Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-10

UNKNOWN: M'Lord, I think the part that Mr Bizos and the witness are completely at cross-purposes here with both question and answer, quite frankly.  Maybe, Mr Chairman, you could ask my learned friend to repeat his question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: So that we do not have a dialogue of the death, will you please raise your voice whenever you answer so that I can hear it in Afrikaans, please.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who was the person who put the story together, because when you have a lot of people who are going to lie, you need a co-ordinator of the lie. I'd like to know who that person was?

UNKNOWN: At which stage, M'Lord, with respect?

GEORGE BIZOS: On the Saturday, on the Saturday morning.

MR BOOYENS: The Goosen statements in other words?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes. Who was appointed to now work out a version?

MR SNYMAN: Are you referring to the current statement or what statement?  To which statement are you referring?

CHAIRPERSON: I think, Mr Bizos, just be a little more patient.

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: I know you are - you are being questioned about the original statement that you all made shortly after the death of Mr Biko.  The question is;  who was it that co-ordinated what was ultimately put in your statement?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, as I have mentioned earlier, this was done under the guidance of Col Goosen, our commanding officer.
	In fact, he told us how to draft the statements.

GEORGE BIZOS: He was not present.  Col Goosen was not present when it happened.  Please tell us how - who said what?
	First of all, who said what did happen and who suggested how the truth would be insulted by making the different version?  Who - to make an elaborate story such as this, it must have taken a long time, a lot of debate and it must have had a leader.	Let's start off with who was the person that led the pack?

MR SNYMAN: As I have already testified, your Honour, Col Goosen, the commanding officer, called us all together on that particular Saturday morning and then the statements were drafted according to a version, which in fact he gave to us.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who gave him the basic facts?  The true facts to enable him to "verdraai" - I can't think of the English word at the moment.

MR SNYMAN: I would not know.  In fact he did this and we had to draft our statements as he gave us instructions.

GEORGE BIZOS: And did he tell you not to mention in your statement that you saw Mr Biko's head hitting the wall?

MR SNYMAN: It is possible that the statements were drafted in that way.

GEORGE BIZOS: In the context in which you were working there;  of what benefit would that have been to you or to your colleagues?

CHAIRPERSON: That might have been somebody else to answer.  Mr Goosen might have an answer for that.

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Goosen might have an answer for that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Well, if it was Mr Goosen, did you tell him that it's too late for you to tell me that, because I went and put at least part of the truth in Exhibit C1 in the "voorvalle-boek"?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, he gave me the instruction to make the entry in the occurrence book, but I used my own words and my own initiative to make the entry and that is why I wrote in there that
he bumped his head.

CHAIRPERSON: That might be a convenient stage to take the adjournment, Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: As it pleases, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  We'll adjourn now and resume at 14:00
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

HAROLD SNYMAN: (Still under oath).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos?

GEORGE BIZOS: (cont)
	Thank you. This false version that was worked out,  will you please tell us the name of everyone present?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, everybody who was involved, was present.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please give us the names?

MR SNYMAN: It was myself, Daan Siebert, Niewoudt, Beneke, ... (intervention).

GEORGE BIZOS: Is that all?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, I think so.

GEORGE BIZOS: No-one else?

MR SNYMAN: There were others, but I can't remember all the names.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please try.

MR SNYMAN: I suppose it was the people who also looked after him during the night, I can't remember their names.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh, yes.  Well, were they there or were they not?

MR SNYMAN: I think they were there.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, this story that you made up required you personally to be particularly inventive in the story.  Do you agree?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, that's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: You had to make up an interrogation and the answers given by the late Mr Biko and his reaction that was supposed to have lasted the whole day?

MR SNYMAN: No, that is not correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, didn't you have to account what happened during the 6th, once you had decided to lie that the injury and incapacity of Mr Biko, started on the 7th?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, that was because of the false statements that we compiled.

GEORGE BIZOS: The question is that you showed yourself to be particularly inventive, because you were capable of making up a story of an interrogation, responses by Mr Biko and reactions by Mr Biko throughout the 6th;  something that never happened.  You made it up.

CHAIRPERSON: When you are saying "you", are you referring to him personally?

GEORGE BIZOS: Him personally, because I'm going to put to you that it was you who described what happened during the interrogation and what documents Mr Biko was confronted with and how he was - he reacted to them and how he confessed to be a terrorist and how he agreed on this, that and the other;  something that never happened. I'm putting to you that that is evidence of you being particularly inventive.  Do you agree?

MR SNYMAN: No, it never happened, your Honour, the interrogation.

GEORGE BIZOS: We know that, because you now tell us that it never happened.  The question is that you are a particularly inventive person, because you were able to fill the whole day's happenings that never happened and stand up in the witness-box and brazenly lie about what happened throughout that day, without it having happened. Is the answer to my question, yes?

MR SNYMAN: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, do you agree that you and your associates made up false affidavits, supposedly having been made by other people with which you confronted Biko during the 6th?
Do your recall that, that that was your evidence?

MR SNYMAN: It could possibly be.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, no, no, you did it.  We're not - the Committee is not interested in possibilities.  Do you recall doing it?  Do you
recall saying that you confronted Biko with signed affidavits that showed that he took part in terroristic activities?  Do you recall that or not?

MR SNYMAN: That was in any case a false statement.

GEORGE BIZOS: We know it was false. I am asking you to place on record that you admit that this is what you did?

MR SNYMAN: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, how did you manage to get false affidavits signed, which were in fact signed after Mr Biko's death?  Do you remember that?

MR SNYMAN: (No audible reply).

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you remember standing in the witness-box and saying that you confronted Mr Biko with affidavits which were produced and which were in fact dated and sworn to after Mr Biko's death and you said that these are the documents with which you confronted Mr Biko? Do you recall that?

MR SNYMAN: It's possible.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, we're not interested in possibilities.  Did you or did you not say that or do we have to take a little time and refer you specifically to passages in the record and read it out to you?

MR SNYMAN: Your Honour, I cannot remember, it's 20 years ago, I can't remember what was said.