Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MR MOGADE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  My name is Sheldon Mogade.  I represent the Campus Law Clinic; we have instructed Angus Stewart in this matter.  Mr Chairman, might I suggest that I start with my cross-examination after tea, because I see it's already five to eleven.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that would be convenient, if we take the tea adjournment now, if we can reconvene at twenty past eleven?
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
MR MKHIZE (suo)

MR MOGADE: (Indistinct) four lines from the bottom of the page.  It reads
"I was approached by Daloxulo Luthuli who instructed me to go to Ulundi and see Maj Langeni concerning under-cover duties."
Do you have that line?

DJ MKHIZE: From para 16?

MR MOGADE: Ja, para 26, the fifth line from the bottom.

DJ MKHIZE: Okay.  Ja, I got it.

MR MOGADE: Mr Mkhize, it has been suggested, not only in this forum, but in others, that Mr Daloxulo Luthuli acted without any higher authority; that he acted without instructions.  In fact that he directed a band of trained hitmen, including himself, for his own purposes.  Are you aware of suggestions of that nature?

DJ MKHIZE: No.  I would not know, because it was not Duloxulo Luthuli to whom I spoke about starting this structure.  But I also indicated and referred to other people such as Gideon Zulu and I also spoke about the Minister Mzimela who was then General Secretary of the Kwazulu Legislator, MZ Khumalo, and he was then personal assistant to the President of the IFP.  And therefore I would not say that it was Mr Luthuli only who did this on his own.  And because of the reasons I have already stated.

MR MOGADE: Mr Mkhize, now to your knowledge which higher authorities did Mr Luthuli report to or receive any instructions from in directing the Caprivi trainees around the province?

DJ MKHIZE: There might be others whom I do not know, but I am talking about the ones that I know.  I don't know whether those people would relate the same information to other people at upper positions or not.  What knowledge I have is confined to them.  I cannot think of others, other than themselves.

MR MOGADE: But were you present at any meetings with Mr Luthuli and various other people who you saw as Mr Luthuli's superiors in the hit squad hierarchy if you could put it like that?

DJ MKHIZE: I was talking about the first meeting where we had Capt Langeni.  I was present at that meeting.

MR MOGADE: Okay.  Could you turn to pg 91 of the record, which would be pg 19?

DJ MKHIZE: Pg 912, paragraph?

MR MOGADE: The paragraph right at the top, para 34.

DJ MKHIZE: Yes.

MR MOGADE: Okay.  Now about five lines from the bottom of that paragraph you say
"I informed him that I had to take him to Ulundi to introduce him to my superiors, referring to Dalokulu Luthuli, Maj Langeni, MZ Khumalo and Prince Gideon Zulu."

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, I'm still following.

MR MOGADE: Now to your mind were those people - Maj Langeni, MZ Khumalo and Prince Gideon Zulu - Mr Luthuli's superiors?

DJ MKHIZE: According to my knowledge these two, Dalokulu Luthuli and Maj Langeni were within the military force.  And the other three, Gideon Zulu and MZ Khumalo together with Robert Mzimela were politicians.  If you look at the military structure all over it is such that there is a commander who is on the military side, and he reports to the politicians.  Like ministers of certain departments, like Commissioner Fivaz has a superior above him and such as Sydney Mofamade.  That simply means the politician becomes the senior to the one in the military.

MR MOGADE: Yes, then the list of persons is what I wanted to know on that point.  Could we move on?  Okay.  Now during your evidence in chief you referred to various random and indiscriminate attacks on the residents of so-called ANC areas in Esikhawini.  For example attacks on bus stops and attacks on crowds which were walking around in ANC areas.  That would be pg 106 of the record.  That's an example.

DJ MKHIZE: Paragraph?

MR MOGADE: 64.

DJ MKHIZE: Please do not refer to the pages but instead use the paragraphs because our numbering is different.

MR MOGADE: Okay.  Then it would be pg 34 of your application and para 64.  Okay.  Now you say that Zwele Dlamini and yourself proceeded to H2 section which is an ANC area and members of the syndicate alighted from the kombi and you waited together with Zwele in the vehicle.  You heard shooting
"...and soon thereafter my colleagues returned and I took them to their house."

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOGADE: And were there not other incidents where you participated in random and indiscriminate attacks in ANC areas?

DJ MKHIZE: Are you saying incidents where I was not directly involved?  I don't follow the question.  Would you please repeat?

MR MOGADE: What I am saying Mr Mkhize is during your evidence in chief you referred to a number of incidents where members of the hit squad went into certain ANC areas and would fire randomly into crowds.  Incidents of that nature.

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, I know that I did mention that.  What is the question then?

MR MOGADE: My question is what was the political objective of those kinds of attacks?

DJ MKHIZE: I have explained before the Commission here that these indiscriminate attacks were conducted.  Even though there was a difference in our case we would sit down first, formulate a strategy, adopt it, agreed upon the strategy and we would agree on a strategy following reasons and possible ways in which the movement can benefit.
	I have also referred to incidents such as Mr Willi Nxunu where he testified in court to the fact that there is quiet at Esikhawini now that this person was in jail.  We had to establish as to how the movement was going to benefit if we launched such attacks.  And there had to be violence so that the Court should understand that the detaining or arrest of these two boys did not bring any change at Esikhawini.  That was the intention.
	And I have also explained how the organisation benefited.  Their incarceration dampened the spirit of the movement.

MR MOGADE: Thank you Mr Mkhize.  Mr Mkhize, could we now move on to the period after you were arrested in August 1993?  Okay, now during your evidence in chief you said that after the arrest in August '93 members of the IFP hit squad hierarchy, e.g. Maj Langeni and Mr MZ Khumalo, they failed to keep their promises to you to help you.  Is that correct?

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOGADE: After you were arrested you then subsequently through your girlfriend contacted Mr Dulokulu Luthuli in an attempt to help you get bail and organise legal representation.

DJ MKHIZE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOGADE: Did Mr Luthuli help you?

DJ MKHIZE: I wouldn't know whether he helped or not, because I would say I finally received legal assistance through the State.

MR MOGADE: Did Mr Luthuli advise you at a point to expose the truth about the hit squads to the Goldstone Commission?