Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-28

MR LAX: Can I just ask something, sorry.  The translation came through, set up someone in a complimentary position?  Compromising?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Compromising position, sorry.

INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises, it was misheard.

FERDINAND BARNARD: It all depends how you look at it as well, because it is a bordello.

MR COETZEE: Mr Barnard, you established the system and this house, what was the basic idea, what would you have used it for, you yourself, as a member of DCC?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, I used it for planning, they later appointed me as a chief agent, there were other agents who resorted under me, and I would speak to them there, and give them their tasks there.  I became a co-ordinator.
	What happened was that I had contact with the Heads in the system.  They would give me a specific task at a place called The Table, where the information was put together in the broader context, like a puzzle.  I would receive information and send it through to those resorting below me and give them specific tasks.
	They would report back to me, and I would report it back during the co-ordination sessions.

MR COETZEE: What sort of tasks and what sort of information?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Honourable Chairperson, it was actually very general, regarding anything that had to do with MK and its activities, my specific task for me was to focus on the special operation units in MK and MK's involvement in crime.

MR COETZEE: And did you establish your substructure with your agents?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes.  It snowballed so quickly and grew so quickly that it actually caught everybody unawares.  There were numerous successes and money was not a problem.  The money just came in.
	Later on for example, I took someone like Eugene Riley and recruited him and he was appointed on a probationary period as an agent.  Later, because he proved to be a good operative, they appointed him as a fixed agent and he himself, had his own substructure.  Every agent in turn had its own substructure of sources and informers and I was at the pinnacle of this hierarchy.  Just to indicate the sensitivity of the house and the application of the house, when it happened that Vlakplaas was scaled down, Mr de Kock came to me for an interview and offered that some of his top askaris and informers would be prepared to come over to me.
	He didn't want to send them over to anybody else and he didn't want them to be without an income.  It was also decided that due to the sensitivity of some of these sources, they could not be seen by me anywhere else, except there, because it was a place where there was easy access and not that much traffic overnight and over weekends.  The brothel which was managed there by the persons who I had put in command, didn't know about the other persons who were coming and going, so it wouldn't have drawn any attention of neighbouring businesses or neighbours as such.

MR COETZEE: You established the system, you collected the information and you were earning the satisfaction of your handler.  Could you just tell the Committee of these askaris who were handed over to you by Eugene de Kock, what was the value of it?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, before I answer the question and elaborate on it, I would just like to add that I don't have any problem with disclosing the name of any person who was an operative with me, or who was involved with me, or who gave me orders or with whom I was involved in specific tasks, but what I am not prepared to do under any circumstances is to disclose the identity of any informer, whether the person was an askari or whether the person was an informer, whatever the case may be, I am not prepared to do so, because it will jeopardise those persons, and I feel that in the same spirit of reconciliation, it would not be the proper thing to do, because many of those people had no other choice but to play along with us.
	It is not like these grand recces who make me sick to the bone, who gave orders to me and who ran to go and testify in Wouter Basson's case.  No one pressurised them to do it, but all of them came running in with a Bible under the arm, and gave evidence against these people.  However, the informers were in a completely different situation, they were pressurised and some of the askaris were placed in the position where they had to cooperate or die.
	Sketched against that background, I do not wish to disclose the identities, but I am more than prepared to say or to indicate what I did with them, without disclosing their identities.

MR COETZEE: Were they valuable, just to get back to the evidence?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, there were many of those who were prominent, some of the best persons from Eugene de Kock, I bought over from him.  When I say that, I don't say that Mr de Kock received money for it, DCC had the system whereby one would feed in the person's particulars and access into the system and a value estimation would be made of this person's access, a test run would be conducted to see what kind of information the person could provide, and then it would be decided that X amount would be allocated with which he or she could be bought.
	That recruitment bonus would then be a bonus which would be used to motivate this man in the first place, to prove to him that he would be looked after.    I received an MK Commander in this fashion, as well as someone who was highly prominent in the counter-intelligence unit of the ANC.  Two such persons were brought to me and then there were also others who were recruited by me or who came to me via de Kock.
	This specific Commander became successful overnight, because he had access to all the important decision making cells, where MK would meet.  He was involved in all such meetings and structures.   He kept us one step ahead, so to speak.
	The intelligence that he provided to me, was of inestimable value and I could see immediately that this was intelligence on a completely different level.  If a new structure were to be established today in a certain area, I cannot say which area, because that would identify him, but if a new structure was established on a certain day, I would know about it on the same day, and I would know about all the changes taking place in all the structures.  It was of inestimable value.
	It fortified our system.

MR COETZEE: Can you tell us who your substructure was?  You have already stated that Eugene Riley was your subagent, who else was involved?

FERDINAND BARNARD: There were also other agents who were involved, they are not applicants for amnesty, but there was Sam Malgas and two others who were also agents, and then in the substructure, I had Mark Francis, but this is in the sub-network of informers, who physically dealt with criminals on grassroots level, Christopher Human, there were numerous of them.

MR COETZEE: And this is where you received the information that you would send up to Righ Verster?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct, Righ Verster was incorporated at a certain point because he had been at the Head Office of DCC originally, but he was a sensitive case due to his background, he had spent time in prison.  He was also involved in the Zulu factions.  The one faction hired him and then he shot dead some of the soldiers from the other faction in the mountains, so he was the type of guy who was a very sensitive issue.
	He, Verster, Price, myself, Anton Nieuwoudt, who was a former DG of Ciskei and a Colonel in Military Intelligence and the story which was told to me was that he had something or other to do with the death of Lennox Sebe, or Charles Sebe, I cannot recall, it was one of the two, who was killed in the Ciskei.
	Because he was of such a sensitive nature, he was not allowed to visit the Head Office of DCC, he had to be handled in a completely different fashion, so he was also involved.