Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-26

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

MR SAMUEL: Sir, you have seen various bodies where there were decomposition, right?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR SAMUEL: That came for post-mortems?  And there are various degrees of decomposition, am I right?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR SAMUEL: Where you might just get a body with, that has just reached a state of decomposition, where the lips are not gone and the eyes are not gone off the body, am I right?  Would you call that an advance stage of decomposition?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: No.

MR SAMUEL: All right.  Would I be correct in saying that an advance stage of decomposition would be reached when there are no eyes on the body, the ears would have been eaten by maggots and things?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: Yes.

MR SAMUEL: In this case, where a doctor finds the body in the mortuary that, the purpose, would I be correct in saying the purpose of a post-mortem is to see whether they could get anything out of the stomach and the liver and thing, am I right, generally that is the purpose of a post-mortem?

CHAIRPERSON: I wouldn't go with that.  You don't go to post-mortems to find out what is in the stomach, the usual, the prime aim is to determine a cause of death.

MR SAMUEL: Oh, thank you Judge.  Would I be correct in saying that if the body had reached such a stage of decomposition, that no purpose would be served in actually removing the clothes, you would not have removed the clothes, am I right?
	Where the cause of death cannot be  ascertained because of the state of decomposition of the body?

MOHAMMED SADIK ISMAIL: That was totally left to the discretion of the doctor.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ismail, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down now, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, I see it is almost tea time, I would ask for an indulgence that we take the tea.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MS THABETHE: Quarter past eleven?
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Thabethe, I see before us we have a volume of photographs.  Is this the complete portfolio?

MS THABETHE: Yes, these are the colour copies.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Wills, you have a copy and Mr Visser, you have a copy?

MR VISSER: Yes, thank you Chairperson.  I think Mr Lax suggested that this should be Exhibit T?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we've got a couple of photos, but we can leave them where they are.  There is R1 and R2.

MR VISSER: You are still short in R3 and R4.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so we will make this Exhibit T because Exhibit S is the measurements of the dressmaker.  This photo portfolio will be Exhibit T.
PHOTO PORTFOLIO HANDED IN AS EXHIBIT T

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.

MR LAX: Sorry, can I, there are at the back of this, there are four photographs of the deceased in this matter.  Those are part of R, aren't they?  These photographs here, should be part of R.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  That is the one of the mother and child and we know that R1 is the one sitting on the bed, the one sitting on the fence pole is R2 and then the one standing next to a motor vehicle, I think those were R1 to R4.
	Should we not just make this Exhibit R and let it take over, and then we can take out R1, R2, R3 and R4.  We will make these exhibits R and substitute it for that other four photographs, because they are all included in here.

MR VISSER: All the photos are R?

CHAIRPERSON: I think all the photos are R now.

MR LAX: Let's just double check that.

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair ...

MR LAX: We've got R1 and R2.

CHAIRPERSON: But we didn't get R3 and R4.  Mr Visser showed them and we said that they would be ...

MR VISSER: What we have done is, Ms Thabethe asked us to give it to her and we gave it to her, but we haven't received the photograph that Prof Vanezis has worked on.  That was supposed to be the last one of those R photographs.  I am not sure what has happened to that Chairperson.

MS THABETHE: I am also not sure.

MR VISSER: We don't seem to be able to get a full set of photographs.

MS THABETHE: I am also not sure Mr Chair, but what I will do after Dr Naidoo, because I don't know whether you would be using them for Dr Naidoo as well, I would give, I don't know what happened to them at this present moment, I will find out.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, if you can find out.

MS THABETHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: It is just that one photograph.

MS THABETHE: It is all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: The front ...

MR VISSER: Yes, the frontal photograph.

CHAIRPERSON: The front photo of the two that we saw in the video?

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Because the angled one was the one sitting on the bed.

MR VISSER: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Dr Naidoo, what are your full names please?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Thank you.  My name is Segaran Ramalu Naidoo.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair.  Dr Naidoo, can you please state your qualifications for the record?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: I have a Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery degree, which is a general medical qualification.  I have a post-graduate diploma in forensic medicine and I have the Master of Medicine in forensic pathology which is the specialist qualification.

MS THABETHE: And at present, what are you working as?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: I am still a Forensic Pathologist, but I am essentially in a limited private practice of my own, just starting, but I do considerable amount of part time work for the State.

MS THABETHE: How long have you worked as a Forensic Pathologist?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Since approximately 1990, that is approximately 10 years as a qualified specialist, but in training for seven years earlier.

MS THABETHE: Now we come to the case of Ntombi Kubheka.  Can you tell the Committee how you were introduced to this case?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: I was asked by the Truth Commission for whom I had done several post-mortem examinations from exhumations earlier to also examine, do the exhumation and examine this body.

MS THABETHE: Okay.  We will come back to all the other exhumations and the other reports that you did later on.  We have a report  that was written by you on page 24 of Bundle 2, up to page 29.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Was this report compiled by you?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: This is my report, yes, 24 to 30 and then attached are several annexures and transcriber's certificate and a diagram.

MS THABETHE: Right.  Now you were still telling us how you were introduced to this case of Ntombi Kubheka.

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: Yes.  I was, well being the Deputy Head of the Department Forensic Medicine in regular contact with the Police and Investigating Officers.  I cannot recall which individual from the Truth Commission did make the initial call, it may have been Ms Miller and I recall that for this particular case, I wasn't able to go myself to do the exhumation, and so I asked Dr Aiyer on our staff, to please do the exhumation for us, for the Department and bring the body to the unit.

MS THABETHE: Right.  Is it correct that you received the body on the 9th of May 1997?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: And the sergeant who gave you this body, or who handed the body over to you, was Sgt M. Swart?

SEGARAN RAMALU NAIDOO: That is correct.

MS THABETHE: What did you then do with the body in an endeavour to do the post-mortem?