Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Page 6 first, what paragraph?

MS VAN DER WALT: Paragraph 4 at the bottom of the page.  This is paragraph 4 as well as paragraph 5 wherein Constand Viljoen and Ferdi Hartzenberg were present.
	I beg your pardon, paragraph 5 and then at the top of page 7, that is still paragraph 5.  Furthermore in paragraph 6, I think that paragraph 6 applies to Mr Kloppers' testimony regarding Constand Viljoen who was compelled to sow terror.
	Mr Prinsloo is just pointing out, page 22, paragraph 44 says the motives for the acts committed by myself which I committed on behalf of the AWB under instruction of Gen Constand Viljoen in cooperation with Dr Ferdi Hartzenberg.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, maybe you can pick up other areas if there are any, during lunch time.
	It is just about one o'clock, maybe we should adjourn until two o'clock.
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PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: (still under oath)

ADV VAN DER WALT: (continued)  If the Chairman would permit me, there is a video which I wish to show, it is about two minutes long.
	It is about the witness as well as the applicant Mr Martin mentioned a speech that Eugene Terreblanche made in relation to the stealing of weapons.  If the Chairman would permit me.

CHAIRPERSON: I should direct an appeal to the audience, to members of the public, we know that in cases such as this, emotion, quite understandably often run very high, but we would appeal to you to try to refrain from making remarks or passing some comments while the witnesses are busy giving evidence, because it makes a difficult case even more difficult.
	Sometimes we are not able to hear certain things which are of vital importance and therefore would you please try to restrain yourselves.  We will appreciate that very much.  Yes, Mrs Van der Walt.

EUGENE TERREBLANCHE: .

CHAIRPERSON: We didn't hear everything, but what was the substance of the message?

MS VAN DER WALT: This is where the AWB leader as it was testified, we took the one that was official, where he fired people on, told them to go and steal weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: When was this meeting?

MS VAN DER WALT: On the 24th of November 1993, in Port Elizabeth.  I think Mr Martin also mentioned this.
	I would like to hand this in as Exhibit 1.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it is the video, isn't it?  The video as Exhibit 1?

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS VAN DER WALT: And a further aspect, Mr Kloppers you testified that you were aware of the fact that Gen Japie Oelofse was arrested for bomb explosions and that he was detained along with you.  You also know that he was charged for those explosions?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know that the accused who is also detained, his surname is Van der Merwe, do you know him?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes, it is Allan van der Merwe, he was operating under Blackie Swart, under the name Blackie Swart, there was the two Visser brothers and Vermaak.

MS VAN DER WALT: I have the charge sheet here.  It was in court in Pretoria, I would like to hand it in as Exhibit C.  That concludes the evidence of the applicant.

MS VAN DER WALT: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Van der Walt, won't you try to get for us a transcript of what Mr Terreblanche is supposed to be saying on that video?

MS VAN DER WALT: I will do that.

CHAIRPERSON: And then send it to us.

MS VAN DER WALT: I will do that in the period ...

CHAIRPERSON: The next Mr Prinsloo, yes?

ADV PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Prinsloo.  Mr Kloppers, according to my instruction, you heard the testimony of Meiring as well as Matthews, it was at the road cafe when you said this was the real McCoy and you had to use the hard option.  And Gen Oelofse wanted to see corpses?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: You also conveyed to them at this road cafe that recently you attended an Order Group meeting, and this is the meeting where Gen Oelofse was?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.  When I got to the road cafe I conveyed to them that Gen Oelofse, I came from a meeting where Gen Oelofse was and Gen Oelofse said that this is the real McCoy and that he wants to see corpses.

ADV PRINSLOO: And you have also testified that in accordance with instructions by Gen Oelofse that you had to find cyanide to put into the drinking water for the people of Soweto.  Did you find the cyanide?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I had some cyanide in the boot of my vehicle when I was arrested, and it wasn't an Exhibit in the charge in court.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did the Police give a report?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: I haven't said anything about this noise, because I simply assumed that somebody is aware of it as well, and that they are doing something about it.

ADV PRINSLOO: Hopefully Mr Chairman.

MS VAN DER WALT: I did ask, but nothing is happening.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it makes it a little bit difficult to hear what the witness is saying.  Maybe we should adjourn for a few minutes until it is eliminated.
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PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: We will reconstitute.  Let's start with the story of the cyanide.

ADV PRINSLOO: (continued)   Mr Kloppers you testified that Mr Oelofse requested from you to find cyanide?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes, that is correct.  This would be part of the chemical war that we were to undergo and the cyanide would have been put into reservoirs, the drinking water for Soweto people.
	I had some of the cyanide in a small quantity in the back of my vehicle the day I was arrested.  It was not handed in at court as evidence, so I don't know what the Police did with it and if they ever found it.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Kloppers you also testified that one of the applicants, Mr Badenhorst, there at the road block, he would ... (tape ends) ...  the name of Meiring was mentioned.  He was standing at the chevron board.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: To tell the truth, at this stage, I cannot remember names, but if I said Badenhorst, then I was wrong, because Badenhorst was with Meiring behind the chevron board.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Andre Visser, he manned the blue light, is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: I would put it to you that he did not fire a single shot.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I have to put it to you Mr Chairperson, I have to go along with his word.  On the night when we met, he said that he did shoot.

ADV PRINSLOO: He would testify that he did not shoot.  Mr Kloppers, during your membership at the AWB you attended many meetings.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: At these meetings, was there any talk of violence, inciting or incitement?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: As I have said previously from 1993, these meetings the purpose of this was to incite members.  Myself and my men attended these meetings and we felt that the war had already started.

ADV PRINSLOO: Since the ANC was unbanned in 1990 and Mr Mandela was already out of prison and other ANC members were allowed back into the country, what was the AWB's attitude?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: The leadership was opposed to this.  If we refer back to phase 1 of the training document, and as I said, we opposed it.
	Mr Eugene Terreblanche, there was no negotiations because we were a para-military movement and we supported all right wing groups involved in negotiations.

ADV PRINSLOO: At several meetings Mr Terreblanche made some political statements and the movement itself, the organisation the AWB, did it have a political part as well as a military part?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: And in that sense it was also a political organisation?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It was a political organisation, but not a political party.