Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-05

MR VAN DEN BERG: Miss Heloise Jacobs who testified at the criminal trial says that she had gone out for a short period of time to go and put petrol in her car and when she returned to her residence, when she returned to her home and whilst she was still in the car she was confronted by a person brandishing a firearm.  Can you comment on that?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: When we attacked the household we were attacking the settlers whom we got there.  When we got there, there were three people who got out of the house and when we attacked them, there's one who managed to escape and went into the house.  The commander went into the house and followed suit.  The other one got into the car, that is when we attacked her with Kopane and took her out of the car.  I took the keys, the car keys.  We took her into the house.  Michael and Thabang Tjitja were taking the other ones.  We went into the house.  When we took the other ones from the car Kopane was attacking the other one, Thabang and Mike.  Soon after we had taken the other settler out of the car we heard some gunshot and went into the house to get one of the settlers lying on the ground and we had come with one settler that we had got out of the car.  We tied them up, we forced them to lie on the ground and we took the ties and tied their feet as well as their hands.  After having done that we heard the bell, somebody was knocking and the commander went out to investigate as to who that was.  When the commander came back he said that the security guy had run away and we therefore had to withdraw.  Before then, when the commander went out I ransacked the place and I got hold of two guns.  We thereafter went out.  The commander had got some prior information that there were two guns in the house.  We duly got the guns and took them with.  We withdrew in accordance with the commander's instructions, so we went back to where we came from.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I'd really just asked you about how many people you'd found outside the house and you've now repeated ...(intervention)

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: There were three that we got outside the house.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You see not that a great deal turns on it, Mr Nkabinde, but there was only Heloise Jacobs who was outside the house and when she was confronted by you, she pressed the panic button which set off the alarm.  This alerted her father, the deceased, Dirk Jacobs and he came upstairs.  When he realised what was happening, he went back into the house calling for his wife to get a gun so that he could defend himself.  He was shot whilst he was unarmed.

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Jacobs was outside with his family, that is the two female settlers as well as himself.  From there he ran into the house and the commander advanced him.  We took the other female out of the car.  Mofokeng and Thabang Tjitja attacked the young woman.  Kopane and myself took this other white settler out of the car.  As we proceeded towards the house we heard some gunshot, that's when we got the other settler on the ground, he had been shot.  What you're telling me is new to me.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Dirk Jacobs who had been shot, what happened to him after he was shot?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: We tied them, they were inside the house at that time.  We went through the house, ransacked it and retrieved two guns.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkabinde, he's asking what happened to the person who was shot, what happened to him.  We don't want to hear the whole incident, if you can just listen to the question.  He's asking after Mr Jacobs was shot, was anything done to Mr Jacobs?  That's the question.

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: We tied them if I'm not mistaken, I think we tied them.

CHAIRPERSON: You say then did you also tie the man who had been shot?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I don't remember much with regard to Jacob but I do remember that we did tie the two females, I don't remember what happened to Jacob.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You can't dispute that he was tied up, despite the fact that he had a fatal gunshot wound you tied him up?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I don't remember.

MR VAN DEN BERG: There was a request made to you after Mr Jacobs was shot, that medical help be sought.  You refused that, didn't you?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: That is correct, he said he wanted to phone the ambulance, I refused flatly and I kicked him.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And you did what?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I kicked him.

MR VAN DEN BERG: We move on with your affidavit.  You say paragraph 10
"We withdrew and on our arrival at Naledi we surrendered everything to the commander."
Do you see that?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Grant me a moment Mr Chairperson, I'm just looking for a reference?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg I see that it's five past 11, would this be a convenient time to take the short tea adjournment?

MR VAN DEN BERG: I'm in your hands, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think it probably would be.  We're going to just take a short tea adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: (s.u.o.)

MR VAN DEN BERG: (continues) ...(inaudible) operation, was that to repossess firearms or was it to kill Mr Jacobs?

MR MKABINDE: It was to obtain firearms, repossess them from the settlers because they came into our land having nothing in their hands, they just dispossessed us when they came so we were repossessing whatever we had been dispossessed of.

MR VAN DEN BERG: So if I understand you correctly, the purpose of this operation was to retrieve firearms that were at the Jacobs' home?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: It was not the purpose of this operation to kill Mr Jacobs?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: He did not die or was not killed by mistake, it's one settler one bullet, that was our policy.

MR VAN DEN BERG: What about the other two settlers in the house?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: We tied them up but we did not kill them.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You said that Gadebe had information that there were guns in the house, did he tell you how he got that information or how he came about that?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I'm a soldier, I act upon instructions and I don't ask questions.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Insofar as the Stantons are concerned, it's correct that they live in Parkview and not in Parktown as your affidavit refers to?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes it's Parkview.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Here you came across two domestic workers who you tied up and across four members of the Stanton household who you also tied up?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Are we through with the first operation?

CHAIRPERSON: If you can just answer the question, Mr Nkabinde.  Well it wasn't a question, it was just a statement.  Perhaps you can put a question, Mr van den Berg?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Could you please repeat your question?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Is it correct that at the Stanton household there were two domestic workers who were tied up and then four members of the household who you also tied up?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: When we got there, we waited and we saw one black person, we ...(intervention)

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Nkabinde, I don't want you to repeat what's in your affidavit, we've already - that's on the record, I'm just asking you to confirm whether all the people that you found on the premises, that is two domestic workers and four members of the household, whether they were tied up, that's all I'm asking you.

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And one of the people that you tied up was a six year old boy, is that correct?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: I do not know his age but he was a kid I should think.

MR VAN DEN BERG: He was a kid.  Can I refer you to the bundle of documents, at page 47?  It's an extract from the judgment at your criminal trial.  There the learned judge summarises and the second paragraph, the evidence of a Mr Andrew Kirk, do you have that?

NKOSINATHI NKABINDE: Yes.