Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-19

MR WEBSTER: Is it correct that you perceived your role, that is now after the vehicle had, Cressida had moved away, you perceived your role purely as that of Intelligence basically, in other words you were to relay information of the location of this vehicle to the Reaction Unit so that they could put their plan into operation, is that not correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's what the part should have been, yes Sir.

MR WEBSTER: Was that not the instruction?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: The instruction was to - well there was a bit of pandemonium when the message was that they had left and we were not, we went to great pains to make sure that we could catch up with the vehicle, so that we could inform the team what was happening.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Wasserman, was that not the briefing, was that not the plan that you would act as Intelligence and once the vehicle with the suspects had been seen, you would then relay the information to the Reaction Unit, was that not the plan Sir?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Well, I didn't have Reaction Unit channels, so I couldn't relay to the Reaction Unit.  I could have relayed to perhaps the other Security Branch Members, Col Botha and Gen Steyn.

MR WEBSTER: Are you then saying that there was absolutely no plan of what was to be done once the vehicle was seen?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, I'm not saying that.  I, when we found and located the vehicle, we reported to Col Botha.

MR WEBSTER: My question to you is, there was no plan as to what was to be done once the vehicle had been seen?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: The plan was to report it back.

MR WEBSTER: Who to?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I told you, Col Botha.

MR WEBSTER: For what purpose?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Just to say we've got the vehicle visual.

MR WEBSTER: And thereafter, what was to be done?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: The Reaction Unit would eventually move in and try and effectively stop the vehicle and arrest the ...(intervention).

MR WEBSTER: And how would they know where you were?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Col Taylor - Col Botha must have radio contact with them.

MR WEBSTER: You don't know whether that was in fact the arrangement or not?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: He would have had a radio Sir.

MR WEBSTER: You do not know whether that in fact was the arrangement or not?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I wouldn't know Sir, but I know that he had a radio with him.  My radio was a Security Branch radio, it had no open channel.

MR WEBSTER: Mmm, I'm getting a picture of confused bungling and ineptitude on the part not only of the Reaction Unit but in particular your unity which was made up of a General, a Colonel, two Colonels, a Sergeant, well we won't talk about blacks there, we don't care about their ranks or whatever, but was that, is that the correct picture I get?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: In hindsight, things did go a little awry there, that is for certain, yes.

MR WEBSTER: You want the Commission to believe that for 2 and a half hours a General, I'm trying to see where he is, a General, Col Botha, Col Taylor,  no plan, no instruction coming out to you and that when the information comes, people just run helter skelter into vehicles and there's just a general pandemonium, is that the correct picture?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Sir.

MR WEBSTER: But there's nothing else that you've said which seems to suggest any order or any plan.  Is that not so?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, Mr Chairman, there was a plan.  The Reaction Unit were to do the rest.

MR WEBSTER: I'm talking about the Special Branch, Mr Wasserman.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: The Special Branch were to 'surveil' the vehicle as best as possible and give the Reaction Unit the time and the task and the readiness to go forward.

MR WEBSTER: Mmm, which they did not do.  Is that not so?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It never got to that.  A shooting incident occurred before it got to that stage.

MR WEBSTER: Who was the first to shoot?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Col Botha shot first.

MR WEBSTER: And who was the second to shoot?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Lembede.

MR WEBSTER: Then who was the third to shoot?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Me.

MR WEBSTER: Who was the fourth to shoot?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No more idea Sir.

MR WEBSTER: As far as you recall, who was the fourth to shoot?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: It would have been Reaction Unit members, but personalities, no idea.

MR WEBSTER: You could see shooting coming out from Botha's vehicle, is that correct?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I could hear the shooting, I couldn't see.

MR WEBSTER: You could hear shooting from Botha's vehicle?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct Sir.

MR WEBSTER: You could see Lembede firing?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: You heard no other shooting except shooting from these vehicles of the Special Branch?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That was 9 mm shooting, I could that.

MR WEBSTER: You could clearly hear that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That is correct, Sir.

MR WEBSTER: You know the sound of an AK?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, I do.

MR WEBSTER: You never heard the sound of an AK?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No.

MR WEBSTER: I suppose you'd also know the sound of what's that Russian effective handgun?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Makarov.

MR WEBSTER: Makarov?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes.

MR WEBSTER: You didn't hear that either?  There was no shooting whatsoever coming from the suspects' vehicle?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Well ...

MR WEBSTER: That you heard?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, but Col Botha's car was very close to their car so ...(intervention)

MR WEBSTER: Mr Wasserman, ...(intervention)

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I am answering.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, could the witness just be allowed to finish the answer?

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question was, you heard no shooting coming from the suspects' vehicle?  That's the question as I understand it.

MR WEBSTER: Thank you Sir.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct.  I understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: And the answer to that was?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Two vehicles, side by side, one cannot tell if there's two metres between two vehicles, you cannot tell which vehicle the firing is actually coming from.

CHAIRPERSON: You couldn't say?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: No, you couldn't say, Sir.

MR WEBSTER: Mr Wasserman, I am amazed.  I'm amazed.  I'm shocked.  You have just said that the first person to start firing was Botha?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chairman, you've heard my evidence here.

MR WEBSTER: And you heard the firing coming from Botha's vehicle.  You've then said that Lembede was the second to fire because you could see him, he was in front of you and you said that you were the third to start firing because you know that you were firing and you heard no firing from the suspect vehicle.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: We ascertained that.

MR WEBSTER: Because the next firing that you heard was from the Reaction Unit, was that not what you said?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: That's what I said, Sir.

MR WEBSTER: Okay.

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Now, the firing for us in the VW, in the kombi, the firing from Col Botha, I believe W/O Lembede believed that was coming from the vehicle of the suspects.

MR WEBSTER: Lembede's dead, is he not?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: Yes, he was killed in action.   The ANC terrorists killed Michael Lembede in Umbumbulu.

MR WEBSTER: I'm not interested in that and I don't want us to talk about what went through Lembede's mind.  He's dead, let's leave him alone.  You have said you heard firing coming out from Botha and you have said Botha was the first to start firing.  I repeat it, you said the second was Lembede because you could see him firing.  You said the third was yourself and the fourth was the Reaction Unit.  Do you remember saying that?

LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: I remember.