Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

MR MOOSA: And you particularly referred us to Volume 2 at page 167, the report that features from page 167 through to 171.  The fact is it's impossible for us today, to determine what in this report came from your own information as the security police generally and what - if any, came from Mr Kondile.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I can say that there's a report in crypted message that I wrote during the interrogation but unfortunately I see that it stops on page 3 or 4.  I have no further details about this but I wrote a message in which I gave reasonable detail.  It contains amongst others by implication, what is written here but also contains further information.
	I'm referring to an encrypted message, page 172 of Volume 2, dated 17/7/1981.

MR MOOSA: Yes, did you want to highlight something in this encrypted message?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I'm just saying that this is my own - these are my own experiences but on the last page we refer to the fact that it follows onto page 4 and there is no 4, 5, 6 or 7.

MR MOOSA: Yes, that is from page 174 where it abruptly stops, that's what you say?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR MOOSA: The question put to you originally and it applies equally from the encrypted message you've identified, is that the security police would have information of it's own at all times, am I right?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR MOOSA: And this would include, not only what's happening in Lesotho but some information or a great deal on what's happening in the Eastern Cape region.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR MOOSA: And all I'm saying is, Mr Kondile is unfortunately not with us today to confirm or deny, that's it's impossible for us to say today what of this information comes from you a security branch and what came from Mr Kondile.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Unfortunately that is the case, yes.

MR MOOSA: What does emerge quite clearly [indistinct] which you felt he would be best able to fill.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR MOOSA: So I'm putting it to you that you have ensured that this young man, Mr Kondile, was guarded at all times and you would have ensured that he would have no opportunity to escape.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I took all possible steps, yes.

MR MOOSA: I'll also put it to you that it would be most unlikely that Mr Kondile would simply offer himself - would offer information to you, you would have to induce him and induce him by way of violent assaults

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I did say that in the beginning I assaulted him and thereafter we co-operated and worked together well. He gave various pieces of information to me which I didn't know about, I cannot take it any further than this.

MR MOOSA: Besides yourself who was effectively in charge, who were the other policemen involved at different times in the interrogation of Mr Kondile?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I cannot give you detail, what I do know is that Sergeant Raath was involved, he was also with us when we went to the Division Border and Transkei with him.

MR MOOSA: Yes, anybody else?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: As far as the guarding was concerned, Sergeant Dunster was involved.

MR MOOSA: Talking about Sergeant Dunster, you have no doubt seen his statement?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR MOOSA: It appears Mr Chairman, at pages 42 to 52 in the 1st Volume.
	Now, did I get you right, Mr Dunster was involved in the guarding, are you saying that he was not involved in the interrogation?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: As far as I can recall, yes.

MR MOOSA: Of course that means that he was involved in the interrogation?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: It's possible, it was a long time ago and anything is possible.

MR MOOSA: Anything is possible, and in his statement he says he was indeed involved, is that right?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's what he says, but I cannot remember that.

MR MOOSA: But he says more, he says other policemen were involved, and this appears at page 43 listing them and merely deleting the name of Mr Tongata who - actually Sergeant Tongata who was not involved in this case.  Included in those names would be Mr van Rensburg, Mr Du Plessis which is yourself, Captain Roelofse, Warrant Officer Niewoudt and Sergeant Raath, whom you've actually mentioned, is that right?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR MOOSA: Does this jog your memory, were these other people present who are listed here besides Sergeant Raath?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I'm satisfied that they were not involved and if I can remember correctly, it was the same time when Captain Roelofse and Niewoudt or Niewoudt per say, was busy with another detainee Mthimkhulu.

MR MOOSA: Niewoudt was involved with Mthimkhulu, you are however saying he was not involved with Kondile at all?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR MOOSA: The Dunster affidavit also tells us about methods of interrogation and on page 42, it speaks about: "The Spook" which is how a certain method was referred to in security circles, do you know about: "The Spook"?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR MOOSA: Tell us about: "The Spook".

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: In my evidence in chief I've already said that I never used it, nor did my personnel use it but as a young detective I did hear about this from the detective agency - services.

MR MOOSA: At page 45 of his statement, Dunster says that he was instructed by yourself to interrogate Mr Kondile and indeed he stayed at Jeffrey's Bay for a long period, for more than a moth.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I have no knowledge of that.  I do know that I requested him to go together with Mr Raath to guard him in the single quarters.

MR MOOSA: But he is specific, he talks about the torture of Sizwe Kondile.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I cannot help you any further.

MR MOOSA: Of course you are the person who would know if there was torture?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's why I say I have no knowledge of that.

MR MOOSA: And what he said is, that Mr Kondile was severely tortured and that the words: "We do not want another "Biko" case", came from you.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Most certainly not.

MR MOOSA: Are we to believe that this is a coincidence, that the same words were uttered by Mr Coetzee who claims he got it from Mr van Rensburg?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's all that I can believe.

MR MOOSA: Well, lets see what we have, we have you who lied in a statement, lied to the Harmse Commission, would you agree with that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

MR MOOSA: And we have Mr Coetzee - whatever criticisms can be labelled about the material facts that we're referring to, he has been consistent throughout, is that correct?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I do not want to express an opinion on that.

MR MOOSA: And the tubes and the electrical tyre shocks which were described at length by Mr Dunster, you say never occurred?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Not with this person, definitely not.

MR MOOSA: Well, Mr Dunster has other important information for us and this is that Mr Kondile refused to give you certain vital information.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I have no knowledge of that, perhaps he concealed things from me but I do not know about it.

MR MOOSA: It's at page 47 where it's in fact said - that is the second last paragraph, that he, Mr Kondile, would in fact blankly refuse to give certain information and that's when the torture would become more severe.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I deny that.

MR MOOSA: And Mr Dunster tells us that two white policemen arrived at Jeffrey's Bay from Pretoria - this is on top of page 48.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I have no comment.