Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1997-08-04

CHAIRPERSON: Either the interpretation is not clear or I don't hear properly.  Who killed Tulani Sebisi, are you saying that the applicant killed him or are you talking about Djamile having killed Tulani Sebisi?

MR SHANGWENI: Mr Chairperson, I was asking the witness of incidents he knows of that made Djamile kill his opponents or people he disagreed with.

CHAIRPERSON: And he says ...(intervention)

MR SHANGWENI: And he said before the Committee he was fearful of Djamile.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand but ...(inaudible) he killed Tulani ...(intervention)

MR SHANGWENI: As a result he did not report him to the police.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand but he says he killed Tulani Sebisi in my house and then he called Djamile to shoot him, did I hear that correctly?

MR SHANGWENI: That's correct Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What does that mean - he says he hit him in the house with a knopkierrie ...(intervention)

MR SHANGWENI: Not a knopkierrie Mr Chairperson, the witness said he hit him with a stick first, someone hit him with a stick first and then Djamile came later and shot Tulani Sebisi at his house.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon.  So it was somebody who hit Tulani Sebisi with a stick and then Djamile shot him.

MR SHANGWENI: That is correct.  At his house.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SHANGWENI: Mr Hlope, what do you think of Djamile now, after all that happened?

MR HLOPE: He is a real bad person and he's the reason my son is in jail now.  He influenced my son badly.

MR SHANGWENI: No further questions Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANGWENI

MR BRINK: Just wait there, wait there.

CHAIRPERSON: Just tell him to wait there.  Excuse me?  Are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

ADV DE JAGER: No.

MR DIAZ: None at all Mr Chairperson.

MR BRINK: No thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

ADV DE JAGER: But what does this have to do with politics, the fact that your son is in jail, is it related to politics of what?

MR HLOPE: Yes, I think it's got a lot of politics in it because they were members of some political organisations and they were forced to join these organisations.

ADV DE JAGER: What was Mr Djamile's position in the IFP, in Inkatha?

MR HLOPE: He was a high profile member, he was holding a very high position although I do not know as to what the position was.

ADV DE JAGER: Was he in Parliament at that stage?

MR HLOPE: He wasn't, he wasn't yet in Parliament.

ADV DE JAGER: Was he - he was not in the Kwa Zulu Natal Government at that stage?

MR HLOPE: Yes, he was.

ADV DE JAGER: What position did he have in the Government.

MR SHANGWENI: With your permission Mr Chairperson, I don't think the witness will be in a position of  ...(inaudible) but if the Honourable Commission wishes that we lead evidence to the effect that Mr Djamile was a member of IFP and a member of Kwa Zulu legislature then, then we can do that.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) won't know about the details.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, well if he doesn't know about the details he could tell me so, it's not necessary for you to tell me, I'm asking him whether he knows.  I'm asking him whether he knows what position he had and if he doesn't know, he could tell me, I don't know.

MR SHANGWENI: I will withdraw my comment then.

MR HLOPE: I've already said I do not know.

ADV SANDI: Besides the fact that you were a tenant at the premises of Mr Djamile, did you have any other relationship with Mr Djamile?

MR HLOPE: No, we were not related in any other way.

ADV SANDI: Were you a member of the same political organisation with Mr Djamile?

MR HLOPE: No, I wasn't.

ADV SANDI: Did Mr Djamile mention anything to you about his son being a member of the same political organisation with him?

MR HLOPE: No, he never mentioned anything to that effect.

ADV SANDI: Mr Djamile has never said to you your son was a member of the IFP together with him - Mr Djamile?

MR HLOPE: No, he has never told me that.

ADV SANDI: Did you know your son to be a member of the IFP?

MR HLOPE: I knew that they were in the same group as Mr Djamile but I did not know that he was a fully fledged member.

ADV SANDI: Can you explain what you mean by a fully fledged member of the IFP?

MR HLOPE: I'm explaining because he also wanted me to be a member of the IFP but at a later stage he said I was far too old.

ADV SANDI: What would the difference be between what you have called a fully fledged member of the IFP and your son or a person in the position of your son?

MR HLOPE: I think that the difference is that if you are old, you cannot involve yourself in politics.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think he understands ...(inaudible)

ADV SANDI: You may not have understood the question clearly.  What do people ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: You may continue.

ADV SANDI: Maybe there's no point to pursue the question, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, thank you very much.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR SHANGWENI: With your permission Mr Chairperson, members of the Committee, I will now call Maqnoba Abraham Hlope.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you spell that name please for the purpose of the record?

MR SHANGWENI: Maqnoba Abraham Hlope, (spelt) the brother to the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SHANGWENI: State your full names and surname please.

MR HLOPE: Maqnoba Abraham Hlope.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand Mr Hlope.  Are you prepared to take the oath?

MAQNOBA ABRAHAM HLOPE: (sworn states)

MR SHANGWENI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  For the purpose of record, please state your full name and surname please.

MR HLOPE: Maqnoba Abraham Hlope.

MR SHANGWENI: How are you related to the applicant.

MR HLOPE: He's my brother, he comes after me.

MR SHANGWENI: When you grew up, how did you relate to your brother?

CHAIRPERSON: What does that mean?

MR SHANGWENI: Mr Chairperson, I'm going to show that there was a difference in terms of their relation before Msizi was involved in his clandestine activities and after.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR SHANGWENI: I'm indebted to you, your Lordship.
How did you relate to your brother Msizi Jethro Hlope?

MR HLOPE: We grew up like any other normal - like normal people.  We had our tiffs as brothers and he got involved with Djamile at some stage but at a later stage we got on quite well.

MR SHANGWENI: During his involvement with Djamile, did you at any stage suspect him in any involvement of unlawful activities?

MR HLOPE: Yes, I did suspect because the people that he got used to were referred to as Djamile's policemen and they were far older than him and I used to ask myself as to how he got along with them.

MR SHANGWENI: Are there any incidents that made you think that ...(intervention)

MR HLOPE: No English translation.

MR SHANGWENI: What are those incidents?

INTERPRETER: The speaker did not finish the question.

MR SHANGWENI: Are there any incidents that made you think Msizi was involved in unlawful activities and what were those incidents?