Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-08-05

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: The first submission.  In that referred actually we are quoting now the former Minister of Police, Jimmy Kruger.  It was an article in fact on the 10th of August 1976 in (indistinct).  "Unrest in Soweto still continues.  The children of Soweto are well trained, the people, students have established student councils.  The basic danger is growing, it's growing Black consciousness and an inability to prevent incidents with what (indistinct) they act.  The Minister proposes this movement must be broken and thinks that the police should perhaps act in a bit more drastically and happy handedly, with all it entails more death, it will entail more death".  It was the people in the townships who were experiencing police brutality and oppression and it was about time in fact that we had to shift the battle area, the battlefields, in fact into White areas where people actually could experience what's going on in the townships.  Thank you.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Shoke in regard to targets such as Magistrate's Courts.  What was the ANC policy in that regard during 1987?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: It was an apartheid symbol.

MR LANDMAN: Was it considered to be a legitimate target?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Definitely, positive.  It represented the interests in fact of the then apartheid government.

MR LANDMAN: Mr ... (intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'm not sure of the function - things had changed by then.  My recollection is that there were separate entrances to the Courts, there were separate seating areas and matters of that nature.  That apartheid was very strongly visible in those Courts.  Is that one of the factors that you take into account in is saying it was a symbol?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I think everybody in this hall is aware in fact of people who went through apartheid Courts to prisons, sentenced to hang and so forth, but I also want to make it clear in fact in this Commission for the point at issue here is not the Magistrate Court it was the bomb blast.   That happened at the Magistrate Court, I think let us be clear on that.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Shoke we'll get to the actual target in a few minutes.  Possibly then we can turn directly to the bomb blast that occurred in the vicinity of the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court in 1987.  Could you explain to the Committee what your ... (inaudible - problems with mike).  Mr Shoke what role did you play in the planning of that incident?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: As far as I can say I facilitated in ensuring that this operation takes place.  We discussed the concept with General Nyanda who then briefed in fact our men on the ground and I had to ensure that they get all the necessary equipment for this operation.

MR LANDMAN: Now Mr Shoke when you say you discussed it with General Nyanda, could you give us more detail as to what you discussed, who the target would have been and how the operation would have been carried out?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: First we studied the modus operandi of the police, how do they react to incidents.  Based on that we also took into considerations that the target that we choose should be within the proximity where the police would react rapidly and we also took into cognisance that there might be other people who might not be military origin in nature and we felt that we've got to detonate a mini limpet mine so as to clear the area because normally as a procedure the police would have to cordon the area to clear it of unwanted people or civilians and that's when - and when the police are coming to the scene then we were to act against them (indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, am I right in saying (indistinct), first of all you'd employ a mini limpet mine to cause the police to cordon off and clear the area and then you would cause your explosion?

CHAIRPERSON: Exactly, you're correct.

MR LANDMAN: Do I understand your evidence correct that that is the modus operandi of the police that you referred to, namely that if there is an explosion, they then cordon off the area?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: That's correct, actually the guy that don't do that, they'd be irresponsible.

MR LANDMAN: Did General Nyanda and yourself discuss - Mr Shoke can I just ask you to wait until the question is over before you press your button otherwise my microphone goes off.  Did General Nyanda and yourself discuss who should be, who from the ANC or from MK should actually carry out this attack?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Correct.

MR LANDMAN: Who was chosen?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: It's one of the applicants, Joe Kgoele.

MR LANDMAN: How well did you know Joseph Kgoele at that stage?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: We had been working with him for quite some time and he has been coming to Swaziland for both political and military training and briefings.

MR LANDMAN: Did you have a particular view as to his ability to carry out this operation successfully?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: We never doubted that.

MR LANDMAN: When planning this operation, what importance did you attach to the possibility of civilian casualties?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: We were to ensure that we do not in fact inflict civilian casualties and the importance was that it should be in line with the ANC policy that we should minimise civilian casualties, hence the mini limpet mine.

MR LANDMAN: According to the plan, how would the main bomb be detonated?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: As soon as the police in fact had come in closer to where it is, there will be someone who'll keep watch at the police as they cordon the search area and as soon as they are on the target, you'd ambush them.

MR LANDMAN: How would he detonate the bomb?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: By remote control.

MR LANDMAN: Did you have discussion with Joseph Kgoele as to how this operation should be carried out?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: He was brief by General Nyanda at the beginning, but subsequent to that I did have more interaction with him.

MR LANDMAN: During your interaction with him, that's Joseph Kgoele, what did you and he discuss?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I trained him on the use of the remote devices.

MR LANDMAN: Did you supply Joseph Kgoele with the explosive needed for the blast?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: That's correct.

MR LANDMAN: Could you elaborate as to how you supplied him with these explosives?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I gave him a sketch of a DLB that he had to go and empty.

MR LANDMAN: Is that a dead letter box?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: That's correct.

MR LANDMAN: The remote control device that he was to use, who supplied him with that?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: I'm not sure as to whether I supplied it to him or he got it from Mr Nyanda, but I think that is immaterial.  He got it from us in Swaziland because he crossed the border with it.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us something about this device.  How large was it, was it a small thing?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: It is, it is a remote control the size of this gadget.

CHAIRPERSON: It's very much like what you use to turn on and off television sets.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Shoke the mini limpet mine that was to be used in order to ensure that the police cordon off the area?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: That's correct.

MR LANDMAN: What sort of impact would that sort of mine have, would it cause injuries to people?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: Yes and no.  If you are too near, yes on impact in fact yes it can cause some shock waves, but it is something like 200 grams, so it would even cause that much damage that is why actually it had to be used to clear off the scene.

MR LANDMAN: As part of the plan was it intended that injuries or deaths should be caused by the limpet mine, the mini limpet mine exploding?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: No.  I think the ANC policy is clear with regard to that, that we should try to avoid civilian casualties where we can.

MR LANDMAN: Mr Shoke you were not present when the bombs went off.  Is that correct?

SOLLIE ZACHERIAS SHOKE: That's correct.