Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR PRINSLOO: And for whatever reason then, you joined the AWB.   Was there another reason why you joined the AWB?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: The election was coming, the country did not experience a good climate, it was a difficult climate, and I decided to join the AWB.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you have certain fears?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, I feared that the Communist Party would come into power and that then, that it would be very difficult then, once they've taken over the country.

MR PRINSLOO: So did you want this take-over to take place?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, no I didn't.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you in the army, did you receive military training?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, in 1971.

MR PRINSLOO: And did you fight at the border or was it internal?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, it was internal.

MR PRINSLOO: And what you experienced in the army and what was conveyed to you by the then government, did you support the policy of the then government?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, I was always NP, up until the early 90's, and then I became a CP member.

MR PRINSLOO: Why?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Because already then the NP was busy giving our country away, therefore I joined the CP.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Visser, I would like to take you to the 12th of December 1993.   Did somebody come and see you at your house?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, this Sunday evening I was at home.   I woke the morning, so I was on standby, and then Klopper came to me around seven in the evening and he told me that he came from an order group, and he'd meet me at the roadhouse at nine o'clock and then we were called up.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you told to bring anything with you?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I didn't have a uniform.   He told me the clothes that I was wearing at that time was good enough, I could come in that, and he told me I should bring my weapon.  I had a 765 Bredalli (?) pistol.   At nine o'clock I arrived at O'Harry's.

MR PRINSLOO: And here at the roadhouse, who were there?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: At that stage me and Kloppers arrived there the same time, there was also Commandant Deon Martins, "veldkornet" Meiring, Commandant Van der Schyff, Commandant Visser, all of them were there.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Visser, at that stage, in the capacity of Kloppers, did you regard him as a friend or did you see him in the capacity of a higher official?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: At work we were friends, but when it came to the AWB affairs he put it to me clearly that he was Chief Commandant and that I'm a Warrant Officer, and that it's the same as it is in the Defence Force.

MR PRINSLOO: So you respected him as an officer?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Completely.

MR PRINSLOO: And at this roadhouse were any instructions given to you which you can remember?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes.   Chief Commandant Phil Klopper arrived, as well as Martin, and they brought us to attention and they saluted.   At that stage I didn't know how to salute, but they saluted and then Klopper spoke to us and said that he came from an order group and that he received instructions and that specific evening we would go out to work and that General Oelofse gave instructions that we had to start working, the revolution was about to begin, and that we had to work.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you told at the roadhouse what was expected of you, what kind of work were you to do?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: They said hard options, they did not mention then that we would set up a roadblock, but they talked about hard options and that there are going to be bodies.

MR PRINSLOO: Were all of you armed, all of you who were at the roadhouse?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No, everybody was not armed, and pipe shotguns were distributed.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you know who received this?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Van der Schyff received a pipe shotgun, he was with me in the car and I saw that he had a pipe shotgun, and Visser, but at that stage I did not know the guys and I could not identify them.

MR PRINSLOO: You said you saw a pipe shotgun in the car when Van der Schyff was sitting with you in the vehicle.   Did you see when he physically received this weapon?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No.

MR PRINSLOO: You did not?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No.

MR PRINSLOO: But you saw a pipe shotgun in the car?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, he had it with him then.

MR PRINSLOO: And Van der Schyff, the other applicant, was he with you in the car?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, there were only two of us in one vehicle.

MR PRINSLOO: And that's how we amended it in page 61, paragraph 5 in your application.   Mr Visser, where did you go from there, you and Mr Van der Schyff?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: We, together with the other vehicles, went to the residence of Badenhorst.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you have...
TAPE ENDS - WORDS LOST
...what happened to this belt with the bullets in it?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Van der Schyff took it.

MR PRINSLOO: And what did he do with it?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: He put it around his body.

MR PRINSLOO: And then you went to Badenhorst's residence?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And what Mr Badenhorst's house, what happened there?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: We changed the registration plates or the numbers, mine, and Kloppers asked me if he could use my vehicle.   I said that's fine and we changed the registration plates with masking tape and then he asked me if I had liquor in my flat and I said I had a bottle and he asked if we can drink it and I said that's fine, we can.

MR PRINSLOO: And then you went to your residence?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, we went to mine.

MR PRINSLOO: And did you use alcohol there?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes.   The bottle was no longer sealed, but I poured all of those who wanted a drink.

MR PRINSLOO: What kind of alcohol was it?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: It was First Watch whisky.

MR PRINSLOO: And after you drank the whisky at the flat?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Then my alcohol was finished.

MR PRINSLOO: So you drank the whole bottle?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Maybe I should have put it differently.   Afterwards, where did you go then?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Then we drove to Commandant Deon Martin's smallholding.

MR PRINSLOO: And were you told anything at the plot?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, we were told that we are going to set up a roadblock and we had yellow jackets and a blue light, all the equipment you'd need for a roadblock, also torchlights, etcetera, all of this was distributed to the people.

MR PRINSLOO: And at Mr Martin's plot, did you drink anything?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: I do not drink brandy, there was brandy, I did not drink it.

MR PRINSLOO: Did the others drink?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes.   I cannot say exactly who drank brandy.

MR PRINSLOO: Just with regards to this, at that stage some of the people were unknown to you?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Most of them were unknown to me, the only one I knew was Martin Van der Schyff and Chief Commandant Phil Klopper and Commandant Deon Martin, I only knew him for a few days, that's all, all the others were unknown to me.

MR PRINSLOO: And from there you went to another place?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That's correct.   We drove, we followed the Mercedes.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you drive?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, I was driving my own vehicle.

MR PRINSLOO: Did anything happen on the way there?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes.   Two black men, it could have been three, who were walking in the road, they had bags, I cannot say exactly what, and somebody told me to stop.   I stopped.  Some of the people got out of the cars.   One of the pedestrians ran away.   I ran and I followed him, I chased him.

MR PRINSLOO: And what happened now with regards to the people who were running away?