Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-21

CHAIRPERSON: May I again interpose, Mr Sinangwenye so that we are on the same wavelength with your evidence.  Now whilst the digging is going on, the other members of your group are also there, they are witnessing Sepo Nduli and Mfanafuti digging the grave and then they are also there when this man is lifted from where he was lying on the ground and put inside the grave.   They are all there.  The group has not left.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: After that, we left the scene.

MR MALAN: Sorry, just before you proceed with that.  Was Moses Dlamini, was he also there?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, he was present.

MR MALAN: Did you hear his evidence when he said he knows nothing about the burial yesterday when he gave evidence?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, I heard his testimony.

MR MALAN: Was he lying to us?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: His testimony, that part was not what happened.  I was not in a position to remind him that things did not go the way he was telling, because he was still busy testifying at the time.

MR MALAN: Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You did well because you would not have been allowed to do that, even if you had an opportunity to do so.  You may proceed.

ADV DE JAGER: Who put him in a plastic bag?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: He was never put in a plastic bag.  I saw that in the photos during the trial.  After this person was exhumed, it looked like his body was decomposed and he was in bones, when they lifted him up the skull fell to the other side.  It was very difficult to keep this body together.  I think they decided to put him into that plastic bag when they were taking his dead body, because it was not going to be possible.  The situation, the manner, it was not the - what was seen on photos was not going to make it possible for them to carry a body in one piece.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed to give us the evidence the way you know it to have happened.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Alright.  After that we left.  On the way I talked to Mfanafuti and I said:  "Here is your knife", the one that I used to remove the eyes of the deceased.  He was scared, he got a fright, he did not want to own this knife again because of what he had seen.  I said:  "Fine, to show to you that there's nothing wrong with this knife, I took a piece of a sugar cane, I peeled the sugar cane with this onife, and I kept on eating this sugar cane on our way as I was walking with them and I told them that there was nothing wrong with this knife, as he said he didn't want to own this knife again, I was going to take this knife and he did not take it back because he had seen what this knife has done.  This knife has removed the eyes of a human being.  I told him that there's nothing wrong with the knife because even the blood spots were removed.  I wiped this knife on his clothes and the knife became clean again and we went to our place.  When we got there he took our ntelezi, Moses, that is.  This Ntelezi is the one that is taken from what is called ...(indistinct) a medicine that is taken from the mountain and we spread it all over the place because when this person was killed, he was taken from that place, therefore I knew that this kind of ntelezi is able to drive away some bad spirits.  I told them that after this had happened, this person from where he was coming from, they are surprised as to why is he not coming back.  They do think that he had encountered some problems, so each and everyone should be prepared and be armed with whatever weapon that he believed in because it could happen that those people would come looking for this person and they wouldn't do that bare-handed, they would also be armed, because they knew that - my brother knew that where he had sent this person, it is possible that this person was identified and killed.  Therefore people shouldn't just relax in their houses and listen to their radios and relax and have fun, they should try and lower the volumes of the radios, people shouldn't sit in the house for 20 minutes during the day, they should go back to their own positions and continue with patrolling.  I was also going to be around there, that's what I told them.

ADV DE JAGER: What I've been wondering, when you told us that this person had to be killed because otherwise he would go back and they would seen that he'd been tortured and then they would come back and attack us, but now you tell me the very same thing I was thinking about.  They knew he came to you, they knew he didn't return, so why wouldn't they come and have a look what happened to him, so your plan to kill him didn't solve the problem.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: After this, I can say that a problem was solved because there was no other conflict or fight after this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: You will recall that one of the primary reasons that made you to rethink the earlier decision taken by the group, that he should be released to return to Shayamoya, was that you were scared that on his arrival and seeing that he was in a terrible state after he had been beaten up by your members, that this would actually invoke people's anger and they would come an launch retaliatory attacks against your group and what was of paramount importance to you was the numbers gain.  You were a small group and they were a big group and you knew that you would not be able to match a bigger group in strength as yours was only not more than 16.  Now if you advanced the same reason that you have now advanced after my colleague has asked you and communicated his concerns to you, this person was known to have come to kill you and when he didn't return, they would know that something must have happened to him and that you would have done that, you would have done something to him.  Now wouldn't that have caused them to have returned in big numbers, to retaliate?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I would like to explain this, if I sent Moses, an example, if I sent Moses to go to a certain place to buy something, I am actually counting hours and if time elapses, 1 hour or 2 hours, I would start thinking and wondering if he doesn't come back, that is going to worry me and I will ensure in that situation that I will send someone else to go and look for him because if I sent him to a certain place, he should go straight there, he cannot do otherwise.  In that kind of a situation, that would be possible, that when those people realise that this person is not coming back, they should start wondering and think that that person has encountered some problems, therefore people were supposed to go and look for him, or a group of people would go there and look for him.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you understand my problem.  The reason why you revoked an earlier decision to release him after you had beaten this man up to a pulp was and correct me if I have not understood you properly, was because you were scared that when he went back to his people, they would retaliate in big numbers.  You were a small group of 16 and that's why you decided that you'd rather kill him, rather than release him because on his return, retaliation would be the name of the game.  You wouldn't avoid a retaliation.  These people would take up arms against you.  My problem is, you knew then as you still do now, that, what is your brother's name?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Mashinela.