Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It was one of the back rooms.  One of the back rooms.

MR SEMENYA: One of the back rooms?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, back, back rooms.  Right at the back.  There is the house and then there are back rooms.

MR SEMENYA: Is the back rooms separate in terms of structure from the main house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is a totally separate structure.

MR SEMENYA: And there is reference to a place called Lusaka.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, it was where the boys stayed at the back of Zinzi's room.  They built a shack there.

MR SEMENYA: Did you use to go into this shack, Lusaka?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, not at all, it was just a boys' room.

MR SEMENYA: Would the boys come and stay and live in the main house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, not at all.  They stayed completely away from the main house, at the back.

MR SEMENYA: Now, let us talk about the house in Diepkloof.  Where would the boys stay?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: There are also back rooms there, and they stayed in those back rooms.

MR SEMENYA: How big are the walls around the property?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: The whole property, it is hardly fenced actually.  The property, there is just a wall that divides me from the two neighbours on the side.  The front hasn't got a wall.

MR SEMENYA: We understand that is where the Thabiso, Pelo and the Mono's were, is that right?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: And we are told that they were held at that house against their will.  How difficult even at the level of conjecture, would it have been for anyone of them to escape?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: As I have stated, there is no wall in front.  There are the two walls that divide the house from the neighbours.
 And access is very easy to the house.

MR SEMENYA: How high are the walls?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: About this height.

MR SEMENYA: Is there a gate?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, in front there is a small gate where we entered.

MR SEMENYA: Is it locked?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, in fact it is broken and is has been broken ever since.

MR SEMENYA: And speaking about the house, there is a sliding door at the back next to the jacuzzi?  Was that sliding door in a working condition?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, it still isn't in a working condition even now.

MR SEMENYA: Was it in a working condition when you first went to that house?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: No, it was not.

MR SEMENYA: Tholi Dlamini, did you know him?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I knew Tholi.

MR SEMENYA: Do you know the circumstances that led to his death?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: We heard that he had been killed by Sizwe.

MR SEMENYA: Was it on your instructions?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: How could that have been the case?  What would have led to that?  It wasn't on my instructions.

MR SEMENYA: There are a number of allegations which have been made and counter-allegations.  Let us just attempt to deal with a few of those.
 When do you for the first time meet Senior Superintendent Moodley?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: In this forum.  I met him for the first time here.

MR SEMENYA: We have heard that he would have been coming to your house frequently.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is one of those ludicrous fabrications.

MR SEMENYA: Did you influence the police investigations at all?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Which police investigations?

MR SEMENYA: That Moodley, Hesslinga and Dempsey would have been involved with?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: But I met the man here for the first time, how could I have any remote influence on him.

MR SEMENYA: Had you met Senior Superintendent Dempsey?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, I had.

MR SEMENYA: What were the circumstances?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He was the Investigating Officer in my trial, the kidnapping matter in relation to Stompie.

MR SEMENYA: Did he confront you with the information that he had that you would have been associated with any of those criminal conducts?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I heard for the first time here.

MR SEMENYA: Would he have had an opportunity to take a statement from you if he had elected to?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Dempsey had no problem whatsoever in locating me, whether I was out of town, he knew, he had resources to communicate with me.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, I would stop here for the witness to take questions.  The tenor of most of the allegations have been precisely that, just allegations for now.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Semenya, you are quite certain you do want to, as it were, rest your case?

MR SEMENYA: Yes, I am certain.  We would nevertheless re-examine should certain areas arise which give more concern than what I thought were the pertinent issues.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Thank you very much.

MR SEMENYA: .

MR SEMENYA: I might indicate Chairperson, that our understanding is there has already been a questioning in terms of the closed hearings.  The record of those questionings have become public knowledge now and it is in the possession of everybody including the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Hanif?

UNKNOWN: Thank you Archbishop.  Maybe I should just sort myself out, maybe we can just adjourn for a short while, I really thought this was going to run much longer.  Is it possible to stand for about five, ten minutes Archbishop?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, if you say so.  I think so.  We will resume at ten o'clock.

UNKNOWN: Ten o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Your five minutes is long.  All right, ten o'clock.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Do you people understand English?  Thank you, please settle.  Thank you very much.  Mr Vally.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Archbishop.  Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, let me start off with the Mandela United Football Club.  You acknowledge that the Mandela United Football Club wasn't just the soccer team which originally started, but also consisted of a number of young men who moved with the soccer team and moved generally with the people who visited your house regularly, in their tracksuits, in their uniforms accompanying you to funerals, marches, rallies, whatever.  Do you acknowledge that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Do you acknowledge that the Mandela United Football Club was a source of controversy within Soweto?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: That subsequently happened.

UNKNOWN: When you say subsequently happened, can you tell us in which year?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I wouldn't remember the exact  years.  I think it is common knowledge.

UNKNOWN: Do you remember which year that the soccer club originated, which year it was established?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think it could have been around 1985, 1986, I am not sure of the exact year.

UNKNOWN: It was after you came back from Brandfort?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: When I returned from Brandfort.

UNKNOWN: You advised us that the Club had been disbanded on instructions from your husband when you saw him in prison.  Can you tell us a date?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Chairperson, can I tell you what?

UNKNOWN: The date please?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Oh, I wouldn't remember the exact date, but I think it could have been 1986, 1987, around those years.

UNKNOWN: Why I am asking is that subsequently your young men in uniform travelling with you, driven by Morgan, were seen at other venues, are you aware of that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I was subsequently aware of the fact that they were using these uniforms.

UNKNOWN: And travelling with you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, at times I did go along with them.

UNKNOWN: So on what basis do you say that the Club was disbanded when you were still moving around with them?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: On what basis?

UNKNOWN: Do you say the Club was disbanded?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: The Club was disbanded Chairperson.  The disbanding of the Club did not necessarily mean the withdrawal of the uniform.  Regrettably I did not confiscate those uniforms after the Club was disbanded and that is just what happened.