Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-10-01

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: The technical division should explosives have been used, we would have used them. If we used an ambush, I would have sent off some of my men.  We had to determine the need and we had to look at the merit of the matter, but because one of those were that it should look like an ANC operation.

MR HUGO: Now there was a person who was very busy, you could not get hold of him, you have to make appointments with him.  He has nothing to do with ambushes, but still you are going to discuss the possibility of an ambush with him.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: The question of an ambush was mentioned, but that would have not been his work.  That would have been the duty for my men. We made provision to both sides.

MR HUGO: You are saying that then you returned to Vlakplaas where you ordered Ras, Snyman and Vermeulen to get ready for this operation.  What exactly did you tell them when you arrived at Vlakplaas?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I can't remember the specific detail, but the essence was what it was definitely about.

MR HUGO: What?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That people would be killed, and specifically that policemen were going to be killed.

MR HUGO: Mr De Kock, while we are busy with this point; did you expect from your members should a given order of this nature be given, to question it?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: The choice was open to question it, but no, I did not expect it from them.  At two various instances there was this rare occasion where operations had been planned and having given people the choice, whether they wanted to go or not, they said no, they did not feel psychologically or physically fit to do that, and I have put replacements in their place, substitutes. I can mention those were operations in neighbouring countries, and it did have an ambience on the people's psychological and physical capabilities. I did not expect from them to say no.

MR HUGO: Did you not expect from them to require a kind of motivation from you, for the purpose for which they will be used, and to determine and verify the various facts?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: I have a vague recollection that I mentioned to them that it was related to the Goniwe incident and had to do with fraud.

MR HUGO: I want to put it like this. You worked on the basis that you give orders, they execute these orders and you were willing to take responsibility and the consequences on behalf of your men?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HUGO: And is it still the case today?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, I take full responsibility, from me downwards. Especially for the behaviour of all my men but not from me to the top level, not any more.

MR HUGO: Is it also your contention that you feel that people who gave orders to you, should adopt the same attitude?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes. I believed wrongly that there was integrity and a moral fibre in the top structure.  But it seems that I was wrong.

MR HUGO: In conclusion, you say regarding this aspect, Mr Martiens Ras later contacted you and told you about this operation and that you never contacted Van Rensburg regarding this operation again?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HUGO: You also mention the Press cuttings in which the ANC assumed presumedly responsibility for this explosion, and you saw that Frans Van Rensburg was very satisfied, was apparently very satisfied.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HUGO: Mr De Kock, regarding the political motives.  We have prepared the application that it was presented on a wide perspective. Some political objectives are also relevant to this application.  I am not going to go through all these aspects with you. On page 19 you give a long exposition of indoctrination, the influencing which you underwent and you confirm that it is relevant for this present incident as well.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: You refer on page 40 to the attitude of the South African Police regrading hangers-on or associates or innocent people and what their attitude was. On page 41, page 39, you refer to trade unions.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And that trade unions were regarded as part of the ANC's broad struggle against the previous regime and the South African Police?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: You also say on page 43, that is paragraph 45, you give an exposition of how it happened that people were eliminated, people who were even members of the security police and people whose loyalty was doubted.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: I don't want you to go into further detail, but it is correct that during this time of the Harmse Commission investigation, you also received orders to kill a member of the South African Police.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And that was also a person who threatened to expose the activities of the security police.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.  The more direct threat was that he wanted to turn.

MR HUGO: That is the subject of another application.  At the bottom of page 44 you refer to the cover-up of offences of the security forces. Is that correct?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HUGO: At the bottom of page 45, you refer to the false claims and the way they were used.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: And then on page 52 of this application, you give an exposition of the context and the background of all these incidents, and you say shortly that the country was harassed by unrest and uproar and that there was a lot of intimidation.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: Page 54, under the heading "activities or action" you say the following, page 55
"As a member of the State Security Council your perception was that it was expected from the South African Police to play a large role in the total planning of statutory and the duties should be done in this climate of anarchy."

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HUGO: You are saying on page 54, as a member or - or it is paragraph 54, on page 55, you mention a member of the State Security Council.  That's regarding the political objectives and I omitted one other aspect, namely, can you remember whether you gave any weapons to the members at Vlakplaas before they left for PE?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, Mr Chairman, I can't remember that but it would have been correct if these people, these members mention that fact, because it would have been illogical to send somebody without the necessary weapons.  Should they have to do plan B or C or D.

MR HUGO: Would it have been possible that East Bloc weapons, Makarov pistols were handed to these members?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes, the only weapons I would have given them, would have been weapons from Russian or Eastern Bloc origin.

MR HUGO: I don't want to go into too much detail, but it is like that, that you had a whole arsenal of East Bloc weapons at Vlakplaas. Is that correct?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: Yes.  And these weapons were brought from the previous South West Africa after it became independent, with the full knowledge of all the generals.  Also it was done on request that we had to go and fetch them.

MR HUGO: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

ADV POTGIETER: Mr De Kock, in the initial discussions between you, Van Rensburg and Nieuwoudt was mention made that the members who had to be eliminated were recruited by the ANC, would you have still gone to Van Rensburg later on to find the reason or to question the reason for the elimination?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, it would not have been necessary.

ADV POTGIETER: Was there any mention made of ANC membership during that meeting of you, Van Rensburg and Nieuwoudt?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: No, not at any stage, and to have given me the names of the members, would have been unnecessary, I did not know them.