bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you very much, Mam.  As I have already said we are trying to comfort people here and we sympathise with people who come forward regarding what happened to them.  The other thing is we are still investigating, trying to find the truth about the whole event that you are telling us about.  I do not know if you had seen in the newspapers that a lawyer wrote to us, writing on behalf of the police, that is 22 officers, some of them were Generals and some of them the leaders in the police, trying to inform us that those people who were
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considering coming to plead for amnesty from the Commission and the very same person gave the names of those people who wanted amnesty and on the other side of the letter they included the many events in which these police would accept or acknowledge that some of the things that are written, they were perpetrated by them or they know about those incidents.  Like the incidents at Khotso House.  People use to think that it was a certain lady who planted a bomb at Khotso House.  Now this lawyer said, no, this event or incidents like the one at Khotso House, they admit that they are the ones who had a hand or who perpetrated these incidence.  One of them being the massacre at KwaNdebele.  That is the one we are addressing today.  
 We have not looked in details in what they told us, but there is no one who could just, from the blue, stand up and say that I take responsibility for doing this and this unless he did it.  Maybe the pain you went through thinking that it is a certain person who did this, maybe if we tell you the truth and you know who really perpetrated this incident, maybe you can be emotionally healed.  We have not emphasised that it is the police who did this, but they are the ones who approached us and told us that they are the ones who perpetrated this.  All the time we use to think that it was the ANC who perpetrated this incident, but later on they came and told us that they are the ones who did perpetrated this incident.  
 This Commission is called the Truth and Reconciliation Commission so we want to establish what is the truth about all these incidences.  The other side of this Commission is that it administers reconciliation and we are trying to heal all the wounds of the past.  We also hope that you, as you 
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have said, that by coming here, probably you will be healing old wounds.  That will exactly happen.  
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

NAMPUNDING MABEL MALOBOLA: I do not understand.  Mbuzo use to hang around with them.  He was about 19 years old.  He was in the PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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company of three boys.  One was from Mahlangu's family in Benoni.  The other one was from Vosloorus with him.  The other one I could not remember his name, but the other one was Kenny Mahlangu from Benoni.

RUSSELL ALLY: Was Mbuzo still at school or had he finished school?

NAMPUNDING MABEL MALOBOLA: I cannot say he was finished or he was not finished because he was staying with his mother and father in Springs.  They were just coming to visit for me.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We do not have comforting words that we can pass to you.  We understand the hurt that you experienced.  We pray God Almighty that He may bless you and let it be Him who will be gracious to you together with everybody who is here and a lot of them who are not here who will sympathise with you and comfort you.  We are prepared to investigate and find the true facts so that you could know who did these brutal things so that even people who suspected each other, thinking maybe it was so and so who did this, could not be misjudged as to being people who did the thing which is so brutal.  We thank you for having come forward to tell the tale in public.  I hope this will help you to be comforted because you know there are people who sympathise with you and we thank you for that.
 Just before I pass on to Dr Boraine, could we make a small appeal.  We do not, in fact, have enough of these headsets we have been talking about and many of us ...
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-12

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Can you just tell me in what language will you be giving your testimony?

MR MASUKU: I think I will mix English and Sotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Between English and Sotho.  Okay.  If you will then, if you will have the headsets on.  You are welcome to use whatever language you want to and Mrs Sooka will take you through your testimony.  She will assist you.  Thank you for coming to us.  Mrs Sooka.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Masuku if you could tell us very briefly, in a few minutes, a little bit about yourself please.

MR MASUKU: I am Oupa Masuku and I was born in 1957 and I am the first born of the late Mrs Madiphoso Masuku who was killed in 1986 and I have been a student leader since 1976.  I have been also a civic leader.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.  If you could just tell us now about your own story please.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-12

CHAIRPERSON: ... on her son Mooketsi Joseph Mokoena who first disappeared into exile and she will also give us information relating to his death in detention.  Mr Tom Manthata will be leading that, but before I hand the Chair to him will you please stand Mrs Mokoena, raise your right hand.

CAROLINA SINKEPENG MOKOENA: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Tom Manthata.

THOMAS MANTHATA: As you have already heard Mrs Mokoena be relaxed and tell us about the disappearance of your son.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-15

CHAIRPERSON: We will now call upon Mrs Moswaila Elizabeth Lukhele to come to the witness stand.  We ask you dearly.  Sorry.

MR MALAN: She is not here.

