Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-14

MR WAGENAAR: Mr Chairman indeed I have, the only hesitation I have at 
the moment is that I would have to hand in more than one of the pieces of work 
that I've prepared for it to make sense.  I must just inform the Committee with 
respect at this stage, that because we're not involved in the Pretoria incidents 
they have not been included in what we have prepared but subject to that 
qualification we gladly hand it to you Mr Chairman.  If you will give me a 
moment's time, Mr Chairman may we first hand in Exhibit P30, you don't have 
to concern yourself about marking the exhibits, we are keeping the exhibit list 
numbers up to date and we will hand that to you as well. So we might hand to 
you Exhibit P30 and I'll give you a short word of explanation on that so that 
you can understand, with respect, how the document is intended to work Mr 
Chairman.
	Mr Chairman looking at Exhibit 30 you will see that it consists of five 
pages, actually six but the last one is just in case a member of the Committee 
wishes to fill in any other information which I couldn't think about.  Mr 
Chairman the list approaches the matters of both Mr Motsamai and Mr Ngo on 
all the documentation that was placed before the Committee and it approaches 
the matter from the point of view of incidents.  Now I'm going to hand to you a 
further exhibit, P31 in a moment which approaches the matter from the point of 
view of persons indicated so that you have the best of both worlds we hope Mr 
Chairman to assist you in the summary of what we attempted to do.
	What we have attempted to do Mr Chairman is because Mr Motsamai 
has produced three documents, perhaps you know about them, if you don't, 
may I quickly inform you what they are.  The first is his application form, and 
then at the last hearing on the 14th of March a document was produced which 
was a hand-written document, the status of which we are not certain of Mr 
Chairman.  That was handed in as Exhibit P28.

ADV MEMANI: Is my learned friend referring to Mr Motsamai or Mr Ngo.

MR WAGENAAR: I'm referring to Mr Motsamai.

ADV MEMANI: I'm sorry but we haven't heard Mr Motsamai yet, nor have 
any documents been submitted on behalf of him.

JUDGE WILSON: Motsamai, let me just see what I have got, I've got his 
application.

MR WAGENAAR: The document produced by the official of your 
Committee Mr Chairman on the 24th of March when we were here last time.  
It's a hand written document, we've included it here Mr Chairman, we don't 
know what the statement of that document is but reference to certain incidents 
were made in that document.

JUDGE WILSON: What does it look like?

MR WAGENAAR: It's this one Mr Chairman.

MS THABETHA: It's the handwritten statement, you've got it annexed.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Chairman, why don't we proceed with the evidence 
and go and deal with these matters at the most appropriate stage?

MR WAGENAAR: Mr Chairman it is the one that looks like this, it's the 
handwritten statement that looks like this.  It's under a covering...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: It's headed Brief Description of the Violation of Human 
Rights.

MR WAGENAAR: Well mine says, Details of the Person Making Statement 
and then it goes on to say, exactly, Brief Description.

JUDGE WILSON: Mine Starts off saying, Declaration.  I Mahonaetsi 
Motsomatsi solemnly declare the information I'm about to give is correct.  The 
next page is, Details of Person Making  Statement and the next is, Brief 
Description of the Violation of Human Rights, and then are then two additional 
pages.

MR WAGENAAR: You will forgive us Mr Chairperson, we don't have the 
first page which you referred to but that is the documentation which was 
handed in as Exhibit P28 at the last hearing.

JUDGE WILSON: P28?

MR WAGENAAR: P28.  We are not addressing at all the merits of what we 
are referring to, we're simply taking you through the document, exhibit P30 to 
explain to you how it's supposed to work.
	Mr Chairman and then last week another document was produced by the 
Committee which was forwarded to us and there's a document marked 
Annexure B.  You will certainly see it at some stage or another if you haven't 
got it already.  The reason why I mention that Mr Chairman is merely for this 
purpose, to show you that Miss Motsamai has placed three documents before 
you apparently, we also don't know what the status of Annexure B is, we will 
have certain submissions later, but what we've done Mr Chairman is from the 
point of view of incidents, we have over the five pages before you dealt with 
every incident which was mentioned in the application form in the first column, 
in Exhibit P28 in the second column and in Annexure B in the third column, 
and then simultaneously Mr Chairman, in the last column we dealt with the 
evidence on the application form and the annexure thereto of Mr Ngo. So that 
the purpose is this, Mr Chairman, you could at a glance, see what incidents 
have been referred to by both these applicants, where they were referred to and 
in a sense, to a certain extent, how they either agree with each other or how 
they conflict with each other.
	That's the only purpose of Exhibit P30 is to give you a working 
document if it's of any assistance to you.  We don't hand it in for purposes of 
proof of the contents thereof, it's simply a working document.
	Mr Chairman may I then refer you to another...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: Everybody else has seen this have they?

MR WAGENAAR: Yes they have.  Mr Chairman I have also drawn, if you 
regard the contents of that, 31, I'm sorry 31, the contents of that as of doubtful 
assistance to you, well then of course you are free to ignore it but the purpose 
of this document was to approach the evidence of both Mr Ngo and Mr 
Motsomai from a point of view of the perpetrators Mr Chairman, so that when 
you deliberate on the issues at the end of the day, we felt Mr Chairman that you 
would have a summary from both points of view and we hope that that will be 
of assistance, not only to you but also to our learned friend.
	While I have the floor so to speak Mr Chairman and perhaps to continue 
with a few other household matters, at the last occasion when we adjourned we 
gave an undertaking that we would attempt to find the personal file on Mr Ngo. 
 We are told Mr Chairman that there are more than one file but we've been able 
to locate one of them.  That file has been gone through by myself and the 
documents which may be of interest to the Committee from the point of view of 
its enquiries, I have photocopied Mr Chairman and I place them before you.  
You are welcome to go through the file of course yourself, it's a fairly bulky 
file, and my learned friend is also of course very welcome to do so.  I couldn't 
find any documents other than the ones which we've got before you now, which 
we'll hand to you now, which are vaguely relevant to your enquiry Mr 
Chairman, and perhaps we could hand that up for your assistance as well.
	What we've done Mr Chairman, because it deals with the same issue as 
did Exhibit P27 at the last hearing, we have numbered them P27.1/2/11 so that 
they're all in the same area in your exhibit file Mr Chairman perhaps lastly as I 
promised, we have drafted just for you to know where we are more or less, we 
have drafted an update on the exhibit list numbers which we also hand to you 
Mr Chairman.  And then very lastly Mr Chairman, there was some, perhaps 
criticism is a strong word, but there were some doubts expressed by the 
honourable Committee members at the last hearing about a computer print out 
reflecting as is purported to do the leave of Mr Erasmus. What we've been able 
to do is to find an additional document which we beg leave to hand in under 
cover of an affidavit which actually sets out an extract from his leave file Mr 
Chairman...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: That was P26 wasn't it.