Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-19

MS PATEL: So, if people on the scene, members of your operation had said that they were caught off-guard or that they had acted impulsively on the scene, that would not be a fair reflection, because they would have, at that stage, still have been under instructions to be on the alert and on the lookout and that the risks that were posed initially may still have been present?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.  All those persons at the scene come from different branches, Guguletu Detective Branch, etcetera.  So, there was not a rigid rule or guideline that was laid down, so that these were all trained men.  If you withdrew, then they moved.  I met some of the previous evening, some of them I did not even know.  I only realised that afternoon who they were.  So, these are faces that you see and every person would have decided where he was going to go.  If I can remember correctly, a vehicle was burning and somebody said he was going to look at that.  That is my reason.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I interpose, Mr, Ms Patel?
	Mr Bellingan, when you received radio information about the possible presence of the insurgents in the area, had most of the 20 member group of your, of the police moved from their original positions, at that time?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, most of them were still in place, but those of us who were in the vehicles, were at no specific points any more.  I cannot say exactly where the others were.  We started moving, so the others must have started moving too.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

ADV MOTATA: Just a follow up on that.  Let us look at those who are in the bushes.  Would you say they had the same movements as you people in the cars?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I cannot speak for them.  I believe that they were still lying there, because I only heard later that some of them ran over the road and were shooting in the bushes, so it might have been that they were still lying there.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you.

MS PATEL: You have just accepted, Mr Bellingan, that at the time you saw Mr Maluleka on the scene, it was just before 07H30, after the bus had passed and if one accepts that the bus, as a matter of course, passes at 07H15, then within that 15 minute period, you had seen Mr Maluleka on the scene.  All right.  Mr Mbane says that he was given instructions to bring the people in just after seven, just after seven o' clock.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I cannot recall having said to him just after seven, but he would have been working according to instructions from Christopher Piet, so I cannot give any  clarity in this regard.

MS PATEL: Okay.  If, and he, in fact, says that they did come in later, at least, later than you and your men arrived on the scene at five o' clock.  Now, if the area had been surrounded from the time that you say it had been and, you will agree that there are only certain entry points into that specific area, could you then please explain how those members gained entry into that area?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: He could have dropped them at another point and they could have walked in, but originally he said that they were in the bus and they would drive in with them and what happened and what they decided during the interim I cannot say.

MS PATEL: He says clearly, Mr Mbane says clearly that when he drove in and he came from the Guguletu area on the NY1, if one refers to the map, that is from a southerly direction moving north, that he, in fact, witnessed that your men were ready, he saw a vehicle on the side street waiting and he knew that your people were now ready and they were let through.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, if someone had seen the bus, it would have been reported and steps would have been taken.  This is the first thing that I heard about this, that he came ... (end of tape 1B) in from that side.

MS PATEL: ... the area, Mr Bellingan, how is it that if most of your people were still in place, the van came through, in which they were travelling.  Do explain?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I cannot comment on how they walked in.  There are different directions that they could have come in, such as the normal workers who were walking to the station.  They did not have identity jackets, they could just have walked in like normal members of the public.  I cannot comment further.

MS PATEL: Would your members not then have, at least, mentioned that this was a busy area, that there were lots of people in the street or that there were some people walking in the street?  If one looks at the evidence, Mr Bellingan, the only people that are referred to at the scene are the few Black men who they saw were suspicious looking.  No one else is mentioned, because, also, if one takes that further, there is no question ever, besides the bus that arrived at the scene, in which, which Mr Benting was driving, one takes that further, there is no mention made that there were civilians in the scene and that your men needed to be cautious in protecting the people who were there.  Surely, that would have been raised.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, this would have been told at the session.  It is as good as making an operation in Adderley Street.  It would have been said the previous evening or that morning.  So, we would have taken preventative action.  From 07H15 to 07H30 everybody was on their way to work and if you go and look one morning, then you will see how busy it is there.  So, there was, it was a hive of activity at that stage.

MS PATEL: Do you agree, though, Mr Bellingan, that if there was that risk, it would have been discussed or it would have been mentioned by some party who was present at the scene that, look, there are civilians walking around here, we need to be extra cautious or please, there are women walking around on the corner of NY1 and NY3, please be careful.  Surely this kind of information would have been relayed to the rest of the parties on the scene by way of radio, which everyone or almost everyone was in possession of?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I believe that everybody knew about this before the time.  It is part of normal training to know that if there is a shooting, that the civilians have to be taken care of.  This is normal practice.  Everyone would have done this or would have ensured their safety and that is why I have also said, earlier, that the first idea that I had is that there were civilians, anything can happen, if shooting was to take place and we were hyper-careful.

MS PATEL: Do you know at which stage the van arrived on the scene, in which Mr Mbane and company ... (intervention).

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I cannot say whether, when it happened.  I can remember that after I had been shot and my weapon was eliminated, the bus was there already.  So, this happened in a matter of seconds, I cannot say exactly.

MS PATEL: Okay.  Mr Mbane says that after he dropped the members, as he had agreed with you, at the points arranged with you, that he had gone over the bridge, towards Montana area, and had turned around, because he still had, besides himself, he had the driver and he had Chris Piet in the car with him, in the van, sorry, and that he came back and once he came back over the bridge, that is when he heard what he thought was an explosion and shooting.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Jimmy never told me that he was going to drop off the people.  The idea was that they remained in the Kombi, that they could be drawn into that corner, so I have no knowledge that he ever told me anything like this.

MS PATEL: So, Mr Bellingan, would you repeat that?  Did you say that the arrangement was that they would try to be cornered somewhere?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, as I said, we did not agree that they would be dropped off somewhere.  I told Jimmy to keep everybody in the bus, keep control of the weapons so that we can keep them at a central point or keep, where all the weapons are.

MS PATEL: And which corner would this be, if one looks at the map?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: NY1 and 111.