Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-04-22

DEON MARTIN: During the day we gathered and we went to General Oelofse's small holding.  He told us to cut our hair short and he told me how he had been horrified by the ear which he had received.

MR MALAN: So therefore you had seen him before you and Kloppers had visited him again the next day?  Did you report any information?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, I believe so.

MR MALAN: I'm not asking whether you believe it, I want to know whether you had information.

DEON MARTIN: It was conveyed to me.

MR MALAN: By whom?

DEON MARTIN: By Kloppers.

MR MALAN: When did he tell you this?

DEON MARTIN: When we gathered on that day.

MR MALAN: Why did you go to Oelofse again on that afternoon after having reported to him?

DEON MARTIN: We were often at Oelofse's small holding.  We went there for the purpose of meeting as we always did, to find out what would happen next and he told us to conceal the Mercedes and so forth.

MR MALAN: You described it earlier as an order, wasn't that advice, to get rid of the Mercedes?

DEON MARTIN: He did not say it to me on one occasion only, on quite a number of occasions. I suppose one could have considered it as an order.

MR MALAN: No, when I say to you that it was an order, did you understand it as an order, to get rid of the Mercedes?

DEON MARTIN: Yes.

MR MALAN: Why didn't you do it because you had carried out all instructions?

DEON MARTIN: It was pointless to me to conceal the Mercedes.

MR MALAN: Therefore, regarding the order to apprehend ANC/SACP supporters, to identify such supporters and to kill such supporters was an order which you obeyed which you could not ignore.

DEON MARTIN: Correct.

MR MALAN: But you received an order to get rid of the Mercedes, something which is quite smaller and you didn't carry it out, but a much greater order to kill people you carried out because of the strength of the order?

DEON MARTIN: As I have already stated it seemed pointless to me to get rid of the Mercedes at that point.

MR MALAN: But that's my point.

DEON MARTIN: When we received the orders to kill people we were busy with the revolution according to Kloppers.

MR MALAN: And you carried out an order or did you simply believe in the revolution and do it because you believed it would contribute to the revolution?

DEON MARTIN: I believed in the revolution and I also carried out the orders which were given to me.

MR MALAN: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Martin, according to the records, I'll try to get the precise page, the age of the child is given as 13, do you have problems with that?

DEON MARTIN: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And I should also mention to you that according to the expert evidence given to the Court, this child was shot at a very close range and also that he had, apart from the fact - as I've already said, half his head was blown away or blown off, he had several other shot wounds.

DEON MARTIN: I cannot answer to the other wounds but I know he was shot with a shotgun.  They were close to him, they were not far from him, maximum of about two metres.

CHAIRPERSON: That can hardly be an accidental shooting.

DEON MARTIN: I did not say it was an accident.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Let us adjourn until 2 o'clock, I'm sorry I didn't realise that we are well beyond 1 o'clock.  We will start at 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

DEON MARTIN: (s.u.o.)

MR MALAN: Mr Martin, how long were you in Koevoet?

DEON MARTIN: Just a few months.

MR MALAN: How many months?

DEON MARTIN: Approximately 6.

MR MALAN: How long do you know Mr Kloppers?

DEON MARTIN: I met Mr Kloppers in the beginning of '93.

MR MALAN: How did you meet him?

DEON MARTIN: I had a butchery and he was a client of mine.

MR MALAN: Are you house friends?

DEON MARTIN: Yes.

MR MALAN: What was your relationship as friends?

DEON MARTIN: It was good, we played chess together, we braaied together, we had a good relationship.

MR MALAN: Social relationship?

DEON MARTIN: Yes.

MR MALAN: In this social relationship there was no hierarchy?

DEON MARTIN: No.

MR MALAN: You were at the same level?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, we were.

MR MALAN: So if you were not under his command then from time to time you would have taken initiative in your social relationship?

DEON MARTIN: Yes, for example I would have told him: "Let's play some chess" but I couldn't give just any instruction to him.

MR MALAN: No, I'm not talking about instruction, I'm talking about social: "Let's go to the movies, let's go for a picnic, let's play chess"?

DEON MARTIN: Yes.

MR MALAN: So he would have taken the same initiatives with you?

DEON MARTIN: Definitely.

MR MALAN: There was no relationship where the one was more important than the other?

DEON MARTIN: Not as friends, no.

MR MALAN: When you moved around in the AWB structures, would you have argued with him with reference to instructions, would you reason with him?

DEON MARTIN: No.  In certain instances he would have asked me to discuss something with him but I would not have opposed him in any manner.

MR MALAN: And the AWB relationship, if he gave you an instruction, would you carry it out always?

DEON MARTIN: Yes.

MR MALAN: You would not question it?

DEON MARTIN: Negative.

MR MALAN: Why then did you not carry out the instruction that was given to you by General Oelofse?

DEON MARTIN: Which order was this?

MR MALAN: To shave your hair, to take your moustache off?

DEON MARTIN: I did that.

MR MALAN: To sell your Mercedes?

DEON MARTIN: As I've said before to the Commission, my Mercedes was already identified in this incident and there was no need for me to hide it.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Miss van der Walt, are we taking this as Exhibit A?

MS VAN DER WALT: I would appreciate it as Exhibit A.

CHAIRPERSON: The document entitled
"Fase een"
and then:
"Kommando Offisiers Kurses AWB"
is admitted as Exhibit A, thank you.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you.
	You were asked about the revolution and you said that you believed that the revolution would continue, that was specifically when you were asked about the Mercedes and soforth, why did you say that you believed that the revolution would continue?

DEON MARTIN: At that stage some bombs exploded on the West Rand and in Pretoria itself and there was always something happening and therefore I believed this was part of the revolution.

MS VAN DER WALT: So it did continue?  It is not that it would continue but it did continue, bombs exploded in Pretoria and on the West Rand?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And this was under the command of Japie Oelofse?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the vehicles, I don't know if it's quite clear but at the scene after the incident occurred, you have testified that somebody shouted: "There's a car approaching" and the vehicle disappeared, what did you do after you heard that a vehicle was approaching?

DEON MARTIN: I could see that a vehicle was not approaching.  The road was open, I could see there was no vehicle approaching.  The Nissan Sentra of Andre Venter was used to transport these people but we stayed behind with the Mercedes at the scene.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is it at that stage when you picked up the shells?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: You did not leave the scene and come back, you did it at the same stage?

DEON MARTIN: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: The order as you interpreted it, it was put to you that: "What would have happened with the bodies if hundreds of people were shot dead", how did you interpret the order when it was said to you that there should be bodies?

DEON MARTIN: As I understood him, the Randfontein Commando, our Commando, we should attack a specified target which was the ANC/SACP Alliance and from there onwards we should leave.  It was just one blow and then leave, we shouldn't move around.