Amnesty Hearings — White River — 2000-05-02

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.   Chairperson, the next applicant is General Shoke, he too will affirm and not take the oath.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: (affirmed states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Gen Shoke, what is your present position in the South African National Defence Force?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Director ...(indistinct)

MR BERGER: You've heard the evidence of Gen Nyanda, the evidence he gave about the landmine campaigning in the Eastern Transvaal.  Do you confirm that evidence?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Positive.

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me, Mr Berger.  You say Director of what?  His present position.  I didn't get his present position.

MR BERGER: What did you say your present position is?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Director of Personnel Acquisition.

MR BERGER: I think that's recruitment.

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Positive.

MR BERGER: Gen Shoke, you've also made an application for amnesty,  Your application, if you will confirm, appears in the bundle from pages twenty-one through to twenty-seven, with an annexure at 28 and 29, is that correct?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Positive.

MR BERGER: And you've also submitted a statement, which appears in the bundle from page thirty through to page 36, is that correct?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Positive, although some few corrections.

MR BERGER: Yes, I was going to get you to say something more than just positive, because I'm now going to ask you, there are certain corrections that you'd like to bring to the statement, the first is at page 33.  If you could just indicate the corrections.

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Paragraph 8 should be ...(indistinct)

MR BERGER: That's paragraph 8 at the bottom of page 33, you're deleting the word "urban" from the first sentence?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Positive.

MR BERGER: And also there was a correction that you wanted to bring under paragraph 6(c) on page , the last sentence.

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: To delete "later".

MR BERGER: Where it says Transvaal was later split, you say it was split because that split occurred much earlier, is that right?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Positive.

MR BERGER: And then finally at page 35, there is a correction, in fact it's an addition, the second paragraph on that page reads that
"The four landmines were planted, the information collected from reconnaissance would be accumulated and a decision to plant a landmine would be taken, based on that information."
You wanted to add something there.

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Although it was the procedure, but it was not always the case.

MR BERGER: That was not always the case.  Alright.  Now in fact, while we're on page 35, we can deal with the command structure of Kletshwayo, which you have listed the people involved there at the top of page 35.  You see that?  The paragraph which reads
"The structure responsible for planning and approval of landmines consisted of myself, Siphiwe Nyanda, Jabo Dumane (now deceased), Viva (now deceased) Sizwe (now deceased), Belgium (now deceased) and Little John (now deceased)."
You confirm that you were part of the command structure of Kletshwayo, is that correct?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: That's true.

MR BERGER: We also know from your application that you wore different hats, sometimes at the same time.  I want to ask you just in relation to Kletshwayo, because that's  all that this application today is concerned with, the landmine campaign, what was your function on this command structure?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: I was responsible for hardware.

MR BERGER: What does that mean?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Weaponry.

MR BERGER: No, no.  What does it mean when you say you were responsible for hardware?  What exactly would you do?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: That would mean when people, or when operations had to be carried out, the request or a requisition would be made to me and then I'll go to hide out, or hiding place and let them take out the necessary equipment.

MR BERGER: Were you responsible for providing that equipment, that hardware to the cadres, or was there someone else on this command structure who would act as an interphase?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: I think maybe this Committee will appreciate that we were operating on a need-to-know basis and hardware was one of the most delicate equipment to be handled and if you just give it direct to the individuals, you were exposing yourself to a serious danger.

MR BERGER: So you wouldn't hand it straight, directly to the cadres?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: No.

MR BERGER: Who was the person who would interphase between you and the cadres?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: In our structure, actually, I was liaising very closely with Viva.

MR BERGER: Viva being the Chief of Operations?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Exactly.

MR BERGER: And then as far as operations were concerned, did you have any knowledge about the exact operation, when, where, or was that left to the unit on the ground?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: As much as, actually like I said earlier on, we were operating on a need-to-know basis, what I think I want to make clearer in this Commission, that I take responsibility for all operations that took place while I was there, whether directly or indirectly.

MR BERGER: When you say directly or indirectly, can you explain what the difference is?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Indirectly in a sense that I was part actually of the command structure, and therefor I was part of the collective that made decisions and indirectly in the sense that I might have provided the equipment to carry out that particular operation.

MR BERGER: In the sense that, when you talk about indirectly, you mean not physically involved in planting the landmine at the scene.

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Positive.

MR BERGER: But nevertheless, you don't dispute your involvement in the entire operation?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: We were a collective.

MR BERGER: And for that you take responsibility?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Positive.

MR BERGER: For all the landmine explosions that occurred under the command of Kletshwayo?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Positive.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Berger.  Ms Mtanga, any questions?

MS MTANGA: I have no questions Chairperson, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Panel?

ADV SANDI: Just one, if I may.  General did you give any specific order or instruction to the third applicant, Mr Mkhonto?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: No, not directly.

ADV SANDI: Did you know him as a member of one of your units?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Very well.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Thank you Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: I've got no questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: During which period were you involved in this particular operation, this campaign?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Ever since its inception, until I think the beginning of 1988.

CHAIRPERSON: Would the inception have been in 1985?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Towards the end of 1985.

CHAIRPERSON: End of 85?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any knowledge of incidents that might have involved the persons that are listed on page 3 of the application papers as victims?  You can just have a look at that.  Have you got any knowledge of any of those people, possible incidents?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: I might not have knowledge of their names, but like I said, I take responsibility because it would be difficult for me to remember the names as to who is who.

CHAIRPERSON: So your position is, if these people were injured in incidents that fell within the campaign, then you take responsibility in respect of those?

SOLLY ZACHARIA SHOKE: Positive.