Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

MR MAZIBUKO: I'd repeat this answer for a second time.  I was not interested in attending meetings because I was already concentrating on the welfare of my family because at any time I would get a message that my family has been attacked.

MS TANZER: So who would you voice your complaints to about the insecurity of yourself and your family?

MR MAZIBUKO: There were people who came from where I came from, then they would be able to give me the state of affairs of my family or the state of security of my family, then they would tell me that they are still safe.

MS TANZER: You gave evidence that you know Andries Matanzima Nosenga and that he only joined the hostel after the attack, am I correct that Nosenga on your version, did not take part in the attack and that he is lying?

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, Ma'am, as I recall his evidence it was to the effect that he only saw Mr Nosenga at the hostel after the attack.

MS TANZER: As I understood it Mr Chairman, as I understood all the applicants, they were saying that Nosenga they understood joined the hostel after the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: They became aware of his existence after the attack.

MS TANZER: So may I just put it to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold it, let's just make sure that all our notes say that.  My note says;  I know Matanzima Nosenga from kwaMadala Hostel.  I did not know his role.  I saw him after the attack.  I started to know Matanzima a week after the attack.

MS TANZER: Mr Chairman, I'll rephrase the question anyway but, I'll rephrase the question.
	Did you know of Mr Nosenga's existence at the hostel prior to the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not know that he was an occupant of the hostel before the attack.

MS TANZER: It is possible that he was a resident at the hostel then prior to the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: Let me explain it this way.  Anybody who came from the township, particularly Sebokeng and Everton, if he was staying within the hostel I would have known him.

MS TANZER: So do you doubt whether he was at the hostel prior to the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: Before the attack Matanzima was never a hostel dweller, before the attack.  I could have known if he was in the hostel and coming from Sebokeng or Everton.

MS TANZER: So you deny that he was a resident at the hostel at the time of the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: Exactly.

MS TANZER: I put it to you that in fact Mr Nosenga joined the hostel before you did, in 1991.

MR MAZIBUKO: I dispute that.

MS TANZER: Do you dispute that Mr Nosenga in fact took part in the attack on Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes.

MS TANZER: What motive could one possibly impugn on Mr Nosenga in saying that he took part in the attack if he did not?

MR MAZIBUKO: I'd put his motivation in this way.  There are people who are, when they are before whites and they are interrogated, they say things which are not in existence.  Maybe he was scared when whites were interrogating him, then he stated things that he did not know, that he was present during the attack whilst he was not.

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga is able to give details about meetings and the attack far better than you can, how do you explain that?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is his version and he knows that he's saying things which he did not know, that there were police in the midst of the hostel dwellers.  I hope that the Committee would call those police, then they would say that there were no police, they would say that there were no police within our midst.  The version that he gives is not the true version and I don't align myself with what he is saying.

MS TANZER: Well I put it to you that Mr Nosenga did take part in the attack, that he's going to give evidence that he attended the meetings on the 10th of June and the 14th of June and that the police did collude with the IFP and hostel leaders to attack the residents of Boipatong and in fact they rendered assistance in this regard by supplying weapons, caspirs and manpower.  What is your comment?

MR MAZIBUKO: He would come here and testify?  He would come here and testify?  I think he will be tested if he did or he did not.  If he did that, it will be proven that he did that.  If he did not, he'd be proven that he did not.

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga is going to give evidence, and I put it to you that the members of the police met you in the field where you were sitting and they accompanied you to Boipatong.  In fact some of the residents of the hostel climbed into the Caspirs while others walked with the Caspirs.  What is your comment?

MR MAZIBUKO: I would put it this way.  To respect you, I would not, I'm not going to dispute what you're going to say because I respect you.  He would come here.  I'm not going to contest what you are saying to me, but I'm saying he was not present in the hostel, he did not take part in the attack.  That is the end of my comment to what you are saying to me.

MS TANZER: You are directing your comments to the comments of Mr Nosenga and not myself.

MR MAZIBUKO: I'm saying that because you are saying to me, you are telling me that Nosenga is going to testify that there were police and they were doing those things, but because I respect you I am not going to contest with you because he is your client, I'm not going to comment.

MS TANZER: I'm indebted to you.  Did you notice any men wearing balaclavas on their faces during the attack on Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: No-one put on the balaclavas.  I did not see anyone.

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga states under oath that under orders he killed people.  You state under oath that you killed no-one and only damaged property and did not see anyone kill that night.  If all you applicants are so innocent, why are there so many bodies?

CHAIRPERSON: We have not heard all the applicants.

MS TANZER: I apologise, Mr Chairman.
	The evidence so far is that ...

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should direct your questions to him.

MS TANZER: The evidence we've heard so far is that either somebody was not present at the attack or that they shot in the air and are not sure if they killed anyone.  You say that you didn't kill anyone or assault anyone and yet there are so many bodies found dead the next morning.  Do you still hold that Mr Nosenga is lying?

MR MAZIBUKO: Let me put it this way.  What Nosenga is saying he will come and state it here in front of the Committee and everybody, then he would state before this Committee that he killed so many people and as to whether they females or males or children.

MS TANZER: When he gives such evidence, will you believe him?

MR MAZIBUKO: I would just sit down, keep quiet and listen to him because I don't have power to stand up and ask him questions.  I would just sit down, be quiet and listen to what he is saying.

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga is also going to give evidence that upon returning to the hostel after the attack, celebrations took place, more ndelezi was drank as you were praised and chanted.  Did you join in these celebrations?

MR MAZIBUKO: If I remember well, the following after the attack there were police who came and the alarm was rung.  At the stadium, yes we drank ndelezi, anyone who wanted to, we were not forced.  If you had a belief that ndelezi has something to do for you, and because many people who were present at the stadium came from Natal, and they used to drink it, so they did drink it at the stadium.

MS TANZER: Was ndelezi not drank that night after the attack, not the next night, the very night of the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: I started drinking ndelezi for the first time at the stadium on the 17th before we went to Boipatong.  That was for the first time I drank ndelezi.  When I returned I did not go to the stadium so I did not know as to whether it was put in front of people and other people drank that, I don't know that.

MS TANZER: So you cannot dispute that it did happen, there was celebrations straight after?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I would say that.