Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

MR PRIOR: When you left the tavern - got into the vehicle and drove away, was there anymore shooting?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: The last shots transpired between the robots, on my side and comrade Luyanda's side - that is when the last shots were fired, it was by the robots.

MR PRIOR: Did you see at what Gqomfa was - your comrade Gqomfa, was firing?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I was sitting in the front seat, he was sitting behind me.  I don't know whether he was shooting towards the side or the back but I do remember that this transpired by the robots.

MR PRIOR: So you can't say whether anyone was shooting at you at that stage?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: There were shots that I heard, from a small gun I think.  I think the comrade was responding to those shots.  According to his evidence here yesterday, he said that it was somebody from behind that was shooting.

MR PRIOR: All right.  Do you know Bulelani Xuma - on of the implicated persons?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, I know Bulelani.

MR PRIOR: Did you have any dealings with him whilst you were in Cape Town?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No.

MR PRIOR: Did you see him whilst you were in Cape Town, that is before the Heidelberg attack?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No, I did not see him.

MR PRIOR: Mr Theo Mabusela, do you know him?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I know Theo, he was a Regional Executive Chairman from the Eastern Cape.

MR PRIOR: Did you see him in Cape Town whilst you were in Cape Town before the Heidelberg attack?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, I saw him.

MR PRIOR: Had he arranged any accommodation for you?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: The person who arranged our accommodation was the regional organiser Michael Siolo, he's the one who organised our accommodation  Comrade Mabusela brought the arms to us as a unit.

MR PRIOR: I see, you're aware of that - you know that.  So, can you say whether Mr Mabusela was aware that you were going to use those weapons in Cape Town at that time?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Mabusela was the Chairman in the Regional Executive of the Eastern Cape.  When people come from Cape Town obviously he knows what they're going to do there, he did not know the people I'd come with - I am from Western Cape.  I don't know whether I've answered you sufficiently.

MR PRIOR: Yes.  I just want to get a clearer picture in my mind that he supplied you with the weapons and ammunition that you used in the Heidelberg attack?  I'm asking you were you aware - did he know the nature of the attack, or did you not discuss that with him when he handed you the weapons?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Mabusela and other comrades were not soldiers, they were merely members of the PAC.  What we were going to do there, we were not going to discuss with them - they're not soldiers.  It was not important to discuss those details with them.

MR PRIOR: And after the attack, who provided you the accommodation - that is before you left for Umtata presumably or Transkei?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: The next day comrade Luyanda and myself went to comrade Dala's place to give him arms, he gave us money to go.  As I said I'm from the Western Cape, we divided ourselves into two, I left with the said comrade to go to Guguletu - I'm personally from Guguletu.

MR PRIOR: So were you staying at your own home?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No, I was not staying at home.

MR PRIOR: Can you tell us where in Guguletu you were staying at the time?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I was staying at Kick, there was a member of the PAC who stayed there - there are shacks there.

MR PRIOR: Tell me, did you have an operative name other than your name Vuyisile Madasi?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, Sir.

MR PRIOR: What was that?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Within the unit I was referred to as Khayaletu.

ADV SANDI: Was that the only name?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No.

ADV SANDI: What were the other names?

INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the answer please.

ADV SANDI: Can you repeat what you've just said.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Mtsebisi Leonard Nazo of which I made a travel document in the Transkei according to that name.

MR PRIOR: Were you travelling under that name when you were arrested?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, Sir.

MR PRIOR: And your colleague Mr Zola Mabala, do you know his operative name?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: He used his own name Zola as I know him now.

MR PRIOR: And comrade Gqomfa, how did you refer to him before you went into battle?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: We referred to him as Bruce.

MR PRIOR: Bruce?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, Sir.

MR PRIOR: All right I just want to wrap up the implicated persons.  Xolani Jantjie or Dantjie, is he the person that's in hospital?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I did not even know he was Xolani Jantjie, I did know however that he's Capetonian, I did not know that he was Xolani Jantjie.  I was not even aware that he was in hospital until here, the last time I had seen him was in those old days.

MR PRIOR: Did you know Andile Shiceka - I'll spell it S-h-i-c-e-k-a?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I know him.

MR PRIOR: Is he also known as Meyer - M-e-y-e-r?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Correct.

MR PRIOR: Was he not present in the Heidelberg attack?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: No, Sir.

MR PRIOR: Are you not sure?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I'm certain, he wasn't there.

MR PRIOR: Did you see him in the run up to the attack or shortly after the attack?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: He was not even in Cape Town, I did not see him before or after the attack - he was not to be part of this mission.

MR PRIOR: Well, where was he at the time of the Heidelberg attack?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I would not know, the last time I had seen him was in the Transkei - I don't know where he was at the time of the attack.

MR PRIOR: Did you know Sandile Gerald Chikelana, he's the witness or the person referred to at item 5 of the index of the bundle and his statement 73 to 78 of the paginated papers?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I don't know him Sir.

MR PRIOR: Did you know anyone by the name of Mandla or Power?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: There was a comrade who was a member of the High Command called Mandla but I don't know the name Sandile Chikelana.

MR PRIOR: Refer to paragraph 6 of page 73 - did you know him personally or did you know of him as being in the upper echelons of the command?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I knew him as a member of the High Command in APLA.

MR PRIOR: Do you know whether any report was made to him regarding the Heidelberg attack in particular?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I don't know Sir, because I got arrested.

MR PRIOR: Now in you application for amnesty, the form that you completed in - it looks like March of '97, the 3rd of March and I refer Mr Chairman, to page 27 of the bundle, that is the first bundle.  At page 27 the sub-paragraph 11(b) you were - when you - the question read
"If so, state particulars of such order or approval"
Because you had said in the previous answer:
"You had done this on behalf of the APLA High Command"
Then the next question was:
"If so, state particulars of such order or approval and the date thereof and if known, the name and address of the person or persons who gave such order or approval"
And your answer was:
"Kill the enemy, liberate AZANIA, let Klapa Plathele" ... [intervention]

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: These forms arrived with the comrade, I filled them with him.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, which comrade was that?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Leklapa.

MR PRIOR: Did Mr Leklapa Plathele bring you these forms whilst you were in prison?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Correct, with a member of the Executive Committee, comrade Kusheka.

MR PRIOR: So whilst you were in their presence you completed this form, is that so?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: What do you mean?