Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-03-12

ADV DE JAGER: You, however, did not associate yourself with 
CAPE TOWN HEARING	AMNESTY/

ADV DE JAGER: 132

UNKNOWN: the method used to kill this person?

UNKNOWN: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: What aspect of the method was unacceptable to 
you?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, this askari had to know that he was 
going to be killed.  Now he is walking with us, in front of 
us, he is cuffed, he sees this chair.  He was a trained 
terrorist, he knows what explosives look like.  He was tied 
to the chair and they shoot him. I cannot remember 
specifically his face or where they shot him.  If they 
wanted to execute him, I would say shoot him from the back 
or blindfold him so that he couldn't see it.  I never - I 
felt that this wasn't right.  It bothered me.

HASSAN MALL: So is the position that up to now we will never 
know why this man was killed, is that it?  What the precise 
reason was.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, except for what I believe, we won't 
be able to ascertain that, that it was my impression.

HASSAN MALL: Yes no apart from impressions, you never learnt 
from De Kock or your superiors precisely why he was killed 
and nor did you ask?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chair, it might be that they told me, but I 
can't remember specifically.

HASSAN MALL: So we are left in the dark as far as this 
Committee is concerned,  we won't know why?

UNKNOWN: Except, Mr Chair, for the fact that all the 
persons I have mentioned have applied to this Committee and 
they will testify about that.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know whether De Kock was accused of 
this murder?

UNKNOWN: I don't know.
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W CAPE: 133

HASSAN MALL: We will take an adjournment at this stage.

UNKNOWN: (s.u.o.)

HASSAN MALL: Mr Du Plessis, re-examination?

UNKNOWN: I have no re-examination, Mr Chairman.

HASSAN MALL: Yes, we move onto the next matter.

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, the next matter 
you will find on page 128.  Capt Mentz, this incident took 
place in April 1989 - in 1992, pardon.  Page 129, before you 
start with your evidence, Capt Mentz.  What was the position 
regarding the bringing in of weapons into the Republic after 
negotiations have started with the ANC and the PAC, let's 
say from 1990?

UNKNOWN: There was an increased number of smugglings 
from neighbouring states.

UNKNOWN: What was the purpose of this smuggling of 
weapons, in general?

UNKNOWN: The weapons were smuggled after the banning of 
the liberation movements have been lifted.  The weapons we 
concentrated on were weapons that were brought in for in 
case the negotiations between the ANC, PAC and the National 
Party would have been abandoned, so that the weapons could 
possibly have been used if the liberation movements wanted 
to return to the liberation struggle.

UNKNOWN: Can you continue on page 129, can you just 
please read to the Committee.

UNKNOWN: From 1991 at Vlakplaas, weapon smuggling was 
investigated, amongst others, on the Mozambique border.  The 
weapons were suspected to be brought through the Komatipoort 
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UNKNOWN: 134

UNKNOWN: as well as over the border fence.  Lieut Chappies Klopper 
was in command of this operation.  He is now a State witness 
and worked for National Intelligence with Willie Nortje.  
There were various members of units, C10 as well as from 
the special task force there at this specific operation.   
If I can mention some of the task force members.  Sarel 
Jansen van Rensburg, Ashley Crookes, Floors De Jonge and 
Andre Laas.  The last three were all under officers.  There 
were furthermore Ovambo Koevoet members. These were members 
who fought in the Koevoet war in Ovamboland, and they were 
under the command of the South African Police in South 
Africa now.  These were Lucas Khimelo and a certain Simon 
Higinbamgwasa - (I don't know how to spell it), as well as 
other Black members, whose names I can't remember.  
	Information was received that weapons were being 
smuggled or would be smuggled for giving them to the ANC and 
the PAC across the border, in a white Ford Cortina vehicle. 
I cannot remember who told me that the weapons would be 
given to the ANC, but I suspected that it was Willie Nortje. 
 	The Koevoet members had an appointment with the 
activists in order to ambush them.   When I speak here of an 
ambush, I don't mean an ambush to kill them.  The purpose 
was to meet them in a police ambush and to arrest them.  We, 
together with the task force members took position next to 
the road in the veld. I can perhaps just explain that our 
purpose was that when Lucas Khimelo met them on the dirt 
road and when they saw the weapons and were paid with cash, 
if they gave this cash money to those people, that would 
have been the sign and we would have jumped out of the 
bushes from the side of the road and arrested them.  In the 
past we already had already had such operations where they 
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UNKNOWN: 135

UNKNOWN: were prosecuted in a normal court.  
	Lucas Khimelo and the other members of Koevoet waited 
in this dirt road.  They had their own vehicle there.  They 
would then meet the weapon smugglers there.  Approximately 
seven o'clock that evening, this vehicle had not arrived.  
The command was given by Willie Nortje that we must retreat 
and we went to Schoemaas, that was the police base close-by 
where we stayed and we went there to rest.  We started 
drinking at the canteen and we used a lot of alcohol.  I was 
under the influence of alcohol during the further events.  
	Later that evening Lucas Khimelo and his members came 
back to Schoemaas.  They then first called Lucas Nortje and 
somebody else to the side and the others of us were later on 
called and we had a meeting.  There were quite many of us, 
of Koevoet members from C10, from Vlakplaas as well as task 
force members and also the local security branch members.  
Later that evening we were told by Lucas Khimelo that him 
and the Koevoet members drove into the smugglers.  When they 
drove into them the smugglers told them to go into a double 
track road because they didn't want to be in the main dirt 
road there, because it was carrying heavy traffic.  Khimelo 
followed them and told us that the smugglers had weapons in 
their car and that they were afraid that they would be 
robbed by these people.  They then decided to eliminate 
these people by shooting them.  Because the police action 
during that stage was sensitive and because C1 Vlakplaas 
used ex-Koevoet members, this evoked a lot of criticism from 
the National Party and it was a problem.  After the 
smugglers have been shot,  Khimelo returned and told us what 
had happened.  First Cronje and Klopper and then us. It was 
then discussed and we planned the operation.
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UNKNOWN: 136

UNKNOWN: Capt Mentz can we stop there please.  Were 
you at all involved in the shootings?

UNKNOWN: No, I wasn't, I was only present, I wasn't 
present there, I was only present afterwards.

UNKNOWN: In other words what you are saying happened 
there, is based on what you heard.

UNKNOWN: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Can you please continue.