Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-26

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we can become specific in a minute I just wanted the sort of general situation.  Was it - perhaps I must ask you so I can just understand, was the position that within that broad approach, broad policy of the organisation it is left to the commander to identify a specific target falling within the categories that we've referred to?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The initiative is that of the commander, it is absolutely from the commander's point of view to target where the specific targets or for that specific area to attack any house, the initiative is left to the commander as we were waiting ...(indistinct), because we were not waiting ...(indistinct) whereby something has to be - the orders have to come from the higher echelons specifically, that is to go and attack this specific target.

CHAIRPERSON: So provided it is within the ambit of the general targets if I might put it that way, the commander on the ground is left with the specific authority to take the initiative?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And from your understanding of the basis for these attacks were they attacks of this nature where either Mtate or yourself took the initiative to attack specific targets falling within the general category?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Well such attacks I believe were taking place all over the country but there will be other specific attacks whereby they will need approval from the higher echelons.

CHAIRPERSON: But in your instance and that of Mtate?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes in our case as also commanders of those areas we did have authority to carry out and further to that we will liaise with our headquarters in Transkei, brief them of what happened, depending whether you do it prior to the attack or after the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: So if you hadn't liaised prior to the attack you would report on the details of the attack and the outcome of the attack and so on?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes, that's what we will do.

CHAIRPERSON: In these cases what happened, were there any prior reports or subsequent reports or what happened?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: In the case of the house which was attacked I
...(indistinct) that it did inform them prior the attack because he was the person who travelled to Transkei and even after all as I was saying that in the time he was arrested at Transkei so I don't know whether he was there to report the incident or what but in my case of this one, of the farm, I did report after because at that time that I was not there and I was left alone to take the initiative and I had to do something and if you can see even from the dates this one is from the 19th and the other one was on the 10th of the same month.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, of December.  Just remind me, which one was the 19th?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: The 19th was the second one, the farm.

CHAIRPERSON: The farm.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes then the other one was house.

CHAIRPERSON: The houses was the 10th?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo have you got any re-examination?

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, there's only one I would like to stress, there's only one, it's in terms of chain of command.
	Can you tell the Committee what position were you holding in terms of the command structure?  We know that there were commanders on the ...(indistinct) unit, commanders - regional commanders up to the last person to the director of operations where some of the instructions were coming from and where you were reporting.  Which position were you holding?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I was the regional commander of Mtate Section or Mtate region which comprised the areas of like Sterkspruit and surrounding areas of it.  Zastron, Lady Grey, they were all under my operative.

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you know which position was held by Mtate?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: Mtate was having the same position for Elisewood, the whole of Elisewood.

RE MR MBANDAZAYO: That's all Chairperson, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to clarify one issue.  When you report in the case of a farm attack, when you reported on the attack itself, who did you report to?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I would report to Letshlapo.

CHAIRPERSON: What was his ...[intervention]

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: He was the Director of Operations.

CHAIRPERSON: Director of Operations.  Thank you.
Thank you Mr Dolo, you can stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED