Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-08

MR DEHAL: And lastly, the McBride family, especially Robert McBride and you, have reconciled, you have been forgiven and you are all friends again?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: Yes, that's true.

MR DEHAL: Thank you, very much.  Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DEHAL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dehal.  Mr Richard, do you have any questions you'd like to put?

MR RICHARD: Yes, Chairperson, a few.
	At paragraph 1 or section 1, in the second paragraph, you say you attended discussions at the Allan Taylor residence.  My question is, at the age of 16, how did you come to attend those meetings?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: Well I was an active member of the Congress of South African Students, I was also an active supporter of the Unit Committee of Concern and the United Democratic Front and as a result we often held meetings at the Allan Taylor residence.

MR RICHARD: During the period late '85, early '86, were you at meetings there then?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: Yes, that's correct.

MR RICHARD: Now what was discussed at those meetings?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: Well I was involved in a number of organisations at that time and we attended meetings there frequently, almost on a daily basis, so I can't really ...

MR RICHARD: Do you recall discussions concerning targets, potential targets?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: No, we did not discuss anything of that sort.

MR RICHARD: Did you ever discuss places where there might be concentrations of Security personnel?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: No, we did not.

MR RICHARD: Now you say you joined a unit under the command of Mr McBride, did he give you any training?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: Mr McBride did not give me any training.

MR RICHARD: Now when it comes to training, what training did you receive with regard to weapons?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: I only received theoretical training from my comrade, Vincent James.

MR RICHARD: And what did he ...

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: In the use of handgrenades.

MR RICHARD: Any other weapons?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: No.

MR RICHARD: Did you ever discuss with him or get taught by him as to what sort of targets you might throw handgrenades at?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: We discussed it, yes.

MR RICHARD: What was the discussion?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: Well we discussed that we should attack Labour Party members or police reservists, or any other possible target of which we just discussed.

MR RICHARD: Within the context of those discussions, would a person who had been a police reservist but no longer be active, be considered as a legitimate target?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: I don't know if I understand you correctly.  A person who was no longer active in the police reservists?

MR RICHARD: Someone who had been for a while a police reservist but had stopped being active, would such a person be still considered a legitimate target?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: I would have considered that person a legitimate target.

MR RICHARD: Now if someone's involvement with the Labour Party at the time had insisted on putting up posters during 1983 and been associated with Labour Party members, what would you consider that person to be?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: I would have also considered that person to be a collaborator.

MR RICHARD: And the family of such a person, would they also be considered collaborators?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: Had they supported the Labour Party and their policies, yes, I should think that they should also be collaborators.

MR RICHARD: And if all they had to connect them with the Labour Party was the fact that they were married to somebody who was perceived to be a supporter of the Labour Party, would that be enough to make you consider them to be a collaborator?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: Is that now being based purely on the fact that the person was married to a member, or  ...(intervention

MR RICHARD: That's the only factor that you've got.

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: I'm not sure.

MR RICHARD: Now when you threw the handgrenade at the Leaf house, did you know who was inside the house?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: No, I did not.

MR RICHARD: Did you know the Klein family?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: Yes, I knew the Klein family, I was a personal friend of the son of Mr Klein, we grew up together.

MR RICHARD: You grew up with Mr Klein's son, is the import of your answer?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Yes.  Now does that mean you were often at their house?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: Yes, I visited their house.

MR RICHARD: Now during which period was it that you visited the Klein house as a friend of their son's?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: From childhood as I should say.

MR RICHARD: Until when?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: I should think that at the time I became politicised and realised, Mr Klein being a member of the Labour Party and a police reservist and his role in the community, I stopped.

MR RICHARD: When was that?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: At about late '83, beginning '84, when I became politicised and joined the Congress of South African Students.

MR RICHARD: Would you have been aware that inasmuch as Mr Klein was a police reservist, he stopped participating in whatever activity sometime around 1984?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: I was not aware of that.

MR RICHARD: Now prior to 1984, what sort of reservist duties did he undertake?  Do you know?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: I'm not sure.

MR RICHARD: Now what did Mr Klein do, to your knowledge, to support the Labour Party?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: All I know is that Mr Klein was an active member of the Labour Party.

MR RICHARD: Would the act of putting up posters to assist the Labour Party in their campaign in 1983 be considered in your mind, to make him an active participant, member?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: I didn't see Mr Klein putting up posters or anything like that, but I knew that he was a member, an active member.

MR RICHARD: Do you know what he did in and about the Labour Party's activities?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: No, I do not know.

MR RICHARD: Now when you were trained, were you given any criteria as to how to select a target?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: Well we just discussed it, myself and Vincent and Kevin.  As I said earlier on we discussed amongst ourselves.

MR RICHARD: Was the topic of what civilian or other injuries that you could cause by going on an attack, discussed?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: Yes, we did discuss that.

MR RICHARD: And what was the content of the discussion?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: Well we discussed as to whether we would want to severely injure someone who could have been at the target and we decided no, we did not want to do that because had we wanted to do that we most probably would have went up to the house and threw a grenade right into, through a window or something like that.

MR RICHARD: So am I correct in deciding that when you threw the grenade you deliberately didn't throw it through a window so as not to cause personal injuries?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: That's correct.

MR RICHARD: And that was in line with and consistent with what you had discussed with Mr James?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: That's correct, Sir.

MR RICHARD: Now when it comes to Mr McBride, was he ever party to those discussions?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: No, he was not.

MR RICHARD: Now before you went on that attack, did you discuss the plan of the attack with anyone else besides Mr James?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: No, it was only discussed amongst ourselves.

MR RICHARD: And "ourselves" means?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: Myself, Mr James and Mr Curtis.

MR RICHARD: Are you aware whether they discussed it with anyone else?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: No, they would not have discussed it with anyone.

MR RICHARD: Who obtained the handgrenades?

MARCEL TREVOR ANDREWS: Mr James obtained the handgrenades.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Richard.  Mr Prior?

ADV PRIOR: I have no questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV PRIOR