Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MR LAX: Your clients have both said they didn't know Masime.  Your clients have both said in their testimony that they didn't know who Johannes Masime was.  So how can they even begin to put such a proposition to this witness?  They didn't know who the man was.  You understand?  That was their evidence.  They never heard of him before.  So, they're in no position to say anything about him, and you're therefore in no position to put anything about him to them, other than in the most general of ideas.

MS MOLOISANE: The reason why I am putting this question is because Mr Bonga Khumalo stated that he was aware that the witness, that Elsie Mokoena had an affair with a policeman and he categorically stated that he was not attacked.  She, I mean, was not targeted because of her love affair with a policeman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well continue to put it to her, though you've already done that, and she has already said if that is what they are saying they are hallucinating.  You may continue to do so.

MS MOLOISANE: Ms Mokoena, do you agree with me that if there was anything wrong in you being in love with a policeman surely that policeman would have been attacked as well?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.  If it was a mistake to go out with a policeman, he could have been attacked as well.  But then, there was no mistake in going out with a policeman.

MS MOLOISANE: Do you know a woman by the name, or a girl by the name of Ntombimbi, or did you know here?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I do not know her personally.  I've never seen her.  I only know the name.

MS MOLOISANE: Was she not your friend.

ELSIE MOKOENA: No.

MS MOLOISANE: But you have already told this Committee that Meme was your friend.

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes, Meme was my friend.

MS MOLOISANE: And you have already confirmed that Meme was often seen in cars.  Is that not so?

CHAIRPERSON: Not seen in cars.  That she did have a boyfriend who was driving a car and that boyfriend was an IFP member, but that when the relationship started she was not aware that he was an IFP member.  She thought that person was a car thief.  She initially knew the boyfriend as a car thief.

MS MOLOISANE: Thank you Madam Chair.  Ms Mokoena my instruction is further that you, Hapile and Meme were spying for the IFP.  What do you say of that?

ELSIE MOKOENA: They are lying.

CHAIRPERSON: Are your instructions also that they were spying for the IFP and also passing on information to the police?  That is how I understood the basis of the motive that led to the killing, as stated by, in particular, Mr Radebe.

MS MOLOISANE: That is correct Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it would be fair then to put both the reasons why they were target, that they were IFP spies as well as being, as well as passing on information to the police, obviously bearing in mind that she had a relationship with a policeman.

MS MOLOISANE: Ms Mokoena my instruction is that you, Hapile and Meme were spying for the IFP and you were also passing on information to them and to the police.  What is your comment thereon?

ELSIE MOKOENA: The spies could not live long in the township.  If it was know that I was, Impimpi Hapile was one and Meme was one, we would have been killed long time ago.

MS MOLOISANE: You also told this Committee that you were aware the perception in the township, or the perception by people in the township that you were an IFP spy.  Is that not so?

ELSIE MOKOENA: That is so.

MS MOLOISANE: Was that the case with Hapile as well?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: And you also confirm that at some stage you appeared before the ANC I shall say disciplinary committee also.  You were questioned at the ANC office or at that garage which was being used as the office.

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes, I agree.

MS MOLOISANE: And during those, during the questioning, you were, let me rephrase it this way.  During that time you were extensively questioned about your involvement with the IFP, is that not correct?

ELSIE MOKOENA: That is not correct.

MS MOLOISANE: Were you not questioned about being a friend of Meme who also had an affair with that IFP member?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I was questioned.

MS MOLOISANE: Were you not being associated with the IFP's because of Meme's affair with that IFP member?

ELSIE MOKOENA: No.

MS MOLOISANE: Was Stanley Gqiba not present at that time?  Or let me put it this way, do you know Stanley Gqiba, a person by the name of Stanley Gqiba?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: He was one of the office bearers of the ANC in Sebokeng, is that not correct?

ELSIE MOKOENA: That is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: I put it to you that the allegation, or before I come to that my lord.

ADV BOSMAN: Ms Moloisane one of your questions has not been answered.  You asked whether Stanley Gqiba was present, you didn't quite say when?  It wasn't responded to by the witness.

MS MOLOISANE: Do you agree that this Stanley Gqiba was in fact present during the questioning?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: Did he also question you on that day, or during that period.

ELSIE MOKOENA: No.

MS MOLOISANE: I put it to you, and it is further my instruction, that you were questioned about your involvement in the, with the IFP.  What is your comment thereon?

ELSIE MOKOENA: No, I was not asked.

MS MOLOISANE: Were you also present when Hapile Ndumo was questioned?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: What was she questioned about?

ELSIE MOKOENA: She was questioned of her relationship with Memo.  She was asked whether when the cars arrive at Meme's place she would be present, and she was asked whether she had a friend as well, in that group of IFP men.

MS MOLOISANE: And what was her response?

ELSIE MOKOENA: She said no.  No.

MS MOLOISANE: You say, or let me put it this way Madam Chair, my instructions is further that you and Hapile were lashed and reprimanded for your, I mean after you were questioned at the ANC office there, or rather at the garage.  What do you say about that?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Those are their hallucinations.

MS MOLOISANE: Now let's go to the events of the 15th of August 1993.  You told this Committee that, when John Radebe called you, you thought that you, they were going to rape you, is that not so?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: But did you not know that they were SDU members, that John Radebe was an SDU member?

ELSIE MOKOENA: I knew that they were comrades.

MS MOLOISANE: And the same applies to Abraham Mkhwanazi, is that no so?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: Now, do you agree with me when I say that on that particular day they had, if they wanted to rape you they had ample chance to do that?

CHAIRPERSON: Just expand more so to enable her to respond properly.  Tell her what ample time they had.  Expand more on what you are putting to her, explain what you mean when you say they had ample time to rape her.

MS MOLOISANE: Let me start it this way Madam Chair.  How long did it, or, I still have a difficulty.  Let me rephrase it again.  What time was it when you were called, you and Hapile were called at the tavern by John Radebe?

ELSIE MOKOENA: It was something to five o'clock.

MS MOLOISANE: And what time was it when you were shot, you Elsie Mokoena, when you were shot at?

ELSIE MOKOENA: It was about five past five, if not ten past five.

ADV BOSMAN: Is that really a fair question?  Because what the witness testified was he asked her, the first time to come with him, she thought he would rape her.  So is this a fair question, to say he had ample time?  She did not testify that at the time that they were shot she thought they were going to rape her.  She testified that when he first asked her at the tavern to come with him, she thought that they were going to rape her.

MS MOLOISANE: Then I will leave it then Committee Member.  You say you know comrade Mabusa Mhlongo?

ELSIE MOKOENA: Yes.

MS MOLOISANE: Did, do you know, or did you know at that stage what portfolio he had in the SDUs?

ELSIE MOKOENA: No.