Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

CAPT BOKABA: I don't remember well, but I think it was in 1987, if I am not mistaken. It happened at Mamelodi barracks where we were staying. I was outside in the car, just next to my car.  Then Ngo approached me.  Then he said he wants to be a member of the security branch. I was surprised. Then I asked myself why. Then he said he was an informer, and he worked in the security branch in Bloemfontein.  Then shortly I said to him, no, I will go and talk to my commander, that is Col Loots, maybe he will call you for an interview. Then that is the person who will tell you about the procedure. Then that is all I said to him.

MR DU PLESSIS: And then, how did it happen when he went to Col Loots?

CAPT BOKABA: After that I met with Col Loots the following day, then I told him that there is a guy who is working at Unit 19, his name is Ngo.  He was telling me that he was working with the security branch in Bloemfontein as an informer. Then he wants to be a member of the security branch, he wants to work with us. Then Col Loots told me that bring him for an interview.  Then I went back. I met Ngo in the barracks again to give him a feedback.  Thereafter I told him that the following day we should go together to see Col Loots. It then happened that way. I took him to Col Loots, then he had an interview with him.  Then Col Loots informed him that he should submit an application for a transfer to his immediate commander in Unit 19.  That is the whole case.

MR DU PLESSIS: Now did you ever speak to Mr Ngo again about his application?

CAPT BOKABA: No, I never talked with him about that application.

COURT: Did Mr Ngo ever approach you again about his application?

CAPT BOKABA: Not at all, he never came to me in regard to the application.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see him again after that?

CAPT BOKABA: As we were staying at the barracks, I saw him many times.

MR DU PLESSIS: Now Captain, you have heard that, or let me ask you this way, why - was there any reason why you didn't speak to Mr Ngo again about his application?  Was there any reason why you would have spoken to him about his application?

CAPT BOKABA: I do not see whether there was a reason for me to speak to him, in regards to the application, because he was told to furnish the application to his immediate commander.  That took a long process. I explained it. I thought that the application was still going through the right channels.

MR DU PLESSIS: Right. Now Capt Bokaba, was there any reason why you contacted Col Loots instead of Capt Hechter about Ngo?

CAPT BOKABA: If I still recall - may you please put your question, Sir?

MR DU PLESSIS: I just want to know, Capt Hechter was your immediate superior. Is there any particular reason why you spoke to Col Loots and not Capt Hechter about Mr Ngo?  Can you remember?

CAPT BOKABA: If I still remember, Capt Hechter was on leave at that time, but I cannot recall where he was. I cannot recall quite well. Hence I went to Capt Loots directly.

MR DU PLESSIS: Right. Now Capt Bokaba, you have read Mr Ngo's application, and you have also heard his evidence about the fact that he said that at some stage you were asked by Col Loots to transport Mr Ngo to Bloemfontein and that you dropped him off at the Bloemfontein security branch. Can you remember that?

CAPT BOKABA: Yes, I remember that.

MR DU PLESSIS: In respect of that evidence, what do you say about that?  Can you give us your comment on that?

CAPT BOKABA: That's a blue lie, and that's embarrassing.  I started to know Bloemfontein on the 13th of May this year, as I was attending the hearings of the Truth Commission.  Ever since I was born, never in my life was I in Bloemfontein.  Not even the police who were there.

MR DU PLESSIS: Capt Bokaba, you have also read the application and heard evidence about certain petrol bombings in Mamelodi, including Louisa Mbongo and the application pertaining to the Fidelity Guard and the other applications about the petrol bombings. What are your comments on that?

CAPT BOKABA: This hurt, because my name has been defamed by Mr Ngo. I never worked with Mr Ngo. I never worked with Mr Ngo. If he bombed the houses, he might have done that alone, not with me, Bokaba. My name has been degraded.

MR DU PLESSIS: Now Captain, was Mr Ngo ever part of the security branch, Northern Transvaal, according to your knowledge?

CAPT BOKABA: Never, that is not so, he was never ever a member.

MR DU PLESSIS: Apart from the interview that you have testified about, have you ever seen Mr Ngo speaking to Col Loots or Capt Hechter?

CAPT BOKABA: Are you saying Ngo spoke to Capt Hechter? He does not know him.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did you ever see Ngo speaking to either Capt Hechter or Col Loots apart from that one interview that you testified about?

CAPT BOKABA: I have never ever seen him, never. I have never seen him.

MR DU PLESSIS: Now Captain, you have also heard evidence of Mr Ngo that he worked for a period of longer than two years with you and Danny Selahla, in Mamelodi as part of the security branch. What do you say about that?

CAPT BOKABA: He has never worked with me, he has never worked with Danny Selahla.  He has never worked with us, myself and Danny Selahla.

MR DU PLESSIS: And was there anybody else who ever worked with you and Danny Selahla for a long period such as two years, who were not part of the security branch?

CAPT BOKABA: You mean a White person or a Black person?

MR DU PLESSIS: Anybody, any informers. I mean anybody, was there anybody who worked with you as part of the security branch operations for more than a period of two years, who was not part of the security branch?

CAPT BOKABA: There is none.

MR DU PLESSIS: Capt Bokaba, you have made an affidavit which we find on page 44 to page 48 of Bundle B. You have read that affidavit?

CAPT BOKABA: Yes, I read it.

MR DU PLESSIS: Do you confirm the correctness thereof?

CAPT BOKABA: Yes, that is the truth.

MR DU PLESSIS: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Anybody else who wants to ask questions before he is cross-examined?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, we have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR BRINK: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Bokaba, in  your evidence in chief you told us that the security branch did not have an office at Mamelodi.  Now I want to clarify that with you and tell you that Ngo did not say that the security branch had an office at Mamelodi.

CAPT BOKABA: What did he say?

ADV MEMANI: He said that you, himself and Selahla worked with GOS in an office that was, which belonged to GOS and was controlled by members of the SADF.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I have to come in here. I don't recall the evidence of Mr Ngo to the effect that the office that they worked in belonged to the GOS or formed part of the GOS operation. I don't recall the evidence in that way, and I object against the question of my learned friend in that he doesn't put the evidence as it was given by Mr Ngo.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: (Indistinct ... - microphone not switched on).

MR DU PLESSIS: I recall the evidence as having been that they worked in a separate office, which was separate from the Mamelodi police station, and that there was an operation at the Mamelodi police station called GOS but that office was an office of the security branch and that it was a sub-station of the security branch in Mamelodi. You will also recall that his amnesty application specifically states that on page 10 of Bundle A, where he says
"While stationed at Unit 19 I was utilised at Mamelodi sub-base of the security police."
That's how I recall the evidence, Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: Well, when he testified, he implied that he also mentioned the Warrant-Officer (indistinct) who was in charge of the office. He did say that neither Bokaba, Selahla, nor himself were in charge of that office.