Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-17

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And then in paragraph 24 you deal with the false evidence which you gave in the post mortem inquest to which we have already referred and the presence of arms in the vehicle and the allegation that the occupants of that vehicle had fired shots at you?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Please continue.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I acted in the execution of my duties in the service of the South African Police.  I truly believed that such action was expected of me and that my conduct fell within the ambit of my expressive or implicit authorization.  I believed this especially in the light of the pressure which was placed upon us in the Security Branch by the political leaders of the time.  It was continually said that terrorists had to be wiped out in order to combat the revolution.  I did this as part of my opposition to the struggle and my actions were aimed at supporters of the liberation movement.  What I had done I did in order to protect the government and the National Party's interest and to ward off the revolutionary onslaught.  As such I bona fide believed that what I had done, fell within my explicit or implicit authorization.

MR VISSER: Mr Botha, this shooting incident where the vehicle came to a stop, can you please explain to us where exactly this had taken place?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, it was on the N2 highway at the Quarry Road off ramp.

MR VISSER: Did you see a helicopter at the scene during the shooting incident?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: No, I did not, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear a helicopter?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Was there a helicopter afterwards that you can recall?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I do not recall any helicopter at that scene.

CHAIRPERSON: Who investigated this matter after all was over?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I think it was W/O Gouws who handled the post mortem inquest.

CHAIRPERSON: How many vehicles were involved in the firing at the occupants of that car?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, it was the vehicle that I drove and then there were various other vehicles of the South African Police which joined and I do not know what their positions were and from where from each vehicle it was fired.  It was dark.

MR LAX: Well you surely know about the vehicle that Wasserman was driving?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but what I meant was that there were so many other vehicles, did you not find out how many vehicles were there that were involved in the firing at this car?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, W/O Gouws, who dealt with the post mortem inquest would have obtained those particulars.

CHAIRPERSON: So there is a likelihood that some of the people who died in that vehicle may have been killed by other than you and Wasserman.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is probably so, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: To join up with the last question we know of at least 5 vehicles which were present.  It was the vehicle in which you and Gen Steyn were, it was Wasserman's kombi, two vehicles which you can recall from the Task Force and Andy Taylor's vehicle.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You cannot say whether they were all there and who were there and what their positions were.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: There could have been more vehicles Chairperson because while we waited at kwaMashu police station, more members from the South African police arrived to participate in this operation.

MR VISSER: As you have already testified.

MR LAX: Mr Visser while you're just looking up there, while this was going on, were you all in radio contact with each other?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Some of our vehicles were indeed in radio contact Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, that's the evidence from this witness which we propose to lead.  Perhaps I should just round it off, Mr Chairman, with your permission.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please do.

MR VISSER: You then request amnesty for the murder of the 4 mentioned persons.  You defeated the ends of justice by not disclosing the true facts.  You also request obstructing the ends of justice by planting these arms on these persons and you also perjured yourself.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You were also part of the illegal possession of unlicensed firearms in the sense that you handled these firearms when you placed them.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You also request amnesty for any offence or delict which might flow from the facts.

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The decision to plant these firearms on the occupants of that car, that decision was taken by whom?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: By myself and Gen Steyn.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he give evidence at the post mortem?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: I don't believe so.

CHAIRPERSON: Who else gave evidence at the post mortem about the actual shooting?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, I recall that I testified and I assume some of the members of the Reaction Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on) as a result of this post mortem inquest?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: Chairperson, it was a fair - I cannot remember the exact pronunciation but it was, it handles about a fair action in the death of the suspects.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear.  Mr Visser what was he saying?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, he says that the finding was that it was justifiable homicide.  That is by inference so, what the terms of the provisions of the Act.  The magistrate's finding was in fact one word, no, but that's in answer to the question of whether anybody is to be blamed for the death of the deceased.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: So the finding was in effect, justifiable homicide, no doubt on the evidence, inter alia of Mr Botha that they fired out of the vehicle at them.
	Mr Chairman we have now been presented by the Evidence Leader with certain documentation.  I don't know whether she wants to hand them in in a particular order.  May I suggest with respect that seeing that they have been made available that the other two affidavits or rather would the statements be marked now so that they can be kept together and that we then hand up the other documents to you in sequence of order, Mr Chairman?
	Steyn will be the next witness.  Perhaps his could be Exhibit C and Wasserman is the last witness and he will be D and then perhaps Ms Thabethe wishes a certain order for the other bundles of documents which have now come to hand.

CHAIRPERSON: What are these other documents?

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, it's the post mortem report.  It was made available at the request of Mr Webster, so I've made copies for everyone.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to hand that in now?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair, we can hand it in to form part of the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it Mr Webster who was going to do that?

MR WEBSTER: I will do so, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Hold it, just let me place on record a few things here.  Yes.  Do you want to do it at this stage or at a later stage?  You can do it whenever it's convenient.

MR WEBSTER: So let me do it at a later stage, please Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You do that when it's convenient.  Yes, that's your evidence in chief of this applicant?

MR VISSER: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR WEBSTER: Thank you.  Mr Botha, before you commenced giving your evidence, you took the oath, you remember?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct.

MR WEBSTER: I take it that the basic and only reason why you are applying for amnesty is so that you are not prosecuted for your actions, is that correct?

MATHYS CORNELIUS BOTHA: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WEBSTER: You are a man who had no compunction to lie, do you agree with me?