Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-20

UNKNOWN: The inspection of firearms is different.  You might do an inspection and not record it, but when they load and unload it is a different inspection, it is not recorded.
	There might be an inspection once or twice a month, the physical inspection.

ADV MEMANI: ... in the occurrence book?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV MEMANI: And from the books that you have given us that stretch over a period of approximately 18 months, there is no entry that those firearms were inspected, or that you issued a firearm to Ngo?

MR DU PLESSIS: Well, Mr Chairman, I don't want to object every time, but my learned friend referred just before lunch to a specific entry in respect of which Captain Khoja issued a firearm to Mr Ngo.
	So if my learned friend just asks the question on the basis of the facts, it would make it easier for everybody.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.  Mr Khoja, there is no entry that at the beginning of 1987 right up to 1988, you issued a firearm to Mr Ngo.

UNKNOWN: It is there.  I already told you that we do not use guns often at the barracks.  We only use guns at a certain time when we realise that there are people that want to trouble us.
	But just ordinarily we do not carry guns.

ADV MEMANI: You issued a firearm to Mr Ngo and there is no entry that you inspected the firearm.

UNKNOWN: I look at the gun, because the gun was in the safe, I will look at the gun and check how many bullets are in the gun.

ADV MEMANI: It is obvious that I am referring to subsequent inspections, not the inspection you carried as you were handing the firearm to him.

UNKNOWN: Are you referring to inspections made by Inspectors?

ADV MEMANI: Twice a month at parade?

UNKNOWN: That inspection will be conducted by an Inspector.  The inspection that I do, I told you that there are different inspections.  The inspection that you are referring to is done by the Inspectorate, not by me.

ADV MEMANI: What are you referring to, earlier on I spoke to you and I put it to you that when a policeman is being issued with a firearm, that firearm is inspected by a supervising officer regularly and you said yes.
	You then added that that is not done daily, it is done at parade once or twice a month.  That is what I am referring to now.  I am saying that you were Ngo's supervising officer, you never at any stage inspected a firearm issued to Ngo.

UNKNOWN: I would inspect this gun time and again because it is kept with me.  But even before I give him the gun, I will check the gun and then pass it on to him.

ADV MEMANI: But you told us that the fact of inspection of a firearm is recorded in an occurrence book?

UNKNOWN: When I conduct a parade for the police, I would write it even at the SAP book where I record the property and I will indicate that I took charge and I inspected all the properties of the SAP.
	Then we issue out a card and it will indicate that there was an inspection conducted.

ADV MEMANI: You said earlier on, it was your evidence that that fact is recorded in an occurrence book?

UNKNOWN: I don't understand what you want me to say.

ADV MEMANI: Now, Mr Ngo instructs me that the reason why there is no record that his firearm was inspected at any stage, or that a firearm was issued to him, in the beginning of his career at Unit 19, is that he was issued with a firearm by Unit 19 and the people who were responsible for that firearm were based at Unit 19 and you are not responsible for that firearm.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Memani, would it be just to clear it up, is it your case or your evidence that Ngo had a weapon when he arrived at Mamelodi, at the barracks?  If so, can you tell me was he issued with a second weapon and why was the other one given back, what is the position?  Can you kindly explain it why he should have been issued with a second weapon if he had one before?
	Mr Ngo didn't give evidence about it, so we don't know what is your client's version about it.

ADV MEMANI: My instructions, Mr Chair, is that Mr Ngo had a firearm at all times, that that firearm is not reflected in the Mamelodi barracks book, because it was not within Khoja's domain but it was within the domain of Unit 19 but at all times he carried a firearm.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, we've got a firearm recorded in the occurrence book, so that would be a second firearm?

ADV MEMANI: That is correct Mr Chairman.  And I will deal with that in due course.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I just make a point here.  On page 118, of the occurrence book, 3 May 1988, number 12 and that is an entry that my Attorney has picked up now, only because started looking for it now, it states there, number 12, inspection single quarters by A.O. Khoja and Constable Ngo, firearm box in order, kitchen and sleeping quarters in order.

CHAIRPERSON: That appears in entry after entry after entry, the firearm box, not the firearm, it is the firearm box that is in order.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, I am not sure if it indicates firearm and box or if it indicates ...

ADV MEMANI: My Lord, my learned friend is not testifying and he must wait for re-examination if he wants to raise these issues.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, if it is correct that my learned friend has put something to the witness that there isn't any entry about inspection of a gun, and there is an entry that indicates, there may possibly have been an inspection of a gun, My Lord, it is important that I ...

ADV MEMANI: You are entitled to raise that during re-examination.

MR DU PLESSIS: No, My Lord, if my learned friend is putting something that is not true, then I must raise it so that the Committee take note of it, otherwise my learned friend is cross-examining on wrong facts.
	My Lord, I can refer you furthermore to number 39 on page 120, that is 7 May, 121, 7 May 1988, there it says again single quarters visited by Warrant Officer, the following was inspected and found in order, the kitchen and the vicinity thereof, sleeping quarters.

ADV MEMANI: My Lord, (indistinct) journal that is kept at the police station, it is an officer's firearm.

MR DU PLESSIS: Number 42 on the next page, there it refers again inspection single quarters by Warrant Officer Khoja and Ngo.  The following were inspected and found to be in order, firearm, kitchen, sleeping quarters and they were found in order.
	So there are entries in the occurrence book referring to an inspection of a firearm.  That goes on almost as far as we ...

CHAIRPERSON: One, two, three and number 56 we got back to firearm boxes?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, My Lord, the only point I am making is if my learned friend says that there are no entries in the occurrence book referring to an inspection of a firearm, he is wrong.  That is the point I am trying to make.  It may be that those other entries refer to firearm boxes, but some of them don't refer to the box, so I am not sure in those instances if it is a firearm box or a firearm in a box.
	I have never heard of a firearm box My Lord, I don't ...

ADV MEMANI: My Lord, arms in a police station are kept in a big trunk, those are references to that big trunk, they are not references to arms issued to a particular officer, particular policeman.

ADV DE JAGER: Now, we've been pointed out that there is also references to a firearm and not to a big trunk.  Only the firearm.

ADV MEMANI: That clearly is an error My Lord.  First of all the witness himself has said that he never records these things in an occurrence book, he records them in a SAP15.

MR DU PLESSIS: No Mr Chairman, he ...

ADV MEMANI: That is a contradiction which he made and I brought it to his attention that he had said that it is supposed to be recorded in an OB, so this can't be correct.
	Hence I say there are not witnesses.