Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-10

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, this is a similar application by Mr Wasserman.  Unfortunately you would have to refer to two bundles in order to find the complete part of his application, relevant to the present application.
	That is the Zandile bundle 1 at page 112 to, well it runs on to page 125.  Thank you Mr Chairman, I appreciate that.  No, it is further than that,  it starts at page 112 Mr Chairman and it runs on.
	The second - oh, I am sorry, 135, I heard 125, sorry Mr Chairman my Attorney says 125, I misheard.  I heard 135.  Mr Chairman, the other bundle is the Bhila bundle, at page 28.  Sorry page 44, it is the typed page 28.  It has been a long day Mr Chairman, page 44 and following.  The witness is ready to take the oath Mr Chairman

CHAIRPERSON: In English or Afrikaans?

MR VISSER: English.

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Are you ready Mr Wasserman?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR VISSER: Mr Wasserman, you are applying for amnesty for the abduction, detention and the elimination of Mr Bhila and for all acts, omissions or offences associated with that incident, is that correct?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You request the Amnesty Committee to also incorporate into your evidence also, the written submissions by the Foundation for Equality before the Law, the submission by Gen Johan van der Merwe to the TRC and the written statements by the Generals to which Mr Rosslee has already referred the Committee to, is that correct?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: It is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: The same applies to some of the evidence, to the evidence which Mr Vlok and Mr Van der Merwe, Gen Van der Merwe presented to the Amnesty Committee in the COSATU House and Khotso House and Cry Freedom incidents, is that correct?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Would you please Mr Wasserman, inform the, or fill in the Committee about your personal particulars?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I was born in Northern Rhodesia, later Zambia in October 1955.  At the age of 12, I moved to the then Southern Rhodesia, which is now Zimbabwe.

MR VISSER: To Bulawayo, not so?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: To Bulawayo in Southern Rhodesia, which is now Zimbabwe.  I completed my schooling there in 1974.  We were all politically conservative and supporters of the Rhodesian Front, the Ian Smith political party.
	I grew up in a conservative environment.

MR VISSER: Your political background, you stated in the Zandile bundle at page 113, very briefly.  Would you care to elaborate to the Committee on your ranks?  Perhaps first of all I must ask you this, is it correct that you joined the BSA, the British South African Police, in Zimbabwe?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And you went through the ranks there until you reached the rank of Warrant Officer if I remember correctly?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: The equivalent thereof.

MR VISSER: And thereafter you came to South Africa?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Correct.

MR VISSER: When was that?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: In March 1981.

MR VISSER: March 1981.  And did you then join the South African Police?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: With what rank?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Detective Sergeant.

MR VISSER: And you are still today employed, I am sorry, are you still today employed in the service of the South African Police Service?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No Mr Chairman, I left officially on the 31st of May of 1998.

MR VISSER: 1998, this year?  With what rank?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Detective Warrant Officer, Inspector.

MR VISSER: Inspector, Detective Warrant Officer, all right.  What were your experiences after leaving school against this police background and starting with the time that you served in the SAP for those six years before you came to South Africa?
	Can you just sketch to the Committee the background to give them an understanding of what you were exposed to?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I did basic training in the then Salisbury Police Depot.  I started off Uniform Branch enquiries, based in the districts.
	After a period of two years, I applied to the Criminal Investigation Department of the SAP.  Shortly after that, there was a massive increase in war effort from the then ZANA and ZIPPER Forces of the Patriotic Front.
	From then I was pretty well relieved of routine police duties, and went into counter-insurgency pretty well full time.

MR VISSER: Full time in counter-insurgency operations?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: In counter-insurgency operations, that is right.

MR VISSER: All right, yes, continue.

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: I attained the rank of Detective Section Officer, which is the equivalent of the Warrant Officer rank.

MR VISSER: And during that period of police service in Rhodesia, what type of experiences did you have in a period where you suggested that you, or that you stated that you dealt with counter-insurgency operations?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I was involved in many armed contacts.   I hit a good couple of landmines myself and my Unit, ran sources and agents within those two liberation movements that I mentioned, ZIPPER and ZANA.

MR VISSER: Did these experiences make any impression on your own mind?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Yes, it made an impression Mr Chairman, obviously there was a lot of fighting, a lot of blood, a lot of killing, and one hardened somewhat.

MR VISSER: Yes.  On the 6th of March 1981, you emigrated to South Africa, and you joined the South African Police with the rank of Sergeant, you have already told us?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: In 1982, in February, were you then transferred to the Security Branch in Durban until your retirement on the 31st of May 1998?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: At which state you were declared medically unfit, due to post traumatic stress syndrome, is that correct?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman, yes.

MR VISSER: Are you, yourself, receiving treatment for your condition?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: No.

MR VISSER: During your service in Durban, you served under Colonel, the late Colonel Andy Taylor as I understand it, for most of the time?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct.

MR VISSER: What Section was he the Head of?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: He was Head of the Terrorist Section.

MR VISSER: And how many divisions were there in that Terrorist Section?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: It was basically divided into two Sections.

MR VISSER: Two Sections?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: At a later stage, yes.

MR VISSER: Which were they?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Terrorist Investigation and MK Terrorist Intelligence.

MR VISSER: Intelligence?  So you had an Investigation side and an Intelligence side?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Correct.

MR VISSER: Is it my understanding that Colonel Taylor, Major Taylor at the time, was the Head of both of those legs of the Terrorist Section?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Who was the Head of the Investigation leg?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: It was also Colonel Taylor.

MR VISSER: Also Colonel Taylor?  Who was the Head of the other leg, the Intelligence leg?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Colonel Botha.

MR VISSER: Colonel Botha, who will also give evidence in the present proceedings?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Who was your Divisional Commander of the Security Branch during 1987?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: 1987?

MR VISSER: Yes.

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: Colonel Steyn.

MR VISSER: Yes, that would be one of the applicants, I am sorry, I think it is J.S. Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: J.A.

MR VISSER: J.A.  J.A. Steyn.  You sketched briefly through your Attorney the time when you filed your application for amnesty, your political background.  Just before I come to that, perhaps we should go on with this, in your application form, that would be the Zandile bundle, at page 121 to page 124, is that correct?

LAWRIE WASSERMAN: That is correct.