Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

MR RICHARD: Now do you know that in May of 1986 the deceased left home due to various problems that were going on in the neighbourhood and in Soweto?  Do you know the incidents, the period that I'm talking about, May 86?

MR DUBE: No.

MR RICHARD: Were you in Soweto during May 86?

MR DUBE: The fact that I was in Soweto did not mean that I knew everything that was going on in Soweto.

MR RICHARD: Well were you aware ...(intervention)

MR DUBE: I did not know Sicelo in May 1986.

MR RICHARD: I'm asking you a simple question.  Were you aware of the Azapo - UDF conflicts in Soweto during that period?

MR DUBE: I knew about the conflict between the Azapo and UDF but I don't know that was specifically in May.  One other thing is that I cannot remember whether I was in Soweto or not at that time, and I do not know how the question relates to the matter at hand.

MR RICHARD: Well the point about it is that during the period June 86 to November 86 did you know the deceased?

MR DUBE: I did mention that I did not know him in 1986, I started knowing him in 1987.

MR RICHARD: Now why that period is important is that the deceased was detained during that period in terms of the emergency regulations.  Are you aware of that?

MR DUBE: No I do not, I didn't know about it.

MR RICHARD: So, is today the first time you hear that during that period the deceased was detained by the state in terms of the then emergency regulations?

MR DUBE: Because of the number of people that I worked with in Soweto it is difficult for me to say that I do not know whether he was or not, because I worked with a lot of people so that is why I said I do not remember him being detained.

MR RICHARD: Well do you remember anything about the deceased, in particular about his lifestyle, what he did during his life? ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before we go onto that, I don't know about the accuracy of this Mr Richard.  It's a newspaper report of a police statement that he was detained in 1986 in connection with an allegation of attempted murder.  The attempted necklace murder of a woman teacher.  Did you know that?

MR RICHARD: I have corroborated that information, it is reliable.

MR DUBE: I do not remember that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Surely that is precisely the sort of incident you would want to know about if you were recruiting someone for a cell, that the police had detained him on an attempted murder charge, of a teacher?  Very relevant background information I would have thought.

MR DUBE: Yes, it is important, but I, what I'm saying is that I do not remember.

MR RICHARD: ...(indistinct) and didn't care whether you knew that sort of information, or you're misleading us.

MR DUBE: Some things you would want to know before you recruit someone.  As I did explain before it happens that you forget.

MR RICHARD: I beg pardon, I cannot hear the translator's translation over my headset.
Proceed.

INTERPRETER: Can you hear now?

MR RICHARD: I can now, thank you.

MR DUBE: I said it was important for a person to know.  The person's background was important.  But if such information did not come to my attention there was nothing I could do about it, therefore cannot be prosecuted for it.

MR RICHARD: Sorry, I'm waiting for the translation.  I beg pardon translator, what did the witness say?

INTERPRETER: He said that such information was important.

MR RICHARD: I'm sorry I cannot hear the translator.
Sorry can the translator repeat.
I'm sorry I cannot hear anything.  I can hear you and I can hear the Zulu, but I cannot hear English.

INTERPRETER: Are you on ...(intervention)

MR RICHARD: It's on, I'm on 2.
It's now working, whatever's happened.  Sorry translator, I beg pardon.  Could the translator repeat the witnesses last answer.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you'd better put the question again, I can't remember what it was.

MR RICHARD: Please go back to the period of June to November 1986.  During that period, and this where I was leading to, the deceased was detained and the applicant appears to be unaware of it.  Is that correct?  Were you aware?  The impression I had is you were unaware.

MR DUBE: What I said is that I do not remember.

MR RICHARD: You might have been aware, you might now have been aware.

MR DUBE: That is true.

MR RICHARD: Now would you be aware that during that period as well that the deceased alleged and claimed that he was assaulted and tortured by means of electric shock and that while undergoing that ordeal he was pressurised by the police to become and informer?  Because that was public knowledge at that time.

MR DUBE: I do not have such knowledge about the deceased.

MR RICHARD: Now, we proceed down history.  Now were you aware of the deceased's involvement in the making of a television documentary called Children of Apartheid?

MR DUBE: Yes, I was aware of that.

MR RICHARD: Now what was said in that documentary?

MR DUBE: What I knew was that he took part in that documentary but I was not aware of the details of the documentary.

MR RICHARD: So you do not know what the topic of that documentary was?

MR DUBE: As I said before, I just knew the title, that it concerned children living under apartheid, but what the contents of the documentary were I was not aware of it.

MR RICHARD: Aren't you aware that it was specifically concerned with the conditions of minors in detention?

MR DUBE: I was aware of that.

MR RICHARD: Now in your cell member you have, in your cell you had a member who, after his detention, went to see his attorney Ismail Ayob and Partners, and made a statement reporting exactly what happened to him in detention.  Wouldn't you be aware of that as commander responsible for a cell?

MR DUBE: Please repeat the last part of your question.

MR RICHARD: As a commander of a cell, wouldn't the witness be aware that a member of that cell had been to an attorney to report that he had been tortured and that he had been pressurised to turn as police informer?

MR DUBE: Are you referring to the allegation that Sicelo had been detained in 1986?

MR RICHARD: I'm referring to a number of incidents.  I'm not going to break them down at this stage.  Were you ever aware that that is what the deceased said of his experiences in detention?  At any stage.

MR DUBE: I knew Sicelo from 1987.  With regards to his being detained prior to that period, I did not know about it.

MR RICHARD: That is not an answer to my question.  My question is very simple.  The deceased at various times reported to various people that he had been detained, and that during the course of his questioning he had been subject to pressure to turn as a police informer, and that was not only in 1986.  Were you ever aware of any such report concerning the deceased?  It's a yes or no situation.

MR DUBE: Well I am saying that I did not know about it.

MR RICHARD: Now, as a commander, wouldn't that be of very material importance?

MR DUBE: Yes, it is important to know about such.

MR RICHARD: However, we have the situation that you, despite the fact that the deceased had told the world through the international media, were unaware.  Yet you, the deceased was certainly not secret about his experiences in detention.  But you didn't know.

MR DUBE: I have already explained that I knew him in 1987, not before that.

MR RICHARD: I'm talking about events that happened in 1987, and that's not an answer.  The movie was made in March April 1987 and was broadcast later that year.  But nonetheless your answer is you are unaware that that was ever said by the deceased.

MR DUBE: Yes, I've already said so.

MR RICHARD: Now the deceased was also active in other areas besides the Soweto Student's Council.  Do you know of any of his other activities?

MR DUBE: I knew that he used to work at DPSC.

MR RICHARD: What is the DPSC?

MR DUBE: I do not remember correctly what it stands for.