Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

MR MOTLAUNG: Now, as far as your knowledge of the policies, principles etc., of the AWB went and from the things that were said in meetings, either open public meetings or meetings where only officers could attend, was it ever the policy of the AWB to kill or maim innocent civilians or even damage their property?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: What we were told to do, when you believe in the AWB is that what you are asking me?

MR MOTLAUNG: I'm sorry, it seems we're at crossed lines.  I'm asking you, from your knowledge of what the AWB stood for, it's policies, principles etc., and from the things that were said in meetings of whatever nature, was it ever the policy of the AWB to kill, maim or injure innocent civilians or damage their property?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Chairperson if you want an answer, that you just go into the street, assault people, it shouldn't be like that.  But when your life was threatened and you had to defend yourself, in those cases it's a completely different set up.

MR MOTLAUNG: Now having regarded yourself as being in a war situation, who would you have identified as the enemy?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: In a war situation where war was already declared.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you'd better define that war you referred to.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Maybe I should start by asking the applicant to describe to me what was his impression of a war.  What was your understanding of this war?  What type of war was this?

MS BOSMAN: Perhaps you could put it more simply.  Against who did the AWB and the Volksfront wage a war?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Against the people who were opposed to our principles Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: And who were these people who were opposed to your policies or principles?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I suppose that's the people who did not come with us, who did not want us to have a Volkstaat and those people who wanted an election where the ANC would come into power against us.

MR MOTLAUNG: Is it your evidence that any person who didn't trek with you to the Western Transvaal, you'd regard as an enemy?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's how I saw it Chairperson because that 40 thousand people would have joined us, would have been the people who wanted the Volkstaat.

CHAIRPERSON: Most of the people you thought who would be in favour of the Volkstaat?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I can't hear you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the most amount of people at that time you think would have been in favour of a Volkstaat, or the establishment of a Volkstaat?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Chairperson, as I understood it, with regards to the amount of members in the AWB, we were given an amount and there were six figures, so that would be more than one hundred thousand, six figures.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's say, at the most it would have been a bit less than a million.  Did you then think at that time, let's make it a million people.  The rest of the people in this country, were they then the enemy?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: In this war of which you're speaking?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Chairperson, that could have been the case but I believe not in amounts or figures because a lot of people said the ANC would walk over us but I did not believe in the amount of people that would have created a victory.  I believe the Almighty God, if the Almighty God was on our side we would be victorious.  So if a hundred thousand men, nobody would stand a chance against us.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you.  Am I then understanding you correctly that as far as you were concerned, once you were in the Western Transvaal anywhere the Volkstaat would be, anybody outside would be regarded by yourselves as a legitimate target?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I do not want to answer you incorrect but could you please repeat the question in order for me to understand what you want?

MR MOTLAUNG: Do I understand you correctly that once you were in the Western Transvaal where the Volkstaat would be, would it be fair to say that you would then regard any other person, irrespective of colour or location, as long as that person is outside the Western Transvaal where the Volkstaat would be, you would regard that person as a legitimate target?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: In that case can I put my answer as follows, in that case we did not have a Volkstaat.  We were provided with a Volkstaat.  In other words, the others who did not march up with us were those who criticised us for our Volkstaat and did not want to give it to us and they were our enemy.

MR MOTLAUNG: Is it not correct Sir, that you never expected any black person to trek with you to the Western Transvaal?  In fact you actively discouraged them from doing so?  Is that not so Sir?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No I do not understand your question.

CHAIRPERSON: In this Volkstaat, would it have been possible that a black person could live and work in that area?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I've got nothing against that.  If they can just provide us with a life, he could have come to work for me.

CHAIRPERSON: Would he have the right to vote in that Volkstaat?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: The right to vote we cannot provide him, that is in what we believe.  That in his own area he can have a say that he has got a person from his own group.  For example, a Zulu governs a Zulu, Xhosa governs a Xhosa and we have our own leader who governs his own people.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it as follows.  If it would have been established and black people had their own area, would a member of the AWB have the right to go and look for work from a black person?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Would a member of the AWB, did he have the right to go and work for a black person?  If he believed it, yes he could.

CHAIRPERSON: What would happen with his membership in the AWB?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Nobody talked about what would happen to such a person.

CHAIRPERSON: The reason why I ask this question is, in the guidelines in that book that you quoted earlier on.

MR MOTLAUNG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Let's move to the Germiston bombing.  From your answers regarding the Bree Street bombing, it seems to me your evidence would be that as far as that bomb is concerned, you had no knowledge about it, that it was going to be planted, you never played any role in that action, is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct.  I did not know about the planning of the bomb.

MR MOTLAUNG: And as far as the pipe bombs are concerned, you say that you knew that they would be used, correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is correct.

MR MOTLAUNG: According to you Sir, how would they be used?  Who would be attacked, using these bombs?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No, that was not told to us.

MR MOTLAUNG: What would be your understanding yourself?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Those pipe bombs had to be placed in order to create chaos, to disrupt the elections that would take place because everybody realised there's nothing to stop the ANC from coming into power because they are a majority or would stand against the ANC and vote because we already saw that people were intimidated to gain what they wanted.

MR MOTLAUNG: But talking about the sowing of that chaos.  How would you go about sowing that chaos?  What was your understanding?  For example go to a creche or a nursery where school children are and plant the bomb or to a church where people are praying, plant the bomb?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Mr Chairperson, in a political struggle I saw that if you wanted to enforce something then certain lives would be lost.

MR MOTLAUNG: But Sir, is it not fair to say that, as a trained soldier, I would agree with your statement partly that there are times when certain innocent lives have to be lost by merely being caught in the cross fire but it's not really intended for them.  Was that not your understanding?