CHAIRPERSON: She is not here.  We see that Ms Lukhele is not here.  We will call her when she arrives.  If Mrs Ellen Morudu is here may she please come to the witness stand.  Mrs Ellen Morudu, we thank you for coming here.  Please relax and be comfortable.  Inform us who is with you.

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: He is my son.

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: What is his name?

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: He is Thomas Morudu.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you Thomas Morudu for accompanying your mother.  I would request Wynand to take you along as you take your oath.

MR MALAN: Mrs Morudu, will you please stand.  Will you raise your right hand.

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: (Duly sworn in, states).

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.  You may be seated.

CHAIRPERSON: I will ask Dr Russell Ally to guide you as you tell your story.

RUSSELL ALLY: Good morning to you Mama.  Can you tell me who is, can you hear me first, is the translation coming through?

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: Yes, I can hear you.
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RUSSELL ALLY: Can you tell us who is sitting next to you?  Who has come with you?

MATLAKALA ELLEN MORUDU: He is Thomas Morudu, my son.

RUSSELL ALLY: Welcome to you Thomas.  You are coming to speak about your son, Moss, who disappeared.  Could you please tell us what, your story.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-15

CHAIRPERSON: Who is accompanying you Mr Motsepe?

GODFREY JOSIAH MADILENG MOTSEPE: I am accompanied by my two daughters.

CHAIRPERSON: They are welcome.

GODFREY JOSIAH MADILENG MOTSEPE: Mrs Jacqueline Masebilanga and Tamaria Mosepe seated over there.

CHAIRPERSON: They are welcome.

GODFREY JOSIAH MADILENG MOTSEPE: Thanks

CHAIRPERSON: I hope you will relax too, feel at home.  I will leave you over to Wynand.  Thank you.

MR MALAN: Good morning Mr Motsepe.

GODFREY JOSIAH MADILENG MOTSEPE: Good morning Sir.

MR MALAN: Would you like to have your other daughter also sitting up with you?  She is very welcome to join you.

GODFREY JOSIAH MADILENG MOTSEPE: Okay.

MR MALAN: If she is comfortable with that.  Nice to see a family together.  Before we start would you mind taking the oath?  If you will just raise your right then.

GODFREY JOSIAH MADILENG MOTSEPE: (Duly sworn in, states).

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.  You may take your seat.  Mr Motsepe, you were for some time representative of the ANC, the informal Ambassador to the Benelux countries.  You had some experiences abroad.  It is a different setting in which we get further information relating to gross human rights violations and we will appreciate it if you will share with
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us basically what you have disclosed in your statement to us.  Thank you for being here.  We will gladly be listening to you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-15

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motsepe and your daughters or your family, we are very grateful for what you have shared with us and you can be assured that the TRC will do the best it can to address that very issue of who these people were who were roving the western world through hunting the people down.  You have said that some of them can still be located, but over and above, it is this whole trauma that has occasioned your family.  The loss of the wife, you know, is characteristic of this kind of effect of being followed and
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being hunted down.  We are just too grateful that they have never succeeded to shoot you, to kill you, but we are saying we are with you, we share your trauma and thanks for even hazarding this incidents example of what could be done for reparation and rehabilitation which is what this Committee is all, what the TRC is mostly about.  We thank you so much.  We will, we hope we will still get your co-operation in other fields relevant to your experience to discover, to unearth some of these people.  Thank you so much.

GODFREY JOSIAH MADILENG MOTSEPE: Thanks.
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

WILLIAM TULUDI PHATLANE: I thought so because all these people were together during that march.  They were all in that place and they were shot at the same place.  All of them were next to each other, but the place is bigger than this one.  It was full of corpses.  They called it the Government Mortuary.  Then I thought these are the people who were shot by the police.  I cannot tell whether they were just grouped or mixed.

CHAIRPERSON: I thank you.  I do not have any further questions.  Mr Phatlane, we thank you for the information that you have given us with respect to the incident that occurred on that day.  We understand you have lost your child who did not take part in this march.  When you left for work you knew everything was under control.  We will try to address your request to find out who killed your son.  We will work together with you to see where we can help each other to find the true facts of the matter.  We wish that this little girl would grow up without suffering any phycological problems or emotional problems.  We thank you Mr Phatlane.
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-12

RUSSELL ALLY: The burial of your son, were you, did this, did the family bury your son?

ELIAS ZWELAKHE SHANDU: Yes, Sir, we did bury him.
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RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Questions Tom.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Sorry.  Oh yes, I am sorry.  I am sorry.  What I wanted to know is Mr Makgothe you are referring to in your statement, they Makgothe who has been the leader of the trade unions within the ANC?  Sorry.

