Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

REV XUNDU: And your specific duty was to make it impossible for them to do that march in order for them to demonstrate their unhappiness with the system as it
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...(intervention)

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: No, not a specific duty, it's a question of law and order.  If your government will tell you that is our attitude then you do your duty as I've explained, but I also did explain that when a request was made to me to refuse the march outright I refused, and I said no I will adhere to the conditions and the order of the magistrate.

REV XUNDU: The duties that you talk about in our context of South Africa included tough action by police ...(intervention)

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: No I am not concerned about the context of South Africa ...(intervention)

REV XUNDU: Wag, wag, wag let me finish please, if we must go together, I must finish my sentence, don't preempt what I want to say ...(intervention)

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Well I thought you were finished with your question Sir.

REV XUNDU: I am not finished.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Okay.

REV XUNDU: Now I am saying that you are saying that your duties were to maintain law and order.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: That is correct.

REV XUNDU: And are you saying that within the exercise of those duties there is no details of conscience in carrying them out, you just carry those out like a robot?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: No not like a robot.  You know a robot is controlled by a human being or by a computer, so I don't act like a robot, but if that is the law then I just enforce it.

REV XUNDU: In the history of repression such as we read from the Nazi activities we heard a number of people saying I was obeying orders, and in obedience of orders
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people died, I am asking whether in your relationship with your God you feel that the person who gave orders was taking away that which belonged to you alone as you carried out your duties to repress and to stop people from making lawful demonstrations?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: You know I am not going to be drawn in Mr Chairperson into any political arguments here.  With due respect Sir I think your question is really being directed for me to give a political answer which I am not going to do.  I was a professional policeman and party politics I have always thought was really below my dignity.  So it's not a question of conscience.  If that is the law of the land then I enforce it.  And if you use the word repression I don't repress people, or oppress people, maybe that's the politicians that do that, but I enforce the law.

REV XUNDU: Mr Chairperson I am asking this question because we are dealing with a situation here in which we say that we must make sure that there is no repetition of such atrocities, but we want to give policemen now and in the future the benefit of knowing that they can say no, because of conscience decisions.  Policemen must realise that they are not necessarily subject to the ruling party, but they are subject to one who gives authority to that, and therefore I am asking this question in that light, not in any way to denigrate my learned friend, but he may feel free not to answer the question, but I still want the question to be on record.  I thank you.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I think Mr Chairperson I would like to reply to that, that as I say it's not policemen voting a political party in power it's all the people, so it's actually all the people giving the right or the authority to the politicians
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to make these laws.  And then it comes down to the policemen and he only enforces that law.  That is my answer to that.

REV XUNDU: One last submission Mr Chairman, in South Africa only the minority gave the authority to government to rule, the majority did not give that permission.  And so I am saying that question - I am trying to help my friend to realise the picture that was emerging, that it was not a legitimate government because it was elected by a few people only, and if there were people with self-interest as policemen, as army persons, then we must be clear about that, there was self-interest more than it was a loyalty to being a policeman.  That is what I am trying to clear, so that I help others who are in the police force to make sure that they don't put self-interest before the service of the total people of South Africa.  Thank you.

MR POTGIETER: Have you any further comments?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I have no further comment to make Sir.

MR POTGIETER: Have you been aware of arguments that related to the legitimacy of the Ciskean government, the kind of issue that Reverend Xundu has raised now?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Well I think Sir that is something that has been going on for many years, the independent countries in South Africa, so surely I must credit me with some intelligence to have been aware of these political arguments.

MR POTGIETER: Alright.  I will proceed to the rest of the panel and hear whether they have got any questions.  I will go to Pumpla Gobodo-Madikizela first.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Chairperson.  General would you tell us when were you head of the division of police in Soweto?
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JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Mr Chairperson I don't want to make it difficult for the person asking the question, I just hope it has bearing on my appearance here as to what happened in September 1992, but I am not afraid to answer that, I was head of the CID in Soweto from the beginning of 1982 to towards three-quarters of 1985 and then I was the Divisional Commissioner of the Police in Soweto for 1988 and 1989 and I retired there, I think my best years in the police in Soweto.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And have you ever gone to Soweto yourself?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: But I was working there for nearly six years.  I was in Soweto every day of my life there.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I am asking because I want to know a bit more about what exactly your role was in Soweto.

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: I have told you I was the head of CID, of the detectives for nearly four years and then for two years I was overall in charge.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And your responsibilities included, could you tell us?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Everything a policeman is supposed to do which was embodied in Section 5 of the then Police Act, that is investigation, law and order, I think it's five items they had in the old Act.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: When you talk about law and order, and enforcement of law and order, what are the specifics of that law and order, enforcement of law and order?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Well it's investigation of crime.  See that the people, you try and make the people feel safe especially in a place like Soweto.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: How many Black people did you see
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killed by your men in Soweto during your time there?

JOHANNES JACOBUS VIKTOR: Well it all depends you know, when you say Mr Chairperson I don't want to get into legal arguments, I am not a legal man I am a policeman, if you say killed you know it looks like you've murdered the person.  When a policeman uses his firearm, in those days and I think it's still the same, then there is a full investigation about that shooting, everything is then submitted to a magistrate and then you can have a formal or informal investigation.  Informal means that affidavits are being submitted.  Formal then the person or the witnesses must all give evidence.  I must say especially  ...(tape ends)

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And as far as political activity was concerned?