Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-06

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa, how many times do you want the witness to repeat one and the same question?  He has made it clear that they got those guns from the old township in Zone 3, in fact they were loaned to them.

MR MADASA: What type of guns were they?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: They were AK47's, two.

MR MADASA: Who was the custodian of those?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: There was no one person who would take custody of those guns, they rotated.

MR MADASA: Where did you get ammunition from?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: When we wanted ammunition, we had to go back to the old township to ask for assistance.

MR MADASA: Were all the members of the Youth League at that time eligible to use the firearms?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Yes, they were eligible to use those guns according to the situation that existed in Kathlehong.

MR MADASA: Irrespective of age?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: The people who were given the arms, were above 16 years of age.

MR MADASA: When I asked you, why did you not say only those who were above 16?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Repeat your question sir.

MR MADASA: When I asked you if you were eligible to carry the guns, you said all, why did you not say only those who were above 16?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Maybe I did not catch your question well.

MR MADASA: Did you have an Executive?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Yes Chairperson, we were under area 5 at that time.

MR MADASA: Who were the members of the Executive?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Tulani, I do not know his surname.

MR MADASA: What was he in the Executive, Tulani?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: He was our Chairperson.

MR MADASA: Yes?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: The deceased Vips.

MR MADASA: What was he?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: He was the General Secretary of the Section.

MR MADASA: Yes?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Lucky.

MR MADASA: Lucky who?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I do not know his surname Chairperson, but he is present here.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you point him out to us please?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Over there.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your surname sir?

MR MAYA: Maya.  Maya is my surname sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Lucky Maya, thank you.

MR MADASA: What was Mr Maya?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: He was the Secretary for the religious affairs.

MR MADASA: Yes, carry on.

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Miele was present.

MR MADASA: What was he?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: He was an Educator.

MR MADASA: Who else?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I do not remember the others.

MR MADASA: Were you part of the Executive?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I became part of the Executive thereafter.  If I am right, it might be September or October.

MR MADASA: 1993?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

MR MADASA: What did you become?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I became the Publicity Secretary.

MR MADASA: When was this Executive formed?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I told you already that it might have been September or October, I do not have certainty to the dates because I lost some of my documents.

MR MADASA: You said you became the Publicity Secretary in September or October.

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

MR MADASA: I am asking the Executive as a whole, because you joined later in the Executive, when was it formed?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: The whole Executive was formed in March, towards the end of March.

MR MADASA: Why did you not become part?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I did not have interest at that time to be part.  I was satisfied as a person who was MRising them.

MR MADASA: Were you ever the Secretary General of the area?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

MR MADASA: In what organisation?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: SANCO, Civic.

MR MADASA: When you were member of SANCO, did you also become a member of the ANC Youth League at the same time?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MADASA: But in your evidence in chief, right at the beginning, you said no ANC Youth member was part of the Civic?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I said maybe we did not understand each other, I said because the Civic was the umbrella, everybody in the township submitted to the Civic.  I would not refuse when people elect me to that position, because of what I was doing.

MR MADASA: Were you elected to the position of ANC Youth League, even though you were part of the Civic?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

MR MADASA: Then why did you say no member of ANC Youth League was part of the Civic, if you are in fact so?

MR MALAN: Sorry Mr Madasa, he did say in the follow up question immediately, that he was a member of both.  He was a member of both the Civic and the ANC Youth League.

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.  Did you know Ndondolo?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I knew him a lot.

MR MADASA: Were you close to him?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Not that much because we were not politically cooperative.

MR MADASA: Did you know Mnyala?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Yes, I knew him as the Commander of Zone 5 then.

MR MADASA: Do you recall when Mnyala called a stay away?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Yes.

MR MADASA: Did you support that stay away?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I did not support that stay away as a member of the Civic, because I knew that they had no mandate of calling a stay away without reporting to us.

MR MADASA: When was that call made?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I do not remember the date very well, but I remember it was on Monday morning when people prepared to ...

MR MADASA: Which month?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: It would be difficult to know Chairperson, I do not remember the month, but I know the same year, 1993.

MR MADASA: When Mnyala called the stay away, was the ANC Youth League still part of the SDU?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: At that time there was no peace.

CHAIRPERSON: Between the SDU and the Youth League?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

MR MADASA: It had already separated?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

MR MADASA: Did you have a quarrel with Mnyala as a result of your disapproval of the stay away?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

MR MADASA: My instructions are that that was the initial reason why you led ANC Youth League away from the SDU?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Sir, all the people you are applying for, are liars.  They are not telling the bad things they did to the community.

MR MADASA: My instructions are that it was as a result of your disapproval of the call for stay away that you led ANC Youth League away from SDU?  Is that so?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: They are not telling the wrongs they did to the community.  I have a statement why there was a conflict between us.

MR MOTATA: Please confine yourself to answering the question, asked.  We will make much more progress in that respect.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the answer to the question?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Yes, there was a quarrel between myself and Mnyala because of that stay away.

MR MADASA: The question is did you as a result of that quarrel, lead ANC Youth League away from the SDU?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: At that time, they had already separated.  I did not lead them away, they had already separated.

MR MADASA: Did you know (indistinct)

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I knew him well sir.

MR MADASA: To which organisation did he belong?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: He was a member of the South African Communist Party and he was also a member of the ANC.

MR MADASA: How do you know that?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: You know the day we sat together, discussing politics of the country, then.

MR MADASA: How did you know that he had membership of the Communist Party of South Africa?