Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-29

MS PATEL: Is Mr Goud Mr Hansel?  Have I got that right is it Mr Hansel?  That's the first farm where you got the rifle from?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes that is correct, he is the first one.

MS PATEL: Okay, then I want to put it to you that I've spoken to Mr Hansel's son who is present here today and he says that his father never ever when he spoke to his father after the attack on him, that there was no mention made of him being told of what your intentions were in terms of getting him off the farm?  What is your comment?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I don't know anything about that, maybe he was just saying it for the sake of saying it but I remember very telling him that.  We told him after he had given me the firearm.  After testing the firearm we told him that we need that place he should just leave the place or else we were going to set the house alight.  He is that person that I remember very well that we talked to him face to face about getting the farmers to leave the area.  With the others we did not get the chance to tell them because they would fight, on our arrival they would start fighting us.

MS PATEL: I want to put it to you ...[intervention]

ADV SANDI: Sorry Ms Patel can you just get more of this if you're going to be asking him about something else?
	Now what did you say to Mr Goud, did you say to him we want you off the farm and what did he say when you said that to him?

MSIANDA NTONGA: He said he was going to do so.  As we were leaving him behind tied up and we told him that Sir, we want this place, therefore we request you to go to the people who are like you in town and if you do not do that we are going to set the place alight and then we left the house.

ADV SANDI: Is that before you came back to attack him?

MSIANDA NTONGA: It is after we had taken the firearm and then we were leaving him with our word and we're telling him that we in need of that place, we wanted him to look for a place that has got people who look more like him next to the town or else we were going to set him alight and then we left him there.

MS PATEL: You know I don't want to be unfair to you, I know that you were very young at the time and that you were placed in possession of a very powerful weapon, namely that rifle.  Did you have any training in terms of use of firearms and a rifle specifically?

MSIANDA NTONGA: No, that is not so, I never got any training.

MS PATEL: Okay, why were you the one who was always in possession of that rifle at the incidents, well except at the Marulia farm where Jimmy had it with him?

MSIANDA NTONGA: The reason for that, I was the one who had the knowledge, who was familiar with this firearm.  There were other people who would operate it but I'm the one who was more familiar with the use of this because Mr Goud showed me how to use it but during the roadblocks I would leave it whenever I was changing shifts I would leave it behind for the others to use.

MS PATEL: Did you also know Mr Hansel before you went to the farm to attack him that night?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I did not know him, I just used to see him as the other white people from a distance, I never used to know him.

MS PATEL: Were you involved in the selection of any of the targets for which you applied for amnesty?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Selection by whom, by us or?

MS PATEL: By your group, were you involved in that process where it was decided who would be attacked or who would be told to leave whatever area?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes I was present from the beginning when that statement was announced, I was there since then I started attending the roadblocks all the time and the other things would be planned during the roadblocks as to where to go and get the firearms because there were not sufficient and the other people were using the other objects that were used to fight so we were planning during the roadblocks as to where to go and get the firearms, people would come up with ideas such as places.

MS PATEL: Okay and you also knew that there were specific instructions that nobody was to be killed yet most of the people you shot were shot in the upper part of their bodies?  Surely that is not consistent with just wanting to scare somebody?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I am saying the reason for me to shoot these people sometimes that would happen by mistake.  I did not aim at killing them, I am sure that if I aimed at killing them, I should have killed them.  If you went there to kill the people like Mr Hansel we could have killed him and Mr Pretorius and the others because I would fire more - I could have fired more than one shot and the others assaulted him until he fell down unconscious and if I wanted to kill him I would just finish him up with the firearm.  Even at Kolaga, if we wanted to stab her we had that chance, we would do it but we were not there to kill, we could have stabbed her if we wanted to do it because we had time for that.

MS PATEL: Tell me Sir, I want to put it to you that these deeds were not committed with a political motivation, that you and the rest of the members of your group inasmuch as there might have been a decision by the community in terms of how farmers must be dealt with in that area, that you were not obeying that decision, that you and the rest of your friends were out there with a different intention, that was not politically motivated, that was in fact criminal?

MSIANDA NTONGA: That is not so.

MS PATEL: Alright.  Thank you Honourable Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Patel.  Mr Ntonga, who filled in your amnesty application form?

MSIANDA NTONGA: You mean writing?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MSIANDA NTONGA: My co-accused.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't do it yourself?

MSIANDA NTONGA: No, I am not in a position to write in English.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you fired these shots at those people that you referred to in your evidence, did you accept that it was possible that those people could have been killed?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes that is correct, if you shoot at a person that person can even die but that was not my intention.

CHAIRPERSON: Now how many other people were arrested with you at the time after you had left the last farm that you spoke about?

MSIANDA NTONGA: It was seven of us when we were arrested, we were seven.

CHAIRPERSON: What did the police get in your possession?

MSIANDA NTONGA: When the police found me I had nothing.  I had abandoned the firearm in the forest where I was running, I abandoned it there and they caught me barehanded.

CHAIRPERSON: How did they get hold of the firearm, the police?

MSIANDA NTONGA: I do not know because I ran and I left at the place where I had left this firearm but it looks like they scratched for it and they found it because I saw the firearm in court.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did they find in the possession of the other six people?

MSIANDA NTONGA: We were two when we were arrested, we were walking in that forest, we were two when we were walking there and the others were in a Combi.  Only two of us was arrested in the forest.  Even this other one who was with me had a firearm from the old lady, the small firearm.  He decided to hide it in that forest and they couldn't find it, only mine was found in the forest.

CHAIRPERSON: So did the police also not find anything in the possession of your companion, the person that was with you?

MSIANDA NTONGA: Yes he had nothing when he was arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: The five that were arrested in the Combi, were they the other people that were charged with you in the criminal case?

MSIANDA NTONGA: They were not arrested the same day, they were arrested some months after I had been arrested and they were not in the Combi they were arrested in their homes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether when they were eventually arrested the police got anything in their possession?