Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-18

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Of course, no such order is a legitimate order, Mr Chairman, but the conditions at the time were such that in fact Mr Gold had very little choice and I would not have approached him if I did not at that time feel that he would go along with it.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Now it obviously wouldn't be common practice for you to have described explicitly what this operation was going to be over the telephone, because that wouldn't have been a secure and confidential means of communication for an operation such as this?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: That's correct.

MR WILLS: So it is likely that the exact details of this operation wouldn't have been communicated over the telephone?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Not the exact details, no Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Yes.  Now I've consulted with my client and whilst his memory is that the order was to go to Mbazwana, he's not going to take issue whether that was Mbazwana or Pongola, the fact of the matter is that you met at some police station and you continued with the operation.  My client is of the view that when he first saw the person who was pointed out to him as being a double agent, that this person appeared to be sedated.  You've commented that as far as you're concerned, you didn't give him any drugs.  How did he appear to you the morning at the police station, at you say the Pongola police station?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: I cannot remember if he left the car, Mr Chairman.  I can remember that he was sleeping in the car at one time during the journey and as was said, the next thing that I can, the recollection of the deceased was at this house where he was lying sleeping under the tree.  My view was, as I said earlier that thinking back, that he was probably as tired as I was.

MR BOOYENS: Now at the actual scene where the deceased was killed, there appears to be no dispute between your client's version and my client's version that he wasn't involved in the actual murder.

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: He was not involved, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Yes.  In fact my client informs me that there was a bit of a joke about him not being involved, that he was scrimmaging around in the back of his car because he was, it was seen that he avoided that actual murder, can you recall anything to that effect?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: I cannot recall that we ever discussed this, Mr Chairman.  Incidents like these were very uncomfortable occasions and I never, as far as I can remember, discussed details about any of these incidents that I had been involved in afterwards.  I can remember that I deliberately tried to avoid any discussions around this.

MR WILLS: I think your counsel has dealt with the issue of the number of explosives.  My client is adamant that there was in fact only one explosive, but you don't necessarily dispute that, that one explosion to destroy the body?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: I have already indicated that I have doubts Mr Chairman and that I will concede that.

MR WILLS: Now, is it so that and I'm referring to page 19 of the bundle, that after this operation, in paragraph 44, after this operation my client, in fact he was a Warrant Officer at the time, Warrant/Officer Gold, was waiting with Col Visser for you to report that all was clear and at that point he gave you the unused exploder and the cables, can you recall anything to that effect?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: I cannot, Mr Chairman, I wouldn't dispute that.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, if you could just bear with me.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.  Page 90 paragraph 44?

MR WILLS: Paragraph 44.  Sorry, Mr Chairman, I must withdraw that, that was that shot, I've just had instructions, actually given allegedly to Mr Schoon, so I must withdraw that.
	But the point that I'm wanting to make is that this was in fact the only operation, as far as you know, that Mr Gold was ever involved in of this nature?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Walt?

MEV VAN DER WALT: Mr van Zyl, as far as the question is concerned that was asked to you, the person Scorpion, that he might have been sedated, I would like to put it to you that at the time that he was transported from Klerkskraal to where he was eventually killed, he was treated as if he was still an agent of the police.  He had no handcuffs etc so there was no reason to give him sedation.  That is what Col Visser will say.

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, that is correct.  The person was calm and at ease and he and Col Visser spoke about matters that I didn't know about and people that I didn't know about.  I can't remember their conversations but he was not in handcuffs and he seemed quite relaxed, as far as I'm concerned.

MEV VAN DER WALT: And you said in your evidence in chief also, but you are now under cross-examination, you didn't say it again, but is it correct that when you stopped at Pongola that you gave him coffee, where he also had coffee with you?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes.

MEV VAN DER WALT: Is that correct?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, that's how I remember it.  The flask that Col Visser brought along, he shared coffee with us.

MEV VAN DER WALT: And he seemed normal?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, he did.

MEV VAN DER WALT: Thank you.  No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chair.  Mr van Zyl between you and Mr Schoon, your co-applicant, did you trust each other?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, we did.

UNKNOWN: Mr Des Carr, the applicant, did you know him well?

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: Yes, I knew him not as long as Mr Schoon, but I know that he was considered to be a very steady, solid kind of a person and that's why I accepted when Mr Schoon introduced him to me, to help us.

UNKNOWN: Mr van Zyl, as you know today, Mr Schoon - Mr Carr is in hospital at the moment.  He has undergone an operation and according to his application he says that you informed him that the person who was to be executed there, was a double agent and a traitor.

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: I can't remember, but it's probably true, yes, because I knew him and Col Visser didn't know him as well, so it was probably me who told him, who gave him the information.

UNKNOWN: Then according to his application, it appears that he says he was 10 to 15 metres away from the person, on page 55 of his application.  You say you were closer?
I don't want to make a difference, that's just a dispute, that's just what he says.  I'll take that point up with him, I don't think anything will turn around it.

JOHAN MARTIN VAN ZYL: When I read it in his statement, I wondered whether it didn't mean 1.0 or 1.5 but that also shows how one's image of something can change over 15 or 20 years.  My recollection remains that he kneeled near to the person and that he was very much closer.

UNKNOWN: Thank you, Mr Chair, no more questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Samuel would you be in a position to proceed?   Are your clients present at the moment?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, client is not present at the moment.  I would like to reserve my cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I would also like to hear the version of the victim first.