Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-24

MR MOTLAUNG: And Sir, were you there when instructions were given by Johan du Plessis about the mission to Pretoria?  Let me not put it that way, when - according to paragraph 12 and I quote
"Every vehicle driver found him two passengers and they were tasked to go and throw pipe bombs in certain towns."
When this happened, the only impression that I get here is that people were told that bombs would have to be thrown or used in certain towns, that is all that that is saying.

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is correct.  Commandant "Duppie" was present when he gave us these instructions.  I do not know if he specifically gave me an instruction.

MR MOTLAUNG: As you understood them at the time, did anybody say that the pipe bombs must be used at the taxi ranks?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is correct, the pipe bombs had to be thrown at the taxi ranks.  I would assume that because you wouldn't often find a white taxi rank.

ADV GCABASHE: No, but the question is one of fact, did you hear anybody say those bombs should be thrown at black taxi ranks? Don't assume, what did you hear?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Yes Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: Did you hear anybody say that?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: Who was it?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: It was Commandant "Duppie".

MR MOTLAUNG: Are you sure about that Sir?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: I am almost a hundred percent sure Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: So when you went out to Pretoria you knew that you were going to throw a pipe bomb at the black commuters, is that what you are saying?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is correct Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: So your intention was to kill them?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: I wouldn't say to specifically kill them but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think what was going to happen if you throw a bomb there?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: The possibility existed that they could have been killed but not in all regards.  Can I just make it clear?  I did not know the strength or the explosion power of that pipe bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: You must have heard last week it was specifically said that peoples' lives had to be taken. Did you not hear that?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: I did hear it.

CHAIRPERSON: So why are we battling here?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: What I am trying to say Chairperson, is that when we threw the bomb we did not know if people would die or not.

ADV BOSMAN: Can I put it to you this way Mr Steyn, did you have peace whether people die or not?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: It was part of our task and Chairperson if people had to die it was one of those things.

ADV BOSMAN: If you can just give me a simple yes or no. I don't want to push you into a corner, I simply want an answer.  You didn't care whether people died or not?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Yes.

MR MOTLAUNG: Sir, listening to the way you gave your testimony and particularly when you were talking about Jaco Nel I am getting an impression and please correct me if it is wrong, that somewhere you feel like you have been abused, like at some stage he took you to some place, it later turned out it is like this was a girlfriend or things like that.  Is that impression correct?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is so Chairperson.

MR MOTLAUNG: And finally, Sir tell me when you went to Pretoria you saw yourself executing a mission as endowed or given to you by Johan du Plessis, correct?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is correct.

MR MOTLAUNG: And is it also correct that he gave you a particular target that you must go for, correct?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is correct.

MR MOTLAUNG: You did not go for the target that you have been given, yourself, Jaco Nel and the other one is Mr Gert Fourie decided within your own wisdom at some stage that you are changing the target, correct?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is correct Chairperson.  Actually it was not my decision but I identified myself with it. It was impossible to throw the pipe bomb at a taxi rank.

MR MOTLAUNG: Knowing that you operated like a soldier you knew that now you are carrying out your own mission, this is not the mission that you had been sent out on, correct?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: No Chairperson, even though we did use our own discretion at that stage it was put clearly to us that we do not go back unless an explosion takes place.

MR MOTLAUNG: Are you saying that were told that you must go for the black taxi rank or if you can't find a black taxi rank go for anything else otherwise I would have really wanted to hear it before hand. Is that your evidence?

MR PRINSLOO: Chairperson, that is not what he testified, he specifically explained what happened and why they targeted another target.

CHAIRPERSON: But he did add that he used his own discretion or that is the impression he gave us.

MR PRINSLOO: But in all respect the way I understand his evidence was that the bomb had to explode.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but what does it mean when he says you must see that the bomb explode: "You do not return", or words to that effect, "unless you made a bomb explode".

MR PRINSLOO: That is correct he must make sure the bomb goes off but with respect, he doesn't mean that he had to use his own discretion.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh then I do not know.

MR MOTLAUNG: So Mr Steyn, the discretion that you are now talking about is your own discretion that you gave yourself, nobody gave you the discretion about the targets, correct?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: No Mr Chairperson, the discretion was not my responsibility what to do, the discretion was Jaco Nel's, he chose this specific place and we just had to identify with him or reconcile with his decision.

MR MOTLAUNG: .

MR PRIOR: Mr Steyn just in short three points. I know that it is late but it is not fair to put such limitations. It would have been stupid to detonate the bomb if the police was in the area?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is true yes.

MR PRIOR: As I understand your position you wanted to plant the bomb there or throw the bomb there but because the police was there you decided against it?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Yes that is correct.

MR PRIOR: And then later that evening you threw it at another place?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Yes were there twice at that specific place.

MR PRIOR: When Mr Myburgh demonstrated these pipe bombs to you he must have surely told you that if you light the fuse you have to get away fast because it will explode?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is true.

MR PRIOR: Because if you remain in that area you will blow yourself up so you knew that if you detonate that bomb people can be killed in the process?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is correct yes.

MR PRIOR: Was that in your mind when you rolled out the bomb to the structure where people where sitting drinking in Maraba town?  In Mr du Plessis' application on page 113 he gave evidence or testified in front of this Committee that the people who were grouped together they said: "choose your own pipe bomb", is that correct?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is true yes.

MR PRIOR: What pipe bomb did you choose, a big one, a small one, a round one, which one?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: I cannot really comment on that.

MR PRIOR: Indicate to us how long this pipe bomb was?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: I would say it was approximately 600cm long.

MR PRIOR: Was it one of the biggest ones that was lying around there?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: I cannot comment no, it was in a vehicle's boot.

MR PRIOR: Is it correct that you did not just follow instructions, you identified yourself with the bomb missions that went out from the game farm in order to create chaos and kill people?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: That is correct yes.

MR PRIOR: We don't want to take a long route here now but you went after Myburgh?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Yes we did identify ourselves with these bombings.

MR PRIOR: When Myburgh demonstrated there after that meeting under the tree outside, did he talk about killing people?

PETRUS PAULUS STEYN: Yes that is true.