Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I think it has been decided that we'll proceed in hearing the evidence of Mr Motsamai now and only after that I'll be starting leading evidence as to the victims is - as the victims is concerned, with your permission though.

CHAIRPERSON: I think everybody agreed that, that would be the most convenient method of dealing with the evidence I think.

MR BRINK: Might I ask Mr Chairman ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if Mr Visser moved down the table a bit now.

MR VISSER: While there's a lull Mr Chairman - Visser on record, I may mention to you that some person by the name of Disco Mothege spoke to me - actually spoke to Mr Wagner my attorney, during the course of the week last week.  He's a person who is mentioned by Mr Ngo and the reason why I'm mentioning this now is that he's not mentioned by Mr Motsamai.
	At page 40 of bundle A Mr Chairman, he's the fourth name there, in brackets a school teacher - that's at page 40.  Now Mr Chairman, I'm not certain what the gentleman wants and what he - whether he wants to tell you something but I did undertake that I would mention at the end of the evidence of Mr Ngo, the fact that he is present here.  He is an implicated person and that he might want to say something to you.  I can take it really - really take it no further that that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he present?  Is Mr Disco Mothege here now?

MR BRINK: Mr Chairman, I can possibly arrange to see the gentleman during the lunch adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Right, shall we continue.  Is that Mr Disco Mothege coming in now?  Mr Mothege, is there anything you wish to say to the Committee?

DISCO MOTHEGE: Yes, there is something that I need to - that I want to tell the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to give evidence or do you want to tell us something?

DISCO MOTHEGE: I just want to clear my name and the names of the - and the names of those mentioned by Ngo.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you want to do, do you want to give evidence?

DISCO MOTHEGE: I don't want to give evidence, I don't know how this is interpreted but I just want to put my version of the story.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you hear Mr Ngo's evidence?

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Brink, if you could consult with him - if you will when we adjourn ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: When we adjourn, if you will consult with Mr Brink - do you see Mr Brink sitting there - and discuss the position with him.

DISCO MOTHEGE: I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we now proceed?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I call Mr Motsamai.  Mr Chair, as far as the application of Mr Motsamai is concerned, I propose that we proceed with the application as it flows from the statement at page 146 of bundle A.  The first incident is recorded as 6.1 at page 4 of the pre-hearing meeting minute and it's described as
"The Murder in Melk Street".
I'm not so sure if Mr Motsamai has taken the oath yet.

CHAIRPERSON: He has.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: (sworn states)

ADV MEMANI: Mr Motsamai, can you tell the Committee about your application as it is stated in the papers before you, 146 - page 146 onwards?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I can tell the Committee but before, I want to
start with something here, that our office from the time we started all these incidents - I don't know if the Committee will allow me - and how we went on with our duties and then I can continue in that fashion, if you allow me.

ADV MEMANI: I think that will be in order.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Our office - we had files in our office.  These files were divided according to associations.  We had the COSATU files, African National Congress, MK files and members of the MK's, they had files.  We had files of different churches, we had files of unions which fell under COSATU, we had files of the Pan Africanist Congress, we had files of all organisations that fell under Pan Africanist Congress, like students, APLA and the women's organisations.  The same - it was the same for ANC Women's Leagues, we had files belonging to AZAPO and associations falling under it.
	Referring to students, ASASKO, AZANIO, AZAIO and the others with it's military wing.  These three associations, African National Congress, Pan Africanist Congress and AZAPO and their military wings.  We had files of all members belonging to these associations and the SACP fell under the African National Congress.  
	Now, when there were people that we were to collect after having receiving commands from our officers, we would get files of these people that we were about to arrest or collect, then we would be 
told that these people must be collected or arrested in the morning.  Again, if there were people that were supposed to be collected and brought to the office or maybe we had to target certain houses, we would get their files and we would be given a command.  
	We wouldn't just go and collect anybody in the morning.  You wouldn't just leave the office and decide to collect a certain person, we would be given a command first and we would have the file of that person whom we were to collect in the morning.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Ngo, will you please tell the Committee - Mr Motsamai, specifically about the murder that took place in Melk Street.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: We received the command from Colonel Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw.  At that time he was still Major Coetzee, his rank was that of a Major.  I was having tea in the morning and Sergeant Mamome was with them - I'm referring here to Shaw and Coetzee.  Sergeant Mamome came to me whilst I was having tea and said we must go there but I didn't know before hand that we were supposed to go there.
	He told me that: "Boyzi, we have received a command, myself and you", the command is that we must go to China's place, it's a house at the corner in Melk Street.  I asked him what are we going to do there, he said to me: "come along you will hear but probabilities were that we were going to commit murder there".

CHAIRPERSON: Did he say that you were going to commit murder there?