Amnesty Hearings — Richards Bay — 1998-04-23

MR STEWART: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Luthuli you have heard what has been said. What we are not asking you for is the details and I will attempt to confine your evidence in the following respect. You have explained those structures and so on. Will you answer this question? Were you involved in the hierarchy of the command structure of this and other hit squads in KwaZulu Natal?

DALUTXOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: And in general terms were you aware of the activities that this hit squad was involved in?

DALUTXOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: And in general terms were their activities within the intention of why they were formed and trained and so on?

DALUTXOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is correct.

MR STEWART: So do you accept responsibility for their activity?

DALUTXOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR STEWART: Will you explain to the committee and to the community whether and to what extent you accept responsibility and apologize for the violence and destruction in the local community?

DALUTXOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would like to say to the Esikoweni community that these witnesses have already agreed that they were the ones killing people at Esikoweni, I knew about that. And Ulundi also knew about this. I was not the only one who knew about this. And therefore to the Esikoweni community I want to assure you that even the feelings that you do not know yet I will try by all means so that, that can be explained as well. That should be investigated because these people were not the only ones involved in the hit squads at Esikoweni. There were others who were also involved like BSI, they had their own hit squad. And myself as their commander used to sit down and perhaps meet them and they would tell me what they were doing. Not these ones. And in all things that still need clarity, clarity is forthcoming. I can assure you and I would therefore appeal to you and explain everything that they did. Please forgive me because I am indeed the one who gave them orders? They are the ones who reported back to me. And therefore there is nothing that they did on their own. I ask for your forgiveness.

MR STEWART: Thank you Mr Chairperson for indulging us.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Stewart. Mr Wills do you have any questions?

MR WILLS: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewit?

MR HEWIT: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lasich?

MR LASICH: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Therefore no re-examination Mr Moloi?

MR MOLOI: I have none thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motata?

MR MOTATA: I have got no questions Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Khampepe?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Luthuli. You may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman. May I so leave to call Nonhlanhla Zulu please?

NONHLANHLA TANDAZILE ZULU: (sworn states)

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman before I proceed leading this witness may I place on record the fact that when, there was a meeting yesterday and when I consulted with my clients, Mrs Tarliwe and Mrs Nxumalo were not present. Especially towards the end of the meeting. And I have not been able to see them today. If there is any position which they take which differs from what is going to be testified on by the witness we will make those submissions later to the commission. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngubane.

MR NGUBANE: Miss Zulu is it correct that you are one of the victims?

NONHLANHLA TANDAZILE ZULU: (No translation)

MR NGUBANE: Is it correct that you are one of the victims?

NONHLANHLA TANDAZILE ZULU: Yes that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Were you present yesterday at a meeting between the applicants and the victims that took place between half past two and five p.m. yesterday?

NONHLANHLA TANDAZILE ZULU: Yes that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And is it correct that the intention of that meeting or the objective of that meeting was to afford the victims to interact directly with the applicants?

NONHLANHLA TANDAZILE ZULU: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Is it ever correct that although the main applicants were Mbambo, Mkhize, Dlamini, Khumalo, Mr Luthuli was also present?

NONHLANHLA TANDAZILE ZULU: Yes they were all present.

MR NGUBANE: And the other two gentlemen who did not testify were also present?

NONHLANHLA TANDAZILE ZULU: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Is it correct further that at the end of the meeting you were mandated by the victims to speak on their behalf?

NONHLANHLA TANDAZILE ZULU: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Are you therefore speaking there in the dual capacity, that is in your personal capacity as a victim and in the capacity as the representative of all the victims?

NONHLANHLA TANDAZILE ZULU: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: The victims that were here yesterday, is it correct that they included not only the victims who were resident at Esikoweni but also the victims who were of the surrounding areas, especially Mandeni?

NONHLANHLA TANDAZILE ZULU: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Can you tell the members of the committee the message which you were given to deliver to the committee?

NONHLANHLA TANDAZILE ZULU: Thank you. Chairperson and the entire committee and the community at large it is a pleasure for me to be granted this opportunity to express our opinion about the meeting that we had yesterday afternoon. Myself as a victim (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Miss Zulu sorry to interrupt I see some people are indicating if you could please speak a little bit louder?

NONHLANHLA TANDAZILE ZULU: Myself as a victim and all other fellow victims at Esikoweni and Mandeni and other areas surrounding areas, during our meeting yesterday we had an opportunity to ask those who are asking for amnesty questions and ask them clarity on things that were not clear to us. We are grateful that clarity was given but I would first of all like to explain that in the meeting we were not complete. Some people were not here, that is the victims. In the meeting they were to receive clarifications and explanations. We then discussed and took a decision that we were satisfied with the explanations that they had supplied us. We believe that they had told us the truth because activities that were performed by people who are no longer here but on their orders. This they were able to explain to us and they indeed gave us an explanation that they were ordered by those people. We then agreed that we accept their request for forgiveness. In that way we do not oppose the decision that will be made by this committee as befitting these applicants. If the committee decides that on their testimony they should be granted amnesty, we do not oppose this. But the victims also expressed that all concerned individuals who indeed planned these activities but have not sought amnesty and those who were directly implicated in the terrorising of the community and who have not sought amnesty we request that they be indeed summoned to a forum where they can explain their activities. We as the victims in Esikoweni and surrounding areas cannot rest until we see that justice takes its due course regarding those implicated persons. We will like to see all of them brought to justice and pay for their activities. I thank you.

MR NGUBANE: Ms Zulu is it correct that a summary of your message is to the fact that the victims do forgive the applicants?

NONHLANHLA TANDAZILE ZULU: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And is it also further correct that the victims were satisfied that there was a full disclosure as humanly as possible of all the horrific acts by the applicants?

NONHLANHLA TANDAZILE ZULU: Yes that is correct.