Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-19

MR POTGIETER: Thank you very much Dr Gildenhuys.  I just want to check with my colleagues who might have some questions for you. Advocate Sandi.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Thank you Dr Gildenhuys.  Can I ask you at the time of this tragedy is the Ciskei not a signatory to the National Peace Accord?

DR GILDENHUYS: It was a signatory to the Peace Accord.
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They then withdrew from the Peace Accord because they thought that the local leadership were discriminating against them and at this particular time, to the best of my recollection they have not returned to actively participate in the structures.  So although they were nominally a signatory they withdrew.

MR SANDI: You mean to say that they had already withdrawn as signatories to the Accord at the time of the tragedy?

DR GILDENHUYS: No they had not withdrawn as signatories, they had withdrawn their participation.

MR SANDI: Can you say briefly what obligations were imposed by this Accord on those parties that had signed it especially in regard to the holding of marches and demonstrations?

DR GILDENHUYS: The National Peace Accord was to a large extent a code of conduct for political parties because at that stage in South Africa we did not have a free democratic political tradition, and in terms of the Peace Accord marches as I have said a bit earlier, was a legitimate form of political expression.  The marchers took up the attitude that they've got a right to have a march as long as it's peaceful and as long as conditions which had to be negotiated to ensure safety and logistics are being complied with.

MR SANDI: And in that context the National Peace Secretariat were charged with the task of implementing the terms of that Accord?

DR GILDENHUYS: That is correct.  We had no punitive powers so we couldn't prosecute any person, or signatory or body who did not abide to the terms of the Accord but we could, and did, exercise to the best of our ability a great moral
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persuasion.

MR SANDI: Then it goes without saying that for the National Peace Secretariat to be able to implement those terms of the Accord required a certain measure of cooperation from those who had accepted the Accord, Ciskei being one of them?

DR GILDENHUYS: No, that is indeed so.  The Ciskeians took up the attitude, as I have said, that the regional Peace Committee for the Ciskei, East London area was biased in favour of the ANC alliance and for that reason they withdrew.  In my view it was not open to any party to withdraw from the Accord after they have signed.

MR SANDI: In your attempts to implement the terms of the Accord did you have any problems with the Ciskei authorities?

DR GILDENHUYS: Yes continuously.  That it did not fall under my direct responsibilities but I have had many talks with the Ciskeian authorities and also with the ANC alliance and also with various Chairpersons in an endeavour to get them back to the negotiating table or to get them to participate in the structures.  Towards the end, that's 1993, 1994 we achieved a very limited kind of de facto cooperation, but they never really returned to full participation.

MR SANDI: Now can we talk about the preparations leading on to the march, how involved was the National Peace Secretariat in the technical logistics of the preparations for the march?

DR GILDENHUYS: We received very good cooperation from the organisers.  We were not concerned that the organisers could not handle the march.  We had experienced that the previous
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march during August, I think it was, was handled very well.  They had a very good system of marshalling and the control of their own people presented no problems.  We knew they could do that.

MR SANDI: Did you know that there was a shortage of razor wire which caused the gap?

DR GILDENHUYS: I didn't hear that, I am sorry.

MR SANDI: Did you know, was the National Peace Secretariat aware that there was a problem of a shortage of razor wire and hence the gap in the fence?

DR GILDENHUYS: I was not aware of the gap in the fence.  I know there was barbed wire at the other side of the stadium.  I drove past the gap but I didn't see it.

MR SANDI: My last question now would be shortly before the members of the Ciskei Defence Force opened fire on the marshals did you hear any shooting coming from the side of the marshals?

DR GILDENHUYS: No the marchers as far as I could see were totally peaceful, but I couldn't see on the other side of the stadium who shot first.  It was out of my line of vision.

MR SANDI: One final, final question, did you see any weapons on the part of the marshals?

DR GILDENHUYS: Nothing more serious than maybe a stick.

MR SANDI: Thank you very much Dr Gildenhuys.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you Advocate Sandi.  Reverend Finca.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you Chair.  Just a few short questions Dr Gildenhuys.  Is it correct that you refused to cooperate with the various inquiries on this matter, the Goldstone Commission and the Pickard Commission?
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DR GILDENHUYS: That I refused to cooperate?  No it's not correct at all.

BONGANI FINCA: It's not correct.  Thank you. Was there, as far as you know, an agreement between the parties on going to the stadium which was then violated, which was negotiated by yourself?

DR GILDENHUYS: Not in respect of the second march.  In respect of the first march there was an agreement which was honoured.  In respect of the second march the permit issued by the magistrate allowed the marchers into the stadium.  It was not part of my negotiations.  I should add that I impressed upon the Ciskei authorities that they ought to allow the marchers into the stadium, but the actual permit was not negotiated by me.

BONGANI FINCA: Last question is in connection with how you left the area of action.  I know that you were yourselves targets when the shooting broke out, how did you actually leave the area of action where the shooting was taking place?

DR GILDENHUYS: The razor wire was lifted up which left a gap underneath the wire.  Mr Hall and myself rolled through that gap and then went into the ranks of the marchers themselves to talk with the ANC leadership.  We walked down the road, it was a few hundred yards.

BONGANI FINCA: Did you gain an impression, sorry Chairperson I said that that was the last question, did you get an impression that allowing those marchers to go and occupy an empty area in Bisho was a threat to life of anybody at that stage?

DR GILDENHUYS: I didn't see any threat to life at all.  As I have said there was a very good atmosphere amongst the
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marchers when it started off and nobody knew the horrible tragedy that would follow, it was a kind of carnival atmosphere.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you Reverend Finca.  Dr Gildenhuys just to complete the picture that Reverend Finca has touched on, did the Attorney General, the then Attorney General of Ciskei Advocate Jurgens, did he contact you in regard to making a statement, or giving any information regarding the incident?

DR GILDENHUYS: He did.

MR POTGIETER: Did you provide him with that statement?

DR GILDENHUYS: I was visited by a policeman, I think it's a Sergeant Walker, I am not certain of his rank, and I gave him a statement.  I think you've got a copy amongst your records.

MR POTGIETER: So this is the one that you made available to the ...(intervention)

DR GILDENHUYS: Yes.

MR POTGIETER: Very good.   Did you in any way ascertain subsequently what actually happened, or were you not able to ascertain what happened, how the shooting started off?

DR GILDENHUYS: I didn't do an independent investigation, I heard a lot of rumours, but I won't be able to say from my own knowledge.