Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-22

MZWANDILE GUSHU: As an instruction was given to kill Chris Ngwenya and to restore peace in the area, I had killed Shezwane.  I instructed Pistol Nkonyane that we should go and look for Chris Ngwenya.  We then left to look for Chris Ngwenya.  We did not find him at home.  I then told Pistol Nkonyane that we should stand by the shop.  There was a shop that was closed, a disco place, a passage and yet another shop that sold chips.  It was after seven o'clock to eight o'clock, between seven and eight.  We waited there, standing.  Fortunately they appeared.  Chris was walking between two girls.  I was standing next to the shop.  Pistol Nkonyane was standing at the path next to the disco.  I have a Markonov, Pistol Nkonyane had an AK47.  When I realised that they were between the two of us, I signalled.

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please repeat the last sentence.

MR BLACK: Mr Gushu, you must please slow down.  The translators are having difficulty.  As I say, when you speak then it gets translated into English and they can't speak at the same pace.  Okay.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: As I was standing next to the first shop, Nkonyane was standing on the passage next to the disco, I was standing by the corner of the shop, there was a road going up straight to Chris' house.  There was yet another road also going up towards the hostel where Chris emanated from with the two girls.  When I realised that they were between the two of us and it would be difficult for them to escape and go back, that's when I signalled to KK that that was the person, that he should follow my tracer bullet.

MR BLACK: Who's KK?

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please repeat the question.

MR BLACK: Who was KK?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It is Pistol Nkonyane.

MR BLACK: Okay, Mr Gushu, explain about this tracer bullet.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gushu, these two ladies were they shot at deliberately?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: No, they were not shot at deliberately.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they just victims during the operation for which you were carrying out an order?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct, they were victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BLACK: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Could you just explain, you've mentioned something about a tracer bullet.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I was trying to say that he must follow the direction to which I was shooting.

MR BLACK: Could you slowly just explain what that means?  I can't follow it and who were you trying to explain to?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I was trying to signal to Pistol Nkonyane where the enemy was, therefore he should follow the way I was shooting as I was shooting.

MS BOSMAN: Mr Gushu, did Mr Nkonyane know that it was a man who was the target?  Beforehand, when you went there, did he know you were going to shoot Chris Ngwenya?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, correct, he knew.

MS BOSMAN: So, you were showing him which man you were shooting?  You were not showing him the women?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I was not showing him the girls, but Ngwenya was between the two girls.  Chris had been trained.  It would be difficult to just say to the girls they must just get away so that we could shoot Chris.  Chris was well trained.

MR SANDI: Sorry, Mr Black, maybe you're moving onto something else.  Just on this issue.  Could you not shoot Chris Ngwenya without shooting the two girls?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It was difficult, Mr Chairperson, because it was in the evening and he was between the two girls.

MR SANDI: Could you not postpone the shooting of Chris and shoot him at some other time later when he's not with two girls in his company who can get injured?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: It would have been difficult to withdraw at that time because most of the time they were in the police station.  It was difficult to find them.

MR SANDI: Sorry, Mr Black.

MR BLACK: Yes.  Thank you.  Could you just say, when you talk about "them", and "they were in the police station", who are you referring to specifically?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: The Black Cats.

MR SANDI: Which police station is this?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: There's an old police station in Ermelo built at the brick face police station.  They stayed there.

MR BLACK: Could we just then, at the bottom of the page thirty five (35) or let me put it just while we get there.  How do you feel about the fact now that these two innocent or two women got caught up in this crossfire?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: I am very sorry, it's a painful thing.

MR BLACK: If we proceed onto the next incident at the Giwi Construction site, Bracken Construction, at the bottom of page thirty five (35).

CHAIRPERSON: You mean the foot of the page?

MR BLACK: At the foot of the page thirty five (35) there's a Mr Myeni referred to and over the page on thirty six (36) as number ten there's a Mr Christopher Masina and number eleven Mr David de Bruyn and twelve Mr Wynand Fourie.  Do you see those names?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I see those names.

MR BLACK: Now, as an explanation, the first two persons referred to, Mr Myeni and Mr Masina, those names, who were they?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: These were the security guards that Lucky and Mlungisi tied up at the time when I made them lie down pointing a firearm at them.

MR BLACK: And we have already heard, is this Mr de Bruyn who was killed and Mr Wynand Fourie who was wounded in the incident?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Correct.

MR BLACK: Mr Gushu, you've already given evidence as to the main purpose of your raid and the circumstances which led up to the raid.  Is there anything further you wish to add in respect of that?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black, he's already told us that whatever he did was in terms of an instruction and this particular incident was a direct result of that instruction.  Any purpose of finding out what else he wants to say?

MR BLACK: I'm just giving him an opportunity because I'm moving on to the next ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sometimes it's sufficient you know.

MR BLACK: Mr Gushu, if we can now move on, on the same page thirty six (36) to what is termed as number thirteen, Piet Retief operations.  Two person are mentioned there.  Mr Themba Mlangeni and Mr Alpheus Msibi.

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I can see that.

MR BLACK: Now, who was Mr Themba Mlangeni?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Before I was arrested I did not even know his name.

MR BLACK: Now, could you tell us something about Mr Msibi?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I can.

MR BLACK: Did you receive any instructions or orders with regard to Mr Msibi?

MZWANDILE GUSHU: Yes, I was given an instruction.

MR BLACK: Okay.  Could you please just tell the Committee broadly what your instructions were and why they were given in respect of Mr Msibi and what you were supposed to do?