Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-23

MR HATTINGH: I'll accept it.   What instructions, what other instructions did you get from what other people?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Instructions I was given by other people was from the self defence unit members that I had trained, because they were the ones who stayed in the townships who knew well what was going on, they then would tell me what was going on in the township, and according to that information, I would act.

MR HATTINGH: In your application at page 25 of the bundle, you say
"I received my orders through dead letter boxes."
What does that mean, and from whom did you receive instructions in this manner?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Except from the firearms that I got from the dead letter boxes, I don't know, it is the instructions concerning the firearms that I would get from dead letter boxes.   That I got from Javu Mkhwanazi.

MR HATTINGH: Did you get any instruction to kill a person in this manner?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: No.

MR HATTINGH: I would wish to put it to you that Mr Elias Zwane, the brother of the deceased, Jwi Zwane, instructed me and he says that as he and his deceased brother were in business in competition with Mr Mndebele, he believes that Mr Mndebele gave the instruction that Jwi Zwane was to be killed?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I dispute that.   I have never spoken to Joe Mndebele.   I would just greet when I see him.   It is Javu who I spoke to concerning certain matters.   It would be dangerous that such information more than two people knew about, we had to be very careful, such information had to be known just between two people.

MR HATTINGH: Did you see Mr Mndebele at his shop when Jwi Zwane was killed, shortly thereafter?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I did say that I went into the shop to see if he was there, and he was not there.

MR HATTINGH: Did you see Mr Mndebele in the area of the shooting shortly after the shooting where Zwane was killed?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I did not see him.

MR HATTINGH: If you were afraid that Zwane was about to kill Mr Mndebele and you realised that he was not in the shop, why was it still necessary to kill Zwane?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I have said that I was given an instruction.

MR HATTINGH: Did you know Mr Zwane before he was killed?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I did, because I did stay in Ermelo for a while.

MR HATTINGH: You received your instruction to kill Mr Zwane some time during 1990, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct, Chair.   As I have said, during those times, those were terrible times in Ermelo in 1990, these people were escorted by the police all the time, it was difficult to find them on their own.   It was by luck that I found him standing in front of Joe's shop.

MR HATTINGH: But that was also the time when you injured, shot at and injured three other people?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I was shooting (indistinct), I was not shooting those people.

MR HATTINGH: If you could just explain, you received your instruction to kill Jwi Zwane in 1990, you only killed him on the 28th of July 1991, could you explain this long period that ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, Mr Hattingh, if I may interpose there, in the interests of time, hasn't this witness told us that it was not always easy to have access to Mr Zwane, he was being escorted all the time?

MR HATTINGH: Perhaps I can clear up this problem.   Is it correct that for a period of more than seven months, seven, eight months you tried to get hold of Mr Zwane to get him on his own to kill him?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I wanted him, even if I had found him with other Black Cat members, it would have been good, but it was difficult to find him, I did not want to kill him whilst he was escorted by the police in whose company he was in most of the time.

MR HATTINGH: You never got any specific order where it was mentioned that you had to kill Chris Ngwenya, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: He said so on several occasions already.

MR HATTINGH: What made you kill Chris Ngwenya on the 12th of April 1992, approximately nine months after the death of Jwi Zwane?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It was because it was difficult to get hold of him, Chair.

MR HATTINGH: The victim, Thembisile Nkambule, will testify that, different to your testimony that Chris Ngwenya was in the middle of a group of three, that Chris Ngwenya was actually on the side of the group and that Lindiwe Nkosi was walking in the middle, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I dispute that.   I was there on that day, Chris Ngwenya was between the two girls.   If Chris was at the side, those girls would not have been shot by mistake.

MR HATTINGH: She will further testify that after Chris Ngwenya had been shot and killed, the shooting continued and she was in fact, someone ran after her and shot at her after Chris Ngwenya had already been killed?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I don't know anything about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Was she injured?

MR HATTINGH: She was in fact injured, shot in the leg.

CHAIRPERSON: What part of the leg?

MR HATTINGH: My instructions are high up, on her upper leg.

CHAIRPERSON: On her thigh?

MR HATTINGH: On her thigh.

CHAIRPERSON: Front side or back?

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, at this stage I can't really say, I need the instructions.   I believe from the back, but I would rather not take it further at this stage.   And the same goes for Lindiwe Nkosi, that she was also shot at and someone ran after her after Chris Ngwenya was already killed?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I think that the person who ran off is the one who was saved from the situation.   Could the speaker please repeat the answer?   According to my knowledge, the person who was saved was the person who ran away.   The others did not have a chance to run away, especially the girl what was standing up forward than the others.   The one that was close to us, closer to us, is the one who - the one that was closer to us is the one who was saved.

MR HATTINGH: You already testified that none of the two women had, as far as you know, at the time had any connections with any political parties or supporters of any political movement, is that correct?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: The knowledge I had was such that the one was the girlfriend, Chris's girlfriend, and a member of the Womens League in the IFP, I think it's also in the documents here.

MR HATTINGH: I'll have a look at that and come back later if necessary.   It will be the evidence of Thembisile Nkambule that she had no political affiliation or support of any political movement, and in the circumstances there was absolutely no reason for her to be shot by you or your partner?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: As I have already said, it was not my intention, together with the person I was with, to shoot these girls.  These girls got shot because Chris is well trained, it would have been difficult to ask these girls to get away whilst we shoot Chris.   We then decided to shoot everything that was in front of us, because we were scared that our lives would be in jeopardy because of Chris.

MR HATTINGH: Did Chris shoot back?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: We would have never given him that chance, even to take out that weapon if he had it with him.

MR HATTINGH: But having done that, why was it then necessary to continue shooting and shoot at the women as well?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I was scared of Chris, according to the knowledge I had, I could never be sure that he had died.   Maybe they were using herbs.   It is understood that these people were actually using a certain traditional herb called indelezi(?), because even if you tried to shoot at them, you won't be successful sometimes.

MR HATTINGH: Did you see Chris fall after he was shot?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes I did, because I was shooting at him.

MR HATTINGH: While you were shooting at Chris, can you just indicate, give some indication as to in what directions the women were running or what happened to the women while you were shooting at Chris?