bitter-aloe/trc-testimonies huggingface dataset:
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-23

BONGANI FINCA: Ms Gladys Fana,  we thank you as this Commission for coming forward all the way from Indwe.
 In summary I would like to make mention that the 
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mothers who gave birth to those young activists like your son, were in great difficulties at the time because I'm sure, most times they wouldn't understand what the struggle was all about.
 Even when listening over the radio they would get some distorted information and propaganda that would make their children to be called terrorists.
 Some other times parents of these children became the laughing stock of other people only because their children were seen as terrorists.
 When they are in pain, the people would not even come to sympathise with them because they did not want to identify with the policemen.   That is the burden that they had to carry as parents of the hero's like your son.
 Looking at you, I don't know whether I'm making a mistake, I am sure you have experienced this pain and again I, you also don't understand why your child would be arrested now and again and you even considered that your child was a criminal and yet he wasn't, he was a hero in stead.
 Therefor, we have got to give ourselves time to bring back your dignity during these few days that have been given to us by the President so that we should realise that you gave birth to hero's.
 Our proposal to the President that will be sent direct to him is that those people who used to be laughing stock then, should now benefit and be showed that they were laughed at by people who did not understand what was happening.
 So we hail you, we hail your son.  You have asked that we should investigate as to who exactly killed your son.  
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This is the request we get all over the country all the time, since that I even have some doubts that there are some that we cannot be able to give an answer to during this short period we have been given, because in Port Elizabeth Ms  Husha would like to know what happened to the husband.
 Ms Goniwa would also want to know what happened in Umtata, there are people who also want to know what happened to their beloved ones.  It is all over that people want to know who is it that they have to reconcile with and forgive and yet we are only left with only 12 months to give answers to these questions.
 I therefor would like to be very realistic and say some of the answers perhaps may not be provided, but we will try our level best as you say that this wound should be healed in a way.
 We therefor thank you for your testimony that you have presented to us today and we shall ask you to go back therefor.
 We shall stand adjourned for a short while.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-24

REV XUNDU: Now how old are your children and where do they attend school?

BONGANI FINCA: Any more questions?  Mr Gomba, we thank you for your story.
 We are going to ask that you should give us time as this Commission, to investigate mainly on the torture that you went through. 
 The investigation unit will perhaps give us more information on the torture that you were subjected to as Dr Ramashala said.  Though the detention is well known that it is a violation of human rights, according to the Act of this Commission, we have been restricted just to look into matters like murder, abduction, appearance, torture and ill-treatment.
 So we are going to ask the investigation unit to probe into the matter of your torture, so we could have a global picture and see whether your matter falls within this Act or not.
 So we thank you for your story and you are now going to work hand in hand with the investigation unit as from now.  Thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — UNKNOWN

BONGANI FINCA: Mothers and comrades, we thank you for coming to share this with us.  This event which I am sure will never be forgotten.
 And which is very painful and very emotional where you lost loved ones.  South Africa would have made a mistake, an unforgivable mistake if because of being preoccupied with other things, it would forget about people such as yourselves.
 And forget to say thank you.  And overlook the high price that you paid for the freedom of this land.
 You have made various requests here as families and you have made a request as a group.  If it was up to us, we would say here is an answer right now, but this Commission does not have the authority to respond to the request immediately.
 Our work ends after we have made recommendations to the President of the Country and it is the President of the Country in conjunction with the Cabinet who will decide what the people of Queenstown, who have lost loved ones in that Methodist Church, will be - what will be done about them.
 We will make sure that we forward your requests to the President and the answer will be obtained from him in due course and it will be forwarded back to you.
 Finally, I would like to make one last appeal.  My 
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appeal is directed to the policemen who were involved on that day.
 You said in your testimony that there were White policemen and Black policemen.  I'd like to specifically ask the Black policemen who were there that day, I hope it will not be necessary for us to investigate this matter.
 The Black policemen should be able to, especially as children of Mlungisi, be able to come to the Commission.  Even if they came to me or any of the panellists here and came to tell us who were the people who were responsible for this.
 We are not supposed to conduct an investigation and waste time where there are those who have information that can help us in finding out who was responsible for this.
 I would just like to make that appeal that those that were involved, must please come forward so that there can be peace and reconciliation among the people and among the families of the 11 people who died at Mlungisi.
 I would now like to ask you to go back to your seats, we are going to take our last witness before we conclude today's proceedings.  Thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-24

BONGANI FINCA: Mama, Mrs Kholisile, we thank you that you have told this Commission explicitly the way in which Mnyamana died.  Being told for as you say what did not actually need that he should die.
 There could have been some other means to address and sort this out without someone loosing a life.
 I have already said that those times during the times of struggle, there are certain things which happened and which are a disgrace to the struggle because if a person doesn't want to go and patrol, there could have been other means that - there are structures who could have addressed this matter, without someone having to die.
 We sympathise with you, we sympathise with your family and we assure you that this Commission is going to look into this request and attend to it.
 This Commission also has to investigate further with the structures there in Cathcart because matters of this nature should be resolved so that people should reconcile and work together in this new South Africa.
 We therefor thank you and your daughter and we shall ask you to go back to your seats.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-23

P MADOLO: My mom got very sick, so much so that she suffers from her heart, a heart complaint and my father was still working when he also got sick and he had to stop working because he is a diabetic and he has high blood pressure.

