Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

JUDGE WILSON: Why didn't you tell us about Mr Harrington hitting Mr Jama's head against the stone?

MR MADLALA: It is possible that if I remember well, I think I did mention that.  I did make mention that that happened, because even in court I did say that Mr Harrington committed that or did that.
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JUDGE WILSON: /...
JUDGE WILSON	96	MR MADLALA

JUDGE WILSON: You don't seem to have mentioned it today.

MR MADLALA: Yes, I said that at the time that he was throttling him, they both fell on top of the rocks and he continued hitting his head on the rocks until such time as Mr Jama was still.

JUDGE WILSON: You did not say that today, Mr Madlala.

MR MADLALA: I thought I had made mention of that, that at the time that he was continuing to throttle him with his belt and when he wasn't moving it was after he had hit him on the rocks and at the same time throttling him.

JUDGE WILSON: How many times did Mr Harrington hit Mr Jama's head against the rocks?

MR MADLALA: It was quite several times because he kept on throttling him and hitting him against the rock and he kept on lifting him and hitting  him against the rock, and at that time Mr Jama was moving until such time that he was still.

JUDGE WILSON: He was lifting him up and banging his head down against the rocks until he was still?

MR MADLALA: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: You had been ... that the ANC was no longer an illegal organisation, because you were sent to protect them.

MR MADLALA: No, at that time we had not been told because had we been told that the ANC had a right to voice itself we wouldn't have gone there, but we were told that we were supposed to go there.  We were not told that the ANC had been unbanned.

JUDGE WILSON: Are you serious about that, Mr Madlala?

MR MADLALA: I had absolutely no knowledge of that at this time because we didn't even listen to the radio or read
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JUDGE WILSON	97	MR MADLALA
newspapers because we were so busy doing our jobs.

JUDGE WILSON: And your job was to guard the meeting that was addressed by Mr Harry Gwala.

MR MADLALA: That is true.

JUDGE WILSON: You were guarding that meeting weren't you?

MR MADLALA: That is true.

JUDGE WILSON: And are you seriously suggesting we should believe that you thought the ANC was an unlawful organisation on that day?

MR MADLALA: I'll put it this way.  It is true that I did not know that the ANC had been unbanned at that time.  We were still using the same methods that we were taught and I was still continuing to use the very same  methods because at that time I believed what I was doing was right, I knew that the ANC was our enemy.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Madlala, I just want to know which came first.  Mr Jama was submitted to quite an extensive search by the special constables, and at the same time he made utterances to the effect that the police had to be killed like the killing which had happened at KwaShange.  Now what came first?  Was he first submitted to the search and thereafter made utterances about the KwaShange incident?

MR MADLALA: What took place first of all was that he was searched and he only uttered that at the time that he had already been searched.

SISI KHAMPEPE: To whom were the utterances directed?

MR MADLALA: He was addressing the people that he was with, that is the group, but he was looking at Mr Mkhizi directly.  That's when I heard him saying it because I had just searched Mr Mkhizi at that time and I conveyed the message to Mr Harrington that this person was making these
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MS KHAMPEPE	98	MR MADLALA
utterances.

SISI KHAMPEPE: If I am not mistaken, I heard Mr Harrington state that he found the diary and he found the diary when him and yourself were searching the deceased whilst he was in the back of the van and that diary was found in the pocket of the T-shirt that the deceased was wearing.

MR MADLALA: Yes, I would like to explain.  When they searched at first they didn't get anything on the body of the deceased.  When I first saw the diary it was in the possession of Mr Harrington and Mr Dhlamini and that was inside the van and at that time I didn't touch Mr Jama because I was holding the doors of the van and they were busy harassing, assaulting and doing all sorts of things to Mr Jama.  I never even conducted a search.  Even the first time, I did not search him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... what was contained in the diary, was it Mr Harrington or Mr Dhlamini?

MR MADLALA: The person who was reading what was inside the diary was Dhlamini because Dhlamini knew the leaders of the IFP because he is also a member of the IFP.

SISI KHAMPEPE: ... what was contained in the diary written on?

MR MADLALA: The diary was written in Zulu.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So Mr Dhlamini was interpreting the contents of the diary to Mr Harrington.

MR MADLALA: That is true.   Mr Dhlamini was a matriculant, so he did not have a problem speaking to Mr Harrington.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Madlala.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us why that diary was thrown out of the van?

MR MADLALA: I wouldn't know.  As I had already explained
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CHAIRMAN	99	MR MADLALA
that I did not even see them throwing the diary out of the window and after that I did not continue to ask as to where the diary was.  Even when they threw it, maybe Mr Harrington threw it together with Mr Dhlamini because I only saw it when they were having it in their hands.  As to where it ended I have no idea.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you learn that the ANC was no longer banned?

MR MADLALA: I only knew that after the case and it is after quite some time that we had been convicted, that's only when I got wind of the fact that the ANC had been unbanned as well as that other organisations were also unbanned and people could join an organisation of their choice.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you to mean that if you had known  on that day that the ANC had been unbanned, you would not have done what you did?

MR MADLALA: Yes, I could say that I wouldn't go there because I would have known that there were negotiations and people were free to join an organisation of their choice and I believe that Mr Jama could be alive today if I was as clear as I was after the case and that negotiations were taking place and I only knew that after I could read newspapers and listen to the radio to find out what was happening in the outside world.

CHAIRPERSON: To be specific, you would not have taken part in the assault on Mr Jama if you had known at the time that the ANC had been unbanned?

MR MADLALA: Yes, I can say that, I would not have taken part because all this that took place is because of the indoctrination that we went through especially with regard to the matter of KwaShange massacre, but had I know that now
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CHAIRMAN	100	MR MADLALA
the organisations had been unbanned, I would have realised that at the Police Force we were being used and the aim that they had to fulfil they wanted to use us to fulfil that aim
so that there wouldn't be any negotiations.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Madlala, this group of young boys were harassed in the sense that you stopped them and searched them but what I don't understand is, why did it not stop there?  Why did you single out the deceased and put him into the van?