Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

JUDGE WILSON: That can be arranged can't it, Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: It can be arranged, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: That our investigative unit will make contact with the Grootvlei Prison and ask to have access to the records relating to this prisoner.  When was he a prisoner there, when was this about?

MR NEMANE: May I direct the question to the applicant?

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

MR NEMANE: Do you recall the period during which you were a prisoner - the period during which you were in the prison hospital?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was on trial at that time.  I escaped whilst I was on trial.  From there the officials who arrested me, reported this matter to the hospital officals and they stressed that I shouldn't be allowed to go to hospital again because he had escaped, and they recorded that in my presence.

JUDGE WILSON: We know it was during the period while the trial was proceeding.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, just to respond to what the Chair has said, it can be arranged.  I did not fully understand what was being said.  But Mr Chairman, if it means going to the Grootvlei Prison and obtaining or having access to the documents therein, Mr Chairman, not to say that I am refusing that that should be done by the TRC, but I don't see any problem, anything that can stop the lawyer to have access to these documents, Mr Chairman, because the onus is on them, Mr Chairman.  Otherwise we will be bouncing the onus left and right, Mr Chairman. He has access to the prison as well in his capacity as a lawyer, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, I am not quite sure he will get the same co-operation from the prison authorities as the TRC would. I think we can, although we are not creating a precedent, I think we can in the circumstances, do a favour by causing our investigative unit to phone up and ask if they have hospital records available appertaining to the prisoner for this period.  This is the applicant who was a prisoner during this period, an awaiting-trial prisoner.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I won't take the matter any further, Mr Chairman, but I'm not satisfied ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: If we get that information it may be you can inform counsel to go and get a copy himself, but I think if we could find out, it will certainly make the initial enquiries, and ask them to make it available.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Sorry, Mr Nemane, what do you want to establish by this?   It will only show that he did escape and they will never show that he escaped as a result of an arrangement by the security police, isn't it?

MR NEMANE: That is correct, Mr Commissioner, but my - I believe that it would provide corroboration for the fact of an escape and if there was some difficulties with his credibility, there would be that objective evidence that he did escape, and to some extent it might assist in determining whether the escape was arranged with the security police in the sense that we know that he has been in prison for about four years now, and he appeared in court and he has not been charged with escape.

JUDGE WILSON: Was the escape, the attempted escape investigated?  Did any policeman come and take a statement from him?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, I escaped whilst I was under the guard of the South African Police Force official, but he did not charge me, but he did go and tell the colonel that he did try, but it did not work out because the securities caught me.  Col Coetzee said that he should not charge me but rather take me back to prison and he will make other means again.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, if I may be of some assistance.  You would have noticed that we did not dispute in our cross-examination the fact that he escaped. We are quite prepared to concede that he might have escaped, although we don't know, attempted to escape, although we don't know about it. So if that can circumvent the request for documents we will gladly make that concession.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, I think, as I understand the application, that the purpose of it, it is to show not only that he attempted to escape, but that there was official knowledge of this, that it was recorded on the Correctional Services records, but that nothing was done.  That is what you want to get, isn't it?

MR NEMANE: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Sorry, I don't know that you can go so far as to make that concession.  You don't represent every policemen.

MR VISSER: Well, Mr Chairman, I don't want to go on record with this, but it is our experience that when an attempted escape occurs, very seldom that a prosecution follows when there isn't an actual physical escape.  When he is caught with in the yard, Mr Chairman, it is very difficult to prove that he attempted to escape and that is the reason.

JUDGE WILSON: Well, we have been told he escaped, not in the yard, but under the custody of a policeman.  Right, carry on.

MR NEMANE: I want you to go back to the removal of the belongings of Mr Venter and the house at which the goods that were removed from Mr Venter were actually delivered.  Now was it agreed between yourself and Erasmus or any of your superiors, that you were to remove the furniture?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, in the report that we gave to Mr Coetzee, in Wilgerhof, we had not removed anything in the Venter house.  But he said we must just move some more things to make this as if it is a robbery.

MR NEMANE: Now at the time when you removed the watch from Mr Venter, had you at that stage decided that you are going to keep the watch for yourself?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, I was ripping off that watch so that he could see that something was done to him.

JUDGE WILSON: Who could see that something was done to him?

MR NEMANE: The investigating officers.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The investigating officers.

MR NEMANE: Do I understand you correctly if I say that you removed the watch not for purposes of keeping yourself, but for purposes of creating an artificial scene of robbery?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, it was supposed to be like that.  I took that watch from him and I went away.

MR NEMANE: Did you decide to remove the watch before you shot Mr Venter?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, I shot him first and then when he fell down I ripped off the watch and left.

MR NEMANE: Is it your evidence that you decided that the
watch would be the object to remove after you had shot Mr Venter?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was not my intention but I wanted this to look as a plain robbery.

MR NEMANE: You decided that you are going to take the watch to create the impression that this was a robbery?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, according to Mr Shaw's instructions, he said  I should operate like this.  He gave me that instruction directly.

MR NEMANE: Did you - my question then is, did you decide before you had actually shot him, that you are going to remove the watch or did you shoot him and thereafter made up your mind that the thing I must remove the watch to create a scene of robbery is the watch?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, Sir.

MR NEMANE: I think I am making two propositions.  You must choose one.  Did you decide after you had actually shot him that you are going to take the watch or did you decide before shooting him that you are going to take the watch?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The nature of the robbery was to take his watch and that they should think that he has been robbed of his watch.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you decide before you went there to shoot him that you were going to make it look like a robbery by taking his watch?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I decided that, and that is the thing that I saw that was on him.

MR NEMANE: Mr Chairman, I missed the last answer, I beg your pardon.

JUDGE WILSON: I decided because that was the thing that was on him.

MR NEMANE: When did you decide to remove the watch?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Before shooting him.

MR NEMANE: And what did you intend to do with the watch after removing it?