Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-04

MR LOWIES: So if that is the situation, surely by then you must have already applied for amnesty before that?  Why would she say to you she's finalising your documentation?  The date that she showed me was the 17th August?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Would you please repeat the question?

MR LOWIES: She said to me and she now showed the document indicating that she's been appointed 17th August 1998 by the Legal Aid Board.  The question arising from that, how could she assist you with the finalising of your amnesty application and require of you to fill in documents in that regard as you said just before the lunch adjournment?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: She did come to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, would the person please who has the cell phone please try and switch it off otherwise it is interrupting us here?  Yes?

MR LOWIES: Your answer?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: She did come to me and she took a statement, I don't know what she means when she says she only came in 1998 but she is the one who came and said she was going to represent me in this case.

MR LOWIES: I agree with that, she may have done that but we're not talking on representation, we're talking about your application for amnesty and please don't confuse the two.  Now regarding the application for amnesty ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lowies, in fairness to this witness, he's told us repeatedly, I think the record speaks for itself in this regard, that he's told us repeatedly that when these hearings started he had already made the application for amnesty and he has also told us that when Ms Tanzer came to visit him, wherever that was, she explained to him that she was there for the purposes of assisting him with an application for amnesty.  I mean the record speaks for itself in this regard, what that assistance entailed with the pursuant application which had already been launched, one doesn't know, the witness cannot read and write, he can't tell us which of these documents, you know, he completed.  You can't be debating this matter with the witness.  The record speaks for itself here, his evidence stands.

MR LOWIES: Thank you.  However, there is one thing that concerns me from what you said, Mr Nosenga, and that is she was the only person who requested you to sign an application for amnesty?

MR LAX: Mr Lowies, with the greatest of respect, he used the word form, he used the word statement, he used the word application, interchangeably in answering your questions about those things.  You never clarified the matter, I know the man's illiterate so I'm not going to get picky about it but really, do you seriously expect an illiterate man to know what documents he signed?

MR LOWIES: No Mr Chairman, but my questioning is to ensure whether that was the only application lodged.  Now there he can from what people told him the purpose is, he can give an opinion and that is the nature of the cross-examination.

MR LAX: Except to say...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: When I clarified these issues with him because I asked him I think whether these persons who came to see him, whether at Leeuhof or at Leeukop, did any one of them require of him to sign a document and his answer "I cannot recall, I may well have" but the only person that he says he clearly recalls requiring her to sign a document was Ms Tanzer.  I think that's what the evidence says.

MR LOWIES: Correct, thank you.
	Now Mr Nosenga, one thing is clear though, if you signed a document you would now that this is my signature if it is presented to you, not so?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes if they can produce the papers maybe I can try.

MR LOWIES: No the question is simple, I will show you some documents just now but listen to the question first.  The question is simple, if I show you a document and ask you whether you signed this, you would be able to see this is my signature, not so?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes maybe if you can produce these documents.

MR LOWIES: Well you were asked yesterday and I would like to show you certain documents and I'm referring to Exhibit R in this regard.  We've got on record today that you've admitted that page 6 was signed by you.  Look at the signature only which Ms Tanzer has pointed out with her finger to you.  That's yours?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes I am the one who signed here.

MR LOWIES: Because you know your signature and you can say "that's mine" correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Now we have another document which I'd like to show you, and in the sequence of my documents the next signature which may appear to be yours but you denied yesterday is on page 14.  Ms Tanzer again points you to the correct place.  Oh sorry, 13.  With your permission may I rephrase Chairman?  With your permission may I just retract the question and rephrase?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes indeed.

MR LOWIES: Sorry Sir, I made a mistake.  The first document thereafter is page 13.  Ms Tanzer again will show you a signature.  You've denied that that is yours.  Look at her finger?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do see that but that is not my handwriting.

MR LOWIES: Okay.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It's not even legible.

MR LOWIES: I have a better copy, hers is not good, I have a better copy.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did mention that I might have signed other papers but this is definitely not my handwriting.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nosenga, you are not being asked how many documents you signed, you're simply asked to tell us whether the signature which occurs at page 13 of Exhibit R is your signature?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No.

MR LOWIES: And you say it because you know your own signature, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes that is correct.

MR LOWIES: Page 14, Ms Tanzer will again show you with her finger, point you to a signature appearing on page 14.  You said yesterday it's not your signature.  Do you confirm today?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, this is my signature.  Yes this is mine, it's written Nosenga Matanzima.

MR LOWIES: Now you say it is yours.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, here.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the answer?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I am the one who signed here.

ADV SIGODI: Mr Lowies, I wonder if  - I don't know if my notes are hundred percent correct but if I remember well, yesterday he was not asked about the signature on page 14, he was asked about the signature on page 15?

MR LOWIES: With the greatest of respect, I think I made a mistake here and I must apologise, I think you are correct, Chair.  I apologise.
	Mr Nosenga, it was put to you and I apologise to you as well, that you said yesterday it was signature but apparently it's not, you were not even asked about page 14.
	Then Mr Nosenga, page 15, again Ms Tanzer will indicate to you an application for amnesty and the signature.  Is that your signature?  Look at where she's pointing to.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Is this the Stofberg one?  This is not how I sign, this is not how I write.

MR LOWIES: It's not the Stofberg one in any case, but nevertheless, then there's a letter which starts at page 16 and continues onto page 17.  Again Ms Tanzer will point you right at the place where a signature appears.  Is that yours?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is not my signature.  There's only Matanzima written in that space and somewhere else they've written Nosenga Matanzima.

ADV SIBANYONI: Excuse me, is that word Matanzima - was that word Matanzima written by you or not?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I think the statement was made in court but I do not remember.  This letter was written in court but I do not remember.  It is possible that I may have written it.

CHAIRPERSON: Now where does that leave us are you saying that you signed the letter at page 17 or you could have signed it?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is possible that I signed it because this was written in court.