Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-13

MR VAN WYK: Is that something you saw?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: No sir.

MR VAN WYK: So how can you say that under oath, sir?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Because at the inquest I was shown some video footage and it was clear that things had been done so there was no - you couldn't see anybody at that point, there was no - because I remember at the inquest the video footage and photos were shown to me that tried to say well these people were never at that point so I'm just ....[inaudible] saw.

MR VAN WYK: No, but you say they were pulled back, do you have any proof of that or any objective evidence that can help this Committee in that finding?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: No I do not.

MR VAN WYK: So you're merely speculating about that?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Well from what I saw and then with what came in video showed only people at the corner but when I was there lying down people were right up to that point in King George Street just opposite the cobblers shop where the keys are made.

MR VAN WYK: So you say that you saw people just in front of the cobblers shop, is that correct, the shoe shop?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: That was the distance from where they were.

MR VAN WYK: How far do you estimate that from the place that you were on the corner?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I cannot be quite accurate with distances.

MR VAN WYK: Can you help the Committee with an estimation even if it's not accurate?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I think, sir, with due respect you do know where the cobbler shop was and it was some way down King George and perhaps after your investigation you could give us exact metres.
MR TIPPS:  Do we have a plan that shows where that shop was I mean if it's to scale we can settle the matter immediately without all this speculation.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...[inaudible] was done at the time of the inquest and obviously this obviously this wasn't - may not have been too good for the cobbler.

MR VAN WYK: Mr Chairman, I think we will on the video material ascertain on the photos later on where exactly this cobbler shop is and then we can give the exact distances to you because the plan was only drafted afterwards and it's got certain businesses names and I don't want to say which business name is the shoe shop, I must say I'm not certain myself at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, thank you.

MR VAN WYK: Could you assist the Committee in telling them as to how many people you saw laying in front of the shoe shop sir?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I cannot recollect.

MR VAN WYK: Well was it more than one person?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Could you please assist me because you mention, lay - now I want to know - I saw people crouched and attacking reaching by the shoe shop, just opposite the shoe shop so can you clarify - are you talking about them crouching and attacking or not?

MR VAN WYK: Let me put it to you this way did you at any stage...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You're talking about the people who were wounded isn't it?

MR VAN WYK: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: You're talking about people who were killed or wounded?

MR VAN WYK: The people being killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VAN WYK: The people killed were lying on the corners of King George and De Villiers Streets.

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: That shows in the video footage, that's correct.

MR VAN WYK: And you accept that also?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: That's what they saw on the video footage.

MR VAN WYK: Can I ask you Mr Singaram, whilst you fired the shots did you see anybody fall down?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I did not sir.

MR VAN WYK: And by the time that you left, did you at that stage see anybody lying down in the street?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: From my recollections sir, I didn't see anybody fall or laying at that time.

MR VAN WYK: Do I understand your application correctly you apply for amnesty because you acted in self defence, is that correct?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Sir, I applied for amnesty because according to the ballistics, but firstly I applied for amnesty before the inquest and I applied for amnesty on the advice of my legal people and because of the media hype at that stage was -it was if the whole incident is being tried by media and because of that I felt that I needed to have amnesty as well and this is one of the things but subsequent to that, I've made another application on the findings of the ballistics and the medical findings that I may have exceeded the bounds of self defence.

MR VAN WYK: I've no further questions Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN WYK

MR HUMAN: Mr Chairman, Honourable Members of the Committee, with your permission, I would like to show four minutes of video footage that depicts the scene to this witness, perhaps to put the Committee as to where bodies was found and to show the actual distances and I would think could be helpful to the Committee to at this point in time see it and then get the witnesses response vis-a-vis the pictures depicted.  As the Committee pleases.

MR HUMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Just one question Mr Singaram, at page 52 of bundle C that is the second page of your affidavit that supports your application.  If you look at paragraph 9 thereof you are describing the crowd that went past the front of Shell House at the entrance and you say the following: "although members of this marching group moved forward and back in an attacking manner it was nevertheless my impression that this was a group intent on insult rather than attack."  What is the difference between this attacking movement that you saw here and the one of the group that moved down in King Georges Street?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: This that we're talking about now was more of a erect form of with a stick trying to attack whereas that attack was more of a crouching with spears and sticks, it was more crouching - the attack that came from De Villiers Street but the one in front of the Shell House foyer, that was more -they were hitting at the posters and making sort of gestures.  It was more gestures rather than attack.

MR HUMAN: Why then did you describe them as attacking in this paragraph?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Yet the gestures were of attacking and hitting at the posters so that was like mock attacks type of thing.

MR HUMAN: In relation to this group where were you situated when this group passed the entrance of Shell House?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I was in front of the little chemist, there's Shell House foyer and then next to the foyer you have a little chemist and next to the chemist you have a shoe shop.

MR HUMAN: Would you say that would be within metres of this crowd?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: That is correct.

MR HUMAN: And as you said in that paragraph, you did not notice any firearms?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I did not sir.

MR HUMAN: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUMAN

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Singaram, you also mentioned that 56 people were killed that day.  I just want to put that in perspective - of this 56 people, 8 were killed at Shell House, is that correct?

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: I did not mention a number.

MR PRETORIUS: Let me put it to you this way - do you accept that besides even the eight that were killed at Shell House, a number of other Zulus were killed on that day?

CHAIRPERSON: A number of other people or other Zulus?

MR PRETORIUS: In particular Zulus, Mr Chairman.

MARAINSAMY SINGARAM: Sir, I've read in the papers that there were people killed and I don't distinguish between Zulus and non-Zulus but people were killed and I know some of the people were not Zulus, but people were killed.