Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-15

ANDRE RENIER SWART: The one moved towards Constable Terreblanche, and the other one moved towards me.  They removed our weapons.  The person next to me, took his weapon out his holster.
	At that stage when Constable Terreblanche's firearm was removed, he jumped up and started struggling with the person who was next to him.  Automatically I also jumped up and grabbed the person next to me's hands, but my attention was mostly focused on what was happening between Constable Terreblanche and the other person.
	During the struggle, they switched off the lights and a shot was fired.  I dived away, out of the room.  The room was divided into two sections and I dived into the other section.
	As far as I can recall, two shots were fired.  Approximately 15 to 20 seconds after the shots were fired, everything became quiet.  I crawled back to the room and I found my pistol under the table.  I then cocked it as I said earlier and I moved towards Constable Terreblanche and I asked him whether or not he was all right.
	I touched him, and he moaned.  The light was still out in the room.  I moved out and checked to see if there were still any people or whatever, and I saw or heard a vehicle speeding away.  I rushed to the hand radio which we had at the gate, I couldn't find it, and I went back to my vehicle, climbed into my vehicle and went to the OPS room which was inside the base and there, I informed by Shift Sergeant of what had happened and I moved back to the main gate.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: If anything was said by these two persons when they entered the room, would you have heard it?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, I would have heard it.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Which words were uttered by which person, carrying which arms on them?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: As far as I know the person with the pistol, the one who initially entered the room first, the predecessor, said that we should sit still and that we shouldn't do anything stupid and so forth.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: At any time, did he identify himself as a person belonging to a certain right-wing organisation?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Did he at any stage state that he was looking for weapons or a stockpile location for weapons?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: The person with the .38 who entered the room, was this weapon constantly in his hands when he was in the room?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Did he aim this weapon at you at any stage?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes.  When he was with me, he aimed the weapon at me, when he was moving towards me, and then when he was next to me, he held the gun to my head.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Where did he hold this weapon to your head?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: On the left side of my head, because he was on my left side.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: How far was this person from you when he held the gun to your head?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: He was right next to me.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: How far physically from your head, did he hold the weapon?

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: It was against my head, I wouldn't be able to recall millimetres.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Was this weapon that close to your head that should it have gone off, it would have struck you and killed you?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: No further leading, if there is anything else that you would want to add?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN SCHALKWYK

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Steenkamp, do you have any questions that you wish to pose?

ADV STEENKAMP: No thank you Chairperson, no questions from my side.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Gcabashe?

ADV GCABASHE: Just one question Mr Swart.  How long had this been a police base?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: At the time, we were there for approximately five to six months.

ADV GCABASHE: Was it common knowledge in the area that it was now occupied by the police?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, as far as my knowledge goes, yes.

ADV GCABASHE: And what do you base that on, your knowledge?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: My knowledge, we often drove to Secunda and spoke to the people there, and the Traffic Department often passed by, in other words by word of mouth, they were aware that it was a police base.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Swart, what exactly was the base used for at that point?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: What it was there for?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ANDRE RENIER SWART: The Unit with which I was involved at that stage, was a Mobilisation Unit and what that involved was wherever in the country there were problems, a group of our members would be sent there in order to resolve the situation.
	Devon was initially an ideally centrally situated place instead of being in Pretoria, from where we could be deployed.

CHAIRPERSON: So basically did it accommodate members of your Unit on those premises?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there residences and so forth?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there any weapon stockpiling locations on that premises?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, there was for the event of people being deployed on trips as we called it, they would withdraw weapons from that room.

CHAIRPERSON: What type of weapons did you have, were there any automatic combat guns and such things?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, there were automatic weapons and shotguns and service pistols.

CHAIRPERSON: R1's or R5's?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: R5's, the police use R5's.

CHAIRPERSON: So there were R5's?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: And there were R5's as well, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And R1's?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: R1's, R5's, shotguns, hand weapons?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Those weapons, how were they kept secure, in a safe or somewhere where it was not easily accessible?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, they were in a safe.  Only those individuals who worked for the Weapon Store, certain staff members of the police unit, were involved with the Weapon Store, and that meant that he would be the one who would issue weapons and was responsible for keeping those weapons.
	It was kept in a safe and locked.

CHAIRPERSON: That guard house in which you and Mr Terreblanche were, why was it there?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: It was basically a room with a table and a chair in which those people who had to open and close the gates for staff who were moving in and out, could sit.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, was it something like a small house at the entrance?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: With the gate or a boom?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, it was a boom.

CHAIRPERSON: Which you would open and close for those moving in and out?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you would then take note of those moving in and out?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: That only came later.

CHAIRPERSON: You were not near any weapon safe or a place where weapons could be stored?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No the Weapon Store was inside the base, near the Admin offices.

CHAIRPERSON: If one were to arrive at those premises, it would be clear that that little house had to do with the boom, it was for those who were controlling the boom?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, I would say that.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words the guards who controlled the access to the premises?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there any buildings near the guard house?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No, the nearest buildings were approximately 50 metres away from the guard house.

CHAIRPERSON: It would be clear that you were not guarding the building, you were actually controlling access to the premises?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, one could accept that.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't patrol or any other such duties?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that why you had the side weapons?

ANDRE RENIER SWART: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: When those two persons entered the guard house, did they order you to hand over your weapons?