Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-27

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: (still under oath)

MR BERGER: Mr Mbatha, what is your standard of education?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Standard four.

MR BERGER: Are you presently in custody?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: Were you released on bail when your co-accused in the criminal trial were released on bail, and have you been out of jail ever since?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: When were you released on bail?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I cannot remember the date, but I think it was in 1995.

MR BERGER: And since then, where have you been living?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I went to stay at Khayelitsha, and I went back home.

MR BERGER: Is that Khayelitsha Hostel in Sebokeng?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: When did you go home?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I stayed there for only a week and I went back home thereafter.

MR BERGER: You stayed at the hostel for a week, and then you went back home?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And that's to Nongoma?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And when did you return to the Khayelitsha Hostel?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I cannot remember very well, but I stayed home for quite a long time.

MR BERGER: Were you back in the Khayelitsha Hostel in 1997?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And you've been staying in the Khayelitsha Hostel from 1997 until now?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: Do you leave from time to time to go home?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, sometimes I go home.

MR BERGER: When did you decide to apply for amnesty?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I took that decision last year.

MR BERGER: When, can you be more specific?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I cannot remember the date, but it was just after I was discharged from hospital, round, just around the Easter holidays.

MR BERGER: So would I be correct to say that the first time that you decided to apply for amnesty was Easter 1997?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: Well when was the first time you decided to apply for amnesty?    I beg your pardon, Easter 1998?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: It was (indistinct) 1998, during the Easter holidays I was home.

MR BERGER: Yes, my question is, when did you first decide that you were going to apply for amnesty?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: It was in 1998, I cannot remember whether it was August or September, it was when I had just arrived from home.

MR BERGER: If you have a look at your application, which starts at page 210A, have a look at page 210C and you'll see there a date, the 7th of August 1998, would that be the time when you first decided to apply for amnesty?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, I can say so.

MR BERGER: Before that you had not given anyone an instruction that you wished to apply for amnesty, is that correct?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No, I did not tell or instruct anyone.

MR BERGER: Now, you told the committee yesterday that when you heard that there was going to be an attack on Boipatong, you said, "Thank you, because I've been waiting for this", remember that?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And yet you tell the committee that the first time that you ever heard about any talk about an attack was on the 17th of June 1992, am I right?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: You never attended a single meeting, prior to the 17th of June, at which there was talk of a possible attack, not on Boipatong, but of a possible attack, you didn't attend any such meeting?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Will you please repeat your question, sir?

MR BERGER: Prior to the 17th of June, you never attended a single meeting where there was talk of an attack, is that right?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: It's not right?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I never attended such meetings.

MR BERGER: Not only that, but you never heard from anyone else that there had been such meetings, am I right?   You say no, but... (intervention).

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I never heard anything to that effect.

MR BERGER: How is that possible, because we know that there were meetings prior to the 17th at which there was talk of an attack, and if you were so keen to attack, how is it possible that you never had a single conversation with anybody discussing a possible attack?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: My problem is this, I was always at work, I was only there at Kwamadala Hostel on a Monday, the date was the 15th and the following day was going to be the 16th, which was going to be a holiday, that is why I had to come back from work.   During the mampara week, I wouldn't come to the hostel.

MR BERGER: What's the mampara week?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: It is the week where you work Saturday and Sunday without a pay.

MR MALINDI: Did you sleep at your place of employment?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR MALINDI: Yes.

MR BERGER: And where was that?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: It was at Vereeniging.

MR BERGER: How often would you sleep in the hostel?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I would sleep there sometimes if I was off during weekends, I would go to the hostel and spend a weekend there.

MR BERGER: And that's how it was throughout 1991 and the first half of 1992, that you would spend weekends at the hostel, if it wasn't the mampara week?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: During those weekends, you never had a discussion with anybody during which you were told that there was talk of a possible attack?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: If you were at work on Wednesday, the 17th of June 1992, why did you not sleep there that night?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: On the 17th of June, I was at Kwamadala Hostel.  I arrived on a Monday, because I was off on a Tuesday, and I woke up early on the Wednesday, I went to work, I came back in the evening.

MR BERGER: Well that's my question, Mr Mbatha, if you went to work on Wednesday, the 17th of June, why did you not sleep there as you normally did on a Wednesday night, because you were going to go to work again on the Thursday, the 18th of June, why was it necessary for you to come back to the hostel that night?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: It was not easy to get public transport, taxis, during the weekends, it was better during the week, but it was very difficult for us to get public transport on weekends.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think what counsel is asking you is this, you've told us that you normally slept at your place of employment, and during the week of the 17th you returned to the hostel on Monday because you were not working on Tuesday, and that on Wednesday you were working, but you returned to the hostel after work.   You were working on Thursday and you were working on Friday.   Now what counsel wants to find out is, because you normally spent, if you normally slept at your place of employment, given the fact that you were working on Wednesday and you were going to go to work on Thursday and on Friday, why was it necessary for you to come back to the hostel on Wednesday, why didn't you sleep at your place of employment, as you normally do?    Do you understand the question?   Is that what you want to put, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Indeed.

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: You mean the reason that made me to come to the hostel on Wednesday or Thursday?

CHAIRPERSON: Let me see what I can explain to you in Zulu.  You told this committee, you have told the committee that you would work and sleep at work, stay over at your workplace on this week - no, no, no, not at your workplace, Ms Interpreter, during the week of the 15th, you went back to the hostel on a Monday.   You did that because you were not going to work on the Tuesday, but you were going to work on Wednesday and Thursday and Friday.   Is that so?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.