Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-21

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.   At the conclusion of the proceedings yesterday Mr Wills who is representing Mr Mbambo, indicated that he has just a few more points to raise while Mr Mbambo is giving his evidence in chief.  
	Mr Wills, are you ready to proceed?

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbambo, I remind you that you are still under your former oath.

MR MBAMBO: (s.u.o.)

MR WILLS: (Cont)   Mr Mbambo, there are just two areas that I want to cover with you this morning, the first concerns your stay in Westville Prison.  Were you approached by any persons representing any political party to have to have anything to do with your amnesty application?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the Committee and the members of the public what that was about?

MR MBAMBO: They had come to advise us not to make applications to appear before this Commission, the Truth Commission.

MR WILLS: Who are they?

MR MBAMBO: Captain Shalengwa who works for the Durban office of the IFP, Mr Nicky Britz who works at the Durban offices of the IFP and he's in charge of the IFP Dutch Project and Miss Lolita Sing who is a member of Parliament in the National Government as well the Minister of Correctional Services, Minister Sepong Umzumela.

MR WILLS: Now you've heard - I don't think we need to get into detail about this, you've heard the evidence of Mr Mkhize concerning the meeting that you had with the Minister of Correctional Service, Mr Mtetwa - sorry, Mr Umzumela, when you were taken out of the prison and I think the evidence was to the effect that you had a meeting in some offices which were outside of the prison, is that correct?   By that, I mean outside of medium B but within the confines of Westville Prison complex, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, this is correct.

MR WILLS: And do you confirm the statements made by Mr Mkhize in regard to the contents of that meeting?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now just briefly, why do you think those persons didn't want you to apply for amnesty?

MR MBAMBO: It was because they did not want the truth to be revealed because it was well-known that if we made these applications the prerequisite for such applications would be a full disclosure of the activities that we were involved in thus we would have been forced to expose the truth and by so doing implicate all IFP Ministers and others who are in Parliament on behalf of the IFP, as well as other respected Nkosis and chiefs and in that way the IFP's image would be damaged.  I think it was to protect the IFP's image.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you.  The last area I want to cover briefly Mr Mbambo is your current political allegiance.  Are you a member of any political party at this point in time?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the Committee what that is?

MR MBAMBO: It is the Inkatha Freedom Party.

MR WILLS: Now you mentioned yesterday that you were involved in a process within the prison which as I understood, the purpose of this process was to reconcile various prisoners serving sentences from various political parties in Westville Prison, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

MR WILLS: And obviously the two main parties there being the ANC and the IFP?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is so.

MR WILLS: And I think your evidence yesterday was that you are the Chairperson of this Committee, is that correct?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, which political party are you mandated by in respect of your endeavours in this Committee?

MR MBAMBO: I was elected by the IFP to represent it in the ...[indistinct] this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mbambo, when you say you were elected by the IFP, are you saying you were elected by the IFP members who were in prison or was it beyond the walls of the prison from this election came?

MR MBAMBO: I was elected by IFP prisoners at Westville Prison and there were representatives from the IFP offices as well.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions for this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.
	Mr Stewart, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR STEWART: Thank you Mr Chairperson, yes I do.
	Mr Mbambo, it has been suggested in the press and also in the Human Rights Violations Committee Hearings in August, that Mr Dalaxolo Luthuli was acting without any instructions or authority from the IFP and that he was commanding some group of hit men for his own purposes and in his own fashion, is that to your knowledge true?

MR MBAMBO: That is blue lies.

MR STEWART: How do you know that it's lies?

MR MBAMBO: I know because Maglanduna was always in the present in the hierarchy that we have spoken about before this Commission, people such as Prince Gideon Zulu, M Z Khumalo Captain Langene and other amakosi.  He would be present when they gave us instructions and if there was a task that we hadn't performed well, the person who will be reprimanded will be Maglanduna and he in turn would reprimand us so it is not true that Maglanduna used us for his own purposes.

MR STEWART: And who would reprimand him?

MR MBAMBO: I remember Prince Gideon Zulu, in the last meeting that we had at his house where he reprimanded us for not killing Nazi Gumedesuna.  He did this to Maglanduna and Maglanduna reprimanded us in turn and that is when we expressed the opinion that we did not have a vehicle at our disposal to carry out this operation.  That is why the vehicle from the Chief Minister's Department was given to us.

MR STEWART: And did you know yourself at that time that Maglanduna has been designated the Political Commissar of the Caprivi trainees?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, I did.

ADV MOTATA: If you just for a moment Mr Stewart.
	Mr Mbambo, you say Prince Gideon Zulu would reprimand you through Maglanduna, that is Dalaxolo Luthuli, where the instructions or the reprimand as you put it, to Dalaxolo Luthuli made in your presence, that he should reprimand you?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Stewart.

MR STEWART: Thank you Mr Committee Member.
	Is it true Mr Mbambo that throughout all of this time from before your first arrest and subsequent to your arrest and your various trials and right up until today, that Mr Luthuli has remained loyal to you and to your colleagues?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEWART: And that he stood by all of you and supported you?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEWART: And that he's also assisted and advised you?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEWART: And that he's held in high regard by you and your colleagues?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEWART: Is it also true that Mr Luthuli encouraged you at the time after your arrest and when it became apparent that you were not getting legal support and so on, that he encouraged you to tell the whole story and that this was now the new South Africa and that a new beginning must be made?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, he said he did not see a reason to continue with the fighting.

MR STEWART: And also that he encouraged you to tell the whole story?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEWART: Now, Mr Mbambo, I want to deal briefly with this question of random attacks in so-called ANC areas, and it's been said by Mr Luthuli and Mr Mkhize what the objectives were and indeed you've covered that to a certain extent but I want to confirm some of what I understand the others have said.
	Is it true that the political objective in such attacks was to demonstrate the strength and power of the IFP?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, it is true.

MR STEWART: And is it true that the purpose of such attacks was also to terrorise the people in those areas?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STEWART: And by so doing to discourage the people in those areas from supporting the ANC?

MR MBAMBO: Yes, that is correct.