Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1998-01-28

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: I only heard of that, I cannot confirm it.  I don't have any access to those sources in that field.

MR VALLY: Would you not assume if there was such serious allegations against a prominent activist, that there would be some kind of operation planned wherein you can get more information about the issue?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: That is possible yes.

MR VALLY: This was primarily your task, this is primarily why your Unit existed.  Surely this would be primarily what they would be doing?  They would be identifying people who would be helping out MK cadres who came back into the country.  Why do you say possible, isn't it probable that it would happen?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: Because I want to refer to Colonel Kritzinger's remarks.  The investigation unit was at that stage busy with investigations in co-operation with the anti-insurgents component.
 I had been already  transferred to another front and because of limited manpower, I could not do everything.  That I had done, I had to finish off and then I left Soweto in 1987.

MR VALLY: You say that you were involved in more covert activities.  Can you give us some details of these covert activities you were involved in?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: This is very important for any informant  when you infiltrate military components, to look at the person's security operational background and this led at the end of the day, to the fact that we also became more covert within the Branch in order to protect the identities of these persons.
 I think that is only right.  I would like to ...(tape ends) ...

MR VALLY: ... a  Security Branch member?  Did you know him?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: I was at that stage no longer in Soweto.  I understand he was a junior member, a new member and I had no physical contact with the member concerned.

MR VALLY: As the handler of an informer, did you give him any training?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally, are you going to finish now please?

MR VALLY: I will be no more than five minutes Mr Chairman.
 Paragraph 5, your last sentence, you state you are aware that there were a large number of different sources of information regarding Mrs Madikizela-Mandela from a wide variety of people.  This is how I understand what you are saying.  Is that correct?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: Yes.

MR VALLY: The Security Branch had lots of information about the activities of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela from these sources, did they not?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: I would say primarily the Branch's capacity was primarily seated in the tapping of her telephone lines.

MR VALLY: And so you would be aware of whatever happened in her household that she spoke about on the telephone?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: To an extent, yes.

MR VALLY: You would be aware of also any other bugging devices that were connected via her telephone but not solely dependent on the telephone being used?  Do you understand my question?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: Yes, but I can't comment because I did not have anything to do with the technical part or the implementing of that aspect.

MR VALLY: Were you ever instructed or were you aware of any Security Branch person ever being instructed to go easy on Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?  You heard Mr Kritzinger say that one  did not approach Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, one handled her very carefully - he was even frightened to take a statement from her.
 Were you aware of any such express of implicit instruction?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: No.

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Coetzee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  That was actually less than five minutes, I congratulate you warmly.  Are there any questions, Mr Richards?  In each case, just to help us, even though we know who you are, if you would state the name for the record please.

MR RICHARDS: Thank you Chairperson, Tony Richards.  Sir, I have great difficulty in understanding what you are saying.  I am having difficulty in understanding what you are saying.
 From what you have said, I gather that you didn't get any information about the goings on at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house, is that correct?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: This is not the field of work.  This Unit worked day and night, we worked on underground structures of which Mrs Mandela did not part of our focus point, and one must keep in mind that we had limited manpower.

MR RICHARDS: Thank you.  Now, if you didn't get the information as the person responsible for the information and intelligence gathering, who did?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: As I have already pointed out, there were specific persons as far as I know, who monitored her activities closely and who would also have been responsible to ensure that her activities were monitored, but the fact that the Soweto Security Branch used technical aids, is an indication to me personally that there was a lack of access and I want to go so far as to say that the Soweto Security Branch and the involved members, whom I have already identified, did not really have access to Mrs Mandela and the people surrounding Mrs Mandela.
 That is why we used the technical aids.

MR RICHARDS: But who physically received the information, analyzed it and processed it, there must be a name to that person?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: Two persons, Colonel de Jager and Bosman.

MR RICHARDS: Thank you, no further  questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please go ahead.

MR HUGO: Thank you Mr Chairman, maybe I must just put myself on record, I am Schalk Hugo from the firm Solomon Nicolson Rein & Verster, and I am acting on behalf on Eugene Alexander de Kock, and I have no questions for this particular witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Any other questions.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Mgojo?

KHOZA MGOJO: Thank you sir.  I have to ask questions because some of the documents here are in Afrikaans, I don't understand Afrikaans.  You must bear with me.
 As a matter of logic here really, when you tap somebody's phone, you want to achieve something.  And of course you have already said that Mama Mandela was not, could not be touched,  you could not even access to her and so you had to use the technical aids.
 My main question is did this technical aids achieve anything with respect to the security of the country which you wanted to monitor?

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: Mr Chairman, I was not involved in the motivation to obtain authorisation in order to tap her phone or to place any other instrument.  I have already pointed out to the Committee that I did not monitor her activities personally as a result of a great deal I had to to at another terrain.
 The persons who could comment on the contribution from the technical view point, would only be the information management and the Commanding Officer of the Information component.

KHOZA MGOJO: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp?

MR KEMP: Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: This is an important question that you should have asked earlier, I will give you leeway now, but not again.

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  It has just been pointed out to me that in response to Mr Richards' question, Mr Coetzee's microphone was off and it is important that that be put on record.
 The question was, which police Officers would have had overall coordination of information which came in and although Mr Coetzee did answer that question, it wasn't on record.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just repeat those two names Mr Coetzee, that you gave us earlier.

WILHELM JOHANNES COETZEE: Colonel de Jager and Colonel Bosman, that I want to add he was a technical man and the last man, the Investigative Commanding Officer.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Vally for your help.

MR VALLY: The name please of the last person.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have the name of the last person?