REV XUNDU: How do they survive.  Do they receive any pensions?

P MADOLO: Yes, they do receive pensions.

REV XUNDU: Thank you very much.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you Patrick for being a man and coming to represent your family in this situation and bringing your home closer to the Commission.
 I am sure that your family can see that in you there is a man, there is hope.  We have heard what you have said to the Commission and we will investigate and we have taken cognisance of the request from your family and we thank you for having had the courage to come up to us.
 We have now reached the end of today's hearings.  Tomorrow we will ask that we start at nine o'clock because 
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we will try to go home after the hearings.
 We would like to leave while it is still early and we are going to ask people here that tomorrow's cases will be mainly from Queenstown, so I will ask the people to come early, so we can start at exactly nine o'clock.
 Thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-24

UNKNOWN: Please excuse me sir.  I can't, I don't think there are any mistakes that I made.
 From 1952 I was a member of the Congress, fighting for our people, even when we were Councillors, it was for the suffering of our people, not for any financial gain.  In fact we used not to even get money as Councillors.
 And we had a great contribution, you see we are responsible for the schools around here.  People used to be waken up at night, then we intervened, we stopped that.
 Even today our sons are married, some people were even taken out of houses.  Even for the fact that this location is still where it is, it is because of us, we fought.  People would sell houses and then those houses would be demolished, so that this location could be moved from where it is at the moment. 
 People are thankful for that, so I say I have got no mistakes that I did.  If the Congress had been banned, we had to do something, so people are allowed to see it as a mistake, otherwise I do not see anything as a mistake.
 We were also arrested.

BONGANI FINCA: How many years were you a member of the Parliament?

UNKNOWN: I was a member of the Parliament for four years.  I took over from Mniataza.

BONGANI FINCA: But even then, do you feel that people had nothing against the Ciskei Government?

UNKNOWN: We had no choice sir, there was just no other QUEENSTOWN HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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road to follow.  I am through.

BONGANI FINCA: We thank you.  I just wanted to ask that question because I think in our trying that people should reconcile, there are some people who have done certain things which they now view as mistakes.
 And then they have a wish to ask for an apology and explain that they thought they did all these things out of wisdom, only to find that they were making a mistake. 
 But I think I explained well that all the things you were involved in, you were convinced that they were right.
 Let me therefore sympathise to you on the death of your daughter, Lungelwa, who died painfully from being burnt.
 We thank you for coming forward and giving us this evidence as a Commission.  The Commission is going to look into this evidence and it is going to probe into it and see what it can do if ever there is to create peace between you and the people, between you and the family you mentioned.
 We thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-23

UNKNOWN: He just sits there at home.

MS MAYA: Does he have a family?

UNKNOWN: ; No, he hasn't got, he is still my dependant.

MS MAYA: How long was he in hospital?

UNKNOWN: ; It was quite a long time in the Komani Hospital that he stayed.  I remember that one year I received a letter from him which he had written whilst he was out of hospital.
 He was in jail in Queenstown, which I don't even know where it is.

MS MAYA: ; How did that happen?

UNKNOWN: I also got confused and asked the hospital how could this happen.  I move from Molteno to the hospital and gave them the letter.  On the day I arrived at the hospital, there were policemen who came with Tanduxolo, who were taking him to the hospital to be readmitted for the second time.
 I don't know what they had noticed.

MS MAYA: ; According to what you had heard, why - for how
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long did the policemen keep him in jail?

UNKNOWN: For 6 months and then they again took him back to hospital.

MS MAYA: And then, how long did he spend - how much time did he spend in hospital?

UNKNOWN: I think he came back in 1989, I think it is three years, if I'm counting well.

MS MAYA: Yes, did you get any reply from the hospital, any explanation from the hospital?

UNKNOWN: The explanation was that he had been taken by a surgeon from Queenstown, then I asked but how did that happen, they could not tell me how it happened.
 After that I did not investigate, nor ask any further questions, because I could not get the head or tail of it.  They could not tell me exactly what had happened.  I had made means when he was in East London to ask for a rail warrant to visit my son in East London, then the Magistrate said it was available at the police station and the police station said it was available at the Magistrate's office.

