Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-29

MR PATEL: Mr Chairman, I wonder if we can get a five minute adjournment for personal reasons?

MR BLACK: Mr Chairman, may I take this opportunity, I apologise for being late this morning.  I had forgotten that we are starting earlier, I thought we are starting at nine o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let's be thankful that you are able to say so and it is only late in time.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Patel, tell me, for some reason during the course of this hearing, I have been under the impression there is 12 applicants, there are 13 mentioned on the papers, what is the correct position, am I wrong?

MR PATEL: I am afraid so Mr Chairman, there are 13.

CHAIRPERSON: And we have finished six now, correct?

MR PATEL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to finish number 10 by tonight.  It is not a target, we are going to finish it.

MR PATEL: Mr Chairman, you have my support in that.

CHAIRPERSON: Unless somebody wants to come back to Ermelo in a month's time.  Who is this - Mr ...

MR PATEL: It is Mr Silos Nkonyane.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkonyane, which language would you prefer to speak?

SILOS NKONYANE: I will testify in Zulu.

SILOS NKONYANE: (sworn states)

MR PATEL: Mr Patel, where were you born?

SILOS NKONYANE: I was born in Ermelo.

MR PATEL: And have you lived for all of your life in Ermelo?

SILOS NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: At the time of the commission of the offences for which you claim amnesty, at that time, what was your occupation?

SILOS NKONYANE: I was a Reverend.

MR PATEL: And what is your occupation at present?

SILOS NKONYANE: I am still a Reverend.

MR PATEL: At the time of the commission of the offences for which you claim amnesty, were you a member of any political organisation?

SILOS NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: Which organisation was this?

SILOS NKONYANE: I was the Chairman of the ANC Youth League, the Secretary of the ANC, I was a member of the Provincial Executive Youth League.

MR PATEL: You have heard the evidence of Mr John Mndebele with regard to the background statement.

SILOS NKONYANE: Yes, I heard.

MR PATEL: You will recall that he testified that it was yourself, himself, the previous witness Nicholas Zwane and Jabu Aron Mkhwanazi who met with Chris Hani.  Does that accord with your recollection?

SILOS NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: Who were the people that were present when you met with Mr Chris Hani in July 1990?

SILOS NKONYANE: It was Mr Mndebele, Mr Zwane and myself.

MR PATEL: Was Mr Jabu Aron Mkhwanazi not present?

SILOS NKONYANE: He was not present.

MR PATEL: In so far as the rest of the background statement is concerned, that is the background statement that I read and Mr Mndebele confirmed, do you confirm the contents of that background statement in so far as it relates to you?

SILOS NKONYANE: Yes, I confirm.

MR PATEL: Now, Annexure A1 and A2, which appears on pages 15 to 19 of Volume 1, do you have that document?

SILOS NKONYANE: Yes, I do.

MR PATEL: Could you tell the Honourable Committee who drafted this particular document, who compiled it?

SILOS NKONYANE: This document was compiled by myself with the assistance of the others.  The others who are also implicated, they were assisting with dates.

MR PATEL: Yes.  Can you tell the Committee, when this document was compiled?

SILOS NKONYANE: It was compiled before the first commission, first Truth Commission, the one that was postponed, the hearing that was postponed.  This document was compiled this year, in 1998 before the first hearing.

MR PATEL: According to the schedule which appears on page 20 of Volume 1 of the documents, you claim amnesty for the same offences as Mr Mndebele and the previous applicant, Nicholas Zwane, is that correct?

SILOS NKONYANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PATEL: What was your motivation for perpetrating these offences?

SILOS NKONYANE: There was violence in our community, because of that violence, it became evident that we had to devise some means to operate as to ensure that we do have peace in our community.
	That is why this took place.

MR PATEL: Now, as I understand the evidence that has been led thus far, the Special Committee which consisted of yourself, Mr Mkhwanazi, Mr Mndebele and Mr Zwane gave two specific instructions with regard to assassinations, namely one for Mr Jwi Zwane and one for Mr Chris Ngwenya.  Do you confirm that evidence?

SILOS NKONYANE: Yes, I confirm that.

MR PATEL: Do you also confirm the general instruction which is fully set out on page 13 of Volume 1 namely that there was an implied instruction to Mr Gushu that he was to recruit assistance from SDU's in the local community and also that he was to obtain arms and ammunition and to finance these operations, from whatever source possible, including armed robberies?

SILOS NKONYANE: Yes, I do confirm that.

MR PATEL: Did you know that Mr Mkhwanazi was to instruct Mr Gushu?

SILOS NKONYANE: No, I didn't know.

MR PATEL: And did you know Mr Gushu himself?

SILOS NKONYANE: Yes, I knew him as a comrade who used to attend the meetings of the Youth League and I used to know him as a member of the community.

MR PATEL: Did you know Mr Chris Ngwenya and Mr Jwi Zwane?

SILOS NKONYANE: Yes, Mr Chris Ngwenya and Mr Jwi Zwane, I knew them.

MR PATEL: Do you know whether they had belonged to any political party?

SILOS NKONYANE: Yes, I knew that they were Black Cat members and they were also members of Inkatha.

MR PATEL: As an ANC member, how did you view the IFP or the Inkatha members and the Black Cats?

SILOS NKONYANE: I regarded them as enemies of ANC, as they were people who were attacking the members of the ANC and they were also victimising the community.

MR PATEL: In committing these offences for which you claim amnesty, did you act out of any personal - for personal gain or malice?

SILOS NKONYANE: No.  There was nothing to gain, there was nothing to benefit.

MR PATEL: In respect of the offences for which you claim amnesty, were you prosecuted?

SILOS NKONYANE: No.

MR PATEL: Mr Jwi Zwane, did you know him personally?

SILOS NKONYANE: Yes.

MR PATEL: Are you aware as to whether he had a business or not?

SILOS NKONYANE: No, he never had any business, he was just an ordinary person.

MR PATEL: Mr Jwi Zwane and Mr Chris Ngwenya, were they - do you have personal knowledge as to what role they played as Black Cat members?

SILOS NKONYANE: I knew them as leaders of Black Cats who were actually fighting the members of the ANC and the community.

MR PATEL: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.

MR PATEL: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp?

MR KEMP: I have no questions Mr Chairman.

MR KEMP: .

MS VAN DER WALT: Sir, you as a member of this Committee, did you have any direct instruction, did you give any direct instruction to Mr Gushu to do anything in Piet Retief?

SILOS NKONYANE: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know Mr Hleza?

SILOS NKONYANE: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: I have no further questions.

MS VAN DER WALT: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Just to make it clear that ...

CHAIRPERSON: I ran out of luck.

MR HATTINGH: Just to make it clear, at no stage any suggestion was made that Jwi Zwane was running his own business.  The suggestion made was that Jwi Zwane was assisting his brother Elias Zwane with his business.  Do you know of this?

SILOS NKONYANE: Can you please repeat your question?

MR HATTINGH: At no stage during this hearing was the allegation made that Jwi Zwane had his own business.  However, it is alleged by the brother of Jwi Zwane, namely Elias Zwane, that Jwi Zwane in fact worked with him, Elias, in the business that Elias had.

SILOS NKONYANE: I heard that here in this hearing.

MR HATTINGH: Did you know Jwi Zwane and in what capacity?