Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietersburg — 1996-07-19

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you Mr Rasethaba, besides being the public secretary of SACCAU, were you a community leader?

MR PHOKELA: Yes I was a community leader.  There were bus boycotts, the first bus boycott in Seshego.  I was involved.  In 1982/83/84, I was a member of the Seshego Action Committee as one of the leaders of the community.

THOMAS MANTHATA: When you were a community and youth leader, the harassment which you experienced by the police  ...(indistinct)

MR PHOKELA: This harassment, as I've explained, while I was still underground, I explained to the workers that they should know their rights.  Every time when May Day arrives I used to be visited by SB's.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Tell me Rasethaba, I'm talking about the harassment by the police, the specific harassment which ...(indistinct)?

MR PHOKELA: Could you please repeat the question?

THOMAS MANTHATA: You say, when you were harassed they said you were harassing the police.

MR PHOKELA: I can explain, they were trying to stop the peoples' rights, meaning they wanted us not to have the freedom of holding meetings. I think they regarded our meetings as harassment.

THOMAS MANTHATA: So the harassment that they are talking about were your meetings, were you not burning the houses?

MR PHOKELA: No they were in fact the ones who were burning the comrades' homes. On the same day when they arrested me they burned three homes.

THOMAS MANTHATA: When they assaulted you, you say there were about 30 policemen, is that an estimation, or were you still conscious and you counted them at that time?

MR PHOKELA: No it was in the dark, I'm just estimating.

THOMAS MANTHATA: After that do you say they put you in a cell with other people or were you isolated.

MR PHOKELA: They put me in a cell with other comrades, as I already explained, one of them is the one who is sitting next to me.

THOMAS MANTHATA: You said in your statement that your child also was harassed or assaulted? Why was she actually assaulted?

MR PHOKELA: Firstly when they came to my house they used to jump my security fence, they never knocked or waited for me to unlock the door, they just kicked them and the kids' bedroom doors, guns in hand.  Even if I'm not an expert, I think that affected my kids very much, because sometimes when they sleep they have nightmares.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What are you saying, that they were affected by the harassment or by the threats from the police, not that they were beaten?

MR PHOKELA: Yes it' so.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you.

RUSSELL ALLY: In your oral testimony you spoke about policemen who had their houses burned. Was this the case, did policemen actually have their houses burned in Seshego?

MR PHOKELA: Yes it did happen, I know so and I also know their houses which were burned.

RUSSELL ALLY: Have you got any idea who was responsible for this?

MR PHOKELA: Yes I know, those policemen who were on duty that day, we know them.

RUSSELL ALLY: In your statement you say that there was an out of court settlement, and you were paid R6 000.  Now who made this out of court settlement, who are the people who paid you this R6 000?

MR PHOKELA: I tried very hard to continue with the case and there came a stage where were told that the then representatives, the lawyers suggested that we could arrange out of court settlements during the NP-government time, so I heeded to their advice that we could arrange an out of court settlement.  I actually wanted  R60 000 by them, I don't know how much it is when we value it today, but they could only give me what I told you in the statement, R6 000.

RUSSELL ALLY: And this was by the South African Police or the Lebowa Police, who was responsible, do you know?

MR PHOKELA: That's not long, I was given the money during the time of this new government. It's the Department of Justice in Pretoria, supposedly.

RUSSELL ALLY: When was this, the date, can you tell us when did this happen?

MR PHOKELA: This happened in 1994, unfortunately I forgot the paper in the car.  I have the papers, I'll show them to you later.

RUSSELL ALLY: What are you doing now, because before you said you were a trade union organiser, what's your present status?

MR PHOKELA: I sell tomatoes with my car and other vegetables to other people.  Besides that I'm still continuing helping people of the community with advice where they need it and where they need development.  I sometimes refer them to the donors or people who can help them.

RUSSELL ALLY: The last question from me, what do you hope to achieve from this testament to the Truth Commission?

MR PHOKELA: That I am still prepared in fact, as I feel that I have revived myself and I feel that I'm still energetic, if only I could be given the chance to share the vast practical experience as an organiser for the unorganised, and again to revive, to bring more or to establish more projects for self reliance and to bring back ...(indistinct) to our people that will be able to improve the worsened unemployment and the imbalance in the socio-economic situation in our people. I do not like to be a beggar, I believe that if people help themselves they can also help others.
 Those police who are still working who are injuring the fruits and benefits of our liberation, those who are in senior positions today, those who don't want to come forward and become witnesses.  I say to them, please come before this Commission and come and speak the truth in front of the people.  Don't try to make yourselves animals and hide yourselves like tortoises because you are known.  So if the Commission wants a list of those police who are still at work now, I don't want to stop the process of your investigation, I'm prepared for security reasons to come and give you the names of those who did all these things.  Thank you.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you, thank you very much.

MR MALAN: We will certainly be available for  further information.  If you have anything that you need to give us, you can give it to any of the statement-takers or the contact persons here, they will arrange it.  Piet, do you have any questions?
 Thank you very much, we have no further questions.  If you have other information, please send it to our office, we can get it from you.

MR PHOKELA: Thank you.