Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-06-12

JUDGE DE JAGER: You see you yourself made a statement and said after you'd been wounded you'd been taken to the rondavel and the other 4 went back into the house, so you're also talking about 5 people being involved.

MR LEBEA: As I've explained we were 4, we were not 5.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Are you convinced that only one shot was fired from the 9mm pistol?

MR LEBEA: I said I would not say I'm convinced, I think I said I believe the gun shot went just once.  When I was busy hitting Mr van Tonder with the panga, that gunshot went off, the firearm that he had in his hand, the firearm we were fighting over and because of the situation there, a chaotic situation, I would not say I am convinced that the firearm went off once.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Do you know that Mrs van Tonder was hit in the chest by a 9mm round?

MR LEBEA: I became aware of that in court, but I did not have evidence to that and I did not believe that.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Are you prepared to concede to that fact today?

MR LEBEA: If that is the truth, I'm prepared to concede to that.

MR KACHELHOFFER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I don't have any further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTION BY MR KACHELHOFFER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Mtanga, any questions?

MS MTANGA: I have got one or two questions, Chairperson, thank you.

MS MTANGA: Mr Lebea, you have testified that in your knowledge the value of the goods that
were taken or stolen from the van Tonder family was about R26 350, do you recall that?

MR LEBEA: I recall that.

MS MTANGA: Do you know if any of these items that you had stolen were recovered by the police?  If so, what items were recovered?

MR LEBEA: I believe the police recovered everything, the goods as they were.

MS MTANGA: Earlier in your evidence you indicated that you gave an order that these items must be distributed amongst your operatives, am I correct?

MR LEBEA: You are correct.

MS MTANGA: Were they distributed according to your order?  Were they distributed by the people that you gave them to?

MR LEBEA: I did not refer to sharing when I said they should be distributed, the intention was to place them at different places, not just one place.

MS MTANGA: No, I understood that Mr Lebea, what I'm asking you, were they distributed according to your order?  Do you know if they were distributed by the people?

MR LEBEA: Yes, the order was executed.

MS MTANGA: The reason that I'm asking you this is that according to the police information, even though the value of the goods that were stolen from the family was R26 350, the value of the items that were recovered was only R24 987, meaning that there were some items that were not recovered by the police and my question to you is, do you know what happened to the items that were not recovered by the police?

MR LEBEA: I think I have mentioned that the police recovered all the goods.  I do not have knowledge.  Why am I saying this? I'm saying this because all that was repossessed, was taken back by the police and according to the information as to what items they found at which place, I don't know.  You see you can't trust them as well.  There's no way you can expect them to hand back everything that they discovered, but according to me all things that we repossessed were taken back.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, if I may come in.  During September 1999, the office the Amnesty wrote to you asking further particulars, you recall that?  You'll find that on page 4 if I'm not mistaken, of the bundle, you recall that?  You and King gave a joint response to that, you'll find on page 5 and 6, you recall that?  You may have sight of it.
And this response was November 1999, would I be correct?  Look at page 6 of the bundle, right at the top.  You and King Lebea say about that:
"Some items commanded were retrieved by the police whilst the intention was to surrender them to Comrade Themba, but unfortunately due to some problems, things could not go as we had planned."
The impression I get, I want to hear it from you, is that the police did not recover everything, that's the impression I get.

MR LEBEA: That is correct and as I'm explaining that all items that were repossessed, the police recovered, but there are some items, our items that were among the repossessed items and even today we do not know what happened to those personal items, they were not recovered, they were not even produced in court.

CHAIRPERSON: But when you were asked - Mr Lebea let's just agree, don't say - we want a comment or an answer that we can all follow.  You can't say in one breath:  "All items were recovered, but some items were not."  Please, we want to know what are you committing yourself to.  Were all items recovered or they did not recover all items, because your answer seems to suggest that and please don't mix the languages.  Speak your own language, probably it will come out clearer.  Did they recover all the items which they repossessed from the van Tonders?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The money which was taken, was it recovered by the police?

MR LEBEA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How much did they recover from the money?

MR LEBEA: I do not bear knowledge to how much, but they found the money.

CHAIRPERSON: When you responded to the request and gave further particulars, you obviously spoke to King Lebea before penning down your response, would I be correct?

MR LEBEA: You are correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You never discussed what was taken and what was not taken before you penned down, you merely provided the particulars?  Mindful of the process that you were injured and taken to hospital but this is quite late, 8 years after the event when you provided the particulars.

MR LEBEA: According to me the items that were repossessed were taken by the police.

CHAIRPERSON: So from your response and the question posed by Ms Mtanga, you cannot be certain that the police are lying in this instance when you yourself say some of the items were recovered?  We are not trying to lay traps for you.  If you don't know there's no harm to saying:  "I don't know, my recollection says", there's nothing wrong about that.  What we are saying, you cannot come here and say the police are lying when you have no knowledge.  Do you follow what I am saying and approach whatever question is asked to you with that at the back of your mind.  You may proceed Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Lebea if you say all items were recovered by the police, I want to understand now in your answer on page 6, why did you state that some items were retrieved?  Whose idea was it between you and King to put that information when you were responding to a question put to you as to what happened to these items?

MR LEBEA: I explained that some items were found by the police and I do not know what happened to the others.  I want this to be clear because when they were put before the Court they were not all - they were not produced, all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you - earlier in your evidence you said when you were asked what items, you spoke of two guns, jewellery, now you come back and say what has been recovered by the police is not all, what did you take and what made you know that not all was recovered by the police?  What did you take because if you say not all, then it means what was taken and what was recovered by the police, wouldn't that follow?  Because if I recall you evidence, you said it's a long time, it's difficult for you to know precisely what was taken and what was not taken.  Now you say some items were taken and others were not recovered, you don't know what happened to those.  What you are suggesting in that reply or answer is that you know all the items which were taken from the van Tonders, or would I be wrong, or I'm not following what you are saying?