Human Rights Violation Hearings — Witbank — 1977-06-05

MR LEWIN: Mr Rumo, sorry to interrupt.  We are wanting to get on to the part in your statement where you talked about the divisions and what happened as a result of that.  Do you think you could get onto that now please?

UNKNOWN: As to that division, when I left the police station, the Comrades who came from Paula, whom I worked with in the ANC branch, there was that division that they alleged that I was working with the police in Black Pine.  I asked them what made them say that and they said that they had no trust in me anymore because I was there in custody and I might have had friendships with the police by virtue of being there.  A statement given that there were ANC members who were misbehaving and that was broadcast on the national television and then there were those allegations that they did not trust me anymore as their Comrade.  They decided that this should be publicized so that it's known that people from Ogies are not genuine ANC members.  They wanted everybody to know what transpired in Ogies.
 I thought that was minor but at one stage a Comrades went to Witbank from Ogies and when they got home they told me that they had come to discuss the matters of Ogies with me.  People were complaining in Ogies that the ANC Comrades were not receptive to them.  I asked them to come inside the house.  I knew that people were not in favour of Comrade Jackson because once he made mention of a certain statement on the national television.  While we were still inside, four Comrades from the offices came inside.  When they came inside they were very rude and asked me why did I allow Jackson to come, especially after he had uttered those words on the national television.  I tried to explain to them what prompted him to say the things he said.  They then went to my late father and instructed him to chase Jackson from Ogies or else they would set our house alight.   My father came and insulted me and threatened ... (interrupted)

MR LEWIN: Sorry, could you explain who this Comrade Jackson is please?

UNKNOWN: Comrade Jackson Mtembo is an ANC member and he is now Minister of Transport here in Mpumulanga region.

MR LEWIN: At the time what role did he have, that brought him to you?  What was he doing in Ogies?

UNKNOWN: At the time he was an ANC National Officer.  He came to me in Ogies so that we could discuss and address the ANC Comrades' problems in Ogies as though there were people who approached him about the Comrades in Ogies.

MR LEWIN: Could you explain then to us, just briefly, to round up, what actually happened about this now?  How was it resolved or was it not resolved?  This dispute.

UNKNOWN: This problem was not resolved, this is why I came to this Commission because I made an effort to solve the problem.  Comrade Jackson was attacked, assaulted and injured.  I took him to Witbank and my going back to Ogies created a problem to the community of Ogies.  Even to-day, I'm  not accepted in Ogies community.  I'm not accepted and I'm regarded as a traitor.

MR LEWIN: Were you yourself attacked at all?

UNKNOWN: They did try to attack me there but fortunately some people alerted me and I managed to escape.

MR LEWIN: What is your position now, to-day?  Do you still have an official position?

UNKNOWN: I don't have any official position and that has affected me mentally as well because I'm not as effective as I used to be.

MR LEWIN: This business about them claiming that you're a police informer, did you categorically deny that?

UNKNOWN: I repudiate all of that.  The were people were doing that but not myself.  I have two names that I would like to disclose.  I wonder if you'd allow me to?

MR LEWIN: In what connection, Mr Rumo?

UNKNOWN: Those are the people that alleged that I am working with the police and they were the very ones who wanted information about the ANC in Ogies.

MR LEWIN: I think what we would need there is if you could just speak to our statement takers afterwards and give us those names rather than in public because the names are not in your original statement so we haven't been able to inform those people.  We need to do that as a Commission, so if you could please give us those names afterwards.

UNKNOWN: Thanks.

MR LEWIN: Thank you, Mr Chair.

DR RANDERA: Thank you, Mr Lewin.  Miss Mkhize?

MR MALAN: Mr Rumo, I just want to tell you that I'm rather confused because your statement is already confusing and I understand that the whole country was confused and it seems to me, Ogies even more than some other areas, especially through your eyes at the time and the situation that you found yourself in.  Unfortunately, you addressed a number of other issues which you didn't deal with in the statement and a number of issues you dealt with in the statement, you didn't deal with now so you will understand if we don't exactly follow the trend of your thoughts.  May I just make sure you are saying that the main purpose why you're coming to us now is that you are being perceived in your community still as some kind of informer or traitor and you want that record to be set straight?  Is that the main purpose of you coming to us?

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

MR MALAN: Then just a few issues in terms of detail in the written statement.  You say that you were robbed of your car.  How was that done?  Was it a criminal robbery or was it an impounding by the police or they accuse you of carrying arms or drugs or what?  How did you lose the car?

UNKNOWN: As you've said, there are things that I did not submit in my statement.  The car was taken in the afternoon and I was also assaulted.  I have wounds on my body.  That was done on the road from Witbank to ......  They took the car and they left me in the road towards Pretoria and suddenly I lost consciousness and when I regained my  consciousness, I was in hospital and I didn't know how I got there.  I was told to go to the police station after that.  I went to the police station and I encountered problems.  When they were assaulting me that night, one of the police said they should have noticed some of the things and ...(interrupted)

MR MALAN: I'm sorry, may I interrupt you.  Let's not go into the other side.  Please just tell us about the car.  Can I ask you direct questions on that?  Were you in possession of a Registration Certificate and ownership papers of the car at the time?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I had.

MR MALAN: Can you remember the Registration Number of the car at the time?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I do.

MR MALAN: Can you tell us now?

UNKNOWN: CBY292.

MR MALAN: Do you still have the Registration Certificate of the car?

UNKNOWN: I still have the car but it is not going anymore.  It's no longer registered.  It's at home.

MR MALAN: So, you still have the car?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR MALAN: So you haven't lost the car.

UNKNOWN: No, I haven't lost the car.

MR MALAN: All right, then it's a little clearer to me.  That's not an issue anymore?  You have the car.

UNKNOWN: I have the car back but the car is not operating.

MR MALAN: We hear you.  Did it not operate at all after you received it back?  Did it drive for a while?  When did it stop working?

UNKNOWN: After I got it from the police station, it was no longer working.

MR MALAN: How did you get it to your home?

UNKNOWN: They took some of the parts, vehicle parts and I had to get a starter for me to be able to drive it home.

MR MALAN: May I refer to another part of your written statement?  You come out with a plea and you say, my please is to apologize to those whom I did wrong.  What do you intend to say here?  Who do you want to apologize to?  Do you want to do it publicly?  Do you want to use this opportunity or what are you saying with this statement?