Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-12

JAKOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Your Honour, I cannot make a statement in this regard, because I am not involved in those investigations.  But my knowledge at that time and in that period of time from 1988, 1989 through to 1992, these acts were generally seen to be committed within this particular milieu, environment where these are politically motivated people.

JUDGE WILSON: This is what you believed?  I therefor believed, is what you say, that everyone of these kinds of criminals were simply members of the ANC/PAC or APLA?

JAKOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: That is in fact the case Your Honour, that is exactly what I believed.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr De Ru, what we are trying to ascertain is whether this conviction of yours, what were your grounds for this believe?  It might indeed be that a common criminal and a common murderer as one finds today and as one had it in the past, would also seek out the simplest target, the easiest place to kill or murder, what made this particular criminal act appear different to you from common criminal acts?

JAKOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I understand your question Your Honour.  I am asking you to understand this in the light of the period where this occurred.  I understand the statement by the Chairman, but the situation in the present time is not the same as during the period 1988 to 1992, there was a heightened campaign against farmers and older people due to politically motivated slogans and convictions.  The impact of the statements of leaders on these people, it might well be that there would have been crimes committed previously that would have been seen differently, but I am asking you to see this in the light of the circumstances of that time, the statements by political leaders, the impact of that on people and that is why I believed that these were politically motivated acts.

ADV DE JAGER: I have problem with this, I can understand that there would have been several such murders or more of these murders, but during that particular period the common criminal did not entirely disappear.  For you to have taken a step as drastic as this, you justify this on the grounds that this was a politically oriented or motivated murder, what I want you to do is to distinguish for us what happened to the common criminal.  There must have been crimes committed at that time that were not politically motivated and you must explain to us why you considered this act to have been politically motivated.  What were your grounds for this conviction?

JAKOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: I believed that the crimes committed and the murders on these, the cruel murders on the farmers and on aged persons, I understood as being committed by politically motivated persons.

ADV DE JAGER: Was there any particular fact about the method that was used in the murder that would have distinguished it from a common criminal act?

JAKOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Yes, the cruelty of the murder.  The shock that it had to generate the chaos that it had to create - so the cruelty of the murder and the impact that that would have had on aged people and on farmers, that is what I believed.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all you wish to ask?
ADV MADASA
just wish to ask a further question.  Mr De Ru, in the murder you have just talked about was there any similarity between that murder and the other murders on the farmers' premises?  Was there any similarity between the case you have just spoken about, the attack on that place where old people were living, was there any similarity between that murder and the murders which took place at the farmers' farms?

JAKOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Your Honour, I can say that in terms of the targets, these were farmers and older people.

ADV MADASA: Just one more, last question.  These people you have talked about who lived in that place, did you have any information of their relationship with the farmer community generally, were they related, were they relatives, were they people coming from Free State or what?

JAKOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Your Honour, many of these were retired workers or farm people who retired and came to live on this place because it was a small community.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the deceased himself, did you know whether he had such connections?  Not the deceased you killed but the victim of the person you killed?

JAKOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Mr Meiring, are you referring to Mr Meiring?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

JAKOBUS JOHANNES DE RU: Your Honour, no, I cannot make comment in this regard.

ADV MADASA: I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: It may well be that after we have heard evidence on the other applications that we wish to ask the applicant further questions about this and one has heard his motives for performing the other acts, what they were based on.  Do you understand now the relevance of hearing all the applications?  Do you not pose to lead any further evidence now you said?

ADV MADASA: No, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I have been informed that the Chairman of the Free State Agricultural Union, Mr Gouws is present in the hearing and I do not know whether he would be prepared to consult with the two persons leading evidence and to give evidence if either of them wish to call him.  Would he be prepared to consult with them, very briefly now?  I offer you the opportunity, both of you, to consult with him as to whether he can give evidence as to the circumstances existing at the time in this regard and we will adjourn shortly to enable you to do so.

MS THABET: Thank you Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS - ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Have you had an opportunity of consulting with the gentleman?

ADV MADASA: Yes, Mr Chairman, we have had an opportunity to consult with Dr Gouws, whom I am calling as a witness for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Gouws, your full names please.

PIETER JAKOBUS GOUWS: (sworn states)

ADV DE JAGER: Doctor, you are welcome to give your testimony in Afrikaans or English, whichever you prefer.  We had thought that you might want to use German, that would be difficult.

ADV MADASA: As the Committee pleases.  Dr Gouws, is it correct that you are the President of the South African Agricultural Union?

PIETER JAKOBUS GOUWS: No, I am President of the Free State Agricultural Union.

ADV MADASA: Where do you live at the moment, where do you live?

PIETER JAKOBUS GOUWS: I am living, actually most of the time in Bothaville as a Member of Parliament, I am also you know a certain period of the year, I am spending down in Cape Town, but I am farming in the Bothaville and Bultfontein areas.

ADV MADASA: Do you know the applicant next to you, Mr De Ru?

PIETER JAKOBUS GOUWS: In person I don't know Mr de Ru, but I have been the Member of Parliament for the Parys constituency since 1989 until the old system was disbanned and we got out new elections and during that period of time, I was approached by his family so I know the history of Mr De Ru's case, but as a person to person, I have met him today for the first time.

ADV MADASA: Mr De Ru has lodged an application before this Committee wherein he is asking for amnesty in relation to certain acts which he committed and presently serving sentence.  He told the Committee that he committed those acts with a political motive and he told the court that the victims, his victims were allegedly APLA members.  Now, I would like you to tell the Committee if you can, as to in accordance with your knowledge what was the relationship between the police, that is security forces and the farmers in the Free State concerning security issues?