Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-11

MAPULE RAMASHALA: What was the nature of those reports?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Oh it would deal with various issues, but one of the issues which is being investigated here that was covered in that document and that is that there was animosity between people at the areas which were affected, Crossroads, KTC and that.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Sir I am just asking you for your opinion.  You heard Mr du Toit's response about the quality of his reports and Mr Ntsebeza referred to that. When you read the reports did you, in your opinion, think that these reports were complete, incomplete?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I, as I ...(intervention)

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Let me complete.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Oh sorry.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Taking into consideration what was, for example, reported in the media about the attacks?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I read the reports and it reflected that - I must put it this way, if you read the report, the security report, and you would take knowledge of what was said there and read a media report I would read in the press more information than what was in there.

CHAIRPERSON: Meanwhile will you please try not to go out, we are trying to solve our problem.  Please remain seated.  We are proposing that we stop the questioning for five minutes and allow the technical sound people to assist us.  So over to you Sound Department.  Thank you.  There is no Afrikaans interpretation, no Xhosa, in fact even the English we cannot hear it from the earphones.  Thank you.
BREAK WHILE THE SOUND SYSTEM IS ATTENDED TO

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: ......Major Odendal operated from a place at Manenberg where they had their operation centre.  He came in from time to time to the meetings in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me please be quiet.  Could you please be quiet.  Thank you.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: So you didn't interact with him directly?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: No.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Did you get any reports from him?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I got reports back from what had - incidents which had happened via his operation centre.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: What would be, for example, the subject matter of those reports, if you can just give me one or two examples?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Sure.  There would be first of all the planning of what they were going to do, that they basically, the basic broadlines of patrols they were going to send out, how many vehicles they were going to use, etc, etc, etc. If I will elaborate, if you want me to I will, but now that's basically that.
 The other one is that if there had been an incident where they had to act or where there was forms of stone-throwing or tyres that were burning or whatever these would come from him, it would go through to his operation centre which they will then consolidate and then from there on they will send a written report to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntsebeza.

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Chairperson.  Just to round that one up, was your operations room that you attended at the Thomas Boydell building?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: You were in charge of that?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Okay.  Now I believe you have a document which is in Afrikaans a "Kripte berig" of the 25th of March 1986.  Do you have that document?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: 25th of March 1986 Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes 2114300, it's from, it appears to be coming from the Commissioner of Police.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: It was coming from the Commissioner of Police under the signature of Major General Wandrag.

MR NTSEBEZA: Major General Wandrag.  Now who was Major General Wandrag?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Major General Wandrag was in charge of the operational side of the South African Police Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Would he be, for instance, was he the person in charge of the Riot Unit?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: At a national level?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: And would it be so that at the Western Cape the gentleman you mentioned is Brigadier Swart?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: Would be the overall commander of the Riot Unit?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: No Sir.  The Riot Unit in South Africa were under the command, specifically first of all under the command of General Wandrag.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: And they had delegated their powers to the Divisional Commissioners.

MR NTSEBEZA: Who in the Western Cape was Brigadier Swart?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Well at the time yes, if I can remember correctly.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.  There was a Brigadier Strydom who was in the Security Branch was he not?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: I think he was in the Detective Branch.

MR NTSEBEZA: Detective Branch.  And Dolf Odendal was in the Riot Unit in the Western Cape?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: He was an officer in the Riot Unit, yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: He would normally then be under Brigadier Swart?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Well he had a commander and the commander would be under Brigadier Swart.

MR NTSEBEZA: Now let's look at this document.  What was the nature of this document?

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Sir, this document had its origin from the State Security Council.  If we look at the address, to whom it was addressed, it was addressed to the Divisional Commissioners.  In this instance the "Afdeling Kommisaris", that's why there's an "AK" there.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Alright.  Then you have - it was addressed from Pretoria to the Divisional Commissioners, alright, and it was under his signature for information to the Commissioner of the Railway Police, alright, and then the Chief of the Defence Force, Hoof van die Leer, that's what it actually means.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.  And I see in the bottom in handscript there ...(intervention)

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Sorry.

MR NTSEBEZA: And I see at the bottom in handscript there that it seems also to have gone also to the Mini-JMCs.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes, yes Sir.

MR NTSEBEZA: And what was it looking at?  What was it attempting to say?  I see there it says "Situation".

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Alright, first of all it was a secret document, it had come through from the GVS - now that I would like to explain.  It's the Joint Security Staff of the State Security Council, and the Joint Operational Staff.  Now the Security Staff and the Operational Staff is basically the same people but it all depends if they were in executive positions or not.  The decision-makers would be the Joint Security Staff and the guys that would do the work would be the Joint Operational Staff, the 'GOS'.

MR NTSEBEZA: So GOS would be Operations, GBS would be ...(intervention)

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: GBS would be the whole system.

MR NTSEBEZA: The whole system, yes.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Alright.  Now they say the instructions came from the "GVS Riglyne", which is the guidelines, from the Joint Chief of Security Staff.  Now that the most top level that you can get anything from.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: It came from and it appeared to me that General Wandrag was one of the members of the Joint Security Staff at the time.  It is then guidelines which were sent to all the divisions in the way of how to deal with riotous situations.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see.

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: And then he carries on and he gives you a bit of background in the first paragraph 1, 2 and 3 and ...(intervention)

MR NTSEBEZA: In fact particular I am - you remember when I was dealing with the last witness ...(intervention)

TREVOR GRIFFITHS VERMEULEN: Yes Sir.