Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: When I say they were injured, I mean that they died.  Because first we shot at them, and then later we set those shacks alight.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know if they ran away, or do you?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: No, they didn't.  They didn't run away, because I was standing right before the door, and I saw people lying down because when I, as I was shooting towards the house the door opened, and then I saw them lying down.  And then afterwards that's when I set the shacks alight.

CHAIRPERSON: What firearm were you using?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: ...(translation inaudible) three.

MS NHLAYISI: Are you in a position to say how many people were killed in that incident, or injured in that particular incident?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: No, I wouldn't be sure.  I didn't get the time to check this, because immediately after I've set that house alight I ran away.  Therefore I don't know how many were there.

MS NHLAYISI: You also do not know their identities?  You cannot tell us who were injured or killed in that particular incident?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: That's correct.

MS NHLAYISI: Were you alone, or were you with others during this incident?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: I was with others.

MS NHLAYISI: How many of you were there?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: If I remember very well it was myself and Michael, Zikes, Melusi.  I think it was six of us.

MS NHLAYISI: You also mentioned one King, a person known by the name of King, who was present.

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: Yes, he was.

MS NHLAYISI: Was this the same group that had been fighting the IFP members earlier on?  The six of you.

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: That's correct.

MS NHLAYISI: So, you were fighting, as they ran to the shacks you followed them immediately, you didn't wait 'til later?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: We fought and soldiers came, and then we waited.  When it was dark and the soldiers were no longer there, we went there.  We say them going to those shacks before we went, exactly where they went.

MS NHLAYISI: You also mentioned that on another occasion you attacked a house, also in Mgadi section.  That particular house was occupied by IFP members.  Can you tell us about this particular incident?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: Yes.  This house is at Mgadi, next to the tar road which separate Radebe section and Mgadi.  We were fighting during the day with them.  Soldiers came and it got quiet.  Later we went back.  We checked and we realised that the people we were looking for were also looking towards where we were.  And then two people went back to the house.  I had a 9mm with me, and a hand grenade, RD5.  I ran, I jumped the fence, and as I got closer to the house I heard them talking.  I broke the window.  I threw the RD5 hand grenade, and then I ran away.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you know whether any people were injured in this incident, or did you see any people running away from this particular house when you attacked?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: I didn't see, because immediately after I've done so I ran away.  I went to Radebe section.

MS NHLAYISI: Who was with you when you carried out this particular order?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: I was with Mbongani.

MS NHLAYISI: Only the two of you?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: Yes.

MS NHLAYISI: Do you know what happened in this particular house after you had left?  Do you have any information as to whether any people were killed or injured?  Or do you only know about the damage to the property?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: I don't know about people being injured or killed, I only know about the property being damaged.

MS NHLAYISI: In which year did this particular incident take place?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: In 1993.

MS NHLAYISI: Can you remember the month?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: No, I can't.  I can't remember the month.  All I remember is that it was in 1993.

MS NHLAYISI: Then you mentioned another incident that you say took place in 1994, wherein a hostel was attacked, that is Byafuti Hostel.  What was the reason?

INTERPRETER: Excuse me, I didn't get the name of the hostel.

MS NHLAYISI: Byafuti.

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: One guy by the name of Sam came to me.  He told me that there was a meeting, and he told me as to where the meeting was going to take place.  Sam came to me and told me  that there was a meeting which we were supposed to do.  He told me where we were going to meet, the point where we were going to meet, and I went there.  When I arrived there he told me that we were supposed to go and bomb the hostel Byafuti.  He gave me rockets.  We went there.  We came from the direction of Tokoza, unit F.  We entered there.  We hid the first rocket and it didn't hit the target, and then the second one went in and I heard the explosion.  And then we left.  We went back.

MS NHLAYISI: How many people were involved in this attack?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: Sam, myself and other two gentlemen.  I don't know their names.

MS NHLAYISI: Did you carry any weapon on this particular day?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: No, except for the RPG7.

MS NHLAYISI: What was the reason for attacking this particular hostel, Byafuti Hostel?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: The reason was the community of Katlehong had already taken a decision that they didn't want hostels any more.  They wanted the hostels to be demolished or to be removed in the townships.  Therefore we wanted to scare them to make sure that they leave the hostels, because the people who were the hostel dwellers were still there.

MS NHLAYISI: Why did you target hostels in particular?  Why did the community want the hostels to be demolished?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: We were tired because the hostel dwellers were attacking he community.  We were tired of the hostel dwellers and their activities.  That's why the community decided not to have hostels any more in the townships.

MS NHLAYISI: There's another occasion wherein you were involved where a hostel in Tokoza was attacked.  That was in Mshayazafe ...(intervention)

MR SIBANYONI: I'm sorry, what did you say about Bays, I heard you mentioning the name Bays?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: Hostels were IFP, that's where IFP people were staying, or armed wing of IFP were staying in hostels.

MS NHLAYISI: There's another incident where a hostel in Tokoza, that's Mshayazafe hostel, was attacked.  You also participated in this incident.  Can you remember when did this incident take place?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: Yes I do remember, even 'though I don't remember the month, but it was in 1994 just before the elections.

CHAIRPERSON: Where you people shot this rocket into Byafuti Hostel, were there any people who died as a result?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: Yes, there were.  There were people who died, many of them.

ADV GCABASHE: But do you know this as a fact, or are you just assuming that many people died when you shot that rocket into Byafuti hostel?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: I think I didn't get the question accurate.  I thought the Judge was asking me if the people who were staying in hostels were killing people from the township.  I don't know how many people died in hostel.  All I know is that the rocket was thrown and it went inside and exploded, then we left.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: ...(no English interpretation)

MS NHLAYISI: The incident involving Mshayazafe hostel in Tokoza.  When did it happen?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: In 1994.  I don't remember the month, but it was before the elections.

MS NHLAYISI: The reason for attacking this particular hostel, is it the same as the one you have given with Byafuti?  That you regarded the hostels as bases where IFP members or soldiers were basing.  Is that correct?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: Yes, that's correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Can I just check, the Mshayazafe hostel incident.  A lot of SDU sections were involved in that attack. Is that so?  That's SDU's from different parts of Tokoza, and then Katlehong.

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA: Yes, that's correct.  It was a mass.  We were coming from different areas.