Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

ADV MEMANI: And Ngo at some stage worked there without being registered as a member of the security branch.

MR MORAKILE: I only knew that he was a recruit.

ADV MEMANI: And there was also a Bester who worked there without being registered as a member of the the security branch.  Before you make the note, let me find the correction on the name.  Yes, it's confirmed Bester. Do you know Bester?

MR MORAKILE: Is that a white person?  I only know one Bester who was a captain.  He left when he was a major.

ADV MEMANI: Yes, that is the one.  I'm told that for a long time he worked with security branch without being registered as a member of security branch?

MR MORAKILE: I don't know, surely.  I arrived there being a police and with other police. As whether he was registered or not I do not know.

ADV MEMANI: And I'm instructed for some time Motsamai used to see you being brought by Mamome without knowing exactly where you worked and you'd worked together with them.

MR MORAKILE: Where?

ADV MEMANI: He was with you when you went to bomb the house of Nicos, he was with you when you went to burn - to bomb the house of Winnie.

MR MORAKILE: I haven't worked with Motsamai, I didn't go there. I would not even participate in the bombing of that house once I was absent.  That house was bombed in 1985 I said I came in 1986 in Bloemfontein.
    It would not be possible to go and bomb that house in my absence because at that time in 1985 I did not know anything about the branch because I was not connected with them.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Motsamai concedes that it is possible that you may have been working with the stock theft unit because at that stage you never used to be at the office, but Mr Mamome would come with you.

MR MORAKILE: Whilst I was in Wepener, I was not working with the security police.  I did not even know Mr Mamome.  I started to know these people when I started to work at Bloemfontein security police. I didn't have any association with them.

ADV MEMANI: Now, Mr Morakile, when you went to arrest Oupa, you told us that you saw Mr Mamome and others come back with Morakile, with Oupa rather.

MR MORAKILE: Mamome's the one who has caught him.

ADV MEMANI: Do you know that when Mr Makubalo is being chased, some of the policemen when on the one side of the house and some went on the other side of the house?

MR MORAKILE: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And it appears to me that you did not catch up with them, you could not keep up with the pace.

MR MORAKILE: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And although you heard gunfire, you couldn't see actually where it was fired from.

MR MORAKILE: The first one I saw him shooting is Motsamai, is Boyzi, I saw him.  After that when they were obscured I heard a gunshot.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Motsamai then tells us that at that stage he heard gun  - at some stage he heard people firing from one side but he didn't see who it was that was firing.

MR MORAKILE: I didn't hear that.

ADV MEMANI: Well you've just said that you heard gunfire but we'll proceed.  Now, ...[intervention]

MR MORAKILE: I spoke about what, I spoke about gunfire from Motsamai.

ADV MEMANI: I'm talking about the gunfire that you could hear from the distance but you didn't see who was shooting at that stage.

MR MORAKILE: I didn't hear that.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you did not hear any gunshots other than the gunshots that you saw Mr Motsamai ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: : The interpreters cannot hear.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying you did not hear any other gunshots other than the shots you heard when you saw Mr Motsamai firing?

MR MORAKILE: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: But just a few moments ago I put it to you that you were left behind and gunfire continued and at that stage you couldn't see who was shooting. And your answer was yes, the only person - you saw Motsamai only who was the first to shoot.

MR MORAKILE: Let me put it in this way: When Motsamai get off the car, he started shooting then he turned on the house, they were following Oupa and from there I did not hear gunfire again.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: The interpretation that came through to us was that you said that after these people were obscured, after they got obscured again and you didn't see them, you did hear some shots being fired.

MR MORAKILE: Maybe I did not understand the question correctly.  I said ended up gunfire after Motsamai was chasing Oupa, maybe I did not understand the question.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And from there you did not hear any other gunfire?

MR MORAKILE: Not at all, I didn't hear any gunfire.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

ADV MEMANI: Where was Motsamai when he was shooting?

MR MORAKILE: The Kombi was on the street, when he entered the yard - he started shooting when he entered the yard.  From the Kombi he shot at Oupa's direction, then he stopped shooting, then we entered into the yard, then he went around the house, then we jumped the fence and then we chased Oupa.

ADV MEMANI: Now, how many times did he shoot?

MR MORAKILE: It would be three to four times.

ADV MEMANI: Was it at the stage when he was in the vicinity of the vehicle when he shot?

MR MORAKILE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV MEMANI: You must be mistaken because Mr Makubalo said throughout the time that he was being chased. He pressed there were shots being fired.

MR MORAKILE: It might be those I've mentioned because Motsamai shot into his direction, he heard those gunfires.

ADV MEMANI: He told us that he ran into one house, jumped over the fence of the opposite house and into the following street and started running down the road and at all this time he was being shot at.

MR MORAKILE: He was in the street that he jumped, again he went to the yard, then he went to another yard, then he jumped, he went to another street, then he went to another yard.  At that time when we chasing him, there was no gunfire.  Then from there there I was left behind and then Mamome was able to catch him.

ADV MEMANI: He ran away and he decided that come what may, he was not going to runaway from the gunfire and that is how he got caught.

MR MORAKILE: It might be like that but maybe he just stood up and they arrested him I didn't see them.

ADV MEMANI: Now, isn't it correct that you and Motsamai have had no differences?

MR MORAKILE: Not at all, we are friendly to each other, even up to now.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases, those are my questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

MR STANDER: Mr Chair, I have been instructed to clear out one aspect with the witness.  After I'd ended my cross examination, do I have your permission, in the light thereof to ask one or two questions?
    Yes, Mr Morakile, I've been instructed that the incident in which Mr Oupa Makubalo was arrested in terms of which you just testified to us, took place before 6 April 1986.  What do you say to that?

MR MORAKILE: Before the sixth of April?

MR STANDER: Yes.

MR MORAKILE: I believe there after that because I told you that on the 6th of April 1985 or 1986 I was not here, I came to Bloemfontein on the 21st of June 1986.

MR STANDER: Is it not possible, or rather let me state it this way:  What is your reaction that it indeed took place before the arrest of the group of 19.

MR MORAKILE: ...[no English translation]

CHAIRPERSON: He says he wasn't here and knows nothing about the arrest of the group of 19.

MR STANDER: Mr Chair, I understand what he is saying but I got the impression that the witness is not very clear and very certain.  He indeed says that he only came there in June but I'm not quite certain whether it was an interpreting error.  I got the impression that he was ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I got the impression he's completely certain and he asked us to get hold of his South African Police records which should show precisely when he came there.