Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, whatever Mr Bizos's speculation, I instructed Mr Walus to target Mr Chris Hani.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Whatever else he did he must be asked why he did it.

GEORGE BIZOS: "And after I reconnoitred his house once, I thought the old goat was not worth it. Joe Slovo, priority number two on the list, address was not available, and I decided to concentrate on priority number three on the list, Chris Hani."
This, of course, is completely inconsistent with your evidence and the answer to the question posed by the learned Judges?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It could have been prompted by a volume intake of alcohol as was testified, Mr Chairman.  (Laughter).

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh, I see.  (Laughter).  You are prepared to speculate about that.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I am just offering it as a suggestion, I am not speculating.  He will, he will answer the question, I understand.

GEORGE BIZOS: Incidentally, did he ever utter any complaints against the police to you?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Well, he told me how he had been treated, Mr Chairman, and he told me that at one stage he couldn't remember how he got back to his cell, and he told me that he made no statements to them.

GEORGE BIZOS: He told you that he made no statements to them?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: He didn't tell you what is recorded on page 306 -"Captain ..."
Bottom of the page -
"Captain, please don't go and arrest Clive Derby-Lewis also now. He is a very big friend of mine, I will take everything on myself. I was alone when I shot Hani. Clive and I only planned the murder together."
He is a great friend of yours?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: He didn't tell me that, Mr Chairman.  But I appreciate his friendship.

GEORGE BIZOS: Especially if he was going to cover up for you.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, that is speculation, sorry.

MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson, for record purposes, that is not Mr Walus' statements, that is Capt Deetliefs, and I took it up with my learned friend, Mr Mpshe, that there are cassettes that refers to interviews with Mr Derby-Lewis and it also refers to the specific statement, but up to this point we have not received it.  It is part of the questioning. Just to test the accuracy of this, we will have to look at that.  So it is not accepted that if you remain quiet that it is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: It's reported in the first person as if it were a statement made, but we will prove the circumstances under which -and once you raised, this is raised on your behalf, what did you say the name of the colonel was that you sent it to?  That you sent the letter of thanks to?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: The letter I directed to the head of the uniform branch of Benoni Police Station, Mr Chairman, and that was to the best of my knowledge, was a gentleman by the name of Colonel Roos - R-O-O-S.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you for that clarification.  Did you - were you regularly asked by the people in charge of the cells and of the police station, whether you had any complaints?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I can't recall them asking me once, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: You can't?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: No.  And I wasn't bothered about it either.

GEORGE BIZOS: If there are references in the Occurrences Book, contemporaneously written whilst you were there, that you specifically said that you had no complaints, will you say that those entries are false?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I will say they are false, most definitely, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And we will produce the original letter tomorrow, and you may have to rethink as to who you wrote it to and how you sent it, Mr Derby-Lewis.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That is not possible, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, well, don't anticipate it.
	Now I want to deal with your wife's statement in relation to this list, please.  Firstly, in R4, page 161, the second part of paragraph 80.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Page 161, Mr Chairman?

GEORGE BIZOS: 161.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: The second part of paragraph 80.

GEORGE BIZOS: "The next day it was confirmed in the Press that Kuba had been arrested. Clive then said that it appeared to him as if Kuba had been set-up because it was a rather amateurish job and Kuba had not, for example, changed the number plates and so forth."
Did you say that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman ...

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon, did you say what your wife says you said?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: Mr Chairman, I am not prepared to comment on anything contained in my wife's statement, because I have in my possession here a statement by one Johannes Hendrik de Waal. I don't know whether it has been discovered to the Committee.  But this statement, Mr Chairman, from the information on this statement it is obvious to me that Captain De Waal was lying about certain aspects of his treatment of my wife during her detention. One of the points that I picked up clearly, was a point that she had no complaints, according to him, any day.  And suddenly, there was a problem where he said and my wife had to take her medication. Now if my wife had no complaints about illness, I don't understand what she had medication for, and in fact, she told me later that she had had, what she believed to be a minor heart attack in hospital, and as a result had to take medication, but there is nothing in this statement which says anything about that incident.

GEORGE BIZOS: We will look at that statement in due course, Mr Derby-Lewis.  Will you please listen to the question? Your wife has written and signed a statement
"The next day it was confirmed in the Press that Kuba had been arrested.  Clive then said that it appeared to him as if Kuba had been set-up because it was a rather amateurish job and Kuba had not, for example, changed the number plates and so forth."
I am only asking you to admit or deny the statement attributed to you by your wife.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: That information is correct, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: It is correct?  Oh, now we are getting somewhere, yes.  (Laughter).
	Now let us go to other - have you forgotten that you said that you never discussed changing number plates or anything like that?

MR DERBY-LEWIS: I didn't say that, Mr Chairman.  I said that Mr Walus was responsible for his own arrangements.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

MR DERBY-LEWIS: It came out in the court case.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, you said, very well, we will leave it at that.  I am going on to a new point, I don't know whether you want to continue, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  If you are going to embark on another line at this stage, this might be an appropriate time to adjourn.  We will adjourn now and resume at 09:30 tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS