Amnesty Hearings — Kimberley — 2000-02-04

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, there were orders, tat deployment is also included in the execution of the orders which means that they were given orders.  In the army you cannot take troops and then go, we say we go to Mdantzane without briefing them or giving them orders, that we're going to Mdantzane and go to search such a house at this time and then after that we come back.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Are there any levels of orders in the form of telling people when to fire?  Are there any levels that if I say fire, it means that you only use rifles, if I say fire twice, you use side arms, if I say fire strongly, you use rocket launchers and other heavy armoury?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I can say, yesterday Sir I indicated that when I was talking about a minimal force, which stages we go through them until we say now fire with full fire.

MR NOMPOZOLO: No, all I'm asking is, if you say fire and nothing else, wouldn't every soldier use the weapon he is carrying?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, your order must be specific, that I'm talking to this Rifleman or to this Lieutenant that:  "Fire."

MR NOMPOZOLO: Who are the Riflemen that you referred to on the day in question?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I referred to Mr Gonya.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now according to Mr Gonya, you said fire for the first time and the soldiers did not carry out your instructions and you said fire for the second time, they still were hesitant and you said fire for the third time, they started firing at the marchers who were approaching.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, no, no, no.  I never said that.  I said fire only at once to Maj Mbina, to say:  "Maj Mbina, enforce fire", only to Maj Mbina, there was no resistance in the vehicle because nobody had shot them because that's a command vehicle, the command vehicle doesn't shoot at the people, it only shoots when the battlefield or when there's an intensive battle, you don't fire in the command vehicle, no one is permitted to fire.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And according to Mr Gonya, you were outside the vehicle when you gave the instruction to fire and you were not using a loud hailer but you were just shouting that:  "Fire", you said that three times.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, Sir.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, how do you reconcile the fact that you never made any report to the army that Mr Gonya did not follow your instructions and fired with a heavy armoury to the people without you giving that order, yet he was not charged according to the army?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, Sir, I did report to my higher authority about the incident that who have fired.  The people at the parliament, the people at the Fort Hare branch and the people from the Telkom and even Gonya fired with a rifle grenade, that's why the General said there must be Board of Inquiry, must be convened, the Board of Inquiry.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Is it correct that each and every soldier who fired there, fired after you gave the instruction?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: They fired while I was, after I gave the instructions and say:  "Major Mbina, fire", they fired.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now there was also a helicopter there.  Did they also get the instruction from you?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: To what?

MR NOMPOZOLO: To fire.  To fire at the people there?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, there's no helicopter that fired there, I'm not aware of that fact.  The only helicopters were there, were the military helicopters of Ciskei Defence Force and the helicopter of the South African Police Force.  I have no idea if they fired or what.

MR NOMPOZOLO: I may be mistaken Sir, but I saw it on TV,  helicopter firing shots at the people.  Now all I'm asking ...(intervention)

MR DU PLESSIS: Objection, Mr Chairman.  With all due respect, my Learned Colleague indicates to the - under cross-examination that he himself saw it on the TV that there were shots fired from a helicopter.  Am I then to understand that my Learned Colleague is to testify in this matter, this application?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well, I think the idea is for the applicant to respond to that.  I think the applicant has already said he is not aware of any firing from the helicopter.

MR DU PLESSIS: As the Commission pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: So I think he has responded to that already.

MR DU PLESSIS: As the Commission pleases.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, as you have indicated that you are not aware that people fired from the helicopter, am I correct to say you can't dispute that?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes Sir, I am saying that I am not aware whenever helicopters fired, but the rumours which I got from the media, the rumours that are coming from the community in the village, they are saying the helicopters also fired, but I was not aware that helicopters had fired, it's just a hearsay for me.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now, let's go along and say that what has been said in the media is correct, that the helicopter fired.  If that is the case, could it have been flowing from the order you gave that they must fire?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No, if that is so, it cannot be the following of my order because I was using a ...(indistinct) radio, which only communicated for myself and Col van der Bank at airborne, so the radio which Maj Mbina said he had given,  the order to Ndandiso, was not linked, when fired was opened, was not linked to the airborne radio.  They have got separate channels.

MR NOMPOZOLO: I understood you to be saying that you were communicating with the helicopter.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, Sir.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Did you communicate to the helicopter that the helicopter can fire or that you have given an order to fire because you were being attacked?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: No firstly, the helicopter I believe, it hasn't got any guns there.  I think the Brigadier only has a pistol.

MR KOOPEDI: Now listen, all I'm asking, did you communicate to the helicopter that you've given an instruction for the troops to fire?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: That's positive.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes.  Now you obviously were not in the helicopter and you were not aware of the armoury they had in the helicopter.

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I'm aware of the armoury which was in the helicopter.

MR NOMPOZOLO: I see.  Do you know what was used on the helicopter or - sorry Mr Chairman, he has already said he is not aware.  Now,

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Nompozolo, are you moving on to something else?  I want to ask him a question about this, talking about helicopters?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, I was going to move to something else.  Yes, you can ask.

ADV SANDI: Okay.  By the way Mr Mkosana, how many helicopters are we talking about here?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: There were two helicopters there, a Ciskei Defence Force helicopter and a South African Police helicopter.

MR NOMPOZOLO: I take it that, well let me put it this way - what was the reason for the use of helicopters on that day?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: I cannot tell the reason of the South African police to employ a helicopter on the air but the reason of our helicopter was to make a surveillance as to tell us in detail the estimation of the crowd, what is happening in Zwelitsha, what is happening in Mdantzane, all that information.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but more specifically to have a clear visibility of the crowd to see who is doing what from the crowd, not so?

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: Yes, as I understand, it was to monitor the situation.

ADV SANDI: But, why did you not ask these people from the crowd if they had seen anyone shooting at your troops before you gave the order?  Why didn't you ask them?  Why didn't you say:  "Gentlemen, I've got a problem here.  I've just heard two shots here.  Are you able to see from where you are what is happening?"

VAKELE ARCHIBALD MKOSANA: At that stage, Sir, the Brigadier was not on that specific point of the crowd which was embarking to us in Jogelanga ...(indistinct), it was not in that position at that time.