Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ... if it was only yourself that was armed, and you and your friends were pursuing these people, how did you hope to engage people amongst whom two are armed, and in your group only one person is armed?

UNKNOWN: I was not afraid of them, that's why I decided to chase them.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I am putting this question to you because as it was pointed to you earlier on the evidence against you during the trial was that you did not follow these people.  2B - 13.2	There/...
JUDGE NGOEPE	221	M H KHANYILE
There was no exchange of any fire between you and these people.  You only received a report that these were the people who had been responsible for the burning down of Mr Luthuli's house and you never saw them yourself and you never exchanged any fire with them.

UNKNOWN: In court I was not telling the truth because I was scared I would be convicted, but now I am convicted.  There is no reason for me to lie.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ... speaking for myself, it looks a little bit improbable to me that you could have dared to engage people who had two firearms and you people had only one.  You went so far as to pursue them and follow them.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Khanyile, before your attorney re-examines.  There seems to be a little discrepancy in your evidence with regard to how big a group you were.  I think in your evidence today before the Committee you indicated that you were a group of six, and in the evidence before your trial you indicated that you were a group of 12.  Now in response to questions put by Judge Ngoepe to you you stated that Mqupeni was shooting at the other two persons in your group.  Now if you were six, where were the other three persons who were supposed to be part of your group?

UNKNOWN: I said the two were having guns and shooting back.  We were six when this happened.  That is when I was shooting at Mqupeni Zulu and his friend.  The other five were also with us.  I was the sixth one.  I was referring to the IFP members that they were three and the two were shooting at us.

MR KUBONI: Let us look at the homestead of Nqobo.  How many houses are there?

UNKNOWN: There were four.
2B - 13.2

MR KUBONI: /...
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MR KUBONI: Is it possible maybe to describe whether they were huts, houses or ...

UNKNOWN: There were three corrugated iron houses and one rondawel.

MR KUBONI: And when you got in there, did you see these people you were following, to which room did they enter?

UNKNOWN: I saw them getting into a house and I know the house they got into.

MR KUBONI: ... fire shots?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MR KUBONI: Whilst the shooting was still going on, were there any screams of people who were being affected?

UNKNOWN: I could not hear any screams because there was a lot of gunfire and it made a loud sound.  I only heard the screaming from the two boys who came out of the house.

MR KUBONI: One  member of the Committee, Judge Wilson, spoke about the bullets to Nomekemeza Nqobo, which were plus-minus eight and the bullets also to a two-year old and also to the 37-year old.  When did you hear about the eight bullets that penetrated them?

UNKNOWN: I never got to know as to how many bullets penetrated their bodies.  I only heard when the police told me that there were people who had died from gunshots, and as to how many bullets penetrated each person is the first time that I am hearing before this Committee.

MR KUBONI: ... you agreed when the Judge put it to you that there were eight bullets that penetrated Nomekemeza Nqobo - six bullets, I am sorry.

UNKNOWN: At the Supreme Court, the person who was representing me a State attorney.  I did not answer many questions.  He was the one who was answering those
2B - 13.2	questions/...
MR KUBONI	223	M H KHANYILE
questions.

MR KUBONI: I am talking about today, to a member of the Committee.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I agreed with him because I thought he had first-hand knowledge, but it was for the first time that I knew that there were six bullets that penetrated Nomekemeza's body.

MR KUBONI: Can you comment about the statement that you never pursued these people, rather you went inside and you shot at the people who were there indiscriminately.

UNKNOWN: I did pursue them and they got into the Nqobo household.  That is when they got into the house and they shot us from inside the house and I shot whilst I was outside the house.  I never went into the house.

MR KUBONI: You say you just shot indiscriminately.  You cannot say in which room you shot.

UNKNOWN: I was shooting through the window and into the room opposite which I was standing.

MR KUBONI: When you heard about the burning of Luthuli's house, what were these other people armed with, that is the people in your company?

UNKNOWN: No, they were not armed.  But they had knives.  They were armed with knives and not guns.

MR KUBONI: In the pursuit, what role were they playing?

UNKNOWN: They were following me as I was pursuing the other members of the IFP.

MR KUBONI: And at the house you stated that they were on the guard, they were on the guard trying to see the other people whether they were not going to come from other directions.

UNKNOWN: Yes, that is true.  They were keeping guard
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as to whether there would be any person coming out of the house, a member of the IFP.

MR KUBONI: ... somebody did come out?

UNKNOWN: I believe that they were going to call me as I was the one who was having the firearm.

MR KUBONI: I understand also, if we may go back a bit, that where you were staying, that is in the Xele homestead, you were a group.  Was there any person who used to give you orders?

UNKNOWN: Nobody gave us any instructions.  We were just sitting there waiting for whoever was going to launch an attack so that we would also launch a counter attack.  That is what we discussed amongst ourselves that we would defend ourselves whenever there was an attack.

MR KUBONI: From the judgment it appears that you went via the Zulu kraal to the Nqobo kraal.  Can you tell this Committee how far is the Zulu homestead from the Nqobo homestead?

UNKNOWN: It is quite a distance, from the Zulu place it is quite a distance to go to the Nqobo household.

MR KUBONI: That is all for now.

CHAIRPERSON: You have told us about the size of the window and you have told us where the door was and you have told us that this house has four rooms.  How many doors does this house have?

UNKNOWN: I saw only one door, because it was the first time that I went to the Nqobo household and the door was just next to me.

CHAIRPERSON: ... into the rooms, they could only enter through this one door.

UNKNOWN: I wasn't really concerned about getting into
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CHAIRMAN	225	M H KHANYILE
the house, so I did not look whether there were other doors.

CHAIRPERSON: ... of this house for quite a while and you only saw one door.

UNKNOWN: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: How could the people of the house get out?  They could only get out through that one door.

UNKNOWN: I have no knowledge thereof.  As I have already explained that I had gone to the house for the first time.  I don't know whether there was a back door or another door through which people could escape.

CHAIRPERSON: Your companions were keeping guard to see that nobody left the house.

UNKNOWN: They were keeping watch for our assailants, but I never actually asked them as to whether there were any other doors.  They were just surrounding the house to see if there wouldn't be any escapees because there were IFP people who went into the house.

CHAIRPERSON: ... friends guarding was to make sure ... go to all the possible exits, is that not so?

UNKNOWN: The manner in which they were standing, they actually didn't want our assailants to escape.