Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-12

MR MBANDAZAYO: Will I be correct to say that when he said go and attack those people and repossess, he may have been meaning that you kill those people, you go and kill them. It may have been the meaning of the word attack.

MR LEBEA: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.  It may include killing.

MR MBANDAZAYO: But of course you decided not to carry out the killing.

MR LEBEA: That is correct Chairperson, it happened that we did not kill them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I'll move to those points I wanted to cover.  I don't know whether I may do it.

CHAIRPERSON: You do it the way ...(indistinct - other noise and not speaking into microphone)...(end of tape)

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...(beginning of tape) by the police?

MR LEBEA: I would say so, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Also did you see how much you managed to get there?  The money, did you count the money?

MR LEBEA: I was not able to count the money.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And also you cannot be in a position to say whether that money was ...(indistinct) that was taken from the farm.  You cannot be in a position to say?

MR LEBEA: ...(no reply)

MR MBANDAZAYO: You were also asked about the question of a report and I understand that you did not report, or give any report about the incident, am I correct?

MR LEBEA: Which report?

MR MBANDAZAYO: About the whole operation.  You were given an order to go and attack and repossess and you were injured and you were taken to hospital and I understand you were arrested in hospital.  You did not manage to give any report to your Commander.

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson, I was not able to give a report about the whole operation.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, could I perhaps ask something for clarity?  Did you ever in your life meet Mr Mphahlele?

MR LEBEA: Excuse me?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Have you ever in your life met Mr Mphahlele?

CHAIRPERSON: What he means is have you met Letlapa Mphahlele?

MR LEBEA: Yes, I did, Chairperson.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you report anything to him at any stage?

MR LEBEA: No, Chairperson I did not give him a report about this operation.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You see I can't understand why you at a stage said you did report to him if you've never reported anything to him.

MR LEBEA: What I said at that particular time I was not in a stable condition.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Ja but even if you're not in a stable condition, you're not dreaming about things that would never have happened.  Perhaps if you're not in a stable condition something comes through that in fact happened.

MR LEBEA: What I would explain Chairperson is that Mr Mphahlele knew about our operation and then I knew him as Happy Mphahlele.  I learned later when we were in detention that Happy is Mr Mphahlele.  He knew about our activities even though I did not give him a direct report because I was injured and again immediately after this incident we were arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lebea, when you say he knew about your activities, when did he know about this?  We are talking of a short period here.  15th to the 10th of February.  15th of January to the 10th of February.  When did he come to know about that?

MR LEBEA: Themba Ncapai told us that Mr Mphahlele knew about the activities.  He informed us that Happy, a person known as Happy knew about our activities.

CHAIRPERSON: When who told you that this Happy whom you knew then was subsequently Mphahlele?

MR LEBEA: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: This person whom Themba Ncapai said he's Happy and he knows about your activities, this Happy, when did you come to know that that man is Mphahlele?  When did you come to know about that?

MR LEBEA: When I was in detention.

CHAIRPERSON: But if I recall your evidence, you were never visited by your APLA comrades, hence they couldn't lend help in that you should obtain legal representation because of this non contact.  How did you learn about that?

MR LEBEA: I knew later in 1993, 1994, 1995.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not detained then, you were sentenced, you were serving a sentence, you were not detained.  You were sentenced in November 1991.  1993 you were serving your sentence, 8 years.  Wouldn't I be correct?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What did they say this Mphahlele is within the APLA structures?

MR LEBEA: Excuse me?

CHAIRPERSON: What position, what portfolio did this Mphahlele, this Happy whom you subsequently knew to be Mphahlele, what position within APLA or the PAC was he holding?

MR LEBEA: He was a Director of Operations, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That was told you when you were serving your sentence?

MR LEBEA: I was told about Happy before, before I was arrested, even before I did this operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's make it simpler.  We know that Themba Ncapai said to you:  "Happy knows about your activities."

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And let's put them in perspective, your activities, because you executed one operation which was not successful in the sense that you were incarcerated thereafter.

MR LEBEA: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And the person or the informant who came back to you and said:  "You know that person whom Themba said is Happy, is Mphahlele."  Who said that?

MR LEBEA: The person who informed me that Happy is Mphahlele, I think it is Pati.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you meet him?

MR LEBEA: That is PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, Sir, the question is very simple.  Where did you meet him?

MR LEBEA: What I'm saying is this.  The person who informed me that Happy is Letlapa Mphahlele is Oupa.

CHAIRPERSON: But why don't you want to answer my question Sir?  I say where did you meet this person who told you that this person referred to as Happy is actually Mphahlele?  I say I want to know where you met the person.

MR LEBEA: I met him before we went to conduct this operation.

CHAIRPERSON: So you did not know in 1993?  Yes, then it was not in 1993, would I be correct?  I want you to assist us, we don't know what you knew and what you didn't know.  We are sorry about that Mr Mbandazayo, we high-jacked, if we may put it that way, your re-examination.  We apologise.  We might have derailed you in the process but do accept our apologies.  You may continue.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.  Well luckily you've covered some of the points I wanted to cover.  You made my job easier.  Thank you.  Where I was going to, I was asking you about the report.  You were arrested and you could not make a report.  We understand that, you were in prison, you were in hospital and you were arrested.  Now whilst you were in prison you were visited by, am I correct, where there any APLA members who visited you?

MR LEBEA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, it seems as if we are back to the problem we had before lunch with the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lebea, we would want you to testify and answer to questions when you are in your full mental capacities and what I want to know from you, because we will grant you a short adjournment that you recollect yourself or if you are under medication that you do take your medication, but could we now get it from you about how long should we adjourn for so that you may just recover or your can whisper that to your attorney.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson he would like at least 10 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll be generous and grant you 15.  We'll be back at half past three.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Lebea, how do you feel?

MR LEBEA: I'm a little bit better Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I believe one of our technicians told me that you have problems with these earphones but you did indicate to him that you do understand English even though you would prefer to answer in Sotho, would he be correct?

MR LEBEA: That is correct, Chairperson.