Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-17

BONGA KHUMALO: What I am saying here is that I cannot directly implicate a person.  I was not dealing with them, what I am saying here is that I only knew about these resulting from the rumours that were circulating.  People were complaining about these things.
	People had to verify this as it was rumoured, so that we could not react upon rumour to the effect that a person is an informer.  At that time, (indistinct) was a common term used to refer to an informer.
	We therefore could not have allowed this situation to persist.  At the time, there were comrades deployed in that area which would justify the acts of certain people.  The duties of the SDU was to make sure that people are protected, but we had underground Umkhonto structures who people or structures who would verify information as to whether a person was an informer or not.
	I personally was not part of that, and as a result, I do not know what became of the Hapile case.  All I know is that she was killed.  I am trying to explain that people ...

MR LAX: Mr Khumalo, sorry to interrupt you.  You are going in a very long roundabout, is the bottom line really not this, you have no personal knowledge that these two victims were involved in?  Everything that you know about is rumours, stories that were circulating in the township about being seen in cars and all that stuff, this is just speculation and rumours and hearsay on your part, is that not correct, yes or no?

BONGA KHUMALO: No.  What I am saying here is that apart from the rumours, yes, these girls were associated with the informers.  As a result of that, this created an impression that they were informers or spies of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: You know Mr Khumalo, I am sure before you came to give evidence before this Committee, you must have been apprized by Ms Moloisane, about the relevant aspects of the evidence that you will have to testify about which would go to support the application of the two applicants, Mr Radebe and Mr Mkhwanazi.
	Your evidence must be in context and relate in a material respect, to that given by Mr Mkhwanazi and Mr Radebe.  By so saying, I am trying to say I still have not been able to understand where this evidence is taking us in relation to the applications that we have to decide on.
	Ms Moloisane, we will urge you on behalf of the Committee and in the interest of time, that you please direct questions that are really going to assist us in deciding the applications of Mr Radebe and Mr Mkhwanazi, bearing in mind the evidence already given by the two applicants.
	It is very important for us to put supporting evidence in context.

MS MOLOISANE: I do understand Madam Chair, I have explained to the witness during consultation what the purpose and the relevance of his evidence would be in this application.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I hope you will be able to intervene periodically in order to direct and redirect his evidence.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: And I am sure you will understand that you are doing this because you know what is material and what may not be that material in relation to what he wants to tell us.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you Madam Chair.  Mr Khumalo, don't be too fast, be slower and wait for questions to be posed to you, don't just go about explaining things the way that they were.
	In relation to the orders that you were required to give as the Commander of the Zone 12 Unit, did you issue any orders to either of the Unit Commanders that Hapile Nduno and Elsie Mokoena should be shot and killed?

BONGA KHUMALO: Are you talking specifically about the Nduno incident?  No.

MS MOLOISANE: Hapile Nduno and Elsie Mokoena?

BONGA KHUMALO: No, those orders did not come from me.

MS MOLOISANE: Who was in charge with such orders, with the issuing of such orders?

BONGA KHUMALO: I would like to go back and say that each one of the four Units, had their own Commanders, authorised to give such orders, without having to wait for me to issue such orders.
	Such orders were justified.

MS MOLOISANE: If I understand you well, you said in your evidence that  (indistinct) or spies had to be killed, is that correct?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: Did you issue any kind of orders to the Unit

CHAIRPERSON: Commanders that (indistinct) should be killed?

BONGA KHUMALO: What I am saying is that the order was general so that any Commander would have to kill (indistinct) on seeing one.

MS MOLOISANE: So you also said in your evidence that this order came from the organisation, is that correct, meaning the ANC?  In fact the instructions that (indistinct) should be killed.

MR LAX: He didn't say that Ms Moloisane.  He didn't say that at all.  He said the ANC had set up structures to defend the community.  It was much earlier in his testimony, but if you want to elicit that information from him, go ahead and do so.

MS MOLOISANE: Committee member, let me put it this way, did the National - the organisation give you any orders as to what had to be done with the (indistinct)?

BONGA KHUMALO: You will remember that the setting up of the SDU's were after the ANC had committed itself to peace in the country so that it could not have said that people should be killed, but the SDU's was assigned with the task of protecting the community.
	In that operation of protecting people, people would be killed, not that the ANC said the SDU's should kill people.

CHAIRPERSON: May I with your indulgence Ms Moloisane, just clear one aspect which is causing me some problems.
	You have just testified that you did not issue any order that Ms Nduno and Ms Mokoena should be killed.  You however, have gone on to say each of the four Unit Commanders were authorised to issue such an order.
	Now, who would have been the person to have given the Unit Commanders such authority?

BONGA KHUMALO: Madam Chair, I said here in particular with reference to the Nduno and Elsie incident, I did not issue any order.
	I used to issue orders to the effect that on seeing (indistinct) in the township, such a person should be killed and it transpired that Elsie and Hapile became victims following the general order, not that the order was specifically issue for them.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you therefore saying that you gave a general order as it were, to the Unit Commanders of the four blocks in Zone 12, to kill (indistinct), is that what you are saying?

BONGA KHUMALO: Yes, that is what I am saying.

CHAIRPERSON: How different is that from the order to kill the ladies in question, may we understand you on that one?

BONGA KHUMALO: What I am trying to explain here, what I am trying to say here is that I did not specifically talk or speak to a specific Unit Commander that they should go and kill Elsie and Hapile.  What I am saying is that these two became victims of a general order.
	There was no specific order for them to be killed.

MS MOLOISANE: Who issued that order, that general order that you are referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: You wouldn't know, would he, he gave a general order to specific Unit Commanders and it would be upon the individual Commanders to effect his general order.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you Madam Chair.  Earlier on you were testifying about the involvement of Hapile Nduno, Elsie Mokoena and this Meme with Gatise and other IFP people.  Would you clarify  or elaborate what you mean?

BONGA KHUMALO: I said this in response to your question as to how I knew Hapile and Elsie.  I was explaining that apart from the rumour that was circulating, a rumour to the effect that they were trafficking with the IFP, I am saying here that mostly I used to see them all together.
	I am talking here about a group of girls who used to exchange visits, and the IFP members would come and pay them visits.  That is what I am saying.