Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-12

MR BOOYENS: Why did you and Raath have to stay at Jeffrey's Bay those times that you were not busy with Mr Kondile?

GINOTRY DANSTER: If I'm given instructions to investigate a certain matter about a certain prisoner you would only part with that prisoner only after you'd completed the investigation, that was the procedure.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's not talk about general procedure, let's just talk about Mr Kondile.  Why were you and Raath at Jeffrey's Bay? - you said that was on instructions.

GINOTRY DANSTER: It was on an instruction.

MR BOOYENS: And Jeffrey's Bay I'm instructed, is 70 or 80 kilometres away from Port Elizabeth, is that correct? - it's on the highway.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, it seems so.

MR BOOYENS: You and Raath never took weekends of or anything of that nature?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We'd go to Port Elizabeth and come back.

MR BOOYENS: You'd go to Port Elizabeth for weekends, is that right?  Is that what you are saying?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We would go and fetch some stuff and come back.

MR BOOYENS: And obviously during those periods Mr Kondile most of the time would be in the cells?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We would lock him in the cell.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Kondile was questioned or interrogated, call it what you like, throughout this period of 12 weeks and ultimately gave his full co-operation insofar as answering the questions is concerned, is that correct?

GINOTRY DANSTER: What would happen is that we would interrogate him, get the answers and try to investigate whether he's told us the truth or not.

MR BOOYENS: Are the people who would investigate whether he's telling you the truth or not, would that be you and Mr Raath?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We would take the information that he'd given us and give it to Captain du Plessis.

MR BOOYENS: So you didn't do the follow-up?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We had the information over to the senior officer, those were the rules.

MR BOOYENS: Well, but be that as it may, towards the latter part of the interrogation Mr Kondile was obviously giving his full co-operation because du Plessis even went so far as to try and enlist his services as an informer, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, he gave us information after a while.

JUDGE PILLAY: But the question is, was he so co-operative that there was an attempt to enlist him or to recruit him as an informer?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, there were such efforts.

MR BOOYENS: Now, if a man - judging on your own information, if a man is not giving you his co-operation you wouldn't even dream of getting him as an informer, is that correct?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Please repeat your question.

MR BOOYENS: If you as a policeman yourself is interrogating somebody, you would only try to get that person to become your informer if you are satisfied that he is giving you his full co-operation.  If he doesn't want to co-operate it will serve no purpose even to try to get him as an informer, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We tried to make him co-operate with us to work for the detective side of the police, he refused.  He said that he would give us the information and after he had given us the information he asked that he be charged, he said he refuses to work with the police.

MR BOOYENS: I've heard you say that.  Let's carry on from there.  Now, approximately how long before he was taken to Komatiepoort did these efforts of Mr du Plessis to enlist him as an informer start?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I can't tell you the number of days but it took a bit of time.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, it's obviously not something that happened very quickly so he started talking to him quite a while before he went to Komatiepoort - allegedly went to Komatiepoort, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: He tried to turn him around but that was not successful.

MR BOOYENS: Did you assist in this effort to turn him around?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We tried together with Raath.

MR BOOYENS: And he kept on giving information but just wouldn't take the final step to become an informer, is that right?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes, that is correct, he gave us the information but he did not want to work with us.

MR BOOYENS: Did Mr Kondile eventually or at some stage mention something about an arms cache at Komatiepoort?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We heard from Captain du Plessis on the last days of the interrogation - there was information on some of the papers that he'd written that we'd get some weapons from Komatiepoort.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, did Mr Kondile tell you about caches of arms in Komatiepoort and I understand your answer to be that it was Mr du Plessis who said that?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We did not get that information from Sizwe.

MR BOOYENS: But I understood you just now to say that he had written something to that effect.

GINOTRY DANSTER: We got this information from Mr du Plessis after the intensive investigation that was made.  He said that we had to take Sizwe to Komatiepoort because that's where we would get the weapons.

MR BOOYENS: So he never wrote it?  Sizwe Kondile never wrote about a arms cache at Komatiepoort, is that what you're saying?

INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer.

GINOTRY DANSTER: After the investigation Captain du Plessis said that his conclusion is such that we should take Sizwe to Komatiepoort where we would get the weapons.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Danster, I think the question was quite clear.  Did Mr Kondile write something about Komatiepoort? - about arms?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Your answer in fact was and you gave the answer up in English, so there can be no question of faulty interpretation here: "in a sense, yes", that's what you said on the answer to the question by Commissioner de Jager.  Now, what is this: "in a sense, yes", what do you mean?

GINOTRY DANSTER: After the investigation the Captain said we must take Sizwe Kondile to Komatiepoort where we would get the weapons.

MR BOOYENS: Just answer my question.  He wrote something: "in a sense, yes" about Komatiepoort, what does it mean?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Mr Booyens, what do you want from me, what do you want me to say?

MR BOOYENS: I want ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just get this clear, we're not playing with words now.  To your knowledge, did Mr Kondile write on a piece of paper about arms being found or will be found in Komatiepoort?  During interrogation, did Mr Kondile say anything to that effect which was put down in writing?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Mr Chairman, I had perceived that Sizwe was going to take us to a place like he took us to Transkei.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] talk about perceived.  My question is, from your knowledge did Sizwe Kondile write on a piece of paper, make reference on a piece of paper that there was a cache of arms at Komatiepoort?  Did you see that in writing?

GINOTRY DANSTER: I did not see that in writing.

CHAIRPERSON: All right. You were told by du Plessis that there would be arms in Komatiepoort that you must go and fetch.

GINOTRY DANSTER: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he tell you that it was Kondile who told him?

GINOTRY DANSTER: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, let's get ...[indistinct]

ADV DE JAGER: ...[inaudible] I want to clear this up Mr Danster.  You were present when he was interrogated by Mr du Plessis?

GINOTRY DANSTER: We would have different sessions.

ADV DE JAGER: In your presence he never told this to du Plessis?

GINOTRY DANSTER: [no English translation]

ADV DE JAGER: Now, why did you answer when I asked you: "in a sense, yes" he wrote it?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Captain du Plessis would not have said we must go to Komatiepoort, meanwhile there was no information leading to Komatiepoort, this is why I answered that way.

ADV DE JAGER: But didn't Mr Kondile give you the notes and you handed it over to Mr du Plessis - about the interrogations?

GINOTRY DANSTER: Some of the time we obtained information ourselves but also there were times when Captain du Plessis was there personally.