Human Rights Violation Hearings — Soweto — 1996-07-24

THOMAS MANTHATA: Even afraid of the teachers?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: Yes, we are afraid, we are afraid of going to the school.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, Tom.  Could I ask Hlengiwe, do you have any questions?

MS MKHIZE: Lizah, maybe you can explain a little bit as to - when we read your statement the first part you are telling us about things that were happening at home, saying those were things that were done by police.  Is that true?

INTERPRETER: The speaker is not tuned into Zulu.  She is not, she is in English.  The speaker should be tuned into channel 3, that is Zulu, yes.

MS MKHIZE: Can you hear me properly?  What I am saying is, the first part of your statement you tell us about the things which happened to the family and you say the things that had been done by the police, but towards the end you tell us that the child was killed by the organisation that belonged to the community. Let's look at this properly, where you say the policemen harassed you.  Explain that.

LIZAH DHLAMINI: What happened, the police used to come so often and say they were looking for my son. I did not even know why they were looking for him. Oftentimes the police were coming.  The people who came to shoot, I just heard from the people who saw that it is the people who shot.  The police, yes, they used to come but they - we could not tell whether the shootings were done by the police or by the
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people.

MS MKHIZE: If I hear you well, you say police would come and fetch him and people would tell you that there were some people who will come to shoot.

LIZAH DHLAMINI: Yes, during the day when I was not there.

MS MKHIZE: Maybe that will help the Commission to follow this story better.  That those people who used to tell that there are some people besides the policemen, did they use to tell you the names of the people so that this could help us to identify whether those people were police or not.  Did they make mention of any names, besides the policemen who could identify this one and this one.

LIZAH DHLAMINI: Yes, each time they saw those people they would tell me, they have seen those people. They actually called those people Azapo. I never even knew what kind of people were those.

MS MKHIZE: Maybe there are some people in your area.
They still know today, they belong to some organisation or are they community people?  At the time were they community people?  Could you explain a little bit about these people, what kind of people are those, how do you take those people in the community?  We don't know those people, but if we are coming from Dlamin we could understand you, but the background is different, please explain.

LIZAH DHLAMINI: Those people used to say they were the ones who were killing people.  People were saying that group is the very one which killed people.

MS MKHIZE: Did they tell the community that they are the very ones who are killing?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: No, they will not say that.  They never said that.
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MS MKHIZE: Are those people still around or do you still hear about rumours that the people from Dlamini are still there?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: No, I hardly ever go to Dlamini, so I wouldn't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin?

YASMINE SOOKA: Mamma, can I just ask the lady next to you to adjust the number on this ear-phone so that you can actually understand what I am going to say?  Can you hear me?  Okay.  The Commission knows that in Dlamini during this time when your son was killed, there were a lot of fights between Azapo and the UDF.  Do you know anything about it?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: (The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Switch the mike on, please. Zodwa, switch the mike on when she talks.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mamma, did you understand my question?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: Yes, I did.

YASMINE SOOKA: Let me try another way.  You said that in Dlamini 1 mostly Azapo people stayed.  So can you tell me if in Dlamini 2 where you stay, were all the people UDF people?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: Yes, it is UDF.  His friends.

YASMINE SOOKA: Do you know, before Walter was killed, do you know if there were fights between the Azapo people and the UDF people of which Walter was a member?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: I wouldn't know, I don't know.

YASMINE SOOKA: But you said that the policeman told you that in Mudusu, who is also known as Walter was killed by Azapo people.

LIZAH DHLAMINI: When the police came they never said he was killed by Azapo.  They simply asked me have you heard that Walter is dead.
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YASMINE SOOKA: So why do you think that Mudusu was killed by Azapo people?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: I heard from people who saw where he was shot, that he was killed.

YASMINE SOOKA: In your statement you said that one of Mudusa's friends was with him at the time.  Did that friend tell you that Mudusa was shot by the Azapo people?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: Yes, he is the very one who said that.

YASMINE SOOKA: Where is he now? Is he still living in Dlamini, Mudusa's friend?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: No.

YASMINE SOOKA: Do you know where one can find him?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: I can go and ask from his family, his whereabouts.

YASMINE SOOKA: This is quite a difficult question.  When the young people used to fight, did they fighting between the two groups affect the older people or only the younger people?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: They most affected the youth. I am not so sure.

YASMINE SOOKA: Did the older people in the community try to stop the fighting between the people from the UDF and the people from Azapo?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: Yes, they did try, because once we went to Moroko police station to report this matter, that there are people who keep surrounding this place and shooting.

YASMINE SOOKA: But the police were not interested in sorting this out.  Did the police help you?

LIZAH DHLAMINI: No, the police never bothered themselves. When we got back from the police station, after reporting the matter, that there were people who were troubling us at
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night, shooting, they never took any action.  There was never anything that was done and there was no difference.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you, Mamma.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Dhlamini, thank you very much for coming.  It is again, a complicated case to unravel, which we as the Commission will certainly try to do through our investigative unit.  So we will need to contact you again and try and get more details specifically so that they can follow up on the details that we have here.  Thank you very, very much for coming.
 If I could then just please explain to people, we will now break for lunch and try and take it in 45 minutes.  Could I please, before anybody moves, could I please make an urgent appeal in connection with the head-phones.  These, as you know, are very expensive equipment which is specially here for us to be able to understand the different languages.  I make an appeal for people please when you go out, leave the head-phones behind.  Please do not take the head-phones with you.  Please don't let them walk as some of them have been walking, because they are totally useless outside of these little boxes and those boxes. So if I could please make an appeal for people, leave the head-phones behind, you can pick them up again when you come in.  Thank you very much. We will break for lunch.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS
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