Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pietermaritzburg — UNKNOWN

MR LYSTER: The second one, were you also involved in helping people to escape, to get out of the country?

WITNESS:   I did get involved in helping those people to escape.  While we were at Loop Street Police Station they asked me questions and I denied knowledge of any of those things.  They locked me up until the next morning.  In the morning van der Merwe - this is the one who ill-treated me the most - came.  He came with Mr Nyoka, a black sergeant.  He was working for the Special Branch too.  They took me home, saying that they were going to search my place.  It was during the day.  They searched my home.  They couldn't find anything.  What I remember is that they took one letter from my home.  It was a letter about trade unions.  We went back.  They took me to Thornville Police Station.  The station commander at Thornville was Le Roux.  They also put me into another room.  They interrogated me.  They said, "You are denying, but we know that you know the truth."  Van der Merwe tell me I must undress.  He sent Nyoka somewhere.  I don't know, maybe he sent him to go and hide somewhere.  And he started hitting me, punching me on my stomach.  He said I must get on top of the table and squat.  I said, "I can't do that."  He said, "I will show you."  He continued to beat me.  I was now tired and I was now squatting, and he said, "No, stand up."  He was beating me while cross-questioning me.  He said I must take out my belt.  He said, "I have to take care of this belt because you might hang yourself with your belt."  They continued to interrogate me until the next morning.  I remember one gentleman who was know as Sergeant Gold.  He didn't harass me that much.  He was there.  On the third day - I couldn't sleep for those three days.  They told me, "You are not going to sleep."  I was still in the very same room.  Van der Merwe came in and he also interrogated me.  He said I must write down some statement, and he said, "You will speak the truth."   After some time one security policeman came.  He was a white man.  It was my first time to see him.  He said, "Oh, you don't want to talk.  I am going to beat you."  He said, "I will take you and throw you at the railway lines.  Next to the police station there is a railway line, and we will tell the people that you were hit by the train while you were trying to escape."  And he hit me, he banged my head from both sides, and I lost my mind, and he said to me, "I want you to go crazy."  They were hitting me from all sides.  Van der Merwe was also involved in the beatings.  They continued to interrogate me.  As I have already explained I didn't sleep.  The next morning - I don't remember after how many days, but they took me with  a car to the Central Prison in Pietermaritzburg.  They put me in a place called "emgodini."  This is a small cell, a very small cell.  It has cockroaches and it was very dirty.  That's where I heard the first time of noises and voices.  These people were talking like throughout the day, that I didn't understand what was happening.  When you were locked there in solitary confinement, as I were, you don't know what's going on outside, and even your thinking capacity decreases.  I stayed for such a long time - I think it was about two months or three months - in solitary confinement.  One day one of the warders took me out of the small prison and told me to just walk around the corridor.  My clothes were so dirty because they didn't even allow me to change them.

MR LYSTER: Can I ask you some few questions to make sure that I do follow you ... (inaudible) ... prison are you talking by Howick?

WITNESS:   No, I am not talking about Howick.

MR LYSTER: You said you heard voices.  Do you think by that time you have already lost your mind, or there were people talking?

WITNESS:   I should think maybe I was mentally disturbed, because I didn't know, I could just hear some voices.  Maybe it was a creation of some sort, and I don't know exactly whether there were people talking in the cells.

MR LYSTER: Can you go on and tell us about what happened at Howick?

WITNESS:   They took me to Howick Police Station.  That's where I was seriously tortured.  And there was these voices.  I could still even hear the voices, and I tried to sort of pinch myself to feel if I am still alive, but I couldn't feel the pain.  I was just going up and down in the cell, close my ears, but still there were noises.

MR LYSTER: Can you tell us more about the noises?

WITNESS:   These were voices which - people talking something that you could not understand.  These were just noises which were confusing.  Let me try to explain these noises.  After I was released I heard about white noises which was used by British Intelligence for interrogation.  I read an article, and I tried to compare with what happened to me.  It looks like it was similar.  I am not saying this is the noises, but the noises were so similar.  Because I remember one day I forget myself, I didn't know who I were.  I lost my mind.  I didn't know where I were.  I was asking myself, "Where am I?"  And this noise was just coming on - on and on.

MR LYSTER: How long did you stay in the Howick cells?

WITNESS:   I stayed there for a long time.  I was about - I spent about six months or seven months at Howick.

MR LYSTER: After leaving Howick what happened?

WITNESS:   They took me to Bishopston.  It's a police station somewhere next to the farms.  I didn't stay for a long time at that police station.  I came back, and one day, it was at night  - this

MR LYSTER: - this happened at Howick before I went to Bishopston.  Van der Merwe took me and he was with another policeman.  They took me to Thornville Police Station.  It was at night.  They were playing a movie.  There were so many people watching the movie, but I couldn't see who were the audience because it was dark.  Van der Merwe said to me, "Have some beers."  And I sat also drinking the beer.  I didn't know what kind of beer it was, but I did.  I didn't  know the name of the movie, but we watched the movie.  I didn't enjoy the movie because my head was swollen.

MR LYSTER: What was the film all about?

WITNESS:   If I remember well it was something to sort of like talk about your mind, something that shows inferiority, like you could see some baboons kissing.  It doesn't even had any message.  There was something - you couldn't make anything out of it.  From Howick they took me to Thornville.  I was at Thornville by this time.  They were still interrogating me.  Dreyer also came to Thornville Police Station and he said, "You still don't want to talk. That's okay," and they continued to keep me in solitary confinement and also ask me questions.  One day van der Merwe came.  He opened the door and looked at me and said, "I know that you don't want to change."  He just say that and leave.  And he did that so many times.  He said I am teaching people wrong things.  I didn't answer him, I just kept quiet.  As they were interrogating me now and then they brought me a statement and said, "Now you have to sign this statement by force.  You don't have anyone with you here.  I am your lawyer today.  You have to sign it."  This was painful, because if you were detained for political activities you didn't even have the power to get a lawyer by your side.   /Security

MR LYSTER: Security Police has powers to prevent you from seeing a lawyer.  It was so terrific that I was so afraid, and I ended up signing the statement.

MR LYSTER: What was the statement about?

WITNESS:   The statement was about my involvement.  They were saying I should sign to say that I did aid the people to escape the country, and that I was also working for a banned organisation.

MR LYSTER: And what happened from that time?