Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

CHAIRPERSON: The first applicant by the way we do it for the 
purpose of, who is the first applicant, Mr De Kock?

MR HUGO: Mr De Kock, Mr Chairman.  That afternoon of the 
12th of December, did you arrive there in Pretoria?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I arrived there that evening.

MR HUGO: Where did you stay that night?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I stayed in a safe premises in Midrand between 
Johannesburg and Pretoria.

MR HUGO: What arrangements were made for your transport from 
the airport to this safe premises?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: A person, a certain Sergeant, I can't remember 
his surname, he lived on these premises, he was a guard there and he 
fetched me from the airport that evening.  And from there we went 
to the safe premises.

MR HUGO: And I assume that he took you to Nongwe Park the 
next morning?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Having arrived there, did you go directly to Van 
Rensburg's house?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR HUGO: How long did this discussion between you and Van 
Rensburg last before De Kock arrived on the scene?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Oh, it was not long.  If I could take a guess 
about four to five minutes.  If I can take a guess, I can't remember 
exactly.

MR HUGO: During this time, did you have enough time to discuss 
the main points of the motivation as discussed by Van Rensburg, to 
discuss all these things?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR HUGO: During this time before Mr De Kock arrived on the 
scene, did you touch on this aspect of fraud?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It could have been possible, as I have already 
said, I can't remember in which context whether it was before Mr De 
Kock had come there or while he was there, I can't remember 
specifically when that was mentioned.

MR HUGO: But you did mention this fraud aspect to Van 
Rensburg?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And I believe that Gilbert would have mentioned it to 
him as well?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I think so.

MR HUGO: And then according to your version, Mr De Kock came 
there four or five minutes later.  Did you repeat the motivation 
which you have mentioned to Van Rensburg earlier?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And to the best of your recollection Mr De Kock was 
also explained this matter of the fraud?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: According to what I can remember, I told him 
that the fraud had complicated this matter even further.

MR HUGO: The aspect or the fact that the Goniwe matter was also 
related to this, was that also explained to De Kock?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: The Goniwe matter was mentioned pertinently 
and the three people who were involved in that, I mentioned those 
people.

MR HUGO: I put it to you that Mr De Kock is going to say that 
when this discussion took place at Van  Rensburg's home, only the 
fraud aspect was mentioned.  Do you want to react to that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, it was not like that.  Mr De Kock is 
perhaps making a mistake.

MR HUGO: Mr De Kock is further going to state that the Goniwe 
matter was for the first time brought under his attention when he 
returned to Van Rensburg and told him that he had a problem to 
receive instructions to kill other colleagues only on the basis of 
fraud?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, it could not have been like that.  What I 
can distinctly remember is that General Van Rensburg was in a great 
hurry because he had to attend a meeting, or give a lecture at a 
meeting and this is why I draw the inference that Gilbert said I had 
to meet Van Rensburg at his house.
	That was the only reason I could think of and in any case, I 
did not have transport so I can't understand that Mr De Kock could 
say that.

ADV DE JAGER: Could it not have been that he could have gone 
back to Van Rensburg the next day?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That could have been, yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Or even later that afternoon?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That could be possible.

MR HUGO: Are you sure that during this discussion where Mr De 
Kock was present, that four people were mentioned who had to be 
eliminated?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I am dead sure of that.

MR HUGO: I am putting it to you that Mr De Kock is going to say 
that during this discussion only two people of the Security Branch 
was mentioned to him.  Two people who had to be eliminated and 
then also a third person, and as Mr De Kock says in his submission a 
previous ANC member who was working for them.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.  I mentioned four people.

MR HUGO: Did you during this discussion at Van Rensburg's 
house, mention the fact that cheques meant for trade union 
organisations were intercepted and these cheques were changed and 
then the people who had to be eliminated, used it for their own gain?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I have no knowledge of this fraud aspect.  All I 
know is that when I had left, Brigadier Gilbert told me that some of 
the members were also involved in fraud.  He did not provide any 
detail at all.  I did not have any knowledge of that.  They were not 
working with me and I don't think it was necessary for Gilbert to 
mention it to me.

MR HUGO: I am putting it to you that Mr De Kock is going to say 
that he obtained this information from you and that was the reason 
provided to him, why these people should be eliminated?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I deny that.

MR HUGO: Mr De Kock is also going to say that you said that 
pressure was exerted on you to accuse these members and that the 
result would be that these people should they be accused of this 
fraud, that these offences would be made public to the police?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I deny this.  I don't believe that Brigadier 
Gilbert would have been able to protect them not to be charged for 
fraud.

MR HUGO: I just want to ask you one more question.  Can you 
remember whether Van Rensburg during this discussion you had with 
him, at one or other stage, left the room to go and make some 
coffee?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It could have been like that.  He might have 
left the room, he was in a great hurry, so I can't remember whether 
that had happened.

MR HUGO: Mr Nieuwoudt, I am putting it to you that Mr De Kock 
will say that he can't remember that Mr Van Rensburg, and he is sure 
about it, that Mr Van Rensburg did not leave the room at any 
specific time.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I am not dead sure, but it could be that he did 
leave the room at a certain stage, because he was in a great hurry.

MR HUGO: How long did this discussion between you, Van 
Rensburg and De Kock last?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: If I have to make an estimate, I did not watch 
my watch, I think about 20 minutes, 20 minutes to half an hour?

MR HUGO: So according to you, this discussion was completed 
round about half past six that morning?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And according to you, you accompanied Mr De Kock 
directly from there to the technical division.  At what stage did the 
members, let me rather rephrase, at what time did the members there 
start working?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Their working hours started quarter past 
seven, half past seven, that was normal practice.

MR HUGO: The offices, were they opened when you arrived there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, when we arrived there I met Mr Du Toit 
for the first time.

MR HUGO: But my question is office hours start at quarter past 
seven, half past seven, your discussion lasted half an hour and you 
said you left immediately for the technical division.  I want to know 
where these offices already open and were they open, why so early?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: They were there.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know how far this technical division is 
from Van Rensburg's house?