Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-23

J A STEYN: Chairperson, I cannot remember why I did not do it and if I discussed it with Botha or not, because I think that Botha also gave evidence that he did not do it either, if I can remember correctly.  My only solution that I have and my only answer, not solution, is that the thought had been that we have these people in place, there was no order to arrest, it was just for observation and to gain as much information as possible.

MR WILLS: Possibly I might suggest to you that you knew at this stage that the negotiation process had reached a level where it was unlikely that anybody was going to really suffer as a result of your action and I'm talking about the people you were observing, the ANC comrades involved in Vula and that you wanted to make sure that they had as hard a time as possible and you were hoping that they would be arrested.

J A STEYN: No, Chairperson, our aim was to gain information, as much as possible information.

MR LAX: Well you see, you have one problem now and that is, Botha's evidence is by this time, on the way back from Pretoria, you informed him that nobody would be arrested.  You already knew at that stage on your way back from Pretoria not that nobody would be arrested, that there would be no prosecutions and that whatever arrests there were would come to nought.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, if I can just be fair to the witness, according to the evidence that I recall the decision about the no prosecutions was on the 13th, which was a couple of days later.

MR LAX: Except that then Botha's mistaken, if that is the case, because he gave two different versions of when he was informed.  One version is that he was informed by you on his way back from Pretoria on the plane, on that very Friday afternoon.

J A STEYN: Chairperson, as far as I can remember, on the 13th I told Botha that there would probably not be any investigation.  I know  the other version...(intervention)

MR LAX: And it exists in your first affidavit as well.  But that's not what his evidence before us was at one point and I made a very careful note because it struck me at the time as quite strange.  But let's carry on.  I just thought I'd put that to you as a problem.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Now, you have this high-level meeting, you know that you're sitting on a hot potato, what did you do when you got back to Durban?

J A STEYN: At which occasion was this Chairperson?

MR WILLS: Sorry, let me withdraw that.  I'll just start with something else.  It's clear from Botha's evidence that you returned to Durban on the 11th, do you agree with that?

J A STEYN: I think that is correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now when you returned to Durban on the 11th, what did you do?

J A STEYN: Chairperson, I cannot remember exactly what I did at that stage.  The investigation was under way.  I cannot say exactly.  I also had other tasks to do.  Botha handled the thing, so I cannot exactly say.

J A STEYN: Did you not call key players in your operation together and give them feedback of the importance of this information, or of this operation that they were investigating?

J A STEYN: Certain people had already been in place who were busy with the investigation, Chairperson and they were aware of this.

MR WILLS: How were they made aware of this?

J A STEYN: Botha had to tell them all this, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Botha told me that he only met with them on his return from Pretoria.

J A STEYN: I accept that this is when he informed the members.

MR WILLS: Did you not tell Botha to do anything specific?

J A STEYN: Chairperson, I can accept that I told him to continue with the investigation, do everything that is possible so that we can get this matter to a point, so that we can get the best out of this matter.  Yes, we had to discuss the matter, but in finer details, after all these years, I cannot remember or say exactly what I had told to whom at which stage.

MR WILLS: When did you first become aware of Nyanda's arrest?

J A STEYN: On the 7th, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: He was arrested on the 12th.

J A STEYN: I beg your pardon, on the 12th.  If I remember correctly, it wasn't long after the arrest.

MR WILLS: Well, can you remember what time that was?

J A STEYN: No, I cannot remember, but I would say that it was shortly after the arrest.

MR WILLS: Now, I know it's Mr Botha's evidence, but is it also your evidence that Nyanda was the first of these persons to be arrested?

J A STEYN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: And Mr Chairperson, I must apologise to my colleague for not putting this to Mr Botha but it's only come to my light subsequently, in fact this morning, that I'm instructed that the first person that was arrested was Mr Gordhan and Mr Onash Sancar, they were arrested before Mr Nyanda.

J A STEYN: Chairperson, I am not aware of this.  I did not know this, if this had been the case.

MR WILLS: Well, is it not the case that if this is true then this theory that you've been wanting the Committee to believe, that Nyanda's attempt to escape precipitated his arrest, would in fact be untrue.

J A STEYN: Yes, but I was not aware of any arrests, as far as I knew Nyanda was the first person to be arrested.

MR WILLS: Now I think it's common cause among the parties that Nyanda's arrest occurred at approximately midday on the 12th.

J A STEYN: I remember it like that, if it is correct.

MR WILLS: Now other people were arrested right up until late at night.

J A STEYN: That is correct.  After Nyanda had been arrested, other people had also been arrested.

MR WILLS: Why didn't you put a stop to those arrests, in line with the instruction that you had received?

J A STEYN: Chairperson, after the first person had been arrested it would have been impossible, the message would then have spread and people would have fled.  Safe-houses would be evacuated and so forth.

MR WILLS: But who did you discuss this with when Nyanda was arrested?  What was the first thing you did when you heard that Nyanda was arrested?

J A STEYN: I cannot remember, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: There's no evidence before the Committee either in your affidavit or in your evidence in chief that you phoned anybody senior about this arrest, until, the only time you did anything about that was the following day, the 13th when you flew to Pretoria, with Botha.

J A STEYN: I probably at some stage of that day, I can't remember exactly when, made an arrangement to go to Pretoria to go and report these new events.

MR WILLS: Yes, but what I'm suggesting and what I cannot believe about your testimony in this regard, with respect Mr Steyn, is that you've got this high-level instruction not to arrest and even if your version is true, which we don't believe it is, even if it is true, the moment you had heard of Nyanda's arrest you would have immediately phoned your seniors in Pretoria and said, "What do we do now?"

J A STEYN: Chairperson, I already said that I probably did speak to Headquarters because I made an arrangement, I made a meeting, I said this.

MR WILLS: This is new evidence now.  The first time you're mentioning this.

J A STEYN: I answered just now Chairperson that in all probability I had spoken to someone because I had to arrange a meeting with Headquarters.

CHAIRPERSON: It's one thing to report to Headquarters, it's another thing to phone up and say, "Will the General be available for a consultation tomorrow morning?  Can I see him at 11 o'clock?"  Can you tell us which you did?

J A STEYN: I would have contacted one of the senior members at Head Office to arrange for a meeting the next day.

MR WILLS: So your evidence is that you just phoned to make an arrangement for a meeting, but you didn't disclose the fact that this high-level order had been broken as a result of circumstance?

J A STEYN: I probably said it, but I can't remember exactly what I said.