Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-14

MR PRETORIUS: Immediately prior to the shooting, main shooting incident after you had now positioned yourself at the corner of King George and Plein Street did you see two policemen in uniform running from the position where you were up in King George Street towards the corner of King George and de Villiers Street and in an attempt to stop the marchers entering further down in King George Street?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: No.

MR PRETORIUS: You concentrated on the marchers. Is that correct?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Hundred percent.

MR PRETORIUS: If there were two policemen in front of those marchers can you afford any reason why you did not see them?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Yes I can give you a reason.

MR PRETORIUS: Go ahead?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: As I have said before here that my sector of observation there was an obstruction of pillars. I couldn't see further up. My observation point was from Jabu's Bakery up to Plein Street. That is all. Besides that no I couldn't see.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words the policemen may have been there but not in his line of vision.

MR PRETORIUS: I do understand Mr Chair. However if Mr Gary Kruser and the policemen spoke to each other there you would have heard it.

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: How sure are you about that?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chair I am not speaking of during the fire. It is immediately prior to anything that happens. It is while the crowd is still at the top of King George and de Villiers Street before any firing started. Mr Gary Kruser had a conversation or a short conversation with the policemen at the corner where he was. Now (...intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Pretorius you heard the noise this morning when a small group of people came chanting past outside this building. I mean the position that the Chair is putting to you there was a big group of people chanting. It is really not fair to expect him to remember small details about who spoke to who in that sort of environment.

CHAIRPERSON: And I have heard that he just didn't see the policemen talking to anybody because he didn't see the police. Are you suggesting that he ought to have seen the policemen talking to Mr Kruser?

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chair I am trying also to point out to the Committee members the observations of this witness do not or are in conflict with some facts which both parties accept. That goes to the credibility of this witness Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: It could be faulty recollection isn't it?

MR PRETORIUS: Then this witness can explain that to me when I put the question to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Put your question to him.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman I notice that it is four 'o clock is this a convenient time to adjourn?

CHAIRPERSON: No I think we would like to carry on. I want to if you can finish we would like to carry on until it is done.

MR PRETORIUS: Thank you. At the time that the shots were fired at you which you perceived that were fired at you when you were still at the corner of King George and Plein Street did you see any marcher firing shots in your direction?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: No.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chair I will just put it to this witness I will look for the pages later on. During the inquest you testified that you saw this person which you referred to now as the person with the pistol who shot at the top of the parapet. Thereafter you said that you heard shots and those shots were directed at the guards at the corner of King George and Plein Street and you then saw a marcher with a pistol which you then said fired shots in the direction of the guards at the corner of King George and Plein Street. Do you recall that?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Hundred percent.

MR PRETORIUS: The position has now been given to me. It is

MR PRETORIUS: at 3952. This is now whilst you were at the corner of King

MR PRETORIUS: George and Plein Street. I am going to read as from line 20: -

MR PRETORIUS: "More towards Plein Street, the pillars closer to Plein

MR PRETORIUS: towards the right?

WITNESS: Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: And you were in a prone position. Is that correct?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: 		And Mondli Zuma?

WITNESS: He was on my side more that is to my left.

MR PRETORIUS: 		Was he also in a prone position or was he standing up?

WITNESS: I think he was in a kneeling position.

MR PRETORIUS: 		Now was it whilst you were in this prone position that these shots were fired at you?

WITNESS: Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: How do you know these shots were fired at you? -- When the guns are pointed at you and the shots are discharged it will definitely fly past you. Even above you.

MR PRETORIUS: 		Is that what happened?

WITNESS: Yes."

MR PRETORIUS: Have you read it with me Mr Khumalo? Did that happen or did that not happen on that particular day?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: As I have said I will still repeat it again. I have never seen a person shooting at us. I heard a bullet whistling passing us. The only person which I have seen pointing the gun at me it was that person with a red T-shirt. Then another one which I have seen shooting is the other one which was shooting at the parapet. Not at us.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman again this is totally incorrect. I have read the portion of the evidence. It is quite clear from that, that according to the evidence given at the inquest he actually saw a person in a prone position firing shots at him. Sorry whilst he was in the prone position he saw this person firing the shots at him. I will again leave that for address later.
	Mr Khumalo in your application for amnesty I am referring to page 69 Mr Chairman, when you answered to paragraph on page 69. Have you got that in front of you? The copy that was handed to us it has got in the middle there of what apparently appears that there was several lines written in there and thereafter it was deleted to such an extent that one cannot now see what was written in there. Is yours the same? Can you explain that Mr Khumalo or what was written in there? Mr Khumalo when you answer the question could just please press the microphone?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I can't remember sorry.

MR PRETORIUS: Can you recall whether it was like that when you signed your affidavit or your application?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I think it was like this.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Khumalo the objectors whom I and Dr van Wyk appear will also state that there was no attack that took place on Shell House on that particular day. That they were only armed with traditional weapons. They did not carry firearms and that they were shot at for no reason at all by the guards at Shell House. Your reaction to that?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I think also that is their democratic right to say so.

MR PRETORIUS: I put it to you further that, that version is actually confirmed by independent witnesses such as Mr Dias, Mr Stevens and Mr von Eggedy. Do you reply to that?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: That is their own observation.

MR PRETORIUS: I have got no further questions to this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRETORIUS

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Khumalo the Lancet Hall offices were the regional head office of the ANC. Is that correct?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Yes.

UNKNOWN: When you went there on that specific morning did you enquire from anybody. Well let me put it this way firstly. You went there to collect information and to ascertain what happened there. Is that correct?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: No.

UNKNOWN: I understood your evidence today when Mr Tipp lead your evidence and he asked you; you went to Lancet Hall to collect information and you said yes. Did I understand you wrongly there?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I think what I have said is that to go and check in that vicinity what was taking place. Which means it is part of collection and all those things. Not to go inside and ask what is happening.

UNKNOWN: Well then even outside did you go to collect information outside as to what happened there?