Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-04-20

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: Yes, first of all I heard him talking about, okay, he refers to us as Askaris.  But I would like to say that I am not an Askari, I was not an Askari and none of us in that group was an Askari, for your information.
	Because Askaris actually were later, I mean around 1991, 1992 they were disbanded and when they were disbanded, they were given moneys.  I mean moneys, I wish I could get that money, but I never got that money.  So I am not an Askari.  This is for your information.
	Actually had I been an Askari, how could it happen that later the ANC now, takes me to Walmansthal and then I get to be with the new SANDF, that is a contradiction.  There is a contradiction somewhere there because I didn't go there through the SADF, I went through the ANC, I was registered as a member, former member of MK.  That is how I got to be a member of the SANDF.

MR MAPOMA: At the time when you were in Umtata, were you in good terms with the ANC?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: The time I was here in Umtata, I can say what happened is that on June 11, on a Monday, we went to the local ANC offices down town, and then ...

MR MAPOMA: Sorry, can you just make this clear, all I want to know is whether at the time when you were in Umtata, during that period when Mr Sipho Phungulua was killed, were you in good terms with the African National Congress?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: I can say so.  We were in good terms, yes, let me just put it like that.

MR MAPOMA: But you were not members of the ANC, is that so?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: Yes, we were not members.  I mean members in that sense of being in the (indistinct)

MR MAPOMA: No, in the actual, what I want to say is that you had not rejoined the ANC at that time?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: Actually what happened is that we had prior, before we went to PE where actually Sipho comes from, and there we met many relevant ANC aligned structures people, and we told them our story and what happened is that they accepted us to the ANC ranks.  They said we should help them and then actually what they found out is that we are not against ANC per se but just against certain actions of certain individuals who happened to be leaders and when you happen to talk against a leader, it seems as if you are talking against the organisation.
	I can say that.

MR MAPOMA: Okay, Mr Matshaya said that you were in the group of Mr Twala, do you confirm that?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: Yes, we were in the same group.  Not in the group of Twala, Twala and I were just in one group because Twala was not our leader.
	What happened is that we just gave each other responsibilities, Twala you are going to talk about the period from such a time to such a time and I am going to talk about such a time to such a time, and somebody will talk about such a time to such a time, because the whole history is so long, no man can - so what happened is that I can say the press or even the State Security wanted to promote, to single out Twala as a leader, but we told  him no, don't fall prey to that nonsense, we are all together here, and what we are doing, we are not doing it for ourselves.  We are doing it for those who died for the struggle outside and those who are still in prison in Quattro and other places.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this in 1990?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: That was in 1990.

MR MAPOMA: Was Phungulua also in your group?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: Phungulua was also in my group, yes.

MR MAPOMA: Would you explain what was your purpose of visiting the ANC in Transkei?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: Well, I am born and bred here in Umtata so I took it that, well since Sipho have cleared his name and he was accepted in the region of the PE region, I thought the same could happen here.
	So I went there in that spirit really, we went there in that spirit that these people are going to accept us, because they will soon realise that we are not enemies of the ANC.  So we went there in that good spirit and we were never armed.
	I was never armed, ever, since I arrived in this country.  I never carried a gun, till today I don't carry a gun.  I don't have such problems of carrying guns and they are too heavy sometimes.  I went there in that good spirit, unarmed, just armed with reconciliation in our hearts.  That is all I can say.

MR MAPOMA: So, is it your evidence that you went to the ANC in order to reconcile with the ANC in Umtata?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: Yes, we came to reconcile, to clarify our position, to clear our name and for me to remain in Umtata and carry on with work, whether it will be for the organisation or I can just maybe have some job of my own.

MR MAPOMA: Now, Mr Matshaya says that during that time when you came to Umtata, you were calling yourselves a new ANC, what is your response to that?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: That surprises me because we never gave ourselves a name of, actually it is the first time I hear of such a name, new ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Not even over the television?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: No, sorry we never had that name.  Believe me, the first time that I hear that there was a new ANC organisation, no, no.  This is news to me.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Matshaya also said that you wanted to get a new leadership of the ANC when you came to Umtata, you wanted to introduce that mission, what is your response to that?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: No, another thing he said was that we were insulting the leadership during press conferences.  That I must say is not true, we never insulted anybody and that we wanted to be leaders or have another new leadership, that is also not true.

ADV GCABASHE: If I might just say, not necessarily in Umtata, I understood it to be the organisation as a whole.  Not specifically the Umtata branch, just to put that into context.
	You still say that you didn't want to change the leadership even when you were out of the country?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: Yes, I think what we had highlighted is that even, what led to our imprisonment to Quattro was that the ANC was no more going according to its principles, that after every four years there should be a national conference held where leadership will be democratically elected, that doesn't mean that we are not satisfied, we want a new leadership, it is just that we wanted the democracy, the ANC principles to be practised but unfortunately that led us to be victimised and imprisoned in Quattro.  There is a lot I can say but I would like to keep to your questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, as I understood your evidence earlier and you must correct me if I am wrong, you were unhappy with the leadership of the ANC in exile?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: Yes, we were unhappy really.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, that approach or that attitude how does that fall in with the previous question?
	In other words you were unhappy with the leadership, but yet you did not seek any changes, you didn't want to change the leadership?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: When I say we were unhappy with the leadership, yes we were unhappy with the way things were going, the struggle was continuing inside the country, even outside, we were victimising each other.
	The ANC Security Forces were just harassing us, beating us, torturing us, imprisoning us, so such things can only be blamed on the leadership and if it so happens that people in a democratic elections, in a democratic election, happen to choose other leaders, then that is democracy, but now what we had there was a scenario where those leaders did not want there to be any national conference where there will be democratically, where there will be elections democratically.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were interested in a change of the leadership?

LUTHANDO DYASOPHU: We were interested in the upholding of the principles of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes.