Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-03-30

MR MASEKO: It was the name that I knew at the time, I'm not sure if she had any code name.

UNKNOWN: What specifically was the information regarding the university at that stage from the source?  Can you remember?

MR MASEKO: Yes I can still remember.  We knew that there was money, we can get some money there as we're looking for money.  Truly speaking we got the money.

UNKNOWN: Was your information that the university had received registration money and there would be substantial funds available there at the university at that time being the - I think it was the 18th February?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

UNKNOWN: And did it not matter to Beauty Salon, operation Beauty Salon where for example - let me rephrase that - did it not matter through your operation from whom you took the money?

MR MASEKO: Sir can you please repeat your question?

UNKNOWN: Did it not matter to you as the commander of Beauty Salon from whom you took the money?

MR MASEKO: If we get money from the white institution or the same institutions who were oppressing the black, the Africans, and they ...[inaudible] and the people who were actually enjoying Apartheid, it didn't matter as long as we're getting the money from such institutions.

UNKNOWN: Sorry, I don't want to misunderstand you, was the University of Transkei identified as a enemy type or hostile institution in so far as APLA was concerned?  In other words was it seen as an enemy, type of enemy institution which then justified such action?

MR MASEKO: We regarded it as the institution that was oppressing our own people.

UNKNOWN: Now was Mr Letlape Mphalele informed that the University of Transkei had been identified as a target and that there was an operation being planned?

MR MASEKO: I'm not sure if he knew because he was trusting us as commanders that we will be able to identify the targets with using only our initiative so he was not regarding as robots people who would always wait and get information from him all the time.

UNKNOWN: So you would only report back to him once the operation had been completed?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

UNKNOWN: May I ask you this question, was there anyone higher than Mr Mphalele who had given you or your unit the authority or the instruction to carry out repossession type operations?  I'm trying to understand the hierarchy, who was all involved in this instruction to you - people on the ground?

MR MASEKO: I said that we were soldiers and there's what is called chain of command in the army.  There's a commander for the squad, that's responsible for the squad and he's also reporting to another commander from the highest levels of the hierarchy, even Mr Letlape was someone who was getting instruction from Savilo Palmo who was the Director of Operations and Savilo was at the highest level of the hierarchy and the instruction would move from Savilo to Mphalele and to myself.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: When you come to a convenient stage Mr Prior?

UNKNOWN: It may be convenient now, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Then, well we'll now take the adjournment till 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

PATRICK THAPELA MASEKO: (s.u.o.)

UNKNOWN: (continues)
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Maseko as the commander of the particular operation, the UNITRA operation, was it not the and correct me if I'm mistaken, it was not the policy that the commander actually led the operation in the sense that he would participate in the operation personally.  I mean for example he would lead from the front?  Could I get your comment on that?

MR MASEKO: I can't clear clearly with my headphone.
	I can hear now.

UNKNOWN: Alright, let me rephrase the question, am I correct in suggesting - let me put it directly to you - that as the commander of the operation to repossess and in this case to take half a million rands from the university registration officers, that you would have led the operation from the front being the commander in charge of the operation overall?  Is that not correct?

MR MASEKO: Yes I did participate.

UNKNOWN: The question is slightly more specific, I hear what you say, that you stood outside, I'm questioning whether that was correct or not?  Shouldn't the commander of an operation of that magnitude - would he not have entered the premises and been always present to make decisions and to give command should shooting be required or other decisions being made to get away safely?  In other words I would have expected you to have been at the actual site of the attack in other words inside the premises and not waiting outside?

MR MASEKO: I explained that I was not even supposed to be there in that operation, I was involved because I wanted to give them moral support but when it comes to policy a commander is supposed to be there but it depends on the situation and a commander will not have to do something that will not be going together with what is planned in a certain operation.  That is a policy.

CHAIRPERSON: But you told us that you were the person who went and reconnoitred the building beforehand, didn't you?  Do you remember telling us that?

MR MASEKO: I don't even know you, who are you?  I haven't talked to you before, I don't even know you.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm the Chairman of this Committee and you're giving evidence here and you will kindly answer the questions.  Did you not tell us that you went and reconnoitred the building beforehand?

MR MASEKO: I can't remember speaking to you but in most cases you normally instruct people to do a recognisance.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you not tell us that you did a recognisance?

MR MASEKO: I said so.

CHAIRPERSON: You did a recognisance, but you now say you're not even supposed to be there.

MR MASEKO: Can you please repeat your question sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You have told us that you went to do a recognisance, you just agreed to that, but after that you told us you were not even supposed to be there at the scene of the robbery.

MR MASEKO: That's true sir, I said sir.

CHAIRPERSON: So why was it necessary for you to go and do a recognisance, surely the people who were going to carry out the robbery should have done so?

MR MASEKO: I was responsible for the whole unit so it was necessary for me to know what was happening.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Mr Prior.

UNKNOWN: Mr Maseko, your intelligence from your surveillance of - reconnoitring of the target, if I can use that expression, was that there was going to be a substantial amount of money present at the or on the premises on that occasion, the 18th February, is that right>

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

UNKNOWN: And was your intelligence also that there would be security guards in attendance whilst that money was either being collected or counted or processed or whatever was taking place at the university at that time.  That security guards were in attendance obviously to provide security for the staff members of the university involved in that process?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

UNKNOWN: And was your intelligence also that these members or these security guards were armed?

MR MASEKO: Yes, I knew that they would be there but I was not aware if they would be out of uniform, they would be in private.

UNKNOWN: No, not that they would be out of uniform, whether they were armed, whether they had weapons with them, side arms or shotguns or whatever.  Was that not your information, your intelligence?

MR MASEKO: I knew that if they would be there they would be armed but I was not aware that they were not wearing their uniform.

UNKNOWN: And did you also anticipate that should there be resistance from their side that your unit would have to use force to overcome that resistance from maybe their side?

MR MASEKO: In a war you can anticipate that a person can die from your side or from the opposite side.