Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-10-19

MS MADONDO: Yes, I do see that.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you have any comment?

MS MADONDO: No.

MS VAN DER WALT: What is missing now?  (Transcriber's translation  -  What is correct?)

MS SAMUEL: If I may just come in?  Ma'am it seems like when you looked at this you just saw this for the first time.  Do you confirm this or what you told the Commission that you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Sir, but you'll get an opportunity to re-examine.

MS SAMUEL: Thank you.

MS VAN DER WALT: What is your comment on that because it is clear that what you have said here is not exactly the same as what you are saying under oath today?

MS MADONDO: I think it was a mistake what is written here because I think when they were taking the statement, I was together with his girlfriend, because I had requested his girlfriend to accompany me, so we were making the statement together, or they were taking the statement from both of us.

MS VAN DER WALT: When was that?

MS MADONDO: Last year, somewhere in June, July, wintertime.

MS VAN DER WALT: I would like to put it to you that there is a statement here saying that this woman, Kunene, was she the fiancee of your brother?  I am posing the question to you.  Was Kunene the girlfriend of your brother?

MS MADONDO: Yes, she was.  It is true.

MS VAN DER WALT: This statement was done on the 25th of March 1998 and it was done..

INTERPRETER: My apologies, I missed that.

MS VAN DER WALT: So your explanation is not clear.

CHAIRPERSON: The previous question about you couldn't follow the dates, could you just repeat those dates please?

MS VAN DER WALT: The dates ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Your microphone is not switched on.

MS VAN DER WALT: The dates on which the statement was made by the lady Kunene, was 25 March 1988 and the date on which this statement was made to which I refer, was made on 18 May 1998.  What I'm putting to her is that the explanation as to what she's giving in her evidence is not correct according to what she has said under oath.  Does she have any comment on that?  No comment?  Do you want to comment on that Madam?  I do not know whether you hear the translation, there's no reaction.

MS MADONDO: Are you referring to the affidavit which I made in the police station?  That's different.  There's one which I've made in the police station and there's another one which I've made for the Truth Commission and that's why the dates aren't the same.

MR LAX: Ms Samuel, can you not keep showing her, because all you're doing is confusing her.  Okay?

MS SAMUEL: Thank you.

MR LAX: Mama, can you just listen to the questions?  Stop looking at the papers.  Just listen to the question.  It's really a simple matter.  You said to us in your testimony that Ms Kunene was with you when you made this statement and they took a statement from both of you at the same time.  Now what Adv van der Walt is putting to you is that your statement which appears at page 104, which you have been referred to, was signed on the 18th of May 1998.  What she's also saying to you is that Ms Kunene's statement, which appears at page 107 was signed on the 25th of March 1998.  The one was signed at Orlando police station and the other one was signed before a Commissioner of Oaths, it's not clear, in Johannesburg somewhere and what she's therefore saying to you, that arising from that is that you couldn't have made the statements together.

MS SAMUEL: That's what she's ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just listen to my question, Ms Samuel.  Please, just hold it.  I'm trying to explain to the witness so that she can get a clear understanding.  Do you understand the question?  She's saying because of the two dates being different, you could not have made these two statements at the same time and she's therefore asking you to comment on that, do you understand?

MS MADONDO: Yes I do understand.

MR LAX: Okay.

MS MADONDO: After I've inquired about Nunke about Sipho Twala and Gen Nyanda, I was told that they were ANC members, that's why I'm saying today they were ANC members,  since the time they were hiding because they were MK members.

MR LAX: The question is really - you haven't answered the question.  Okay.  All you're being asked to explain, why you said that Kunene made a statement with you, together with you in May 1998 when in fact her statement which appears in these papers, is dated in March 1998.  Have I put it correctly?

MS VAN DER WALT: I would just like to come back to that.  Page 110, on that page there is a statement made on 18/5 by Ms Kunene.  There are two statements which also were made before the Committee.  I refer you to page 110.  I am making a note of that now.

MR LAX: 110?

MS VAN DER WALT: 110, yes.

MR LAX: Okay, sorry, mine is numbered 109, it starts at.

MS VAN DER WALT: That is where it starts, yes.  I just have to put it to you that there was another statement made by Kunene on the same day, before the Committee and another one, the first one before the police, so in other words were you present when Kunene made the other statement, the one on page 109 and 110?  Were you in each other's presence when that was done?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think she's already testified that at some stage they were both present, so it seems as though they were in each other's presence on the 18th of May 1998.

MS VAN DER WALT: You have a version here before the Committee that your brother got lost on his way between Kliptown and Potchefstroom, when did that happen?

MS MADONDO: It was in 1979, between October and November but late 79.  That's when he disappeared.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then after that you never saw him again?

MS MADONDO: No, I didn't.

MS VAN DER WALT: You personally haven't witnessed this, but lately you saw his car outside the Protea police station, is that true?

MS MADONDO: Yes, that's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And how did you know it was his vehicle?

MS MADONDO: I knew his car.  I used to ride in his car.  It was his car.

MS VAN DER WALT: Would you just afford me a moment please?  Thank you.  You say that you saw the car and you also said in your statement, the same registration number that you mention in your evidence here, that you knew the car because the number started with BZK, is that correct?  But that could not be in 1979, these numbers came into use later only.  Is that correct?  So this incident that you speak of, did it happen later?

MS MADONDO: No.  No it wasn't later.

MS VAN DER WALT: But something must be wrong, because then this could not be the right registration number.  Is that correct?  If this is the registration number, then this could not have taken place in 1979, is that correct?  Are you in agreement?

MS MADONDO: I don't know.  I'm not sure whether it was TJ, but what I'm certain of, the numbers were like I said, I don't know whether they were still using TJ in 1979.

MS VAN DER WALT: I want to refer you to page 132 of the bundle.  Your brother's name was Oupa Madondo, is that correct?  Can you remember when he was born?

MS MADONDO: 20 May 1948.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you look at page 134, then you see the computer printout where your bother's date of birth is correct there.  Do you see that?

MS MADONDO: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: No translation.  (Transcriber's translation - Can you remember which school he attended?)
I see you are looking at page 134 and it says Musi High School, is that correct?

MS MADONDO: Yes, it's in Pimville.

MS VAN DER WALT: Yes and on page 135 it was recorded that he was a lorry driver from 1968, is that correct?

MS MADONDO: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: It also appears from your affidavit that he was a driver working for your mother apparently, is that correct?

MS MADONDO: Yes, that's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And your brother left the country for military training, is that correct?

MS MADONDO: Yes.