Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-06-30

MR MBANDAZAYO: The next applicant Chairperson,is Thomas Ngobeni.

THOMAS NGOBENI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Ngobeni,the affidavit which is in front of you, is also before the Honourable Committee,members of the Committee, do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourselfand you abide by its contents?

THOMAS NGOBENI: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, that is the evidencefor the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: The affidavit, Mr Van Rensberg,you have a copy and Ms Mtanga, that will be received as Exhibit C.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van Rensberg?

MR VAN RENSBERG: Thankyou Mr Chairperson.  Mr Ngobeni, can you just tell us for which offences youare making application for amnesty?

THOMAS NGOBENI: Yes, I can tell you.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Please proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: If you can just tell what offencesyou are applying for amnesty, that is the question.

THOMAS NGOBENI: It is murder, illegal possessionof firearm and ammunition and attempted robbery.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Can you tell us what evidencewas led in the criminal trial, that led to your conviction of attempted robbery?

THOMAS NGOBENI: Can you repeat your question.

MR VAN RENSBERG: The question is can you justbriefly tell this Commission what evidence were led, was led, during the criminaltrial that led to your conviction on the count of attempted robbery?

THOMAS NGOBENI: What I can remember on attemptedrobbery, we never gave any evidence because our aim was not to rob.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Yes, I am asking what evidencewas led from the State's side?

THOMAS NGOBENI: They only told us that we arecharged with attempted robbery, but I never heard Mr Swanepoel talking aboutattempted robbery.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that you should justbe a bit more specific Mr Van Rensberg, because I am sure that we can all acceptthat at the trial, there was evidence of entering the farm premises withoutpermission, being armed, shooting, entering into the house, all of which couldconstitute a basis for attempted robbery.  Was there any evidence led at thetrial of any of you unsuccessfully actually trying to take any specific itemfrom the premises?

THOMAS NGOBENI: There was no one that attemptedto take anything from the house, because even on our plan, it was not thereto rob.  I am sure there was no one who was intending to take anything or torob anything from the house.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  At the trial, at the time of the trial, did you use as a defence, the fact thatyou were members of APLA and that you actually attacked the farm for politicalmotives?

THOMAS NGOBENI: Yes, that is correct.

MR VAN RENSBERG: But I gather from your previousstatement that you actually did not give evidence yourself, is that not correct?

THOMAS NGOBENI: I don't understand which statementyou are talking about.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Okay, let's be more direct. Did you give evidence on your own behalf and in your own defence, at the timeof the criminal trial?

THOMAS NGOBENI: I don't understand whether youare talking about evidence in court given by myself?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that is what MrVan Rensberg is asking, did you during your trial in court, give evidence yourself?

THOMAS NGOBENI: Yes, I gave evidence, but theevidence I gave after I was arrested, some of those were coerced to make suchevidence.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I interpose Mr Van Rensberg,maybe just to assist with regard to this.  Did you give evidence in mitigationof your sentence, to the effect that the offence for which you had been convictedwere politically motivated, is that the kind of evidence that you are referringto when you say you gave evidence of a political nature in your defence?

THOMAS NGOBENI: Yes, after sentence, I gave evidencein mitigation of sentence.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes.

THOMAS NGOBENI: And I gave it wilfully.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Apart from giving evidencein mitigation, did you actually also give evidence in defence of yourself ornot, only in mitigation?

THOMAS NGOBENI: I also gave some evidence beforewe were convicted, even before we went to, but the evidence that I gave is notthe same evidence that I gave in mitigation of sentence, so to say.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Yes, and the difference wasthat when you gave evidence in your own defence, you did not mention that youwere a member of APLA and that you attacked the farm for political reasons,is that not so?

THOMAS NGOBENI: It is not correct, I explainedthat I was a member of APLA.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Let's not get confused, didyou explain to the Court the first time when you gave evidence on your own behalf,before you were found guilty, did you give evidence then that you were a memberof APLA?

THOMAS NGOBENI: I don't know if - I forgottenbecause it is a long time ago, but I remember telling the Court, but I am notsure whether I didn't say, but I think I told the Court that I was a memberof APLA.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Yes, I put it to you andthat is also the evidence of the first applicant, the real situation is thatyou never during your defence of the case, informed the Court that you actuallyattacked the farm for political motives and you only mentioned that in mitigation. Do you agree with that?

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Van Rensberg, do you personallyhave instructions in relation to this point, if you put it to him, will yourclient also say something to that effect?

MR VAN RENSBERG: Perhaps I can just take specificinstructions on that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, before putting it tohim, yes.  You know if you are not going to substantiate it ...

MR VAN RENSBERG: Yes, I just want to confirmthat.  Chairperson, I have in fact confirmed my instructions and I can put itto this witness specifically that the victim will come and testify to confirmmy previous allegation.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You may proceed to do so.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Thank you, just to clearup any confusion, I want to put it to you that Mr Swanepoel will come and testifythat he was present during the hearing of your case and that neither yourselfor any of the other applicants in today's hearing, made any mention during thedefence stage of your criminal hearing, made mention of the fact that you attackeda farm for political motives.  What do you say to that?

THOMAS NGOBENI: As I have already indicated, Ican't remember very well, because it is a long time ago.   Initially we nevertold the Police that we were members of APLA, at the end, in mitigation of sentence,there is a section where we told the Court that our actions were politicallymotivated, that is where we told the Court that we were members of APLA.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Yes, the question then thatremains to be answered is why didn't you if you now are frank and open and putall your cards on the table to spell out exactly what your political motiveswere at the time, why didn't you explain that in the court of law as well?

THOMAS NGOBENI: It was very difficult that time,because of our experience how the political people were handled by the governmentof the National Party, so it was very much difficult for us if they could haveknown that we were members of APLA, they were going to treat us very badly,just like other people who were killed by the Security Police, more especiallyin prison.

MR VAN RENSBERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson,I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBERG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Mtanga, do youhave any questions?

MS MTANGA: No questions Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Judge Khampepe, do you have anyquestions?

SISI KHAMPEPE: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman, any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: I don't have any questions, thankyou Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngobeni, that concludesyour testimony, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?