Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR JOSEPH: having found their way from the Manse to the home of Mrs Mandela, is the allegation that these three young adults were being sexually abused by a cleric who from time to time was not present, was not holding them behind a locked door, did not have a guard looking after them and what we are expected to believe is that in order to save and to protect them from this abuse, these three men were taken to the house of Mrs Mandela where they were being protected. Now, I find that incomprehensible.
 From what you were able to observe from the physical appearance - a cursory physical appearance of these men, would you say that they were capable of - if they wished to leave the Manse, to have left the Mans on their own free will - from what you saw?

TATO MOTLANA: Mr Chairman, if I may say so and in response to what you've asked me, my lawyer - my very bright young lawyer, in fact told me yesterday that I'm going to be asked exactly that question: "You're going to be asked in what state they were" and I said to him: "I don't know in what sense they'll be asking that question, if they ask that question from a doctor I would have said to them I didn't examine them".
 As a doctor I would have to produce records of that examination but the kind of question you're asking is purely speculative  There are three young men I'm looking at and I'm asked: "Can they run away".

MR JOSEPH: Yes.

TATO MOTLANA: Well, I don't know, they probably could.

MR JOSEPH: Could they walk away?

TATO MOTLANA: Oh, they could have walked.

MR JOSEPH: Did you carry them from your motorcar anywhere?  Were they able to move about like any healthy man sitting over here?

TATO MOTLANA: Oh, yes.

MR JOSEPH: Can you think of any reason based on your observations, to support a view that if they during the day when this particular Minister was not present, this particular Minister who's alleged to have sodomised them, if they themselves wanted to remove themselves from that particular establishment they had the physical capability of walking to the door, opening the door and walking into the street and leave that particular establishment?

TATO MOTLANA: Mr Chairman, I must say that - all things being equal, that would be the condition - one would say they could have walked away.

MR JOSEPH: And they are certainly not children - there is talk of different cultures and use of different words in different cultures, in my culture a child is a person under the age of 10 and 11 - that I would call a child.  Are you happy with that?

TATO MOTLANA: No, I'm not.

MR JOSEPH: What would a child be?

TATO MOTLANA: In my culture children would be much older than that.

MR JOSEPH: Okay.  What age ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I've got to say ...[intervention]

MR JOSEPH: I take the point.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, let me give you one more ...[intervention]

MR JOSEPH: I'm finished.

CHAIRPERSON: Pardon?

MR JOSEPH: I'm finished.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, how wonderful.  Any other?  Yes Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Mr Chair.  Doctor, when you went to see Mrs Madikizela Mandela, was there anyone else with her?

TATO MOTLANA: I can't remember.  No, I don't recall.

MR RICHARD: Your negotiations were with her direct?

TATO MOTLANA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: And it was Mrs Mandela who said yes or no to the children being released?

TATO MOTLANA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kuny?

MR KUNY: Doctor Motlana, it's Mr Kuny representing Miss Falati.  There's only one issue that I want to canvass with you and that's the question of access to these young men when you came to Mrs Mandela's house.  Now, it's being put to you that there was a note by Reverend Storey in which he says that you went to Mrs Mandela's house on the 6th of January, do you recall that?

TATO MOTLANA: I don't recall the date but I recall going to Mrs Mandela.

MR KUNY: Would that have been about the time when you went to Mrs Mandela's house?

TATO MOTLANA: That would be about the time.

MR KUNY: And you went to her house after you'd had a telephone conversation with Bishop Storey - you say in your statement that you had a telephone discussion with Peter Storey.

TATO MOTLANA: That is so.

MR KUNY: Was that what prompted you to go to Mrs Mandela's house?

TATO MOTLANA: No, I was actually asked by Mr Storey.  As I state here: "The Reverend Peter Storey asked me"

MR KUNY: Can I just ask you, after you had been to the house, did you then again speak to Bishop Storey and report to him the substance of your visit?

TATO MOTLANA: I probably did.

MR KUNY: When you were pressed on this issue about the question of access, your evidence was that you were not refused access to the youths.

TATO MOTLANA: No, my answer is that I did not ask for access.

MR KUNY: Are you sure about that?

TATO MOTLANA: Good heavens, what must I say?

CHAIRPERSON: The witness has answered and I think that you should accept the answer.

MR KUNY: I press you on that issue because when you were pressed, you said that your memory is not that good.

TATO MOTLANA: That is so, my memory is not that good, it has never been good.

MR KUNY: So is it possible that during that visit you actually did ask for access and were refused?

TATO MOTLANA: Mr Chairman, ...[indistinct] sense to me, if my going to Mrs Mandela had been to examine the children, then the question of access becomes important but if my request from the clergy was to have the children released the question of access, access, doesn't arise, so I couldn't have asked for access.

MR KUNY: What was your view at that stage about the veracity of the rumours that these boys were being held against their will?

TATO MOTLANA: I had no proof that they were being held against their will.

MR KUNY: Would one obvious way of trying to ascertain whether they were being held against their will not have been to have spoken to the boys themselves?

TATO MOTLANA: Mr Chairman please, I did not go there to debate the question of whether the boys were held against their will or not.  I'd been asked by the clergy to try and have those boys released into their custody ...[indistinct], that was my mission which I would say was accomplished.

MR KUNY: Did you ask Mrs Mandela whether the boys were being held against their will?

TATO MOTLANA: Let me repeat for the 10th time, I did not because that question did not arise.  I'd been asked to try and facilitate the release of those boys, that was my mission.

MR KUNY: And did you request that they be released immediately?

TATO MOTLANA: That I can't recall, I just asked that they be released.

MR KUNY: Was it not your intention to secure their release as soon as possible?

TATO MOTLANA: Clearly, as soon as possible but not immediately.

MR KUNY: But you can't account for the 10 day period when they are not?

TATO MOTLANA: No, I can't account for that.

MR KUNY: If I may just - one other issue, I don't know if you have Bishop Storey's memorandum before you.

TATO MOTLANA: It is here.

MR KUNY: He states on page 6 of his memorandum at the top
"PJS"
That's Bishop Storey himself.
"John Reece, Sizwe Mbanda see Motlana who has just returned from Lusaka"
Do you recall that?

TATO MOTLANA: Yes, I had been to Lusaka, I don't know in what context this is stated here but I had been to Lusaka.

MR KUNY: Do you recall - and Bishop Storey gave evidence in this regard, that he hadn't wanted to go to see the youths on his own, he felt that was not wise, do you recall any discussion regarding that issue?

TATO MOTLANA: I do.

MR KUNY: And if you look at the following sentence, it says
"Motlana confirms wisdom of PJS's refusal to go to Mandela's house"
Do you confirm that?

TATO MOTLANA: I confirm the fact that I think I advised - I'm not quite sure now, I think I did advise Peter Storey not to go to the Mandela's house but as he had requested me, I would go.