Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-19

MR BERGER: Am I correct if I say that AmaButho is the Zulu word for warriors?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: And when warriors went into battle,  was there no system of dividing them up into smaller units, or did the warriors just fight as one unit?

MR MKHIZE: It all depends on the leader.  He would be the one to decide how his men would go into battle.

MR BERGER: And you as the leader of the AmaButho, did you divide your men into smaller units and each smaller unit, having a leader, who was ultimately responsible to you?

MR MKHIZE: No, there were only two groups.

MR BERGER: There were two groups of warriors in kwaMadala, is that what you are saying?

MR MKHIZE: No, I said there was only one group of AmaButho.

MR BERGER: I am not talking about on the night of the massacre, perhaps you think I am referring to that.

MR MKHIZE: No, then there was just one group.

MR BERGER: One group of AmaButho in the hostel and there were no sub-leaders, the only Commander, it was you and the AmaButho?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And there were no Regional Commanders, Area Commanders, Block Commanders, Unit Commanders?

MR MKHIZE: No, there were none.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I see it is one o'clock, perhaps this would be appropriate.

CHAIRPERSON: We will come back at half past one.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Berger?   Let me warn you that we intend to rise for a short adjournment at about half past three again, so do bear that in mind.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, I will.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, if I can just interrupt, some of the people that weren't here this morning, arrived shortly after we started this morning.  I can just inform you Mr Chairperson, that the following persons are here now as well, applicant 10, Tshabangu and Sipho Buthelezi.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, and in the meantime we have established that Sonny Michael Mkwanazi is apparently in Sasolburg prison and we still don't know where Tebogo Magubane is.

CHAIRPERSON: I will deal with Buthelezi and Tshabangu in due course.  Proceed Mr Berger.

MS TANZER: Chairperson, if I may interrupt for a second as well.  It has come to my attention during the lunch break, that my client, Mr Nosenga has been receiving threats from within and from warders, which is frightening him and the whole aspect of Truth and Reconciliation is now intimidating him.
	I just want to place on record that he has been receiving threats and if the Commission can provide some kind of legal witness protection for him, as he is feeling endangered and intimidated right now.

CHAIRPERSON: That is a serious matter.  Who is threatening your client?

MS TANZER: Chairperson, I have been unable to gather exactly which persons, because that also intimidates him, he doesn't want to point finger, because obviously the threat is that real, but he has since yesterday and now since the statement has been released, been receiving threats that is making him scared for his life.
	He has been receiving threats at the prison, but he has also been receiving threats I understand, here in this, well in his, in the other room.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say that he is receiving threats from the prison warders?

MS TANZER: I did Chairperson.  He just used the word warders, he would not point exactly which ones he was talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: Are these threats, are they only come from the prison warders?

MS TANZER: Chairperson, as I said to you, it was hard to get this information out of him.  He is just sitting there, very scared and basically has indicated that you know, he has received threats and he is scared.  He indicated it is from the warders, it is from locals around here.

CHAIRPERSON: From what?

MS TANZER: From locals around, people you know around.  Mr Chairperson, it seems that there have been various threats, it is not one or two threats.

CHAIRPERSON: But when you say from locals around, what do you mean?

MS TANZER: As I said Mr Chairperson, he refuses to divulge too much information for the very reason that, and pointing fingers, that it could - it scared him.  It has intimidated him, he would not even point to me, I asked him to point out who is threatening him, he refused to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr (indistinct) of the TRC Investigative Unit, here?

MR MAPOMA: No sir, I did not meet him, but the person who is here, I know is Mr Jan Olckers.  That is Jan Olckers, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What are your full names sir?

MR OLCKERS: My name is Johan Olckers.

CHAIRPERSON: I gather that you are attached to the TRC Investigative Unit?

MR OLCKERS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: We have been informed by the legal representative of one of the applicants, Andries Matanzima Nosenga, that he has been and continues to receive threats and that he desires to be put onto the witness protection scheme.
	Would you on behalf of this Committee, investigate the matter in the presence of his legal representative, and then come back and report to us before we rise this afternoon?  If you could also after you have been investigating the matter, indicate to us what your recommendations are.

MR OLCKERS: Yes, I will do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr Nosenga here?

MR OLCKERS: He is placed in a room, in a back room, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you convey to your client, that we have directed that an investigation be made into the allegations with a view to determining whether or not, he should be placed on a witness protection scheme as he requires and that he should cooperate with the Investigator and to that extent, you will be excused from remaining in attendance until that matter has been sorted out.  Hopefully you will report back to us before we rise, so that we can resolve the matter today if possible.

MS TANZER: Thank you, I will do that, he is actually listening right now, he is watching the television, so he is hearing the message.  I will convey to him though personally, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr Berger, I gather that you intend cross-examining this applicant on the affidavit, on the sworn statement by Mr Nosenga?

MR BERGER: I do Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Does it matter that his legal representative will not be here at the moment, probably doesn't, does it?

MR BERGER: I don't think so Chairperson, because I am not going to challenge anything that is in the statement, I am rather going to confront the witness with it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.  What is the feeling of other counsel?

MR DA SILVA: I don't have any objection Mr Chairman.

MS PRETORIUS: Neither do I, Mr Chairman.

MR STRYDOM: I have no objection Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have an objection?

MS TANZER: I have none.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems to me that this is a matter which has to be attended to as soon as possible.  Very well, you will be excused Ma'am.

MS TANZER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you sir.  I understand Mr Berger, that you are very anxious to proceed, please proceed sir.

BHEKINKOSI MKHIZE: (still under oath)

MR BERGER: (continued)   Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Mkhize, did you know that Victor Keswa was a member of the IFP youth brigade?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Do you know a person by the name of Hunter Ndlovu?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, I know him.

MR BERGER: Was he also a member of the IFP youth brigade?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Was he involved in the attack on Boipatong?

MR MKHIZE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Is he still alive?

MR MKHIZE: Yes, he is still alive.

MR BERGER: Where is he?  You don't want to answer that question?

INTERPRETER: May the question please be repeated?

MR BERGER: Where is Hunter Ndlovu now?

MR MKHIZE: I don't know where he is, I only learnt that he is somewhere around town, residing somewhere thereabout.

MR BERGER: Themba Mabote and Sipho Lukhozi were also members of the IFP youth brigade, is that correct?

MR MKHIZE: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Paphi, did you know someone by that name, Paphi?