ELIAS ZWELAKHE SHANDU: I do not know actually.  I cannot tell you, but he was in Botswana.  I cannot tell you whether he is the person who is the leader of the trade unions, but we were together with him in Mabopane and then he left for Botswana.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I do not know whether I am repeating this question.  From ANC what report did you get about the death of your son?

ELIAS ZWELAKHE SHANDU: No, they did not give me any report about the death of my son.  There was no report.

THOMAS MANTHATA: There was not even an indication of in whose company could he have been at the time he might have been detained by the Nietverdiende police?

ELIAS ZWELAKHE SHANDU: No, they told me that the group which was in his company went to Tanzania and Angola and this was a group which was going to Angola and they left for Tanzania.  They told, the police told me like that.  That this person, my son, was going with, was in the company of the group which was going to Angola.  That is the manner in which the police told me.

THOMAS MANTHATA: They do not say that your son together with those others were coming back into the country.  They say they were going to Angola?

ELIAS ZWELAKHE SHANDU: The police said they were going to Angola.  I am just trying to hide it.  They said I am trying to hide it because my son was going to Angola and they said they are
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going to arrest him before he gets to Angola.

THOMAS MANTHATA: In short, they did just that.  He was arrested before he could even get to Angola?

ELIAS ZWELAKHE SHANDU: Yes.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Which meant he had not even reached Botswana?

ELIAS ZWELAKHE SHANDU: They were in Botswana at the time Sereta was there.  They were in Botswana.  They took him in Botswana. I think those were the people who were leaving the country.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Okay, thank you.

ELIAS ZWELAKHE SHANDU: What I want to know, I want to know who killed my son.  That is why I came here.  I just want to know who killed my son, for what.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shandu, thank you very much.  There are no further questions here.  You have been living with this for some what 18 years, not being able to find out.  We hope that we will be getting more information.  We are circulating all the statements to everybody indicated.  We are asking them for comment.  We will try our utmost best.  Of course we cannot guarantee anything, but we will indeed also report to you.  We will try our best to try and find out and tell you what we can tell you.  Thank you very much for coming to us.  We will be in touch with you again.
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

CHAIRPERSON: We welcome you Mrs Shongwe.  You are you with today?  I would ask Mr Wynand Malan to administer an oath to you.

INTERPRETER: We just want to see if the interpreting is working.  Can you hear the interpreters?  Can you not hear the interpreters?  Can you hear the interpreters?  The technical people are now there.  Maybe ...

MR MALAN: ... papers over the hearing piece, then it will not be effected by other.  Put it on top, yes.  It should protect it.  Can you follow me now.  Just before we start would you be prepared to please rise and take the oath please.

MARY NONGAZI SHONGWE: (Duly sworn in, states).

MR MALAN: Thank you.  You may be seated.  Mrs Shongwe, I am going to speak Afrikaans to you.  You will hear the interpreting into Zulu.  The reason why I am speaking Afrikaans is that your statement, in fact, is in Afrikaans.  You are very bilingual as we said in the old days, you can speak Zulu and Afrikaans very well.  You have given us a very, very comprehensive statement here.  In fact it involves 48 paragraphs.  In fact, 78 paragraphs, so we are very clear on what you want you to tell us, but we would be glad if you could stick to the essence of your story so that we can clearly hear what has happened, so that we can hear
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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exactly what happened to you.  What is your story?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

MR MALAN: Please take your time Mam.  Have a sip of water.  We will wait for you.

MRS SHONGWE: We could not sleep that Saturday evening.  We could not even eat.  Even to this day, you know, his child always cried me, asking where is my father.  You know, it is sour, it is bitter in the house and we do not even know why we are crying.  Perhaps David is still alive, perhaps David is dead.  We would not know.  How can we know or probably he has left the country.  We do not know.  We are just devastated.  I therefore decided let me go to my aunty.  I left, I was headed for my aunties place.  You know, as if God was sending me, God was talking to me.  When I was with my aunty I told her that, you know, my child went missing. She said, where you think he has gone to.  I told her he left on Thursday.  There were three of us, it was myself, my aunty and her daughter.  I just greeted a boy outside. The boy was outside and I went on, proceeded into the house.  We PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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were talking with my aunty.  My aunty said, Mary just keep praying, God is going to answer your prayers, but I could tell that she was looking at me so timidly.  She was shy also, she could not look at me straight.  You know, I could feel some strange feelings sitting with them as we were talking.
 The boy that I left outside came into the house.  He came and stood by the door.  When he came I could see him signing to my aunty to keep quiet.  Now suddenly it was quiet.  There was quietness in the room.  I said to my aunty, well I am going now, I am leaving.  She took me out, she escorted me outside and she said you must go so well and God be with you.

