Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not switched on)

MR DONAN: I can ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Will you show it to him because it might go in by consent.

MR DONAN: I apologise, I did not anticipate the cross-examination on recent fabrication.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other questions you wish to put to him?

MR DONAN: Yes there is.  This one would be relevant to the necessity of torture.  Mr Pedro according to this instruction that my learned friend is looking at, you were arrested on the 15th of August 1987.

MR PEDRO: That's correct, yes.

MR DONAN: That was a Saturday.

MR PEDRO: That was Saturday, yes.

MR DONAN: The evidence has been that the Ashley Forbes cell had a rendezvous system that if someone didn't, if a member didn't pitch up at a rendezvous, or communicate at a particular time the rest of the cell would be warned that there was a problem and they would disappear, were you aware of this?

MR PEDRO: Yes, that's correct, yes.

MR DONAN: At the time that you were arrested on the 15th of August where were you going?

MR PEDRO: I was on my way to Lesotho.

MR DONAN: So you were leaving the country?

MR PEDRO: That's right.

MR DONAN: Were you brought directly to Mr Liebenberg for interrogation or did you stop anywhere?

MR PEDRO: No I was first interrogated by the Security Police in Aliwal North, first at the border post and then from there they took me to Aliwal North.

MR DONAN: So how long was it before you got to Mr Benzien?

MR PEDRO: I was arrested the Saturday morning, we left that evening, so the Sunday morning I arrived here in Cape Town.

MR DONAN: And was it then that you were interrogated by Mr Benzien?

MR PEDRO: Ja when they took me to Culemborg.  If I remember correctly they made arrangements with I think it was Nel and we met in Bellville, and then from Bellville they took me to Culemborg and that is where I met Benzien.

MR DONAN: Thank you Mr Pedro.  Thank you Judge.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DONAN

CHAIRPERSON: How old are you Mr Pedro?

MR PEDRO: I am 30 years old now.

CHAIRPERSON: What education have you had?

MR PEDRO: I studied at University and I still need to complete my B.Comm, I still owe two modules to complete my B.Comm degree.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR PEDRO: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR LE GRANGE: Mr Chairperson just before the witness leaves the stand, as you know I appear for Mr Liebenberg in his application.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LE GRANGE: His name was mentioned to certain extent by this witness, I did not deem it necessary to officially enter the fray by cross-examining him but I would like to have the opportunity just to ask him a very brief question.

CHAIRPERSON: Do sit down.

MR LE GRANGE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LE GRANGE: Mr Pedro you've mentioned in cross-examination and in-chief to first of all Mr Donan, and then by Mr Cook, that when you arrived at Culemborg there were other Security Policemen there but you chiefly concentrated, I think, on Mr Benzien and Mr Nortje as the persons who you identified, is that correct?

MR PEDRO: That's correct, yes.

MR LE GRANGE: No in passing you did mention initially that you seemed to recall that you saw Mr Liebenberg at that meeting as well.  Now my instructions are that Mr Liebenberg was not in town, he was out of town when you were arrested and he only heard of your arrest quite some time after you were arrested.  Will you dispute that or will you agree that that's a possibility?

MR PEDRO: No from what I can recall he was amongst those people.

MR LE GRANGE: He will say that he was not there, he only heard about it later.  He was not at the initial meeting with the other policemen.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now listen carefully, the initial meeting, the first time that you saw these people are you sure that you saw Liebenberg at that time or at some other time during the interrogation and during your detention, is it possible that you may have seen him some other time?

MR PEDRO: It is possible, yes.  In fact if I can just maybe add when during lunchtime I read through some of the statements those Security policemen's names that was mentioned, all of them there, there were some of them that I had to ask some of my people who was this one again and who was this one, because I mean mainly Benzien and Nortje were the people that were with me and I wasn't so much exposed to the others.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LE GRANGE

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR DONAN: Thank you Judge.

CHAIRPERSON: Anybody else?

MR DONAN: I don't have a ruling on the document and I propose if the Committee is not inclined to make a ruling right away ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well you just hand it in to us, thank you.  Just tell me the purpose for which you would like this document to go in.

MR DONAN: The purpose Judge Mall is to rebut the allegations made by my learned friend acting for Mr Benzien, the object of the allegations was to show that Mr Pedro had been lying and that he had made up a story, his present story, contradicting what I had put to Mr Benzien on the previous occasion.  I've handed in the document from which I read on the previous occasion in order to rebut any suggestions in argument that, or any reliance on the contradiction between what I put to the witness and what Mr Pedro has said today.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Donan sorry, I don't understand you.  About the plastic gloves, do you say you neglected to put it to the witness, you had the instructions or do you say you didn't have the instructions about the plastic gloves?

MR DONAN: If Advocate de Jager reads, unfortunately there is only one copy, I have just read it, I don't see any reference to plastic gloves.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes ...(intervention)

MR DONAN: So I am not dealing with the plastic gloves, I am dealing with contradictions between what I've put ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Now wasn't that the point made that he didn't mention it to you and he's now mentioning it for the first time on giving evidence?

MR DONAN: Well if that is the point made there is nothing I can do further except perhaps to try and find the record where I originally I cross-examined Mr Benzien which might be another way of rebutting this particular ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: No I don't think there's - I don't think it's necessary to - I only want to have clarity on this.

MR DONAN: There were other allegations like the first person you saw was Mr Benzien, well it does say in the document those words were specifically used.

CHAIRPERSON: For what it is worth we will allow this document and we will consider its value when we are evaluating the evidence as a whole.

MR DONAN: As the Committee pleases.  While we are on the subject of what documents are worth and their ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Why were these not dealt with at the pre-trial conference?

MR DONAN: Because there was a privilege attached to - sorry, the new documents or the last document?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You know when these - I understand there was a pre-trial procedure that was held, why were these documents not handed in at that stage?

MR DONAN: The ones that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That you want to hand in now.

MR DONAN: Because to tell the truth it never entered my head.  Is the Committee aware of the nature of the document?

CHAIRPERSON: No I ...(intervention)

MR DONAN: Well perhaps I should describe what they are.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.