Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-18

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: With regard to you, you have already given evidence regarding that, however the evidence of Mr Botha and others was that he was not recruitable, it became clear at the end of the day, that he was not recruitable as an informer?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: Now while the persons who were mentioned went to the Alan Taylor Residence, what was happening at the safe house?  You and Taylor were there and Nxiweni, where was he?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I was sitting with Nxiweni.

MR VISSER: You were sitting with Nxiweni, so he wasn't with Botha?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No.

MR VISSER: Did you guard him?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: And what did Taylor do?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Taylor was busy in the office, in the kitchen and he also informed me that he was going to start digging a grave.

MR VISSER: Did he tell you that privately or in the presence of Nxiweni?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No he informed me privately?

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon, I didn't hear that.  Could you just repeat, what did he tell you?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Taylor told me that he was going to start digging the grave.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR VISSER: We know that Botha gave evidence that informed Taylor about Pumeso and about the fact that the elimination was going to take place so your commander said that he was going to start digging the grave?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: And what did you do then?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I stayed with Nxiweni.

MR VISSER: Very well.  Wasn't it a very strange situation?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: It is strange.

MR VISSER: Did you ask any questions about that?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Why not?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I was a junior officer, I was completely junior to Mr Taylor and Mr Taylor was not a type of person that one would ask questions of.

MR VISSER: So he went to dig the grave and you remained in the house?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: What happened after that, did Botha and Wasserman and Du Preez return?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that's correct.

MR VISSER: And what happened to you then?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Taylor excused me and Mr Botha, he said that we could go.

MR VISSER: He said you could go?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that's correct.

MR VISSER: And then you left?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes we left.

MR VISSER: And after the time did you not report this incident to any policeman, you kept silent about the incident, you covered it up?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: You knew later on that Mr Nxiweni had been killed and buried?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: During the interrogation Mr van der Westhuizen, did you assault Mr Nxiweni?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Was it in the same manner as which the other witnesses have testified?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VISSER: Did you use any filtering apparatus with which to filter him?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No.

MR VISSER: Did you use any electro-shock mechanisms or any other such apparatus?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No.

MR VISSER: Was any other torture apparatus used or available at the safe house?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR NEL: Thank you Mr Chairman, Christo Nel.  I've got no questions for the witness.

MR NOLTE: Thank you Mr Chairman, Nolte.  No questions for the witness.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no questions for this witness.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr van der Westhuizen, during the interrogation of Mr Nxiweni, was he cuffed?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Was he cuffed to a chair or to a bed or to some other structure.

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Well which one is correct?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: He was cuffed.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Yes but what to?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: To a bed, I recall that he was cuffed to a bed at a certain stage.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: During the assault on him or was he removed from there and taken to another place where he was assaulted?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No he was assaulted there where he was cuffed to the bed.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: The whole time?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, as far as my involvement stretches.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: How did you assault him?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I slapped him a few times.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Well what do you mean by that?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I slapped him through the face.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And the degree of violence which you applied?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: He was not seriously assaulted.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Did you hit him with the fist?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I personally did not hit him with the fist.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Who hit him with the fist?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I cannot say who hit him with the fist, some of the other members.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: We know that Mr Botha assaulted him, did you see this?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I can't recall that I saw him assaulting Mr Nxiweni.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr Du Preez assaulted him, is that correct?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: You saw that?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: How did Mr du Preez assault him?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: With clenched fist and with the open hand.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And Mr Wasserman also assaulted him?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: You saw that?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And yourself and did Mr Taylor assault him?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Not that I know of.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Could we then assume that upon the day of his arrest and throughout the following day he was consistently interrogated and systematically assaulted by all the members involved, is that correct?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes he was interrogated and assaulted but not consistently.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And you say that as a result of these assaults on him throughout this long period of time he was not injured?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, not seriously injured.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: My final question.  In the Ndwandwe case, Taylor said he dug the grave and it was put to all the witnesses that that is not correct, that he indeed did not do it and if he says that it is as the result of his condition, his mental condition at the end, that he may have been confused.  Was Taylor the type of person that would have carried out such a task, digging the grave, or weren't there other men there who would have done it?

CASPER ADRIAAN VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, he was the type of person who would do that.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN SCHALKWYK

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I have no re-examination.  My learned friend was really referring to page 62 at Volume 2, Mr Chairman - page 61.  Page 61 in Volume 2.  I see you're frowning.  That was the evidence of Taylor, Mr Chairman.  I believe that's what my learned friend was referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: That was the shooting of Ndwandwe?

MR VISSER: Ndwandwe.

CHAIRPERSON: Not of this person?  No re-examination?

MR VISSER: No re-examination, Mr Chairman.