Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-06

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So did you then go along with this member of the community to go and get the car?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Yes, Chairperson, we were three because I do not know the third one.

CHAIRPERSON: It was yourself, the owner of the motor vehicle and the third person?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know the name of the owner of the motor vehicle, do you?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I do not remember him, because we did not introduce each other.

CHAIRPERSON: Was there any argument as to whether or not you should be put into a shack?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct, there was such an argument.

CHAIRPERSON: Who said you should not be put into a shack?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: It is Sonti.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the reason MRanced for not putting you in a shack?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That I should go and account before the community, as to what exactly happened, because I was the community leader.

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Did you make a statement to the Police about this matter?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Yes, I arrived at JOCC and I only reported that there was a corpse at Muleleki Extension 2.

MR MADASA: My question is have you made a statement to the Police about this matter?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: About which matter?

MR MADASA: The one you spoke about, about the killings, about you being captured by the SDU?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I did not give them the statement.

MR MADASA: Were you approached by the Police to make a statement?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: No, they did not.

MR MADASA: When did you arrive at Muleleki?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I arrived in Muleleki on the 1st of February 1993.

MR MADASA: When you arrived, how many Blocks were there?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: It was only three Blocks, the fourth one was not yet fully occupied.

MR MADASA: Can you name those Blocks, which were originally ...

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Block A, B and C.  I mentioned already that D was not yet fully occupied.

MR MADASA: Now, when you arrived there, was the SDU already in existence?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Yes, it existed already.

MR MADASA: In your main statement, evidence in chief, you said the SDU was formed in May or June 1993, now you say in February it was already in existence?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: The SDU was formed in May, the one that existed that time was the one formed by the Youth.

MR MOTATA: So the SDU that existed when you arrived at Muleleki when there were three Blocks, A, B and C and D not fully occupied, was the one that was formed by the Youth, are we understanding you to say that?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

MR MOTATA: Was there another SDU formed, that is now the one that was formed in May.  Who formed that one?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I do not have a full knowledge, but (indistinct) is the first person I knew.

MR MADASA: Do you know how it was formed?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I do not know how it was formed, I only heard that there was a newly formed SDU.

MR MADASA: The applicants say the SDU was formed in 1992, what do you say about that?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: It is a lie.

MR MADASA: When the SDU was formed in May, June 1993, was a meeting called?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: No, we only knew that there was an SDU, we saw them patrolling.

MR MADASA: And you later joined them and became one organisation?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MADASA: Why did you join the new formation instead of joining Youth?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: It is because the old one was only members of the Youth, we wanted to join them because they were elderly people, we wanted them to show us the way.

MR MADASA: You wanted them to teach you discipline?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: We wanted them to show us the way, maybe as the Youth we were not walking the right way.  We wanted them to teach us exactly how the SDU operates.

MR MADASA: You wanted them to teach you discipline when patrolling?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is correct.

MR MADASA: Because you were not disciplined?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Not that we lacked discipline, we did not have the knowledge.

MR MADASA: You have admitted that you wanted them to teach you discipline.

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Discipline and knowledge, yes.  Because we believed as the Youth we would be telling ourselves that we were doing the right thing, and would have been mistaken.

MR MADASA: So you had knowledge, but no discipline?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa, does it follow necessarily that because they wanted discipline, therefore they were not disciplined?

MR MADASA: Mr Chairman, the witness has said ...

CHAIRPERSON: Does it really follow necessarily?

MR MADASA: The witness has said they wanted the SDU because they were old, to teach them discipline because all that they had was knowledge, so I am asking now ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, he said, the witness said we wanted to join them because they were adults.  The essence of what he is saying is we wanted to learn from them, how to do things.
	What is being put to you is that you did not have discipline so that is why you wanted to be taught discipline?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: That is not correct, it doesn't mean that we did not have discipline.  We wanted a broad knowledge.

MR MADASA: Mr Chairman, the witness has said, I asked him specifically and his answer is that they wanted SDU to teach them discipline.  I used the discipline and he used the word discipline, now I am pursuing that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa, the witness has just answered you and he said they had - he disputes the fact that they did not have discipline.

MR MADASA: Are you contradicting yourself, because earlier on you said that you wanted to be taught discipline, now you say you had discipline?  Are you contradicting yourself?

CHAIRPERSON: The witness is not contradicting himself here.  The witness simply said we wanted knowledge and discipline and he denies that they did not have discipline, and he disputes that fact.

MR MADASA: Mr Chairman, the witness said they wanted knowledge and discipline.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Madasa, the witness, if you want to take the matter up, we can take the matter up in argument.

MR MADASA: Did they teach you anything when you joined them?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: No, they did not teach us anything because what we saw from them was the harassment of the community.

MR MADASA: Did you have arms of your own?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: At that time we had arms, but not many.   I think only two.

MR MADASA: When you say that time, when was that?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: A explained that the SDU was formed in May.  From February until that time in May because as members of the Youth, we were afraid to go to our parents to ask for money to buy arms.

MR MADASA: Where did you get the arms from?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: Some of our members who resided in the old township, gave us those arms.  They said because you are new, something might happen.  Now you must at least have something to protect yourselves with.

MR MADASA: Where did you get the arms from?

LETUSANG RAYMOND SHARON LEKABE: I told you Chair, that Muleleki was a new area.  Old townships where we came from, people provided us with guns.  For instance Zone 3, those people provided us with guns.
	They did not give us, they borrowed us so that at the time when we have ours, we would take back theirs.

MR MADASA: I asked you a short question, you are giving me a long explanation.  Did you get these guns from Zone 3?