Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-04

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: If I'm supposed to explain - we shouldn't have go and attack various houses without obtaining instructions.  Understand that when you get instructions from the officers it's verbal that we are supposed to go and do some - certain activities, it's not been written so that it must be used as statement or affidavit so that we're supposed to sign.
	That in such a day we went to Colonel Loots to be given instructions, what is happening here.  Those people were not arrested because of those incidents.  I came here to the Truth Commission and they realised that they are going to deny all those activities if myself as Colonel Loots, I've given the instructions and knowing that it was wrong to petrol-bomb houses while they were asleep.  
	I shouldn't have agreed with those instructions and even Ngo won't be able to prove that I've given those instructions because they refused those activities.  I'm really surprised how will I volunteer to attack those houses in Mamelodi and even here in Bloemfontein making those petrol bombs for my own benefit or reward, what was the main purpose of that?  That is the only thing I can give to you so far.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes Mr Ngo, Captain Loots and Bokaba are applying for amnesty for incidents which are far worse than these petrol-bombings that you are mentioning here and I just put it to you that it is improbable that they - where they have applied for amnesty in respect of all the incidents they were involved in, they would not have applied for these incidents.  So, I put it to you that it is improbable that they were ever involved in these incidents that you applied for amnesty for.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Captain Loots has given us some instructions and we did follow those instructions together with those people I was working with them.  I'm not here in front of the Commission saying Captain Loots petrol-bombed the houses but he has given us some instructions to bomb the houses and even providing us with suitable reasons.

CHAIRPERSON: If you are going to carry on with that argument, we should get copies of the application shouldn't we, we should arrange for the copies of these applications to be made available.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.  Mr Chairman, the applications have been handed to the Truth Commission, we don't have the applications with us now obviously but that can be arranged - there shouldn't be a problem with that.  Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: Thank you Mr Chairman, I won't be long.
	Mr Ngo, I just want you to help me in regard to the - to clarification of matters relating to Mr White Mohapi.  You've told 
the Committee that Mohapi was a source of considerable irritation to the security branch because of his political activities, is that correct?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is true.

MR BRINK: And if my memory serves me correctly, you said he was arrested from time to time.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is true.

MR BRINK: Are you able to tell the Committee, as far as you remember, how many times he was arrested?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I'm not able to tell the Committee how many times he was arrested but I would only explain to the Committee that he was arrested for public violence during the state of emergency incitement and things like that, so he was arrested many times in regard to those acts I've mentioned.

MR BRINK: Four of five time?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It may be so or more than there, I'm not able to verify that.

MR BRINK: You say he was arrested for public violence and he was taken to court and charged with public violence?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: There are other incidents where he was arrested and ...[intervention]

MR BRINK: No, no, please just listen to the question and we'll get finished more quickly, just listen to the question and please answer it.   How many times - you say he was arrested for public violence, was he taken to court and charged with public violence - either he was or he wasn't?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He liked throwing stones and he was arrested, taken to the police station.  I was not investigating that but I know that he was arrested for public violence, I don't know as whether he was prosecuted for that or not but I know that he was arrested for public violence.

MR BRINK: Was he arrested for any other criminal offence to your knowledge?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, that is true.

MR BRINK: What?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is the time when they stabbed me.

MR BRINK: And he was acquitted?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No - yes, he was acquitted.

MR BRINK: Was he arrested for any other criminal offence to your knowledge?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, he was arrested during the state of emergency.  You are not taken to court during the state of emergency.

MR BRINK: No, no, no, please listen ...[intervention]

ADV MEMANI: Mr Brink, let the witness finish, it may not be the right answer ...[intervention]

MR BRINK: I'm not prepared to allow the witness to evade the answer to my question, my question is a simple one and please answer it.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, I think ...[intervention]

MR BRINK: Please, don't interrupt me Mr Memani.

ADV MEMANI: Sir, I'm entitled to object ...[intervention]

MR BRINK: Please, do not interrupt me Mr Memani.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you objecting to Mr Memani?

ADV MEMANI: I'm objecting to him inter - asking the next question before the first question - the answer is finished.

CHAIRPERSON: You have now objected on that ground repeatedly and I think on every single occasion, the applicant has confirmed that he'd already given his answer.

ADV MEMANI: But on this occasion he was still answering.

MR BRINK: He was not answering me, he was evading my question.  Please let me continue.
	You have told us that he was arrested for public violence and you don't know the outcome of that case, is that correct or is it not correct?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, that is true.

MR BRINK: You told us he was arrested for assault in relation to you and he was acquitted.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is true.

MR BRINK: To your knowledge, was he arrested in respect to any other criminal offence?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, I don't know.

MR BRINK: Well, now let's get to the security arrests.  How many times to your knowledge, was he arrested under security laws and detained?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Around '85 and '86, he was arrested.

MR BRINK: How many times, was my question?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He said he didn't know, he said four to five times - he didn't know, he can't remember, he can't say.

MR BRINK: Are you able to give any indication as to whether he was arrested under security legislation more than once?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I wouldn't know, he was arrested in any instances.  When I arrived I would find him detained in the cell with other officers except us.  I would not know why he was detained or arrested, he was detained many times.  I wouldn't know the results of those detentions because we're not only engaged in him, we were engaged with other people.

MR BRINK: But you've told the Committee he was detained on many occasions under security legislation.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, I did say that.  When he was arrested at Hilton police station, that was the other incident where he was detained under security laws.

MR BRINK: So, if he was arrested under security legislation on a number of occasions, it follows does it not, that he must have been released on a number of occasions.