Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-13

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I interpose Mr Stewart.  You have referred us to page 10 which is incident 3.  I note that Mr Dlamini has referred to the time when Mr Betuli came to join them, and he said that at that time Mr Nwabe's house was under attack, and it appears from his viva voce evidence that it may not necessarily have been the right situation.  I just wanted that to be clarified.

MR STEWART: Thank you Ms Committee Member, I'll see to clarify that.
	Mr Dlamini, when you speak of the bad situation in that area, and you see it was beyond your powers, are you referring to the same incident where Mr Nwabe's house had been under attack?

MR DLAMINI: Will you please repeat your question?

MR STEWART: In the incident that you're referring to in your evidence, that you're recalling about the time that Mudla Induna and the others came there, had  it been the case that Nwabe's house was under attack?

MR DLAMINI: As I am saying Sir, that I myself was also attacked at the Nwabe's place.  ANC came and shot and then ran away.  They shot and they ran away.  That's then when I realised that there's a lot of people here, and thereafter, that's when I phoned Mudla Induna, who thereafter came.

MR STEWART: In the attack as you've described it, that Mudla Induna and the others launched in that area, was that part of repelling the attack against Nwabe's house, or was it a separate attack?  In other words, was it part of defending that Nwabe home?

MR DLAMINI: As I've indicated, IFP - if I'm not mistaken, a lot of people had run away.  It was about few houses, very few.  Then ANC was in large numbers in that area.  All of them used to pass by there on their way to bury, the graveyards were nearby- the cemetery was nearby.  On their way they were firing gunshots, and as they were firing or as they passed by to the cemetery, they fired their guns.  And thereafter, and then I phoned Mudla Induna and said these people are in large numbers and it's beyond my powers.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Stewart I'm sorry be interfering with Mr Dlamini, I really just wanted him to confine his explanation to whether at the time when Mudla Induna arrived, was Mr Nwabe's house being attacked, because that's how it has been phrased in his application.  If you check, I think it's the first paragraph, right in the middle, Mr Dlamini says
"At the time of their arrival ...", and that's Mr Betuli's arrival, "... Nwabe's house was being attacked by the ANC.  They joined the attack, and together we shot back at the attackers."
I just wanted clarification only in respect of that small issue.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini you've heard the question.  Perhaps you can try and answer it.

MR DLAMINI: Yes indeed.  The Nwabe's area was being attacked where I was.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Stewart you may proceed.

MR STEWART: I thank you.  If the Committee can bear with me for one minute.  The Committee will find it instructive that this dealt with also by Mr Lethal at page 251, paragraph 15.26, and thereafter, where he explains that on arriving at this home, Trevor Nene and Zwele Dlamini were there and they had found that the UDF had already launched an attack and there were houses burning in the area, and then there was - from there various operations were launched, much along the lines of the viva voce evidence given by Mr Dlamini.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR STEWART: Now Mr Dlamini you say at the top of page 385 that this incident took place between October or November 1987.  Do you remember if that's correct?

MR DLAMINI: Yes it was 1987, but I can't quite remember the month.

MR STEWART: Now after this, is it right, that you remained at the house of Nwabe?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I was there.

MR STEWART: Now in your incident 4 you mention another attack.  Are you familiar with the one that I'm referring to?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I do remember.

MR STEWART: Explain to the Committee what happened in that incident.

MR DLAMINI: In this incident Chair, as I've indicated when I was writing the statement, there are some mistakes that I did, but I will try to explain how this incident occurred.  In this incident IFP youth was also there.  I made a mistake and then I actually mixed up things, I actually included the group that I was with, Mudla Induna and them.  In actual fact this incident was done - let me explain, may I please explain the situation.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini let me assist you to clarify that first.  Are you saying that although it appears here in your affidavit that Mudla Induna and others were involved, you're saying that at that time you were mixing it up and in fact it was IFP youth who were involved, is that what you're explaining to the Committee?

MR DLAMINI: That is what I'm saying.

MR STEWART: It is your duty to explain to the Committee, you don't need to ask permission to do so, so please continue and explain.

MR DLAMINI: There this youth met on its own and attacked this area at Gigi ...(indistinct).  It is the one who was actually throwing petrol bombs in the houses; shooting, because it also had guns.  As I've written, mixing up, Mudla Induna indeed was not there.  I wish to explain that, it is the youth there that did this incident.

MR STEWART: That incident were you still - at that time your responsibility as to be assisting Nwabe, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes it is.

MR STEWART: And did Nwabe know about this incident?

MR DLAMINI: Yes he did.

MR STEWART: Did he know about it at the time or only afterwards?

MR DLAMINI: He knew very well.

MR STEWART: And what was his attitude?

MR DLAMINI: As a person who couldn't even go, he was happy if the boys are paving way for him to actually go onto the road.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you - sorry Mr Stewart, did you play any role in the incident, in the petrol bombing and the shooting in the Gigi area?

MR DLAMINI: No I did not go there.  I was staying in the house at the Nwabe residence.

CHAIRPERSON: And how far away from you was this attack, you know, with the petrol bombs and the shooting by the youths?

MR DLAMINI: I would just estimate and say, if the house could be here where I am and they are attacking, to the Training College.  A distance from where I'm sitting to the Training College.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what, about 2 kilometres.   Is that that big building on the other hill?

MR DLAMINI: Yes that's that Training College, teacher's training college.  I think it's the distance from here to the Training College.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you play any part in the planning of the attack, or did you have anything to do with the attack at all?

MR DLAMINI: No I did not plan anything, they were doing this on their own.  I was there when they were doing it, but I did not contribute.  The petrol bombs that they were preparing, I was there, I did not - there's nothing that I couldn't see while they were planning it, but I did not partake in it, and I did not attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini in the work that you were doing in different areas, were there many attacks of this nature that happened close by to where you were, or that you were part of?

MR DLAMINI: I can't quite get your question.

MR STEWART: In the time that you were doing this kind of work, were there many attacks of this nature, of this kind of conflict in the semi-urban or semi-rural areas?  Many of these attacks near to where you were, or that you were involved in.

MR DLAMINI: Yes there was a lot of fighting there.

MR STEWART: Are you able to estimate at all about how many such attacks you knew about or you witnessed?

MR DLAMINI: Although I cannot be accurate, but there's quite a lot of them who by the youth as they were involved.

MR STEWART: And this was 10 years ago or so, am I right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes indeed.

MR STEWART: And is it possible that you're mixing up by mistake some of these different incidents and attacks?

MR DLAMINI: Yes indeed.