Amnesty Hearings — Hammarsdale — 1998-08-13

MR DLAMINI: I do not remember them clearly.  I did not know their names, but if I could see them, I could identify them because I did not know their names, there was no need for me to know their names, because if they were friends of Kay they would not be dangerous to me.  Therefore I did not see a need to ask who they were.

MR STEWART: And I take it from that that they were not Caprivian?

MR DLAMINI: No they were not.  They were people that I found at this house in Sakonja.

MR STEWART: Okay, now you told us that they were rearing to go.  How did you then proceed to get to the Injubakazi area?

MR DLAMINI: We walked on foot from Sakonja, we went through Mopela.  It was during the day.  We proceeded towards Nkosi Mkese's home in Injubakazi.  When we arrived there we saw a large number of people across, from Nkosi Mkese's home you can see their houses across.  There were bushes and forests in the area.
	I told the people that "now that you are at Injubakazi, you should start shooting".  I told them that there was no policemen and there was no-one.  If you see somebody you should take careful aim, shoot them.  Indeed they did this.  I lined them up and they started firing.  As they were firing we discovered that some were hiding in the bushes and the started returning fire.  I said to the person who was next to me, I said "give me that R1", I took it and I sat down and I hit a few.  Some fell down, and at the same time they were returning fire.  I fired.  
	We decided to stop, I told them to stop.  And then we returned on foot using the same route that we had taken before, but because of gunshots that were being fired, I think we used a route going through Unit 1, not ...(indistinct).  We had sent a boy to go fetch a car that will pick us up.  Indeed the car came and it picked us up.  I went to Unit 4.  Kay took all the guns and put them in his car.  I then went back to my home.

MR STEWART: Mr Dlamini are you aware how many people were injured or killed in this attack?

MR DLAMINI: I do not know.

MR STEWART: And do you know how many people you personally shot in this attack?

MR DLAMINI: Although I do not know how many there were, but when I fired, there were some people who got injured, but I do not know whether they died or not.

MR STEWART: And did you ever hear thereafter what happened?

MR DLAMINI: As a person who worked in the police station I subsequently heard that the detectives in the Mpumalanga Police Station had heard that I had been involved in the incident.  After hearing this I woke up the following morning, collected my belongings and went to Ulundi and reported to Mudla Induna.

MR STEWART: Now Mr Dlamini you touched on this on the introduction to the attack, but this is an important point, so I want you to cover it again.  This attack, you were effectively commanding this attack, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: Chair, I was the only Caprivi an amongst the people I was with and I'm the one who issued them with guns.

MR STEWART: So can you explain to the Committee then what was the objective of this attack?  What did you seek to achieve by attacking this area in that fashion when you were unable to identify individual people?

MR DLAMINI: Where we were was an ANC stronghold, the same ANC who had attacked our people and made them flee the area.  Therefore our going to that area meant to attack the ANC.  We did not discriminate because every person that we saw coming out of the houses,  fleeing, we attacked.

MR STEWART: How did you know that it was a so-called ANC area?

MR DLAMINI: Chair, the Kay that I was with is the person who knew that that was an ANC area.

MR STEWART: How did he know that it was a ANC area, was this something that was commonly known or did he investigate, or did you verify this investigation?  How could you be sure what area you were attacking?

MR DLAMINI: I was sure because even Mkupuleni who worked in ...(indistinct) would tell Kay where the ANC people are.

MR STEWART: Did you meet this Mkupuleni?

MR DLAMINI: I mentioned before that before the incident occurred, we met Mkupuleni.

MR STEWART: Mr Chairperson, would this be a convenient time?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Stewart, I see it's just past 11.  We will now take the tea adjournment and will resume at 11h30.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: May I remind you that you're under your former oath.

MR DLAMINI: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stewart?

MR STEWART: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Dlamini, this Sinatingi area, is it a big area?

MR DLAMINI: Yes it is a big area.

MR STEWART: And at that time that you were there, did - was it associated with one or other of the political groupings that had been fighting one another?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, it's like that.

MR STEWART: And was there a cemetery in that area?

MR DLAMINI: Yes there was.

MR STEWART: Now did anything used to happen often when there were funeral processions to the cemetery?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, it's like that.

MR STEWART: What used to happen with those funeral processions?

MR DLAMINI: This Nwabe house is nearby the cemetery, the people from Oushtown, Ganeza and ...(indistinct) and Edendale ...(indistinct), when these people go for their burial they used to pass that house that I was guarding.

MR STEWART: Now this particular incident no 3, which is on page 384, now this particular incident, was there a funeral procession which started this incident?

MR DLAMINI: Yes it is like that.

MR STEWART: So what happened from this funeral procession?

MR DLAMINI: What happened there, as I've indicated, in all these areas these people who used to go to bury in this cemetery, when they on their arrival for the procession, they used to throw stones on this house, gunshots and everything that they had while I was inside whilst guarding the house.  Myself with the other brother there Munene Person, in this incident, when these people arrived on busses, a lot of busses.  They fired on this house whilst they were passing on their to the cemetery.  We also returned fire with the guns that we had.

MR STEWART: Are you saying Mr Dlamini, that you used the guns that you had to repel that attack?

MR DLAMINI: Yes indeed.

MR STEWART: And did you personally fire your firearm?

MR DLAMINI: Yes I did shoot.

MR STEWART: And are you aware whether there were people who were injured or killed in that shooting?

MR DLAMINI: No I don't have any knowledge, but I know that I did shoot.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you shoot - did you aim when you shot, did you shoot with the intention of perhaps hitting a person, or did you just shoot in the air?

MR STEWART: I was directing my shot at the people, a lot of people.   Just how many people got injured, I don't have any idea, but what I know is that I did shoot towards the direction of the people there.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, were these people in the busses, or had they got out of the bus at the time of the shooting?

MR DLAMINI: They were on foot, and they were actually shooting the house where I was in.

MR STEWART: Now this procession then went past the house if I understand you, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, they passed and they went to the cemetery.  That is when I phoned Mudla Induna to come instantly because things are heavy here.

MR STEWART: Were you - did you expect that that funeral procession would have to come back past the house again?

MR DLAMINI: Yes it's like that.

MR STEWART: And did you expect that there might be another attack?

MR DLAMINI: Yes indeed.

MR STEWART: Now you've explained that when Mudla Induna and the others arrived, they were then involved in a, if you like, a counter-attack to the Gigi area, and you said that you were not involved in that counter-attack because you had to stay and guard Nwabe's house.  Do you stand by that evidence?

MR DLAMINI: Yes indeed.