Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-05

MR HOCKEY: There were suggestions that people were identified as they were leaving the meeting that evening, there were suggestions that the people, well Mr van Zyl, Mr Calla Botha and Gakkie Hardien, when they were standing at the back of the building, that they saw Mr Williams coming out of the building.  Now did Mr Williams at any stage leave the building towards the back, according to your knowledge?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No.

MR HOCKEY: Was Mr Ferndale at that meeting at any point that evening?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: He wasn't there at all.

MR HOCKEY: Did you see Mr Ferndale there?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, he wasn't there at all that evening.

MR HOCKEY: So the suggestion that Mr Ferndale could have been identified leaving the building that evening, can't be true?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It's not true.

MR HOCKEY: Thank you, that's all questions I have, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HOCKEY

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, do you have any re-examination?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, I do.
	Now I want to place some facts before the Committee, so that Mr du Plessis may consider apologising to you for what he put to you.  Firstly, this business of being got together by an attorney and making statements to him in a conspiracy in order to falsely implicate his clients and those that put on the bomb directly.  Would you please have a look at the statements, I'll merely read out the dates and the times and who took the oath, in order to show that the statements were really taken by members of the Police Force from ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ... on that Mr Bizos, I think each statement contains a police number, a docket number.

GEORGE BIZOS: A docket number and everything else, but also that it was sworn to before a police officer from Brixton.  I'll just put this record for the attention of the Committee.  First of all, that Shanaaz Limera, she gave her statement to Sgt Lloyd of Brixton Murder and Robbery, as did Naziema Mohamed, also on the 30/10/90.  The first one is to be found at page 210, the second is to be found at page 227.  I am referring to bundle D, Mr Chairman, the pages on which the oath is sworn.  It will appear that some of the statements on that very day, the same day Mr Chairman, were taken by, also by Lloyd is Miranda Abrahams, which appears on page 221.  And Mr Chairman, the statements of Peter Williams was taken seven months before, Mr Chairman, this alleged conspiracy took place, in which his presence and the presence of others and the holding of a second meeting is dealt with, which blows up completely the suggestion that there was a conspiracy in October, a year later, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think this is argument now.

GEORGE BIZOS: Let me just place the facts.  That there was a statement on the 19/3/90, Mr Chairman, and the contents of that document are consistent with the witness' evidence.  Then we have W/O Rossouw who took the witness' statement, Mr Chairman, and you'll find the statement at page 221.  Regina Isaacs, which you will find at page 223 and Fatima Omar, which you will find at page 225.
	Now can you recall whether there were police officers that took your statement down, a police officer took your statement?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I cannot recall, but I knew there were a couple of people with this legal guy from Jo'burg.

GEORGE BIZOS: You didn't know that they were police officers?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did they ask you questions and did they record the statement?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I recorded the statement.  I spoke from memory at the time.

GEORGE BIZOS: You spoke from memory at the time that they recorded the statement.  And then Mr Chairman, we have the Stevens statement taken by the Security Police in Cape Town on 14/7/90, we'll find that at page 230, and Terrence Coetzee on the 18th April '90, which you will find at 234.
	Now I'll go onto another topic, Mr Chairman.

MR P DU PLESSIS: Sorry Mr Chairman, can I just say that I never disputed the fact that these statements were taken by policemen, etcetera, that's not my argument.  I had to point out certain inconsistencies in the statements and especially some specific aspects dealt with by Mr Martini.  So I'm not saying that these people forged these statements and that the police were never present and that these statements were never taken up in a police docket.  That's not my argument.  Just to make it clear to Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Mr Chairman, it's not something that I can leave in the air.  Mr du Plessis said that "after you learnt of the Van Zyl and Gakkie's involvement in the Harms Commission, then you decided in October for the first time, to talk about there being another meeting".  That is contradicted by Mr Williams' statement of March 1990, Mr Chairman, and I will leave it to Mr du Plessis to take the matter further during these proceedings or not.
	Now we have seen Gakkie here and he said that he was never afraid of being arrested because he had the protection of the police and the government, do you recall that evidence?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I recall that evidence.

GEORGE BIZOS: When he was making admissions to you and speaking out in the community and making threats, did he have that same attitude?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: Exactly the same attitude.

GEORGE BIZOS: And were there any substantive facts which were known to you, which made you believe that his confidence that nobody would do anything to him, was well founded?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: To an extent he was bragging about it.  Surely there were police informants within the community, no-one picks him up.  Why wouldn't it be?

GEORGE BIZOS: Well we have also heard that although he made a statement and he admitted it in 1989, he told us that nobody has asked him about it, he was not prosecuted and he has been leading the life of a free person.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: So his assumption that he had the protection of the police, at least for some of the, that early period, was well justified?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: It was justified, Sir.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  In relation to his - your reconciling with Gakkie, how do you view Gakkie's continued employment at R1 500 a month doing unspecified work?  Do you think that he's become reconciled or has he broken away from the loyalty he felt to Mr van Zyl?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: He's still loyal to Mr van Zyl and he's, still today he doesn't realise that he's being used.  Or he realises, but he doesn't want to accept it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  You said that you were afraid of the Security Police, you haven't in part answered the question, did you have to be a violent person or a bomber to be afraid of the Security Police during the apartheid years?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No, you just had to be an activist, be associated with the Mass Democratic Movement and they would pick you up for no reason, you could be detained, you could even disappear.

GEORGE BIZOS: You were also asked rather forcefully, by Mr du Plessis, what happened to the documents of the Youth Congress and you said you were not the secretary.  Was this a professional organisation, did you have filing cabinets or did you keep agendas on file and record?

OESMAN ALEXANDER: No Sir, we did not.

GEORGE BIZOS: Would you like to see their documents?  They had files.

OESMAN ALEXANDER: I'm sure they had.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS