Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-28

CHARLES ZWANE: The only thing I know about it, it is this photo which was shown to me by the Security Branch Police which looks like the photo was taken, the photo looked like a photo of a person who was (indistinct), and the photo was taken and I was asked whether is this really V?

MS HASSEN: So in other words you know nothing about the death of V?

CHARLES ZWANE: No, I know nothing about that.

MS HASSEN: You were then released on the 17th of November 1988?

CHARLES ZWANE: Yes.

MS HASSEN: And I presume you went to your parents' home?

CHARLES ZWANE: Yes.

MS HASSEN: What happened thereafter, can you tell us about in your statement you make reference of Maxwell Madondo and Siboniso Chili?  Can you tell us what happened then regarding these two gentlemen?

CHARLES ZWANE: In fact when I came out of prison, that was as you have said, that was November 1988, I stayed for December and the following year I heard rumours that Siboniso, referring to the Chili boy, that he was having a fight with the so-called Mandela Football Club.

MS HASSEN: From who did you hear this?

CHARLES ZWANE: It was a rumour in the township that there was a fight between Siboniso and the Mandela Football Club.

MS HASSEN: And the Mandela Football Club?

CHARLES ZWANE: Yes.

MS HASSEN: What did you do then?

CHARLES ZWANE: What I did, I went to Siboniso's place, it was afternoon, in the company of a friend, and I went to find out by Siboniso what was really going on because I heard  only rumours, I didn't get the story exactly.  I got to Siboniso's place, but I can't recall what we really discussed during my visit, but we were talking about the same friction which I heard between him and the Mandela Football Club.

MS HASSEN: All right, with which friend did you go to Siboniso?

CHARLES ZWANE: The name of the friend, Duduza.

MS HASSEN: Duduza?  And what happened then Charles?

CHARLES ZWANE: I left Siboniso at his place and I went home to do my school work, because by then I was also still a student.
 I had to go home and do my school work.

MS HASSEN: Were you a member of the Mandela United Football Club at this point in time?

CHARLES ZWANE: I was never not at this point in time, I was never a member of the Mandela Football Club, at any point of time.

MS HASSEN: All right.  What happened thereafter?  I understand that you were questioned by the Special Branch of the South African Police?

CHARLES ZWANE: After the attack at Mrs Chili's house I was arrested, it was two days or three days, I was arrested by the Protea Security Branch Police and I was questioned for the bombing of Mrs Chili's house and the other incident, the killing of police around Soweto.
 And the same day I was released, because my father fought with the police when they came to arrest me  that I was going to school and then they questioned me and they released me at a later stage.

MS HASSEN: Did you know that Mrs Chili's house had been bombed?

CHARLES ZWANE: Yes, of course I knew.

MS HASSEN: And how did you hear about this, how did you know about this?

CHARLES ZWANE: When - I would like to answer the question, whatever happened in the township, in our black township and Mrs Chili's house, I could say it is my neighbour, it is not far from my place, so when I woke up, everybody knew that there was a bombing at Mrs Chili's place.

MS HASSEN: All right, Charles tell me were you still in possession of the hand grenade at the time when Mrs Chili's house was bombed as you had alluded to us earlier that you had two hand grenades at the time of the attack on Xola's house?

CHARLES ZWANE: In answering that question, I think I have been in possession of grenades, AK's, Scorpions, I have stated before that I have been a member of Umkhonto weSizwe, so I was in most in possession of such things.

MS HASSEN: But at the time of the bombing of Mrs Chili's house, did you have the hand grenades with you?

CHARLES ZWANE: I can't remember, I can't remember really myself.

MS HASSEN: You said in your statement that you were arrested about two months later, why were you arrested?

CHARLES ZWANE: In fact we had a friction was at the shebeen and my commander was there with me, and people were fighting me and we got angry and he used the hand grenade and we were arrested in the result of that incident.

MS HASSEN: All right.  So this was for the bombing of Mr Nhlonga's house in Orlando West?

CHARLES ZWANE: Exactly.

MS HASSEN: All right, I understand that you say in your statement that you were tortured into giving a statement.  Can you tell us about this torture?

CHARLES ZWANE: In fact what happened, after I was arrested for the hand grenade blast at Nhlonga's place, I was taken to Protea police station and was detained under Section 29 and it is where ...

MS HASSEN: Are you all right?

MR VALLY: Archbishop, it might be appropriate to stand this witness down, and we can call the next witness, Commissioner Fivaz and when this witness has recovered, we can call him after lunch.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I was going to say after you had finished with leading your client, that we would not proceed to cross-examination because we were going to be calling the next witness, Commissioner Fivaz, who is going to be available only between now and two o'clock, then we would recall your client.

MS HASSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Fivaz, good morning Commissioner.  We would like to apologise because we have been delayed.  You should have been here yesterday, and you came and I am very sorry, but everybody were here running very far behind our schedule and I am very grateful that with your kind of schedule, you were ready to make yourself available and so, Yasmin Sooka will administer the oath or take the affirmation.

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: She is a briefer, just in case you need support.

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: Thank you, one never knows.

CHAIRPERSON: Piers?

MR PIGOU: Sorry Archbishop, I was caught off guard downstairs.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you all right now?

MR PIGOU: Yes, thank you.  Good morning Commissioner Fivaz, thank you for coming.  Commissioner Fivaz, the main area of questioning from the TRC, is in relation to the 1995 investigation into the murder of Abu-Baker Asvat and subsequent investigations, the murder of Cookie Zwadi and the disappearances of Lolo Sono and Anthony Shabalala.
 I wonder whether you can give us some background to the 1995 investigation, how it came about that this investigation was in effect relaunched or reopened?

JOHN GEORGE FIVAZ: Chairman, I have submitted a copy of my statement to the TRC, with your permission I can read it out and I can hand the original signed, sworn one in for the purposes of administration.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.