Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-23

CHAIRPERSON: Are you in a position to proceed with Mr Ntuli's application?  If we can have as short a break as possible, so that we can start soon to make up for the lost time, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Before we start this matter, I would just like to for the benefit of the people attending, introduce the panel that will be hearing the matter, to you.  On my right is Mr Jonas Sibanyoni, he is a member of the Amnesty Committee and he is an Attorney from Pretoria.
	On my left is Mr Ilan Lax, also a member of the Amnesty Committee and he is an Attorney from Pietermaritzburg.  I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge of the High Court in the Eastern Cape, in particular the Transkei Division of the High Court.
	I would just like the legal representatives to please place themselves on record.

MR MCHUNU: Thank you Chairperson, my name is Mchunu, Mbongeleni Mchunu.  I appear on behalf of the applicant in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mchunu.  Mr Mchunu, while you are there, could you push, I think that other button, that other microphone seems to be on, or is it just the light reflecting on it.  It was off, thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman and members of the Committee, J.M. Mpshe for the Amnesty Committee, appearing for the victims Mr Chairman.  To my left Mr Chairman, is the brother to the deceased in this matter, the family members, all of them are in attendance, the parents, the sisters and the brothers.
	The reason why I chose to have him here with me, is that he has certain questions that he would like me to put, so I want to communicate with him, to make sure that I put the questions as the family requested me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly, thank you.  Mr Mchunu?

MR MCHUNU: Mr Chairman, the headphones that I have just handed to the applicant, I am not quite sure which language they have been switched on.  If I may just ...

CHAIRPERSON: If he wants the Zulu, it must be on channel 3.

MR LAX: Can you hear the translation now Mr Ntuli?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Yes.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR MCHUNU: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairperson, just as an opening statement, the applicant herein is Nkosinathi Immanuel Ntuli, who applies for amnesty for one incident, that is the murder of Ndlandhla Msani, on the 17th of June 1991 at kwaMakutha location, which offence he was charged, found guilty and was convicted and sentenced for 12 years.
	I will start straight away leading, but before that, if I may just get him sworn in Mr Chairman.

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: (sworn states)

MR MCHUNU: Mr Ntuli, as just a matter of common cause, is it correct that you were born on the 11th of January 1972 at Umlazi township?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Yes.

MR MCHUNU: Is it also correct that you are a supporter or during, or you are a supporter of the African National Congress?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Yes.

MR MCHUNU: Is it also correct that you are serving a prison sentence, a 12 year term prison sentence for the murder of Ndlandhla Msani at kwaMakutha location?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MCHUNU: Now Mr Ntuli, is it also correct that you are seeking amnesty for the offence which you are serving your sentence for?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MCHUNU: Could you elaborate on the facts before the murder of Mr Msani, just give a background on what finally led to the murder of Mr Msani?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: Yes, I can explain.

MR MCHUNU: Proceed.

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: After the death of one of our comrades who was shot by the kwaZulu Police at kwaMakutha, this comrade was removed from a taxi.  After that incident, we did not know how the Police had found him, because he was on the run from the Police because of certain crimes.
	During that time, a rumour circulated that the person who had contacted the Police was Mr Ndlandhla Msani as a person who worked at kwaMakutha, we knew Ndlandhla Msani.
	After learning that he was the one who had contacted the Police, we wanted to question him about that incident.  During those days, Ndlandhla Msani was not seen around, he was not around in the area.  Some time elapsed - amongst the comrades, what we knew was that he was the one who had contacted the Police and we were expecting that whenever we saw him, we would stop and question him.
	One day I had been with some of the comrades at the township, we were at Mkhize house, house number 10, it was in the afternoon.  On that day I went home because it was getting dark.  I took a jacket from home and I returned and as I approached, I saw the comrades discussing something.  They were saying that Ndlandhla Msani was approaching.
	This was the first time we saw him after the incident of killing Mduduzi.  We thought that if he saw us as a group, he may be afraid, that is if he was responsible, because we also were not sure if he had indeed contacted the Police.
	Therefore we planned that only one person should approach him, and stop him on the street because he knew us and if he saw only one person approaching him, he may not suspect anything.  We deliberated on who should approach him because he had just passed us, but we knew that he was going to return the same way where we were standing.
	I volunteered to be the one to stop him.  There was a problem of how I would handle him if for instance he started fighting with me, and I said when he stops, they should also start approaching and I would explain this to him, that we wanted to speak to him as comrades.
	I was a bit afraid because I was young, I was 19 at the time.  I then requested from amongst the comrades that if a person, if anybody has a weapon, they should give it to me so that if maybe we argue or we fight Ndlandhla, I could threaten him with a knife or with a weapon.
	Although I cannot remember who produced the knife, but somebody produced it and I took that knife and I went on to the street.
	Ndlandhla approached and I stopped him.  He did not stop directly in front of me, but he stopped at about the sixth house from where we were.  I then ran to him.  I thought that if I explained the situation to him, if standing from outside, he may suspect something or he may resist, because although we were not sure that he was indeed guilty, but if I had told him the entire story whilst I was outside the vehicle, he might actually run away.
	I then asked him to take me to the depot and he agreed.  I got into the vehicle, it was himself and his conductor in the car.

MR MCHUNU: You have said even though you were not sure, but it was a belief that he knew about this.  How strong was your belief?

NKOSINATHI IMMANUEL NTULI: As I said before, I would have asked him to stop or to reverse because he had not stopped directly in front of me.  I only asked him to reverse when I was already in the car, because the comrades wanted to speak to him.

MR MCHUNU: If I may just direct, put this question this way, you said that you were not so sure that it was him who had sold out, but you had that belief, or there was that belief, that it was him actually.  My question is, how strong was that belief?   Did you have a very strong belief, or did you just have a suspicion?