Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-07-07

MR VALLY: Well can you please tell us?

DR MIJBURGH: It would have happened after '85 because prior to that they did not have the facilities to do something like that.  It was only involved late 1986, so it would have been during the time that I was Managing Director.

MR VALLY: Alright, can you just briefly tell us, this happened when you were Managing Director after 1985 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally, can you just allow Dr Randera to follow that question up.

DR RANDERA: Dr Mijburgh, just tell us, from what I understood in the - what's come out earlier on, your company actually had the facilities to actually produce methaqualone as well?

DR MIJBURGH: That's correct.

DR RANDERA: Now when did that start, and when you - earlier on you said you were aware of what research that was being done within your company as the MD, now something like methaqualone is not produced everyday.  Now can you recall when your company started producing methaqualone?

DR MIJBURGH: I cannot recall exactly when it was, there is certain documentation that was here that indicated that it took place during '88, so it would have been after '86 in any case, because before '86 Delta-G did not have the equipment to make it.

DR RANDERA: No, what I'm trying to understand is, if you have, and again from what I understood earlier on, your company wasn't just there to do research on certain chemicals and medications on drugs, you actually had the facility to mass-produce substances.  Now why if you had the facility to produce methaqualone already, you had the - Dr Koekemoer if I understand correctly, had started working more or less the same time as you had come to Delta-G, he had the formula for producing this substance already.  Why if you have the ability to produce that already within your company, you still get tablets from the Forensic Department, crush it, extract the substance, can we understand that?  Surely it would be easier and cheaper just to produce it from

DR MIJBURGH: I do not think so, I'm not trained in chemical ware, I cannot say how cost effective it was to manufacture this versus extracting it, I would have thought that there were not sufficient tablets available to extract it for the needs of the Defence Force at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Thank you, Mr Chair.  We keep hearing this word, for the needs of the Defence Force.  What would happen, does the Defence Force say, we need 1000 kilograms of methaqualone, produce it for us?

DR MIJBURGH: That's correct.

MR VALLY: But I thought you were the front company which provided the research facility and the research into possible incapacitance.  You were the people who would say, yes this works, no this doesn't work.  Would that be correct?

DR MIJBURGH: We worked on certain substances, we could only say on a theoretical basis whether it worked or not and our objective was to manufacture this substance, not to comment on its effectiveness.  Yes, in the research thereof on a theoretical level one can say that one thing would be more active than another, and then we attempted to manufacture this specific substance, but we did not set the need for the Defence Force.

MR VALLY: Are you saying that you would get an instruction from the Defence Force asking you for certain chemical derivatives?

DR MIJBURGH: In certain circumstances, yes.

MR VALLY: In the case of methaqualone?

DR MIJBURGH: Yes.

MR VALLY: And whether it was effective as an incapacitant or not was irrelevant?

DR MIJBURGH: To us it was not relevant at all.

MR VALLY: And for ecstasy?

DR MIJBURGH: For the MDMA the same.

MR VALLY: So whether it works or not, whether it's useful or not, you got an order, you manufacture?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: Where would these items have been researched, where would someone research?

DR MIJBURGH: I cannot comment on that, I do not know.

MR VALLY: I put it to you that Delta-G was specifically created for the purpose of researching chemical substances, such as incapacitants, and if research was not done at Delta-G, it would not have been done anywhere else.  I put that to you, what's your response?

DR MIJBURGH: Delta-G was established, no - as far as I heard it was initially established to do chemical research for the Defence Force.  By the time that I became involved in Delta-G it was specifically there to on a chemical level do research for the Defence Force, and later on contract, and to manufacture substances for the Defence Force, whether we developed them ourselves or whether the Defence Force requested it.

MR VAN ZYL: At this stage there is an aspect which I do not find quite clear in terms of the way in which Mr Vally asked the question.  If he referred to research, does it mean research done prior to the establishment of a need ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: I think, with respect, I have to interrupt this.  I think he's trying to give an answer to his client.  If his question is not clear he can ask me to repeat it, but to answer on behalf of his client is certainly not his role in this hearing.

MR VAN ZYL: If I would like to give my client a reply I wouldn't put the microphone on, I'd do it softly.  It is unclear to me and I think that a distinction must be made.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Zyl, Mr Vally, do I understand you to be objecting to the question, Mr van Zyl?

MR VAN ZYL: Yes, on the basis that it is unclear.  As I understand it research can be done depending on the need for a chemical substance, or research can be done prior to the need being established and the establishment of the need can then be made.  I think this distinction should be made, which is not being done in the question set by Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Mr Mijburgh, I asked you a very specific question, I asked you whether you were involved in the research into the possible uses of methaqualone, trade name mandrax, and ecstasy, what you called MDMA, and the code name you used was Baxil.  Your answer was, no, you were just involved in the production thereof.  Do you stand by that answer?

DR MIJBURGH: I was not involved personally, but Delta-G was involved, but I cannot recall that Delta-G was involved in any other research, except for the methods to manufacture it and the manufacturing thereof.

MR VALLY: Fine.  Now, you're aware that Delta-G was a military front company, who did you get orders from to manufacture these substances?

DR MIJBURGH: From the Defence Force.

MR VALLY: Who, to your knowledge, was the - let's talk about ecstasy, who was it delivered to?

DR MIJBURGH: It was delivered to the Defence Force via Medchem Consolidated's offices, where Dr Basson received it.

MR VALLY: And what happened to it thereafter?

DR MIJBURGH: Later it was destroyed, apparently.

MR VALLY: You lost - it was out of your control once you manufactured and delivered it?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: Well, let's track one item.  I've shown you TRC 77(a) which was an order for 1000 kilograms of ecstasy, do you accept that?

DR MIJBURGH: Correct.

MR VALLY: At this stage was Dr Koekemoer responsible for the manufacture of the ecstasy?

DR MIJBURGH: I think so, yes.

MR VALLY: You were not aware of his concerns about the ecstasy?

DR MIJBURGH: I cannot recall that he made any such comments at that stage.

MR VALLY: General Neethling told you nothing about this?

DR MIJBURGH: No.

MR VALLY: What would happen - and you're not aware any research being done at Delta-G when you were Managing Director into ecstasy, into MDMA, other than manufacturing it?

DR MIJBURGH: No, I'm not aware of any other research.

MR VALLY: Just for the record, and you may have been here when Dr Koekemoer gave evidence, I am not sure, but Dr Koekemoer stated that he was extremely sceptical about the incapacitant qualities of ecstasy, and he's a chemist, he would know better than you, is that correct?

DR MIJBURGH: I would think so, yes.