Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-24

JUDGE MGOEPE: You talk about generating income to the Africans through this vehicle, that's the part I do not understand, how can a car generate income?  It is an expense.

HENDRIK LEEUW: A car helps in an organisation.

JUDGE MGOEPE: How can it generate income, or did you make a mistake by saying so?  It needs repairs and petrol must be put into it, the tyres must be replaced, it's just an expense, how can it generate income?

HENDRIK LEEUW: The car helps in the Organisation because we can help the soldiers with it.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, but the soldiers haven't got money because you are stealing money to give to the soldiers, isn't that so?

HENDRIK LEEUW: By taking these things doesn't mean we were stealing.  We are doing this under the order of the Organisation.  We repossess what the Whites didn't bring in this country in order to assist those disadvantaged in the Organisation, people who need clothing and everything that can help them survive.

ADV DE JAGER: I can understand the Boere or the farmers didn't bring their - or the Whites didn't bring the car into the country but neither did the Blacks, because there were no cars in this country. But to follow up on the question my learned brother asked you, you said you wanted this car to generate income, now that - the people must then pay for the car or pay taxi fees, isn't that so, if you want to get income from the car?

HENDRIK LEEUW: The commander would know about that because he's the one who told us about the car.

ADV DE JAGER: What did he tell you about the car?

HENDRIK LEEUW: We hadn't met him yet.

MR MTHEMBU: Ja, but before you went, what did he say about the car?  Because it was interpreted, that he said you should leave the car behind....

JUDGE WILSON: No, "not" leave the car behind.

ADV DE JAGER: Not leave the car behind, oh, I missed the word "not".  Right, did you steal any, or did you take any
other cars without killing people?

HENDRIK LEEUW: By taking this car we were actually getting what the Africans need.

ADV DE JAGER: But you could get cars, they are parked round in the streets here, why didn't you get a car here, or in Verkeerdevlei on the street corner?

HENDRIK LEEUW: We took the car where we did the job so that it should transport us.

ADV DE JAGER: So that was for your personal use the car, to transport you, to get away?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes we took it until we can get to the Commander, according to the instruction given by him because Organisation was independent, we didn't have any financial support.

JUDGE WILSON: How did you get to the farm?

HENDRIK LEEUW: We used public transport that goes to Brandfort and we used some footpaths to go to the farm.

ADV DE JAGER: You knew the vicinity very well?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: You left there in 1975?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: So for 15 years you weren't on the farm?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: How old was Mr Fourie?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I do not know how old he was?

ADV DE JAGER: Wasn't he an old man?

HENDRIK LEEUW: No he was not an old man, he was just an adult.

ADV DE JAGER: Because in the verdict here the Court says, the Judge, that they were two elderly people, aged people.

HENDRIK LEEUW: I don't believe that, it was not two elderly people.

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Leeuw you have applied for amnesty and you have to play open cards with this Committee and just speak the truth.  That vehicle, you knew it was stolen and you knew it could not be used on any public road because the police would easily have traced it, isn't that correct?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes it is so.

MR MTHEMBU: Now explain to this Committee how that vehicle could have been used in operations and how it could have assisted the Organisation?

HENDRIK LEEUW: This car would be of great help in the Organisation.  We could possibly sell its parts so as to assist the APLA soldiers.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But you are speculating now, are you not?

HENDRIK LEEUW: No Sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Well I thought you said that it was for the Commander to decide what would happen with the car?

HENDRIK LEEUW: According to the question I would explain that it might generate some income.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir is there any particular reason why Stormberg Farm was singled out amongst all the other farms in the Verkeerdevlei area?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I chose that route.  There were other farms that were targeted as well.  I chose Stormberg Farm as the first one because all the things that I knew were on that farm were needed in the Organisation and the owner was the commander in the army.  He played a role in apartheid.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Tell me this, the lady who was with Mr Fourie, was she a so-called White person?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I am not sure to which race did she belong.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What do you think to what race she could have been?

HENDRIK LEEUW: She was English speaking, she couldn't speak Afrikaans.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But many English-speaking people are White, that's why I asked you whether she was White.  I didn't ask you whether she was Afrikaans or whatever, I just asked you whether she was White.

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes, she was a White person.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Thank you.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir you mentioned that the late Mr Fourie was the commander of an army but he was clearly a farmer, what do you mean by that?

JUDGE MGOEPE: Question?

MR MTHEMBU: You referred in your testimony to this Committee that Mr Fourie (Speaker's microphone is not on) ...because he was a commander in the army, if I heard you correctly, but you lived on his farm, you knew he was not in the army, what do you mean by that?

HENDRIK LEEUW: During the weekends the farmers used to go to the police station and they used to assist the policemen and he was in command in this particular army of theirs.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir the next of kin of the late Mr Fourie, as well as that of Mrs May are not here today, but what would you like to say to them?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I would like to say I am very remorseful about the death of the deceased and therefore I am asking for forgiveness.

JUDGE WILSON: Did your father work for Mr Fourie?

HENDRIK LEEUW: My grandfather did.

JUDGE WILSON: And how long did he stay there for?

HENDRIK LEEUW: My grandfather passed away in 1994.  He died on that farm.

JUDGE WILSON: So he was on the farm when you came and murdered Mr Fourie there?

HENDRIK LEEUW: He was dead when I killed Mr Fourie.

JUDGE WILSON: I thought you said 1994.  You said he died in 1994.

HENDRIK LEEUW: '74, 1974, I said 1974.

MR MTHEMBU: Sir do you have anything that you wish to add?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I'd like to add on by saying that it is due to John Showa instructions and I also ask for forgiveness from the deceased's family.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know any of the children of Mr Fourie or didn't he have children?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes I would be able to recognise them if I see them.  He had two children.

ADV DE JAGER: Were they grown-ups when you left or were they still young?

HENDRIK LEEUW: They were married already.

ADV DE JAGER: Did they have children already at that stage?

HENDRIK LEEUW: I think it's like that as far as I can remember.

ADV DE JAGER: And do you know where they lived?

HENDRIK LEEUW: No Sir, I didn't know where they stayed.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you have any grudge against Mr Fourie?

HENDRIK LEEUW: No Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Did he treat you well?

HENDRIK LEEUW: No he did not treat me well.  He even took my father's cattle and my aunt as well, he hated Black people.

ADV DE JAGER: And so you - but that did nothing to you, you didn't have a grudge against him because he hated Black people?

HENDRIK LEEUW: Yes he did something to me because even my own
cows are still with him and my aunt's and even his promises he never fulfilled them.

ADV DE JAGER: Are your cattle still, at the time when you murdered him, your cattle were still on the farm?