Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-05

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the witness?

ADV MOTATA: I've written some down Mr Chairman, could you give me time just to go through my notes again?

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps let me ask Advocate Bosman then while you do that if she has any questions to ask the witness?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.
	Do you know a document called "The Fifteen Points of Understanding"?  Is that correct?

MR MBANDAZAYO: The Fifteen Points of Attention.

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I do.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

ADV BOSMAN: Sorry.   What is that document?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: The document is rules and principles that covers us as members of the PAC, it guides us as cadres.

ADV BOSMAN: As a member of this repossessing unit, did you receive firearms, were you armed, were you given  arms?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: These are the weapons that we had repossessed from the settlers.

ADV BOSMAN: In how many operations prior to these two operations were you involved on behalf of APLA?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: It's only these operations for which I've applied for amnesty, that is the Parktown North as well as the Parkview operation.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

ADV BOSMAN: Sorry.  What did you do as an APLA soldier at the time prior to these operations if you were not involved in any?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I would meet with the commanders, discuss certain issues and we would meet up till the time that he told me about this operation that we should undertake.

ADV BOSMAN: Were there absolutely no activities apart from you meeting with the commander?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: We would phone each other, meet, phone each other and meet.

ADV BOSMAN: I don't know whether you really understand my question, you were an APLA member since 1976, is that correct?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: What did you do from 1976 until 1994 at the time of these incidents as an APLA soldier and an APLA cadre?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I was involved in an operation during 1979, I got arrested and I was involved in another one and I was arrested and got out in 1983.  Then in 1994 I got involved in another operation for which I got arrested.  This is the operation for which I'm asking amnesty.

ADV BOSMAN: Why did you not apply for the other operations?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: It's because I had served a sentence with regard to these operations.

ADV BOSMAN: And then just a final question, when you went out on this first operation, you went with people who appear not to have been APLA members and yet you were the only one not to be armed, I find that a bit difficult to understand.  Can you shed some light on that?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: When we went there we did not have arms.  We had gone there to repossess arms.

CHAIRPERSON: If you take a look at what you say in your affidavit, Mr Nkabinde.  You say here on paragraph 5 of your affidavit Exhibit A
"We were five operatives for this operation, it was myself, not armed, Monde the commander armed with a .357, Kopane armed with a .38 special, Michael Mofokeng not armed and Thabang Tjitja, also not armed."
Now the question is, you say of the people that you know of those five there was only you and Monde to be APLA cadres, the question is why were you not armed bearing in mind that you were a training APLA soldier?  That's the question.

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: We did not have guns, we were in the process of repossessing guns.  We only had two guns.  Kopane himself, as I had already point out, that I did not know him, he was known to Monde and we had gone to repossess arms because our unit did not have arms.  We were not given any arms by the organisations and there was no way we could get guns except by repossessing them from the settlers.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson, that will be all from me.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Advocate Bosman.  Advocate Motata?

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson.
	We accept - let's accept that you were introduced to Gadebe, the commander.  Did you tell him you were trained as an APLA cadre, militarily in other words?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Who are you referring to?

ADV MOTATA: Monde the commander, who was the commander, Monde wasn't it?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes Monde knew because when I met him there was also another cadre from Tanzania who related to him about me, that's how we got to know each other.

ADV MOTATA: Were you told whether he was also trained militarily?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: No he did not tell me about his training but I knew that he was a cadre.

ADV MOTATA: Were you told by the cadre who introduced you that Monde was also trained?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I was told by this cadre who introduced me to Monde.  He introduced us to each other as Africans.  This African told me that Monde is a cadre, he introduced us to each other as such.

ADV MOTATA: May we just correct the interpretation, "moafrika" means a member of the Pan Africanist congress, not an African.  Now when you were trained militarily in Tanzania, what did you do?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry what - do you mean when you were trained, what did he do when he was being trained?

ADV MOTATA: In what training, what training he received.

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: The use of guns and they used to give us some political lectures in Tanzania.

ADV MOTATA: What did those political lectures entail, precisely what?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: That the settlers came during the year 1652 to rob us of our land and they came to divide us in Africa.

ADV MOTATA: Not the policy of the PAC?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: And that we should fight for our land and repossess it from the settlers.

ADV MOTATA: About the leadership of PAC, were you told in the political training?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: The commissar used to conduct political lectures or political classes.

ADV MOTATA: No, no, what I want to know from you, were you told who the structure, the leadership of PAC was?  That is between 1976 and 1978?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: My leader was Robert Sobukwe, that's what I was told.

ADV MOTATA: Only?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: They told us about our commander Zulu and Sam Pam.

ADV MOTATA: Okay let's return to - you say when you returned, you were arrested during the riots.  What did you do during the riots?  Precisely for what were you arrested?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: We attacked a Johnson delivery van.

ADV MOTATA: And in 1983 you said "we were arrested for armed repossession and sentenced for 14 years".  Where were you repossessing these arms?

CHAIRPERSON: Armed repossession as such I suppose armed robbery.

ADV MOTATA: Where was this armed repossession done, where?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: 1983?

ADV MOTATA: '83.

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: During 1983 in Springs.

ADV MOTATA: The joining of the PAC underground structures in 1976, do you have an idea which month or during which months were you recruited by the underground structures?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Could you repeat your question please?

ADV MOTATA: When you joined PAC under structures in 1976, which month was it?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: If I'm not mistaken, I think it was during July, the month of July.

ADV MOTATA: And when did you leave the country, in 1976?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I think it was during August.

ADV MOTATA: These taxis, this taxi you used to go to repossess firstly at Parktown, you say "as we were moving around", my first question would be, that would be paragraph 6 of the affidavit, my question is was it a private taxi?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes it was a private taxi.  Maxi taxi.

ADV MOTATA: Was there anybody showing it where to go?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes, the commander was directing.

ADV MOTATA: Why was it, because you were there, maxi taxi, you were all together, why was it moving around and not going to the place where you were to repossess?