Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

MR VAN ECK: Was there at any stage before you handed over the limpet mine or the bomb and it was placed in a bag, did they attach nails to it, wrapped it around the limpet mine?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No at no stage did this happen.

MR VAN ECK: Would they have attached nails to it, or if they did what would have been the difference in the effect of this bomb?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Well the weight would change and it would also have more shrapnel and it would have caused more damage and it could have resulted in the loss of life or lives.

MR VAN ECK: Did you see if they tampered with this bomb at any stage to - modified in any way before it was placed in the hall?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: We prepared it up to the final stage when I handed it over to Mr Hardien.  No layman would continue tampering with the bomb or would be willing to attach nails with tape to it so I brought it in its final stages of preparation and handed it over and I never saw it again afterwards.

MR VAN ECK: Did you have any knowledge of the pre-planning that took place about who will detonate the bomb?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes I did.

MR VAN ECK: What did you know about it, who would activate the bomb?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: According to the knowledge that I had Mr Hardien will detonate it.  On the way there, on the way to Cape Town Mr van Zyl and I spoke about it and he expressed his concern about the detonation of the bomb and he decided, because it was his project, that to keep the detonating device with him at all times and that we will observe the scene ourselves to see if the explosion took place and if the limpet mine was placed in the hall.

MR VAN ECK: Did you have any reason to question the decision of Mr van Zyl in that regard?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR VAN ECK: Very well.  You are now in the area of the hall.  Hardien was sent in.  Were reports made to Van Zyl if there were still people in there?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Well Mr Hardien came out and he said that the meeting was still continuing and we had to wait a while.

MR VAN ECK: So you waited?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR VAN ECK: And we know that the bomb exploded at a later stage, did you specifically take note of the time or what time the bomb had to detonate?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: What was told to me was that the bomb had to be detonated when there was nobody left in the hall.  That's all that was put to me.

MR VAN ECK: It was very clear that there was a front entrance and a back exit, where in relation to the hall were you parked?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir I cannot recall but I think from where we were parked we could see the parking lot in front of the hall and the hall itself and we also moved on Mr Hardien's instruction concerning the people who left the hall and the vehicles were not there anymore, then Mr van Zyl wanted to detonate the bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr van Eck, Mr Botha I can't recall but were you at the inspection in loco, did you come along to the hall?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No Sir.

MR LAX: Have you been there since, during the course of this hearing at all just to have a look?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I have never been back there Sir, no.

MR VAN ECK: Have you been there before?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No Sir.

MR VAN ECK: Before the evening of the explosion?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No Sir.

MR VAN ECK: And you also say afterwards you did not go there either?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That's correct.

MR VAN ECK: Did you have any personal discussion with Hardien?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir no, we were in the same vehicle and we could have exchanged a few words.  I acted more as a listener.

MR VAN ECK: Did you have a discussion with him that he should do this or that or was it something that was between him and Van Zyl?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes it was something that was between him and Van Zyl.

MR VAN ECK: Did you report back at any stage that there were still people in the hall when the bomb was detonated?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Mr van Zyl's reaction was that we had to wait.

MR VAN ECK: Did you wait?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.

MR VAN ECK: You then decided to detonate it at a later stage?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes.  I sat with Mr van Zyl in the front of the vehicle, they sat in front and they observed the hall and as the people left the hall they could attach certain names to certain people.  I think Mr Williams, the other Mr Peter Oliver.  I cannot recall any of the other names and Mr Hardien said that well according to him the hall would be empty and then Mr van Zyl decided to detonate the bomb.

MR VAN ECK: Who detonated the bomb?  What happened?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: In short Mr van Zyl attempted to detonate it, he could not detonate the bomb.  I took the charge, the sender in my hand and I tried to find out if there was not a problem, maybe with the batteries or something and I covered it up again and I said well I'll try and I detonated it.

MR VAN ECK: Can you recall at that stage how far you were from the hall?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I think we were a few hundred metres from the hall.  This is now during the observation but we drove towards the back or maybe I should say around the block.  I would say we were there approximately 30 or 40 metres from the hall itself.

MR VAN ECK: When the bomb was detonated Mr Botha did you personally see if there were people in the hall?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Well as far as I know there were not.  What I could see there were no people in the hall.

MR VAN ECK: It's very clear that you heard and saw when the bomb went off, what did you do afterwards?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: We drove directly to the airport.  We went on the highway and we flew back to Johannesburg.

MR VAN ECK: Who met you in Johannesburg, can you recall?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes it was Mr Maree and Mr Burger.

MR VAN ECK: You now mention Mr Maree's name, was he involved in the arrangement or the planning of this bomb?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No not as far as I know.

MR VAN ECK: Do you know why he was at the airport that evening?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No Sir I am not sure.

MR VAN ECK: Did you take part in any feedback to Mr Burger with regards to the bomb?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Well just that the bomb detonated and my role in it.

MR VAN ECK: Did you receive any remuneration or bonus for the detonation of the bomb?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: It is so long ago I cannot recall.  I know that at a certain stage they did pay out bonuses.  If it was done I will accept it and if they did it would be around R3,000, but I cannot recall.

MR VAN ECK: Did they give you any feedback with regards to injuries?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Sir, we heard that there were some light injuries and what the nature of it I do not know.

MR VAN ECK: If you talk about injuries can we just go back to your application form where it describes the nature of your act or application.  On page 3 there's a question on the application form that is filled in
"State whether any person was injured, killed or suffered any damage to property as a result of such acts, missions or offences".
and your answer here is "No."  You are saying now that you heard that people were injured, why is it that we find this answer in your application form which is contrasting now with your evidence?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I see on the following page - "suffered any damage to property", by nature of the situation I knew that the property was damaged so why would I deny it.  I do not know, I cannot give you an explanation.  Our application was submitted by Botha & Kruger and I have got no explanation for it.

MR VAN ECK: When you submitted this or compiled this application were you led by legal representatives?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN ECK: Did you question the contents thereof?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No.

MR VAN ECK: You do realise that it's wrong?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Yes I do.