Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

MR JOSEPH: All right, so the house is hit, the two MK soldiers are eliminated, Jerry Richardson your trusted ally in respect of whom you hold no suspicions is alive and well and Lolo Sono disappears of the face of the earth, is that correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: He disappeared the same day from the evidence that was led here.

MR JOSEPH: That is correct.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: At that time, he did not - I didn't know.

MR JOSEPH: Now, I put it to you that as an MK soldier that you had an obligation to your comrades in arms, that when you came to know of an informer, you had to do something, and you had to do something drastic.  And that is a reasonable explanation for the end of Lolo Sono.  Am I wrong?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You are totally wrong.  That lacks the logic I would have expected from you.  That is why Jerry Richardson came to stay with me.

MR JOSEPH: I have no further questions.

MR JOSEPH: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson, I won't be long.  Madam, so that we understand each other I will summarise what my client's case is all about.  He admits to murdering ...

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just identify, I don't know that you told the witness that you represent a particular client.

MR RICHARD: I beg your pardon, you are right Chairperson.  I will repeat my name again, Tony Richard.  Madam, to summarise my client's position, his case is that ...

CHAIRPERSON: Who is he?

MR RICHARD: Mr Richardson, I presumed everybody knew, I am sorry.
 His case is that he admits to murdering four people, abducting four as well, the attempted murder of one other and he goes on to say that he did these deeds at your instruction and with your cooperation, participation and authority, what do you say to his complaints and charges?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: You will agree with me sir, that after the public spectacle presented before this Commission by your client, I do not think even you believe that.

MR RICHARD: Now, we have all heard the evidence over the last two weeks and from the questioning that my learned colleagues have put you through, I can take it as said that you deny the various allegations against you?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Absolutely sir.

MR RICHARD: But then, we proceed to also have as common cause that during that period between November 1988 and the end of January 1989, according to my count, approximately 10 people died.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: From the calculations and the evidence led here, that is probably a rough estimate, I am not sure.

MR RICHARD: And we have also established the further objective fact that sad as it is to acknowledge at this stage, there were three or four depending on how you count, or two, it doesn't matter, informers in your environment.  I am not using the words Football Club or back yard, the two known ones now are Themba (indistinct) and Jerry Richardson and then there is also unsubstantiated allegations concerning Katiza Cebekhulu.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: What was the first name you mentioned?

MR RICHARD: Jerry Richardson and Themba (indistinct), if I read my notes right.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am not aware of Themba being an informer?  Which Themba is that Mr Chairman?

UNKNOWN: Johannes Mbatha, known as Themba.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, I got that evidence here.  I did not know him to be an informer.  Nor would I believe De Kock would blow up an informer.

MR RICHARD: Yes, but we also know from I think it was Paul Erasmus, that your house was under 24 hour a day surveillance and indeed you described your own house as a police station?  Correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I am not sure if it isn't still under observation.  I believe it still it.

MR RICHARD: That might be.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Tragically.

MR RICHARD: But as my learned colleague, Mr Joseph said, one of the methods of the war at the time, was to infiltrate the enemy with informers and spies and sell outs and so on, correct?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now, unfortunately these circumstantial facts stand and there is an inference that my client's case is reasonably, probably true, thank you Ma'am, no further questions.

MR RICHARD: .

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Kuny?

MR KUNY: I represent Ms Xoliswa Falati.  Madam,  you stated in the Section 29 hearing in camera, that you believed Ms Falati was responsible for the kidnapping of the youths?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Can you repeat the question please.

MR KUNY: You stated in the in camera hearings when you gave evidence, that you believed Ms Falati was responsible for the kidnapping of the youths?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I stated that Falati brought the youths to me.

MR KUNY: Well, it was put to you, the statement that you had made, a press report that you had released on the second of October, are you aware of that report, this year?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes, if you can just refresh my memory what you are referring to.

MR KUNY: In that report, you made certain comments about Stompie Seipei's disappearance.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: Are you familiar with that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Yes.

MR KUNY: And that report was put to you in the Section 29 proceedings as to what you meant by that report, are you aware of that report?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: If you read the particular section you are referring to, I might be able to help.

MR KUNY: Do you not recall implicating Ms Falati in the kidnapping of the youths at this Section 29 proceedings?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I referred to Falati picking up the youths from the manse and I was not implicating her, it was a fact that she went to fetch the youths.

MR KUNY: Well, it was put to you by Mr Vally in those proceedings, in regard to this specific report, that Xoliswa Falati was responsible ...

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, can you give the ...

MR KUNY: I am referring to page 49.  These are the second volumes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR KUNY: You said, it was put to you Xoliswa Falati was responsible for the kidnapping.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: I think it was the way the question was phrased to me.

MR KUNY: Well, that was what was actually put to you.  Your answer was, yes, that is correct.

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It is correct that she collected the youths from the manse.  That the court subsequently interpreted that to be abduction, (indistinct) on the case that was being put across to us.

MR KUNY: Is it your evidence that there was or was not an abduction of the youths at the manse?  Are you disputing that?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: As far as I was concerned, evidence at that stage was that the youths had gone to the bus voluntarily.  And evidence has been led here in this forum that the youths were singing and toyi-toying when they got into the bus.  But then, as far as the court was concerned, they were abducted.

MR KUNY: Are you saying that at that stage that the allegations were brought to you regarding whether an abduction had taken place, you had no knowledge of that abduction?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: It wasn't that I had no knowledge of the abduction, I had no knowledge of the youths being forcibly removed.  It was stated to me that the youths had toyi-toyed into the bus.

MR KUNY: Do you accept today, having heard all the evidence before the Commission, that the youths were removed from the manse by application of some force?

MRS MADIKIZELA-MANDELA: Well, evidence has also been led here by, if I recollect correctly, by Morgan, who was the driver, who stated that in fact he saw them toyi-toying into the bus.

MR KUNY: Let me take it one step further Madam.  After the youths were brought to your house, is it your evidence that there was no detention of the boys against their will?