Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-27

CHAIRPERSON: What the counsellor wants to know is this, as you used to sleep at your workplace during your working days, what made you to decide to go back to the hostel on Wednesday instead of staying over at your workplace?   Do you understand the question?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: It was just a coincidence, because I came back on Thursday also.

MR BERGER: Now, Mr... (intervention).

MS CAMBANIS: Sorry, can I just get some clarification on this point?   You said, did I get you correctly when you said that you would sleep at work when it is a mampara week?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MS CAMBANIS: And your definition of a mampara week is the week when you would not be paid but you would work even on Saturday and on Sunday?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, that was the previous week.

MS CAMBANIS: So were you paid fortnightly?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MS CAMBANIS: And then on the week that you would be paid, where would you sleep?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I would come back and sleep at Kwamadala Hostel.

MS CAMBANIS: In other words, the weekend preceding - when you wouldn't be paid, you would sleep at work and then the following week when you would be paid, then you'd sleep at the hostel, is that your evidence?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, sometimes I would come back to the hostel if there was a need for me to do so.

MS CAMBANIS: Would you come back during the week or would you come back during the weekend?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I would come back even if it's during the week, but I used to come back mostly on weekends.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbatha, I thought I understood from you that you spent most of your time at work and sleeping at work, and occasionally you would spend weekends at the hostel, is that right?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, I would be present during some weekends.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just see whether we can get clarity on this.   Did you always sleep at your place of employment?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: How often would you return to the hostel?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I would come back after knocking off on a Friday, if it's still early I would go to the hostel and leave on a Monday.    Sometimes I would just come or sometimes I wouldn't, I would stay over.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the position that you would return to the hostel during the week at times?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, if I happened to knock off early, I would go to the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and sometimes you would only go to the hostel over the weekend?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether that clarifies, madam.

MR BERGER: Mr Mbatha, do I then understand you correctly to say that you actually spent more time at the hostel than just the occasional weekend?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Not most of the times.

MR BERGER: I didn't get that translation.

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, I used to go to the hostel and stay there, but most of the times I would be at my workplace.

MR BERGER: And in order for you to get to the hostel, am I correct that you would have to take public transport from Vereeniging to Kwamadala?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: How did you get to the hostel?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I would take a taxi to Terela, and I would alight at the robots.

MR BERGER: And you would have to pay for that taxi?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, the transport is not free, public transport is not for free.

MR BERGER: So unless you had a need to return to the hostel during the week, it was cheaper for you to sleep at work during the week and only return to the hostel on weekends, am I right?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, that used to help me also, but most of the time I would stay over because of knocking off very late.

MR BERGER: And so the reason you went to the hostel on Wednesday, the 17th of June, was because there was a need, am I right, it wasn't just a pure coincidence?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I said it was a coincidence.

MR BERGER: And the need, I put it to you, was because you knew that there was going to be an attack on Boipatong that night, that's why you didn't sleep at work, that's why you returned to the hostel that afternoon, correct?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: If I knew that, Mr Berger, I wouldn't hid that now, I wouldn't mention all the people that I injured there during that incident and decide to hide this simple information or minor information.

MR BERGER: It's not so minor, because then we would go in to all the meetings that were held before the attack, wouldn't we?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I regarded it as a minor thing, because no-one would die in such meetings, there were no murders or deaths.

MR BERGER: At the stadium, on the 17th of June - well let me ask you this, when the alarm went off, you went to the stadium, correct?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I did not hear the siren, I didn't even go to the stadium, I was not yet there at the hostel at the time.

MR BERGER: Well let me read to you what you say in your affidavit at page 210(I), the second paragraph on that page, you say
"On the evening of the 17th of June 1992, the alarm went off and all of us went to the stadium."
Is that not correct?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No, that is not true.

MR BERGER: But you confirmed this yesterday, Mr Mbatha, as being true?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No, all I said was this, when I arrived, the people were from the stadium.   I inquired as to what was happening and they said it was time go and attack, that is when I said, I mentioned that (Indistinct)... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbatha, we understand what your evidence is often concerning your role on the day in question.  I think what's being put to you is that at the commencement of your evidence in chief, you were asked to confirm the contents of certain documents which were made available to you.   One of those documents contains the statement that counsel has just put to you, do you understand that?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, I do understand that, but this issue about the stadium is confusing me, I did not go to the stadium on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we understand that.   I think what you're being asked is the simple question as to, if you didn't go to the stadium, why then did you tell us that the contents of the statement that was read to you were accurate?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I would like to apologise for that, that was a mistake from my side.

MR BERGER: You go on in your statement, the next sentence, you say
"There..."
meaning at the stadium:-
"...Quonquo said that we must attack Boipatong."
Now, leave aside the point that what you're referring to is what was said at the stadium, was it reported to you that Quonquo had said that you must attack Boipatong?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, I was told.

MR BERGER: You were told that Quonquo had told the people at the stadium that they must attack Boipatong?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And is it correct that you were told that Quonquo said, "We must attack Boipatong because we have had enough with the people of Boipatong"?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: Now that's all the people living in Boipatong, am I right?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, I can say so, because it was mentioned, they mentioned all the people of Boipatong.

MR BERGER: And so the attack was an attack on all the people of Boipatong, correct?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, but it was also mentioned that the people that were most wanted were the defence people.

MR BERGER: Why is there not a mention in your statement at 210(H) to (I), not a word about the self defence units, why is that?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I'm the one who did not mention that.

CHAIRPERSON: We understand that.   I think the question is, why didn't you mention that in your statement?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No, I do not have a reason, I do not have a reason for omitting that.