Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-05

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I must have made a mistake with regards to Michael Ramakau.  It was myself, Hunter Ndlovo, Ntlantla Xinde and Victor Kheswa and Zwee, who was the driver.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I want to find out whether, are you saying that you made a mistake, where?  Where did you make this mistake?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think we misunderstood each other with the person who took the statement, Michael Ramakau was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: So you made a mistake or he made a mistake?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It must have been that person because I do not know anything about Michael Ramakau.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  So the person who took down the statement, on his own included the name of Michael Ramakau?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It must be that we misunderstood each other, Michael Ramakau was not present.

MR LOWIES: So how do you know that this statement is, or this name of Michael Ramakau is in your statement?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I heard you reading from the statement.

MR LOWIES: There's one puzzling aspect though, how would the person taking down the statement know of Michael Ramakau if he was not mentioned by you?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I'm saying, I may have made a mistake.  It is not the person who took the statement who made the mistake, but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, Mr Nosenga, I don't follow this explanation.  What you're being asked is, the person who took down this statement, how would he know of Michael Ramakau unless he was told by you?  That is what is being put to you, so what's your ...(intervention)

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I'm stating, I must have made a mistake.  It is possible that I made that mistake and he did not read the statement back to me.  I would have attempted to correct it if he had read it back to me.

CHAIRPERSON: So you think that you may have made a mistake and mentioned the name of Michael Ramakau?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.  Michael Ramakau had not been present.

CHAIRPERSON: But because the statement was not read to you, you didn't have the opportunity to correct that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: So in this case you are not blaming bad interpretation as you initially did, in this instance?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I have stated I must have made the mistake, and it was not read back to me after it had been taken.

MR LOWIES: Sorry, the last portion was not interpreted.  He spoke and nothing was interpreted.

INTERPRETER: He said that the statement was not read back to him after it had been taken.

MR LOWIES: Chair, is this an appropriate time to take the lunch adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the adjournment and come back at a quarter to two.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, you are reminded that you are still under oath.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Lowies?

MR LOWIES: (Cont)
	Thank you, Chairman.
	Mr Nosenga, if you look at your unsigned statement, at page 9 ...

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.

MR LOWIES: If you look at your unsworn statement, at page 9, you say in the last sentence of your statement
"I pleaded guilty and was defended by a pro deo counsel"
Do you see that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that's correct.

MR LOWIES: But with my earlier question this morning the impression was created - sorry, do you want to say something?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, the court found me guilty.

MR LOWIES: But the question is, earlier this morning I got the impression that you didn't know what pro deo counsel is.  Do you know what it is?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, ...(intervention)

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Will you please explain, I don't understand.

CHAIRPERSON: One has to give allowance to the fact that this affidavit, if it is that of Mr Nosenga, was not drafted by him, it was drafted by people who knew what they were talking about, using this term of pro deo.

MR LOWIES: I beg your pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: If a man says
"I didn't pay for my counsel"
... one infers that it probably must have been a pro deo.

MR LOWIES: I take the point, Chair.
	Now I would like to explain what happened after the attack, how did the attackers ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Have you come to the end of the statement?

MR LOWIES: No, Chair, I'm still busy, second paragraph.
	After the attack, how did the attackers congregate and what happened once the attack on Boipatong where residents were involved, was now completed?  Maybe I should be more specific and ask you firstly, how did you know that this is the end of the attack, we are now finished?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: From the shacks we went to the male/female hostel as well as children at Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: Sorry?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying, after the shack or after attacking the shacks we went to the Boipatong hostel, that is where we launched our last attack.  We came back and gathered and we went down the road that's going down next to the hostel.

MR LOWIES: ...(indistinct) you're now referring to, sorry?  The one that was attacked or the one, the KwaMadala Hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There's a mixed hostel at Boipatong, not KwaMadala Hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what is the name of that hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I just know it's a hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: You've been referring to Umkukweni.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to know, would this be Slovo Park?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is possible.  There are many trees actually in that area.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, yes.

MR LOWIES: So how was this hostel attacked?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: May the question please be repeated.

MR LOWIES: How as the hostel attacked?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: People were shot.  People who were standing outside were shot, but I did not shoot there, I only shot or fired shots at Slovo Park.  I only fired shots for the last time at the shacks.

MR LOWIES: So did you actually see whether these people at the hostel were hit by the bullets?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Some of them fled, crying and some were shot.  I heard people crying.

MR LOWIES: Did you actually see them fall?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did.

MR LOWIES: If you have to give an estimate, how many would you say?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know, I don't want to tell a lie.

MR LOWIES: No, but I'm asking you to give an estimate, which means you can be out.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, when a man says: "I don't know, I can't estimate", what more does he have to say?  Unless there is something that turns on the figure, of the figures that fell down.

MR LOWIES: Chair, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But he says he can't estimate.

MR LOWIES: I get the point, I'll rephrase.
	But you say that it's definitely people and not one person that fell down?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: You told us that figures fell down.  What Mr Lowies wants to find out from you is, these figures that were falling down, these were human beings?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, because some of them cried, screamed and started fleeing.

MR LOWIES: But the ones that fell down were more than one person?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There were several of them.  I cannot say exactly how many.

MR LOWIES: I want to put it to you, Sir, that this hostel was never attacked.  You are telling lies.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There are people who died there, I don't know how many.

MR LOWIES: And there was never any evidence prior to you giving evidence here today, that the hostel was attacked.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying the hostel was attacked.  It's a hostel right in Boipatong and from the hostel you can proceed to Slovo Park.  People died at that hostel.

MR LOWIES: If you could just bear with me please, Chairman.