Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — UNKNOWN

MR LITSEHO: Yes, I can mention them.  Our direct commander was Colonel Shaw, there was Lieutenant Cronje, Superintendent Killian, Warrant Officer Mamome, Warrant Officer Ramosoeu.

MR VISSER: Is that spelt: R-a-m-o-s-o-e-u?  Yes?

MR LITSEHO: That's the right spelling. There was a Mtyhala, he worked for a little while then he left.  He went to the church section.

ADV MEMANI: The previous witness?

MR LITSEHO: That is correct.  And it was myself.

MR VISSER: Was Mr Motsamai a member of that team?

MR LITSEHO: No, he was working under investigation, the investigation of the detainees.

MR VISSER: Alright.  Can you remember how many members in total there were at the security branch in 1987?

MR LITSEHO: I do not remember.

MR VISSER: Mr Motsamai has made application for amnesty in regard to an attack on a house of a certain Bolosha.
	Page 147, Mr Chairman, item 10. 
And he says that you were one of the people who participated in that attack.  What do you say about that?

MR LITSEHO: I do not agree with that Sir, at all.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chair, Mr Litseho, do you know Constable Ngo?

MR LITSEHO: I do not know him at all, I saw him at Bayswater at the Truth Commission.

MR STANDER: No further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

MR STANDER: I have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

ADV MEMANI: Mr Litseho, you told us that Mr Mtyhala was removed from black section to churches.  My instructions are that he was not removed from black section but just assigned to churches within black section.

MR LITSEHO: That is not so.  According to my knowledge, the churches fell under union sections. I think I worked with Mtyhala for about two months and he was transferred.

ADV MEMANI: Alright, you haven't applied for amnesty, isn't it?

MR LITSEHO: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And if these things are true you'd be in trouble, isn't it?

MR LITSEHO: I did not apply because I know my hands are clean, clean.

ADV MEMANI: Yes.  And did you have any differences with Mr Motsamai?

MR LITSEHO: Not at all Sir.

ADV MEMANI: Now, those are my questions, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR VISSER: No thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: ....[inaudible]

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman it's going a little quickly for me now, the next witness I believe that is here, is Mr Morakile.  Mr Morakile's name is spelt: M-o-r-a-k-i-l-e.
    There is an affidavit of this gentleman in your bundle B at page 102.

MR MORAKILE: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Will you bear with us a moment Mr Chairman, we're just finding an affidavit to place before this witness.  Now perhaps I can start.
	Mr Morakile, are you still attached to the South African Police Service?

MR MORAKILE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: In what section are you working now?

MR MORAKILE: I am working - I am doing special investigation within the corruption section.

MR VISSER: And what is your rank?

MR MORAKILE: I'm a detective sergeant.

MR VISSER: May I ask, through the Chair, Mr Chairman, whether Mr Brink - we haven't got a loose affidavit of the witness, It's at page 102, that Mr Brink sitting next to you can just show him the affidavit Mr Chairman?

MR VISSER: Are you being shown a document which professes to be an affidavit signed by yourself?

MR MORAKILE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you in fact sign that document?

MR MORAKILE: That is correct

MR VISSER: Do you confirm the truthfulness and the correctness of the contents of that document?

MR MORAKILE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: When did you join the South African Police?

MR MORAKILE: In 1979.

MR VISSER: And when did you join the security branch in Bloemfontein?

MR MORAKILE: June 1986.

MR VISSER: Now are you quite sure of that Mr Morakile, that you joined the security branch in Bloemfontein at June 1986?

MR MORAKILE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Where were you previous to that stationed, before you came to the security branch?

MR MORAKILE: From 1979 until 1982, I was at the border post at van Rooyen's Gate.  From 1982 to 1986 ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Just a moment, just a moment.
...[Chairperson has problems with microphone]

CHAIRPERSON: No, there are bits of his evidence there.  Could you tell me again where he was?

MR VISSER: Yes.
	Perhaps can you just repeat, where were you prior to June 1986?

MR MORAKILE: I was at the stock theft unit at Wepener.

MR VISSER: Now, what section did you come to work in in the security branch in Bloemfontein?

MR MORAKILE: I was doing investigation.

MR VISSER: Who was your commanding officer?

MR MORAKILE: Captain Du Plooy.

MR VISSER: And which other persons, if any, were also in that same section?

MR MORAKILE: I found Kopi, Mafisa and Mmelesi.  Those were the black men.

MR VISSER: Did you work with Mr Ngo?

MR MORAKILE: No, not at all.

MR VISSER: Do you know Mr Ngo at all?

MR MORAKILE: I saw Ngo for a short time, I think two, if not three weeks and he left for the college.

MR VISSER: Did you ever see him after that?

MR MORAKILE: No I never saw him thereafter.

MR VISSER: Or have anything to do with him after that?

MR MORAKILE: Not at all.

MR VISSER: Did you work with Mr Motsamai?

MR MORAKILE: Not at all.

MR VISSER: Now, Mr Motsamai has alleged that you took part in an attack and we know it was during 1985 that this happened, on a house belonging to Mrs Winnie Mandela.  What do you say about that?

MR MORAKILE: In 1985 I was not present, I was in Wepener.  I came to the security branch in 1986.

MR VISSER: And did you did you take part in the attack on the house of Mrs Mandela?

MR MORAKILE: Not at all.

MR VISSER: It is also suggested that you took part in a petrol bomb attack on the house of Nicos. What did you say about that?

MR MORAKILE: I was not present.

MR VISSER: The petrol bomb attack on the house of Bolosha. Did you take part in that?

MR MORAKILE: Not at all.

MR VISSER: Did you take part in a petrol bomb attack on a parish house in Bochabela?

MR MORAKILE: Not at all.

MR VISSER: Were you present during and incident were Oupa Makubalo was arrested?
	 I'm sorry Mr Chairman, it's items 2, 4, 10, 12 & 14 and I'm now at item 14 and all of this is Mr Motsamai.
    Were you present when Oupa Makubalo was arrested?

MR MORAKILE: Yes, I was present.

MR VISSER: Will you tell the Committee, how it came about and what you remember about that incident.

MR MORAKILE: We were on the 5th floor at Fountain on that day. We were in the kitchen, Motsamai arrived and he requested our assistance, he said he got  information that the person who killed his informer is somewhere in Bochabela.
    We got into the Kombi and we left for Bochabela, it was in the afternoon. When we arrived at Botshabela, the Kombi stopped.  Oupa Makubalo started running away, then we got out of the Kombi to chase him.  I think the second house from the corner, he got into that house.
    We jumped the fences.  I could not catch hem but Sergeant Mamome caught him and then we took him back to the office.

ADV MEMANI: Mr chairman, I'm not getting the interpretation, has anyone got the interpretation?

CHAIRPERSON: I've got the same problem.  Perhaps you could ask him to repeat. I don't think we need about driving to Bochabela, but what happened when they got to Botshabel.  If we could have it repeated a little more slowly please.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Morakile, I would ask you to perhaps speak a little more slowly so the interpreter has time to hear what you say and to interpret it.  Do you understand?

MR MORAKILE: I understand Sir.

MR VISSER: Now, you gathered, drove together with other members of the security branch in a Kombi to somewhere, is that correct?

MR MORAKILE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Where, precisely did you go?

MR MORAKILE: We were going to arrest Oupa Makubalo.