Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-08

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, are you calling the next matter, Mr Veveza and others?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, I'm calling Winile Veveza, Sipho Biko, Mzuamadoda Yengeni.

CHAIRPERSON: For the purpose of the record, I am Judge Pillay.  I am going to ask my colleagues to similarly identify themselves for the purposes of the typist, name and in respect of which applicants.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, the hearing and the application for today is in respect of the incident at Franciscato's house at Alice Street where Mr Franciscato died and a robbery of firearms took place.  The application for today is in respect of that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that Stutterheim, Alice Street?

MR MBANDAZAYO: It's Alice Street, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, in which town?

MR MBANDAZAYO: In Fort Beaufort, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Which offences would the applications be directed at?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, because the, as Mr Chairperson will see in the record that Mr Franciscato died but the applicants were not convicted of the offence because they were linked to the robber, Mr Chairperson, in order to comprehensively deal with the whole matter, the applicants are applying specifically for the robbery of the arms and also the possession of those arms and also with the incident though they were ...[indistinct], Mr Chairperson, because the ...[indistinct] of the death of Mr Franciscato.

ADV DE JAGER: Well what exactly did they rob there?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, what they robbed was firearms, Mr Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: How many firearms?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, according to the information from the applicants four firearms were robbed.

ADV DE JAGER: You see in the application of Mr Veveza, the particulars of the acts
"Killed the victim"
And then he says:
"They were looking for firearms"
But he didn't really ask for amnesty on the offence of robbery or of taking firearms, but at least he's referring to firearms.  So you will have to amend, or ask for an amendment and we'll see whether we could amend, whether the Act would allow us to amend on the particulars that you may be giving us.
	Mr Mapoma, who were the victims?  Were they given notice here in this case?  The next-of-kin of the deceased.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairman, up to this moment I was still trying to communicate with the Evidence Analyst and our Investigators regarding the notice to the victims in respect of this matter.  The last time I contacted the investigator was that they are not able to locate the next-of-kin of the victim.  The victim is deceased and the matter is still being taken up with the investigation now as to ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Well if there was serious efforts and they couldn't find the next-of-kin, and we've got evidence in that regard before us, we can proceed but can we proceed if there was no serious attempt to advise the victims of our hearing today?

MR MAPOMA: Unfortunately Chairperson, at this stage I cannot tell the Committee as to the seriousness or otherwise of the investigation which was made in getting hold of the next-of-kin.

CHAIRPERSON: How long will it take you to investigate it?

MR MAPOMA: Perhaps if I can be given an adjournment of 15 minutes I can find out.  The investigator is Mr ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn for 15 minutes for that purpose.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: It appears to be in order.  Mr Mbandazayo, I think only in respect of Veveza, it is not clearly stated, that includes the robberies in his application.  What do you say about that?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, I agree with you.  You can look, there are two applications from Veveza.

CHAIRPERSON: Which pages?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  The application of Veveza is the first staring from page 1, Mr Chairperson, to page 6 and the second one starts from page 8 to page 13.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems to be in order.  You can proceed.  You say the robbery of the firearms, and are there any matters that has been applied for that falls under the Arms and Ammunition Act?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, let me put it this way.  The problem with this application is always that the applicants are always doing them themselves, they don't have assistance, they don't have the knowledge of this.  Normally they don't put what is required in terms of the law because they are lay persons.   Mr Chairperson, the application is based on their conviction for the robber and the possession of the said firearms which they robbed from Mr Franciscato.

ADV DE JAGER: Now what about the robbery of the money?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, even if the Committee decides, if we proceed with the matter with the robbery of the money, they are not applying for robbery of the money because it is my instruction that they were shocked, they heard it in court that there was money robbed.  They never robbed any money according to them, so they are of the opinion that they can't apply for something they didn't know.  They will be misleading the Committee if they say the robbed it.

CHAIRPERSON: What sentence did they get for the robbery of the money?

ADV DE JAGER: I think they were only charged with the robbery of the firearms and the money of R150,00.  It seems to one ...[intervention]

MR MBANDAZAYO: It was included as a one sentence, Mr Chairman, it was not a ...  So for the purposes of sentences these are regarded as one, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Who do you intend calling first?

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...[inaudible] Mr Chairman, I was told that the Committee ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] check this sentence first.  Okay, proceed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Can the applicant be sworn in?

CHAIRPERSON: Who is the first applicant?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, my first applicant will be Sipho Mabuti Biko, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Biko, which language would you prefer to use?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: (sworn states)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Biko, the affidavit in front of you is also before the Committee.  Do you confirm that the affidavit was made by yourself and that you abide by its contents?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, that's correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, for the purposes of curtailing, I'm subject to the direction of this Honourable Committee.  I normally go to certain paragraphs just for the purposes of clarity, just to clarify certain paragraphs.  If the Committee wishes to start with a certain paragraph  ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You lead the witness and we'll ask him anything we think we need to ask.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.   Mr Biko - Mr Chairperson, I'll start with paragraph 9 of the affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: Which one?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sipho Mabuti Biko's affidavit, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, don't you have the affidavit, Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible].  Shall we give this Exhibit A?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Chairperson, I don't know whether in view of the fact that you are only getting this now, can ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You can carry on.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Mbandazayo, you say you're going to jump up to paragraph 9?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, I was going to start with paragraph 9 if there is nothing you want me to start with.

ADV SANDI: Can I just ask one question before you go to paragraph 9?
	Mr Biko, you say in your affidavit you left school in 1989 and you also joined PASSO in 1989.  PASSO I understand is a student organisation, were you still a student when you joined PASSO?

SIPHO MABUTI BIKO: Yes, that is correct.