Human Rights Violation Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-06-10

MR NTSEBEZA: Thank you Steve.  I think you have given a very and a fairly comprehensive account of the - not only the role that the lawyers played, specifically the LRC played in this sage, but quite clearly the circumstances surrounding the events that took place at that time.
 I just want to ask one or two questions because we are pressed for time and those would relate to possibly giving us further detail about those three days which incidentally are the days to the day when it was Wednesday the 11th in 1986, it is in 1997.
 I don't know if I understood your evidence well, did you say that according to what you were told, before the planned attack on KTC the LRC had obtained a court order in which that particular attack was prevented in terms of that order, is that the position?

STEVE KAHANOVITZ: That is correct.  There was apprehension that such an attack was coming and an interdict was obtained, interdicting the police both from participating or assisting in it and there was also an order directing them to stop such an attack.  That is the order that is enclosed in the paper.

MR NTSEBEZA: ; And as I understood your evidence, the police and the army units were also prevented from assisting or doing anything that would be construed as assisting such an attack if it took place?

STEVE KAHANOVITZ: That is correct.

MR NTSEBEZA: So they were duty bound to make sure that if an attack of that nature took place, it should not take place?

STEVE KAHANOVITZ: That is correct.

MR NTSEBEZA: And did I understand your evidence to be saying in fact before that took place, there was evidence that elements of the Security Forces were part and parcel of a meeting that was conceived to be planning an attack on KTC?

STEVE KAHANOVITZ: There were meetings that took place at various stages in the 24 hours before the attack and there were witnesses who say that they saw Security Police present at those meetings.

MR NTSEBEZA: I see.  Now what was the nature, what was the legal position with regard to gatherings at that point?  Would a meeting of that nature be construed to be a legal or an illegal gathering in terms of the security laws as you know them?

STEVE KAHANOVITZ: At that stage all such outdoor gatherings had been prohibited and if one goes through the police records of the time and various meetings, that particular provision saying that such meetings should be prohibited, gets emphasised at a number of police meetings prior to 9 June 1986 and it was suggested to Major Odendaal in cross-examination that solely for that reason, the meeting should have been dispersed, possibly he can answer why that didn't happen, himself.

MR NTSEBEZA: Yes.  And the attack on KTC was by a group of people who are now referred to as "witdoeke".  Now, do you have an indication for us as to what the distances are from where the "witdoeke" people left and the place where they attacked?

STEVE KAHANOVITZ: Mr Chairman, we are talking about two attacks.  The first attack on the satellite camps during May, those particular satellite camps are alongside what is known as Old Crossroads.
 The distance between them is relatively short.  The distance between Old Crossroads and where people gathered on that Monday morning, in KTC is in the region of I think, one and a half kilometre.  Between one and one and a half kilometres.  It really means all your way through Nyanga to reach KTC.

MR NTSEBEZA: And given that both the South African Police and the South African Defence Force had had specific orders to prevent an attack of the nature that took place, was it possible in your view for those of forces to have martialled enough reinforcements between where the "witdoeke" would have left and the place where the attack took place by means of caspers and reinforcements, physically preventing from moving in that direction?

STEVE KAHANOVITZ: I believe that could have been done, yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: All evidence that we have is that not only did that not take place, but that those who went on the attack, were actually accompanied by Security Forces?

STEVE KAHANOVITZ: There were a number of incidents and documents and radio broadcasts etc which indicated that there was co-operation, yes.

MR NTSEBEZA: And as your document shows at the end of each of these attacks, there were scenes where the "witdoeke" would return to the place where they had come from, accompanied by the police in circumstances where it didn't appear that the police were keen to arrest those people who all evidence was indicating, had been party to an unlawful attack?

STEVE KAHANOVITZ: Mr Chairperson, as far as we know, there wasn't a single person ever charged with any of these burnings.  We are not aware of a single arrest either for burning or for looting during that period of anybody who was resident in Old Crossroads.

MR NTSEBEZA: That's all.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions from any of the panel?  Phumla  Gobodo-Madikizela?

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you Glenda, just one question.  Thank you Steve.  You mentioned in your testimony something about surveillance at a hotel, Mount Grace at Rustenburg.  You reported the matter to Minister Vlok.  Can you explain what the circumstances of this was, just for us to be clear?

STEVE KAHANOVITZ: What happened was, that during settlement negotiations regarding this trial, it was mentioned to Mr Vlok that we had come to hear that there had been surveillance and recording of that meeting.
 I am informed that he didn't comment on it at the time of the meeting, and we've heard nothing from them subsequently about that report that was made to him.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And you mentioned in fact that the manager did confirm that police were in his hotel to do the surveillance?

STEVE KAHANOVITZ: I've been informed along those lines, yes.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Steve, thank you very much for coming.  We are very appreciative of your well-prepared document and we will certainly follow up the suggestions you've made for further investigations and look carefully at what you have presented to us.  Thanks very much.

STEVE KAHANOVITZ: Thank you very much.