Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-30

CHAIRPERSON: And then, if he offered you rocket launchers, why didn't you say "look, we don't need rocket launchers, we need firearms, conventional firearms"?  You are negotiating a price for particular firearms?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I was also excited at the prospect of getting those firearms, those weapons, because I was aware of how they could be used, so it did not occur to me that I should not accept...

CHAIRPERSON: No, come Mr Sithole, you are a trained cadre from MK.  I know of very few MK members who are undisciplined.   You were trained for five years, not so?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you haven't got time as a cadre, to become excited about particular types of weaponry?  Correct?  If you were a trained MK member, you would not have got excited at the type of weaponry on offer, perhaps you would have got excited at the success of your mission of obtaining firearms, correct?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Well, I see that now, but at that time it did not occur to me.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Mr Sithole, can you just help me there as well, you said you have this knowledge.  This kind of arm that we are talking about here now, a rocket launcher, would that be effective against a armoured vehicle?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, they can be used because they are capable of destroying everything, even a wall.

JUDGE POTGIETER: If I say armoured vehicle like the vehicles that the Security Forces used to use, but also vehicles like say the Fidelity Guards  would use to transport large amounts of cash?

LUCKY SITHOLE: If you use that in such a mission, that is to rob money, it cannot be used for the reason that it will destroy everything, so you would not be able to get even that money.  It is a weapon of war.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Yes, but I don't want to get involved in the niceties of this sort of operation, I just want to know whether it would be effective against those kind of vehicles that I have listed?

LUCKY SITHOLE: It can be used, however you can only use it if you just want to destroy the vehicle, not if you have the intention of getting the money.

JUDGE POTGIETER: Yes, thank you.

MR LAX: Can I just follow up?  Can you just help me with one little thing you have said earlier that worried me a little bit?  You spoke about attacking Natal Command with such weapons, did I hear you right?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I was making an example, that such a place could have been targeted, if you had such weapons in your possession.  If I had been asked or ordered to do that, I would have done that.

MR LAX: You spoke about that being part of the struggle and you said South Africa was not yet at a time where those things were no longer necessary?  Isn't that right?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: But the fact of the matter is that the armed struggle had already been ceased at that point in time, November 1992, it had been suspended?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, it had been suspended, but the situation was that people were dying like flies, for example the Boipatong and Bisho massacres, as well as the incident that I mentioned earlier at Z Section.  As a trained cadre, yes, we were  ordered to suspend the armed struggle, but the situation was such that it affected us  and we did want to do something to combat the situation.

MR LAX: You wouldn't have wanted to do something on your own, you would have done something as a disciplined member of MK under proper orders and instructions of MK?  At that stage you were part of a community formation?  Is that not so, you were a community formation at that point in time?

LUCKY SITHOLE: That is correct.

MR LAX: MK itself wasn't operating?  MK had suspended its activities and its members, where they were based in communities, formed part of community structures?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, that is correct, but Mr Mapomule and Mr Shangasi were forced by circumstances on the ground, to come to me and I realised the need for me to accept what they were telling me.

MR LAX: Yes, but the point I am making is an attack on Natal Command would have been totally and utterly out of order, any kind of semblance of order because that was a direct attack on the Army of the then State in circumstances which amounted to an act of war, when the armed struggle had been suspended?  It wasn't a question of defending your community?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, I would not dispute what you are saying.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You went with two friends, colleagues pointed by your Commanders, to a bank you had identified as a prospective target, being the NBS in Empangeni?  Correct?

LUCKY SITHOLE: As I mentioned earlier, the NBS had been suggested to me the same way as the two persons had been handed over to me.  Commander Freza Shangasi had already done the reconnaissance at NBS.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, on page 2 of your written statement, Exhibit A, in paragraph 13, the last sentence you say there
"... I informed them (being your Commanders) of a suitable place to rob, which would be the NBS in Empangeni."
	Do you see that?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, I see it.  I would just say that that must have been a mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: It must have been a mistake in a document that you yourself say you did not think it necessary to amend, and it is a document in which we in fact affected amendments this morning?    Be that as it may, you say in the very document that you were provided with two recruits, presumably to assist you.  Were you people armed when you went to the bank?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, I was given two AK47s as well as a revolver.

CHAIRPERSON: You say according to the statement that you went there and saw that it was too well protected by security guards?  The result of which you decided that the job would be too risky and you abandoned the idea?  Am I correct?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was in command of that Unit when you went to the bank, you?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, I was the Commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, then you people left the NBS bank in Empangeni and proceeded to Mike's Kitchen in Empangeni?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It was then decided, or you decided  that you should steal this motor vehicle, a kombi parked outside, correct?

LUCKY SITHOLE: The kombi was robbed from its owners.

CHAIRPERSON: But you decided that that kombi had to be taken?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, I made the decision.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you decide that the kombi should be robbed?  Why didn't you go to another bank that was not so well protected?

LUCKY SITHOLE: It was not easy to proceed to another bank at which we had not done any reconnaissance.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you decide to steal or rob the people of the kombi?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I was running out of time to go back to Mozambique, and I decided that the kombi was ideal in that it would be used in exchange for the ammunition and firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, you had then opted for the alternative mode of payment for all those arms which was valued at R36 000 or a kombi?  Am I correct?

LUCKY SITHOLE: That is correct, because that was our agreement with Mr Antonio.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And thereafter you proceeded to Stanger with the intention of robbing a bottle store there, on the suggestion of one of your colleagues?  Correct?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, that is correct.  The suggestion had been made by myself, but the person who knew the area of where we could obtain that money, was Temba.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And you agreed with that, as Commander of that Unit?

LUCKY SITHOLE: Yes, I did say so because at that time, I realised that the vehicle must be shipped out of South Africa immediately, because if not, we would be in trouble with the law.

CHAIRPERSON: We will come to that later.   Did you know of the existence of this bottle store before it was suggested as a target, to you?

LUCKY SITHOLE: I didn't know the bottle store, but for the reason that Temba had studied at Ungoya and he was in the position to identify the bottle store ...