Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-03

MS TANZER: Do you remember who from the hostel, the KwaMadala Hostel were with you in the Casspir that night?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I still remember Gatchene, he was in my group and Sipho, Dondo and Stikenau, Lucky.  Those are the ones that I still remember very well.

MS TANZER: Do you remember if Themba Kubeka was in the Casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I remember he was present.

MS TANZER: Was a person known as Rubin the Casspir with you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Ma'am, you know, he has told us who was and who he remembers.  You are now leading him.

MS TANZER: Alright, I'll retract that, I was just referring to the affidavit that he had signed previously, but I'll retract that.

MS TANZER: Do you know any other people that were in a Casspir with you that night?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There were many of us that evening but I can only remember ones with whom I was travelling in the Casspir when we went to attack.

MS TANZER: Can you describe the scene to the Commission as you arrived at Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We got off the Casspirs and took cover.  There is one first house that is painted white I think and we started breaking down windows.

CHAIRPERSON: Speak up and slow, we're making notes here and there's someone who is also interpreting.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, start again.

UNKNOWN: Through you Mr Chairperson, maybe Mr Nosenga, if you cannot tough the microphone, once it's on it will stay on, if you touch it then do this, there is a lot of sound coming in.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying we got off the Casspirs and we went into this first house painted white, broke windows and doors.  I think we found a male and a female there.  These two people were killed, were shot dead.

MS TANZER: Can you give any ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Listen, the man speaks a hell of a lot, just give us a little bit of a chance to make decent notes?  Carry on.

MS TANZER: Can you describe any physical features of that road that you entered and that could help identify which street it was?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am not quite familiar with the street, there is this one main road that proceeds towards Boipatong and we took the one road or street that ultimately led us to the first house.

MS TANZER: Did you shoot anybody in that first house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes even though I don't know the person's identity.

MS TANZER: What happened after you left this first house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We went into the second house, we found some children and adults, they too were shot and I also fired shots in that house.

MS TANZER: What kind of weapon were you using that night?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: An AK47.

MS TANZER: Did you yourself shoot any of these people, the occupants of this house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MS TANZER: How many people were with you in the second house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think there were six if not five.  Dondo and Rubin Themba included.

MS TANZER: What happened after that?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, would you please stop looking at the notes of your attorney.  Look up when you answer the question because sometimes your last word we don't hear them because you speak very softly.  Yes, yes?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying there were five of us, that is the second house, my legal representative is referring to the second house.

MS TANZER: What happened after you left the second house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We went into the third house in which we also found people and there was another group from among our group which was shooting from outside and we went inside and fired shots as well.  There could have been three of these people inside.

MS TANZER: And then what happened after that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We went into the fourth house then we also found people in this fourth house, some of them were running away, jumping the fence then we went into the house and started shooting the people that we found inside.

MS TANZER: And then, go on?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: And we went to the last house which was the fifth house and we also found people in this fifth house.  The door and windows were broken and started shooting.  We looked for people under the bed and wardrobes.

MS TANZER: Do you remember shooting anyone that night or were you shooting randomly around each house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I cannot say I could have spotted anyone individual because I was also under the influence of the Indelesi so that I also do not know the identity of these people that I shot.

MS TANZER: Did you notice any of your fellow attackers breaking windows and damaging houses?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The one person that I saw was Stikenau because another group was breaking windows and doors on the other side.  I could not have seen those.

MS TANZER: Why did you stop after the fifth house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I had two magazines, we continued to Slovo Park and another group continued attacking on the same street and I finished my job at the shacks.

MS TANZER: Did you see anybody rape a woman that night?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I only heard that Stikenau had raped someone but I'm not sure about that.

MS TANZER: Did you ask him if he had raped a woman

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not question him about it, he just mentioned it.

MR LAX: Sorry, just repeat that last answer?  I didn't catch the interpretation very well, I'm sorry.

INTERPRETER: He said that he did not question him about it, the person Stikenau had volunteered information.

MS TANZER: Had you ever been to Boipatong prior to this night in question?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I had been to Boipatong before I became a member of the IFP.

MS TANZER: On page 21 of the bundle at paragraph 20 you mention that Peens also shot people, that he shot them from the Casspir.  Can you elaborate to this Commission on what you saw Peens doing that night?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The Casspir was driving slowly and Peens would get off the Casspir and shoot at the people on the street.  He would not go into the houses.

MS TANZER: Did you see what kind of weapon Peens was using?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I just saw that it was a small gun, I'm not sure what type it was.

MS TANZER: Tell this Commission, after you left the Boipatong location, where did you proceed??

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Do you mean on our way back or during the attack?

MS TANZER: During the attack.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We took the taxi routes towards the Boipatong Hostel as if we were going towards ...(indistinct)ville, there were a lot of shacks around that area and that's where we launched another attack.

MS TANZER: Did you pass a hostel on the way?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes there was a hostel near a lot of trees and there were also shacks nearby and our last attack was launched on a Xhosa Hostel, that was after we'd been to Slovo Park.

MS TANZER: Did you shoot anybody in the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not remember, I only fired at Slovo Park.

MS TANZER: Do you remember shooting anybody specifically at Slovo Park or were you shooting randomly?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot identify the people I shot at Slovo Park but I just saw people falling as we were moving around the shacks.

MS TANZER: What did you steal that night from the houses that you were attacking?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: If I remember correctly, it was a video machine and a T.V. and cash, we stole this from the houses, not from the shacks.

MS TANZER: What did you do with the stolen items while you were at Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They were put into the Casspir because there were many items stolen from the houses including beds and duvet sets.

MS TANZER: How did you know that you were supposed to put the loot, the stolen loot into the Casspirs?