Amnesty Hearings — White River — 2000-05-04

MR LUBBE: And can you also give in more detail to the Committee, the background to how this happened.
MR SEEMISE
"Israel Hlongwane and myself had been looking for ANC leaders who were to be attacked.  Unfortunately we could not locate them.  At times when we did encounter them, the situation was not ideal to kill them.  We would make regular report-backs to Noah, to the effect that we could not locate the leaders.  Noah then instructed us to kill anyone who was a member of the ANC, including the youth.
		So on that particular day we left from Mr Noah's home.  We then proceed towards the stadium where there was a footpath.  I was walking in front and we came across these boys.  I realised that I had seen them, I used to see them at ANC gatherings.  I them signalled to Sugar(?) that these boys were ANC people, therefore they could be killed.  He then proceeded to shoot at them.
		Thereafter we went to Noah Mxobogazi and informed him that we had shot three persons and Mxobogazi was pleased and congratulated us."

MR LUBBE: Please look at pages 122, 123 and 124 - it concerns, Mr Chairperson, paragraph 6.5:  The Attempted Murder of Ms Tilli Nkosi.
	Towards the end of page 123, Mr Seemise, I'm picking up Mr Hlongwane's evidence where he says:
"Now I'm talking about the Maseko, I'm talking about the house of Charles Maseko.  On this particular night when Mrs Nkosi was injured, it was myself, Charles Maseko, the owner of the house, Noah and China.  Noah round about 6 o'clock said 'today we are going to kill Ms Nkosi.  Charles Maseko said, if we can be able to kill this woman, she's a troublesome woman in Wesselton and she is the one who decides women.  And we all laughed and we left to Wesselton, myself and China.
			When we were at Wesselton on that particular night we met her.  She was having a baby on her back.  China confirmed that it is her.  If I remember well, at that instant a car, which was a bakkie carrying furniture, a furniture bakkie, came and it stopped at the gate and then she bent.  I did the U-turn and went back to her.  She was about the distance to where my lawyer is sitting and she stood upright.
Then he goes on to say that he shot this woman.  The baby wasn't hurt and apart from you identifying the woman, you didn't do anything else.  Do you recall this incident?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes, I do.

MR LUBBE: Is this the incident that you initially thought and confused yourself with that of Tiki Tilli Malaza and on which you pleaded guilty?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes, it is.

MR LUBBE: You will see, Mr Chairman, on page 122, that this lady's name is also Tilli, towards the end of that page.
	Now can you also give to the Committee a brief description please, of what happened here.
MR SEEMISE
"Mrs Nkosi was one of the leaders of the Women's League of the ANC at Ermelo.  This information I received from Noah Mxobogazi.  He then issued an instruction that she should be killed.  She was also on the list of the people who were to be targeted by Mr Hlongwane.
		On that day we were at Mr Maseko's home where Mxobogazi resided.  It was myself, Charles Maseko, Mxobogazi.  Mxobogazi then informed us that we should go and look for Mrs Nkosi and kill her.  We left, proceeded to Skoonplaas where she resided.   When we arrived I pointed out the house to Sugar, but we did not go in, we passed by.  Before we went very far from the house we met her on the road.  She was carrying a baby on her back.  
		I then informed Hlongwane that this was indeed Mrs Nkosi.  I then passed, went on.  She was standing next to a bakkie, speaking to a person.  inside the vehicle.  Mr Hlongwane remained there and fired one shot.  Thereafter he ran to me and informed me that he had shot her in the face and was certain that she was dead.  
		We then left for  Charles Maseko's house and on our arrival, informed Mr Mxobogazi that we had completed the task.  He was also pleased at the news and congratulated us on the job well done."

MR LUBBE: You referred to a person by the name of Sugar, is that in fact Israel Hlongwane?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes, it is Mr Hlongwane.

MR LUBBE: Now turning to page 125 and 126:  The Attempted Murder of Mr Crackit(?).  Paragraph 6.6.  This instance deals with an attack on an ANC member by the name of Crackit, and according to the evidence of Mr Hlongwane, he took you along to point and identify the house of this Mr Crackit.  Towards the bottom he says - approximately nine lines from the bottom
"Therefore I took China, who pointed out the house to me.  In the house - it was a big house, when you enter the home the gate is standing directly to the entrance to the garage.  China explained that it is a grown-up man who has hair.  We left Noah's place and we were going to do both the operations on the same night.
			We left iZikumplazi after shooting Ms Nkosi, and that particular night we went to Astansia.  We didn't first get into the house, we went out to confirm if he's there, and they found it and Christina confirmed that she was there, and I therefore entered into the shop and China went down to stand at the corner."
Do you recall this incident?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes, I do recall the incident, but Mr Hlongwane made a mistake in saying that we did that operation on the same day as the Nkosi operation, it was on different occasions.

MR LUBBE: It wasn't on the same night?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: No, it was not.

MR LUBBE: Can you also briefly describe to the Committee the background of this incident.
MR SEEMISE
"Mr Hlongwane's task was to kill ANC members.  From the information I received from Mr Mxobogazi, Mr Crackit was also an ANC member and therefore had to be killed.  Crackit lived on the same street as Bongani Kaba.  On that day we left from Charles Maseko's home, proceeded to the house, but we did not go into the house first.  We initially went to Kaba's home and found his mother Christina at home, who informed us that Crackit was around.  She had seen him earlier on at his Spaza shop.
		We then left Kaba's home and I went and stood in the street and Sugar proceeded into the house.  I heard four or five shots from the house and saw Sugar coming out of the house running.  He came to me and informed me that he had shot him and it looked likely that he was going to die.  That was because of the seriousness of these injuries. 
		He also informed me that somebody had tried to fire back at him from inside the house.  We then proceeded to Mxobogazi and informed him that we had completed the task and he was pleased.  On the following day, Mxobogazi informed us that he had not died but was injured and hospitalised."

MR LUBBE: Now we move on to paragraph 6.7:  The Attack on an ANC member in Kati Township.  You say in your affidavit, Exhibit A
"I vaguely recall this incident, but is willing to confirm my involvement as related by Mr Hlongwane.  I note that the deceased person's name is Jackson Kubeka, but I have no knowledge as such."
	Mr Chairperson, you will not from the record, the bundle, that initially Mr Hlongwane indicated to the Committee that the deceased's name was Willie Frans Strydom, on page 127, but eventually after an adjournment he was notified by a representative of the deceased that the correct name was Jackson Kubeka.  That you will find in line 5 of page 130, and that it is in fact not Mr Strydom.
	Now Mr Seemise, do you recall this incident where a person by the name of Mr Kubeka was killed?

JOSIAS SEEMISE: Yes, I do.