Human Rights Violation Hearings — Pollsmoor — 1996-11-26

ADV POTGIETER: Good morning Ms Bailey, who is with you?

UNKNOWN: My husband.

ADV POTGIETER: Your husband, Mr Bailey.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: Will both of you be talking - or only you?

UNKNOWN: Yes he would also like to say...[intervention]

ADV POTGIETER: He would also like to say something - all right.  Well then both of you will have to take the oath.  And I am going to ask you to stand first or you can stand both.  But I am just going to ask Mr Bailey to give us his full names.

UNKNOWN: Harold John Bailey

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you very much.
MARLENE BAILEY Duly sworn states
HAROLD JOHN BAILEY Duly sworn states

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you, you may be seated.  Dr Wendy Orr will assist you in giving your testimony.

WENDY ORR: Good morning Mr and Ms Bailey.

UNKNOWN: Good morning -  morning.

WENDY ORR: Thank you both for being here.  I think it must have be very difficult  for you to sit through the previous two testimonies knowing that - that those events affected your lives so deeply as well.  So, I am going to ask you, Ms Bailey to start and tell us what happened to your family on that day, in August 1985.

UNKNOWN: I am Ms Marlene Bailey.  I worked at Pick & Pay that time when it happened.  I got home at half past five and as I got out of the taxi I heard  two shots - and I still told the lady that was getting off next to me, I have said - Ek wonder wie skiet hulle nou?   I wonder who they are shooting now?
[indistinct] my door, because my yard faces Wespoort Laan and my front is in Shepard Way.  And as I got into my backdoor my two sons were crying.  And I just thought - ag, it is just the way children goes on when the mother and father is working.  But he was at night shift at that time.  And as I went through the room he came out by our room and as I looked at him I could see something was wrong.
And he said to me - he called me Kaffer.  Kaffer, Quentin has been shot, and I went out by the door.  And as I went down, from Shepherd way I could go into Drover street, not far - just so - and as I walked down Drover street, this police came up and I was going down.  He still had on Riot clothes.  I can see him clearly still.
I said to him - Meneer, waar le die kind wat geskiet is?  I asked, where is the child that had been shot?    He pulled in his hands, so he said wie is u?  Who are you and  I said - I am the child's mother.  He said to me - Ek kan regtig nie se waarom - I can really not say why I shot them.   [indistinct]  on that I could see, but I just looked at him and I walked on.
And as I came to the lane there, where my son was laying, there were three policemen.  Two Coloureds were sitting in the van, one was standing over him with a shotgun and the - there were three - and the one was standing on the hill. 
And as I bend down, because he was laying on his stomach, and I bent down to turn him around - so the one that was standing there with the shotgun said to me - los die vark af.  Leave the pig alone.  So I thought - jy is 'n bloody coward.  You are a bloody coward - and the two in the van they started laughing.  So I said to them - Ja, witman gat honde - julle sal lag.  White man's dogs, you would laugh julle so my husband said - maar julle kan mos - as die kinders iets verkeerd gedoen het - you people did harm to the children, you could just have hit them.  He said - nee, ons skiet om vrek te skiet.  We wanted to shoot them dead.
The children - so they couldn't give me any answer where the children was.  So that is - when I was there - I don't know what happened after that.  So, they came to fetch him and took him to the morgue.  So we went down to the Police station  - so the Commissioner  [indistinct] Mr Paulsen said - I asked - where do we go now to find out about our children?  So this Coloured policeman said - nee, julle moet - no, you have to find your dead children at the mortuary, go and look for them at the mortuary. - at that time.
So, we heard nothing afterwards.  And the UDF still came to us - as you know.  That time we afraid to accept anything and I chased them away, because we were afraid, the next minute - I mean, if you accept something now, the next  minute the police will be on your door.  But I can tell you - they were very-very rude.  
And after the funeral and everything - Mr Moosa, we went to Mr Moosa and he said we will get a letter - so we got the letter from the Court and we went the first time.  So nothing happened, and the second time they sent us a letter again and so we went again.  So they just called us into a little room  and said to us - everything is over.  That there is nothing they can do about it, and so we just left it like that.  
And I can - we - we were a very close family, but now, I can't even mention his name, we  can't even speak about it.  You can't ask the children a second question because they started getting very abrupt, you see.  And I don't know, so  I don't know what is going to happen.

WENDY ORR: Ms Bailey, how old was Quentin when he was killed?

UNKNOWN: He was 13.

WENDY ORR: And tell us about the rest of your family - how many other children do you have?

UNKNOWN: It's 4 - I have got 4 now - .  Three boys and one girl.  But Quintin was a very active boy at soccer, any sport.  He would play it.  And he even was with Moslem people.  He was a very active child, so maybe they were just curious to see what was happening there.  Like any child will do - to go and see what happened.  And the police was in the yard that shot them - in other people's yard, because still yesterday a lady told me - she saw the whole incident - I said, ja why now - now everybody comes forward.  But she said they were afraid to tell us that time.

WENDY ORR: The policeman you saw in the street, as you were walking up, from what he said it sounds as if he was the one who shot.

UNKNOWN: That's  what, it was an European police.  That was his words to me.  And as I said, there was no name tag, anything, but I was also so deurmekaar, I didn't even ask him his name or anything.  I just looked at him and I walked on.  And when I got there, there were two Europeans and two Coloureds were sitting in the van.

WENDY ORR: This lady you spoke to yesterday, do you think she might be prepared to give a statement to the Truth Commission about what happened that day?

UNKNOWN: I hope so, if  I can talk to her,  I hope so.

WENDY ORR: Can I ask you to give her name to the briefer afterwards?

UNKNOWN: Ja.

WENDY ORR: Thank you.   Mr Bailey, is there anything you would like to add?