Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-23

MR STANDER: Wouldn't it have been strange Sir, because you were out on a mission.  Wouldn't it have been rather strange that if Mamome didn't have his gun with him?

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't this pure argument?

UNKNOWN: And may I place on record, Mr Mamome will not deny that he had his firearm with him Mr Chairman.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: It has never been my work to inspect whether policeman had a gun in his possession, What I know is that a person must have his gun.  Whether he had his gun or not on that day I do not know.

MR STANDER: Mr Lesale has been told that Mr Mamome did have his weapon with him so it's not a problem.  When Sergeant Mamome got out of the car after he got to Oupa Makubalo, did you see if he fired any shots in the direction of Makubalo?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: No, I do not remember.

MR STANDER: Did he not run after him also Sir?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: He was running after him.

MR STANDER: Do I understand you correctly, you stayed in the car?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I was not inside the car, I was standing alongside the car.

MR STANDER: Why did you get out of the car?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I was left behind with the car.

MR STANDER: Did you know where they were running to?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: They ran all over in that street, I do not know where they went to.

MR STANDER: Was only one shot fired or more than one shot?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I do not remember how many times were shot, but the gun was firing.

MR STANDER: Whose weapon it was, can you say, who fired those shots?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: When I was still in the car, when I got out of the car I saw Motsamai shooting at Oupa's direction.

MR STANDER: Tell me, is Oupa Makubalo - was he arrested later on?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Yes somebody came with him.

MR STANDER: When he came back to the vehicle what was his condition?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: He was walking with Mamome but he looked as if he was scared.

MR STANDER: Did it look as if he had been assaulted at all?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: No Sir.

MR STANDER: The people who got hold of him, were they angry with him.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I did not realise whether they were angry or not.  It did not come to my mind to check as to whether they were angry or not.

MR STANDER: Was Motsamai angry.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Motsamai was deeply hurt because it was according to - he explained that Oupa killed his informer.

MR STANDER: Did he not hit him a few times in your presence, I'm talking about Motsamai?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: No Sir, I did not realise that.  They arrived with him  we got into the car, we drive off.

MR STANDER: Where did you take him to?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: We came to Fountains

MR STANDER: Was he assaulted in your presence there?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: No Sir.

MR STANDER: Were you in his presence for the whole time after you came back to Fountain?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: When we arrived I took a car and I drove off because it was already after 4 o'clock.

MR STANDER: So you didn't enter into the building with him?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I went with them into the building, I took my briefcase, went downstairs and I left.

MR STANDER: So what further happened you don't know, do I understand you correctly?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That's correct.

MR STANDER: It is my instructions to state to you Sir that you saw clearly how Oupa Makubalo was assaulted in your presence.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is not so Chairperson.

MR STANDER: Not only by Motsamai but also by Mamome?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: No Sir, that is not so.

MR STANDER: Also by other members present there?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is not so.

MR STANDER: I would like to put to you that it was highly unlikely that somebody who went out to arrest somebody else who had killed one of his informants and that when he got hold of him he did not give him a few smacks.  What do you say to that?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Sir, I told you that Motsamai was hurt.  He might have done that but not in my presence.

MR STANDER: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman it is true it is not mentioned in his affidavit, but you will remember in a previous occasion when he himself came to give evidence he said specifically it was part of his evidence which was presented.  I have in any case no further questions.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Lesale, do you know Warrant Officer Mbanjani?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Yes Sir.

ADV MEMANI: You also know he was stationed at Botshabelo?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Yes Sir.

ADV MEMANI: And so was Sergeant Smit?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I not know Smit.

ADV MEMANI: Do you know Warrant Officer van den Berg?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Yes Sir.

ADV MEMANI: And he was stationed at Botshabelo?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Yes Sir.

ADV MEMANI: And Ngo tells us that you were also stationed at Botshabelo.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I have never worked in Botshabelo my entire life.

ADV MEMANI: Now when you knew Ngo, you say you saw him for two or three months isn't it?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That's correct.

ADV MEMANI: You worked with him in fact.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I was not working with him.

ADV MEMANI: He worked at Fountains isn't it?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: You said at the time he was being recruited.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: He was a student constable at that time when I knew him.

ADV MEMANI: He was being recruited into security branch.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I said new him at the security branch within the security branch.  I do not know where he was going to be recruited because he was already in.

ADV MEMANI: So he was already a student constable attached to this security branch?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct Sir.

ADV MEMANI: And he worked with other members of the security branch?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: Who did he with do you know?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: He was working in Lieutenant Shaw's section I used to see him in the company of Sergeant Mamome and Sergeant Motsamai even though I did not know his duties.

ADV MEMANI: And Ngo has also told us that you were present on an occasion when certain students were arrested at Botshabelo.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is not so, Sir.

ADV MEMANI: Do you recall any occasion when you arrested students at Botshabelo?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I have never worked in Botshabelo, I have never arrested students in Botshabelo, I have never arrested anyone in Botshabelo.

ADV MEMANI: There was no friction between yourself and Ngo?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Up to this day there is no friction, we are still greeting each other.

ADV MEMANI: And in actual fact you do not care whether he gets amnesty or not, All you want to do is clear your name, isn't it?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I do not know why do you include me in the amnesty issues now because I - we are in good terms with Ngo, I still greet him, we talk outside, now how do you include me in this whole thing of amnesty?

ADV MEMANI: What I'm saying to you is you do not wish that he does not get amnesty, all you want to do is to say that you are not involved in the things that he says you are involved in.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: Sir, there has never been a friction between myself and Ngo.  There is nothing that I am fighting him against, now why involve me in the issue of amnesty.  I'm not the person who decides whether one should get amnesty or not.

ADV MEMANI: Do you know Ramosoeu?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I know him Sir.

ADV MEMANI: Do you know Tsomela?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I know Mr Tsomela.

ADV MEMANI: You are stationed at Botshabelo?

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And do you know Constable S. Khatlake.

SELANE SHADRA LESALE: I do not know him Sir.

UNKNOWN: Could that be spelt Mr Chairman, that's a name we don't know.

ADV MEMANI: K-h-a-t-l-a-k-e.  Do you know Sergeant Smit, you said you don't know him, previously.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]