Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

<UNKNOWN>: . . . it was Stompie if you say at the time of the stabbing you could not see the person who was stabbed?

<UNKNOWN>: I heard the following day when I woke up, I went to where I saw Winnie, there was absolutely nothing, no water, but I could see droplets of blood and I went into the other rooms where the other people had been assaulted and I found, I tried to find out from them as to where Stompie was because he wasn't in his room. They said Stompie had been taken by Richardson the previous night.

<UNKNOWN>: They told you that Richardson had taken Stompie the previous night.

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, that is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you ever see Stompie again?

<UNKNOWN>: Not at all.

<UNKNOWN>: Was there anybody living at the house apart from the young children of the Mandela family who were the size of the person you saw Richardson carry out to the Jacuzzi that evening?

<UNKNOWN>: Absolutely not.

<UNKNOWN>: You saw Richardson carrying a person out from a particular room, is that correct?

<UNKNOWN>: That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: In which room was Stompie . . .

<UNKNOWN>: From the room that had a sliding door.

<UNKNOWN>: After Stompie was assaulted, in which room was he living in the house? Did you know?

<UNKNOWN>: At which stage are you referring to.

<UNKNOWN>: After Stompie was assaulted do you know in which room Stompie went to sleep at night?

<UNKNOWN>: He slept in the room with the sliding door.

<UNKNOWN>: The room from which you saw Richardson on the night carry a small person.

<UNKNOWN>: That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: There was no other person in the house who fitted the description of the small person you saw Richardson carry?

<UNKNOWN>: No.

<UNKNOWN>: OK. Mr Chairman, if I may just address you, in so far as the rest of the evidence is concerned and taking into the account the lateness of the hour, subject to you permission and authority, I think allow me to then lead this witness to other matters and then if there is anything that we have to dwell on, if there is anything that we have to dwell on then we can deal with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I would be grateful if you would and do it as swiftly as you can without prejudicing the witness.

<UNKNOWN>: Now, the death of Stompie Sepei resulted in you or in your arrest together with Mrs Mandela and certain other people. Is that correct?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, that is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: And you were arrested and you were then released on bail?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, that is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Your evidence is to the effect that you laid a complaint against Mrs Mandela. You laid the complaint with a Cpt. Dempsey and you laid the complaint with the Prosecutor with the name of Van Vuuren. Is that correct?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, that is true.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you accuse Mrs Mandela of having done anything to these gentlemen?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, I accused Mrs Mandela but they did not believe my story. I went to the police to report the matter that is Stompie's death and they told me straight that they didn't believe me and I went to Prosecutor Van Vuuren. He also expressed views that he did not believe me. I requested to see the Judge. I got lost at some stage.

<UNKNOWN>: But I understand that at a later stage your freedom was interrupted were you arrested again. Correct?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes. That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: And the police officers took you to the house of Mrs Mandela?

<UNKNOWN>: No, that is not correct.

<UNKNOWN>: . . . to the house of Mrs Mandela?

<UNKNOWN>: I saw her in the office. I saw her in the office in 1988. I was not a politically aware person and many people were being killed . . . (indistinct) from an area that had a lot of violence and I was from a poor home, I had gone to Johannesburg to try and earn some means of living.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Cebukhulu concentrate on the question and try and answer the question. OK. I understand that at a certain stage you were assaulted and you ended up in hospital. Is that correct?

<UNKNOWN>: That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: And that occurred after you had been arrested together with Mrs Mandela and other people in connection with the death of Stompie. Is that correct?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, that is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: You went to see Mrs Mandela in a building in the centre of Johannesburg. Do you remember the name of that building?

<UNKNOWN>: No. I don't remember the name of the building. I do remember the name. Morgan told me to accompany him, he was going to Johannesburg, City Centre, I went with him. When we got there it was the very first time for me to see Shell House. I had not been there before. When we got into Shell House, we got into a lift, we . . .

<UNKNOWN>: OK. Mr Cebukhulu, Morgan took you to Shell House, Shell House we all know to be the head quarters of the ANC in Johannesburg at that time, you went into Shell House and you were introduced to Mrs Mandela. Is that correct?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, that is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Mrs Mandela gave you an option, you can do this or you can do that. What is the option she gave you?

<UNKNOWN>: She said if I would either go to Swaziland or she would do as she pleased with me.

<UNKNOWN>: And did she promise you anything in Swaziland?

<UNKNOWN>: Yes, she promised me that if I go to Swaziland she would help me to further my education and give me some accommodation and some money.

<UNKNOWN>: I see, now, you then made an election. What did you elect to do, you elected to go to Swaziland?

<UNKNOWN>: I agreed because I was scared.

<UNKNOWN>: Why were you scared?

<UNKNOWN>: I was scared to go to wherever she wanted me to go to.

<UNKNOWN>: But you weren't scared to go to Swaziland?

<UNKNOWN>: No, I was scared of Mrs Mandela herself, so I elected to go to Swaziland because I was scared to be around her.

<UNKNOWN>: I understand you were then met two men who have something to do with the African National Congress and they took you to Swaziland. Is that correct?

<UNKNOWN>: That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: From Swaziland you were met . . .

<UNKNOWN>: They gave me to two unknown men who travelled me through the forest and at a later stage I was taken to Mozambique, I was handed over to another unknown male who said his name was Teddy, and this Teddy took me, I did not have a plane ticket, I did not have any clothes with but I was flown all by myself and I got to Angola.
 I was also taken by another unknown person in Angola who introduced himself to me as Desta or Dexter. I was taken to Zambia. When I got to Zambia I was told not to run away and I was kept in a room. They interrogated me and they said I was working with the police because Winnie had told them that but I denied all the allegations. They asked me as to how Siswe Tola(?) died.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Cebukhulu if I may interrupt you, you then arrived in Zambia and that would have been, when was that, can you give us a date, more or less, that would have been when?

<UNKNOWN>: I think I arrived in Zambia. Yes, I think it was in 1989, I remember the day I was taken, it was on a Friday because on that Monday I was due to appear in Court.

<UNKNOWN>: . . . put the question differently. How long after you saw the stabbing take place in the house of Mrs Mandela did you arrive in Zambia, approximately. Two or three days, two or three weeks, two or three months. Just approximately.

<UNKNOWN>: I think it was after some months.

<UNKNOWN>: Right, after a number of months? Let me repeat the question. You arrived in Zambia after a number of months, is that correct?

<UNKNOWN>: I think I arrived in Zambia in 1991.

<UNKNOWN>: . . . (inaudible) did you end up in prison in Zambia?

<UNKNOWN>: That is correct, I was incarcerated.

<UNKNOWN>: . . . how long were you in prison in Zambia?

<UNKNOWN>: I remained for two years and eight months.

<UNKNOWN>: Who was the person instrumental in your release? You indicate Mrs . . .

<UNKNOWN>: The person sitting next to me.

<UNKNOWN>: . . . sitting next to you?