Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: While we were in the mountain, others alighted the bakkies and also she was removed from the bakkie.  She was questioned as to who else was involved in this witchcraft, and she said there was a certain man by the name of Mahlangu and he was also involved.  Other comrades left the place, the mountain and went to fetch Mahlangu and his son was also present.
	I said to Phillip Mtsweni that since we had passed the Police station, it might happen that Police would follow us and find us there and we will have a problem to run away because we have cars.  I decided that we should drive these two bakkies back home.  I got inside.

MR RICHARD: Stop there.  There were two bakkies, you got into the one bakkie, who got into the other bakkie?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: I got inside the one, I was driving, and Phillip Mtsweni also got inside the one that he was driving.  In the one that I was driving, there was a five litre container with two to three litres petrol.  I took this five litre container and gave it to Victor Ntuli.
	Then we told them that we were going to drop the bakkies at home and we were going to come back, because there was another group  which went to fetch Mahlangu and we told them that we were going to come back to the mountain.  When we arrived at home, as we were approaching in the main road, the two bakkies, Police van and as we were driving towards home, the Police vans followed us and they also entered our gate at home, with us.
	I got inside the yard and the Police van also got inside.  Phillip stopped the van which he was driving, next to the road.  The Police got inside the yard with me and they asked me if I was Mabhoko.   As I was surprised, one inside the van said "yes, it was him, the one who you are talking to", and then the Police started assaulting me.
	They took me and they put me inside the Police van.   They said to me I must go and show them where I lived and Phillip as well was put behind the Police van.  We found other people at the back, I think Leah was one of them.
	Just before they arrived at the main road, they stopped the van, they said to me I must come and sit in front.   They said I must go and show them where I had dropped Emma Mtsweni together with the people who were in the van that I was driving.  I got inside, in front of the van, I was the fourth person because there were three Police in front.  
	As we were approaching the mountain where we had left them, we saw a fire.  I was still inside the Police van.  We went with them and I pointed where I had left Emma and when we arrived there, we didn't find anyone.  We had discovered that the Police van couldn't drive to get closer to the place where she was burning.
	They stopped, they took sticks from the trees and they started assaulting us.  Other Police, after they alighted from the Police van, walked and got closer to where Emma was burning and they came back, they told us that she had been burnt and I don't know what else happened after this.

MR RICHARD: Now, to shorten the number of questions, I will ask you, you were here in this room yesterday listening to the evidence of Michael and Daniel Phasha, is that not correct?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes, it is so, I was present.

MR RICHARD: Now, you heard the evidence about what was a moloi and what was an ngaka, do you remember that?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes, I will say I do remember.

MR RICHARD: Do you agree that the difference between a moloi and an ngaka?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes, according to my belief, it is like that, there is a difference.

MR RICHARD: This morning we have had a further word, sangoma.  A sangoma, is a sangoma the same as a moloi or the same as an ngaka?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: I think a sangoma and an ngaka is the same thing, and they are not a witch.

MR RICHARD: Okay.  Now, my next question is why do you say the killing, the burning of a person who was suspected of bewitching your parents, was political?  Could you tell us?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

MR RICHARD: My question is, you say that the act with which you are associated which constitutes a crime, that is the burning of Emma Mtsweni was political.  Is that not correct?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes, that is what I am saying.

MR RICHARD: My question then is why do you say it was political?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: I am saying so because I didn't take the decision all by myself to do such a thing, because if it wasn't political, I was going to go alone and do such a thing.
	Another thing, there was a strategy which was used that a witch and an informer, those are the people to be burnt.  We knew that these two were obstacles in things which we wanted to do politically.

MR RICHARD: Now, why was a witch considered to be in the same category as an impimpi?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: In or belief, in our communities, we believe that a witch is someone who is jealous and who destroys all the beauty of the community.   An impimpi or an informer is someone who takes things to an opponent, in order for an opponent to attack you, like taking information to the Police.  People like that at the time, we had agreed that these two people, or these two types of people were the ones suitable for necklacing, because they were obstacles in our way to development.

MR RICHARD: How did you see that a moloi or a witch could prejudice the liberation struggle, what could they do to affect its outcome?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: As I had explained that according to our belief, a witch is someone who doesn't like development, they always like killing and evil things, therefore we didn't want witches and informers.

MR RICHARD: How did you think the killing of your parents by the witch, would benefit those oppose to the liberation struggle?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

MR RICHARD: You tell us that a person like a moloi can cause somebody's death, am I right or wrong?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, if a moloi could or did tell your parents, how do you think that that would assist those who opposed the liberation struggle?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: If a witch kill our parents, eventually we will have more offence and that will lead to less development.  That is why I am saying we don't need witches in the communities.

MR RICHARD: On the hillside, were people silent or were they singing, were they toyi-toying?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: People were toyi-toying and singing.

MR RICHARD: What were they singing?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: One song which they sang was saying (indistinct), and another one was that impimpi, yes, she is one, moloi, yes, she is one.

MR RICHARD: Were they singing any other songs?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: There were quite a number of songs which were sang, but I do remember the ones that I have just mentioned.

MR RICHARD: Now, where were your ANC leaders at the stage that you were on the mountain, before you left to take the bakkie back?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: When we were in the mountain, they were there, they were present.

MR RICHARD: My last question, if what I am going to turn generally the ANC comrades weren't there, would you have bought the petrol to burn Emma Mtsweni?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: No.    I couldn't have done that alone.  If I had other means or if I wanted Emma dead, I would have done it alone when she first came to accuse us.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard.  Mr Mokoena?

MR MOKOENA: No questions, Mr Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOKOENA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Mr Mtsweni, to which political organisation did your parents belong, were they supporters or members of a particular, specific organisation?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: I would be lying if I say I know that they were supporters of a political organisation.  I do not have an answer to that.