Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MR DUBE: This surveillance is the one that brought suspicions about Sicelo.  Secondly, Sicelo was arrested.  He had in his possession pistol, Makarov pistol was found in his possession 9 mm, hand grenade F1 as well and I'm the one who gave those things to him.  He was arrested with those things and that was brought to my attention, the fact that he was arrested I mean, and he was released after a few hours that I'm not able to say or state exactly as to how many hours.  After that Sicelo disappeared from us completely.
	I called the cell members after his disappearance that is, and I discussed this with them, and we were all surprised as to why was that happening, and we were all bothered about the fact that we could not predict the next hour.  First of all we questioned ourselves that we must be very alert, vigilant at all times, and we have to be very careful and take care of our moves as well because we're in the dark, we did not know why he disappeared.  And it was bit difficult for us as well to establish as to his whereabouts.  
	One other thing was, the fourth one, I told the cell members to be vigilant at all times.  You see often times I would not be with them, I was all over.  It was quiet for some time, I don't quite remember though as to how long, however, I think it took about three months, that's the estimation, before we could see him again.  What I mean is, after his disappearance the last time I saw him was when he was arrested and he disappeared subsequently. The next time I saw him was three months later, roughly.  
	One day it so happened I was at Clive's house, I visited the unit in fact, that's why I was there.  We were sitting there at Clive's house with Clive whiling away time because late in the afternoon we had some mission to conduct, and Sicelo came.  It was in the afternoon when he came, and when he came and when he showed up I was scared, I must admit, I was shocked so to speak.  We talked with him outside.  Before we talked outside I told Clive, we were still inside the house, to phone the other cell members, comrades, Precious and Sipho.  I remained with Sicelo outside at Clive's house.  As I was questioning him as to where he was coming from, as I was looking at him I saw something in his pocket.  I could not see it exactly because it was in the pocket, I could that there was something contained in that pocket and I asked him what's that thing in your pocket that fills the pocket that much, and he said nothing.  And I took it out and I discovered it looked like a walkie talkie transmitters, one-way transmitters, and I threw it on the ground.  It broke.  
	And Clive came out as he was still in the house, he came out at that point and I showed him that thing, that item, and I said to him you see what's happening.  What got into my mind instantly was that we have to shift immediately from that spot because I'd already seen that device that he had in his possession.  I feared as to we could not tell what would happen next so the best we leave that spot and go to another spot.  That's when I took the decision that Sicelo must be eliminated, must be killed.  
	I considered first the security of the comrades I was working with, as well as the ANC organisation at large, also the fact that I was a commander of the unit and here I'm encountering a problem.  I see it coming, and the duration as well that was not there, the time wasn't there for me to communicate with others, or other leaders, so it was, it lined up entirely upon my discretion to take steps and I was mandated as a commander to take steps if I encounter such situations.  I then left, got out, Clive had already called the other comrades by the way in the house.  I told Clive to go and fetch them, Sipho, Wiseman as well, Precious that is.  That when he comes they can find me at school. 	Fortunately Sicelo did not resist anything as we were walking.  We went to a certain school not far away from Clive's house, I don't remember the name of the school now, I told them that that's where they'll catch up with us.  
	Shortly before we got out and I said to Clive in no uncertain terms that this person must be assaulted, he must be eliminated because if that does not happen we'll be the ones who'll be killed.  Clive left and I was there the school waiting, and they appeared, they came and approached us and I asked Sicelo, in fact I told Sicelo we should go, we left the school, we went down and we got to the outskirts now of that residential area.   We got there and I said to him upon arrival there at that spot he should sit down.  He sat down indeed.  Clive took out his firearm and shot at him.  As soon as this was done the other comrades I could tell that they were surprised as to what was happening because they were not fully informed.  I simply told them that we should go and I then started explaining to them that comrades do you remember that there is this and that, things to the effect that Sicelo disappeared, and I also explained to them further that I just realised that some device in his possession and it was a transmitter device so to say, and I explained to them the reason why I had to firmly take this decision that he must be killed.  
	The reason why that had to happen is simply because we have to be protected because we are in a guerrilla warfare here, we are operating underground and we are very few of us, we should at all times try to secure our position, and fight against, and protect ourselves against the people we are fighting with.  I furnished that kind of explanation to them, and I further on told them that what has just happened must not be broadcasted, in other words it must lie low within us or amongst us.

MR KOOPEDI: Now why did Clive be the one who shot Sicelo?  Did you give such an order?  Is there reason why, when there were four of you, is there a reason why he was the one who shot him?

MR DUBE: As I've already explained that each time I trained my units, Clive was a commander first of all, I would have standing rules during the duration of my training.  Things like I would train and teach them that in case you encounter such a situation like Sicelo's the commander of the cell should be responsible.  That was the reason why.  So he was following the guidelines that I've set for them at the time.

MR KOOPEDI: So if I understand you correctly Clive was somewhat a person responsible for this unit and you would be overall responsible for this unit and other units as commander.

MR DUBE: Yes, that is correct.  He was a commander of that cell specifically and other cells as well.

MR KOOPEDI: Now as you've told this Honourable Committee that you were deployed into the country by your organisation, did that deployment authorise you, or give you the authority to kill?

MR DUBE: I will explain by way of saying what happened here was I was infiltrated here in South Africa as a member of special ops, and I acquired experience in terms of underground operation that I used to do or conduct, and now I was in a situation where I was mandated.
	First when I came back I used to receive orders at first as to what should be one, where should we refrain, in such a way that the way I used to operate now I was now in authority, in authority to choose the targets and use my own discretion, and pick on things and set the plans or actions to be executed, in other words, I was, I had the mandate.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it that was only to do acts in furtherance of the policies of the ANC, you did not have a mandate to pick targets that you chose that fell outside those chosen by the ANC?

MR DUBE: Very true.

MR KOOPEDI: After this incident did you report this matter to anyone, that is your superiors in the organisation?

MR DUBE: Yes, I did.

MR KOOPEDI: Where did you report?  To whom did you report?

MR DUBE: I reported to Lusaka, to comrade Aquino.  He was a member of the, one of the commanders of special corps.