Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-26

MR SIBANYONI: Because on page 22 of your statement you are saying
"I had no specific target as all of them were actually my target as they were all ANC members, including those supposedly who were not in town, as they would have provoked me to if they were in town."

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Since the group who harassed me in town was the ANC group, when I decided to go back and attack this group I was going to shoot anyone, not that I wanted to shoot an individual ANC member, but anyone among the group.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

MR DE KLERK: No questions from my side, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DE KLERK

MS MTANGA: No questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR DE KLERK: That's the applicant's evidence, Mr Chairman.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MS MTANGA: At this point, Chairperson, I'd like to call Mr Sebenza.

CHAIRPERSON: How long do you think his evidence will be?

MS MTANGA: Not more than 20 minutes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps it would be better to take the adjournment at this stage, so that we can continue with his evidence uninterruptedly.  I don't know what provision is made for refreshments for persons appearing here, but it seems to me, going by what normally happens here, it would be sufficient if we adjourn till half past one.  Will that suit you?

MS MTANGA: That suits me, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We propose to take the adjournment now, so as not to interrupt the next witness in his evidence, but we will be adjourning till one thirty.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MS MTANGA: ... Patrick Sebenza as a witness, on behalf of the victims.

MR DE KLERK: Mr Chairman, can I quickly call Mr Mzobe?  I don't know where the orderly is.

MR LAX: Sadda, could you just get Mr Mzobe here?  I'm not sure where he is.
	Would you please stand, Mr Sebenza

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson.
	Will you please give your name, and explain to this Committee where you come from, for the record.

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: I am Mbulelo Patrick Sebenza from Port Shepstone.

MS MTANGA: Mr Sebenza, we would like you to give evidence regarding what took place on the day Mr Bazely and Ndovela were killed.  You have heard Mr Mzobe's evidence to the effect that there was friction between the ANC and the IFP.  I would like you to start by giving us your view as to this background.

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: Alright.  In the first instance I would say that on this day when Bazely and Ndovela were killed, in the morning when we left home, because I was staying with Brian Bazely, on that morning we passed Mzobe's home on our way to town and when we arrived in town we hung around and we met the applicant, Mr Mzobe.
	There is one place near the butchery where Mr Mzobe found us.  We were braaing meat and we chatted.  We knew him from before because we went to school together.  I did not have any quarrel with him, there was no conflict between us, and that's the impression I had about him.  Because I had last seen him a long time ago he asked me how I had been and I told him that I was okay and we parted there.  
	From there, it was about five to one, we could not go into the shops and the we just went to board a taxi.  At the taxi rank we met Mr Ndovela.  He was with a certain person whose surname is Zulu.  There were four of us.  We boarded the taxi and we boarded the taxi to Kwakanjaza and on arrival we bought some meat and went into some room.  
	On arrival we asked somebody to cook that meat for us.  We went outside to sit under a tree because it was hot on that day.

MS MTANGA: Can you please explain, when you say "we", who were you with?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: It was Brian Bazely, Mr Ndovela, Mtago Zulu and myself.
	We sat under a tree in the shade.  As we were still sitting there we bought two beers.  While we were sitting the applicant arrived.  Before he arrived some people came to join us.  There was somebody called Shatini Zulu who came, but I did not know the others ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Can I just stop you, I didn't catch the name of the second Mr Zulu.

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: I know him by the nickname Shatini, I don't know his real name.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: Whilst we were still waiting for the food to cook the applicant arrived.  He had a young boy by the arm and when he arrived he just said: "Hey you sons of bitches, do you know this boy?"  When he approached we saw him from a distance.  We were not sitting directly under the tree, but in the shade of the tree and you could see a person approaching from the road because there was just one road.
	Because we had no grudge against him we were not surprised to see him.  Personally I was not shocked or surprised to see him because I had seen him before in town and we had chatted and we had discussed many things, even referring to our days when we used to play soccer.
	When he came with this boy and asked us if we knew this boy, and I didn't know the boy.  The applicant had a gun.  I was not really shocked or worried that he might do something.  Ndovela then looked at him and when he did so the applicant asked him what he was looking at and then he started firing.

MS MTANGA: Did anyone in the group that you were sitting with swear or make any threats against Mr Mzobe?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: No, no-one did.

MS MTANGA: Did you know of any friction between yourselves as ANC people and Mr Mzobe, as an IFP person?  Was there such friction between yourselves?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: I will put it this way, as far as I am aware, because I did not reside in the area most of the time, there was friction but there was no open war, you could still move around the area, you were free to move around and visit each other's areas.  I was not aware of, I did not have a grudge.  There was no conflict between myself and Brian.  I did know what the situation was with regards to the other people.
	What I would like to say is, at that time there was no serious war between the IFP and the ANC, but it was a known fact that they were two organisations existing in that area.

MR LAX: Can I just ask a question, specifically of the interpreter, did the witness say
"there was no conflict between myself and Brian"
or:
"between myself and the applicant"
Because you interpreted the word Brian.

MS MTANGA: Can I ask him that?

MR LAX: No, I want the interpreter to answer.  You were interpreting, did you perhaps make a mistake?

INTERPRETER: I may have, but I thought I heard "Brian".  Maybe I should clarify it with the witness.

MR LAX: Please, if you would.

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: ...(no English interpretation) no conflict between the applicant ...(no English interpretation) Brian.

MR SIBANYONI: You want to say there was no conflict between Brian and the applicant?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: Nor any conflict between you and the applicant?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: What I am saying is there was no conflict between myself and the applicant, nor between Brian and the applicant, because the two of us, Brian and myself, did not have any conflict with the applicant.

MR SIBANYONI: What we want to clarify is, it sounded as if you are saying you and Brian were not fighting, there was no conflict between you and Brian, but you are saying between the two of you on the one side and the applicant on the other side, is that correct?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: Yes, that was misunderstood.  What I'm to clarify is that the applicant on one side as well as Brian and myself on the other did not have any conflict.

MS MTANGA: Mr Sebenza, are you able to tell this court whether your cousin, Brian Bazely, belonged to any political organisation or not?

MBULELO PATRICK SEBENZA: As far as I am aware, I'm sure he was not affiliated to any political organisation.

MS MTANGA: What about yourself?