Human Rights Violation Hearings — Grahamstown — 1997-04-08

MR MTATI: No, I was referring to the burning of policemen's houses and people not wanting police.

REV XUNDU: And were these people, people who belonged to the organisations or were they?

MR MTATI: Yes, I would say that they belonged to organisations.

REV XUNDU: Which organisations were those?

MR MTATI: I do not know.

REV XUNDU: Let me ask, in these statements by other persons who described the situations in the locations at the time, they say that the police were acting of their own accord, especially the municipality police, the municipal police would come in, assault, shoot at random.  Is that true or is it nonsense?

MR MTATI: That is not so.  I did not see any of that because I worked there with them.

REV XUNDU: They say that they even disrupted funerals.  They say that these "kits konstabels" even came and disrupted funerals.  Do you not know anything about that?

MR MTATI: No, I said I worked there and I do not know anything about that.

REV XUNDU: Are you from Alexandria?

MR MTATI: Yes, I am.

REV XUNDU: In all these incidents where people died there are attempts to reconcile perpetrators with the families.  Is there anything which you would like to say, possibly express remorse or reconcile with these families.

MR MTATI: Yes, I consider the loss of life as irreplaceable, but there was nothing I could have done.

REV XUNDU: You have been living in South Africa all your life.  Did you not ever hear of police disrupting a funeral?  Let us say that as you under oath to speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, you are saying that you never heard about that.

MR MTATI: I was working there for the first time, I had never heard about them disrupting any funerals.

REV XUNDU: And what you, Mr Ncipha.  Could you please take the microphone.  The municipal police, were they very popular with the people?

MR NCIPHA: I would say that they were popular, but when we got there we were referred to as rats and informers who were obstacles in the way of the people.

REV XUNDU: What kind of obstacles were you being?

MR NCIPHA: They said that they did not want any municipal police, that we were obstructing them.

REV XUNDU: When you became a policeman, what was the situation in the location like?

MR NCIPHA: When I joined the police it was in 1975.  There was nothing wrong.

REV XUNDU: Were people allowed to be members of organisations which were opposed to the Government?

MR NCIPHA: I do not know.

REV XUNDU: You do not know?

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me Reverend, I would like us to have some order, please, so that we can put our questions as quickly as possible.  There are still many people who have to testify before this Committee.

REV XUNDU: Are you saying that you are not aware of police or about organisations which were objected to by the police or whose members the police ill treated?

MR NCIPHA: No, Sir.

REV XUNDU: I would like to hand him back to you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Tiny Maya.  No.  Okay.  We would now like to express our wish that we would like to have another opportunity where we could meet with these witnesses, but we would like to say that in the statement of Mr Mzwandile Mtati, I would like to ask you, do you dispute, in totality, the fact that you shot and killed Zonwabele Hermans?

MR MTATI: What happened was that I did not shoot at any specific person, I was firing at a crowd which seemed to be attacking me.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you categorically deny that you shot, not qualifying, I am not involving myself with the intention or not, that you shot and killed Zonwabele Hermans?  It is not stated anywhere in the statement whether you are denying that or you are accepting that.

MR MTATI: I am saying that I do not deny that he was struck by a bullet from my firearm, but I was not aiming at anyone, I was firing at a crowd and thereafter another policeman came who had also fired, but I was firing at a crowd, not at any specific person.

CHAIRPERSON: Secondly, I would like to know, now we are in 1997, with hindsight is there anything which you are remorseful about with regards to that incident?

MR MTATI: Yes Chairman, because loss of any persons life is terrible, because human life is priceless, but on that day I had no choice, because if I had not, had just stood there with my arms folded, I would have been the one to lose my life.  There was a group of them and I was by myself.  I had to protect myself, there was no other way.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you realise that the work of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission is aimed at reconciling the people of this country?  Do you think that, would you like to reconcile with the families of this victim?  Do you ever think about it?

MR MTATI: Yes, I do think about it?

CHAIRPERSON: What do you think can be done?

MR MTATI: There is nothing better than talking, for the two parties to talk.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you taken any steps since the time of this incident?

MR MTATI: No, they are at Alexandria and I am now in Uitenhage.

CHAIRPERSON: So, does the fact that you were transferred from Alexandria erase the loss of life there?

MR MTATI: No, that is not what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: That is what I heard you answer to be.  I do not how else to interpret that.  The fact that you are no longer in the area where this incident took place, does it mean that because this incident is no longer staring you in the face, that you do not have to go back and try and make peace with the families?

MR MTATI: It is quite easy for the two families to sit down and talk, but as I said, at the moment I am far from them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ncipha, I would like to come to you know.  What do you think about the incident of that day?

MR NCIPHA: Mr Chairperson, I am also very remorseful.  I was not at work that day and I was not involved in the incident and what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: I see here that you were not even present on that day, but your work put you in contact with people who were involved, your colleagues.

MR NCIPHA: Yes, we all worked in Alexandria.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were not at work on that day?

MR NCIPHA: No, I was not at work, I was at home.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not think we have got any further questions to raise at this stage.  We have said that we will not be making a finding of the, of your clients, we will not be making findings concerning their status as perpetrators at this stage.  So, we will inform them as soon as we are in a position, in our process, when we contemplate entering them in our report as perpetrators.  If we contemplate that, we will definitely inform them and afford them an opportunity to come and interact with us further before we make a finding.  Thank you.  Is there anything that you want us, want to say to us at this stage?

LEGAL REPRESENTATIVE: There is nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Nothing further.