Human Rights Violation Hearings — George — 1996-06-18

MARY BURTON: Sophia Lucas to come to the platform - press the little grey button.  It's all right Ms Lucas you can take your time and just calm yourself -   [indistinct]  or do you want to speak in English?   Are you able to hear the translation - thank you.
 The first thing I have to ask you is if you are willing to swear the oath - please stand then.
SOPHIA PAMELA LUCAS Duly sworn states

MARY BURTON: Thank you - you can sit down, thank you very much.  Ms Lucas you are the aunt of Michael Lucas of whom we have been speaking and you - he lived with you so you were like his mother.  Would you like to tell us about your experience of the time that he was sentenced and tried.

MS LUCAS: Firstly I would like to say I was working - after he was being caught, I was going up  and down to Cape Town during the  court case, that was his mother.  He went up to Cape Town three times to the courts.
 Most of the time during the struggle time I was a worker, by the time he was sentenced, the court cases were - that was his mother, was moving up and down.  I just can remember when was Mike being sentenced, but I can - I can remember that it was March, policeman came to me at work - they come and told me that Mike was being sentenced to life - he was going to be hanged on Friday.
 We didn't know whether Mike had committed the crime, they said Mike has shot a policeman.  Police said they will take me to Fort Beaufort and then from there I  will take a train to Pretoria and  [indistinct]  they came and tell me that on Wednesday, when I arrived hom, I told my sister that situation.  Our church priest, Father Bailey came as soon as he could, he came to  give condolences and give us support, he said he will support us with finance and we will go to Pretoria.   We were taken to Pretoria by Father Bailey.
 The most painful part of this situation my - was Mike the only first criminal that his case could just take only one month and be hanged during that month?  That was the only question and it's still the only question in our minds.

MARY BURTON: Thank you Ms Lucas - your Grace perhaps you would allow me to tell Ms Lucas that after we had received her statement, we did speak to the advocate who represented Michael Lucas and brought a plea for clemency after he had been sentenced to death.  And he did tell us that although it was in fact a very short time between the  time that Michael Lucas was sentenced, and executed that all the procedures, the legal procedures were properly followed.
 That it was a time when those decisions were being taken quickly and the case was processed quickly.  But she should know that - that legally the procedures were properly followed.
 Michael was charged together with two others in this case - the other two people were Jerome Myo and Eric Phote and they both escaped having the death penalty passed on them.  Partly because of the evidence which Michael Lucas gave.  The Court did not believe all of his evidence, but he was able to avoid the other two receiving the death sentence.  And we can't know that, but maybe that was part of his objective in the evidence that he did give.  And perhaps afterwards I could take a little more to Ms Lucas about what advocate Michael  Donen told me about this case.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you - that's all - any questions yes Joyce Seroke.

MS SEROKE: Mamma Lucas - how old was Michael?

MS LUCAS: He was born in 1964.

MS SEROKE: And when he was hanged - he was - how old was he?

MS LUCAS: He was 23.

MS SEROKE: Are you sure  because according to this documents some test were even made to check whether he was under 18.

MS LUCAS: Michael was born in 1964.

CHAIRPERSON: Mary Burton?

MARY BURTON: In response to the questions about his age, the lawyers who were representing him and who were trying to do their best for him, believed that he was under age and they used that as the argument in mitigation of sentence.  But in fact it was demonstrated that he was over aged and that was one reason that the appeal was refused and he was in fact executed.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Ramashala.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Chairperson I wanted to ask Ms Lucas what she would like the Commission to do for her.

MS LUCAS: Mostly Mike left a young child who is in Sub A.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: [indistinct] about who is raising the child and how the child is doing right now.

MS LUCAS: She had been  - the child had been with the grand mother and then thereafter was taken by the mothers family, the child's mother's family.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Ms Lucas you stated that the police kept coming to your house to look for Michael and that when they got to the house, they were very rude.  Could you tell us a little bit what they did and how they spoke to you and what you went through with them as they were looking for Michael.

MS LUCAS: The police - when they - when they police came to look for Mike, they would come in a convoy which would fill the whole of Bhongolethu, when they entered - when Captain Marx entered, you must huddle into any corner, because you couldn't  - the police didn't even want you to look at them, your house would be turned upside down and they would leave no stone unturned and then you would have to pick up the pieces afterwards.
 They way Marx talked I wouldn't come anywhere near  because sometimes he would say, staan soontoe, stand this way,  I remember the last time when Mike was taken they woke me up whilst I was still in bed.  They  were rushing me around they were turning everything upside down in the house.  They didn't respect any place, you couldn't even ask what they were looking for, you just have to look at them all the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Mary - Mary Burton.

MARY BURTON: Your Grace if you will allow me,  [indistinct] allow me I think perhaps it would be helpful to us although we not in any position to make judgements on their findings but to record that the person who was killed in the incident in which Michael Lucas was charged, was a person who could also turn out to be a victim in terms of our enquiries.  He was a bus inspector who was protecting the buses in a time of a bus boycott in the area and he - he either had links with or had worked for the Security Police in the area.
 We have not received a statement from - from his family, but is it something that we will need to pursue, and I wondered whether you would allow me to read briefly from advocate Donen's letter to the State President, asking for clemency on behalf of Michael Lucas, because I think it helps to establish the context.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do yes.