Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-23

ADV MEMANI: Were your informers, the informers you saw on that day registered or not registered?

MR KOPI: Others were registered, others were not registered but the one I met on that day he was registered.

ADV MEMANI: Now, every informer has got a number, isn't it?

MR KOPI: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And what is the difference between the number of a registered informer and a number of an unregistered informer?

MR KOPI: The one which is registered, I would say, OFS7 only, the other one it will start with, there were numbers before the symbols there, then they would just put it on the particular paper.

ADV MEMANI: And what did you say, how did you describe the
number of the registered informer?

MR KOPI: The registered informer would have a particular number and the unregistered informer would have a number again.

ADV MEMANI: You told us that an unregistered informer's number starts with OFS.

MR KOPI: I said a registered informer would have OFS or 7 then other unregistered numbers would have a number inbetween.  Would have numbers inbetween then it would say unregistered informer then they would put his number in front.

ADV MEMANI: A registered informer would have a number inbetween, inbetween what?

ADV MEMANI: It would unregistered informer then after that it would be a number.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, my attention has been drawn to the fact that my learned friend, Mr Memani, has his hand in front of his mouth and apparently his voice is not coming through.

CHAIRPERSON: I've already drawn his attention to that and asked him to take his hand away from his mouth, he apparently has difficulty in sitting up without holding his chin.

ADV MEMANI: Now, Mr Kopi, what is, and how does the number of the registered informer appear?

MR KOPI: Sir, I've already explained that.  Do you need the number for unregistered informer or registered informer.

ADV MEMANI: Mr, I told you, you told us about the number of an unregistered informer and I'm saying now tell us about the number of the registered informer.

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, really, I wonder if Mr Memani could explain where this cross-examination is leading.  It seems to me to have absolutely nothing to do with the applications.

CHAIRPERSON: He said yesterday afternoon that it would become clear I'm still waiting to understand what the purpose of this is.  Mr Memani, you will remember that on the regulations in the Act governing these hearings there is a limited right of cross-examination.  You appear to be determined to prolong it for as long as possible.  I trust that at some stage the purpose of your cross-examination will become clear.  And will you take you hand away from your mouth again are you incapable of sitting up without holding your chin?

ADV MEMANI: My hand is away from my mouth, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Take it away from your chin.  Sit up as if you're in a court. You aren't slumped here.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I'm not slumped here, I'm holding on to the side of my face but I'm not slumped.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you answer the objection that has now been taken.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I've already finalised the aspect that I was dealing with yesterday and that aspect was that I found it strange that he said he would be away for such a long time.  That is why I was asking those questions yesterday.

CHAIRPERSON: Well as far as I'm concerned you have finalised nothing that couldn't have been done in five or ten minutes questioning.

ADV MEMANI: Well Mr Chairman it was the witness is not answering the questions.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I do object to that, with great respect we all know that the witness has promptly answered all questions and I wouldn't like this to stand uncontested on the record.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on, Mr Memani, what's your next question?

ADV MEMANI: Now, Mr Kopi, I was asking you to tell us about how the number of an informer who was registered appears.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kopi, did you tell us that the number of a registered informer would be "OFS"?

MR KOPI: The registered informer would be "OFS" and the men would put 7 in front of "OFS".  The unregistered informer it would be written "unregistered informer", then thereafter he'd put numbers then they, then lastly on the end of that then they would put another number.

ADV MEMANI: Now, my instructions are that you are entirely incorrect that ...[intervention]

MR KOPI: The person who says I am not telling the correct things is the one who is not telling us the correct things.

ADV MEMANI: But the number of the unregistered informer would begin with OFS and then a number and then something would be put in brackets.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Memani, I'll be prepared to accept that that's the position.  That he's wrong in this and that it's the other way round.  But can you please now explain to me what's the relevance for your application?

ADV MEMANI: He says that he was not at the place where people were being assaulted because he went to see an informer, that he does have informers.  I am then trying, I'm saying to you he was not at any meeting with informers, in fact he did not have informers and I'm trying to test that.  That is why I'm saying to him he must tell us what numbers look like for instance.  Now I'm also told that the number of a registered informer would begin with an S, an S and then you get the number.

MR KOPI: I hear the S for the first time.

ADV MEMANI: That you worked with Mbanjani in the office where information was gathered.

MR KOPI: I haven't worked with Mbanjani.

ADV MEMANI: In the main, you were an interrogator.

MR KOPI: I said, if you are called and being instructed that you should interrogate, or interpret, you'd do that because that is a command you get from your sectional head.

ADV MEMANI: No, but, we know that there were field workers for instance we've been told that there were people who worked mainly with the MK and ANC and Mbanjani told us he was mainly in the office doing, listening to the news and so on and I'm told that you worked in that office and that you were also specialising in interrogation.

MR KOPI: You tell me that Mbanjani was listening to peoples news.  I don't understand as to whether was I with Mbanjani or I was with those who were investigating.  Can you just clarify your question.

CHAIRPERSON: What he's put to  you is you worked  in the same office with Mbanjani and that you were, although you worked in the same office with him, you were employed there as an interrogator.  That is what he is suggesting to you.

MR KOPI: I now understand.  At times I got to Mbanjani's office but not, it was not my daily business to do that.

ADV MEMANI: And in the main you were an interrogator?

MR KOPI: I was interrogating and again I was working with informers.

ADV MEMANI: You are not convincing you know because you had the numbers even muddled up.

MR KOPI: That's how I remembered those numbers for
informers.

ADV MEMANI: Then what is an SAP5.

MR KOPI: It's a diary.

ADV MEMANI: And an SAP67?
	If I may have a moment Chairperson.

INTERPRETER: The interpreters were struggling with the word "verslag", it has been interpreted as a report.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Kopi, I'm putting it to you that you did not see any informer on the 6th April 1986?

MR KOPI: I tell you that I met my informer.

ADV MEMANI: And you did not have any informer.

MR KOPI: I had informers.

ADV MEMANI: You are saying these things in an attempt to pull yourself away from Fountain Police Station because you know that people were assaulted there on that day.

MR KOPI: I'm not taking myself out of the situation.

ADV MEMANI: When you came back to the office at about three did you see that people had been beaten up?

MR KOPI: I said that I, I said I left there at half past three that I didn't see any person who was beaten.  I went to fifth floor then I took my belongings then I went down to Du Plooy report to him.