Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-07

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Okay, to answer that I want to pose also a question, because he said it was not highly politicised.  By whom, because at that time, there were no politics where we were saying people have to join this particular organisation, each and every organisation was free because at that time, we had been having bilateral meetings with the PAC, how to operate at the area, because at that time Jeffery Nongwe, in 1990 and 1991, there was a burning of houses of Unathi Section where the incident occurred.
	When we have been having talks to have peace, we have been doing those talks in conjunction with the PAC leadership in the area, we even called the Regional structure of the PAC, they were present, also the ANC.
	At that time it was the Chairperson of the PAC, it was Mr Lagunya.  There was no confrontation at that time between the ANC and the PAC, there were good relationships at that time between both organisations.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that answer your question?

MS GOSO: I need to take it a step further.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS GOSO: Mr Elese, all I am trying to find out in my question is, if in your view there wasn't a lot of political activity in the community at the time.  What I am getting at is even on a question of housing, around that, there would be a lot of political activity.
	I am also trying to say to you the fact that you had a member of the ANC defecting, that in itself would give rise to a - I mean that is political in content and context, that in itself is political.
	What I am trying to bring to you, is to say in fact this housing issue itself, was surrounded by a lot of politics, because the community itself at that time, was highly politicised, there was a lot of political activity.

DEPOUTCH ELESE: I will disagree because at that time the organisation members, when we were discussing the whole thing in Branch level.  All branches of the ANC in the area, when something is still an internal thing, and you have your own view and the other one is having his own view, there was no fight between the ANC and the ANC, but there was different views within the leadership positions.
	The whole incident, it was not deeply politicised and around the township, it was not politicised at that time, because of Mr Jeffery Nongwe, who was a power monger, who want to control everything, then he see himself that he wants to enrich himself by this development, because those people who are saying they need from a shack to a house, now they are coming with a view that they are saying we need to come up from a shack to a house, and he want people to go from a shack to a shack only a Site and Service, because the CPA was championing that thing, people have to move from a shack to a shack and then because of he was given something behind closed doors, and then he wants everybody to agree on that.
	That is why even the Goldstone Commission features before the whole incident, went to investigate thoroughly, we need an outside body to investigate, that is why the ANC brought even to its members to be investigated by the Goldstone Commission.  That is why the finding was that it is only a power monger which was done by Jeffery Nongwe, not to involve other political organisations, but internal thing.
	That is why at the end of the day Jeffery Nongwe, on that same year, he was expelled from the organisation because his attitude and the way he was dealing with the things, and he doesn't follow the policies of the organisation.

MS GOSO: Look Mr Elese, you yourself, you are a political leader in your own community, housing itself is a very important political issue, politicians base their election ...[indistinct] on housing, so how can you be so certain that this particular incident and at that time, was not politically charged at all, because even as you are giving evidence, you keep on touching on political issues, political atmosphere?
	Don't you think that there was a political content, this whole incident was politically charged in some way?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: No, I cannot say it was a political thing.  If you are within the organisation and you have a right to differ from one person to another, but it doesn't say the same structure, if I differ from one person to another, I have to go and hire people to assassinate the group which is differ from me.  I can make an example.
	When the President of this country, he was at a conference of the South African Communist Party although  having ...[indistinct] membership, he differ when around the gear, the Communist Party was putting their line and he stood up and slashed it, but he never take arms and said if you are differ from me, I will make it a point, I am going to assassinate you because you are differing from me.
	That point doesn't feature, if you differ from one organisation, you differ in views, but it doesn't say you have to kill those who are differ from you.

MS GOSO: It doesn't say but that is something that happens often within the political atmosphere, isn't it?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: But at this instance, it is a different situation.

MS GOSO: In your evidence you keep on referring to hiring assassins to carry out this operation.  Do you have any evidence that they were hired?  Apart from your sources, is there any evidence that the Committee can rely on that these were hired assassins?

DEPOUTCH ELESE: Yes, there are people whom we can call to come and testify here.  And also we can get the information through the police, because it was them who were investigating, who was doing the overall thing.  They will tell us that the incident was not a politically motivated thing, but it was only a pure criminality.

MS GOSO: We are going to have a political organisation here which is going to own up and say that the applicant was a member of the organisation, a member of their Task Force.  They have written a letter to the Investigation Unit of the TRC to say that this was their member, and this member was, he was part of their Task Force. 	Would you against the political organisation when they say that?