Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: apeTown, but to the extent that he alleges that that is a significant factor inthat it mitigates against the suggestion that there is any likelihood that thisattack being carried out without him having been fully appraised as to how itwould be done, where the attack was to take place, what the target was and howit was intended he would escape.

<UNKNOWN>: re you suggesting theydrove him around

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town, showing him the roads in

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town? Which routeshe could take, because I find that very hard to believe?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I am suggesting ...

JUDGE WILSON: He was a common soldier, he was notan officer of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: , he was brought in for one purpose and that was to drivethe vehicle, so he says. There were three other people in the vehicle with him,all from

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town, surely they are the ones who would have known the routewhere to go?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I won't take that any further.

CHAIRPERSON: While you are looking at something else, can we take this further. You askedhim what preparations they did in regard to the vehicle and then he mentionedonly the petrol, but I am interested in other aspects as well. What furtherpreparations did you make with regard to the vehicle, for example did you removethe original registration numbers of the vehicle, put false ones on or did youdrive the vehicle without the registration number?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: We drove,we used the car as it was, we only just put in the petrol.

<UNKNOWN>: t what time did you steal this car?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: It was in the afternoon,round about six o'clock, I am not exactly sure about the time. It was past sixor before six o'clock.

<UNKNOWN>: ecause you had to meet your colleaguesat six o'clock. So you had to get the car before six o'clock if possible?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes. That is why I am saying I am not sure about the time.

<UNKNOWN>: utwhat I am sure of, after six o'clock we were already in Langa from where wehad taken the car.

<UNKNOWN>: nd before taking the car, you were armedalready?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, we were already armed.

<UNKNOWN>: nd in fact you shot at the owner of the car?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, sir.

ADVDE JAGER: Did you hit him?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I am not sure whether I didhit him or not.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you intend to hit him?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No, no.

<UNKNOWN>: ut if it was only a shot fired, I am sure you wouldhave been able to tell us no, I didn't intend to hit him and I didn't hit himbecause I didn't shoot at him, I only wanted to frighten him.

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I just wanted to frighten him so that he can give us the car keys and we takethe car.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: You say that the first time that you realisedyou were attacking the church, was when you had already circled the church anumber of times. What did you think when you realised that it was a church thatyou were going to attack?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: There was nothing I could do, Iwas just following orders from my

<UNKNOWN>: ommander. I had to obey orders.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Why do you have to obey orders, why is there a reason why you cannot say I donot want to participate in this attack?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I would have beenputting myself into trouble, we were not trained that way.

<UNKNOWN>: ndin fact you wanted to obey orders, that is the position, isn't it? You wantedto be part of the process?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, sir.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: When was the first time you met Mr Nonxuba?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I met him inTranskei.

<UNKNOWN>: nd how did you meet him at that time, how didthat meeting come about?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: He was my trainer and my

<UNKNOWN>: ommander.It is him who recruited me to join the

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: .

ADV BEMBRIDGE: When did hecome to stay in

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town, do you know?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: He stayed here avery long time, I think he grew up here in

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Wereyou aware of the type of weapons that were going to be used in the attack?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No, I had no idea.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: You say though that youwere armed before the attack took place?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Not for the attack,but I had a pistol for myself.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Where did you get it from?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I got it from Khaya Makoma.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Okay, do youknow where he got it from?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I am sorry, I don't know.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Where were you when he gave it to you?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I wasin Macassar. I was in a house in Macassar.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Do you knowwhose house that is?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No, I don't know, but when I came therethey were the only people who were there and I was the one who was staying there.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Did you ever meet the person called Vusi?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Have you ever heard of him?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Makoma tell you why he gave you the pistol, what did he give it for?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I think it is because as I was coming in there, I was introducedby Sichomiso Nonxuba to him and he introduced myself to Sichomiso and he toldthem that I was also a member of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: . So, I think for my own protection I gotthat pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: Protection against what?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Fromour enemies because

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: was well-known that it was fighting, the

<UNKNOWN>: oers werefighting the P

<UNKNOWN>: .

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't tell you that you need it to haveit in the light of the mission that was to be carried out?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No, I was just given it for my own security reasons.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

JUDGEWILSON: Who is Mazala or Powa?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Mazala is the

<UNKNOWN>: hief ofLogistics in the Eastern

<UNKNOWN>: ape Region.

<UNKNOWN>: nd what did he haveto do with this mission?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: It is very difficult to understandthe opinions of the High

<UNKNOWN>: ommand and their duties because

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: has its own topsecrets.

<UNKNOWN>: arry on.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Did you ask Makoma anythingabout the attack?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Why not?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I knew from Transkei that there was going to be an operation,otherwise I didn't know it in detail. I knew that there was going to be an operationwhether of which kind, but I had no guts to ask. That is what I knew it frommy heart.

<UNKNOWN>: n operation for P

<UNKNOWN>: .

ADV BEMBRIDGE: What was your motive fortaking part in the attack?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I also wanted to be the part ofthose who were going to free the

<UNKNOWN>: zania.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: How did you thinkthis attack would contribute towards freeing

<UNKNOWN>: zania?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Thegovernment would have noticed that the

<UNKNOWN>: frican want their land back and alongthe line, they would have given us freedom as we can see at the present moment,we do have democracy.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Is that democracy not rather as aresult of the negotiations that took place between all the political parties?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I won't know that. Maybe negotiations took part, but theonly thing I know, it was a pressure from the

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: movements.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: How did you think this attack would make the White people give your land back?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Like now, we are free. We can come forward and tell the truth,we are not radicals any more, we are the peace loving people.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: How did the attack contribute to that though?

<UNKNOWN>: ecause democracy.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE How did the attack lead to democracy?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: It wasa pressure to the government by the

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: . The government noticed that theirpeople are dying, so they must do something.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: When you saythat the government noticed that their people are dying, what people are youreferring to?