MR MALAN: Please excuse me for interrupting you, but I have to.  I would like to ask you, I know that it is very important to you and you would like to tell us, but looking at your statement if you are going to be telling us these things that are not directly related to the, to your statement then we are going to be here all day because what you are telling me now is relevant to paragraph 12 of your statement.  Can you please tell us what you saw on television that Saturday in connection with the minibus which was seen at the Hallmark Building and just tell us the most important events.  At least try, at this stage, not to tell us everything that you have mentioned in your statements about your contact with people which are not directly related to the story.  I know that I am complicating things for you and I would like to apologise at the same time, but I would like you to condense the most important events as much as possible.  I know that you have this need to mention everything, but I am not sure whether
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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we will be able to accommodate you in terms of time, but once again I would like to apologise for interrupting you and just ask you to tell us what you saw on television and events in connection with that.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

MRS SHONGWE: Zwane was always collaborating with the whites.  He was also in the National Party.  We have always heard a lot of things about Zwane, how notorious he was and he is the very one who took my son and that was the end.  I
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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never saw my son after that and since that day we do not even look at each other.  He always avoids me.  He also disappeared for quite some time and also this Sipho Mabena, he is the one who killed.  I do not believe that, I do not that believe that.  I do not even know why he said he did that because if he was the one those whites were not going to bother us.  Why were those whites bothering us because they also wanted to kill me.  I had to leave my place to some farm and also hide, get some place of refuge at Pastor Modise's place.  We left the house.  We had to avoid these whites.  If it was Sipho for sure, why are these whites after us.  Also they kept saying they will give me money and support my house and taking that much responsibility.  Why would they want to assume such responsibility if he was killed by the ANC?

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Shongwe, we are touched by your story and we shall do the best we can with the few leads that you have given us and the people that you have referred to together with the organisations that you have hinted.  We, you can be assured, that we will do the best to investigate who actually killed your child or where your child could be if it can still be possible.  All this will be done or achieved with your co-operation.  We thank you and your family.  Thank you for the day.
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

DR BORAINE: Before I call the next witness I would just like to say how glad we are to have in the ... call Jeremiah Victor Sithole.  Mr Sithole, yes, thank you for putting on the headphones.  Let me just make sure you can hear me.  Can you hear me alright?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: Yes.

DR BORAINE: You can, fine.  Alright.  Mr Sithole, we want to welcome you very warmly to the Commission.  We have just heard about an incident which took place and you are going to tell us about the same incident, I think, the KwaNdebele massacre which took place a very long time ago.  You must have been very, very young because you are a young man still today and the story that you are going to tell us took place, I think, in 1986.  Before I ask one of my colleagues to take over from me to assist you in telling your story would you please stand in order to take the oath.  Would you raise your right hand please?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: (Duly sworn in, states).

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  You may be seated.  Mr Sithole, you have a very, very painful story to tell and it was only, almost by a freak that you yourself were not killed that night, but you are going to tell us about that and Mr Russell Ally is going to help you to do that and I hand over to him now.
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2 J V SITHOLE

RUSSELL ALLY: Welcome Victor.  You were one of the people who originally part of the group that went to KwaNdebele and as has already been said, you were fortunate to escape death that evening.  Your account is a very important account because you were part of what happened.  So I am going to ask you to tell us that account, to take your time because it is very important to hear what you have to say.  So will you please, in your own words, in your own time, relate to us the events of June 1986?
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: They did say that the, all these, the cases of those days are being reinvestigated by them at Paul Kruger by the Paul Kruger police, but I did not trust in them, but I trust them now because they came with the parents and even if I withdrew they would say that you have got the information, why are you holding back.

DR BORAINE: And when was the last time you saw them or heard anything.  There has been no court case, there has been nothing that has followed or has there?

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: No, they would come and visit me and say that we should go to a certain place and there were photos at the police stations and I did take them where I knew that there was a background and that you would get these things and that PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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at a certain place we lived in this way and it is the other place we lived at in a certain way.  Even now they have these photographs of the deceased people and so forth.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  As I have said when I was speaking to Mrs Johannah, it is a very painful thing that happened, this incident.  Besides the fact that people were killed others were hurt like yourself.  You were detained and you would come back walking crookedly because of all your injuries.  It is just that it caused a lot of bad blood between the people saying that at places where people use to get along, they no longer get along and we trust that the truth that we are going to try and expose is going to assist in at least where people do not get along, that we could bring about peace.  However, we appreciate that you came forward and came to tell us your truth.

