Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-11-21

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: I can't say about after the attack Mr Chairman because ...

CHAIRPERSON: Okay 6 months before?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Six months before the attack, I have to say no, MEDU did not see itself as an extension of the ANC, or as a cultural front of the ANC.  There were other cultural structures that I do know about which I did not have any interaction with, which I know were closely aligned to the ANC, much more so than MEDU Arts Ensemble.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Abrahamse, you explain in your statement in paragraph 5.1 through to 5.6 why it was that you moved out of the house.  Then in your place moved in the Geer couple, that couple, the Geer couple, did they have any ANC links?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: The Geer couple had no links whatsoever to the ANC.  If you refer to paragraph 5.6 I say there quite clearly that the Geer couple responded to an advertisement and sub-let the main house from Mike and myself.  They had no links to the ANC.  I would be surprised if they even knew that Mike and myself were exiles or refugees.  I do not think that they were even aware of that.

MR BERGER: Mr Geer was killed in the attack, Mrs Geer was not, she was wounded.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And is it correct that she was pregnant at the time?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: She was four months pregnant at the time.  I learned recently that she gave birth to a boy in November 1985.

MR BERGER: You say in paragraph 7 at page 13 that
"Having lived in Botswana for a period of two and a half years before the raid, I was familiar with some of those who were killed  I can positively state that none of them were involved in any way in military operations."
Who are those people that you are referring to?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: I'll make an example of Thami Mnyele.  Thami and I used to have a friendly rivalry about music.  Prior to my arrival in Botswana, Thami always had the best collection of South African music and I over a very short period of time, managed to build up what was considered an even better collection with the result that Thami and I often spoke and we spoke about music, we spoke about the arts, we spoke about culture and after the raid, I went with Thami's wife to their house for her to collect some of her things.  That is how close I was to both Thami and his wife and I know definitely that Thami was not involved in military activities.  I can say the same about Mike Hamlyn, I can say exactly the same about Ahmed Geer, I'm saying that those are three people that I know who were killed and who had no role at all in military operations.

MR BERGER: As a refugee did you ever receive the supplies that Ms Mbethe was talking about?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Mr Chair, yes, we did receive supplies from the ANC.  Sometimes it was not only supplies, sometimes it was also money to pay for the gas, to pay for the water and electricity, I think the term used at the time, I don't know the origin of the term and I don't know how to spell it, but the term used was "Arbein" and we sometimes received that, but I think ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Just mention that word again.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: It was called arbein.  That was the word.

MR MALAN: If you had phonetically to spell it?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: I wouldn't have a clue.

MR MALAN: Arbein?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: As in eisbein, except with an r at the front, but where it comes from I don't know, I really don't have a clue where the word comes from, but I think what needs to be said is, on the question of supplies, it must be borne in mind that Botswana had a very organised United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees and because the ANC had an organised presence in Botswana, you would say for instance find that at Dukwe Refugee Camp there would be 50 ANC refugees waiting for the opportunity to move on to Zambia or Tanzania or wherever.  The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, would give the ANC 50 steel cots with mattresses for these people to sleep on.  They would give the ANC the supply of sardines, of cooking oil, of mielie pap and so on, which would be delivered to the ANC in bulk, which the ANC would have to transport to its members in Dukwe Refugee Camp, or to its members in other parts of Botswana because refugees did not all simply live in Dukwe Refugee Camp.  So I wanted to say this on the question of the delivery of supplies, that in my opinion and later on after I had completed my military training, I became Regional Treasurer of the ANC in Angola where I was directly responsible for what we termed logistics, which was the supply of all basic foodstuff, deodorant, buckets, everything, face cloths, underwear, to all ANC members living in Botswana and that is a full-time occupation.  The receiving of the supplies, the delivery of the supplies, making sure that you don't run out of supplies etc., it is a full-time occupation and I do feel that it is necessary to clarify that and it would be, even in Angola, which was the safest place of the ANC, even in Angola, logistics was totally separate from Ordinance.  We dealt with food supplies, with clothing, with furniture, with building material, etc.  Weapons was dealt with by a completely separate branch, they stood totally alone, so that even in a situation where we were completely safe, there was no way in which supplies included your weapons and ordinances.

MR BERGER: Mr Abrahamse about your military training.  When did you join MK and then go off for military training?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: The day after the raid I was taken into protective custody by the Botswana police, I was kept there for a few days, if I remember correctly, in the course of which they made it quite clear to me that the couldn't guarantee my safety.  I therefore spoke to the ANC Chief Rep and together we went to see the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees.  They arranged for me to fly from Botswana via Zimbabwe to Zambia.  We over-nighted in Zimbabwe for one night and it was my decision immediately after the raid that I wanted to join MK, I wanted to be able to fight back on equal terms, with these chaps.  In fact, during my military training when we had to go for shooting lessons, I would often be unable to see the target, I would only see a brown uniform, as a consequence of which I shot very, very well, to the extent that as a trainee I was given the responsibility of carrying the company machine gun in my platoon and immediately after my basic training, I was trained in anti-aircraft artillery because of the way, up to day, I visit the shooting range regularly and my average in shooting, even with a pistol, is in excess of 95% accuracy, so I want to say that I started my military training after the raid into Botswana.  I think I started my training around September 1985 and it was a clear and deliberate decision on my part that I wanted to be able to fight back.

MR BERGER: Because of?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Because of what they had done to my friend and what they had wanted to do to me.

MR BERGER: Mr Abrahamse ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Just in order - maybe we can save some cross-examination on this Mr Berger.  Why were you called in by the Botswana police?  Why were you told that they couldn't guarantee your safety?  Can you tell us who else did they call in?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: I really don't know who else they called in Mr Chair, but as I explained in my statement, I think it is on page, on the second page paragraph number 6, I was clearly listed as one of the targets of the raid.  It went to the ridiculous extent where the Sunday Times of June 16th 1985 called me the Joe Slovo of Botswana.  It was that ridiculous.  I was clearly a target.  These people thought that they had killed me and listed me amongst those killed.  With the first news broadcast, I think it was at 5 in the morning, I was listed as having been killed.

MR MALAN: So you're satisfied that you were a target of the attack?  That's your belief?