Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-08

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes, I am being confused by what you are saying. The witness says what werewe fighting for? He's referring to PASO and COSAS. Now you say yes, we wantto know what you are fighting for, but that is not in the spirit of your principalquestion. Your principal question is that there was no conflict between youand COSAS.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Well that is correct, that's what I wanted to get from him, that's what I wantedto get from him that there was no conflict between those two organisations atthat time.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Then you can't say what were you fighting for if he says there was no fightingbetween them.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: I understood him to ask me the question what were they fighting for, maybe Imisheard him.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You tried to know - you must first understand what he means thereby before takingit further.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Well I understood that I wasn't, it wasn't a situation where I answered hisquestions, it was the other way round Judge.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well let's try again.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps you can ask him at that time was there common cause between your organisationand COSAS?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: You've heard what Judge Mall has just put, can you answer that please.

MR NOFEMELA: Will you please ask the question.

CHAIRPERSON: At that time was there common cause between your organisation and COSAS?

MR NOFEMELA: As I have said the only thing that we were combined with PASO is the strugglethat we were fighting for.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: And what was that, what was the struggle that you were fighting for?

MR NOFEMELA: The only thing that caused us to fight or to be in struggle not to pay the schoolfees, the SADTU teachers to be recognised and that PASO wanted the land to goto the Black people.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: And what did you think the killing of Amy Biehl, what effect would the killingof Amy Biehl have had in regard to that struggle relating to land coming backto the people?

MR NOFEMELA: What's the question exactly?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: You have told the Committee that your struggle, amongst other things, was toget land back to the people, is that correct?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes it's correct.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: What effect would the killing of Amy Biehl have had in regard to that aspectof your struggle?

MR NOFEMELA: Is it the question that what's the killing of Amy Biehl is it made an effectto the killing, to the bringing back to the land?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Yes.

MR NOFEMELA: I do understand that even today we are also talking about changes, changes thathappened.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Will you try and speak a little louder, I can't hear you from here, and I don'tknow if you have a problem with the translation, and if you do have a problemwill you please just alert us to that. Do you understand what is being translatedto you properly?

MR NOFEMELA: No I don't get the question clearly and the Interpreters are very soft.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes. Now if you do experience such problems will you please just raise themup with your counsel and advise that you do not understand the translation.Also will you also turn up the volume on your head phones.

MR NOFEMELA: It's okay now.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Can you hear me clearly?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Miss Gozo, sorry, because you understand both languages, English and Afrikaans,we will assume, unless you indicate otherwise, we will assume that you are satisfiedwith the quality of the interpretation which, with all due respect as far asI am concerned, on some areas I am not.

ADV GOZO COMMITTEE: Yes Justice Ngoepe I was still looking, my view was that that question neededto be broken down. There was a question of understanding what the exact questionwould be.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: I will put it again. The aims of PASO, you told us, were,
1.	torender the country ungovernable and,
	2.	toget land, owned by the Whites back to your people,
am I correct in thinkingthat was the policy of PASO?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I think in addition to that he said that non-payment of exam fees and the factof the recognition of teachers were issues as well.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Yes. How did you think the killing of Amy Biehl would bring about PASO's objectivesin the two respects I have mentioned?

MR NOFEMELA: That's what we believed in, that the country will go back to the Africans.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: But what was your objective in murdering Amy Biehl?

MR NOFEMELA: I've already mentioned my objective and I was one of PASO's members. What PASOwas involved in I was also involved.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Do you accept that the ANC and COSAS had White members?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes but only one member.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Well, there were more than one member, there was more than one member of theANC certainly, wouldn't you agree?

MR NOFEMELA: No I am sorry I don't know that. I only said there was only one member I knew.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: I am asking you whether you as a, if I may put it this way, a junior politician,were aware of the fact that the ANC had a fairly substantial membership consistingof White people?

ADV GOZO COMMITTEE: Mr Chair may I interject to that question, I think that question has been answered,he knew only of one.

CHAIRPERSON: It's being put to him that he ought to have known more, he's a junior politician.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Can you answer that please Mr Nofemela.

MR NOFEMELA: There was only one member I knew from the ANC which was White.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: You went to a school named after the late Joe Slovo.

MR NOFEMELA: I went there whilst it was Mvusi Mvusi, it was changed to Joe Slovo after Iwas there.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Oh I see. Did you know about Joe Slovo?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Did you know about Ronnie Kasrils?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Did you know about Karl Niehaus?

MR NOFEMELA: No.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Never heard of him?

MR NOFEMELA: No.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Alright. Did you know what Mr Kasrils looked like?

MR NOFEMELA: I can't remember.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Did you know what Mr Joe Slovo looked like?

MR NOFEMELA: I can't clearly remember.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: So it's not possible for you to say if either Mr Kasrils or Mr Slovo, the lateMr Slovo had been in Guguletu that afternoon you would have killed them?

MR NOFEMELA: What's your question exactly?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Well perhaps I won't press this, I don't think he understands. What I reallywant to know is that had you known that the late Amy Biehl was a comrade ora supporter of the comrades would you have killed her?

MR NOFEMELA: Yes.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Why would you have killed her if you had known that she was an ally of yours,a friend of your movement?

MR NOFEMELA: It's because during that time my spirit just says I must kill the White.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: So you would have killed any White, even if such White had been a member ofthe ANC, the South African Communist Party, AZAPO or even the PAC?

MR NOFEMELA: If I know that person I wouldn't have killed.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: But such person was White.

MR NOFEMELA: Yes I know.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: So why wouldn't you have killed that person?

MR NOFEMELA: During the apartheid era it's because what we were doing or what we were involvedin it's because we were in high spirits and violent.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Well was it your own view then that you had to go out and kill White peopleor a White person merely because of the colour of their skin and regardlessof what their political views might have been even if such political views werethe same as yours?

MR NOFEMELA: During those days we were told to assist APLA. What I knew and what I believedin is that if you are killing a White person it's how we are going to get ourland back to the Africans.

CROSSBY MR BRINK: So you tell the Committee as Mr Peni did as I understood his evidence, thatthe killing of a young, unarmed woman would help to bring back the land?