JEREMIAH VICTOR SITHOLE: If I could prove that this child is alive and bring this child forward, if I could prove to you that this child is alive, you could see that she is lying.

MR MALAN: She has not said her child is dead.

CHAIRPERSON: We will do everything we can.  The truth that we are looking for and even if we could establish that as the truth, it is going to be a truth that is going to assist us in seeing who is telling the truth and who not.  Is that okay.  Okay, thank you very much.
 We should have had a break for tea at 11:00.  We will take a break until half past 11.  Could we, as we normally do in these instances to demonstrate our solidarity, our respect for the people who are giving evidence, please stand in our places until the witnesses leave.  Please stand.  
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Order please.  And please leave the headphones behind.  If you take it out it will bite you.  If there are any who want to make statements in the foyer, there are statement takers.  Thank you.
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

DR BORAINE: ... if you would come to the podium on the stage please.  Mrs Skhosana, could you put the earphones on please and I would be grateful if you could tell me if you could hear my voice in the earphones.  Not yet.  You can hear alright.  Can you hear my voice in the earphones and can you hear the translation?  Let us make absolutely sure that that is right.  You cannot hear anything.

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: I cannot hear anything.

DR BORAINE: Let us try another one.  Whilst we are waiting could I just mention that these sets are available.  If you do not have a set and need one, please indicate and we will ask one of our staff to make sure that you get that.  Thank you.  There are quite a number who are without them.  Could you, alright, let us try again Mrs Skhosana.  Can you hear me through the earphones?  You can hear nothing at all.

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: There is no Zulu coming through.

DR BORAINE: Well, we cannot proceed until we have made sure that that is working.  Let me try again.  Is it any better?  Nothing at all.  Can you hear my voice in English on the?

DR BORAINE: Or nothing at all.  You cannot hear anything.  You can hear.  We have asked some of the staff to make sure that the available headsets are distributed and they are also at the entrance to the hall.  So if you want to help yourselves please do so.  Now, Mrs Skhosana, can you hear my PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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voice?  You can?  Can you hear the translation?  You can.  Wonderful.  Mrs Skhosana, I want to welcome you very warmly to the Commission.  We are very grateful that you have come.  We know it is not an easy experience and to relive what happened ten years ago can be very traumatic.  Now, can I just, I am talking.  Okay.  Are you okay now?  Can you hear my voice?  Alright.  Let me try that again.  You alright?  Okay.  Mrs Skhosana before you give you evidence I have to ask you to take the oath.  So I would be very grateful if you would stand please and if you would raise your right hand.

JOHANNAH VILIE SKHOSANA: (Duly sworn in, states).

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  Mrs Skhosana, I know it is quite a nervous ordeal and especially being first, but I would ask you to please relax as much as you can and to speak up loudly and clearly because everybody wants to hear what you have to say.  That is why they are here and also you will be speaking not only to those who are here, but through the radio, through the newspapers, through television you will be telling your story which you have already told to our statement takers.  Mrs Skhosana, you are going to tell a very terrible story of what happened ten years ago when ten or nine, rather, young people were brutally killed, but I do not want to put words into your mouth so I am going to ask you to tell your story in your own words and when you are ready, please start.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

CHAIRPERSON: We will call Piet Tuka Tshoba to come to the witness stand.  I will start to apologise because I said, I mentioned Jan Tshoba to come to the witness stand.  However, I wanted to say Piet Tuka Tshoba.  I understand that you are here to give us evidence as to the circumstances surrounding Jan Tshoba's death.  We would like to know who is in your company.

PIET TUKA TSHOBA: It is my daughter.

CHAIRPERSON: What is her name?

PIET TUKA TSHOBA: Freda Mathabe.

CHAIRPERSON: We welcome you Freda for accompanying your father.  I will pass you to Wynand Malan who will let you take the oath.

MR MALAN: Good afternoon Mr Tshoba.  If you would not mind, please will you stand?  Can you hear the translation?  If you would please stand to take the oath, if you will raise your right hand.

PIET TUKA TSHOBA: (Duly sworn in, states).

MR MALAN: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: I will request Dr Russell Ally to lead you and guide you when you tell your story.

