Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-06

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot remember, but I remember it being said that the Police were going to be part of the attack on Boipatong, they were going to support us with their casspirs.

MR LOWIES: Who said this?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot remember very well, there were many people there, the induna's.  I was also there, listening as a member of the IFP.  There is nothing much I can say, I am just a follower and if a decision has been taken, I just do as instructed.

MR LOWIES: Now did Peens say that he would supply casspirs, according to you, in other words, Peens say he would, very important?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I cannot recall because we did find casspirs at the veld near Boipatong.

MR LOWIES: Now was there any other meeting held after this, before the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, there was a meeting held on the 14th, three days before the attack.

MR LOWIES: How do you recall this day, the date?  Is there any specific reason why you can remember the date?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, it was on the 14th of June 1992, that is when the meeting was held at the hostel.

MR LOWIES: Who Chaired this meeting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was a meeting called by the induna's.

MR LOWIES: Who Chaired the meeting?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not recall, the siren was sounded and there were many people present at the meeting so I cannot say who Chaired the meeting.

MR LOWIES: Can you recall anybody that spoke on the meeting, held a speech or whatever?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot commit myself to things I do not remember properly.

MR LOWIES: Can you recall what was said at the meeting, specifics?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The issue of the attack on Boipatong was discussed, although I do not remember about other matters.

MR LOWIES: Was there no planning as to how it would proceed, what would be done, who would be assaulted or killed?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I stated before, they said dogs should be killed in Boipatong and I regarded that to mean that the entire township should be attacked.  It was not specified that certain individuals in the township should be attacked.

MR LOWIES: Wasn't it said that women and children should also be attacked?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They were attacked and killed, they said everyone should be attacked, including women, children, the aged.

MR LOWIES: So they didn't just say the dogs should be attacked, they specifically mentioned women, children, the aged?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, you know, we have been through this thing before, he has told us that he understood that to mean everyone in the township must be killed.  That is how he understood it.

MR LOWIES: I will rephrase that.  Was it mentioned when the attack would take place or was it only left until the 17th, at this specific meeting now on the 14th?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, the date was not specified, I myself did not know the date.  We did not know when the attack would be launched.

MR LOWIES: Were you at that stage already told that after the attack, you must bring back the weapons and that they would be hidden again in the ceiling or was that only discussed on the 17th?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: At that time, that had not been discussed, we did not even know the date at that time.  We just heard the siren sounded on the 17th.

MR LOWIES: Was anything said that you would be going to Ulundi afterwards?  I am talking still on the 14th?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember, probably.

MR LOWIES: At this stage, was there any Police Officers?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Sir, I last saw the Police at that meeting that was held two weeks prior to the attack, where the induna's and hostel dwellers were also present.

MR LOWIES: What time of the day did this take place, in the morning or in the afternoon, I am talking about the meeting on the 14th?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was held during the day.

MR LOWIES: In the afternoon or in the morning?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I cannot remember the time, but it was during the day.

MR LOWIES: Did you not finish in the evening?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, it did not end in the evening, but in the afternoon.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, I have to put this to you and that is this meeting that you are talking about, never occurred.  This is something that you have sucked out of your thumb?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There was a meeting held on the 14th.  There was a meeting held on the 14th, I don't know what you mean if you say I am sucking it out of my thumb.  A meeting was held two weeks prior to the attack and another one was held on the 14th of June.

MR LOWIES: You see in the statement to Mr Kjellberg, and that is why I am also asking you this, to Kjellberg you said that it was there and then on the 14th already decided that the attack would be on the 17th, under cross-examination now you denied that such a decision was taken.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: But both can't be true?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: What I am saying is that I don't know about that, on the 14th I did not know what the date of the attack would be, the same applies to the meeting that was held two weeks prior.

MR LOWIES: Because the statement to Mr Kjellberg reads as follows
"... at this meeting it was decided that the attack should take place on the 17th of June 1992 ..."

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know about that.

MR LOWIES: I put it to you the reason for this discrepancy is because the meeting never took place and you are sucking this out of your thumb again.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There was a meeting held on the 14th of June.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry Mr Lowies, are these your instructions that there was no meeting on the 14th?

MR LOWIES: From my clients.  And  according to you in this statement to Mr Kjellberg, you said that
"... we were given instructions to bring back the weapons which we would be supplied with, to the hostel, after the attack.  We were told to hide them in the ceiling at the hostel after the attack ..."
	You deny now that something like that was said.

INTERPRETER: Please repeat the last part of that?

MR LOWIES: Are you denying now, or you have denied now, that this was discussed?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.  At that meeting on the 14th, we were informed that Boipatong should be attacked, but the date was not specified.  I do not know anything about the guns.

MR LOWIES: And there was no discussion ...

ADV SIGODI: Sorry Mr Lowies, I just want to get some clarity, are your instructions that there was no meeting on the 14th specifically, or  there was no meeting which took place just shortly before the Boipatong attack?

MR LOWIES: As far as I understand from my clients, there were no meeting to that effect on the 14th.

ADV SIGODI: On the 14th?

MR LOWIES: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: But they don't deny that there was a meeting shortly before the Boipatong attack?

MR LOWIES: Not on the 14th.  Mr Nosenga, still what I would like to know from you, is the following.  Do you deny now that on the 14th, that there was a discussion that you would be hiding, that you were to hide the weapons in the ceiling and that you would have to bring them back, etc, that was not discussed then?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know anything about that.  I have already stated that Boipatong was discussed and that it should be attacked.  With regards to weapons and that they should be hidden in the ceiling, I do not know anything about that.

MR LOWIES: You see you also state in this paragraph that the meeting was headed by the induna's and took place approximately between half past five and eight o'clock in the evening.  I specifically asked you whether it didn't end at eight o'clock in the evening, and you said no, it did not, it was held in the day?