Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 2000-02-04

MR NOMPOZOLO: And when you knew that it might be used at the scene, the scene you knew that if it had to be used, it's not going to be on a calm situation, it might be on the situation where there is no proper control of the situation.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No Sir, when using rocket launcher, firstly I must clarify this, the heavy points are being employed by myself, which means the rocket launchers and the other guns and the motors are being controlled by the regimental sergeant major.  No one can give an order, or can fire those weapons without our order.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now was it part of the briefing before you left the base that the people who are armed with rocket launchers which I believe there were about three people who were armed with rocket launchers, were they informed that:  "You cannot use those until you are under specific instructions to do so"?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: They have gone through the course and they fully understand that these weapons cannot be fired.  Every soldier has been given an order to fire.  You cannot just fire at your own, you must be given an order to fire.

MR NOMPOZOLO: So, would you concede that the situation was a chaotic situation and sort-of a moving scene there at the scene?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: It was not - ja it was a chaotic scene, but to employ it, they have weapons, that was not meant for it, that was not the time to operate on those weapons.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Who was your senior you were reporting to?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: It was Col van der Bank.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Did you, on that day, report to Col van der Bank that:  "Mr Gonya has unlawfully used a rocket launcher?"

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, when we were doing the debriefing, Col van der Bank, I told him, he asked who gave the order to fire those people at Parliament and at Fort Hare Branch.  I said:  "No one" and then I also told that Gonya, because we thought that was the grenades that were exploded from the masses, I said - he asked me that, I said:  "No, it is this Rifleman Gonya who has fired these launchers without my orders."

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now according to Mr Gonya, there at the base he informed you that he has used two grenades and that was the first time you learned that he has used the rocket launcher himself.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, no, that's why I was saying that Maj Zulu, is my  key witness, because he tells me that - he use a vulgar language - "This fucking tube has fired" and I also said to him:  "Why you have fired, why, who gave you an order?"

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now there at the scene, I am instructed that the situation was very chaotic and you were not in control of the situation.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I don't understand.  Can you elaborate?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes.  Mr Gonya tells me that there at the scene, after you had said they must fire for the third time, they've started firing and you were up and down trying to communicate with the radios and all that and all that and you couldn't monitor properly the situation and that's when he saw that he can use only two rocket launchers, I'm sorry, two grenades, which was what he believes stopped the danger from coming to them.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, I can say, Sir, it's my belief, there was no situation that was chaotic, the situation was under control, only when the people were firing, that was a chaotic situation.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Which people were firing?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Those who were deployed in parliament and the Fort Hare Branch.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, did you write a report there at the army that Mr Gonya did not obey the orders?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, I didn't write a report because Col van der Bank told me that no, everybody who has fired, there will be a Board of Inquiry that will be convened, that was the situation.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Was it on the same day?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: It was on the second day.

MR NOMPOZOLO: On the second day?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, when Mr Skrube was on the scene and to us the troops who have fire ...(intervention)

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now after everything had happened on that day, were you not supposed to write a report about what happened and to also write a report about those who put the army in disrepute by not following their orders?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Sir, I verbally speak with my senior authority, Col van der Bank and then he said a Board of Inquiry will be convened, so there was no necessity to write a report and then, the report which I made was verbally during that day because the next day we were also deployed on that same spot.  We withdraw at about 1 o'clock from the spot.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it a normal procedure that after an incident of that nature has happened, reports would be made verbally and those who you believe they had acted unlawfully will not be charged, is that the normal procedure?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No the normal procedure, we must write a report, but at that stage Sir, we haven't write a report, it was verbal.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And in fact at no stage a report was written.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: According to this incident, there was no report written.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And in fact the situation of Mr Gonya was a unique situation in the sense that he used a heavy calibre armoury against people who were coming, therefore according to you he acted unlawful, therefore it warranted that either he can even be charged criminally, not so?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: If I can have you clearly, Sir, you said Gonya has said the next day he reported to my office?

MR NOMPOZOLO: No.  No, no.  No.  Let's first answer this question.  All I'm saying, Gonya acted unlawfully in the circumstances as you have said, now there would even be a possibility of him being criminally charged, yet you did not write a report about that and hand it over to the relevant authority so that they can see what they can do about it.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I think that my report is there with that Board of Inquiry because I was the first person to go to Mr Skrube and to testify about what happened there on the scene.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes.  No, let's leave alone the Board of Inquiry because the point is, the Board of Inquiry was going to establish what happened there but this one, it's an isolated incident of a person who acted unlawfully, not as a group, but as an individual because he used a heavy calibre which he was not supposed to use.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, the Board of Inquiry was being convened, Sir, I have no other answer on that because we didn't write a report, that's why I was saying.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Nompozolo.  The following day when you were redeployed, was Mr Gonya included in the group of soldiers that were to be under your command?  Was he again part of the group?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.  We have not withdrawn because all of the group that was deployed have stayed there until about 12 o'clock and then we withdraw to see that the situation is calm, everything.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but was he directly under your command the following day when you were redeployed?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Were you not concerned about the behaviour of this man who just goes on his own and does things he's not been ordered to do?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: That's why I say we have confronted Gonya, when Maj Zulu spotted him, that he was firing.  We say:  "What were you doing?  Who has given you an order to fire?"  And then, when Mr Skrube came, I told Mr Skrube who had fired with my instructions, who had not fired with my instruction and then the Board was being convened.  Yes, I was worried because - but I haven't take a stop or write a report.  I was worried about the situation.  Why he uses this - to employ a launcher.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.