Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Kloppers, since you have applied for amnesty and recently it seems that your amnesty application would be heard, what was the top structure of the AWB's attitude towards that?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: It was positive and in the initial stages when they visited us, and when the amnesty date was moved, just before the date was moved, I resigned from the AWB and Mr Eugene Terreblanche contacted me and said if I should apply for amnesty I should say I did it upon religious convictions, the whole deed.
	Then we had the problem that the person who had been arrested, Mr Jan de Wet, while he was in hiding at Gen Oelofse's property, it was told to Gen Oelofse that he must see myself and my second in command, must be removed with the understanding that we should be killed.

ADV PRINSLOO: Why did you have to be killed?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: The problem was that we knew too much at that stage and that they knew we were going to make public some of these facts at the amnesty hearings.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Jan de Wet, is he also one of the persons who were arrested because of bomb explosions on the day of the elections and afterwards in Johannesburg?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes, Mr Jan de Wet was involved there, he was part of the Iron Guard.  I only got to know him in prison though.

ADV PRINSLOO: Mr Badenhorst, the other applicant, according to your testimony, he was promoted to the rank of Lieutenant in the Iron Guard, is that correct?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: What is the difference between the Iron Guard and the normal AWB members?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: The Iron Guard perform directly with the leadership and they are used for special options as it is planned and determined by the Generals in staff and the leader and the normal AWB members, would act as guerilla groups and would stand with the General of an area.

ADV PRINSLOO: If we begin with Mr Badenhorst, he was within this area and at any stage, did he not follow your orders or that of your colleague, Mr Martin?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No, as I said in my statement, my men were quite ready, they were well trained soldiers, they were ready for war.

ADV PRINSLOO: And the other two members, the two Visser's, Matthews and Mr Diedericks and Meiring?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I had no problems with them at all, I felt that they were prepared.  Mr Meiring offered the training as I said, none of the applicants at that stage gave me any problems, or that I should think that they would be a problem in future.

ADV PRINSLOO: And you have already testified that on this particular evening, while you were on your way to the place where you would put up the road block, you admonished some of the members?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did you participate in marches?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Every possible march that I could attend, that it would not mean that I could not go to work, that would be a problem for me, but those meetings I attended and I did some security for Gen Oelofse and for Colonel Stephanie, who is now Brigadier.

ADV PRINSLOO: These marches, were they of a military type?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Most of the marches, it was always in uniform and with weapons.  At that time, we always had weapons and I had to have the weapon where I did protection for the leaders, specifically in Potchefstroom, no I think it is Klerksdorp, when he appeared there, where I stood in my uniform with my weapon.
	It was the general situation.

ADV PRINSLOO: The military act, was this with military precision?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Absolutely and only on orders.

ADV PRINSLOO: And with discipline?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: This was one hundred percent.

ADV PRINSLOO: You also testified that there was a meeting at the Assembly Hotel in Pretoria where it was said that you handled security for Gen Oelofse?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

ADV PRINSLOO: And you also testified that the meeting there was held in secrecy?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: There was great secrecy to the extent that a General was reprimanded because he came there in his uniform.
	The General was Terreblanche, the leader's brother.

ADV PRINSLOO: Any of the members who attended there?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: No members attended the meeting.  It was only the top structure of the AWB, the Generals in staff and foreign faces that I found out from Gen Oelofse who were members of the SA Defence Force.

ADV PRINSLOO: Did the people stay the night at the  Hotel?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Yes, they did.  I was relieved and later I returned to pick up Gen Oelofse again.

ADV PRINSLOO: No further questions.

ADV PRINSLOO: .

CHAIRPERSON: Whenever you speak of a General and or Generals, and or General of staff, with the exception of Gen Viljoen that you have mentioned, you are referring to titles within the AWB?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: Mr Chairman, I just have one problem.  We are too close to each other, I can hear you speak in English and I can hear somebody speak in Afrikaans, who do I listen to.

CHAIRPERSON: You listen to the Afrikaans, because they interpret what I am saying.

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I hear you in English and Afrikaans at the same time.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, I will try to repeat the question.  Whenever you refer to somebody as a General, and also when you speak of the General of staff, with the exception of Gen Viljoen, you are referring to titles within the AWB?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I just wanted that clarification so that everybody should be clear that we are not talking about Generals within the South African Police and or the Defence Force?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Knoetze?

MR KNOETZE: May it please you Mr Chairman.  Mr Kloppers, could you comment on my client Mr Van der Schyff?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: If you want commentary on what, Martin van der Schyff's commitment was total, he was my personal guard, he was also my driver.
	His behaviour was impeccable.

MR KNOETZE: Why did you choose him, or can we deduce that you trusted him because he was your personal body guard?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I trusted him totally and in such a manner that he was the only person who knew where to pick me up.

MR KNOETZE: Would this be the same reason why he was the accompaniment for Gen Oelofse at the time when he went to the march in Vereeniging?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: We are talking about two different incidents here.  My incident was at a much later stage, but yes, why he was chosen to go to Vereeniging to accompany the General, this was because of his trustworthiness and his impeccable behaviour as a soldier.

MR KNOETZE: Can you comment on his discipline?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: He followed instructions to the point.

MR KNOETZE: On the evening of the 12th, what was your expectation of him when you gave the instruction about which you have told the Commission?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: I had no doubt in my mind that Mr Van der Schyff, that he would not follow the order precisely.  The order was that there had to be bodies and our target group was the ANC/SACP alliance persons.  Therefore I had no doubt that he would comply with the order.

MR KNOETZE: You say that despite the fact that he had to kill people, which according to the law of the country, was an offence?

PHILLIPUS CORNELIUS KLOPPERS: According to the laws of the country it was illegal to kill people, but according to me it was a guerilla war.

MR KNOETZE: About what you said at the road side cafe and that you said that the revolution would start that day?