Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-27

MR BERGER: And when you say "they", are you referring to the police and the army?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And Iscor security?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I don't know whether they were present.

MR BERGER: And when did you attend a meeting which was addressed by Themba Khosa, did you attend a meeting addressed by Themba Khosa?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: The one meeting that I know, even though I cannot recall the date, that was the day on which the police did not allow us out of the hostel, that was the meeting, that is when - that was the day when he came along with the police, that's the meeting that I can remember.

CHAIRPERSON: But would that have been the first day during which you couldn't go to work because the police wouldn't allow you to leave the hostel?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.   The meeting was held, I'm not sure quite when, it could have been Friday or Saturday, I'm not quite sure.

MR BERGER: And that was the meeting where, in the presence of the police, Themba Khosa said you must help the police?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: But you didn't attend the meeting on the Thursday, the one on the 18th, that was addressed by Themba Khosa?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No, I was not present.

MR BERGER: And so you wouldn't be able to dispute it if I put it to you that at that meeting on the Thursday, Themba  Khosa instructed the hostel residents to burn all the evidence which linked them to the massacre, you can't dispute that, can you?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I would not admit, I would not dispute that either, I don't know.

MR BERGER: You don't know who gave the order to burn the goods looted from Boipatong and the evidence which linked you to the attack, am I right?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: You don't know?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I don't know.

MR BERGER: You say you don't know Andries Matanzima Masinga?

MR BERGER: No, I don't know him.

MR BERGER: Never heard about him?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: Never heard about an ANC spy who infiltrated the hostel with plans to blow it up, never heard about such a person?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I only heard about that when I was at home.

MR BERGER: In Kwa-Natal?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And then you came back to the hostel?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And did you ask questions about him?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I did not.

MR BERGER: Why not, didn't you want to know if he's still there?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I heard that he was allowed to leave.

MR BERGER: To leave or to live?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I was told that he was leaved, he left.

MR BERGER: You were told that when you returned to the hostel?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: So you did ask about him?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I did not.

MR BERGER: Who told you about him?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Dlamini told me that there is one person who came, but he was later released.

MR BERGER: Richard Dlamini?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR BERGER: And did he tell you the name of this person?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: Did you ask the name of the person?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No, I did not.   I only heard about the name here.

MR BERGER: Did you hear that this person had been taken to Ulundi?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No, I did not hear about that.

MR BERGER: That he had been paraded before the leadership at Ulundi?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: That he had been brought back to the hostel?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: And that he had been allowed to live in the hostel?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I did not hear anything about that, I only heard that he came to the hostel, I know nothing about the Ulundi incident.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Mr Mbatha, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.   Mr Malindi, do you have any questions?

MR MALINDI: No questions, chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRETORIUS

MR STRYDOM: Mr Mbatha, do you know the attorney Koos van der Merwe?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Van der Merwe?

MR STRYDOM: Do you know an attorney that came to the Khayelitsha Hostel at a certain time?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, I think I remember.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember when that was?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I do not remember quite well, but I think it could have been 1997 if I'm not mistaken.

MR STRYDOM: You remember a meeting that was held in connection with the possibility of amnesty applications, at the Khayelitsha Hostel?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: No.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, perhaps my learned friend could lead a little bit less.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't have a problem with this kind of question, because he's re-examining the witness.   Yes, go ahead.

MR STRYDOM: On the occasion you saw the attorney at Khayelitsha Hostel, do you remember what was discussed?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: The one who came, the one that I know, came to inform us that we would require lawyers or attorneys to represent us for our appeal, and that happened later, I was at home.

MR STRYDOM: Did you discuss the possibility of an amnesty application with your co-accused at that stage, co-convicted accused?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, I did.

MR STRYDOM: During these discussions, were a decision made in this regard?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: They said they had discussed, I was the only one who was left out because I was at home.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember at the trial a witness that gave evidence with the name of Richard Msebe?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I do not remember very well.

MR STRYDOM: When you were cross-examined, you stated that the house you went into where you stabbed the woman and where Daniel Mabota shot the two people in the wardrobe, there were more people than just yourself and Mabota, is that right?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes, that's right.

MR STRYDOM: In that house, can you estimate, apart from the two of you, how many other attackers there could have been?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: There were many of them, because they continued breaking windows.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember evidence being led, although you can't remember the person who gave that evidence, that at this house, 625 Bapele Street, he saw at least three attackers?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: I do not remember.

MR STRYDOM: The house you went into, where you stabbed the woman, were the lights on or was it dark?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: It was dark.

MR STRYDOM: I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS PRETORIUS

MR DA SILVA: Mr Mbatha, will you please look at Exhibit M1, being the aerial photograph of Boipatong and its vicinity.   I see you've got the photograph in front of you.   If you look on the left-hand side, above the letter D, there's a road that runs across the photograph to above the letter M on the right-hand side, do you see that road?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: That is Frikkie Meyer Boulevard, the road that separates Boipatong from the Kwamadala Hostel.

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: You'll see on that road there's a point marked H, that is where the footbridge is where the group crossed after the attack on the way to Kmadala.   Do you agree with that?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Now if you look at point C, that's where the Trek Garage is, and you'll see, running in an easterly direction there's a road, that's Nobel Boulevard, it's the area which separates Boipatong and the factories, do you agree with that?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: And then if you look on the top of that photograph, do you see there's a point marked F?  If you look on the top of the photograph, do you see a point marked F?

PAULOS MCIKELENI MBATHA: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: Do you agree that that is where Cape Gate is?