Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-05

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr Richard has handed a list over to the Logistics Officer who stated that in her view, she's got difficulty in compiling I take it, it was handed to her to compile a list of those persons being represented.  What I would suggest is that perhaps during the tea time, if she can come and see me and I will identify exactly what those problems are and how extensive they are and we will make all effort to get that list out, because we as a Panel, would also like to know that.

MR DEHAL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I think if that list pursuant to Judge Pillay's request is handed in, then that becomes a part of the record and Mr McBride would like to see it.  Mr Chairperson, I see it is five past eleven or thereabouts, should we take the short recess at this stage?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, this might be a convenient time.  We will take a short tea adjournment and we will recommence at half past eleven.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: (affirmed)

MR RICHARD: Chair, before we commence, Mr Dehal and I started talking over the tea adjournment.  Where we got to, results in this - any implication or inference that there was anything more sinister than us both needing the same Volume at the same time, is withdrawn and I apologise for casting any aspersion or suggesting that anything else could be inferred.   May I ask Mr Dehal whether that satisfies?

MR DEHAL: Mr Chair, he has tendered this to me, it is now on record, I accept that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you gentlemen, I am pleased that that has been ironed out.

MR RICHARD: The second point is as yet unfinalised, the discussions had broken off because of other events, we were discussing lists, numbers and all the rest.  We will pursue that over lunch which is as I see it, not far away and I think let's proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I did have a word with the Logistics Officer and my Secretary about the list and also, I can just put on record that we did discuss the question that was raised earlier this morning, relating to security which will also be addressed by the legal representatives and others at lunch time.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair, nothing further at this point.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dehal?

MR DEHAL: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairperson, may I proceed with Mr McBride's evidence.  Mr McBride, you have been through Annexure F.  I now hand to you a more detailed statement which you have formulated and I hand copies to the respective parties present.

CHAIRPERSON: We will call this statement Exhibit G.

MR DEHAL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.   Mr Chairperson, may I just refer to Exhibit G and place the following on record, it is a document that was hastily finalised late last night into the early hours of this morning and caused to be typed within the short time available this morning, so it may well have some spelling errors and typographical errors, I apologise if there are same.  I see that page 11 is duplicated in as much as the contents are not the same, so what I have done is caused one page to remain as page 11, with the number thereof at the bottom, and the next page to be numbered 11(a), if you don't mind.  I apologise for that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Dehal, and we will not be too critical about spellings and obvious typing errors.

MR DEHAL: I am indebted to you, thank you.  Mr McBride you now have Exhibit G before you, perhaps if you can have the microphone on.  May I just begin by asking you to look at A1, pages 6 to 9, sorry 6 to 10.  Do you see the list of incidents as it is called on page 6, recorded thereunder enumerated 1 to 21 ending on page 10?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, I have that.

MR DEHAL: And is it correct that Exhibit G seeks to address each of those acts, operations in the order in which it is found on pages 6 to 10?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, to the best of my knowledge, this is all the operations I have been involved in.

MR DEHAL: And of course in Exhibit G, you address the operations that relate to you for example incident 1, 2 on page 6 and indeed item 3 does not relate to you?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct yes.

MR DEHAL: And the first operation that you were involved in, would be loosely the Fairvale Senior Secondary School, arson attack, correct?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct, yes.

MR DEHAL: Now, let's begin with Exhibit G.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I just want to add on Exhibit G, the first incident, Fairvale Senior Secondary School, arson attack, was not part of Special Ops operations, it was before I was formally recruited into Special Operations.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  I take it that the content of Exhibit G relative to this count, deals with that aspect?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, that is correct.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  Now Mr McBride, I don't know whether you want to read the document, Exhibit G, perhaps you should and wherever you wish to add things, again as indicated previously, if you could please just stop and indicate that you are now adding aspects additional to things typed within Exhibit G.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Thank you, I prefer to read it in total.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr McBride, just before you proceed, was your recruitment into MK simultaneous with your recruitment into Special Ops?  When you say that you were not a member of Special Ops at the time of the commission of this, were you a member of MK at that stage, or was it prior to that as well?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I was a - I assisted an MK unit in the distribution of pamphlets.  They did not issue directives in regard to this.  This unit was formed in response to instructions given by the ANC to the general public of South Africa who regarded themselves as patriots.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  Mr McBride, if you will then look at Exhibit G on paragraph 1, is it correct that you now deal in paragraph 1 with the Fairvale Senior Secondary School, arson attack?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, that is correct.

MR DEHAL: And this incident is dealt with just for the purposes of cross-reference in your amnesty application, on page 106 of bundle A1, paragraph (g)?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, that is correct.

MR DEHAL: And for the sake of completeness and cross-reference, it is dealt with on page 6 of bundle A1 as item 4?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: Yes, you may now read that paragraph.
MR McBRIDE
	"This is an incident that I believe occurred on or about the 3rd of September 1985.  There were no injuries to any persons in this operation.   The persons involved in this operation with my unit were Naziem Cassim, Alan Pearce, Matthew Lecordier, Marson Sharply and myself."

MR DEHAL: Sorry Mr McBride, if you will go a little slower because it is being interpreted.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr McBride, Marson Sharply, we have heard the name Sharply before, is that ...

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: No, this is Marson, Gastor's brother.