Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-15

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, and more specifically, did you have information that the deceased actually used ritual sacrifice for political and economic gain?  Let's start with the political first.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) was the deceased a person in political power?

MR VAN RENSBURG: I think from the drift of this affidavit, it is in fact the case of the Applicant.  If we specifically look at paragraph 13 thereof, you'll see they make the allegation there in paragraph 13 that there were no structures, rent boycotts or things that they could do, the only thing that they could was to attack the witches.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the purpose of my question is to distinguish whether the deceased was a person in political power who would use the witches' power to retain and sustain his position...(intervention)

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...or was the deceased looked upon as a witch who assisted people in sustaining their political power.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you, I think that will actually the position better than my question.  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Then you could look at paragraph 19.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes.  Indeed, that links up with that.  So, if I can rephrase my question, Mr Muhadi, perhaps you can explain to us which one of these two situations was the truth at that stage?  Was the deceased using ritual sacrifice for political gain himself or was it the situation that it was thought that he used his powers to assist...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: His powers as a witch.

MR VAN RENSBURG: ...his powers as a witch, to assist the institution and the government of the day in any way?  Which of these two was the situation?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: I will answer in this way.  This Committee will agree with me that I have never seen the assist committing murder or witching anybody but, what I heard is that the deceased was practising witchcraft.  As such, if I can continue, I don't think I can say the deceased was doing that in order to protect his power politically because politically he was not involved in politics because, as far as the institution which he or allegations were saying that he is committing ritual murder in order to protect a certain institution, I don't know that institution.

MR VAN RENSBURG: I see.  So, what you are in fact saying is that none of the two alternatives that I have given you are the truth.  The truth is you heard he was a witch, full stop.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no.  He heard he was a witch and, as far as his knowledge, whether it was hearsay or not, was that he used that power in his capacity as a witch to sustain the position of the political institutions.

MR VAN RENSBURG: So that's the second alternative that I put to him.

CHAIRPERSON: As near as we can get, yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay.  Can you be a bit more specific about that?  Can you give us some instance of a rumour that you have heard, how he used these powers to assist the political powers?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let's put it this way, before you answer that question, did you in fact hear the he was a particular who used to assist the political institutions or did you know that specifically about him?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: That that was assisting as a witch as far as politics was concerned, I never heard about that because, in the past politics here in our rural areas was something which was not popular.

CHAIRPERSON: Then, if that is so, how did you attach the deceased or how was he earmarked as far as you're concerned for political attack?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: I will explain in this way.  The deceased, when it comes in a way that he was killed as far as politics is concerned is that by that time, while there were violences, people were recognising that the government which was leading us was leading us with things such as witches and ritual murder.  And here in the rural areas because...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) asked a simple question.  How did the deceased become a political target?  We know that you made the allegation that witches assisted political authorities to retain their power.  In particular the deceased, Edward, was there anything specific that you heard or saw that he did or was he just regarded as a witch who assisted these political powers?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: The deceased was attached with politics in our village because when youth were singing freedom songs, he used to obstruct them and when they held meetings, he used to prevent them from holding meetings.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) we've heard that.  In his capacity as a witch, was he a political target?  We've heard that he was a political target because of his political attitude towards the youths and meetings, etcetera.  In his capacity as a wizard which you believed he was, was he a political target because of being a witch?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: No, I'm asking that you repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Look, we know you've told us that in particular Edward used to oppose political meetings, political songs especially that of the youth, we know that.  Let's forget about that now, let's assume we accept that, that in that he would be a political target.  But we also know that you say he was thought of to be a witch.  We also know that you have indicated that witches were thought of at least to assist in sustaining the wrong political powers as far as you people were concerned.  Do you follow so far?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Yes, I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: Edward, you say you believed, was a wizard.  In his capacity as this wizard, as you thought, was he a political target?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Yes, I agree because his killing was making the government to feel that there is pressure.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) besides that, before he was (indistinct), before he was killed, was he a political target because he was a wizard?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: He was a political target because he was against the politics that was being done by them.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's not what I'm asking.  He was a witch, now because he was a witch, was he a political target or not?  That's all I'm asking.

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: In our village he was a political target because they were the people whom we decided to deal with because to do that, to us was important in assisting us in making sure that the government will understand what we are doing.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) understand if you kill a witch?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: It's pressure, what the government was supposed to hear.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct), why kill a witch?  What was so important about killing a witch to show the government something?  What did this witch do, or any witch do that made them a political target, if anything?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: The Committee will agree with me...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) agree with you, we're asking you questions.

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: I'm asking that you repeat the question.

ADV DE JAGER: Could I try and help?  Why did you decide to kill a witch and not for instance decide to kill businessmen in the area?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: It has been explained several times that killing a witch, we were looking into that the government which was ruling us was ruling us with things or dealing with things such as ritual murder and witches so, we see witches and traditional doctors and the government as one thing which was cooperating together.  And the government was funding the medicine from those people.  So, if we killed those people we would have had the government.

ADV DE JAGER: That's what we're trying to find out.

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: Thank you.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Fine.  Let's turn to the next one now, the phenomenon of ritual sacrifice for economic gain.  And all I want to know from you is did you have any information that the deceased used this phenomenon of ritual sacrifice for economic gain himself?

NGOMANDU AMOS MUHADI: No, I didn't have any information to that regard.