Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-01

MR RAMAWELE: Whilst at CR Swart Police Station, did you see the members who went into the township, did you see them?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, Chairperson.

MR RAMAWELE: And immediately thereafter when you saw these members, where was Maj de Kock at that stage?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I do not remember where he was when we came back, but we came together from the bridge, together with the other people who were there, but I do not remember very well what happened when we arrived at the base, but all I know is that they said the mission was successful.

MR RAMAWELE: And when you went to - when you transported the members and waited at the bridge, where was Maj de Kock?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: He was with us and Nortje - he was driving with Nortje in his car.  That's is Mr Nortje's car.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, I don't follow.  Did you bring the members back in your car, in the kombi, those who participated in the operation or not?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: We brought them back. I transported them.  I was driving the vehicle.  We waited under the bridge and they left for Chesterville and they came back, they got into the car and we went back again.

ADV DE JAGER: So you took them to the bridge, they left you, they came back, you picked them up and you drove them back to the police station?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: That is correct, Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Were you the only person in your car who didn't go ...(intervention)

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I was not alone.

ADV DE JAGER: ... on the operation?  No, who didn't go on the operation.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I was not the only person who did not go to the operation.

ADV DE JAGER: Who waited with you in the car?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: It was Mr de Kock and Mr Nortje and Geoffrey Bosigo was also there.  I cannot remember the others who did not go to the operation.

MR SIBANYONI: Where exactly were the other people who didn't go to the operation?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: They were also waiting under the bridge with me.

MR SIBANYONI: You alighted from the kombi or the car you were driving and you stood underneath the bridge?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: We were not using one vehicle, there were other cars, two or three cars.  The other white people were in the other cars.  The car that I'm referring to was a white kombi, the one that I had used to transport the people to Chesterville and even the black people were with me in the car, in the kombi.

MR SIBANYONI: In the car you were driving, were you the only person who was waiting there under the bridge?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I remember I was with Geoffrey Bosigo.

MR SIBANYONI: So how many other cars were there apart from your car?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: As I've already said, there were two to three cars.  I cannot remember well.  There were a lot of white people there.

MR SIBANYONI: Are you able to say how many people waited in each of the other cars?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I cannot be certain, but I can say it was approximately five to six people.

MR SIBANYONI: There is a possibility that you won't remember exactly who were on the other cars?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I cannot remember all of them, but Nortje was there and Mr de Kock was also there, I am certain about that too, and Geoffrey Bosigo was also there.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Ramawele.

MR RAMAWELE: Thanks, Mr Chairman.
	Now after coming back from the bridge and the members also being there, did you hear Mr de Kock speaking to the members on that day or later, about the incident?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: After some time, Chairperson, Mr de Kock, I heard him saying the people have made a mistake because there are people who are still alive from the people who were shot, some of them were still alive and the incident is under investigation, a certain officer is in charge, and he even mentioned the name of the officer who was investigating and he even said the people who were involved they are going to select people who are going to make a statement and before that statement is made there should be a consultation with Nortje and the other white people he had mentioned, people who were also there and he was actually telling what was going to be said.

MR RAMAWELE: Is there anything further that you want to mention in respect of this incident, which is necessary?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Chairperson, that is the end, there's nothing else to say.

MR RAMAWELE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RAMAWELE

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Ramawele.
	Mr Nofomela, how many members of Vlakplaas participated in the infiltration?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I cannot say for sure because this incident took place some time ago, but I can still remember some of them who were present.  I cannot remember the others.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm not referring to the whole group, I'm just referring to those members who actually went into Chesterville.  How many were they?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I am saying I cannot remember them, but -I cannot remember all of them, but I can still remember some names.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are those that you can remember?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Tandi, I cannot remember her surname, Radebe, Paulus Magage, Susan Moekwena ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Hold on, hold on.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Susan Moekwena.  I cannot remember the others.

CHAIRPERSON: So it's Tandi, but you don't remember her surname ...(intervention)

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Tandi Hlope or Shope.  I am not sure whether the surname was Hlope or Shope.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: Was she not Shosha?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: That is possible.

CHAIRPERSON: So there's Tandi, it appears Shosha and there's Radebe.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Simon Radebe.

CHAIRPERSON: Simon Radebe, ja.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Paulus Magage.

CHAIRPERSON: And there was a Susan Moekwena.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: And Susan Moekwena.

CHAIRPERSON: Those are the members of the group that went into Chesterville, that you can still remember?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, Chairperson, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they - what was their role, what was their position at Vlakplaas?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Simon Radebe was a Sergeant and the others were just askaris.

CHAIRPERSON: So Simon was the only one that was a member of the police at that time?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: All of the others were askaris?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And were all of those that you've mentioned here, were they armed with the AK47s and the service pistols that you thought you saw?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Chairperson, they had firearms, but I saw only one AK47 rifle, I saw only one of them, but I know that they were all armed.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember the date of this incident?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Could it have been the 20th of June in 1986?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember at about what time it was that you took this group to the bridge and left them to go into Chesterville?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: It was in the evening, Sir, I cannot be sure as to what time was it.

CHAIRPERSON: How long did you wait for them about, approximately?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: I cannot say for sure, but it was quite some time.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a few hours?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: No, it was not more than an hour, it could have been half an hour.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you only took these people into Chesterville once, on one occasion, this one that you're telling us about now, when shooting happened.

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you only hear one shooting incident taking place whilst you were waiting there?

BUTANA ALMOND NOFOMELA: It was not one firearm that was shooting, it was just automatic firing and it was quiet after that.