Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-23

MR BRACHER: You see, you said in your evidence however "ons moet die mense verhoed om by die stembusse uit te kom" we want to prevent the people from getting to the polling booths.  Now what did the Germiston bombing have to do with that, how did that prevent people from voting?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, it was said to us that the bomb would create so much chaos and panic that the people would fear to go to the polling booths.

MR BRACHER: Well they'd have a fear of going to taxi ranks in Germiston, that's all they'd fear from your bomb?

CHAIRPERSON: And perhaps to a bank.

MR BRACHER: Perhaps to a bank - why would that prevent them from voting?  Why didn't you choose voting booths?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I was not part of the planning of the bombs, where they must be planted.

J H VLOK: No, but when you set the fuse you knew you were going to kill.  When you put the battery and the two pieces of wire together you knew who you were going to kill - absolutely random, innocent people.  Why did you do it?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I acted on behalf of the AWB and I believed that we will get a Volkstaat and that this bomb that I detonated would prevent people from voting in the elections.  The elections would be postponed if possible.

MR BRACHER: But if that is your intention, why not target voting booths or something to do with the election?  That's your best target if that's you aim?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, that was my instruction and I executed this order or followed this order.

MR BRACHER: Whose instruction was it to target random, innocent people in Germiston?  It wasn't Barnard.

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I was told there at Koesterfontein by Cliffie that I must go with in the Germiston bomb - I wasn't part of the planning, I cannot give account for what was said.

MR BRACHER: Who chose the target?

J H VLOK: Mr Chairperson, I was not present - of where the bomb must be planted.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you where to plant this bomb?

J H VLOK: Cliff said that it must be in Germiston and that Etienne le Roux will drive the guide vehicle to indicate specifically where we must plant this bomb.

MR BRACHER: Who told you that that was the point where you must arm the bomb?

J H VLOK: Etienne le Roux, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Now, why in your application and in your evidence in chief did you hide the fact that you were a Captain in the Ystergarde?  Would you like to look at it?  It doesn't appear in your written application at all, it didn't appear in your evidence, it came out by chance in the cross-examination.

MS VAN DER WALT: With respect Sir,it cannot be said that he hid the fact - his evidence was that we're trying to save time - we confirm that was said in here and in this first question that was put to him what his rank was, he said - if it was not in his application it is not saying that he hides the fact.  How can such a statement be made?

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs van der Walt, I do not know what form you used but if we look at the usual form, page 81, 82, question 7.

MS VAN DER WALT: It says a member of the Ystergarde, it did not say he was a Captain but it is a reason to say that he hid the fact.

MR BRACHER: ...[inaudible]

MS VAN DER WALT: Is this also not splitting hairs again - the applicant said that he was a Captain.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me put it this way - Mr Vlok, why is there any specific reason why you did not mention in your written application that you are a Captain of the Ystergarde?

J H VLOK: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: There was a reason because you wanted to give the impression that you were a simple of the Ystergarde taking orders from Koper Myburgh.  He had no higher rank than you, did he?

J H VLOK: Please repeat the question?

MR BRACHER: The reason you hid the fact that you were a Captain was because you wanted to give the impression that you were an ordinary member, taking orders from people above you like Koper Myburgh who was not in fact of a higher rank?

J H VLOK: That is not the case Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Is it correct that Myburgh was not of a higher rank than Captain?

J H VLOK: Are you talking about Abraham Myburgh?

MR BRACHER: Ja, what was his rank?

J H VLOK: He was a Captain.

MR BRACHER: And were you one of the lucky few to know what Barnard's rank was?

J H VLOK: Please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know ...[intervention]

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson, Cliff Barnard.

CHAIRPERSON: What was he?

J H VLOK: He was a Captain in the Ystergarde and a Colonel in the Kommandos.

MR BRACHER: Now one of the reasons you decided to join the AWB was because you were shocked by the fact that the ANC had attacked innocent Boere, is that right?

J H VLOK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Why were you shocked by that fact particularly?

J H VLOK: At that stage, Chairperson, the ANC was not yet in power and they caused acts of terrors in order to obtain their objectives and therefore I was shocked that they would have taken the lives of innocent people because in the process in which they believed was correct and therefore I also wanted to be ready - I also wanted to be trained in order to protect my people and to protect myself, Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Now that's right - you wanted to be an instructor so that you can defend your people, is that right, against these attacks on innocent people?

J H VLOK: To train them to enable them to defend themselves against these attacks.

MR BRACHER: Yes, you wanted to instruct people how to defend themselves against these attacks on innocent people, is that right?

J H VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: And you said in paragraph 4 "the courses entailed drills, baton handling, weapon handling etc."  Paragraph 4 - that etc. does not include the making of bombs, does it?  You had no instruction in the making of bombs because when you said you met Koekemoer you didn't know anything about bombs?

J H VLOK: Chairperson, Koekemoer himself did not know how to make a bomb, that's why Koekemoer asked me to help me mix the diesel and fertiliser.

MR BRACHER: The "opleiding" which the instructions and courses that you attended and gave on behalf of the AWB did not include the making of bombs, car bombs?

J H VLOK: No, Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.
	I don't quite understand you last answer, you say Koekemoer himself did not know how to make bombs, that's why he asked you to mix the diesel?  That's what I picked up over the translation.  Just repeat that?

J H VLOK: No, then I contradicted myself.  Koekemoer was the man who built the bomb, he was the man with the expertise - that's what Barnard told me.  Koekemoer was the man with the expertise and he makes the bombs and because of that he gave me instruction to help with the other men to mix the fertiliser and diesel.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you misunderstand with the question the lawyer asked you and then you gave another answer because now you've changed your whole answer?

J H VLOK: I don't know what I said before but that's what I meant Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The previous time you said that Koekemoer himself did not know how to build bombs and therefore he asked you to mix the fertiliser.

MS VAN DER WALT: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: I listened to his Afrikaans words.  Mr Malan also says that I am correct, we heard you correctly the first time.  All I want to know is - Mr Brasher's question now - what did you misunderstand and then you gave the wrong answer which differs so much with the answer you've just given now?

J H VLOK: Then I just contradicted myself, Chairperson and I apologise.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's accept that you contradicted yourself or what led to the fact that you contradicted yourself?  What did you misunderstand, what did you understand with regards to the question Mr Brasher asked you?

MS VAN DER WALT: ...[inaudible]