Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: What time did you go away?

MR SNYMAN: It would have been through the course of the morning.  I cannot recall exactly at what time.

GEORGE BIZOS: How many hours was he left in this position?

MR SNYMAN: I would not be able to tell you, because I had to withdraw at a later stage.

GEORGE BIZOS: What time did you leave?

MR SNYMAN: It is possible that it might have been after 10 or at half past 10.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you must have waited for the better part of the day for him to recover so that you can continue with your interrogation?

MR SNYMAN: Col Goosen instructed me that I had to provisionally withdraw;  that he would handle the situation himself, subsequent to that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you give any instructions as the person who originally put this person in a position which you considered as torture;  did you give any instructions as to when it should stop?

MR SNYMAN: No, your Honour.  I withdrew and Col Goosen said that he would handle the matter after that.

GEORGE BIZOS: When did you see him again?

MR SNYMAN: Through the course of the afternoon I returned and at that time the situation had not changed.  The next morning I also made enquiries and I was told that the situation had not changed.

GEORGE BIZOS: And during the afternoon, was he still in the same position?

MR SNYMAN: I cannot recall, but it is possible.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you not concerned as to how long a person was shackled against a grille, unable to rest his legs by movement or his arms by movement or to sit down, particularly as he appeared to you to be injured?  Did you not care?

MR SNYMAN: No, it was not a matter of a lack of care.  I would agree that it was inhumane, but we were acting under instructions.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, did you know that a person with a head injury, evidenced by slurred speech, by uncoordinated movements, requires medical attention as soon as possible?

MR SNYMAN: I am aware of that, your Honour, but as I have said, I reported the matter to my commanding officer and subsequently had nothing to do with it since he had told me that he would handle the situation from thereon.

GEORGE BIZOS: Would it not be your responsibility as the chief interrogator of Mr Biko to look into his condition and find out whether he required any medical attention?

MR SNYMAN: That is exactly why I brought the matter to the attention of Col Goosen.  We said to him that the person does appear to have been injured.

GEORGE BIZOS: What do you do when a person that receives even a minor injury on the rugby field or some other sport;  what do they do with him almost immediately?

MR SNYMAN: The correct procedure would be to call in a medical officer as soon as possible.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, and to have an X-ray to see whether there was any brain damage in order to try and give him medical attention as soon as possible to try and reverse the effects of the brain damage.

MR SNYMAN: I would agree with you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you now?  And you knew that one of the sure signs
of disorientation and slurred speech is of brain injury?

MR SNYMAN: That might have been the case.  I am, however, not a medical person.  I would not bear knowledge of this.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, rugby coaches are not doctors either, but they know what to do with a person that has had a head injury and has got slurred speech and is confused.

MR SNYMAN: I believe that I did my duty when I made this known to my commanding officer.

GEORGE BIZOS: What arrangement was made whilst Mr Biko was shackled against this grille about his toilet requirements?

MR SNYMAN: That would have received attention from the person guarding him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Wasn't it your general responsibility in order to see to it once you chose this cruel and inhuman manner of practically suspending him from a grille, to make some sort of suggestion as to how his toilet requirements may be addressed?

MR SNYMAN: I did mention it to my commanding officer ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: What did you say?

MR SNYMAN: ... and I told him of the injury of the scuffle;  that we wanted to restrain the person, that we wanted to exert pressure on the person.  I brought this information to him, I informed him that he probably hit his head against the wall and he then informed me or told me that he would handle the matter from there onwards. I then left the matter in his hands.

GEORGE BIZOS: When did you find out that Mr Biko had become incontinent as a result of his injury?

MR SNYMAN: I'm not following?

GEORGE BIZOS: When did you find out for the first time that Mr Biko could no longer control his functions;  that he could not keep his urine back, had not control over it?  When did you find that out?

MR SNYMAN: I bear no knowledge thereof.  That was determined by Col Goosen and the medical doctor who attended to him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you know that early in the morning of the 7th?

MR SNYMAN: I was informed by the people who guarded him who said to me that his situation had not changed.

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't you see him?

MR SNYMAN: It is possible that I'd walked in there.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why do you say, speak of possibilities?  Don't you remember that you must have gone in in order to see how the person that you had manacled against the grille was faring the next morning;  whether he was still in the same position or whether he had been given an opportunity to sleep or anything like that?

MR SNYMAN: My responsibilities ceased after Col Goosen instructed me to withdraw.  He had said to me that he would handle the matter from there onwards.

JUDGE WILSON: May I just ask you a question; when you went there the following morning, did you still see him in the same position he was when you left on the previous day?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I am not able to recall whether I entered the room or simply asked a question of the people who were guarding him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you not learn the next morning that he had wet his pants, his blankets and that he was completely disorientated?  Didn't your learn that the next morning?

MR SNYMAN: I did not receive this information.  I was only told that he had been seen by the doctor.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm sorry, there was a break in the sound.

MR SNYMAN: I bear no knowledge thereof.  I had been told that the district surgeon did see him on the 7th.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you see Mr Beneke coming suddenly into the room and rugby-tackling Mr Biko with a shoulder and finishing against the wall?  Did you see that?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, you will recall that I spoke to you about Mr Niewoudt admitting that he hit Mr Biko with a hosepipe.  I want to read to you, in Afrikaans, because of it's importance, a passage from Mr Siebert's application in paragraph, the second last paragraph on page 13(f).

CHAIRPERSON: Page 6.

GEORGE BIZOS: Page 6 of the typed page 6, but the - of Mr Siebert's application, but 13(f) of the paginated papers.
	You have it before you.  Please read it out.
"Tydens hierdie gestoeiery ..."
Please read that out aloud.

MR SNYMAN: "During this wrestling and fighting
I became aware of Det-Sgt Niewoudt on several occasions beating Biko on the back with a piece of cut-off hosepipe.  Subsequently the three of us grabbed Biko and moved with him in the direction of the corner of the room and ran against the wall into the wall with him."

GEORGE BIZOS: Is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: As I have read it there, your Honour.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, I know that you've read it.  I'm not asking you whether you read it correctly.  Are the facts correct?

MR SNYMAN: As I have said, your Honour, that might have occurred, but I bore no knowledge thereof.