Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

MR MADASA: Yes Mr Chair.  The reason being that it has transpired during consultation with him, that even though he had made an Application initially, he was in fact not involved in any of the offences associated with the Katlehong killing.  He merely made an Application because he was advised to do so.  Purely on the basis that he was a member of SDU.  Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr Singamo here?  Yes, Mr Singamo would you please go over there.  What language do you want to speak?

MR SINGAMO: Yes I can hear you now sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You heard your attorney telling us that you did not partake in the incidents of Katlehong in December 1993?  Your attorney is making a request or your advocate is making a request that you withdraw your Application for Amnesty.

MR SINGAMO: I hear you sir.  However, I don't know because I was taken into jail.  I was arrested for this matter even though I was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: What I would like to understand and know is, are you withdrawing your Application for Amnesty before this Commission?

MR SINGAMO: It's going to be difficult to say that I withdraw this Application as I was charged for the murder of those children that are no longer.

CHAIRPERSON: The people that appear before this Commission are people who are guilty of certain cases, who have come to apply for amnesty in connection with those cases.  Do you understand?

MR SINGAMO: I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: You have told this Commission that you have never - you are not guilty of anything.

MR SINGAMO: I could tell the Commission what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: We would like to know that you have nothing to do with these incidents that we are about to hear?

MR SINGAMO: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Therefore we are going to withdraw your Application for Amnesty.  I would like clarity - you are not guilty of anything?

MR SINGAMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The people that appear before this Committee are guilty, people who know they guilty of something or other.  Do you understand?

MR SINGAMO: Yes, I understand but I would like to ask a question.  I don't know if I am allowed to do that.  Am I permitted to do that?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SINGAMO: As we were arrested, our case, it says that on the 31st August we must go to the High Court in Johannesburg.  When we were making applications for amnesty as we realised how serious this is.  I would like to know what happens to me on the 31st August when I go to Court?

CHAIRPERSON: You will discuss that with your attorney.

MR SINGAMO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Well the Application for Amnesty in respect of Sivewe Malcomess Singamo, Application No. 8081/97 is hereby withdrawn.

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.  With regard to the rest of the Applicants, Mr Chair, I would like to state as follows, that all the Applicants except Malcolmess Singamo, they apply for amnesty in respect of the Katlehong Massacre and all offences associated with those killings and those killings are in respect - the application is in respect of the killings that took place at Katlehong on the 7th December 1993 at Moleleki Section and in connection with all the acts or offences associated with the said killings.
	Mr Chair the following facts have been agreed upon by the parties:-
	1.	That all the Applicants referred to were members of the 		SDU in Moleleki Section, Katlehong at the time in 			question.
	2.	That the Applicants were all members of the ANC.
3.	That the Applicants were involved in the said killings 	and/or offences associated with the killings.
	4.	That the following Applicants participated only in the 	acts - I should say in other acts associated with the 	killing but not the killing itself.

CHAIRPERSON: The Applicants that you are about to enumerate did not take part in the killings.

MR MADASA: Yes Mr Chair.  That is in the killing per se.  They are Michael Sonti, Solly Mashinini, Michael Sonti is Applicant No. 5.  Solly Mashinini, Applicant No. 9, Bennet Ndabe Applicant No. 13, Themba Mtshali Applicant No. 14.  Also that - all the Applicants during the killing and/or commission of offences or acts associated with the killing were armed with various sorts of weapons which differed from person to person.  Further that the parties are in disagreement as to the following
1.	Whether the acts or offences committed by the 	Applicants were acts or Offences associated with a 	political objective in terms of the Act.
	2.	Whether the Applicants in respect of the various 	Applications made full disclosure in respect of particular 	acts or offences they claim to	have committed.
	Lastly, whether the deceased persons, one Bulelewa Zwane who is deceased No. 1 on the list of deceased on Page 2 of the bundle and Julia Buthelezi, deceased No. 3 on the list were amongst the victims or the people that were killed at the site.
	Sorry Mr Chair, there is something that I want to clarify with my learned friend.  Sorry Mr Chair I want to make one correction.  My last item.  The submission should be, who are in disagreement whether the deceased persons Bulelwa Zwane and Julia Buthelezi were amongst the people who were killed by the Applicants.  In other words I delete the site.  That is all Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Madasa.  Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: I confirm what Mr Madasa Chairperson has said.  Except that the last part of it, that is whether the two deceased persons who have been mentioned were killed by the Applicants or not.  We were not sure whether it does not fall under the requirement for full disclosure or not or whether it was a question which actually exists separately from a requirement for full disclosure so we are drawing that to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Are we to understand that the Applicants admit having been involved in the killing of the following persons
Alfred Philemon Buthelezi, Thokozani Buthelezi, Ethumaleng Edward Motse, Lucas Buti Hlatswayo, Isaac Mogadi, Ditaba Joseph Mthembu, Petros Mavuso Modishwa, Miles Simon Simelane, Isaac Mbijana Motloung.

MR MAPOMA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you prepared the list of persons whom the Applicants admit having kidnapped?

MR MADASA: No Mr Chair, we omitted that.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any reason why that was not disclosed?

MR MADASA: Mr Chair there is really no particular reason, it's pure omission.  But now that it's been mentioned I thought it could be showed by evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  So that would emerge in the evidence, yes very well.  I think it would be useful if at some point a list of those persons whom the Applicants admit having kidnapped were to be made available.  You could deal with that after we've adjourned and have that list perhaps ready tomorrow morning.  Would you do that
Mr Madasa?

MR MADASA: Yes, I hear.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well.  At least we have made some progress, the adjournment was worthwhile.  Yes Mr Madasa you may then continue.

MR MADASA: Mr Chair, I call Applicant No. 4, Petros Vusumuzi Mthembu.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, what language are you going to speak?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I would prefer to speak in Sotho sir.

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: [Sworn states]

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Madasa?

MR MADASA: Thank you Mr Chair.

MR MADASA: Mr Mthembu, 1993 where did you live?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I lived in Moleleki Extension 2.

MR MADASA: How old were you at that time?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I'm 31 years old now.

MR MADASA: Were you involved in the killings of the people who were alleged to have been killed at Katlehong in December 1993?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Yes sir I was involved.

MR MADASA: How did you participate?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: I took part.  When an order was issued out that they be killed, I was present.  When they were killed I was there.

MR MADASA: Can you still remember who issued the order?

PETROS VUSUMUZI MTHEMBU: Yes, Dondolo issued out an order.

MR MADASA: Did you participate in the actual killing?