Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-03-30

UNKNOWN: And you were shot once in your body is that correct?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: Yes that is true.

UNKNOWN: And can you just tell us where about the injury occurred on your body?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I was shot at the left of my chest just above my nipple something like that.

UNKNOWN: Do you know whether the bullet passed through your body or not?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: The bullet did not go through it stayed in my body, even today.

UNKNOWN: And I'm interested just to find out how long were you either in hospital or incapacitated as a result of this gunshot wound?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I was taken to the theatre when I regained my consciousness.  I think I regained my consciousness after three days when I realised that I was myself now. I stayed a week in the theatre because I stayed two weeks at hospital - about three weeks at the hospital.  I was then released and then I had to go around finding doctors because I'm still not feeling well with this thing in my body.  Up till today I did not get satisfaction with how I got treated by the doctors.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman I have no further questions.
ADV. GCABASHE: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we should allow you to re-examine first if you have any?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR NODADA

MR NODADA: Yes chairperson just one question.
 	Mr Pama you've been asked of the taking out or the drawing out of your firearm.  Can you say exactly at what stage you decided to draw out your firearm, then where the firearm was when the shot landed on your chest?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: Can you please repeat the question?

MR NODADA: I'm saying you have been questioned about the drawing out of the firearm and also why you did that, but what I want to establish from you now is the position of this firearm at the time when the shot landed on you and the firearm fell was it?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I was still drawing my gun not as yet got it to a position where I could say I could use it when it fell.

MR NODADA: Would you say at the time a shot was aimed at you, the firearm was already showing, in other words the firearm was already visible to other people?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I pulled my gun, I would not know whether he saw the gun because I was still pulling the gun out.  He shot the one before me and then shot me, that's when he shot the other one I then tried to pull out my gun and then he shot me.  I do not know whether he saw the gun when I was pulling it out.

MR NODADA: Now the first shot that landed on the person who was next to you, how long did it take before the next shot came and landed on you?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: It was many minutes between the time the first one was shot and then me.  It was like shooting this one and then shooting that one.

MR NODADA: In other words was it a question of seconds in between?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: It should be seconds.

MR NODADA: Where was it actually kept, this firearm on your body?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: It was on my waist.

MR NODADA: On your waist was it held by a holster or a belt or the waist of your pants, what was holding it to your body?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: It was held by my holster to the back of my waist.  Someone who would be coming in front would not know that I had a gun at the back of my waist and it's when somebody coming from behind he would see that there is something on my waist.

MR NODADA: That is all Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NODADA

UNKNOWN: Chairman, sorry, may I just clarify on aspect if I may with permission of the Committee?
	Mr Pama were you shot from the front in other words the gunman who shot at you was he facing you?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: He shot me from the front, he came from the front.

UNKNOWN: And Mr Makumba was he also shot in other words from the front facing the gunman?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: Yes he was shot from the front, yes.

UNKNOWN: And lastly are you able to tell us how close to you and Mr Makumba the gunman was when he fired?  Just indicate from where you are standing or sitting to a position that you can identify.

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I think he should be about where Mr Sandi or Mr Lax is sitting or about where - next to the Chairman, after the Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Three to four paces?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, thank you, I have not further questions.
ADV. GCABASHE: Thank you Chair.
	You regained consciousness for a few minutes after you had been shot, that's what you've said?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That is so.
ADV. GCABASHE: And you saw a man carrying one bag or did you see two bags, just to clarify that?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I only saw one brown bag.
ADV. GCABASHE: Now you've also said that you do not know of any other shooting apart from the shooting of yourself and Mr Mankumba?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: That is so yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Did you get a report later or were you told later of the shooting of one of the assailants somewhere near the outside door, that would be the applicant on his version.  Do you know anything about that other shooting?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: No I heard nothing of the sort.
ADV. GCABASHE: Thank you, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: A docket would have been prepared about this incident wouldn't it?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: After a month I asked as to who was investigating the case of UNITRA and I was told it was Captain [inaudible].  I never got to know what happened about the case up until today.

CHAIRPERSON: But in the ordinary course of events in a shooting incident of this nature, a docket would be prepared in which details would be given of shots fired by members of the police force wouldn't it?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: I'd like the question to be repeated please.

CHAIRPERSON: Normally, where there is a shooting incident involving members of the police force the docket would contain details of shots fired by the members of the police force, how they, why they shot and why they came to shoot?  If they did any shooting.

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: Yes that is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you've told us that when you regained consciousness you discovered your gun had gone, did you ever get it back?

ELLIOT MICHAEL PAMA: No from then I never got my gun back.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR NODADA: Mr Chairman as I indicated yesterday I was going to call two witnesses but between that time and now the other witness was rather hesitant about giving evidence.  I don't know whether he has changed his mind and has finally decided.

CHAIRPERSON: It would be a very convenient stage  to take the adjournment and you can decide then.  We will take a short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS.
ON RESUMPTION

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman before Mr Nodada calls his next witness I understood the Committee wanted to know the type or description of firearms that Pama had and it's common cause that the firearm that he had in his possession and then lost during the incident was a 9 mm. Parabellum Z88 which was standard police issue at the time.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Does everybody agree with that?

MR NODADA: Mr Chairman, I'm now calling the evidence of the second witness.

UNKNOWN: Please can we have your full names just for the record?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR NODADA

MR NODADA: You are currently a member of the South African Police Services stationed in Umtata?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Yes.

MR NODADA: You were previously a member, that is before 1994, you were a member of the Transkeian Police and you were stationed in Umtata?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: Yes it is true

MR NODADA: What rank do you hold in the police force?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: A sergeant.

MR NODADA: What was your rank in 1993?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: I was a constable.

MR NODADA: I want you to cast your memories to the events of the 18th February 1993 when you were deployed at the University of Transkei to perform some guard duties.  What time did you arrive at the university?

WILBERFORCE SANDLA: We got there about past five.