Amnesty Hearings — Mabopane — 1998-08-06

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Good.  It is common cause that we all know that we do have that democratic regime at this moment.

MR POTSANE: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Good.  The killing of Molope - let me put it this way, in your own mind do you thing we would not have achieved what we have today if Molope had not been killed?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe surely, are you implying, are you suggesting that the killing of Brigadier Molope was the key factor in the attainment of liberation?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, you can ask the question but I really don't see the point of it because they've put it there, they've stated that a general association with the unit and the role that they played, and as you've said this is just an extract.  We are only dealing with one of various incidents, so to put it to him or ask him to answer to say that if just the killing, the assassination of Brigadier Molope, if it didn't take place we wouldn't have the democracy we have now is a little bit over the top I would say.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairperson, I hear what the Chair says but to respond to what the Chair said, I mentioned to the applicant that under 10(a) and I quoted what he said and he said: "That is what is in his application" ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but 10(a) is an application for a whole lot of other incidents of which we are only hearing one.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Correct Mr Chairman, but I singled it out for the purpose of ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You can ask him.

ADV MOTATA: No, before he does Mr Chairman, if we have regard to 9(a) which refers to acts, there are actually three and we are seized with number two.  You can find the Shell House incident, you find others which are supposed to be annexed to Annexure A which is not before us, so I want you, I'm not going to say you shouldn't ask the question, but the tenor of the question shouldn't revolve on the general objective which they wanted to achieve to get a democratic regime.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you, I stand corrected.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the important word in 10(a) is the furtherance of obtaining that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is my point Mr Chairman, the furtherance.

CHAIRPERSON: The furtherance?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's unfair to ask him if he thinks that there wouldn't be this democracy if they didn't do that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, ...[intervention]

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mpshe ...[intervention]

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That word is the crux of my questioning, the furtherance of obtaining the democratic regime.  Perhaps to satisfy the Committee's dissatisfaction I will put it the other way around.
	What was the purpose of eliminating Mr Mangope, Mr Molope, I'm sorry, he's not dead.

MR POTSANE: As I've already stated, Mr Molope had, was involved in a number of incidents which were not actually satisfactory to the general population, especially around Winterveld and Mabopane.  He was known for his acts which were very brutal and as a member of MK you know with my duty, because if Mr Molope had not been eliminated who knows how many people he could have killed, maybe another 100.  So our - as I was part of this or I agreed because in defence of the people.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Alright.  I will put the same question in another way.  Perhaps the way I phrased it did not come to you.  What did you seek to achieve by killing Mr Molope?

MR POTSANE: Well we were fighting a war of liberation and in that war of liberation there are two opposing sides, and in that other side, Mr Molope was on the other side and he clearly used his powers or abused his powers to maim, to hurt other people and in so doing, in so killing him I aimed to protect our people in order so that our people cannot suffer anymore.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I see.  If I have to hinge on the last portion of your answer, his death was merely to protect the people?

MR POTSANE: That is correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Good.  Did you intend to bring about any change in the then status quo by his death?

MR POTSANE: Obviously you know ...[intervention]

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you say: "No"?

MR POTSANE: Obviously - I didn't say "No", I'm still kind of carrying on.  Obviously you know, sorry - obviously an act like that one will have certain effects, especially the kind of effects which have the lowering of the moral within the Boputhatswana Police and you'll find that even the government of Boputhatswana at that time will feel like our fight is getting closer to them and as head figures they will never feel safe anymore.  Including the apartheid states you know, it affected them in that they've lost one of their foot soldiers you know, who was prepared to do dirty work for them.

MR POTSANE: Mr Potsane, I had asked you about the contents of paragraph 10(a) of your application, that is page 23, the one that I read under: Political Objective, do you have a copy there?

MR POTSANE: No, I don't have a copy.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Do you see paragraph 10(a) right at the bottom?

MR POTSANE: Yes, I've read it.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Just one simple question, was this paragraph put in by yourself for this particular incident?

MR POTSANE: For this particular incident?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The Molope incident only?

MR POTSANE: In this particular - if we may have to discuss this part of the paragraph in relation to all the operations, but for this particular incident I would say all my actions was the undermining and weakening of the state.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, I see that.  What I want to establish from you, you say this is relevant to this incident?

MR POTSANE: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.  That is all Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe.  Mr Molope, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR MOLOPE: Mr Potsane, you did not kill Brigadier Molope did you?

MR POTSANE: I did not.

MR MOLOPE: Were you present when he was killed?

MR POTSANE: I was not present.

MR MOLOPE: Where you present when they discussed his killing?

MR POTSANE: Yes, I was.

MR MOLOPE: But you wanted him to be killed?

MR POTSANE: ...[no English translation]

MR MOLOPE: Did you want him to be killed?

MR POTSANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOLOPE: In other words, even if they gave you the responsibility to kill him, were you going to kill him?

MR POTSANE: Yes, that is so.

MR MOLOPE: Mr Potsane tell me, in South Africa as a whole people were dying but you decided to kill my father.  Many people were killed in other places where there were more than
those who were killed in the Winterveld Massacre.  I want to know as to why you chose to kill my father.

MR POTSANE: Our duties were that we should work around Pretoria, that is from Mamelodi, Ga-Rankuwa, Mabopane, Winterveld.  That is our are in which we were deployed in so that we should work in.  So Mr Molope was within our operational area.  We did not go to fetch him from Mafeking to kill him here, we found him here.  This incident happened in our operational zone in Pretoria.

MR MOLOPE: If he did not come to Pretoria or around Pretoria, were you not able to go to Mafeking?

MR POTSANE: Our operational area was Pretoria as I've already said.  It would have been difficult for us to go and work outside our operational areas.  We did not have bases, we did not have safe houses in Mafeking.

MR MOLOPE: In your discussions you knew that Mr Molope was supposed to be killed.

MR POTSANE: Yes.

MR MOLOPE: If he was not in your operational area in Mafeking you would come to him in Mabopane?

MR POTSANE: As I've already said Chairperson, our operational area was Pretoria.  It would have been difficult for us to go and work outside our operational area, like in Soweto.  There are other areas which are near but Mafeking is too far from our operational area, it would be difficult for us to go and work there because our bases were in Pretoria.

MR MOLOPE: After you heard that Mr Molope was killed, how did you feel?