Amnesty Hearings — Phokeng — 1996-05-20

MR CURRIN: What was your understanding of the policy of the African National Congress with regard to the leaders of the homelands and their colleagues?

MR DIALE: Can you please repeat the question?

MR CURRIN: What was your understanding of the policy of the African National Congress with regard to how - with regard to leadership of the homelands? What was the African National Congress' policy, what should be done about the leadership at the different levels?

MR DIALE: When we met with them in the meetings, they used to tell us that they don't recognise the Bantustans at all.  And they said the Bantustans should be demolished.

MR CURRIN: Did you ever hear the leadership of the African National Congress call for the destruction and the killing of so-called collaborators?
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MR DIALE: In all the meetings that I have attended, you
know, because of the struggle that we find ourselves in, they told us that it is important to eradicate the collaborators so that things can be clear in our township and in the whole country.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, can you tell me, did you intend to eradicate this man?  Did you go there intending to kill him?  You were being asked about the policy in this regard.

MR DIALE: It wasn't my intention to go and kill this man.  We wanted to kidnap him so that he can give us the keys of the civic centre.

JUDGE WILSON: And that had nothing to do with ANC policy, that was your own plan.  Is that not so?

MR DIALE: I can't say this didn't have any relation with the ANC, because we were working hand-in-hand with them.

MR CURRIN: Just in relation to the question that was put to you, what in your view, in the workings that you did with the African National Congress, was the attitude of the African National Congress with regard to the control of this centre by the Government of Bophuthatswana?

MR DIALE: According to what I have realised, their intentions were that we should eradicate the Bantustans.  And they wanted everybody to be incorporated into South Africa.

MR CURRIN: I would like to take you back to the question about your intention at the time.  It is quite clear from the judgment on sentence which we have read, and also from your evidence, that it was not in fact your intention to kill Glad Mokgatle on that particular day.  Is that correct?

MR DIALE: Yes, that's correct.  Because we found ourselves guilty, we pleaded guilty before the court of law.
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MR CURRIN: When things began to go wrong, you spoke about
the crowd, you spoke about anger and frustration. Could you please share with us what you were thinking at the time.  It is important.

MR DIALE: The thing that concerned me, that troubled me a lot, was the fact that our chief was sick and during that time he was in exile.  We needed him so much, we wanted him to be back on his seat.  The second point, we wanted the Bophuthatswana Government to be dismantled.  The third thing, as the Baphokeng tribe, we wanted to go back to South Africa.  We wanted to be reincorporated into South Africa, because of the oppression we experienced with the Bophuthatswana Government.

MR CURRIN: I would like to rephrase my question.  When the line of events which ended in the death of Glad Mokgatle commenced, there was no intention to kill him.  We understand that.  You sought the keys, you did not get them.  He was then taken hostage.  Even at that stage there was no intention to kill him.  At some stage something went wrong, and as I said there was anger, there was frustration.  There were all the factors which we have heard about today, that you were experiencing within you as a person.  When things went wrong and he was physically attacked and you participated in that attack, can you recall what you were thinking, as to why you were actually doing this?

MR DIALE: When we attacked Mr Glad, we wanted the Bophuthatswana Government to realise, we wanted South Africa to realise, that we don't want the Bophuthatswana Government.  That is the reason that forced me to take part in the assault of Mr Mokgatle.  We wanted Mr Mangope to realise how serious we were about the returning of our
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chief.  We wanted to tell him that we don't want this government any more.

MR CURRIN: You are saying that that is what was going through your mind at the time?

MR DIALE: Yes, that is correct.

MR CURRIN: Could I just consult with my colleague for a moment before I proceed?

HASSAN MALL: Go ahead.

MR CURRIN: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CURRIN

HASSAN MALL: Any questions?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman.  Mr Diale, you testified that you went to look for Mr Glad Mokgatle and found him where you did find him.   Now at that moment when you were looking for him, and ultimately causing his death, was the action committee, at that time, pushing any political objective, by so doing?

MR DIALE: Yes, it is like that, M'Lord.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: How do you then associate or link your action on Mr Glad Mokgatle to a political objective you were pursuing, if any?

MR DIALE: Sir, as I have explained we left here as an action committee, going to liberation movements.  We met them.  They are the people who guided us what to do, because we did not have experience in politics.  Therefore, Mr Glad Mokgatle's linkage with politics is that he was taken by Chief Mangope, the President of BOP.  He put him in our tribal affairs.  Whereas President Mangope, he was the leader of a party, he is a politician.  A politican was able to interfere in our tribal issues and this taught us to stand up and look for help from people who are busy with
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politics and are political figures.  That's how we link Mr
Glad with politics.

JUDGE MGOEPE: This committee that you took part in the attack on Mr Glad Mokgatle, will you please tell the Committee further, how did you take part?  What actually did you do?

MR DIALE: My part, I was one of them.  At that time we did not have weapons that can kill, except for the panga that was removed from Mr Glad. I used my fists and shoes on him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you - let me put it this way.  Will you agree with me that at that stage Mr Glad Mokgatle was perhaps even twice your age?

MR DIALE: Yes, it is like that, Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Were you aware of his age perhaps?

MR DIALE: His age I got to know much later, I didn't know his age.  I just knew that he was an elder person. I did not know his age.  I knew his age during the trial.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Could you just be open with this Committee, and tell the Committee as to how you felt when attacking Mr Glad Mokgatle?

MR DIALE: Just as I have already explained, feelings were running very high, and these issues were already in our blood.  We felt very hurt at the departure of our chief into exile.  I saw that it was better for me to see it that Mr Glad Mokgatle is removed from us, and from my face, because I thought if he was removed from my face things would return to normal.   President Mangope would see how serious we are in our demand to have our chief back.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What happened to Glad Mokgatle after the assault on him?  You only testified that you got into your Kombi and left.  You did not tell the Committee what happened, whether PHOKENG HEARING	AMNESTY/GAUTENG
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he left in there and you took him along.  What happened to
him?

MR DIALE: Mr Mokgatle was left at that spot where he was attacked.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Where was this?

MR DIALE: It was between Rooikraal and Luga.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you leave him in an open veld?

MR DIALE: It was just in the open veld, alongside the road.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Will I be right if I say that you knew who his children were then?  You knew the members of his family?

MR DIALE: Yes, I knew them.