Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-11-21

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: I left that house officially at the end of May 1989, that gives you 14 days, well 13 days before the raid, seeing as it happened just after midnight on the ...(indistinct)

MR VISSER: Did you leave the house unofficially earlier than that?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: No, I did not.

MR VISSER: Well why did you then qualify by saying officially?  That gave the impression that you left before, but not altogether.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Officially because we were renting the house and we had to sub-let the main house and the sub-letting was done in terms of a lease and that lease is an official document, I therefore, officially I left on the 30th of May.

MR VISSER: Alright, in that sense.  Now were you and Mr Hamlyn friends before you went to Botswana?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: No, I did not know Mike before I left the country.

MR VISSER: So you met him in Botswana, is that correct?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And did you meet him as part of this close-knit society that Ms Anderson was referring to?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Yes, I did.

MR VISSER: You also said something in paragraph 3 and that is that there was a member of the Botswana Special Branch who lived next door to you which would have made it impossible for you to carry out any activities from the house in which you and Mike were living.  Is that what you intended to say?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Mr Chair, with your permission, I should like to elaborate slightly on this paragraph.  It has been variously alleged that at that house MK activities were carried out.  In fact there's a second-rate author by the name of Peter Stiff who wrote a book about the South African Special Forces operations in which he talks about that house and in which he says, number one, that it was a safe house, number two, that it was a - that Mike was an MK Intelligence Operative, that I was an MK Operative and various assorted bits of nonsense.  A safe house in Intelligence Community is not necessarily in the first instance a house.  It could be a house, it could also be a ...(indistinct)...(intervention)

MR VISSER: I'm sorry, I'm going to stop you.  Your answers to do not relate to the questions which I'm asking you Mr Abrahamse.  With great respect, if your Learned Legal Representative wished to lead you on that, he should have done so in evidence-in-chief.  I'm going to ask you to restrict yourself to the questions which I'm asking you and I'm asking you strictly this question.  Are you saying that because there was a member of the Botswana Security police living next door to you, that for that reason there could not be any activities undertaken or performed from that house, is that what you're saying in that paragraph?  That's all I'm asking you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what else could he be saying, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Well, alright, if it's obvious.

CHAIRPERSON: Well he's confirmed the contents of his statement, didn't he?

MR VISSER: What activities are you referring to there?  What did you have in mind?  And I don't want to know about Stiff and ...

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Mr Chair, I think I've already answered that question when I spoke about activities, I mentioned a safe house, I mentioned MK activities, so it's clear what I'm talking about.

MR VISSER: Thank you.  Thank you, that's all I want to know.

MR BERGER: But Chairperson, with respect, my Learned Friend asked for an answer which Mr Abrahamse was elaborating upon and then my Learned Friend then cuts him short because it's not the answer he wants.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger if Mr Visser didn't beat me to it, I would have.  The question was not directed at finding out the definition of a safe house, etc.  The point of the matter is, he was asked about the contents of his statement and he was asked a question about it.  I don't think Mr Visser was correct to stop him and deal with it the way he did, but the fact of the matter is, the bottom line is that the question was not being answered properly and simply.  Now let us stop this niggling asides and let's get down to the business please.  Mr Visser will you continue?

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.  Did you know, apart from Ms Anderson and apart from perhaps Mr Saloojee, did you know MK members while you were in Botswana in June 1985?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: At the time I knew many people.  I only learned subsequently after 1985, which ones of them were MK members.  At the time of the raid, I only knew Muff and her then boyfriend as being MK members.

MR VISSER: Can I make absolutely certain of what you've just told the Committee?  After the raid, you heard that some of the people that you knew and that you had contact with in Gaberone, in Botswana in June 1985, were in fact MK members, although you did not realise it at the time.  Is that what you're saying?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Just let me correct you first of all.  I did not say that I heard, I said I learned subsequently.

MR VISSER: Alright, okay.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: I'll give you one example.  One example was a chap by the name of Chris, whom I met in the camps in Angola as an instructor.  I had met him by chance in Botswana and I didn't know that he was MK.  Another one was Thabang Makwetla, whom I had met in Botswana.  I didn't know that Thabang was MK or was not MK.  I learned that in 1989 when I met Thabang in Zambia.

MR VISSER: Can I repeat my question then in this way, or let me ask you this.  Is the way that you found out that some of the people that you knew and socialised with prior to the raid in Gaberone were members of MK, when you met them and they told you that, is that how you learned of some of these members having been MK members at the time?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: They did not necessarily have to tell me that.  I mean I just gave you an example of somebody that I met in the camp as an instructor.  He didn't have to tell me he's an MK member if he's instructing people in military training.

CHAIRPERSON: He says that at the time of the raid in 1985 he only knew of two MK members and he gave the names.

MR VISSER: Chairperson would you - let me put it to you then.  I want to refer you to paragraph 7 and I'm going to read to you what you say.
"Having lived in Botswana for a period of two and a half years before the raid, I was familiar with some of those who were killed.  I can positively state that none of them were involved in any way in military operations."
Now you've just told us that you knew other people who were in fact MK's but you knew nothing about it until you learned about it later.

CHAIRPERSON: So?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Mr Chair ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Wait, I just want to understand the question first.

MR VISSER: Well, so Chairperson, I'm going to put to the witness that the possibility pertains also to these people, that they could have been MK members without him knowing that.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're questioning what he says here.  Well let's go ahead and put it to him.

MR VISSER: Well if - I want to put to you - let me put it to you this way.  There was no point in any MK members going about publicly announcing the fact that they were MK members, because they were at risk.  Would you agree with that?

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: It depends.  I mean, you - Chris Hani went around and made it clear that he was an MK member, he was at risk.  He made it clear.  It depends on the circumstances, it depends on the situation, it depends on a whole range of factors.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Abrahamse, I'm going to stop you now.  Look at paragraph 7, your last sentence of paragraph 7.
"I can positively state that none of them were involved in any way in military operations."
You talk about those who were killed on that night.

URIAL ABRAHAMSE: Some of those, Mr Chair and I mentioned the three who are the some.  I mentioned to you earlier about Mike Hamlyn, about Thami Mnyele and about Ahmed Geer.