Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-24

MR SARDIWALLA: In your initial statement you referred to, as the Chairperson indicated, to 6 Inkatha members that were fatally shot.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

MR SARDIWALLA: You did not go beyond that in explaining that there were in fact children as well.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: This is what I heard.  I heard that they were IFP members.

MR SARDIWALLA: Is it correct that when you were asked more details in preparing the supplementary affidavit, that you went into detail relating to the incident itself and the children?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

MR MALAN: Mr Sardiwalla, just on your earlier question, when you asked about him not having explained that they were children, he said that he heard that they were IFP members, I think that's what you put to him and I think that was his response,  whereas was his evidence not that he heard on the radio that it was children and that he cried immediately when he heard that it was children.

MR SARDIWALLA: I accept that that was his evidence, but I am talking about at the point at which he prepared this statement.  The point I am trying to make is that it doesn't appear as though he'd applied his mind thoroughly  when he prepared this statement.

MR MALAN: But the answer was "I heard that they were IFP members", that's where you led him to now in re-examination.  Can you explain that, or can he explain that?

MR SARDIWALLA: Mr Zulu, can you just explain that aspect that a member of the Committee has raised relating to your recent, your last statement, that they were IFP members?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I stated that they were IFP members, because on the radio it was not mentioned that the children who died there were 5 years, or 6 years or 15 years.  For instance, one can become a member at the age of 15, of a political organisation.

MR SARDIWALLA: Thank you.  Since when have you ...(intervention).

MR MALAN: Just for clarity sake, on page 5 of your supplementary affidavit, paragraph 7, you say  "On the following day I heard over the radio that there were children in the vehicle and that 6 of the children were fatally shot and 15 injured in the ambush."  You're aware of that statement that you made?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I do remember.  You consider a 15 year old as a child because that person is still a minor.

MR MALAN: Yes.  Now paragraph 8 in your statement, you say you spontaneously felt regret, remorse and cried bitterly thereafter.  That was the following morning.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I was remorse, because the moment the radio said there were children, then I knew that there were small children, not an older adult.

MR MALAN: Not IFP members, but children.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I wouldn't deny this and also I wouldn't accept this because I was scared.  I would hear some of the things and some I wouldn't hear them.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Sardiwalla.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sardiwalla.

MR SARDIWALLA: Thank you.  On the question of the vehicle, the cream and the cream-white vehicle.  Now you made reference and I think you subsequently indicated that it was the cream-white vehicle that you were targeting.  Is that correct?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, that's correct.

MR SARDIWALLA: Now is it correct that it was the cream-white vehicle that you believed that Makeke used to drive?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, that's what we believed, that Makeke was the driver.

MR SARDIWALLA: And the vehicle that you had shot at, are you positive that it was in fact a cream-white vehicle with a canopy?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

MR SARDIWALLA: And there's no doubt that it wasn't a white vehicle?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No it wasn't a white bakkie.  The canopy was white but the bakkie was cream-white.

MR SARDIWALLA: The aspect of the conflict between the IFP and the ANC.  It appears that, and just for clarity purposes, it appears that you indicated that during or about 87, 88 there was conflict.  88, 89 people moved out to Edendale.  Did everybody move out or did some people remain?  I'm referring now specifically to ANC members.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: ANC members who fled were those who were well-known to the community and those who didn't have much property because the remaining ones didn't want to leave because they didn't know what they were going to do to their property.

MR SARDIWALLA: So were there many that actually remained, but relatively under cover or anonymously, as it were, but ANC members?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, there were those who remained.

MR SARDIWALLA: And were these members attacked from time to time, or there was no violence at all?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, they were attacked from time to time.

CHAIRPERSON: Even though it was not known that they were ANC members, they didn't hold themselves out as ANC members?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: They would be attacked and someone will go and tell others to which political organisation I was belonging to and they will come and attack me.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought I understood your evidence to be saying that people did not hold themselves out as ANC members, because they wanted to remain in the area.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, that's how I put it, but if one doesn't like to eat a certain thing, you cannot be forced to eat something you don't like and you will do that, but eventually you will tell people, but I don't like this, I don't like eating this.  It's the same thing if you're sitting among people, you will eventually reveal that I am not for this idea and they will realise that you are not one of them.

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage was there an ANC, in 1988, 1989?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, there were ANC members.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they call themselves ANC members, or did they belong to a particular organisation that was different from Inkatha?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: There were those who used to say they were IFP members whereas they were not in actual fact, because they were scared.

CHAIRPERSON: You are aware obviously that the ANC did not become an organisation as such until 1990.  Do you know to which political organisation people belonged to who were opposed to the IFP as an organisation?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, even though the ANC was not allowed to be present, there was another organisation which used to call itself...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and what was the name of the organisation?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I'm trying to recall the name, I have forgotten.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sardiwalla.

MR SARDIWALLA: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SARDIWALLA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sardiwalla.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you tell us, do you know whether Mr Saul Mkhize, Mr Khumbu Shangase and Mr Sishe Madlala are still alive?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I wouldn't be sure whether they are still alive or not, it has been a long time since we parted.

ADV DE JAGER: You haven't seen them since when?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: In 1994, that was the last time I saw them.

ADV DE JAGER: Ms Thabethe, they're implicated here.  Were they informed, or what's the position?  Couldn't they be traced?

MS THABETHE: We tried, Honourable Member of the Committee, to trace them, we couldn't.  We even made an announcement on the radio, but we couldn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sardiwalla.  Will this be the only witness you intend calling?

MR SARDIWALLA: Yes, Chairperson, this is the only witness I intend calling.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zulu, thank you for giving your testimony before this Committee, you may now step down.  Ms Thabethe, do you intend to call any witnesses on behalf of the objectors?  You had earlier on indicated that you intended to oppose the amnesty of Mr Zulu on behalf of the objectors.  If that is still your intention, how many witnesses do you propose calling?

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair, I would propose to call two witnesses, one who will give evidence with relation to the incident itself and one who will give evidence as to the political situation in the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed to call your witnesses.