RUSSELL ALLY: Good afternoon to you Mr Tshoba.  I see you have been waiting for quite a while.  Thanks for coming.  You are going to speak to us about your son, Jan, who was killed in
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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May 1992.  So, could you please tell us your story.  We want to listen to it.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-13

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr van der Merwe.  As Mr Malan has already indicated, your statement was a very interesting one for us.  We read it with a lot of interest precisely because it summed up in many ways the nature of
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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the conflict and also reminded us of what the exercise and the work of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission is about.  It is the conflicts of the past and that means looking at it in, as an all-sided, many-sided conflict.  We are very appreciative of you coming forward because we think that it is, that there, perhaps, is a perception out there and a wrong perception that the Truth Commission is simply about apportioning blame and victimising and persecuting those who were either in the service of the police or the army because that was in the service of apartheid, but the work of the Commission is not that at all.  It is to actually understand the conflict out of which we have come so that we can learn lessons and, hopefully, never repeat those mistakes again in the past.  
 So, hopefully, your testimony will be an encouragement to others who were in similar situations who were also victims and perhaps also even perpetrators as Mr Malan has pointed out.  So we are very grateful and especially also that you have indicated that you have no bitterness, that you have come to terms with it and you understand what has happened and that is all you, that the main reason that you are coming to the Commission is to share those experiences so that in the future these types of things, in the army, do not happen again and that people are a lot more careful with how they deal with soldiers and the orders that they give and the instructions that they give.  I realise that there is an awesome responsibility in that situation.  So thanks very much for coming forward.
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-13

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for coming,Mrs Walters, and for being so honest.  It is important to point out that for us here, the Commission, it is not to judge, but for people to come and express their opinions so that we can get as complete and as honest a picture as possible and for people to actually say what is on their minds and what is in their hearts and not feel obliged to be saying things which they do not necessarily feel or agree with because all of
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6 S L WALTERS
this has to form part of whatever report is eventually written, but thanks again.  It is very important that we do not lose sight of the many, many victims from all sides of the conflict and your story helps to refocus that.  Thanks very much to both you and your daughter.

SUSAN LEONA WALTERS: Thank you very much.
PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-23

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you very much Reverend.  Mr Barnes, we welcome you.  Your case should have been heard yesterday when we were dealing with the Queenstown bomb blast where some of your fellow sufferers who were affected in that particular blast, came to the Commission to give their witness.
 But we were told that you were unable to be here and we then arranged to hear you this morning.  We are grateful that you have come and we indeed welcome you and we look forward to hear what you have to add on the testimony of what happened on that very gruesome act which affected a number of people in this town.
 Adv Denzil, who has led the testimony of the other witnesses involved in that same act, will be leading you and I will now hand you over to him to lead the questions on behalf of the Commission.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Chairperson.  Good morning Mr Barnes.

L BARNES: Good morning.

ADV POTGIETER: I repeat the welcome of the Chairperson.  You drove in from Port Elizabeth especially to attend and to give your testimony, welcome and relax and feel free to tell us your story.  As the Chairperson has indicated, we have heard the evidence about the background to the incident, it happened on the 3rd of December 1992 at the Spur Steak Ranch QUEENSTOWN HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
2 L BARNES
and the evidence showed yesterday that you were one of those people who were directly affected as a victim in that incident.
 So I would like you to take us through your story.  Perhaps you can start off just by giving us a brief background about yourself, who you are, where you come from, what you are doing, whether you are married and then you can deal with that fateful incident of the 3rd of December, so it is over to you.

L BARNES: Thank you very much and thank you for giving me the opportunity as well.  Yes, I am married, I have two children.  A daughter and a son.  My daughter is 10 years old, my son will be 8 years old.
 I work for a bank.  My job entails extensive travelling throughout the whole of the Eastern Cape, I am involved in the operations side of the bank.
 And on that particular day on the 3rd of December 1992, I was actually on duty on route from Port Elizabeth to Umtata with a fellow colleague of mine, who worked with me and we decided we were going to sleep over in Queenstown on that Thursday night.

ADV POTGIETER: You can proceed.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-23

BONGANI FINCA: Are there any questions?  Mr Barnes, we have already addressed ourselves as the Commission to your colleagues yesterday.
 But what I need to say just to you now is, it touches us deeply to see how profound that effect, how profound that event had an affect on your life.
 It is not normal and I do apologise if this remark is sexist, but it is not normal for a man especially in our culture, to shed tears publicly.
 We always attempt to be strong and for you to come and share your story and to share your emotions with us, with the people who are in this hall, with the whole of South Africa, and to show your emotions the way you have shown us, has touched us very deeply.
 Our task as this Commission is to establish a complete picture of human rights violations in this Country.
 And of course that picture will not be complete unless we cover all the aspects of human rights violations.
 And the Queenstown event in the Eastern Cape is an event which touched us as the people from this region very profoundly.
 We are going to be attempting to go to the roots of that story to find out what happened.  One of the things that the Commission is already doing, is to plan a hearing 
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8
where political parties are going to be making submissions to the full Commission on their activities during the period of the struggle.
 What things were authorised by those political organisations and why they were authorised and what things happened outside the authority of political organisations.
 And indeed the question that you have raised to us, I'm sure has stuck in our minds and we are definitely going to want to raise when we meet with the political organisations which have claimed responsibility for that event.
 For now, let it suffice to say that we have heard you.  We convey to you our sympathies and we are going to go to the roots of what happened on that day.  Thank you very much.

