Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-13

MR TIPP: In conclusion, Mr Zuma, I would like you to address the Committee on the reason for your application today for amnesty.  The Committee is aware and has before it your supplementary affidavit but I'm going to ask you once again -in your own words - this morning to set out why it is that you seek amnesty?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Well the reason why I apply for amnesty is because I was advised by my lawyers, my legal advisors that in the pending inquest, which was pending then, it might be found that one exceeded the bounds of self defence or used excessive force and that I might be found to be by the criminal or civil court to have acted in a manner that is not lawful and apart from that, it is also important for me, I find it very important for me to apply for amnesty so that we can - this matter can be resolved in a manner that was afforded to us, I mean through the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

MR TIPP: You've made mention in your supplementary affidavit and in the course of your evidence this morning already of the ballistics evidence and is it correct also, Mr Zuma, that some aspects of the medical evidence relating to the deceased has been explained to you also?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: It was also explained to me by my legal advisors the result of the ballistics and the medical report and I therefore concede that would that objective evidence put before me, I might have exceeded the bounds of self defence, I might have shot the people, I mean obviously people were shot when they were - from the back so I might have shot them or injured them.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by that?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I mean I have a picture in my mind of what happened on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: That the people were charging towards us, they were attacking but now - and also I have a picture in my mind that these people fired in my direction.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: But now it has been found by ballistics that I might be wrong, the people did not directly fire at the position in which I was - that I concede.  It has also been found that most of the people who were shot from the back except for maybe one who was stabbed.  So that I cannot deny because it's an objective evidence from the ballistics and medical and it is therefore for that reason that I concede that while one might have gone - might have shot more than what we should have done.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but you were shooting at the man who had an AK47 as I understand your evidence?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Thank you.

MR TIPP: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TIPP

CHAIRPERSON: Did you intentionally shoot people in the back?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Well, at that time when it happened, it was so quick so there was no way of precisely saying that this person is facing this way or that way but when I was shooting, these people as far as I can remember they were facing us and they were charging - but I also considered it might have been that some of them might have turned or most of them might have turned because of the objective evidence that has been put before me as I have said.

CHAIRPERSON: Which of you will be leading - will be starting off?

MR PRETORIUS: With the Committee and the Honourable Chairman's permission, I will.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Zuma, you are still maintaining that the crowd or the marchers attacked you, is that correct?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: That is correct.  Sorry, but I'm putting it into context, you must not take it out of context.  I am saying that is how I recollect or it is how I recall the day, there's no other picture, the ballistic evidence and medical evidence is there.  It says something else, I concede that it says something else but what I am saying is that I've got that picture in my mind and I don't have any other picture.  I'm not going to say because I've seen this ballistic evidence therefore now I recollect it differently, I recollect it the same way as I had done during the inquest, the same way as I had done earlier on but it is just that I am proved by an objective evidence and that I concede.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Zuma, you are a Zulu as well, is that correct?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: That is correct.

MR PRETORIUS: Can you explain to the Committee and the Honourable Chairman how the traditional Zulus regard their King and how do they react to his wishes?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: The Zulus take - regard the King in a very high esteem, they have got all the respect for the King - most of the Zulus or let me say some of the Zulus.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think, Mr Zuma, you're being asked about the so called traditional Zulus.

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: As far as I'm concerned there's no different - there's no traditional Zulu and a Zulu.  Once you are a Zulu you are a Zulu, once you are a French you are a French, you can't have a traditional French and a French so I don't understand that theory.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps, Mr Pretorius, if you could just indicate to the witness what is it that you mean by a traditional Zulu?

MR PRETORIUS: A traditional Zulu is a Zulu who still is very faithful to the Zulu traditions and holds his King in high esteem etc. etc.  Do you accept that?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: I am that kind of Zulu myself.

CHAIRPERSON: How does one distinguish by looking at people whether they are traditional or not?

MR PRETORIUS: It is not merely by looking at people Mr Honourable Chairman, it is the conduct of that people what is inside him, how he feels about his King etc.  It is possible for instance for - to put it in another way - for a South African person to immigrate to England and then when he's in England, lose track of his traditions in South Africa, etc. etc. and then become more British orientated than taking care of his own traditions.

CHAIRPERSON: My mind whether perhaps you were trying to draw the distinction between an urbanised Zulu and a rural Zulu living in a rural area, in my mind I wanted to know whether, when you talk about traditional, whether that has anything to do with it?

MR PRETORIUS: Not at all Mr Chairman, as I've explained that a person, doesn't matter where he lives but with what his conduct is and how he takes care of his own traditions.

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Well I thought maybe I can assist you on that one -you see I am a Zulu, I am very loyal to the King, I am very loyal to the King and I do Zulu custom, I know Zulu custom - slaughtering of goats, many other things, I do those things but I stay in an urban area, I stay in the Pretoria suburb.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Zuma, the second part of my question, my first question was - a Zulu person, how would he react when he is informed what the wishes of his King is?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: When he is informed of his wishes of the King, you mean informed by the IFP or by the Induna?

MR PRETORIUS: Maybe we should start that - can you explain the position of an Induna in the Zulu hierarchy to the Committee?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: The position of Induna is the one who represents the King in certain areas.  You know the King has got his own representative or the Chiefs.  The Chiefs will represent the King and then the Chiefs will have their Headmen, different Headmen - that is Induna in different areas, sort of a local government.

MR PRETORIUS: Now if a Zulu is informed by his Induna what the wishes of his King is, how would he react?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: He will react positively.

MR PRETORIUS: I put it to you that in so far as the objectors which we represent is concerned, there was a meeting at Nancefield Hostel called for by the Indunas.  Do you deny that?

BETHUEL MONDLI ZUMA: Well unfortunately at that time I was not staying in Nancefield Hostel so I cannot deny that, there might have been various meetings of the Zulus in different areas.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that all the people you represent come from Nancefield Hostel?