MS MAYA: Was he ever arrested or Potgieter - was there any charge laid against Potgieter because of what he had done?

UNKNOWN: No, there wasn't.

MS MAYA: Is there any other additional information or you want to make a request to this Commission?

UNKNOWN: Yes, there is.  This was my hope that this son of mine would help me, therefore I would ask this Commission to make means that Potgieter should be taken to court where he is going to meet me.
 And thereafter, when I have heard how it all happened and what is the end of this, I will then request this Commission to help me because my son is still young.  He 
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could work for me if he was normal and we are a poor family.
 Perhaps the Commission could see what they can teach him or perhaps they could see what they can do for him, that is my request to this Commission.

MS MAYA: Is there still need that he should get medical treatment?

UNKNOWN: Yes, because he says the Doctor here in Queenstown said that he could never work again, such that he said that he was going to organise that he gets the disability grant, which he is getting even at the moment, now that he is out of hospital.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-22

BONGANI FINCA: Mr Nyani, we thank you for your story as presented before this Commission.
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 It is quite painful I must say, though we are laughing now but you mustn't think this is a good story, but we are just impressed by your humorous way of saying things, that is why we are laughing.
 You are just like an African man.  When you say things in the traditional court, you say it even if it is painful, you say it in a good way for the people to listen to.
 Brushing your beard as if you were playing, that is why therefor we are laughing, otherwise this is actually a very painful story.
 Certain things that were done by this Government, especially in the TBV States left people scattered all over the country.
 They made divisions in families, they left conflicts in the rural areas after people had been together for quite some time.  They have left our nation fighting and there is blood shed all over.
 In the mean time the perpetrators are enjoying it, dressed in suits, driving in black cars and eating the best food ever, but back, way back, they have left the people in great conflict, so we thank you for being brave, coming to us to tell us your story, which is very painful.
 Old as you are you don't have a home because you were misled by those unstable Government.
 We shall therefor investigate as to whether that organisation you were a member of, is still existing, because we would like to question that organisation and its leader.
 If there are any other things we would like to know from you, we shall come back to you Mr Nyani.  We thank you for your testimony you have given before this Commission, 
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when you were really harassed and as a member of this organisation.

KE NYANI: Mainly I would like to know the people who burnt down my house.  I've got completely nothing even the house where I live, doesn't look like a proper house.
 It is actually a shack that wouldn't be used by anyone.  There is no blankets, we sleep on sacks and we are then eating, it is infested by lice, so I thank  you as a Commission that you have allowed us to come and tell you about our problems and you have asserted all our sufferings as presented to you.  We thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-23

BONGANI FINCA: Boniswa Oliphant, we thank you for the story which has become somewhat familiar to us people that were living in this area during the time when we were under a very corrupt Government of the Ciskei.
 The way in which you have spoken speaks to our consciences.  When the Headmen system was imposed and the way in which this led to the killing of many people in the then Ciskei homeland.
 When we leave from here we are going to have a hearing at Bisho where we are going to be sitting especially for the things that happened during the Bisho massacre, as well as other related issues, issues related to the Bisho massacre.
 We hope that people who were in Government, soldiers, policemen who were in positions during the time of Brigadier Oupa Gqozo will come forward and give us a picture of things that happened then.
 You have already asked us to forward this question that you want to know exactly, you want to know all the details surrounding Welile's death, your husband's death.
 We sympathise with what you have told us, we thank you for it and we thank you for the courage you have shown and also the time in which your husband passed away, which must have been a very painful time for you.
 I trust that the Commission has gathered information while you were talking and also about the children who had been left behind, the Commission who will submit, make submissions to the President, I am sure that they will pursue this issue and see if anything can be done for you and your children in terms of what the President will say to this request and we would like to thank you now and ask you
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 to take up your seat once more.  Thank you very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-22

UNKNOWN: It is another man called Sekole, who is a businessman owning a shop.

BONGANI FINCA: Would you be able now to furnish us with the surname later?

UNKNOWN: Yes, if I could remember I will.

BONGANI FINCA: Are there any other questions.  Ntsikelelo Sandi?

MR SANDI: The one living in that house, you said his name is Skole.

UNKNOWN: It is Sekole, that is how I know him.

MR SANDI: Are there other people who lived in that house before or was he the one who occupied the house immediately after the eviction of the dead person?

UNKNOWN: No, it was Sekole, who occupied it immediately.

MR SANDI: Now you say Constable Vukutu is still working for the South African Defence, SAP?

