Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-12

PIETER JAKOBUS GOUWS: Chairman, always short of manpower, always short of vehicles and we didn't have an easy time.

ADV MADASA: And were you able to distinguish between attacks of a political nature on the farmers and or Afrikaners in the Free State and attacks of a criminal nature?

PIETER JAKOBUS GOUWS: Chairman, that would be very difficult for me to make such a distinction because I haven't been the Investigating Officer involved or haven't looked at, you know, the detailed data available, but based on, again, if you are a squatter living in a squatter camp and you would like to steal something, you don't go into a house and brutally kill people and try to do the utmost brutality, you know and really we regarded that, and I have seen some of the people the way they had been literally slaughtered to my mind, I don't think that it is normal and as  a lawyer myself, I personally don't think that is normal of any criminal act as such.  You must be psycho or something really to go about it.
	Secondly, as I've said to you that in many instances very little else except weapons had been removed from the houses.  And then may I also add, that these criminals normally would come extremely well armed, because they have killed some of our farmers that had been trained in battle, that had been prepared, that had been ready and in shoot outs and now I am thinking of a situation here in Theunissen for instance, they killed the specific farmer, so these to our mind, these people were not ordinary criminals braking a window pane, getting into the house to get bread, butter or something like that, they planned their attacks well, they knew what they want to do, they were well armed, their attacks were extremely brutal in many, many cases and that was to instil fear in the hearts of people.

ADV MADASA: You say some of the attacks were indicative of a pre-planned attack?  What features did you observe or were you told about which indicated that the attacks were planned by trained people?

PIETER JAKOBUS GOUWS: Yes, Chairman, this is rather easy to answer because most of the farm houses have been rather well protected with alarm systems, not only within the house - also outside lights, also barbed wire fences, dogs, etc - and so in the normal criminal, to my mind that would frighten away any normal criminal, but over and beyond that some of these systems have been if I can call it - circumvented - infiltrated, been passed by in a way that it must have taken some expertise or at least a study of what was going on or some time being spent on the study of the outlay and how to infiltrate the house.  It was not a question of just dropping in, wanting to steal something and you know, find yourself that there is barbed wire or something like that and then you cut a hole in the fence.  In other words, the defence lines if I can call it this way, that they penetrated were of such a nature that normal criminals wouldn't easily be able to handle that.

ADV MADASA: In one of the cases in which the applicant is applying for amnesty, a White person was killed at a residence which apparently was occupied by older people.  Now you have made reference to such an arrangement.  What I want to know is whether personally or by information are you aware of any security arrangements which we done to protect such people which you had called to organise themselves in such places?

PIETER JAKOBUS GOUWS: Thank you sir.  Before a leading question is called here, I would like to state that the specific case that was referred to here by Mr de Ru, I don't know the details.  I know that little town, we have precisely one like that or I should say something similar to that, Vierfontein in Bothaville or in the Bothaville area.  During this period of time, I am talking about 1989, 1990, 1991, the farming community went so far as to buy up this little town, buy up all the houses, made them liveable.  This specific one in Vierfontein has barbed wire fences around, etc.
	And we asked the older members of the community not only farmers, but also other people who had been interested in that and so, to settle in in those type of areas where they at least would have the security of policemen patrolling sometimes, they would at least have telephones that cannot be cut very easily, they are right next to a neighbour etc.  Now in Kragbron situation it is very much the same.  The specific person that had been murdered there, I don't know if he was a farmer, previously a farmer or not, because in many of these little towns or in these little towns like in Vierfontein, it is mostly Afrikaner people because the language being used there would be Afrikaans, it is normally under the auspices of a church, so I can say with an open heart it is normally Afrikaner people that would settle in these specific towns, like in Vierfontein definitely the case in Kragbron also to my knowledge.  I cannot say if there was adequate protection in that specific case, yes or no, but what you would have had a very good chance of finding older people there, secondly you probably would have had a very good chance of finding Boers there and lastly you probably you would have had a very good chance of finding boers, in other words retired farmers in that specific little village, Kragbron.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, but Dr Gouws it is not clear to me whether you are saying that Kragbron was also one of those as you put it certain villages that were bought by the farmers or arranged for by the farmers for people?

PIETER JAKOBUS GOUWS: No.

CHAIRPERSON: It was not one of them?

PIETER JAKOBUS GOUWS: No, I have specific knowledge of the one Vierfontein, and I know Kragbron, the general makeup of Kragbron is something similar to that and I referred to Vierfontein because I've been involved in the layout of the little town etc, but more detail about Kragbron, I cannot give, I would be guessing and I wouldn't like to do that.

ADV MADASA: But your evidence is that you made a call for older people to organise themselves in that fashion although you wouldn't know if this was in fact done, but you had made a call for such an organisation, is that what you are saying?

PIETER JAKOBUS GOUWS: I would like to repeat Chairman, that over a number of years through press releases and through statements at public meetings and at farmers' meetings, we requested the older members of the farming community, first of all please to double protect themselves, we asked the farm watches to go on double check roads with them, we asked the police specifically to drop in at their places, but the attacks continued and then in a final analysis and in most cases these attacks were on older people and a final analysis we really made a request and we asked these older farmers if they don't have a younger person that can live in with them or protect them, please to consider moving to a town or to one of these area that will be more protected and will give them more security and safety and we did it not at one occasion, but many, many occasions.

ADV MADASA: Right, can you give perhaps more clarity as to the difference or similarity between the White Boer and boer?  What do you mean by that?

PIETER JAKOBUS GOUWS: I didn't follow the question now.

ADV MADASA: Can you explain to the Committee what do you mean by the fact that there is a distinction between the Boer and the boer?