Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.  I would just like to add that that which you referred to now, the opinion - public opinion or the point of view, already existed.  Speculations to this effect had already appeared in the newspapers and it was suggested that the security police had been responsible for this.  I think more or less from December that sort of allegation had been made.

MR PHOSA: Assuming he actually went to court, you say that would not be an addition of importance?  If he came into court under oath and said: "So and so did that and that and that", would that we an irrelevant addition as far as you're concerned?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I wouldn't state that, I can't say that.

MR PHOSA: And I say then if you then, not you - whoever was accused was found in fact to have done it, that surely would have been worse than the position before that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Entirely correct.

MR PHOSA: Now I would say that even in that regime of even Mr Botha, a person so convicted would have lot his job, wouldn't he?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: Sorry, sorry, a person found to have done that act would have lost his job?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I believe that.  Yes, I believe that is what would have happened.

MR PHOSA: There would have been financial repercussions?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: And the branch - even those who were not involved, would have had a stigma?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

MR PHOSA: The branch already had a stigma with regard to the death of Mr Biko, isn't it?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is so.

MR PHOSA: Surely you could not afford another stigma of that nature?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I personally don't believe so, I cannot really comment on something which is an assumption but I believe it would have contributed a further stigma to the branch.

MR PHOSA: Regarding the alleged activities of Mr Mthimkhulu and Mr Madaka, you were relying it seems primarily on the evidence of informers?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR PHOSA: I mean the police.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: Obviously you were not prepared even today, even in that mood in which you are now, a confessing mood and a apologetic mood - you would never produce those informers statements and their identity, would you?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I'm not capable of doing that even if I wished to.

MR PHOSA: Now let's talk about if you're capable.  You would not feel free to inform the Committee today who the informers were, it would be inappropriate?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: You are correct.

MR PHOSA: Therefore as to whether or not you really had such information, it's just going to be your word against whoever - it's just your word, there's no way in which this Committee can know for a fact the details that you referred to, whether he had - he was one of the most - was a courier for firearms, the availability of what have you, the intention to eliminate the police, all that is something that cannot be proved, isn't it?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I cannot really answer to that or give my opinion since I've not dealt with these informers personally, I did not know them.   I do not know whether there were physical informers or whether there was nor information given on these people, I did not deal with that aspect at all.  The people that dealt with that matter gave the information through to du Plessis and he then filtered through information to me with regard to the two gentlemen.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand from that that you had no original information about them, that the information you got was what Mr du Plessis filtered through to you?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.  I might add Chairperson, that du Plessis gave the information through, even some reports were given through to me by him, you are completely correct.  I'm now referring to written reports in my latest example.

MR PHOSA: I'm just passing onto something else.  Sorry, just to conclude that, you arrived at the decision to eliminate Mr Mthimkhulu and Mr Madaka on the reports you were given by others?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

MR PHOSA: On the question of the possible legal steps - just to conclude that, it appears that because you could not use informers and also because there was no admission or confession from Mr Mthimkhulu for instance, nothing could be done in court?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct, this is how I understood it from Mr du Plessis.

MR PHOSA: Regarding possible house arrest, you say that the person would have been able to move about freely without you knowing that he'd done so, are you saying that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, there were occasions where that actually happened to people that were restricted.  It's not abnormal or a new development as far as I know or can remember from then.

MR PHOSA: I'm not a witness but if you're talking about the period in which I lived, there were so many of your informers planted all over the township - townships, that it shouldn't have been a problem.  Perhaps let me first ask, am I right that you had informers planted all over?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I do not believe that is completely correct.  If you refer to all over, that would imply behind every bush, lamppost, house, cornerstone etc., it's not true.

MR PHOSA: You know language of course, I'm referring to all areas, all townships and all sensitive areas where you sought information you placed informers, even outside the office of lawyers who did cases?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I cannot comment on that, I didn't myself deal with such informants, I did not place people like that in P.E., if that is what you referred to.

MR PHOSA: There were informers in the township though?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR PHOSA: Many.  They are the ones who came and gave reports to you?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Also correct.

MR PHOSA: And it was also possible and it was done, that is taking photo's of persons clandestinely at certain areas, isn't it?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, there cases like that.

MR PHOSA: Also you were having telephones tapped?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: I don't know if you were shown in the statement of Mr Bobelo where he says he was given this task of doing it on a daily basis, he said he even knew the voices of all the Mthimkhulu family, were you shown that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I took note of that.

MR PHOSA: All I'm trying to say is, it was not a worthless method - house arrest, they were methods with which you were well equipped - well, methods or individuals with which or whom you could have kept surveillance and known if the persons were not adhering the house arrest.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that was possible but I say on ground level that was not possible to actually manage it on a 24 hour basis, it was virtually impossible in terms of our manpower availability.  May I also add, it was not the only reason that we have absconded the possibility of restricting people, there were other developments.
	What happened - if you now restrict a person like that then you will have boycotts the next day, school boycotts, consumer boycotts and so forth.  You will then have pressure to stop such restrictions, so it was contra-productive in many of the cases especially if you consider the stature of the person, the influence he had and the organisation he belonged to.