Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, in 1976 which was when the Black townships completely exploded, my husband and I took a meat processing machine into one of our Black friends who opened up a butcher shop and we took it there - we gave it to him as gift to start his business, so I wasn't particularly afraid of that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

ADV POTGIETER: Mrs Derby-Lewis, on the 10th of April when you heard the news of Mr Hani's death, how did your husband react to that?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: We heard the news at Mr Venter's place, I don't recall any specific emotion - we were with other people, we had to go, we went shopping but in the afternoon we were - my husband was noticeably upset.

ADV POTGIETER: On the afternoon of the 10th?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: But you wouldn't say that he was shocked when you heard that news whilst you were at the Venters?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, yes, we were shocked in terms of it being a very shocking piece of news in the history of South Africa, of course it would be.  Any important person that is assassinated is a shock whether ...[intervention]

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you.  But specifically your husband - you say you were shocked?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, we were shocked, it was like Mr Kennedy being shot or any political person being shot, it's a shock, yes.

ADV POTGIETER: Has your husband ever at any stage told you that he had ordered Mr Walus to assassinate Mr Hani?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Are you talking about within the last - well, I learnt about it during the trial.

ADV POTGIETER: Was that ...[intervention]

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Not the trial, the amnesty ...[intervention]

ADV POTGIETER: The Amnesty Hearing?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: When your husband testified?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, then I actually heard about the full story of their involvement.

ADV POTGIETER: That was the first time that you ...[intervention]

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, sorry, sorry, it was when they asked me to type their amnesty applications.

ADV POTGIETER: So, it was really in the context of this amnesty application where you heard for the first time that your husband ...[intervention]

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, the full involvement, yes.

ADV POTGIETER: And that your husband had ordered Walus to do the execution?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: And did your husband at any stage tell you that he was acting on behalf of the Conservative Party?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No.

ADV POTGIETER: Never?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No - well, it was in the amnesty application that I typed.

ADV POTGIETER: Yes, so that was the first time that you learnt about that issue as well?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Could I ask something arising from that, was it - in the afternoon after you came back from shopping, that you got a telephone call from somebody who told you that a Pole had been arrested or a Pole had been involved?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Well, yes, yes.

JUDGE WILSON: And did you tell your husband?  I can't remember ...[intervention]

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: I'm not sure if he took the message or I spoke but we discussed the fact that it was somebody Polish.

JUDGE WILSON: And did your husband at that stage mention that it might be Walus?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No, but I started to wonder whether it was perhaps him because he was the only Pole that we knew, he was - well, the only Pole that we knew as a close friend and secondly, that he was involved with us in terms of talking - over the years, of what we were going to do.
	He was not just somebody who was a landscape gardener somewhere, he was very much involved in worrying about what was happening in South Africa.  So it was - there were a few key people that used to come to our house who were what I would call activists and who said that they were going to do something, so there was quite a group of people who - if you had heard that something had happened, you would probably think well, maybe that's him because they were prone to talking about something to stop the take-over.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the adjournment now and resume at 2 o'clock.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Thank you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Are we ready to proceed?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, a copy of the notes of tapes which Mrs Derby-Lewis compiled while she listened to the tapes, was handed to Mr Bizos and I would like to hand up to the members of the Committee also a copy of the same note, it will be referred to as Exhibit A(d)1 Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: A(b)?

MR PRINSLOO: A(d).

GEORGE BIZOS: Is it being handed in as a document which was made by Mrs Derby-Lewis?  We certainly do not admit that the transcript is a - that the document is a correct transcript, it has both what Mrs Derby-Lewis says and comment on it and I don't know the basis on which this document is being handed up Mr Chairman.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, the basis is that Mrs Derby-Lewis made reference to this particular document and the document was then made available to Mr Bizos in order to cross-examine her from that document and the Committee did not have a copy of that document - have the same advantage.

CHAIRPERSON: No, we didn't have a copy of that document Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: But I merely wish to place on record that we do not accept that it is a correct reflection of the tapes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, that will be placed on record.  This document will form part of the exhibits as A(d)1.
	Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman?  Mr Chairman, there's a portion on the tape we intend referring the Committee to but due to the noise in the hall I couldn't hear and  Mr Chairman, I think what I'll do, I'll have the relevant section transcribed for the Committee for that purpose and hand them up to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, also in order to same time, with reference to Exhibit R4, that is the second statement made by the witness to Captain Deetleffs which is in Captain Deetleffs's statement, pages 398 to 402 Mr Chairman, that part will also have to be transcribed and made available to the Committee in order to reconcile the statement with what's on the tape recording.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MR PRINSLOO: And also to save time that way Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: 402?

MR PRINSLOO: It ends at page 402 Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Sorry, page 398 to 402 is not a transcript of anything.

MR PRINSLOO: ...[inaudible]

JUDGE WILSON: It's just notes made by Beetge. So what you want to do is transcribe from the tape to compare with it?

MR PRINSLOO: That's correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Now Mrs Derby-Lewis, during your detention - whilst you were detained by Captain Deetleffs, was there any reference made by him to you as to how he treated other people in custody such as Helena Pastoors?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, he discussed that and it was in the context of her not having her children and he said that he visited on occasion and took his children to see her and it was somewhat disturbing because of the fact that I had said to him just previously: "Will I ever see my family again".

MR PRINSLOO: Was that on the 23rd of April?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And this interrogation, did that take place during the course of the night, after midnight?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, it was very late.

MR PRINSLOO: And how long did the interrogation last, are you able to tell the Committee or not?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes, the interrogation lasted from 10 o'clock in the evening - although I was left most of the day, from 10 o'clock in the evening till 10 o'clock the next evening.

MR PRINSLOO: The next evening?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: In the morning?

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: No.

MR PRINSLOO: Next evening.

MRS DERBY-LEWIS: Next evening.

JUDGE WILSON: 26 hours?