Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: Very briefly Chairperson, I'm not going to commenton the two incidents that the applicants referred to for the simplereason that I heard this information practically for the firsttime today when I read the affidavits, so there is
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very little for me to say about that because I really didn't know.  All that I can say at this stage is that my Gods, my ancestorsare very powerful indeed and also thanks to the community becauseI would imagine that by and large I am still in one piece todaybecause of the support that I received from the community.   Ithink Captain Hechter has made reference to that, indirectly atleast.   What I would like to say very briefly, I would like torefer to the evidence that was given here referring to me as someonewho supported terrorism and communism and all the other "isms"that you can think of, which the apartheid regime totally hatedand was totally opposed to.   I just want to put the record straightand point out that I certainly was never a terrorist, whateverthat meant, neither did I keep terrorist literature in my house,in my library.  The fact that I did read literature that madereference also to say to Marxism and so forth that does not inany way make one a communist or even a Marxist for that matter.  I believe that in my profession, in my vocation as a priest,if I have to make effective ministry to the people of God, I needto be fully informed about the lives of my people, the sufferingsof my people and other nations that found themselves in a similarsituation.   That I also needed to be informed about economicand political issues generally and that is the reason why I hadto read as broadly as possible otherwise it becomes very difficultto minister, meaningfully, to the people of God.   Let me alsojust say very briefly that when I came in here the first time,which I think was the Thursday or Friday when the hearings waspostponed, when I moved into the hall and saw the five gentlemenfor the first time and when Captain Hechter stood up and stretchedout his
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hand I had ambivalent feelings.   The first feeling was one ofuncertainty, of hesitation but also of deep scepticism, for thesimple reason that the last time I think when Captain Hechterand I met he had a gun in his hand pointed at my forehead.   Doorswere broken down, that's how he, Capt Loots and others gainedentry, but that's not an issue for me now, but I'm just sayingthat that was my first response when he stretched out his hand.  In the same time, because of my deep-felt belief as a Christian,but because also of the policy of the Government of National Unity,the main emphasis on reconciliation and building a new nation,my second sentiments immediately said to me stretch out your handand meet Captain Hechter.   I shook hands with all the other gentlemenand for me it was a very strange feeling.   Also when I, I hopethis is not relevant Chairperson I'm just trying to put the thingin context, but also when I saw Brigadier Cronje I also rememberedbecause they made reference to the church having been membersof their church and so forth, I remember an incident when he andhis troops of 25, 30 of them stormed into my house, early as usual12:30 or 1 o'clock in the morning, forced me to, at least frog-marchedme into my church with their hats on, smoking, and I said veryclearly I remember I said to Brigadier Cronje you may not haverespect for me as an individual, that's your democratic right,but as a Christian you ought to respect the house of God.   Beforethey left the church, they forced me to open the tabernacle whichthey threatened to blow up.   Those of you who are Catholics youknow what a tabernacle is, and how we regard that.   Finally asa compromise I opened it myself and they looked inside and theydidn't find what they thought they would find.   There
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again I shook his hand, I took his hand and I said as long asthe five gentlemen are now prepared to help all of us to builda new country, to take the issue of social justice very seriously,no longer just as rhetoric but as something that all of us haveto work for based on the spirit and policy of reconciliation,I say I'm prepared to take his hand and not to doubt his bonafides.   So these are just a few comments I wanted to makeChairperson so that in other words I'm saying that I'm not goingto refer to other incidents that happened which probably thesegentlemen may not have been informed or maybe not have been awareof because then I would be in a much better position actuallyreally to testify to something that I personally experienced,even though I was blindfolded and all the rest of it, somethingI could say something much more concrete about that.   We arejust dealing here with the situation of incidents that I was notaware of but only just say a few words in very broad terms aboutthe situation that existed and my attitude.   Thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: : Reverend do I understand you to be saying thatby shaking hands with the gentlemen you sort of accept their forgiveness?

ANSWER: Yes Chairperson, my assumption, I'm putting itvery carefully, my assumption is that this is not just an exercisein trying to qualify for amnesty, that there is a genuine desireon the part of the five gentlemen to show repentance for whatthey have done, but also to go further because as Mr Tibedi pointedout, that what is even much more important is something that needsto be done in terms of reparation beyond this exercise here.  By reparation I'm not really spelling out exactly what form thatcould take,
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I personally as an example would be delighted if one day, oneSunday, Captain Hechter, W/O Van Vuuren would go to my congregationthat I have served for 18 years in Shoshunguwe and for them tosay to the people there that yes we certainly are genuinely sorryabout what happened.   We are the people who made the life ofyour priest, your pastor, hell, for me that...(end of side 2)...especiallyto the victims, especially to those who suffered even worse thanourselves.   As an example for instance, if Captain Hechter andhis colleagues perhaps could pay their school fees, I'm just makinga suggestion, an example, I'm not saying that they should necessarilydo that, spare the school fees of one of the children of theirvictims who may be going to school these days.   It's just asan example.

<UNKNOWN>: Reverend we know perhaps knowing this, we havethat arrangement in the form of a rehabilitation and reparationcommittee that is taking care of.   Is that all that you wantedto say?

ANSWER: Yes that's all.   As I say, I was talking aboutthem as individuals not just the State doing certain things onbehalf, that's really what I'm really talking about.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: You've come here to give evidence about twoincidents of which you knew nothing about until you read the papersthis morning, is that it?

ANSWER: That is correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now, since you are here and since thesegentlemen are here, are you aware of any other incidents whichthey have not talked about in which you may have been involvedor implicated?

ANSWER: Yes Chairperson, on 21 and 22 August in 1986,I
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was abducted, abducted by two gentlemen that I really don't knowbecause I was blindfolded, handcuffed and driven to an unknownplace because I couldn't see it and I was kept there for two daysand I was abused and tortured continuously.   Now I can only guessthat when certain questions were put to me during the interrogation,I can almost suspect that perhaps certain voices might have belongedto some of these gentlemen, but that is really almost irrelevantin the sense that that is guesswork because you just asked aboutincidents generally.   It may well be that they might have beeninvolved in those incidents, I don't know.