Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-29

JOHANNES MNISI: As I've already indicated that the people who were responsible for this were two people, Lester and Pule, therefore Lester was no longer there since he was arrested, then I was just helping Pule so that McBride could drive back with the material, back to South Africa and the instruction came from Rashid that the comrades were going to be given the materials.

MR BERGER: You then assisted in packing the material into the vehicle and then comrade Robert left, is that correct?

JOHANNES MNISI: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Subsequently did you come to know about the operation that comrade Robert had carried out?

JOHANNES MNISI: Later, after the operation, in fact if I'm telling the truth, it was after he was arrested.

MR BERGER: You heard that comrade Robert had been arrested?

JOHANNES MNISI: I think it was after a week, he had been arrested, I don't remember quite well.

MR BERGER: Did you hear why he had been arrested?

JOHANNES MNISI: The information that I received was that it was the operation which he conducted on the 14th at the Why Not Bar.

MR BERGER: And also that it was a car bomb?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Subsequent to that operation, you say you didn't see comrade Robert again?

JOHANNES MNISI: No, I didn't.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Berger.  Mr Dehal, do you have any questions you'd like to put?

MR DEHAL: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  May I have leave to confer with my client briefly?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MR DEHAL: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I'm indebted to you.  Mr Mnisi, were there ever discussions between McBride, yourself and perhaps with Gordon Webster about ANC policies and guidelines?

JOHANNES MNISI: I don't remember because this was Dumakude's job.

MR DEHAL: And were there any discussions in which you were involved with McBride and perhaps Pule as well, relating to targets in South Africa?

JOHANNES MNISI: I don't remember.

MR DEHAL: Mr Mnisi, would you regard yourself, at that time, as having been Mr McBride's senior in the structures?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes, at that time.

MR DEHAL: And I take it you'd agree that you're familiar with Mr McBride's application for amnesty, which has been discussed with you and you support it?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes.

MR DEHAL: I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DEHAL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Dehal.  Ms Kooverjee, do you have any questions you'd like to put?

MS KOOVERJEE: None, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard, do you have any questions you would like to put?

MR RICHARD: Very few.

MR RICHARD: Mr McBride's legal representative put this question and correct me if I noted it wrongly, were there ever discussions regarding ANC policy and guidelines with Mr McBride and the reply I noted was
"I don't remember.  It was Lester Dumakude's job."
Was that your answer?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes, I'm saying I don't remember, but what I can remember is that we used to discuss things, but then I cannot be specific about what you want to get from me as to guidelines or whatsoever, but I do know that we used to discuss matters.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now, on what basis did you believe that Mr McBride was under Mr Dumakude's command, or control, or accountable to him?

JOHANNES MNISI: These two comrades in Botswana, they were responsible strictly for those things.

MR RICHARD: You say there were two comrades in Botswana responsible for those things.  My first question emanating from that, is what do you mean by those things?

JOHANNES MNISI: I'm referring to, they were receiving people who infiltrated Botswana, people who came from South Africa gong to Botswana, they would be received by Pule and Dumakude, those were the people who were giving them guidelines.

MR RICHARD: Now, so it was, my next question was who were they?  So you say it was Mr Dumakude and Mr Pule.

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now within the context of the time and in the situation in Botswana, would it be appropriate for somebody on the level of Mr McBride or Mr Webster, to report to persons above them, the two individuals you've just mentioned?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes, they were reporting to them, but most of the reports were directed to Rashid, but some of them, they used to give to Pule and Dumakude, but the person whom they used to report to was Rashid.

MR RICHARD: I realise that your involvement was very short lived.  Now when, at that time, ordnance, materials was given to an operative such as Mr McBride or Mr Webster, were they ever required to account for the use of their ordinance?

JOHANNES MNISI: Would you please repeat the last part of your questions?

MR RICHARD: Would they ever be required to explain what they used the equipment or materials they were given?  In other words report back on what happened to the weaponry?

JOHANNES MNISI: I don't think they were supposed to explain to us because it went this way.  The Commander will give instructions to them, therefore they will know what operations they are going to do.  There was no need for anyone to tell them.

MR RICHARD: Now, I'm summarising it and I'm compressing the earlier part of your evidence.  From what you said, I understand and I'd like you to confirm it if I understand it correctly.  You had no idea what the materials being packed into Mr McBride's vehicle were going to be used for?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes, I didn't know.

MR RICHARD: Now, what sort of vehicle did you pack them into?

JOHANNES MNISI: I think it was an old Ford.

CHAIRPERSON: A sedan, a motor car, or was it a panel van or a bakkie?

JOHANNES MNISI: A bakkie, an old bakkie, Ford.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now was there anything particular about where weapons could be stored in that vehicle?

JOHANNES MNISI: Would you please repeat, I can't hear.

CHAIRPERSON: I think there's a problem with the equipment again.  Let's try again repeating, Mr Richard, and see if it's in fact an equipment problem.

MR RICHARD: Was there anything particular about that vehicle into which you packed the weaponry as to where you could pack it?

JOHANNES MNISI: There was a space where we could fit in the materials, it's just that I don't remember which side where we fitted but there was a place where we could hide it there, so that no one could see.

MR RICHARD: So it was a concealed compartment?

JOHANNES MNISI: Yes.

MR RICHARD: How big was that compartment in length and breadth and depth?

JOHANNES MNISI: I cannot say exactly, but it was a much spacious compartment.  There was enough space for the material.

MR RICHARD: It's difficult to guess, but do you recall what, difficult to remember, but do you recall what you packed into that compartment that day?

JOHANNES MNISI: What I can remember, I think there were extended charges and concentrated charges.

MR RICHARD: What are extended charges?

JOHANNES MNISI: These are bombs.

MR RICHARD: What are they used for?

JOHANNES MNISI: It depends on the person who is going to use them.  You can manufacture a car bomb, or you can place it somewhere.  It's almost the same as a limpet mine.  You can place it wherever you choose to place it, it's up to you.

MR RICHARD: Is it more or less powerful than a limpet mine?

JOHANNES MNISI: Extended charges are more powerful than limpet mines.

MR RICHARD: What does the term "extended connotate" and mean?

JOHANNES MNISI: I don't know how I can explain this, but it depends on the kilograms in that extended charge.

MR RICHARD: And now you mentioned some other category of...

CHAIRPERSON: Concentrated charges.

MR RICHARD: What are concentrated charges?

JOHANNES MNISI: The kilograms in the concentrated charges are smaller than the extended.

MR RICHARD: And what are they used for?