Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-15

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) the question.  Earlier you told me that the witches were targeted on a political basis because they assisted those in government to retain their powers and govern Venda on behalf of Pretoria.  Now you tell me 'No, they were targeted and killed because they cast evil spells on you and that they were the real people who were torturing you.'  Now which one is the truth?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: What is true is what I'm explaining, namely the fact that when they were doing that, they were regarded as people who were cooperating with the government so that they should retain their power because whatever they were using, this medicine which was found in traditional healers and they were used in supernatural powers that they had.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct), are you telling us all these about being tortured and being victims of evil spells and all that?  I don't know if it was explained to you that this enquiry involves an enquiry into political motives for certain actions and whether you've made full disclosure.  Now, you must be very careful about what you tell us.  Because you've in fact given us two versions now, that's why I've asked you which is the truth.  And it's important for us to know on what political basis those witches were targets.  Do you understand?  If there was no political basis, then I'm afraid then you don't comply with the Act, do you follow?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed, yes, Mr Van Rensburg.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  If I understand your evidence then, you are saying that it was actually decided to kill those witches and to get rid of them for political motives, it was actually planned, it was part of your strategy?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: I'm not too sure whether you are actually giving me the timeframe or you saying since when it was planned.  Perhaps you could repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) if it was planned in the first place.

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: It happened - that was during the time of the release of Mr Mandela.  It was not planned beforehand, before the release of Mr Mandela.

CHAIRPERSON: We're not asking when, was it planned?  Why are we struggling, it's a simple question.  Was there a plan to kill the witches?  We're not asking when, was there a plan?  Was there a decision to kill witches or wizards?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Are you talking - with regard to the decision now, I can't say I'm too sure but all I know is that they had to be burned.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you don't know whether there decision (indistinct) to do so, all you know that they had to be burned?  Do I understand you correctly?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: That was quite from rumour.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear that there was such a decision or plan?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Yes, I heard about that.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) hear?  That the witches had to be burned?  Is that what you heard?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: That they should be burned or be removed from that community.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) the furthest we're going to get, Mr Van Rensburg.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Was there at any meeting that you attended a decision taken to burn, to kill the deceased because he was a witch?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: I didn't attend any meeting which decided on that regard.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, now that we have established that you at least heard that there was a plan to kill the witches and that formed part of the political strategy, I want to refer you to the Annexure A which was attached to your application.  And specifically paragraph three thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: Page number?

MR VAN RENSBURG: That is page number 88, Mr Chairman.  Paragraph three
"In the former Venda Bantu stance, the celebrations also occurred.  Unfortunately many youths didn't celebrate in an organised manner, they seized the opportunity to deal with the so-called witches.  These youths ran around the villages burning the old men and burning and also burning down their huts and houses.  What was peculiar about the whole incident was that the youths in the process of burning were singing and chanting songs and slogans of the African National Congress."
You see, my problem is if I understand your evidence to be at this stage, that it was strategy, it was planned, it was decided at some meetings that this is the way that you're going to go, is it not contradictory now to what is contained in paragraph three where the drift of the contents is that it was ...(tape ends )

CHAIRPERSON: Compared to?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Compared to his evidence today.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, isn't paragraph three of Annexure A a generalisation whereas his evidence is dealing specifically with the death of Edward where he says 'Look, when I was called to a meeting, by the time I went to the meeting the meeting was over and, I just joined this crowd who told me, or some people told me 'Look here, this is what is going to happen.''

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, but his evidence this morning, as we've just established, was that is was actually part of the political strategy that witches should be killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  It's not contradictory to Annexure A's paragraph three.  It just says that the opportunity was seized to deal with these so-called witches.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Be it by agreement or design or spontaneous, we're not too sure from that document.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Well, Mr Chairman, with respect, I think if you read paragraph three, there's actually no indication, and that is the point I'm trying make, there's no indication that it was organised, that it was planned.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, yes.  We agree on that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But it doesn't mean that it wasn't planned.  There's no indication that it was planned.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But it doesn't follow that it wasn't planned.  What I'm saying is you must find out from him what the position is about this Annexure A.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I'll do that.  If I can focus your attention then on paragraph three of Annexure A.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know who was the author of Annexure A?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: But I don't know who wrote this.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, Mr Van Rensburg, as it was pointed out to me now, Annexure A was completed in terms of a completely different act.  It was an application for indemnity, in terms of an act of 1992 which had different requirements and maybe, I'm not too sure what those requirements were but, perhaps those requirements didn't compel the Applicant to be as specific as this act in terms of which we sit here, wanted him to be.  I'm not too sure.  I'm just raising those problems in fairness to the Applicant.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I have to agree that that is definitely one view whilst on the other hand it is included in the bundle which forms part of the supporting documents for the amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but it wasn't included by the Applicant.  It was included by the Commission.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I understand.  I would rather then leave that point for argument.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Let's turn to page three, paragraph 12, I think the third page of Annexure A.  I read it to you, paragraph 12
"The young congress has started to be formed in most of the villages.  We at Mahvunga formed ours which was known as the Mahvunga Youth Congress and a serious conscientisation programme was embarked upon with assistance from other political organisations."

CHAIRPERSON: It should read 'conscientisation' I think.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I think it does read that, perhaps it's just my pronunciation that it was a bit...

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I want you to explain to us, firstly, were you a member of this Mavunga Youth Congress?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: I was not a member.