Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-24

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, at that stage being involved in a couple of other incidents, I think these people what I see now is not what they did, it is what I say now.  I see these people were very secretive about it for one good reason, we had so many elements inside the AWB, inside the "Boervolk" that was back-stabbers.
	One of these people in front here, the attorney asked me earlier on how do I see it and that is how it is.  So they were secretive because of so many elements inside of us that were back stabbers, hey, people made money out of this selling information. 
	So I think these people were okay stupid in planting bombs but also clever enough not to get back-stabbed before the time. That is why it was so secretive.  That is my motivation of it.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask you this then, you seem to insist that Terreblanche must have known about all ...[intervention]

UNKNOWN: He had to yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the other possibility that he didn't know it and it was in fact a splinter group, do you discount that?

UNKNOWN: In my small brain capacity as a little Captain in the Ystergarde no way he had to know, he had to know because the elements and the people right around him, the Generals staff, I mean him and Barnard is like brothers, wherever he goes Barnard is there.  They have done so many things on their own that I cannot even explain to you what they did.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you include the Generals staff then also must have known about all these things?

UNKNOWN: Yes of course.  The way I see it Generals staff as in total all the other Generals, alright there might be a couple of Generals that did not know about it but the Generals who was involved at those certain meetings at Ventersdorp, at that Trim Park, on the "skietbaan" and on the "wildplaas", those Generals including Ackerman, Cruywagen, Smit, General Terreblanche himself, ET's brother and Nico Prinsloo. I mean that was the main frame of the General staff, those were the main peanuts in the packet and they had to know about it, they had to know about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Very interesting example.

UNKNOWN: That is how I see it Sir, that is how I see it.

CHAIRPERSON: But why couldn't - I am just investigating I am not saying that you are wrong or right.

UNKNOWN: No, I am not wrong Sir. I am definitely right.

CHAIRPERSON: You are drawing your conclusions which may be correct.

UNKNOWN: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I am just investigating other alternatives, why could it not be that those Generals whom you refer to, why could they not be the splinter group?

UNKNOWN: Without Terreblanche's knowledge? No ways Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

UNKNOWN: Then he was part of the splinter group as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you insist that he would have had knowledge of that?

UNKNOWN: As I said they were the main peanuts in the packet, they knew exactly what he knew and he knew what they knew.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying their relationship was so close that they could not be separated?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was his relationship with his brother who was also a General, close?

UNKNOWN: Close yes, very close.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Some days ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: There is no way that Mr Terreblanche the General would keep secrets from his brother the leader?

UNKNOWN: There I must just correct myself.  General Terreblanche although he was a bigger brother between him and Terreblanche, sometimes I think the AWB would have gone much further if he was the leader because he had the heart for it, he had the, I mean his heart was like, he is a good "ou".  Some things were sometimes in a very big fighting mood between them, amongst them. Because ET did things that General Terreblanche didn't agree with, so I cannot say he knew about the bombs ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Does ...(indistinct)

UNKNOWN: Maybe Terreblanche kept it from him but I think they knew.

CHAIRPERSON: It increases the possibilities that Terreblanche senior may very well have been part of a splinter group acting without the knowledge of the leader, is that not so?

UNKNOWN: Sir, I wouldn't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Given that they had disagreements also.

UNKNOWN: Yes, then I will say yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you concede that as a possibility?  I am not saying it is so.

UNKNOWN: As a possibility yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you attend the meeting at Trim Park Mr Venter?

UNKNOWN: No, Ma'am.

ADV BOSMAN: But there was evidence yesterday that at the Trim Park  ET as you call him said that all this war talk must first be sort of investigated, people should go back to their commanders and enquire whether they are in fact ready for war.  Is it not possible that there from that could have come a split between Mr Terreblanche and his Generals who were all hyped up and psyched up to fight?  I am just asking your opinion, obviously you can't say whether this was so.

UNKNOWN: Okay, if I can correct my opinion that side. If I say the way I saw it, it was not said: "Go and find out if your people are ready", "go and make them ready, get them ready, let them get medical supplies, let them get their arms, their ammunition, let them be at a readiness level for this order that is supposed to come".   I didn't see it as go and find out, I saw it as: "Get the people ready for that what was coming".

CHAIRPERSON: You see that enquiry in terms of the evidence that we have heard, was a direct result of a call to war by one of the Generals.  And then according to the evidence Mr Terreblanche said: "Hokaai, let us find out if our people really want war or are prepared for war".

UNKNOWN: Okay there I cannot say what happened there Sir.  What I can say is I got the feedback on my farm where I was told these were the decisions made in Ventersdorp so you must prepare yourself for whatever is on its way, and I did my preparation.

CHAIRPERSON: Which message, which information may have been incorrect that you received, although you believed it?

UNKNOWN: Yes it might be.

MR MALAN: May I just follow up on this splinter group which might have been lead by the General Terreblanche as a scenario or possibility. You said if I heard you correctly that the General was a good "ou" and he had a heart like this and you made a gesture. Are you saying that compared to the leader he is a softy or a toughie?

UNKNOWN: No, no, no I didn't say he was a softie. I said ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Or more caring or?

UNKNOWN: More caring.

MR MALAN: More human?

UNKNOWN: Much more so.

MR MALAN: Now if that is so would it be likely that he would lead a splinter group that would take harsher decisions than the leader would approve of because that is how I understood you initially and I want to make sure what the frame is.

UNKNOWN: No, General Terreblanche himself won't lead a splinter group like that, he would not even suggest it.

MR MALAN: He would rather be a check on his brother than sort of fire under ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: The aggressor yeah.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you. Did you mean then that his brother would have gone further than?

UNKNOWN: No, he would have been a better leader that is why I say because his got the heart for it. He would look after his people. He won't drop them in the deep side and turn around and walk away.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.

ADV GCABASHE: Just to round that off. But if you compared the two brothers the one more likely to get cold feet would be junior, ET not senior the General?

UNKNOWN: In your words yes Ma'am.

ADV GCABASHE: Are you agreeing with that?

UNKNOWN: Correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR MALAN: Please explain what do you meaning with getting cold feet?  I am now confused because I get two messages please.