Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

JOHN RADEBE: Did I hear you correct?  Your question started with pupils.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I have now rephrased my question.  Did Paulus not tell you that?  Did he not say that Maletsatsi was now part of a group that were assaulting people, and that she was now taking her friends who were your comrades, to IFP, and that she must killed.  That is what I wrote in my notes.

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a five minute adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  Mr Radebe what was the political affiliation of Thandi Dlamini?

JOHN RADEBE: She was a member of the women's league.

MS THABETHE: Were you in constant communication with her, as members of the SDU?

JOHN RADEBE: If there was something urgent, it was possible to meet her.

MS THABETHE: Why I'm asking this question, it's because maybe before I come to that, did you know Makasas Gampu very well?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: What political affiliation was she?

JOHN RADEBE: She was a supporter of the ANC.

MS THABETHE: Did you have an opportunity to read her statement which we are also in possession of?  From page 185 to 188.  The typed version.  Did you get an opportunity to look at it?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes

MS THABETHE: What is your comment to the fact that it appears from Ms, from her statement that Maletsatsi, Makasas, and the other girls that you had suspected to be in associated with the IFP, were actually kidnapped by the IFP, and not that they had gone to the hostel out of their own free will?

JOHN RADEBE: I dispute what is in Makasas statement.  She doesn't say Maletsatsi was, Maletsatsi and her friends were kidnapped.

MS THABETHE: Are you saying she didn't say it, or you dispute the fact that she, they were kidnapped.

JOHN RADEBE: I'm saying she is not saying in her statement that Maletsatsi was kidnapped, no.  Maletsatsi was helping them.

MS THABETHE: Was helping them, who?  Who is them?

JOHN RADEBE: She was assisting Dondo and Dada and other members of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: It will be better maybe Ms Thabethe to facilitate progress that you refer Mr Radebe to specific paragraphs and then put your questions.

MS THABETHE: Mr Radebe before I refer you to the specific paragraph, who do you understand that, according to your understanding, who was kidnapped by the IFP people?

JOHN RADEBE: I would say the IFP people kidnapped girls from the township.

MS THABETHE: Maybe then I should you refer you to paragraph 5 of Makasas Gambu's statement, where she says that, I'll start, she says
"...Ndondo came back to us and spoke to Maletsatsi and asked her to tell us that they have a car and they can take us back home."
She says:
"...I refused to accept the offer.  The other two came.  They asked us the same question.  I refused.  They then suggested that we go outside because it was noisy inside."
Okay, further on down, in paragraph 6, she says,
"...They then spoke to us again and asked us to get into the car.  I refused to get into the car, and Panda, who was among these three guys left me and got into the car.  We left to a certain house.  They told us this is where they keep their weapons, etc. etc."
Do you have any knowledge about this?

JOHN RADEBE: That's, this is Makasas' statement.  I see it in her statement.

MS THABETHE: Sorry, I missed that.  You?

JOHN RADEBE: I see it in her statement.

MR LAX: Ms Thabethe sorry, before you go any further with this line of questioning.  I've reread these sections.  There's nothing in these sections that suggests Maletsatsi was abducted.

MS THABETHE: I agree Mr Lax, but if you read further on, Makasas was also assaulted, or she claims in her statement that she was assaulted by the applicant, so that's where I'm getting to.

MR LAX: You see the issue is that, the issue here is Makasas may have been abducted, that's patently clear from the statement.  You put it to the witness that Maletsatsi was abducted along with them.  And it's that area that I'm concerned about, because the statement doesn't say that.  So maybe you just want to change your question, or put it in a different way, or whatever.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Lax.  Mr Radebe I would like to withdraw the fact that Maletsatsi was kidnapped since it doesn't say so in Makasas' statement, but would you agree with me that Makasas was kidnapped on the said day?

JOHN RADEBE: I agree.  She is saying it.

MS THABETHE: Before you actually read about it, did you know about this information before?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

MS THABETHE: From where?

JOHN RADEBE: From her.  She told us, and at that moment we already knew

MS THABETHE: But according to her statement, Mr Radebe, you had visited her and you assaulted her.  Why did you assault her?

JOHN RADEBE: Did I assault him as John Radebe or did we assault her?

MS THABETHE: According to her statement on page 188, paragraph 19, she states that
"...I heard Mabusa or Bamajiga and John Radebe looking for me.  They came,"
She says: 
"...they came home at night and they assault me with the butt of a gun."
So they includes you.  I would like you to explain whether do you know anything about this, was she assaulted?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, I agree.

MS THABETHE: Do you agree that she was assaulted?

JOHN RADEBE: I agree.

MS THABETHE: Why was she assaulted?

JOHN RADEBE: There are many ways that one can use to get information out of a person.  It will only depend on the co-operation of a person involved whether he or she is prepared to give information.

MR LAX: The question was, when was she assaulted?

MS THABETHE: Why?  Why?

MR LAX: I beg your pardon, I thought you said when.  Humble apologies.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that the reason why you assaulted her was to extract information?

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: After you knew that she had been to the hostel?

JOHN RADEBE: I think that was after that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you already knew that she had been to the hostel.  That appears ...(intervention)

JOHN RADEBE: And that she was kidnapped.

CHAIRPERSON: And that appears from your statement, your affidavit, as from page  14 ...(intervention)

JOHN RADEBE: I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: And you thought, and you knew that she had been kidnapped because of Maletsatsi?

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why would you assault her?  This is your comrade.

JOHN RADEBE: I agree she was.  We were assaulting her because she had disappeared again.

CHAIRPERSON: But hasn't it been your evidence that the reason why you were so against Maletsatsi was because she was kidnapping your comrade women, and taking them to the hostel and choosing men to sleep with them?  I thought that was the grain of your evidence?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now why should you assault your very own comrade that you knew she had been kidnapped by Maletsatsi and had been subjected to a traumatic experience, being forced to sleep with men at the hostel?

JOHN RADEBE: I agree with the Committee, she was kidnapped first.  Yes.  She was kidnapped, I do agree.  But then, she, afterwards, she disappeared and it transpired that she was at Kwamadala.  Now we got information that Makasas is no longer among us.  She is back in.

MS THABETHE: Mr Radebe are you suggesting that after Makasas has, had undergone through being raped and being kidnapped, to the hostel, she thereafter went there again?  Is that what you are suggesting?  To say that?

JOHN RADEBE: I am not saying that, I'm saying it was rumoured that she went back.  I'm not saying she went back.  It was rumoured.  We were told that she has returned back.

MS THABETHE: So would it be correct that you were, you didn't have proof that she had gone back there?

JOHN RADEBE: I agree.