Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-18

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: It wasn't going to be easy because sometimes if you heard something in a caucus meeting and then you take responsibility on your own and you go and check if that information is true and false then you want to know if you were checking that and they will think we're leaking the information and then sjambok you.

MS REDDY: You make mention of a Mr George in your affidavit, can you tell me who Mr George is?

MS LOONAT: Mr Chairperson, could my learned colleague just show us where in the affidavit so that my client could refer to it?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, perhaps you could refer to the page in the bundle, have you got the bundle?  I assume you've got this application bundle, Ms Reddy?

MS LOONAT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, the pages are numbered, are paginated so you can just refer to the page?

MS REDDY: Page 4, paragraph 5, line 2.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 4?  Sorry, is it the paginated page because we've got in our bundle, the pages are paginated with a koki pen, black koki pen.  I don't know what your one looks like?

MS REDDY: Alright, just go to the affidavit of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Where does it appear?

MS REDDY: It's on the first page of the affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: Where does it appear, page 9?  So you don't have a paginated bundle there?

MS REDDY: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, well let's try and find the affidavit.  I'm told it could be on page 9.  Is it a document, is it a fax document with some faxed information on the top there 3/11/99 16/16 etc?

MS REDDY: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Not that?

MS REDDY: It's the affidavit of Jili, the first page of the affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright has it got an amnesty reference number and then the heading affidavit and then it starts "I the undersigned"

MS REDDY: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: "Mbekesini Jili said under oath, I'm a South African male", is it that document?

MS REDDY: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, what paragraph?

MS REDDY: It will be paragraph 5 line 2, "George Ferrero."

CHAIRPERSON: George Ferrero?

MS REDDY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we've got that.  Yes, Ms Loonat I assume you've got that?

MS REDDY: Yes thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, let's proceed.

MS REDDY: Could you please tell me who you are referring to as George Ferrero?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: The owner of the farm who we attacked.

MS REDDY: The farmer that you attacked was a Mr Edward Ferrero.

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I know him as George Ferrero.  Mduduzi and them told me so.

MS REDDY: Right, evidence would be led here by the daughter of Mr Edward Ferrero, that George actually was the grandfather on the maternal side so that is why I'm now in confusion with the said name.  You say Mduduzi or Mdudu actually gave you a firearm, is that correct?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes that is correct.

MS REDDY: And you also say that your political objective was to actually go to the farm in question and get firearms to protect yourselves.  So I'm having problems reconciling the two because you had firearms, you had spears, that was enough to actually enough to counteract any attacks from the IFP.  So why did you actually need to go and get more firearms for the said objective?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: We went there because we needed more firearms.  The only firearms we had they were home made firearms of which there were just three.

MS REDDY: Can I just take you back to the incident where you said some other persons from the ANC members actually went to the farm, you actually say in 1993 they went to the farm and took five firearms.  Were not those five firearms sufficient?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Only five people went there, I didn't say they'd taken five firearms, I said five of them went there.

MS REDDY: In your affidavit five is stated?

MS LOONAT: Mr Chairperson, can I just ask my learned colleague to point to us where in the affidavit?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, paragraph 6, the middle line, towards the end of that middle line.

MS LOONAT: Thank you.

MS REDDY: It's in the affidavit of the applicant.

MS LOONAT: Mr Chairperson, may I address?  Our understanding, it appears that that was hearsay because he says he was not part of the delegation so it's ...(indistinct) to ask him to confirm what is actually told by somebody else?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Jili, this affidavit of yours was taken I assume by the TRC.

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, by the TRC investigator.

CHAIRPERSON: The TRC investigator took an affidavit, a statement from you which was signed on the 2nd of this month.  Now in paragraph 6 of that affidavit which is what Ms Reddy is referring to, it is said that there were some members of your group that had gone to the farm of Ferrero one day in 1993 and they broke into that house and they stole five firearms and then it says that you were not part of that delegation that went to steal the firearms.  Ms Reddy is asking you about these five firearms.  Now is this right, is this what happened, were there people who went there and they broke in and they stole five firearms from the farmhouse?  Was it something that you heard or what, where does this come from?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I heard about them going there and one of them, I saw him and he had the firearm with him, one of the five boys.

CHAIRPERSON: So that person, how many firearms did that person have with him, the one that you saw of the five that went to break into the house on the farm?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: He only had one and then he promised that he was going to bring the rest in the camps where we were hiding.

CHAIRPERSON: So did he say that they took five firearms from the farm?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: He counted that it was him and the others, he told me he was with Mdonda's son and Mthembu's son and Dlamini's son and he said they went in that farm and they stole the guns or the firearms and the said they were going to bring the rest in the camps.

CHAIRPERSON: So that firearm that he had with him did he say he got that on the farm?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What kind of firearm was it, was it a handgun or was it a big gun or what was it?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: A shotgun.

CHAIRPERSON: A shotgun?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you see any of the firearms that this chap was talking about, this person that went to break in there whom he said that they took there, had you seen any of the other firearms apart from this shotgun?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: I say another one in Reggie Mkhize's possession.

CHAIRPERSON: So let me ask you, how many of those firearms did you see, you saw the one with this first person that spoke to you then you saw another one, how many in total of those firearms did you see eventually?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: The only guns that I've seen with my eyes were these two and then the rest I was told and I was told that they were going to bring them in the camps.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and the second one that you saw, what kind of firearm was that?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: It was also a shotgun.

CHAIRPERSON: Also a shotgun.  Yes Ms Reddy?

MS REDDY: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MS REDDY: Mr Jili, I'll refer you back to your affidavit, paragraph 7 and I quote
"Myself, Mtandwa Tshabalala, Mduduzi Jama, Bongani Zuma and Zubalele Zama had decided to go and see if we can't find more firearms on the farm."
So your actual reason for going to that farm on the day in question was to get firearms, am I correct?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: When we arrived there Mduduzi Jama was in front.  He started shooting and I only saw a person lying down there.

MS REDDY: But Mduduzi also told you to kill Mrs Ferrero and you abided.  Can you respond to that please?

MBEKISENI MLABINI JILI: Mduduzi was standing right near Mrs Ferrero and then he said to me I must shoot at here and someone was already lying down, I think he was dead and then he said I must shoot and then I shot at her.