Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: ut the leadership today decidedthat they would not come here to answer these questions for you.

CHAIRPERSON: Would he know about that?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: No, I don't know.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Were you aware that at the time the attack on St James took place, that negotiationswere taking place to draft a new constitution for this country?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: Yes, I knew.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Why did you think that the attack at St Jameswas a better way of achieving democracy than those negotiations?

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: was formed to fight, we are still waiting for someone to order us to stopthe fighting. So we were still fighting then up until we had orders to stopthe fighting. I am also sure that you also know that. The struggle was stilltaking place, there was no suspension.

<UNKNOWN>: an I refer youto page 70 of the bundle which is also a press statement from the P

<UNKNOWN>: . In referringto the negotiations that were going on at the time, they say throughout thisperiod the P

<UNKNOWN>: adopted a positive outlook and urged the negotiating partiesto be principled.

<UNKNOWN>: onsequently we played a positive role in the convening ofthe multi-party negotiating forum which ultimately adopted the interim constitutionand paved the way for the democratic election of 1994.

<UNKNOWN>: re they not saying therethat the party in whose name you purported to act, encouraged rather participationin the negotiations, than violent attacks?

THOBELA MLAMBISA: I am denying nothing,it is like it said.

<UNKNOWN>: s I've said before, we were taking orders from our

<UNKNOWN>: ommanders,but we never heard of any suspensions on the armed struggle that was only theduty of the High

<UNKNOWN>: ommander to tell us to stop the fighting. I wouldn't changeanything, I couldn't say anything. Only the

<UNKNOWN>: ommanders would have told us andif we don't obey orders, we will be in trouble.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Thank youMr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: embridge, the P

<UNKNOWN>: took part in negotiations.They were the sort of, could we call it, the mother organisation, but

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: initself was also a known political organisation acting under its own

<UNKNOWN>: ommandersas far as I could gather.

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: itself never negotiated, is that correct?

<UNKNOWN>: DV

<UNKNOWN>: EM

<UNKNOWN>: RIDGE That is correct, as I understand it.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes.Right, thank you.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: The suggestion is merely that in lightof their press statements, that the P

<UNKNOWN>: being the mother organisation, was urgingprincipled action and positive participation then how could it have been theobjective of their military wing to contradict that?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

<UNKNOWN>: sfar as this particular witness is concerned and the limited role that he playedin the matter, he couldn't be said to be aware of all the decisions taken atthe level of the High

<UNKNOWN>: ommand and was merely directly responsible to those whowere ordering him to do what he did. That is as far as it goes, isn't it, asfar as this applicant is concerned?

ADV BEMBRIDGE: Except to the extentwe would suggest that the party itself was encouraging positive action, notnegative.

ADV BEMBRIDGE: I understand.Mr

<UNKNOWN>: rink, are there any questions you wish to put to this witness?

CROSSBY MR BRINK: Not for this applicant, thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman.

<UNKNOWN>: ny re-examination?

MS GOZAADV DE JAGER: Mr Goza, could you kindly at thisstage, formulate exactly for what amnesty is being asked for in respect of whichoffences?

<UNKNOWN>: ecause it is not very clear from the application.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, they are out on bail and we don't know precisely what the charges againstthem are, but I think that is a matter that must be cleared up after you havedealt with the witnesses.

MS GOZA: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairperson, can we perhaps in ouraddress after we have led the various evidence, attend to that aspect? Wouldthat be in order?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Very well. Yes, you may proceed.

ADVARENDSE: Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman, can we move on to applicant Makoma and can I handup the original of his affidavit, marked
Exhibit

<UNKNOWN>: .

CHAIRPERSON: Yes,please. The affidavit of Makoma will go onto the record as
Exhibit

<UNKNOWN>: .

NORMAN ARENDSE: Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman. Thank you Mr

<UNKNOWN>: hairman,if I may proceed to read into the record the affidavit of Gcinikhaya

<UNKNOWN>: hristopherMakoma. "I, the undersigned Gcinikhaya

<UNKNOWN>: hristopher Makoma, do hereby makeoath and say that I am 21 years old and currently serving a sentence of 23 yearsat the Victor Verster prison for eleven counts of murder, attempted murder andthree of the unlawful possession of arms and ammunition arising out of the StJames incident which took place on Sunday, the 25th of July 1993. The factsto which I depose are true and correct and within my personal knowledge, unlessthe context indicates otherwise. I have made an application for amnesty in termsof Section 18 of the

<UNKNOWN>: ct, in respect of the charges of which I was found guiltyas well as the incident relating to the ambush of a police motor vehicle inKhayelitsha. This application however, relates only to the amnesty applicationin respect of the St James church incident.

<UNKNOWN>: t the time of the incident, I was17 years old. I was a member of the Pan

<UNKNOWN>: frican

<UNKNOWN>: ongress and a member of the

<UNKNOWN>: frican People's Liberation

<UNKNOWN>: rmy,

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: . I joined

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: in 1993. I was introducedto Sichomiso Nonxuba by his code name Lester, by Vusi an

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: ommander approximatelythree weeks before the St James attack. I was a member of Vusi's unit. Vusiwas going away for between two to three months and said to me that Lester wasgoing to take over the command of the unit. I met Lester for the first timeapproximately three weeks before the attack. Mkhumbuzi was the only one of theapplicants in this matter whom I knew quite well before the attack. I met Mlambisafor the first time when Lester introduced him to me on the Thursday before theattack, at a house in Macassar. Mlambisa was introduced to me as

<UNKNOWN>: ubrey. I accompaniedNonxuba, Lester and I gave Mlambisa a 9 mm pistol for his protection. When Imet Mlambisa, Nonxuba did not discuss any aspects of the operation. I was madeaware by Vusi that there would be an operation, but at the time the target wasunknown to me. The full compliment who would be involved in the operation metfor the first time on Sunday, 25 July 1993 at the Uluntu shopping centre. ThereNonxuba ordered me and Mlambisa to get a car and Mlambisa and I left together.

<UNKNOWN>: lthough Nonxuba revealed no details of the operation to us, we knew that therewould be an attack.

<UNKNOWN>: fter we met, Mlambisa and I went to

<UNKNOWN>: rossroads and Guguletulooking for a car. We found a car in Guguletu when it was already quite darkand it was after six o'clock. We took this car at gunpoint, after we told thedriver that we were members of the P

<UNKNOWN>: and

<UNKNOWN>: PL

<UNKNOWN>: and that we only wanted to borrowthe car. The driver refused to voluntarily hand the car to us and I heard Mlambisafiring a shot after which we got into the car and drove off. From there, wewent to Langa where we met Mkhumbuzi and Nonxuba at the taxi rank.

<UNKNOWN>: fter Nonxubaand Mkhumbuzi got into the car, Nonxuba gave Mlambisa directions where to drive.Nonxuba told me that I was to be part of the operation, but whilst in the car,he never told me where the operation would take place. I knew that there wereguns and ammunition in the bag which was in the car.

<UNKNOWN>: s we drove, Nonxuba toldmet that I was to go inside the target with him.