Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-17

MR LAX: You did say that, that is quite correct, but you also said later on in the day, that on the way she was in fact sitting next to you with her head on the dashboard and that is how she was on the way.  Please explain these two different ways for us.

LUVUYO KULMAN: Are you saying that I said that her head was on the dashboard?

MR LAX: You said she fell forward in a sitting position with her head against the dashboard, and she stayed like that until you got to Mbashi, sitting next to you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I don't remember even in my notes about that, maybe the Committee can help me.

MR LAX: It is okay, the record will speak for itself, I don't need to canvass it too far.  I am quite happy, if I had made a mistake, I am sorry, I am quite happy to withdraw it.  The record will speak for itself.
	I could well be wrong.  When did you give the money to Mr Thutha?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Given by me?

MR LAX: You took the money out of the safe, you opened the safe, you saw the money there, you took it out, that was your evidence?

LUVUYO KULMAN: What was revealed here yesterday, you said, you asked what other things were in the car, I then said to you between the passenger seat and the driver seat was a safe.

MR LAX: Yes, and you told us how you opened it and looked inside and took the money out.  Now, how did the money get from Mr Thutha from you, because you also told us that you went to comrade Mandla and you said I've got all this money and he said don't give it to me now, give it to me later when we reach our other rendezvous, when we get back to base in fact, was what he said, you told us he said.
	At what point did you give the money to Mr Thutha?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Could Adv Gcabashe help me if she's got that on her notes perhaps, I don't remember having said that.

MR LAX: Well, it doesn't make any difference.  Where do you say he got the money from?  You don't agree with me, you don't remember saying that, where do you say he got the money from?

LUVUYO KULMAN: I can't answer because ...

INTERPRETER: The interpreter thinks that the witness said he could not understand the question.

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Kulman, just answer the question that you are being asked now and leave, proceed and answer this question.  If we need to go back to the other one, should we find the notes, we will come back to it.  In the meantime, let's proceed, answer this particular question.

MR LAX: Do you understand what I am asking you now?  I will repeat it again.
	Where did Mr Thutha get the money from?

LUVUYO KULMAN: I don't know where he got it from.

MR LAX: Well, let me ...

CHAIRPERSON: You went to search the vehicle for anything that might be useful to the Army, is that not so?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes, correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see the money?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Perhaps I did see it, I can't remember clearly.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you left, you were the passenger, you co-accused was driving.

LUVUYO KULMAN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So he couldn't have taken any money then, while he was driving the vehicle?

LUVUYO KULMAN: I don't know about that.

MR LAX: You see you were sitting next to the man, you were both in the truck, you now leave from Mbashi, you are heading on your way back, correct?

LUVUYO KULMAN: From Mbashi back to where we were?

MR LAX: To back to wherever you were heading.  Where were you going from Mbashi once you left Mbashi, after Donnie had been shot and after Thandekulo had driven off, where were you going?

LUVUYO KULMAN: We were going towards Idutywa.

MR LAX: Correct.  And you were the passenger and Mr Thutha was driving?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes.

MR LAX: Where was the money, was it still in the safe at this stage?

LUVUYO KULMAN: It could happen that it was in the safe.

UNKNOWN: No, if you don't mind, my note, we came back at 11.50 yesterday, just before twelve o'clock and my note here is, we found the money at Mbashi in the truck safe, between the driver seat and the passenger seat.
	This is where he kept the money, the trunk was welded, you think the trunk was welded into the car.  Thandekulo said we would account for the money when we got to the destination.
	I am not saying this is totally accurate, but I think it is just about what you said.  These are my notes, so you found the money at Mbashi.

MR LAX: That was my precise recollection and I have a similar note.

LUVUYO KULMAN: It could be that it is so.

MR LAX: That is what you told us.

CHAIRPERSON: You told us yesterday that in the van you found a pistol and some money.  You didn't find the pistol, your leader found the pistol and you found some money.

LUVUYO KULMAN: It could be so.

CHAIRPERSON: And that you didn't get to count the money.  That is what you told us yesterday.

LUVUYO KULMAN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say you don't know anything about the money?

LUVUYO KULMAN: The Commission must remember that I have a problem of memory lapse, I am not pretending.  Empathise with me, I can't help it.
	I can't even recall what happened yesterday, I can't remember exactly what happened yesterday.  I do remember that I was here, but I can't remember each and every detail that I answered.

MR LAX: It is okay, let's just leave it I think.  So you don't know how Mr Thutha got the money then?

LUVUYO KULMAN: I can't explain that, but he is here, I am sure he would say.

MR LAX: Now, what did you do while you were driving from Mbashi on the way to Idutywa?

LUVUYO KULMAN: Just before we got to Idutywa, the traffic cops stopped us, that is when we got arrested.

MR LAX: And you didn't give the money to Mr Thutha in that time between the time you left Mbashi to the time you got arrested?

LUVUYO KULMAN: I don't remember.

MR LAX: Well, that is fine.

UNKNOWN: Just on this money thing.  You were the Commander, I mean you were the senior person in the car, why would Mr Thutha have the money, you were in charge as I understand it?

LUVUYO KULMAN: I can't answer that, but there is nothing wrong with him taking the money, because anything could have happened, the money could have helped us under emergency.  Perhaps I could have escaped and maybe we could have gotten a chance or something could have happened that would demand the money, or that we could use the money for.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Have you finished Mr Mbandazayo, nothing else you want to raise with him, arising out of our ...

MR MBANDAZAYO: No Mr Chairman.

MR MBANDAZAYO: .

LUVUYO KULMAN: Can I ask for a moment?

MR LAX: Go ahead.

LUVUYO KULMAN: I have a question to ask the Committee.  Madasi was here testifying, he asked when the Commission is going to consider releasing APLA members.  APLA depended on PAC, it is an affiliation of PAC.
	Is it the PAC that does not cooperate with the Commission?  As Luvuyo Kulman, there is no such.  It is probably the TRC that does not cooperate with the PAC, not the other way around.
	Perhaps the person who explained to Madasi, could explain to me too, I didn't understand.  The TRC has done a lot so far, however when it deals with APLA cases, they take a long time to respond or to grant amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: We are not here to listen to a political speech from you, if you want to hear about the matter, discuss it with your Attorney, who is fully aware of the position.
	You may now go back to your seat.

<UNKNOWN>: .

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I don't know at what time do we take tea time?

CHAIRPERSON: A bit later.

MR MBANDAZAYO: A bit later on, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: If anybody wants to make representations, I thought we should adjourn at about eleven o'clock, and if we are going to sit later in the afternoon, we will take an adjournment in the afternoon as well.  Does that suit you?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ZAMA THUTHA: (sworn states)