Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-15

ANDRE RENIER SWART: The very first time yes, they told us to sit still and not do anything stupid and to take out our weapons, but when we attempted to do so, they realised naturally that they were giving us an opportunity and that is when they said wait, and they moved towards us and removed it themselves.

CHAIRPERSON: When they said wait, what did you do?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Then I left my weapon.

CHAIRPERSON: You left the weapon?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it in your holster on the right hand side of your uniform?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do with your hands then when they said leave it?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: I can't remember clearly, but I think I had my hands on the table or at my sides or on my legs.  I can't remember correctly.

CHAIRPERSON: Your hands were not in the air?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No.

CHAIRPERSON: But they were not in the proximity of your firearm?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the idea, did you want to lead the individuals to understand that you were adhering to the request to leave the weapons?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So they would be able to see that you were not actually busy taking out your weapon?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just take you.  The one with the revolver came towards you?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: With the revolver in his hand?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he hold it directly against your head?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he say anything to you?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, he didn't say anything to me.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he do then, after he had held the revolver against your head?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: The revolver was against my head and he took my firearm.  In the process of him removing my firearm, Constable Terreblanche jumped up.  There was a very short span of time between the taking out or removal of the pistol, and Constable Terreblanche jumping up.

CHAIRPERSON: Describe the holster, is it a closed kind of holster or do you just place the firearm in the holster?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: It was the type of holster that you close.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it closed?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, because when they asked us to remove the firearms, we opened up the holster and wanted to take them out.

CHAIRPERSON: So when he arrived at you, your holster was open?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So did he lift the firearm from the holster?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he have the firearm in his hand?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you standing?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, initially when they moved towards us and he held the gun towards my head, I sat down and it was only when Constable Terreblanche jumped up and overwhelmed his adversary that I automatically jumped up and grabbed the person's hands.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you sitting at the table?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: When he arrived at you, were your hands on the table?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That is correct yes, we might have been a little bit away from the table, because you must remember that we were watching TV, in other words the TV was approximately in the middle of the table, so our chairs would have been about half a metre away from the table.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is when Mr Terreblanche became involved in the struggle, and you jumped up?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: When you jumped up, did you attempt to grab the person who was with you?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: As far as I can recall, that was probably my reaction, to get the weapon away from my direction, but my attention was mostly focused on the struggle taking place between Constable Terreblanche and the other person.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you recall what the person who was with you, did after he removed the firearm from your holster, did he still have his firearm against your head or did he move away?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, when I jumped up, as far as I can recall, his weapon was no longer against my head because that was the objective with jumping up, I pushed it away from me.
	Exactly how, I can't recall any more.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you do anything more to the person who was with you, grab him or throw him over, anything like that?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: You think about it afterwards and you think it over and you think well, I could have done this at that point, but at that moment, I didn't think about anything like that.

CHAIRPERSON: So what you did indeed do was to try to rise up?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: I stood up completely.

CHAIRPERSON: You stood up and your idea was to grab the person?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you succeed or did all of these things happen before you could even have attempted?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: I must have grabbed his hands, but as I said, from the point of doing that, until when the shot was fired and I jumped away was a very short span of time took place, so I didn't really struggle with the person.
	It was a question of me jumping up, grabbing his hands, the shot going off and me diving away.

CHAIRPERSON: So everything basically happened in a very short span of time?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, let's look at the situation with Mr Terreblanche and the other person.
	You noticed that he was struggling with the second person?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see whether that second person had taken Mr Terreblanche's firearm?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: I wouldn't say yes I saw him physically taking the weapon.  No, I wouldn't be able to say that with clarity.

CHAIRPERSON: You are not certain or can you be of assistance in telling us where Mr Terreblanche's firearm was when he began to struggle with the second person?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you notice any firearm in Mr Terreblanche's hands?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you notice whether the other person also held a firearm against Mr Terreblanche's head?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: When they entered the room, his firearm was aimed at Constable Terreblanche, if that is what you mean, but during the struggle, I would not be able to say with certainty.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't notice before the struggle ensued, whether the other person was also holding a firearm against Constable Terreblanche's head?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the other person very close to him?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, he was also with him.

CHAIRPERSON: You noticed that there was a struggle, and then at a certain stage the lights also went out?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a light switch?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: The light switch was at the door, and that is where the struggle took place, at the door.  It was approximately chest height, the switch.  And during the struggle, they switched the light off.

CHAIRPERSON: It was a regular switch?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The type that you press?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So it must have happened during their struggle?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you recall whether this was before the first shot was fired?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, I can't recall.

CHAIRPERSON: You cannot recall whether or not it was still light when you dived into the other room?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, I can't.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that as far as you can recall, two shots were fired?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: As far as I can recall, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Could it have been more than two, could it have been three for example?