Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: We knew that Bobby was sleeping there and at times he was sleeping at his sister's place or, I'm sorry, his mother's place in Rocklands.

ADV DE JAGER: When you received an instruction to petrol-bomb a house, did you enquire whether there were any people staying in the house on that particular night?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: We didn't make enquiries, we had information.  We knew who was staying there.

ADV DE JAGER: For instance when you -  I may take an example - when you petrol-bombed the missions house, were there any people sleeping in the house?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Which mission house?  You mean at Botshabelo?

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: We didn't know as whether there were people who were sleeping there.

ADV DE JAGER: And suppose there would be a baby in the room and you throwing the petrol bomb into the room?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: We were given instructions that we should go and bomb that place.  If there was a child there or a baby, I don't know how they would account to that but the answer I'm giving is that these people whose houses were bombed - inside the files, their names appeared or the people who stayed in the houses appeared.  In other words those people or the names of people who were staying in the house in terms of the investigations we did, it is in this way.
	If there is a person who wants to work for Government or any other place, in his clearance or her clearance we would clear it in terms of his participation which was not - in the organisation which was not wanted by the security police, we'd buy him not work in a particular job or profession because one member of his house was in the list of organisation which were banned and those which were not banned, in the United Democratic Front etc., because we'd be afraid that he would look for information in the Government building or Government institutions.

CHAIRPERSON: It's got nothing to do ...[inaudible]

ADV DE JAGER: But really, I want to know whether you did foresee that there could be a child sitting in the room and you're throwing a petrol bomb through the window and the child could be killed and the child wouldn't be involved in politics at all?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I would say he would die because we were sent to execute the operation but I tell you that we would hit or attack the whole family.  We would include the whole family in the attack.  If that person was a member of the political organisation, his family would be included in the operation.  That is why when we make investigations we'd go to a Municipality and look at the properties and the names of the family members and their dates of birth and we'd put them in his file or her file.

ADV DE JAGER: But you see, when you attacked Mrs Mandela's house you gave evidence that you knew at that time she wasn't at home, she was in Cape Town.  You didn't attack the house while she was in the house and could be injured.  Now on other occasions, you didn't take that precaution.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I beg leave to say something here.  It was not the intention of ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Mr, could you kindly answer the question, I think my question was clear and if you have something to add after he's answered the question, you could please add it but I'm asking the question to him.

ADV MEMANI: But Mr Chairman, you are putting to him that he made a precaution to ensure that Winnie was not there and that was not the evidence.  She was coincidentally not there.  This is what ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: The evidence was, they were told she was in Johannesburg.

ADV MEMANI: But it was not a precaution taken, that is my objection.

ADV DE JAGER: Well, she wasn't there so she couldn't be injured and in other cases, you don't know whether people were there or not?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I don't know at all as whether they were present or not present in those house when we were given instructions to go and attack those houses.

MR STANDER: Did I understand you correctly that your answer to the last question was, that at the stage when you were bombing the house of the brother of Mr Sebotsa, you knew that Mr Sebotsa was in his parents' house or did I understand  you incorrectly?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It could have happened that he was not present when we went there, he could have been at his mother's place.

MR STANDER: The question was whether you knew he was in his parents' house at the stage when you were bombing it?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, he didn't bomb it did he, he bombed the brother's house.  Wasn't that the evidence?

MR STANDER: This is true but I'm asking this question because I got the impression from his evidence that they knew that Mr Sebotsa was not in his brother's house but in fact in his parents' house.

CHAIRPERSON: My objection was, you said: "did you know he was in his parents' house when you bombed it, implying you bombed his parents' house.  The question should be: "did you know he was in his parents' house when you bombed his brother's house?

MR STANDER: With respect, that's how I put the question.  I didn't quite hear the interpretation but that was my question.  I would put it again just to make it quite clear.
	Mr Motsamai, did you know when Mr Sebotsa's brother's house was bombed,  that he wasn't there but in fact in his parents' house?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I did not know as whether he was present in the house or not.

MR STANDER: Tell me, was the instruction specifically to bomb his brother's house?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, that is true.

MR STANDER: Do you know why it was specifically his brother's house?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I've already explained that when we received the instruction, it was not known as whether he was at his brother - at his home, meaning his parents' in Rocklands or at his brother's house and again his brother also had a file with us.  We were sent there to attack there because Bobby would know what was happening.  I don't know as whether he knew as to whether people responsible were members of the security branch.

CHAIRPERSON: You've said his brother had a file with you.  That would imply from what you've just been telling us that you would have a list of all the people living in the house, would it not?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, that is true.

MR STANDER: You also told us that after the house had been bombed, you heard someone, a woman crying - crying out.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No she was not left out, she just screamed.  I don't know what happened - then we left but she didn't go outside.

MR STANDER: Didn't it matter to you at all who had been hurt by this petrol-bombing?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly that you say that it was your policy - and when I say yours, I mean the security police's policy, to fight against the whole family?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I mean all members of the family.

CHAIRPERSON: Not minding their sex or their age?  That you would go as you said, I think it's your words: "we would hit or attack the whole family?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, that is true.

MR STANDER: Do you know what the reason for this was, why the whole family had to be attacked?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: In terms of the security, the family - the head of the family or the breadwinner influences other members of the family, that is why the whole family would be attacked -  I mean in politics.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, this may be an appropriate time to adjourn.  I confirm that I'm not finished with this but there are a few matters about which I have to consult over the lunch break.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll take the adjournment now.  How much time to you need, will a quarter to 2 be all right for you or would you ...[inaudible] If you are still consulting at a quarter to 2, let us know.