Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-11

MR BERGER: In other words it was at a time when, even on his own evidence, Vanana Zulu was in the hostel?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I don't understand as to whom you are referring, the person who was giving evidence.

MR BERGER: Let's just go to the meeting which was held three weeks before the attack, Vanana Zulu was at that meeting, correct?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: ...[indistinct] was there.

MR BERGER: And at that meeting residents of kwaMadala complained to the leadership that they wanted to take action against the residents of Boipatong and the leadership said: "Leave it to us, we need to think about this"?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: What I can remember is, when the residents gave those complaints or raised the complaint to the leaders it was Mkhize who said: "You must leave it to the leaders since they've heard the issues".  I'm not sure whether it was Damarra Mkhize but I should think it's Mkhize.

MR BERGER: Mr Victor Mthembu says that Mr Vanana Zulu and Mr Mkhize took a decision to attack the Vaal community, do you agree with that?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: It might be possible that I was not in that meeting.

MR BERGER: Mr Victor Mthembu goes further, he says: "The attack of the 17th of June in Boipatong was not approved by the IFP leadership",
do you agree with that?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: That will mean, or I would say that is from Mr Mthembu.  To my knowledge it is that it was something that's been taken within or inside.  I don't know whether the senior members of the organisation were involved.

MR BERGER: Do you agree or do you disagree with the statement by Victor Mthembu that the attack on the 17th of June was not approved by the IFP leadership?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I don't understand when you say it was not approved by the IFP leaders.  You are presenting the facts as if it was something where the leaders were sitting down and discussing and they're refusing to approve the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: It is being said that the attack was not approved by the IFP as an organisation, do you understand?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I understand but I don't understand when you say it wasn't approved because it looks like it was something that was discussed and someone denied or didn't approve of what was being discussed.

CHAIRPERSON: It is said that Mr Mthembu said before the Committee that the attack at Boipatong was not approved by the IFP as an organisation, what do you say?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Yes, I would say it's correct.

MR BERGER: Mr Mthembu goes further and he says
"All the residents of the kwaMadala Hostel were afraid of Chonco and they were forced to attend the meeting", do you agree with that?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: There somewhere I don't understand, you said they were forced to attend the meeting?

MR BERGER: Yes, that's what I've read to you.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said they were forced to go to the meeting?

MR BERGER: Yes, that's what I just read and I'm asking the witness if he agrees with that.

CHAIRPERSON: The Interpreter is talking about something totally, he's talking about the organisation.
	It is said that people were forced to attend at meeting?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Which meeting, do you mean the meeting to attack or any other meetings?

MR BERGER: Let's start with the meeting on the 17th of June, the meeting in the stadium.  Were residents forced to attend that meeting?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: My perception of the situation at the time was that all the people who were at the stadium were there of their own free will.  I was also one of them who was freely and voluntarily at the stadium.

MR BERGER: Was there any meeting of the residents of kwaMadala at which residents were forced to attend because they were afraid of Chonco?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I don't know that.

MR BERGER: And finally, in this paragraph that I'm reading from, Mr Thembu said
"Vanana Zulu knew about it but he went to his family.  Either he knew that residents were forced to attend a meeting or he knew that the attack did not have the approval of the IFP leadership"

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I will not deny that.  I don't know when Vanana Zulu and Mthembu discussed this, I personally don't know anything about that.

MR BERGER: You see my difficulty is this, on your own evidence Vanana Zulu was aware of the problems of the kwaMadala residents, I'm referring to the meeting of three weeks before the attack, he knew that the residents wanted action, he knew that the leadership had told the residents: "Leave it to us, we will think about this", and he either knew that people were being forced to attend a meeting on the 17th or he knew that the attack did not have the sanction of the IFP leadership, and you are saying that at that critical time Mr Vanana Zulu just left the hostel to go and stay with his family,  can that possibly be right Mr Khanyile?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I would like to explain to Mr Berger that it didn't mean if Vanana Zulu was not at kwaMadala Hostel nothing could happen, there were other leaders who would act in his position.  That he left for his home knowing that there will be an attack, whether he didn't know, it's something that I don't know.

MR BERGER: And you see it goes further than that because Mr Vanana Zulu had a personal interest in at least one house in Boipatong and that was the house where his parents-in-law lived.  At the time of attack Mr Zulu's parents-in-law were living in Boipatong.  Are you saying that with knowledge of a possibility of an attack on Boipatong, Mr Vanana Zulu would have left whilst his family was in the township?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question you are putting to this witness?

MR BERGER: The question I'm putting to this witness is that there were a number of reasons, not least of them personal, why Mr Vanana Zulu would not have left the hostel at that critical time, and I'm putting to him that he is therefore protecting Mr Zulu when he says that Mr Zulu was not in charge of the attack and not present during the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand that question?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] why he had to be there.

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: What I'm trying to explain Mr Berger, is one thing and that is that during the attack at Boipatong, Mr Zulu was not present.  As I said he was away for a week or about three weeks.  The question of whether he knew or didn't know is something that I don't know, all that I know is that he was not present during the attack at Boipatong.

MR BERGER: The meeting three weeks before the attack, you say the leaders said: "Let us think about it".  Then there was a meeting a week before the attack you say, that would have been on the 10th of June, at that meeting was there an instruction given that Boipatong had to be attacked?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: No, it wasn't given.  What we were told is that we should be vigilant, that so and so should be attacked we were not told.

MR BERGER: Let me refer you to page 95, paragraph 11(b), now you've told the Committee that these are your words.  You were asked to give particulars of the, relating to the orders or approval which you received in relation to the acts which you committed and this is what you said
"An order was given by leaders of the IFP living in the kwaMadala Hostel, that Boipatong must be attacked.  The orders were given on the 10th and the 17th of June 1992.  The leaders were Mkhize and Chonco.  Mkhize lives in the Khayelitsha Hostel"
Is that answer not correct Mr Khanyile?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: What is written there I can't confirm.  That Mkhize is staying in Khayelitsha is not true, he was staying at kwaMadala Hostel.  Also that we were told before the 17th that Boipatong should be attacked, that is not true, we were told on the 17th, on the day of the attack, that: "Today you are supposed to go and attack Boipatong".