Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1988-01-19

MS JACOBS: They said to us were are amongst those who were state witnesses but we didn't appear in court.  Others, they'd ...[indistinct] but they said we - I was one of the state witnesses against Oupa.

MR STANDER: Why did you lose your sight?

MS JACOBS: I was shot by the police.

MR STANDER: You don't know who it was, am I right?

MS JACOBS: No, they were ...[inaudible] policemen.

MR STANDER: Can you remember when that was?

MS JACOBS: It was on the 21st of March 1990.

MR STANDER: I have no further questions to this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, Visser on record.  We have the same difficulty here, this is brand new evidence about this particular person and we didn't have an affidavit of her either.  We would need to just get some instructions Mr Chairman.

MR DU PLESSIS: We have no questions Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any questions?

ADV MEMANI: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman, I did not hear your response to Mr Visser.

CHAIRPERSON: He stood down.  We then dealt with Mr du Plessis.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.
	Now Ms Jacobs, you told us how you were assaulted and interrogated presumably on the 6th of April 19 - was it '85/'86?

MS JACOBS: 1986.

ADV MEMANI: And we were told by Mr Motsamai that people were interrogated on one floor and at a later stage they were taken to another floor where they were interrogated by fairly senior policemen who were specialising with MK.
	Has that been interpreted?
Now, is it your recollection that you were taken to one floor and then to a floor higher?

MS JACOBS: It depends.  I went to the room next door to the kitchen.  We were taken to various rooms but we occupied all the rooms, it depends which floor you were taken.

ADV MEMANI: And you do not have a clear recollection of how long you saw Mr Motsamai on that day?

MS JACOBS: I don't remember well because we were scared and all of us were assaulted, you wouldn't concentrate who was there.  The person whom I remember is Ngo whom I saw up till 6 o'clock.  All the rooms were occupied by us, by detainees.

ADV MEMANI: Those are my questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MEMANI

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chair, may I get instructions?

MR BRINK: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Am I correct in thinking that when you were removed from Fountain to that police station that you said, the Glen or something, were the ladies transported separately from the gentleman?

MS JACOBS: Yes, we were separated from the gentlemen or the boys.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So when you speak of being taken away from Fountain at about 10 o'clock in the evening, are you referring to the group of you young ladies only?

MS JACOBS: We young ladies were taken to the Glen during that night at 10 o'clock.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Ought the witness not to be perhaps informed that she would have attend again tomorrow Mr Chairman and the previous witness as well?
[no sound]

MR STANDER: There's still one witness Mr Chairman, Annie Phahlane.  Although I haven't been instructed by the legal aid board as far as she is concerned up to now, I'll take the time to lead her evidence and we can - if the legal board doesn't, I'll do it pro-amicably.
	I call then to the witness stand Annie Phahlane.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR STANDER: She will testify in South Sotho Mr Chair.

ANNIE PHAHLANE: (sworn states)

MR STANDER: Ms Phahlane, were you also one of the group of 19 who were arrested when you tried to skip the country on your way to Maseru?

ANNIE PHAHLANE: That is correct Sir.

MR STANDER: How old were you at that stage?

ANNIE PHAHLANE: I was around 18 years old.

MR STANDER: Which school did you attend?

ANNIE PHAHLANE: Vulamasango.

MR STANDER: Why did you try to skip the country?

ANNIE PHAHLANE: It's because of living without rest.  That is you have - something has been done, even though you were not present during that particular activity, the police would come and arrest you.  Then I thought it would be better if I skipped because I was not saying peacefully at home, then even at home I was chased away because they were tired of being knocked at by the police because of political activities.

MR STANDER: Of which political organisation were you a member at that stage?

ANNIE PHAHLANE: I was a member of COSAS.

MR STANDER: Tell me, after you were arrested at Ladybrand, where were you taken?

ANNIE PHAHLANE: We were taken to Ramkraal, we were not welcome and then we were taken to Park Road, we were not welcome again and then at Fountain we found the police waiting for us.

MR STANDER: Can you still remember who of these policemen were present?

ANNIE PHAHLANE: Yes.

MR STANDER: Can I put it to you this way ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I really - I should have objected to this, I didn't realise my learned friend was going to do it every time, he's leading the witness on the names of the two applicants and with great respect, it doesn't take for enhancing the credibility of his own witnesses and it's a leading question.
	He can just as well ask her for the names Mr Chairman and if she can't remember it then obviously you'll be in a better position to decide about her credibility.  I would really ask my learned friend not to lead all the witnesses on the names of people.

MR STANDER: Can you tell us which policemen were present when you were brought into Fountain Street?

ANNIE PHAHLANE: When we were there, there were many, even that we found them waiting outside waiting for us.

MR STANDER: Can you remember some of the names of some of the policemen who were there?

ANNIE PHAHLANE: Yes, that is true.

MR STANDER: Can you please give us these names?

ANNIE PHAHLANE: Do you mean the police whom I recognised and they were there?

MR STANDER: Correct, yes.

ANNIE PHAHLANE: Mamome, Motsamai, Ngo, Mr Tswametsi, Mr Erasmus, du Plooy, there were many, Meningwa was there, Melisi was there.

MR STANDER: ...[indistinct]

INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the last question.

ANNIE PHAHLANE: We were taken to Glen, we were taken inside the building, then we were taken to Glen at night when we were going to sleep.

MR STANDER: When you arrived at Fountain Street, where were you taken?

ANNIE PHAHLANE: We were taken inside, we went through the stairways, then we went to the kitchen, then from there they separated us to various places which we did not know.  Then when we arrived at the kitchen some of us were called to various rooms.

MR STANDER: Can you remember where  you were called?

ANNIE PHAHLANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STANDER: Can you tell us where?

ANNIE PHAHLANE: I was called by Mr Erasmus.  I returned later after he interrogated me, after he slapped me.  I went to the second room, I was slapped by Ngo and he was together with Motsamai and Meningwa.

MR STANDER: Were you only assaulted in this way on those two occasions?

ANNIE PHAHLANE: We were taken in many instances.  I think for a week or two weeks we were taken in the afternoon or in the morning and then they would assault us.  Even at Mr du Plooy I was taken to, he showed me various photos and asked my why was I able to try to skip because they tried to arrest me again.
	I was detained for three days after being arrested by other people who tried to skip the country. They said how did I go with those people whilst I was together with them previously then I ...[inaudible]

MR STANDER: Tell me, which policemen that you can remember were present or took part in the assault on you?

ANNIE PHAHLANE: Mr Erasmus and Ngo and Motsamai and Mamome.

MR STANDER: What did Erasmus do to you?