Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-10

GLADSTONE TEMBISILE NTAMO: The MK cadres were sent for a long time, but what I am trying to explain is that our areas were very active, it was easy for MK cadres to go and hide there.
 They problem of the police was that they couldn't do anything before, but now they found that we could defend ourselves, they didn't know who trained us, they didn't know where we got the guns and this is how we got them.  We got them the way which Mr Yamile has explained.
 We got the expertise from the MK cadres, that is why the National Party Government got scared.

MARY BURTON: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Are there any other questions that the panel would like to put?  Pumla Gobodo-Madikizela?

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Chairperson, thank you very much.  We did hear whilst you were talking that "witdoeke" the people called "witdoeke" were hunting people who were said to have hidden in your area, is that correct?  The "witdoeke" were looking, were searching for people, the hiding people who were said to have been sent by Umkonto We Sizwe, who were hidden?

GLADSTONE TEMBISILE NTAMO: The actual reason was that the police first came so that those wanted to burn, could burn.  The "witdoeke" was very powerless to look for ...

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And Lezo and Oscar, that were mentioned, do you know them?  You never saw them?

GLADSTONE TEMBISILE NTAMO: No, I never saw them.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Now, there were some people who were members of Umkonto members, it was clear that they were also fighting against the police.  Did they also fight with the "witdoeke"?  The MK cadres, the MK men who were in your area, did they join in your fight against the "witdoeke"?

GLADSTONE TEMBISILE NTAMO: I could put it this way if anyone can look at it, the aim of the attack of 1986 from the 17th of May, right from Nyanga Bush to 11, it was not "witdoeke" I hear that people are saying that they were looking for people who were burning people, but that was the plan.
 They were not looking, "witdoeke" were just sent to destroy the houses, but the real aim was to look for MK cadres.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I am asking this question because there was a statement which mentioned Zwelitsha who said that Lezo and Oscar, the first thing that they did, they shot people who were "witdoeke", claiming that they wanted to be trusted by the residents.  I just wanted to clarify that, maybe you knew.

GLADSTONE TEMBISILE NTAMO: The person I knew was Zwelitsha and comrade (indistinct) and some other comrades, (indistinct) etc.  I don't know this two you are mentioning.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Okay, I think I will stop at that, thank you very much.  I will hand over to the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Pumla.  Mary Burton you would like to ask one more question?

MARY BURTON: Thank you Chairperson.  We've heard many reasons given and you have given us particularly the reason for the search for the MK cadres about why these attacks on these areas took place.
 That is one of the reasons, and another reason is just generally the challenge to the authority of the leaders of the older areas, but there were also we've heard today and yesterday, allegations that there were people's courts happening, that people were being necklaced.  What is your response to those allegations and to some of the other many  reasons that caused the attacks?

GLADSTONE TEMBISILE NTAMO: What I cannot run away from there was use of necklaces as you've heard yesterday and today, there was a practice of necklacing, there were also prisons, illegal prisons.
 Yesterday when I was listening some other people who had taken forcibly that was happening.  It was true, it was so much so that I can't run away from the fact that we in the UDF didn't use the necklace, but it was not only the UDF that used it, it was used, but I can't deny that.
 And these courts where people were being locked and we said - like we said he was locked at Crossroads and we said we are not going into any discussions until he was released.  And that is not a prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Pumla?

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Just something for the record actually Madam Chair.  One of the things that he mentioned is that these two Ascaris who came to your camps, they were not the only two.  There were others who had scattered all over the Western Cape, in the Guguletu area, in Khayelitsha and in other Cape Flats areas.
 They did mention that there were others, not only these two.  They planted Ascaris all over.  I just wanted to state a point of fact, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mary Burton, would you please make your concluding remarks?

MARY BURTON: Thank you Chairperson.  If I may I would like to include Mr Yamile also in our thanks to both Mr Ntamo and Mr Yamile for their submission to us today, their frank testimony and they have helped us in the very hard study that we are having to do into the reasons that these things happened and as Mr Ntsebeza saying earlier, this is not a question of putting people in the dock to answer charges, but it is part of our quest for the truth and we are hoping that the truth will ease the pain and the suffering that so many people experienced at the time.
 So we thank you very much for being willing to come and take part in this process.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Ntamo was our last witness today.  Before we conclude these proceedings, I would ask Pumla to read out a list of names of people who died during the conflict.
 I would like to ask the audience please to stand as a mark of respect while Pumla reads out the names of these people, thank you.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Madam Chairman, Zinkizi Napoye, M. Hlanqomo, Desmond Pumzile Dozi, Thozama Nelson Maso, Donald Magadi, Peter Poponi, Sipho Shoba, Sabalele Jack, E.S. Phillip, Sibiloana Njitshe, Dumela Ntantiso, Maboysana Galimane, Zenzile Siquala, Sebenzile Naqasi, Makosi Somdaga, William Mba, Mbulele Beja, N. Wugelwa, E. Tsele, Z.D. Ntsete, M. Ndamani, L.N. Kanqca, M. Monombane, Hmlameni, V.R. Gugusa, C. Jones, G. Zazele, M.P. Mtuntwana, Ernest Solosi Topana, Lukanyiso Mendo Fenya, Fujani Douglas Djabosi, Sazi Gwenza, Lennox Jantjie, Mallos Mxolisi Maseko, George Daniel Pongolo, Themba Dunga, Christopher Kwaiman, Kali Cameron, Mtunzi Hackington, Mapumane Michael Jane, Theopolis Thamsanq Thambiso, Phosisa Albertina Willem, A. Morrison, Julius Tamsanqa Qwale, Matatani John Galaweni, Mtada Scots, Leon Mzigulu Qcingese, Monwabesi Nombane, George d'Arth.  There are several other names, people who died, who are listed as unknown,  Male, unknown, femal, unknown.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  You may be seated.  The names that were just read out and to whom we have paid our deepest respects have been identified from inquest documentation, newspaper and police reports.
 We are still in the process of compiling the list of people who died in this conflict and by no means is ... (tape ends)