Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-11

ADV BOSMAN: Did you drive the motor vehicle for Col Taylor?

JERRY J BROOKS: No, he drove his own vehicle.

ADV BOSMAN: I still find it strange that you had such a remote share in the matter and that you left without really having done anything.  Why did leave before Col Taylor, why did you return before him, and on your own as well?

JERRY J BROOKS: I don't understand the question.

ADV BOSMAN: You see, before the others you returned to your office, did Col Taylor give you the order to return?

JERRY J BROOKS: No, I returned the following day with the others to Pietermaritzburg.  We left in one vehicle for Pietermaritzburg.

ADV BOSMAN: In other words, did you return before or after the elimination of Mr Cele?

JERRY J BROOKS: After the abduction we went to the farm in Amsterdam and after that we returned to Pietermaritzburg the following morning, where in Pietermaritzburg we split up, Col Taylor and the others went to Elandskop and I remained in Pietermaritzburg.

ADV BOSMAN: Very well, that explains it then, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: So in other words, that night you spent at Amsterdam with everybody else?

JERRY J BROOKS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And during that time in Amsterdam itself, whilst the deceased was still there, you had no contact with him?

JERRY J BROOKS: I don't say I didn't have any contact with, I saw him and so forth, but I never spoke to him continuously or anything like that.  I saw him, I knew that he was in our presence.  We were very close to one another at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I mean personally you didn't engage in any conversation with him?

JERRY J BROOKS: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what I mean.  Thank you.  Arising out of all that, Mr Visser, are there any questions that you wish to put?

MR VISSER: No thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination of the man?

MR NEL: No thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Sorry Thabile, is there anything that you wish to ask arising out of the questions that have been put to him?

MS THABETHE: No, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Very well, thank you very much, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, that concludes my applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Gentlemen, before we start concluding these proceedings, you will recall that Mr Britz' client has not been heard and the letter I received from him yesterday.  I want to try and avoid postponing this hearing until he is heard and I'm going to conclude these hearings and if possible make a convenient day towards the end of this week or early next week just to enable Mr Britz and his client to be here, so that we can conclude his part of the evidence.  	Mr Visser, if you wish to address us you may please do so.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Mr Chairman, there's just one aspect outstanding and that is whether the family - I don't understand them to oppose the applications, but nevertheless they might wish to say something to you.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I've taken that into account.  You mean as far as the present application is concerned?

MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well are you likely to lead evidence?

MS THABETHE: Can I ask you to give me a second please, Mr Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: Take your time.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: If you require a little more time I am prepared to stand down to enable you to consult the people.

MS THABETHE: I'm indebted to you, Mr Chair, I would appreciate that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You will call us as soon as you are ready.

MS THABETHE: I will do so, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We will adjourn for a short while.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, I've met with the family.  I don't have any further witnesses.  I will address whatever needs to be addressed during argument.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  	Mr Chairman, if we may then go onto the argument in this matter.
	We act as we have stated before, for three applicants in this matter, Botha, Vorster and Wasserman, who apply for amnesty in regard to the incident of the abduction, murder and other issues accompanying that incident.
	Mr Chairman, you will recall when then amnesty process started we approached argument with great caution and very voluminously.  We have been able, Mr Chairman, because of events which have taken place since those early times, to shorten our argument dealing with the conflicts of the past, the political background and position of applicants who were members of the Security Forces.  I remember well, Mr Chairman, how you sat not too long ago, I believe it was in the Nietverdiendt 10 matter, listening to us again, where we fully argued - and I believe Mr Lax was a Commissioner in that same hearing, where you listened to us on the background yet again.  
	Chairperson, in the meantime there have been decisions, some of the original Amnesty Committee and some of other Amnesty Committees which followed subsequently, which have addressed some of the issues which we have mentioned during those past arguments which we presented to you.  We have one hitch, if I may call it that, in the present case and that is the introduction of a new Commissioner who has not had the discomfort of having to listen to me addressing her about that background.  And we were wondering how to perhaps get around that problem without have to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: She has in the meanwhile acquainted herself over the past with documents which deal with this kind of matter.

MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson, but I'm just worried that she might not have had the benefit of hearing what I have to say about it.  Chairperson, what has occurred to us ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I will come to your assistance in that regard, so you needn't worry too much about it.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  But what has occurred to us, Mr Chairman, is that back at the guesthouse I have on computer a summary which is a very abbreviated summary of what the original argument was in this regard, which I can print out and let Commissioner Bosman have tomorrow and perhaps during the course of the hearings where we won't repeat this again, she might put to me if there are any problems which she might have in that regard.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, I thank counsel for that suggestion, Chairperson.