Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: ...whether what you are saying to us is thatthese people were supposed to be killed by a lethal injectionor you are saying these people were supposed to be killed by animpact of the Kombi or whether you are saying
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MR MPSHE 624 J H CRONJE
they are supposed to be killed by an explosive?   I'm not justsure what you are saying there.

ANSWER: My suspicion would be, or I would suspect thatthey would have died because of the injection and that they wouldthen have been blown up which would have implied that if theywere found, there would have been no remaining proof of the injectionsand that it would then have been impossible to point out anyonein that way.   The impression that we wanted to create was thatthey had blown themselves up.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : When the operation was planned and you madecontact with the Zeerust Security Police, did you not discussthe method that would be used to kill the activists?

ANSWER: No, the operation was discussed with CommandantCharl Naude but not in detail, he only said we had to have themavailable at a certain point at a certain time and then he wouldtake it from there.

CHAIRPERSON: Who administered the injection?

ANSWER: They were administered by members of Charl Naude'sSpecial Forces but I cannot remember who they were.

JUDGE WILSON: : Were any checks made to see if they werearmed before they set off?

ANSWER: I would have thought that Joe Mamasela wouldhave done this, he would not have allowed arms in the Kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: Clearly this was a case where people who werenot high profile activists at all have died.

ANSWER: That is the case, they were not high profileactivists.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Brigadier is it correct that they died onthe basis of the unverified information from Mr Mamasela?
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ANSWER: With regard to the fact that they wanted to
receive military training, is that your question?

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Yes sir you acted on the basis of that information.

ANSWER: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Brigadier were there any requests to providetravel documents for them so that they would be able to crossthe border legally?

ANSWER: No such request was received.   Mamasela saidthat he would arrange for them to go to Botswana illegally sothat they would then immediately be able to receive politicalasylum and from there they could have been taken for further training.

UNKNOWN: Did you at any time know that they wouldhave received injections?

ANSWER: No, I did not know this.

UNKNOWN: The manner of elimination was not discussedbeforehand, is that so?

ANSWER: No it was not discussed beforehand.

UNKNOWN: The injection could have had one of twoeffects, it could have either anaesthetized them or it could havekilled them?

ANSWER: That is the case.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman before I close up, I just wantto state that by consent with all the parties I want to HANDUP the postmortem reports in this matter.   Mr Chairman theseI got from an Inquest that was held in Madiqwe, Inquest No 27/87.  Mr Chairman they are not intended for cross-examination by myself,but first to show out the question  of proportionality. (2) Toshow the relationship between the
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MR MPSHE 626 ADDRESS
number of postmortem reports, that is 10, the number as mentionedby my colleague Mr Brian Currin.   (3) To state Mr Chairman furtherthat this Inquest was held in exactly the area where the Kombiwas being blown up, that is Madiqwe.   That is all Mr Chairman.

MR CURRIN: : Mr Chairman may I just correct an impressionthat may have been created earlier on.   There was the discussionabout the Kombi blowing up and it was suggested...(end of side1)...as I understood it, it was suggested that there may havebeen a bomb in the Kombi but the Kombi was blown up with petrol.  In other words any vehicle can blow up if it hits a wall, ohno it wasn't sorry I misread something, my apologies.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman, the postmortem reports I havejust handed up I have already marked them as EXHIBIT O.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Exhibit O.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible, no microphone).

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Yes Mr Chairman, I have.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible)...

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : ...identification they all say "unknownmale persons" and they just indicate that the bodies werecharred and could not be identified.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Brigadier I just want to ask one question.  When Mr Mamasela gave a report with regard to the activists,even as to join MK for training, did he indicate the names andthe approximate ages of the activists concerned?

ANSWER: No he didn't Your Honour, he did also not mentiontheir ages.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Thank you.
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JUDGE NGCOBE: During that time Brigadier, around 1986,were there a number of young people leaving the country for trainingabroad for military training?

ANSWER: Yes.

JUDGE NGCOBE: Did that have any influence on you whenyou evaluated Mr Mamasela's information?

ANSWER: Yes it would have influenced me.   I was awareof many young people going out of the country and I thought orI was convinced in my heart that I was acting in a preventativefashion.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : In that case Brigadier it wouldn't havemade any difference if Mr Mamasela had mentioned the ages of theactivists involved, you still would have proceeded with the executionof the operation?   Am I correct in concluding that?

ANSWER: I would have continued yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Finally, when you received this report andwhen Mamasela assembled these young people, did nobody take itupon themselves to talk to these youngsters to find out why theywant to go overseas, is there any reason why they should not gooverseas.   You are dealing with young school children, shouldn'tanybody have talked to these young people?

ANSWER: Mr Chair if I would have talked to them or anyother white person, they would not have listened to us at all.  Mamasela could have talked to them, but since he was pretendingto be a terrorist and a member of MK, I think they would havethought it very peculiar if he did speak to them.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible).

ANSWER: Yes that is so.
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JUDGE WILSON: : It would have been very intimidating ifyou had taken these young men into the police station, photographedthem, fingerprinted them, told them you had this information aboutthem, couldn't that have persuaded them perhaps not to go?

ANSWER: I do not know Mr Chair, I cannot answer thisquestion but I doubt if it would have influenced them at all.

UNKNOWN: Mr Mpshe, I don't know what this doctor'sexperience is, and I don't know how charred the bodies are, buthe estimates some of the ages, the last one 20 years of age, thesecond-last one 20 years of age approximately.   Then one about40 years of age, 20-25 years, 40-45 years, 30-35 years and anotherone 15 years, another one about 30 years and the first one 15-20years.   I don't know, have you got any knowledge of this doctor,have you perhaps met him before, do you know whether he's experiencedor not?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Mr Chairman and members of the Committee, Ihave not met the doctor, neither can I say anything to his qualifications.  As I have indicated I took this out of an Inquest that was beingheld in that area but if the Committee is of the opinion thatthe doctor should be called, I do not think we can have any difficultyin getting the doctor to explain this.   I have not met him myself.

UNKNOWN: I think the applicants could tell us whetherit's common cause that it was youngsters.   Perhaps if we couldclear that it would assist us.

MR DU PLESSIS: : Mr Chairman I will deal with that in re-examinationand I will make certain points when I deal with that.