Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Arendse, I had an opportunity after we adjourned yesterday to read your client's statement which was handed in and with regard to various points which I want to ask him about but in particular he refers in paragraph 9, to four operations he was involved in and which he has applied for amnesty for.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

JUDGE WILSON: I asked the office here to obtain these applications for me - I did so only this morning and I have been given a file which contains as far as I can see, only one application that is in respect of an incident at the Zastron Road near the Sterkspruit bridge, I don't know if you are aware of that application.  And there's also a letter written by the Executive Secretary of the Amnesty Committee, saying that he has made application for an incident in Lady Grey, an incident in Zastron and an incident in Umtata and various incidents in and around Cape Town.
	The first three that I referred to were all in 1992 and must be three of the four that he refers to in his statement which he confirmed.  He said he was involved in four incidents in 1992 as I understand the statement.  Can you tell me what those incidents were and whether there have been in fact amnesty applications made in respect of all of them.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I think the best person to ask is perhaps Mr Gqomfa - to explain to us Mr Chairman, if he be recalled.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you not aware of them?

NORMAN ARENDSE: I am aware of them and I took instructions in that regard but I think it would be best if he explains that.  At the time that we consulted he wasn't comfortable with us disclosing that in his statement because as far as he was concerned this was about the Heidelberg Tavern matter, so perhaps it's best that he be asked directly Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you hear what I said to your counsel?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, I heard it.

JUDGE WILSON: Right, what were the four incidents that you were involved in 1992?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: It is the incidents that you referred to, the first one ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear the speaker.

CHAIRPERSON: Just talk a little loudly because the interpreter can't hear you.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Okay.  It is the incidents that the Chair referred to, the first one was on the 18th of March 1992, it was in connection with
the Zastron bridge.  The second one happened in Lady Grey, I think it occurred on the 22nd of March 1992.  The third one on the 10th or the 11th of October 1992 as well.

JUDGE WILSON: What was that one?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: It was at Xhalanga in Xhlala, is that the one you're talking about -  the 11th of March 1992?  The fourth one happened in Umtata at the police station, it was in 1992 but I cannot remember the date right now - that was before the October one.

JUDGE WILSON: Sorry, let me clear - the first was at Zastron on the 18th of March, the Zastron bridge one, the second one was at Lady Grey on the 22nd of March, is that correct?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: And the third one was where?

CHAIRPERSON: Umtata.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: The third one happened in Xhlala in Transkei - Xhalanga bottle store - I think that's what it was called, on the 10th or 11th of October ...[intervention]

JUDGE WILSON: '92?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: 1992, yes.

JUDGE WILSON: And the fourth is the Umtata police station and is that - the date given in this letter is July 1992?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: This is the one I'm not sure about the date, however it was before the Xhlala incident.

JUDGE WILSON: And have you applied for amnesty in respect of all four of these incidents?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, I made applications for amnesty for all the incidents.  There are other incidents that I gave to Mr Mbandazayo, I think three others.

JUDGE WILSON: You gave to who?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Mr Mbandazayo.

JUDGE WILSON: Now is there one - are  you also still facing trial in respect of the Zastron incident?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, I am going to court on the 3rd of March next year but those are not the cases I had referred to Mr Mbandazayo.

JUDGE WILSON: No, he said there were three other incidents he referred to him.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, there were three others that I referred to Mr Mbandazayo.

ADV SANDI: Which court is that that you must go to for the Zastron incident?

JUDGE WILSON: The Free State High Court.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: This was going to take place in Smithfield but it was postponed in Bloemfontein until next year.

JUDGE WILSON: I would ask those responsible to see whether they can find the applications in respect of these matters and I hand over the file now and refer to the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What has happened in respect of the Lady Grey matter, was there a trial?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I burnt a farm house.

JUDGE WILSON: Was anyone in it?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, according to my knowledge there was no-one inside.

CHAIRPERSON: Did that result in a prosecution?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, there is one person who was charged for this, I was not in jail yet at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: And what can you tell us about the Xhlala bottle store case?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: What do you mean Sir, would you like the details of the incident?

CHAIRPERSON: No, has there been a prosecution in that matter?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, nobody was sentenced, I was arrested - I could not hear the last words of the speaker, the previous sentence.

CHAIRPERSON: My question was, was there a prosecution, was there a file?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, I was out on bail for R500,00.  I did not go back because of other commitments and this case is still in the hands of the law.

JUDGE WILSON: What were you charged with?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Armed robbery.

JUDGE WILSON: And the Umtata police station?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Nobody was arrested because they don't know who committed the crime.

JUDGE WILSON: What crime?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: We raided the police station, we took the policemen's weapons.

CHAIRPERSON: That armed robbery case, in which court was that supposed to take place - the trial?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: At a low Court in Xhlala.  As I said before there are three others - other matters, the ones I discussed with Mr Mbandazayo.  I don't know why you're not mentioning them, perhaps they did not get here.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, could you tell us what these three others are - if you want to.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: It was the killing of people, three different people.  I cannot remember clearly the dates now.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, tell us who you killed and when and where.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I cannot remember the dates, the one happened in Xhumbu between 1991 and 1992 - late '91, early '92.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did you kill?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Mr Siqholo, I don't know his first name.

JUDGE WILSON: How do you spell - do you know how you spell his name?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: S-i-q-h-o-l-o.

JUDGE WILSON: Where did you kill him?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: At Xhumbu in the Transkei.

JUDGE WILSON: Why did you kill him?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: There was a political conflict between the ANC and the PAC, we had to defend ourselves because they were attacking - I've written down all the details in my form.

JUDGE WILSON: What form?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: The application I handed over to Mr Mbandazayo.

JUDGE WILSON: An application for amnesty or what sort of application?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman ...[intervention]

JUDGE WILSON: I'm a little lost, are you appearing for him?