Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-09

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: And finally, with regard to payment of R7 000, you have no knowledge of that amount of R7000 which was allegedly paid to Mr Dube and Mr Mbane?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: None whatsoever, Chairperson.

MR HUGO: I have told you it's finally, but there is just one further aspect which I must inquire from you.  You have said that Mr Radebe confuses this operation with another operation, specifically when he refers to Winkelspruit incident and the fact that the deceased had been handed over there.  At which other operations was Mr Radebe involved with which had taken place at Winkelspruit?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, if I recall correctly, over a period of two months he was involved with us and his involvement came about just before the departure of Marthinus Ras to Pretoria, that is when he became specifically involved with the person with his leg in plaster and from there he remained involved continually.  But it was not only the Nthombi Khubeka intelligence operation, there were other operations as well and I have read Simon's statement and it is clear from his statement that he confuses, he is confused with regard to the facts of other incidents.

MR LAX: What other operations was he involved in?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: There were other intelligence operations on the way.

CHAIRPERSON: At Winkelspruit?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That's correct.  I have testified as such.  We worked from there.

MR LAX: You haven't told us what those operations were, that's what you're being asked.  You're saying he's confusing it with other operations, you were then asked - just listen to the question - you were then asked "what are those other operations that he could be confusing it with" and all you're saying is: "Well, he was involved in other operations"  Are you not able to distinguish which operations he was involved in, because if you aren't, that's all we need to know.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The specifics of an operation, all that I can say that there were many intelligence operations which led back to Winkelspruit.

MR LAX: But you don't know the details?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, I don't know the details.

MR HUGO: And can you recall in any manner that Mr Mbane, Radebe or Mr Dube were on the scene at the interrogation of Mrs Khubeka, not in the room, but if they were in the vicinity, what was their function there?   What was the purpose of them being there?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: They drove back with us after she had been taken at Battery Beach and then everyone moved back to Winkelspruit, that is where they had stayed.

MR HUGO: But you see, the problem that I have with that is that Mr Mbane, on your version, was the only person who could have driven back?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, but the question you had asked was that if we drove back, and you gave an explanation with regard to according to Mr Radebe who had been involved and your question was: "What would they have done there" and I can say that it's because they stayed there and we worked from there.

MR HUGO: I've got no further questions thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

MR LAX: I'm just a little confused, if you'll allow me, Chair.  I thought you'd just testified in reply to a question or a version put to you, that Dube, Radebe and Mbane lived at the dog unit's barracks.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR LAX: Oh sorry, I misunderstood that's why I'm confused.  So are you saying that Radebe's version that that was the case is incorrect, they all lived at the shooting range?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That's correct.  ...(no interpretation)

MR LAX: Okay.  That's why I'm confused.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I see it's now 1 o'clock, which would be a convenient time to adjourn for the lunch adjournment after which Mr Samuel will be given an opportunity to ask questions.  We'll take the lunch adjournment until quarter to 2, would that be convenient?  We'll take the lunch adjournment now and we'll resume at quarter to 2.  Thank  you.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR SAMUEL: Yes, I do, Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Botha, would you agree with me that Mr Radebe was sort of the area co-ordinator for the askaris in Durban?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: Is it not true that you would tell Mr Radebe what to do for the day?  What operations he has to undertake for the day?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, in the line of command, we had firstly the askaris on ground level, then we had a member of the South African Police who was also a black man, who would be appointed directly above them.  Then there was a white officer in control of the group and one or two white members serving in the area.  If we had determined intelligence operations, then the intelligence would be devolved through the chain of command to ground level.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr Samuel might be, correct me if I'm wrong Mr Samuel, saying that the second line of command that you mentioned, was that where Mr Radebe was?  You said the askaris and then they, the next in the line of command was a member of the S A P who was ...

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That would then be Mr Radebe, that is correct.

MR SAMUEL: From what I understand then Mr Taylor will be in overall command of the operations, am I right?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: And you will be second in command, being from Durban?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR SAMUEL: And on the day in question when Nthombi was picked up from the Durban station, who gave the instructions to Mr Radebe to pick her up?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, my recollection of the events is that the information was collected and distributed by Mbane and through Simon and then to us and in terms of this intelligence, Nthombi would take them and introduce them to the terrorists.  My recollection is that it was only Jimmy who brought her to us at Battery Beach.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that question was, who gave the order - oh yes, are you saying that there was no order to pick her up as such?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR SAMUEL: If that was the case, could you explain to this Commission how is it that you had met, or how is it that Jimmy knew where to meet you all on the day in question?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, all of us stayed together at Winkelspruit.  There was a discussion regarding what the planning would be.  He would make an arrangement with her, meet her, pick her up.  She would take him to the terrorists.  They would bring the people to us.  That was the arrangement.  So there wasn't an order to abduct Nthombi.

MR SAMUEL: My instructions are and Jimmy will give this evidence, was that you, Mr Botha, had given instructions to Mr Radebe on the morning in question that he should get hold of Jimmy, go to Nthombi, go to the station, pick up Nthombi and bring her to you at Battery Beach.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I could not issue such an order because the arrangement would have to be made by Mbane himself.  Yes, I confirm that we had an arrangement that after she was picked up, she would be brought to us and that would have been the rendezvous point.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Mbane, in giving evidence, will say that after he had handed over Nthombi to yourself and the other policemen, sorry, before I come to that - Jimmy will say that when he met you at the rendezvous point at Battery Beach, Mr Dube and Simon Radebe were present in the car.
Have you got any comments to that?