Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-17

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.  I had spoken to these members well before, from the time that I had first met them, because the Riot Squad, the Murder and Robbery, Vehicle Branch, etcetera, I showed all these branches the vehicles that my members drove and I spoke to them and so forth, because those were the people who would be on the streets that night and who were actually, who could foil my whole operation if they arrested my people.  So, I picked the people who came from certain cultures, who had been in the border wars and so forth and were disciplined.  Same with Murder and Robbery and Detective Branch.  I did not go to each and every individual and say to him you must come with me, because you are so good.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you deliberately say, as I recorded you saying, they could foil my whole operation?  So, you regarded it as your operation.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, the security branch and my operation.  For instance, if they seize my Kombi tonight or they apprehend my people at a roadblock or they find an AK47 magazine in the Kombi and those people are with them in the Kombi, then they would have arrested him, them and what am I left with then?

CHAIRPERSON: You would have had some people arrested, which you have been trying to do for a long time.  That is what you would have been left with.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I agree, but they were not always in the Kombi together.  Sometimes it was only my people in the Kombi.  So, it was not as if they were all, all seven or all eight in the Kombi at a particular time.

MR B WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Captain Bellingan, with regard to the investigation of the matter, your emphatic answer to my learned colleague here was that you were not involved in the investigation at all.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: What investigation are you referring to?

MR B WILLIAMS: I am talking about the investigation of the case itself.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, I was not involved at all.

MR B WILLIAMS: All right.  Now, that one finds a little bit difficult to believe and hear me out and then you can respond to it.  This was a Vlakplaas operation.  This was an operation that arose out of a Vlakplaas infiltration.  Am I correct?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, in conjunction with the local security police.

MR B WILLIAMS: Under no circumstances could it be allowed that information may come out that there were other individuals who were askaris, perhaps, involved in this.  Am I correct?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.

MR B WILLIAMS: Under no circumstances could it also come out that or that it could appear that you had planned this particular counter-ambush in the detail which you had?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Please just repeat the question.

MR B WILLIAMS: Under no circumstances could it come, could the information be made available that you had planned this information, this operation to the extent that you had?  In other words, that you were using askaris as informants, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, it would not come out that it was askaris, but the people that I trusted and the other specialist units, they were well aware of the fact that these were people from Pretoria and, perhaps, the word "askari" was not mentioned, but that they were people who came down here to infiltrate, but Liebenberg was fully aware of what was going on.

MR B WILLIAMS: I find it difficult to believe that you would not make sure that the investigation into this matter followed a particular course or stayed on course, better said?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: It was not within my competence to ensure that that happened, it was not for me to tell a person at Murder and Robbery to do this or that.

MR B WILLIAMS: But if I could just take you to the comment that the learned Chairperson, respectfully, raised with you earlier.  A thorough Murder and Robbery Detective could undo your entire operation.  He was a man on the ground.  You agree?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, it may be.

MR B WILLIAMS: So, you had to make sure, to some extent,  that whatever was coming out in this investigation was not going to prejudice your position as a Vlakplaas operative or your informers?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: The idea was to give the full credit and honour to the Murder and Robbery Branch.  I think that is clear from newspaper clippings.  Mr Kleyn and some of his colleagues are shown or depicted in the newspaper with all these weapons and the idea was to take away the credit and the spotlight from the security or from Vlakplaas.

MR B WILLIAMS: Yes, you see, because one of the things that came out at the criminal trial which had taken place in this matter was that the evidence of the bullets and pellets that had been extracted from all the deceased in this matter had disappeared.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I cannot comment on that.  I have absolutely no knowledge of that. Major Brits and I, the, Major Brits was the Investigating Officer and we knew each other, but I, as a Sergeant, did not have knowledge of the contents of the docket.

MR B WILLIAMS: Can I ask you a hypothetical question?  Would you agree that Vlakplaas would be capable of such a disappearance?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Not as far as I know.  I was never involved in anything like that.  I suppose anything is possible, but I would have known of that and then I would have admitted it.

MR B WILLIAMS: Are you also aware that there were some independent witnesses who lived in those hostels who gave testimony at the time?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, I think at the inquest there was such evidence and in the civil claim there was evidence to that effect, yes.

MR B WILLIAMS: And are you aware that there were suggestions, at the time, that the investigating officer in this matter had tampered with these peoples' statements?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I am not aware of that.

MR B WILLIAMS: You cannot recall that?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I was simply asked why my statement was handed in so long afterwards and to this day I do not know why it was handed in 23 days later.

MR B WILLIAMS: Your Worship, at this stage, I am not sure that I am going to be too long, but, perhaps, it might be appropriate at this stage to adjourn.  I am not sure how the Committee feels.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think some of us have had a long day sitting in boxes and working very hard and I think the time has come when we should adjourn.  I would like to know whether nine o' clock tomorrow morning would suit.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, there is still the issue of the inspection.  My, I have got a view about it that it is a complete waste of time, we have got, I do not know whether you have been ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I suggest that you all talk about it.

MR BOOYENS: No, we have.

CHAIRPERSON: You have.

MR BOOYENS: I do not know whether you have been supplied with these photo, aerial photographs as well.  We have been supplied with an album showing some aerial photographs of the scene, we have seen a video at the time.  I am, it, by the sounds of things, I am the only, think I am the only one who had visited the scene beforehand and in my humble submission, but, obviously subject to what my colleagues say, in my humble submission, we would be wasting valuable time going out there.  I think any Commission or Court, for that matter, would have been able to form a fairly good idea, having looked at that video, and if you look at the aerial photographs as to what the scenery looked like and to walk there and have a policeman say, no, there you can see it on the aerial photograph and this is where I stood on the ground and the whole scene looks different.  It is 12 years or eight years later.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, what puts me off the idea is what you said earlier that the place has changed so much that one will no longer get a picture of what was happening, what it looked like at the time, but I think you are wrong in saying you are the only one.  I think Ms Patel went, did you not?