Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-11

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I don't remember the names of some of the people.  But the torture we did or the assault we did in the passage it was frog jump and we were assaulting them all.

MR VISSER: What form did your assault take?  What did you do to all?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I used my hand.

MR VISSER: You are demonstrating your open hand?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I was assaulting with my open hand mainly at the back whilst he or she was busy with the frog jump, when he or she got tired, I would hit them with the open hand at the back.  At times I would use my legs or my feet, when he is tired, I would kick him or her.

MR VISSER: Anywhere on the body or just - where did you kick them on their bodies?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Because we were at the back, we would kick them from behind.

MR VISSER: On his buttocks?  On his buttocks?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It depends where your foot lands.  It might be the buttocks, it might be on top or at the back on the abdomen.

MR VISSER: Yes, I see.  On the abdomen from behind, all right.  Mr Motsamai, I just want to round this whole issue off.
	You did not participate in any further assaults, you told us, after the first day on any one of this group of people, have I got that right?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Were there any further assaults after the first day that you saw yourself that took place in that building or was it only on the first day?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: It was the first day only.  After the first day, the following day, I don't know how they were assaulted.

MR VISSER: No but the question is whether they were assaulted after the first day, according to what you yourself saw when you were present.

CHAIRPERSON: He gave evidence as I recollect it, that he heard an assault through the window, didn't he?  I am not sure if it was on this occasion or another occasion, that he heard the people screaming, so I don't think you can really confine it to what you see.	If you hear noises, you can be very conscious of an assault Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Yes, absolutely indeed. I should have really said what you took in with your own senses.  What you saw ... (intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Ask him whether he knows of any further assaults.

MR VISSER: Well, Mr Chairman, I am very careful not to ask that question because I can imagine what the answer is going to be.
	I want to confine you Mr Motsamai, of what you personally know about, either whether you saw it, whether you heard something, or whatever, and tell us whether you can tell us today that there were assaults that took place on any one of the members of this particular group of people from Ladybrand after the first day.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, there were assaults after the first day.

MR VISSER: Can you,a re you able to tell the Committee precisely who was assaulted and by whom and how?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, I won't be able to tell, because they were at the Unit downstairs.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, how do you know there were assaults afterwards if they were downstairs?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Whilst we were moving on the office, we would hear when people were assaulted.  Once the office is closed, you would not know who is the victim or who is the perpetrator.

MR VISSER: I am just going to refer to some other incidents now Mr Motsamai.
	You gave evidence that Mr Mamome told you that Yster, I think it is, wanted a licensed firearm, or a firearm which he could licence.  Do you remember that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you then told us how Mamome gave him the very same firearm with which Mr George Musi was killed.  Do you remember that?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Is it not a fact that you also told us that that particular firearm had its serial number scratched off, filed off?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is a fact.

MR VISSER: You see, I don't understand that, you as a policeman could perhaps explain to us, Mr Motsamai, how could one register a firearm like that legally?  Can you help us, because that would not make sense to me.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, it was not such as that the firearm was given in order to have it registered.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, with respect, it was precisely the evidence, because you will recall that the witness said that he doesn't know what happened in there but Mamome told him that he will assist him to obtain a licence.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: That was not the context.  The previous statement was that that gentleman was not able to get a firearm legally and the suggestion was that as a result thereof, he was given this firearm which had suggestions that it was not to be a legal possession of a firearm.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I hear what Judge Ngoepe says.  I must confess that I had an entirely different impression of the evidence.    Entirely different.
	I may just say the last thing on this issue Mr Chairman, our notes say that Mamome was going to arrange for a licence on this firearm.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I don't know, it could be that you are right, but I must as I say, that was not my understanding.   I unfortunately got the impression that the very reason why he said that this gentleman was never able to get the licence to possess a firearm, I thought the purpose to tell us about that, was to indicate that the firearm was given to him illegally.

CHAIRPERSON: My recollection of the evidence was that the evidence was that the man Yster, wanted a licensed firearm.  But Mamome gave him this gun which was seen by a man called Mabilo, who worked on the premises, on Yster's premises.  He didn't know that the gun had been used to kill a man and he, as I understood it, Mabilo took the gun and Sergeant Mamome said to him that he should not disclose where the gun came from and gave him the remaining bullets.
	He then said in an answer to a question by Mr De Jager, that Sergeant Mamome said that he would arrange a licence.  Now, I don't know if he was referring to this gun or to Yster, who now didn't have a gun because the gun had been given to Mabilo, that he would arrange a licence for Yster.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The question is justified.  I think the question may be justified.  Sorry that I interrupted you.  It is for the witness to clear that up.

MR VISSER: Judge Ngoepe, that may be one of the very few advantages of cross-examination, that it at least stimulates this kind of questioning, so certainly I believe in the end we will reach the truth, if we go on this way, or we hope so.
	But perhaps, I should just ask you one more question about this and that is this, when all of this happened, were you personally present?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Which day sir?

MR VISSER: During the incident which the Honourable Chairman has just read.  I don't know whether you followed that.  It is Mamome came and told you Yster was looking for a firearm and then you gave your version of what happened there.
	I am not certain whether that version is a version as Mr Mamome told you or whether you were then present on the scene when he handed the gun to Yster and Mabilo was there and something was said between them.  Were you actually present?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: That is correct.  I was present during that incident.  That is where I think there is a mistake of what has been said.  At that time when Sergeant Mamome was handing over the gun to Yster, Mabilo was present.

MR VISSER: And that Mabilo, is that Jeff Mabilo who is allegedly a victim in this case, because he was the nephew of George Musi?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: He was present, that is the one.

MR VISSER: Yes, so by a strange twist of fate Mabilo lands up with the very firearm that killed his uncle?  Is that what you are telling us?