Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-05

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Meyer.

MR MEYER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I call Mr Nesamari to testify.  He will make use of the Interpreter.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: (sworn states)

MR MEYER: Mr Nesamari can we start off, would you put your current occupation and your residential address on record.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Now I am a captain in the Police Service.  I am working in the Far North area as a staff officer.  I am staying at Thohoyandou, Block P East.

MR MEYER: During the early 1980's is it correct that you were a member of the Venda National Force?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes.

MR MEYER: And which branch of the national force were you with?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: I was attached to the Security Branch.

MR MEYER: Now it's common cause that during October 1981 there was an attack on the Sibasa Police Station, is that correct?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes it's correct.

MR MEYER: Were you involved in investigating this attack?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes I was part of the investigations.

MR MEYER: What was your rank at that stage?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: I was a constable.

MR MEYER: Now following on the attack on the police station a number of arrests were made, is that correct?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes that is correct.

MR MEYER: Were you involved in those arrests or some of them?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes.

MR MEYER: Now seeing as this point has been raised, what - it's common cause also that a large number of the people who were arrested were people involved with the Lutheran Church, do you agree with that?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes it's correct.

MR MEYER: What made you link these people that belonged to the Church to the bombing of the police station?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: As far as I am concerned as a member of the team which was investigating there was information which was brought to the office although I couldn't remember where the information was coming from, but it's the directives which were received that there is information which is linking the van of the Lutheran Centre, which is in Buyste(?) and a kombi which is linked with the bombing of the police station and the kombi was belonging to Mr Chikororo.  But that information it's then that we linked the pastors and the bombing of the police station.

MR MEYER: If we can concentrate on Dean Farisani as such, what information did you have that connected him to the attack or the planning thereof?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: If you can look in Mr Farisani, although I was still a young official of the police service I was not involved in analysing the information I hope Farisani was - directive was issued so that he can be arrested because he was the head of the church at Chamungani, I mean in that Centre of the Lutheran Church. That is why it is obvious that he must be held responsible why the van of the Church was involved in the bombing.

MR MEYER: Now after the - these people that are also in your statement listed in paragraph 15 they were arrested and then they were detained and then they were interrogated, is that correct?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes they were arrested and interrogated.

MR MEYER: Did you form part of the team that interrogated it?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes I was part of them.

MR MEYER: It is also now common cause that a large number of these people were assaulted and tortured during the interrogations, do you agree with that?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes that's correct.

MR MEYER: Were you yourself involved in some of the assaults and tortures?

MR MEYER: Excuse me Mr Chairman I am not hearing the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...not getting the interpretation.

INTERPRETER: His problem is now solved.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: I want to tell this Commission that I was one of the people who participated in the assaulting of the detainees at that time.

MR MEYER: Let's deal with the people you assaulted in the same order as that stated in your application.  The first person that you mentioned there is Reverend Posiwa and you said that you cannot clearly remember whether or not you assaulted him but that it is possible that you slapped and/or punched him.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: When I wanted to explain in detail I want, if this Committee can allow me to explain in Mr Posiwa's cases and even Mr Farisani and Mr Poswana's case.  I don't deny that I participated in their assault but I want this Committee to know that these people were the members of the Church, of which I am also part of them, and I used to respect them when it comes to Church matters.  That is why when you can see - if you can look in my application that I indicated that my participating is not clear that I did this or not.  But what I can explain is that when Reverend Posiwa was assaulted by Mr Ramaligela and Managa I was also there.
	But what I participated in is that I was just like a person who was working as a person who used to submit tools, just like spade work.  I used to supply with water so that they can pour the water in the bag and if he was handcuffed I used to assist while he was handcuffed and assisting if a person is being electrically shocked, by that electricity telephone.  I used to assist, because when a person is being shocked his body will jerk and I used to just put my hand so that the person cannot take off the wires which were attached to them.  Not that I am denying that I participated in slapping him or kicking him, but my respect was not far from those people.

MR MEYER: So what you are saying is that you, with regard to the Reverends, people who were pastors of the Church, are you saying that yes, you were involved in their torture and assaults on them, but in their cases it was mostly a case of assisting your colleagues while they were doing the serious torture with electric shock treatment, the water treatment and so on?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes that is true.

MR MEYER: But you are also not denying that you might have, or you did, and I am specifically referring only to Reverend Posiwa at this stage, you did assault him by slapping him and maybe kicking him and punching him with fists, and that kind of thing.  Is that correct?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes it is true.  I can't dispute that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you or did you not slap him?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: With regard to Mr Posiwa, that is what I am indicating, that I might have slapped him.  I just don't want to explain in detail, I might have possibly slapped him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: We want you to explain in detail.  How are we going to entertain applications if you don't give us details of how you committed these assaults?  We want a full explanation.  We don't want you to tell us that you might or might not have not assaulted him.  We want to know.  You must give us facts.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes, I was involved in beating and making all the assaults.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you or did you not slap him?  If you did slap him where did you slap him and how many times?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well as to how much I can't tell exactly.  However I am quite sure that I did slap him.  I remember when I pulled his hair, while I was pulling ...(indistinct).

SISI KHAMPEPE: Which hair did you pull?  A hair from his head, his body hair?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes from the head.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you or did you not punch him?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: I slapped him.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did you or did you not punch him, not slap him?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: I am not too sure whether you are referring to the fist or kicking or slapping, which one are you referring to?

SISI KHAMPEPE: I am referring to punching, did you ever punch him?

CHAIRPERSON: With your fist.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes I did that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: On which part of his body?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: It was on the face and even on the ribs.

SISI KHAMPEPE: How many times?