Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

MR WILLS: Yes.  Was it your expectation that, or should I rather say, it wouldn't then have surprised you that Ms Khubeka arrived?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, that surprised me, Mr chairman.

MR WILLS: Why?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Well it was better for Ms Khubeka to still be in her position as co-ordinator and for us to continue close monitoring and we could have continued to monitor other groups that might have infiltrated the area via her.

MR WILLS: Look I know what, it would have been fantastic for you had the operation of infiltration continued ad infinitum and expanded.  I'm not talking about what would have been better for you.  It seems to me from the evidence gleaned so far, that Ms Khubeka was going to lead people into essentially a trap.  Is that right?  Where they'd be arrested, that was the plan.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I wasn't actually part of the plan but from the evidence I've heard here, I've ascertained that.

MR WILLS: So why are you telling me, why was your answer given to my last question, why didn't you just say : "I don't know".

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: What was the question?

MR WILLS: Sorry if you don't understand me.  You've indicated that you knew of this operation that Ms Khubeka was going to lead these people in a pseudo operation or words to that effect and then there was going to be some sort of arrest, not so?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, I said yes.

MR WILLS: Yes.  So how did Mrs Khubeka feature in these plans exactly.?  What was expected of her?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I was informed that she would lead one,  principally it was hopeful that the unit Commander of the MK unit would come and be introduced to the Vlakplaas pseudo unit.

MR WILLS: Yes.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: And that they would then separate and arrest, or a capture could be made of the MK persons that were now handed over unknowingly by Ms Khubeka to the operation, to the pseudo unit.

MR WILLS: Okay and so who told you that?  I mean, when were you appraised of that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Col Botha informed me of that before the operation started.

MR WILLS: Yes.  So then you were expecting, you were waiting at your base to question people?  You were expecting this so-called terrorist?  I prefer to use the word guerrilla, or freedom fighter.  But you were expecting a freedom fighter to  be brought to the base for interrogation?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I didn't know what to expect.  I was standing by there and however the operation would unfold is how it would be treated by the next step.  Not all operations go off pitter-patter straight.

CHAIRPERSON: But assuming that the operation was running reasonably well, you would have expected some person to have been arrested and brought back to base?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, I was expecting an MK person to come through.

MR WILLS: So no doubt the base was all geared up for interrogation, because that was going to be the plan?  In other words, somebody would have brought along a sjambok?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I know nothing about the sjambok, or who would have brought along a sjambok.

MR WILLS: The place was geared up for interrogation.  It was specifically chosen to handle a situation where somebody could be interrogated in such a way that their screams would not be heard by the public, or parties who were not in on your operation?  Obviously that's the case.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's not necessarily the case, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Well tell me why you went to that place.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, if the MK person was going to co-operate with us, we would have had to be out of the limelight to continue the operation and take it further.

MR WILLS: And if he didn't co-operate?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: We would have persevered Mr Chairman, in the operation.

MR WILLS: Yes, but surely that would have been at least a loud operation and you wouldn't have wanted people to hear about it?  I mean we've heard evidence to the effect that the chances are pretty good that if a freedom fighter doesn't co-operate with you that he gets slapped around a bit and that's a painful experience, so you'd want that to be hidden from the outside?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman, however many MK cadres, just merely by the fact of their arrest, did co-operate.

MR WILLS: Yes, I know, but you were planning for both situations no doubt.  You couldn't guarantee that the person was going to come in and just co-operate, not so?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Nobody can guarantee co-operation, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Yes, so that's one of the reasons why this base was selected, not so?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I didn't select the base, I had no reason, I had no personal knowledge of why the base was selected.

MR WILLS: So, how long had you been a policeman, at that stage?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: What year was this Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: 87.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: 87.  From 75.

MR WILLS: Twelve years, approximately.  Didn't it, didn't you feel compelled even though you were relatively junior in rank, didn't you feel compelled to stop the people beating this woman?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, there's nothing I could have done.  I didn't feel that compulsion.

MR WILLS: So you went along with it?  In other words you were at common purpose with the parties to the assault?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I was, Sir.

MR WILLS: I see in your application that you're not applying for the murder of this person.  Is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Now when you took her out can you recall what the situation was in the room?  Sorry, rather let me go to the first occasion you went into the room.  The first occasion you went into the room was relatively soon after her so-called death.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Sir.

MR WILLS: Now describe the situation to us.  Was anybody else in the room with you at that stage?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, when I first went in, I went in alone.

MR WILLS: And your purpose was?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: To see what condition, or what had happened inside that room.  Would I require a bag or some kind of thing to cover the person in.  I was making plans now on what I would require in order to dispose of the body.

MR WILLS: So you did a careful inspection of the situation at hand?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I summarise what I had seen and what I was to do, yes, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: And the light was on?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, that camp didn't have lights.  We were using a generator and I think there was a very small light that was on, but it wasn't bright lights like we are sitting under here, but there was a light on.

MR WILLS: Could you see?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I could see, Sir.

MR WILLS: Could you distinguish between let's say brown and white?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, Sir.

MR WILLS: Could you see if it was a black person lying on the floor or a white person lying on the floor?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I could see Sir.

MR WILLS: And what did you see?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I saw Ms Khubeka lying on her back towards the one corner of the room, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: And where were her arms?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I can't recall, Mr Chairman.  She was on her back.  I can only presume her arms were by her sides.

MR WILLS: And where were her legs?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: She was on her back and her legs were straight out in front of her.

MR WILLS: Yes, proceed.  What else?  Did you see anything else in the room?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, the floor was wet.

MR WILLS: Very wet?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I would say moderately wet, Mr Chairman, yes.