Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-05

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if you can mark it with an F.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: On that photo.  Yes I don't know if the other members want to see it.

GEORGE BIZOS: After these people had left, if the Committee remonstrates with me, I remonstrate with my learned friends.  After the people had left, how many people were there still in the building at the time of the explosion?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: At least 16.  It would be the three members of the Soccer Union I saw in front, in reception, the Security Guard as well as the Cape Youth - the CAYCO members, 12 of us.

GEORGE BIZOS: The Security Guard's room, where is that?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Basically behind, it's close to the - where the young kids are.  It's between the kitchen and the Red Unit, at the back thereof.

GEORGE BIZOS: I don't know whether you want that pin-pointed as well Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I think I can recall it from the inspection in loco.

GEORGE BIZOS: Perhaps I should make use of the photo slides, yes.  Could you see on any of the photographs where - have a look at photograph number 5, what does that represent?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The door jam, or the doors which are blown off, that's the entrance to the hall, the two sets of doors next to that would lead to Springbok side, that's the front entrance.  Where these chairs are, that's the point here that I'm referring to.  The door closest to, or to the right-hand side of the hall, of the broken doors, that's the entrance towards the parking lot or one of the entrances.  You would also walk through the kitchen, there's the very first door, the very first opening on the right-hand side, that's the entrance to the kitchen.  Now you would go via there, or via the Red Unit to the room of the Security Guard.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Or the caretakers ...(indistinct)

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  You say that there were at least, approximately, well you say precisely 16 people at the time the explosion went off.  Could you find the Board Room on the photographs please?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Let me just check if I can find it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Have a look at photograph 8.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, it is the hall, the inside of the hall.

GEORGE BIZOS: The inside of the hall.  If you could find the Board Room.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: 29, definitely.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Now was there a door separating the Board Room from the passage at that time?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: There was no door in terms of a fixed structure which separated the Board Room from the passage at the time.  If I could just add, when we went to the inspection in loco, it was also said, I think to the Committee, that just after the bomb they had erected a structure to prevent entry into that period.

CHAIRPERSON: A partition.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Partition, that's right.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now at the inspection in loco, we saw the Board Room represented in photograph number 29.  Glass windows, or glass panes, right across that room, were those there at that time?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: They were there at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Those panes, as far as I can recall, were very high up, at the ceiling.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: When you and your colleagues were in the Board Room, were the lights on?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The lights were on, definitely.

CHAIRPERSON: At that time, those glass panes, were they clear glass, or were they painted over?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It was clear glass, Your Worship.

GEORGE BIZOS: Anyone looking at the building from any place near where at the inspection in loco Mr van Zyl and others showed where - I think Mr van Zyl, let's confine it to him, showed where they were parked.  Would they have been able to see that the lights of the Board Room were on?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.  From where they were parking, or from the side, the back side of the building, they should be able to see those panes clearly and the lights.  Had they been on the other side, they wouldn't have seen them.

MR LAX: ;   The other side, you mean the front?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The front, the Springbok side, because the windows only show to the back, it doesn't show to the front side.

GEORGE BIZOS: Would there have been - if the lights of the lobby or of the room of the Security person or of the kitchen were on, would persons situated where we were shown they were parked, have been able to see those lights?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Possibly the kitchen lights where they were parking and/or through the Red Unit, they could see the reception, but as far as I can - I don't think they would be able to see the Reception through the kitchen walls, but they could see it via the Red Unit, that the lights are on.

GEORGE BIZOS: What do you mean by the Red Unit?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The Red Unit is the area where children from the age of 8 months to, I think, about two and a half years, were being nursed in the day, or schooled during the day.

GEORGE BIZOS: Where is that in relation to the entrance hall, or the foyer?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It's adjacent to the foyer, next to the kitchen, adjacent to the foyer.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you recall what lights were on and what lights were off when you were there?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: When I entered, the light of the hall was on, the foyer's lights were on, the passage leading towards the Board Room, those lights were on, as well as the lights in the Board Room.  The Board Room has on the - if you were to walk towards the Board Room from the foyer side, on the right-hand side there are offices, there are two toilets and the offices and those doors are closed, so you don't really check those offices, but the foyer and the passage, as well as the Board Room, those lights were definitely on.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you have meetings at the Early Learning Centre regularly?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Yes, Your Worship.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is that for the Q Youth Movement?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Kewtown Youth Movement.  Now let's confine ourselves to those meetings.  Did you have them regularly on the same day of the week, or did you adjourn to different days of the week?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: We basically met on a Thursday evening, every week.

GEORGE BIZOS: Every week.  And did you change the time of meeting and the time of the duration of the meeting, or were they fairly standard?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: The meeting was fairly standard, it started at 7 up until about 9 o'clock.  If we had events like games evenings etc., it might go beyond 9 o'clock, because we had a good relationship with Jack, the caretaker of the building and with the principal, so we had flexibility in terms of that.

GEORGE BIZOS: But generally speaking, your meeting started at 7 and finished at 9?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct, Your Worship.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were the facts that you met there, at what time you met and for how long your meetings lasted, matters of kept a secret, or did the community at large know that these meetings were taking place at that time and lasted approximately for that period of time?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Basically the entire community knew when we were meeting, at what time and we never had any secret meetings there, or anywhere else for that matter.

GEORGE BIZOS: At your meetings, was it confined to members, or could you have visitors as well?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Our meetings were open to everyone.  Anyone could come in.

GEORGE BIZOS: Whether a member of not?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Whether they're a member or not.

GEORGE BIZOS: It has been suggested that the information that reached Mr Verster, the Director of this Civil Co-operation, ...(indistinct), that the information that reached him that you were a bunch of gangsters ...

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's an untruth, Your Worship.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you in court when you and others were asked to identify yourselves?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That is correct, Your Worship.

GEORGE BIZOS: There were mainly the members of the Q Youth Movement Committee?