Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

CHAIRPERSON: When?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I do not remember the day, but I was after the proper establishment of the units.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure that it was immediately after the proper establishment of the unit?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I am sure.

CHAIRPERSON: When were the units properly established, that's what I've been trying to elicit from you ever since you started giving evidence?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: If I am not mistaken it was around June, that's when they were established and they were becoming more responsible.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not in fact so that Mr Khumalo assumed his command of the unit in June 1993, '92?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I do not understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it not a fact that Mr Bonga Khumalo became a general commander in June 1992?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that being so you should be able to give us an indication when a general order was issued by him.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: After he became the general commander.  In those few days after he became the general commander the general order was issued out.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it in the month of June?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: If I'm not mistaken, yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: If Mr Khumalo says after June, would he be correct?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I am not quite sure.

CHAIRPERSON: If Mr Khumalo in his evidence said the order was issued after June, would he be correct, meaning it wasn't issued in June but it was after June.  Would he be correct?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: He might be right.  That's why I'm saying I do not remember quite well.

CHAIRPERSON: Your evidence is it must have been around June.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I'm saying it was around June, yes.  I'm supposed to, I'm right saying it was around June, but I am not exact as to the dates.  It might have been that he became a commander on the 8th of June and the 31st he became the commander, and now it would be difficult to actually separate the dates.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Now I'm aware that it would be impossible for you to give us a specific date.  I am saying if Mr Khumalo said he didn't order, give a general order, around June, but only issued it much later than June, then he would be incorrect.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I do not remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moloisane, emanating from the questions, just switch off your microphone.  Emanating from the questions from the Panel do you think there is any need for re-examination.

MS MOLOISANE: I have no re-examination Madam Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlongo you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair I think that concludes the incident of Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena, which leaves us with the incident of Maletsatsi.
RECALL OF JOHN RADEBE
NEW INCIDENT RE MALETSATSI

CHAIRPERSON: In respect of the Maletsatsi incident we only have one applicant, and that's Mr John Radebe.  Ms Moloisane are you in a position to proceed with the evidence in chief of Mr Radebe?

MS MOLOISANE: ...(indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: We have been assured in Chambers that it is a fairly short incident.  Maybe we can dispose of this incident today.

MS MOLOISANE: I intend calling him right now.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe you may again take your seat.  You know that you lead evidence in respect of the other incident.  I think for the record we shall now move to the incident regarding the killing of Maletsatsi Morumo, which occurred on the 14th of June 1993.  We shall now proceed with the evidence in chief of Mr Mjanyana John Radebe, who is the only applicant in respect of this incident.  The Panel consists of, it's still the same as the one that heard an earlier incident concerning Ms Mokoena and Ms Ndumo.
	Ms Moloisane you may proceed to lead his evidence in chief.

JOHN RADEBE: (s.u.o.)

MS MOLOISANE: Mr Radebe you have applied for amnesty in respect of the murder of Ms Maletsatsi Marumo.  Is that correct?

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: And it is common cause that you killed the said Maletsatsi Marumo on the 14th of June 1993.  Is that also correct?

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: Now will you please tell this Committee what you, or what led to the killing of the said Maletsatsi Marumo?
MR RADEBE
"It was in early 1992 or late 1992, I would not remember the month.  Maletsatsi was our comrade in the ANC youth league, she was supporting very well.  She was a pupil at Mpuluzi secondary school.  It happened that while she was still a pupil her father passed away.  After the passing away of her father her mother left her.  She went to look for another place at Grassmere.
		After they left, Maletsatsi got involved in the issues regarding comradeship where she was with us most of the times.  We realised that she was financially struggling, and as comrades we went to her school and we intervened.  We told the principal that Maletsatsi, we requested that she pays, we requested the principal not to let her pay the school fees because she was left alone, and this was accepted.  We then went to the owner of the place because she lived in a shack, she was a tenant, and we requested that the R20 rent that she was supposed to pay every month be scratched.  They understood that.  
		Comrade Maletsatsi became very active in our struggle as the ANC youth.  After some time we discovered that she was now living in Vereeniging.  She went to town, came back to the township, and after some time it was rumoured that she was involved with Getisi and others.  That was during the time when Getisi and his people began the killing of people.  We asked comrade Maletsatsi about this rumour and we discovered that she did not know it, and we just left it there.  
		After quite some time some girls from the youth league, who were involved in the struggle, and just to mention a few, Makezasa, Gambu, Mkhwanazi, Gogo and Ellen, it was quite a group of girls who supported our organisation.  We got information that these girls also were getting, were associated with Getisi and his group.  One day I was travelling, I was moving from Zone 12 and the the comrades from Small Farms informed me that the Gogo and them were kidnapped from town and they were assaulted."

MS MOLOISANE: When was this?

JOHN RADEBE: I think all these happened in 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)  Try and estimate a date Ms Moloisane.  It will assist us greatly.  To speak of the year, it really doesn't come to our assistance.