Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-17

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No, I see what you're trying to ask me, I can see what you are asking me, I did it that way, I did ask Harley afterwards to confirm it once again.
	The vehicle - Sergeant Raademan who was part of the back up groups at the top block of flats then contacted me by radio and told me that the vehicle was in front of the shop.  He also told me that the vehicle was turning around and driving to the back of the shop.  He also told me that we must lie flat on the roof because he can see some of our people on the roof.  Then I asked that we should maintain silence on the radios and I told everybody on the roof to lie flat because the vehicle was coming towards us.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you saw this vehicle that evening?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I saw it at night.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes the night?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say that Fouche said that it was stolen that night?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you also said that Fouche said that he was not present when this happened?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And that's a lie?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That he lied?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But you the following morning saw the same vehicle?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes I saw the same vehicle but the fact that I said there that he told a lie, I only found that out later but when he gave me the information that he was not present, it seems that it was not the truth, that he was present with the robbery of this vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: But you saw the vehicle, you established that it was stolen?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: The first time not, the second yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The second time you did establish that it was stolen and the next morning you see the same vehicle that you saw that evening at the scene?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you ask again then, I don't understand it Mr de Ru.

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I understand the problem that you've got.  I did not see the vehicle, I only saw it when it stopped at us.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that you saw it at approximately midnight?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes I did see it at midnight.

CHAIRPERSON: Why would you then think it's a different vehicle?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Fouche's information that they would come with a Honda, they did not come with a Honda, they came with a Cressida.  You will see later in my statement that Colonel Swanepoel the next morning asked me it is not a Honda because I said they were coming with a Honda.

MR MALAN: Mr de Ru, what the Chairperson is saying to you is that you were aware of the fact that it was a yellow Cressida?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes that is correct.

MR MALAN: You were aware of the fact that Fouche will stop with the yellow Cressida in front of the garage, would get out, take his jacket and put it in the boot?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That is correct.

MR MALAN: You get the message from the guard that you put out that the sign was given?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That is correct.

MR MALAN: You know from them that it is Fouche that stopped with the yellow Cressida so there's no reason for you to go and find out if it was stolen or not because already the information was given to you and it was confirmed that it was stolen.  Why once again go and ask if it was stolen?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: The only reason I can give is with this 280 there was now official investigation and that this docket was opened.  I think it was submitted and is part of the documents.

MR MALAN: Let me ask it this way, I'm sorry to interrupt you, what's the difference if it was stolen at all because here people come to commit a robbery, you want to arrest them while committing this act, what's the difference if it was stolen or not stolen?  At that stage what has it got to do with the arrest?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes it is probably true but for me it was important that it must be confirmed that it is the same vehicle.

MR MALAN: Okay.

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: The vehicle stopped right underneath us.  We agreed with the member who stood on the right hand side of the roof that if Fouche moves past him he must throw a shock grenade, that was a sign that Fouche was safely past him and that would - or my intention was then that the people in the vehicle would then hand themselves over.  The member who was lying next to me had also a shock grenade and he would also throw it.  The shock grenade on the right hand side was thrown as well as the one on the left hand side.  Two explosions occurred shortly after each other.  Directly after these explosions shots were fired.  I realised that we are being attacked and the only place where these shots can come from is from the vehicle because there were no other people that could have fired.  There were no other people in that direction from where the shots came from except the people who were in the vehicle from right underneath us.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: It sounded as if it was directly underneath us.
I realised that we were being attacked.

MR MALAN: Can you explain this to me - you hear shots and then you realised that you are being attacked?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I would like you to understand what happened.

MR MALAN: Yes I want to.

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: We threw the shock grenades.  After that my whole planning was that we would tell these people that they must hand themselves over.  You must realise that we realised that they were dangerous people, that is why we also wanted Fouche to get out of the vehicle because we were scared that if we act with Fouche in the vehicle he could be killed.  If they shoot him or we shoot him, if the attack starts we realise at that stage that these people were involved in attacks on Police and it was no problem for them to kill.  When the shock grenades exploded, at that second I had no other idea but that we were being shot at.

MR MALAN: That who was being shot?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: We, on the roof.  The vehicle was as far from us as from where Advocate Steenkamp is.  There are ten people with me and their lives are in danger.

MR MALAN: You are on the roof so the vehicle is approximately 15 feet or more underneath you?

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: No.  If you look at the photograph, that is why I'm saying no, it was not that far from us.

MR MALAN: Look at page 48, photograph 2 from your bundle.

JACOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes, I could possibly just say that you see the roof at the top there where it looks as if there's two figures on the roof?  It is not that roof, please page to page 51, can you see the part that looks like a corrugated iron roof?  We were there, then you will see that behind that there's another part of the roof so we were very close to this vehicle and there are colour photographs that were taken by the Police, I do not know if it's available.

MR MALAN: We will look at it yes, thank you.