Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-03

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I was informed by Gatchene that he had spoken to the police who had agreed that the loot should be put in the Casspir.  That was information that I received from Gatchene.

MS TANZER: Did he tell you that the loot would be returned to you when you got to the hostel, when you returned back to the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please repeat the question?

MR LOWIES: Sorry Chairperson, I have to object against the question.

MS TANZER: I'll withdraw the question.

MS TANZER: Did you see any military vehicles during the attack or on your way back to the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not see military vehicles.

MS TANZER: How did you get back to the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: We walked on foot and the Casspirs were carrying the loot and the weapons back to the hostel but the rest of us walked on foot.

MS TANZER: Can you describe the route that you took back to the KwaMadala Hostel, can you remember?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: When we came back from the shacks, we went into the main street in Boipatong where there were shops.  We passed a group of factories along the way and we proceeded towards the street near the BP garage.  I'm not sure of the name of the street.

MS TANZER: Was this the same direction that you had taken to Boipatong in the beginning before the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, it was not the same route, we took a different route.  It was when we came back from the township we took a different route, we did not go the same way as we had done before.

MS TANZER: What were your instructions regarding the weapons you had used during the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Weapons such as AK47's, pump guns, spears and pangas.

CHAIRPERSON: What instructions had you been given in regard to these weapons that you had used?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: On our way back or during the attack?  We were ordered to return the guns to the stadium.

MS TANZER: What were your instructions regarding the stolen loot that you had taken from the attack on Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Dakie Xongo, they discussed that the loot should be burned because it would be evidence of the attack on Boipatong.

MS TANZER: On the night of the attack was there any celebration after you had returned?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes there was, we were singing and when we arrived back at the stadium we received another Indelezi to drink so that we would be cleansed.

MS TANZER: Did Themba Khosa and Mtwana Zulu take part in the attack?

MR LOWIES: No, Mr Chairman, I must object again, I submit that that would also be suggesting an answer.

MS TANZER: I'll rephrase the question.  Did any of the known leaders take part in the attack, did you see any of the known leaders of the KwaMadala Hostel or the IFP during that night of the attack in Boipatong, did you see them at Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: The only people that I saw were the Indunas.  The leaders, I saw the leaders at the stadium.

MS TANZER: Can you describe to this Commission what happened during the days after the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please repeat the question?

MS TANZER: Can you describe what happened on the day and days after the attack.  What took place at the KwaMadala Hostel after the attack on Boipatong and the days afterwards?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Themba Khosa arrived at the hostel after the attack and he had come there to collect all the guns that had been used in the attack.

MS TANZER: Did he tell you anything else?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, he had a meeting with the Indunas, he didn't speak to us directly, so we were informed by the Indunas that he had come to collect the guns.

MS TANZER: Was there a meeting or any meeting that took place after the attack, regarding the attack at the KwaMadala Hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't remember well because I just remember Themba Khosa arriving to have a meeting with the Indunas with regards to the weapons that were used in Boipatong.

MS TANZER: What did you do with your weapon?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I returned it to the stadium on the night of the 17th after the attack.

MS TANZER: Did you put it on the floor or where did you put your weapon?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: There was an open ground where all weapons were placed and Dakie Xongo is the person who removed them.

MS TANZER: Did you see Peens, Chaka, Rooikop or any other member of the South African Police Force at the KwaMadala Hostel during the weeks after the attack on Boipatong?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I last saw them on the day of the attack on Boipatong, I never saw them at the hostel again.

MS TANZER: Did you see Victor Kezwa on the days after the attack at the hostel.  Did you ever see him again?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: As I said before, I last saw Victor Kezwa during the day of the attack, I did not see him after the attack was launched.

MS TANZER: In your affidavit, on page 22 at paragraph 25, you stated that Themba Khosa came to collect the weapons?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MS TANZER: You mention "we were told that other policemen, not the policemen from Vereeniging, would come and search
for weapons."?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct because the IFP worked closely with the police from Vereeniging so they would not have been able to come and search the place.

MS TANZER: You also mention that Themba Khosa was very happy and praised the people at a rally that was held at the hostel the same day?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please repeat that?

MS TANZER: You mention that, you stated under oath that Khosa was very happy and praised the people at a rally that was held at the hostel the same day?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't remember that well.  What I remember about the rally is the one that was held in Natal at Ulundi, that was a rally at which Themba Khosa was excited.

CHAIRPERSON: But what do you say about this statement?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I said Themba Khosa arrived after the attack at Boipatong and he spoke to the Indunas.

CHAIRPERSON: So there was no rally at the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, we were informed by the Indunas after they had held a meeting with Themba Khosa.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, is the position that Themba Khosa did not meet with the hostel residents?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: He had a meeting with the Indunas and with the authorities.  Those other people that he spoke to, he did not speak to us.  I only got the information from Gatchene.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Gatchene report to you that Khosa was very happy and had praised the people?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, a meeting was held after Themba Khosa had left and we were informed about the purpose of his visit.

CHAIRPERSON: So there was a meeting at which you received a report from Isinduna as to what Khosa had said to them in connection with the attack?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Themba Khosa had said that the police were going to come and search the hostel and therefore he wanted to collect all weapons that had been used in Boipatong so that they be burned.

CHAIRPERSON: You see because what you're saying, what says in your statement, paragraph 5, Khosa was very happy and praised the people at a rally that was held at the hostel the same day but as I understand your evidence, Khosa did not meet with you, he only spoke with Isinduna?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Forget about what you said to your attorney, I just want to tell you what is it you are saying to us now.  Okay, so you received a report back from Gatchede, his Induna, as to what Khosa had said to them?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS TANZER: Can you tell the Commission about the rally in Ulundi?