Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:   What I can say is that those knives I saw them later, after they were in the possession of Schutte.  I don't know where he took them to, but after - that was after five months.

WILSON J: Are you sure it was only afterwards, and not before?

MR DE JAGER: Mr Marais, did perhaps during the interval, or at any stage, did your client complain about the interpretation?  Can he follow what's going on?

MR MARAIS: Mr Chairman, I did not discuss it with him since he was giving his evidence at that stage, and I did not think it proper to talk to him about his evidence.  He did not come to me about it in any way.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mshe, are there any questions which you wish to put to this witness?

MR MSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR MSHE: QUESTIONED BY MR MSHE

MR MSHE: In your application, referred to on page 4, indexing of page 4, it is written in paragraph (iv) - you say,

MR MSHE: "On orders of our commander, Captain Dirk Coetzee, Almond Nofomela, Joe Mamasela, Brian Ngulungwa and I abducted

MR MSHE: /"Mr Griffiths

MR MSHE: "Mr Griffiths Mxenge at his home and took him to the Umlazi Stadium."

MR MSHE: Is that correct?

WITNESS:   Yes, it is true.

MR MSHE: Is your evidence not that you abducted him when he was on his way home, where you parked your car in such a way as if you had a problem with it?

WITNESS:   Well, it is true that we abducted him on the way.

MR MSHE: So it is not true that you took him from his home.

WITNESS:   No, we didn't fetch him from home.  I didn't say that.  It was close to home.

MR MSHE: Now, how long before the murder were the dogs poisoned?  How many days before the murder?

WITNESS:   I can't say exactly because the involvement of dogs and the like I was not involved there.

MR MSHE: Ja, but you knew that the dogs were to be poisoned, you knew that dogs were poisoned.

WITNESS:   Yes, I just heard about it later on.  Then when I looked at it afterwards, although I am not very sure of what I am saying, whether it was after some time.  It could have been after three days or so.

MR MSHE: Now, can you tell us the total number of days that you people spent in Durban before you could murder Mr Mxenge?

WITNESS:   Could you repeat your question please.

MR MSHE: The total number of days that you people spent in Durban before you could kill Mxenge.

WITNESS:   Well, I am not sure, as I did say.  It could have been three or four days.  I am not sure about that.

MR MSHE: It still could have been eight or nine days?

WITNESS:  That is also a possibility.  I am not too sure.  I am not really sure as to how long.

MR MSHE: In Evidence Book 3 that was given to your lawyers

MR MSHE: /yesterday

MR MSHE: yesterday - page 28 thereof, Mr Chairman and Members of the Committee - page 28 thereof.  This is an extract from the Harms Commission.  I am going to read what is said by the Harms Commission in as far as the wounds are concerned.  I want you to confirm whether that is true.  That will be the third paragraph, Mr Chairman, the paragraph starting,

MR MSHE: "A proper autopsy was performed on Mxenge's body.  The deceased had 45 lacerations."

MR MSHE: Would you say that is possible?

WITNESS:   Well, I can't deny that.

MR MSHE: "All of these were knife wounds ..."

MR MSHE: ---   Yes, indeed.

MR MSHE: "... except the wounds to the head, which had been inflicted with a blunt instrument such as a hammer."

MR MSHE: All right.  The last sentence of that paragraph reads,

MR MSHE: "The salient aspects of the murder are that:  (1) Mxenge's throat was literally cut off."

MR MSHE: Would you dispute that?

WITNESS:   Well, I might say so in that.

MR MSHE: Who did the cutting off of the throat?

WITNESS:   Well, as I said before I can't remember exactly whether it was Almond or Joe Mamasela.

MR MSHE: At what stage did you see the throat cut?

WITNESS:   Well, what I am saying is when he had fallen down there was a time in which the people were still on top of him, and I can't say exactly how the cutting took place.  He was - that's also the same regarding the holes, because we

MR MSHE: /didn't see

MR MSHE: didn't see what happened thereafter.

MR MSHE: Would you say that it's possible that at the time when the throat was cut off this man was already dead?

WITNESS:   Well, I am not really sure about that.

MR MSHE: But you agree that the cutting of the throat would have been done as the last thing after the stabbings, several stabbings, when he was on the ground?

WITNESS:   Yes, I believe that.

MR MSHE: And the next point,

MR MSHE: "His stomach was cut open."

MR MSHE: ---   Well, I can't deny anything.  I am saying after that I didn't see what happened, or even the following day or in the morning or something.

MR MSHE: Sorry, for that.  Could you repeat?

WITNESS:   What I am saying is as far as you are saying I can't say I really deny, because I didn't see him thereafter.  I didn't look at him physically thereafter as to how much suffering he suffered, or the holes and other things.

MR MSHE: Mr Tshikalanga, I find this funny, because one of the learned Committee Members read out to you your evidence in the Harms Commission, where you stated that you were an onlooker.  Do you remember that?

WITNESS:   Well, you mean being an onlooker, just a mere onlooker?

MR MSHE: Looker, onlooker, a person standing and looking at what was happening.

WITNESS:   Well, it's not true.  It's not true, because as I have said I also stabbed him, because that is when the knife remained there.  I was really involved in that.

MR MSHE: Well, let's go a little bit back.  Your knife got stuck on his chest, and when you were asked by one of the Committee Members whether you took Nofomela's knife you

MR MSHE: /said no.

MR MSHE: said no.  Do you remember that?

WITNESS:   I don't remember that.

MR MSHE: After your knife got stuck on his chest, you couldn't pull it out, what did you do?

WITNESS:   Well, I realised that the person who died, or the late, or the deceased, tried by all means to take the knife out of the chest, but then he was also struggling, and I went to the other side as he was pushing this side, because he wanted to stab whosoever was before him.

MR MSHE: You have not answered my question.  Your knife got stuck, you couldn't pull it out.  What did you do thereafter?  Did you stand there and look at him, or did you go to anything or do any other thing after the knife got stuck there?

WITNESS:   Well, I stepped aside.  I didn't do any other thing after that.

MR MSHE: Is it correct that you stood there and looked at what was happening?

WITNESS:   Yes, because - well, could you allow me to explain briefly again?  What happened was when I did stab him, and it got stuck, he tried by himself - we mean the deceased now.  He tried to take the knife out of his chest, and after having done that he was coming straight to us.  Well, what I did was to run away, and the same happened to Almond.

MR MSHE: You know, you're not answering my question.  Now are you saying you ran away?

WITNESS:   Yes, truly.

MR MSHE: Did you leave your friends on the scene continuing with the stabbing?

WITNESS:   Well, I am not saying that I ran quite far.  It could have been from here to the place where the audience is.

MR MSHE: Just let's make this thing simple.  What did you do?

WITNESS:   Well, I didn't do any other thing other than having

MR MSHE: /stabbed

MR MSHE: stabbed him once, the knife got stuck.

MR MSHE: And after the knife got stuck you became an onlooker, not so?

WITNESS:   I was never involved again after that.

MR MSHE: So you were in a position to see and witness what your friends were doing on him as you were standing there and doing nothing again.

WITNESS:   Yes, I might say so.

MR MSHE: Now, it continues that,

MR MSHE: "An ear was practically cut off."

MR MSHE: Would you dispute that?

WITNESS:   Well, I can't deny that, although I haven't see that physically clearly.