Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-12-01

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Never.  I don't see people, for one to be able to use an RPG7, you must have been very trained in using RPG7.  It has optical sight.  Those optical sight, there was no way just an ordinary member or a person that you might have recruited inside the country, might have been able to use an RPG7.
	It needs only trained personnel, and not every trained personnel, only those who have been trained in the usage of RPG7's.

MR WILLS: Do you know why that - sorry before I go on to that, what other weapons were found in that incident?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: A couple of AK's and a lot of ammunition for AK's.

MR WILLS: Do you know why specifically those rocket launchers, what the purpose was for the procurement of those weapons?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: I was inundated by a lot of calls from our own trained cadres of MK, about the fact that they were being killed on a daily basis.
	There was a campaign from various elements.  The Bureau of Investigation was in Natal, which was responsible for intelligence gathering against our own people, was responsible for the killing of a lot of our own comrades in formerly kwaZulu Natal townships, that is why.

MR LAX: Sorry, before you go on, can you just repeat the instance that you refer to.  The Bureau of what, sorry?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Of Investigation, the BSI in kwaZulu Natal.

MR LAX: BSI?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes.

MR LAX: That was a kwaZulu institution, it wasn't a ...

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: kwaZulu, Institution of Intelligence within kwaZulu.

MR LAX: It was part of the kwaZulu police?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes, but not just an ordinary ZP that you see on the street, they were involved in intelligence gathering of the kwaZulu government police.
	The SADF, not necessarily an ordinary footsoldier of the SADF, but within the military intelligence of SADF then, they were involved in gathering.  I even learned about that when I was integrated into the army, sitting in the operation command in Natal Command, that whatever those people were talking about, the only thing that was a threat, it was just MK soldiers, and nothing else.
	Every time when they go into meetings, they read notes or information gathering from the ZP and from the SADF, it is just MK soldiers and nothing else.  They were part of the collection of information against us.
	The organised units that have been trained in Caprivi which is a foregone conclusion now, that they were actually mandated to go and kill some of our comrades.
	The special units within the Police, the intelligence unit within the police, I know for a fact one of the policemen in Pinetown had committed a lot of atrocities, they shot him up, they shot him.
	This is what all comrades were crying about.  We are faced with this situation.  We have suspended armed struggle, yes, we have said, you have suspended the armed struggle, but we had a right to self defence as members of MK as such.
	This is where we are of the idea that if in case we can get hold of this stuff, then we will not be on an offensive against the apartheid, but for those that will come to us, those that will try and assassinate our own comrades, they will get it at the end of the day, that is it.

MR WILLS: Are you, is it your evidence that you say that the purpose of the procurement of those two, the RPG7's was specifically for the use of trained MK persons, distinct from the SDU's?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: In self defence.   Yes, in the operations of self defence.

MR WILLS: In operations of self defence?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Can you just explain to the Committee, what your involvement was in relation to the procurement of that cache that was discovered by the police?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: In fact one of the members in the command, Mavivi Ngubezi as he is mentioned, came to us because of the same feeling that most of the comrades were crying, chaps can you do something, we know that probably you might have access to the weapons.
	Mavivi Ngubezi was a member of the Ordinance Unit when they were still operating from outside.  I was serving in the Service Unit in Swaziland.  I knew also he was also involved in ordinance, so he knew most of our staff was outside.
	We approached him, he came to us and then we told him, okay, we can assist you with a vehicle to do that, we can give you money for the petrol for the vehicle, to go and get these arms.
	He went with a vehicle to Mozambique, the car had a breakdown in Swaziland, he came back, they got the engine, fixed it, they went to Mozambique.  They procured the stuff in Mozambique.
	On their returning to the country, they were intercepted at the border, at Golela.  Subsequently to that, I was picked up at the ANC office, unlike what the media was saying.

MR WILLS: Which ANC office were you picked up at?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: The ANC office at the time was at Mgeni Road.

MR WILLS: In Durban?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: In Durban, yes.

MR WILLS: So, your evidence is to the effect that at no stage did you leave the country to go and pick those weapons up?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: No, never.  I don't know where they got it from.

MR WILLS: But your evidence is also that you were involved in the procurement of those weapons?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes, I agree.

MR WILLS: And that was done under your authority?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes.

MR WILLS: As far as you know, sorry, I will rephrase that, you have indicated in your memorandum, that you yourself, are not applying for amnesty in respect of any gross human violations which you personally committed?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: No.

MR WILLS: I have a note here that there was a government gazette for the record, where you were granted amnesty on the 22nd of March 1991, under government notice 13130 at page 32 of that gazette.
	I trust that this is what you were informed about when Mrs Zama was handling your case?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: That is right.

CHAIRPERSON: That would be indemnity rather than amnesty.

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Indemnity.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just give that reference again?

MR WILLS: It is government gazette dated 22nd of March 1991, the gazette number is 13130, and it is at page 32.  I believe the document is being faxed through to the Committee or to the fax machine here.
	If the Committee will just bear with me.  After 1994, you served in the SANDF for a short while, and you are now employed in a private capacity?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Is that correct, you are no longer a member of the SANDF?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: No.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.  Mr Hewitt, do you have any questions to ask Mr Sithole?

MR HEWITT: Yes, I do Mr Chairman.  Have you got your application for amnesty before you?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Please have a look at page 26 and in particular ...

CHAIRPERSON: That is page 2 of the application form, if you don't have the bundle number.

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Which page 26?

CHAIRPERSON: Page 26, alternatively page 2 of the application form, the part that is filled in in your own handwriting.

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: The form?

MR LAX: It is page 2 of the application form.

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Forgive me, I have never worked in the office.  Page?

CHAIRPERSON: Page 2, the second page of the form.

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Okay.

MR HEWITT: You should see a lot of typed questions and handwritten answers, given to those questions.  Do you have that document before you?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: At the top it is part of a sentence which reads or any other former State or department/division, have you got the right page?

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes.

MR HEWITT: Have a look at paragraph 9(a)(i) please.

SIPHO JOEL SITHOLE: Yes.