Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-07

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: It referred to all what I applied for, I can't remember now.  I just want to remind you, this is 1991, I don't think even Rashid was back in the country then, people were still scattered all over the world as a result of apartheid.  People hadn't come back yet, so if you're going to look at this letter by itself to give you any indication of whatever you want, it's  ... (indistinct) really old water.

CHAIRPERSON: But as far as you can recall, Mr McBride, you applied for indemnity in terms of the Indemnity Act in respect of ...(intervention)

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Everything, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: All the operation, all your operations and activities.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I think I listed them count for count for the indictment.  There was still at this stage, there was still an arms struggle.  There was still, it had only have been suspended, in fact there was still a war.  We had only had just a truce with the government.  Please bear in mind all those things when you ask questions about this.

MR RICHARD: When did the African National Congress first acknowledge that you were acting under direct orders to carry out the event that has now become known as the Why Not/Magoo's car bomb?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: When it became necessary for whatever reason or reasons of negotiation, to do so.

MR RICHARD: When was that?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I cannot remember, probably during the same period.  Before then, the ANC was banned and I was in death row.  They wouldn't do anything to endanger my life.

MR DEHAL: Sorry Mr Chairperson, I'm at a loss to understand what the relevance of this is.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Yesterday in his evidence, Mr McBride made the comment in relation to page 76 and page 77 of bundle, or volume A1, that the affidavit filed by Mr Ismail was the first time, the fact that he was acting under direct orders, been acknowledged, if I recall correctly.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Let me just remind you about something which might help you.  In 1987 or 88 the ANC was negotiating with the Zimbabwean government for exchange of prisoners.  Myself, including  Sharpeville 6 were on the list and three other comrades who were on death row with me, to be changed for the apartheid spies who were sent over to do sabotage in the neighbouring states, so that is an indication the ANC was already embracing me at that early stage, when I was on death row, as one of their own.

MR RICHARD: I then ...(intervention)

JUDGE PILLAY: Does it matter, Mr Richard, when that acknowledgement was made, unless you're saying it was never made?

MR RICHARD: When it comes to argument as to the value and relevance of the various reports, including the evidence referred to by Mr Dehal yesterday at the Armed Forces hearing, to have the chronology is correct is of importance in the argument, but I have the information that I need.  So, my next point related to the Edendale Hospital escape.  I don't think we understood each other clearly yesterday.  The situation that we find ourselves in there can be summed up this way:  There's a conflict between the factual versions put up by you and by Mr Visagie.  Now I outlined Mr Visagie's version yesterday.  Now, Mr Visagie's attitude is simple.  He wanted me to make sure that his version was put into the record of these proceedings, this Hearing and to see whether we could resolve the conflict between your version and his version.  My question there is:  If Mr Visagie's attitude to amnesty is as outlined, would your opinions of his version of the facts change?

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, I did not want to object earlier.  My difficulty is whenever I do, Mr Richard says I should have rather waited until he finished his question.  I've heard his question now fully.  This morning when Mr Richard and I talked, he explained to me that he had approached the Panel in chambers and sought permission to have a second bite at the cherry.  He led me to believe that this would be confined to the Klein issue.  I see that he's traversed on the Why Not aspect and now on the Edendale aspect.  A level of latitude I concede is necessary, but I think this is now getting a little too far.  The Edendale aspect, pertinently to this question, was raised yesterday, answered yesterday.  I in fact objected at some level even yesterday to this aspect and I think this is now the third, perhaps the fourth bite to the cherry.

CHAIRPERSON: We've had that exact question already put I think, Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: I have done what Mr Visagie wanted and put his version to the witness and asked for comment and I think we have the answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Because yesterday Mr McBride disputed Mr Visagie's version about him not having yet drawn his arm before he was shot.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions, if I'm not going to go down the Edendale conflict of fact.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: I don't think it will take us any further to really go any further than I've done.

CHAIRPERSON: You did place on record that there is that conflict.  So have you finished now?

MR RICHARD: I have, Chairperson, thank you, I am indebted for the indulgence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Dehal, do you have any re-examination?

MR DEHAL: Yes, Sir, but very briefly.  Thank you.

MR DEHAL: Mr McBride, yesterday you talked about your politicisation within Wentworth, you refer to Allan Taylor and you refer to Setchabas that you received, you listened to Radio Freedom, etc.  Would you explain what Radio Freedom is and how these aspects, all three put together, politicised you?

CHAIRPERSON: Also, just for record purposes, Allan Taylor's residence, was that a students' hostel at the Medical Faculty of the Natal University?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Yes, Sir, first year and at a stage previously second year medical classes were held there also.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: But students from other faculties lived there also.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, I just wanted that for record, so it wasn't confused with a Mr Taylor's house, or something like that.

MR DEHAL: And Radio Freedom?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Radio Freedom was with - the official policy release of the ANC which was broadcast from various neighbouring countries.

MR DEHAL: Known as the Voice of the ANC in Exile?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That's correct.  It was quite militant, it usually started off with automatic weapon firing.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  Yesterday you were questioned in regard to the Chamberlain Road incident, about the photograph of the person, the injured person, who arrived here, with whom you've reconciled and whose photo features on a newspaper cutting.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: That's correct.

MR DEHAL: Now you were questioned about whether there were any contacts with journalists etc.  Can you venture a reason, or some explanation, how that photo might possibly have come in?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: Well, as I already have said ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think he said that already, he said that journalists sometimes had illegal access to the police radios and they often followed police when they were on the go, but if there's anything you wish to add.

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I just will add that perhaps the police themselves took the photo, because they usually went on investigation with video cameras and still cameras.

MR DEHAL: And in this case, in the Chamberlain Road Issue, the first explosion had gone off and the Security Police had arrived at the scene, surely with those cameras and video cameras, you say?

ROBERT JOHN MCBRIDE: I would imagine they would have had it with them.