Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

CHAIRPERSON: Did they say: "attack the church" or "attack his house"?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It was a church or a mission -  it was a mission house.  It was during the night, it was myself, Mamome, Sesedinyyana and Morakile.  I managed to make four petrol bombs.  When we arrived at Botshabelo - I will explain in this way.  Pardon me, there is somebody who's speaking, there is somebody who is disturbing me.
	When we went to Botshabelo from Bloemfontein we arrived at Botshabelo.  That mission is on top of a hill, below there are some furrows and it is easy for people to cross over that area.  We have packed our cars below there.  It was myself, Mamome - we were ready with our petrol bombs - and Morakile.  We left Sesedinyyana in the car because he was the driver and he knew the area where the mission was situated.
	We went on top through the trenches to approach the mission. When we arrived on top, Mamome lit the petrol bomb - he lit three of them.  The fourth one we lit it, I hold it in my left hand - we go and attack.  I threw the last one because the house was already burning - the church was already burning.  We were moving next - or through the trenches.  
	We didn't know what was happening - Mamome gave us some instructions so that we must run very fast to our car.  We were following him until we arrived at our car because he knew exactly what was happening in that area.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Memani, the interpretation spoke of the church was burning and I would have thought you would clear this up because there's a difference between a church and a church house - a mission house.

INTERPRETER: The applicant is using both words, at times he uses the church and at times, the mission.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well his counsel should clear it up.  He surely knows what the man is talking about, we don't.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.  Now ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What was burning?  Did they leave a church burning when they ran away?

ADV MEMANI: But Sir, I'm about to put the question for clarification to him.
	Did you burn the church or the mission?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It's a mission of a church.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: It's the mission house but the interpreter said that you use these words interchangeably, church and then a mission house.  I think you must stick to one thing, a church is a church - it's a building in which people go in and praise the Lord, a big one like this one.  And a mission house is where the minister - the priest would live with his wife and children - it's a house.
	Now, you cannot just use these things in such a confusing way because very soon it would appear that you are contradicting yourself.  You must decide whether you tell us about the church or the mission house.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It's a mission house.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Keep to that then.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It's a mission house.

ADV MEMANI: You then drove away from the scene.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, we left from the scene and when we entered the car Sesedinyyana wanted to move in front because when he looked up he saw the priest coming - we saw him also.  Then he said: "the priest is there whom I was talking about because he was under those flames".  Then he said he's trying to take the car a little bit faster but the car was on the reverse.  He stopped the car, then he said I thought I put the car on the forward gear but it was on the reverse - then we went home.

ADV MEMANI: Did you report about the incident?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, we reported about the incident to Lieutenant Shaw and Colonel Coetzee.

ADV MEMANI: Now, the next incident is the incident relating to the assault and torture of detained and/or arrested political activists.  Are you able to tell the Committee about this incident?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I'm ready to tell the Committee about this incident.

ADV MEMANI: Now, where did the torture take place?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It took place at our office.  I would like to tell you, to give you names of all people.

ADV MEMANI: Now, there is a list contained at pages 140 to 141.  Now do you want to read the names as they appear on the list.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I would read the names which appear on the list.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman with respect, is that really necessary, we can all read.  Perhaps he could get to what he's going to say about the names Mr Chairman, with respect.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I would have expected the names to be read for the record in any way.

MR VISSER: I withdraw ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: I think he confirm it if it's all the people.  He need not read them all out, he could confirm it.  It's 27 names there, are they all the people he's going to refer to or what?  But continue, let's not waste time.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I'll start from the beginning of the list, they start with 140.  We start with the name of Brian Nakedi.  We went to him early in the morning at his home - he was wanted by the unit which was working with the MK's.  From his home - in the car whilst we were driving we assaulted him then I took part.
	When  he arrived at the office in the 5th floor, he was taken by the unit which was responsible for MK and ANC.  I knew that he was going to be assaulted.  It is true that when he appeared on the 4th floor in that unit, he was assaulted by whom - I don't know who took part in the assault but when he left the office - came to our office, he was swollen.
	Moss Mokgamisi, with him was - he was collected by us from his home.  It was through the command of the office after they checked his file.  We took him from his home.  I played a role in his assault in the car when we were taking him to the office.  He was taken to the very same unit.  In that office again, he was assaulted.  I don't know who took part in the assault but I took part only in the assault whilst he was in the car.	
	Oupa Makhubalo.  He was taken regularly from his home - he was beaten, he was assaulted more than others.  Where one day I and Sergeant Mamome tied his hands behind his back on the chair - we were together in Sergeant Mamome's office.  He took a rubber tube - I tightened his hands behind the back and then he put this rubber tube on the face.  That is when we were digging the information as to whether who were influencing him so that he tried speak to cross the South African border to go to Lesotho to get training - MK training.	
	We left him because the MK unit were looking for him, then we left him to got to the second floor where he was assaulted when he appeared to the above office - to our office.  His face was cracked, his hair was pulled just on top of the head.  I don't know who took part in that assault but I think he knows.
	Monampule Nthaba.  We took him from his home.  The same information we received about Makhubalo.  He wanted to cross the South African border.  He was in Browland Street.  We made him to do frog jumps, we made him to do push-ups.  Those are the methods we used to harass the people - to torture the people.  He was taken by the people who were working in the 4th floor.  When I speak of the 4th floor, the unit which is responsible for MK and ANC - they were under the command of  Colonel du Plooy.
	John Jwuayi.  He was the same as the two people above the list.  We took him for frog jumps.  I don't mean that we're doing mere exercises, you do them until you get tired whilst we were beating you and you do the push-ups until you get tired and then repeat again whilst we were assaulting you.

CHAIRPERSON: How were you assaulting them?