Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-17

MR LAX: I think we are confusing two different issues here.  The fact that he suspected the guy was trying to take something, is one thing, but he very clearly said that the person was trying to touch him.  He said he didn't have his arm outstretched, now that could be a question of interpretation.
	If I stretch my arm out, it doesn't mean I am necessarily trying to grab something, and it wasn't followed up very carefully.  Frankly, if you want to clear it up, go ahead and clear it up, but don't put it to him on the basis that he didn't say that, or did say something else.

MR LEOPENG: Thank you for that clarification.  Mr Nkuna, what actually did the person who was trying to run after the deceased, do in trying to disarm the deceased?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: I don't understand the question because I explained that he was running in a fearful manner, but trying as if he was trying to grab the firearm.  I don't know what further you want me to explain on that point.

CHAIRPERSON: How was he running in such a way as to try and grab the firearm, is the question which is being put to you.

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: I said he was running quickly, like stinging, like showing that he wants to steal something from me.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether this is a question of a translation problem or these are words used by Mr Nkuna, which we cannot comprehend.  We have had words like he was running in a fearful manner, we now hear he was running in a stinging manner, I don't know.  Can we just clear that up.  What is the meaning of all these adjectives?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: I said he was running, but looking as if he wants to grab the firearm, so it looked like he was nervous and then withdrew.  I will say it might be difficult to explain because it is so difficult sometimes to explain things which happened so fast.
	What I am saying is, he was running, showing as if he was trying to grab the  firearm, but at the same time, showing some nervousness and withdrawing back.  Maybe he was afraid that Mathonsi will fight back, I don't know.
	And finally, he didn't manage to take the firearm and he withdrew.  That shows that he was nervous.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Leopeng, the ball is in your court.

MR LEOPENG: Thank you Madam Chair.  One other question in respect of this issue, did that person who was running after the deceased, come in contact with the body, the person of the deceased?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: They didn't come to contact.  As I explained, he looked nervous.

CHAIRPERSON: May I find out Mr Nkuna, at which stage did this person completely withdraw from running after Mr Mathonsi?  Are you in a position to elaborate on that?  He was pursuing Mr Mathonsi up to some stage, at which stage did he stop his pursuit?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: Mathonsi was running at the time, and he tried to follow him.  He ran back towards me, and then there was a second shot fired while I was struggling with these people, that was the time when they ran away.  I would like you to take into account that these things were happening very quickly.

CHAIRPERSON: No, we are fully cognisant of that.  We are very mindful of the fact that they were happening very quickly, and on that aspect, how long do you think the pursuance lasted, that is by allegedly Mr Mononi?  Was it a split of a second?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: I didn't count, but I would say it was quick.  He just went towards him, and quickly withdrew.  I can't be able to give the exact seconds.
	It could only be inferred from the actions what he did, as to how many seconds it could be.

CHAIRPERSON: But it was very quick as you say?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: Yes, it was very quick.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Leopeng.

MR LEOPENG: Thank you Madam Chair.  Mr Nkuna, why this evidence, let me specify, the evidence that after the shot went off and that you noticed someone running after the deceased, trying to grab, trying to disarm him, why was that part of evidence not tendered in court?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: I don't remember what exactly I said before the Supreme Court.  If I didn't put it on record, it means it wasn't required out of me to put it, because I did say everything that was necessary at the Supreme Court.

MR LEOPENG: This part of evidence was not tendered, that is what I am putting to you.

MR LAX: You can't say that Mr Leopeng.  All you can say is it doesn't appear from the summary in the judgement.  You certainly can't say that he didn't tender it and that is the difficulty we all have, we don't have the record here.

MR LEOPENG: Well, if the Judge did not include that in the judgement, then I leave the matter ...
	Mr Nkuna, according to your own memory, how many shots were fired during that day, on that day?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: Two times.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed on the point that has been mentioned by Mr Lax, have you read the judgement closely and what do you make of the statement that Mr Lax has just said, do you agree with that?  Do you agree with that statement, the one that has been made by Mr Lax if you have read the judgement closely, particularly, what do you say of a reference there which is being made by allegedly the evidence of Mr Nkuna about someone having stood next to the deceased, holding a shotgun and pointing that shotgun in the direction of the deceased, which appears on line 18 and 19, 19 and 20?
	There obviously was reference to someone having pointed a firearm in the direction of the deceased?

MR LEOPENG: Madam Chair, that is not in dispute.  What I say, the evidence, this portion of evidence that there was someone who ran after the deceased, trying to disarm him, that is not in the ...

CHAIRPERSON: Precisely.  What do you make of the evidence that was led there, that a shotgun was the weapon that was pointed at the deceased as it appears in line 20?  Are you still coming to that in the light of the evidence led by Mr Mononi that on that day he was armed with a Makarov pistol?

MR LEOPENG: Yes, I am still coming to that issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you better come to that point fast then.

MR LEOPENG: Mr Nkuna, you said in your evidence in chief, that there was someone who was armed with a firearm.  What kind of firearm was it?

CHAIRPERSON: Find out first Mr Leopeng, lay the basis for that conclusion you want out of him.  Did he see the kind of a firearm that was used by the person that he allegedly identified as Mr Mononi, that is the question you should ask.

MR LEOPENG: Mr Nkuna, did you identify the kind of weapon which was in possession of the person who pointed the deceased?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: Yes, I could identify it.  I said it was a  shotgun or a pump gun.

MR LEOPENG: So in your own words, a shotgun might be a pump gun?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: Shotgun and pump gun is one and the same firearm.

MR LEOPENG: Is a pistol also a shotgun?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: No, it is not.

MR LEOPENG: Thank you.   The person who was holding a firearm, you said it was a shotgun and which means it was not a pistol?  I put it to you that the applicant before this Committee, stated in his evidence in chief, that he was in possession of that specific day, of a Makarov pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: As him to comment.

MR LEOPENG: What do you say about that?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: I am saying that he was holding a shotgun.

MR LEOPENG: No further questions Madam Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LEOPENG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Leopeng.  Mr Lax, do you have any questions to put to Mr Nkuna?

MR LAX: No questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: Just one question, thank you Chairperson.
	Captain, did you hear anybody saying anything during the time that this shooting took place, and during this scuffle?

MBASIMA RICHARD NKUNA: Nobody talked, it was only action.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Bosman.  Mr Lax, would you like to put a question?