Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-27

MR PRIOR: Why do you say that Letlapa Maphalela had knowledge of these orders?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Nobody would be a Director of an operation and not know what is going on.

MR PRIOR: Did Bulelani Xuma know about this operation, that is the attack on Heidelberg?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I don't know whether he knew about it.

MR PRIOR: Who was Bulelani Xuma, what was the position that he held within APLA?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: He was a Member of the Command.

MR PRIOR: Did you fall directly under his command?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, as he was a Commander I fell under him.

MR PRIOR: Did you see him before leaving for Cape Town or put it this way, before you arrived in Cape Town, before the attack on Heidelberg, did you see him or communicate with him?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: What are you talking about?

MR PRIOR: I am talking about your relationship to Bulelani Xuma, your Commander.  Had you seen him or discussed anything with him before you came to Cape Town as you indicate in November of 1993?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I am not sure about the dates, but we could have met as we were all in Umtata.

MR PRIOR: Well, do you remember or don't you remember whether you met with him before you came to Cape Town to carry out these attacks?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: As I said,  we could have met because even in Tsolo we are in training together.

MR PRIOR: Well, is it likely that if you had seen him in Umtata, you would have or he would have discussed with you, your mission to Cape Town, being your Commander?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, I would not talk to him about such.

MR PRIOR: So, if I understand you then correctly, it would then be false for anyone to suggest that Bulelani Xuma was the person responsible for giving the orders to attack Heidelberg Tavern as you then did?  Do you agree?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I would not be clear as you put it forward.

MR PRIOR: Why would you not be clear?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Because of the way you are putting it forward, it is not clear to me.

CHAIRPERSON: It is very simple, I mean, did Bulelani Xuma give you the orders to attack Heidelberg?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: It is now more simple.  I did not get orders from Bulelani Xuma to go and attack.

MR PRIOR: Who was present when you received the orders to travel or to proceed to Cape Town during 1993?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: It was Sichumiso and I that were given orders before I came to Cape Town.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I didn't catch that name, who was it?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: It was Sichumiso and I.

MR PRIOR: Who is that person?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Sichumiso.

MR PRIOR: Nonxuba?  And are you saying that he gave you the orders to go to Cape Town?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, he gave me the orders to come to Cape Town.

MR PRIOR: And did he tell you what the orders were going to be when you arrived in Cape Town?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That is so.

MR PRIOR: And he told you the one was the Nyanga Army Base, the second was the Lingelethu West police station and the third was the Heidelberg Tavern, is that so?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, that is so.

MR PRIOR: Was Nonxuba of the same rank of yourself or was he of a higher rank within the structure of APLA?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: He was higher than I, he was a member of the High Command.

MR PRIOR: Was he in the same league as Letlapa Maphalela?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, they were all in the High Command.

MR PRIOR: With Brigadier Pehle?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I do not know of the Brigadier that you are talking about.

MR PRIOR: So, if I understand you correctly, this order came from Nonxuba who was a member of the High Command and it would then appear that these three targets had been selected well before the actual attacks, is that correct?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: These weren't attacks that were simply decided upon once you had got to Cape Town?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: We were given orders to attack the three places.  The decision was made even before we left Umtata.

MR PRIOR: Yes.  And did you know what weapons you would be using in these attacks before you left Umtata?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, he told me the types of weaponry that we should expect when we get to Cape Town.

MR PRIOR: And those weapons and other logistics, logistical support would be provided for you by Mr Siyolo and Mr Mabusela in Cape Town, is that correct?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: What do you mean when you are talking about logistics, way of travelling?

MR PRIOR: Well, your transport to and from your accommodation, the way you were going to attack, or the transport involved in the attacks, that would be arranged for you once you got to Cape Town, is that correct?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I had no knowledge of the logistics.  I was just given orders to command my unit to go and attack.

MR PRIOR: Were you not informed that you could expect assistance in Cape Town from people like Mr Siyolo and Mr Mabusela, members of PAC in Cape Town?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: The help I expected was Siphiwo, that is the reinforcement that I expected.

MR PRIOR: You did mention in your evidence that you connected with Mr Siyolo and Mr Mabusela after you arrived in Cape Town, is that correct?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That is correct.  These were contacts that we were given by people who knew them, because I did not know them.

MR PRIOR: Well, for example, how did you meet with Mr  Siyolo?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: It is the person next to me that took us to Siyolo.

MR PRIOR: Is that Mr Madasi?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRIOR: Did he seem to know who Mr Siyolo was?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: This gentleman is from Cape Town, he knows Siyolo.

MR PRIOR: And in short, Siyolo and Mabusela, they were aware that the arms and ammunition supplied to you, were going to be used to kill people, is that correct?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: It could be so.

MR PRIOR: Did you not discuss what you were going to do with the weapons with them?

CHAIRPERSON: What does that mean?

MR PRIOR: Did you discuss with Mr Siyolo and Mr Mabusela, the purpose for which you required or which you were going to use those weapons that they arranged for you to collect?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: First of all, these people were not even in the programme, they are the leaders of the PAC.  There was no need for me to talk to them about matters concerning us as soldiers.

MR PRIOR: Now, do I understand your evidence that you simply carried out the order or orders given to you from, for example Mr Nonxuba, to carry out these attacks?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRIOR: And that was without reservation or without question?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Did you consider at any stage before you attacked for example the Army Base and the police station at Lingelethu or the Heidelberg Tavern, that there could have been casualties on your side?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: People that would help on my side?

MR PRIOR: No, casualties.  Your unit, did you consider the possibility that you could have met up with resistance and that you could have either been killed or injured.  Was that contemplated by yourself?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: First of all, we are soldiers.  That is our job.  In every war there are casualties.  It is to be expected.  We would see when the occasion arises.

MR PRIOR: Are you saying then that you did anticipate the possibility at least of being either killed or injured in those operations?  Or did you not?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I expected such.  Anybody could have died, it was a war.  That was to be expected.