Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-17

ADV SANDI: Did you say you did not get involved in the violence that was taking place between the ANC and the IFP?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: And you only got involved when you saw that it was becoming worse?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: What did you do?

MR TSHABALALA: What I did is my participating in the killing of this white man.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Sir.  And I take it that you were not a member of the ANC?  Is that correct?

MR TSHABALALA: It is not correct because I was.

MR MAPOMA: But when you were asked whether you were a member of the ANC you said you were a supporter, isn't it so?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I'm a supporter.  I don't know whether it's different in English or Zulu, but what I said is ...(intervention)

MR MAPOMA: Let me help you.  You were not a member of the ANC, but you were the supporter of the ANC.

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: You did not know the policies of the ANC did you?

MR TSHABALALA: Not every policy of the ANC.

MR MAPOMA: Were you aware that the ANC had no policy that the white man must be killed?

MR TSHABALALA: I would like the interpreter to interpret this thing for me again.  I don't understand.

MR MAPOMA: Let me put it like this.  The ANC had no policy that white men had to be killed.  Were you aware of that?

MR TSHABALALA: No, I didn't know.

MR MAPOMA: When you went to that farm, you have said that your intention of going there was to get weapons.  Do you remember that?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, that's correct.

MR MAPOMA: And you went on to say you had no intention to kill him, do you recall that as well?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, that's correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now, why did you kill him?

MR TSHABALALA: It is because he started fighting with me.  He was killed by mistake, after we realised that he was fighting.  We started killing him when we saw that he was attacking us.

MR MAPOMA: Was he armed?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, he was.   He had two iron rods in his hands.

MR MAPOMA: Are you saying he had one iron rod this side and one iron rod this side? Is that what you're saying?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, that's what I'm saying.

MR MAPOMA: Oh and were you armed?

MR TSHABALALA: We were armed with knives.

MR MAPOMA: Who had a knife, was it you?

MR TSHABALALA: The two of us.

MR MAPOMA: Each of you had a knife, is that so?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, that's correct.

MR MAPOMA: Were you the only two who were involved?

MR TSHABALALA: Three of us.

MR MAPOMA: And what did the third one have?

MR TSHABALALA: He had a pipe, that's the pipe he used to hit the white man.

MR MAPOMA: Is that Mutshiako?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, it's Mutshiako.

ADV SANDI: You said he hit him on the neck with the pipe and the deceased fell down to the ground?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, he hit him in his head.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but why did you kill him?  Why did you stab him whilst he was lying on the ground, if it was not your intention to kill him?  You had not gone there to kill him, you had gone there to get arms from him.

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.  The reason we did so, it was because we were scared that he was going to kill us if we were going to stab him, because he was fighting us.

ADV SANDI: But was he not lying on the ground when you started stabbing him?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, he fell down, but we were scared that he might wake up and shoot us.

ADV SANDI: He was lying on the ground and there were three of you.

MR TSHABALALA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: You were still scared of one man who was lying on the ground?  He had been struck with a pipe on his head and there were three of you, you were still scared of this man, why?

MR TSHABALALA: It is because we knew that he was a man with weapons.  He was a man who is always armed with guns and he was a soldier, a trained soldier, this is why we were scared of him, but our aim was not to kill him when we went there.  The reason we killed him is because he was fighting.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but he didn't have a firearm when he was lying on the ground, did he?  Did he have a firearm in his hand?

MR TSHABALALA: No, he didn't have a gun.

ADV BOSMAN: He was an old man and you were three strong men with knives.

MR TSHABALALA: He was strong.  He was a strong man.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Mapoma.  Who was supplied with firearms by this man?

MR TSHABALALA: Pilane Mutshiako knows the people he gave, or he supplied the firearms to because they were neighbours to Pilane.

ADV SANDI: When you went to attack him, how long had he been supplying IFP members with firearms?

MR TSHABALALA: I wouldn't be able to say, but when I first knew about this it was in 1989, Pilane told me that in 1989.

ADV SANDI: Did you in fact search for firearms after you had killed this man?

MR TSHABALALA: We tried but then police came.

ADV SANDI: What is the answer?  Did you in fact - you didn't search for these arms did you?

MR TSHABALALA: We did.  We did.

ADV SANDI: Where exactly did you search for arms?

MR TSHABALALA: At first we looked for the guns in his car because his car was parked outside and we didn't find and then even inside the house, we didn't find guns and police came, then we couldn't continue with our search.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: I thought in your evidence in chief you said that when police arrived, you ran into the house to hide there.  Didn't you say so?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I said so.  Police came and I ran inside the house, but it was the three of us.  The others went inside the house to look for guns and I was in the car searching for the guns.

MR MAPOMA: So it is only after the police arrived that you got into the house?  Is it not so?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I only went inside when I saw the police.

MR MAPOMA: So you never searched for weapons until the police came?  Is that what I get from you?

MR TSHABALALA: Just me, I didn't go inside the house before the police came, but my co-accused both of them, went inside the house before the police came.

MR MAPOMA: But you have just only said that you went to search for the weapons only when the police came.

MR TSHABALALA: I didn't say so.  I said I searched for the guns inside the car, my co-accused, both of them, went inside the house to look for the guns.  I only went inside the house when I saw the police approaching.

MR MAPOMA: Who searched for the guns inside the house?

MR TSHABALALA: Pilane and Mandla.  Pilane Mutshiako and Mandla Tshabalala.

MR MAPOMA: Why did you not get in and search yourself?

MR TSHABALALA: At first I went to the car because the car was there and I was searching for the guns under the seats.

MR MAPOMA: That was after you had killed this man?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, it is so.

MR MAPOMA: And that was after you had cut his body and removed his liver?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, it is so.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact after you have already put his body into the boiler.

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, it is so.

MR MAPOMA: Then it is only after that, that you decided now to go and look for these weapons that you want?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, it is so.

MR MAPOMA: And you did not get those weapons?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, we didn't get them.

MR MAPOMA: I suggest that you never went there with an information that there were weapons there because there were no weapons and there was no such information at all for that matter, what do you say to that?

MR TSHABALALA: We went there to look for weapons.

MR MAPOMA: Why did you remove the liver from the body of the deceased?

MR TSHABALALA: The dog wanted to bite us and we were scared that if we had to move, the dog was going to bite us, therefore we removed his liver in order to give it to the dog and the dog did exactly what we thought because after we gave the dog the liver, it left us alone and it started eating that liver.

ADV SANDI: Is there any other reason why you removed the liver from his body?

MR TSHABALALA: No, there isn't, this was the only reason.