Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

MR LAX: So you never gave him the R50-00 note, it was still in your own hand?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: It was still in my hand.

MR LAX: You see the State witnesses at the trial said that they saw you reach into the car, reach into the vehicle and grab something out of the vehicle.

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is not true.

MR LAX: They also said there was nobody else next to you at the car.

GLADWELL SELAHLE: The people who arrested me, arrived after this incident.  They did not witness the incident from the beginning, they only came on later.

MR LAX: They say they were witnessing the whole incident, you didn't see them?  How do you know they weren't witnessing it?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I am saying it is not true.  They say they saw me with a gun, and I did not have a gun.  That is why I am saying to you they were trying to frame me, they wanted me inside.  They did not see what happened.

MR LAX: I didn't understand your answer when asked why did you not say in this application that Peter was the one who shot this person dead.

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes, I did not mention Peter.

MR LAX: I am trying to understand why did you not mention Peter.  Why didn't you say here - you knew you had to tell the truth, is that correct?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

MR LAX: So why didn't you tell the truth?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I knew that I would come today before you and tell you the truth.  That is what I am doing now.

MR LAX: It still doesn't explain why you didn't tell the truth in this piece of paper that we have here, that you signed as the truth.  What reason were you hiding, what were you hiding, what were your intentions?  What were you afraid of?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I was not hiding anything.  I am saying I did not state Peter's name knowing that today I would sit here and tell you truth of what happened.

MR LAX: So you can't give any explanation for why you lied in this form when you knew you were supposed to tell us the truth?

CHAIRPERSON: I wouldn't think it is a lie, I think it is an omission.  He omitted to say something, and that is, that wouldn't be tantamount to a lie Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Yes, fair enough Chairperson.  You can't explain why you didn't say who actually killed the deceased?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I have no reason.

MR LAX: Now, one of these questions asks you who commanded you to do this thing, you understand there is that question in this form?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I saw the question.

MR LAX: In relation to that question,  you answered under the command of Commander Skananda, we provided protection to the defenceless and then you wrote yes, I do admit that the SDU's, they were commanded by me.   That is your handwriting, right?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is my handwriting, but the signature that appears there, is Skananda's.

MR LAX: Yes.  But of course, that wasn't the truth, was it?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: You did not understand me.  I told you how this paragraph got in there.
	We initiated this as comrades, Commander Skananda I met in prison.  The question was put who ordered this offence, and I told him that nobody in the group ordered this offence, we, all of us took the initiative and that is how his name appears here.  It is an initiative from all of us.

MR LAX: The simple question is to say that this was under the command of Skananda, is not the truth and you knew that?  Isn't that so?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is so.

MR LAX: Why didn't you tell the truth in relation to who commanded this thing?  If nobody commanded it, why didn't you tell the truth and say we all commanded it?  Do you understand my question?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I explained to Commander Skananda about our initiative and he said to us, it would not be a problem to admit and take responsibility and say he took an order.
	I asked him whether I would not meet difficulties with this form when he fills it this way and he told me no.  He told me that he would take the responsibility and write this paragraph here.

MR LAX: It is a simple question, you knew that that wasn't the truth, correct?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

MR LAX: But because he said you should do it that way, you did it that way?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.  I think I told you already that I did not understand some of the questions and he assisted with the filling of such questions.
	Because I had no knowledge of how to fill some of the questions, I would not refuse his assistance.  I told him that we took an initiative, all of us, and he told us to forget about the initiative part, he would take the responsibility and say he was the Commander.

MR LAX: So you understood that that was a lie because he told you to forget about the truth, he is taking responsibility?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Selahle, Mr Lax asked you a question which is really important and it worries me particularly in relation to applicants like yourself, who have no access to legal representation whilst completing your application forms, because you are in jail.
	The question was why did you not disclose in your application form, Peter's participation in the killing of Mr Mkhabela and his participation is important as you know, because he is the one who pulled the trigger that resulted in Mr Mkhabela's death?  He went on to say what were you afraid of when not disclosing Peter's name in your application form.
	When looking at the application form, what I note is that in fact you have said nothing about this incident at all, not even about your own participation.  This is one of those application forms which should have been invited from the Amnesty Committee's side, a request for further particulars, because it disclosed nothing about the offence for which you are seeking amnesty.
	Do you concede that there is very little, even about your own participation in this application form?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes, I concede to that.

CHAIRPERSON: So it is not an omission of Peter's role in the killing of Mr Mkhabela?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: It is not an omission, he is the one who pulled the trigger.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you said very little even about your own participation?  Was Mr Skananda the only person you could rely upon in assisting you to complete this application form?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Most of the times when we met as comrades, he would sit with us.  He was very near on the day of filling these forms.  I am not surprised today to see so many mistakes.
	I was just convinced that Skananda had knowledge, because the Prison Services did not do anything for us.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he the only person that you could rely upon at that time, in completing your application form, yes or no?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the ANC not assist any of you prisoners that you are aware of, in completing such application forms?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: No one in Medium B was assisted by the ANC, it is Skananda who assisted us.

CHAIRPERSON: And this Skananda assisted you also in his capacity as a prisoner, isn't it?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you given a copy of the Act called the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act by the Prison Authorities?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: We were not given such a copy.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you not advised that your application had to comply with particular or certain provisions of that Act by Prison Authorities.

GLADWELL SELAHLE: We were not told anything, they just gave us forms.  They said they are amnesty application forms, we should see as to how to go about filling them.

CHAIRPERSON: You therefore did not know what requirements you had to satisfy in order for your application to succeed?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes, we did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did Skananda sign this application form, did he give you a reason?  His signature appears on page 46 under paragraph 11(b).
	Did he tell you why he had to sign that portion of the application?