Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-08

CHAIRPERSON: Well, thank you, Rose.  I know that we have taken a long time but we can't help it because really the aim of the Truth Commission is that the people must empty themselves.  There must be a ... (inaudible) ... experience which takes place.  We've listened to you.  You have also been a sufferer with all those detentions, etcetera, etcetera.  You are really a victim yourself.  As the committee member has just said that we have noted all what you have said and we shall forward your concerns and requests to the government for consideration.  We thank you all for being so patient. I know that you are hungry but you have been very patient which means that you understand this mission - that this mission is for telling stories.  We can't stop the people when they are telling stories.  That is where the catharsis takes place.  Now, we shall adjourn for lunch and then my colleagues here advise me that we should come back at quarter past two sharp.  We are left with three case which will take up to quarter past three and we're going to finish in time.  Just bear with us.  LONG ADJOURNMENT
/ON RESUMPTION
ON RESUMPTION
MAKHATHATSO NCALA

PROF MAGWAZA: We greet you Mrs Ncala and we thank you for being here with us today.  In this statement it is stated here that you stay at No 1634 Thokosa Street, Tabong, Welkom and you were born on the 23rd October 1941.  You are here to make a statement or to tell us the story about your daughter Anna Ncele who was shot dead by the police.

WITNESS:   That's correct.

PROF MAGWAZA: Before you tell us the story, we would like to know more about your daughter.  She is special.  She is very special because she's one of the few young females who died in the struggle so she was in the struggle for women as well.  Could you tell me how old was Anna at the time when she was shot by the police?  What was she doing?  Was she at school or was she working?  Did she belong ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   She was still at Lebohang.  She born in 1972.

PROF MAGWAZA: She was born in 1972.  She was still going to school.  What class?

WITNESS:   She was doing Standard 8.

PROF MAGWAZA: Okay, fine.  Can you tell us more about your family as well, your husband and your children?

WITNESS:   I have five children.  Two of them are married.  Two of them are students and the other one is no more at school.

PROF MAGWAZA: Is there any one of them working?

WITNESS:   All of them are not working though two are married.  The other one is at the Technikon in Cape Town.

PROF MAGWAZA: I notice in the statement also that you are married.  Is your husband working?

WITNESS:   He's not working.  It's for a long time that he has been unemployed.  He's unemployed. He's not with you today.  Where is he?   ---   He's not able to walk so he's at home.

PROF MAGWAZA: What's wrong with him?

WITNESS:   His legs are swollen so he's not able to walk.

PROF MAGWAZA: I would like you to tell us the story about your daughter's death.  Just start from the beginning and just give us the full picture of what happened on that particular day.

WITNESS:   She was at school on Monday morning and there was an unrest at school and then she was returned from school by the teachers because she was told that police are coming to beat boys in the school.  Then she returned.  On the way in one of the streets that were full of students and police then they turned and took another street.  That is where other police came.  When they arrived she was with her sister.  Then one policeman arrived there, then he shot her.  Then he shot her on the head.  When she fell down, when she tried to wake up she was shot again and then her sister came to tell us.  Then other students took her to the Kombi, then we took her to Oppenheimer Hospital.  Then the father went with her to Oppenheimer Hospital.  When she was still there, she stayed there three days.  We paid the hospital bills.  On Wednesday the doctor called me and informed me that she has been shot by a person who has been trained to shoot twice on the head and these bullets are right inside the head.  On Thursday we were informed that we should come again.  When we arrived there they told us that she had died.  We went back home and then we informed other relatives.  Then her father went there to look for her at the hospital and she was nowhere to be found.  And then the other  week they were able to find her in the hospital.  They were helped by the undertaker trying to look for her in the hospital.  They looked for her on Thursday the whole night.  Then they phoned one policeman to go and find out where her corpse is.  She was found among other people who died so we were able to arrange for the funeral on Friday.

PROF MAGWAZA: Okay, Mama, there are just a few things I would like to clarify.  If you could go back a little bit.  What was happening at that time?  Why were there so many protests and riots at school?  What was happening, if you could remember?

WITNESS:   I don't know exactly what was happening at that time.  Children were chased by the police and these police were shooting all over.  They were even shooting as us.  Even when we were trying to go to the hospital, they were still shooting.  We didn't know what was happening exactly.

PROF MAGWAZA: You say that your daughter came back from school because the police were expected to be going to beat the boys but your daughter was not a boy.  Why did she leave school because it was just for boys?

WITNESS:   The teachers instructed the girls to go home because they understood that the police are coming.

PROF MAGWAZA: Was Anna actively involved in politics?  Did she have a position in some other organisation?

WITNESS:   Yes, she was involved in politics.  Even the same police who shot her told her that he wanted to marry her and that she should leave politics alone because this policeman told her that his wife died.

PROF MAGWAZA: Did the policeman really love her?

WITNESS:   He told me that.  Then she denied it because she says he's an  old person.

PROF MAGWAZA: Was Anna more involved in politics than others?  Why did they single her and shoot here because she was with other people?

WITNESS:   He knew her because he wanted her to leave politics because he wanted to marry her.

PROF MAGWAZA: So you believe that the policeman, among other things, shot Anna because Anna had refused to marry him?

WITNESS:   Yes, she told the boys whom they were working with and doing politics together, then she told her that she's always giving him problems so that's why she was shot among other students.

PROF MAGWAZA: Are you talking about Elias Jaboli?  That's the policeman you're talking about?

WITNESS:   Anna is my child.  Then I believe that that's the same person I'm talking about.

PROF MAGWAZA: You also mentioned Hugo here, that he was also involved in the murder of Anna.

WITNESS:   Hugo used to come to our house looking for Anna.

PROF MAGWAZA: Over and above Hugo you also mention Pakathi.  How was Pakathi involved?

WITNESS:   After they shot and killed Anna, the police left on that day.

PROF MAGWAZA: And Pakathi?  Tell us more about Pakathi.

WITNESS:   I know that he was the person who was beating people at night in the streets and he was even involved in the shootings in many instances.  That's what I know about Pakathi.

PROF MAGWAZA: I see.  Do you know where Hugo or Elias is now?

WITNESS:   This same policeman is still working.  The same day when my daughter was shot, one boy who identified him as Elias, so he's still working.

PROF MAGWAZA: Where is he working?

WITNESS:   At Tabong police  station.

PROF MAGWAZA: And Hugo is still also in the same police station?  Where is Hugo?

WITNESS:   I don't know.  I was told that he's staying at Riebeeck.

PROF MAGWAZA: According to your statement they also burnt Elias' house.  Who did that after your daughter's murder?