Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.   When I speak about a disciplined organisation, I speak of my own area.   My area was absolutely disciplined and very, very ...(indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: : And it is good discipline to take liquor before going on a military operation?   Can I just finish my question unless you know the balance of it?   It is good discipline to ...   It is still good discipline to take liquor before going on a military operation;  before staging a revolution?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's not good discipline to go out on a military mission.   But in a paramilitary operation, it would be a different matter altogether.

CHAIRPERSON: : I'm talking solely about the AWB on this question.  That night it was good discipline to take liquor before going on an AWB military operation that day?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : I do not agree that it was such good discipline.

CHAIRPERSON: : Why did you ... If you were going on an AWB military operation and you knew that it would not have been good discipline, then why was that done?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : At previous occasions, at meetings and during marches that we held, we did use alcohol and for the higher officers, it was not a problem.   Therefore, it was not for me a problem, that evening to have a few drinks.

CHAIRPERSON: : Thank you.   Mr Dreyer.

MR MALAN: : Just before Mr Dreyer continues.  I am not sure if I heard you correctly.   When the Chairperson asked you if it was good discipline to drink before an operation, but you said not at a military instance, but at a paramilitary operation.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : I did not say good.   I said there was a difference at a paramilitary organisation.
ADV.PRINSLOO:: In other words, it could be good.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : If you look at the discipline thereof, it would not be good.

MR MALAN: : But the question was, was this good discipline when you go out on a mission and you said that at a military operation, no, but at a paramilitary operation, it would be possible.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : I do not think that it would be well to go under the influence of alcohol.

MR MALAN: : And then do you say you should not have drank alcohol that evening before you went on the operation?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : Yes.

MR MALAN: : Thank you.  Mr Chairman, I notice it's already 11h15.

CHAIRPERSON: : Thank you.   We will adjourn until 11h30.
HEARING ADJOURNS TO 11H30
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: : Mr Dreyer, it may be that the witness's complaint is justified against long questions, which he finds difficult to follow.   Please try to make your questions... try to make them as short and direct to the point as possible.   You must also bear in mind that the witness is not in the best of health.

MR DREYER: : Mr Chairman, I missed the last part.   I'm sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: : No, no, no.   I am not trying to say you must finish your cross-examining.   I'm just saying... I am talking about the way you frame your questions.   I am trying to say that make them as short as possible.   I am not saying shorten your cross-examination.

MR DREYER: : I take note, Mr Chairman.   Mr Kloppers after I asked you questions, there were questions by the Committee Members, and we diverted from the line of questioning I was busy with.   Do you remember that I put it to you here that at the flat, Brandy and Whisky was consumed, and you said, no you only drank First Watch Whisky.   Is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That is correct.

MR DREYER: : What I don't understand then is during the Criminal Procedures, when you were asked about it and I would refer you to page 640 and 641, and your representative refers you again to the statement;  and he reads from the statement -he says look at the statement, the following paragraph, and then you say:  `The vehicle that we were driving in was a Mercedes and a White Sentra.   At Andre's flat, all of us drank from the First Watch Whisky,' and then you say:  `That is correct.'   And then your Advocate asks something else, and then you say:  `There's an addition to that.   We had consumed or we had a bottle of Brandy.   We didn't drink it there.   We drank it while we were driving, and then now and then we stopped and divided it.'   You see that is my problem, and I confront you with the diversions and then you are unhappy.  It is as if you do not know where I get this from.   Would you please tell me then?   When, once again, during the Criminal Procedures, when you were given the opportunity in relation to this statement that you made under pressure, to correct this and you spontaneously say:  `No, no, no, no - we did not just have a bottle of First Watch Whisky at the flat, we had a bottle of Brandy as well, and that's apart from the bottle of Brandy at Martin's house.'   Can you comment on this?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : My comment was such that we wanted to mitigate the circumstances if there was a bottle of Brandy.

MR DREYER: : But do you agree then when you were given the opportunity to correct this statement, you added that there was a bottle of Brandy at that point.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : I agree.

MR DREYER: : And Martin as well.   He testified to the same during the Criminal Procedures.   Is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : I cannot answer to that.

MR DREYER: : But could I just ask you why were you unhappy when I asked you about this, and you said:  `Ask Mr Martin because I don't agree.'

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : I don't agree to what he said that he received alcohol there.   I did not get any alcohol there.   I only had Whisky.   I stick with that statement, and that is why I mentioned it during Criminal Procedures.

MR DREYER: : Let's continue Mr Kloppers.   You said you had a long military career before you joined the AWB?   Ten years in the Commandos?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That is correct.

MR DREYER: : And you saw yourself as a committed military person?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.

MR DREYER: : And at that stage, according to you this morning, you did not use alcohol at that time?   During your involvement at the S A Defence Force, you were involved in a military instruction to do something and it was planned well, and there was specific instructions, and it is as you put it yesterday, it was done with military precision.   Is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.

MR DREYER: : That is how a military or a force operates.   Now you want to tell us that a paramilitary organisation does not operate with military precision?   Well we will put it in the positive then.   Would you then say a paramilitary organisation operates with military precision?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.

MR DREYER: : Let's look at your actions that evening, and I will put it to you on the background that you say that it was an instruction from ... it was an official order from the Generals and Staff of the AWB;  it would then be a paramilitary operation.   Is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : That's correct.

MR DREYER: : Then lets look at the military precision that this was done.   Firstly, alcohol is consumed.   Is this in line with military precision?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : No.

MR DREYER: : Is this in line with military precision that between yourself and Mr Martin there was discussion.   Would we penetrate homes or would it be a road-block?   Is this in line with well planned operations?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: : Mr Martin at that stage did not know precisely that I would tell all the members that we would put up a road-block, and if we would find any ANC, SACP Alliance persons, we would leave corpses behind.