Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-29

UNKNOWN: In fact their capacity for conveying information to the outside world, was extremely limited if it existed at all, do you agree with that?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, it was limited.

UNKNOWN: So is it fair then to say Mr Van Rensburg, that if someone was in possession of information which you did not want conveyed to the outside world, detention was a reasonable and a viable alternative?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I wouldn't say that it was a hundred percent guarantee.  There were many cases in which people who were detained, were able to smuggle information out to the outside world.

UNKNOWN: So you were looking for a hundred percent guarantee?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, in certain circumstances, definitely.  In certain cases.

UNKNOWN: On how many occasions did Brigadier Gilbert phone you in respect of this incident?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Only on this one occasion.

UNKNOWN: He phoned you on one occasion and approximately how long would you say that telephone conversation lasted?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I am not exactly sure, it could have been a minute or two minutes, perhaps three.

UNKNOWN: Have you conveyed in your written application as we see it in the evidence you have given, everything which took place between you and Brigadier Gilbert, all the information that was conveyed to you in that conversation?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: As far as I can remember, yes.

UNKNOWN: And what was the, in your mind, what was the most important factor that justified or that Brigadier Gilbert gave you, which justified the preparation for the execution of these persons?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: As I put it that the black members were starting to work with friends, and that the situation created great problems.  That made me realise that these people could cause a great deal of damage if that happened, that they could convey information, they could expose a lot of things.

UNKNOWN: Did he give you any detail as to the great problems he spoke of?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, he didn't.

UNKNOWN: Did he give you any indication of the time period over which these members of the, your colleagues had been monitored in order to ascertain whether they were in fact doing what he said they were doing?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: He told me that it was extremely urgent, but he didn't elaborate further.

UNKNOWN: And you didn't enquire any further as to precisely what investigations had been conducted?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I didn't.

UNKNOWN: Now, the request as I understand it from your evidence Mr Van Rensburg, was that members from Vlakplaas who fell directly under you, were to be utilised in this operation for the execution of these persons, is that right?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: There was no mention of specific people, it was just Vlakplaas that was mentioned.  The request was for Vlakplaas to assist.

UNKNOWN: Yes, it was quite clear that members falling directly under you were going to be required to participate in this operation and you were going to have to give those orders?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: As the Head in charge, Head of Security, in charge in overall control of Vlakplaas as such, you were the logical person to go to, is that right?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And presumably in other operations emanating from Vlakplaas, where other operations of a similar nature were conducted, you would also have been the person to whom your operatives from Vlakplaas would go to seek authority, is that right?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.  That is what I would expect.

UNKNOWN: And if I understand your evidence, the authority for the execution for the elimination of persons, was not likely given, it was something which was considered at high level and considered seriously before authority was given?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Is the effect of your evidence then that from the time you were in charge of Vlakplaas all operations which took place from Vlakplaas, would have been authorised by yourself?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, any activities wherein Vlakplaas would be involved.  That is how I understood it.

UNKNOWN: Now, by the end of this conversation with Brigadier Gilbert, you were under no misapprehension or certainly you had formed the clear perception that what was required was an operation in which persons, colleagues, were to be killed, is that right?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that was the impression which I had.

UNKNOWN: And if I understand your evidence, because of the fact that it was on an open telephone line, you didn't make further enquiries at that stage?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: Now, when Mr Nieuwoudt, if we could just get the sequence of events quite clearly, precisely when was it that Mr Nieuwoudt came to see you?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: It was that morning.  I am not sure of the date, but Mr Gilbert phoned me and it was the next morning, six o'clock.

UNKNOWN: I see, and how long was this before the actual incident, the placing of the bomb and the explosion which took place?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I have nothing in writing, but if I can remember correctly, it was two or three days.

UNKNOWN: Is there something in this regard in writing, Mr Van Rensburg?  Did you make notes of this conversation?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I didn't.

UNKNOWN: I see, there is nothing in writing which you can refer to to ascertain precisely when this occurred?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

UNKNOWN: Now, in the light of the fact that you were to give the specific order to your operatives to participate in this operation, did you not feel it appropriate to also consult with the higher authority which Brigadier Gilbert had consulted with in order to confirm the order in this regard?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No, I didn't.

UNKNOWN: Once again, I ask you why?  Why not?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: I think I have already answered that question, but as I've said in my previous answer I remember correctly, I didn't deem it necessary because Gilbert was my senior.  He got clearance for this operation and as a result of the need to know basis on which we operated, I didn't think that it was necessary.

UNKNOWN: Now, do I understand your evidence that Mr Nieuwoudt arrived alone at your house?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: And precisely what did he tell you Mr Van Rensburg?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Sir, he told me of the black members of the Security Branch in Port Elizabeth were recruited by the ANC and had very sensitive information at their disposal which could be passed on to the ANC and as a result of that, the lives of certain members of the Branch were in danger and the lives of certain informers were endangered as a result.  These members had already been tasked by the ANC to attach a limpet mine to a Security Branch vehicle to demonstrate solidarity with the ANC.
	He further told me that some of the members had become involved in the elimination of Goniwe, Galatha, Mkonto and Mslawuli.  And that they were at the point of making known to the ANC the names of other members involved.

UNKNOWN: You read that from your application,  do you have an independent recall of the conversation which you had with Mr Nieuwoudt?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: More or less that.

UNKNOWN: Is that all he told you?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: Yes, that is correct.

UNKNOWN: What was the issue of fraud which arose?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That was something which Mr Gilbert mentioned to me on the phone.

UNKNOWN: Did you discuss that at all with Mr Nieuwoudt?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: No.

UNKNOWN: Why not?

NICHOLAS JANSE VAN RENSBURG: That wasn't important in my view, as far as the elimination of these people was concerned.