Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-23

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No, I'm not going to tell you.  You'll have to extract it.  I come here on Thursday, I am seen by two people representing two families and their first concern is "Have you seen Mr Botha's statement?" and I am concerned, "How long is this going to take?"  Mr Botha starts giving evidence.  Breaks are concentrating on the evidence of Mr Botha.  There are two versions and you will recall that I left in the middle of the cross-examination because the TRC could not give me a schedule when they want me here.  So it is in that context that reference was made to material that I have, neither of the two legal representatives had the time to look at my information.  And I have come back this morning under the same circumstances, Sir.  I come back this morning, through a phone call over the weekend to say, be here in the morning, short cross-examination and then  you are in the box.  So I fly in at 8 o'clock and right now at lunch time I spent more time phoning my office in Pretoria, in Johannesburg to say "I can't be there tomorrow.  Cancel my this appointment and that appointment, including the Governor of the Central Bank".

MR VISSER: Yes, I just hope that you're not going to blame us for that.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No, I never do that.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Now looking at Exhibit J, I have had no time, as you will appreciate, to study this document.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Sure.

MR VISSER: But may I point out some obvious features to you?  Would you look at page 2 of Exhibit J (1) paragraph 2 (8)?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Yes, Sir.

MR VISSER: Why do you say, the person MK Zandile is identical to Charles Zakhele Ndaba, because that was your evidence?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I know Charles Ndaba's codename in MK was MK Zakhele.

MR VISSER: But that's Zandile.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Zandile is, they are saying it here.

MR VISSER: You misreading it, Mr Maharaj, let me read it for you and I'll interpret it as we go along
"Later he was through Lulu and MK Zandile and black man Zakhele"
he was identical to Charles Zakhele, there are two different people that they spoke about.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Correct.

MR VISSER: Now I'm not sure what the point was that you tried to make.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: The point that I'm trying to make is Zakhele, codename is identified as Charles Ndaba.

MR VISSER: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: That the enemy, my enemy at that time, agents are desperate to establish the identity of Zakhele.

MR VISSER: No, that's not what this paragraph says, with all due respect.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No, wait a minutes.  It says, Zakhele identical with Charles Zakhele Ndaba.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And the reference no ...(intervention)

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Hold on.  "Foto uitkenning gedoen"

MR VISSER: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: You don't do a "Foto uitkenning" unless you want to identify him.

MR VISSER: Well of course not, Mr Maharaj, but you know what this says, quite clearly and you will appreciate that, what this man says is that I had Lulu and MK Zandile and they identified Charles Zakhele Ndaba from a photograph in a terrorist photo album.  That's all they're saying.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: And they go on, paragraph 39 (10) to say: "Documents marked B, C and D  have all been written by Charles Ndaba."
Zakhele that they have identified in the photograph is now linked with certain documents that they have brought to Port Natal.

MR VISSER: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: They establish his identity plus his authority.

MR VISSER: So?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: So, they are trying to ring-fence him for action.  They're ring-fencing him for action because in June operations are carried out against Charles Ndaba in Swaziland.

MR VISSER: But Mr Maharaj, this is the 14th of February 1988.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Sure.

MR VISSER: It's the beginning of the year.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: MK didn't start in February 1989.

MR VISSER: That's not the point.  You must say that Mr Botha had already recruited Mr Charles Ndaba before that date for any of your evidence to make any sense in this regard.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No, sir, it doesn't make sense.

MR VISSER: That's my point, it doesn't make sense.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I say, Mr Botha had not recruited him.

MR VISSER: Precisely.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: But if he had recruited him, he would not appear with the number S4/62573.  Well he would appear with PN or G.

MR VISSER: So we have both now established, have we not, Mr Maharaj, that all that we can derive from this paragraph 2.8 is that by the 14th of February 1988, if your inferences are correct, and for purposes of argument, I will concede that they are, Mr Charles had not been recruited as an informer by Botha at that time.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Definitely.

MR VISSER: If that is all you wanted to say we would ...(intervention).

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No, no, I'm saying more.

MR VISSER: No, no, we'll get to that.  We'll get to that.  You see, Mr Maharaj, as I understand your evidence, and again I haven't read through this document, but I'm bound to do so tonight, your point is that based on the evidence of Gen Steyn, that a Port Natal number would have been given with a prefix PN to an informer, you make a point thereof that Charles Ndaba could not have been an informer in the minds of the Security Branch of Port Natal because he was never given a PN number, do I understand you correctly?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Do you want me to say yes, no, or answer you?

MR VISSER: Something like that, yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Can I answer you?

MR VISSER: Please go ahead Mr Maharaj, you're not going to be concerned with anything I'm going to advise you, so do whatever you like.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Sir, I've argued that I agree that  a PN number goes for a confirmed informer.  I accept Gen Steyn's view that a G would be for somebody that has just been approached and still needs to be verified as to reliability.

MR VISSER: Yes.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: I'm saying that a series of documents here show that Capt Botha, who claims that he recruited Charles Ndaba, was consistently circulating the identity of Charles to other agencies of the Security Forces, whom he says would have likely eliminated him.

MR VISSER: That's another point.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: No, no, but precisely because of that, it makes it incomprehensible that Capt Botha should be circulating the identity of Charles Ndaba to other sections including the killing section.

MR VISSER: Mr Maharaj, that is one point.  Was your other point not that had Botha recruited Charles Ndaba as an informer, he would have had and he would have referred to a PN informant number for Charles Ndaba.  Isn't that you other point?

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: And/or would have said "Nie van veiligheid belang".

MR VISSER: I see.  Yes, that's a third point.  Let's deal with the middle point now first.  Please turn to page 11 of Exhibit J (1) and you referred the Committee to paragraph 41.  I want to refer you to paragraph 41.  Now I read there, in plain language, "Ndaba Charles Zakhele, MK Zwelakhe" and then there's a reference number, obviously to a file or something, I don't know, I haven't had an opportunity of talking to Botha about this, and then there is a division reference, which is a PN reference.

SATHYANDRANATH RAGUNANAN MAC MAHARAJ: Very different reference.  What is says there is PNV/V/139.

MR VISSER: Whatever.