Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-09-15

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning.  We want to start.  Mr Mapoma, I assume that we're dealing with the matter of Phila Martin Dolo?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, that is the position.

CHAIRPERSON: Just then for the purposes of this record.  It is Tuesday, the 15th of September 1998.  It's a sitting of the Amnesty Committee hearing the application of Phila Martin Dolo, case number 3485 of 1996.  My name is Denzil Potgieter presiding, with Advocate Sigodi and Mr Lax.  Mr Mapoma, would you place yourself on record please?

MR MAPOMA: I'm Zuko Mapoma, the evidence leader for the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  And for Mr Dolo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo, representing Mr Phila Dolo in this matter.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr Mbandazayo.  Mr Mapoma, is there anything that needs to be placed on record before we proceed?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Mr Chairman.  What I would like to announce is that we are dealing with incidents here where in one incident a policeman was killed and another policeman injured.
	In that incident, Chairperson, we have notified the next-of-kin of the deceased, in the person of Khanyise Chawuke.  And the father of Khanyise Chawuke, the deceased, is - no, no, no.  Sorry, Chairperson.  Khanyise Chawuke is the father of the deceased.  The deceased was Constable Mabaso.  And then we have notified Sergeant Edward Nelushi who survived the shooting.  There's an application for attempted murder on his life.  He is here attending the proceedings.  The next-of-kin of Mr Mabaso have indicated that they will not be coming to the proceedings.  They will not be attending the hearing.  
	Then there is Mr E N Veldman on whose life an attempt was made.  Also he was a policeman.  At the time they went to arrest the applicant a shootout ensued.  He is also here attending the proceedings as notified.  That is the position, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma.  The family of the late Constable Mabaso, they are aware of the proceedings but have elected not to participate or to be present, is that correct?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And, is it Sergeant Nedushi?

MR MAPOMA: Sergeant Nelushi.

CHAIRPERSON: Nelushi, sorry.  Nelushi in respect of the attempted murder count is present.  Has he indicated any particular approach towards the matter?  Is he simply attending to listen in or does he wish to oppose or does he wish anything in particular to be recorded from his perspective?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, he has indicated to me that he is not opposing the application, but he would like at some point to be considered as a victim, and to that end he would like to say something, address the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.  But he is present?  He is here?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, he's present here.

CHAIRPERSON: We can deal with that when we come to that point.  And then Ian Veldman is also present you say.  And what is his attitude?

MR MAPOMA: He is also present, Chairperson, and he is not opposing the application, but he's here to listen.  But he has indicated to me that should any matter arise which he's not happy with, he will raise it with me.  So I would bring it to the attention of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  We'll bear that in mind.  Mr Mbandazayo, is there anything that you wish to raise before we get into the application proper?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, there's none except to, as usually as yesterday, that the Committee has unsigned affidavits in the bundles, and that the signed affidavit, the original, is with the applicant, Mr Chairman.
	As I indicated, that I will hand them when we have finalised the matter, the signed affidavit to the Committee.  And also, Mr Chairman, maybe my colleague has forgotten the implicated persons, some of them, which appear here are also present here.  I understand they have been notified to Godfrey, let me - Peter Mathebula and Godfrey Mochundu.  They are present, Mr Chairman, in the proceeding.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo.  Can you just give me that last surname?  Godfrey?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Godfrey Mochundu.

CHAIRPERSON: Mochundu.

MR LAX: Are the names not the other way around, Mr Mbandazayo?  It's Patrick Peter Mochundu and Godfrey Mathebula.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, yes.  Thank you, thank you, Mr Chairman.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I notice it is actually part of the papers.  There are documents relating to those two.  But you say they are present.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, they are present.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you wish to proceed with the application?  Do you wish us to swear in your client?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman.  He may be sworn in, Mr Chairman.  Thank you.

MR LAX: Thank you, Mr Dolo.  Would you please rise.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: (sworn states)

MR LAX: Thank you.  Sworn in, Chairperson.  You may be seated.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I'll do as we did yesterday.  I'll go through it for the benefit, if my colleague has - I think that will be the trend, Mr Chairman.  I'll go through the affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just interrupt you for a minute.  In what language would your client be testifying?  Before I explain, I want to explain just again the channels bit.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, applicant is Xhosa-speaking, but I think he will be testifying in English, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: All right.  It doesn't matter.  There is a translation as well.  So, it's entirely up to him.  He can make use of that.  I think you can proceed, Mr Mbandazayo.
CHAIRPERSON EXPLAINS CHANNELS FOR TRANSLATION

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Dolo, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Committee.  Do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: I do.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I'll proceed for the purposes of the record to read the affidavit.  Mr Chairman, this time as I proceed I'll ask in some of the paragraphs to the applicant to expatiate and give clarification in some.  I'll be glad if the Committee feels that way will stop me and ask questions on that.  If it pleases the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: (Inaudible)