Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

MR PHOSA: However, you describe it.  You found in Mr Nieuwoudt a person whose attitude to the kind of work you are doing, was similar to yours, alike?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Your Honour.

MR PHOSA: And we will come back to that scenario.  Now, I just want to get you into my thinking and correct me if I am wrong.  To the extent that one might try and get into your frame of mind, and understand why you would want as a Policeman to deal viciously with certain people, I have the following to ask you.
	You used the examples of the targets outside the country that were dealt with by the Security as such, do you remember that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Now, you I suppose you are then saying look, that was also elimination, they are being eliminated.  Are you saying that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: When I gave the information I could have thought of the fact that it could have been elimination, yes.

MR PHOSA: You give me a problem when you become hesitant.  I am now trying to really walk your side and understand you.  But you don't have to agree with me, but just be clear.
	Are you not saying in my mind because those people were going to be eliminated and I go further and say, in fact I do know being Du Plessis, that some were eliminated, therefore being Du Plessis, I say it proves my case that elimination was the concept, it was accepted.  Are you saying that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, you can interpret it as such.

MR PHOSA: Yes, but then even in the context of a struggle that you were involved in and I am coming to your level, to your way of thinking, is there any other way that the South African Security system, Security Police, the Army, whoever, could have dealt with people outside the borders lawfully, other than eliminating them?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, there was no way.

MR PHOSA: You inside the country had an option they didn't have.  In other words, those who had to deal with ANC outside did not have the option you had of taking them to court, of house arresting them, of whatever all the things we mentioned, detention, isn't it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: So, as they say nowadays, if you compare those two, you are not really comparing apples with apples, do you understand my point?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: Now, are you telling this Committee that there were areas in the Eastern Cape, Port Elizabeth, in Port Elizabeth for instance, where the Police could not go?  I want you to say that, where they could not go?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: With ordinary vehicles, yes.

MR PHOSA: No, but there isn't an area, I want it on record here because I know that, there wasn't a single area in Port Elizabeth which the Police did not reach.  Even the shacks they reached?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct Your Honour, but we are talking about one or two people in the normal execution of their duties.

MR PHOSA: Sorry, I am not saying you are wrong.  I didn't understand, what do you mean?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I mean the ordinary policing where a person had to attend to a complaint on his own, or taking one person with him, that was not possible during that period and numerous occasions.

MR PHOSA: In the history of Police science, if there is such a thing, or Police life in South Africa or elsewhere in the world, there are always times when it is more difficult that in others to reach certain areas, isn't it, just normally?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, yes.

MR PHOSA: Even now, now with the present government, there are problems.  There are problems in KwaZulu Natal and so forth.   ANC no go areas and IFP no go areas?  Now we will have this other party as well, no go areas, you know that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: You wouldn't say now the answer to this is eliminate these gentlemen, eliminate all these people, would you say that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, I wouldn't say so.

MR PHOSA: Methods must be found of reaching those no go areas, isn't it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: As I put it to your colleague yesterday, one of the problems you had here, as I analyze your story and trying for the moment not to criticise it, it seems that you were under Policed, in other words, there weren't enough Policemen?  Understaffed?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I believe that contributed, yes.

MR PHOSA: So that is one of the areas that needed to be tried.  To give you an example as they are busy doing now in KwaZulu Natal and now in the Western Cape, that needed to be attended to, isn't it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Phosa, could I ask a question please, in connection with this.  Was another problem not that you had to resist against an upcoming political nationalist wave of black people who were claiming political rights, which they did not have?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Your Honour.

ADV DE JAGER: And was it not so that history has also proven that such a wave driven by nationalism, would be very difficult to prevent?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Your Honour.

ADV DE JAGER: And is that not the reason why the wave couldn't be stopped?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is exactly the reason.

MR PHOSA: You just said that is exactly the reason.  When did this occur to you that indeed that wave was a national, nationalistic tendency?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That was before 1980 my point of view.

MR PHOSA: You see, now it seems to me we are giving, you are presenting your own political analysis of the position, am I correct?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: But you are asking me that question Your Honour.  I am just trying to reply to you.

MR PHOSA: You mustn't suggest that anybody compelled you to answer yes or no.  Yes, to things you don't know.  You are not suggesting that, are you?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No.

MR PHOSA: I am just asking because I want to understand that you gave your own political consideration as to the reason for the conduct of the black people, you gave that thought before 1980, isn't it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: The whole onslaught, I experienced in the Eastern Cape and I believed that politically I thought myself into this picture - what would happen should it increase.

MR PHOSA: Perhaps let's ask this question.  Today  on the 25th of September 1997, you are sitting here.  Do you accept with hindsight that Mthimkhulu and Madaka were driven into whatever action they got into, by my government?  Do you accept that now?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, I would say there action led to our making that decision.

MR PHOSA: No, no, you don't follow me.  I can only assume that.  You have been telling us all things and you have been thinking about it yourself and I am asking you to say now whether you do say, agree that after all, now with hindsight, Siphiwe Mthimkhulu and Topsy Madaka, and others like them, were driven to that kind of conduct by the conditions, adverse conditions created by the government that you were serving.  Do you accept that now?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, yes.

MR PHOSA: So, would you say truly speaking, they died unjustly?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And as I understand the evidence, and please correct me on this, there is no suggestion that Mr Mthimkhulu committed any acts of violence personally, committed any crimes personally.  Everything we have heard about him has been political actions, is that so?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Your Honour.  I think there was no evidence but there was information, that at an early stage he had fired at bodyguards of Mr Buthelezi.

ADV DE JAGER: But was that not also in a political milieu that this occurred?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, sir.