Amnesty Hearings — Durban — UNKNOWN

MR MSHE: I have heard your evidence, but the impression I get here is that even though he does not mention the place, and given the fact that he spent only two days in Pretoria, and in your company, the impression I get from these pages is that most probably these things - the fact that his head was covered with a canvas bag, etcetera, etcetera, and all these things, and he was kept in handcuffs and shackles, most probably this must have been in Pretoria.

WITNESS:   Yes, it's true, Mr Chairman.

MR MSHE: Do you recall those happenings?

WITNESS:   Not that his pants has been ripped open and - the only thing that happened, there was - there was in a way as - all I can

MR MSHE: /say, a

MR MSHE: say, a few clouts he did receive, ja, well hard clouts by the open hand, because he looked pathetic, he was really badly assaulted already.  And as far as his - I can remember whilst he was lying on a stretcher with a drip in his arm, and it is not to humiliate or what, but he had an erection and was fiddling with it, and that I say because that might give the indication of what kind of drip that was administered, but not at all his trousers were ripped - ripped open.  Not in my presence for sure, and I was present the whole time I can assure you.

MR MSHE: Was a du Plessis present during the interrogation?

WITNESS:   I was.  I was present.

MR MSHE: No, a certain du Plessis.

WITNESS:   Du Plessis?

MR MSHE: You mentioned ... (incomplete)

WITNESS:   Yes, I first mentioned, then I said I think it's Tobie van Rensburg.  No, Major Kallie Steyn, Tobie van Rensburg, Andy Taylor and Jerry Fourie, myself and David Tshikalanga.

MR MSHE: Well, do you recall an occasion where a shot was fired at close range?

WITNESS:   No, not at all.  Not in Pretoria whilst being interrogated.

MR MSHE: Do you recall an occasion when he asked for water, and his request was turned down?

WITNESS:   That was possible.  I can't clearly remember it, but that is quite possible.

WILSON J: Were there cannons, old cannons, at the observatory?

WITNESS:   Yes, there was.

WILSON J: And was the hall there about 60 feet by 30 feet, a large hall?

WITNESS:   It's a large underground hall, that's 100% correct.

WILSON J: But it makes it clear that that was the second place ... (intervention)

WILSON J: /INTERPRETER

INTERPRETER: Sorry, the speaker's mikes are not on.  The speaker's mikes are not on.

WILSON J: (Inaudible) ... the second place he was assaulted in.  He refers to having - the vehicle arriving at its destination, and he was taken out and assaulted where the shot was fired.

WITNESS:   That must have been Vlakplaas, and for sure there was nothing we could interrogate him about at Vlakplaas because we an absolute no knowledge of his - what he knew about the ANC operations in Natal.  But his first destination was Vlakplaas.  There I was present personally.

UNKNOWN: Mr Coetzee, was he ever taken to Sergeant Koos Schutte' house?

WITNESS:   He was.  I can remember that whilst sitting on the back lawn at the back of the house it was on the news, the Pillay abduction that night.  He heard it and he referred to it specifically.

UNKNOWN: And for how long was he detained at Schutte's house?

WITNESS:   It could have been a day or two, awaiting the outcome of the negotiations between General Johan Coetzee and the senior officials of Foreign Affairs at Nersen Border Post.  I can't exactly say how many days.

UNKNOWN: Were you present when he was detained there?

WITNESS:  I left.  I was there for long periods of time, and I left to my house.  I think he slept there a night or two.  I might be wrong, but Sergeant Schutte will be able to help.

UNKNOWN: So you wouldn't be able to know whether he was further assaulted whilst kept in custody at Schutte's house.

WITNESS:   I can't say first-hand, but I can fairly 100% assure you that he would not have been assaulted.  Sergeant Schutte was the farm foreman, actually a very soft-hearted, kind guy.  He just looked after the farm and

UNKNOWN: /the vehicles

UNKNOWN: the vehicles on the farm.  And David Tshikalanga was with him all that time, so I am sure David will be able to say whether that have happened.

CHAIRPERSON: The order to have Pillay released was issued by who?

WITNESS:   It came from Brigadier Skoon, but I accept that it was ordered then from General Johan Coetzee after the meeting that they had at Nersten Border Post with the Swazi officials.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I notice that he gives details of the assault which you didn't mention.  He says,

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: "I verily believe that one of the captains was named Dirk Coetzee."

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ---   He's correct, and there were three of us captains there, and ... (intervention)

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: But the instance of my question is that he gives details of the assault which you didn't give us, and says that those assaults took place in your presence.

WITNESS:   It did.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well then you should have told us about those assaults.

WITNESS:   I did.  I said it was a few clouts that were given him.  He was so badly beaten up when he arrived they really did not fisted - assaulted him with a fist ... (intervention)

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: No, he's saying more than that, a lot more than that.  He says his head was covered with a bag, he was given water to drink.  The water tasted unnatural, and he was later told that it did contain a drug.  And that he was taken into a building in which were written the words, "Know your enemies," and so on and so forth.  And then he was told - he was taunted.  He was reminded about what they called a "flying Indian," and then they mentioned

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: /Timol, whom

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Timol, whom we all know that he was allegedly - he allegedly jumped from the 10th floor of John Vorster Square building, and then he was told that that would - the same thing would happen to him.  And then he goes on to say that there were two captains, and one of them was Captain Dirk Coetzee.

WITNESS:   That's correct, and it's quite possible that that could have been the line of conversation that they spoke to him.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is it possible that he could have been taunted in that way?

WITNESS:   I beg your pardon?

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Is it possible that he could have been taunted in that manner, in that fashion?

WITNESS:   Yes, yes, it's possible.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Well, I would have thought you would remember that, Mr Coetzee, surely.

WITNESS:   No, it's a long time ago, Mr Chairman, and as I say, exact things - I tried to remember as much as possible, but I mean he wasn't given VIP treatment.  That I can assure you.  And he would have been taunted.  That's the normal way that they go about it.  He was assaulted, but his pants were for sure not ripped open.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: And his head was covered with a canvas bag ... (intervention)

WITNESS:   He was - as I said ... (incomplete)

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ... for a long time.

WITNESS:   Quite possible, because he was blindfolded, and it's an old method that they cover a guy's - I don't know whether they tried to sort of just blindfold him with it, or - what does he specific say about it?   I am not at the page that you read off.   Mr Chairman, can you just say?

CHAIRPERSON: This was to increase his general discomfort and feel terribly distressed, so that he can't breathe

CHAIRPERSON: /properly.

CHAIRPERSON: properly.  In other words everything that could be done to humiliate him, to make him totally uncomfortable, was done.

WITNESS:   Absolutely true, Mr Chairman, but as I say, blindfolded for most of the time for sure, in such a way that I think that he couldn't breathe properly at times.  That is sure.

MR DE JAGER: Was Stephen Mbanda present at the interrogation?

WITNESS:   Not at all.

MR DE JAGER: Because he mentioned the name of Stephen Mbanda.