Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-18

MR VALLY: I ask you whether - I have two questions before lunch Mr Chair, just two questions. I ask you if you are aware of any scientific text anywhere in the world with the exception of what is produced at Delta G under Project Jotta relating to the usage of Ecstasy, Mandrax, Dagga as incapacitants? Can you refer to me?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Am I personally aware of any documentation? No I am not.

MR VALLY: Not. As project manager of Operation Jotta can you tell us unequivocally that you can account for the 200 000 Mandrax tablets which were given by General Neethling to Brigadier Basson, for the 250 kg of Dagga and for the 5 000 LSD tablets? Can you tell me as project manager that you can account for those items?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: How do you mean account Mr Vally?

MR VALLY: Well received at point A by so and so, developed, analysed, crushed, extracts removed from it at point B thereafter this was the waste matter disposed of in this way. This was the active substance. That kind of detail that any scientist would be able to give you?

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: No Sir I don't have that kind of detail. All that I have in front of me is what we had on our shelf as reported by the project officer. What we reported to Mr Louw and what we had destroyed as I gave it to you this morning.

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe this is a convenient stage to take the lunch adjournment. We will adjourn until two.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS: .
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally I understood that two things stood over. The one was that you and Mr Arendse were going to decide which documents are covered by Category 2 of the agreement and which are not. And I do not know whether that exercise has been gone into and what the outcome thereof is.
 Secondly you indicated that new evidence was brought in this morning in the form of documentation from General Knobel that it was your view that in order to do justice to your case you might need some time to look at that document. I don't know how far you have gone.
 We have a time problem. There is a scheduled meeting of the Commission at half past two that is intending to look at a wide range of issues including issues that deal with the final report. I think arrangements have been made with a number of Commissioners to be present and I have seen some that are present. So I don't know how long you were expecting to be with Dr Knobel. But I was not hoping to be here later than half past two. At the very worst quarter to three. So I need to know where we move from here. I do not know what the position is with regard to Dr Wouter Basson. What the position is to Dr Mijburgh and whether you still need to call further evidence in the event those two are going to testify or one of them is going to testify. So I need to be guided by you but I have already indicated what my own time constraints are and I am speaking on behalf of the panel when I say so. It has nothing to do with any other events which are of a national interest today.

MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chairperson. On the first two issues there is a standard response. The documents that my learned friend, Advocate Arendse and I were supposed to go through are the very same documents which were presented to us by Dr Knobel this morning. It will not be possible for us to have gone through all those documents. So we will have to do it at some stage. Which leads me up to the next point that in view of these new documents and we may have to ask some questions pertaining to those documents that we may have to recall General Knobel to another day where we can go through these documents with him. If that is going to be agreeable then we can get as far as we can by half past two and if necessary we can then postpone this hearing.
 It will also be necessary to call Dr Mijburgh. We have just had an indication for the very first time that he has now agreed that he will give evidence. So what we could do is co-ordinate with the various legal representatives suitable dates and then we can complete with General Knobel, deal with Dr Mijburgh also on that date. And we will have had a chance to go through all the documents and determine which ones are potentially of danger to proliferation.

CHAIRPERSON: There has been much on the record certainly from the evidence of Dr Knobel that suggested the possible calling of Mr Mike Kennedy. Is there any indication with regard to that?

MR VALLY: Well we have been advised that should we need to call Mr Mike Kennedy he would require proper notice so that he has an opportunity to get the assistance of legal counsel. However I could suggest that if General Knobel was to indicate more specifically than he has in his presentation what issues he wants Mr Kennedy to raise we could possibly get an affidavit from Mr Kennedy and read it into the record if it is acceptable to General Knobel.

DANIEL PETER KNOBEL: Mr Chairman yes I think it would be acceptable to me. I would have to go and think about it a little bit but the important issues that are relevant here are the chronology of events and the briefings that were given by myself and Mr Kennedy either together or separately on a number of occasions, that I think are important from my point of view. I did as you have noticed this morning in my statement try to indicate where the information is contained in what I called appendix K which is the Operation Cloud report. And I steered away deliberately from dealing with it point by point. It was before you arrived that I was going through some of the other documents. For the very purpose that it then begins to become a problem with regards to proliferation and so on. But those are, let me say those are the critical stage between the demarche and what followed thereafter. Up to the point where we briefed Mr Mandela on that one and Mr Mbeki. That would be the, if that helps Mr Vally that would be the region where I really think it is important that Mr Kennedy should be able to testify thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Arendse do you want to say anything in this regard?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Chairperson yes. Can I get an indication whether we are going to utilise tomorrow? You will recall that not only Mr Cilliers but I also had a problem with today and tomorrow. So things have been shifted around to accommodate tomorrow and I was wondering whether it is not possible then to continue with General Knobel tomorrow. In so far as the documents are concerned I got them late last night. I spent some time going through them. I would have thought that Mr Vally and Mr Chaskalson could do the same and before we start tomorrow we could have agreement on the issue of the documents.

CHAIRPERSON: I gather that the purpose of having Thursday and Friday when we originally arranged for Thursday and Friday to be the dates, that is today and tomorrow was that was the expectation that we would hear all the evidence to completion. As things stand now we are not going to do that in any event. So the thinking is that we do not sit tomorrow and that the proceedings should be adjourned to a date, in fact to dates to be arranged which would therefore mean all those who are affected by the adjournment should put their heads together and find suitable dates. Such dates to be in the immediate future in view of possibly in July. Mr Arendse do I read something on your face?

NORMAN ARENDSE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: May I know what it is that is written on your face? It is in hieroglyphics.

NORMAN ARENDSE: No if that is your view Chairperson and of the Committee's then obviously I will abide by it and we have to arrange dates as soon as possible. But I foresee a problem on my side. That is what is written on my face.

CHAIRPERSON: We will try and accommodate you. Do you have anything to say? Thank you. Mr Vally.