Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-21

MR MBAMBO: It was my duty at the time when she teaching at Nongoma and she was staying at KwaZulu Government flats in Ulundi, to drive her every Sunday afternoon together with Mrs Mtale taking her back to Ulundi and I will return with the car and leave it with her husband Mr Mbuaze.  On Fridays I will then go back to Ulundi to fetch her using her car.

MR HEWIT: And she would be in the car with you sometimes?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, on many occasions.

MR HEWIT: Did Mrs Mbuaze not have any problem or difficulty being seen in your company?

MR MBAMBO: No, she was very proud of being seen with me.

MR HEWIT: Now, these operations which you performed, would you describe them as covert operations?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: No covert operations means that they're under cover, they're clandestine and that the people who perpetrate the murders or the attacks, their identity shouldn't be known, isn't that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: And you wanted to keep your identify presumably secret?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is why I would wear a balaclava at night.

MR HEWIT: Mrs Mbuaze, did she want to keep her identity in this hit squad hierarchy a secret?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: Prince Gideon Zulu, did he want to keep his identity in the hit squad hierarchy a secret?

MR MBAMBO: They all wanted to remain anonymous, that's why they're not here today.

MR HEWIT: And Mr Biela too, presumably he wanted to remain anonymous himself?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's true.

MR HEWIT: Now, as I understand your evidence, you and various other members of the hit squad were constantly at Mrs Mbuaze's house, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is the truth.

MR HEWIT: And as I understand your evidence yesterday, after one particular operation you actually all walked back to her house from the operation and she was outside waiting for you, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Was she not concerned about you members of the hit squad immediately coming back to her house after an attack?

MR MBAMBO: No, she was only concerned about our safety.  She would only relax when she saw we were all returning safely.

MR HEWIT: So those instances then when you were seen at her house or went back to her house after an attack she didn't seem particularly worried about remaining anonymous or staying distant from you people?

MR MBAMBO: No.

MR HEWIT: Can you explain that, if the whole object of this manoeuvre was to be a covert operation and she was to remain anonymous?

MR MBAMBO: Firstly I will explain by saying that these covert operations you're talking about, you used your own definition of explaining it and I agree with certain elements
of your definition but as reference to the IFP's definition of covert, all that happened as has been explained here, happened within that ambit of covert operations and therefore our presence at Mrs Mbuaze's house made her proud and pleased.  She would normally ride with me or Zina in her vehicle or Zweli Dlamini ...[end of tape]

MR HEWIT: ...[inaudible] read to you paragraph 89 of your affidavit at the typed page 37.  In that paragraph you state as follows
"At J2 section we went to a certain house.  The house is situated in an area known as University Lecturers Section"
Is that correct, do you remember that?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I remember.
MR HEWIT
"A house was pointed out to us by Siabonga Mbuaze"
Correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.
MR HEWIT
"He said the house belonged to an ANC member who had once spread rumours that Mrs Mbuaze was killing people"
Is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.
MR HEWIT
"We attacked the house"
Correct?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.
MR HEWIT
"We fired shots through the front windows and front door"

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.
MR HEWIT
"I do not know if anybody was injured"

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.
MR HEWIT
"From there we walked on foot to Mrs Mbuaze's house and she was sitting outside waiting for us"

MR MBAMBO: That's correct.

MR HEWIT: Now, were you told to attack this house because the person in it was spreading rumours that Mrs Mbuaze was killing people?

MR MBAMBO: That is correct.

MR HEWIT: Was Mrs Mbuaze, did she say that to you?

MR MBAMBO: We were told by her son Siabonga Mbuaze.

MR HEWIT: Well, did her son say that his mother was very annoyed about people spreading rumours that she was killing people?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: And do you know for a fact yourself that Mrs Mbuaze was annoyed and cross and angry about the fact that someone was spreading rumours that she was killing people?

MR MBAMBO: I do know.

MR HEWIT: From that did you conclude that she didn't want people to think she was killing people?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: Yet she was happy to be seen in your company on a fairly regular basis?

MR MBAMBO: That's true.

MR HEWIT: Did the people in eSikhawini, the UDF, ANC people, did they know that you were a hit squad member?

MR MBAMBO: They had suspicions but were not certain of that fact.

MR HEWIT: But you were suspected of being a hit squad member?

MR MBAMBO: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Well don't you think that your continued association at Mrs Mbuaze's house made it obvious then to those people with those suspicions that Mrs Mbuaze must also be involved in the killing?

MR MBAMBO: That's something that has never concerned me, I've never thought that far.

MR HEWIT: Is your evidence that Mrs Mbuaze at no stage told you and other hit squad members to distance themselves from her or her home?

MR MBAMBO: She wanted us to remain close to her.

MR HEWIT: So you wasn't worried about people seeing you at her home?

MR MBAMBO: No, not at all.

MR HEWIT: But in the next breath she was very annoyed when people associated the two of you as possibly suspected of killing people?

MR MBAMBO: That is so.

MR HEWIT: Did Mr Biela ever object to you going to his home?

MR MBAMBO: No, never.

MR HEWIT: Did he at no stage ever say he was concerned about people associating hit squad members with him?

MR MBAMBO: When rumours started circulating that his vehicle was suspected in the activities of hit squads the only thing that the did was to take this car and drive it personally and he took the Nissan Skyline and gave it to his wife, that was the only thing that he did.

MR HEWIT: Mr Luthuli told us that there was a certain chain of command with eSikhawini hit squad, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR HEWIT: Who was your immediate superior?

MR MBAMBO: Ginam Mkhize.

MR HEWIT: Who was his immediate superior?

MR MBAMBO: Mr Mbuaze, Bebe Biela, Brigadier Umzumela, G M Mkhize the Councillor, Chief Mataba, Mr Mnzuza, a J1 Councillor, Mrs Njali, a Councillor at H1.

MR HEWIT: So it would be incorrect to state then that Mkhize was to take his instructions only from a superior officer in the Police Force, namely Captain Langene and no-one else?

MR MBAMBO: It is not true.  He received instructions from Captain Langene as well as from Prince Gideon Zulu, as well as from the local leadership because a matter would be taken from the local leadership and then referred to Captain Langene and then it would be referred back to Ginam Mkhize.

MR HEWIT: If that was the system surely the only person that Mkhize would ever have to deal with would be Captain Langene?

MR MBAMBO: Not only Captain Langene but the others that I've mentioned as well as Dalaxolo Luthuli as well M Z Khumalo.

MR HEWIT: Why could Captain Langene not get information from the hierarchy and then just deal with the policemen immediately below him, namely Mkhize?  Wouldn't that have been a more secure system?

MR MBAMBO: I would agree with you but that was the way the IFP chose to operate.

MR HEWIT: So what you're saying to us is that in this whole establishment of the hit squad system and the way it worked no regard whatsoever was paid to security as one would normally find in the police force or in the military?