Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: As I have already said yesterday, he was alsothe spinal cord of 3 million.  When you are a leader of an organisationthat is troubling the community, as soon as you fall down we assumethat the pillar has been destroyed and the members of his gangwould not attack back as they used to attack.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But the leader was George Ramasimong and notMasusu, that was the pillar of the 3 million gang.

UNKNOWN: He was also the leader.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You testified yesterday about your connectionwith Masusu and the fact that he was your idol for what he didin soccer, you remember that?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: Now that gives me the impression you were ingood terms, you can talk to him, as you once referred to him as"Groot man", not so?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Don't you think it would have been advisableor even better instead of shooting him, as you did, to talk tohim as your "Groot man" and try to reason things outwith him?

UNKNOWN: I tried, as I said.  Whenever I talked toDuvidi he was near Duvidi.  They were close friend and they werealways together.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, but did you ever take any attempts -look, I don't think he was sleeping with George Ramasimong.  Atall times you would go to his place.  Did you take such pains?

UNKNOWN: What I can tell you, he was a person who usedto terrorise the community and they used to stay together in oneplace.  You'd never see him alone.  They'd be together at alltimes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When you shot him, that is Masusu, as you did,was he in any way armed with a weapon?

UNKNOWN: Yes, he was armed, he had a knife, a self-madeknife.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And yourself and other members of SDUs usedthe guns.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you find it having been necessary to useguns on him when he only had a knife?  Couldn't he be disarmed?

UNKNOWN: I beg yours?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Couldn't he have been disarmed?

UNKNOWN: No, there was no other way to disarm him. (inaudible) you cannot disarm someone, you just have to defendyourself so that you mustn't lose your life.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you say you were acting in self-defence?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But if Mr Thulu, if I remember well, you testified that you shot him on the back first.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Which tells me that he was facing anotherdirection other than yourself.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Where were you defending yourself there, becausehe was not even facing you?

UNKNOWN: I want to explain how I defended myself. I have already told the committee that our intention was not togo and search for him, but we had to do what I did because wewere now in their base.  You get so nervous and you think thathe is not the only person there.  Even the people who are runningaway, you get so disturbed that you think they are attacking youand then you'd attack back so that you get out of that place safe.  (APPLAUSE)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: At that time when you were attacking him asyou did, did you have it in mind that you were acting on behalfof the ANC?

UNKNOWN: Yes, because I was defending the people whowere the members of the ANC and my community.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Thulu, the Act in terms of which youhave made an application for amnesty, says that a person may begranted amnesty provided certain requirements are met.  And itis this requirement which your application must meet.  One ofthe requirements is that the Act, or in your case, the offencein respect of which you have been convicted must be associatedwith a political objective.  Do you understand what I am saying?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Now what is the political objective whichyou were seeking to achieve when you killed this man?

UNKNOWN: The objective for the reason that made meis that these people of the 3 million were terminating(?) AfricanNational Congress, and I was aware that because of our organisationbeing unbanned ....

JUDGE MGOEPE: Just start all over again.   We couldn'thear your answer.  You were answering my question to tell us whatpolitical objective was being served by or was being achievedby killing this person?

UNKNOWN: The political objective that I achieved, thatI achieved, was the voice - I saw that the people have voted forthe ANC during the elections, and that was the objective thatwe got.

JUDGE MGOEPE: No, I mean at the time when you killedhim, what political objective were you trying to pursue, at thetime when you killed him?

UNKNOWN: It was to protect the community and the membersof the ANC and I managed to get that.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I don't understand.  In which way exactly?

UNKNOWN: I want to broaden this.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Just tell me what the political objective- the exact political objective that you were trying to achieve? The whole purpose of us assembling here is, I must tell you,is to try and find out what political purpose the killing of thisperson was going to serve.  It will not help your applicationmerely to say that this man was a rapist, he killed 102 peopleand the like.  The law does not say that if somebody kills 100people you must kill him.  That is not what the law says.  Inyour case, for your application to succeed, you must tell us whatthe political objective, exactly what political objective wereyou trying to promote in killing him?

UNKNOWN: My political objective was to see to it thatmy organisation is not being terminated by the gangster, thatis being perpetrated by the former government which is NationalParty and its forces.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Your political organisation being?

UNKNOWN: ANC.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Was this man a threat to the continuedexistence of the ANC?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: In which way?

UNKNOWN: We used to have mass campaigns.  We used toprotest against the law, we used to protest against the council,making peaceful rainbow cause and whatsoever, and these peoplewho had been used to threaten the community so that the communitycan come and pay their rent forcibly and the Mayor, Osmond Sikwekwe(?)at the time and then he was told that if they don't pay they wouldbe evicted.  (APPLAUSE)

JUDGE MGOEPE: Please don't, like we asked you yesterday,please don't do that because you are not really helping his case. When we decide whether or not to give this amnesty, we are notgoing to count how many times you clapped hands for him.  Please,give him the chance to explain his case properly so that he canget the chance to apply for his amnesty properly.  We are notgoing to be influenced by whether or not you clapped hands.  Youare just really spoiling his case, please.
 Now Mr Thulu, I am going to take you step by step and you mustlisten very carefully and answer the question as it comes.  Ifyou don't understand it you must tell me.  Was there any occasionduring which these - or first let me say.  Who are these peoplethat the Mayor said or the councillor said he would send to forcepeople to come and pay rent?  Is it the 3 million gang?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Is there any occasion when in fact theydid threaten people to go and force them into doing anything?

UNKNOWN: Yes, it was just rumoured but after he hasconveyed the message we made it a point that they don't threatenthe people as he mentioned because we wanted the community tobe what we want it to be.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You have said that on occasions you heldsome protest marches.  That is, I assume it to be members of theANC, am I right?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Was there any occasion during which membersof the 3 million gang interfered with your protest marches, inthe form of trying to disrupt them or to make them fail?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Tell me more about it.