Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: From Nofomela?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ANSWER: In Botswana?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ANSWER: Well I was with them and Joe Mamasela was 100% sure it was Joyce Dibali that he shot and that it, that she was killed.
2b

CHAIRPERSON: /...
MEMBER OF COMMISSION	46	D J COETZEE

CHAIRPERSON: It turns out that Mamasela lied?

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman, I can only accept that or after reading Mrs Dibali's statement that it was not her that was shot at, and that the person that Joe in fact had in his arms was the other lady that was made mention of.   He did not kill her at all but she must have fainted or pretended fainting because she dropped to the floor on the back verandah there right next to us.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: It doesn't seem like that is what she would say in her statement.   The impression I get from her statement was that, perhaps to assist you, she actually says that as she opened the door and she saw the three of you, Joe Mamasela actually identified her and said "that is  Joyce" and she also says that she also recognised Joe Mamasela's voice because she also knew Joe Mamasela.

ANSWER: I can't remember him at all identifying her, I did read that statement of hers and I did see that she recognised his voice and go further even and said the second man that was present must have been a black man and she's fairly sure that the third guy was a white guy.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes and in fact she says that she was also shot, she received some shot wounds, she ended up in hospital.

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mrs Joyce Dibali.

ANSWER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So she didn't escape unscathed, she was actually shot.

ANSWER: She was hurt yes, I don't know whether it was bullet wounds or shrapnel but she was hurt yes Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: /...
MEMBER OF COMMISSION	47	D J COETZEE

CHAIRPERSON: Has the identity of the person who was shot ever been established?

ANSWER: I'm not sure Mr Chairman, I think in the letter, accompanying letter of the Botswana police department it was mentioned and I think even mentioned that two people were hurt in the incident.   I'm not 100% sure I might be mistaken but not to my knowledge the specific identification of this lady.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman if I could be of assistance, on the second page of Exhibit G you will find in paragraph 2 that mention is made of one Sadie Mkwanjane, also known as Sadie Phule and that this name is repeated in the statement by...I remember picking up something but I can't pinpoint the position now but I remember that these seemed to have been people with almost either close friends or relations that were from South Africa.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: By the way Captain Coetzee, according to Mrs Dibali's statement I've already told you that she said when she opened the door at midnight to go to the railway station, when she opened the door she saw people standing there.   What she's really saying in her evidence is that that was not really a coincidence, the message she's giving is that she's of the impression that you knew that around midnight she was going to get out of the house to go and meet somebody from South Africa who would have been getting off the train.

ANSWER: No...

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is there something that you haven't told us about?

ANSWER: No not at all from our side.   The feedback I got later was that Rola was apparently not in the house that
2b	night /...
MEMBER OF COMMISSION	48	D J COETZEE
night because Mrs Joyce Dibali took him to the airport earlier that afternoon, afternoon to fly to Lusaka, Zambia
and therefore at the time was not in the house.   But the impression I had was that they forgot something in the bakkie and they came to the bakkie to fetch it.   I couldn't make out or remember what clothes they had on, whether they were in pyjamas or dressed to leave, but the impression as I say I got they came to the bakkie to fetch something that they might have forgotten.   That is the conclusion I arrived at at a later stage, but not at all had we at any time had any information that they were going to leave that night 12 o'clock to pick someone up, not at all I can assure you of that.   Not from, not to my or anyone of my specific group's knowledge.   If Captain Jan Coetzee or Captain Rudy Kraus had that knowledge I can assure you 100% did not convey it to us.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Except that it is not in your evidence as to how you had planned to enter the house and so on and so forth.

ANSWER: Yes, I suppose we would have kicked the back door down in an event to get into the house if they did not, by coincidence, come out of the house at the time.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Why do you say you suppose, was it not part of the plan, didn't you have a complete and detailed plan as to how you were going to gain access into the house?

ANSWER: Yes, we would have gone early the night, 9 o'clock, when we entered when there was still light in the house and around the house, but as I say as the result of the neighbour's dogs as a result of a disco or a party that went on right in front of the house of Mrs Dibali and as a result of a lot of people in the street in front of that
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MEMBER OF COMMISSION	49	D J COETZEE
house, it was impossible to enter the house at that time.  I had to wait for two and a half, three hours for the thunder storm to break to give us the necessary cover to get into the house.

UNKNOWN: So the thunder storm wasn't part of the planning, it was coincidence?

ANSWER: Completely coincidence as I've mentioned in my manuscript too Mr Chairman, I think I say that there were dogs barking...

UNKNOWN: Yes but you say you were waiting for the thunder storm to break so you could get a cover for the house, so that was not at all the case?

ANSWER: Not at all, not at all, it was all, we did not know of a party that went on in front of the house with the people in the street, of the neighbour's dogs that we wouldn't be able to get over the neighbour's fence to get into the back yard and we couldn't enter through the street.  No it's purely coincidence Mr Chairman.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think in fairness to Ms Dibali's statement I must ask you this.   Was it in your plans as to who was to go and knock first, how that person was to get access into the house?

ANSWER: No we were three to go into the house, that was myself, Almond and Joe and arriving at the house I suppose it was earlier and there was occupants in the house and the doors were still open...(end of side b)...no just to get into the house and get to the targets Mr Chairman.   It's very difficult to plan, there's always unforeseen factors.  As I say, the information of the information gathering groups is always a week old or maybe two weeks old so it's impossible to tell what is going on on a specific night in
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MEMBER OF COMMISSION	50	D J COETZEE
that house.   You've got to rely on two week old if not older evidence.

JUDGE WILSON: May I just correct something?   I put it to you that it was her cousin, I've had a chance to read the statement more carefully now, her cousin and her mother-in-law were the people she was going to go and fetch from the railway station.  The woman whom she mentions by name was in the house with her but it was not her cousin.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR JANSEN

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Coetzee, according to your evidence this morning you also handed a hand grenade to the people who attacked the house in Lesotho?

ANSWER: I did Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: If they carried out your instructions that might also have killed other people inside the house?

ANSWER: It was quite possible yes if there were other occupants in the room, that is correct Mr Chairman.

<UNKNOWN>: Your evidence now was that this house in Botswana was according to your knowledge a safe-house and a transit house?