Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-09-14

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you Chairperson.  You have watched the video, is that the meeting which took place at the Trim Park?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: It appears to have been on the 2nd of April 1994?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: That was also your view before the video was shown, that the impression which you were under was that all addresses and speeches given, the prayer and the Bible reading was seen as preparation for warfare?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MR BRACHER: Can the witness not be led in that fashion?  I am complaining about the leading question that was just put to that witness, it was not a question at all, it was a statement to which he said yes about a critical matter here.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairperson, I led this evidence before the video and I am simply confirming it with regard to the video.  I don't know what Mr Bracher's contention is.

CHAIRPERSON: The influence which you were speaking of before we saw the video, is that also part of the influence which we saw during the video?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: You have also listened to the speech made by Mr Terreblanche.  Was there at any stage ever said to you, even during closed meetings, that members of the AWB were to participate in the elections or not?

MR SMIT: It was never under any circumstances ever said to us that we would participate in the elections, we were simply to disrupt the elections.

MS VAN DER WALT: You have testified that after the meeting, you were divided into groups?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: On the video mention was also made of call up instructions?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you ever receive any call up instructions?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: When?

MR SMIT: On that specific day, the 2nd of April 1994, it was said to me and to other members that people should prepare themselves, war is just around the corner and that we would receive our call up instructions shortly.

CHAIRPERSON: Of which war are you speaking?

MR SMIT: Before the elections, Mr Terreblanche and his senior Generals in Staff were all speaking about the war, and by that they meant the disruption of the elections, that an election should not take place, even if we were to use violence to prevent it.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the basis of what followed?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the only basis?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Therefore the elections were not to take place?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Smit, why was it necessary to prevent the elections?

MR SMIT: As Mr Terreblanche said on video, it was our common sentiment that we would never stand beneath an ANC government.  He also said that the majority were on the ANC side and we were the minority of manpower.

MS VAN DER WALT: Okay, what was the situation with regard to the Volkstaat?

MR SMIT: What do you mean?

MS VAN DER WALT: Were any discussions ever held with regard to a Volkstaat and what was said to you?

MR SMIT: That is correct.  It was never said that we would ever take a small piece of land of the country as a Volkstaat.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who said that?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Terreblanche said on many occasions that even though it was a small piece of land for 60 000 people?

MR SMIT: Yes, but he said after that, that Mr Mandela would have to come begging for a centimetre or two.

CHAIRPERSON: From that small piece of land?

MR SMIT: No, from the entire country.

CHAIRPERSON: And everybody realised that this would spread throughout the country?

MR SMIT: Yes, it was about the entire country, not just a small piece of land.

CHAIRPERSON: This small piece of land upon which the Volkstaat would be established, was the entire South Africa?

MR SMIT: Yes, the entire South Africa, all four of the old republics.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Smit, on the video a map was shown, did you see it?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was that map?

MR SMIT: That was a map of the Volkstaat.

MS VAN DER WALT: Which areas did it comprise?

MR SMIT: Basically the old four republics?

MR MALAN: To which four republics are you referring to?

MR SMIT: Natal, Cape, Free State and Transvaal.  The Provinces.

MS VAN DER WALT: On the video, certain towns were indicated which were situated in Western Transvaal, did you see that?

MR SMIT: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was the meaning of that?

MR SMIT: At that stage especially the Ystergarde and certain sections of the Wenkommando were sent to protect certain areas in the Western Transvaal.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why that area specifically?

MR SMIT: Because our Headquarters were in Ventersdorp in the Western Transvaal and before these incidents, before the elections, most of the towns in Western Transvaal, like Ottersdal and Sannieshof were the major AWB strongholds.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know the organisation by the name of WESBOU?

MR SMIT: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: After this particular day, the 2nd of April 1994, did you receive any further call up instructions?

MR SMIT: Yes, I did.  Approximately round about the 19th of April 1994.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes, and what was said to you?

MR SMIT: I was told that I should get my people together and that we should move up and gather in Ventersdorp.

MS VAN DER WALT: When you speak of your people, what do you mean?

MR SMIT: That would be the direct Ystergarde members who fell under my command in that region.

MS VAN DER WALT: Where did you live at that stage?

MR SMIT: I lived in Vanderbijlpark.

MS VAN DER WALT: And so therefore you included that area?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did you do then?

MR SMIT: After that I gathered some of the people, amongst others Jaco Nel.  We met and we drove from Vanderbijl to Pretoria where we gathered and from there Mr Hanibal, Jaco Nel and other people who were involved, collectively moved to Abie Fourie's smallholding near Vereeniging.

MS VAN DER WALT: This Jaco Nel, he is one of the applicants?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Hanibal, what do you know about him?

MR SMIT: Rudi Hanibal received his training from me.  He was also one of the key State witnesses in the hearing in 1994.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said that your rank then was Major?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Then you went to Mr Abie Fourie who is also an applicant in this matter?

MR SMIT: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was his rank?

MR SMIT: He was a Commandant in direct command.

MS VAN DER WALT: Very well, and then where did you go?

MR SMIT: We waited there basically the whole night for his brother Gert, who had to come from Standerton.  They all arrived at Abie Fourie's smallholding and after that we left for Ventersdorp.

MS VAN DER WALT: The call up instructions which you received, what exactly did that entail?  What did you hear and what was conveyed by you to the others?

MR SMIT: Our call up instructions were to collect all our food, all our weapons and all our people together.

MS VAN DER WALT: It wasn't told to you what you should do after that?

MR SMIT: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then at Ventersdorp?

MR SMIT: We arrived there, we were addressed by Nico Prinsloo, Leon van der Merwe who told us that we were here to make war.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Nico Prinsloo, he was the General?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.  At that stage he was Secretary General of the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: And that is the gentleman sitting next to Mr Prinsloo over here?

MR SMIT: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what did you do then?

MR SMIT: After that we were taken to Mr Kloof Barnard's farm where we stayed and prepared ourselves, our provisions and our weapons for the war which was at hand.

MS VAN DER WALT: When you speak of us, are you referring only to your group or other people who were there as well?