Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

ADV BEMBRIDGE: There should be numbering on the top, right hand side of the page.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge, is it not on page 4 of the plea examination, if some documentshave not been paginated?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: It is typed page 4, and markedpage 5 on the top right hand corner. It is page 4 of the plea explanation, butpage 5 of the total bundle which we've handed up.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Where on that page is this, Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Itis at the paragraph marked 20.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Line 20?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: It begins slightly earlier than line 20, but...

SISI KHAMPEPE: Line 16.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, at the middle of the page?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, just give him another chance, read that to him.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Mr Makoma stated in his plea to the court that in and during 1993, P

<UNKNOWN>: memberswere attacked by members of rival political organisations. This led to the formationof a Task Group under the leadership of Siphiwe Makweso. This group was specificallyformed to protect P

<UNKNOWN>: leaders and members. Do you confirm that that is correct?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: So then is it correctto say also that the Task Group of which you were a member, was designed toprotect the P

<UNKNOWN>: from its opponents?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: The Task Force was toprotect the P

<UNKNOWN>: members.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: It was not designed to go outand attack other people, it was designed as a defensive unit, is that correct?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, it was not to attack, but I can say that in defending orprotecting members in the Task Force, there were different structures.

<UNKNOWN>: lthoughsome of the people were not aware of those structures, my information is thatthe Task Force was there to protect or defend members of the P

<UNKNOWN>: .

<UNKNOWN>: nd it was there to protect the members against as it states, attacks by membersof rival political organisations? Is that correct?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I saidthat what I knew about the Task Force is that it protected P

<UNKNOWN>: members.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Did you consider the congregation at the St James church as arival political organisation which posed some threat to your members and leaders?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Please explain your question how?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I wantto know did you see the congregation of the St James church as a rival politicalorganisation which threatened your members or leaders and which it was thereforenecessary for you to defend them against?

INTERPRETER: If I may interjectMr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, there isn't proper interpretation of the word "threat",I think the misunderstanding between the person who is asking the question andthe applicant is as a result of a failure to interpret appropriately the word"threat".

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Perhaps I can rephrase my question

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee. Did you see the congregation of the St James church as a rival politicalorganisation which may attack your members and leaders?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Will you please repeat the question, it is not clear to me?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Did you see or did you consider the members of the congregation at the St Jameschurch as people who would, who were a rival political organisation to the P

<UNKNOWN>: and who may attack the members or leaders of the P

<UNKNOWN>: ?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Myanswer to that - people from

<UNKNOWN>: zania, when the land was taken from them by theWhites, they were using churches in all means. They were using the churches.

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE How were they using the churches to attack the P

<UNKNOWN>: ?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I did not say they were using churches to attack P

<UNKNOWN>: , I talked about when theytook the land from the people. The land which we wanted - so they were usingchurches in all means.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Do you or do you not say that thechurch was being used to attack the P

<UNKNOWN>: ?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: The question isnot clear when you ask about the church.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, did you hearhim say that, I did not hear him say that. I never heard him say that the churchwas used to attack the P

<UNKNOWN>: .

ADV BEMBRIDGE: My question is whether he saysit or whether he does not say it.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, he hasn't. On what basisdo you ask that question if he hasn't said that. Is it a wrong interpretationor what?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I am asking him whether it is his opinion thatthe church was used to attack the P

<UNKNOWN>: , he doesn't seem to understand my question,I am trying to put it in a slightly more basic form, to say to him, is it hisopinion that the church attacked the P

<UNKNOWN>: or is it not his opinion.

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Will you please repeat that question for me?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Is it or isit not your opinion that the church was used to attack the P

<UNKNOWN>: ?

<UNKNOWN>: gain I am saying that I did not say that churches were used to attack P

<UNKNOWN>: .

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE Then on what basis do you justify the Task Force from attackingthe church?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I don't remember mentioning a Task Force attackinga church.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I interpose Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge? I think what Mr Mkhumbuzihas said is that he was a member of the Task Force which was formed to protectand defend members of the P

<UNKNOWN>: . The evidence that has been admitted through theaffidavit indicates that the church was attacked by him whilst he was a memberof

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: , shouldn't you by tying the two before you can put that question tohim? Was a Task Force a unit of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: ?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Well, I attemptedto clarify that with him earlier when I asked him the manner in which he joined

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: , he explained he joined

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: by joining the Task Force as I understoodhim.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: That is how it started, but the actual attack may havetaken place at a time when he was not merely a member of the Task Force, butas a member of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: and according to his evidence as I understand it, it was

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: that attacked the church.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Then I think I am obligedto ask him again how he became a member of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: .

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I don'tthink that is really necessary, you are taking up a lot of time, because thefact of the matter is that P

<UNKNOWN>: - who is a member of P

<UNKNOWN>: knows that

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: is amilitary wing of the P

<UNKNOWN>: , he was recruited into

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: , I don't think we shouldtake too much time over that.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Well he says he was recruitedinto

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: , it appears at this stage only that he was recruited into the TaskForce.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Quite right.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: He did not haveany of the functions which would justify the attack on the church.

<UNKNOWN>: t the time when the attack took place, he may have been not only in the TaskForce, but as a member of

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: , clear that up. Perhaps I should clear it up.You joined

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: as a member of the Task Force.

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I joined

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: while I was a member of the Task Force.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: While you werea member of the Task Force, is that how it is? Yes?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: I amsorry, come again?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: While you were a member of the Task Force,you joined

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: ?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes, I joined

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: .

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: So then the attack was not carried out by the Task Force, it was carried outby

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: ?