Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-02

TAPELO MASEKO: We received the orders from the High Command.  We never took our decisions, so we were just carrying out the orders that we received from the High Command.

ADV BOSMAN: Didn't I understand that you had a sort of general order, but that you had a discretion in regard to the particular targets and the particular operations?

TAPELO MASEKO: The commanders were in charge of the units on the ground where the people were choosing the targets.

ADV BOSMAN: I'm afraid I don't really follow.  I understood your evidence to mean that you gave the order for this operation to the first applicant, is that correct?

TAPELO MASEKO: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: But you did not get an order for the particular operation from higher up, this was in your discretion was it not, the time and the date?

TAPELO MASEKO: The commanders of the unit on the ground were the people who identified the targets.  So because he was the commander of that unit I gave him a go-ahead and then I said to him: "Since you have already identified the target, you can go ahead with the operation."

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.  Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, any questions arising?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, it's what was arising out of what was asked by the Leader of Evidence, Advocate Mpshe.  It's only one question in relation to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I should have asked for re-examination, I'm sorry, but you can do it now.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Maseko, you were asked by the Leader of Evidence, was it the only operation which was carried out in 1994 and you said yes.  What I wanted from that question is, are you saying that no other operation of APLA, or are you saying that no operation which was sanctioned by yourself specifically, you gave order to be carried out at that time?

TAPELO MASEKO: The only operation I was involved in is this one and this is the only operation in which I participated and gave an order.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Any questions arising, Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Maseko, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, with your permission, Mr Chairperson, I have a third affidavit which I intended to submit after it had been signed by the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We were given a copy of a document purporting to be an affidavit but not having been signed by any person.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairperson, that is why I'm addressing the Committee.  I had hoped that Mr Letklapa would sign here in Johannesburg, according to our arrangements.  He made the affidavit whilst we were in Durban the other week.  I met with him in Durban so I typed it and so we arranged that he will sign it here, though he was not going to give oral testimony to that.  Unfortunately, Mr Chairperson, he is in Umtata so I'm in the hands of the Committee, whether it can ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we can receive it, we obviously can't treat it as an affidavit because it isn't an affidavit, but we can take note of the contents.  We note also that it is essentially much the same as what Mr Maseko has said but obviously with less detail relating to this specific incident.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman.  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, with that this document which I've regarded as a statement, be made Exhibit C.  That concludes the evidence of the applicant, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  What is the position regarding the second applicant, Mr Diahomonaheng?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I was phoned when I was in Durban in the office of the TRC regarding that they could not locate him and I asked them to send the notice to my office.  I tried to locate him with the telephone I had from him with regard to his previous application which was in Bloemfontein, and I managed to get a person who promised to relay the message to him though he was not there, he was in Umtata.
	Mr Chairperson, we did everything reasonable to contact him and I think he was contacted although I cannot vouch to that because I had another person who was going to be an applicant during the week, Khotle.  I sent the message through the same person and he's here in the hearing, he managed to get it but yet the person I use as a contact did not know him, he said he's going to locate him, he knew only Diahomonaheng.  
	So Mr Chairperson, I've also tried Umtata.  I phoned Umtata, I left messages where I was given a telephone number but unfortunately I could not get hold of him.  I don't know whether somebody managed to contact him and talk to him about it.  
	But Mr Chairperson, I must indicate that I consulted with him, maybe the affidavit, I'm not sure whether it's there in the index here in the bundle because he made an affidavit.  He was not - he has got an unsigned affidavit when I contacted him.  Though he made the affidavit, Mr Chairperson, I must say that he was reluctant in pursuing his application.  Well I don't know whether that may also be the reason but as of now, I can't say what the position is.

CHAIRPERSON: So the practical course to follow then, Mr Mbandazayo, would then be to just remove his application from the roll, not refuse it or anything like that but just remove it from the roll and then it would be possible then sometime in the future to have it set down if Mr Diahomonaheng expresses an interest in that or communicates.  We would appreciate it that if he does communicate with you sometime in the future, if you would advise him as a matter of urgency then if he wishes to pursue his application, to get in touch with the Amnesty Committee, perhaps in the form of Mr Mpshe who is fully aware of the matter.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I will definitely do that immediately I have contact with him.  If he has an interest I will communicate with Advocate Mpshe immediately.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Are  you leading any further evidence in regard to Mr Bhani's application?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Mr Chairperson, that concludes the evidence on behalf of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, are you in a position to make submissions?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairperson.
	It is my submission that the applicant has complied with the requirements of the Act, which is Section 20(1) and (2).  That at the time he acted he was acting on behalf of APLA, which is a publicly known political organisation and liberation movement which was involved in the political struggle at the time.  Also, that the applicant did not act for personal gain nor out of personal ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's quite clear from the evidence of the applicant and Mr Maseko, that he was acting under a direct order to conduct an operation in furtherance of the objectives of the movement.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairperson.
	And therefore, Mr Chairperson, taking into account, I wanted to address the question of the timing of the operation.  Mr Chairperson, as Mr Maseko put it clearly, unfortunately I had hoped that I would have something to give the Committee, the resolution of the congress, that at the time, though Mr Chairperson, I know that the deadline for the application for amnesty is still within the confines but definitely because ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The deadline extends up to the 10th of May 1994.