Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-05

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Basically three people that I heard about were injured, it was the Soccer people.  I don't know to what extent.  Some of them were taken by ...(indistinct) vehicles in the area to hospital.

GEORGE BIZOS: Other than your bakkie, was there any other vehicle outside the front part of the building?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: If my memory serves me correctly, Mr Bizos, there were at least two other vehicles in the front, which had been used by CAYCO members.  It was, in your, it was parked onto the side of the road on the pavement between the hall and Kriek.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is that the side where your bakkie was parked?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: My bakkie was on the opposite side.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Bizos.  Mr Alexander, you go to that hall regularly, etc., people who live in that area in Springbok Street, the residents, do they not park their vehicles on the pavement ordinarily or usually?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No Your Worship, where I parked there were two houses immediately next to the Church.  At the time those people didn't have a vehicle and around the corner where the CAYCO members had parked, it wasn't on the side of the houses, it was on the opposite side.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let's get clarity, because I'm not sure whether we are on the same wavelength.  On the side that you vehicle was, were there other vehicles?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: If you were to come up Springbok Street towards Lower Klipfontein Road, now I was on the left.  They were as you come down Springbok Street towards the ELC, they were on the left, so we were on different sides of the road.  It was the same - it was the front entrance side, but we were parked on different sides of the road.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see.

MR LAX: To put it plainly, you were on the house sides and they were on the ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's right and they were on the ELC side, that's correct,

GEORGE BIZOS: So are those the three vehicles?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now what about the parking ground?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Bizos.  My recollection, although it might not be very good of the photo, was all the D were or the C and the D1 and D2 are on the same side of the road.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It's the same round, but it's two-way traffic firstly.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but if you take a look  - Yes, no, you're right.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Thank you Your Worship.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now what - after the explosion, did you see whether there were still any cars on the parking ground?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: What happened after the explosion, I was worried about the vehicles and we were worried about ourselves.  I immediately took the bakkie and I'm not sure how many people got in with me, but I then parked the bakkie in Diza Court which was, if you were to view this photograph, the circle where Mr van Zyl-them had been parking, it was just behind those shops, that is where Diza Court is.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Because one of our members had lived, or lives in Diza Court and I walked back across towards the centre.  One of the CAYCO Regional Members, Nazima Mohamed, had parked her car in the back parking and it stayed overnight as well as some of the ELC's cars which they used during the day were parked there.  The ELC is the Early Learning Centre, the staff working there, because they had social workers etc going out to other resource units, educational units during the day.

CHAIRPERSON: These are vehicles that belonged to the ELC that are used during the day but at night are parked in that parking place.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct, Your Worship.

CHAIRPERSON: How many are you talking about?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: There were about three of those vehicles and Nazima's vehicle was the fourth one.  Nazima Mohamed, or the vehicle that she drove that night.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were those four cars visible to anyone sitting in a car anywhere near the place where Mr van Zyl told us that they parked?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: They would have had a clear view of those cars, Your Worship, if they had been parking where they said they were.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you notice whether any of those cars were damaged or did anyone complain about their car being damaged?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I can't recall that those cars were damaged, or that they weren't damaged.  There were crowds gathering all around on the back side of the ELC as well as the front side and I just mixed in with the crowd.

GEORGE BIZOS: When you were in the Board Room in the state that it was in then, if anyone had come in to the place where the Soccer people were seated, the entrance hall, would that person have heard you speaking in the Board Room?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: They should have heard us speaking because we didn't whisper, we talked normally and the distances basically from the foyer to the Board Room, if I could just put it into context, it's from where I sit now to where that partition is, round about there, the passage way that separates the foyer from the Board Room.

GEORGE BIZOS: About 10 to 12 metres.

CHAIRPERSON: 10 to 12 big metres, I think.  A bit longer perhaps, but ...

GEORGE BIZOS: 15 metres?

CHAIRPERSON: More or less 15.

GEORGE BIZOS: Or perhaps to be fair, we should ask somebody with medium pace ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it looks about 15 to 20 paces to me, but...

GEORGE BIZOS: No, I'll accept that.  Did you speak as softly as you're speaking here, in those meetings or were they animated meetings?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Well it was in the evening, it was quiet, there wasn't lots of traffic, so ja, our voices would carry, but we didn't whisper, we didn't plan anything sinister or anything to that effect, so we had no more meetings.

GEORGE BIZOS: And do photographs 8, 9 and 14 correctly show the damage in the room which the Kewtown Youth Movement - if the meeting had not adjourned early and if the Youth Movement Meeting had not changed the place of the meeting to go into the Board Room, would anyone in the hall have had any chance of living?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Your Worship, it's my opinion that everyone in the hall would have been killed.

GEORGE BIZOS: ;   Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Martini, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Alexander?

MR MARTINI: Thank you Chairperson.  Just a few.

MR MARTINI: Mr Alexander, let's just start off.  The aims of the Kewtown movement you say were political economic and social, is that correct?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

MR MARTINI: And the Kewtown Youth Movement was affiliated to the Youth Congress, if I understand your evidence correctly?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.  Cape Youth Congress.

MR MARTINI: Thank you, Cape Youth Congress.  And that in turn was affiliated to the United Democratic Front?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's also correct.

MR MARTINI: And the United Democratic Front, was that affiliated to the ANC?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It was never affiliated to the ANC.  It was above-board, legitimate organisation at the time, it was ...(indistinct) organisation, civics, youths etc.

MR MARTINI: When I say affiliated, maybe I used the wrong word.  Did it support the policies of the ANC?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Well in broader terms, yes, it did.

MR MARTINI: I assume so.   I mean, the Kewtown Youth Movement, or the Cape Youth Congress, didn't support the Government of the day, did they?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct, we didn't support the government of the day.

MR MARTINI: Correct.  You were anti the Government of the day.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

MR MARTINI: I accept that.  And would you have subscribed to whatever policies the ANC at the time, or the philosophy of the ANC at the time, would you have subscribed to their philosophies and doctrines in respect of their attitude towards the Government of the day?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: To a limited extent.  We at no point told people to commit acts of violence, or sabotage, or terror.