Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: No, I don'tthink so. Such a thing could not have happened. Let me explain. I don't thinkso because what I have learnt, before anything could happen, we would like toinvestigate first, so I don't think we will go to places where there is mostly

<UNKNOWN>: lack people.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Do did you assume that these investigationswere done and that the target was as you would have expected it to be, namelyWhite people?

CHAIRPERSON: He is just going to give you an opinion.

ADVARENDSE: I am asking for his opinion.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you are askingwhether he assumed, he assumed that? I don't think it is worth very much.

<UNKNOWN>: s you please Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, I would withdraw it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: assie, were you trained to use R4 rifles and M26 handgrenades,on how to use it?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes, I was trained to use R4 rifles andthe handgrenades.

NORMAN ARENDSE: I am just asking you this, because thatis the arms and ammunition used during the attack. Now my question is, you weretold on your evidence, on a very late stage that you are going to be part ofthe attack in the form of "security". Now my question is, were youinstead of for example Makoma, asked to go inside the church armed with a rifleand a handgrenade? If you had been ordered to do so, would you have done so?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes, we were working under instructions. I was trainedto use the R4 rifle and the handgrenade. If I was instructed to do so, I wouldn'toppose, I would just follow the instructions.

<UNKNOWN>: s an

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: operative at the time, why were you not told, informed what the targets wouldbe and who would the target be and so on?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: The only thingI can say is I was still a new

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: member, I was still in the premature stagesunder the training. Maybe I am just thinking, if they have told me, they wouldthink I would go and tell the police like to become an informer, sort of, sothat I can put my comrades in trouble, because things as such do happen. Thatis what I am thinking of.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, I have gotno further questions.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You are aware, aren't you that there was in some churches, there was apartheid?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: nd in fact in some churches, they didn'teven want

<UNKNOWN>: lack people to come in to worship in there, isn't that so?

BASSIE NZIKIZI MKHUMBUZI: Yes, it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much. Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rink, is thereany suggestion on your part as to whether we should carry on now?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: I don't know how long the, possibly if the next applicant could be led, it wouldprobably take a quarter of an hour to read his statement, to get that out ofthe way, but I am in your hands.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rendse, get done withhis statement. Ms Goza, can we proceed with the statement of the next witness?

MSGOZA: Yes, Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman. For the purposes of the record, I shall now proceedto read the second applicant's statement. "I, the undersigned Thobela Mlambisa,do hereby make oath and say that ..."

SISI KHAMPEPE: We don't havecopies Ms Goza of your affidavit.

MS GOZA: We apologise Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman andmembers of the

<UNKNOWN>: ommittee, we are quickly trying to make a copy available assoon as possible. We do apologise.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't have copies thereyet?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Sorry Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, it is my fault.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes,you may proceed.

MS GOZA: We do apologise, the events of the day are catchingup with us.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand. It is having its effect elsewhereas well. This will be handed in as
Exhibit

<UNKNOWN>: .

MS GOZA: "I,the undersigned Thobela Mlambisa, do hereby make oath and say that I have alreadyin connection with this application, I wish to make a further affidavit regardingmy participation in the St James church incident". Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, if at thisstage I may indicate that the first portion of that sentence relates to an affidavitthat the second applicant made relating to explaining that he had in fact forwardedhis application in (indistinct), which at the present moment cannot be found.That is what that first portion of that sentence refers to.

JUDGE WILSON: That is still not an application, you say it can't be found. Is there no applicationthen in respect of this applicant?

MS GOZA: I beg your pardon My Lord,my colleague is correcting me that it has been found. I do apologise, I wasnot aware.

JUDGE WILSON: I trust that it is going to be made availableto us some time.

MS GOZA: "Paragraph 2 - The facts to which I deposeare true and correct and within my personal knowledge, unless the context statesotherwise. Paragraph 3 - I have been a member of the Pan

<UNKNOWN>: frican

<UNKNOWN>: ongress, commonlyknown as the P

<UNKNOWN>: since 1989 and I have been a member of the

<UNKNOWN>: frican People'sLiberation

<UNKNOWN>: rmy, commonly known as

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: , since 1990 whilst I was still at school.I was recruited into

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: by Sichomiso Nonxuba, now deceased. Paragraph 4 -I grew up in the Kentani area and went to school there up to standard 10, whereI attended the Maqibe High School. I matriculated in 1990. Paragraph 5 - I hadbeen appointed as a unit

<UNKNOWN>: ommissioner in the Transkei where I was operatingfrom. Paragraph 6 - On the Tuesday before the incident took place, I got anorder from the late Mandla, also known as Mazala or Powa, the

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: hief ofLogistics in the Eastern

<UNKNOWN>: ape Region to come to

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town. I had never beforebeen to

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town. He gave me an address where to go to. I knew that I was comingto

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town on an

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: mission.

<UNKNOWN>: t the time, I did not know it was going tobe the St James church. I left Umtata on a

<UNKNOWN>: hilwan's bus, on the Wednesday andarrived in

<UNKNOWN>: ape Town on Thursday. I went to an address in Macassar and foundSichomiso Nonxuba and Makoma there. Nonxuba told me that my code name was

<UNKNOWN>: ubreyand introduced me to Makoma as

<UNKNOWN>: ubrey. I knew Nonxuba, but I was meeting Makomafor the first time. Nonxuba told me that I had been requested to come to

<UNKNOWN>: apeTown so that I could act as the driver during the operation.

<UNKNOWN>: t that stage hegave no details. Nonxuba and Makoma left me at this house in Macassar and returnedlater that night. They still did not tell me what the operation was about. Paragraph7 - On the Saturday before the Sunday when the incident took place, I met Nonxubaand Mkhumbuzi at the Iona shopping centre in Guguletu at approximately threeo'clock. There I was introduced to

<UNKNOWN>: assie. Nonxuba again told me that I wouldbe driving during the operation the following day, but gave me no details. Mytask was to hijack a car. I then went back to the house in Macassar. The nextday Makoma fetched me with a taxi and we went to the Uluntu community centrein Guguletu where we met Nonxuba and

<UNKNOWN>: assie. Nonxuba spoke as the

<UNKNOWN>: ommanderand said that we would be involved in an operation that day but he never mentionedwhat the target was going to be and when it was going to take place. However,he told me and Makoma that we were to get a car. We had to meet him at the Langataxi rank at 6 pm, that evening. Makoma and I then went to Guguletu where wesaw a Datsun motor vehicle, idling in the road. The driver came out of the houseand I approached him and asked him whether we could borrow the car and thatwe would return it. We told him that we were members of the P

<UNKNOWN>: and

<UNKNOWN>: PL