Human Rights Violation Hearings — Winelands — 1996-10-14

MS SISHUBA: It was the time when there was the State of Emergency and there were blockades all over and I thought that people were not aware of what the police were doing.  So I  would make telephone calls to The Times and to the Argus newspapers but they were doing nothing about all this.  I had intention to expose everything of what was happening because this youth was a first - soccer club and then later known as AZANJU.
So we were looking at then as the youth of the AZANJU.  I then went to Ms Bishop and told her that the policeman were not of assistance and she referred me to Tian Van Der Merwe who  came to Paarl and I tried means to go and talk to him.  With intention that this was going to be referred to the Parliament and perhaps be published.

REV XUNDU: Now in your talk you - in your statement you say this collaboration between the police and the PAC was very strong and you have made mention of Lalase.

MS SISHUBA: All these things happening - I was making telephone calls giving reports of what was happening in the location until I met Pepper Green from Argus and she was interested and asked me to give her the report about what was happening and I did exactly that.  Meanwhile some people had been detained, taken to Q5 at Dekana's home where they were beaten before they were locked into cells.
 Lalase had a wound and they did not release him, he had been beaten by the police.  All this was happening in Ms Tekana's house in Q5.  In Q25 ...[intervention]

REV XUNDU: Was she a resident in the location?

MS SISHUBA: Yes, her sons were members of the AZANJU.

REV XUNDU: So they assaulted Lalase and then what happened?

MS SISHUBA: Those who had been arrested with her were acquitted and Lalase had a wound just behind the ear.  So I approached other women that we should go to the head of the police to go and lay a charge against the policemen because we were of the opinion that they were not aware but the women were very afraid of being  detained.  
 So I took the elderly women and they agreed to go with me, such that some of them died - they are dead now.  So we went there so that - to show our concern and disturbance.  So we told - we talked to a policeman and ask for the head of the Riot Squad and then we were referred to Mr Willemse   who was  supposedly they had.  
 We were divided into two groups and we were standing there and we were telling them about the conflict in the location between the people and the police and we're asking that the police should not  accompany the youth, because this to was next to the police station and we were also that the police should intervene and they should not come to the township.  And we expressed our fear that there was going to be some people dying.

REV XUNDU: So what did Willemse say?

MS SISHUBA: No he was not interested,  he just said are you afraid of just a simple fourteen people, whereas we are not even aware of how many they were.  We didn't even know anything about AZANJA.

REV XUNDU: Is this Willemse still there?

MS SISHUBA: Yes, last month I saw him.  I think he's here in this police college, I know him.

REV XUNDU: Go on and tell us more about Popayi and Ndinisa and Veyi.

MS SISHUBA: So he went away without any thing from Willem.  A few days thereafter - that was the day when Mabridge died - I was still sleeping and them I was woken up and told that there was a child laying down there, but he was still alive.  But people were scared to go nearer this body.  So I woke up and dressed up and I saw Willemse standing next to this person, together with Simpi - another policeman from the location and another lady Ladia Kassie - who was a member of the PAC.  
 So I forced my way threw because I felt Ms Kassie to was not a police, so I asked the people to organize transport, so - as to take this child to hospital.   So when I got there - I can't tell what time he was laying there, apparently they wanted him to bleed to death.

REV XUNDU: So you say this black policeman was  from the location?

MS SISHUBA: Yes, he was from the location and I know him perfectly well.

REV XUNDU: Did he give any evidence thereafter?

MS SISHUBA: No - no I didn't ask anything from him.  So when I got back - I have seen some corpse in funerals but I could make out that this child was dead already at the time.  I didn't see any wound, I think it was at the back - there was only blood that I could see.
 And knowing this child and the parent Sue, I screamed but I controlled myself.  And he asked me whether I knew the person, I said yes and this is the result of your actions.  If he had listened to us this would not have happened.  So this is the result of all your actions.  We expected that this was going to happen.

REV XUNDU: And then your answer was that you were afraid of just fourteen people.

MS SISHUBA: He as angry with me and he decided to take my name and address down but they didn't do anything to me thereafter.

REV XUNDU: What was Ms Kassie doing at the time?

MS SISHUBA: She was standing, just watching.

REV XUNDU: So in your statement you - you have told us of certain things that you'd like the Truth Commission to do for you.

MS SISHUBA: In our attempts we phoned several people and including Minister Dullah Omar  who called us and we told him that the youth called it's self AZANJU.  He called their leader from Gauteng and they said they were going to talk to us as members of the UDF in a neutral venue but they were also scared of us.  So Mr Dally offered his house as the neutral venue and also transport so that we could meet there at Athlone and talk. 
 We were there but only a few of the AZANJU came and he - a member distanced himself from all this and from that time onwards they said they were PAC members.  In fact I would say this - these young children were confused, they didn't even know with what organization they should identify with.  At first they were not PAC members but later  on they said they were.

REV XUNDU: So now you say what would you like this Commission to do with Willemse?

MS SISHUBA: We would like a - the Truth  Commission to call Willemse because he has got a lot of information.

REV XUNDU: So I suspect that he could have had a meeting with this young boys?

MS SISHUBA: We do talk with these boys as we are in the same community and we would like that they should be asked why they did all this.

REV XUNDU: I think this is the most important part because it means that you want to reconcile with these people and establish peace.  Is there any other wish you have to forward to this Commission?

MS SISHUBA: Nothing - nothing more, I've got nothing more to say.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I have a question to pose to you Boniswa, you first said that it all started with the burning of a shack that belonged to Madubula.  Who was Madubula, who burnt Madubula's shack, how was the shack burnt.

MS SISHUBA: We just heard that it got burnt as a result of the gas cylinder and there was no reason why they had to think that he - the UDF was responsible for the burning.  We had not heard that they had come together but all they did was to kill the members of the UDF.  There had been no conflict before all this, all we knew was that the shack got burnt as a result of gas.  Unless they perhaps have another story and I wish they could come forward to tell us what had happened actually.  All I can say is that they were in the company of policemen.