Amnesty Hearings — Tzaneen — 1999-05-05

MS MTANGA: Mr Mahumela would like to know do you know of his whereabouts from the 12th after he had been kicked by yourself and your team, what happened to him between the 12th and the 14th of November?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Does he want to know where he himself was or where Mr Nesamari was?

CHAIRPERSON: He wants to know where he himself was.  He says he was unconscious.  He doesn't know where he was from the 12th to the 14th.  He now wants to know if you know where he was from the 12th to the 14th.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Maybe if we were to look at the books from the police station we may be able to know where he was detained.  I don't know exactly as to where he was taken during his arrest.  I just want to say if we look at the books further back they will be able to help us.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Do you or don't you know?  We don't want to be looking at the books.  Do you know where he was after he had been assaulted in your presence by Tinavuyo?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: I don't know whether he was detained and where he was detained.  I can't make a clear recollection of that.

MS MTANGA: Are you able to say whether, as a result of the injuries, resulting from the beating and the kicking, Mr Mahumela was ever hospitalised?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: That could be possible.  I cannot say I exactly remember what happened.

MS MTANGA: Do you remember or don't you remember?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: I can't remember at all.  That is why I am not sure whether he was taken to the prison or he went directly to the hospital thereafter.  Please pardon me on that.  I don't know.

MS MTANGA: You have already denied that you were part of the team that tortured Mr Mahumela, do you know if ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't say that Ms Mtanga.  I think he - we dwelled on it a long time, he said he can't remember.

MS MTANGA: I am sorry Chairperson.  You have indicated that you don't remember assaulting or torturing Mr Mahumela, do you remember if any person was in the room with you, in the interrogating room, ever applied electrical shocks on Mr Mahumela's private parts?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: No I can't remember anything.

SISI KHAMPEPE: May I interpose Ms Mtanga.  The people who effected the arrest on Mr Mahumela were yourself, Nerenjene and Chivasa, is it not so - Netshivale?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well that's how it was - I don't remember ...(intervention)

MR MEYER: Mr Chairman if I can just come in here.  With respect I don't agree totally with what is being said.  He also said with regard to that he can't dispute it - it's possible.  He can't remember that either, that he was part of the team and that those were the other team members. The names that have been mentioned.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Yes, he will say that.  You were present when Mr Mahumela was arrested, were you not?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well I do agree that I might have been the person who arrested him, but I do doubt whether Mr Nerenjene was there.  That's why I was so doubtful whether he was a member of the Security then.  I am not too clear whether he was there.

SISI KHAMPEPE: So you cannot recall whether you were present when an arrest of Mr Mahumela was effected?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Let me say the Committee should understand that with regard to Mr Mahumela's case there's not much that I can recall because I don't even know where we found him, where we arrested him and I am not disputing that I took part in the arrest.  But just where we arrested him and the subsequent information I can't tell exactly.

SISI KHAMPEPE: I am not interested about how the arrest was effected.  I want to know whether you were part of the unit or the team that effected the arrest?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well I do agree that I might have been part.  That is why I don't want to dispute that I wasn't there.  As the Committee is showing it to me I might have been involved together with the other members but I don't want to say I can remember exactly how the events took place.  Pardon me for that.

SISI KHAMPEPE: The reason why I am asking this question is because of all the persons mentioned by Ms Mtanga to you as having been part of the arresting team do not constitute the investigating team as evidenced by the other members, the senior members who were working under initially Mr Sofuwa and later under Mr Ramushwana.  And then the only person who would make up the team would be yourself.

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: With regard to the arrest it was not really necessary for one to be a member of the team because during the arrest as many policemen were required because they will send anybody just to arrest, as long as there was a directive.  Any member who was around will be called in just to give support.  That is why I am saying I don't want to dispute that, that I was involved in the arrest.

MS MTANGA: In your evidence before the Panel you have testified that you severely beat up Mr Chikororo and you severely tortured him.  In your opinion, after you had severely beaten him and severely tortured him did he require medical attention or not?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Yes, Mr Chikororo - I don't know how I can really describe this because I don't know the terms that the doctors really put but I could really observe that he was very weak.  That is why I am saying we had broken him into - he was very weak.  Well I can't explain in detail.

MS MTANGA: Are you not able to tell the Committee the visible signs of the witness you are referring to?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: With regard to the visible signs that one could remember and observe with the naked eye, I don't think I could identify anything, but physically let me say he was severely beaten, with internal and he was so weak.

MS MTANGA: Mr Nesamari did Mr Chikororo appear mentally disturbed after your torture and beating?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well I don't want to commit myself.  Maybe the doctors will be able to give evidence.  Well not to my naked eye.  I don't want to commit myself, I will lie then.

MS MTANGA: When Mr Chikororo testifies he will testify that the reason that he was taken to hospital was because he appeared to be mentally disturbed.  Do you dispute this?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: I can't dispute that.

MS MTANGA: Are you also aware that another visible sign of his weakness, as you say, was that after he was tortured by you his urine was black for three months after the torture?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: I didn't observe that.  Well I can't really dispute that.

MS MTANGA: Did you apply electric shocks on Mr Chikororo's private parts?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: No I didn't reach there, the private parts.  However, with regard to the other parts of the body, well I did that severely.

MS MTANGA: For how long did you torture Mr Chikororo?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: A long time, very long time.  Maybe in a day's time.

MS MTANGA: Would you dispute Mr Chikororo's evidence that you tortured him for the whole day and part of the evening?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well I don't dispute that as well, I can't dispute that.  It's true he was tortured severely.  I can't dispute that.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

SISI KHAMPEPE: Did I not understand your previous evidence to have referred to him being interrogated and tortured for three days, when you were giving your viva voce evidence?

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: Well it's true.  I said it could have been three or four days.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Why now do you say you can't remember.  You were able to give ...(intervention)

TAKALANI JOSEPH NESAMARI: I thought the question wanted me to talk about the period of time that is why I was able to say Mr Chikororo would say he was tortured the whole day.  I don't know the question wanted me to say the period of time.  Please pardon me if I didn't understand the question.