Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-03

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: And Vips, as he was running, fleeing, jumping fences in Seloma View, he just disappeared that way.  He too had a pistol he once shot, shooting as he was fleeing.  Ntjebe was there as well and it transpired he left at comrade Manyala's.  In their explanation during the shoot-out he fled and slept at Manyala's place.
	We then went on to Moleleki Extension 2, escorting Miles and Izak.  On the way I shouted saying: a dog or a person that had a dog that was patrolling the previous night must come to block F.  There was a certain lady that we did not know.  We were at block A now on our way to Extension 2 Moleleki.  This lay was following us from behind, coming from A.  I didn't know her but there was certainly a lady who was following us.  Everybody was moving towards block F.  
	When we got to block F, myself, Izak and Miles.  When we got there Tusanang was not there.  We don't know how he left.  We don't know whether he gave any information to the community, we did not get to know that.  
	Miles and Izak joined these other five and they became eight ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] were they still - the five, were they in the shack when you arrived?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, they were.  When we arrived there escorting Izak and Miles, he had wrapped up a bandage on his arm.   When they got into the shack, the one whom we thought is Buthelezi's son, Buthelezi was standing behind me and the son was saying: "Dad, please explain to these people that you are the ones who were sending us".
	I then asked Buthelezi as to whether that was his son and he said: "Yes", and we indicated what they did and I said it's been a long time that this one has been saying: you are the ones that sent them to do things.  These are the bands that we have, they are the ones who went looking for the bands for  us when these happened.
	I have a picture in my mind, because in most instances when we were to go to a rally or a march or a funeral there used to be a particular person who would use certain medicine on us.  I had such an idea, even though I didn't see them all.  They were wearing these bands and I began to understand that everything else was planned thoroughly.  Here is a son saying: "Dad, speak out, we are in trouble because of you".  
	As we were listening to that a kombi arrived with Vips.  There was also Nkosikona Majola, comrade Manyana, Sandile Nchingolo sometimes.

MR MOTATA: Could you repeat the names you have just said, Vips and - say them slowly.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Vips arrived with these other comrades that I have just mentioned, Nkosikona Majola and Sandile Nchingolo Manyala and Boys Nxuba.  Vips did not get out of the kombi and as he stayed in there he peeped through the window, calling, looking at people who were involved in this conflict.
	He looked for Tusanang and he called Buthelezi.  He also called Buthelezi, the one I have already spoken of 8963, if I am not mistaken ...[intervention]

MR MADASA: ...[inaudible] mention?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: He spoke about the very same Buthelezi that we are talking about here and Mr Mokwena of 8963 in block F and Msala of block C.  He also called Sepo Baloi.  He was trying to get out of the kombi when the driver of the kombi drove back with him.  I don't know whether he was really calling, calling the community in block A to F.
	Those were six blocks that you could find in block F.  These people must have heard themselves what he was saying because I could not understand.  Then came the Red Cross.  I don't know who brought this Red Cross because the people whom we had sent did not come with it.
	They collected the cartridges of a 9mm pistol that was used to murder Bulelwa.  They picked up those that had been used and those unused together with the corpse and we got information that also in block E there is also another one, that body of Jackson Kiane ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sonti, let me just remind you that the question that you are answering is: why were the persons killed on the 7th, that's the question that your counsel asked you.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Mr Chairman, I had no part in the death of these people, those who were killed.  One part that I had was to find them in the places at which we found them so that they were brought together.  In other words I did not murder, I don't have a corpse.
	I think all those who did this, it is because of the two incidents, the death of Bulelwa and Blanko even though I think that before there was this conflict there was an attempt to try and reconcile.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you yourself not kill anyone?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes Sir, I do not have any murder on my side.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] you say that you believe that the persons were killed because of the death of Bulelwa and Blanko?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, I want to say that Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you say that?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Firstly, in the first instance when we found the first one, the first three that is, they looked for Tusanang - and comrade called Tusanang and Vips and I thought that all of these people that were finding, being called by these very same or found by these very same people, this might be the truth.
	There was not a single one  - or I saw the internal stability unit.  They spoke about the very same people with whom they were together, that is why I am sure about this.

CHAIRPERSON: Now are you saying that the people that you had captured told you that the persons who had killed these two persons were the ones that you had captured?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: On accusing one another, as I have pointed out, their conflict or differences started on the way as we were going to block F to the community, they meant to beat each other.  Tusanang was not happy why he was said to be part of this.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[indistinct]

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: They were saying: "You are the ones, the one who was organising this and Buthelezi was also saying: "It is Dad " because in the first instance he showed us something that he had on his arm.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: The incident that occurred on the 6th of Bulelwa and Blanko ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Were they saying that Buthelezi was responsible for the death of Bulelwa and Blanko?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: What I'm saying Sir is, even though he was the one behind the self-defence unit I think they were saying: "Because of all this or because of your view about us, it's the one that led us into trouble".  Vips and Tusanang were the ones who actually killed Blanko with Bulelwa.  Now they were accusing themselves as we were going with them to block F.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they tell you who killed Bulelwa?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: They said it was Tusanang.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they say who else was there?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Even though I have already said that there were many of them, some of them as far as I am concerned, I think they were just supporting at Moleleki Extension 2 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not asking you to give us your opinion as to why the others were there, I'm simply asking you, did they tell you who else had taken part in the killing of Bulelwa?  The first ...[indistinct] they gave you was Tusanang.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who else?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: And Vips Motloung.  When I said there was Vips turning in a kombi, he was also shouting and saying: people were forming this self-defence unit.  The self-defence unit was formed in block F, the one that people ...[indistinct] themselves to form and Vips was calling the people I've already made mention of, Msala and Mr Mokwena and Tusanang.

CHAIRPERSON: What did they say these people had done? Did they say what these people had done?