Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

MR PRINSLOO: And did you work directly under Colonel Van Niekerk, who was the commanding officer of John Vorster Square?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: So you reported to Colonel Van Niekerk?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And Colonel Van Niekerk, on his turn, reported to Major General Du Toit?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And General Du Toit reported to head office?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And you were connected to the Security Branch?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: In conjunction with Captain Deetliefs?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And he was also well-known to you?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Yes, he was.

MR PRINSLOO: As well as Warrant-Officer Beetge?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Well I didn't undertake questionings or interrogations with him, but I did know him.

MR PRINSLOO: He was also a member of the Security Branch?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Not of my branch, but of another branch.

MR PRINSLOO: But he was a member of the investigative unit of the Security Branch?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And Sergeant Strydom was also a member of the Security Branch, the lady?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: No, the lady was a constable and she was connected to the Uniform Branch at Edenvale Police Station.

MR PRINSLOO: During this investigation Mrs Derby-Lewis was detained in terms of section 29 of Internal Security?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And those commands were issued by your commanding officer, Colonel Van Niekerk, is that correct?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Well the arrest of, or the procedure by means of which Mrs Derby-Lewis was detained was not issued by myself, I simply undertook the investigations.

MR PRINSLOO: You were aware that she was detained and questioned in terms of section 29 of Internal Security?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And surely you acted in terms of the orders from your commanding officer, Colonel Van Niekerk?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And he issued orders to you with relation to the questioning of Mrs Derby-Lewis?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Well I cannot agree with that.   He was aware of my activities and he knew, or he stated that her version of the facts differed from that of her spouse and he mentioned that to me.

MR PRINSLOO: You worked only under the orders of Colonel Van Niekerk, is that correct?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Yes, that's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And you had nothing to do with Murder and Robbery, that was not your branch?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: No, that was not my branch.

MR PRINSLOO: I beg your pardon, I am speaking rather quickly, I will speak a little slower.   Captain, Colonel Human was in charge of Murder and Robbery?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Yes, that's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And those were two separate branches of the South African Police?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And your investigation was handled separately, correct?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: We were a co-operative team, or a joint team, but our orders came from our security officers to our security members.

MR PRINSLOO: And during the questioning of Mrs Derby-Lewis, there is evidence which indicates that videotapes were made specifically while your colleague, Captain Van Niekerk, or at least Captain Deetliefs questioned her?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: I was not aware of that.   I have no knowledge of that, it could be so.

MR PRINSLOO: Captain, you and your colleagues who were involved with this investigation, which was quite an important investigation, surely must have consulted or had discussions regarding how this issue would be handled, especially in terms of your commanding officer, Captain Van Niekerk and Colonel Deetliefs?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Colonel Deetliefs at that stage was busy with Janusz Walus's questioning, as well as that of Mrs Derby-Lewis.   I had to take over because the pressure became too much for him, he had too much on his plate, and I had to take over so that he could proceed with Mr Janusz Walus, that is why it happened.

MR PRINSLOO: Captain, it was your determined task to gather as much information as possible in terms of this case?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And Captain, surely it was the objective of section 29 that if someone were to be detained under the stipulations of that Act, that information should be collected?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And that information which was gathered had to be correlated to see whether or not it was true?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And that information would be expected to be gathered from the person who you were questioning?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: You yourself would have possessed certain information in order to question such a person, is that correct?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: I had no information from other people, with all honesty.

MR PRINSLOO: Therefore you had no information or other information regarding the case?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: The only information I had was that a murder was committed, that Mr Hani had been murdered, and I was connected with the investigative unit and I was ordered to be part of the investigation, that Mr Hani had been murdered and that the suspects had to be gathered and that they would be questioned and that we should undertake a complete investigation in order for the supreme court's prosecution of the suspects.   That is all that happened.

MR PRINSLOO: Captain, you were aware that your colleague, Colonel Deetliefs, had already questioned Mrs Derby-Lewis at various events?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: I had questioned her and Colonel Deetliefs before me.

MR PRINSLOO: How many times exactly?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: I don't know.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you see any of his notes, any of the questions that he had asked?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: No.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you at any stage acquire any notes of Captain Deetliefs which he might have made while questions Mrs Gaye Derby-Lewis?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: No.

MR PRINSLOO: Therefore how would you be able to perform a task, not knowing anything about the case, and then undertake questioning?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: I don't know how you can say that I knew nothing of the case.

MR PRINSLOO: Well the most logical supposition would be that questioning had been undertaken by Captain Deetliefs for some or other purpose, he must have taken notes, and he must have reported to Colonel Van Niekerk what had surfaced during the questioning?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Yes, I agree, he would have reported to Colonel Van Niekerk, but those notes were not at my disposal, I had no knowledge of what was contained in those notes, I did not see anything.

MR PRINSLOO: Therefore, you didn't know anything?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: I was told to proceed with Mrs Derby-Lewis's questioning.

MR PRINSLOO: Proceed to what, where did it end?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Well I don't know how far Captain Deetliefs had come with her questioning.

MR PRINSLOO: Well you were told to proceed, where did he stop?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: I don't know how far Captain Deetliefs managed to proceed with Mrs Derby-Lewis.   I was tasked to proceed with Mrs Derby-Lewis as if it was the first time that I would be involved with her.   Her admissions to Captain Deetliefs were none of my knowledge.

MR PRINSLOO: Therefore it would have been a futile exercise, those couple of days?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Well I wouldn't have known what she said to him....

MR PRINSLOO: I'll proceed to another point, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that you should not investigate, this is really not particularly relevant.   It might be relevant in another tribunal, but certainly not here.