Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-14

MR LAX: When you say we it's you and the approximately 50 other people?

JACK MBELE: No, it's myself and Makuka.  When we left this street there were people coming from the second street.  I think these were the people who got into the houses in that street because they had cups, duvets and many things.  We met together at a group that was already waiting for us.

MR BERGER: So you, Makuka, the group of attackers who emerged from Bafukeng Street, you then moved to join the other attackers in the veld?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Now you see that area where you were and the other people who came out of Bafukeng Street, that is very close to the robot.  Let me put it this way, in order for you to get to kwaMadala, all you would have to do is to move straight, cross over Frikkie Meyer Boulevard and proceed towards kwaMadala.  Am I right?

JACK MBELE: You're right.

MR BERGER: How far did you have to walk from that corner to where the main group of attackers was waiting?

JACK MBELE: About ten metres.  They were not far.

MR BERGER: And this was a huge group of attackers, am I right?  Hundreds and hundreds of men?

JACK MBELE: You are correct.

MR BERGER: From there how did you all get back to the hostel?

JACK MBELE: When we joined the group we all proceeded for the hostel.  When we left that spot I saw a police vehicle, an armoured vehicle and because we were walking fast the vehicle reversed after Themba shot in the air.  The vehicle reversed until a garage.  We crossed a bridge and we walked on a small path until we reached kwaMadala.

MR BERGER: How far away from your group, this is now the big group, was this armoured vehicle that retreated from you?

JACK MBELE: About 250 metres.

MR BERGER: You see what I don't understand, this armoured vehicle was moving along Noble Boulevard, is that right?

JACK MBELE: I heard that evidence here, I never saw it driving in that street.

MR BERGER: Well it was driving in the street which runs next to the firms, is that right?

JACK MBELE: They say so, I would agree with you.

MR BERGER: And when you met the group, your group, it was approximately ten metres from the intersection of Bafukeng and Thembu Streets?

JACK MBELE: I don't want to stick to that 10 metres, I was just estimating, I'm not sure.  It is just an estimation of the distance.

MR BERGER: But it's not a very far distance at all?

JACK MBELE: No it's not a far distance.

MR BERGER: Now the armoured vehicle then couldn't have been 200 to 250 metres away from you?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, I am saying to you that these are just estimations, I am not saying it is an exact figure.  This happened a long time ago and I used to go around in Boipatong, I know that place.  I'm estimating Sir, I'm saying it's about 250 metres, it's just to give you a direction.

MR BERGER: You see, on your evidence, that armoured vehicle must have been very close to you, very close to you before it started retreating as you say?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I cannot agree with that statement.  It's confusing and misleading.  Unless the evidence is that that armoured vehicle was driving on the grass land or area in that vicinity that statement would be correct but I never heard any evidence that an armoured vehicle drove onto the grass area but it stuck to the tarred section and if that's the situation it cannot be very, very close as it was put.

MR BERGER: If the armoured vehicle was on Nobel Boulevard and the huge group of attackers was congregated approximately ten metres from the corner of Bafukeng and Thembu Streets, that group must have been very close to Nobel Boulevard.  I will leave it at that but by something very close is relative, if one would have a look at the EXHIBIT M1, one can form a kind of estimate.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your answer Mr Mbele?

JACK MBELE: Mr Berger, can you repeat your question please?

MR BERGER: Mr Mbele, I'm trying to ascertain how far this armoured vehicle was from your group.  Now you spoke about ten metres, not in that context admittedly, I'm not holding you to that and you spoke about 250 metres.  So you know the difference between a very small distance and a very large distance, 250 metres is much larger than ten metres.  I'm not holding you to exact metres but what I'm saying to you is, if the large group, the hundreds of people that you joined was approximately ten metres away from the corner of Bafukeng and Thembu Streets then it means that that large group was not far from the road, the tarred road, that runs next to the factories which is Nobel Boulevard.  Would you agree with that?

JACK MBELE: I do not agree with that.  Mr Berger, when we emerged from the corner of Amatola, we did not proceed straight to a group of people.  We walked towards - we moved towards the left direction, they were in the open veld towards the left.

MR BERGER: When you returned to kwaMadala you came through the main gate, is that correct?

JACK MBELE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: When you walked through the streets of Boipatong you had no difficulty moving around, is that right?

JACK MBELE: In some of the streets we did not have difficulties, in some of the streets it was difficult to walk properly.

MR BERGER: Why is that?

JACK MBELE: Some of the streets were not barricaded and some were barricaded with stones and other things.

MR BERGER: The entrance to Boipatong, the exit to Boipatong along Moshweshwe Street, the exit along Amatolo Street, the exit along Lekwa Street, both north and south, those were not barricaded, correct?

JACK MBELE: That is not correct.

MR BERGER: Which ones were barricaded?

JACK MBELE: There was a wire in Moshweshwe Street and some trees and we removed those so that we can pass through.  When we approached from the corner, there were stones blocking the road in Lekwa.  That is at the point when we met the self defence units.  After that I followed the road that I have already shown and indicated on the map.

MR BERGER: So you moved the obstacles out of the way?

JACK MBELE: Yes they were removed.

MR BERGER: When you got back to kwaMadala, did you go back to the stadium?

JACK MBELE: I did not.

MR BERGER: Why is it that some attackers went back to the stadium and others claim not to have?

JACK MBELE: You do what you feel is right for you.  No one was forced to go to the stadium.  If you felt like going to the stadium, you went and if you didn't feel like, you didn't go.

MR BERGER: The following day, this is now the 18th June, a lot of property which was stolen from Boipatong was burned.  You witnessed that burning, am I right?

JACK MBELE: You are right, I witnessed the burning.

MR BERGER: Why were the goods burned, why was this property burned?

JACK MBELE: The people were destroying the evidence, that's what I would say.  We were destroying the evidence.

MR BERGER: Who told you to destroy the evidence?

JACK MBELE: I'm saying I thought these good were burned to destroy the evidence.

MR BERGER: But who instructed the people to burn the goods.

JACK MBELE: I do not want to commit anyone, I didn't hear anyone saying the goods should be burned.

MR BERGER: Where at kwaMadala were the goods burned?

JACK MBELE: Next to our room there's a new gate in kwaMadala.  This was for the employees of Iscor to go through.  Now the goods were burned next to that gate.

MR BERGER: At what time on that day were the goods burned?

JACK MBELE: I am not sure, Mr Berger, what time it was.  I would say it was round about 9 o'clock in the morning, between 8 and 9, just somewhere there.

MR BERGER: Well you know that a lot a property was stolen from Boipatong, taken to kwaMadala Hostel and I assume that all the people who stole property took the property into their respective rooms, would I be correct?

JACK MBELE: You would be correct.