Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Well no I won't quite agree there.  It is people that were sort of compelled to give statements.  Witness statements.  Witness statements rather than informers.   All right we got a lot of the information from that but I would rather describe it as witness statements.

MR RICHARDS: Well they were compelled, as you said, to make statements.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Yes.

MR RICHARDS: And my colleague Mr Pego has explored the meaning of the word compelled.  However, we won't revisit that.   ... information clearly was leaking from the house to the police and this general atmosphere of hysteria about informers developed.  Would that be consistent with what your records show?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I didn't quite get your question.

MR RICHARDS: During the period 9 November of 1988 to the February of 1989 a number of people died.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Yes.

MR RICHARDS: Most of those people who died died as a result of having the tag informer put against their name.  And that is the evidence before the Commission.  Now I then took the theorem further and said we know that there was one informer in the person of Mr Richardson.  We also know from your evidence today that there were over 100 other statements on file relating to information about the household, not necessarily only Mrs Mandela as you said.  We don't need to know exactly what those statements said.  Wouldn't it be true to say that that situation resulted in hysteria in the house of Mrs Mandela where there was a general paranoia and witch hunt to try and find out who the informers were?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: May I describe a situation to you.  You heard testimony yesterday that attempts were made to recruit youngsters and individuals detained and that a  flow of threatening letters was then received from Priscilla Jana and Kathy Satchwell's office.  Anybody that was seen to supply information to the system of the time, whether it was freely or whether it was under detention or whatever, they were seen as collaborators.  And there was that hysteria.  They would never know who agreed to be recruited and who refused.  Who went to the attorneys and who was recruited in the end.  So I think there was that mistrust that did exist.  I will concede that there was mistrust and probably a form of hysteria around that.

MR RICHARDS: And it leads me to the last on this particular track.  If someone was labelled collaborator, impimpi, informer at that time what was the probable result for that individual in the community?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Most probably death.

MR RICHARDS: Thank you.  Now we go to the next part of the story, Brandfort.  You have had access to these tapes and the transcriptions, isn't that correct?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: That is correct, yes.

MR RICHARDS: Now if the evidence yesterday is correct those tapes and transcripts squarely put Mrs Mandela in Soweto over that weekend starting the 29th going through to the Monday.

MR SEMENYA: I think that passage is factually incorrect.  The transcript did not put her in Soweto over the weekend.  The transcript records her voice over that period.  The witness never got himself to come close to saying she definitely was calling from Soweto.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to rephrase your question?

MR RICHARDS: I don't accept Mr Samenya's criticism.  My question is factually correct.  I asked it very carefully to find out yesterday whether there was an ambiguity in the situation.  And due to the nature of the situation we can't go into lengthy cross-examination but I will rephrase the question.  Did you have sight of the transcripts and an opportunity to hear the tapes themselves over that period?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Mr Chairman, at times I had sight of transcripts.  I can in no way unfortunately assist the committee regarding this particular conversation that allegedly took place. I have got no recollection of having seen the transcript or knowing anything about it.

MR RICHARDS: However, from your evidence earlier today those tapes and transcripts are now with the Attorney-General. Correct?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: There are only 12 tapes with the Attorney-General and those tapes were related to the treason docket that I was busy compiling and some of the - there were three discussions between Mrs Mandela and persons alleged to be a certain Tebogo.  Now we know from after the death of the two MK soldiers at Mr Richardson's house one was Tebogo.  But he now being dead we can never prove that the person she had spoken to was an MK soldier.  So the tapes, the 12 tapes that is with the Attorney-General relates to the treason investigation.

MR RICHARDS: Those tapes that you have relating to the treason investigation were extracted from the general collection.  We must assume that the general collection of other tapes is also still available.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: If I heard Bosman correct yesterday I think he said they were destroyed some time between - prior to the '94 elections, if I can recall.

MR RICHARDS: Right.  Let's proceed to the day of Sergeant Pretorius' death.  The report from Richardson to the police, if I understood you correctly and I am quite happy to be corrected on this one, it was made to you by Richardson.  The first report.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No, I only spoke to Richardson after his arrest.

MR RICHARDS: And did you take a statement from him?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I am under the impression that I took a statement and that is why yesterday I wanted to have a look at the statement because I knew they had it,  to see whether it was my style of recording statements.  I was under the impression that I did take a statement from him but it seems I never did.  But I had an interview with him and he then explained to me what had happened and that is what I included in my presentation.

MR RICHARDS: Did you find him a co-operative informer or how did you find his demeanour and presentation?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: No, he was co-operative.  Very afraid of course of being exposed.  No, he co-operated well.

MR RICHARDS: And did he give you information about anything other than the two terrorists?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Yes, he told me about the arrival of the two.  I hear evidence here that it is alleged that Mrs Mandela brought him there.  Correctly Richardson related to me that Mrs Mandela had brought one and that another gentleman, I don't know whether I may mention his name, brought the other.

MR RICHARDS: Which other gentleman?

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: May I divulge.  He is a high profile in Soweto.  Mr Chairman do I need to ...

CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead.

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: Hot Stix Mabusa.  He said the one was brought there by Winnie and the other by Hot Stix Mabusa.  Now I read the in camera proceedings and it would appear from there as if Mr Mono had brought the one.  Now I don't know.  My recollection of my discussion with Richardson was that Hot Stix Mabusa had brought the other one.

MR RICHARDS: The question was more specific.  Other than that particular incident which resulted in the death of Sergeant Pretorius and the two soldiers did Mr Richardson give any other information to you when you...

JAN DANIEL POTGIETER: I can't recall right off and that is why I wanted to look at the statement and find the statement because having been in the Mandela household one would expect that I would have questioned him not only as regards to the two MK soldiers but in a wider context as well.  But I can't recall what answers he gave.

MR RICHARDS: It then flows on were you aware that at that time the two individuals known as Lolo Sono and Tjabalala had gone missing,  had been abducted?