Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-16

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: As I had already explained Mike Meyers got out of the car and was shot by my comrade and fell on the ground. After the sound of the shooting the people around the area were shocked and were looking at the place of incident. I said to my comrade that he must get into the car and drive off. Donne was in the car. I think she was unconscious by then. We then drove off and went to Thanduxolo in Mbashe. I reported to Thanduxolo how the whole operation went. I reported to him that it did not go according to plan. We left Mike Meyers behind. However he had been shot, we were not able to take him into the car. Therefore we brought the girl. Thanduxolo just said she would be useless she had already been injured.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it that was she?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Thanduxolo then took a .38 and finished her off.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee which .38, you also had a .38 and I understand even Mike Meyers had his own .38? Whose .38 was he using in finishing Donne Meyers?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I cannot remember which one was used between the two. However they used one of those. I just cannot remember exactly which one but one of them was used.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee after Donne had been shot what happened thereafter?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: After we got there we left her with Thanduxolo. Thanduxolo then said we must leave with the truck. On the way to Idushua we were arrested by the police.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Where was it that time, the .38? The gun which you were using?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: The one I had was my own. It was given to me by Thanduxolo. Then my co-accused had the other one.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now (...intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry was your co-accused armed with a .38 is that Zama?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: He was armed with the home-made rifle. However when we got Meyers' weapon he dropped his own rifle and used the .38. He did not use it, he had it with him. He took Mike Meyers' .38.

MR LAX: When and how did you find this Mike Meyers' .38? You have not told us where you got it from or how you got it or when you got it.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: We got it from his car.

MR LAX: Yes and the rest, when? At what stage did you find it in the car?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: We got it whilst we were in Mbashe.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened to it?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I am not sure which one was used between the two .38's. However Thanduxolo found it as he was checking the car to see if he can get anything from the car.

CHAIRPERSON: So he found it, Thanduxolo? So Thanduxolo found it?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did he do with it?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: After he found it he told me that he had gotten this .38. I then also checked the car to see if I can get something else. And then I heard a noise, he was shooting. This happened very quickly. After he had shot he said that we must move quickly. I then moved with my co-accused.

CHAIRPERSON: But what happened to the .38 that he apparently used to shoot with?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I am not sure whether he used Mike Meyers' .38. But between these two revolvers there is one that he used to shoot the girl. I think it is Mike Meyers' one.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened to it after that?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: He gave it to us so that we could defend ourselves. We left with it then the police confiscated it.

CHAIRPERSON: So the police took it?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.

MR LAX: I am sorry to harp on a gruesome detail but how many times did fire with the firearm?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Thanduxolo?

MR LAX: Yes.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I just one big sound.

MR LAX: One big sound?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes.

MR LAX: So you could not distinguish whether there were more than one shot or not? Is that what you trying to say?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I might have forgotten, that is the problem. However there was a big sound. I do not know exactly how many. This happened in 1993. I cannot remember clearly. It is almost 5 years.

MR LAX: It was not like rapid fire of automatic though?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: No it was either a single shot or a shot one after another.

MR LAX: Well if you heard a big noise and you only heard a shot it could only have been one shot. Otherwise you would know as a soldier what more than one shot sounds like. You must have been on many shooting ranges to hear that and you used firearms yourself.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Some times it can be confusing. You can perceive that there has been one shot meanwhile there have been two. In that kind of position your instincts perhaps do not function well. Everything happened very quickly. You do not take particular note of things. Like a camera, a camera records everything. In the situation that I was in you could not keep all the information.

MR LAX: So you do not know how many shots were fired then? If some one were to say for example three or four shots were fired you would not be able to dispute that?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: If somebody would say that I cannot dispute it. And this evidence I cannot dispute that. However if somebody then again said that the person only shot once and the evidence was as such, I would agree with that.

MR LAX: No I hear you. Now at the time you arrived and you met up with Thanduxolo, this was near the Mbashe River right?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Correct.

MR LAX: Tell us exactly what happened piece by piece, from that time you arrived to the time Donne was shot? Won't you just give us a clear breakdown of it?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: We got there. Thanduxolo's car was already there. Thanduxolo had said we were going to meet at Mbashe. His car was there, I went to him and gave him a report when we got there. I told him how the operation went and then said there is a female Boer in the car. He said that we must take her and we did that. We took her over the fence. After we had taken her over the fence Thanduxolo was busy searching the truck. He came back saying that he had found a pistol. I know that farmers carry more than one pistol at a time. I then thought I should also go and check. Perhaps when he found the pistol he got excited. I got to the truck. My co-accused followed. I checked, I did not find anything. Whilst I was checking I heard the noise. After I heard the noise, Thanduxolo came to us almost immediately saying that we must move from the area. My co-accused and I drove away in the truck and we were arrested on our way to Idushua.

MR LAX: At this stage was, at the time you arrived there was Thanduxolo's car parked on the side of the road?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Please repeat your question?

MR LAX: At the time you arrived there at Mbashe for your rendezvous, was Thanduxolo's vehicle parked on the side of the road?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: It had been there already by the road.

MR LAX: So it was just, where was it on the tar, on the side of the tar?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: You do not find tar roads in a rural area, it is gravel road. There is no tar there, it was rural area.

MR LAX: Was it in the road, was it on the side of the road, was it right off the road? That is what we are trying to understand from you?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Thanduxolo's car?

MR LAX: Well which other car am I talking about my friend?

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: I want to explain something to you before I answer.

MR LAX: Just we talking about Thanduxolo's car. We talking about that car.

LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: Yes it was there next to the road.

MR LAX: Okay. Now you said Donne was unconscious when you left the place where the first shooting took place. That is why you left her in the car. She was unconscious. In the truck rather.