Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-10-20

NICLO PEDRO: I must mention that I was arrested on the Saturday morning the 15th of August, on the 16th of August I arrived in Cape Town - that was the Sunday because they drove me down to Cape Town overnight.  I didn't sleep at all that night, I was also a little bit hungry.  Whilst I was being interrogated they also asked me whether I wanted to eat something and I said yes, I would like to eat something.  They then gave me - I think if I recall correctly, chips and the reason why I'm mentioning this is that it was offered to me - the food and every time that I wanted to take something to eat they would bring it to my mouth and then pull back as soon as I wanted to bite it.   So in affect I had nothing to eat.
	And my further experiences as regards this interrogation were that I was hit - I was physically hit by Benzien and Nortje, more so by Benzien than by Nortje.   On that specific Sunday they had already earlier on that day, asked me whether I wanted to make a statement in front of a Magistrate and I said that I didn't want to make a statement and that I wasn't prepared to do that.  
	But there was this one specific incident - in the process of giving them some information, they wanted to know from me who these people were that I was supposed to have met in Lesotho.  I was given instructions to carry a letter which I should not open until such time as I had crossed the Lesotho border and then I would find out who these people were and where I was supposed to meet them.  And I followed these instructions, I didn't open the letter.
	When I was arrested, I did away with the letter.  When they questioned me about this I answered them and I think to my regret, I said to them that I'd eaten the letter.   When I told them this, Benzien told me that he wanted to know who these people were that I was supposed to meet in Lesotho.  He then took me out of that room in the Culemborg building and took me to a different place, it was somewhere at the back of a building.  I can recall that we went past some steps and we went round the back and it was almost an open plan type of room.  
	There he told me that I should defecate because he wanted to actually get this letter out of my stomach.  And whilst I was busy defecating he put plastic gloves, surgical gloves on his hands and he put his hand into my anus.  When I told him what he was doing would not get the letter back - when the full knowledge that I hadn't actually swallowed or eaten the letter, he then took a broom which was standing close by and he then pressed this into my anus to try and get hold of the letter.
	There was very little which actually came out of my stomach because I hadn't had a lot to eat and as far as I can recall yes, there wasn't much that came out of my stomach.  I can't recall very specifically what period of time this was but from quite late that day I was really quite tired, I was very sleepy.  The interrogation took place during the whole of that day and it was late that night when I started giving out information to Benzien.  It was that night - if I recall correctly, that I went to point out houses belonging to my comrades. 
	He took me along specifically, he covered my head - that I can recall, when he was driving with me.  Furthermore when I was taken to the Sea Point police cells, I was handcuffed - my feet were handcuffed to the bed and basically I fell asleep because I was so tired.  I was forced to urinate and to defecate whilst I was so manacled to the bed or handcuffed to the bed.  In any event, the point I'm trying to make is that in that time they brought some of my comrades in there and they told them that I'm the one that's responsible for their arrests, that I'm the one that's working with them.
	I can clearly remember Anwar Dramat told me he was in my cell, I don't know about that.  But whenever they wanted to question me they would wake me up and take me back to Culemborg.  I think that's my experiences with this man Benzien.  I developed a - he installed a fear in me.  When other security policemen came to me I would feel more relaxed but when Benzien comes to me, it was difficult for me to be relaxed.  
	He was the type of person that - he can speak to you very nicely and he can come across as the world's friendliest person and within a second he can change and he become and behave like an animal.  That's how I experienced him.

MR DONAN: Can ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Donan, we'll take the short adjournment at this stage.

JUDGE WILSON: Short?

CHAIRPERSON: Rather the adjournment, we'll resume at 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

NICLO PEDRO: (s.u.o.)

MR DONAN: (cont)
	Thank you.  Mr Pedro, during the course of your interrogation, did the name Ashley Kriel ever crop up?

NICLO PEDRO: Yes, the name did.  In fact it was during my interrogation that Benzien asked me whether I know Ashley Kriel and I told him: "Yes, I know him" and he told me that he's the one that killed Ashley Kriel and that I'm lucky to be alive still.

MR DONAN: Colonel Smith, did you ever see him during the course of your interrogation?

NICLO PEDRO: Colonel Smith came into the room where they unclothed me and where I was handcuffed to the window and he's the one that asked them to remove the cuffs and to put on my clothes again, that's where I can recall him, yes - Colonel Smith.

MR DONAN: Now there has been evidence about a sack that was used by Mr Benzien when he interrogated detainees, did you ever see or hear of a sack while you were under interrogation?

NICLO PEDRO: Yes, I did hear about it.  He threatened to use what I can the bag, to use it on me.  There was the one occasion at Culemborg and the other occasion was when we were in Loop Street when Mostert was also present.  It was also when they wanted certain information from me, it was already quite late in the interrogation process and they didn't use the bag on me but they placed the bag on my head and I think it was Mostert who said that they should take the bag off.

MR DONAN: How easily did you give information to Mr Benzien, did you offer it readily?

NICLO PEDRO: No, I did not.  In fact, in my own mind I think I gave him the information because of the violence that he used on me and the fear that he installed in me.  I think that's why I gave him information, yes.

MR DONAN: You were sentenced to imprisonment, were you?

NICLO PEDRO: Yes, I was.

MR DONAN: On Robben Eiland?

NICLO PEDRO: That's correct.

MR DONAN: And since the time of your trial, have you ever seen the statements which you made to the lawyers at the time of your trial?

NICLO PEDRO: Since after my trial?

MR DONAN: Yes.

NICLO PEDRO: No, I haven't.  In fact, even when I came here and I just spoke, that's probably why I maybe might not remember all the things.  During the lunch time now I requested whether I can see some of my statements again, yes.

MR DONAN: And I gave you your statement?

NICLO PEDRO: Yes, you gave me the one.

MR DONAN: And you've since refreshed your memory?

NICLO PEDRO: I did.

MR DONAN: Thank you, thank you Mr Pedro.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DONAN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Papier, are there any questions you wish to illicit?

MR PAPIER: I have no questions, thank you Honourable Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Cook?

MR COOK: I have a couple of questions thank you.
	Mr Pedro, it seems to as if you also have a problem with your memory, is that right?