Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-14

MS SEROKE: Is that all you have to say?  Please give him a
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glass of water.  We have listened to your story. We are going to ask you a few questions, because we have heard that Bimbo and Fanjana and Jingo's parents are here today.  They too are going to tell their stories.  You have given us your story. We are not going to ask whether they are, because we have heard that they are here.  Zandile, when you were arrested in 1985, what did they accused you of exactly?

ZANDILE J MUSI: I was involved in local political structures, residents' organisations, youth congress, I was involved in all those.  That's why they arrested me.

MS SEROKE: After you had recovered from the explosion, and you had gone back home, how did your friends' parents respond and react towards you?

ZANDILE J MUSI: I did not come across them that often.  I only saw them, because I felt guilty. I  also perceived that things are not going too well between the families.

MS SEROKE: Were they blaming you for having taken their children or were they suspecting that you were part of the plot?

ZANDILE J MUSI: I fetched Fanjana from home, I am the one who fetched him.  That's what they said as well.  That I took Fanjana from home and the next thing he is dead.

MS SEROKE: You said that you never explained to them, because you had been avoiding them.  So therefore at the time you were aware that the man that was with Emphraim was Mamasela. Or at what stage did you find out that the man who was driving the Kombi was Mamasela?

ZANDILE J MUSI: I don't understand your question too well.

MS SEROKE: What I am saying is, after you had been injured when did you find out that the Kombi driver that picked you up from Laratong was Mamasela?  When did you receive that
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information?

ZANDILE J MUSI: I heard from Reggie Moraba this year.

MS SEROKE: So what happened to Ephraim who was your contact?

ZANDILE J MUSI: He is a priest in Rustenburg.  I met him coming from Ledach. We met him at Jorda next to (indistinct). I saw him and I recognised him.  Reggie Moraba tried to trace him as I had informed him.  They found him there.  He is a priest in Rustenburg.  They talked to him and he told them that before he talks to them, he wants a human rights lawyer.  They tried to organise the lawyer, they found the lawyer.  I told the lawyer what happened.

MS SEROKE: So how was he involved, what did he say, what is his explanation?

ZANDILE J MUSI: They did not inform me, well, even Reggie himself.

MS SEROKE: In essence did he admit that he tricked you?
Did he admit that he trapped you, saying that he wanted to train you and demonstrate to you how the arms worked?

ZANDILE J MUSI: Yes, he did admit that.

MS SEROKE: Could we perhaps get his address, maybe from the lawyers or the people you are with, so that we too can get a statement from him?

ZANDILE J MUSI: I would be glad if you could contact Reggie Moraba and they will be able to help you.

MS SEROKE: For now, I am going to hand you over to my colleagues to give them a chance to ask you questions, if they so wish.  Dr Randera?

DR RANDERA: I want to come back to your meeting with these three individuals, who you now say is Joe Mamasela, Scarface and Ephraim.  At the time, how did they introduce themselves to you?
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ZANDILE J MUSI: The one that I knew, Ephraim, I knew Ephraim, but Joe Mamasela was a driver, I had never met him before.  It is only Ephraim that I had known prior to the incident. Nobody made any introductions.

DR RANDERA: But when they said that they were going to train you, on whose behalf were they going to be training you?

ZANDILE J MUSI: Mfalapesa, I know him as a comrade, an MK comrade. I thought that he had come to train us so that we could join MK.

DR RANDERA: Where is he now, do you know where he is?

ZANDILE J MUSI: He is in Rustenburg.

DR RANDERA: You say you knew him.  How long did you know him for, as an MK comrade?

ZANDILE J MUSI: He left with my brother in 1976. They went to join MK in 1976. They then came back in 1982, sorry, 1981.

DR RANDERA: I know that that period that we are talking about was a very difficult period.  Now you earlier on spoke about the Kagiso residents association and Cosas.  Were there structures in the community where you could actually go and ask other people and say listen, is this person a trustworthy person or not?  Or did you just accept because he left with your brother, he was okay?

ZANDILE J MUSI: I think when it comes to the issue of structures, Mfalapesa, I thought he was an MK member working underground. Therefore, he could not expose himself. I trusted him.  He also stipulated that we must not expose him because he worked underground.

DR RANDERA: To come back to your arrest in 1985.  In-between, between 1982 when you yourself were injured and these other young people were killed, did you leave the
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country to go for training?

ZANDILE J MUSI: I thought about it, but I did not leave.

DR RANDERA: Because you were charged with handling explosives again and sent to Robben Island.  Where did you get training on the use of explosives?

ZANDILE J MUSI: Here, back home.

DR RANDERA: When did you find out that these people were not ANC operatives?

ZANDILE J MUSI: When I was released from jail in 1982, I phoned my brother in Zambia. I told him what happened. He then told me that Weston was in cahoots with the boers, he was working with the boers.

DR RANDERA: Who is Weston?

ZANDILE J MUSI: Mfalapesa.

DR RANDERA: Mamasela.

ZANDILE J MUSI: I didn't know Mamasela at all.

DR RANDERA: I want to ask one last question.  In the amnesty hearings two or three weeks ago in Johannesburg, the five people who applied for amnesty talked about many of the killings that they were involved in.  Of course, one of the killings was related to these young people from outside Pretoria, who were also killed, almost in a similar incident to yours.  There was also the incident of the young people, I think in the East Rand, who were given the grenade by Joe Mamasela and these were dud grenades and of course, they blew themselves up and many of them were killed and some of them were severely injured.  The article in the newspaper a day after this, raised the question - and I want to actually just, so that you can actually give us your point of view.  An article in a newspaper a day later asked the question:  what were these young people going to do with the grenades
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themselves. So my question to you is:  what were you going to do with the training that you were going to receive, that you were going to be receiving in using these explosives?

ZANDILE J MUSI: We were going to fight the apartheid system.

MS SEROKE: What is your answer?

ZANDILE J MUSI: Should I repeat it?  We were going to fight the apartheid system.

DR RANDERA: If necessary, killing people?

ZANDILE J MUSI: Not necessarily the people.  But I was going to abide by any MK policy.

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much.

MS SEROKE: Mr Manthata?

THOMAS MANTHATA: You and your honourable late friends, where were you in the habit of meeting?

ZANDILE J MUSI: At that time we were going to meet at Loratong.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Even before you got this kind of promise for training, were you in the habit of meeting anywhere with other youths?

ZANDILE J MUSI: Yes, we would meet regularly.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Where would you meet?

ZANDILE J MUSI: In the township.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I ask these questions because you referred to the Faith Mission Church.

ZANDILE J MUSI: We would have meetings regularly there. The meetings would be at the Faith Mission.

THOMAS MANTHATA: At that time who was the Minister of the Faith Mission?

ZANDILE J MUSI: It was Frank Chikane.