Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

CHAIRPERSON: Morning everybody.  We'll continue with Mr Botha's evidence this morning.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: (s.u.o.)

GEORGE BIZOS: (Cont)
	Mr Botha, whilst you were in detention in November/December '89, did you know that Mr van Zyl and Mr Hardien were also detained under Section 29?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Just for the record I must just state that I have an old rugby injury in my left ear, I'm struggling to hear and I have a bit of a post-nasal drip, which means that I have a bit of a hearing problem at the moment, so with respect, Mr Bizos, I'm just struggling to hear you.  I apologise for that, but I did hear your question.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'll raise my voice so that we can get on.

MR LAX: Can I just say, if you put one of these one it's very helpful.  The reason I put it on is not because I'm not listening to you in your language, but because from these years of experience I know that these things really help.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I appreciate it, Mr Lax, I'm just not used to it, so I would prefer to continue without it for a while.
	Mr Bizos, if my memory serves me correctly, I believe that Mr van Zyl, or at least I was in detention and just a few days before my release, Mr van Zyl was arrested.  As far as I can recall, I don't believe that they told me that he had been arrested.  I cannot recall that.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(inaudible - no microphone)

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Also not.  Definitely not him.  I definitely wasn't informed regarding that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you expect the detention before it took place?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Brixton investigated the matter as such that they viewed it as a very high profile security type matter, so they didn't share those particulars with me.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, in your mind, did you believe that you may be detained and you may be called upon to make a statement about what you had done?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was possible, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you and Mr van Zyl discuss the possibility of your detentions?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Not at all?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.  It was just as big a surprise to me and I didn't have the opportunity to communicate with Mr van Zyl in any way.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now when you made that statement you told us yesterday you wanted to say things that would exculpate you, will make you not guilty, or less guilty as possible.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: At the time of the affidavit I reasoned as such primarily to assist the police within a specific framework and also because I didn't want to compromise the organisation to such an extent that they would not be willing to assist me.

GEORGE BIZOS: In that state of mind you no doubt told them that the bomb at the Early Learning Centre was merely for the purpose of frightening people and that you didn't intend to kill anybody.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I gave the facts regarding the bomb as best as I could recall.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, answer the specific question, which is: one of the best serving statements that you could have made to your interrogators in relation to the Early Learning Centre incident, would have been: "We did not intend to injure anybody, we merely wanted to frighten them."  That would have been the most self-serving statement you could possibly have made.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: In the way that you have stated it, yes, but I have told you what my experience was at that point.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you say that you told your interrogators what the purpose of the bomb at the Early Learning Centre was?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: As the facts were known to me at that point.

GEORGE BIZOS: You told them.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And did they record those facts?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: They did.

GEORGE BIZOS: As you told them?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, they did.

GEORGE BIZOS: And did they express satisfaction that they accepted that portion of your story?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I don't think these were facts which were known to them, so yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: And they were pleased to hear that the purpose was not to kill anybody but merely to frighten them.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I cannot say that they were pleased to hear that.

GEORGE BIZOS: In any event you have a very clear recollection that you told them what the purpose was?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: And that was recorded in your statement and you signed it.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now you see, would you please have a look at that statement and try and find where in that statement you told your interrogators that the purpose was merely to frighten people and not to kill them.

CHAIRPERSON: The statement's in bundle B, pages 1 and following through to 10.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please take your time ...

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please take your time and just show us the page and the lines where you say what the purpose of the bomb was.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I state quite clearly there that
"Shortly afterwards we heard a bang"
It's as I've stated previously.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, no, just listen please.  Show us where you say what the purpose of the bomb was.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I do not see it the way that you want it at the moment, I have simply stated it as I saw it and I cannot explain it any differently to you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Would you accept from me that having read your statement very carefully again over night, that that exculpatory or partly exculpatory statement nowhere appears in your statement?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I simply see the fact that the bomb had to be set off.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, we're not talking about letting the bomb off, please credit us with a little intelligence and try to, or rather, stop trying to avoid the kernel of the question.  Do you agree that on a very careful reading of the whole of this statement, nowhere therein do you say what the purpose of the bomb was?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I will answer again if you will give me the opportunity.  I stated to the investigating team that I had to detonate the bomb and that is what I've stated.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you think that you've answered the question?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well let's leave the rest for argument on this particular point.  You see, you told the Committee a short while ago that you had a distinct recollection that you told them what the purpose of the bomb was to ...(indistinct) that is was not to kill anybody, but merely to frighten them.  Did you or did you not say that a short while ago?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Then I should just rephrase, perhaps I conveyed it incorrectly.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, let's - do you agree that that is what you said?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Possibly I meant that I had to detonate the bomb.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, I'm not asking you what you meant, do you agree that that is what you said?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Possibly I stated it as such but I did not mean it as such.

GEORGE BIZOS: Not "moontlik", do you agree - you know this "moontlik" has already been discredited by His Lordship, Mr Justice Stegman in the Webster Inquiry, here "moontlik" doesn't cut much ice.  Do you agree or disagree that this is what you said?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: If I stated it as such, I request the opportunity to rectify it ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Right, now just before we go further ....

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: May I also have the opportunity please?  I stated that I had to detonate the bomb, that was my primary task.  I was there to detonate the bomb.  Bottom line.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, the bottom line is, did you speak the truth or did you lie to the Committee when you said that you told the investigators that the purpose of the bomb was not to injure anybody, but in order to frighten?