Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-11-16

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: It's the second Makawu, we have the first Makawu who is on the list and this second Makawu was mentioned later by the lady in question.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now at what stage did you assault this old lady with open hands, was that before the murders took place, between the two murders or after the murders?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: The beating of this lady happened before we killed anybody.  We were on our way to commit the murder.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Was this old lady's name on the list?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes it was on the list.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you kill her?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: It's because that lady explained that she doesn't kill in the witchcraft which she commits.  She knows Kambani and Makawu whose witchcraft is intended to kill.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were only after witches who committed ritual murders?

INTERPRETER: He doesn't understand the question because ritual murder and witchcraft murder is two different things.

CHAIRPERSON: Who performed witchcraft involving the killing of people?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: The people we were intending to kill, it's people who used to give people for example Sangomas who used to give people medicine to kill and the people who practice witchcraft of killing people.  It's true we were looking after these people because there were stumbling blocks in reaching our objective.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what about witches who did not perform that were they exempted from being dealt with?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: So there was no witch who was exempted.  On that day Chinako Simete was her luck that she was not killed after making the statement of giving us those two people.

CHAIRPERSON: Well this doesn't make sense to me because I asked you just now why she wasn't killed.  You had her in your custody to the extent that she was assaulted.  I asked you why then if she was on the list why she wasn't then killed and your answer was to the effect that she explained that, her activities in witchcraft, it did not involve killing people and therefore she was not killed.  Do you remember saying so?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: So am I correct then by saying it follows that only people who were involved with witchcraft related to killing people that were the targets of your attack and that they were intended to be killed.  Am I correct in understanding you?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the correct position, I'm asking.

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Can you remember yesterday you testified that you decided to kill the witches because you wanted to make Venda ungovernable, can you remember that?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes I still remember.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Now this lady, the old lady was as a witch put on the list so won't you say that that would have furthered your cause to make Venda ungovernable to kill this old lady, wouldn't that have furthered your cause?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: It would have furthered our cause but on that day I have indicated that I beat her using my bare hands and others assaulted her by sticks and she fell down and the people thought she was dead.  Unfortunately she was not dead that is why I've indicated that it was lucky that she didn't die on that day.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Are you now saying that you actually intended to kill her, actually thought that you have killed her but she wasn't killed, is that what you're now saying?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes when we left her room, it's only after she gave us the incident of witches who were participating the same thing together and then we thought she was dead when we left.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Why didn't you burn her place, her hut?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: It's because we realised that the person we were after was already attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do to her that you thought she was dead?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: After falling down I decided to shake her and I realised that she was not speaking.

CHAIRPERSON: Was she stabbed, hacked, poisoned or what?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: She was oozing or bleeding because she was being beaten by sticks but she was not stabbed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes carry on?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you remember that yesterday the Chairperson explained to you that in order to qualify for amnesty you've got to make full disclosure of the facts, can you remember that?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes I still remember that.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay now the question is why didn't you tell us this story about attempting to kill the old lady yesterday?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yesterday as I was trying to explain or where this thing started and the Chairperson asked me to ask people who didn't make - I mustn't talk about the people who didn't apply for amnesty and then he advised me to give my evidence on two cases Maphaha and Madadzhe.

MR VAN RENSBURG: But you are making application for assault on this old lady as well, aren't you?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: I'm also doing that, that is why I'm trying to explain that yesterday where we have travelled that day.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, I want to point out something to you.  I don't know if it helps you to answer the question.  When I told you to leave out incidents for which amnesty is not being applied for, you were already on the murders.  The first murder was Madadzhe, you'd already described that, then I told you just keep all the other incidents in between and go straight to the other matter that you're applying for, do you remember?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes I still remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you say this lady was assaulted before any murder?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So the time you were supposed to have spoken about this lady, I had not yet asked you to get to the crimes for which you apply for amnesty, do you understand?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Now that's why the attorney is asking you the question that why didn't you explain all this yesterday.  You on your own went straight to the meeting, you went straight to Madadzhe.  Whether that is true or not, I mean you went in your evidence, you went straight there.  I'm not saying that's what actually happened.

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: That is not true, what I've said yesterday is that after the meeting we went to Makawu, that's where I've started, it's then that when I was giving my evidence there and then the Chairperson advised me to concentrate on two cases for which I'm applying for amnesty.  That's why I've started to talk about Madadzhe and Maphaha after being warned by the Chairperson that we are only talking about the cases in which I have applied for amnesty and we're not talking about the cases for which I didn't apply for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Then why didn't you include this one about the lady if you're applying for it?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yesterday I would have talked about her if I was given a chance to do so.  If I was given a chance to explain that from Mamakawu, we went to which place and which place, I would have reached that item.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, I want to point out to you yesterday also when you were asked what you were applying for you said two murders and arson, that's what your evidence was.  Do you recall that?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Yes I still remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't even tell us you were applying for assault?

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: Maybe all that or as I was trying to give the whole story, when the Chairperson interjects ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You had not yet got onto your story, we asked you first what are you applying for.  It's very near the beginning of your evidence.

LANGANANI FOSTER MUNYAI: I'm should have, maybe I have forgotten to mention it, if I didn't mention it yesterday.