Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

COUNSEL: And Chappie Kloppers, in his testimony mentioned that there were five people of Soweto, from the Soweto branch. In other words, it is possible that one of the six people who went to Marble Hall might have been not present, would you deny that?

MR DE KOCK: No I would have to revert to the fact that you have.

COUNSEL: Thank you Madame Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr ...(indistinct)

COUNSEL: I have somewhat belatedly thought of a question, may I ask one?

UNKNOWN: One only.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson. My client, Jerry Richardson cannot locate two of the bodies of his victims, those being Lolo  and Sibuniso Shabalala, you wouldn't have any information as to where those two bodies are?

MR DE KOCK: No, unfortunately not because one would like to find them, not only for prosecution but also to calm things down. The information I had, as recorded formally was that there were a place where four people were buried. I think the impression was that they were close to each other. But I don't know if that's the right group.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Hugo.

MR HUGO: One question.  Mr de Kock, did Mr Mabota have any sensitive information about yourself or Vlakplaas which could have been prejudicial to you yourself and Vlakplaas had he divulged this information to Mrs Mandela?

MR DE KOCK: No Chair because at the time he had already left. The long time that he was already gone, he could have divulged it already.

MR HUGO: But was he ever present in any sensitive operation where misdemeanours were committed by Vlakplaas members?

MR DE KOCK: No Sir, if there was sensitivity, it was in Soweto not at Vlakplaas.

MR HUGO: No further questions.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  Mr de Kock you may stand down.  Thank you for giving evidence today.   We will of course await the statements relating to the question of the other request for assistance that you received, as well as the name of the witness who appeared here yesterday who, as you claimed, falls into a category of people who enjoyed participating in assault and torture. Thank you, you may stand down.

MR DE KOCK: Thank you very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED

UNKNOWN: Mrs Chair, may I just point out that in my client's amnesty application of Colonel Potgieter you will find
the other incident that Colonel de Kock has referred to and has made mention of. It is to be found in the amnesty application of my client.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr du Plessis. Before I call the nest witness could I just mention that someone has lost a set of keys which is held in a grey holder. If anyone has found this set, could you please pass that on to one of our staff members. I'd like to call Mr Pretorius to the witness stand please.

MR VALLY: Madame Chair, we had Mr Bosman giving evidence yesterday, we did ask him to return today. I think time phrases are such that we may not be able to return to him maybe it would be appropriate to excuse him. That's only Mr Bosman, we still have to see Mr Coetzee and Mr Nienaber later.

UNKNOWN: I will excuse Mr Bosman and we'll have to make arrangements for his evidence in respect of certain matters to be taken perhaps in a Section 29. But Mr Bosman is excused.