Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR STANDER: Yes possible that would be indicated. In the light of another aspect, may I with your permission, ask another question?  I will deal with it in one or two questions I promise.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Sorry, before you do that Mr Stander, is your client here?

MR STANDER: Are you referring to Mr Makubalo?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes. Is he able to remember the date on which this instant happened, one would think that he would remember that date.

MR STANDER: Unfortunately Mr Commissioner, I've been asking him the exact date, but he cannot remember it, but he although he says to me that he can still remember the incident were he was arrested happened before the incident were 19 people were arrested.
    That he told me specifically  but unfortunately he cannot remember the exact date.

MR VISSER: My learned friend has just put as a fact to this witness that it was before April 1986, surely that must come from somewhere. Could my learned friend tell me where he gets this information from?

MR STANDER: I told the Committee already, Mr Chairman that the information came from Mr Makubalo.
    He says to us, he said to me - he instructed me that this incident where he was arrested happened before the incident where the 19 people whereof he was a part, were arrested. That's my instructions, I've already told the Committee that.
    Mr Morakile, please tell me, Mr Motsamai went to arrest a person who had killed somebody else, this informant of his, am I correct in that respect?

MR MORAKILE: That's correct.

MR STANDER: In other word he went to arrest a suspect on a murder charge?

MR MORAKILE: That's correct.

MR STANDER: Then he came on the scene, there was a group of you who saw this, there was the person who was the suspect and he was running away.

MR MORAKILE: Yes, he was running and we chased after him.

MR STANDER: You know what I can't understand about your denial and the denial of everybody else because if shots had been fired, it was totally legal in terms of our law.  I don't understand why you don't want to admit to this.

ADV DE JAGER: They're admitting that shots were fired, they say the shots were fired by Motsamai.  And I don't think anybody put it to them whether you considered those shots to be justified in the circumstances that prevailed.

MR STANDER: Thank you Mr Commissioner.
	 I would like to state to you Mr Morakile, that if somebody else had fired shots in the direction of Oupa Makubalo, there was absolutely nothing wrong with it.  And I find it strange that every single person who'd been involved there deny this absolutely.

MR MORAKILE: Motsamai shot, you must understand, he was hurt because his informer was killed and he was desperate to arrest this person.

MR STANDER: I have no further questions for the witness, thank you Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

MR VISSER: One question, perhaps in re-examination.  Did you personally know Mr Oupa Makubalo on the day when you were requested to go and assist Mr Motsamai to arrest him, did you know who it was?

MR MORAKILE: I knew him afterwards.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, we will attempt to obtain the SAP record for you which will hopefully show when he was transferred from wherever to the security branch in Bloemfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: His pocket book should also show what he was doing on the day in question.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, we will try to find those but they're notoriously difficult to trace but we'll try to find those as well.
    Mr Chairman, if you're waiting for me I must inform you at this stage, I've run dry of witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: How on earth?  We've had nine months or something to get this thing going.  Surely the police can arrange to have people here. We're told that we're not going to finish and you assured me before the adjournment that we wouldn't finish this week.  At this rate we certainty won't if at quarter past three you have run out of witnesses.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I just place on record: this is the very first time that I have forced any sort of delay before this Committee.  My witnesses were here, I could never have anticipated that we'd go this quickly, that matters which form the basis of an application would not be put to the witnesses.
    Unfortunately my witnesses have now not - I don't have a witness here that I can call at the moment.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say they were here.

MR VISSER: Well some, there were witnesses here all day long, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: What's happened to them?

MR VISSER: Well they obviously have left, Mr Chairman, thinking that we won't come to them.

CHAIRPERSON: What right do they have to leave? If you have summonsed them here as witnesses. Did they speak to you or your attorney?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, if you could just allow me a very short adjournment, I will establish what the situation is and I will inform you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and I will want a full explanation from them.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Visser, are you also going to look into the possibility whether one or two of them can avail themselves.

MR VISSER: One or two of them can?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Avail themselves for this afternoon. Are you also going to look into whether or not we can have one or two of them this afternoon?

MR VISSER: That's what I want to look into Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MR VISSER: The moment they come - I've consulted with all of them, it's just a question - as I placed on record before, that they do have things to go on with Mr Chairman, and we kept three witnesses, in fact we've had five witnesses today.  I didn't anticipate that we'd finish with them as early as this.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll grant you a short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MAMOME: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Mr Mamome, what is your rank in the South African Police Service?

MR MAMOME: Detective Inspector, Sir.

MR VISSER: When did you join the South African Police?

MR MAMOME: 1974 on the 2nd of August.

MR VISSER: And when did you join the security branch in Bloemfotntein?

MR MAMOME: 19th October 1990.

MR VISSER: 19?

MR MAMOME: 1980 Sir, sorry, I beg your pardon.

MR VISSER: Now, you were informed that you were implicated in various incidents by the applicants in this case, is that correct?

MR MAMOME: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you went to see an attorney in Pretoria, Mr Wagner, is that correct?

MR MAMOME: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And during the course of the proceedings of these applications you filed two affidavits, that's bundle B page 22 and bundle B page 98.

MR MAMOME: That is correct, Sir.

MR VISSER: Are those two affidavits before you now?

MR MAMOME: I have P13, 14 and P36.

MR VISSER: Did you sign those documents?

MR MAMOME: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And do you confirm today that the contents of those documents is true and correct?

MR MAMOME: That is correct.

MR VISSER: What section did you work in the security branch in Bloemfontein?

MR MAMOME: Black section, Sir.

MR VISSER: Who was your commander?

MR MAMOME: The first one was Major Coetzee and the second one was Captain Shaw.

MR VISSER: Which other members were there in the black section of the security branch here in Bloemfontein?

MR MAMOME: It was myself, Mr Motsamai, Mr Sesedyane ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: That is spelt S-e-s-e-d-y-a-n-e.  Yes?

MR MAMOME: Mr Mtyhala, Mr Miningwa - sorry, no, no, I beg your pardon, Mr Morakile and Mr Erasmus, Mr Killian, Mr Wydaman, he was my partner and others.

MR VISSER: Alright. How many members, can you remember, were there attached to the security branch in 1985/1986 here in Bloemfontein?

MR MAMOME: Mr Chairman, I will not be able to answer that question. But I would say we were more that 50 to 60, I'm just guessing.

MR VISSER: Did you know Mr Ngo?

MR MAMOME: Yes, I knew this informer called Mr Ngo.