Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-10

UNKNOWN: And what did Zimmerman say to you as your legal representatives?

WITNESS:   They said they were going to re-open the case, but they never did.

UNKNOWN: Did you ever get the death certificate?

WITNESS:   Yes, we did get the death certificate. And what was written in there?  What was the cause of death?  If you do have it you'll submit it later on.   ---   It said he had died of gunshot wounds.

UNKNOWN: Was he ever taken to ... (incomplete)

WITNESS:   When we got there he was already at the mortuary and he was being examined.

UNKNOWN: Did they ever tell you as to what the pathologist got, what was the pathologist's report?

WITNESS:   They said I should be satisfied that I had seen my son and that was just the end of it.  No explanations were rendered.

UNKNOWN: Is there anything that you still want to add?

WITNESS:  Yes, that is quite correct, because I do not understand how the case was conducted.  I do not understand that Kwekwe should kill my son and still get away scot-free without accounting, especially the fact that he had shot my son three times.  I do not understand how a 10-year-old could pose a threat to an armed man.  That is very surprising really.

UNKNOWN: Now, how has this affected you and your husband?

WITNESS:   This has caused so much anguish in my family.

UNKNOWN: Let's start with you.

WITNESS:   After my son's death as well as the unsatisfactory results of the case I ended up having heart problems.

UNKNOWN: Is that all?  Are you getting any treatment?

WITNESS:  No, I am not getting any treatment for my cardiac problem.

UNKNOWN: Why are you not able to go for treatment?

WITNESS:   I have financial problems because I am the breadwinner in the house.  I have to support my family, and everything is supposed to be done by me.  I am maintaining the family and supporting my children.  Whenever I get money I always go to Buwidumela Hospital to get some treatment. Let's hear from Mr Mntuze.  How do you feel?   ---  After my son's death my husband suffered from dizzy spells and he also had cardiac problems, and he was having fainting spells.

UNKNOWN: Does he also get treatment?

WITNESS:   Yes, we do get some medical attention whenever we can afford it.

UNKNOWN: Mr Abraham, can you give us your own account of your health?

WITNESS:   There are times when this causes me to have cardiac attacks.  I do get employed, but because of my illness I always lose my job.

UNKNOWN: How many times - or how often do you get these attacks?

WITNESS:   I haven't been employed for the past nine months, because I fainted at some stage at work and they decided that they couldn't take me any more because the job that I was doing was dangerous.  So I could not continue to work.

UNKNOWN: What about the fainting spells?

WITNESS:   It's nine months now since I haven't worked.

UNKNOWN: What about your children?  How are they taking this?

WITNESS:   The children are quite fine.  They are just like any other child.

UNKNOWN: We have heard your story and we do understand your pain, especially because your child was so young.  At such a tender age how could he be killed by irresponsible armed adults?  We do understand that you are in financial problems because you are the breadwinner, and you would appreciate it if you could be assisted with the erecting of tombstones for all the children who died during the riots.  And you want people to be educated about political tolerance, and you also want the schools to be upgraded to have libraries, so that the community can have better facilities.  With regard to your health we would like you to meet our people who are designated to deal with problems such as yours so that they could advise you accordingly.  Have you ever gone to the welfare offices to put your side of the story?

WITNESS:   No, we've never been there.

UNKNOWN: We would advise you to go and see some welfare officers so that your husband could possibly get a grant.  We thank your daughter, who was very supportive in all that happened.  We thank you very much.

MR DLAMINI: Abraham, do you have any records of the case, such as the case number, or any document relating to the case?

WITNESS:   They are there, but I have got to search for them.

MR DLAMINI: Do you have them with you here, or they are there at home?

WITNESS:   They are not with me, they are at home, Sir.

MR DLAMINI: And do you have the address of the attorneys who represented you during the case?

WITNESS:   Yes, I have those addresses.

MR DLAMINI: Could you give them to us now?

WITNESS:   I know the addresses.  It's Legal Resources, President Street, Johannesburg.

MR DLAMINI: Do you have any papers or a card from them so that we can get full details including the telephone?

WITNESS:   They are not with me now.

MR DLAMINI: All right, thank you, we'll make a follow-up with you afterwards.

WITNESS:   Thank you, Sir.

MR DLAMINI: I just have two short questions, Mama Mntuze.  Firstly, we as a Commission, when somebody is killed in this way, we would like to know if he was ever involved in politics.  Your son was very young, he was only ... (incomplete - end of Side B, Tape 1) ... did he have about politics, or what involvement did he have in politics?

WITNESS:   There I have no evidence.  I only know that he's just a mere child, and he's a person who was interested in schooling.  Maybe on the side that is whether - if whether this has happened because he was involved in the unrest situation I have no evidence.

MR DLAMINI: On the day that your son was killed was there anybody else who was injured or killed?

WITNESS:   No.

MR DLAMINI: Abraham and Elisa Mntuze, your case is a very serious one.  For two men to shoot a child of 10 years is unacceptable.  Even if there was the riot somewhere in the morning that will not qualify two elderly men to kill a boy of 10 years, who knew nothing about politics.  The question I want to ask you, these lawyers you took, did you - how much did you pay them?  Or they were Legal Resources lawyers, you didn't pay anything to them?

WITNESS:  We didn't pay anything, Sir.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you.  You have just said that somebody told Elisa that Phineas had been shot.  Who is that somebody?

WITNESS:   We were in the house when this person was shouting to us.  Her name is Bulani.  She stays at our neighbour's house.

MR DLAMINI: That's Bulani?

WITNESS:   Yes, it's Bulani.  Her surname is Gudwani.

MR DLAMINI: She is your neighbour?  Is she still around?

WITNESS:  (No reply interpreted)