Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-02

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: People were burning the house with petrol bombs, I was having a gun and looking for any person who would interfere with the operation and shoot him.	So if any civilian came there to interfere with the operation, I was supposed to shoot that person, or anybody who was interfering with the operation, I was supposed to use my gun, therefore I could have been prosecuted for that.

MR VISSER: Did Coetzee order you to do that?   Or did you just decide to do that, just shoot anybody that came in the way?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Those instructions came from Mr Coetzee.

MR VISSER: I see.  When did he give you those instructions?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was a known fact that we should bomb the clinic.  I went together with them because I knew that it was long said that the clinic should be bombed for the second time.  It was a known fact because he has given those instructions long before.

MR VISSER: I am asking you when did Coetzee instruct you to shoot anybody while you were burning the clinic, who got in the way?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He didn't instruct us to kill a person.  He said we should bomb the clinic.

MR VISSER: You just told us that Coetzee told you to shoot anybody who got in the way.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, that is not the evidence.  He said that if anybody would have interfered, I would have shot the person, he didn't say that Coetzee said he must shoot anybody who interferes with the operation.

MR VISSER: He specifically said so, I asked him the question.  But perhaps we are going to take the adjournment and sort it out overnight.

CHAIRPERSON: Shouldn't we rather clear up what was used on the second occasion Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: I would like to if you would allow me.  I see it is four o'clock, I would like to just round this off Mr Chairman.
	So, why do you say Mr Ngo, that petrol bombs were used?  Is it merely because petrol was bought in a can or did you see that they threw petrol bombs at the clinic?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was somewhere above on the street and where I was standing I saw the house burning, then I made an inference that the petrol was used.  Whether they just throw that petrol from that five litre container or they made petrol bombs, but I saw the clinic catching fire, then I thought petrol bombs were used.

MR VISSER: So the short answer is, you don't know how they burnt the clinic?  Is that correct, you don't know?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The way the operation was done, I was not directly in the full view of what was happening.  What I would say is that they had petrol with them, then I was doing the surveillance that no person should interfere with the operation.	It may happen that petrol bombs were used or maybe they just poured the petrol to the clinic.

MR VISSER: What time of the day or the night was this attack?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was during the day?  If it is not Thursday, it is Friday.

MR VISSER: During daylight?  The attack took place during daylight?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was at night.

MR VISSER: At night?  More-or-less what time at night?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I don't remember well what time was it, but it was at night.  It might have been around twelve or one o'clock.

MR VISSER: Okay, were there people moving around in the streets?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was quiet.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, I think perhaps at this point, unless there is something else you wish to ask.

CHAIRPERSON: What I wish to ask, Mr Ngo, you have told us in some detail how petrol was used, that you said they either made petrol bombs or they poured petrol into the building.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: What I would tell the Judge is that I saw them buying petrol and then they put it in the combi and then the way we decided or the way they discussed is that they were supposed to petrol bomb the clinic.   When I was there, I was given the responsibility to do the surveillance so I don't know as whether they did those petrol bombs or whether they used the petrol, but I saw the house burning or the clinic burning.

CHAIRPERSON: What is a phosphorous grenade?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The way I know that is the way they explained it to me.  It is a grenade used to ignite fire or to threaten a person.

CHAIRPERSON: You see in your application which was typed and submitted you said we guarded Warrant Officer Ramoseu while he threw an incendiary device.  As far as I could ascertain, it was a phosphorous grenade, into the clinic when the clinic started burning, we left the scene.	Now, you haven't told us one word today about Warrant Officer Ramoseu throwing this incendiary device, this phosphorous grenade, have you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Ramoseu threw the grenade, he wanted to throw those grenades in the clinic together with Bester.  The way I thought is that those grenades which they went together with in the box I was talking about, those explosives, which were in the box.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that when you went there on the first occasion that you are talking about the explosives in the box?  That is when you went on the first occasion with Bester and Ramoseu?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: But you told, Mr Ngo, you are talking here in your typed application about going there with Sergeant Mamome, Constable Motsamai, Constable Mtyala and I.  You make no mention of Bester.   If five people went, will you please explain now how it is that suddenly you have five people there on the first visit?  Because you say, you have now just told me that this grenade you thought were thrown, it was with the explosions in the box.  Can you explain Mr Ngo?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is what I explained that Ramoseu and Bester threw then.

CHAIRPERSON: But you are dealing here in your typed application with the five of you going to the clinic and Bester was not one of that five when you say the grenade was thrown.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is why I explained about the grenade, when I described those grenades which were there, I described the grenades which were in the hand for the certain instance when we were together with Ramoseu, petrol was used.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngo, that is not what you had said in this, you have said one paragraph of your attack here and it relates to one incident.
	When you were questioned earlier by Mr Visser, you tried to get out of difficulties you had with him by saying oh, there were two different visits.
	I was talking about the first visit and the second.  You can't now say you are talking about both of them in one paragraph Mr Ngo.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It may happen that I explain in a different way, but I don't know what kind of an answer I would give but the hand grenade were used in the first attack at the clinic.  For the second attack petrol was used.
	So if I explain it that kind of a false or maybe a wrong explanation, I am explaining now that ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, when you gave your evidence here Mr Ngo, about the first attack, you made no mention about a hand grenade.
	When you gave evidence before us today about the first attack, you made no mention of a hand grenade being used, did you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I spoke of explosives.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, if I may remind you, it was agreed that the merits of this will not be dealt with and what was dealt with in chief was the source of the instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, we will leave it then.  Mr Visser, you put it to the witness I think, and his counsel objected, that he had not mentioned Cronje as having participated in the attack on Mohapi?

MR VISSER: I believe that is correct, Mr Chairman.  I think I have just switched off your microphone.