UNKNOWN: Yes, it is like that.
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BONGANI FINCA: We thank you Mr Skepe for your report and I think this is an indication that those who were in office abused their powers to that extend.
 This leaves us with a question as to those people who abused their powers, do they need to be placed in responsible positions once more and what guarantee is there that they will not again abuse their powers.
 This is a great question that we are asking as a Commission.  And even those testimonies presented to us, they also have left us with this question, because this people have not been using their powers carefully.
 This makes us to think deeply about the abuse of power.  We shall now therefor, ask that you should give us more details about the person who is now presently occupying the house.  Get us the surname so that we can make a follow up of this matter in the correct way.  We therefor thank you for your bravery, we thank you for your tolerance up to this point.
 We therefore ask that you should continue doing so.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — UNKNOWN

MR SANDI: Then this White man who answered, was he the Superintendent?

M TYOBEKA: Yes.  It is the one whom he had phoned.

MR SANDI: We are now going to conclude Ms Tyobeka.  By your presence here, giving this explanation, we therefore would like to know what is your request or your instruction to this Commission?

M TYOBEKA: I'm asking this Commission to help me in as far as my health is concerned.  Because ever since I was shot, I have this bullet within me and I have not been enjoying good health.
 I have been moving from the one Doctor to the next and they say I'm suffering from arthritis.  The last Doctor I visited, I have a leg that is limping.  I even have some pains on the waist.
 The last Doctor I consulted, I asked that he should help me to get pension, sick pension, because I can't work well, even at work people are complaining that I am overloading them, so this Doctor made a recommendation and sent me for X-Ray and wrote  a letter to take to Dr Cooperwitz.
 I've been going to several Doctors as a result of this ill health.  Cooperwitz also signed and I also explained to him that this happened as as a result of the 1984 shooting.
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 Then he said that was long ago, he just wrote whatever he wrote, which I don't even know what it is.

MR SANDI: So in short Ms Tyobeka, up to now you say you are not under any relevant medical treatment?

M TYOBEKA: No, I'm not well even now.

MR SANDI: Thank you.

M TYOBEKA: Even my child, at least he recovered, he is attending school now.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-22

H VAN WYK: I think it is the fact that I myself did not sustain any injuries that it is difficult for me to fathom because you cannot feel anyone's pain physically, but there was a stage where, of remorse.  People said you are going to Port Elizabeth while my daughter has to lie in hospital.
 And I think that that touches you, you don't want that because those are people that come to you everyday.  I can give you an example about the Brody's who have come in and I think he is the oldest son and I can't remember which one of the two it was, who said to me.  Do you want to close early tonight and I said, no why?
 And they said no, we want to party a bit and I said well fine, party.  Little did we know what was waiting for us.
 And it is little things like these that you try and get out of your mind, you try and - you keep it out of your memory, but every time you think back about what could we have done?  Could we not have done anything to prevent it?
 Why did they do it?  I mean, I come in to our shop and I hug my staff.  They call me their Mama because they all give me hugs.
 Whether they're pink, blue, purple or red, it is my family and we treat each other like family.  I just cannot understand who made a mistake, why did they choose us?
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 And it is still difficult for me to understand that.  I had to send my children to my mother the whole of the December holidays.  For the whole Christmas holidays, because we had to find work again in order to send them to school the following year - small children standards 1 and 4 respectively, who couldn't understand why their parents weren't with them Christmas day.
 And it took me a little while unfortunately I tried to come to terms with it, but the last few months I just couldn't handle it any more.
 And that is why in conclusion I would like to say that I think that in everyone's hearts, we have to have the ability to forgive, but one doesn't forget.
 And I just want those people to say we are sorry.  And  I think then, although we may not be able to forget, we will be able to forgive, thank you very much.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you Ma'am.  Thank you for your evidence.  We realise that it is a very difficult situation, but we have taken cognisance and we thank you.  I am now going to give our next witness, Mr Brody a chance to give his evidence.
 And after that, a few of my colleagues might want to put a few questions to you.  So for now, I would like you to sit back and let Mr Brody give his evidence.  Thank you, very much.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-23

BONGANI FINCA: Were there clambering of some kind between these two political organisations or it was just ordinary conflict of the residents of a place over the use of camps?

VP XABA: We were also confused, but because of the organisations we were split ... (tape ends) (tape starts) ... organisations were introduced, then we were split.

BONGANI FINCA: Were you clambering over power?

VP XABA: Yes, because ADM did not want to be under the ANC and we used to say we were not actually in power, in stead we were dissatisfied about certain things.

BONGANI FINCA: Who had elected this Headman, was it the people in the location?

VP XABA: Yes, but he was taking sides.

BONGANI FINCA: Did Mthandazo have any contributions towards
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the political organisations?  Did he occupy any position in the ANC?

VP XABA: Yes, he was a member in the Youth League.

BONGANI FINCA: Was he killed because he was a member?

VP XABA: ; Yes, because he was an organiser.

BONGANI FINCA: Thank you, unless there is another question.  Ntsikelelo Sandi, do you have perhaps another question?

