Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-03-03

CHAIRPERSON: At the meeting that was called by Buthelezi, I think you mentioned that the Bulelwa Ziwane was also present.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, that's true.

CHAIRPERSON: Did she speak at that meeting?
...[End of tape b, day 2 - no follow-on sound]

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: ...[no sound]

CHAIRPERSON: ...[no sound] Buthelezi.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: All that Bulelwa was concerned about was that she wanted to know about the existing defence unit
as to why it was necessary to form the second one and wouldn't they want some help some the existing one because already in Block F we are under Zongezizwe.

CHAIRPERSON: And was she given the answer?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: It was said that since she was a woman she should keep her mouth shut.

CHAIRPERSON: The other members of the SDU who were present, did they say anything?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Those were the ones who where withdrawn from the whole thing and it was said their problems were known.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are you talking about now?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I'm talking about Moses and Themba Mtshali and the two that did not apply for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they withdraw from the SDU?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: They withdrew at that particular meeting not from the existing one, the SDU.

CHAIRPERSON: What did the meeting resolve?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: What did the meeting resolve?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I would like to say to you Mr Chairman, even though it was suggested that the self-defence unit should be formed that we did not know about at all, it went on because first of all the two members who are applying for amnesty, when they brought this report to us we tried to know as the members of the existing defence unit as to whether what was happening.  After we requested a meeting it was apologised and withdrawn.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you present at that meeting?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I was present at the meeting.

MR MADASA: So you are saying, after this Buthelezi meeting another meeting was convened, is that what you say?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That's the meeting I'm referring to.  After we heard about the formation of the new defence unit we tried to find as much information as possible as to why this was being done.

MR MADASA: When Buthelezi made the call for the formation of a new SDU, was the ANC Youth League still part of your SDU.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: The ANC Youth League was already separated from us.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that when the decision was made to form this new SDU the ANC Youth League had already broken away from the SDU which was patrolling in Moleleki?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: That is true.

MR MADASA: So, was Buthelezi therefore inviting the ANC Youth League members who had separated themselves from you to form a new SDU?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I would like to say to you Sir, I don't know whether he was inviting them or he was already done with them because more times than not, as my co-accused Motlokwa had earlier explained, there was that division.  	There were so many people residing in different areas just like - who were not there and some were ANC Youth League who were in block F.

MR MADASA: But what you have said is that at that meeting which was about a formation of a new SDU, your members were not accepted to become part of the new formation?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, that's what I said.

MR MADASA: Alright.  Now, do you know of incidents that the ANC Youth League - I'm speaking now after it had separated ways with you, do you know of any incidents in particular that they were involved which you did you not ...[intervention]

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, I do, I do know.

CHAIRPERSON: What name did they give to themselves?  Were they also called self-defence unit?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: It was the self-defence unit because it was formed under the name of forming the SDU community.

CHAIRPERSON: They did not have a different name to distinguish them from the SDU which had been in existence in Moleleki?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I don't have recollection to that effect.

MR MAPOMA: Through you Mr Chairperson, was it possible for the community to be aware that there were now two groups, those SDU's which were recently formed and the SDU's which were initially formed?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: With regard to your question, it was amazing, the whole thing because there was already an SDU in place and there was another one that was about to be formed so the whole thing was just surprising.  And why would that be done, we all had that question.

MR MAPOMA: But was an ordinary person in the street able to see that there are now two forces in place?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, although I may not confirm

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR MOTATA: Mr Sonti, now we know that the SDU's formed between yourselves and the ANC Youth League used to patrol, do you bear knowledge whether those that belonged to Buthelezi also patrolled?  For instance, let's confine ourselves to Moleleki section or the various components which fell under Moleleki section.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: According to what was happening, although Moleleki Section 2 had six blocks or sections, although there was no-one who was nominated or elected not to protect others but from block F the patrol should have been in place but - although they were forming the second defence unit, it wasn't supposed to patrol block F only because SDU units that was in existence was already patrolling from block A right up to block F.

MR MOTATA: Do you bear knowledge whether they did in fact patrol any other area?   Do you have such knowledge?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes, I do bear knowledge because of the following reasons:  After the self-defence unit and the Youth League was divided they once brought an opinion that even though we are between Zongezizwe and Kwesini hostel these two areas are predominantly Inkatha.  They felt that they will occupy and most of the time patrol in Kwesini and they asked us to be in block F where - because block F was next to Zongezizwe.

MR MOTATA: If I may now ask you, we know that the incident we are here about occurred on the 6th and 7th of December 1993 and we have heard as well that there was bad blood between ANC Youth League, that they eventually separated, could you probably give us an indication when the two, that is the SDU's and the ANC Youth League separated, more or less?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I will want to go back to the time when I arrived at Moleleki Extension 2, would you allow me to do that?

MR MOTATA: If it would be of assistance, yes.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Thank you very much.  Sir, in Moleleki Extension 2 I arrived on the 1st of June 1993, I was from Seloma.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sonti, I think what the member wants to know is, do you know the date approximately when this separation occurred?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: I may not confirm the date but more or less it could have been in September after we buried comrade Atwell Kabanjane, Mavuso Kabanjane of Ramkunope East.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be September 1993?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just make sure I understand this.  There was a meeting between the old and the new SDU in terms of which it was agreed that the new SDU would confine their patrol in block F?

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: Please listen attentively.  This ANC Youth League was formed by Mr Buthelezi.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that.  I want to know about the agreement relating to the areas of patrol for the different units.

ZOLA NXEBA MICHAEL SONTI: ANC Youth League brought this suggestion and we did not quite accept that.  And as I've already told you about Kwesini and Zongezizwe, they decided to patrol block A and we should patrol towards block F.