Amnesty Hearings — East London — 1999-04-19

EUGENE DE KOCK: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could just repeat your question Mr Hattingh, your microphone wasn't on.

MR HATTINGH: The weaponry which you brought from Namibia to Vlakplaas, was there an entry made into any register, was it expected of you to have a register of the weapons, to record all the weapons that you had there or brought there?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Did anybody else, except for ... (tape ends) ... to the stores where these weapons were stored?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Chairperson, I had exclusive access, except for my second in command at Vlakplaas, which was Major Baker, but he in turn would not be able to take any weapons before he cleared it with me.

MR HATTINGH: Did anybody from Headquarters or Head Office come and check up on the weapons that were there?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No Chairperson, but Head Office's people were there, but they came to collect weapons which they could have licensed.  They were also looking for ammunition for the weapons that they wanted, but otherwise, I had exclusive control.

MR HATTINGH: You had exclusive control and nobody came to find out what it was used for and how it was used and so forth?

EUGENE DE KOCK: No Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: It was left to you, to your discretion how to deal with the weapons?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Was any of these weapons used by supplying it to other Branches of the South African Police?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, I gave weapons to the Security Police of Soweto, as well as their Intelligence Service at Soweto as well as the Johannesburg Security Police and I have also supplied weapons and ammunition to the Security Police in the Eastern Cape, specifically East London, to the Security Police in Natal and the Security Police in the Western Cape and initially I had a written record thereof, but it became too much later on and then secondly, there was the danger that if this record was lost, or it was found by the wrong persons, it would have dire consequences.

MR HATTINGH: Why did the Security Branches ask for these weapons, what were they to be used for?

EUGENE DE KOCK: One of the reasons Chairperson that they gave, was that they wanted to train their own members, not the Police members, but some of these Branches had their own Askari Units, Units similar to the Vlakplaas Unit.  There was a small Unit established in Bloemfontein, there was a reasonably growing Unit locally here in this part of the Cape, they were established in this city, here where we are now.  And there was a group in Durban and they started training their members and brought them up to operational standard.

MR HATTINGH: Any other purpose which the weapons were requested for?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, this would be for clandestine, covert operations which would have led to the death or injury of the enemy.

MR HATTINGH: And what was the purpose thereof that they wanted to use Eastern Block weapons during these operations?

EUGENE DE KOCK: It would leave the impression that the Security Police could not be connected with this, in other words, it would point in the wrong direction.

MR HATTINGH: Of these weapons, were any of them used in co-operation with the South African Defence Force?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: I don't speak of this incident - before we get to this incident, can you just mention briefly what it was meant for?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Chairperson, amongst others it was, some of these Eastern Block weapons were supplied to the CCB, but to a lesser extent, except for one instance where a weapons cache was established for the CCB at Krugersdorp and which led the following day to this find of this cache and led to the attacks in Zambia and in Zimbabwe and in Botswana where several persons were killed and facilities were destroyed.

MR HATTINGH: Do I understand you correctly then Mr De Kock, it was requested of you to establish a weapons cache which would be "found" and this would serve as an excuse to launch attacks on bases of the ANC in the neighbouring States on the grounds of this weapons cache being discovered?

EUGENE DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, when it is convenient, we can take the tea adjournment, but I don't want to interrupt your flow of questioning.

MR HATTINGH: This will be perfectly convenient for us, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will just take a short tea adjournment now, until half past eleven.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

EUGENE DE KOCK: (still under oath)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hattingh, just before the tea adjournment the applicant was giving evidence about these false weapon caches.

MR HATTINGH: (continued)   Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr De Kock, with regard to the weaponry on Vlakplaas and the use thereof, it was used for a variety of operations.  Was it also used by members of Vlakplaas?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Were some of the weapons planted to use the word, at incidents in order to create the impression that these liberation movements had been involved in the incident?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, and sometimes weapons were provided to other Security Branches for the same purposes.

MR HATTINGH: When Dirk Coetzee and Albert Nofamela made their statements which led to the announcement of the Harms Commission of Enquiry, what happened to these arms?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Initially the situation was static at Vlakplaas with regard to the weapons, but within the first 14 days approximately I received a call from Gen Staedtler who was the Head of the South African Police Intelligence Service, during which he warned me that a complete group of the press would be permitted to visit Vlakplaas and take photographs and be shown around, and we very hastily removed all weapons from Vlakplaas.

MR HATTINGH: What was the purpose from Gen Staedtler?

EUGENE DE KOCK: It was to warn me that the press would be visiting, but the objective with allowing the press to visit would be to indicate that Vlakplaas was not at all as per the allegations of Nofamela and that the impression would be created that this was a normal working facility of the SAP which was used completely for normal purposes and circumstances.

MR HATTINGH: Did you take the necessary steps to make sure that there wouldn't be any incriminating goods which could be found at Vlakplaas?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes, we removed all weapons which we did not have on the State Property Account.

MR HATTINGH: Would these among others be the weaponry that was brought in from Namibia?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes, and there was also a large quantity of commercial explosives which we used for practices and training,  and we also removed this to another Intelligence facility with the operational name Daisy.

MR HATTINGH: That was a farm near Vlakplaas?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And from there, Mr De Kock, from Daisy, the weapons were once again moved, where to?

EUGENE DE KOCK: The weapons were moved to the Counter Insurgency Training Farm at Groblersdal, a completely established facility for the training of all members of the Forces for unrest management and counter insurgency services.

MR HATTINGH: What was the name of the farm?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Maleeuskop, and all the ammunition and explosives were stored in the official safes which had been established for that purpose.

MR HATTINGH: So this was a bona fide official Branch of the South African Police which would take control of these weapons?

EUGENE DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And from there?