Human Rights Violation Hearings — Klerksdorp — 1996-09-26

ANNIE K MOGAPI: The conflict between the two groups was because of freedom.  As I have mentioned they were fighting for freedom, which I did not understand, because we didn't know, because were not brought together as the residens of Tigane belonging to different groups, to be hold exactly what this
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
11 A K MOGAPI
freedom was. If we would have been brought together and a discussion was given to us about this freedom, maybe we could have avoided this conflict.  But after deaths, after burning of the houses, after injuries, we came to know what freedom was because we were then told that the fight was because of freedom, people were fighting for freedom.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me try and put the question in another way, Mrs Mogapi.   Were most of the people at that time, were they supporters of the ANC or of the IFP in Tigane?

ANNIE K MOGAPI: The followers at the time - can you please rephrase it, I do not understand it.

CHAIRPERSON: Were most of the supporters - sorry.  Were most of the people staying in Tigane, were they supporters of the ANC or the IFP?

ANNIE K MOGAPI: Most of them were the supporters of the ANC. It was a dominant party.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you were a member of the IFP.  When did the IFP come into Tigane?

ANNIE K MOGAPI: If I remember very well, it was in 1990.  Let me say 1991.  I only saw the emergence of this party because this boy said to me aunt, it is better to join this IFP. I said to him have we such a party here?  He said yes.  I said to him no, I am scared of joining this party, where are they.

CHAIRPERSON: (Speaker's mike not on) ... ... talking.  Remember we are here to listen to a story and if we keep on having laughter as she is talking, she may not want to speak as openly as she wants to.  So please, respect that process.  Sorry, Mrs Mogapi, can you carry on, please.

ANNIE K MOGAPI: And I said to him Jonas, I am scared of joining this. I said to him where is this party.  He said no, it is
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
12 A K MOGAPI
present in our township. Mr Mojake was the mayor of Tigane and I said to him Jonas, go, I don't want anything to do with this party, even if I read the newspapers, I get the shock of my life. He said it doesn't help because these people are threatening me, they are even intimidating me at school, I am on my own, and they come in a large group and the teacher cannot even stop them, because he is also afraid he would be killed. He said please, allow me to join a party of my choice, even I die, it is not your problem.

DR RANDERA: Thank you, Mrs Mogapi.

CHAIRPERSON: Anybody else? Tom?

THOMAS MANTHATA: Mrs Mogapi, when he joined the IFP, what was its activities?

ANNIE K MOGAPI: It was still a very quiet organisation, but after some time there was trouble, because the members of the IFP on the other side of the township, couldn't go to the south part of the township. Every time they want to walk free in the township, someone will be waiting for them to attack. Thereafter we saw people running along the streets with dangerous weapons.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I do not know whether I understand you well or not. My question was:  at that time what was the IFP doing? We are not yet at a point where we could say they were attacking or they were doing anything. We are here talking about the membership. What were they doing, their members.
The members of the UDF that have been here before you, clealry indicated that they were fighting against the high rents, they were fighting the oppressive education, they were fighting the councillors and they didn't want to buy in their shops, they were boycotting the shops.  That is what they were doing.  That is why I am asking you this question.  KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
13 A K MOGAPI
What was the IFP doing in the township?

ANNIE K MOGAPI: At times when they were meeting, they would go to attend such meetings.  They said to the people the people should pay their rent and the ANC people said no, no rent is going to be paid.  That was the situation.

THOMAS MANTHATA: When they were saying rent should be paid, were they satisfied with the tariffs?

ANNIE K MOGAPI: I think they were satisfied.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Let us go back to this person who was working at the military.  What was his main reason to join the IFP?  Was it because he was intimidated or he wanted to maintain his job?

ANNIE K MOGAPI: He was a full-time member of the force and he was told that he must not wear the soldier's uniform. He said to them if I have to join you, what am I going to eat, how am I going to support my mother.  They said to him your mother is going forfeit you one day.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mrs Mogapi, we have listened to the evidence that you gave and it has been said often before that the mandate instruction to this Commission is to  investigate incidents of human rights abuse that happened on all sides of the conflict in the country.  The Commission was not only formed to look at one side of the conflict.  It is good to hear your evidence, to hear some perspective also from the side of people who were involved with the Inkatha Freedom Party.  I have taken note of what you have said in regard to the present situation.  You seem to say that at present things have normalised in the community.  From all indications a very small community where it is one of those peculiarities of the past that you would have a bloody
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
14 A K MOGAPI
conflict, violent conflict tearing a small community like that apart.  Of course, it is one of the indictments of the old system that it turned people against one another and communities split, often not along natural lines but through contrived conflict.
 It is also often said that we should learn from these incidents and of course one of the lessons is that violence simply just leads to more violence and to even more violence. It has never really been a solution to any disagreement.  Of course, if we listen to this kind of conflict that you have spoken about, it again re-emphasises the challenge that we have to look and to work hard at the issue of reconciliation and bridging the gaps and the divides that existed.
 Thank you for coming. We have noted the evidence that you have given.  We have noted the fact that in regard to one incident there is still a pending court case.  I assume that in due course the Commission will learn of the outcome of that particular case.  Thank you for coming.

ANNIE K MOGAPI: I thank you, Sir.
KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG