Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1996-07-04

UNKNOWN: I wonder if we could just pause there before we hear aboutChristopher. Just a few questions. You have told a very terrifying story, anda very sad one, but you have been very, very brave. (Pause) Are you okay? Justtake your time. (Pause) Can we continue now?

WITNESS: Yes, we can continue.

UNKNOWN: Thank you. Your son, Bokile, how old was he when he went toLesotho in 1978?

WITNESS: He was born in 1958.

UNKNOWN: So he was 20 years old. He was a young man. Was he very interestedin politics as a young man?

WITNESS: Yes, he was very interested in politics.

UNKNOWN: Okay. And you went to see him in Lesotho.

WITNESS: Yes, I went tolook for him in Lesotho and I found him there.

UNKNOWN: Did he go with his brother or did he go on his own?

WITNESS: Hewas together with other boys who were schooling together with him. They leftin a group.

UNKNOWN: And whilst he was in Lesotho he went to school and he got hismatric, is that right?

WITNESS: Yes, that's correct. He went to school and he passedhis matric. And I even asked him, "Who is paying for your school fees?" andhe said they are being subsidised by the interior.

UNKNOWN: Fine. And did you - were you in contact with him from time to time, either by telephone or letter or friends,in any way?

WITNESS: I personally went to Lesotho to visit him.

UNKNOWN: Thank you. Now, in 1986 is that when he came back to the country?--- When he came back in 1986 he wanted to see his brother in Lesotho, becausehe was now an MK member.

UNKNOWN: Which brother is that?

WITNESS: Christopher.

UNKNOWN: Thank you. Now, when your son Bokile - Bokkie, I think youcall him - when he came back to South Africa was he working underground or washe - what was he doing? Was he in touch with you?

WITNESS: He came to Lesotho asan MK member, and then he wanted to see his younger brother. When he was supposedto go back the Lesotho Government was overthrown by Leganya(?) and they couldn'tget into any international plane, so he had to come to South Africa so thathe can go back.

UNKNOWN: I see. And you got a message that your son, Bokkie, had beenkilled, and that started a very, very, very long journey from police stationto police station, from mortuary, Red Cross, hospital, houses, townships, alldesperately trying to find out what had happened. Is that right?

WITNESS: Yes, that'scorrect, because after receiving the news that he had died I went to the policestations and they didn't allow me to see him. I even went to Lesotho to findout whether had he been to Lesotho, and they said yes, he had been to Lesotho,but he is now back. And I said to them, "No, he is not back, he is now dead."They said, "No, we don't believe you."

UNKNOWN: And to this day you don't know where Bokkie was buried, buttell me a little bit more about the person who told you how he was killed by the Security Police. Who wasthat who told you that when you went to the house?

WITNESS: This house I got whenI asked another policeman as to where my son had been killed. This policemantold me it's Haramakari(?), and I must look for Mrs Matheho. I went there, Ilooked for the place until I got the place, and I got Mrs Theko. That is wherethey told me what had actually happened. That is Mrs Theko as well as her son.They told me how Bokkie had died, how come the police killed him. And when thepolice went there they told me Bokkie, my son, had a bag, a travelling bag.That bag contained ammunition as well as bullets. And when I saw this file thisfile was with Mr Motsabe. He is the one who showed me.

UNKNOWN: (Inaudible) ... at all?

WITNESS: No, I never saw the handbag, Ijust saw it in a photo.

UNKNOWN: (Inaudible) ... the Moroka Hospital because you heard thatyour son's body was there. Can you remember the name of the superintendent?--- Yes, I still remember, but Christopher, my son, can tell the name. I haveforgotten the name.

UNKNOWN: (Inaudible) ... that later. Thank you very much. Now, who isColonel Erasmus?

WITNESS: Colonel Erasmus is the person that Mr Motsabe got. OnlyMr Motsabe knows who Colonel Erasmus is.

UNKNOWN: (Inaudible) ... to help you to find the file, and at last atBethuli you saw the file, did you, on your son?

WITNESS: Yes ... (inaudible - endof Side B, Tape 1) ... so that Buckall may point where he put the file.

UNKNOWN: And did you get to see the file?

WITNESS: Yes, I did see the file.It was the second time I was seeing the file. I saw it when they were refusing to give it to me. Theyjust showed it to me when I was at the Thaba Nchu charge office. This file hadmy son's photos, as well as how the bomb had actually ripped his body apart,but I couldn't see the face. At some of the photos he was sleeping on his tummy.I couldn't see his face, I could only see his back. His body was destroyed savagely.

UNKNOWN: (Inaudible) ... more questions. You mentioned that there wasa post-mortem and there was also an inquest, but was that also in the file,so you haven't got copies of the findings of the post-mortem?

WITNESS: (Inaudible)... that file. There was this bag which they say had ammunition. There was alsowhere he fell, also where the bomb had exploded. It's just two or three photosinside that file that I saw.

UNKNOWN: (Inaudible) ... very much. You've given us quite a lot of clues,and the Commission is obviously going to try and contact the various policestations that you've mentioned to see if we can try and find out exactly whathappened, and very especially to try and find out where your son was buried,because I know that's very, very important for you and your family. But nowjust before - and you've been very brave, and I don't want to prolong this,but you did want to tell us, I think, about your second son, Christopher, whowas detained, and you said he was tortured. Could you tell us quite brieflywhat happened there.