Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-29

MR RICHARD: Page 13.  There is starts, and for the benefit of the record I read
"... the TRC has asked for detailed information on 'the scope and scale of legitimate MK operations as well as attacks not in accordance with ANC policy which had become a trend in the late 1980's.  In a separate question the TRC asked to what extent do the MK Commanders in the front line States take responsibility for actions, especially those involved in civilian targets of cadres inside the country.'"
	Now, it is correct that you were a Commander in the front line States?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR RICHARD: In your evidence yesterday, you answered a question, your counsel put it to you "do you take responsibility for Mr McBride's activities" and your answer was yes.   So that means that even though there might have been mistakes, you still take responsibility?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I do, and I would like to elaborate Mr Chairperson.   The responsibility of command is such that you cannot simply take responsibility for some things, or the good things, and if something went wrong you then say "oh well, this has nothing to do with me".  Command means you take responsibility for all of the actions, of those people, because if you are responsible for arming those people whatever they do, they do because of what was intended by you.  Whether it turns out that way or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't you qualify that at least if somebody blatantly refuse to obey an order and acted contrary to an order, would you take responsibility for that?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: No Mr Chairperson.  I am talking in the context of furthering the political aims and objectives of the organisation, of the ANC.  We are not here talking about actions, if someone went and stole something, we do not take responsibility for that and the ANC is on record as having said that.    But I also want to state that the ANC at all times take responsibility for what it sees as legitimate actions or actions carried out by those cadres in the furtherance of the struggle, unlike many in the apartheid regime who when the chips were on the table, turned tail and refused to even acknowledge that they were part of the system.  We do take responsibility, the ANC leadership takes responsibility.

MR RICHARD: Now, on the next page ...

ADV PRIOR: Chairman, with respect, Mr McBride had something to say to his Attorney about me, I don't know - he pointed his finger in my direction, I don't know if I am supposed to react to that?  I don't intend to ...

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a problem at all?  Sorry Mr Richard, you may continue.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair.    Then over the next page and
a half, various answers are given until at the fifth paragraph of 
the next page I would guess under the section "Armed Actions 
and Civilian Casualties", there is a reference to the Magoos bar 
attack and in the second paragraph of that section, there is a 
paragraph which says -
		"... as indicated in our First Submission, a number of 
attacks did take place carried out by MK which were
not in line with ANC policy."
	Do you see the two quotes that I have referred to?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: No, could you indicate how that paragraph starts please?

MR RICHARD: The first paragraph that I am referring to, is the second paragraph in the section entitled and headed "Armed Actions and Civilian Casualties".

CHAIRPERSON: It starts with the word "as indicated in our First Submission ...", is that the one?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: I've got that, yes.

MR RICHARD: The next paragraph that I am referring you to is a paragraph, three paragraphs down which starts "gathering tactical Intelligence".   Do you have the two paragraphs that I intend to refer to?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now, in the first paragraph I have referred to, a statement is made that a number of attacks did take place carried by MK, which were not in line with ANC policy.    Do you know which attacks this submission is referring to?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Unfortunately not, but it does seek to explain circumstances around these.

MR RICHARD: I have established that you have a far better working knowledge of this document and the background to it, than I might ever get by studying it.  Would there be any manner whereby I might establish which attacks are being referred to?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson, when it came to the question of the Second Submission, I was not as involved in the drafting of any of these and I would suggest that perhaps Mr Richard should request the ANC to then get the people who drafted those sections, to come and answer that, if he so wishes.  But generally there were questions asked and the ANC certainly sought to explain that there were problems and then what it did about it, or what was the explanation behind these.  It did not refer to specific operations, but it then says "look, this is the kind of thing that did happen."  There is elsewhere and later on, it explained some of these.  Perhaps it refers to what follows in subsequent paragraphs, it talks about Silverton, it talks about the Amanzimtoti bomb.

MR RICHARD: Now, my question was quite simple and straight forward and I believe you have answered it.  I said are you able to refer me to which attack are being referred to, which were not in line with ANC policy and you have answered that you cannot.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Mr Chairperson, I think we are playing word games here.  I have just indicated that these, some of these illustrations here are by way of example.  If you expected me to now produce the entire list of all those operations, I cannot.

MR RICHARD: Now who within the Drafting Committee within the ANC, who prepared this document, would be able to give us that information?

JUDGE PILLAY: You are talking about the long list?

MR RICHARD: Lists of attacks which were carried out by the ANC, which were not within ANC policy, where would I get that information?

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Well, perhaps you can get Mr Gill Mtchitenzi or Jeanette Annandale.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, with respect, there appears to be no relevance to my learned friend's last question.

CHAIRPERSON: He is wondering whether Mr Ismail knows who might have a list or not.

MR RICHARD: The relevance comes out of the next quote, which is in the second paragraph I referred to where it is said
"... the Magoos bar attack falls into this category as indicated in our First Submission to the TRC."

MR BERGER: No Chairperson, with respect, my learned friend must read the whole paragraph and see what category is being referred to.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

MR BERGER: It is not at all the category that my learned friend thinks is being referred to, let him just read the paragraph.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Just to quote it talks of the gathering of tactical Intelligence.  You cannot take things out of context.

MR BERGER: In fact it specifically says
"... at times attacks which appeared to be aimed at civilian targets, were nothing of the sort."
	That is the category that is being referred to.

ABOOBAKER ISMAIL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard, the way you phrased your question and - it might have led to a misinterpretation, was because you were dealing with the first paragraph you referred to namely attacks which were not in line with ANC policy and now your next question was, your next statement was that Magoos falls into that category, but in fact, it would be fairer if you had to read out the whole paragraph, because I don't think it just goes straight from that one sentence in the second paragraph of the section, to the last sentence of paragraph 5, just linking them straight up without any qualification at all.