Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-21

MR BERGER: And she gave evidence that after the siren rang you went to the stadium.  You came back after that to fetch your weapon and a "lappie" to put around your head.  Is she not telling the truth?

MR MAZIBUKO: When she says I went to the stadium, after this I ...(indistinct), she's not telling the truth.   I only went to the stadium when the women returned from the stadium, because she told us that we were instructed to go back, only the men should go to the stadium.  Then I realised that this is a serious matter and I decided to go to the stadium.

MR BERGER: But she never gave evidence to that effect, did she?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct, she never gave that evidence.

MR BERGER: Can you think of any reason why Theresa Mofokeng should give false evidence against you?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I don't know whether there is a reason why she said that because even in Court the State witnesses were contradicting each other.  Some of them said I had a knopkierrie and some of them said I had an axe, so I can't say why she decided to give that evidence.

MR BERGER: There's something I don't understand, Mr Mazibuko.  You and a number of your co-applicants have given evidence that your instructions when you left kwaMadala were that you were going to Boipatong to kill the members of the SDUs.  And you've all been, not all of you because Mr Victor Mthembu gave a different story, but a number of you have been very careful to make the point that you were only going to attack the SDUs, correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that's correct, we were going to attack the members of the SDU.

MR BERGER: Because not everyone in Boipatong was a target, in fact the vast majority of the residents of Boipatong were not targets, would you agree?

MR MAZIBUKO: I'll put it this way.  For myself people who were the targets were the SDU members.  If I had managed to come across one of the members of the SDU I would make sure that I would kill him.

MR BERGER: It was not only in your mind, those were your instructions, instructions given to you and all the attackers, by Mr Mkhize, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that's correct, that we were going to attack the SDUs.

MR BERGER: And when you got to Boipatong and you had that altercation with what you believed was a Self Defence Unit, do you remember you saw some people, you fired at them and they ran away?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that's correct, I remember.

MR BERGER: And according to your statement they never fired back, correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: I cannot say that they did not fire back because there were a few shots that I heard, so I cannot exactly say that they shot back or not.

MR BERGER: No, no, have a look at page 117 at the bottom, you said
"When we got to Boipatong we came across a group of Self Defence Units."
Third last line on that page you say:
"They were shot at."
In other words your group shot at them.
"They ran away.  The people ..."
... meaning the attackers.
"... followed them and began to break windows."
Now if they had shot back at you you would have said so, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: Now what happened in that split second that changed, according to you, this attack on Self Defence Units into an attack on the entire township of Boipatong?  That is what I don't understand.

MR MAZIBUKO: Those people who ran into the yards are the people who caused that other people should also be attacked, because I said we ran after them, so we could not find them because they ran into houses.  So those people who entered the houses maybe decided that we should search for them into the houses.  That is where now they saw children and women and they decided to attack them.

MR BERGER: But not one of you could have believed that young children, old people, pregnant women, not one of you could have believed that they were members of Self Defence Units.  So what was it that turned this, on your version, disciplined group of attackers into madmen, killing and destroying everything in your wake, what was it?

MR MAZIBUKO: I will put it this way.  A person who had a spear or a gun and who shot at a woman, I cannot say why he did that because all of us we knew that we are going to attack the SDU members, because a woman will never kidnap me in town and burn me.  So anybody who attacked a woman with a spear, I don't know what he was thinking.  It was his own decision.

MR BERGER: So according to you the only legitimate targets were the young men of the township?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And yet of the deceased and the injured, the young men form a minority.  The vast majority of people killed and injured were women, children and old people.  You can't explain that can you?

MR MAZIBUKO: Unfortunately I cannot explain because when I hear that the majority of the people who were attacked were women, old people and children I was hurt because I could not understand why this happened.  I was really touched by that.  When I was still living in the township I was never ever harassed by women and children.

MR BERGER: Well I'm glad, Mr Mazibuko, that you don't use the excuse of the ndelezi to justify the massacres.  That is so, am I right, you don't use the ndelezi as an excuse for justifying the killing of women and children and old people?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And I'm going to suggest to you that there is no explanation for that apparent change of plan from attacking SDUs to attacking the entire township, and that the real reason that the entire township was targeted and attacked is because those were the orders that you were given before you left kwaMadala, that you were going to attack Boipatong to destroy the entire township, isn't that right?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, that is not correct.

MR BERGER: If the SDUs were your targets, why were you destroying property, why were you breaking windows?

MR MAZIBUKO: I will explain it this way.  When we started breaking the windows it is because we could not see the members of the SDU.  They ran into the houses, so we wanted to enter into these houses so that we can search for them.
	If I had seen maybe one boy jumping out of the window I wouldn't have left him, I would make sure that he is dead.

MR BERGER: I'm sure you did make sure that a number of people were dead, didn't you?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR BERGER: How many people did you make sure were dead?

MR MAZIBUKO: I'm sorry, I did not understand the question.  Well I did not understand the question, I'm sorry about that.

MR BERGER: Well what did you think the question was, Mr Mazibuko?

MR MAZIBUKO: I thought that the question says whether I'm sure that many people died.  That is why I said the answer "yes" because I know exactly that many people died that day.

MR BERGER: Your response to me was
"If I had a seen a boy jumping out of a window I would have made sure that he was dead."
I said to you: 
"I am sure you did make sure that people were dead."
And you said: 
"Yes."
You say you misunderstood that question?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I repeat that.  I ask you to forgive me, I did not understand the question.

MR BERGER: Isn't Mr Victor Mthembu correct when he says, and I asked him
"Why were young babies killed?"
And he said:
"Because a snake gives birth to another snake."
Wasn't he right?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well he was not correct, that is my feeling.  Because he put it in Zulu, maybe it has a different meaning but according to me when you are a pastor you cannot give birth to a pastor, you can give birth to a criminal.  When he says that maybe that is how he understood it or maybe that is what he knows, that a snake gives birth to a snake.

MR BERGER: Mr Mazibuko, you understand the import of that phrase.  Mr Victor Mthembu was saying the children were killed because they were children of parents living in Boipatong with whom he had a fight.