Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-03

CHAIRPERSON: ... did see the King this morning and I assume he is still out in the tearoom.

MS SEROKE: He has left.

CHAIRPERSON: Has he left?  In his absence, then, may I just say that we appreciate him coming back today again, having started the evidence yesterday.  We do not expect of him to be here for the full four days, but we appreciate also the fact that he came here.  What is it, Ministry.

RUSSELL ALLY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it these Fathers.  Then we have, seems like Ministers of the Cloth, I assume.  Ndwanda and Tauw.  Welcome especially to the two gentlemen.  We appreciate your presence and is it Mashlamo.

RUSSELL ALLY: J L Mashlamo.

CHAIRPERSON: J L Mashlamo, Senator.  There he is.  Welcome to you and Mohedi, Member of Parliament.  Mr Mohedi, thank you for your presence too.  Mrs Skosana, just before we start with the evidence, do you have any objection to taking the oath?

MRS B SKOSANA: I am ready to take the oath.

CHAIRPERSON: With you, is it your daughter, Selina, who also made a statement?

MRS B SKOSANA: Yes, this is Selina.
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CHAIRPERSON: And the little one on the left?

MRS SKOSANA: This is Selina's child.

CHAIRPERSON: Well may I welcome all of you and I think we will start with your evidence.  We have a statement also of Selina's and I am not sure whether she would want to contribute anything outside of what you have said, but we can leave this till after your evidence, she would be welcome having made the statement.  The person who will be leading and assisting will be Mr Tom Manthata.

MRS SKOSANA: Alright.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Skosana, would you mind just standing, taking the oath before Mr Manthata commences with your evidence?

BETTY SKOSANA: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, you may sit down.  I wonder, Selina, in the event of you also giving evidence, would you mind taking the oath?

MS S SKOSANA: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much and you may be seated.  Mr Manthata, please.

THOMAS MANTHATA: We are grateful that both of you from the family could honour us with your presence.  Ms Selina, Sorry, Mrs Betty, what are you doing presently?

MRS B SKOSANA: I am working in town.  I have a temporary job as a domestic worker.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Are there still children that you are bringing up rather than your grandchildren?

MRS B SKOSANA: Yes, there are children that I am bringing up.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Are they at school?

MRS B SKOSANA: Yes, some of them are at school.
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THOMAS MANTHATA: And some of them have completed schooling?

MRS B SKOSANA: Yes, one completed his schooling.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Okay.  Could you please just tell us what happened this fateful night when Obaba Skosana was abducted?

MRS B SKOSANA: It was on the 28th of April while we were still at home and the school kids were called that the Imbokhoto is going to give them their reply.  My husband said now the children have requested to go to school, now why did you not just punish them like normal kids.  Why did you have to assault them like this?  It was at about five o' clock when we locked ourselves in the house and stones were thrown and these people could not get into the house.  I was pressing the other door while my husband was blocking the other one.  They decided to get into the house through the ceiling and they assaulted us.  They were throwing stones at us, they were hitting us with shamboks, with knobkirries.  While we were busy fighting for the door it was obvious that we did not have any chance.  They were already in the house through the ceiling and my daughter had a child in her hands.  I decided to get the child.  They called me, they said get into the van.  My husband was thrown into another van.  He could not even walk.  I was in the van and he was in the other van.  He was together with the members of Imbokhoto.  One of them hit me with a gun-butt.  I was asking them why were they doing this?  This man drove.
 I know the name of a person, but I cannot call him by name and he said this woman is already injured and she has a baby.  I want you to let her escape.  These other gentlemen agreed.  Then he took me to number two and I was left behind in the van with this other man who was sitting on my left side.  He came back from the shop with Ultramel
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custard.  We gave this child the custard.  When it was dark we left and we passed through number one.  They turned right at the corner that was a house where S S was staying.  They drove straight.  I started crying.  After a long silence the driver asked me what is it that I want them to do.  I said to them I want to go back home.  They took me back home and they said do not sleep at your home because when they come back they are going to kill you.  I went to my next door neighbours.  I spent some few hours with them.  
 At about three o' clock in the morning I wanted Bonanie to take my children and, indeed, they were on their way to come to where I was.  We decided to leave, all of us, to go home and when we arrived I saw my husband lying on the stoep and I touched his pulse.  He was cold, he was already dead.  We called the policemen and they came to take him.  The axe that was used to chop my door was taken by the policemen and they took all the pieces that were there and they took the axe as I have mentioned already.  I will stop there.  I do not have anything to say.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Relax Mama.  Where you find the questions are difficult to answer, just do not answer.  You talk about Obaba Skosana having reprimanded these people, the severity with which they punished the school children and that they ought to have not punished them that way, but they ought to have just spanked them and left them like that.  How many children, at that time, did you have at that school?

MRS B SKOSANA: There were many school children.  There were really many.  Even after they have dispersed, some of them  were in the camp and many of them were assaulted and they were standing next to the police ambulance as they were being given medical help.
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THOMAS MANTHATA: And Obaba had gone there as a leader to talk to this Imbokhoto people to stop all that brutality?

MRS B SKOSANA: He was just an ordinary man.

THOMAS MANTHATA: That is what I mean.  I mean he was an ordinary leader of his people going to talk to these people, the Imbokhoto, who were punishing the children that severely.  Alright.

MRS B SKOSANA: Yes, he wanted to talk to them because the children were requesting some few things from them and instead of replying to the children they decided to assault them.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And these people came later at night to your house.  That is long after the reprimand was done before the students and this people at the camp.  That is when the Imbokhoto came home at night, as you put it, you know, to break.

MRS B SKOSANA: They came, it was after four.  It was not even dark when they came to my home.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And at that time you were just seated as a family?

MRS B SKOSANA: Yes, we were just seated at home as a family because it was in the afternoon.  In April month four o' clock is still light.

THOMAS MANTHATA: And they did not say anything, but they just bashed into the house and started attacking?

MRS B SKOSANA: They came chanting their songs saying Imbokhoto, Imbokhoto.  They were armed with knobkirries, shamboks and all weapons.  Those who were throwing stones were the ones throwing stones.  They were actually in different groups assigned with different activities.  They even shot at the window.  The gun they used, I thought at
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first it was just a toy gun, but I realised thereafter that the police were removing bullets on the wall.