Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1999-05-26

CHAIRPERSON: We are about to start the proceedings.
For the record today is Wednesday the 26th of May 1999. This is a sitting of the Amnesty Committee held in Bloemfontein. The Panel presiding consists of myself, Denzil Potgieter, I'm assisted by Adv Gcabashe and Mr Malan. We are about to hear the amnesty application of John Serame Gulu, amnesty reference AM252/96. Mr Mohlaba, you want to put yourself on record? ... (intervention)
TECHNICIAN SORTED OUT SOUND PROBLEM

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Yes. Mr Mohlaba, do you want to put yourself on record, please.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chairperson. My name is Boka Mohlaba and I am appearing on behalf of the applicant, John Gulu. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Mohlaba. Adv Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I will be appearing on behalf of the victim's mother, Mrs Annie Montso. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Adv Steenkamp. Yes, Mr Mohlaba?

MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Gulu .... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just a minute. Just a minute, Mr Mohlaba. You want to call him to give evidence?

MR MOHLABA: My apologies, Chairperson, I want to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we're going to let him take the oath first.

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I'll continue with my evidence, sir.

JOHN SERAME GULU: (sworn and states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohlaba.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Gulu, you are the applicant in this matter and you are presently serving a prison term. Is that correct?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That is correct.

MR MOHLABA: You are serving a prison term in respect of the conviction on murder of Phinneas Montso. Is that correct?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That is correct.

MR MOHLABA: And you are today applying for amnesty for, in respect of this matter. Is that correct?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That is correct, sir.

MR MOHLABA: For record purposes, is it correct that you were born on the 17th of August 1967 at Postmasburg?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That is correct.

MR MOHLABA: During the period 1990 were you employed?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I was employed.

MR MOHLABA: And who were you working for?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That is Mosel Mine.

MR MOHLABA: And you are applying for amnesty on the basis that this offence of murder was committed by you with a political objective. Is that correct?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That is correct.

MR MOHLABA: This offence was committed on the 30th of May 1992. Is that correct?

INTERPRETER: Would you please repeat the question.

MR MOHLABA: The offence of murder was committed on the 30th of May 1992?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That is correct.

MR MOHLABA: Did you, during this period, that is the 30th of May 1992, belong to a political organisation?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, that is correct, I was a member of the ANC.

MR MOHLABA: When did you join the ANC, can you remember?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I was recruited in 199 ... (indistinct) to be a member of the ANC.

ADV GCABASHE: 199. what?

INTERPRETER: 1990.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR MOHLABA: Can you remember the person who has recruited you to the organisation?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes. That is Shadrach Fondisa.

MR MOHLABA: Did you know the deceased, Phinneas Montso before he was killed on the 30th of May 1992?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I knew him before.

MR MOHLABA: When did you come to know him and how? Can you explain in full details.

JOHN SERAME GULU: I knew him from birth because we were staying in the same township.

MR MOHLABA: And do you know whether he belonged to any political organisation?

JOHN SERAME GULU: I knew that he was a member of the ANC Youth League.

MR MOHLABA: Do you know any more history of him which we can explain to the Committee?

JOHN SERAME GULU: What I know about his history is that I knew him as a member of the ANC Youth League because we were together in that organisation and later he became a member of the Eagles Organisation. Then he wanted to recruit me to be a member of the Eagles Association and then I denied because I didn't want to be a member of that movement.

MR MOHLABA: Are you telling this Committee that you were approached by him and he requested you to join their movement, that is the Eagles?

JOHN SERAME GULU: That is correct, Chairperson. That is the one who approached me when I was off duty from the night shift. He came to me together with his colleagues. Then he requested me that I should be a member of the Eagles, then I denied.

MR MOHLABA: Why did you refuse to join the Eagles?

JOHN SERAME GULU: The reason for me to refuse to be a member of the Eagles is because I was already a member of the ANC. Then I knew later that Eagles was a gangster.

MR MOHLABA: And, what do you know about this gangster called the Eagles?

JOHN SERAME GULU: What I would say about the Eagles gang is that it was formed by a certain man from Bloemfontein whom I do not remember his name, that is the founder of the Eagles gang. Then I observed their activities later, that they were raping people in the township, then assaulting people and then they were not detained by the SAP.

MR MOHLABA: Do you know of any reason why these members of this gangster were arrested by the police?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I know why.

MR MOHLABA: Please explain.

JOHN SERAME GULU: The police were not arresting these people because they were using them and they were supporting them to do criminal activities within our township. For example, when they raped or when they assaulted people or when they have robbed, they were not arrested by the police. And they were used by the police to harass members of the ANC so that ANC should not exist within our township.

MR MOHLABA: So this organisation was an enemy of the ANC? Is this what you are telling the Committee?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, that is correct. That is what I am saying that this Eagles gang was an enemy of the ANC.

MR MOHLABA: I want to you to, I want to take you to the incident of the 30th of May. Can you remember where you met the deceased?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I do remember where we met.

MR MOHLABA: Can you explain what happened when you met with deceased until the moment when the deceased was killed?

JOHN SERAME GULU: We were busy arranging my uncle's funeral when I went out of the mortuary and they were at the telephone booth. He talked with my brother. I don't know what they were talking about. After that, they started fighting. While he was still fighting with my brother, his friends came to join him and fight against my brother. After that, Amos pulled a knife, then I twisted his arm to disarm him of that knife. Then he ran away. Then I used that knife to stab the deceased.

MR MOHLABA: You spoke of Amos, can you explain who Amos is?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Amos is a friend to the deceased. He is a member of the Eagles gang.

MR MOHLABA: And you disarmed Amos and stabbed the deceased until he died. Is that correct?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, I took the knife from Amos, then I stabbed the deceased with that knife.

MR MOHLABA: In stabbing him, what did you want to achieve? That is, what was your intention?

JOHN SERAME GULU: My intention was to kill him.

MR MOHLABA: And why did you want to kill him?

JOHN SERAME GULU: The reason was that he was a member of the Eagles gang which was supported by the South African Police.

MR MOHLABA: And was it also that you were belonging to the African National Congress which viewed these gangsters as your enemies?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOHLABA: But for meeting the deceased at that point, and but for him attacking your brother, would you have made initiative to try and kill him?

JOHN SERAME GULU: Yes, that is correct, I could have initiated, even if he did not attack my brother.

MR MOHLABA: And why would you have done that?