Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1999-10-21

MR WILLIAMS: Okay, Mr Siyali, I will leave it at that.  I just want to - second last question - I just want to ask you a personal question.  You state in your statement that African men were not trusted by the white policemen and if that was the case, why did you still stay on in the police for so long, bearing in mind that the struggle for freedom in South Africa only really started during those periods, in 1985, it gained momentum during that period.  Why did you stay on in the police force?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: If I did not do so, these two gentlemen wouldn't be here today, therefore it was of great help for me to be there.  If there is no black person there in that particular place, the boers would do anything to a black person, but most of the times they would be scared or rather nervous to do some of the things.

MR MATTHEWS: But they tortured people in your presence.  They committed atrocities whether you were there or not and you witnessed some of it, I'm sure.  So I pu ...(intervention)

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: I did mention that they would torture people and if the people were about to say something, they would call us and they would assault them in front of us and we would even interpret things that were stated during our absence.

MR MATTHEWS: If you weren't trusted by the police, why were you tasked with such a dangerous and important mission, namely to go and assist with the apprehension of terrorists?  Surely they must have trusted you?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: I did mention that Bongani Jonas was the very first person who was apprehended during my presence.  As Mr Yengeni was under me and I had to look at him, that was the very first operation to involve me as a black person.

MR MATTHEWS: Mr Siyali, do you have any children?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: I'm sure that one day if you must tell them about some of the things that you've witnessed in your stint at the Security Branch, that they wouldn't believe half of the things, not so?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: What do you mean if you say they are not going to believe this?

MR MATTHEWS: Well the atrocities that were committed in your presence and torturing and killings and those things, they wouldn't believe half of those things.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: I am going to repeat this.  People were tortured and we would be on the other side because our offices, as black officers, were at the back.  After the torturing we'd be called in.

MR MATTHEWS: I don't understand that because if you had to act as an interpreter there, how did the white policemen know what black suspects are saying if they had to torture these people without black policemen to interpret.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: You are asking me one question for many times.  A person who can speak English or Afrikaans but after the assault they would call us to interpret.  You've been asking me that question and I am giving you the same answer, I'm not going to change.  The black officers were not present during the torturing.  We'd be called after the assault and during our interpreting, we would be - they would be still assaulted, but when they start this whole thing, we would not be there.

MR MATTHEWS: So is my understanding correct that first they will take the people into the office, assault that person and then later - ask no questions, just assault the person, ask no questions and then later after the assault, call in you guys to interpret.  Is that what you're saying?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: It looks like you don't understand this answer.  People would be assaulted and asked questions at the same time and we would be called when the person is about to say something, then they would realise that the person was prepared to talk and they would call us at that time.

MR MATTHEWS: In all respect, it doesn't make sense, but I'm going to leave it at that.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: You are not going to understand it because you don't understand what I'm saying.

MR MATTHEWS: You say in paragraph 16 of your statement that
"I respectfully submit that I was at all times acting in my capacity as a constable policeman of the Security Branch."

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: Was it policy of the police or the Security Branch to torture people or to kill people?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: Where did you learn that, when you went to Hammanskraal to do your basic training, or where did you learn that policy?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: This was a procedure when you joined the Special Branch.  There would be tortures.  That's what I found when I joined the office.

MR MATTHEWS: Did your Commander tell you when you joined there , that that was expected of you?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Are you talking about the Special Branch?

MR MATTHEWS: Yes.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: I was told that if you join this office, you are supposed to be brave.

MR MATTHEWS: Yes, but I want to know who told you that policy was part of - that torture and killings were part of the policy of the police?  Did your seniors do that, or explain that to you when you joined the Security Branch?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: You are not told direct, but rather indirect and you would also see what was happening, but no-one would come to you and tell you exactly, but that is the situation that you find when you get there.

MR MATTHEWS: Did your seniors per chance tell you that indirectly?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: When you get there, you find them doing what I'm talking about.  As a black person you'd be given an instruction to do 1, 2 and 3.  You do not question anything.

MR MATTHEWS: Mr Chairman, can I just see if my client wants me to ask any other ...  Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Siyali, you stated earlier in your evidence that you saw that there were people that tortured Mr Bongani.  Everybody wanted to twist his leg or whatever.  Would you mind giving names to the Committee, besides Benzine, that you've already mentioned?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Benzine Liebenberg, Bellinghan, or the askaris, there were more people there who also wanted to hurt Bongani.

MR MATTHEWS: Did you say you saw Mr Liebenberg also torturing Mr Jonas?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.  When we get into that particular office or place.

MR MATTHEWS: Was he a Captain at that stage, if I remember correctly, Captain Liebenberg?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MATTHEWS: And he was in charge of the Security Branch, not so?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: He was in charge at Culemborg.

MR MATTHEWS: Did you personally witness Capt Liebenberg torturing Mr Jonas?

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is correct.  When I was getting inside there, I saw him doing that.

MR MATTHEWS: And then, maybe just very lastly, on behalf of Mr Jonas, he asked me to inform you that he appreciated the fact that you came to him way before this new dispensation to say that you were sorry about this particular incident, I think it was in 1991 when you came to him and you said that you felt guilty about this incident.

ISAIAH PATRICK SIYALI: Yes, that is so.

MR MATTHEWS: He wants you to know that he appreciates that.  Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLIAMS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Williams.  Ms Patel, have you got any questions?

MR MATTHEWS: Sorry, Mr Chairman.  Mr Tony Yengeni is here.  He's been mentioned, he's implicated, he's here, he's representing himself and he wants to know if he can ask, pose a few questions to the witness?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  He's not necessarily implicated in any wrongdoing on the face of it.  He's mentioned as being present, but seeing that he is here and he wishes to raise something, it might be that he wants to put a proper perspective on what has been said.  We will allow him to do so.  Mr Yengeni, will you be doing that yourself?