Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1997-04-09

MR BLACK: Burn, burn, sorry, burn the whole building down, when you say one of them, are you referring to, who are you, are you referring to one of the six that were causing trouble?

MR MASUPA: Yes Sir.  One of them amongst the six, the word came that we will come back and burn the whole shopping complex.

ADV DE JAGER: Who said that?

MR MASUPA: I am not sure who said those words amongst them, because they were at a distance.  There were - where they were it was a little bit dark and all of them were insulting and talking, then he said at the shop you are full of shit.

MR BLACK: Were they sober at the time?  Had they been drinking or were they sober?

MR MASUPA: According to my observation they were drunk because if you know a person and when you discipline him, not trying to hear you, according to my observation they were drunk.  They were not even listening to me.
	One person who was working there, helped them to go outside.

MR BLACK: The David you are referring to, is that David Matsabula, who testified?

MR MASUPA: Yes, that is David.

MR BLACK: Did he work at the shop?

MR MASUPA: Yes, he was working at the shop.

MR BLACK: You managed to get these people out of the shop.  Did you lock the doors, the shop doors?

MR MASUPA: After we took them outside, we were able to lock the burglar doors.  We closed all the steel doors and at that time, they were talking but they were going away.  When people are talking in a group and the person who said they will come back  and burn the house, and those who were insulting, you will not be able to identify their voices who is speaking at that time, who says what and what.

MR BLACK: But you say you heard them, coming from them, distinctly saying that they will be coming back and they will burn the whole business down?

MR MASUPA: Yes, they said that they will come back and they will burn the whole shopping centre.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Masupa, during your criminal trial didn't you say that it was Mr Matsomai and Maqlanga who made such utterances about coming back to burn down the shop?

MR MASUPA: It might be them, because I was able to identify, I was trying to identify the voices of individual people, because all of them were six.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you are saying you might have been mistaken during the criminal trial, the evidence that you gave might have been untrue?

MR MASUPA: I would not say I was mistaken, there were no other people except the six of them.

MR BLACK: I think the passage referred to by the Commissioner appears on page 17, towards the bottom of the page.

JUDGE WILSON: Line 26?

MR BLACK: 26, yes.  It says that it is Lazarus and number 5, who was Patrick, amongst other things said they will come back and all of you inside the shop, we will set the shop alight.  Is that more or less what happened?  Was there confusion?

MR MASUPA: You mean whilst they were still talking?

MR BLACK: Yes, while they were leaving and while you were getting them out of the shop they were saying amongst themselves they will come back and they will burn the shop down?

MR MASUPA: They said so that they will return and burn the shop.

MR BLACK: What effect did this have on you?

MR MASUPA: They didn't have a chance because I knew that
after we have closed, there are people who were on guard, there is security in the sjibeen on top who are always guarding the place.

MR BLACK: Okay.  Now did they return after they had caused havoc amongst the customers and were sjamboking people and you got them out of the shopping complex?  What I want to get at, you said at one stage that they were also expressing - you heard them saying that you think that you are better
than us.  Is that so?  What else did you hear them say, did they say that you think that you are better than us, you said something like that?

MR MASUPA: They were saying we are trying to make us better, we are trying to make ourselves better.  They were passing derogatory statements.  I was not sure as to whether they were insulting us for what because they came with the intention to fight us.

MR BLACK: When you say us, who are you talking about?

MR MASUPA: I mean us, we people who, I mean we the workers, or maybe the owner of the shop.

MR BLACK: When did they start insulting you, is this after you had told them to leave the shop because they were misbehaving?

MR MASUPA: After we took them outside, then they started insulting.

MR BLACK: Now, I just don't want to go into every detail again of your evidence which you testified, but the cause of you asking them to leave, was because I understand they were sjamboking people and they were causing havoc amongst the customers, is that correct?

MR MASUPA: That is true, because they started fighting with the customers.  They just started attacking the
customers and hitting them with sjamboks.  Then I was able to see that this people were coming to fight.

MR BLACK: Now how did you get them out of the shop?

MR MASUPA: I went outside the counter and I pleaded with them to leave.  One of the workers pushed them outside the shop, then they said, now because you are fighting, therefor you have got to go outside.

MR BLACK: Who was that worker, was that David Matsabulah?

MR MASUPA: That is David, Sir.

MR BLACK: Okay.  So you didn't have a whole lot of people helping you to push them out?

MR MASUPA: No, no Sir.  People who were inside the shop were customers only and other people who were there were girls or ladies, who were helping us in the shop.

MR BLACK: Did you assault any of these six people, you or David?  Were they hit by you people?

MR MASUPA: There was no one amongst them who was slapped or even us, they didn't insult us.  Or they didn't assault us and we didn't assault them.  There was no person who was fighting with them.

MR BLACK: Okay.  Now after this incident and you got them out, they threatened to come back and burn the place down and they said that you had insulted them and you thought that you were better than them, did they ever come back to that shop that day?

MR MASUPA: They never came back.  Because after about 10 minutes, I was sent to go fetch newspapers at a certain house.  I drove to that house, when I came back I was told to go home because some of my grandfather's children had already gone home and I was told to go home, they will take care of the shop.  And I left the shop in a hurry to go
home.  On my arrival there were ambulances and fire brigade and people were all over the street.
	I didn't understand what was happening because this whole issue that happened at the shop was already out of my mind, I never had anything of that kind in my mind.  When I arrived at home, some of my family members were already in the ambulance and the police arrived and I left with them.
	Mantha was laying on the lawn and she was telling us 
who did this and she was also taken into the ambulance.

MR BLACK: The next day you also went back to your home, that was, when I say your home, we are referring to the home of your mother, is that correct?

MR MASUPA: That is correct.

MR BLACK: Now, the next day you went back to your mother's home as well, is that so?

MR MASUPA: That is correct, Sir.

MR BLACK: What happened while you were at  your mother's home?

MR MASUPA: A group of boys who work at the shop came to help us clean the house, take the damaged property outside and after a few minutes, the comrades arrived.

MR BLACK: How many comrades arrived?

MR MASUPA: I don't want to lie.  I think every comrade around Daveyton was at home, they wanted to understand what was actually happening and as we were cleaning, we explained to them everything that happened and they said okay, we will go out ourselves and search for them.
	We will assist the police because you have already reported the matter to the police.  The police were told this incident on the same day.  The comrades left then to go and look for these people.