Amnesty Hearings — Pretoria — UNKNOWN

BAREND STRIJDOM: Yes.
ADV. BOSMAN: And the training, was there training for soldiers?
ADV. BOSMAN: There were various forms of training that were given at various times and there were also different sections of Aquillo and I think that depending upon who received which training, they differed ever so slightly from one another.  It is as Mr Lottering testified that many or much of the training was about the protection of, or VIP's is the word that he used, very important persons.
ADV. BOSMAN: You were asked to make a distinction between racism and political objectives.

BAREND STRIJDOM: Pardon, that is as far as I know there was also a time period in which all of these things occurred that is when I was arrested and before the actions of Mr Lottering and the AWB's attitude could possibly have become more serious or have weakened but the National Party was making more and more concessions and that is why the AWB emerged more strongly in a military fashion.
ADV. BOSMAN: You were asked to distinguish between racism and political objectives, may I put it to you in this way, let us assume that Mr Makgalamele was a very strong supporter of Mr Mangope and we know that the AWB came to the assistance of Mr Mangope.  Would he also have been regarded as an enemy of the Volk if you had known that Mr Makgalamele was a supporter of Mr Mangope and promoted the idea of separation of population groups, would you have said that he was an enemy of the Volk?

BAREND STRIJDOM: I will put it to you in the following way - one should also remember that it was indeed so that the AWB assisted Mr Mangope and in the given situation which is quite a difficult situation for me to expand upon because I don't have all the details.
ADV. BOSMAN: But we are just speaking on the basis of principle.  Would you say that the - or let us assume that Mr Mandela would announce today that tomorrow you would be receiving your Volkstaat, would you regard him as an enemy of the Volk?

BAREND STRIJDOM: On this basis I would regard him as a sometime enemy or perhaps an opponent but perhaps in this given situation I think that because he isn't a member of the Boerevolk, I think we should move the emphasis to what is important for the Boerevolk and because he is not a member of the Boerevolk there could be some things regarding which one could have agreement with the ANC but that does not necessarily indicate a complete agreement with the ANC.
ADV. BOSMAN: Well aren't you indicating pure racism if you cannot establish a proper distinction?  Isn't that purely racist?

BAREND STRIJDOM: I would not view it that way.
ADV. BOSMAN: Well I don't wish to take the point too far, but if Mr Makgalamele had been a supporter of Mr Mangope's government and he had been murdered and you had just come to hear of this, would you say that an enemy of the Volk had been murdered?

BAREND STRIJDOM: Conversely, one could look at it and think what did Mr Mangope do in order to support the cause of the Boerevolk in order to help us obtain the Boere Republiek and within that given situation, it is not only about Mr Mangope but for all other purposes - everybody who is not a member of the Volk in South Africa, it would then be so that the majority of the population is black in South Africa and therefore one would have the tendency to regard blacks as an enemy of the Volk and that would be racism.
ADV. BOSMAN: Well will you not concede that there was a measure of discrimination in the killing of Mr Makgalamele because nobody knew really who and what he was?

CORNELIUS JOHANNES LOTTERING: I think that there might have been the situation that there was an aspect of propaganda to this issue as I understand these things about Mr de Beer, that acts were committed sometimes in order to indicate how serious they were.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions from arising from questions that have been put?

MR MOSTERT: No Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Strijdom.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mostert?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: (sworn states)

MR MOSTERT: Chairperson, this is Andre Stephanus Kriel.
	Mr Kriel do you know the applicant Mr Lottering?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes I do.  I met him years ago while I was in the AWB.

MR MOSTERT: Were you a member of the AWB at any stage, registered and sworn in?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes for a number of the AWB, I had met Mr Terre'blanche in 1979.  Shortly after the establishment of the AWB I became a member and later I obtained the rank of Brigadier and I was part of the top structure of the AWB.

MR MOSTERT: Was Mr Lottering a member of the AWB?

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: Yes he was a member and later he was selected to be a member of the Aquillos.

MR MOSTERT: I would like you to specifically inform the Committee regarding firstly the AWB policy.

ANDRIES STEPHANUS KRIEL: For those of us here who did not live with the AWB for a number of years it would be difficult to understand exactly how things functioned there.  I do not wish to take up too much of the Committee's time but I would just like to sketch a picture for you.  Over the years there was a number of increasingly confusing statements made by the AWB.  At one stage, Mr Terre'blanche would say "destroy all the blacks" and the next day he would say something completely different and we reached the stage in approximately 1988/89 when the Aquillos were established and I was a Commander of a region and we encouraged people to establish cells and to devolve from other organisations because we had security problems in the AWB.  Pardon me for speaking too long but I must indicate that the Commanders of that time saw the ANC as a complete enemy, it was the order of the day within the AWB that the ANC was regarded as an enemy and we all had consensus with one another that the ANC members should be killed.  We had no doubts about that, that was what the AWB was about, there was an enemy, the enemy had to be eliminated.  I must say that I am grateful that we could attend the Amnesty Committee meeting today because I myself have a conscience which I must cleanse and the Amnesty Committee is granting us the opportunity to do this.  If it was not for this Committee we would still be involved in a struggle and I would like to say that there are young men who have ended up in prison as a result of people such as me and Mr Terre'blanche who gave orders and the true people who are behind these matters, we encouraged people from platforms at that time.  We encouraged them, we told them that there was an enemy out there who had to be eliminated and I must say to you today that I regret it.  We expected that the day that the ANC took over government that there would be a great witch hunt on our nation.  It did not happen, in other words we were part of a big mistake.  In fact the government of the day established a Volkstaat's Council which the former regime never granted us and we realised that we were wrong and that what we did was wrong.  I had much to do with Mr Lottering in prison, we visited him, Dr Rubin Riches was with me, Professor Piet Meiring also accompanied me.  Professor Meiring pertinently asked the question, would these people be willing to participate in a reconciliation programme and Mr Lottering was one of the first who said yes, that he would participate in a reconciliation programme.  But today we have a different context in a different time context - if it wasn't for this Amnesty Committee, there would definitely have been an even further loss of blood.  I would just like to request today as a former Commander of that time, I feel that those who ended up in prison, I would like to offer my apologies for the trauma which I caused as a Commander and a Commanding Officer of the AWB.