Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-04

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, the Boipatong matter was conveyed to us by the leadership at a meeting.

MR LOWIES: Well I'll leave it at that, I'd like to turn to another aspect.  Stripped of all the titles, the simple fact regarding Mr Themba Khosa is the following.  He was a leader in the Vaal area, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: And we have your version and I emphasis your version that Themba Khosa actually approved of the attack on Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct, he did approve of it.

MR LOWIES: So on your version we have the following then. Chief Minister Buthelezi, leader of the IFP, approved of the meeting plus Themba Khosa, leader in the Transvaal or in the Vaal, approved of the attack in Boipatong, on your version?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: And on your version, not everything that leadership decide is always conveyed, some of it is kept secret, a good example is that a decision regarding two things.  One, when Boipatong should be attacked and two, that the specific place Boipatong should be attacked, correct?  Those were excluded at that stage and was only revealed at a very late stage.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, as I mentioned before they said we should attack the place but they did not specify the date.

MR LOWIES: And having regard to this, what we've just said, one can understand that it would not be always public knowledge to all the applicants exactly what was decided by the general leadership pertaining to the attacks on the Vaal, correct?  Because you would simply not know, not everything?
Do you agree?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: And it is not a matter of you hiding something from this Commission that you didn't know, it's just a simple matter of you as a normal member do not know specifics, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: And even you yourself, if I ask you what was decided at this leadership meeting, you would not know all the details, that would be unfair to say man, you are hiding something, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes but with regards to the IFP meeting on Boipatong we were informed of the attack although they did not mention the date.

MR LOWIES: Ja, exactly illustrates the point, not everything is always conveyed to everybody.  So we agree with each other?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: You said to us previously in your evidence that you were a resident of Boipatong at some stage?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not say that I resided in Boipatong, you must have misunderstood me.  Yes I stayed in Everton.

MR LOWIES: But you had some problems with the residents of Boipatong in the past, or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I said I no personal grudge against the people of Boipatong, it was only the people of Everton with  whom I had problems.

MR LOWIES: How far is Everton from Boipatong more or less?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is a distance from Boipatong, I cannot estimate just how far it is but Boipatong is closer to Iscor.

MR LOWIES: Can you walk from Boipatong to Everton in an hour or less - I'm not sure, sorry, I just want to get a point here, maybe you can help us?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot give you an estimate.

MR LOWIES: No problem.  Would you agree that Everton is in the Vaal area?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes it is.

MR LOWIES: Now what were the problems that you had with the residents of Everton?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The problem I had was that I had friends who were ANC members.  There was a garage that was burnt down in Everton and it so happened that it was my friends who had burnt it and I was also implicated in that incident but I had not partaken in that incident, I was innocent.  The comrades from Everton got hold of me and they took me to the garage and they locked me up in the toilet at the garage.  Thereafter they went to the garage's owner and spoke to him.  A certain girl who I cannot remember, whose name I cannot remember, asked me why I was locked up in the toilet.  I explained to her what my problem was.  She then opened the toilet back window and that is how I escaped.  That is how I arrived at KwaMadala Hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned ANC friends and you also mentioned the comrades.  Now who was accused of having burnt down the garage?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The ANC supporters alleged that it was myself and my friends who had burnt down the garage but I was not present when this happened.  The comrades looked for me and they found me and captured me and took me to the garage.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are these comrades, I mean are these the comrades who were your friends?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, some of my friends had not been present in the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so is the position that certain comrades burnt down a garage?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes ANC supporters.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were not part of that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I did not take part.

CHAIRPERSON: And those other comrades who had not taken part in the burning of the garage accused you of having taken part in the burning of the garage?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes they implicated me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Now are the comrades ANC members?  I don't follow.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes they were ANC members.

MR LOWIES: And are you saying some of the comrades burnt the garage and some of the comrades didn't and there was a faction or an argument between the two factions?  Am I following your evidence?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that is correct and that is how I was implicated.

MR LOWIES: Were you at that stage an ANC member?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No I was not affiliated to any political organisation but I did have friends who were ANC members.

MR LOWIES: Now why would the comrades become involved in burning of garages, I don't follow that, why would the ANC want to burn garages?  It doesn't make sense.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did not say it was ANC I said it was supporters of the ANC.  When you speak of the ANC you refer to people like Oliver Tambo.  I'm just referring to the followers, those were the people who burnt the garage.  I do not know why they did it.

MR LOWIES: So do you have to be an ANC member to become a comrade or to be a comrade?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No that's not what I was saying.  You can join as a member of an organisation but what I'm saying is that the garage was burnt down by ANC followers.

MR LOWIES: And the comrades were they also ANC followers?  You're not clear on this aspect.  What is the situation?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The ANC and ANC followers are two different issues.  If I speak about the ANC I refer to people like Mandela.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, listen to the question please, what counsel wants to find out is whether were comrades members of the ANC?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: Now once they'd decided, the comrades, to lock you up, did they say to you why they are acting in this manner?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They said I was allegedly involved in the burning down of the garage.

MR LOWIES: But why would they become involved, it's not their garage or was it?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I would not be in a position to respond to that question.

MR LOWIES: Were you afraid of them?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I was afraid.

CHAIRPERSON: You see Mr Nosenga, what counsel wants to find out from you the following, the garage had been burnt down, the comrades are not members of the police force, why would they get involved in looking for people who had burnt down the garage?
	Is that what you want to find out?

MR LOWIES: That's correct, I don't follow.