Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-28

MR PRIOR: I'm informed that NY129 and NY115 are very close to each other and when I say very close - are parallel to each other being divided by houses.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I clarified that it is in court that I heard where we abandoned the car, I cannot differentiate the streets in Khayelitsha.

MR PRIOR: I'm talking of Guguletu now.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, Guguletu, Guguletu is divided in different sections.

MR PRIOR: In any event Mr Sibaya says it was in road 115 or 113 very close to where you say you abandoned the vehicle, that he saw a dark blue vehicle and this white car.  I'm not asking any questions about it, I'm just stating that to you.  Now he also says after you drove off, he pick - sorry, not you, after these people had driven off he noticed that a piece of paper with directions on it indicating Heidelberg had been written on this piece of paper.  Do you know anything about that?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Sorry, Mr Chairman, just before the witness answers, can Mr Prior just indicate which statement he's putting that from because our reading of the statement says that Mr Sibaya says one thing in one statement and another thing in another statement.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] one of his statements.

NORMAN ARENDSE: Can he just indicate to the witness which one and when that statement was taken.

CHAIRPERSON: It doesn't matter whether he said it in one statement or the other, as long as he said it.  Did he say that?  If he said so in whichever statement, let him answer it.

NORMAN ARENDSE: As you please.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know anything at all about Mr Sibaya's evidence that he found a paper on which was written Heidelberg or Heidelberg Tavern, do you know anything about that?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Mr Chairman, it is difficult that we're talking about this person, such a man did not appear in court.  My question is why did he not appear in court?  Could that question be answered?

MR PRIOR: May I proceed Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

MR PRIOR: Did any of your colleagues leave a cap behind in the Opel Record?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I heard in court that inside the car not outside the car, the police found caps - inside the car not outside the car.

MR PRIOR: I'm asking you about inside the vehicle, I apologise if I gave you the impression it was outside.  Did any of you who were part of that attack, forget or leave behind - when you abandoned the vehicle, an item of your clothing - a cap in effect?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: There were things that were left behind in the car, I don't know specifically who left what.

MR PRIOR: I don't have the precise reference now but is it not correct that at the trial one of the pieces of evidence that connected either yourself, Mr Gqomfa or Mr Mabala was this cap from which hair samples were taken?  Is that right?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I had no cap, I've nothing to do with a cap - even the way you are putting it forward, it is not so.  There's only one person who had connection with this cap, comrade Mabala.

JUDGE WILSON: ...[inaudible]

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.  As far as you can remember, you can't assist us by saying whose cap or item of clothing was left behind in the vehicle?  It was certainly not your own ...[intervention]

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I did not see these articles, the articles that were left behind, I just hear of them.  I was told that the article that was found was comrade Zola's - I did not see it, it's an exhibit in court.

MR PRIOR: You see I must put it to you that Mr Sibaya also says that what he heard was when the men were moving away and just before they entered into the Audi, someone said something about a cap or a hat that had been left behind, referring to the other vehicle that is the dark vehicle.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: I wasn't on that street with Maxeba, it's the first time I hear about white cars and people - I don't know anything about this.  Who is this Sibaya, I don't know him.  There was a court of law, he was not there in the proceedings as a witness.  Why was he not there as a witness in court, please answer the question Sir.

MR PRIOR: Yes.  I want to just move away from the incident as such and just enquire about your political training.  Now you've told us that you were trained in the Transkei, you joined APLA in 1992.  Did you receive any information from for example, your commanders regarding the political climate in the country?  In other words regarding the armed struggle, that is from 1992 up until the time of the Heidelberg attack in '93.

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: There are classes within APLA, military classes - as a member of the PAC and APLA you were educated about what was going on in the country.

MR PRIOR: And so you were aware - I should imagine as a group within your unit, of the peace process that had been in place towards the end of 1993?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: What is the question specifically?

MR PRIOR: Were you aware that there were negotiations and there was a Transitional Executive Council in place by the end of 1993 because the elections were held in the very next year in April I understand.  Were you aware of that?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: Yes, I was aware Sir, however ...[intervention]

MR PRIOR: Were you also aware according to a report in the paper: "Rapport" of the 2nd of January '94 - you may not be aware of that exact publication but the information reported therein was that the PAC had - it said, maybe I just can quote and it's an Afrikaans quote
"The PAC of which APLA was the armed wing, however on his most recent Congress or Conference in Umtata decided to take part in this year's first non-racial elections"
	Mr Chairman, I do have copies of that particular publication which don't from part of the bundle, it was handed to me this morning.

ADV SANDI: Can you repeat the reference of that?

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway, what is the purpose of the question?

MR PRIOR: What I'm leading up to is there was also an indication that the PAC had indicated there was a moratorium on violence in November of 1992 and whether that was ever imparted to the cadres or whoever ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Was he aware of it?

MR PRIOR: Yes.  Maybe I can just put the question directly.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Were you aware of any moratorium on violence issued by the PAC of which you were a member, during 1992?  Did you ever receive such information?

MS GOZA: Excuse me Mr Chairman, the word: "moratorium" has not been properly interpreted.  The word: "moratorium" has not been properly interpreted.

MR PRIOR: That there was an agreement to stop for a certain period - a cessation of violence presumably to facilitate the peace process of the negotiations, did that information ever come down to you?  Did you ever learn of that?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: First of all, APLA has it's leadership, the PAC has it's own leadership.  APLA had a Secretary for Defence, Sabelo Pama, he made it clear that 1993 will be declared as the "Year of Great Storm".  1994 ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, the interpreter could not hear the last sentence.

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold it so that - the interpreter didn't hear the last sentence, can you just repeat it slowly please?  You said Sabelo Pama declared the year 1993 as the "Year of the Great Storm",  and 1994?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: 1994 was declared as the "Year of the Bullet and the Ballot"

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't get time to hear it, 1994 was declared as the year of ?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: "The Bullet and the Ballot"

CHAIRPERSON: The Ballot?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: "The Bullet and the Ballot"

INTERPRETER: If the witness could spell please the "Ballot" that he's talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: Please spell the word "Ballot" that you're talking about, spell it?

VUYISILE LEBRAN MADASI: This means that on the one hand we vote, on the other we fight.

CHAIRPERSON: The Ballot he's talking about - B-a-l-l-o-t.