Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: If you state it like that, yes.  If I understand it the way you state it, that is correct.  Yes, if it was for the purpose of protecting the Government or to maintain the Government, keep them in power yes, I agree with you in both cases.

MR PHOSA: I'm a bit unhappy about you saying: "As dit was vir die doel", don't say: "If it was", I'm asking you - I don't give evidence, I want you to say was the reason for your eliminating Kondile - Mr Kondile, the same as that for eliminating these two young people?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: So you I would take it like Mr Erasmus, were bothered about what you had done after you killed Mr Kondile - you were worried about it?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, it something that does concern one.

MR PHOSA: You say it rather hesitantly - I really want to find out ...[intervention]

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes ...[intervention]

MR PHOSA: You don't have to concede to anything I say, if I'm saying something just disagree if you have to.  Were you really worried about it after you did it?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I was.

MR PHOSA: Just for the record - I'm not going to go into details regarding that one but just for the record, it was you and who else who killed Mr Kondile?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Mr Niewoudt.   I beg your pardon, I beg your pardon - Sir I am sorry, I thought that you referred to Mr Mthimkhulu and Mr Madaka's case and that is why I gave that reply, for no other reason.

MR PHOSA: No, well correct yourself and give us the answer then.

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Who, Mr Kondile - who killed Mr Kondile? It's another person who's not present here but I can give you his name, it was - I was involved but not physically, I did not physically kill him, I myself.

MR PHOSA: It's up to you - are you rather uneasy about who killed Mr Kondile?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, not at all.

MR PHOSA: Can I ask you for the third time, who killed Mr Kondile?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: A person by the name Otto, Roy Otto.

MR PHOSA: Only Otto?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I was there as well, Dirk Coetzee was also there, Mr du Plessis was also there.

MR PHOSA: Is the fact of your reply to say: "Otto did the physical killing but we were accomplices, in other words we were joint in this killing"?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: Now, with whom did you discuss that killing before doing it - besides the two of - besides the three of you, did you discuss that with anyone else before you did it -  I'm now talking about Mr Kondile?  I'm trying to check on the modus operandi to help you please, I'm trying to find out how things are done - with whom did  you discuss that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: It was myself, Mr Erasmus, Mr du Plessis.

MR PHOSA: I take it you discussed the necessity of killing Mr Kondile, the need for it?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

MR PHOSA: Was it also over a number of days - discussing that idea?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: Now, did you seek anyone's permission before you actually killed him - Mr Kondile, all along I'm talking about Mr Kondile?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR PHOSA: Was there someone senior to you that you could have spoken to in this division if you had wanted to - about that killing?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, Mr Erasmus was present and he was my senior.

MR PHOSA: Just to jump to the Mthimkhulu/Madaka situation, did you approach Mr Erasmus for his permission before killing those two?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, it was joint discussions where a decision was taken about what we had to do and in the end it was a joint decision.

MR PHOSA: No, no, just listen to my approach now and not the one that you've prepared.   I'm asking you, before you decided: "Now we are going to kill these two - eliminate these two", did you and the other three colleagues not Mr van - Mr Erasmus, did you - the three of you or two of you perhaps approach Mr Erasmus and say: "We now think for these reasons these two must be eliminated", didn't you do that?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR PHOSA: Were you listening attentively as he gave his story - his account yesterday and the day before?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I listened.

MR PHOSA: Now please correct me and the others will correct me, my understanding of the jest of his evidence was that he was approached at a stage when you and the others had already felt that it is necessary to eliminate these two, so you went to him to seek his permission, now is that wrong?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: The way I understand it, we considered all the possible options and discussed them, Captain du Plessis and I and in no legal manner we could find options open to us and then I said to him: "Let's go and see Mr Erasmus".
	And then we again discussed the activities of these people and the implications of their activities and the option that were open to us, we discussed those once again.  It was then said that it was apparent that we had no other option than eliminating these people, that's the way I remember it.

MR PHOSA: You are giving a long story, just listen carefully to the jest of my question.  Did you and the other one or others, approach Mr Erasmus for his permission?  Did you or did you not?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Mr du Plessis and I did approach him - Mr Erasmus.

MR PHOSA: But in the case of Mr Kondile - now listen carefully - Mr Kondile, you did not go to look for permission, seek permission from Mr Erasmus?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, we had, we had.

MR PHOSA: Well, I misunderstood you before - fine the record is there, so to sum it up, before you and others killed Mr Kondile, you got Mr Erasmus's permission?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That's correct.

MR PHOSA: And you similarly got his permission before you killed these last two - the other two?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Just in passing though - were there others even if they were not eliminated, who were being considered for elimination in this area?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Are you referring - to which period are you referring now?  Are you talking about 1982, during that period or after that period or what do you want to know about?

MR PHOSA: Let me give you free reign and just talk as you please.  As long as you were involved, any who were also considered for elimination?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I am aware of those.

MR PHOSA: In this area?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

MR PHOSA: Before I find out who they are, did you - do you know also of others when you were elsewhere - stationed elsewhere, who were even there considered for elimination for the same reasons?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

MR PHOSA: I'm watching you carefully, you are shaking your head obviously with uncertainty.  I get the impression that you're trying to recall, am I correct?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, it is the way in which you phrase your question, I've already said to you that there was a case in Swaziland but it was not a similar case.   We're not referring to a similar case to the this in the context of methods etc.

MR PHOSA: Let me make myself clear, I'm only dealing with elimination - the need to eliminate politicos who are troublesome, do you understand me?

NICHOLAS JACOBUS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I do understand you.  No, not where I was present.

MR PHOSA: And were the ones - the situation that you referred to now that you said: "There were others who were also considered for elimination in this area", who are those?