Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-26

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: If I can just ask, are you referring to something that would have assisted us in our plan?

MS THABETE: According to your evidence, you wanted to assist the ANC from the attacks, isn't that correct?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes.

MS THABETE: So what I am asking is, when you discussed, first of all you didn't discuss it with them how you could assist them, that is correct, isn't it?  You decided to go and discuss it with your colleagues, how you could assist them?
	So what I am asking you is, when you discussed with your colleagues how you could assist these ANC people, what options did you discuss besides going to rob the pension pay out?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Besides robbing or - firstly I would like to explain ...

CHAIRPERSON: Did you discuss any other options or not, that is a simple question?  Or was this the only plan that you discussed?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: During our discussions we realised that there was no other way because even when we discussed about maybe stealing firearms from our safe at work, we realised that that will be difficult.

MS THABETE: Sorry, I want to cut you.  So you are saying you didn't discuss any options?

MR LAX: No, listen it is clear from what he says, they did discuss other options.  They discussed for example stealing from the safe.  The trouble is that he won't tell us what these options were.  Please Mr Hlengwa, you've got to help us here.
	You have been asked a simple question, what options did you discuss?  It has taken 10 minutes to get out of you that one of the options that you did discuss, was stealing from the safe at work.  You must help us here otherwise we are going to be here forever.  Please.  It is a simple question, you discussed with Dlamini and Mdluli various ways of getting firearms, is that correct?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: What were those various ways you discussed before you settled on the one you tried to execute, okay, tell us?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: One that we discussed was to try and steal them from work.  This proved to be a problem because it was not easy because they were always locked in a safe.
	You wouldn't go alone to the armoury, but with the Commander.

MS THABETE: The second option?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: We did not discuss a second option until that opportunity arose when Luthuli discussed with us the matter of going to rob the money.

MS THABETE: For example, I mean you were a policeman, you were working for the law, didn't you maybe think it would be appropriate for you to investigate who these people who were attacking you know, your Section, who these people were and if possible, arrange that they get arrested?  Didn't you think of that option?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: As a member of the police at that time, I did think of that, but the problem was who would I investigate because this happened at night and these attacks happened all over the township.
	As a policeman working in the Uniform department, I did not know where to start, who to investigate, because police in our police station, did carry out investigations but there were no results from those investigations.

MS THABETE: So are you saying to me yourself and your colleagues, you couldn't form a team and go and investigate in an area that you were familiar with, is that what you are saying to me?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: No, we would not have been able to because the people who were attacking the area, were not from the area.

MS THABETE: How do you know that?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Firstly, I believed that people from the area or people with whom we shared the same objectives, would not come and attack us.

MS THABETE: It could have been people from another Section, but within kwaMashu, you are familiar with kwaMashu, you were a policeman in kwaMashu, it is not a remote area for you?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: What I am saying is how do you start investigating when people just come in the night and attack you and they flee afterwards, and there are investigations going on at the police station, but these bear no fruit?
	And you also have that knowledge that in the fighting or in the investigations, you know that the police take sides.

MS THABETE: Okay, thank you.  Let's get to the actual incident of the day.
	Before you actually robbed Tapuka Store, there were other attempts you made, isn't it?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I do not understand what you are referring to.

MS THABETE: You went to the first pension pay out, isn't it and then you didn't rob that one, you proceeded to the next one, you didn't rob it and then you robbed the third one, is that correct?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

MS THABETE: Why didn't you rob the first two ones, can you explain it briefly, very briefly?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: At the first pay point a lot of policemen arrived, they were in a van.  We realised that we could not carry out the mission because there were too many policeman, so we abandoned the idea.
	At the second pay point, there were also too many policemen present, but at the scene of that crime, I think the security was lacks because nothing was happening, and we realised that this was our opportunity.

MS THABETE: You remember talking about Mr Luthuli who was also there at the pension pay out?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes.

MS THABETE: And you said he was expecting you there?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes.

MS THABETE: Was he in the third pension pay out, or was he also in the first and second one?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: He was also present during the other times.

MS THABETE: Okay, so when you arrived there, who actually fired the shots first?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I will say it was Mdluli because as I said before, he pointed the gun at this policeman and a shot was fired, and the policeman fell.  Therefore I will say it was Mdluli.

MS THABETE: Tell me something, when you decided to go and rob the pension pay outs, didn't you foresee that innocent people could get killed?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: It did not occur to us, because what was emphasised was that we were not going to harm or kill anyone, but we were just going to accomplish our mission.

CHAIRPERSON: If that is so, were your firearms loaded?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you load your firearms if it wasn't your intention to kill?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: It did not occur to me to actually empty our weapons.  As a policeman our guns were always loaded.

MS THABETE: Which is exactly my point.  I mean, your initial aim was to assist the ANC, not to kill innocent people, and unfortunately you are saying you did not consider other options, which were probably safer where innocent people wouldn't have been killed.
	Also I don't understand why you really carried guns, if you did not intend or if  you did not foresee that maybe innocent people could be killed.
	Further, what I don't understand why did Mhluli shoot first if it wasn't your intention to kill?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Firstly, you would not proceed to a point where there are armed people, without being armed yourselves.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, this is exactly the point Mr Hlengwa.  You are saying you will not proceed to a point where you know people are armed without being armed.  Taking that into account, are you still saying you did not see the possibility at all, of somebody getting shot?
	Do you still stand by that statement?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: I hoped or I believed that if you point a gun at somebody, they would not retaliate, in fact they would be scared.
	If you point a gun at somebody, you do not expect them to fight back.  That is why I thought that when we pointed out weapons at them, they would just give up.

MS THABETE: You are talking about other policemen here?

LUCKY JAMES HLENGWA: Yes.

MS THABETE: You were expecting them not to shoot back?