Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-09-28

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, I wouldn't say it was that, it was very serious and Joe Verster asked me a number of questions.  The details of which I cannot recall, and he was satisfied, and he said that I could go ahead, but that it was a matter of urgency and at a later stage, I was told that even if I had to penetrate the house, the operation had to be executed, because a number of days had gone by, and I might have to penetrate the house.
	They were afraid that Dr Webster could do something which could cause irreparable damage to the country, and to that I refer to the thing that he discovered in the Kosi Bay vicinity.  It was very emphatically conveyed to me that either he was going to make a presentation on this before the United Nations or there would be a report, but there was some or other rumour or information to this effect, and this had to be stopped.
	It was the same with all the other projects, with the exception that the pro forma wasn't exactly the same as it was with the other members.  It didn't function exactly the same way.

MR WESSELS: Did they tell you that this was an extremely important person who enjoyed a high profile?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Chairperson, to a reasonable extent, I had knowledge of Dr Webster.  This was due to information that I had acquired prior to the incident, I read much about activists and their activities.  I read press reports such as the reports in the Weekly Mail, the Vrye Weekblad, the New Nation and so forth.  In this way I picked up a lot.
	There were also quite a number of advertisements which were placed regarding meetings of organisations such as NUSAS and I knew about Dr Webster, although I didn't know precisely how high his profile was.

MR WESSELS: But by nature of the instruction that Joe
Verster was personally going to be involved in, and Lafras Luitingh and with regard to Dr Webster's profile, you must have thought that it was a very important instruction?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: And a very sensitive instruction?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, any project would be sensitive.

MR WESSELS: Naturally.  And that the greatest measure of secrecy would be at the order of the day?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Because if anything were to leak out to the organisation, it would have enormous repercussions, not only for your organisation, but for the government?

FERDINAND BARNARD: And for me, that is correct.

MR WESSELS: And for you?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, that is correct.

MR WESSELS: But for Mr Verster and for Mr Luitingh it would have held the same implications as for you, and perhaps a little more serious?

FERDINAND BARNARD: If they were identified, yes.

MR WESSELS: Did they give you any specific instructions regarding your modus operandi or was that left to your own discretion, could you act according to the circumstances?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, they left it up to my discretion.  But I foresaw that the most suitable place was the one way street because it had its down sides with the observation, but it definitely had its up side for the execution of the operation, because one could not be physically observed from the front, or at least from the direction in which one would go after having committed the deed.

MR WESSELS: And did you interpret your instruction as that you had to act alone?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes, that was my interpretation and I don't think that they would have approved if I was involved and I implicated somebody else, as I did with Calla Botha.

MR WESSELS: Yes.   You received the instruction to shoot Dr Webster with a gun?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Was there a decision at that point regarding which sort of firearm would be used?

FERDINAND BARNARD: If I have it correctly, a shotgun was to be used according to the proposal that I made because I had access to a shotgun and I also thought that in that vicinity, if you shot someone, even if it was only one shot, it could be confused with the sound of a vehicle back-firing.
	It was also an effective murder weapon, a shotgun, if loaded with the correct bullets, would have the same effect as an 8mm or a 9mm gun.

MR WESSELS: Did you tell them to provide you with a firearm or did you have your own firearm that you could use?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I stated that I had weaponry at my disposal.  I had an assortment of shotguns, six or seven at that stage, if I can recall correctly.

MR WESSELS: Did you tell them that you would be making use of a shotgun with a sawn-off butt?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I cannot recall that I said that, it is possible that I said so.  I did not have a sawn-off shotgun at that point, I especially modified one for this project and at the same time, or shortly afterwards, I arrived at George Mitchell's house and at first he gave me a Tokarev pistol, because we shared a passion for weapons.
	We looked at the magazine in his bar, where there were various firearms and then he fetched a nickel-plated Tokarev and he got hold of this firearm somewhere abroad.  He showed me the modifications and then he went to fetch the shotgun, a shotgun that he had in his cupboard.  It was a licensed shotgun, but a nice short shotgun.  When I saw the shotgun, it triggered the thought in my mind that this would be the ideal shotgun, the ideal size and everything.
	I think within a day or two subsequently I departed to a farm on the South Coast and I went to practice shooting with the gun.

MR WESSELS: You went to practice?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Yes.

MR WESSELS: You returned and you were satisfied that you could accurately fire the gun?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

MR WESSELS: Did you see Verster or Luitingh again before the day of the murder?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, not that I can recall.

MR WESSELS: How long after your return from the South Coast did you shoot Dr Webster?

FERDINAND BARNARD: It was shortly afterwards.

MR WESSELS: What is shortly afterwards?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I cannot recall, I cannot tell you.  I gave George Mitchell's shotgun back to him, and it may have been within 10 days or two weeks that the job was done.  I cannot affix myself to times, because I don't know.

MR WESSELS: What was the lapse of time between the meeting when you received the instruction to kill Dr Webster and the day upon which you indeed killed him?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I cannot tell you because I don't know whether it was March or April and I don't know when in March or April it would have been, I cannot determine that, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking three days or 20 days?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, more than three days, Chairperson.  Along with the observation and everything, I really cannot tell you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wessels, can I just ask one question, did you use George Mitchell's shotgun to ...

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, no.

CHAIRPERSON: You just practised with it?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I practised with it, because I saw that it was approximately the size which I would be able to handle well in a vehicle.  I had a standing invitation at the farm on the South Coast, I have visited these friends of mine on the South Coast before.

CHAIRPERSON: So you practised with the short shotgun and then you thought it was okay, then you went to your own stock and got a shotgun and sawn-off the barrel?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Amongst other modifications?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I shortened the barrel and I attached a pistol grip.

CHAIRPERSON: Your shotgun, was that a licensed shotgun?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No sir.

CHAIRPERSON: The one that you used?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get that from?