Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-13

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: There is no other roads to the township that doesn't require us to cross underneath the bridge.

MR DA SILVA: Was the reason to cross underneath the bridge not so that you would not be detected, this group would not be detected by other people?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I think, sir, you may not know the bridge we are talking about.   There is a rail overhead the bridge, and then there is a road underneath the bridge.

MR DA SILVA: I understood your evidence to be that when the group moved away from Kwamadala Hostel towards Boipatong, that you saw no members of the police and no members of the Defence Force, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.

MR DA SILVA: Now I also understood your evidence to be that while you were in Boipatong, you were there for approximately a half an hour to an hour, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

MR DA SILVA: While you were in Boipatong, you saw no members of the police and of the South African Defence Force, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR DA SILVA: My information is that while, or after the attack, that there were numerous rocks and tree stumps in the streets, is that your recollection of that evening?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

MR DA SILVA: Your statements also - or your affidavits state in two places that the police were precluded from entering Boipatong because they were barred by rocks.   Do you agree with that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes sir.

MR DA SILVA: Would you agree with me that to travel by vehicle that evening in Boipatong would have been very difficult, because of the tree stumps and because of the rocks in the roads?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I agree.

MR DA SILVA: I understood your evidence to be that the first time you saw some form of authority was when you were moving back to the hostel, is that correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct.

MR DA SILVA: What did you see?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I saw police vehicles, Casspirs.

MR DA SILVA: Now, it's interesting that you say that you saw Casspirs.   Did you see any other vehicles, apart from Casspirs?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: The others called V12's.

MR DA SILVA: Could you repeat that, others?

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct) vehicles called V12, is it?

MR DA SILVA: Do you know if a V12 is a Nyala vehicle?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I do not know.

MR DA SILVA: Right.   When you saw the policemen that you're referring to, how far away were you from them?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: It was quite a distance away from us, from the garage where the police were parked and the bridge where we were.

MR DA SILVA: Can you estimate the distance at all?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: From that bridge, it will be a distance maybe from the stage towards the end of the stage, of the hall.

MR DA SILVA: When you started being cross-examined, somebody asked you to estimate, Mr Berger asked you to estimate a distance and you gave the same estimation, that it was about 40 to 50 metres.

CHAIRPERSON: I think now he's referring outside of the hall.   Is it from where you are seated... (intervention).

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: From the bridge, from... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: ...up to the doors right at the back?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Can you give an estimation more or less how far this distance is?

CHAIRPERSON: Well he says it's from where he is up to the doors at the end of the hall, (indistinct).

MR DA SILVA: That's about 50 metres, Mr Chairman, more or less.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: How long did you observe these people?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: We were walking past, I could see them as they were standing there having their Casspirs parked there, and I did not estimate how long it took for us to see them.

MR DA SILVA: Can you give me an estimation, Mr Mthembu, how long did you keep these people under observation, a couple of minutes or longer, or can't you say?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Would you please repeat your question, I don't understand what you're trying to say?

MR DA SILVA: You saw a group of vehicles which you've referred to as the police.   I'd like you to give an estimation of how long you kept these people under observation.   Are you able to do so?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I am not in a position to do that, because you are talking to me, I am the one who saw them, I was walking past, going back to my place, I therefore did not estimate what time it took for us to observe these people as we were walking past, we just walked past.

MR DA SILVA: That's exactly why I'm asking you the question, because I wasn't there, and you were there, that's why I'm asking you to tell the Committee how long you kept these people under observation?

CHAIRPERSON: He says he can't tell us, he's unable to tell us, he says.

MR DA SILVA: As the Chairman pleases.   Can you describe what these people were wearing that you saw?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: It was at night, sir, I was not in the position to see what they were wearing, what colours of clothes they were wearing, it was at night.   I just saw cars as well.

MR DA SILVA: Look at the question that was put to you after your amnesty application was filed.   Will you please turn to page 20, paragraph 27 please.   Do you see the question?   It says
"You mentioned that you saw a police armoured vehicle outside Boipatong on the eve of the attack.  Is it possible that this vehicle you saw could have belonged to the SADF?"
In other words to the South African Defence Force.   If you turn to page 33, you see the answer to paragraph 27:-
"On the night of the attack I saw a Casspir of the Stability Force Police, such as a V12.   I am very sure it was a South African Police Casspir."
So in other words what you're saying is, the vehicle you saw belonged to the police and not to the Defence Force, do you agree with that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would not know, because you have just enumerated a number of things.   You also indicated to what other names used for the V12, I just know that these vehicles were for the police and the other one for the army.

MR DA SILVA: Yes, yes, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, your attention is being drawn to the question that was asked of you, and the answer that you gave to that question.   The question was, is it possible that this vehicle that you saw there belonged to the South African Defence Force, that is the question that you were asked.   Do you understand that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I do understand.

CHAIRPERSON: And then your answer to that question was
"On the night of the attack, I saw a Casspir of the Stability Force Police, such as a V12.   I am sure it was a South African Police Casspir."

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I think so, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't mention seeing, you don't say that that motor vehicle could have belonged to the South African Defence Force.

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Mthembu, you made several affidavits in your application for amnesty, and the first affidavit I understand deals with the incidents that took place at Sebokeng.   Now if you look at your subsequent affidavits, look at the first one, it runs from pages 36 to 42... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Da Silva, let me ask you this, what is the South African Defence Force position, were they present or were they not present?

MR DA SILVA: The position is that they were present after the attack, not during or before the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Put that to the witness and let's see how he responds to it.   Perhaps we will deal with the extent to which your client is implicated much quicker.