Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-11-02

ADV MOTATA: I've got none, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the Panel?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No, Mr Chairman, nothing, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Masilela, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: That concludes, Mr Chairperson, the evidence for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No witness to lead, Mr Chairman, that concludes the evidence as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo, are you in a position to argue now or do you wish ...?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, I think I'm in a position now.  I will do my best so that we conclude this.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo.  Mr Mpshe, are you in a position to argue?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I am, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  	Mr Chairperson, I would not go through the provisions of Section 20(1) and (2), as it is well-known to this Committee.
	Mr Chairperson, the applicant in this matter has testified before this Committee and told the Committee that he was a supporter of the Pan Africanist Congress, he was recruited by Mr Masilela and that he committed the offence, that is that of escaping from prison and that of robbery in prison at the instance of Mr Masilela who was a member of APLA and as such a member of the Pan Africanist Congress of Azania, which is a known political organisation in this country, who at the time was fighting for the liberation of the African people.
	As such, Mr Sapele acted on the instruction of Mr Masilela who also testified and confirmed that, that he recruited many people in prison, he was conscientising them, trying to convince them to dissuade from what he termed as criminal activities and join them in the liberation of the African people, and that Mr Sapele was the person who was so enthusiastic about joining APLA.  And as a result thereof they arranged that they escape from prison to go to Zimbabwe and that also Mr Sapele to undergo training. 
	Mr Chairperson, it is therefore my submission that the applicant has complied with the requirements of Section 20(1) and also (2), that at the time he was quite acting on behalf of APLA at the time, which as I indicated was a publicly known political organisation which was engaged in the political struggle.  And that when he acted he did not act for personal gain nor out of malice but he bona fide acted on behalf of his organisation, which was PAC.
	Mr Chairperson, Mr Sapele, one would argue that at the time he joined APLA and that is was only Mr Masilela who was a fully fledged member of APLA at the time, and Mr Masilela was in prison for that reason, being a member of APLA a what Mr Masilela did in prison was in continuation of his struggle to fight against the regime at the time.
	Mr Chairperson, my argument is that Mr Sapele was in prison for criminal activities and he does not deny that and he does not deny that at the instance of Mr Masilela as he was serving his prison sentence, he was recruited by him.  At the time he acted and tried to escape from prison and committed robbery, he no longer involved in criminal activities.  At that time he acted as a member, as a supporter of PAC and an aspirant member of APLA, as what he did was trying to join APLA outside.  
	And as such what he did in that particular time, trying to escape from prison and the robbing of the money, the money which was going to be used as a mode of transport to their destination, which is they were going to Zimbabwe, they wanted to leave the country so they wanted money and that money was to be used in pursuance of that objective, that one of being part of the liberation struggle.
	And it is therefore my humble submission, Mr Chairperson, that the applicant has fulfilled the requirements of the Act and that he has made full disclosure with regard to his activities on the day in question and as he has been conferred to by Mr Masilela.  As such it is my humble request that this Committee should grant amnesty to Mr Sapele as applied unless the Committee wants me to address it on a specific point, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo.  Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee.
	Mr Chairman, it is so interesting that my learned friend is trying to cloth the applicant, Mr Sapele, with clothes that he never had, the clothing of a political organisation.  Mr Chairman, I will just respond to what my learned friend has said, that will be my argument.
	My learned friend has correctly used the word "aspirant member", that is a very important word.  In other words, if we have analyse the word "aspirant member", it means he was aspiring to become one, he was not one at that time when this robbery was committed. 
	Mr Chairman, even if it can be said that what Mr Sapele did he did under the instruction, as it was said he acted at the instance of Mr Masilela, Mr Chairman, the TRC Act knows no general amnesty or amnesty for a group of persons, it makes mention of individuals for specific offences.  It cannot be said that if Mr Masilela was an activist, which I do not dispute, and whatever he did can also be imputed onto Mr Sapele, that is untenable, completely untenable.
	Mr Chairman, it has been stated to you and the Honourable Members of the Committee, that the offence committed by Mr Sapele whilst in prison, was in the interest of PAC.  One wonders as to what would PAC stand to gain by a person escaping out of jail.  That really brings a very big question mark.
	Inasfar as the money is concerned, I don't see how it can be clothed with any political motive or motivation.  The evidence is very clear from both Mr Masilela as well as Mr Sapele that the money was for personal use and thus it cannot be said that it was intended to be in the interest of the PAC.
	Mr Chairman, with the greatest of respect, I fail to understand how my learned friend could be so ambitious to cloth Mr Sapele with the provisions of the ACT.  And I want to move that no amnesty has been - no successful application for amnesty in this regard has been done.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo, do you have a reply?

MR MBANDAZAYO IN FURTHER ARGUMENT: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, just briefly.
	Mr Chairperson, I don't think it is denied, as I indicated I use the word "aspirant member of APLA", it's not denied that he was a supporter of PAC, which is also one of the requirements of the Act.  He was a supporter, there's no dispute about that.  A supporter in terms of the Act can apply for amnesty and that is what we are saying, that he was a supporter of PAC at the time and that was also his evidence, but an aspirant member of APLA ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But didn't he also say that he didn't have any idea as to what PAC stood for?  So he was a supporter of a movement that he didn't know anything about.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, I agree with you that he has said that he did not know but he indicated that he was told that he is going to fight for the liberation of the African people.  That is what he knew broadly, but not detailed what PAC stood for ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm not talking about after he spoke to Mr Masilela, but he also said that he was for a long time a supporter of the PAC, while he was in prison.  Because if one takes a look at his record, most of his recent past in prison, but he said he was a long time supporter of PAC, even before he met Mr Masilela.  He also said he didn't know what it stands for.