Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-20

MR WILLS: Now if she didn't give the information as regards exactly where those four comrades were, surely in your past experience, and I think it's quite clear that the possibility exists that she would have been killed that night, she didn't cooperate with the interrogation, is that right?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is right.

MR VISSER: What is the value Chairperson, of putting argument to a witness and getting him to agree ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, this is essentially argument, we're not going to be putting too much weight on what Mr Mbane is going to say to you, it is essentially argument.

MR WILLS: As you please, Mr Chairperson.
	Now you had direct dealings with Mr Coetzer, not so?  During the time of this operation, he was there for quite a considerable amount of the time.  In fact, he replaced Mr Ras when I believe Mr Ras I injured, is that right?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is correct, but I was reporting to Radebe and Radebe would report to Coetzer and Coetzer would report to Botha.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but the question was, did you have direct dealings with Coetzer yourself, without a third person between you?  When you were in Durban at that stage.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, sometimes we would work directly with him.

MR WILLS: Now Coetzer says in his affidavit, and I'm referring to paragraph of his statement which I think is at page ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is this volume 2?

MR WILLS: ... volume 2 again, page 102, and I want to know if he ever discussed this with you personally.  He said that he was informed by one of the members of the Security Branch that the leader of the ANC cell which had been infiltrated by Jimmy Mbane, was a woman.  Now what ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just for the record, that's paragraph 7 on page 102.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you.
	Now what I want to ask you is the thing that he says next and I want to know, did he discuss this with you, did he discuss this that the plan was to interrogate her?  Did you discuss this plan to interrogate Kubheka, with Coetzer at all?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, I did not discuss it with him.

MR WILLS: He then explains that ... sorry, I didn't get that translation.

CHAIRPERSON: That the plan was for him to question her or to interrogate her.

MR LAX: His answer was that he didn't discuss that with Coetzer.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh yes.  Sorry, I thought you meant the translation of the rest of this paragraph.

MR WILLS: Now he goes on to say that in order to do this
"Jimmy Mbane tried to lure her on the pretext to take her to a place, on a pretext to a place where we would arrest her."
Did Coetzer discuss this with you, the fact that he wanted you to go and lure this person to this place, lure Kubheka to this place where she could be arrested?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, I cannot remember discussing such a thing with him.

MR WILLS: But to you mind even if it wasn't discussed directly with you, this reflects an accurate position as to what the plan was, is that correct?  i.e. That you'd lure her to a place so that she would be arrested.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, this happened.

MR WILLS: Just turning to the actual interrogation itself or the torture itself, I just want to get information on the timing of this.  You arrived obviously some time later than the persons who transported Ms Kubheka to Winkelspruit, now from the time that you arrived, you've indicated that you heard her screaming, now how long would you estimate that this torture went on?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I think it was an hour to two hours.

MR WILLS: And in your view, did you gain the impression that she was being put considerable pain?  From what you heard from the veranda.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, because she was screaming that meant that she was in pain.

MR WILLS: If you'd just bear with me, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, I wonder if I could ask for an indulgence at this stage.  I know it's rather macabre, but I require that, or I request that the clothing be brought back into the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly, if that's what you want Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it available, Ms Thabethe, the clothing?  Do you need anything more than the dress, Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: No, the dress will be fine, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes?

MR WILLS: Now do you remember, does this dress in any way remind you of what you saw Ms Kubheka wearing on that day?  Or can't you remember?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: What I can see is that this is a small size for her.  I can't remember whether this is the dress of not, but what I can say is that this is a small size.

MR WILLS: Thank you.  Mr Chairperson, possibly I can use this opportunity to compare the size of the dress with dresses that we have obtained from the family at this stage.  Thank you.  Could I ask that the dresses of the family, that the family have supplied as belonging to Ms Kubheka, be placed next to this dress.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you can lead evidence later where the dresses actually come from.

MR WILLS: Yes, I will be leading that evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: We won't accept this as evidence, but if it's a convenient stage we can do so.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just one point Mr Wills.
	Mr Mbane, when you saw Ms Kubheka that day, when you picked her up at the station, the dress she seemed to be wearing, did it seem to be sitting well on her?  Did it look normal?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: She wasn't wearing a dress that was obviously too tight or one that was too big for her as far as you're concerned, it just looked normal?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, it was normal.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, just for the record, I will be leading evidence of the son of the deceased that the two dresses that are about to be shown to the Committee, are in fact the dresses of the deceased person.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: I think Mr Chairperson, for ...

CHAIRPERSON: Please correct me if I'm wrong.  We now have two additional dresses that have been laid on the floor alongside Exhibit 1.  The one dress is, one could perhaps describe it as a black dress, it's got a pattern on it, but it's essentially a black dress, and the other one is a blue dress.  If one takes a look from the bottom of the hem line to the shoulder as they are lying here, they're all pretty much of the same length, there's no real discernible difference.  As they are lying here they seem to be the same length.  With regard to waist size, my opinion is the blue one seems to have a slightly thicker waist than the Exhibit 1 and then - sorry, they're actually being put next to each other, the waistline.  Ms Miller, what is the, are they similar?  Are they the same?  They look the same.  The black one and Exhibit 1, the waistline is essentially the same, if there's a difference it's a question of millimetres perhaps.  The blue one looks a little bit wider perhaps.  Yes, perhaps a little bit wider because it seems to be dropping a little bit down, but if it is wider it's a centimetre or so in it.  I think at this stage, although they haven't been handed in as evidence yet, just for convenience we can call the black one Exhibit 3, seeing that there is going to be evidence about it.

MR WILLS: Exhibit 5.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry 5.  Of course we had the slip and the underwear, yes.  Exhibit 5 is the black dress and Exhibit 6 will be the blue dress.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Mbane, I want you to look at Exhibit 5 and 6 and tell me whether or not in your view, those dresses would fit the deceased in this matter, according to your recollection.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I can say so, but I am not sure, but I think they would have fitted her as I'm looking at them.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I've no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

MR WILLS: Unless anybody else wants it, I'm happy that the exhibits be returned.