Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-25

MR SIPHO: The next applicant that I am calling is Mr Magula, whose application form is on page 141 and his evidence was dealt with on page 255 of the judgement.

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Sipho?

MR SIPHO: Thank you.  Mr Magula, how old are you?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: I am 27.

MR SIPHO: Where did you live during 1991?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: At Nhlalagahle township in Greytown.

MR SIPHO: Did you belong to any political organisation?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: Yes.

MR SIPHO: Which one?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: The ANC.

MR SIPHO: Okay.  Do you know the deceased in this case?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: yes.

MR SIPHO: What organisation did she belong to?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: I knew her as an ANC member.

MR SIPHO: You have heard all the evidence that has been led in this case thus far.  Do you associate yourself with the evidence that has been led?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: Yes.

MR SIPHO: Have you also been released on parole as a result of having been convicted in this case?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: Yes.

MR SIPHO: What exactly did you do in relation to the assaults upon the deceased?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: I was present when she was stabbed.

MR SIPHO: Did you also stab the deceased?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: Yes.

MR SIPHO: How many times?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: Although I cannot remember well, it was more than once.

MR SIPHO: Okay.  Did you do this with your own knife or with somebody else's knife?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: It was my knife.

MR SIPHO: Were you also part of the crowd that assaulted the deceased earlier that day, before she was taken to Msolo's house?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: Yes.

MR SIPHO: Okay.  How did you assault her there?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: I assaulted her using my hands and feet.

MR SIPHO: Here again members of the Committee, I intend to leave the evidence at this stage.  We will take it up if there is any cross-examination that requires re-examination.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIPHO

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MS THABETE: In your opinion, Mr Magula, why was the victim, why did you kill the victim?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: In my opinion, that time, the situation at that time was turbulent and I found the deceased to be at fault.

MS THABETE: Why was she at fault?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: She was found at a wrong place, where she was not supposed to be.

MS THABETE: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sipho, any re-examination?

MR SIPHO: I've got no further questions.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIPHO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.  In your form you say you were a member of the SDU.  Were you a member of the SDU?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: No, as far as I know I found our role to be similar to that of the SDU, because we were protecting the community.

MR LAX: Why did you write SDU in your form?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: I regarded our job and the SDU's to be the same.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just while you are dealing with this, Mr Magula, at the time, was there in fact a Self Defence Unit of the ANC or the UDF in place in Nhlalagahle township?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: As far as I knew, there was none, but from what I heard about how they operate, I understood how they work.

CHAIRPERSON: But were you, would you, although you were a young man at the time, would you have classified yourself as being reasonably politically aware?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: I was in line, or I supported whatever the ANC did in my area.

CHAIRPERSON: So if there was an SDU, would you have known of it, a properly established SDU?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: Yes, I would have known if it was under the organisation that I belonged to.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.  Just one other aspect.  At page 145 of the papers, this is a translation at 11(a) "even though the Chairman of the ANC at Nhlalagahle denied it", what are you referring to there?

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got page 145 in front of you Mr Magula.  Perhaps you should take a look at it, it is page 145 and there is a question there, numbered 11(a).  If you take a look at the answer that has been written there, that is a translation of what you wrote in the Zulu.
	I don't know personally whether it is an accurate translation, but if it is not, then you can dispute it.

MS THABETE: Can I interfere Mr Chair.  It is not a proper translation.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say it should be Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: Reading from his application in Zulu, it says even though the Chairperson of the ANC at Nhlalagahle gave the order, the aim ...

CHAIRPERSON: It is gave the order, instead of denied it?

MS THABETE: Yes, I apologise to the Committee for that.

CHAIRPERSON: In other words we should delete denied it, and say and substitute it with gave the order?

MS THABETE: Yes.

MR LAX: Can you just do this, can you just read the whole thing in Zulu and let the translator just tell us what it says.

INTERPRETER: Even though the ANC Chairperson in Nhlalagahle gave the order, but the objective was to keep the community safe.
	We were also fighting for the liberation and also seeking peace in the area.

MR LAX: Thank you very much.  Let me say, I am not for one second doubting your ability Ms Thabete, it is just better that the people who are professionals, do it.

MS THABETE: I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: That takes care of that?

MR LAX: That takes care of that issue, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Magula, had you been indulging in drinking liquor that day?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And your other comrades?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: Some of them had been drinking.

CHAIRPERSON: Who do you know had been drinking of the people that you were with?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: Xolani Pungula.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyone else?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: As well as Xolani Tsotetsi.

CHAIRPERSON: How would you describe the condition at the time of the stabbing, of Xolani Tsotetsi?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: He was not very drunk.

CHAIRPERSON: And Pungula?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: He was drunk, you could see it on his face.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising - sorry.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Chairperson, just one other aspect.  Including all the people that were involved in this killing, not just these applicants, who else was drinking or had been drinking?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: The one that I remember is Spelo Khanyile and Tutugo, those are the two people that I remember.

MR LAX: And any other of thee applicants?

MZWANDILE JUSTICE MAGULA: Just the people that I have already mentioned.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising Mr Sipho?

MR SIPHO: No, thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIPHO

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabete?

MS THABETE: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Magula, thank you.  That concludes your evidence, you may stand down.

<UNKNOWN>: .

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sipho?

MR SIPHO: Thank you, I think I have actually concluded the evidence of all the people whose applications can be heard today.  There are three other persons we dealt with earlier, whose applications can't be heard any further.
	I am not leading any further evidence at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sipho.  Ms Thabete, any further evidence?

MS THABETE: No further evidence Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Sipho, are you in a position or will you be in a position to argue or make submissions after the lunch adjournment, I see it is nearly five to one now?

MR SIPHO: Yes, that will be all right.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  This would then be a convenient time to take the lunch adjournment and then when we resume after lunch, Mr Sipho and if she so desires, Ms Thabete will make submissions to the Committee.  Thank you, we will take the lunch adjournment.

MR SIPHO: Thank you.