Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-12

GINOTRY DANSTER: Sizwe was in the corner tied around the ankles and he was handcuffed to the bed.

ADV DE JAGER: I don't want us to have any confusion, was that when General Coetzee visited at that stage or was it when Mr Dirk Coetzee visited?

GINOTRY DANSTER: No, those are different times.

ADV DE JAGER: So you're speaking now about the visit of General Coetzee?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Did the General speak to Mr Kondile?

GINOTRY DANSTER: No, he did not speak to him.

ADV DE JAGER: Not at all?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He spoke to Captain du Plessis.

MR ROUX: Sorry, Mr Chairman, just one question I forgot to ask.
	Just to finalise, can you just tell the Commission what happened to you in regard to the police force after this incident?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I was transferred to New Brighton enquiries, after that I resigned.

MR ROUX: Just the year, what year was that when you were transferred?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Late 1982.

MR ROUX: Thank you Mr Chairman, that's the examination.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROUX

CHAIRPERSON: When did you resign?

GINOTRY DANSTER: 1983.

CHAIRPERSON: What sort of work are you doing now?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I'm a builder.

ADV DE JAGER: Would you kindly repeat the answer the last question?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I build, I'm a builder.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moosa, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Just one or two Mr Chairman.
	The car that you used to come back from Bloemfontein with Mr Kondile, do you remember that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I don't remember the car because we had a problem with our own car, it heated up.  The following week the car was fetched by Mahote and Adana from Bloemfontein.

MR MOOSA: The car that you actually used to come back, what happened to that car?

GINOTRY DANSTER: It was returned to Bloemfontein.

MR MOOSA: How did you address Mr Kondile, what name did you use?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Sizwe.  His code name was: "crazy"

MR MOOSA: Thank you, no further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOOSA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR NYOKA: Two minutes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR NYOKA: When you went to fetch Mr Kondile from Bloemfontein, were you told by anyone how he got to be arrested? - either by a security officer of Mr Kondile himself?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Captain du Plessis said that he'd been arrested close to Lesotho, do you know or was that all?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We got details from Sizwe when we were investigating the matter.  He was going to phone his girlfriend, apparently the phones were not working from the Lesotho side.  He was arrested along the border post.

MR NYOKA: Do you have anything against Mr du Plessis and Mr Raath to falsely implicate them in the acts of torture that you alleged, except of course for the concession that Mr du Plessis made that he punched him some few punches and slaps?  Do you have anything against them to falsely implicate them in acts of torture?

GINOTRY DANSTER: No.

MR NYOKA: And that they said Mr Kondile co-operated almost immediately and became an informer, was that a lie?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is not true.

MR NYOKA: Finally, the son of Mr Kondile is very proud of the gallant effort and stance that his father took but the only thing that he's critical about regarding you, is that after you resigned you could have gone to the Kondile family which was and still is very well known, and told them confidentially what happened Mr Danster, that is the only part that we are critical about, thank you.  Do you have anything to say about that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Bond, that's my nickname and it looks like you know me.  As you know, at that time it was difficult, you could not - to take information - the men that have lost their lives for trying to get information to the movement.

MR NYOKA: ...[inaudible] thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NYOKA

GINOTRY DANSTER: There is something I would like to say.  I would like to address the family.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

GINOTRY DANSTER: I'm sure you have waited a long time to hear what happened to Sizwe.  This has been something that has been very heavy on my shoulders, however the truth and lies are not the same.  I would like to apologise to the family.  I did not partake in killing him however, I interrogated him and I ask for forgiveness.

MR NYOKA: Just one more part Mr Chairperson.
	Can I ask you to go an apologise to them and shake hands with them?

CHAIRPERSON: You can do that a little later on.

MR NYOKA: All right, thank you.

GINOTRY DANSTER: All right.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Booyens, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

MR BOOYENS: I certainly have questions for this witness.  Mr Chairman, I don't know whether Mr Jansen's position ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: We will ask him just now.

MR BOOYENS: Certainly.
	Mr Danster, you say you are a builder at present?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Right now I'm in jail.

MR BOOYENS: So you're not a builder at present, you're a prisoner?

CHAIRPERSON: He's a builder by trade or by occupation.

MR BOOYENS: The question was, what is he doing at present M'Lord, he may be a builder by trade - on the premises where he presently is.
	Let's deal with your transfer from the security police.  The reason for that transfer was because there was a small problem about it being alleged that you were involved in some falsified driving licenses, not so?  That's the reason for your transfer, you were in fact found guilty of an offence like that.  I'm not saying you committed it, I'm just saying you were found guilty and then you were transferred, is that correct?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: So your transfer from the security police had absolutely nothing to do with your involvement with Mr Kondile, it had something to do with something completely different , is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: Let's deal with these cars that you were - the problems with the motor cars and the return from Bloemfontein and so on, I just want to get clarity about that.  You had to borrow a car in Bloemfontein, is that right? - because your P.E. car gave you problems, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Was that a police car with a radio?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: And ultimately that Bloemfontein police car was taken back to Bloemfontein and your P.E. car was returned, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: The point is, the five of you - that's including the four policemen and the deceased, travelled down in the Bloemfontein police car to Port Elizabeth, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: And this Bloemfontein police car, can you remember how long it stayed here before Bloemfontein came to fetch it or before it was taken back to Bloemfontein?

GINOTRY DANSTER: About a week.

MR BOOYENS: Where was this car, was it at your security headquarters in P.E.? - the Bloemfontein car.

GINOTRY DANSTER: I'm not sure, I think it was taken to P.E. where they kept the police cars.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, not the government garage, the police garage.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: So it seems to that for that first week at least you were in P.E. because you even know about the movements with the motor car? - your car being returned, the Bloemfontein car being fetched.  So you were not involved with the deceased at that stage?

GINOTRY DANSTER: As the car was taken - we were using a ...[indistinct], there were cars there that could be used.

MR BOOYENS: That's not the point of the question please Mr Danster.

GINOTRY DANSTER: What are you trying to ask me?

MR BOOYENS: Just answer my questions, don't tell me what to ask you.  You must have been in P.E. because you know that the Bloemfontein car was taken back after about a week.  You were in P.E., you were not in Jeffrey's Bay, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is not correct.