Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

CHAIRPERSON: And as I say perhaps we will hear later what this is all about, but this document also seems to refer to two offences, there was a murder of three black males, as it's put on this document, and they were murdered at quarter to two in the morning on the 20th of June 1986, and then there's another case, which is an attempted murder.  It seems on the face of it, committed by the same people who murdered the three, the attempted murder in respect of a 14 year old, again referred to as a black male on this document, at about 11 o'clock at night on the 19th of June 1986.  So it looks as if there are two offences here.  There was a group that attempted to kill a 14 year old child on the 19th, here at about 11 o'clock, just before 12 at night, 11 o'clock, and then the next morning at a quarter to two they killed three people, three males.  Does this ring a bell at all, does this look to you as if it relates to the Chesterville matter or not?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not know as to what time it was, but it was dark.  That doesn't ring any bell to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Did that group of askaris try to kill a child ...(intervention)

MR SHEZI: Sorry Mr Chairman, if I could be of assistance here.  The details which are referred to here and of the 14 year child at the time, he is my client sitting next to me, he was in the shack on the day of the incident, the 20th, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So that definitely relates to this incident, the Chesterville?

MR SHEZI: That is so, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, okay.  Yes, there we've got it, Mr Shezi has now explained.  So it looks as if they tried to kill - well we don't have your client's name unfortunately ...(intervention)

MR SHEZI: It's Mr Mbatha, ...(indistinct) Mbatha.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbatha?

MR SHEZI: Ja, they tried, apparently tried to kill Mr Mbatha sitting over there next to Mr Shezi, who seems to have been 14 years old at the time.  Does that ring a bell at all?  Have you heard that they tried to kill a child?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, I do not remember hearing that, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Or that they have killed three so-called black males - no, four actually, the four there.  They give us the ages here, one was 20, one was 21, one was 23 and another one was 23.  Four people got killed also it seems, on that same night.  Does that ring a bell?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I remember that people were killed.  As to the number of people and their ages I do not know anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And according to this document this happened at the same place, same address, it is Road 15, House 780, Chesterville.  So it seems to be in the same house where all of this happened, although the times seem to be different.  One is 11 o'clock at night, the other one is at quarter to two the next morning.  You say you can't - you're not sure about the details?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, I am not sure about those details, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, alright, perhaps we'll get some more clarity on this.  Yes, thank you ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Were you involved in an incident in Swaziland when Mr McFadden was killed?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, I was present, Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: He was a white man?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: ...(no English interpretation)

ADV DE JAGER: He was a white man, McFadden.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I did not see him.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you hear about the killing of Mrs First?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: The wife of Mr Slovo.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you hear of the killing of the Schoons, Marius and Jeanette Schoon and their child?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: They were all whites, and they were killed by the Security Police.

MS PATEL: Sorry, Honourable Chairperson, - sorry, Honourable Mr de Jager, the Schoon incident related to the murder Jeanette and Katryn Schoon only ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, mother and daughter.

MS PATEL: Not Marius Schoon.

ADV DE JAGER: Ja.  Yes, Mr Schoon wasn't killed, his wife and daughter were killed.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I did not dispute that, but in which way does that concern me?

ADV DE JAGER: No, I'm only putting it.  You said in evidence whites were never killed.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I was never instructed to go and kill the whites.  No black person was ever instructed to kill the whites.  It's not that the other whites did not kill the whites.  I personally was never instructed to go and kill the white person.

CHAIRPERSON: And that struck you as odd, as peculiar?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: It is not that I was willing to be instructed to kill a white person, but that is actually raising a question to me and it tells me that whatever the whites have done, whatever that was against the government of the time, they would not - the black people would not be sent out to kill the whites.

MR SIBANYONI: What was your rank when you came to Durban during the Chesterville incident?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I was a Sergeant, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: You told us that you were Mr de Kock's driver, being a Sergeant.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Geoff Bosigo, could he drive?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: This kombi that you used to transport the askaris in, where did it come from?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I was driving the kombi that was used by Mr Radebe at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: You were driving the kombi?  I just misheard you.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, Sir, on our way to Chesterville I was driving the kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that a Vlakplaas vehicle that, or was it a vehicle of the local Security Police or don't you really know?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: The kombi belonged to Vlakplaas, it was the kombi that belonged to the Police Force.

CHAIRPERSON: And Radebe would normally drive that one?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: He is the one who was always using this kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: How did it happen that you were driving the kombi that night?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: As I said I was instructed to transport these people to Chesterville.  That was the transport that was going to be used.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh you were told specifically to use that kombi?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, that was the kombi that was going to be used.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, thank you.  Mr Ramawele?

MR RAMAWELE: Thank you, Mr Chair.
	Mr Nofomela, about the issue relating to the driver ...(intervention)

MR HUGO: Mr Chairman, sorry to interrupt.  Maybe before they start with the re-examination, I had the opportunity of consulting with my client and I should put some other matters to the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, of course.  Mr Ramawele, just hold on a minute, we forget that Mr Hugo had to take instructions.

MR HUGO: I thank you once more for your indulgence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR HUGO: Mr Nofomela, I've had the opportunity now, I've taken further instructions from Mr Radebe.  Now first of all Mr Radebe says that there was one kombi that was driven to Chesterville - and let me put it to you firstly, he says he was the driver, and before I ask you to respond let me just complete that, he says the other passengers in this vehicle were Mr Andries Seleka, Mr Mogage, Mr Chris Magopa, then there was a Mr Monyane I think, maybe the pronunciation is wrong, Mr Dube, Mr Magade - Mugade sorry, and Shosha.  Have you got any recollection as to whether this is the true position?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Chairperson, what I can remember if what I have mentioned, I was a driver.  Radebe was also a there, he could be telling the truth by mentioning the other names that I cannot remember.  But as far as the driver, I was the driver, he is lying, he was not a driver there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo, you haven't mentioned Mr Nofomela yet, are the instructions that Nofomela was not in the vehicle?