Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Certain parts.   I attended for a brief few days in Pretoria.   Other than in the Pretoria Town Hall, I did not attend any of the hearings at all, so I wouldn't know what was said there.

GEORGE BIZOS: And the trial in the High Court?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Unfortunately, I could not attend any of the days at the trial.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, are there any questions...

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No questions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...you wish to put to this witness?
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: On behalf of Mr Walus, have you any questions?

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you.   He's busy taking out something, Mr Chairman, back, Mr Chairman, the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Pardon?

MR PRINSLOO: I'm about to ask him questions, but the witness was busy with something else at this stage.   I'm going to ask him a question.

GEORGE BIZOS: The witness has been taking things out of a bag.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Clark, during 1993, were you a member of the Conservative Party?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Yes, I was.

MR PRINSLOO: And did you support the Conservative Party?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Yes, I did, definitely.

MR PRINSLOO: In any way, at that stage, during 1993, as you have already testified, you perceived a state of undeclared war, is that correct?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Undeclared, yes.   As Dr Treurnicht appeared under a large banner which stated that the third struggle for freedom had begun.

MR PRINSLOO: You said that you had a large group of friends and in your society which you experienced, everybody was experiencing the same feelings that you were experiencing.  Did you think in any way that anything noticeable would emerge with the CODESA negotiations, at that stage?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Chairperson, there was a small chance, but if one had to think about it realistically, the chances were pretty much zero, one could only have hoped that someone more sensible, or meaningful would come to the fore, but that is not what happened.

MR PRINSLOO: There was testimony from those who experienced it, that CODESA was ruled by members of the Communist Party?

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, where was that from, where was this evidence?

MR PRINSLOO: That's the evidence of Mr Derby-Lewis.

GEORGE BIZOS: It is apparent to me that the counsel for the applicants has consulted with this witness.   If that be so, if that be so, because, okay, they're the ones that requested him, he answered their request, I'm assuming that they consulted, he is a person who is particularly friendly ...(intervention).

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...towards Mr Derby-Lewis, and I would appeal that any questions are going to be asked, they be not put in the form of cross-examination, but rather in examination, Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson, yesterday morning in your chambers ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: This is not a trial, this is a committee of inquiry, and if questions exceed the bounds of reasonableness, we will stop.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, for the record, at no stage did I consult with Mr Clark with regard to calling him in this commission, at no stage.   So where Mr ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, proceed with your question.   Try and make it as relevant as possible.

MR PRINSLOO: I'll do that, Mr Chairman.   Did you, at that point in time, as you have said there was a state of war and there was testimony from Dr Hartzenberg and others who said that they would have fought for this territory ...(inter-vention).

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: ...at that stage did you think that any election would help to prevent a takeover of the country, to be realistic?

CHAIRPERSON: You know, I think that we've got all that evidence.

GEORGE BIZOS: (Inaudible), he's not being correctly ...(inter-vention).

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Hartzenberg's evidence is to the contrary, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that we have evidence about Mr Derby-Lewis's and others that there was some kind of a state of war as far as they were concerned.   I don't know whether there's any need to repeat all that.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, in view of the fact of the questions that was put by Mr Bizos to this witness, and his perceptions, that's what I'm asking him about.

CHAIRPERSON: Well his perceptions were that there was, as far as he's concerned, a state of war, an undeclared war.

MR PRINSLOO: I'll accept that, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: He's gone to the extent of saying that had he been asked by Mr Derby-Lewis to take part in any assassi-nation, he may have considered joining Mr Derby-Lewis, he's gone to that extent.

MR PRINSLOO: I'll pose another question, Mr Chairman, I'll leave it at that.   Mr Clark, did you see that there would be a definite takeover by a majority government, the ANC/ SACP alliance?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Just to correct you, not a majority government, the South African Communist Party was a very small minority, they controlled the ANC as a minority within the majority of the ANC party, and in that sense it would be as in all other communist governments worldwide, that a minority would rule and not the majority, and that the majority would remain the victims.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you see that there would be such a takeover?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you feel that that kind of takeover would be able to be stopped by an election?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: One, to the largest degree, should not remove passivism, but in that stage we tried to keep the passive road open, one should never close a door behind one that one cannot open again, and that is why one should proceed along those channels, although it would appear to be futile, and if the Almighty opened another door for you, then one should go through that door.

MR PRINSLOO: No further questions, thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: On behalf of Mr Walus, do you have any questions?

UNKNOWN: The questions which Mr Bizos asked emphasised that it was not only about the anti-Christ and the struggle, was that all that it was about?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: The anti-Christ probably is quite a large element, because religious freedom does not exist within a communist government, it is, or religion is oppressed, but it was about communism, communism was the major issue in this case.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

GEORGE BIZOS: At an earlier stage ...(intervention).

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

GEORGE BIZOS: At an earlier stage you produced and sought to hand in a letter you received from the Freedom Front?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: That is correct, sir, I have two documents here.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well did that letter say that Mr Visser, who gave evidence before us today, had never been a member of the Freedom Front?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: That is correct, sir.

GEORGE BIZOS: Could I have a look at it please?

EDWIN JOHN CLARK: With pleasure, sir.   May I also submit another letter which states that the money I'm supposed to have stolen, after an internal investigation by JCI, was in fact found to have been stolen from the postal service and not from the building JCI itself?   I have five documents here which will attest to that fact, that that letter was stolen from the post and not from JCI itself.
INAUDIBLE DISCUSSION REGARDING DOCUMENTS

CHAIRPERSON: We are concerned at this stage, not with Mr Visser's activities, except insofar as it relates to present proceedings.
INAUDIBLE DISCUSSION

GEORGE BIZOS: This letter will be AM.
LETTER REGARDING MEMBERSHIP OF FREEDOM FRONT HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT AM

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm told that there may be ...(intervention).

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.