Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 2000-02-04

MR DU PLESSIS: So there's no specific instruction?  No specific words that would be uttered when the instruction or the order is given?  It can be any order for that matter, any words used in this instance?

MR GONYA: You cannot use a rocket launcher just anywhere or anyhow.  There are specific places where you can use the rocket launcher, but even in the township, you would be able to use it and in order to be able to use a rocket launcher, you had to be trained.  You can direct it to that chair and it would go straight to that target and not hit the person sitting on the right side or on the left side.  It can work anywhere.

MR DU PLESSIS: You also indicated in your evidence-in-chief that you did not see any person in the crowd being armed.  Would you agree with me that that would not be, that would not entail that there were no arms there, but it would just entail that you did not see any arms, is that correct?  Is it possible?

MR GONYA: Yes, it is possible, because I did not see them.

MR DU PLESSIS: Now, it was indicated that you heard on the radio - how did it come to your knowledge that one of the riflemen or troops was injured or shot, wherever he might be, because it's common knowledge or common cause that one of the riflemen or one of the military personnel was indeed shot.  How did it come to your knowledge?

MR GONYA: I heard that from Major Kushu, who was operating in that company, that was Rifleman Nabisa who was injured.  Maj Kushu reported that to Col Mkosana, that there was an injured man, a rifleman, who was injured.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did you hear it when it was - did you hear this report when the actual report was made on that specific day, or did you hear it at a later stage?  Did you hear it while you were sitting in the Buffel there in your chair, did you hear it then?

MR GONYA: I heard it when he was reporting it over the radio at that time.

MR DU PLESSIS: What was the exact report?  What happened to this Rifleman, this troop, what happened to him?  What was the report Sir?

MR GONYA: I did not listen attentively to what was happening because I was busy observing the crowd on the right hand side, so it was - that report was being given to Col Mkosana.

MR DU PLESSIS: I find it strange that you listened very clearly to what was said to Col van der Bank, you even go to van der Bank by Mkosana or Mkosana to van der Bank, when somebody is injured in this situation, you didn't listen properly.  Don't you find it strange Sir?

MR GONYA: It is not strange.

MR DU PLESSIS: If the Commission would bear with me a second.  So lastly I want to put it to you that it is my instructions that from my client, the applicant, Col Mkosana, that you were never instructed or - he was  - an order to direct use of the utilisation of this 40 mm grenade launcher or rocket launcher, call it whatever you want, was never ever directed to you by Col Mkosana.  That's my instructions.  Your comment?

MR GONYA: When we - Col Mkosana was the one who was supposed to give me instructions directly of what to do when we arrived there.  He had to give me specific instructions of what to do and when to do it and he did not do so, but he was supposed to do like that, so when the crowd was coming towards us, I was together with the rifleman, so I was doing what they were doing, because we were together.

MR DU PLESSIS: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr du Plessis.  Mr Mapoma, have you got any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Just a few, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Gonya, prior to the day in question, the day of the shooting, did you hear, I mean the day before the shooting, did you hear the news that those marchers will be in company of MK?

MR GONYA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mapoma, just for my clarity.  Where did this news come from?  Was it not a rumour that MK members ... (intervention)

MR MAPOMA: No, no it was not a rumour Chairperson.    Mr Mkosana said they heard from their Intelligence that MK was going to be there.  Now, when you were given this rocket launcher, did you anticipate that you may have to use it on the day of the shooting?

MR GONYA: I had no idea of what was going to happen because I didn't even know how much people were armed with and this came to me as a shock that we also have to get this rocket launcher with.

MR MAPOMA: I suppose it's because you were prepared to fight with MK, together with these people, is that correct?

MR GONYA: Yes, that is how I looked at it.

MR MAPOMA: Now when you shot this rocket launcher towards the crowd, what did you observe when the rocket launcher landed?

MR GONYA: When it landed on the ground, it exploded, there was dust and the fragments, they rose in a form of umbrella and they go up in the air and even the group of people that was coming, they stopped when they saw this dust ...(indistinct), the other people.  I put the rocket launcher at safe lock and I put it back in the car.

MR MAPOMA: Now, in your evidence now, is it possible that some people may have been injured by that?

MR GONYA: Yes, that is possible and because of the spreading of the fragments.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Has the Panel got anything further?

ADV SANDI: This grenade launcher, who did you give it to after you had finished using it?

MR GONYA: After coming back from the scene at about 5 in the afternoon or evening, late afternoon, I opened the rocket launcher and removed 2 cartridges.  Col Mkosana was also there and I told him that I used two rocket launchers round there and there were four left inside and they took the rocket launcher to the storeroom.

ADV SANDI: Was there any talk about you having used this grenade launcher without an order?

MR GONYA: They never uttered that to me and I would go to different places, no one ever told me about that.

ADV SANDI: Did you have any tear gas canisters amongst those weapons which you had to control the crowd?

MR GONYA: In the vehicle that we were in belonging to Col Mkosana, there were no tear gas canisters.

ADV SANDI: Do you know if soldiers from other groups or companies had tear gas canisters?

MR GONYA: Not as far as I know.  I cannot say whether they had them or not.

ADV SANDI: I would assume that there must have been quite a bit of talk amongst members of the Ciskei Defence Force about what was going to happen on this particular day.  A huge crowd of marchers were going to force their way into Bisho.  You must have been talking a lot amongst yourselves about what was going to happen.

MR GONYA: As far as I'm concerned, as a rifleman I don't discuss any issues in the army, I am just told as to what is going to happen on a certain date and I'm always told about operations and how the people are going to be deployed because I don't get a chance to be in a conference as a rifleman.

ADV SANDI: I'm afraid I don't understand you.  Didn't you have, from time to time, discussions with your colleagues from Ciskei Defence Force, discussions about a whole range of issues?

MR GONYA: Please repeat your question.

ADV SANDI: Did you not talk to your colleagues,  other soldiers, just ...(ethnic), conversations?  Didn't you have conversations with them?

MR GONYA: That is not possible.  If you are troops you are in the one bungalow and you will also have your own ...(indistinct) and your offices, that depends on the people who are in the senior positions, not with the riflemen.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but is it not the position that soldiers were quite concerned about what was going to happen on that day with this big crowd of people coming into Bisho?