Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-12

HASSAN MALL: Are we ready to begin?

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman, we are ready to begin.  
Mr Chairman, the matters for today are the Botswana 
operation Kahn House, Vereeniging incident and Komatipoort 
Four, on page 1, Mr Chairman.  I will hand over to my 
learned friend, that is the application of Mentz, the Mentz 
application.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Sorry, I didn't hear, what volume, what page?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, page 68 is the first matter 
that is Kahn House.

JUDGE WILSON: And whose....

UNKNOWN: Mentz's application, yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

UNKNOWN: May I beg leave to call Capt Mentz?

HASSAN MALL: Yes, please.

UNKNOWN: CALLS

UNKNOWN: (Duly sworn, states).

UNKNOWN: Capt Mentz, on page 68 the 
application starts.  You say the period was between 1989 and 
1992, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: That is correct, yes.

UNKNOWN: Could you give a closer date for us, could 
you remember?
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UNKNOWN: 75

UNKNOWN: Unfortunately not.

UNKNOWN: On page 69 you started with the explanation 
of this incident, and could you please start with the first 
paragraph.

UNKNOWN: Instructions were given that an operation in 
Botswana had to be carried out.  The purpose of the 
operation was to eliminate a business just across the border 
in Botswana and a shop as well.  There was also a house.  It 
was used as a shelter for terrorists.  It was used as a 
shelter for terrorists crossing the border, and it was used 
as a contact point where information and messages were 
passed on and help and assistance given to terrorists on 
their way to the Republic of South Africa or were returning 
from the Republic.  We expected to find at this house some 
terrorists there who would be overnighting there.  The 
target would be eliminated due to the fact that it was 
necessary to prevent the passage of terrorists across the 
border.  These terrorists, were at that stage, responsible 
for handgrenade explosions, landmine explosions, death of 
innocent civilians and also other acts of terror.   I was 
not told anything else and it must be remembered that I 
acted on the instructions of my commanding officers.

UNKNOWN: Capt Mentz, the persons using this 
particular house, the terrorists, do you know where they 
crossed the border normally?

UNKNOWN: Across the border-line not through any official 
border post where you have to show their passport, they just 
jumped the fence, as we called it.  There wasn't a very high 
or electrified fence, it was simply a farm fence and there 
was a river and on the RSA side there was just an ordinary 
fence.  And they used secret routes there. 
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UNKNOWN: 76

UNKNOWN: You say it was used as shelter and 
accommodation for terrorists crossing the border, this 
particular contact house. Is your information that 
terrorists were often to be found in that house before they 
crossed the border?

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Could you continue, please, the third 
paragraph.

UNKNOWN: The persons involved in the operation were Col 
Eugene de Kock who was in command.  He was the senior 
officer there.  The other officers were Lieut Marthinus Ras 
Jnr - Gen Ras' son.  He obtained the information and liaised 
with the local security branch in Zeerust, as well as the 
rest of the Western Transvaal area.  We also had with us 
Willie Nortje, Chappies Klopper, Marthinus Ras, as I have 
mentioned, Warrant Officer Louw van Niekerk, Charlie Chait 
and I later remembered other names  Douw Willemse, Dragon 
Andronowitz, Dawid Brits, Lionel Snyman, Snor Vermeulen, 
John Taite.

UNKNOWN: Could you please repeat those names, 
slowly, because these people have not been notified.  It is 
only brought to our attention now and you perhaps have their 
addresses or know where they could be found.  Could you 
please tell the Committee that, so that they can be 
notified.

UNKNOWN: Certainly, Chairperson.  I will repeat the 
names.  Douw Willemse, Dragon Andronowitz, Dawid Brits, 
Lionel Snyman, Snor Vermeulen, John Taite.  These persons 
are all witnesses for the Attorney-General, except for, as 
far as I am concerned, John Taite.  John Taite lives in the 
area of Knysna or George, I don't have a specific address.  
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UNKNOWN: 77

UNKNOWN: The rest, as far as I know, are all witnesses for the 
Attorney-General.  And then there were other people who were 
involved, but I can't remember their names specifically and 
I don't want to mention a name if I am not sure of his 
involvement, but there were two or three other people 
involved as well.

UNKNOWN: Capt Mentz, before we turn to the next 
page, were you involved in the planning of this operation?

UNKNOWN: At no stage, Chairperson.  I was at Vlakplaas. 
 I was a junior there.  And as I have said earlier, I 
received instructions - when I received instructions I did 
not doubt these instructions and the way in which Eugene de 
Kock had contact with the police and security head offices, 
I had no doubt that these instructions came right from the 
top, via him.  When I say from the top I mean senior 
generals and officers in the security police.  And I didn't 
call them into question, the instructions.

UNKNOWN: How did you see your involvement in this 
operation relating to the political situation in the country 
at the time?

UNKNOWN: The way I saw it, was that we were fighting the 
ANC, PAC and other liberation organisations with every means 
at our disposal.  We wanted to eliminate these people and it 
was important for us that the operation should be 
successful, seeing that this particular complex was quite 
close to the border in Botswana, and terrorists had easy 
routes, easy access to and from the Republic of South Africa 
and they also received further instructions, help and 
weapons there.

UNKNOWN: Captain, whom did you expect to find in the 
house?  You yourself, I am not talking about the planning of 
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UNKNOWN: 78

UNKNOWN: the operation, but that night when you went out, what or who 
did you expect to find in the house?

UNKNOWN: The person whose business and home it was, as 
well as terrorists.

UNKNOWN: Please continue, page 70.

UNKNOWN: I just want to add something here.  I earlier 
testified that I was at no stage involved in the planning of 
the operation or the identifying of this place, but if I 
remember correctly, I and Willie Nortje went to the 
technical branch, Pretoria, just before the operation and he 
there obtained Scorpion weapons with silencers.  These were 
prepared for us there and I waited in the car.  He brought 
the weapons out in boxes, cardboard boxes.  I helped him to 
transport these to Vlakplaas.  It was only at a later stage 
that I found these weapons at a particular farm. So I was 
involved in the transporting of the weapons from security 
technical to Vlakplaas.  
	We left from Vlakplaas with quite a few vehicles in a 
convoy to a farm near the Botswana border.  The farmhouse 
was deserted. I don't know whom it belonged to.  So we went 
to this farm near the Botswana border and slept in an empty 
house that night.  The next day we all obtained weapons, 
these specific weapons.  Some of these weapons issued to us, 
were inter alia, Scorpions fitted with silencers.  I am 
saying inter alia Scorpions, if I remember correctly, we 
only had Scorpion weapons.  On that same day the weapons 
were tested at that deserted farmhouse just to check that 
they were in good working order.  
	The same night, the same evening we went to the 
Botswana border, where we drove along various dirt roads. I 
am not exactly sure of where the place was, and we walked 
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UNKNOWN: 79