Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-25

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr  Chairman, it is possible, obviously the evidence creates certain questions, 
that is why I asked Captain Mentz when the victim's wife testified, exactly - if he can remember exactly 
where he was shot.  He told me and that is why I have decided to volunteer that evidence.  It is possible that 
that evidence might contradict this, it is possible that it might not contradict this unless we have some sort 
of expert evidence to explain to us that some of the injuries could not at all have been caused by any 
assault.	Or that the injuries could have been caused by gunshot wounds.  
	The only point I am trying to make Mr Chairman is that it doesn't appear from the post-mortem in 
the light of Captain Mentz's evidence, it doesn't appear from the post-
mortem exactly that there were gunshot wounds anywhere else,
than possibly in the face.

JUDGE WILSON: Well that depends on the reading, if it says brain injuries and hyper-volemic 
shocks, multiple injuries from gunshot wounds, then that falls away completely, so we must get a proper 
copy of the post-mortem report and the annexure.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Obviously Mr Chairman.  All I am trying to point out is that it is not clear and 
that one cannot come to a specific conclusion regarding this and, the point I am trying to make is that it is 
possible that the clothes that the witness testified about, could have been the clothes that he had on during 
the incident.
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 142

CAPT MENTZ: I also want to point out to you that the photographs, whatever that might be worth in evidence, 
photographs on the video that was shown this morning, as far as I can recall, indicated that the clothes had 
some damage to it.  As far as that may be important and as far as the Committee may take any note of that.
	I have not further questions for the witness Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe, you will endeavour to get hold of this Annexure A?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I will endeavour to do that.

HASSAN MALL: It may be possible that we might have to recall this witness, depending upon the contents 
of that document.

UNKNOWN: Yes, Mr Chairman, just to inform the Committee, there is a three page post-mortem 
report which was given to me by the Investigative Unit, so they did not give me all the annexures, but I will 
get in touch with them to check as to where Annexure A is, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Did they give you a typed copy of the port-mortem report or was it 
handwritten?

UNKNOWN: It is typed, also mine is typed.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you. You are excused for the time being.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I just want to place on record, there are other witnesses that I can 
call in respect of this incident, they are not here at the moment and I would simply want, in the light of the 
fact that we still 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 143	W/

UNKNOWN: have to get further information, want to reserve my rights in that regard to be allowed later on, to call other 
witnesses in respect of this incident.

HASSAN MALL: Yes, we are really concerned with the nature of his injuries.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, I can understand that.

HASSAN MALL: May we then proceed with the next matter?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman, yes.  I call Warrant Officer Paul van Vuuren.

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Van Vuuren can you remember exactly when this 
incident took place?
W/

UNKNOWN: Approximately 1986 or 1987.

ADV DU PLESSIS: You set out the nature of the offence.
W/

UNKNOWN: Myself, Captain Hechter, Sergeant Van der Westhuizen and Slang, his name 
was Danny (indistinct) questioned him.  We used a gas mask, assaulted him and executed electrical shocks 
on him to gain information.
	He was a great ANC activist, he had thrown several petrol bombs in Mamelodi and he was 
involved in arson and
the petrol attacks on policemen's houses.
	The South African Defence Force could not trace him and at the request of Captain Van Jaarsveld 
to trace him, at that stage Captain Jaap van Jaarsveld was our temporary Commanding Officer because if I 
remember correctly, Flip Loots was on a special investigation.	Myself and Sergeant van der Westhuizen 
went to look for him on the instruction of Captain Hechter.  We traced him within three days.  The way in 
which we traced him was out of informant reports, we started monitoring his movements very closely and 
within three days we traced him.  That just showed how effective 
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DU PLESSIS: 144	W/

UNKNOWN: the Security Police was at that stage.  The questioning took approximately two hours and in that time, his 
oxygen supply was limited.  He was assaulted by Slang and Hendrik with handcuffs and electrical shocks 
were also executed on him and it was necessary to gain information from him about his activities and 
strategies and thereafter he became a source of the police and gave us very important information.

ADV DU PLESSIS: ;	Could I ask you about the methods which were used in his interrogation, were 
these the normal methods which were used?
W/

UNKNOWN: Yes, these were the normal methods which we used.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you obtain any relevant information from him?
W/

UNKNOWN: Yes, we did.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you remember which injuries he sustained?
W/

UNKNOWN: At this stage it is difficult for me to remember, I can't remember exactly, but we 
assaulted him quite seriously.
NO FURTHER

<UNKNOWN>: S BY

ADV DU PLESSIS: .

HASSAN MALL: Mr Currin?

MR CURRIN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR CURRIN: WO van Vuuren, you've said that he threw petrol bombs and 
was involved in many activities, did you see him throwing petrol bombs, on what basis are you making 
those allegations?
W/

UNKNOWN: I never saw him personally, but out of the informant reports which we received 
it was quite clear that he was involved and he was a leader in  Mamelodi who was involved in petrol bomb 
attacks.
PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

MR CURRIN: 145	W/

MR CURRIN: Was he ever charged with any offence ever sentenced?
W/

UNKNOWN: I cannot remember, I cannot say.

MR CURRIN: So it is all hearsay?  It is hearsay, what you've repeated here with regard to his activities, 
is hearsay, you don't know it as a matter of fact?
W/

UNKNOWN: No, I know it for a fact out of the various informant reports, we did not only 
have one informant who was supplying us with information, there were several informants who were 
bringing us information on Scheepers Morudi and his name came up quite often, so it was not just hearsay 
evidence, it was fact because the informants did not know about each other and did not work together.

MR CURRIN: I will not argue with you as to what constitutes hearsay, I will leave it there.  Could you 
give a little bit more information with regard to the torture?
W/

UNKNOWN: It is a long time ago, but if I remember correctly we used a gas mask, we put it over 
his head and we left the plug in and we denied him oxygen.  His hands and feet were tied and we assaulted 
him several times.  We assaulted him with our bare hands and some of the Constables involved, we kicked 
him too.  Some of the Constables involved assaulted him with the handcuffs.

MR CURRIN: Would you say that he was severely assaulted?
W/

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

MR CURRIN: He has asked me to put to you that he was never a member of the ANC, he was a student 
activist, he was not an ANC activist.  Do you have proof that he was a member of the ANC?
W/

UNKNOWN: No, I have no proof that he was a member of PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

MR CURRIN: 145	W/

UNKNOWN: the ANC because all those documents have been destroyed as 
it has been said time and again in the evidence.

MR CURRIN: You assumed, I would imagine that if one was an activist, whether it was a student 
activist that one was an ANC activist?
W/

UNKNOWN: That is possible.