Special Hearings — Conscription Hearings — 1997-07-23

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: Thank you very much Reverend du Plooy.  I have the impression that your submission has been a very introspective process, and putting the submission together and we value that.
 The question I had in the beginning was if there was ever conversations amongst yourselves about the war and the role that Chaplains were playing in sending people, blessing people and sending people into a particular war, supporting that action?  In part my question is answered in that you said that there was no official writing, so there was no sort-of official discourse amongst yourselves about that issue, but was there any personal discourse?  I mean was there a struggle amongst yourselves about that very question and the morality of the war at the time?  And what was the nature of that discussion, discourse?

REV DU PLOOY: Yes there was quite a lot of discussion as far as I am personally involved with that.  Hendrik has got a few clippings from newspapers, Church newspapers where I was at loggerheads with the Church and the Chaplain General about this whole fact.  But more than that I was in the fortunate position to be at the HQ of Chaplain General where I met all the national service Chaplains, and we had discussions on discussions on discussions, almost every week, especially from the young English Chaplains which would have more problems thank some of the Afrikaans-speaking, but also some of the Afrikaans-speaking Chaplains.
 It was strange enough that if during - they usually went about just before the academic year the Chaplain General would go out to the universities and speak to all the Chaplains that are going to become liable for national service and if they would pick up some sort of thing that they didn't really - also from Afrikaans-speaking young chaps that they were not prepared really to get involved in the war they would have immediately been appointed to the Chaplain General's HQ.  They were not allowed to get into the field and that's where we had our discussions, and I played personally a very satisfactory role for myself in liaising and consulting with young Chaplains especially that had problems with the war.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: So it seemed though that there was a hyper-sensitivity almost to resistance to conscription and that those people needed special attention and special care by the Chaplains?  Am I interpreting that correctly?

REV DU PLOOY: Yes.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: The relationship between the General Synod and the Synod I find that very interesting in that there was a joint responsibility for the Chaplains but that the Chaplains did not need to report to the Synod on issues in relation to the work, the actual day-to-day working, did that seem like a problem?  Did it seem strange?  Can you give some explanation for that?

REV DU PLOOY: Piet Meiring will recall one or more Synods in Pretoria, regional Synods where I personally put on a fight just to report to my own church on what I was doing as a Chaplain in the defence force.  It was done by way of a general report usually by the Chaplain General to the General Synod and we were not really - we were not asked of to give any report of our work to our regional Synods.  We did have our diocese but that was only - we only discussed the administrative matters and so on.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: And there wasn't a general sense of concern around that, I mean you raised that as an issue for yourself, but there wasn't a general concern about that?

REV DU PLOOY: Ja, that's difficult to say because Dominies that were called to the Defence Force there names were also previously submitted to this Commission of the General Synod by the Chaplain General and they would eventually decide if you were allowed to be called to a Defence Force unit.  Why I was called I will never know.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: I am interested about the link between the Bible being one of the armaments, one of the equipment for war, and that there was this special message in the Bible as strengthening the fact that this was a very important aspect of the equipment of war.  I know you've made mention of it but can you just elaborate a little bit on that?

REV DU PLOOY: Mervyn van der Spuy will be able to testify that we eventually in about 1989 succeeded in having the message of P W Botha inserted as a loose leaflet and not bound in anymore.  Yes, it's also out of my own experience, as I said I started my service at the Technical Corp, the Defence Force.  I had a very nice OC, Colonel - English-speaking chap which made me feel at home immediately but he retired after a year and then one of my own elders in the Church where I was serving became the officer commanding of that unit.  He was in church every morning, every evening but he made my work as a Chaplain impossible in the unit, because he decided on what I must do, what I was allowed to do.  Without my knowing he forced troops during their inspections to also have their Bibles on their beds, even the Jewish and whatever had to have this Bible that was issued on the bed. It was part of their equipment.  That is why the Chaplain General felt good to remove me from the unit after two years, because he made it impossible because of that attitude he had, as a church member, as an elder in the Church.   It was considered very important for the young people to be well aware of what the Church is offering them, and we had special chaplains' period during the week where we would meet with them, church periods where you can talk with them on matters that you would prefer, do confirmation classes with them.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: To your knowledge is the message still in the Bible in the Defence Force?

REV DU PLOOY: No, no it's not there.  In 1988, 1989 it was removed and it's still available today but I don't think - somebody told me it's not being used anymore.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: You also, in the beginning of your submission there are about five questions related to why it is that people would enter into military service by conscription, are those rhetorical questions, have they been answered, have you come to some understanding of why it is so?

REV DU PLOOY: They did start off as rhetorical questions, that is often what in retrospect what I thought I would just put forward to get started off with the witness.  The fact is only that the Church made it so much easier for countrymen, young servicemen to join the Defence Force, because they knew the Church was involved, they were taught about national service during their confirmation classes, they would touch on civil obedience and things like that.

GLENDA WILDSCHUT: I don't have anymore questions, in fact I do have lots more but I think for now I wouldn't ask anymore, I think I have asked the more important ones that worry me at the moment and hand over to Pumla for the rest of the panel.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Glenda, and thanks to you for such an enlightening exposition of how the Church was infused with the whole conscription message.  We are very lucky in that we will have in our archives a copy of the Bible that you spoke about.  Isn't it amazing the things that happened that in the past?  Thank you very much.
 We will ask now Dot Cleminshaw to come forward please.  Dot is going to read a statement from Dr Peter Moll which sent to us from the US, the United States.  Dot will read a summary of Peter Moll's submission which is available to us.  All these submissions read today are available including a sneak into the Bible that Reverend du Plooy spoke about.  So without much further ado I will hand you over to Professor Piet Meiring who is going to facilitate your submission.
STATEMENT BY A CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR