Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-08-28

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR MGIDLANA: And firearms, according to his evidence.  He says there was ...

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR MGIDLANA: In the Logwaiso incident it will be possession of unlicensed firearms as well as ammunition, which they used to ...

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR MGIDLANA: Yes, that was our incident as well as, if anyone was injured, attempted murder or assault, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR MGIDLANA: Yes, that could be attempted ...  We are not so sure as to whether any police vehicles were damaged, but in the event that they were, Judge, we will be also seeking amnesty in respect of malicious injury to property.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR MGIDLANA: Yes. In respect of that one, it is the supply ... yes, yes, as well as the possession of the explosives and firearms and ammunition that he supplied those operatives with.  Again understanding that there was murder and some people who were injured in that incident, in the event that it could be said that he could have been charged under the common purpose doctrine, we would apply for amnesty in respect of that murder as well as alternatively attempted murder and assault.  Mali-cious damage to property as well in respect of that one.

CHAIRPERSON: Anything else?

MR MGIDLANA: Over and above, there's these offences I mentioned of conspiracy to commit an offence unknown to the State.  That will be all.  I may as well indicate that I'm also certain, I'm just subject to being given guidance by the Committee, insofar as his failure to report to the police that the people who committed these various offences are so and so and so when he knew them.

CHAIRPERSON: I know that that is a technical point that the academics normally raise, but I can think, for the life of me, that a person who commits a crime has any intention of walking into a police station and saying:  "Look, I committed this."  The fact that he committed a crime means he doesn't want anybody to find out, so he would want to go there.  I don't know even if there's a duty.

MIKE TURNED OFF: ...to explore.  Is there anything else?

MR MGIDLANA: I think then on that note Judge, that is all.  Again of course unless there are others that the Panel ...
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MGIDLANA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nontenja.

MR NONTENJA: At this point, Judge, I'd ask for a short adjournment so that I can take proper and further instructions from my client in respect of the application made by the applicant and the revelations which were not to our knowledge.

CHAIRPERSON: How long will you need?

MR NONTENJA: I don't think it's going to be too long Judge, it could be less than 10 minutes.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: (s.u.o.)

MR NONTENJA: Thank you Judge.  Judge, we have just a few questions to the applicant according to my instructions.

MR NONTENJA: Mr Mafu, in respect of the Borris Sedawu incident, you're saying the timing of the bomb was intended to explode before 8 o'clock, is that correct?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: Correct, Sir.

MR NONTENJA: Why was it so?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: It was timed to explode before 8 o'clock, because after 8 o'clock there are people who are working in Borris Sedawu.

MR NONTENJA: Okay.  If I understand you well, it was your intention not to injure ordinary citizens in your operation, is that correct?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: Correct, Sir.

MR NONTENJA: Now in respect of the Madeira incident, your timing was 10 p.m., is that correct?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: Correct, Sir.

MR NONTENJA: And I take it that you are aware that at 10 o'clock, 10 p.m., people were in great numbers, rushing for the curfew permits at the charge office, is that correct?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: Our experience was that towards 10 o'clock, at about quarter to, police start chasing people away to say it's almost curfew time, go now.  So we were under the impression that by 10 o'clock, at least it's already cleared with people who had come to request permits.

MR NONTENJA: I take it that you are aware that at the time of the arrival of the members, of your members, members of your unit, they could clearly see before commencing their attack, that there was quite a number of people inside the charge office before attacking.

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: I may not be sure of that.

MR NONTENJA: But now, according to the statistics and in terms of the bundle of papers, the number of victims consists of ordinary citizens, instead of police officers, is that not so?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: I'm not sure about the statistics.

MR NONTENJA: You didn't peruse the bundle of papers?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: I beg your pardon?

MR NONTENJA: Did you peruse the bundle of papers?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: Yes.

MR NONTENJA: First page, to the second page.  Let me rephrase my question.  The number of people who died is more the police officers who were at work at that point in time.  Are you aware of that?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: I'm not aware Sir.  I see some are referred to in their police denominations, others are not.  I'm not sure who's a civilian, who's not a civilian, in the list as it stands.

MR NONTENJA: Now are you aware that one of the victims was attacked far away from the Madeira Police Station during your operation at that point in time?  At Sprigg Street, to be precise.

MR LAX: Sorry, will you repeat that name for us please.

MR NONTENJA: The victim?

MR LAX: The name of the street.

MR NONTENJA: Sprigg Street.

MR LAX: Spruit Street?

MR NONTENJA: S-P-R-I-G-G.

MR LAX: Sprigg.

MR NONTENJA: Yes and her name was Mama.  Are you aware of that?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: I'm not aware Sir, but I wouldn't say that would be impossible.  I don't know what must have happened.  There might have been some hiccup or misunderstanding in the heat of the moment.

CHAIRPERSON: What does that mean?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: As I'm saying Judge, I'm not sure of what happened.  There might have been some obstruction which might have been misinterpreted by people in that emotional situation, I mean from members from my unit.  As I'm saying, I'm not sure exactly of what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Nontenja, you're saying that the person you refer to as the deceased, was killed as a result of the attack for which Mr Mafu makes application?

MR NONTENJA: Exactly, exactly, Judge.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got more details as to how that happened?

MR NONTENJA: Those at the instructions from my client.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but surely when you consulted, you must have got details?

MR NONTENJA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So let's hear those details, put it to the witness.

MR NONTENJA: Thank you.  Immediately after the attack at the Madeira police station, a street on the other street, which is named Sprigg street, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where is Sprigg Street in Umtata?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where is Sprigg Street?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: Yes, I know.

CHAIRPERSON: Can the witness get one of these things?

MR LAX: English is on Channel 2.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where Sprigg Street is in Umtata?

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: Yes, I know Judge.

CHAIRPERSON: It's apparently off Madeira Street, or near Madeira Street.

BASIL DUMISANE MAFU: It's a street parallel to Madeira Street.

CHAIRPERSON: Now it's been put to you that something occurred in Sprigg Street immediately after the attack on the police station at Madeira, am I correct?

MR NONTENJA: That is correct, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now can you tell the witness what exactly you're referring to, what happened and where?

MR NONTENJA: In fact are you aware of that incident which occurred immediately after ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He said it might have happened, it doesn't know.  Have you got details for him to try to remember or to deal with?