Human Rights Violation Hearings — Krugersdorp — 1996-11-14

PROF MEIRING: He stayed with your cousin and all the news you received was from the cousin, who afterwards told you about the things he did.

MRS PHADI: Yes, he sought hiding at my cousin's place, but the person who managed to talk to him was my elder brother.

PROF MEIRING: So the family had access to him, he spoke to the elder brother.

MRS PHADI: Yes, it is so, my brother had communications with him.

PROF MEIRING: What did he tell your brother, what did he do?  Did he study, did he go to all the countries he wanted to or did he spend much of his time in South Africa involved in military operations?

MRS PHADI: Please repeat your question.

PROF MEIRING: He spoke to your brother.  Did he tell your brother what he had been doing for the past five years?

MRS PHADI: All those things he told to my cousin.  My brother just had a brief discussion with him.  But most of the time he was with my cousin at my aunt's place.  He spent most of the time with my cousin.
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PROF MEIRING: From your cousin you got the impression that he was very active, he was planting bombs and he was busy with all sorts of operations.

MRS PHADI: That is what my cousin told me, that he would accompany him in planting these bombs at night.

PROF MEIRING: At a certain stage he left your cousin's house.  Was there trouble between them when he left the house or was it just for his own safety that he left?

MRS PHADI: When he left my cousin's place, it is because his sister in Mopapane told him that he must go; if he doesn't go she will call the police.  Thereafter I don't know what happened.

PROF MEIRING: How is the relationship nowadays between the two families?

MRS PHADI: There is no happiness between the two families.

PROF MEIRING: So something happened and you are not very happy with that, the two families.

MRS PHADI: This happened. My cousin was angry with me after I asked all these questions.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you very much. I think those were the questions I needed to ask, but I will hand over to the chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Randera?  Tom Manthata?

THOMAS MANTHATA: Rebecca, before your brother left who were his friends?

MRS PHADI: He was studying in Dobsonville. I don't know his friends.  Even at home he never came with any friends.  He didn't have too many friends.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Have you ever gone to the PAC offices just to find out if they know anything about him, and what happened to him?
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MRS PHADI: I never went to the PAC office, but I did ask one of the PAC officials who is based in the Cape Town Parliament.  He was in exile in 1975.  I just asked him about Japie. He said that he did try and find out, but he never got any information about Japie.

THOMAS MANTHATA: If I hear you clearly, you say Japie disappeared whilst at home. He didn't disappear whlist in exile. Is that what you are saying?

MRS PHADI: Can you please repeat your question?

THOMAS MANTHATA: I want to know whether he disappeared when he had already returned from exile or whilst he was back home, did he go across the border again? Is it possible that he might have disappeared when he was over the border?

MRS PHADI: I cannot say whether he disappeared here in South Africa or whilst across the border.

THOMAS MANTHATA: I thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Randera?

DR RANDERA: Rebecca, just tell me, Dumoholo and George, were they also members of the PAC?

MRS PHADI: Excuse me?

DR RANDERA: Your brothers George and Dumoholo, were they members of the PAC?

MRS PHADI: They were not members of the PAC. I am not sure, but they were just ordinary children who were going to school.

DR RANDERA: At times the torture that you are talking about, was just related to the fact that your brother had disappeared.

MRS PHADI: Yes, they were tortured because Japie left.

DR RANDERA: When did that stop, Rebecca?  Japie disappeared in 1977.  When did they stop harrassing your mother and your KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
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brothers?

MRS PHADI: After George died, then they stopped.

DR RANDERA: In 1980?

MRS PHADI: Yes, that is so.

DR RANDERA: When your brother returned to the country, did the police not start coming back again and questioning you people again?

MRS PHADI: You mean when he returned in 1982?

DR RANDERA: In 1982, yes.

MRS PHADI: The police didn't know that he was around.  He was hiding.  He was hiding at my aunt's place.

DR RANDERA: The reason, I think it was Prof Meiring who asked you if you saw your brother and you said you had not seen him.  The reason for not seeing him, was that because you were frightened or was it because he had sent instructions that you should not see him, what was the rason for the family not seeing your brother, besides your one brother, your older brother?

MRS PHADI: During that time we were in mourning. Therefore we did not have time and was unable to go and see him.  We were busy preparing for the funeral of my mother.  That time he was hiding himself at my aunt's place.  So we didn't have time.

DR RANDERA: Did he not stay for long?  How long do you think he stayed in Kagiso for at your aunt's place?

MRS PHADI: It seems it was one and a half weeks.

DR RANDERA: You mention your cousin Peter.  After your brother disappeared - sorry, Paul, my apologies.  Paul.  After your brother disappeared, did your cousin have any contact with him, any further contact with him?

MRS PHADI: He didn't tell us that he did see him.  He
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didn't tell us whether he did see him.

DR RANDERA: After that there were no newspaper articles or the police coming to you or even your cousin coming to you and saying look, something has happened to Japie.

MRS PHADI: No, nobody came.  Even our cousin was silent about this.  When I went to give evidence he did say to me why I was so quiet for 20 years, that I should come and ask him today.  So he was very angry.  Then I told him that I must know because all the time you were with him, then I am going to give evidence to the Truth Commission.  I requested him to tell me the whole story about Japie.

DR RANDERA: You mentioned a member of Parliament from the PAC.  What is his or her name?

MRS PHADI: His name is Mokolisi, I think his surname is Moklasi.

DR RANDERA: (Indistinct - microphone not switched on) ...

MRS PHADI: I just asked him because in 1975 he was in exile. So I just asked him.  Maybe when he was in exile maybe he met Japie there.

DR RANDERA: But he didn't say that he knew Japie.

MRS PHADI: He said in 1977 he was overseas, so he was not in Tanzania or Zambia or in one of these African countries, so he doesn't know about Japie.

DR RANDERA: Did he say that he would help you in terms of enquiries with the PAC?

MRS PHADI: Yes, he did ask the PAC and then he made a story about Japie.  Then it appeared on paper, that if there is somebody who knows Japie in the PAC, he must inform us or write to us to tell us about Japie.

DR RANDERA: What became of that?

MRS PHADI: Nothing came out of that.
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