Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-17

MR MAPOMA: Did he tell you the reason why specifically those Officers, those specific Officers whom you went to fetch, did he tell you the reason why they were wanted?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: He didn't, he was not specific.  I went to those Officers because we were fetching the Police.  He was not specific.  He didn't tell me to go and fetch those Officers.

MR MAPOMA: When you went to fetch those Officers, who were you in the company of?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: I remember Matigani, I can't remember others because he was the one who was next to me as I was the driver.

MR MAPOMA: Amongst the applicants who are the applicants at this hearing, is there anyone with whom you were when you went to fetch those Officers, do you recall?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: No, there is no one applicant who was with me in that car.

MR MAPOMA: The Officers, did you perceive them as having anything to do with Gqozo, whom you wanted to step down as Head of State?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: I can say so because they didn't complain.

MR MAPOMA: I don't follow you.  Did you get my question?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: Can you please repeat it.

MR MAPOMA: My question is those Officers whom you went to fetch or who were brought into the hall, Officers who were brought into the hall, did you perceive them as having anything to do with Gqozo, whom you wanted to step down?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: Yes, because they were the ones who were used by him.

MR MAPOMA: When they were brought in, during the time they were inside the hall, where were you, were you inside the hall or outside the hall?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: Can you please repeat the question?

MR MAPOMA: During that time when you were at the College, were you inside or outside the hall, you, yourself?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: I was in and out.  I was not sitting in one place, I was not inside the hall the whole time.

MR MAPOMA: Is it correct therefore, that you did not follow all the proceedings which were taking place in that hall?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: Yes, there are things that I didn't follow because I was not always inside the hall.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma.  Has the panel got any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: No questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got re-examination?

MR OBOSE: Yes, one question Mr Chairman.  You mentioned Mr Potwana, that the Officers also spoke.  What do you remember them saying inside the hall with regard to what was going on?  I understood you to have been answering in that context.

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: Because there was a meeting, it was not quiet.  Everybody was participating, everybody was saying something.  Those Officers were not keeping quiet while they were there.

MR OBOSE: What I want to know is did they join in what was going on, did they oppose it?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: They joined because they were not just sitting there, they were part of what we were doing.

MR OBOSE: Did they sing, did they sloganeer or what?

KAYALETU NUAN POTWANA: I didn't get near to their place, so I don't know.

MR OBOSE: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Potwana, thank you, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR OBOSE: Mr Chairman, at this stage, may I ask for a very short adjournment.  I looks like me and my learned colleagues must now decide, it may possibly shorten the proceedings in some form.  We had some discussions but we had not yet concluded.  I don't think the adjournment will be more than 10 minutes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn for 10 minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Obose, what is the position with the remaining applicants?

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I think there are about four of them.

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I am instructed that the two at least applicants, Sibuqashe, Toto and Nqinana, were doing VIP duties in the Presidential entourage, with the Presidential entourage in Pretoria.  They were released this morning, roundabout ten o'clock.  They phoned, confirming that tomorrow morning they will be available to proceed with their applications, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, with regard to the last applicant, Mr S.S. Gola, though I understand that he is no withdrawing the application, I understand that he is mentally incapacitated and that is generally understood by the victims as well.  With regard to the other applicant, Mr Chairman, Mr Kolele, he was informed by one of the applicants and however told one of my applicants that he had some urgent business to attend to in the Northern Transvaal.  Mr Chairman, it does seem that if he is not here by tomorrow, I will have no option but to close on behalf of the applicants, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: What is his name, sorry Mr Obose?

MR OBOSE: Mr Kolele, N.Z. Kolele, pages 79 to 85, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yes.   So you are asking that those matters stand down until tomorrow morning?

MR OBOSE: That is correct Mr Chairman, with regard to those that should be here tomorrow.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Nompozolo, you have a few witnesses that you would be calling.  Given the situation that has arisen, is it possible for us to listen to the testimony of some of those witnesses in the meantime, not to waste any time?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Yes Mr Chairman, that is correct.  I've got witnesses, three witnesses who we can proceed with, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo.    Ms Collett and Mr Mapoma, under these circumstances I intend to listen to the witnesses of Mr Nompozolo, just to start with listening to in the mean time.  I assume you don't have any objection to that procedure?

MS COLLETT: I have no objection.

MR MAPOMA: I have no objection Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.   Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I am going to call the victim Makwethu.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makwethu, can you give your full names for the record please?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: Thozamile Joseph Makwethu.

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.  Mr Nompozolo?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Makwethu, during the month of March 1994, were you a member of the then Ciskei Police Force?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And do you still recall the events of the 22nd to the 23rd of March 1994?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: That is correct.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Can you tell the Commission what happened on that day?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: On the 22nd of March 1994, I was at work.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: As we were sitting in the office, we didn't know anything about what was happening.  I saw that there was nobody else, I was only with Lieutenant Gqibithole who is a Captain today.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: We were in Captain Gqibithole's office.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Approximately what time was it?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: It was about three o'clock.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, then what happened?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: As we were still sitting there, there was nothing we were doing and there was nobody and when we were looking through the window at the Commissioner's office I saw that there were Police around there, Riot Squat Unit.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: Then Captain Gqibithole said to me, he asked me what was happening and then I said I didn't know what was happening.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Okay, ultimately did anybody arrive at your office where you were?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Who is it?

THOZAMILE JOSEPH MAKWETHU: I think Sergeant Tondile arrived, who was working at the Fingerprint Unit.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Who else?