Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-11

H J P BOTHA: Yes, he screamed and shouted.  We gagged him so that he could not make any noise.

MR VISSER: Very well.

H J P BOTHA: On the way we stopped near the border post so that the driver, who was the informer, could climb out and stay in Swaziland.  I took over the driving of the kombi while Wasserman remained with Cele and we drove up to the border.
	At some point we left the usual road and followed a dirt road, according to which we crossed the border into South Africa illegally after the fence had been pressed down to ground.

MR VISSER: Please pause there.  Wasserman will tell the Committee that he hit Cele a few times with the first in order to bring him under control.  Did you see that?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, that was in the process of controlling him and making sure that he was quiet.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, if I may interrupt.  Would you perhaps give an indication whether you would take the tea adjournment at quarter to eleven or at 11 o'clock.  I know some of the judges prefer to take it at quarter to eleven and others at 11 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now there's no hard and fast rule about that.  I was under the impression we'd finish.  If he hasn't very much more to say on this aspect of the matter, we'll adjourn at 11 o'clock if you don't mind.

MR VISSER: Yes, he's virtually through, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you.
	Now after you had left Swaziland, where did you go then?

H J P BOTHA: We went back to the house belonging to Forestry in Amsterdam, where Vorster and I began to speak to Cele that night under the leadership of Taylor.  This whole exercise was aimed at winning his co-operation as an informer.  And the other reason why I was there was to correlate and confirm any information as correct, should he give any information.

MR VISSER: Was there a chief interrogator of Mr Cele?

H J P BOTHA: No, the interrogation was jointly undertaken by me, Taylor and Vorster.

MR VISSER: So it is actually incorrect when you say that Cele was interrogated by Taylor, he was actually interrogated by you, Taylor and Vorster?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: What was his attitude?

H J P BOTHA: Initially Cele responded to that which was known to us, because we had to put leading questions and consequently he would be able to respond to what we wanted to know.  But I was under the impression that after he had crossed the border he would very willingly offer his services to work as an informer.
	Now during the interrogation I received the impression that he was not very favourably inclined to do so and upon occasion it was said 'This guy isn't going to work with us'.

MR VISSER: Did it become clear to you the evening after the abduction there at Amsterdam already?

H J P BOTHA: Yes, one would have a feeling that when one was involved in such a seizure action and attempting to replace him into a structure, there would be feeling whether it was going to work or not.  Sometimes there would just be an immediate summation of the person's attitude, sometimes one's impression would only be garnered after a few weeks of dealing with the subject.

MR VISSER: The fact is that he was abducted and he wasn't willing to co-operate, so what would the repercussions of that have been?

H J P BOTHA: We had to take him back from Amsterdam to Pietermaritzburg or to a safe place where we could work with him further.  Now he knew that Sikhakane was instrumental in his abduction, that he had in fact lured him to the point of abduction.  We could not leave him there immediately and say go back to Swaziland ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Are you referring to Cele?

H J P BOTHA: Yes.

MR VISSER: What would he then do?

H J P BOTHA: He would immediately convey the identity of Neville as an informer to the ANC, and that is why it was decided to take him to Pietermaritzburg.  And the following day we then indeed transported him to Pietermaritzburg and all the members and their vehicles returned to Pietermaritzburg with the exception of Verwey and Labuschagne, who had already returned to Middelburg the previous evening after they had finished their task that we had brought them out for.

MR VISSER: Where was Wasserman?  Did Wasserman return with you to Durban or did he remain on the farm?

H J P BOTHA: No, Wasserman remained on the farm with the rest of the people. I brought the kombi back to Durban in order to return it to Avis, because there was a limited time for which we had hired the vehicle.

MR VISSER: Very well.  And then in paragraph 11 you say that the following day you heard that Cele had been eliminated.  Who told you this?

H J P BOTHA: I'm of the opinion that it was Col Taylor who told me this, because I made enquiries regarding Cele to determine whether or not there had been any progress.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And the reason was that he had not wanted to co-operate as an informer.

H J P BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You then say in paragraph 12, that for obvious reasons you did not make the matter known and you made yourself guilty of defeating the ends of justice.  The evidence will then be placed here before the Committee, the evidence of Vorster and Wasserman regarding what exactly took place on the farm after you had departed from there.  Perhaps I can just ask you the following ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Where was this elimination of Cele, was that in Pietermaritzburg or was it still while he was still on the farm?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, the evidence will be that it is a farm in the Elandskop area, in the district of Pietermaritzburg.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I see.

MR VISSER: It was used as a safehouse - to use that expression, and that as the same farm on which Ndwandwe as well as Tekere were also assassinated.  Cele of course also, but you'll obtain more detail from the other witnesses later on.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand, yes.

MR VISSER: Perhaps I could just ask you this.  On that evening when you came out with Cele from Swaziland and he didn't want to co-operate and you then foresaw that he could possibly be eliminated.

H J P BOTHA: It wasn't specifically discussed, but I foresaw that, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And the one reason was because if you had released him he would be able to expose the identity of the informer, which then would be the end of the informer.  Was there any other reason that emerged within you indicating why nothing else could be done with him other than elimination?

H J P BOTHA: What also became known to me after my first meeting with the Swaziland informer, is that he did not operate alone in Swaziland, but that there was an entire family network within Swaziland, because he lived there and that it was not only his own life but the lives of his family which would be jeopardised.

MR VISSER: And then from paragraph 13 onwards, would you just conclude.

H J P BOTHA: I cannot recall who said this to me, how he was eliminated and who precisely had eliminated him.  It wasn't necessary because I didn't ask for those details.

MR VISSER: And what do you say about your conduct in the abduction as well as you emission to make the matter known?

H J P BOTHA: Chairperson, I did this.  It was aimed at protecting the State and the National Party, as well as maintaining the government.  I was not benefited in any way or rewarded for the action.  I did not draw any personal advantage from this.  I did this because I believe it was right for the country and it was part of my duties.  It was necessary that if the decision was taken to eliminate Cele, this would be the right decision.

MR VISSER: Would you please turn to page 1 of Exhibit D.  Your application involves an abduction or illegal arrest.  That would be the chief offence, abduction or illegal arrest of Dion
Cele, the transgression of border control regulations when you brought him out.

H J P BOTHA: That is correct.