Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-12

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: To link up to the expansion of structures, at that stage Swaziland was primarily the responsibility of Eastern Transvaal and we in Natal had the attitude that we must wait until infiltration actually took place before we could work with those terrorists.  In other words we had to gather information in order to track them where they were residing.

MR VISSER: Are you busy saying that to a great extent the policy was to act reactively, to wait till things happen and then to start acting?  Is that what you're saying?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson, because of the structure we were limited like this.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it or were you saying till they crossed into Natal?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, until they came into our region Port Natal across from the Tugela River, that was because of the limitations placed on us because of the fact that there was no structure in place.

MR VISSER: To do what?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: We couldn't act outside of our division parameters, we couldn't gather information like that, information pertaining to the ANC and PAC.

MR VISSER: And this limitation was legitimate, it was legitimately predetermined borders, you couldn't go into Swaziland because you didn't have the jurisdiction to do so?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Legitimately yes and we were also restricted because of police regulations.  We had to work within our borders.

MR MALAN: Sorry, I want us to understand each other, what you are saying is that you couldn't operate in the Northern Natal operation and gather information there, but you did have access to information?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes we had access to the information, there was no limitations when it came to exchanging information.

MR MALAN: Why would it be necessary to gather information there in the first place?  Why couldn't Port Natal do that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I'll tell you why it became important to us now.  The target area of the infiltrating terrorists was the division Port Natal and they only moved through Northern Natal and Natal and therefore we had a problem and with the expansion of the Trevits structure up to division level, the opportunity was now created for us to work wider than our division borders.  Consequently, we now had access to Swaziland and we could now gather information there in order to prevent and also act pro-actively towards any act of terror which was destined at the divisions Northern Natal, Port Natal and Natal itself.

MR MALAN: In terms of what did the police regulations give you permission to go into Swaziland to gather information, surely it could not be the combination of the three former regions?  Were specific capacities created in order to cross the border to gather information?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Not in term of the police regulations, Chairperson, but by means of a document which described the activities of Trevits and because we did intelligence work it was the accepted factors that you act covertly or clandestinely and you gather information in such a fashion within a bordering country.

MR MALAN: I accept the practice because we've had evidence, but this document you are referring to which described the activities of Trevits, is that available and was it explicitly put like that, as you put it to us?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, maybe I must answer.  This document was already made available to the TRC and then my attorney just whispered in my ear and said that he'll see if he can find this document.  He is not at his office right now so it might create a problem, but as soon as we get hold of it we'll submit it to you.  Maybe I can just add Chairperson, because it's important here and with regards to Mr Malan's question that previously, some of the Amnesty Committee Members heard evidence before with regards to the Simonstad Council and some of the things that were decided there, one of them was that the separation of the defence force and the police had to be bridged by means of information exchange and linking up to that, because there was such a good relationship between the South African Government and the Swaziland Government and also  specifically the security branch and the security branch there, there was also a decision taken that the police, even though this was a strange country or it was not in South African borders, that in the exception of Swaziland the police would have access and that they could act there but the defence force could not act there and I'm not quite sure if that agreement was ever manifested in a written form, but there was a lot of evidence, especially that from General Johan Coetzee and also Pik Botha, that in those years there was very good cooperation and exchange of information did take place and the security branch members were permitted to go and work there and to gather information there and they were permitted by the Swaziland Government to do so.
	Can you please continue?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Very well Chairperson.  With the establishment of these structures it was easier for us to also exchange information with our colleagues at national intelligence and military intelligence.  There was a formal structure in terms of a Committee which from time to time had meetings, usually under the chairmanship of the commander of the security division in the Eastern Transvaal, during which information with regards to our target area which was Swaziland, was exchanged.

MR VISSER: Mr Botha, just to get back because now it's quite important, who manned Trevits, who were the highest officials?  Were there middle rank officials or were they ground level officials?  Who manned Trevits?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: It I can say permanent members of the Region Trevits, then it was the desks office, Taylor and myself and from time to time we were accompanied by our commanders.

MR VISSER: And did Trevits have executive capacity in the sense that they could give an instruction to a specific division other than that of gathering information, for example to eliminate a target for example?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Because you see the perception exists that Trevits, because people spoke of target development, that Trevits was the organ which identified a target, for example a person, and that he then could give instructions that that person should be killed.  Was that your perception and your experience and your understanding of Trevits?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Trevits was or the component Trevits was purely an information co-ordinating group.  We did gather information when we were requested to do so.

MR VISSER: And that information was that also given through to the higher structures?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Let's use an example just to put this whole thing in perspective, let's say for example a decision was made by the State President or the cabinet that because of different reasons which they considered to be good reasons, there must be an attack on the ANC's strongholds in let's say Maputo, would Trevits then have been contacted and to what extent?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes Chairperson, we were all the time tasked to gather information with regards to facilities and I refer specifically to houses, through routes, overnight assistance and specific high-profile ANC personalities within that specific host country, his residence, his motor car, all that kind of information had to be developed, in other words we had to get photographs of the locations of the places, we had to get photographs of the person, we had to know what his daily routine and activities entailed.

MR VISSER: And which car he drives?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes.