Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-11

CHAIRPERSON: Did anyone of the person who were accused ...[no English translation] tell the court that when they went into Boipatong the police were also present?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: No.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Khanyile, was it maybe part of your instructions to your lawyers to put it to the court that it was the police that attacked at Boipatong?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: It looks like it's not clear.  I never said police attacked the people at Boipatong, what I was trying to explain is that in answering Mr Berger's question when he said the community of Boipatong said that they saw police in Casspirs, when answering his question I said we as the accused at that time, we thought maybe that evidence might free us from the case because we were not supposed to be convicted if police were involved, not that I was saying we personally saw the police or that the police were there.  I'm trying to say that the community said there were police.

MR BERGER: Not only do the community or certain people in the community say that there were police vehicles in Boipatong at the time of the attack, they go further to say that there were white men involved in the killing, involved in the attack, what do you say about that?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: That never happened.

ADV SIGODI: Mr Khanyile, can you really vouch for that or can you say you never saw it happen, you personally never saw it happen?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I'm trying to explain that when we left kwaMadala Hostel we went into the Boipatong area and we got out of Boipatong, I never saw a white person.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, the point I'm trying to get across to you is that there is a difference when you say something never happened or when you say: "I never saw it happen".

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I would say I myself personally, I didn't see a white person on that day.

MR BERGER: Is it your evidence that all the attackers were people who had just before the attack gathered in the stadium of kwaMadala Hostel?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And when you were in the stadium, I take it you never saw any white men?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Yes, I didn't.

MR BERGER: According to ISCOR, there were approximately 430, if my figures are correct, residents in kwaMadala Hostel at the time of the attack, would that be right?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: My perception is that it's about 900 to 1000 residents or was.  If you are referring specifically to workers who work at ISCOR, it might be true.

MR BERGER: Certain people who gave statements on behalf of the Defence Force said that at one stage they saw a crowd which they estimated at totalling approximately 500 people.

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: That is their estimation.  I said there were about 350 to 400.

MR BERGER: According to ISCOR, some of their employees saw a crowd which they estimated to be in the number of about 800 people.

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I don't know anything about that.

MR BERGER: So my question to you really is this, are you being honest when you say that all the people who formed part of the attackers came from kwaMadala or is it not the position that the attackers from kwaMadala were supplemented by others, in particular members of the police and in particular white men?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: As I've already explained Mr Berger, what you are saying is not true, even the almighty himself knows that.

MR BERGER: Is it correct Mr Khanyile, that Mr Vanana Zulu is also known and was also known at the time as Ntwana?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And is it correct that he was the only person known as Ntwana in kwaMadala Hostel at that time?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Even he's not, the only one referred to as Ntwana according to the King's tradition, when you're referring to Ntwana in the hostel probably you were referring to him.

MR BERGER: Who was Gateni?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I don't know Gateni.

MR BERGER: Do you know anyone by the name of Gatcheni?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Yes, one person whom I knew is called Gatcheni.

MR BERGER: And who was he?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I only knew him as Gatcheni.

MR BERGER: Well could you tell the Committee what position Gatcheni held in kwaMadala at the time?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: He didn't hold any position.  I think I've already mentioned those who held positions in that time.

MR BERGER: According to you Gatcheni was just another resident of kwaMadala Hostel?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga says that the people - this in paragraph 6, the people who were in charge of the attack were Ntwana and he says here, Gateni but let's take it as Gatcheni.

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: During the time of the attack, Ntwana was at home for two or one week.  I don't know the whereabouts of Gatcheni at that time.

MR BERGER: You see Mr Khanyile, the difficulty I have with that answer is that Mr Victor Mthembu told the Committee the last time when he gave evidence, that he saw Mr Vanana Zulu Ntwana at the hostel on the 17th of June 1992.

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I wouldn't dwell much on Mr Mthembu's answers to the Committee, all that I know is what I'm saying can be confirmed by Mtwana himself and other residents of kwaMadala Hostel.

MR BERGER: Well you see you told the Committee now that Mr Zulu had been away from the hostel for a week before the attack, correct?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Yes, I said it's about a week or two weeks, I'm not exactly sure as to whether it was a week or two weeks.

MR BERGER: Mr Zulu told the court when he gave evidence, that he was away from the hostel from the 5th of June until the 22nd of June.

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: That might be the truth but I'm confirming what I'm saying, that he was not present.

MR BERGER: So are you then saying that Mr Victor Mthembu is not telling the truth when he said that he saw Mr Vanana Zulu catching a taxi away from the hostel on the, I think he said in the afternoon of the 17th of June 1992?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I would say it's not true.

MR BERGER: Isn't it that both of you are incorrect?  That in fact, well to one extent Mr Mthembu is correct that Mr Zulu was at the hostel on the 17th of June, he never went away and he was part of the attackers in Boipatong that night.

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: What I'm saying is the truth that cannot be denied or contradicted.

MR BERGER: You told the Committee this morning, and I will quote you your words: that nothing happens or happened in kwaMadala Hostel without the knowledge of Mr Vanana Zulu.

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Well when then was Mr Vanana Zulu informed that there was going to be an attack on Boipatong?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I didn't say that even if he's away in KwaZulu Natal he has to be informed, I was referring to incidents when he's inside kwaMadala Hostel.

MR BERGER: You said: "There was nothing that would take place without consulting Mr Vanana Zulu, nothing", now I put it to you that it could not have happened that such an important decision as the decision to attack Boipatong could have taken without consulting Mr Vanana Zulu.

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: That might be what you are thinking because what I said is when he is present all the reports are sent to him, I never explained that when he is not present he's normally given the message or consulted.

MR BERGER: You told the Committee about a meeting which was held three weeks before the attack on Boipatong, we're talking now about a meeting towards the end of May 1992, correct?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: You mean the first meeting?

MR BERGER: Yes.

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Even if I don't remember that it was on the exact date that you are mentioning, I would say that it was about three weeks before the attack.