Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR VALLY: Mr Chair, for the record, I want to do two things, I want to read the letter sent the by Amnesty Committee to General Neethling into the record, and I also want to refer to General Neethling's amnesty application.
 Very briefly, the amnesty application said as follows, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally, can I just establish, what is the purpose?

MR VALLY: Well, the purpose directly relates to my previous question regarding the case of General Neethling and Max Du Preez.  That's why I asked that question, because the amnesty application refers to that case.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm just wanting to find, where does this all lead us in terms of this particular enquiry that you are referring to.

MR VALLY: That is, or was General Neethling in terms of what he states in his amnesty application saying that the allegations or any possible evidence given by him in the Max du Preez case was incorrect, or the allegations against him was correct, I'm not clear.  General Neethling can answer the question, but I want to read what he said in his amnesty application, it is not altogether clear, but for the sake of the Amnesty Committee I also want to make clear what they told General Neethling, because there is a distortion, as if he was forced to withdraw his amnesty application, when this is not the case.
 So the first issue is a question relating to his amnesty application, the second this is, for the record, so that understanding of what position of the Amnesty Committee was.

MR CILLIERS: Mr Chairman, with respect, my learned friend says he wants to set the record straight because there are allegations made regarding the Amnesty Committee.  We are pressed for time and if I read the situation correctly, this will cause a debate which will take time and it will take away the right from other people who would like to pose questions.  If Mr Vally wants to put the case right with the press afterwards, it is his right to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cilliers, I don't know where this thing is taking us and I certainly - if you want to put a specific thing to Mr Neethling as to whether, whatever it is, I mean to read this thing into the record, he has told us he made an application, that application was rejected on the basis that he states, and I want to know the further question, where does it take this particular enquiry to?

MR VALLY: Mr Chairperson, there are two issues here, the one is directly related to the enquiry which is the subject matter of his amnesty application, which, and it's very short, and the second issue is an allegation he made against the Amnesty Committee which is false.

GEN NEETHLING: I made no allegation against the Amnesty Committee, sir.  Please repeat that allegation if I may, I'm stupid, I'm not a legal man, please tell me.

CHAIRPERSON: And where does it take the enquiry into the use of chemical and biological warfare in the programme in the perpetration of violations of human rights, Mr Valley, with respect ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: With respect, Mr Chair, the first issue regarding the amnesty application relates to poisons, etc as referred to in the Lothar Neethling versus Max du Preez trial.  That's why I quoted that passage regarding Dirk Coetzee.

CHAIRPERSON: Why don't you put it to him?  Why don't you put it to him ...(inaudible)

MR VALLY: Thank you, Mr Chairman, if you give me a chance, I will.

CHAIRPERSON: The allegation was made that you did ABC and D.  You don't have to go through the torturous process of referring to his amnesty application.  I think that case is common cause, in fact he quotes it ...(indistinct) reversing the amnesty application, even gives you reference, 1994(1) SA708(d).  Put the allegations to him.

MR VALLY: My question is this, you reported to apply for amnesty and I quote,
"In the light of previous events when evidence was published against me, see Neethling's case, if it is so, I ask cordially for amnesty as asked for by Bishop Desmond Tutu for all of us to participate in the process and the Amnesty Committee said",
You had not specified the acts for which you are asking for amnesty.  My question is this, are you saying that the allegations made against you in the case of Lothar Neethling versus Max du Preez, are in fact true and you're asking for amnesty for those?

GEN NEETHLING: No, sir, I said if they come with the same lies regarding any other incident, I would like to now ask amnesty because I want then to, like this year, I mean I'm extremely disturbed about this document which says that I know anything about Jotta.  This is a complete lie, now, it's so easy to brand a guy.  Let met tell you, sir ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Can I ask a question, General, do we understand from your application such as it was, that you were seeking an opportunity to put the record straight in relation to all the allegations that had been made.

GEN NEETHLING: That's correct, and if the Amnesty Committee was the vehicle that was available, that was the vehicle you wanted to use.

GEN NEETHLING: That is correct, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying we shouldn't construe this as having been an admission of any of the allegations that were made in the cases referred to?

GEN NEETHLING: Absolutely correct, sir, because that's why I said I cannot supply the Amnesty Committee any further detail because I do not have it.  If I had this document at the time, and I think it would have been relevant, if I had this document TRC 111, I would have referred to as that I said, I deny this, it's not true.  I did not have this document, sir, I did not have this document.  I would have referred to that as ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think the difficulty that we have is that you possibly did this without having benefit of legal advice because, I mean, you wouldn't - had you had legal advice, you would have been told that you do not use the Amnesty Committee process to deny allegations against you.

GEN NEETHLING: Sir, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You actually use them to admit allegations against you so that you can amnesty.

GEN NEETHLING: Let me tell you how this came about.  I was asked by the Commissioner, the previous Commissioner of Police, General Johan van der Merwe, he said to me, Lothar, in view of this request, almost begging, of Bishop Tutu regarding participation, we have decided to ask anyone, please apply for amnesty.  I said to him, but I cannot apply for amnesty, because I don't know what for.   He said: "Don't worry I'll send you the forms." I got the forms from one of his couriers delivered to my house. I filled in that form at about quarter past nine at night and it was said to me: "Don't worry about the under oath we will do it at the office." And it was gone. I didn't even think it was not by oath. So there it was. And then it came back to me a couple of almost a year later if I remember correctly the time. And it said: "Please give me more detail." I said I can't and then they said: "In that case please withdraw." I said: "Then I have to withdraw. I cannot do anything else." And then I withdrew.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally.

GEN NEETHLING: But on this point Sir may I ask your indulgence for 5 seconds. I was born in 1935 in Germany. I left Germany in 1948 at the age of 13. The war ended in 1945 and if you read the press you will see that I am being accused of having had 5 years of Nazis training, 5 years of Nazi training which means I started at the age of 5 to become a poisoner and I resent that. It destroyed my life. Simple irresponsible journalism and this is happening in this country every day. And I am making part of this process the way I see it coming out of here not what is said here but what is written. And this is written words, these are written words. This is deadly poison. This is what this is.

MR VALLY: General Neethling.

GEN NEETHLING: Yes Sir.