Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-19

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think we should spar here.  He fired at four people in the car.  He shot some of them.  I don't think he counted, who, which and where.  It will be unrealistic to expect that he is able to say this after 13 years.

MR WEBSTER: Well, with respect, Mr Chairman, that I would have absolutely no quarrel with.

CHAIRPERSON: Then let's just proceed.

MR WEBSTER: And in the same manner I would have no quarrel with the witness sticking to this version that I might have hit one or more of the occupants.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: But he is stating under oath now he hit four of them.  He said so, I didn't say so.  As a fact, as a statement of fact, not as a speculations or conjecture, with respect, Mr Chairman, he has said so.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that just now that you hit four people?  Is that what you are trying to say?  Please explain.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I fired at a vehicle, a small space of four persons, there is a possibility that I hit one of the four or all four.  I fired 15 rounds and that enclosed enclosure of a motor vehicle.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Wasserman, help me now.  Your intention is to arrest people.  You encounter the vehicle, you shoot and empty your entire magazine on the occupants of the vehicle.  Were you trying to arrest them?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: there was no longer an attempt to arrest.  Once we had thought that we were under fire from that vehicle there was no more, there was no intention of arresting further.

MR WEBSTER: And you see what I'm actually now putting to you finally is this and bearing in mind what you said regarding the first shots that you heard, that the action came from Mr Botha because you heard them, that you intended to kill these people, you didn't intend to arrest them, that is why all that you did was you heard Mr Botha fire and you fired to kill, never to arrest, because it had never been your intention?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's not correct, Sir.

MR WEBSTER: Now I'm going to suggest further, Mr Wasserman, that that, that those actions or that action of yours, was consistent with what you had been doing prior to this incident, executing suspects.  Your response?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: What suspects?

MR WEBSTER: You call them terrorists.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: What terrorists?

MR WEBSTER: The ones that you have applied for amnesty for.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That was all after this happened.

MR WEBSTER: Be it before or after I am saying it is conduct that is consistent, Mr Wasserman, with your execution of suspects.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Not true Sir.

MR WEBSTER: And I'm going to suggest, as I started initially, that you found the opportunity in the Special Branch to pay back or in your mind, the scores from Zimbabwe.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is an outrageous statement and I reject it utterly.

MR WEBSTER: Further, can you tell the Commission why it is that when you made your application you made no reference to firing of, or possible firing of Uzzis, HMs and R1s by the Reaction Unit?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I merely said a large number of shots were fired by the Reaction Unit.  At that point in time I didn't deem it necessary and I would lead that evidence here before the Commission.

MR WEBSTER: I suppose you don't see the relevance of the various types of firearms that fire different sizes of ammunition in so far as relates to the examination of the injuries and the post mortems?  You don't see the relevance?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: ...(inaudible - no microphone)

CHAIRPERSON: All the words of the evidence are not let out.  This is an application for amnesty, the application form, you understand?  We are guided by the evidence he gives here and this is obviously an expansion of what is contained in the application form, so if some of the details are not in the application form, but are given here in oral evidence, that is what matters, isn't it?  Unless you are suggesting that this was purposely concealed from us, purposely not mentioned in the application form?

MR WEBSTER: Mr Chairman and members of the Commission, you will pardon me for having that suspicion in mind.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR WEBSTER: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WEBSTER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Visser, re-examination?

MR VISSER: None thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Wasserman, I don't know whether you will be able to assist me here, but how often did it happen that the Special Branch or Security Branch asked the Reaction Unit to assist them in operations?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It was a very regular occurrence, Ma'am.  Very regular indeed.

ADV BOSMAN: So this was not unusual at all?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Not at all.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.  I have no more questions, thank you.

MR LAX: Mr Wasserman, just one aspect.  I wasn't actually intending to ask you any questions, but this is one thing that's occurred to me and it's the issue of what happened when you alighted from the vehicle, once both vehicles - well the way I understand it, both vehicles were literally joined from the impact and came to a standstill.  This is the suspect vehicle and the kombi that you were in?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Not so, Mr Lax.  When - that's how they came to rest but after the initial collision with us, we were pushed forward.  After being pushed forward Lembede and I alighted from our vehicle.

MR LAX: Alright.  Now, what I'm just trying to get a better picture of is what happened when you got out of the vehicle.  You have given two slightly different versions of what happened and I just want to clarify that.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Okay Sir, I can clarify for you.  Lembede and I alighted and approached the suspect vehicle which was now still going forward in the same line as ours was.  Him and I were both still firing our pistols and behind, started on both sides of the vehicle, came the Reaction Unit boys, they were on foot.  Their vehicle had stopped and they were 'debusing', they were coming towards us.  Their rifles were up and they had started to fire.  I then grabbed Lembede and I ran between the back of my vehicle and the front of their vehicle, before it collided and proceeded up the bank then.  Whilst proceeding up the bank, heavy fire opened up from the Reaction chaps.

MR LAX: You see earlier in your evidence and if I remember correctly, was your evidence in chief, you spoke of bullets whistling past you and you guys nearly being shot.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's correct.  That was at this stage.

MR LAX: And the impression I got was that all hell had broken loose and you guys just ran for your lives.  Now that was the impression you gave in your evidence in chief.  Under cross-examination you gave a slightly different version which was that initially the chaps from the reaction Unit were not firing as heavily and that allowed you to see what would happen.  That's what you said.  You said, "I could see what was going to happen".  Do you remember?  Those were your specific words.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.  Yes.  I - when they 'debussed' and they approached that vehicle, I knew now Lembede and I were in trouble.  I knew that and that is when I grabbed him by the arm and then we ran out and I presume that they didn't open fire because they had seen us in the firing line and as soon as we were out, that is when all hell broke loose, Sir.

MR LAX: You see there's just this slight contradiction here to bullets whistling past you and your lives being in serious danger and you seeing what would happen and getting out of the way before it became too dangerous.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It's perhaps just the choice of words from my legal personnel.  Thank you Chairperson.