L BARNES: Thank you.  I'd just like to leave these photographs and these Doctors' reports for the Commission.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you very much.  You can submit it to Mr Sandi.

L BARNES: Thank you.

BONGANI FINCA: I just wish to ask our Regional Manager to make sure that we do get a written statement from Mr Barnes, because he has not had a chance to submit a statement to us at this stage.
 Thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-22

UNKNOWN: Yes, because he said that I have given a statement on my own free will at the police station and yet I want him to tell where he got that from.
 Another one is that the community of Queenstown was not against my family, but there were certain people who organised the community to act against my family.
 All houses were keeping liquor and selling liquor in Queenstown.  There was a decision that people should sell the liquor so that it was out of stock.
 So they were checking on the amounts whether they were still there, whereas at home, we were always keeping and not selling the liquor as Andile said.  So even that nip that was produced as having to have been bought at my home, was not true.
 This was said in public and therefor the people had a 
QUEENSTOWN HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
21 M BATYI
negative attitude towards us, so these were money makers who were saying it.
 And so people had their reason for doing all this, because we were seen as money makers.

REV XUNDU: Thank you.  Do you think that those are the only things that you want this Commission to look into?  So I take it back to you, Mr Chairman.

BONGANI FINCA: Are there any questions?  Let us now thank you for telling us your story which I feel is a very painful experience which happened during this time of struggle, for one to be labelled as an informer, it would be very uncomfortable, because he would be seen as an enemy by the public.
 Even the way he would be handled, it would show the fury of the people.  
 So you have asked that we should investigate as this Commission about all the things you have mentioned so far.  We promise that we are going to investigate because we know that if a person has been labelled an informer, that becomes a black mark that cannot be erased next to his name and even to his offspring.
 As we see your mother crying, we know she is in great pain because of this stigma which is there for ever and it isolates a person and makes a person to be ostracised by the community.
 So we are compelled to delve into all this.  This is going to be very difficult, but we are determined - we will try our level best.  We therefor thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-24

ST BLESS: I also would like to ask the Commission to help us with the education of this child who is still in standard 9, because I am married and I have my own children, so I can't assist him.

DR RAMASHELA: ; This is your father's child, isn't it?

ST BLESS: Yes.

DR RAMASHELA: Chairperson, I just wanted to say that both Mrs Bless and Makhulu really, particularly Makhulu witnessed a very horrendous situation and I am just hoping that you are healing throughout these years.
 The Commission has heard your request and we'll try and act on it in our recommendations to the President.  Chairperson, I hand over to you.

BONGANI FINCA: Are there any other questions?  Let us now thank the old lady here.
 Mrs Maiqa, we should thank you for your patience in this incident, because what normally happens with people, they don't want to identify with incidents of this nature, they will be claiming that this is not their son and ask that that person should be taken out of one's yard, because it is not his child.
 And yet if it is a child, it is also your own child.  So we thank you for helping this family.
 Thandiwe, referring to you - I would say if it were 
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12
those days when I wouldn't having fear that I am supporting women or I am becoming supporting men, I would say you behaved in a manly way, because I am not trying to suggest that there are men who are brave, because there are those who are not.
 Because the patience you had to make a follow up, following the police to where your brother was, this was a brave deed.  I've been listening to you telling us that you walked and moved to the mortuary before going back to your parents.
 That is a brave deed which cannot be forgotten.  Your story indicates that the policemen have hurt a lot of people extensively, even the people who were fighting for liberation of this country.
 What is most clear is that the contribution that the policemen have made towards the Blacks, is also enormous in as far as bringing suffering to the people.
 When they say White policemen perhaps were working for the Whites, so that they could have it nice, not caring for the other races, we don't know what we have to say about the Black people.  What were they working for?
 The Black policemen.  We thank you for sharing this experience with us, we are going to make a follow up, investigate to get all the information pertaining to this matter.
 Even the requests you have said to us are going to be taken into consideration and there will be a proposal to the President.  Now, I want to say to you, the two of you and to the late Zandisile, we salute all of you.  Thank you.  Now go back.  
 Let's now take the last witness before we go for lunch.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-24

