Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-06

ALBERT AMANDLA NANGALEMBE: Let me just correct here.  The fact that Ketisi was there I know that at the time he was not there because during that week he was arrested.  It was these other boys who used to associate with Ketisi.  So what I can explain is when we went back with the riot squad for the
HRV/312 second/...
18
second time the car was not there anymore because it was following me to the police station.  I had to phone the police so that they may come.  If the police had come same time we could have got them, they could have arrested the person who had abducted my brother.  That they had guns, how did the police know that they had guns?  Why didn't the police move from the police station and go to investigate?  What sort of a police station that didn't have guns?

DR RANDERA: Sorry Amandla maybe you are moving too fast for me but can I just get you to repeat what you've just said.  On the day that your brother was abducted and you went to the police station, did I hear you say that Ketisi was not there, he had been arrested?

ALBERT AMANDLA NANGALEMBE: Yes that is correct.  When Chris was abducted at Zone 12 the people I have mentioned were Hunter, Zanzi as well as Temba.  And when the people saw those people these names were mentioned, three people, but Ketisi was not mentioned.  But because the car drove into Ketisi's house that is probably why Ketisi was involved or thought to have been involved.

DR RANDERA: Okay.  Then can I also just - for everybody's sake and for clarification we heard Ketisi's mother saying this morning that at the time of the massacre at your house Ketisi was in Boksburg Hospital, would you agree with that?

ALBERT AMANDLA NANGALEMBE: Yes I can agree with that it is quite correct.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.  I think it's very important that we get these facts right because as we heard this morning people were very sceptical as if they were disbelieving of what the lady was saying, so I am glad you have clarified that issue.  I want to come back to this question of first
HRV/312 of/...
19
of all the involvement of the, we keep saying the Inkatha Freedom Party were involved, and at the same time we hear you say that this group was a gangster element within the community, can we just get some clarification here in terms of the involvement of the political movement, the Inkatha Freedom Party.

ALBERT AMANDLA NANGALEMBE: I think I have explained that when there was a rally at Zone 7 the general of the IFP, I don't know whether it's Transvaal General Secretary of the IFP but it was Beulah Gubeka. Beulah Gubeka was Temba's mother and Temba is one of Ketisi's group.  So what happened is that when Chris was trying to solve the argument it had actually transpired that they had crossed the border and they had joined the IFP and their intention was to harass the community, maybe namely the ANC, PAC or the ANC Youth League, but I cannot hide that, that's why I am disclosing it now, that I met Beulah at Vanderbijl Court and I asked her and she told me personally.

DR RANDERA: But can I again just clarify, I mean this gangster element seemed to be harassing the community already, am I right in saying that, even before this links took place with Mr Gubeka?

ALBERT AMANDLA NANGALEMBE: I am lucky because I am staying in Zone 7, I grew up there.  These were not gangsters but they used to steal cars and they used to steal Ford, they only started troubling the community when they had joined the IFP because now they were having guns, they were armed and they could shoot and kill people.  Ketisi was attending school at Sogwasi if I remember well.  I don't remember Ketisi harassing people.
(Tape Part 1 ends.....)
HRV/312

DR RANDERA: /...
20

DR RANDERA: I think the lady is going to be fine.  If we can continue, the Red Cross are in charge and they are handling the situation.  You were talking about the IFP and that is where we stopped you.  Can you just finish that part of things.

ALBERT AMANDLA NANGALEMBE: What I was explaining was that maybe the community did not really look at this thing.  The first thing that I've just explained is that they were stealing cars and specialising in Ford.  They were just a group specialising in Ford.  That they were harassing people before then I don't have any recollection.  Maybe before then it happened but harassing the community at large I really cannot testify on that.  When they emerged it was when they were members of the IFP.  Let me just remind you that there were certain days where they wearing IFP T-shirts and they were driving these Fords.  It was on a Sunday afternoon, it was a sunny day, that is when they shot Zwakala, that is the day on which they shot Zwakala.  They were wearing IFP T-shirts to show us that they were real fully-fledged IFP members.  They shot an innocent woman just next to the shops on that particular day.  When Zwakala came to intervene at that time.  They were just shooting at random. It is also common knowledge that they were shooting at random.  Now the comrades tried to intervene but the people who rendered Zone 7 ungovernable were these members of the IFP.  Before then they used to drive these cars.  But at the time that Chris saw Ketisi forcing acid down a certain woman's throat that's when we started realising that they had actually joined the IFP.  If I do not explain it to this Commission I would have made a grave mistake because it is true that at that time they had joined the IFP.  It is
HRV/312 correct/...
21
correct that Ketisi at that time was not known because he looked just like any ordinary person.  I still asked myself as to when he learnt to shoot but they were using him and he used to go with them and they used to shoot people.  This is one of the incidents Ketisi was involved in, because Ketisi's car was known.  Whenever this Ford approached everybody used to run and the street used to be clean.  I want to put this clearly that if Ketisi was not known as a member of the IFP or that there was something happening when I went to report about Chris' matter why did the police say they were not going to Ketisi's place?  How did they know him?  He was already infamous at that time because even the police knew him at that time and even on the 2nd of January that very same week something happened and at this particular time Ketisi's place was already notorious because something was known to the community and the community used to report to the police as to what was happening at Ketisi's place.  I hope I have shed some light as to what was happening.

DR RANDERA: Coming to my last question now Amandla and it's related to what you were just saying which is the police involvement, we heard this morning that Ketisi and some of his gang members were seen in later times with the police and the army and you've mentioned a few instances where you think the police may have been involved.  Can you shed some light on that?  Did you see these instances taking place?