Amnesty Hearings — Richards Bay — 1998-04-23

MR STEWART: (...indistinct) my calculations are not mistaken you were sixteen years old at the time that you were taken for that training in Caprivi. Is that right?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: No further questions thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Stewart. Mr Moloi do you have any questions?

MR MOLOI: Just a single question thank you Mr Chairman. How long did you stay at Esikoweni?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: If I remember well I think I spent about a year. I think I did spend a year.

MR MOLOI: (...indistinct) all these attacks were done in the space of just that period of time?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: It is not true.

MR MOLOI: The incidents in Esikoweni?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I do not remember the year in which I arrived at Esikoweni.

MR MOLOI: (...indistinct) an indication of the frequency at which these attacks or operations took place? Was it on a weekly basis or would there be space of time lapse in between one attack to another? And more or less how often would you say these took place?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Maybe a week would lapse before another operation was carried out but normally they would not follow too closely on each other.

MR MOLOI: Are you in a position to estimate more or less the number of people that were either injured or killed in these attacks?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: In that regard I will say when you fire a gun you cannot be certain how many people would be hit. So I cannot really certify or be certain about the number of people who were injured or killed.

MR MOLOI: No further questions thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Motata any questions?

MR MOTATA: Yes thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Dlamini I want you to have regard to page 377 which would be paragraph 5 of your affidavit. It would be right at the beginning.

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I found it.

MR MOTATA: There are four names there; Watum Talani, Dan Molefe, Mosa Nxkhulu, Nkosinate Sibisi. You see those names?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes I do.

MR MOTATA: You referred to them as youths were they the same age as yourself?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: They were older than me.

MR MOTATA: You say they are or as at the time you deposed to this affidavit they were still members of the KwaZulu police force. Am I understanding you to say that?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I do not know how the statement taker wrote this statement. I know these people from Mpumalanga and Hammersdale, we were together at Caprivi before they became members of the KwaZulu police. They only became members of the KwaZulu police after their Caprivi training. But I do know them from Hammersdale. They were older than me.

MR MOTATA: (...indistinct) fact is within the KwaZulu police to engage people as at the age of sixteen to be police?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I would not be able to explain in that regard because I do not know the procedure concerned in the recruiting of policemen. So I would not be able to explain that.

MR MOTATA: Now let's return to you joining the IFPSA Youth. I take it you joined the IFP because you agreed with the policy of the IFP. Would not I be right in so saying?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is correct.

MR MOTATA: Now in your oral evidence you said for instance you were given lessons about Inkatha, you were taught about Inkatha. Did you not know enough of Inkatha before you joined them?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I will say I knew about the policies of Inkatha at the time.

MR MOTATA: Give me clarity here Mr Dlamini? You say Mandlunduna that is Dalukolo Luthuli who was the political commissar gave you lectures in politics, you recall there saying so?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes that is true.

MR MOTATA: What politics was that? Because you belonged to a political party, what politics was he teaching you?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: We were taught about the objectives of the IFP, what it was and what its objectives were and what it was about and also the fact the IFP was a non-violent organisation.

MR MOTATA: Thank you Mr Dlamini. Thank you Mr Chairman I have got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Motata. Mrs Khampepe do you have any questions?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes Mr Chairperson. I just need some clarification from Mr Dlamini. Mr Dlamini in your oral testimony before this committee today you have stated that after Mr Gomede had been killed Mr Mkhize obtained petrol from the engine of the car and doused the body of the late Mr Gomede with petrol. I want to know whether the statement which appears in your affidavit at page three nine, nine (399) where you state that after the body had been left lying of Mr Gomede you proceeded to the premises in the Danford area of Mr Silas Sthele, who was the chairperson of the Inkatha Youth Brigade in that area. Where you requested and you received a can containing five litres of petrol from Mr Sthele and that you used that petrol to set Mr Gomede alight. Now which of the two versions should we accept? Because you have given a different version in your testimony today.

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I would like to explain. Nate was shot at Port Danford. From there we went to Mr Silas Sthele's house who resided in Port Danford. And we requested petrol and he gave this to us. And we went back and set Nate's body alight. That is what I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry please settle down?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Is the evidence then that the petrol which was used to set Mr Nate alight obtained from the engine of the car not true but false?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I would like to explain that this happened a long time ago and I do not remember exactly if indeed we removed or got petrol from the car or we received it from Silas Sthele. But I do know that we set his body alight using the petrol.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Dlamini you have sat in these proceedings for two weeks almost. You have heard the evidence of all the applicants who have testified before this committee giving the evidence that the petrol that was used to douse the body of the late Mr Gomede was obtained from the engine of the car. Have you not had a chance, have you not given yourself an opportunity to reflect particularly on that aspect of this incident?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: As I mentioned before the writing of these statements was a rigorous exercise. It could happen that I also made a mistake here. If I now reflect back I think we got the petrol from the car that we were using at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Please be quiet?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Dlamini on page 398 with regard to incident number 7 you have stated that you decided at a particular stage to carry out the elimination of Mr Gomede and that was when you were at Eshowe ...

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: Yes I do remember.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Now what I wanted to know is at that stage had you been advised by Mr Mkhize that you would be conducting the elimination of Mr Gomede? Was that the only time or had you been advised before getting to Eshowe that you would be conducting the elimination of Mr Nate Gomede?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: As I have mentioned before after we aborted our mission at the hospital we discussed that there was another target that had to eliminated, Nate Gomede. We then went to fetch him and I did not ask questions about why he was being targeted or had to be killed. What I knew was that he was an ANC member.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Dlamini you were merely a foot soldier taking instructions from the likes of Mr Mkhize. Is that so?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: That is correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You would not be able to say whether there had been any plans before going to Eshowe with regard to the elimination of Mr Gomede?

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: I do not think that there were other plans. We were just going for our targets.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I do not understand that response. Are you saying that it is not possible (...intervention)

DAVID ZHELI DLAMINI: There were no other plans that we had been given.