Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-21

CHAIRPERSON: And the body that was left lying there?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes I remember him.

CHAIRPERSON: Then why isn't he in your application?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Whose name are you talking about?

CHAIRPERSON: The three people who were killed.  You have said you remember the three, but in you application you say only two people were killed.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: It is because this person who was shot by Comrade Dolo and Phila Scorpion, and Scorpion, I was not sure whether he was dead or alive.  The only ones I saw that were dead are the ones I was looking at, which is Mr Tsemane and this white female.  That is why in my application I only mention two people.

ADV SANDI: Do you know any person by the name Jabo?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Comrades used many chimerengas.  There were some Comrades who called themselves by the name Jabo.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) injured in this attack?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: All I know is that Mr Tsemane is the one who died because I heard people talking about him in the location and I realised that it was Mr Tsemane who died.

CHAIRPERSON: In your application which I have already referred to you, you say two persons was killed in this act, three injured.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: May you repeat what you have said?

CHAIRPERSON: In you application which is before you, which I have referred you to, you say two persons was killed in this act, three injured.  I want to know who those three injured were that you write about in your application.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Those who were injured are the one who I shot at with an R4 rifle and the one who Comrade Dolo tried to run down with his car and the one who was shot by Comrade Scorpion.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) to run down injured

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: He looked as if he was limping.  I don't know whether he got injured when the car was shot at.  I don't know whether he was injured at the first time when the car was shot at, but he seemed limping by the time I looked at him.

CHAIRPERSON: And are you seriously suggesting that the man who Dolo shot in the head at close range, whose body was lying on the road, you thought he was just injured?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Because I am not a doctor.  I thought, I can't tell whether he was only injured, or dead.

CHAIRPERSON: The body was fairly close to you.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No, the body was not close to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you told us it was close enough for the women to be frightened of it.  Have you forgotten that you have told us that in your evidence this morning?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: What I said is the body was lying along the road and I thought these ladies were frightened by this body who is blood all over it.  I didn't say that body was next to me or near to me.

CHAIRPERSON: You have now said you could see there was blood all over it.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, blood was visible because if a cloth is bright, and blood is all over it, then you can see that, because this person was wearing a bright clothes or bright clothing, and blood could be seen all over that clothing.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Carry on.

MR LAX: Mr Makoala, just something we got to pick up here, but just before I do.  The man's head was just about blown apart.  If you could see there was blood all over the place, you would have seen that his head was just about blown apart.  It would have been pretty obvious to anybody.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No, I couldn't see where the bullet went through because of the distance between me and the body, but blood can be seen because it flows all over clothes.

MR LAX: Now when we dealt with the question of why Jabo's name appears under this particular operation you said you think you'd made a mistake.  You didn't know any Jabos.  Was that your answer, have I got it right?  Just let him answer Mr Mthembu.  He can tell me if I'm wrong.

MR MTHEMBU: No, the answer Mr Lax was so many of the Comrades used the name Jabo.

MR LAX: No, you got it wrong.  That's why I said let him answer.  That was much later he said that about chimerengan names.  When he first answered the Judge about Jabo, not Mr Sandi, he said he didn't recognise the name, he might have made a mistake.  He didn't know anyone called Jabo at that time.  That's what he said, that was his answer at that stage.  Later on when Mr Sandi asked him about it he ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: With respect my friend, my recollection of his answer to me, the first answer was "I can't remember who Jabo is".

MR LAX: Precisely.

CHAIRPERSON: Not that he didn't know any Jabo.

MR LAX: Well, he can't remember who Jabo is.  Fair enough.  That was the answer.  Am I correct that you can't remember who Jabo is?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR LAX: Well then why do you put the name Jabo in a number of incidents on this annexure of yours if you don't know who this person is?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: In this incident the people I were with .  I can't remember among them who was using the name Jabo.

MR LAX: The question is, in your annexure here on page 11 you use the name Jabo three times in relation to three different incidents, and you tell us you can't remember who Jabo was.  Why does his name appear in three different incidents if you can't remember who he is?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I can't remember which other Comrade used the name Jabo.  As I've explained earlier that most Comrades used the name Jabo.

MR LAX: Then how could you put that name here if you don't know who it is?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I have explained earlier that by the time I made my application there was no-one guiding me through and in my mind there were so many incidents, because there are so many things that happened and the names of the Comrades involved were so many, and that is where I believe an error was committed with the messing up of names.

MR PRIOR: There are probably no more than seven or eight separate names here that are used consistently throughout all these attacks.  Have a look.  Count them for yourself.  You mention Roger, you mention Kenny, you mention Scorpio.  Then you mentioned Kenny, Scorpio and then you mention Oupa.  Then you mention Temba Ngesi, Kenny and Jabo.  Then you mention Jabo, Scorpion, Kenny and Roger.  Scorpion, Max and Kenny.  Scorpion, Kenny, Jabo.  Do you see that?  And then right at the very bottom you mention General and Lawrence.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes I can see those names.  What I remember is that there was another Comrade who I was involved with in an operation who is called Jabo.  But in this attack I am talking about, that is the Lady Grey ambush, their was no Comrade named Jabo.

MR LAX: You will notice that up until Umtata you were with the same group of people most of the time.  So we can count Lawrence and General out of this annexure for the purposes of this discussion.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I think if you look, that was an 1994 attack.  All the other were the 1992 attacks, so this was a completely different event.

MR LAX: Yes, that's what I am getting at.  So during the period 1992 you were involved with, broadly, one group of people with a few small exceptions.  Do you concede that?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: What I can say is that there were other Comrades with whom I worked with.  Like the Comrade who appeared at the bottom, that is General Lawrence and Max and Oupa.  It wasn't only the Comrades I was with at Lady Grey Ambush.  There were other Comrades with whom I worked.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) were other Comrades in other matters that you haven't set out in your amnesty application because Mr Lax has read to you the names of all the people who appear in the annexure to your amnesty application.  Are you now saying you worked with other Comrades in other operations which you haven't disclosed?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I'm only talking about the operation that appear in this annexure.