Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-24

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes I asked her to help me. I did not know the number of Commander Martin because I did not have my notebook with me. She dialled the number for me. I could not speak to my commander, I spoke to his wife. I gave the necessary instruction and told her to tell him that to get the men together. They should be fully equipped, we were going to work. And she ...[indistinct] the message over the telephone like send my regards to Louise or something to that effect.

UNKNOWN: General Jappie Oelofse, was he present?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No he was not present when I made this call. He was busy with the other area commanders. And I was there alone and the Colonel.

UNKNOWN: You said that they had to be prepared because you were going to go to work. Would Commander Martin know what you meant by that?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Colonel Martin was aware of the fact that if you go to work you had to put on your uniform and take your weapon with you. He would not have known what we would do precisely because we had different options. Amongst others to protect or to act as guards.

UNKNOWN: And you would then meet at a specific place?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I asked that nine 'o clock that we meet nine 'o clock that evening at Uncle Harry's Roadhouse.

UNKNOWN: What did you do afterwards?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I drove and on my way home I stopped at, I drove past Andre Visser's house and I told him that he should meet us at the roadhouse. He brought it to my attention that he does not have a uniform. And I said it does not make a difference I can use him he should just make sure that he is at the roadhouse. I went back to my house where I ate first. At about three minutes to nine I left to the roadhouse. It is about a half a kilometre from my house.

UNKNOWN: And you arrived there?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: When I arrived there the men were all there. Commander Martin called them to attention and he saluted me. Our salute is not a normal salute. It is a Boere greeting. And I told the men that tonight is the "real McCoy." We are going to work.

UNKNOWN: Anything further, did you tell them anything further?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I asked who had weapons. And it was said 3 of them did not have weapons and Martin, van der Schyff, Etienne Visser. I gave 2 pipe shot guns to them.

UNKNOWN: This is the 2 shot guns that you received from General Oelofse?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct. That is the 2 home-made shot guns that is known as pipe shot guns.

UNKNOWN: At this roadhouse did you tell them anything further about the order that you received?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No I did not tell them what the purpose of work was. When we left from there it was clear that we had too many vehicles and I knew what our objectives was. We had to go and set up a roadblock as General Oelofse instructed me. We drove to Mr Badenhorst's house and we would have gone directly to Mr Visser's house if I knew there was enough parking space for these vehicles but there was not enough parking space. And therefore we went to Mr Badenhorst's house. And his parents were on vacation, it was no problem to leave the vehicles there.
	We, the Mercedes Benz and the Sentra was singled out and I gave instruction that the number plates be hidden with masking tape. And from there we went to Andre Visser's house. The reason for why we went there is I asked him if he did not have a drink for us because we liked to drink. And when we arrived there all of the men, I cannot say with conviction all of them but myself I had a whisky and water.
	And from there we went to Deon Martin's house and on our way there we went through the houses as we followed the road. What do they call it? We patrolled the area. We arrived at his house and on our way there I told him that we would have a roadblock. He suggested that we do a house penetration or that we attack squatter camps and I told him that was not the order. At Deon Martin's house I put it to the men that we were to set up a roadblock and what was involved there. Callie Meiring would take charge because he had knowledge of this. And I left them there so that they could discuss the matter. I made myself at home. I went to his drink cabinet and there I took out the brandy. It was just less than half a bottle. I divided it into two bottles, I added Coke. 
	And when I went outside they already decided who was going to drive and I gave the two bottles to the two groups. Who in the other vehicle drank of the brandy I cannot say with conviction. I can go on hearsay. I think it was Mr Badenhorst but they can testify to that. I myself, I drank some of the brandy. Deon Martin did not drink. And along with us was Diedericks, he does not drink and Etienne Visser, he also did not drink.
	We went to this roadblock and on our way there I discovered that the Sentra was getting left behind. I asked that the Mercedes stop and return and Gerhard Diedericks jumped out. After a while he came back and he told me that they had just assaulted two black men. I kept quiet, we drove a little on and we pulled off the road. And when the Sentra caught up with us it stopped and I reprimanded all the men and I asked them not to be out of line. And stick to their order, namely the roadblock that we had to set up.
	And from there we went to the roadblock. I thought the ideal place would be the Radora crossing or the Krugersdorp/Ventersdorp junction. I thought this would be a suitable place because this road came from the homelands and the main purpose would be to stop ANC and SACP Alliance people and to confiscate illegal weapons from them that we could use for our own revolution.

UNKNOWN: Yes? And did you go to this place, the junction?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: We arrived there and instructions was given that Callie Meiring had to set up the Roadblock. I cannot remember who acted as traffic officers. All the men of 9, 8 they were all in camouflage with our sign, the AWB sign was clearly visible. They had one torch, reflective jackets and reflective armbands and a blue light. The Sentra was used as the emergency vehicle so that it looked like a traffic vehicle. And we mounted the blue light onto this vehicle. Myself and Deon Martin decided to drive back in the direction of Ventersdorp and he was driving and while we were driving as the car approaches from the front it was my task to see who was the persons in the vehicle and from the light from his vehicle we could see whether it was white persons or black persons.
	If we identified this target group we would turn around pass them. I would make sure as we pass them whether they were white or black. 
	Excuse me Mr Chairperson somebody is distracting me. Can we lower the volume on it? Somebody is talking in the background.

CHAIRPERSON: We will be on the lookout, we will look out for that.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: And when we got back and passed the vehicle I could see clearly who was in the vehicle. So I made doubly sure that we did not stop the wrong people. We hoped that some of the black persons in the vehicles would not be from the South African Police or South African Defence Force and they would cause trouble for us.
	We stopped several vehicles. I remember one specific instance and the persons in the vehicle was not satisfied that they were being pulled off by AWB members. The driver, I used a tomphar and hit him over the head hard enough, not to injure him so that he would fall and not drive. I used minimum violence. To make it clear to him that I am not interested in his explanation he must just get going. 
	The second incident that I remember clearly is a vehicle that did not want to start after we stopped it. I told my men to push the vehicle.

UNKNOWN: Mr Kloppers these vehicles, why did you pull them over? What did you do with them after you pulled them over?