Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-10

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And as far as you recall, he was not present on this particular incident?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot put him there, no.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Right.  You had sight of the S&T form being referred to here.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And do you agree with me that there is no S&T form for any Aubrey Ngadi?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I would have to take your word for that, because I don't recall whose names were on those S&T forms.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: All right.  I am going to suggest to you that in so far as had been mentioned, albeit on the side line by Mr Bosch, that there was a Sergeant Aubrey Ngadi, my instructions are that he was certainly not involved in this at all.  He was not there?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I would have to concede to that, I don't remember the name and I don't remember him being at the scene.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Did Holmes, when you made Exhibit B at any stage suggest to you who else were present on the day in question?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Yes, as we went along in the statement, as I recall he would say was X or was Y there or who else was there, whatever.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And how did the name Spyker Mhieza come up for the first time, was it something that you had mentioned out of your own, or was it something that was suggested to you?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I cannot recall how it came up the first time.  It might have been just from the general discussion about us operating in Durban.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: By that token, could it have been that Holmes have mentioned Spyker Mhieza?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: It is possible, yes.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: All right.  As you think back here today, do I understand your evidence correctly that there is a vagueness in your memory as to as you sit here today, as to whether or not Mhieza could have been present?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Most definitely.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: My instructions from Mhieza is that he was not present and he did not take any part.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: It is quite possible.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: All right.  Now let us just deal with the reporting back.  You would remember that you were asked about the whole system of reporting back, whether it be in general or in this specific case, instance.
	Let's deal with it in general.  Was it your experience that a reporting back was done between your Commanding Officers at Vlakplaas and the Commanding Officers of the Units to which you would be called to render assistance, ie in Port Natal division, there would have been report back between Taylor and De Kock?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: At that level, yes.  I believe there would have been report back there, but from more and likely than from the Vlakplaas people on the ground, the Head of the Unit operating in a division, would give feedback.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: All right, you were not one of those?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: No.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Would it certainly accord with your experience of how things worked, the line of command or the chain of command that the Officer, the local guy who had enlisted your assistance, that he would have to report back also to your Commander at Vlakplaas?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Yes, I would have to concede that there would be contact at that level, yes.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Right.

MR MALAN: I know, please Mr Rosslee, don't concede.  Your question was, what is your knowledge?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: My knowledge is there was contact at that level Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: You made it quite clear that the local Unit going down to Natal, would have had to give feedback, to report to the Commander at Vlakplaas.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: As far as your response to the question about Captain Taylor reporting to De Kock, you say it not to emphatically, you simply say there would have been but you have no knowledge of such feedback?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I know there was contact there.  If it was specific feedback or reporting back, that I cannot stipulate.

MR MALAN: No, but clearly there was contact in the sense that the request would have come to Vlakplaas.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Definitely.

MR MALAN: But as to the activities of the Unit coming down, why do you say that there would have been a report back of the Unit's activities by Taylor to Vlakplaas?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: That is not what I said Mr Chairman.

MR MALAN: You see, I just wanted to get clarity in my mind on that because I think that is where the question led to.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Mr Malan, with respect not, I asked on a general level simply.  You confirm that it was your evidence that in this particular case, you don't know anything about it?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I don't.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Yes, right.  It was simply put on that level sir.
	Right, as far as the discussions were concerned, and you would remember that you were asked as to the names of the two people that were mentioned, involved in the trial, do I have your evidence correct, that you can't specifically remember the names that was mentioned?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I couldn't remember the names until Captain Holmes, or the name, the deceased's name, until Captain Holmes actually showed me or told me what his name was.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Do you confirm that you in any event, neither yourself nor McCarter were ever involved as far as you know, in any matter regarding Pumeso (indistinct)?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: I have no knowledge of that name.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Right, I would like to discuss with you the form of the order.  You would remember that yesterday with McCarter, the whole aspect of the order was discussed, whether it was a request or an order or a command as in the normal sense of a military command.
	Would you care to elaborate as to what sort of form the order took in this particular case and maybe in general.  Let's start with this particular case.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: My recollection is that Major Taylor requested, after giving us the background to Mr Bhila, requested us to eliminate him.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Right.  How did you perceive this request, as what?  Was it simply a request that you could deny or that you could decline to?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Well, given the background that he had given us, and the type of person Major Taylor was, well respected and everything else, I wouldn't have declined it.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Did you, yourself, and I know you can't speak for McCarter, but from what you observed, did you regard that request as an order?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Yes, I did.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Did you regard yourself to be bound by that?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Most definitely.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Now, if the Commission will bear with me for a moment.

MR MALAN: If you are not pursuing that, let me ask the question again, because I asked it earlier.
	Earlier you gave evidence that such orders had to be cleared with Vlakplaas command, so why would you obey and implement a request which you perceived to be an order that you believe you were definitely bound by it, without referring it to Vlakplaas?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: The only answer I can give to that is if Major Taylor was issuing that order to us, it had been cleared already.  I wouldn't be privy to that.

MR MALAN: No please Mr Rosslee, that wasn't your evidence earlier.  You said if you would have had any orders from the local branch where you were on routine duties, you had to clear that and would have cleared that with the command at Vlakplaas.

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: If I remember correctly Mr Chairman, I said that standard operating procedures would have been that it had to be cleared.

MR MALAN: Exactly, standard operating procedures.  Now, why do you say if that was not done, without those procedures, why would you have believed yourself to be bound by the order simply of Taylor without confirmation at the level of Vlakplaas?

ADRIAN STEVEN ROSSLEE: Number one is, I might not have been privy at that stage.