Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes I did speak to him.

MR MOOSA: Could you tell us what that was about?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: At that stage I did not have background, I asked him where he came from and I just spoke to him in general until we reached Port Elizabeth.

MR MOOSA: It is my instructions, as I have just mentioned to the Chairman, that Mr Kondile was abducted from Lesotho.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's unknown to me.

MR MOOSA: Now Mr Danster has said in his statement that Mr Kondile was interrogated over a long period and was subjected to many assaults.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I do not know anything about the assaults.

MR MOOSA: Could you describe the assaults you do concede to those, that is those by Mr du Plessis.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I was not present when Capt du Plessis assaulted him.  I only heard this here at the trial.

MR MOOSA: You would agree with me that the arrest of Mr Kondile was a very important event, not so?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

MR MOOSA: I would take it therefore that senior officers and other policemen would have come to Jeffrey's Bay to see the person who has been arrested.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: All that I know of is that Capt du Plessis, I worked with him, that he was there.  I didn't see any other officers there.

MR MOOSA: One of the people that's mentioned by Mr Danster and is agreed to - sorry.  There is mention by Mr Danster of people who came from Pretoria, white policemen.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I do not know about that.

MR MOOSA: And Mr Coetzee has stated that it was himself who went with Mr van Rensburg at least past this place and certainly saw Mr Kondile at the white single quarters.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I have no knowledge of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether Mr Dirk Coetzee came there?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No I have no knowledge of that at all.

MR MOOSA: When you fetched Mr Kondile in Bloemfontein do you know what happened to the vehicle which Mr Kondile had?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: At that stage I did not have any knowledge of his vehicle.  I only had the instruction to fetch this man and to take him through to Port Elizabeth.

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Raath tell me, you and Mr Danster, were you working in a pair or could it possibly be that he was on duty when you were off at some time during that period of Mr Kondile's detention?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I do not know which stage you are referring to now.

JUDGE PILLAY: At the time (no interpretation).

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

JUDGE PILLAY: U was daar ......

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

JUDGE PILLAY: Also Mr Danster, not so?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

JUDGE PILLAY: Did you work together or were there occasions when you were off duty and he was on duty?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes, we were with him together most of the time.

JUDGE PILLAY: Do you know when there were occasions when he was alone?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes there were.

ADV DE JAGER: Was he guarded day and night?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes.  We all slept there at night and he also slept in the room.  There was a bed for him.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but you say there were three in the room?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time, was there a time when Danster was alone with Kondile?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And where would you be then?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I could have been in Port Elizabeth perhaps busy doing other work or I could even have gone home.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes do carry on.

MR MOOSA: When Mr Kondile was interrogated was it always by you alone or were there times when you would join Mr du Plessis and you would do it together?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: There were times that we sat together, there were times when I was alone, when he was alone during the interrogation.

MR MOOSA: And if Mr du Plessis was there to interrogate Mr Kondile would he also stay over at Jeffrey's Bay?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Not necessarily, no.

MR MOOSA: Most Mr Kondile cooperative from the beginning as far as you were concerned?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: As far as I was concerned from the time that I was involved in the operation he gave his cooperation and I had no problems with him.

MR MOOSA: I am going to put it to you that it's in the highest degree unlikely that you would not have assaulted him and that the version given by Danster is very probable.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

MR MOOSA: You say that Mr du Plessis told you about his decision to recruit Mr Kondile, am I right?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: And if I followed your evidence-in-chief properly, he also kept you informed of how that was going?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

MR MOOSA: I would imagine you worked as a security policeman at that point on a need-to-know basis, or am I wrong?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: With his recruitment Capt du Plessis did this on his own, I was present while he was doing the interrogation but he was alone with the man at times and in this way he recruited him and he worked with him on his own.

MR MOOSA: The recruitment occurred while Mr du Plessis was alone with Mr Kondile, is that what you are saying?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes, most of the time.

MR MOOSA: Now why would Mr du Plessis come and tell you, a junior officer, about his progress with the recruitment?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: He did not elaborate and give me details but I could realise that he was recruiting the man and that there was mutual trust.

MR MOOSA: Did he also tell you about the note he allegedly found on Mr Kondile?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: It was mentioned to me but I was not told the details about the note.

MR MOOSA: When did you first meet Mr Coetzee?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: It was at Komatipoort.

MR MOOSA: And Sergeant Otto?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: At the same time, at Komatipoort.

MR MOOSA: You are telling us of course that Mr van Rensburg never visited, whenever you were present at least, at Jeffrey's Bay?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct.

MR MOOSA: And the same applies to Mr Erasmus?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

MR MOOSA: Now I am going to take you through from the Eastern Cape to Bloemfontein where supposedly Mr Kondile was released and then abducted or kidnapped.  When it's said that he was released does that mean that he was allowed to leave with his motor vehicle from the police station or did the whole transaction occur of him being kidnapped at the Bloemfontein station?

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry.  I think the evidence was that he was released at Jeffrey's Bay, according to the papers at least, if it can be said he was ever released.

MR MOOSA: I stand corrected.  What actually happened, though, with the vehicle at Bloemfontein, with Mr Kondile's vehicle, did you fetch it immediately from the station and did you get him directly?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: The vehicle was handed to me by Capt du Plessis or Colonel van Rensburg, I cannot remember which one of the two it was that gave me the keys of the vehicle.

MR MOOSA: I am asking this question because Mrs Kondile has brought it to my attention that there seemed to be a number of reports at the time that Mr Kondile was led into his vehicle and was allowed to go, to be released, do you know anything about those?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

MR MOOSA: At Komatipoort itself you say you found the wood already gathered, does that mean the wood was waiting for you?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct.  There was a pile of wood lying there.

MR MOOSA: And the area which you were in was a remote area, it was unlikely that onlookers would stumble onto what was happening there, am I right?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct, yes.  It's a forestry area.

MR MOOSA: You have said that Sergeant Otto shot Mr Kondile and you heard the sound, is that right?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct as far as I can remember.