Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-04-01

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: According to how we saw things we thought that if we left him behind we could experience questions being asked of us.

MR LAX: So he wasn't part of your group and because he'd been involved it was necessary to take him with you because he posed a danger to you, a security risk, correct?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We did not first take him along, we first reported this matter to our leaders and then we were told that we may take him along.

MR LAX: But because he was a security risk, that was the reason?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

MR LAX: Well you see, when Mr Prior put that to you earlier you said that that wasn't so.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I do not remember that now.

MR LAX: The record will speak for itself.  What did you do during the period of two weeks between this mission and the next mission?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We were stationed at the base.

MR LAX: And what did you do at the base?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We were doing the usual things.

MR LAX: What was the usual things?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: We were going on with our training.

MR LAX: Did Mr Mbambo join in with your training at that point?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Yes, that is so.

ADV PRIOR: What is ...[intervention]

MS GCABASHE: Sorry Paddy, if I might actually just go a step back.
	How did Mr Mbambo get involved?  Why did he go along on the mission?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: As I've said already, after the attack of the De Knox we gave a report back, we said we saw him as a dangerous person to us, what if we brought him along or should we leave him back but what was said was: if we see him as a security threat we must not leave him as he already had a lot of information about what we were doing.

MS GCABASHE: Now I understand why you took him back with you but why did you join in the mission itself?  On what basis did he go to Bahai with you, do you know?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was because we could not leave him outside, that's why he was, well, supposed to go inside.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, when did he first come inside?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: He entered when we all entered.

MR LAX: When was that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was the time when the late Africa TNT had pointed this painter, forcing him to go inside and we followed into the hall of the church.

MR LAX: Ja, we're talking ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: When did he first go on a mission with you?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It was the time we were supposed to go back with him to Transkei to the mission of Bahai, to the attack of Bahai.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, why did you take him to the attack on Bahai?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: As I've said, we were instructed to come back with him and not leave him behind to protect ourselves as at the time he had a lot of information.

CHAIRPERSON: What sort of information?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Firstly, the guns we had or the weapons we had, secondly, it was almost commonly heard then that we had moved with him and over the radio it was announced that what happened there had happened - but the time we were instructed to come back with him this matter had not been reported over the radio.
	After we had heard over the radio the report that Port Knox had been attacked, we then decided indeed it was necessary for him not to be left behind.  And that also at the church he must not be outside he must come along into the church as everybody else.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a member of your unit?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: At that point he was.

CHAIRPERSON: Well when did he join your unit?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: The time we left his house hoping to go back to Transkei to the church, that's when.

CHAIRPERSON: So he wasn't a member before but you took him with you to the killing at the church and took him into the church so that he could see that all the things you did and he then became a member, is that what I understand?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Are we talking about a member of the unit or of the organisation?

CHAIRPERSON: A member of the unit.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: He then became a member when we were going with him there as we have been instructed.

MR LAX: When you say organisation, what are you referring to?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I'm talking about the organisation of the PAC or APLA.

MR LAX: Well which of the two are you talking about because they're two separate things within one?  Was he a member of the PAC and then he became a member of APLA and part of your unit or was he a member of both the PAC and APLA already or was he just a member of the PAC and then became a member of your unit?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What I knew then he was indeed a member of the PAC and he then became a member of the unit.

MR LAX: You see that is what was put to you earlier, that's precisely what was put to you earlier and you denied that.  You said he was a member of APLA already and that is why I've been canvassing this issue with you because it's confused me that you've said one thing previously and then you denied it and now you are admitting it.  Can you explain this to us please?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: Can you please repeat that question?

MR LAX: We have a contradiction here.  Previously you denied that he wasn't a member of APLA, you insisted that he was a member of APLA before this operation and now you're admitting that he wasn't a member of APLA, please explain this.

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I did not say that I agree that he was a member of APLA.  What I say is that - what I knew was that he was a member of the PAC and that does not mean that you automatically a member of APLA.  You may a member of the PAC but not that of APLA.

MR LAX: It's okay, the record will speak for itself.  We will leave it at that.

ADV PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Before I move onto the next incident, something that has just caught my eye.
	Your code name that you gave up in your statement at page 50 of the papers of the bundle is Tiznado, is that right?  Tiznado, I don't know if that's the correct pronunciation, T-I-Z-N-A-D-O, is that right?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: That is so.

ADV PRIOR: Maybe it's not necessary to hear the tape.  If I may just refer you and your counsel to page 14(h) of the bundle where your co-applicant said the following round about the middle of the page
"One of my friends called Tona picked up the keys.  He went to the vehicles which were parked inside the church yard.  I was also told to go out.  TNT and Kid followed me leaving Tiznado inside the church.  Kid instructed Tiznado and said: "Take them", Tiznado started to shoot.  Kid later said to Tiznado that he must stop"
What do you say about that?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: I deny everything, there is no such.

ADV PRIOR: And this was a statement that was produced, I imagine or I believe, at your trial.

MS COLLETT: If I might be of assistance here Mr Chairman, it was produced at the trial of the Highgate, Nahoon Dam and Da Gama incidents where I believe it was ruled admissible, for what it's worth but obviously it's not evidence against this witness M'Lord.

ADV PRIOR: Yes, I appreciate the evidential value.
	But have you ever discussed that with your co-applicant, Mr Mbambo, that he seems to be making a very big mistake if he says you were the shooter?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What are you referring to that we discussed?

ADV PRIOR: Well the fact that he says you were the shooter at Bahai and you say one of the deceased persons was the shooter, are you able to assist us?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: What I'm saying as I'm saying it and it is not going to change.

ADV PRIOR: I think the next incident following your statement is the Nahoon Dam and I think you mentioned that that was Kid's act of frustration and anger, it wasn't planned, it was out of your control and that certainly wasn't discussed with the unit, is that correct?  Would you say that was a mistake that occurred on that occasion?

DUMISANI NCAMAZANA: It's a mistake he did at the time.