Amnesty Hearings — Messina — 2000-07-05

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I'm not saying it's unfair, but looking at it, he has already indicated that Mrs Tshipapo was the Women's League of the PAC, so she wanted them to operate there, so the reason why I'm bringing ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just to give us the background.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I know where it goes now because he seems to be reluctant because he knows that he will be digging something which has already been forgotten, so there was indeed conflict within PAC regarding that, so it affected APLA in terms of operations because they were taken by some that you can't operated in this because you belong to that group, so that was the problem.  So that's why I'm requesting the Committee at least to be cautious when it is dealing with that aspect regarding the applicant.

ADV BOSMAN: Just one other aspect.  You were given R700 I understood, just correct me if I'm wrong.  You were given R700 to come back to the Northern Province, is that right?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: And then you ran out of fuel.  What happened to the R700?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: As I have mentioned that the person who was in charge of the finance was Moses Motapo.  We managed to leave Alexandra using public transport because the car was still in Pietersburg at the time and when we left Alexandra it was myself and Moses Motapo.  Ashley and Lebohang were already in Pietersburg.  Myself and Moses Motapo used public transport to get to Pietersburg.  We used the money because if you have to move from Alexandra to Pietersburg, it's quite a distance, that is how we spent the money and Moses had the money.

ADV BOSMAN: Are you telling us that you spent the whole R700 to get from Jo'burg to Pietersburg, two people?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: No, I am not implying that we spent all the money, but yes we did use the money and even used the money when we got to Pietersburg, the four of us, because we would go and reconnoitre places, we were not stationed at one place, so R700 is not much.

ADV BOSMAN: Now there's something else that confuses me a bit.  You kept on reconnoitring places and it would seem they were mostly banks, and yet you said that you were instructed by Moses to target the boers.  Could you perhaps explain that, or I did I misunderstand you?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: That doesn't meant that we were only checking with the banks, we managed to go to Ebenezer Dam, but our main aim was to get the money and reduce the strength of the white people in the Northern Province.  Our target was not the bank only, but we also aimed at reducing the strength of the white people, that is why we managed to go to Ebenezer and take the white man and kill him and go to Roedtan and kill people there.  So we did not have only one aim.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions you'd like to put?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, Mr Chairperson, a follow-up to the question by Adv Bosman.  If I understand you correctly, you had two aims or two purposes, to get money, number one and secondly to kill white people.  Did I understand you correctly?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: Yes, that's what I'm saying.

MR SIBANYONI: And with regard to the R700, my understanding is that that money was utilised during your travels, all of it, nothing was left, did I also understand you correctly there?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: If you were robbing money for the PAC, why was it not handed over to the coffers of the PAC, or of APLA?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: We couldn't take R700 to the coffers.  R700 is a very small amount, it's the one that we were supposed to use because we were staying at Morapapa's place and no one was employed there.  We had to buy food, fuel and travel.  R700 was not much to be handed over to the organisation.  Even if we managed to get a large amount of money at the bank, we wouldn't take it to the organisation.  The only person who was responsible for the money was the one who was going to take the money to the organisation.

MR SIBANYONI: And that was Moses?  Who was supposed to take the money to the organisation?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct, because he was our Commander.  I didn't have any powers to take the money to the High Command.

MR SIBANYONI: Was Moses accountable to any person you knew or any structure you knew, or was he totally using his discretion?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: No, he was not taking initiative, he was somebody else's subordinate, Letlapa Mphahlele was his High Command and even the firearms, he would go to Zimbabwe and come with ammunition and firearms, he is the person who was in contact with Letlapa Mphahlele most of the times.

MR SIBANYONI: You said you only had two firearms, two AK47, to whom were they allocated?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: They were given to Moses Motapo.

MR SIBANYONI: So all four of you were supposed to be using only two firearms?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: No.  I mentioned before that when we came to South Africa, we came through repatriation and we couldn't have firearms.  Moses Motapo came illegally and he didn't fly from the exile to here, that's why he managed to bring in firearms and he would go and get them from Zimbabwe.  The four of us had only two rifles and it was not necessary for us to own rifles, the four of us.  There was a person who was driving the car for us, Ashley, so it was not necessary for him to carry a firearm.  Myself and Moses Motapo had firearms and Lebohang was using a grenade and he would be with Ashley guarding the place with Ashley in the car.  The people who would go out for operation was only myself and Moses.

MR SIBANYONI: I understood that the reason that you people decided to rob the shop at Roedtan was to get petrol.  Now after attacking and shooting these people there, were you not surprised, or let me say, why didn't you look for money?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: When Morapapa got in and fired, the lights in the shop switched off and I don't know the reason.  There were servants who were working there, three of them, three women who were working there, but we did not do anything to them.  After firing the shots, the lights switched off and we didn't go look for money, we decided to get out of the shop.

MR SIBANYONI: No further questions, Mr Chairperson.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: When you went to Ebenezer Dam and captured Mr Pypers, was it your intention to rob him as well?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: The intention is that we were looking for a firearm from Mr Pypers but when we did not get the firearm, we decided not to leave him alive, we decided to take him along to kill him.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: Those were our intentions, to kill the whites, it was nothing uncommon.  We knew that our duty was to kill the whites.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you serious that it was your intention to overtake the whole of the Northern Province, the four of you?

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: Yes, I am serious because I know very well that bit by bit our number would increase as I have said that we were busy organising the other comrades under the PAC banner, trying to show them the way, trying to explain our objectives to them.  We had support and I knew that the number would go up and we would end up overpowering them in the Northern Province.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you, from what I've heard, appeared to be acquainted with the policies of PAC and APLA at that time.

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: Yes, at the time I knew what I was fighting for, I was not just fighting but I knew very well where I'm supposed to get to.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and we've heard that Moses bought the Sowetan newspaper, so he read newspapers as well.

ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: Yes, we would read newspapers.