Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-20

MR PANDAY: So is it correct that Lucky took the decision to have this person killed?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: May I just, for my own clarity, summarise this very briefly, Mr Dlamini?  Am I correct in understanding that the first decision was simply to punish him, that two of you hit him with that cane, the fishing rod cane, each gave him 16 lashes and you ordered him then to leave.  He was released.  As he was walking away, Lucky said something to the effect that "What happens if he comes with the Inkatha people for some revenge attack?" and suggested that it would be better that he be killed.  That you then went, apprehended the person and brought him back.  Is this summary correct?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: So when he was first questioned, there was no decision to kill him then but simply to punish him.

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that was the agreement, that he should be punished and be released after the punishment.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, after the decision was taken to kill the victim, did you all take the victim anywhere else to have him killed or was he killed where you all were originally?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, we took him to another place where he was going to be killed.

MR PANDAY: Do you know what is the name of the place you all took him to?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: It was not a distance, it was just a place nearby where there were gum trees, that is where we killed him.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, is it correct that that area is referred to as Ndwedwe area?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I can say Ndwedwe is a farm area where Lucky Ntshetha used to stay.  Ndwedwe is quite at a distance from that particular place.

MR PANDAY: So the victim was going to be killed  not too
from where 16 people resided, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't he given evidence to that?  That he was taken to a nearby gum tree plantation?

MR PANDAY: As Madam Chair pleases.  Mr Dlamini, when the victim was taken to this gum tree plantation, who was it that either shot or stabbed the victim?  Was it all of you, or was it one specific person?

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you stop asking leading questions?  Just ask him how the deceased was killed.  There is no evidence before us from the applicant that the deceased was killed through any kind of stabbing.

MR PANDAY: Yes, Madam Chair.  Mr Dlamini, how was the victim killed?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I pointed a firearm at him as I was trying to shoot him, but the firearm just locked and in that situation you were forced to get another weapon.  That is when Lucky Ntshetha used a spear.  That's how he killed him.

MR PANDAY: So it is correct for us to assume that you attempted to kill the victim first by shooting him but the firearm unfortunately did not fire.

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Mr Dlamini, where was the deceased at the time?  Was he being held by anybody?  Was he free-standing?  Was he running away?  Where was the deceased when he was killed?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He was tied to a tree.

MR MALAN: Now, do I understand you correctly that when you took him to the plantation, this was after he had been released and taken in again, you have now decided to kill him?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Then you took him to the gum trees and you tied him to a tree?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Did you tie him to the tree with his back against the tree, or with his stomach towards the tree?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He was tied to a tree with his back on the stem of the tree and the chest was slightly bent.

MR MALAN: Why did you tie him?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: We did not want him to try to escape.

MR MALAN: But you were going to shoot him, why didn't you simply shoot him?  Why did you tie him up first?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: It is because it was realised that it was very difficult to shoot him, therefore we had to use a spear.

MR MALAN: No, Mr Dlamini.  Let's - please keep to the truth and if you don't tell us the truth and if eventually we don't believe you, we can't grant you amnesty, so we want the whole truth.  When you tried to shoot him, was he already tied to the tree?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, he was already tied to the tree.

MR MALAN: Right.  Now my question is, why did you have to tie him to a tree in order to shoot him?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That was a place that was more like a forest, therefore we couldn't trust him because the forest was quite big and we decided to tie him to a tree so that he couldn't escape, so that we can kill him at the time.

MR MALAN: Now, when you punished him, was he tied or was he being held?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He was not tied.  We made him to lie down.

MR MALAN: Now what did you tie him with when you eventually tied him to the tree after recapturing him?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Some wires were used.

MR MALAN: Where did you get the wires?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: They were available in the area.

MR MALAN: No, where did you get the wires, Mr Dlamini?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: In the place where was killed, there was an old house.  We got those wires from that old house.

MR MALAN: So who went to fetch the wires?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: We sent a child to fetch them.

MR MALAN: Now how did you know that the child would get the wires in the old house?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: We were sure, we were certain that he was going to get the wires there because we had seen them before in this old house.

MR MALAN: And who was this child that you had sent?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: It was Fano.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed, Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: You mentioned that after you tried shooting the victim, Lucky brought a spear to stab the victim, is that correct?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PANDAY: Where did Lucky get the spear from?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: That was his weapon that he was using, the one that he used to protect himself with.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, after Lucky had stabbed the victim, what was done thereafter to the victim?

CHAIRPERSON: How many times did Lucky stab the victim?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I remember that he stabbed him about three times.

CHAIRPERSON: On which part of his body?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: On his chest.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Did anyone else assault or stab the victim?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: I cannot remember that.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Dlamini, after Lucky had stabbed the victim three times, what did all of you do with the victim thereafter?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: He died and he fell down and we realised that he was no longer breathing and some of us left the scene.

MR PANDAY: Can you recall which of you had left the scene?

MR MALAN: Just before you proceed with that, you say he died and fell down, was he not tied to the tree with wire?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: We had untied him at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Now at what stage did you untie him?  Did you untie him before he was stabbed or immediately after he was stabbed?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: After he was stabbed, after we had realised that he was dead and we untied him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  After Lucky had stabbed him three times and after you thought he was now dead, it's then that you untied him and he fell down?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Mr Dlamini, getting back to our question, you mentioned that  "some of us left after stabbing the victim".  Can you recall who were the parties that left the area?

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: We went up because on our way back the children were in front.

ADV DE JAGER: Please listen.  Your counsel asked you:  "Who were the persons leaving the scene after he fell to the ground?"  Did you stay there?  Did Lucky stay there?  Tell us the names of the people who left the scene.

MOSES MTU DLAMINI: Two children left before us.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlamini, give us the names of the children.