Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-25

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Which really means loose or more fabric or it has an elasticised waist, which pulls the fabric in.  It is not a slim cut dress, it is a style, and all three have the same.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Hugo, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

MR HUGO: No questions, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel?

MR NEL: Rather not, thank you Mr Chair.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe?

MR VAN DER MERWE: No Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Briefly, thank you Mr Chairman.   Ms Jordaan, you mentioned that you measured Lynn, are you referring to Lynn Kubheka?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Sorry, I am not sure, there were two ladies, and I thought this would be interesting just to see them.

MS THABETHE: Yes, it is Lynn Kubheka.

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Was it you?

MS THABETHE: Yes, it was Lynn Masetla.

MR WILLS: What were her measurements?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Lynn's were, the bust was 95, the waist was 77 and the hips, 113.

MR WILLS: And so this would also fit into that category of ...

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Disproportion?

MR WILLS: Disproportion?  In terms of Western women standards?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I think Western women are much more proportionate in general.  We are talking generalities, and no two people are exactly the same, but there is a standard sort of proportion to bust, to hips, to waist, that is much more marked in African women.   They have much broader lower half, I mean their hips tend to be much wider and their breast, that measurement is very often bigger, and the waists are very small.

MR WILLS: Yes.

MS FICK-JORDAAN: We tend to be more straight.

MR WILLS: Yes.  You mentioned another person, did you measure another person?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Yes, Thabisa here.

MS THABETHE: Thabile.

MR WILLS: For the record, can we have her measurement, it might be interesting?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Do you mind?  Thabile was, the bust was 91, the waist was 74, and the hip was 103.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Sorry, there is one question.  Just on the waist measurement, the 102 cm elasticised.  Do I assume that this measurement was the completely stretched measurement?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Yes, those are the stretched measurement.  I mean obviously with the, but even, I was quite amazed actually with the exhumed dress, that in fact there was still a little bit of elasticity left, which is unusual.  I mean one would have thought that it would all be gone by now.
	There was a tiny little bit, so I stretched that and there was, yes, very little play.  So that is the stretched width.  On all the dresses, were the full measurement.

MR WILLS: So if you hadn't stretched it, that measurement would have been less?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Oh yes, definitely.

MR WILLS: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr SAMUEL, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

MR SAMUEL: No questions, Chair.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, do you have any re-examination?

MS THABETHE: No re-examination, Mr Chair, except to say if anyone wants to call their own dressmaker or designer, they are free to do so.  If this evidence is in contest.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   Mr Lax, do you have any questions?

MR LAX: Just one Chairperson.   If one were to assume that somebody with the figures, the measurements given here, was to try and wear this dress, somebody whose proportions were exactly as you have measured them here, does it - what is your opinion of how they would feel or fit into those clothes?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I think, as I said, I think the three, the measurements on all three dresses would mean that whoever was one size, that if one dress fitted them, all three would fit them.

MR LAX: Yes, you see my point is, if you took somebody with a waist of 104 cm, to me it is logical they would be totally and utterly uncomfortable in this garment, that would defeat the whole purpose of the styling of the garment?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Absolutely.  That is why I said that there is no way that the waist would have been in actual fact that measurement.  It is also, the styling tells you.

MR LAX: The point I am trying to make is, can we safely assume that the person who wore these garments, their measurements were slightly smaller, at least, if for example in the waist, it would have been less than 102 cm?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I think you can say that.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman, do you have any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Just one question.  Ms Jordaan, I noted that you said that you are not an expert on fabrics, but could you just assist us here.  It is a synthetic material that the exhumed dress is made of, is that correct?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Would you say it is a strong synthetic material?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I think it is, because it survived obviously.  Most definitely if it was a natural fibre, it would have disintegrated, and it looks like it's got quite a high nylon content.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, that is actually what I was trying to get at.  Considering that it had probably been exposed to the elements for about two months, do you think that type of fabric would have withstood it in the way this dress seems to have done?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Yes, I think nylon most definitely,  it is a very hardy fabric, unless it was burnt.  I think that is about the only thing, it melts, but normal elements, exposure to elements and water would not affect it.  It would only be heat.  If heat was applied.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you very much.  Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: These three dresses, Ms Fick-Jordaan, are they all off the peg dresses as it were, or are they custom designed like those that you make?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: No, it looked like they were all, the labels aren't so clear and that, but they look like they were all off the peg dresses.  The finishes most certainly showed ...

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Are there any questions arising out of questions that have been put by Members of the Panel?

MR VISSER: I was hoping that I wasn't going to talk Chairperson, but I have to.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MR VISSER: Ms Lynn Masetla, is she in the audience?  The person that you measured?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Yes, she is.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: I wonder whether she just couldn't stand?  Oh, I see.  How would you describe the build of Ms Masetla?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I think she must stand up, sorry, I just want to look at her, because I haven't.
	Well, I would look at her, and I would say that she's got large breasts for a person, she is quite short, she also has wide hips and she is hiding her very much smaller waist, which I think she would be quite happy to lift her top and show.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I don't think you need to go that far.

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Not completely but just to there.

MR VISSER: Would you describe her as an average built person?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I beg your pardon?

MR VISSER: Would you describe her as an average built person?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: It depends what are we talking about?  As I said to you there are averages that apply to Western builds, there are average, it is a cultural thing also where people are built differently.  I think for African women, very often that is the case, very small waist is very normal, wide hips and breasts.

MR VISSER: Would you describe her as an average African woman?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: I would say she is an average African woman.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  If on the questions that Commissioner Lax asked you,  if one assumes and one has to, that the person who wore the dress, would be smaller than that dress, I accept that, what would you say would the normal tolerance be of a person wearing a dress like that?

MS FICK-JORDAAN: Well, the tolerance could be anything, because of the style.