Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-05-20

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: No I came up because - yes down to the, the foyer is down the 7th floor is up, yes.

MR PRETORIUS: In the foyer did you observe Gary Kruser?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Well in the foyer, I was not in the foyer I was just passing through the foyer outside the building.

MR PRETORIUS: Well whilst passing through the foyer outside the building did you observe Gary Kruser?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I cannot be sure whether I've seen him at that time.

MR PRETORIUS: Did you then, from the foyer, proceed along Plein Street towards the corner of King George and Plein Street and from there up the corner towards De Villiers Street?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: From there as I went out, I think there are a lot of other guards around there and then generally we were just moving up and down that Plein Street to the side of King George and back to the Plein Street.

MR PRETORIUS: Did you move up with King George Street right to the corner of King George and De Villiers Street?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes that I did.

MR PRETORIUS: And when you came to the corner of King George and De Villiers Street you then observed the marchers?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I think maybe I must clarify this other fact because now when I went down up to the corner of King George and De Villiers Street, it was my respond to the people who were trying to (indistinct) there are some other group of marchers which are approaching from behind, that is from De Villiers Street.  That is the only time that I went up to that corner of De Villiers and King George.

CHAIRPERSON: The reason why you went there?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: That is the reason why I went there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR PRETORIUS: Now when you got to the corner of King George and De Villiers Street where were the marchers, what did you observe?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: The marchers they were just approaching that junction between King George and De Villiers Street and I cannot state exactly where were they because this people were in motion and it would be very difficult for me to state exactly where were they at that particular point.

MR PRETORIUS: I'm not asking you to point an exact point, what I'm trying to understand is the marchers were then in De Villiers Street, somewhere between the corners of Wanderers Street and King George Street?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Chief I think this was quite a very big group and it was not moving simultaneously like that.  It was just a group which was moving, others they were dancing, others they were doing all sorts of things so it was very difficult for me to have, monitor each and every step as they are approaching but the fact is that they were coming to the direction of Shell House.

MR PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman my attention has been drawn to the fact that it's already past one.

CHAIRPERSON: Quite right.

MR PRETORIUS: My apologies for that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We'll take the adjournment now and resume in an hours time.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, so that no one is taken by surprise there is something that we want to convey to the committee.  At this stage, and that is Mr Chairman that after consultation with two of our clients, the eleventh and the thirteenth applicants that is Mr Magagula and Mr Mtshemla, we withdraw their applications for amnesty Mr Chairman and we will wish to place the reason on record in order to avoid any misunderstandings.  The reason is that they maintain that their evidence in the inquest that they shot in the air to repel an attack at the entrance of Lancet Hall is correct and that is the reason why we will not ask the committee to be concerned in relation to those two applicants.  We have been persistently asking Mr Chairman the order of witnesses that we may expect from  objectors, we've had an indication of one witness which helps up to a very small point, but we would appreciate it Mr Chairman in the interests of accelerating the process if we are given a list of witnesses and the order that they intend calling them as we did in relation to them and I also want to make clear Mr Chairman as to what sort of further evidence we are going to ask the committee to hear will depend to a very large extent of what evidence is led.  Up till now we've heard in the main conditional statements if they do testify.  We are interested in accelerating the process and we would appreciate the co-operation of our learned friends.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not going to ask them to disclose to me now who they are likely to call or when.  Please understand we're engaged in a serious business and we all have to co-operate and if there's a reluctance on your part to disclose then I think your reasons should be made known to Mr Bizos as to why you are reluctant to disclose who is going to be called to give evidence.  If your problems are of a logistic nature and you don't know when your witness will be available, then at least you can tell then who the witness is and when he is likely to be available.  I would appreciate that.  I thought that on Monday morning that time will be usefully gained or usefully occupied in at least sorting out that problem.  I don't want to raise that now, I'd like us to proceed with the evidence and I appeal to counsel to sort that out and I don't want reasons now as to why you haven't been able to sort it out.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair may I just indicate we have indicated a number of witnesses which we intend to be called.  There are 7 people on the list, it has been given through - oh but the names are available, I've got the list with me.  Apparently there was a typing error, it hasn't been given through but the list is available.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

GEORGE BIZOS: None of those are objectors Mr Chairman, we are told that there will be objectors.

CHAIRPERSON: If there are going to be any objectors, even we in the committee would like to know beforehand who they're likely to be so that if there is any reading and preparation we may ourselves be prepared for that.

MR DORFLING: There are indeed one injured person on that list and also two families of deceased peoples relatives on there as objectors, it does appear on the list.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I think what they're talking about are independent witnesses and not people directly involved in the events as parties.

MR DORFLING: Those names are also reflected on this list.  There are indeed independent witnesses, an objector as an injured person as well as objectors in the sense of relatives of deceased people.

CHAIRPERSON: When you get that list Mr Bizos you will have to make up your mind as to what you want to do.  May I remind you that you are still under your former oath please.  Please proceed.

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: (s.u.o.)

MR PRETORIUS: (cont)
	Thank you Honourable Chairman.  Mr Mangena just to proceed to where we were immediately before the lunch adjournment.  You were on the 7th floor, from the 7th floor you went down to the foyer, from the foyer you went down in Plein Street in the direction of King George Street then you walked up King George Street up to a stage when you were on the corner of King George and De Villiers Street.  Do you recall that?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: Yes I recall that.

MR PRETORIUS: Now whilst you were on the corner of King George and De Villiers Street, you saw marcher approaching in De Villiers Street from the direction of Wanderers Street.  Is that correct?

MATHEDI SAMUEL MANGENA: I think to the - my best recollection is that I saw the marchers whilst they were at De Villiers Street, not Wanderers Street.

MR PRETORIUS: That is exactly what I put to you Mr Mangena, I said they were in De Villiers Street approaching from the direction of Wanderers Street, so they were busy approaching down De Villiers Street from Wanderers Street to King George Street.  Is that correct?