Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1997-03-17

HASSAN MALL: So you knew you were going beyond the policy of the ANC.

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: If we look into the matter clearly the ANC policy was not so clearly seen at the time because of the anger of the people.   And when people are controlled by anger they regret their deeds afterwards.

JUDGE WILSON: Now you know you shot both her arms off don't you?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Please repeat the question.

JUDGE WILSON: You know you shot both her arms off.  You shot them both off at the elbows.

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Yes I did see her in court. She revealed herself in court.

JUDGE WILSON: And you had done the shooting with your five shots.

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Yes it is so.

HASSAN MALL: Any re-examination?

MR BLOEM: Mr Johnson you told us that as a result of these offences committed you were convicted, is it correct?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Yes it is so.

MR BLOEM: And that was on the 25th of May 1994 in Uitenhage by the Regional Court.

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Yes it is so.

MR BLOEM: And you were sentenced to ten years of imprisonment.  Is it correct?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Yes it is so, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: On this count?

MR BLOEM: All the counts were taken together.  There were six counts altogether.

JUDGE WILSON: They were not.  He got a sentence on each count.  EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
 
MR BLOEM	88	MR JOHNSON
They were to run concurrently.  They were not taken together.  If you look at the end of the thing on sentence, on the first count he was given three years imprisonment, on the second count 18 months, on the third count six months, on the fourth count 18 months, on the sixth count six months and they were all to run together, with the sentence on the fourth count of ten years.  They were not taken as one.

MR BLOEM: Thank you.  That is how I understand the position.  He was sentenced effectively to ten years of imprisonment.   That was what I was putting to him.

JUDGE WILSON: You did not.  You put to him that they were taken as one, which would indicate it was all one combined offence.  It wasn't, was it, if your read the judgment?

MR BLOEM: If I did put that to him then I must apologise.   What I wanted to convey is effectively he was sentenced to ten years of imprisonment.	So, Mr Johnson you are still serving a part of that ten years imprisonment.

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Yes it is so.

MR BLOEM: Let us just go back to the question of how the Council operated at the time, we are talking about 1991, did you know how the Council which you were against at the time operated in 1991?  Did you know how it worked?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: May I ask - because the question is not clear.

MR BLOEM: You were asked quite a number of questions about wanting Mrs Hanabe to resign as Mayoress at the time and yet you said that she was still continuing in Klipplaat, can you remember that?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Yes I do remember that.

MR BLOEM: What I want to know from you is do you know now as you are sitting there or maybe at the time in 1991 how the Council operated?   In other words whether it was necessary for
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
MR BLOEM	89	MR JOHNSON
people to be physically at the ...(intervention)

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: No I was not aware of how it operated.

MR BLOEM: Now let's just deal with - you gave evidence about a certain Mr Mpati who was assaulted in Klipplaat by members of AmaAfrica.

HASSAN MALL: Give that name again.  Mr who?

MR BLOEM: The person's name was Mpati.

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Yes I did give evidence thereof.

MR BLOEM: Now we know that the offences were committed on the 14th of February 1991 now when in relation to the commission of the offences did the assault on Mr Mpati take place?  Was it six months, a year before, was it a month before, a week before, the weekend before?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: He was assaulted before we eliminated Mrs Hanabe.  Before the shooting incident of Mrs Hanabe he was assaulted.

MR BLOEM: What I want to know, in terms of time was it a year before the time, a month before, a weekend before the time,
before the shooting incident, the shooting of Mrs Hanabe?  Can you remember?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: It was not two months thereafter.  As I can see I think it was a month but it happened a month before Mrs Hanabe was shot.

MR BLOEM: Lastly I just want to clarify with you the question of who actually took the decision that Mrs Hanabe should be eliminated.  Your evidence as I understood it was that there was a mass meeting in the community of Klipplaat and at that mass meeting a decision was taken that she be eliminated, is that correct?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Yes it is so.

MR BLOEM: But stemming from that meeting a further meeting took place between the Executives of the ANC, Cosatu and the South EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
 
MR BLOEM	90	MR JOHNSON
African Communist Party.

JUDGE WILSON: The ANC Youth League I think.

MR BLOEM: Is that correct?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Yes it is so.

MR BLOEM: Was it at that meeting that the decision was taken as to how she should be eliminated?  Was it at that meeting that the decision was taken?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Yes the decision was taken there, not at the mass meeting, but at the Executive meeting that was held thereafter.

MR BLOEM: You were present at that meeting when the decision was taken.

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Yes I was there.

MR BLOEM: Thank you, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLOEM

SISI KHAMPEPE: I think in all fairness to the witness, if I remember, I recollect his evidence, it was to the effect that a decision to eliminate Mrs Hanabe was taken at the mass meeting and the decision to execute that decision, I mean, plans to execute that decision, were then arrived at, at the meeting of the ANC Youth League.

JUDGE WILSON: Ask him.  What decision was taken at the mass meeting?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: The decision taken at the mass meeting was to eliminate Mrs Hanabe, but it was not said who and how.  Then another meeting was set as to the decision, as to the method to be used. The decision was not taken at the mass meeting but at the Executive meeting ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: And what position did you hold at that
Executive meeting, what position did you hold on the executive?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: At that Executive meeting I was the Secretary of that meeting.
EAST LONDON HEARING	AMNESTY/E CAPE
 
MS KHAMPEPE	91	MR JOHNSON

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you the Secretary of the ANC Youth League at the time?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: At that particular meeting I was the Secretary, I was the minute Secretary.   The post that I was occupying in the ANC Youth League was being an organiser, not a Secretary.

JUDGE WILSON: And Jongi Lucas was he Chairperson of the ANC Youth League?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Yes he was.

JUDGE WILSON: Mannetjie Blaau?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: In that particular meeting Mannetjie Blaau was an organiser.  Jongi Lucas was the Chairperson at the meeting, I was the Secretary and Mannetjie Blaau was the organiser.

JUDGE WILSON: Leanda Makapela?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: She was the Vice-Chairperson.

JUDGE WILSON: Simpiwe Saki?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Comrade Simpiwe Saki was just an additional member.

JUDGE WILSON: You see, these are the people you said in your application who took the decision, gave the instructions.  Do you remember that?   The application you drew up.

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Yes I do remember Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: I can see no mention there of any SACP or
Cosatu representatives.  There weren't any were there?

NSITSIKELO DON JOHNSON: Let me just clarify something.  The people
that were working under the ANC, as Klipplaat is a small place, you could be an organiser for the ANC Youth League and simultaneously have a post within the SACP.