Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-14

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Khumalo I put it to you that on my interpretation which I still maintain is the correct interpretation the observation that Mr Stevens therefore made that you reloaded your magazine and fired, continued firing at the crowd was therefore correct. What is your reply thereto?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible that you reloaded?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Or you didn't reload and (...indistinct) about that.

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I didn't because there were two magazines and the other magazine was still full.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Hundred percent.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Khumalo did I understand your evidence correctly now that today you testified that in your sector of fire where you fired at there was a man with a pistol and you fired some at least some shots directly at him?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Repeat yourself please?

MR PRETORIUS: Did I understand your evidence correctly today that in your sector of fire, in the sector of fire where you fired with this AK47 on somewhere in that sector there was a man with a pistol and you directed at least some of your shots towards that man with the pistol?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I didn't carry a pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: No did you aim your gun at a man whom you say you saw carrying a pistol?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I did.

MR PRETORIUS: Just bear with me one moment Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes certainly.

MR PRETORIUS: During your evidence which was given before Judge Nugent you specifically testified that in your sector of fire which you fired at on that day the 28th of March 1994 there was no one with a firearm and in that sector of fire where you fired on they carried only spears and assegais. Do you recall that?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I didn't say that. I think here I didn't say that. It is still here that day.

MR PRETORIUS: Can I read to you Sir page 4053 and I am reading to you from approximately line 25

MR PRETORIUS: " I start there, I cross-examined you there. As it pleases the Court My Lord. Now the group that you shot at did you see any firearms at them or with them?"

MR PRETORIUS: Your reply was:

MR PRETORIUS: "No."

MR PRETORIUS: 		"So you shot them whether they had firearms or not?

WITNESS: Firearms, the things which kills is not only firearms. Why they were carrying dangerous weapons everybody was armed in short."

MR PRETORIUS: Now we are on page 4054. Further on, on page 4054 approximately from line 19: -

MR PRETORIUS: "No but you see what the advocate put to you was this."

MR PRETORIUS: This is the Court now examining you.

MR PRETORIUS: "He said you did not see any firearms amongst them?

WITNESS: Yes."

MR PRETORIUS: And your response was:

MR PRETORIUS: "Yes but they have got spears and assegais and kierries and whatever and that is also dangerous let us accept that yes."

MR PRETORIUS: Did you read that now with me Mr Khumalo?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Yes.

MR PRETORIUS: Can we now accept your evidence that you gave at the Inquest Court that amongst the people where you fired at there was no one that brandished a firearm but that you regarded spears, assegais, etc also as dangerous and therefore you regarded well given the fact that you were given an order you were entitled to shoot. Is that correct?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: That is correct. If you mean that the assegai doesn't kill I am very sorry. It kills. If you mean that a knobkierrie doesn't kill. It kills. (...indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Really it boils down to whether you saw somebody there in that crowd with a firearm?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: As I have noted first that I have seen somebody and that particular person was carrying a firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: That is all. Now it has been shown to you that in your previous evidence you didn't say that.

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I think in my previous evidence I have said that and I have even seen that I have seen a person with an Uzzi, a pistol machine gun. But that particular person have moved out of my sight, out of my sector. That is what I have said.

JUDGE NGCOBO: Mr Khumalo see what Mr Pretorius has just put to you is that in your evidence at the inquest you testified that the group at which you fired there were no firearms. They were carrying assegais and spears. Whereas your evidence today suggests that you shot at a group in which there was a man who had a pistol. Do you understand that?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I understand that but you know there is something which is shocking here. If somebody says to me somebody is having a spear and another one is having a pistol or a machine gun - all those things kills. The fact of the matter they kill.

CHAIRPERSON: No.

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Not only the gun kills.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no that is not the question. We all know that they can kill. For the time being the question relates to a firearm. That is what the question is relating to for the time being. There appears to be a difference which is being pointed out.

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: But My Lord many people have died with the spears not with guns. That is my problem.

CHAIRPERSON: I am going to stop you from talking about spears just now. Confine the question right now to the firearm. We accept your evidence that there were people with spears, assegais and so on but right now the question relates to a firearm. Whether you saw a person with a firearm in that crowd at whom you fired. You see this evidence which is being read to you seems to indicate that you didn't see anybody there with a firearm. I am sure you appreciate the difference.

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I do appreciate it.

CHAIRPERSON: Now question is; is there an explanation for this difference?

MR LAX: You don't understand you are being asked to explain this apparent contradiction at this point in time. Do you understand what we are saying to you?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: Which contradiction?

MR LAX: It is really quite simple. It boils down to this. On the passages Mr Pretorius has read to us it would appear as if at the inquest you said that at the time you fired there was nobody with a firearm in your sector, in your arc of fire to use the correct term. That is what he has read and you have confirmed that is what you said. You with me?

BAFANA EDDIE KHUMALO: I am with you but the person who was carrying a pistol in Jabu's Bakery is still my sector of fire but it depends if I sectorised it the people on this corner were next to us. More next to us. I didn't see them with firearm but that doesn't mean that they didn't carry firearm.

MR LAX: Okay just understand this. The issue is that in your evidence today you have said you saw a man a red T-shirt carrying a pistol and you fired at him. You told us that. Now that appears not to be the same as what you said at the inquest in terms of the passages Mr Pretorius read out. Now that is what we are asking you to try and explain to us.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think the problem that we are getting the witness confused when we refer to a T-shirt. I think my colleague is really getting the witness confused. The T-shirt person that I think Mr Khumalo saw refers to a person who he shot at and ran back to Shell House and at that stage he was not yet in possession of an AK47.