Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-19

UNKNOWN: Thank you Commissioner.  On that one I must clarify that.  I am giving you an impression that I have received after I was given reports, that the way the force with which the troops saw the rush towards them was very intimidatory.  Secondly, without getting into the who shot first, and who shot the soldier, but there was at the time the impression that, from the crowd there was a shot which gave the impression that they were under siege and they were being attacked.  And then some handgrenade sounds or whatever which no one actually proved or can prove, I don't know about that, I don't want to get into that, but the report I get gave me the impression that the people merely were forced to jump to the conclusion that we are being shot, hence now my conclusion that they might have acted in self-defence.

MR POTGIETER: Just a related question, as the head of state then what precautions did you take to make sure that the loss of life was prevented at all costs?

UNKNOWN: First it is the court interdict which regulated the behaviour there, which no one believed and thought that they would be blatantly overlooked, so having said that the people who were there surely could have been there but they were just there as a deterrent.  I don't want to believe that anyone could have thought that that day there was going to be a shooting.

MS MKHIZE: To be specific, were there any instructions given to the soldiers as to how to control the crowds?  You know in any country marches, riots are common, but usually heads of state make sure that there is no loss of life?

UNKNOWN: Yes.  I do believe that soldiers and police before the march were given specific guidelines as usual.  You know that was not the first march.  They have been monitoring marches for as long as you know they know, and in all the marches they monitored their first stance is to stand back and watch until such time as they see some disorder then they may try and solve that.  If it escalates into a fight or a shooting then they know what to do.  Those people have been trained there.  There may be riot policemen there, there may also be policemen and soldiers who constantly sit together and discuss that if this goes beyond our control then it's for the soldiers, because then it means war.  So my answer to you would be confined only to what I know are the standard of preparational procedures and not what happened there because I was not there.

MS MKHIZE: Before I hand over to the Chair I just want to ask you one question.  We have had numerous witnesses for the past two days who have been really wanting you to come forward and tell them more about what happened, a cry for reconciliation with you so to say, if I may ask you where are you today?  What do you think you need to do to be reconciled with your own people in this area?
EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
O GQOZO

UNKNOWN: It's a difficult question, it's a difficult question because one would think that - it would depend on whether the people still see me as a person who intentionally was there to ensure that people died before I leave the chairmanship of the Council of State or whether they take it as an unfortunate accident which happened, which shouldn't have happened, or whether they in all the things that I have done, they cannot see any little one good thing.
 And having said that I think that really I would hope that they listened to me today as a person that is humbly and very honestly trying to paint a picture of a man that has always suffered with them silently on this whole thing, that never wanted it to happen, that would do anything to protect anyone from being killed.  
 Further than that I think I would also ask that everyone who listens to me believe that I love all the people of this area and I would like them to forgive me.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you very much Brigadier.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you very much Hlengiwe.  Order, order, we are missing the testimony.  We can't hear what the witness says if you make a loud noise.  So please - Brigadier can we just round off this point that Ms Mkhize has raised with you because it's not quite clear to me what your position is on the submission on page 12 that the action by the military was thus defensive in nature, I just want to come back to that.  I have heard what you said but do you stand by this submission?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman this is the report I got and I believe that the soldiers didn't want to kill people.  My soldiers never were hostile to people.  I remember when I took over they did not want what was happening to the people of Inkonkwene(?) and at Puni(?), I know that, I was part of the military.  I know also that on the day of the coup, my coup, we had the displeasure of being called at night, after I had addressed the people at Mdantsane stadium, we were alerted to smoke billowing around a highway and soldiers went there, tried to get the people away and then at night around 12 o'clock, at Fort Jackson there were so many people moving around there, looting TV's and things like that, they did not want to shoot the people, because I said people this coup is for the people, if we try to stop these people and they don't want to leave rather leave them. You know we can't make it worse by shooting anyone here.  Shoot rather in the air and so on.  They wouldn't shoot people.  It was at night that time, if they were criminals they would have shot people there.

MR POTGIETER: Right.  That's obviously a different situation, I am talking about the 7th of September 1992, and I want to ask you quite pointedly because what we have to do is we have to ascertain the facts, we must ascertain the truth, so I am asking you quite pointedly do you stand by this submission that the military acted defensively on the particular day?  Because I want to test that.  I mean if you stand by that I want to test it.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman I stand by that opinion which I got, I derived after I was given the facts about what happened there.

MR POTGIETER: Right.  So in other words this is the opinion that you formed after the initial report was made to you about the incident?

UNKNOWN: Yes sir.

MR POTGIETER: Right.  Now you've never testified before at any one of these commissions, of these inquiries that were held into this incident?

UNKNOWN: No not at all.

MR POTGIETER: Right.  Now your opinion I assume is reflected or based on the facts reflected in annexure J, your press statement on that same day which you've referred to in your testimony?

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR POTGIETER: Where you said,
"It has been reported to me that...."
and the second paragraph,
"... on Ciskei soldier was shot and killed and the rush continued at the troops".

UNKNOWN: Yes.

MR POTGIETER: Have you got that?

UNKNOWN: Yes Sir.

MR POTGIETER: And then you carry on in your release, your press release you say,
"... the order to fire was then given.  We have received reports of gunfire directed from within the crowd at members of the defence force, and of hand grenades which were slung from within the crowd.  The action taken by the defence force members was defensive".

UNKNOWN: Yes Sir.

MR POTGIETER: That's the crux of your opinion?

UNKNOWN: That's correct, yes.

MR POTGIETER: Right.  Now as you are sitting there today do you accept the factual situation set out in this press statement as being true?  Are those the facts?

UNKNOWN: Sir after having read, listened to many people you know deliberating on this issue, I found that I have no way of saying either of them is correct, but I had only to rely on the knowledge that knowing the troops I don't think they would have shot if they were not feeling threatened.

MR POTGIETER: Okay.  So what you say is that you can't say that this is true?

UNKNOWN: No I can't, I can't say that.