Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ADV DE JAGER: It was information which you had available
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and which as representative of the SAP you would have communicatedthere?

UNKNOWN: Yes I would have communicated it to themeeting.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Brigadier were minutes kept at these meetings?

UNKNOWN: Yes there were minutes.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Brigadier a coupleof questions I wish to ask you also referring to this particularevidence.  Concerning the filing system could you give the Committeean idea of the number of files, just broadly speaking, the numberof files which the Northern Transvaal Security Branch was keptin your offices?

UNKNOWN: I don't know the exact number but therewere a lot.

UNKNOWN: These are not files kept in your personaloffice, there was a filing system?

UNKNOWN: There was a filing room, yes.

UNKNOWN: Were these files files which were keptwith regard to actions and information with regard to particularactivists?

UNKNOWN: Yes that is correct.

UNKNOWN: Did I understand you correctly that thesame duplicate set or system was kept at your Head Office andthat there would therefore have been files of the particular activistswhich you had also at the Head Office?

UNKNOWN: Yes.  Also correspondence was kept in duplicatein my files and the Head Office files.

UNKNOWN: Could you explain to us under which circumstancesand for what reasons a file would have been opened?
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UNKNOWN: A file would have been opened as soon asa person became actively involved in political action boycotts,acts of terror, school boycotts, consumer boycotts, under thesecircumstances a file would have been opened on the person.

UNKNOWN: Brigadier would this have been every personinvolved in these actions, also minors?

UNKNOWN: Yes it would have.

UNKNOWN: The information contained in these files,where would this information have been derived from?

UNKNOWN: From informers.

UNKNOWN: Could you expand on the informant system,just broadly speaking?

UNKNOWN: We could not work without informers, wehad paid informers who made information available.  We never workedwith information of only a single informant, we had to have twoor three informants to give us particular information.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman if you will just give me onemoment please.  Brigadier were there other ways to obtain informationother than through informers?

UNKNOWN: Yes, interrogation methods.

UNKNOWN: Did you listen in on telephone conversations?

UNKNOWN: Yes.  We also look at the mail of peoplein the postal system.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Brigadier.  I just wanted toclear up that particular aspect.  I want to also ask you whilewe are pausing at this point, and before we continue with yourtestimony did you see the television programme last night broadcaston the SABC television with regard to
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Colonel de Kock, Eugene de Kock, did you see this programme?

UNKNOWN: I did too.

UNKNOWN: Brigadier did you see Mr Craig Williamson's,also a member of the security branch, statement with regard toinstructions?

UNKNOWN: He mentioned that instructions came fromthe top, from the State Security Council and he was a member ofthe State Security Council.

UNKNOWN: Broadly speaking did you get the impressionthat what he said on that programme corroborates with your testimonyhere today?

UNKNOWN: Yes that is correct.  He corroborated everythingthat I had thought was the case.

UNKNOWN: Did you also see that President P W Botha,that certain portions of his speeches were broadcast?

UNKNOWN: Yes I did.

UNKNOWN: Can you remember something with regardto the elimination of terrorists?

UNKNOWN: He mentioned that we would eliminate theterrorists.

UNKNOWN: When you saw this on television last nightBrigadier, what would your views have been?

UNKNOWN: I saw this in the light of the fact thatthe instructions which we received would have come directly fromP W Botha or the State Security Council.

UNKNOWN: Did you also see this as a confirmationof your testimony with regard to the instruction regarding theelimination of activists?

UNKNOWN: I did, Chair.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman perhaps at this stage I mightjust want to place on record that this is obviously
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something new.  We are trying to obtain a copy of the programmeand specifically the relevant parts thereof to be able to showit to you because I don't know if everybody on the Committee hasseen the programme.  There is tonight a follow-up programme at9 o'clock.  The programme is called "Prime-Evil" sothere will be a follow-up, if I may just mention that.  We willendeavour to find, especially the excerpt of President Botha wherehe talked about elimination.  We deem it important to introducethat as part of the evidence.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Wouldn't it be better, if you are goingto ask us to rely on the programme, that we should see the wholeprogramme rather than bits personally selected by you?  MRDU PLESSIS:   Thank you Mr Chairman.  I don't have any problempertaining to that.  It would be to the applicant's advantagein that one of the State witnesses that the Attorney General hasfought so valiantly for, namely Mr Joe Mamasela, has given hiswhole version on the handgrenade incident on television last night. And I would - therefore it would assist the applicants and Iwould have no problem in showing the whole programme.  Perhapsat this point one could make a specific arrangement in that regard.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr du Plessis thank you, you solved my dilemmabecause yesterday night I wasn't sure, as a member of the AmnestyCommittee whether I should watch that programme or not, so I assumeyou have no problem if I watch that programme?

UNKNOWN: I have no problem whatsoever.  The onlypoint I would want to make is in the evidence, and that will becomeclear and I will argue that at the end of the day as well, isthat there should be, to a large extent, a
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distinction made between the actions of Colonel de Kock and CaptainDirk Coetzee and my clients.  We will show that my clients, theapplicants, did not act exactly in the same way and we will indicateto you, the evidence will be that the applicants never received,for instance, any monetary or financial gain in respect of anythingthat they did.  We will draw a definite distinction between usand those two persons who were also at Vlakplaas, Dirk Coetzeebefore Brigadier Cronje and Colonel de Kock after Brigadier Cronje.
 Brigadier Cronje could you continue, the second paragraph onpage 17.

UNKNOWN: An example of the fact that instructionscame right from the top would have been the instruction givento me by General van der Merwe, then Brigadier van der Merwe touse handgrenades with the zero ignition device against ANC activistswho wanted to obtain these arms.  This instruction was given tome in Springs by General van der Merwe and during this instructionhe specifically indicated to me that this came directly from MinisterLe Grange and that it had indeed been authorised by PresidentP W Botha, as well as Commissioner Johan Coetzee, both of whomknew about this and authorised it.  If such an instruction camedirectly from President Botha it could not be other than thatthe general instructions to bring the situation under instructionas per the instruction of Brigadier Victor must have come directlyfrom the top.

UNKNOWN: May I just interrupt you Brigadier, itis correct that the event with regard to the handgrenades happenedprior to the instruction of Brigadier Victor, is that the case?