Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-27

CHAIRPERSON: You've been asked about this incident and you've explained there were so many incidents you can't remember, you can't remember this particular one.  Have you been told the details that are available?  That this particular raid was arranged by Colonels Coetzee and Stephenson and that they took members of the security branch from Bloemfontein to Botshabelo who then came to the Botshabelo police station where they joined by local police in carrying out this raid.  Do you remember such an incident when a squad of security police men from Bloemfontein came to Botshabelo and carried out a raid?

MR VAN DEN BERG: At that stage Botshabello was a sub branch.  They fell under the head office and on occasion there were members who were involved in such operations.  I cannot recall or join, associate this specific operation with this specific incident where people arrived there.  As a result of the size of the area we made use of usually made use of people from the unrest unit or from the people of Bloemfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: So this was quite a common occurrence of Bloemfontein being there?

MR VAN DEN BERG: In Botshabello?  Yes, that's. correct in Botshabelo

CHAIRPERSON: I think he said they were also assisted by
members of the riot unit was that the unrest unit?

MR VAN DEN BERG: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] also happened quite often?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Yes, the unrest unit gave the protection and that is why they were involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: You are excused thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Visser is there a light at the end of the tunnel?

MR VISSER: I detect a slight note of criticism but I must say ...[intervention]

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No, no, I'm just looking at the number of the remaining witnesses, the remaining names.  The number remaining seems to be encouraging.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I can tell you that we have run through I think 14 witnesses right now.  I have now got left Mr Bester, Mr Coetzee,  Mr Erasmus, Mr Ramosoeu, whom I'm calling now.  And then I'm trying to get hold of Mr Thulo who is not stationed in Bloemfontein but in Ladybrand.
	 It seems that with Mr Ramosoeu we're looking at five witnesses to come Mr Chairman so there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Visser, have you possibly discussed matters with your colleagues?  Do they wish you to call all the witnesses?

MR VISSER: : Mr Chair, I thought the status quo remained because Mr Memani explicitly stated that he was not prepared to accept the content of their affidavits as being the truth and therefore I offer them to Mr Memani for cross-examination.  I don't have much of a choice in the matter really Mr Chair, unless Mr Memani then says he does not wish to have the witnesses, then it's the end of the affair and we can finish off now.

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I refer you to Bundle page 35 as well as page 106.
	Mr Ramosoeu, are you Titsi Hendrik Ramosoeu?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: That is correct

MR VISSER: Were you a member of the South African police?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: That is correct I still am one.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry I've got mine on the wrong channel now, I'm terribly sorry.  What was what was two?  Yes thank you.   I'm sorry Mr interpreter the answer to the last question was?

INTERPRETER: Still a member.  What is your rank please?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: I'm an inspector.

MR VISSER: Now, did you join the security branch in Bloemfontein at some stage?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: That is correct, in 1982.

MR VISSER: And were you placed elsewhere to perform your duties?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: In 1982 when I arrived here from Wepener after I've worked - I worked under Lieutenant Shaw.  I was working locally here in Bloemfontein.

MR VISSER: Yes, and did you go - did you remain in Bloemfontein at all times?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: If I remember well, in 1985 - it was the beginning of 1984, I started working at Brandfort.

MR VISSER: How many members of the ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Soryy, can we clarify that?  How did you get to work at Brandfort?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: We had an office in Brandfort because of Mrs Winnie Mandela.  It was during the time when she was staying in Brandfort.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but did you stay in Brandfort?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: I was not staying there, I travelled to Brandfort every morning and came back in the afternoon.

MR VISSER: And how many other members of the security branch were there at Brandfort?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: I was working alone in Brandfort.  I left here under the command of Lieutenant Shaw and the instructions for the day and in the afternoon I'd come back home.

MR VISSER: Now do you know Mr Ngo?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: Yes, I know him.

MR VISSER: Was Mr Ngo ever in Brandfort where he assisted you in your duties?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: Not at all.

MR VISSER: Did he ever come to Brandfort to participate in any operation together with you?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: Not at all not with me.

MR VISSER: Now Mr Ngo has implicated you as a person who was present when Mr Venter was murdered here in Bloemfontein in February 1989.

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: I want to shortly explain.  I know at some stage that Ngo's mother was working for Mr Venter and she was staying there or he was staying there at Mr Venter's house during his schooling.  that there was an incident to take part in Mr Venter's death, I would not give evidence to that effect because I cannot even describe how Mr Venter was.

MR VISSER: Do you know where Mr Venter lived?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: I have a little light.  I think it was somewhere around Universitas suburb.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo says that you and Mamome transported HIM by vehicle to the house of Mr Venter on the day that he was instructed to go and murder Mr Venter, is that true?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: That is not true because Ngo knew Mr Venter's house, he was staying there.

MR VISSER: Sorry Mr Chairman, I'm just looking if there's anything else I should bring out particularly.  In short if it is suggested to do with anything illegal concerning Mr Venter, what is your reaction to that?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: I would dispute that Sir because I do not know Mr Venter.  I only heard that Mr Ngo killed a white person in town and it it is the same person with whom he stayed.

MR VISSER: Mr Ramosoeu, at page 27, I'm sorry page 29 of bundle A, Mr Ngo says that you were one of the persons who were organised by Colonel Coetzee and Colonel Stephenson to beat up and torture those 19 comrades, and the comrades I'm referring to are those who were arrested in the Ladybrand area and brought to Bloemfontein in April of 1986.  Is it true that you were one of those people who were so organised?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: The first point, I have never worked with Mr Stephenson locally.  I knew him, he was stationed at Bethlehem I've never taken part in the interrogation of anybody who was arrested outside.

MR VISSER: Did you have anything at all to do with this group of nineteen arrested persons?

TITSI HENDRIK RAMOSOEU: If I remember well, if ever it happened that I had any contact with them, the kind of work I used to do was filling in the forms we wanted to know about the person he historical background when he was born such things.

MR VISSER: Yes, but can you remember this particular incident of the group of 19 people where there were people like Oupa Makubalo and Mr Oliphant and the other witnesses who testified here as victims.  Do you remember ...[End of tape 2B - no follow-on sound]