Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

CHAIRPERSON: My simple question ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Sorry Chairperson we have a disturbance.

CHAIRPERSON: What disturbance do you have, is it from the passing cars?

INTERPRETER: No from somebody talking.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.  May I proceed?

INTERPRETER: Just a moment.
We may continue.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, I'm going to try and dilute my question.  You probably are not on the same page.  You've already testified that the prison warder had explained to you that the basis on which your application could succeed was that if the offences for which you sought amnesty were politically related.

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you had already during your criminal trial indeed pointed that out that the offences were committed within this context of the IFP and ANC fight, and that the reason why you were there as SDU members, you were there to protect the community.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now my question is in relation to the lie you committed yourself to during the various stages of you giving evidence.  Initially during your own criminal trial and subsequently when you were a State witness, in the matter of Neti, Mkhwanazi and Ntjulo, in which you lied about the details relating to how the offences were committed.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, I do understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why did you feel that you still were committed to the lies that you had given during the criminal proceedings, when you were applying for amnesty before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?

JOHN RADEBE: My reason is only one.  My reason is only one.  I would not make a false statement which I made in Court if I knew before that I should not associate myself with what happened in Court, I should only associate myself with the relevant facts of what happened during that incident, that I shot twice and Mkhwanazi shot twice.  If I knew that I was supposed to say what I know has happened on that particular day.  That the TRC does not associate itself with what happened in Court, I would only tell what I knew has happened  when I come to apply for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you feel that the TRC had to have any regard to what had been said by you during your criminal trial?  Did someone specifically say that to you?

JOHN RADEBE: No-one told me that.

CHAIRPERSON: So why did you hold that belief?

JOHN RADEBE: That's what I thought alone, then I thought that is so.  I am asking for forgiveness for that mistake which I did, to say what I said in Court before this Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you've already alluded to the fact that whilst you were in prison members of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission visited you, amongst others, Sissy Rampepe, is that not so?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it before you completed your application form?

JOHN RADEBE: It was after I filled in this form.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you apprize them of your understanding of what the process was all about?

JOHN RADEBE: What I wanted to know from them is when am I going to appear, then they told me that I must wait for a reply or a notice from the TRC office in Cape Town, that when would my application be before this Commission, that is then I will be assisted with the legal services of what is going to happen at the TRC.

MR LAX: So, Mr Radebe, when these people came to you and spoke to you in prison, didn't they explain the process to you?  You wanted to know when you would be appearing.  Didn't they say to you well before you can appear there are a whole lot of things that need to happen?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes they did.

MR LAX: And did they explain the process of investigation and of getting further particulars from you and replying to letters and so on?

JOHN RADEBE: May you please repeat that.

MR LAX: Did they explain the whole investigative process to you, that it could take time, that the investigators would need to get more information, that they would come and ask you questions, they might write you letters, etc?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes they told me that there would be people investigate, that they would go to the place of the incident and they would come to me and try to find out about further particulars.

MR LAX: Well didn't that suggest to you that they would want to know the truth about what happened, and that there was a difference between that truth and anything you might have said in Court?

JOHN RADEBE: I just told myself that they would go and investigate then I'll just wait the day where I would be told to come before this TRC.

MR LAX: So you wilfully misled the TRC's investigators when they came and asked you about what really happened?

JOHN RADEBE: I told them what I said I said in Court.

MR LAX: You misled them about the facts that really happened?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes the truth is what happened there.

MR LAX: When they wrote you letters and you replied to those letters, do you remember you wrote a letter to the Commission?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: Was that not the truth?

JOHN RADEBE: I wrote many letters.  But I believe that the contents of all those letters is the truth.

MR LAX: Well why were you telling the truth?  I thought you were going to stick to a lie?

JOHN RADEBE: Even in Court, some sections of my evidence was the truth.  In Court it's the mix of the truth and the lie.

MR LAX: You see let me show you page 157.  The Commission asked you about where your orders came from,

JOHN RADEBE: I do see.

MR LAX: And there you said
"...I didn't like to mention the names but as the Commissioners have asked for them I mentioned.  I could not disobey the orders as I took an oath I would die for South Africa."

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: So in spite of having taken an oath not to reveal your comrades, you knew at the time you wrote this letter that you had to tell the truth to the Commission and reveal your comrades.  Isn't that so?

JOHN RADEBE: Will you please repeat.

MR LAX: Even 'though you took an oath that you would die for South Africa, that you wouldn't disclose who your comrades were, here you are in the face of the Commission's request understanding that you must tell the truth, and so you disclose who your comrades and who your commanders were.  Isn't that so.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: So you didn't wait 'til today to tell us the truth.  You already began to tell the truth in letters to the Commission.

JOHN RADEBE: I wrote this letter after, in response to the letter from the TRC, as to whether what I did I did that under orders.  That is why I wrote that letter in that way.  Although I know that that would complicate issues because other comrades are not interested to be before this Commission because they think that I'll be testifying against them.  As this is the problem which I have now, because a person thinks that if you expose his name this way you put him in trouble.

CHAIRPERSON: That is not the question that was put by Mr Lax to you.

JOHN RADEBE: What is the question?

CHAIRPERSON: I think you understand the question Mr Radebe, very well.  You know, we just do not have time to waste, nor time to play games.  Do you understand.  This is an important process and it's also one which does not afford this Committee much time to waste.  And the question which was put to you by way of a statement by Mr Lax was that in your letter dated 2nd of April 1997 you disclosed names that you were reluctant to disclose but for the truth you were prepared to disclose.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you disclosed them because you knew that the Commission was dealing with the truth.

JOHN RADEBE: I read the letter from the TRC saying, asking me questions whether who gave me orders, and then I was not prepared, but because you are requesting me to disclose those names, here are the names.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not mislead the Commission by giving them wrong names.  Is that not so?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, I did not lie.