Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-01

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: On the same day, that's the 10th to which I'm referring, I can't remember whether I received the phone call or whether it was Colonel van der Merwe who received the call, but the information was relayed during this phone call was that the operation was disposed of, that.....

ADV VISSER: Just a moment please.  Please continue.

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: That five people had died in the process, that one had been wounded and he had been transported to Alldays, that the Defence Force Captain, Captain Bourne had also been wounded and he'd been taken to Pietersburg.
	We were also told or information which ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry to interrupt you there.  Mr Visser I think the witness should tell us from whom he got this report, because if he

ADV VISSER: (...indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Well let him give us the name first, because I don't think it would be correct to go on getting this information if he doesn't tell us from whom he got it.

ADV VISSER: Certainly Mr Chairman.  From whom did you receive this report?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: According to my knowledge it came from Captain Piet Dreyer.

ADV VISSER: You may continue.

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: I'm not exactly sure where I was.

ADV VISSER: Let's start from the beginning.  He said that five people had been killed and one wounded person was taken to Alldays?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: That's correct, and that Captain Mike Bourne had also been wounded during the incident and he was taken to Pietersburg.
	According to information received these six terrorists had been on their way to Pietersburg Railway Station where they were to meet a person who would have been wearing a yellow shirt or yellow scarf. 
	As a result of this information, Colonel Willem van der Merwe and I and there was one other person present, I can't remember who it was, it might have been Captain Manie van Staden, we then went to the railway station where we kept observation for a long period to identify this person but we couldn't.

ADV VISSER: There was no such person?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: No there wasn't.

ADV VISSER: Some of what you've just said could also be information which you received afterwards because you also received reports from Erwee?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Yes we did receive reports later on.

ADV DE JAGER: Just before we come to the later reports, after the chairperson told you to mention the names of the people you said, as far as my knowledge goes it was Captain Dreyer.  Is that correct?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Yes that's correct.

ADV VISSER: Now what do you mean by, as far as I know? Did he speak to you himself, who did he speak to, how did you know it was him?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: As I said originally I can't remember whether the phone call was put through to myself or Colonel Willem van der Merwe with the information about the outcome of the events but it was definitely Captain Piet Dreyer who had made the call but I don't know whether he spoke to me personally or whether it was just conveyed to me.

ADV VISSER: And afterwards you received further reports or not?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: There was a discussion afterwards, after the incident, during which there was a full sketch of what had happened.

ADV VISSER: Now who were present at this discussion meeting?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: It was Colonel Erwee definitely. I can't remember the other people present.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Vissser, when did this discussion take place?

ADV VISSER: Could you answer that question, was it on the same day, was it the next day or was it when?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: No it could have been the next day or a couple of days afterwards, it was definitely not the same day.

ADV VISSER: Was it also reported to you that something had been found in the combi that the passengers had had something with them in their possession?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Yes Chairperson.

ADV VISSER: What exactly did the report say?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: There were AK47's, there were limpet mines and also handgrenades.

ADV VISSER: You personally handed over an amount of money to Mr Matthew Sehlwana, can you remember that?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Yes an amount of money, an amount of      R2 000 was handed to Matthew.  I can't tell the Committee that I handed it to him, that could have been the case.

ADV VISSER: I'm sorry I actually made a mistake by putting it to you as a fact, but Mr Matthew says on page 10 paragraph 12 of his statement that it was in fact you. You won't deny that that could have been the case?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: No I won't deny that.

ADV VISSER: Can you remember that it was R2 000?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Yes it was R2 000, I remember that well.

ADV VISSER: Matthews says that you called him to your office and said that he had done good work. Would that more-or-less have been the gist of that conversation when you handed over the money to him?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: I would agree with that.

ADV VISSER: And the money was then handed to him as a reward for a courageous deed, for a courageous deed performed?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Correct yes.

ADV VISSER: Mr Coetsee if I ask you, did you according to your insights then and now, did you do anything wrong?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: No Chairperson.

ADV VISSER: You're sitting here today and you're asking for amnesty, why is that so?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Chairperson there was a shooting incident here in which people were killed. I can't play judge in my own case and decide whether I acted correctly or incorrectly in this respect, and after Archbishop Tutu's call to people to apply for amnesty if they were in any doubt that I think was my main motive for applying for amnesty. Information came to my ears that the Attorney General was actually doing a criminal investigation into this matter.

ADV VISSER: Yes, were you personally approached by any representatives of the Attorney General's office or not?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: No.

ADV VISSER: And are you saying that what you did you did in the execution of your duties as a policeman and in terms of standing orders which existed and which were applicable to yourself in the Police Force at the time of the incident?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Correct yes.

ADV VISSER: As regards the fact that we know, especially now with hindsight, that there was a political connotation to what happened in 1986 in your attempts to combat sabotage, insurgence, violence etc, and also as regards people with different political convictions.

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Correct.

ADV VISSER: If you could perhaps sketch your political motivation for the Committee, how would you express that?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Our actions or my actions were aimed at protecting the state.  It was one of the ANC/SACP Alliance's objectives to violently overthrow the government of the day.

ADV VISSER: On page 24 Chairperson, on typed page 3 of the report, paragraph 10A and 10B you set out your motivation, do you confirm that that was indeed the motivation in terms of which you acted?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: Correct.

ADV VISSER: And in your report you also mention the statement made by Mr Andre Johannes Gerhardus Erwee in respect of the facts of the incident, the incident where you were not present, and you also request the Committee to look at that.

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: That is correct.

ADV VISSER: And lastly, I actually forgot to put this to Colonel van der Merwe, but on page 27 paragraph 10, you also ask that the submission that the Foundation for Equality before the Law and General Jan Velde van der Merwe's submission on the 21st of October of last year also be made applicable to your amnesty application, the content of that insofar as it is relevant?

NICHOLAS STEPHANUS COETSEE: That is correct yes.