Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

REV MBANGULA: Yes I wouldn't say they refused as such in my understanding.  I think there was a feeling that let not legal action be taken at that time in particular.

MP PIGOU: But I mean this is a situation where you received Kenny Kgase in a pretty bad physical condition, having been badly beaten and the medical evidence shows that he was very badly beaten, and yet it seems to be that from day to day people sort of have got this sort of manyana manyana attitude that we can wait until tomorrow.  Now wasn't there a sense of urgency and wasn't that the reason why Bishop Verryn and Bishop Storey were saying that we need to move on this issue, we need to take legal action because our other efforts, by this stage we had gone through Dr Motlana, and maybe some other people had tried as well.  Wasn't there a sense of urgency to do something about this.  Perhaps you can explain to me why, did you not have this sense of urgency?

REV MBANGULA: I think there was a sense of urgency, it's true and the fact that immediately the report was brought to my notice I took action to try and consult with Bishop Storey on several occasions, Reverend Paul Verryn because we were concerned, but I only was the superintendent of the circuit, Bishop Storey is Bishop Storey, and I think a lot of other things he did on his own, therefore I cannot be in a position to account for every other meetings where he has been there or not.

MP PIGOU: You had been at that meeting that day with Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and I would like you to tell us a little bit about that meeting.  Did you question or ask about the whereabouts of Stompie Seipei at all during the course of that meeting?

REV MBANGULA: We asked first about the reason why these young people were removed from the  house and Mrs Mandela did agree that yes they were removed and I think whilst you were listening to that, Zinzi said I think it's important to explain why and the issue of them being sodomised by Rev Verryn was brought to light and then in that meeting again I think I remember Pas asking them where were they.  Well I thought that these young people were alive, were safe and sound. Yes there was already a rumour that Stompie had been alive at that time and we had no particular way in which, for me in particular, I could ask where is Stompie, because that was the rumour at that time.

MP PIGOU: Did you ask to see the boys?  The young men.

REV MBANGULA: No, no.

MP PIGOU: Could you tell us why not.  You knew what the condition of Kenneth Kgase was, were you not concerned about the medical condition of the others?

REV MBANGULA: I think I did not see Kgase at that time.  At that stage I didn't see, I did hear that he was somehow ...(indistinct) but I did not in particular ask to see them, no.  I was happy when I was told that yes they were there, they were going to be released.

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me Piers, how much more?  Thank you.

MP PIGOU: On page 4 of the same Crisis Committee Annexure C, there is a reference to the Crisis Committee saying that Mrs Mandela was contemplating holding a press conference in which she will publicly announce that she is resigning from the ANC and that she had repeated this to yourself, Father Mkhatswa and Bishop Buthelezi. Is that a fair reflection of what happened also during that meeting?

REV MBANGULA: No I don't remember that.

MP PIGOU: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Semenya.

MR SEMENYA: I do not have questions for the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Any along there?  Will you please identify..

MR JORDI: Yes.  My name is Peter Jordi, I appear for the Chili family.  I'm going to describe to you certain events and I'd like you to tell me whether you can recollect whether they are properly described.  Dudu Chili says that on day after the abduction which must have been on the 30th of December, although she is not certain about the date.  Two youths approached here at home and informed here that youths had been taken from Reverend Verryn's home or the manse by compulsion to Winnie Mandela's house, and that they had not been brought back.  She then reported this allegation to the Soweto Women's Committee which was meeting that day and steps then were then taken to inform other people of these allegations and I understand Mrs Ngaluza was informed of these allegations as was Mrs Sisulu and ultimately I understand you got the information as well through this channel.  Is that correct?

REV MBANGULA: Just again to sketch the sequence.  In my presentation, from the 7th of December, the 5th of January I was not in Johannesburg.  Yes the information came to me through the Women's' League because of the pre-school connection that we had but it was later than that time.

MR JORDI: When you say the Women's' League.  The Women's' League as I understand was not really functioning at that time, you mean the Soweto Women's' Committee or perhaps FEDRO, is that correct?

REV MBANGULA: FEDRO I mean FEDRO.

MR JORDI: Right thank you. No further questions.

MR RICHARD: Mr Chair, thank you, my surname is Richard and my client is Jerry Vusimuzi Richardson.  Reverend my client's version is that it is correct that the young men and one youth to be precise were taken from the Methodist Mission house by force and held against their will and that is the subject matter of his amnesty application. In the circumstances I say that when you say that these youths and young men were held in the custody of Mrs Madikizela- Mandela, the word custody correctly and accurately describes the situation that you were dealing with.  Is that correct?

REV MBANGULA: Okay.

MR RICHARD: Now it goes further.  The reason that you were given was that were being held for their protection, do I understand you correctly?

REV MBANGULA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: In other words held by way of force or coercion or persuasion.  Correct?

REV MBANGULA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Alex Boraine.

DR BORAINE: Thank you Chairperson, I want to ask questions about your visit to Mrs Mandela's home and then also what took place at the subsequent meeting that you referred to at
3 o'clock that same afternoon when you made your report and where at least some of the Crisis Committee members were present, possibly not all.  Now I must say I'm still very puzzled.  You in response to a question said yes you didn't see Kenny, but that you had heard that he was badly assaulted and you asked Mrs Mandela where these young men are, according to your statement.  Now you ask her, knowing that one who has escaped has been badly assaulted and she tells you that they were safe and sound to use your exact words.  On what basis were you able to accept that assurance knowing as you say earlier that there were very deep concerns in the community about the abduction from the Methodist Mans that one of them has come back and has told dreadful stories about being assaulted.  She tells you that they, to use your words were safe and sound.  How was it possible for you to accept that assurance?

REV MBANGULA: Mr Chairperson, I think the nature of our visit at Mrs Mandela in particular, was a pastoral visit.  We did not go to Mrs Mandela to interrogate her about what we heard as the rumour.  We had gone there to try and solicit, if that's the right English word her understanding of the concern of the Church in particular about those young people who were in the custody of the Church and now have been taken and also to understand why the allegations about Rev Paul.  At that particular moment I don't remember, I haven't seen Kenny myself, I have heard because Kenny was released on the 10th of January, I had that Kenny was badly injured and so forth but I haven't seen him myself.  Therefore really there was no need for us to actually hope as far as that was concerned.