Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-22

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well, I'm just putting it to you that we're going to argue in a similar fashion in relation to Adv Omar.  You try and link these people to acts of violence, to provide some or other justification for the decision to eliminate them, whereas in truth and in fact that had little or nothing to do with your decision to select them as targets.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I think I must just repeat that for us what was important and relevant were the structures of the enemy and to identify people within these structures and to act against them so that that could have the effect of destabilisation, or to intimidate them, so that that could ultimately reduce the violence etc committed against the Security Forces, so in other words to act as a counter insurgency measure.

MR KAHANOVITZ: The point I'm making to you, this isn't counter insurgency.  Insurgents are guerrillas who come into the country carrying weapons, correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Alright.  Well let us not then say counter insurgents but just counter action.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Burger, why don't you just call a spade a spade?  We all know the CCB decided that the campaign, the kind of work that Security Forces were involved in at that stage they decided that they were going to kill people who were involved in, for want of a better word, what was regarded as left-wing politics.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: As enemies, left-wing politics in your terms and in our terms enemies.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You, right at the end of your application you say the following, paragraph 5.4 page 151
"The CCB's modus operandi and conduct was based on the actions and modus operandi of similar covert organisations in other countries."
Do you have any idea why you inserted that into your application?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: It was well-known that there was the MOSSAD movement and English and United States movements, the CIA and there were certain organisations in Libya, etc., who acted in these covert ways.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You modelled yourself on the CIA for example and that therefore the CIA is an organisation which assassinates opponents of the American Government inside America, is that what you're trying to say?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That's the impression which I got, I can't prove it.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You've had no training whatsoever in the methods adopted by covert organisations in other countries?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: From what I understand you went on a one week training course somewhere in South Africa.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So therefore you're not in a position to express any comment on whether the CCB's methods are based on the methods used by similar organisations in other countries, you just stuck that into your amnesty application.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I think it's acceptable to have inserted that paragraph.  We all know about such organisations and the CCB, well I don't deny that the CCB was also based on these covert principles.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now Mr van Zyl seemed to think that his target's first name was Michael Evans.  Now Michael Evans was a person involved in the leadership structures of the End Conscription Campaign.  Are you aware of that?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Is Mr van Zyl wrong in thinking that his target's name was Michael Evans?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: How do you know that?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Because it was directed at Gavin Evans.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well, Mr van Zyl says the target's name was Michael Gavin Evans.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: It might have been that he said that, but it was aimed at Gavin Evans.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see, how do we know, if you tell us that one of the objects of the exercise was to kill someone who was playing an important role in the End Conscription Campaign and if, we know that Michael Evans was playing an important role in the End Conscription Campaign, how do we know that your target wasn't Michael Evans?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: It was Gavin Evans and I think Mr van Zyl was aware of that, he might just have inserted the wrong name, because he afterwards, as we have seen in the newspaper and so, he went to speak to Mr Gavin Evans regarding his actions.  There was no mistake in the order to act against Gavin Evans.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr van Zyl's evidence is that the only way in which he got to know about this was that he wasn't involved in the preparatory process, which you concede, that you and Mr Basson gave him the name and the instructions, so if he got incorrect information, he must have got it from you.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That's correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, you've also testified in your evidence-in-chief that, you took us further, you said that Mr Evans was involved with weapons and explosives and he was moving in and out of the country.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That was the information.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Once again I must put it to you, Mr Evans strongly denies being involved in any such activities and that you're not in the position to dispute that.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I can't.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, you also said in your evidence-in-chief that when Maree was unable to work on the Evans project, you and Mr Basson became involved in preparing the pre-study, correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So, it appears that the project then became yours, because he was the co-ordinator.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I have already explained Chairperson, that Mr Maree was taken off the project as a result of certain problems, he could no longer be involved and the pre-study was then done by myself and Basson to the Managing Director and that we did the pre-study and we proposed that Mr van Zyl and his infrastructure be used.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Why did you not tell the Amnesty Committee in your application about the projects concerning the printing press and the microbus, because on your version, to the very best of your knowledge, these projects were projects which were approved by you and were in fact executed, correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So why didn't you say, if that was your knowledge, why didn't you include them in your amnesty application?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I didn't regard it, well I was under the impression that we were applying for gross violations of human rights and I didn't regard it in that light.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Who gave you, what was the name of the person who gave you the information concerning Mr Evans, that he was involved in military activities?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: The co-ordinator came with the information from the CCB's intelligence channels down to us with the information.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So your only source of information  was Mr Basson?  You spoke to nobody else?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Originally it was just Mr Basson who came with this information.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And subsequently?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Mr Verster.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But weren't you given documents, photographs, a folder?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, I can't remember what was on the project file in totality, but what I do know is that Mr Basson did come with certain names, the names of Mr Evans and couple of other people.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mention is made in one of the statements about a proper folder concerning the target, some history of the person, what they're involved in, computer print-outs of information that is obtained from information sources within the Defence Force.  Did you ever see such files?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So the operative who must now work on Evans, what does he get given?  Just an oral explanation?  There's no CCB file on Gavin Evans, is that what you're saying?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: There is a file?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes, there is a file.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But what's in the file?