MR SANDI: Mr Xaba, I would like to ask you this question.  You say the organiser or the leader of the ADM was also a Headman named Kehle?  Was that in Ciskei in a place previously known as Ciskei or was it common that Headmen were members of the ADM?

VP XABA: In fact I should say the Headmen in any Government was the leading person who would handle matters first and bring them to the people.
 So the most important person was the Headmen.  But you would find that he was discriminatory, you would find that he had some people he liked and some people he disliked.

MR SANDI: Now I am referring to the time when Brigadier Gqozo used to rule in Ciskei, was there a change in such a way that the Headmen became organisers of the ADM?

VP XABA: Yes, there was.

MR SANDI: Now, do you mean that this led to the conflict between the Headmen and the residents?

VP XABA: Yes.

MR SANDI: Thank you.

BONGANI FINCA: Mr Xaba, we thank you.
 We are going to make a follow up according to the story you have given to this Commission, so that those parts that are not very clear to us, should be made clear to us.
 So people from this Commission will be visiting you as 
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means to investigate and get more information, so we do not question you because we don't understand your story, but we want to make a distinction between the conflicts of the residents and those things that used to happen long ago when we were enjoying life, before foreigners came into our country.
 And even then there used to be some problems and we want to see whether the conflict has been caused by the Apartheid that was supported by the Governments of the TVBC States.
 So this is what we want to investigate, so that when we make a proposal to the President, we should be very clear because we want to be in a position to answer all the questions that are going to be posed to us.
 I will understand that this was a very difficult time here in this area, we therefore thank you Mr Xaba.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Queenstown — 1996-07-23

MFENE SIMON YOYO: I have another request. I would like to give some message to the Africans here as we are gathering here.

REV XUNDU: Oh, please wait. Let's do it this way. You are now through with what you asked the Commission to do for you, because this Commission wanted to listen to how you were tortured and also your organisation you supported, is well known.
 Thank you. Over to you Mr Chairperson.

BONGANI FINCA: We would like to thank Revd Xundu. Should I check with my colleagues if there are any questions. Adv Denzil Potgieter.

ADV POTGIETER: Mr Yoyo, just one thing. You said to us that you were sentenced to three years imprisonment. On what charge was that? Why were you sentenced?

MFENE SIMON YOYO: I was charged for continuing with the aims of a banned organisation.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much.

BONGANI FINCA: Ntsiki Sandi.

MR SANDI: Donald Card, do you think that he is - where is his whereabouts today? Is he still with the police
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services?

MFENE SIMON YOYO: After coming back from jail, I understand that Donald Card was elected a mayor of East London. I do not know whether he is still the mayor or not.

BONGANI FINCA: Mr Yoyo, we would like to thank you. As I am looking at you, you still have very young children. As I am looking at you, you are quite an elderly person, but even though the things that you are narrating before this Commission, as I am trying to look back, it was at least 32 years back.
 But as you are now narrating to us, it is clear that you still have a vivid memory as relating the atrocities which Donald Card did against you.
 We have no doubt as a Commission that those things are still stuck in your mind, as even though they happened some 32 years ago.
 That is in fact a testimony to the effect that there are things which we may not forget, there is some people who say that we must forget the past, but it is clear that we can never forget the past.
 Those things which happened, those years, they are still in people's minds and what we think we should do is to never to forget, but to think our history alive.
 We would love to thank you dearly for your contribution as a person. We would love to thank the organisation that you stood for. Their contributions to the liberation struggle were so enormous at that particular point in time, to fight racial discrimination, we would love to salute you.
 But on the other hand we will not allow you to give a message, because that will be setting a bad precedence for us and perhaps we might find ourselves being converted into 
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sort of a rally for political organisations.
 But we thank you for the significant contributions of your organisation to the liberation struggle.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Rustenburg — 1997-05-07

CHAIRPERSON: We also welcome the students from Rustenburg College.  Could they stand up.  Welcome, we are very pleased to have our students in our following, that interest the TRC.  We also want to welcome the students from Bergsig High School.  They had just gone out for tea, but in absentia we welcome them.  We have already welcomed Rev Diana Gilbert from the Anglican Church and we also want to welcome the members of Sasco from the University of the North West.  Could they stand up too, so that we recognise them.  You will tell them that we have welcomed them.
 Now we also want to welcome Father O'Leary, an old friend of the TRC from Justice and Peace.  Thank you very much.  
 We are going to rearrange the programme again for very special reasons.  We are now going to call upon Solomon Bokaba to come forward.  I heard that Sasco students have come to support Mr Bokaba and if they have left to go for tea, why should we rearrange our programme?  Please ask them to make it snappy to come in.  
 Welcome Solomon Bokaba, I will ask you to introduce the person who has accompanied you.

SOLOMON BOKABA: They are briefers.

