Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-20

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, with respect, my note and it may be wrong, reads as follows:  My learned friend asks his witness, he is leading her, nobody is stopping him, he is leading her, the evidence that he wants to put before you.  He says to her who were present.  She says some of the names are Mamome, Motsamai, Ngo, Tsoametsi, Erasmus, Du Plooy, Mningwa, Mmelesi.
	At the arrival we were taken to the kitchen is the next thing she says.  Then to various places.  I placed in brackets here, rooms, I think she might have said rooms or places.  I was called to Erasmus' room, he interrogated and slapped me.
	That is the one I missed.  Then to another room ...

CHAIRPERSON: She then said on my note I was slapped by Ngo, Motsamai and Mamome.

MR VISSER: And Mamome Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Well, Mr Chairman, then I must beg your pardon, because that name I haven't got here.  Is there a problem?

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, my note is Mningwa.

ADV DE JAGER: But then the very next sentence, the next answer then she continued with Du Plooy photo's and she said she was detained for three days and then I've got a note here Erasmus, Ngo, Motsamai and Mamome assaulted me.

MR STANDER: That is the version I've got.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I will then withdraw that question, because quite clearly my notes is not as good as they should be.

ADV DE JAGER: Mningwa is not mentioned and in the first, she mentioned the name Mningwa as Mr Brink also pointed out, I've got that note too.

MR VISSER: Well, Mr Chairman, again there may be some misunderstanding.  We are working through interpreters and so on and if it is only Mningwa that is now falling away, I am not going to make a big point out of that Mr Chairman, with great respect.
	The point I really want to put to this witness, that is important is the following:  Colonel Erasmus tells me that he had absolutely nothing to do with the arrest, transportation or interrogation of the group of which you were on, that was detained at Bloemfontein in 1985.  Nothing at all, he wasn't even there when you were interrogated, what do you say about that?

MS PHAHLANE: I know he was there, he was present.

MR VISSER: He tells me and this will be his evidence, that he was a Service Officer, is the best translation I could think of Mr Chairman.

INTERPRETER: Duty Officer.

MR VISSER: My Attorney tells me it is a Duty Officer, he was a Duty Officer at the time, he was not working with what was then known as the Black division, they had various divisions in the Security Branch, don't concern yourself about that.
	But it was the Black Division, or the Black Unit that had to do with the interrogation and detention of you people, do you have any comment on that?

MS PHAHLANE: It was not my first time to be arrested on that day.  I would not just mention his name out of nowhere, where would I have met him before, would I just come and create his name and say that he was involved with those activities?
	He was among the people who fetched me at home, every day, every time he was at Fountain, I found him there.

MR VISSER: And you are quite certain he also slapped you?

MS PHAHLANE: I am certain.

MR VISSER: And the reason why you are certain is you say that because when the blindfold was taken off, Ngo and Mr Erasmus were in the room after you had been slapped, do I understand you correctly?

MS PHAHLANE: I do understand you.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Where were you, where did you sleep after you had been interrogated at Fountains, where were you taken to spend the night?

MS PHAHLANE: We were taken to Glen, the police station at Glen.

MR VISSER: And you were kept for quite some time, kept in detention not so, it was longer than a week?

MS PHAHLANE: I spent months.

MR VISSER: Months?

MS PHAHLANE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Seeing that you know Mr Erasmus so well, did you see him visiting the female detainees together with another female police officer over the weekend, one weekend, more than one weekend, at Glen, did you see him there coming to visit you?

MS PHAHLANE: No.

MR VISSER: Now, he says that that is exactly where he came into contact with you.  As Duty Officer he, together with a female police officer, who incidently later Mr Chairman, became his wife, visited you at Glen.  You say that is not so?

MS PHAHLANE: I never saw him while I was in detention.

MR VISSER: But that can't be correct because you have just told us that he interrogated you and he slapped you?

MS PHAHLANE: Yes.

MR VISSER: But he didn't visit you at Glen to see if you were alright?

MS PHAHLANE: He did not visit us, they came to fetch us.  Mamome and Mningwa.  Mamome and the other gentleman who was called Davo, these are the people who used to fetch us.	They did not visit us.

MR VISSER: I am not talking about anybody else, I am talking about Mr Erasmus.

MS PHAHLANE: He never visited us.  I have never seen him while I was in detention.

MR VISSER: And those were the only ways in which you were assaulted?  You were slapped and you were blindfolded with a rubber tube?

CHAIRPERSON: And kicked by many people?

MR VISSER: Was she kicked Mr Chairman, all right?

CHAIRPERSON: She fell.

MR VISSER: Who kicked you?

MS PHAHLANE: I could not see because my eyes were blindfolded.

MR VISSER: Alright, you were not made to do frog jumps, were you?

MS PHAHLANE: No.  I was wearing a dress.

MR VISSER: And push ups?

MS PHAHLANE: No.

MR VISSER: No push ups?  Were you ever assaulted in the passages of Fountains Building?

MS PHAHLANE: Yes.

MR VISSER: By whom?

MS PHAHLANE: Mamome and them.

MR VISSER: But I thought you have just told us that Mamome assaulted you in his room, isn't that what you told us?

MS PHAHLANE: We were put on the floor, everybody who was passing, gave us a kick.  We were all at the passage, we were not supposed to be close to each other.

MR VISSER: Yes, well, let me round this off by saying to you Ms Phahlane, that Mr Mamome, Mr Erasmus, Mr Tsoametsi, Mr Mningwa, Mr Mmelesi, those ones, my clients, that you have implicated in any assault will come into the witness box, just give me an opportunity, and they will deny that you or anyone else was assaulted by any of them, or by anybody else in their presence.  Now you can talk.

MS PHAHLANE: Some of the names you have mentioned are the names of people who did not assault me, but they were present.

MR VISSER: Will you just specify for us exactly who of these names, did not assault you?  You have told us Mamome assaulted you, Motsamai, Ngo.  Did Tsoametsi assault you?

MS PHAHLANE: No.

MR VISSER: You said Erasmus slapped you apparently once, is that right?

MS PHAHLANE: They cuffed me on the hands and they used a tube to close my eyes.  That is why I said to you earlier on that I nearly fell in that room.  When I went back to the kitchen I could not even sit.

MR VISSER: Is that an answer to my question whether Erasmus slapped you once? Is that your answer to that question?

MS PHAHLANE: I did not say once, I said he mentioned that I should not look on the sides, I should sit still on the chair.  While sitting there, I heard a person approaching and suddenly I was blindfolded and I was kicked.

MR VISSER: Did this person approach through the door while you were in the room with Mr Erasmus, is that what you are saying?  Please just explain this to us.  You and Erasmus are in a room, is that correct?  Are you alone or is there somebody else with you there?

MS PHAHLANE: Mr Ngo was present.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo was present.  You are now blindfolded with a rubber tube, have I got this right?

MS PHAHLANE: I was facing the window side, the door was at my back, I was watching him as he was talking, demonstrating all those things.

MR VISSER: You were watching who, Mr Erasmus?

MS PHAHLANE: Yes, Mr Erasmus.

MR VISSER: And by the time you were blindfolded, nobody had assaulted you yet, is that correct?

MS PHAHLANE: It was after Mr Erasmus slapped me.