Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That information I was told by the people at the branch at Ladybrand.  There's also a file on Tax.  We had a file, I don't know if it still exists.  Which I doubt very much.  But there was also a file on Tax Sejanamane.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.  In that file did you not have information about his profile in the Orange Free State, prior to him going to live in Lesotho?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Undoubtedly there would have been.  There would have been a full history of his activities in that file.

MR MAPOMA: I just want to put to you what the family's view is about Tax, what they say.  If called to testify they will say so.  I just want to have a comment on this.  They say that Tax Sejanamane was your enemy, or let me say the Security Branch' enemy, even before he left South Africa, and when he was resident in Lesotho you were in search of him as the Security Branch.  That's their view.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That we were looking for him in Lesotho as well?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, that's the family's ...

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Now despite that now, are you saying that despite the fact that even prior to getting Betty to inform you about his whereabouts in Lesotho, you couldn't manage to get to know his addresses, his address in Lesotho?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: We didn't know his address in Lesotho, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, bear with me.
	And when you discussed about KK, the evidence of Mr Jagga is that they, he became aware that KK was involved in a shoot-out in Lesotho, only after that incident.  Did you hear that?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I heard what you said but I can't follow, I don't know what you're actually saying.  Which incident and ...

MR MAPOMA: Okay.  There's an incident in Lesotho which took place where a certain Mr Radebe was shot dead, he said Mr Matlageza Mphilo together with KK escaped.

CHAIRPERSON: That's the roadblock incident.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Yes, I'm aware of that, thank you Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: There is that incident that took place.  Now about that incident, Mr Jagga's evidence is that he only became aware of that incident after it occurred.  Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's put it into perspective, this is what Mr Matlageza is saying.  Wouldn't that be right?

MR MAPOMA: Pardon, Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: When you speak of this incident and when Mr Jagga was questioned about this, this emanated from a statement by one of, I think it's Matlageza, if I'm not mistaken.  The statement by Mnunya.  You'll find it on page 56 of the bundle.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Thank you Chairperson, I've got it, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: And what Mr Mapoma is asking you is that Mr Jagga when he testified he said he knew about this incident.  That's what Mr Mapoma is saying to you.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Now what I want to find out from you is whether prior to the operation to recruit KK, you were in possession of that information?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I think to the best of my recollection we were in possession of that information.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Mr Robertshaw.  Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma.  Mr Visser, any re-examination?

MR VISSER: Just one or two issues, Chairperson, with your leave.
	Mr Robertshaw, can you state from your own knowledge and recollection that your section was in fact in possession of the information about the shoot-out in Lesotho in which Mr Ngono was involved prior to the attempt or the recruitment of Mr KK?  Are you able to state that from your own knowledge and recollection?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I'm not sure when it was, it could have been, it could have been afterwards, it could have been before it, I'm not sure.  That's why I said it could be possible, it could have been before.

MR VISSER: Right.  The point made also to you is that on the probabilities, if one had to speculate, somebody, and that somebody was from your section of the Security Branch, killed four these victims.  Now you did not ask for amnesty for murder, is that correct?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And do you understand that you're not entitled, no matter what Order this Amnesty Committee makes, that if it should appear down the line that they were murdered, that you will not have amnesty for that?  You understand that?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I understand that, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser.  Any questions from the Panel?

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.
	The recruitment of someone like KK is not something that would happen in one quick interview.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: The recruitment of someone like KK would have taken quite some time.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And that's what's puzzled me about this plan with regard to KK, because you gave the order and the go-ahead for that plan and the plan was to try and recruit him and if you couldn't recruit him, abduct him.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well you had almost no hope whatsoever of recruiting him in a short conversation with him and the minute that possibility stopped existing, you would have had to, your members would have had to have abducted him?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson, but I never said to them they had to do it that specific day.

MR LAX: Well that's how they understood it.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I don't know if they understood it that way.  It was up to their discretion.  The recruitment of somebody is as you've said it, it doesn't take place in five minutes, it can take a year to get a person recruited.  If an opportunity also arose whereby they could have abducted him as well, then they could do that as well.  There's no hard and fast rules to people that are in the field.  You can give them directives, but you can't tell them exactly how to go about carrying out these orders, there's anything that can happen under the circumstances.

MR LAX: I hear you, I hear you.  It's just that the probabilities as they appear to me, of them being able to recruit him in one conversation when they first make contact with him, are highly unlikely, and you've conceded that.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I concede that, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And therefore, in reality they would have had no alternative but to therefore abduct him.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: If the opportunity arose, Chairperson, that is so.

MR LAX: Well if they made contact with him that would have been the only logical thing left for them to do, in terms of your order.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Once again, if the circumstances permitted it, yes.

MR LAX: You see that's why it seems clear to me that they went straight to the police in Lesotho to try and get him arrested, because there was no, I mean there was just no way they could have recruited him in such a short time.  And therefore it seems logical that the operation would have been to abduct him.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: As I've said, Chairperson, if they weren't able to recruit him, then they were to abduct him.  But I concede as well, you don't recruit somebody in five minutes, it's logical.

MR LAX: I'm just saying that it certainly doesn't make sense to me that they would even have tried to recruit him, they would have just gone for the abduction.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: They may have seen the situation like that, Chairperson.