Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-03-30

MR NODADA: And you know that they got the money and that they also killed persons inside?  Did you ask they why they killed and injured persons instead of just taking the money?

MR MASEKO: I said that the three groups had their own commanders - they explained after that, each commander explained to me the situation what actually happened and each commander was supposed to be my eye, was supposed to keep an eye on my behalf.

MR NODADA: So you only relied on their report as far as what happened inside and you cannot in this application swear to the veracity of what they said to you?

MR MASEKO: I said so, I said I was outside, I can't confirm what actually happened because I didn't see anything with my eyes and I'm tired of this question now because I've been telling you that I was outside and now you are asking this question you are phrasing it in different directions but I've told you that I was outside, I was not inside.

MR NODADA: After you had gathered, after the operation, did you personally prepare a report which you instructed someone to record down?

MR MASEKO: Yes I asked someone to right down a report.

MR NODADA: Did you keep a copy for yourself or did you allow the original to go off without a copy remaining in your possession?

MR MASEKO: I didn't keep any copy.
ADV. SANDI: Sorry, Mr Nodada, one question on this aspect so that we do not have to come back to it - who did you ask to write the report?

MR MASEKO: I asked one of the boys who were there.
ADV. SANDI: You mean someone who had participated in this incident?

MR MASEKO: No, the person was not there in the incident.
ADV. SANDI: When you say a person, a boy who was there, where was he?

MR MASEKO: Some of the APLA members but not the person who was personally there during the incident but just one of the APLA members.
ADV. SANDI: Thank you.

MR NODADA: We see on the list of the report that is page 22 that your name Njebe does not appear there amongst the eight people who were in that unit.  Is that a mistake?

MR MASEKO: That is one of the mistakes because I said I'm not Zambi I'm Njebe.  I was Njebe.

MR NODADA: Do you know this Zambi?  Do you know this Zambi that is this Zambi whose listed as the commander instead of you?

MR MASEKO: I said they were actually referring to me but I'm Njebe not Zambi, there's a mistake.

MR NODADA: So the person you instructed to write the report made a mistake of your name and wrote Zambi instead of Njebe?

MR MASEKO: That's correct.
ADV. GCABASHE: Could I just ask, are you saying there is no such person as Zambi?

MR MASEKO: I said I'm Njebe, there's no one called Zambi that's one mistake and the other one is the once when they said there were eight firearms where we had only seven.

MR NODADA: So when you are reading this report, you didn't pick up this name Zambi instead of Njebe, you also didn't pick up this mistake of eight firearms instead of seven firearms?

MR MASEKO: No I didn't realise that.

MR NODADA: Would you be able to dispute - now we're going back to the auditorium, to dispute that your members who were inside the auditorium just fired shots before there was even a resistance or at least an indication that there was going to be a resistance?

MR MASEKO: I deny that because the soldiers were taking orders that's why I deny that.  They were not doing their own things but they were following orders.

MR NODADA: You deny it because you believe what you were told by your commanders instead of believing what was seen by eyewitnesses inside?  Is that the case?

MR MASEKO: I trust my commanders.

MR NODADA: Right, do you have by the way of identification any document other than the letter that forms an annexure to your affidavit that you were a member of the Azanian Peoples Organisation?

MR MASEKO: I'm sure that they can be able to explain that.  APLA members didn't have identity cards, anything that would show because the reason is that those cards would put us in dangers.  We wouldn't be able to make card for a lot of people, the card would even fall and get lost and a person would be in danger, a person whose card is lost would be in danger that's why didn't have such I.D.'s.

MR NODADA: But I suppose there must have been a record in the offices of the - like for instance in the head office of the organisation where the names of members who would not go out with any identification cards were actually recorded?  Are you aware of any arrangement like that?

MR MASEKO: As I was not working in the office I don't know that.

MR NODADA: Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NODADA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Maseko is it correct if I look at page 65 of the bundle, I refer to the statement that was made in Westonaria and this is just by way of background.  You indicated that on the 18th June 1986 you left the country, you went to Botswana where you joined the PAC of Azania and stayed there until December '86 where you then left for Tanzania?  Is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

UNKNOWN: So it would seem you joined the PAC outside of the Republic is that correct?

MR MASEKO: At that time here in South Africa the PAC was not existing.

UNKNOWN: Alright, you've gone through the statement that forms part of the bundle, page 65 onwards and I'm only referring to the background, I'm not referring to any specific incident where you were involved, where you tell about your training where you underwent in Botswana and Rhodesia as it then was known, Boputhatswana and so on.  Do you agree with the facts that relate to your background and your training?

MR MASEKO: Yes sir.

UNKNOWN: When you say you did not have an identification card, are you aware of any record of your membership of APLA and or the PAC being kept anywhere by the organisation or were no such records ever kept?

MR MASEKO: I didn't get that question sir?

UNKNOWN: Are you aware of any record kept of your membership or your status within APLA or the PAC whether it was in the head office, overseas or whether it was in the country, at any place, are you aware of any record being kept of your membership within the organisation APLA?

MR MASEKO: I don't know anything about that, I agree that there could be something like that but I didn't know anything.

UNKNOWN: Now at page 67 of the bundle you indicated in that statement that from Botswana and Lesotho you were told to go to the Transkei and there you were given a new unit which was called Beauty Salon or Saloon?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

UNKNOWN: And who actually instructed you to return to the Transkei at that time?

MR MASEKO: It was the Director of Operations for APLA.

UNKNOWN: Was that Mr Letlape Mhapalele?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

UNKNOWN: And did he meet you in Botswana or Lesotho or how did he communicate that instruction to you?

MR MASEKO: We met at some stage and we talked.

UNKNOWN: And are you able to assist the Committee in putting a time frame on that meeting when you started Beauty Salon, the repossession units, can you remember more or less when that happened?

MR MASEKO: I can't remember the year or which year was it but I think it was towards the end of 1990 or beginning of 1991.

UNKNOWN: And do I understand you correctly that you, this was your elite unit, this was a new unit that had been formed, it was a new strategy within APLA to embark on repossession of assets, money, arms, jewellery for the cause, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: Yes that was a new unit.

UNKNOWN: The identification of the University of Umtata, that was, as I understood it, information had been received from a female comrade within the organisation, is that correct?

MR MASEKO: That's correct sir.

UNKNOWN: And are you able to identify that person?

MR MASEKO: I can't tell you where is she now but her name was Nolita, she was a student in that university.

UNKNOWN: Was that also a code name, Nolita?