Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

WOUTER BASSON: (still under oath)

MR VALLY: Mr Chairman, before I continue asking questions of Dr Basson, I want to put some items on record.
 We have contacted a travel agent and we have determined that there is in fact a flight, a Sun Air flight, flight number BV718 leaving at 20H05 tonight and in fact there were still seats available on it.
 Our phone call was made approximately five minutes ago, between five and ten minutes, so at 17H40 there was a later flight with seats on it.
 Secondly we were advised that the Chairperson of the Bar Council in Pretoria was Adv Grobler and we have been trying to get hold of him.  We have successfully got hold of him.  He advised us that since February this year, he is no longer Chairperson of the Bar Council.
 That in fact the Chairperson of the Bar Council is Mr Backlesman.  Mr Backlesman is unfortunately away and in his place is a Mr Johan Louw and whilst we have his cell number, we haven't bothered contacting him because I believe Adv Cilliers is no longer here.
 In the circumstances Mr Chairman, I think that potentially they could have represented Dr Wouter Basson.  I see Mr Van Niekerk is still here, I am not sure if he is representing Dr Wouter Basson of just observing matters but I would like to continue with the questioning of Dr Wouter Basson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Vally.  May I just place on record that I am not - I am a little bit surprised to hear that there is a Sun Air flight at that late hour and that there are seats available. I did speak to Mr Cilliers who advised me ...

MR VALLY: I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman, it is BV798.  I did incorrectly say 718 earlier, but it is BV798.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cilliers did say to me that there were no more flights available.  I suggested that he may well be advised to find out if he cannot travel SAA and then he said no, no, no, he had already tried and there were no flights available.
 That in any event Mr Van Niekerk is going to represent Dr Wouter Basson.  I must say in fairness to him, he did add the rider that he doesn't know what instructions Mr Van Niekerk would be getting from Dr Wouter Basson.  I don't know if I can, Mr Van Niekerk now that you are here, if you could place yourself on record, so that ...

MR VAN NIEKERK: Mr Chairman, I am flattered that you know I can represent Dr Basson.

CHAIRPERSON: No, it is not ...

MR VAN NIEKERK: Having spent the day here today ...

CHAIRPERSON: It is not I, it is your counsel who said you are here and you are going to take over.

MR VAN NIEKERK: I am here on matters procedural Mr Chairman.  Having listened today to the evidence, to the voluminous amount of evidence and the complicated issues that have evolved, I would not accept a brief to look after the interests of Dr Basson on the merits this  evening.
 I am staying here in the capacity as an observer and not as Dr Basson's legal representative on the merits, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: When you said you are here on procedural matters, may I understand in what sense?  Do you have instructions for instance for anything?

MR VAN NIEKERK: No, I have no specific instructions whatsoever Mr Chairman.  There was a stage this afternoon where an urgent application to the High Court was considered, in which case my services would have been called upon, but I am not here on the merits whatsoever.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Basson, do you want to say anything?

MR BASSON: Yes Mr Chairperson, thank you for the opportunity to put my case.  I find myself in the position at the present moment that my competent legal counsellor because of reasons known to him, had to withdraw.  I had nothing to do with that.
 He has his own reasons.  Today I have tried to the best of my ability to cooperate with you and certain stages I exceeded my limits and you reprimanded me.  I have been here since eight o'clock this morning, you also, but I think your adrenaline levels were perhaps a bit lower than mine.
 I have no competent legal representatives at the moment, not because of any of my doings.  This Commission, I understand they had to complete certain requirements.  I have sympathy, I have respect for what the Committee is doing. I will find it very difficult to answer further questions, and I find myself in a position where I was, where I say that it will be difficult for me to answer questions without competent legal representation.
 I undertake, like my legal counsel has said, that I will assist you in providing outstanding answers in writing which I will compile with the assistance of my legal representative.
 At this stage, I am dependant on you for any further decisions and I trust that you will take my position ...

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to say anything in reply, in view of the fact that Dr Basson is saying, "Look, I am here, I have not chased any flights, I'm here, but I'm in the position that I am in through no fault of mine really, I am now without representation, competent representation", and... (intervention).

MR VALLY: Mr Chair, we have approximately six hours left within which we must wrap up our activities which commenced in 1996, in terms of enquiries into human rights violations abuses.   The fact that Dr Basson's legal representatives have stated that there were no flights, when we were able to ascertain that there were flights, is a worrying one, it's a worrying one in the context of what has transpired over these last three days.   With the greatest of respect, and I repeat what I asserted before, I believe we should continue questioning Dr Wouter Basson, I believe that Mr Van Niekerk at very least could possibly represent him.    I am not saying that he is obliged to, the issues are crisp and clear relating to the issue of self-incrimination or the right to remain silent.    It's not necessarily a question of having knowledge of all the documents. However, Dr Wouter Basson can make his election as to who he wants to represent him, but I believe that I should be allowed to continue asking questions, for all the reasons we've been stating for the last three days, and this is further exacerbated because we've consistently pointed out the contradictions in the positions taken by Dr Basson's legal representatives, and I'll repeat those contradictions for your purposes:  we were initially told that they only started... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: No, Mr Vally, I'm sure the panel is well aware of those contradictions and it's a matter of grave concern also to us, but isn't, or let me put it this way, in that particular context, let me ask you a hypothetical question, assuming, I don't know what the position of Dr Wouter Basson is going to be, assuming we are in a position like yesterday's, where Dr Wouter Basson will say, "Look, I hear the question, I would have loved to have replied to it, but I refuse to answer that question because I'm not legally represented"?

MR VALLY: I respectfully submit that Dr Basson is a master of his own fate.   I say this because the application was brought in his name, he's fully aware of what was in the application, because he signed the affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: But aren't the real culprits, to the extent that you can say so about colleagues and professional people, aren't the real culprits today his lawyers, especially in view of what you have disclosed to this tribunal with regards to what you have been told by travel agents when they have told us something else?

MR VALLY: I cannot say that unequivocally until I hear what they have to say about the matter.  We did tell Dr Wouter Basson, as soon as we heard there were flights available and asked him to contact his counsel by cell.   He has not indicated whether he's made any attempts whatsoever.