Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-10-21

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.  Today we have two applications on the roll and I believe I will be starting with the application of Mr M.R. Ndlovu.  Before we start with this application, I'd just like to introduce the panel to you.  On my right is Mr Jonas Sibanyoni who is an attorney from Pretoria, member of the Amnesty Committee.  On my left is Mr Ilan Lax who is also an attorney but from Pietermartizburg and a member of the Amnesty Committee and I am Selwyn Miller, a Judge from the Eastern Cape and attached to the Transkei Division of the High Court.  I'd like the legal representatives please to place themselves on record.

MR DE KLERK: Thank you Mr Chairman, my name is Lourens de Klerk, I appear on behalf of the applicant, an attorney Lourens de Klerk Attorneys in Durban.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, J. Mpshe for the Amnesty Committee, I will be appearing for the victims who unfortunately could not be traced and there is only one victim here, the next of kin, the mother to the deceased, Mrs Buyaleni Joanna Ngobo.  She could not be found anywhere according to the record.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, but attempts were made to trace her?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Attempts were made Mr Chairman, I even have with me the 19/4 which could not be served.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr de Klerk?

MR DE KLERK: Thank you.  I call the applicant to testify, I think he may just be sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Ndlovu do you have any objection to taking the oath?

M R NDLOVU: Before I start I would like to apologise to the members of the family...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Ndlovu, we are not getting any translation coming through the mikes, the earphones.
I might just say to people in the gallery that these proceedings will be translated into English and Zulu and to benefit from the translation you need one of these sets.  Yes, it sounds better now. 
	Mr Ndlovu do you wish to take the oath or do you wish to make an affirmation?
M. R. NDLOVU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ndlovu.  Mr de Klerk?

MR DE KLERK: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Ndlovu, will you briefly explain to the Commission how you got involved in politics?

M R NDLOVU: I would like to give thanks for the opportunity granted to me as well as the Chair and the Committee.  Before I get to this issue, I would like to say a few words to the members of the family who lost their beloved because of the incident I was involved in.  I would like to apologise for what happened during the conflicts in Pietermaritzburg.  I pass my sincerest apologies even though that may not help them because they have already lost their loved ones.	I would like the Committee to help me in conveying my apologies to them.
	I first got involved in politics in 1987 when I resided at Pietermaritzburg at Mpumuza area.  That is where I joined the IFP.  We would attend meetings in the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Ndlovu, sorry to interrupt you.  Whatever you're saying is being translated simultaneously by the translators and it's very difficult when you're speaking fast for them to keep up with you.  So if you could just speak a little bit slower so you could make their task easier.  Thank you.

M R NDLOVU: Yes.  Thank you.

MR LAX: Did you say you were from the Mpumuza area?

M R NDLOVU: Yes the Mpumuza area.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may continue.

M R NDLOVU: I joined the IFP in 1987, January 6th.  I resided at the Mpumuza location at Pietermartizburg, that is where I was born.

M R NDLOVU: There was a time when people joined the IFP during 1987 in the area and I was one of those people who joined the IFP because my family were also members of the IFP and I liked their organisation.  We then attended a few meetings and I took part in those meetings.  That is how I joined the IFP.  Even today I'm still a member of the IFP.  In 1991, during between January and March of that year, there was conflict in Pietermaritzburg between members of the ANC and the members of the IFP and their supporters.  That was in the Kaluza area in Pietermartizburg.  With regards to Mpumuza, the Kaluza people wanted to absorb this area and make it ANC stronghold but the Mpumuza area was an IFP stronghold therefore this conflict started between the ANC and the IFP, that is between the two areas, Mpumuza and Kaluza.  The ANC was very strong in attacking the Mpumuza area, they will be coming from Kaluza and other areas like Ashtown and attacking that area because they wanted to make that area, Mpumuza, an ANC stronghold.

MR DE KLERK: Mr Ndlovu, can you go a little bit slower, even myself, I find it difficult to write down what you are saying, so please go a little bit slower, please?

M R NDLOVU: Okay.

MR DE KLERK: Okay go ahead?

M R NDLOVU: During the course of that conflict there were attacks on Mpumuza where we resided.  This conflict between Mpumuza and Kaluza and Mpumuza was where I was born and bred and that's where I also joined the IFP.  We realised that the conflict had gained momentum and we did not understand what was going on at Kaluza.  We later discovered that they had acquired weapons to attack Mpumuza to actually turn it around into an ANC stronghold.  We discovered that somebody was behind all of this.  There was a man supplying ANC with weapons to attack the Mpumuza area, that is where I stayed.  Some person who had fled Mpumuza to Kaluza and Mr Sibonelo Dlamini gave us information that at Kaluza there is somebody who supplies weapons for them to go attack the Mpumuza area and this person apparently worked at one of the police stations in Durban, that is in kwaMashu and that was the person who was helping the people in Kaluza to attack Mpumuza so that Mpumuza can become an ANC stronghold.  We then met and we discussed this issue.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say "we" who are you talking about?  When you say "we met and we discussed the issue"?

M R NDLOVU: It was with my brother, my elder brother, who was an IFP, Youth Chairperson, Mr Tabani, who is now deceased.  We met and discussed with Tabani and we discussed the information given to us by Sibonelo Dlamini, that these people were now being assisted in attacking us by somebody meeting at a police station in kwaMashu.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Ndlovu, you mention a name Dlamini, what was his other name?

M R NDLOVU: Sibonelo Dlamini.

MR LAX: And who else was with you?  You say "we" so was it just you and Tabani and Sibonelo are were there others present as well?

M R NDLOVU: It was myself and Tabani at my home because Tabani was the leader of the Youth of the IFP organisation and he was a guard of IFP leaders in the area.  He used to work in the former ZP force.

MR LAX: At that time was he a policeman or was he just a special constable or what was he?

M R NDLOVU: He was a constable at the time.

MR LAX: So he was a proper constable trained at Ulundi etc.

M R NDLOVU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes continue?