Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 1998-10-20

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I thank you for that question.  There were many incidents where this matter was plotted.  I did not even know that he was an attorney.  When I wrote this statement he was not even a Premier yet.  The only time I saw his face was just recently when he started appearing on TV.
	There were many plots that were made to assassinate him and other ANC leaders.  There were other operations in areas like Bethal, which were planned and executed.  I think there was a person from Mozambique who came to discuss with the Boers and they would discuss or plot against ANC leaders.  Therefore I know that they used to have serious discussions and many discussions around plotting such murders against ANC leaders.

MR MUKADAM: Do you know the name of that person from Mozambique?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: Because we were incarcerated we did not have a lot of contact or opportunities.  Sometimes we would be asked to go and cut down wood, what they would call "second bos" ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: The questions was, did you know the name of the man from Mozambique?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: No, I did not.

MR MUKADAM: Now Mr Gwamanda, ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR MUKADAM: Mr Gwamanda, have you ever been to visit Mr Phosa at his house at any stage?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: No, I've never been to his house, I do not know it.  It was never shown to me but sometimes we would go to Legazi and look around the area and maybe somewhere around Malelane  These are the areas that I know but his house, that is Matthew's house, has never been shown to me.  I know a few areas around and we would sometimes go to those areas but I do not know the house.

MR MUKADAM: The reason I ask that, Mr Gwamanda, is that my instructions are that you in fact arranged to see Mr Phosa as Premier because you had information to give to him regarding various different police persons that were involved in smuggling counterfeit money and mandrax tablets, amongst other things.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I have made many attempts to try and see Matthew Phosa.  That is something I cannot discuss here at the Truth Commission, it is something that I have to discuss with Mr Phosa.  I have made attempts to see him and I am still planning to see him and Mr Nklantla, Mr Joe Nklantla, something that I cannot discuss here because I have a lot information to give to the Intelligence.

MR MUKADAM: Now Mr Gwamanda, I ask these questions because soon after your visit to Mr Phosa which on my instruction was around July and August of 1994, there was an attempt made on his life on the 29th of September 1994 at the Sekunda Plaza.

CHAIRPERSON: What was that date, Mr Mukadam?

MR MUKADAM: On the 29th of September 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: At the?

MR MUKADAM: Sekunda Plaza.

MR LAX: Sorry is that a toll plaza?

MR MUKADAM: No, it's a shopping plaza.

MR LAX: Shopping centre.

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I will try to explain it like this.  In 1994 I was in prison, therefore there is no role that I played there.  There is nothing that I can explain with regards to that because I was already in prison.
	The knowledge that I have about the third force is something that I cannot divulge to the Truth Commission because it does not pertain to my amnesty application.  It is information that I should present to the Intelligence and the Minister will then decide if prosecutions should follow.  
	All I am here for is to explain about my role in the incidents that took place here.  But with regards to that which you are referring to, I was already in prison and with regards to the third force activities, I cannot divulge that information here.  It is something I should present to Joe Nklantla of the Intelligence and it should go procedurally in that manner.
	I tried to communicate to Sydney Mufumadi and told him that there was some information that I would like to discuss with him and that information does not pertain to these proceedings here.  
	I have also written to the President and he did respond to me and that is the letter that he wrote back to me.  He responds to your letters.  I have written another letter laying a complaint about something that I cannot discuss here.  That is something that I will discuss with the ANC directly.

MR MUKADAM: Mr Gwmanda, what we're trying to establish is that the possibility of you being released from prison if you perhaps have been working with a third force element, I am suggesting to you that you were involved by your own admission in one attempt to try and assassinate Mr Phosa.
	My instructions are that you indeed visited him at his home and soon after there was another attempt on his life.  And I'm suggesting to you that it was part of your mission and I would like a full disclosure if you were involved in any of these things because subsequent to that, that mission had failed because there were just too many, this is the Sekunda attempt, that mission had failed because there were just too many people around.
	There was a further attempt, Mr Gwamanda, on the 2nd of February 1995 at the Kriel Colliery.  That attempt was also thwarted.  Mr Gwamanda, there was a further attempt on the 8th of April 1995 at Watervalboven.  Were you involved in any of these attempts?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I was not involved in all those other attempts.  I have been in Westville and I've always been in prison.  I was never released from the Westville Prison.  I am in Medium A and I went there because of my involvement in the Goldstone Commission.
	With regards to all those other attempts I was not involved because I've always been at Westville Prison.  I am still under the witness protection programme.  I am guarded by the police because I am under threat.  I have never ever been released from Westville Prison.  I am under obligation and rules of the prison all the time.
	It was at Barberton when I used to be released.  But with regards to the third force, I have knowledge of its activities in Mpumalanga but I cannot divulge that information.  I do not see any reason why I should divulge that information here.  But I have never been released from Westville Prison, never ever.

MR LAX: Just to clarify something because there was a very long series of statements put to you and I'm not sure that you ever answered what I would regard as the most important one directly.  Mr Mukadam suggested to you that you met with Mr Matthew Phosa in July/August 1994, did you actually meet with him in July/August 1994 as he has suggested?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I've never met Matthew Phosa as I've just explained.  I've never met him.

MR MUKADAM: My instructions are also that after that meeting you had gone to an informal settlement, you were taken to that informal settlement by Mr Phosa's driver and you were told that the information that you had given him would be attended to, what do you say to that?

BOY VUSIMUZI GWAMANDA: I have never met Mr Phosa's driver.  I am also sure that he has never met me.  And I don't know anything about that informal settlement area.  I was in prison in 1994 and I was being hidden in the prison and I've never had any discussions with Mr Phosa.  He should know this.  I have been in prison all along.

MR MUKADAM: Mr Gwamanda, that is what we're trying to establish, whether in fact you were part of a group that would be released from prison to perhaps be involved in perpetrating some act or the other.