Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-07

MR MAPOMA: I would like you to turn to page 5 of the bundle of documents, and in particular to paragraph 11(b) where you say Sipiwe Mqweso, the Head of the Western Cape Task Force at the time, gave the order to retaliate if attacked.
	From what appears in your application, all that Sipiwe Mqweso instructed you is to attack when, I mean to retaliate when attacked and there was nothing in this application which says that you were ordered to go and conduct an offensive on anyone.  How do you explain this?

MANDLA MADUNA: Can you please repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: Just read your paragraph 11(b) of your application form on page 5 please.  Can you read?

MANDLA MADUNA: I have seen it Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now you have been asked to explain that.

MANDLA MADUNA: You see, an order was issued that we must go and attack gangsters at a certain house.  The one who was supposed to lead us was Tinage.  And it was Tinage who knew the location.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is not that.  The question is that you say Mqweso gave the order to retaliate if you were attacked.  Isn't that what you say there in paragraph 11(b)?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes Sir, it does say so.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that is what you are being questioned about now.

MANDLA MADUNA: What is the question?

CHAIRPERSON: There was no evidence that you were attacked, or that you retaliated?  You just went into the house and then you opened fire.  That is contrary to what you were instructed by Sipiwe Mqweso?

MANDLA MADUNA: As I have said already, Leklapa Mpahlele was - speaks in another language and I speak in Xhosa.  So there was a lack of communication.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there such a difference between the two languages?

MANDLA MADUNA: There is no big difference, but there is a little bit, the languages are not the same.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I know the language may not be the same, but to say to somebody that you must retaliate if you are attacked, that means if you are not attacked, you must not retaliate.

MANDLA MADUNA: You see when you go on an operation to attack, you are given an order that you must attack.  If there is somebody who retaliates or who attacks you, you then continue attacking. If there is somebody attacking you, you go on attacking. I don't know whether it is clear.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson.
	Now, Victor Sam, was he a member of the PAC?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes, as far as I know.

MR MAPOMA: So to your knowledge, when he - sorry Chairperson, he was also a taxi man?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: As well as yourself?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes, I was working in the taxi's.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the difference between the words defend and attack?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You are quite clear in your mind?  Explain to me what you understand by defend.

MANDLA MADUNA: To defend means you defend yourself against anything that may happen to you.

CHAIRPERSON: You usually defend yourself when you are being attacked, is that right?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And what is meant by attack?

MANDLA MADUNA: It means shoot or beat or attack, but be offensive.

CHAIRPERSON: So therefore it means that you are engaged in an activity, attack means that you are engaged in an activity which is an offensive activity, is that right?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We haven't heard about this Task Force and how the Task Force is constituted or made up.  	How do you become a member of the Task Force, please tell me that?

MANDLA MADUNA: I was recruited by Shaun Poqo.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you do when you become a member of the Task Force, that makes you different from an ordinary member of the PAC?

MANDLA MADUNA: If you are a member of the Task Force, even the members of the PAC is not supposed to know anything about you being a member of the Task Force for security reasons.

CHAIRPERSON: So what do members of the Task Force do which ordinary members, don't do?

MANDLA MADUNA: The members of the Task Force - if there is ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat the answer?

MANDLA MADUNA: The duty of the Task Force is to protect the members of the ANC whenever there are leadership people around.

CHAIRPERSON: The PAC.  Please Interpreter, you said to protect members of the ANC.

INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon, the members of the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: So to protect the members of the PAC, is that right?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And how many people constitute a Task Force?

MANDLA MADUNA: You mean how many people?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, how many go to make a Task Force?

MANDLA MADUNA: The Task Force is there nationally, in the national membership of the PAC.  Each and every region has its own Regional Commanders.

CHAIRPERSON: How many make the Task Force in the region in which you were?

MANDLA MADUNA: I don't know the number.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any other special duties that you perform by becoming a member of the Task Force?

MANDLA MADUNA: No.  Except like to give security at meetings and if the leaders are around.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the adjournment now, and we will resume at 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MANDLA MADUNA: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR FORTUIN: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: [inaudible]

MR FORTUIN: That is correct Mr Chairperson.  Mr Maduna, when you entered the house the night of the incident, did you enter the house first or was it Tinage that entered the house first?

MANDLA MADUNA: It was Tinage.

MR FORTUIN: Are you aware that during the trial, your trial, the evidence that was led was that you were the first one that entered the house?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes, I heard that.

MR FORTUIN: And you say, when did you stop firing when you were in the house?

MANDLA MADUNA: Tinage gave an instruction to withdraw.

MR FORTUIN: Mr Maduna, isn't it you stopped firing when your magazines were empty?  You only left when the magazines of your guns were empty?

MANDLA MADUNA: When Tinage was giving instructions to withdraw, my magazine was already empty.

MR FORTUIN: And was the magazine of Tinage also empty?

MANDLA MADUNA: I do not know.

MR FORTUIN: So you went in and simply emptied your magazine in the house?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes, that is so.

MR FORTUIN: You say you had been recruited by the Task Force, when was that, in 1992?

MANDLA MADUNA: Will you please repeat your question?

MR FORTUIN: When were you recruited for the Task Force, was it in 1992?

MANDLA MADUNA: Yes, that is correct.

MR FORTUIN: You see Mr Maduna, my instructions are that the Task Force was established in 1993.

MANDLA MADUNA: Will you please repeat that?

CHAIRPERSON: What is wrong with you, this question is very simple.  It is put to you that the Task Force was established in 1993.

MANDLA MADUNA: That is not so.

MR FORTUIN: In how many incidents, what training did you receive when you became a member of the Task Force?

MANDLA MADUNA: I received physical training and some military training.

MR FORTUIN: How many times did you receive training, where and by whom?

MANDLA MADUNA: I got an order that I should go to training course at 149 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I think the Interpreter is talking too softly, so we can't hear.  Carry on.

MANDLA MADUNA: The comrade that was training us, it was Wella who was giving us training at 149 Stadium.

MR FORTUIN: And what kind of training did he give you, shooting exercises, physical exercises?

MANDLA MADUNA: It was physical exercises, body fit and how to take cover, how to handle a firearm, how to control the trigger.  That was the type of training that I received.

MR FORTUIN: In how many incidents were you involved in Task Force activities, how many incidents did you participate in?