Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, it was the one.

MR VALLY: Was he at this stage a fugitive, in that he didn't go to court when he was supposed to while he was on bail?

JOHN MORGAN: He did not go to court, he just sat on the steps, and disappeared subsequently.

MR VALLY: How long was he staying at your house before you took him to the ANC offices?

JOHN MORGAN: Almost a year - as a child who is my friend as well.

MR VALLY: Why did you take him to Mrs Madikezela-Mandela at the offices in Sauer Street if he was your friend?

JOHN MORGAN: Because we had gone to request some money, since we had no money, for Mrs Mandela to help, and she gave me little bit and said to Katiza: "You are not going anywhere", and that was the last time I've seen Katiza that day - I never saw him again.

MR VALLY: You did say in your statement that when you left Katiza there you were afraid he might be killed?  Were you aware of this possible danger before?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes.

MR VALLY: Why did you still take him there if you were afraid he was going to be killed?

JOHN MORGAN: You mean him?

MR VALLY: ... [inaudible]

JOHN MORGAN: What happened to him?  Repeat yourself please?

MR VALLY: My question is this: "If you were afraid that he would be killed when you took him to Mrs Madikezela-Mandela at the ANC offices in Sauer Street, why did you do so?

JOHN MORGAN: That was what I was thinking, that we are going to enlist some help from Mrs Mandela, and that is all.

MR VALLY: I have one more question.  In terms of the newspaper article I've read out to you - I'm sorry, I have two more questions.  The first one is, in terms of the newspaper article I've read out to you, you made these statements in the newspaper after there was - apparently Mrs Mandela - if I can just quote to you
"I approached Mrs Mandela for funds two weeks ago but she refused and directed me to the ANC offices to see Dali Mpofu. He said my case was not important and refused to give me money."
Now this was money for your appeal, so she refused to finance your appeal; thereafter you made the statements to the newspaper.  If I put it to you that you were trying to take revenge on Mrs Madikezela-Mandela because she refused to pay for your appeal, what would your response be?

JOHN MORGAN: Okay. She refused to help us, giving us money, but we eventually got lawyers and I had my own lawyer attending, Mr Greg Nolte (?), who came from Simon Street.  And she is not the one who referred me to him, I am the one who approached him.

MR VALLY: ... [inaudible] because she refused to pay for your lawyer's fees, that you were angry and upset with her, and therefore you made these allegations.

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, we realised that she wanted to protect her own life and defend her own life, but, as for us, we will be arrested. Then we decided to tell the truth as it was.

MR VALLY: My final question is, there was an interview that Mrs Madikezela-Mandela had with Mr Hennie Serfontein in Johannesburg on the 21st of February 1989, and I'll quote you what she said about Stompie Seipei where you are referred to and I'd like your comment please, and I start
"I am convinced that Stompie has not been killed, I do not believe that that is supposed to be his body.  My driver, the old man John Morgan, who was detained and shown the so-called body of that boy, he came back and told us he could not believe what he was shown by the Security Branch - the body of Stompie which was not Stompie at all.
 He explained that the body he was shown was of a light-complexioned little boy who was much younger than Stompie, and that that poor mother is being forced into admitting that is the body of her son.  I don't believe one bit that that child is no longer with us."
Did this happen?  Did you make this statement?

JOHN MORGAN: Come again, please.

MR VALLY: Do you want me to read this quote again?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes.

MR VALLY: Okay, this is what Mrs Mandela said to a journalist in February 1989, and I'm quoting what she said now
"I am convinced that Stompie has not been killed. I do not believe that that is supposed to be his body.  My driver, the old man John Morgan, who was detained and shown the so-called body of that boy, he came back and told us he could not believe what he was shown by the Security Branch - the body of Stompie which was not Stompie at all.
 He explained that the body he was shown was of a light-complexioned little boy who was much younger than Stompie, and that that poor mother is being forced into admitting that is the body of her son.  I don't believe one bit that that child is no longer with us."

JOHN MORGAN: That is not true. That boy was him, that boy was not light in complexion, he was the same complexion as mine, he was short, this short - Stompie's ... [indistinct] 14 years old - coffee colour, the same complexion as mine.

MR VALLY: So you did see Stompie's body at the morgue, and you did identify him?

JOHN MORGAN: I saw Stompie's body.

MR VALLY: Do you know if Mrs Madikezela-Mandela knew the names of the members of her football club - the full names, the proper names?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, it's her club. She's supposed to know.

MR VALLY: Thank you, Mr Chair, that's all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Thank you, Chairperson.  Chair, with your indulgence, when we requested statements, we were given Mr Morgan's statement which was two pages. We have now been given a statement which appears to be six pages.  I have not had an opportunity to look at that statement. I do not know if it would meet with your convenience to afford us a short adjournment to have a look at these documents.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell me ... [intervention]  Order, please.  Hanif?

MR VALLY: I can't answer that question right now. My colleague is not here - about the 2-page and 6-page document.  I've got no problem with the adjournment - the choice is yours, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: How much time do you want?

MR SEMENYA: I'd request an adjournment for 15 minutes to have a look at these pages.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think we should let you have that. It'll give us the short break that we were not going to have.  Some people will be pleased that you did that.  Five o'clock.  Thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, we indebted for the indulgence granted to us to peruse  the statements.   Chairperson, my instructions, however, to register a complaint that the nature of the allegations which are being held against Mrs Madikizela-Mandela are hurtful in the extreme.  That they are uttered almost in a cavalier manner and in a jocular sense is to be regretted.  That the processes would indicate the limitation of testing the correctness of some of his versions is also limiting in our ability to demonstrate the truthfulness of the allegations which are made or otherwise, but most importantly when we look at the documents that have been given to us now, they are not the same.  By way of illustration, you would find the statement of the witness now which reads and has a vehemence which are not in another section of the statement.  We do not know whether in the light of the seriousness of these allegations, whether we're not even entitled to be given the actual statements of these witnesses.  The evidence as we hear it makes serious allegations about matters for which Jerry Richardson has applied for amnesty. Surely we would have been entitled to obtain documents of this amnesty to understand how Jerry Richardson owns up to that particular event. We do not have the statement and it is expected of us to meet and challenge the statements in the manner that is, with respect, very compromising.  Beyond that point I will proceed notwithstanding.