Amnesty Hearings — Mabopane — 1998-08-06

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.  I'd like to start by introducing the panel that will be presiding over this matter.  On my far left is Advocate Bosman, she is from the Cape.  On my immediate left is Advocate Motata, he is from Johannesburg.  On my right is Advocate Sigodi, who is from Port Elizabeth and I am Selwyn Miller, a Judge from the Transkei.
	I'd like to ask the legal representatives please to place themselves on record.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'm Eric van den Berg, together with my colleague, Kabelo Lengane from the firm Bell, Dewar and Hall.  We act on behalf of all four applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van den Berg.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  J M Mpshe for the Truth Commission Amnesty Committee in particular.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe.  Mr van den Berg, the documentation that we have is contained in this bundle.  I notice from the documentation that the application forms, or at least three of the four have been signed before a Commissioner.  I don't know, sometimes we get it that these are merely typed copies and the originals are elsewhere, do you know whether they have in fact been signed before a Commissioner of Oaths?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairman, I'm instructed that they were signed.  I can lead each individual applicant on that aspect, perhaps just to make doubly sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van den Berg.  Also Mr van den Berg, I notice from the applications that they only deal specifically with two incidents, one relating to an incident with a Casspir and the other one relating to the incident involving Brigadier Molope but in addition there's mention about other incidents in Annexure A.  I take it that we are not concerned with those other incidents, they will be dealt with at another hearing, is that correct?

MR VAN DEN BERG: That is as I understand the position Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, perhaps before ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before we start, I would just like to inform the people that the proceedings are translated.  If you want to hear the proceedings in your language then you should be in possession of one of these instruments.
CHAIRPERSON EXPLAINS TRANSLATION EQUIPMENT

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Just to add on the Chair's concern about other matters mentioned in the application.  It is indeed so, this Committee is not to deal with those matters, particularly on the paginated page 3 where it is mentioned
"Operation One"
It does not concern us.  
	Page 2 as well as page 16.  The applicants refer to information of the court cases, just to inform the Chair and the Committee Members that these applicants in this matter were never charged.  They are referring to other matters wherein they were charged.
	Mr Chairman, the victim in this matter is available, the wife of the deceased, Mrs Molope and the daughter to her left.  They are here.  Unfortunately they are not legally represented.  I have just spoken to her and she did not fully understand the whole form as it was given to her by the local police who served it on her but I've just explained everything to her and if she does not need a lawyer at this juncture, I am available to assist her and she is agreeable to that, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe.  So you will then be representing the victims as it were.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.   Do you need time to consult?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I have consulted with her.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe.
	Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman.  As I explained earlier, we act on behalf of all four applicants and that we are dealing with a particular matter which took place in the course of 1986.  I'd like to commence by calling the commander of the unit which was responsible for the incident and that is Jabu Obet Masina.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 13 of the papers?

MR VAN DEN BERG: That is correct Mr Chairman, thank you.  The applicant will testify in Zulu, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

JABU OBET MASINA: (sworn states)

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairman, I am advised that there is not a Zulu interpreter available.  I'll have to ascertain from Mr Masina if he is comfortable in another language.
	Mr Masina, other than Zulu?

JABU OBET MASINA: I have a problem with Sotho but I will try by all means.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure that you are comfortable speaking Tswana Mr Masina, otherwise we could perhaps maybe lead the evidence of another applicant who is comfortable with Tswana and in the interim try to secure a interpreter in Zulu, but I don't want to interfere with Mr van den Berg's presentation of the matter.  I just raise that as a possibility.

JABU OBET MASINA: The applicant is prepared to converse in Xhosa.  We will interpret in Xhosa and then he will respond in Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: If there is any problem that arises, please don't hesitate to inform us.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Masina, is it correct that you were born on the 26th of December 1950 in Western Native township, which is a township adjoining Sofa Town?

JABU OBET MASINA: That is correct Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: At a point in your schooling you decided that you would go and seek employment.  During that time you were a victim of a criminal attack and you decided that you would return to school, is that correct?

JABU OBET MASINA: That's correct Sir.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Could you indicate to the panel when that occurred, which year was that?

JABU OBET MASINA: This happened round abut 1974 when I sustained these injuries, and because of these injuries or this attack, I decided to go back to school.

MR VAN DEN BERG: How did it come that you became involved in the African National Congress and you came to be a member of Umkhonto weSizwe?

JABU OBET MASINA: I did this because I realised that there was no progress in South Africa because I went back to school with the intention to improve my situation, but when during the June 1976 uprising I realised that the situation here in South Africa was not conducive and I then decided to leave for other countries.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I'm sorry for the interruption, I've realised that there is no interpretation into Tswana and the victims are Tswana.  I just don't know what is happening.  I will just sort it out quickly Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you need a short adjournment Mr  Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Please Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you need a short adjournment Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, please Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry for this but we've got a bit of a difficulty with the interpretation and we will just take a short adjournment to enable that problem to be sorted out.  If you can let us know as soon as we're ready and then we can start again.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: We are indebted to the Chair and the Committee for the indulgence.  We have everything in place now, the second booth has been set up and we are sure to kick off.  Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mpshe.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, another things I nearly forgot, as I indicated to the Committee Members that there's a feeling amongst the children of the deceased that they would like to put questions to each and every applicant but I've indicated that we can only allow one to do that.  They have chosen one who is going to do that, and at the end she will again be the one who is going to take the stand to say something on behalf of the family.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly, thank you Mr Mpshe.
	Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairman.
	Mr Masina, when you were testifying prior to the break, you had advised the Committee that you had come to a decision in terms of which you had decided to leave the country ...[intervention]