Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-12-08

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: They were not chatting as two people, they were talking loud and I was sitting inside the Mazda 626 and from there to the place where they were, if they were not shouting, I couldn't have heard them because the distance between where I was and where they were, it's a little bit apart.  That's what I was explaining.

MR LAX: Were you sitting inside the vehicle?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Outside.

MR LAX: Well you just said you were sitting inside, that's why I'm asking you.

INTERPRETER: It is because I heard him saying "I was sitting in the 626", so I thought inside.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the specific words he used was not "inside the vehicle", he was in the vehicle.

INTERPRETER: Yes, yes, he was outside ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(Zulu) which would be around the vehicle.  He did not specifically specify whether outside or inside.

INTERPRETER: Yes, he didn't.

MR LAX: Thank you, because otherwise it's very confusing for me.
	They didn't call you, isn't that correct?  They didn't address you by name.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: When people are talking it's different from when someone is shouting that you should come.  Even if they were talking but they were talking loud, therefore I could hear them from that distance.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, they didn't call you, you only heard them talking about you.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes.

MR LAX: Chair, I'll leave it at that, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sambo, I see you are not a man of few words.  Am I correct in making that assessment of you?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: No, you are not mistaken.  It is because I want to quite understand the question before I answer it
as I know it.

CHAIRPERSON: Now during the examination by the Panel, you stated that you received general instructions from the MK command, to kill the boers, and I want to assume that by that you also included the police when you used the word "boers", and the reason why you were given such instructions, you proceeded to say it was in order to neutralise the situation.  Did I hear you properly there?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: When I referred to boers, I wasn't referring to civilians, I was referring specifically to the people who were serving the past government, the people who were harassing us, the people who were fighting with us.

CHAIRPERSON: So were you referring to policemen, white policemen, when you used the word "boers"?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if you had general instructions from the MK command to kill policemen, and according to you evidence, white policemen, in order to neutralise the situation, why did you not kill the many other policemen who repeatedly visited your home, as you have alluded in your evidence on a number of occasions?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: I had explained that before O'Farrell and Mr van der Spuy came to my home, we had sat and discussed about this.  We discussed about how we can neutralise the SB, the Security Branch and the soldiers, so that they know that we are also soldiers like them.

CHAIRPERSON: You know what, Mr Sambo, you don't listen to a question being put to you, you go on a complete tangent and that doesn't vote well to your evidence.  At the end of the day we have to sit, analyse, evaluate your evidence.  Before putting this question to you I made an assessment and I wanted you to agree with me, because I thought that would actually warn you about how you respond to questions.  Your response now is not a response to the question which I have put to you.  My question is not intended to elicit the meeting which took place and the discussion that took place in that meeting about the general instruction.  I have deliberately told you that your evidence already says there was a general instruction from the MK command, that you must kill policemen.  Now I am putting to you what you have already put to this Committee, that you got a general instruction as members of MK, from the upper structures of the MK command, that you were to kill policemen, white policemen, in order to neutralise the situation.  My question is, if you had received such a general instruction to kill white policemen in order to neutralise the situation, why did you not kill the other policemen who continuously harassed you prior to Mr O'Farrell and Mr van der Spuy's arrival at your home?  Do you understand my question, because if you do not understand I don't want you to respond, I would want you to request me to repeat myself or simplify myself rather than having to answer to something which you have not comprehended appropriately.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Would you please repeat that question?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you recall that you have already stated, when you were being questioned by my colleagues you stated that you received a general instruction from MK command, to kill what you termed then "boers", in order to neutralise the situation.  Do you recall giving that evidence?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you still stand by that evidence?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: And will I be correct that you received these instructions long before 1992, when you shot Mr O'Farrell and Mr van der Spuy?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: I don't quite understand whether I follow your question.  Do you mean if ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you knew about the general instruction - I mean we've heard previous evidence from other applications about this policy of targeting policemen.  You knew about this general instruction to kill policemen, long before you actually shot Mr O'Farrell and Mr van der Spuy.  This is not a question to trick you.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, I know.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you having a difficulty in following the question because of translation, or are you having a difficulty generally in just understanding these proceedings?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: I think it's the interpretation.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if you have a problem with the interpretation, why do you not bring it to our attention because we will not know unless you do so.  If you have a problem with how a question is being translated to you and you do not understand the translation, do advise me, I'm here to assist you so that you do not answer something that has not been put to you.  I'm going to put what I was putting to you in English, I'll put it in Zulu, which is very close to Swati.

CHAIRPERSON: You gave evidence already that you had general instructions as members of MK, that you're supposed to kill police.  Your reason was because you wanted to neutralise the situation. (Not he, but the MK command).   The reason was because the MK command said you needed to neutralise the situation.  Do you agree with this evidence?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Therefore, all the time you knew that police were enemies, since you were members of the MK.

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: My next question.  If you knew this, that there was this general instruction to kill police, because this general instruction came from the superiors of the MK or the commanders, why then you didn't kill a single policeman from the ones who used to come to your house and harass you?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: It was not the place where we were supposed to kill them, there at home.  We were supposed to choose a certain place where we were going to kill them.  And these two came before we conducted that, that's why it happened in my place, my house.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't quite understand, because when you say you were supposed to do this in a certain place, was there a certain place where you were not supposed to kill a police or ...?

VOICE MORRIS SAMBO: Yes, I'm talking about quite a number of police.  We were supposed to plan an ambush.  For an ambush to be done, you plan it prior to commencing that, you choose a place where you can lay an ambush for them.

CHAIRPERSON: Now then, when you killed Mr van der Spuy, your evidence is that you killed him intentionally.