Amnesty Hearings — Kroonstad — UNKNOWN

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: We wanted to have the African NationalCongress and we wanted the community to be free, to have a freepolitical activity in Maokeng.   Because everything that was happeningin Maokeng was prohibiting ANC in its activities and the ANC couldn'tcanvass for support for Maokeng.  Now everything that was happeningin Maokeng Township prohibited the ANC to exist.  We couldn'twork properly as the ANC.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Are you saying that that was also the politicalmotivation?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: That is true, Sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Did you benefit financially yourself asa result of this killing, did you benefit anything financially?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, I never got any financial assistanceor any financial help.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Another question which you did not complete,asks you whether what you did was the result of any instructionsfrom any person?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: That is true, Sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You didn't answer that question.  Can younow tell us whether you got instructions from anybody to do whatyou did, and if so, who that person is?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: The person is Mr Petrus Matshabetulo(?).

JUDGE MGOEPE: When did he give you such instructions?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I can't remember the month, but wegot orders.  It was in 1990 in December or November.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What was the nature of the instructions?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: The orders were like this. Seeingthat you are the members of the SDU you are there to protect thecommunity and to protect your lives.  Now by all means possibleit is your right to protect the Maokeng community so that theycan live peacefully.

JUDGE MGOEPE: If necessary, to kill.  Did you understandinstructions as saying that if necessary, in order to protectthe community, you could kill the enemy, or whoever you thoughtwas the enemy?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, that's true, Sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What sentence are you serving now?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: It is nine years.

JUDGE MGOEPE: That is as far as your application formgoes which was not fully completed.  Let us turn to the deceased. You have told us that he was a Municipal Policeman, am I right?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What was the nature of the function of theMunicipal Police?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I don't want to commit myself.  Idon't know the nature of their work actually.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Were they in uniform on duty?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Were they armed while on duty?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Yes.  I can say they used to carryguns.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Do you think those guns were weapons thathad officially been issued to them in their capacity as policemen?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, I don't have any knowledge ofthat kind of information whether they were given those guns officiallybecause they were police.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Did they carry handcuffs as well?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: No, I've never seen them carryinghandcuffs.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Could they arrest a person if they saw aperson committing an offence?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I don't know.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What is it that you know about them?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I knew them as people wearing greenuniform and the one thing that I know is that they would go arounddestroying other people's liquor around.  They would go into thehouses and destroy the liquor at shebeens.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Are you aware of the seriousness of yoursituation, the situation in which you are?  Do you realise theimportance of this application?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I realise the seriousness, Sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What in your mind did you think was thefunction of the Municipal Police?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I don't understand your question.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What in your mind did you think was theduty or function of the Municipal Police?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Because they were wearing uniformI would perceive them as police because they were also carryingguns just like the SAP.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Gubuwe, I am trying to, as far as possible,to assist you the fullest opportunity to present your case.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I am listening to you, Sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I am going to ask you again.  Did you thinkthat their duty was to sweep the streets or clean the windowsin the townships, or what did you think was their function?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Sir, to tell you the truth, I didn'tknow their function.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Why do you call them policemen?  Why doyou call them Municipal Policemen?  Why don't you call them municipalcleaners?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: They were called Municipal Police.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And you say to us you don't know as to whetheror not they could arrest a person if he committed an offence.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: That one I cannot elaborate.  If itwas their duty to arrest a person they were entitled to, but Idon't want to say anything about the arrests they were supposedto make or not.  But I knew for a fact that the SAPs would arrestyou when committing a crime.  You'd see them guarding the tavernsetc.

JUDGE MGOEPE: If you are not even able to tell us whetheror not they could arrest a person for whatever offence, why wouldyou be angry with them for not helping put down the problems causedby the 3 million gang?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Can you repeat your question, Sir?

JUDGE MGOEPE: I've asked you many times whether you didnot think that Municipal Police could arrest a person for committingan offence and each time you said to me that you did not knowthat.  I don't understand therefore as to why you could blamethe Municipal Police for not doing something about the 3 milliongang if you don't even know that they were supposed to arrestanybody for committing an offence.

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: When we come to the issue of the 3million gang, it is one of the things that convinced me becausethey couldn't arrest anybody from the 3 million gang when committingcrime, because things have been happening in the presence of everybody,even the police, but nobody could help.  Senator Dennis Bloemcan be my witness that one day it was a funeral of Sono.  We werebuilding a tent.  While building this tent people said to us the3 million gang has stopped people at the taxi rank, the peoplewho are heading for Pumulung cannot go home because the 3 milliongang is stopping them to do that.  We went to the rank and wefound them there and the police station was very close to thetaxi rank.  When we arrived they ran to the police station, theycame back with the police and then we ran away, we took the kombi,we went back to the township.  When we got to the old townshipthe police arrived and they said we are the SAPs, they pickedus up we went to the police station.  Senator Bloem arrived atthe police station and he complained to the police.  He said theseare the comrades.  The 3 million gang is busy robbing people,stopping the people from doing their activities.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Sorry, you are busy rattling on.  I am notasking you and I haven't asked you anything about the South AfricanPolice.  I am going to restrict and I am still restricting myselfto Municipal Police.  What did you expect the Municipal Policeto do with regard to the 3 million gang?

JUDGE MGOEPE: If they were the real police, if they werepolice they would arrest them for what they were doing.

JUDGE MGOEPE: That is exactly what I am not asking you. I am asking you what did you expect the Municipal Police to do?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: To arrest them.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Was it part of their function to arrestpeople then who commit offences?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: I don't have any idea as to whetherwas it their task to arrest people.

JUDGE MGOEPE: You see, you may be blaming people - you
might have blamed the deceased wrongly.   You might have beenangry against the deceased wrongly.  Maybe it was not his functionto do what you thought he should do.   Sorry, you have no commenton that?

MR TSEDISO GUBUWE: Was it a question or was it a comment,Sir?

JUDGE MGOEPE: Let me just put it to you this way.  Whydid you kill this man?