Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-15

MR LAX: Thank you Chair.  There was just one question.  I was puzzled by one of your answers to Mr Visser where you said that the letter that you got telling you that she was pregnant, was the first letter.  Those were the words that were translated, did I understand that correctly?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes.

MR LAX: So are you saying that before she fell pregnant, you didn't get other letters from her?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: I said this was the last and she wrote to us thereafter.

MR LAX: Yes.  But I've just asked you, was this the first letter?  You said yes.

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Mashiya, before Nomasonto fell pregnant, did she write to you?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes she wrote to us while she was in exile and told us that she was pregnant.

MR LAX: Sorry, I'm now even more puzzled because the question was before she became pregnant, did she write to you.  You said:  "Yes, she wrote to us when she became pregnant".  Did she write to you before she became pregnant, or was that the first letter you got from here?  That's what I'm trying to understand.

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Before she told us that she was pregnant, she sent us a Christmas Card.

MR LAX: And before the Christmas Card, had you had any other letters from her?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, we used to receive letters from her.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson, that just clarifies that for me.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lax.  Mr Sibanyoni.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I've got no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi, anything arising from questions from the Panel?

MR MALINDI: Nothing Chairperson.
NO FURTHER RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: No thank you Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: No thank you Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: ...(not translated)
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, I beg leave to call Thobeka Ngono.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, may I ask an indulgence?  May I ask for a short adjournment, a call of nature is just demanding some ...
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

THOBEKA MARTHA NGONO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Martha, that's the middle name, I did not get the surname.

MS NGONO: Ngono.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi, you may proceed.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson.

MR MALINDI: Ms Ngono are you related to Mbulelo Ngono?

MS NGONO: Yes.

MR MALINDI: Who is one of the people that disappeared in Lesotho and whose case is a subject of this hearing?

MS NGONO: That is correct.

MR MALINDI: How are you related to Mbulelo?

MS NGONO: I am his sister.

MR MALINDI: Can you tell the Committee when Mbulelo left home to go into exile, if you can remember?

MS NGONO: Mbulelo left in 1980.

MR MALINDI: Since 1980, after he left, was the family in a position to know where he was?

MS NGONO: Yes, we knew where he was.

MR MALINDI: How did you come to know?

MS NGONO: He wrote us a letter when he was in the Transkei and my mother paid him a visit.

MR MALINDI: Do you remember when that was?

MS NGONO: It was in 1985.

MR MALINDI: Was the family able to communicate with him in any other manner?

MS NGONO: My mother visited him in 1985 while he was in Transkei.

MR MALINDI: Was this the first communication between your mother and Mbulelo since he left in 1980?

MS NGONO: They used to phone each other.

MR MALINDI: Who used to phone who?

MS NGONO: My mother would phone Mbulelo.  I beg your pardon, Mbulelo would phone my mother.

MR MALINDI: And where would Mbulelo phone your mother?  Was Mbulelo phoning your mother at the house where your mother stayed?

MS NGONO: We never used to have a telephone, he would get a message from the house of a relative.

MR MALINDI: After ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, it was translated as "he would get a message from a house of a relative".

INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon, I was supposed to say she would get a message from the house of a relative where they used to communicate.

MR MALINDI: And are you able to tell the Committee over which period, in terms of years or months, this communication took place between Mbulelo and the family?

MS NGONO: He phoned in 1985, before my mother could pay him a visit.  I cannot remember the month.

MR MALINDI: And after 1985 when your mother saw him in the Transkei, was there any further communication?

MS NGONO: They again met in Lesotho.

MR MALINDI: Do you remember when that was?

MS NGONO: It was in 1987.

MR MALINDI: And was your mother alone when she went to see him in Lesotho?

MS NGONO: He was in my sister's company, Bukelwa Ngono.

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, may we correct the gender again, the translation came as "He was with my sister", it's supposed to be:  "she was with my sister."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, could we correct that for the record.  I'll switch over to English because I've been listening to Xhosa.  I'll also switch over to English.  Could you repeat that please, for the record.

MS NGONO: She went to visit my brother in Lesotho, my mother that is, she was in my sister's company.

MR MALINDI: Thank you Chairperson.  You yourself, did you ever speak to your brother directly, or meet him directly?

MS NGONO: In 1987 I was schooling in Lesotho, we used to meet.

MR MALINDI: ;   When did you go to Lesotho?

MS NGONO: January 1987.

MR MALINDI: Was that the first time, in 1987, that you met him directly?

MS NGONO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALINDI: Did you meet him only this once in 1987?

MS NGONO: No, we met more than once, up until September 1987, when I did not know where he had gone to.

MR MALINDI: And then after September 1987, was that the last time you saw him?

MS NGONO: I saw him again in February, the following year.

MR MALINDI: Was that 1988?

MS NGONO: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALINDI: When you saw him in February 1988, did he tell you if anything extra ordinary had happened to him?

MS NGONO: Yes, he told me, he came to my school, he told me that he had a narrow escape and he believed that he will never die again.

MR MALINDI: Did you know what he was referring to when he said he had a narrow escape and if he didn't die, he would never die again?

MS NGONO: He didn't explain in details.  I just assumed that he was in some kind of trouble.

MR MALINDI: Did he tell you that he was arrested by the South African Police or the South African Special Branch?

MS NGONO: No, he never mentioned that to me.

MR MALINDI: After you met him in February, did you hear anything again relating to him, or not?

MS NGONO: As I used to visit them frequently in Roma, they told me to stop visiting them after February, because the situation was tense there in Roma.  I remained where I was.  Lindelwa's sister came to me in March, telling me that Mbulelo was arrested.

MR MALINDI: Do you know Lindelwa's surname, the Lindelwa who came to tell you that Mbulelo has been arrested?

MS NGONO: Yes, I know, the surname is Mabece.

MR MALINDI: And do you know Lindelwa's sister's name?

MS NGONO: Yes, I know her name, her name is Nandipa.

MR MALINDI: Who did she say arrested Mbulelo?

MR VISSER: With all this hearsay evidence, Chairperson, I will expect at lest my Learned Friend to indicate to you that this person is going to be called.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the position Mr Malindi, because this has what has been related to her.  Are you going to call ...(indistinct)?

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, Lindelwa and Nandipa are some of the witnesses that we have not been able to make available for the hearing.  I will submit Chairperson, that this kind of hearsay evidence be allowed on the basis that I will lay through the witness, that these witnesses, we've been unable to make available to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser.