Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

ADV MEMANI: Look, what in essence I want to suggest to you is that you in fact refer to Flip Loots as your direct commander because that is how in fact you operated.

HENDRIK BOKABA: Flip Loots was my direct commander.  I explained the situation that in the township there were three people who were team leaders but our direct commander - all of us was Captain Flip Loots.  We had team leaders but our direct commander - all of us - those people I've mentioned, was Captain Loots.

ADV MEMANI: And on the version that you have given there seems to be no suggestion at all that Hechter would have been active with you and Selahla.

CHAIRPERSON: But you have just made him concede that he regularly received instructions from Hechter, that's what you have just done as a result of your questioning, you have got him to tell us that he did, which he hadn't told us before but you have now brought that out for which we're obliged.

ADV MEMANI: What I'm saying Mr Chairman is that when one has
regard to his version, there is no more than what was said by Loots that Hechter was the commander, the commander was in fact Loots and that is - that corroborates Ngo.

CHAIRPERSON: Ngo never knew Hechter, did he?

ADV MEMANI: Yes, he did not know Ngo - he did not know Hechter because Hechter ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: You've just put before us evidence that ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: You've put before us evidence that they received instructions from Hechter as the team leader and also from Loots.

ADV MEMANI: What I said Mr Chairman, is that in the ordinary course of things Hechter being the direct commander, rather being the person who's the team leader would have been the person they were taking instructions from and he says yes and I'm say - I'm putting that subject to the qualification that it is their version here in court and I'm saying that that version is not true.  The truth is that the commander was Flip Loots and he worked directly with - and Selahla - and he worked directly with Selahla, Ngo and Bokaba.   Do you have any difficulty with that suggestion Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because that was not the version they were putting up till you started questioning him about it.  It's you who
...[inaudible] this information for us.  Will you continue?

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.  I understood it to be the evidence of Loots.
	Now I put it to you that Ngo - you described Colonel Loots as your direct commander because he was in fact your direct commander and Hechter wasn't in fact your direct commander.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I've just explained that Hechter was my team leader then in the field which I've explained, that is Shweshanguwe, Mamelodi, Attridgeville, they were team leaders and then all of us, our commander in Attridgeville, Mamelodi and Shweshanguwe, was Captain Loots.  He was the one who was the - the director - the commander of section B.

ADV MEMANI: You see, but you referred to him - you referred to him not as a section commander there but as a direct commander.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I don't know how you understand that.  He was the person who was responsible for us, we were under him.  He was our direct commander.  He was the one who is above all people or officers or staff who were working with him.  I don't know how to explain it so that you should understand that.

ADV MEMANI: And you did not at 6.4, suggest that Hechter would have been on leave at the time and hence you had to speak to Loots?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Yes, there is no ...[inaudible] I explained that he was
on leave, that Hechter was on - the whereabouts of Hechter I explained yesterday.  I didn't say he was on leave, I said I don't remember well but I think he was on leave.  I never said he was on leave, I said maybe he was on leave but I don't remember well.

ADV MEMANI: And if Ngo had come to know about your activities - about the security branch merely from being a member of reaction unit, one would have expected him to ...[inaudible] and think that Hechter was the person who was your direct commander?

HENDRIK BOKABA: Please repeat you question.  I'm sorry to ask you to repeat the question, I don't understand it well.

ADV MEMANI: You told us that when Hechter was not in - on leave, the person you received instructions directly from was Hechter.  And what I'm putting to you is that if Ngo had become aware of the activities of security branch as an outsider, he would have ...[inaudible] and thought that Hechter was in fact your commander?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I'm finding it difficult to follow the exact jest of this question and I object against it.  I can see the witness doesn't have a clue what is asked.

ADV MEMANI: I don't understand the objection, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't what counsel is trying to say was that if Mr Ngo was merely an outsider working there and going by what he saw, what he would have seen was Hechter giving commands, he wouldn't
know that Loots was lurking in the background.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I explained that he could have known Flip Loots because I took him to Flip Loots for an interview because he had an interest to join the security branch,  that is why he did not know Hechter that he was a team leader of Mamelodi.  I hope that if he worked with us at any stage - even my application for amnesty, he could have made the similar applications.

ADV MEMANI: I put it to you that you were involved in the activities in which Mr Ngo has implicated you.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I say that is a lie, I never worked with Ngo.  The person I worked with is Danny Selahla, he is in my application for amnesty that I and myself we did what and we agree - we accept those and Ngo is not part of our applications.  Then I believe that if he worked with us he could have been included in my application.  In my application Selahla is there and Hechter is there, my names are there and Danny Selahla's names are there.  If it is true that Ngo worked with us I believe that Hechter could have included him in his application for amnesty.

ADV MEMANI: You see, you did not apply for these things because you did not know that something was simmering at Grootvlei, you had forgotten about Ngo.

HENDRIK BOKABA: I never worked with Ngo.  What he did, he did those
by himself in my absence.

ADV MEMANI: You, Selahla and - you, Selahla and Loots conspired to apply for amnesty in respect of prominent events or events involving prominent people.

HENDRIK BOKABA: Let me answer you this way, if you may look at the application of Colonel Loots, there is nowhere Colonel Loots speaks of me but if you can look at Hechter's application, you would see that he's mentioning my name.

ADV MEMANI: And ...[intervention]

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I just want to clarify one thing in respect of this evidence so this witness is not cross-examined later on.  He says that he has testified now about he's mentioned by Colonel Loots.  I have just - I have explained to you last week that Colonel Loots mentioned him in the church incident which they didn't clear up when Colonel Loots drew the application and the mention of Bokaba in Loot's application about the church incident, was a wrong reference.  I just want to make that point clear so as not to prejudice this witness in further proceedings in future.

ADV MEMANI: If that is the case, I don't understand because I understood his evidence this morning to be that he's applied for amnesty in respect of the church as well.

MR DU PLESSIS: That wasn't his evidence.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.  Now, Mr ...[intervention]

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, the question as I remember it ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He was asked if he had heard of places being burnt and he then said he had heard of the church being burnt from Colonel Loots.