Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-13

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I don't know.  Everybody knows that it is winter around that time.

MS PRETORIUS: Was it cold that night?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: It was a little cold, but I did not feel it.  I was on duty, I was keeping watch, on the alert.

MS PRETORIUS: There were lots of fires burning in Boipatong that night.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did not go around checking fires at Boipatong.  I would just concentrate on the fire that was lit in my street only.

MS PRETORIUS: No, Mr Baloyi, I think you don't understand.  I'm not trying to catch you out, I'm just asking, I would just like some facts.  Normally in winter time there are lots of fires in Boipatong - don't talk about that night specifically, normally in winter time.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Do you mean inside or out in the streets?

MS PRETORIUS: What I want to get at, there is a lot of smoke in winter over Boipatong, like Vanderbijlpark likewise.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what the witness wants you to do is to clarify the question for him, whether the fires that you're talking about, were they fires in the streets or inside the house.

MS PRETORIUS: I mean generally.  The fires inside and outside cause a lot of smoke in Boipatong on a winter evening.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, that is correct.

MS PRETORIUS: And that affects the sight of people in Boipatong, that you don't see as far and as well as you would on a clear summer night when there is no smoke.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, it does happen from around 7/8, but around 9/10 that smoke will be clear. there will be no smoke.

MS PRETORIUS: Because Mr Buwa testified ...(intervention)

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: He is here, he's listening to you as you speak.  I cannot comment on Mr Buwa's statements, no.

MS PRETORIUS: Okay, I'll retract that question.  What I want to know from you, did all your neighbours know Mtwana Zulu?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: There's not a single person who does not know Mtwana.  He was a good person and he  used to perform with the children.

MS PRETORIUS: Did Mr Buwa know him, do you know?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, he knew him very well, he was our neighbour.

MS PRETORIUS: Your other neighbour by the name of Victor, did he know Mtwana Zulu?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: What I'm saying is, Bafokeng Street, the people of Bafokeng Street, even the people of Boipatong in general know Mtwana.

MS PRETORIUS: So if they had seen him there they would have said so?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I would not know about that, I can only comment on what I saw.

MS PRETORIUS: Did you hear any shots being fired at the Buwa household?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: There was the breaking of windows in Buwa's home.  I was watching, I did not hear any gunshots.  I only heard gunshots at Nxwane's home.

MS PRETORIUS: Can you give a reason if there had been shots at Buwa's house, why you wouldn't hear it?  You were watching his house, what is the reason why you would not hear gunshots if it was shot at his house?

CHAIRPERSON: But his evidence is that he was watching Buwa's house and all there was was just the sound of breaking windows.  He didn't hear any gunshots sounds.

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Chairperson, I would just like then to put the following statement to him.
	Mr Buwa says that he did, there were shots fired at his house, have you any comment on that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is his testimony.  What I'm saying is that I did not hear any gunshots.

MS PRETORIUS: The people that were walking along Bafokeng Street, were they all carrying loot, goods that they had taken from the houses of the people of Boipatong?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: There was a large crowd of people.  I cannot comment whether each and every one of them carried something, but there were many TVs that I saw.  Many of them were carrying items.  I cannot really say if all of them did carry something.

MS PRETORIUS: You also saw them carrying it after they had left Bafokeng Street, going over the veld, were they still carrying these goods?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: They would not have dumped these items in the township, they did carry them towards the veld.

MS PRETORIUS: And you did see that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: If somebody goes past you and you have their back towards you, how would you know what happens?

MS PRETORIUS: After they had left were there any TVs standing in the veld there?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did not go to that veld, I was busy with other issues.  The situation was very bad that day, you would not have been able to just go out.  Even policemen were afraid to walk around.

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Baloyi, the first time you realised that the people in the black clothes walking along the street with the balaclavas, the first time you thought they were white people was when the white man in the Casspir loaded the body into the Casspir, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: Yes, I said so.  That is what I said yesterday.

MS PRETORIUS: So up to that moment you did not think there were white people taking part in the attack?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I did see the people in the Koyoco and I realised that they were white.

MS PRETORIUS: No, I mean the people walking in the street with the black clothes, that you said had balaclavas on.  The people in the Koyoco I'm not talking about, I'm talking about the people on foot.  The first time you thought they might have been white was when the white man wearing the balaclava came to load the body in the Casspir, is that correct?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: That is what I said.  Even yesterday I still said the same thing.

MS PRETORIUS: So the person saying: "maak gou" didn't really make you think that they were white, you thought it may be a black man that was saying this.  Because it's an expression used by English people, Afrikaans people, Zulu-speaking people, isn't that so?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I don't think so.  If an Afrikaner person says: "maak gou", you can understand or you can hear that this is an Afrikaner speaking.

MS PRETORIUS: But you just told us that you made the deduction that there were white people involved in the attack when you saw the policeman wearing the balaclava, after the attack.

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I said when I heard that voice I recognised that it must have been an Afrikaner and when I saw the person later on who was dressed the same way as those people who had been walking alongside the street, it certainly confirmed that indeed those persons who had been walking along the street on the sidelines were white.

MS PRETORIUS: That was not your evidence now, but I'll leave it at that.  Do you speak Afrikaans?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I do not know Afrikaans.  I can understand when you talk but I cannot claim that I know Afrikaans.

MS PRETORIUS: Do you speak English?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I am not English but I can understand.

MS PRETORIUS: Do you have any description of the man that attacked you in your house?  The lights were switched on, you were trying to keep him out of the room, can you give the Committee any description of that man?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I'm not in a position to describe who they were or what they looked like.  They were in their private clothing.

MS PRETORIUS: What kind of clothes did they wear?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: I do not know.

MS PRETORIUS: Do you normally wear glasses?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: No, I do wear glasses sometimes, if maybe I'm reading something, but I don't normally wear them.

MS PRETORIUS: Because it's still strange to me that you cannot - can you tell us what clothing this person who attacked you with the axe had on, is it possible for you to tell us that?

MACHIHLILE WILSON BALOYI: What I'm saying is, if you are involved, if you are being attacked you have no time to check what your attacker is wearing.  During fighting you cannot concentrate on a person's clothing.