Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

MR WESSELS: Mr Botha, you do know what the situation was, you already testified about what the situation was.  You heard that he had an argument with Luitingh and that his relationship was not very good, you also know that he committed two security breaches of a very serious nature and that there were a lot of problems, that he was placed on ice because of it.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, I did not say that, I said there were personalities that immediately after an argument, or whatever the circumstances were of the security breach would put this on ice and say: "No, let us continue, we've sorted this out, accept that you were wrong and let us continue, the organisation was not compromised to such an extent, let us continue with our relationship."  I cannot testify about it.

MR WESSELS: Mr Botha, elementary logic states that in the position in which you found yourself during that time, your first question would have been: "But how do you reconcile this very sensitive and dangerous instruction with the position of Mr Barnard in the organisation after the security breaches and his personality clashes?  How do you reconcile that?"  It had to come up with you.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I will explain it to you.  In the light of the instruction I used that logic that you just referred to and my logic was it had to be an authorised project in that Mr Barnard would go and execute it.

MR WESSELS: And the 2nd of May 1989, Mr Verster made certain enquiries, did it not create some concern with you in that you thought back when you believed Barnard: "I innocently thought that he received the instruction, but now indeed it seems that it is possible that he never received that instruction"?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: You've already asked me before and I said yes, there were a few aspects that bothered me.

MR WESSELS: What did you do to solve these concerns and doubts?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I kept quiet.

MR WESSELS: You kept quiet.  In the March or the beginning of March you are now beginning with your new career, you are very enthusiastic about it, you want to prove yourself, you want to do your bit which you believed was the right thing to do in the country, to fight the terrorists, and before you became really operational you receive an instruction that you know is illegal and that if it is exposed you will lose your job, is that not true Mr Botha?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, I accepted that it will not be exposed, I accepted that it will not be exposed.  I accepted that nobody will know about it, it will not be exposed.

MR WESSELS: Well what made you make that inference?  I'm not talking about the murder now, the fact that the organisation will find out about it, the fact that you were involved?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It can only be confirmed by myself or Mr Barnard.  I was prepared not to say anything and I assumed he did that as well.

MR WESSELS: So you were prepared to take that risk at that stage to assist Mr Barnard, against the rules of the organisation?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I was prepared to take the risk because I was brainwashed during a course which your client held or held a lecture, it was concerning the sovereignty of this country, South Africa, as well as the ideology that we followed in prevention of internal terrorists and acts of terrorism.

MR WESSELS: Mr Botha, you were not brainwashed to such an extent that you could not use your own head in terms of following the rules of the organisation, it was the opposite, is that not true?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: We were brainwashed to execute what we were appointed for.

MR WESSELS: You are then willing to place your career in jeopardy, to go against the rules of the organisation, act with Mr Barnard and you are furthermore willing to place your life in danger, and at that stage we still had the death sentence and if you were caught then you could have received the death sentence, is that true?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct, but then you also have to see it in the same context, in that I believed that I will get indemnity, notwithstanding the fact that my exposure with Mr Barnard would come to light.  I was convinced that Mr Verster will also then in that type of situation act on my behalf.

MR WESSELS: So you believed with certainty that everything would be alright?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Very well.  This is now the beginning of May, you now realise that things are not right, they're not going the way you want them to, you were under the wrong impression, which way doesn't matter, what did you do to solve this very serious situation?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Once again I kept quiet, I accepted that nothing said - like we did not even refer to him as Webster, we referred to him as the "W incident".

MR WESSELS: You did not even talk to Mr Barnard?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, we did by nature of the situation and I told him this is what's happening and he could not believe.  I said: "Joe's denying it and he's doing enquiries" and he said: "I cannot believe it."  I will not use the words used, but he said he could not believe it that that's how he reacted, and it just proved that by the nature of the situation it created some reserve towards Verster.

MR WESSELS: Whether you did believe Mr Barnard or not, or if you believed that there was not such an instruction, or you realised that Mr Joe Verster was the largest or the biggest fraud in the CCB, is that not true?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Both situations that you just sketched to me held water.

MR WESSELS: And if the latter was applicable, then you had to get out of this organisation as soon as possible, because there will be a lot of problems for you because it was clear that Joe Verster was busy framing members of his own organisation in terms of instructions that he gave.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Well I will not say that he framed him.  Mr Barnard was not found at the scene, Mr Barnard would deny that he was involved in it.  How could he frame him?

MR WESSELS: Well this was supposed to be the beginning of a phase that could in the future become a frame, in that Verster was trying to cover his tracks now, in the guilt will be placed on somebody else and not on himself.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: If you made the necessary precautions on Mr Barnard's side, he would deny it up till today.  He would never have been found guilty of this murder.

MR WESSELS: Yes, but you had to have serious doubts concerning the integrity of your Commander.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes and no.  Yes, because he denied it and no, because he initiated a project which he did reasonably well.

MR WESSELS: It is about exposure Mr Botha.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I hear what you're saying.

MR WESSELS: You not want to be exposed, you did not want to get into trouble, you did not want to go to jail or get the death sentence.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: But with the risk that you ran by remaining with this organisation under this Commander and another member, you were busy placing yourself in a great risk.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I can hear what you say, but I did not interpret it in that way, once again I followed the objectives of this organisation.

MR WESSELS: But what do you do now, you receive the instruction, shortly afterwards you have to go and monitor Bruce White.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And you do not know why you have to monitor him, maybe he has to be killed or eliminated, is that not true?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, that was a possibility.

MR WESSELS: And what do you do, you go, you get your good friend Barnard, going against the rules of the organisation, to assist you.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Once again it wouldn't have come to light.