Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-12

UNKNOWN: Now bearing that in mind, Capt Mentz, I 
want to ask you what is the possibility, and I don't want 
you to speculate, I am asking you in the light of your 
evidence, what is the possibility that the operation against 
this particular person could have been something other than 
an operation against the ANC or liberation movements or a 
person who was an enemy of the State?

UNKNOWN: No, Chairperson, it was specifically aimed
at the ANC/PAC.

UNKNOWN: Please just listen to my question.  Please 
just listen carefully to my question. I want to ask you, 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 122

UNKNOWN: arising from what you have just testified about, the 
background, the way in which Vlakplaas operated, the fact 
that you said that Vlakplaas only operated against ANC 
activists and terrorists and people who belonged to 
liberation movements, the fact that you said that they did 
not act against criminals, did not eliminate criminals and 
did not eliminate other people, what is the possibility that 
this askari could have been a common criminal or just a 
normal person who was eliminated?

UNKNOWN: According to me there was no such possibility.

UNKNOWN: Capt Mentz, the political motive, the 
general justification you will find on page 110 to page 
... (intervention).

JUDGE MGOEPE: Sorry Mr du Plessis before you get there 
because you made a whole lot of assumptions, summed up in 
one word, askari.    You said what other possibilities, what 
other reasons could have existed for the elimination of an 
askari.  Once you use the word askari, you have made a lot 
of assumptions.  You have assumed that this person, as we 
have come to understand what the word askari means, you 
already assume that this person must have at some stage have 
been a so-called terrorist, in the ranks of the ANC.  He 
came back, kept at Vlakplaas,  Vlakplaas, all these things 
you are assuming at once, once you use the word askari.  I 
think what Mr Mentz should tell us is why do you think this 
man was an askari, on what basis?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairperson, could I put it this way, the 
askaris were not only at Vlakplaas.  In some cases some of 
them were placed out to other security branches such as in 
Natal, Durban.  There were people there who worked with 
askaris, in the Cape as well, and in other cities as well.  
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 123

UNKNOWN: They also had their own askaris who came from Vlakplaas.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Couldn't this man have been arrested for 
stocktheft?

UNKNOWN: No.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Couldn't this man just have been captured?  
Maybe he was, as you say, he was a terrorist, he had just 
been captured, he was not as yet an askari, he was not as 
yet converted into an askari.

UNKNOWN: No, right at the outset of my application I 
said that De Kock had told me that he wanted to find out 
what the askari could tell him, what he wanted to say.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Oh I see you got it from him, from de Kock. 
Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman. ...(intervention)

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mentz, you do make reference that way on 
page 105, and that is the last paragraph of your 
application.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Capt Mentz, perhaps we should just follow 
through the questions they have asked you to their logical 
conclusion, in the light of what Judge Mgoepe has just said. 
 Bearing in mind the way in which Vlakplaas operated as I 
have asked you just now, operated against enemies of the 
State, terrorists, members of liberation movements, this was 
an askari.  So is it possible that this was an action by 
Vlakplaas members against one of their own people, without 
him being in any way involved in liberation movements or 
being a supporter or a sympathiser of the liberation 
movements?

UNKNOWN: No, no, they wouldn't have.

UNKNOWN: According to your view?
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UNKNOWN: 124

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Could we then turn to the political 
motivation. You confirm that in general, from page 110 to 
page 115.  And then on page 115 the third paragraph, the 
second line after the word "duties", is that sentence 
correct?  "Although I was not a member of the security 
branch"?

UNKNOWN: No, that should be scrapped. From the third 
paragraph, "although I was not a member of the security 
branch".  That is a mistake on our side.  This came out when 
I was stationed at Murder and Robbery.  Then I was not a 
member of the security branch, so this is incorrect in this 
application.

UNKNOWN: Capt Mentz, do you confirm the rest of the 
political motivation?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Page 115?

UNKNOWN: 115 Mr Chairman, yes.

HASSAN MALL: What sentence is that?

UNKNOWN: The sentence in the third paragraph, after 
the comma in the second line, is the word "pligte" (duties) 
and it must come out from the word "alhoewel" (although) 
until the end of that sentence - "although I was not a 
member of the security branch".

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

UNKNOWN: That was just included by mistake.
	Capt Mentz, do you confirm page 115 to 116?

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: On whose instructions were you operating?

UNKNOWN: Col Eugene de Kock.

UNKNOWN: CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 125

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe, any questions?

UNKNOWN: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman. 
 Captain, page 115, the second paragraph, 
		"The political objective was to combat terrorism 
to combat the destabilisation of the country and 
also to try and combat the enemies of the State, 
who tried to topple the State, including the ANC 
and the PAC, 
how applicable is this to the askari who was eliminated?

HASSAN MALL: What is the question?

UNKNOWN: How applicable is this paragraph to the 
eliminated askari? In other words, does he fall within the 
categories mentioned here?

UNKNOWN: Yes, if he had passed on information, as I 
believed he had, he had been an askari in the police, that's 
what I believed he passed on information back to the ANC and 
that would have, it would have helped the ANC/PAC in their 
struggle to topple the government.

UNKNOWN: But that's just an assumption you are making.

UNKNOWN: That's what I believed at the time.

UNKNOWN: With reference to this man, that is an
assumption you are making now?

UNKNOWN: Yes, this askari.

UNKNOWN: Now if we use the word askari and we accept as 
you say that he was an askari, that would tell us that he 
was on your side, on the National party's side, not so?

UNKNOWN: At first, the way I saw it, an askari, was that 
he was first a freedom fighter, and he had then been 
arrested by the security police and they had then turned him 
or got him so far as to assist us, became an askari with us, 
received a police salary and notwithstanding that, whilst he 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

UNKNOWN: 126

UNKNOWN: was doing his duties, he then fed information, which he 
obtained, back to the ANC or PAC, whatever the case may be. 
 That is as far as I see an askari.

UNKNOWN: Yes, let's be specific.  Is my understanding 
correct, that if you label, if you say this person is an 
askari, that means that he is now working for the security 
forces?

UNKNOWN: Yes.  Yes, in other words he was a double 
agent. He made as if he was working for the security forces 
...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: That may be so Colonel I just want to know 
whether this is the position about an askari, that's all.

UNKNOWN: That's how I saw it.

UNKNOWN: If he was an askari and as you have agreed with 
me, he was working for the security forces, what political 
motivation did exist for him to be eliminated if he was 
working for the security forces?

UNKNOWN: But I told you - pardon.  I said that this man 
was apparently working for the security police, but then 
that would have been a front. He pretended to work for us 
whilst at the same time leaking sensitive information back 
to the ANC/PAC.  That's what I believed.