Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-05

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: The fact that it happened at the day when Chris Hani, at the time of Chris Hani, that really was a sort of a hint to the government that that is the reason why Mr Glen and Alistair died at the time.

ADV DE JAGER: It happened three days after his killing?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: I agree with you, but at that time there was still that anger all around the country, that was shown in the memorial services, that was shown in the funeral.

ADV DE JAGER: All right, only one other thing.  You went there because you heard or got information that there were people at Port St Johns who were counter-revolutionaries, is that correct?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you want to kill the counter-revolutionaries?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No, as a Self Defence Unit, I repeat it, we had no reason to initiate any attack.  Ours was to take that concrete data which we assigned to the comrades who were stationed at Port St Johns, that they should go and investigate so that they can come with a concrete evidence.
	That evidence as the sub-regional Self Defence Unit, we were going to convey it to our Commanders, comrades were there, or maybe to the upper structure of the ANC.  Now right to the top brass of the ANC and also to the Military Head Quarters of MK if it was necessary.

ADV DE JAGER: So, that wasn't the reason for going to Port St Johns, because you had this information that there were counter-revolutionaries there?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: The reason that we took Port St Johns as the first target, is that we had heard already that information.  That is why now we decided to go to Port St Johns and hit there first.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.  But then if I understand you correctly, because you have heard of the counter-revolutionaries there at Port St Johns, that is the reason why you went there?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And chose them as a first target?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Maxhayi, just one thing here.  In the course of your conversation with Mr Prince Madikizela, did he have anything to say about this operation, did he make any comment about it?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No.  No, he didn't, he wanted me to relay, to tell him the whole thing.  After that he had nothing to say to me and then we parted.

ADV SANDI: He did not express any attitude as to whether you had done a good thing or a bad thing?  What was his attitude?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No, he didn't show to me any attitude.  He was normal as any other day.  He was normal as any other day, he came to me, he wanted me to give him the information.  I gave him the information and then we parted.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR SMUTS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Maxhayi, do I understand correctly that your office which you held in the ANC was one to which you were elected?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Can you repeat the question please?

MR SMUTS: The office that you held within the ANC, the position that you held within the ANC, was one to which you had been elected?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.

MR SMUTS: But your position in the Self Defence Unit, was one that you acquired on a voluntary basis?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: That is correct.

MR SMUTS: Within the Self Defence Unit, were there any policy guidelines as to a decision making process and the extent to which the operations of a Self Defence Unit, had to comply with the policies of the African National Congress?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.  Self Defence Units were based on the policies of MK, which is the wing of ANC, which is the  military wing of the ANC.  So, those policies were guiding us.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly, do you include an operation such as that that you had described, as falling within the official policy of the African National Congress?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: An operation?

CHAIRPERSON: The operation?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: The operation?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes of killing these white people to send a message to the then government in that ambush, would that fall within the ambit of that policy of the African National Congress at that time, officially?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: We didn't get an authority from the ANC that we should go there.  As I have said that we were autonomous at the Self Defence Unit.

MR SMUTS: I understand your contention that you were autonomous, but is it your evidence that that autonomy extended so far that you were entitled to take decisions to involve yourselves in operations which fell outside the policy of the ANC?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: According to us as the rank and file of the ANC, there was an absolute need for a retaliation at that time of comrade Chris Hani, because it came as a shock to us.  That one was tantamount to a declaration of war to us as the rank and file, as Self Defence Unit.
	And also as I put it earlier on that we wanted to carry on this operation within that atmosphere, when the people of South Africa were still showing that anger.  There was no need for formal meetings with other people.

MR SMUTS: Can I put the question to you again, is it your evidence that the autonomy in decision making which was extended to the Self Defence Units, entitled you to decide upon operations which fell outside the policy of the ANC?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: As the people who were autonomous, we had to take the decision which would suit the condition of the time.

MR SMUTS: And did that entitle you to act in direct conflict with instructions or requests from the leadership of the African National Congress?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: I cannot say it was in conflict, because we didn't go to the ANC for them to give us authority or whatsoever.
	Now, I cannot say it was in conflict with them.  I don't know whether they were going to give us that right if the time was there to go to them and explain to them, because I think to the ANC, it was not nice to lose comrade Chris Hani.  So I am not sure at that time, the ANC or my Branch, what they would say if we went there to ask for this retaliation.

MR SMUTS: The question I was posing to you, I was posing in general.  I will get to the specifics.  But what I am trying to establish from you is, when you say that the Self Defence Units had autonomous decision making power, did that autonomy extend so far that they could make decisions to become involved in operations which were in conflict with the express policy, requests and instructions of the ANC leadership?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: No.  We would avoid anything which would be in conflict with the policies of the ANC.  We would avoid it.

MR SMUTS: It is also clear that you did not seek before embarking on this operation, any guidance or instruction from ANC leadership, is that correct?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: That is correct.

MR SMUTS: Why was that?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: We had an autonomous status as the SDU's, and also the way it happened, as I said earlier on that it came to us as a shock that at the time comrade Chris Hani was talking about peace, it is the time when the people now are planning for his death.
	Now, we had no time to go to the ANC and ask for authority to go and retaliate to the enemies of the revolution.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's put it this way.  You testify and you say that the Self Defence Unit was structured for defence purposes, not to attack?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, I agree with that.

CHAIRPERSON: What you described and how these unfortunate people met their death, was not the result of a defensive operation, but really an attack, am ambush, is that not so?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: So, what you described to us in that attack, could not very well fall within the policy of the African National Congress at that time, not so?

MLULAMISI MAXHAYI: Yes.

MR SMUTS: Isn't that why Mr Maxhayi, isn't that why you didn't seek instruction or advice from the African National Congress, because you knew that you would never get approval for such an operation?