Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

WITNESS: Yes, it did. It's true, because we used to share the childrenduring the holidays. We were in joint custody. At times they would go to Soweto,at times they would visit Kroonstad. I am saying this because I was not awarethat my husband was accusing me of being the killer of my daughter. He toldme that he had asked me to take the children to Kroonstad during December holidays,but I refused, I said I wanted to stay with my children during the holidays.During the holidays they would go to his mother's place, as well as to my mother'splace, alternatively. When my child died he blamed me for the death of my daughterbecause I had refused to allow my children to go to Kroonstad. I feel had Iallowed them to go to Kroonstad probably my child wouldn't have died, so eachtime he used to accused me and say Joe Mamasela and myself have killed his child.I asked him how could I give birth to a child and then kill the very same child.There came a time when I felt these accusations were quite unfounded, and weargued a lot. We realised that the relationship was getting sour by the day.We decided that we should part ways. We divorced in 1991.

MR SESELE: (Inaudible) ... a tragic story as I have said. I think whenthe family is affected by this type of tragedy then I think it becomes very,very serious. But what I would like to say here is that it's quite clear thatboth of you were deeply affected by the death of your daughter.  /I understand.

MR SESELE: I understand that your husband even got psychiatric

MR SESELE: treatment.

WITNESS: Yes, but not long.

MR SESELE: Not long, but it indicates the extent of trauma you both experienced.And also up to this moment you're still very traumatised. I would suggest thatyou take this seriously and see the counsellor or the therapists. I think bothof you are well educated, you'll understand the seriousness of this and howit's affecting your life, and how it might end up affecting the lives of yourown children, the two remaining children. If you need any assistance we arethere to help you in connection with your own health. Is there anything elsewhich you would like to say? I would like to hand over to our Chairperson.

MR SESELE: Just one question. This is a serious, painful thing. I don'tthink that it can just be left as it is. Joe Mamasela had shot a neighbour.Do you know the name of this neighbour?

WITNESS: Unfortunately not.

MR SESELE: You don't know? Thank you. And Ransehu Sylvester, you havejust said that the Magistrate adopted a don't care attitude.

WITNESS: Yes.

MR SESELE: Do you know the name of this Magistrate?

WITNESS: Today, no, Sir,I don't.

MR SESELE: You don't know the Magistrate?

WITNESS: No, but I think from thecase number we can ... (incomplete)

MR SESELE: You can what-do-you-call.

WITNESS: Ja.

MR SESELE: And the prosecutor, you don't know his name?

WITNESS: No. No.

MR SESELE: Thank you. I think that will need to be investigated by ourteam. Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Just one question. On a few occasionsJoe Mamasela has appeared through the media confessing to some of the storiesthat he was involved in. What I would like to establish with yourselves, whetherhe has said anything to either of you to the effect of confessing and perhapsasking for forgiveness.

WITNESS: No. And just to end on the note that I think hasbeen set here. To make matters worse he was actually gunning for me when I wasbusy making the arrangements for my kid. The following Monday I was right fromseeing a doctor out in Vereeniging, I was on my way to Sebokeng. He was justdriving in front of me, I was coming at the back, and when we were approachingthe four-way stop, that's the one that's getting into Sebokeng, the other one'sgetting into Potchefstroom, the other one is getting into Vanderbijlpark, becauseI was from Vereeniging. He just all of a sudden - I didn't see him rush in frontof me. He moved to my side and I almost bumped him, and I knew what his intentionwas, so that he could get even also possibly with me, because I couldn't seeany other intention of him acting or behaving in that fashion.

MR LYSTER: Mr and Mrs Sesele, thank you very much forcoming and telling us what you have told us today. You have lost your daughter,your beloved daughter, who was only seven years old at the time of this incident.You lost her in tragic circumstances, and perhaps it is a more difficult thingto accept the death of one so young and so innocent. From what you have toldus it seems clear that she was killed by Mr Joe Mamasela, a man who, as youknow, has admitted killing people, beating people to death at the instructions of his employer, the Security Police, andthat also must make it more difficult for you to accept, to know that she diedat the hands of such a man.
It's clear that you have both been very traumatised by thisincident, and we can arrange counselling. The Reparations and RehabilitationCommittee of the Truth Commission can arrange for you to see counsellors ifyou want to, so please, before you go, make sure that you have spoken to usif you would like to take up that opportunity.
We are very sorry to hear that this incident caused the break-upof your marriage, and it must be of some comfort to you to be able to sit heretogether, giving each other support, as you tell us about this very tragic story.
We will follow up the details about the court case that youhave given us and try and find out why the case resulted in an acquittal, andwe will convey those details to you.
Thank you very much for coming in.

MR LYSTER: Thank you for coming in today, Mrs Tipe.Can you please put on the earpieces and please tell me whether you can hearmy voice? Are you able to hear me talking now? Are you able to hear me?

MARTHA TIPE: Yes, I hear you clearly, Sir.

MR LYSTER: Thank you very much. You have come to usfrom Kroonstad, and you have come to tell us about the death of your husband,Jacob Tipe, who was killed by the Three Million Gang. Before you give your storyplease could you stand up and take the oath.

MARTHA TIPE: (Sworn, States)

MR LYSTER: Thank you very much, Mrs Tipe. I am goingto ask one of my colleagues, Mrs Virginia Gcabashe, to help you with your evidencenow.

UNKNOWN: Good morning, Mrs Tipe. Mrs Tipe, I knowthat you come from very far away in Mangaung. I know that the story that you'regoing to relate to us is very painful. That is the death of your partner, thepartner that you've lived with for so many years. Then this partner leaves youwhen you need him most, when you were expecting a lot. I want to thank you forthe courage to have come before this Commission to share your story with us,and to hear the truth of what took place. I'll ask you to take your time, buttry to give us some details as to what happened. You came here to tell us aboutyour husband. Before we hear about what happened just give us a brief backgroundabout your family - have you got children, where do you stay, are you working- so that we may have a picture as to how you live. (Pause) If you can't hearme well please do tell me that you can't hear me. (Pause) As I have already said we feel very sorry for whathappened to you, and we praise your courage for having come to this Commissionso that the truth may be revealed. Before we can even go forth and talk aboutwhat happened to your husband just give us a brief history of your family -where do you stay, where do you come from, do you have any children - so thatwhen we talk about your husband and what happened to him we have a clear pictureas to what type of a family you had. I shall request you to start there, givingus a brief ... (incomplete)