Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-03

MR TIPP: You couldn't say.  Just for - I'll leave it at that Mr Chairman.  Again in the spirit that this is not a trial, I'm not going to begin to put versions in respect of matters.  Thank you for the opportunity.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TIPP

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr van Reenen I would want your indulgence because I want to form a picture in my mind as to how the group was armed, and you of all the witnesses we've heard were very much close to this group.  Would you just take a second of your time to describe to us the kinds of weapons that you saw amongst the group of marchers, because you were very close to them?

MR VAN REENEN: All that I saw was knobkierries, assegais, shields, sticks, that's all that I noticed among the group as such which was before me.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you able to say whether there were any firearms amongst the group?

MR VAN REENEN: I saw no firearms.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And when you say the group was toyi-toying, are you referring to a chant when you say they were toyi-toying as you approached them?

MR VAN REENEN: They didn't storm, they moved forward slowly as they usually would.  They'd moved forward and backward, forward and backward, that is how the movement took place.  They didn't storm at all, not at that stage.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Were you able to identify any person who would have appeared to you to have been leading the marchers?

MR VAN REENEN: No I didn't see anybody at that stage.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Are you able to say whether the group was marching in a very organized manner?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct, they appeared as such.  When they moved down King George Street from north to south, they appeared like that, they appeared to be very ordered.

SISI KHAMPEPE: And would you say the order disappeared immediately after you were bumped out by them?

MR VAN REENEN: Well then I couldn't see what they were doing any longer at stage because I had given way and they had moved ahead.  I couldn't tell you whether or not they were still toyi-toying or whether they stormed, I simply got out of the way in front of them.  After they had crossed the intersection it is very difficult for me to say exactly how they had proceeded, because I had been pushed out of the way and I was already in De Villiers Street at that stage.

SISI KHAMPEPE: You were so induced by fear after that incident that you were unable to observe what the marchers did after you were bumped out?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MR LAX: You were asked earlier by Mr Tip whether you could see if the marchers were running away from being shot at while the shooting was happening, and you said you didn't see that.

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR LAX: Did you see whether they were running forward while the shooting was on the go?

MR VAN REENEN: No I couldn't see anything.

MR LAX: You couldn't see anything at all?

MR VAN REENEN: No, when I moved into De Villiers Street I couldn't see whether or not they were storming or whether they were still moving forward as they had.  They had already crossed the intersection, they had gone into King George Street and over De Villiers Street.  I can't tell you whether or not they ran forward or ran backwards or whether they were toyi-toyi'ing.

MR LAX: You see because my understanding is that there was a big group of people and they pushed past you.  Now I think you mentioned a figure of roundabout 500-odd people, more than that, is that right?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR LAX: For a group of that size to carry on moving into King George would have quite some time, for them to move into King George and for the end of that group to be finished, you with me?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct, I agree.

MR LAX: You retreat into De Villiers Street, but you can still see the group moving down King George Street surely, at that point?  In other words even the middle or the back of that group must have still been visible to you going into King George Street?

MR VAN REENEN: After the intersection I didn't look at them again, I moved to the side into De Villiers Street, I can't tell you.

MR LAX: So you didn't turn around and observe the group at all after that?

MR VAN REENEN: No I didn't.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You did say that your friend or your companion Greunen had been injured and you think, you said, he'd been injured with a spear?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't see the actual injury being inflicted, did you?

MR VAN REENEN: No I didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: And at that time you were armed I take it?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And Greunen was armed as well?

MR VAN REENEN: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the possibility exists that he was stabbed at a time when he had a gun in his hand?

MR VAN REENEN: It's possible.

MR LAX: Sorry just one last thing, did it ever occur to you at any point to fire your own firearm as a warning shot to try and cause this group to disperse?

MR VAN REENEN: I didn't think of it at that stage.

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chair, I would likewise also like to point out just two extracts from the record and just ask the witness for his response.
	Inspector, firstly I want to refer to the position of deceased and injured after the shooting incident.  On page 205 of the record I will read the following extraction of your evidence, line 10, could you just find it, 205, line 10.  Do you have it before you?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes.

MR DORFLING: It reads
"Well I's sought shelter on the eastern side in de Villiers Street itself.  If you take de Villiers Street, that would have been in de Villiers Street on the southern tip because that's where I stood.  The shooting had finished.  I noticed that there were plus minus 20 people who were standing on the corner of King George, they were lying on the corner of King George Street, to the west"
With reference to that evidence could assist the Committee regarding exactly where the people would be lying, how far into King George Street, was it on the intersection, where?

MR VAN REENEN: It was in King George Street itself.  King George Street from north to south and it was in King George Street already past De Villiers Street, approximately 10 to 15 paces into King George Street already.  The people lay on the western side in King George Street itself.

MR DORFLING: Is it correct to say that on the other side of Shell House, on the pavement?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: One of the Honourable Committee members asked you what firearms or whether you had seen any firearms amongst the crowd, you answered in the negative to that.  I'd like to refer you to page 2056 of the record when it was asked to you whether or not you heard anybody fire shots from within the crowd.  Could you please turn to page 2056, line 12.  There advocate Matzke asked you about this specific aspect

MR DORFLING: "When you encountered the group on St George and de Villiers Street, did you hear any gunfire from the group of Zulus"

WITNESS:  "No, I didn't"

MR DORFLING: Do you stand with that evidence?

MR VAN REENEN: Yes that's correct, I do.

MR DORFLING: Is it correct to say that until the moment that you were bumped out of the way you heard no gunfire, and you were right next to the march?  Up until that moment you heard no gunfire coming from the marchers?

MR VAN REENEN: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: Finally, you were asked about the injury of Sergeant van Greunen, who would have reported to you that he had been injured with some sort of short object, what was the nature of the injury?

MR VAN REENEN: I don't know on which side of his shoulder it was, it was on the back of his shoulder, there was a cut.

MR DORFLING: Did he receive any stitches or medical treatment for that injury?

MR VAN REENEN: As far as I know it wasn't very serious.