Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-17

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand that but I think what I want to know is, did you not mention this fact in the statement because it didn't occur to you at the time of the making of the statement or did you not mention it because you were told by the individuals that you had mentioned here not to disclose it?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.  After I have told by the individuals so I didn't mention it.

CHAIRPERSON: You did mention it?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not mention it because you were told not to mention it?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  At Page 15 of the fresh Affidavit you deposed on the 4th June 1998, particularly at Paragraph 38.  I will read the paragraph for you so that you are able to understand the next question I shall be putting to you.  There you say,
"The oppression which resulted in the killing of Batandwa was done at the instance and in the interest of the Government of the then Republic of Transkei and I was acting in the course and scope of my employment of the Department of Police of the said Government."
Then it goes further, you say,
"The Government of the day was fully appreciative of the operation."
Do you get that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes I get it.

MR DUKADA: Is this one of the reasons you are applying for amnesty in this Committee?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: And then at Page 15, if you move backwards, at Paragraph 36, the very last sentence, you say,
"It was only by mistake that Batandwa was killed in the operation since I only intended to arrest him and not to kill him."
Do you get that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Ja, go back Mr Dandala, you mentioned that firstly he was escaping from local custody.  Secondly, you were threatened by askaris to partake in the killing.  Thirdly, the killing was sanctioned by your Department and the Government of the day was fully appreciative of the operation.  And fourthly, you killed Batandwa by mistake.
	What I want to find out from you, precisely what is the reason for you to apply for amnesty in the Committee?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That I have killed Batandwa.

MR DUKADA: ...[inaudible] the reason?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is the reason, that I have killed him.

MR DUKADA: No no sir.  I have set out different versions which come from the documents which you signed, statements.  Can I come again?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Dukada I'm not too sure whether you can take this matter any further because the witness does say that he's applying for amnesty because he killed the deceased.  That's the upshot of his answer.

MR DUKADA: Mr Chairman I just want to find out from the witness the motive for killing the deceased.  Everybody, with respect, knows that the deceased Batandwa died but I just want to find out the ...[inaudible] motive, if there was any motive for the killing.  Mr Dandala I've set out all these versions you mentioned from the various documents but what I want to find out from you, what was the reason if you can just move from the question of amnesty.  What was the reason for you to kill the deceased?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Firstly I said, since I have already heard that he is a trained terrorist and secondly that I was acting on security of the state and thirdly that he was running away, escaping.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR DUKADA: Now, let's go back to the underground security branch.  You were initially a member of the security branch in the Transkeian Police Force.  Is that correct?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes, that is correct.

MR DUKADA: And thereafter you joined the underground unit within the Department of Police in Transkei?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Now what was the purpose of the security branch?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: The purpose of?

MR DUKADA: The security branch in Transkei.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Security branch?

MR DUKADA: Yes.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It was to safeguard the country against terrorism.

MR DUKADA: And then the unit, the underground unit?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, the security branch.  The underground unit, it had also those duties but doing them in a way that they can't, they cannot be identified as policemen.  But the duties were the same.  That we had to safeguard the country.

MR DUKADA: What was the point of duplicating functions Mr Dandala?  If there was a security branch to look after so-called terrorists, why was there a need for an underground unit?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Could you please come again?

MR DUKADA: Was not a duplication of functions, if there was a security branch to combat terrorism then why did, what was the reason for establishing the underground unit?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It was for infiltration.

MR DUKADA: That could have been done easily by any member of the security branch then?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes, that could be done by any member but it so happened that there was this underground security.

MR DUKADA: Yes, but you must know Mr Dandala why the unit was established.  I want to find out from you the reasons for the formation of this unit?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I don't know the reasons for the formation of this unit.

MR DUKADA: And when was it formed?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I don't know.  I mean we were the first people on this underground security.  I'm sure it was formed early 1985.

MR DUKADA: Was it a formal unit in the sense in that it was in the books of the Department of Police or it was a clandestine unit, not known by other members of the Police Force?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes, it was in clandestine movement.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it known to other members of the security branch?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Other members of the security branch didn't know about this branch.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  And what operations did you conduct before this incident as a member of the underground unit?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: There were no operations.

MR DUKADA: Do you understand that the first functioning of this underground unit was when Ndondo was killed on the 24th September 1985?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Sorry, could you please come again?

MR DUKADA: Do I understand from you, if I'm correct, that the first functioning of this unit was when Ndondo was killed on the 24th September 1985?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It was not the function of this unit.

MR DUKADA: But I'm talking about the operation of the unit Mr Dandala.

CHAIRPERSON: What he is asking you is this, the incident relating to the death of the deceased was this the first operation in which your unit got involved?  Is that the question?

MR DUKADA: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand the question?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I understand the question.  But I don't think those were the duties of that unit.  That operation could have been done by each and every policeman, a member of the police.

MR DUKADA: No but what I'm going to find out before I move to this, Mr Dandala, what other operations were conducted by this unit before the killing of Batandwa?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Okay, let me express it like this.  In this unit we were not supposed to arrest in this unit.  We were supposed to gather information only and bring it to the head office.  If we have spotted somebody, we bring that information to the head office so that he can be arrested by other members, not by the members of this unit.

MR DUKADA: Mr Dandala, can you tell this Committee what information did you gather in Transkei prior to the killing of Ndondo?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No there was no information gathered prior to the killing of Batandwa.

MR DUKADA: In other words are you saying that as a unit you had done nothing until the day Ndondo was killed?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I could say so because really there was no information about him.