Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-04-21

MR BRINK: Was the handset cut from the two way radio?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

MR BRINK: You say you assured these policemen that you were not going to harm them, and they appeared to believe you?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

MR BRINK: Is it your evidence that there was no violence in that police station?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: That is my evidence sir.

MR BRINK: Were the two policemen man handled in any way?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: No sir.

MR BRINK: Was their clothing tugged?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: No sir.

MR BRINK: I have it from a Detective Sergeant Venter that buttons from the, apparently, fallen from the police uniforms of the two policemen, were found on the floor in the police station, do you dispute that?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I don't know about that sir.

MR BRINK: Did you or any of your companions write anything anywhere in the police station before you left?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir, I did write.

MR BRINK: What did you write?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I wrote APLA sir.

MR BRINK: Did you write anything else?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: No sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you write APLA?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I wrote so that they could be deceived, so that the police could not get any sort of direction as to who had committed the act.

CHAIRPERSON: That would give the police the idea that APLA did it, not so?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir, they would have thought that, however, as I said I was trying to deceive the police so that they could not get the right leads.

MR BRINK: Where did you write APLA?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: On a book that was on the counter, towards the wall.

MR BRINK: And also on the wall?  And also on the wall itself?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

MR BRINK: How many guns did you take from the police station?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: About 14 sir.

MR BRINK: Were the two policemen that you found in the police station, in fact armed, carrying their firearms on their hips?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: There was only one policeman that was armed sir, the other one was not armed.

MR BRINK: I take it he was disarmed?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

MR BRINK: And all the guns were loaded into the panel van, behind the driver and front passenger seat and in front of the rear passenger seat, is that correct?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: We put them behind sir.

MR BRINK: Behind what, could you clarify please?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Behind, at the back of the back seat, behind the back seat of the car.

INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises.

MR BRINK: Could we get absolute clarity and iron out any possible confusion.
	What kind of vehicle was this?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: It was a panel van.

MR BRINK: Do you mean by that a covered bakkie type truck, or a kombi type vehicle?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: It was a kombi.

MR BRINK: Is it your evidence then that all the firearms were in the rear of the vehicle, behind the furthest back passenger seat?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

MR BRINK: Save for those firearms with which you and your companions had armed yourselves, am I right?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Please repeat your question sir?

MR BRINK: Apart from those police guns which were retain on your person and the person of your companions?

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please repeat the question.

MR BRINK: All the guns were loaded in the very back of the vehicle, apart from those hand guns, police hand guns which you kept on your person, you and your companions?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

MR BRINK: How many rows of seats did this particular vehicle have?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: It was the driver seat and the passenger and one more behind the driver.

MR BRINK: You testified that you and Luyanda sat in the front?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Correct sir.

MR BRINK: Solomzi and Luzuko in the back.

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Correct sir.

MR BRINK: Where in relation to Solomzi and Luzuko were the policemen seated?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Solomzi was sitting next to the back window, they were all mixed up.

MR BRINK: Were all four men on the seat behind the front row, or where were they?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: No sir.

MR BRINK: Were all of the seats behind the front row, namely the driver's and the front passenger seat, occupied?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I was on the passenger seat, Luzuko was on the seat behind us and the driver was on his seat.

MR BRINK: Where were you headed with the policemen in the vehicle?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: We were just going to a destination where we could dump them, far off an obscure place.

MR BRINK: Did you not have a particular destination in mind?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: At that time sir, I am trying to say that we could not leave them within the South African borders, we then went towards the Transkeian side, the then Transkeian side.

MR BRINK: You say after taking the turn off to Bizana, the car started jerking, the vehicle began jerking?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

MR BRINK: But the trouble with the vehicle didn't cause it to break down, is that correct?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Correct sir.

MR BRINK: Did you have any suspicion in regard to what the problem with the vehicle was?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

MR BRINK: What did you think?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: We thought that it was the battery, sir, there was something wrong with the car battery.

MR BRINK: Is there any reason why you didn't mention vehicle trouble in your affidavit?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Please repeat your question sir.

MR BRINK: Is there any reason why you didn't mention the trouble with the vehicle, in your affidavit, in support of this application?

MR NOTUNUNU: Honourable Chair, I don't know if I could chip in here.
	The affidavit Honourable Chair, with respect, was drafted by myself and I don't know whether this could not then form part of his argument, when he argues that this was a material thing, because we did not say anything materiality in the jerking of the motor vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: You are partly right, but if in the event it does become material, then he wouldn't have been able to get an answer from the witness.
	If it is immaterial, then whatever answer he gives, is irrelevant, but like you correctly point out the material issue can only be decided later.

MR NOTUNUNU: Thank you Honourable Chair.

MR BRINK: Was it during the time that the vehicle was jerking, that you heard the gunshot go off?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you not want an answer to the previous question?

MR BRINK: I do.  I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman, I was distracted by preparing my next question, I will let it pass.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I am saying that you were asked about any particular reason why you did not mention the vehicle trouble in your affidavit.  Is there a particular reason or isn't there one?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: I did not think that it was that significant sir.

MR BRINK: Did you or any of your companions in any way attend or concentrate on this problem with the vehicle which had showed up?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.

MR BRINK: How?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: We looked at the engine to see what the problem was, that is when we realised that the wires to the battery had not been tightened properly.

MR BRINK: My understanding of your evidence was that it was during the time that the car was jerking, that you heard a gunshot and thereafter you stopped the vehicle?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Correct sir.

MR BRINK: Well, at what stage did you look under the bonnet?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: After there had been shootings between the police and ourselves as we were going back to the car to see our comrade who had been injured, to see to him.

MR BRINK: I am going to ask you to comment on the account given by your co-applicant, Luyanda Ntikinca.  I will read Mr Chairman and members of the Panel from page 58, from the second line.
	The car started to give us mechanical problems.  While we were concentrating on that, both policemen disarmed one member of our unit, guarding them.  They succeeded and shot him, they then ran away.
	Do you hear that?

MLUNGISI NYEMBEZI: Yes sir.