Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-29

MS THABETHE: Mr Nyathikazi, according to a statement written by Lindiwe, the girlfriend to the deceased on page 29, she says she saw you, amongst others, and she took note of you because she knew you to be their enemies -  to be enemies with and you were harassing the deceased, Nkosinati Ntuni.  Do you want to respond to that?

DANNYBOY NYATHIKAZI: As a girlfriend, she had lost her loved one so she could very well say anything.

MS THABETHE: And you were not enemies?

DANNYBOY NYATHIKAZI: No, we were not enemies.

MS THABETHE: ...(indistinct)

DANNYBOY NYATHIKAZI: No, I did not.

MS THABETHE: Also I just want to clarify one more factor.  According to Noma Langa in her statement on page 33 of the bundle and Mantombi Ngobane on page 36, they both say that they saw you together with a group, you were all carrying guns, hand guns, yet in your evidence you've stated that you did not carry a gun.  What ...(indistinct - speaking simultaneously)

DANNYBOY NYATHIKAZI: I was not carrying a firearm.  She may have seen us on the street, but it is not true that I was carrying a firearm.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

MS MOHAMED: I have no questions Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOHAMED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you're excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mohamed, are there any other witnesses you're going to call?

MS MOHAMED: No, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, have you got any witnesses to call.

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, it's just the brother of the victim.  I'll just be very brief with him and that's merely to confirm his continued existence with the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Whatever, I mean you can call him.

MR PANDAY: Wiseman Ntuni.

WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: (sworn states)

MR PANDAY: Mr Wiseman Ntuni, what is your relationship to the deceased Zwe Ntuni?

WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: He was my brother.

MR PANDAY: Is it correct that you had deposed to an affidavit for the purposes of the application of Dannyboy Nyathikazi, opposing the application?

WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: That's correct.

MR PANDAY: I'm just showing you pages 26, from page 26 to 27, is that the affidavit that you've deposed to?

WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: Yes, it is.

MR PANDAY: And do you confirm the contents of that to be true and correct?

WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: Yes, I do.

MR PANDAY: Now in the evidence given by the applicant, he alleges that your brother Zwe Ntuni had defected from the ANC.  Can you comment on that evidence?

DANNYBOY NYATHIKAZI: He had not defected, he was still a member of the ANC.

MR PANDAY: And more particularly on the day that he was murdered, was he still a member of the ANC?

WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: Yes, he was.

MR PANDAY: Now in your affidavit in paragraph 4 you mention of there being gangs, Mondo and his gang, now do you know what effect this gang had on your brother, or were there any problems between this gang and your brother?

WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: They were a group of gangsters who used to shoot at one another in the township.

MR PANDAY: When you say:  "They were a group of gangsters), who are you referring to?

WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: I would say all of them belonged to different gangs, because Dannyboy belonged to one group and my brother to another, but this had nothing to do with the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: What kind of gangs were they, tsotsies?

WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Interfered with the community and to fight against each other?

WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: They were fighting amongst one another.

CHAIRPERSON: Nothing to do with politics?

WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: No, it had nothing to do with politics.

MR PANDAY: So at the time your brother, although he was member of the ANC, he was very much involved in a gang, is that correct?

WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: Yes, he was a member of a gang, although he also belonged to the ANC.

MR PANDAY: And the gang that he belonged to was in conflict with other gangs in the area?

WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: No, they were not in conflict.

MR PANDAY: Do you know of any problem that existed between Mondo's gang and his gang?

WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: I do not know what was the problem between them.

MR PANDAY: Now is it correct that you are opposing the application being brought by Dannyboy Nyathikazi?

WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: Yes, I am opposing the application.

MR PANDAY: Can you state the reason for you opposing the application?

WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: Firstly, I would say Mr Nyathikazi has told lies before the Committee.

MR PANDAY: What sort of lies has he told?

WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: That my brother had defected, had become an askari.  What is an askari?

MR PANDAY: What other lies has he spoken?

WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: This re-opens old wounds.

MR PANDAY: We need you to help us, Wiseman.  Can you think of any other lies that's he's given in his evidence?

WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: The lie that my brother was an askari.  Also that he was standing on Road 13.  How could he have seen him?  It is also a lie that my brother was preventing people from canvassing for the elections.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you know that that didn't happen?

WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: How could he do that?  Because he was young, I would have known about it.

MR PANDAY: Now tell me, the area that your brother lived in and the area that the applicant says they were canvassing, what political party dominated the areas?

WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: It was the ANC.

MR PANDAY: Now do you believe that the murder of your brother was politically motivated?

WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: No.

MR PANDAY: Thank you Mr Ntuni, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr
Chairman.  Thank you Mr Ntuni.  Mr Ntuni it has been your evidence that the applicant was part of a criminal gang.  Now it's Mr Nyathikazi's instructions to me that he was never part of any criminal gang, can you comment on that?

WISEMAN BHEKI NTUNI: He is lying.

MS MOHAMED: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MOHAMED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: No questions Mr Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any re-examination Mr ...

MR PANDAY: No, Mr Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Ntuni.  You are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any more witnesses Mr ...

MR PANDAY: Yes, Mr Chairman, we call Mondo Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is that?

MR PANDAY: That is the first accused in the matter, Mr Chairman.  But before we call him, Mr Chairman, could we have a short recess just to confirm with him certain issues?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the point of calling him?

MR PANDAY: Well Mr Chairman, he was the accused ...

MR LAX: We know who he was.  You can rest assured we know who he was.  The Chairperson's question stands.

MR PANDAY: He'll merely verify the sequence of events that took place on the day in question.

CHAIRPERSON: Well has the been put in dispute?

MR PANDAY: It might not be so, it serves no purpose to call him as such.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any other witnesses?

MR PANDAY: No Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, have you got any witnesses?

MS THABETHE: None at all, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the end of the evidence?  Looks like it.  Ms Mohamed, have you got any submissions to make?

MS MOHAMED: Mr Chairman, apart from saying the evidence has been led and the applicant still seeks amnesty, I can't take it any further.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, we don't need to hear you, nor do we need to hear you.

MR PANDAY: No, I will keep quiet Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We'll reserve Judgment in this matter and we'll hand a decision down in due course.

MS MOHAMED: As the Committee pleases.