Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-18

MOSES VELI LLALE: I don't know whether it will be correct maybe there is very short answers that will require me to answer in English I will do that.

UNKNOWN: : Sir I am going to pose my questions in English then you can choose whether you want to make use of the interpreter or not.
	Do I understand your position to be today that you are requesting the committee to consider amnesty for you with regard to the second shot?

MOSES VELI LLALE: In generally I might concede a second shot but they are shots that I fired that day.

UNKNOWN: : Do you also wish to apply for amnesty with regard to the first shot you fired? Is that your intention today?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes I've already said that. I am not going to say the first or the second shot because the people who died they were shot behind so there was no first or second shot. People who shot at that particular time were shot when they were turned their back on us.

UNKNOWN: : Are you conceding therefore that both your first and second shot might have been unjustified on the day?

MOSES VELI LLALE: By the time I was shooting I had a reason to shoot and there was a reason because there was a particular person with an AK on my focus but since seeing that on that day this particular person was not shot. People who had already turned their back on me were shot so I am not saying it was justified but I can say maybe I was reckless but not to say I was not justified.

UNKNOWN: : Are you therefore conceding that your actual target, the gentleman with the red T-shirt was not hit by you?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I concede to that.

UNKNOWN: : Now Sir you made an application which is contained at pages 102 to 108 of exhibit or bundle C of the papers. You've already confirmed the correctness of that application. Is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: : I've pointed out earlier this morning to Mr Moolman that both his application form and your application form the two are virtually identical on material aspects. Do you accept that proposition sir?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes I accept that.

UNKNOWN: : How did it come about that the two applications are so similar?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I think Mr Moolman has tried to explain this. I took my application home with me. I wrote everything here. The following morning where I didn't understand for instance there is a question of self- defence you needed people with medical, what did I say, legal advisers to advise on matters of legal defence. Then on that day Steve Moolman was there when we asked our questions to our legal advisers. The he said to me that I should explain some aspect which are written the way he didn't understand like page 103 where it said
"I shot at a group of IFP marchers...."
and other things which now I can't remember very well but I remember him asking me about similar things, then I had to explain to him in Sotho that this is what I said here and this is what I said there, and I also gave him my own application to read. Then after that I don't know really whether he did record everything that is here but I remember myself giving this to Moolman to read it over.

UNKNOWN: : So at that the time when you parted with your application form you weren't present with Moolman any longer. He left with your application form?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I think on our consultation it was three of us. It was Jagwe, me and Moolman we were given these forms and then we had to go home with the forms and then when I was filling these things I was at home, then I had to come back for consultation where we met the three of, that's Jagwa, me and Moolman and his form, Moolman, was not completed fully, names and blah, blah was there but there were things that he needed an explanation, hence I explained to him in Sotho then I gave him my application to see how I wrote some of the things there.

UNKNOWN: : Did you and him then part ways did he leave with your application in his possession?

MOSES VELI LLALE: No.

UNKNOWN: : What happened Sir did he read your application in your presence is that the facts?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes that is what I am trying to say.

UNKNOWN: : And did he then complete his application by making use of your answers?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I think this is what happened on that day but I explained everything and his problem was how to write it in English. So I think then he decided to write similar words that have been written here. That is what I think happened. I didn't ask him then because I only gave him mine to refer this is what I have written Steve, then I gave it to him. Maybe he might have decided to write the similar words which are here.

UNKNOWN: : Did he fill in his form in your presence?

MOSES VELI LLALE: As I have indicated before that we took different ways when we were give forms but the following day when we came back some of the details were not filled in, like the one I've indicated to him. That is only where he decided to fill them in. Hence I am saying maybe he might have took them from my application as they were written to his application.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was were you together when he filled in his form?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: : And did he use your form to complete his did he look at yours then fill in his form Sir?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I think that is what happened on that day.

UNKNOWN: : But why do you say you think that is what happened surely you must have either seen it happening or you wouldn't have seen it happening Sir?

MOSES VELI LLALE: No to be honest to you our legal advisers also asked us similar questions that you are asking to us that, there is a problem here Steve Moolman and your application they look similar. Then Steve didn't tell me that time no that I wrote everything that you wrote here. So I also discovered when we were asked by our lawyers you know your application form look similar how it happened. Then he said no I remember he took your CV, your application, he was saying to me that he remembers very well that he took my form and then completed his. But after he had explained things, so he might have saw the things similar to how I saw them, because here he is speaking about the marchers which we all know who were there. So I also said to him these were the people who we killed that day. So as I am saying I explained to him why I wrote all these words here.

UNKNOWN: : Do I understand your evidence correctly that what is contained in your application form from pages 102 to 108 are your own words, they were not taken from somebody elses form, they weren't suggested by somebody else, these are the words you chose to use. Is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yes, yes that's correct.

UNKNOWN: : So if Mr Moolman's form looks very similar to yours or almost identical to yours in the almost all respects and responds to almost all the questions it could only mean one thing he copied from your form?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I don't know what to say it's correct to use I think, but I think that is what happened on that day.

UNKNOWN: : Sir may we refer to your application and specifically at page 111 at paragraph 11.

MOSES VELI LLALE: Yeah, I got it.

UNKNOWN: : Could you please just take your time and read paragraph 11, Sir.

MOSES VELI LLALE: I've completed.

UNKNOWN: : Now do you agree with me Sir if one reads paragraph 11 it is quite clear that from the reading of this paragraph you didn't observe any firearms amongst the crowd at least until such time as the two policemen tried to divert or stop the marchers. Is that correct?

MOSES VELI LLALE: According to what is written in my statement then I didn't put those things. It is true.

UNKNOWN: : It does not mention a single firearm do you agree?

MOSES VELI LLALE: I agree. Are you only relating to this paragraph 11?