Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: (sworn states)

UNKNOWN: The application of this applicant appears in volume 1 from page 23 Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

UNKNOWN: Mr Raath you are an applicant applying for amnesty for any criminal or legal deed which was committed by you regarding the incident where Mr Kondile was killed, is that correct?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct, yes.

UNKNOWN: In your application on page 23 paragraph 7A and B, you replied "not applicable, and not applicable" to questions as to whether you were, amongst others, a member of a political organisation, institution or body, and if so in what capacity, that information you say to me is wrong.  Paragraph 7A which are the correct facts that we can say there?  Were  you a member of any political organisation?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman I must tell you, and you will find this with many, many applicants the question here has been put, it's very unclear and it seems to be directed at officials of a particular organisation.  Certainly that is the way my attorney read it, he tells me.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the word "lid"?

UNKNOWN: "Lid", well I've just asked this witness and he says he wasn't a "lid".

ADV DE JAGER: Was a supporter, the following word?

UNKNOWN: Were you a supporter?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes I was a supporter.

UNKNOWN: Of which party?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Of the National Party.

UNKNOWN: I would ask Mr Chairman, I would move Mr Chairman for an amendment of the application in that regard.  7A should read "National Party" - "supporter" and 7B should read "National Party".

CHAIRPERSON: (...indistinct)

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman is it correct that on the 21st of January 1968 you became a member of the South African Police?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And that from the 22nd of January 1968 up to and including December 1973 you were at the Uniform Branch?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And is it also correct that from 1973 to 1975 you were a detective?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And from '75 you became involved in the Security Branch?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Is it also so that from January '89 you were transferred to the Eastern Cape, Port Elizabeth where you lived?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say '89?

UNKNOWN: 1980 Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: 1980?

UNKNOWN: Yes.  He arrived here one month after Gerrit Erasmus Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: And that you lived in Port Elizabeth until January '82 when you were transferred to Natal?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And that you lived in Natal until December 1989?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Thereafter from January 1990 till December '92 you were stationed in Bloemfontein in the Free State?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And thereafter till the 30th of March 1997 you were in Port Shepstone, in the stabilising unit, the unrest unit?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And on the 30th of March '97 you left the services of the South African Police Force?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: With which rank?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Inspector.

UNKNOWN: Where were you born and where did you grow up?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I was born in Pretoria and I grew up there till I was five years old and then we moved to the Eastern Transvaal.

UNKNOWN: Very briefly what was the background of your education milieu?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I grew up in a very conservative Afrikaans household and my parents were supporters of the National party and this is how I grew up.  We were also member of the NG Church.  My parents were supporters of the National Party's policy of apartheid, we believed in that.  Apart from opposition speeches and press there were very few things that made me think that I was wrong in this respect.

UNKNOWN: And when you were a policeman you took an oath of trust in the government?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And as security policemen did you have anything to do with internal security?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct, yes.

UNKNOWN: You heard the testimony of du Plessis, van Rensburg and Erasmus, especially Erasmus regarding the matters regarding the unrest situation in Port Elizabeth in the years '80 and '81, was it also your experience regarding the situation there?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: How would you have described the situation, how would you describe it today if you had to tell it in one sentence, how were things during those years, the situation in Port Elizabeth?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I regarded it as something that had got out of hand.  The conditions in and around Port Elizabeth was that the security situation was out of control.  There were problems with the fact that the normal, the ordinary policeman could not do his duties effectively.  Policemen were a constant target for attacks....(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Just a bit slower please.  You say that the policemen were a constant target for attacks and murder?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes.  This resulted in the fact that law and order could not be maintained and applied properly.  The result of this was a tremendous increase in normal, ordinary crime, together with a low success rate of court-orientated actions.  There was an inability to protect human lives and property.

UNKNOWN: We've already learnt from Mr Erasmus that the role players or some of the big role players here like students and scholars and the workers, they were the biggest component?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: To save time he also referred to resistance actions which took place there and in general he informed the Committee regarding consumer boycotts, the burning of beer halls and large-scale intimidation, was that also your experience?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: You confirm Mr Erasmus and du Plessis and van Rensburg's testimony in this regard, regarding the general circumstances.
	Now if we can go direct to Mr Sizwe Kondile's matter.  I want you, as far as you can remember, and if you can't remember certain aspects from memory just tell me, please tell us what exactly you had to do with Mr Kondile?  I am sorry, first I want to ask what was your rank in 1981?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I was a sergeant.

UNKNOWN: So you were functioning on grassroots level?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I was involved in Kondile's interrogation.

UNKNOWN: Mr Raath I think I have to lead you in this regard.  Mr Kondile was detained in the Free State, you know that?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Do you know how he landed in the Eastern Cape then?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I received an instruction from Captain du Plessis to fetch Kondile and to transport him to Port Elizabeth.

UNKNOWN: And you executed this command?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Where did you place Kondile or what happened to him after you had brought him from Bloemfontein?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I took him to the police cells in Humansdorp where I detained him, and I reported that to Captain du Plessis.

ADV GCABASHE: If I might ask Mr Raath, who accompanied you to Bloemfontein?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: I was accompanied by Capt Greyling who also worked in Port Elizabeth.

ADV GCABASHE: Was Mr Danster with you when you went to fetch Sizwe Kondile?

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes proceed.

JOHANNES GODFREY RAATH: After I detained him I informed Capt du Plessis that he was being detained at Humansdorp.   Later Sizwe Kondile was transferred to Jeffrey's Bay where the interrogation continued.
	I was at all times in contact with du Plessis.  Sometimes we jointly interrogated him, sometimes I was alone, he was alone.