Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-15

MR PRIOR: Good morning Mr Chairman.  It is the 15th of April 1998, the amnesty applications of Brian Madasi and Mr Diaho-Monaheng proceeds.  Mr Chairman, on behalf of the Jerling family, I have been requested to ask the Committee whether Ds De Kock could put one or two questions to the applicant, Brian Madasi, if that would be permitted Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I can see no objection, have you got any objection?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: (still under oath)

DS DE KOCK: Thank you very much Mr Chairman.  I am a close friend to Mrs Jerling and her family and I appreciate it that we can ask only a few questions.
	The first one to Mr Madasi is, given your statement that you are proud of it having been the leader of the Yellowwoods operation, does it mean that you still consider yourself as a soldier or a fighter actually, for your earlier causes?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: First of all I am glad to see your sir.  Your question of whether I see myself as a soldier to this day, first of all APLA is going through a process of integration.
	I believe that was the decision of the leadership and of the High Command of APLA, I therefore abide by this decision.  The decision taken by APLA I don't dispute, or I abide by it.   I am in prison at the moment.  I haven't experienced the changes my country has gone through yet.  
	As I am in jail, I am aware that nobody has the right to take another person's life.  As you say that you are a friend to the deceased, I know that that is not easy to lose someone that you love.
	It is not a small matter to lose somebody that you love.  It was a battle, it was a war.  It is painful that he lost his life, but it was a war.  I am sure that we are here to reconcile and I am prepared to do that.  However, the situation in the country at the time, led us to such.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, if I may just interrupt.  Mr Madasi, you haven't answered the question, it was a simple question.  Do you now still consider yourself to be a soldier for your earlier causes, I personally have not heard the answer yet.  You, now?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I am in prison, I am still a soldier.  I can't change whilst in jail, I will change the day I am released from jail.

DS DE KOCK: Mr Madasi, do you still see yourself as a fighter for change and for your earlier causes, so what I mean is that the moment you will be released from prison, you will carry on with operations in which innocent people, perhaps, will be killed, and in this sense you are still a fighter for what you stand for, politically and also personally, please?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: First of all, I was - I did not do what I did, for my own benefit or for my parents.  I did it for the country.
	I did not do it for Madasi.  We are an army of people or of soldiers and as I said we are going through integration now.  APLA has taken a decision.  
	You were asking me if I were released, would I still regard myself as a soldier - I have my experience, but the person or the personality or the character of the person may change.  We are in a new country now, black and white hold hands.  I hope to be accommodated or to be part of that community to participate in the transformation because I also want to play my part, not through war or through arms, that does not apply any more.
	Because APLA has been integrated into the South African Defence Force.  I can't be a soldier in the way that I was, any more because the army that I belonged to, prior to this, is going through integration together with other armies, and I am willing to be part of the transformation process.

DS DE KOCK: Thank you Mr Madasi.  Mr Chairman, the following questions are not specifically from the family, but if you will allow me, I just want to ask Mr Madasi from my own accord, if you don't mind.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you indicate the purpose of the questions, and the nature of the questions because we do not normally allow parties who are not interested parties, implicated parties or victims to put questions.

DS DE KOCK: Thank you Mr Chairman, it is more in the line of reconciliation.  Mr Madasi said a few things yesterday and also this morning concerning reconciliation and I just want to - also in the interest of the family actually, just want to know exactly what he means by that, because it can further this cause.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

DS DE KOCK: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Madasi, do you as a person have any regret that people is being killed, any people in operations furthering political causes?  Perhaps you have answered it already, but I just want to have clarity on this again?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: First of all according to the operations that we performed, I am not sorry.  I believe that what APLA did was right, it was good, they were fighting for this country.
	It is painful that people passed away or lost their lives.  I am willing to talk to you because you have lost people that you care for.  However, if we look at the other side like the Sharpville massacre, we also lost people.  I am not regretting having taken part in the operation, but that you lost someone, I sympathise with you.

DS DE KOCK: Yes, Mr Madasi, you didn't answer specifically but let's leave it at that.
	How do you feel about the killing of innocent people in the process?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: It is the first time I hear right now, that those people were innocent.  Since I was small I was told that the oppressor is the white man, the enemy of the oppressed, the African people.
	That question of how I feel about innocent people being killed, as I said nobody has the right to take another person's life, however, we were retaliating against what the white man did to us.
	It is not, it shouldn't only be the one side that cries out or that complains, it should be the other side as well.  The white community had a lot of benefits from the previous government of apartheid, and they did not cry then, but now they cry.  I am sorry that you lost a loved one, and I sympathise with you.

DS DE KOCK: Mr Madasi, we hear what you say but another question coming out from the previous one, is what crime did you see in an 18 year old young man, he has just come out of school when being there in the bar, shooting at people and they were all young people, without arms.  How will you respond to this please?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: The fact that the people who passed away there, were people who were not armed, the so-called soft targets, the order and my planning for the operation gave a report that that place was frequented by Security members.  It is in these hearings that I hear that Jerling was a student and all that.  It is painful to lose somebody you love, I know that you are only looking at this from your point of view as an individual, but I would like you to look at it holistically.
	I lost people as well, in the same battle, the same kind of war.  I would also like to know why is it that they lost their lives, I would also like to know who were the perpetrators.  It is good for us to all know each other.  I don't know if I have answered you.

DS DE KOCK: Mr Madasi, can you remember that you said yesterday and you actually repeated this morning, that you agree it is no person's right to take another person's life and that you are actually seeking for reconciliation.  What exactly do you mean by saying that you are seeking reconciliation?