Human Rights Violation Hearings — Benoni — 1997-02-05

THOMAS MANTHATA: Where he was working he was already a member of a union?

UNKNOWN: No, he was not.

THOMAS MANTHATA: The policeman that was killed, do I get it right, how was he regarded in the township?

UNKNOWN: If my memory serves me correct, I think there was something  that this policeman did, until they decided to kill him.   It looks as if he killed one of the children in the location.  There was a rumour like that.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Besides Lucas being a member of the workers he was never seem to be a community leader?

UNKNOWN: He was very much known in the location but not a community leader.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And from his pursue of popularity had he ever expressed strong feelings about the killing of that child by this policeman, and therefore suspected to have been party to those who killed the police?

UNKNOWN: No, he was called by one of the guys who was standing by and said Lucas, run away, because the police are approaching and he ran away.   And then the police arrested the very guy who was shouting and screaming at Lucas to run away.

THOMAS MANTHATA: So the matter was never taken up by any lawyer?  You have not instructed any lawyer as the family?

UNKNOWN: No, we did not have any lawyer or family advocate then.

THOMAS MANTHATA: What I mean is that, perhaps the organisations that were already functioning around they knew of the human right lawyers around, such that they could have instructed him to look into the whole tragic situation of Lucas.

UNKNOWN: No.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Ok, let me hold it there.  Thank you.

MR LEWIN: Fazel?

DR RANDERA: Ladies, I just want to come back to the medical treatment that your son and brother respectively, received.    I think you said earlier on that, after he was dragged by the Hippo, is seems like the police or people who were in the Hippo left him for dead.

UNKNOWN: Yes.   That day he was coming from signing at the Charge Office and they got hold of him then and the Casper dragged him until they left nearby a disused beer garden and fortunately the taxi driver saw what was happening and after the Hippo left the area, and they rushed to that scene and when they got there they found out that this is a person.   And they tried to enlist help to this person who was dumped there.
 The person who helped the most did not want us to know him and his whereabouts to date.   How we discovered this, is because one of the taxi drivers as I worked in Boksburg, was talking about this and was saying he was wondering where, is that guy who was dumped by the Hippo, what kind of a person and what had he done?

DR RANDERA: I want to actually come to the hospital, your daughter said that when she went to the Boksburg and Benoni Hospital somebody said to her that, well first of all, he was not given any treatment, right?   He was not given any treatment and when you asked they told you to take him away if you want to.  Now was it a doctor or a nurse or both people who told you this?

UNKNOWN: The nurse I got, whom I spoke to said the hospital was so full, perhaps we should take the patient with and treat him at home, and as the hospital was fully packed there was no space for him.  So that is how we took him.

DR RANDERA: And he never suffered from epilepsy before this incident?

UNKNOWN: No.   (Tape ends.)

MR LEWIN: ..... and who was actually charged?

UNKNOWN: I do not remember well, the Magistrate who was in charge of that case.  We started attending the case in 1991 in Pretoria, no I am mistaken, it was 1989.   I do not quite remember, though people were involved there, in that case, but the lawyer was Ayob.

MR LEWIN: Who was he actually defending there, who was being charged?

UNKNOWN: He was the person being charged, because, and Alfred.   They were suspecting that they had a gun that they were looking for.

MR LEWIN: I would just like to thank you for coming today to tell this story, which highlights again the way in which people in authority used unnecessary force, unnecessary viciousness, unnecessary cruelty in the way that day to day they treated people.   This has so often been the story that we have heard, where people were caused much pain, much suffering, and as in your case, in the case of your family member, someone actually succumbing to the final injury of dying as a result of the treatment that they have received.
 It is very difficult to understand this, but I think if it is any comfort to you, you should feel that what you have done in coming forward to tell this story is, as we have said before, to try and ensure that in future those with the same authority, the same power never again use it in the way that we have seen.   So that what you are doing is contributing to, what we hope, would be a much better society.
 And we would like to thank you both very much for coming.  We will follow up where we can through the names that you have given, through court cases that you have given, to discover whether there is any further information that we can unearth to be able to tell you.
 Thank you very much for coming today.