Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-01-31

MR MALAN: On November the 21st, 1990, you informed part of a group that entered Transkei with the sole purpose to execute the coup d'etat, is that correct?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Not with the purpose of taking part, but with the purpose of monitoring so that I could give a report back to the police.

MR MALAN: No, but what I want to get across, with respect, is that on the 21st November 1990 you were part and parcel of Mr Craig Duli's group with the intention to execute the coup.  That was the purpose of the group.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, I was together with them.

MR MALAN: Alright.  One of your tasks was to enter the Transkei ahead of them and to be lookout for roadblocks and so forth, is that true?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that was my task, I was tasked to look for those things by that group.

MR MALAN: This also gave you the opportunity to contact Mr Mzinyathi from Umtata Security Branch, to inform him of the proceedings.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And you did so indeed.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, I did so.

MR MALAN: They tried to execute the coup in your presence, is that true?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And you were subsequently arrested in doing so.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, we were arrested.

MR MALAN: Did you try to get across to your capturers that you were actually not part of the coup but you were planted there by government sources?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I tried to tell the people that were asking me questions, but there was no chance to do that, but I contacted the head office and I gave them the information.

MR MALAN: What happened to you at the end of the day?  Were you convicted?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I was convicted when they were also convicted.

MR MALAN: And did your superiors not come forth in the subsequent criminal case that was held at some stage in December?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Even though I had contact with them, in court they didn't come forward because they felt that I had to be inside that group to give them information, I must not tell the Court that I was part of the government but I had to continue with the job that I was doing in that group.

MR MALAN: Are you telling this Committee that you were prepared to go to jail for 15 years in an effort to monitor the people that were captured with you?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Right.  Did you foresee any loss of life in participating in the coup?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes.

MR MALAN: Do you know any person who subsequently died of these actions?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I heard about it, I heard in court.  They were named in court, but I don't know them.

MR MALAN: Did some people who formed part of Mr Duli's group also die in this effort?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes.

MR MALAN: Name some of the people who died.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I don't know their names except Mr Craig Duli.

MR MALAN: Do you know how he died?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I first heard in court how he died.

MR MALAN: Right.  Was this your sole or your whole involvement with the Duli matter?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Was there more than one person who was there in the same capacity as you?  What I tried to get across to you, were there more than you alone that were planted there to monitor the proceedings?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: When we were arrested I found out that there were other people that were doing the same job as I was doing because there was the Security Force members, National Intelligence and Military Intelligence.  We were all there with the same purpose but we were also convicted.

MR MALAN: Right.  Do you wish to disclose anything further to this Committee with regards to this matter?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, there is.

MR MALAN: Please continue.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: After I was convicted - or let me start by saying before I was convicted, as I had contact with the police head office, the chief of security would send delegates from the office so that they can brief me about the situation and they would say to me that I must continue with the job I was doing.  That happened until I was convicted.
	Even when I was sentence, a Board of Inquiry of the department in 1995 found me not guilty, they found that indeed I was working for the government.  But the Chairman of the Board couldn't just say I must go back to work at the time because he found me not guilty but there was to be a letter from the Commissioner of Police as I was released in 1985, we got amnesty.
	What was very painful is that at that time my salary that I was supposed to be getting I didn't get it.  What I would like to add is that I know that in people's minds there are people that are looking at me with a bad eye, saying that I killed people.  Yes, indeed I was part of that group but I had different intentions as I've already mentioned, but because of that that gave me a bad name.  I would like to say to them they must forgive me.

MR MALAN: Did this action of yours spring from political motivations?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Everything that happened was politically motivated at the time.

MR MALAN: Did you believe that what you were doing was right, in obeying orders and executing a coup?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: Yes, it was the right thing because I knew that by working for the government I was protecting the people.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that will be the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALAN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Malan.  Mr Nodada, have you got any questions?

MR NODADA: You have stated at the end of your evidence that everything that you did was politically motivated, what do you mean by that?

MR NODADA: I mean this.  When this all started it started on the day whereby the army overthrew the parliament that was elected by the people.  That is politics.
	Secondly, this went further.  Craig Duli was fighting against the decision that was taken pertaining to the Transkeian people, promising them things and when Holomisa stood up to fulfil the needs of the people, then it was said that he became an ANC members.  That was also politics.

MR NODADA: On whose instructions were you personally acting?  Were you acting on instructions of the government or the instructions of Col Duli?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I was taking the government's instructions.

MR NODADA: But you are aware that the coup was actually the idea of Col Duli and you allowed yourself to be involved.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: That was not Craig Duli's idea, I was not going along with Craig Duli's ideas, I was with the government, the one who instructed me to infiltrate the group.

MR NODADA: During the meetings you had with Col Duli in East London, did you tell him that you were not aligning yourself with his ideas?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: I was not allowed to do that because I was not going to get information.  He had to be sure that I was on his side.

MR NODADA: In other words, right throughout your involvement with Craig Duli, he never knew that you were acting in the interests of the government of the Transkei?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: He knew that I was a public servant in the Transkei, but regarded me as one of the people who were dissatisfied about the situation, what the government was doing in the Transkei.

MR NODADA: Is that the impression that you gave him or did you exactly tell him that you are not in agreement with what was happening in Transkei under the control of, or rather chairmanship of Holomisa?

PUMELELE GUMENGU: As I used to know Craig Duli from 1987, what made him to trust me was the fact that we were always together and at the time the ANC was still banned and we were also fighting together.  He had a full belief that when people said that they were against Holomisa's joining the ANC, he used to regard that person as the one who was telling the truth.  Yes, he was also claiming 90% and 75% from the army, from all the people.  That support was all the people who were dissatisfied about the Transkei Government.