Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-15

WENDY ORR: Good morning to you sir, thank you very much for coming here today.  You're going to speak about someone who was a member  of your congregation.  Shall I say that  again, you're going to speak to us  today about someone who was a member of your congregation?

REV QUMZA: Yes.

WENDY ORR: And you're here because his mother is to old and frail to be here, so you are representing the family, is that correct?

REV QUMZA: Yes, ma'am.

WENDY ORR: [indistinct] and his oupa, welcome to you sir.  He's going to support you as you give your evidence.  Can I ask you to stand to take the oath please.
PHILEMON QUMZA  Duly sworn states

WENDY ORR: Thank you very much, I'll hand you over to the Reverent who will facilitate your evidence.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Chairperson, Rev Qumza I can see  [indistinct]  which congregations do you come from?

REV QUMZA: I'm a Reverent.

REV XUNDU: Which  congregation?

REV QUMZA: C.C.A.C.

REV XUNDU: Is that the elder of your church next to you?

REV QUMZA: No, he's my neighbour.

REV XUNDU: Thank you, these people are in your church?

REV QUMZA: Yes, he was in my church - he was a member of my church.

REV XUNDU: According to this report we are told of how he - Malusi died.  I wonder if you could briefly tell us what was happening in the township - what was the situation at the time.  Could you briefly tell us please?

REV QUMZA: Thank you sir, I will.
 First of all I would like to say at the time here in Mbekweni I was from Thabanshu from - from a - I was under Bishop Ian Motega who stays in Xhoxho.  When I left Mbekweni there was no unrest.  People were one in spirit, they were fighting - they had the same aim.  They were struggling to active freedom for their country.  I left midyear and when I came back there was division -  there were 2 organizations and people belonged to these opposing organizations.  
 When we got to Mbekweni, the police - there were some police that were called INKATHA.  There were soldiers - when you would enter the township it was very difficult because there were always roadblocks.  That was the situations - when you would leave the rent office there would be tear gas every where.  From the office to your house.

REV XUNDU: So you got to the location from Thabanshu and there was conflict between the 2 organizations?  Some were PAC, AZAPO, AZANYU and then  the UDF, is that so?

REV QUMZA: Yes, sir that is so.

REV XUNDU: And apparently the police were working with the PAC, AZAPO, AZANYU?

REV QUMZA: Yes, the police sided with the PAC, AZAPO, AZANYU.

REV XUNDU: Lets continue.  Mathelele Malusi  which organization did he belong to?

REV QUMZA: Mathelele Malusi was a person who was slightly mentally disturbed.  He had - he belonged to no organization as such.

REV XUNDU: So that particular night, could you briefly tell us how Malusi got injured.

REV QUMZA: Let me just tell you briefly.  We were going to have a meeting that we referred to as synod.  We were preparing for a conference - because of the State of Emergency at Mbekweni you had to be home by 7 o'clock.  You could not close either your front or your back door.  You had to leave them opened - there is an organizations referred to as UDF.  The police at the time were very busy running after our children.  You had to leave an opening in the toilet so that the police could see where you are.  
 We could not safe our children in our homes - they could not hide in our homes.

REV XUNDU: So what you are saying is that the police at that time had  no respect for human life?

REV QUMZA: Yes, that is so ...END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A...

REV XUNDU: [indistinct] evening of the incident?

REV QUMZA: We were preparing for the conference.  I therefore had to go to a place called Boere Centre in Paarl.  I went to Boere Centre - I first went to the Police Station to ask for a book.  I asked for a document so that people could attend the conference and not be turned away by the police and the soldiers.  We could not go to church, it our people were going to church, tear gas was thrown in.  So went to ask for special permission, I went to the Police Station, the Police Station sent to the Magistrate at Boere Centre.  I went to the Magistrate at Boere Centre - this - his office is - is on the Main Street.
 I got this document that I needed, I then came back with the document.  I asked myself that what should I do with this document.  Then they said that I must keep it with me all the time.  The Police Commander who will be handling the soldiers, I would know later because they would inform me later.

REV XUNDU: Lets go back to the incident where Malusi was killed.

REV QUMZA: The conference had not started, we were preparing for the conference.  When I came back I was out casted by the police that were called INKATHA.  I - I showed him the - the document, he then said he would speak to his team and that was that.  
 I then went to fetch members of my congregation to take them to church to the afternoon serves.  We were busy training people - we're preparing them for their positions in church.  When we came back on the Sunday, as I had taken people home I then took Mathelele Malusi to the home and as he got out of the car there were police - there were police in the church yard.  I was on the tar road, as I was on the road tear gas emanated - tear gas emanated from the church yard towards us.  
Then there is an area within the yard that called  [indistinct] .  The police were then really throwing tear gas all over.  As Malusi went inside the church and I was going into the car, tear gas got even worse.  I was taking everybody home - it was damaging our eyes.  I was rushing to - rushing delivering people at their homes.  When I came back I realized that as this man entered the house he was shot by a police - a Zulu policeman.

REV XUNDU: Is this the hostel?

REV QUMZA: Yes, this is the hostel where he lived.

REV XUNDU: Had he alighted from you car?

REV QUMZA: Yes, he'd alighted from my car.

REV XUNDU: According to your report, the police did not want anyone to help Malusi.

REV QUMZA: Yes, it is so.  He fell on the passageway and as he fell on the passageway - as I asked the people that stayed at the hostel - they were told that they should stay put, they should not move.  Everyone around Malusi was told not to move - not to help at all.

REV XUNDU: Do you know any names of these INKATHA  Police?

REV QUMZA: As the situation was it was impossible to identify the police.  As the police are numbered, I have got their specific numbers, I could not even identify this.  He was shot at half past 8.  He stayed there in that condition the whole night until the next morning half past 11 when a van - a police van came to fetch him at 1130 the next day.
 He had died by then.  We could not even look at the wound as he was laying on  [indistinct]

REV XUNDU: How old was Malusi?

REV QUMZA: He was pretty young at the time.  I should estimate that he was 22 years of age.

REV XUNDU: Was he working?

REV QUMZA: Yes, we had gotten him a job in a place called Klapmuts Concrete.

REV XUNDU: How long had he been working?

REV QUMZA: It was not to long but it was a while.

REV XUNDU: Was he married?

REV QUMZA: He was still dependent on his mother.

REV XUNDU: Did he have children?

REV QUMZA: He was still dependent on his mother, he did not have - he did not children.  He was working towards acquiring a wife.

REV XUNDU: Is the mother still alive?

REV QUMZA: Yes, the mother's still alive.

REV XUNDU: What - what is his mother's request as his son has passed away?