Amnesty Hearings — Middelburg — 2000-05-11

CHAIRPERSON: For the record, it is Thursday the 11th of May 2000.  It is the continuation of the sitting of the Amnesty Committee at Middelburg.  The Panel is constituted as would appear from the record of the proceedings thus far.  We will hear the following applications this morning:  that of July Mabhoko Mtsweni, amnesty reference AM474/96, Speelman Ernest Mtsweni, amnesty reference AM4300/96, Johannes Jabulani Mahlangu, amnesty reference AM7461/97, Phillip Mfulatwelwa Mtsweni, amnesty reference, AM313/96 and Charles Michael Skosana, amnesty reference, AM650/96.
	I am going to first get the legal representatives to put themselves on record, on behalf of the applicants.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Mr Chairperson, my name is Tony Richard, I represent all five applicants listed a moment ago.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard.  On behalf of the interested parties, the victims?

MR MOKOENA: Thank you Chairperson, Frank Mokoena on behalf of the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mokoena.  And then the leader of evidence?

MS MTANGA: I am Luluma Mtanga, the Evidence Leader, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga.  Yes, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: I am ready to proceed and I call July Mabhoko Mtsweni who is prepared to take the oath.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard.  Mr Mtsweni, please stand to take the oath.  You are July Mabhoko Mtsweni?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: That is correct.

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.  Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Mtsweni, the incident to which your application for amnesty happened during January 1991.  At that stage were you a member or a supporter of any political party?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes I was a member or a supporter of a political organisation.

MR RICHARD: Which one was it?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: I was the supporter of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: When you use the word "supporter", how did you show your support for the ANC?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Everything we did, was for our organisation and we had leaders in the organisation.    We were given instructions to do certain things.

INTERPRETER: Pardon Mr Chairperson, there seems to be a problem with the receiver.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, in fact I gathered that there must be something going on, because the two of you are speaking together, at the same time.  Could somebody just attend to that, just attend to the Interpreters, just see what the problem is.  Will you indicate when it is sorted out?

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, it seems that he will deliver his evidence in Zulu, not Sotho.   Yes, it is Zulu, channel 4 and Sotho, channel 3.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Would you be able to handle that, Interpreters?

INTERPRETER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, very well.  Sorry Mr Richard, we seem to have settled this question.  Would you proceed?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair.  My last question was you say you were a supporter of the African National Congress, my question was how did you show your support for this organisation and what did you do in support of it?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: We had leaders in the ANC organisation and we were followers.  We used to receive instructions from these leaders of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Who were your leaders in your situation?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: The first one was Skosh and Skosh is his nickname, his real name is Jan Nkabinde.

MR RICHARD: Were there any others?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: The other one was Scwadi Sibego.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Did you participate in any protests, marches, boycotts, similar activities?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: I used to attend meetings whenever I was at home, because I used to stay at work where I was working, so I wasn't all the time at home.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.  Now, in your application for amnesty at page 2 of the bundle, you claim amnesty for the killing of Emma Mtsweni.  What relationship was there if any, between you and Emma Mtsweni?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: She was one of my family relatives.  She was an old lady.

MR RICHARD: In what way was she related to your father or your mother?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: She was my distant grandmother.  She wasn't my blood grandmother.    It is because of the surnames, I am not sure as how related we are, but I do know that we are related.

MR RICHARD: Now at page 2 of the bundle, paragraph 4 there is a question which asks you to provide the nature and particulars and the first sentence, to read it out the translation that you wrote was
"... this was a family discussion and it was upon my grandma".
	Would you please tell us what the discussion was about and what you meant by that?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

MR RICHARD: At page 2 of the bundle, which is the second page of your application for amnesty, where you filled in the form to provide nature and particulars of the act for which you are applying for amnesty, you started by saying and I quote
"... this was a family discussion and it was upon my grandmother."
	Now, my question is, what was the discussion about concerning your grandmother?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: I will explain it this way.  My father and my mother passed away.  After they deceased, my grandmother came at home and she said to us we allegedly accused her of killing our parents and we asked her who told her that and she said to us we knew who we told.    We told her that we know nothing of that.  She left.  After a day we received a letter that came from a chief.

MR RICHARD: Just stop there.  Let me just get clarity, am I correct in understanding your answer to be that Emma Mtsweni came to your home and confronted you with the statement that you had made allegations that she had caused the death of your parents?  She confronted you with that allegation, is that what I understand, correctly?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes, that is correct.  It was Emma.

MR RICHARD: And then your reply was you knew nothing about what she was talking about and you asked her from whom had she heard that report or that allegation, am I right?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: And then you were telling us the next day you received a letter from a chief.  What was that chief's name?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: We received a letter from Mabhogo, the name of the chief is Mabhogo.

MR RICHARD: Thank you and what did that letter ask or tell you to do?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: They told us to come before the chief.

MR RICHARD: Did it give you a date and a time and a place that you had to come before the chief?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: Yes, there was a date on that letter, even though I cannot remember, but there was a date and it was on that letter, and we did go on that particular date to the chief.

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me, for which area is this chief Mabhogo you are referring to, where is his kraal?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: kwaNdebele.  There was another chief who reported to the other chief, in other words the one was junior and we went to the senior one in Mabhogo in Kameelrivier.

MR RICHARD: For the sake of clarity I will ask the following, all that we described that happened in your application, happened near and at a place called Pieterskraal, where is Pieterskraal?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: It is an area where I was residing.

MR RICHARD: What is the nearest major centre to Pieterskraal?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: The nearby city or town I think it is Pretoria or Groblersdal.

MR RICHARD: How far from Groblersdal is Pieterskraal?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: I am not sure of the two distances, but I think Groblersdal is nearer than Pretoria.

MR RICHARD: Is Pieterskraal a rural area?

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: No, it is not a town, it is a rural area.

MR RICHARD: And is it an area where you still have Traditional Leaders, chiefs and sub-chiefs?