Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-10

CHAIRPERSON: ... voluntarily, you have not been subpoenaed by the Commission this time around and we do want to place on record that you would like to be as helpful as you can to the Commission in trying to unravel the events that happened in the informal settlements during 1986, so we do thank you very much for coming today.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Ma'am.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you very much Glenda, Chairperson and I greet you Mr Knipe.  We have the documents, do you want to read your testimony into the record?

UNKNOWN: If the Commission likes, I would read it out.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to clarity that Mr Knipe was invited by the Commission to assist us in an aspect of the investigation.  Investigators invited him to come, he has not been subpoenaed.  I would like to state that for the record.  Thank you Mr Knipe.

UNKNOWN: Before I read my statement, I would just like to bring your attention to paragraph 12 and respectfully ask that I do not read out paragraph 12.  I believe that is hearsay evidence and that goes against the tenants of my belief as regards fair play.
 I do not think that it is fair that I give evidence which was given to me by someone else, I had no personal knowledge of the incident described in paragraph 12.  If that would meet with the Commission's approval.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: That is fine, but for the rest of the document, you would like it to stand as the records which you will read.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I believe the information contained in paragraph 12 might be of value to the Commission, but it is not that I have of personal knowledge.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Okay, thank you,  thank you so much.

UNKNOWN: If I may continue.  Leonard Knipe, I am a Director in the South African Police Service, I am the Provincial Commander of the serious violent crimes component of the Western Cape.
 I am based at the Provincial Head Office of the Detective service in Bellville.  On Thursday, the 05-06-1997 I was approached by Miss Gould, an investigator of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and requested to give evidence at a special hearing of the Commission of the 10-06-1997.
 I have been requested to give evidence concerning an arrest in 1986 on a charge of sedition against the community leader and parliamentary member of the National Party, Mr Johnson Ngxobongwana.
 The quest to appear is rather short and due to the time constraints I had been unable to trace documents, case dockets which may still be available and if traced, would have placed me in a better position to give accurate evidence.
 The evidence which I am able to give is from recall and after discussions with Captain Jooste of the Murder and Robbery Unit on Friday, the 06-06-1997.  Captain Jooste then a Warrant Officer, served with me for a short period at Guguletu.  I was assigned to Guguletu to investigate the murders, mostly necklace murders and other violence that occurred in Guguletu during 1986.
 Of the violence that occurred was against the Security Forces and institutions of the State while the other violence was intersectorial violence against opposing groups, each with different political agendas.
 I was transferred to Guguletu during June, that would have been towards the end of June, late June 1986 and took over command of a task team assigned to investigate the violence from Captain Loocke.
 The task team was under resourced and under-staffed, nevertheless we endeavoured to solve the murders and other acts of violence which were reported.  It appeared and later became clear that many of the murders that we were dealing with, resulted after the victims had been tried at people's courts which were being practised by both the opposing parties in interfactional violence.
 As a strategy we established when these people's courts were held and would then raid these courts and effect arrests.  Arrestees were charged with sedition and other crimes which we were able to substantiate.
 It was a strategy which worked and helped stabilise the township.  Two young men Vioani Geobase and Lukasine Veneni were brutally murdered during July in 1986.
 The murders were investigated by the task team under cover of Guguletu CR/12/7/96.  From the investigations conducted in this case, it was determined that prior to their deaths, they had been in the company of two young ladies.
 These ladies were traced and with the assistance on the 21-07-1986 a shack in Crossroads was raided.   This shack contained cells and a court room and it was obviously used as a people's court.
 Exhibits such as court books, canes, tyres and the like was seized.  According to information and evidence at our disposal, the local community leader of Crossroads the so-called Mayor of Crossroads Johnson Ngxobongwana was in charge of the people's court.
 I remember leaving the court house and proceeded to Johnson's house.  On arrival at his house, we came upon two men who were building a wall around Ngxobongwana's house.  They were being guarded by Ngxobongwana's henchmen.
 It transpired that the two had been sentenced by the people's court and that they had been sentenced to hard labour at Ngxobongwana's house.  I remember entering Ngxobongwana's house and arresting him.
 When arresting him, I found him in possession of a star, 9 mm pistol bearing military markings.  Ngxobongwana was not in possession of a licence for the firearm, and he was unable to produce any authorization to possess the firearm.
 A case of sedition and unlawful possession of a firearm was registered against Ngxobongwana.  I must emphasise  that I was in overall command of the task team, that I did not personally investigate dockets.  Case dockets were assigned to members under my authority.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Sorry, excuse me, just once again, it is a request that we made to most witnesses who come here to please slow down.