Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-06

MR KNOETZE: Then page 213, paragraph 31
"Counter-insurgency guidelines as explained in Chapter 2 of this submission.  The counter-insurgency war was conducted on a decentralised basis, where regional command structures conducted operations within the framework of guidelines issues by the SADF Headquarters.  The guidelines for counter-insurgency as contained in the strategy, according to which regional commands were to involve the SADF in internal operations, were briefed as follows: ..."
... and it continues in:
(a)	"Evaluation of the nature and scope of the threat of subversion in co-operation with other organisations within the Intelligence community."
Now was that also done?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, that's correct.  That was done by means of the Joint Information Centre as well as the centres which we had in the Transkei and the Ciskei for information and Intelligence.

MR KNOETZE: Would you also say that that was embodied in Plan Strelitzia and Plan Katzen?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, that's correct.

MR KNOETZE: Then on page 216, paragraph 32
...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Knoetze, we don't have pages 215, 216, 217 or 21 - wait, sorry, it's just 219 is in the wrong place.  I've got it.  They've put page 219 in front of 215, so I have got it.

MR KNOETZE: Mr Chairman, we sent out original down to Cape Town, and we've now made an arrangement with the Evidence Leader.  I believe that he's now going to assist by handing up ...

CHAIRPERSON: We've got 216.  I thought we didn't have it because 219 was out of place, and when I turned the page over from 215, it was 219.  216 followed 219, so I've got it.

MR KNOETZE: General, I'd like to take you back to 216, paragraph 32
"The SADF as an organisation, has a decentralised command structure, meaning that the authority and responsibility and execution and functioning of the SADF is delegated."
And then the last portion of that quote:
"Army Headquarters then exercised control and monitoring as well as liaison functions."
Is that what you've also referred to previously, as to how this system worked?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, that's correct.  The Chief of the Army, after the plan was presented to him by me, sent one of his officers to Port Elizabeth.  And at the stage when Katzen was referred to the Chief of Staff and a Project Officer was appointed, both of those officers, Chief of the Army and the Chief of Staff had to monitor and control or exercise monitoring and controlling functions on behalf of those bodies.

MR KNOETZE: Then page 242, paragraph 59.  It concerns the involvement of the TBVC countries of the South African Army and also its involvement in the self-governing territories.  Can you explain how you in your capacity with your three functions, how you were involved in this, broadly speaking.

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes.  As joint Chairperson of the Joint Management Council I was responsible for the development, the Army's development of these countries was taking place according to schedule, that the budget was judiciously employed and used, and I was also responsible for, along with the Heads of the Defence Force of these countries and the GBR's, in terms of the GBR's, to ensure that the correct training was being given and when joint operations were necessary, that is was planned and that the carrying out of these actions were monitored.

MR KNOETZE: Mr Chairman, that is all that we wish to refer to in that part of Exhibit C at this stage.  If we may now return to the other section please, more specifically to page 760.
	General, please tell the Committee what is the nature of this document.

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Chairperson, this is a policy document which deals with the national or the RSA's interests, the country's government and the purpose or objectives of the government.  And it also sets out certain guidelines for an eventual constitutional dispensation in Southern Africa.  It was dated 4 March 1980, and it was approved by the Cabinet.

MR KNOETZE: Mr Chairman, may I just indicate to you that this is a document which is referred to in the presentation by the SANDF, and is indicated in paragraph 27(a) on page 15, to be Annexure A.
	General, could we then go to page 761.  Could you please tell us when this document was written, if you look at paragraph 1.

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: On the 4th of March 1980 it was approved.

MR KNOETZE: Now this was sometime before you wrote plan Strelitzia and Katzen.  In your opinion, does it have any relevance to Katzen and Strelitzia?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, it does.  The contents of this is relevant to both Strelitzia and Katzen.

MR KNOETZE: Did those guidelines not change over that period?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: It was supplemented by several guideline documents which came from the State Security Council at the JMC, and was dealt with in that way.

MR KNOETZE: But the essence of it stayed the same?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That's correct.

MR KNOETZE: The document says in 1.1, that the document was limited to Ministers and heads of departments.  So how did you become aware of the contents of this?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I can't recall that it came to me in the Eastern Cape Command in this form, but the content of this was made known to me by means of guidelines and documents from the Secretariat of the State Security Council.

MR KNOETZE: Yes.  Can I refer you to, for instance, paragraph 3.  What is the essence of paragraph 3?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The guideline must be employed immediately in the Management of the RSA's national security and social welfare systems.  That was the task of the JMCs.

MR KNOETZE: Right.  Then page 762, paragraph 1.1.  Will you please read that?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Southern Africa is currently in a situation of a total conflict and can, if there is no solution soon, can be destroyed completely.

MR KNOETZE: And despite the fact that the report had already been drafted in 1980?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes.  I may just add that this was the situation in 1980, that was the view of the situation in 1980.  And in my experience, after 1980 it became worse, and by the mid-80's it was a very serious matter.

MR KNOETZE: Which then by implication required a more urgent to the problem?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes.

MR KNOETZE: Can we then go to page 763, paragraph 1.10 up to 1.11.2.  Please read that.

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: 1.10
"It is clear that the idea of a constellation of Southern African States offers the most hopeful alternative for the subcontinent and must be actively promoted."
1.11
"To establish a Southern African constellation of States, it is essential that the RSA firstly, in consultation with the leaders of all States in Southern African areas, areas of common interest, to develop these areas and use these as a means of averting the two-front attack.  This means destabilisation and the normalisation processes.  Joint action is an urgent essential on all four the power bases, namely economic, constitutional and social and security."
2nd point:
"As far as the black nations are concerned, these must be given self-determination based on ethnicity in order to consolidate the entire area and to motivate them positively."

MR KNOETZE: Once again the chorus that I keep asking you, was that embodied in Strelitzia and Katzen?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, especially the last paragraph, that is essential to Katzen and also Strelitzia.