Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-21

MR NEL: Mr Mgengo, you are sent from Durban to finalise a very advance staged plan, you then bring Vuyani to two people in Durban who would assist them in your absence and you say you didn't have much to discuss with them?

NDODA MGENGO: What I'm trying to convey to you is that there was some co-operation between APLA and PASA, a high level type of co-operation in such a way that PASO was a banker of APLA, that's how we were able to get members.  Some of them are playing a very important role in the present political situation.  For instance Major General Xundu was member of PASO.  I was also a member of PASO.  There wasn't much I could talk to Xolani with regard to the operation besides the message that we should co-operate or they should co-operate and work together with the person that I introduced to them.

MR NEL: That is what I'm trying to establish.  What exactly was the message you as a role player from APLA giving the message to the role players from PASO in the form of your two colleagues applying to amnesty here with regard to the mission because your two fellow applicants seem to know or seem to indicate that they know very little about this total mission, the whole mission?

NDODA MGENGO: There isn't much that I can say besides to reiterate and say that Xolani and Mfundu didn't have much role with regard to the planting of the bomb, the limpet mine, but what was required of them was to co-operate with that particular member of APLA who was on a special mission to plant the limpet mine.

MR NEL: Did you ask Mr Seyisi and Mr Cuba to co-operate with Vuyani who is on a special mission to plant a bomb?

NDODA MGENGO: I've already said there is nothing to discuss with Xolani Cuba and Mfundu Seyisi with regard to the planting of the bomb because the main person whose duty it was to plant the bomb was Vuyani.  They were going to help him insofar as he needed or required to be helped.

MR NEL: The question was, did you ask Mr Seyisi and Mr Cuba to assist Vuyani in his special mission to plant a bomb, whatever assistance he needs, whether it was just to accompany him, whether it was to check for traffic or whether it was to check whatever, did you ask them to assist him in his mission to plant a bomb?

NDODA MGENGO: I never did.

MR NEL: What did they think they were going to accompany him for to Umbilo?

NDODA MGENGO: I had already said that the person who is going to plant the bomb was Vuyani Namba.  If he said Xolani and Cuba should accompany him, I do not know, I cannot shed any light because I was not present at that time.

MR NEL: I find it difficult to understand that as the logistics officer and the political commissar, you introduced to people who were scrutinised, I assume, to assist somebody in planting a bomb and you don't even tell them that this person is going to plant a limpet mine.  Is that how you operated?

NDODA MGENGO: According to my knowledge we worked on a need to know basis.

MR NEL: How was Mr Seyisi and Mr Cuba selected to assist in this mission?

NDODA MGENGO: I had already pointed out that the relationship between myself, Mfundu and Xolani especially with regard to matters of the PAC as well as PASO matters.  I also mentioned earlier on that we had some connections, we worked together, that is members of PASO and members of APLA so as I knew them personally and as a person who stayed with them and we shared the same residence, I felt that they were fit members who could help out and they were potential members of APLA.

MR NEL: Yet once again, your trust in them was such that you thought they were potential members of APLA but still they know nothing about the mission at all according to your evidence?

NDODA MGENGO: I think that this doesn't depend only upon not trusting them or their trustworthiness but details with regard to the APLA movement were not discussed openly, we worked only on a need to know basis so if we thought that there was no need for a person to know more, we did not volunteer information.

MR NEL: Mr Chairperson, if you could just bear with me for a second?  I've nothing further Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nel.  Mr Mpshe do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I have no questions thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe.  Mr Mbandazayo, do you have re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR SIBANYONI: No questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, Mr Mgengo, that's the end of your testimony, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson that's the applicants' case.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Nel?

MR NEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I'm not leading evidence in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'm not leading any evidence in this matter but perhaps Mr Chair, if the Chair allows, I have a second note from another victim I would like to read it onto the record?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes certainly.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, this is a note by Jabulisile Mkhize J-a-b-u-l-i-s-i-l-e Mkhize.  Jabulisile Mkhize is the daughter to one of the victims, her mother died later on after this incident and she states the following.  The mother was Grace Mkhize listed as one of the victims but she is deceased.  She says:"I forgive them.  If I don't, will my mother come back?  No.  We have to learn to forgive though losing my mother was very traumatic for all of us.  We are five children.  May the perpetrators build the nation that they once destroyed."
Thank you Mr Chairman, that is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you and thank you to Miss Mkhize for that.  Just some information that's not patent from the document.  I gather from the tenor of the note that Jabulisile's mother Grace died but was that death as a direct result as injuries received in the explosion on the bus?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I have not been in a position to can establish that, but that can be established very soon because she is within the hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.  Yes what remains now is submissions.  Are you prepared to make your submissions now?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nel?

MR NEL: Yes Mr Chairperson.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairperson, perhaps after just a short break, it's so terribly hot in here Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a very short break and then the legal representatives will present their argument to the panel.  If you could call us as soon as you're ready gentlemen, we'd appreciate that, thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?