Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-07

CHAIRPERSON: But if the post mortem report does not indicate the firearm used, excepting for the shotgun, it doesn't exclude the possibility that an AK47 may have been sued?

MR STRYDOM: It does not exclude it, but I want to take it further by stating that in total in Boipatong, eight people died as a result of bullet wounds, three of those and that one can pick up from the post mortem reports, were shot with shotguns, three other people were shot in a house with a 9mm - cartridge picked up.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, just before we get to that, it would not, are you basing this on the reading of the post mortem report?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, the causes of death is stated, it will say in Afrikaans, a [bullet wound or stab wounds], I have counted all the [bullet] wounds in these reports.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Could you indicate to us how many gunshot wounds are reflected in the post mortem report?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, 12.  Let me just add again, 12.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)

MR STRYDOM: On these reports, there is an indication that 12 reports show that there are gunshots, yes, bullet wounds.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that in regard to one person?

MR STRYDOM: No, 12 bodies had gun wounds is them.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)

MR STRYDOM: Three of that 12 were ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, have you had sight of the post mortem report?

MR BERGER: I have not studied them, Ms Cambanis has studied them.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cambanis, have you had sight of the post mortem report?

MS CAMBANIS: I have, yes, I have.  I have not done this exercise.  I simply raised the question of the gun, whether an AK could or could not have been used.  I have not done the exercise, I cannot dispute what my learned friend is saying.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so as to make sure that at least if we have to record something, we have to record something that is common cause, could you perhaps during the break see what you could agree on, what is common cause from the post mortem report?

MS CAMBANIS: Yes, I can, we can do that.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, I will endeavour to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just indicate to them what it is that you want to place on record, and give them the opportunity to deal with it.

MR STRYDOM: What I want to place on record is that 12 people died inter alia of a result of being shot with firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Of that 12, three were shot with a shotgun.  Three people who lived in 765 Hlubi Street and I must state here, there is doubt if it is two or three, but I will state three, died inter alia of a result of bullet wounds and I also seek to get the admission that 9mm cartridges were picked up in that house.  Four people in Slovo Park died as a result of bullet wounds, and two other people died as a result of bullet wounds and those people are in the Boipatong area, not Slovo Park.  If that is all added together, then it adds to 12.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so far on we know the - my arithmetic is deserting me here, the nine people may well have been killed by means of an AK47?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, but I am excluding a further three people, in 765 Hlubi Street, because there were cartridges picked up in that house, 9mm cartridges, and there was evidence during this hearing about what happened in that house.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  And then giving you the benefit of the doubt then, then we are left with about six people who could have been killed by AK47's?

MR STRYDOM: Possibly, but four of those six have got Slovo Park addresses, so it is left with two people that could possibly be killed with inter alia AK47 bullets.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand that, yes.  Okay.

MS TANZER: If I may Chair, if my learned colleague able to say how many people were wounded as a result of gunshot wounds on this night in question, once he is putting the question of gunshots?

CHAIRPERSON: I think we can find out from him.

MR STRYDOM: Unfortunately there are no post mortem reports in that regard.  I won't be able to say that.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the J88?

MR STRYDOM: That I haven't got, but I can look at the evidence, I've got all the evidence in relation to the people that had been injured, and I will be able to state that as well, maybe not with total accuracy, that I will have to concede.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Ms Cambanis, will you therefore consider these matters that Mr Strydom has placed on record?

MS CAMBANIS: We will do that at tea time, thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you let us know?  You don't have to do that today, you can do that on Monday.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Nosenga, assuming for a moment that the figures that I have stated, is correct, I want to put to you that you couldn't have killed so many people with an AK47 as you are stating.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I don't know about that.  I am saying I shot people using an AK47.  I still maintain they were AK47's, these firearms were used.  I shot people.

MR STRYDOM: I want to put to you as a fact, that in close proximity, houses in close proximity to each other, not so many people died as you want to tell this Committee?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know about that, I am saying many people died, and some of them ran away.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from the people that you fired shots at and killed according to you in these five houses, did the other people that were with you, also kill people in those houses?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, there are some people who fired shots.  I know specifically the third if not the fourth house, from the first house.  In the first house, I am the one who fired shots, and I am not sure about the third or fourth house.

MR STRYDOM: If you are not sure, what are you not sure about?  What happened at the third or fourth house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am not sure how many of us went into those houses.  I am the first one to fire shots in the first house.

MR STRYDOM: The question is did you see in one of these five houses, that any other person in your company, killed people in those houses?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying yes, someone in the name of Dondo did fire shots.  You did ask me that question as to whether I alone fired shots, and I said others fired shots too.

MR STRYDOM: But do you know if he hit somebody with the shots he fired or don't you know?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Would you please repeat the question?

MR STRYDOM: You said Dondo also fired shots in the third or fourth house.  What I want to know is could you see if he hit someone with the bullets he was firing?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I heard a gunshot in the house and I was concentrating at the people that I was shooting.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know what weapon he was carrying?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, it is a small gun, I did indicate that I don't know the names.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you stop shooting after the fifth house?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I just stopped on my own, with an intention of using the bullets at Slovo Park, but others continued shooting on that very same street.  Others did not shoot of course, but others continued shooting right through Slovo Park, right through to Slovo Park.

MR STRYDOM: So the last shot you fired, was in the fifth house, and after that you fired shots again in Slovo Park, is that what you are saying?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say that you wanted to save the rest of your ammunition for Slovo Park?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, he did not ask me that question.  He wanted to know what I did from the fifth house.

CHAIRPERSON: After the fifth house, why did you stop shooting?  That was the question.  You give a lengthy answer, amongst which you said I wanted to save the rest of my ammunition for Slovo Park.  Now I want to find out from you, did you say that you wanted to save the rest of your ammunition for Slovo Park?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I said that.