Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-22

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I would have heard about it because I would have attended that meeting if he was there.

MR BERGER: And even if you hadn't attended that meeting, somebody would have said to you;  by the Themba Khosa was here today, talking about the attacks on us, am I right?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct, you are right.

MR BERGER: But you never heard any such talk and you never saw or heard Themba Khosa?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You see, Mr Magubane, that again you are not telling the truth because your own co-applicants, Mr Victor Mthembu, has told us about that very meeting where Themba Khosa addressed the hostel residents.  You were at that meeting, I put it to you, you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be the meeting on Sunday?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I've already explained that if I attended that meeting, I would say so.  I know nothing about that meeting which was attended by Themba Khosa.  If there was a meeting on that Sunday, if I was present then Themba Khosa was not there.

MR BERGER: Well we know you were at the hostel for the whole day on that Sunday.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I will agree with you that I was at the hostel on that Sunday.

MR BERGER: The meeting that you attended about a week before the attack, what instruction was given at that meeting?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: We were told that we are going to attack but we were not told about the dates and we were not told about the place that we are going to attack.  So because we were angry, we wanted them to tell us, because those people who were attacking us, they never waited for a long time.  Whenever they catch you, they kill you at the same time, so we wanted to attack immediately.

MR BERGER: And when you talk about the people catching you, you're talking about the people from Boipatong catching you and killing you?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I'm referring to the members of the ANC in the Vaal Triangle, including Boipatong.

MR BERGER: When last, or let me ask you this, did you see Vanana Zulu in Boipatong on the night of the attack?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, I did not.

MR BERGER: When last did you see him before the attack?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: The last time I saw him was when he was leaving and was going home.

MR BERGER: Did  you see him leaving?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I did.

MR BERGER: And when was that, when was he going home?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I don't remember the day but if I'm not mistaken it was on a Friday because the transport used to collect them every Friday.

MR BERGER: Would that be the Friday before the attack?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that was before the attack.

MR BERGER: The attack was on a Wednesday, so would that have been the Friday just before that Wednesday?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I think that is the same Friday or a week before that Friday before the attack.

MR BERGER: If Prince Vanana Zulu had been in Boipatong on the night of the attack, you would have seen him, am I right?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct, we would have recognised him because he's a leader of the hostel, we all depend on him.

MR BERGER: What he says in the hostel, or what he said in the hostel was law, am I right?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That is correct, we followed everything that he said.

MR BERGER: When you got into Boipatong, is it correct that you - well, let me ask you this - never mind.   What happened to your gun, the one that you used in Boipatong?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: It was lost.

MR BERGER: Did the police get your gun?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Well I don't know whether they got hold of that gun because when I went to look for it, my weapon was not there.

MR BERGER: When did Prince Vanana Zulu return to the hostel?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: He came back after the Boipatong massacre.

MR BERGER: How long after?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: It could not be weeks but days after the massacre, it can be about four days, three to four days after the massacre.

MR BERGER: Did you tell him that you had participated in the massacre.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I did not.

MR BERGER: Did he know that the residents of KwaMadala were responsible for the massacre?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: He did not know, he only heard the rumour.

MR BERGER: Why did you not tell him, why did nobody tell him?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: He's a well respected person.  There are people who talk to me, not everybody.  We do sometimes talk to him but we cannot sit down with him and talk to him about issues because of he was a respected person.

MR BERGER: You say in your statement that Mr Themba Khosa did not know that you stole property from Boipatong.   Do you remember that he came to the hostel on the day after the attack, on the 18th?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, he came after the Boipatong massacre, but I don't remember whether it was a day after or two days after but he did come to the hostel.

MR BERGER: He asked - did he ask whether you were responsible for the massacre, "you" plural.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, he asked us about the attack and we said no.

MR BERGER: Why, why did you lie to Themba Khosa?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: We believed that you do agree, you don't confer, you don't agree to kill them.

MR BERGER: But Themba Khosa was your leader, why did you keep the truth from your leader?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: It is because he was not involved in what we did.

MR BERGER: Is it because you thought he would not have approved of what you did?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I think so.  I think maybe he will not agree to what we did and that is why we did not tell him what happened.

MR BERGER: You deny that any woman was raped in Boipatong on the night of the attack and you say that: "We would not do that".  Please tell me why, if you would shoot children and old people and women, it' not possible for any of the attackers to have raped some of the women of Boipatong?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: This ntelezi, when you use ntelezi you don't have to sleep with a woman immediately after you have used that ntelezi.

MR BERGER: Why not?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: You don't have to sleep with a woman after using ntelezi.

MR BERGER: Is that the law?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is the law, that after you use it, you should not sleep with a woman that day.

MR BERGER: But the law doesn't say that after you've used ntelezi you can't shoot children?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, the law doesn't say so.  The law doesn't say that I should kill children.  Anything that I want to do, I'll do it.

MR BERGER: Did you see Mr Thomas Mhlapo in Boipatong on the night of the attack?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I didn't see Thomas Mhlapo in Boipatong on that day.

MR BERGER: Do you know Thomas Mhlapo?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I do, he was my co-accused.

MR BERGER: And Velapi Nkosi?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I don't know Velapi Nkosi, maybe I know him by other names.

MR BERGER: You didn't know everybody staying in KwaMadala hostel, did you?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I knew all the people who were resident
at KwaMadala, but when you ask me about their real name, I would not know them.  I know them by nicknames, other names that we used to call each other.

MR BERGER: Do you know Ernest Ntombela?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I know the surname.  There is another one who was my co-accused, but I don't know whether he is Ernest, I only know the surname of Ntombela, unless you can give me one of his other names.

MR BERGER: Was Themba Mabote accidentally injured in Boipatong on the night of the attack?