Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-20

MR P DE CASTRO: Well it depends on the manner of the crime.  I mean I'm not a detective, I'm not in the police force to be able to separate whichever is crime and whichever is not crime.

MR MALAN: Mr Mbandazayo may I just ask you.  Is it not common cause that the evidence of your clients is that it was political, based on instructions that this witness is not challenging that, he's simply giving his impression of the robbery itself, that it was not political and we're arguing now sort of political disposition.  Is it really relevant whatever he would say here could it detract from your client's case or are you saying because his impression was they asked for money and therefore it was criminal, that that should be seriously taken into account by the Amnesty Committee in deciding the evidence of your clients.  It feels as if, for me I'm saying to you ... (inaudible)
	What I'm really saying, just for the record, if we should decide for instance that we find it to have been a robbery with no political motive, can we at all be influenced by opinions of this witness or any other witness for that matter, shouldn't we deduct our opinions from the facts before us?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman I'm not trying to say that the Committee will be influenced but you came up, fortunately I was trying to wrap my cross ... (intervention)

MR MALAN: Sorry.

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...(inaudible) examination coming to the point, my final point on this aspect regarding where I was getting at.  Mr De Castro are you a Christian?

MR P DE CASTRO: Yes I am.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And is it true that in church you are told that you must forgive those who ...(indistinct)?

MR P DE CASTRO: Yes we do.  We do read about that every day.  I read it every day on my Bible.  When I go to church I hear that all the time, but in certain occasions or it's sometimes hard to forgive you know.

MR MBANDAZAYO: No I do understand that and that you have strong feeling about this incident because you lost your wife and also that you were forced to separate with you children to stay with their in-laws.

MR P DE CASTRO: That's right.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And that it makes you bitter.

MR P DE CASTRO: It would have made anybody bitter.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you are bitter.

MR P DE CASTRO: That's right.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And that's the reason why you have such strong words regarding this incident?

MR P DE CASTRO: That's true.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now finally, now that you heard the applicants here saying the reason why they attack your supermarket, you may not agree with them, I'm not saying you agree I know your point.  Now you have your feelings and you know and you are saying you have put your position.  Now that you have heard them, not necessary that you agree with them, you have heard them that we did this because of we were instructed and we were acting on the orders of our political organisation or APLA to raise funds and also was whites were our target because they were our oppressors.  Now what's your feeling after you have heard that?

MR P DE CASTRO: My feeling is that I'm not clear that these guys are sorry about what they did.  They've shown no remorse during their evidence here or for what they did.  They are still laughing, they think they're heros for what they did you know, and to my knowledge you know, to take another human being's life into your hands, that's not a joke, that's an ultimatum in life we've all, whether you're black, white, pink, red, have got a reason and they've got a right to live.
	If you're wrong in life there must be justice that will take you out of the communities, out of the societies and put you away because you don't deserve to be there.  And it's clear to me that these guys they didn't even know, some of them say that it was for politics, some of them say that it was money that they wanted. 
	On their statements some of them says that they went there because the owner of the supermarket was the Chairperson of the AWB.  When they came here then they denied it they say no we didn't say that man is a Chairperson of the AWB, we went there because we want to kill whites, but that shop indeed, it's frequented, by even more than 90% of the customers of that supermarket is black.  
	Even when I got back yesterday and the day before a lot of the black people of the community came to me says Peter, oppose their applications, these guys were not acting politically, they wanted to rob your place man.  Now what do we assume from all these things?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I have heard what you are saying.  In essence what you are saying is that they are not showing any remorse so that's the reason you are saying that you are opposing the amnesty?

MR P DE CASTRO: Well I'm opposing the amnesty for (1) that I want justice to be done at the end of the day.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you know Mr Van der Ross?

MR P DE CASTRO: Van der Ross, not at all.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay maybe I'm putting wrong.  Do you know the Town Clerk of or the Mayor of ...(indistinct) at the time?

MR P DE CASTRO: Mr Ross?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes.

MR P DE CASTRO: Yes I know him very well.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you know that he made a statement after the incident?  There was in the newspaper regarding that incident?

MR P DE CASTRO: I'm not aware of that statement.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That that was a terrorist attack?

MR P DE CASTRO: I wouldn't know.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you also know that after that incident APLA claimed responsibility of that attack in your supermarket?

MR P DE CASTRO: Well to my knowledge they never did, APLA never accepted responsibility for that incident at Wesselsbron Supermarket.  I've waited and waited and the police waited to hear who was responsible for it and nobody every came out and said we're responsible for that, no one did that.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And also is it ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you accepting this was an official acceptance of responsibility which is not being continued before this hearing.  Nobody has appeared before us on behalf of APLA to accept responsibility have they, (inaudible)?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman I'm not saying somebody came here, I'm was saying tat in the newspaper.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it an official statement made by APLA, I am asking you?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, that's what I'm saying Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you seen the report?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman not now, I don't have the clippings now Mr Chairman, but Mr Chairman I don't have problem that that can be done.

MR MALAN: The difficulty is Mr Mbandazayo, that wasn't put by any of the applicants.  It wasn't part of the evidence and you're cross examining on something which we don't have before us, which wasn't put before us and I really don't think that's ... (intervention)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman I'm not saying to the it was put before, I was just asking for the opinion whether he did come across that and he said no Mr Chairman.  I don't think this is an issue Mr Chairman, I was just asking him whether he'd come across that.

MR MALAN: You're not ...(indistinct) that they in indeed did accept responsibility, or are you?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman according to my information I have, that is why I'm saying that ... (intervention)

MR MALAN: But why didn't you lead that evidence Mr Mbandazayo?

CHAIRPERSON: If you have such information why hasn't it been put before us?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, Mr Chairman it's not easy Mr Chairman because I'm getting information in drips and drabs.  I've said Mr Chairman many a times that this things comes to me in dribs and drabs and I'm trying to conduct, I'm doing the case, they come in dribs and drabs Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: You have our sympathy.  Our problem is just we're also getting it in dribs and drabs now.