Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-31

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No Sir, like I mentioned yesterday.  I didn't 
want to be part of this process because they had already been 
sentenced, and I was quite prepared to forgive the whole thing, not 
forget, I still haven't forgotten. I still haven't forgotten, to forgive 
until these allegations came up that my brother was shooting at 
them.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Surely, you know, then I battled with my mind. 
 That if my brother was shooting at them, then surely when they 
were shooting at us, we must have been shooting at them as well.  
Were we shooting at them or not?

CHAIRPERSON: All this is a repetition of a great deal of evidence 
we have already heard.  Can we move on.

UNKNOWN: Were you approached at all by the TRC 
Investigators to make a statement?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: They contacted my sister-in-law and I told my 
sister-in-law that I didn't really want anything to do with that, and 
so did she.  I think they did contact her.  I was told by the family 
and I said the people had been sentenced, and I don't want anything 
to do with it.  Quite happy with that.  Quite happy to forgive, but 
not forget.  I haven't forgotten, it might take me another year or 
two, I don't know.

UNKNOWN: You are very angry, is that right, about what 
happened to your brother?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Sir, must I be quite honest with you?

UNKNOWN: Yes.  We want nothing else here in this court.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I can't find, this is the Truth and Reconciliation 
Committee, I can't find anger in my gut when I look at that man, but 
today I must be, with due respect to you, I am very angry at you the 
way you handled things yesterday, I was very angry.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I was very, very angry Sir.  Like you  
mentioned, when you stated that I wasn't on the scene.  And yet 
today you read to me another statement where it actually mentions 
that the brother was in the restaurant and colleagues.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: How come you overlooked something like that?

UNKNOWN: Because Mr Cerqueira, must I give you an 
answer?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes, please.

UNKNOWN: On the first part of being angry with me, I feel 
sorry for you, okay and I forgive you.  Are you a Christian?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I am.

UNKNOWN: Aren't you taught to forgive?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Sir, what I am taught and what I am not taught, 
has got nothing to do with you.

UNKNOWN: How long have you been in this country?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Are you a Christian Sir?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to put a stop to this kind of questions.

UNKNOWN: Mr Cerqueira, I put to you what the Judge had 
summarised and what was said in a court of law under oath.  This 
statement in here means absolutely nothing.  This is not under oath 
and it is not signed by Mr Brode.
	Are you still saying that I was unfair not to put that to you?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Sir, when you ask me questions about Mr 
Brode, I think you are very unfair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse, what a witness' opinion is of 
Counsel, is a matter of no concern to the Committee.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Mr Harmse, I am not interested in Mr Brode's 
... (intervention)

UNKNOWN: It is Arendse, okay, Arendse, not Harmse.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Mr Arendse, I am not interested in Mr Brode's 
statements.  I came here ...

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I must object at this line of ... 
(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I am going to stop these proceedings for a while 
Mr Arendse, if it is necessary.  I've told you once before please get 
on with the facts and not your personal differences or his differences 
towards you. 
You've got to take whatever he says.  If he is unhappy with the way 
you've questioned him, please you are doing your duty as Counsel, 
but don't involve in argument about that.  Carry on with your 
questions Mr Arendse.

UNKNOWN: Mr Cerqueira, I want to suggest to you, I want 
to put it to you that because you are angry, angry at me, angry at 
the applicants, angry ... (intervention)

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I am not angry at the applicants Mr Arendse, I 
am angry at you.

UNKNOWN: Well, now that you are angry at me, I want to 
suggest to you and put it to you that because of your anger, you 
don't like to hear that there is a possibility that your brother may 
have had a firearm and may have shot at the applicants, at one of the 
applicants as he says he did.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Mr Arendse, I am not saying there isn't a 
possibility, there is always a possibility of 1001 things that could 
have happened.  What I said to you is that when I got to the body, 
there was no gun.  I didn't see the gun.	Mr Brode came and sat 
next to us on the pavement, he didn't see any gun and a little while 
later, he only produced the gun.  Therefore Sir, with due respect, I 
think ask Mr Brode where he got the gun.  I don't know where he 
got the gun.  He might have got it in the restaurant at a later stage, 
I don't know.	But yes, there is a possibility, there is 1001 
possibilities.

UNKNOWN: Can I just ask you again.  It seems odd to us 
that, is me and my colleague, that after the attackers are gone, a gun 
is produced.   For what reason can that possibly be?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, with respect, this question has been 
asked again and again in several ways.  Answers have been given and 
the Committee has already given a ruling for Mr Arendse to move 
off onto something fresh.  I must now object and ask for a final 
ruling on this particular aspect.

UNKNOWN: I will leave it there.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed with the next question Mr Arendse.

UNKNOWN: Mr Cerqueira, when you came out ... 
(intervention)

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Sorry, it is Mr Cerqueira.

UNKNOWN: Cerqueira right.  When you moved back in, you 
pulled Mr Brode in, the other waiter came in with you, your brother 
didn't come in with you?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No, Sir.  I didn't see my brother, that is the 
reason why I came inside the restaurant, shouting for my brother.

UNKNOWN: Now, yes, because when you came out, your 
brother was already outside, he must have been outside?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No, he was not outside.  There were only three 
of us standing outside, Mr Arendse.

UNKNOWN: But I thought you said you came outside to look 
for your brother?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: No Sir, I said I came inside again looking for 
my brother.

JUDGE WILSON: He did not say that Mr Arendse.  He said they 
came outside to look at the noise, the source of the noise.

UNKNOWN: I said I thought he said that.  Can the witness 
correct me Judge, instead of you please.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think ... (intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: No, Mr Arendse, as Counsel you must put things 
accurately.

UNKNOWN: I put it accurately, I said I thought, now if I 
thought wrongly, then he must tell me that.

JUDGE WILSON: I am telling you you thought wrongly and you 
will accept that ruling and you will stop carrying on as you are Mr 
Arendse.  My brother the Chairman, has already offered to adjourn 
the matter so that you can quieten down.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Do you want an answer from that Sir?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: The only time that I went outside, looking for 
my brother, was after the shots had been fired.  After we had been in 
the restaurant, looking for him and then we ran outside, and then I 
found him outside.  Not before the shots had been fired.
	Before the shots had been fired, I went into the restaurant, 
not outside, into the restaurant, looking for my brother.

UNKNOWN: So at which point could he have been shot?  Was 
it before or after you came out?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: I've got no idea.  I've got no idea.

JUDGE WILSON: If he had been shot before, when you went out 
of the restaurant for the first time and looked up the road, would 
you have seen his body?

FRANCISCO CERQUEIRA: Yes.  He was definitely not on the pavement 
when I went outside for the first time, when the shots were being 
fired at us.