Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-16

ADV PRIOR: After Onverwacht, when you travelled to Pietermaritzburg, was there any, in your mind, was there any more information that you required from her, given what you knew already?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: There was always the possibility of new information coming forth.  She served as the acting Commander of Natal.

ADV PRIOR: But was there anything concrete or something specifically that you wanted to go for, that you needed to interrogate her about, or was it just that vague possibility that she may come up with something, you giving another interrogation session?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, there was no specific information which I had, which I wanted her to share with me.

ADV PRIOR: Now, in the Pietermaritzburg safe house, that was on the farm Elandskop, is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: How long would you say she was interrogated there?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, I worked with her for approximately two hours.  If it was indeed that long.

ADV PRIOR: Are you the only person who interrogated her at Pietermaritzburg?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct yes.

ADV PRIOR: No other person interrogated her whilst she was on the farm Elandskop?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: As far as I worked with her, from Onverwacht on the farm, I worked with her.

ADV PRIOR: Did Taylor interrogate her?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Negative Mr Chairperson.  He questioned her at Onverwacht, but not while I was working with her at  Elandskop.

ADV PRIOR: There is some indication that a Mr Labuschagne from the Eastern Transvaal Branch, had questioned her.  Are you aware of that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, I am aware of that.

ADV PRIOR: Where did that occur?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That occurred after I had already left with the informers.  One of the other applicants will testify regarding that.

ADV PRIOR: Was that usual practice?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, there was nothing strange about that at all.

ADV PRIOR: The decision to eliminate her, had already been taken at the time, or just before you left Pietermaritzburg, is that correct?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, when I left the farm, I knew that she was going to be eliminated.

ADV PRIOR: But had you discussed that with Mr Taylor?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: In the final phase, no I didn't.

ADV PRIOR: In principle?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes.

ADV PRIOR: And you had indicated to him, I think my understanding of your evidence is by the time that you left the farm, you were convinced that she wasn't going to be turned?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: The two informers, the two persons that assisted you in Swaziland, they left with you from Pietermaritzburg to Durban I understand?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct Mr Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: Would they have been aware of the decision to eliminate Ms Ndwandwe?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Negative Mr Chairperson, they wouldn't have been aware of that.

ADV PRIOR: The longer she was out of circulation from Swaziland, wasn't the risk increasingly higher that the MK/ANC structures would be aware that something was wrong?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Absolutely.  The longer the person remained out of circulation, the greater the risk.

ADV PRIOR: I need to ask you this question, is there any specific reason why you did not, having made the decision as you have told us about killing Ndwandwe, that you left just before she was to be executed?  That you were not part of that execution?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, the informers were returned by me to Durban, that was the only reason.

ADV PRIOR: But you could have been there when she was executed, and then leave the farm?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, but unfortunately I left before the time.

ADV PRIOR: So that wasn't part of a discussion or an agreement with Taylor, that they would do the execution, you would get away with the informers, or move away with the informers?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Negative.  The informers were on the adjacent farm, they weren't on that farm.

ADV PRIOR: So if I understand your evidence, it just happened that way, there was no plan or there was no design?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, there was nothing strange about that.

ADV PRIOR: You were taking the informers away and you knew that Taylor would then do the killing or oversee the killing?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, that is correct Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: I know you weren't there, but you obviously must have discussed the killing of Ndwandwe afterwards?  We know from the exhumation that there was no clothing found in the grave.  Would that have been usual to strip the body either after the killing or before the killing?  I just need to know from you whether that would have been usual or common place or are you unable to comment?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I would not be able to comment regarding that.

ADV PRIOR: Because it would seem from the objective facts that when she was buried at that grave, or in that grave, she was naked, except for a plastic, it seems like a refuge bag that was placed around her pelvic area.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, I was not present when they exhumed the body.

ADV PRIOR: Was there any discussion afterwards of how she was executed?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Mr Chairperson, it was not discussed.

ADV PRIOR: You never asked any questions of how they did it, or who pulled the trigger or whatever?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Negative, one never asked questions regarding that.

ADV PRIOR: The information you say you obtained, sorry before we move on, I have been requested to put certain things to you regarding Ms Ndwandwe.  There will be evidence if necessary from various persons, to say that Ndwandwe, Portia Ndwandwe, did not leave the Durban area after her release and that she remained in attendance throughout the Ramlakan trial as part of the audience.
Are you able to comment on that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, the case was completed and she was released in January 1986, after the completion of the Section 29 hearing.  She remained in Durban until the end of 1986/1987 when she left the country for military training.

ADV PRIOR: Can you deny that she was attending the proceedings of the Ramlakan trial?  I should imagine right up until the end of the case in 1987?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I cannot comment regarding that, because I did not attend the hearing every day.

ADV PRIOR: Would it be likely that if she had attended, the Security Branch, were they not monitoring the audience or the supporters of the accused?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Once again Mr Chairperson, I wouldn't know what the conduct or decision of that hearing was.

ADV PRIOR: Just to get clarity on that last aspect, was it the policy of the Security Branch to monitor who the supporters of the accused were in such a trial?  Would you have known who came to attend the trial or not?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, one would know who was there and who wasn't.

ADV PRIOR: The APMC of the structure, is it correct that that did not include any internally trained cadres, but was formed by externally trained cadres?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The APMC consisted of internally and externally trained terrorists Mr Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: Is it correct that in 1986, she could not have been in charge of any combat unit because it would seem on what I have heard thus far, she had not yet been trained?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: She had already been trained internally during the Ramlakan period.  If I am referring to that specific period, the APMC, the functioning of Butterfly, before the arrest on the 23rd of December 1985.