Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-28

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, I knew a person in prison by the name of Theuns Kruger who was a Special Forces operative, or recce.  We became friends, we exercised together in prison, we spent approximately three years together.  He was released at an early stage of his sentence, due to special Defence Force amnesty and he told me before the time that he was going to be working for a specialist Defence Force organisation, that he had put feelers out to determine whether or not the people would be interested in me as well.  He gave me his wife's telephone number and said that as soon as I was released, I should contact him at that number.
	Furthermore at a later stage, he went and visited my parents in Nylstroom.  He knew them due to the visiting hours when we met one another in the courtyard for visitations.  He also left another telephone number with my parents for me to contact him upon my release.

MR WESSELS: Did you contact him upon your release?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I did.

MR WESSELS: And did you tell him that you were desirous to become part of that organisation?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, originally I contacted him just to renew our friendship, because we were very good friends in prison, and he then told me or asked me how I was finding the work that I was doing at that stage.  I told him it was very stereotypical work and that I was looking out for something better.  That is when he made me the offer and asked whether or not I would be interested in working with him.

MR WESSELS: Did he tell you that he would get someone to speak to you about it?

FERDINAND BARNARD: He said that someone would contact me.

MR WESSELS: Who was the person that contacted you?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I received a telephone call at my girlfriend's apartment one morning, seven or eight o'clock in the morning, and I was told that it was Jack van Staden.  He said that he wanted to speak to me regarding a possible work offer, that I could be interested in.

MR WESSELS: Did you make an appointment?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, we made an appointment at one or other hotel in Pretoria.

MR WESSELS: And this was Mr Verster who appeared to have been the person who contacted you?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And did you meet there?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, we did.

MR WESSELS: What did he tell you? What was he offering?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Verster originally gave me a cover story that we gave to everybody else, that he was a representative of a consortium of businessmen, who could damage the country's economy, who were enemies of a conglomerate of business people who were investing in the South African economy, COSATU and other Trade Unions as well as the PAC and the SACP and that they were looking for people who could destabilise these people and work on them.
	He didn't really give much detail and he told me that he knew that I must have many questions, but that I should try to tolerate the situation.

MR WESSELS: Was Lafras Luitingh present?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, he was not.

MR WESSELS: And did he tell you that somebody would contact you?  Someone who would be your handler?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No Chairperson, there was a second meeting with Mr Verster and upon the second meeting he brought in another person later in the discussion, in the room with us and this person was the Head of Security who introduced himself as Johan or Frank and he also had an interview with me.
	At that stage I had not yet met Lafras Luitingh.  It was upon a third occasion at the Holiday Inn at Millpark when Lafras Luitingh was introduced to me and then all three of them were present, and I was told that I had received the job and that I could begin, and that my liaison would be with Lafras Luitingh in future.

MR WESSELS: Was it Lafras who told you that you should formulate a false name for yourself and obtain false identity documents in that name?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes.

MR WESSELS: You got the name HJ. van Staden?  Jack van Staden?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, not Jack van Staden, HJ. van Staden, Hermanus Jakobus van Staden.

MR WESSELS: Was it part of your sense of humour to tease Mr Verster as it were?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, I don't think I did so consciously.  What happened was that Danie Phaal said to me that I shouldn't choose a name such as Shaun McIntyre or McIntosh so that someone could see that I was an Irishman or a Scotsman, I should get something that suited a "boerseun", a good Afrikaans name, that is why I chose Hermanus Jakobus van Staden, so it wasn't purposeful.

MR WESSELS: You knew that Joe Verster had the false name of Jack van Staden?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, actually I couldn't really remember van Staden, it was always Jack.  It wasn't like James Bond, Bond, James Bond, van Staden, Jack van Staden every time I saw him.

MR WESSELS: Is it your poor memory that serves you?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, I am just telling you what I remember.

MR WESSELS: It is purely coincidental that you chose the name HJ. van Staden?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: You say that you received no training?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Not at the CCB, no.

MR WESSELS: You had to learn as time passed, how things worked in the CCB?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I learnt a lot and Lafras Luitingh did inform me as time went by.  If there were questions, I went and discussed it with him.

MR WESSELS: Mr Luitingh, did he create the impression with you that security is of the utmost importance?

FERDINAND BARNARD: He did, yes.

MR WESSELS: And that Verster was fanatical about the security?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I do not think that he specifically told me that, but I did get the impression yes, that security was a very important factor, yes.

MR WESSELS: Very well.   Did he tell you that whatever you do, you must act in such a way that it will not be traceable back to the organisation?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Or to an individual?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes.

MR WESSELS: In other words you had to make use of agents?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No sir, in what sense, what agents?

MR WESSELS: To prevent that it be traceable back to the organisation, you had to find other people to do the work?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No sir, I had to do the job.  I did get criminal contacts to get information, but I myself, did the work.

MR WESSELS: That would have then resulted in it being traceable back to the organisation, because you are a member of the organisation?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, I was a conscious member of the organisation, but at that stage and during the Webster incident, I did not show Lafras Luitingh that I knew him.  That is Louis Uys and Jack van Staden was Jack van Staden.  I did not tell them "you are actually Joe Verster, what do you say about that", I did not tell them that, they did not know about it.

MR WESSELS: You then started working and you testified that there was the McQuillan incident where at two opportunities, tension was created between yourself and Lafras Luitingh in that information was leaked concerning your involvement and this could have compromised the organisation?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct yes, there were such incidents.

MR WESSELS: The first incident, when did this happen?

FERDINAND BARNARD: It was in 1988 or 1989, the first incident took place with the compromising of McQuillan, the first excursion when he was sent to London, the Klaas de Jonge incident, when he leaked out the project and that is when he told me that the whole world knows about the 15 000 dollars of McQuillan and that we have to lay low, or that I have to lay low.

MR WESSELS: And that your involvement was known?