Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR AMEEN: Sorry.  My understanding was that - just before you proceed with your questions - my understanding was that when I put this to him, he actually agreed with the way I put it to him that he had been going from room to room and that he did use it.  Is that a correct understanding?  I just want to clear that with the committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Well that could have been an impression but let me tell how I understood this.  You put it to him in the plural, you put it to him that according to your instructions you used a pair of pliers on these people.  You put it in the plural and then I interjected and tried to find out what, are you referring to him as a particular individual and his answer was, yes.  Now he agreed to doing that so in some sense you are right in saying that an impression was created that the pliers was applied on more than one person because you had put it in the plural and his answer was in the affirmative and for my part that impression stands until and unless Mr Tloubatla deals with it in one way or another.

MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman, sorry ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Of course that's just my personal impression.

MR AMEEN: Thank you.  Sorry Adv Bosman, Malan.

CHAIRPERSON: The only thing on which he did not commit himself and simply said it was possible was whether the other people had also used the pliers, then he said it was a possibility.

MR MALAN: Chair I just wanted to know from Mr Hlasa, he said that he didn't in his evidence yesterday - sorry, Mr Mphoreng - he said that in your evidence yesterday and this morning you did not refer to the pliers, but you admit it now.  That is what you said, is that correct?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I admit that I used a pair of pliers.

MR MALAN: My question now is did you remember only now or did you know, did you remember before, that you used the pliers?  Could I put the question differently.  Did you hide the fact from us earlier and now admit to it or what is the reason?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: Chairperson I was not hiding out this point.  If I intended to hide it I would never have admitted to it now.

MR MALAN: You were asked about the taking off of clothes of people, giving them other clothes.  You say it was possible but you have no recollection.  I mean in any assault, in assaulting a person, you remember hitting him with a bottle on the head but you don't remember applying the pliers.  You don't remember taking off clothes.  I guess can you comment that, how are we to understand that?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I did admit that I applied a pair of pliers on a person and whether I removed his clothes or I applied it whilst his clothes were on, but I admitted that I used a pair of pliers.

MR MALAN: I will try a last time.  Is it not more serious to use a pair of pliers on a person's private parts than hitting a person with a bottle over his head and if I were the torturer I think I would have remembered the more serious parts of the torture and not the less serious.  What is your comment on that?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I agree Chairperson I did not mention yesterday but I am mentioning it now and I am not under pressure that I mentioned it, yes it is an important point to be mentioned.

MR MALAN: Sir, with your permission a last time.  Why did you not mention it yesterday?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I did not mention it yesterday, I believe it's one of the important points that must be mentioned.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we should adjourn now until 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR TLOUBATLA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mphoreng on the question of the pliers.  Did you use it, I mean on how many of the victims did you use that pliers?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: (s.u.o).  I used it on one victim.

MR TLOUBATLA: There was a question that how could the survivors possibly have know that you were using the pliers if they were not in the same room with you.  Do you have an explanation?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: I don't know how they knew.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Siema and Mr (indistinct) were not arrested in this incident.  Do you have an explanation why they were not arrested?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: It's because there names did not appear with those of the people who had been wanted.

MR TLOUBATLA: But you personally knew that they were part and parcel of ... (inaudible - end of tape).  Why did you not mention this to the police?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: As members of AZAPO we were not supposed to disclose information.

MR TLOUBATLA: So this was a deliberate political act to try and protect Mr Siema and Mr (indistinct)?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: That is correct, it was a way of safeguarding the information.

MR TLOUBATLA: When you left the country who was responsible for your leaving the country?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: There is one comrade called comrade Max he was an AZANLA operative.  He was in exile at that time but he was here with a specific aim of taking us to join AZANLA in exile.

MR TLOUBATLA: So do I understand you correctly that after this incident the organisation intervened and removed you to go into exile?

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: We were assisted by the organisation to go into exile.

MR TLOUBATLA: Now Mr Mphoreng, looking with hindsight, do you have anything to say to the families of your victims.  Is there any message, do you have anything to say about this incident, in particular to the families of the victims?  That is with hindsight, looking now, seeing what happened just from a moral point of view.

MOTLANA ATASIOS MPHORENG: What happened in 1986 should have never happened.  It was not our style to kill other people, it was just unfortunate that their children, their brothers were killed because of the political problems that existed between UDF and AZAPO.  It is regrettable and very unfortunate that they lost their loved ones.  I know how they feel, I've also lost people very close to me in the past, I know the pain of losing a family member and I understand the pain they are feeling and the way in which their children died.

MR TLOUBATLA: Mr Chairman thank you, I don't have any further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TLOUBATLA

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused, you can stand down Mr Mphoreng.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hlasa would you please come back.

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: We are calling you back because you only gave your evidence in chief and Mr Ameen on behalf of the victims has not as yet had the opportunity to put questions to you.  It is for that reason that you have been recalled to the witness box.  Mr Ameen.

MR AMEEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Hlasa in your evidence yesterday you said that meetings were held between AZAPO and the UDF leadership to resolve differences.  Is that correct?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: That is correct.

MR AMEEN: And that you personally attended two such meetings, not as part of leadership, but as an ordinary member of AZAPO?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: That is true.

MR AMEEN: And you understood what was being discussed at these meetings?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: That is correct.

MR AMEEN: You also said that these meetings were not successful because the people at grass roots level did not understand what was being discussed up there at leadership level?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: That is true.

MR AMEEN: But you were present at these meetings and you understood perfectly what was being discussed here and what the leadership of both organisations were trying to achieve.  Is that correct?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: That is correct.

MR AMEEN: You understood clearly that (indistinct) and violence was wrong and that your own leadership disapproved of it.  Is that correct?

PITSO JOSEPH HLASA: That is correct.