Amnesty Hearings — Sebokeng — 1998-07-14

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct, sir.

MR SIBANYONI: Are there any of them who have been attending this hearing perhaps?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I did not see them because it's been a long time since I was incarcerated.

MR SIBANYONI: In your affidavit you said during the meeting it was said this problem of your people being killed at Boipatong should be reported to Buthelezi.  Was it in fact reported?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, sir.

MR SIBANYONI: I suppose that an event like this one which happened on the 17th June 1992, to attack is like starting a war and as such it has to be with the approval or the blessing of some people higher in the IFP structures.  What is your comment about that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: There is nothing I can say about that.

MR SIBANYONI: Is it perhaps because of fear that you can't say anything about that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: No, I am not afraid, I just have no comment.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the point has been made here is that if the attack on Boipatong was at the instance of IFP members who were being attacked by the Boipatong residents who were perceived to be ANC, the decision to attack in all probability would have come from the top structures of the IFP.  No one is suggesting that you knew that but we're putting it at no higher than just a probability, do you understand what I'm saying?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes I do understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it be fair then to make that assumption?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As far as I'm concerned, I don't think that's the right way to go.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Advocate Sigodi?
ADV. SIGODI: Mr Mthembu, I just want to clarify one aspect here.  I just want to get a picture of what was happening at Kwamadala Hostel.  Roughly how many people were staying in Kwamadala Hostel?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: There may have been people in excess of 1000, above.
ADV. SIGODI: And did those include women as well?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, that is correct, madam.
ADV. SIGODI: And were they all IFP members?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.
ADV. SIGODI: What concerns me is the motive for the attack on the Boipatong residents.  For me it could be one of two things.  It could either have been an IFP order or instruction to go and attack ANC people in Boipatong or it could have been the hostel dwellers for their own reasons, one of the reasons being that they were prevented from buying at the shops,  attacking the Boipatong residents who happened to be in the predominantly ANC area.  So what I want to find out from you, was this an IFP attack on ANC or was it just hostel dwellers attacking Boipatong residents irrespective of whether the Boipatong residents had IFP members or not.  Do you understand what I'm trying to ask you?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes, I understand.
ADV. SIGODI: So which one was it, was it IFP versus ANC or was the hostel dwellers versus the Boipatong residents?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: As far as I see it there were IFP members residing at the Kwamadala Hostel and there was also this ANC organisation who barred people from the hostel to buy at the shops - they were killed and necklaced.
ADV. SIGODI: Now what worries me is the fact that when the IFP people of the Kwamadala Hostel went to attack the Boipatong residents, if they wanted to attack the ANC people as you said and like you said that the people that you were targeting were the self defence unit people specifically and you went into the houses because the STU's ran away when they saw you and they went into the houses and that's when you started attacking people inside the houses.  What I want to find out, if you want to attack the ANC, what measure did you take to protect the people who were IFP in Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would not explain about IFP members residing in Boipatong, that was not to my knowledge.
ADV. SIGODI: Because you testified that you had to wear a red band as the hostel dwellers in order to prevent you attacking each other but you did not make any provision for people who could possibly be IFP who were staying in the townships in Boipatong?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct.
ADV. SIGODI: Because it was concerns me is what political objective did you intend to achieve if you went and killed some IFP people because it was put to you that some of the victims were IFP supporters?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I can explain here that I had no knowledge that there were IFP members residing at Boipatong, especially because we are the ones who were being killed at Boipatong.  How could we be killed by people who were members of the IFP?
ADV. SIGODI: But it's a known fact that Boipatong was predominantly ANC, or you perceived it to be as such, but what concerns me is the indiscriminate killing in so far as the political objectives that you may have sought to achieve?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I am not in a position to comment about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson, if I could just pull this across here so that we don't have any problems with the sound system.
	Mr Mthembu, I just want to follow up on this issue of IFP members in Boipatong that my colleague has raised with you.  You say you didn't know there were IFP members in Boipatong, is that right?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct, sir.

MR LAX: Well, can I refer you to paragraph 532 of your affidavit at page 24.  You'll see from that paragraph that the Youth Brigade went into Boipatong to discuss with youth associations and young people how to become members of the IFP.  In other words, to recruit members in that area?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct, sir.

MR LAX: And you were Vice-Chairperson of the Youth Brigade?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: That is correct.  On that day I was also present when they went to Boipatong.

MR LAX: This paragraph doesn't just say you went there once, it implies that you went there on a regular basis to meet with people, to persuade them to become IFP members, correct?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: Yes that is correct but we had a problem.  On that day the police chased us out of the township, they did not want to see us there and we therefore was no longer able to continue with our mission.

MR LAX: But the fact of the matter is that there probably sufficient people in Boipatong sympathetic to the IFP to make it worth your while to go there to try and recruit people?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I would not know sir, because on that very same day before we were chased away by the police we did not find any recruits because these people had already indicated through their actions that they were not co-operating.

MR LAX: Well then why did you sign this section of this affidavit which is worded in terms that imply that you went there on many occasions and that you spoke to people and that you tried to encourage them to join the IFP?  Why didn't you correct that and point out to lawyer that this a mistake, you only went there once?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I did not see it as a mistake because it is something that I was talking about as something that happened.

MR LAX: Well you see, you say you never spoke to anybody that day because you were chased away before you could get there?  Just answer the first part, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: What is your answer to that?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: I am saying we did not talk to the people, we were chased away by the police at Boipatong.

MR LAX: Well it's written here "The Youth Brigade was encouraging other youths to join the IFP.  They would enter Boipatong to discuss with youth associations and young people how to become members of the IFP.  If you were chased away, how could you discuss with anybody?

VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU: This is something that explains what our mission was, what we went there to do.