Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

CHAIRPERSON: [inaudible] have you got any response to that because I have been given to understand that the statements, and your people have reiterated to me, I was going to raise your point because we  made it this morning, that the statement that you were given is the same statement that our people have, minus the address. Now I didn't want to read it actually because I don't want to appear to be remonstrating.  I don't want to remonstrate.  I have now said that we are going to have to ensure that yourself and your team actually give a receipt for all the statements that they claim they have given you, so that we want to make sure that you do in fact have the statements.  We don't want you or your client to operate under a handicap of any sort, and my information is that the statements were given, and in a sense what you were saying just now, you see, I mean, you speak about the statements not being the same, now how do you do that if you are comparing one statement with a non(?)-existing statement?  Because you say you received the one only now.  I'm a legal person, but I don't want to go into that, what I am saying is I do not want you to operate under any sort of handicap, and I will, I am insisting now that the TRC people make sure that all the documents that they are going to be alluding to will be available to yourself, and that you provide them with a receipt for having been given those statements, but I am pleased that you will in fact go ahead.  I would also say in that it's very difficult to keep, I mean this particular witness has a particular way of speaking, and I would agree that one has to be careful that we are not facetious, but that is in a way the idiom in which he is speaking, and I am not able to - I would probably have to be interrupting him every other sentence.  I note the point you make and would want to say again, I mean, that I do not, none of us here wants at all to have you operating under the disadvantage, 1 of not having the statements, and 2 that serious allegations are made in a flippant manner.  And I would, eBaba [addressing Mr Morgan] the attorney is complaining that some of the things or the serious allegations that you have in your statement, you are saying them in a very jocular manner. Please, if you can, try to, we're not saying you must restrain yourself in any manner, but please when you answer some of the questions, please, you should look quite serious, because these are quite serious allegations.  Do not make them into jokes.

MR SEMENYA: ... stands that the ruling is we would be given copies of actual statements by various witnesses which the TRC seeks to use during the proceedings in this week.
 Mr Morgan, on your own, in your own words, you are a self-confessed liar, is that right?

JOHN MORGAN: You are lying.  It's you who's lying. I'm telling the truth.

MR SEMENYA: You deny that you have confessed to lying?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, I did say that.

MR SEMENYA: You say you have confessed to being a liar?

JOHN MORGAN: No, I'm not a confessed liar, but I did explain that I told lies in order to try and protect Mrs Mandela.

MR SEMENYA: And I understand you are saying that you were not guilty for the assault for which you were convicted by a court of law?

JOHN MORGAN: I never assaulted anyone, I'm talking about myself now, I never assaulted anyone.

MR SEMENYA: ... for assault, were you not?

JOHN MORGAN: That is correct.

MR SEMENYA: And you were given an imprisonment sentence.

JOHN MORGAN: That's correct.

MR SEMENYA: And you're saying today you were convicted incorrectly?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, that's what I'm saying.  Because I had gone to fetch those people. I was the driver.

MR SEMENYA: ... your stay in prison it is correct, is it not, that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela made contributions towards your family?

JOHN MORGAN: No, that's not true.  That's not true. What she did, she assaulted my daughter, she assaulted my daughter on the buttocks. There's no way that she helped my family out.

MR SEMENYA: ... microphone, I can't pick what you're telling us.   You're saying there was no stage when there was assistance given to your family while you were in prison by Mrs Mandela.

JOHN MORGAN: No.  She was helping Jerry Richardson, not me.

MR SEMENYA: Do you remember an interview you had with the City Press people?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, I do.

MR SEMENYA: In particular you had an interview with a Mapule Sibandla. Do you recall that?

JOHN MORGAN: I have just spoken to her recently. Yes, I do remember that one.

MR SEMENYA: And to that interview came Derek Luthanyi.

JOHN MORGAN: Who's that?

MR SEMENYA: And who was with Mapule Sibandla?

JOHN MORGAN: And what did that person say?

MR SEMENYA: Do you remember that?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, I do.

MR SEMENYA: You recall that the interview was scheduled for 14h30?

JOHN MORGAN: Where?  At two, where? Now, at my place or in Orlando?

MR SEMENYA: ... that where was the interview conducted with Mapule Sibanda?

JOHN MORGAN: At my place.  Orlando West, 8060 Migwa Street.

MR SEMENYA: What did you say to her?

JOHN MORGAN: I said I didn't want to comment because if I speak to the press they would print other things or misquote me.  I refused to speak to her.

MR SEMENYA: Were you not confronted about the allegations that you would know where the children were dumped?

JOHN MORGAN: Definitely not. I don't know what you're talking about.

MR SEMENYA: Do you recall that you told them that the information you gave was on a belief that you were going to be given money?

JOHN MORGAN: I said I don't want to speak to any newspaper reporters.  I haven't come to play, I want money.  There are many ways of getting money, so I said if she gives me the money, the money would be mine.

MR SEMENYA: ... that, and this is the essence of what you're saying, you're not going to talk until there's money on the table?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, I did say that.  If you want to get money, you can do that or say that.

MR SEMENYA: Sunday Times pays for your appeal. You then make the plans and you tell them a story.  Is that correct?

JOHN MORGAN: No, I spoke what happened.

MR SEMENYA: What do you mean by making plans to get money?

JOHN MORGAN: To earn a living. I wouldn't go around talking about my life for free.  If people want to know about my life, especially newspaper reporters, I would tell them that they must pay me for my talking.

MR SEMENYA: So now I understand you implicitly. For money you will tell the story, you will not be telling a story unless there's money involved, that's how you make your living?

JOHN MORGAN: No, she never gave me money. I wasn't given any money for that matter.

MR SEMENYA: ... noise outside of the cars, I lost your answer there, sorry.

JOHN MORGAN: I do hear what you're saying, but the fact that I spoke because I received money is not true, I never received any money in return for speaking.  Whoever comes to me and says he wants my story I just say "pay" in order to avoid having to talk.

MR SEMENYA: With the greatest of respect, the type of things you're saying are very, very serious and I think they deserve to be treated with seriousness as well.  Would you agree with me?

JOHN MORGAN: I don't agree with you if you think I'm playing, why do you think I'm playing?  I'm not playing here.

MR SEMENYA: I want to give you a document which emanated from you while you were in prison.  Sorry, I, I - [intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Where is my copy? (laughter)

JOHN MORGAN: This is not my handwriting.

MR SEMENYA: Do you see that letter?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, I do.

MR SEMENYA: Are you referred to as Motho, M-O-T-H-O?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: ... that appears on the second page.  Do you see that?

JOHN MORGAN: Yes, I see what is written here.