Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-06

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Well firstly, the chief figure was Kaizer Matanzima, the former President.  He was very powerful, in that time as well, and I think he expressed the sentiment that he wanted to see this unity of the Xhosa nation during his lifetime.  He felt very strongly about that, and it made quite an impression on me, that this old statesman still desired this unity of the Xhosa nation.
	George, his brother was also very dynamic.  He was a very good leader as far as I was concerned.  He was the first Minister, Minister of Defence, and he endorsed his brother's sentiments. 
	Namba Sebe was the Ciskeian Minister of Transport.  He'd been kicked out by his half-brother, Lennox Sebe and he sought asylum in the Transkei.  He often told me that he hated his brother, or his half-brother.  Charles Sebe was his blood-brother.
	And then there was Reverend Kaba, he was the former Deputy-President of the Ciskei.  Lennox Sebe also kicked him out and he also achieved or sought asylum in the Transkei.  There were other figures as well, but those were the main figures on the Transkei side.
	On the Ciskei's side there was Lennox Sebe, President Lennox Sebe.  He was seen by us, the whites in the RSA, as a thorn in the flesh as a result of this demand for land and his various statements and his instability.  He was quite an unpopular person, he was unpopular in his own country, and he was suspected of being corrupt and there were investigations done, and I think a case of corruption was investigated against him.  He was very afraid of his brother, Charles.  And then of course there was Charles Sebe who was the Chief of the Security Forces, half-brother of President Lennox Sebe.  	In August of '83, I think he tried to carry out a coup in the Ciskei, whereafter he was imprisoned in the Middledrift Prison for 12 years.  The coup failed.  However, he was a very powerful man and he had great status amongst the police and Defence Force of the Ciskei and even outside of the Ciskei.  He was very popular as a result of his charismatic personality.  I knew him personally and I had a very good relationship with him.  He was very strongly pro the Republic of South Africa and he also said that he hated Lennox Sebe. 	And then there's somebody for whom I had a lot of respect, Chief Lent Makoma.  He was a member of the aristocracy, he was a headman.  He had several cabinet posts.  Lennox Sebe saw him as a threat from the mid-80's, and kicked him out.  Chief Makoma then went to the Transkei.  There he established the party, the Ciskei People's Rights Protection Party, as apposition for Lennox Sebe.  He was also pro the RSA and he was a very eminent Xhosa leader.  
	There was Ray Marley, the former Minister of Foreign Affairs.  He was also detained.  He was moderate, also pro the RSA.  
	And then there was Sandile.  He was seen as a future chief and he was a confidant of Chief Makoma.
	And that was, in summary, the key figures on the Xhosa side.

MR KNOETZE: Then on page 78 we deal with the modus operandi.  You start with number 1 and you give a general sketch and say that
"It took place in three phases which overlapped and stretched from the date of the plan to December '87."
And then you say that phase 1 - well, please read out the purpose.

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: This goes back to the original idea, and that is:
"To establish a pro-RSA resistance movement among the Xhosas of the Eastern Cape and to activate it before December '86."
And then the execution of this phase in broad outlines.  I wrote that Charles Sebe was in the Middledrift Prison, had to be liberated from the prison.  We saw Charles Sebe - as a result of his high profile in the Security Forces, we saw him as the man who would lead this XWB, the resistance movement, and who could mobilise them.  The idea was that he should be liberated and freed.  I wrote, by negotiations with the Ciskei authorities or by covert Security Force actions, which could include anything from obtaining the key or bribing the guards, or - I'm not sure what the Afrikaans term is, in other words to organise a jailbreak.   I could perhaps just mention that the Eastern Province Command did not have the capacity to do that kind of thing. 
	Then after his liberation, in paragraph 2, his image had to be built up to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, sorry, General, why do you say the Eastern Province Command didn't have the capacity?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What I said was the Eastern Province Command under my leadership, did not have the capacity to free Charles Sebe from prison.  We only had the ordinary commando soldiers and the civilian force soldiers, and they would not stretch to obtaining of keys or jailbreaks or bribery and corruption.  So my suggestion here to the Chief of the Defence Force is that we have this need, but that we couldn't actually, we didn't have the capacity to do it ourselves.
	Paragraph 2 ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Sorry, can I interrupt you for a moment.  A lot of this has been very general to me.  I'm sorry I have to interrupt you, Mr Knoetze.  Then in the end, how was the liberation of Mr Charles Sebe brought about?  Did you play any role specifically with regard to the liberation of Charles Sebe from prison?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, I did play a role in the sense that I recommended that he be liberated from prison.  No, to the other part of your question, I didn't take part in the liberation of the man, I didn't have that capacity, and thirdly, he was liberated by the Special Forces of the South African Defence Force.  Does that answer your question?

MR KNOETZE: General, further in respect of his liberation from prison, I'd like to ask you, were there personalities of the time such as politicians who were also in favour of the liberation of this man from prison?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes.  Charles wrote several letters from prison, and I know that he wrote to the Commissioner of Police and he also wrote to me, and he more than likely also wrote to politicians.  General Viljoen at some point before he retired as Chief of the Defence Force or Chief of the Army, said to me that it was a pity that such a man was in prison.  There were rumours that he was being maltreated, and of course that led to even more discussion.  So given the profile that Charles had before he landed up in prison, yes there were many discussions and opinions voiced, and of course it was exaggerated and exacerbated by the rumours that he was being ill-treated.

MR KNOETZE: General, what about other politicians?  For instance, do you know what President PW Botha's attitude was?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, I'm not sure about President Botha's attitude.  I know that President Botha had some trouble with Lennox Sebe, but I had no firsthand knowledge of what President PW Botha's attitude was towards Charles Sebe.

MR KNOETZE: Thank you, you may continue, paragraph 9(a)2 ...(intervention)

MR SIBANYONI: I'm sorry, Mr Knoetze, maybe before he continues, as he was in a jail complaining about the conditions and ill-treatment, how were the letters possible to reach politicians and people outside the homeland, were they smuggled out?

CHRISTOFFEL PIERRE VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes, I'm not quite sure how his letters were smuggled out of prison but I think, given what I know of Middledrift, perhaps the warders or guards wrote to his family and this was discussed in the letters, or this was discussed in broad outlines.  But I actually know about the letters in which he wrote, and he complained in these letters.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

MR KNOETZE: Now, paragraph 9.2.