Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-08-20

MR MBANDAZAYO: Before you made the statement do you still remember what did he tell you, before you made the statement to him?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: (Inaudible - beginning of side B of tape 2).

MR MBANDAZAYO: That you have a right not to make a statement, you can make your statement in Court, all that procedure.  You have a right to an attorney before you make that statement.  Did he explain those things before you, did he follow that procedure?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And that you opted not to obtain any legal services of an attorney?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is not so.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What did you tell him?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I did not say anything to him.  I told him about the attorney.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You told him about the attorney.  Did you tell him that you want an attorney before you make a statement, let me put it that way?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What did he say to you?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: He said to me I have the right to have an attorney.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Then what did you do after that?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I did not do anything.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did he not ask you who was your attorney or do you have an attorney or you want to be appointed one, or do you want somebody to be appointed to assist you?  What did he say to you?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: He did not say anything about that, the attorney.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.  Let's proceed and go to the statement.  As I'm reading the statement then I'll always point to the other statement which you made before the Magistrate.  Mr Chairman you will bear with me, it's difficult to - I'll make mistake as I'm reading the handwriting, don't get it.  "I would like to make the following statement:  Two weeks before the end of June in 1993 myself, Thebo, Sipho and Roger met at Swartman Shimee's house in Monyakeng in Wesselsbron.  Thebo asked me ...",.  Okay, let me before we proceed, for the benefit of the Committee, is it Thebo, who is this Thebo?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is Oupa Khotle.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And Sipho?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is Mr Bhani.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And Roger?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Silimela Ngesi.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.  "Thebo asked me if I own a shack.  I told him that I do have one.  On the 18th of June 1993 Thebo asked me to go and hide weapons in my shack and I agreed".  Can you tell the Committee about this weapons which Thebo asked you to take to your shack?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is not correct here.  I fabricated this evidence so that they would understand me.

MR MBANDAZAYO: "The same day, that night myself and Sipho buried four weapons with magazines in my shack on Monyakeng in Wesselsbron.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you talked about the other weapons and the same day now since, correct me if I'm wrong, that there's another set of weapons which came with Sipho.  Can you explain that?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No that is not correct even here.  I said so because I wanted that the police should understand what I wanted to tell me so that they would release me.

MR MALAN: Sorry Mr Mbandazayo why do you say a second set.  Isn't he referring to the same weapons?  He asked him on the 18th whether he had a shack, whether he would hide the weapons and that he consented to doing so.  He said in that evening Sipho and himself took the four guns, magazines ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It's a different one to this one.

MR MALAN: Oh you're referring to the first statement?

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's right.

MR MALAN: Apology then.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman I'm the person who did not come clearly that, I'm sorry Mr Chairman I'm the one who did not come up clearly about this.

MR MALAN: No the Chair did hear so, the mistake is mine.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.  "Now on Saturday 3rd of June or July, it's the 3rd of June at approximately between seven and eight o'clock that night Thebo and Sipho and myself again buried or dug out the weapons and took it to Shimee's house.  At Shimee's house it was myself, Thebo, Roger, Sipho, Rider and two unknown black men.  Thebo gave me R10,00 to go and buy cigarettes.  When I came back I found only Thona and Vinger at the house.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mazete you are saying in this statement that Thebo, Sipho came and you dug up the same weapons and you took them to Shimee's house.  Let me before, for the benefit maybe the Committee will want to know who is Shimee.  Is there any person by the name Shimee?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, who was he?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: As I've explained later that Shimee was the Chairperson of the PAC branch in Monyakeng Township.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So Shimee's the same as Andrew you referred to in one of your statements, that is the Chairman?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee about this 3rd July incident where you went to dug up the weapons and took them to the Chairman's house?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is not correct even there.  I just added on the statement so that my evidence before the police would be understandable and so that they will be able to release me.  That is the ploy I did at that time.

MR MALAN: Can you please explain to me if you elaborate on your evidence for them to release you, why would they release you if you tell them all this?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I thought that would be the statement which will be satisfactory to them.

MR MALAN: Yes but it's satisfactory to get a conviction, not to release you, from their perspective?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: That is where I do not know because that would be their position, not mine.

MR MALAN: Are you saying, just for me to be clear in my mind, that you thought if you told them that you participated in some way in a robbery and a killing and dealing with arms that were illegally held, that they would say fine thank you for your statement goodbye, go your good way and may you be well.  Is that what you thought?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No.

MR MALAN: Then why would they release you?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: Not that much for them to release me but to let me not continue with their torture.

MR MALAN: Before you continue tell me who's Rider?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I do not know a Rider.

MR MALAN: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thanks Mr Chairman.

ADV SOGODI: Sorry just on that point, what do you mean you do not know him.  You mentioned him in your statement?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I'm surprised where that name came from in my statement.

ADV SOGODI: You mean there was no person called Rider that was present or you just mentioned a name which you don't know?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: He, I did not mention that name when I made that Statement before the police.

ADV SOGODI: I don't understand how it came to be here in your statement?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman be of assistance.  The Committee what it wants is that - let me put it like that - is there any person you know by the name Rider?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: No.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now how did it come that - that's what they want - that there is a name Rider in your statement, yet you don't know any person by that name.  In fact Mr Chairman if I may add is that this, it seems as if it's one name, because there's no comma.

CHAIRPERSON: Sipho Rider?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sipho Rider this - can you be able to explain that to the Committee?

GEORGE THABANG MAZETE: I don't know how it came about that that name should be in my statement, but what I remember whilst I was still in their offices, they showed me some photos.  There was that name on one photo.  When I wrote the statement I didn't mention Rider.