Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-01-31

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I think to a certain extent you have answered my question.  Now the good relations that Holomisa had with the liberation movements was not taken kindly by the South African Government during that period, is that not correct?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, that is correct because I heard about that.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact the South African Government was assisting Col Duli in getting rid of the Holomisa government through your actions.  Do you agree with me?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I did not see that, I'm not going to agree with you because I did not see what you are saying.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, but it's actually correct that Col Duli was working with the South African Government, the South African Government was aiding him in getting rid of the Holomisa government.  Were you not aware of that throughout up to this moment?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: That was a very clever man, I was not aware of that, not at all.

MR MAPOMA: When did you become at aware, if at all you did become aware, that Col Duli was working with the South African Government when he was conducting the aborted coup?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I don't have evidence of that, even now I'm surprised of how he managed to do that.

JUDGE MILLER: Have you ever heard of it before?  Have you heard it said that the South African Government were assisting him in his endeavours to overthrow the Transkei Government?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: No, I did not see or hear anything about that.  Since he was arrested in Queenstown I saw that there was no-one protecting him or helping him.

JUDGE MILLER: But I mean even now recently, haven't you heard that?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: No, I haven't heard.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Ntisana, I want to suggest to you Sir, that the main objective of that coup, aborted coup, the main political objective was to restore the status quo which existed during the Matanzima era, vis-a-vis the political activities that were taking place in Transkei.  That is getting in Transkei a government which was going to work hand-in-hand with the South African Government to curb the terrorists in this part of South Africa.  What do you say to that?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I wouldn't know because the government I was serving under was Nkosazana Stella Sigcau's government.

MR MAPOMA: Who are those paramount chiefs that you identified as chiefs who were going to be coopted into the intended interim government?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: They were not going to be in the interim government, but they would call the Transkeian people so that the people can appoint the interim cabinet.  It was the paramount chiefs from Emampondweni, two of them, Mxalega and two from Themboland and the king from Maluti, Mzimkhulu, Emboland and Fingoland, according to the regions of the Transkei.

MR MAPOMA: But if I'm not mistaken, if you will correct me if I'm wrong, you spoke of four chiefs, who are these four chiefs?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Maybe I didn't count properly.  Even now I did not count how many there are.  There is no paramount chief in Maluti and Fingoland and in Herschel there's no paramount chief and in Emboland there's no paramount chief.

MR MAPOMA: No, what I want to find out Sir is, who are these chiefs that you had in mind to be coopted into your government?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: We did not pick them by names, but because I knew all the regions would have a chief that would represent the region.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma.  Has the Panel got any questions?

JUDGE MILLER: Did you become a member of parliament when the Sigcau government, Ms Sigcau became Prime Minister?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: That is correct.

JUDGE MILLER: You weren't one before, during the governments of the Matanzimas?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: We became members after Chief George Matanzima.

JUDGE MILLER: How long have you been a member of the Tsitina party?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: From the 1980s.

JUDGE MILLER: The radio that you were using when you were driving - you said that you communicated with Col Duli with a radio, where did you get that radio from?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: He had radios with him - Mr Craig Duli.  He had radios with him.

JUDGE MILLER: Did he give you a radio?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, there was a radio with me in the car.

JUDGE MILLER: And are you still saying Mr Ntisana, that you've never heard of the allegation, even of it being said that Col Duli received arms from the South African Security Forces, through Eugene de Kock?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I only read that from the newspapers, but I cannot give evidence on that because I never saw him speaking to any white person.

JUDGE MILLER: And you don't know the route that Col Duli took to get into Transkei that night, the 21st November?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: No, not at all.  I wouldn't have sacrificed my car and the car that he borrowed from me to go to Kofinvaba.  I saw that on TV.

JUDGE MILLER: Did you ever have meetings with Mr Mbotoli regarding the changing of government in Transkei?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: No.

JUDGE MILLER: And the previous two applicants who testified this morning, that's Messrs Gumengu and Nombanga, did you come across them at all during that period?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I saw Gumengu in Johannesburg, but I did not know him but he knew me.

JUDGE MILLER: Did you talk with him?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: No, we didn't say anything to each other.

JUDGE MILLER: Do you have any comment on what you heard this morning, that he was at all times, had infiltrated your group?  When I say your group I mean the persons involved in the planning of the coup.

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I was surprised when he said what he said.

JUDGE MILLER: Because you must have got to know him quite well, you were co-accused in the trial weren't you, and that trial lasted for a long, long time.

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, I know him because we were together in jail and Mr Nombanga was also in jail.

JUDGE MILLER: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: Under what circumstances did you see Gumengu in Johannesburg, did you attend a meeting with him?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: We met in the street.  They came to me, I had a problem, my car broke down and they told me that they were from the Transkei.

MR SIBANYONI: Insofar as the intended coup is concerned, at least you knew that the paramount chief will be called as well as the judge will be called to ask the other chiefs to take custody of Transkei, is that so?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, I knew that, I knew that those were the intentions.

MR SIBANYONI: And did those chiefs know that they will be asked to take custody of Transkei?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: No, they did not know.

MR SIBANYONI: And at what stage were you supposed to use the tapes which you had in your custody?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: After Col Duli gave out the instruction that everything was under control those tapes were going to be used.

MR SIBANYONI: And then the districts you are talking about are quite vast if I'm not mistaken, how would those chiefs be summonsed, be called together?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I once asked that question but he said that in all the regions there were easy ways, maybe they could go to the police station and they would find out about that after everything was done.

MR SIBANYONI: Now in 1992, the political atmosphere was quite different here in South Africa, including the homelands, it was obvious that there would be general elections where everybody would take part, there would be no military councils or military juntas, was it any political ... to try to get hold or to take over Transkei from Gen Holomisa?  Or was it just a power struggle between you people residing in that area?