Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-01

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: ...or when the fire was detected... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: ...okay?

CHAIRPERSON: ...but when he says is... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Let's get that very clear.

CHAIRPERSON: ...what he says is that that is more likely to have been happening en route from Taipei rather than at the time that it was preparing to descend.   I think that's what is sought to be put to you.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Ja, okay.   Remember when the incident happened he wasn't preparing to descend, he was still at top of level flight, and you can ask about the flying people about that.

MS TERREBLANCHE: Still top of descent?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Well, before that.   Okay, he wasn't on top of descent at that point, okay?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Mr Van der Veer, if he was not at top of descent, he would have been very close to top of descent?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Very close to it, likely.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Then it would be unlikely that dinner would have been served... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...at that time?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.   I'm not arguing that point with you.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Now, you very, very fairly conceded that if dinner is discussed aboard the CVR, it places the event which caused the CVR to stop working closer to Taipei than to Mauritius?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes, from that point of view, yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: And therefore a discussion about dinner would be extremely important, if it were so and if it were true?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Right.   Are you aware of a group of people who call themselves the Flight Engineers Association?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Do you know that they prepared a report for Judge Margo?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No, not specifically.   I know a lot of people have prepared reports for Judge Margo, or for the commission... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: The question is... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: ...for the commission.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...do you know whether they did?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: If you ask me specifically, I cannot say so.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Okay.   Are you aware of Jimmy Mouton, does the name ring a bell?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Jimmy Mouton, Jimmy Mouton?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Jimmy Mouton.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Just give me some more information please?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Well, he calls himself Jimmy Mouton, but other people call him Jimmy Mittens.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Are you aware... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Except for having read, is this the same name on the document?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: That is correct.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Okay.   No, not aware of such... (inter-vention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Are you aware of Ray Scott?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Explain please who Ray Scott is?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: He was also part of the airline Flight Engineers Association.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Not specifically, sir.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Are you aware of a man called Judge Bedaar

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: How do you spell that?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: B E D A A R, and Judge is obviously a nickname.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: And does the name Peter de Beer also not ring a bell with you?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Peter de Beer in what context?

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: He was the chairman of the airline Flight Engineers Association.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Do you remember him?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Now, I've put to you a version about the tape recorder which you have found reasonable, it is not an unreasonable suggestion and in fact you yourself have agreed that the event was the fire and that that caused the lack or the cessation of function of the CVR?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: I want to tell you that the Flight Engineers Association put together a report and attempted to put it before Margo.   Are you aware of that?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.    Not to the best of my knowledge again, I... (intervention).

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Are you aware that Margo refused to hear it?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.   I wouldn't be able to understand why he should.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Should hear it or should not hear it?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Why he should not hear it.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Absolutely.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I mean there was an open invitation to everyone to submit evidence.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Correct.   And Margo, together with SAA, wanted to find out the truth, is that not correct?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I hope so.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Are you aware that all the members of the airline engineers committee were called into Margo's chambers, are you aware of that?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: I presume then you're also unaware that they were told to drop their inquiry?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I'm not aware of that.   I see the allegations, or whatever, the reference in this thing.   No.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Do you find that strange, that Margo should call people in who wish to present him with a perfectly reasonable explanation, and are told to drop their inquiry?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes, I would.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: In fact it might even be improper?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I cannot make any judicial, but I mean it would be very - to me, I couldn't understand that.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Well is a judge's duty not to hear and test the evidence rather than to prevent it from coming before him in the first place?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I guess so.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: I'm going to read you something, Mr Van der Veer.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Please.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: This is from a man who was on that committee and was called into Margo's chambers, and I want your comment on this.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Uhum.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: He, Mittens and Judge Bedaar and Ray Scott were called into Margo's chambers and told to drop the inquiry.  It could cost the country 400 million rand and it was causing tension.   They were told that they did not have the expertise, and that national security was at risk.   Present were Mickey Mitchell, Judge Margo, your lawyers for the airline and he thinks the DCA was there.   Margo said to this individual, whose name is Ray Scott, "The safety of your future and your family are at risk".   Let me hear your comment about that?
TAPE CHANGES - WORDS LOST - START OF NEW TAPE

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Well if that had been said, do you find that reprehensible?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I wouldn't understand an attitude like that.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: But let's assume for a moment that it was said, what would you say?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: That's what I'm saying, it's unthinkable that that could happen, sorry, that's all I'm saying.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Have you read - do you remember who Guiseppe Belagarde was?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Yes.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Did you see there an affidavit from his wife?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I saw that.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: She was with Jimmy Mouton the day he was called in to judges chambers... (intervention).

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: I read that one just now.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: ...he came back visibly shaken.

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: Uhum.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: That's what she says.   Is there any reason why she should lie?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.

DAVID JOSEPH KLATZOW: Is there any reason for you to doubt that that was correct?

GERRIT DIRK VAN DER VEER: No.   If that's what she said, I don't know whether she did this under oath, I don't know.