Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-22

MR NEL: Mr Chairman, if you'll just bear with me for one second, I'm just trying to find a certain page.
	Mr Mthembu, in conclusion I would like to put it to you that this incident did not happen the way you described it happened, and why I'm saying that is as I've stated before the police were in possession of a search warrant after information had been substantiated.  Mr Botes who was one of the policemen on the foreground knew Mr Vincent Shandu personally and it would have been highly unlikely that him and his group with a search warrant would without any reason attack the occupants of that particular house.

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Maybe they gave the warrant of search to Mr Shandu, it's Mr Shandu who can answer to this.  I cannot say a thing because I did not even see the warrant of search.

MR NEL: Where did you point the firearm out to the police?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: The firearm was in the kitchen near a cupboard, a kitchen cupboard.

MR NEL: How far was the kitchen from where you had fired with the firearm?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: There is a passage, a short passage from the dining-room to the kitchen, it is just a short distance.

CHAIRPERSON: From the dining-room did you say?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is the dining-room?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I would say the dining-room was facing the north.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the dining-room also referred to as the lounge?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, we can also refer to it as the lounge.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, if it's of any value I have a scale sketch of the house if it will help with this cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] handed in as Exhibit C wasn't it?

MR NEL: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, there's Exhibit C in this bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is off.

MR NEL: ...[inaudible] in a psychiatric report, a sketch plan of the area and a plan of the house as Exhibits A, B and C.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, it doesn't appear as if my learned friend has been provided with a copy of those exhibits and they're not in the bundle.

MR NEL: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, is the sketch that I'm showing you now, is that part of the exhibit?

CHAIRPERSON: It seems that the room that he's referring to is the one marked A which is to the north of the house and there's that short passage which goes to the kitchen.

MR NEL: When you had fired with the firearm, Mr Mthembu, in which room of the house were you?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I was standing at the door, the door that is facing the windows to the dining-room or the window to the dining-room.

MR NEL: And did you then throw the gun into the kitchen, the firearm?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR NEL: Mr Chairperson, thank you, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you not challenging his version as to how he came to be shot?

MR NEL: Sir, I'm only acting for Mr van Schalkwyk and he did not take part in the shooting and he does not know how that happened.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Mthembu, at what stage on that morning did you become aware that the people outside the house were members of the South African Police?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I only knew about that after they had stopped shooting and started shouting, telling us that they were police.

ADV PRIOR: Is that when you threw the firearm into the kitchen or got rid of the firearm?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, that was the time when I threw the gun to the kitchen.

ADV PRIOR: You didn't want to be found in possession of this firearm, is that correct?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Because yes, the police had already identified themselves as police.

ADV PRIOR: And you knew that you never had a licence for this firearm, it was an unlawful, you were unlawful possession of the firearm?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, I did not have a lawful licence for the firearm.

ADV PRIOR: Tell me, when you fired this firearm did you, my understanding is that you shot through the door of the premises, is that correct?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I shot through the window.

ADV PRIOR: Could you see who you were shooting at or were you simply just firing blindly?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I shot towards the direction from which the shots from outside were being fired.  I was actually shooting through the window that I was facing, the dining-room window.

ADV PRIOR: Were there curtains on the window or any covering on the window?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, there were curtains.

ADV PRIOR: My question is, were you taking aim at a specific target or were you just simply firing through the window in order maybe to frighten people off?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I was shooting randomly through the window hoping that after the attackers had realised that there was a retaliation they would flee.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Prior, you are obviously aware that this happened at night?

ADV PRIOR: ...[inaudible]

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, which was still dark.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, I've no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Which room did you sleep in?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I was using the dining-room for my bedroom.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the front room with a door leading outside?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say you heard no knocking on that door?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you got up in what direction did you move?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I woke up and ran into the passage.

CHAIRPERSON: And there's a wall along the side of the passage, between the passage and the dining-room?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you fired how many shots out of the window from around this wall?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I fired three times.

CHAIRPERSON: And then what happened?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: After that I would say the shooting was continuing from outside and when the shooting stopped that is when they identified themselves as the police and they indicated that we should also show them the firearm that we were using to shoot them with from inside.

CHAIRPERSON: So they started shooting while you were still asleep, went on shooting while you got up and went behind the wall and fired at them and then went on shooting some more and only after that told you "We are the police"?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, that was after the shooting stopped, that is when they identified themselves as the police and instructed that the door be opened.

CHAIRPERSON: How many people were there in the   house?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: I would like to refer to them one after another so that we can establish as to how many they were.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: There were eight of us in the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were they?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: It was Mr Shandu and his wife and three of their children, Vuzi, Vuvu and myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember you gave evidence before us before?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said there, it's recorded at page 15
"The gunshots we heard in the beginning when they started to shoot at and also when I shot back at them, the gunshots continued until the owner of the house started calling out, Mr Shandu."

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes, the owner of the house started calling out, that was after the gunshots had come to an end and that is the time when the police ordered that the door be opened.

CHAIRPERSON: You see that is not what you said last time, last time you said
"The gunshots continued until the owner of the house started calling out."

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: No.  It is true that the owner of the house started calling out but he only did that after the gunshots had stopped.  He did not call out at the time when the gunshots were being fired.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR NEL: Mr Chairperson, sorry, there is one question I forgot to ask Mr Mthembu, may I have your leave just to put the one question to him?
	You did say that everybody and yourself believed that Mr Shandu's life was so to speak in danger and that is why you had to guard him?

DUMISANI MTHEMBU: Yes.