Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-25

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes, they came still armed with the very same assortment of weapons.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile, getting back to your evidence yesterday.  You said that they seemed to be upset and they also said when your brother tried to calm them down, they said that these are not empty threats, and I think your specific words were it was at that stage that your brother said to them that Sithole would not let this happen.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes, he did say that.  We went to report to the people at the office after having met Sithole.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile, and you also went on to say that at that stage ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have to repeat his whole evidence Mr Claassen.  We've heard it.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you.  I don't want to be tedious.  I'll leave it at that.  Mr Dastile, you went back to the field and you said that you were at that stage joined by this crowd of people.  Is this still the same armed bunch of people that you had just told us about?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Wait sir, I think you will create a confusion.  At the time when we left the office for the grounds, people with whom we were at the offices, did say it is okay even if you are going, we are not remaining behind, we are coming along with you because we want to satisfy ourselves that you are indeed discussing this with these people.

MR CLAASSEN: And this mob halted at Brown's place and your brother went on, on his, ahead on his own.  Mr Dastile getting to the point where you said that the ANC approached from the side of this, I believe it was a huge dustbin, at the rubbish bin, and you said that the people were walking swiftly and you heard a gunshot.  Is that correct?

AZHAR CACHALIA: Chair I think, just excuse me Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cachalia?  Sorry, sorry Mr Dastile, Mr Cachalia wants to say something.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I think Mr Claassen is not correct when he says the ANC people appeared from the side of the dustbin.  He was referring to the IFP.

MR CLAASSEN: Alright, I'm sorry Mr Cachalia, that's indeed what I wanted to say, that the IFP people came up, as I understand it, from the side of the dustbin.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Cachalia.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair, just to here, and my, if my notes is correct I think you said the people were walking swiftly, and when they were closer we heard a gunshot.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: That is correct.

MR CLAASSEN: Did you only hear a gunshot?  You didn't see anything happen, you didn't know where it came from?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: I could see the people who were shooting.

MR CLAASSEN: Did you, you also indicated that you retreated at that stage towards Mr Brown's shack as you put it.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen we don't have to have him confirm his evidence-in-chief.  You don't have to read it all back to him, because it's going to double up the length of the cross-examination.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.

MR LAX: Why don't you rather, if you'll allow me.  If there are things that you dispute, put it to him, that's the purpose of cross-examination.  He's not here to testify twice about the same thing.  If there are things your client disputes about what he's said in his evidence, put it to him.  Just simple.  That's what cross-examination's there for.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Lax.  I'll do it like that.  Mr Dastile, you indicated yesterday and I'd just like to put this to you, that the size of the IFP's were, according to your estimation, plus minus 100 people.  I would put it to you that they were indeed less than that.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: No, that was not a mistake.  I was not giving you a wrong information.

MR CLAASSEN: But that is an estimate?

MR LAX: Mr Claassen, why don't you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think obviously, he didn't count, let them stand in a row and count them.  I mean I think all these 400's, 200's, 100's they're all estimates.  We know they didn't have a head count or roll call.

MR LAX: Furthermore Mr Claassen, your client's own co-applicants put it at that figure themselves, some of them.

MR CLAASSEN: I'll leave it at that Mr Lax.  Mr Dastile, you also testified yesterday and this will of course, is denied by my, by the applicant Mr Sithole that, he at, while the ANC people were fleeing, he got on top of this shack and shot at the fleeing people from there.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes, he is trying to protect himself.  I am saying what I saw.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dastile, what sort of firearm did you see in the possession of Mr Sithole?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: An AK-47.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he the only person on the roof, or were  there a whole group of them on the roof?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: He was the only person that I saw on top of the roof.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile, at that stage ...(intervention)

ADV SIGODI: I just want to establish from the witness, what was the weather like on that day?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: It was raining.

ADV SIGODI: At the time of the shooting was it pouring with rain, or was it just drizzling?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: It was raining, not heavily, but it was raining.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Claassen.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr Dastile, how well could you see at that stage of the evening?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes, the vision was clear.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Dastile, I put it that, I put it to you that the vision was not clear, and specifically because of this rain that you are testifying to.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Claassen, how can you put it to him on that basis when your client testified that the visibility was clear?  You're going against your client's instructions.

MR CLAASSEN: Mr Lax I can't, if I'm not mistaken, I think he said, I think he said he could see fairly clearly to where the group was, on his own testimony approaching, maybe here ...

MR LAX: See my point?  If he could see them very clearly it's no good putting to this witness that

MR CLAASSEN: I see your point, obviously they could also be seen.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dastile if I could just ask you one question?  Do you know at approximately what time of the day the shooting took place?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: It was around five to six o'clock in the evening.

CHAIRPERSON: Between five and six o'clock.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes, from half past five to six.

CHAIRPERSON: Half past five to six, yes, and we know that's on the 12th of February, well we're in February now, the sun in this part of the world goes down around about sevenish, it starts getting dark.  But of course it was overcast, there was cloud.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Chair, just, maybe just one further point.  Mr Dastile, just getting around to if I may refer the Committee to page 103 of the judgment.  Mr Dastile and I would like to quote, this is starting from line 12.  This is now the Judge relating to the attitude of the people, this is now the ANC group, and
"...according to the testimony of a witness Mr Sindisile Dastile, many of them armed themselves with kerries and seemed to be preparing for violence."
Would you agree with that?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: I did mention earlier on that when we met for the first time at Moloesi's they already had these weapons.  We went to the office and informed the people that we had spoken to Sithole, they should leave their weapons there.  That's what they did.

MR CLAASSEN: Sorry Mr Dastile you say they should leave their weapons there.  Was this now at Moloesi's shebeen.

MR LAX: This was when they moved from the office, that was his testimony yesterday, that they tried to get people to leave their weapons behind.  He said so yesterday in his evidence-in-chief.

MR CLAASSEN: Thank you Mr Lax.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry Mr Dastile, were any ANC people armed with guns, or firearms?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: No.  Not a single one.  Not even at Moloesi's place.