Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-30

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV BOOYENS: Do you confirm what is said in paragraph 35?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: The afternoon of the 12th of December you flew 
to Pretoria?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Let me put it in this way, Mr Van Rensburg says 
that you arrived at his house at six o'clock that morning.  Why was 
it done at such a strange time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I received instructions from Brigadier Gilbert 
that I had to make contact with him early the morning at his house.

ADV BOOYENS: You did not know what the reason for that 
arrangement was?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV BOOYENS: You then arranged through a police contact and 
the morning of the 13th of December you went to Brigadier Van 
Rensburg's house?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You knew Mr Van Rensburg since his days in 
Port Elizabeth?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: And at that time he was the Commanding Officer 
of C10?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Under which Vlakplaas resorted?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And in this discussion between you and Gilbert it 
was mentioned that you should get assistance from outside and 
mentioned Vlakplaas in this regard?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: While you were at Brigadier Van Rensburg's 
house, Mr De Kock arrived there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you arrive there before Mr De Kock or did 
he arrive afterwards, or did you come there together?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I arrived before Mr De Kock at General 
Van Rensburg's house.

ADV BOOYENS: And did he tell you what Gilbert had told him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, he did.

ADV BOOYENS: And did you provide him with further 
particulars?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I did.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you give him a more complete picture of the 
conclusions you have arrived at?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I did.

ADV BOOYENS: And it was suggested that he could possibly 
investigate it himself.  At that stage he wasn't stationed here any 
more, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And the investigation was an investigation which 
had to be done locally?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: At a certain stage, did you tell Brigadier Van 
Rensburg after he had asked you who were the people who were 
involved?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And did you provide the names of the people to 
him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I did.

ADV BOOYENS: The names of all four people?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

ADV BOOYENS: And did he know some of them as he has given 
evidence?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, he knew some of them.

ADV BOOYENS: After Mr De Kock had arrived there, was he also 
told the reason of this operation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, we did that.

ADV BOOYENS: Could it have been that only the fraud was 
mentioned or as it concerns you, a whole picture was given?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: As I can remember we mentioned the fraud.  I 
don't know whether it was at an earlier stage before Mr De Kock 
arrived or whether I mentioned it to General Van Rensburg or while 
Mr De Kock was present.  But what I can remember is General Van 
Rensburg told us that he was in a hurry because he had to go to a 
meeting.
	I can't remember exactly in detail what was said.  What I have 
referred to already is that three of these people were involved in 
Goniwe and I mentioned their names regarding that matter.

ADV BOOYENS: And the fact that they were double agents?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: And the fact that they were double agents, yes.

ADV BOOYENS: Did Brigadier Van Rensburg as he has testified, 
did he give instructions to Mr De Kock to assist you in this regard?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, he did.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you and Mr De Kock then leave Van 
Rensburg's house?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes, I accompanied Mr De Kock to his house.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you walk or did you go by car?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: We walked, because the distance from Van 
Rensburg's house to De Kock's house was a short distance.  It is 
about 50 metres.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you have transport?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, I did not.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you go with Mr De Kock in his vehicle?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you go to the technical support system 
where you met Waal du Toit?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And then a discussion took place regarding the 
detail of this operation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: In other words that was just a technical 
discussion of how this should be executed?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Afterwards you and Colonel De Kock left for 
Vlakplaas?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And there, like you mentioned in paragraph 39, 
he said to Vermeulen, Snyman and Ras, he gave instructions to them 
to accompany you to Port Elizabeth?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You left on the same day?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And that evening late you arrived at Port 
Elizabeth and you provided accommodation for them for the night?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Did you know Mr De Kock beforehand?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

ADV BOOYENS: That is, did you know him personally?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, that was the first meeting I had with Mr 
De Kock.

ADV BOOYENS: You confirmed in paragraph 14 that this Jetta 
vehicle which was blown up, that you fetched it from Louis le 
Grange square and made it possible for the bomb to be planted?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: The bomb was a remote controlled bomb?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And you mention here what happened 
afterwards, further events regarding time and place were discussed?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You also had gathered intelligence that a certain 
terrorist Mandla Makhubela, that he was in 124 Hinza Street in 
Motherwell?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And this information, was this used to instruct 
these four people who had to be eliminated, to go and do 
surveillance?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You informed Colonel Roelofse regarding this 
person in Hinza Street, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Colonel Roelofse was not informed regarding the 
exact purpose of this operation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Then you went to New Brighton police station 
and you had discussions with these members.  A photograph of this 
supposed terrorist was shown to them?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: Mgoduka was not present.  You made 
arrangements to go and fetch him from his house?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: And from there telephone calls were made with 
his Divisional Commander and you told his Divisional Commander 
that he must come to work?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You decided that they would not use the usual 
vehicle because it was part of observation.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Faku recommended this.

ADV BOOYENS: And you told the applicant Mr Lotz that he had 
to bring the Volkswagen Jetta to a certain point.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.

ADV BOOYENS: You say that this vehicle had a SAP registration. 
 That wasn't on the number plate, it was a false number plate?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct.