Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-29

ADV JANSEN: As it pleases you Mr Chairperson, my surname is Jansen and I appear on behalf of applicant Ras.  Mr Van Rensburg, Mr Ras says in his statement that on the morning, the morning that he went to Port Elizabeth, he was in your office with Mr De Kock, where this operation was briefly discussed.  That seems to be different in your application.  Can you comment on that at all?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman, that is not the way it happened.  As I already said on that day I wasn't in the office at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jansen, where are you reading from?  Sorry to interrupt.  What page are you reading from?

ADV JANSEN: Oh, from the Ras application?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what page?

ADV JANSEN: Sorry Mr Chairman, you will just have to give me a moment.  Page 257.  At the bottom of 257, top of 258.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Are you referring to the very last sentence on 257?

ADV JANSEN: 257 Chairperson, where they were invited in.

ADV DE JAGER: And on the next page, if you continue he says he invited us in and De Kock mentioned to him that he would send me, Snor Vermeulen and Lionel Snyman to Port Elizabeth.
	Van Rensburg then said good luck and see what you can do there and then I went back to my office.

ADV JANSEN: It is so that some of the Vlakplaas members also had office at head quarters at Wagtehuis, is that correct?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I am not a hundred percent certain any more.  As far as I can recall, there were one office which was at the disposal of Vlakplaas at head office, and if I remember correctly two ladies worked there and they did administrative functions.

ADV JANSEN: It was also practice of some of the Vlakplaas people, especially the commanding members, that they would in the morning first report to head office?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

ADV JANSEN: Would you not at least want to concede that such a visit by Mr Ras along with Mr De Kock, that morning, is perhaps a possibility, one which you can just no longer remember?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Chairperson, in my mind I am certain that it is not possible that it happened that way.  That morning after Mr Nieuwoudt and Mr De Kock left my home, I left my home and I went to a security meeting at the Security Branch in Soweto.

ADV JANSEN: I am assuming that when you were appointed as the person in command of C Section in the Security Police, that you were briefed by your predecessor, Brigadier Schoon regarding the functioning of the office and the normal practice there?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

ADV JANSEN: Not at all?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Not at all.

ADV JANSEN: Wouldn't it have been normal practice that he would have introduced you to the prominent people serving under him and people with whom you would have had regular contact?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I can't recall it like that.  The previous Commanding Officer retired and that is simply how it was.  He told me that I should speak to Mr De Kock because Mr De Kock knew everything and that he would brief me.

ADV JANSEN: In any event, you were at that stage aware that Vlakplaas was involved in the killing of people?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I have already said so.

ADV JANSEN: And that when Vlakplaas operated, they operated in groups?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

ADV JANSEN: You were probably also aware of the fact that head office had certain technical capacities?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

ADV JANSEN: And that these people were the people who manufactured the bombs and so on?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I can't say that.  Or let me put it this way, I did have such a suspicion, but I never had contact with the technical section in connection with that kind of thing.

ADV JANSEN: Did you have very regular, virtual daily contact with Mr De Kock?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I would say on a regular basis.

ADV JANSEN: How regularly did you visit the farm?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Not very regularly.

ADV JANSEN: Is it correct that Vlakplaas at that stage was quite a large Unit, there were about 100 plus people involved in the Unit?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I really couldn't give you a figure here, but I will accept that that could possibly have been the number involved.

ADV JANSEN: And as the Commander of this C1 Unit at that stage and a member of the Security Police, with a number of years experience, one would assume that when you either gave an order or essentially gave your permission that an operation be carried out, that all your instructions and orders would be followed?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

ADV JANSEN: And is it also so that these covert operations did not proceed along the basis of any prescribed rules?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

ADV JANSEN: Could one also make the statement that these things took place within the framework of a culture to which people had become used to, in other words a person wasn't approached at some point and told look, you are now going to become involved in covert operations and the rules are X, Y and Z?  It is something to which a person became used to and systematically and gradually became involved in?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I would concede that.

ADV JANSEN: And just as the conversations which took place between the people were sometimes very vague in a similar way, the instructions which sometimes were given to them, were riddled with certain assumptions?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: It is a little bit difficult, I don't understand exactly what you mean.

ADV JANSEN: You would accept that a person in the position of Mr Ras, who was a Warrant Officer, would accept that Mr De Kock had informed you about certain operations if De Kock deemed it necessary?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

ADV JANSEN: And De Kock would have assumed that you would then clear it with certain people if you thought it necessary?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

ADV JANSEN: A person who becomes involved in an operation purely for operational purposes, would simply assume that the intelligence gathering in respect of the operation and the processing of it and the consideration of that information, that all these things had been done by the bodies responsible for those functions?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: It is possible.

ADV JANSEN: Well, isn't it so that a person who becomes involved as an operator in an operation, has no choice but to accept all these other aspects as a given?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

ADV JANSEN: Would it be correct to say that it would be very strange for a person in Mr Ras' position, to ask all kinds of questions which would indicate that he was possibly questioning the merits of the operation?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Could you repeat that please.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Van Rensburg, I think what is being put to you is this, Mr Ras was a foot soldier.  He would just accept that the orders given were properly given and that he has to just carry out his job, is that the position?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

ADV JANSEN: And, that the only questions which could be expected of such a person, would be those questions which was essential for that person in the carrying out of that operation, or his part of it?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is what I would expect.

ADV JANSEN: And that this kind of approach of this particular person, would also be applicable in cases where it was clear that the order was actually illegal or illegitimate, in other words where people were to be killed as part of the operation?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.

ADV JANSEN: It would also be true where members of the South African Police were killed on the basis that there could be a possible bridge of security, endangering the lives of informers?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Correct.