Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1997-03-17

MR BLOEM: I readily must concede.  Not 'order' what was meant, was a collective decision was taken.  I am terribly sorry about the use of the word 'order', but it was a collective decision which was taken. And he formed part of that decision and we need to look at the acts which were committed in the light of the history of that decision.  And that history is that it was
a collective decision, based on the circumstances in Klipplaat at the time.
	Therefore, Mr Chairman, my submission is that the act was committed by the applicant because he bona fide believed that he was furthering the political struggle of the people in Klipplaat at the time.

SISI KHAMPEPE: What was that struggle, Mr Bloem, to topple the local Council's structure, which they have successfully done by having almost many of them resigning from that structure?

HASSAN MALL: Either resigning or being converted to their view.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And being integrated into their own community.

MR BLOEM: The word used by you, member of the Committee, is that 'almost' all of the members were either converted or driven out or were convinced to step down as Councillors, except for EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
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one.  And that person was Mrs Hanabe, who on the evidence before you refused, in fact the applicant goes to the extent of saying, albeit that she was now residing in Uitenhage she was still coming to Klipplaat.  And it is in context of that.  Whatever she was doing she still was, the word 'threat' would be strong under the circumstances, but something very close to a threat, because she was still a Councillor at the time.

HASSAN MALL: I think isn't the reality that they were called in one by one and the community was told, all of them have agreed, she just refuses and to sum it all up, it is her refusal to step down, is the be all and the end all of the case against her.  Plain and simple, she refuses to step down.   Something must be done to eliminate her and the attempted killing is there for no other reason but to achieve one objective and that was to
satisfy themselves that they have done something because she refused to step down. Isn't that basically the whole case?

MR BLOEM: Can I just reply and say I agree because that is the evidence of the applicant.  His evidence was to the effect that we wanted to kill her because she did not want to resign and the terrible deeds committed by her, but Sir, I must stress it was not to satisfy the applicant himself.   The applicant bona fide believed that at the time when he was committing this offence he was not doing it out of personal greed or becuase he wanted to get at Mrs Hanabe, it was done in a certain context and the context which I am talking about is that he thought that he was acting in the best interest of the community from which he came.  That is the context within which I submit, he committed this offence.

HASSAN MALL: I understand.

MR BLOEM: Can I just have one second.

HASSAN MALL: Certainly.
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MR BLOEM: That I have no further submissions.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.  Mr Brink is there anything you wish to say?

UNKNOWN: Very, very briefly Mr Chairman.
	I think you will anticipate the submissions I make in regard to problems the applicant has in relation to ...(intervention)

HASSAN MALL: Well, you need not repeat them.

MR BRINK: No, I do not intend to, I say you can anticipate those.  But I suppose in fairness to him it might well be argued that having regard to the history and the problems that happened in this country in the so-called black townships, black local authorities imposed from above, it was all over the country, the resentment and therefore the burnings, and the killings and the assaults and so on of those who were acting as what were regarded as puppets of the Government, one knows that that happened.	It's a question of proportionality it seems to me is a real problem here.

HASSAN MALL: It is.

MR BRINK: But you see, although Mrs Hanabe was, to coin a word, 'an impotent' Mayor, not Mayoress, she was Mayor in fact, had no powers, she was still regarded by these people as an undesirable symbol of oppression and I suppose it might be argued on his behalf, get rid of that symbol and they were at peace.

JUDGE WILSON: It was argued but they had driven that symbol out of Klipplaat.  She came back because she was working there.  She was still Deputy Headmistress of the school, wasn't she?

MR BRINK: It is clear, I mean I hold no brief,  I don't make a submission on his behalf, but I think in fairness, that is something that does possibly count in his favour.
	Those are my submissions.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.  Mr Bloem, thank you very much for
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rendering such assistance as you were able to render to the applicant.

MR BLOEM: Thank you Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: The Committee will reserve its decision and will make it known in due course.

MR BLOEM: As it pleases you.

HASSAN MALL: The Committee will adjourn and Mr Brink, what is the earliest - can we resume at nine o'clock tomorrow morning?

MR BRINK: Yes.

HASSAN MALL: Have you satisfied yourself that the Attorney who is appearing for the applicants in that matter knows?

MR BRINK: No.  I do not know whether there is representation of Mr Makrosi.  Arrangements were set in foot about that when the Form 2's were sent to these people.   As soon as we knew the venue, we knew the venue was on the 23rd or 24th of February and notices were sent out on the 25th, through the Investigative Unit with the legal aid application form.	Whether Mr Machaka has resolved that with his people I am unaware, but I will be talking to Mrs Burts about this this evening as well.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Brink I am sure the Regional Office might be able to come to our assistance in that regard.

MR BRINK: I sincerely hope so.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.  I don't want to go around saying that we will resume at nine o' clock tomorrow morning and find that we are delayed and that you have
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
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