Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-22

MR MEIRING: "Accused number 1 says that the group went to accused number 8's house and 9 people were present. That means the 9 original accused. And we drank according to the statement that accused 1 gave to the Police. Accused number 1 asked accused number 6: "Do you think our men have enough courage?" And he brought a bottle of whisky. And the precise words were not confirmed by accused number 1 but he can remember that accused number 9 said something of courage.

MR BRINK: Next sentence?

MR MEIRING: "And afterwards we drove to the house or plot of accused number 6 where we had more drink and (...intervention)

MR BRINK: You drank brandy and whisky?

MR MEIRING: I drank whisky.

MR BRINK: And the others?

MR MEIRING: Well we have to ask them themselves, I cannot answer for them.

MR BRINK: You did not see?

MR MEIRING: No I did not see.

MR BRINK: You sit together and drink?

MR MEIRING: No we did not sit together. I was alone in the kitchen when I drank the whisky at Mr Visser's house.

MR BRINK: This was a bottle of whisky and a bottle of brandy?

MR MEIRING: No at Mr Visser's house we had a bottle whisky and this is the only place where I had a drink.

MR BRINK: Now if General Oelofse gives evidence in these hearings denying that any order was given. What would you say to that?

MR MEIRING: I cannot comment on that. I received my instructions from Deon Martin and Mr Kloppers.

MR BRINK: I understand. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry while you are still on page 26, the question that was drawn to your attention. You people drank on 2 occasions at the house of number 8 and also at the place of number 6. Do you see that?

MR MEIRING: I see it Chairperson. Personally I only had a drink at Mr Visser's house.

CHAIRPERSON: That is number 8?

MR MEIRING: Yes that is right.

UNKNOWN: Excuse me. The medical people are not here. And we just want to get Mr Kloppers some oxygen. Okay here he comes right now.

CHAIRPERSON: Do we need to adjourn?

UNKNOWN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes it may be that you personally did not drink again at the house of number 6 but did other people drink there? As number 1 has reported to have said?

MR MEIRING: I do not know Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were with them? Would you not have seen it if it happened.

MR MEIRING: I was not in the house with them. I stayed at the vehicle outside.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you now saying that it is possible they might have taken some liquor but that you might not have seen that?

MR MEIRING: Yes. I did not see them.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are not able to disagree with what number 1 is supposing to be saying here?

MR MEIRING: I cannot deny it and I cannot confirm it either.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you through Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman.

UNKNOWN: Can we adjourn for a moment so we can make sure?

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn for a few minutes. Please call us as soon as the time is right.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CAREL HENDRIK MEIRING: (s.u.o.)

MR BRINK: Mr Meiring the evidence which I propose to lead from some of the victims of this attack will be to the effect that none of the occupants of those vehicles admitted to being ANC supporters or members. They were merely accused of being members or supporters of the ANC and then the shooting started. What do you say to that?

MR MEIRING: I do not know what the people told Martin and Kloppers. I was not part of the questioning.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not there when they admitted that they were members of the ANC?

MR MEIRING: No I was not with the persons who did the questioning. I was about 10 metres away from there, behind the Sentra.

CHAIRPERSON: So you never heard them admitting that they were members of the ANC?

MR MEIRING: No I did not hear them.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Meiring you had said that you were the training officer?

MR MEIRING: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: The document that was marked as Exhibit A, the phase 1 document, can you tell us what the status of the document is? In other words did you use this document and what did you use it for and how did you see?

MR MEIRING: Mr Chairperson I did not use this document in the training. I just gave basic training like drilling, shooting exercises.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you ever possess the document?

MR MEIRING: Yes I read through the document. I wrote an exam about it but I cannot remember what was in here.

ADV BOSMAN: How did you see this document? As what type of document did you see it? Just as examination material?

MR MEIRING: Yes. Much of the information like the information of guerilla tactics I had knowledge of this. I worked with it every day in the force, in the army. And I just studied it further for examinations.

ADV BOSMAN: And you testified also what rumours that went around as you used the expression naughty children, that you just acted as naughty children and you did not receive instruction. Could you point out where these rumours came from? How did you hear about these rumours?

MR MEIRING: Yes these rumours came from people from outside. If I say outside, it is people outside prison. Because at that stage we were in detention and this the message that came from outside.

ADV BOSMAN: If you talk about people outside the prison - persons of a particular group, persons of your own group?

MR MEIRING: This came from people inside the organisation who said that we acted like naughty children.

ADV BOSMAN: Would it not upset you that people in your own organisation would say so?

MR MEIRING: Yes we were upset to hear that.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you discuss this?

MR MEIRING: Yes we discussed it. And this is why Commandant Kloppers asked Mr Terreblanche and asked him: "These are the rumours going around and could you set it right for us."

ADV BOSMAN: Amongst each other did you speculate why people would say these things? Because they must have had reason to say it?

MR MEIRING: Yes we discussed it amongst each other but we could not get clarity over why these people said so.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR MALAN: Any of your co-accused, did you see them after the incident and before you were arrested?

MR MEIRING: Not before we were arrested. We did not meet with each other.

MR MALAN: You do not have a social relationship, you not friends?

MR MEIRING: I was not with the organisation very long to be close friends with any of them.

MR MALAN: And the equipment you kept it?

MR MEIRING: Yes.

MR MALAN: And you have testified, I want to call it a pamphlet whatever was referred to but, this act would put the National Party into chaos. How did you see this happening that the government of the day would be or the government of National Unity would be in chaos?

MR MEIRING: I saw it in the light of all the acts were committed country wide at that stage the elections would be disrupted so much that it could not proceed. And the government would run around trying to let it happen.

MR MALAN: And these bombs that you referred to, they exploded before and after this act?

MR MEIRING: That is right.

MR MALAN: Not just after your act?

MR MEIRING: I cannot remember precisely if it is before or afterwards. But I know after we were arrested there were bomb explosions.

MR MALAN: And you say this is all by the AWB?

MR MEIRING: Yes these persons were with us in prison.

MR MALAN: Did you know at that stage, before you were caught that the AWB planted some of these bombs?

MR MEIRING: No I did not.

ADV SIGODI: I will put my questions to you in english you can answer in afrikaans. I just want to know why did you choose that particular crossing, the Radora crossing? Why particularly that place?

MR MEIRING: I did choose the location for the roadblock. It was decided on by Kloppers and Deon Martin.

ADV SIGODI: Do you why they choose it, particularly that particular crossing?

MR MEIRING: I do not know. I would not be able to tell you.