Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

MR HEWIT: So in effect are you saying that you received a thirteenth cheque of about R2 000-00?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: That salary, the moment you returned from the Caprivi, did you go up from R400-00 or R500-00 straight away to R2 200-00?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: And were there any increases of that salary from the time you returned from the Caprivi until the time we know you started going to the ANC?  From the time that you went to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and started talking to Mr Vanni.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Are you saying that your salary at that point in time, when you were going to speak to Mr Vanni was still R2 200-00 per month?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No.

MR HEWIT: Well, what was your salary at the time that you went to see Mr Vanni?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: It was R3 187-00.

MR HEWIT: So, in fact from the time you came back from the Caprivi your salary then was increased during the period you were in KwaZulu Natal?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Is there any particular reason why you omitted this higher salary of in excess of R3 000-00 per month from your affidavit?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would not know, but if you look at it, look at the time that I spent at Caprivi and on coming back here, that was the time when I left as you pointed out, to join the ANC.
	The salary by then had already been increased.

MR HEWIT: Please now turn to page 245 of your affidavit, which is typed page 36.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Page what?

MR HEWIT: Page 245, handwritten page 245 and typed page 36.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I can see that now.

MR HEWIT: Now, up to paragraph 13.10, that section of your affidavit is all dealing with the murder of Zazi Khuzwayo which starts on page 243 at 13.1, do you agree with me?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: Now, dealing with the events immediately after the murder of Zazi Khuzwayo, you say in paragraph 13.10 Yamile was delighted with the success of the operation and rewarded all of us, by giving us a cash amount of a couple of hundred rands each.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Why did you accept money other than your salary for assassinations or murders?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would like to explain.

MR HEWIT: Please do.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: At the time when I was at Ulundi, speaking to Mr M.Z. Khumalo about the killing of Zazi Khuzwayo at Claremont, there was no indication that I was going to be paid.
	At the time that I went to Yamile saying that we should kill Zazi for him, he too did not indicate that he was going to remunerate us.  Resulting from his excitement on receiving the news that Zazi had died, he found himself going to his safe, taking out money which he gave to us.
	He did not say that I am now thanking you because you had killed Zazi Khuzwayo, that is my answer.

MR HEWIT: You were in receipt of a salary and it was over R2 000-00 a month at least on your own version by the time you say you were sent to Yamile to deal with the Zazi Khuzwayo problem, isn't that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: Now, isn't your case that you were being paid the salary, this higher salary than the other Caprivi trainees, because it was your duty to coordinate assassinations, murders and generally cause mayhem where UDF people were concerned, isn't that your case?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: And you were receiving your salary for doing just that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: So weren't you being remunerated in any event for killing people like Mr Zazi Khuzwayo?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Would you please complete?

MR HEWIT: That is the question, weren't you being remunerated in any event, for duties or carrying out instructions as you put it, killing people like Mr Zazi Khuzwayo?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I was explaining to you that Yamile on excitement about what had happened, he gave us money.  There was no way I could have refused the money, because that was not money he had promised to give us on the death of Zazi.

MR HEWIT: You are not answering my question, I am going to repeat my question to you, until you do answer it.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Will you please repeat the question?

MR HEWIT: The question is this once again, were you not already receiving money for doing political assassinations like the one which we know now was carried on Mr Zazi Khuzwayo before you went to Yamile's home?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Who could have given me that money?

MR HEWIT: Please answer my question.

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I don't understand, would you please repeat your question.

MR HEWIT: You have told us that you received an increase in salary upon your return from the Caprivi where you went from R400-00 to R500-00 per month, to in excess of R2 000-00 per month?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: And you were continually receiving this increased salary of R2 200-00 a month or whatever it was, right up until the time you say you received an instruction to go to see Yamile about Zazi Khuzwayo problem, is that correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: So, you were receiving money to perform those kinds of duties on your version?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I would explain yet again.

MR HEWIT: Is the answer yes to my question?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I cannot do that because you have asked me a question and I must give you an answer.
	I am saying the money that you are talking about is money that used to be my work salary as a person who was working at the Inkatha offices.
	This is not connected in any way with the money that I was given by Yamile.  This is not associated and the money that I was being paid as my salary, was not a money to go and kill people.

MR HEWIT: Oh, so is your evidence that this salary of R2 200 per month was a salary given to you by Inkatha Military Intelligence or whatever else, for performing clerical type duties at the Inkatha offices?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: So, the salary then of R2 200-00 a month in the early days, was not a salary to be a Commander of an armed wing which would attack people?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: No, that is your way of seeing things.

MR HEWIT: No, I want to know from you and I want you to deal with this issue now, because it reflects upon whether you were just a simple criminal and a hit man who did this for money or whether you were really acting for reasons of ideology and furthering political views?
	We will deal with this again.  Was your salary of R2 200-00 a month when you came back from the Caprivi a salary which you received for performing clerical duties for the party?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: So in receiving that salary, you were not, that salary did not take account of any assassinations which you were to carry out?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: That salary would not encompass any duties where you led attacks on UDF people?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I don't understand, would you please repeat your question.

MR HEWIT: You weren't being paid R2 200-00 per month to throw petrol bombs in houses?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is correct.

MR HEWIT: It didn't cover that kind of extra function?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: That is correct, yes.

MR HEWIT: Your R2 200-00 a month was not being paid to you because you were to organise and coordinate the Caprivi trainees so that they would attack successfully the UDF people?