Special Hearings — Trojan Horse Hearings — 1997-05-21

ADV VAN ZYL: Chairperson I am sorry to interrupt at this stage.  The witness is being confronted with a video.  He left the hall at the time of the showing, or he didn't want to see it again, I just want to put that on record.
Secondly, I have asked whether this video was edited or not and we are still not sure what the position is.  It certainly looked as if it had been edited.  So it maybe, I am not saying it is, but it maybe dangerous to rely on that video if you are talking time.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We note that Advocate van Zyl.  I am told the video is not edited.  We will need to be absolutely certain about that and we will check that.
Secondly I think that Ms Gobodo is willing to continue without pursuing that question.

ADV VAN ZYL: Thank you.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Madam Chair.  I think that - we do appreciate the difficulty, but we've had many witnesses come here to the Commission even witnesses who came to testify about the incident who struggled with the memory of the events themselves and many of them cried through their testimony and that is expected.  When people re-tell an experience that was traumatic it is part of it and we are hoping that as part of the catharsis, as part of the way of dealing with the trauma, it is one way to deal with the trauma from the depths of themselves.  So it is important, and we perceive this process as important.  It is more important to speak truthfully about the incident because that is one way in which any person suffering from trauma can release himself or herself from the pressure of the trauma.  And for that reason I may have to get back to the video.  I will not be able to promise that I will not go back to the video.  This is part of the evidence, part of the testimony and the trauma, re-traumatising of people is unfortunate, but fortunately one consequence of it is that when people speak the truth they are released from the burden of the trauma, somehow.
I will just ask one last time, or rather mention that the video is not edited.  We do not have editing facilities.  We got the video from CBS, a copy of the original video and it is not edited.  So I am referring to the video as unedited.  It is a copy of the original and it is not edited.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if I may just say ...(intervention)

ADV VAN ZYL: Chairperson I would question that statement.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what I would like to place on record is that we have not edited the video in any way.  Of course we cannot say what news editors may have done.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Madam Chair.  I do not have the skill to comment on video material, but I am not sure if editors, just in terms of the way we saw the video it didn't seem as if there is anything edited out, I am not sure how it would happen between the shooting and the throwing of the stones, but really I do not have the professional expertise to comment on whether in fact the video does show signs of having been edited particularly at that point that I am talking about.
I was asking the question of, my question in relation to your firing activity.  When you started firing you fired at a group of people, were these people throwing stones?

DOUW VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So according to your memory of the events on that day you jumped out and you immediately saw who was throwing stones and you started firing?

DOUW VERMEULEN: We use the word "who" was throwing stones.  What I saw on that day is that the crowd on the right-hand side of the truck were all busy throwing stones at the truck.  I've already used the phrase a very intense attack and that is how I experienced it on that day.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: In what way were your lives in danger on that day?

DOUW VERMEULEN: I hope I am understanding your question correctly.  Our lives were endangered by these objects thrown at the truck and at us.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And when you started firing your first shot what did the crowd do?

DOUW VERMEULEN: In earlier testimony in a court case I used the term "fell back", and by that I don't mean that they turned around and ran away.  In the period during which I fired the seven shots and you saw the video, for that period of time whilst I was firing people were throwing stones, if that answers your question.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And what did they do after you fired your shots?

DOUW VERMEULEN: What I can say is that the group stopped throwing stones, they ran away, disappeared into the houses, disappeared down the road, I will just describe it as running away.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So did they run away after you fired the first shots or did they run away after a long firing session?

DOUW VERMEULEN: As I said earlier how I recall it is that during the firing of the shots, the shots that I fired, in that period the stone-throwing was still carrying on.  After I had stopped shooting my observation or opinion was that the stone-throwing had stopped.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: In other words you had to fire, in your case you fired seven shots and the other men fired their own number of shots but in total there were about 39 shots fired, so would you argue that you had to fire 39 shots before the crowds actually dispersed?

DOUW VERMEULEN: Yes.  I think it was 39, I am not quite sure.  If you say there were 39 shots I will accept that.  I know I had fired seven shots on my side and when I stopped firing the stone-throwing had been averted on my side of the truck.  I can't say for sure what the position was on the left-hand side of the truck.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So you would argue that people started running away after, at the end of your firing, they didn't run away after your first shots, they waited until you had fired and your men had fired a total of 39 shots before they started running away?

DOUW VERMEULEN: No.  After I had fired my seventh shot they started running away.  My experience was that during my firing of shots and up until the seventh shot there were stones being thrown.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Were these shots from the same firearm?

DOUW VERMEULEN: Yes, mine.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I mean they were from the same - your firearm, but were they from the same firearm?  Did you have to use another firearm or did you have to reload or anything?  Were you firing from the same firearm?

DOUW VERMEULEN: No mine were all fired from the one firearm.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: So the crowds thereafter ran after you had emptied your firearm?

DOUW VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I just want to make a comment that I find it difficult to believe that people would stand by while you were firing shots.  But one question I would like to ask is how far were you, your truck, from the crowd?

DOUW VERMEULEN: As I've already said the truck was surrounded by people and after 12 years it is very difficult for me to estimate.  It was a single carriageway, it was a normal pavement and I remember there was a house set slightly back on the plot so from where I was to where the house started it's difficult for me to estimate.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I guess I'm not really talking about precise measurements here but if you could estimate, what you are suggesting therefore is that between the truck and the house which is really right on the pavement as we heard yesterday, you are talking about Mrs Ryklief's home I believe, between that house and the pavement there could only be just about a couple of, maybe a metre even I mean at most, a metre between the truck and the crates, would that be a fair estimate?