Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-11-03

FUNDISELE GULENI: That was Lusindiso Poyo and Teso.  We left with Mr Kanandyana to look at this matter.  On our way, after driving passed Mampube, they pointed out to us these people.  They tried to stop the car, or rather hitch-hiking and we stopped and we enquired as to where they were going, and they told us that they were going to Umtata, and they asked for a lift.   I told them that we can give them a lift, but we were to get to a certain place, in order to get a spare wheel and after that, we would proceed to Umtata.  They did so, we drove and when we were at a place called Mfhadla, we took a right turn, going to this other place where the rally was going to be held.  When we arrived there, at Majola, at the rally, we stopped next to the play grounds, and there were people already there.  I started looking for Mzwandile, I called him aside with the other members, a few members, SDU members who were there nearby and a few marshals who were there, and I told them about this story that we got these people whom were suspected, but we did not ask them any questions, but Mzwandile told us to question them.  We took them to Mr Mqiza's house, whose house was next to the place of the rally.   We first searched them and we realised that they were unarmed.   When we questioned them about their aim, where they were coming from and where they were going, but they failed to answer that question.  They kept on contradicting themselves or they would rather keep quiet at some stage.   Mzwandile decided that we should take them to another place where there were no people, and we took them in our car, in a car with Mzwandile and Zalisele Matushane.

MR MGIDLANA: Was this car the same car you used when you first gave them the lift?

FUNDISELE GULENI: The car that we came with, we left it with Mr Kanandyana, we took this 4x4 belonging to Mzwandile.

MR MGIDLANA: And how many were you, can you recall?

FUNDISELE GULENI: I cannot remember the number, but I think we were about seven, it was myself, Mzwandile, Teso and Lusindiso Poyo, Zalisele Matushane and this other comrade from Bantu, but I cannot remember his name, he had passed away, he was also an SDU member.

MR MGIDLANA: You were saying that he is now deceased?

FUNDISELE GULENI: Yes.

MR MGIDLANA: All right, proceed.

FUNDISELE GULENI: We stopped on the way towards Buje, but it was not very far from the rally.  We just stopped the car on the way, we questioned them as to where they were coming from and who they were and where they were going.  They said they were APLA soldiers, they were coming from Msigaba, they were going to Umtata.   We asked them to explain to us as to what was happening at Msigaba.  They were not free when responding to these questions.  When one of them was about to answer, one of them would try and stop them and answer.  That is when Mzwandile told us to divide them and the others would be asked on the other side, and the other group would be asked on the other side.  We did so, I was left with one group and Mzwandile continued questioning this group.    Among us, there were people like myself, I had a 9mm pistol.  There was Mqiza with an R4 rifle, there was Mzwandile with a G3, Poyo was armed with a pumpgun.   He questioned them and the others were watching and I was questioning this other group, that is when we realised that these people were in the camps at Msigaba in a process of integration.   They said there was a misunderstanding there amongst them, because they were satisfied with this integration process, because there were people who wanted to continue in the battle.  They were not satisfied about this integration, therefore they decided to take their own way.  We asked them about the people who were responsible in this TDF, because they said in this process the TDF soldiers were in charge, because those were the camps of the TDF's,  as we were still listening to this and questioning these people, we heard a gunshot.  When we looked, we realised that the person who was shooting here was Mqiza.  Mqiza was shooting directly at this group, the one that I was questioning, and I enquired.  Mqiza said that he thought that Mzwandile was giving an order, because Mzwandile was standing behind me and the slope was a little bit steep.   Mzwandile said that he did not give the order, therefore we were in trouble.  These people who were trying to escape, run away, we called them back and we tried to solve this problem.  I advised that we would rather take these people to the nearest clinic or hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you carry on, when that accidental shooting took place, did anybody die?

FUNDISELE GULENI: No, no one died at the time, but it was clear that one of them was severely injured.   We came to an agreement that we would take these people to the nearest hospital, but during that process, before leaving that scene, Mzwandile said "if we do this, we would be putting ourselves in trouble."  It was not possible for us to take these people to the hospital and escape prosecution.   I said that was a minor issue because it was clear that we did not intend to hit these people,  and Mzwandile insisted that these people would later become dangerous to us.   Mzwandile said, suggested, that we take these people because we were on our way, and on the way, on the road, he suggested that we take these people away from the rally and go to a safe place.  The aim was to kill all these people, that is what he was suggesting.  That became more difficult because we couldn't come to an agreement about that.   Mzwandile said that we were already in trouble, and we had no other alternative, no one was going to do as he liked.    We got into the car, we drove passed Malanganyana, we drove passed the rally.  He was just driving slowly.  He further suggested that there was a place next to Sinangwana, towards the Slimela Hospital.

MR MGIDLANA: Before you proceed, you talked about Malanganyana, are you referring to a place or are you trying to indicate the time?

FUNDISELE GULENI: It was in the afternoon,  I beg your pardon, the Malanganyana refers to the time, in the afternoon, late in the afternoon.   We drove towards the place called Nangwana, where he turned left and we stopped the car.  We couldn't solve our problem, still there and we didn't know what to do, we didn't know whether to take these people to the hospital or not.   Mzwandile told us that we had two cases now, we were going to be assaulted and be prosecuted.  He said we should finish those people off so that we can get out of that trouble, but now the trouble was who was going to do that and we had to be there with those people and divide them as we had divided them initially.  Two of them were injured and they were in the car.   It transpired that if we finished them off, the sound from the shooting would alert the people in the area, they decided that these people should be stabbed.  Knives be used, but it also became impossible and a decision was taken to take them into the van and leave those who were injured and the others, were taken in a van to a place just away from Cwele junction towards Umtata.  It was already dark at the time, and there was some drizzle.   We got to a bushy area there.  Mzwandile suggested that these people be finished off there.   He said the person who had started, Mqiza that is, should finish off the job and Mqiza did that.   Now after, another question came, what was going to be done with these people after they were dead, and Mzwandile suggested that we go to Bantu so that we could get the tools to dig up for these people.  He was residing at Mrs Toyga's place and he took these tools and we went to this place and dug up in the sand for these people, that is what happened on that particular day, that is the role that I played on that particular day.

MR MGIDLANA: Sorry, how many were these guys?