Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-25

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: The Shabalala family?

MR WILLS: Yes.

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: You're not aware of anything, any visit to their house by members of the security branch on the 20th of July 1990?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Chairperson, if you can just bear with me, I think I'm finished, I just want to check my notes?

MR WILLS: There was mention of Ndaba being offered R50 000 to go and relocate himself elsewhere.

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Were you aware of that discussion?  I mean apart from the evidence, you hear in evidence here, I'm talking about you at the time, were you part of that discussion where he was made this offer?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson, I became aware of that later on.

MR WILLS: Do you know if the R50 000 was drawn from the sources where you get this money from?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I think Botha told me that it had been done, that R50 000 had been withdrawn.

MR WILLS: So do you know what happened to the R50 000?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Thank Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

MS THABETHE: I have no questions Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR VISSER: One question please Chairperson.
	When you arrested Mr Shabalala, Mr du Preez, was the purpose to take him to the police station or what was the aim with his arrest?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: The purpose was not to arrest him to lock him up.  The purpose of the arrest was to protect Ndaba.

MR VISSER: But we are now referring to Shabalala.  Was the purpose to take him to the court and charge him?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR LAX: Well what was the purpose of arresting him?  Had you even thought about what you might do with him once you'd arrested him?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson, the purpose of his arrest was the protection of Ndaba.

MR LAX: But you had a meeting where you planned what might happen at that meeting of Ndaba and Shabalala, isn't that so?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: You had that meeting, you planned who was going to go where roughly and what the signals would be and so on?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR LAX: And during that planning did you not work out if you had to arrest Shabalala what you were going to do with him, surely it must have been a possibility you had to consider?

MR WILLS: Chairperson as far as I can recall there was no reason, I didn't believe that Shabalala would be arrested.

MR LAX: So in fact you didn't plan for it at all?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR LAX: Now on the - you didn't question Ndaba yourself?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR LAX: You didn't have any discussions with him or interrogation of him or debriefing of him?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR LAX: Now with regard to Shabalala, we heard yesterday that Botha gave an instruction that he wasn't to be questioned, is that right?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I can't recall such an order, it could be possible but we didn't question him.

MR LAX: You see your colleague Wasserman told us that Botha gave that instruction because he gave a reason why that instruction was given, the instruction was that you weren't going to get anything out of him because you already had Ndaba who was your informer and that's why you went to talk to Shabalala?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is how I saw it Chairperson, there was no necessity to question him.

MR LAX: But as we've now heard Shabalala was in fact Ndaba's commander, you would have got a great deal out of him if you had really gone for it?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I don't think that is true, Chairperson.

MR LAX: You're saying that - you don't believe what is not true?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: The evidence that Mr Mac Maharaj gave about that, I don't think that's true.

MR LAX: But you wouldn't know because you didn't know Shabalala number one and number two, you never questioned him and you never questioned Ndaba so how can you possibly be in a position to say that isn't true?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, as far as what Botha had told us, I never doubted the fact that Ndaba was not the commander.

CHAIRPERSON: You never doubted that Ndaba was not the commander?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That Ndaba was the commander.

MR LAX: Now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you question Shabalala at all?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: I talked to Shabalala to find out who he was, I never questioned him concerning activities.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you questioned him about his identity?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR LAX: Now Ndaba was your informer and you told you were moving him to another safe house, this was on the 14th, is that right?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR LAX: Why did you blindfold and handcuff your informer?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Because he went with Shabalala at that stage, they travelled together in the vehicle.

MR LAX: Yes but if Shabalala was blindfolded and handcuffed, he wouldn't know that Ndaba was blindfolded and handcuffed at all?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Well that is how it happened and he was told that that is how it was going to take place.

MR LAX: Who was told this is how we're going to do it?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Ndaba.

MR LAX: I see and so he didn't suspect anything at that stage?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: No.

MR LAX: Now let's talk about the C20 people for a moment.  If you - what were they doing in the area, the C20 people?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: They were there to do identification with persons and also to talk to the informers who were at home.

MR LAX: That's not why they were there at all, they were there to identify people, it was purely coincidental, purely coincidental that they ended up speaking to the informers and in fact there was only one informer, not two informers?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I'm referring to the four, the other four informers.  They were there to talk to those people.

MR LAX: So were there another four informers at the farmhouse?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR LAX: Okay.  Were those people also being held at that house?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: They weren't detained.

MR LAX: Were they staying at the house?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Yes, they stayed at the house.

MR LAX: Botha and if one looks at D, annexure D, page 7 of that annexure and paragraph 34 and 35 thereof, the impression created there and that was the impression I had from his evidence and that impression was confirmed yesterday by Mr Wasserman, was that the C20 people were not involved with Shabalala and Ndaba other than to use the Afrikaans term the "toevallige gesprek" that they had with Botha's permission I might add with Shabalala and Ndaba, that is the full extent of their involvement from his evidence and from these two paragraphs?

SIMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: Chairperson I was never present when they were questioned that was Ndaba or Shabalala.