Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR RICHARD: Can you remember however that when you got to the house Mr Nicodemus Sono came to the vehicle and tried to speak to his son, do you recall that?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I do remember Mr Sono approaching the car.

MR RICHARD: Do you remember Mr Sono saying that his son was not a police spy?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I do remember.

MR RICHARD: Do you recall Mr Sono asking Mrs Mandela please to leave the boy with him, his father?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I do remember.

MR RICHARD: Yes.  And then you've told us that Mrs Mandela refused and the vehicle went back to the house and you say that Mrs Mandela went off in the vehicle and you never saw Lolo Sono again, is that correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now it was said to you by Mr Semenya, and you answered at one point that you didn't know Lolo Sono, do you remember that?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I still do say that because at the time I didn't know that it was Lolo Sono was being assaulted, I only realised that it was Lolo Sono when we went to Lolo Sono's place.

MR RICHARD: And you do know, am I correct in saying, is that the boy who was assaulted was the boy that Mr Nicodemus Sono identified as his son at the house, is that correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes it was the same boy.

MR RICHARD: Now Mr Cebekhulu I want to ask you one or two questions about ...(intervention)

UNKNOWN: Would you keep that as brief as possible.

MR RICHARD: Yes it will be very brief.  Mr Chairman I do act for two families, not just for one.

UNKNOWN: I know that.

MR RICHARD: Mr Cebekhulu I want to refer you to events that occurred on the 13th of February 1989 and particularly the killing of Maxwell Madondo.  Do you recall an instruction being given to you that steps should be taken to kill or at least apprehend Sibusiso Chili?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I do remember that.

MR RICHARD: Who gave you that instruction?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: It was Winnie.

MR RICHARD: What exactly was her instruction?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: She said we should look for Sibusiso and bring him with to Winnie's office.

MR RICHARD: Do you know why she wanted to have him brought in?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I do not know.

MR RICHARD: Did you then go ahead and try and apprehend Mr Chili?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes it was myself and Maxwell Madondo as well as another youngster, I have forgotten his name.

MR RICHARD: Is his name Killer?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Ja I think it was Killer.

MR RICHARD: And is it correct that you attempted to apprehend Mr Chili but you were beaten off and
you and Killer escaped but Mr Madondo did not?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Mr Madondo was in fact killed, do you know that?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I do.

MR RICHARD: Thereafter do you know of any instructions given by Mrs Mandela to set fire to the Chili house?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No she did not say the house should be burnt down but she said they must pay some revenge.

MR RICHARD: And the shooting of Mr Madondo?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Just one more question on Mr Sono, that's Lolo Sono.  Do you recall Mrs Mandela accusing Mr Sono of being a police informer?  That's Lolo Sono being a police informer.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes I do because he was assaulted at the garage and they kept on saying you are working with police.

MR RICHARD: And in your statement you have said that the reason that Mrs Mandela wanted to go to Mr Sono's house was to see if there were papers indicating that Lolo Sono was a police informer is that correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes that is true because when they put him into the car they were actually looking for that type of evidence.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: On whose behalf are you going to ask questions, on whose behalf.

MR MPOFU: I am acting for myself Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: But now how many people are you going to wanting to be cross-examined?

MR MPOFU: Well I have to put these questions, if Mr Cebekhulu is running back to England I may never have a chance.  He has made some serious defamatory allegations about me.

UNKNOWN: Well now I want to remind you that you have very limited time and I have to be fair to everyone so please keep your questions very brief and precise.

MR MPOFU: Yes that's my intention.

UNKNOWN: I am glad to hear that.

MR MPOFU: Mr Cebekhulu do you usually tell lies under oath?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No.

MR MPOFU: ....tell anybody that I had made frequent visits or unexplained visits to Brandfort?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Could you please give me some chance, I just want to think whether you did go to Brandfort or you did not go to Brandfort, I am just trying to recall.

YASMINE SOOKA: ... the witness by giving him some more detail.

MR MPOFU: ....answers the question please Mr Chairperson.  Did you tell anybody or not?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Now I think I remember.  You told us that Mrs Mandela was in Brandfort the day of the incident and you told that to me personally.

MR MPOFU: ....visits to Brandfort, yes or no?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No I didn't.

UNKNOWN: Wait there's an objection.  Mr Joseph.

MR JOSEPH: I can't possibly see how this is relevant to the inquiry, but I take it no further.  The examination as to whether there have been gross abuses of human rights.  This is this gentleman's own mission.

UNKNOWN: Can you just motivate your question please.

MR MPOFU: Yes well Mr Chairman the basis for my invitation there was that serious and defamatory statements were made by, about me particularly by this witness.  He is going to England in a few hours as I understand, that's the very basis of my presence here.  If I am curtailed in my questioning him I may never get the opportunity.

MR JOSEPH: There are many courts of law in England where my learned friend can pursue his action of defamation.

UNKNOWN: No I don't think I can accept that.  I think that Mr Cebekhulu is here, he is under oath, he is required to answer questions, but I remind you that you must please be - and precise.

MR MPOFU: Yes, well.  Your answer is that you never told anybody this, is that correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No I didn't.

MR MPOFU: Did you tell anybody this or did you not tell them?

UNKNOWN: Mr Cebekhulu would you please look at the attorney who is putting the questions to you and just leave your book alone now because you are tired, you are very confused and I want you to listen very carefully to the question and then answer the question please.

MR MPOFU: I will try and lead you.  As I understand your answer is that you never told anybody that I went to Brandfort, is that correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes that is correct.

MR MPOFU: Now just as the Deputy Chairperson said you must leave your book could you just turn to page 144.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: What page?

MR MPOFU: 144.  I will read it out to you.  At the top of the page
"Prior to the Richardson trial Katiza said that Mpofu was making unexplained visits to Brandfort.  The reason for Mpofu's fixation on Brandfort became evident during the Richardson trial".
Did you say this to anybody?  It's attributed to you, it says "Katiza said".  Is this one of the incorrect passages in the book?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I did explain beforehand that some of the allegations contained herein are not within my personal knowledge.

MR MPOFU: Did you tell anybody that you and I and Mrs Mandela went to Cape Town?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No.

MR MPOFU: Did you tell anybody that Mrs - well Judge Kaplan Satchwell told you that she had paid money to Doctor to say you are mad and that you must pretend to be mad when you get to court?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: That I was told by you and the attorney that I should act crazy.

MR MPOFU: Mrs Satchwell told you this?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No.