Human Rights Violation Hearings — Lusikisiki — 1997-03-25

CHAIRPERSON: We have given you a lengthy time to talk.  I do not know whether these people that Mr Bukrula Pathekile and Mrs Khethiwe Pathekile, maybe they would like to add something.

CHIEF PATHEKILE: I have nothing more to add.

MRS PATHEKILE: There is nothing else that I would like to add.  That is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Order please.   Mr Sandi?

MR SANDI: Thank you very much Mr Chairperson.  I have two questions only.  I have two questions to Mr Nonkonyane.
 Chief Nonkonyane, you spoke as an Attorney and as a Chief.  Is that so?

MVELO NONKONYANE: Yes.

MR SANDI: The list that you were reading, do you have a personal knowledge of these things or were you told about these things?

MVELO NONKONYANE: This list was prepared by a Committee in Umtimde.   The destruction that I am referring to I know about it.

MR SANDI: Does Chief Bukrula and Mrs Khethiwe, would it not be better if they had spoken for themselves, because these are the things that happened in their own village?

MVELO NONKONYANE: I think that they took their legal rights to be represented.

MR SANDI: I am going to ask a last question.   If you do not want to ask the question it is all right.  Were there reasons why they wanted legal representation?

MVELO NONKONYANE: It is their right, their prerogative that
they be represented.

MR SANDI: The reason that I am asking this question is that most of the people that came before the Commission especially people who were accused would speak for themselves.   I am sure you are well aware of that, especially as an Attorney?   Did it not amaze you that they should be legally represented?

MVELO NONKONYANE: No, because even the letter that they got ...   We are not talking about legal terms.

MR SANDI: We can talk about legal issues.

MVELO NONKONYANE: The letter says that there are people with accusations.   They have a right to be legally represented.   For their own reasons they choose legal representation.
 They know that I am the Chief of the Bala clan and I am an Attorney.

MR SANDI: Did I understand well, when you said that you were talking about what they told you, you have no personal knowledge of what happened according to your list.

MVELO NONKONYANE: I just have personal knowledge of what happened at Bizweni.

CHAIRPERSON: One question for you.  I want to ask Mr Bukrula first.
 According to your knowledge were there any other houses that were burnt down in your village on the 3 May 1993?

MR PATHEKILE: According to my knowledge there are houses that burnt down on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: How many?

MR PATHEKILE: Soshlobo's house and Skhosana's house.   At the time of Mancanceni and Timbawana their houses got burnt afterwards.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you estimate in which month this incident happened?

MR PATHEKILE: No, I cannot, but it was in 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: The three people whose houses were burnt down were they in the group which was against your authority in the village?

MR PATHEKILE: Sir, in Skhosana's place I tried to get there.  There was an investigation done and one man called Mr Skhosana's wife and asked her what happened and she said that the children were burning grass in the kitchen.

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to disrupt you, because we have already heard that from Chief Nonkonyane, who is your legal representative.
 What I want to know, these three houses, the people of these three houses were they against your authority in the village.

MR PATHEKILE: I do not know about that.

CHAIRPERSON: I would like you to give me a chance to finish my question.
 What I am saying is, in the evidence given by Mr Nonkonyane on your behalf we found out that there a group of people in your village, those people were against your authority.   My question is, these people whose houses were burnt down in 1993 were they members of this group that was against you?

MR PATHEKILE: There are mixed Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: The three people who came here, who said that there houses were burnt down, were they belonging to this group?

MR PATHEKILE: No, but they used to take control of the field and the crops.

CHAIRPERSON: Your legal representative said that they were against you.

MR PATHEKILE: Yes they were against me because they were controlling the field.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask you again this question.  Were these three men who just testified here were they against your authority in the village.

MR PATHEKILE: Yes, they were against my royal authority.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a connection, according to your knowledge, because they were the ones whose houses were burnt down in 1993?   Is there a connection that they were against your authority and their houses being burnt down?  Is there a connection between the two?

MR PATHEKILE: No, I do not think so, because other people's houses were also burnt down.

CHAIRPERSON: How many houses were burnt down at that time?  You said there were three.  You said there were three houses that burnt down in 1993.

MR PATHEKILE: There were four houses.

CHAIRPERSON: These three men who came here are they amongst the four people whose houses were burnt down?

MR PATHEKILE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Miss Maya?

MS MAYA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I have one question to Mrs Khethiwe.
 My question to you madam is concerning you.  When you were asked whether you have something to say you said that even at that time you were supporting your brother.  You were talking on behalf of your brother.  What did you mean by that?

MRS PATHEKILE: What I can say is that I have no knowledge of what Skhosana have said.

MS MAYA: Madam, my question is you just said that even at that time you were speaking on behalf of your brother.  What were you talking about?  You can speak on behalf of your brother.  What did you say?  What did you say on behalf of your brother madam?

MRS PATHEKILE: Me?

MS MAYA: Yes.

MRS PATHEKILE: I asked them what they were doing to my brother?   I did not insult anyone.

MS MAYA: Who did you say this to?

MRS PATHEKILE: Are you asking me?

MS MAYA: Yes madam.

MRS PATHEKILE: I was saying this while we were in court.

MS MAYA: You said that you were speaking on behalf of your brother.   Who were you talking to?

MRS PATHEKILE: I do not understand your question.

MS MAYA: One other question, the last one madam.   I am going to go back to my first question.
 You said that you won Mr Skhosana.

MRS PATHEKILE: No I did not won Mr Skhosana.

MS MAYA: Thank you madam.