Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman may I come in here? I am quite by surprise you and my client Col Potgieter is also involved in this incident.  I am taken totally by surprise because all the documents on which the interrogation took place this morning the affidavit of Mr Du Toit that was taken, the amnesty application of Chappies Klopper, of whom my attorney is representing - my attorney is representing Chappies Klopper - was not given to us.  We don't even know what it is about.  I haven't got a copy of it.  I haven't ever seen it.  And obviously it relates to my client and I would like to see it.  So under these circumstances, Mr Chairman, I am going to want to ask questions to this witness and I am going to ask for an adjournment if it would please you, for a few minutes in any event to look at that so I am just raising that for you to take into account now.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally could you ascertain for us to whom was the document given.  It was obviously given to Mr Kemp, it was obviously given to Mr Hugo.  Did all the lawyers receive this?   Mr Richards nods his head.

MR VALLY: Mr Chair I have been advised that in the yellow file which was given to all the legal representatives yesterday - apparently everyone has a yellow file except Mr Du Plessis for some reason.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, I didn't even see a yellow file being handed out and for some reason or another I didn't get Chris van Vuuren's transcript of the evidence and I had to ask for it yesterday.  So I never received the yellow file.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, would you be a little more careful please when you use the mike.  I have asked you before.  I think that we must be very careful, all of us, including people on this panel, to remain calm.  There is no reason for us to get excitable here.  Now that includes me.
 But I apologise that you did not receive the document but I think that you now about to receive the document.  It looks as though we are going to be a little time with this witness but you will have an opportunity during tea to study the document and of course if you have questions to put to this witness on behalf of your client you will have the opportunity to do that.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I want to place on record that my reaction did not indicate that I am angry or that I am accusing anybody.  I was just taken by surprise and I obviously didn't know how it came about and when the documents were distributed.  So I am not accusing anybody and I am not unhappy with the situation.  I will be able to deal with this in two minutes.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Kemp.

MR KEMP: Mr Chairman I would just like to place on record that although we did receive the documents the names having been deleted it wasn't possible from the papers to deduct who was implicated there.  The matter was raised with the witness but because of no names - we would ask that in future if a witness is going to be implicated the Commission at least inform us as legal representatives that such a name does appear and that it is one of the deleted items.  It placed us at a huge disadvantage.   Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I just want to confirm - Mr Hugo please help me here.  You mentioned that this whole matter is on public record, that this took place.  This is not new information and I think insofar as that is so that I will allow you to continue to ask the questions that you are asking and I would ask the witness to answer please.

MR HUGO: Mr Du Toit you now know which document we are discussing do you?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Yes.

MR HUGO: Let me read to you - for safety sake I will not mention the names of persons who are not represented.  I read to you it is the oath statement of Mr Klopper which says
"After De Kock and persons had arrived there, Mabotha was taken to a farm..."
- which you say you don't know of  -
"... which was from time to time used by the security branch of Marble Hall.  At this farm Mabotha was interrogated and seriously assaulted. He was hit, kicked and tubed.  He was also hung upside down.  Most of the people present participated in the assault.  I myself also participated".
This is Mr Klopper.  
"Members of the Marble Hall security branch were also present.  I cannot remember the names of these people.  Members of Soweto security were Capt Du Toit ..."
And then I am first leaving out the other names because they aren't represented here.  
"From Vlakplaas were present Mr De Kock ..."
And another person who is not represented here today.  What do you say of this version?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I deny it, Mr Chair.

MR HUGO: So Mr Klopper is also talking a lot of nonsense?  Can I ask you about another aspect?   You now arrest - you personally - Mr Mabotha.  You know that he is an Askari.  You know that Col De Kock is his commander, as you have testified.  You get in his jacket pocket very incriminating documentation which you yourself agreed is very important.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Now Col De Kock is called from Pretoria.  You are present.  You deny that you participated in the assault but I assume that you will concede that you spoke to De Kock.
:  If he were there I would have spoken to him, yes.

MR HUGO: How do you mean if he was there?   You know whether you spoke to him or not.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I testified that I couldn't even remember whether he had come.

MR HUGO: But you don't remember anything of this incident.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: It is very long ago, Mr Chair.  I don't have notes on the events.

MR HUGO: Let's accept Mr De Kock was there and you spoke to him.  Why didn't you give the commander of Vlakplaas this very incriminating evidence that you found in the pocket of his Askari?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Mr Chair I don't remember what happened to the documents.  I would probably have given it to Col Grobbelaar.  I don't know what he did with it.

MR HUGO: It appears to me as if the Soweto security branch had another agenda with this whole operation and that they wanted to keep as many as possible of other people away from it.  Well why didn't you tell De Kock that his Askari was involved in the Stompie Seipei case or had information about it?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I believe it was said to him.

MR HUGO: Did you tell him?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I don't remember, Mr Chair.

MR HUGO: I put it to you that you did not say it to him and my client will testify likewise.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I accept if you say so that it is true.  But I don't know that I told him.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hugo.  Please give your name for the record.

MR MAVUNDHLA: For the record Mr Chairman I am S T Mavundhla for the Johannes Mabotha family.

CHAIRPERSON: Please continue.

MR MAVUNDHLA: Mr Du Toit you said the reasons for arresting Mr Mabotha was because he had deserted Vlakplaas.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: That is correct.

MR MAVUNDHLA: When you arrested him later on that later on you handed him over to Col De Kock.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: That is where I am not sure what happened, Mr Chair.

MR MAVUNDHLA: Please clarify this point.  Were there any instructions that after the arrest Mr Mabotha had to be handed over to Col De Kock?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Mr Chair, I really can't remember what  happened there but it is clear, isn't it, that we took him back to Soweto.

MR MAVUNDHLA: You also mentioned something like the unlawful activities in which Mr Mabotha was involved in.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I said there was a suspicion but we didn't have evidence and I was not involved.

MR MAVUNDHLA: You did not have evidence but however you continued with your activities whereas you had not sufficient evidence that he was involved in these unlawful activities that you mentioned.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: That is true.  He was arrested because he deserted and not so much because we suspected that he was involved in anything else.