Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

CHAIRPERSON: That is on page 17 or 13?  13 yes?  Very well.  Sorry, could we just swop around?
	Yes, Mr Mtsweni, please stand.  Are you Speelman Ernest Mtsweni?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Yes, that is correct.

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down.  Yes, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Before we get into the details, may I ask you the following question, what is your relationship to the last witness, that is Phillip Mtsweni?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: My uncle.

MR RICHARD: Could you describe exactly who he is married to, is it one of your mother's sisters or is he your father's brother?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: He is my uncle because his father is my grandfather.  He is my relative, I don't know clearly to indicate the line of relationship, but he is my relative.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  What is your relationship to July Mtsweni?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: He is my brother.

MR RICHARD: In other words you share the same mother and father?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Yes, we share the same parents.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  So - now during the period 1990/1991 did you belong to any political organisation or support any political organisation?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Yes, I was a follower of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: For how long had you followed the ANC?  From when did you start?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Even though I wouldn't be able to give you the year, but since I started becoming aware, the ANC was the only organisation, therefore I supported the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Now, where did you grow up and where were you educated?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Pieterskraal, and I also went to school in Pieterskraal.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Do you agree with the description of Pieterskraal by the previous two witnesses, that it is a rural area, part of the old kwaNdebele which was still then under the influence of tribal leaders and (indistinct) and chiefs?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Yes, I do agree.

MR RICHARD: Now, how did you demonstrate your support and association with the ANC?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: The meetings which were held,I used to be one of the people present in the meeting.  Whenever there were consumer boycotts, I used to support that, whenever there were strikes, I used to participate as well.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now, you have heard the previous witnesses describe a number of events which culminated in the killing of Emma Mtsweni on the 2nd of January 1991, at what stage in those events, did you become connected with what developed?  Was it the 2nd, the 1st, before then?  Which meetings were you at?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: I arrived at the school after the meeting had been finished.  It was when they were on their way to the mountains.  Phillip and July dropped other comrades who were in their bakkies.  We got inside the forest with this person.
	When we arrived in the forest, she was questioned as to who else was involved in her work.

MR RICHARD: If I understand you correctly, Phillip and July Mtsweni came back to the school with her and it was from there that you went to the forest?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: I met them in the school after the meeting, as they were going to the mountain.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now, did you know anything about the story of Emma Mtsweni asking your brother and uncle who had named her, sorry, why they had named her as a witch, did you know any of this background?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: What I can say is that when she came and claimed that it had been alleged that she was a witch and she had said that we were the ones who accused her of witchcraft and when she was asked as to who told her that, she didn't want to reveal.  I left the whole story to the elderly because I was still young at that time, so therefore I didn't pursue it.

MR RICHARD: And you weren't at any of the meetings where that was discussed and decisions were made to refer the problem to an Ngaka and so on?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: No, I didn't.

MR RICHARD: At the time that you were at the school and people were going to take Emma Mtsweni to the mountain, what did you think they were going to do with her there?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: When I arrived at the school, the meeting was over and I did question some of the people there and I was told that they were just going to question her in the mountain.

MR RICHARD: What were they going to, let me start again, who did you ask that question?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: The person who was closer to me, it was Richard Skosana.

MR RICHARD: Did Richard Skosana belong to or support any political organisation?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Yes, he was, and that is why he was there, he was a supporter of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Were there any people there who were not supporters of the ANC?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: I would by lying, I think the people who were there, they were supporters of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Now, when you got to the mountain, what did they do to Emma Mtsweni?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: When we arrived at the mountain, Emma was questioned and what she said was she wasn't in this thing alone.  She also said that the muti that she gave them, she wasn't killing them, she wanted them to be made, the muti was just to make them crazy and she also said that she was working with Mahlangu.  When she said so, Sam Mahlangu who is a son of Mr Mahlangu, said that we must go and fetch his father as well, so that he can come and listen to the allegations.  As Sam went to fetch his father, Victor Ntuli gave the five litre container to Janya.  Janya poured the petrol over Emma and Richard Skosana came and he also poured the petrol over Emma.  I took the petrol from Richard and I also poured.

MR RICHARD: Now what did the comrades, that you were part of, believe about a person called a moloi?  What did they believe should be done to a moloi?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: We believed that the witch or moloi, is the person to be killed.

MR RICHARD: Why did you believe that a witch should be killed?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: It was part of the struggle.  We didn't need witches because we saw them as evil and as obstacles to the development.

MR RICHARD: In what way was a witch an obstacle to development?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: A witch was dangerous.  If we had to leave a witch amongst the community, a witch can destroy the community because he is an obstruction to development.

MR RICHARD: Do you believe in witchcraft?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Do you believe that witches use their magic sorcery against the ANC?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Yes, I do believe because one of the things that a witch can do, is to disrupt development and the witches didn't like what the Youth was doing, and the Youth was fighting the struggle.

MR RICHARD: Why do you think a witch might have wanted to kill your parents?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

MR RICHARD: You are the brother of the first applicant, July Mtsweni?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now my next question is, your parents had died recently within a short period from each other, is that not correct?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now my next question is, why  do you think a witch might have wanted your parents dead?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: I didn't think that a witch wanted my parents dead.

MR RICHARD: And when you heard Emma Mtsweni say what she said on the side of the mountain, what did you think?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: It was too difficult for me, because first she is the one who came to my home and accused us of accusing her of being a witch and now at the mountain, she was confessing that she had done that, and she was doing it with other people as well.

MR RICHARD: Who decided that she should die?

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: It was Skosh and Scwadi.

MR RICHARD: Did you hear either of them say that Emma Mtsweni should die?