Human Rights Violation Hearings — Ladybrand — 1997-06-25

MR LAX: We understand that.  Chairperson, I think that's all I wanted to cover at this stage.  Oh, one last thing.  Did you or your son ever make a case against the police?

WITNESS:  We never took any initiative to go and report this matter to the police, because how could we report policemen to policemen?  They were going to attack us.  That's why I said to them, "Kill us all so that there is no trouble thereafter."  It would have been much better to die all of us.  It was even going to be easy for the government to bury us.  They were going to bury us in just one grave.  It would have been much better.  If these policemen are around here I'll be happy if one of them comes to the stage of killing me immediately.

MR LAX: (Inaudible) ... thank you.

MR LAX: /CHAIRPERSON

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Baba Likotsi.  The story you have been telling us it is sad, like most of the stories which we hear here.  The fact that there was lots of humour, some of us laughed, is an indication that despite all that happened to you you didn't lose your spirit, they didn't get into your spirit.  It's almost like all the people who tried to get to you they are more like fools today.  You suffered losses.  Materially you lost some of your possessions, physically your health was affected, and emotionally you are still very upset.  We'll take all your concerns, your needs which you have articulated here, and they'll form part of the recommendations which we'll submit to the State President.  Thank you very much again.  Keep that spirit.

WITNESS:   I thank you.   Can please APLA come and fix my broken doors?

MR LAX: Can we just have some order please.  Thank you.  Okay, if we could just have some quiet please.  Thank you very much.
/CHAIRPERSON

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible) ... Meshack Mfazwe.  Good day, Mr Mfazwe.

MESHACK MFAZWE: Good day.

CHAIRPERSON: We welcome you here.

MESHACK MFAZWE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for having come forward to share your story with us.  Mr Ilan Lax will help you take an oath just before we start with your story.

MESHACK MFAZWE: (Sworn, States)   (Through Interpreter)

CHAIRPERSON: Before we get into your story we would like to know more about you and your family.  Are you working?

WITNESS:   I am not working.  I am not working.  All these things happened whilst I was still with my first wife.  I have two children and all of them are sons.

CHAIRPERSON: Sir, you say you are not working.  For how long have you not worked?

WITNESS:   As from 1994.

CHAIRPERSON: And now your family, you're saying something about your first wife.

WITNESS:   I was saying all these things happened to me whilst I was still with my first wife.

CHAIRPERSON: What's your family like now?

WITNESS:   I married again in 1994.  I married my second wife, and she is here with me.  We're still expecting a child this year in October.  With my first marriage I have two children, sons.  The other one is completing 14th year on September and the other one his 11th year in September.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time when this happened how old were you?

WITNESS:   In 1986 I was 30 years old.

CHAIRPERSON: You are here to tell us about your experience relating to your assault by police at your workplace, as well as your torture in detention.

WITNESS:   That's true.  May I continue?  I was tortured in many instances.  The first one, before the 29th of September 1986 I was working at Inter State Bus Line.  During that time it was known as Jacaranda Bus Service.  I was a driver, and again I was the chairperson of the stewards under South African Allied Workers Union.  It happened that more than 10 workers were retrenched on the 27th of September.  Because I was the leader of the workers we decided to stop working until those retrenched are re-employed.  It happened that they were re-employed on the 28th.  On the 29th in the morning I took my wife.  She was expectant, expecting our second child.  I took her to Pelonomi Hospital.  I arrived late, around quarter to one.  I was supposed that at 1 o'clock I should start working.  When I arrived I received message that one of our workers has been detained by the police, and that person was Moses Mhlapo.  I called all the workers.  Whilst we were still talking about this issue, how can we engage management in this issue, we took a decision that the following day we will meet our employer.  What happened at 1 o'clock when I was supposed to start working, when I arrived in the office when I was supposed to sign, they said I am not supposed to sign.  My employer said I should not go on duty.  I waited until half past three.  At 3 o'clock I see three kombis which belong to the South African Police, and they were in private uniform.  We were just relaxing as a group.  Those police were well armed, and we see that they were fighting.  One of the managers appeared, who is Mr Viljoen.  He pointed me among all the group.  These people didn't say anything to us, they just came to us with guns.  That person just pointed me.  The workers wanted to fight that I should not be arrested.  To see that these police would shoot I restrained the workers that they should leave these police to arrest me.  I was arrested and they took me to the office right inside the depot of Mr van Rensburg.  When I entered the office a certain white policeman - his surname was Jacobs.  He was accompanied by Mr van Rensburg, who was a policeman.  He hit me with an open hand.  He pushed me on the table.  While I was still looking at the depot manager to intervene he telephoned the head office of IBL.  He spoke to Mr Erasmus, who was the director of the company.  What they were talking about I don't know, but I was only to catch the last phrase, which said, "Let him be brought here."  The police took me.  We followed each other.  Whilst on the road other cars were taking another direction, but the kombi took us to another direction.  This Jacobs asked me which language do I speak.  Then I told him that I am speaking Xhosa.  Then he said, "You Xhosas, you are the ones who are looking for this land."  Then I didn't answer him.  When we arrived there one of them alighted and he went inside, and when he returned Jacobs said Mr Erasmus said he doesn't want even to see me, which they should take me.  That is where I was taken care of.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible) ... the manager?