Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Moosa, are there any questions that you wish to put to this witness?

MR MOOSA: No questions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MOOSA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mshe?

MR MSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR MSHE: QUESTIONED BY MR MSHE

MR MSHE: Mr Nofomela, you were asked by your legal representative as to whether you did the poisoning of the dogs, and you said no.  Would you remember that?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... telling this Committee the truth?

WITNESS:   That I am the one that gave the dogs poison?  I gave them meat which was poisoned.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible)

WITNESS:   It is possible that I did not understand the question properly.  I threw the poisoned meat, and Joe also threw poisoned meat.

MR MSHE: The question was put to you by my learned friend that did you give the poisoned meat to the dogs, and you said no.

WITNESS:   It was probably a mistake on my part.  The truth is that I did that.

MR MSHE: Now, how many times was Mr Mxenge stabbed?

WITNESS:   I cannot remember, Sir.

MR MSHE: /Less than

MR MSHE: Less than 20 times?

WITNESS:   It's possible, Sir.

MR MSHE: More than 20 times?

WITNESS:   There too, Sir, I cannot dispute it.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... testified before the Harms Commission about this very incident.  Do you remember that?

WITNESS:   I remember, Sir.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... tell the Harms Commission about the number of stabbings?

WITNESS:   I cannot remember what I said.

MR MSHE: Now, can you tell this Committee what was - or how long did it take you - by you I am referring to all of you who were on the scene.  How long did it take you to stab this man and to see to it that he is dead?  What was the duration?

WITNESS:   I cannot say, but it was a long time.

MR MSHE: Are you in a position that you can estimate the time?

WITNESS:   I would be lying, Sir.  It was a long time.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... Mr Nofomela, as you are seated here you have been remembering and recalling mentally what happened.  Did it take you an hour, or more than an hour, or less than an hour please?

WITNESS:   It's possible that it was less than an hour, Sir.

MR MSHE: Now, I want you to tell this Committee - you've told us about the stabbings.  Tell us what happened finally before you could leave the scene to Mr Mxenge.

WITNESS:   I remember him lying there when we were going to leave.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... was his throat not being cut with a knife?

WITNESS:   I did not look at that.  I cannot give evidence to that effect.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... open with a knife?

WITNESS:   Sir, I did not take note.

MR MSHE: Just a moment, Mr Chairman.  (Pause)  Now, let's go

MR MSHE: /back to

MR MSHE: back to the question of the money you were given.  What was it for?  What did you understand by this R1 000,00?

WITNESS:   When I was going to be given it by Captain Dirk Coetzee he said it was because - Skoon was giving us the money in appreciation for what we had done.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... responded to this question from my learned friend that before the killing you did not know that you were going to be given money, but my question to you is, did you in your own mind expect any form of compliment for the job?

WITNESS:   I was expecting to proceed with the order which I was given, and whatever was going to happen thereafter I was not anticipating or expecting.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... expect some form of a promotion in the police force?

WITNESS:   Sir, as I said this was the first thing I had done something like this.  I did not know what would happen after something like this.  I did not have any expectations.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... the money received in the Mxenge incident did you ever receive money before for a job well done?

WITNESS:   I cannot remember, Sir.

MR MSHE: What are you saying really?  Are you leaving out the possibility that you did get some money in the past?

WITNESS:  No, I had not received it before, Sir, and I cannot remember being given any money.  This is the first thing that I had done, and I had not been given any money in advance.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... you were not given, or is your answer that you can't remember?

WITNESS:   I cannot remember, Sir.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... can't remember in your evidence, Mr Nofomela, perhaps you should try to take your mind back

MR MSHE: /to some

MR MSHE: to some of these incidents.  Are you saying that you are not able to remember as to whether - or let me put it to you this way.  Mr Mxenge, was he your first victim?

WITNESS:  As I had said the reason I cannot remember having received money is that there was nothing else similar to this that I had done prior to this.  That is why I am saying that I cannot remember receiving any money.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... anything.  If you had never killed anybody, and you are sure that you had never killed anybody, then it's not a question of whether you can't remember if you had been paid for having killed anybody.  Straight away you would say that since you had never killed anybody you had never received any payment.  There's no question of, "I can't remember.

WITNESS:   I am sorry, Sir.

MR MSHE: In your application, page 2 thereof, paragraph (e), you state the following.

MR MSHE: "I was following the orders of my commander, Captain Dirk Coetzee.  Such operations were regarded as necessary in the type of war we were fighting."

MR MSHE: "In the type of war we were fighting."  Do you recall that in your application?  Now, what type of war was this you were fighting?

WITNESS:   Sir, Vlakplaas, when you get there and you are told about people from political parties like the ANC and PAC and others, you are told that these are people who fought with the Security Branch that you are now part of, and you are told that they are from the ANC, telling us what the ANC and PAC are like, and you would find that you are in between because you are also part of them, you are fighting with them, and you are part of the

MR MSHE: /people that

MR MSHE: people that are fighting at Vlakplaas.  So in that explanation I am saying that I ... (incomplete - end of Side B, Tape 2) ... including the ANC and the PAC.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... were you told about all this you have just told us?  Is it upon your arrival at Vlakplaas, or later during your stay at Vlakplaas?

WITNESS:   You get told these things at Vlakplaas not at any specific time.  There are the people like the commanders who would tell you that, "Now you are in such and such a place, you will do certain things," and telling you how bad the person is that you are supposed to be fighting, and then you would believe that what you are doing is justified, because this person is as bad as they have made them out to be.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... when were you told about this ANC and all?

WITNESS:   I was told at Vlakplaas.  I cannot remember exactly when.

MR MSHE: (Inaudible) ... believe in what you were told then?

WITNESS:   Yes, Sir.

MR MSHE: Were you ever trained or told before about the type of war referred to, and the fighting between the Government and the ANC?  Were you ever trained along these lines?

WITNESS:   Sir, training was after Colonel de Kock's time, after Dirk - was during Colonel de Kock's time, after Captain Coetzee had left.  He would show us videos showing you how bad things were and what tactics you were to use.  In the time of Captain Dirk Coetzee there was no training.  You would be told theoretically how to go to war, and how bad these political organisations were, and about others who had defected from the political organisations.  And they would tell you that - how bad the political beliefs were.

MR MSHE: /(Inaudible)