Amnesty Hearings — Vosloorus — 1998-11-24

RONNIE KASRILS: In my application to the Amnesty Committee, which I'm still waiting to be called, I apply for amnesty on the grounds that I in fact participated in providing weapons to the people of the East Rand, of Soweto of the West Rand, of other parts of the country.  I did so as did Robert McBride in order to protect peoples lives in the way that is being described for self defence purposes.  Now it really cannot be equated the question of protection for defence against those who wage war and are prepared to go to absolute extremes in their bloodshed and destruction.  On our part we have admitted to failures on our part to occasions where our people have overstepped the mark and carried out actions which were against policy.  The ANC leadership has accepted responsibility for that and we also ask the TRC to consider the context in which people made those mistakes.

ADV DE JAGER: I've got no problem with that it was in the context of the war situation of that stage.

RONNIE KASRILS: Certainly and I readily would admit to being proud of the fact that I participated in a movement that sought at all times to find a way of protecting people and to do so in an organised and disciplined way.  We preferred peace, we've shown this in fact and Robert McBride is a much maligned citizen of our country, has shown that in fact what had driven him was the quest for peace and justice and freedom so it's very, very different to view the actions of such people as against those who were doing everything possible to prevent change, freedom, peace and justice to come about.  I think it's not correct to view people in the same way, it depends what cause you are serving, what the objective is about.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAKANJEE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, just one question.
	Mr Kasrils, I'd like to refer you to bundle 3 of the document, the application of one Mr Phineas Mpele, it's on page 148, without compromising your amnesty application that is still to be heard.  I would however like your comment on Mr Mpele's allegations.  If you refer to page 149, he states that he infiltrated South Africa under your instructions and then states further that in the post 1990 period during the process of the establishment and the support of the SDU, he was instructed to create DLB's for the defence units in Thokoza, Kathlehong and Soweto and goes on to state that he handed these sketches to yourself.  Do you have any recollection of this incident, would you like to comment?

RONNIE KASRILS: Yes very, very much so.  This is absolutely correct, as he's indicated here and I've got no problem about this whatsoever.  It is the truth.

MS PATEL: Could you just briefly just for the record could you please explain what DLB's were and what the functions were?

RONNIE KASRILS: Yes sure, a DLB stands for dead letter box, it's from the clandestine literature and is common internationally and in an underground struggle it becomes necessary to safeguard the security and secrecy of people and their identities.  It's obviously very risky for me to come and meet you supposing you're a member of the liberation movement or the underground and come to your house and bring you money or a fake passport or a gun or leaflets so we will set up a DLB between each other.  I will take the material and hide it somewhere safe, it could be simply in the hollow of a tree trunk or it could be in a hole in the ground, it could be under a floorboard somewhere and I then get somebody to take a sketch to you or the instructions which indicates to you how to find that weapon or money or material so you then can safely go to take it without the two of us meeting.  So in relevance to what's happened in South Africa, we developed such means in terms of bringing weaponry from outside the country, people would come inside, they would create DLB's and we would later bring the sketch to you as say the organiser of a Soweto MK unit.  You would then be able to receive that material and in the period of the '90 - '94, we in fact had to resort back to some of these methods in order to distribute material.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kasrils, you've been of extreme help, thank you.   We'll adjourn for lunch.
WITNESS EXCUSED
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel are you ready?

MS PATEL: I'm ready Honourable Chairperson.
	Mr Machitje are you ready?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: (s.u.o.)

MS PATEL: Thank you.  Your application that's in the bundle 3 from page 15 onwards, it's not commissioned.  Would you however like to confirm the contents of that application?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes.

MS PATEL: Right, thank you.  You're fully aware of everything that's written in here?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes.

MS PATEL: You stated - just a bit of background - you've states that you were released in 1990.  On what charges were you imprisoned?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: In 1989 on the 14th November I was arrested by security branch.  I was charged for furthering the aims of the ANC and for attacking a house that belonged to a mayor, a former mayor of Thokoza, Mr Matsutsu.

MS PATEL: And where were you trained, what kind of training did you receive?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: As a member of the army I was trained in general military training, that included collection, I was part of the military intelligence of the ANC.

MS PATEL: Okay and for how long were you trained?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: The training took something like four years or five years if I'm not mistaken.

MS PATEL: Okay.  You said that you were instrumental in the formation of the SDU's and that you were a commander, is that correct?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes I was instrumental in the formation of the central command of the SDU and as a senior commander of Thokoza branch, MK commander.  I was not a commander of - a central commander of the SDU's.

MS PATEL: Could you briefly explain to us what your role and function was?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Can you repeat yourself?

MS PATEL: Could you explain to us what your role and function was?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: My role was to co-ordinate.  When I talk of coordination I mean I had to collect whatever information on the ground that the SDU's were doing, the attackers and report it back to the ANC and whatever instruction that I received from head office to the central command I will take it to them.  Basically the kind of work I was doing was that.

MS PATEL: Were you involved in the daily activities of the SDU's?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: You earlier said you are familiar with my application and if you can read that application I state that I was not daily involved with the activities.

ADV DE JAGER: Where in your application do you state that?

MS PATEL: On page 17.  Honourable Committee member, page 17.

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: It's page 17.

ADV DE JAGER: Where you state that you were not daily involved, that the last sentence?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: You never gave instructions for their daily activities?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: You didn't say you're not daily involved?

CHICHELA ESAU MACHITJE: If I may answer that one, I was not responsible for their daily activities.  If I didn't put it on the application then I will just want to state it here I was not responsible on their daily activities.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja, you've stated that you're not responsible for their daily activities but that wouldn't mean that you were not daily involved with them?