Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-04

ADV PRIOR: Had they come from the direction of the stadium of Ellis Park?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Not from the direction of Ellis Park.  This according to my observation at the time, there were people who were minding security around the area.

ADV PRIOR: Well I want to try and assist you.  I want to show you photograph 1 of an original bundle of photographs which gives an aerial view of Upper Meyer Street where the bomb exploded.  It's marked by Point A.  Photograph 2 is a closer closeup of the street, the position where the bomb exploded.  Mr Chairman, that photograph is represented at page 53 of the bundle before the Committee.

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Yes I do recognise the area.

ADV PRIOR: Are you able to tell the Committee from where was your position, your observation post as it were before the bomb was detonated.  Where were you standing or where were you positioned in relation to Point A on photograph 1?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: On the South of Point A.

ADV PRIOR: Are you able to maybe make a mark with a pen?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: I've done that.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you.  Could we possibly just familiarise ourselves, all the representatives and the Committee?

CHAIRPERSON: Where did he say the point you've asked him to indicate, what was that?

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman the point where he was standing keeping observation prior to the detonation of the bomb.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] it appears to be - he indicates it is at the point of intersection of Upper Meyer and Byte would it be?

ADV PRIOR: Mr Chairman certainly from my observation it seems to be the position.  Maybe if I can ask him a question.
	Mr Dumakude, you were standing further away from the stadium.  In other words you were - you weren't closer to the stadium in relation to the bus as it was parked there?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Between myself it was a bus, that means I was in the position to observe the exit or the entrance of the stadium which was, if I can still recall, it was gate 4.

ADV PRIOR: So you could see more or less in the direction of gate 4 of the stadium?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, I'm indebted to you.  So I think that's clear Mr Chairman, the bus was between him and the stadium and it would put him in the position of Byte Road or Byte Street as he has indicated.
	Now I hear your evidence that it wasn't your intention and similarly Mr Matshididi and Shoke also echoed that, that it was certainly not your unit's intention to take human life, to kill anyone there and I also hear you when you say that you wanted to ensure that no human life was lost, that you had the remote control device and you would have activated that should you have suspected or seen, sorry let me rather use that word - seen that the crowd was now leaving the stadium, you would  have then detonated the explosive device.  Now having said that Mr Dumakude, you say these two persons who later died had observed you, is that correct?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: I say as we are seated here or judging back, ten years back, their approach was that my action attracted their attention in the sense that they approached me.  When I was preparing myself to react to the situation, they turned back, one first to where the car was parked and because of the wiring which was going to cause more attraction and many people were going to be injured if I was to save my skin and move away from my direct observation of the vehicle.

ADV PRIOR: I want to understand, are you saying that what - did these two people actually stop at the vehicle that was loaded with the bomb?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: At first they moved toward my direction.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's go a little - you say they did not come, you said earlier, they didn't come from the direction of Ellis Park, is that so?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Chairperson, after I have placed the car with the explosive I moved as I've indicated on the sketch towards the South and the action that was taken by the two people that I assume they were the victims, they came towards the direction and ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Where did they come from, from what direction?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Maybe to try and explain, Chairperson, there was a bus parked on the right hand side as I was facing the stadium.  I had a clear view of any approach from the stadium.  They didn't come from that direction.  That's why now I assume that they were around the area providing security.

CHAIRPERSON: You were looking up a road, there were buildings on either side, there was a bus in it.  Did they come down that road or where did you see them coming from?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: I'll assume that they came from the direction of the bus for the mere action that they came towards me as I moved away and they went back to where I placed the car.

ADV PRIOR: So they walked towards you where you were standing, passing the bus that we know was situated on the right hand side as you were positioned, they then - did they walk past the car that had been parked, that is the car with the bomb, then they went back to the car.  Is that what you're describing?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: Sure as I've said, their action was not of people who were passing but people who were approaching me.

ADV PRIOR: I'm trying to understand that.  You saw two men approaching from the bottom of the road, coming past the bus towards your position on the South of Upper Meyer Street, is that correct?  They were coming towards you, walking or were they running or what?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: I think if maybe you can bring picture around again to have one and the same perspective of the picture?

ADV PRIOR: I need to know from your perspective - were they walking - these people coming towards you, were they walking, were they running, were they walking on their hands?  What were they doing?  Are you able to say whether they were walking normally, were they walking fast, were they running towards you or towards your position, can you say?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: People who are providing security they will employ whatever means.  The means that they employed was sufficient for me to say they were not walking past, they were reacting according to the suspicions that I raised.

ADV PRIOR: As I understand your evidence, you were satisfied that the street was deserted, there was no one around and it suited your purposes because if would have avoided loss of life in that street, is that correct?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: You then parked the motor vehicle that was loaded with the bomb and that was close to where the bus was parked, it was like just opposite the street from where the back end of the bus was or the front end of the bus, is that correct?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: I presume you got out of the car, closed the doors and then walked to the South of Upper Meyer Street to the position ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: No, first of all he had to - according to the evidence we've heard - he would have to arm the bomb.  You will recollect we heard evidence that it was disconnected while they travelled there.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I beg your pardon.
     You then armed the bomb is that correct?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: Was the bomb in the boot of the vehicle?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: The bomb was in the boot but the wiring was not in the boot.

ADV PRIOR: So the arming of the bomb would have been done whilst you were in the vehicle?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: That is correct.

ADV PRIOR: And while you were arming the bomb did you notice anybody approaching your vehicle?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: The wiring was in that position that I was going to observe or be in the position to identify anything that was coming from that direction of the stadium.

ADV PRIOR: So whilst arming the bomb you were looking towards the stadium.  Did you see anyone approaching at that stage?

LESTER DUMAKUDE: There was nobody approaching at that stage.