Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

WITNESS:   The only real policeman was Nofomela, Almond Nofomela.  David Tshikalanga was a student constable at that stage.  Brian Ngulungwa, who was chosen because he came from the Umlazi area and he knew the area very well, was a Zulu and an askari, and Joe Mamasela was an askari working for Captain Jan Coetzee of West Rand.

MR MARAIS: Would you, when ordering these persons to execute a killing would you tell them any of the details that were told to you when you were ordered to do it?

WITNESS:   As less as possible.  Because of the need-to-know chain they only need to know what is necessary for them to do the job.  With other words the place of work, his house, and in very short sentence or terms who he actually is.

MR MARAIS: But the reasons for his killing, would that be explained to them?

WITNESS:   Not in full.  That he was a thorn in the flesh for the Security Police, that he as an ANC supporter, and that it was decided by higher up that he must - they must get rid of him.

MR MARAIS: What kind of training would the other two applicants in this matter have undergone with regard to their political awareness and the ANC in particular?  That is

MR MARAIS: /now Almond

MR MARAIS: now Almond Nofomela and David Tshikalanga.

WITNESS:   Almond

MR MARAIS: Nofomela was a full-fledged constable at this stage.  I don't know what specific information he got at the Police College, but I think it was very clear to him after arriving at Vlakplaas what it was all about, and any fairly intelligent guy could quickly pick up what was going on there.  David Tshikalanga has been with me since 1973, and also for a time whilst I was in Swaziland, so he had a broader experience of my involvement in the so-called counter insurgency war.

MR MARAIS: Tshikalanga worked for you as a gardener before he became a student constable, is that correct?

WITNESS:   I met him in 1973 at Sibasa whilst he was schooling, and I supported him with his schoolwork and clothing, and in the afternoons he worked for me in the gardens, that's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MARAIS: About your evidence that if you were caught in an illegal - in the execution of an illegal act that it would not present a serious problem since they would sort it out, in your words.  If I can refer you to the killing of the farmer Lourens that Almond Nofomela was sentenced for, and for which murder he is now serving a term of life imprisonment.  If he were to give evidence that in preparation for his defence in that trial he was ordered by Eugene de Kock not to disclose his involvement in the Vlakplaas affairs, and that he must not make it public, and that he would be assisted and that the problem would be sorted out, would that fit in with your experience in this regard?

WITNESS:   It would be 100% correct, yes.  And when I asked - I might just add, Mr Chairman, when - or mention to you honourable Chairpersons, that when Paul

MR MARAIS: /came to

MR MARAIS: came to me that morning to say, "Everything's okay.

MR MARAIS: "They've made Almond a liar, and the Judges does not believe him," I said, "Why didn't you help Almond?  We used him, he fought out his heart for country and fatherland and for us," Paul said he told Brigadier Skoon so, and Skoon's answer was, "Let him hang.  He knows too much."  So they kept him obviously on a string.  I even at a stage phoned his lawyer, which, if the name was mentioned to me before, gave me the assurance that Gene de Kock and Paul is assisting him, and will be assisting him to make sure that - because I told him, "If they are not going to do it I can tell you what is going to happen," exactly what then happened after 1989.  But they kept him til the last day before his execution, and when his poor mother was running up and down between the gaol and Brigadier Skoon's office, who refused to see him.  A message was sent to him, "You must take your pains."

MR MARAIS: Mr Coetzee, it was put to you that you did not form a political motive with regard to the killing of Mr Mxenge.  Would you say that you formed that political motive in a wider sense by your activities in the Security Police, and not maybe with regard to each and every specific instance?

WITNESS:   That is 100% correct, Mr Chairman.  As the result of Mr Mxenge's support and his past history he was, according to our knowledge, furthering the aims of the ANC, and that was enough for us - for me as an explanation.  I mean if Brigadier van der Hoven would have come and just said, "Go and kill that schoolchildren coming out of school," I would have refused for sure.

MR MARAIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR MARAIS: /NO FURTHER

MR MARAIS: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MARAIS

WILSON J: But we've been told of other people who were told, "Those children coming out of school are going for military training."  Would you then have killed them?

WITNESS:   No, that is in the Soweto context again.  I know that in the '76 most of the children that were killed in the riots were Soweto children, yes.  I was not thinking exactly in that context, again being removed from a black township as a white man, thinking of a school in town, for instance locally, and not where there was riots.  But I agree.  At that time in '76 it was a lot of black children leaving the country, that's correct.

WILSON J: So you would have - if you'd been told to kill them coming out of school you would have done so.  If you had been told to kill them in the townships coming out of school because they were going for military training you would have believed it.

WITNESS:   I would have believed it, but I don't think I would have sat at the school gate killing them at the school gate.  Maybe at the border whilst crossing the border, yes, Mr Chairman.

WILSON J: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetzee, I think that further questioning of you will have to be reserved until tomorrow morning, and will you be here before half past nine ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   I will be.

CHAIRPERSON: ... tomorrow morning, so that we can resume with your questioning.

WITNESS:   I will be here, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

WITNESS:   Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mshe, where do we go from here?

MR MSHE: Mr Chairman, may I request that we adjourn
	/until
until tomorrow at half past nine.  I want to avoid calling
the next applicant before the present witness has been - present witness' cross-examination has been finalised, lest it becomes clumsy, Mr Chairman.  That is my request.

CHAIRPERSON: Does it inconvenience you in any way if we adjourn at this stage before starting with another witness?

MR MARAIS: No, an adjournment won't inconvenience at all, Mr Chairman.  We were expecting to run into more days than one.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  This hearing comes to an end for the time being.  We will now adjourn and resume at 9.30 tomorrow morning, and I trust and hope that all the applicants will take necessary steps to ensure that they are here, so that we can make a beginning in time tomorrow morning.  I will now adjourn.

WILSON J: Can we add something to thing?  Mr Mshe, will you notify the Prison Authorities that we are not starting at 10.00, we're starting at 9.30, so that they can make arrangements?

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn until tomorrow morning.
PROCEEDINGS  ADJOURNED  TO  1996/11/06
/PROCEEDINGS
PROCEEDINGS  RESUMED  ON  1996/11/06
APPEARANCES AS BEFORE
DIRK JOHANNES COETZEE   (Still under former oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moosa?

MR MOOSA: Mr Chairman and the Committee, I wish to place on record our sincere appreciation for the opportunity availed to us to consider our position.  Having considered that position carefully we are of the view that our position, that is our opposition to amnesty being granted to the applicant, is best served by asking him no questions at all.  Thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MOOSA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mshe?