Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-07-28

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct, yes.

MR MOERANE: To arrange the second infiltration?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Correct.

MR MOERANE: When did you meet her?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, I cannot really recall any precise dates, but what I do recall is that the informer contacted me telephonically on the 12th, I think it was a Sunday and conveyed certain information to me, on the same day of the second incident.

MR MOERANE: Did you report back to her about the first incident?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, I have already stated here that I mentioned to her that the information that she had conveyed to me, had resulted in a successful infiltration, in the sense of the word that it was successful for our side.  But I did not tell her the circumstances surrounding the infiltration, or that the persons had been killed, or where the incident had taken place.

MR MOERANE: You see, you reported back to her either that the people were arrested or they escaped or they were eliminated, now which of the three did you report back to her?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, once again I simply mentioned that it had been successful, I did not say anything else.

MR MOERANE: What was she to understand by that?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I don't know Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: What did you intend her to understand?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: I had no intentions for her to understand anything.

MR MOERANE: You had an intention, you must have understood what you are conveying to her in a particular sense.  What did you intend her to understand?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, I must just state I worked with an informer, I would not have conveyed any unnecessary information to this informer, unless it was absolutely necessary.

MR MOERANE: Yes, but you have still not answered my question, you have not told this Honourable Committee what you intended her to understand by those words.

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, I have already stated it clearly, I told my informer that the information that she had conveyed to me, had resulted in a successful plan.  I also requested the informer to communicate the next infiltration as speedily as possible to me, because it was important to me and the rest of our members, nothing else.

MR MOERANE: Is it possible that she understood that to mean that the people had been killed?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, to speculate about the thoughts of the informer, is something that I will not make any statements about, I really don't know.

MR MALAN: Really I don't think that that is acceptable, you had contact over a long period of time with this person, you recruited her for a certain action during which trained and probably armed persons would be entering the country.  This informer co-operated with you and gave you full information.  This informer would have had some idea and you would have known what that idea was, regarding your planning, whether you wanted to capture these persons, charge them and detain them or whether you wanted to kill them.  I think that it is important in particular for the informer, what your opinion is about her expectations because if she was under the impression or may have been under the impression that these persons were lured or going to be lured by you into an ambush and that they were going to be killed, and if she knew that she was going to continue with this pattern, she would be sending people to their death, otherwise she would knowingly be sending people into a situation of detention and possible torture and prosecution, you must have some idea regarding what you thought the informer was doing when she was co-operating with you?  You had known the informer for almost a year, do you have an answer for us or do you stand by your statement that you have no idea what may have been going through her mind?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Really Mr Chairperson with all respect, I cannot speculate about what she was thinking.  I gave as little as possible information to her.  This informer really did not know what was going to happen to the persons, she may have drawn inferences but I will stand by that.

MR MOERANE: Well, I will argue at the end of these proceedings that you are not making a full disclosure, I just want to be fair to you.

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, I am telling the absolute truth, I can give you the fullest assurance of that.

MR MOERANE: In other words you are telling this Honourable Committee that you conveyed information to her and you do not know what you intended to convey to her, in effect that is what you are saying?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: No Chairperson.

MR MALAN: May I ask another question and follow up on this?  Why didn't you tell her thank you very much for your information, we have killed all these persons?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, it may have occurred to me that this person would not be willing to assist again, I conveyed as little as possible information to her.

MR MALAN: Are you not saying by that that you didn't think that the informer would have co-operated if she knew that you were shooting people dead?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That possibility existed.

MR MALAN: But you had no impression regarding what you thought the informer thought you were busy with?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: The informer knew what we were busy with.

MR MALAN: She knew that she was sending people to their death and that you were going to shoot them?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: At that stage I doubt whether he or she had that information.

MR MALAN: I cannot understand sir that you would say "thank you very much for your information, it was successful", but you have no idea in your mind as to what you wanted the informer to make of that information that you had communicated to her.

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Please repeat that.

MR MALAN: I find it tremendously strange that you would tell anybody thank you very much for the information that you gave me, it was successful.  You know if you tell somebody something like that, then you would understand that that person knew where the success lay or at the very least, had some notion of what you were saying about where the success lay.

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Chairperson, I can only say that when one worked with informers, one had to be very careful, it also operated on a need to know basis.  From our side in the police or Security Branch, we needed to obtain as much information as possible to combat the ANC in their activities and we had to obtain as much information from an informer as possible.

MR MALAN: Was this informer responsible for the transport arrangements with the insurgents?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: Yes, that is correct, on the South African side.

MR MALAN: And both infiltrations took place at the same place, the transport was taken to the same place?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct, yes.

MR MALAN: Thank you Mr Moerane.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, would this be a convenient time Mr Moerane, to take the lunch adjournment?

MR MOERANE: It would.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, we will now take the lunch adjournment until quarter to two.

MS LOCKHAT: Please stand.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Mr Moerane?

MR MOERANE: (continued)   Thank you Mr Chairperson.   I was still asking you Mr Theron about the period between the 8th and the 12th of June 1988, about the contact you had with your source.   You have told the Honourable Committee that you reported to the source about the success of the mission.

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: Did you discuss a further infiltration, the one that was to take place on the 12th?

FLIP KOENRAAD THERON: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOERANE: What was the nature of the discussion, what did you say to her and what did she say to you?