Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1996-11-28

ADV NTSEBEZA: Are you reading from your statement?  I am just concerned that the evidence you are now leading may not be relevant to the issues.

MNR KLEYN: Dit is nou die probleem as jy nie 'n regsverteenwoordiger het nie.  Hierdie stukkie het ek vanoggend bygevoeg, mnr die Voorsitter, maar ek is heeltemal - u hoor wat dit is op band seker.  En dan het ek die ander betrokke Bewysstuk hier.  Ek het ook 'n afskrif vir u - van die bevinding van die Landdros, met die feite wat voor 'n dag gekom het nadat gister se getuies behoorlik onder kruisvraag geneem is - wat ek vir u kan inhandig.

ADV NTSEBEZA: I would suggest that maybe you read your statement till the end and then, you know, such ruling  as might be necessary on the statements and other documentation.  I will make after I have looked at the documents.

MNR KLEYN: Ek - jammer Mnr die Voorsitter, ek lei daarby af u wil nie he ek moet daardie getuienis wat onder kruisverhoor na vore gekom het by die getuies gister uitlees dan vir u nie.

ADV NTSEBEZA: No, no I don't.

MNR KLEYN: So, dit sal dan nie toelaatbaar wees nie.

ADV NTSEBEZA: No, I think what I will allow is for you to read your statement as you have set it out up to  Paragraph 33.

MNR KLEYN: Okay baie dankie - dankie mnr die  Voorsitter, ek verstaan.
Daar dien ook op gewys te word dat die familie van die oorledenes tydens die ondersoek verteenwoordig was deur 'n bekende en bekwame lid van die sybalie, Mnr Ebrahim, wat duidelik ook van oordeel was dat my optrede in die omstandighede geregverdig was.
33. In my meer as 30 jaar diens in die Suid-Afrikaanse Polisie en die 
Suid-Afrikaanse Polisiediens, was hierdie voorval die eerste en enigste keer dat ek ooit op 'n persoon gevuur het.  Ek hoop en vertrou dat ek nooit weer in 'n situasie sal beland waar dit vir my nodig sal wees om van my vuurwapen gebruik te maak nie, maar indien ek vandag weer in presies dieselfde omstandighede moet beland, sal ek waarskynlik weer op die persoon vuur ten einde te verhoed dat hy ontvlug.
Ek het dit geteken Edelagbare en dit is  beedig deur 'n Kommissaris van Ede.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you very much Superindendent Kleyn and maybe we -  you need to hand over now the signed statement and just keep a copy.

MNR KLEYN: Ja ek sien hier is nie 'n bode van die hof nie.

ADV NTSEBEZA: There is.

MS GOBODO: You are too fast.

ADV NTSEBEZA: You are too fast in everything.  Okay you are here now.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Thank you.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Okay.

MS GOBODO: Okay, ja it is signed.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Ja it is signed.   We will now take - we have - I have in front of me, what appears to be an inquest finding, isn't  it?

MNR KLEYN: Ja, the formal  - die formele geregtelike ondersoek na die dood van hierdie 7 persone, mnr die Voorsitter.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Ja I see.  I will receive it at this stage - depending a later finding at a stage when I will have to make a finding as to it's relevance, but I will receive it this stage.

MNR KLEYN: Thank you very much - baie dankie.

ADV NTSEBEZA: But it is obvious going to be of great assistance in us arriving at a balanced view of what the situation was.  But for the moment I think we should proceed and find out from the panel if there are questions that they want to put.  Mary?

MARY BURTON: Not for the moment.

ADV NTSEBEZA: For the moment.

MARY BURTON: [indistinct]

ADV NTSEBEZA: Okay, Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela?

MS GOBODO: Thank you adv Ntsebeza  I will just ask one question.  There  is something which I am struggling with.  We have heard in previous evidence there were two sources among the 7 men who were killed on that day.  In other words people who worked with you.  I wonder if you are aware of these sources?  Where you aware of the two people, two men, who were working with Superintendent Liebenberg, the Superintendent?

