Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: The purpose was to look for illegitimate weapons and ammunition which was entering our towns and which was used to kill or harm old people and innocent people.

MR KNOETZE: After this assault on these black people, did you then go to the Radora Crossing where you would then have the roadblock?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That's correct.

MR KNOETZE: What happened there?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: On our arrival there, Mr Meiring put us in specific positions, because he had the experience in order to have a roadblock.   Me myself, Matthew's and Diedericks was told to act as traffic officials.   Two other people, Visser, Etienne Visser and Mr Jaco Badenhorst, was told to stand behind the chevron board.

MR KNOETZE: Okay, what happened then?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: It was decided that the Sentra would be the emergency vehicle, with the blue light on top of it, and Kloppers and Martins would then drive in the Mercedes Benz towards Ventersdorp and as soon as they will flash their headlights to us, we'd know that this is the necessary target to pull off, and the target we would have had to pull off would only have black occupants.

MR KNOETZE: And did you do that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, we pulled off vehicles.

MR KNOETZE: Before we get to the Honda and the Cressida, can you tell us about the other vehicles?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: There were several vehicles pulled off.  At one stage a vehicle was pulled off with a black person in it, and this black person resisted us, because he didn't want us to search his vehicle, and Klopper hit the man on the head with a baton and I stood watching this.

MR KNOETZE: Let's interrupt ourselves, in the criminal proceedings later you were found guilty of that assault as well?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, I was found guilty thereof.

MR KNOETZE: In the sense that you should have foreseen it and you were an accomplice?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That's correct.

MR KNOETZE: And you also ask for amnesty with regards to that assault?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That's correct.

MR KNOETZE: Can you remember anything else with regards to the other vehicles before you pulled the Honda and the Sentra off?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: At a later stage there was another vehicle, it was a big pick-up, Ford pick-up truck.   The car wouldn't start and we were told to push the car so that it could start, and we did that, and the vehicle drove off.

MR KNOETZE: These vehicles, were they searched?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: All the vehicles were searched, Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: With what purpose?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: The purpose was to try and find illegitimate weapons and ammunition.

MR KNOETZE: And can the committee make the reference that no such weapons were found?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No weapons were found, illegal weapons, that is.

MR KNOETZE: Evidence was given in front of the committee with regards to questions that was asked to the occupants of the vehicles.   What's your comment on that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No questions were asked while the vehicles were searched.

MR KNOETZE: I refer you specifically to questions with regards to political affiliations?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Nothing, Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: So then the Honda and the Cressida came onto the scene, and the committee know that they were stopped, or they stopped first and they both arrived there simultaneously.   Would you please take it from there?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Once they were both at the roadblock, the vehicles approached us, the Ballade was in the front and behind it the Cressida.   The Honda was pulled off.   Inside the Honda there were three people, three men.   I walked towards the vehicle.   I commanded the driver to get out, and I told him to go and sit on the ground.   The two passengers who were with him also got out and they also sat down on the ground.   The vehicle was searched where the people sat themselves as well as the boot.   The people in the Toyota Cressida did not want to get out of the car under any circumstances and then Klopper walked closer on the driver's side, he shattered the windscreen with his baton and all the passengers in that car then got out.

MR KNOETZE: Maybe, while we're there, maybe we must just stop.   Is it also so that you put together a sketch plan of the scene?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: Mr Chairman, may I beg leave to hand up copies of this to the committee, which I think may be of some assistance?   It would be EXHIBIT 7.
SKETCH PLAN HANDED UP AS EXHIBIT 7

MR KNOETZE: Is it correct that you also submitted an explanation for this sketch?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR KNOETZE: Mr Chairman, what I did with mine is to write in precisely what everything is, so that one doesn't have to refer back every time.   Let us begin with A, what is A?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Point A is the so-called Radora Crossing.

MR KNOETZE: And B?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Point B is the Ventersdorp Road.

MR KNOETZE: In other words traffic that moves from left to right on that part that you've indicated there, will move towards Ventersdorp?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That's right, yes.

MR KNOETZE: And C is on the other side of the road?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct, Mr Chairperson, that's from Ventersdorp to Krugersdorp.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't, I haven't really studied this, but I wonder, have you discussed this with the other people?

MR KNOETZE: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Have you discussed this sketch with Mr Prinsloo, Ms Van der Walt, Mr Dreyer, (Indistinct)?

MR KNOETZE: No, I have not, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I sincerely hope that it's not going to cause so much dispute, because we don't contemplate being drawn to a point where we'll have to go for an inspection in loco as a result of some disputes arising from around this point.

MR KNOETZE: Well so do I, Mr Chairman, but I don't foresee such disputes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible to deal with other aspects of the matter for the time being, to leave this aside for a while?

MR KNOETZE: It is possible, Mr Chairman, but I thought that it would make it clear to the committee where everything just took place, I thought it would be of some assistance, for instance to indicate this so-called line of people that were about to shoot and the line of people sitting as people about to be shot.   It's just helpful in my view, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo... (intervention).

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: What is your attitude towards this?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, could I take instructions on this, we don't know, so... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: All right... (intervention).

MR PRINSLOO: (Inaudible).

CHAIRPERSON: I dread even looking into it, I won't like to do that.   Let's deal with other aspects of the matter if we can, and maybe tomorrow, by tomorrow Mr Prinsloo would have had a look at it, and then we can talk about it.

MR KNOETZE: As you please, Mr Chairman.   Let us come back to this roadblock, what you've already said is that the Honda was searched, the people got out?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct, yes.

MR KNOETZE: The Cressida was searched and the people got out?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR KNOETZE: After the side windscreen was shattered?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: You then, as part of that search, did something personal, of which you were found guilty later on?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, I did, I stole a leather jacket.