Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: As we were fighting - after all these people died, they lost their lives, that is tragic because we are not created to kill others. I ask for forgiveness. I would not like this to happen as it did then, however we must bear in mind that circumstances were such that we ended up involved in such actions.  I ask for forgiveness to the parents and the next of kin of those who lost their lives.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Just one last aspect that I want to deal with, who did you get your instructions from in regard to the operation itself - what to do, when to do, where to do it, where did you get those instructions from?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: My commander was Luyanda, that is all I know.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Do you know a person by the name of Xuma?

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell that?

NORMAN ARENDSE: It's X-u-m-a, Mr Chairman.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I don't know the name Xuma but I'm sure if I would see him I would be able to recognise him.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Just one last question, do you know a person by the name of Sipho Polite?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes, I know him.

NORMAN ARENDSE: How do you know him?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: He was a member of the High Command in Transkei, I actually know him from the Transkei.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Do you know whether he had anything to do with this - with the operation, with the Heidelberg Tavern operation?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No, I don't know.  I don't think he had anything to do with this, we are the people who were involved.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV ARENDSE

JUDGE WILSON: Before you start Mr Prior, can I just try to clarify?
	You were in the Transkei, were you?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Correct Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: And who told you that you had to go and become a member a unit that was to carry out operations in the Cape?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Nonuba.

JUDGE WILSON: Did he tell you personally?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Nonuba took me from where I was staying and he took me to Luyanda's place, he told me that I'm going to Cape Town.  I did not know at the time what I was going to do in Cape Town.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Prior, just one question to clarify something from the applicant.
	When you say you do not know Mr Xuma, ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He says he doesn't know the name.

ADV SANDI: Have you heard of him?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: First of all, a lot of nicknames are used - I don't know that particular name Sir.

ADV SANDI: When you came down to Cape Town for this particular mission, was it the first time that you came to Cape Town?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Correct Sir.

ADV SANDI: You have not been in Cape Town before in your life?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No, that was my first time.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mabala, can I accept that you understand what a full disclosure means in your amnesty application?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Please repeat the question - elaborate?

MR PRIOR: Do you understand what is meant by a full disclosure, to tell this Committee the truth and all the facts as they occurred in connection with the attack?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes, I understand well Sir.

MR PRIOR: All right.  You say if you see Mr Xuma you'll be able to say whether you know him or not?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I told this panel that it is this name Xuma that I don't know, I don't know the name Xuma.

MR PRIOR: I understand Mr Chairman, that Mr Xuma is present as an implicated person, may he possibly just stand that the witness can maybe identify him?

CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr Xuma present?  Will you just come forward Mr Xuma?  What are your full names?  What are your full names?

MR XUMA: I'm Bulelani.

CHAIRPERSON: I asked you for your full names, you just said Bulelani.

MR XUMA: Yes, I'm saying my name is Bulelani Sipho Xuma.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know this gentleman - Mr Xuma?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I know this comrade.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, you are excused, you can go back.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Is it correct that Mr Xuma was at the time of the Heidelberg attack, the Director of Operations for APLA?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: The person who brought me to the Heidelberg Tavern was Nonuba only - I know Nonuba in connection with this.

JUDGE WILSON: Will you answer the question.  The question was - had nothing to do with taking you to the Heidelberg Tavern, it was whether at the time the gentleman you've just identified was the Director of Operations for APLA.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: He was a member of the High Command at the time.

MR PRIOR: Was he Director of Operations at that time?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: He was the member of the High Command.  He was member of the High Command at the time when I came to the Heidelberg Tavern.

MR PRIOR: Did you see Mr Xuma at any stage before you arrived in Cape Town or while you were in Cape Town, that is just prior to the attack at Heidelberg?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No, I did not see him Sir.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, the statement of Sipho Bulelani Xuma which was circulated, it was handed by his legal representative, may I have it marked as Exhibit C -  I intend to refer to the detail of the statement?

CHAIRPERSON: This document which has been handed in as being the statement of Mr Xuma will be Exhibit C.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I want to read to you the contents of paragraph 11 of the statement, please listen carefully
"On behalf of the High Command of APLA in my capacity as the member or members of High Command of APLA, the Deputy Director of Operation and Head of Special Operations, I have nothing to hide, affirm unashamedly with pride that Brian Vuyisile Madasi who happened to be Unit Commander, Humphrey Luyanda Gqomfa and Zola Mabala, in an order group attended by myself and late comrade Sumiso Nonuba were given clear and loud orders to conduct attacks in Cape Town"
Is that correct?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: What is your point Sir?

MR PRIOR: Would you answer the question, is that correct - the passage I've read out to you, is that true?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I cannot dispute it.

MR PRIOR: So now do you admit that before you arrived in Cape Town, you attended an order group together with Mr Madasi, Mr Gqomfa, comrade Nonuba and the Director of Operations or the Deputy Director, Mr Xuma and there you were given clear orders to go and conduct attacks in Cape Town, is that what you're admitting?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Correct, Sir.

MR PRIOR: And I want to put to you what appears in paragraph 12 - he goes further, he says that
"Suffice to say that the Heidelberg Tavern was attacked as a result of orders given by me in my capacity as APLA's Head of Special Operations.  According to intelligence reports prior to the attack, we learnt that the Heidelberg Tavern was a regular relax-in for South African police members"
Is that true?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I cannot answer that because I do not know about it.  I got an order from Luyanda, I don't know about that statement - I got all my orders from Luyanda.

MR PRIOR: Mr Xuma certainly makes no mistake when he says that Brian Madasi was the unit commander to go to Cape Town to carry out certain attacks, now that is completely different to your evidence and the evidence of Mr Gqomfa as well as Mr Madasi.  Can you explain?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: This is the commander I know - this commander that I'm pointing at is the one I know, I got orders from this person.

JUDGE WILSON: I think it should be recorded he was pointed at Mr Gqomfa.
	Why did you tell us a moment ago as I understood your evidence, that you didn't see Mr Xuma before you came to Cape Town?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I did not see Mr Xuma, I used to see him in the Transkei but just before I came to Cape Town I remember vaguely.  I don't remember clearly, I did not see him just before I came to Cape Town.