Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-09

MARY BURTON: I just wanted to go back a little bit and establish some of the days and times of this incident that happened to you.  You mentioned to us at the beginning the date of 1982.  But as I understand it, it was at that time that you went to live in New Crossroads, but the things that happened; the taking of you and putting you in a container, that was in 1986, is that right?

WINIFRED NKOSI: Yes, that is so.

MARY BURTON: And you also said at the beginning that you knew those containers, because they were there for the church. Was I right to hear that?  The containers that were (indistinct).

WINIFRED NKOSI: No, I do not know about those containers how they got there. I knew Nkola and Zameli, because I used to attend meetings there. I was locked in a very small container which was not fit to be used as a church.  I don't know what the purpose of their being there, what they were being used for, but there was a row of them, because I wasn't a resident there. I used to just go there at certain times.

MARY BURTON: The containers were quite near this bigger building which you have referred to as a charge office?

WINIFRED NKOSI: Yes.

MARY BURTON: But that was the Nkola building, is that right?

WINIFRED NKOSI: Yes.

MARY BURTON: It used to be the primary school and was now being used for a charge office and to keep people?

WINIFRED NKOSI: No, Nxolo was the school.  The charge office - Nkola is a school. And the charge office I was taken to is next to Nxolo, next to a project called Nkola health project.

MARY BURTON: Yes. And the police, you mentioned police persons.  Now were they police or were they police in the same way as the charge office was not an official charge office. Were these police people from the area?  Not official policemen?

WINIFRED NKOSI: I am not going to say these were not policemen. I am not going to say these were not policemen, you know, in the legal sense of police, because they were called police and they had guns.  That is why I am only saying they were just dirty policemen.

MARY BURTON: That was another question I wanted to ask, is about the guns.  You also mentioned bodyguards who had weapons.

WINIFRED NKOSI: Yes, yes, there were, there were.

MARY BURTON: And did you see what weapons they were?

WINIFRED NKOSI: There were guns and the big knives that are used in the butcheries.   I did see an assegaai, I saw an assegaai but the things that were used pointed at me, it was a big knife and a gun.

MARY BURTON: And then afterwards, after you had been released after these days of being held in the container and you were taken to Mr Mbongwane's wife's house, did you need any medical treatment after that?

WINIFRED NKOSI: No, no, I didn't get any medical treatment. I didn't get any medical treatment, I only, when I returned home, I only went for medical treatment.  I only went to the doctor when I was returned to my house, because I didn't feel very well, because the wound on my knee had some glass splinters and I wasn't feeling well. So I went to a doctor.  I just want to apologise, because Mrs Burton, you must forgive me, my memory about dates and years is not very clear.  That 1982 I was estimating, you know, because when you struggled at 28 and then you go, you struggle at 60, your memory goes bad, because even then I used to go to restorations and Black Sash. There are so many things, but my memory is not that good.

MARY BURTON: I understand that, Mrs Nkosi, it is quite a long time ago.  But we are fortunate because there are records from the time, there are newspaper reports and our researchers and our investigators have fitted all those dates together. So we have no doubt about your story. We know that it happened, it is confirmed by other evidence from the time.  But it has been very important for us to hear in your own words about your experience, about the humiliation that you suffered by being kept in that container and not allowed toilet facilities and not properly looked after. For no reason at all, except that you had helped to organise the women, that you had demanded a voice for the women of the area and that you had helped to instruct some of the young members of the community. So you are a reminder of some of the strong women who were working in the area at the time, and you helped us to put together the whole picture of what was happening. I don't have any other questions right now.  So I hand over to the Chairperson and see if there are other questions.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you, Mary Burton.  Glenda has a question, Glenda next to me.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Mrs Nkosi, I just have one question and that is those policemen you are referring to, were they known as Amanzilomzi?

WINIFRED NKOSI: No, that time, at that particular time they were just saying police, police. I didn't, they were just mr police, I didn't hear the word Amanzilomzi, I don't know exactly what their functions were.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Thank you very much.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I just have short questions.  You said that - people please bring the noise to a very, very low level.  There is some noise coming out from the audience.  You said when you were detained there were some gentlemen who said you must be released because Mbongwane would kill them.  Can you tell us why they wanted to release you because they are scared of Mbongwane?  Did you have some working relationship with Mbongwane?

WINIFRED NKOSI: Just quickly, just briefly.  I worked with Mbongwane when I was staying at Unibel.  Just after Mr Guys left the chair.  Because of the situation, the bad situation in Crossroads, because in that time, in 1976, our kids, my kids were very involved in the struggle. So I was (indistinct). So I got to know the community. No, I was not a committee member at the time, it was just the people. I met people like Memani and I used to call him Max and then I discussed this issue of the fighting between the killings and the fighting. Then I would meet Mr - I used to see them carrying newspapers, not knowing when they ever read it, but that is when I got to know them.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Before, I just want get this thing clear. You mean, initially Mbongwane was working with members of the community?

WINIFRED NKOSI: Yes, he did, because even the establishment, he was a member in the struggle like in the WCCA and we asked his co-operation, and he was always co-operating with us.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I just wanted to clarify that. Thank you.  Secondly, you mentioned Yamane's name.  What was Yamane's role in the community, just briefly.  Ja, Yamile, sorry, the name is Yamile.

WINIFRED NKOSI: The name is Yamile, he was an organiser, he was a very active organiser, organising women on the section called (indistinct).  When there was something positive to be established by women, they would invite us as to explain to the women what was happening.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So he was on the side of the protesting organisations, you would say.

WINIFRED NKOSI: Yes.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Now at the time you are in the container, what was his role, Mr Yamile?

WINIFRED NKOSI: Mr Yamile at that time, he was still, he was also - he had also run away, because he was being sought after by the police.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: We will ask Mary to conclude and so call the next witness before her concluding remarks.  Over to you, Mary.