Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1997-06-12

DERICK SKOSANA: (Still under oath).

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ... on Thursday the 12th June 1997.  We are proceeding with the application of Derick Skosana.  Mr Skosana you are still under oath.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Tee you were still busy with your questions.

ADV TEE: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Skosana, in your document that you presented yesterday from which you read paragraph 25 you state that the enemy agents, you had to get rid of them so as to clean up the organisation before the elections.  Do you confirm that?

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes, I do.  It is exactly as I have stated on my statement.

ADV TEE: Are you aware that in 1992 no date for the elections had yet been set?

DERICK SKOSANA: No, as I have stated that there was no date stated at that time, but the negotiations were in process, but there was no certain date stated.

ADV TEE: In paragraph 26 you say we were lying low.  Does that refer to you and Solly?

DERICK SKOSANA: That is correct.

ADV TEE: For what reason were you lying low?

DERICK SKOSANA: I am referring to myself and Solly.

ADV TEE: Yes and why were you lying low?

DERICK SKOSANA: We were hiding ourselves, me and Solly.

ADV TEE: No, Mr Skosana, I am asking you for what reason were you, Skosana, hiding yourself?

DERICK SKOSANA: As I have stated that we came to Nelspruit, we were running from the police.  That is why we were hiding ourselves.

ADV TEE: Did you not say yesterday that, in fact, Solly was running from the police?

DERICK SKOSANA: That is correct, but I was also assisting Solly so I could not expose myself, because it was going to jeopardise Solly's position.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Tee, can I just interrupt you.  Mr Skosana, you remember the evidence we gave in mitigation and it appears on page five, I think, alphabet C of his bundle, are you saying that you ran away when you were with Solly from Witbank and you both, you accompanied him and assisted him to run away from Witbank to Nelspruit?

DERICK SKOSANA: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you travelled together.

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now the evidence that we gave in mitigation, did you tell the truth before the court then, because according to the evidence you gave then you say that you met Solly and his friends from Soweto in Nelspruit.

DERICK SKOSANA: I would like to clarify.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

DERICK SKOSANA: The reason I said this in court, I had reasons.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you lie in court?  That is all that I wanted to find out.

DERICK SKOSANA: Sorry.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you lie in court when you said that you only met Solly ...

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... and his friends ...

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... in Nelspruit.

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Was there any reason for you to give that kind of evidence?

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Can you explain why?

DERICK SKOSANA: It was because when I was arrested, when I was arrested in 1992 the way the police treated my case I felt that they were biased against me, because a lot of things happened in connection with this case and police were insisting that me and Solly, we left Witbank for Nelspruit to do whatever we did.  The reason I said so in court, even though I pleaded guilty, I realised that police were nailing me and they were making me a main culprit on this.  I said this in court because I did not want the police to have that impression about me that I left Witbank with Solly, because after the police arrested me they tortured me and I gave evidence that I was with Solly and others when we did this and it took police a long time to arrest the co-accused and that is when I realised that the police were basically against me and the second thing is that in court they had a separation of trial and awe co-accused were given a free bail and I was given a R5 000,00 bail and after that we were separated.  All these things, to me, appeared as if I was the bad one or the police were treating me differently, because police insisted that I left Witbank to commit this crime and that is why I lied in court.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now, did, is it a fact that you were told by Solly that he, Solly, was going to approach Joe to assist him to skip the country?

DERICK SKOSANA: When I arrived at the squatter camp where I met Solly we discussed certain issues like we realised that it was dangerous for Solly to stay in this country, because we knew that if police found him they were going to kill him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But did Solly not tell you that he was going to approach Joe to assist him to skip the country?

DERICK SKOSANA: Solly worked with Joe before and they knew each other and it was Solly's idea that we should approach Joe.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, so it was not a decision which was taken by you and the other Comrades that Solly, Mr Nkuna, Joe Nkuna should be approached to assist Joe.  It was something that was suggested to you by Solly?

DERICK SKOSANA: I can say that it was something like that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And you would not know therefore, you cannot dispute that Solly without your knowledge might have approached Joe to assist him to skip the country before you even got to Joe's house?

DERICK SKOSANA: No, no, okay, even though I will not be quite sure, but this way or the situation he was in, Solly at that time, it was a terrible situation and I took it as if he just decided on that day when I met him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, what I am saying is you cannot dispute that there might be a possibility or their exists a possibility that Solly spoke to Joe directly without your knowledge?

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes, I will not dispute that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

ADV TEE: If you have a look at paragraph 28 of your document, is it not true to say that by late 1992 the external missions had been closed and the cadres had been repatriated and that recruitment had stopped.  So that, in fact, there would be no way that Joe could assist Solly to skip the country.

DERICK SKOSANA: Is it page 28, paragraph 28?

ADV TEE: Paragraph 28.

DERICK SKOSANA: The one starting with the following day?

ADV TEE: Yes, at 28, Mr Chair.  It is on page six of his statement.

DERICK SKOSANA: Would you please repeat your question.

ADV TEE: Is it not true to say that in, towards the end of 1992 the external missions had already been closed, that the cadres, many of them had been repatriated and that recruitment had already stopped so there would have been no way that Joe Nkuna could have helped Solly to skip the country?

DERICK SKOSANA: It is not true.  The recruitment process was still on and I would say people were training and people were being transformed, the guerrillas were being transformed and people were still training outside the country.

ADV TEE: Mr Skosana, could you look at paragraph 38 of your statement.  Do you see it?

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes.

ADV TEE: In the trial of the Nkuna brothers did you not testify that Solly had thrown one grenade and Conrad had thrown the other grenade?

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes, in my trial or in their trial?

ADV TEE: In their trial.

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes, that might be true, I might have said so in court, but what I am saying today is what happened.

ADV TEE: If you turn to ...

ADV DE JAGER: Well, could you kindly then explain why was it necessary for you to tell that untruth in the court?

DERICK SKOSANA: Sorry.

INTERPRETER: If the speaker can put, okay, thanks.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you kindly explain why it was necessary for you to tell this untruth to the court?

DERICK SKOSANA: Yes, I was angry at him.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, I do not understand.  What is the untruth?  Mr Tee.

ADV DE JAGER: That he, Conrad, that, he says in court the evidence was that Conrad threw one of the grenades, but that was not the truth.  Solly had thrown both the grenades.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is that what the record says Mr Tee.