BONGANI FINCA: Mrs Mbalo, we thank you for your evidence which is very clear to us on the death of your son Fungile, who died in a very painful way, shot by the police.
 I think this is common here in Queenstown, most cases are centred around the killing of people in this manner.  
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6
We thank you for bringing this story before this Commission and your request too, which is very clear that you want to know that what had happened for your son to be shot by this policeman.
 As I said before, we are going to try and investigate about all these matters so that we get the truth.  I also said there perhaps may be some matters that we may not be able to consider due to time, but we shall try our level best because of the bad experiences and the death and loss of your children.
 We thank you Ma'am, you can now go back to your seat.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — UNKNOWN

MS BRODY: Thank you.

ADV POTGIETER: We've listened to the evidence of Mr Van Wyk and Mrs Van Wyk and we have a fair idea of the incident in question, but we would very much like to hear your evidence.
 You are one of a number of people that were directly 
QUEENSTOWN HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
23 SR BRODY
affected by the incident.  So we'd like you to share your evidence with us, to tell us what happened and what the consequences were for yourself and your two sisters who were with you when the incident happened.
 So please feel welcome and let us hear your evidence.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-24

DR RAMASHELA: Miss Charlie, I am going to ask you a few questions.  And these questions are related to your request to receive a skills training course.  The first question is what kind of treatment are you receiving now and who is paying for it?

N CHARLIE: It is my father.

DR RAMASHELA: What kind of treatment is it?

N CHARLIE: I go to East London to get treatment and they just give me some medicine and Panado tablets, then I come back.

DR RAMASHELA: Can I repeat the question.  You say you have difficulty writing.  Can you explain what happened to your fingers?

N CHARLIE: Nothing happened to my hand.

DR RAMASHELA: Am I correct, in your statement you say you have difficulty with writing, is that correct?

N CHARLIE: Yes, I have difficulty.

DR RAMASHELA: Is it related to the eyes or something else?  I want you to think a little bit.  You are giving us some ideas about skills training.  What are you thinking about in particular?

N CHARLIE: To be able to write because when I write, I don't write properly, I don't write in a straight line.
QUEENSTOWN HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
7 N CHARLIE

DR RAMASHELA: But you can read a little bit, can't you?  Do you remember the name of the Doctor you went to see before you were referred to East London?

N CHARLIE: You mean there in Sterkstroom?

DR RAMASHELA: The Doctor in East London?

N CHARLIE: The second one was Van Wyk, I can't remember the one who transferred me to East London.  The name of the Doctor is De Haak.  De Haak is now in Cape Town.

DR RAMASHELA: Thank you.

BONGANI FINCA: Are there any other questions?  Your story is very painful because you are young.
 Because at your age, you don't have an eye, you have a bullet in your head and really your life is not good.   We thank you for your story.  This Commission is going to make a follow up.  If there is any other things we would like to know, we shall come back to you.
 For now we thank you and we ask you to go back to your seat.  We shall meet at quarter to two.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-24

BONGANI FINCA: Mr December, we thank you.  I don't know
QUEENSTOWN HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
6
whether you can hear me, because I see you're facing the other way.
 We thank you sir for your story which reminded us of those trying times in the Ciskei under the Regime of the late L.L.Sebe whom they used to address as (indistinct),
who was with his brother Charles Sebe, who also died in a very painful way.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-23

BONGANI FINCA: Nohombile, I do not think you know the way in which you people touch us.  After having gone through such suffering, and when asked what the Commission can do for you, you merely ask for tombstones.
 That touches us very deeply to see the manner in which your thoughts are so humble.  In stead of asking for a lot of things from the Government you merely ask that tombstones be put on your loved ones' graves.  Whenever I hear that request, I am so deeply touched, because it is a request from very humble people.
 We thank you for your evidence and thank you also for the love that you have shown towards your husband even 
QUEENSTOWN HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
7
though he is no longer with you through your request to the Commission on behalf of yourself and your children.
 I also want to reiterate once more that there is nothing that the Commission can do on its own, we cannot make any final decisions on our own, but we rather have to make submissions to the President who will then in consultation with the Cabinet, reach a final decision.
 But I would like you to know that we have heard, we have taken cognisance of what you have said and we thank you for coming forward and we will now like to thank you and ask you to take your seat.  Thank you.