Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-17

MS THABETE: But it was your evidence that you actually saw this, you witnessed the struggle.  Would you know why he was shot at the back maybe?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: No, I would not know because the last time I witnessed this happening, it was when they were struggling for the firearm.  I cannot therefore say how he was shot from the back.

MS THABETE: It is also my instructions Mr Mononi, that the deceased never struggled with Xolani, instead what had happened is that the deceased was shot at the back and Captain Nkuna then struggled with one of you, whereupon or whereafter you ran away.  What is your comment to that?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: What I can say here is that when we arrived, I ended up or should I say I lastly saw one of these policemen falling down.  The other one wanted to grab the firearm from Xolani and that is when the shot went off.

MS THABETE: So are you saying that it is not correct, it is Mr Nkuna who actually struggled with you and not the deceased?  Sorry who struggled with Xolani and not the deceased?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: It was the deceased who was struggling with ... (tape ends) ...

CHAIRPERSON: Are your instructions that Mr Nkuna knew who Xolani was?

MS THABETE: No Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: How can you put it to Mr Mononi that Mr Nkuna will say that Xolani struggled with him?

MS THABETE: No Madam Chair, I said is it his evidence that Xolani struggled with the deceased and not with Mr Nkuna?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETE: Yes, I wasn't putting it to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I thought you had.

MS THABETE: No, I was just asking him.

CHAIRPERSON: My apologies.

MS THABETE: Okay.  Maybe I can clarify Madam Chair, my instructions are that it is not the deceased who struggled with any of the attackers, but it was actually Mr Nkuna himself.
	With regards to the service pistol that was taken from Mr Mathonsi, did you actually see Pat taking the service pistol from Mr Mathonsi, the deceased?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: Yes.

MS THABETE: Where did he take it from?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: It was on a holster, on the side of his waist.

MS THABETE: Sorry I missed that.

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: It was on a holster, or in a holster on the side of his waist, around his waist.

MS THABETE: It is also my instructions Mr Mononi, that none of you took the service pistol from the holster, the deceased's holster, but it is the policemen who came after the incident, who removed  the deceased's service pistol.  What is your comment to that?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: No, the firearm was taken.

MS THABETE: After you had shot the deceased, what happened thereafter, can you briefly explain?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: The deceased was killed by Xolani, was shot by Xolani, not myself.

MS THABETE: Sorry, I mean after the deceased had been shot, what happened thereafter?  Did you leave the scene, what happened, were you there when the policemen came?  Can you just briefly tell us what happened thereafter?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: When the police arrived, we had already left, because after the police was shot, and another one had fled, we too left.  We fled.

MS THABETE: Since my instructions are that you fled because Mr Nkuna was trying to struggle with you, would you say that is a correct statement?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: No, we fled after this policeman had been shot, he was then laying on the ground.  The other policeman had fled to a different direction.

MS THABETE: Thank you Madam Chair, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabete.  Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Mononi, did you not see any of your colleagues wrestling or struggling with the policeman who didn't die, Mr Nkuna?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: No.  This one policeman lay down at the time.

MR LAX: You see his evidence was at the trial, that he heard a shot, page 24 of the papers, Mr Leopeng, this is in the judgement, it starts at line 10.
	You will see at about line 14, he hears the explosive sound of a firearm, his attention becomes drawn to the deceased, trying to run away and his conclusion was that the sound heard by him, was the sound of a shot, only one shot.
	According to him, someone was standing there, holding a firearm, a shotgun pointed in the direction of the deceased.  He says two other persons were also present, one of those had a firearm.
	This person was trying to shoot at him.  The other person was attempting to remove his firearm from his holster, he resisted, he pushed up the hand of one of his attackers.  That hand held the firearm and a shot went off.
	These two men were standing on each side of him.  It appears the Inspector was holding his firearm in his own holster, so that the shot that went off, came from the firearm of one of the attackers.  He fell to the ground, then got an opportunity to remove his firearm from his holster and when he pulled it out, all three the attackers ran away.
	You say that didn't happen that way?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: Yes, it did not happen that way.

MR LAX: Well then, what did this other policeman do, not the deceased, the other policeman?  Did anyone shoot at him?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: No, only one shot was fired that day.  Nobody else attempted to shoot the other police.

MR LAX: Did no one try to take his firearm away from him?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: There is one person who attempted to do that, but at that time, he was laying down.  That was after this other policeman had been shot and we fled.

MR LAX: So, when you told this man, or when Winki told the man these two men, to give you their firearms, what happened after that?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: We pointed our firearms at them and the deceased was in front of Xolani.  He tried to grab Xolani and on pointing the firearm to the other policeman, this policeman lay down and after that, a gunshot went off.

MR LAX: How did he lay down, that is what we are interested in?  Did he just lay himself down flat on the ground, did he fall down, did somebody hit him on the head, what happened, you were there, you must tell us?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: He threw himself on the ground.

MR LAX: Was that as the shot went off?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: No, that was before the shot went off.

MR LAX: What did you do, you haven't told us what you did?  What exactly did you do?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: I pointed my firearm at them.

MR LAX: At who?  At which one?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: I was standing in the middle of them, covering my other comrades.

MR LAX: Well, if you were covering your other comrades, you couldn't have been pointing your firearm at the two of them?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: It was possible, because I was watching for anybody who could draw his firearm first, in case my comrades did not notice that.

MR LAX: Now, which of these five people that you have mentioned, were your co-accused at the trial?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: It was Daniel, but we were not prosecuted together.  He was acquitted before the trial.

MR LAX: Was his name Daniel Nyao?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: Yes, Daniel Dabula, Dabula is the surname.

MR LAX: And Lawrence Khumalo, which one is he?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: Lawrence Khumalo was a member of the Unit, but he was not present on the crime scene, he was one of the people I was arrested with.

MR LAX: And Vusi Mase?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: He too.

MR LAX: What are these people's names that were with you, what is Winki's name?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: Winki is the name, I do not know the surname, Maponya is his combat name.

MR LAX: And Pat?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: Pat is the name, I don't know the surname.

MR LAX: And Xolani?

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: Radebe is Xolani's surname.

MR LAX: In your trial, you gave a completely different version of what happened on that day - you said you weren't there at all.

VUSI SIDNEY MONONI: The evidence in court, could not have been the same as the evidence before this Commission, because in court I was not supposed to tell the truth.