Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-07

J P MLAMBO: I am saying pistol clubs were encouraged and even by the then government. Even pistol clubs for women.  And it should be noted here that the people that formed the ranks of the Azanian People's Liberation Army, were live human beings. Some coming from the most deprived communities and that was part and parcel of those people who had to constitute the army of liberation.  Therefore, even though principally the question of the war was directed at the armed forces, principally, it was directed against the armed force of the regime.  We did organise and that organisation built up over a time to a point where the regime could say that they have to, the White people in the country have to adapt or die.  That was the message from PW Botha.
 Taking cognisance of the changing relations between the once totally weak, totally hopeless people, that is the African people, who were totally disarmed, even African policemen or soldiers were not initially allowed to carry guns.  Even in 1963, at the time there were general swoops, when we were arrested, that was not possible.
 So the organisation of our own war effort, did help to liberate those African people who felt that Umlungdala, the White man can never be defeated. It built their self-confidence. It liberated them mentally that we can fight and to destroy that White power.  So we were in the process of that.  And so many times did the previous regime boast that we have destroyed Poqo, we have destroyed APLA, but in the mid-1980s they realised that there was a continuing presence and a growing presence of APLA inside the country. That's why you had to get those statements taking, the Whites - I am talking from the then State President - have to adapt or die. 
 So we should grasp those elements. And that we were fighting against the system of White domination which exploited our people economically, which dehumanised them socially, which denied them any political participation in shaping their own destinies.
 So the situation which we are facing, was a very, very complex situation.  Particularly when we were denied the formal channels of challenging the system. It remained to this organisation, the PAC, to even say because we were the first organisation to do this, as an organisation we were the first to say the entire structure in the country, even the government, was totally illegitimate.  Therefore, our struggle was a total one in that particular sense. In the sense that we realised that we have to fight against the system. 
 Many things were taken for granted in the past. But when we stood through our president and other leaders in 1960 to say we refuse to plead, which was totally unprecedented, we had to do it, because we were being called upon by the situation.  
 Therefore, the armed struggle was a continuation of that political war and it did not mean that this was purely perhaps a racist approach, because in the prosecution of our own struggle, there are many African people who also died, who became targets of APLA occasionally, because of the role which they were seen to be playing in the struggle, to oppress our people.
 There are occasions when police stations were attacked or when the instability, for instance in Kadi police station, one of the big attacks, there were about 70 or many who were attacked there.  There was not a single White person there.  
 So that we want that the Truth Commission must please appreciate this particular element, and that when you are fighting a war and sometimes you would not have adequate resources, we would say the armoury of APLA is within Azania itself. The logistics of carrying a lot of guns from far off was a very, very difficult process.  A very costly process.  When you had to pass and no government would allow you just easy passage with your guns.  No government would allow you that.  So we will say you must repossess guns and every household in the country, a White household was a source of guns, as well as the police stations and various other institutions. 
 So these aspects must be properly appreciated.

UNKNOWN: Brig Mphahlele?

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Brig Phitla?

BRIG PHITLA: I think it is important for us to put it on record as well, that we are not oblivious of the fact that there were no White people who genuinely supported our cause.  Unfortunately they didn't have stickers whereby we could identify them in the streets, that this person is supporting our cause. This is an unfortunate situation. But we are not oblivious of that fact, that not all Whites were supportive of this apartheid regime.  APLA has also gone out of its way to make an attempt to recruit amongst the White members of our society. Unfortunately we couldn't make much progress.  We can only boast of two. If I remember well it was Richard Gibson who was eventually made a PAC representative in Algeria, and presently we also have one member who is now in the Defence Force, in the intelligence corps, Capt Petro Salban.  So when we talk about Whites, we are not oblivious of the fact that there were those who were supporting our cause, and we made it an effort to make sure that we draw them into our ranks, so that together we could fight the system.
 But what we are doing here is to generalise it, because those Whites were supportive of our cause, they were basically a minority.  Hence, on their own they couldn't fight it to overthrow the government and the system that they were opposed to. Hence, they were always overwhelmed, as the National Party, hence it was always in power because the majority of those who are supporting its policies, always brought it into power.  So this is basically the correct perspective.

UNKNOWN: Patrick Duncan. Patrick Duncan was the one who was made the representative of - not Davidson, Patrick Duncan. Correction.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, through you, we are very conscious of the existence of the conscientious objectors. I do believe the lawyer is trying to bring it up as part of the resistance by part of the population. I must say personally that even now history is still to convince some of us that whether Hitler didn't enjoy any fanatic support from the masses of Germany.  So I don't think it is up to us to say whether the regime was not supported or not, but I think history will definitely decide in that regard.  I don't know whether we are - we made ourselves very clear in that.

MR GOOSEN: Thank you very much.  In the August submission by the PAC, reference is made to the fact that APLA regarded armed actions as the conduct of politics by other means, and I think that's what we were talking about earlier when the notion of people's war was raised.
 How was this notion reflected in the command structures of APLA and in particular, with the command structures subordinate to the political leadership of the PAC.