Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MRS KOTZE: That is human tendency and it has nothing to do with a disorder and also I must say to you that I think when he reconstructed some of the circumstances to me, and I found gaps and I questioned him on those, he would try and give me as honest an answer as he could, because this was a man in severe distress.  This was a man who didn't have time and that, or he didn't have the emotion to sit and think that he had to be deceitful to me, because he didn't see me as an enemy at that time, but there is definitely a possibility that sitting here, in these circumstances where he is under threat perhaps, where he has to defend himself, that he would perhaps beautify his side of the story a little bit more, but with me, I think he did not, because there was no threat.

MR DONAN: At the time of your consultations with Mr Benzien, did he have a drinking problem?

MRS KOTZE: He admits to drinking too much.

MR DONAN: And does that contribute in any way to this disorder and in particular to the blocking out?

MRS KOTZE: It is a defence mechanism, in other words, it is a method to deal with your stress, if you drink a little bit more, then you don't feel the stress.

MR DONAN: So it is incidental to the blocking out, it has nothing to do with that?

MRS KOTZE: No, it has nothing to do with the blocking out.

MR DONAN: Thank you very much and I apologise again for making (indistinct)

MRS KOTZE: Apology accepted.

MR DONAN: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cook, is there any re-examination?

MR COOK: No re-examination, thank you.

MR COOK: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, I ought to have asked you this, do you have any questions to put to this witness?

MR BRINK: Just one.  Mrs Kotze, you have been here a long time, so I won't keep you long, but I wonder if you can help me.  We have heard a lot about the blocking out, this memory loss, be it involuntarily or voluntarily.  I presume one can get voluntarily memory loss, in the sense that you will the memory, the memory to go away.

MRS KOTZE: I am sorry, I don't understand your question fully about the voluntarily and the involuntarily.

MR BRINK: Well, can you have a voluntarily memory loss in the sense that you decide that you want to forget about an incident and you are able to convince yourself either that that incident never happened or it is blocked out of your mind?  Is that a possibility?

MRS KOTZE: That is a possibility.

MR BRINK: And whether it is an involuntarily or a voluntarily loss of memory, can it extend, if that is the right expression, to a situation where it is no longer in the person's mind and because it was such an awful deed, that he comes to deny its existence or it having been committed?

MRS KOTZE: It has been known to happen, yes.

MR BRINK: So that if Mr Benzien had performed a particularly cruel act, and it was put to him when he was giving evidence this is what you put to me, and I am referring specifically to the nasty business about the broomstick in the backside, he says I never did that and he looked shocked when that was suggested.  Does that tie in with what I have put to you?  The loss of memory, be it voluntary or involuntarily which causes him to, not only forget about it, but to deny it?

MRS KOTZE: You see it is difficult for me to comment on that, because he denies that.  He denied that to me as well, when we drove here this morning.  He does not think that he did that.
	It is difficult for me to comment and say he blocked it out, or he didn't block it out, because I don't know, from his point of view, he says it didn't happen.

MR BRINK: I am asking you generally though, as a psychologist, is that sort of thing possible that you will deny what you have done because you want to get it out of your mind?

MRS KOTZE: Yes, it is possible.

MR BRINK: Thank you very much, Mrs Kotze.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mrs Kotze, can you just indicate to us how many sessions did you actually have with Mr Benzien before you could make your findings?

MRS KOTZE: How many?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes?

MRS KOTZE: If I didn't put it in my report, it is difficult for me to tell you, but he saw me twice a week from January, I would say he had, I can check my records for you if you want to, my accounts, and that will give you some sort of indication if you want to, but I can't give you that information offhand, now.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think your report indicates that you had your first session on the 27th of February and that thereafter he visited you twice weekly and later ... (intervention)

MRS KOTZE: Yes, later on it became once a week, yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: But then he doesn't indicate when your findings were made, after how many sessions you have had with him and then you made your findings.

MRS KOTZE: No, it doesn't say here how many findings, but my date there, July, gives you an idea that it was approximately five months of therapy and evaluation and seeing him regularly and getting to know him well.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, I accept that in terms of your report, I accept that he must have been subjected to some kind of stress, traumatic stress and so on.  But I am not sure I understand as to what eventually triggered the disorder.	What triggered the disorder into coming into operation?

MRS KOTZE: I think it is his work stress, what he had to do everyday.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, but he has been doing the work since 19 .. whatever, 1988 and so on and I don't imagine that the process of blocking out was already in operation then and I don't understand you to be saying that.  It must have come into operation maybe a year or two years ago or so?

MRS KOTZE: It is very difficult for me to answer that question, you see, because I didn't see the man on an ongoing basis, so it is very difficult for me to say this was the moment.  And I think for him as well, because he doesn't remember so well, it is also not easy for him to say this is the moment that it started, because stress is something that develops gradually and people are very often not aware when they are suffering abnormal stress.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: When you saw him for the first time, he was already suffering from the PTSD?

MRS KOTZE: Yes, he had an incident where he, just before he saw me, where he had a very traumatic experience where he hallucinated, he heard voices, so he was under severe mental stress then.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mrs Kotze, but is it not so that according to your report, stress had already set in by 1994, that is when Mr Benzien's wife came to see you?

MRS KOTZE: Yes, it was.

SISI KHAMPEPE: (Indistinct)

MRS KOTZE: It was there already.

SISI KHAMPEPE: At that stage he was unable to handle stress situations?

MRS KOTZE: He brought his stress home and he wouldn't talk to his wife and she could see something was wrong.  She could see something was bothering him, but he would not tell her.  He told her, I cannot talk to you about what is bothering me.
	And then she came to see me, because she is very close to him and somewhat dependant, to an extent also to him and it disturbed her that he you know, he actually put his stress over onto her.  She became more stressed, she became severely depressed.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So wouldn't you say therefore that it is the hallucination which probably triggered the excessiveness in his stress in 1997?

MRS KOTZE: Yes, sorry, can you repeat that?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Wouldn't you say that the hallucination might have triggered the excessiveness of the stress in 1997?

MRS KOTZE: I don't understand your question, I am sorry, because I don't hear you very well.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I am saying that by 1994 he already had ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, it could assist if you could use the earphones.

MRS KOTZE: Yes, sorry, nobody told me that, sorry.  Yes, okay.