Amnesty Hearings — East London — 2000-02-03

MR SMITH: Okay, how did he then communicate that, he was now in your sight when you gave him this order?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: That's right.

MR SMITH: How did he communicate that to the people that he was in charge of?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I think maybe over the radio.

MR SMITH: So if Mbene used a radio that order would have gone to all the troops on the net?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: All the commanders on the net.

MR SMITH: And would they have interpreted that as an order to open fire?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No because Major Mbene, I believed that he mentioned Major Ndandiso single fire, single shots fire.

MR SMITH: You're not sure what he ordered?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, according to Major Mbene, he talked to me Sir, he has said that Major Ndandiso single shots fire.

MR SMITH: Is that what he told you afterwards or did you hear him say that?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No he told me after.

MR SMITH: Mbene said that, in the enquiry that he could not because of the oncoming crowd he could not give full fire control orders and that there were guidelines that troops must fire single shots?  Do you have any comment on that?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes he is right because at that time I think he had no time to give full fire control orders.

MR SMITH: So if he says that or if he gave the order over the radio that that would have been basically going to all the soldiers deployed there?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir.

MR SMITH: And could that be why soldiers opened fire without being specifically instructed to do so?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I cannot tell, Sir, because I think Major Mbene was specific that he directed this order to Major Ndandiso only so the only company orders are also aware of the fact.  If you are being given instruction to one person, only that person must execute that order.

MR SMITH: You see there's also - let me first get this on record, the company commanders would have been the people in control of the soldiers where you were, Jangilanga Crescent, Fort Hare University, parliamentary buildings?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR SMITH: Those would be the companies?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR SMITH: You would have at least three company commanders?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir.

MR SMITH: Wouldn't Mbene have been one as well?  Mbene would also have been a company commander?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, he was my second in command.

MR SMITH: Okay.  Now Mbene said at this enquiry that after hearing the shots you told him to stand by, he would confer with Colonel van der Bank and you came back to him and gave the command to open fire on the radio.  He then says you then gave the company - you then gave the order to the company commanders to open fire?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, I deny that statement, it's not like that.

MR SMITH: That was his evidence before the internal board of enquiry?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, I never instructed the commanding commanders to open fire, I only instructed Major Mbene to use minimum force thereby.

MR SMITH: Now why - yes, here he also says, they asked him "how did you give the order to fire?"  He says that he pressed a - I presume a precell switch and shouted loud to open fire, all company commanders on the net could hear this and "the members in my vicinity heard my verbal command.  The company commanders all of them confirmed that they heard the command and also confirmed the same way when I ordered cease fire."  From what he says it appears to me that an order was given to all company commanders to order their troops to open fire whether they were in danger or not?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, it's not like that, Sir.  The only people which I gave an order to open fire is the people who were with Major Ndandiso and those who were under threat, those that the crowds that were coming from.

MR SMITH: Now if that is so, if we accept that, why do you send the troops at the parliamentary buildings and at the Fort Hare buildings, open fire?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I can - ...(indistinct) that was an undisciplined soldier, they were undisciplined because we never say that must open fire.

MR SMITH: So they were acting unlawfully?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes I can put it that way Sir because I never gave them orders to fire, only the company of Major Ndandiso that I did order to open fire.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't accept responsibility for those actions of those soldiers?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir, I cannot.

MR SMITH: Now the order to cease fire, why was that not immediately adhered to?  Why was it not immediately obeyed.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: As far as I am saying, when the shooting was started, after a second I said "cease fire", all the companies have cease fire, they've adhered to the order.

MR SMITH: Sorry, did I understand your reply?  You say you ordered fire, you said "cease fire" and they all ceased fire?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, I ordered fire to Major Ndandiso and then simultaneously, all the troops fired, I heard some fire from parliament, from all directions there was fire.  I say "cease fire".  I then talk on the radio at that stage, that cease fire and then all the fire was being stopped.

MR SMITH: But why does Van der Bank say that he had to intervene, also said that he had to give orders three times over the radio to cease fire?  Nobody was ceasing fire, they were in fact - a finding by Judge Goldstone that then was that there was firing, a pause and firing commenced again?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir, if I can put it this way, I ordered cease fire and then the firing stopped but there was some shots which I don't know which come from but I say again cease fire.

MR SMITH: Now do I understand you, minimum force it was supposed to be one shot per soldier?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir.

MR SMITH: Now can you give us an idea of how many people were deployed at Fort Hare only?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: At Fort Hare I think it was also a platoon and then at parliament it was also a platoon and then along the streets down to Radio Ciskei and up to the ministerial complex also a platoon.

MR SMITH: Now from - okay, you were aware that Mr Scroobie did an inspection immediately after the shooting?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR SMITH: And one of these observations was that there was 185 rounds fired from the Jangilanga Crescent area where you said there was at most 72 soldiers, two platoons?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR SMITH: That wouldn't have constituted a single shot per soldier?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes I can say so, Sir.

MR SMITH: And at Fort Hare he found that 240 shots had been fired where you said there were 36 soldiers, that would also not be single shots?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes Sir.

MR SMITH: Are you quite sure that you gave an order to use minimum force?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes I'm quite sure.

MR SMITH: Now you said that you used your own initiative?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR SMITH: In ordering that?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes.

MR SMITH: Why did you not or did you consider ordering that they fire into the air or fire above the heads of the approaching people?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No I haven't considered that, I've just said to Major Mbene, "Major Mbene, minimum force fire".  So as a commander he must also take also your initiative "what must I do now" because Colonel van der Bank gave me the order that "shoot" so I say minimum force fire.

MR SMITH: Okay, now regard to this rocket launcher, Mr Gonya in his application said that his instructions were only to fire that rocket launcher on your instructions.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes to employ that rocket launchers that will be under my instructions but at that stage I never ever say any order or any instruction to Gonya to shoot a rocket launcher at any stage.  Was he inside the vehicle you said earlier?