Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: No in no way at all.  This case was investigated absolutely on a criminal basis and politics I avoided and I didn't want to involve that in the case. And I could also further state that nobody at all influenced me and during my investigation on many occasions I was accompanied by Advocate van Vuuren who dealt with the Richardson case prosecution.

MP PIGOU: Between 1991 when consultations were held between Mr Chris van Vuuren with the Sonos and Michael Siakamela and himself in relation to possible similar fact evidence being led in the Stompie trial are you aware of any investigations, or let me put it more clearly, have you, as the investigating officer, in the Lolo Sono case conducted any further investigations into the disappearance of Lolo Sono?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I can tell you what I did in the investigation into Mr Lolo Sono.  After I had received the case for investigation I took statements from the father, Mr Sono, and Mr Shabalala and I went and discussed the statements with them and I determined there that the present Mrs Sono was not the biological mother of Lolo.  I traced the biological mother because we had hoped that she might be able to give us some information with regard to where Lolo found himself at the time, but she was not able to assist us.
 I distributed photographs to all the mortuaries and among colleagues and police stations of both these two persons so that should they possibly be seen they could report to me.  I even went as far as to have the photographs placed on television and I added my name and where I could be contacted.  However nothing came of this.  Nobody was able to give me any feedback in this regard. 
 During the search of Mrs Mandela's house, and I would like you to understand it in this context, I had two cases which were running virtually in parallel.  All the investigations which I did in the Stompie Seipei case were always accompanied in the back of my mind in the investigation by the Sono and Shabalala cases in the investigations and when I was investigating the one case I tried, the Seipei case, I tried to find traces of whether they had been on the premises themselves.  I found clothing of Maxwell Madondo who had also died.  I found an identity document of a certain Mr Chili, whom I determined was the son of Mrs Chili.  I found their clothing and books of Mr Cebekhulu, so what I am trying to tell you is that never was that case set aside that I didn't look at it while I was doing my other work.  
 I was to continue during 1995, I don't have the exact date that I went to see Mrs Shabalala on 27.3.95 during a normal routine visit to her house and then she reported to me that on the 5th of October 1994 that night three members of the South African Police arrived at her home, they were three white members and they were dressed in uniform.  They travelled in a white Volkswagen Golf, the registration number was unknown, but she said she was frightened too much to take the number.  She did not ask the members to identify themselves. They showed her a photograph of Sono and informed her that he was deceased and that she had to take an amount of money to Pretoria to have his body exhumed.  Now you have to note this happened quite a few months after the event.  Mrs Shabalala never reported this incident to me.  I returned to my office, I have a letter which is available should you wish to see this, it was addressed to my district commissioner in which I requested that a circular had to be sent to all the district commissioners in the country to enquire whether who these three persons had been who had brought the message about the death to Mrs Shabalala, but to the present nobody came to the fore with that information.

MP PIGOU: I just want to raise with you one point because Mrs Shabalala has raised about these incidents with us in the TRC and the incident on the 5th of October, but in relation to the visit from yourself I am going to read from her statement, it's just one paragraph.  It says
"After Mrs Sono appeared on TV and she had mentioned my son's disappearance W/O Moodley and Capt Dempsey and other policemen unknown to me came to my house to question me - "what nonsense is this now because we have told you that your Sibuniso is dead".  Capt Dempsey took Sibuniso's photos which was given to me by the police who came to tell me about his death and he has never been back to me again".
Our understanding is that the nature of the visit by yourself was not a cordial one, perhaps you would like to comment on Mrs Shabalala's comments?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: I find that quite strange. This case was really close to my heart, I am also a father of children and many nights I wondered how those parents were to go to bed without knowing where their children were, whether they had food, whether they had a roof over their heads, whether they had been injured or whether they had been killed, and if that had been Mrs Shabalala's impression it was entirely incorrect.  I had very sincere compassion and sympathy with Mr Sono and Mrs Shabalala and in all honesty I tried my utmost best to trace those two children.  I even went so far, perhaps I neglected mentioning that during a previous question but I went through the security police and tried to find out whether they were outside the country for training because Mr Sono and I thought perhaps they had fled the country to undergo training outside the country but even this was without success.

MP PIGOU: Just quickly to confirm, I can see you are looking at me Arch with those eyes to finish with this witness and I will do it as promptly as I can, just to confirm that you sent a fax to me today of a copy of a receipt for the investigation docket into the disappearance or kidnapping I believe it was, the kidnapping docket of Lolo Sono and Anthony Sibuniso Shabalala, Meadowlands, MR236/11/88, did you send this fax to me with your own name on the top and signature from I believe it is Colonel Henk Hesslinga dated the 10th of May 1995?

FREDERICK HENDRIK DEMPSEY: Ja that is correct.  You asked me also to send a covering letter but it doesn't seem as if you wish to believe me.

MP PIGOU: Sorry Superintendent Dempsey I have the covering letter here as well, thank you.
 One last question for Superintendent Dempsey and then I am finished.  I am just returning briefly to Captain Jan Potgieter and Captain Potgieter has provided this Commission with a statement and I feel I want to read a certain portion of it.  I will be brief though, there's a small section in which he talks about the information that you have referred to given by Temba Mabota also known as George, and that he says that -
".... he conveyed the said information regarding the murder of Stompie Seipei to Capt Dempsey of Soweto Murder and Robbery and requested him preferably not to use him as a witness as I was planning to use him as a witness against Mrs Mandela.  My request was adhered to, the Seipei case was eventually completed successfully without George's testimony and Richardson was sentenced to death for the murder".
It then goes on for a couple of paragraphs down there he says -
"At one stage I handed..."
this is Captain Jan Potgieter from the Security Branch -
"At one stage I handed an interim report regarding the said investigation, this is Seipei, to the attorney general Advocate Klaus von Lieres, however he informed me that Mr Nelson Mandela would probably be released shortly and he therefore did not see his way open to institute any prosecution of Mrs Mandela.  Despite this the security branch headquarters Pretoria ordered me to continue the investigation and then submit a complete docket to the attorney general for his decision".
Are you aware that the Security Branch were conducting a parallel investigation or were you aware?