Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-29

CHAIRPERSON: ... he comes, then we can then take a short adjournment and as soon as the interpreter arrives ...(intervention)

ADV PRIOR: Yes, I apologise.  I was told as you were virtually coming into the hall.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  I think also we can use this opportunity, the people in the gallery would then perhaps need these devices to follow the proceedings which will be simultaneously interpreted.  They are available from the sound technician in the front here, so if you wish to follow the proceedings, please, during this break, get one of these.  Thank you.  We'll then take an adjournment until the interpreter arrives.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Interpreter, did you get ...

INTERPRETER: Yes, I did Chair.  He seems to be having a
problem with his headphones.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear that last comment, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Yes, I did, but there's going to be some assistance now.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he on Channel 4?

MR BERGER: Yes, he is.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll just wait while Mr Pule gets another set of head phones.  Mr Berger could you please repeat your question?

MR BERGER: I will, Chairperson.

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: (sworn states)

MR BERGER: Is it correct Mr Pule that you were born in 1955 in Newclare, Johannesburg and that you went to school at Naledi High?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: There's an error in paragraph 2 of your statement, in that you left school during standard 9 and not standard 8, is that correct?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That's correct, that I did standard 8.  I was busy with standard 9, that's when I went to exile.

MR BERGER: You talk in paragraph 5 of your statement about what happened on the 16th of June 1976 and that you were in fact present in Soweto on the 16th of June 1976, is that right?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Is that while you were in Standard 9, during 1976?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, in 1976 I was doing Standard 9.

MR BERGER: As a result of what you experienced, witnessed, on that day and the days subsequent to the 16th of June, you then decided to go into exile and you left the country in August of 1976?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Now you've detailed in your statement and we're not going to go through it in detail, about what you did when you left the country, how you went to Tanzania, went to Moscow, the training that you received, and ultimately returning to Kashito camp, where you remained until 1981.  You confirm the contents of those paragraphs, is that right?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Now I'd like to move to 1981 when you were recruited by comrade Rashid as part of Special Operations.  You talk about working in Swaziland from 1981 until 1984, in Special Operations and then from after April 1984, because of the signing of the Nkomati Accord, you were withdrawn from Swaziland and redeployed to Botswana.  Now, you speak about working with Mr Dumakude, comrade Chris, both in Swaziland and in Botswana.  Could you briefly tell the Committee what work you were doing as part of Special Operations, particularly in Botswana after you left Swaziland?  What was the nature of your work?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Can you please explain and say whether I should only explain my duties in Botswana only?

MR BERGER: If you could start off with your duties in Swaziland, what you did in Swaziland, but then give a little more detail on what you were doing in Botswana from 1984 onwards.

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I arrived in Swaziland in 1981.  I was sent there by comrade Ismail.  My duties there were to be at the border to reconnoitre the situation.

MR BERGER: Yes, if you'll just speak a little slower so that the interpreter can translate.  Please continue.

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: I was there reconnoitring and also waiting for the soldiers who were coming over to Swaziland for training.

MR BERGER: These were soldiers of Umkhonto weSizwe?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You were also a soldier of Umkhonto weSizwe?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, at that time I had already completed my training, that is why comrade Aboobaker recruited me and sent me in Swaziland, so that I could accept soldiers who wanted to join Umkhonto weSizwe.

MR BERGER: What did you do with the soldiers when they came into the country, or they came out of the country and into Swaziland?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: My duty in Swaziland was that when they finished their training, was to arrange accommodation for them in Swaziland, where they could stay, to arrange accommodation and protection, before they were sent back into the country to fight.  Apart from accepting them in Swaziland, it was also to make sure when they are sent into the country to fight, that the way is well prepared for them.

MR BERGER: What does that mean, that the way is well prepared for them?  What did you have to do?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: My job was to make sure that when they cross the borders from Swaziland into South Africa, there were no soldiers that will stop them.  Apart from that, we had to make sure that there were people from South Africa, who were based in different cells in South Africa, who would accept them.

MR BERGER: When - sorry please continue.

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Another duty was to accept the arms from Maputo.  Those were sent from Maputo, so that if one soldier needed something, I could be able to give it to him.  I was also arranging money.  I would receive money from Aboobaker and I would decide how much money I would give to each one of them.

MR BERGER: You mentioned, I'm sorry to interrupt, but you mentioned arms that you would receive from Maputo and furnish these to the soldiers, is that correct?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: What sort of weapons would you pass on from Maputo to the soldiers of MK?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That would depend what their operations at that time would be, when they are sent into the country.  Apart from that, comrade Aboobaker told us before that that the people who would come, would need certain weapons and then we would prepare those weapons before they arrived at our place.  After that, we would keep contact with the people who were inside the country.  We would check the way for us so that the people that we sent back into the country will be well-protected when they come into the country.

MR BERGER: So is it your evidence that comrade Rashid would inform you that there are soldiers coming, they need certain weapons and ammunition and then it would be your task to make sure that those weapons and ammunition were ready when the soldiers arrived, so that they could be furnished with them?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: Yes, that's correct, even though it was not at all times.

MR BERGER: Please continue.

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: The reason why I say this, was that we had people who would bring weapons for us, so we'd give those weapons to the people who would arrive and it was not all times that they would use those weapons when they arrive.
	Sometimes those would be weapons that would help them to protect themselves when they come across the police or the soldiers.  Those weapons I'm referring to were AK47s, pistols and grenades.  Sometimes we'd give them the bombs, to use them.

MR BERGER: Those bombs that you would give them to use, those would be for the purposes of carrying out attacks inside South Africa, is that right?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Did you know what each particular operation was when you gave the bombs, for example, did you know what those bombs were going to be used for?

ERNEST LEKOTE PULE: When the soldiers arrived from Mozambique, they had already been in contact with comrade Aboobaker in Maputo.  When he came in Swaziland, he would tell them what they should do when they cross over.  It was not our duty to tell them that.  My duty was to give them what they required.