Amnesty Hearings — Palm Ridge — 1998-11-30

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  The next applicant is Mzikayise Tshabalala, page 297, Mr Chairman, 297.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tshabalala, can you hear?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand and give us your full names.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mr Tshabalala, you are also applying for amnesty, is that correct?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: And you are a former member of the SDUs of Lusaka-A, Thokoza, is that correct?

MR TSHABALALA: That's correct.

MR MOPEDI: If I may ask you, when did you join the Self Defence Unit?

MR TSHABALALA: I joined the Self Defence Unit in 1990, but I was still very young.  I participated by barricading the streets in 1993.  That's when I started holding a firearm for the first time.

MR MOPEDI: Were you also involved in fighting members of the IFP?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOPEDI: Could you recall specific incidents in which you were involved?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, there is one incident that I was involved in, the Mazibuko incident that has brought me here.  I was present, as it was explained earlier on, I was carrying my AK47 and people died in Mazibuko.

MR MOPEDI: So what you're saying is that you had an AK47 and you fired at the people and some of the people died as a result of the fact that you and others fired?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: The people that you were firing at, do you know them and could you tell us if you know their names?

MR TSHABALALA: No, I didn't know their names, I just knew that they were IFP members because some of them were wearing red headbands.

MR MOPEDI: So you in particular, did you kill or injure someone during the fight?

MR TSHABALALA: I would say yes, there are some people that I killed or injured, even though I would not be in a position to identify them but yes, I did fire shots.

MR MOPEDI: So pertaining to the fight itself, you confirm what Mr Mahlangu has told this forum?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I confirm that.

MR MOPEDI: Alright.  And about the further incidents, are there any further incidents that you would like to tell us?

MR TSHABALALA: One other incident in which I was involved is the Mshayazafe incident.  As explained by the previous applicant, I too was present during that incident.  I was carrying my AK47 and I used it.

MR MOPEDI: So at the Mshayazafe incident, do you have any knowledge whether you killed or you injured someone or any person?

MR TSHABALALA: I don't have knowledge to that effect but I trust that there must be people that I killed or injured because I was also shooting.

MR MOPEDI: When you were shooting, when you were firing a shot or some shots, what was your intention?

MR TSHABALALA: It was to kill.

MR MOPEDI: As to how the incident itself arose at Mshayazafe, do you confirm what Mr Mahlangu has just testified, told us?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, as it was explained, that is correct.

MR MOPEDI: And do you have any further incident that you would like to mention?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, there is the one incident that involves the gangs.  I was one of the people who were patrolling.  That is the Khumalo gang and the Thokoza Bad Boys.

MR MOPEDI: Were you also patrolling with Mr Mahlangu?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I was one of the people in his group.

MR MOPEDI: And so you confirm his testimony in respect of that aspect?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I confirm that.

MR MOPEDI: You say you had a firearm that you were using, what happened to that firearm, the AK47?  What happened to it eventually?

MR TSHABALALA: When we came back from Mshayazafe I no longer had a chance because there were soldiers blocking our route and I had to drop it and flee.

MR MOPEDI: So you dropped it, that means it might have landed on someone else's hands?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, that may be so.

MR MOPEDI: Is there anything that you would like to add to what you have told us already?

MR TSHABALALA: No.  All the testimony I have rendered here covers it all.

MR MOPEDI: So are you praying for amnesty?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just check very quickly.  The Penduka fighting, the Penduka incident, is it part of what you've told us already?  Were you involved in that, Penduka?

MR TSHABALALA: That is the Mazibuko incident, yes I was involved there.

ADV GCABASHE: Is it the same thing, Mazibuko and Penduka?  Is it the same thing?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, it's one and the same thing.  The only difference is that these areas are separated by the street.  From Mazibuko further down is the IFP area and on the other side you have the ANC.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you.  Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mopedi.  Advocate Steenkamp, questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: No further questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

ADV GCABASHE: Can I also just check, and it's the same incident where Bonga asked for assistance?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, that's the same incident.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Mopedi?

MR MOPEDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no re-examination.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Tshabalala, thank you very much, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED