Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-03-30

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: If I could guess again Mr Chairperson, approximately half an hour.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it within the first half an hour of interrogation that he knocked his head against the wall?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I would say half an hour to 45 minutes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And during that time, he refused to give any meaningful answer to any of the questions?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: You see, you have now extended the period to three quarters of an hour, what do you say to Mr Marx's version that it was only ten minutes, and that the only meaningful thing that must have happened there, was the quarrel about the chair?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, as I have said the interrogation was half an hour and I would guess about 15 minutes for the struggling.  That is what I would guess.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were the questions that were put to him and the reluctant answers that he gave, was at that stage, was he sitting on the chair or had Mr Siebert's will prevailed, and was he standing?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: As I have said previously, initially he sat down and then Mr Siebert spoke to him and the questioning resumed and he went and sat again, and then Captain Siebert grabbed him and he pushed the chair forward in the direction of Mr Siebert, and he was hit.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let me just understand this, your version is that he sat, he was persuaded to stand, and he stood and then he sat down and then he was manhandled by Mr Siebert to stop sitting on the chair, is that what you are telling us?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: And if the versions of your colleagues are different, who do you ask the Committee to believe, you or your colleagues?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is what I saw and that is my version.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, let me ...

CHAIRPERSON: No Mr Niewoudt, only one thing happened, not two things.  The question is who do we believe, you or your colleagues?  It doesn't help to say this is what I saw.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, that is so, but Mr Bizos' statement makes a general statement, is he talking about Snyman or Siebert - I don't know now.  He is confronting me with ...

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, let's take Marx as an example.  Marx says that this whole thing was over within ten minutes and on his version, the whole quarrel really was about whether the man had the right to sit on a chair or not.  Are you saying that Mr Marx's version is incorrect?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I would guess the time 15 minutes that the struggling happened.  That is his guess, his guess is ten.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, he says that the whole ...

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, he is not guessing, his guess was not ten, his guess of the struggling and the interrogation, the whole episode is ten, if I understand it correctly.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Your guess of the whole episode, the interrogation of approximately 30 minutes and the struggling taking 15 minutes, you bring it to 45 minutes, and he brings it to ten minutes.  Now the question put to you is, who should we believe, Marx's version or your total of 45?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It is difficult for me.  As I can recall it was approximately 45 minutes, that the whole incident took place.

ADV DE JAGER: It is your recollection that it was 45 minutes.  Let's assume that this is a guess, it could be 40 or even a little less?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is so.

ADV DE JAGER: But could it be as little as ten?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.

ADV DE JAGER: So your version would be that Marx is wrong in his guess?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I believe Marx is, may be wrong in his guess.  That is possible.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was anybody making notes whilst this interrogation was taking place?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I can remember that Major Snyman sat there with a clipboard.  If he took notes or not, I don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: What happened to those notes, or whatever was on the board that Mr Snyman had paper on?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't it be in his file?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: This is possible.  His main file was in King William's Town.

ADV BOOYENS: Mr Chairperson, I wish to point out the witness said he doesn't know if Snyman took notes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, if Mr Marx said that he was making notes, are you able to deny that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: As I say again, I don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: I am going to put to you that Mr Marx says that the maximum period was 12 minutes, ten minutes of talking and two minutes when he - yes, there was interrogation for two minutes, he went out for ten minutes and when he came, there was this scrum around Mr Biko, so the maximum period that he was there, was 12 minutes.  Pages 130 and 131 of the record Mr Chairman.  Would that be wrong?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, you said initial ten minutes questioning?

GEORGE BIZOS: No, two minutes questioning.

CHAIRPERSON: And ten minutes ...

GEORGE BIZOS: And he left and came back ten minutes later, and then he saw the scrum.  That is on page 130 to 131.
	You see, I am going to put to you that experienced interrogators with or without torture, like Mr Siebert, Snyman would not enter upon an interrogation of particularly Mr Biko, without preparing themselves.
	Just like Attorneys and counsel do, or should do.  What do you say to that.

ADV DE JAGER: They can make one like you've made one now Mr Bizos, about the time.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, well, I corrected myself once I looked at the document, that is why I added should do, in order to cover myself.
	And we have it from Mr Siebert, that there was a briefing by Colonel Goosen.  Is the Committee not entitled to infer that they were well prepared as to what they were going to put to him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I don't know if they prepared themselves, but it was clear to me from the questions that Siebert asked, and thereby Mr Biko drew the inference from the questions which were put to him, that these persons were according to me, not prepared properly, or they had no background on Mr Biko.  This is my opinion.

GEORGE BIZOS: You see, Mr Biko was a person who wrote about his position, what his ideas were in books, which were published, and I am sure that a complete collection of whatever he had written, was in the library of the Security Police, otherwise they would not have been doing their job properly.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Had you read anything that he had written?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I have read, I have seen some of his articles Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: And more particularly, what his attitude to interrogation under detention was.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I can't remember if I've ever read that.

GEORGE BIZOS: He had been detained for 101 days a short while before this particular detention, and he was allowed to go because 101 days couldn't produce any evidence against him, do you recall that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is possible, I don't know.  I did not detain him.

GEORGE BIZOS: We are not interested ...

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, his arrest near Grahamstown was put into operation, or succeeded with because of a roadblock as I understand, not so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that roadblock set up specifically to effect that arrest?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I don't know.  Unfortunately I can't help you there, I doubt it.  I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems strange to me that as soon as he was arrested, the roadblock was stopped as it seems, I don't know, maybe I am wrong.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I don't know what the circumstances in Grahamstown was at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, in any event, it seems to me that the Security Police in Port Elizabeth, wanted Mr Biko in custody or in detention at the time, not so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.