CHAIRPERSON: I will ask Dr Ally to swear you in.

RUSSELL ALLY: Solomon, will you please stand and raise your right hand.

SOLOMON BOKABA: (Duly sworn in, states).

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you, sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Randera.

DR RANDERA: Solomon, good morning.

SOLOMON BOKABA: Morning doctor.

DR RANDERA: Solomon, you are going to take us back to almost the last days if you like of the then President Lucas Mangope's government in Boputhatswana and we have heard some stories when we were in Mmabatho last year, Mafeking today from one student about what had happened, but you are going to give us much more information.  Before you do that, can you just tell us what you are doing now, are you married, do you have any children?

SOLOMON BOKABA: I am presently contracted as a candidate attorney with Legal Resources Centre, an organisation which offers free legal service to the needy and most indigent people in the country, and I am in my first year of contract of service for them.  I hope to be admitted as an attorney by next year, 1998.

DR RANDERA: Good.  Will you tell us what happened in 1993 to you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Rustenburg — 1997-05-07

RUSSELL ALLY: Bishop Dowling, welcome and thank you for coming to this hearing.  Could I ask you please if you would just stand and raise your right hand to take the oath.

KEVN P DOWLING: (Duly sworn in, states).

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you.  The witness is sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: Professor Piet Meiring will lead you in the discussions.

PROF MEIRING: Bishop Dowling, it is my privilege to help you to relate you story, your testimony.  Just before we start talking about what happened in March and again in November in 1991, would you just please tell us how long have you been ministering in this area?  How long have you been here when this incident happened?

KEVN P DOWLING: I am a Pretoria-boy.  I have ministered in different parts of South Africa, in the townships, Cape Town, Pretoria, but in the area where I am now, I have been ministering for six and a half years.

PROF MEIRING: Six and a half years.  Thank you ever so much.  Please tell us what happened on those different occasions.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Rustenburg — 1997-05-07

CHAIRPERSON: Bishop Dowling, thank you very much for this wonderful submission.  I hope you didn't feel that you were being grilled by my colleagues this morning.  I would just like to thank you most sincerely for all the help that you did, to quote you, "for the little people" in your area and for providing the premises of St. Joseph for their meetings.  I think in your support for them, you may not be aware that you were also empowering them to take up the struggle and be determined to go through it and be where we are now and be part of this new democracy that is still so alien and which will need the church, the contribution of the church, that we were so grateful for in the past, that we will still need now in this new process of reconciliation.
 I am very grateful for you honesty about the difficulties and problems of reconciliation, which is not just an easy thing and we hope that those people who have not applied for amnesty, will come forward and do so and sort of alleviate the harm that they have done to the victims in the past.  
 We are very much aware of the contribution the church, and especially the clergy, have made in the past, and are mindful of people like Bishop Hurley, who is retired now in Durban, of Beyers Naude and our own chairperson, Archbishop Desmund Tutu.  In order for us to uphold the vision that they had, the church, I think  still needs to move forward and take over where the leadership is finding problems.  Thank you very much for coming.

KEVN P DOWLING: Thank you Commissioners.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We shall now break for lunch, but because we are behind time, we will come back at three o'clock.
HEARING ADJOURNS
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Rustenburg — 1997-05-07

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Makgala, we thank you very much for giving us the whole story of what has happened to you.  Your problems started in 1963, you were arrested in 1988.  It is about 34 years.  We see that you are still emotionally affected.  It is difficult to forget what happened to you, but we hope that we are now in the new democratic government those scars would be healed.
 We thank you for coming to share your story with us.  You will hear from us, later.  Thank you very much.  Thank you Sir.
 Before we call the next witness, I shall ask those who do not have earphones to try and get them now, so that you can follow the proceedings in Tswana.  Channel three is Tswana and channel two is English. 
____________________________________________
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Rustenburg — 1997-05-07

CHAIRPERSON: Those who want to go outside at that door, they will meet Mr Lebohan, who will show them where they will take their statements.  People who haven't handed over their statements in the Rustenburg area, those people will be taking statements from you.  Whoever wants to make a statement must go out.  Lebohan, our Committee liaison officer, will be waiting for them there.
 Now we call upon Louisa Malebo.  Hello Louisa.  Can you hear me?

LOUISA MALEBO: Yes, I can.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is with you today?  Are you alone?

LOUISA MALEBO: I am with my cousin.

CHAIRPERSON: We welcome you here.  I will ask Dr Ally to administer the oath.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you.  Louisa, will you please stand and raise your right hand.

LOUISA MALEBO: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Piet Meiring is the one who is going to ask you questions.

