Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-12

MR WILLS: Yes, so we know from the court that the incident involving the two girls occurred on the 18th April 1988 and that was the last incident or crime that you committed in Mpumalanga, is that correct?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes it is.

MR WILLS: So and then after that date until your arrest you were never even in Mpumalanga for any length of time, is that correct?  You were in other areas?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes, I used to arrive late at night at home and leave at dawn.  I would come and leave at dawn.

MR WILLS: And you would never be involved in operations during those visits?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: No I didn't.  I used to come and see my parents and go back to Ulundi or Mkuzi.  That was the last time.

MR WILLS: So anything that occurred in Mpumalanga after the 18th April 1988, you could not have been involved in or you were not involved in?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes indeed, I wasn't part of it.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.  Ms Khampepe do you have any questions to ask the witness?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Just a few Chairperson, thank you.
	Mr Hlongwane, when Mr Mpshe was questioning you with regard to whether you were aware of the policy of the IFP in relation to the killing of women, you responded in the positive. 
You said you were aware of such a policy?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes I knew the policies but when it comes to war, there are no policies at war, of a war.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I don't understand you now.  Did you not say you were aware that the IFP had a policy of eliminating women?  I thought that was your evidence in response to Mr Mpshe's question?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: ...[inaudible]

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mpshe has questioned you whether you were aware whether the IFP had any policy towards the elimination of women?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes he did ask me and I answered by saying to myself I was Teleweni and that I did not interfere with that, I was just fighting.  That IFP must follow rules and whatsoever, it wasn't any of our business, we were just supposed to fight.  That is how I answered the question.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Well I didn't get your answer in that fashion but I'm glad you are now clearing that aspect for me because otherwise I would have been under the impression that your response was in the positive whereas it was an explanation of what you believed to be the situation and that you were not aware of such a policy.  So it is your evidence that you were not aware of any policy which was in existence with regard to the elimination of women?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes indeed, I wasn't part of politics I was just attacking.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now you were totally committed to promoting the interest of your organisation after you had been extensively indoctrinated by the IFP as well as the police when you were doing your training in Koeberg.  Indoctrination which made you to cultivate a deep-seated hatred for the UDF or the ANC?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes it is so.

SISI KHAMPEPE: In your indoctrination was it ever explained to you what were to happen to women in the event that you were in a state of war?  Was it explained to you that when you attacked your opponents in promoting the interests of your organisation, you were never to attack women.  Was that ever explained to you?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: What was explained to us is that everything that is under UDF must die.  So a video was played for us where Mr Thabeti's wife, woman has died and that person was a driver and our IFP followers, our female IFP females were killed by UDF people.  In that sense that gave me the impression that whether you are a girl or what, in order for an IFP to survive or to be successful, we must actually also torture because ANC will come back and actually take over and rule this country by torture or by terrorising.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So quite early in your career as an activist within your organisation you were aware that you could kill and torture women as a result of what you had seen during your training at Koeberg inter alia?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: In doing all this I had the support of the police and people who were in power at that time so that everything we did at that time we felt was right.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, my simple question is quite early at the inception of your career as an activist or I don't want to use the name hit squad, as an activist within your organisation, you were aware that you were encouraged not to draw any distinction when it came to the elimination of an opponent, be it a woman, be it a young or old woman, you couldn't draw a distinction, you were encouraged not to draw a distinction?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now let's come back to the incident which you have headed murder of UDF member, female spy and attempted murder and rape of another.  With that understanding in mind at paragraph 34 of your affidavit which is at page 145 you have stated that the reason why you went to see Zekele Nkethle on the day in question was to ask him what to do with the girls, I quote you: "since we had never killed women before".  Would you mind explaining to me why it was necessary for you to seek instructions when quite early in your career you were aware that you were encouraged to kill women.  Why was this an exceptional case?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I did go to Mr Nkethle for the reason that maybe he might have wanted to say something to them but that's not what he did.  That was the reason why I went to see Mr Nkethle.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But are you aware of the reason that you have penned down in writing?  You state that the reason was to ask him what he was to do with the girls since you had never killed women before, else though you were never aware that you had an indiscriminate authority to eliminate women?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes it's on the third last line of the page if you want to read it Mr Hlongwane, page 145, the third last line the sentence starts "my reason".

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: I see it.  I am trying to explain the reason to go there although it's not put down here was that Mr Zekele was respected in the organisation.  I thought that maybe he may have thought that these girls should instead be recruited to work for us.  It is also true that before the time, up until that time I had not as yet killed a female.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You've just stated in your evidence in chief that the reason why you went to Mr Nkethle was to get instructions as to what you were to do with the girls and you went on to state that you were told by Mr Nkethle that you were to teach these girls a lesson so that UDF girls are discouraged from their activity that the alleged UDF spies were involved in?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And you went on to state that it was left to your discretion to do what you deemed appropriate which would qualify for a lesson that would discourage other UDF people from spying?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: When you were initially approached by Mondli Duma, is he the one who advised you that the girls were looking suspicious?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: No, it was not Mondli.  I said it was Tolbert Nkethlamini.  Mondli used to work with me at the police force.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So when you were initially apprised of the presence of these young women what immediately came to your mind?  What did you think of doing about the situation?

ISRAEL HLONGWANE: What came to my mind was to go to the girls and talk to them.  Thereafter if I realised that there was a need to kill them I was surprised when they told me that they had been sent by somebody else.  That is why I went to Mr Nkethle.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And what was the objective of taking other people with you when you had to go and locate the girls?  You will recall that you took quite a number of people with you when you were locating these young women?