Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-10

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai, just refer to paragraph five at page 146 in front of you.  Will you agree with me that you did not mention the name of Mr Ngo in your paragraph five as a co-perpetrator?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I did not mention his name.

MR VISSER: Was Mr Ngo in, according to your evidence today, a co-perpetrator or not?
MR MEMANI OBJECTS

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, that is a question of law on which the witness cannot be expected to answer.  He has told us, in his application, that he and Mamome ... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: It is not a question of law, he can tell us factually what happened.

ADV MEMANI: He has told us that.  He said he was watching the car and he and Mamome burnt the car, they burnt the house.

CHAIRPERSON: And if he thought he was not, that he was a co-conspirator, he can be asked why he did not mention him in his application.

ADV MEMANI: What I am saying is if he wants to do that, he must do it in less higher terms than those that he is using.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: What is your reply to the question, Mr Ngo, Mr Motsamai?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I did not mention him there, because I did not know this gentleman. I did not know where this gentleman worked, but he stayed with us at the office.

MR VISSER: You see, Mr Motsamai, I fully agree with you.  That is exactly what the impression was that I got from you and that coincides with the instructions which I have.  Let me explain to you what happened, because, clearly, you are still confused about it and many people are.
	Mr Ngo applied to be admitted as a policeman and he took the oath at a station on the 11th of March 1986.  Then he had to wait to be accommodated in the police training college for the second intake, the second annual intake which is in July.  In the meantime, as happens with all of you fellows that apply, he became temporarily employed as, I think they call it, a student constable. Are you in agreement with me so far?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And because, in fact, he was placed on the staff, the personnel of Bhatu police station, we know that from the records, and did you want to make a comment?  Did you ... (intervention).

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I am listening to your question.

MR VISSER: Oh.  And because he had been an informer there was a request that he should serve here at the security branch in Bloemfontein for certain specific tasks.  Namely, continuation of information and pointing out of people whom he knew and that is what he was doing in Bloemfontein, Mr Motsamai, and that is why you did not understand and why, what he was doing there.  Would you agree with that explanation?  Does that seem to you a logical explanation?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is how they put it to you and how you explain it, but I do not accept this, because this gentleman, Ngo, worked with us all over we went.  I do not know how they explained to you.

MR VISSER: Well, but just a moment ago, Mr Motsamai, you explained to this Committee that you could not understand what he was doing.  Is that not what you said?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: How he, how Mamome brought him to us.  That is how it is.  How Mamome brought him in the car to us.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Motsamai, I am not going to make too much of it, but you said just a moment ago, your words were I did not know him, I did not know where he worked, but be that as it may.  Are, do you consider that Ngo went along with you that night as a co-perpetrator, it does not matter what he did, he looked after the car, he threw a bomb, it does not matter what he did, but he was part of the group that went to attack the motor car of Jani Mohapi.  Is that how you understood it to be?
MR MEMANI OBJECTS

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, in all fairness to the witness, the evidence was that Ngo was not even told that City Mzuzwana's house was going to be attacked.  He was told a lie about the objective of the whole operation.  While it may be perfect to ask him why he does not mention him there, it is another to disregard all those facts when putting the question to him.

CHAIRPERSON: He has, first of all, got to say he thought he was one of the party before you can ask why do you not mention him.  That is the purpose of the questioning.  Carry on Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: For the third time I am going to try to elicit an answer out of you.  Mr Motsamai, did you consider that Mr Ngo was part of the party that went that evening to go and attack the motor vehicle of Jani Mohapi?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He was not a part of the group.  As we went there Mamome told me that he did not tell Ngo where we were going and he did not know that we were going to attack Jani Mohapi's motor vehicle.

MR VISSER: Strangely enough, Mr Motsamai, Mr Ngo has applied for amnesty in bundle C, page 12, (e), what seems to be this very incident.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is how he applied for amnesty there, but when we attacked Jani Mohapi's motor vehicle where we were, he was not present even there where we left him at the car, he did not know.  Maybe that is what he discovered afterwards, after some days when we patrolled in cars and he saw that Jani Mohapi's car burnt and he concluded that this was Boysi's work.

MR VISSER: Yes, all right.  Well, let us ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: You took a tyre with you, did you not?  In the car?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, we took the tyre.  Mamome took the car out of the boot and we pushed it to that vehicle.

ADV DE JAGER: You had paper and you had petrol?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: So, you would take that out of the car?  Did he notice you taking it out?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I would say so.  He saw the tyre, the motor vehicle tyre and the papers, but he did not know what we were going to do.

ADV DE JAGER: And he saw you taking the petrol?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Would you suggest he could have thought that is a spare wheel you are going to put on somewhere?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, I cannot tell, maybe that is what he thought that it was a motor vehicle spare wheel or he thought that these two security policeman were going to do something.

CHAIRPERSON: What reference did you give to Ngo' application?

MR VISSER: Bundle C, Mr Chairman, page 12, (d) for donkey.  You see while the honourable Chair is reading I may put it to you that in his application he says
"... I...",
that is Ngo,
"... I petrol bombed a Ford Cortina belonging to Jani Mohapi ..."
MR MEMANI OBJECTS

ADV MEMANI: Now, Mr Chairman, this is not a fair reading of the sentence.  The sentence starts at the beginning of, next to the letter "d".  It says,
"Within the course of two weeks the team consisting of Sergeant Mamome, Constable Motsamai, Constable Mtyala and I petrol bombed a Ford Cortina belonging to Jani Mohapi, a mini-bus belonging to Elia Mohapi.  All the cars, vehicles were petrol bombed under the instructions and command of Colonel Coetzee".

MR VISSER: And my question is that he said ... (intervention).

ADV MEMANI: I am still speaking, Mr Visser.  It is not clear whether he is saying that on each occasion he was present.  It is a reference to a team which operated over a certain period of time and we may go by what Ngo said in his evidence here.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Visser ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Could you have a look at page 12, please, of Mr Ngo's application.  Mr Ngo states,
"Within the course of two weeks the team consisting of Mamome, Constable Motsamai, Constable Mtyala and I ..."
that is Ngo,
"... petrol bombed the cars of Jani Mohapi, a mini-bus of Elia Mohapi and all the cars were petrol bombed on the instructions of Colonel Coetzee".
Were you involved in all those incidents?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I was involved in these incidents of the two cars.