Amnesty Hearings — Ermelo — 1998-07-28

L P MBOKANE: I was on the scene when this happened and I was included in this because I was present when the incident took place.  I am in line with that because we were trying to defend ourselves.  They are the ones who started shooting.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.  No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

MS VAN DER WALT: Chairperson, I did not receive direct instructions with regard to this person's evidence but he acted under Gushu who also then gave instructions to go to Mr Masebe, my client, in Piet Retief.  If you will just allow me to ask him a few questions with regard to the instruction that he spoke of now, to go and steal weapons.
	Sir, when your legal representative led you in your evidence you said that your instruction was to go and get weapons and you once again confirmed it when the person asked you the questions now, is that correct?  Was that the instructions to go and get weapons?

L P MBOKANE: I was instructed to go and get hold of firearms at the place.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was that the only instruction that you received?

L P MBOKANE: No, not any other instruction.

MS VAN DER WALT: Sir, why do you say in your amnesty application on page 59 that you went to this place to go and get money.  You say under: State Political Objectives to be achieved
"Fund raising funds of self-defence units"
Paragraph (b), exactly the same, you went there to go and get money for the self-defence unit and not to go and get ammunition of weapons.

L P MBOKANE: We went there precisely to try and get hold of arms.  We would take money as well if we came across it because we needed money.  Our movement did not have money.  We were not getting any financial support.  Money would have been of great help so that we could take people to hospital in cases of injury etc.

MS VAN DER WALT: But it was not your instruction from Gushu to go there to get or to go and steal money?

L P MBOKANE: No, that was not the instruction, the instruction was that we should try and get hold of these firearms.

MS VAN DER WALT: And why do you not say this in your application form.  You were very careful that you did not want to fill it in yourself and you even asked someone else to do it in order for you not to make a mistake and now you make the biggest mistake because you do not say that you went there to steal weapons, why?

L P MBOKANE: I would like you to know that if one is doing something for oneself, one is sure about what one is doing but if somebody else is doing something for me, it's a different story.

MS VAN DER WALT: According to you it was then not the policy of the ANC to rob people for money, you went to go and get weapons in order to protect yourselves, is that correct?

L P MBOKANE: No, I repeat:  We went there with an aim of getting hold of firearms, not money.

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Black?

MR BLACK: I have no re-examination Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mbokane, at the time when this form was filled in, did you have any court documentation with you?  Did you have the documents setting out the charges at the time when you were tried?  Did you have it with you in prison after you had been convicted?

L P MBOKANE: No.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you still remember what you were charged with when you filled in the form?

L P MBOKANE: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you think about these charges when you filled in the form, the charges of robbery?  Did you remember that you were charged with robbery?

L P MBOKANE: Yes, I remember I was charged for that.

ADV BOSMAN: And you remembered that you were charged with the possession of ammunition.

L P MBOKANE: Yes, I do remember but I do not remember that I was charged for being found in possession of firearms.  What I remember is that I was charged for attempted robbery, attempted murder and murder.

ADV BOSMAN: So did you not think that the robbery should be mentioned in the form?

L P MBOKANE: Chairperson, may the speaker please repeat the question?

ADV BOSMAN: Did you not them remember that the robbery should also be mentioned in the form?

L P MBOKANE: A person who was assisting me had the necessary information.  I was telling him as he was filling in.  I guess he chose to fill in the information as he did.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you look what he had filled in before you signed the form or didn't you understand it?

L P MBOKANE: I did not understand this.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: This person who completed this form for you, do you know his standard of education?

L P MBOKANE: I know him to be still studying in prison.

ADV SANDI: What is he studying, if that is in any way relevant?

L P MBOKANE: I know that he is just completing his studies.

ADV SANDI: I take it that you would not perhaps be able to say what his level of proficiency is in the English language would you?

L P MBOKANE: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: What is correct.

L P MBOKANE: I'm not in the position to say how proficient he is in English.

ADV SANDI: I see that in your statement you mention that your brother was killed, when was this?

L P MBOKANE: This happened in 1985.

ADV SANDI: And when did you become a supporter of the ANC?

L P MBOKANE: In 1986.

ADV SANDI: Would the fact that your brother was killed by members of the IFP, would that have anything to do with your joining the ANC and become its supporter in 1986, a year later?

L P MBOKANE: No, I was already determined to join the ANC and I did this voluntarily, out of my volition.

ADV SANDI: Why do you mention this incident concerning your brother in your application?

L P MBOKANE: It is because I want to come up with a complete picture so that people should understand what experiences I went through, myself and my family.

ADV SANDI: You have said in your evidence you received information that members of the Black Cats were receiving training at the Giwi Breyten, at the compound you were talking about.  How long did your investigation of that take, how long did it take to investigate that?

L P MBOKANE: My investigation lasted for three days.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Mbokane.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED