Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-19

MR LAX: And you saw this person inside or outside the shack?

FLORENCE MOLETE: He was passing as they were running out of the shack.

CHAIRPERSON: Well was he running from inside the shack, out of the shack?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Yes, they were running from the bedroom, running outside.

MR STRYDOM: This man running out, did he wear camouflage clothing?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: So you did not see this person entering the shack, is that right?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Mr Strydom, how could I see these people, how could I see him because we were fighting?

CHAIRPERSON: So is the answer that you didn't see him entering the shack?

FLORENCE MOLETE: I did not see him when he entered the shack.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you did see was a group of people who entered the shack?

FLORENCE MOLETE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and you can't tell us whether he was in that group?

FLORENCE MOLETE: I cannot say he was in that group because I only saw him when he was going out.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I know you didn't say that, but all I want to find out is, you cannot say whether or not he was in that group that entered.

FLORENCE MOLETE: Mr Ngcobo, this person was running out of the house and that shows that he was also in the house, because when they passed I was at the door.

CHAIRPERSON: The group of people that you saw entering the shack, in that group did you see anyone wearing a camouflage?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Are you referring to the people who entered in the kitchen?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

FLORENCE MOLETE: Those who entered from the kitchen door, when they entered they were already fighting.

MR STRYDOM: What I want to put to you, you testified, and I've got a note here that you only saw black people entering the kitchen, is that correct?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Yes, you are right.

MR STRYDOM: So what you're saying now, apart from the man who stood outside who you said was a white, you also saw a white leaving the shack.  So did you see two whites in total?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Yes, Sir, others were in the bedroom with Miriam and others were in the kitchen with me.

MR STRYDOM: No, no, I'm just talking about white people, you're talking about others now, but just tell me if I'm correct if I state that you in total saw two white people on that night of the attack.  We know about the one standing outside, we know now about one running out, only those two?

FLORENCE MOLETE: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM: The one you saw outside, could it be the same person who later on came out of the shack?

FLORENCE MOLETE: That one was standing, looking inside the shack.

MR STRYDOM: So according to you it could not have been the same person, is that what you're saying?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Mr Strydom, when I was on the ground pretending to be dead, these people passed me when they were running and that person who was standing outside left with them as they went out.

CHAIRPERSON: You see Ms Molete, what counsel wants to establish is the number of white people that you saw, do you understand that?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You've told us that one such person was the one who was outside of shack already, who was merely standing looking into the shack and this is the person that you saw as you crawled out of the shack on the stoep, is that right?

FLORENCE MOLETE: May you please repeat again.  With respect, Sir, I don't understand you.

MR SIBANYONI: Ms Molete, I notice that sometimes you answer before the interpreter finishes to speak, so what I want to know from you, are you listening directly to the Chairperson, or are you listening to the earphones or both?

FLORENCE MOLETE: I am listening to Sesotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, let me start all over again.  When you respond to what I'm saying, please do not just nod your head because it doesn't come through, do you understand that?  Just answer by saying yes or no.

FLORENCE MOLETE: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: I've been explaining to you that what counsel is trying to establish is how many white men, or should I say white persons you saw that evening.

FLORENCE MOLETE: I saw two.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  The first one that you saw was the man who was outside of the shack, whom you saw as you crawled out of the shack on the stoep.

FLORENCE MOLETE: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And the second person that you saw is when you were lying down pretending to be dead, and he was amongst a group of people who ran out of the shack.

FLORENCE MOLETE: Yes, that's correct.

MR STRYDOM: What I want to know, you say that you tried to pretend that you're dead and you were in the kitchen now ...(intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Sorry.  And now the question was, is it possible that the person you saw could be the same person who was standing outside? - you saw running out of the house, could he be the same person that you saw standing outside?

FLORENCE MOLETE: I saw two, the one who was standing outside and this one who passed me running to the outside.

ADV SIGODI: Do you remember what the person who was standing outside was wearing?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Yes, I remember.

ADV SIGODI: What was he wearing?

FLORENCE MOLETE: He wore camouflage and he had a balaclava on.

ADV SIGODI: And the white person who was running outside whilst you were pretending to be dead, what was he wearing?  The one who ran out of the house whilst you were pretending to be dead, can you still remember what he was wearing?

FLORENCE MOLETE: He wore a coat and this camouflage overall with a coat on top.

ADV SIGODI: Did he have a balaclava on his face or just ...?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Yes, he had a balaclava.

CHAIRPERSON: How were you - as I understand you were lying down pretending to be dead, now how were you lying?  Were you lying down with your face down or with your face upwards, or were you lying on your side?

FLORENCE MOLETE: I was lying with(sic) my stomach, but my head was facing the door, I could see outside. When they were running out I was looking at them.

MR STRYDOM: So all that you would have been able to see of this person running out, is you would see him from behind?

FLORENCE MOLETE: The shack was down, as they were running out they passed me when I was on the ground.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but the point is, they're running out of the shack so they're running away from you, so you would have seen him from behind.

FLORENCE MOLETE: Sir, these people were passing me as I was lying on the ground.  I did not see him only from behind, I also saw him from the front.

CHAIRPERSON: When you saw his front, was he already outside the shack or was he still inside the shack?

FLORENCE MOLETE: They were running to the outside.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you still recall where exactly in the shack he was, was he still inside the shack or was he already outside the shack?

FLORENCE MOLETE: They were running out.

CHAIRPERSON: When you first saw this white man, where was he, was he still inside the shack, was he outside the shack? - if you can remember.  If you don't remember, say so.

FLORENCE MOLETE: The first one that I saw is the one who was outside looking inside and then the second one is the one that I saw when they were running out.  That is when they were leaving.

CHAIRPERSON: I've heard you describe how you saw the first one and I think that was when you were outside, what I want to find out is, the second person, when you first saw him, this second white man, was he still inside of the shack or was he already outside the shack?

FLORENCE MOLETE: He was outside the shack and they were running away.

MR STRYDOM: When you were asked yesterday by Mr Berger, if you've seen any white people during the attack, why did you not mention this second white person?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Mr Berger asked me about one person, one white person.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Berger asked you if you saw any white people, why didn't you mention the other person?

FLORENCE MOLETE: Mr Strydom, Mr Berger asked me whether I saw a white person, he didn't say white persons.