Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MR VALLY: You say that you had a friend who used to stay with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, who was this friend?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: That's Vusiso Mabuza.

MR VALLY: Did you have any relatives who stayed with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Can you repeat that question?

MR VALLY: Do you have any relatives who stayed with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Any relative presently, yes, I can say yes.

MR VALLY: Tell us who.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: That's Zinzi's son.

MR VALLY: How is he related to you?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Sizwe Sithole, the father of the son is my - was my cousin, in fact.

MR VALLY: So you had a relative staying at Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house, namely Sizwe Sithole?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, that's positive.

MR VALLY: Do you know what you were charged with when you were arrested with Jerry Richardson and others?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Definitely not.

MR VALLY: Did you make a warning statement?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No.

MR VALLY: I want to show you a warning statement that you made to the police and tell me if you recognise that.

MR MILLER: I wonder, Chairperson, if I could have a copy please.

MR VALLY: It should be in your file, Mr Miller.

MR VALLY: Do you recognise your signature on that?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I only recognise my name but not my signature.

MR VALLY: Did you ever appear in court in connection with your arrest?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, I did.

MR VALLY: Did they ask you to plead guilty or not guilty while you were in court?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, they did.

MR VALLY: What charges did they put to you?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I can't understand the charges because I think the Commission mis-recognised my age by then.

MR VALLY: What was your age at the time?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I was born in 1972, I think the Commissioner can just calculate along those lines.
(General laughter)

MR VALLY: I'll try and help you.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.  How good is your arithmetic?

MR VALLY: You were 17 at the time when you were arrested?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: That's what I think according to your calculation.

MR VALLY: Did you understand the charges put to you in court at the age of 17?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Definitely no, because even now I'm not sure what was really my charge by then.

MR VALLY: When you appeared in court who did you appear with?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I firstly appeared with a Mr Jerry Richardson.

MR VALLY: Do you know what Mr Jerry Richardson is doing now?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: According to my understanding he has been in prison for the murder of Stompie.

MR VALLY: Now if you know that Jerry is still in prison for the murder of Stompie, and you were in court with him, why are you trying to play games around this issue?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Sir, I'm trying to put to you that my charge, I didn't know my charge by then, because I think there are three charges involved in this case.

MR VALLY: I understand.  What three charges?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: According to my knowledge it's kidnapping, assault and a murder.

MR VALLY: Thank you.  The statement I've shown you just now that you made when you were arrested, do you agree you made a statement?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No, in fact what is written there it's in Afrikaans, and I can't even read a sentence in Afrikaans, then I can't say it's my statement.

MR VALLY: Do you recognise your signature?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: As I've just said that I only saw, I only see my name but not my signature.

MR VALLY: I've just shown you your signature, do you recognise your signature?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, I can see my name.

MR VALLY: Is it your signature?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No, it's not my signature.

MR VALLY: Do you remember putting your fingerprint onto a statement when you were arrested?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: Thank you.  Do you know Lerathodi Ikaneng?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: How do you know him?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: He's an elder friend.

MR VALLY: Is he a friend of yours?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: He was my brother's friend, and in fact we are living in the same location.

MR VALLY: Are you aware of what happened to him?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No, I don't have any idea.

MR VALLY: Have you met him recently?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Recently, what do you mean?

MR VALLY: Last year.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, I did meet with him.

MR VALLY: Does anything look different about him?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No, I can't see anything different.

MR VALLY: You haven't seen the scars on his throat?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I happen to be ignorant on checking on people.

MR VALLY: A man has his throat slit with a massive scar on his throat, and you tell me he's a friend of yours, and you don't notice the difference?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: He appears to be not a full-time friend of mine, he is just an ordinary friend who lives in a location.

MR VALLY: Mr Sithole, what work are you doing now?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Presently I'm a protection service member in Air Force Company South Africa.

MR VALLY: Are you aware that if you lie under oath you are committing a crime?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: That's positive, yes.

MR VALLY: Will you please stop fooling with us, we don't have time to fool around.  Answer the questions honestly and directly, and we'll finish off.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, I think what I'm giving to you is a true reflection of what I am.

MR VALLY: What happened to Sizwe Sithole?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: To my understanding, Sizwe Sithole died in prison.

MR VALLY: What was he arrested for?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I'm definitely not sure of the charges therefore.

MR VALLY: Did you ever make enquiries when your cousin was arrested as to what he was arrested for?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: By that time, sir, the political situation was so tense for myself, and then I didn't have time to play around the police station.

MR VALLY: Well let's talk about that then.  You were arrested for, amongst other things, the kidnapping and assault of Stompie Seipei, Kenny Gase, Pelo Mekgwe, and Thabiso Mono, can you confirm that?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Yes, sir.

MR VALLY: You were released on bail, who paid your bail?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Mrs Mandela paid my bail.

MR VALLY: After you were released on bail, you absconded, is that true?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: That's correct.

MR VALLY: Who helped you leave the country?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Comrades within the location ...(intervention)

MR VALLY: Can you tell us specifically who?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I can't specify the person because I happen to be - to having no knowledge of who exactly helped me, but what I can say is that we manoeuvred as comrades to get out of the country.

MR VALLY: Do you know who helped you?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: No, I don't know who helped me.  I'm saying we manoeuvred to get out of the country.

MR VALLY: I'm not sure if I understand you.  You were helped by unknown people to leave the country?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I was not helped by either anybody but we manoeuvred as comrades to leave out of the country.

MR VALLY: You are not making sense, Mr Sithole.  You say that you knew nothing about the charges, now you tell us you know what you were charged with. If you were entirely as innocent as you claim, why didn't you stand trial?

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Sir, I don't know whether I'm making sense to you.

MR VALLY: No, you are not.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: Can I explain something to you.

MR VALLY: Sure.

JOSEPH JABULANI SITHOLE: I don't know whether it's making logic when you are saying to me when I'm taking a lift to Bophuthatswana and taking another lift to Botswana, there is somebody who helped me, then I must mention that those people who gave me lifts, that's what you are saying?