Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

WITNESS: Yes.  I want to tell you something.  The demolishing of people's houses, the disguise of the police by AZAPO clothes, the torture of people in Maqina's house, I went there myself to try and negotiate with Maqina so that he could release these children.  When I got there I was told that they were not kept in that house.  Maqina told me that he had kept them in Kleinskool.  I tried to go and look for these children.  People in the township knew that these four kids have been kidnapped by Maqina.  All the details are here in this document in front of me.
What I am trying to say to you now is, if you are through with the torturing that I have been talking about now, which is just the same as other Comrades, I would like to have some recommendations from the Commission.  Recommendations about how the Commission can help to ensure that its aims can be carried out.  To unite the country, for the country to reconcile.  I have recommendations on how the Commission can do that if I am through with these details about my torture.   
The details that I spoke about regarding my torture are the same as other Comrades even though I was a little luckier than my other Comrades.  Presently I am paying R800,00 for the treatment of my body because I stayed in St Albans.  That really affected my back and I am still trying to treat it now.  I still consider that as luck because there are some Comrades who cannot even buy a disprin.  We know that these people are also humans.  They were people who had some assets, but today they cannot even buy themselves a single disprin.  I would really appreciate it if the Truth and Reconciliation Commission can emphasise on those people, but I can see that it is doing that already up to now.  It has really touched me a lot to see there have been people who had the opportunity to come whether I liked those people or not.  Whether I was on good terms with them or not, I liked the fact that they were given the chance to come and say their piece in front of the Commission.  I would like now the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to please use its powers to investigate.  It must please...  This is very painful for us especially us, the Comrades, who went through all this.  I know I am not now a politician, but I am now looking at things as a businessman and not as a politician.  I have done my role in politics in the struggle, but now I am an economist.  
But now it is still very painful for me to see all the people who tried to make the change that has been happening in our country to be just forgotten.  One man used to say to me that your bread can be buttered on both sides... [Information lost due to recording]. That is why you heard that I said I would support the Truth Commission insofar as to making this country work because...
Mr

N SANDI: Perhaps, Mr Jack, I would like you to know something.  Perhaps you already know this.  The Truth and Reconciliation Commission does have its own committee.  It is called the Reparation and Rehabilitation Committee whose very difficult task is to try and give reparation to those victims.  Do you have any recommendations on how that Committee can work so that some of those people who are here can also have their contributions to the victims you are talking about?

WITNESS: Like I have said before, something that is very painful right now is that when you look at my statement here, this is going to be the backbone of what I am going to talk about.  Many people here can never believe that I will obey an order of the court, but because of the change in South Africa I want the country to work.  If we are going to do that we are going to put ourselves in trouble.  Like I said before, just recently... 
I am going to say this to the Commission, I want one of the families, the Hashe family...  When Hashe started with the struggle he went to Robben Island and came back again.  He had his own assets.  He had cars, house, etcetera.  I am challenging anyone to go to Hashe's house.  It is absolutely empty.  The Truth Commission, if I have a truth to say, and that truth is this, that hurts me and I am prepared to go to every length if that is not,  [Xhosa not translated] if it comes to that, I think I am taking what you are saying and I hope you will do it.  I trust you will do it and I know you are going to do it.  Thank you.
Mr

N SANDI: Thank you very much, Mr Jack.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Are their any questions from the panel?  Mkhuseli, it is not allowed of us to applaud the witness, but I do not think the rules of the Truth Commission makes us to be insensitive to the truth when we hear it.  We have broken our own rules and we have applauded you.  You have spoken to us as a leader, as a patriot, as a Statesman, and we are proud that in the country of our birth we have men like yourself.  You have set a tone for today.  This day is going to be very difficult for us.  
We have just been told now that in Cape Town a court is sitting, the lawyers representing Jan du Preez and Nick van Rensberg have filed an application that Mrs Mtimkulu must not climb that podium.  We are waiting for that judgement to come any time this morning and we have been ordered to wait until that judgement comes.  That shows the difficulty we are facing as this Commission.  We are lucky to have people like yourselves who are so able to tell the truth and at the same time to be sensitive to the problems we are facing as this Commission.  We salute you.

WITNESS: Can I just say something about the...  You see, coming back to the point I made earlier on about the fact that we have been beaten up and had all those bruises we had a choice.  We were asked whether we wanted to be informers so that we can have something to eat.  Something that they were talking about is that... [Xhosa not translated].  We are not supposed to change this Justice Department that we have created now.  That wealth is being enjoyed by those people who were against this change.