Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It was in the morning in this instance, everybody reported about their duties with regards to different organisations that we handled.  As we left, Coetzee said to myself and Mamome we must follow him - Lieutenant Shaw was present.  Now, they wanted to inform us but they were not sure as what to tell us.
	They stared at each other - Lieutenant Shaw nodded telling - giving a message to Coetzee.  I do not know what is it that he was nodding at.  Coetzee started talking, he said: "Motsamai, Mamome, I want you to go to Winnie Mandela's home, that house must be burnt.  Whilst listening, himself told us that: "you must know there isn't a soul there", we would carry our task and said: "burn the house down".   Then he asked Shaw, he said: "Terry, do you have something with you".  Shaw said: "no, we will talk".  We left together with Mamome and went upstairs.
	They called Mamome whilst we were having tea - Mamome went to them.  After some time he came back - he came to me, he said: "Boyzi, they forgot to give us money, R20,00".  I reminded him because they had - they forgot already, Lieutenant Shaw, Coetzee and Mamome.  I said: "Do you still recall that we tapped 20 litres of petrol from a certain vehicle, Datsun Laurel that was auctioned, it wouldn't be a police vehicle again".  He said: "I forgot about that".  
	I asked him: "How can you forget that because we were given instructions or commands that we must go and tap the petrol from that car and I must put it in safe place so that we can use it when we go and attack houses".  I said to him: "You knew and you were present with them when they said they will take ...[inaudible] complete documents and make as if the petrol that we tapped from this was poured in this car".  I can still recall that, then we went there to find out what's taking place.
	Colonel Coetzee told Shaw: "Give them the money" - I took the money, it was R20,00.  They told us we must do that job.  I will never forget.  Winnie's file was on Coetzee's table.  Before I proceed, let me tell you when I refer to the file of Mrs Winnie, what kind of file that was.  All the comrades had files at the office, all of them had files, even organisations had files with numbers - there was an index. When you call somebody by his or her name then we were told: "Go and get so and so's file - you go through the index if you don't know his number, you would find the number in the index".  It was in alphabetical order, A up to Z.
	Now, this one of Mrs Winnie and others in authority, AZAPO, APLA, African National Congress, SACP had volumes.  This means it was extracted from a certain volume and it was put on the table.  He told us that - now I'm getting straight to the point.  He said to us: "this woman is troublesome, we've tried all angles and she's everywhere, now I just want you to go and scare her a little bit".  They feared this woman, they didn't want to meet her.  There wasn't an officer who wanted to talk to Mrs Winnie.
	I asked Mamome: "when these people say that Mrs Winnie's not there, what is it that they mean"? - he said: "she left for Johannesburg".  We went upstairs to our office until we knocked off duty.  Midnight he arrived in a car, I had already bought the petrol.

ADV DE JAGER: Who arrived in a car?