Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR SEMENYA: In fact to illustrate the point I am advised that Jerry Richardson is here with a tracksuit of the Mandela United Football Club, today, in 1997.  Now the point I am trying to make is even when the Club was disbanded anybody who saw any of these young children with the tracksuit they would say these are the members of the Mandela United Football Club, is that a fair statement to make?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Well I don't know what they would say, but what I do know is that Jerry Richardson was introduced to us in Mrs Mandela's house and we were told that he was the coach of the Mandela United Football Club.

MR SEMENYA: But the point I am making, with respect, Mr Minister is even today somebody will point him out an say this is the coach of the Mandela Football Club and we know the Club doesn't exist and we know he is not a coach today.

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Ja I will say this is a person who was introduced to me then as the coach of the Mandela United Football Club.

MR SEMENYA: Yes the point I am trying to make again with respect is, the designation of people was in those loose terms, the designation of people at the time was in those loose terms, he was described to you as a coach of the Mandela Football Club when there was no coaching at the time, would you accept that?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Well I was not a member of the Club so I wouldn't have known that there is no coaching.

MR SEMENYA: Okay maybe let me put it this way, since you were not a member of the Football Club Mr Minister, as far as our information is concerned Gabriel Pelo, Thabiso Mono were not members of the Football team, at least Pelo says that much, are you able to dispute that?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: I wouldn't be able to dispute it also because he never at any stage claimed to us that he was a member of the team so I would have no basis to dispute that.

MR SEMENYA: Were any of these - Katiza Cebekhulu maybe would be a better illustration, was never a member of the Football team, would you dispute that?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: I will say he never declared to us that he was a member of the football team.

MR SEMENYA: And is it possible that now that we know he has confessed to certain things, that the deeds would have been ascribed to the Mandela Football Club?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Whose deeds?

MR SEMENYA: In this example, Mr Cebekhulu.

MR MOKOENA: I understand your question to mean that because he confessed to us that he was working for C R Swarts police station in Durban when he came to be associated with the Club the deeds, the negative deeds that occurred there were associated with him, is that the question?

MR SEMENYA: That those negative deeds in their community would have been ascribed to Mandela United Football Club even though he was not a football player himself.

MR MOKOENA: I would say in hindsight after his confession one would deduce that.

MR SEMENYA: Now can we just shortly deal with this.  Are you able, Reverend Chikane, to say whether you gained an impression that Mrs Mandela, whether rightly or wrongly, believed that the children had a complaint against Bishop Verryn?

FRANK CHIKANE: That was expressed to us quite forcefully.

MR SEMENYA: And I believe that, or let me put it differently, did you confront the children about the allegation whether they were assaulted at the manse, sexually that is?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Yes we did.

MR SEMENYA: And did they confirm that.

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: They denied when they were still at the Mandela residence.  But when they were no longer at the Mandela residence - your question was whether they confirmed whether they were sodomised or not?  Just put the question again please.

MR SEMENYA: Did they confirm to you that they were sodomised at the manse?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Yes they confirmed when they were still at the Mandela residence, but when they came out of the Mandela residence and we met them in Dobsonville at this what I would call, big meeting, because there were representatives of various community organisations, they said to that meeting they were primed to lie, they were not sodomised.

MR SEMENYA: Now we know that they have since retracted it, I am trying to test the information as you had it when you went about this issue in the residence.  One you had a version by them that they were indeed sodomised, is that factually correct?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: The assertion was made as we have said, it was initially made and subsequently retracted.

MR SEMENYA: With respect I am trying to ascertain before we - we know it was retracted down the line, I am trying to measure the understanding of issues at least within the Mandela residence at the time that you were there, that one of two - two things happened, the boys at least asserted that they were sodomised, is that factually correct?

MR MOKOENA: Yes they did.

MR SEMENYA: Mrs Mandela's desire to protect them was based on that assertion by them which now later turns to have been false, is that correct?

FRANK CHIKANE: Well it is correct as far as they have told us because I wouldn't know how they came to knowing about it.

MR SEMENYA: And if I understand you said Reverend that there was an occasion when you were with the boys without the members of the family?

FRANK CHIKANE: Ja, that's true.

MR SEMENYA: Even at that stage they hadn't said what they were saying was a lie?

FRANK CHIKANE: Two of those young people maintained that position.  The person who was you know fluctuating when he was alone was Cebekhulu, but the two others maintained the position.

MR SEMENYA: And at the time they make the retraction were they still at the residence or not?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: To our knowledge they were no longer at the residence.

MR SEMENYA: So it would not have been of any use to tell Mrs Mandela now these people say they have not been sodomised, would logic flow from that?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: There was nothing to be benefited from continuing to say they have retracted because at any rate that discussion was intended to determine whether they were relatively safer at the Mandela's residence in the light of the allegations and counter-allegations or whether they were relatively safer when they were at the Methodist manse.

MR SEMENYA: Now again one understands the political climate at the time and the nature in which communication would have been made during that time, is it factually correct that your communication to the then President of the ANC, Comrade Oliver Tambo, that communication you did not make it known to Mrs Mandela?

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: Ja sure we didn't feel obliged to say to her we've sent a report to Mr Tambo.

MR SEMENYA: No I am trying to address an obvious issue that whenever she sees these comments she would then say it cannot be original because the people who it purports it comes from are very close to me.

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: We will explain that because if that is what you are trying to get at, Mr Chikane will speak also on this because he said he went to Mrs Mandela's residence and she confronted him about this report.  I think it will be interesting for you to find out what he said to her.
 If you look also at Annexure A of our documents you will see that we released, or rather B, you will see that in 1992 on the 18th of April we got together to release a statement and that statement does make reference to this particular document which was a report to Mr Tambo.  So indeed as I said we did not go to her and say we are writing a report to Lusaka, but I am not aware that there was a discussion at least with us in which we said we disown this report to her.

MR SEMENYA: I will come to that point whether you disowned it or not.  I am merely asking that neither of these documents were presented to her and said look this is our document, this is what we propose to do with it.

SIDNEY MUFAMADI: No we didn't hand it to her.