Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-05-15

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: In 1986 it happened that we arrested people at random. There was a state of emergency at that time.  Among those people we arrested Pappi, I knew him as JJ.  We took him to Fountain Police Station.  We took him to one of the rooms.  It was myself, Adjutant Killian, Sgt Mamone and Const Motala.  Warrant Officer questioned JJ or Pappi, why didn't he contact him again to bring information.  Pappi responded by saying he doesn't want to be an informer any more, because that put his life at risk.
	After that Warrant Officer Killian, he said Pappi should refund his money which he used to pay him as an informer.  When Pappi denied, he said we should assault him.  We assaulted him with picks and kicked him, and hit him against the wall.  Whilst we were continuing with that assault, we took a tube, we suffocated him with that. We used to take it out and put it again and continue assaulting. Every minute we put in the tube, it happened that at that time he fainted.  After he fainted, we tried to resuscitate him.  He didn't regain conscious.  They said we should bring him back with water.  We poured him with water.  When we poured him with that water, we thought he would regain conscious.  He was not able to regain conscious.  We asked Warrant Officer Killian what to do.  He said we should take him out and put him in a car.  
	We took him with to Batto location.  When we arrived at Batto township, we took him between Batto location and Botshabelo location.  There is an open veld.  He said Warrant Officer Mamone and Warrant Officer Motala, should take him to the veld.  They took him to that veld.  They just dropped him there. I heard a gun shot.  Then they returned.    They informed Warrant Officer Killian that that person in the cupboard, so they finished him off.  Then we went.
	In the morning when we reported at work, the policeman from Batt location phoned us.  They phoned Warrant Officer Tzwamitze.  He said myself and Motalo should accompany them to the location.  When we arrived there, a certain sergeant or warrant-officer, I don't remember his rank, is Tobihi - his name is Modisa, I don't know if Modise is the surname or a name, whether his surname Tobihi or Modise, I don't remember well.   He said there is a person who was wearing a UDF T-shirt who was found in the veld, we should try to explain to him who is that person. Warrant Officer Tzwamitze said he doesn't know that person.  Myself and Mamone were able to recognise that that was the person we assaulted yesterday.  Then we left Batto township.  We returned to our office.  
	The explanation we want to give:  during the period of torture Motsamai was in the office, but he didn't take part in the assault, because he was busy with other detainees in the office.

ADV MEMANI: When you participated in the torture on Mr - on Pappi, did you have any personal grievance with him?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I don't understand, I don't hear the question, sir.

ADV MEMANI: Let the people fix the machines. Now I will repeat the question.  When you participated in the torture of Pappi, did you have any personal grievance against him?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was detained during the state of emergency.  He was going to be interrogated, so I took him as one of the suspects who were supposed to be questioned.  He was not the only one who was interrogated, but we were allocated to him to question him, so I didn't have any personal grudge with him.

ADV MEMANI: Did you torture him for personal gain?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was torturing him because Warrant-Officer Killian who was questioning him, instructed us to torture him.  The warrant-officer started with the torture, so we assisted him with the torture.  So I participated in the torture there, it is because all of us we were interrogating him and supporting Warrant-Officer Killian.

ADV MEMANI: Were you under persons who tortured Pappi, policemen at that stage, in the employ of the State?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: They were policemen. Mamone was a policeman, I was a policeman, Warrant-Officer Killian was a policeman, Motale was a policeman.

JUDGE WILSON: Could I interrupt for a moment and ask assistance from somebody. Is it Gillian or Killian?

ADV MEMANI: It is supposed to be Killian.

JUDGE WILSON: Killian, it is?

ADV MEMANI: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

ADV MEMANI: And when you tortured Mr Pappi, were you acting in the course and the scope of your employment as a policeman?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, that is true, it was part of our work during the state of emergency.  That is a method we used during the state of emergency.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Chair, there seems to be an appropriate stage to deal with the papers.  You see, Mr Chair, I have got a difficulty. I was trying to do something so that we don't wait, but the difficulty is that I am not prepared for the papers that are before me now.  I am kind of battling.  Would it help if we simply adjourned and then we sort these papers out and then we proceed?

JUDGE WILSON: Very well, if you feel you can't go on.  It would only be for a few minutes, I take it.

ADV MEMANI: I suppose so, M'Lord.

JUDGE WILSON: Very well, get the other papers.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

JUDGE WILSON: What are we going to proceed with now?

MS THABETHA: Mr Chair, I would like to comment on the paper that we were dealing with, the matter of Ngo.  We have met the counsel and lawyers and we have discovered in the second application, there are more offences that have been raised therein, which implicate more people, which there are more victims as well included in that second statement.  I think we would need some time to make further investigations and also time to inform the victims and the implicated persons who have been implicated in that second statement, and we have agreed that it would be better to postpone the matter and that set it for a week, because ...

JUDGE WILSON: For a what?

MS THABETHA: For a week, for the whole week, on a date that would be decided later on.

JUDGE WILSON: Sorry, I don't understand you.  You say adjourn the matter to a week or for a week?

MS THABETHA: No.

JUDGE WILSON: We will have a hearing for a week, yes.  Does everyone agree with that?  I think it should be made clear that it has emerged that the document referred to by Mr Ngo's counsel, was completed by him and notification of its existence was sent to the Amnesty Committee in Cape Town and from the letter available, it was for the Prisons Department then to forward it, that any delay was not as a result of delay by the applicant.  He had completed this second document which has now been handed in to us, and which we have numbered.  There two annexures to it, A1 to 13 and the second one was already numbered B1 to 22 or 27, I think.  Those are now available and they were made available by the applicant timeously.  So we think it only right that he should be given every opportunity to investigate the matter that is set out there.  But we agree entirely with what has been said by Ms Thabetha, the matter should now in our view, that the new documents should be referred to the investigative unit, for them to make contact or verify the facts, to make contact with the victims and with interested parties, parties named, and it is our view that that should be done immediately.  It should not be waited till a day a hearing has been fixed and go along and tell them it is going to happen in three weeks time.  Contact should be made now so a complete investigation can be made.  The applicant in certain of these applications have even given a telephone number of possible victims.  I feel quite sure that the applicant will co-operate with the investigative unit, if he is able to assist in giving further details of where these people can be found.  That is so, is it not?

ADV MEMANI: I believe so, M'Lord.