Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-07

MR STRYDOM: After you left the fifth house, and you were now on your way to Slovo Park, can you give any indication as to the route that you followed now to get to Slovo Park?  Did you carry straight on in that same street, did you make a turn somewhere, or can you give any indication?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We proceeded right through the same street.  There is one main taxi route, and we proceeded towards the hostel.  We proceeded towards the mixed sex hostel, and we proceeded towards Sharkville or Sharpeville where there is a clump of trees and we got out of the township.

MR STRYDOM: I just wanted to know, from the place where you went into the houses, you say you carried right through to Slovo Park, is that right?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.  From the last house that I shot in, there is a main route, a taxi route, and there is a big shop around there, as well as a taxi rank.   We proceeded as if we were going towards Sharpeville, but before we got there, there is a clump of trees and there are a lot of shacks around there and that was Slovo Park.

MR STRYDOM: So you went passed the shops and a taxi rank on your way to Slovo Park?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, we did.

MR STRYDOM: And these shops you refer to, are they more or less in the middle of Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, there are houses around, and there is also this hostel in Boipatong that I referred to.  There is also a taxi rank nearby.  We then took the route towards Sharpeville.  There are a lot of trees around there, as well as shacks.  That is where we arrived at.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something Mr Strydom.  Did I hear you correctly that you went on one road the whole way through, you didn't go off that road?  You stayed on the same road the whole way through?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No,  I said we took that street and we turned somewhere and took the route, the taxi route and before you come to the Boipatong hostel, there is a taxi rank as well as a big shop.  We proceeded on the route towards Sharpeville and before you get there, there is a clump of trees, and a lot of shacks, that is the spot at which we arrived.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know where the park is in Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I will be telling a lie.

MR STRYDOM: What happened when you arrived in Slovo Park?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: People were fired at, some were stabbed with spears and some were hacked with axes.  But we shot at them as well.

MR STRYDOM: How many people did you fire at, at Sharpeville?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I do not remember.

MR STRYDOM: Sorry, I said Sharpeville, that is Slovo Park, sorry.  Peens, did he fire any shots?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I will be telling a lie.  I don't know, I last saw him firing on the streets in the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you are now in Slovo Park, where are the casspirs at this stage?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The casspirs were travelling with us.  I did see them in Slovo Park, because we were on foot, and they were in our company, they were accompanying us.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you, from the very first house, the casspir in which you were ...

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it was always accompanying us, it was driving slowly along the road, and the people in the casspir, were shooting at people fleeing in the streets.

CHAIRPERSON: And then when you proceeded to Slovo Park, it also went to Slovo Park?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it was driving slowly with us, until we arrived at Slovo Park.

CHAIRPERSON: At the fifth house, to go to Slovo Park, the casspir also went with you to Slovo Park?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the rest of the people in your group, did they remain in Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We all went to Slovo Park.

CHAIRPERSON: Did somebody say well, "let's go to Slovo Park", or was it just an individual decision?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember, but somebody did state that we should go to Slovo Park.

CHAIRPERSON: After the fifth house, someone said "let's go to Slovo Park?"

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying that it is possible that it happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Or someone didn't?  Did someone say right, "let's now go to Slovo Park"?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember, but we did proceed to Slovo Park.

CHAIRPERSON: What made you  go to Slovo Park?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They said we should go to Slovo Park?

CHAIRPERSON: So someone said "let's go to Slovo Park?"

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said yes, there is somebody who stated that, but I do not remember who.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you went to Slovo Park, together with the casspirs?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: On your way to Slovo Park, was that hostel you referred to, attacked?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was attacked on our way from Slovo Park, people who were standing outside the hostel, were shot at.

MR STRYDOM: Did you shoot people at that hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not.  I only fired shots in the township and in Slovo Park.

MR STRYDOM: But isn't the hostel also in the township?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is in the township.  It is a mixed sex hostel.

MR STRYDOM: I want to refer you to paragraph 21 on page 21 of the statement.  It reads as follows
"... we walked through the township attacking houses, on the way to Slovo Park, which was  squatter camp on one side of the township, we also attacked a hostel.  There were most women in the hostel."
	It was stated here that on the way to Slovo Park, you attacked the hostel, and not on your way back.  What is the truth now?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I deny that.  The hostel was the last place to be attacked on our way from Slovo Park.

MR STRYDOM: And then it reads
"... we continued the shooting in Slovo Park."
	So clearly what you wanted to say in this statement was that you attacked the hostel before you got to Slovo Park.  Is it again just a wrong statement?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I deny what is contained in that statement.  The hostel was the last place to be attacked, on our way from Slovo Park.

CHAIRPERSON: When you are going to Slovo Park, did you have to go passed the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it was on our side and we turned in the opposite direction, but on our way from Slovo Park we went passed the hostel, and people were shot at there.

MR STRYDOM: How many people did you kill at the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I stated that I did not shoot anyone at the hostel.  I last fired my gun in Slovo Park, I did not fire at anyone in the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: And the other people with you, did they fire shots at people which you could see, injured or killed people at the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, some of them did shoot directing their shots towards the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: And you in fact saw people falling down?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did see them although I did not fire shots personally, but I did see people falling down.

MR STRYDOM: I will check my notes, but if my memory serves me correctly, under cross-examination of my learned friend, you said that you killed people at the hostel.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did not kill anyone at the hostel.  I only fired shots in the township houses in Boipatong and as well as at Slovo Park, I did not shoot at anyone at the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: And you gave a description of how you saw the people falling over at the hostel, do you remember that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I stated that I did see people falling down at the hostel, but I did not shoot.

MR STRYDOM: Let me ask you, in Slovo Park, could this casspir move around amongst these houses?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The casspir did enter Slovo Park and it parked there.  There is a road towards Sharpeville, a dirt road, so the casspir could travel along that road.