Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-10

MR MEY: My question was, you were told that the Police will give you some assistance with the attack, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am not in a position to respond to that question, I do not know, but when we went to attack, we were in the company of the Police and they were in casspirs.

MR MEY: Did you ever see that Rooikop supplied weapons to Mr Themba Khosa?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I do not know anything about that.  I have been questioned on it before and I have said the same thing before.

MR MEY: The night of the attack, 17th of June, the Boipatong massacre, when you met the Police with the casspirs in the veld, can you indicate the distance that the casspirs were away from the township?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am not in a position to estimate the distance, but they were not that far away.  That road towards Vanderbijlpark is not that far from the veld.

MR MEY: When you got to the casspirs, where was Chaka?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He was there.

MR MEY: Inside the casspir or outside?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They were standing outside the casspirs.

MR MEY: What clothes was he wearing?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not remember well, the one person that I remember is Peens.

MR MEY: Was his face camouflaged?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, he wore a balaclava, but he did not paint his face with any substance, it was only the white Police Officers who had painted their faces.

MR MEY: And Rooikop, where was he when you got there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He was also amongst them.  I got into a casspir that Rooikop was also travelling in.

MR MEY: When you got there, was Rooikop outside the casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said most Officers were outside the casspirs, and I did not know some of them.

MR MEY: But you do know Rooikop?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did not notice him when I arrived, but when we got inside the casspir, I did see him there inside.

MR MEY: Where was he sitting or standing?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He was sitting at the back.

MR MEY: Right at the back or in the middle of the casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He was seated at the back, right at the entrance.  I do not know how to explain it, the others were seated in front of the casspir.

MR MEY: Who entered the casspir first?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not recall.

MR MEY: Was it the Police or the hostel residents?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I do not remember sir, I will not commit myself, but I also went into the casspir, but I cannot say whether it was the Police or the hostel residents who went in first.

MR MEY: Can you remember what clothes Rooikop wore that night?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I do not remember.

MR MEY: Why do you specifically know what clothes Peens wore that night?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I saw him, because we were in one casspir.

MR MEY: What was the clothes he was wearing?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Who?

MR MEY: Peens?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He wore a white shirt and jeans.

MR MEY: Was it a long sleeve or a short sleeve shirt?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was short sleeved.

MR MEY: Did he wear a jacket or a jersey?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I just saw him wearing a white shirt.

MR MEY: Was he the only one wearing a short sleeve shirt?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He is the only person that I noticed, I do not remember with regards to the others.

MR MEY: You told the Committee the reason you know that Peens wore a short sleeve white shirt and a jeans, was because you were with him in the casspir.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I noticed him but I did not notice what the others were wearing.  If I had noticed what they were wearing, I would be able to tell you.

MR MEY: But that is my question Mr Nosenga, it is strange that you have noticed Peens' clothes, and you are not in a position to tell the Committee what clothes the other people were wearing?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I have stated before, if I had noticed them, I would be in a position to explain what they were wearing, but Peens was the only person that I noticed.

MR MEY: Sorry, I don't understand you now.  Are you saying if you had noticed them, or if you noticed their clothes?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mey, this is not - waste time on it, the man, the person that he noticed was Peens.  What else do you want him to say?  If he did notice the others, he would have told us.

MR MEY: Mr Chairperson, if I do understand correctly, he testified that he noticed Peens and his clothes, but he also testified that he noticed Chaka and Rooikop in the casspir and if I do understand his evidence correct now, he also testified the reason for him noticing the clothes of Peens, was the fact that he saw him in the casspir.  My question now is if the other two were in the casspir, why didn't he notice their clothes?

CHAIRPERSON: What is it that you wanted him to notice?  He has told us that they were in the casspir, are you asking him why didn't he take note of what they were wearing?

MR MEY: Yes Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any reason why you didn't notice what the others were wearing who were inside the casspir?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I said before, if I had noticed what they were wearing, I would be in a position to tell today, but the one person that I noticed, whose clothes I noticed, was Peens.  I just saw the others wearing balaclavas, but I did not notice what they were wearing.   Therefore I cannot say or try to explain what they were wearing.

MR MEY: Thank you.  What was the colour of Rooikop's hair?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: White hair or blond.

MR MEY: I want to refer you to Exhibit R, page 20, paragraph 14, the last sentence thereof
"... Rooikop had a very light complexion, almost like an Albino, red hair, thin and was about 170 to 175 cm's tall ..."

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know about that, Rooikop had blond hair, he is thin, he does not have red hair, but blond hair.

MR MEY: Did you, when you made this statement, did you also correct this when it was read to you or when it was interpreted?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is possible that I was not properly quoted, because as I said before, the Interpreter did not speak fluent Zulu, but Rooikop has blond hair.

MR MEY: On the way to the township, Chaka and Rooikop didn't say a word, is that correct, on your version?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said I do not recall.  They were conversing, but I do not remember, I do not know what they were saying, they were speaking in English.

MR MEY: Did they say anything, but you didn't know what they were saying?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: If they were conversing, I did not hear them.

MR MEY: When you got to the first house, you got out of the casspir with the other hostel residents, is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR MEY: Did you immediately enter the house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, the casspir was driving very slowly and Peens and the rest of the Officers, were shooting at the people in the streets, while we went into the houses.

MR MEY: Who were the Officers who shot at the people in the street?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was Peens and others.

MR LOWIES: I can't hear a word.

MR LAX: Peter, we need another headset up here, there is a spare one here actually.

MR LOWIES: Sorry Chairperson.

MR LAX: Is that better Mr Lowies, can you hear us?

MR LOWIES: Thank you.

MR MEY: You said Peens and other Officers were shooting at the People, do you know any of the other Officers who shot at the people?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: One of them was Chaka.  I did say that.

MR MEY: Did you see Rooikop shooting at the people?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was not in a position to see the other Officers.

MR MEY: Why not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was also going about my business and I would only see them if for instance I was coming out of a house or something like that.