Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, thank you very much.

MR LAX: They're indicating they need another one.  The other panel needs one.

INTERPRETER: You may continue, Sir.

MR STRYDOM: Alright, thank you.  I'll read the third question, question 3.2
"Did Mr Damarra Chonco bring weapons to the hostel in a vehicle, a Blue Nissan Skyline?"

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, at the stadium.

MR STRYDOM: And you answer to 3.2 is
"I saw the blue Nissan Skyline at the stadium but did not see that Damarra brought any weapons."

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: 3.3.
"What happened to these weapons after the attack?"
Your answer to that was:
"I don't know."

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Question 4
"Were you present at the general meeting held in the hostel approximately a week before the attack?"
Your answer:
"Yes, I was there."

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Question 4.1
"Was Mr Themba Khosa present during this meeting?"
Your answer:
"No."

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: 4.2
"Did Mr Bhekinsene Mkhize personally address and warn hostel dwellers during this meeting to be prepared because of the pending attack?"
Your answer:
"Yes."

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Let me just read the answer
"Yes, Mr Mkhize mentioned the possibility of an attack but he did not mention any specific date."

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: 4.3
"Give particulars of the issues discussed during this meeting."
Your answer to 4.3:
"The hostel dwellers, including me, complained to Mr Mkhize about the ongoing intimidation and problems with the people of Boipatong and we urged upon him to do something about it."

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Question number 5
"Did Mr Themba Khosa and Mr Humphrey Ndlovu visit KwaMadala after the attack?"
You answered:
"Yes."

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Question 5.1
"If so, give particulars of the nature of this visit."
Your answer:
"They addressed a meeting after the attack."
And question 5.2:
"Did Mr Khosa warn the hostel dwellers at the meeting that they should burn all evidence that linked the attackers to the massacre, including goods stolen from the hostel and clothes stained with blood?"
Your answer:
"Mr Khosa did not know that we took things from Boipatong and he also did not warn us to burn all evidence."

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Question 6
"Did you see any person firing with firearms during this attack?  If yes, please supply particulars."
And your answer to that was:
"Yes, I saw that the following people fired shots: Smit, Sipho Buthelezi, Thomas Sipho Lukozi, Themba Mabote and Mkhize."

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.
MR STRYDOM
"I myself had a 9mm pistol with 16 rounds in it.  I fired 13 shots because when I got back to the hostel there were only three rounds left.  I fired shots at various people.  I would estimate I hit four to five people.  I don't know if they died as a result of being hit."

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: And the last question is
"Did you see any person pick up spent cartridges?  If so please supply particulars."
Your answer was:
"No."

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: So are you happy with these particulars as read to you now, and the answers?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: One of the answers you have given here is that you say
"During the meeting prior to the attack the hostel dwellers complained to Mkhize about the ongoing intimidation and problems with the people of Boipatong."
Now I want to ask you if the complaints just relate to Boipatong or other townships in the Vaal triangle?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: It was not only about Boipatong, it was all about the townships within the Vaal Triangle.

MR STRYDOM: You have also made an affidavit, and I will show you this affidavit but I'm firstly going to show you your cross on page 92.  Do you remember making this affidavit and making that cross?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: This affidavit was shown to you before you testified, is that right?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: You indicated to me that I should also read this affidavit to you yet again during the course of the hearing.  I will now go ahead to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything in the affidavit which the witness does not agree with?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the reason why he asked me to read it again is because we did not have a proper interpreter and he couldn't point to anything that is wrong but he elected that's it's properly interpreted to him at the stage when we have the hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, alright.  Well in that event, proceed.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson.  I'm now going to translate this and I'll try my best to translate it into English for the purpose of the interpreters.  As it stand here - I'm just going to start with the body, the hand-written part of the affidavit
"I moved into ..."
That's now reference to KwaMadala.
"... at more or less January 1992."
Now you indicated to me that that 1992 is not correct, that should read 1991, is that right?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.
MR STRYDOM
"I previously lived in Sharpeville."

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: ...(no English translation).

MR STRYDOM: No, the next sentence is
"I previously lived in Sharpeville.  The reason why I moved to KwaMadala is as a result of fighting with the MK members who fired shots at me."

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.
MR STRYDOM
"My life was in danger.  They said that I was a member of the IFP."