Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1999-05-27

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: There is no one that we contacted or with whom we communicated. We heard that Bongani had his brothers who was a member of Apla too. We would contact him and ask him as to Bongani's whereabouts, but we were not able to trace him.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that Bongani's brother, was he also a member of Apla?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And, and what about these other comrades that you contacted when you were in prison in order to discuss what should happen next? Mrapapa and the other comrades. Did you, did you not make any contact with any of them?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Let me put it this way. In most instances, cadres do not have a stable place where one would say one would be able contact them. They stayed in different places and I too had left the township where I resided, so that it was difficult for me to contact a particular person and find him always. That made it difficult for me, if not us, to communicate with other comrades.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you manage to make contact with them out of prison?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I sent my girlfriend to another person whom Mrapapa knew where to find.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, just say that again. You sent your girlfriend to another person who knew where to find Mrapapa, or, just say that again? I missed the last bit.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I am saying I sent my girlfriend to one place where I used to meet Mrapapa and she went there several times to no avail. And it so happened that they met. I am not in the position, though, as to where they met, or whether they met at the same place I had sent her or not. I don't know. But they knew each other.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Bongani give you, members of the unit, any money at all? As part of, from this, the proceeds of this robbery?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: No. I would not say give them any money. Bongani took all the money.

CHAIRPERSON: At your court case, what did the police tell the court? Was there any part of the money that was recovered by the police?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: The money, I don't know which money you are talking about as having been discovered by the police. There is no money that I can say was discovered.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the police not find any part of this R155 000 that was robbed? Nothing was found back by the police?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: No. They did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Bongani have family in this area where you were operating?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: No. I would not say he had a family in that area.

CHAIRPERSON: Where, the place where he was shot and killed, was that still in the area where you used to operate as a unit?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: After I was arrested, I learnt that he was shot at Orlando. That was not the place where we operated.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you operate in Vosloorus, or? Just help me. Where did you operate?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: We operated at Vosloorus and Katlehong.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes, thank you. Are there any other questions from the Panel?

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you, Chair. You joined the PAC in 1987.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: And you joined the task force in 1989.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: This incident occurred in September of '91.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Between 1987 and 1991, what activities were you involved in as an Apla member? And this is a broad question. Tell me about your political education, tell me about your military education or military training and then tell me about specific operations that you were involved in.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I think you said 1997. I don't know whether you made a mistake. Didn't you want to say 1987?

ADV GCABASHE: 1987 to '89 to '91.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: After I had observed the inequalities in South Africa, it became my intention to join any organisation which I thought would help that we should be free as blacks, because we were oppressed. I had an intention to meet with someone. I went and I met with Mike Makagula whom I knew was active in the PAC in the township. I told him my intentions. He took me to a house in Vosloorus where I met with Bongani for the first time.

ADV GCABASHE: Now this would have been in 1987?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: It was in 1987. We discussed, and I told them my wishes. See, my wishes were to go outside the country. Comrade Bongani then explained to me that it doesn't mean that if you did not leave the country, you would not have contributed in the struggle and he said that one can contribute to the organisation whilst inside the country. It has always been my intention that we, the oppressed, should be freed and they told me about all of these things. And Bongani told me that he wanted to know more about me because he did not know me, and indicated that he would not trust me on the first day. He did not know what kind of a person I am.
	I understood that, accepted it and I joined the organisation in 1987, but I was not involved militarily. I was an ordinary member active in the mass struggle, attending meetings, attending funerals and rallies. Till 1989, where I met with Bongani again and he asked me to whether I was still committed to the discussion that we had and I indicated that I still was committed.
	After the discussion he indicated how grateful he was because he was going to need me during those, or around those days. And he made it clear to me as he explained earlier on that my skipping the country would not be of help to me, as there were financial problems. There were many problems so that it would be difficult for some of these comrades when they had to come back, and indicated that it was necessary that I undergo training inside the country and he was going to train me in the usual firearms. Indeed, that was so. He trained me. And I underwent a crash course in the use of an AK47 and pistols and many other firearms. ...(intervention)

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, can I just interrupt you at that point. Were you alone when you underwent the training or did you train as a unit?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: He trained me alone at the time.

ADV GCABASHE: Were you part of a unit at that point? This is 1989 and I know that you were part of a task force. But were there other members who you knew at this point, even though you may have been training alone?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: At the time of the training, the unit had not yet been formed. He trained me first, after which I got to know these other Africans whom he introduced to me and that is when he explained to me that we were going to operate as a unit.

ADV GCABASHE: Again, can I stop you just there. When exactly did you then meet your other comrades who were part of your unit?

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: I started to operate as a unit member in 1990.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Continue about then the activities that you were involved in with the other members of your unit.

THEMBINKOSI NGUBENI: Our area of residence was marred by violence. People were dying almost on a daily basis. Fighting was going on. It started off as something that seemed like a taxi violence, but later on it seemed as if it was an Inkatha/ANC fight. And it later on took another dimension that presented itself as a fight between AmaXhosa and AmaZulu.
	But the comrade made it clear to me this violence is political, and that we had to work as a unit to try and protect the community. Because these people were coming to houses, shooting people in their sleep, children, old people and take whatever they could take. So what we did as a unit, we used to patrol in the township to protect the community against these people who were attacking the community. That is what we used to do after my training as a member of the task force. That is what we did as an operation most of the time until 1991 when we ...(indistinct) this operation.