Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-14

ABEL OUPA KHOTLE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.  The incident we are now going to deal with is Zastron farm.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: It's in relation to Zastron, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on) confirm with Mr Coetzer if he is involved in here.

MR COETZER: Thank you Mr Chairperson for the opportunity.  We are not involved in the Zastron incident.  May I then request you that we can be excused?  As it pleases you.

CHAIRPERSON: Before I do so, Mr Mbandazayo earlier said he wanted to make statements about the farms.  I wonder if those statements were for the ears of the Myburgs.  Could you just apprise us of the situation?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I was going just to address on the PAC, on the policy regarding the farms, just briefly on that aspect.  That's what I wanted to do, Chairperson, that what
was done by the applicants was indeed in line with the PAC policy and APLA.  That's what I wanted to say.

CHAIRPERSON: But was that going to be for the ears of the Myburgs?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, I wanted them to hear that the applicants indeed, this what they did, was not something personal to them but it was in terms of the whole policy framework of PAC and APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, I want you to do it now because I don't want to detain them  here unnecessarily.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I  - briefly Chairperson, that the terms of the PAC policy and APLA, they were not only to topple the then racist minority regime, but to eventually return the land to majority of the African people.  The regarded the South African Defence Force, the South African Police and reservists, farmers and the white homes as bastions and minions of the regime, so hence they were regarded as targets, especially the farmers.  They regarded them that they belonged to Commando structures, over and above the fact that they occupied the farms which they had to drive them away from, so as to widen their territorial operational base which was aimed at eventually consolidating the liberated and repossessed land.  So it was based on that, their policy, the attack on farms, that they regarded them, you know they belonged to commando structures and also they occupied the vast land which in terms of the PAC policy that their policy was based on the land issue, that the land belongs to the African people, so the farmers were occupying those particular land and the vast majority of the land was in the hands of the farmers, so the policy was to drive away the farmers from those lands, so they have to be attacked and also to cripple the economy, as the country's economy was based on the farmers, so what they did was indeed in line with the PAC policy.  That's what I wanted to say, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo  Mr Coetzer, in all fairness, Mr and Mrs Myburg, are they still in the position they expressed after the other two applicants, or is there something more they want to say?

MR COETZER: Mr Chairperson, I'm just getting instructions from them.  Mr Chairperson, it was placed under my attention that the purpose of my clients being here today was to see if they can get any reparation for what was done to them.  They want to know that because of the suffering, they realise that it was done with a purpose, they would just like to know what is going to happen to them now.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Myburg, this Committee only deals with the aspect of amnesty, but there is another Committee that deals with reparation.  They made certain recommendations to
the Government, but the Government will react on that as soon as a final report has been submitted from the TRC.  The recommendation that has appeared in this document so far is that everybody will receive on the same level, there will not be reparations because for example a person lost an arm and another person is now paraplegic, it will be paid out on the same basis, an amount that the Government will decide on.  It will depend on how many people will apply for reparation and how much money is available.  If amnesty is granted in this case and if we find that it is a political deed, in that case we will then say that you will be classified as victims and then you will also have the right to make  a claim for the same reparation of the other victims in other cases.  That decision of how much or how it will be calculated, will be taken by the Government themselves and not by us.

MR COETZER: Thank you Mr Chairperson and Members of the Committee, there are no further submissions.

CHAIRPERSON: We would once more thank you very much for having attended and made the process of reconciliation a possibility.  We would, at this juncture, recuse you because you have heard too much and you have suffered pain and financial loss and proprietary losses, we say, but we should thank you very much and this I say on behalf of the whole Amnesty Committee, you may go well.  Thank you very much.

MR COETZER: I beg your pardon Mr Chairperson, may I be excused as well?

CHAIRPERSON: I wouldn't detain you as well because I would be unfair to you Mr Coetzer, thank you very much.  I recuse the three then, let me put it that way, you and your two clients.  Thank you.  Mr Mbandazayo ...(indistinct - mike not on) You may proceed Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Khotle, is it correct that you were born in 1971 at Hoopstad in the Free State?

ABEL OUPA KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you grew up in the Wesselsbron where you did your primary education up to standard 6 in 1984?

ABEL OUPA KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that in 1985 your family moved to Botshabelo, near Thaba N'chu where you left school in standard 8 due to financial problems?

ABEL OUPA KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that in 1986 you joined PAC through AZANYU?

ABEL OUPA KHOTLE: Correct Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you left the country through Zimbabwe to Tanzania where you joined APLA and did your military training?

ABEL OUPA KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that after your military training, you came back inside the country and you were stationed at the Head Office under the command of Enox Zulu and Lettie Yanshoba?

ABEL OUPA KHOTLE: Correct Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that in 1991 you were deployed in Free State?

ABEL OUPA KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you were involved in seven operations and you have applied for amnesty for all of them?

ABEL OUPA KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, Mr Khotle, is it correct that some of the operations you were involved in, involves farm attacks?

ABEL OUPA KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that all other incidents in which you were involved in have been heard by the Amnesty Committee except the two Zastron farm attacks, which are the subject of hearing today?

ABEL OUPA KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Khotle, can you tell the Committee about the Zastron farm attacks and tell the Committee who planned the attacks, how many were you in the first attack and the second attack?  Can you start with the first one?