vlakplaas.  I can't remember whether it was mid-month or at the end of that month, but we went back to Vlakplaas.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever return to Transkei to help this Transkei Security Police in their work?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: No, I never returned back to Transkei.  I never returned to Transkei.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, after your return to Vlakplaas, did you continue with your duties as an Askari in Vlakplaas?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: Yes, I continued with my duties.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry Chairperson, I don't think the interpretation was correct.  Can you ask the applicant to repeat his answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat your answer.

ENOCK TSHABALALA: When I went back to Vlakplaas, we continued with our duties as usual.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you returned to Vlakplaas, you continued with your normal duties as an Askari in Vlakplaas?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: Yes, I continued with my duties.

CHAIRPERSON: Up to the stage when the deceased went through the window, he had not yet been told that he was being arrested?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: Yes, he was not yet told, but Dandala identified himself as a policeman.

CHAIRPERSON: All that had happened prior to the deceased going through the window, was that Dandala had identified himself as a member of the Police Force?

ENOCK TSHABALALA: After he had identified himself as a policeman, he greeted Norma Shosha and he recognised him because they were together outside, then he was surprised.  He was shocked, I think that is when he decided to jump through the window.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Is there anything arising Mr Knight?

MR KNIGHT: No questions Mr Chairman.

MR KNIGHT: .

MR DILIZO: I have no questions thank you.

MR DILIZO: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dukada?

MR DUKADA: I have no questions Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DUKADA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Majokweni?

MR MAJOKWENI: I have no facility, but I have no questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAJOKWENI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wessels?

MR WESSELS: No questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS

CHAIRPERSON: You have no questions.  Thank you very much.  I beg your pardon, Mr Hugo?

MR HUGO: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Tshabalala, please return to your seat, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED