Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-19

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I refer here to a false flag operation.  When we, as I have said, for example, this askari would, for arguments sake, be released from jail, he becomes an askari and I want to infiltrate him, for example, in an area like the Jeppy Station, Western Cape or Barberton.  I then draw up a profile of that person, does he know that area, is he coming from that area, do these people know that he had been apprehended, that he was an askari and, for arguments sake, Barney was standing on a station and he was waiting for other liberation fighters.  Those people were also well trained and had a good intelligence network.  They recognised him, first of all, and they recognised him as an askari and they would shoot him or something would happen to him and the people on the ground had to manage it very well to prevent these type of circumstances.  Our person should have the advantage and you had to know your environment before launching these type of operations.

MS PATEL: How would this, then, be effected?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Do you mean the Guguletu incident?

MS PATEL: No, no, just generally, on general principles.  You have used the example of an askari being thrown into an area, possibly, that he may not know well or that he may be recognised.  How would you, from your side, ensure his safety?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Firstly, if this was a short-term operation, you get different pseudo operations, I would have deployed other members too, but I would have asked the security branch members what information do you have regarding freedom fighters that have come in and I would have given him a weapon as well, a legal weapon so that he could operate with that.  So, any operation has its risks, things can go wrong.  If those people identify him then they can possibly shoot him or they will not appear for the meeting.  So, it had its risks.

MS PATEL: And you would minimise your risks by trying to place your own people in the vicinity and doing your research before the person is sent in?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, I would try to minimise my risks, but these risks always remain, the co-operation of the people doing it, if that person sees that he does not want to carry on, then we withdraw him.  As in Mbelo's case, we withdrew him, because he thought his life was in danger.  I thought he was not, he is not expandable, so he was just a human being, that is why I withdrew him.  This is the type of thing that one always had built in.

MS PATEL: So, if I understand you correctly, operations were never managed in a hodge podge manner, that proper measures were taken to ensure the protection of your people.  Is that correct?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: As far as it is possible and viable, yes, I attempted to control it properly.

MS PATEL: All right.  If we turn to page 121, paragraph 15, that is next page.  Oh, sorry, no, that is 103, 103, mine has been paginated, the next page.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: 103?

MS PATEL: Yes, sorry.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Okay, sorry.

MS PATEL: The next page.
	Mention is made of use of cameras and just if one generally looks at the nature or the information that is laid out in this document about you, your members being placed at a scene, perhaps, a hour before the time, the use of cameras, proper protective measures, placing people at proper points.  Would this amount to or would this be akin to a planning for an ambush?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, if I can explain an ambush.  We would be there a few hours before the time.  If you want to arrest people or you see this, view this as an ambush, you would be there a few hours before the time, because people could say they are coming at two o' clock and they come at one o' clock.  I also believed to play for time both sides, rather be too early than too late.  So, that is, those were normal practices.

MS PATEL: So, you would arrive at a scene a couple of hours before whatever it is that you are waiting for to happen would happen?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, that specific morning, I cannot remember what they said, but it was before five o' clock, it was, we came there at about 03H30.  Somebody could be late and you have to be in place in a disciplined manner.

MS PATEL: And assuming the incident is meant to take place at a particular time and it does not take place at that time, you would wait for a while?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, you would wait a while.  You waited and we drove around in the vicinity.  Every case has its merits and is dealt with on its own.

MS PATEL: What, in your times, would be "a rukkie"?  How long would that be for you?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: In this case, for example, it can be 15 minute, half a hour, a hour.  The people in the bush were lying quietly for a longer period of time, because we could not just let them come out, but the people in the vehicles had to start moving around, because the civilians were going to work and in order not to attract attention, we had to drive around.  So, every case has its merits.  In this case I do not think that it was very long after that that we started moving around.

MS PATEL: Okay, but the people who were placed in the bush and in the surrounding areas were given instructions to wait for a while longer.  Is that fair?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, I believe that that could have been the instruction.

MS PATEL: Okay and you accept, Sir, that the incident of the shooting started shortly after the time that the bus was meant to pass had passed?  So, at that stage all your men would still have been in place or sorry, ja, sorry, I take that back.  That most of the men in the surrounding areas would have still been in place.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, they were still in place and if it, they were all on the ground, they were not all in the bus, so they were driving around and seeing, looking for the bus.

MS PATEL: At which, at what time, can you recall, did you see Mr Maluleka on the scene?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: As I have said, it could have been after 07H35, half past seven, 07H45, etcetera.  If you can say that I have given a specific time, but it is more or less in that vicinity.

MS PATEL: Is it not sooner than that?  Is it not before 07H30?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That could possibly be.  In my statement, I cannot remember where I said that I saw him.

MS PATEL: If I recall, your statements made initially, they were just about past, I think most of the members said 07H20, 07H25, is when the incidents ... (intervention).

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, more or less.

MS PATEL: Okay, so this is barely ten minutes, ten minutes after the bus would have passed?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Every situation is dealt with on the ground.  There are guidelines, but it is not to say that they are, these guidelines are followed specifically.  We might have left eight minutes afterwards, driven around in the vicinity.  So, every situation differs.  This is just guidelines.

MS PATEL: But this was an important operation, Mr Bellingan.  This was your opportunity after months of working, after having sent Mr Mbelo, Mr Mbelo having been pulled out, after lots of money, lots of resources having been spent, this was your opportunity to, as you say, arrest seven people.  Why would you have moved out within ten minutes or started moving around within such a short space of time?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: We just decided that we were going to drive around in the vicinity and I will stick to that.  It was at that moment that the men started driving around.

MS PATEL: Would you then accept that whilst you were driving around, you were still prepared for action, so to say?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, I would have believed that if anything had happened, we would have been prepared.  Only when you reach a safe place do you become calm again.  While you are in a vicinity, you are always ready for action and the police vans were attacked in Guguletu while riding, driving in single file, so you are always tense and you are ready for any situation.