Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1997-03-18

JUDGE WILSON: Wouldn't everyone in the village have been talking about this murder by 300 ANC Youth League people?  Her children would have been talking about it.

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Her children got on the bus with us that day.   Therefore, what I am saying is that they must have heard when the police went to fetch the corpse.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you take the children with you?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Yes Sir we took them with us.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you ever admonished by any member of the ANC in your village?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Yes, when we were in jail, after we had been arrested they came.

HASSAN MALL: Any re-examination?

MR BRINK: Sorry, I have not quite finished.

HASSAN MALL: Well, I am sorry Mr Brink.

MR BRINK: I shall not be long.  I just have one question in the light of that.

HASSAN MALL: Do carry on.

MR BRINK: (cont)
	Were all your co-applicants involved in the killing, that is the actual killing of Mrs Mphambane?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Yes Sir, all of them were involved.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

HASSAN MALL: Any re-examination?

MS COLLETT: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MS COLLETT: Now, when you filled in this amnesty application form, did you know exactly what was required of you when filling it in?
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
MISS COLLETT	157	MR MPHAMBANE

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: It was the seven of us that filled in the
form.

MS COLLETT: Did you know what information exactly was required of you?  What you exactly had to say in that application form or were you uncertain?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: We were not certain, but we had a good idea, because we read it, we filled in what we could.  Some parts were quite difficult, but we endeavoured to fill in the form because we had to give it back immediately, so that it could be posted.

MS COLLETT: Now you referred to lawlessness of the youth.   Sorry before I ask you that, were you offered your forms in Xhosa at all, or were you only given English forms?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: We were only given English forms.

MS COLLETT: Would you have been more comfortable with filling in the form if it were in Xhosa?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Definitely.

MS COLLETT: Now, you have referred to the lawlessness and you have agreed that there was a certain amount of lawlessness on the part of the youth.  Do you stand by that?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Yes.

MS COLLETT: As far as you are concerned, was this consistent with the behaviour of other ANC Youth League members throughout the country at the time?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Yes at the time.  The areas around us were behaving in a like manner.

MS COLLETT: Did you ever hear of the ANC distancing themselves from the actions of the ANC Youth League?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: No, never.

MS COLLETT: Did you believe that your actions were part of a legitimate struggle towards political liberation?
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
 
MISS COLLETT	158	MR MPHAMBANE

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: Certainly.

MS COLLETT: The Executive of the ANC Youth League, did it report to the ANC main structure?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: I am not sure but I think that they must have reported to the ANC regional border committee.

MS COLLETT: Did you as members of ANC Youth League ever receive information or reports from the main ANC structure via your Executive?

SEKUMBUSO VICTOR MPHAMBANE: We did not get a report.

MS COLLETT: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MISS COLLETT

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
MISS COLLETT	159	MR MBHEBE

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman it is my intention to call each of the further five applicants individually, so that they can just tell the Commission what role they actually played on that day in the actual killing.

HASSAN MALL: In the actual killing.

MS COLLETT: In the actual killing.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

MS COLLETT: I will confirm with them that they associate themselves with everything that the other two applicants have already said.

HASSAN MALL: Yes.

MS COLLETT: I call Dumisani Mbhebe.

DOMUSANI MBHEBE: (sworn states)

MS COLLETT: Mr Mbhebe were you a member of the ANC Youth League in 1993.

DOMUSANI MBHEBE: Yes.

MS COLLETT: Now you have heard the evidence or testimony of your two previous co-applicants.  Do you associate yourself with everything that they have said?

DOMUSANI MBHEBE: Yes I do.

MS COLLETT: Do you confirm that it was correct and that it pertains to yourself as well?

DOMUSANI MBHEBE: Yes.

MS COLLETT: I am simply going to ask you now did you associate yourself in the intended killing of the deceased in this matter?

DOMUSANI MBHEBE: Yes.

MS COLLETT: What role did you play?

DOMUSANI MBHEBE: After we got to Mrs Mphambane she had been bleeding.  I picked up a stone, threw it at her, it got her at the back of her head because I was throwing the stone
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/EASTERN CAPE
MISS COLLETT	160	MR MBHEBE
from her back.  After she had fallen I hit her yet again.

MS COLLETT: Now, how do you feel about the fact that in the struggle for your political objectives you killed a person, now?

DOMUSANI MBHEBE: It is painful and I feel remorse because I took part in taking her life.  Now I do realise that we were not supposed to have done that, but because of the spirit of the day I found myself in such a situation.

MS COLLETT: That is the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MISS COLLETT

HASSAN MALL: Mr Brink?
NO EXAMINTION BY MR BRINK

HASSAN MALL: Yes, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/EASTERN CAPE
MISS COLLETT	161	MR GOLA

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman I now ask for Andile Gola to take the stand.

ANDILE GOLA: (sworn states)

MS COLLETT: .

MS COLLETT: Mr Gola you have heard the evidence of your co-applicants?

ANDILE GOLA: Yes.

MS COLLETT: Do you confirm that the evidence that they have given is correct and that you associate yourself with that?

ANDILE GOLA: Yes I am involved.

MS COLLETT: Is it true what they have told the Commission?

ANDILE GOLA: It is the truth.

MS COLLETT: Now I want to refer you to the actual killing of the deceased.  Do you confirm that it was an intentional killing on the part of the youth?

ANDILE GOLA: Yes it was an intention.

MS COLLETT: What role exactly did you play in the death of the deceased?

ANDILE GOLA: I was one of the first ones that arrived.   She just stood as we were running after her.  I stood behind her.  She said that I must forgive her.  She will join the ANC.  I then said she must go and tell the community.  When everybody came she came towards me.  I took out a knife and stabbed her.

MS COLLETT: Why did you stab her despite the fact that she had said that she was asking for forgiveness?

ANDILE GOLA: Because I saw her coming towards me.  I was not sure whether she was being sincere or not.

MS COLLETT: So is it your evidence that you did not
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
 
MISS COLLETT	162	MR GOLA
believe her?

ANDILE GOLA: I did not believe her at all.

MS COLLETT: Now she died as a result of this attack on her by the youth.

ANDILE GOLA: Yes.

MS COLLETT: Looking back retrospectively, how do you feel about the fact that you took a life of a person in your political struggle?

ANDILE GOLA: I feel a lot of remorse.

MS COLLETT: Why is that?

ANDILE GOLA: Because when you sit down and think that somebody's life and the gravity of somebody's life is not a light thing.

MS COLLETT: Are you sorry for what happened on that day?

ANDILE GOLA: Yes I am sorry.

MS COLLETT: That is the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MISS COLLETT

HASSAN MALL: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: I just want to clear up one point.  When you saw the deceased, was the group who was approaching some distance away?

ANDILE GOLA: Yes.

MR BRINK: So you were quite close to her?

ANDILE GOLA: Yes I was very close to her.

MR BRINK: And she said that she sought forgiveness and promised to join the ANC.