Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: There could have been a personal problem of his.

<UNKNOWN>: : Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY JUDGE WILSON

<UNKNOWN>: : That could have been a personal problem with the security police?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were they not active at that time, the security police in the area, the security police of the South African Police?

ANSWER: No they were.

ADV DE JAGER: In all fairness it could have been a problem with another inhabitant of the township too, a private trouble he had with one of his colleagues at school or whatever it may, you don't know anything about it?

ANSWER: No I don't know personally what the actual problem was.

<UNKNOWN>: : This vigilante group in the end, how would you say at their peak, how many members did they consist of or can't you tell us?

ANSWER: At a guess there should have been about 50 or so.

<UNKNOWN>: : About 50 of so.

ANSWER: Hmm.

<UNKNOWN>: : You told us at the beginning they were formed by businessmen?

ANSWER: Yes.
1b.

<UNKNOWN>: /...
82	D NDZEKU

<UNKNOWN>: : Businessmen across the political spectrum?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : To protect their property against thugs and gangsters and robbery?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : At that stage I presume they in fact worked together with the police, the vigilantes?

ANSWER: No not exactly.

<UNKNOWN>: : But if they wanted to protect, they were an open group formed in order to protect against crime I would presume they would have acted in collusion with the police?

ANSWER: That was not what happened, you see because there were perceptions that the police were doing nothing to curb the crimes committed against the community.

<UNKNOWN>: : I see, so they formed a separate committee or group in order to protect the public from the gangsters or the thieves or the criminals in the area?

ANSWER: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: : When were they infiltrated or taken over by the break-away group?   Is it correct that in the beginning they fought against the break-away group?

ANSWER: I'm not sure exactly when but the suspicion came when they were seen in the company of the police, I'm not sure at exactly what period.

<UNKNOWN>: : Could you say round about, you say the vigilantes were formed at the beginning of 1990?

ANSWER: Hmm it was say the second half of 1990.

<UNKNOWN>: : During the second half of 1990.   Do you know who was the leader of the vigilantes or didn't they have a leader?

ANSWER: I'm not sure who their leader was but I only know
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83	D NDZEKU
of the few individuals who were appearing to be prominent figures of the group.

<UNKNOWN>: : Could you name a few of them?

ANSWER: It was, I'm not sure whether it's John or James Maseko and a David Majeko and just forgetting the names of them now.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were any of them killed during the period?

ANSWER: Killed?

<UNKNOWN>: : Ja.

ANSWER: Not as far as I know.

<UNKNOWN>: : Were any vigilantes killed during the period except for David?

ANSWER: No I only know of David.

<UNKNOWN>: : This gang you said also committed rapes, rape on women?

ANSWER: Yes there were such allegations.

<UNKNOWN>: : Did they target a specific group of woman or did they generally rape any member of the community?

ANSWER: The allegations then were that their target was the female activists in the township.

<UNKNOWN>: : Do you know whether there were any other people reaped who were not members of the ANC Women's League and belonging to other political parties, by the vigilantes - I'm not talking about other criminals?

ANSWER: I'm not aware of that.

<UNKNOWN>: : I see.   One last question who represented the vigilantes on the peace committee that was formed during early December or round about the end of 1990?

ANSWER: It was two Mgundla(?) brothers, Thomas and Toko, Thomas and Tati I'm sorry.

<UNKNOWN>: : Thomas and?
1b.

ANSWER: /...
84	D NDZEKU

ANSWER: Tati.

<UNKNOWN>: : Mgundla, do you know them, are they still around?

ANSWER: They are still around.

<UNKNOWN>: : Sorry?

ANSWER: They are still around.

<UNKNOWN>: : Do you know where they live?

ANSWER: Yes I do.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADVOCATE DE JAGER
QUESTIONS BY MS KHAMPEPE

<UNKNOWN>: : Mr Ndzeku who initiated the notion of collecting donations for the purposes of buying firearms?

ANSWER: I don't have information on that.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was it the executive committee of the ANC or was it the Youth League?

ANSWER: It could have been the executive of the Youth League but I'm not sure exactly who.

<UNKNOWN>: : Do you know when these arms were purchased?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: : Was the executive committee ever involved in the question of storing ammunition for the Youth League?

ANSWER: Which executive?

<UNKNOWN>: : The local branch executive of the ANC?

ANSWER: No.

<UNKNOWN>: : To your knowledge was the executive committee of the Youth League involved in such storage of ammunition for the SDU members?

ANSWER: I don't have information on that.

<UNKNOWN>: : The SDU members were they linked to the Youth League or were they linked to any particular structure of the Civic Association or the local branch of the African
1b.	National /...
85	D NDZEKU
National Congress?

ANSWER: They were closely linked to both the Civic Association and the Youth League.

<UNKNOWN>: : So the executive committee of the ANC did not have very close links with the Youth League, it didn't know exactly what they were doing most of the time, particularly when it comes to the issue of ammunition?

ANSWER: Possibly I have to clarify it a little bit, that most of the information might have been kept away from the executive committee, under the notion that persisted then that the executive committee was a sort of "soft" on the vigilantes.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS KHAMPEPE
NO RE-EXAMINATION
WITNESS IS EXCUSED
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: /...
86	P LEBONA

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Chairperson the applicant before the committee is Peter Lebona.   Chairperson, Peter Lebona will be giving his evidence in Sesotho, he will not have a problem with Tswana as well, can he be sworn in please?

CHAIRPERSON: : ....we have been dealing with up to now, is that right?    ...what we have been hearing up to now in order to ascertain whether you have any witnesses to call in that regard?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman, as I had indicated yesterday by means of the copy of the report from the investigative unit, which reports were tabled before your good selves, there are no witnesses that I intend calling as per reports tabled.  The reports were tabled yesterday afternoon just shortly before the adjournment.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mpshe, the deceased David Majeko, did he have any family, a father, a mother, he's been at school here would nobody know about his family or his next-of-kin?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman if I recall the contents of the report from the investigative unit, it is to the effect - and I'm not quoting verbatim - that the people during this harassment and maiming and killing, moved out of the area because that was an informal settlement and they cannot be traced.   They even enlisted the services of Mr Nzdeku who is now the mayor in that area but he was also unsuccessful in tracing the next-of-kin to the deceased.   Those are the contents of the report.

ADV DE JAGER: : (microphone not on)...representatives are here so if perhaps there is anybody in the hall here that could throw some light, they could get in touch with Professor Meiring or Dr Mgwaso next to him in order to give
2.	information /...
87
information about any victims that there may be.

JUDGE WILSON: : We have heard that his grandmother I think it was, was living very close to 658, wasn't that the...

ATTORNEY: Yes Mr Chairperson that was the evidence but as the Chair will well know, it is a investigative unit was given an instruction to go and trace these people, and I depend on their reports.