Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-15

MR RAUTENBACH: But before - can we just get the chronology right here.  Before you made your statement you asked him: "Why must, why are you doing, why do you want a statement from me?" and he said to you: "Well he is a suspect", and it was only after informing you that he was a suspect that you made a statement, correct?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Well I think - if I'm not mistaken, when Detective Beyleveld came he didn't put it to me that my brother was the only suspect, but yes, he did, but he explained that they had to cover all avenues.  It was only at the time when, in the January when Detective Steyn and Beyleveld came down together, that was when I was informed my brother was a, was definitely a suspect and he was definitely the only suspect.  When Detective Beyleveld came he just basically explained to me that they needed to cover all areas and that yes, as per normal my brother would be ...(intervention)

MR RAUTENBACH: Are you trying ...(intervention)

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: ... it wasn't a big issue when Detective Beyleveld came down.

MR RAUTENBACH: Mrs White, let's just get clear to the first point, the taking of the statement by Beyleveld.  You asked him is he a suspect and he confirmed to you that he was a suspect, but that they are also looking at other avenues.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes, yes.

MR RAUTENBACH: Now my first question is, when in December he came and approached you about this statement, the mention, the fact that he mentioned to you your brother is a suspect - we know he said we are looking at other avenues, that statement must have been, if I listened to your evidence and what you believed and how you were impressed by his acting, must have been a shock to your system to hear that he's in fact, in fact he's a suspect, he's a suspect, they were looking at other avenues.  That must have been a shock, am I correct?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: A very much was a shock to me.

MR RAUTENBACH: And at that stage you also believed that he's innocent.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Very much so, yes.

MR RAUTENBACH: And you were obviously very concerned about, not only about an investigation against him and the possible consequences of such an investigation, but also about his immediate future and his career if he's a suspect, correct?
...(end of side B of tape)

MR RAUTENBACH: ... you were very concerned?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes, I was very concerned.

MR RAUTENBACH: At the same time you had this - at the same time you realised that you had to co-operate with the police investigation, correct? - you would have had no choice.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes, that's correct.

MR RAUTENBACH: And in fact if possible you would have been able to assist as far as possible so that his name could be cleared, correct?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Well yes, but you see you don't understand how the first statement happened.  It wasn't a case of they came down and Detective Beyleveld said to me; we now want a full statement from you because your brother is now a suspect in this case, give us the whole string of events, he arrived where I was working, he said to me: "We are doing some investigations in Natal and all we want from you is what happened on that Saturday morning".  This wasn't a whole big issue.  The only time it became an issue was when Detective Steyn and Detective Beyleveld came down in the January.  That statement and that little issue on that time when Detective Beyleveld came down, was purely an issue which I thought was wonderful that it was happening because it was covering the fact that I had fetched my brother, that my brother definitely was down in Natal.  That's what the whole thing was about, to establish whether my brother was in actual fact down in Natal.  That's all that was about that very first time.

MR RAUTENBACH: To get back to the point, but before I get back to the point I was busy with, right in the beginning when you heard about the burglary, what did you think at that point in time, what was your response, did you have any ...(intervention)

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Sorry, which burglary?

MR RAUTENBACH: The so-called burglary that was staged.  Did you ever ...(intervention)

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: At my house?

MR RAUTENBACH: No, at the house of, at the murder scene, the scene or the murder.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Oh.  Yes?

MR RAUTENBACH: Did you ever entertain the thought that - I see it's somewhere, you said somewhere in a statement, did you ever at that stage have in mind, well thought that it was ordinary burglars who were responsible for the murder?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes, I suppose at the beginning we did think that.

MR RAUTENBACH: Mm.  No at this stage, when he became a suspect, at that stage you already, your thoughts were it was the Security Police, is that correct?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Sorry at which stage?

MR RAUTENBACH: At the stage when he took, when Beyleveld took your statement, this is December, the December meeting, not even the January meeting.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Well as I said to you previously, I can't tell you, and the chain of events that made me start thinking those things.  But yes, it was a chain of events and especially at the time, well yes, by the time Detective Beyleveld came down, but definitely by the time Detective Steyn and Beyleveld came down in the January and I realised that they were being quite serious about this, yes I did start think that.

MR RAUTENBACH: Now you told this forum that there were certain things that made you think that it may be the Security Police, what were those things?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: It was the fact that they were at the scene, or they got to know about the murder earlier, it was the fact that they collected my brother at the airport, my brother went off with them, his colleagues had come up to Johannesburg before him ...(intervention)

MR RAUTENBACH: Yes, you mentioned those, are there any other factors that made you think so?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Well I don't - ja, I suppose there must be.  If we go along, ask me ...(intervention)

MR RAUTENBACH: Mrs White, let's just get to this, what about this explosive, if I can refer to it as that, telephone conversation that you had with Janine, the deceased ...(intervention)

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: Yes.

MR RAUTENBACH: ... the day before she was, or a couple of days before she was murdered, what about that discussion where she said: "I'm going to sink the Security Branch", a couple of days later she's murdered.  That must have impacted on your mind, or am I wrong?

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: No, you're a little bit wrong in that way, but I need to give you a bit of background on that for you to understand ...(intervention)

MR RAUTENBACH: Well try and explain it.

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: ... why it didn't impact on me that much.  It's not the first time a conversation was had with Janine like that, there had been prior conversations.  Over the years there had been prior conversations.  So when Janine got upset and threatened things, it was sort of a case you put to one side and you don't take it seriously.  I wasn't the only person Janine used to phone and make threats to and get excited with and, she was an excitable person.  When she was angry, when things weren't going right with her and my brother she would come up with things, she'd phone family, she'd phone friends.  So when this happened and it was said to me, I didn't place that much importance on it, I thought once again Janine was just making idle threats.  I didn't take it that it was going to be that important and that she would be murdered because of the conversation, or about the conversation that I'd had with her.

MR RAUTENBACH: You gave me a very longwinded answer, Mrs White ...(intervention)

COLLEEN JUDY WHITE: But you need to understand that.