Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-16

ADV PRIOR: But at the same time, you believed that this was what the politicians, this is what your seniors wanted?  This was your response to the pressure that they were putting on you to solve the problem?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: That is correct Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: You see, General, something bothers me.  We have heard evidence for the last year or so, concerning hit squads and death squads, the operations that were carried out by the Security Police across the borders, and we have heard evidence that for example Vlakplaas was responsible for a lot of assassinations outside and inside the country.
	We also heard, we have heard evidence that normally Vlakplaas was utilised by the various regions to carry out political assassinations.  But we have also seen that members of the Eastern Transvaal Security Branch, also carried out murders, that Port Natal also carried out murders of their own, without the intervention of for example Vlakplaas and they all seem to be, or seem to have surfaced more or less at the same time, from 1986, 1987, 1988.  Do you agree with that assessment, in its broadest or generalist terms?
	That there were murders committed by the Eastern Transvaal, by Port Natal Branches of the Security Police?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Mr Chairperson, is the question about the fact that these deeds were committed in various provinces at the same time or not?

ADV PRIOR: Let me come closer to the question.  It seems that in various regions, the various Security Branches employed the same tactics that you as applicants now employed, and there seems to be no indication from above, that this was going to be a tactic or a policy, it just seems to have been decided amongst the Branches themselves, and that is what troubles me.  There seems to be no coordination yet, over the period that I have mentioned, these methods were employed by various offices of the Security Branch?

MR MALAN: Mr Prior, I think that statement is clear, the reaction is what is your question relating to the statement.

ADV PRIOR: Well, are you able to comment whether there was no coordination at a high level, in other words was this not the implementation of a policy?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: No Mr Chairperson.

ADV PRIOR: Would you just ascribe it to something that just happened, everyone seemed to be thinking the same thing at the time?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: No Mr Chairperson, there was no official policy.

MR MALAN: May I follow on this.  Mr Steyn, we have heard evidence here about Vlakplaas who was asked by Taylor to take certain action regarding Bhila, you heard the evidence?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Why would the request have been directed at Vlakplaas if there wasn't any knowledge that Vlakplaas performed such actions?  Would the reasonable inference not be that Mr Taylor at least had to have been aware of murders which were committed by the Vlakplaas unit?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: That is an inference which he could have drawn.

MR MALAN: Did he at any stage tell you about it?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I don't know if he personally told me about it.

MR MALAN: Did you hear at any other place that Vlakplaas had been involved in such murders during the time that you were the Commander of the Security Branch in Natal?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I was aware that Vlakplaas had been involved, but I cannot put my finger on exactly what and when it happened.

MR MALAN: So in a certain fashion you became aware that Vlakplaas was committing murders?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: There were other cases in other divisions of which I knew there were investigations.

MR MALAN: Were any of those investigations brought before Court where certain individuals were charged?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: If I remember correctly, I could refer to the incidents in the Eastern Transvaal where a number of people were shot and where there was indeed an investigation in the Eastern Transvaal division, if I could just think quickly.

MR MALAN: Did you know that those were full blown murders?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: No.

MR MALAN: Please Mr Steyn, the question has got to do with murders, because you will remember the evidence that we had here regarding Bhila was that Vlakplaas came down to do the routine work, and that they were approached by Taylor with regard to the execution of a certain murder.
	I am just summarising it very briefly.  Why would Taylor have mentioned it if he did not know about it and you have just testified that he must have known, otherwise he would never have asked?  So similarly, did you have any similar knowledge at your disposal which would have led to you issuing a similar request?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I probably would have been able to lodge such a request, but I never would have.

MR MALAN: I don't know if you understand me correctly.  I am asking whether or not you could have made such a request because you had knowledge that Vlakplaas was involved with murders.
	I am not accusing Vlakplaas here, but this is actually the framework within which we can view this situation.

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I don't think I would have been able to direct such a request.

MR MALAN: And then you said that you relied on Taylor and Botha and the people below them for information regarding these incidents?   I think it is common cause if we accept your evidence that you did not know about Bhila, but that Taylor at least did know about that?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: And now, just as Mr Prior is attempting, I am also attempting why you went to Swaziland.  My question is if this was the first time that you had contact with this sort of abduction of which the expectation was the murder if we look at Taylor's evidence, was the attempt not to implicate you in these actions or activities?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: If I remember correctly, and I am speaking under correction with regard to dates, I was already if I recall correctly, before that incident, the Ndwandwe incident, I had been with some of my members on scenes where shooting incidents had taken place, where we were aware of the presence of trained terrorists and if I remember correctly, I was present at at least three where full scale fights broke out and people were shot.

MR MALAN: You can tell me if you are actually aiming at something here, but this question is not about contact situations or combat, the question is about planned killing of individuals who were not armed when they were killed.
	I think that you led us to understand that you could not have been involved in something like that previously, that your first incident in Natal had to have been Ndwandwe.

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: If I remember correctly, then that is the case.

MR MALAN: My question is, were you not involved in the Ndwandwe matter on the basis that it was said to you that the primary objective was the abduction and that they wanted you along for the information?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: I don't think that there were any other intentions to implicate me in the incident.  It was my own desire to go along.

MR MALAN: I beg your pardon Mr Prior, I would just like to follow up on this.  The evidence of Mr Botha initially indicated that the actual test and this is also in his application and in your application, the test to see whether or not Ndwandwe could be an informer, was applied during interrogation and that the process followed through that, in other words, if it was a consequence, I am talking about your written application, a consequence of abduction and cooperation, but Mr Botha made it very clear to us that these documents are actually incorrect, that the intention was actually to kill her unless there was absolute certainty that she would cooperate as an informer?

JOHANNES ALBERTUS STEYN: That is correct.