Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-03

ZUKILE MBAMBO: The reason why I still say it is still with Jimmy Jones, is because I never again heard that it was not with him any more.

MR PRIOR: Maybe just to lead on from what the Chairman has now put to you.  My information is that it was recovered in the possession of Pala Pala during at attempted armed robbery.  That was after Bahai.
	I see Adv Collett shakes her head, maybe she can assist the Committee.

MS COLLETT: I believe the position was that there had been some form of an attack, and the car was found some distance away with a puncture, with nobody in it.

CHAIRPERSON: It was found being used in an attack, in the vicinity of an attack?

MS COLLETT: Yes, it was in the vicinity of an attack, but nobody was there with it.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, just for the record, I don't propose to refer to any extent to the record of the trial as it canvasses many hundreds of pages, but suffice to refer or to place on record that the relevant portions that I have put to the witness a short while ago, appear at 1246, 1248, 1249, 1250, 1251 and 1251 of that record, and I will endeavour to have photocopies of those pages for the Committee's benefit.

CHAIRPERSON: We have got pages, haven't we, 1245, 1246, 1248.

MR PRIOR: Oh yes, that is when it was put to Ncamazana.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct)

MR PRIOR: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We have not got 1250, 1251.

MR PRIOR: With your permission, I will submit that later on in the morning.  I just want to move on to the record of evidence given at the Bahai.  Mr Pala Pala said that he was taken because you needed a driver, is that correct?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is what Mr Pala Pala said in the Bahai case, I remember.

MR PRIOR: Was that true?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Mr Pala Pala was not fetched because a driver was required.  Mr Pala Pala phoned to Ntutuzeli by those Africans after the attack of John Knox, they called Ntutuzeli and they were told that a driver was going to be sent, who was going to come this side and that driver was sent.
	They sent this Pala Pala.

MR PRIOR: He said that his understanding was that he was sent along in order to steal a vehicle at Mdantsane.  Is that correct?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: That is what he said in court.

MR PRIOR: And was that also your understanding when you went to Bahai, that a vehicle or vehicles were going to be stolen and nothing more?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: No, that is not how I saw it because when we went to Bahai, it was not that we were going to go and steal a car there.

MR PRIOR: Well, why did you go to Bahai?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: The reason for me to go to Bahai, is that the Africans after having phoned, after the incident of John Knox (indistinct), they were told that they must return with me.
	They could not then leave Bahai after that attack at Bahai, and go via me at home, that was going to waste their time.  What became clear was that let us all go together, so that when we move from Bahai, we can go straight to Transkei.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry Paddy, but you could just as easily have gone to one of the taxi ranks or gone somewhere else, been picked up at that point, and then taken to Transkei.  You didn't have to get involved in the Bahai mission?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I was required to go with them, as they were instructed that they must come back with me.  They were not told that I must go to Transkei, they were told to come back with me.

ADV GCABASHE: I understand that, but what I am saying is they were not told to include you in the mission.  They were told to take you back to Transkei.  You could have met them at any point along the road, after the mission without being involved in this mission, and gone to Transkei, isn't that right?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: You see, Ma'am, as far as my thoughts go as a soldier, at Bahai what they went to do there was a dangerous mission.  What they were told over the telephone about me except that they must bring me back, I would not know Ma'am.
	What I know is that they were told to come back with me.  They then decided that the best, let us all go together to Bahai and then from Bahai, we would then not be required to go back to the township because we were required to rush back to Transkei to avoid arrest by the Police.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understood your explanation you started off saying, as a soldier, what they were going to do was a dangerous mission.  Did you as a soldier, wanted to go with them on this dangerous mission?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: I knew what they were going to do at the Bahai Church.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you answer my question?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: The question you asked is, did I want to go with them to Bahai knowing that what they were going to do at Bahai was dangerous, and I say sir, the arrangement was that they must come back with me.
	We then decided it will not be easy that they must come from two at Bahai Church after that attack, and then come back to three, where I stay, and pick me up because also the Police would be in the rounds trying to find these people who had been involved in that attack, and that would be dangerous to them.

CHAIRPERSON: As has just been pointed out to you, you could have waited for them 50 metres down the road, you could have met them at any place, but you didn't, you went to Bahai.  I am asking you did you want to go on that dangerous mission?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Besides wanting to go there sir, it was also a manner of protecting themselves, that is not to be required to move from two, at the Bahai attack, and go back to three, to go and pick up somebody while trying to flee.

CHAIRPERSON: We told you repeatedly that they didn't have to go back and fetch you, you could have waited for them anywhere along the route, couldn't you?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Sir, we did not think that way.

CHAIRPERSON: No.  And tell me what was dangerous about a group of armed men with automatic rifles attacking people, praying or singing in a church?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: What was dangerous to us sir, is that we do not have licenses, gun licenses and what was going to be done in church was wrong and the government would arrest anybody doing that.
	And also, we did not want to have a fight with the Police because usually Police are in big numbers.  That is why we as liberation movements, we were not in a direct war with the Army, we were guerilla armies because we knew that the Police are in big numbers and they are well armed, and the plan to hit the government was to wage a guerilla war, that is what we were trying to avoid, that is the danger I was talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: So you drove away in a car stolen at the scene of the crime, which could have been described to the Police immediately?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Sir, we used a car that was fetched there, soldiers don't steal, they simply repossess sir.  Robbery and stealing are things we hear from the Police or the courts, soldiers don't steal sir, that is our language.
	The language of robbery and theft is what we hear from the Police and the courts.  We used that car, the one we possessed there from Bahai and left for Transkei.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR PRIOR: The R60-00 or R70-00 that you took from one of the females at Bahai Church, was that also repossession?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: It is repossession when we get anything from the enemy - guns, cars.  Anything we get from the enemy, we repossess.

MR PRIOR: This was one of the black ladies in the church, I refer to page 14(h) where you said in your statement to the Magistrate, your confession.  I got a sum of R60-00 or R70-00, I beg your pardon, I rephrase that, I misread that, one of the white males, I do apologise.
	Are you saying that was a repossession?

CHAIRPERSON: He made that point Mr Prior, let's go on.

MR PRIOR: Just sorry, does he concede that the money was taken?  Did that happen?

ZUKILE MBAMBO: Yes, it happened in Church.

MR PRIOR: And the money that you took at the shibeen before the Highgate Hotel incident, where you repossessed a Sierra station wagon?