Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

MR SINGH:  In other words you say Ray Ngcobo was killed as a result of some threats.  You know, to summarise this thing here, he was threatened.  No, I won't get any further than that, but I will continue to ask you regarding paragraph 37.1, with regard to that paragraph.  Maybe you will also say you were just saying concisely, I don't know, but you've said you have difficulties of even falling asleep at night, sleeping sound and peaceful.  What you wish could happen is for you to forget everything, the harassment, the torturing, and the killings that took place.  Two questions with regard to this statement.  Firstly, is there some incidents that you found yourself being part of?

WITNESS:   Some incidents I was involved with it.

MR SINGH:  Okay, I won't elaborate.  Secondly, you go on to say you have difficulties in sleeping so sound at night.  Tell us, how is your health faring in as far as that is concerned?

WITNESS:   Each and every evening when I sleep on my dream I saw some of the pictures of the people.  And that's why I say I want to put this thing past.  Some of the families sitting here today they doesn't know where their parents is.  Some of them doesn't know where their children are.  That's why I came today.

MR SINGH: I understand, Mr Shabangu.  There are two more things I will want to make comment on.  Out of all the things that happened one will have to thank you for coming forward.  Many are hiding, they don't want to come and give testimony, but we want to thank you in a special way that you've been so brave enough to come forward and disclose so much.  Secondly, we might have to refer you to the psychologists for your health.  After this you should ask the TRC staff as to how you can get there and so on.

MR SINGH:  Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got a few questions.  Firstly just to establish the dates.  I know that you said it's very difficult to remember the exact dates, but to have a better picture can I ask how long after the IFP rally on the 25th of March did the story that you have just related occur?

WITNESS:   You refer to the IFP march that was in Durban?

MR SINGH:  Yes, I am referring to the IFP rally which was in Durban.

WITNESS:   If I am not mistaken I think it was four or five days.

MR SINGH:  Thank you.  My next question, you mentioned that the special constables were recruited probably exclusively to help the IFP.  Where were they recruited from and who recruited them?

WITNESS:   They were recruited at Cape Town, at Koeberg.

MR SINGH:  I mean the areas where they came from.

WITNESS:   They came from Emaswazini, Mafunze and Elandskop.

MR SINGH:  And who was responsible for recruiting them?

WITNESS:  Well, the man that I know when I was at the unit that time, who actually came several time at the unit, it was David Ntombela.

MR SINGH: Thank you.  You also mentioned the presence of

MR SINGH: /Mr Philip

MR SINGH: Mr Philip Powell.  Can I find out his role there?  Why was he there?  Did he say anything, did he do anything?

WITNESS:  Well, the time when he came with the vehicle, and then at the time when he get out from the vehicle, that's the time our vehicle moved from the scene.

MR SINGH:  As somebody you knew fairly well, probably you have had - worked with him in the past, what is your opinion about his presence there on that particular day?

WITNESS:   Well, I also put it this way.  There is a statement I've been already make it.  I was working with him a lot of time.

MR SINGH:  Thank you.  And also you made reference to the Canter truck.  Can I confirm, did the truck belong to the police?

WITNESS:   That truck was a police truck.  It was coming from the unit.

MR SINGH:  Would you recall the registration number of this truck?

WITNESS:   Well, there's only one long-base Usuzu truck was there at the unit that time.

MR SINGH:  Another question relates to paragraph 32 of your statement.  I just want to find out about Mrs Gasa.  You made reference to her.  Can you tell us more about her and the family?  What happened to them?

WITNESS:   Well, by the time when I saw Mrs Gasa - I know her because I saw her several times.  And then I spoke to her, and then also I informed to the unit because her husband's working at the unit.

MR SINGH:  I presume they were staying at KwaShange area.

WITNESS:  That's correct.

MR SINGH:  Were they also affected by the violence that had taken place?

WITNESS:   According to what she told me, and also she show me the house.  The house was already start to burn.

MR SINGH:  According to your knowledge is Mr Gasa still in the police force?

WITNESS:   That's correct.

MR SINGH:  Where is he stationed now?

WITNESS:   He's still stationed at the unit.

MR SINGH:  Excuse me for my ignorance.  You mentioned Units Eight and 19.  Which one is Mr Gasa?

WITNESS:   Well, the time when I left that unit he was working at the kitchen.

MR SINGH:  Lastly - maybe it's a follow-up Professor Magwaza's concern - you mentioned that you want to break with the past.  Have you been advised or have you considered applying for amnesty?

WITNESS:   On this moment the people are busy doing that.

MR SINGH: Thank you, Sir.

MR SINGH:  I have one last question.  I think you are disturbed.  You appear disturbed and not peaceful.  Would you wish some assistance that would help you to get in touch with other people who also were affected by you and harassed, tortured by you, so you may reconcile with them?

WITNESS:   There is some people, and I'd like to say those people, maybe they're going to hear on the following statement.  It's very hard for me to pronounce that front of these people.  Maybe some of them they's not here.

MR SINGH:  What I am saying is I am not expecting you to disclose here of the things that you did, but I do feel that probably some of the people you should get in touch with them.  That will be a sign of showing remorse and reconciling with them at the same time.

WITNESS:   There is some people.  I'd like to talk to them, to explain them.

MR SINGH: I was saying that so that we will suggest to you that if you feel there is a need to do that you should come to us.  The Truth Commission will enlist some help.

MR SINGH: Mr Shabangu, thank you very much for coming in and talking to us today.  We know how difficult it is for you, as a serving policeman, to come forward and tell us things that you and your colleagues have done.  You have said that these things haunt you, and images of the people that have died still prevent you from sleeping at night.  And, as my colleagues have said, this Commission provides a forum for people like yourself to come forward and to tell the truth about what happened, and we are glad that you are making use of that opportunity.  Thank you very much.