Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

JUDGE WILSON: You in your affidavit, talking about thisman, said
  "Our Intelligence informed us that he had been instructedto lure me to a spot where I would be alone and where I wouldthen be stalked and killed".
You went on to say:
  "When he was confronted by us with this information heran away and we chased him and then stabbed him".

B J MPONDO: What I said was, this other girl who cameto me at home, and informed me about the two people from the 3million gang who alighted from the kombi.  She wanted to makeme aware so that these people cannot lure me to another place.

JUDGE WILSON: That is not what you said. I am readingfrom what was written down by your attorney, was read over toyou and signed by you.  I think it is your present attorney whowrote it down.  He confirms.  He wrote it down as you told him,and what you told him was that when you confronted the deceasedwith the fact that he was going to lure you to some place andkill you he ran away.  You have not said one word of that beforeus today, have you?
Can you explain how you told your attorney this completely differentstory?

B J MPONDO: It is one story.  I told my lawyer thatthere was a girl who arrived ...

JUDGE WILSON: You did not.  I am reading to you what hewrote down and what was read to you and what you signed.
Do you want to read it?  Can you explain how you came to tellyour attorney this?  How he came to write it down and submit itto us.

B J MPONDO: No, what I told my attorney is that thisother girl told me about the members of the 3 million gang, therewere two, and she said she was just making me aware so that theycouldn't lure me.

JUDGE WILSON: So your attorney does not write a word ofthat down and puts a completely false version, is that what youwould have us believe?

B J MPONDO: I think that was a mistake.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY JUDGE WILSON

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mpondo, in your evidence in chief, didn'tyou say that you were informed by Comrade Daniel who came high-spiritedon the 4th May whilst you were with the deceased to tell you thathe had just spotted the deceased inside a kombi full of the 3million gang?

B J MPONDO: Yes, he told me that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And in fact, you did not hear this from theyoung woman who initially approached you to advise you of thevisit of Comrade Tsietsie.

B J MPONDO: No.  May I please clarify this.  This girlcame before Comrade Daniel arrived and when she arrived she toldme about the two 3 million members who alighted the kombi nearthe church and then Comrade Daniel told me that
he saw a kombi driving past his workplace and it was full of 3million members and he also saw Tsietsie in that kombi that belongedto the 3 million gang.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Mpondo, what exactly did you want tofind out from the deceased?

B J MPONDO: The deceased, as I said before, was a personwho told us that he didn't want to be a member of the 3 milliongang any more, but he went back to them.  What I wanted to beclear about was the fact that what made him go back to the 3 milliongang, whilst he came to us and told us that he never wanted tobe a member of the 3 million gang any more.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Before you decided to take him to your comradesand when you were still in the company of the deceased and Danielat your place, did you ask him, the deceased?

B J MPONDO: No, I didn't ask him.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Why didn't you?

B J MPONDO: What I wanted him to clarify before theleaders, I wanted him to clarify this before the leaders, notto me.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And did you have particular leaders in mind?

B J MPONDO: Yes, that is why I told the comrades thatwe  have to take him to the leaders.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Did you ever take him to the leaders?

B J MPONDO: I was told that my leaders were at the nightclub. When I went to the nightclub I found the other comrades thereand they chased us away and said to us some of us are going tobe arrested because they were being sought by the police and thenthey told us to leave that place.

JUDGE MGOEPE: When he was stabbed, where were you on theway to?

B J MPONDO: We were on the way to my place.

JUDGE MGOEPE: For what purpose?

B J MPONDO: As we didn't find the other comrades andwe were together with the other comrades.  When I am talking aboutthese comrades, I am talking about the leaders, because therewere senior comrades who were not leaders.  I thought they werethe ones who would want some clarify from Tsietsie regarding thisissue.

JUDGE MGOEPE: When he was stabbed with the knife, wherewere you on the way, to what place?

B J MPONDO: He was stabbed when he was trying to runaway, when we got him out of the house between the Roman Churchand Witeko(?).

JUDGE MGOEPE: I will try for the third time to put thisquestion.  Where were you taking him to?

B J MPONDO: We were taking him to my place.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Did you think you would find some of yourleaders there at your place?

B J MPONDO: That is how we were told by one of the peoplethat they were there at the club.  At home there were no leaders. I was taking him home so that we could sit together with him,we and the comrades, and find out from him whether he still wantsto be a member of the 3 million gang or does he want to returnback to the community.

UNKNOWN: After the leaders, Dividi and Masusu, waskilled, how long did it take before peace sort of prevailed inthe area?

B J MPONDO: Do you mean after Dividi and Masusu werekilled?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

B J MPONDO: This didn't happen immediately thereafter. Masusu was killed first and then Dividi was killed after him. There was still no stability in Maokeng.

UNKNOWN: The killing Tsietsie took place about threemonths after the killing of the leaders of the 3 million gang,two and a half months round about, is that correct?

B J MPONDO: No, what I remember is that Dividi was killedwhen Tsietsie had already been killed.

UNKNOWN: Was Dividi killed after Tsietsie, afteryou killed Tsietsie?

B J MPONDO: Yes.

UNKNOWN: It may be that I've made a mistake.  I willcheck on it.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mpondo, how many comrades were there atthe time when the stabbing took place of Tsietsie?

B J MPONDO: When Tsietsie was stabbed, there were somany because we had by that time already met to get us - someof the other community members were there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you able to approximate, were you 10,were you 15, were you 20?

B J MPONDO: I think we were more than 20.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now when you make reference to "comrades",are you referring to members of the SDU, are you referring tomembers of the ANC Youth League, are you referring to people whoalso do not belong to either the SDU or the ANC Youth League,who are merely youth within your community?

B J MPONDO: Usually the SDUs were the people I usedto call "Comrade" at that time.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So it is only the members of the SDUs who
participated in the stabbing of Mr Tsietsie?

B J MPONDO: No, there were also members of the communitywho took part in the killing of Tsietsie.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why did you participate in the stabbing ofMr Tsietsie?

B J MPONDO: I took part in stabbing Tsietsie becauseTsietsie couldn't tell us the truth and what I wanted to do wasto bring about peace and freedom in the Maokeng Township.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Mpondo, you say you participated becauseTsietsie could not tell you the truth.  Now, wasn't there anyother means which could have been employed in trying to catchMr Tsietsie and further interrogating him with regard to the truthwhich you wanted to ascertain from him?

B J MPONDO: No, there was no other way we (indistinct)because he had already shown to us that he wasn't honest withus.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But now if you say he had already shown thathe was no longer honest with you, whereas the reason why you wantedto catch him was to interrogate him to obtain the truth, whichof the two I am unable to find out exactly, what really promptedyou to participate in the stabbing.