Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-14

INTERPRETER: The applicant would like to explain the part that the interpreter said she did not hear, when Mr Prior said it was alright, the question had been answered.

UNKNOWN: He wanted me to repeat the last portion.  I think he's answered my question, I was happy with the reply unless the Committee wants that last portion.  He gave a long answer and I was happy with that answer.  I have no further questions.
	May I ask the Committee an opportunity, just ask Mrs Jerling who is present or the family whether she has any questions of the applicant?  She indicates none, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR

MS GCABASHE: And just to finish off that point to satisfy you Mr Madasi.  As a Committee certainly the answer was sufficient so there's nothing that we have missed.  Having said that this ...[indistinct] your future, there's nothing that ...[indistinct] by the interpreter having missed that little bit, if you are happy with that.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I have nothing more to say but there is something that I would like to say before the TRC if the Chairperson would give me a moment please.

CHAIRPERSON: I was asking you attorney who appears for you if he wanted to ask you any questions he can do.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, there's no re-examination except Mr Chairman I think the applicant would like to be given an opportunity to say something to the Committee.  I have no re-examination.  If he can just be given that opportunity?
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Thank you very much.  Just to use this moment given to me by the TRC, I am thankful.  First of all, I want to reiterate as a member of APLA and as a member of PAC and a person who is in prison because of what we were fighting for, for the people of AZANIA, it is painful that we still continue to feel this pain.  I know that the decision is taken wherever.
	Secondly, the Africans that are in jail have a lot of problems, I think that the TRC should show and reveal that what is going on is not right.  We heard here of delays of people or prisoners being taken from one prison to another.  The people that we have to deal with under correctional services are hard to deal with ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker slow down please.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: The problem that we experience under the Department of Correctional Services is unspeakable, it is painful.  Even if people will say we are gangsters and hooligans please, you must know that we are soldiers.  We are not mercenaries, we are soldiers for the people.  We stood for the people.  How is it that up to this day not a single APLA combatant has received results for amnesty whether it is passed or failed.  It is extremely frustrating.  I understand the position of victims.
	The PAC organisation should have their own programme between themselves and the victims, that is up to the PAC.  As members of PAC, it's not that we are not prepared to reconcile but the relationship between the so-called perpetrators and the victims, that is up to the PAC.  Please, the PAC must do something.  Tell us whether we are staying in jail or we are getting out of jail.
	We do not have a political status in prison, you must not be under that impression.  We are treated as common criminals in prisons.  I don't want to delve in that because we are going to identify the word criminal differently.  We are under a lot of pain.  We should help each other in facing this problem, in solving it.  If you have a reason why you are keeping APLA members in jail, perhaps you've got a reason, perhaps you can divulge or let us know what the reasons behind are.  It's been a long time, I hope the TRC has heard me.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: There are various reason why there are delays in hearings and decisions but one the major ones is the lack of response from the PAC.  And you may have heard today when we were trying with the help of attorneys, to arrange that senior PAC officials appear and give evidence confirming what the soldiers of the APLA did and we are having great difficulty in getting the assistance of those people to come and tell us.
	And if you can persuade your leaders to come forward and assist, it will make matters very much easier.  I think your attorney is fully aware of the problems we are having getting such information, such confirmation.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, may I also just respond from my side regarding the prison services.  Obviously I cannot comment on what happens outside these walls, what happens in prison but certainly I must place on record that the South African Prison Services have gone out of their way to accommodate the very many applicants who were in jail all over the country, to get them to East London, to get them here timeously, to get them here under very difficult circumstances to enable them to consult with the attorneys.
	I find Mr Madasi's statements disturbing in the following sense, that if there was any improper conduct I will certainly take it up with the prison authorities.  I understand that he was brought to East London on the 6th of the 7th of April so I don't know, when he refers to being moved around, whether he's referring to himself or somebody else, but certainly that was my information.  And he has been in East London since at least the 6th of April, today being the 14th.  So if the suggestion is that the prison services are moving them around to make consultation difficult, then I will most certainly take it up at the highest level.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, just before - I want just to add to what has been said by Mr Prior.  In fact Mr Prior, I don't he is referring to them being moved for the hearings of the TRC.   I'm sure he's just mentioning general conditions under which they are staying in prison, when or where they are kept or anywhere, not necessarily regarding the process of what is happening here in East London.
	Mr Chairman, I think also - let me apologise, I was supposed to come today about whether Mr Leklapa will be available.  Mr Chairman, over the weekend, as I indicated, I communicated with him and he told me that he has no problem with that though he does not know whether personally he has to come but he is still going to contact the members of the high command as he representing them.   
	He gave me an undertaking that even if it is not himself, it's his deputy and other members, they will definitely come before the Committee.  As such we have agreed that we will meet in Aliwal North during the hearings in Aliwal North.  So I will give a definite answer in Aliwal North Mr Chairman.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Good, because as you know it's very important to us that we have this information before us.  It would speed up the processes enormously as I think you are fully aware.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I am fully aware of that, thank you.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, may I ask whether we are going to be sitting a little later.  We have lot a lot of time today but obviously I'm in the Committee's hands.  We have the victims that are from Fort Beaufort but I understand that they are prepared to go back and then drive back tomorrow morning and I'm confident that is start at say 9 o'clock, I think we'd finish the evidence at least.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting we should not continue now?

UNKNOWN: I'm in your hands Mr Chairman.  I understand from Mr Mthembu that in any event he would ask for an indulgence.  Obviously there is a lot of information that has come out that he'd like to canvass with Mr Diamoneng before he leads his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Well who would be the next witness?

UNKNOWN: It would be him.

CHAIRPERSON: Him, he would be the next witness?

UNKNOWN: Yes, he would be the next witness.