Human Rights Violation Hearings — Welkom — 1996-10-08

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Thanks a lot.  That is helping us to understand what really happened.  Now, your son's name was Patrick Boro Magubane.  Is that true?

WITNESS:   That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did your son belong to any political organisation?

WITNESS:   No, Sir, he wasn't ... (inaudible) ... he was very young to be involved in a political organisation.  He just followed the old men that we going to investigate the house that had been burnt.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know who burnt this house which they were investigating?

WITNESS:   I do not know who burnt the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Was your son alone when he went there to investigate the burning of the house?

WITNESS:   I do not know who went with him.  He wasn't alone.  There were many.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is this Pakathi?

WITNESS:   I only knew him as Pakathi.  He used to reside in Tabong but he ... (inaudible) ... away.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he belong to any political grouping himself, do you know?

WITNESS:   I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Mama, here in your statement you have stated that Pakathi belonged to a vigilante group which was very notorious.  What group was that?

WITNESS:   (Inaudible) ... councillors.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he notorious with his other fellow councillors or they were just people who worked with him?

WITNESS:   He was notorious.  He used to harass the community. Were there any other people who were working with him?   ---   Yes, he had his group.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you still remember some of the people who worked with him?

WITNESS:   Yes, I know some of them.  I know  ... (inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Where are they now, Mama?

WITNESS:   I don't know where are they ... (inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Before did they live here in Welkom.

WITNESS:   I don't see them any more.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mama, you said here, after Pakathi had killed your son there was a letter of apology he sent you.  Is that true?

WITNESS:   It wasn't a letter.  We went to the court of law.  He never sent me a letter.  The case was presented and the magistrate's answer was that there would be a conversation because it was a mistake for Pakathi to shoot my son dead.  And I said, if it was a mistake why didn't Pakathi come to me to express his feelings.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Pakathi ever convicted by our courts for killing your son?

WITNESS:   No, he was never convicted.  I only saw him on the day of the court and we left together on the same day.  I never saw him go to gaol.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the name of the magistrate who was dealing with that case?  The one that said Mr Pakathi should apologise for you.

WITNESS:   I do not know the magistrate's name.  I'm sorry, I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: What court was it ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   I didn't have any documents with me.  My husband had all the documents.  I don't know what to do now because my husband has passed away.

CHAIRPERSON: You've just said Pakathi's now dead.  What killed  him.  Was it natural death or ... (incomplete)

WITNESS:   I do not know.  I only heard rumours that he was assaulted at the Themba location.   Apart from that, I don't really know exactly what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: You have spoken also about Captain Hobo.  Where is Captain Hobo?

WITNESS:   I do not know.  I recently went to the police station to ask where he was.  They said they did not know his whereabouts.

CHAIRPERSON: Does the station commander of the police station at Welkom not know where he is?

WITNESS:   No, I was just asking, enquiring.  I didn't specifically go to the station commander.  I was asking people who work at the police station to tell me where he was and they said they did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Anyway we've got to go there and ask if we want him.  Were you given a death certificate for your son's death?

WITNESS:   Not even an indiction, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: There was not a certificate?

WITNESS:   Nothing, Sir.  I never saw the death certificate with my eyes.  Yesterday I went to the Commissioner's office to try and get one but I couldn't get hold of one.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you working?

WITNESS:   I am unemployed.

CHAIRPERSON: You just said that you had three children.  Are they in school?

WITNESS:   No, the are married.  They have their families now.  I'm staying alone.

CHAIRPERSON: How do you support yourself, Mama?

WITNESS:   I don't know.  I'm really battling.  Sometimes I go to bed without any food.   (Witness weeps)

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible) ... Mama, I know the pain you're suffering.  You said your husband died.  Was your husband sick when he died?

WITNESS:   (Transcriber's note:   /Channel

CHAIRPERSON: Channel used by interpreter now functioning.)  Yes, he was sick.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he working anywhere?

WITNESS:   Yes, he was working.

CHAIRPERSON: When he died did you get anything from his employers?

WITNESS:   Yes, I got something, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Which was not much?

WITNESS:   No, Sir, it wasn't that much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  I was very sorry to hear your story, Mama.  It is just unfortunate that the station commander did not co-operate and help you and also that the magistrate, who knew the killer of your husband, was not persuaded to arrest him and try him before the courts of the law.  Now, I'm going to ask some of my colleagues if they have got any questions they want to pose.

MRS GCABASHE: I greet you Mrs Chaka.  I only have just one question.  How old was Patrick at the time of his death?  I was just asking how old was Patrick at the time of his death.

WITNESS:   He was 15 years old.

MRS GCABASHE: Was he schooling?

WITNESS:   Yes.

MRS GCABASHE: The ones that you have said they are married, were they married at the time of this incident or they were not married?  Were they staying with you?

WITNESS:   Yes, they were staying with me at home.

MRS GCABASHE: How were they affected?

WITNESS:   Patrick's death really affected them.

MRS GCABASHE: What did you see that you would say they were affected?

WITNESS:   Patrick was the only boy among - they were so lonely because Patrick was the only boy.  They only had one brother.

MRS GCABASHE: Was he not as school at that time?

WITNESS:   They  were still at school.

MRS GCABASHE: How do you feel now?

WITNESS:   I'm not well.  I'm sick.

MRS GCABASHE: If you say you are not well, what do you mean?

WITNESS:   I am sick.

MRS GCABASHE: What illnesses do you have?

WITNESS:   I'm always dizzy and I'm always fatigued.

MRS GCABASHE: Have you been to the doctor?

WITNESS:   Yes, and the doctor said I had high blood pressure.

MRS GCABASHE: What else?

WITNESS:   I do not sleep at night.  I'm so scared.

MRS GCABASHE: Haven't you consulted the traditional doctors or the ... (incomplete)

WITNESS:   No, I've never been to such doctors.

MRS GCABASHE: You said you're not working.  Do you get pension?

WITNESS:   No.

MRS GCABASHE: Do you have any request from the Commission?

WITNESS:  I don't really know what to ask from the Commission.  Only the Commission knows what I need.  I don't know really what should I ask from you.

MRS GCABASHE: Thank you very much.  We have listened to your story.  Are you still attending the doctor?

WITNESS:   I don't have money to go to the doctor.

MRS GCABASHE: Are there no clinics around this area where you can go free?  (Side A ends.  Side B commences mid-sentence with no overlap)

CHAIRPERSON: ...  Mr Dlamini?

MR DLAMINI: Thank you, Mama, just one question.  Can you still remember the name of the investigating officer, the detective who investigated the death of your son?

WITNESS:   I can't remember the name, Sir.

MR DLAMINI: /CHAIRMAN