Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

JOHN RADEBE: When I said I received training whilst I was in Small Farm, it was an orientation kind of training.  Then after that I had to go for training as to whether am I fit enough so that I will be able to confront any particular incident.  That is where I went to Sasol that I passed that training.

MR LAX: I just want to place on record you're not explaining this thing satisfactorily at all, but carry on Ms Thabethe.

ADV BOSMAN: Ms Thabethe, just one question to follow on here.  Can I just repeat my question again?  If you had not undergone underground training but were just sort of orientated, on what grounds did you get promotion so soon in the Zone 12 unit?

JOHN RADEBE: What's the question?

ADV BOSMAN: You told me that you were promoted because you had undergone underground training before going to the Zone 12 unit, now you say it was not underground training, it was just an orientation to see if you fit for underground training.  So could you just explain again then, how did it come about you were, so soon after you'd gone to Zone 12, promoted?

JOHN RADEBE: Maybe they were satisfied with my progress.  Maybe because of the tasks which I performed before.  I would not know the criteria they used in my promotion.  I was informed that in the absence of Mabusa I would be in charge, that is why

ADV BOSMAN: Who informed you?  Carry on.

JOHN RADEBE: Sorry.  That is Mabusa and a certain person in Sasol.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.  Mr Radebe, exactly how and where did you shoot Ms Hapile Ndumo?  I mean, maybe I'm not clear, did you shoot her on the head, the neck, how did you shoot her?

CHAIRPERSON: Does it matter Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Madam Chair, there's a follow up question, yes I think it matters, because he had said earlier on that, he gave evidence that Mr Mkhwanazi also shot Ms Hapile Ndumo.  So now I want him to explain because it's like he's the only one who shot him.  I want him to explain how did he do it and what the others were doing while he was shooting her.

CHAIRPERSON: I'll allow it but I don't see it's relevance, the intention was to shoot to kill.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MS THABETHE: How did you shoot her, Ms Hapile Ndumo?

MR LAX: The question is where did you shoot her on her body?  When you say how then you go into all sorts of other areas Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Member of the Committee.  Where in her body did you shoot her?

JOHN RADEBE: I would say on the chest.

MS THABETHE: How many times?

JOHN RADEBE: I would say it was four, four times if I'm not mistaken.

MS THABETHE: There was evidence that there was, the name IFP was written on Hapile's thigh.  Who, who wrote that on her thigh?

MR LAX: It wasn't written on her thigh, it was carved with a knife on her thigh.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Member of the Committee.

JOHN RADEBE: I don't know who did that.

MS THABETHE: So you lied in your evidence in Court when you said you saw Mr Neti doing it and that you also saw him tearing off her clothes?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, I lied.

MS THABETHE: In your evidence you said you shot Elsie and Hapile because you wanted to achieve a political objective against IFP.  My question is how was shooting Elsie and Hapile going to achieve that political objective?  Can you briefly explain?

JOHN RADEBE: The community would be free.

MS THABETHE: From what?

JOHN RADEBE: They would be freed from their murderers and their spies.

MS THABETHE: In your evidence you said Mabusa told you more about Elsie and Hapile.  Exactly what did he tell you?

JOHN RADEBE: He told me that they were Inkatha members and they are wanted, together with others.

MS THABETHE: Did he tell you about a Johannes Msimbe, or is it the first time you hear about him now?

JOHN RADEBE: I don't know him.

MS THABETHE: So you don't know that there was a policeman in Zone 12 by the name of Johannes Msimbe, who happened to be Elsie's boyfriend.  You don't know that?

JOHN RADEBE: No, I don't know that.

MS THABETHE: You see Mr Radebe, it's my instructions that you actually targeted Ms Mokoena because she happened to have a relationship with this policeman.  What is your response to that?

JOHN RADEBE: He may take it that way because the police were  helping Inkatha.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know at that stage that she was having a relationship with a policeman?

JOHN RADEBE: No, I did not know.

MS THABETHE: My next question is, if Mabusa Mhlongo had not told you that Elsie and Hapile were IFP, would you have killed them, or would you have shot them?

JOHN RADEBE: No, I would not.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Thabethe.  Ms Moloisane do you have any re-examination?

MS MOLOISANE: No questions in re-examination Madam Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MOLOISANE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, do you have any questions to put to Mr Radebe.

MR LAX: If you'll just bear with me one moment Chair, there were one or two small things.

MR LAX: You said that when you left from the stokvel, from Neti's place, this group of people then followed you.  Is that right, did I hear correctly?

JOHN RADEBE: No.

MR LAX: So when did this group of people then begin following you?

JOHN RADEBE: When we left at Samuel Neti's place.

MR LAX: Well that's what I've just said.

JOHN RADEBE: You said at the stokvel.

MR LAX: Where was the stokvel?

JOHN RADEBE: It was far from Samuel Neti's place, next to the tarred road.

MR LAX: You found him at the stokvel.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: Now, you, who had gone to find him, yourself and Mkhwanazi?

JOHN RADEBE: It was, I entered inside, but I left them outside.

MR LAX: Who is them?

JOHN RADEBE: Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena.

MR LAX: Yes.

JOHN RADEBE: I left Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena

MR LAX: So it was just the three of you?

JOHN RADEBE: ... and Abraham Mkhwanazi.  I left the three of them outside when I entered there, then I came back with Kraai.

MR LAX: Where was Ntjolo?

JOHN RADEBE: Who?

MR LAX: Ntjolo.

JOHN RADEBE: We were together with him.

MR LAX: So?  All of you went to the stokvel?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, all of us went to the stokvel, I was the one who entered inside.

MR LAX: And you got Samuel out and then you went to Samuel's house.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: What did you do there?

JOHN RADEBE: We did not do anything we just left them there and then we left.

MR LAX: Now, did you leave them on the road there, or did you take them into Samuel's house?

JOHN RADEBE: We left them on the street.

MR LAX: At that stage when you left them there was no crowd there yet?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: You then proceeded to Hollywood?

MS THABETHE: Yes.

MR LAX: Why did you go to Hollywood?

JOHN RADEBE: We were looking for ammunition.

MR LAX: Is that the only reason you went to Hollywood?
GAP BETWEEN TAPES

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MR LAX: Each consisting, well you said yours consisted of between 18 and 20 members.  Did the others consist of 18 to 20 members?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: Well you said that in total in the whole of Sebokeng there were between 80 and 100 SDU members, and that Bonga Khumalo was the general overall commander of them.  Is that right?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: So at most to service the rest of Sebokeng there would have been 20 other people.  That can't be possible.

JOHN RADEBE: I don't understand your question.

MR LAX: Well you see, you've told us there were 4 units in Zone 12 alone, and each of those units had been 18 and 20 members, that's 80 people at best.  So of the balance of 100 people at best, or on your version, there are 20 other SDU members for the rest of Sebokeng.  That can't possibly be true, you must be making a mistake.

JOHN RADEBE: I said in my unit we were approximately 18 to 20 members.  I did not say each unit in Zone 12.