Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-10

COMMISSIONER: Magerman Street in Brand Park, Kroonstad, thank you.  And is it true that you were born on the 14th of February 1968.

WITNESS:   Yes, it is correct.

COMMISSIONER: What is your relation to Constance Bush?

WITNESS:   She is my sister-in-law.

COMMISSIONER: What is your relationship to Philip Petrus?

WITNESS:   He is my brother-in-law.

COMMISSIONER: Do they also live in Kroonstad?

WITNESS:   Constance lives in Kroonstad and Philip in Johannesburg.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much.  When was - do you have the date of the birth of Andrew Isaac, your late husband?

WITNESS:   It's 2 September 1964 when he was born.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you.  Did your husband belong to any political organisation?

WITNESS:   Yes.

COMMISSIONER: Can you name it?

WITNESS:   ANC.

COMMISSIONER: And do you yourself belong to any political organisation?

WITNESS:   Yes.

COMMISSIONER: What is that organisation?

WITNESS:   ANC.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you.  Before your husband died what was happening in your community?  (Pause)  Take your time, Mama, take your time.  I know it's painful.  You are still very young to have lost your husband, very young indeed.  Women have suffered a lot in South Africa.  Some have lost their sons, some have lost their husbands.  (Pause)  Take your time.  It's very painful indeed.  So you can see, you people who are here, why we say that when we are here we must behave very well, because people are traumatised.  If we don't respect them when they have come to tell their stories it traumatises them more.  They need our support in whatever is happening.  Do you think that you can help - Constance Bush, you can help, because you also live in the same area.  What was happening there during this time before this young man was killed?

WITNESS:   Before my brother died he was with my brother's son, Roland Petrus.  He had killed the gang leader of the Three Million Gang of Kroonstad.  He was with him on that specific day.

COMMISSIONER: Just be slow, because we have to note down all what you've said.  You say before your brother-in-law died he was with who?

WITNESS:   He was with Roland Petrus, my brother's son.  He had shot Dewitty, the gang leader of the Three Million Gang of Kroonstad.  They killed him.

COMMISSIONER: Okay.

WITNESS:   Yes, that's correct, it was Andrew.

COMMISSIONER: He had killed a member of the gang Million - a member of the Three Million Gang in Kroonstad.

WITNESS:   It was Roland Petrus who had shot the gang leader of the Three Million Gang.

COMMISSIONER: When Roland killed this member of the Three Million Gang was Andrew also with him?

WITNESS:   Yes, he was with him.

COMMISSIONER: What was the reason for the killing?

WITNESS:   The reason for the murder of Dewitty?  Is that the murder, or is it the reason for Andrew Petrus' murder that you are asking? For killing the Three Million Gang person.  Why did Roland kill this member of the Three Million Gang?   ---  He had received a command from the community, because Dewitty had killed many of the children of the parents of Mokeng.  He, together with his friends, did this.

COMMISSIONER: Why did they specially ask Roland to do this job?

WITNESS:   I honestly don't know why.

COMMISSIONER: Was Roland arrested after the killing of Dewitty?

WITNESS:   He was arrested within a week's time.

COMMISSIONER: And Andrew who was with him when he was killing him?

WITNESS:   Yes, Andrew was with him, and Andrew was also locked up, and he was out on R1 000,00 bail.

COMMISSIONER: Both of them?

WITNESS:   Yes, both of them were out.  There were three of them, Andrew, Roland, and my sister's son, and they were out ... (Interpreter:  I couldn't get the name?)  ... and Senator Bloem as well.

COMMISSIONER: (Inaudible) ... sister's son?

WITNESS:   Mhlahoti, Cassius Mhlahoti.

COMMISSIONER: You say three - was he also present when this murder took place, when Roland killed Dewitty?

WITNESS:   Yes, he shot him from a distance, and Roland went to Dewitty and shot him.

COMMISSIONER: Did Andrew Petrus participate in the shooting?

WITNESS:  No, he was just going with them.

COMMISSIONER: And how much was the bail?

WITNESS:   R3 000,00 each.

COMMISSIONER: R3 000,00 each.  Okay, whilst they were out - did this murder of Petrus happen when he was still out on bail?

WITNESS:   Yes, it took place while they were out on bail.

COMMISSIONER: Let's come now back to the story so that I can get the facts clear.  In the statement here there's a mention of Dennis Bloem, mentioned by Allie Bertha Petrus.  Who was this Dennis Bloem?

WITNESS:   It was Senator Bloem.  He's an ANC member.

COMMISSIONER: (Inaudible) ... of Andrew?

WITNESS:   They were two cousins.  They were two cousins.

COMMISSIONER: Was he present when Roland murdered Dewitty?

WITNESS:  No, he wasn't present.

COMMISSIONER: I want just to rectify this statement.  Allie says that, "My husband, Andrew Petrus, was closely associated with Dennis Bloem, a prominent activist who is now the senator."  He is the senator where?

WITNESS:   Yes, he is a senator.

COMMISSIONER: (Inaudible)

WITNESS:   Yes.

COMMISSIONER: I want Allie now to reply to this.  Why do you think that your husband was killed?

WITNESS:   Because he was involved in the death of George Ramasimung.

COMMISSIONER: I want to get the statement again.  When I asked if Andrew participated in the shooting of Dewitty we were told that Roland and Cassius were the ones who participated.  Cassius shot at a long distance, and the other one came near and shot the one called Dewitty, and we were told that Andrew was just present.  Now, this is why I am asking this question.  Do you think that he was murdered because he was present when Dewitty was shot?

WITNESS:   Yes.

COMMISSIONER: Okay.  Now, can you now tell us the story now?  We come to the story now.  I was just getting the background of this whole thing.  Starting from the 28th May 1992 when your husband's body was found.  Can you tell that story?

WITNESS:   On 28 May 1992, between half past six and 7 o'clock, my brother came home and told me that my husband had been killed in a shooting, and I walked to the scene of the shooting where my husband was lying.

COMMISSIONER: (Inaudible) ... broke this news to you?  What is your ... (inaudible)

WITNESS:   Kenneth Vister.

COMMISSIONER: (Inaudible)

WITNESS:   Yes.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you.  Can you proceed?

WITNESS:   When we came to the scene my brother had been in an argument with Captain Solomons.  My brother had said to him, "You know of everything that had happened here.  You know why this man had been killed."  And then I started becoming hysterical.  My sister-in-law, Minna Mattreus, took me to my mother-in-law's house.

COMMISSIONER: Take time.  You say that your sister-in-law - what is the name of your sister-in-law?

WITNESS:   Minna Mattreus.  She took me to my mother-in-law's house, and there I spent the night.

COMMISSIONER: (Inaudible) ... mother-in-law?

WITNESS:   Annie Petrus.

COMMISSIONER: (Inaudible) ... the night there.

WITNESS:   Yes, that is correct.  The next morning Philip Petrus and Dennis Bloem went and made the case with the police regarding this matter at Kroonstad Police Station.

COMMISSIONER: Let me lead you a little bit now.  Is it true that your husband's body was found at the corner of Ronald and Cannon Street?

WITNESS:   Yes, it is correct.

COMMISSIONER: When you found your husband's body was there any blood around him?

WITNESS:   There was no blood around him.

COMMISSIONER: (Inaudible) ... was the reason for that?

WITNESS:   They had shot him somewhere and they had just gone and thrown his body down there.

COMMISSIONER: When he was put there at Dennis Bloem - what do you call - in this Ronald and Cannon Street he was already dead?

WITNESS:   Yes.