Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-19

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Schoon, I know it does not specifically relate to you, but I would like to refer you to certain documents here.  Committee, I am referring to page 130 of the bundle.  This is very clearly a police document.  It is from the Security Branch from Brig du Preez, written by du Preez, to the Commissioner of Police.  It is an application in terms of Section 6 of the Terrorism Act of the time where they wrote a motivation.  Is that how you read it?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Then it follows after that, there follows on page 132 up to page 138, certain print-outs.  I showed them to you this morning, is that correct?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: If I read these because the Amnesty's Administration put it in the bundle, it would appear as if these are computer print-outs from Security Head Office.

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: It would appear like that, yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And if I see these then they are about what the family of Mr Madondo, it has to do with Oupa Ronald Madondo, is that correct?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you, Mr Chair, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you stop there, can he perhaps help us with the print-out on page 138?

MS VAN DER WALT: If I could show you, Mr Chair, on page 137 there are more details, 138 is just the shortened version.  I also showed it to Mr Schoon this morning, may I just talk to you for a moment?  May I go backwards in the - it's about Mr Madondo and it has his date of birth which is 20/5/1948 and it gives what his home language is and goes on to refer to the fact that he is a lorry driver.  Are these all the details known about this man and were put on the computer?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: On page 137 there was an identification, 9th month of 78.

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: The person who testified about him is there.

MS VAN DER WALT: He met him in Kibasch in Angola, it was an ANC Military Training Base?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: It appears that this person met Madondo, no that Madondo was trained in Angola at that time.  In the first month of 79 this person departed.  It goes on to say that G T saw him again.

CHAIRPERSON: G T did not see him again.

MS VAN DER WALT: Sorry, but in the 7th month of 83, there's a name September, his surname is Sidebe and that's a known person, is it know that he was one of the Commanders of, from where, can you remember?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: From the Transvaal machinery, but he was stationed in Swaziland.

MS VAN DER WALT: That Sidebe identified him and then the next sentence, they instructed G T to eliminate him because he had worked with the S A Police in the RSA.  Such information will also be available.  Just below that Mr Chair, he, at that stage, it would seem to me as if it refers to 1983, he moved between Swaziland and Matola and it goes on to say G T then went with them to Kibasch where they got training.  So that is about, that's the info that the Security Police had with regard to Mr Madondo.
	Then we can go to page 138 which is also a summary of page 137.

CHAIRPERSON: It's almost a duplicate in fact.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes.  So this is as you understand it, that this information is obtained through informants and then placed on record?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Not just informants, these are arrested terrorists and all the information from interrogation would also be recorded.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Mr Schoon, when you received that first telephone call from van Zyl, you indicated that he requested your assistance for a sensitive operation, did you at the time realise that this was going to involve something of such a nature, like the murder of somebody?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: No, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: What did you think you were going to be involved in?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: I couldn't really make any deductions according to what he told me.  It was vague.

MR WILLS: Was it quite common for somebody out of your area to request your assistance?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Chairman, we were in the same division and we worked together at all stages and if I had something to do and there is a neighbouring area, then I would see those people and we would work together, that was the general type of approach.

MR WILLS: So in other words it was quite common for you to have dealings with Mr van Zyl at that time?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: That is correct, yes.

MR WILLS: Just getting to the boat, where did you get the boat from?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: From Josini.

MR WILLS: Yes and whose boat was it?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: My own.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

MR BOOYENS: No question, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

MS SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MS SAMUEL: So you worked in Josini at that time, am I right?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: That is correct.

MS SAMUEL: And where did you live at that time?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: I lived at Josini.

MS SAMUEL: Now of Capt Paul van Dyk, Freek Pienaar, Gert Beeslaar...(intervention)

MS VAN DER WALT: Chairman, sorry, those people are not involved at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let's hear what he wants to ask because if you're implicating people, you would realise we'll have to give them notice.

MS SAMUEL: Sir, I'm just looking at page 37 of his application.

MS VAN DER WALT: Chairman, this morning I made objections to the person leading the Committee because there was a further application in this bundle by my client.  He could give me no explanation as to why this was added to the bundle, and I would like to say that the application still has to be heard.

CHAIRPERSON: It is still a future application that will be dealt with at the hearing of that application.

MS SAMUEL: As the Chairman pleases.  Be that as it may.  Sir, where did Mr Visser live at that time, do you know?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: He lived in Johannesburg.

MS SAMUEL: And Mr Visser was the person who contacted you to come and help him dispose of this body, am I right?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: No, I thought I said it was van Zyl who assisted me, or who was contacted.

MS SAMUEL: Is it Mr van Zyl who contacted you, is that what you're saying.

CHAIRPERSON: That was his evidence, Sir.

MS SAMUEL: Thank you.  No, I didn't write it down.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  What I want to know, of all the members that you were in contact with in regard to this incident, were any other members living in Josini at that time?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: I don't really follow the question.  If I could answer like this perhaps, Josini was a Security Branch, a number of members were stationed there but the people mentioned in this application, none were stationed at Josini.

MS SAMUEL: Those are the people I'm referring to.  Is it not true, Sir, that you being the only member that was stationed at Josini, know the area in Josini, am I right, or would know about vacant farm houses?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: That is correct, Sir.

MS SAMUEL: Is it not true that you were the person that arranged for them to meet at this farm house?  You informed them about this vacant farm house, Sir?

GERHARDUS STEPHANUS SCHOON: Van Zyl did mention that we used that place on a former occasion, he was also aware of that house then.

MS SAMUEL: So they didn't ask you for any assistance in regard to a vacant property that they could utilise for that day?