Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-05-03

MR MATTHEWS: But usually no, you were a member of the Transkei Defence Force at the time.  The Transkei Defence Force was in fact training ANC people from Natal.  It was perceived, whether rightly or wrongly by the people of Natal that the Transkei Defence Force in fact sided with the ANC.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: There is no evidence of such.

MR MATTHEWS: Mr Lekata there is lots of evidence that's been led in the Supreme Court in many trials about the training of ANC recruits in Umtata, and this was known to people within the IFP and other political organisations.  The Transkei Defence Force was perceived as being the hand of the ANC within the Republic.  Remember we are talking about 1993 here.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: Even so, I do not know that to be how the military operates.

MR MATTHEWS: But if - we have heard that your brother, the three persons who are given in the indictment at the trial as Transkei Defence Force members but who might now have included a policeman seemed to have come to Durban to look for a stolen motor vehicle.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: The policeman referred to was a military police officer.

MR MATTHEWS: It would have been outside their jurisdiction in 1993.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: Yes that is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: So you understand then that if Transkei Defence Force members are operating within the Natal side of the border that the people there could perceive them as doing something which was - I don't say that that is the case here, doing something which was not according to the law.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: Did this give them the right to kill them.

MR MATTHEWS: Certainly not.  But just answer the question.  Do you agree that it would be perceived that they were up to no good if they were outside the Transkei's territorial territory and operating within an IFP area in Natal?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: That is not so.

MR MATTHEWS: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MATTHEWS

MR LAX: Just one question, Chairperson.  Mr Lekata what section or part of the Transkei Defence Force was your brother a part of?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: He worked in the workshop.

MR LAX: So was he a mechanic in the Defence Force?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: I think he was in charge although I was not in the same section.

MR LAX: And I understand that the other two people, one was a military policeman and the other one was a logistical person, is that correct?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: And as far as you know and what you were told by whoever, they went to look for a vehicle in Durban?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: Yes, that's what I heard.

MR LAX: You don't know who sent them on that mission?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: No it was at the time when I was on leave.

MR LAX: Now I see that your brother has left three children, was he married at all?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: Yes he was.

MR LAX: Before you leave if you would kindly just give your brother's wife's details to Ms Mtanga or the other lady sitting next to you so that we could at least have her details on record as well please.  This is the mother of these children?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: Yes.

MR LAX: Then we would just like her details please.
Thank you.

DR TSOTSI: From your observation, just a minute before you go, what kind of, from your observation what kind of weapon could have been used to cause the injuries that you found on your brother?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: It must have been a sharp weapon because however it was not very easy to tell because his body had been buried, hidden, under the ground.

DR TSOTSI: It could have been a knife, it could have been an axe, can't you say which it might be?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: Something sharp.

DR TSOTSI: Could it not have been a bullet wound?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: Because of how the body had been buried we could not really observe much about that.

CHAIRPERSON: There were about ten of these injuries all on the front part of his body, is that not so?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: There were many.  The body was also decomposed.  Even his jacket was slashed ribbed.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for having come, and I thank you also for having come.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MS MTANGA: Chairperson the next person that I will be taking is Mr Joseph Hlangisa.  The brother of Mr Hlangisa was killed by the applicant.  He would like to put some questions to the applicant.

MR HLANGISA: I would like to know who was with Soja when they killed my brother, Mandisa?

MR MBHELE: I didn't kill Makosandile.  My only involvement in connection with him is that I was the one who went and fetched him and put him in the boot and drove with him to the chief, but I didn't kill him.  The community, they killed him.

MR HLANGISA: He was a member of the IFP.  He actually showed me his IFP card, so he was an IFP member.  It was on Saturday 1st November in 1993 when he showed me his card.  He also sent me to go and apply for an IFP card.  When I returned back I found out you've killed him already and you've burnt his body.  When I went to see his body in the mortuary his body was pitch-black. I didn't see any part which was clear in his body because he was badly burnt.

MR MBHELE: I would like you to take note of this.  I was called early in the morning.  I was at the camp at Chief Dhlamini.  I was told that three guys were captured or kidnapped.  When I arrived there one female told me that she saw your brother and your brother was with ANC people.  They kidnapped three boys, one from Posa and one from Zumi.
	I went with Shilembe and we found your brother up the hill and he tried to run away.  I caught him and I took him and I put him in the boot and I said to your family that we didn't catch him and yet I wasn't telling the truth because he was inside the boot.  Yes I was involved in this but I didn't kill him.  My only involvement was to capture him.

MR HLANGISA: I think you know everyone who was involved in this, now you say you didn't kill him personally but you know the people who killed him because you actually captured him.  I know you were not going to capture him alone but you were with other people.  You know them.

MR MBHELE: What I did is that I pointed a G3 at him and I told him to get inside the boot and he got inside the boot.  Shilembe closed the boot door.  He got inside and we left with him.  We drove past your family's house and I told everyone that he wasn't there.  And when I arrived there he got out of the boot and he tried to run away and the community started stoning and they tried to kill him.
	I continued, I went to a certain shop and I am telling the honest truth that I didn't do anything except capturing him.

MR HLANGISA: I am sure and I do believe that you shot him because you also told other people that you shot him and after that his body was discovered and he was shot and he was burnt.  He had a wife and his wife was two month's pregnant at the time and now the child is here with us.

MR MBHELE: Even though this is very sad, but if you can remember the community of that area was the one who used to tell us, to come to us and report other people to us.  They used to tell Mabiza that a certain person was doing this and this and Mabiza will send us to go and do things to these people.  Were you sent to do that?  Were you sent to kill my brother?

MR MBHELE: Yes I was, I was sent to do quite a number of things.

MR HLANGISA: And also I heard that your brother was among the people who killed the three members of IFP who were kidnapped therefore you are trying to tell me that you believed that my brother was involved in kidnapping and killing of these IFP members.