Amnesty Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

ANDILE SHICEKA: What's in the statement?

ADV PRIOR: I'll read paragraph 17 again, and this is the statement that was prepared by your counsel
"When we arrived in town we went to the restaurant but there was too much movement outside the restaurant.  While looking for another target I heard music noise.  I went to inspect and found many white dancing inside this disco.  I reported that we can attack there.  Tanda then gave the order that we attack.  Only Tanda and I went to attack and one remained in the car and another was to give us firing cover as it became necessary.  When we got there the burglar door was locked.  It was not locked on my first inspection.  We stood just outside the door and fired inside.  The attack lasted about three seconds.  We got into the car and sped away"
Do you understand that and do you accept that that is what you told your counsel?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.  I would just need some clarification.  Aren't you talking about the restaurant?

ADV PRIOR: Mr Shiceka, I don't want to engage you in any debate on this, it just seems to me from reading that paragraph of your statement that you confirm you did say, that there's no mention of any danger to african people being injured if you attacked the restaurant.  I just want to know, do you have any reason or can you explain why you simply never said that to your counsel or why doesn't it appear in your statement?  There may be a reason why it doesn't appear, maybe you can give us that reason.

ANDILE SHICEKA: Are we talking about what happened at the disco or outside the restaurants?  Because where there were many people, it's in front of the restaurant.  I'm getting confused when you talk about the disco and also come back to talk about the restaurant at the same time.

ADV PRIOR: Mr Shiceka, I'm referring to the restaurant, I'm referring to what appears in your statement that you've confirmed a short while ago in fact you did say and I'll read it to you again.  The first sentence reads
"When we arrived in town we went to the restaurant but there was too much movement outside the restaurant"
and that's where you leave the restaurant alone, you don't say: there were too many african people there, there was a possibility that they might get injured.  You simply say there was too much movement.  In other words there was too much activity there and that's why you looked for another target.
	My question is, can you explain why you did not, in that paragraph when you referred to the restaurant, simply say: "We didn't attack the restaurant because african people might have got injured"?  Do you understand what I'm asking for?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I don't understand you.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Prior, maybe one can put the question this way.
	Mr Shiceka, did you tell Mr Arendse why you did not open fire at the restaurant?  Did you give him the reason for not shooting there?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct, I did.

ADV SANDI: Mr Prior is trying to say to you that that does not appear from the statement your lawyer prepared for you.

ANDILE SHICEKA: I did give a statement to my lawyer.  There were questions which were asked.  I explained that there were movements in front of the restaurant.  He wants me to clarify as to who was moving up and down, it's just that when we mean - in Xhosa, when we say people were moving up and down, we normally refer to black people moving up and down.  That is ...[indistinct]

ADV SANDI: Can you tell us everything you said to your lawyer about the restaurant?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Sir, we arrived in a Cressida Toyota car.  Tanda started to get out to do some surveillance.  I went out, I looked around the place and I came back.  The car was not far from the restaurant.  In front of the restaurant there were many black people, there were also white people moving up and down.  I went back to the car to report to Tanda that the situation is not good, we are not going to attack this place because we could injure black people therefore we left the place.

ADV SANDI: You said all that to your lawyer?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Yes, I told Mr Arendse.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'll move on.
	I want to refer you to page 64 of the bundle and a statement which was made by Dube who apparently was the driver of your vehicle.  With permission of the Committee I want to possibly just put the whole paragraph to the witness.  
	Unfortunately or - I'll retract that, the statement is in Afrikaans, I understand there may be some difficulty with the - would the Committee allow me to paraphrase or to translate or to put the sense to the witness?  Page 64 of the bundle, it's paragraph 8 of Dube's statement.  Maybe I'll just put then the essential part Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the interpreters will interpret for him.

ADV PRIOR: I understand that there's - it's indicated that there'd be a problem with the Afrikaans.  Maybe I can just read it out.  I mean the Committee is au fait and I can then translate it and if that's a fair translation of the words then I can put it to the witness.  From the middle of the paragraph Mr Chairman.
"Reg oor die bakkery het die man langs my weer gese: "Stop hier moet ons begin werk".  Daar is 'n restaurant/steakhouse langs die bakkery wat vol mense was op daardie stadium.  Een van die drie agter het egter gese: "Nee, hier is te feel polisiemanne"
Sorry, I'll repeat that:
"Hier is te veel polisiemanne".  Die mense het die hele tyd in Xhosa gepraat.  By die verkeerslig het die man voor aan my gese om links te draai.  Net verby die verkeerslig kon ek die geraas van musiek hoor.  Net verby die gebou met die musiek het die man voor my - langs my gese ek moet stop"
	Now, it would appear from Mr Dube's statement, that when you stopped at the restaurant or steakhouse someone said in the vehicle that there were too many policemen there, whether that was in the restaurant or outside the restaurant.
	And as a result of that the vehicle was then driven off and then turned at the robots and stopped where the discotech was.  What is your comment about that?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I can't comment, maybe that's what Dube was thinking at the time.  Thats not what was in our minds.

ADV PRIOR: The question essentially is, did anyone in the vehicle say: "No, we can't attack here there are too many policemen"?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I don't remember anybody saying that because the person who got out of the car is myself.

ADV PRIOR: Alright.  You say you also were armed with a grenade, a hand grenade?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: And was Tanda, your colleague Mr Tanda also armed with a hand grenade, that was an M26 grenade?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: And he also had a rifle grenade?  That is what he referred to as a launcher grenade?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's correct.

ADV PRIOR: And had you and he discussed that at the discotech or at the restaurant, whichever was to be attacked, that the grenades would be used?  In other words they would be launched or thrown into the crowd of people at those two venues?

ANDILE SHICEKA: We were going to use the rifle grenade when we get attacked.  The two hand grenades were supposed to be thrown into the area or whether the disco, wherever we're going to attack.

ADV PRIOR: I want to just get clarity in my mind, were the targets selected to be attacked together, sorry, not together but both targets were to be attacked on that same evening or was the discotech an alternative target should the attack on the restaurant not be able to be carried out?

ANDILE SHICEKA: That's not the case.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, well what is the position then?

ANDILE SHICEKA: We had two targets selected, if we had a problem with attacking one we will go for the second option.  We've already done reconnaissance and all of that.