Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-09-14

MR SWANEPOEL: Is it correct that Mthu at that stage, lived in Extentia Hostel?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I said he used to stay in two places.  I don't know whether it was the time when he was staying in the hostel or the time he was staying at his family house.  I won't be able to say exactly whether he was still staying in the hostel or at his home.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, so is it correct that Mthu was merely walking along?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: You mean walking along with me?

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, walking along with you on the way to Extentia Hostel?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: And Mthu did not plan any crime before he started walking with you, you did not discuss any crime that was about to be committed, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: This particular incidents, I am not saying he did all the arrangements.  He only, what he did is, he pointed out the people.  He never said I must kill the people.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.  So he simply mentioned that they were ANC members, he never said kill them because they are ANC members, you killed them because of your general instruction to kill ANC members, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, so in fact, he did nothing wrong there?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: You are referring to what?

MR SWANEPOEL: Is it correct that that evening when you shot the ANC scholars that were singing, Mthu did nothing wrong?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.  He didn't do anything, I am the one who fired at the people.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, and is that also true for the incident where you shot December?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it will be true.

MR SWANEPOEL: All right.  Could you turn to paragraph 76 of your application, the paragraph that deals with the shoot out between yourself and the ANC members.  On that specific occasion you mentioned that you were accompanied by Jomo Ntsideka, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: And that you were then confronted by the ANC youth, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: They said they were coming to us as we were in a group.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, but their difficulty was with you specifically, not with Jomo Ntsideka, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I don't understand because I was not the only person who was going to be killed, they were going to kill all of us if they were - they were aiming to.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, I am getting to it.  The reason why they were going to kill all of you is that they were angry at you killing people in the township, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: It was because we were killing people, together with all the people who were with me, because when I arrived here, I wasn't the only one who was killing people.
	The Black Cats were also killing people.  We were killing the ANC people, the ANC regarded us as killers, so they were going to kill all of us.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.  Now, you said that the argument went as far as the ANC accusing me of being a KwaZulu Policeman and that they took your identity document, is that what your evidence was?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, they did steal it.   One boy took it while we were camping at Mkhonza's place.

MR SWANEPOEL: But in any event, as soon as the trouble started, as soon as it became clear that the matter was turning violent, Jomo ran away, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Not only Jomo, all the people who were with me, ran away.  Not Jomo alone.  I was the only one who was left at the scene.

MR SWANEPOEL: All right, in other words Jomo did nothing wrong that day, would you agree with me?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: That is correct sir.

MR SWANEPOEL: Could you turn to paragraph 85 of your application?  There you recount how you hid away from the Police when you returned from Zululand.
	You hid in Mr Maseko's shop at one stage, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, you are correct, even if you are putting it correctly.  If you follow it chronologically, I was first arrested by the Police and taken to Mangethi and Juta said I should be released, and they took me to Chris Ngwenya, that is where I was delivered.
	Since the Police didn't trust each other and they were many, there was a problem that they might reveal the situation so I had to run away and hide, so that when they come back to look for us, because we knew that they were still coming back to look for us, and therefore I went to Maseko's place.  That is what happened.

MR SWANEPOEL: Was Mr Maseko there?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, he is the one who put us through the back door of the shop, that is Maseko himself.

MR SWANEPOEL: For the record, I put it to you that Mr Maseko denies being there at that day, and he denies any knowledge of you hiding in his shop.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I will agree with him that he denies, however I want you to listen to me, because I am telling you it is him who took me through the back of the store.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, could you look at paragraph 5 of Exhibit E1 that was handed to the Committee.  I know you don't read Afrikaans, but I will roughly translate it for you.  That was the deposition made by yourself to the Investigating Team of the Attorney General's office some nine months after you deposed to your affidavit in support of your amnesty application.
	During your cross-examination the matter with the small boy running to the toilet, came to light and you say that it did happen, but it did not happen in this area, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: May you please slowly repeat your question.  I don't understand your question.

MR SWANEPOEL: During your cross-examination by Mr Patel, you said that the incident you described with the small boy running to the toilet and being shot by either you or by someone else, did happen but not in this area, is that correct, and that you made a mistake in your application?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, I said that.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.  Now roughly translated in Annexure E1 you say you cannot remember if it was at the first attack or the second of the attacks in Davel, but at one of those attacks a young boy ran from a house to an outside toilet.  Somebody in the group went after him and shot him in the toilet.  What do you say about that?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I said the shooting at the toilet, I made a mistake.  This young boy ran away towards the shop where they hacked him.  At the shop in Davel.  That is what I was trying to correct.
	That is the correction I made, I said I made a mistake, he got out of the house, they chased him and he fell next to the shop.

MR SWANEPOEL: In paragraph 72 of your application affidavit, you say a teenage boy came running out and ran into the outside toilets, I followed him and shot at him.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I said yesterday that I made a mistake, I didn't do that.  When the Police were investigating and also the post mortem will show that he was hacked, he wasn't shot.  I said I made a mistake.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, but you are making the mistake twice, in separate affidavits, ten months apart.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, I agree with you.  A mistake is a mistake and I accept that I made a mistake.  As I am saying that the Doctor who did the post mortem will confirm what I am saying now.  That was a mistake.
	The person who was injured there, there are post mortem reports who could show how he died.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.  Aren't you adapting your version as you get more information?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I don't understand exactly what your question intend to find.

MR SWANEPOEL: Aren't you changing your version of the events as more information becomes known to you?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Nobody told me that the boy ran to the shop.  It is not what I know, but it is what I am remembering.  There isn't any knowledge and I think there is a difference between knowledge and remembering.