Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-05-19

MR BRINK: Now you told the Committee that your intention was to disarm the police.  And obviously, to disarm the police you would have to use force.

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes.

MR BRINK: I didn't hear you?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Use force.

MR BRINK: Yes. In order to disarm the police, to take their weapons from them, you and your comrades would have to use force to do that, not so?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes, we have got to use.

MR BRINK: Yes, and that, the force which you used, could easily have given rise to the policeman's death.  Do you understand me?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes, I understand you.

MR BRINK: And you agree with me?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes, I agree with you.

MR BRINK: Now as I indicated to the Committee, Mr Xegetwane is here and he has told me that he does not oppose your application for amnesty but he has asked me to ask you a few questions. I want to show you a photograph which Mr Chairman, I have marked Exhibit A. Unfortunately it is only one, it was given to me by the victim concerned.  Just give that to the applicant, please. Just have a look at that photograph, Exhibit A. That photograph depicts, I am told, the remains of Mr Xegetwane's house.  Is that correct?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes.

MR BRINK: I think you must answer a little more loudly, it must be on record. Is that the remains of his house?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: I don't know about this picture, but I see it is a front of the house of Mr Xegetwane.

MR BRINK: Could you please speak up?  Could you please speak up?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: I see that is the front of Mr Xegetwane.  But maybe this happened after this attack.

MR BRINK: Well, did you have anything to do yourself, with the destruction of his house?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Destruction of his house?

MR BRINK: Did you cause that damage?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: This damage? No.

MR BRINK: You didn't.

JUDGE WILSON: Could we have a look at the picture before you continue your cross-examination, so we can understand what sort of damage you are talking about?

MR BRINK: Very well, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Mr Chairman.  Just give the photograph for a moment.  To go back then, Mr Ndlumbini, did you have anything to do with the destruction of Mr Xegetwane's house?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: No, I think what I was involved in, is only that attack. I don't know about this.

MR BRINK: Did you leave the house immediately after you had shot at it?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes, we leave the house immediately.

MR BRINK: Did you have anything to do with the theft of any of his cattle?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: No, no, I mean, I mean, me ...

MR BRINK: You, personally, yes.

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: I mean, our organisation, we don't take other things, I mean, it is undisciplined, you see. That's all I can say.

MR BRINK: Do you know anything about his cattle having been stolen?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: I think I was already in prison that time, I was in prison when it happened. So I don't know.

MR BRINK: But in any event you haven't been charged with theft of cattle.

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: I'm sorry?

MR BRINK: You haven't been charged with the theft of cattle.

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: No, no.

MR BRINK: Stock theft.

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: No.

MR BRINK: I have one other questions I must put to you.  Are you aware that as a result of the noise caused by the shooting that night, Mr Xegetwane's daughter has been rendered death, she can't hear?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Well, I don't know about that, but as I said, first that it was no, it was not our aim to injure anyone in the house. Our aim was just to alarm the person to move out of the township.  Our aim was not to kill anyone, injure anyone.  As the whole organisation stand for that.

MR BRINK: Well, one last question.  You said it was not your aim to injure or kill anyone.

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes.

MR BRINK: But when Judge Wilson questioned you earlier, you agreed that the firearms which had been used, could have had the effect of causing serious damage to the inhabitants of the house.

JUDGE WILSON: I have certain reservations now, having read the statement again.  I mean, what sort of R4 was it, that this man had? I thought you said an R4 rifle?

MR BRINK: The applicant on page 10 ...

JUDGE WILSON: (Indistinct - microphone not switched on).

CHAIRPERSON: He said in his evidence that his companion had a rifle.

JUDGE WILSON: An R4, I thought he said an R4 rifle.

MR BRINK: Yes, that also appears, Mr Chairman, on page 10 of the papers, about halfway down the first paragraph
"Four of us were armed and one person unarmed.  I was armed with an R4 rifle."

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, that is on another (indistinct). What weapons did your comrades have when you attacked Mr Xegetwane's house?  Was it a ,32 revolver?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: An R4 rifle?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: And a shot-gun.

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: No, the hand-gun, not shot-gun.

JUDGE WILSON: So there was no shot-gun?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: No.

JUDGE WILSON: It was an R4 rifle.

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: And a hand-gun.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.  An R4 is, my recollection, is a rifle, that is not a shot-gun, is it?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes, it is a rifle.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

MR BRINK: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR WILLIAMS: If I can just clear one  point.  On the attack of Mr Xegetwane's house, how many people were armed?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: If I still remember, it was the R4 and the other people they were armed, but the only guns we shot ourselves is two guns.

MR WILLIAMS: Ja, and that is?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: ,32 and R4.

MR WILLIAMS: And is it correct that you had the ,32 hand-gun?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes, ,32 hand-gun, yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Someone else had the R4.

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes, somebody else.

MR WILLIAMS: Is it an R4 shot-gun?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes.

MR WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: You have just said it was an R4 rifle. Will  you please be careful about your evidence.  What was it?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes, it is a R4 and a ,32 hand-gun,  yes.

JUDGE WILSON: And what was the R4?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the R4, is it a rifle or is it a shot-gun?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: The R4 is the rifle gun.

MR WILLIAMS: That is all, sir.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLIAMS

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Ndlumbini, having had sight of the photograph that was shown by Mr Robin Brink, to your knowledge, was the house of Mr Xegetwane still standing when you left the scene, after you had attacked it?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Everything was standing, even here, there was a bungalows, I think he also sell the bungalows. But there were the bungalows here and all, everything was all right that time. I am surprised to see this.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much.

JUDGE WILSON: I'm sorry, I want to ask one last question. Do you know that it was the policy of the ANC at this time to try to bring peace to the community by establishing self-defence units with members of the community?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes, as I - I am from Tanzania, so Comrade Hani he arrived there in Tanzania to brief us about this, that they are going to form - the organisation will form the self-defence unit because the people are going inside the country, and then in South Africa, they don't allow us to come with our equipment.  So they are going to form the self-defence units. So I was aware that the ANC is going to form this self-defence units.

JUDGE WILSON: And they were to be in the communities?

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes, they would be in the communities, yes.

SISI KHAMPEPE: It was, Mr Ndlumbini, part of politicising the masses with a view of intensifying the people's war, which the ANC was waging then.

PATRICK NDLUMBINI: Yes, it was.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, thank you very much.  You may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR WILLIAMS: Judge Wilson, the applicant does not intend calling any witnesses on  his behalf.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink, are you proposing to call any witnesses?