Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-02

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, indeed it appears at page 134 that that would have been the end of the incident.  I think then what happened, the conversation which follows at page 136, related to us dealing with the next matter, rather than with completing Mohapi.
	Yes, Mr Chairman, and then the answer follows at page 136 which says -
"Yes, it was part of our work during the state of emergency, that is the method we used during the state of emergency."
It then follows that this was the end of the evidence and what was following here, was not related to Mohapi, as the Chair pleases.

UNKNOWN: Sorry, should not the witness be sworn in first, Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: I was still addressing the Committee Mr Chairman.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: It will be recorded that the applicant was duly sworn in.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chairman pleases.  Now, Mr Ngo also applied in respect of certain incidents which would have taken place in Pretoria.  We propose that we will deal with those matters after we have finished all the local incidents.
	It was our understanding during the pre-hearing meeting in Pretoria, that the Committee proposes to deal with them here despite the fact that they occurred in Pretoria.  I call the applicant to deal with offence 2.13, the assault and torture of comrades at Bloemfontein during 1986.

ADV DE JAGER: On the pre-trial minute, we are dealing now with number?

ADV MEMANI: 2.13, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: The assault and torture of comrades at Bloemfontein?

ADV MEMANI: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Right, okay.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Ngo, do you have the application in front of you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Do you mean the application which talks about 20 to 25 comrades?

ADV MEMANI: In Bloemfontein?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, I have it with me.

ADV MEMANI: Would you please tell the Committee about that incident?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was in 1986.  During that time it happened that there was certain comrades who were arrested in Ladybrand.  They were trying to skip the country.  They were arrested by the South African Defence Force.
	They handed them over to Ladybrand police station, where they were interrogated by the Security Branch.  After they were interrogated, they transferred them to Bloemfontein police station.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Memani, could you kindly assist us?  Refer us to the bundle please?  In the bundle, where is this matter dealt with, page what?

ADV MEMANI: This matter is dealt with at page 27 of the bundle, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

ADV MEMANI: May the witness proceed Mr Chairman?  You may proceed Mr Ngo.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: When we reported at work at Bloemfontein, at the Security Branch offices, we met two policemen who came from Ladybrand Security Branch.  That is Warrant Officer Sefatsa and Constable Jantjie.
	They explained to myself and Sergeant Mamome and Constable Motsamai that that group of comrades whom they have brought were trying to cross the border when they were arrested by the South African Defence Force.  Sergeant Mamome said to me that we should go and look who those people were.

ADV MEMANI: Before you proceed, at which police station did this take place?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: They were transferred from Ladybrand, it was at Fountain, those are the Security Branch offices.

ADV MEMANI: Okay.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: When we arrived, we saw those comrades.  I was able to identify some of them.  That is Joel Makhubelo, Petrus Monase, Baba Khusela and a certain girl whom I knew only as Dawn.
	After we have examined them, we went to the parade in the morning.  When we arrived at the parade, we were told by Colonel Coetzee about the intentions of those comrades, that they wanted to cross the border to be trained outside the country.
	Colonel Coetzee instructed Lieutenant Erasmus and Lieutenant Shaw that they should divide the members of the Security Branch into two groups.  One of those groups should be led by Lieutenant Erasmus and the other one should be led by Lieutenant Shaw.
	He said that even that group of comrades should be divided into two groups.  Colonel Coetzee and Colonel Stevenson came and instructed those two groups that they should go and assault or beat those comrades and interrogate them in the following way.
	Firstly who was the organiser, that they should cross the border?  Secondly, who advised them that they should cross the border?  Who transported them from Bloemfontein up to Lesotho?  Who was their contact person in Lesotho?  How many of them skipped the country in that way or before them? 	
	After we received those instructions from those two Officers, we went to them, we asked them those questions.  When they denied to respond to those questions we assaulted them with plastic sjamboks and with our fists and kicking them inside those rooms.
	When they denied to respond to those questions again, the way we were assaulting them, we changed our system.  We started to electrocute them on their private parts - those who were males.
	Whilst we were shocking the others, we were suffocating other comrades who were waiting for the chance to be interrogated and be assaulted.  Warrant Officer Tsoametsi and Warrant Officer Ramoseu called me and Constable Mtyala that we should bring 2,5 litres of water.
	When we arrived with those litres of water, they said we should try to force everyone that they should drink each two litres of that water.  After we made them to drink those litres of water, we forced them to do frog jump exercises and do the push ups on the ground and the high jump, whilst we were assaulting them and kicking them on their stomachs with our feet.
	And we were forcing them to answer those questions.  After some time ...

ADV MEMANI: Mr Ngo, I don't know if you can hear the interpreter.  Will you give the interpreter the chance to complete his interpretation before you proceed.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Okay.  Whilst we were continuing, some of those comrades lost their strength, they could even feel anymore, or they were numb.  Some of them started to sleep on the floor whilst we were assaulting them with those plastic sjamboks.
	Some of them complained to Colonel Stevenson that they were hungry, then he said they should not be given food unless they do the confessions which he wanted them to make.
	After we have assaulted some of them, Colonel Coetzee and Colonel Stevenson said some members of the Investigation Unit should take statements from those comrades.  And they then tried to change some of the comrades to be State witnesses against their fellow comrades.
	And some of them, we should try to recruit them to be the informants of the Security Branch.  If some of them denied to be the informants of the Security Branch, they should be assaulted again.  Those who were regarded as the leaders of the comrades were taken to the Special Investigation Unit which was led by Captain Du Plooy, Lieutenant Tereblanche, Warrant Officer Nick Swanepoel, Constable Kopi and Constable Mmelesi so that they should be assaulted again and then their cases should be investigated further.
	Some of the comrades who were there, that is comrade Monase, comrade Baba Khusela, comrade Joel Makhubelo, and Shadrack were bleeding through the ears because of the severity of the beating by the members of that Unit.
	The police who took part in the assault were organised by Colonel Coetzee and Colonel Stevenson to assault those comrades.  Those who took part in the beating were Lieutenant Shaw, Warrant Officer Swanepoel, Warrant Officer Cronje, Warrant Officer Koka, Warrant Officer Ramoseu,  Warrant Officer Tsoametsi, Sergeant Mamome, Constable Motsamai, Constable Mtyala, Constable Mininqwa, Warrant Officer Killian and Constable Nelson.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Ngo, did you have any personal grievance against these people?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Do you mean against the comrades?