Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: What I would like to indicate, if you look at 
page 5 of Sishaba, page 415 of the record, just underneath where it 
says forward freedom, we have seen them attacking the community 
councillors and the informers.

ADV FORD: I see, so there is no reference at all to this specific 
incident that you are referring to?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And similarly annexure 9 at page 419 ... 
(intervention)

ADV BOOYENS: If I may assist my learned friend, Mr Chairman, 
nowhere in the annexures does it refer to the specific one.  I have 
checked that as well.

ADV FORD: Well, then perhaps, Mr Nieuwoudt you can explain 
what the reason for annexing them, was?  They appear to have been 
annexed with specific reference to this incident?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, what it deals with is the death of the 
informers and as I have already explained, the unrest and riots which 
had been and the establishment of underground structures, the 
mobilisation and the politicisation of the masses and the people's 
war which eventually took place.

ADV FORD: I see, so none of these annexures are of any 
assistance in identifying the leak which occurred in the Security 
Branch neither are they of any assistance in dealing with the issue of 
whether Mgoduka was involved at all?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Then I will ask you to turn to page 323, Mr 
Nieuwoudt, and to the second portion of paragraph 13.  "It was 
clear that it was Warrant Officer Mgoduka or it had to have been 
Warrant Officer Mgoduka", and I emphasise had to have been.  You 
are not referring to a suspicion, you are referring to a certainty.  It 
was clear that it must have been him, am I right?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Why was it so clear?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Because it was only the two of us who had 
knowledge of that operation.

ADV FORD: Was there not a possibility that this source could 
have made a slip up of his own in his undercover position and could 
have been identified for other reasons?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is possible, but I had applied the 
necessary security measures.

ADV FORD: No, no, no, that is a general term which is not going 
to assist you, what does that mean Mr Nieuwoudt?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I applied the necessary security measures and I 
was certain that it didn't come from my side.  I believed that it came 
from Mgoduka's side, that is what I believed.

ADV FORD: Why?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Because that source had been eliminated.

ADV FORD: But then I return to my question, why couldn't it have 
been possible that he made his own slip up?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is possible, one can't exclude that 
possibility.

ADV FORD: Why then did you say that it was clear that it must 
have been Warrant Officer Mgoduka.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I repeat, I believed that I had applied all the 
necessary security measures in dealing with an informer and I was of 
the view and believed, that that was the position.

ADV FORD: And this was the starting point which led to the 
execution of Mr Mgoduka at a later stage?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct, yes, that was the prior events.

ADV FORD: On the following page Mr Nieuwoudt, you say in the 
light of this, I was uncertain whether he could have been the source 
of this leak.  It was however, noticeable that during the riot period, 
his home was never attacked, even though he lived amongst his 
colleagues who did indeed suffer during these attacks.  The vehicle 
which he drove, was also not attacked.  Where did he live Mr 
Nieuwoudt?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: In Mabiza Street, New Brighton.

ADV FORD: Are you certain of that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: My instructions are that he lived in KwaMagxaki?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That was only at a later stage.

ADV FORD: When was that Mr Nieuwoudt?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: After KwaMagxaki had been developed, he 
then bought the house.

ADV FORD: Well, that seems to follow, I am asking you when that 
was Mr Nieuwoudt?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I can't give you an exact date, but it was only 
at a later stage.

ADV FORD: Well, what you are saying is that - let me ask you 
this, how long had he been living in KwaMagxaki?  Can you tell us 
that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That was probably from 1987 onwards, but I 
am not entirely certain.

ADV FORD: So for a period of at least one and a half years, he 
had been living in KwaMagxaki?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: KwaMagxaki was a reasonably upper class area?  Is 
that a fair statement to make?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And a number of policemen lived there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: None of them had any problems in so far as attacks of 
their houses were concerned, is that right?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Not there.

ADV FORD: And the real suspicion about Mr Mgoduka, the first 
indication occurred in July 1989?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: And you had no indication that before that he was in 
any way putting out feelers or in any way involved with conveying 
information to the ANC?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Correct.

ADV FORD: Well then why would the absence of attacks on his 
house in that period, when there were no attacks on other policemen 
in the area, have played any role whatsoever?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, because before the development of 
KwaMagxaki the other Security Police homes had been attacked, his 
home was never attacked.  And that was strange and I can remember 
that before that he had lived next door to an ANC activist who had 
been involved in the recruitment of people and distribution of 
pamphlets, it was quite some time earlier, and he didn't give us that 
information when he was in Mabiza Street.

ADV FORD: And when did you find that out Mr Nieuwoudt?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That was early in the 1980's.

ADV FORD: I am sorry, when you found it out?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: When it came to our notice, yes.

ADV FORD: So are you saying that long before 1989, you 
suspected Mr Mgoduka's loyalty or you questioned it?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, it didn't arise with me.  We must take into 
account that some of my sources had been eliminated much earlier, 
which he had been involved, so it all gave rise and contributed to the 
final phase in which there was recruitment and so forth.

ADV FORD: I see.  Mr Nieuwoudt, you then carry on in paragraph 
14 about your discussion which you then immediately went to 
discuss the matter with Brigadier Gilbert and you say the fear 
existed that other undercover operations as well as safe houses and 
premises would be exposed.  Is that right?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Now, the Intelligence Unit of which you were the 
Commander, had only been on the go for a month at that stage, is 
that right?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: Presumably you hadn't developed any real number of 
safe houses and what do you refer to them as facilities with respect 
to your specific Unit?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct, but the Unit had already 
existed in 1988.  I further developed it and got it off the ground.  
Captain Van Vuuren had told me that there were safe premises 
available at the time.

ADV FORD: Now, when we refer to a safe premises, I presume 
you refer to no more than a house which is presumably rented with 
no reference to the police, there is no involvement of the Security 
Branch in so far as the public are aware in relation to that house?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV FORD: So to replace a safe house, is really no more than 
terminating that rental and finding another one, is that right?