Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: It is because I had been tortured and I felt very bad and I felt that I wasn't going to cooperate with the police in any manner whatsoever, so I was deliberately misleading them because they didn't want to accept what I was saying, they wanted their own statement.

MR VALLY: Let's go on to your next statement.  Do you recall someone from the TRC coming to see you, no before that, before the TRC, you were visited by Mr Moodley and Mr Hesslinga in connection with this incident in 1995, do you recall that?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I would like to tell you about Mr Moodley and Hesslinga.  When I was convicted they came ... (intervention)

MR VALLY: Just answer the question.  The fist question is did they come and see you?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, Hesslinga came as well as Moodley.

MR VALLY: Was it approximately in July 1995?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I wouldn't know the month.

MR VALLY: Well, we have given your Attorney a statement dated the 30th of July 1995.  Do you recall making a statement to them, to Mr Moodley?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: We had an altercation with Mr Moodley.  I gave him half the statement and I couldn't continue.

MR VALLY: In this statement you give details of being with a Mr Mdlalosi, drinking and Mr Botha came to you and said do you want money.  You go into a story about how you went to a house in Orlando and this is when you met Mrs Winnie Mandela, as you put it.  Do you recall the statement?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, Mr Mdlalosi made a mistake.

MR VALLY: I am not sure what you are referring to  but did you say that Botha came to fetch you?  The only name you have here is Botha, that Botha came to fetch you and took you to Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela's house?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, that is true.

MR VALLY: You are also referring to Katiza showing you where the surgery was and identifying Dr Asvat to you?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: That is true.

MR VALLY: You further go on to say that you went to the surgery, Mbatha gave his name.  He was called, you heard shots, you saw Mbatha coming out?  Do you recall that?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, I do.

MR VALLY: Then you talk about how you didn't get your money and you were told to come back and you were arrested before you went back, do you recall that?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No.

MR VALLY: So you are saying that some of the things that you told Mr Moodley in July 1995 are true and some are not true?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.  Moodley also tortured me so I did not want to tell him the truth, nor cooperate with him.

MR VALLY: When you made the statement in July 1995, were you tortured to make the statement?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Not at that particular time, but because he tortured me in the first instance, I did not want to have any further dealings with him.

MR VALLY: You then made the statement to the TRC in September of this year, do you recall that?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, I do.

MR VALLY: In this statement you say that after your arrest you voluntarily made a statement at Brixton Murder and Robbery squad.  In my statement I admitted that Dr Asvat was killed by me and Cyril.  Further it was not my intention to kill him, but that I had been hired to do so by Winnie Mandela.
 Further that Winnie promised to pay us R20 000-00 for our operation.

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, that is what I said.

MR VALLY: Now you say in September 1997 to the TRC that you made your statement voluntarily to the police at Brixton Murder and Robbery squad and now you tell us, late November, early December 1997, that you did not make it voluntarily.  Can you explain why?  I am talking about the first statement to the police?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I have said that I was tortured into making that statement.  Some of the information I volunteered, but to obstruct the ends of justice, I decided not to divulge all the information that I had at my disposal.

MR VALLY: Let's go on.    You also say in your statement to the Truth Commission's investigators, and I quote, during our murder trial my statement was not produced before court.  When I enquired about it from Hesslinga and Moodley, I was ordered to keep quiet, can you tell me about this?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes.  What made me not to want to testify in court is that reason.  I asked as to where the statement I made to Moodley and Hesslinga was, and Hesslinga said to me you must just shut up and he told me that he was going to take me back to the electric shocks for me to be electrocuted.  I don't know whether it is (indistinct) or what.  That is why I did not continue to pursue the matter with regard to my statement.

MR VALLY: Your statement to the Truth Commission, paragraph 52, this is your words "during the trial I and Cyril pleaded alibis on the advice of my pro deo counsel, Jan de Villiers, and that of Cyril.
 From Cyril's statement he was at that stage denying that he ever admitted having shot Dr Asvat, whilst in my company.  We did not disclosed in court that we had been hired by Winnie Mandela to kill Dr Asvat, because we were pleading alibi.  Do you recall that?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I have no knowledge of that allegation.

MR VALLY: Do you recall giving an interview to the Mail & Guardian?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: No, I don't remember because we don't have time for reporters in that prison where I am at the present moment.

MR VALLY: In your statement to the TRC you say in paragraph 60, on the 2nd of September 1997, I was approached by a reporter which posed as a TRC official and to who I narrated the very same story which to my surprise appeared in the newspapers, thus jeopardising my prison life.
 The same reporter also informed me that he had also made it possible for Richardson to communicate with the TRC.  Lastly the said reporter said Mr Joubert would come to see me in connection with my statement.  Do you recall all this?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, there was a person who came to me.  I do not know as to who this person is and I do not know as to where he came from.

MR VALLY: Do you recall making a statement to the reporter from the Mail & Guardian?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: To the journalist?  The journalist said he's got another statement from Brixton.  He approached me with that statement, that is all I know about him.

MR VALLY: You didn't speak to him?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, we did speak and at some stage I left him.

MR VALLY: Then we come to your final statement which your Attorney let us have this morning.  I put it to you, I don't have to go through your statement, your Attorney has led you extensively on it, that there are a number of contradictory details all along the line.  Your first statement to the police, your first statement where you gave an explanation for your plea, your argument in the Supreme court itself as to your responsibility for the murder of Dr Asvat, your subsequent statement in July 1995 to Mr Moodley, your subsequent article in the Mail & Guardian and finally your statement to us today.
 I put it to you that since you have applied for amnesty, you are trying to justify your amnesty application by trying to create a political motivation for the murder of Dr Asvat.

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: I did not motivate my application and said I had a political motive, but I am speaking the truth.

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Dlamini.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Dlamini, you have just confirmed that it must take a little bit of intelligence to lie honestly and convincingly.  Now, let me ask you the first question.
 Is the statement given to us today through your lawyer, a correct statement?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: Yes, that is a correct statement.

MR SEMENYA: Is that statement true in all its details?

THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: That is my statement.