Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-18

MR BOOYENS: And as you understood it from van Rooyen, because that's the information upon which you mainly reacted, Scorpion would also have endangered your information network potentially, in Swaziland, if he went back to the ANC.

MR VISSER: Yes, he would have been able, among others Swaziland, to do harm.

MR BOOYENS: Is it also not true that without your information networks - we know that the Security Police had those, Botswana had those everywhere I suppose, without your information networks your effectiveness to combat enemy powers, would have been highly constrained, not so?

MR VISSER: Yes, Sir, that's true.

MR BOOYENS: Let us get back to the whole question of -basically it goes to the terrain of counter-espionage, you mentioned Scorpion during his interrogation, giving you information that the Cubans beforehand had got information regarding an intended attack on a base in Angola.

MR VISSER: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: This information set in motion an investigation of a spy within the South African Security Forces, who gave that information to the Cubans.  Did it?

MR VISSER: I don't know, I don't know whether it set it in motion or whether it was confirmation for an investigation already under way.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, but that information was then proved to be correct.  Was the spy caught?

MR VISSER: Yes, he was caught, Dieter Gerhard was caught.

MR BOOYENS: Now to come back to that aspect because the Committee was unclear on that.  If the investigation is now under way to catch this spy within your own ranks, if Scorpion goes back to his people, the ANC people, would he be able to hinder or impede the investigation against this spy?  Because he would have told them that such was the information that he had given the South African Police and that that's why they know.

MR VISSER: I suppose yes, it could have had an implication on the outcome of the espionage case

MR BOOYENS: So here we have a situation where it was judged by Piet Goosen and discussed with you, that the deceased, Scorpion, had too much sensitive information about the Security Police, Security operations, that this information could not go back to the opposition powers, and by that I mean the ANC, without endangering the whole struggle and without endangering people's lives.  Is that the reason why he had to be killed?

MR VISSER: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And you may not - and that is in essence the information that you - the motivation let's say, that you gave to Sakkie van Zyl in a nutshell, for the request to him to help you.  Is that correct?

MR VISSER: Yes, it is correct.

MR BOOYENS: If we look at Sakkie van Zyl's exact situation, it seems as if one can sum it up as follows more-or-less.  Firstly, there was an instruction from Piet Goosen that Scorpion had to be eliminated and had to disappear, to be made to disappear, to put it crudely.  This instruction came back to you, is that right? - from Piet Goosen.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: You then had to find someone to perform or to execute the instruction.

MR VISSER: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: To use Soweto Security Branch would mean compromising some of your own people in a situation of an informant who worked with them.

MR VISSER: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: So did you think that in that case it would have an influence on the moral of your branch?

MR VISSER: I think it would have had an impact, yes.

MR BOOYENS: Is that why you decided to make use of an "outsider" from another Security Branch?

MR VISSER: Yes, that's correct.

MR BOOYENS: And you then, as Mr van Zyl said, sketched the picture to him and asked him to help to give execution in other words, to Goosen's instruction.

MR VISSER: Yes, that's correct.

MR BOOYENS: May I just take instructions please.  Thank you, Mr Chair, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Visser, Mr Carr, as well as Mr Schoon whom I represent, both believed that this was a well thought out decision to eliminate this person and that there was no other way out, do you agree?

MR VISSER: Yes, I do.

MR PRINSLOO: And that due and proper instruction had come to you and to Mr van Zyl that it had to be informed.

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: When a person is trained as a member of MK, he leaves the country, comes back and then normally doesn't move openly, is that correct?

MR VISSER: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: In most cases police were looking for them at their houses and so on regularly, they knew they'd got training.

MR PRINSLOO: Yes, we did.

MR PRINSLOO: This person referred to as Scorpion, who was a trained person, if he now is released in Johannesburg, would you expect him to go and tell his family that he was now working for the SA Police?

MR VISSER: No, he would not have done that.

MR PRINSLOO: Would an informant have indicated that he was an informant, especially in that specific time when informants were killed?

MR VISSER: No, such a person would not have done that.

MR PRINSLOO: Is there any reason for you not to tell this Committee who this person was if you knew another name for him?

MR VISSER: No, I would have liked to positively identify this man to clarify all these unclarities, but I cannot remember it.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

MS SAMUEL: Mr Visser, when this person was arrested by the name of Scorpion, how much contact did you have with him?

MNR VISSER: "Ek het aan en af skakeling met hom gehad terwyl hy ondervra is en daarna, nadat hy vrygelaat is, het Maj van Rooyen hom hanteer".  ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: Could you kindly assist her.  I think it should be on channel 2.

MR WILLS: I have the same problem, it wasn't translated for me either.

MR LAX: Ian, there may be a problem in the box.

CHAIRPERSON: Which channel would be from Afrikaans to English.

INTERPRETER: I'm on the English channel now, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: But I believe they've got problems on channel 2.

INTERPRETER: No, channel 2 is okay.

MS SAMUEL: It is now clear, I can hear.

INTERPRETER: Thanks.

MR LAX: Mr Visser, can you just repeat the answer so that one could hear it again, please.

MR VISSER: I beg your pardon?

MR LAX: Could you just repeat your answer because it seems as if those who require the English didn't hear it. ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: To do with the liaison, I had liaison with him on and off as a Division Commander.  I could not be there full-time and after that Martin van Rooyen handled him.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us clear that up.  What happened to Martin van Rooyen?

MR VISSER: Unfortunately he died a couple of years ago of a heart attack, he was very young, dying of his heart.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, then we know that now because we refer to him and we don't know where he is or whether he's applied for amnesty or what.

MS SAMUEL: You told us that in fact this person, Oupa Ronald Madondo, is not the same person as that of Scorpion from the photographs that you've looked at, but on page 132 you said that this person in fact, Oupa Ronald Madondo, was in fact a person involved in Black Power, but on page 132 there's an enquiry check which in fact shows this person as being an MK - 132 to page 133, he was a member in fact of the African National Congress.

MR VISSER: I was at that stage not aware of the fact that he was a member of the MK in 1980, Mr Chair.

MS SAMUEL: Are you saying now then this person could - Oupa Ronald Madondo could have been in fact a member of the MK?

MR VISSER: That is possible, I don't want to say that I knew everything at the time.