Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: Sorry to question you again, reverting to yourlast answer that if the police had done their job it would nothave been necessary to kill the deceased, you remember in yoursupplementary affidavit which you wrote last month you said, andI am reading to you from it,
  "On the 25th of February 1992 I armed myself with a firearmand followed him (that is the deceased) to the Kroonstad taxirank as he was coming from court where he had appeared on chargesand murder and attempted murder of ANC members".
do you remember saying that in your affidavit?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: So he was being charged with the offences ofmurder and attempted murder and facing those charges at the timeyou killed him, is that so?

ROLAND PETROS: No, he hadn't been charged with murder, hewas accompanying his gang who was attending court in connectionwith the murder case.  It was not himself who had been charged.

<UNKNOWN>: Well why did you say this in your affidavit,your attorney prepared it for you, he read it over to you, youswore to it?

ROLAND PETROS: Maybe I speak Afrikaans, my attorney speaksEnglish, maybe there was some language confusion.

<UNKNOWN>: How many people were charged with the deathof the deceased besides yourself?

ROLAND PETROS: Four, four people.

<UNKNOWN>: What happened to them?

ROLAND PETROS: One was killed, the State withdrew the caseagainst one of them, one became State witness and the one wassentenced with me.

<UNKNOWN>: To your knowledge is this gang the Three MillionGang no longer in existence or is it still in existence?

ROLAND PETROS: I don't know whether they still exist or notbut if they were still in existence there would be no peace inthis community.

<UNKNOWN>: You were a member of the self-defence unitwere you?

ROLAND PETROS: That's right.

<UNKNOWN>: Was the self-defence unit itself also an informalorganisation or was it a formal, properly constituted organisation?

ROLAND PETROS: It was a properly constituted body formed aspart of the Youth League.

<UNKNOWN>: So you were a member of the self-defence unitand the ANC Youth League?

ROLAND PETROS: They were almost one and the same thing, theself-defence unit was slightly separate because some of the peoplewho belonged to the defence unit also belonged to the Youth League,they were more-or-less the same thing.

<UNKNOWN>: The deceased was not a member of any politicalorganisation was he?

ROLAND PETROS: As I said this person had made a statementthat he was a member of the IFP, that's all I know.  But accordingto how I saw it that was just a smokescreen really.  I don't reallybelieve he was a member of the IFP.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Petros it seems to me that there is someconfusion about the two meetings which apparently took place. If I understand your evidence correctly the whole community ora large part of the community attended a meeting at which certaindecisions were taken, right, and later whether on the same dayor on the next day there was a meeting of the self-defence unit.

ROLAND PETROS: That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Did you attend both of these meetings or onlyone of them or neither?

ROLAND PETROS: I only attended one.

<UNKNOWN>: Which one did you attend?

ROLAND PETROS: The meeting of the self-defence unit.

<UNKNOWN>: So you don't know what decisions were takenat the other meeting except as far as you were informed by theparticular informer?

ROLAND PETROS: That's right.

<UNKNOWN>: And you also don't know who the person waswho conveyed this information because you arrived late at theself-defence unit's meeting?

ROLAND PETROS: That's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: So when you arrived at the meeting, the meetingof the self-defence unit, the discussion had already been disposedof or what exactly happened?

ROLAND PETROS: It was more-or-less towards the end of the meetingthat I arrived there.

<UNKNOWN>: And you said that you got the firearm froma Sergeant Jacobs?

ROLAND PETROS: That is correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Were you friends, you great friends with him?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes, yes.

<UNKNOWN>: And did you ever discuss these problems withhim, namely the fact that the police in Kroonstad were not attendingto the community's complaints and grievances?

ROLAND PETROS: No, never.

<UNKNOWN>: But you had full confidence in this man?

ROLAND PETROS: Yes as he also had confidence in me.

<UNKNOWN>: Would it not perhaps have helped if you hadspoken to him about this matter?

ROLAND PETROS: No.

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Petros in your evidence you've stated thatyou had lost confidence in the police and you had lost confidencein the legal system itself and this is what led the communityto take its decision on the 23rd of February 1992, is that correct?

ROLAND PETROS: That's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Now are you able to enlighten this committeeas to what attempts had been made by the community at large toconvey its problems which it had with the Three Million Gang tothe police in Maokeng?

ROLAND PETROS: We wrote letters to the then Minister of Lawand Order Adrian Vlok to try and address this problem but nothingcame of it.  If I remember correctly there was a Captain Duriesent here to try and solve the problems, the problem was onlysolved temporarily because he was then transferred if my memoryserves me correctly.  The offices in the South African Policehere in Kroonstad even, the General in the Free State vicinity,they were approached regarding the situation here but absolutelynothing was done to solve the problem.

<UNKNOWN>: Now the Captain that you have mentioned CaptainDurie, who sent him?  Are you aware?

ROLAND PETROS: I am not sure who sent him here.

<UNKNOWN>: When did the Three Million Gang come into existenceMr Petros?

ROLAND PETROS: I can't remember exactly, I think it was in1990, or maybe 1989, I am not sure.

<UNKNOWN>: You have stated in your supplementary affidavitthat initially the Gang committed pure criminal acts, that theGang ultimately took on a political character, do you recall makingthat statement in ...(intervention)

ROLAND PETROS: That's correct.

<UNKNOWN>: Now what was this political character it assumed? What was it doing for it to assume a political character fromthat of being purely a criminal gang?

ROLAND PETROS: I am sorry could you repeat the question itwas quite a long question?

<UNKNOWN>: Let me make it simpler.  In your supplementaryaffidavits you've stated that when the Three Million Gang startedit started as purely a criminal gang but that later on it tookon a political character, I just want to know on what made youto conclude that it had taken a political character?

ROLAND PETROS: These persons claimed that they were supportersof the IFP and they wore red pieces of cloth around their necks.
 Thank you, Mr Chairman.  The applicant now on the stand is tobe cross-examined today.  May I ask that he retakes the oath.

UNKNOWN: Still under oath

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yesterday you testified that in the year 1990you were the organiser of the Youth League and you were electedthe General Commander of the SDUs, is it correct?

UNKNOWN: Correct, sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Will I then be correct to state that all actionsor activities taken by the SDUs were taken as a result of yourcommands?

UNKNOWN: Indeed.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Petros testified yesterday as to how he killedDuvidi.  Do you know as to who gave him that instruction?

UNKNOWN: By that time I was already in prison.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You don't have any idea as to how did he getthe command to kill?

UNKNOWN: Actually I never gave them an individual command,it was a general command from the onset.  I commanded them todefend the community in all the way they can.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you aware of a meeting that took placeon the 23rd January 1992?

UNKNOWN: I wasn't aware, but we usually held such meetings. I was informed about the meeting.