Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

ELSIE MOKOENA: She was together with me always.  During the week, at the week-ends, even at school.

MS THABETHE: Do you know Mr Skosana?

ELSIE MOKOENA: A lot.

MS THABETHE: How do you know him?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Can I briefly elaborate how it came about that I know Skosana?

MS THABETHE: Yes.

ELSIE MOKOENA: Skosana once arrived at home, it was at night.  He knocked at the door.  My granny opened the door for him, and he asked my granny where I was and where the boyfriend was, my boyfriend.  And the granny asked him where are you taking them to?  If you don't tell me the reason you want them I am not going to tell you where they were.  They were arguing and it came to a point where Skosana said to my granny, if you do not tell me where they are I will search for them myself in the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Just try and give your evidence in a pace that will enable us to write down what you are saying, and enable the interpreter to translate everything that you are saying.

ELSIE MOKOENA: Can I carry on?  He then said to my granny, if she was not telling him where we were he would search the house himself.  When he said he would search for himself, I was still listening.  I was in the bedroom.  I went out of the bedroom and got into the other and went out through the window and ran away.  I went to our neighbours and I spent the night there.  In the morning I went back home.  When I arrived my granny told me to leave.  She said we should leave for Hlombani's office to go and report this issue.  When we arrived at the office five comrades were released to come and sleep over at my place for protection.  That's how I knew Skosana.

CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned a name that I couldn't get.  How do you spell that name?

ELSIE MOKOENA: It's Hlombani.

CHAIRPERSON: As in Zulu?  Not Hlonwane?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Hlombani.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS THABETHE: Before I ask you about where Hlombani office was, did you know Mr Skosana to be a member of an ANC or a member of an SDU?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I knew Skosana as an ANC, as I heard it from people.

CHAIRPERSON: And what portfolio did Mr Hlombani occupy within the ANC?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I think he was the chairperson, if I'm not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: Of the ANC branch, or the ANC youth league?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I do not know, but I knew him to be the senior.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and where were his offices located, in Zone 12?

ELSIE MOKOENA: There was a garage in his yard in Zone 12 that was his office.

CHAIRPERSON: And when did this incident of Skosana coming to knock at your house occur?  Can you remember the month and the year?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes, I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, when was that.

ELSIE MOKOENA: It was in 1992, in June.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You may proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  Why did you go and report him to Hlombani office?

ELSIE MOKOENA: We were going to ask them to protect us.

MS THABETHE: Can you explain to the Committee what was Hlombani office, was it an ANC office, was it a community office, what was it?

ELSIE MOKOENA: It was an office.  When we were going to Hlombani's place we said we were going to an ANC office.

MS THABETHE: So, are you saying that the comrades that they sent to your house were ANC?  You say they were ANC supporters or members?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I know them to be members.

MS THABETHE: After the attack by Mr Skosana, or after the visit by Mr Skosana, did you ever find out why he wanted you and your boyfriend?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I did not.

MS THABETHE: Can you tell this Committee Member, the Committee Members about who your boyfriend was?

ELSIE MOKOENA: My boyfriend was Johannes Msimi.

MS THABETHE: Why would you think Skosana wanted him and you?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I do not know.

MS THABETHE: Was Hapile Ndumo every involved in the Boipatong ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you leave this matter Ms Thabethe, was your boyfriend a member of the ANC?

ELSIE MOKOENA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a member of the IFP?

ELSIE MOKOENA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge was he perceived to be associated with the IFP?

ELSIE MOKOENA: No, I have never come across such a problem regarding him.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a policeman?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And where was he stationed?  In Sebokeng?

ELSIE MOKOENA: He was stationed at De Deur.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a uniformed policeman?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Would he visit you in his uniform at your home?

ELSIE MOKOENA: He stayed with me at home.  When he left for work he left in uniform.

CHAIRPERSON: And for how long had you been staying with him prior to the 15th of August 1993?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I stayed with him from 1991 until 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabethe, you may proceed.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  According to the evidence of the applicants the policemen in the township were perceived to be associated with the IFP.  Didn't your boyfriend as a policeman fall into that category?

ELSIE MOKOENA: No, he didn't fall in that category.

MS THABETHE: Why do you say so?

ELSIE MOKOENA: It's because he lived in the township, and I had never seen comrades coming home accusing him of being a policeman and that policemen were not wanted in the township.  He lived like anybody else in the township.

MS THABETHE: To you knowledge, was Hapile ever involved in Boipatong massacre?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Hapile ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe why don't you confine that question to her?

MS THABETHE: Sorry Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Why don't you find out about her own involvement in Boipatong massacre?

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair it's because, according to the applicants' evidence, Hapile was involved in Boipatong massacre and I had said to them I've got instructions that she was not.

CHAIRPERSON: The evidence was that she also was involved in the Boipatong massacre.  She has not been excluded in that activity, and that's why they both were targeted.  Isn't that the evidence that's before us?  It's not only Ms Ndumo, it's Ms Ndumo and Ms Mokoena, and you'd be in a position to get better evidence from her, rather than to have her speculate about whether Ms Ndumo was or was not involved in the Boipatong massacre.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair, I was not aware that Ms Mokoena was also implicated in the Boipatong massacre.

CHAIRPERSON: She definitely was.  They both would go about knocking at people's doors at night, screaming, and people would open the doors because they would hear female voices, and once they opened the doors then people would come in and attack those who had opened the doors.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  Ms Mokoena were you ever involved in Boipatong massacre?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I was at home during the Boipatong massacre.  I did not take part, and Hapile was in gaol during that time.

MS THABETHE: We've also heard evidence that ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, can you tell us which period you say Ms Ndumo was in gaol?  During which period are you referring to?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Hapile was arrested in June, if I remember well, and she was released late July, around 31st of July, 1st of August.

CHAIRPERSON: For what was she arrested, if you know?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Can I briefly explain why she was arrested?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.