Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-25

MR KUNY: And what was - do you recall more or less when this was?  When you had actually spoken to Mrs Mandela about it?

MS FALATI: Mrs Mandela was not there, there was Gogo Mabusa, that was the housekeeper as Mrs Mandela's house.

MR KUNY: Yes.

MS FALATI: He actually told me that Mrs Mandela is going to Victor Verster, I must wait for her.  So I waited for her.  He was to be alighted from the four o'clock plane from Victor Verster, she was visiting the President.

MR KUNY: And did you speak to her when she returned?

MS FALATI: Yes, I spoke to her when she returned.

MR KUNY: And what was her response?

MS FALATI: She said we must go with her, John Morgan, to fetch Katiza.

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, first we've got a tea break in the offing, but I wanted to say I am letting you have an extra five minutes and perhaps are you able, we hope you would be able within that five minutes to wrap things up?

MR KUNY: It is going to be difficult, I will try to speed things up, but the witness has some ...

CHAIRPERSON: Can you try to expedite it so that at the end of five minutes we could then take the tea break with you having finished your leading.

MR KUNY: Yes.  Do I then have another five minutes?

CHAIRPERSON: Now, yes.

MR KUNY: As the Chair pleases.  You went and fetched Katiza Cebekhulu?

MS FALATI: Yes sir.

MR KUNY: And is it correct that you went to Dr Asvat's rooms?

MS FALATI: Yes, we went to Dr  (indistinct) Asvat.

MR KUNY: And Katiza was examined by Dr Asvat?

MS FALATI: Yes, he was examined by Dr Asvat, but by that time he was not using, he actually changed the driver, the driver was not John Morgan this time.  But it was somebody else from the Orlando West.

MR KUNY: And the allegation was again made that Dr Asvat's room that Katiza had been sexually assaulted?

MS FALATI: Yes.

MR KUNY: The purpose of the examination was to establish whether such an assault had taken place?

MS FALATI: Yes.

MR KUNY: And after that you went back to Mrs Mandela's house, is that correct?

MS FALATI: Yes sir.

MR KUNY: Now, what happened after that?  Did Mrs Mandela give any instructions regarding what should happen then?

MS FALATI: I beg your pardon?

MR KUNY: Did Mrs Mandela then say anything regarding what further should happen?

MS FALATI: No, after Katiza was examined by Dr Asvat, then they had a little private talk with Mrs Mandela and then we went out.  On our way out, in the kombi, I told Mrs Mandela about the other people who I suspected that they were also involved in this sexual abuse.

MR KUNY: And you then went back to Mrs Mandela's house?

MS FALATI: Yes, we went back to Mrs Mandela's house.

MR KUNY: Now, I want to deal with the events that happened thereafter, once you got to the house, what happened thereafter?

MS FALATI: When we got into the house, he actually ordered John Morgan to take the bus, not the minibus, not the KZ as the blue and white Volkswagen, but the bus she was given as a present by Professor Fatima (indistinct), that is the bus which took us to Mzimhlope.  And there were comrades, when we came back, there were comrades from Mzimhlope.  That is the Mzimhlope branch of MK.
 So we moved to Mzimhlope, some alighted there and some went and boarded, then we went straight to Dundee, Orlando West to the mission and John Morgan parked the kombi on the other second street from the mission.

MR KUNY: Evidence had been given by other witnesses that certain persons were then taken, fetched from the mission and taken back to Mrs Mandela's house, is that correct.

MS FALATI: Yes sir.

MR KUNY: Who were those people?

MS FALATI: That was Stompie Sepei, Thabiso Mono, Kenny Kgase.  The four, Katiza was there too.

MR KUNY: What happened when you got back to Mrs Mandela's house?

MS FALATI: In fact on our way we were chanting slogans, that is chanting revolutionary songs.

MR KUNY: And you got back to Mrs Mandela's house?

MS FALATI: Yes.

MR KUNY: And what happened when you got back to the household?

MS FALATI: We were told that we should go at the back, that is a changing room which has got glass sliding doors.  So we were told that we should go at the back of the house.

MR KUNY: Who were you told by?

MS FALATI: We were told by a person who was Gogo, he was coming out, he said we mustn't come into the house, we must go out, right at the back of the house.

MR KUNY: And you went into the change room?

MS FALATI: Yes, we went into the change room.

MR KUNY: About how many people were there then would you estimate?

MS FALATI: We were so many, we were so many including some of those who boarded at Mzimhlope, that is the MK branch Mzimhlope.

MR KUNY: And evidence has been given about an occasion where there was some sort of disciplinary hearing.  Was Mrs Mandela present then?

MS FALATI: Yes, she was there at the time.

MR KUNY: And what happened at this occasion?

MS FALATI: Well, when we got there, she came and there was a chair where she was supposed to sit, the chair was taken by John Morgan.  Then somebody had to bring another chair into that room.
 As we were sitting down, we were ordered to sit down, then she said to me I must stand up and give testimony to one of them, one by one.  So I had to give testimony, I said this is Kenny Kgase who is actually writing books.  He is actually a writer, he wanted to write about the life of comrades in hiding and the other one was - he is from somewhere in Bophutatswana and the other one was Pilo from the West Rand and the other one was Thabiso also from the West Rand, originally from Parys, and the other one was Stompie from Parys.  And I indicated that we have a sort of caucus a meeting, at the mission, that Stompie was a sell-out.
 So that I told Mrs Mandela.

MR KUNY: Is that a view that you had held?

MS FALATI: Yes, at the mission we had a caucus because there was a time when Stompie would go and come back, he will come back, so there was a badge, a round badge which was given to Father Paul Verryn by certain church members and that - he had written don't go.  It was given to Stompie so that he could wear it, he mustn't go and go with the cars because one time when he went away, we asked where were you Stompie.  He said I was at Archbishop - Archbishop Tutu's house is in the same street with the mission, that is (indistinct).  It is right down, so the mission is right at the (indistinct) Street and as you go down, it is Mrs Mandela's.  As you go further down it is Archbishop Tutu's home.  So he said he was showing these people who was looking for Archbishop Tutu's home.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I, I am not talking about my house, I am suggesting that perhaps we should take the break for tea and can we try to come back at half past, thank you.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS FOR TEA - ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.  Thank you very much.  Let me not repeat what I said yesterday.  May I just indicate that we have lost 13 of these headphones and sets and wants to remind you that they are totally useless apart from the system in which they operate.  Secondly they are dangerous.
 When you go out with them, they will bite you.  Thirdly, please leave them on your seats at every break, don't take them out tea time and lunch time and I am quite certain that everyone, there is nobody here who is dishonest.  We are all wonderfully honest people, thank you very much.  The 13 that disappeared, they will come back and then we have a re-arranged schedule that after Xoliswa, Ms Falati, we will be taking Mr Cebekhulu, because they are due to leave to go back to the UK.
 Could I just suggest that it will be a help Ms Falati, if you try to answer briefly the question that your lawyer put to you and I am going to be a little more indulgent and give you another five or so minutes.