Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-07

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Before that day, if we can remember well according to the history of South Africa, Mbekweni was one of the places where violence against AZAPO that was helped by the police was very high.  You could not, as a youth at home and not a member of AZAPO, hearing stories at home and seeing violence at school, you could not, just not do anything.  If they wanted to stab you they would stab you.  The police would be there and they would do nothing about that.  Even before this day of the 15th of April Mbekweni was in chaos.  There were a lot of stones, because the roads were being fixed at the time.  There was a war there, it was terrible.  Nobody could just sit back.  If you just sit back you just be arrested in any case or AZAPO would give you a weapon to fight against the people.  I got involved a lot in direct clashes against AZAPO.
	A group of them came to my house prior to this day that we are talking about.  They said that they had finished Abraham Rasta.  I was the only one that was left, they were going to come and finish me off as well.  I asked why.  They said I had burnt down a house and killed a child.  I asked them if they were the police.

ADV LOURENS: Mr Maxam, Mr Maxam, could you just go a bit slower please.  I am sorry.  You can proceed.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: A lot of things happened especially December, late 85.  We would be burying people all the time.  Things that happened left a lot of pain.  I was accused of having burnt down a house.  Members of AZAPO came to my house on a Sunday to accuse me of this.  They told me that they had killed Abraham Gwena.  We called him Rasta and they said that they would come and finish me off as well.  The time that they were standing at my house some members of my family were in the house and others outside.  There were police vans patrolling the place.  They did not do anything about this.  These AZAPO people left freely.  The situation at Mbekweni was terrible.
	Even the people who were delivering furniture at Mbekweni could not go in.  You had to personally hire a van to go and get your own furniture.  Day and night it was the same.  AZAPO people did a lot of things.  Some of them I would witness myself.  Then there came the day when we decided, as the youth, to retaliate, because we could see clearly that the police was working together with these people.  Our people were being destroyed.  We decided that we needed weapons.  I said that in Radio Freedom if you were listening properly to Chris Hani and you looked at the Tambo text, you will realise, I said, that the ANC was saying that it supported us buying our own weapons to protect our own communities against the enemy or we could get arms from farms, white people's farms, because they kept a lot of weapons or disarm the police and the soldiers.  We endeavoured all this.  I decided to buy myself a weapon as well.  I bought myself a gun.  The same gun that I used on the 15th of April.  The situation was terrible.

ADV LOURENS: So, do I understand you correctly that at this stage when the situation, as you described, was terrible, there seemed to be civil war in Mbekweni, you decided that it was time to retaliate and do something about it?  Is that correct?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, that is so.

ADV LOURENS: And you purchased a firearm?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, I bought myself a gun.

ADV LOURENS: Could you explain to the Committee where you obtained the firearm?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: I bought this gun, this firearm from a coloured area Newtown.  I was going to the shops and I came across a coloured man.  He said to me, why is it that at Mbekweni there is always police and there is always chaos.  He said I must just give him R80,00 and he will give me a firearm.  I gave him R50,00.  I bought this firearm from that coloured man.

ADV LOURENS: Now, before we proceed with the events on the 15th of April I would like you to explain to the Committee about your involvement in a necklace incident just preceding these events.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Killing a person with a tyre, I was one of the people who were totally against.  Thembikile Kasune was accused by the youth of always being in the area where the AZAPO people lived.  They came to ask me if I knew Thembikile, whether he was a member of AZAPO or UDF.  They had already put a tyre on him.  I got there, took the tyre, put it off him.  I told them that we do not support this.  I asked them to at least detain this man.  Thembikile was going to be killed.  He did not belong to any organisation. He just worked at the shop that were against.  I intervened and his life was saved.

ADV LOURENS: Now, you gave evidence about the Tambo text and listening to Radio Freedom.

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, I did.

ADV LOURENS: Now, on the 15th of April 1986 you and the other two applicants as well as approximately five other people went to a farm nearby Paarl.  Is that correct?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, it is so.

ADV LOURENS: Could you explain to the Committee how it came about that you went to that farm?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: As I said, the situation at Mbekweni especially at that time was terrible.  Before that day, the 15th of April, on the 14th there was teargas, as usual, at Mbekweni.  People were being stoned, rubber bullets, birdshot, everything.  When there were such incidents, especially when they happened in an area when I would not be, when I was there at the time I would go and investigate so as to give a report to our leadership.  I would investigate if there anybody who had been arrested or somebody who was injured in such incidents.  Therefore, I went on this 15th to Silvertown where this occurred.
	I came across a youth group around a corner as I was going there.  I asked them that as there were people that were going to Newtown, going onto trains they were being robbed, some injured.  I asked if there were any people who had been detained or arrested.  They called me Dakinas.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not understand this evidence.  I must say that.

JUDGE WILSON: Nor do I.

CHAIRPERSON: It is either not in sequence or maybe there is some other explanation.  Are we talking about what happened on the 14th or are we talking about the 15th. I thought that on the 14th things were terrible, there had been teargas, rubber bullets were fired.  He went to enquire whether there were people hurt and so on.  Now, we come to the 15th, as I understand, and he says he come across a group of youth.  Now then, is he now talking about what happened on the 15th at that stage?

ADV LOURENS: As I understand it Mr Chairman, that is so.  He is speaking about how, the question that was put to him was how it was that they came to go to the farm on the 15th.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to hear his evidence.

ADV LOURENS: If I might just clarify it with the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

ADV LOURENS: Mr Maxam ...

JUDGE WILSON: I think it would be better if you did not clarify.  You tried to clarify for the 13th and he ignored your clarification entirely.  He made no mention of going, doing anything on the 13th which you asked him, did he?  He went straight on to the 14th.

ADV LOURENS: Mr Chairman, I do not recollect specifically asking about the 13th as a day.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you not ask him if he and the other two applicants and five others went to a farm on the 13th?

CHAIRPERSON: 15th.

ADV LOURENS: The 15th ...

JUDGE WILSON: 15th.

ADV LOURENS: ... Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: And he went back to the 14th.  Are we coming back to the 15th now?

ADV LOURENS: I, if I might just ...

CHAIRPERSON: Clear that up.

ADV LOURENS: ... clear that up.

CHAIRPERSON: Please.

ADV LOURENS: Mr Maxam, on the 15th you went to a farm.  Is that correct?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, it is so.

ADV LOURENS: The other two applicants went with you to the farm?

PHILEMON KABILA MAXAM: Yes, it is so.

ADV LOURENS: Now, on what day did you meet them to go to the farm?