Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-03

MR WESSELS: Not with regards to the Webster incident.  And they furthermore decided, this is now Mr Barnard, and I'm not saying you decided, but Mr Barnard decided that when he came to testify here that not only is it Joe Verster and Lafras Luitingh who have to be blamed for this, but that Slang van Zyl will also feel some pressure, because he's the one who put him away for 10 years.  Then the evidence was led concerning the so-called 4 kilograms of nails which was attached to the limpet mine which Slang then would have said took place, but then at a later stage he realised that you are also going to be incriminated by it and now you've got a very serious problem to get amnesty.  Then the evidence was given that: "No, I spoke to Calla about it and Calla then said this is not true, the instruction from Gen Webb was nobody had to be injured or was supposed to be injured."  And in that way Slang will be implicated and you, his friend, will get off.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, this is your version.  I will just give a brief reaction.  What Mr van Zyl and Barnard's relationship was, I'm not quite sure.  The discussion that took place between the two of them, I cannot say about it.  Mr Barnard has not got the ability to influence me that I will incriminate anybody or will see that anybody will be in trouble unnecessarily.
	Secondly I would like to say to you that this so-called deal to which you are referring is not applicable just to me, there are also other people who are involved and also went to the A-G for 204s concerning certain aspects of their evidence.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something, I'm now a bit puzzled based on what your earlier evidence was and I'd just like to clarify it.  What is your evidence with regard to this issue of the nails?  Were you told by Barnard, or can't you remember whether that discussion took place?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I can't remember that the discussion actually took place.  What I'm saying is, if there was a conversation regarding this matter, I would have, in no uncertain terms told him that was not my instruction to put any nails or to kill any people at any stage during this execution of this bomb.

MR LAX: In other words, if I understood - and this is what I understood your evidence to be originally, that you denied to Barnard - in fact you confirmed what you told us.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR LAX: That you denied that this was in fact the intention or that anything like that had happened and that your answer is in line with what he says you said.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's right, yes.

MR LAX: I'm just clarifying, is that your evidence now again?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.  If I reacted, that's how I would have reacted, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to know, just also out of interest, why were you so adamant that the figure wasn't mentioned?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It just sounds ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: If you can't remember the conversation, whether it was 4, 2, 1 1/2 , why are you so adamant that the figure 4 wasn't mentioned?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I will put it to you like this.  A limpet mine weighs one kilogram, to add four kilograms to one kilogram would have resulted in a, or it would have made a large difference in the carrier bag that was used.  It sounds absurd to think that the 4 kilograms of nails will be attached to a 1 kilogram limpet mine.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify this.  His evidence was that he couldn't remember the exact unit of measure, he thought it might have been 4 pounds or 4 kilograms, that was his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: 4 pounds would be less than 2 kilograms.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Or possibly 4 grams.

MR LAX: Did he used pounds or kilograms?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, Sir, I'm not sure about that.

MR WESSELS: Mr Barnard(sic), the point is that you prepared the bomb and that there was no singular nail in the bomb.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct, Mr Wessels.

MR WESSELS: I have no further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Plessis, any questions?

UNKNOWN: I've got no further questions, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR H DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetzee.

MR COETZEE: Mr Botha, there was just one aspect that I want to clear up with you.  During the detention of Mr Barnard in terms of Section 29, did he send a message to you at any time while he was there in detention with regard to Ponti House, the apartment building Ponti, where he told you in the message that they were aware of Ponti, and also that he wasn't going to say anything about Webster.  Can you recall anything like that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes, I recall such a message.

MR COETZEE: And you responded by spreading that information.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR COETZEE: And a while afterwards there was a fire in the Ponti building, do you know about that?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I heard about the fire through channels.

MR COETZEE: Just for the sake of clarity, being put on ice, you were on ice when you were approached to go and detonate the Athlone bomb.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's correct.

MR COETZEE: It was not the complete isolation and disposal of a member while he was on ice?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Briefly one would still be part of the organisation, it was a punitive measure, a cooling off period that they would apply to one.

MR COETZEE: And the money that was received at the Hyperama by Mr Barnard from Mr Luitingh ...(intervention)

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Where was that?

MR COETZEE: At the Hyperama, after the Webster incident.  ... was this personal money from Mr Luitingh?  How did you understand, what was the origin of the money?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: We were paid in cash in envelopes.  This was done according to the same principle.

MR COETZEE: Yes, but where did the money come from?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It must have come from the Defence Force, it had to have been State money, that was my inference.

MR COETZEE: Then just another aspect regarding Mr Verster's apparent ignorance regarding who shot Webster and his subsequent enquiry.  The idea that was fostered with you during training, was it through possible disinformation that you would be protected if something that you had done were ever to be exposed?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It was one of the options which was mentioned.

MR COETZEE: I have nothing further, thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR COETZEE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr du Plessis.

UNKNOWN: Nothing, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR P DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Martini?

MR MARTINI: Thank you, Chairperson, a few questions.
	Mr Botha I'm not an expert in bombs, I just need to know, once this limpet bomb is activated, does it become a very dangerous object to drive around with or carry around or fiddled with?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: By nature of the situation, Mr Martini.

MR MARTINI: Sorry, by nature of the situation you mean by activating it?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: My answer is yes.

MR MARTINI: Now a limpet bomb, is it put together with screws or - are there any screws in a limpet bomb?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I think what keeps the mine together is that there are six screws which keep this mine together.

MR MARTINI: Now just when Mr Bizos was cross-examining you he seemed to have a difficulty, your evidence is not that you were meant to go with on this project in order to press the remote control, is that correct?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR MARTINI: Your purpose was really as an expert to activate the mine.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: To arm it.

MR MARTINI: To arm it.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR MARTINI: Correct.  I mean a lay person without any knowledge of bombs, or any person not trained in bombs wouldn't know how to activate that.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No, Sir.

MR MARTINI: And would you agree it would be extremely dangerous for somebody that doesn't know much about bombs, to attempt to activate it?