Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1998-12-07

CHAIRPERSON: ... to hear the application for amnesty of Sibiso Richard Mbhele.   The Committee consists of myself, John Andrew Wilson, Dr Tsotsi and Mr Lax.  Could the legal representatives please put themselves on record?

MR MATTHEWS: Mr Chairman, my name is Shane Matthews, I appear for the applicant, I'm instructed by Laurens de Klerk Attorneys.

MS ARCHER: Mr Chairman, my name is Janine Archer, I have received my instructions on behalf of Patrick Falconer from Larson, Brouton and Falconer Attorneys.

MR MAPOMA: As it pleases, Chairperson, my name is Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, can we continue.

MR MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, is it not required that Mr Mbhele be sworn in, Mr Chair, is it not required that he be sworn in?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, are you calling him now?

MR MATTHEWS: I'll call him, yes.

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: (sworn states)

MR MATTHEWS: Mr Mbhele, if you'd just sit up, no you don't have to stand up, just sit up and speak normally but loudly, you don't have to speak right into the microphone, just speak normally, okay?   Just speak now, say - can you hear me properly?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, I can hear you.

MR MATTHEWS: Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Have those members of the audience who require earphones been issued with them?   The earphones have a device you can set, English is on channel 2, Zulu on channel 3.

MR MATTHEWS: Is it correct on the 6th of December 1996, you lodged an application for amnesty?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: This application was thereafter followed with a lengthy affidavit which you have made on the 14th of October 1996, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: Your application for amnesty pertains to 12 separate incidents, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I'm sure that is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: The first incident pertains to the murder of a young boy from Thenza's Kraal in 1993, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: The second incident the murder of a young male from Nhopupecha during 1993, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That's correct.

MR MATTHEWS: The third incident, the murder of Muzi in 1993, correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: The fourth incident, the murder of Maphuthalenza Dlamini at Umbonvini in 1993?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: The fifth one, the murder of three Transkei soldiers in 1993?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: The sixth incident, the murder of Anthony Mzmandi in 1993?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, that's correct.

MR MATTHEWS: The seventh incident is an attempted murder, an ambush, on a Mr Mabubane in 1993, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: The eighth incident is when you were present during the murder of a Mr Msimango, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: The ninth incident is the murder of Tula Phute Dlamini in 1993, correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That's correct.

MR MATTHEWS: The tenth incident is the murder of a young unknown male person at Umbonvini in 1993?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: The eleventh incident involved in the fetching of a Mr Langeza who was murdered by others in 1993?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That's correct.

MR MATTHEWS: Added to this also the attempted murder of two white policemen in 1993?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That's correct.

MR MATTHEWS: You've also applied for amnesty for being present during certain planning of the assassination of Reggie Gadebe is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That's correct, although I was not involved in it.

MR MATTHEWS: Mr Mbhele, I think if we could just simply start off with your - the background, your personal circumstances and the background.   Is it correct you were born in 1965, the 1st of November?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: You have a standard one education?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: That you have received training with Springbok Patrols?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That's correct.

MR MATTHEWS: As well as with Trident Security at Scottborough in Natal?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That's correct.

MR MATTHEWS: This training involved also the use of certain firearms?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: Now, of what political organisation did you become a member in 1992, or earlier?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I have been a member of the IFP.

MR MATTHEWS: And as a member of the IFP, is it correct that in 1992 you received training to become a member of the Self Protection Unit?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes.

MR MATTHEWS: This training took place at Amatakula Training Camp in Zululand, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I interrupt you at this stage?   Who was in charge of the training camp there?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: If I'm not mistaken, it was Mr Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know any other names?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: No, I do not.

MR MATTHEWS: If you could just explain to us what you saw as the purpose of this training at this particular camp?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: We were suffering at Ixopo as members of IFP were being killed.

MR MATTHEWS: Did you regard this training as training for the protection of other IFP members?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, those are the people who suffered most in Ixopo.

MR MATTHEWS: At the particular time, 1992 to 1993, when most of these incidents occurred, what was the political climate like between the IFP and other political parties in the Ixopo area?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: There was political tension between the ANC and the IFP, we were attacked.

MR MATTHEWS: Now as a Self Protection Unit member, were you armed?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, I had a ...(indistinct) rifle.

MR MATTHEWS: And did you regard it as your specific duty to protect the interests of the IFP?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, I regarded it as my responsibility, because I was trained in the use of firearms.

MR MATTHEWS: Before we get onto the specific incidents in question, you also took part in the Shell House march, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, I was one of the people who were injured there.

MR MATTHEWS: You were shot, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: Yes, I was shot at.

MR MATTHEWS: All right.   Now the first incident that you are applying for amnesty for is the abduction and killing of a person from Thenza's Kraal, is that correct?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: That is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: I want you to explain to the panel, to the persons present, exactly what occurred and why this killing took place?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: He was not picked up by me, but by some people who was, he was known to have been involved in the killing of seven IFP members.   He was also implicated in the death of the chief, Ndlovu, and when they arrived, they told me this was the person responsible for those deaths, and I shot at him and killed him.    The Nkhosi was not present at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was not present?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: The chief Nkosi Dlamini, was not present.

MR MATTHEWS: Do you recall what this person's name was that was killed?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I would be lying, I do not know his name.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you were not present, who went to fetch him?

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: It was somebody from the Hopewell area, whose name I did not know.   I just knew him by sight.  I knew them to be IFP members, because I do not come from their area.

CHAIRPERSON: You see I'm asking you this because in the affidavit you have made you said, and I'm quoting from it at page 12
"I ordered my members to go and fetch him."

SIBISO RICHARD MBHELE: I did not go to pick him up, he was fetched by some people whose names I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you order them to go and fetch him?