Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: I think it's common cause as far as the politicians are concerned....

UNKNOWN: That's a rather general, I've been a politician myself and I think other people too, to say every politician tried to cover up everything in a general term is severely I think libelous.

MR JANSEN: No Mr Chairman, it's with respect not meant as libelous, what is meant is that with their cover-up, lying to politicians and it's not saying that the politicians or the judicial officers were part of the cover up.   What is meant by that answer and the question is that, and specifically relating to this incident, is that the Security Police lived under a culture where they believed that if they covered for each other and lied for each other they would successfully keep the politicians ignorant.   They would successfully keep the judicial officers ignorant, not that they were a party to it.   That is only how it is meant, I think it's the only extent to which it can be
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MR JANSEN	130	D J COETZEE
meant.
EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: I think it's also common cause that Vlakplaas was in fact not closed after the eventual revelations in 1989, is that correct?

ANSWER: Absolutely Mr Chairman, there was a huge massive cover-up, again to the top, and illegal operations of the kind that I'm asking amnesty for escalated dramatically, personnel build-up operationally ten-fold, 100-fold if it was compared to what I did.

<UNKNOWN>: I think Vlakplaas was in fact only closed during 1993 is that correct?

ANSWER: That's correct, on 30 April 1993 Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: As an example, you at one stage wrote a letter to the then President, F W de Klerk trying to convince him that he should see a different perspective as to that which he was being briefed with by his Generals, is that correct?

ANSWER: That was correct Mr Chairman and if I remember correctly it was on 21 February 1992 or 1991, I wrote the letter whilst in exile in London, went to an attorney to do an oath.   It was faxed to the President's office through the newspaper the Sunday Times and the original registered to him by registered mail.

<UNKNOWN>: Were any of your attempts to expose Security Police activities via political channels ever successful?

ANSWER: Not at all, my letter was in fact, receipt of my letter was not even acknowledged by the then President's office.

<UNKNOWN>: As the Committee pleases.   Mr Chairman I am finished with that evidence, I think just as a matter of completion I would like to HAND UP the letter which has just
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MR JANSEN	131	D J COETZEE
been referred to.   Mr Coetzee I'm just showing you a copy of the letter, could you just confirm that as being the letter that you wrote?

CHAIRPERSON: That will be EXHIBIT L.

ANSWER: That is correct Mr Chairman, this is the letter, 21 February 1991 is the date thereon.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN
COMMISSION ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DE WET-MARAIS
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Coetzee the questions I'm going to put to you cover both incidents, the Lindley shooting as well as the diamond dealer incident.

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: In the diamond dealer incident the body was disposed of, cover-ups were done.   In the Lindley shooting false statements were given and further cover-ups were done.  I want to put it to you that these things were done in both incidents for the following reasons;
1.	to avoid revealing the identity of Joe Mamasela
am I right?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.
QUESTION:	2.	to avoid any embarrassment to the Security Police.

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: All this was done not to achieve any political objective?

ANSWER: Well Mr Chairman I think the answer is no it was to achieve political objective, but one can just look at the revelations and the National and international outcry on the
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MR MPSHE	132	D J COETZEE
morning of 20 October 1989 after Almond Nofomela spoke of the Griffith Mninge incident the previous night only, so one can imagine if then some or one or two or more people were charged that were involved in these incidents and they eventually landed up in jail without being assisted in the normal way by the Security Police covering up, and they started spilling the beans in 1981.   It would have had exactly the same effect as it had on 20 October 1989, in other words that date would have been moved eight years forward, earlier if they risked to charge any one of the people involved.

JUDGE WILSON: Surely there's an enormous difference Captain Coetzee between the deliberate assassination of an attorney who is carrying out his business for political reasons and the killing of a diamond dealer who has tried to cheat you by selling you diamonds that aren't worth the money?

ANSWER: It is true Mr Chairman that is, but I'm specifically answering the question of Mr Mpshe as far as he related it to me that it was not politically intended, the end result of it, but it's completely different, it's completely private, that's correct Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Mr Coetzee but the police didn't deny responsibility for paying for instance the victims in the Lindley incident, it was only that they didn't want the identity of the informer or agent to be...but they accepted responsibility for the act as a police act.

ANSWER: That is correct as far as the civil law suit was concerned, that is correct but as far as the criminal act of the shooting of Joe Mamasela, which was then moved to Almond Nofomela, that was squashed and covered up Mr Chairman.
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MR MPSHE	133	D J COETZEE

<UNKNOWN>: (Inaudible).

ANSWER: No there will be, Lindley at that stage still had these old exchanges and I phoned Brigadier Schoon to his house, I think it was a Saturday night, and had a long discussion with him.   I'm sure if records could be traced it will be proved that way and if W/O Heath who was then station commander, at this stage he's on pension but his son is director, (indistinct) Heath who is still with the South African Police Services.

UNKNOWN: After phoning did you go back to the scene of the incident?

ANSWER: I can't remember, I think I had already at that stage picked up the empty shells of the Tokarev pistol and fired three shots with the 9mm pistol or Almond, to hand that in as some of the...

UNKNOWN: So you decided on that before you were instructed to do so?

ANSWER: I did because of the culture of the police, but would not have risked doing it at all with consent from the very, very top because of the magnitude of the possible results that could come out of that if it was not done.

UNKNOWN: Mr Coetzee and you're also referring to the culture of the police, and I think you should let us stick to the Vlakplaas police, because I don't think, or was it the culture of all the police?

ANSWER: It is a slip of the tongue, I am specifically referring to the culture of the Security Police and more specifically the operational Vlakplaas contingent side of it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Coetzee was there any disciplinary action taken against the likes of Mr Mamasela, he was involved in
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MR MPSHE	134	D J COETZEE
two instances which really were purely criminal and had no bearing on anything that would have been to serve any political objective?

ANSWER: There was no action taken at all Mr Chairman, records will prove that, there was not even an indication of any possibility of any action taken to him, criminally or departmentally, or against any one of us for that matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you advancing the theory that no matter what the Vlakplaas police did, openly criminal activity not related in any way to any political objective, is by you regarded as an overall political objective.   Is that what you are really saying?