Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-01

MS THABETE: Thank you Madame Chair, I'll do my best.  Mr Ndlangamandla, I'll start with the first sentence, you say they attacked my grandfather and they shot him.  In your evidence you have stated that you were a group of IFP people and you were fighting.  It was a war situation.  Can you then explain why in this sentence looks like there were people who were just attacking your grandfather and not a group of IFP members?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I don't understand very well, maybe if you can rephrase your question so that I understand it well.

CHAIRPERSON: We can help you.  What she's trying to ask you is that the way you've explained in your application it's different from the way you've just explained to us, you didn't mention that it's similar.

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: The way I've put it on my application ...[intervention]

MS THABETE: Can I expand as well maybe in Zulu?  I just want to know that in want sentence of this paragraph, the way you put your statement here you aren't clarifying that ANC came and attacked your grandfather.  The way you've put in your statement here you said "they came and they attacked my grandfather" but now you are saying to us, we as a group, members of IFP, we came out, we went to attack ANC.  I didn't say that we left.  What I can remember is that you asked me a question and the question was "did we see them coming?"  How come you didn't clarify this in your application that ANC came and attacked us.  You said ANC came and attacked your grandfather.

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I don't see any difference in this, I don't see this as a problem because this happened maybe the way I put it didn't come out clearly.

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we move on Ms Thabete to the next sentence?

MS THABETE: Before I do Madame Chair I just want to put it to the witness or maybe later on to ask for his comment that I don't understand what you are saying that if people attack you as a group you would say "they attacked us and my grandfather was shot" instead of saying they attacked my grandfather.  I don't understand when you're saying you don't see the difference there.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, surely that should be part of your argument?  You can't expect him to do further than what he has already done?  He's given his explanation, you will take it up when you address us.

MS THABETE: Thank you Madame Chair, I'm indebted.
	Your second sentence reads:
"Me, I was behind the house of him and watching what they were doing or what they are doing, all these things."
I'm still asking you a question.  My question to you is you've explained to the Committee Members that it was an open ground that you were fighting on, there were no houses or structures so can you explain now why you said you were behind your grandfather's house when he was attacked and today you've said that you were three - two people separated you and you were a straight line, can you explain that contradiction to me?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: When I made this statement it was when I arrived in prison.  I think this was my first statement and I was still scared, I was still scared when I made the statement but the truth is what I'm telling you today.  This I would like the Committee to excuse me because I wasn't in my right senses when I made this statement.

UNKNOWN: May I just enquire of whom were you scared?  Of whom were you scared when you made this statement?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: When I said I was scared I don't mean that I was scared of someone but I was scared of the place where I was, I was shaking and I wasn't in my right mind when I made the application.  The real application is the second one, the proper statement, the one that I had.  This one I made when I arrived in prison.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.

UNKNOWN: Just while we're on this point, you said earlier in your evidence this morning or before we adjourned that your grandfather was shot at his home, it was your evidence previously.  Do you remember that?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: No I don't remember.

UNKNOWN: I see so how does not being in your right mind effect this version that you've given here, how does this change anything?  Do you understand what I'm asking you?  I'm asking you if what you say here is a lie how would telling it have helped you?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: What I'm trying to explain here is that inside prison or when I first came to prison I was still young and I was sent to maximum prison in 1994 and too many things occurred there and I wasn't in my right senses because of the situation in prison.

UNKNOWN: You see you made this two years later in 1996, that's the date you made this, you signed this document and filled it in.  Look at the date on page 3 you'll see 24th April 1996?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes I was in maximum prison.

UNKNOWN: I'm going to ask you my question again then, what is there in this story that would help you by telling it that would prevent whatever it was you were scared of or confused about or whatever, do you understand?  How would telling this lie benefit you in any way?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: This is not a lie it's the truth.  Today it's the time to tell the truth.  What I know and what I'm saying today is what happened and it's the reason why I came here today.  Now I don't understand if it looks like I'm lying because my main reason to come here is to apply for amnesty.

UNKNOWN: You seem a bit confused, I'm talking about your form, I'm not talking about your evidence here today.  I'm trying to understand why you should say something in your form that isn't true which you admit today isn't true and how the telling of that could be of benefit to you.  Then what did you think you would achieve by telling something that wasn't true in the form.  It's all I'm trying to ask you, do you understand my question?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes I understand.  Today I explained that the situation in maximum prison it's one situation that will shake anyone more especially a small child or someone who is young.  It's not a situation or the conditions are not condusive for a youngster.  Now this effected me when I wrote this statement I was effected and I wasn't in my right senses.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Ms Thabete.

MS THABETE: Thank you Madame Chair.

MS THABETE: Mr Ndlangamandla are you saying today that a statement you wrote three years after your grandfather died and when the whole thing was fresh again as compared to now was a lie?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: I'm not saying it's a lie, I just wanted to tell you about the situation in which I was in in prison when I first wrote the statement.  My mind is not as well - it wasn't as well as I am today.

MS THABETE: But Mr Ndlangamandla, surely one of your versions is a lie, it's not the truth because you've told two versions.  One version says you were behind a house when your grandfather was shot and today's version says you were in a line almost next to him, there were two people separating you when he was shot, there were no houses.  Obviously between those two contradicting versions there is one that is the truth, there is one that is not the truth.  So what I'm asking you is when you wrote to the amnesty because weren't you aware that you were writing to the Truth Commission then, were you aware?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: Yes I was aware.

MS THABETE: So my question to you is weren't you aware then that you were not telling the truth?

MHLETSWA ANTHONY NDLANGAMANDLA: No I wasn't aware.

MS THABETE: So in your mind you actually thought you were behind the house when you saw your grandfather was shot, is that what you're saying?