Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-09

MR VISSER: One, yes please, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: I am just interested, Mr Botha, are you familiar with first aid and resuscitation of people who had had heart attacks?  Were you somebody who could apply it?  Did you do any courses in first aid?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I have had training as a cub when I was 12 years old at the police college and that was basic training.

MR VISSER: Did you think, from what you saw there of Mrs Khubeka that, according to your insight and knowledge and training that there was a chance that she could be resuscitated?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, when she urinated my immediate inference that I drew that she had a heart attack and there was no pulse and no breath, I accepted that she had died.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel, any questions arising?

MR NEL: Nothing, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe?  Mr Hugo?  Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: Just one question arising from what Mr Lax has asked this witness.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Botha, in your evidence you told this Commission that here was a lady that was bringing in terrorists.  You were aware of colleagues that were being bombed, were blown up, just one question.  Would you, if it was possible to resuscitate this woman, would you have done so Sir?  Would you have given that woman mouth to mouth resuscitation?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: If there was any indication that she had lived up to that stage and that there was some pulse and that there was some breath, yes, we would have done so.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, do you have any questions?

MR WILLS: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, that concludes your evidence.  You may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR VISSER: Mr Chairperson, I see that it's ten to four.  I don't believe that there's much point in starting with a new witness for 10 minutes, Mr Chairman.  Perhaps it might be convenient to take the adjournment till tomorrow and start the witness then.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Will we be able to start - what time tomorrow would be convenient tomorrow to start?  9 o'clock, would that be convenient?

MR VISSER: Speaking for myself I would prefer nine thirty Mr Chairman, but if we could just try to start at nine thirty.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, alright.  We'll then adjourn until nine thirty tomorrow when we'll proceed with the evidence of another applicant.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairperson before you rise, may we just inquire about the photographs which we mentioned earlier?  We've received no report-back except that Ms Thabethe told us that there are photographs available.  We're not certain why we weren't told what's going on.  I'm not criticising anybody but is there  any report-back on photographs, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: No, I haven't received any.  Mr Wills is it possible to get photographs or copies thereof?

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, I've asked the family members to collect some photographs overnight.  As soon as I have them I will report back.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you and then once we get those photos if you could liaise with Ms Thabethe and arrangements will be made to have copies made of them, as I say not at the expense of the family, and the original photo or the photos that they hand over will then be given back to the family and we'll work with ...

MR SAMUEL: Sorry Mr Chairman, just before we adjourn, I just need to make one request.  My client informs me that he feels his life is in danger.  He is presently in custody at C R Swart Square and he feels his life is in danger at C R Swart Square.  If it's possible for this Commission to direct that he be transferred to another police holding cell.  The nearest one suggested is Mayville Police Station.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I don't know.  I wouldn't like to direct that he be transferred to Mayville and that's completely inappropriate or something like that.  I don't know these cells here.

MR LAX: If that is the case ...(indistinct - mike not on)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I wonder if our witness protection people are here?  Perhaps this aspect can be referred to them, Mr Samuel.  They're experts in this regard and all I can say that if there is this threat, once they've gone into this, if there is such a threat, that in so far as I have the authority to do so, give a direction that Mr Mbane be relocated to a safer place, but I wouldn't like to specify it because I don't know what these places are but I'm sure that our witness protection people, I'm told that they are here and I would suggest that if you yourself, Mr Samuel, speak with them in this regard, and if some arrangements be made and if there's any problem, then they can communicate with me.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairperson, may I be allowed just to say something?  Mr Chairman, I really resent the fact that this kind of aspersion is cast in an open meeting where the public is present.  Who does he say intends to kill him?  Is he referring to the other applicants?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know Mr Visser, that's why I didn't ask.  I didn't...

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, with great respect, matters such as this should be handled with greater sensitivity in future.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so if you could speak to the witness protection people.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn until half past nine tomorrow.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS