Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-20

GEORGE BIZOS: It was Wagener, because yesterday I thought it was ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think he did mention the name Havenga yesterday.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, I heard Wagener, because of his association with many Generals.  Sorry about that.
	Now where is he to be found?  That's Mr Havenga.  Does he practice under his own name or is he a member of a big firm?

EDWARD WEBB: No, I think he has his own firm, he's in Centurion, Pretoria.

GEORGE BIZOS: In Centurion.  Well ...(intervention)

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Mr Chairperson, may I just mention I also practice in Centurion and there was a firm Havenga, but I don't think they exist any longer, they no longer in Centurion in any event.  I stand to be corrected, but I don't think there is such a firm in Centurion anymore.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

CHAIRPERSON: Your mike.

GEORGE BIZOS: Which attorney did these applications?

EDWARD WEBB: This last one?

GEORGE BIZOS: Ja.

EDWARD WEBB: It was Adolf Malan.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now if they were the same, because you said that, he must have had a copy of the '90 application in order to copy them into this form.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  And where is this Mr Malan?

EDWARD WEBB: He's in Pretoria.

GEORGE BIZOS: Practising under his own name?

EDWARD WEBB: As far as I know, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  I see Pretoria counsel nodding his head, so that's very helpful.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Chairperson, if I may help, Mr Adolf Malan is from Adolf Malan and Vermeulen Attorneys, and they're also currently the attorneys of record of Dr Wouter Basson, and he practices in Pretoria.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, your button, Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, thank you for that information.
	You see we would like to see those applications and - well you have no objection to your attorney handing them over?

EDWARD WEBB: Of course not, it should be with the Department of Justice.  It ought to be there, all these applications were sent through, through the correct channels.

GEORGE BIZOS: Very well, I will find them.  Now I want to deal with the first application, that is the one relating to Archbishop Tutu.  I want to start with 1.3.  You say that a study was done on the superstitions - bundle A198, Mr Chairman, a study was done on the superstitions of the population groups in the Republic of South Africa, who did this study?

EDWARD WEBB: I don't specifically who did the study, the information was conveyed to me by the CCB.

GEORGE BIZOS: It's sounds a strange study.  What relevance was there to the superstitions of the black people of South Africa in relation to the Archbishop of Cape Town or the Anglican Church and one of the foremost Christian religious figures in the country, and one might say with due respect, of the world, what did the superstitions have to do with it?  What superstition was referred to you?

EDWARD WEBB: These superstitions did not relate directly to the Archbishop himself, it related to the people, the labourers working for him.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh, who was going to be intimidated, the Archbishop or the workers that were working for him, the gardeners and other people?

EDWARD WEBB: In the first place the purpose was that the gardener or the labourer or whosoever, that he was supposed to see the foetus and then should be led to believe that Bishop Tutu had been placed under some kind of spell or witchcraft and that he would no longer want to work for him and in so doing, to try to reduce his support base.

GEORGE BIZOS: That's a very involved political motivation, let's try and examine it.  Did the CCB, on the authority of the General, devise a plan to get rid of a gardener?

EDWARD WEBB: To get rid of?

GEORGE BIZOS: To get rid of a gardener working for Archbishop Tutu.  Is that what you are telling us?

EDWARD WEBB: In that people ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: No, is that what you said?

UNKNOWN: Chairperson, with all due respect, can Mr Bizos please give the witness an opportunity to answer the question please.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR LAX: Sorry, your mike's off again.

GEORGE BIZOS: Have I summarised it correctly so far, then you can add whatever you want.  Have I summarised the position correctly up to now?

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, was the plan devised to get rid of the gardener in the employ of the Archbishop?

EDWARD WEBB: No, that's not correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: That's not correct.  Well why did you bring the gardener into it?

EDWARD WEBB: It was so that the people who worked for him and who were superstitious themselves, that they be influenced.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who were the people that were working for him that you hoped would stop working for him?

EDWARD WEBB: I don't know, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you know you're a General, here is - you know I think that the Afrikaans word "eienaardig" is a much better word than strange, "'n eienaardige ding" that you must hang up a foetus of a baboon in order to get rid of the Archbishop's staff.  Have I now summarised it correctly?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Not all the staff, just the black staff.

EDWARD WEBB: Correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: How many black staff worked for the Archbishop at the time?

EDWARD WEBB: I can't remember, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ask?  Did you ask?

EDWARD WEBB: Possibly I did yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well "dis moontlik" isn't very helpful.  Can you please tell us whether it was two or three?  I assume there was a gardener or two, there was a cook and there was a cleaner, possibly a driver which may have been white, some of them may have been white, may have been black, but how many people were you going to deprive the Archbishop of their service?  How many people and how difficult did you think it would be for the Archbishop to replace them?

EDWARD WEBB: I don't know, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: But you know you started a serious plan, I mean surely these questions come to mind, to the mind of a General, never mind an ex-Lieutenant from Brixton Murder and Robbery.  Any answer to that question?

EDWARD WEBB: Maybe I asked those questions, I don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm sorry, what was your answer?

CHAIRPERSON: He said "Maybe I asked those questions, I don't know."

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh, but you don't remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just ...

GEORGE BIZOS: No, please do, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You say a study was done of the various black "bevolkingsgroepe", from which particular group did this superstition come from, this one about knocking in nails in the tree and hanging a baboon foetus?

EDWARD WEBB: I don't know, I'm assuming that the people who did the study would have determined where it came from.

CHAIRPERSON: But you don't know which one, whether it's Venda or Xhosa or Zulu or Pedi?

EDWARD WEBB: No, I don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: But now, did you ask whether these people - there was any information about the people who were working there, whether they were superstitious or they were perhaps devout Christians, free of any of the superstitions of what you thought were the superstitions of the black people?

EDWARD WEBB: No, I didn't.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now did you give authority ...(intervention)

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, I did.

GEORGE BIZOS: ... that somebody must go and ask Dr Wouter Basson's - sorry, to ask Wouter Basson to go and get a veterinary surgeon to do an operation on a baboon to get a foetus?  Did you authorise that?

EDWARD WEBB: I didn't know who was involved in procuring the foetus.

GEORGE BIZOS: But did you authorise this act?

EDWARD WEBB: I authorised the act.