Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-09-14

UNKNOWN: And just before you answer, I am of the opinion that the victims and the people you represent, can actually oppose in those incidents where they are involved, and if you are unable to tell this Committee which incidents your clients oppose, we don't know if it is a workable thing, because you should be, you have instructions, I have no doubt about it, unless you say your clients are involved as victims in all the incidents in respect of which the applicant seeks amnesty.

MR PATEL: That is not the case sir.  Let me say this, to a large extent the victims that I represent, seem to be working together as a group.
	Most of them seem to be - the situation has been explained and they have spoken to the applicant and most of them seem to be prepared to forgive and to forget and look to the future.
	As a group they have decided that these remaining questions need to be answered and if those remaining questions are answered satisfactorily, then in that event, the likelihood is that the opposition will be withdrawn.

UNKNOWN: And if not?

MR PATEL: If not, then we will continue with proper cross-examination as we commenced with.  That is - this is the way it has worked.  They work together as a group and they have discussed it as a group, which I think is the right way to do things.
	In some respects, they have been able to console each other and take consolation from what the applicant has said and they approach it on this basis, and I can do no more than to approach the Committee with my situation as it exists.

UNKNOWN: Mr Patel, I do not follow.  Please assist me personally.  You say that you've got to put certain questions and if they are answered satisfactorily, the opposition would be withdrawn.  If not, then you have to continue with your cross-examination as normal.  When is that going to happen?

MR PATEL: Immediately sir.

UNKNOWN: Mr Patel, are your instructions to the effect that the offences to which the application relates, are not acts associated with a political objective?  Are those your instructions?

MR PATEL: I think it is a mixed bag, but I would say that it is more, it relates more to full disclosure than rather to a political objective.

UNKNOWN: So you do have a basis for opposing the application, why don't you proceed then on those basis? Obviously we have to listen to evidence in a structured fashion and that is why we want to know in respect of which evidence, in respect of which incidents are you saying there hasn't been a full disclosure from Mr Hlongwane.
	We have to listen to your evidence in a structured fashion, it has to do with assisting us at the end of the day.  We have to evaluate that evidence and you as Counsel, we would appreciate it you could also just go to a little extent in trying to assist us in getting evidence in a much more structured fashion.

MR WILLS: If I may say something Mr Chairman and members of the Committee, it seems to me that my learned friend is saying that because of his clients' vacillation in this matter as to the approach in this matter, their vacillation is in effect determining the procedures that should be adopted at this hearing.  He is in effect saying that his clients, depending on the answers that are forthcoming in the next ten questions, will determine how this matter is to be conducted at procedural level.
	Whether it is to stand down further, whether further questions are going to be directed.  With respect, that cannot be allowed.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Patel, you should just cross-examine, just continue the cross-examination, be it ten questions or more, whatever you require, but I don't think we should just go in stops and starts.

MR PATEL: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Hlongwane, you remember the attack on a person by the name of Dumisani Patrick Maseko, also known as Carlton?

UNKNOWN: Which incident is that Mr Patel, for my assistance?

MR PATEL: As I have it, it took place on the 24th of December 1991 in Wesselton near the home of the deceased, Patrick Dumisani Maseko.  Do you have any knowledge of this particular attack?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I will have a problem in answering the question.  We had a meeting, the leadership was trying to help me remember the different places.  What is written in my statement, is what I can remember.
	They were helping me to remember with incidents relating to events which happened in shops and other areas.  I am prepared to speak the truth.

MR PATEL: I am afraid I didn't hear any translation.

INTERPRETER: We are on.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you hear now Mr Patel?

MR PATEL: Yes, I can hear through this one.

CHAIRPERSON: The answer there Mr Patel, was that the effect of the answer was that the applicant said that he can recall what is contained in the documentation put up here, and that he is prepared to tell the truth.
	He didn't specifically say that he can recall the incident relating to Dumisani Maseko.

MR PATEL: Can you recall having received a report from anyone of your subordinates, regarding an attack on Dumisani Patrick Maseko, and this would have been on the date I mentioned?

CHAIRPERSON: Christmas Eve, that is the 24th of December 1991.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I would like to repeat in this way, the people whose names are not mentioned in my papers, some people reminded me yesterday about incidents that happened in shops and about other areas, it is possible that I might say now that I don't know the person.

MR MOLOI: Mr Hlongwane please, the question is simple, do you remember or don't you, that is the question.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I would say yes or no.  Chairperson, however yesterday I talked or I mentioned people who are not written in the statements, because people reminded me of the people.  I won't be able to say yes or no with respect, to people who got injured in different areas.

UNKNOWN: Mr Hlongwane, we don't want hearsay evidence.  Do you have personal knowledge of the killing of Dumisani Maseko, yes or no?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No.

UNKNOWN: Before you proceed Mr Patel, may I come in.  Did you instruct subordinates to conduct some other attacks, did you?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, I did.

UNKNOWN: And this one is not one of them, according to you, because you can't recall that?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, that would be correct.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Patel.

MR PATEL: If I could maybe jog your memory a little bit, this young boy that was killed in the panga attack was a university student at Mgoyi University.  Do you still not remember receiving a report from any of your subordinates regarding such an attack?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Two people were killed who were scholars.   One was training to become a Doctor and the other whom I killed, was Papa and Obet.  I won't be able to say specifically who was schooling where.

MR PATEL: Yes.  Do you remember having received a report from any of your underlings regarding the killing of one Buti Matthews Matsweni who was killed on the 28th of October 1991?  He was killed next to a tavern in Davel also with regard to a panga attack and his face was extremely disfigured as a result of the attack?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: What was the date?

MR PATEL: 28 October 1991?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No, I don't remember.

MR PATEL: With regard to the Davel incidents ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just on that Mr Patel, Davel and Davule, are they the same place?

MR PATEL: As I understand it Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PATEL: You remember the incident you talked about where you entered the house and shot two shots and somebody entered the other room, and hacked the old woman to death with a panga.  Do you recall that, testifying about that?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, I remember.

MR PATEL: Now, Philemon Malinga, one of the victims I represent, would like to know from you if you can tell this Committee the name of the person who actually killed his mother, the name or names of people who actually did the deed.