Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-03

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I recognise the one that she's just read now but it is not mine, it is not true that I was in jail for sixteen years or that Themba Khosa was the chairperson.  The legal representative first read it to me in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: She has not yet finished reading it, there is still a lot to go, but are you saying that what she has just read is what you don't agree with?  You see the reason why your attorney is asking you these questions, there is a statement here which we are told she has gone through with you before.  It bears your name but it is not signed, okay?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what your attorney wants to find out is whether do you know what is written in that statement.  Some of the things that may be in the statement may be true, you may know some of the things in that you may be 23 years of age, you may have resided at 671 Newman Road, but what she wants to find out is this whole statement, do you know it?  Did you make this statement to anyone?  Is that what you want?

MS TANZER: Not whether he made the statement but once the statement was put down in writing was it ever read to him and presented to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was not read to me, it was first read to me by my legal representatives in prison.
ADV. SIGODI: I'm sorry, I did not get that answer, what was your answer about the statement.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said my legal representatives first read it to me in prison, it had not been read to me before then.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: No one had read this statement to you before, before you had tendered it?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I do not remember.  What I know is that my attorney first read it to me in prison, that was the first time.

MS TANZER: I now refer you to page 18 of the bundle.  A sworn statement which bears your signature, do you verify that this is your signature?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is possible that I signed this statement but I have made many statements before.

MS TANZER: Page 22 of the bundle.

MR MAPOMA: I'm sorry Chairperson, may I just clarify?  This bundle R, there was an affidavit which was handed in in supplement to bundle R where pages 18 up to 23 were added.  Unfortunately it was not attached into this bundle.

MS TANZER: This was a statement that was taken from you in the prison in Groenpunt and the fact that you signed it in January whilst at the TRC here, before that, do you not recognise the signature.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I recognise my name.

MR LAX: Do you - sorry, could I just clarify something here, your answer was whether - you were asked whether this was your statement, you said "yes, I recognise my name."  Does that mean you recognise your signature as being your name on the bottom of page 22?  Look at it.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said yes it's possible that is mine.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, it's not a question of whether it could be you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I did sign the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS TANZER: Your Form 1 application on page 1 of the bundle, in fact 1 until 7, yes, contains certain information which is inaccurate.  Can you clarify for this Commission or let's clear it up with this Commission some of the information which is incorrect.  Okay, firstly, what date were you born?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was born in 1973.

MS TANZER: Are you aware of the exact date in 1973 you were born?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not know.

MS TANZER: What date were you sentenced for the crimes regarding the attack on Zone 12, Sebokeng and Everton?

MR LAX: Ms Tanzer could you, just to assist us, you know if you're going to refer to a specific part of this form perhaps just alert us to which page you're referring to and then ask a question in relation to it otherwise we've got to scrabble around trying to find what you're referring to?

MS TANZER: I'll do that for the Commissioner.

UNKNOWN: Maybe while you are checking the pages, Mr Nosenga, do you know the month on which you were born?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I did mention that I do not know the month on which I was born.

MS TANZER: I going to detract that question because it actually related to something which is now a ...(indistinct)
On page 2 - at page 9(a)(ii) when you were asked to furnish sufficient particulars of the offences associated with a political objective in respect of which amnesty is sought including the date, place and nature thereof and the name or names of any other persons involved, you say 1993.  Can you clarify for this Commission what date did the offence take place?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Are you referring to the Sebokeng incident?

MS TANZER: Yes.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It happened in 1992 on the 15th June 1992.

MS TANZER: That is two days prior to the Boipatong attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MS TANZER: Were you already at the hostel on that date?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I was staying at the hostel.

MS TANZER: Who instructed you to attack these people?  The Sebokeng and Zone 12.  Zone 12, Sebokeng and Everton incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that application before us?

MS TANZER: It is before us in the sense that it's in his application in terms of Form 1.

CHAIRPERSON: That's not the application we have to concede though?

MS TANZER: No but it actually overlaps.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I understand but I just want to make sure you know.

MS TANZER: Yes, it's not the actual application before us, no.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MS TANZER: Okay.  Who instructed you to proceed with this attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The Prince Zulu.

MS TANZER: Who were your fellow attackers?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Those I remember were Michael Ramakawu, ...(indistinct) Ndlovu, I don't remember the other names, as well as Sipho if I remember well.

MS TANZER: Was Victor Kezwa in the car with you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MS TANZER: Did these people that you mention, they were in the car with you on the 15th June, did they take part in the Boipatong attack two days later?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The person I remember is Michael Ramakawu but I do not remember seeing Victor Kezwa.

CHAIRPERSON: You did not see Victor Kezwa where?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: She's asking me about the incident when we attacked Boipatong and that is what I was referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR LAX: This Sipho you're referring to, do you know what his surname is?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know his surname, just the first name.

MS TANZER: When you completed the Form 1 application you described offences that you committed on the 15th June 1992 relating to drive by shootings in Zone 12, Sebokeng and Everton.  No mention is made of the Boipatong Massacre in your application.  Can you explain to this Commission how it transpired that your activities relating to the Boipatong Massacre became known and why you are applying for amnesty in respect of this massacre?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The reason I seek amnesty for the Boipatong Massacre is because I was also involved and the people of Boipatong did not know what had happened.  That is why I also seek amnesty for the Boipatong Massacre.

MS TANZER: So you were never convicted of the Boipatong Massacre?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I was not, there were also others who were not convicted.

MS TANZER: Were you ever interrogated or charged for the crimes committed in Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I was charged for the offences I committed in Sebokeng, not Boipatong.

MS TANZER: Now on page 18 of the bundle at paragraph 2 you state that Themba Khosa chaired the IFP in the Vaal Triangle, is this correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: What I said that was he was the chairperson of the Youth Brigade, that is the IFP Youth Brigade.