Amnesty Hearings — Thohoyandou — 1999-07-12

CHAIRPERSON: My name is Judge Ronnie Pillay and I'm going to ask my colleagues here next to me to identify themselves for the purpose of the record and so too the different representatives.

ADV SIGODI: I'm Adv Sibongile Sigodi.  I am practising in the Port Elizabeth Bar.

ADV DE JAGER: I'm Adv Chris de Jager.

MR NDOU: My name is Patrick Ndou.  I am an attorney practising here in Thohoyandou.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  My name is van Rensburg S J from Kriek and van Rensburg Attorneys, Tzaneen.  In this hearing I represent the victims.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.  Ramula Patel, Leader of Evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, before we proceed I just want to mention something for everybody to hear.  We are making use of interpreters.  I don't know which languages are required other than English, but I'm sure there are.  I would advise those who are not eloquent enough in the English language to use the facilities and listen to the hearing in the language of their choice.  If there is any problem especially from those applicants or members of the families of the victims or the victims themselves, please draw my attention to it.  I trust that their legal representatives will do so.
	This is an unusual application.  It has been made a bit difficult because certain facts weren't put before us in good time.  I have had a talk to the respective representatives and explained to them what the proceedings and procedures are intended to achieve and I asked them to explain it to the various parties.  I trust that they have done so.
	Mr van Rensburg, just for the record, would you tell us what the basis for any opposition, if at all, there is before we proceed so that the applicants can deal with it if necessary?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  The basis of the opposition is basically twofold.  In the first instance the victims are of the opinion that the crimes committed by the applicants were not politically motivated as described and defined by the Act and on this point they are of the opinion that it was more witchcraft related, alternatively jealousy, that caused the crimes, meaning a personal malice element was on the foreground and then in the second place the victims are of the opinion that there was no full disclosure of the relevant facts as required by the Act.

CHAIRPERSON: On what basis do they raise the second, the applicants have not testified yet?

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is indeed a fact, I have explained to them that it can be, or that the applications can be amended and supplemented by their testimonies.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, as it stands now.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, as it stands now.

CHAIRPERSON: It implies then that that leg may just fall away eventually.

MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, it is possible.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand.  Thank you.
Mr Ndou, you may proceed.

MR NDOU: Honourable Members, firstly I wish to thank you for having given us this opportunity to come and listen to us.  What we have here, initially we had 12 applicants.  Now out of the 12 applicants, 3 applications have since been refused by the Amnesty Committee and as such, at this stage we'll keep them from the application for now.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are those 3?

MR NDOU: It's number 2727/96 Rambia D A.

CHAIRPERSON: There is a list of applicants listed on that first couple of pages.

MR NDOU: Yes,  it's the last three.

CHAIRPERSON: The last three on the first page.

MR NDOU: Yes, Rambia, Maheba and Makatho.

CHAIRPERSON: That is 2727,

MR NDOU: And 4300 and 4319.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just get that.

MR NDOU: May I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: It's actually not the last three.  They're on page 71, page 130 and page 139.

MR NDOU: Yes, that's right.  The one appearing on page 139 is the 4319.  Now as it is, although initially we had thought that it would be one application, since this matter has already gone past and it's been refused, we have decided that we, for now, will not deal with it, so we'll deal with the remaining 9.
	Now what we have done, I wish to appraise the Committee about the fact that we have prepared a background document, just to appraise the Committee about the background to this application before we can bring in individual applicants to come and testify.  We have also thought it wise to first, before we bring any applicants in, just to consolidate on the background, to bring in Prof Ralushai, who was the Chairman of the Commission into Witchcraft, Violence and other related matters, so as to give the Committee a feel about the position as it prevailed in Venda at the time.  Thank you.  May I proceed?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR NDOU: Now as background we indicate that the following further evidence will be led.  We will start way back in 1979 when the area of Venda was excised from the Republic of South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got a copy of that document you're reading from?

MR NDOU: In fact we will prepare the document later on Chair, we will make copies for you because it was hand-written, it was not typed.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you want to lead that evidence then when that is done, because it helps us follow it.

MR NDOU: There's no problem with that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, then I think you wait till you're ready with the typed copies of the document then you lead that evidence then.

MR NDOU: Okay.  Thank you. So what I'll do then is to call Prof Ralushai to come to the witness stand.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you spell his name first?

MR NDOU: R - A - L - U - S - H - A - I

CHAIRPERSON: And how do you pronounce that?

MR NDOU: Ralushai.

CHAIRPERSON: Ralushai.

MR NDOU: That's right.  And the initials V N.

CHAIRPERSON: V N.

MR NDOU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Which language would you prefer to use?

UNKNOWN: English, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you quite comfortable with English?

UNKNOWN: Fairly.

UNKNOWN: (sworn states)

MR NDOU: Prof Ralushai, we have called you here to come and testify before the Amnesty Committee about your knowledge about witchcraft matters and other related issues and I will ask you questions so that you can clarify the Committee about the position.  I understand that you were the Chairman of a Commission that had been appointed by the government to look into witchcraft matters and other related issues.  Is that correct?

UNKNOWN: Correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

MR NDOU: And when was that?

UNKNOWN: 1995, I estimate.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was in 1995?

UNKNOWN: About.

MR NDOU: Now would you explain to the Committee as to what you did when you conducted your research. What is it that you did when you conducted your research and investigation?

UNKNOWN: When the government appointed a Commission of Inquiry on Witchcraft and Violence and Ritual Murder, we were about 12.  Six people worked in Lebowa and some parts of the old Gazankulu and another six people worked in the whole Republic of Venda.
	Now how did we work?  We went to different troubled areas and in each area people were interviewed as follows:  We interviewed traditional doctors separately from certain ministers of church.

CHAIRPERSON: You said you interviewed certain traditional doctors?

UNKNOWN: Yes.  Those who were present and 2, we also interviewed members of different religious, religions, church, representing their own religious denomination.  Then also interviewed local structures such Sanco or Civics and we also interviewed other people who had agreed to form themselves into groups.  That's all I can remember.

MR NDOU: And do you still remember as to how long this process took you to finalise?

UNKNOWN: It took us roughly two years.

MR NDOU: I see.  Now I just want us to go into the definition of terms.  What would you say, what is a witch to you?

UNKNOWN: Of course there are different interpretations.  If taken from the traditional African point of view, a witch will be somebody who is capable of causing ill luck or death to the person that he doesn't want.