Human Rights Violation Hearings — Mmabatho — 1996-07-08

MS SEROKE: Thank you very much, Mr Thwane, for sharing
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this information with us.  I would like to ask you a few questions.
 In your testimony you mentioned that you were forcibly removed from Johannesburg.  Was it by law, or how did this happen?

MR THWANE: Whilst resident in Johannesburg, I happened to be involved in affairs that resulted in the uprising of 1976.  We were opposed to Afrikaans as medium of instruction.  I was very prominent.  As you know, people started running all over the country.  I was a member of the school board, Midlands School Board, under the Chairmanship of the late Mr A Lethlape.
 Apparently, Lethlape as a Mangope man, gave our names to Mangope.  That we have people here in Johannesburg who would or who could help in the development of Bophuthatswana.   Not me alone, but people like Boss Solirathebe,  Mr Mokale, quite a number of them who ultimately became cabinet ministers here.  I could not feature in the Mangope Government although on various occasions I was offered a cabinet post, if only I was prepared to serve under Mangope, but I flatly refused.   I preferred to be a South African at all times.  That resulted in my being removed because now the Superintendent of Midlands where I was residing, called to his office and told me I was wanted by my people, my government.  I had to leave and vacate the house.
 I suggested to the Superintendent, let my leave my family here and go back to Mafikeng and hear why those people want me there.  Fortunately, I still own that house up to this day because my children are still there.
He was humanly enough to allow that to happen, but I had 
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to come to Mafikeng.  And I was never allowed to go back, because immediately on arrival here, they took my pass.  I was a holder of a pass book.  It was taken by the Mangope regime.

MS SEROKE: So when you came to Mafikeng and you were made those offers and you refused what did you do?  Did you find a job and did you find a house?

MR THWANE: Fortunately, I originated from this place.  So, whilst I was working I knew that one day I will have to retire.   We never thought the country would be split into pieces and whilst I was working I built a house here for my retirement.  And it was occupied by my relatives all along.  So I had no problem with accommodation, but having refused offers by Mangope I knew I would never be employed, unless by the private sector and I was not just prepared.
 I felt, accepting a job would be accepting not to be a South African, but to be a member of a bantustan regime.   So I preferred to live from hand to mouth, relying mostly on my wife who was and is still employed.  Apparently was employed by Susanna's sister.  She was transferred over here.  So her job was secured all along.

MS SEROKE: You also mentioned that you were taken to Mafikeng Police Station and on the next day you were taken to Rooigrond.   What happened that night in the Mafikeng cell after you were picked up?

MR THWANE: Fortunately, I was not the only one.  Nothing happened to anybody.  We were just kept there for the night.

MS SEROKE: You have already told us what happened at Rooigrond, the interrogation and the torture that was
administered to you.  And then you were released on the 24th of February.   You have also stated that you were re-MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
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detained and you wandered why you were re-detained and perhaps some of the people may have informed against you, but subsequently say they wanted to know where Rokie was.
Do you think that was the purpose of re-detaining you?

MR THWANE: Well, the questioning about Rokie was just part of my re-detention.  They suspected, because having relatives in Botswana, I could have arranged for Rokie to be kept somewhere there, because all along, until it was established Rokie was in England, my relatives in Botswana were harassed.
 They told my at one stage they were stopped at the border.  They could not be allowed to come this end of the border.  So there was that suspicion that I has arranged for his accommodation there.

MS SEROKE: You were a member of the People's Progressive Party.  And you say part of your strategy was that Mangope should be killed if the coup should be successful.
How did you feel when you  ... a strategy of that nature.

MR THWANE: Mangope was not as it should be, humanly a respected man.  Mangope was a feared man.  And once people fear a man, the only way of relieving themselves of such fear is for the elimination of that man.  So, when I planned this I was planning it for the relieve of the people, not for myself.  That would have been for the good of everybody, except his family of course.

MS SEROKE: Your strategy did not include other alternatives, peaceful ways of clearing the country of this man?

MR THWANE: As far as I knew Mangope, he was the type of
man who would not accept to leave this place.  The second point was that he leaned on the South African Government
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all along.  So, I knew that ultimately they would rescue him, exactly as they did.

MS SEROKE: You say that when you were told that you were released on the 9th of May 1989 you were relieved but it came as a surprise.  Why do you think they released you.

MR THWANE: It is because whilst in detention the warders  in jail were telling us, all of us, not me alone, that you people are going to hang.  You are facing a very serious crime of treason and I knew that treason meant life imprisonment or death, so I as waiting for any of the two.
That I would either, if charged, be given life imprisonment or be hanged.  So, that is why it came as a surprise when I was released, but still I had concern for those who were left behind - what was to happen to them?

MS SEROKE: Thank you Mr Thwane.

DR RANDERA: Mr Thwane you told us in great detail and I appreciate the effort and the energy you taken in telling us the build up to the coup on the 10th of February 1988  and what subsequently happened to you.  I'm interested to know what were you doing when you left Soweto to come to stay in Mafikeng and what are you doing at the present time.

MR THWANE: Whilst in Johannesburg I had a comfortable job, a job that was paying me well.  I was working out at Vereniging, I was working for the Railway Services, I was a booking clerk, selling tickets at the station.  I was then a good-paying job.  I was quite comfortable.  It made me bitter to find myself loosing that job, because I was bend on working until pensioned.  I was in Dlamane but I had
had conditioned myself not to interfere with the Government money because we assumed the rally was on by the  Government and that would have resulted in me getting a comfortable MMABATHO HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST
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pension.
 But on arrival here I ran around, I reorganised myself.  After refusing offers by the Mangope regime, I started by selling coal.  I became a coal merchant, which resulted in me building a shop.  All along I was owning that shop whilst a politician at the same time.  But on my release, because my wife could not man the shop, it was manned by relatives.  It deteriorated.  I am busy trying to rebuild it at the moment to re-establish it again.  As age does not allow me to be employed I was looking forward to be featuring in the present Government, but you know, these things don't just come to you .....