Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-19

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, I went over to the truck and passenger section, that's where I worked myself up in the 14 1/2 years that I was there and I became a higher ranking official.

MS VAN DER WALT: You said that you attended certain courses and you also gave training and that you saw it in a very serious light.  What type of courses did you undergo and what training did you give?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Firstly it was about the training of people and the security of the leader, the protection of the Generals in staff.

MS VAN DER WALT: Are you now talking about the leader, is that Eugene Terreblanche?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is.

MS VAN DER WALT: And any other training that you provided?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Through that we also trained the people in the handling of weapons, self protection in case they would be attacked in their homes.

MS VAN DER WALT: The training that you received or the courses that you attended, did this entail any military training?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes it was extended, the further you qualify as a Commandant in the Ystergarde for example.

MS VAN DER WALT: This Ystergarde what exactly is this?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: We were told that we must do all the security aspects.  At the end of the day we have to assist if there is any protection necessary, or how can I put it, we have to act or defend if when there is danger.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was this the elite section of the AWB?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is exactly why I joined them because I believed that it was the elite section and that they were highly disciplined.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie, I read in your application that you acted as body guard for Mr Terreblanche at various meetings throughout the country?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, when I was asked I did it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you work at that stage?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes I did work, I did this in my off times.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do at that stage?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: At that stage I worked at Barlows, the Barlows Group, I was a mechanic.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.  If you worked during the day you wouldn't have gone with them?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No I would not, but there were times where the work was such that I could ask permission to go.

CHAIRPERSON: From Barlows?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, then I would obtain leave and I would go, for example if I was in Johannesburg and he had to fly somewhere I would accompany him to the airport.  They did not what it was about, I just asked for leave and would then go with them.

MS VAN DER WALT: The Ystergarde they also had a different uniform to the rest of the AWB members?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: They wore black clothes?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Just to come back to the point regarding the meetings that you attended.  What was said at these meetings where you accompanied Terreblanche, what was the message that was conveyed?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: To make this very short Mr Chairperson, if the previous government would capitulate and hand over power to the ANC we would not stand for it and that the words that Mr Eugene Terreblanche used is that we will only negotiate with the ANC across the barrel of a gun and that we will not give this country and that there will be a war.

CHAIRPERSON: This country that you are referring to, is this the whole of South Africa?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That is how I understood it at that stage, yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the message that there would only be negotiations across the barrel of a gun, how did you understand that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That nobody would take our country, this is our country that it was bought with the blood of our ancestors and that we will not give it away.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you see it as war?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes I did.

MS VAN DER WALT: Before the election there were various Western Transvaal towns who had right-wing Town Councils and negotiated with the AWB.  Is that correct?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes, that is how I understood it and they handed over the freedom to the AWB and other right-wing parties like the CP.

MS VAN DER WALT: What promises were made regarding work situations in the future Boere Afrikaner Volkstaat?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: As time went by, Brigadier Leon Van der Merwe's words to me were that the Ystergarde would be provided with work, we will do the security aspects for the Mayor of the town and it was told to me that I would work in Klerksdorp as Head of Security and when I asked about my people who would like to do security work as well they said to me that twenty of my people would also be ensured of work.

MS VAN DER WALT: At that stage where did you live and under which command of the AWB did you live?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I am from Johannesburg where I lived on a small holding.  I was the Commander of the Vaal Triangle in Johannesburg Offices.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was your rank?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: The rank that I had at that stage was Commandant.

MS VAN DER WALT: During February 1994 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying Commandant?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Yes that's true.

ADV GCABASHE: You say you were from Johannesburg, you lived on a smallholding.  Where was this?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: At De Deur.

ADV GCABASHE: De Deur?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: It's near Meyerton.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes and which period was this?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: 1993 to 1994.

ADV GCABASHE: Did you know Johannesburg fairly well?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No not so well because I came from Natal.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: How long did you stay in Johannesburg?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I worked for Barlows for 14 years, but I was not a person who travelled around a lot, I was at home most of the time.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were in Johannesburg for 14 years?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: That's correct yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you know the centre of town well?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: Are you talking about the inner city, no Chairperson I didn't move around a lot in the city centre.

CHAIRPERSON: But during the 14 years didn't you drive around a lot in the city to get to know it?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: During February 1994 there was a gathering at Ventersdorp and it was members of the AWB who gathered together there.  At firs there was a chief meeting which was addressed by certain speakers.  Were you present?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I was part of the protection at Trim Park.

MS VAN DER WALT: And do you know who addressed the meeting?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: As I moved around Mr Eugene Terreblanche spoke, Mr Manie Maritz he spoke there during the time I was there.  Someone else spoke of Dr Hendrik Verwoerd.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was that the Secretary, Mr Olivier?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I presume so yes and General Dirk Ackerman also addressed the meeting, General Etsabeth.  There were others as well but I didn't hear much of what they said.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Fourie the Dr Verwoerd you are referring to, surely he's not the one who was killed in Parliament?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: I beg your pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: The Dr Verwoerd you are talking about, who was that?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: No it wasn't Dr Verwoerd himself, I was thinking of Dr Verwoerd, I think it's his son Hendrik Verwoerd.

MS VAN DER WALT: You also made mention of Etsabeth and you said that he also addressed the meeting, what rank did he have?

ABRAHAM CHRISTOFFEL FOURIE: He was a General Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what did you understand of the speech he held there?