Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1998-05-25

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I ask for a short adjournment?   I just want to make inquiries, I haven't been informed that anyone from the village was in fact brought from Umtata, and I must confess, it escaped me to ask the policeman while I was precognising them.   May I just ask for a short adjournment to consult with Mr Magadlela?

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR PRIOR: For a minute or so, Mr Chairman.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR PRIOR: ...names were supplied to them as persons who had knowledge about the shooting, they were residents in the area, one was a young boy, and one was another resident, but unfortunately none of them arrived at the police station as per arrangements, so they never came through, but I also understand that they were unable to give any indication on the regularity of the route.   All they could say was that from time to time milk was sold in that area, and one can probably expect, after six or seven years, that they would have difficulty remembering with any clarity or any precision the exact route or the exact time schedule that - the selling times by Mr Meyers at that particular time, so as far as I'm concerned, the evidence leader's concerned, I have no further evidence to tender.   I understand Mr Bothma wishes to address the committee and then Mr Mbandazaya also needs to address the committee on further evidence that may be tendered by them.   Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR BOTHMA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.   We don't wish to present any further evidence, but I was just discussing the matter with Mr Prior now, that there is a court record available of a portion of the evidence, it also includes two witnesses who were on the scene of the first shooting, and as I understood it normally that this committee will have a transcription of the record available and I believe that attempts will be made by Mr Prior to get transcripts of the record available.   What happened is, the case was postponed on a certain occasion and thereafter a second file was opened in the registrar's office and that second file with the rest of the evidence cannot be found, but I'm just wondering whether this is not actually relevant to this committee to have copies available of this record.   I've got only one copy, but I can make it available to Mr Prior to make the necessary photocopies.

MS GCABASHE: The value being that we have some indication of what witnesses who were there might have said to the Court then?

MR BOTHMA: That is correct, ja, especially on the first occasion, at the first scene, where Mr Meyers arrived, two locals from that area were called and they testified what had happened on that first scene.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the first scene, you mean when the incidents took place, not when he came, not on the first occasion he came to sell milk there?

MR BOTHMA: No, I was referring to that occasion on that day when he went to sell milk there.

MR MBANDAZAYA: Mr Chairman, I don't have a problem, we can (indistinct) about it, but I haven't read it, that's the unfortunate part, I don't know what relevance, but ordinarily I wouldn't have any problem about it.

CHAIRPERSON: My feeling is that this may be of assistance to us all, I can't say, I have also not read it, but what I do suggest is that it be made available on the somewhat tentative basis that if counsel for the applicants is of the view that it is prejudicial to their interests and should not be considered by us, he can take the point in his argument.   Do you agree with that?

MR MBANDAZAYA: I agree, Mr Chairman.

MR BOTHMA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I certainly endorse the approach that the committee should be appraised of whatever material is available, to obtain as full a picture of the event as possible, and also with the approach that should anything to the detriment of the applicants arise, that it be raised.   However, yes, we will deal with that, if that eventuality arises, but certainly, being an official court transcription, or a portion of the transcription, it should be, or it could be and can be properly admitted as part of the evidence before this committee, and obviously it would be prejudicial on the basis if it was admitted now without proper discovery or notice to Mr Mbandazaya, so I will see to it that copies are made and properly delivered to Mr Mbandazaya and to the rest of the committee in due course.
	Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR MBANDAZAYA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.   Mr Chairman, I was talking to Mr Prior about this question of submission from the PAC.   I was talking to him and I heard that it seems as if we are going to always not come to decisions, we will not conclude all these cases waiting and waiting for them to come with this submission and we don't know when.

CHAIRPERSON: I think rather the opposite, I think that we have endeavoured to give the PAC every opportunity, they have not taken it, that we will now proceed without any further submissions by them.   When I say "without", we will give them perhaps another week, but I gather the matter will be brought to their attention almost immediately, and if they do not take advantage of the opportunity that's given them, we will have to decide without it.   It is grossly unfair to the their members and supporters that they should keep making promises and do nothing, and, as you say, delay, delay, delay, so my feeling is, and I think I speak for all the members of this committee, that we are prepared to say give them a week or until the end of next week to make what submissions they wish to make, but if that is not done, we will have to proceed without it.

MR MBANDAZAYA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I was still on that point, I was saying to Mr Prior then I will make my - forget about them myself, I will contact the relevant people like Lethapa Mphahlele, because as I indicated to the committee is that I was waiting for the submission before I can call him.   Now I want to make arrangements with him that he must come and see the committee so that we make arrangement to make this submission on our own, because definitely, also myself, I have a problem, I have been contacting PAC, I can't get hold of them until - luckily for him I'm able to get hold of him now, and he indicated that (indistinct) is in Johannesburg, otherwise he can make, even if the committee is in Cape Town, I can arrange and go with him in Cape Town, wherever it is, so that we can seek the clarity and thereafter we arrange for him to give the testimony at a convenient time.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that mean that he will not be able to be here this week or on Wednesday?

MR MBANDAZAYA: He would not be able to be here on this week.   He was here last week, I understand, and he couldn't get hold of me, and I was trying to get hold of him, and he wanted to come and discuss this thing, but I couldn't.   When I received the message to phone him, I couldn't get through to him and he was around here.   He left Friday night for Johannesburg, and now he told me, I was talking to him over lunch, he said, look, unfortunately he has already committed himself.   I have that problem, Mr Chairman.