Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-09-14

MR SMIT: Let us say that the General of the Gauteng area had 100 people under him, and all of them had their Commanders, and if a Commander chose a person to undergo explosive training, this person would be taken apart and he would then report back to the General and say that this and this person received the training in explosives.

MS VAN DER WALT: You now talk about the General of Gauteng, these Generals, are there different Generals that were deployed in the country?

MR SMIT: Yes, in all the old Provinces there were a General.

MS VAN DER WALT: And these Generals, do they then gather and have meetings and report back, or what is the situation?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.  It would be the normal Generals in Staff meetings where Terreblanche would be as well.

MS VAN DER WALT: What is Terreblanche's position with regard to the Generals in Staff?

MR SMIT: He is automatically the leader of the AWB and has got the last say and approval of all tasks that had to be executed.

MS VAN DER WALT: The Generals in Staff, evidence was led that they had Order Group meetings, can you explain the Generals in Staff, would they come together in an Order Group meeting and if so, what is an Order Group meeting?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.  They gather in an Order Group meeting.   These meetings are closed, it would only be the Generals in Staff and Eugene Terreblanche.

MS VAN DER WALT: The Boere Krisis Aksie, do you carry knowledge of such an "Aksie"?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What is it and where does it fit in?

MR SMIT: The Boere Krisis Aksie was another right wing organisation, most of the AWB members were part of this organisation and most of the Boere Krisis Aksie members, were members of the AWB, so it was a coordinated action.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the difference?

MR SMIT: There wasn't really a difference.  Everybody stood for the same goals, although some of the members were not AWB or Boere Krisis Aksie members.

CHAIRPERSON: Why, if everything was the same then?

MR SMIT: I cannot explain that.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who would be considered as the leader of the Boere Krisis Aksie, would that also be Eugene Terreblanche?

MR SMIT: No, I do not know who he was.

MS VAN DER WALT: These inspections that you talked about that were held, you said that was on a regular basis?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What do you mean by that, on a regular basis, can you say?

MR SMIT: Let us say once a month, these people were brought together either for training camps or just for inspections of the equipment.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you receive instructions to in the Commando's and the Commando members, get equipment for a purpose?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: For what purpose?

MR SMIT: That was for warfare.

MS VAN DER WALT: When did you receive these instructions?

MR SMIT: We received the instructions more intensely after June 1993 after the World Trade Centre incident.

MS VAN DER WALT: There was a meeting held in Ventersdorp, the Committee heard about this, it was a meeting that was held at the Trim Park.  Do you carry any knowledge of this?

MR SMIT: Yes, that was the 2nd of April 1993, sorry 1994.

MS VAN DER WALT: Evidence of the applicants conveyed that they were not sure of the date, some said it was in February or March.  Are you sure?

MR SMIT: Yes, I am sure it was the 2nd of April 1994.

MS VAN DER WALT: This meeting were addressed by various leaders?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell the Honourable Committee, was this an open meeting or a closed meeting?

MR SMIT: The first part of the meeting was open, after that it was closed.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you talk about an open meeting, could the media be present?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the television?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was your impression with regards to this meeting that was held there?  Let us just look at the open meeting?

MR SMIT: Well, the impression that was created by all the speeches that were held, was that the war is very close.

MS VAN DER WALT: This meeting, was that opened with prayer and reading?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: By an ordinary member?

MR SMIT: It was done by a Reverend but who was also a member of the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the message that he conveyed to you?

MR SMIT: That was war.

MS VAN DER WALT: Then Eugene Terreblanche ...

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about a Reverend?

MR SMIT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: A minister?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And Eugene Terreblanche also talked?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct, just after Mr Manie Maritz.

MS VAN DER WALT: Eugene Terreblanche, did he at any stage in that meeting say anything about negotiations?

MR SMIT: No, not at all.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was his message?

MR SMIT: We would negotiate across the barrel of a gun.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did he at any meeting before the elections say that he will take part in the elections?

MR SMIT: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was his attitude right through this period?

MR SMIT: That he will not vote, that he will disrupt the election completely.

MS VAN DER WALT: After this meeting, this open meeting, what happened then?

MR SMIT: After the open meeting, all the people were divided into certain groups, where the Ystergarde also formed its own group.
	In this period all media people and cameras were removed from this area.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were you then divided into groups?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was the reason for that?

MR SMIT: The reason for this was that the Generals and the Commanders of each group and sections for communication or medical sections, had to sort them out and to see if the equipment were in order.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you know Chris van der Heever?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: What rank did he have?

MR SMIT: He was a Fighting General in the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was his responsibilities?

MR SMIT: Chris van der Heever at that stage, was responsible for all the provision of medical equipment and he would have been able to get Ratels from a military base close by in Zeerust.

MS VAN DER WALT: If I put it to you, was he in charge of the Special Forces?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did that happen, that he got hold of Ratels?

MR SMIT: No, not at all.  It was withdrawn just before the elections.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you believe him that he would have been able to get hold of them?

MR SMIT: At that stage Chris van der Heever was Commander of the Wits Command.  He had a lot of say in other Defence Force Commands.

CHAIRPERSON: But what made you think that he was telling the truth and not just trying to show off?

MR SMIT: To go back, at various meetings Eugene Terreblanche said the Defence Force is on the side of the right wing and this and this percentage.
	This old Special Forces member had automatic say in the whole process with the right wing and the Defence Force, that they would communicate with each other in order for us to get hold of these equipment.

MR MALAN: Can I just make sure, did you say Chris van der Heever was a Combat General in the AWB?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MR MALAN: At the same time he was a Commander of the Wits Command?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: He was actively involved?

MR SMIT: Yes, actively.

MR MALAN: Are you sure about this?

MR SMIT: Yes, I am definitely sure about this.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you just elaborate on this aspect that the Defence Force and the Police would help the AWB in their struggle?
	You said that Terreblanche at various meetings said this?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were there other people except for Terreblanche, who also confirmed this?

MR SMIT: Not that I can think of at this stage, no.