Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-12

GINOTRY DANSTER: We were asking him about weapons and wanted to know where the weapons were in South Africa, where they were hidden.

MR ROUX: Did this interrogation and torture eventually succeed?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR ROUX: Do you know about any pointing out?

GINOTRY DANSTER: After he'd given us certain information, we left for East London, from East London we went to Umtata.  Can I carry on?

MR ROUX: Yes.

GINOTRY DANSTER: In Umtata, according to the information we got from Sizwe, we were with three East London members and we had to go and arrest two men that worked in the bank.  However, as South African Police, we did not have the right to go and arrest people in the Transkei.
	Mr du Plessis then spoke to an officer that was there - that took a while.  This officer then had to go and arrest these two people in the bank.  These two people must have been told that there were police in the bank and they ran away. 
	They then went to Butterworth.  These two men in Butterworth being followed by two detectives.  The one police got injured even a woman policeman.  They then ran away towards McCLear with a car.  There was a roadblock in South Africa.  Those two men ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear.

MR ROUX: Sorry, Mr Dunster, the interpreter couldn't hear your previous sentence.

GINOTRY DANSTER: These two men that had shot the woman police and the one male police took their car, used it to get away.  There was a roadblock and when they got there they started shooting, two people were injured.

MR ROUX: Mr Danster, if I can just interrupt you there.
	Mr Chairman, I don't know if this is so relevant to the application at this stage, if I maybe can get back to Mr Kondile.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, one doesn't know whether he witnessed all this or he's repeating what he'd been told by somebody else and even if he did see it, I don't know what it's relevance is to this case.

MR ROUX: I was actually - my learned colleagues asked me to ask this.  I didn't intend to examine him like this or lead him on this, I'd rather go back to Mr Kondile specifically.

ADV GCABASHE: If I might just ask, having hear this evidence, where were you all of this time?  Did you go to East London, did you go to Umtata?  Did you get as far as the roadblock at McClear?

GINOTRY DANSTER: If we had not gone with Sizwe to the bank, these people would not have been shot, they would not have run away in the first place.

ADV GCABASHE: But you personally, you were there, that's really what I want to know?

GINOTRY DANSTER: In Umtata?

ADV GCABASHE: And East London.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, I was there both times.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, let's move on.

MR ROUX: Was Mr Kondile - do you know anything about Mr Kondile tempted to being turned?

CHAIRPERSON: What happened?  Did you return after this attempt to arrest those people, did you return to Jeffrey's Bay?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I think the Judge was asking me a question, I didn't hear him.

CHAIRPERSON: After you went to arrest these two people in Umtata, did you return to Jeffrey's Bay?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: All of you, including Mr Kondile?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the next thing of any importance that happened in which you were involved?

GINOTRY DANSTER: (No English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: What's that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Mr du Plessis tried to get Sizwe to work for the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Sizwe refused.

CHAIRPERSON: What month are we now talking about?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I couldn't tell you the month but it was after a while.

CHAIRPERSON: And this was after you had returned to Jeffrey's Bay from Umtata?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

MR ROUX: What was Mr Kondile's reaction to this attempt?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Sizwe response was that Chris Hani trusts him or trusted him.  He could never work for the police, he'd rather be charged and go to court but he would never work for the police.

MR ROUX: You heard the testimony of the applicants, especially Mr du Plessis who testified about a note being found, do you know anything about this note that was testified here about?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I have no knowledge.

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Danster, ever when Mr Kondile would have been in the shower in Jeffrey's Bay, where would the people who were instructed to guard him be when he was in the shower?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He showered in his shower, they locked the door and the bars.

JUDGE PILLAY: Then where would you be at that time?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I would be in the office.
Would there be anybody in the place where he was being guarded? - I believe it was a barracks or something.

GINOTRY DANSTER: He'd be alone in the cell, there would be nobody else there.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just talk about the questioning of Mr Kondile.  You say that you were given a piece of paper by Mr du Plessis?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That paper contained the kind of questions that you were to put to Mr Kondile, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: In what language did you communicate with Mr Kondile?

GINOTRY DANSTER: English, Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: When you talked to Mr Kondile, did you talk to him in English?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I'd speak both English and Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON: And did Mr Raath have anything to do with questioning?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, he would ask in Afrikaans.

CHAIRPERSON: In what language would Mr Kondile reply?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Sizwe would speak to me and I would interpret for Raath.

CHAIRPERSON: In what language would Mr du Plessis talk to Kondile?

GINOTRY DANSTER: English.

CHAIRPERSON: And would Mr Kondile reply in English?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR ROUX: Just to sum up, during this whole period of detention, who were all the people involved in the interrogation and torture of Mr Kondile?

ADV DE JAGER: Perhaps he could if necessary, split it up, who was involved in the interrogation and who was involved in the torture and if they were involved in both, tell us they were involved in both.

GINOTRY DANSTER: I will name them as follows: Captain du Plessis, Captain Roelofse, Niewoudt, Buzani, Raath and myself.

ADV DE JAGER: Were any people from East London involved?

GINOTRY DANSTER: There were people from East London that arrived.

ADV DE JAGER: How many?

GINOTRY DANSTER: A few detectives.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, two or three or?

GINOTRY DANSTER: More than three.

ADV DE JAGER: What did they do?

GINOTRY DANSTER: When the detectives from East London arrived, we then withdrew from investigating the matter, they interrogated Sizwe themselves.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he give answers to them?

ADV DE JAGER: Were you present at that stage when they interrogated him?

GINOTRY DANSTER: No, I wasn't there.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you told us that Mr du Plessis told you that you must not beat him up, do you remember that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Had he already been beaten at that stage?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He'd been tortured but he said that we must not hit him physically or bang him against the wall so that there are marks on his body, external wounds.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that, you must not beat him up or bang him against the wall?  Are those his words?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, he said we must not beat him up so that there are marks on his body.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you also used the words: "or bang him against the wall".

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, he said that he must not be banged against the wall.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, had anybody tried to beat him up or bang him against the wall?

GINOTRY DANSTER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And have you seen anybody beat Mr Kondile?

GINOTRY DANSTER: No.

CHAIRPERSON: No assault took place in your presence?

GINOTRY DANSTER: No, I saw no assault.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Mr Kondile ever complain to you that he had been assaulted?