Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-09

CHAIRPERSON: Who do you call in the next case?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.  I'm calling Themba David Marambana, application number 1071/96.  And for the record, Chairperson, I'm Zuko Mapoma, the applicant's leader.

CHAIRPERSON: And for the record, I'm Judge Pillay.  I'm going to ask my colleagues to similarly identify themselves.

ADV DE JAGER: Chris de Jager.

ADV SANDI: Nsikilelo Sandi.

CHAIRPERSON: Miss Collett, will you do the same please?

MS COLLETT: I'm Advocate Collett, representing the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, is there any representation for victims or interested parties in this matter?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, there are victims, the parents of the deceased person, by the name of Thembile Ngubo, the father and Novusile Ngubo, the mother.  They are not legally represented.  I have consulted ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell that?

MR MAPOMA: N-G-U-B-O.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, they are from Feni Location, F-E-N-I Location, P O Box 22, Peddie - 5640.

CHAIRPERSON: Would the father be regarded as the victim?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed, Ms Collett.

MS COLLETT: Commissioners, I would like to let the applicant testify and explain as to what happened on the day in question.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Marambana, what language would you like to use?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS COLLETT: Thank you.
	Mr Marambana, is it correct that you were a member of the Ciskei Defence Force?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Yes, that is correct.

MS COLLETT: Now is it correct that you were a member of the Ciskei Defence Force in 1992?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Yes, that is correct.

MS COLLETT: Now can you tell us what happened in the Ciskei Defence Force on the 7th of September 1992?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: On the 7th of September 1992, people were shot at Bisho.  That led to a division between the Ciskei residents and the soldiers.

MS COLLETT: Now the incident that you're referring to on the 7th of September 1992, is that the incident that is commonly known as the Bisho Massacre?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Yes, exactly.

MS COLLETT: Did you play any role, were you at the stadium when the actual killing took place?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: I never played a role at Bisho because I was at Mdantsane Police Station, I was on stand-by.

MS COLLETT: Now after that particular incident on the 7th of September 1992, what was the attitude of the civilians of the former Ciskei towards the Ciskei Defence Force members?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: The people of Ciskei were very angry because of what happened, because of what was done by the soldiers, the soldiers who killed a lot of people.  And that actually created a conflict between the soldiers and the people of Ciskei.

CHAIRPERSON: When did that start to occur?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Which on are you referring to Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: When this attitude developed towards the members of the Defence Force?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: That started just after the shooting at Bisho.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now was it the same day or a few days or the next day or when?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: That took place on the very same day.  People showed their anger at the same time.

MS COLLETT: Thank you.
	Now as a member of the Ciskei Defence Force at the time, can you describe to the Committee what was actually happening to the Ciskei Defence Force members at the hands of the civilians.

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: What happened there, the soldiers were not happy because of the way they used to be killed and that some of them left their homes and stayed at the base with all their belongings.  They had to stay there without their families because the people of Ciskei were very angry.

MS COLLETT: Now you yourself, did you do anything in particular after this Bisho Massacre to try and avert confrontation between yourself and the civilians?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: There was nothing that I did because I was at Bisho.

MS COLLETT: Did you wear your military uniform?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: I did not wear my uniform because I did not want to be identified as one of the soldiers in Ciskei.

MS COLLETT: Why was that?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: The reason for that, the people were after us.  The people of Ciskei were after us and more especially in King William's Town the people would chase.  The would result to the killing and even the people would throw some rotten stuff or rotten fruit to us because they wanted to show their anger.

MS COLLETT: Were there members of the Ciskei Defence Force whom you knew that were injured or were victimised by the civilians at the time?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Yes, there are some people that I know and one of them, when I realised this thing for the first time the other one was Dimbaza and the other one is from Mdantsane.

MS COLLETT: Were the Ciskei Defence Force soldiers safe in their houses?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: They were not safe.  I am sure about that one.

MS COLLETT: Were some of the house of the Ciskei Defence Force members ever burnt?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Yes, their houses were burnt down, more especially in areas that were next to King William's Town.

MS COLLETT: Now what was your feeling, how did you feel at the time towards the civilians?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: I don't want to lie, I was afraid of them because I was thinking what happened to my colleagues might also happen to me at any time as a member of the Ciskei Defence Force.

MS COLLETT: Now at that stage how long had you been ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do to protect yourself or to avoid being attacked, if those were your beliefs and feelings?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: To protect myself I used to be, I used to stay at Bisho 161 Battalion so that I did not meet with the people of Ciskei.

MS COLLETT: Now on the particular day in question you were at your house, is that correct?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Yes, that is correct.

MS COLLETT: And were you in the company of anybody?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: Yes.

MS COLLETT: In whose company were you?

THEMBA DAVID MARAMBANA: I was with my girlfriend.

MS COLLETT: Can you tell the Committee what happened?