Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-12

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Until one of the stones caught him in the eye and that stone dealt him a big blow so that he was defenceless.  He started to stagger.

ADV SIGODI: What time was this now?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: About 3 to 4.

ADV SIGODI: In the afternoon?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes.

MR NDOU: From your evidence it would appear that you had been there for a long time, is that correct?  What time did you arrive at his home that day?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: The people converged there at about 10 or 11 in the morning, so they whole time from 11, 12, 1, 2 they were trying to plead with him to go.

MR NDOU: So all these four hours was spent on negotiating, trying to plead with him to go, is that correct?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes, of course.  And when the people realised that he was hurt, they pleaded with the sons to stop fighting and ordered the wife with the kids to go out to the headman's kraal and leave the old man behind, so that the people can finish him because they have already started striking him with stones.

MR NDOU: Just go slowly.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: So after that stone that struck him in the eye, it rendered him defenceless.  So the people saw that he was with his sons and the wife, so they ordered the sons to stop fighting because their father now was defenceless.  Then the sons stopped fighting and started to negotiate with the mass, so the mass wanted the mother of the kids, again with the kids to go to the headman's kraal as they have nothing to do with the wife in fact.

MR NDOU: So what you are saying is that the crowd was now trying to remove the wife and the kids.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Of course.

MR NDOU: Because they had nothing against them.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes.

MR NDOU: All they wanted, the person that they wanted was ...(intervention)

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Was the old man himself, because he started the fight.

MR NDOU: Now were the children removed?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Of course, together with the wife.

MR NDOU: Yes, and then?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Then, the people jumped the fence.  They jumped the fence and got into his own yard.  They wanted to see where he is because from the time he was struck by the stone he staggered inside the house, so they were wondering where might he be.  So when they got in the house they found that he was bleeding and he was no longer able to see clearly because the blood was all over his face and eyes.

MR NDOU: Yes.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: So from there, it is then that most of the masses now got into the fence and from there I don't really remember what happened until I still remember seeing one of our comrades carrying the tube from the tractor tyre.  The tube was fetch from the Datsun bakkie, that was back there in the garage.

MR NDOU: And what happened to the tube?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: So from that time the house was already set alight because there was no one inside except the old man himself.

ADV SIGODI: Who set the house alight?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: We set the house alight.

ADV SIGODI: You and who?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: And the comrades who were with me at the time.

ADV SIGODI: Who are those?

CHAIRPERSON: There were 3 000 comrades.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes, but 3000 people cannot get into the fence, we were about 15 to 20 people who got into the house first.

MR NDOU: And who are these people?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: It's Ravele Philip, Chester Raguala,

CHAIRPERSON: Your co-accused were among them?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: All of them?

MR NDOU: All of them?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Not all of them, and me too, I didn't get into the house.

CHAIRPERSON: But you went to fetch the petrol?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes, I was the one who was organising petrol at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay.  All you co-accused, co-applicants, did something actively in respect of this incident?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Of course.

MR NDOU: Now when you say "we lit the fire", did you yourself light the fire?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: No, I just carried the petrol around for the people who set the house alight.

MR NDOU: What else did you do?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: From there I was trying to tell the people what was their idea from now because the old man seems to be harmless, he was defenceless, he was about to die, so we wanted to hear from the people, are we finishing him, or what, because we have already started the fight now that the old man was defenceless.  So the emotions led us to finish him.

MR NDOU: Now what else did you do as a person?  You as a person?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: I myself, I was busy trying to see that the people get into the house, those who wanted to get into the house, because I was trying to say, the ones who are about to get into the house, they had to be old, not the small kids, because it was no good for small children to see a dead corpse at the time.  We wanted old people.

MR NDOU: So apart from siphoning petrol, where did you get the petrol from?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: From Ravele's petrol station.

MR NDOU: Oh, so you bought it, you didn't siphon it from someone?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes, we bought it.

MR NDOU: So apart from the carrying of the petrol and beckoning people to get into the yard, what else would you say you did actively in participating in the whole saga?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: I was involved in organising the people, mobilising the people, seeing that the venues of the meetings, I was the one who was organising all those things, the venues of the meetings, the petrol, who is to do what, who was about to go and see who, all those things.

MR NDOU: I see.  Now we've gone now 9 years back.  Now it is 1999, that happened in 1990.  Now at the time you were 20 years of age.  You've just told the Committee today that you are now 29.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Of course.

MR NDOU: Have you grown up?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Of course?

MR NDOU: And now what do you think about those events?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: So what I think of those events at such time, when I start to look at things from a different angle now when I am old like this, I'm so sorry and I feel remorse for what has happened to the family of Mr Edward Mahvunga.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, this is not criminal court, remorse is not one of the requirements.

MR NDOU: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm happy to hear that he's remorseful, but you ask questions, you may get the wrong answer.

MR NDOU: Thank you.  I see it is now 20 past 4.

CHAIRPERSON: No, carry on, are you going to be more with him?

MR NDOU: Can we proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR NDOU: Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We're going to try to finish him tonight.

MR NDOU: Okay, is there anything else that you want to tell the Committee?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes, I want to tell the Committee to accept that during that time from 1988 as we have already indicated, the situation in Venda as we have already indicated in several ways, was not that normal.  Even we ourselves.

CHAIRPERSON: We've heard that from the previous witness and you.

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything that you want to say to the families of the victim?

ROGER KACHERO RAMASITSI: Of course.

CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed.