Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR SIBAYA: The first one is Domvilele, have you written that down?

MS QUNTA: Yes.

MR SIBAYA: The second daughter is called Nombeni.

MS QUNTA: And the surname is the same as yours?

MR SIBAYA: Yes, it is the same.

MS QUNTA: Do they have any English names?

MR SIBAYA: No, not at all.

MS QUNTA: When you went to the Guguletu Police Station and you told the policemen that you saw what you say you saw you say you gave - they sent you out, they sent you away?

MR SIBAYA: They looked at the paper and listened to what we were saying.  They said to me there are no soldiers that would leave arms in a car.  They then also said that Heidelberg is up-country.  Our question was that because this car is from the Transkei they could be on their way to Heidelberg.  It could be a stolen car.  They then said our story was not true.  They took my name and address and said we must leave because we were drunk.

MS QUNTA: And you gave them the diagram?

MR SIBAYA: Yes.

MS QUNTA: And what did they do with that diagram when you were in the Station?

MR SIBAYA: They looked at the diagram and said that Heidelberg is up-country.  I said to them these people could be headed up-country because this car is not even from here.  They said our story was not coherent we must leave.  They tore the paper, said we must go and sleep because we were drunk.  They only took my name and address.  They did not want anything further than that.

MS QUNTA: Now I have here with me extracts from the Occurrence Book of the Police Station for the evening Thursday 30 December 1993 and Friday 31 December 1993.  You said in your statement that you went there at about quarter past twelve, between quarter past twelve and half past twelve.

MR SIBAYA: Going where?

MS QUNTA: On the 31st, going to the Police Station, to Guguletu Police Station, that's what you told us in your statement.

MR SIBAYA: Yes it was after midnight when we went there.

MS QUNTA: Now there is no entries in respect of that incident or your reporting here, Mr Sibaya, nothing.

MR SIBAYA: Written where?

MS QUNTA: In the Occurrence Book, we've got - now in a police station, as you know, they make reports of incidents that are reported to them.  They have for instance here if I can perhaps give an example of a sick report by a constable.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman may I simply confirm that it is common cause that the police never recorded the report alleged by this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's move on.

MS QUNTA: Yes, I'm moving on, I'm not wanting to belabour this point but I just want to put it as a background.
	Now Mr Sibaya I want to put it to you that if you walk into a police station and you tell the police you've just seen a group of people with a load of weapons getting out of one car and getting into another car and driving away and you give them a diagram with the words "Observatory and Hartleyvale" written in that, and they then tell you that you are drunk, or Heidelberg is up-country, it really needs a lot of imagination to believe you.  I cannot see a policeman in the atmosphere of '93 doing that.  So I am putting to you that you never went to Guguletu Police Station.  You are not telling the truth.

MR SIBAYA: Ma'am they said that what we were saying was not true, this is why they told us to leave.

MS QUNTA: You see on that same Occurrence Book, Mr Sibaya, at 4:30 it is written that there was a shooting incident in the same township, in the same Occurrence Book and you want to convince this Committee and the public that if you go in there saying you saw a man with a bunch of guns and with a car that moved away and a diagram of a place in Cape Town, in Observatory, Hartleyvale, that the police would shoo you away in 1993?  And they write your name and address but they don't write the incident, you are not telling the truth.

MR SIBAYA: I did not know what was happening, they did not know what was happening either.  It is them that did not take seriously the statement that I was giving.

ADV SANDI: Mr Sibaya how many police were there when you came to the Police Station?

MR SIBAYA: I could not remember that because it was very late.  I just went to the policeman at the counter.  He called another policeman, they both then agreed that I was fabricating.  We were drunk.  We were scared.  They said that there is no soldier that will just leave a car.  This is why they said that our story is not credible.

ADV SANDI: Would you say there were many police, there were two, three or four, I accept that you can't give the number?

MR SIBAYA: There was one policeman at the counter, we told him what happened.  He told another policeman, we told them that a car was being stolen.  They concluded that these people must have been looking for a particular place, they just told us to leave.  What I am trying to say is they did not believe us.

ADV SANDI: Did you know any one of them?  Had you seen any of those police before?

MR SIBAYA: I don't know the Guguletu police, I hardly ever go to the police station.

ADV SANDI: Is it that you say that you were talking to police you had not seen before, you had not met them before?

MR SIBAYA: I hardly ever go to the police station, I am not a person with such problems.  If I have a problem at home I sort it out at home.

ADV SANDI: If you were to see any one of those police you say you saw at the police station would you be able to remember or identify his face?

MR SIBAYA: I couldn't be sure Sir, but if it is said that he was on duty on that day perhaps I could identify him but I can't be sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the name of the policeman to whom you spoke?

MR SIBAYA: No I did not even ask for the name.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know the name of the other policeman who was called in?

MR SIBAYA: I couldn't remember them Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Were names mentioned, were they called by their names, did one policeman call the other policeman by name?

MR SIBAYA: The one said to the other, "Sergeant come and listen to these people".

CHAIRPERSON: Did he not mention the name of the Sergeant, did he just say "Sergeant"?

MR SIBAYA: Yes he just said "Sergeant".

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes do carry on.

MS QUNTA: Mr Sibaya you went with Mark Killian, do you recall going with Mark Killian to NY141 no.67 pointing out?

MR SIBAYA: What are you talking about?

MS QUNTA: Okay, I am going to show you - the person sitting across there is Mark Killian.

MR SIBAYA: Yes.

MS QUNTA: Do you know him?

MR SIBAYA: No I don't know him.  Is he the one I went to the Township with?  Are you talking about that man?

MS QUNTA: Yes.

MR SIBAYA: Yes well I recognise him now, I recognise him.

MS QUNTA: Now you recall you went with him to NY141 no.67?   That is the lady you said was your girlfriend in your statement, I think it's Mrs Khosana?  Do you recall going with him there?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman with respect it's not quite correct.  If my learned friend is referring to page 3 of the supplementary bundle, paragraph 1, that is the third last paragraph it doesn't say that they went to NY141 67, they went to another address.

MS QUNTA: Oh yes that's correct, my apologies.  In fact, yes, I want to establish that he was in the company of Mark Killian when they went to see this person. The Interpreters, I need to know whether he agrees with me.

MR SIBAYA: Yes we went to where he worked, I showed him.

MS QUNTA: Now she denied that she was your girlfriend and she said in fact that you were neighbours at some point in Nyanga East.

MR SIBAYA: Yes well she does deny, she always denies.

MS QUNTA: (Laughs)  I beg your pardon.

MR SIBAYA: Let me tell you something, to have a love relationship in a shebeen is not the same as a formal love relationship.

MS QUNTA: So in fact Mr Sibaya she was not your girlfriend?

MR SIBAYA: Let me put it this way Ma'am, I did not know even her address was, we met at a place where we were drinking, a shebeen I think.