Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-20

MR KEMP: Mr Chairman, I'm referring to the particular allegations which are relevant here.  If necessary, one may refer to the, as it was mentioned, unpleasant comments.  Those comments did not, not a single one of them, refer to complicity in violence or in assistance of people in violence in the sense that any of these applicants suggest and I submit that the statement made by me to the witness is fair and I am surprised that he would include in a general background a statement relying on submissions placed before the Goldstone Commission without giving this Committee the benefit of that Commission's finding in regard of those very same submissions.  And I would merely would like to invite his comment now that I've given him Mr Justice Goldstone's finding, Justice Goldstone and his committee's finding in this regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mndebele, Mr Justice Goldstone, in his report I think to the State President, indicated that he could find no evidence that he could rely on to indicate that there was any type of underhandish relationship between the Black Cats and the South African Police at the time.  What the advocate is asking you is to comment on that.  I would like to know from you as well if you agree with his finding or not?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I can say those who were within the Black Cats did assure us that they were working with the police.  That is why I am sure that they were working with the police because Israel Hlongwane did indicate to me that he's working with the police.

CHAIRPERSON: And at that time did you believe that to be the case?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes, I believed because they were not arrested.

MR KEMP: In all fairness to you, Mr Mndebele, I also intended to point out to you a further finding of the Goldstone Commission in which Mr Justice Goldstone and his committee reported that
"The committee is unable to find as proven that the SAP was unwilling to take action against the Black Cats.  It may well have been so whether or not there was every justification for the perception by many people that the SAP were working with the Black Cats."
So, the perception existed and Mr Goldstone also found that such a perception existed in the community.  Now, I merely want to put it to you that isn't what you are trying to tell this committee that such a perception existed, it may not necessarily have been so, but that perception did exist, isn't that correct?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I am saying things and the perceptions was as it were, it is because for example if one indicated that he knew a perpetrator one would expect the perpetrator to be arrested.  The person would be arrested and released the following day or not arrested at all.  There were many Black Cats in the police station, that is during the time of the violence.  They used to frequent to the police station.

MR KEMP: I merely wish to conclude, to put it to you, Mr Mndebele, that all these allegations were individually examined by Mr Justice Goldstone and he could not find one case to support the allegation made by you today.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KEMP

CHAIRPERSON: Are you wanting an answer to that?

MR KEMP: It was merely a statement put.  If the witness wishes to answer he is free to do so, but I don't require an answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, what's the point putting it to him?

MR KEMP: Because if I don't put it to him it might be argued that I never put my case to him.

JOHN MNDEBELE: I would like to answer that.  Those who were working hand in hand with the police should come before this Commission in order to confirm my allegations.  For instance, Sugar can come forward and tell the Commission that he was working hand in hand with the police.

MEV VAN DER WALT: Ek het geen vrae nie.

MR PRINSLOO: I've got no questions.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Mndebele, what was your position at the time, that is 1990 to 1992?  Were you in business or did you work?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I was a chairperson of the ANC at that time, locally.

MR HATTINGH: Did you also run a business?

JOHN MNDEBELE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Is it also true that the person who controls the community is the most successful businessman in that community?

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that question.

MR HATTINGH: Is it true that the person or grouping who controls a specific community also has the better opportunities of doing business there?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Opening up a business or conducting a business doesn't mean that you should be a prominent member of the community or be working with the community.  You do open up a business if you wish to.

MR HATTINGH: I make this statement because evidence will be led that businesses and the success of businesses was also something that played a role in the violence.  What is your comment in that regard?

JOHN MNDEBELE: That is not so.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, are you suggesting that that was peculiar to that time only?

MR HATTINGH: I'm not suggesting that it was peculiar to that time only, but I suggest that that may also have been a motive for some of the incidents.  The brief historical background document that was read out to you, can you just explain to the Committee, is this document your own version of events or is this just a document with which you assisted in the preparation thereof?

JOHN MNDEBELE: That is my document.

MR HATTINGH: Is this your statement?

JOHN MNDEBELE: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: All the details contained in this statement you are the source of those details?

JOHN MNDEBELE: That is correct.

MR SANDI: Sorry, Mr Hattingh.  Sorry, Mr Hattingh, just to cap over on this very issue concerning the document.  Are you the only source of this document, Mr Mndebele?  No one else had an input in the drafting of this document?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I'm the only one who wrote this document or statement and I submitted it to my attorney after writing it and it was typed.

CHAIRPERSON: Which document are you talking about?

JOHN MNDEBELE: I'm referring to the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.  I think we're talking about the document reflecting the general background of what led to the incidents.

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes, even that one I wrote.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you told me that that was primarily a document composed by the secretary?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Annexure A was compiled by the secretary when he was compiling the report with regard to the victims, people who got injured as well as those who died.  But the brief historical background was written by me.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you turn to page ten (10).  Now, page ten (10) is part of the document reflecting the general background, not so?

JOHN MNDEBELE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: In paragraph seven (7) there's reference to an annexure A?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that what you meant when you said that Mr Nkonyane drafted the document, were you referring to annexure A?

JOHN MNDEBELE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mister?

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  If we could go through this document from paragraph one (1) on page nine (9) of the bundle of documents.  To what extent was this document prepared?  With knowledge that you personally have and to what extent was prepared with what you heard from other people?

JOHN MNDEBELE: This is my personal knowledge.  The information that I received which proved that the police were working with the Black Cats was that the police were linked to the Black Cats and they were protecting the Black Cats.  That's the only information that I received.  The rest is my personal information as I experienced it and as I knew it.  The only thing that I heard was the relationship between the Black Cats as well as the police, that they were working together.

MR HATTINGH: In paragraph five (5), the meeting on the twenty second (22nd) of July 1990, did you attend that meeting?

JOHN MNDEBELE: Which paragraph is that?