Human Rights Violation Hearings — Karoo — 1996-10-08

CASE NO: CT/00513

TESTIMONY FROM: ELSIE JANTJIE [mother]
 NELSON JANTJIE [brother]

MARY BURTON: We move on to our next case now and we ask to come to the stage Elsie Jantjies and Nelson Sinxoshe Jantjie.  Welcome and good afternoon - can you hear me well with the earphones.

<UNKNOWN>: Yes ma'am.

MARY BURTON: Ms Jantjie would you please stand to take the oath.
ELSIE JANTJIE Duly sworn states

MARY BURTON: Mr Jantjie please would you stand.
NELSON SINXHOSE JANTJIE Duly sworn states

MARY BURTON: Ms Seroke is going to help you in telling us the story of what happened to yourselves and your family.

MS SEROKE: Good afternoon Elsie - are you Sophie's mother?

UNKNOWN: Yes I am.

MS SEROKE: We will ask you ma'am to tell us what happened - what led to the led of  Sophie in 1985.

UNKNOWN: What happened before that I would not know, because when she got shot I was not at home, she got home on a Friday from Johannesburg, she was shot on a Saturday.  I was not at home during that time, a certain lady called me to come back home.  She called me to see my child as she was lying on the street, [indistinct] called me, we ran to the street, my child was strewn on the ground.
 When we got there, we endeavoured to lift her up she could not even speak.  We tried to lift her up, someone said we must leave her alone until the police come.  We left her there - we crossed the road and sat on the pavement waiting for the police.  The police did not come,  she was just strewn on the ground. 
 A certain man walked passed us towards my daughter, I then said that he must leave her, because the police must see her first, he said there is no police  that is going to come.  He said he did not see the police on the way.  This man took my daughter, we helped to lift her up to put her in the car.  I was in the car together with this man - we drove my daughter to the police station, that is only - it is only then that the police emanated.
 My daughter was bleeding all over especially on the forehead, the police uncovered my daughter and they - but they covered her up yet again.  They said that we must take her to the doctor, we drove her to the doctor - it took time for the doctor to come to the car.  That doctor uncovered my daughter - he then said an ambulance must be called to take her to De Aar.  This man said he cannot  drive to De Aar because he does not have enough petrol to go to De Aar.
 We said in the car for a while - my daughter was just [indistinct] in pain, she could not speak.  An ambulance arrived, we took her from the car to the ambulance as we were going to drive with her to De Aar.  We went with her to De Aar it was on a Saturday afternoon.  When we got to De Aar  she - we took her inside the nurses said there is no doctor  we waited for the doctor, eventually the doctor came he then asked why they left to bleed on her own.
 The doctor then attended to my daughter, bandaged her around the head - I was there watching all this.  Dr Muller then said we must undress my daughter so that the wounds on her body can be attended to properly.  As we were busy undressing her a bullet fell off her underwear.  The nurses picked up the bullet, saying this is the evidence that your daughter has been shot.
 She was not properly attended too at De Aar - they just told us to take her to Kimberley, we then drove her to Kimberley, she had four wounds in her body one at the centre of her chest, beneath her breasts, the other on her buttocks, the biggest however was on her forehead.  The others we say whilst we were undressing her as she was bleeding, we took her to Kimberley.
 When we got to Kimberley  we stayed there until late, they tried to  examine her but they did not give her any treatment.  They then said they are waiting for specialist to  attend to her, I left late at night on Saturday - they still had not given her treatment.  We rode in the ambulance back to De Aar, because we did not have transport.  My daughter was taken back to De Aar, this now was early hours of the morning.
 I do not have transport from De Aar, I struggled trying to phone home, trying to phone my son to come and fetch me.  My son then asked if the nurses could look after me and take me in until the next day when I came to fetch her, because the son did not have money for petrol.
 When I got home I did not get home, my son phoned saying he does not have petrol he will come the following day.  Eventually my son arrived - he fetched me to take me home,  minutes after I had arrived, a police van to fetch me, I asked the police if I could go and change my clothing because I was full of my daughter's blood, I went inside then and changed, I asked them, where am I going, they said that I am needed at the police station.
 The police van was full of people, when I got to the police station I thought that they were going to ask me something.  But all they did was to arrest me and detain me.  I was in detention when I heard of my  daughter's death, I was behind bars.

MS SEROKE: Have you finished ma'am?

UNKNOWN: There is something else that happened before my daughter got shot - I just found her strewn on the ground.

MS SEROKE: Were there any eye witnesses or people who told you what happened prior to her shooting?

UNKNOWN: Well people did utter statements whilst I was in jail and afterwards.  It is only afterwards whilst I was in detention that anyone said something.

MS SEROKE: Could you ma'am tell us what they said to you.

UNKNOWN: They said that it was [indistinct] who beat her on the forehead with a walking stick.  I was not there when she was shot - I found her strewn on the ground.

MS SEROKE: You do not know the reason why she was attacked?

UNKNOWN: I do not know, I do not know what she had done.

MS SEROKE: Maybe your son will tell us.  Ma'am when you  were arrested  you thought that they were going to ask you about Sophie - what reason did they give you for having arrested you?

UNKNOWN: No-one gave me the time of day, no-one gave me the respect - no-one informed me why it was that I was being arrested.  I did not know what was happening, I am the one who was in pain, but still they arrested me.  My daughter had been shot, I was detained up to the time when my daughter died, the only time I was released is when I went to bury my child.

MS SEROKE: In your statement you say that when you were arrested they asked if you could give a statement and you refused, what did they  want you to say?

UNKNOWN: I refused, investigators called me, they said I must write down what I know, I said I do not know anything, all I did was to take my child to the hospital.  I don't know what happened the entire Saturday, I spent most of my day in Kimberley, I only came back on the Sunday, I refused to write a statement, I refused.

MS SEROKE: Your statement says that they asked - they asked you who threw stones at Jackon's house.

UNKNOWN: I don't know anything about any stones.  I heard when I was already in detention about this.  The stone throwing incident happened in my absence.  Even at the location of my daughter's shooting there was no-one but she.

MS SEROKE: We are going to stop here for a moment ma'am - we will now talk to Nelson - maybe he can compliment your statement and give us his perspective and perception of the whole incident.
 Nelson won't you please give us the information that you know - give us your understanding.  Please tell us what happened, who shot Sophie and why?