Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — 1997-02-24

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain Hechter, if we could just sketch a 
hypothetical situation.  Let us assume you went out eight to ten times or more or slightly less, and each 
time the information was wrong and there were no terrorists in the house and it was only Tsele, would there 
have been a stage, and I am asking you to speculate, would there have been a stage where Tsele would 
have been eliminated on his own?

JACQUES HECHTER: In all probability, as a result of the information which was received in my 
office, where he was involved at the staging of these bus boycotts.  I believe 
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ADV DU PLESSIS: 26

JACQUES HECHTER: that that instruction would have been issued at a later stage that he should have been eliminated.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And at that stage there was a decision?

JACQUES HECHTER: Definitely.  We got together and said that if the terrorists were there, we would 
have eliminated them all and if there were no terrorists we would have waited for them.  It was a golden 
opportunity to eliminate these terrorists together who had been trained.

ADV DU PLESSIS: ;	So his elimination was not something additional to the terrorists?  The terrorists 
were not the main objective, he and the terrorists were the objective?

JACQUES HECHTER: I believe so.  As I say it is difficult for me to explain, I did not take the 
decision, but from what I could deduce from the reports which I received from my
informants was that Joe Tsele was extremely active in destabilising the transport system and staging 
consumer boycotts and so forth, which resulted in serious assaults on innocent people, his own people in 
the area.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY

ADV DU PLESSIS: .

JUDGE MGOEPE: Captain we don't know whether the Bophuthatswana police did take any action 
against this person and at the time when you went out to go to his place, you had no information as to 
whether or not Bophuthatswana police had taken any action against him, did you?

JACQUES HECHTER: No, I had no information Chairperson.  I don't know if the Brigadier had, but I 
did not have any information.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Well, I am asking you now, would the fact that the Bophuthatswana as it was 
then, and the fact that they had their own security police, would the fact that they PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

GAUTENG: 27

JACQUES HECHTER: did not take any action against him, would it not have shown that the reports you received about him might 
have been incorrect?

JACQUES HECHTER: We operated on a variety of independent sources, information from 
independent sources and, I would not like to criticise the Bophuthatswana police of the time, but they did 
not work much and in any case, they did not have anything to do with our problems in the Republic of 
South Africa, they had problems of their own, so they would not have acted as such against persons who 
were causing problems in the Republic of South Africa.
	We had very little contact with them, with the
police or the Security Branch and what I know is, while I was a Detective, one would go to the police 
station and say
that you were looking for Joe Tsele and that they would give you someone who could accompany you to 
go and look for this person.  This is the type of cooperation which we had with them.  We did not have 
great cooperation, so I would not know if they had taken any action that night or not.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But are you saying that the reports you had about him, were only in regard to 
incidents which took place in the Republic of South Africa?

JACQUES HECHTER: No, no, the buses were burnt inside and outside the depots, around the depots 
and also on the Republic of South Africa's side.  And normally as people would come back from work, 
they would be assaulted or in the morning while they were on their way to work in the Republic, 
information which surfaced said that he was in control or in charge of this boycott.

JUDGE MGOEPE: In those instances  you would get reports that those incidents ... (intervention)
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GAUTENG: 27

JACQUES HECHTER: As I said to you, I did not specifically work with Union matters.  What 
happened is, for example if you found a target you would instruct your informants to monitor this person as 
thoroughly and for as long as possible and to try and infiltrate his organisation and become part of his 
activities so that they could tell you exactly what was happening there.  I did not work with the Union Unit, 
but at that stage I had informants.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I know you didn't work with the union, but I am just troubled by the fact that 
shouldn't you people before deciding on whether on not somebody should be killed, shouldn't you at least 
compare notes with the Security, your colleagues in Bophuthatswana, to confirm certain things?

<UNKNOWN>: mean you knew they had their own security system.

JACQUES HECHTER: That is correct.  We did not work with them, there was no cooperation.  There 
was no close working relationship with the Bophuthatswana police.

JUDGE MGOEPE: That would have been one of the best ways to establish the veracity of some of 
the allegations that were made against him.

JACQUES HECHTER: That may be so but we had no reason to doubt our informants.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Well you might have had no reasons to doubt your informants, but you had 
every reason to confirm the reports on the strength of which you would have to take a decision whether 
somebody should die or live.

JACQUES HECHTER: It was not my decision.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Well didn't you ordinarily expect that that sort of thing be done?

JACQUES HECHTER: I accept that Brigadier Cronje's information was such, I did not see the file or 
the docket in which such PRETORIA HEARING	AMNESTY/

GAUTENG: 28

JACQUES HECHTER: information was liaised, I accepted that at that stage Brigadier Cronje was convinced that that was the 
correct action.  I would not have doubted his decision in any way.  He was an honourable officer who I 
respected back then and I still have the greatest respect for.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Hechter, you on your version relied strongly on the confirmatory reports received 
from Mr Mamasela with regard to Mr Tsele's activities?

JACQUES HECHTER: For that evening, yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And that is why obviously senior police 
officers were part of the group which went on to Mr Tsele's house?

JACQUES HECHTER: A captain is not a very senior officer, Chairperson.  At that stage Brigadier 
Cronje was the Commanding Officer of the Unit and I did not question why he was accompanying us.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did Mr Mamasela explain to you how he had gone about to confirm the reports with 
regard to Mr Tsele's activities?

JACQUES HECHTER: He reported this to Brigadier Cronje, not to me.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you know the contents of the report he made to Brigadier Cronje with regard to how 
he had gone about to confirm?

JACQUES HECHTER: No.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you know how long it had taken Mr Mamasela to come with a confirmatory report 
regarding Mr Tsele's activities?

JACQUES HECHTER: No, Brigadier Cronje only called me in and said to me listen, this is the 
situation with regard to Joe Tsele, this was verified by Mamasela, we are going out 
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GAUTENG: 29

JACQUES HECHTER: tonight, there are possibly terrorists there and you must be prepared for this eventuality.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you had not been privy to any information with regard to Tsele's activities?

JACQUES HECHTER: No, the Brigadier during this meeting informed us in detail what the case was, 
but we did not discuss this over a length of time.  He only informed us what Mamasela had reported.
	I did not ask him questions whether this had been done over a certain period of time, three weeks, 
six weeks, I 
simply accepted that Mamasela obtained the necessary information and that it was reliable.