Amnesty Hearings — Phokeng — 1996-05-20

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now going back to the statement you made when answering a question about you having intention to kill him, and you said you did not have the intention.  Did you perhaps after causing his death think of informing his relatives or family members?

MR DIALE: As I have already indicated, that we were so emotionally touched, and then we wanted to send a message to the Bophuthatswana Government about our seriousness.  We didn't have any chance to go and inform his family that we have killed him.  And we were also scared that we would be arrested.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: We have listened to evidence that the chairperson of the action committee was Lawrence Kgosane.  Is that correct?

MR DIALE: Yes, that's correct.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was Mr Lawrence Kgosane also present on the day when Mr Glad Mokgatle was murdered?

MR DIALE: No, he was not there.  I have already indicated that it was five of the Johannesburg branch of the action committee and five members of Phokeng branch.  He wasn't
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there during that time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was it as the chairperson of the action committee, did he sanction the deed?

MR DIALE: He was not present during the killing and we never met him at all.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If I say that you acted on your own without the knowledge nor consent of the chairperson, Mr Kgosane?

MR DIALE: I think we were forming a quorum and we took the right decision.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Then as a controller of the action committee, let alone the quorum part of it, but the chairperson.

MR DIALE: There was the deputy chairperson. You know, if the chairperson is not there, there will always be the deputy chairperson.  The deputy was there, and he was Musi Bogopani.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Did you know as to whether Mr Lawrence Kgosane knew of your intention to demand keys or kidnap Mr Glad Mokgatle?

MR DIALE: I have to say he knew because he was present at the Phiri meeting.  That was during the time that the Phiri held their meeting.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Diale, did the action committee align itself with the policy of the ANC, and if yes, what policy in particular?

MR DIALE: The action committee aligned itself with the ANC because we didn't want Bantustans.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You aligned yourself with, was the fact that Bantustans were not wanted, full stop.  Is that all?

MR DIALE: Yes, it is correct, Sir, but it is not the only one.  We were in the Rustenburg branch.   Some of the members of the ANC are part and parcel of the Baphokeng
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tribe and they also wanted their chief to come back to his
tribe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Diale, you testified that the ANC approved of the murder.  Do you remember that?

MR DIALE: Yes, it is like that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now does the approval of the ANC include or exclude the tribe of the Baphokeng?

MR DIALE: I can't say this approval includes the tribe or that it doesn't include it.   It was the action committee that was elected by the tribe and the African National Congress ...
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TAPE 3 - SIDE 1 - (BEGINNING)

MR DIALE: Yes, it is like that.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Had the tribe at any stage been told of the intended kidnapping of Glad Mokgatle?

MR DIALE: As I have already indicated, sir, that we met that morning as the Phiri from Baphokeng tribe.  As Phiris we are the tribe, and then we took the decision as the Phiris when we met that morning.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Diale, did the Phiri represent the Government of the Baphokeng?

MR DIALE: The Phiris is just part of the Baphokeng tribe.  And on that day they met, their ages ranged between 18 and 65 years.  We call them the Phiri.  I have to say they are half the population of the Bahpokeng tribe.  Those are elders of the Baphokeng tribe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I am speaking under correction, Mr Diale, but would I be wrong if I state that these people called the Phiris, their duties, amongst others, may be referred to as
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grave-diggers?

MR DIALE: Yes, that's correct, sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: What duties do they have as the Phiris other than digging graves?

MR DIALE: I have just said that the Phiri is almost half the population of Baphokeng.  They are men.  As I have said that their ages range between 18 and 65 years of age.  Sir, a 65-year old man cannot dig graves.   He is very old.  If I say the Phiri range between 18 and 65, I am referring to the people that are responsible for anything that happens within the tribe of the Baphokeng.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Phiris call a tribal meeting what people refer to as Xhoto-Xhoto and decide and take resolutions for the tribe.  Can they do that?

MR DIALE: Yes, that's right, they can.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Didn't we hear evidence by yourself to the effect that the only person who may call a tribal meeting, a Xhoto-Xhoto, is the chief who is the chairperson of the tribal council?  Was that not your evidence?

MR DIALE: I want to answer that question, even if that is not my say, it was from my chairperson, but I can give an answer to that.  During the meeting - the chairman of the Phiri called that meeting.  He had been left or he had been elected by the chief to be the council for the Baphokeng tribe. I am referring to Mr Dumagole.  He was the chairman by then and he was representing the chief.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now you have sketched out to this Committee the events that day that led to the death of Mr Glad Mokgatle.  Did the ANC in any manner or in any fashion sanction the events that led to his death?

MR DIALE: Can the question please be repeated?
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MOKOTEDI MPSHE: The events that led to the death of Glad Mokgatle.  Now my question is:  did the ANC then sanction or approve of what you people did, leading to the death of Glad Mokgatle?

MR DIALE: I can't say they sanctioned that, because after Mr Mokgatle's death, we never met the ANC, we didn't have an opportunity to meet them.  We only met as individuals and we didn't discuss the matter.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Maybe I didn't make myself clear.  My question is actually this, that prior to these events that led to the death of Glad Mokgatle, did the ANC approve their role?

MR DIALE: Yes, it is like that, sir.  I don't understand the question.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If ...

MR DIALE: I didn't understand the question maybe.

HASSAN MALL: I am not so sure whether that question is fair to the witness.  It is very broad and you may have to be more specific.  (Applause).  Otherwise I don't think it is fair to the witness.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I will repeat that question perhaps differently.  Did the action committee before going out and looking for Mr Glad Mokgatle, did the action committee meet with perhaps the ANC or members of the ANC whereat the taking hostage of Mr Mokgatle was discussed?

MR DIALE: No, Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Would I be correct if I say this, that the action committee's action was a decision of the action committee itself and no other external force like the ANC?

MR DIALE: Yes, it is like that, sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You stated in your evidence, Mr Diale, that after the event a certain Isaac Mokgatle approached you as an ANC
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chairperson.  Do you remember that?

MR DIALE: Yes, I do.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If you know, is there any relationship between this Isaac Mokgatle and Glad Mokgatle?

MR DIALE: I don't know, Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But it is a coincidence of surnames?

MR DIALE: I cannot say, I don't know.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: When led by my learned friend you testified that during the attack of Glad Mokgatle, you wanted the BOP Government to be out and you wanted to show the world that the BOP Government was unwanted.  Do you remember that?

MR DIALE: It is like that, Sir.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was Glad Mokgatle seen as the BOP Government?

MR DIALE: Yes, it is like that because he was installed by the president of Bophuthatswana.