Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-08

SISI KHAMPEPE: I am just reading what has been read by your counsel. So there was never a stagewhen you actually observed, while the car was being stoned, that the driverwas a White person, that is not so?

MR MANQINA: I did see when stones were thrown to the car and I saw that the driver was aWhite person.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And did you at that stage see that the passengers in that car were Black people?

MR MANQINA: I don't remember clearly, I don't remember seeing any other people, but whenI was in court I was told that there were four other people with her, becauseat the time there were a lot of people around the car throwing stones at thecar.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you didn't see that the passengers in the car were Black?

MR MANQINA: No I did not see, I just saw White hair.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think that counsel would help us a lot in when they lead evidence-in-chiefin dealing with the aspect of the applicant's level of education. I have beendoing this in respect of every applicant. I think it is very important becauseit would enable us to gauge the level of an applicant's political sophisticationand that may impact on his understanding of an interpretation of the politicalsituation. And we have been listening to somebody who has been testifying andright at the end of it he tells us that he was only in standard six at the time.I would have preferred to deal with that right at the beginning without prescribingto you exactly how the evidence should be tendered.

JUDGE WILSON: You have told us you saw them stoning the car, you saw the car stop, you sawthe White driver get out of the car, correct?

MR MANQINA: Yes that is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Now the evidence given at your trial by the passengers was that one of themgot out and stood there telling them to leave the deceased alone as she wasa student and a comrade, so she must have been clearly visible. You say youdidn't see this?

CHAIRPERSON: Answer the question, you shake your head and it is not on record.

MR MANQINA: No I did not see this.
JUDGEWILSON: 	"While she was standing there a man with a knifecame and tried to take her bag away from her".
do you remember?

MR MANQINA: Taking a bag from who?

JUDGE WILSON: From the woman, Malesatsi, she gave evidence, remember her?

MR MANQINA: I do remember her.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you remember who she said came and tried to take the bag from her?

MR MANQINA: Yes I do.

JUDGE WILSON: Who?

MR MANQINA: She said I was the one who wanted to take the bag from her.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes. You went and tried to take the bag from one of the passengers and you sayyou don't know the passengers were Black.

MR MANQINA: What I am saying is that I met these people in court while they were givingevidence that they were together with her. I don't know her.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The question is did you or did you not try to grab her bag?

MR MANQINA: No I did not.

JUDGE WILSON: And the other witnesses identified you as being with the group and leading thegroup didn't they, the anonymous witnesses? Do you remember that? They gaveevidence as Miss A, Miss B and Miss C, their names were not disclosed. Two ofthem said they saw you, didn't they?

MR MANQINA: Yes I do remember them.

JUDGE WILSON: H'n. Right now, the last aspect I want to deal with, you gave evidence at yourtrial didn't you? You gave evidence on oath didn't you?

MR MANQINA: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: And you were questioned at some length about the slogan "One Settler,one bullet", weren't you?

MR MANQINA: Yes that is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And you remember the passage I read to the previous witness that you said itmeant, Settler meant someone who was not in agreement with you,with what the Africans want, do you remember telling the Court that and givingChief Buthelezi as an example?

MR MANQINA: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And you said that it was a slogan used by APLA during their training, do youremember telling the Court?

MR MANQINA: Yes, that is also correct.

JUDGE WILSON: You also said that the slogan wasn't aimed at killing, that the use of the wordbullet didn't mean the slogan was aimed at killing, do you remember sayingthat?

MR MANQINA: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: Well could you explain why you said that, and you are saying the opposite today,about the slogan not being aimed at killing?

MR MANQINA: The reason why I said that was that I was trying to defend and protect myselfin the court of law because I did not want to be found guilty.

ADV DE JAGER: I want to ask you something else. At that time was that the only killing ofa White person in the country, a political killing, if it was political, thisone?

MR MANQINA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Weren't Whites also killed on farms and at other places?

MR MANQINA: That was the duty of APLA and MK.

ADV DE JAGER: And what was the reason advanced for those killings, why did it take place?

MR MANQINA: That can be answered by MK or APLA members because I don't have a knowledgeabout that.

ADV DE JAGER: Wasn't there statements at that time giving the reasons why they were killed?

MR MANQINA: Please repeat your question Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Didn't you hear of any statement by political parties or armies why they killedpeople?

MR MANQINA: No, according to what I heard they were killed because Africans wanted theirland to be given back to the Africans. As I have already said before, when oneperson dies, when one White person dies the government reacts to that, thatwas the reason I heard.

ADV DE JAGER: And in fact at that time more than one White person died, isn't that so?

MR MANQINA: Where?

ADV DE JAGER: In the country, in South Africa as a whole.

MR MANQINA: Ja, it was not the first time that a White person died.

ADV DE JAGER: And well, that may sound, I know it's not the first person, the time that theWhite person died or other persons died, I think they die every day of the year,but what I am trying to say is was it the only murder committed for politicalreasons, to influence the government?

MR MANQINA: Is that a question?

ADV DE JAGER: Ja. Or do you agree with what I am saying, or do you differ?

MR MANQINA: Can you please explain your question.

ADV DE JAGER: What I am trying ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He's trying to put a statement to you, not as a question, he's putting a statementto find out whether you agree or disagree with that statement, that's what he'strying to do.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you agree that during that period other Whites were killed, and the reasonfor the killing of those Whites was to send a message to the government, wouldyou agree with that or not?

MR MANQINA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?
NO RE-EXAMINATIONBY ADV ARENDSE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink what is the position at this stage of the game?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Mr Chairman it is now very nearly quarter to five. Possibly if we adjourn nowwe can start tomorrow morning at nine o'clock. I am a bit concerned about theSt James application because I expect there will be a crowd as big as today'sand we will have enormous logistical problems unless we can get an announcementout we will probably start about quarter past 11. I think you will be callingone more applicant. Do you have anymore witnesses? I have no witnesses. Thelast applicant will give evidence and then Mr and Mrs Biehl are here to makea presentation, a statement. I think we should possibly - St James is set downfor two days, we might be safe to start St James at 11H30.

CHAIRPERSON: Whatever happens tomorrow will happen tomorrow, but for the time being the positionis we can't proceed very much further.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: No.

CHAIRPERSON: One has to take into account the logistical people and others.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Yes, yes. But what happens tomorrow is extremely important.

CHAIRPERSON: You will have to do the best you can.