Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — 1997-02-10

<UNKNOWN>: It appears to have been taken, as I told you earlier, it's not signed, but I understand this is a statement which Mr Madlala made, appears to have been made on 6 November last year but I don't want to mislead you as to where and when it was made because there's no indication as to that.   I have been informed that this is a statement which this gentleman has made.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think in all fairness to the witness Mr Brink, let's break it up into parts because it was quite a mouthful.   The first sentence reads
"After we had finished searching, Mbongeni Jama  said these police need to be killed as they had killed IFP supporters at Kwashange.   After I had told Harrington of what had been uttered by
1.2	Mbongeni /...
MR BRINK	49	W B HARRINGTON
Mbongeni, Harrington and Erasmus took him into the back of the police van."
Now, according to this statement you were told by Mr Madlala that the deceased said we should kill these policemen.   Did he tell you that Mr Madlala?

ANSWER: Sir it is difficult to recall all that, it is possible that he mentioned that to me but what I am putting before you today is what I can remember.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: It was after he had told you about what the deceased had said that you decided that he must be put into the police van.

ANSWER: Yes I did decide that he had to be put in the police van.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: He told you that he said the police should be killed, not because he had an ANC T-shirt on him, not because he had a pocket diary etc., but because he had said that you people should be killed, that's the reason why you decided to put him into the police vehicle that's what he's saying, that is the impression we get here.   Is that the reason why he was put in the vehicle? (end tape 2b)

ANSWER: Because as I said it is possible that Madlala said that to me but I cannot recall.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...what was the reason for putting him into the vehicle according to your recollection?

ANSWER: It was because initially we stopped and just to put this in perspective he put his hand in the back of his pants when we stopped, that was the reason for us stopping and he appeared very suspect.   We searched the group, he did not want to be searched by us.   Some of the special constables had to hold him so that we could search him.  I still maintain that he was an ANC representative and if I
1.3	were /...
MEMBER OF COMMISSION	50	W B HARRINGTON
were to make a deduction from what is before you it did not have to do with the T-shirt or anything clothing that he had but he was arrested because of that.
QUESTIONS BEING ASKED - INAUDIBLE SPEAKER HAS NO MICROPHONE

ANSWER: He stood out he was, he appeared suspicious and the others allowed us to search them.

<UNKNOWN>: (Inaudible).

ANSWER: The others were not afraid of us searching them.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ..you decided to kill this man because earlier on he had said well let's kill this policeman isn't that the position?

ANSWER: It's possible that it could have been conveyed to me but it is something that I cannot remember.   Look I also spoke a bit of broken Zulu at the time between Madlala and the other specials and myself, we spoke a mixture of broken English and broken Zulu so there were times we understood what they said when they spoke either, speaking either broken English or broken Zulu but I would not like to be specific in saying that the person either said that or did not.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...seem to remember precisely why you took him onto the vehicle and why him in particular.   Anyway, the next sentence reads that you are the person who suggested that the deceased be killed.  What is your comment?

ANSWER: It is not, we did not decide there to kill him, the decision was taken at the bottlestore after Erasmus came up with the suggestion.   No decision was taken immediately after he was put into the police van.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: He's saying the suggestion, it doesn't matter whether the suggestion came after you had been to the
1.3	bottlestore /...
MEMBER OF COMMISSION	51	W B HARRINGTON
bottlestore or whatever time, he's simply saying the suggestion that the deceased be killed came from you.   Did it come from you or did it not come from you?

ANSWER: As I mentioned, Erasmus came up with the suggestion and we took a unanimous decision as a group.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...later on he said that you knocked the deceased's head against the stone several times and eventually you forced him to shoot the deceased with a shotgun.

ANSWER: Sir if I may put it this way, the inquest showed that the bullet penetrated his head in the front and exited at the back and there was no mention made of any such, and there was nothing said about me knocking his head against a stone.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...shoot the deceased that was the second leg of my question.

ANSWER: That was the evidence in court as well but when we spoke about it and we took the decision that Mr Jama had to be killed, special constable Bengu offered to show us the place where we could do this and Madlala said that he would shoot him.   When we got to the bushes Nglameni came with his firearm and said to Madlala to shoot him.   It was a unanimous decision and the feeling was mutual between all of us, we all knew what it was about.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...an instructions from you or an order from you that he should shoot him.

ANSWER: If I were to say to a strange person shoot him, then it could be probably regarded as an instruction but the fact that we took the decision as a group and he said okay I'll shoot him, I did not give any specific instruction.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ...a member of that group but he understood
1.3	it /...
MEMBER OF COMMISSION	52	W B HARRINGTON
it as more than just a casual request, he understood it as some kind of an order forcing him.   Would his understanding be wrong?

ANSWER: That is the wrong conclusion because the conversation and the decision was unanimous, we were all in agreement.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well thank you.
WITNESS IS EXCUSED

MR BANADE: Mr Chairman if the Committee is satisfied may we proceed with the evidence of Mr Erasmus, I would like him to stand so that he can be sworn in.
1.3	FRANS /...
53
FRANS STEPHANUS ERASMUS (ss)
EXAMINATION BY MR BANADE

<UNKNOWN>: Mr Erasmus, a copy of the document which you have prepared to assist you in giving evidence has been made available to the Committee.   We would like to ask you to please go through it.