Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1991-09-08

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: I would say that is his name or Zwelinzima because I'm confusing the two names for the two brothers because all of them start with Zwe.  Mazgwe is his name - other name, that is Matthews Mzuzwana.  After we observed that the meeting is held, we proceeded to Bato location.
	When we arrived there at Bato location, we found that there is a van - these big yellow vans.  I don't know what kind of a van is that - it's a big van which would take up to 10 to 15 police inside, in other words, it looks like a bus.  There are chairs on the two sides and there is a passage in the middle.

ADV MEMANI: Did anything happen at the bus?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Sergeant Mamome informed those people that there is a meeting which is held at AME church by Michael and in that meeting it seems they are arranging that police should be stabbed with knives.  It was late and it was at dusk if I remember well.  I went to the toilet, when I came back that big van was looking at the direction of the road.  Then I went inside because I saw that they were waiting for me.  I found Sergeant Mamome and they closed the door, then we left.
	When we arrived at African ...[inaudible] church, we found that these people have already left the meeting - they could be around 20 in number.  They went at different directions to 4 and 6 - Matlomona and others to the direction of Bato location.  That group which I'm talking about, it was Mazgwe and his brother.  They entered Kingston Street to ...[inaudible] to the direction of Rocklands.  We followed that small group - they were singing. 
	Inside that van Sergeant Mamome informed a certain gentleman who is a policeman, informing how - what kind of people were they and that they were carrying knives.  Then he pointed Mazgwe, then he said: "look on his waist".  We were able to see that there is a knife on his waist.  We went to Kings Street following them, we entered the tarred road.  They were walking alongside the road to the direction of Rocklands.  We followed them and they were still singing their songs - that is freedom songs.
	There is a place in Parming - I just forget the name of the tavern - that is where Sergeant Mamome informed the driver to go in front of them.  The driver went in front of them, then they stopped asking themselves what was happening because they were just walking on their own singing to their various homes.  Certain police alighted from the van and then stopped them from the front.  Maybe they started to be angry, they started asking what are the police doing?  What is happening because they're going to their respective homes?
	The certain policeman who was next to Nzito alighted from the car, they went straight to Mazgwe.  Mazgwe saw that this police is coming to me then he retreated then asking him: "what is happening, are you coming to arrest me or what"?   He put his hand inside his pocket.  This policeman had a gun, it was a gun which uses rubber bullets - it was a teargas gun.  
	Then after that he said to Mazgwe: "I'll shoot you", then Mazgwe said: "you are not going to shoot me", then he took out a knife then this policeman shot him with that teargas gun.  The gas exploded on his ear then he fell on the ground and then we could see a tear smoke, then they went to their various directions.  When they ran at different directions, Sergeant Mamome instructed the police who were in the van said: "you should not tell that you were in the van".  Then I and him - Mr Mamome ran.
	There is a certain police car which was standing somewhere then they - we went inside to Bato police station.  That was the end of the case though we reported to Colonel Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw about the incident, then they said they will cover us up.  They opened the case - Mazgwe went to the case but there is nowhere where we appeared.  Even the police didn't tell anybody that we were involved.  Whoever - we don't the person who was investigating the case and what he was told, I don't know.  Maybe the person who was investigating the case would tell the truth.

ADV MEMANI: The next incident is at paragraph 8 - the petrol bombing of the house of Citi Mzuzwana.
	Now, may you tell this Committee whether you got any instructions for the petrol-bombing of this house and from who?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: This is the house of Citi Mzuzwana, not of his parents.  The instructions for bombing of that house are from Colonel Coetzee and Lieutenant Shaw.  Citi Mzuzwana, after he was released he was real problematic according to the information we have gathered.  He used organise all the meetings everywhere.  Lieutenant Shaw explained to us that he doesn't want to understand.  They were supposed to go back to their house.  It was myself and Sergeant Mamome.
	I had already made my petrol bombs - they were ready.  There were three in number.  Sergeant Mamome arrived at myself driving a car - there was Nelson in that car.  I didn't know where did he managed to meet Nelson, I really can't tell - he is the one who knows.  We went together the three of us.  Inside the car he explained to me that Nelson is going to look for the car ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, with all due respect to my learned friend, can't he instruct his witness to stick with names that we know?  Instead of referring to Nelson Mr Chairman, it may be that we may know who it is but the reader of the record will be completely lost to hear of a new name creeping in.  It's so simple, if he could just mention Ngo.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that that is something that should be done, that when he mentions persons, he should mention the names that appear in his application forms such Zwelinzima Mzuzwana and when he mentions Sergeant Mamome, he should mention - use that name and not his first name.

ADV MEMANI: But we all know that he's referring to Nelson Ngo.  It's not justified in this instance Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: It is not, you have now ...[intervention]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.

CHAIRPERSON: You will kindly use surnames in future.  We do not - I support entirely what Mr Visser said.  He changes from name to name and incident to incident.  I take it you did have discussions with him yesterday?

ADV MEMANI: Yes, but you know this is not justified.  We know that he's speaking about Nelson Ngo, it's there in the application, it's not as if he's used a nickname or something else.
	You may proceed.

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: The three of us we were in the car, it was myself, Sergeant Mamome and Ngo and together with our petrol bombs.  We arrived at an open space like a field - we stopped our car there.  We left Ngo inside the car alone - we carried out our petrol bombs.  I'd managed to prepare everything while we were busy in the car driving to that space.  We arrived at Citi's place - Citi Mzuzwana's place - it is a four-roomed house.
	Mamome lit a petrol bomb.  I was having two petrol bombs and he had one.  On my left hand side I didn't light it, I only lit the one on my right-hand side.  I attacked for the first - he attacked for the first time and I attacked for the second time.  Where there were flames I threw the third one, knowing that it will manage to burst.

ADV MEMANI: Did the house burn?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: Yes, it burnt.

ADV MEMANI: Did you see Ngo again?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: We went back to him and then drove the car - he was still in that car.  Mamome took us back to our homes, he dropped me first at my place.  I don't know what happened to them with Ngo on their way.  The next day together myself and Mamome, we reported the incident that we managed to attack the house.

ADV DE JAGER: Wasn't Ngo with you when you reported?

MOHONAETSE STEPHEN MOTSAMAI: No, he was not present.

ADV MEMANI: Now the next incident is at paragraph 9 - the burning of a motor vehicle belonging to One Thabatha.
	Now can you tell the Committee about this incident?