Human Rights Violation Hearings — Rustenburg — 1997-05-07

PROF MEIRING: Bishop Dowling, thank you very much.  It was an inspiring account you gave and one is humbled by listening to you and your colleagues and the courage the Lord gave to you.  I saw that you came with a document in your hand, is that the more comprehensive statement?

KEVN P DOWLING: That is right, yes.

PROF MEIRING: Will you hand that to us please, afterwards.

KEVN P DOWLING: Yes, I will.

PROF MEIRING: Then we can add it to the statement.  I just want to ask one or two questions and then perhaps some of my colleagues would like to add to that.
 First, and only on a technical point, you spoke about Mr Johannes Mafatse who was killed.  Do you know whether he has made, or his survivors, his family, made a statement on his behalf?

KEVN P DOWLING: That I do not know.  All I know is he was a teacher and he actually worked with our first witness this morning.  I was never able to trace the family.  I do not know whether they made a statement and that is precisely why I wanted to make a statement, in case some of these, what I would call the little people of our society, perhaps they would not hear about the Truth Commission and would not give in a statement.  That is why I wanted to speak on behalf of him and the family, about that incident on March 21st where he died.

PROF MEIRING: But we have taken note of it and we will see from our side whether we can do something about that.

KEVN P DOWLING: Yes.

PROF MEIRING: I would like to ask only two or three questions.  You mentioned that you referred back to the South African Council of Bishops' Conference.

KEVN P DOWLING: Yes.

PROF MEIRING: Were they supportive, your colleagues in the Catholic Church, did they understand what you were doing, were they supportive of your actions?

KEVN P DOWLING: I got very great support.  Actually Archbishop Hurley from Durban, phoned me in the night of the march, when he heard that I had been ducking these projectiles and he said, he said I see your cricketing days have helped you to duck the bouncers, to duck the bouncing balls.
 And our Bishops' Conference of course, Kanya House in Pretoria, was bombed also, in the struggle days, but there our Conference Headquarters had a special fund which they had got from overseas to aid all kinds of action on behalf of human rights of the people.  And so all these court actions that I was able to bring against the Bop Government and so forth for Mrs Bopalamo for example, payment of the lawyers, all of this came out of that, with immediate effect.  There was no problem.  I just had to apply. ...(tape ends).  ....about the harassment of people and the church at St Joseph's Mission, because you must remember at every meeting that took place on our Mission, the people from Phokeng, brave as they were, had to go through these roadblocks on their way to the Mission and on the way back and risk being teargassed and beaten up, as I saw so often.  So they wanted us, our Bishops Conference gave me complete support and the SACC as well from Rustenburg for the stand we took.

PROF MEIRING: And the local churches, the other church communities in Rustenburg, did they understand?  Did they support you and your community?

KEVN P DOWLING: I can't speak for all the churches.  One fact that saddens me is that, talking just about the Christian pastors community in the whole Boputhatswana area, we were not united.  There was a ministers' fraternal called Bomifra, Boputhatswana Ministers Fraternal, Bomifra, whose patron was President Mangope himself and three or four of those ministers were in his cabinet.  They, when you heard them speak, sadly, it sounded as if they were talking on behalf of the Boputhatswana Government.  They were divided from the other group that I have mentioned, headed by Reverent Johannes Selapedi, who is now the Minister of Agriculture in the North West Government, around the whole issue of human rights.
 So we had a pastors' community that was divided, sadly.  And I would say that goes for many actual church communities.  You had some people who supported Mr Mangope, even right to the end, perhaps did not understand the issues I am talking about human rights.  Other people in the same church communities who were totally opposed to Mr Mangope.  And that was so in my own Catholic community as well.  And I would say possibly in the some of the other communities, but I cannot for them all.

PROF MEIRING: Bishop Dowling, on the 14th of December this year the Truth Commission closes its doors and then it is over to the communities to carry on with the great work of reconciliation.  Do you think that the church community, your community, but the other churches too, will be able in Rustenburg to work on reconciliation?  Are you optimistic, are you positive about what the churches may contribute to future reconciliation in this community?

KEVN P DOWLING: I would be, I think we've got good leadership in this area.  I think the people are wonderful, very forgiving.  I always found the people very understanding and forgiving.  I think it is up to the churches, particularly the people who suffered, who may need on-going counselling and support and we see the emotional trauma that people have been through.  I am just afraid that some of these little people will fall through the sieve and won't be able to be contacted or whatever.  I feel perhaps when we get the Truth Commissions' report at the end, the recommendations, the on-going work is going to have to begin in a serious way and, but I believe that even with all the problems, even with the rightwing element in this area, which was so strong, I think we have a chance, provided that people can at least move from the basis of human rights and that we are human beings, people created in the image of God.  If we can start from there, whatever faith groups there are, not only Christian.  We can do something, I think.  But it is going to be a long journey, I think, a long journey.

PROF MEIRING: Bishop Dowling, from my side, thank you so much.  We know that you delayed a visit to Rome, all your colleagues, your fellow Bishops have already left for Rome to meet with the Holy Father.  You stayed behind for this day.  Thank you, so much.  You really did inspire me and all of us.  Thank you for your testimony and thank you for what you have done to this community and may the Lord bless you and keep you in your Ministry in the years to come.  But over to the Chairperson.

KEVN P DOWLING: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ally.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much, Chairperson.  Bishop Dowling, you mentioned three groups of people, you mentioned three groups of people who harassed you.  You mentioned the rightwing groups, the old Bop Government and also the Bop Security Forces.  You did not mention the South African Government, or the South African Forces, Security Forces.  Were they not part of, did they not play a role in the, a direct role in the harassment, especially given that your Mission was still part of South Africa?