Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: The purpose of the first meeting was to inform the people that we were supposed to go with Emma to the sangoma.   We told the people that we couldn't, we set a date and we went to the sangoma and when we arrived there we discovered that the sangoma was using appointments as I have already explained.

ADV SANDI: I am not asking you to repeat all the evidence you have given, I am asking you a very simple question, what was the purpose of convening that meeting at the school?  What was the aim?  Why were these people called, wasn't this a family matter as you say in your statement?  You say it was a family matter?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: People gathered at the school to get information about what happened and also to be told that there were people who were going to fetch comrades from Kwaggafontein to come and burn down our house.  Therefore we wanted them to know that there was such a thing in case it happened.

ADV SANDI: Yes, I follow you.  This crowd of people having been told all this, what were they supposed to do, what were they expected to do, having been informed of all this?  Let's talk about the five litre container of petrol, you said on the way to fetch Emma, you bought some quantity of petrol, did I understand you correctly to say that?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes, I said so.

ADV SANDI: Did you tell anyone of the people who were travelling with you, why you were buying this petrol?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: No, I didn't tell anyone.  I just bought the petrol and I took it to the van or the bakkie.

ADV SANDI: By the way, you said at that stage you were buying this petrol because you were angry and frustrated that your parents had just died?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes, I said so.

ADV SANDI: Are you able to point out any person from the political leadership of your organisation who gave an order that this person should be killed?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: As I have already mentioned that the decision was taken in the long term, and I wasn't there by the time the decision was taken, I was in the Police van after I had dropped my uncle's bakkie at home.

ADV SANDI: I understand you were not opposed to such a decision being taken any way, were you?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

ADV SANDI: Would I be correct to understand you to say that you had no problem with the decision that was taken to burn this woman, would that be correct?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: If I will tell the truth, I will say it is so, I didn't have a problem.  At that time I didn't have a problem on that decision.

ADV SANDI: Can you say why you had no problem with such a decision?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes, I can explain.  As I had already (indistinct), I said when my grandmother ran away, she actually gave me the certain impression and also what she had said after we had captured her.    With all that knowledge which I had at that time, I supported the decision even though they had decided without me, in my absence, because the reason I was not there, was because I had gone home to drop the bakkie.

ADV SANDI: My last question to you would be please tell us everything that you think is political about this incident, the necklacing of Emma Mtsweni, please tell us everything that you think is political about it.

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: I will explain it this way - if what happened was personal, I would have done it alone, I wouldn't have involved the comrades of the area.   Pieterskraal's comrades, the entire Youth, they were present because they were, they believed that informers and witches must be burnt.  Therefore this whole thing, this entire incident was political and also we knew that an injury to one is an injury to all.

ADV SANDI: I thought the question I was asking you was my last one, my last, last question to you now.  Did your parents believe that the deceased, Emma Mtsweni, was a witch?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: I wouldn't have an answer to that because I could never read my parents' mind and since they never opened their mouths about whether Emma was a witch or not, therefore I couldn't know and I cannot say they thought about it.  What I can tell you is that I don't know, if I were to tell you anything different from that, it will be a lie.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but let me put this question differently, do you know if they suspected of anyone of having performed witchcraft against them as the result of which they died?  Do you know if they entertained such a belief?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: No, I have never heard anything, probably it was their secret if they ever suspected anyone because they never told me that somebody was bewitching them.

ADV SANDI: Thank you very much.  Thank you Mr Chairman.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Richard, re-examination?

MR RICHARD: One question, one of three questions.  Why were there so many people at the school on both occasions?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: It was because these people were the followers and supporters of the ANC, whenever there were meetings, they used to come in numbers.

MR RICHARD: When you answered the Committee and said "we wanted the people to know", two questions come out of that, who are the people you refer to as "we"?  The second question is, who did they want to know about the whole Emma story?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: The comrades needed to know, they wanted to know about what was happening about Emma and why we held meetings.

MR RICHARD: Now, you didn't say who is "we", is "we" just you or you and your family, who are the people you talk about as "we"?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: I had knowledge, I didn't need more, but it was myself and the Chairperson, and he was the one who was telling the person who gathered for the meeting.

MR RICHARD: Right, my last question is, did other people see you buy the petrol?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes, I will say they saw me and they didn't say anything.  They didn't even ask me any questions when I bought the petrol.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard.  Mr Mtsweni, you are excused, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR RICHARD: You have answered the question, my next witness or do we adjourn?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will take a shortened lunch adjournment and we will reconvene at two o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard, who is the next applicant?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson, the second person I am calling to apply is Phillip Mfulatwelwa Mtsweni.