Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, I did, I told him that there was people that I was working with and I was making decisions in consultation with them because I did not want to take decisions single-handedly.

ADV SANDI: Did you mention the names of those people to Mr Hani?

J A MKHWANAZI: No, I did not mention the names.

ADV SANDI: Did you mention the name of Mzwandile Gushu to Mr Hani?

J A MKHWANAZI: No, I did not.

ADV SANDI: This meeting you had with Mr Hani, did you tell your colleagues about it, members of the Special Committee?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, I did report back that we held a meeting or I held a meeting with the Chief of Staff and reported the situation in Ermelo as well as the surrounding areas, as well as the decisions that we took or we were taking.

ADV SANDI: Just one final question.  When you met Mr Hani did it appear to you that someone had been in contact with him to inform him as to the happenings in Ermelo as well as other surrounding areas?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, he did appear to have quite a lot of information.  As to where he got the information I do not know, whether it was from the media or from a certain person because there was quite wide media coverage with regard to the happenings in other areas.  	It's possible that he got the information from other ANC structures or the regional offices were briefing him or maybe the Executive Committee but he did have information.  As to where and how he got it I don't know.  I do believe he got it from the Executive Committee.

ADV SANDI: I will have to apologise if I'm repeating this question to you, I may have asked you.  Did you mention the name of Mzwandile Gushu to Mr Hani?

J A MKHWANAZI: No, I did not.

ADV SANDI: Did you have any particular reason for not doing so?

J A MKHWANAZI: For security reasons.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Mkhwanazi.

ADV BOSMAN: Flowing this question put by my colleague Mr Mkhwanazi, Mr Gushu in his application form states that he was an MK soldier and the previous witnesses refer to him as their commander, did you place Mr Gushu in the position of commander?  In other words, did you in fact as it were promote Mr Gushu to an MK commander?  I don't have clarity on that.

J A MKHWANAZI: There were certain trained units and these units would become part of the MK structures and Mr Gushu was part of the MK structures because he was trained within the country and so he had all the authority to form the defence units and become a commander thereof.  That was part of his duties as a member of the MK structure which operated within the country.

ADV BOSMAN: Do I understand you correctly then that Mr Gushu had virtually by his activities placed himself in the position of a commander?

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, he was the commander of the self-defence unit.  He had to be the commander according to the military ranks.

ADV BOSMAN: I don't want to belabour the issue Mr Mkhwanazi, but I still don't have clarity in my own mind.  I don't really know military procedures, but if a person becomes a commander someone must confer that authority on him, is that not so?

J A MKHWANAZI: That is the regular army that has such a procedure, where there is finance but the circumstances under or a situation which is normal, but with our situation there was no normality so things were not done quite procedurally.  In the position that he was he was supposed to be the commander because he was commanding other people directly.

ADV BOSMAN: So he had worked himself into a position of a commander?  I just want to make sure that I understand you, I'm not setting any trap here.

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, the work he did pushed him to the position of a commander, as well as the training that he got.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We will take a five minute adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS