Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-06-22

MS E Z CELE: No, he wasn't.

MS THABETHE: In the area you were staying in at Manyasene, was there any political conflict in that area?

MS E Z CELE: No, there wasn't any political conflicts or violence.

MS THABETHE: On the 25th, our should I say the 24th, you had victors at your home.  Were you present when these visitors arrived?

MS E Z CELE: Yes, I was present.

MS THABETHE: Do you remember how many visitors came to your house?

MS E Z CELE: Five of them.

MS THABETHE: Am I correct if I say it was Dudu Ngcobo, Ernest Ngcobo and three other people?

MS E Z CELE: Yes, that's correct.

MS THABETHE: Do you know why they came to visit your house on that day?

MS E Z CELE: They came to visit because my mother is a Ngcobo family, so these are her niece and nephews.  My mother is their aunt.

MS THABETHE: Are there any reasons why they came to your house, besides what you've told the Committee now?

MS E Z CELE: They came to visit because it was Xmas.  They stayed for overnight until the following day.

MS THABETHE: You have heard the evidence of the applicants with regard to these visitors and the fact that your visitors were shouting at the applicant, that they wanted Martin's arm.  Do you have any knowledge of this, or did you witness any of that?

MS E Z CELE: That is not true, they never shouted.  The only person who shouted was Dudu, who was saying the people of this area are not good and she was wondering where the arm of her brother was.

MS THABETHE: Did she direct this to anybody in particular? - to your knowledge.  Was she talking to somebody when she said this?

MS E Z CELE: No, she wasn't directing it to anyone, she didn't even mention anyone's name.  She just said "this area, these people of this area".  She didn't mention any name.

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose.  Where was she when she said this?

MS E Z CELE: At my place, outside the yard.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.
	On the 26th of December 1989, did any people from the visitors or from your home go to Thulani's house to attack?

MS E Z CELE: No, on-one.  I was with them at home, no-one went to Thulani's home.

MS THABETHE: Can you tell this Committee what happened when you were taken to the hill for questioning and eventually beaten up.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, without influencing how you are adducing your evidence, couldn't you probably start by asking her how they came to be taken to the hills?

MS THABETHE: That's what I asked, Madam Chair, I said how did it come about that they were taken up the hill.  	Can you answer that question?

MS E Z CELE: On the 26th of December in the afternoon we saw many people gathering at Thulani's place.  I think if I can estimate there were about 500 to 600.  We saw all of them coming to my place ...(intervention)

MS THABETHE: Can you take it a bit slower because the interpreters are interpreting for the Panel, so can you take it a bit slower.  Okay, you may proceed.

MS E Z CELE: They came to my place, they were armed.  They entered the yard, they took all of us.  They didn't ask us, they forcefully took all of us.
	They went with us to the hill and when we arrived there they asked us who told us that they had killed Martin, and we told them that we didn't know what they were talking about.  That's when they started beating us.  We were beaten 50 lashes, and they told us to go back home.
	We went back home ...(intervention)

MS THABETHE: Hold on.  At the hill, the applicants have testified that they asked to you to which organisation you belonged to and you said you belonged to the IFP.  Were these questions asked?

MS E Z CELE: No, they didn't ask all of us, they only asked Ernest Ngcobo, who was from Umlazi.  We were not affiliated with any political organisation, so they didn't even ask us.

MS THABETHE: Okay, you may proceed.  You said they let you go and then what happened?

MR MALAN: Sorry, what did Ernest answer?

MS E Z CELE: I don't know what Ernest said to them.  I didn't even know what they asked me.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they ask you anything at all?

MS E Z CELE: They didn't ask me anything after that.  That's when they started beating us.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it that you were asked?

MS E Z CELE: They asked me who told the people from Umlazi that they had killed Martin.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed, Ms Thabethe.
	Who was - may I interpose again.  Who was doing the questioning on behalf of this large group?

MS E Z CELE: Thulani was the one.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed, Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.
	Can you then briefly continue and tell the Committee that they let you go, and then what happened thereafter?

MS E Z CELE: We went back home.  On our way we met Tami(?).  They were with Dudu.  I don't know what they did to Dudu up in the hill.  When I was at home trying to change, because I was bleeding, they came again running, many of them.
	My sister, my elder sister came and said to us we must run and then everyone went out and ran.  I saw Lako Khumalo.  He was wearing a white T-shirt.  ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Just before you proceed, when you were changing clothes you say you were bleeding.  Who else was at your place?  Where were the people from Umlazi area, or the other people that came from outside?

MS E Z CELE: They were already gone.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MS THABETHE: You were still saying when the people came they found you at the house.  Can you continue from there?

MS E Z CELE: Lako pointed a gun at my ear.

MS THABETHE: Where were you at that time?

MS E Z CELE: I was near home.  That is where they caught me when I was trying to run away.

MS THABETHE: When they came to your house at that time, was there anybody else besides you in the house?

MS E Z CELE: They only found myself and my elder sister.  My sister ran away.  I was holding my little baby.  My sister ran away and they found me nearby.

MS THABETHE: And then what happened after they had found you?

MS E Z CELE: They started beating me with bush knives.  Lako pointed a gun at my ear and they were asking me as to where Dudu was.

MS THABETHE: What happened thereafter?

CHAIRPERSON: May I interpose.  Who was assaulting you at that stage, was it still this Lako Khumalo?

MS E Z CELE: Yes.  Another one was Roy.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that Roy Cele, one of the applicants?

MS E Z CELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and what happened to your baby at the time you were assaulted?

MS E Z CELE: I was with my baby and was still looking for another child of mine whom I didn't know where she was.  She had run away with my younger sister.  And they started asking me as to where Dudu was.  At that time Dudu had run away across the small river.  They found her there.  That's when they started beating her and throwing stones on her and the bush knives, they used bush knives as well to assault her.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you the one who pointed Dudu out to Roy Cele and Khumalo, amongst others who formed that large group?

MS E Z CELE: Yes, one could see where they were standing across the river where Dudu was.  They just asked, but they could see her.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you see, amongst others, Roy Khumalo running in the direction to where Dudu was - Roy Cele and Khumalo running towards where Dudu was across the river?

MS E Z CELE: Yes, I saw them with my eyes.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Madam Chair.
	Did you see how they killed Dudu Ngcobo?

MS E Z CELE: Yes, I saw.  They assaulted her with bush knives and they also threw stones at her.

MS THABETHE: I would like to point out to the Committee Members that earlier on the accused, Mr Thulani Cele had disputed that fact and it's even there in the indictment.  I would just like to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We have applicants here, Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Sorry, the applicant.  I'm indebted to you, Chair.  If you could bear with me, Madam Chair.