Human Rights Violation Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1996-06-27

AMANDA EUNICE MAGWACA WONGA BILLIE: The police who was keeping the keys I didn't see.  I didn't see him, because he didn't appear.  The ones who appeared are those who had come to fetch him.
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MR SANDI: Do you remember mentioning a policeman who had keys to your cell?

AMANDA EUNICE MAGWACA WONGA BILLIE: I know the police who came to fetch Magwaca.

MR SANDI: In your statement you mentioned Constable Arendse.  Do you remember saying that in your statement?

AMANDA EUNICE MAGWACA WONGA BILLIE: Indeed dear Commissioner, I am sorry that there are some witnesses who should be here who I don't see now.  I am sure they are here.  The person who knows the police who was having keys is Themboqozi Mbambani.

MR SANDI: Is that all you want to say Mr Billie?

AMANDA EUNICE MAGWACA WONGA BILLIE: Yes, that is all I want to say, that is all I want to say, however, the police who came to fetch him, I have not yet mentioned their names because I know them.

MR SANDI: Can you do that?

AMANDA EUNICE MAGWACA WONGA BILLIE: One was Van Rooyen, there was Nieuwoudt, there was Faku.

MR SANDI: From which cell, is this a different cell?

AMANDA EUNICE MAGWACA WONGA BILLIE: They started at our cell, that's the mistake they made.  Jam was there and another gentleman who was called Bele.

MR SANDI: And who of them talked to you, did they come in one by one or did they come in as a group?

AMANDA EUNICE MAGWACA WONGA BILLIE: They didn't enter the cell, they actually stood outside the door and Van Rooyen is the one who talked.

MR SANDI: What did he say, did he say he wanted Mr Magwaca?

AMANDA EUNICE MAGWACA WONGA BILLIE: He said where is Popi, I am looking for Popi.

MR SANDI: What time was it?

AMANDA EUNICE MAGWACA WONGA BILLIE: I think it was about two, it was about two o'clock if I am not mistaken.

MR SANDI: Now when it is being alleged that Mr Magwaca ran away from the police station, does that surprise you that
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they don't even know where he ran to.

AMANDA EUNICE MAGWACA WONGA BILLIE: Yes, that surprises me because after they had taken Popi away, they, after some time came back.
 And then they shouted at Lamla, they said where is Lamla Magwaca and he responded and said, here am I and they came and they said Lamla, your father is a cheat, he ran away and Lamla Magwaca, you can't come and tell me that because he was first by you, you will know where he is.

MR SANDI: Is that all you want to say before I hand you over back to the Chairperson?

AMANDA EUNICE MAGWACA WONGA BILLIE: Yes, for now that is all that I would like to say.

MR SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Magwaca, you are one of many many women here in South Africa who have the problem of being widows who never had the opportunity to give funeral rights to their husbands.
 They don't even know where they ended up.  You are one of those people who have that problem.  We will try the best the Commission can, using some aspects of Mr Billie's statement and piece them together and see whether we can get any direction that will bring us close to the truth.
 Thank you.

MRS MAGWACA: Can I just have one minute Honourable Commissioner, there is another youngster who gave a statement.
 He knows the policeman who took my husband away and those comrades were arrested with him.  Those who were with him in the cell, they know.  Even this second youngster who made a statement Themboqozi Mbambani, he knows this policeman.  That's all.
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CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, we will follow that one up as well.