Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 1998-06-17

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  And do you agree with me that firing, I mean inflicting eight bullet wounds on a person, there was no intention to re-arrest that person but to kill him?  Do you agree with me?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: And up to now you don't know the reason why Ndondo was killed?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I can only say he was killed because he was running away.

MR DUKADA: No that shouldn't be the position Mr Dandala.  He was killed because you wanted him to die?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That is not so as far as I am concerned.

MR DUKADA: Would you also agree with me that the whole incident that Ndondo alighted from the mini bus and ran away was faked up?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Can you please explain?

MR DUKADA: The purpose, it was done deliberately when Ndondo was allowed to ran out of the mini bus, the purpose was to kill him and have a justification for the killing?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I can say the purpose was to stop him from running away.

CHAIRPERSON: What is being put to you is this.  The police officers who were in the kombi deliberately allowed the deceased to escape out of the kombi so that they can thereafter shoot and kill him.  What do you say to that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, he was not allowed to leave, he simply left out of his own.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  That is precisely ... [inaudible] Mr Dandala, Mr Ndondo was given an opportunity to run out of the mini bus and the purpose was to kill him as he was running away in order to justify the killing?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Nobody allowed him or told him to run away.

MR DUKADA: The  purpose of, sorry the reason for shooting him in this manner as he was running away was to justify the killing?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No, I would not agree.

MR DUKADA: Mr Dandala, statements which were made indicate that Shosha had handcuffs, do you know about that?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No I did not see any handcuffs.

MR DUKADA: You never saw handcuffs?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

MR DUKADA: Just give me a second Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't see a pocket knife, did you?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No I did not see any pocket knife.

MR DUKADA: Can you turn to Page 18 of the papers?  You read Paragraph 3, only the first sentence of Paragraph 3.  Can you read that sentence?  The first sentence of Paragraph 3.  Can you read that sentence please only?  Not the entire paragraph.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: "The informer approached us and I noticed a pocket knife in the left hand and handcuffs in the right hand."

MR DUKADA: Please Mr Dandala raise up your voice, people can't hear you I'm sure.  I have a difficulty even hearing you.  Can you see there in your own statement you said the informer had a knife and handcuffs?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: This is a statement that I made initially where it was said that a case should go in a certain manner because I didn't even know whether Shosha was an informer or not.

MR DUKADA: Now this is the statement which you made to the police to be used in Courts?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: And in the statement you made for purposes of applying for the amnesty you never mentioned that this statement was incorrect?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I never mentioned that.

MR DUKADA: Just one second Mr Chairperson.  So it's one of the portions which you say it was a cover up, the mentioning of handcuffs?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: That's correct.

MR DUKADA: Can I ask you again, to what extent would that destroy the case?  To simply mention that the informer had handcuffs?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I wouldn't know because from the beginning I didn't even know that she was an informer.

MR DUKADA: So you can't explain why handcuffs are mentioned?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No I won't be able to explain.

MR DUKADA: You see Mr Dandala, just tell me from, just look at your statement, tell the Committee which portion is true?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: The affidavit.

MR DUKADA: Because time and again I gain the impression that everything you said there was a fabrication?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: The affidavit is true.

MR DUKADA: Are you saying all what is contained in the statement in front of you is a fabrication?

CHAIRPERSON: No, he's not saying that.  He's already told us that the portions that are read to him initially were correct.

MR DUKADA: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Can you turn to Page 21, 21 of the papers?  That's not the statements you made after the killing, the second sentence, in fact it's the third sentence, where you say that,
"We proceeded to the charge office again where our weapons were inspected by the same Lieutenant Gilele, thereafter we proceeded to Elliott where we met a white man, unknown to me who congratulated us and phoned Umtata."

CHAIRPERSON: What page are you reading?

MR DUKADA: 21 Mr Chairman.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Will you please repeat the.

MR DUKADA: Are you at Page 21 of the bundle?  Mr Dandala, are you looking at Page 21 of the bundle?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Page 21, yes.

MR DUKADA: Yes, and if you skip the first two sentences, you start with the sentence which reads, "We proceeded",
"We proceeded to the charge office again where our weapons were inspected by the same Lieutenant Gilele, thereafter we proceeded to Elliott where we met a white male unknown to me who congratulated us and phoned Umtata."

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: What was the congratulation for?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: It was for what happened, the incident.

MR DUKADA: For having killed Mr Ndondo?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: Did you question why you had been congratulated?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No I didn't ask him.

MR DUKADA: Did you find it curious to enquire about congratulation?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I was not in a position to ask because I was still amazed, I couldn't question him.

MR DUKADA: Yes but now that was long after the incident, you know, when you were congratulated?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I did not question.

MR DUKADA: You didn't find it necessary to ask exactly what was this killing about?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: ... [no English translation]

MR DUKADA: Did you not find it necessary to ask from the white gentleman exactly what was the killing about?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I didn't talk to anybody at the time because I was still amazed.

MR DUKADA: There is also a statement, Mr Chairperson my Afrikaans is limping and my colleague if again having to quote his client incorrectly, he will correct me.  There is a statement made by Mr Shabalala who has indicated that after the killing there was a braai.

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: There was no braai.

CHAIRPERSON: What page is that?

MR DUKADA: I'm just reading from a summary, it's an Afrikaans version of a statement.  I'm just reading from a summary which I have been given by a translator.  You say you are not aware about a braai?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No.

MR DUKADA: But the statement you made to a policeman, the  hand-written statement, you say you did not have a braai on that day?  Exactly which day did you have a braai?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: I was never in a braai with them.

MR DUKADA: Mr Dandala after this achievement when you were congratulated, you never even had some drinks at a pub or a celebration?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: No not at all.

MR DUKADA: But it became very clear to you that it was a killing which made every policeman around you to be happy?  Am I correct?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Do you mean among us?  No.

MR DUKADA: No.  In fact if I put it the other way, it was a killing which made the white gentleman you spoke to at Elliott to be happy?

GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA: Yes.

MR DUKADA: And again despite that, you never, as a member of the underground unit, you never bothered to follow up this?  To satisfy yourself why there was too much enthusiasm to kill Ndondo?