Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-20

MR VISSER: Mr Mbane, at Winkelspruit, while you were making ready to go to sleep under the tarpaulin on the veranda, you told this Committee yesterday that you heard Kubheka scream in pain, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You were close enough to hear what was going on in the room where she was interrogated, is that what you're saying?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I couldn't see what was happening inside, but I could hear her screaming.

MR VISSER: Could you hear people talking inside that storeroom?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I could just hear voices, but I couldn't hear what they were saying.

MR VISSER: If a firearm was discharged inside that storeroom, would you have heard it?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And you heard no firearm being discharged, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, I did not hear.

MR VISSER: And your evidence was that at some stage, people came out of the storeroom and you were told that the lady had died.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you went further to say that it was Botha that told you that.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: And you told us that the people who came out of the storeroom were running around, or words to that effect.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Were they confused and worried, what would you say?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I can say that they were worried and they were also confused.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Did Botha tell you that he thought that she had died of a heart attack?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is what he told me, Botha and Baker.

MR VISSER: Baker as well?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: ...(indistinct)

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, I didn't follow you, was it Baker that told you that, or was it Botha and Baker?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Botha and Baker were the ones who would come to us and ask questions.

MR VISSER: Mr Mbane, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, the question, all we want to know, Mr Mbane, is what you said a moment ago.  You said Botha said that he thought that she had died of a heart attack, and then you also Baker, now what Mr Visser wants to know is, did Baker also say that he thought she had died of a heart attack?  That is all.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: And did you believe them?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, I did not believe them.

MR VISSER: Why not?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It is because I could hear that the deceased was screaming inside that room.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And in terms of Exhibit J, page 2 - just before the heading "Sbu", Mr Chairman, I want to ask you, do you know that Ms Kubheka was given electric shocks at Winkelspruit?  Do you know that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, I don't know that.

MR VISSER: Did you at any stage see that she was assaulted by hitting her kneecaps with beer bottles?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I don't know anything about the beer bottles.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And you would have told nobody that that is what you saw?  You wouldn't have told anybody.

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No, I don't remember that.

MR VISSER: After you were told that Kubheka died, you told us also, at some stage she was carried out of the room to a vehicle, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: And yesterday I recall that you told the Committee first of all, that she was placed in a kombi, can you remember that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR VISSER: It was then pointed out that du Preez gave evidence to say that it was in a Nissan Skyline, do you remember that?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes, I remember him saying that.

MR VISSER: From your own memory what do you say today, in which vehicle, in what type of vehicle was Kubheka placed?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It might happen that it's a kombi, it might also happen that it was a Skyline.

CHAIRPERSON: These vehicles are quite easily distinguishable because they're completely different, do you have any recollection as you sit here now, of the placing of the body into the vehicle, or is that completely forgotten, you've got no idea, you can't remember a thing about it as you sit here now?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I cannot remember it clearly, Sir.

MR VISSER: Alright.  You see the interesting part is, Exhibit J states according to this exhibit, that you told Capt de Jongh also that she was placed in a kombi, at page 2.  That's quite a coincidence, isn't it?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: I cannot remember telling Capt de Jongh that.

MR VISSER: Alright.  ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just while you're on this point, Mr Visser, before it slips my mind.
	You said in your evidence that after the deceased had died, people were running around etcetera, and they were sort of waiting for Mr Miyeza to come, they waited until Mr Miyeza came and then only when Mr Miyeza came they loaded the body into the vehicle, is that correct?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you think of any reason why they would have had to have waited for Mr Miyeza?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: According to what I thought, Miyeza as the person who was staying in the township, maybe they thought that he would be the person who would identify a spot where they would throw the body.  That's what I thought.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson, I'm almost through.
	And will you just remind us what you remember, who were the people who carried her to the vehicle and who took her away?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: It was Lawrie - my problem is that I didn't know the names of the Durban people, but Lawrie was there, Miyeza and the other one who was present here yesterday, but I don't know his name.

CHAIRPERSON: Just for the record, is Lawrie, is that Mr Wasserman?  And the other one would have been, the one that gave evidence, that was recalled, was Mr du Preez?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Alright.  I know it's a long time ago, but would you have told anyone that Coetzer was one of the people who participated in this?

FRANK XHOLA MBANE: No.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, I'm not going to take this further, I assume that one of my learned friends acting for Miyeza, will take this further, so I don't want an overlap.  I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Perhaps because of questions asked by Commissioner Bosman yesterday, I must just point out Chairperson, that in the docket we found copies of S&T, reports and you can obviously check them yourselves, but what I've done is I've extracted from the docket a photocopy through the assistance of Ms Kubheka, of - Ms Thabethe, of Mr Mbane, where it appears Chairperson, that FX Mbane was in Port Natal from the 14th of May 1987 until the 29th of May 1987.  And what is of interest, Chairperson, going through those document, is that Mr de Kock came down, as you will recall there is some evidence to that effect from Coetzer, Mr de Kock came down and that happened on the 19th of May 1987 to the 22nd of May, and Chairperson, on the evidence, if one accepts that at face value, that Coetzer spoke to de Kock when he was in Durban and told him that Mbane had been sent back to the house of Ms Kubheka and that he had told him not to go and de Kock told him to withdraw.  That would give you some idea of the date when Ms Kubheka would have died.  It would have been just before the 22nd of May, Chairperson.  That's the closest we could get to identifying a date.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser.  So the death would likely be just before 22 May 1987.

MS THABETHE: Sorry Mr Chair, what about the date that we were given earlier on, the 25th of April, where it was indicated that the mother had gone to attend a wedding?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but maybe those dates we don't know ...(end of side A of tape)