Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

CHAIRPERSON: So how could the deceased have come and reported to you if you weren't at home?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I did say that he came to one of my harbouring places and got the message.  That's what I said yesterday if I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: When did he come to one of your harbouring places and get the message?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: First, he knew that it was not easy to get hold of me at home, so in this one particular harbouring place he came and I still had communication with him from that base.  That's where I left a message that anyone who will come looking for me I would be somewhere or at home.  And they also knew that they were not entitled to furnish any kind of information to just any person, only specific people.

CHAIRPERSON: So you now say he was looking for you and he went to one of your harbouring places and got a message to find you at home?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I think that's what I said.

ADV SANDI: When was that, Mr Makhubu, was that during the period the deceased had disappeared?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: That happened in the morning on the 24th of January before he came to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh so you already ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Please activate your microphone.

CHAIRPERSON: Before he came to you that morning he already had information that you were to be found at  your home on that day?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: That's exactly what I said.

MR RICHARD: Now taking into account that on your version there had been no communication between the deceased and the cell for a considerable period, what information could he have given to the police that you were so worried about?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: There's so  much he could have furnished to the police.  And at that time to capture an MK soldier was valuable.  So he had so much he could have disclosed to the police and in also in relation to the units as well.  He could have furnished so much to the police.

ADV SANDI: But he could also have given the police your home telephone number.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: The police had my telephone number at home that is.

CHAIRPERSON: But on this day he could have told the police that you the Umkhonto, not only soldier but commander of the unit, would be at your home where you were, and later during the day he could have told the police that the other overall commander would also be there.  So they could have arrested all of you, couldn't they, if he had told them?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I won't speak on his behalf.

MR RICHARD: I put it to you that that afternoon he hardly needed a transmitter if he had been an informer.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: That's what you are saying, it's not me who is saying that.

MR RICHARD: And taking into account that he never took part in any activity or mission with the cell, other than to locate places of hiding, if I remember you, it would have been a simple matter to just have nothing further to do with him, there was no need to execute him.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: What were we supposed to do according to you?

MR RICHARD: Have no more contact with him, tell him to leave the cell.  You had no evidence that he had informed on the cell, nothing had happened despite the presence of this supposed transmitter still nothing happened.  I'm putting it to you that even if you believed he was an informer, execution was hardly necessary in those circumstances.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: As you say.  That is your opinion.  I was in a fight then and you were not.

CHAIRPERSON: I would suggest something rather different, that from what we are now told by Mr Dube, on that afternoon without him having been put under any pressure in any way he told Mr Dube that he had been turned by the police and had operated with them.  That is what we have heard in evidence, isn't it?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: That I heard.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it not have been extremely important for the underground activities, activists, to find out from him as much as he could tell them about the police actions with informers, whether he had met any other informers, whether he knew who the handlers were and information of that nature?  Because it appeared from what Mr Dube said, that he was now prepared to disclose things.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I hear all what you say.

CHAIRPERSON: Well didn't you think it was important to find out what he'd told them about you, what names he had given to the police, matters of that kind?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: If it was today, I think this is what I could do but then it's a different time, it was a different situation altogether.  An informer then meant something.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because what amazes me, and the more I hear the more difficult I find it to accept it, is that Mr Dube who is the overall commander of numerous cells gets told by this man that he is an informer, doesn't try to find out what he has told the police, kills him but then goes on carrying on his activities for another six months or so before he leaves the country to go to Lusaka.  It just doesn't make sense to me.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Maybe Dube could be able to inject some sense in that, not me.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what about you, this was a member of your cell?  Surely it was important to you to know so you should break up your cell, form new cells, whether the police knew about your cells, would watch you?  Wasn't that important to you to know?  Are you not prepared to answer that question?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I don't know how to answer this question because you're telling me it was of great importance to this and that, at the end none of that happened.  This is why I am quiet.

CHAIRPERSON: None of it happened, you made no attempt to find out what this alleged informer had told the police, what they knew about you, whether you were in danger.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I did say that we did not ask any of that.

ADV SANDI: You did not want to ask any of that, Mr Makhubu, not so?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: What I explained, and I will again explain, is that the last time we met was that we'll sit down and talk to him, but the whole thing changed altogether that day, we decided the way we decided.

ADV SANDI: If you sincerely - if you really had a suspicion that Sicelo was an informer, were you not concerned that one of the things he would have told the police was your telephone number?  And when you phoned Sipho and Precious, were you not concerned that perhaps the police would have been listening in to the conversation and they would know what you were planning and where you were going to be?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: If my memory serves me well I did not say I called to discuss with them on the phone as to what we were going to do, the details, but what I said is I called and I told them to remain, to be alert, on standby.

ADV SANDI: Ja, the police - that is exactly what the police would have been listening in to.  I mean if they were listening in they would have heard that.

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: No, I don't know how to answer you now because I'm not a police force member and I don't know if they were monitoring my house phone or not, so I'm not is a position to explain further.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but didn't the police normally intercept telephones of the activists in those days?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Anywhere a phone would be used whether intercepted or not, but you'll still continue using the phone.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Thank you, Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: After the shooting where did you live?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: I had my places where I lived.

MR RICHARD: Did you continue however periodically going to your home?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: Yes, I periodically went home.

MR RICHARD: And where did Sipho live?

CLIVE MAHLAULI MAKHUBU: He also had his own place.

MR RICHARD: But is it not correct he also continued going to his own home?