Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

MR LAMEY: You described that shed, it's a shed-like double garage.

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

MR LAMEY: What do you mean by double garage?

JOE MAMASELA: It has a big door, a big almost like a garage door but it was a wooden door and it was very long and inside there was fodder, there was horses fodder packed somewhere there.

MR LAMEY: And how did you guard them?

JOE MAMASELA: I think Piet Mogoai and Koole chained them somewhere on the floor or whatever, there was some stuff where you can chain your horse, they were chained like horses there.
	And then we slept in the kombi outside and locking the door and there was a small little window that - we parked our kombi straight to that window that we can hear any movement inside.

MR LAMEY: You say Piet Mogoai and Koole chained them?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes.

MR LAMEY: To something that looked like horses.

JOE MAMASELA: No, I said ...[intervention]

MR LAMEY: No, something that horses are chained to?

JOE MAMASELA: Ja, it was something like that but it was in the evening, I can never describe that particular place well.

MR LAMEY: Were you not ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: We had a word for it last time, what is it?  Can somebody help us?  We had a word for that thing that the horses were tied.  Mr Brink?  A horse something?  Mr Nyoka?

MR NYOKA: What is that, can you repeat Mr Chairman?  Can you repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: That object onto which you tie your horse, on which we were told some of them were tied.  Mrs Hartle?  Well alright, we will get it during tea time.  Yes, go on.

MR LAMEY: Mr Mamasela, but the following day when it got light, did you see to what they were tied to?

JOE MAMASELA: I went with Piet Mogoai and he untied them and then I came out, I can't describe that thing so well.  I don't want to tell lies, I can't recall the place so well.

MR LAMEY: Is it a type of a ring?

JOE MAMASELA: No, I can't describe it, don't put words into my mouth, I'm afraid.  I don't want to ...[intervention]

MR LAMEY: I'm just trying to ...[intervention]

JOE MAMASELA: No, no, no, I don't want to commit myself.  I can't describe it well.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't one of your clients say the same thing, that they were tied onto a particular object?

MR LAMEY: Yes indeed Mr Chairman, the evidence was that Mr Hashe was handcuffed and he also had chains and at a certain stage they were tied to rings in the wall but I ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: So there's not dispute about that?

MR LAMEY: No Mr Chairman, there is a big discrepancy which I would like to come to.

CHAIRPERSON: Not about the ring anyway?  I'm just wondering, why do you want him - why are you so persistent about him describing that something?  We know that there was something onto which they were tied, whether it was round or triangular or yellow or white, does it really matter?  You know one of your clients said that.

ADV SANDI: That was Mr Mogoai.

MR LAMEY: Yes, indeed Mr Chairman, but I just want to come back to the locality because, and I don't want to divulge this to the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Well he can't describe it anyway because he didn't take proper notice of it.

ADV DE JAGER: ...[indistinct] handcuffed in this or chained to an object in this double garage as you call it.

JOE MAMASELA: ...[inaudible]

ADV DE JAGER: And were all three of them kept in the double garage?

JOE MAMASELA: That is absolutely correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I think one of the applicants, I think Mr Mogoai as far as I can remember the impression I got from his evidence was that the room in which they were chained and the object onto which they were tied or one of them was tied was attached to a house or something like that, to a main house.

JOE MAMASELA: No, there were houses there nearby, this was a shed, they were inside the shed.  I don't know whether there was a house inside the shed, I have never seen a house inside the shed.

MR LAMEY: Mr Mamasela, could you please refer to the bundle of photographs, Exhibit P?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lamey, what is your client's version, where was this?  Where lies the dispute?  Can you identify for us because we can't recall details of the evidence but maybe you do because you're keeping constant touch with your own clients.

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, if you will allow me I will put the version of my clients too, but I just want to elicit Mr Mamasela's version about this before I put the version.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, if you think there is a lot which is going to turn about mislocating the ring onto which they were tied you can go on.

MR LAMEY: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.
	Do you have the bundle in front of you Mr Mamasela?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, I've got the bundle.

MR LAMEY: Exhibit P?  Could you indicate the garage where these three people were kept on the first night?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, the photo 11, the long shed that is garage-like.  That is exactly the place that I know of, that I've seen.

MR LAMEY: Were you and Piet Mogoai and Koole constantly, over this whole period that you were at Post Chalmers, together?

JOE MAMASELA: We were together yes.

MR LAMEY: Did you ever enter one of the houses on the premises?

JOE MAMASELA: Not necessarily really enter, most of the houses that are on the premises were locked.  The only house -he only place that was open, it was a sort of a cell-like place.  It was the only one that was always with the door wide open but we could see it was old cells that used to keep people, we never kept those people there.

MR LAMEY: Can you identify these cells that you refer to on the photographs?

JOE MAMASELA: They are not here but I think when I took the police there they even took those cells photos because they were still open, the door was still open, so I can't see it properly here.

ADV DE JAGER: Photo 7 or 12, what would that be?

JOE MAMASELA: It is not the same thing, I don't think it's the same thing.

MR LAMEY: I think you must refer to Exhibit P Mr Mamasela.

JOE MAMASELA: My eyesight is not so good but - I wouldn't be certain but I will say, in the aerial photograph in photo 1, I would say in my opinion the cells were somewhere in B because they were nearer the house that was used as a main police station.
	Next to that house that was used as a police station, just a few paces on the right hand side you'll find that little house with cells.  I will take my guess it's an aerial photograph, I cannot be certain.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mamasela, I'm going to show you photo number 3 in this booklet, if you can look at it.  Do you see that house?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, this was the house that was used as a police station, there were no cells inside this house.

CHAIRPERSON: The first evening, was anyone of the deceased taken into that house?

JOE MAMASELA: No, the house was locked.  All other premises and that were locked.  The only thing that we used was that shed.  There were keys and it was a chain-like, thick chain around that with a lock.

CHAIRPERSON: As far as you can remember, was anyone of the deceased at any time ever taken to that house?

JOE MAMASELA: No, I've never seen any deceased being taken to this house.

CHAIRPERSON: So if somebody were to come and give evidence to that effect, would you agree or disagree with that?

JOE MAMASELA: No, I would completely disagree with that.

MR LAMEY: Mr Mamasela, on that same bundle which you just had, can you just have a look at - it is Exhibit B I believe.   Could you have a look at photograph number 7?

JOE MAMASELA: These are the cells I'm talking about. These are the cells, they are not in that house, they a little bit further from the house.

MR LAMEY: Yes, we don't dispute that.

JOE MAMASELA: Thank you.

MR LAMEY: Now could you have a look back to Exhibit P, the other bundle of photographs, Exhibit P.

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, I've got it.

MR LAMEY: Can you look at photograph number 7?

JOE MAMASELA: Yes, I see that.

MR LAMEY: Do you recognise that building?