Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

CHAIRPERSON: I think we've received evidence that the removal of the body took place quite late because they waited for people to go to sleep and everything to be quiet and still and I certainly got the impression that there was quite a long period of time that elapsed before the body was actually taken out when every - when you and Mr du Preez at least thought everyone was asleep.  that's the evidence that we've received.  Are you disagreeing with that or?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, that is the correct evidence.

MR WILLS: From the time that Ms Khubeka arrived, I mean the evidence to my mind is that she, the interrogation commenced almost immediately on her arrival at the Winkelspruit base?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, that's so, Sir.

MR WILLS: Yes and that was at dusk?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I think it was a little later than dusk, it was darkness now.

MR WILLS: Okay well, let's say a little bit later and you say the interrogation lasted for an hour?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Approximately an hour to my recollection.

MR WILLS: Yes and then half an hour later you were told to remove her body when everyone went to sleep?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman half an hour later after her death I knew I was to be involved in the removal of her body.

MR WILLS: that wasn't your evidence earlier.  You said you went in about half an hour after you'd been told that she was dead.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Did I say that, Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Correct me if I'm wrong.  My impression Mr Wills was that he was told by Taylor five to ten minutes after the death, he estimate, about the death and then there was a discussion about the body, he said a very brief discussion, more in the form of a directive and then about 30 minutes after that he went into the room for the purposes of removing the body.  I don't know if there is any time period, perhaps you can ask, between first being informed of the death and the decision, or him being informed about taking the body away.

MR WILLS: Yes, my understanding from your evidence is that you were told of the death within 5 to 10 minutes of it occurring?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I believe that's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: And then when were you told what to do with the body?  How long after that were you told what to do with the body?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, approximately half an hour or so after that, I was informed that I would be required to assist in the disposal of the body.

MR WILLS: Yes and then half an hour later you went and you did that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, no, no, Mr Chairman, that's not correct.

MR WILLS: Well that's what you said, with respect.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Well then there was a bit of confusion between yourself and I, Sir.

MR WILLS: There's no confusion with me, that's what's on record.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Well, it's cleared up now is it not, Sir.

MR WILLS: Are you changing your version now?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: What I've said now is the way I understand it now, Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Is it not so that you're changing your version because you realise the implication of my questioning is, if you only removed her body half and hour or an hour after, sorry I'll rephrase.  If her body was removed in the time span that you indicated that it was, the interrogation process would have lasted a lot longer than an hour.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman.  I don't quite understand ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, yes.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry Mr Chairman.  This witness has not spoken about removing the body.  He said he got the order and he went into the room.  That's as far as his evidence has gone, as I understood it.  He hasn't given you any indication as to how long he remained in the room before the body was removed.

CHAIRPERSON: You see my note, and it might be wrong and we can always listen to the record, I only went into the room after I was told to assist in removing the body.  Only went into the room to remove the body.  That was after half an hour after being told to remove the body.  That's my note.

MR VISSER: That's precisely correct, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: My point is, let me just put it to you.  If the body, or if Ms Khubeka arrived alive at about dusk or just after dusk and if she was interrogated for an hour, we would say in winter that might bring us to half past 7.  She was interrogated, then you were told about her death 10 minutes later, that takes us to quarter to 8,  Then maybe half an hour later you were told to dispose of the body and then half an hour later you went in, that means before 9 o'clock at night you would have removed the body and everybody there would have been asleep.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I haven't said that at all, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: How long did you remain in the room when you went to collect the body?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, I went and saw the body.  I went and saw Ms Khubeka dead then I left the room and we waited for everybody to eventually retire and what have you and then we removed the body properly.

MR WILLS: With respect Mr Wasserman, I asked you that question specifically, I said to you:  "After the death of Ms Khubeka, how many times did you go into the room, once or twice?"  and you said:  "Once".  Can you comment?  are you changing your evidence now to say twice?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I'm not changing my evidence Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Well can you reconcile this?  You either went in there once or twice.  Can you tell us which one it is?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I went in to see when, about 30 minutes after - it was like this, Mr Chairman.  After Mr Taylor told me I would be involved in the removal and the disposal of the body, I went in and I saw her lying there.

MR WILLS: Why did you go in and see her lying there?  For what reason?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I had to go in and see, Mr Chairman, I'm about to be involved in the removal and the placement of her in a vehicle.  I was already thinking of making plans of the job that I was now given.

MR WILLS: And was du Preez with you?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I can't recall du Preez being with me, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Was he back then?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I cannot recall if he was back yet.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, then proceed.  You were saying what happened.  So you went to look at the body and then?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Then I merely, I left the room and remained at the Winkelspruit camp with the other members until it was decided it was late enough and quiet enough to place the body of Ms Khubeka into the boot of du Preez's Nissan Skyline vehicle.

MR WILLS: Thank you, I just place on record that that's a different version, but be that as it may, I'll continue with something else.  the length of the interrogation, you say in your statement it lasted about an hour, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I recall approximately about an hour, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Could it have been longer?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I don't think so, Mr Chairman.  I cannot be sure but an hour is approximate.

MR WILLS: You obviously applied your mind very seriously to this when you made this statement?  It's a serious matter.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: As much as I could recall, I placed before the Chairman.

MR WILLS: Yes.  So you would disagree with people who said that the interrogation lasted 15 to 30 minutes?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, I believe that that is too short a description for the time, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Now, correct me if I'm wrong.  Sorry, do you speak Zulu?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman

MR WILLS: Okay.  I won't ask that question, you've assisted me.  You went in and out the interrogation room?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: When you went in, how long, what periods did you stay in?