Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: In this statement you say that Mr Thulani Dlamini your co-accused, asked you to make an appointment with Doctor Asvat, you then made an appointment under a false name which Mr Mandla Mkwanyana, you do not know what happened until Mr Thulani Dlamini came back to you - I'm sorry, you did talk about - I'll read out two paragraphs to you as to what you said
"After I'd received a card"
This is the appointment card or registration card with Doctor Asvat.
"I left to the bottle store and when I arrived Thulani was waiting for me, I gave him the card and told him I am going, he said I must wait he will go with me.  After a few minutes his friend left with a BMW, we also left the store taking the route that passes the surgery.
 On our way when we were next to the park he took out a firearm, a 9mm 16 shooter, he cocked it and then said something is not right with this firearm"
He went further saying - quote:
"This woman gave me a pistol that is not working" - unquote
He then said to me he is going back to change the old pistol, I then left him, I went to Kliptown.  In the early hours of the evening at about 18H45, Thulani came to me in Kliptown, he asked me to take a walk with him.  
 We went to sit in a certain place where I usually sat, he then said he had made a blunder, I asked what happened, he said he went to the surgery and he shot and killed the doctor at the surgery.  I then got shocked because my fingerprint was taken at the surgery"
Now this is a statement you made to the Truth Commission Investigators, do you confirm this?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: That is true.

MR VALLY: Now, the Truth Commission was established after we had a democracy, why did you lie to them if you're saying what you're saying today is true?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: What I said to them I said without having prepared a statement for them, I wasn't prepared for their interview and I wanted to absolve myself because I didn't know much about the Truth Commission as to who it was made of and what sort of a body it was for me to speak the truth.

MR VALLY: In terms of time pressure Arch, I've got lot's more questions but maybe I should just round up then.
 Mr Mbatha, I put it to you that your statement which your attorney took you through has been carefully tailored to give it some political flavour which hasn't existed in either the first statement that you made to the police or the second statement that you made in court.  What's your response to that?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: What I'm going to say to you is this, the statement that I submitted to the police and the statement that was given to me by the police.  I did not give the police a statement, the police came with a ready made statement that I had to sign and agree to.

MR VALLY: ...[inaudible] Truth Commission Investigators?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Which one are you referring to?

MR VALLY: ...[inaudible] after you had been convicted and you were serving your sentence and the Truth Commission came to interview you in prison to ask you what had happened regarding the murder of Doctor Asvat.

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I think I'd already explained that I did not trust the Truth Commission, I hadn't heard about the Truth Commission and I didn't ask the Truth Commission to come to me.
 I didn't know anything about the Truth Commission and therefore I could not have entrusted everything to the Truth Commission.  I was not yet prepared to speak the truth at that time and when they came to interview me I did not trust them.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: (Has problem with microphone)  Thank you Chairperson.
 Mr Mbatha, I guess when the law tells us that perjury is visited with a maximum of two years plus a fine, it would mean nothing to somebody who is serving life, right?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Could you please repeat your question.

MR SEMENYA: When the law tells us that if convicted of perjury you might serve up to two years plus a fine, it would not be a serious consequence for somebody serving a life sentence.

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I'm aware of that.

MR SEMENYA: But I think let me give you this first page of the document and identify the signature that appears at the bottom.  Do you recognise the signature at the bottom of that page?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I do see it.

MR SEMENYA: Do you recognise the signature at the bottom of that page?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: (No English translation)

MR SEMENYA: It looks like who's?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: This MBA, this looks like my particulars.

MR SEMENYA: Are you saying the signature looks like your surname?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: It's mine.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] so long to admit your signature Mr Mbatha?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I was trying to identify the initials and it's incomplete.

MR SEMENYA: Can I have that page back?  I think my learned colleague Mr Vally, has dealt briefly with this document, it is undated but I assume it would not have been made longer than a year.

MR VALLY: I'm not sure which document you're referring to Mr Semenya.

MR SEMENYA: The one the witness has made to some TRC officials.

MR VALLY: I believe it was in the course of this year that it was taken from the witness.

MR SEMENYA: Paragraph 23 of the statement says the following
"I also certify that I will be able to testify to the public hearing of the TRC only if I have legal representation and witness protection"
Do you recall saying that?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, I do.

MR SEMENYA: You take an oath that you understand the contents of the declaration and that you consider the oath binding on your conscience, do you recall that?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I did swear to this statement, I was not sworn in before the statement was taken.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] an oath?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: No, I wasn't.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible]

MR VALLY: Mr Semenya, I'm informed that the drafting is the work of the investigator who took the statement but it was not taken under oath although it's phrased this way, the oath was not rendered so it's not an affidavit.

MR SEMENYA: Mr Mbatha, the point I'm trying to get with you is, in 1997 you do not say in a statement that you were sent by Mrs Madikizela-Mandela to go and kill Doctor Abu Bakker Asvat, is that right?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: What are you saying about 1997?

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] statement which is this year, you do not say that you Mr Mbatha killed Doctor Asvat on the instructions of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, is that right?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I've already explain that it's many times that people come to interview me, interrogate me and ask me a lot of questions and at that stage I did not know who to trust and who to tell the truth to, that's why I submitted that statement.  I didn't know anything about the TRC, therefore I could not just divulge everything and anything to people I did not know.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] at that point you were prepared to lie according to you?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I did not give an explanation as to why I killed Doctor Asvat in that statement.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] now, if I understand you correctly, you were tortured by the police and then gave a false statement, is that right? - in fact the police told you what to say.

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: That is true.

MR SEMENYA: What did the police say to you - under that compulsion, which was a lie?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I will not be able to say everything with regard to that statement unless I can get a copy of the statement and tell you which particular things I was forced to say.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] let's not play.  You were forced by the police to make a statement which was incorrect, is that correct?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, that is true.

MR SEMENYA: What did the police say you must say which was not correct?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: They said I should say I killed Doctor Asvat because I wanted to rob him.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible]