Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: And then, if we could go to the paragraph that starts
"So your point is that there isn't a pattern developing" - interjection  FH - "No, there isn't a culture of violence" - interjection
"Not in the Conservative Party"
Is that an unambiguous statement of what the policy of the Conservative Party is?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, in the Conservative Party - no violence, the violence was outside and we had to start preparing for when the violence came our way.

GEORGE BIZOS: Right, now can we go on?
"If one looks"
That's the next one:
"If one looks at the sort of statements that are made by the leadership of the Party - yourself included, these are statements that talk repeatedly about the need for resistance - armed resistance.  I've looked through the files, there is a pile of press cuttings, all of the same direction.  Now, admittedly none of those are direct calls to arms but is not the open ended nature of this sort of threatening talk amounting to a tacit approval of violence"? - "No, no, not at all"
Is that a clear and unambiguous statement by you in relation to the policy of the Conservative Party to violence?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes.  I repeat Sir, the Conservation now and nor in the past never planned to commit violent deeds on an offensive basis but we had to look at how we were going to defend ourselves against the violence taking place.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Derby-Lewis - I beg your pardon, Doctor Hartzenberg, do you say at the end of that paragraph
"And that is why the Conservative put out case, we made the statement and we propose a policy just to prevent that situation.  The situation referred to means the use of violence"
Is that correct?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: That's correct Mr Chair, and we said that quite often.  If provision was not made ...[intervention]

GEORGE BIZOS: Let's confine ourselves to the document for the time being, please Doctor Hartzenberg.

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: I said: "Yes" Sir, and I am saying to Mr Bizos what the circumstances were which existed at the time.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: Microphone.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...[inaudible] the unambiguous statements made by you in relation to the policy of the Conservative Party, then the question by Mr Lester Venter
"So you are saying if this take-over that you are talking about - then a violence resistance to it, so it's a situation that hasn't arisen yet" - "Look Mr Venter, we have looked - we have watched the news tonight and we have seen the violence in Yugoslavia, it is being created as a result of a political situation and the Government and the ANC want to create the same situation in South Africa and we will not be responsible for what is going to happen if that situation is created in South Africa.  We warned them but we are not going to accept a Communist Government over our nation"
	The question was: "So it is a situation that hasn't arisen yet"? Is your answer confirmation by clear implication that the situation has not arisen yet but you warn that this may come about in the future if the plan to hand to hand over the country to the Communists comes into being.

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Mr Chair, I wouldn't have made such a statement if we hadn't seen - if we had seen that it was already starting.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you agree that the statement of the policy at the time that you were giving this in interview, that that time had not yet arrived?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: It was in the process of developing and that is why we were planning, that is why we were mobilising.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, if we could - may we go to the second last paragraph on page five
"We have only one point on our agenda and whether we fight elections or participate in Parliament in any forum or in mobilisation and that the freedom and self determination of our nation.  And if it becomes clear that negotiations will not deliver that, then it would be meaningless to participate, then we will sign our own funeral arrangements and we are going to do that ...[intervention]
JUDGE WILSON
"we are not going to do that"

GEORGE BIZOS: Sorry, yes
"not going to do that, we are not prepared to do that"
Is that what you said?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, at the time that you made this statement your Party was taking part in part in the negotiations in CODESSA.

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: CODESSA was dead at that time Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, it was a multi-party continuation of CODESSA - I'm sorry that I used the wrong word, the negotiations at Kempton Park were going on?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: That's right.

GEORGE BIZOS: On your Party was taking part in those negotiations?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: And your Party was publicly committed to a policy of persuading the other parties that were there that they must concede to the Conservative Party and other Afrikaner groups, the right to self determination?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And pressure was being put by the right-wing parties - I'm using it in a general sense, you understand what I mean, pressure was being exercised by the right-wing parties including the Conservative Party at the multi-party conference in Kempton Park, for the acceptance of that principle of self determination in the proposed constitution, is that correct?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: We were there Mr Chair, and from the first day - the first vote, we refrained from voting because the agreed pre-conditions were not agreed to - were not complied with, namely that we were coming together to plan because no planning was taking place and from the very first day we realised that we were dealing with a situation where there were prejudices and we continued - we stated our case, and later on in the year it was decided that we could not look at  ...[intervention]

GEORGE BIZOS: We are talking about April 1993 ...[intervention]

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes, but the first ...[intervention]

GEORGE BIZOS: You were negotiating, you were hoping for a political solution to the problems of the country and the non-negotiable part of your attitude was that the other parties had to agree to a form of self-determination?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: That's right.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: The first negotiations took place on 1 April and that's where we refrained from voting.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, I merely want to establish as a fact, that in April you were party to the negotiations of the multi-party conference, is that correct.

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: That's entirely correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you continued until July?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: I cannot remember exactly, it was slightly later.

GEORGE BIZOS: It's recorded somewhere.

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And of course being - but it was certainly there in April, I can assure you - I think it was July - we'll find a day.  Now, Doctor Hartzenberg, that the last thing that your Party would have wanted is any form of unbridled violence to break out in the country?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Mr Chair, in our participation in those negotiations at Kempton Park, we clearly demonstrated that we preferred a  peaceful solution and not a violent one and that is still our preference.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, and nobody ...[intervention]

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: But the point is, we never got a settlement.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chair, Mr Hartzenberg is not given the opportunity to reply properly.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] because - let him complete is answer please.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you want to complete your answer?

FERDIE HARTZENBERG: Mr Bizos, we gave preference to negotiations above violence and when it became clear that there was not going to be a peaceful solution, we withdrew and we consistently spelt out the consequences - that the needs of South Africa were not being met and we are experiencing it at present where 20.000 people are being killed.