Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, I've done my bit to explain to you what our submissions are going to be.  I'm not going to take it any further.
	But, could you please turn to volume 2 of what is called Cradock 4, although we know that one of them was not from Cradock, but it's the journalese  way of establishing that label, and would you please have a look at page 284.  Written in pencil in that document.
	This is a document which was put before the Geldenhuys Committee and comes from the exhibits in the inquest held by Judge Zietsman.  Please have a look at the second paragraph.
	"At request of the Security Community and for security reasons, he on 26th November 1983, was notified by telegram that as from 1st January 1984, he would be transferred to Graaff Reinet as a teacher in mathematics and science."
	Will you accept from me that the evidence, that this comes from an affidavit, the person who made it told the court that the words "veiligheids gemeenskap" which was lightly deleted, was deliberately deleted, although the person who made the statement stood by this document as it appeared without the line across it.
	Will you accept that please?
	Now do you agree that Goniwe was transferred at the instance of the "veiligheids gemeenskap"?

MR J VAN ZYL: It happened before I arrived in Port Elizabeth, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you discuss it with your colleagues?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes.  When I arrived here in '84, ja I can remember that it was a discussion topic.  The fact that he had been transferred to Graaff Reinet.

GEORGE BIZOS: And that - it goes on to say that Goniwe saw it as a punishment.  Do you agree with that?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And the last paragraph - that he had the fullest support of the community, of the school committee and of the students in Cradock.

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes it would seem so and it seemed like that right through the time that I knew of him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Now you were in "Koevoet", Mr van Zyl.  And whose decision was it to transfer you to the Eastern Province?

MR J VAN ZYL: It was at my own request, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And to go into the Security Police?

MR J VAN ZYL: I had been in the Security Police before and "Koevoet" was regarded as a unit in the Security Police.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  And your colleague, Mr Eric Winter, was also in "Koevoet", who had seen service with you at Ovambuland?

MR J VAN ZYL: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who else that had been in "Koevoet" was sent to the Eastern Province during 1984 or 1985?

MR J VAN ZYL: There were one or two junior members, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please remind us of their names.

MR J VAN ZYL: No, Lieutenant Pickard went to "Koevoet" from Port Elizabeth.  There was a Constable or a Sergeant Loots that was transferred also in 1984 to Port Elizabeth.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is that also an applicant in this case?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Another Loots?

MR J VAN ZYL: Yes, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And who else?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, the applicant in this case is Lotz.

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon, yes of course.  I'm sorry.

MR J VAN ZYL: That is all that I can remember, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, what special qualities did "Koevoet" have that attracted you and made you suitable for transfer to the Eastern Cape in 1984/85?

MR J VAN ZYL: What special qualities did "Koevoet" have?

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, what special qualities did you possess which found favour with people to transfer you to "Koevoet" and found favour to transfer you to the Eastern Cape in 1984/85?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, that I wouldn't know, Mr Chairman.

ADV D POTGIETER: Well, why did you want to come to Port Elizabeth?

MR J VAN ZYL: Because I had already spent a number of years in Ovamboland, Mr Chairman and I just wanted to continue my career at the Security Branch, somewhere in the country.

ADV D POTGIETER: Why Port Elizabeth, why not elsewhere?

MR J VAN ZYL: I cannot remember what my reason was at the time, but it - Colonel Erasmus was in charge here and I had known him from years before and at the time that I applied for the transfer to Port Elizabeth, I don't think Colonel Erasmus had already known that he was going to be transferred away, and I can remember speaking to him whether - what the conditions were like and whether he would accept me at the branch and so on.
	He was affirmative, but during the time that I was waiting to be transferred here, he also got transferred away from here.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you working in close association with Mr Eric Winter whilst you were in "Koevoet"?

MR J VAN ZYL: As close as everybody at unit was, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you in the same unit?

MR J VAN ZYL: There is only one unit, and that is "Koevoet".  I had a team and at one stage Mr Winter had a team as well, although he was regarded as the investigations officer who handled general intelligence at the unit.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you become good friends whilst you were operating in Ovambuland in "Koevoet"?

MR J VAN ZYL: Fairly good friends, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was "Koevoet" considered an unconventional unit?

MR J VAN ZYL: Necessarily so, we were fighting a very unconventional war, Mr Chairman, and all units that were involved in counter insurgency on that level could be called unconventional, I suppose.

GEORGE BIZOS: And were there unconventional means used in order to deal with persons who were considered enemies of the State, even though they may have not been carriers of AK47's?

MR J VAN ZYL: Not so....

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, I am not so sure about the relevance.  I concede whether "Koevoet" was unconventional, but the moment we get to what happens at "Koevoet", I am beginning to fail to see the relevance of that.
	So I would object to this line of questioning going further than it did at the moment.  I didn't because obviously training in "Koevoet" and so on I think would be relevant.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, without wanting to predict what Mr Bizos is intending to do, perhaps I am going to invite him to argue the point.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, let me try and give you a few more details from which the drift of my questioning may become more relevant, Mr van
Zyl.
	Was Sergeant Hough and Chris Labuschagne, were they also in "Koevoet".

MR J VAN ZYL: I don't know who you are talking about.  Sergeant who Sir?

GEORGE BIZOS: H-o-u-g-h.

MR J VAN ZYL: Not that I can remember.

GEORGE BIZOS: And Chris Labuschagne?

MR J VAN ZYL: I do not remember him Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: And do you know whether together with Eric Winter they were transferred to Cradock?

MR J VAN ZYL: Mr Chairman, there was somebody else that was transferred to Cradock, not Hough or Labuschagne.  From the unit.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who was that?

MR J VAN ZYL: I don't know, I can't remember Hough or Labuschagne being in "Koevoet" but that is possible, because they were junior members.
	There was another "Koevoet" member at Cradock called Lourens, George Lourens.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Now out of all the people that there were in Port Elizabeth, why were you chosen to lead this execution of this plan of unconventional killing?

MR J VAN ZYL: I really don't know, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Has it occurred to you that with you from "Koevoet" in Port Elizabeth and Mr Winter from "Koevoet" in Cradock, may have been a way of augmenting the strength of the Security Police here under the soft hearted Mr Snyman?

MR J VAN ZYL: No, I have not thought of that, Mr Chairman.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Mr van Zyl, if anyone of the applicants in this case said to the relatives or the victims that there were at this stage three groups on the lookout to kill Goniwe.  Your group....

MR J VAN ZYL: Which stage is that Mr Bizos?