Special Hearings — Helderberg Flight Special Hearing — 1998-06-01

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Probably that's taking it a bit far.

DR KLATZOW: Well, they were men who bore a responsible job, and they knew the functionings of a cockpit, is that not correct?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: They're Flight Engineers.

DR KLATZOW: Sorry?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: They're Flight Engineers.

DR KLATZOW: Well, they may be a lower species, Captain Mitchell, than you are, but they were men who spent a lot of time in the cockpit and would have known what went on in the cockpit, is that not correct?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Those are your words, a lower species.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I'm suggesting what you're implying.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I didn't imply that at all.

DR KLATZOW: Well, let's get to the question, is it likely that they would know what went on in the cockpit?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Oh yes.

DR KLATZOW: And that whatever they had to say about the interpretation of what went on in the cockpit was something to be taken seriously, not the ravings of a fool?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I would always listen to them.

DR KLATZOW: Yes.  Are you aware that that group of men prepared a report,

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: On the electrical systems?

DR KLATZOW: On the events as they went on in the cockpit and they placed a different interpretation on those events to that which was coming out on the Margo Enquiry.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I've never seen this - in the back of my head I think I may know about it, but I definitely haven't seen this.

DR KLATZOW: Were you ever in Margo's chambers when Ray Scott, Judge Bredas and Jimmy Mitten were called into Judge Margo's chambers?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I'm not aware where Judge Margo's chambers are, I think they're in the Supreme Court, I'm not aware,

DR KLATZOW: Yes, they were in the Supreme Court.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I'm not aware of where they are, sir, I can't say yes.  In fact I don't know where ...(intervention)

DR KLATZOW: Can you deny that you were present when Judge Margo called them in?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I met - Dr, I remember going to being called to Judge Margo's house,

DR KLATZOW: Yes.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: And I've been trying to think why I was called there and I do believe now, I mean, believing, because I can't remember the actual - there was somebody else or two people came out their motorcar, because they had been to see Judge Margo, and they were from the Airline and I think, I just think, sir, I think it was Jimmy Mouton plus, plus one, I'm not sure of that.

DR KLATZOW: Right, well, Jimmy Mouton tells me that he was called to Judge Margo's chambers.  Now, I don't want to debate with you whether it's his house or his chambers, because that could very well be the vagaries of memory, but they were summoned to Margo's presence, and you were present, and you've confirmed that.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I remember that, I can't, you know.

DR KLATZOW: Do you remember what Margo said to them?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: No, I really would tell you if I knew, I've got nothing to hide.

DR KLATZOW: Well I'm going to tell you what Ray Scott says that Margo said to them.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Alright, you tell me, because I ...(intervention)

DR KLATZOW: I'm going to read it to you, Mr Mitchell,
Peter de Beer the Chairman of the Flight Engineers Association, he had family in London"
he now flies for Pheonix Air, this was some years ago, '95, he plus Mouton plus Judge Bredas plus Ray Scott were called into Margo's chambers and told to drop the enquiry that the were pursuing.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: No, I'm not aware of this.

DR KLATZOW: They were told that it could cost the country R400 million rand, which co-incidentally is the cost of a Boeing at that time, they were told that it was causing tension, they were told that they did not have the expertise and that national security was at risk.  Present were, Mickey Mitchell, Margo, the Airline lawyer and he thinks the DCA was there,

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: And he thinks?

DR KLATZOW: The DCA, he was quite emphatic that you were there and you've confirmed that.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I've been - no, I was by myself when I went to Judge Margo.  That's - I remember going into his house.

DR KLATZOW: But you told me that Mittens was there.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: No, I think it was Mittens - when I drove into there and Dr, I am battling to find why I was there, I can't remember why ...(intervention)

DR KLATZOW: Well I want to suggest to you, you were there, ...(intervention)

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Can I finish?

DR KLATZOW: Yes.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Thank you.  When I drove in and I remember his house next to King Edwards and these people - and I remember them as Flight Engineers, I think Jimmy Mittens was there - I can't - I don't think I was ever in a meeting with the four of them or, who did the other one you say?

DR KLATZOW: Well do you think Ray Scott is lying?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I don't think so, just mistaken, but I don't remember that at all.

DR KLATZOW: Do you think that Jimmy Mittens is lying?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: No, I ...(intervention)

DR KLATZOW: So he's also mistaken?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: The same mistake?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Probably.

DR KLATZOW: Right.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I don't remember that - all those - I don't remember R400 million, I don't remember security, I don't remember State security, I don't remember - had it been there, I certainly would have remembered.

DR KLATZOW: Who was Joe Bellagada?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Joe Bellagada was the Flight Engineer on the aeroplane.

DR KLATZOW: Did he have a wife?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: What was her name?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I don't know.

DR KLATZOW: Her name was Yvonne Bellagada.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Yes, I do know now.

DR KLATZOW: Right.  She remembers you meeting Jimmy Mittens ...(intervention)

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: At her house.

DR KLATZOW: Outside the court.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: Do you remember that meeting?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Gee, I was there for a week, so I don't ...(intervention)

DR KLATZOW: They also remembered that you told Mitten to drop it, the enquiry.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: No, I'm not aware of the Enquiry, Dr, I'm not aware of this.

DR KLATZOW: Well, see this is very convenient, because I have the most interesting scenario before me.  I have you with every reason not to tell me the truth on this issue, and I have four other people who've confirmed that this even occurred, who implicate you in an event of an extremely serious nature in this investigation.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I agree it's very serious.

DR KLATZOW: I have your ball denial, I have statements inter alia under oath from four other people who maintain you were involved in getting this enquiry dropped.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: No, not at all.  I support fully that the enquiry is re-opened, if there are new things that have come in completely to find out whether this happened, Commissioner, I will be the first to ...(intervention)

DR KLATZOW: You've ducked the question, Captain Mitchell.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: No I haven't, I said ...(intervention)

DR KLATZOW: The question was, that enquiry by the Flight Engineers, they allege that you wanted that enquiry dropped together with Margo.

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: I'm not even aware of the Flight Engineer's enquiry.

DR KLATZOW: Did you follow the enquiries of the entire Helderberg enquiry, were you aware of the goings-on?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: No, I was only a witness there, you know, I ...(intervention)

DR KLATZOW: But you were part of the Airline?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: You realised that an aircraft had gone down?

MICHAEL PETER MITCHELL: Yes.

DR KLATZOW: You must have had a professional interest in finding out what went wrong?