Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1999-02-24

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: We started with Magwaza, and we did not find him at his shop.  Thank you, I had made a mistake there.  And from the shop we took a direction towards Sithole's place.  Before we arrived at Sithole's house, we, Sithole actually came in the company of Zwane and Mpongosi and Sithole's boy, as well as another boy called Mbuso.  He was a leader of the Inkatha youth brigade.  And when we met them these other people stood behind Sithole and Sithole came to the fore and asked, or should I say my brother asked Sithole as to whether he had heard that Mpongosi had attacked people at Maloesi's shebeen.  Sithole denied knowledge of that.
At that time Mpongosi was present.  Zwane and Mbuso, as well  as Sithole's son, had firearms.  Sithole did not have a firearm.  Mpongosi did not have a firearm.  All of these had these handguns.  When Sithole arrived denying knowledge of that my brother said, "...Yes, that is exactly the reason why we are here, we wanted us to inform you about the fact that they had threatened people, saying they are coming back and they will shoot them when they get back.  And they threatened to shoot any ANC member within the area."  Sithole then said to Dastile, "...Go and talk to the ANC people, I, Sithole, will go and talk to IFP members."  He was saying that because my brother said, "...Sithole let us please stop this.  Let it not continue, because many places are faced with violence and should this start it will never stop."  That is why it was agreed that he should talk to the ANC and the other one to the IFP.  
And when we went to the ANC, and at that time I must point out that people had gathered at the ANC office, worrying about the threats. We came to address the people about that.  My brother actually was the one who was to address them on that matter.  And as he was addressing them people said, "...This is not an empty threat.  It looks like Inkatha are intent on doing something today."  My brother said Sithole will not allow that to happen.  And after Dastile had addressed the people, the people seemed to understand and he had to go back to Sithole to report back, because he was, Sithole that is, was going to talk to the IFP and they had to report back to each other.  And Dastile was again delegated, together with his deputy Caswell Tchala, they were delegated to go and talk to Sithole and establish as to how this can be resolved.  I volunteered to accompany them so that I could be the third person.  I wanted to hear this myself.
	And on our way, or just before we left, many people said, "...You cannot go there alone, we will rather accompany you to hear everything ourselves."  And my brother said, "...That is not a good idea, it will look like we are fighting."  And people were running, carrying their weapons, and it was indicated that if that is the case let us leave our weapons behind.  Indeed people agreed, and we started walking.  We were, there was a distance of about 20 metres between ourselves and the group that was following us.  And as we were approaching Brown's place, we suggested that my brother should go ahead and be in the front that he could be seen by Sithole.  And as he was going down, my brother suggested to me that I should stop the people before they could reach Brown's place.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Sorry, will you tell us, you reached at that stage, you and your brother had reached Brown's, next to Brown's shack, that is just before the sports field.  Is that right?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: That is correct.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Now you say that you said to your brother he must go ahead, and he had asked you to ask the people to wait at that particular place, is that correct?  Is that what you're saying, sorry sir.

MR LAX: That's what he said.

AZHAR CACHALIA: What I want to know is, what, did you see Sithole, was he around at that time when you told your brother to go ahead?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: No, Sithole had not yet appeared.  There was a dustbin from the shacks towards the sports field and on the other side of two lines of the shacks there was Magwaza's place.  There were people who were standing there, singing political songs, and they were standing next to this very big rubbish bin, and he created an opportunity to be seen.  And we saw this very huge throng of IFP people approaching, and they went up towards the position where we were standing next to Brown's place.  And our people started shouting, or calling at Dastile, telling him to come back because these people are fighting.  That is when our people were attacked, and that is when women started going up towards the TPA offices.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Sorry, sorry, you're going too fast.  You and your brother and other people walked in front and there was a group behind you and you came up to the Brown's place and Mr Sithole and the throng of people as you call them from IFP was somewhere near Magwaza's house, and they came towards you people.  Is that what you said?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Yes.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Where did they stop, or did they continue, or where was your brother in relation?  I just want to know you know precise details about that.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: When they came at the point where they stood my brother was not a distance away.  The IFP stood what could have been about 30 metres from my brother.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Were they on the sports field or were they not on the sports field?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: He was standing right on the sports field and this group was at the end of the grounds, just at the point where the shacks started towards Magwaza's place.

AZHAR CACHALIA: Who was on the sports field your brother Dastile?  Who was on the sports field, please tell me I'm sorry I don't want to make suggestions to you.

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: My brother was standing in the middle of the sports field, he left us and went to stand in the middle of the sports field waiting for Sithole to come and meet him.

AZHAR CACHALIA: And where was Sithole and was at Magwaza's place did they come up on the sports field or just to the edge of the sports field or what was the position?

SINDISILE WILFORD DASTILE: Sithole came with this other group of people which came to join the Inkatha youth at the big rubbish bin.  They joined together and they came as one big group.  That is when my brother was called, saying he should come back because these people are not coming in peace.

AZHAR CACHALIA: They came from the big dustbin and all that is that near the sports field sir?  That's all that I want to know or is it not near the sports field?  That IFP people that came there.

CHAIRPERSON: You said they were at the big dustbin and that the brother was 30 metres from them, so you know, if we know, it sounds close enough to me.  Can't be, and the brother was standing in the middle of the sports field, so.

MR LAX: And the dustbin is just near Magwaza's place, so I mean.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Cachalia just let Mr Dastile relate his version and then afterwards you can fill in the details what you want, because otherwise we're getting stop, start, we're losing a lot of time.

AZHAR CACHALIA: I will do that but I was just to indicate at this stage, alright, perhaps it's a better idea that you go and I will then indicate the positions of these various places later.  Please go ahead.