Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-22

MR BOTHA: Yes, Mr Chairperson, may I be excused to take my place there at the back?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BOTHA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Botha, to the extent that we don't see your face, we can easily forget that you are here.  If there is anything that you'd like to put to the witnesses, would you let us know?

MR BOTHA: I will indeed, thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: As long as you are comfortable wherever you are.

MR BOTHA: Thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Magubane, when we talk about Rooikop, we are speaking about that man, Mr Greeff, do you accept that?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Now your evidence is that neither Mr Peens nor Mr Greeff were in Boipatong that night, is that correct?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: If they had been in Boipatong, or let me put it this way, if there had been police in Boipatong during the attack, could you have missed them?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: If police were there, I would have recognised them.  Although I would not know their names but I would have recognised them.

MR BERGER: And if policemen were in Boipatong in a Caspir, you would definitely have known that, am I right?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct, if police were there with us with a Caspir in Boipatong, I would have known that.

MR BERGER: And is it your evidence that nobody has ever told you, and when I say "nobody" I mean not one of your co-attackers or your co-applicants or your co-accused or anybody at KwaMadala, nobody has mentioned to you that the police were in Boipatong on the night of the attack?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: There's no person who would have told me that.  If somebody tried to tell me that I would have disagreed with him, I would have told him that he is lying.

MR BERGER: And in particular, nobody has said to you that Mr Peens or Mr Greeff were in a Caspir in Boipatong on the night of the attack?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: There's no-one who ever said that to me.

MR BERGER: When did you see Mr Greeff, Rooikop, for the first time?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is when he was arresting me under regulations Act.

MR BERGER: Is that the Regulation 3 that you referred to?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is Regulation 3.

MR BERGER: When you talk about Regulation 3, are you referring to State of Emergency Regulations?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And when was that, that Rooikop arrested you?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: It was around 1994.  I don't remember well but we had been in prison for about a month.  That is when I was now arrested for this Boipatong massacre.  I think it was in 1994.

MR BERGER: I think your years are out but don't worry about that, because you also told the Committee that Sergeant Peens also arrested you in terms of Regulation 3, am I right?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Was that the same arrest, when Sergeant Peens arrested you?  Did he arrest you together with Rooikop?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I will not say that they were together because there were many police at KwaMadala, others were outside the hostel, but the person who pointed me and who belonged to the Riot Unit, was Peens.

MR BERGER: And was Rooikop also with the police on that day?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Well I would not say that he was present when I was arrested that day because I did not see him.  There were many police around.  It was at night, I wouldn't be able to see him.

MR BERGER: But when you got taken to the Vanderbijl Park Police Station, you saw Peens there and you saw Rooikop there?  In other words, you saw them working together, would that be fair?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I was taken by Rooikop from the police station.

MR BERGER: Would it be fair to say that you saw Sergeant Peens and Rooikop working together?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I would agree with you because it happened the same day.  The only difference was just hours.

MR BERGER: And you also said that Rooikop used to work together with another policeman called Barnard.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That was during the time I was still young.  They used to beat us, Rooikop, during those days.  Well I don't know whether he's the one who investigated the housebreakings but if it was him he should be old by now.

MR BERGER: Oh, I see, so you were talking about things that happened many years ago?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: The Rooikop that I'm referring to was working with Barnard.  It as during the time I was still young and I didn't know anything about the comrades them.

MR BERGER: So that wasn't the Rooikop that you saw today?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I would say so because this one is till young.

MR BERGER: You've told the Committee that, well you denied that there were any whites who were part of the attackers, and then you said that
"Even at our meeting after we returned, there were no whites."
Which meeting were you referring to?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: We never met that day, that happened when we were told that they are attacking us. During that day of the massacre I never attended any meeting because I went to my room.

MR BERGER: The words which I wrote down as coming from you were:  you were asked
"Were whites part of the attackers?"
You said:
"No."
And then you said:
"Even at our meeting after we returned."
I'm only asking you what meeting you are referring to.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I've already explained that when we came back from Boipatong I went straight to my room and then I cleaned my gun.  I don't know anything about the meeting that day.  If I said that, maybe I must have made a mistake.

MR BERGER: Which meetings did you attend before the massacre, in relation to the attack on Boipatong?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: There has never been a meeting that I attended where the massacre issue was discussed.  The only meeting that I attended - I heard that we were going to attack but they never specified where are we going to attack.  They never specified that we were going to attack Boipatong.  That's the only meeting that I attended.

MR BERGER: When was that meeting?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I think it can be a week or two weeks before the attack.

MR BERGER: So you never attended any meeting where an attack on Boipatong was discussed?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, I did not.

MR BERGER: Now does that mean that there were some meetings that you did not attend, and it might have been said at those meetings that there was going to be an attack on Boipatong, or does it mean that you attended all the meetings but that an attack on Boipatong was never discussed?  Do you understand the difference?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I will explain it this way.  I was attending the meetings only when I'm present at the hostel but when I'm in town I would not attend those meetings.  If any meeting was held while I was around the hostel, I would attend that meeting but in all the meetings that I've attended, I've never heard a discussion about the attack on Boipatong.

MR BERGER: On the Sunday before the massacre, were you at the hostel?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I don't remember whether I attended a meeting during that day, on Sunday.

MR BERGER: No, that wasn't the question, the question is, on that day were you at the hostel?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I can say I was at the hostel because I would not have gone to the town on Sunday, so I think I was around the hostel.

MR BERGER: And if there had been a meeting on that Sunday, you would have attended it?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And if Themba Khosa had spoken at that meeting, you would have heard him?