Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-24

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: The fact of the matter is that you don't really know what the ANC's policies were with regard to SDU's and in that capacity, you couldn't have been acting under the policies of the ANC?
	I am not saying you weren't acting in good faith, I am saying you couldn't have known the ANC's policies, because you had never been trained in them.  Do you understand?  It is really a simple issue?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, I do.

MR LAX: No further questions Chairperson.  Sorry, there is just one other aspect.  You said that you were the first person to shoot, is that right?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: And you shot the deceased in the stomach or in the region of the stomach?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: You indicated towards his torso, the front part of his torso?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: And you said that he didn't fall down, but he ran away?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

MR LAX: Did he run or did he stagger?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: He took a few steps and Mabuno and Hlongwa and Palela came and shot him and he was stabbed with the bush knife, those who didn't have guns.

MR LAX: Yes, let's just slow down there.  Mabuno came, Hlongwa came and they shot him.  Where did they shoot him?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Mabuno actually shot almost in the front part, just on the body in front as he is indicating.

MR LAX: Yes, and Hlongwa?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: And he also shot.

MR LAX: Where?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: I can't quite remember where, but I quite remember.  I quite remember Mabuno, I can't remember that because he was red with blood.  I can't quite remember.

MR LAX: Now at this point, did they shoot him immediately one after the other, was it very quick?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: yes.

MR LAX: And when what did he do?  Did he fall down at that stage, the deceased?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: He did not die at that particular time.

MR LAX: I did not ask whether he died, I said did he fall down?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: He fell down nearby his place, about a few steps away from his house.

MR LAX: Was he laying on the ground when you hit him with the axe, with the tomahawk?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, he was.

MR LAX: Was it a tomahawk or was it a bush knife?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: I have explained initially that bush was carried by Jogolo Cele and then I took it from him and then I said, because he is still alive, Fanie Mbutho had the tomahawk and he was also using it, and I wasn't aware where did he hit him with this tomahawk.

MR LAX: You see, is that what, did he wrestle with anybody, the deceased?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: He tried to fight back, because when I approached shooting, he tried to hold the gun but then I knew, because I knew that he always carried a gun because he has the gun that is official.

MR LAX: Which gun did he try and hold?  His own gun or your gun?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: He tried to hold my shotgun.

MR LAX: Did he try to take it away from you?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: He was trying to hold the barrel because we found him sitting down, he was trying to hold that barrel and then I shot him at that particular time.

MR LAX: You see, what I don't understand is the evidence in the court was that he was wrestling with you for your gun, he was trying to take it away from you and someone else came and him on the hands where he was holding the gun, either with the bush knife or with the tomahawk and you haven't told us anything about that, why?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: The TRC Committee, I did not actually understand the question that I should actually explain up to that extent.  I am talking about my side, what part did I play.

MR LAX: Apart from the - how many times did you hit him on the head?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Twice with the bush knife.

MR LAX: Did anyone else hit him while he was laying on the ground?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, Fanie Mbutho used the tomahawk, fingers and most of the parts of the body and Jogolo as well.

MR LAX: How could Jogolo hit him if you had his bush knife?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: I have explained that the bush knife, I used it when he was down there, just before he died.  After shooting him, while he was laying down nearby, that is when I took the bush knife from Jogolo Cele, who is the accused who is late.

MR LAX: I see.  Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Msani is there any reason why before you and your co-perpetrators attacked the deceased, that you didn't go to your Commander Mr Luthuli to report to him that you were going to kill a person?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is that reason?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Mr Luthuli was a working person at that particular time.  It was during the week on a Wednesday and he wasn't around.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just for my information, what was Mr Luthuli's first name?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Bukela Luthuli.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just spell that please?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Bukela.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry what was Mabuno's full name?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: It is just Mabuno Hlongwa, that is all.

CHAIRPERSON: At one place, one place in your evidence Mr Msani, you said that when you went to attack the deceased, three of you went to the top end of the house and three of you stayed at the bottom end of the house, and then later on in your evidence, you said that five of you went to attack.  What is the position, were there six of you or were there five of you at the attack on Mr Mkhize?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: We were five.

CHAIRPERSON: Finally, when you shot Mr Mkhize in the stomach, approximately how far away were you from him when you fired the shot?   If you could just indicate the distance in this hall?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: I would actually say the Mkhize's house would be a white square, then a round house, there is a road nearby which actually leads to Mkhize's tuck shop and there was a tree and the door was, the rondawel, he was sitting there at that door.
	It was nearby, he wasn't that far, it was close.

CHAIRPERSON: About as far as that fan is from you?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, he wasn't that far.  We were nearby, close range?

CHAIRPERSON: Plus minus four or five paces.

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Ngubani, do you have any questions rising out of questions that were put by members of the Committee?

MR NGUBANE: Yes Mr Chairman, just one question.  Luthuli, the Commander, was he aware that you were on the hunt for Mr Mkhize?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, he did.

MR NGUBANE: Are you of the opinion that if you had approached him immediately before you could kill Mr Mkhize, he would have no doubt agreed that you should go ahead?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: Yes, I think so.  I think he wouldn't agree because it was not the ANC's aim that we should kill people.
	But it was the situation that forced us to fight IFP.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you.  I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, do you have any questions arising?

MS THABETE: Yes Mr Chairman.  Can you, you say the objective if I understand you correctly, was to protect yourselves or the ANC's policies was that you should protect yourselves.  How were you expected to protect yourselves?

GWENZAWAKHE NICHOLAS MSANI: We were expected that in the area that we live, if the IFP comes burning the houses, shooting us, attacking us, we should come out with our guns and retaliate and shoot back.

MS THABETE: I am asking this question because you just said now it was not the ANC's aim for you to kill people.  Can you clarify what you meant by that?