Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-10-08

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  My next applicant will be Winile Veveza.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Veveza, which language would you prefer to use?

WINILE VEVEZA: Xhosa.

WINILE VEVEZA: (sworn states)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Veveza, the affidavit which is before yourself is also before the Committee.  Do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

WINILE VEVEZA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Veveza, you have heard Mr Biko giving evidence before this Committee.  Can you tell the Committee in your own words the role you played in this incident?

WINILE VEVEZA: The role I played?  I can tell the Committee the role I played.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes continue.

WINILE VEVEZA: I was at home, it was round about after three.  It was a Sunday.  I received a message that I was needed in Zukile Biko's house, Tamsanqa Duma was looking for me.
	I went there to Zukile Biko's place.  I was with Mzuamadoda Yengeni and Mogeti.  When we were still there at Zukile's place, Mabuti Biko came and he called Mogeti aside and they went outside.  When he came back outside he said to me and to Mzuamadoda Yengeni we must go to town.  We stood up and we went to town.  
	When we arrived in town we went to Alice Street in Fort Beaufort, we went through Alice Street.  When we were in front of a certain house that I didn't know who the owner was, he told us to go inside the house.  We went inside.  
	When we were in the stoep there was a door opened behind.  We then knocked on that door and a white man came by the name of Franciscato.  At that time I didn't know what his name was.  Mabuti asked about a lady by the name of Joyce, whether she was working there or not.  He didn't answer, he just said there was no lady by the name of Joyce and then he closed the door.
	Mabuti went inside.  He pushed the door and went inside.  I also went inside because the door was open.  He kicked this white man and he pointed the gun.  He was lying down.  I went in and helped him.   He asked this white man about the weapons.  We told him that we wanted weapons from him, he should give us firearms.  He said that he didn't have firearms with him and we then, we beat him, Mabuti kicked him and we kicked him.  We picked him up and he said that the firearms were in his bedroom.  Mabuti then went in and Mzuamadoda was also inside at that time.
	Mabuti took him to the room and he gave us an instruction to search inside the house to see whether we can find other firearms.  We searched inside the house, we looked inside the house.  When he was in the back room I heard a gunshot.  I then went out of this room and I left Mzuamadoda there.  I went to him and I saw that this white man was lying on the ground.  I saw blood on the ground.
	There was a mirror in the house and it was full of blood and the brains were scattered all over. We then took these firearms.  We opened the trunk.  It looked like a toolbox trunk where we found a 2.2.  We found small guns.  He then told us to leave and we should not touch anything because the police would find fingerprints and we could be arrested.
	We then went out.  When we were near the river at Theba he told us that he was supposed to search our pockets so that he could see whether we took something else because he didn't want a dirty job.  We agreed.  He then searched us.
	We went back to Zukile Biko's house where he left us there.  He left and we didn't know where he was going.  He didn't tell us where he was going.  He said that he would come back, we should wait there for him.  That is all.

ADV SANDI: Did he take the arms with him when he left?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes, he took arms with him when he left.  He took the long rifle.  He then folded it and he put it in his jacket.  He then left.  We were in Zukile Biko's place at that time.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank is all, Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: So when you joined the task force, that was the task force of APLA, is that right?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And that was in 1990?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes, between 1990 and 1991.

MR MAPOMA: And before that you were already a member of the PAC, as from 1988?

WINILE VEVEZA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: How did you join APLA?

WINILE VEVEZA: I didn't join APLA, I joined task force from the PAC.

ADV SANDI: So you were not a member of APLA as such?

WINILE VEVEZA: No, I was not a member of APLA, I was working with APLA.  I was a member of PAC under the task force.

MR MAPOMA: You were trained?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes, I was trained.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you trained in?

WINILE VEVEZA: Please repeat your question, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: In what were you trained?

WINILE VEVEZA: I was trained in the task force.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, to do what, do mathematics or read English or what?

WINILE VEVEZA: I was trained to defend members of the PAC, the leadership of the PAC inside.

CHAIRPERSON: What was your training about?

WINILE VEVEZA: I was trained to defend members of the PAC inside the country.

CHAIRPERSON: How?

WINILE VEVEZA: I was trained to protect the leaders of the PAC inside the country, not myself.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you supposed to do in order to comply with that duty?

WINILE VEVEZA: What I was supposed to do, for example if there was a rally I was supposed to make sure that there was nothing that was going to disturb that rally.

CHAIRPERSON: And what would you have to do to do that, to ensure that that rally was not going to be disturbed?

WINILE VEVEZA: If there was supposed to be a rally on a certain day, on that day I was supposed to know everything that was going on in that area where the rally was going to be held.

CHAIRPERSON: And then?

WINILE VEVEZA: And then I would go and report or tell my commanders that this might disturb what the PAC people were going to do.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were trained in reconnaissance?

WINILE VEVEZA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?

WINILE VEVEZA: That is not all.

CHAIRPERSON: What else were you trained in?

WINILE VEVEZA: I was also trained to ensure that there was no-one who would go to PAC meetings to disturb those meetings or attack PAC like what was happening in Fort Beaufort where I'm staying.

CHAIRPERSON: That's also another section of reconnaissance, what else?

WINILE VEVEZA: I was also trained to attack the Boers in their areas.

CHAIRPERSON: How?

WINILE VEVEZA: In a manner that we did because we went to Franciscato's home to kill him and we took firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: How many firearms did you take with you?

WINILE VEVEZA: Four firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that's what you stole.  I'm asking how many firearms between the three of you did you take to the house?

WINILE VEVEZA: I had a bayonet together my co-accused, Biko had a .38.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you discover that Biko had the .38?

WINILE VEVEZA: When we were there in Franciscato's home.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't know that before then?  On the way there you didn't know that he was in possession of a .38?

WINILE VEVEZA: I didn't notice that.  I didn't take note of that on our way.  We ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think you were going to go and do by Franciscato's house?

WINILE VEVEZA: Please repeat your question, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: On the way to his house, what did you think you're going to do there?

WINILE VEVEZA: I didn't know before we arrived in the house, I knew when we were there.  He told us when we were there what we were supposed to do.

CHAIRPERSON: So why did you go with him then, when he said come with?  You didn't know what the operation was, you didn't know whether it was an operation.  You didn't know whether it was a task force operation, not so?  Why did you go with him then?

WINILE VEVEZA: It was a normal thing within the PAC as he was a member of APLA and we were working with him.

CHAIRPERSON: So?