Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

ADV MEMANI: And you heard Motsamai testify that Mr Nichos was a courier and you've already commented on that.  You also heard Mr Motsamai testify that Nichos used to help comrades in the township.

MR ERASMUS: I don't know what they helped with or what he helped them with, I don't have any knowledge of that.

ADV MEMANI: And you also heard Serame testify - that is Mr Molefe, I keep believing Serame is his surname, you heard Mr Molefe testify that Nichos was involved in the transportation of Chris Hani when he came into the country for the first time to address a meeting, either here in Bloemfontein or in ...[indistinct] I'm no longer certain, didn't you?

MR ERASMUS: I heard that testimony, yes Mr Chair.

ADV MEMANI: Wouldn't security branch then have interest in a person who was involved in all these things?

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chair, after 2 February 1990, the ANC was a legal organisation and the security branch had no interest in further monitoring these people.  And to return to the question, it is absurd that any action had to be taken against Mr Nichos because he had an association with Mr Hani.

ADV MEMANI: I am sure that you do not want us to believe that Nichos, rather Serame came back from prison after 1990.

MR ERASMUS: I don't know when he returned Mr Chair.

ADV MEMANI: And also that Nichos's house was bombed after 1990.

MR ERASMUS: I don't have any knowledge when the house or the shop was attacked.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you perhaps give us the date of the attack on the shop of Mr Nichos?

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, as far as I can recall we have never furnished any dates but I am sure in my mind that we are dealing with the era which was before 1990.  If I may take instructions M'Lord?  Mr Chairman, those are my questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: No questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

MR STANDER: Mr Chair, I failed raise two aspects with the witness, I will be as quickly as possible with your permission, like yesterday.  As it please Mr Chairman.
	Mr Erasmus, I understood that the leaders of the group of 19 on occasion were taken to the local Magistrates Court in order to go and make admissions there.  Do you have any knowledge of that?

MR ERASMUS: No, I don't have any knowledge of that.

MR STANDER: Because I wish to state to you that on the relevant day, the Magistrate refused to accept testimony of Mr Makubalo and Mr Oliphant because they had been seriously assaulted and this was visible, and for this reason the Magistrate refused to take their admissions.

MR ERASMUS: I can't comment on this because I don't have any knowledge of it.

MR STANDER: Another aspect which I failed to state to you was, that it was my instruction that you inter alias formed part of the group of security police officers who sometimes changed testimony and/or falsely concocted it in order to get a guilty or not guilty finding.  What do you say to that?

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chair, this is a serious allegation made against me and I would like to know who is making this allegation.

CHAIRPERSON: It's an extremely allegation.  Shouldn't you give instances and say who said it and when?

MR STANDER: I will tell you where it originates from Mr Erasmus.  This information inter alias - these incidents or these attempts to change evidence occurred on occasions when Mr Makubalo was kind of assaulted and you and all your group of security police officers wished to hide these facts because on occasion he was also accused of attempted murder.

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chair, I deny this but I would like to have more information regarding exactly what is being referred to.

MR STANDER: I can't take this matter any further.  Those were my instructions.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I don't have re-examination but on a point of information an extremely serious other matter has now been raised which we haven't addressed our attention to at all, none of us, and that is that some of these people were taken to a Magistrate apparently, according to the question, and the Magistrate refused to take down confessions from these people and he did so because he could see that they had been assaulted.
	I didn't catch the names other than that of Oupa Makubalo.  Perhaps my learned friend could tell us who the other person was, I'm sorry I didn't catch the name, so that we can try to make enquiries about this Mr Chairman because we're totally unaware of this.

MR STANDER: The person whose name I mentioned was Mr Oliphant.  I can also tell you that I will attempt to receive those documents from the Magistrates Court, although my logic tells me that it we won't be able to do so because it took place in 1986 but I will try my best.  Another fact also, Mr Makubalo, you will remember when he testified during the previous session indeed told this Commission of this fact.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

CHAIRPERSON: And re-examination?

MR VISSER: None, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Erasmus, at some point when you were told that some of the people in the group of 19 were assaulted on the 5th floor, you said something like you had not received any complaints from them.

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chair, I was not involved with this group.  What I said was that I had never heard of any complaints from the side of these people and that also on occasion I visited them and that no complaints were mentioned to me or raised by them.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You visited them in prison?

MR ERASMUS: I visited them at Glen Police Station on a Saturday evening when I was officer on duty while they were in detention.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Did you go there specifically for the purpose of asking them whether they had any complaints?

MR ERASMUS: That was one of our tasks, to go and take care of these people to hear whether there were any complaints or problems.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You would have told them that you are a member of the security branch?

MR ERASMUS: Yes, affirmative Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I wouldn't expect some of them or most of them to have been well disposed towards the security branch, they must have had some misgivings about the security branch?

MR ERASMUS: I agree to that Sir.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I'm sure you didn't expect them to trust you when you said to them: "I'm a member of the security branch, if you've got any complaints of ill-treatment by security branch, tell me"?

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chair, many problems were raised with us, not necessarily assaults and I'm not referring to this particular group but in general, about food clothing, clean clothing, toiletries that
had to be provided.  There were indeed problems raised with us, not necessarily assaults.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Of course I was asking you questions about assaults?

MR ERASMUS: Yes.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I be allowed, perhaps just to take this aspect one step further.
	In 1986 Mr Erasmus, were there regulations applicable to visits to or controls over detainees in terms of security legislation?

MR ERASMUS: Mr Chair, there were a number of instructions given.  There were detention files that were kept, visitors files and all the visits by staff, personnel as well as visiting officers of the uniform police, district surgeon, Magistrates etc., were recorded.

MR VISSER: So what you are saying is that all these people who visited those detainees, the records were kept?

MR ERASMUS: Yes, and also when the Section 29 detainees were visited.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Erasmus, on this floor plan - and I'm going to give my copy to you, could you perhaps indicate to us whether any of these wings of the building went out or had an entrance onto a street - or could you indicate which of these wings fronted on the streets please? ...[intervention]