Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: But why do you keep on, nobody's asking you to give evidence - what do you mean you're giving evidence on behalf of your client?  Don't you know that as counsel, when you cross-examine, you put it to a witness and say "Mr Oelofse will say that you never showed him the ear as you alleged.  Mr Oelofse says that you never came back and told him that he had killed people.  Mr Oelofse will deny that or denies that he told you to get rid of a Mercedes Benz"  That's not giving evidence.

MR DREYER: Mr Chairman, with great respect...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: It seems to me you are taking every possible care not to tell us what Mr Oelofse's version is.

MR DREYER: Mr Chairman, may I just address the first portion of this statement by the Chair and that is that in cross-examination obviously it can be done on two bases.  Certain statements can be made to a witness to check and to test his credibility without actually putting anything to him as an objective fact and obviously also by contradicting his statements in evidence by stating the version of the party whoever he represents.  So it's not - not every statement I made to this applicant as a witness is based upon my client's version it can be based upon the fact that I would like to test his credibility.
	So it's difficult for me to just draw a straight line to the one or the other side and then lastly as far as the last submission that I'm trying my level best not to state Mr Oelofse's version, Mr Chairman, it must be borne in mind, with respect, that he is not one of the applicants.  He did in fact give notice of his own application so that is still sub judiciae and obviously I have to be careful to serve his interest to the best of my ability because I hold no instruction as far as his own application is concerned in this moment but I cannot put the cart before the horses.  I can merely act within the bounds of my instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dreyer, he has not made any application in respect of this incident.

MR DREYER: Not in respect of this incident, that's quite true Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So I don't understand when you speak of it still being under - being sub judiciae or something to that effect, I don't understand it.

MR DREYER: Mr Chairman, it is my instruction that he has in fact applied in general terms, not in respect of this particular incident but by putting the cart before the horses as I've stated, I might prejudice his position in terms of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well then, you came here to deny that these people acted on the strength of any orders from your client Mr Oelofse, you've dealt with that aspect.  If you have got any other questions to ask, tell us what other aspect you still want to deal with and why you think we should give you more time to do so.

MR DREYER: I'll do so Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: What is that you still - what aspects of the matter?

MR DREYER: The very last aspect which is still linked to the whole question of whether or not there was an order to that effect is the matter of whether or not there was at the end of this whole operation the opportunity at which apparently General Oelofse or Japie Oelofse congratulated them on this very particular deed, an act that took place.

CHAIRPERSON: Well does he deny that?

MR DREYER: He denied that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we'll take note of that.

MR DREYER: As the Chair pleases.  My Chairman, may I just receive an instruction before I conclude?
	Mr Chairman I have in fact had the opportunity to just get the full instruction on the question that was put to me by the Committee in respect of the alleged occasion where this applicant went back to the plot, the agricultural holding where Oelofse was resident at that time and presented him with an ear.  I was just not sure - I wanted to make sure about whether or not it took place the next day or whatever - that was why I wanted to take instruction and for the purposes of the answer to that question - it is not denied that this applicant did in fact - went back the next day with the ear but it is the version of Oelofse that in fact he did indicate to the applicant, as was also testified by this applicant in the criminal proceedings, that he was chased away literally by Oelofse stating that he doesn't want to have anything to do with that because that is not what the instruction was or that was not what was expected of them to do that evening.  So that was the evidence that was given by this applicant during the criminal proceedings and that is the version of the truth on the part of Oelofse.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kloppers, who was promoted according to your version, if you know, who was promoted while you were in prison by Mr Oelofse?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Myself, Deon Martin and then we had to undertake promotions to the lower levels ourselves.

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Dreyer, do you have instructions on that aspect as to whether or not in fact Oelofse, while these people were in prison, promoted them or you don't have instructions on that?

MR DREYER: Mr Chairman, it is my instruction that Oelofse alone cannot promote people it is a decision that must be taken, a joint decision that must be taken and it should also be borne in mind that's also in accordance with my instruction that in fact this applicant together with the rest of the group was visited in jail by not only Oelofse at a stage when Oelofse was released but also by Eugene Terre'blanche himself and that Eugene Terre'blanche at that stage did in fact in some way supported them or congratulated them or spoke to them in a manner to build their spirit, not to become despondent while they're still in detention.

MRS VAN DER WALT: I don't know if I understood you correctly but indeed promotions did take place?

MR DREYER: Chairperson, it is my instruction that while this group of persons was in detention and this is what I wanted to clear up with the witness, this group was in detention and not in a communal cell with Oelofse because you will recall that at a point he said that Oelofse shouted to them that they should remain courageous, that they were heroes.  That was part of his testimony and he also testified regarding another occasion when Mr Terre'blanche was present and he asked Mr Terre'blanche to take up their status as prisoners of war and that Mr Terre'blanche said that he did not think the time was ripe - something to that effect so there was more than one opportunity but with regard to the specific promotion, it is my instruction that promotions did in fact take place but those promotions were not the correct decision or sole decision of Mr Oelofse and largely the motivation behind that was to increase the morale of those in prison and it was not promotions solely connected to this incident - there was no approval for that.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any comment to make in relation to that?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes Chairperson, I would like to mention that I am in possession of a document which is undersigned by  General Oelofse where in which I have been promoted from Chief Commandant to Brigadier.  I don't know if my advocate or my wife have the documents but I'm sure that we could submit these documents to the Committee.  It was said to me that I was loyal towards the AWB, that I had remained courageous and that I had performed my tasks as it was expected of me, so also my men, that is why Deon Martin was promoted from Commandant to Colonel and all my men involved that day also received promotions.