Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Yes do carry on.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Potsane, after you fired your shot did firing still continue?

NEO POTSANE: Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: For how long?

NEO POTSANE: It continued for several seconds and then it ceased.

MR PRETORIUS: You're referring to seconds, do I take it that you mean it was a very short period after you fired your shot, the firing stopped?

NEO POTSANE: That is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: Now after you fired your shot, were any shots fired from the people on the parapet towards the crowd or anywhere.  Were any shots fired by people on the parapet?

NEO POTSANE: I cannot remember.

MR PRETORIUS: I then refer you to your evidence at the inquest, page 3557.  Have you got it with you?

NEO POTSANE: 3557?

MR PRETORIUS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You have that with you?  Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: If you can read at the bottom of the page, approximately the last five lines.  You remained on the parapet for - maybe I should start earlier so as to place it fully in perspective.  "And the shotgun, what happened to that?",  "I handed it back to Moolman".  "Why did you give it back to him?", "Because I got it from him".  "And then remained on the parapet for approximately another 10 minutes, is that correct?", "Yes".  "And during that period..." so the period he refers to is after you handed the firearm back to Moolman and further on:  "Where any shots fired from the parapet", "No".  Do you see that Mr Potsane?

NEO POTSANE: Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: At the inquest you testified that no shots were fired from the parapet after you fired your shot.

MR LAX: No that's not so Mr Pretorius.  What he's saying is after he handed the gun back no shots were fired, in this evidence here, in this extract and there's a big difference because he said in his evidence yesterday and evidence in chief that he fired the shot then they laid down and then they did nothing until it got quiet.  After that he handed the gun back and then they stayed there for a further 10 minutes so.  They were scared, that was roughly his evidence, word to that effect.  Do you remember that?

MR PRETORIUS: Honourable committee member what I am referring him to is with reference to this particular part where he states that after he handed the gun back to Moolman, no shots were fired from the parapet.  That is clear.

MR LAX: That's fine, but that's different to saying that after he fired the shot, no shots were heard.  Do you see the difference?

CHAIRPERSON: Let's get it clear, the point is it doesn't matter.  After he handed the gun back to Moolman he says he did not hear any firing from the parapet.  Now what is your question?

MR PRETORIUS: To take it one step further, after you shot your shot towards the crowd, it was a very short time thereafter you handed the gun back to Moolman.  Correct?

NEO POTSANE: Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: As I've got it, you testified that you fired the shot, you immediately took cover and you handed the gun back to Moolman.  Is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes he said that.

MR PRETORIUS: So after you fired your shot, were any shots fired from the parapet or not.  Can you recall that now?

NEO POTSANE: I testified earlier on that after I fired the shot, fire was still continuing.  That is referring to the fire that was coming from all directions so when I say all - I cannot say, I cannot single out and say at the parapet, it was coming just general fire coming from all directions and I cannot say no well this one came from the parapet or ... (intervention)

MR PRETORIUS: Does that also refer to the period after you handed the shotgun back to Moolman?

NEO POTSANE: That is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: You see Mr Potsane in the inquest record where I referred you to now, you said there were no shots fired from the parapet during that period.  Is that correct?

NEO POTSANE: At the inquest where you are referring me now, I did not state that but I'm sure that at the inquest where it refers to that portion of my evidence, it does reflect that I did say no fire did continue for several seconds.

MR PRETORIUS: You're quite correct Mr Potsane, at the inquest you did say fire continued for several seconds.  That was one of the reasons why you were asked whether that fire was coming from the parapet, that was why you were asked that question.  Here on page 3557 you stated:  "No", not during the period after you handed the gun back to Moolman.

NEO POTSANE: To that question I think I can say that the mere fact that I did not see or witness or hear shots, you know that were fired on the parapet, I can not say 100% that fire was shot on the parapet.  I'll be claiming that part of the ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think he says today that he can't remember whether people from the parapet fired after that.  If he can't remember something which is different from what he had said at the inquest, you must accept his evidence that he can't remember.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman that is indeed so.  I may just point out that this is very important and it relates to the further lines of questions I'm going to as him.  You see the importance of this is Mr Potsane that the evidence is to the effect that only four shots were fired with shotguns that day or during that period from the parapet.  Are you aware of that?

NEO POTSANE: Yes I'm aware of that.

MR PRETORIUS: The medical evidence in regard to the people that died on the corner that day indicates or proves that four people were shot with shotguns and they were all shot in the back.  Are you also aware of that fact?

NEO POTSANE: Yes I'm aware of that.

MR PRETORIUS: If your shot was the last that was fired from the parapet onto the crowd, the only conclusion that one can then come to is that you must have been firing at the crowd at the time when they were running away.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is the evidence that his shot was the last shot?

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman that is why I specifically asked him now, first whether he heard any shot or whether he was aware of any shots.

CHAIRPERSON: And he says he can't remember.

MR PRETORIUS: And he said then as well Mr Chairman that the firing lasted for only a few seconds, it was very short, after he fired his shot so it relates to the timespan and the fact that he fired a shot.

CHAIRPERSON: The firing last, not necessarily from the parapet.  The general firing may have lasted, but you're talking about the firing from the parapet itself and where he says I can't remember whether there was any firing after I fired.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman that is the reason why I put to him what he testified to in the inquest, that there was no shots.  You read that together with the fact that he says it only lasted for a few seconds, it means that his shot had to be the last shot.  If that is correct, then he was firing at people that were running away.

CHAIRPERSON: Well just put it to him if that is the conclusion that you are drawing, that you fired at people who were running away, because nobody else fired after you fired.  Is that what you're saying?

MR PRETORIUS: That is the - if you read everything together that is the position Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well that's the conclusion you are drawing.

MR PRETORIUS: That is why I give him the opportunity to respond thereto.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  You understand the question that you were the last person that fired and that you fired at a retreating crowd, the marchers were retreating which means that they were shot in the back, that's an indication that they were retreating when you fired?

NEO POTSANE: Yes I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.