Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-17

MR BERGER: Chairperson, the witness also said that after she left the hospital, my instructions are that she was suffering from nerves and but that wasn't what - I was going to object to the depth of this cross-examination and I wonder whether it's strictly necessary to go to such depth to prove a point that is not readily apparent to me.  Perhaps if my learned friend can put the point rather than going to these depths it might save the witness some anguish.

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Berger, you've got to understand that Mr Lowies has instructions.  It is unfortunate but these matters ought to be probed to the extent that there might be relevant and issues of credibility.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I do understand that and that's why my hand has been sitting here and I haven't objected because I understand this.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's clarify this aspect first, let's go back to this question whether she cried uncontrollably, you know, after this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you ask the question, Mr Berger?

MR LOWIES: Chair sorry, I have to apologise, I did not hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: We now know that the - what was conveyed to her was not accurately conveyed to her.

MR LOWIES: I'll go through the process again with your permission.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Ma'am, the night of the incident there at the scene, did you cry uncontrollably or sob uncontrollably because of the fear and because of the brutalness of the attack?

MIRIAM MOLETE: No, that is not correct.

MR LOWIES: However, if I do understand you correctly that as a result of the attack you now suffer from nerves?

MIRIAM MOLETE: That is so.

MR LOWIES: Does that have an influence on your recollection as to what happened on that night?

MIRIAM MOLETE: It is not always that the same happens, this only comes out when we have hearings of this matter or if it happens that I look back at my life since 1992 to date.

MR LOWIES: Yes but my question is, the fact that you suffer from your nerves and that you are well as you testified earlier on, does that have an influence on your ability to recall the incidents on that night?   Sorry to have to ask you this.

MIRIAM MOLETE: I do not understand your question.

MR LOWIES: The question is this, you've told us that when you testified about these events that occurred to you, you suffer from the nerves amongst other things.  Okay, what counsel wants to find out, the nerves that you suffer from, does that effect your ability to recall the events?

MIRIAM MOLETE: No, they do not.

MR LOWIES: We've heard your evidence earlier on when cross-examined by Mr Strydom next to me that you said that at the time when the statements were taken you were sick.  Did you refer to your nerves, the nerve situation that you have?

MIRIAM MOLETE: I said since this incident I have been an ill person, I've got a heart situation at the moment.

CHAIRPERSON: What you are being asked is this, you know, when you were asked about the statements that you made to the police, you mentioned amongst other things that when this statement was taken you were sick.  Do you recall that?

MIRIAM MOLETE: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what counsel wants to find out, were you referring to the nerves that you suffer from amongst other things?

MIRIAM MOLETE: Yes, I was referring to the nerves.

MR LOWIES: When Mr Strydom cross-examined you regarding the contents of the written statement, he explained that when the statement was written, I was sick.  In the process arguing that you could not think properly from the gist of your answer at that stage, is that not correct?

MR BERGER: No, that's not what the witness said.

CHAIRPERSON: What did she say?

MR BERGER: She said she was sick, she didn't elaborate on it, as my learned friend has.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies?

MR LOWIES: Chairman, that was used as a reason why she could not properly recall what happened there and could not properly relate to the police what happened there which is just another word of stating what I have - another manner in stating in what I have just stated.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon?

MR LOWIES: Which is just another way, Chairman, of stating what I have put to her, but I can rephrase the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: You see, ma'am, when you specifically mentioned this and I've got a quote here, when the statement was written "I was sick", you did so in reply to questions put by Mr Strydom regarding differences and omissions in your statement to the police.  My question therefore is the following, did your illness, your nerves, have an effect at the time or had it an effect at the time when the statement was taken by the police?

MIRIAM MOLETE: No.

MR LOWIES: So when these statements that Mr Strydom referred you to were taken, you were in the same position as you are today, regarding the recollection of what happened on the night of the incident, correct?

MIRIAM MOLETE: Are you referring to the day I gave in the statements to the police?

MR LOWIES: Ja, the days, ja.

MIRIAM MOLETE: I was not that ill that I could not speak, I was able to walk as is the situation today.

MR LOWIES: And your recollection was the same more or less as it is today, that's what I'm trying to find out.

MIRIAM MOLETE: Well, I wouldn't know on that one, no it wouldn't be the same.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it to you this way, you will tell us whether that's true or not.  As far as you are aware, cast it in your mind back at a time when you gave the statement in to the police, as far as you are aware, was there anything which effected your ability to recall the events that took place on the 17th June?

MIRIAM MOLETE: That is so, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, what is it?

MIRIAM MOLETE: The ability not to fend for myself because my left hand is the one that I use.

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, I was asking her to repeat what she said earlier, I missed that one also.  She said something about her left hand being her right hand but I wanted to get the accurate one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MIRIAM MOLETE: I said my hand, my left hand is the one I use and my child is confined to a wheelchair.  She's growing up, I cannot hold her up like the time I used to and all this in my mind effects my life and that the father who used to fend for her is now dead.

CHAIRPERSON: Now did all of this effect your ability to recall the events?

MIRIAM MOLETE: Like Mr Lowies asked me those were all the things that effected my life that I cannot prosper or fend for myself, those are the things.

MR LAX: I'm still unclear about the way you've answered these questions.  You're talking about things that have effected your life and your future.  What you're being asked is this, these terrible things that have happened to you and this experience that happened to you that has left you with nerves and other ailments, has that effected the way you are able to tell the story, the way you're able to remember what happened on that night in any way?  That's what you're being asked, do you understand?

MIRIAM MOLETE: Yes I do.  No, they are not.

MR LAX: Thank you Mr Lowies.

MR LOWIES: Thank you Mr Lax.
	So ma'am, it did not effect you then when you made the statements to the police and it does not effect you here today to tell the story and remember the events?

MIRIAM MOLETE: That is so.

MR LOWIES: So if you said to Mr Strydom that the reason why you omitted certain items and why there are discrepancies in your statements and your evidence today and you blame that on your illness, that should not be read as such?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, she did not say that, in fact her evidence was to the contrary, she said "I did say those things but the interpreter was speaking Sepedi and I was speaking SeTswana and I don't know it wasn't recorded."  That was her evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: There are some other occasions where reference was made by her to the effect that when she gave the statement she was sick.

MR BERGER: Yes but ...(intervention)