Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 2000-02-15

MR DEHAL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Ms Luthuli, sorry, this child of yours what was the date of birth of this child?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: On the 1st July 1991.

MR DEHAL: And where is the child at the moment?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: He stays with us, with me.

MR DEHAL: Would that be the same place where you stayed - sorry, would that be the same place as the home of the deceased in this area we talk of in Umkababa?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes that's where he resided at my home.

MR DEHAL: Now is the child there now and are you living there now?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: The child is at Umkababa.

MR DEHAL: This home in Umkababa where the child lives is this the same whom where Mr Mbukazi's brother lives?  Elder brother, sorry I'll get the name for you just now.

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: No the child stays at my home.

MR DEHAL: Where is that?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: It's in the Zanzini district in Umkababa.

MR DEHAL: And how far is that from Frederick Mbukazi's home in Umkababa?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: It's not very far.

MR DEHAL: Is it walking distance?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes it is.

MR DEHAL: And does Frederick Mbukazi, the elder brother of your deceased boyfriend, see this child regularly?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes sometimes the child visits them.

MR DEHAL: Do you know when last the child and Frederick Mbukazi have seen each other?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: I will say it's been a while.

MR DEHAL: What do you mean by that, how long, a few days, a few weeks, a few months or years?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: If I'm not mistaken it may be two or three months.

MR DEHAL: Do I understand your evidence that apart from this two or three months Frederick Mbukazi regularly visits the child and the child on occasions visits Frederick Mbukazi and his family particularly because they live so close to each other, would that be correct?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Well where Mr Frederick stays it's a bit far from my home so the child only visits during school holidays.

MR DEHAL: I thought you just now said that where Frederick Mbukazi stays and where you stay with the child is in fact fairly close, you pitched it at being at close walking distance and now you say it's far?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think she said a close walking distance, she said it was within walking distance, it was not far away.

MR DEHAL: Indeed yes, whereas now you say it is far?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: When they moved from where they were residing before and therefore Umlazi and we remained at ...(indistinct).

MR DEHAL: Yes but we're talking of the house that Frederick
Mbukazi lives in Umkababa and the place you live in in Umkababa?  You now say it's far, they are far from each other whereas earlier you didn't say they were far from each other?
Do you want to clarify that?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: They now reside at a place which is a bit far from my home.

MR DEHAL: And where is that?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: At Umlazi.

MR DEHAL: So Umlazi is very far from Umkababa, you've got to travel by transport to get there, you cannot even walk there, correct?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: We are talking about a killing that took place in 1992.  What is the relevance of visiting in 1999?

MR DEHAL: It reflects adversely, Mr Chairperson, on the credibility of the previous witness who premised his version on the basis that he did not know well the age of this child for he hardly ever sees the child.  His version is the child lived far from where he presently lives.  He also said that he had not seen the child for many years and therefore the variants from two years to eights years to ten years was explained.  This evidence is elicited to show ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It is clear that his estimated the age of the child was totally wrong, isn't it?  The father of the child died in 1992?

MR DEHAL: Indeed but apart from that, Chairperson, it reflects adversely on his testimony and that is what I would argue later.  I'm simply eliciting this evidence to support that submission.  The point's made, thank you.
	Do you know a person known as Tandakile Guzane?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: No I do not.

MR DEHAL: Was Mr Guzane never at the scene when your boyfriend, the deceased, came to be killed?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: It was Gebu Guzane who was present.

MR DEHAL: You say it was Gebu Guzane, Kwazi Mbambo and Lee Nsomi, correct?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes.

MR DEHAL: So what did Guzane ...(intervention)

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: Sorry, what did Guzane do on that day to the deceased?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: He stabbed him.

MR SIBANYONI: Sorry, is Guzane and Gebu the same person?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes.

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, may I just take instructions on this quickly?  There's no need for an adjournment.  Thank you.
Thank you, I'm indebted to you Mr Chairperson.
	The Tandakile Guzane that I referred to is a female, the applicant's sister, do you know her?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: No I do not.

MR DEHAL: Was she not at the scene when the deceased was stabbed to death?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: No she was not present.

MR DEHAL: You see, my instructions are from the applicant that you did testify in the trial in which he was charged with murder and your evidence was to the effect that there were four persons at least including the applicant who attacked the deceased and that these four persons were the applicant, Lee Nsomi, also known as Isaac Nsomi, Kwazi Mbambo and the applicant's sister, Tandakile Guzane.  Now would you dispute having said that in court?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: I do dispute it.

MR DEHAL: And of course you say you don't even know this Tandakile Guzane?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes I maintain that.

MR DEHAL: Do you know the Ultra City in the vicinity of Umkababa?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: Yes I do.

MR DEHAL: Where is the market in relation to the Ultra City?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: It's very close to the Ultra City.

MR DEHAL: So after the deceased was stabbed did you go to Ultra City or did you go to the market as you say to leave your keys with this lady?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: I left the key at the market at the old market at Umkababa.

MR DEHAL: And did you ever get to the Ultra City or did you not?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: I did go to the Ultra City.  I had assumed that my sister would be there but she was not so I had to go back to the road and wait for a taxi.

MR DEHAL: Sorry, so the purpose in your going to the Ultra City was to look for your sister?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: Not to call for the police?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: No.

MR DEHAL: In your statement in paragraph 4, the first sentence says
"After they had stabbed him I ran to Ultra City to call the police for help"
Why do you say that there?

ALZINA MKAZA LUTHULI: I went to the Ultra City to search for my sister.  The thought did occur to me to call the police but there was a long queue at the telephones and when I didn't find my sister I decided it would be better to go to his home to report the matter.

MR DEHAL: When I just now asked you - when I just now made the proposition to you that you did not go to Ultra City to call the police you agreed with that.  Why didn't you say yes you went, you looked at this long queue and you abandoned the idea?

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't she just said she went to look for her sister but the idea did occur to her of calling the police but she looked at the long queue and decided against it.  She did not say that she went to Ultra City to call the police, she repeated what she had said earlier and that she went there to look for her sister, isn't that so?

MR DEHAL: Indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then you cannot put to her something she hasn't said?