Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-11-19

MS PATEL: I put it to you, Mr Bellingan, that you have not made full disclosure to this Committee and that you have misled the Committee and, more importantly, you have misled the victim's families and through that, you have misled the nation.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Mr Chairman, I do not agree with this statement.

MS PATEL: Thank you Mr Chairperson, that is the end of my cross-examination.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Bellingan, just a few aspects.  If you, you have already told us that you are applying for amnesty for other deeds?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And without going into any further detail, are there cases for which you apply for amnesty, because you have executed a person?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: It was suggested to you that, for one or other reason, you have not made full disclosure and are only telling half truths.  If you, as alleged by the other witnesses, if you have dragged this person from the car and shot him dead and if it could be argued that you have shot him dead while he was lying on the ground or that you have planned to ambush these people and shoot them dead, is there any other reason why you think you should not apply for amnesty?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: One aspect which surprised all of us is the question that you are now saying that you can recall that you did, before this incident, visited the scene together with Mbane.  Is that correct?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: At that stage when we drew up your application, and I am referring to page 35, paragraph 22, yes, paragraph 22, page 31, page, paragraph 22, the information you provided there, was that how you remembered it at that stage?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Did you discuss this with Mr Liebenberg and he supported you in this sense?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And now, when it was put to you like, that was what Mbane said, you remembered that?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: If you had remembered that, that you and Mbane went to that scene the previous Friday, do you think that would, it would have affected your amnesty application in any, one or other way?  For example, if you have inserted here that we visited that scene?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, I believe it would have put the truth on the paper.

MR BOOYENS: Do you think it would have prejudiced you?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: You have been confronted with medical testimony of wounds, etcetera.  Can you comment on the medical evidence?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, I cannot.  I agree with what it says.

MR BOOYENS: Can you comment at all, do you know in which position this man's head or body was at the moment when you pulled the trigger?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, I could not see it.  I was, I just saw this man and I shot him.  I just saw the hand, I did not know whether his head was turned around or halfway turned around.  I cannot remember.

MR BOOYENS: At the stage that you shot him, did you come running towards him, were you moving or were you standing still?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, I was moving.

CHAIRPERSON: Which direction?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I was running towards the Kombi, towards the back, so that in case the hand grenade exploded, I could go for cover.

CHAIRPERSON: If the hand grenade exploded when you were two or three metres away, you would not have much chance to go to cover, would you?  You were running towards somebody who, you say, was threatening you with a hand grenade in his hand, looking as if he was going throw it to you and if you shot him, he would drop the, that hand grenade and you would be going right towards it.  Is that what you are saying?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, I would have moved to the right of him and tried to hide behind the Kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: But you had no idea how, when the grenade would go off, you were going towards.  I find it very hard to accept that anyone would voluntarily go towards a hand grenade that, in the circumstances, was triggered.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I was moving towards the intersection, when I reached the intersection I saw this man, so I was already at the so-called danger point.

MS PATEL: Mr Chairperson, I am not sure whether I would be allowed to do this, but there is a point that I wish to raise on this that I have omitted.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL

MS PATEL: Thank you.
	Mr Bellingan, can you remember in which hand Mr Konile was carrying the instrument?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: No, I cannot.

MS PATEL: All right, then I will leave it there.  Thank you.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS (cont)

MR BOOYENS: With possible further relating, relations to the hand grenade question.  If the hand grenade is in someones hand, is it already dangerous?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: But now I am saying, that has it been fused, is it ready to explode?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Not necessarily, it depends on whether the pin has been pulled out.

MR BOOYENS: And you saw the person with what you thought was a hand grenade, you shot him.  Did you then take cover after he fell or did you not?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: I was at the back of the Kombi and that was my cover and nothing happened.  Everything happened very fast.

MR BOOYENS: So, to summarise, you saw the hand grenade, you shot him, he fell and you ran in behind the Kombi?

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: Yes, that is correct, I moved to the right-hand side.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: A few questions.  Firstly, I have a few questions.  Firstly, I have already raised the question of wanting to be informed of the other ten matters in which you are applying for amnesty for, the schedules, which we have not had made available to us as yet.

MR BOOYENS: Can I deal with that, Mr Chairman?  As far as I know, only skeleton applications have been filed thus far.  The reference you will find, the only reference and the other documents, we were instructed at a fairly late stage, the other documents are in the process of preparation, so what you will find will be hand written wisdom and not much more.  So, in other words, referring to page 21, Schedules one to six and eight to 11 does not, is not yet in the possession of the Commission.  So, please, if anybody deserves to be reprimanded for that, it is not my learned colleague on the other side, it is me.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it be possible for you just to prepare a list?  Cosatu House, I take it, is a bombing and the date of them, really.

MR BOOYENS: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: That, to get some sort of sequence of the events, if you could put, are they in the date order, in one to 11, or not.  If you could possibly, I do not want to see the details of them, just the date and the nature of the offence.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, what we will do is we will just, Cosatu House bomb and the date, if we can remember, and then also just what it was that happened in the specific instances.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, now, I want to ask you about page 18 of your application.  The paragraph in about the centre of the page you refer to your return to Pretoria, had become more concerned in the total onslaught and he wanted you as a group leader to return to Vlakplaas and this is between, you remained there from 1985 to 1993.

W RIAAN BELLINGAN: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you and your group were concerned with arrests and shooting incidents, when necessary, where many ANC, PAC terrorists were concerned.
"I can, unluckily, not remember all the names, the incidents and the dates where ANC, PAC terrorists were arrested or killed, because the documents have been destroyed."
Can you give us an indication of how many terrorists were killed by your operation, alleged terrorists were killed by your operations?