Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: .

UNKNOWN: Just to make a follow up Mr Luthuli, I still do not understand.  I think what Mr Mpshe wants to know is what political gain would your organisation derive from that kind of activity?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It would actually be to show the strength of Inkatha.  Nobody would do as they please to the IFP member without Inkatha answering to it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe.  Mr Stuart, do you have any re-examination?

MR STUART: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Luthuli, upon being released from Robben Island, in that period between your release in 1979 and your going to the Caprivi, were you employed at all?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, I was not employed.

MR STUART: I am now turning to the incident of the Glover remark which is, I don't have the page number, I think it is 263.

MR MOTATA: Page 247.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 247.

MR STUART: Mr Luthuli, in reply to questions by my learned friend, Mr Hewit, you said that that incident took place at night, is that right?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR STUART: And you weren't sure how many people were there because it was at night?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is correct.

MR STUART: When you heard that remark, could you identify who it was that made the remark?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would say this remark was usually used by UDF members, referring to an Inkatha member.

MR STUART: To clarify Mr Luthuli, could you identify the individual, do you know which actual individual person made the remark?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.  You could not have identified the person.

MR STUART: At that time, did Mr Yamile have a position in the KwaZulu government to your knowledge?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, he was an MP.

MR STUART: If you go to page 236, if I might take you one page before that, page 235, a particular sentence has been focused on earlier today, which reads right at the bottom of that page, in addition to this, I eventually became opposed to reporting on all operations to the Planning Committee, because I knew that they in turn reported to the Central Government.
	Then at the top of the next page you go on to say, I discussed this with M.Z. Khumalo and he agreed with me, although he maintained his contact with the Central Government and his reliance on military intelligence.  Do you stand by that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR STUART: After that time, did you continue to discuss, plan and report with M.Z. Khumalo?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR STUART: And are there incidents in these papers where you discussed the operations before they took place, with M.Z. Khumalo?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR STUART: And did those incidents take place after this time you are talking about here on page 236?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR STUART: You explained in answer to some questions from the member of the Committee, Ms Khampepe, that the Caprivi trainees were all over the province, in various places?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR STUART: Did you have a method of communicating with them, wherever they were?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I did not have a specific way except going to them, or someone would perhaps see me at a rally or at the Inkatha offices.

MR STUART: Did you have any instant method of communication such as radio's or telephones or something like that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, we did not.

MR STUART: In answer to a question by Mr Mpshe, you agreed that attacks on areas to clear areas, you explained that sometimes, areas had to be cleared of people because maybe some UDF were there, so the whole area would be cleared and you agreed that such actions were criminal.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR STUART: Was there a political objective to such actions?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, there were political objectives because they wanted to control those areas.

MR STUART: I don't understand properly, can you elaborate.  Who wanted to control what areas?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I will give you a small example of an incident in Maritzburg, where Ntombela and the Chiefs there, attacked places where UDF members resided.
	Because these people were not Inkatha members in a place belonging to the Inkatha Chief, therefore they had to move from the area.  The only way of moving them away from the area, was by attacking them.  I am just giving you one example.

MR STUART: Mr Luthuli, Mr Mpshe sought to draw a distinction between an attack for retaliatory purposes and an attack for revenge purposes.  Do you understand a distinction between those two, retaliation and revenge?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I can say for example myself, if my brother had been killed, I would say that is revenge.  But if a member of the organisation is killed, and go to retaliate, I do not take that as revenge, because I am not related to the person, but we are only associated because of the same political views.
	That is how I can differentiate the two words.

MR STUART: Was Walter Mtalani a member of a certain organisation?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: He was an IFP member.

MR STUART: And you have said here in your papers, that his sister was attacked?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR STUART: And as a consequence of which, you planned an attack?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is correct.

MR STUART: Did that attack have a political objective?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I would say because Mtalani and his sister were IFP members, and they were being killed by UDF members, I perceived the whole thing as retaliation on behalf of the organisation.

MR STUART: I have no further re-examination Mr Chairman.

MR STUART: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Stuart.  Mr Moloi, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR MOLOI: Thank you Mr Chairman, just one aspect.  On page 246 of the bundle, you refer to an incident where you reprimanded certain members of your squad, shall I call it, that is Khumalo and Molefi, for firing at the vehicle they believed Mrs Tsabalala was in.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOLOI: And the reason you advance for that reprimand is they had not ascertained whether or not Mrs Tsabalala was in fact in the vehicle?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOLOI: Why was it of concern to you at the time, whether or not Mrs Tsabalala was in the vehicle?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It is because the person that was wanted, was Mrs Tsabalala herself.  By shooting a car, not knowing whether she was inside it or not, was just an indication that there were people who were after her life and because of that, that would give her an opportunity to defend or save herself.

MR MOLOI: It was not your concern then that innocent people could be killed in the process?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOLOI: Was that then in line with the policy of the organisation for which you fought, that you should be concerned about innocent life getting involved in your attacks?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: There was no time where the organisation indicated that, except in training that was obtained at the Caprivi that if a person was being hunted, it must be made a point that only that person was found.

MR MOLOI: And subsequent to that, did you have a free hand now to kill, maim and assassinate any person, irrespective of whether he is targeted or not?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, that was not the case.

MR MOLOI: Hence your concern about innocent people, was that hence the concern you expressed about innocent people being involved in this particular instance?