Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-04

MR LOWIES: On the face of it I should agree with you but that would be defeating the purpose of cross-examination, with respect, because one of the aspects of cross-examination which you would know is vitally important, is whether or not this witness is telling the truth and therefore I'm simply putting to him that it's denied, I will be effecting an important objective, being testing his credibility as to this aspect.

CHAIRPERSON: That may well be the case, no one challenges that proposition.  The fact of the matter is, when the witness has repeatedly told us he doesn't know, he can't estimate, what else can he say?  He doesn't know, he can't estimate, he didn't count them.

MR LOWIES: I missed the part that he didn't say that he can't estimate, that he said that he can't estimate but I will move on, with respect Chair.

MR LAX: Mr Lowies, he said that right at the very beginning of his testimony under cross-examination.  He said "I'm not sure, I can't estimate" but you carried on asking these questions.  It's right at the very beginning of my notes of his reply to your answers.

MR LOWIES: Be that as it may, Chair, I will proceed.  I take it then that I've missed that, the estimation then.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I understand that.  Mr Nosenga, when you tell us that there were people from Natal as well, do you have any basis for that or do you just assume there must be people from Natal?

MR LOWIES: Yes that is true, there were people who had come from Natal and Mashlabatini, I'm just not in a position to give you a number.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, how many tents would you say were there on the day of the rally when the Chief spoke, on the day of the meeting, sorry, when the Chief spoke?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There were many tents, I cannot say exactly how many.  There were many of them.

MR LOWIES: You were a resident of KwaMadala Hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: That being the case, my question is the following.  At the meeting, tents included, would you say there were more people there that day than reside in the KwaMadala Hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot explain.

MR LOWIES: Why?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did say I don't know, you asked me as to how many people were there, I said I don't know and you asked me about tents and I told you there were many, I don't know how many.

MR LOWIES: To summarise then, you can't even tell us how many people were at the meeting in total even with reference to the KwaMadala Hostel and I'm talking about the number of people residing there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said there were many of them.  Some of them had come from Johannesburg, Thokoza etc.  I just cannot say, I'm not in the position.

ADV SIGODI: Mr Nosenga, were the buses bringing people at this rally?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I found many buses at arrival or on arrival.  I had left in a Kombi.

ADV SIGODI: Yes but what I mean is were the buses at the rally, bringing people in at Ulundi?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I saw many buses on arrival, I did not see them arriving.  I did not see them arriving at the conference, I just found them there.

MR LOWIES: Put simply, it was an open meeting, anybody could attend, not so?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did say it was an IFP rally or conference.  Yes some people remained behind at KwaMadala Hostel, people who were interested attended and some remained behind.

MR LOWIES: I should maybe describe to you what I mean by open meeting.  Open meeting does not mean that people stayed behind, open meeting means anybody who wanted to attend could have done so.  Do you understand my question?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I understand but I cannot commit myself to something like that.  All I'm saying is that some people remained behind.

MR LOWIES: Why can't you commit yourself as to whether or not this was an open meeting as defined?  What is your problem in that regard?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am simply saying I cannot answer your question, some people I'm saying remained behind.

MR LOWIES: Was there anybody at the tents preventing members of the IFP who were there to enter these tents when the Chief Minister spoke?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I didn't witness that, I didn't know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: Well let's talk about you yourself, you could come and go as you please, not so?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I was free to move as I pleased because I was an IFP member.

MR LOWIES: And there was no way of them checking whether or not you were an IFP member, not so?  In other words it was not required of you to show a card or anything to say, listen I'm an IFP member, I'm entering this tent, correct?  Or any other manner of proving that you're a member, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I've already mentioned before, IFP members were known and it was not just anybody who could come through.  I did see security guards at the gate.  I was free because I was an IFP member.

MR LOWIES: Did you have to show your pass at the gates?

CHAIRPERSON: What counsel is - just listen to the question, Mr Nosenga, what counsel is trying to find out from you was as people were coming to the rally, was there anyone who was at any particular point checking whether people coming in were members of the IFP or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes there were security guards.

CHAIRPERSON: Now were these people asking everyone who was coming in whether he or she was a member of the IFP?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes they were asked.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, you were also asked if you were a member of the IFP?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was the Prince Mtwana Zulu who spoke on our behalf, I didn't.

MR LOWIES: And who were in your group with Prince Mtwana Zulu?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was Gatchene, Darkie Chonco and other Indunas that I did not know from Natal.

MR LOWIES: And all that happened is that the Prince said "we are from the IFP and you were allowed to pass?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, he produced an IFP membership card.

MR LOWIES: Only him?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that's the only person I witnessed producing a card.

MR LOWIES: Now besides your group, did anybody else at the gate when they wanted to go through have to produce a card or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot say because I did not witness, I did not see with regards to any other people because after we had gone through the gates that was it.

MR LOWIES: The reason why I'm asking is and I'd just like to get clarity there, I initially got the impression and you must now tell me whether this impression is wrong, the impression I got is that it is within your knowledge that you had to prove at the gates that you were an IFP member before you would be allowed because there was security?  It now appears that they just basically asked you whether you were a member and you didn't see whether anybody else and also you, I mean your group, and you didn't see whether they asked anybody else whether they were members of the IFP.  Am I wrong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No as the judge asked me, I explained that there were people who were security officers and the only person who produced a card was Prince Zulu.

MR LOWIES: And of the other members of the public you did not see anybody producing a card?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I said before, I was already inside the venue, I did not see any people, any other people producing cards, if they produced them or not because I was already inside the venue.

MR LOWIES: Now are you an IFP member at present?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct because I am here because of the IFP.

MR LOWIES: You're still a member?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I have already answered your question that I am.

MR LOWIES: Now you as an IFP member, you are not a leader in the IFP of any sorts, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I'm just a supporter of the IFP.