Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-05

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, just may I chip in, just to put some of these things in perspective, the congress.  I agree with him there was a year before the negotiations, Johnson Mlambo flew in, there was that problem.  Now in December before the suspension, there was a conference, where a decision was taken Chairperson by the PAC that the leadership is given mandate to suspend the arms struggle when it's opportune to do so and Chairperson, I think I've done in many of these hearings, that it was specific that before the announcement is made, the leadership had to consult all the Commanders and come to an agreement.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, but let me just finish putting what I'm putting there.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson I want to, when you are putting, so that you may cover, just for the sake of time.  Chairperson, I want also to put into perspective that definitely as he put it, there were members of the High Command inside and they were outside and they have to do damage control and in terms of their system, they have to contact the inter High Command which was responsible to tell the cadres to stop.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  No but what I was getting at, I was just saying that negotiations had been concluded, Interim Constitution was in place, elections were around the corner, everybody knew that those elections would result in a new dispensation, it was quite obvious to everyone, there was no question about that, so January the 16th, the announcement that APLA was to cease operations really you know, that far advanced in the political developments of the day, didn't I'm sure to most people, come as a surprise because things were in place now waiting for the election.  What's the big surprise?  Did they expect to carry on war after the elections, or what?

XOLISWA CLIFFORD PONI: Fortunately in front of me here I have a picture of - he was in the camp on that specific day and that was 1993 and here he said and he told our soldiers specifically here that PAC can only consider abandoning the bullet in overthrowing the regime when the ballot is secured.  Those are politics now.  When do you consider the ballot is secured or when not do you consider the ballot is secured?  So then to - maybe myself I would understand the political terms and all, but a soldier, a foot soldier down there, he took this very literally without the necessary political space to accommodate.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Any questions arising Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Heever?

MR VAN DER HEEVER: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER HEEVER

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No questions Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Colonel, thank you very much.  That concludes your testimony.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson that's the evidence of the applicants.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Heever.

MR VAN DER HEEVER: I do not intend calling any witnesses, thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van der Heever.  Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No witnesses Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  That then brings the evidence in this matter to a conclusion and all that remains now is to receive submissions from the legal representatives.  Mr Mbandazayo.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Chairperson.
	Chairperson, I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.  Before you proceed, sorry.  We did, as a Committee, receive a letter from Mr and Mrs Pypers who are the parents of the victim who was shot or captured at Ebenezer and shot near Moria.   In this letter they basically express the view that they believe that it was robbery etc, but they do conclude by saying that they will leave the decision as to whether amnesty be granted or not in our hands.  Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
	Chairperson, definitely this time I won't take - I know I usually say I'll be short - at least Col Poni has canvassed most of the points I would have to canvass in my argument.
	Chairperson the requirements of the Act, I need not go through them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we know the provisions of the Act inside out, I can assure you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, there is no dispute that the applicants were members of the PAC and the first applicant, that he was a member of the Azanian People's Liberation Army, APLA.  There is no dispute there, Chairperson.  It's common cause.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mbandazayo, can that really be said about applicant number two?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, what I'm saying is that he was a member of PAC and that, Chairperson, because he was a member of PAC, definitely Chairperson he falls under that ...(indistinct) before he can be a member of APLA, he has to be a member of PAC, so definitely he would not have been involved in the activities of APLA without being a member of PAC.
	Now, Chairperson, as you have heard from Col Poni, that because he was used as part of APLA operatives of that unit, so definitely in that technically he was a member of APLA though he was not trained because he was used as a driver in that, so he participated in the structures of APLA but he was not a fully trained member of APLA, but of course as a member of PAC, he was involved.
	Now, Chairperson, since there's no dispute about that, Chairperson another requirement that - one of the requirements that he belonged to a bona fide..., and there's no doubt about that.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have to be a member, you can be a supporter.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson.
	The second point, Chairperson, is the full disclosure, whether they have disclosed their involvement.  Chairperson, from what I've gathered even under cross-examination, there's no dispute as to how they did what - how they did the act they did, that is how they killed the Bouwer family and the Pypers family.  It seems as if there's no dispute about that as to how they did it.  It seems as if there's an agreement that the way they put it before the Committee as to how they did it, now it seems to me that, Chairperson, that they have made a full disclosure with regard to their participation with regard to this incident.
	Now, the other aspect is whether what they did was politically motivated.  Chairperson, it's my submission that there is no dispute that Moses Motapo, Chairperson, Morapapa as he is commonly known, was a member of APLA and he was a Senior Commander of APLA.
	Chairperson, I don't want to go much about Moses Motapo Chairperson,  I know that this name has come in many of the hearings, the operation in which it was ...(indistinct), where he was given orders.  Even Chairperson last week, his name cropped up in the hearing in Johannesburg where he was mentioned as Morapapa, they did not know and I informed the Committee that it is Moses Motapo.  Chairperson there is no dispute that he was a Senior Commander of APLA and as Col Poni put it, he was tasked to perform certain duties.  Chairperson and those duties he was tasked to perform, he had to perform them in the Northern Province.  He is saying that he was given a very much bigger mandate Chairperson, as everybody knows in this Committee and that's the reason ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, sorry to interrupt you Mr Mbandazayo, but about that, just on that point, the first applicant, Mr Mhlongo said that they were told to operate in East Rand.  He said they were very upset and they didn't want to do it and they didn't agree and then they basically like took it upon themselves to go to Northern Province to get out of the people in the East Rand, that's what he said.