Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-08-04

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe, I believe the victims are present now?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you, Mr Chairman.   God being the God of love, made it possible for the victim to be available.   She is sitting next to me, she is the wife to the deceased, Isaac Magala, but the other victim is not there, it is Mr Bokaba, the father to the deceased, he is in Themba in the area of Hammanskraal, in the rural areas.   I have had the opportunity of speaking to a Captain Wiese, he brought the victims who are here, and he informed me that he tried also to get in touch with the Themba Police Station and he was told by the police that they don't have vehicles to go and fetch him, and besides he is in the rural areas of Hammanskraal, but at least we can continue with the victim who is... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: But, Mr Mpshe, you will be representing the interests of the victims?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, before we proceed then, I'd like to thank you for the efforts that you have made in getting hold of the victims, taking in to account the fact that we brought this hearing forward one day because of the postponement of the postponement of the other matter, and also the staff of the TRC who assisted you, and I'd also like to thank Captain Wiese for his efforts in allowing the victim to be here, thank you very much.
	I would just like to, at this stage, introduce the panel that will be hearing this matter.   
	On my extreme right is Advocate Sigodi, he's from Port Elizabeth, on my immediate right is Advocate Bosman, she is from the Cape now, formerly of Pretoria, and on my left is Advocate Motata, who is an advocate from Johannesburg, and I'm Selwyn Miller, and I am a judge in Transkei.  
	I'd like the legal representative for the applicant please to put himself on record.

MR MULLIGAN: May it please you, Mr Chairperson, I'm Andre Mulligan from the firm of attorneys called Andre Mulligan Attorneys, I'm appearing for the applicant, Mr Ambrose Armstrong Ross, in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mulligan.   Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman and members of the committee, I'm J M Mpshe, representing the Truth Commission, in particular Amnesty Committee, and in this hearing that includes the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mpshe.   Mr Mulligan?

MR MULLIGAN: Mr Chairman, I would, at this stage, like to call the applicant to give his evidence under oath in terms of the Act.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   In which language will Mr Ross be testifying in, Mr Mulligan?

MR MULLIGAN: He would prefer to give his evidence in Zulu, Chairperson.

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: (sworn states)

MR MULLIGAN: Mr Ross, you are the applicant in this matter, and you are presently serving 20 years imprisonment in Leeukop Prison, is that correct?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That is correct, sir.

MR MULLIGAN: Right.   Further, there were three - you were found guilty on one count of armed robbery, plus two counts of murder relating to an incident that occurred on the 26th of October 1991 at Ledig(?) in the former Bophuthatswana Homeland, is that correct?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That is correct, sir.

MR MULLIGAN: Right.   At this stage, you've indicated to me that you want to take everybody in your confidence and you want to give a full disclosure of what happened just before the incident and during the incident.   Is that still your intention today?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That's my intention, sir.

MR MULLIGAN: Right.   On the 15th of October 1991, you attended a meeting, is that correct?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That is correct, sir.

MR MULLIGAN: Where did this meeting take place?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: We held that meeting in Diepkloof, at the COSAS room.

MR MULLIGAN: Who attended this meeting?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That is correct, I attended that meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mulligan, which room was that, the COSAS?

MR MULLIGAN: Ja, COSAS.

CHAIRPERSON: C O S A S?

MR MULLIGAN: That's... (intervention).

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: COSAS room, yes, that is correct, the COSAS room.

MR MULLIGAN: Who were in attendance and what was the purpose of this meeting?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Members of the SDU's around my area in Diepkloof attended that meeting.

MR MULLIGAN: If you use the word SDU, you mean street defence unit, is that correct?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That is correct, I'm talking about street defence units, sir.

ADV MOTATA: Before you proceed, may I just interrupt you for a second?   Where is this Diepkloof located, where you attended the COSAS meeting?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: It is a small township around Soweto, sir.

MR MULLIGAN: Right, so Diepkloof is in Soweto?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Can you repeat the question, sir?

MR MULLIGAN: What was discussed at this meeting?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: We were talking about ways in which we can use to protect our community, mainly about the violence which continued at that time, and then again to protect the community against crime which happened in our community.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Ross, the word SDU's, or rather the expression SDU has been used at other hearings and I was then understood it to mean self defence unit.   Is street defence unit and a self defence unit two separate things?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Self defence unit and street defence unit are not one and the same thing.   We attended the meeting of the street defence unit, not self defence unit.

MR MULLIGAN: Now who was leading this meeting?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: It's Comrade Makarof, who stays in Zone 6 in Diepkloof.

MR MULLIGAN: Just give the name again?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Comrade Makarof, he stays in Zone 6 in Diepkloof.

ADV MOTATA: It would appear Diepkloof is divided in zones.  Where are the COSAS offices located, in which zone are they in Diepkloof?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Maybe you didn't hear me from the start, COSAS, I'm talking about a room in a particular school, which is Diepkloof High School, and there is a room which was called COSAS room.   COSAS is the name of the room, not the organisation as it's known generally.

ADV MOTATA: What I am after is that, where is this Diepkloof High School which houses the COSAS room, in which zone is that high school, that's what I want to know?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: It is in Zone 2, sir, Diepkloof High School is in Zone 2.

MR MULLIGAN: Now did Comrade Motepa also attend this meeting?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Yes, that is correct, Comrade Motepa attended that meeting.

MR MULLIGAN: Who was Comrade Motepa, what function did he perform?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: Comrade Motepa was a member of the Umkhonto weSizwe.

MR MULLIGAN: And that was the armed part of the ANC, is that correct?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That is correct, sir.

MR MULLIGAN: Right.   Then, two days later, is it correct, there was a further meeting, is that correct?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: That is correct, sir.

MR MULLIGAN: Where was this meeting held?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: It was held at the same COSAS room in that Diepkloof High School.

MR MULLIGAN: Can you give me the names of the people who attended that meeting?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: We were eight, it was Comrade Owen, Sabumaphalala, who stays in White City, Comrade Vusi who stays in Orlando East, Comrade Sepiwe who was staying in the same street with me in Diepkloof, Comrade Motepa, Comrade Paul Makubela who stays in the same street with me, we were eight, I think I've counted six.   Comrade Vusi, Comrade Owen, Comrade Motepa, Comrade Paul, Comrade Phute, Original Sibajane and myself.

MR MULLIGAN: Right.   What was discussed at this meeting?

AMBROSE ARMSTRONG ROSS: We were called by Comrade Motepa, he discussed with me prior the meeting, which was held on Tuesday, we were talking about attacking Ledig Police Station.

MR MULLIGAN: What did you discuss there, can you just tell us what was fully discussed there?