Special Hearings — Armed Forces Hearings — 1997-10-08

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, that was exactly so.  We did not act without being requested by the Police to support them.  This does not mean that they did not continue to ask for assistance, but they asked assistance from other parts of the Defence Force, not necessarily from Special Forces.

MR GOOSEN: But General, that is precisely the point.  In effect what you are saying, and correct me if I am wrong, but in effect what you are saying is that situation in the country was such that it necessitated a change in strategy on the part of the South African Defence Force.
 Change in strategy in that it now became necessary to deploy Special Forces in support of the South African Police in order to deal with this changed strategy on the part of the revolutionary forces.  You put in place a plan, some operations were carried out and the need for that evaporate.  In other words, the operations that you put in place, were in effect so effective that it no longer became necessary in 1987 and through to 1988, for further deployment along approved lines, but further deployment of Special Forces in support of the South African Police?  Am I misunderstanding your response entirely or is that correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, I want to repeat again.  The situation in the country did not change.  The situation in the country improved to a certain extent, but not to such an extent that we did not need to continue, but the Police did not ask for assistance from us.
 It was their right to do so, not to request assistance from us.  But this did not mean that they were not asking other sections of the Defence Force to support them.

MR GOOSEN: But we are speaking specifically about the deployment of Special Forces?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: But that is what I am saying, they didn't ask Special Forces.

MR GOOSEN: So Special Forces then, you are saying, after this procedure was put in place, were as long as you were in command of Special Forces, were never again deployed using unconventional methods, or revolutionary methods which involved the elimination of people, were never then deployed internally in support or in assistance of or to assist the South African Police, is that correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is correct.

MR GOOSEN: So if it transpires that in fact there were such operations, they would be totally unauthorised?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Except if the Police asked Special Forces after I had left Special Forces.  That could have been the case.

MR GOOSEN: No, no, I accept that you wouldn't be able to comment as to whether whilst you were Officer Commanding Special Forces, that would be to the end of 1988, but in the period from and you can't give a specific date but you would suggest that it might be early 1987 perhaps, from then through until when you left Special Forces and took up your position elsewhere in the SADF, if Special Forces were deployed in support of the South African Police inside the country, in which unconventional methods were deployed which included the elimination of individuals as you've testified, then such deployment would be unauthorised?   Is that correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, it may be that unauthorised operations took place.  If the Police had requested us again, and it had been done and authorised through the right procedure, then it couldn't have been an unauthorised operation.  It is difficult for me now, because I don't know of operations which took place after that.

MR GOOSEN: But in principle what you have just indicated ... (intervention)

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Yes, but that I have agreed to.

MR GOOSEN: Yes, so they would in fact be, because you were there and you were not involved in the authorisation procedure and you have no knowledge of operations carried out in which Special Forces were deployed from approximately the beginning of 1987 through until 1988, end of 1988.  Then it must follow that they were in fact unauthorised?

MR NTSEBEZA: Well, putting it differently General Joubert, would you have authorised any operations after the date on which these procedures were put in place without referring to the principles that were agreed upon in terms of that procedure?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, that is correct.  I would have continued to perform operations.

MR NTSEBEZA: Is it so then that if you went ahead with those sort of operations, after that date in the light of your evidence, it would be operations that did not have authorisation?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Sorry, Mr Chairman, I don't ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ilan Lax?

MR LAX: If I could just put it a different way to you.  You say your evidence so far is that you don't know of any other such operations.  You would have been the person who would have authorised any such operations.

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is correct.

MR LAX: And therefore the fact that you say you don't know of any, means that there weren't any because if there were, you would have know about it, correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: That is correct.

MR GOOSEN: And if there were operations, if there were operations, then they would be unauthorised operations, correct?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Mr Chairman, I do understand what they want to know, but I can't ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think this is exactly what I was trying to ascertain that in the light of what you have said.  You said there was a plan, a procedural plan  that was put into place which was going to be used in the approval of operations, but to your best knowledge, after the plan had been put into place, there never arose a situation to your memory where that plan was put into place.
 In other words a plan which you and General Geldenhuys had been party to in agreeing should be used to approve the elimination of certain targets, when the revolutionary methods and unconventional methods were used in support of the police, that plan, according to your testimony so far never had an opportunity to be put into place during your time?  Am I right so far?  That is your evidence?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: After the procedure was put into place?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, there was a procedure but it never was utilised during your time?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: As far as my knowledge goes, I can't recall any.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, now what the question seeks to establish as a matter of principle, if it were to be shown to you I am not saying it is so, if it had to be shown and demonstrated to you that during your time and after this plan had been put into place which had to be utilised for purposes of operations, if it were to be shown that there were operations, those particular operations in the light of what you have said, would be unauthorised operations, do you agree to that?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: Yes.

MR GOOSEN: General Joubert, what was the - in accordance with the plan that you devised you indicated that there were three command areas which you identified as the three key problem areas, Eastern Cape, Northern Transvaal and Wits command and you indicate that as it were Special Forces were deployed in a sense, made available to assist in the command areas Wits command and Northern Transvaal command, but not in the Eastern Cape, is that correct?  What form did that deployment take?  I want you to give me, I am not asking for the names of the individuals, I am wanting to know what Special Forces personnel would have been made available in those two command areas for potential use in joint operations?
 Who would have been assigned responsibility then for those two areas, as far as Special Forces were concerned?

MAJ GEN JOUBERT: At that time due to the fact that that was supposed to be specialised operations, I had a limited amount of operators that I could detach to the commands, that is why I only detached people to two commands and I am not sure, I am under correction, I think it was two teams of five people and with now Lieutenant Colonel, two Lieutenant Colonels in charge.