Special Hearings — Health Sector Hearings — 1997-06-17

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Thank you Professor Ames.  I have, in the interests of time, I have a few questions, maybe two.  Much has been said about the condition, I'll call it, the condition of poor training of district surgeons, perhaps even forensics as mentioned by the other presenters.  Is it really just a question of poor training?  Could it also be, or have been a subjugation of professionalism to the political ideology of the day, first?
 Second, you mention that, and I quote,
"All medical students should be taught about human rights...."
and I think that's probably a paraphrase.  There are two critical issues that come out of this.  One, the district surgeons of the past continue in their assignments.  If we follow the argument, they are still poorly trained.  There is something very frightening about their continuation if we have not done any corrective measures and in effect the rehabilitation of district surgeons.  
 The second is, if we agree that all medical students should be trained, or should be taught about human rights, taught by whom?   By the very professors who perpetrated discriminatory practices?  I mean this is a very serious question that I am asking.  Who teaches the teachers of the medical students?  
 Should in fact all medical doctors, regardless of whether they were perpetrators, so to speak, or not, in fact should this whole society be rehabilitated so that we all start from scratch?  What is your thinking about that?

UNKNOWN: I think all the factors that you have mentioned about the collusion of the district surgeons with the Security Police and various other factors, their fear, their submissiveness are all true.  But then on the other hand the Security Police certainly didn't want Biko to die.  They knew that there would be an international outcry and they summoned the doctors nine times in three days, so that there was inefficiency at a clinical level.  But then the recognition that they were inefficient, so that they strongly advised that he should be hospitalised and receive specialist treatment, but then they yielded to the Security Police once they refused that, and didn't make a point of it.  So I think all these factors are important.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Thank you very much.  To you Chairperson.

WENDY ORR: I am afraid I am going to have to, and I am glad Professor Ames is supporting me in being autocratic from the Chair, in that one of our next witnesses has to leave at 16H30 so we do have to move on.  So I am not going to allow any further questioning.  But thank you very much Professor Ames for being here.
SYSTEMIC ABUSE

WENDY ORR: I am going to ask Dr Leslie London and the witnesses who are accompanying him to come up to the table next.  Their evidence will be facilitated by Ms Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Good afternoon to you Ladies and Gentleman.  Thank you for coming at this point of the submissions.  Welcome to you Miss Ncanywa and Mr Nel and to you Dr London.  Thank you very much.  Before we start I will ask Miss Glenda Wildschut to swear you in.

LESLIE LONDON: (sworn states)

BETTY NCANYWA: (sworn states)

JACOB NEL: (sworn states)

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Glenda, and I am Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela.   Leslie I think you are going to give a brief introduction.  Thank you.

LESLIE LONDON: Yes. Thank you to the Commission for this opportunity.  This session is looking at complicity of health professionals in systemic abuses.  And I think we have heard quite a lot about how services in the past have been discriminatory.  I think the purposes of this session how health services, both in the public and private sector, were complicit, not just in the sense of providing discriminatory or racist health care, but were coopted into the security agendas of the apartheid state.
 I have asked Mr Jacob Nel, who is a resident from Zolani in Ashton, who has travelled in this morning for two hours to be here, to tell his story.  And Mrs Betty Ncanywa, who unfortunately has to catch a flight at 5:30 which is why we are under time pressure.  So I am not really going to introduce them other than just to ask them 
to speak.  Unfortunately Betty will have to leave and I doubt she'll have time to answer any questions.  But Betty will speak first and then Mr Nel and then I will put in some summaring comments.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Please go ahead Betty.  Thank you Leslie.