Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-13

UNKNOWN: Yes.
MR VAN ZYL
"Wednesday, the 30th of August 1989, I was requested by the Regional Manager to go to the Protea Gardens hotel in Berea, Johannesburg.  There I met the Regional Manager, Nick, and the person from the Medical Regiment in the room.  The Regional Manager told me that the project concerning the Early Learning Centre had been approved and that the Managing Director let him know that if one more bomb was activated by the Kewtown Youth Movement, he would see it as my fault.  The Regional Manager then informed me that the Co-ordinator was on his way with the limpet mine, and after approximately three-quarters of an hour the Co-ordinator arrived at the hotel, with the limpet mine packed in a cardboard box.  The limpet mine with a remote control, was shown to me and he demonstrated the working of it.  The limpet mine was a great big grey Russian fabricated limpet mine, while the detonation mechanism was a pocket calculator with an aerial.  The calculator would detonate the bomb by pressing the minus button.  I have never worked with explosives and I was worried that life loss could result and I was also worried because I was not an expert in this field.  I then requested the Regional Manager and the Co-ordinator for help and I suggested that Botha would accompany me to the Cape to handle the bomb because he had knowledge of explosives.  The Regional Manager agreed and paged Botha, upon which Botha arrived at the hotel and the working of the limpet mine was explained to him by the Co-ordinator.  Botha agreed to help with the project and the necessary arrangements were made."

UNKNOWN: Now what is Nick, the finances man, doing at this meeting?

MR VAN ZYL: He was there, I do not know.

UNKNOWN: You've no idea what he was doing there?  It was a breach of the need-to-know principle.

MR VAN ZYL: No, I don't necessarily believe so, but I cannot tell you what exactly he was doing there.

UNKNOWN: Someone from the Medical Regiment, what's he doing at a meeting where you're going to discuss structural damage to a building?

MR VAN ZYL: I do not know, I cannot answer the question.

UNKNOWN: Didn't he say something at the meeting?

MR VAN ZYL: It is possible.

UNKNOWN: What did he say?

MR VAN ZYL: I cannot remember, Sir, I do not know what they were doing there.

UNKNOWN: You don't know what he said, you don't know what he was doing at the meeting and you'll agree with me that it's strange that he was at the meeting?

MR VAN ZYL: I do not find it strange, he was a known member, an aware member, and under the circumstances I do not find it exactly strange.

UNKNOWN: Well if it's not strange, explain to us what he was doing there.

MR VAN ZYL: I cannot explain to you.

UNKNOWN: The mere fact that he was a "bewustelike" lid doesn't explain him being there.  Your evidence all along has been that you do not, even if you are a "bewustelike" lid, go to meetings that don't involve your own projects.

MR VAN ZYL: That is the case.

UNKNOWN: So he must be there to serve a purpose.

MR VAN ZYL: It was probably so.

UNKNOWN: Otherwise he was not allowed to be there.  Why was he there?

MR VAN ZYL: I cannot explain that.

UNKNOWN: Alright.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he the same person that we spoke about earlier with regard to the poison in the Omar project?

MR VAN ZYL: Nick.  That is exactly so.

CHAIRPERSON: Not Nick the medical ...(intervention)

MR VAN ZYL: And the Medical Regiment ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) the same person.

UNKNOWN: Now I assume that because we're now at the meeting where the limpet mine is brought to you, that Gen Webb has now approved the project.

MR VAN ZYL: That is so.

UNKNOWN: So by this stage, Wednesday the 30th of August 1989, the so-called second in-house must have taken place.

MR VAN ZYL: I agree.

UNKNOWN: Now I want to refer you to - before I do so, we can also assume that in approving the project, Gen Webb would have acted on the basis of information supplied by you.

MR VAN ZYL: No, Gen Webb would have acted on information that he had received from the Managing Director, Joe Verster.

UNKNOWN: Alright.

MR VAN ZYL: But I never made any presentation to a General.

UNKNOWN: No, we know that, but you made a presentation to Staal Burger, Staal Burger would have gone to speak to Joe Verster, Joe Verster would have then sat in a meeting where only he and Gen Webb were present.  That's how I understood it.

MR VAN ZYL: That is so.

UNKNOWN: Please go to bundle D, which is Gen Webb's amnesty application, page 19.  Now on this page - Mr van Zyl, on page D19, Gen Webb talks about the information which he had received regarding the objects of the Kewtown Youth Movement and he says that he received information that they were going to disrupt the election and that such disruption would involved inter alia, the following things.  You'll see at paragraph 1.1.1
"The launching of assaults on the lives of candidates"
Now you will agree with me you certainly furnished no information regarding planned attacks on the lives of candidates in the election.  You've mentioned nothing of the sort?

MR VAN ZYL: No, the only thing I mentioned was the threatening letter that was aimed at Mr Alex Anthony, but not a planned attack on any such person.

UNKNOWN: Alright.  Then, paragraph 1.1.3, at page 20, he says he also received information of
"A plan that had been made to start a fire in the squatter camp of Khayelitsha shortly before the elections, by which unrests would be started with accompanying disruption of the elections."
And he says he received information that the Kewtown youth were going to do this.  Now you didn't supply him with that information.

MR VAN ZYL: No, I did not.

MR MARTINI: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, maybe the gallery should also take it seriously and let's not joke.

MEMBER OF PUBLIC: ...(indistinct)) seek the TRC to get clarity ... that's what you are doing ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Please, please, let us have some order here.  Mr Kahanovitz.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.
	Mr van Zyl, please go to page 21 of bundle D, paragraph 2.1, you'll see Gen Webb says there:
"According to the information, the movement regularly had meetings in the Early Learning Centre in Athlone.  The particular source who supplied the information to us was not prepared to disclose his identity, which fact made it impossible to involve the police in this matter.  Under the circumstances it was decided that we should act against the persons in order to try and frighten them and to discourage them from continuing with their actions as planned according to the information received."
Now you've already said you've discussed nothing of the sort at your in-house meeting, correct?

MR VAN ZYL: That is so.

UNKNOWN: So certainly at your level no attention was focused on whether it might or might not be possible to involve the police taking action against members of the Kewtown youth.  It wasn't on your agenda.

MR VAN ZYL: No.

UNKNOWN: And you wouldn't know why the General mentions this?

MR VAN ZYL: No.

UNKNOWN: Now - I'm sorry, I left out some aspects in relation to the in-house, can you tell me, when you had your meeting at the in-house, what information did you have about the time that the Kewtown youth were scheduled to have their meeting?  Did you have any information?

MR VAN ZYL: We had information about that, that the meeting would have been held at approximately 7.30pm for approximately an hour, up to half past eight.

UNKNOWN: In fact you said in an earlier statement that you'd received information that the meeting would start at seven thirty and was going to carry on till 9 o'clock.  Is that correct?

MR VAN ZYL: It could be.

UNKNOWN: On page 42 of bundle B.  Now the plan in relation to who was going to be given the remote, who was going to press the button, what was the plan, what did you discuss at the in-house?