Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-21

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: It could have been possible, the usual policy was that if there were problems in an area, there would be persons or comrades from other areas who would be requested to come and assist depending on how serious the matter was.  When they arrived, they already knew that there were people who had come to attack the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair. ... (tape ends) ...

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I only learnt of it later.

MS THABETHE: Is it correct that he was petrol bombed or petrol was sprayed on top of his body and he was burnt?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you asking him to give a hearsay evidence?

MS THABETHE: I will withdraw the question then, Madam Chair.   My last question to you Mr Cele is ...

MR MALAN: I think you may phrase that question in a different way, did anyone tell you how Amos Cele was killed?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I only heard that he was dead, but with regards to how he was killed, nobody explained to me.

MR MALAN: And you never asked?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: At that time, there was no specific person that I could have asked because I heard about it when I arrived home in the evening.

MR MALAN: I understood or I understand that Amos Cele was your grandfather?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: Your grandfather dies and you don't ask how he came to his death?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: He did not reside at the area at the time of his death, his house had already been burnt.

MR MALAN: When was he killed?

CHAIRPERSON: On the 28th.

MR MALAN: On the 28th, three days later?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, I think so.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair, I think something arose out of the applicant's evidence that I would like to follow up.  You have stated that he wasn't staying at his house any more because his house was burnt down.  My instructions are that there was one house, there was one hut that remained and actually Amos Cele stayed in that house and when he was killed, he was taken out of that hut.  Would you know anything about this?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, I do not have any knowledge thereof.

MS THABETHE: Would you dispute this that when the house was burnt, not all the huts were burnt, there was one hut ...

MR MALAN: Ms Thabethe, we really can't follow because you are not following the interpretation and we don't get the answers.  You follow up and the Interpreter is not interpreting to us, please if you will follow the interpretation too.

MS THABETHE: I apologise Honourable member of the Committee.  Where would you like me to begin?

MR MALAN: The question was put to you that the instructions are that Amos stayed in the one house in the kraal that was not burnt, he was taken out of that house and killed.  The question was put, would you dispute that, we haven't heard your answer.

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I do not have any knowledge thereof.  All that I know is that the house was burnt and nobody remained there.

MR MALAN: I understood you earlier to say that your house was next to Amos' house, the place where you lived?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MR MALAN: In the same kraal, the same area?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: It is not the same kraal, but opposite.

MR MALAN: But you did not see him in his kraal, for the next three days, you never saw him again?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: No, I did not.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MS THABETHE: My last question to you Mr Cele is, was it necessary to kill Dudu Ngcobo and Amos Cele?

MR MALAN: I think he already on Amos said that he did not believe that he should have been killed, that it was wrong.

MS THABETHE: I will rephrase my question then, was it necessary to kill Dudu Ngcobo?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: On that day or ...

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, shouldn't you rephrase that question so as to assist this Committee to reach a just and equitable decision, having regard to the requirements of the Act which speaks to one having to determine whether an act is an act associated with a political objective, pertinently, whether any political objective was achieved or what political objective would have been achieved through the killing of Dudu Ngcobo?

MS THABETHE: I will try Madam Chair.  Mr Cele, in your evidence you have given that Dudu Ngcobo was killed because the comrades had given an order that she be killed.  My question to you is, why was it necessary or was it necessary, to kill Dudu Ngcobo in your opinion?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Why?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Because she had been with the people who had come to attack, the decision to kill them, did not limit itself to Dudu, but to everybody else who had been in the area to attack.

MS THABETHE: What was political about that?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Our intention was to eliminate or to drive away the people who had come to attack our area, such that they would be unable to return and do the same thing.

MS THABETHE: And by killing Dudu Ngcobo, did you achieve this objective?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Please repeat that.

MS THABETHE: By killing Dudu Ngcobo, did you achieve that objective?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: At that time, I did not know whether these people had come in collusion or under her intentions, but all I can say is that the plan to kill her, was not limited just to Dudu, but to everybody else.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabethe.  Mr Molohlanye, do you have any re-examination?

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes Chairperson, I have only one question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may do your re-examination.

MR MOLOHLANYE: You said comrades from Amadiqwe came to your area, is that so?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Amadiqwe, is that a neighbouring area or is it a place far from Manyaseni?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: It is a neighbouring area, I can walk from Manyaseni to Amadiqwe on foot.

CHAIRPERSON: Actually, when he was giving his evidence in chief, he estimated that it would be a distance of from here to Durban station, unfortunately we are not familiar with this place ourselves, and we would need to get an approximation.  Can Ms Thabethe and yourself assist this Committee by estimating how far that is?

MS THABETHE: Approximately four kilometres.

MR MALAN: May I just follow up on this, asking how long would it take you to walk from where you lived, to Amadiqwe?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: I cannot be certain, but if I were to walk casually, it would take me about 45 minutes to an hour.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR MOLOHLANYE: So, Amadiqwe was not very far from Manyaseni as you made us to understand, it was one of the surrounding areas around your area?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, it was one of the neighbouring areas.

MR MOLOHLANYE: In your examination in chief, you mentioned that there were already fights between the IFP and ANC members in the surrounding areas?

CHAIRPERSON: But not in Manyaseni?

THULANI PERCIVAL CELE: Yes, there were political killings.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Molohlanye, I hope you bear in mind his evidence because it was quite crystal clear that there was no political conflict at Manyaseni which is his area, but that there were some political conflicts in the other neighbouring areas, but not at Manyaseni which is where this incident took place.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Yes Chairperson.  What I wanted to know from the applicant is whether in Amadiqwe, were there any such political uprisings, that means fights between IFP and the ANC?

CHAIRPERSON: What bearing it has in relation to the offences for which he is seeking amnesty, I fail to understand, but I will allow the re-examination.

MR MOLOHLANYE: Please answer the question Mr Cele.