Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

MR BOOYENS: The feedback which you and the lower ranks got from the more senior members, was that it was not a prescribed one, but an acceptable method to take, was that correct?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is the only conclusion we arrived at.

MR BOOYENS: You've heard the evidence that you yourself and Mr Nieuwoudt, abducted the two deceased?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: That Mr Van Rensburg joined you?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: That you went to Cradock?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And that Messrs Van Rensburg and Nieuwoudt did the two deeds there and killed the two persons?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: That they later burnt their bodies and threw away the remains?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: The vehicle that had been used, was later taken to the Lesotho border to create the impression that they had left the country?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Do you then confirm the contents of pages 19 and 20 of your supplementary documentation?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: On page 21 you handled the political objective you wanted to achieve.  I think to a certain extent you have dealt with this.  Do you confirm what is written here?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I do confirm it.

MR BOOYENS: Were you satisfied that the only way in which you could achieve this political objective, was to kill these two deceased persons?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Something which I may have failed to mention, you have already said that there was talk of elimination.  The South African Defence Force, Special Forces, it sounds as though these were these super soldiers, did you discuss this with them at all?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, it was following instructions from head office.  If I go back to the beginning where, when we made arrests or had certain information, they wanted to sit in during the interrogation, we did not want to allow this.  Then we were asked that we provide them with information on these members because we knew in the first instance that there had been bomb explosions, there had been numerous here in Port Elizabeth.  We knew where these were coming from but we didn't know when they would occur.  And I then deduced that they were busy with planning.

MR BOOYENS: Ex post facto are you aware that at the end of 1982 the Specialised Forces did have certain targets which they attacked in Lesotho, certain people were killed and these were, were those targets based on information given to you?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Whether it was to your head office or directly to Specialised Forces?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: I just want to deal with your own attitude first of all.  There were the words of the politicians, the speeches of politicians, we have dealt with this in depth, you've heard what your colleagues said, what the politicians said, what they were announcing.  You were aware of this?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Now, amongst your own ranks and what would have been passed through to you, coming from head quarters as it were, was any pressure applied to you to stabilise the situation in the Eastern Cape?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did the impression become stronger that there was a total onslaught and that you had to use total resistance to combat this?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you understand it in this way?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I did.

MR BOOYENS: And did you act in the way that you did, on the grounds of this?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Then you provide a summary or let me sum up, you did what you did because you wanted to maintain the government of the day?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You were a member of the National Party?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: According to your beliefs, I have already dealt with this, you believed that the policy of the National Party was the desirable policy?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Do you then confirm the contents of pages 21 and 22 and 23 of the application?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Just a few aspects I want to touch on.  Why are you applying for amnesty?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Your Honour, because I am sorry that these circumstances should have driven me to commit crimes.  The new government has introduced a basis, they have started a basis, they have invited us to come forward with the truth and that is why I filed an application.

MR BOOYENS: Your application was only served shortly before the fist date?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: It could then be asked why so late if you were sorry about what you had done?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: The whole process Your Honour, was mistrusted in the beginning.  And I also felt that I would not be dealt fairly and that this is just a way to check us and get us before the courts.  And the cost implication was also something that there was not finality on.

MR BOOYENS: After many negotiations with Police ranks,  a recommendation came from Van der Merwe, the former Commissioner of Police, that the Police officers should apply for amnesty, is that correct?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: This played a role in leading you to apply for amnesty?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Did you go and see an Attorney to have the application served on your behalf?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: It took some time, it is not something that can be done immediately?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: It did take quite a lot of time, yes.

MR BOOYENS: If the Commission would just bear with me.   Is there anything else you wish to add in this regard?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, Your Honour.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Did anyone within your ranks, that is the Eastern Cape Regional Security structure put pressure on you to do this against your will?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: To do what Your Honour?

ADV SANDI: To be involved in the planning and the killing of Mthimkhulu and Madaka?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, no pressure was exerted on me to do this.

ADV SANDI: I hear that you say you are sorry that circumstances drove you into doing these kinds of things, committing such crimes.  Can I ask you a question, what would be your reaction in future if circumstances were to develop which would compel you to commit such crimes again?  Would you adhere to such pressures?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Your Honour, I don't believe so.  I don't believe that I will again have myself misled and indoctrinated in such a way that I would end up in a situation  such as this.  And I hope that the country and parties will differ to such an extent that this kind of thing will become necessary again.
	I hope and believe that I, myself, will not be involved in this kind of thing again.

ADV SANDI: You also say that you did not apply for amnesty as early as you would have wanted to do, because you did not really trust the amnesty process.  Did I understand you correctly on that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct Your Honour.

ADV SANDI: Did you tell anyone that you had an intention to apply for amnesty, but you had a problem in that you did not really trust the process.  Who did you tell about your problem of not trusting this amnesty process?