Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cradock — 1996-02-10

BONGANI FINCA: We welcome you Mr Velile Ramncwana.  Reverend Xundu is going to help you to take an oath, after that he will lead you with questions on behalf of the Commission.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Will you please stand up sir.

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: (sworn states)

REV XUNDU: Thank you.  Sir, which clan do you belong to?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: I am Nyawhoza.

REV XUNDU: Mr Nyawhoza, your story here says that in 1965 you were arrested for being a member of POQO, can you please tell us in your own words what happened, thank you.

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: In 1965 I was in Steynsburg at the time, in October, the 16th of October, we were taken out of the township.  It was during the night, I was taken to prison.
 When I got to prison the police were throwing water all over us the whole night and in the morning they took us to Colesberg and they kept us there.
 In Colesberg, it was on Saturday, while we were still there, it was Sunday and we were still there and on Monday, we were still there.  On Tuesday, we were taken to the offices to be questioned.
 Dumzela was the first one to be taken there.  When he arrived there, he didn't come back to our cell.  When I was called, Velile Ramncwana, come out and they opened the door, this Detective came to take me from the cell.  When I arrived at the office, there were three Detectives there, Xhosa Detectives, and they showed me a list.
 I asked them what is on this list and they said to me Dumzela wrote on that list and I have to do the same and then I discovered that POQO was not existing according to what they were telling me.
 They were beating me and I was on the floor.  They were taking face bricks, five face bricks on each side and they gave me two face bricks and I took them, I stood up and they were too heavy for me and I dropped them.
 They beat me after that, they tortured me.  At about half past three in the afternoon, they released me, they took me back to the cell.  When I arrived at the cell, I slept and my ears were bleeding.  I slept with one side and others were also taken out one by one and they transferred me to Norpoort.
 When I arrived at Norpoort, it was six of us and they put us in the cell, a black cell.  At that cell, they did not open the door, flies were all over the place, they did not give us any water there.
 On Wednesday, one police lorry came and we were transferred to Cradock.  We asked them where are you taking us, they said we are taking you to a place where you've never been.
 They took us to Cradock to an old prison.  We used to go to the office to be questioned there.

REV XUNDU: Why were they arresting you?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: They said we were members of POQO.

REV XUNDU: Did they say that you were in an organisation which was banned?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: Yes, they said that we were belonging to POQO and our intention was to kill Boers.

REV XUNDU: Were you sentenced?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: When we arrived at Cradock, we stayed in prison until December and in March they took us to Port Elizabeth, in Rooi Hell prison.

REV XUNDU: Were you sentenced at that time?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: No, we were not sentenced.  We went to Rooi Hell and then we were questioned there.  On the 1st of April, they said that we were found guilty.  But they said that we were not guilty, but we are guilty because we were members of POQO.  It was then that we were sentenced.
 And then after that, we were transferred to Braamvlei in Cape Town, in Worcester and we worked there for six months.  After that six months, we were transferred to Victor Verster in Paarl, where we worked for a long time.
 And when the time came for us to be released, I was taken to Benoni prison, near Paarl.  We were a lot and we stayed there until we were released and we were taken home.  And then when the time came, we were taken home.

REV XUNDU: For how long were you sentenced?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: I was sentenced for three years.

REV XUNDU: And then you were released and you came back home?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: Yes, I came back home.

REV XUNDU: These police who came to you to take you, do you still remember their names?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: No, I don't their names, but they were from Colesberg.  They took me with a blanket at night to the van.

REV XUNDU: So there is no one you can recognize?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: No.

REV XUNDU: After you came back, did you manage to get employment?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: I stayed for a long time without getting any employment, but eventually I did get a job.  I was mending shoes.

REV XUNDU: Thank you.  As you are here in front of his Commission, do you have any requests to this Commission?  Do you want us to assist you in some way?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: Yes sir.  I would like you to help me with my medical treatment because I can hardly hear now as my ear drums were damaged.

REV XUNDU: Is there anything else?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: No.

REV XUNDU: Do you have children?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: Yes, I have many children.

REV XUNDU: You don't even know others?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: No, I do know my children.  I have nine children, but they are old, they are grown up.

REV XUNDU: Thank you.  They are supporting themselves?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: Yes.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Mr Nyawhoza, I would hand over to the Chairperson, thank you.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you.  Tiny Maya?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Ramncwana, I follow that there are other people that were arrested with you, do you still remember their names?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: Yes, I do remember them, but others have passed away.

UNKNOWN: Can you please give us a few names?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: The first one is Ngemntu Xatu.

UNKNOWN: Where is he now?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: He is in Steynsburg.

UNKNOWN: Do you have his details?  Where can we find him?  We would like you to give us his details afterwards.  Who is another one?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: Another one is Linyusile Mzdi, he is also in Steynsburg.

UNKNOWN: What about Dumzela, the one you mentioned, who is he?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: Dumzela is the surname.

UNKNOWN: Is he the one who is in Steynsburg?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: No, he is in Matatiele.

UNKNOWN: Is he still alive?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: I don't know, but I think he is still alive.

UNKNOWN: This POQO organisation, what was it, what was the organisation doing as you were arrested?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: I was not doing anything, I was just a member.

UNKNOWN: Were you just a member?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: No, at that time I was not a member.

UNKNOWN: The others who were arrested together with you, were they members of POQO?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: No, they were not members of POQO.

UNKNOWN: Why do you think the police said that you were members of POQO, what was your involvement with POQO?  What was your involvement in the community?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: I think that the police were just accusing us.

UNKNOWN: Were you involved in any political activities at that time?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: No.

BONGANI FINCA: June Crichton?

JUNE CRICHTON: Mr Ramncwana, I would like to ask your opinion about something.  Can you hear me?  Can you hear me?  I am sorry to put you to this trouble of putting those earphones on, but I need to ask your opinion about something.  Could you tell me why you think the authorities transferred you to no less than seven different prisons in the time that you were sentenced?  That is the first question.
 The second is to ask you were those the three years that you were sentenced for, the times that you were transferred, or did you do the sentence after that?

VELILE WILLIE RAMNCWANA: I was sentenced in Port Elizabeth and then I was transferred to Brandvlei, from there I was taken to Paarl.  From Paarl I was taken to Benoni and I was sentenced at that time.