Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: No I don't, according to me people should forgiveeach other, not the Government.   The people who are affectedwho had the pain should be the ones who are talking about forgiveness,not the Government.

<UNKNOWN>: How do you feel about this move by the Governmenttalking to people, persuading them towards reconciliation?

ANSWER: I feel very bad because this thing, it's stillthere, we are still feeling the pain and this people never cameto us to ask for forgiveness.   The Government is doing this ontheir behalf, they don't even know what forgiveness is.   Thispeople don't even deserve it because if the person was to be forgiven,he must understand what you feel.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE
MR DU PLESSIS ADDRESSES COMMITTEE
 Mr Chairman I don't want to be difficult but I want to raisea specific point which bothers us.   We have received this newspaperclipping now.   During cross-examination of the applicants, theapplicants were asked about the question if a lady friend waswith them in respect of Makope when
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MR DU PLESSIS 454 ADDRESS
Makope was picked up, no mention was made of this document andI wasn't provided with this document before.   That is the firstpoint.   The second point is that on the left of this documentthe article, the last paragraph of the article reads as follows:
  "Mark, his mother and uncle, Elizabeth Make and James Makeconfirmed that Make disappeared on July 17 after telling themthat he was going to Swaziland, Lesotho and Botswana on a churchmission."
That evidence wasn't presented or advanced by Mr Make's motherand I would have liked to have asked Mr Make's mother questionsabout this specific allegation.   I want to place that on recordfirstly that this evidence wasn't given by Mrs Make and that we'rebeing prejudiced by not having this document available to askMrs Make questions about this.   I want a direction from the Committee,please about the use of documents if my learned friend Mr Mpsheintends using documents during cross-examination of witnesses,I would ask the Committee to direct that we be supplied with thosedocuments before the main examination starts.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that latter request is a genuine oneand a fair one Mr Mpshe.   If you are in possession of documentswhich you propose using, don't place them in cross-examination,afford counsel an opportunity beforehand.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman that is what I must do, but whenI presented this document Mr Chairman it was not for cross-examination.  The Chair will recall that I never asked a single question fromthis document.

CHAIRPERSON: It just transpires that information is containedin this document which might have a bearing on matters but
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MR CURRIN 455 ADDRESS
the request is that if you are going to make use of documents,let them have it before you ask questions.   This question thatyou raise about the last paragraph, Mr Currin is it possible foryou to take instructions and clear that up?

MR CURRIN: : Yes Mr Chairman that was the first time we'dheard that allegation and while Mr Du Plessis was busy addressingyou, my colleague Mr Van der Berg was taking instructions andhe just came back to me now to say that Mrs Make says that shenever ever said that to the city press.  She never made that allegation,never said that to the reporter.   She says they asked her ifshe knew what had happened to her son and she said she didn'tknow and she denies that she said that.   She certainly nevermentioned that to us during the discussions we had with her.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you wish to take that any further, it'sa matter between you and the press.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Yes Mr Chairman except that I have notbeen afforded the opportunity of asking her questions about it,but I know we're dealing with it piecemeal, I don't really wantto have her recalled I just wanted to make this point that we'rebeing prejudiced in this way.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS
WITNESS IS EXCUSED
NO FURTHER WITNESSES REGARDING THIS MATTER

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman, Mr Mpshe, myself and Mr Currinare in agreement that Mr Currin, well Mr Currin gave an indicationthat he wanted to cross-examine Brigadier Cronje on the generalbackground.   We gave an undertaking yesterday that we will starttoday with Brigadier Cronje on the general background and affordMr Currin a chance to
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MR DU PLESSIS 456 ADDRESS
cross-examine him on that before we go ahead any further and thatis how I understand the proceedings will go.

CHAIRPERSON: Then what happens to the rest of Mr Cronje'sevidence?

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman we will then go ahead withsome of the other incidents pertaining to Van Vuuren and Hechterbut we will get to Brigadier Cronje's evidence hopefully duringtoday, otherwise we will start with it tomorrow and we will hopefullyfinish with that during this week.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Currin is that the position?

MR CURRIN: : Mr Chairman this comes as a complete surpriseto me, I thought that Brigadier Cronje was standing over untilhe testifies and that he testifies once, I thought that was yourruling.   In fact my understanding was that you were proceedingwith other applications, however I wasn't present when the discussionstook place in chambers so maybe Mr Mpshe can give us some guidance.  I have no difficulty at all in beginning the cross-examinationof Brigadier Cronje, I would just have to go and get my file andrequire a five minute adjournment to prepare myself to commencethat cross-examination.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman we don't have a problem, actuallywhat I want to say is during this week we have acceded to everyrequest of everybody, Mr Mpshe, Mr Currin, we will fall in withevery request of them whenever they want to hear, whatever incidents,we're prepared to fall in with that so we are prepared to go onwith Geoffrey Sebia(?) under these circumstances Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman just to recall what was decidedupon in chambers, it was that we do not go on with the
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Hammanskraal matter but the ruling that was made was to the effectthat we continue with other matters that we can deal with todayand that was the conclusion in chambers Mr Chairman, that wasthe impression that was given right through.   Mr Chairman justsome few minutes before we could start then I was approached byMr Currin who said if we cross-examine Brigadier Cronje will youhave any problem, I said no I won't have any problem but I didnot see that as putting aside the decision to deal with othermatters that are standing.   I want to believe Mr Chairman itis in the interests of all here present, applicants as well asvictims, that we continue with incidences as we have been doingMr Chairman and the ruling that Brigadier Cronje would be cross-examinedon the general background the ruling was given by this Committeethat that would be done when Brigadier Cronje gives his evidenceon the other incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: We will proceed in terms of the arrangementsthat were arrived at in chambers this morning.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Thank you Mr Chairman, I call CaptainHechter.   Mr Chairman it is the matter of Geoffrey Sebia, thatis page 111.
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MR CURRIN: : ...represents the family in regard to thisparticular matter, we haven't yet been given a copy of the applicationand furthermore, as far as we know, the Sebia, the family is nothere.   I believe that they are not present today.   So maybeMr Mpshe should just ensure that they are in fact here beforeone proceeds with that application.

CHAIRPERSON: They knew this matter was proceeding todaydid they not?