Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-25

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, I think you should hold.  You said you didn't know him and Hanif, move on to your next point please.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of when Katiza Cebekhulu moved into Mrs Madikizela Mandela's house?

MS FALATI: No, I don't know.

MR VALLY: Was he staying there for a long period?

MS FALATI: At Mrs Mandela's place?

MR VALLY: That's correct.

MS FALATI: No, I don't know, Katiza came after just after we arrived at Paul Verryn's place.

MR VALLY: Mrs Madikizela Mandela says that Mr Cebekhulu only stayed at her house once or twice with you but he did not stay at her house for an extended period.

MS FALATI: I don't know.  Let me tell you, that is why I'm saying that I was staying at Paul Verryn's place when Katiza Cebekhulu was brought by Miss Engeleza from the SACC.  Miss Engeleza brought Katiza at Paul Verryn's place.

MR VALLY: So you don't know how long Mr Cebekhulu lived at Mrs Madikizela Mandela's house?  And after the incident regarding the four youngsters - when you were staying at Mrs Madikizela Mandela's house, was Katiza Cebekhulu staying there?

MS FALATI: After the incident?  Yes, he actually stayed at Mrs Mandela's house and at one time he was taken to my sister's place in the East Rand, he came back and stayed somewhere in Orlando East and the went back to Mrs Mandela.  At a later stage when he had the arms poured with boiling water, that was the last I saw - he was still in bandage from the hospital ...[inaudible] boiling water.

MR VALLY: You talked about pouring of boiling water, did you witness this?

MS FALATI: I was told by other comrades.

MR VALLY: You didn't witness it?

MS FALATI: No.

MR VALLY: You once previously retracted your statements you made in court ...[intervention]

MS FALATI: Pardon?

MR VALLY: You've once previously retracted the statements you made in court when there was a dispute with Mrs Madikizela Mandela about the house you were staying in and thereafter - after the matter was mediated, you denied your retraction, do you recall this?

MS FALATI: About the house what?

MR VALLY: Let me take it very slowly.  You made certain statements in court about what had happened, you had a dispute with Mrs Madikizela Mandela and you said you lied in court.  That dispute was resolved and you then said you did not say you lied in court - before your present position.  Do you understand what I'm saying?

MS FALATI: You said I issued a statement that I lied in court?

MR VALLY: You once said that and you retracted that.

MS FALATI: That I lied in court?

MR VALLY: That's right.

MS FALATI: Where is it?  Can you show me that place - paper?

MR VALLY: Do you deny that?

MS FALATI: No, I never retracted any statement, I said I lied in court when I said Mrs Mandela was ...[indistinct]  I lied to protect Mrs Mandela.

MR VALLY: Miss Falati, I want to end of this by asking you how long you stayed at Mrs Madikizela's house after the incident involving Stompie Sepei?

MS FALATI: I stayed there from the 1st of January 1990, he actually called me from the East Rand when he was staying with my sister in the East Rand.

MR VALLY: How many months did you stay there?

MS FALATI: I stayed there until the time when we quarreled in 19 ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: When was that?

MS FALATI: 1992.

MR VALLY: So you stayed there for over a year?

MS FALATI: From 1990.

MR VALLY: Over two years, I beg your pardon, approximately two years?

MS FALATI: Yes.

MR VALLY: At Mrs Madikizela's house?

MS FALATI: Yes, could be.

MR VALLY: What would you say to the allegation that it's simply because she refused to finance your appeal, that you are now taking revenge on her by saying this?

MS FALATI: You said what?

MR VALLY: That after living in her house for two years where you maintained your story, when your matter was decided in the Supreme Court and you appealed to the Appellate Division and at that point Mrs Madikizela refused to finance your appeal, it is then when you decided to take revenge on her and make the statements you are making now.  What is your response to that allegation?

MS FALATI: No, can you give me just a few seconds to explain?

MR VALLY: Sure.

MS FALATI: Don't suppress me please.  You know, there was a time in 1990 - when we were sent to - we were supposed to go to Lusaka - can you give me a time, that's why I asked for the time because I can see that ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: No, my question is very simple ...[intervention]

MS FALATI: I just want to answer your question that's the main thing.  That was in January 1989 when I wrote this letter to ...[indistinct] that is ...[indistinct] I was on my way in the Northern - on my way to Lusaka in the Northern Transvaal - we were told by Mrs Mandela to go there to Oliver Tambo so that we can explain ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Just speak into the microphone please.

MS FALATI: We were told by Mrs Mandela to explain everything to the President Oliver Tambo, so on my way to the Northern Transvaal I had to write this letter back to my lawyer so that they must know that I've gone out of the country.  You know what happened?
 My commander said to me

<UNKNOWN>: "Xoliswa, when you go there, please don't cover up anybody, tell the President Oliver Tambo everything which happened, the taking of the boys at the mission, everything which happened - right through, don't hide anything because if you're going to hide it they're going to ask you so many questions and at the end of the day you'll be told that you're ...[intervention in Zulu]
 ...[inaudible] said I shouldn't hide anything ...[inaudible] the truth to Oliver Tambo, so it was aborted because there were security forces - I don't know who told them because we were with John Morgan, Mabala and Katiza and they just disappeared.  John Morgan disappeared with Johannes Mabuto and we came back - we had to hire ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: Mr Chair, the question is not being answered ...[intervention]

MS FALATI: The question is answered.

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, you're not behaving properly please.  I don't want us to be invoking the powers that vest in us, will you please answer the question and try to be restrained.  I don't want to keep repeating, please try to be restrained, try if you are able to, to answer the question that is being put to you.
 I know that you may be full of a lot of emotion but try as far as you can because we need your help in the work that we are doing, please.  As we respect you, please try your best to respect us as well.
 Can you come to an end to Hanif, so that ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: ...[inaudible]
 Did you change your story regarding what had happened because Mrs Madikizela Mandela refused to pay for your appeal?  Yes or no?

MS FALATI: No, I was going to tell the story - I knew that I was going to tell the story when the Government of the ANC take over.

MR VALLY: My final ...[intervention]

MS FALATI: I waited for the right time, I was not going to tell the story in the apartheid regime because they were going to victimise all of us, so I was going to tell the story to the reliable people and the real leaders of the country as I'm telling them now.

MR VALLY: My final question is this, you've sent a letter to the now Bishop Paul Verryn on the 10th of April 1997, do you recall this?

MS FALATI: Pardon?

MR VALLY: Do you know about this letter you sent to Bishop Paul Verryn on the 10th of April 1997?

MS FALATI: Yes.

MR VALLY: Even in this letter at this stage in April 1997, you still portray yourself as a helpless victim who just wanted to help.  Is this how you perceive yourself?

MS FALATI: No, it's because it is only two months or three months that I'm getting paid by SAPO otherwise we didn't have funds until such time the Union ...[intervention]