Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-20

MR VISSER: Well Chairperson, I didn't make a study of the docket, I think that the only ones here are relevant to the Kubheka matter.  Let me just go through them very briefly, the ones I have.  I'm not sure whether these are all of them.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, maybe I can help.  I think it's common cause that the Vlakplaas team were here for some months preceding this and that the specific S&T records for the month of April are in fact missing and they're not in the docket.  There's no S&T records for the month of April, as my perusal of the docket indicates.  So we just have the May ones.  We don't dispute they were here in May, we don't dispute that they were here in April and I don't think that Mr Visser and Mr Wagener do, but the S&T records for Vlakplaas members for April are missing.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Chairperson, to reply to Commissioner's Lax's question, yes we have found also in the docket S&T forms relating to February.  I wasn't aware that there are S&T forms for April missing, I have no reason to doubt that information.

CHAIRPERSON: And it may be that Mr de Kock during that period, February through to May, came from time to time.

MR VISSER: Yes, absolutely.

CHAIRPERSON: For a day or two.

MR VISSER: Absolutely, it would have made sense, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo, do you have any questions that you'd like to ask?

MR HUGO: Yes thank you, Mr Chairman.  I was going to kick off with the date of the incident.
	Mr Mbane, can you remember whether you stayed in Durban for a continuous period during this particular operation or whether you had occasion to go back to Pretoria and then come back and continue with this operation?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, we stayed here continuously until the end of the operation.

MR HUGO: How long, to the best of your recollection, did this operation last?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Three to five weeks.

MR HUGO: Now if you would just be so kind as to look at bundle 2, this is really a summary of the documents that Mr Visser has been referring to, it's page 78.  This is a statement by the investigating officer, or one of the investigating officers, a Mr Holmes, and from that it would appear that you were claiming S&T for the period 14th of May to the 29th of May, would you say that this was the total period that you spent here in Durban, or were you here for a longer period?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, we stayed more than that time.  If I can still remember well, we came here in April, but I'm not sure.

MR HUGO: Did you come down here towards the end of April, or the beginning of April?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Towards the end of April.

MR HUGO: And how did you travel from Pretoria to Durban?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: We travelled by kombis.

MR HUGO: And who was the driver of the kombi that you were a passenger in?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: If I can still remember well, I think it was uncle Moss or Letsatsi.

MR HUGO: Yes, and then when you arrived here in Durban, were you introduced to, amongst other people, to Mr Miyeza?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR HUGO: What was the purpose of you being introduced to Mr Miyeza, what was he supposed to do?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: What they would do when we arrived in a certain area, they would introduce us to a person who would show us the area, the townships, the stations.

MR HUGO: Is it correct that Mr Miyeza was really just mandated to show you around in general terms, he didn't specifically have to deal with the Kubheka incident itself?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, he knew about this operation while we were busy with it.

MR HUGO: Yes, but initially he just showed you around and showed you where the various townships were, etcetera?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR HUGO: Then as far as the initial introduction to Ms Kubheka, I'm just going to give you a summary of what I understood your evidence to be, you must just tell me if I'm wrong, first of all you said that you arrived here, for the first three days you were at CR Swart, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR HUGO: And then yesterday you testified that you were introduced to a certain Gipsman and that he gave you information about the terrorists and he would then lead you to Ms Kubheka, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And on the strength of his evidence you then sometime later went to Ms Kubheka, where you were introduced to her as being fellow comrades, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HUGO: And Ms Kubheka then said to you that there was a problem with accommodation for comrades that were coming in from exile and you then said to her that you have safe-houses where you could take these people to, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And just as far as the sequence of the events is concerned, you first then testified that a man from Zambia was mentioned and he was then handed over at a roadblock, a false roadblock you called it, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And then there was, the second incident was Sbu and he was handed over at Winkelspruit, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And then as far as the sequence is concerned, a third man, also a comrade and he was, on the strength of your evidence, killed by Mr Radebe.  Are you happy with that version?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR HUGO: And that all three of these men were introduced to you by Ms Kubheka as being comrades, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HUGO: Now would you please just go back to page 128 of bundle 1.  I'll read to you, this is paragraph 42 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just for record purposes, this is from Mr Mbane's statement.  From your statement, Mr Mbane.

MR HUGO: Yes, Mr Mbane, you say there
"Myself and Dube went to Ntombi's place.  We asked for Ntombi and fortunately the person we were asking was Ntombi."
Now this is not what you told us yesterday, would you agree?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, I agree.

MR HUGO: So this particular statement is wrong?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Because we had our accommodation, so this means that there's something wrong here.

MR HUGO: Yes.  And what is also obvious from this statement is that you don't at all mention the fact that the Gipsman was there and he in fact introduced you to Ntombi.  Would you agree with that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, it is not in the statement.

MR HUGO: Now can you give this Committee any reason as to why you didn't mention this in this statement?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: As this happened a long time ago, maybe I forgot to mention it.

MR HUGO: Yes.  And what is also intriguing is that you say there
"We had some discussion with her and we told her that we were from exile and we need accommodation."
That's also wrong, isn't that so?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR HUGO: Now why did you put it like that in the statement, what is the reason for that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't know, maybe I made a mistake or I forgot about it.

MR HUGO: Yes.  But I thought your attorney yesterday at the inception of the cross-examination of Mr Radebe, indicated that he took cognisance of the fact that Mr Radebe's memory wasn't all that good and had been affected by his health, but then he said in the same breath that your memory is very good and very clear, is that not so?

MR SAMUEL: If I may come in there, Mr Chairman, if you read the statement, paragraph 42 of that statement, it shows that there is most probably some mistaken, either in interpretation.  It's obvious that Mr Mbane did not type out this statement himself.  Further, if you look at that statement carefully, you'll find that he tells Ntombi that he's looking for accommodation and in the same paragraph he finds accommodation.  Ntombi tells them that there is another comrade that needs a place of safety.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I think that Mr Hugo's entitled to ask the question.

MR SAMUEL: Fine.