Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-07

MR SMUTS: Yes but the question I'm posing to you is within that time period, the killing of Mr Hani on the 10th April and your killing of the Weakley brothers on the 13th April, within that time period, did you obtain any information regarding right-wing activity which would have enabled you to pinpoint where your target group might be?

FUNDISILE GULENI: No I don't remember.

MR SMUTS: I ask you this because in your application form, on the typed page 6, in the second paragraph, you say
"From the day of Chris's assassination there was some information that armed Boers had arrived at Costello's place and others at second beach cottages"
which is incorrectly transcribed.   You then say:
"We were also informed that some Boers are going to camp at Mpandi Wild Coast.  These are the reasons that resulted in us attacking them."
Is that not true?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Ja, that is true.  What confuses me is the question of period between the incident of Chris Hani and the incident of the victims but in regard the question of this information about the arms, we did receive, but I'm not actually remembering the time when did I get the information but we didn't receive the information about the ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Here you say:  "From the day of Chris's assassination" that was the 10th and before the killing you received this information.  Is it true or is it not true?

FUNDISILE GULENI: It's true that we received this information.

ADV DE JAGER: So why didn't you tell us about it before?

FUNDISILE GULENI: I really apologise for that, it's a question of being accurate in remembering the ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: No, this is the most important information.  You couldn't have forgotten this, if it's true.

MR SMUTS: If it is true, Mr Guleni, from whom did you receive information that some Boers were going to camp at Mpandi?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Can you come again with the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you, who gave you this information, doesn't matter when you got it, you say you received that information.  The question is, who gave you that information?

FUNDISILE GULENI: It's hard really for me to recall the name of the people, person who gave the information but this falls amongst the report that we were forwarded in the office that these things are really happening.  At times I used to get in the office and get a report, we were having the people who were in the office as administrators.  So now at times you'd get a report that this is happening and ...[indistinct] due to the lack of expertise in terms of now getting the information, I don't know, but we received this information, we didn't have a follow up of saying "did you record the name of the person?"

MR SMUTS: Mr Guleni, how do you reconcile your evidence given minutes ago that the reason why you targeted Mpandi was because suspected right-wing meetings had been held there, with the reason given in your application form that you had direct information that some Boers were going to be camping there and that being the reason for your attack?

MR ZILWA: With respect, Mr Chairman, can that question be clarified because there's nothing here that reconcile those two statements?  If it sees there was information beforehand that this was used as a meeting places for the Boers and then it says there was information that some whites or Boers, as it is put, are going to camp there.  I don't understand what is reconcilable?

MR SMUTS: I would have thought it was patent, Mr Chairman.
	Your evidence was previously that Mpandi was targeted because you had heard that there had been suspected right-wing meetings there, correct?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Ja, correct.

MR SMUTS: You had no information regarding right-wing activity which would have enabled you to identify your target.  I asked you and you said you had no such information, correct?

FUNDISILE GULENI: That's correct.

MR SMUTS: This statement says that you had information that "some Boers were going to camp at Mpandi Wild Coast, these are the reasons that resulted in us attacking them".

ADV DE JAGER: No, Mr Smuts, I think you're incorrect.  They had information that Boers were camping at Second Beach, not at Mpandi.

MR SMUTS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, my transcription, it may be incorrect, reads
"From the day of Chris's assassination, there was some information that armed Boers had arrived at Costello's place and others at Second Beach Cottages.  We were also informed that some Boers are going to camp at Mpandi Wild Coast.  These are the reasons that resulted in us attacking them."

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry it's the next sentence.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Smuts, you don't want to read what you've just read together with the last sentence on the first paragraph, that will be page 41 on my document where it says
"Unfortunately, this assassination of Chris coincided with the situation where Port St Johns community was under" I suppose that is "threat" whatever?
It happened at a time there were all these problems, perceptions, rumours and suspicions being held?

MR SMUTS: Mr Chairman, I can only use the document as it stands and compare it with the witnesses evidence until this document was put to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Smuts, my problem is that you told us just now that the unexplained dispute was patent.  I too don't follow what you're trying to get at.

MR SMUTS: I'll try and simplify it as much as I can, Mr Chairman.  The witness has confirmed that he's earlier evidence was there was no evidence, that there was no information enabling his group to target, to establish where the target group was.  The statement says that information was received that some Boers were going to camp at Mpandi, which is where the attack was launched.  Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Guleni, you had confirmed that before the shootings on the 13th April 1993, you did not have information which enabled you to establish where your target group could be found?  Is that correct?

MR ZILWA: Mr Chairman, before that is answered, maybe that is not strictly correct.  The witness has been saying all along that the reason they targeted Mpandi is because they'd received information that these people were doing their planning at Mpandi, that is why Mpandi was targeted as an area.  So now to suggest that his evidence is that they had no information of saying where the target was would not be strictly correct.

ADV SANDI: But was it not part of his evidence Mr Zilwa that they could not attack them in town for reasons which he specified?

MR ZILWA: Mr Chairman, he has stated that it was said that these infiltrators were both in town and in Mpandi.  Now they decided that attacking the targets in town because of the problem of the police and the military which then left them with Mpandi which had also been identified as a place where the planning was occurring or where the infiltrators were camping, that has been his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: It was also his evidence that he didn't know who he was going to find there.

MR ZILWA: I'm sorry, Mr Chairman, I didn't get that?

CHAIRPERSON: It was also his evidence that they didn't know who they were going to find there.

MR ZILWA: Yes, they said they were not sure that they were going to find the targets in Mpandi hence they decided to send a scouting party first.

MR SMUTS: Yes Mr Chairman, the record will show that there was no evidence of any kind to suggest that right-wing elements were camping at Mpandi.  But if I might be permitted to continue, Mr Chairman?
	Your evidence was that up to the shooting on the 13th April 1993 you had not received information which enabled you to target, to locate your target group at any specific place, is that correct?

FUNDISILE GULENI: Can you come again?  Up to which stage?

MR SMUTS: Up to the shooting - up to the 13th April, you had not received information regarding your target group which enabled you to locate them in a specific place on that day?