Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-24

CHAIRPERSON: Table Mountain according to his affidavit.  Maqonqo had different areas and his area was called Table Mountain.  I'm a little confused because there is reference now to Mboyi and eNkanyesini and I'm a little lost as to which area.  That's why I want to know which area you are talking about.

MS THABETHE: Sure, Madam Chair.  Maybe before I ask that, can you clarify, Mr Zulu, when you talk about Table Mountain, exactly which area is this in Maqonqo?  Does it form part of Maqonqo?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Maqonqo is part of Table Mountain, it's within Table Mountain.

CHAIRPERSON: Where exactly were you staying?  What was the name of your area?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I was staying at Mboyi but that area is within Maqonqo.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, what area was being attacked by IFP people that you had to protect and launch retaliatory attacks?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: There were ANC and IFP members in Maqonqo.

CHAIRPERSON: Which area, which particular area, were you protecting which had been attacked on the 26th February by the IFP?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: It was an area called eZinembini and Dabe.

CHAIRPERSON: Called what?  Come again Ms translator.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: eZinembeni and Dabe.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you spell that for us?

INTERPRETER: E - Z - I - N - E - M - B - E - N - I   and  D - A - B - E

CHAIRPERSON: Now the IFP attacked two areas within Maqonqo on the 26th.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: They attacked Dabe on the 26th.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and those were the kraals that you've referred to as being those belonging to ANC members in your area?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you staying at Dabe?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I was at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you referred to "my area" as you have sought to during your viva voce and also your testimony that we have by way of an affidavit, are you referring to Dabe?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: As I explained before, there were different districts within one area.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but which district are you referring to or which area are you referring to, in relation to the attacks that were launched against your members?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I was residing at Dabe on the 26th.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed, Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.  Mr Zulu, you say in February 1993 you were residing at Dabe, is that your evidence?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

MS THABETHE: When did you move to Dabe, to stay at eNkanyezini?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I left Dabe because our houses had been burned down.  We then crossed over to eNkanyezini.

MS THABETHE: When?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: After the 26th we lived at eNkanyezini.

MS THABETHE: Is Dabe part of Maqonqo?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

MS THABETHE: You see what I'm trying to understand, Mr Zulu, is that I asked you earlier on that isn't it correct that the whole of Maqonqo was an IFP area and you said "yes, that's correct" and I asked you that isn't it correct that there was no ANC area at Maqonqo and you agreed with me that that was so.  You even explained further that the ANC people had moved to Edendale.  Now I don't understand what you are talking about in your affidavit when you say the IFP members attacked you at Maqonqo in an ANC area when there were ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: No, sorry, he didn't say in an ANC area, he said ANC members in the area.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Honourable Member of the Committee.  I will just rephrase my question then before I advance my predicament.  How were you identified as ANC members at Maqonqo?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: We resided together separate from the IFP people, who also resided together.

MS THABETHE: So are you saying as ANC people you were residing together in an area and that's how you were identified?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: There was a misunderstanding which caused that split that ANC people went their own way and IFP people also went a different way.

CHAIRPERSON: Your evidence, Mr Zulu, is that the ANC members had in any case fled Maqonqo to Edendale as early as 1988.

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, they did flee but returned.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you did not give us that evidence and that is the difficulty that Ms Thabethe has been presented with because you did not state that some returned at Maqonqo and if they did, when did they return?

MR SARDIWALLA: Chairperson, I must just correct that.  My notes state that he did in fact say that ANC members were staying at Edendale.  They then returned and wanted to claim their houses and land.  He did say that earlier in the evidence, I've got that noted.

MR MALAN: He said houses and property, it wasn't necessarily land.  I didn't read that, because he said that then they went to stay to eNkanyezeni.

CHAIRPERSON: So when did the majority of ANC members return to Maqonqo?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Around 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.  I put it to you Mr Zulu, that Maqonqo was an IFP area and further, that there were no ANC people, no ANC area at Maqonqo.  Sorry, not that there were no ANC people, there were no known ANC people at Maqonqo.  What is your response to that?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: There were known ANC members at Maqonqo.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you known to be an ANC member?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And it is your evidence that you have always been an ANC member?  You never belonged to the IFP?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

MS THABETHE: I further put it to you, Mr Zulu, that as a result of the fact that there were no known ANC members in the area and there wasn't an ANC area at Maqonqo, the IFP never attacked the kraals of ANC members in the area, as you have stated at paragraph 6.9.  What is your response to that?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: I would say yes, they should be saying so because the ANC had fled from the area.

CHAIRPERSON: But is it not your evidence that they returned, quite a number of them returned around 1992?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, I'm saying that is why they say so, because the ANC fled but returned, but they did not have a specific area that they called their own.  They resided in that area assuming that they were the IFP and that was their area.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying they also assumed that you were an IFP member?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: No, I would not say so.  I would say no because they would not be able - they did not see me, just like members of the ANC who were residing in the same area but they did not see.

CHAIRPERSON: So you are actually saying ANC members were not visible in Maqonqo?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: They were not visible for the fact that they had fled before and on their return they had returned to ANC people who had remained in the area and those who had remained behind, the ANC who had remained behind, had done so in the pretence that they were not members of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: My question is, are you suggesting that post 1992, when a majority of ANC people came back, returned, claimed their property and houses, they were not visible as ANC members?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, they did not display that they were ANC members and even where we were residing, we were not staying with IFP members, we were staying on our own, and IFP members were staying separate from us.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.  I also put it to you Mr Zulu that you were not a known member of the ANC at Maqonqo because the area is IFP and also because your family at Mboyi was IFP, so they also took it that you are also IFP.  What is your response to that?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes, my family belongs to the IFP but I did not join the IFP, I joined the ANC.

MS THABETHE: Mr Zulu at paragraph 6.6 ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Sorry, may I just make sure of the answer here - are you saying your family knew that you were ANC or did they not know that you were ANC?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: My family knew.

CHAIRPERSON: That you were ANC?

AARON ZIBUSE ZULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But Mkhize knew that you were an ANC person?