Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

ADV MEMANI: Who is Nzito?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I'm referring here to Sergeant Mamome, Nzito.
	He asked us whether we did take out the task, we agreed.  They could see now what is it that we've been asked at all times.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I don't understand you, what are you saying?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I'm saying because Miningwa, Mtyala and David - they were not given a direct command, myself and Mamome were given the command.  Now, when Colonel Coetzee at the parade, asked myself and Sergeant Mamome whether we did carry out the job, they just nodded meaning, they didn't know when we were asked at times whether we did take out the job we were given, what that meant.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, did you say Mr interpreter - did you say they nodded their heads or they bowed their heads.

INTERPRETER: They bowed their heads.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: We went for tea.  Whilst having tea, Inspector Bester came to us in a hurry - he was even sad, angry, so much that he uttered a word that: "your Major forgot that I'm not of your unit, I'm here just to assist".  He said: "boys, Major Coetzee said we must go to Brandfort and look at the house - how far it burnt down.  He wanted to make sure that the house really burnt down.  I left with Inspector Bester.  He was not of our unit, he has never been a member of our unit, he just worked in the office.  Working with us, dealing with matters dealing with the security police.
	If maybe, before I continue that it may happen, that they say he was of our unit, that would be a mistake and again I hope that they could have forged their papers.  He was working with us but he was not of our unit.

ADV MEMANI: To which unit did he belong at this stage?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He was in the investigative unit.

ADV MEMANI: Was he - is that CID's?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He left from ...

ADV MEMANI: You may proceed.

INTERPRETER: It's in Afrikaans, we don't know the English word.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I'd like to know what he's just said please, if I may.  The interpreter says he spoke Afrikaans - I heard him speak a Black language, I'm not sure.

INTERPRETER: He used a term in Afrikaans so we're waiting for the interpretation from the Afrikaans booth.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I said whilst we were working there under the security branch, Inspector Bester - I'll repeat, Inspector Bester was never part of the security branch, he was under the ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: We're waiting for the Afrikaans term again.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He made his applications whilst he was working with us until he was accepted.  I don't know how long he was a member of the security branch.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think we can't hear that word, what is that word?  You say he was a member of what?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: CID, Fuchsware.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, if I might be of assistance, the CID department in Bloemfontein is housed in a building called Fuchsware building.  That's where all the CID's in Bloemfontein is housed at and that's what he referred to.

ADV MEMANI: And you say he applied to join the security branch whilst working under - already working for security branch?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is so.

ADV MEMANI: Now you may proceed.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: We left with him to Winnie's place in Brandfort.  When we arrived there we found - I don't know as whether they were journalists or they were coming from SABC.  They were there with their cameras taking photos.  We alighted from the car and no-one was telling anyone what we should do.  He said to me Boyzi, let's see as if we're going to inspect.  We went there, then from there we went back to the car, then we came back to Bloemfontein.
	I alighted from the car then he went - I went to the office, then I took my own route, then I went to town because he was the one who was sent to go and inspect,  he's was the one who should respond or give a feedback.

ADV MEMANI: Now, that concludes the applications in respect of Winnie Mandela.  The next one is contained in paragraph 3 at page 146.  Yes, may you proceed with that application - the house of Bobby Sebotsa.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It was in the morning.  All of them have left, I was left with Mamome.  They were frustrated, they didn't know exactly which house should be bombed.  Whether it was Bobby Sebotsa's mother's house in - or the brother to Bobby Sebotsa, he was staying at his mother's place.  Then he would leave and go to his brother's house at Mbinda.
	This gentleman, mainly he was known by Lieutenant Erasmus.  We were - we used to travel - him because according to his file when it was opened - I don't know how we can find those files because they were taken by NI.   After the Goldstone Commission made a mistake - I think it was in 1993, all these files which I'm talking about were taken by NI and they hid them.

ADV MEMANI: Just one second, are you saying NI or NR?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is national intelligence which fell under Captain Prinsloo.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I think the witnesses has actually been saying NI all along but I think the interpreter has been mishearing because the interpreter kept on saying NR instead of NI.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is a thing which causes problems because we're talking about files and those files are not available.  We're talking about people who were harassed and within those files there are harassment's and torture of every comrade and every organisation.  And I want to put something clear, if we talk of units we talk of White units and then Coloured units and Black units.  I want to put this clear that is why I would say these files would put this thing clear.
	Whites whom we were talking about were Whites who fell under SACCP, African National Congress and COSATU.  We're not speaking of all White citizens in South Africa, we speak of Joe Slovo and company.  Those are the kinds of White people we were talking about and again to make it clear, when I talk of these files, I speak of those files when we talk of Black people only and the few Whites who were helping Black people.
	This Bobby Sebotsa had a crash course - when I talk of a crash course, he received a training from Lesotho about explosives that is why I call him an MK member because when you receive a crash course, we'd classify you as a person who has been trained.  That was a problem as to whether his mother's house or his brother's house should be bombed.  
	They made a decision that his brother's house should be bombed because we have his brother's files also, they would understand.  They would leave or sever their relationship with their comrades.

ADV MEMANI: May you repeat?  You said they decided to - that whose house should be burnt?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Bobby's brother's house because he was staying at his brother's house at some time.  It was a bigger house as compared to his mother's house because his mother's house was that of Municipality.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Motsamai, have a look at paragraph 3 of your application, you say the house that was bombed was his parental house.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, I took him as his parent - they were under his care.

ADV MEMANI: You may proceed.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: They took a decision - that is Coetzee and Shaw that this house should be bombed.  They wanted to take out money and then we reminded him about the petrol whom we took it from the car.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: How long did you keep this petrol that you had taken out of the Datsun Laurel?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It's for a long time, I don't remember how many months.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You kept it for months?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, before this incident.