Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

JUDGE WILSON: Well I understand they have had sight of them and it was Mr Arendse ...[inaudible] agreed that it would be convenient for the photographs to be available to everyone participating.  They are available for him to look at again but he is - as far as I can gather, the only person who's taken the trouble to look at them up to now.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the short adjournment at this stage.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Prior?

ADV SANDI: Mr Mabala, we just would like to remind you that you're still under oath.

MR PRIOR: (cont)
	Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, may I correct a submission or a statement that I put to the last - to the witness, regarding photograph 1a of Exhibit A, that there was a fire directed at the top of the Heidelberg Tavern as one can see there's a balcony - I was under that impression, however having studied the photographs 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22(L), 23 and 24 of the new bundle - that is which relate to the ...[intervention]

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Excuse me for a moment, I don't have that document.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that the question about whether there was firing at the balcony or above the balcony was denied - he had no knowledge of it.

MR PRIOR: I'm simply explaining - I was under the misapprehension that it was in that direction, it was in fact opposite - the building opposite to the tavern, and I'm going to direct my questions in that regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway Mr Arendse, it's quite clear you understand?  The question wrongly directed to this witness about firing being aimed at the top of the Heidelberg Tavern balcony - that was a mistake and the witness's answer was that he knows nothing about the firing in that direction.  Let us just carry on from there.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mabala, it's come to my attention that shooting was directed at the premises - that is the building opposite the tavern, the Heidelberg Tavern, either at the same time as the attack on the tavern or shortly after the attack of the Heidelberg Tavern, do you know anything about that?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I cannot answer that.

MR PRIOR: My information is that fire was directed at patrons who were on the balcony at a night-club called: "The Planet" and if you look at photographs 17, 18 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR PRIOR: There are two bundles that are being prepared, one is for the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please before you put questions, at least make sure that he has these photographs in front of him.

MR PRIOR: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman.  Could I ask Mr Arendse whether the bundle that was - that he has be shown to ...

NORMAN ARENDSE: Mr Chairman, could I just for the record say in as much as I did have sight of those photographs, I did not discuss them with any of the applicants.  I did not do so now during the break for the simple reason that he's under cross-examination.  This is however a new matter and I would have thought that I would have been given that opportunity but I don't intend to do so - he as there and he must tell, he must answer the questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Quite right, yes.  A new bundle or rather a bundle with many more photographs are now placed in front of you and questions are going to be asked about some of those photographs, so please have a look at them.
	And Mr Prior will you direct his attention specifically to each photograph when you put your questions?  This bundle will be Exhibit D.  Yes, Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, save to say that I'm at a disadvantage, I don't have a bundle.   I've simply recorded the numbers of the photographs and which depict damage to the opposite side of the street and my question is in that general nature regarding all the damage that one sees on all the photographs.

JUDGE WILSON: I will bundle that we had available to Mr Prior, perhaps for questioning.   Could I also put on record merely to avoid confusion, that the numbers in the new bundle Exhibit C, are not the same as the numbers in the original bundle Exhibit A.  For example photograph number - on page 2 of the bundle A is photograph 8 in the new bundle and so it goes on.  The first photographs that we've all been referring to on page 1, is photograph 11 in bundle D.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Mabala, will you please look at photograph number 17?  Now, I'm informed that that photograph depicts the building opposite the Heidelberg Tavern in Station Road.  I also want you to look at photograph 18 and can you see the marks on the building which are linked to the letter J by certain black lines?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I see them, Sir.

MR PRIOR: My information and my instructions are that these are bullet marks or marks caused by bullets.  Let me put the other photo - allow you to look at the other photographs if I may, photograph 19 which shows the first floor at ground level of Mable's which is a coffee bar, photograph 22 - could you turn to page 22, do you see the letter L on the left hand side of the photograph?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No English translation.

MR PRIOR: And do you see that there are two black lines ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Could Mr Prior wait for the interpretation please?
	The witness said yes, he could see the picture.

MR PRIOR: And do you see the places to which spot L or mark L refers - to the walls of the balcony in the vicinity of the Dulux sign?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Yes, I can see that.

MR PRIOR: Please turn to photograph 23 and 24, I'm instructed and I'm informed that these photographs depict the building opposite the tavern and that the marks depict ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Which photographs - 23 and 24?

MR PRIOR: 23 and 24 and ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Not the others?

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: All these that you've referred to 17, 18, 19, 22, 23, 24?

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman.   Mr Mabala, so as to avoid any confusion, all these photographs I'm referring to you depict the buildings opposite the tavern that is on the other side of the road of Station Road, do you understand?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I understand.

MR PRIOR: On pictures or photographs 23 and 24, those marks against the building I'm informed are bullet marks, are you able to comment on that?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: There is nothing I can say about that.

MR PRIOR: And my information further is that those bullet marks were caused by people responsible for the Heidelberg attack who shot in that direction.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I don't remember, I can't remember.

MR PRIOR: And I'm also informed that at that time there were people on that balcony at the club called the planet and as a result of that shooting they took cover. Can you comment on that?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No, I cannot comment on that.

MR PRIOR: Would you agree that if this is so, the clubhouse sorry, or the night-club: "The Planet" was certainly not identified as a target by your group for attack on that evening, would you agree?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I cannot answer that question.

MR PRIOR: What is the difficulty?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I only know about the tavern.

MR PRIOR: Is it possible you never saw anyone of your group shooting at across the street because you were inside the tavern at the time, is that a possibility?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: I don't remember.

MR PRIOR: Was there any discussion later on after the attack as to any other building or any other person who had been shot at, other than the Heidelberg Tavern?

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: No, Sir.

MR PRIOR: Mr Mabala, I want to suggest to you that you are not telling us everything that happened on that evening.

ZOLA PRINCE MABALA: Sir, I have told you what happened.  All these things that you are talking about, I don't remember them.  I don't remember them, I was there and I have told you what I do remember - I can't remember everything.