Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-14

MR WILLIAMS: Okay.  Initially I understood that there is maybe one or two inaccuracies in your statement, but I see as we go along, there are quite a lot of your statements that appear to be inaccurate?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: It may be so, you can point out the others to me.

MR WILLIAMS: Further down, if you skip a sentence and read the next sentence
"... it was also told to us on course that in extremely sensitive situations, it would be brought to the attention of the State President."

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is how I understood it, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Was that said to you, did someone say that to you?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct.

MR WILLIAMS: Who told you that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: The Managing Director, Joe Verster.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay.  Let's get to the actual Kewtown incident.  You say that over a period of one month, you collected information from Isgak, is that correct?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Did Isgak provide you with the information over a period of time, in other words did he give the information to you in drips and drabs, today maybe one statement,  tomorrow another statement, or how exactly, can you just clarify that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is how it took place, on that basis.  You have to recall that I was in Johannesburg, although I was appointed to the Cape, I was not in the Cape every day.  I irregularly flew down to perform my duties here, so it was not given to me all in one go.

MR WILLIAMS: And you made a note of all the allegations he made to you pertaining to the Kewtown Youth?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I took a note thereof in so far as I read through the information, looked at it and processed it through to the Co-ordinator.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you know more or less how many documents he gave to you?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot recall, but it was not only one or two documents, it was more than that.

MR WILLIAMS: You say on one of the documents, Mr Chris Ferndale or one of the documents state that Chris Ferndale is responsible for the planting of bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: One was a letter written by him in which certain things were said, I think it is on page 49.

MR WILLIAMS: Yes, I am going to deal with the letter now, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: But one of the statements is that you are in possession of a typed letter or statement to the effect that Chris Ferndale admitted that he was responsible?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: My evidence was that we had available to us a letter, I cannot remember whether it was written or typed, which allegedly had been written by Ferndale or signed by Ferndale in which he admits his partipance in bomb attacks, or planned attacks, something to that affect.  But it dealt with acts of terror.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you recall to whom was that letter addressed?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Was it addressed to someone?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I cannot recall.

MR WILLIAMS: Was it just a piece of paper wherein Chris Ferndale says that "I am responsible for bombs and more bombs are going to go off"?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.  If my memory does not fail me, it was not an admission that he wrote down there, it was part of the planning, I cannot recall what the exact extent was, whether it was addressed to a person, or whether it was just a summary of acts that they were planning, or whether it was a summary of acts that they were already responsible for, but it was, it entailed incriminating evidence with regard to the planning of acts of terror, or acts of terror that had already been committed.

MR WILLIAMS: Which in your opinion would have been a very important document, not so?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR WILLIAMS: The way I understand your earlier testimony is that his name actually appeared on the document, is that so?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR WILLIAMS: Now do you agree with me that it would be utterly stupid for anyone to write his name on a document, which has the affect, or which basically says that that person is responsible for the planting of bombs?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes.  That is so.

MR WILLIAMS: I doubt very much whether such a letter existed.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: My evidence about it is given.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr van Zyl, I also want to ask you about a letter addressed to Mr Alex Anthony.  Do you clearly remember what was inside that letter, the contents of the letter?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No.

MR WILLIAMS: Maybe I am going to surprise you, but I will be honest and I will tell you that I wrote the letter to Mr Alex Anthony on the request of Isgak Hardien?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I do not know about that.

MR WILLIAMS: Gakkie was about to work for Mr Anthony during the elections, if I remember correctly, he was going to be paid for it as well?  At some time, prior to the elections, he told me that he had changed his mind about it, but that he cannot read and write, but that he wanted Mr Anthony to know that he is no longer interested to work for him and he asked me if I can write the letter on his behalf simply stating that he is not prepared to work for him.  That is what that letter was all about.

MR MARTINI: Mr Chairman, may I state at this stage, the statement doesn't appear to be a statement by Counsel to the witness, but rather evidence that is being introduced from the Bar.  If Mr Williams is going to take the witness stand and be cross-examined in due course, then I have no objection that he puts this to the witness.  If however he has no intention of going to give evidence under oath, then I object to introducing evidence in this manner.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we cannot have evidence introduced in this fashion, it wouldn't be fair procedure.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay, Mr Chairperson, can I ask that we deal with the letter on that basis, that that was the contents of the letter?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, are we sure we are talking about the same letter?  I mean is it the same letter that is under consideration here, I think that is the first thing to establish?

MR WILLIAMS: Maybe that will come out once Isgak testifies.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I have forgotten, you can refresh my memory.  I remember the name Alex Anthony, but I don't remember that anything being mentioned about the contents of the letter addressed to him.
	Okay, so it was similar, that he shouldn't participate in the elections.  My colleague, Mr Lax, has just reminded me.  But you may proceed, but not to introduce evidence, Mr Williams.

MR WESSELS: Chairperson, I support what my colleague has put on the record.

MR WILLIAMS: I accept Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I know it will be difficult for you not to do it, but you must, when questioning Mr van Zyl now, put on your lawyer's cap and ...

MR WILLIAMS: Okay, I will try and rephrase it.  Mr van Zyl, if Gakkie gave you a letter to the effect that, a letter which simply stated that he is no longer prepared to work for Mr Anthony and that that, if that was the contents of the letter, would you dispute it?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I would because it would have been of no value.

MR WILLIAMS: Okay, I won't take that any further.  But I want to ask you, he made various allegations to you, were those allegations tested according to your knowledge?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I accept that it was tested because it was sent through to the intelligence structures and it was their function to do so.  Because of this, I received instructions, as I have already testified, to do a pre-study, so in the light thereof, I would accept that it was tested.

MR WILLIAMS: Do you know for a fact whether or not that information was sent through to the intelligence wing?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I have already given evidence about that, I gave it to the Co-ordinator on the understanding that he would process it.  That is his work, and I think you  have to ask him that question.  I cannot tell you for a fact that ...

MR WILLIAMS: So, if I understand your testimony, you don't know whether the information was in fact sent onwards, to be verified?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Correct.