Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-09-14

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.  But for the past two days, both in your application and in annexure or EXHIBIT E1 that was handed up to the Committee and in your extensively amplified oral evidence, his name never came up related to that incident, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.  The incident at the Ermelo taxi rank where you were arrested, you said you were arrested with firearms, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: Now, is that the incident that is described in paragraphs eighty three (83), eighty four (84) and eighty five (85) of your amnesty application, or is that a separate incident?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.  But in this incident you were not arrested with firearms, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MR SWANEPOEL: And in the incident described in your amnesty application the name of Mangethi is not mentioned anywhere, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, I have explained as to why it is not.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.  And the names of Mike and Dr Mathibula, throughout extensive cross-examination and your detailed application, and an additional affidavit, never came up until your cross-examination now by Mr Patel, is that correct?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct, and I've explained why they have to appear in this fashion.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes.  As you please, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Wills, do you have any re-examination.

MR WILLS: No re-examination.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.  Mr Mpshe, let me ask you first.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Hlongwane, Bhobholina's mother, Zini Shongwe, as well as the woman who was killed in Davel in that house that was burning, who's now being known as Mrs Malinga, would you agree with me that these two woman were not on your hit list?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Mrs Shongwe was in the list.  That's where we were supposed to attack whatever we find inside.  MamZini was one of the direct target and in the Malinga family we were supposed to attack anything which ... (intervention)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Okay, let me separate them for your convenience.  Mrs Zini Shongwe, the mother to Bhobholina, she was not your initial target?  The target was her son?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, if you had succeeded to kill Bhobholina, the reason for killing him, you wouldn't be able to use it for killing his mother?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, let's move to Mrs Malinga, the woman in Davel.  That woman also was not your target.  She just happened to be in the house when you attacked that house.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: And in respect of this woman as well, Mrs Malinga, you cannot give any political justification for killing her.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I would like to explain, sir.  Mr Mkhonza said we are going to attack and kill in that area.  Which means, we were supposed to kill ANC members.  That was the aim of the attack.  I was told to go and kill the ANC because it's only in the ANC place.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Had you ascertained whether she was ANC member or not?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: My work is not to ascertain ... (intervention)

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, but you were told to kill ANC members.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: ... but is to take instructions and execute them.  Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now, had you ascertained whether she was ANC in order for her just to be killed by yourselves?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Chairperson, I said that my work is to take an instruction from the leadership and if they confirm that that person is an ANC, what I'm supposed to do is to go and kill the person.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: All right.  Okay.  Perhaps that may be a point for argument, but a last question on this very aspect.  Your instruction was to kill ANC members?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Let's leave it at that.  Now, let's move to the killing of Thembisa scholars, that's paragraph fifty seven (57), page one hundred and fifty four (154).  To remind you, this is an incident where you met the two school boys who were identified by China, do you remember that?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How did China identify the two boys for you?  What did he do?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: He was walking in front of me, not far from me.  After passing them he raised up his hand and I realised that I had to attack, and I attacked them.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So, all he did is to go past them, show a hand, and you kill?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, that's how he indicated to me.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you know the criteria China used in order to determine whether people were ANC or not, yourself?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, I knew.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Right, what would he do?  What was the criteria?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: He will pass the person.  For example, we will go to a house.  He will point it out and show me the house, their cars and if we were to attack targets walking on foot, when he passes that particular person and raises up his hand and then I know it's the time to shoot, and that's how he indicated the targets to me.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I don't want you to be confused.  What you are describing is what he would do to indicate to you whether they are ANC members or not, but my last question was on the  criteria and you said you knew that.  I don't know whether you understand me well.

CHAIRPERSON: Repeat your question I think, Mr Mpshe.  Just repeat it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you know the criteria that China used in identifying members of ANC?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: No, Chairperson, all that I know was that China is a person who is a resident of Ermelo.  He knows all the members of the ANC.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: So your answer is you did not know the criteria used.  That's all.

UNKNOWN: Isn't the answer, Mr Mpshe, that China was aware who was an ANC member or not as being arrested and in Ermelo?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Ma'am, with respect, that is why I say he did not know the criteria, but as he explained, he knew that.  So I will leave it at that.  Thank you.  Let's move to a Mr Ndlovu, the person known as December.  Do you recall you said his death was ordered because he had killed Mr Mkhwanazi's son?

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: Yes, it is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now my question is.  If December had killed Mkhonza's son - no, no, let me put it this way.  My apology.  If December had not killed Mr Mkhonza's, you would not have killed him.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: You mean Mkhwanazi?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mkhwanazi's son, sorry.  My apology.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: They were not going to give me instruction to kill him and I wasn't going to kill him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That's it.  So, this can be taken as a revenge, the killing of December.

ISRAEL NYONI HLONGWANE: I will put in this way.  I kill him because at the time, to explain, the Black Cats were being killed by the members of the ANC and that was the time at which the Mkhwanazi's son was killed.  Therefore the death of December, it was because he was part of the ANC members who killed the Mkhwanazi son.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Indulgence, Mr Chairman.  Just one last question.  Page one hundred and sixty seven (167), paragraph ninety four (94).  That's where you testify about the eight hundred rand (R800,00) and the grocery.  My questions is actually a follow up on what my learned friend, your lawyer, ask you when you were testifying on this.  Now my question is.  Was this eight hundred rand (R800,00) that was given to you per month, payment for your operations?