Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:  Well, regarding the knife, I don't have the true evidence because I know everybody had his own knife.  I don't know exactly what happened.

MR DE JAGER: No, but your knife stuck after you stabbed.

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR DE JAGER: So you couldn't get it out of the body, is that correct?

WITNESS:   Yes it is true, I couldn't take it out.

MR DE JAGER: Did you then take Almond's knife to proceed with the stabbing, or what did you do?

WITNESS:   No.  Almond - the late was the one who took off the knife from the body, and

MR DE JAGER: /he was

MR DE JAGER: he was trying to stab Almond, and Almond then ducked.  That is why he went to the place where the spanner was.

MR DE JAGER: I want you to listen carefully, and if you can't follow what I am asking please tell me.  When you - are you still listening, or have they finished?   When your knife remained in the deceased's body did you take the dagger from Almond?

WITNESS:   I don't remember doing that.

MR DE JAGER: You've heard his evidence here.  He told us that you did do that.

WITNESS:   Yes, I heard the evidence.

MR DE JAGER: And he said after you've taken the dagger from him he went and fetched the wheel spanner.

WITNESS:   Yes, I heard that.

MR DE JAGER: Did you see him taking the wheel spanner from the car?

WITNESS:   Yes, I know, I am quite aware of that.

MR DE JAGER: Was a wheel spanner taken from the deceased's car or from your bakkie?

WITNESS:   Well, without telling a lie I can just say I am not very clear what happened then.

UNKNOWN: Mr Tshikalanga, when did you get to Durban in November?  Can you approximate the date thereof?  Was it the first week of November, the second week of November?

WITNESS:   I did not hear the question.

UNKNOWN: When did you arrive in Durban in November?  Was it on the first week of November 1981, the second week of November 1981?  I want you to approximate for me.

WITNESS:   I am afraid of telling the lies.  I am not aware, I cannot remember.

UNKNOWN: How soon before Mr Mxenge was killed, which is on the 19th?  Let me say how long had you been in Durban from the 19th of November 1981?  Had you been there for two days, had you been there ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: After the death?
/MS KHAMPEPE
//772

UNKNOWN: Before.  Before the 19th of November.

WITNESS:  I just guessing at the moment because I have said that I am not sure.  I think it was during - it was after four days, four days or three days, which I am not guaranteeing that because I am saying I am not sure.

UNKNOWN: What was the purpose of your visiting Durban, Mr Tshikalanga?

WITNESS:   I mean we were not here to visit.  I mean of all the people who were in Vlakplaas all of them used to go to different places - Northern Transvaal, Eastern Transvaal, or whatever.  I was out being on duty.

UNKNOWN: And you were on duty at whose instructions?

WITNESS:   We were under Dirk Coetzee.

UNKNOWN: Did he instruct you to come to Durban from Vlakplaas?

WITNESS:   Because we used to be counted that these people are taking which direction, these people are taking this direction.  I was one of the people who was directed to come to Durban.

UNKNOWN: By Mr Coetzee?

WITNESS:   Yes.

UNKNOWN: Did he tell you what duties you would be performing in Durban?

WITNESS:   He did not tell us, but it was our daily routine to keep on moving to various directions with the askaris.

UNKNOWN: Now, you have stated in your evidence that you were apprised of the instructions to eliminate Mr Mxenge by Mr Nofomela and Mr Mamasela, is that correct?

WITNESS:   Yes, that is what I've said.

UNKNOWN: (Inaudible) ... Coetzee that there was a need to eliminate Mr Mxenge?

WITNESS:   I am not sure, but it might have happened where he told us that, but I am not sure.  But I think there's an incident in which he told us about the killing of Mxenge.

UNKNOWN: /(Inaudible)

UNKNOWN: (Inaudible) ... it have been before you had a discussion with Nofomela and Mamasela, or after, but there was such a discussion.

WITNESS:   May you please repeat your question?

UNKNOWN: You had been advised by Mr Coetzee of the need to eliminate Mr Mxenge before you had a discussion with Mr Nofomela or Mamasela.

WITNESS:   To tell you the truth this thing happened very quickly, to such an extent that I cannot give the true evidence of that, whether it came in which way, or whether - it was so fast that - the command used to be given - even like killing or poisoning the dogs I was not there.  It came to my attention on the day on which we were going to execute.

UNKNOWN: When did Mr Mamasela and Nofomela tell you that they had been ordered by Mr Coetzee to execute an order which was in the form of killing Mr Mxenge?  Was it on the 19th?

WITNESS:   I think I will tell the lies.  I don't know the date.

UNKNOWN: Mr Tshikalanga, that's when the murder was committed, on the 19th.  It should be easy now for you to recall whether you were told of Mr Coetzee's order to execute Mr Mxenge on the 19th, or whether it was prior to the 19th.  It would be something very easy to recall.

WITNESS:   Because you are explaining to me that the day of killing Mr Mxenge was on the 19th it is true that - what I cannot tell is this.  I do not know whether it was the 19th, but because you are telling me that it was on the 19th, the day on which he was killed, then it is true.

UNKNOWN: So you were told by Mr Nofomela and Mamasela on the 19th that you had to execute an order received from Mr Coetzee.

WITNESS:   May you please repeat your question.

UNKNOWN: /Were you

UNKNOWN: Were you advised by Mamasela and Nofomela of the need to kill Mr Mxenge the very day Mr Mxenge was killed?

WITNESS:   Yes, they took me somewhere and then they were talking about that while we were going to that place where we were going to look after him.

UNKNOWN: Did you then discuss that Mr Mxenge would be abducted and taken to the stadium?

WITNESS:   No, in that some of the things - but the way in which it happened and the way in which I explained in the beginning, it happened that when those men were out of the car, when going by Mr Mxenge's car, and with him, they are the people who know the direction in which we were going, but I was just told to follow them by using a bakkie.

UNKNOWN: (Inaudible) ... you must listen to the question and only respond to what you've been asked.  All I wanted to know is whether when you were told that Mr Mxenge had to be killed, and you had to participate in that murder, whether you were also told that he would be abducted and taken to the stadium, where he would be killed?

WITNESS:   Yes, it's true.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

WILSON J: When were you told that he was going to be killed?

WITNESS:   The same day in which they came and took me.

WILSON J: Was it while they were taking you to where you met him that they told you he was going to be killed?

WITNESS:   Yes.  When they came to took me, while we were on our way they told me that we are going to kill that man.

WILSON J: Was that the first time you had heard that you were going to kill him?

WITNESS:   Yes, it was for the first time.

WILSON J: Are you quite sure?  You're now telling me that you

WILSON J: /heard for

WILSON J: heard for the first time that you were going to kill Mr Griffiths Mxenge when you were on the way to do it.

WITNESS:   It was the first time to hear about him.

WILSON J: Where did you get the knife from?

WITNESS:   Those guys I was with them came with the knives, and they told me that the knives were coming from Dirk Coetzee.

WILSON J: Are you sure ... (inaudible)

WITNESS:   Yes, I am sure.

WILSON J: Did you at no stage say they came from somebody Schutte?

WITNESS:   May you repeat your question?

WILSON J: Did you at any stage say that the knives were provided by Schutte?