Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MR RICHARD: You've answered a question that during October 1987 you didn't receive any reports of that nature, that he was arrested with a pistol and a handgrenade.   You said no, you didn't, if I understood you correctly.  Was there any other such report at any time?

MR TSHABALALA: I think it was at the beginning of the year that we got such a report, in fact I think it was after he had been killed.

MR RICHARD: From where did you get that report?

MR TSHABALALA: From comrade Pat.

MR RICHARD: But you received that report after he had been killed.

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, that's what I'm saying.

MR RICHARD: So that means you can tell us nothing at all about Mr Dube's allegations that the deceased was arrested in October at Khotso House, with a gun and a grenade?

MR TSHABALALA: I think we are making a mistake somewhere here.  Sicelo was arrested in October together with other Sosco leaders at the time.  Sicelo was also arrested at the beginning of the year.  This was in the media.  It was also reported that he had been released a few hours later.  What I am saying is that I only heard that in that January 1988 arrest he had been arrested in possession of a pistol and a handgrenade.  I only learnt of it after his death.

MR RICHARD: I'm dealing with October 1987, I'm not dealing with January '88.  I will come to the 20th of January 1988.
	From what you say, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the arrest in October '87 was with a number of other Sosco members ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He has said that, he has told us all about it.  Why do you have to repeat, repeat, repeat?

MR RICHARD: Because on the 20th of January 1987, '88, it is correct that the deceased was arrested at Khotso House in the presence of other DPSC members, who will say there were no firearms at all.

MR TSHABALALA: There's nothing wrong with them explaining that.

MR RICHARD: And the only intimation you have that on that arrest that firearms were involved, comes from the first applicant, Mr Dube.

MR TSHABALALA: That is what I'm saying.

MR RICHARD: And in fact you have no idea of how Mr Dube got that information.

MR TSHABALALA: No, I do not know.  You are referring to the information that he was arrested in possession of these firearms?

MR RICHARD: Correct.  And that when Mr Dube talks of an arrest in October '87, with firearms, he's mistaken, he's muddled the two arrests.  Is that not what appears to be the case?

MR TSHABALALA: It is possible.

MR RICHARD: Now prior to October 1987, did Mr Dube or anyone else express or raise any concerns with you regarding the deceased's behaviour?

MR TSHABALALA: Prior to October 1987?

MR RICHARD: Correct.

MR TSHABALALA: No, I do not remember.

MR RICHARD: Was there any reason why anyone might have had any concerns about the deceased's behaviour before October 1987?

MR TSHABALALA: I do not know.

MR RICHARD: Now we know that after the 12 October 1987 arrest, the deceased made the decision to leave Soweto and live away, and it seems to be at that stage he was reported missing by the cell.  Were you aware that he was missing?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: I'm sorry, I was distracted, what was your answer?

INTERPRETER: He said yes, he was aware of that.

MR RICHARD: You were aware of it, thank you.  Now were you aware of it after the deceased reported to you about the 12 October detention?

MR TSHABALALA: What are you referring to?

MR RICHARD: The deceased reported to you some days after the 12 of October 1987 what had happened, then you say you are aware that he apparently went missing.  When did you become aware of him being missing after he reported to you?

MR TSHABALALA: I do not remember just how long thereafter it was, but it was a while.

MR RICHARD: Now the evidence is that you received instructions to locate the deceased, is that correct?

MR TSHABALALA: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: What efforts did you make to locate him after October 1987?

MR TSHABALALA: I went to his home.  I also went to Zola, as well as Orlando West.

MR RICHARD: And if Mr Dhlomo says you never went to the Dhlomo household during that period, what would you say?

MR TSHABALALA: I would not dispute it because it is not easy to remember everything as it happened, but I do remember that when Sicelo disappeared I did go to his home.  I may not remember the specific dates when I did this, but I did go and I did not find him.

MR RICHARD: Do you remember who you spoke to, if you spoke to anyone?

MR TSHABALALA: I do not remember.

MR RICHARD: Did you speak to anyone?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now what other efforts did you make?

MR TSHABALALA: Do you mean ...

MR RICHARD: You went to the Dhlomo household, you went to some other places in Soweto, what other efforts did you make?

MR TSHABALALA: I mentioned three places, the Dhlomo household and I went to Zola, two houses in Zola and I also went to Orlando West, I actually visited one house at Orlando West.

MR RICHARD: Did you go to the DPSC offices or phone the DPSC offices?

MR TSHABALALA: I just telephoned the office.

MR RICHARD: Because the DPSC offices will say you went there and you were seen with the deceased during that period.

MR TSHABALALA: I would not dispute that because I should think they keep records of who goes in and out of the offices, but it is not easy for me to remember, but I do think that I made that phone call, trying to locate Sicelo.

MR RICHARD: And you went there and you saw the deceased on a number of occasions during that critical period when he's said to have been missing.  You were seen with him, do you admit or deny it?

MR TSHABALALA: I will not dispute what, agree with it.  I think you are trying to remind me of something.

MR RICHARD: I'm doing more than trying to remind you, I'm putting a proposition which you have to either say yes or no to.

MR TSHABALALA: It is not easy to deny or agree with what you are saying.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, sorry for that.
	Mr Tshabalala, is there any reason why you would not have gone to the DPSC offices to look for Sicelo?

MR TSHABALALA: I don't know.  Do you mean was there a reason that could have prevented me from going to the offices to look for Sicelo?

ADV SANDI: Yes, if you were looking for him and you knew that he was working at the DPSC, is there any reason why you  wouldn't have gone there to look for him?

MR TSHABALALA: Do you mean was there a reason why I did not go there instead of phoning?  I felt it was better to phone.  That is what I remember doing.

ADV SANDI: I'm trying to understand your response to the questions that are being put to you by counsel for the family.  Would I be correct to understand you to say that you might have gone there, but you cannot remember?  You're not disputing those who say they saw you there and you were with the deceased?  I'm trying to understand your response.

MR TSHABALALA: What I'm saying is, what I remember doing in locating Sicelo is what I have just explained as well as phoning the DPSC.  If you say there are people from DPSC who will say they saw me with Sicelo at that time, I will not disagree or agree with it.  With regards to the question if there was a reason why I would not go to the office at that time, my response is I do not know.
	I must say that the situation that prevails now is different from the one that prevailed at the time.  It is difficult to remember everything that happened.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now your answer then, and I can only work it out this way, is that you don't remember or are choosing not to tell us, which is it?

MR TSHABALALA: ...(no English interpretation)

DR TSOTSI: Did the witness say that he choose not to tell us?

MR RICHARD: Why do you choose not to tell us?

MR KOOPEDI: That's not what the witness said.

INTERPRETER: That is not what the witness said.

MR RICHARD: I beg your pardon, what was the witness' answer?

INTERPRETER: He said he does not remember.