Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-03

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Sir, I don't want to agree with you.  I don't agree with you sir, that Jimmy Jones said when we were arrested, when we were in prison, Wellington at Umtata, he said that we must implicate dead people.
	He could not say that we must implicate dead people, because he did not know that we were going to be arrested, and what we were arrested for there, was not connected to these things at East London.  We were arrested for something else that we were not involved in there.

MR PRIOR: Why did you not simply say ...

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry Paddy, you are right, it wasn't Jimmy Jones.  I thought I heard mention of Patricia de Lille and some other, as a general policy, PAC leadership, I will just put it that way, that the idea was that you implicate dead people, rather than people who was still alive, that did come through in your evidence in chief.
	The source we may dispute, but that is the impression you left me with certainly yesterday.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That we must, members of the PAC must implicate dead people?

ADV GCABASHE: Yes.  I thought it was a policy position in a  sense that the PAC as an organisation in a sense, has taken, that is the impression I was left with.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: If it took that decision, it did not reach me.  And further, if it said we must implicate dead people in all the operations that were undertaken by soldiers, it would be lying to the TRC.  It would be easy for it, but it would be lying at the TRC.
	While at the TRC is meant for the truth and reconciliation.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, there is some confusion here.  Patricia de Lille and the instruction that you are referring to, came very much later in the process.  It was round about the time that the amnesty applications were pending, and you were asking for lawyers and all that sort of thing.

CHAIRPERSON: What you in fact said, according to my notes, is that you phoned Patricia de Lille who told you not to fill in forms until you were told to.
	That she told you Mr Ntonga and Mr Bandazayo will tell you when, but that they never arrived.  That you were told that they were at other prisons.  You then went on to say that Mr Mbanyoa came from King William's Town and helped you to fill in forms.  You filled in those forms, lying sometimes.
	You were told not to implicate people who were alive, but to name dead people.  You were told this by Jimmy Jones, Bandazayo and Bayeti.

ADV GCABASHE: That is correct Judge, I found the note as well.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Yes, that is what I said too.

MR LAX: Sorry, in the light of that, I am obviously mistaken about the earlier portion where you met Jimmy Jones in Wellington, so obviously I withdraw that, I am sorry.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is acceptable.

MR PRIOR: Why did you implicate your co-accused at that stage, Mr Ncamazana?  Why did you falsely implicate him?  If you wanted to diminish your role, why didn't you simply say I was outside, and I didn't know who did the shooting?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Sir, firstly, I did not know what Mr Ncamazana had told the Police, because he was the first to be arrested before me.  Secondly, I said from the beginning, by lying about dead people, is not an easy matter to me to do.

MR PRIOR: And lying about living people, people that are living, your comrade in arms, your co-accused who was going through the same situation as yourself, you found it easy to lie about him on a very serious matter, that he killed people at Bahai?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Sir, I said from the beginning the time I was arrested, I was not pleasing any other person, I was trying to protect myself, trying to diminish my guilt.

MR PRIOR: Do you agree that it could have been just as easy for you to say that you were outside the church, you didn't see who did the shooting, you could have said that, and that would have also diminished your participation and your guilt?  Do you agree with that?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: It was not easy to me sir, I do not agree with you.

MR PRIOR: I move on to 14(i), that is of the bundle, where you go on to say when you left Bahai Church to go to Butterworth, and there you reported to Jimmy Jones.  Is it correct that Jimmy Jones had indicated to Kid, TNT and the others, that they had not supposed to take you with presumably on that mission?  Is that correct?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Jimmy Jones never said such a thing.  That we went to report to Mr Jimmy Jones after the Bahai incident, is a fact.

MR PRIOR: But that he had difficulty with the fact that you had been taken along, you say that is not true?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No, that is not true.

MR PRIOR: Why would you mention that in your confession, in the statement that I am referring to, why was it necessary to include that portion, or that information?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: As I have said sir, at the time I was making this statement, I was not thinking about other people, I thought about my own case, trying to diminish my guilt.
	And to, so that the Police could think I was saying the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: So you immediately thereafter went on to say and that I must hand over my smoke grenade, which I did.  So you were indicating to the Police that you were armed, is that so?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Yes, I explained that I too had a smoke grenade, not a hand grenade.

MR PRIOR: Thank you.  Isn't the truth of the matter, that when you reported to Jimmy Jones, he was actually taken aback, he was very surprised that this operation at Bahai had been carried out, in fact, he reprimanded your unit?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No sir.  That is not true, I was only lying to the Police.

ADV SANDI: When you told that lie, what were you wanting to gain?   People tell lies in order to gain something, what specifically were you wanting to gain when you told that particular lie?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I was lying to the Police, trying to diminish my guilt so that I cannot be sentenced, if there is such a necessity or I get a shorter sentence.

MR PRIOR: You see Mr Mbambo, again I am just puzzled by your approach.
	In your evidence in chief, you would have us believe that you were such a firm cadre, you were willing to die rather be captured, and you would have killed your own comrades, rather than let them be captured.
	You gave us the view, the impression of such a staunch person and yet, here you are, and your only intention is to cover your own skin.  Your comrades are forgotten, your movement is forgotten, your political party is forgotten.  You are just interested in yourself?  Please explain this to us.

ZUKILE MBAMBO: You see sir, that is true that at the court I was very certain about me being a soldier, prepared that instead of Africans being arrested, it is better that they be killed, since they were injured.
	Even here sir, it is not that I have dropped my comradeness or I am prepared to sacrifice my organisation, it was never like that.  At the court, or at the Police, there was a person who was already arrested, I don't think it was one, it was two.
	And I had heard the reasons or the reasons why they were arrested, and it was something wrong that led to their arrest, that was against the organisation.
	That is why I was speaking the way I did.  It is not because I had left or dropped my organisation.

MR PRIOR: What led to your arrest, or their arrest?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: The reason for their arrest was that they did something wrong by lying to the person who had left a gun to keep for us.  They left and came here, June 16, 1994, and came and lied at that person, saying that Jimmy Jones had said they must be given that gun.
	Lying all the time, not having been instructed to do that.  They went and used that gun illegally at Beaufort West, and were arrested for that gun, that is why the cases by Highgate Hotel, Da Gama and Nahoon Dam got exposed.

MR PRIOR: And these people were your co-applicant and others?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is so.