PROF MEIRING: Mrs Malebo, welcome from my side too.  We are going to talk about that months after the coup, the failed coup in 1988.  It was in February 1988 that there was this coup which failed.  We've heard a lot about that, but some months later on the 31st of May, things started to happen with you.  You were then the secretary of the People's Progressive Party in Phokeng.  Please tell us what happened with you that day and the days following upon that.

CHAIRPERSON: Louisa, we know it is very difficult to tell your story.  Please take your time and try to tell us your story from 1988.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Rustenburg — 1997-05-07

CHAIRPERSON: Louisa we thank you.  We gave you much time.  We see that you are now tired.  I believe that you are aware that all those questions, we should ask them.  We thank you for coming.  We know that you come from many problems.  You went into many prisons, you were put in solitary confinement.  We thank you that you had determination and together with the Bophokeng people, that you will one day get liberation for the all of South Africa.  We thank you for the part you played in the struggle.

LOUISA MALEBO: Thank you, ma'am.

CHAIRPERSON: We are going to have a tea break.  It is now five to twelve and if we can come back at about quarter past twelve and I will ask that when we go out, those who have earphones can put them on their
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Rustenburg — 1997-05-07

CHAIRPERSON: Welcome Priscilla.  Would you please stand up to do the oath.

PRISCILLA MOJE: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Russel Ally will lead the testimony.

RUSSELL ALLY: Good afternoon and welcome to you, Priscilla.  You are coming to speak about your experiences in 1988, your detention by the then Boputhatswana Government, your interrogation, then also torture that you experienced.  So please, will you give us an account of these events.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Rustenburg — 1997-05-07

CHAIRPERSON: Is she there?  Well, it is written .....  Is Mrs Tukubong present?  If she is not there, we will ask Phillimon Maledu to come forward please.  Is Hellen Moteane present?  We will ask you to stand up to take an oath.

HELLEN MOTEANE: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: We will ask Dr Ally to lead you in your testimony.

RUSSELL ALLY: Good afternoon to you, Hellen, and welcome.  Are you accompanied by somebody?  Is that a briefer?

HELLEN MOTEANE: No Sir.

RUSSELL ALLY: Hellen, you are also coming to speak about your experiences while detained by the Security Branch of the former Boputhatswana Government, detention, interrogation and torture and also about the activities which led to that, your involvement in the Baphokeng women's club and also your involvement in the Progressive People's Party.  So if you would just relate to us, these events.  Please.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Rustenburg — 1997-05-07

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Aletta for coming.  We know that you work.  You have asked for a day off so that you can come and present your story to us.  Please try by all means to get those papers or records from the doctor so that we, on the other hand, could try and help you.  We thank you.

ALETTA RAMOSEPELE: I also thank you.
_______________________________
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-07

DR BORAINE: Good morning Mr Ntsoereng and also to your 
daughter we are very glad that you have somebody from your 
own family who is with you and I hope that you are going to 
feel relaxed.  It's not easy to sit where you are.  You are 
the first today and that's even more difficult because the 
day is still young and it hasn't really started, but you 
will start by telling your own story.  I want you to know 
that this is not a court of law.  We are not here to 
interrogate you.  We want to help you to tell your story.  
Now I'd like you to start with the 3rd of September 1984 
where there was a meeting at the administration offices to 
talk about electricity and then to take us through your 
story and I will try not to interrupt unless there is some 
question that I might want to ask.  Will you start now 
please.

MR NTSOERENG: There was a meeting, the meeting was with 
regard to electricity.  It was three weeks before the 3rd of 
September.  The meeting was held at Zone 13.  As the 
residents of Zone 13 we were actually their representatives 
and Zone 13 was behind with their payments and it was the 
first one to pay R8,50 when other locations were still 
paying a relatively low fee.  When we got to the Council 
they explained to us that it was difficult for Zone 13 to 
obtain electricity if they did not increase the money that 
we had to pay and we were behind in arrears.  The residents 
accepted this explanation.  At this meeting it was myself, 
HRV/1046 Mrs Musala/...
2
Mrs Musala as well as Mrs Dhlamini when we explained to the 
residents and the residents accepted the explanation.  Can I 
go on?

DR BORAINE: Yes please do go on.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-06

COMMISSIONER: While Mrs Kheswa is coming forward I would like to welcome a few individuals ... Kheswa.  He has already been talked, his name has been mentioned several times today already.  But you are going to talk as a mother who has lost a son and perhaps also talk about some of the things that he is accused of.  Before I hand over to Dr Russell Ali who is going to be helping you in telling your story, can you please stand to take the oath.

MRS EMMA KHESWA: (s.s.)

DR ALI: Good morning Mrs Kheswa. You are going to testify in Southern Sotho.  Is that correct?

MRS EMMA KHESWA: I am going to testify in Sotho and you can hear me clearly.  I am listening to you clearly sir.

