Special Hearings — Caprivi Hearings — 1997-08-08

MR MACADAM: Mr Chairperson, as I understood the arrangement yesterday, that I placed on record a number of arrangements and discussions with counsel aimed at speeding up the process that the witnesses would then, once they had finally completed the evidence, be cross-examined.  This would clearly have the advantage of determining, for example, with the witness, Mbambo, who still has to testify, given questions that may be put relating to Mr Luthuli and Mr Mkhize, would govern how quickly I would lead him and on what issues I would canvass with him.  Simply at that stage I would have an indication of what's in dispute, what's not in dispute, what's has been conceded by other witnesses.  And also with the practical constraints relating to the two witnesses who are on loan to us from the Department of Justice, if at all possible that their evidence in its entirety could be concluded today, this would facilitate arrangements on the part of the Department of Justice.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you intend to call Mr Luthuli or Mr Dlamini again?

MR MACADAM: No, not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Their evidence is then concluded.

MR MARITZ: Mr Chairman, Maritz on record.  I have a suggestion.  It's 12 o'clock.  We were going to adjourn in any event at 1 o'clock.  I can see little purpose in trying to rush a bit of cross-examination now and also I think it's not fair to the witness to have a thing stand over until Monday.  The other difficulty is that we have
 /now the
2B now the transcript of the evidence available to us.  I would like to look at it over the week-end and it will definitely facilitate speedy cross-examination and I would suggest that we take the adjournment now until Monday morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR STEWART: Mr Chairperson, I haven't had the opportunity to ask my client to what extent he'll feel disadvantaged having it held over, but I do know that he's anxious to have it done and most certainly I am, to facilitate my arrangements, and I would motivate that we do continue.  The cross-examination of Mr Luthuli did not take - I'm not sure exactly how long it did take, but not particularly long, and in an hour we may be able to well get done with Mr Dlamini.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the fact is that we have agreed that we will stop at one.  It's now 12 o'clock.  I can't anticipate how long counsel may take and I don't want to say that we've got one hour, because that's not really an opportunity for cross-examination and I'd rather hold it over.

MR MACADAM: It does have, just to emphasise the point made by Mr Stewart, a practical difficulty for the witness himself that were his cross-examination to be completed he would then return to his new home and not attend proceedings next week.   Now, also I don't want to be seen to restrict in cross-examination but it would appear to me that Mr Dlamini's evidence was considerably less contentious than Mr Luthuli's and if the issues in Mr Luthuli's evidence could be dealt with so completely in such a short period, it would be possible that Mr Dlamini
 /would go
2B would go even quicker, and I wouldn't want to restrict counsel to saying, "You have only one hour", but it would have the practical advantage that if it was concluded Mr Dlamini could then return to his home and play no further part in these proceedings.  If, however, it was necessary that counsel needed more questions after considering the transcript over the week-end, an arrangement could be made at a stage which is convenient to both counsel and to Mr Dlamini that he, in the course of next week, simply be brought back to deal with any further cross-examination that counsel upon reflection deems necessary.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anybody who wants to say anything with regard to a possible decision to stand this matter over until Monday?

MR VAN ZYL: (?):   If I may.  I've quickly looked at everybody else that's involved on this side of the proceedings and we all support the suggestion made by Mr Maritz, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, I think that in as much as we understand that Mr Dlamini may wish to go home, that there are bigger interests at stake here and we will stand the matter over until Monday, and you can look at the record over the week-end and we'll proceed on Monday.  The matter is then adjourned until 9 o'clock Monday morning.
MR   (?)   : Could we possibly make it 10 o'clock, because we are all flying from Johannesburg.

CHAIRPERSON: 10 o'clock Monday morning.

MR MACADAM: May I also, just for counsels' benefit, place on record, I've been in communication with Dr Williams.  He will be available the whole of Monday for
 /cross-examination,
2B cross-examination, but has difficulties due to very important matters Tuesday onwards.  If counsel would bear in mind that probably at 10 o'clock we could commence with Mr Williams' evidence and that at least we know it will be finalised by then.
PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO 1997/07/11
/PROCEEDINGS RESUMED