Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you, Madam Chair.  Just be brief Mr Radebe.
MR RADEBE
"I think it was early 19, late 1992 or early 1993.  Somewhere around there.  The comrades informed me that they assaulted Gogo and them, yes, I was informed and I came to know that those girls were assaulted.  When this group was assaulted Maletsatsi was not present, and she disappeared into town and she lived at Kwamadala Hostel.  There is a girl called Makazasa Gambu.  I also heard that she was involved with them.
		One day we went to Makazasa's home to ask her questions, and she was not telling us the truth, but some people confirmed that they saw her among a group of Inkatha members in town.  There was no information received out of her, and we left her.  We went to Mandlela's home to look for her.  We could not find her.  She was now permanently living in town.  We were using Maletsatsi's place as a place of our hiding, because the police could not even suspect that a place belonging to a girl could be used to hide things.  
		One day it was at night when the whites came, they did not find us  because we heard the sounds of their cars and we ran away.  The next day the neighbours told us that is was Maletsatsi in the company of the boers.  It was evident for us that what we heard was true, because here she was with the police.  There were two ladies Thandi and, Thandi Dlamini and Naniki Tshabalala.  One day when they went to town Maletsatsi and her gang took them to a place called Steel Park and they were assaulted and they were locked inside a house.  They managed to escape."

MS MOLOISANE: Is that what you were told by Thandi and Naniki?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, on their return.  I think we heard it being spoke in the township, but as comrades we went to them to get first hand information.  There was a certain comrade called Kennel.
"One day, I do not remember where we came from, but it was in the morning at about 4 o'clock, I think we were from Zone 7, we met at a certain place and he informed all the comrades.  He said, '..comrades, we had such comrades in the organisation and they removed themselves from the organisation and those comrades are now living with comrades.'  And he informed us that  '...do you see one of our comrades had just been shot last week.  It was close to the shops.  Close to Maletsatsi's home.''
		Before that there was a certain comrade called Moscow, he's now in the South African National Defence Force.  At that time he was the chairperson of Cosas in Mpuluzi.  He addressed this issue with the students.  He said '...comrades we must know from now that comrade Maletsatsi ... and he mentioned others, he said '...they now reside in town, they are members of, they are with the IFP.' 
		Now it was known in the whole township that Maletsatsi is not to be seen.  Because some of the girls in the organisation were complaining that they had been to Kwamadala, they had been inside, but they did not go voluntarily, they were lured.  There were new shops that were opened in Vereeniging.  The first one Crystal Palace, or it's called American Palace, and Giddys.  Maletsatsi did not have money, but she managed to give these girls a lot of money and take them to town knowing exactly who they were going to meet.  
		Now when these girls came out of Kwamadala they informed us, they said '...comrades, we come from such and such a place.  It was not intentionally.  Maletsatsi is very free right in there, she is the leader, and she is in front of all the, all the assaults taking place in town.'"

MS MOLOISANE: Who are those girls who gave you this report?

JOHN RADEBE: The first one is Gogo, Ellen, I personally spoke to Makazasa Gambu.  And she told me about Kwamadala, and she described how Maletsatsi lived in there with Getisi, Dondo, Hanta Ndlovu, and many of the IFP men.  After comrade Kennel spread this message of Maletsatsi's killing I ...(intervention).

MR LAX: Sorry, sorry sir.  What message about Maletsatsi's killing?  You haven't told us anything about such a message.  Would you please just ..

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you're still talking about comrade Moscow.

JOHN RADEBE: I said Moscow informed us that Maletsatsi was no longer a member of the organisation, and there was no meeting that Maletsatsi would attend, and that Maletsatsi was now living in town with Getisi.  He was addressing the pupils and those of us who were present at the school.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's right.  You are now mentioning comrade Paulus as if you've already given evidence about him.  You have not yet given anything concerning Mr Paulus, comrade Kennel Paulus.

MS MOLOISANE: Who is this comrade Kennel Paulus?

JOHN RADEBE: He was a member of Umkhonto weSiswe.

MS MOLOISANE: Is it Kennel Paulus Malekwane?  Is it the same person?

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: Continue.  What message about Maletsatsi's killing did he give you?

JOHN RADEBE: I think it was in the morning, 4 o'clock, he said "...comrades you must know from now that Maletsatsi lives in such a place and they are assaulting people."  He said, "...Maletsatsi takes our comrades who happen to be her friends and she takes them to Inkatha."  He said, "...comrades she must be killed."  That's all.  I then left to go and join the unit in Zone 12, that is comrade Mabusa's unit.  ...(intervention)

MS MOLOISANE: Just before you proceed.  When was that when comrade Kennel gave you this message?

JOHN RADEBE: I'm going to make a big mistake if I say I remember when, but it was in 1993, before May.

MS MOLOISANE: Yes, proceed.

JOHN RADEBE: I went to join comrade Mabusa's unit because we were based together at Maletsatsi's place.  If it was difficult in the other side comrades would run to the other side.  We then discussed and realised that Maletsatsi's issue was very, Maletsatsi was dangerous, and the decision that she must be killed because she was the most dangerous amongst all, because she participated in a lot of activities of the ANC.  She ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose?  You then discussed, who are you referring to when you say we then discussed about the Maletsatsi issue?

JOHN RADEBE: We were discussing the issue, her involvement in town.

MR LAX: The question was who was we?  Who were you discussing this with?  Whose the we?

JOHN RADEBE: Comrade Mabusa, comrade Godfrey, and other comrades who belonged to the unit.  We discussed Maletsatsi's activities in town.  Comrade Mabusa issued out an order.  He said to me "...Umkhonto, should you meet her," because even if I hid somewhere I was supposed to go back to the house and take a bath, that's how my order came out, he said I should shoot her.  Indeed one day when we were at comrade Sipho Tshabalala's home, we were just sitting outside.  If I remember well we had a problem with a gun and we were fixing it.  I think this boy Zakhele Shoba who came to us was ten, if not twelve years old then.  On his arrival he told us that Thandi sent him to call us to her place, and they needed us to bring the material.  We comprehended what the material was.  Material referred to something like a firearm.  We then left for Thandi's place.  The Small Farm office was very far.  Now we used Thandi's home because it was the nearest to us and we would put some benches outside, sit and have our gatherings.  When I arrived at Thandi's house, it was full of comrades.  Majiga was there, comrade Yebohang Gambu was there, yes, Nchanyana was also there.  I asked a question, "...comrades, where did you get this wanted person?"  They said she was travelling in a train ...(intervention)

MS MOLOISANE: Who are you referring to?

JOHN RADEBE: I was referring to Maletsatsi Marumo.