Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-13

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I have conceded that in the beginning.

MR PRETORIUS: Furthermore none of the guards on the corner of King George and Plein Street were injured, is that correct?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: None of the guards were injured at all, not only those who were at the corner.  None of the guards were injured.

MR PRETORIUS: Then to formulate it correctly, the ballistics prove that therefore, that no bullets were fired by the marchers in the direction of the guards in the position on the corner of King George and Plein Street, is that correct?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I think I have conceded to the fact that there was no bullets fired at that corner, the ballistics says that, I agree with the ballistics, I have said in my application for amnesty that the objective evidence I cannot dispute.

MR PRETORIUS: But then again, Mr Zuma, when you testified you said that the decisive thing that caused you to open fire was the fire shot in your direction, that is in the position of King George and Plein Street?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Maybe let me put it this way, I'm saying the shot, the man with an AK fired a shot in our direction.  That is what I believe, still today, but due to the fact that - I mean that is not what I believe, that's what I can recollect of the picture as to what happened that day but having facts before me by the medical report and the ballistics, then I say I concede, I cannot dispute that fact.  The man might have fired in a different direction.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Zuma, just so that I understand you quite correctly.  If there wasn't a man with an AK47 that fired in your direction, there wouldn't have been any reason for you to shoot at the marchers?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I couldn't find any reason why I would have shot.

MR PRETORIUS: Then I put it to you Mr Zuma that there in fact wasn't as such a man, there wasn't a man with an AK47 in the front of the crowd that shot in your direction, there in fact was no attack and you shot at the marchers without any reason?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Well you've got it wrong.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, I do not want to delve on this point any further, I just want to put it to the witness that he has been proven wrong and that I will argue that in due course on behalf of the objectors.
	During the morning of the 28th March 1994 when you arrived at Shell House, did Gary Kruser have a briefing with the guards?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Yes he did.

MR PRETORIUS: What did he tell the guards during this meeting or briefing?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: He said people should be on the alert and they should deploy around Shell House in order to protect the building because there's information that the IFP might attack Shell House.

MR PRETORIUS: Did he use the word "information" or what word did he use?

CHAIRPERSON: To ask him at this stage to give you a word by word account is that really fair?

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, I asked this specifically in view of the evidence that this witness gave on a previous occasion, that is in front of Judge Nugent, there is a specific word that this witness used and I want to know which is not the word "information" and which is of utmost importance.  That is why I'm asking this witness this question particularly.

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I might have put it differently to Judge Nugent but I'm putting it, I think even if I might have put it differently, but I'm saying that was - he said it's information that he received that the ANC might use this march as - to attack Shell House - but you see I cannot quote word for word what a person said four years ago, I think that you must appreciate.

MR PRETORIUS: The reason why I'm asking you is, Mr Zuma, that you explained previously that Mr Kruser said there were rumours about an attack on Shell House and I want to put it to you that that is exactly what he said to you?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Rumours can be information, if there are lots of rumours they become information so I put it there before Judge Nugent but I think, you see you mustn't think that I'm going say what I said in front of Judge Nugent word for word, I cannot do that - I'm not a tape recorder.

MR PRETORIUS: I do not expect that of you, Mr Zuma, but I'm also putting it to you that it was of no consequence to you or it didn't matter to you because when you testified now exactly when I asked you what caused you to shoot, you never even mentioned that.  It wasn't something that was in your mind, a reason to shoot at the marchers?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: That cannot be the reason for shooting because most of the marchers did pass Shell House, we did not shoot them and you must ask yourself why, so you can't now say that was one of the reasons we used for shooting.  We knew that there was this information but we could not use the information to shoot people when they have done anything and really I think you do expect me to go word for word because you are trying to trick me with the words like "rumour" and "information".  I can't give word for word what I gave to Judge Nugent.  I can give you the picture, I can give you the information and the answers that I gave but it won't be similar word, chapter and verse.

MR PRETORIUS: Just as a matter of fact, that very morning you - I don't want to use the escort - because what happened is you drove approximately ten or fifteen minutes before or left Mr Sisulu's house approximately fifteen minutes before he did because you drove into Shell House to make sure that it is safe and then you radioed Mr Sisulu or the persons with him to inform that it is safe, he can come in to town and into Shell House, is that correct?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Our radio didn't have radius that can reach Soweto.  I said in my statement we were the advance party, maybe to put it in simpler terms, we were the escort vehicle, the vehicle that moves ahead of the convoy, we'll communicate with the convoy as we go along the route.  It was not a question of us reaching Shell House and then telling them that they should come.

MR PRETORIUS: In any event, you were in the advance group and you regarded it safe for the group of Mr Sisulu to come into town and into Shell House, that is what you conveyed then during the convey?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: We explained to them the route that we'd worked out is safe not to say whether he should come to Shell House or not.  The fact that - it was not a question whether he should come to Shell House or not, he had taken a decision.  I mentioned it in my statement if you can read it that Mr Sisulu had taken a decision that he wants to go to Shell House so ours is to protect him.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Zuma, I put it to you that the objectors never attacked Shell House nor did the marchers in front of them or whoever they were with, that they were shot unnecessarily without any reason at all by the guards including yourself.

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I don't agree with you.

MR PRETORIUS: I furthermore put it to you that you were untruthful with this Commission, you did not disclose the facts or the reasons why you shot at the objectors in so much as there was no attack by them at all?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: That is wrong, that is wrong - I have explained before the Commission, I've explained before the Judge in the inquest.  Whether the Judge takes - the inquest Judge - whether he takes - he took my evidence as reliable or not is a different question but I explained before the Judge the same thing that I'm explaining now.  So I find no reason why you are saying I didn't tell the truth now.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Pretorius, are you suggesting that because he is telling an untruth when he says the crowd attacked the Shell House therefore he has not disclosed to this Committee the reason for shooting the marchers?

MR PRETORIUS: Indeed, Honourable Member.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?