Human Rights Violation Hearings — Tzaneen — 1997-04-10

DR RANDERA: Mr Nkwamba, I want to just go back to a time before you were moved to Lulekane.  You said you were living in an area of Lebowa and you had businesses there already but then you started encountering problems with Peddie-speaking people who were saying that they were not happy with you as a Tsonga-speaking person.  Now, I just want to go back and understand that a little.  Did that arise suddenly or did that happen over a period of time?   I'm asking this because yesterday when we were in Louis Trichardt we heard about the community of  Vleifontein that also had all these groups of people living together and as the homelands structures were created people were then pocketed into their own homelands.  Was it as a result of that, that this division arose or were there other reasons?

MR NKWAMBA: My answer is this.  When the homelands started, that's where  apartheid intensified.  I personally was given businesses and even other women, many women, they had businesses where they have to sell vegetables and they had licence and I also had licences for my businesses.  These women, police from the Lebowa Government took all the licences of these women.  I personally went to consult Mr Conrad concerning this matter, at the time of Commissioner, Mr Jansen, who is now at Orange Free State.  We tried to sit down and solve the matter.  I also had licence at Namagale but because of this homeland apartheid issue, we were told that we have to move and forget our businesses.  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

DR RANDERA: Thank you, Sir.  I just want to follow that up with a few other questions.  You say in your statement again that you had applied to be the Chief of this area, to the Central Pretoria Government and then subsequently, Chief Minister Etswanisi came and installed himself as the Chief.  Was that again a common thing that happened in this area where suddenly a Minister of Government comes and declares himself the Chief of the area?

MR NKWAMBA: This was a surprise to me and also to the community.  When a person come and impose himself as a Chief and not being elected to be a Chief by the people.  A person just like, a company like a very big tree which is so big and all of you are afraid of the tree.  That was the kind of situation at that time.  When there was an application to put me into the house as a Chief, I'm very much proud of that, because I think I deserved that.  I worked a lot within the community, because I think to help the people was a talent given to me by God and I believe that and individual's talent belongs to that particular individual.  That was given by the God and even the Bible say so.

DR RANDERA: You have said in your statement that people resisted the installation of, of the Chief Minister as, as a Chief of your area.  What resistance was shown and, and how did it show it's, how did it manifest itself?

MR NKWAMBA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  On the 23rd of March 1986, they called a meeting for all the Chiefs of Gazakulu at a shopping centre and he told them.  Is this bull of the nation still roaring?  Some said yes, he's still roaring and others.  We asked them, if he's still roaring, what shall we do?  They said, we have to cut his horns and I asked, if a cow without horns can kill?  He said, yes.  They said yes, and they said, what do you have to do with it, and I said we should kill that cow.  That was the answer.  Truly, I think, that day on the 23rd of March 1986, police and camouflage soldiers came to my house.  They stayed for a long time outside the gate.  I could remember one of them.  He was a short policeman and he asked, why are you stopping us at the gate and not allowing us in?   Do you know why we're here?  Why are you so afraid?  And then later they entered the house.  In my house, we had a church and they went into the church temple.  They went there.  There was a tap and they said they must close the tap, because we don't want this person around here and you mustn't do anything and the people said, we didn't come here to close the tap.  Why did you bring us to this place?  You said if a cow without horns can kill another one which has horns, then show us that person whom should be killed and he said no, leave that and he fall down on his knees before the temple and they had to carry him  out and they left the place.

DR RANDERA: You, can I just take you back to 1985 and the disappearance of these youths that you're talking about in your statement.  What was the, the background to these disappearances and how does that relate  to what you've been telling us already, and how many youths disappeared?

MR NKWAMBA: Mr Chairperson, I will say it was not young men who disappeared.  They were children.  I don't personally know the children.  They were children from the Dimbane family.  After the children disappeared Dimbane went to police station to meet the station commander, Mr Fourie and Mr Nyati.  They gave a statement to these policemen.  According to what I've heard, these were two children, a boy and a girl.  Fourie and Nyati came to me as a leader in that community to give me this  or to tell me about this matter.  I didn't want to get deep into the matter and I told them that I'm under a Magistrate, therefore I have to take the matter to the Magistrate, Mr Jordaan.  Mr Jordaan came immediately and I gave the matter to him and he wrote me letter telling me that, you have to gather the people and tell them about this story, and I had asked people to a meeting and tell them about the problem about the disappearance of these two children.  Because we were told that these two children disappeared within the family of Mrs Mkasi whose house was burned and I think all these things were  rumours.  When we started  investigating the matter, at the meeting, we ask, how did you know that, how did you came to find out that these people were taken by Mrs Mkasi?  The people said, we went to a witch, a sangoma and this sangoma came cooked some muti and give to the people to get drunk and these people can see some visions or a bioscope, to call it and these people got the vision that people were taken, these children were taken by Mrs Mkasi.  This was not true, because they were given muti which get them drunk and they said speaking nothings which didn't mean anything.  This is what I know about the children.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.  The last question.  Again from your statement you said that when your property was burning and this was being done by community members, the police stood by at a distance and watched.  Now by this do you mean that the police were unable to control the crowds or were the police supportive of the whole situation?

MR NKWAMBA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  You are eloquent and you can ...  I hope that whatever I explain will give you a clear picture as to what happened.  The police were capable of doing their job.  However, if I have to get to the understand, my understanding of the matter is that, after I've spoken to Mr Grobbelaar and talked to the Chief Minister and the Chief Minister complained that I was referred to as a Chief Minister.  That's were I have to go back the memory lane and think that's where the conflict started.  It's not the police who were unable to protect my property.  They didn't fail and they were really capable.  The problem, I think, started where I was referred to as a Chief and the Chief Minister was angry about it.  From there, I think that's where the whole matter stated.  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.  Joyce!

UNKNOWN: Mr Nkwamba, are you still living in, in this farm Kwagga, or is it still called Kwagga?