Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR MOODLEY: Mr Chairman, I know Mr Pigou because of these investigations - I met him first in Vereeniging and I assisted him or the team investigating these type of cases, so he knows a bit of the background when I was assisting him at the time.  I was never involved in this kind of thing, this is why I think I was chosen to join the time and I was never ever found guilty of such offences and never involved myself in it.
 I have knowledge of these things in court and there were allegations made that there were people who did this and I myself was alleged to have done these things but I never did it.

DR BORAINE: Yes, could I just - gentlemen, they way I heard the question was not only: "Were you actually involved in any of this"? but "Did you know of any experience"?, in other words: "Were you aware - not of allegations or newspaper report but of incidents amongst your own colleagues and your own experience" - that was the word that was used, "did you come across this at all or was there absolutely nothing in that at all?"

MR MOODLEY: Myself, no, Mr Chairman.

MR DEMPSEY: (English translation inaudible)

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

DR BORAINE: Thank you.

MR PIGOU: Chair, it is remarkable that in South Africa so many people want to confess, I will leave it at that for this and I will move on with Director Hesslinga.

MR MILLER: Sorry Chairperson, I'm Michael Miller on behalf of Tulani Dlamini and I just wish to point out that the statement before Lieutenant Zeelie made by him, was not made at the Protea at the Soweto Murder and Robbery but at Brixton Murder and Robbery.

DR BORAINE: Thank you Mr Miller.  Piers?

MR PIGOU: Director Hesslinga, did you during the course of your investigation into the murder of Doctor Abu-Baker Asvat, seek the assistance of the security branch - any of their information?

MR HESSLINGA: No, Mr Chairman.

MR PIGOU: I just want to now turn to the 1995 investigation - there's a reference on page 13 to the Goldstone report into the death of Sizwe Sithole and the allegations that Mr Sithole allegedly made to Warrant Officer Augustine, who I believe had previously been working in the Soweto Security Police - as is indicated here, about allegations of criminal conduct by Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and her daughter Zinzi Mandela, could you tell us whether you obtained these documents and copies of the documentation which was put before the Goldstone Commission of Enquiry?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Could you tell us where those documents went after you concluded your investigation?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Were they copies or originals Director Hesslinga?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Thank you.  Were you able to establish whether Stompie Sepei was indeed an informer for the security branch?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: On page 16 of your investigation diary, you say that Richardson - it was confirmed that Richardson was a source ...[inaudible] Lieutenant Colonel Muller and that this formed some sort of basis I believe, for the payment which was approved by Director Brits and Assistant Commissioner Grove, were you able to get any documentation at all to prove that Richardson was an informer?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Was Lieutenant Colonel Muller able to tell you who else around Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was informing to the security police?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Why not?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Thank you Director Hesslinga.  On the same page on the second paragraph, you talk about visiting murder and robbery and speaking to Lieutenant Colonel Dempsey about the Lolo Sono kidnapping docket and you say: "In this docket there is prima faci evidence that Mrs Winnie Mandela is directly involved in the abduction of Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala.  Did you actually have access to that docket?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: And could you tell us what is contained inside that docket because we seem to have had some trouble in tracking it down.

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Director Hesslinga, these weren't the only police statements were they - inside the docket 236 of 11/88, I believe there was also a statement from one, Michael Siakamela, could you tell us if that was put onto the computer and if not, why not?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Director Hesslinga, who was Michael Siakamela or who is Michael Siakamela?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Can you remember what the content of his statement said?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Now, could you tell me whether - let me just confirm this, you're saying now Director Molaba, he was the last person with that statement or a copy of that statement when he went to see Michael Siakamela to confirm whether indeed he was going to stick by that statement he made in 1988 or '89.

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: And was Mr Siakamela taken to the Attorney General in 1995 to speak to him about the contents of his statement?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Yes, Michael Siakamela.

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: And can you recall at the end of your investigation, what the recommendations were around - from the Attorney General now, around the abduction case of Mr Lolo Sono and Sibuniso Shabalala?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: I just want to move on quickly to ...[intervention]

DR BORAINE: Piers, can I just find out how much longer you're going to be?

MR PIGOU: There's about four questions Chair, I think they should be quite brief.

DR BORAINE: ...[inaudible]

MR PIGOU: Feel free.
 Page 21 of the investigation diary refers to - I think, Jerry Richardson, talking about Kuki Zwane having been killed on Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's orders because she was an informer.

MR HESSLINGA: Sorry, can you just repeat that, is it page 21?

MR PIGOU: I believe it's page 21.  And were you able to ever establish whether - first question Chair, were you able to establish whether Kuki Zwane was indeed an informer?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: Second question, we've referred to a National Intelligence Agency document in which there is reference to certain football club members being in fear of Katiza Cebekhulu coming and giving evidence and on the corner of that document it says - I think in a signature from Director Brits : "Speak to Senior Superintendent" - I think it says: "Speak to Henk Hesslinga", was this document made available to you and what efforts were made to follow up the information with the National Intelligence Agency in this regard?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)

MR PIGOU: With respect Director Hesslinga, were you not somewhat suspicious that a former MK intelligence officer is put directly - and it doesn't seem to me as though there's a great deal of supervision over the work that he's doing, he's put in charge of looking for former Mandela United Football Club members - some MK members, in connection with the activities around Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, and then he comes back to you and says he's had no luck finding those people, when we know from the Truth Commission, that we found at least one or two of those members in the course of our investigations.  It seem highly problematic to me that this situation
is left in the hands of Warrant Officer Malherbe at the time, with his connections in the ANC, were you not concerned about this?

MR HESSLINGA: (English translation inaudible)