Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-25

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Because that is why we moved up there, and we told them we are going to fight, it is war.

CHAIRPERSON: No, am talking about the bombs, the Bree Street bomb, did they know who was responsible for those specific bombs?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No, I did not discuss anything with the women because I always said the soldier does not discuss his instructions.
	If they saw it on televisions and they made conclusions, then they kept it to themselves.  They knew it was the AWB, that is the way they spoke and talked, but I did not discuss my instructions with the women. 
	I do not know about the other men, but I did not.  My wife now knows what I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you planning to join the AWB again?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: No Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you finished with politics?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you finished with politics?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: My honest opinion, yes, I am finished.

CHAIRPERSON: And the Volkstaat, is this still an idea that you are interested in?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: A Volkstaat is a good idea.  Like I see it now, the government of the day, the negotiations are there and they must be the people who take the decisions.
	I identify myself with the new government.

CHAIRPERSON: How is that?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Because everything they said before the elections, about how things would be, that did not happen.  It is going well.
	They told us that we would not continue existing, there would be chaos in this country once they take over.  The PAC said that they were going to shoot us and even so, there are negotiations and we are alive.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you willing to live in the new South Africa?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: I live well.  Give them a Volkstaat and I will respect it as I respect all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: And if it does not happen?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Then we stay and we build together, because if all of us aren't going to build on this country, we will not achieve any goal.

CHAIRPERSON: So you have made peace with the country as it is currently existing?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, I have made my peace.

CHAIRPERSON: Please tell me, do you know the people who were injured or the family of the people who died because of the bomb you planted or thrown or whatever?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: I do not know them, the names were made known.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you make any attempt to try and talk to them and to make peace with them?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: I believed that this is the day.  I believed the day we come and sit here.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you willing to talk to them, to tell them what is on your heart?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: Yes, I am willing to talk to them.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you think you are going to accomplish that?

GERHARDUS D FOURIE: I do not know.  I heard that there would be some of the family members present here.  If they allow me to talk to them, then we must talk, if they have nothing against me.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you can step down.

<UNKNOWN>: .

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, if it pleases the Committee, could we possibly just get clarity on the way forward from here, who is going to be called and when before we take the adjournment.  I don't think it should take too long to decide that.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not switched on)  Sorry, I decided that Olivier would be done in chambers.
	We are finished with the applicants and their versions and evidence.  Are you planning to call any other witness?

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes, Chairperson, I plan to call Nico Prinsloo.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he available?

MS VAN DER WALT: He is not.  If I can give you the reason.  I spoke to him last night for the first time.  He was very unhappy, I think it was in the media or something, that he did not receive notice when they applicants started giving the evidence, but he is willing to come and testify, but it is impossible for me to have consulted with him completely, last night.
	His evidence would have bearing on a wide spectrum.  I did speak to the other legal representatives this morning and I discussed this aspect with them, because I felt that despite the fact that I cannot make him testify now, I have not consulted with him fully yet.  Even if I had him here now, his evidence in chief would not have been finished tomorrow at one, and then he must still be cross-questioned.
	It is going to be a very long evidence, I can warn you.  His evidence is going to be concerned with the run up, the political run up from the beginning and there is a lot of problems dealing with that, we are talking about the Volksfront, etc, but I think it is necessary for the applicants, I think they will be disadvantaged if this evidence is not led.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not know what he is going to say, but I just want to point it out to you that we do not want the 21 years of the AWB's history, only with regards to the applicants's issues.

MS VAN DER WALT: That is the only one I am going to call.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Is the General family of yours?

MR PRINSLOO: no.

CHAIRPERSON: I am just asking.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, I obtained information last night and in the light of certain evidence, I consider to consult and call Johan Smit.  I learnt that he does have a legal representative so I will have to speak to him first.

CHAIRPERSON: How long do you think it will take for him to give his evidence?

MR PRINSLOO: His evidence will be shorter than that of Mr Prinsloo.  You know where he is involved in this case.

CHAIRPERSON: Why haven't you consulted with him yet or why haven't someone consulted with him yet?

MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson, I learnt that he was notified and I also learnt that he has a legal representative, which should be present at these proceedings, but last night I obtained some information with regards to that.  I was never in a position to consult with him and at that time, I also did not deem it necessary to call him, because of the applicants' own evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the only person you plan on calling?  Are you sure you are going to call him, or are you just going to consult?

MR PRINSLOO: I am going to call him.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you consulted with him?

MR PRINSLOO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know you are going to call him?

MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson, because of the information that I received, he is willing to testify, I did not speak to him personally.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  Mr Landman?

MR LANDMAN: Mr Chairman, originally I indicated that I appeared on behalf of one applicant, Mr Buthelezi.  He doesn't intend giving evidence in this hearing, however the Evidence Leader, Mr Prior has indicated that there are certain victims who may want my services.
	I still have to get clarity from the Legal Aid Board as to whether or not I get instructions from them.  I do understand that ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not switched on)

MR LANDMAN: Mr Prior.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not switched on)

MR LANDMAN: I have understood from Mr Prior that at least one or two of those persons, are interested in making oral submissions, but I will obviously discuss it with him.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not switched on)

MR LANDMAN: Not at all, no.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Chairman, as indicated that I will be leading three families of deceased or injured persons.  Mr Chairman, may I just comment on something?
	When we started this application, we had a lot of confusion about who was applying for what, it took quite a while for us to sort out.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not switched on)

MS CAMBANIS: Now, there is at least one more witness and the possibility of another witness and we don't know after those two witnesses, if then further witnesses, and we really would, I would on behalf of my clients like to get clarity of what the case is going to be by the applicants, who they intend calling or whether if we reconvene at some future stage, more people ...[intervention]