Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-07-03

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, the next witnesses Mr and Mrs Moloi.  Mr Moloi is not well and we have arranged that he testify from his seat.  They have an extended microphone fitted.
	Unfortunately, perhaps I could sit on that side, because I am a bit obstructed by this camera.  May I move there.  Mr Moloi has indicated that he will be assisted by his wife, because he is not very well, but he will address the Committee in English initially and his wife, if she assists him, will speak Sesotho and the necessary arrangements have been made with the translators.

STEPHAN CYBUTAN FOSTER MOLOI: (sworn states)

MR BLACK: Mr Moloi, you are the father of one of the deceased, who were killed in the incident which took place in Alldays.  Could you give the Committee the full names of your son please?

MR MOLOI: My son's names Montgomery Michael Lenepo Moloi.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Your son's full names again?

MR MOLOI: Montgomery Michael Lenepo Moloi, these are his names.

MR BLACK: I understand that your son left the country during 1976, is that correct?

MR MOLOI: That is correct.

MR BLACK: And do you know the reasons for him leaving?

MR MOLOI: There was a lot of pressure on him, politically.  Even his class teacher carried a gun all the time when he wrote on the board for example, it appeared on his hip here and he just felt he could not take it any longer.

MR BLACK: And since he left the country in 1976, when was the next time you saw your son?

MR MOLOI: It was in fact when he was reported dead.

MR BLACK: And you went up to Louis Trichardt and identified his body?

MR MOLOI: That is correct, yes.

MR BLACK: And what were you told about his death?

MR MOLOI: They said that they were found in a bakkie which being searched, produced lots of various weapons.  And they were asked to give themselves up and they wouldn't do so and then there was  a shootout.

MR BLACK: Mr Moloi, you've attended most of the hearing and your wife has been in attendance throughout the hearing and has heard all the evidence?

MR MOLOI: Yes.

MR BLACK: From what you've heard and what has been reported to you by your wife and other members of the family, is there anything you would like to comment on and address the Committee on in respect of these applications for amnesty which have been made, relating to the death of your son?

MR MOLOI: This was a set up.  Sorry, this was a set up to really murder our children.  I mean if they came into the country illegally, they should have been given a chance at least to be tried.
	But for them to be killed like that, like vermin, absolute vermin, was a terrible thing.

MR BLACK: And have you any views, you and your wife have discussed this issue about the applications which have been made for amnesty?

MR MOLOI: We have heard some people actually telling the truth and how sorry they were that they have done things, but you have this police Official for example who was, what is the expression, Judas goat, he actually led our children into a corner where as somebody has quite ardently described it as slaughter corner.
	Judas goat, I mean this man knows his work.  He is trained to lead people into trouble.  You have this Judas goat in abattoirs for instance.  They lead the sheep and the goats there and then jump to the other side of the fence while the poor sheep and goats are being slaughtered.
	And this is what happened in this case.

MR BLACK: In fact your daughter also went to inspect the scene and she reported to you what she saw as well, is that correct?

MR MOLOI: Yes, correct.

MR BLACK: And the report that you received, does it record with the description given by Mr Alset?

MR MOLOI: Yes, yes.

MR BLACK: Mr Moloi, I understand when your son left since 1976 you and your family also suffered harassment?

MR MOLOI: Yes, indeed.

MR BLACK: From the Security Police, is that so?

MR MOLOI: We were being harassed, day in and day out.

MR BLACK: Yes.

MR MOLOI: Come in and ask the same question, has Monti reported, has he come and then at times they come with big guns and say that we learnt that he is here and look, we are not going to give him a chance, if he is here, he must just give himself up.  Otherwise we will ransack the whole house and kill him immediately when we come across him.

MR BLACK: Yes.  So they told you that if he comes back, they will kill him?

MR MOLOI: They said actually he was in the country at the time when they came in with big guns and so on.  But he never came back, he never did.

MR BLACK: You have heard that the 14 applicants are asking that this Committee grant them amnesty and that there would be no further civil or criminal prosecutions made against them in respect of this incident?  How do you and your family feel about that?

MR MOLOI: There are some that can be given amnesty, but I am afraid the Judas goat is the first one to be put into trouble.  He has a very dirty piece of work to do, to carry out.

MR BLACK: Thank you.  Have you anything further to add to what you've said?

MR MOLOI: I am actually very fed up with what has taken place and if the law of the land does not have this stopped, then we have no progressive South Africa to live in.

MR BLACK: Thank you.

MR BLACK: .

MR BLACK: Does your wife perhaps want to say anything?  Mr Chairman, I think Mrs Moloi just wants to have  a word if possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but can you just give Mr Moloi back that instrument for him to give us his full names and Mr Black led him straight into evidence before we could even swear in.  He didn't give us his full names.

MR MOLOI: Whose names?

CHAIRPERSON: Your own names.

MR MOLOI: Oh, I Stephan Cybutan Foster Moloi.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

LEHA MOHLAGATIBI MOLOI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You prefer to give evidence in your own language?

MRS MOLOI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.    They will interpret for you.  Give us your full names first.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MRS MOLOI: Leha Mohlagatibi Moloi.

MR BLACK: Thank you.  Mrs Moloi, you have attended the hearings throughout, and you have heard all the evidence which has been given by the applicants in respect of their application relating to the death of your son.  Is that correct?

MRS MOLOI: That is true.

MR BLACK: Would you like to make any comments to the Committee in respect of the evidence which you've heard and in respect of the applications which have been made by the applicants?