Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-11

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: So item 14 on page 8, bundle A1, which has the Edendale operation, should actually be after this Klein incident, correct?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right, yes.

MR DEHAL: Okay.  Now will you then please read (i) to (vii) of paragraph 4 into the record.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: The handgrenade attack on the house of Mr Klein, 1st of May 1986.
"Shortly after comrade McBride had recruited me and trained me in the use of arms and educated me politically, he instructed me to carry out certain operations against collaborators and Security Force personnel.
		Comrade McBride had discussed with me a number of targets, including attacks on an armed personnel carrier, police casspir and the attach on policemen, the attack on Labour Party collaborators and the attack on police reservists.
		I selected Klein as the target.  I knew that Klein was a police reservist and closely associated with the Labour Party.  At that stage police reservists were viewed as collaborators and Klein was known to be an influential member of the Labour Party.
		I confirm Mr McBride's testimony in regard to Mr Klein and confirm that this was also my view at the time.  
		One of the reasons I chose Klein as a target is that logistically I would not need to arrange transport to carry out this operation.  Additionally I was aware of the room in the Klein's house, which was his bedroom.
		I went to the house with Antonio du Preez, in the early hours of the morning.  As instructed by comrade McBride, I threw the handgrenade through the window.  I had one handgrenade and Antonio du Preez had another.  Mr du Preez' handgrenade did not enter the house.  The handgrenade that I threw exploded within the house and that which Antonio du Preez threw, exploded on the outside of the house. I accept that there was injury to both Mr and Mrs Klein.  Mr McBride had not participated in this operation.  
		I am also aware that Mrs Klein featured prominently within Labour circles, in support of her husband who was a Labour Party member.  Even if Mrs Klein was not closely and actively involved in the Labour Party, I would still have gone on with this operation, in view of Mr Klein as a legitimate target.  In that case, Mrs Klein, being caught in the crossfire, would have been an acceptable justifiable casualty."

MR DEHAL: Now you say that before you carried out this operation you had information, presumably from your intelligence, as to which room in the house of the Klein's was his bedroom.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

MR DEHAL: And is that the room that you threw the handgrenade into, through the window?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right, yes.

MR DEHAL: Did you know whether Mr Klein had any children?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I did.

MR DEHAL: Would they have been about the same age as you?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: No.

MR DEHAL: We heard the other day about Marson Sharpley, who was friendly with Klein's son.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: I think that's Marcel Andrews.  Thank you.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, we heard that here.

MR DEHAL: Do you know that son?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that you knew that the Kleins had children and that they, you said they weren't the same age as you.  How many children did they have and what was their approximate ages at the time of the incident on the 1st of May, do you know?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Mr Chairman, I don't know their ages, but the one, his daughter is much older than me and she wasn't living at home at the time and his son who's younger than me, was living at home at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: And that son was the one referred to by Marcel Andrews.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: Did you have information that these children occupied a separate bedroom?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, I did have that info.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  You then deal with the Edendale Hospital operation, where Gordon Webster was removed, and that you say occurred on the 4th of May 1986.

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes.

MR DEHAL: You seek amnesty for this operation. And this is dealt with in bundle A1, page 8 on item 14, correct?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: That's right.

MR DEHAL: Will you please read the entire two pages dealing with Edendale Hospital.
MR LECORDIER
"Sometime towards the end of April 1986, Antonio du Preez and I were training in the use of AK47s.  Comrade McBride had so trained us.  He advised us that we will shortly be embarking on an operation in which we may be asked to use these weapons.
		Shortly before the 4th of May, on a date I'm not too sure of, comrade Robert informed me he would shortly be calling upon me to make myself available for an operation.  
		As mentioned, we operated strictly on the need-to-know discipline and all I advised him of was that I would be available within the next few days and did not ask any questions about the operation.
		If I recall correctly, at about 4.30pm on the 4th of May 1986, comrade McBride called me to his father's workshop, where other comrades were present and we received a briefing on the Edendale operation. A map was used to advise us each of our respective task, duties, in this operation.
		We then left in two separate vehicles to the Edendale Hospital.  I travelled with comrade McBride and others.  We travelled in a blue van. 
		When we got to Pietermaritzburg we had to wait until visiting hours were over.  And since we had enough time a reconnaissance was carried out on this operation.  
		Comrade Robert drove onto a dirt road to a fence outside the hospital and again explained to me my role.  We also went to a takeaway where we had coffee and tea.
		When we later got to Edendale Hospital to carry out the operation, my task was to cut a hole in the fence and to remain at the vehicle with the bonnet open, to create the impression that it was broken down.  So as not to draw any undue suspicion to it.
		Comrade Robert McBride and Derek McBride had entered the hospital premises and after a short while I heard gunshots.  Shortly thereafter a person was brought, wheeled on a stretcher to the vehicle I was at.  I later learnt that this person is Gordon Webster.  He was introduced to me shortly after the operation as Steven Mkhize.
		Comrade Webster was then placed into the vehicle and we drove to meet Greta Apelgren.  We did not meet her.  I was to have handed over the firearms to a Welile Khumalo, alias Themba, for him to safely bury them.
		Comrade McBride then decided to drive to Wentworth, which we did.  At Wentworth, comrade Webster was placed into the Factorama(?) premises.  I assisted in looking after the ailing Webster.  I removed my socks and placed it on Webster's legs, massaged his feet and generally kept him comfortable.  Later comrade Robert took me to my home by car."

MR DEHAL: Thank you.  Mr Lecordier, you then deal with the Why Not/Magoo's incident which took place on the 14th of June 1986 at the Marine Parade.  You seek amnesty for this operation, correct?

MATTHEW LECORDIER: Yes, that's correct.