Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-21

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Yes, I am telling the truth.  I don't know Pitso.  Maybe if you can tell him how he looks, maybe I might say I know him.

MS TSEMANE: Would I be wrong if I said you were staying at Mr Pitso's house?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No, I just hear that from you.  All I know is that the house we were living in, staying in, I don't know who it belonged to and who the owner's name was.  But if you want me to explain to you where the house was, I can.  If maybe I was living in Sterkspruit, or a resident of Sterkspruit, I would know maybe who the owner of the house was, but you can tell the difference between Jozanna's Hoek and Jozanna's Neck because of the time I had stayed there I could differentiate between the two places.

MS TSEMANE: You say you were killing white people.  There are no whit people in Sterkspruit.  Which white people were you going to kill then in Sterkspruit?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: There are white people in Sterkspruit.  There are white people working from shops, who own shops and those working in furniture shops.  No I want you to tell me why do you say there are no white people in Sterkspruit?

MS TSEMANE: There are now white people in Sterkspruit.  The only white people who are there are there to serve the Sterkspruit community.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: But what remains is that there are white people.

MS TSEMANE: Why did you choose among these white people?  Do you realise that you are being used by that time?  By the people you have just mentioned.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No it is not like that.

MS TSEMANE: They were using you as if they were killing white people whilst they were aiming to reach for their business objectives.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I don't agree with you when you say that.  All I know is that we were killing white people because they were our enemies at that time.

MS TSEMANE: Were you not choosing whether those white people where serving the community or not?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: The people you are talking about were members of the PAC who helped us with accommodation, food and so on.  We were not working for one single person as you have said.

MS TSEMANE: In your attack, why didn't you attack the white person who was working with you in business at Sterkspruit?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I don't understand your question.  May you please repeat it.

MS TSEMANE: Why didn't you in your attack, attack this white person whom the PAC people used together with business, in business?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: There was no white people, or white person with whom we were involved in business.

MS TSEMANE: Why didn't you ever attack Mr Hattingh?  I'm talking about Mr Hattingh who drives in the 4 X 4.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Which one is that?  I don't know him.

MS TSEMANE: May you please repeat.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I told you that he belonged to "Engelfoot". It is the first time that I hear that.  If at all he was present during the day of the attack I think him as a white person could have been attacked also.  If you listen to the testimony where that boy in the 4 X 4 was shot at and then he reversed.  Our Commander said that we have to leave.  Then our Commander did a U-turn and we all left.  That boy in the 4 X 4 vehicle was also attacked.

MS TSEMANE: You made a U-turn and went away because you hurt your victims and to which you were directed from the PAC that a Score van will approach from some direction.  I have the impression that you only out to attack that van.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: I only hear that from you.  All I know is that we are going to attack white people not only that van from Score.

MS TSEMANE: You killed my father and you first started attacking the whites who were working with him.  It is Mr van Rooyen and Masheba and you didn't succeed in your operation.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: Unfortunately I didn't know that those white people were working with Mr Tsemane.

MS TSEMANE: Mr van Rooyen works in a bakery.  He was my father's boss.  Mr Masheba also worked in a bakery.  You ended up by killing my father.

MR PRIOR: The relevance of these questions, I may be able to assist the Committee.  I canvassed the questions with Miss Tsemane.  Mr van Rooyen and the other gentleman who worked at the bakery are the people that I believe were involved in the molotov, the abortive molotov attack a few days before this incident and I understand that is why this lady, the relevance of these questions are being put.  I don't think it is coming across as clear as that, but Mr van Rooyen was the owner of the bakery and his vehicle was attacked a few days before the 19th of November and I think that is the perspective of the question.

CHAIRPERSON: On the information you supplied us with earlier, Mr Prior, it was on the 3rd of November.

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman, but I'm saying it was the training operations that were alluded to in the evidence.  The information that Mr van Rooyen's vehicle was attacked, he was the baker at Sterkspruit.

MR LAX: Perhaps you could assist us here Mr Prior.  She's referred to a vehicle as a "Score" vehicle, is this the vehicle Brummer and Schroeder were in?

MR PRIOR: I understand there was no logo on the bakkie as such.

MR LAX: Is she suggesting that they would have know which vehicle they were attacking?

MR PRIOR: I think what she's putting to this, to the witness is that they were attacking the people there who worked in Sterkspruit.  Mr van Rooyen was attacked earlier with this molotov.   He was the baker at Sterkspruit and some days or weeks later the Score vehicle was attacked with Mrs Brummer and Mr Schroeder, it think that's the thrust of the questions.

MR LAX: Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: While we're on this, do you know anything about an attack on a Mr Geursel?

MR PRIOR: That's the Sterkspruit Mayaputi, we're going to hear that later, next week, Mr Chairman, with applicant Gumpha.  But that I believe occurred before.

CHAIRPERSON: The day before, apparently.

MR PRIOR: Yes.

MS TSEMANE: You have killed my father while we was trying the help Mrs Brummer and you killed them both and their blood mixed made a sacrifice for the freedom we are now in.  Thereafter if I had to hear well you are only asking forgiveness from me only.  Why is that?

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: What I've said is that I would ask Mr Tsemane's family to forgive me, because what happened didn't happen intentionally.  Our aim was to kill white people, not black people.  I think that's what I said earlier.

MS TSEMANE: The places you were always at Mbele-Mbele and Pitso's were I saw you most of the times, do you know that all those people had football clubs which were rivals?  That is why I say to you, they were using you for their aims.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: No, I don't know about that.  And whether those people were owners of football clubs, I don't know.  It's the first time I hear about that.

MS TSEMANE: You knew very well about that.  You just don't want to tell this house the truth.   I'll end up there with my questions to you.

CHAIRPERSON: You sit down please.  During the course of your questioning you referred to, as I understood it, Peter as one of the people who had been attacked in this vehicle.

MS TSEMANE: I beg your pardon, Sir, I didn't hear property.

CHAIRPERSON: You referred to, as I recollect your evidence to Peter, as one of the people who was attacked, that's Peter Schroeder.  From the way you said it, it appeared that you knew him.

MS TSEMANE: I know Peter very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I don't know if you've been listening to the evidence.  Mr Prior put certain questions saying that Peter was a Coloured man, why did they attack a Coloured man, and we stopped him on the basis that there was no evidence as to what Peter looked like, whether he would have known that Peter was a Coloured man and not a white man.  Do you understand what I am saying?