Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-12

MR PRINSLOO: It could have been the best place to come together, the road house cafe, because according to the evidence the vehicles then went to their own directions, because then they only used two vehicles, and that is probably the most likely answer.  That is a point of argument.

MR MALAN: I do not dispute or question, I do agree that there was a meeting at the road house, I do not dispute that, I am just not following the line of cross-examination.

MR PRINSLOO: It was done Mr Chairperson, to show the difference between what this witness said that he said we are going to work tonight, and the others in that there was an instruction.

MR MALAN: With respect, it has nothing to do with the place where they would come together.

MR PRINSLOO: I will leave that to argument.  Mr Van der Schyff, you have heard the evidence of your co-applicants?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Where they said that at the road house it was specifically said that Gen Oelofse gave instruction that the revolution begins that evening and that corpses have to be seen that evening?  Is that correct?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct, yes, I heard what the other applicants said, I dispute it.

MR PRINSLOO: The intake of alcohol that specific evening, did it influence you in any way?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No.

MR PRINSLOO: If you look at the evidence that was given  at the road house cafe, it is very clear that there was an ordered road block.  The road block was not set up as it was supposed to be, but a road block that would serve the purpose of that evening as you were not traffic cops?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And there was proper communication between you, between the people on the ground?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, there was communication between us.

MR PRINSLOO: And you could clearly see what instruction was given beforehand, what vehicles must drive, who must be pulled off?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, that is true.

MR PRINSLOO: So it was not like people were drunk and acted like that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No.

MR PRINSLOO: You took a leather jacket from a vehicle?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct yes.

MR PRINSLOO: You said that Matthews took tapes as well as tools?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: In the AWB, does the AWB have an Intelligence Agent?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And the AWB people, would they have listened to these tapes, maybe there is something they could use?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, they could have listened to it, but that is not what exactly happened.  At the Town Hall Mr Andre Visser said that he also wanted something.
	Matthews then handed these tapes to him.  Matthews kept the tape holder and Mr Meiring took the tools.

MR PRINSLOO: I will put it to you that Mr Matthews used the tools and the other items, he had an instruction and it was for the purpose of the AWB.

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: It was the first time that I heard that he had that instruction.

MR PRINSLOO: He would have listened to the tapes in that there could have been incitement or some information on them?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I do not know about them.

MR PRINSLOO: Sir, I would like to put it to you that in many cases tapes and books were made and with a different content than the cover shows?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct yes.

MR PRINSLOO: I put it to you that the clients I represent received such an instruction at the road house, as I already told you.

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is their application.

MR PRINSLOO: I have no further questions, thank you.  Just one further aspect, seeing that it is eleven o'clock, just as far as the handing over of the weapons are concerned.
	Would it be an appropriate time now to adjourn or can I ask him?
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: (s.u.o)

MR DREYER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I would like to refer you to the video which was shown here when Mr Kloppers was giving evidence, can you remember that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, I can remember that.

MR DREYER: It concerned the speech of Mr Eugene Terreblanche and a transcription was also handed in as Exhibit 1 of which the second paragraph reads as follows:  "an unarmed white man in South Africa is a dead man.  You must arm yourself.  If you are not going to buy a weapon, if you can't buy one, or if they do not want to give you a licence for a weapon because you are white, go and steal it, but get a weapon".

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR DREYER: I want to go back to that instruction.  You said that the only instruction that was given at the road house cafe was that we are going to work?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR DREYER: You also said that when you received a firearm, you foresaw the possibility that there might be a shooting, but no instruction to such extent was given to you?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct Chairperson.

MR DREYER: If I understand you correctly, at no stage up until the road block, up until Visser came to you and told you that this weapon you are going to fire tonight, because from higher up in the rank structure, that there is going to be such instruction, there was no such instruction, is that correct?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR DREYER: Okay, let's assume at Martin's house, for the first time you are informed that the thing you are going to do tonight, is holding a road block, is that correct?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR DREYER: Then you are asked by your legal representative what according to you, was explained to you, what would be the purpose of the road block and I wrote down your answer and it came down to this, that you had to look for illegal weapons and ammunition, is that correct?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR DREYER: And that was the only purpose which was explained to you?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR DREYER: Now let's assume for the moment that Japie Oelofse did indeed give an instruction, the General Staff gave an instruction, go, have a road block, look for illegal weapons and if you find them, take them because that is the way to arm ourselves and it is a way to obtain funds for the AWB, would you have had any problem with such an instruction?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I wouldn't have had a problem with such an instruction.

MR DREYER: That is the one scenario.   The other scenario is if I refer you back to the transcription of what Eugene Terreblanche said in that speech, isn't that exactly a call which can be interpreted as go and get some weapons, isn't that what he said?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct.

MR DREYER: And you said you wouldn't have had a problem with that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: No, I wouldn't have.

MR DREYER: So as far as you are concerned, when you were told at Martin's house after it was said at the road house you are going to work, now it is said to you we are going out, we are going to have a road block and we are going to search for firearms, you had no problem with that?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I had no problem with that.

MR DREYER: At that stage, at Martin's house, did you learn anything else from Kloppers?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Nothing.