Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-12

CHAIRPERSON: You mean there was nothing else you could do to get her out of there?  She was a woman, if I read these papers correctly, she was about thirty years of age, she was living on her own with a young child, a girl, you mean to say that entire community could do absolutely nothing to get her to leave the area?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: In my statement I said that chief told the community that there's no one who is going to be killed.  What should happen is the person who has been pointed out as a witch should leave the village.  That is why we didn't have the powers to kill the four of them.  So we as youth could kill any person as we wished that would mean that were against the chief himself.  We agreed with the chief that we are not going to kill anybody, we'll just make them leave the village.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now that is the point that I can't understand.  You then went and you killed the deceased.  Now why did you do that?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Our agreement with the chief was that if somebody is pointed out as a witch should leave the village.  The deceased was killed because she resisted.  She refused to leave the village when she was supposed to leave the village.  That angered the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and the understanding was that she would be killed only if she refuses, if she didn't want to leave?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you are saying that she refused to leave, if I understand you evidence correctly, because she walked out of the meeting?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And there were no steps taken after that to get her to leave the area?  Do you agree?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: I think that by walking out of the meeting was a sign of her refusal to leave the village.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes possibly at that point because she was saying that she was not a witch?  I agree with you but I think you will agree with me that after she walked out there, there were no steps taken to get her to leave.  You simply went through there to her house in the middle of the night and you killed her?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes I do agree with you.

CHAIRPERSON: And what I'm trying to understand is, are you saying there was absolutely nothing you could do as a community to get her to leave after she walked out of the meeting?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes that is true, we failed to take steps and we ended up killing her.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I mean you could have toyi-toyed.  I've listened to many of these cases and that's another peculiarity that I'll raise with you in a minute.  You could have toyi-toyed there as a community, as a youth league, you could have intimidated her, you could have spoken to the chief, you could have spoken to the police even, to say there's strong suspicion that she was involved in the death of her family and you want her to leave.  Would you agree with that?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes I do agree with you but we would not consult the police because the police and the soldiers were there, everywhere in the country.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes now the other thing that I would like to raise about this particular incident is that the entire community is in favour of killing the deceased?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: I would add by saying that even at her funeral nobody apart from her immediate family attended the funeral.

CHAIRPERSON: In this particular instance you are four - three of you are close relatives and while I'm at it, the other one, David, was he a friend of yours?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: I would put it this way, in our village where I lived, we were all related.  That is why many people will have the same surname like Sekgobela and we'll have identical names.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but you said earlier that David is not related to you.  I'm just trying to find out what your relationship was.  You might be distant relatives, I accept that, but were you friends, you and David?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Just to continue where I stopped, now you've got three close relatives and a good friend.  These four of you, you go in the middle of the night and you attack this woman in her house.  Now is there any reason why at that meeting if it was the unanimous view of the community and they were angry, why they didn't toyi-toyi to her house and deal with her there and then?  Why do they settle for the secretive operation here in the middle of the night if this was indeed a political incident?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: We did not kill her in the middle of the night, we went there around 7 o'clock after we have left the ground.  Yes it was dark.

CHAIRPERSON: So you killed her under the cover of darkness, secretly?  You didn't kill her openly.

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is because we were also afraid of the police, like I have said that the police and the soldiers were there so we were actually against the police and the soldiers.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so I think you will then agree that this is not an open killing by a crowd of people who toyi-toyi, chant political slogans and then go to deal with somebody who is regarded as a threat.  You go under cover of darkness, quietly so that you can't be discovered and then you kill her?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: I agree with you because we were afraid of the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say that you were close friends, good friends with the husband of the deceased.  Now after the death of the husband, was this deceased, was she engaged in some other relationship?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: No I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you knew the husband well, did the husband never indicate what sort of behaviour you would expect from the wife should he die one day in regard to relationships?  For example sometimes you hear husbands who say that wives should never dare to form another relationship if they die, if the husband dies?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: I have never heard them talking about that in my presence.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems to be also that you attacked this deceased with axes and such like weapons, is that right?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that you had virtually chopped off her neck?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Has the Panel got other questions?

ADV SANDI: No thank you Chairperson.

ADV SIBANYONI: Maybe just one, Chairperson.
	Did you complete this application form on your own?

GOLDEN HOLIDAY SEKGOBELA: That is correct.

ADV SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Re-examination Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: No re-examination.  That is the applicant's case.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Sekgobela you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, do you intend to present any evidence?

MS MTANGA: No evidence Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Richard, have you got any submissions on the merits of the application?