Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-17

MS COLLETT: Could you tell us what the situation was when Commissioner Nqoya's wife and child were brought to the Commission?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: Mr Chairman, when the wife and child was brought, they were also mocked.  It was actually, I can't remember exactly what was said, but I thought immediately that if that was my child and wife, if we get out of here, action will definitely have to be taken.  They were also ill-treated, if I say ill-treated, not manhandled, but insulted.

MS COLLETT: If there was a political motivation for all these things, could you comment on the necessity to belittle, insult and have such disregard for the superiors?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: Mr Chairman, I can't see what the wife and child of Gen Nqoya could have done there in that situation.  As I said, that was also an indication that they wanted the Commissioner there to hear about the pensions and their moneys.

MS COLLETT: Is it correct that there was an announcement or that information was given that Brigadier Gqozo had stepped down early in the evening already?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: There was, the only announcement Mr Chairman that I heard as I said was when Mr Goosen arrived.  I think it was roundabout nine o'clock, I am not sure, between eight and ten o'clock, but I think it was about nine o'clock.  Him and two other gentlemen arrived and he informed the meeting that Brigadier Gqozo had resigned.

MS COLLETT: Is it correct that even after that, superior Officers were being brought to the Police College and these proceedings against the Officers and people being kept against their will, continued?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: That is correct Mr Chairman.  I can perhaps just further the answer here as well by saying that even after the announcement was made that Brigadier Gqozo had resigned, there was no joy, there was nothing, they just carried on looking for Officers involving their money and the pensions.

MS COLLETT: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLLETT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Collett.  Are there any questions from the panel?

ADV BOSMAN: No thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Nompozolo?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.  Subsequent to the announcement that Brigadier Gqozo has resigned, did the slogans continue?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: The slogans continued right through the night.

MR NOMPOZOLO: When it is said "down with Gqozo, down with Makwethu", does it mean that Makwethu should resign or does it mean that Makwethu has fallen in disfavour?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: Mr Chairman, I took it at that stage that Captain Makwethu and even Commissioner Nqoya, they had fallen in disfavour as a result of the moneys that they allegedly took.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And would you say the same about Brigadier Gqozo, that he had fallen in disfavour, that is why they were saying down with him?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: I took it as disfavour, Mr Chairman.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, you were asked whether you can't link the fact that people armed, Police armed themselves and the chanting of the slogans.  Was it announced, the purpose of arming the Police?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: Mr Chairman, as I said earlier on, at some stage, I think it is just before the got the keys from Colonel Vuso, when they went over to the armoury to go and get the arms, the reason for arming themselves was that they said that the South African Police Service's Riot Unit was mobilising in King and that they were going to try and free the hostages and that the Ciskei, the then Ciskei Policemen at the hall were arming themselves and that they would defend themselves.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo.  Mr Sims, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Nompozolo?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman, I am calling now Mr Adoni.

CHAIRPERSON: Will Mr Adoni come forward and just remain standing and just switch on the microphone, the red button.  Can
you give your full name for the record please?

THEMBILE MISHACK ADONI: Thembile Mishack Adoni.

THEMBILE MISHACK ADONI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may be seated.  Mr Nompozolo?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Adoni, during the month of March 1994, it is common cause that you were a Ciskeian Policeman?

THEMBILE MISHACK ADONI: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And on the 22nd of March 1994, what rank were you holding?

THEMBILE MISHACK ADONI: I was a Major.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Which Unit were you attached to?

THEMBILE MISHACK ADONI: Efficiency Services.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Were you at work on the 22nd of March 1994?

THEMBILE MISHACK ADONI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And you were at work the whole day?

THEMBILE MISHACK ADONI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, you subsequently went home after work?

THEMBILE MISHACK ADONI: Yes, that is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: At that stage, when you knocked off at work, did you know that there was a meeting at Bisho Police College?

THEMBILE MISHACK ADONI: No, I did not know.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So you went home and you slept with your family, is that correct?

THEMBILE MISHACK ADONI: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: What happened during the early hours of the morning?

THEMBILE MISHACK ADONI: I want to start from seven o'clock on the 22nd of March.   In the news bulletin at half past seven, it was announced that some senior Officers were at the College, Police College who were taken by the junior Police Officers.  Even on TV, we could see the Officers at the College.  Again in the news bulletin at nine o'clock, it was announced that Gqozo had resigned.  I went to bed.  At about two o'clock in the morning, on the 23rd, I was awoken up by the knocks at all my windows and even the doors, people were knocking.  They were shouting from outside, telling me to open the door.  This went on to such an extent that one of the back windows was broken.  I refused because at that time, my wife and my children were awoken up.  I refused to open and my wife forced me to open.  When I peeped through the window, I saw the Police cars.  My wife ended up opening the door.  When these people came in, this person that I saw was Tondile, I saw the other one, that was Mshimpela.  There was another one who was also coming in, I saw him later, that was Sergeant Vileam.   He is the one who uttered some words asking me the reason why I did not open the door.  I told him that he is not supposed to ask me that kind of a question in my own house.  He said we are here to fetch you.  I told them that I am not going anywhere and I enquired where to.  He told me that I cannot say anything like that after embezzling funds.  We argued until Tondile interfered.  I went to dress up.  I went out and they wanted a key to the car.  Another thing is this, my house has got a kraal, there are two gates.  They are locked, both of them.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Sorry Mr Chairman.  I think there is something which has been incorrectly interpreted.  It can mean the kraal yes, the Interpreter is right, but in this context it is meant the wall, the fence, the fencing by use of (indistinct), not necessarily that the interpretation was wrong, but contextually.

CHAIRPERSON: It is a fence with two gates?

THEMBILE MISHACK ADONI: Yes.

THEMBILE MISHACK ADONI: It is a wall with two gates.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay.

INTERPRETER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.