Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-15

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Okay, during the time before the 12th of April 1991, one of the requests from Mr Mbotoli was also try to find out if Gen Holomisa has got some Swiss banking accounts, because there were rumours that Gen Holomisa might be corrupt or might have funding on Swiss bank accounts.  Mr Mbotoli was interested to find out something about this.  We agreed that we have to set something up relatively quickly and I approached a friend of mine and asked him if I could use his house for a business meeting in the evening, which was not a strange request because at the time, I lived in a very small house and for business reasons, sometimes I asked friends if I could use their facilities.  So I phoned this friend and said may I use your house for an important business meeting, and he said yes.  Then I spoke to the people involved, they must get ready and I tried to contact Mr Mbotoli and left messages for him to phone me and under the pretext that I have got some gentleman from a Swiss bank here, which might have the information that he wants to know about Gen Holomisa.

MR MAZAHAM: At this stage could you please place on record, what your understanding was, who was going to be assisting you and from where did your actual orders originate?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Well, as far as I am concerned, the whole operation was controlled by Colonel Mzwaiba in his function as Head of Military Intelligence of the Transkei.

MR MAZAHAM: Who was seconded to you to assist you in fulfilling this objective?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: There was a team seconded from Transkei Military Intelligence.  As I said earlier, the whole operation took I think about four months and during this period, the team that was in Johannesburg, respectively in Pretoria, changed from time to time, but if I recall correctly the team was approximately four, five people.

MR MAZAHAM: Does the Commission require that we actually identify the parties at this stage Judge?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, if you can, then do so.

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Would it be detrimental to my application if I would prefer not to mention names?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, are you talking about names of these operatives?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: One is meant to make a full disclosure, it will be better if you could.

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Because I was told that the whole operation was a military operation, and it fell and falls under the State Secrets Act.  I would like to get, Mr Chairman, your advice in this regard, how would this be applicable or not in this circumstances?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I doubt whether that Act is in existence any more.

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: In fact, it is not in existence any more, so it is not covered by the legislation.

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: The operation was initiated and controlled by Colonel Mzwaiba, I think at that stage if he was still Major, I don't know what the actual rank at the time was.  In the Johannesburg area, were Mr Mkuduga, Lieutenant Kalani.  We had logistic assistance by Colonel Chinga because he was at the time at the Embassy in Pretoria and another gentleman was there, which I only knew by the name of Zibulelo and I think there might have been another person from Military Intelligence, a Corporal, but I can't remember his, that one I can't remember his name any more.

MR MAZAHAM: Thank you.  Then if we actually get to the day...

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Sorry, may I interrupt, I would like to stipulate one thing.  I was made to understand that the operation was sanctioned by the then Gen Holomisa, however, I at that stage and afterwards, I never ever discussed that operation with Gen Holomisa other than that I took Colonel Mzwaiba's word for it that it came from Gen Holomisa.  I cannot say that I had instructions from Gen Holomisa.

MR SIBANYONI: I notice that in your application you are saying it was with his express approval and consent, the operation was with his express approval and consent.

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Okay, that was what I was made to understand.  What I am trying to say is this, I was told the approval came right from the top, but Gen Holomisa, at the whole time, never spoke to me and I assumed that Colonel Mzwaiba as the Head of Military Intelligence, would not do anything without the approval of the Chairman of the Military Council, along that line.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mazaham.

MR MAZAHAM: In your prior dealings with Transkei and the Military Intelligence, did you have direct access to Gen Holomisa?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I never had before any direct dealings with, person to person dealings with Gen Holomisa.  The only time when I had one, not one to one, but face to face meeting with Gen Holomisa, must have been 1993 at a time when I was in exile in the Transkei.  I never had before face to face meeting with Gen Holomisa.

MR MAZAHAM: In so far as your disclosure in your application was concerned then, as to the express consent of Gen Holomisa, are we now led to understand that in fact you believed it had his direct consent, based on representations made to you by the Colonel?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Based on the representation made to me by the Colonel and based on the fact that all the other players, except me, were members of the Transkei Defence Force.  I assumed that that is the case.

MR MAZAHAM: If we could then get to the actual day in question, what subsequently transpired?

CHAIRPERSON: The day of the kidnapping.

MR MAZAHAM: The day of the kidnapping?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Yes, so everything was set up at the house.  I tried to phone Mr Mbotoli and I think twice I left a message because he was out of his office, or out of the house, and I think it must have been about seven o'clock in the evening, I managed to get hold of him.   I spoke to him on the phone and I said to him, I've got somebody here from Switzerland from a bank, and he might have information for him which he requested, if he wants to come and if that, I would pick him up and bring him to my house.  Mr Mbotoli at that stage did not know where my house was, other than the general area.  I picked up Mr Mbotoli, I also seeing that I was pretending that this is my house, I asked my then girlfriend, now wife, if she wouldn't mind just, I have got some business meeting going on, if she wouldn't mind just sort of serving drinks, etc and come along, which she agreed without knowing what was happening.  Then I went to pick up Mr Mbotoli in Oxford Road in Rosebank.  We drove to the house, we went to the bar at the house and we had drinks.  I think it was Coca Cola, I am not sure, but it definitely was non-alcoholic.  Then I stood up to get something from the kitchen, which was the sign for the people which were in the house, to come and take Mr Mbotoli.  For that reason we had received from the Transkei, from Colonel Mzwaiba, some chloroform and some injections which we were told, the anaesthetic type injections which will knock out Mr Mbotoli for about two hours at a time, and we had, if I am not mistaken, about five of them, which were meant to be injected to keep Mr Mbotoli sedated for the trip.  Mr Mbotoli was then, I don't know what the proper English word is, knocked out with a cotton full of chloroform, was disarmed and injected with the anaesthetics which we found out at the time, did not work properly.  He was taken into a car, there were two or three cars involved.  I don't know at this stage, there was a minimum of two cars, it might have been three cars, and the cars drove away towards - via Durban, towards Port St Johns, where Mr Mbotoli was taken to the Special Forces base on the top of Port St Johns.  I, myself, stayed behind, I was not involved on the trip.

MR MAZAHAM: After the actual kidnapping, was there any acknowledgement from Transkei to you, was there any communication to you to thank you or to express appreciation or any response for your role in this incident?