Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-28

DR RANDERA: My last question is related to the statement that was released in February 1989.  You two seemed to have become centrally related to that statement, although both of you said that both Elija Pahai as well as Archie Gomede, were involved in the making of that statement, but we also heard yesterday about the Crisis Committee and how the members of the Crisis Committee came from the mass democratic movement.
 When making that statement, were they also party to that statement, how wide was that statement, did it come from a few people?

MURPHY MOROBE: At the time of the making of the  statement, I mentioned in fact in my input yesterday, that people were at the end of their tether in terms of this particular problem.  We have just had the pronouncement and confirmation of Stompie Seipei as being in fact the person whose body was discovered, now the tension has begun.
 At that time also my recollection is that even the Crisis Committee had begun to throw its arms up in the air, in despair at not being able to resolve this issue because of the reports surrounding even the Football Club, because the youth congresses, they were saying they were sick and tired now of this thing and they are going to engage with the Football Club and for us, we had to make a very quick decision how we go about resolving this issue.
 On that evening, the evening of the 15th, there was actually a meeting at Ipeleheng in (indistinct), where this issue was discussed, where people had come together to say, I think the 15th was the day after the Stompie body confirmation.
 Now, we then had to make a decision because I mean, as I say that we had all the role leadership responsibility, assessing the situation and the mood, and the one thing we couldn't afford at that time, was to have a situation where amongst our own people, or people who have believed that they are in the same movement, to end up in conflict, precisely because one of the things people were saying was what is the leadership doing, why can't it do something about its problems?
 You know, we needed some direction, what is going to happen?  Now, the question is what do you do at that point in time, because our assessment then was that having isolated the (indistinct) at least as we perceived it then, has been around Mrs Mandela, having got hold of the reports from the Crisis Committee, etc, and for us in fact at that time, taking a look at it politically, it was clear I mean if one looks at all, I mean in our statement, nowhere does it suggest that Mrs Mandela, did this to Stompie or did that.
 We actually talk about complicity.  Now it was difficult for us to cast any direct evidence.  Now, you would tell me if in all of these events that were happening, around her homestead, you would need to have been, even Rip van Winkel I think, would have woken up.  
 Now, the point for me is that we took the decision because we felt there was a sense in which someone in a responsible position, could have done something and for us then, it was an incisive and decisive decision.  It had a shock element in it as well, because of the person involved and I think that it was also meant to convey a message down stream, that at least our movement can take its position on these matters, even if the person involved is in fact of a senior disposition.

DR RANDERA: Mr Morobe, just one last.  Is it fair to assume the fact that Elija Bagai put his stamp of approval to the statement, that he was speaking on behalf of the Trade Union movement or was he just speaking on his own behalf?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Mr Chairperson, it is fair to assume that - it is a pity Mr Bagai is no longer with us - but it is fair to assume, in fact in my estimation and in my recollection of events, in fact it is a correct reflection that he represented in fact the labour movement, because even the Cosatu shop stewards were quite significantly involved in the issues at the Dobsonville meeting and subsequent encounters, around this issue.
 Even before the statement issued, there was a time problem obvious, in terms of having to move fast, but in the way in which we operated, we were able to actually round up most, in fact, of the leadership of the mass democratic movement organisations, in and around the PWV area even at the press conference where this statement was presented, they actually were there.
 They were not with me on the podium, but they were part of the presentation of the statement, hence even in the subsequent period, the United Democratic Front which were able to convene secretly, was able to endorse that position.

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS HASSEN: Thank you Chairperson.  My first question is directed towards Mr Morobe, it is about what you say in number 9, where you say however, amongst some of us in prison at that time, serious reservations were being expressed about whether the Mandela United Football Club would be able to maintain direction.
 I was just interested in this whether there were issues which you were of concern, it came as a contradiction, especially from you having had confidence in the leadership of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

MURPHY MOROBE: Chairperson, Diepkloof prison was in the context of the state of emergency, was a meeting point of activists of all over, you know the PWV who got brought there to be detained under the state of emergency.
 And there were many of the young people that came from some of these areas, and these issues were discussed.  In fact the question of the team, because as I mention that one of the things we used to do was to have political discussions, to actually evaluate a lot of things including amongst other things, the question of initiatives like this, which arose in our discussions and the point here I am trying to make, is that it therefore becomes of interest. 
 I said that an initiative like this is to be welcomed, because you always think what are the best ways to organise young people and we have found that amongst other things, it is sport, recreation, etc, so the notion of a Football Club is fine, but this was clear that this became a notion of a Football Club which eventually turned into something more than just the playing of soccer.
 Now, the question for us was who were these people who were in the Football Club?  You know, what structures did they belong to, because as things turned out later, there were actually conflicts even between them and members of the youth congress in the area.
 So now those in fact were real concerns that we had established out of our own understanding of how the structures and the situation arise and how it is important to constantly find ways of trying to integrate them and make their own conduct consistent with that of the movement.