Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

MR MGIDLANA: Yes, the problem that I have again with that is that you always are able to remember and recall those things that are not very prejudicial to - some of the things that are not very prejudicial to your case but some that seem to be very prejudicial to what you have said.  You can't recall?

CHAIRPERSON: I think this is your argument because you've just put it to him that the canvas bag method was an extremely serious method and he has mentioned that.

MR MGIDLANA: Thank you Chairperson.  Just a minute?
	Did you see anyone who was a detainee being stabbed in his private parts, testicles, with pins?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you see anyone having his scrotum squeezed in a drawer of a table?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Will you please explain that?

MR MGIDLANA: That is they will be put in the drawer and then the drawer will be closed so that they will be squeezed in there.  I don't know how but that is what I'm told.  Probably you're the one who can tell us better?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I also do not know about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mgidlana.  When you tortured people, did you ever torture people during the process, make them remove their clothes?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why do that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: It was also used with the canvas bag, the reason for him to be stripped of his clothes, the clothes would be white and thereafter he wouldn't be taken in ...(indistinct), a person with any wound or mark or wet clothes wouldn't be admitted therefore we'll try by all means that the clothes would be dry so that he would be admitted.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mgidlana?

MR MGIDLANA: Thank you, Chairperson.  Do you recall any encounter with a detainee by the name of Toto Magwentshu?
M-A-G-W-E-N-T-S-H-U.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes I do remember him.

MR MGIDLANA: You say in one of the annexures under Exhibit C, I'm not so sure how it is marked?  I'm not sure whether it's 1C2 because the order might be a little bit different.  It's C3, yes.  That is in C3, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's Magwentshu, C3.

MR MGIDLANA: In paragraph 3 there you say you deny he was ever tabbed - I think ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That's meant to be stabbed.

MR MGIDLANA: It should be stabbed - in his testicles with pins?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I deny that happened during my presence.

MR MGIDLANA: In fact he says that's what had actually happened in your presence?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Toto Magwentshu, canvas bag method was administered but after that you realised that he was a person who had chest problems therefore he would be made to lift up a chair but I know nothing about using pins.

MR MGIDLANA: Was there a bathroom in those offices or a room with a bath?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes there was a bathroom with a toilet and a bath.

MR MGIDLANA: Yes, he says - Magwentshu says in actual fact one day he was drowned in this big bath which was filled with water.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's probably going a bit far because if he was drowned then he would be dead.

MR MGIDLANA: Attempt to drown him.

CHAIRPERSON: There was an attempt to drown him.

MR MGIDLANA: Thanks Chairperson, there was an attempt to drown Mr Magwentshu by putting him in this bath which was full of water and he says you were present when that was being done.

CHAIRPERSON: Magwentshu was put in this canvas bag but it became apparent that he was asthmatic, we never used any water method on him because we could see that he could just die.

MR MGIDLANA: Was he tortured over one day?  Was Magwentshu tortured over one day?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: When I was present on this particular day yes.  When I realised that he was asthmatic and I don't know about the other time or day.

MR MGIDLANA: You say you never worked or had an encounter with the askaris, is that what you said?

MR LAX: He said he never worked with them, he didn't say didn't have an encounter with them because he speaks of meeting them and being told about some of the work but he never worked with them.

MR MGIDLANA: So you say you never worked with them?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I never worked with the askaris.

MR MGIDLANA: You were never present when they were doing their work?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No not in their killings, I was never present, because they were responsible for the killing.

MR MGIDLANA: Why do you jump to the killings?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Because they were killing people.

MR MGIDLANA: It's so funny that you jump to the killing, I never talked about any killing, I was just saying in their work?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: What kind of job do you know about them, the job that they were doing?

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, I think just answer the question.  The question was were you ever present when they were working, the askaris?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No.

MR MGIDLANA: Don't you know an askari by the name of Mtshiza M-T-S-H-I-Z-A, the first name, who was a lady, who was an askari then who might not be one today?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I don't even the askaris name.  Mtshiza was arrested as an MK member and she was a lady.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you comment to Boy Jafta that it's so funny that we want to go to your side but some of your people are coming to us, meaning MK people and you mentioned the name of Mtshiza and Moss who was involved in the killing of Ndondo?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I told Boy that Mtshiza was working as a maid in some house and the people were unaware that Mtshiza was an MK member.  That is the story that I remember telling Boy, I don't remember telling him that Mtshiza was an askari.

MR MGIDLANA: No, that's what he says, that's what he says, he says you told him about that, you even told him about many other askaris whom you said they were going out with this Sibongele Mtshiza, going out in what sense I'm not so sure but they were going out with her?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No, I only know Mtshiza as an ANC guerilla who was apprehended in Butterworth who was a maid there, I did not know her as an askari.

MR MGIDLANA: Now let's come to one aspect, you said you had - you and K K knew each other because you stayed together at Norwood.  Did I get you correctly?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Where exactly at Norwood did K K stay?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: We were both staying in Second Avenue, I can't even remember the house number of the house that I was in but he was in that vicinity, staying with Wolo and Zed.

MR MGIDLANA: You say you grew up together?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No.

MR MGIDLANA: So he was already old?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: We met at the gym, we met at the gym, the three of us.

MR MGIDLANA: I'm told that K K or Kia never stayed at Norwood but he stayed at Cumberland here in town?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: He wouldn't know where the girl stays, that is why I'm saying they were staying at Second Avenue.

MR MGIDLANA: When you were - I understand that security police from East London and some other parts of what was then the Republic of South Africa, will come over here and ask to be assisted when they were looking for certain guerillas or ANC or PAC trained people.  Were you aware of that?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes I was aware of that.

MR MGIDLANA: Were you never at any stage asked to accompany them when they were on this mission of looking for these people?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No.  All I did was at some stage they came, they wanted to be assisted because they wanted to arrest Ndeya at Norwood.  As they were still talking there the three of us left to go and arrest them.  I did not go there with them.

MR MGIDLANA: So at no stage did you ever accompany these security police from East London?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No.