Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, it was with regard to the robbery or the intention of the killing was with regard to the robbery.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] at one point, is that right?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: That is true.

MR SEMENYA: Why don't you tell his learned Lordship that you committed this offence because of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I want to tell you point blank that when I appeared at the Supreme Court I tried by all means to negate whatever I was forced to say and further give an explanation with regard to whatever I knew and did.

MR SEMENYA: I understand that but why don't you tell them that you did it because you were instructed by Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: When I tried to tell the police - with regard to the instructions that Mrs Mandela gave me, the way I was treated by the police scared me for the rest of the hearings to such an extent that I didn't dare explain to the Judge what had happened.

MR SEMENYA: I'll come to these contradictions which are replete in your statements and that of Mr Dlamini but according to your version today, it is on the same day of the murder of Doctor Asvat that Cebekhulu takes  you to his surgery, is that right?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: That is true.

MR SEMENYA: According to Cebekhulu it was a couple of days, approximately 3 days or so before the murder of Doctor Asvat

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I am saying it was on the very same day.

MR SEMENYA: So he must be incorrect to say it was a few days before when he took you there?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: This young man or this boy was very young at the time when he was showing me the place and I wouldn't say he's lying, I would say he doesn't or didn't remember.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] your version now, when you went and made a card at the doctor's surgery, you didn't know why that card was made, is that right?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: That's correct.

MR SEMENYA: You were just asked by your friend to go and make an appointment for him?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, it is.

MR SEMENYA: And he didn't want to make it himself because there are people who would identify him?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: No, that's not true.

MR SEMENYA: Why didn't he go himself?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: He said he had an errand to run and as soon as he comes back he just wants to go into the doctor's surgery with the ticket or card ready.

MR SEMENYA: Well I can show you statements where you're saying exactly what I'm saying to you, would you deny that you said so?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Could you repeat your question?

MR SEMENYA: I can show you statements where you say: "The reason he didn't want to go himself was that there are people who would recognise him there"  Do you deny that you ever made such a statement?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I think he's the person that can answer that question.

MR SEMENYA: According to my reading of the documents Mr Dlamini is younger than you are?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, that is true.

MR SEMENYA: Why is he the one who is suggesting these things to you?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I think you can ask Dlamini that.

MR SEMENYA: ...[inaudible] to him - that's my question, why don't you tell him: "No, you better go yourself"?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I think - as you are older than me, if you get some information from me to pass on to somebody else you can take that information and pass it on to me. I'm trying to answer you and explain to you because I think that answer is fit or befits the question that you are asking me.

MR SEMENYA: According to you Mrs Mandela says Cebekhulu must go and show you the surgery, why don't you say to her: "No, I know where the surgery is, it's not necessary"?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: It never occurred to me that I should say that.

MR SEMENYA: Why don't you say to Cebekhulu in the car: "No buddy, there's no reason for you to take us there, I know where the surgery is"?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I said to you I did not think of doing that and I'm not even thinking of it today.

MR SEMENYA: Do you remember there is an aspect of your statement when you say
"Immediately the door of the surgery locked you even contemplated killing  yourself"?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I remember, yes.

MR SEMENYA: And why would you have wanted to kill yourself?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I did not want to be arrested and I did not want to have an encounter with anyone who would come into the surgery after the killing.

MR SEMENYA: Just try and explain something that I don't understand, you are facing a possibility of the death sentence and the person who has hired you to go and kill hasn't paid you - you're supposed to be angry, is that right?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Could you repeat your question?

MR SEMENYA: You're supposed to be angry because you did not get your R20.000-00 for the murder of Doctor Asvat, is that right?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: No, the money was not the main issue or the uppermost thing in my mind at the time that we were discussing this because this was discussed in passing.  I would have accepted the money had it been given to me but it was not the main issue.

MR SEMENYA: Is that your answer?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: If that satisfies you, it is.

MR SEMENYA: Do you recall you went and - in one of the statements you go to Mrs Mandela to collect the money?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: When you say in another statement - I don't understand you.

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Do you recall you made a statement that after the killing you went to go and get your money and you were told Mrs Mandela is not in the house?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: What I'm saying now before this Commission is that it was the first time that I saw her face to face, I don't remember that statement you're referring to.

MR SEMENYA: You're saying the reason - money was of no consequence, is that right?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, it is so.

MR SEMENYA: So you're saying the reason you did this was because of what I might ask?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: The reasons that she gave to me or us are what encouraged me to carry out this act that is why I didn't care much about the money.  She told me that she would give us the money but as she explained the reason as to why we should kill this man, I felt highly satisfied with the explanation and I had the courage to carry out the duty as directed.

MR SEMENYA: What was the reason ...[inaudible] he would implicate Mrs Mandela in the murder of Stompie?  Is that the political reason?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I don't remember ever talking about Stompie.  I ask you that if you ask me questions, ask me on the basis of what I have said before or what I said today.

MR SEMENYA: Well, let me show you that part of your statement where you make reference to Stompie.

MR VALLY: Could I ask Mr Semenya to indicate to us which statement he's looking at?

MR SEMENYA: It's the one made to the TRC official.

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I do see the statement you're referring to.

MR SEMENYA: Why do you say to the TRC official that the motive for the killing was to eliminate Doctor Asvat because he would have implicated Mrs Madikizela-Mandela in the Stompie murder?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: If I remember quite well, the person who took the statement asked me with regard to Stompie and I never gave an answer with regard to Stompie's murder, I told her I did not know anything about Stompie but I knew something about Mrs Mandela and the directives she gave with regard to the murder but I never uttered any words with regard to Stompie.

MR SEMENYA: So, this is not what you said to the TRC official?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: What I said I remember - the explanation that I gave I still remember and whatever I didn't know I told her or him that I did not anything about Stompie, so I cannot the misunderstanding or whatever is alleged therein.

MR SEMENYA: Do you recall that you are being held at the Lans Police Station together with Jerry Richardson?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Who?