Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-06-17

MR NOMPOZOLO: You have mentioned that there was, it was chaotic there, it looked like a circus to you.  Whilst they were talking, what language were they using?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: They were talking Xhosa, they were talking English.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And you yourself, you understand Xhosa and you can speak it very well?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nompozolo.  Mr Obose?

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Sims, maybe we have to come to look at your definition of a political gathering.  Is there a specific definition that can be given to a political gathering, can you define, or can anybody indeed, define a political gathering or what would constitute a political gathering?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: A political gathering as I know it from the Police's side, Mr Chairman, is where you've got your let's say two or more people gathering political aims.

MR OBOSE: And what constitutes a political aim?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: It depends what political party I suppose, you are on.  My political aims and their political aims will be different.

MR OBOSE: All right.  Is it only people who are affiliated to parties who can talk things political?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: I am sure it is not, Mr Chairman.

MR OBOSE: Can't Policemen think or talk political generally speaking, I am not saying that is correct to do so?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: I am sure they can, Mr Chairman.

MR OBOSE: Right, now I am a bit curious what in your view should have been said in that meeting, to constitute political talk?  I just want to get your impressions because your impression is that this was not political.  What should have been said or you know, for you to conclude that this was political, this meeting?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: Mr Chairman, if we can say this was a meeting and it would have been a political meeting, or political talk, I would have supposed some political organisation would have been mentioned, some action plans, if they had any political action plan, could have been mentioned, but nothing of that was mentioned.

MR OBOSE: Mr Sims, you are talking about Policemen here, we are not talking about members of a liberation movement.  Are you supposing that the nature of the talk would be the same or should have been the same?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: Mr Chairman, if the Policemen wanted to as they alleged, wanted to overthrow or to let Brigadier Gqozo step down, I am sure that whether they are Policemen or whether you are a private person or whatever the case may be, your aims are the same, so I think the way in addressing it, would be the same.

MR OBOSE: All right.  Mr Sims, fortunately you are attached to the Riot Unit, I am sure you should know what I am talking about.  Is it correct Mr Sims, that in general any coup even the aborted one in Lesotho, has the effect, one of its characteristics is that either the Ministers but certainly the Army and senior Policemen get taken hostage, isn't that correct?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: I have read that, but I wasn't involved in one myself yet, Mr Chairman.

MR OBOSE: I am talking about generally speaking, I mean we read about these things in the papers, myself included Mr Sims.

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: I have read about it Mr Chairman.

MR OBOSE: Isn't that correct?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: I can't say it is correct, I have read about it Mr Chairman.

MR OBOSE: Mr Sims, as a Policeman and a senior one at that, isn't that essentially what constitutes a coup, that the people who are in charge of the military Forces, are rendered helpless such that they are not able to issue instructions which would have the effect of defending the person who is the Head of State, isn't that essentially what a coup is?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: It usually works like that, Mr Chairman.

MR OBOSE: Isn't that what effectively happened that day and night?  Isn't it that plus minus 50 Officers of the Ciskei Police were at the Police College and somewhat coincidentally if one were to follow your line of argument, somewhat coincidentally that very night, Gqozo resigned?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: It was just funny to me Mr Chairman, that if that was their aim and that is why I decided to oppose the application as well, that was on seeing that they said that it was a political, the applicants said it was a political motivation and it was absolute nonsense according to me, because there was nothing, it is just funny that they will take all the Officers hostage, but the Officers would be made fools of, talking about money, there was nothing whatsoever at that whole meeting, said about ousting Brigadier Gqozo, nothing, except the singing, and as I said, with the singing as soon as they brought in an Officer, where money was involved, the name from Gqozo was changed to that Officer's name.

MR OBOSE: Mr Sims, let's change the scenario, let's suppose it is a Committee, ordinary football club or dart club and the general members are not happy about what his going on in that club, and the Executive is made to join a group that sings and says "down with the Chairman" and the Chairman somehow from intelligence sources learns that oh, my club is meeting and people are chanting "down with me" and my Executive is with them and resigns, what would you call that, removal of that Executive, of the Chairman, doesn't it amount to that?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: Mr Chairman, I don't think this is my personal opinion, I don't think we can an organisation like the Police and the Army where they play a different role, can be compared to a club.  That is totally a different thing.

MR OBOSE: No, no, answer the question.  I didn't ask you to, I said I changed the scenario.

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: I have never been part of a club where the Chairman was forced to resign, I can't comment on that.

MR OBOSE: No, I gave you the facts.  I am asking you from the facts which I gave you.

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: I don't know what would happen Mr Chairman.

MR OBOSE: No, I am saying from my set of facts, the Chairman resigns, wouldn't it be said that the effect of that meeting was arranged to let the Executive or the Chairman to resign, isn't that what you would say?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Mr Chairman, I have to object.  Whilst I believe that Mr Obose is asking maybe what he believes is a genuine question, but with respect Mr Chairman, the facts he is putting, are not the same with the facts on the day in question.  It is just what he perceives as something which could happen.  That becomes an unfair question to Mr Sims.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think what Mr Nompozolo is saying is that you are asking the witness to speculate.  Isn't it better for you to stick to the facts of this case, seeing that we have the facts before us, and leave the club?  I don't know whether the examples add anything further to the hard facts of this case, perhaps you can work with the facts.

MR OBOSE: Well Mr Chairman, on the objection, I was not saying the witness should make an analogy at all.  What I was saying was what would commonly happen, but of course, the witness has evaded the question in any event, and I cannot take it any further.  The witness evaded to answer the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR OBOSE: I will not take it any further.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps it is also a question that you can address in argument, if it is necessary.

MR OBOSE: As the Chairman pleases.  Now, you say nothing political was said.  What about the slogan "down with Gqozo"?  You said nothing about Gqozo was said?  Is that what you said?

RAYMOND PIETER SIMS: I said Mr Chairman, I said in the singing, that is the only place where Gqozo's name came to the fore and that they changed according to whoever came in, but right during the night, while we were there, nothing else was said about Gqozo stepping down, except as I said when Mr Goosen came and he told them.