Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

UNKNOWN: Mr Joseph let me interrupt you, I am going to rule against you, I think that if the witness has stated earlier that he was not politically active when he came to Johannesburg and he is now being asked to either deny or to establish that and frankly I think that that's a very fair question.  But I think that once the witness has made the case we should move on.

MR SEMENYA: What is your answer Sir?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Could you please ask the question once more I have forgotten now what you said.

MR SEMENYA: Are we entitled to accept that you could not have committed anything while you were in Hammarsdale as a political activist?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: There are some things that I did.

MR SEMENYA: As a political activist?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I did those things under duress, I was not politically active or a politician but I did do some things or some political activity.

MR SEMENYA: Let me refer you to page 176 of the book.  The very first line, sentence rather goes along the following lines
"That afternoon Morgan suggested that Katiza drive with him into central Johannesburg where he said he wanted to get a camera serviced and cleaned.  Morgan drove to Shell House, the ANC's new skyscraper national headquarters given to the movement by the Royal Dutch Shell Oil Company".
Is that part of the book correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Could you please just give me a moment to read that extract.  Yes I did say that.

MR SEMENYA: But I thought you said you didn't know this building, but what is important is you describe it even as a new skyscraper national headquarters of the African National Congress.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I explained that the book some I said some I didn't say, because your question is with Shell House because I think the office was the Shell House now you've told me it's not the Shell House, that means I was wrong.  There was no Shell House the office.

UNKNOWN: Did you not hear that, could you repeat that?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I explained earlier on that I did not know the name of the building.

MR SEMENYA: Well what I am trying to establish, you didn't give Bridgeland this answer that you were taken by Morgan to the ANC's new skyscraper national headquarters of the African National Congress which was donated by the Royal Dutch Shell Oil Company?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I answered you in this manner.  I said it's not every allegation in this book that is true, but this specific matter with regard to Shell House is not true because at that time I did not know the name of the building.

MR SEMENYA: Let us talk about your statement when you came to Johannesburg.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Could you please give that to me I also would like to see it.

MR SEMENYA: Can I give you a copy of your statement and there is a thumbprint on the last page of that document and the name Katiza Cebekhulu.  Can the witness be shown this document.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much.

MR SEMENYA: Is that a copy of your statement?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Joseph.

MR JOSEPH: Sorry to interrupt you.  This particular statement was handed to me by my learned friend Mr Vally as I concluded leading this witness in-chief or while I was leading this witness in-chief.  To the best of my knowledge this document has not been placed before Mr Cebekhulu.  I would have thought that documents of this nature would have been given to Mr Cebekhulu's legal advisors before, to assist in presenting the evidence.

UNKNOWN: Now let's just establish that we are talking about the same document, isn't the document in Afrikaans and with the thumbprint - ja I must admit that I also only received this towards the end of your evidence.  Pass the buck here, ask Hanif to explain.

<UNKNOWN>: My understanding was that this was included in the packages at the beginning.  This I believe is the statement taken on the 22nd of February 1989, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: Clearly not been seen by a legal representative for the witness, it's certainly not been received by any of us at this table until about an hour ago.

MR SEMENYA: Deputy Chairperson may I just for the record say neither did we have prior possession of the statement.  We were given the statement at the same time as everybody else.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  Can you make a suggestion Mr Joseph so we can proceed?

MR JOSEPH: In the interest of bringing the inquiry to a close if my learned friend would oblige us by leaving the statement to one side and to continue with other cross-examination I will in the meantime study it and perhaps assist and facilitate my friend. I don't know what is in the statement.  I think it is dangerous to allow the statement just to be put to him.

UNKNOWN: Would you find that acceptable? We will come back to it.

MR SEMENYA: I will suggest it's acceptable.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  Please proceed.

MR SEMENYA: Can we first, okay in the meantime deal with aspects of the book Katiza Cebekhulu.  On page 77 it appears that Mr Sipho Mabuza is dead.  Is this information the one you gave to Mr Bridgeland?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: If you can read it - no I never said that.

MR SEMENYA: You don't know where Mr Bridgeland gets it from?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No I don't know, that's why I told you beforehand that some of the allegations are unknown to me.

MR SEMENYA: But that paragraph actually says
"Richardson issued Kgase Mekgwe and Mono with green and gold tracksuits to go to this funeral".
So where would Mr Bridgeland have - or at least let me put it this way, did you say ...(intervention)

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I understand your point.

MR SEMENYA: Ja but if you give me an opportunity to finish what I am saying and I am indebted to your ability to understand my questions, did you say to Mr Bridgeland, did you give him an account about you and the other boys going to the funeral of Sipho Mabuza?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Now what do you mean that you did not give Bridgeland that you guys went to the funeral of Sipho Mabuza?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Because you asked me about the death of Sipho Mabuza, you did not ask me about the funeral.  You said to me as to whether I knew that Sipho Mabuza died.  You did not ask me about the funeral.

MR SEMENYA: Do you now know that you attended the funeral of Sipho Mabuza?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: Yes that is correct, I do.

MR SEMENYA: But Sipho Mabuza is very much alive Mr Cebekhulu?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I did not say he died but we said we went to Sipho Mabuza's father's funeral.  Sipho Mabuza's father's funeral, not Sipho Mabuza.

MR SEMENYA: Now you say the son to Sipho Mabuza is Hotstix, that's what you say in the book, that's not correct?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: What is it if it's not true?

MR SEMENYA: No I am saying the book says the son to Sipho Mabuza is Hotstix.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: No it's Sipho's father who passed away, Sipho Mabuza Hotstix is the son, the father died.  I don't know what else you want me to say.

MR SEMENYA: Now that we know you were in Mrs - I withdraw that question.  How many children does Zinzi have?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I know of two.

MR SEMENYA: And how many does Zenani have?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I don't know.

MR SEMENYA: How many children were in the house while you were a member of the household?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: There were three children.

MR SEMENYA: What are their names?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: I don't remember their names but I remember these other two boys names and the other one was of school-going age and the other girl.

MR SEMENYA: What names do you remember?

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: It was Zondwa, there was Gaddafi as well as another girl and Zoleka.

MR SEMENYA: Well I don't know some of the names you mentioned.  Can I draw your attention to the map which you were given.  I see that you describe on the left-hand top corner of that diagram a toilet with a shower.

KATIZA CEBEKHULU: That is correct.

MR SEMENYA: Are you sure that there is a shower in that room?