Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

J A MKHWANAZI: Yes, he will give that kind of evidence because he wants to benefit from it but in reality, when I came to Ermelo there was already violence between the Black Cats as well as the members of the community and the strategy that they used was to spread around all the townships in Ermelo, to such an extent that the Black Cats were able to help structures of the IFP so as to prevent members of the ANC from making the area a stronghold of the ANC.

MS VAN DER WALT: We are busy with the fact when you stayed in Piet Retief.

J A MKHWANAZI: The question is not completed, I didn't hear it.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you repeat the question?

MS VAN DER WALT: When you stayed in Piet Retief, before you came to Ermelo, I put it to you that from '89 to '91 there was no violence in Piet Retief.

J A MKHWANAZI: You were staying in the urban areas so I don't know where you get that information from because you were not directly affected by the violence in the location or the residential areas.  You were not directly affected.  I don't even think you noticed that there was violence in those areas because you were not staying there and it didn't affect you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mkhwanazi, all the advocate is putting to you is what her instructions are, she is not saying that she had personal knowledge of it, do you understand?

J A MKHWANAZI: I understand.

MS VAN DER WALT: Sir, when there was violence to such an extent as you just described it, what did you do in Piet Retief to try and curb the violence?

MR PATEL: I must object to that question Mr Chairman.  This questions, I'm not sure what the answer is to it but it exposes Mr Mkhwanazi to other offences to which he hasn't claimed amnesty.  You will recall that his testimony relates to what he did in Ermelo and not in the Piet Retief area.  The whole general trend of the questions are in my submission irrelevant but I haven't objected for various reasons but on this particular point I think I must stress that it's not a permissable question.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you like to change the question?

MS VAN DER WALT: I will change it but would just like to point out to his representative that he brought an open application regarding to what any of the SDU's did and then he cannot incriminate himself in crimes which he did not make known now.

MR PATEL: If I may just respond.  The SDU's are the SDU's for which, he formulated in the Ermelo area.  He can't take responsibility for SDU's who performed actions in Cape Town and Swaziland.

CHAIRPERSON: I accept that but isn't that question surrounding the Ermelo area?  As I understand the question: What did he do in Ermelo to curb the violence?  	Is that not so Miss van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Chairperson, I would also like to point out that when Mr Black asked him if he acted as commander in order to curb the violence, he specifically asked him: Ermelo, Dawel and Piet Retief and he confirmed that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, isn't that question a relevant question?

MR PATEL: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't the question relevant?

MR PATEL: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: I'm asking you what your views are.

MR PATEL: I cannot hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the questions not relevant?

MR PATEL: The question as I understood it initially was as follows:  "There was violence in the Piet Retief area, my instructions are that there was no violence, you say that you were there in Piet Retief for a short time in '89 and sometime in 1990 you came to Ermelo.  For the period 1989 to 1991, my client Mr Msibi will testify that there was no violence".  On the basis of that the question is: "If you say there was violence, what did you do insofar as it related to that particular situation"?
	The witness has testified that when he came to Ermelo this is what he did insofar as it's related to Ermelo.  
	Insofar as any acts before that he hasn't claimed amnesty, whether it be with regard to specific instructions, whether it be with regard to general instructions but before getting to Ermelo he has not claimed amnesty for anything that he has done and therefore this sort of questioning opens him up to offences for which he hasn't claimed amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: You described what you did in order to clamp down on the violence, the crime.  When you got to these areas under your jurisdiction as it were, did you do anything else besides what you described, relating to the issues for which you apply for amnesty?

J A MKHWANAZI: When I arrived in Ermelo I consulted with Mndebele, I also encouraged him to speak or negotiate with members of the IFP in order to sort the problem out but his attempts were always thwarted, especially when he gave me the report back.  He told me that the Black Cats members told him that they were controlled at Ulundi and they did not want to negotiate with anyone else and therefore he was not in a position to them.

MS VAN DER WALT: Sir, if I could take you back to your own testimony and that is why I asked this question, what you did at Piet Retief.  Before you came back into this country you received instructions from Chris Hani,
according to your testimony, that you had to do something about the violence, you had to recruit some people here, is that correct or do you want to change it?

J A MKHWANAZI: That is true.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now you come and according to you there were problems at Piet Retief, is that right?

J A MKHWANAZI: I did point out that when I arrived in Piet Retief there were some attacks on the MDM structures.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did you do with the instruction that you received from Chris Hani, to do something about the violence in Piet Retief?

MR PATEL: Mr Chairman, my original objection to this question still stands.

CHAIRPERSON: In respect of the problems in Piet Retief, did you do anything other than what you described to us, in an attempt to quell the violence and crime?

J A MKHWANAZI: I didn't stay long in Piet Retief, I moved to Ermelo, so there isn't much that I did in the Piet Retief area in order to try and stop the violence.

CHAIRPERSON: That may be so.  Did you do anything else other than what you've told us you did?  Yes or no?

J A MKHWANAZI: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why not?

J A MKHWANAZI: When I arrived in the country my obligation was to set up structures that were going to be able to operate underground.  I did not stay long in Piet Retief, so I was not able to do anything.  It was only when I was settled and established in Ermelo that I was able to set up these structures.   Had I stayed longer in Piet Retief, I would have been able to set up these structures or do something.

MS VAN DER WALT: If your testimony is correct, why did Mr Mndebele not speak the truth in terms of the instruction from Chris Hani because ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that question please.

MS VAN DER WALT: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MS VAN DER WALT: If this applicant's testimony is true then I want to know from him why would Mr Mndebele tell untruths here.  I would like to the testimony to him later.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that not a question for Mr Mndebele to answer?

MS VAN DER WALT: One of the two's application ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: This witness gives a version, he says it's the truth.  Can it be expected that he should explain someone else's version?

MS VAN DER WALT: Then I would just like to put to him what Mr Mndebele says.
	Mr Mndebele says that in July 1990, yourself with him and a Mr Zwane went to Chris Hani where you met with him and you discussed problems in Ermelo, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Where was this?

MS VAN DER WALT: This in July 1990, testimony was not given as to where it was.

MR PATEL: With respect Mr Chairman, the evidence of Mndebele was that it took place in Johannesburg at Shell House.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]