Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

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179 COL VENTER

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I then call ColonelVenter to give evidence.

COL VENTER: (sworn states)

UNKNOWN: Colonel Venter could you please turn topage 3 of your application and then briefly tell the Committeewhat your background is, the background to your career.

COL VENTER: In 1965 I matriculated at the high schoolPiet Potgieter and I then went to the SAP College for trainingof six months.  I was then transferred to the SAP Bramley.  SinceMarch 1968 I was with the security branch, initially in Johannesburg. During this period I also performed border duty on three differentoccasions in the then Rhodesia.  I was then stationed at the securitybranch at John Vorster Square in Johannesburg until 1969 afterwhich I went to Katimo Mulalo.  In 1971, 1972 I performed clandestinework in Pretoria whilst I was with the security headquarters. 1979 to 1983 I was attached to the security branch Rustenberg,after which I went to Thabazimbi.  In 1983 I was transferred toZeerust.  1 December 1984 I was transferred to the security branchheadquarters where I worked for unit C1 under the command of ColonelCronje, until August 1985.  Then I was transferred to C2 headquarters,security headquarters, and there I stayed until 1990 and I wasthen transferred to the security branch Northern Transvaal until1st of March 1995.

UNKNOWN: I would like you to comment on one ortwo aspects which Brigadier Cronje testified about, could youplease comment on the San Hedrun, if you could perhaps just addto what Brigadier Cronje said.

COL VENTER: The San Hedrun worked as follows.  Each
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security branch in the country, as far as incidents in their particularareas, they reported on this on a daily basis to the regionaloffice, upon which the regional offices conveyed this to headquartersby fax or telex or cryptogram and it was then conveyed to therelevant desk as well as to the staff of the Commissioner.  Theinformation was processed and on a daily basis conferences wereheld regarding the incidents of the previous day and contributionswere then made by the various commanding officers of the variousdesks.

UNKNOWN: Thank you.  Is there anything you wouldlike to add in respect of TREVETS?

ADV DE JAGER: Could you just tell us please C1, whichunit was that?

COL VENTER: C1 was the unit which operated from Vlakplaas.

ADV DE JAGER: And C2?

COL VENTER: C2 was the unit which operated from headquartersand they were concerned with interrogations of arrested terroristsand the like.  I may add that C3 was TREVETS, as previously mentioned.

UNKNOWN: As far as TREVETS is concerned could youadd anything to what Brigadier Cronje said?

COL VENTER: I may just mention that the headquarter componentof TREVETS consisted of security branch members under the commandof a security branch member and there was also a member of militaryintelligence, as well as a member of national intelligence.  Thesemembers were permanently seconded and they worked with the securitybranch people.  On a monthly basis meetings were held in the variousregions with the regions' representatives involved in investigatingacts of terrorism.  At these meetings targets were
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identified and prominent people involved, initially only abroadbut later also within the borders of the country.  We compileda list of names of these people so that we could have a prioritylist regarding their activities and involvement, internally aswell as outside the borders of the country.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Colonel.  One further aspect,can you add anything about the destruction of documents?  Youdeal with that on page 20.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Excuse me, can I, before proceeding to that,could you please just explain to us what was contained in thepriority list, what kind of information was contained in thatlist?

COL VENTER: The priority list contained targets and thisdealt with installations in other countries which was used asa basis from where people infiltrated the country, MK members. Internally what was involved was places of safety and transithouses where activists and trained terrorists were sheltered andwhere prospective candidates who were about to go for trainingwere accommodated or were in transit to the various points oftraining.  The priority lists were kept on the basis of informationobtained and these contained the names of the people who weremost active at the time whether inside or outside the country.

UNKNOWN: Now Colonel could you please ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: What were they priority for, what was intendedto be done to these people?

COL VENTER: Chairperson that is where the role of specialforces was involved as has been said here, there were actionsoutside the country as well as inside the country
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and that information was collected for that purpose and for actionslike those.

JUDGE WILSON: What sort of actions against these people?

COL VENTER: I am not aware of what type of attacks thesewere but there were attacks on houses and internally on residencesof activists and that is the type of information which was collectedat these monthly meetings.

JUDGE WILSON: But you talked about lists of people, nothouses, you talked a moment ago that lists of people were drawnup.

COL VENTER: That is correct.  If I say that houses wereattacked then it would be the houses belonging to the people whosenames were on the list, or where they lived.  There was a targetanalysis which was done regarding these houses.

JUDGE WILSON: So there would be no personal attacks againstpeople, there were attacks against houses and buildings, are yousaying there were no attacks against people?  That this list wasnot for the extermination of people?

COL VENTER: No Chairperson.  I think you have misunderstoodme.  The two lists operated jointly.  If a person's name was onthe list and he was identified as a target then necessarily theplace where he lived or stayed would be investigated and analysedso that it could be attacked.

JUDGE WILSON: No attacks against people, I repeat thequestion, is that what you are telling us?

COL VENTER: No, no Mr Chairman.  Attacks were directedat people.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But when the list was put up, of these people,was it put up for the purpose of launching attacks
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on them?  I am not talking about the buildings, I am talking aboutthe individual people on the list.

COL VENTER: That is what I am trying to say.  The listwas compiled containing the names of people. Those people wereabout to be attacked.  But the person necessarily has to stayin a particular house, so the house was targeted, the addresshad to be investigated to determine whether the person was stillstaying there otherwise we would be attacking houses to no avail.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: You are saying that that is what you aretrying to say, but it is difficult for us to understand you likethat.  Are you aware that to qualify for amnesty you will haveto make a full disclosure of everything that you know?

COL VENTER: Chairperson that's why I am saying I thinkyou misunderstood me.  I said right from the outset that we compileda list of targets and a list persons.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Yes but you didn't tell us for what purpose,the purpose was never mentioned.

COL VENTER: I don't want to mislead the Commission becauseI was still going to get to the purpose of these monthly meetings.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But my colleague struggled to get an answerfrom you as to the objective and the purpose of these lists.

COL VENTER: Chairperson I am sorry if I gave that impressionbut it's not my purpose to mislead you in any way.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Colonel did the list not contain informationof names of people to be attacked in a particular order?