Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: : Mrs, what  I wanted to suggest - you don't have to  - it's very sensitive and you are a very able public speaker, so no you don't (indistinct)

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Your question was?

UNKNOWN: : I'll repeat it.
 Johannes Mbatha, also called Themba, we've heard evidence by Mr (indistinct)  He was an Askari.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think you actually said that we turned him, and you didn't know the right word.
 We didn't turn him, he came on his own from Vlakplaas, and he wanted to confess to the ANC about the activities in Vlakplaas.

UNKNOWN: : When did this happen.  When did he come to you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I don't remember the exact dates Mr Chairman, it was round about that time.

UNKNOWN: : You were sending him to Lusaka, to the ANC to report?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : He actually came to request that we must facilitate his route back to Lusaka.

UNKNOWN: : And was he staying at your house for a few months before that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : No, Mr Chairman, how could a person from Vlakplaas come and stay in my house, an Askari for that matter?

UNKNOWN: : We've heard evidence of Mrs Nkadimeng that he was still remaining within the country, that she stayed at your house for at least, nearby your house, and she spent time with you for at least a month when she saw Themba at your house.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, that is ridiculous, Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: : So you're saying he stayed?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : He did not stay in my house, but I did see him quite frequently when he wanted us to facilitate his route back to Lusaka.

UNKNOWN: : Did he visit your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Yes,  that way he contacted me.  I didn't know him.

UNKNOWN: : Fine, and you facilitated his route back to Lusaka?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Yes.

UNKNOWN: : I want to show you the Sowetan of the 22nd of February 1989, and the City Press article.  I believe it is the 24th of February, 1989.  The reason I say I believe it is, because unfortunately there was no date stamped on it, but he talks about the funeral of Stompie Seipei the next day.  This has been given to your attorney, and I 'll be giving you a copy of this as well.  I'm afraid, this is not so good, so I will  give you mine after I've read it if you can't read this one.
 Sowetan, February, 2nd, 1989.  I'm looking at just before the section which says (indistinct).  
"The Sowetan has received four calls in two days from a man who gave his name as Johannes Magothca, claiming that Stompie was alive, and staying at the Dukwe Refugee Camp."
That's from the Sowetan.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I honestly haven't the slightest idea what the connection was between our (indistinct) and Stompie. Mine was to facilitate his route back to Lusaka.

UNKNOWN: : Fine.   City Press, 24th February, 1989.  I'm reading the third paragraph down.
"The mystery of Stompie's death, and ...(inaudible) early this week, when a caller to City Press claimed that the teenage activist was in Botswana's Dukwe Refugee Camp.  He gave his name as Johannes Mbatha."

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I see that Mr Chairman, Mr Vally I don't have any idea of what this is all about.

UNKNOWN: Let's move on.  Since we've started with the matter of Stompie Seipei's death, I just need some answers from you on this issue.   At the section 29 Inquiry, you mentioned that you have been contacted by a Mr Shabalala, who advised you that between the time that Stompie was at your house, and Stompie was found dead, he had been seen at the Protea Police station.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Yes, I had been given that information Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: : I then asked you, and I've followed it up with two letters to your attorneys, requesting you as to how to get hold of Mr Shabalala.  I had no response from your attorneys on this issue.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Well, I can imagine, they had problems in tracing her.  But the information is still at my disposal as where you can look for her if you want to find her.   You can still try and establish where she is.

UNKNOWN: : I had no response from your attorneys, and if you can give me a response, it would be useful.  However, the issue is this, this is a new allegation that Stompie was last seen at Protea Police Station before his body was found.  You have previously told a journalist, Mr Serfontein, that Mr John Morgan has seen the body of Mr Stompie Seipei and said it was not the body of Stompie Seipei.
You remember that allegation?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : That is correct.  I believed at that stage that it was not the body of Stompie, and this was information obtained from Morgan.

UNKNOWN: : Mr Morgan, as you heard denied that.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Well, I mean, what I did not touch any important information - solicit that from Morgan personally.

UNKNOWN: : You've said at your maiden speech in Parliament, I can quote that exact thing by paraphrase.  If you want me to quote it, I will quote it.  One of your deepest regrets is that you failed Stompie in that, he was taken from your house and killed.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : That is correct.

UNKNOWN: : I need to know from you, regarding Stompie Seipei.  I just want to know.   Do you acknowledge, number one:  that the body who was found and identified by his mother, and buried (indistinct) was that of Stompie Seipei?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : Yes, of course, that was never in dispute Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: : Thank you. Do you acknowledge that he was last seen at your house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : That is true.  From the evidence, I subsequently, it was subsequently learnt.

UNKNOWN: : So the story of a Mrs Shabalala seeing him at the police station, is there any basis to it?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I said before that "in camera" hearing that you were free to establish the validity of that information, and the fact that you have not been able to ask about that information, is not my fault.   I conveyed the information as much a possible.

UNKNOWN: : You see, I'll just tell you quickly what he said, because you had knowledge that he was last seen alive at your house, but what you did say in your speech made in Parliament  that Stompie Seipei was taken from your house and killed.  You regret you failed him in that respect.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : That is true.

UNKNOWN: : And I asked by whom he was taken away?   And you say- Good God, how on earth would I have known that Mr Chairman?"
 I asked whether  you knew he was taken away, you said -
"Yes, that has been in the Court record.  We have faced trial, Richardson had been on trial, he had been taken away from my house, and we have stated to you that we now have new evidence, that in fact, we can (indistinct) from the manse, and from the house, he was seen at Protea Police Station."

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : That is correct.

UNKNOWN: : And I asked you how she knew who Stompie was, and your response was, you would have to get that information from her.
My follow up was:  "How did the information come to you?"
And you said - "She mentioned that to me".
My question was:  "Did she contact you out of her own free will?"
and you said  - "Yes."
And I asked you:  "Can you give us the period when you got this information?"
 and I said - "that information from Mrs Shabalala".
 and you said:  "Long before I got the actual (indistinct)
actual (indistinct)."
 I' m sorry, I'm leaving out some words here.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : No, there's nothing in dispute (indistinct).  I did say that, and I will (indistinct) attempt to find Mrs Shabalala for you.

UNKNOWN: : This is a very important piece of information.  The issue of Stompie's death has caused a major impact on your life.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: : I was not aware that you have not had any response, because we tried to contact her.  But I will give you the telephone number at my disposal.  You are free to contact Mrs Shabalala  yourself.