Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:   As I was following I was just following them.  They reached an open ground which looked like a stadium.  That was where you could play soccer.

MR MARAIS: Was Mr Mxenge taken out of the car at the stadium?

MR MARAIS: /---   Yes,

MR MARAIS: ---   Yes, they took him out.  When I arrived it was just rush, push, push.  They were dragging him out of the car.

MR MARAIS: And what happened then?

WITNESS:   There was stabbing.  Well, the mention(?) of stabbing went on.  It was like a fight.

MR MARAIS: Did you stab Mr Mxenge?

WITNESS:   Yes, I did.

MR MARAIS: Who else stabbed him?

WITNESS:   Almond and Joe Mamasela.

MR MARAIS: What did Brian Ngulungwa do?

WITNESS:   I can tell you that he was holding a pistol.

MR MARAIS: After the stabbing where did you go?

WITNESS:   We went to C R Swart Police Station, at the gate outside.

MR MARAIS: Did you meet there with Dirk Coetzee?

WITNESS:   Well, I am not very sure whether I met Almond.  These other people went in to call him because we were standing - we were just parked outside.

MR MARAIS: (Inaudible) ... received R1 000,00 later.

WITNESS:   Yes.

MR MARAIS: Do you know what that was for?

WITNESS:   The way it appeared it was like in appreciation of the mission that we have rendered.

MR MARAIS: Did you know before you committed this act that you were going to receive money afterwards?

WITNESS:   No.  There was not any idea about that.

MR MARAIS: Did you at any occasion question orders which you received from your superiors?

WITNESS:   Could you repeat the question please?

MR MARAIS: Did you at any time question orders that you received from your superiors?

WITNESS:   It was very difficult to question the authority, because there were a lot of things that other people were doing that one could

MR MARAIS: /not ask

MR MARAIS: not ask where they were coming from and why.

MR MARAIS: At Vlakplaas did you ever see any of Dirk Coetzee's superior officers at the farm?

WITNESS:   Are you referring to Dirk Coetzee's seniors, or what?  Could you be very clear with that regard?

MR MARAIS: (Inaudible) ... senior officers of Dirk Coetzee.

WITNESS:   Yes, there were a lot of people who were in Vlakplaas.

MR MARAIS: Do you know any of their names?

WITNESS:   Colonel Victor was there.

MR MARAIS: (Inaudible)

WITNESS:   Victor.  Brigadier Skoon.  A number of them used to come because that's an office.  There were a lot of people coming.

MR MARAIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.   Mr Chairman, I see it is 1 o'clock now.  This is probably a good time for the break.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll take an adjournment now and resume at 2 o'clock.
LONG ADJOURNMENT
ON RESUMPTION
DAVID TSHIKALANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please proceed.

MR MARAIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.   Mr Tshikalanga, the body of Mr Mxenge had a great number of stab wounds when it was discovered.  If I am not mistaken it was in the region of 40.  Why was it necessary - or regarded as necessary to inflict that many wounds, or for what reason then were so many wounds inflicted?

WITNESS:   If I am telling the truth it is not because - it is because he was

MR MARAIS: /fighting

MR MARAIS: fighting for himself, and because he was fighting it's then that we were forced to stab him so.

MR MARAIS: Can you tell the Committee what each member of your group did during the fight?

WITNESS:   What I can say is this.  I, Almond, Joe Mamasela, we were involved in stabbing him all of us.

MR MARAIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I have no further questions from the applicant.

MR MARAIS: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARAIS

CHAIRPERSON: I'd like you to explain to me what you mean when you say that Mr Mxenge was fighting for himself.  Tell me how he was fighting.

WITNESS:   In the beginning, while we started stabbing him and while he was forced out of his car, it was not an easy task, but they were dragging him, and they dragged him out of the car and he was refusing.  And then there was an incident in which we started to stab him.  He was not just offering himself as a sacrifice, but he was refusing when he had the pains.  He tried to defend for himself.  Even by hands and all he was trying to fight.

CHAIRPERSON:  My question was how the fight took place?  What was he doing when you say he was trying to fight?

WITNESS:   I mean he was trying to fight using his blows and fists.

CHAIRPERSON: So, until he was hit on the head with this spanner he was still on his feet?

WITNESS:   Yes, he was fighting still on his feet.

WILSON J: We've been told that you were the first person to stab him.  Do you agree with this?

WITNESS:   To tell the truth I cannot tell if I am the first one or not, but what I know is this, I stabbed him.  It's true that I stabbed him.

WILSON J: /We were

WILSON J: We were told he was dragged out of the car by Joe Mamasela and that you then immediately stabbed him.

WITNESS:  I am not sure that that is true.  The way he is putting it is the way in which he is thinking it happened in that way, but I am not sure if I am the first person to stab him, or I might not be the first person.

WILSON J: But you were present, you took part in the stabbing until it was over.  Is that so?

WITNESS:   Yes, it's true.

WILSON J: And you saw him being hit over the head with the spanner, and he fell to the ground.

WITNESS:   Yes, it's true.

WILSON J: And you stayed there - all right, so you saw all that happened.

WITNESS:   Yes, I saw everything.

WILSON J: Can you tell me who cut his throat, almost cut his throat off?

WITNESS:   I mean that thing happened - it happened while we were all busy working, doing the same duty, and I cannot remember between Almond and Joe Mamasela.

WILSON J: So it was Almond or Joe Mamasela you say?

WITNESS:   Yes, it might be that.

WILSON J: I presume he was lying on the ground by then.

WITNESS:  Yes, because he was beaten by the spanner to fall down.

WILSON J: (Inaudible) ... had been knocked down by the spanner and was lying on the ground when this was done, no longer a danger to anybody.  Is that so?

WITNESS:   It might be so.

WILSON J: And who cut his stomach wide open?  Or who cut his stomach open?

WITNESS:   There I might tell the truth, because we were doing this stabbing, being three, and it was in the dark, and everyone was doing his duty, so that I cannot tell who is responsible for cutting the stomach open.

WILSON J: /Was he

WILSON J: Was he then lying on the ground again?

WITNESS:   I am not sure.  I might tell the lies.  I don't know.  Maybe he was standing while he was cut opened, but I don't know whether he was on the ground or on his feet.

WILSON J: You're not suggesting that after his stomach had been cut open he remained standing fighting, are you?

WITNESS:   You mean when he was doing what?

WILSON J: Are you suggesting that after his stomach was cut open he remained on his feet fighting against you?

WITNESS:  What you are saying is something which I did not observe, and maybe I am not sure, but what I know is this.  That stomach was opened while he was still on his feet, because he was stabbed so many times while he was still standing, without taking into consideration into which part of the body.

WILSON J: All the stab wounds are on the front of his body, is that so?

WITNESS:   To tell the truth I stabbed once by that knife which remained in the body, and I was unable to remove it from the body.  I stabbed first in the front of him.

WILSON J: Are you now saying you stabbed him once, and your knife then stuck in the body and you were unable to remove it?

WITNESS:   Yes, true.

WILSON J: Do you remember you gave evidence at the Harms Commission, when you made a statement?

WITNESS:   Yes.

WILSON J: And you remember that in your initial statement you said you were a mere onlooker.

WITNESS:   I will ask your question again - repeat your question.

WILSON J: Do you remember saying in your initial statement that you were a mere onlooker?