Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-20

MR STRYDOM: The other applicants, Sipho Buthelezi, will still testify.  Do you know if he is from Umsinga?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I know that he was born and bred here in Johannesburg, from Zone 12.

MR STRYDOM: And Jack Mbele, or Dondo, he has already testified.  Is he from Umsinga?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I know him to be from Sharpville, not Umsinga.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person by the name of Andries Matanzima Nosenga?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No, I do not know him.  I have never seen him before.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know if he was part of the attack on Boipatong, as far as your knowledge goes?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I first heard of his name, while I was in prison.  I heard that he had come to the hostel on ANC instruction.
	I do not have full details of what happened there, because I was already incarcerated, in prison, by then, but I do not know that person.  As a youth leader, if he had been in the hostel whilst I was there, I would know him because every youth person, any person who was at that level, was brought to me and I would have records of such a person, so I would know him if he was at the hostel at the time.

MR STRYDOM: According to your records, was Mr Nosenga at the hostel on the 17th of June 1992?  Can I add something, your records and your recollection?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No, I do not have any records.

MR STRYDOM: You were convicted in the criminal court, is that correct?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: And the Court found that you were in Boipatong on the night of the attack, was that a correct finding?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: The Court insisted that I had been present in the attack, although I tried to explain that I did not take part because of ill health.  That is why I was convicted.

MR STRYDOM: I've got no further questions.  Sorry, I in fact have got, I forgot about something, sorry.
	Do you or did you know a person by the name of Nomvula?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did know that person, although I was not close to her.

MR STRYDOM: And did you hear what happened to her?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I heard that she was burnt.

MR STRYDOM: Was that before the attack on Boipatong?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes.  That is true.

MR STRYDOM: Mr David Mbele, did you know him?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I heard about him.  I did not know the people of Tserela very well.

MR STRYDOM: And Mr Khumalo?  Sorry, can I just ask you, you said you heard something about Mr Mbele, what did you hear about him?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I heard that he had been killed.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Khumalo, Mr B.L. Khumalo?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I knew Mr Khumalo and I also heard that he had been burnt and killed.

MR STRYDOM: Did you know a Mr Elias Sebiya who was staying in Boipatong and his address was 2202 Sihiso Street?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I knew of a certain Sebiya, whose car had been burnt down and he was assaulted and he had to be hospitalised.
	I am not sure whether you are referring to the very same one that I do know.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Pretorius?

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Buthelezi, did Themba Khoza come to the hostel often to address meetings, or was it only on special occasions?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: As far as I know, he did not frequent the hostel, unless there was something that he had to inform us about, that is on political matters.

MS PRETORIUS: After the attack, was he at the hostel only once during that week, or twice?  Will you know that?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Please repeat the question?

MS PRETORIUS: After the attack, did he come to the hostel during that week, once or twice?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: According to my knowledge, he came twice.  He came on a Friday and he also returned midweek when the police had cordoned off the hostel.
	We requested him to come and negotiate with the police that we should be able to go out and buy ourselves food and necessary things that we needed at the hostel.

MS PRETORIUS: Were you aware that there was a decision that all the loot from Boipatong had to be burnt?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: As I mentioned before, that I went to town early the following morning.  I did not get to hear of that information.

MS PRETORIUS: Did you know Victor Keswa?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I know him.

MS PRETORIUS: Was he a member of the Youth Brigade?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, he was.

MS PRETORIUS: Do you know whether he went out into the townships to shoot people?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I do not have any information to that effect.  What I can explain is that there were no set times regarding the movements of the people in or out of the hostel, people were free to move as they pleased.

MS PRETORIUS: The day to day business of the Youth League, was it run by all eight members of the Youth League leadership or was there a smaller committee, who did the everyday work of the Youth Brigade?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: If for instance, we were to have a meeting, we would meet as a committee to formulate an agenda.

MS PRETORIUS: Did the police, before the attack on Boipatong, did any police come and talk to the residents of kwaMadala?  Was there a meeting addressed by the police at kwaMadala before this attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: The police usually came to search the hostel.  They never came to address us on any matter.

MS PRETORIUS: Did you know Mr Peens from the police, Pedro Peens?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I do not know that person.  I would not even be able to identify him.

MS PRETORIUS: Did Themba Khoza ever address a meeting where white policemen also addressed the meeting, before the attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: No.

MS PRETORIUS: I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Da Silva?

MR DA SILVA: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.  Mr Buthelezi, you testified that you heard an alarm on the 17th of June and I gather the reason for the alarm was for the people to gather at the stadium.  Can you say what time you heard this more or less?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: I think it was around eight o'clock in the evening.

MR DA SILVA: You say that Mr Khanyile came into the room. Was this before or after the attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: When the alarm rang, he went out for a very long time.  Although I could not have looked at my watch, but he was gone for quite a long time.

MR DA SILVA: When Mr Khanyile was in the room, can you estimate what time this was more or less?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Unfortunately I did not look at the watch, because I was not well.

MR DA SILVA: I don't have any further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes Ma'am?

MS TANZER: Do you have records of all the members of the Youth Brigade?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: At the time I did have a list of everyone.  Unfortunately when the police were investigating this matter, they confiscated all those records, and they were never returned to me.

MS TANZER: Could you say that you knew every single member of the Youth Brigade?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did know them, but there were many members and I was not with them all the time, but there are some that I do remember.

MS TANZER: How many members would you say that there approximately were at the time of the attack?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: Unfortunately I cannot give a figure, because there were many.
	The book of records would be the one to actually give an exact number.

MS TANZER: Could you say though that every IFP member or Youth Brigade member, was carrying a card?  Did he have to carry a certain card to be a member?

MQAMBELENI BUTHELEZI: A Youth Brigade member had to have a card, so that we would also be certain that he indeed was a member.

MS TANZER: Are you certain that you do not know of a person known as Matanzima, maybe not Nosenga, but the name Matanzima, does that not ring a bell somewhere?