Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-11

MR BERGER: Is it also correct that you never told people to tie white lappies around their heads?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I didn't.

MR BERGER: And is it also correct that you never handed out the Ntelezi?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Yes, I never gave the Ntelezi.

MR BERGER: And is it also correct that you never gave any specific instructions to Mr Moloi about what should happen if the police should stop you?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: So therefore there is nothing in the Judgment on the merits which provides further information about what you did in Boipatong on the night of the massacre, is that correct?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: The only help is that I was involved, it says I was involved, I was there.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, what I want to put to you is, and this is in the light of your answer previously that the annexures which are referred to on page 96 ought not to have been referred to, you said it was a mistake.  What I want to put to you is that page 96 and 97 are not your words, that in fact they were composed by someone else.

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: What appears here is what I told them.

MR BERGER: And another reason why I want to suggest to you that these are not your words is because these very same words are annexed to each and every application for amnesty, other than Mr Mthembu's, Mr Victor Mthembu's.  Everyone else has got exactly the same words.  Surely you didn't all say exactly the same thing?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I will see, I don't know what is written in my brother's applications.  It is probable that we would say the same things because when we were doing all this we were together.

MR BERGER: When was that when you were all together?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I'm referring to the incident of the attack.

MS CAMBANIS: Sorry, Honourable Chairperson, may I be excused at this time please?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ma'am, thanks.
MS CAMBANIS EXCUSED

MR BERGER: When you gave instructions to your lawyers, the answers to the questions for amnesty, were you on your own or were you together with your other co-applicants?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I was with the other applicants.

MR BERGER: And where was this done, where you gave your answers?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: It was at Khayelitsha Hostel.

MR BERGER: And all the applicants who are presently in jail, they were present with you at Khayelitsha Hostel when you gave these answers?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: If I remember well not all of us were there.  I don't know who was there and who was not there exactly.

MR BERGER: You see Mr Khanyile, I'm going to move off now from this point but what I want to put to you is that each and every application of those who were in jail and of those who are out on bail is identical and what I want to suggest to you is that these are not your words, that they were drafted by someone else.  You can comment if you want.

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: That will not be true.

MR BERGER: The people who you named as being involved in the attack, you named Mr Victor Mthembu, how was he armed?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: He was armed with a spear.  If I remember well I saw the spear for the first time when he stabbed someone.

MR BERGER: So the State witness who said that Mr Victor Mthembu was armed with a 9mm pistol would be incorrect?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: That's not true.

MR BERGER: And again that is another mistake by the Judge in his Judgment?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Did you see Mr Thomas Lukhozi?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I know Thomas Lukhozi, not Thomas Khosi.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Berger said Lukhozi.

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I think I do have a problem with the Interpreter, sometimes I don't get the full interpretation or I don't understand.

CHAIRPERSON: With the interpretation would you please let us know because it is very essential that the questions are accurately conveyed to you, and what is conveyed from you to us is a reflection of what you've said.  Do you understand that?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Yes, I understand you.  I can say that sometimes as I speak I'm speaking the true Zulu, I don't know exactly the kind of Zulu that she is using, it's a Zulu that is used commonly within this area.  I am used to the KwaZulu Natal Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: We do understand that there may well be those differences but we want to emphasise is that if you don't understand what the interpreter is saying please let us know.

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Yes, I understand.  What the problem is, is when the answer is given to you I wouldn't be able to know whether that is a true reflection of what I've said.

CHAIRPERSON: You can rest assured that we do understand what you are saying.

MR BERGER: Mr Khanyile, did you see Mr Thomas Lukhozi on the night of the attack?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I didn't see him.

MR BERGER: Isn't it so that Mr Lukhozi was one of the leaders of the attackers?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: My personal knowledge is that there were two leaders.  Sorry I couldn't get the names.

MR BERGER: Who were the two leaders?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: It was Bhekinkosi Mkhize and Busiso Damarra Chonco.

MR BERGER: Do you know that Mr Bojozi and Mr Lukhozi were good friends?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I don't know.

MR BERGER: When was the first time that you saw Mr Victor Mthembu that night?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I saw Victor Mthembu when we were right inside Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Were you in a group with Mr Victor Mthembu?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: And who else was in this group?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Those whom I can remember is Mr Mthembu, Mr Shabango, Ghobi, Holi, Tzwee and Mfana Futi, Mehlondo Damiheza, Ephraim Makasana and another one known by the name of Gina and Themba Mabote and Damarra Chonco.  Those are the only people I can still remember.  They were people who were with me at Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these individuals that you've just mentioned in the same group in which you and Mr Mthembu were?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And as I understand your evidence Mr Khanyile, it was quite a large group that you and Mr Mthembu were in, correct?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Can you tell the Committee where Gobi is today?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I now have a problem with the interpretation.  You are saying Gobi and I said Ghobi.

MR BERGER: Well, I'll ask you again then, do you know where Ghobi is today?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I would say I normally meet him in town but I don't know exactly where he stays.

MR BERGER: How was he armed?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I don't remember.  It looked like he was holding a knopkierrie.

MR BERGER: Did you see him attacking anyone?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I remember regrading the person who was stabbed by Victor Mthembu, he was part of the group which was hitting and stabbing at that man.

MR BERGER: Besides that, did you see him attacking anyone else?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: No.

MR BERGER: Let me try and short-circuit this.  Of all the other people who you named, Makasana, Jambluti, Mfana Futi, Holi or Gholi, Tzwee, Miheza, Gina, Mabote and Damarra Chonco, are any of them still alive?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I would say personally only two of them passed away, it's Chonco and Themba Mabote.

MR BERGER: Of all the others, do you know where they are presently?