Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-24

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes we did.

MR DRAHT: And what happened then?

ELIAS MBATHA: We ran after them right across the sports field and we started calling one another to come back.  That is when I saw the person who was lying down dead near Skosana's shop.

MR DRAHT: While pursuing the ANC group, did you see any person get hurt, or being attacked by your group?

ELIAS MBATHA: No, there's no one person that I saw getting hurt, except the one that we came across lying dead.

MR DRAHT: What happened after you went back to the sports field?

ELIAS MBATHA: We went to the sports field, and we stayed there.  It was difficult for us to go back to the shacks, because we did not know whether these ANC people were coming back or not.  And we decided to stay there, wait for them, and see whether they come back or not.  And as we were standing there one police vehicle came along, and when it arrived I fled with the weapon that I was carrying.

MR DRAHT: When were you arrested?

ELIAS MBATHA: I was arrested on Sunday.  This happened on Saturday.

MR DRAHT: Where were you arrested?

ELIAS MBATHA: I was arrested on my way to Zevenfontein, having come from the river where I had hidden to avoid arrest.

MR DRAHT: You stated there were about 400 persons in the ANC group.  How many persons were in your group?

ELIAS MBATHA: Even 'though I cannot be sure, but we could have been around 100, but then I must say I'm not sure.  We were not too many.  The one group that was more than ours was the ANC.

MR DRAHT: Were they armed?  The ANC group.

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes, they were armed.

MR DRAHT: With what were they armed?

ELIAS MBATHA: They had machetes and spears, as well as sticks.

MR DRAHT: Except for hearing the shots from their group could you see anybody with firearm in the ANC group?

ELIAS MBATHA: No.

MR DRAHT: Except for Mr Sithole in your group, and yourself, did you see any other persons in your group with firearms?

ELIAS MBATHA: The one person I saw was Mr Magwaza.

MR DRAHT: What kind of firearm did see with him?

ELIAS MBATHA: He had a handgun.

MR DRAHT: Mr Mbatha are you sorry about the acts that you have committed that day?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes, I am very sorry.

MR DRAHT: That will be all Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DRAHT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Draht.  Mr Claassen do you have any questions to ask the witness, the applicant?

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair, I've got no questions to ward this applicant.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR CLAASSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cachalia do you have any questions to ask this applicant?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Mbatha, you were not responsible for the, there were no people that died when the original next to Brown's shack where the IFP shot towards the ANC group.  Is that correct?  You didn't see anybody that had died as a result of that shooting at that particular place?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes, I did not see anyone.  I only heard from the police that one of the people died around that place.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And did you know that one of the persons had died at some other place quite higher up where he was stabbed and assaulted and he died as a result of that.  Do you know that?  The evidence that your previous co-accused gave.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the one next to the shebeen, or a different place.

ELIAS MBATHA: I would not dispute that because yes, some of our people were carrying spears.

AZHAR CACHALIA: No just the person that Mr, your, the previous applicant discussed was Mr Alfred Malumale, who had died because of the assault on him.  Mr Ndlovu gave that evidence.  Did you hear that evidence?  This morning.

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes, I heard it quite well.

AZHAR CACHALIA: That was higher up on that main road where the shooting took place.

ELIAS MBATHA: Would you please repeat the question.  I do not get it quite well.

AZHAR CACHALIA: The two groups confronted one another.  The ANC and the IFP near Mr Brown's house and at the sports field.  Is that right?  When the shooting took place.

ELIAS MBATHA: That is correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Now on that road that goes towards the top of the settlement, the steep incline there, on that particular road Mr Malumale died higher up on there and not as a result of the shooting.  Is that right?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know?  I think, ask him if he knows.
	Are you aware that a Mr Alfred Malumale died on that road that goes up the steep hill to the top part of the settlement?  That was mentioned by Mr Ndlovu in his evidence.  He said that he saw a person being attacked there but he didn't himself participate in that attack.  That's what he said.  Are you aware of that?

ELIAS MBATHA: I would not dispute that, but I was not directly involved in that.

AZHAR CACHALIA: That's what I'm trying to say.  You ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just one second.  Are you saying that you never saw that?  Is that what you're saying?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes, I did not see it happen.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And I just want to put to you that the street that goes down next to the sports field past Mr Brown's house towards Magwaza's shop is sort of the main road that comes up from the top of the hill that is.  Am I correct in saying that?  That in the squatter camp it is a gravel road which comes up, which comes down towards Magwaza's house, that is one of the main roads.  Is that right?  There are little alleyways in the squatter camp.  This is a road on which you can drive a motor car with, two motor cars can pass there.

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes, I agree with you, that's the main street that's coming from the top.  But there was no tar road there.  The tar road was further up.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cachalia mentioned that it was a gravel road.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I'm just mentioning that in order to place Skosana's shebeen.  If I came from the top to down that road I would pass Mr Brown's shack on my right-hand side, there would then be the sports field, and about 20 or 30 paces further down from the sports field was Mr Magwaza's shop.  Is that correct?

ELIAS MBATHA: Yes, I agree with you.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And Skosana's shebeen was on the lefthand side where most of the IFP members were living at that time.  They're not living there now, it is now cleared, but Mr Skosana's shebeen was on the lefthand side about 60 or 70 metres from the sports field.  Is that correct?

ELIAS MBATHA: I agree with you.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Why was it necessary for you to go past that place?  You were pursuing the people up onto the steep where  they were running away, why did you have to go to Skosana's shebeen area?

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Cachalia.  His evidence so far has been that he pursued them across the sports ground, and then somebody called them back.  He didn't get, his evidence so far is he didn't get past the sports ground.  That's how I understood it.

CHAIRPERSON: Except that he did say that he saw a body, near Skosana's shebeen.

MR LAX: Yes, but that was on the way back from the sports ground.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but I think what Mr Cachalia's saying is, we'll have to clear this up, is the ANC ran the other way from, away from Skosana's shop, not towards it.  Perhaps we could clear that up.  Perhaps you could ask him in which direction they ran Mr Cachalia.  If they ran towards that said shop or not.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Thank you sir.  Mr Mbatha, you were standing on the lower end of the slope on the grounds and Mbatha's, sorry Brown's house is a little higher up, where the ANC group was.  Is that correct?

ELIAS MBATHA: Let me explain it as follows.  I do not know Brown's house quite well, but we were downward, on the downward direction, and the ANC were further up.

AZHAR CACHALIA: When you shot at them did they run higher up towards the hill?  Did they run upwards or did they come further down?

ELIAS MBATHA: They ran upwards.