Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-01

CHAIRPERSON: For the benefit of those who are responsible for preparing the record of these proceedings, I would ask the legal advisors and other persons participating to place their names on record.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I simply identify the matter first if that's possible?
	Mr Chairman, this is the amnesty application of: Zukile Mbambo, application 2891 of '96 and Dumisani Ncamazana, application number 2892 of '96 which proceeds on the 1st of April 1998.  
	And the representatives are as follows:

MS COLLETT: I'm Advocate Collett from Bisho, representing both applicants.

ADV PRIOR: I am Advocate Prior, representing the Amnesty Committee as Evidence Leader.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there no other persons represented?

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman, there is an implicated person who has been given notice, Mr Skolele Tjabani also known as Jimmy Jones, he is present.  Mr B B Ntonga an  attorney from Mdantsane indicated to me that he was representing Mr Tjabani.  He has been contacted and he is on his way from Mdantsane, however a former colleague, Mr Mbandazayo is also present and has indicated that he has discussed the matter with Mr Ntonga and Mr Tonga is on the way and that the matter may proceed without him at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, is it necessary to give the names of the members of the Committee?

ADV PRIOR: I think that may be helpful.

CHAIRPERSON: I am Judge Wilson, I am Chairman.  We have Ms L Gcabashe, Mr I Lax and Mr N Sandi.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  We are ready Mr Chairman.  May I also indicate that in respect of the four matters, the requisite notices have been sent out in terms of Section 19(4).  As I've already indicated an implicated person, Mr Tjabani is present and duly represented, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I gather one of the victims was here earlier but indicated that he did not intend to remain.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, that is so.  He will be kept informed of the proceedings by myself Mr Chairman.

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, it is my intention to first lead the evidence of Mr Ncamazana and thereafter to lead evidence from Mr Mbambo.  The evidence will essentially be based on the supplementary affidavit which is at page 49 of the record with which I have been provided by the Commission.  May I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Let the witness be sworn in.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: (sworn states)

MS COLLETT: Mr Ncamazana, is it correct that you are presently incarcerated at Fort ...[indistinct] Morgan Prison?

INTERPRETER: Excuse me, can the speaker please come closer to the mike?

MS COLLETT: Mr Ncamazana, is it correct that you are presently incarcerated at Fort Le Morgan prison?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: What is your age at present?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: 22 years.

MS COLLETT: Did you at some stage in the '90's join APLA?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: And when you joined APLA, were you at school?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, I was a student then.

MS COLLETT: In what standard were you?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Standard 8.

MS COLLETT: Now, how old were you when you joined APLA?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I was to be 18 years old.

MS COLLETT: And what was the reason that you joined APLA?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I was - my intentions were to free the Africans who were under oppression at the time.

MS COLLETT: And did you think that you would achieve that by joining APLA?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so, yes.

MS COLLETT: Was APLA an army at that time?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, it was an army.

MS COLLETT: And were you subjected to military discipline?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Now, where did you join APLA, what place?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: In Transkei.

MS COLLETT: And who was the commander of that Transkei base?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was the African, Mr Jimmy Jones.

MS COLLETT: Does he go by any other name?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It Mr Skolele Tjabani.

MS COLLETT: And where was that base situated?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was in Butterworth.

MS COLLETT: Now, as a member of APLA, did you undergo training?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Which army?

MS COLLETT: As a member of APLA, did you undergo training, military training?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, I was being trained at the same base.

MS COLLETT: Can you briefly outline to us what sort of training you received?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The way I was trained to fight in the forests, to protect myself when being attacked, methods to attack, to ambush and raids, such things.

MS COLLETT: Were you given any political lectures?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Was the purpose of those political lectures so that you could identify the organisation's enemy?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Who were the enemy of APLA at that stage?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: White people.

MS COLLETT: Anybody else?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The government of the day at the time, the solders, police and everybody collaborating with that government.

MS COLLETT: The attacks of APLA, were they aimed at these enemies?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Now, is it correct that during March 1994, you and certain other persons who were members of APLA were involved in various missions in the greater East London area, for APLA?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Right.  Now in your affidavit you have made mention that on the 9th of March 1995 yourself and somebody called TNT and somebody called Kid were visited by Jimmy Jones, is that correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: What was the purpose of the visit?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: He came to tell us to prepare ourselves because there were missions that we had to undertake.

MS COLLETT: And what else did he tell you?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What he told us was, that's what he told us at that time.

MS COLLETT: Was Mamma's Restaurant and Motel in Butterworth a rendezvous for the APLA members at that stage?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: No, it's not our place of - we did not run the place.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Interpreter, a rendezvous is a meeting place.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It is the place we met at when we were supposed to go and pull those missions.

MS COLLETT: And was Sabelo Museko also a commander at that base?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, he was the base commander.

MS COLLETT: What other name is he known by?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Jimmy Malinga and Gigilelo Mtogolo.

MS COLLETT: Now, at Mamma's Restaurant when you met round at about the 9th of March 1994, who was present?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Myself, the late TNT, the late African Kid and the commander, Jimmy Jones.

MS COLLETT: What was TNT's real name?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It's Makabonfo Mfundise.

MS COLLETT: And Kid's real name.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Andile George.

MS COLLETT: Now, what were you briefed about at Mama's Restaurant at that occasion?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We were briefed about an attack we're supposed to undertake here in Mdantsane.

MS COLLETT: Involving a minibus?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: And what was the aim of the mission?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Our motives for the mission was to keep guard on the road passing through between the school and the place where the bus was going to pass.

MS COLLETT: Now what school was that?  What college or what school was that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: John Knox Bokwe's College here in Mdantsane.

MS COLLETT: And this minibus, who would be occupying that minibus?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: White teachers who were teaching at that school.

MS COLLETT: Were they the target?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Now where were you to base yourself to launch this attack?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We were going to be somewhere near the school.

MS COLLETT: Where were you going to stay though, at whose house?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We got a place to stay at the house of Mr Tjabani, my co-accused.

MS COLLETT: That's Zukile Mbambo?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MS COLLETT: Were you provided with firearms?