Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

NICODEMUS SONO: Well, if you beat up a spy and he's getting hurt or if you suspect the person is a spy, what is the best thing that a person can relieve himself from, is to say, yes, I've got something.  The police used to do that.  We used to agree to things from the police, knowing very well it's not true.

MR SEMENYA: Now where does this come from ...(intervention)

NICODEMUS SONO: No, no.....

MR SEMENYA: Were you a spy?

NICODEMUS SONO: No, I am not a spy and I will never be one.

MR SEMENYA: Where do you get this theory that when people get accused they must conjure various scenarios?

NICODEMUS SONO: Well, that is part of the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I am so sorry, I mean, I think again we are not - you are not doing what you should be doing.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, what am I supposed to be doing?

CHAIRPERSON: Most people who live in South Africa would know certain things about the way police operated.  I mean I would have thought that that was common knowledge.

MR SEMENYA: Well, I don't want to fall foul again, what am I supposed to be doing, Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: I said to you that what we are seeking to do is - you, it is matters of fact that if you have to dispute and you are therefore wanting to put another version, let us have that particular version.

MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, with respect I do not know what is fact, and I think this TRC has been instituted to establish exactly what is fact.

CHAIRPERSON: That is exactly what we are seeking to do.

MR SEMENYA: Then I can only use the technique I know best to establish whether it is ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, you wonderful people at the back there, you have every freedom to say whatever you like - outside.  If you want to have comments you have every right, it's your constitutional right, but when you are in this hearing, will you please follow the procedures that I have laid out?  I don't want to be tough, but if you want to see me tough, I will be.  And I am just asking because we want this to be as amicable as you can make it.  But please don't tempt me.  Ja.

MR SEMENYA: Mr Sono, how many people are you saying are in the kombi?

NICODEMUS SONO: I don't know how many people were there, I did not count them.

MR SEMENYA: Is it possible to look back and reflect and tell more or less how many people are in the kombi?

NICODEMUS SONO: No.

MR SEMENYA: Do you know if Mr Sekamela is around?

NICODEMUS SONO: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Again through you, I don't know, we have not been afforded a statement of a Mr Sekamela. Do you know why that is so?

NICODEMUS SONO: I cannot answer that, you can ask that to the police. I don't know, because I gave them everything.

MR SEMENYA: So other than Mr Sekamela, Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela, Lolo, in the car who else do you say is there?

NICODEMUS SONO: Other young men that were not known to me.

MR SEMENYA: According to my recollection and my reading of the record it is the very first time today that you say Mrs Madikizela-Mandela said, "I am taking this dog to the movement".

NICODEMUS SONO: Is it a question?

MR SEMENYA: Am I correct sir, or not?

NICODEMUS SONO: No, you're not correct.

MR SEMENYA: When did you say, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela said I am taking this dog, not away, to the movement, when did you say that any other occasion?

NICODEMUS SONO: I did say it many times, I can't recall how many times I said that.

MR SEMENYA: Well, I can just put it to you, it doesn't appear in the record and I have tried to read the record as carefully as I could. Now, according to that statement, then you knew that he would have been taken to the movement, is that correct?

NICODEMUS SONO: I had that belief.

MR SEMENYA: So why do you go to her to ask where Lolo Sono is?

NICODEMUS SONO: I have to know if somebody has crossed the borders they usually respond or tell people, where some people will know where they are.

MR SEMENYA: Let me put it this way, at what point do you begin to be uncomfortable about Lolo's safety?

NICODEMUS SONO: Ask your question simple, at what point - do you mean time frame or you mean month or something?  Just be specific.

MR SEMENYA: Anyone that you choose, sir.

NICODEMUS SONO: I have explained that, you know, when all sort of things came out I started being concerned.  Everybody has got their doubts. I had doubts as a human being.

MR SEMENYA: What is your answer, sir?

NICODEMUS SONO: My answer is that I had doubts, although I have mentioned first that, after Stompie's death, I started raising my eyebrows and things.  It is correct that I must have doubts.

MR SEMENYA: And it is precisely after Stompie that you go and ask for financial assistance from Mrs Mandela?

NICODEMUS SONO: Before that.

MR SEMENYA: Was it before?

NICODEMUS SONO: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: As you would have heard from Mr Vally, the version that there was Mrs Mandela with a kombi (indistinct) Lolo Sono at your house is incorrect.  Do you want to give a further response?

NICODEMUS SONO: It is not correct, it's hundred per cent right.

MR SEMENYA: I have also had an opportunity to go through the record of the earlier proceedings. Chairperson, the copy I have is not numbered, so I don't know. But I will try to refer to a particular section.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just ask, would you be able to indicate just how long, how much longer you want to go on so that if it is substantial then maybe we should break for lunch.

MR SEMENYA: I would think it more convenient that we take the lunch adjournment now, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.  We'll break now and return at half past.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Please just settle.  Mr Semenya?

MR SEMENYA: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I have asked for order, please.  Will the people at the back kindly note I have said, order?  Thank you.

MR SEMENYA: Thank you, Chairperson.  Mr Sono, my reading of the transcript in the earlier occasion gives me an impression that you say the only person who was very helpful to you was Tony Leon.  I think that's the leader of the Democratic Party.

NICODEMUS SONO: Please ask the question again.

MR SEMENYA: I gain an impression, within the record, that you say the only person who was helpful to you was Tony Leon?

NICODEMUS SONO: Yes, he was helpful to me.

MR SEMENYA: In what manner was he helpful, financially?

NICODEMUS SONO: Not financially, but he did make sure that they pursue the matter somehow or the other.

MR SEMENYA: Did he assist you in flying to Cape Town to see Mr Fivaz?

NICODEMUS SONO: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: So he organised your ticket?

NICODEMUS SONO: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: Over and above the ticket what does Tony Leon give you?

NICODEMUS SONO: Nothing.

MR SEMENYA: So you had nothing to eat for the duration of your trip?

NICODEMUS SONO: Come again?

MR SEMENYA: Okay, you tell us, sir, that the only thing Tony Leon organised for you was the air ticket, is that right?

NICODEMUS SONO: Yes.

MR SEMENYA: And you say he did what he can in any other way, what do you mean?

NICODEMUS SONO: I mean as a member of Parliament he did raise that in the Parliament, that's what I'm saying.

MR SEMENYA: I would have expected as an ANC member you would have found people within the ANC to assist you.

NICODEMUS SONO: I did go to the ANC. I did not get an assistance and I never cared who helped me, whether Tony Leon or anybody who had interest, I would have welcomed the help.

MR SEMENYA: As I read another section of the record, when attempts were made to locate the place where bodies would have been buried, you come out quite pronounced to say that you have no confidence in the person that was doing the pointing out.

NICODEMUS SONO: In which manner do you ask that question?