Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR DREYER: Okay, let me ask you in this fashion, the fact that a security official who works at the bank and who makes sure that there are no illegitimate things happening, the fact that he goes to the bank with a weapon, because that's his job, we know that a burglary or a robbery might take place, then he must do his job and then we can accept the fact that because of the fact that he's got a weapon, he might accept that there are definitely going to be a robbery, people are going to be killed?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No.

MR DREYER: Then I'd like to apply that to this situation.  The fact that you were told that there are going to be bodies, that evening when you left the roadhouse in the back of your mind did you believe, "It doesn't matter what happen tonight, but tonight there are going to be bodies", is that what you thought, is this what you're saying to us?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I cannot tell you what I thought at that stage.  As I said in court, I should have provided for the fact that this could have happened.   I did provide that this could happen, I foresaw that, and that the general wanted bodies and that people might be shot.

MR DREYER: I do not expect of you to make your own inferences, or inferences as far as the jury is concerned, I want to know what you subjectively thought, and again I'm asking you, when you left there as part of this group, when you left the roadhouse, did you believe that when you got home tonight, there would have been people killed?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No.

MR DREYER: So you agree with Mr Van der Schyff as far as that's concerned?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: If I understand you correctly.

MR DREYER: You didn't see it as a definite instruction, you are going from here in order to kill people?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, not to go and kill people.

MR DREYER: Do you have any proof or any reason to believe, according to your own knowledge, not from what you heard or with regards to the credibility to Kloppers, but subjectively, did you carry any knowledge that such an instruction would have been given by Oelofse, except for the words of Kloppers?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No.

MR DREYER: You said that you saw Oelofse at the Voortrekker Monument?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That's correct.

MR DREYER: Did you ever see him pertinently that he was there holding discussions or giving instructions to Kloppers?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: There was a camp fire at the Voortrekker Monument, the guys with the ranks were standing around this fire, together with Oelofse, and they were very friendly... (intervention).

MR DREYER: And I'm asking you, did you see, or did you hear, that, if any specific instructions were given from Oelofse to Kloppers or Martin or anybody else?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Not at the monument, no.

MR DREYER: Let's get to the last two facets according to which you testified.   You said that while you were in detention, there was a group discussion and then Oelofse told you that you ought to receive medals, and you said at a later stage in your evidence that he also said that it was the correct thing to do?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes.

MR DREYER: Let's accept for the moment, and I'll return to this, let's accept for the moment that this is exactly what Oelofse said, we accept he said this, now I would like to know from you, you must watch the news or you read the paper or whatever, we all know, it's quite actual news, especially in the Cape, there's an organisation which wants to fight against drugs and gangs, PAGAD, we all know that.   Now when I watch news in the evening, and I have young children, and I do not want them to use drugs, then I probably in sentiment agree with what PAGAD does.   Do you agree with that?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes.

MR DREYER: But does that mean that because I have the same sentiment, that I would do it myself, or that I would give them the instruction to do that?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No.

MR DREYER: Now again I'm telling you, I put it to you, even if Oelofse said this, which I deny he said, but even if he had said that, I am telling you that he did not give the instruction that there should be such behaviour, and as far as you believed there was such an instruction, you only got that instruction from Kloppers?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I received my instruction from Kloppers, that's correct.

MR DREYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DREYER
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRINK

MR MALAN: I just also want to talk with regard to the rank structures and the execution of instructions.   You said that you did not expect that there would be bodies, but in the court they told you that you should have foreseen the possibility?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That's correct.

MR MALAN: But you did not expect it?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No.

MR MALAN: But you went to work, you expected that it's an operation in para-military fashion, but you testify that you stopped to chase black people and that some of your colleagues got behind the car and drove away with your vehicle?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That is correct, they started driving away.

MR MALAN: How does that rhyme with, "Tonight, we have to work, tonight the revolution starts"?   You are saying that, in other evidence was that Mr Kloppers reprimanded you, or addressed you?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That is correct.   He said I must only follow instructions.

MR MALAN: But I want to connect this with regards to your expectations, did you think you were really going to work, or would you think it's a game?   I mean you jump out the car and chase somebody and other people drive away?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, it wasn't a game.

MR MALAN: So why did they drive away from you, have you ever asked them why they drove away?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Ja, I went back to the vehicle and they asked me, "What did you shoot?", and I said I shot a black person.

MR MALAN: Why?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That was because I didn't have a rank and I didn't want to be reprimanded.   There was an assistant Commandant in the car, there were two "veldkornets" in the car, I was a bit scared to create conflict with them, I didn't know them.

MR MALAN: Didn't you ask them, "Why do you drive away without my permission?"

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I did.   They only laughed.

MR MALAN: Did you think they were making a joke with you, when they were driving away from you?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I don't know, I cannot say what exactly they were thinking or what this person was thinking when he wanted to drive my car, it just happened like that.

MR MALAN: And you didn't think that this is quite serious, people are called up to go and work, the revolution starts tonight, you're already someone who's only been a member for a bit more than a week and it's such an important task, you jump out, you chase a black person, and the other people, who have the same important instructions, they drive away with your car and you didn't ask any questions?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, I didn't ask them why they drove away.

MR MALAN: Have you asked them since then?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, afterwards I did, but at that stage I did not ask them anything.

MR MALAN: What did they tell you when you asked them afterwards?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That was when we were in jail already, and they said if I did not come, they would have left me there.

ADV SIGODI: In which jail are you being held at the moment?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Diepkloof Maximum.

ADV SIGODI: And how long have you been there?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I've been transferred from Leeukop to Diepkloof in February this year.

ADV SIGODI: February this year.   And your other co-applicants, in which jail are they?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Mr Van der Schyff is also in Diepkloof, the rest of the people is in Leeukop.

ADV SIGODI: And after you were sentenced, after your criminal trial, were you in Leeukop?