Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-03

ADV VISSER: The next applicant will be Mr Pretorius.  His application form you will find in B, at page 67, Mr Chairman.

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: (sworn states)

ADV VISSER: Mr Pretorius, you are an applicant for amnesty before this Committee and you are requesting amnesty for any offence or crime which you might have committed or which may be found to have been committed by you during the incident which took place on the 10th of July, 1986 on the Breslau/Alldays road?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: Correct, yes.

ADV VISSER: You've completed an application form which you have in front of you?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: Yes.

ADV VISSER: You checked it and do you have any changes that you have to make?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: Just at paragraph 8(b) on page 2, where it says March 1996, Station Commissioner in Makwoin.

ADV VISSER: What should it be?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: It should be Makwoin.  The "n" should change into a "w".

ADV VISSER: Is that the only amendment?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: That is all.

ADV VISSER: So for the rest you confirm your statement as true and correct?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: Yes.

ADV VISSER: You also referred to a submission made by the Foundation for Equality before the Law and also a submission made by Jan Velde Van der Merwe, to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and you request those documents to be incorporated into your own application for amnesty in so far as it is relevant?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: Yes.

ADV VISSER: You also referred to the amnesty application of Mr Erwee in respect of the incident of that day?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: Correct.

ADV VISSER: Do you confirm that the political motive set out in your application is also applicable to you and that that is what you in fact believed at the day of the incident?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: That is correct.

ADV VISSER: On the day of the incident, where were you, where were you placed?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: I was in the casspir.

ADV VISSER: You heard the previous three witnesses' evidence who were also in the casspir, Mr Erwee, Mr Swarts and Mr Fuchs.  Do you have any reason to differ from what they said, except that I didn't see Captain Born.

ADV VISSER: You didn't see him?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: No, I didn't see Captain Born.

ADV VISSER: Apart from that, did you hear the shot from the kombi's side?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: Yes, I did.

ADV VISSER: Did you hear the swear word coming from the kombi?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: Yes.

ADV VISSER: You heard the short volley of automatic gun fire?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: Yes.

ADV VISSER: Did you hear somebody shouting they are shooting at us?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: Yes.

ADV VISSER: Did you also fire any shots on that day?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: Yes, I emptied one magazine and 20 shots.

ADV VISSER: So you used up a full magazine of 20 rounds?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: Yes.

ADV VISSER: What was your gun aimed at?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: At the kombi.

ADV VISSER: So you could have shot or hit some of the people inside the kombi?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: That is correct.

ADV VISSER: Mr Pretorius, according to your view and understanding, what was the task that you had to go and carry out as far as the passengers of the kombi was concerned?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: We had to arrest them, but not at the expense of our own lives.

ADV VISSER: Not at the expense of our own lives.  This is better, this is a clever witness which I have.  Do you think that you did anything wrong?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: No.

ADV VISSER: In terms of the specific instruction or your general instructions as a policeman?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: No.

ADV VISSER: Maybe the question could arise, why did you shoot at that stage?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: I concluded that we were being shot at and our people started shooting back and I joined in the shooting.

ADV VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.

ADV VISSER: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Rossouw?

MR ROSSOUW: I have no questions Mr Chairman.

MR ROSSOUW: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black?

MR BLACK: I have not questions, Mr Chairman.

MR BLACK: .

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Pretorius, you wanted to arrest these people.  They were shooting at you.  If I have it correctly, Mr Erwee shot 30 shots, Mr Kruger about 15, Mr Swarts about 15, you, 20 and with the pistol 9 or so shots.
	Why couldn't it have happened that you for instance shot 10 shots and then said to the people, hands up and surrender?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: According to my training, as soon as you open fire, you deliver maximum fire.  I am not prepared to go back and find out whether these people are still able to return fire, I wouldn't endanger my life like that.

CHAIRPERSON: You can shout from the casspir?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: I supposed we could have shouted from the casspir.

ADV DE JAGER: Would you say that was minimum force?

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: I am satisfied that we acted in accordance with my training and correctly.
	Perhaps we could have shot even more, but we didn't.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think Mr Pretorius maybe in fairness to you is to restate that you had your ground Commander in the casspir and you shot in his presence and he didn't say anything to stop you?
	He only gave the instructions to cease your firing after some time.

LOURENS MARTIN PRETORIUS: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?

ADV VISSER: I have no further questions to the witness, thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV VISSER: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Pretorius.