Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-02

MR LAX: Now my question is this, if you only left work in the morning and returned directly to the hostel, how could you found him busy with a meeting in the afternoon when you got back from work?  Did you get back in the morning or did you get back in the afternoon?  Do you understand the problem I have?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: When I left work and went to the hostel, I went straight to my room, I didn't get out and walk around the hostel.  The only time I left my room was when there was a trumpet being blown calling for a meeting, then I went out to go and attend the meeting. ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What time did you get to the hostel from work?  Did you get to the hostel in the morning or during the afternoon?  That is what is being ascertained.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: If I'm not mistaken I arrived at the hostel at about ten and then I entered my room.

MR LAX: So you can't explain why, in that whole description of going to the meeting, you gave evidence to say that you found Biela in the meeting when you came back from work?

CHAIRPERSON: I must say before you answer, I have a different recollection because I was taking notes whilst you were talking.  I seem to have a different recollection to that of my colleague, that your evidence was that you came back, you stayed in your room and later joined Biela that afternoon in the meeting.  Now that's what I took directly from you whilst you were giving evidence in Zulu, which might explain the difference I think between my notes and the notes of my colleague.

MR LAX: Chair, I accept there may have been a translation problem.  That's fine, I'll move onto another point.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: Now you said that after these people had pointed at you at work that morning of the bomb attack, that you went and spoke to an Induna.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: That's correct.

MR LAX: Now you've given us two different versions of what you've told him.  On the one hand you said that you were feeling sick, you wanted to go into town to see a doctor, on the other hand you said these people were threatening you with death, you couldn't work with them, you wanted to go back to the hostel.  Please just explain these two different versions.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Yes, it's correct, it's contradicting and I will explain the contradiction in this way.  The first Induna whom I told that I'm sick is the Induna in my department and the second who asked me was the one I found outside, the one who was in charge of the whole factory.  This is the one that I found outside.

CHAIRPERSON: But who is Myaba?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Mr Myaba is the Induna that I found outside and he is the Induna who is in charge of the whole factory.  The first Induna is Agrippa Khunene.

MR LAX: When you were asked about - you said that when these ANC members came to work that Monday morning the IFP members were confused and the ANC members were happy, do you remember that?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: That the IFP people were jubilant and the IFP were - I'm asking whether you mean that the IFP people were jubilant - no the ANC people were jubilant and the IFP people were angry or were frustrated, is that the question?

MR LAX: Yes, the word that was translated was confused, it may have been sad or angry or maybe another word you might have used in Zulu, I'm not sure.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Yes, the IFP members at the workplace were confused.  As I have stated before, I had to walk out of the workplace because I was not in a position to work on that particular day.

MR LAX: My question was;  you were asked what were they happy about and you said you thought they were happy because you thought it was because they'd killed one of your members.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: That's correct.  They came in a jubilant mood and they also stated that we got one of you and you are the one who is left and we have to kill you.

MR LAX: The simple question is this, you didn't have to think that that was why they were happy, you knew that was why they were happy because you knew, they told you they had killed one of your members and you were next, isn't that so?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Yes, I knew.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lax.  Ms Bosman, do you have questions to put to Mr Hadebe?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Hadebe, I would just like some clarification on a few minor points.  This meeting on the Monday after you'd got home from work, what was your status there, were you there in an official capacity, did you just stumble across the meeting, what was your position there?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: On that Monday meeting I attended in the capacity as an organisation member and to listen what exactly what was going to be said in the meeting.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you participate in any discussion in that meeting?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: No, I didn't participate, I didn't even say anything.

ADV BOSMAN: Right, then my next question where I don't exactly have clarity is, which bus was attacked, do you know?  Was it the first bus or the second bus or were there more buses?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: This is the first big bus.

ADV BOSMAN: Then my last question is, perhaps you could just, the first big bus, what do you mean by the big bus?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: Yes, there are two buses, a big one and a small one.

ADV BOSMAN: So there were more people in this one I take it?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I would think so.

ADV BOSMAN: And then could you just turn to page 16 of the bundle, that's your - no, paragraph 16, I'm sorry, paragraph 16 of your affidavit.

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: There are two affidavits, I don't know which one.

ADV BOSMAN: The one on page 13, do you have it?  Where it says
"In one meeting I organised and Mr Mbatha told us to attack ANC Fawu members and drive them out of the company so that only Zulus or IFP members can remain.  We did just that and even now people who are working in that company are IFP only."
You have dealt with it but I'm not clear on it.  Where you say:
"even now people who are working in that company are IFP only."
At what stage were the workers all IFP members?  What are you talking about there?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: It is at the time when the ANC people were not longer coming, were not reporting to work.  There were a few of them at work but most of them - and the only people who were going to work at that time were people who were our members, but you know they were not real members, they were pretending as if they are our members.
	They pretended in order that they can go to work.  They pretended to be our members and they attended, they went to work.  Therefore, at that time I was sure that ...(intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: Sorry, Mr Hadebe, I want to know what time it was?
"even now"
What time were you referring to with the:
"even now"
Was it in 1992, was it in 1993, was it at the time of your arrest, was at the time when you were already in prison, what time is the:
"even now"

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: After the bus was bombed.

ADV BOSMAN: It's still not ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: He said: "after the bus was bombed".

ADV BOSMAN: It's still not clear to me.  The day after the bus was bombed, a week after the bus was bombed, a month after the bus was bombed?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: I would say towards the end of 1992.  I realised that the IFP members are the majority or there are more IFP members in the factory.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I just need further clarity on that aspect.  What are you saying, are you saying prior to the commission of this offence, that is before the 28th of September 1992, the majority of workers at your company, at Escort Bacon Factory, were IFP workers and not ANC workers?  Is that what you are saying?

MZOBONA LEONARD HADEBE: May you please repeat the question?