Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-15

MR MAZAHAM: At the close of the State's case, a discharge was granted.  As a result of that case, your entire business operation had floundered, you had been incarcerated for ten months, and thereafter you had to start again.  Was it at that juncture that you returned to the Transkei?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I had contacts with the Transkei on an ongoing, informal basis, but I was busy in Johannesburg, setting up my business again which at that stage was in the selling, selling equipment.

MR MAZAHAM: When did you return to Transkei?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Well, I had to return to Transkei, I returned to the Transkei about end of 1991 because there was a warrant for my arrest and I just managed to escape arrest when the Police came to my house, in connection with the case I am seeking amnesty here now.

MR MAZAHAM: Could you please fill in at this stage in detail, precisely how you came to be involved in the execution of this kidnapping.

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Since the establishment of the Military Council in the Transkei under Gen Holomisa as the Chairman of the Military Council, there were various attempts to overthrow the government and establish a government which is more influenceable by the then South African government.  Various coup attempts were made, the last I think it was in December 1990, where Colonel Craig Duli led the coup and where he, unsuccessful coup during which he also got killed.  This was one of many coup attempts at the time, and at that stage, the Transkei government was very worried because there was no guarantee that future coup attempts would not be successful.  With the death of Craig Duli, one of the or the remaining prominent leader for a potential coup was Mr Mbotoli and thinking of the Transkei at that time was that one way of stopping the coup is actually by eliminating the leader, because the South African government for a successful coup would depend on a non-South African, respectively a Transkeian leader.  During early 1990, the Transkei established through, I understand through telephone conversations, which were monitored, that Mr Mbotoli was in Johannesburg and were looking for him there in order to sort out the problem.	I was approached because we knew each other from the past, to assist in locating him.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you proceed, you say you knew each other, did you know Mr Mbotoli at that stage?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Through what connection?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: We knew each other through I think it must go back till approximately 1985 through my involvement, well not involvement, my association with the company called JALC, where Mr Mbotoli, I am not sure if he was a Director, but he was definitely associated with and this is when we met first.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you do business with JALC?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I did not do business with JALC, other than Mr Van Rensburg, one of the Directors of JALC, assisted me in establishing the initial contracts with the Ciskei government for the factory in Bisho.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mazaham.

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: And during those days I have met Mr Mbotoli and Mr Mbotoli also assisted us in establishing the initial contracts if I am not mistaken with the Transkeian government, with the meeting I had with Chief George Matanzima.

MR MAZAHAM: Mr Moringer, did you at any stage from your first association to the time of the offence, do any business as such with Mr Mbotoli?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: We did not do any business deal whatsoever, not to my knowledge.

MR MAZAHAM: You said before the first question by Judge Miller, that you were approached in regard to the development and what was now going to transpire.  Who actually approached you at the instance of the Transkei Military?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: It was Colonel, then, I think then it was still Major, Mzwaiba which I knew as the Head of the Military Intelligence in the Transkei.

MR MAZAHAM: And at that stage, where were you situated?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: In Johannesburg.

MR MAZAHAM: Thank you, if you could then please take it from there.

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: I think we stopped, okay the Transkei tried to locate Mr Mbotoli in Johannesburg, and asked my assistance and I agreed to assist, but I made a suggestion that I am not prepared to get involved in any assassination of anybody, and I also made a suggestion that from the Intelligence point of view, it is much more sensible to try to get Mr Mbotoli to the Transkei, because that would allow to debrief him and to find out who are actually the people in the South African government who support and who are actually engineering the coup, or the various coup attempts.  That suggestion was accepted, and I was asked to assist in executing that particular task.

MR MAZAHAM: In so far as your actual involvement and assistance, could you please outline in detail precisely what led up to the actual kidnapping?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Okay, I was given a telephone number by Colonel Mzwaiba, a Johannesburg number, which they obtained through a telephone conversation intercept and that was the number, Mr Mbotoli was suspected to be staying.  I checked the number with various numbers and I found that the number was actually the office number of a certain Mr John Strong, who had an office at I think it was 127 Oxford Road in Johannesburg.  I went there ostensibly to visit John Strong, hoping that Mr Mbotoli would be there as well, and we could sort of, we hadn't seen each other for many years, and that sort of we would, I would find a reason to be in touch with him again.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Moringer, you said you went to visit John Strong.  Did you happen to know Mr John Strong?

RAYNER MARIA MORINGER: Yes, I happened to know Mr John Strong.  Sorry, I should have explained this, Mr Strong was also one of the Directors in the 1980's of JALC, maybe I should explain JALC, the company name was actually the abbreviation of the first names of the four Directors, J stood for John Strong, A stood for Athis, I don't know his surname any more, it is a Greek gentleman, L stood for Laurie Painting and C at the end stood for Chris van Rensburg.  John Strong was a Director of JALC and I knew him from those days.  I went, I phoned John Strong and we agreed we meet at his place and during that meeting, I also met Mr Mbotoli again and for obvious reasons I tried to stay in touch, in contact with him, to find out what is happening.  I think the whole operation took from the moment we met again until the actual abduction to the Transkei, took approximately three to four months, I am not hundred percent sure how long it took.  Initially the arrangement with Colonel Mzwaiba was that I actually keep in the background and I am not going to get involved to the extent that it would be visible to Mr Mbotoli that I am involved as well.  However, after a certain period, and speaking to Mr Mbotoli, we realised that the planning for the next coup was imminent and we expected that another coup attempt where Mr Mbotoli would be involved, would be within, we estimated within the next two to three weeks, and for that reason it became important that Mr Mbotoli should be taken to the Transkei.  Consequently I had, I am not sure if it was face to face or a telephone discussion with Colonel Mzwaiba and said we have to do something, even under the condition that my involvement is becoming visible, and it was agreed and it was also agreed that if I should as a consequence of this, run into trouble with the South African government, then I would get political asylum in the Transkei.  This led then to the actual abduction of Mr Mbotoli, which I understand was the 12th of April 1991.

MR MAZAHAM: On the 12th of April 1991, just so that we can place on record the actual commission of this offence of abduction, what precisely was your role?