Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR DU TOIT: Let me tell you what is involved. Jerry Richardson was a confidante and informer of Pretorius where Pretorius passes him to enter the house and nothing happens, there's no communication between them amongst others. Would you not find that strange that the informer would perhaps try to stop his handler from entering the house at least?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: It sounds like this if you put it this way. I don't have an answer to that. But why the young man went in, nobody knows. He had instructions Madame Chair, they were instructions and he went further and it's known that that bullet proof vest he was wearing could not resist that kind of weapon. He went against that and one is sorry in hindsight and afterwards.
 I don't want to hurt his memory and I don't want to elaborate, but it was a pity.  This is the last chance we have to try and talk about this matter.  There was evidence, and it's common cause that Sergeant Pretorius was a hardworking and a balanced person.

MR DU TOIT: Now one sits with a situation, and I just want to give you the highlights because of the time constraints. There is evidence, one version that he would have known that there were armed terrorists inside the house, is that correct?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: No, I would not say so, no I want to put it differently. It is a terrorist and you must assume that a terrorist is armed, one is not quite intelligent if you think that a terrorist is not armed. I can't take it further than that. I can't say that he did know but he should have known.

MR DU TOIT: Secondly, the version in certain aspects are that, is that he was only to point out the house and then travel past and that he did not obey that instruction. Would you agree that, that is completely out of character for him?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Yes.

MR DU TOIT: And not only does he not pass the house but he stops and jumps out and he doesn't only jump out, he doesn't wait for the things that were agreed upon, that these people had to - that the Security Police had secure the house first, or the Unrest Police.

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Those are the known reports about this young man, it was about his dedication. He was one of those people who was really dedicated. In 99 and a three quarters of those people in Soweto were dedicated, otherwise they wouldn't have stayed in Soweto, working in Soweto.

MR DU TOIT: Nog net een element. He runs into the house and without shooting a shot he is killed.

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: That is logical to me, yes.

MR DU TOIT: Just give me a moment? Did you immediately after this incident, were you informed immediately after?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: ...[inaudible]

MR DU TOIT: I have no further questions, thank you.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr du Plessis?

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you. General Coetzee maybe I could ask you and then General Nienaber can just confirm whether he agrees with your answer. How did you know Colonel Potgieter? Did you know him as a person who followed the rules meticulously?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Certainly, we've come a long way together since Natal.

MR DU PLESSIS: Was he what the English would call a straight forward policeman?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Yes.

MR DU PLESSIS: Did you know Colonel Potgieter as a person who would be involved at all in assault during interrogations?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: I would say, this would have shaken me to hear.

INTERPRETER: (And General Nienaber agrees.)

MR DU PLESSIS: And if we went a step further, would you describe Colonel Potgieter as a person who would be involved with elimination of people?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Would have surprised me.

INTERPRETER: (Same for General Nienaber)

MR DU PLESSIS: In other words if we took only the testimony of General de Kock, that he testified or that he alleges, argues that Colonel Potgieter requested him to eliminate Mabotha after having detained Mabotha under Section 29 for six months, to eliminate him, what would your attitude have been in the light of how you knew Potgieter?

INTERPRETER: (General Nienaber says that he would have been shocked. He would not have expected that and Coetzee agrees.)

MR DU PLESSIS: You agree, you didn't know him as the kind of person who would do such a thing?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: If you had listened to Colonel Potgieter's testimony, that his goal was to secure or to safe guard Mabotha as a high treason witness, is that in line with his personality?

INTERPRETER: (Yes, both agree)

MR DU PLESSIS: If one looks at the rank structure, Colonel de Kock was the head, he was the head of Vlakplaas and Potgieter was at that stage, I think he was colonel by then I'm not sure, when Mabotha ...[intervention]

MR NIENABER: No, he was not a colonel yet.

MR DU PLESSIS: Is there any way in which Colonel de Kock would have felt himself bound to accept an order from Potgieter?

MR NIENABER: I would say that would have been strange for him to accept an order from a junior.

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: No, you are putting words into our mouths. For the same reason I want to say that I also didn't know Eugene that way.

MR DU PLESSIS: I'm not asking you about Colonel de Kock, let's understand each other clearly. I'm not asking you about Colonel de Kock, it's not about Colonel de Kock this time and it's not a reflection on him either, it's just a question of - and I don't want you to choose sides, that's not the purpose please don't misunderstand me. I want you to say what you know of Colonel Potgieter. All the other aspects are relevant but I want now only your own knowledge and your own testimony on Colonel Potgieter.

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: I do not know Colonel Potgieter that way.

YASMINE SOOKA: Isn't it strange, you see I have difficulty with where your questions are going because it seems very much to me that you're trying to establish Mr Potgieter's character about matters which quite frankly Mr Coetzee and Mr Nienaber might not know, because these are things disclosed in their amnesty applications. So do you want to persist with that line of questioning? (...indistinct) similar shot and I'm not sure where it's going to take this Commission.

MR DU PLESSIS: It's not intended to illicit any character evidence. It is simply intended to illicit evidence from the generals about Colonel Potgieter which may or may not be relevant eventually in an argument about probabilities.
 As you well know character evidence and I don't know at amnesty hearing what weight will be attached to it, but at the end of the day it's about probabilities and that is the only question. I've finished my questions on this line, I won't proceed with this line further.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

MR DU PLESSIS: I have only one last question. General Coetzee, I've now listened to a question from Mr Vally and I find it very strange because what he is asking you is, he's putting to you that his impression is that the police, the Security Police didn't do their job in Soweto.
 It sounds to me as if from his point of view he probably is unhappy that you weren't detaining more people in terms of Section 28, interrogated more people, took more people away, bothered more people, I don't understand that.

MR VALLY: Madam Chair, can Mr du Plessis asks his own questions, I'm sure I'm competent to ask my own questions.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you can (...intervention)

MR DU PLESSIS: No, I'm just trying to elicit on point.  Do you know of any prosecution of Mrs Mandela? Are you aware of such a thing?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: You are now referring to my period or in general?

MR DU PLESSIS: I'm referring to in general.

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Yes, in the Stompie case she was charged and she was found guilty of abduction and assault and she was found guilty in the appeal court of abduction.

MR DU PLESSIS: You have knowledge of that?

MR COETZEE MR NIENABER: Yes, I do.