Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-22

MR VISSER: Could you please tell us what you remember about this?  What was your information regarding these two people and what had been discussed, how the whole thing developed at these meetings - please tell us as far as you can remember?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Chairperson, these meetings took place - and I've had a look at the applications of the other applicants, after they had these discussions with each other - if I remember correctly, there was about ten to fourteen days before the 14th of April - just give me a chance to check it, the 14th of April 1982, du Plessis and van Rensburg came to me at a stage and these two gentlemen, Mthimkhulu and Madaka - they discussed these two men with me and the meeting dealt with what their perceptions were and the role played by these people in these uncontrollable circumstances.
	One of the things we discussed was that Mthimkhulu, had become ill after he was released from detention.  There were major headlines in the newspapers to the effect that he had been given some kind of poison and as a result of this he landed up in hospital, I can't remember for how long he stayed there.  His condition improved and he returned to Port Elizabeth.  His condition improved to such an extent that he could continue with his general activities and with the assistance and support of Madaka, he continued to do that.

MR VISSER: I'm sorry for interrupting but can you be more specific, what was told to you about Mthimkhulu's activities and what exactly was the role played by Mr Madaka?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Mr Mthimkhulu's role was that of a leader figure in COSAS, he was a leading figure in COSAS and I've already sketched what this role - this COSAS role was.  Mr Madaka was in an ANC cell along with Mr Mthimkhulu, they were taken up into this ANC cell.
	Mthimkhulu, according to the information which I received, played the more open role, in other words working towards the mobilisation of the people and working towards making the youth politically aware etc., distributing pamphlets, that sort of thing - ANC pamphlets, inflammatory pamphlets.  He was assisted by Mr Madaka.  
	Both these gentlemen, according to my information, also recruited students and scholars for military training abroad.  Mr Madaka possessed a car and he also acted as a courier and there was also some information that he transported weapons between Lesotho and this division or section.  
	Mr Madaka  was also responsible for the establishment of DLB's and that was the dead letter box or a place where these weapons could be stored - concealed  is perhaps a better word.

MR VISSER: Now, what about the creation of safe house for terrorists?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, his further duty was to look after the ANC cadres who were infiltrating.

MR VISSER: To do what Mr Erasmus?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: These cadres who were infiltrating came here with one purpose only and that was - or rather with more than one objective, but firstly to commit acts of sabotage, to train people in the handling of weapons inside the borders of the country and ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: If we may continue, did Mr Madaka have sisters or brothers according to your information?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: As far as I knew he had one brother and at that stage he was somewhere in a foreign country and it was also my information that he was a trained cadre.

MR VISSER: I might have to refer you to an affidavit in bundle B - I hope I'll be able to find it without too much delay, otherwise I'll draw your attention to it tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: Who by?

MR VISSER: It's by the - as I remember, the sister of Mr Madaka.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] page 71.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  No.  I will look for it Mr Chairman, but it refers to safe houses.  I thought for completeness of the evidence before you but I'll draw your attention to it tomorrow Mr Chairman, I'll look for it this afternoon.
	As far as the brother was concerned, you said he was a trained cadre and regarding Mr Madaka and Mthimkhulu's actions, were you aware of any incidents of violence?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I was aware that Mr Madaka or rather Mr Mthimkhulu, had been involved in a shooting at the funeral of Robert Sebukwe and that happened at Graaf Reinet.

CHAIRPERSON: When did that happen?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: I think if I recall correctly, it was during 1979.

MR VISSER: Do you have any further information, who shot at whom and what happened?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: The information at my disposal is that Mr Buthalezi and a policeman had been shot at and they were wounded in the incident.

MR VISSER: Mr Erasmus, you were told all these things, what happened then?  How did the conversation develop, what else was discussed especially as regards what you were supposed to do?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Just before I answer this question Chairperson, please allow me to say the following:  I was busy saying that Mthimkhulu had played on the level, the open role and Mr Madaka took a more underground role.  Now, to get to the discussion, the question was raised: "What must we do or what are we to do with these two people"?

MR VISSER: I'm sorry for interrupting you here, I believe that for purpose of continuity we need to say the following:  "Is it correct at that stage, in other words April 1982, Mr Mthimkhulu had already been detained previously by the security branch"?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, that's correct.

MR VISSER: And for the information of the Committee, the last occasion on which he'd been detained was from March 1981, 31st of March '81 to the 20th of October 1981 - he was then released.  Can you confirm that?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You've already told us that he became ill and he was admitted to hospital and there were allegations that he had been poisoned.  Now, the question is this, are you Gerrit Erasmus personally aware - do you have any personal knowledge of one, the fact that Mr Mthimkhulu had been poisoned by anybody?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: No, I don't have any such knowledge.

MR VISSER: Did you personally in any way - did you in any way and personally, have any dealings or involvement with such a poisoning if he had been poisoned?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: No.

MR VISSER: Do you have any knowledge of any other policeman being involved in the poisoning of Mr Mthimkhulu?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You were busy saying that as a result of the fact that it had been reported that Mr Mthimkhulu had been poisoned, he acquired a certain image amongst the other students.  Could you please elaborate on that, on that image that you referred to?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: After this poisoning, or suspected case of poisoning, Mr Mthimkhulu achieved a certain stature, he became - he grew in stature and became a very important person.

MR VISSER: Now if I can lead you here, did he achieve a certain martyr image?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, that's correct.

MR VISSER: Now, in your discussions, did you in respect of the possibility of an arrest of Mr Mthimkhulu and his further detention in terms of the security legislation then existing, did you consider that?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: It was discussed and considered and we came to the conclusion firstly, that head office would not authorise this action of ours or authorise us to take action on this idea namely in respect of this person who was still ill or not entirely healthy, to detain him once again.

MR VISSER: What did you suspect was likely to happen, should you detain him again?  I'm talking here about the possible reaction from other students, was that discussed?

GERRIT NICHOLAS ERASMUS: Yes, it was discussed and we came to the conclusion that if we tried to detain him again, that would lead to widespread unrest and riots.

MR VISSER: What about Mr Madaka, what about the arrest and the detention of Mr Madaka?