Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-01-31

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: After the communication breakdown I went around Tsolo because we were tired, we wanted to sleep.  We slept for a while and then after realising that we had this problem, we decided to go back to Maclear because we were already in the Transkei, in Tsolo and that is where we did not want to be arrested.  We were running away from the Transkei, so we decided to go back to Maclear.

MS DAMBUZA: And then when you got to Maclear, what did you do?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: When we got to Maclear it was early hours of the morning, it was in the morning and we heard over the radio that Col Duli went to the Transkei and things did not go according to his way at that time.

MS DAMBUZA: What do you mean when you say things did not go according to plan?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: According to what we heard over the radio it was clear that he did not get what he had promised to get, there was some conflict that was happening.

MS DAMBUZA: And what did you do on hearing that?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: After hearing that I took these people, those that were with me, I took them back to Queenstown where I found them.  I then went back to East London where I was staying.

MS DAMBUZA: What was your actual involvement going to be in the process? - that is the coup itself.

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: My role was on the second plan because there was going to be another operation, another military operation that we termed Operation Sacrifice, that was going to be led by Mr Duli.  And there was another one, Operation Dawn, whereby after everything was done, after the soldiers were taken back to their camp, I would then take steps to build a new government.

MS DAMBUZA: What exactly were you - how were you going to facilitate that?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: When the soldiers were taken back to the camps and the Security Forces were deployed and the soldiers, my job would have been to call the kings and the chiefs from Sterkspruit, Maluti, Emboleni, Chingoland.  I would call them and they would come together with the paramount chiefs and the State President was going to be involved and would give instructions that the State President ask the judge for them to be the custodians of the Transkei so that there could be an interim cabinet that would rule the Transkei.  And we were going to give the President a sick leave after we had taken over.  I was going to stay in that house until things became more clearer.

MS DAMBUZA: And is it correct that you had in your possession tapes which would be transmitted over the radio to advise the general public of the take-over of the coup?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, I had those tapes with me, but I destroyed them after this attempted coup, after our plan failed.

MS DAMBUZA: Did you become aware at any stage that during the course of the attempt of the coup there were some people who died?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I heard that.  That was a very painful thing because after all those attempts there were some people that lost their lives.

MS DAMBUZA: What eventually happened to yourself after you destroyed the tapes and went back to East London?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I then went to Johannesburg and while I was in Johannesburg I was lured to go to Durban but I escaped and then I went back to Johannesburg.  There were spies that were supposed to kidnap me.  I went back to East London, whereby I asked the police or I told the military government that I was in East London, if there was something they needed I was available.  So I went back and I handed myself over here in the Transkei, so that I can face charges if that was to be.

MS DAMBUZA: And is it correct that then you were prosecuted, convicted and sentenced to 11 years imprisonment?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, that is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: How many years did you actually stay in prison?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: One year and six months.

MS DAMBUZA: And is it correct that you were released in 1995 on presidential parole?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: That is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: Are you now applying for amnesty for the acts which you have just outlined to the Committee?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, that is correct, I am here today to humble myself, especially to the families who lost their loved ones.  Even though I just stated that I was not part of that military operation, but I was involved in the planning of that and after all this I would have been ...(indistinct).  So the fact that people lost their lives, that is very painful to me.  And I had a decision that I was going to represent and protect people but it happened that instead of protecting them, some of them lost their lives.

MS DAMBUZA: Mr Chairman, that is the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS DAMBUZA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Dambuza.  Yes, Mr Nodada.

MR NODADA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
	Mazizi, do you - rather, have you disclosed everything that you wanted to disclose to this Committee?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I tried, Sir.

MR NODADA: And you are aware that the Act that governs these hearings demands and requires that one should make a complete disclosure of one's involvement in any commission of an offence.

JUDGE MILLER: It says a full disclosure of all relevant facts.

MR NODADA: All relevant facts, thank you, Sir.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, we don't need to know every single minute detail if it's irrelevant.

MR NODADA: Yes.
	You are aware of that Mr Ntisana?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, I'm aware.

MR NODADA: I believe that you are the person who actually recruited your brother Mzwandile Ntisana, is that correct?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I recruited him but I was not aware.

MR NODADA: You were not aware of what?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I was not aware that the intention was to overthrow the government at the time I was recruiting him.  I spoke to Craig Duli after he was released from prison in Port Elizabeth, not in Lusikisiki, at about June and this incident happened in January.

MR NODADA: When you recruited Mzwandile and others, what did you think they were required for by Col Duli?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: To me it was enough for him to say that he wanted them because he wanted to go back to work and I can say that all these people together with Craig Duli, from time to time they would go and visit me because I had two brothers that were working for the Military Intelligence.  So it was common for him to visit me at home.

MR NODADA: Now when Craig Duli was released from custody, what were his conditions of release, do you know?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I don't know.

MR NODADA: When he said to you he wanted to come back to Transkei and work, did you know what he had been working as before he was detained?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, I knew.

MR NODADA: What was he working as?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: He was working for the Military Intelligence.

MR NODADA: Was he not the second-in-command to Gen Bantu Holomisa, as a Chairman of the military council?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: That is correct.

MR NODADA: And you knew that when he was detained it was because he had fallen into some disagreement with Gen Holomisa.

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: Yes, that is correct, I noticed that.

MR NODADA: Did you then ask him what he was going to come back to Transkei and work as?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: He said that he was going back to his office, he was expelled.

JUDGE MILLER: So what did you think Mr Ntisane, that he was going back to become second-in-charge again of the military council?  Is that what you think when he said he was going back to his office?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: I believed what he said because he was a very clever man.

MR NODADA: Right.  You were a member of parliament during the previous government under the leadership of Stella Sigcau, is that correct?

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: That is correct, Sir.