MNR KLEYN: Ek het vanoggend - mnr die Voorsitter, ek het vanoggend vir die eerste keer op die TV beeld gesien daarna en ek was dalk miskien net so verbaas soos u om daarvan te hoor.  Dit is die heel eerste keer dat ek daarvan hoor.  Ek was nie bewus van daardie sogenaamde bronne nie.

MS GOBODO: So, you had no idea about it?  No idea  obvious no idea but where they came from?  No idea of the Vlakplaas connection?

MNR KLEYN: Geensins nie

MS GOBODO: Until this morning?

MNR KLEYN: Korrek ja.

MS GOBODO: The reason I am posing the question is the fact that there was a grenade thrown at yourself or at the police.  And I wonder how this could be if you had men that have infiltrated this group.  And they could let something like that happen.  I mean, a grenade is probably unlike a gun, that has to been drawn, a grenade can be thrown at any time and it is dangerous and I wonder about that.
How - there is two sources.  Presumably they knew what sort of ammunition was in that Kombi.  And I would expect that they would prevent things like those happening.  In other words, they would make sure that things like grenades were not used - to protect their colleagues.
So, it strikes me as being strange that there was a grenade and a fully operating grenade there.  And in fact the question that comes to mind, is whether in fact it was a real and potent grenade.  I am not sure how these things work, but I am just wondering if it was a potent grenade, given the fact that there was sources within that team.

MNR KLEYN: Ek lei af, die stelling wat u my maak is  dat dit nie 'n regte handgranaat was nie. Maak ek die regte afleiding?  Jammer dat ek 'n vraag vir u moet vra.

MS GOBODO: The question comes to my mind.  I am just wondering and I don't think you can answer the question - since you didn't know that there were sources in the first instance.

MNR KLEYN: Ek het nie geweet daar is enige bronne nie, Edelagbare.  Dit is vir my 'n snaakse vraag om te beantwoord.  Ek wil nie - ek kan nie agter die strekking van die vraag kom nie.

MS GOBODO: I understand.  Well the crux of the question is really just about understanding how people you worked with, could allow for ammunition - things like grenades to be amongst their ammunition, that the 7 men were using.  Obviously their interest would be to yourselves as colleagues so if - it either they  - the grenades was not potent grenades or they were not aware that some of their partners - their partners were carrying the grenades.
You can't answer that question - I understand that you didn't know that there were sources, that's fine.  Thank you.

MNR KLEYN: Ek kan darem wel vir u se dat dit definitief 'n werklike granaat was.  Ek is nie 'n deskundige op handgranate nie, maar dit was 'n werklike granaat.  Ek was onder stof en sand gewees na die ontploffing.

MS GOBODO: Thank you - thank you very much.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you Ms Gobodo.   Potgieter, any questions?   Mary Burton?

MARY BURTON: Thank you adv Ntsebeza  I would like to ask about the first meeting that you attended to discuss the preparations for this incident.  When was the first time when you were part of any planning?

MNR KLEYN: Mnr Voorsitter ek het hier gesit en ek het gehoor dat julle heelwat klem gele het daar - hier by die vorige getuie, of ek nie dalk teenwoordig was by die vorige vergadering nie.   En ek het werklik my kop gebreek om te dink - was ek nie dalk daar nie of was ek daar.  Maar ek kan werklik waar - ek is met u baie eerlik, ek kan nie dink dat ek by die - ek het geen rede om vir u 'n leuen te vertel nie, maar ek kan dit werklik waar nie onafhanklik onthou nie dat ek by die eerste geleentheid wat ek afhanklik onthou is daardie oggend wat ons by Wingfield bymekaar gekom het.

MARY BURTON: That was 3 o'clock or so in the morning on that day?

MNR KLEYN: Ja, korrek.  As iemand, wat daar was die vorige vergadering dalk na vore toe kan kom en se ek was daar en probeer om my geheue te verfris, maar ek kan werklik waar nie onthou of ek daar was nie.  Ek dink nie so nie.