Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pretoria — 1996-08-14

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  Please be seated.

MR MSIZA: Thank you.

DR BORAINE: Now before I hand you over to Mr Ally, you can hear my voice clearly?

MR MSIZA: Yes.

DR BORAINE: Excellent.  Mr Ally.

RUSSELL ALLY: Good day to you Sir.  You are also coming to speak about what happened on that day, the march, 21st of November 1985.  Both you and your wife were part of that march and your wife was killed.  Do you want to tell us what happened on that day?

MR MSIZA: On the 21st in 1985, the 21st of November, there was a stay-away action in Mamelodi in connection with the rent issue.  All Mamelodi's people had not gone to work because we wanted to discuss the rent issue, but all the residents decided that we were going to the office.  Before people even got there more than 1000 police, there were more than 1000 police.  We got there and we gathered and I could see that there were many policemen and I moved a bit.  I told them that there were many policemen and there were many people as well.  Before the memorandum could even be handed over we heard helicopters overhead.  The Mayor, Mr Ndlazi, said that he gives us five minutes.  Before a minute had even expired they started firing teargas at us and we started PRETORIA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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running away.  My wife was also part of the crowd.  They did not shoot her at the hall, they shot her approximately one and a quarter kilometres away.  The Hippos moved around the place like rabbits.  They shot her behind the stadium. 
 Thereafter we tried to bury them, we tried to bury them and we buried them in December, on the third of December.  When we buried them, after we buried them, approximately 1985 and 1986 a trial, the trial started in 1987 at Pretoria North Magistrate's Court.  The trial continued for four years, 1987, 1988, 1989 and 1990.  August the trial was finalised.  When the trial was finalised in August we were told that the case is being referred to the Supreme Court.  We did not receive any response from the Supreme Court or any message telling us what was happening with the case.  We did not receive any message telling us to come to court because the Attorney-General is supposed to inform us to go to the Supreme Court, but we did not go.  
 In 1992 I consulted Mr Matlala, the attorney, wanting to know, because we have waited for such a long time, what is happening with the case.  Are we not going to the Supreme Court and Matlala said that the Attorney-General has not responded yet.  I said, after such a long time and he said, no, he has not responded yet.  Be that as it may, we received papers from Attorney Mohabe saying that we should come and get R1 384,00.  I went to Mohabe's office and wanted to know what was the R1 384,00 for and he said that it was funeral expenses.  I said, I did not apply for funeral expenses, I wanted to know what killed my wife and what happened.  Why did she have to die, why did they shoot her, what did she do?  Did she steal or what has she done?  I did not see Mr Mohabe sending any of his assistants to 
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come and tell me that he knows, sent his assistants to come and give me this cheque.  He did not call me in to speak to me.  I took this cheque and sent my child to go and pay his school fees at Soshanguve because the, my partner who was helping me in life they had killed and because I owed school fees.  Tell the police to come back and shoot me as well. 
 Thereafter, after the court case the policemen kept on coming to my house saying that they wanted ANC documents, accusing me of being an ANC member and saying that they were looking for ANC documents.  They ransacked my house.  My and they searched the house and then I said that we were not going to starve to death.  Then, hence I want to ask the Truth Commission because I want to know about the R1 384,00 that they considered to have been the funeral expenses.  Can you bury somebody on that amount of money?  I just cannot get to the word now.  I want them to investigate as well as the State is concerned that the State issued, whether the State issued R1 384,00 for the, to compensate me for the death of my wife because I have suffered for years with small children as a single parent.  They broke my diningroom furniture and broke down my doors and they hit my child looking for these ANC documents in my house.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you Sir.  If I could just ask you one or two questions.  This march was, the protest action was organised by the Mamelodi Civic Association.

MR MSIZA: Thank you.

RUSSELL ALLY: Were you or your wife or both of you involved in the executive of the Mamelodi Civic Association?  What was your relationship.

MR MSIZA: No, no.
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RUSSELL ALLY: You were just ordinary members?

MR MSIZA: No.

RUSSELL ALLY: Not even members?

MR MSIZA: No.

RUSSELL ALLY: You responded to the call to go and march.

MR MSIZA: Thank you.

RUSSELL ALLY: And on the day of the march you said there was a stay-away.  Now was this stay-away, was it widely supported or were some people, did some people want to go to work that day and they were prevented from going to work?  Can you just tell us a little bit about the stay-away and how it was organised and how people responded to it?

MR MSIZA: The march was a matter of force.  Everybody must go there.

RUSSELL ALLY: Were people ...

MR MSIZA: Everybody was forced to participate in this march because everyone was paying rent and the rent was far too high.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now you say that the police were there from early already.  So the police must have been aware that something was going to happen on that day because you say that there were a fleet of police cars.  You mention over 1000 police already from the early morning.  So they must have been aware that something was, so this was something that was planned a bit in advance or did it, how long did it take to plan this, this march?

MR MSIZA: The march of the 21st?  It was planned because it was planned by the Civic.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now you say that, and I am reading from your statement.  You say I also took part in the march, but I surrendered when I realised there was a fleet of police
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vans.  In other words you broke away from the march.  Now why did you do that?  Did you sense that something was going to go wrong or was there something in the, something that gave you a feeling that maybe there was going to be violence, that you broke away from the march?

MR MSIZA: Thank you.  I could see that Pharaoh's army had arrived and they were well armed, all of them.  That is what made me say that, hey guys, let us leave here because I can see that something is going to happen here because Pharaoh and his men have arrived, Herod and his men have arrived, let us run.

RUSSELL ALLY: And did other people also leave with you?  Did other people feel the same way or did they continue with the march?

MR MSIZA: They did not continue because just when they got there, before they could even hand over the memorandum to the Superintendent, they started shooting at us.

RUSSELL ALLY: Now, the previous witness and you also mention the name of Bernard Ndlazi, the then Mayor of Mamelodi.  What was the relationship of the community to this Mayor before the actual march?  Was there any other confrontation before this march with this Mayor?

MR MSIZA: No.

RUSSELL ALLY: How did the community feel about him?  Was his house ever attacked or was he ever told that he must not be the Mayor?  What was the feeling of the community towards him?

MR MSIZA: They did not want him anymore because the rent was far too high and we could not afford it anymore.

RUSSELL ALLY: And this Mayor, where is he now?  Bernard Ndlazi, is he still in the community?  Is he still in Mamelodi?
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