Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

FERDINAND BARNARD: No Chairperson, the reason why I did this was because I had no respect for them and I hated myself and I could not believe that I received instructions from people like Danie Phaal.  He was the Head of the CCB, who came to me and told me exactly what I must do, but when he saw something that could possibly be a conviction or a charge against him, he drove to the Attorney-General to make a statement.  And these are the same people who are recces who kill hundreds of people and even if it's a greenpeace overall that they find, they'll still run to the Attorney-General to testify against their comrades.
	It was these people who were our recces.  If tomorrow he ends up in a war situation and to protect our loved ones, then I'd say Sir, that person who is the big recce guy would sell us out for a tin of bully-beef.  I have got no respect for them.  The same counts for the politicians.  
	It's not about getting out of jail now or prison, I just want them to recognise me.  I want them to say, "yes I know this person", as Siphiwe Nyanda did.  Where's the threat?  There's no more threat for these people, but they are still not doing it.  The Bible says you have to forgive seventy times seven.  I feel about it in this way, Kevin Woods and Eugene de Kock feel the same way, but they still deny it.  We did everything on our own.  Eugene de Kock took 18 people and attacked Lesotho.  And the morning I woke up and I threw names in a hat and I pulled it out and I thought I'll kill David Webster today.  It doesn't work like that and that is why I feel like this.

MR WESSELS: Mr Chairman, some of the documents that I required I'm told that I'm not going to get, I'm not entitled to it, so the others I will get in due course.  I may or may not wish to cross-examine further once I've received those documents.  At this stage, that concludes my cross-examination.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS

CHAIRPERSON: You're just reserving your right to put further questions after you've seen certain documents.  Yes, thank you, Mr Wessels.  Mr Bizos, do you have any questions that you'd like to put?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, Mr Chairman, but I would like clarity, with respect, documents help the Committee in its task to ascertain the truth.  If my learned friend is aware of documents which he says he was told he was unable to get, I think that they may be serving the interests of truth if he discloses to us who have a real and substantial interest in the truth coming out, what documents they are, who has them and why do they claim that Mr Wessels or the Committee are not entitled to them.  It is not a matter that we can leave in the air, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wessels?

MR WESSELS: Yes Mr Chairman, I'm quite prepared to disclose that.  I asked Mr van Eck acting for Calla Botha, for a copy of Calla Botha's statement and he informed ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the third statement that you mentioned?

MR WESSELS: That is the statement made to the Attorney-General, apparently last year or before that. I'm told that apparently I'm not entitled to get that, the Attorney-General gave some instruction that I should not be forwarded an opportunity to peruse the statement.

MR VAN ECK: Mr Chairman, if I can come in at this point here.  Mr Wessels approached me, I've indicated that Mr Botha made a statement to the Director of Public Prosecutions some time ago regarding the shooting of Dr Webster.  I've taken this matter up again this morning with my instructing attorney, Mr Coetzee who is sitting here next to me, with Dr Pretorius of Pretoria, he has taken it up with his boss, Mr Sonn and we've been instructed that there's an investigation still pending, going on in that regard, and that they are not prepared to give permission that any of those documents at this stage may be released or disclosed to Mr Wessels, because according to them he's got no interest in that and there's still an investigation going on in that regard.
	So I've informed Mr Wessels this morning that I've received instructions from Dr Pretorius after ...(no microphone) in this regard and on that basis we can not disclose those documents at this stage at all.

GEORGE BIZOS: We will accept that, Mr Chairman.  I believe that the Attorney-General has, the privilege rests with him, not with the witness, if I remember the cases correctly, in not disclosing the statement.  If that is all, then I will not take the matter any further, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Bizos, you can proceed with your questioning of Mr Barnard.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Could you please have a look at bundle A, page 204, that's your application for amnesty, Mr Barnard.  Now are you on page 204, Mr Barnard?

FERDINAND BARNARD: I am Sir.

GEORGE BIZOS: You can answer the questions in Afrikaans.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I do understand that, thank you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now I see that your address given on that page is C/o David H Botha du Plessis, are those the same attorneys that are acting for Mr Wouter Basson, Mr Leon Maree and Staal Burger in these proceedings?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now try and remember as best you can, who drew your application for amnesty.

FERDINAND BARNARD: I think it was Mr Pietie du Plessis, the person sitting next to me, from the firm that you just mentioned.

GEORGE BIZOS: The person acting for the other three persons that I have mentioned?

FERDINAND BARNARD: That is correct, yes, Mr du Plessis is also my instructing attorney for the Advocate Mr Fanie Coetzee, who is representing me in these hearings.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see yes.  How did you come to Mr du Plessis, was it on your own initiative or did one or other of your fellow policemen from, originally from Brixton, arrange that for you?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, during my detention under Section 29, they appointed a legal team, I had no control over this.  After my release from the Section 29 detention and the Harms Commission that followed on that, the situation continued, people were appointed to me.  It was not Mr du Plessis them.  Then at a certain stage, I cannot exactly recall, that was approximately before the Webster post-mortem inquest took place, I had a discussion with Mr Calla Botha, who then told me that I must get away from those people because the organisation's controlling them.  He then introduced Mr Pietie du Plessis to me and I then decided to work with him from them on.

GEORGE BIZOS: Which organisation was controlling which lawyers?

FERDINAND BARNARD: The CCB appointed the former legal teams under Mr Hennie Goosen, Pierre Botha and Jenna Scholtz who were the instructing attorneys for the Harms Commission.  They were people who were appointed and who were under control.  That's how I understood it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ever pay those original attorneys or Mr du Plessis personally, did you pay any one of them before you made your application for amnesty?

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, Sir, I have never paid any legal costs, apart from my criminal case where I made use of the Law Council.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, that was for the Webster killing.

FERDINAND BARNARD: No, Sir.

GEORGE BIZOS: For what criminal case?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Please repeat, I lost the thread of the story.

GEORGE BIZOS: You said that you paid, or you had counsel on a different basis for your criminal case, which criminal case are you referring to?

FERDINAND BARNARD: Mr Chairperson, I'm referring to the 34 charges from the High Court, for which I'm now serving a sentence.  Amongst others, the Webster incident, all the political incidents and the non-political incidents that took place.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now when you decided to apply for amnesty, I see that your application was filed on the 30th of September '97, was that a decision which you took on your own, or did you take it in consultation with the other people that applied for amnesty?