Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

MR J VAN ZYL: ...for Mr Winter, and I cannot say why the expression "Veiligheids Gemeenskap" is used.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why do you say that the Security Police in Cradock would not have supported this?

MR J VAN ZYL: I'm not saying that.

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon?

MR J VAN ZYL: I'm not saying that, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: You're not saying that.  Are you able to contradict the evidence of Mr Winter that he told Judge Zietsman that he was in favour of the re-appointment.  We will prove the record, but would you accept that for the time being?

MR J VAN ZYL: I will accept it.

GEORGE BIZOS: If that is so, and if Mr Winter told the truth then you as the Chief Investigator on the question of life and death relating to Mr Goniwe, remained particularly ignorant of the situation in Cradock.

MR J VAN ZYL: No, if I was not informed of this matter, it means that I was not informed, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, did you ask Mr or Major Winter as to whether Mr Goniwe should live or die?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon?

MR J VAN ZYL: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ask him whether he was one of the top candidates to be dealt with in order to restore what you called "law and order" in the Eastern Cape?

MR J VAN ZYL: I personally did not ask him Mr Chairman.  He arrived sometime in 1985 and we had access to information much bigger than he had.
	I did not consult him, no.

GEORGE BIZOS: When did you speak to Major Winter in 1985?

MR J VAN ZYL: I must have spoken to him many times.

GEORGE BIZOS: Many times.  Including the period when you were involved in this  investigation?

MR J VAN ZYL: It is very possible, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Very possible?

MR J VAN ZYL: I probably did.

GEORGE BIZOS: You probably did?
	Did you discuss with him what this alleged super agitator from Oudtshoorn was doing in Cradock?

MR J VAN ZYL: That I cannot remember, Mr Chairman, if I did.

GEORGE BIZOS: You couldn't have, because his evidence in his affidavit that was read to you yesterday, he said that he did not know Mr Mhlawuli, or know anything about him.

MR J VAN ZYL: I accept that.

GEORGE BIZOS: I can't hear you.

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Winter only arrived in Cradock sometime in 1985 Mr Chairman.  I said yesterday that it was very possible that Mr Winter had little knowledge of Mr Mhlawuli.  But Mr Winter never expressed to me his recommendation or that he was for the re-appointment of Mr Goniwe.

GEORGE BIZOS: The question was actually whether you had ever asked him what Mr Mhlawuli was doing in Cradock.

MR BOOYENS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, if I can just enter at this stage.
	Mr Winter's affidavit does not say that he did not know anything about Mr Mhlawuli, he only said if you have reference to exhibit "B"
			"I didn't know Sicelo Mhlawuli at all."
	It does not say anything about I did not know anything about him.  Exhibit "B" Mr Chairman, in the first paragraph.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm sorry, what is you point?

MR BOOYENS: My learned colleague made the statement that Mr Winter's evidence was that he did not know anything about Mr Mhlawuli.

GEORGE BIZOS: I submit that in the context, the objection is not well founded.
	There are three categories which the witness refers to
"I knew Matthew Goniwe personally.  I knew him well.  I was aware of Ford Calata and Sparrow Mkhonto.  I did not know Sicelo Mhlawuli at all."
In regard to the two distinguishing factors between the first and the second, I submit that the third is quite clear that he did not know him and he did not know anything about him, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you still persist with your objection?

MR BOOYENS: I will leave it in your hands, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: You see, I didn't ask you when he came to Cradock. We know when he came to Cradock.  I asked you whether you had asked him whether he knew anything about Mr Mhlawuli.

MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot remember that I asked him Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, and if his affidavit is to be believed, he had never heard of him;  he knew nothing about him.
	Have you any comment on that?

MR J VAN ZYL: No.  He never expressed the fact to me afterwards that he did not know Mr Mhlawuli, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, we would ask to hand in the affidavit of Petrus Johannes Coetzee, the Commissioner of Police at that time, as the next exhibit "J", and his report to the Minister, marked "K", in relation to the re-appointment of Mr Goniwe.
	At the time that General Coetzee made this affidavit on 31st August 1992, he was the Commissioner of Police, as exhibit "J" makes it clear.  He was head of the Security Police whilst the Minister was Mr Le Grange.
	He says that he signed the next document, which is now exhibit "K"
		"The document on page 8, I signed on 25th June in...", in "K" '86, but in the context obviously it was intended to be '85 and we will show you why.
		"After consideration in paragraph 20 of the memorandum to the Minister, the recommendation of the South African Police in respect of action against Mr Goniwe as contained, namely that Mr Goniwe in the evenings until 6 'o clock the next morning, be restricted to his home.  In other words that is a so-called category "B" restriction order".
	And in paragraph 12, "My overall impression upon reading these documents is that the intention was to deal with the whole matter within the framework of existing legislation, so that all the interested parties interests could be satisfied and in respect of the interference with Mr Goniwe's liberties, to deal with that in a very practical matter".
	You accept that?  That this is the document of the then head of the Security Police?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And do you accept the memorandum, exhibit "K", where General Coetzee gives what the information was in relation to Mr Goniwe.  Would you like an opportunity to just glance at it?
	Now, there are two aspects in this report.  First of all there is no suggestion in this report that Mr Goniwe was involved in violent actions, nor is there anything in this memorandum which makes him the danger that you say he was on your information.  Do you agree with that?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, not all.  Mr Chairman, in paragraph 8 it is mentioned that  "It is significant  that most of these towns protest actions were launched and often accompanied by violence which led to police action."
	This is put very softly at the time.  We had a lot of information about the activities that happened after each visit of Mr Goniwe to these country areas.  There was a lot of information about the "recruitment of people to leave the country and that dealt or referred to Mr Goniwe, he was responsible for this recruitment.  He and the people closest to him".  I do not know why this was not mentioned in this memorandum.

GEORGE BIZOS: You see, Mr van Zyl, one of the questions is, do we believe you who tried to put horns on Mr Goniwe after his death, or do we accept the statement of the Commissioner of Police, that he went no further than asking people to form civic associations and to associate themselves with the UDF which was calling for a democratic solution to the country's problems?
	Where is this hard information that you speak about Mr Goniwe doing all sorts of terrible things?  Why isn't it in the Commissioner's report?

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, the Commissioner's report is quite a lengthy document.  It's eight pages.  I would like to request an adjournment that the witness can read the report properly and then he can ask my learned friend's question.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, I thought you had gone through the document.  Had you not, Mr Van Zyl?  Or didn't you have enough opportunity?

MR J VAN ZYL: I glanced through it quickly.  That is why I referred you to the excerpt in paragraph 8, Mr Chairman.