Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-13

MR WITZ: Mr Chairman, in regard to this matter, as far as I know and as far as I'm instructed he hasn't applied for amnesty at all.  He's denied this and it has already been read into the record - his reply to Mr Coetzee's allegation ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm aware if that.

MR WITZ: You're aware of that.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm aware of the letter that has been written on his behalf.

MR WITZ: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: In which he puts this denial and we are aware that it's on the record as far as we are concerned.

MR WITZ: Well it can be taken as read into the record.

CHAIRPERSON: It will be.

MR WITZ: Then Mr Chairman, as I previously stated we would need a ruling in this regard as to whether or not Mr Coetzee's evidence should be tested in regard to his implication. He's the only witness now who supposedly implicates Lieutenant General Neethling in these atrocities which were committed by Mr Coetzee himself, together with other members of the South African Police Services.

CHAIRPERSON: Insofar as your client is implicated, in other words whether your client supplied Mr Coetzee with what he claims he received from your client.

MR WITZ: That is correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And we've got your client's denial on that.

MR WITZ: You have his denial.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR WITZ: But Mr Chairman, I need some clarity in regard to what weight of evidence or what admissibility this Commission and yourself Mr Chairman, and your fellow members will be according to what Mr Coetzee has said.  In other words whether his evidence must be tested by myself together with my other colleagues and what the position is in regard to his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, if you wish to put questions to him about your client's denial, you may do so.

MR WITZ: The problem that I have there Mr Chairman, I've received instructions specifically from my attorney who was under the impression - and in fact that is why himself as well as my counsel who is in the matter went back to Pretoria, that they would need some type of notice.
	We were under the impression that Mr Coetzee would not be called in this particular matter.  That is the impression we were put under and it was only at a very late stage in the day, approximately twenty to four yesterday afternoon that the Committee came to a decision that in the interests of this Commission, Mr Coetzee would be called.

CHAIRPERSON: So I understand from what you're saying, is that you're not in a position to cross-examine Mr Coetzee, is that what you're saying?

MR WITZ: That is correct.  Other than I can put the denial and I can - as you've already taken, read into the record what you've already taken as accepted in the previous application.  That is all that I'm instructed to do but if the need is for further cross-examination and Mr Coetzee's version has to be tested, then I'm not in the position, I'm not instructed to cross-examine until my instructing attorney and Advocate Cilliers return if it is needed to do this cross-examination.
	It's also going to involved distance, various expenses, inconvenience to all the other parties and it was purely on this understanding - that is why they went back to Pretoria, that Mr Coetzee was not going to be called.  And we need  to know entirely at this stage what the status is of Mr Coetzee's evidence only in regards to my client, not the other four applicants obviously.

CHAIRPERSON: The weight that we might attach or not attach to the evidence given by Mr Coetzee on whether he received any medication or any substance from your client, is a matter on which we at this stage cannot decide.
	We'll have to consider that in the light of the entire evidence that has been given.  If we come to the conclusion that we would like to hear your client's version on the matter then we will make arrangements for that to happen.  But I think at this stage my prima facie view of my colleague who sat with me in the previous case, is that we will not require your client to give evidence and we have placed on record what he has to say in that regard.

MR WITZ: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'm happy with that decision.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, thank you.
	Mr Jansen, I'll give you a few minutes break to decide whether you wish to put any questions that you might wish to, either to elaborate answers that he has given if you wish to or clear up whatever you think you might want to clear up.

MR JANSEN: Yes, there are a couple of matters that I want to clear up Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  We'll take a short adjournment ...[indistinct]

MR JANSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR JANSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetzee, you appreciate you are still under oath?

DIRK COETZEE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

JANSEN: Mr Coetzee, in the latter part of 1981 you had the rank of Captain, is that correct?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: When did you become a Captain?

DIRK COETZEE: In April 1980 Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: When did you take over the command of Vlakplaas?

DIRK COETZEE: In August 1980 Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Now, I think it's matter of record that as far as your application is concerned and as far as your Vlakplaas applications are concerned, there's one incident in January 1981:  the Pillay case, there's one incident which you allege is round about the 4th of August: The Union Kombi and another one, 3 September which is the burning of certain vehicles in the Eastern Cape, the so-called Hippie vehicles and the rest are after 11 September, is that correct?

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Mr Chairman, if I may just - I promised you at a previous occasion the typed record of that letter, if I could maybe just hand it to the Committee members now and to the other people.
	It's an extract form the Harms Commission, simply repeating the content of that letter of 11 September.  It's written - it's not read in as a whole but portion by portion but it's apparent from these pages.

MR JANSEN: Now, was - before you took over at Vlakplaas, was it previously operating on the same basis that it operated eventually under your command?

DIRK COETZEE: No, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] this document will go in as Exhibit C.

MR JANSEN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Sorry Mr Chairman, that should be E - sorry, D - D for donkey.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Yes, do carry on.

MR JANSEN: The animosity and - well, I suppose the serious personal differences that there were between you and certain of the police officials which related to your departure from the police force, did that involve any of the individuals in this application?

DIRK COETZEE: Not at all Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: When did you first become aware that it is alleged that Mr Roy Otto was involved in this incident?

DIRK COETZEE: Only on preparing for this hearing of the applicants Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: From what did you become aware that Roy Otto was alleged to be involved?

DIRK COETZEE: From the statements that the applicants have submitted to us and the Committee Mr Chairman.

MR JANSEN: Did you take any steps at that stage to see how it accorded with your evidence at Harms describing the physical features of the person shooting?

DIRK COETZEE: I did, I contacted a former police constable Frans van Jaarsveld.  A friend of mine knew him very well and described him as bald, short, stockily built, with a coarse croaky voice.

MR JANSEN: Prior to September 1981 - in your entire police career and after you left Vlakplaas, were you ever at any other stage at the Jeffrey's Bay police station?

DIRK COETZEE: Never Mr Chairman, only once and that was that evening with the Audi, never again and never before.