Human Rights Violation Hearings — Moutse — 1996-12-02

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you.  The reason that I asked that was because I think it is on Wednesday, we actually have a statement, on Thursday I think, from the family of the Fourie.  I am sure you know the incident of the policeman Fourie and his wife and in the statement there these allegations, but so I just wondered if you could enlighten us about some of the things that were happening during that period, but if you say you cannot then we accept that.

UNKNOWN: I would not have the truth about the Fourie incident.  I was just a member of MK, but I did not play a role there.

CHAIRPERSON: Tom Manthata.

THOMAS MANTHATA: My interest will be in the process of bringing reconciliation between the two groups and realising that there are these two strong schools of thought.  Namely that of the ANC youth, you know, the Kadai, you know, the idea of democratic leadership and that of the traditional leadership which, I think, as you have said already, might still be responsible for the lack of understanding of the masses who keep referring to Mathebele and so on about, you know, the real, what the real problem was.  Now, I want to find out how do you marry the two.  That is the democratic, you know, thinking in terms of running communities and the traditional thinking of running the communities.

UNKNOWN: To have democratically elected leaders and MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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the traditional leaders they have no conflict at all.  Let me put it this way.  As I talk we have democratically elected leaders and they traditional leaders and all of them are working together.  Those who were elected are looking for developments and other issues.  The traditional leaders are looking at the traditional issues, but they are able to consult each other when they have this plan or these objectives, they come to the other group therefore they advise each other.  Even the other group which has a problem they go to the other group there, they talk to each other.  There will be no way where there will be a conflict of interests.  They are working together, they are able to help each other.  I do not see any problem of reconciliation of the two schools of thought.

THOMAS MANTHATA: Thank you.  That gives us hope.  No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Wynand.

MR MALAN: May I just get back to the role of the police in this conflict on New Year's Eve, New Year's Day 1986.  In your statement and evidence you said that they were providing the security and moving in and I asked you for the question as to their mutual involvement, their mutual organised effort, but you also say in your statement that the police did not get involved.  You say scores of people were killed in the attack and counter-attack.  All the police did was to collect corpses and no further action.  Did the not get involved even in trying to stop counter-attacks?

UNKNOWN: The incidence which I have counted are numerous.  There is nowhere where police were not involved.  They were involved, all of them.  In other incidences they
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were involved in the destabilising the area.  The Imbokhoto would come there after.  In other areas the police would just shoot directly.  That is where I talked about the death of the young person and in the incidence, another issue, the police just came to collect the corpse.  They would not come during the fighting.  We would see the Hippos far from the village and then the fighting would go on.  Thereafter when the fight has subsided or when their side is winning, then they would come.  They would collect the dead bodies and then leave.

MR MALAN: So they were not directly involved in the fighting?  Is that what you are saying?  They were watching from a distance?  I will tell you why I am asking this.

UNKNOWN: No.  I am coming.  In that New Year incidence they were coming to collect the corpse.  In other incidences they were directly responsible.  At Motete they would prepare for Imbokhoto to attack.  In other incidents they would have a different involvement.  In other incidences they would have a different involvement.

MR MALAN: I am referring simply to that night of the first of January 1986.  That is the only incident that I am referring to.

UNKNOWN: Do you mean the incidence when they were collecting corpses at Montwane?

MR MALAN: Yes, well, through that night.  Are you saying that they ...?

UNKNOWN: In that incidence the police came to collect the corpses, but they were at a distance and they came in the village and then they stabilised the area.  Then they left.  Then Imbokhoto came in.  We were fighting with Imbokhoto and the police were not involved at that time.
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Later they came to collect the corpses.

MR MALAN: How did they destabilise the area that night and left before Imbokhoto came in?  If you say they just destabilised the area and left, what did they do?  I want to find out, I want to understand what the role of the police was.

UNKNOWN: They would drive the Hippos inside the streets then when they see a person they will shoot teargas and they would shoot teargas near the houses of the people so that people should lock themselves inside the houses and during that confusion they would leave.  Thereafter Imbokhoto would come in.  Then Imbokhoto would come and attack.

MR MALAN: So should this not then be referred to as the night of the police attack and not the Imbokhoto attacks?  It sounds now the way you put it as if the police led?

UNKNOWN: This is a fight of the police and it is a joint attack of the police and the Imbokhoto.

MR MALAN: And the police came first and Imbokhoto cleaned up.

UNKNOWN: Yes, the police came first, threw teargas and then there was confusion, then Imbokhoto came later.

MR MALAN: And that was the pattern that repeated itself through that night?

UNKNOWN: No.

MR MALAN: Not.

UNKNOWN: They did it, the disturbance did not last for a long time.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Chief.  We do not know if the old man has something to say.  Does he have something to MOUTSE HEARING TRC/MPUMALANGA
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say?

MR GIYANE: I think what the Chief has said is all true.  All what the Chief has said, is all true.  When the Chief told you that we were assaulted, we were beaten up, I was an old man, but I was beaten up with the back of a gun from where I was staying up to Simbopoero.  I was beaten up with the back of the gun.  That is what made us very angry.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  We thank you very much and we thank the Chief very much.  We thank you together with the Chief who gave the evidence in the morning.  In Sipedi we say that people should be one mind.  We are all aware that you are all striving that the people of this country should all be one thing, be one nation which you people are demonstrating and your determination so that people should not be divided by the conflicts or the ethnical groups.  There is great hope for our country in the fact that there are people like yourselves who are seeking to give that kind of leadership.  I have to say that many of you have been very impressive as diparkimo and you have been particularly ...
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