Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

CHAIRPERSON: And that's the crux of the matter.  You told the truth, when you could have lied.  Is that not so?

JOHN RADEBE: I don't understand the question.

CHAIRPERSON: When questions were put to you by way of a request for further particulars, by the Committee, you did not disclose untruths.  You did not give wrong names to the Committee.  You stated the names of Paulos Kennel Malakwane, Stanley and Mabusa Mhlongo, as having been persons who had given you orders to commit the offences for which you are now seeking amnesty.  You spoke the truth.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you not lie to the Committee when they were asking you for the names of people who had ordered you to commit those offences?

JOHN RADEBE: I saw that there was no need because the Committee was looking for the identity.

CHAIRPERSON: You saw no need to lie because you recognised that there was no need to lie to the Truth and Reconciliation Committee?  Is it not so?

JOHN RADEBE: It was not my intention to lie to the investigator of the TRC.  It was not my intention to lie.  What I lied about was that I wanted to say what I said in Court, because I did not foresee what I said in Court, it is not necessary for me to say it.  I did not know that I had to say exactly what happened on that particular day, and that must be the truth.

CHAIRPERSON: You have continuously misunderstood our questions, and responded to things that did not emanate from our questions.  I must note that with a great amount of distress.  We'll take a tea adjournment for ten minutes.  We hope that in future what we saw happening when we came in will not be repeated.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

JOHN RADEBE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Moloisane, you may proceed with the evidence in chief of Mr Radebe.

MS MOLOISANE: (Cont)
	As it please you Madam Chair and Committee Members.  Now Mr Mkhwanazi, Abraham Mkhwanazi, the previous applicant, who was also your co-accused in the High Court in Johannesburg, mentioned ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, he wasn't a co-accused Advocate.  There was actually a separation of trials I understand.

MS MOLOISANE: He was a co-accused and after ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, just press your button.

MS MOLOISANE: Initially he was a co-accused and the trials were separated because Radebe pleaded guilty and that is the reason why he had to be used as a State witness against Mkhwanazi and others.

MR LAX: Yes, we understand that.  Mkhwanazi, in Mkhwanazi's trial, Radebe wasn't a co-accused, he was a State witness at that stage.  That's all I'm clarifying.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you.  Now on page 180 of the application for amnesty by Mr Abraham Mkhwanazi, at paragraph 11(b), he stated that he got orders from you, John Radebe.  Can you elaborate on this?

JOHN RADEBE: I was his senior.

MS MOLOISANE: What kind of orders did you give him?

JOHN RADEBE: On that day we did not know who we would meet, but I instructed him that in any operation which he should take part.

CHAIRPERSON: Come again because I don't understand your response to the question put to you by your Counsel, and the question was what kind of orders did you give Mr Mkhwanazi?  I do not comprehend the response that was interpreted.  Will you please come again and respond to that question?

JOHN RADEBE: The order which I gave him was, is that he should chase Hapile Ndumo after he ran into the tavern.

MS MOLOISANE: And Mr Abraham Mkhwanazi again mentioned one person by the name of Bonga Khumalo.  Do you know this person?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes I do.

MS MOLOISANE: Who is he?

JOHN RADEBE: He was a general commander of all units in Zone 12.  Of all units in Zone 12 he was a general commander.

MS MOLOISANE: When you say all units are you referring to the self defence units?

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose Ms Moloisane?  You say he was a general commander of all units in Zone 12.  Are you suggesting that there was more than one unit in Zone 12?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And to be precise, how many units operated in Zone 12?

JOHN RADEBE: I have explained that Sebokeng is a big area, so we had approximately 80 to 100.  In any particular unit you'll find that it has 15 to 20 members each.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand my question?  If you don't understand a question please do not attempt to respond to a question which is incomprehensible.

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Now your response does not suggest to me that you have understood my question.  Do you understand that?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: I am going to put my question to you again.  How many units operated in Zone 12?

JOHN RADEBE: There would be approximately four, but I'm not quite sure.  But I will just approximate it to four units.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were a member of one of the units that operated in Zone 12?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you say Bonga Khumalo was a general commander, are you suggesting that each commander, I mean each unit, had it's own commander?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: In your unit, who was the commander?

JOHN RADEBE: Mabusa Mhlongo.

CHAIRPERSON: And it was known by all members within your unit that you took, as a member of that particular unit, instructions from Mabusa Mhlongo, as your commander?  Was it known to each and every member in your unit that Mr Mhlongo was your commander and you took instructions from Mr Mhlongo?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, all the members of the unit knew that we take instructions from Mr Mhlongo.

CHAIRPERSON: Whilst we are on this point, whilst we try and ascertain the structure of command, and the structure of your unit, which is important for us to do, can we find out from you who were members in your particular unit?  Can you enumerate your members in your unit?

JOHN RADEBE: ...(not translated)

CHAIRPERSON: We didn't get the translation of what the witness said.

INTERPRETER: I was still asking him to come closer to the mike.

JOHN RADEBE: Fani Abraham Mkhwanazi, Godfrey Shiya, Bopipo Borman Ntjulo, and Bongani.  I don't know his surname.  And Shakes.  There were many.  And others.

CHAIRPERSON: And how many others?

JOHN RADEBE: Do you mean in my particular unit?

CHAIRPERSON: That's what my question is trying to establish.  We are talking about your particular unit.

JOHN RADEBE: Approximately we were 18 to 20 members.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Mabusa Mhlongo were the commander and you assisted him?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct, I was his assistant.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you become a member of this particular unit?

JOHN RADEBE: In 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: Which month in 1993 did you become a member of this particular unit?

JOHN RADEBE: I'm not able to remember.

CHAIRPERSON: How long had you been a member of this unit when the Ndumo incident occurred?

JOHN RADEBE: I would say approximately three or two months before this incident, but I don't remember when.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  That will assist us in estimating how long you had been with the unit prior to the commission of the offence in which Ms Ndumo was killed.  You may proceed Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: As it please you Madam Chair.  Now, how old were you at the time Mr Radebe, in 1993 on the 15th of August?

JOHN RADEBE: If I'm not mistaken I was 15 years old.

MS MOLOISANE: When were you born?

JOHN RADEBE: On the 23 of February 1977.

MS MOLOISANE: Is there anything that you would like to say to the families of the victims right now?

JOHN RADEBE: What I would say is that I'm asking for forgiveness from them.  And I'm saying that on behalf of the members of my unit because we did not do this to benefit either monetary or otherwise, it was in the name of protection, or protecting the community.  If our comrades were not killed in Boipatong and in other places we could not have done this, therefore I would ask for forgiveness of what happened to Elsie Mokoena and Ms Ndumo.