DR ALI: Thanks Mrs Kheswa.  You are coming to speak to us about your son Victor and what happened to him.  I am going to ask you now to go through your statement for the Commission.  Thank you.

MRS EMMA KHESWA: Can I continue, sir?

DR ALI: Yes Mrs Kheswa.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-07

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mofekeng once again may I say thank you ever so much that you came to us, that you presented us today with your testimony.  Your testimony also is very valuable to us to help piece together the whole picture of what happened in Vaal Triangle in those difficult years.  I am under the impression of the suffering not only from the community but the suffering from the councillors' side, the pain and the anguish the families must have gone through, when you talked about your father's house that was also burnt, about your children, we have very much sympathy with you, not only the loss of property but the danger that you lived in.  And I do hope, I really hope that the time will come soon that you will be able to go back to your place to
HRV/1048 rebuild/...
11
rebuild it and to find your place again in your community.  Thanks for coming again and I wish you well.  You may leave the podium, thank you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-08

MICHAEL MKHIWANE: (sworn states)

MRS SEROKE: This witness Michael Mkhiwane is going to be led by Tom Montata. Thank you.

MR MONTATA: I greet you all, fathers and mothers of the Nation as well as the children of Sebokeng, we are with you.
(no interpretation here, but presumably the witness is asked what happened  in September 1984)
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-07

CHAIRPERSON: Sibongile, thank you very much, we've listened to that, we've noted that.  I think, friends, ladies and gentlemen, this will be a very difficult afternoon for all of us.  It will be a harrowing experience to all of us to listen to one testimony after another about what happened on that fateful day, that night at Boipatong, thank you for telling us the first story and we pain with you. It must be very difficult losing your father and your mother.
 I was thinking about the children, especially your younger brother, you say, who's not doing well at school. Maybe at some stage you should approach the Truth Commission about special help for the brothers and sisters who need that special help. We do plan to have a support system in place to make recommendations about that to help the children who suffered most in the time of struggle but Sibongile, thank you very much. Thank you also for coming to us, the two of you. May the Lord give you peace and may you prosper in future.  Thank you for being with us. You may leave your table now.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1994-08-05

COMMISSIONER: ... in Amanzimtoti in 1985.  She lives in the Vaal and we therefore felt it was important to give her the opportunity to come and talk about what happened to her on that day.  Good afternoon to you.

MRS HLUPHEKILE NKABINDE: Good afternoon, sir.

COMMISSIONER: I see you have brought somebody with you.  Can you please introduce him to us.

MRS HLUPHEKILE NKABINDE: This is my son.

COMMISSIONER: I welcome him too.

MRS HLUPHEKILE NKABINDE: Thank you, sir.

COMMISSIONER: Mrs Nkabinde, before I ask Professor Meiring to take over, he is going to be helping you in telling your story, will you please stand to take the oath.

MRS HLUPHEKILE NKABINDE: (s.s.)

COMMISSIONER: Mrs Nkabinde.   Professor Meiring.  Mrs Nkabinde, you may sit down.

PROF MEIRING: Mrs Nkabinde, you are going to take us far from Sebokeng, you are going to take us to the Natal South Coast, just south of Durban where Amanzimtoti is.  Will you please tell us in your own words what happened on that fateful day and then afterwards I would love to ask you a number of questions.  But over to you.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-06

MR ERNEST SOTSU: Good morning.  I prefer to express myself in English.

COMMISSIONER: Mr Sotsu I see you have brought two young people with you.  Can you please introduce them to us so we can welcome them as well.

MR ERNEST SOTSU: On the extreme right is Vuyane, my grandson.  Next to him is Vuse who is a younger brother to him.  Also my grandson.

COMMISSIONER: Thank you Mr Sotsu.  I welcome both Vuyane and Vuse.  Welcome to them.  Mr Sotsu we are going to April, sorry 3rd July 1991.  You are going to tell us about a tragic even that took place in your life and for this community and for this nation.  You have the time to speak in your own words freely and my colleagues and myself afterwards I am going to be leading any questions that may come out of your statement but my colleagues will also want to pose questions to you.  So I give you the time now.  Mr Sotsu one more thing.  I am being a bit sleepy this morning.  Will you just stand to take the oath.
Human Rights Violation Hearings — Sebokeng — 1996-08-06

IVY MSIMANGA: He left a child of about six years.  I would just ask the Commission to assist me to raise this child and HRV/222 this/...
6
this child is so sickly.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Ivy.  We really feel bad about what happened to you by the death of Michael.  As a Truth Commission the mandate we have is to investigate the gross violations that happened as a result of politics.  We will refer your case to the Investigation Unit.  It will further investigate as to why Michael was killed and we will do our best to find out if he was a victim or not.  We thank you for everything that you have said here today. We will try our level best to see that we do investigate further and find out all the reasons why he was killed.  Thank you.