Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Now perhaps just answer this, why did you go along in the instance of two of these people and not in the instance of all four of them?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, my position was being their Commander in the first place, I was involved with their activities as far as I was able to.  I enjoyed going out with them, it was - I didn't like being caught up in an office and it was also for moral support.  I saw it as part of my work and part of my duties and it happened that way.

MR VISSER: Can you recall the day when Ms Betty Boom was fetched?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I recall - I don't remember the exact date, but I recall the incident.

MR VISSER: Can you just give us a brief sketch of your recollection of that incident that day.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: We entered Lesotho through the Maseru border post.  We drove to - I don't know the area, the different areas in Lesotho, but we drove quite some way into Maseru, and we stopped alongside the road and a female entered the vehicle and we drove back.

MR VISSER: It was as simple as that?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: It was basically as simple as that.

MR VISSER: Mr Jantjie was under some impression about a proposed abduction of Ms Betty Boom, does that accord with your recollection?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's what we discussed yes, it is my recollection.

MR VISSER: How would the abduction issue have worked, would you have to go and make it appear as an abduction, or would that only enter the picture later?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: If something - basically, if there were other people that would witness the occasion, or if we'd received information later on that she's been seen in our presence we would have let the word go out that she'd been abducted.

MR VISSER: And would that have been to give her a cover, to justify her absence to her own organisation?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And this whole issue of the farm, can you just tell us what you know about this farm, when you started using it, for how long you used it, and how it came about that this farm was being used.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: This farm was only used for this occasion, these occurrences that have been heard by this Commission.  I'm not aware of that farm having been used for any other occasion.  To the best of my recollection, it was W/O Jagga that organised the farm.  We didn't have that farm at our disposal for longer than three or four months, as far as I can remember.

MR VISSER: Mr Jagga said two months, do you disagree with his reckoning of the time that you had it?  I think he said November and December.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I won't dispute that, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Is your recollection that it might have been longer?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: It might have been longer, yes.

MR VISSER: Alright.  But this whole affair with the four present victims, took no more than a week at a time?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: The first three.

MR VISSER: The first three took a week.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Approximately a week, yes.

MR VISSER: And KK took a day or two, isn't that correct?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I'm not - probably a day or two, I'm not quite sure if it was a day or two.

MR VISSER: Alright, well make it a week.  So in other words, you actually used the farm for approximately two weeks, is that correct?

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Visser, who's testifying here, you or him?  I mean you're leading him with times and so on, let him tell us what his recollection is, rather than you suggesting to him what the time periods are.  Please.

MR VISSER: I was trying to make it short, I didn't think it was that important.
	How long did you use this farm in total?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Probably about two weeks, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You said in your statement that you're unable to recall each and every meeting, but that you were aware of all the actions taken by the three persons in your section, is that correct?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: May I ask you, as far as the evidence is concerned that this Committee has heard, was there anything that they did, as far as you are concerned, that conflicted with any of your instructions to them or with what you expected of them?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Not that I'm aware of, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: May I then on that score immediately ask you about Mr Ngono.  At the time that Mr Ngono was discussed, can you recall precisely who were present at that, let's call it a meeting?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: No, I can't recall precisely, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And can you recall what your instructions were in regard to Mr Ngono?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I told them that they must attempt to recruit him, if that failed, then they must attempt to abduct him.

MR VISSER: Was it your intention that that instruction should mean that they should follow specifically that sequence of the order?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Was it your intention that it was an alternative order?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: When you heard when they came back that there was not attempt to recruit Ngono in Lesotho, did you consider for a moment that that was a breach of your order that you gave them?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And you accepted that what they had done was in the proper execution of the order which you'd given?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Now at this meeting where Mr Ngono was discussed, we know from the evidence of Mr Jagga that there was a file available on Mr Ngono, to which the Security Branch had access, is that correct?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Do you remember whether that file was available at the time of your meeting or meetings about Mr Ngono, and whether reference was made to the background of this person, in the file?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, I don't know if - we're coming back to the meeting as well, I don't know if the file was ... at the time that we were discussing this, but the file would have been available in our filing room if we had wanted it.

MR VISSER: Although you can't remember whether it was physically present at the time when you spoke about it?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: No, I can't remember that.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Mr Robertshaw, give the Committee the benefit how you saw your position in the Security Police during the conflict of the past and how you saw your duties, in relationship to this application for amnesty.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I'm not sure I can understand the question completely, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Well when you gave these orders, did you give it from a personal perspective or what did you think you were doing?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I gave these orders specifically as a result of the position that I was in, of the circumstances of the day, that we were actually - my impression was that we were involved in an actual war with these people and that we would have to do anything in our capabilities to try and stop what was going on, what the ANC were trying to do.

MR VISSER: Was it your aim to protect the interests of the South African Government at the time?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And who was the majority shareholder of the government of the time?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: It was the National Party, Mr Chairman.