Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1997-02-18

MR KNIPE: If it is so  and again this is - this is not personal knowledge it's going on what has been related to me and bits that I've heard before the Commission.  If it is so that this Cell has been infiltrated - I would have endeavoured to make pro active arrests.  
 In other words I would have been fearful of allowing the planned action to have taken place - I believe that the planned action was very high risk.  If it is so that two Askari's had become acquainted with the desperado's that it should not have been impossible to affect pro active arrest. 
 If I understand your question correctly.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Yes I understand perfectly in fact it is my view also and I think this is what the panel has been trying to say that if the Askari's had been involved and the policemen who were responsible for planning the operation, there was a way of arresting the seven men without shooting - now shooting them in the way that they did.

MR KNIPE: But again you know it all - I don't have those [indistinct] but if the - if the scenario is that Askari's had infiltrated the Cell then I do believe that it should  not have been impossible to affect pro active arrest.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you I agree with you.  One of the things you said to Mr Ntsebeza the Chairperson is that you  couldn't express your view in a court of law [intervention]

MR KNIPE: No.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Well can I - can you allow me to paraphrase because what you said is on record I will paraphrase the Chairperson was asking you questions about what you said and what you should have said in a court of law and your response was that it was something to do with the realities of the time.
 And I think that you are saying a bit more than something that relates to your personal position and your personal career and I just want your comment, I am wondering if in fact you not also saying that you not making reference to the difficulties of policeman to - or police officers to express their views but to also go according to their conscience - in other words you - I am wondering if you are perhaps not suggesting that the realities of the time made it difficult for people in the Force to stand by their conscience and by their moral beliefs - I am wondering if that's not what you saying.

MR KNIPE: Mr Chairman end of Tape 12, side A ...  with my statement.  I have a clean departmental record, but I was suspended for expressing my opinion.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I  understand that, what I am - you were expressing is you, I am not challenging your statement at all.  I wish you to understand that, you were expressing an opinion and I am similarly wondering whether in fact you are not expressing a further opinion and saying that it was difficult for police officers to do something that was consistent with what their moral beliefs were or with what they believed in their conscience, is that what you suggesting?

MR KNIPE: I don't - I don't believe that it - there was any prevention upon a policeman seeing a colleague stealing money and arresting him - openly killing someone - I don't think we were ever hampered in doing that.  But in the Force of the past, it was very dangerous to criticise the Security Police.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Exactly - so that difficulty reflects in fact in the way in which it was then difficult for you in a court of law to go according to your beliefs you stated  in your statements that you a man of believe of principal and you were concerned about some of the things that were happening within this investigation.
 But it was difficult for you because the expectations that prevailed at the time, did you not encourage you to express your independent view.  In other words did not encourage you to act according to your conscience.

MR KNIPE: Your statement is correct to a degree, it is not - it is not as strongly as what you put it - I understand what you say, I think there were limitations placed upon how far one could sometimes go within a certain ambit.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I suppose maybe I should just tell you where I am coming from, I often wonder about the general mind sets of  law enforcers or people who were working for law enforcement.  I just often sometimes wonder what their mind sets was.  And I was driven to my question by some of the comments you made and wondered if perhaps this is what was happening with you every time that you were caught up in a system that expected you to behave in a particular way while in fact you had other views or believes.

MR KNIPE: I don't know if I am answering your question correctly madam but I think - I think the realities of the situation were that we were involved in a low intensity war - people of South Africa inhabitants were seen as the enemy, we were not policing in a classical sense.  People were perceived as being an enemy - not as being an criminal and there is a difference.
 And - and there was strong indoctrination of course there was as on the other side there was indoctrination.  The tragedy of South African society  was basically that, surely and of course that affected people from all walks of life, we all had perceptions which might have been wrong.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: You have answered my question thank  you - I will move on to another question.  In your work was it the first time in your work as - in your unit - was it the first time, was the investigation you were doing with this case, the first time you involved in an investigation.

MR KNIPE: No sorry I don't understand the question.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: You - you were an investigator of this case after the shooting at Guguletu, you were one of the investigators.

MR KNIPE: No I think your interpretation and mine of an investigator might be different.  I arrived on the scene and I have reasonable [indistinct]  and experience from the scene and one of the things that I have tried to make it my duty to do is to have professional conduct on a scene of crime wearing gloves, putting Exhibits in plastic bags etcetera, etcetera.  
 Those are things that I have tried to implement throughout my career in the Police Force and that is what I did there.  But Fanie Brits was appointed on the scene by I think the divisional head of the CID who was then General Van der Westhuizen as the investigator, I merely helped him to do the task as described and then on own initiative washed the blood off the street.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So you were assisting the investigator.

MR KNIPE: That would be correct.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: My question really was whether you had been involved in investigations in other cases other than the case of the Guguletu 7 - that was my question.

MR KNIPE: Sorry I misunderstood you - all my life.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: All your life - during investigations do you also take - make sure that police officers and other people were involved - who are involved in a crime submits their statements, do you also - are you also responsible for that?

MR KNIPE: As the investigating officer?

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: As an investigator?

MR KNIPE: Yes.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So you would - you would make sure that people make statements.

MR KNIPE: Yes I - you know I think one is entitled to use a degree of common sense in that for example in the St James Church I think there were 1,500 people in the church the night of the atrocity we didn't take statements from all 1,500 people.  I think you tried to bring people that are directly involved so the question of statement taking is broad but also narrow at the same time, you know you can't - you can't take statements from everyone if you at a rugby game and something goes wrong you don't take statements from all 40,000 people.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I just wanted to establish if you would take statements.