Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Well the mere fact that it went off shows to me that it was the will of God.  That is my interpretation of it.

GEORGE BIZOS: And you were doing God's work on this night.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, I was part of a dispensation where God offered me the opportunity, it was not for me to question whether it was his will or not.  The bomb went off.  I asked for his will to be done and the bomb went off.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you remember the Lord when you raise your hand and say to speak the whole truth and you lie?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I remember doing that and speaking the truth.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, I'll leave it at that.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Thank you.

GEORGE BIZOS: You tell us that your affidavit that was placed before the Commission is annexed, we haven't been able to find it anywhere, do you know or perhaps our learned friend knows what affidavit is referred to.

MR VAN ECK: Mr Chairman, if I can come in on this one here.  We took over this matter from, I think the beginning of last year and since we noticed that we've endeavoured to get hold of that statement.  I've approached Ms Coleridge a few times to see if we can't get hold of it, we've been to the Harms Commission to try to get hold of it, unfortunately up to now we were not able to trace it at all.  I can't say what happened to it.  We have tried everything that's possible to get it but unfortunately we couldn't get hold of it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Very well Mr Chairman, I accept that and will try and proceed on the basis thereof.

MS COLERIDGE: I also just want to confirm from the Commission's side, Chairperson, we were never in possession of that statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  It seems that it's unfortunately not available.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why was your presence as a bomb expert needed merely to press the button?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, my presence as I interpreted it, was to bring the limpet mine into its final stage of preparation for detonation.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you hear what Mr Barnard said about this matter?  That you were really surprised that you were asked to take part in this, because you could teach a chimpanzee in 10 minutes how to do it.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I heard his evidence, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: What do you say, was he telling the truth or not?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I don't believe I would have used those precise words ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Well leaving aside the colourful language that Mr Barnard uses, did you use words to that effect?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Not that I can recall.

GEORGE BIZOS: Can you explain why Mr Barnard may have wanted to say what he said, if you had not uttered words to that effect?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Perhaps I used other words.  I cannot think that Mr Barnard would recall my precise choice of words.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well do you concede that you used words to that effect?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I have told you upon a previous occasion that the contrary is also true, that I was actually relieved to return to the system no matter what the method.

GEORGE BIZOS: On page 5 of your statement, of the bundle - sorry, B, you say
"Later that week we gathered at a hotel.  There I heard that the R100 000 had been approved for this project."
Did you say that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: This in my statement here, however it is false.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why did you sign it, for what purpose was this falsehood put in there?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Once again I will have to tell you the state of mind that I was in meant that I didn't reason rationally.  I considered a number of options at that stage and perhaps I coloured it as such in order to oblige the organisation to become involved, to give this whole matter unnecessary colour or unnecessary meat.  I cannot say any more than that.  They same aspect pertains to this part of my statement, it is false.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you visited by a Magistrate?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I beg your pardon?

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you visited by a Magistrate when you were detained?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you sure?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I was not.

GEORGE BIZOS: You've got to be careful about being sure about that.  Were you visited by a doctor?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I was.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you complain to the doctor that you were disorientated and you didn't know what you were talking about?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I lost 12 kilograms in 25 days, so I think it's fairly obvious.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, it may be that "I lost weight", but I ask you, did you tell the doctor that you were disorientated and that you didn't know what you were talking about?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I did not state it in such specific words possibly, but from his examination a doctor could clearly see that I wasn't myself.

GEORGE BIZOS: Alright.  Leaving aside this R100 000, let's try and determine what the price of a human life was for the CCB.  You only got R5 000 for helping Barnard to kill Webster.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: He only got R10 000 for killing him, that's correct?

CHAIRPERSON: I think just to be fair Mr Bizos, there was a salary as well.  This was a performance bonus I think.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Over and above your salaries.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: This was the bonus.  Now we know that Peaches had a salary, we don't know for certain whether Hardien had a salary, but let us assume that he didn't, we have heard that he was promised R30 000 for placing that bomb.  Are you in a position to dispute that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I didn't promise it to him.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, no, you were part of an organisation.  We have heard that R30 000 - would you accept that there is evidence that he was promised R30 000?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I heard from the evidence here that that was the amount.

GEORGE BIZOS: And we also know that he was actually short-changed by R12 000.  Now we don't know the purpose of the reduction, it may be because the bomb didn't succeed in its purpose, but even at the R18 000, why should some unemployed person who is described as a gangster, be paid R18 000 for merely placing a bomb to frighten people?  And others, including Peaches, including Barnard, including others, should be called upon to kill people for less?  Can you explain that at all?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I cannot.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is it possible that the R12 000 was deducted and used for another purpose or purposes, because the main objective of the bomb did not materialise?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I cannot say that.

GEORGE BIZOS: If you knew what the average rate for a murder was, why did you choose to speak about R100 000 in your statement?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: How should I know what the average amount for a murder would be?

GEORGE BIZOS: From your experience.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: The 15 is not necessarily an average amount.  If you want to refer to Dr Webster.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, we know of a R5 000, we know of R10 000, we know R15 000 for Peaches, we know what was promised in relation to Gavin Evans ...

CHAIRPERSON: I think even if you didn't know those other amounts, but at the time that you did the statement you knew that Mr Barnard got R15 000 for the assassination of Dr Webster.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Which was a high-profile operation.  The question asked by Mr Bizos is if you knew that R15 000 would be paid for an assassination of that nature, why would you mention the amount of R100 000 in your statement?  Because obviously you must have known that R100 000 is a lot higher than the amount paid for the Webster operation.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I wish I could give you an answer to that, but I cannot recall my reasoning at the time of it.  I must apologise for that, but I cannot tell you.