Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 2000-07-25

STEPHANIE MILLER: In my discussion with the Forensic Pathologist, I requested information as to what I could anticipate in the level of decomposition of a body that was found in the veld and my understanding was that if a body had been found within a day or two of death, it would be fairly fresh in terms of a post-mortem, easily handled in terms of medical terms and a post-mortem would be efficiently and effectively done.
	After a week or so, the body would decompose quite rapidly, depending on the weather conditions at the time, and over a period of a month or two, it would be anticipated that the body might be decomposed sufficiently for a level of decomposition to be reached where no fingerprints would be taken, where no photograph could be taken, where it would be unpleasant to handle.

MR VISSER: Yes.

STEPHANIE MILLER: Even in medical terms.

MR VISSER: Who was the Pathologist that told you this?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Dr Naidoo?

MR VISSER: Dr Naidoo?  We will ask him questions about that and we will leave that aside.  The clothes have arrived, thanks to the Registrar of the Judge, of the Chairperson.  If we could possibly just have the belt, if you don't mind.
	I would like you to give it to Ms Miller please.  Ms Miller, would you mind terribly standing up and fitting that belt around your waist please?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Around my waist?

MR VISSER: Yes.

STEPHANIE MILLER: I suspect Mr Wagener might be slimmer than I.

MR VISSER: It fits from end to end around your waist.

CHAIRPERSON: With quite a big space between the body and the end of the belt?

MR VISSER: Now you have found the buckle marks, have you?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Yes, I found the buckle mark, but I don't know how big the buckle was.

MR VISSER: Okay, fair enough.  Can you just measure that, is that ...

STEPHANIE MILLER: It is a little loose for me.

MR VISSER: It is still loose for you?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could we see the ...

MR VISSER: The belt?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I would like to take a look at it.

MR VISSER: That hasn't been given a separate number, it is part of Exhibit 1 Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.   It is a plastic belt which one would expect would not shrink in any way with water or time.

MR LAX: It had a metal buckle on it.

CHAIRPERSON: It had a metal buckle that was

MR LAX: Quite big?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you can see there are two rust marks near the holes, which are about two to three inches, indicate the buckle was probably two to three inches big.  The belt is a little bit brittle at this stage and not too pliable.  It's got a few kinks and knobs which means it could perhaps be straightened out by about another centimetre or two, if it was flat?

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.  Ms Miller, did you have a close look at, I have just forgotten the exhibit number, the bra?  I thought it was Exhibit 4, did you inspect the bra at all?

STEPHANIE MILLER: No,  no, I didn't inspect the bra, and I hope you are not going to ask me to try it on.

MR VISSER: I won't do that.  I won't do that.

CHAIRPERSON: It has just been pointed out to me that I might be wrong in saying that that belt might not have shrunk, that was just my own personal view, and I am certainly not an expert on materials, but I will just put that on record.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.   You don't know whether the intended measuring up of the clothes had taken place yet, or not?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Of the clothing?

MR VISSER: Of the clothing, yes?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I could find out, I don't know.

MR VISSER: Including the bra, because that is what we were told last week, was going to happen.  Alright,  in your evidence here, apart from those factors which we have just run through, you added that the dress which was exhumed with the remains, belonged to Kubheka, is that correct?

STEPHANIE MILLER: The dress belonged to Ms Kubheka?

MR VISSER: Yes?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I understand subsequently it has been identified as that belonging to Ms Kubheka.

MR VISSER: This identification, were you present when Ms Dludla identified this dress?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I was not present.

MR VISSER: Well when anyone else identified the dress?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I was not present.

MR VISSER: Fine, thank you.   You see, if you are correct that PM580 was the same body as PM1155, don't you have a problem with the fact that PM1155 is a considerably short person, while PM580 was approximately 1,6 m tall, which is an average height?

STEPHANIE MILLER: I am not sure that that is correct, can I refer to PM580?

MR VISSER: Sure.  You will find it in Bundle 2, Chairperson,  page 67 onwards.  You can look at page 68 if you wish.

MR LAX: You will note Mr Visser, that the height is identical, 1,6 m.

MR VISSER: I beg your pardon?

MR LAX: On 580, the height is identical.  It is on the top corner, under item 1 on the top of page 68?

MR VISSER: Identical to what, Chairperson?

MR LAX: I thought you said this person was 1,6 m?

MR VISSER: According to Dr Chetty.

MR LAX: Yes?

MR VISSER: And assuming it is the same skeleton, we find Dr Naidoo measuring ...

MR LAX: I misunderstood you, I thought you were saying it the other way around.

MR VISSER: No, no.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR VISSER: If I did, I did so unwittingly.

MR LAX: It is just my confusion, don't worry about that.

MR VISSER: To make it absolutely clear, Dr Chetty finds that the skeleton which he examined was 1,6 m, Dr Naidoo finds that it was 1,35 to 1,44, isn't that a problem?

STEPHANIE MILLER: It is not a problem in the light of how ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you answer that, I just want the reference for the second one, Vol 2?

MR VISSER: Page 68.  Page 28 Chairperson, you have Dr Naidoo.  I will put all this to him obviously, but in fairness, I want to put it to this witness as well.
	At page 28 in the middle of the page, well almost the middle ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, 1,35 to ...

MR VISSER: 1,42 m in height, which prompted him to consider her as a considerably short individual.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Sorry.

MR VISSER: I am putting it to you that if you are, if you intend to say that they are the same skeleton, you have a serious problem.

STEPHANIE MILLER: No, I don't have a serious problem in the light of the fact that a post-mortem was probably not in fact done ...

MR VISSER: Well, how do you know that, Ms Miller?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Well, I did submit a statement from Mr Ismail who was the Mortuary Assistant at the time, who explained how viewing of the body took, could have taken place, not specifically did take place.

MR VISSER: Well, let's assume for the moment that people act normally and correctly, rather than abnormally and incorrectly, that would assume that Dr Chetty did the job for which he was appointed, and he did the post-mortem examination.  Let's assume that for a moment.  He measured this skeleton?

STEPHANIE MILLER: The assumption is that he measured the skeleton, yes.

MR VISSER: Well, he is not here to defend himself.

STEPHANIE MILLER: That is true.

MR VISSER: And on his report, he finds that this skeleton was 1,6 m, not plus-minus, 1,6 m?

STEPHANIE MILLER: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Isn't that a problem?

STEPHANIE MILLER: Not really when you consider he put the weight at 40 kg.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if it is 40 or 60.

MR VISSER: 60 kg.

CHAIRPERSON: Because it has been typed, if one looks at the next page, as 60, but if one looks at it, it is not a great "6".

MR VISSER: Yes, if you look at page 73 Chairperson, the typewritten ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but that is just the typist's interpretation of what that figure is.

MR VISSER: Yes.  And in fact Chairperson, the typed one is the one signed by Dr Chetty.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so it is 60.