Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-19

MR LAX: Yes, but as I understood it, you had different regions and those regions were responsible for specific areas, like Namibia would have been a particular area with others.  If there was information that required something to be done in Namibia, why wouldn't you use those people to do it, why send and expose your Region 6 people externally?

EDWARD WEBB: They possibly had too much work and they needed assistance.  It wasn't a rigid organisation, it was quite flexible.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now do you know Pieter Botes?

EDWARD WEBB: Pieter Botes, if that is the person fired by Mr Verster, yes, then I know him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Because he is on record saying that Botha was monitoring - yes, I'm sorry, leave Botha out of it, Pieter Botha(sic) says that there was a plan to kill the South West African SWAPO person that we are talking about, Hamutenya.

EDWARD WEBB: I don't have any knowledge of that.

GEORGE BIZOS: If it was going to be done by the CCB, Region 6, this would have required your authority?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Or any region, it would have required your authority?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now is Nico Bessenger(?) known to you?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was there any plan mentioned to you by any region to murder him?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is there any reason why his name should appear in Mr Basson's diary that was produced at the Harms Commission?

EDWARD WEBB: I have no knowledge of that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was it reported to you by anyone at any stage that there was a plan to kill him?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you know whether or not he was also from Namibia/South West Africa, as it was then called?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you know Daniel Tjongarero?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, his name is familiar to me.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did anyone report to you that he was being monitored by Botha and Barnard?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: You'll find that, Mr Chairman, in B9 and B122.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now these three persons Hamutenya, Bessenger and Tjongarero are all SWAPO people, why should the CCB be monitoring four people?  Those three and Anton Lubowski?  What business was it of the CCB to monitor four people from Namibia, other than killing them?  And they certainly succeeded in killing one of them.  Why should they be monitoring them?

EDWARD WEBB: I only know about the monitoring of Anton Lubowski.  That was done in South Africa.  If there had been other plans, he might have been monitored in Windhoek.  I don't have any knowledge about the other three members, so how can I answer you?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, but you know as Head of the CCB, having regard to its aims and objectives and having such knowledge as a leader should have and must have had, you might be able to furnish an innocent explanation as to why the CCB members were monitoring them, other than for the purpose of killing them or doing them serious harm.  Can you think of any reason why these four Namibians should have been monitored?

EDWARD WEBB: I repeat, Anton Lubowski was monitored to see who his contacts were within the Republic of South Africa.  That's a nice innocent reason, Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well except for this.  We don't know what the innocent reason might have been but we do know that he was murdered.  So you know, there is a sort of presumption of continuity of sorts that we lawyers speak about.  So can you think of any lawful reason why the four Namibians were being monitored at about the same time and one of them died an unnatural death, after they had received this innocent attention from the CCB?  You see, the Committee has to work on probabilities and you are the Chairman, you should be able to tell us.  Each one of these facts standing on its own may not tell a story, but if you analyse them the way we do, they do tell a story, don't they General?  Even for a General you know, that has to make a plan, he's got to take the facts in front of him and see what pattern there is.  Have you got any innocent explanation why four, according to their own versions, four of the CCB people were monitored at or about the same time and one of them were shot dead?

CHAIRPERSON: Four of the SWAPO people were monitored.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm sorry, SWAPO members.

EDWARD WEBB: I repeat, Chairperson, three of those people, I had no knowledge that they were being monitored and I didn't realise that to monitor somebody was unlawful.  Mr Lubowski was monitored within the Republic of South Africa so that we could find out who his contacts were.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who were Mr Lubowski's contacts in South Africa?

EDWARD WEBB: The report-back which we got, nothing, no information could be gathered.

GEORGE BIZOS: So it was a wasted effort?

EDWARD WEBB: A wasted effort.

GEORGE BIZOS: And where the other three also a wasted effort?  But what was the motive?

EDWARD WEBB: I don't know ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: What was the innocent motive?

EDWARD WEBB: How can you ask me when I keep telling you that I don't even know that those people were being monitored?

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone)  Did anyone mention the name of Trevor Tutu to you?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: In connection with what?

EDWARD WEBB: That we wanted to go and place this baboon foetus at his home.

GEORGE BIZOS: Trevor Tutu.

EDWARD WEBB: Sorry, no, I thought you meant Archbishop Tutu.

CHAIRPERSON: This is Trevor Tutu.  The question was, did anyone ever mention Trevor Tutu to you?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Which region had this project?

CHAIRPERSON: The Apie project?

GEORGE BIZOS: The Apie project, the Tutu.

EDWARD WEBB: Currently I know that it was Region 6, when I approved it I didn't know it was Region 6.

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you sure that it was 6 and not 9?

EDWARD WEBB: Slang carried it out and he was Region 6.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, but he says that he was just asked to sort of fill in, but I'll tell you why we're asking this.  According to charge 59 of Mr Wouter Basson, the following is stated ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is this Dr Wouter Basson's current trial?

GEORGE BIZOS: Current trial, on page 243 of Summary of Substantial Facts.
	Perhaps you would like to read paragraphs 1 and 2.  Please read that out into the record.  We won't put it in as an exhibit but I would merely like the witness to read it out into record so that there is no misunderstanding because of my imperfect Afrikaans.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that charge 59, paragraphs 1 and 2?

GEORGE BIZOS: Charge 59.
	Read it aloud please, into the record.

EDWARD WEBB: Paragraph 1
"A Durandt vs S du Toit van der Walt, Co-ordinator of Region 9 of the CCB, had a project named Project Apie.  That entailed that there had to be a certain kind of a spell placed on Archbishop Tutu in a very visible way, so that his supporters had to withdraw their support as a result and that fitted in with the general objectives of the CCB, namely the maximal disruption of the enemy.  This project, like the normal projects of CCB, was handled in the same way as the normal projects of the CCB, as set out above.  After approval, a baboon foetus was required for this project.
Paragraph 2:
"Accused had made this request to RNL, to the laboratories there, that a baboon foetus was necessary for the project.  Dr S Wandrag did a caesarean section on a pregnant baboon and removed two foetuses."

GEORGE BIZOS: What do you say about the evidence upon which that charge is laid against Dr Basson, that it was a Region 9?

EDWARD WEBB: When I approved a project I didn't know whether it was Region 6 or Region 9 who was to carry it out.

GEORGE BIZOS: So it's possible that it was 9, without your knowledge?

EDWARD WEBB: It's possible.