Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-11

MATTHEW LECORDIER: We walked to Greta's car.

MR RICHARD: Where was Greta's car.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: It was parked about a block away.  As we were approaching, that's when I noticed there's Greta's car parked here.

MR RICHARD: Now when you say you walked about a block, did you walk fast or slowly?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I'd say it was normal, the way we were walking.

MR RICHARD: At a normal walking speed?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR RICHARD: Did you have a chance to observe what was happening around you?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Can your repeat that.

MR RICHARD: Did you have a chance, from the moment you got out of the car to the moment that you got into Greta's car, to observe what was happening around you?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: When you say "what was happening", I'm at a loss here.  What was happening was normal.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just be a bit more specific, Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Once you were out of the car and walking towards wherever Greta's car was, as you ultimately found out, is it not correct that you then had an opportunity to see firstly where what you knew was a car bomb was parked and the environment it was in?

JUDGE PILLAY: Mr Richard, are you talking about whether he saw any people in the vicinity?

MR RICHARD: That's the next question.

JUDGE PILLAY: Well I think we can safely say on a Saturday night in Durban beachfront, there were quite a few people there, the bomb hadn't gone off yet.

CHAIRPERSON: Just ask him directly what you want to ask him.

MR RICHARD: Did you see people around on the beachfront near where you had parked what you now knew to be a car bomb?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I saw people near where we had parked this car.

MR RICHARD: Where were they?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Geez ...

MR RICHARD: Were they in front of the hotel, across the road or ...(intervention)

MATTHEW LECORDIER: People were walking around in the area, we even walked past some of the people.

MR RICHARD: Did you notice any people in and around the Parade Hotel?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I noticed there were people around, I did not take note of exactly where they were or where they were going to.

MR RICHARD: Were there a few people or many people?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I can't say, it was a long time ago.

MR RICHARD: Now once in the car did you say anything to Mr McBride or to Ms Narkedien?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No, I did not.

MR RICHARD: Did they say anything to you?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Not that I recall.

MR RICHARD: At paragraph 15 you make the comment
"Greta was smartly dressed on that day"

CHAIRPERSON: It was changed when it was read to "night".

MR RICHARD: "... that night".  Why did you make that comment?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Because I recall she was smartly dressed that night.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the import of the question was, why do you mention it in your statement?  Has it got any significance at all, if not why did you mention it?  Why did you put it in if you think it had any significance?  That is what Mr Richard is wanting to know.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: The thing is, from what I'd known of Greta she wasn't a person to dress smartly and that's why it stood out that night.

MR RICHARD: At your trial ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, he wasn't tried as far as I know.

MR RICHARD: Sorry.  At Mr McBride's trial you told a version different from this version.  Did you ever sit down with the police and tell them exactly this, what you told the Committee today?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I tried to, but they didn't want to accept it and they kept threatening me and beating me and asking me to say the things that they wanted me to say and to add to my statement.

CHAIRPERSON: So, your answer Mr Lecordier is - is your answer that you did tell them what you've told us today, but they didn't you, or you tried to but they wouldn't let you?   What, I didn't quite ...(intervention)

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: That you did actually tell them, but they ...(intervention)

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I did tell them, but they didn't want to accept it.

CHAIRPERSON: They didn't want to accept what you said.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR RICHARD: I don't think it takes us any further.  I've no further questions, subject to ...
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I've cross-examined.  There are two aspects just on, one on the Klein and one on the Magoo's.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Mr Lecordier, hearing your evidence, the attack on the Klein home was the first mission that you'd carried out where you had identified the target and were going to kill people, that was your evidence, was it?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, that's right.

UNKNOWN: We've also heard evidence that the military act had to be politically tuned, it had to serve some purpose.  What's just bothering me is that because of your relative newness in the unit, your decision to attack and kill people, I would have thought that maybe you would have mentioned it or possibly cleared it with Mr McBride, the Commander.  Is there any particular reason why you didn't?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: When I was recruited by comrade Robert McBride, I was instructed to obey orders and to carry them out as a soldier and that is what I did.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I understand the carrying out of the orders on an instruction, but the actual target selection, I'm just worried that in a sense the missions followed a particular schedule, it was left to you to target people.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Did you not think it important in those circumstances to maybe clear the target with Mr McBride?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: The thing is I wasn't allowed to discuss with him who I'm going to attack.

UNKNOWN: Was that on a need-to-know basis?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

UNKNOWN: And he didn't need to know who you were going to attack?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: He didn't need to know who I was going to attack.

UNKNOWN: Just one last aspect on the Why Not incident.  At page 6, paragraph 6 of your statement, Exhibit S, something has just struck me.  All three of you at some stage went down to the Marine Parade in Greta's car, is that correct?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

UNKNOWN: You left the blue Cortina behind with the explosives.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

UNKNOWN: No-one was guarding it?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No.

UNKNOWN: When the vehicle was taken to the bottom end of Pine Street you were then asked to guard the vehicle, is that correct?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

UNKNOWN: Are you sure of that?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I'm sure of that.

UNKNOWN: Was there any reason why it wasn't guarded at the earlier stage?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I don't know.  The thing is like I said, I acted on a need-to-know basis, I did not question my Commander.

UNKNOWN: When you left the blue Cortina at the Hyper House and Home on the first occasion, was it locked or unlocked?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I think it was locked.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Mr Dehal, do you have any re-examination?

MR DEHAL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, very briefly.
	Mr Lecordier, during the trial, McBride's trial, you said you were given your statement on various occasions during recesses, tea recesses, lunch recesses, to read.  Was the entire statement given to you or just parts of it?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: It was the entire statement, but I was made to read parts of it.

MR DEHAL: Now you recall there was one occasion when you were cross-examined by Mr McBride's lawyer and it became apparent that whilst you were under cross-examination your statement was given to you during a recess, whilst under cross-examination, for you to read.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I recall.

MR DEHAL: And there was much argument in the trial and you then admitted that the statement was given to you to read.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.