Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-10

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Yes that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Can you remember which vehicle was in front and which vehicle was at the back?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: No I cannot remember.

MR PRINSLOO: Yes what happened then?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Afterwards the people were told to sit on a hill next to the road and the people who acted as the traffic cops went ahead, it was Matthews, Van der Schyff and I think Mr Diedericks.

MR PRINSLOO: And at that stage you were still behind the chevron board?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That is correct yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And after the search was complete, what happened then?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: The people who sat on the embankment were approached by Commandant Kloppers and Martins.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you know what the interrogation was about?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: I knew yes.  Questions were put to them for example where they come from, where they're going, what political party they belong to etc.

MR PRINSLOO: And do you know what the answers were to those questions?  In general.

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: I assumed they were ANC members.

MR PRINSLOO: Why did you assume that?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Because the question was put to them, what political party they belonged to.

MR PRINSLOO: And what happened then?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Chief Commandant Kloppers moved behind the people and those who did not answer he just tapped them on the head and Mr Martin moved in front of the people.

MR PRINSLOO: Continue please.

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Afterwards Commandant Martin called us from behind the chevron board.  I do not know who was in the group, but that's where the group was formed and it was said to us then that this is the target, SACP and ANC people and this is the target that we must shoot at and that we must shoot on the first shot of Commandant Martins.

MR PRINSLOO: What did you do, did you form a line?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: After we received the instruction from Chief Commandant Kloppers I walked and found Mr Van der Schyff at one of the vehicle's boots where I said to him that he must get his gun ready, we're going to shoot these people.

MR PRINSLOO: What did he say?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: I'm referring to the pipe shotgun.

MR PRINSLOO: Yes and then?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: We moved in front of the first vehicle and the first shot was fired and everybody started shooting.

MR PRINSLOO: If you say we, does this include Mr Van der Schyff?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Who formed this line and fired?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: I assume it was everybody who was there.

MR PRINSLOO: Were shots fired towards these people?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Yes that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you yourself shoot?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Yes I did.

MR PRINSLOO: With the pipe shotgun?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Yes that's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: How many shots did you fire?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Is shot one shot.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you shoot in the direction of the people?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Yes I did.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you realise at that stage that if you shoot at those people that you could kill them.

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Yes I realise it.

MR PRINSLOO: And after the shooting stopped, what happened then?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: After the shooting stopped people jumped into the Sentra and drove away.

MR PRINSLOO: Are you now talking about the group of you?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Yes.

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: And the car hadn't even reached full sped then Commandant Kloppers said we will meet them at the Town Hall.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you remain behind?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Yes that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Who else remained behind?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: It was me, Kloppers, Martins and Gert Diedericks.

MR PRINSLOO: You've already given evidence that Mr Diedericks didn't have a weapon?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: What happened then when you stayed behind?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: At the scene I picked up some of the shells and Mr Martin and Chief Commandant Kloppers were busy with the people who were lying on the ground.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you know something about an ear?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: I heard in the vehicle that they cut the ear off.

MR PRINSLOO: So you did not see it?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: No I did not.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you then go with Martins, Kloppers and
Diedericks to the Town Hall.

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Yes, we got into the vehicle and from there we went back to Mr Martin's small holding.

MR PRINSLOO: Originally did you go directly to the small holding or did you drive somewhere else?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: No we went directly to the small holding in order to drop Mr Diedericks off.

MR PRINSLOO: Afterwards.

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: We had a drink at his house and from there we went to the Town Hall.

MR PRINSLOO: And when you got to the Town Hall, what was the purpose of the Town Hall meeting?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That was the point where we all had to come together.

MR PRINSLOO: Were there other people there?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Mr Chairperson when we got to the Town Hall there was no one there and from the Town Hall we went to Mr Badenhorst's house.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you find the other people at Mr Badenhorst's house?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Yes that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: In short what happened there?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: There it was put to us how many shots each
person fired and there everybody admitted that everyone fired a shot.  I don't know if the people were scared when they said that they fired ... (inaudible - end of tape)

MR PRINSLOO: Did you see the ear?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Yes I did.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Visser did you take part in this action on your own or on behalf of someone?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: I did it on behalf of the AWB.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you receive any remuneration for this?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: No nothing, not for myself.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you shoot at these people because of malice?  On the 16th of December of that same year, did you attend the "Verlofdedag" Festivities?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you in uniform?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: What happened there?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: It was the 16th of December, Covenant Day, we were asked by Commandant Kloppers to attend.

MR PRINSLOO: And what happened at the festivities?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: We were asked by General Oelofse to form a guard of honour for Mr Terreblanche.

MR PRINSLOO: Did Mr Terreblanche address you?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Yes he did.

MR PRINSLOO: And after you formed this guard of honour did you leave?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you arrested by the South African Police?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And then were you detained according to Section 29 of Internal Affairs.  Is that correct?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And did you make a statement to the police officer?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That is correct yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And did you do it of your own free will or what happened?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: I would not say of free will Mr Chairperson because it was put to us and our co-accused what would happen to us if we didn't make a statement.

MR PRINSLOO: Was there something showed to you, what was showed to you?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: Mr Kloppers was shown to me when he was tortured.  I could see it because he did not look normal.  His face was swollen.

MR PRINSLOO: And afterwards you appeared in court, pleaded
not guilty.  Is that correct?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That's correct Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you given evidence in court?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you tell the truth in court?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: No, some of the things were not the truth.

MR PRINSLOO: Why?

MARIUS ETIENNE VISSER: To protect myself and higher ranks.