Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-09-08

MR WARNER: What about the white people who were in violent opposition to the apartheid regime, would you hit them as well?  Would you hit comrade Slovo for example, as a white person?

ANDILE SHICEKA: If he happened to be among the people that I was attacking, I wouldn't differentiate, I would hit him, it's obvious.

MR WARNER: Okay, thank you.  On the night when you went to see this particular restaurant, to attack the restaurant, you said just now that you first went there earlier in the day and checked the place out and decided that it was a good target.  It would appear that DK was a subordinate to you and you first had to approve the target, is that correct?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I'm a commander and DK is a commissar.  In APLA we didn't operate as individuals, we operated collectively.  I can also select a target and bring it to them and we discuss about this target but the last person to take the final decision is myself, the commander.  That is why when DK came to me and he told me to go to the restaurant I went to that restaurant also and I confirmed and I approved that this is a real target, and late in the evening we went there to hit the restaurant.

MR WARNER: It is my information and I put it to you that there were, as alleged in the affidavit, at least 50% of the staff members were actually black and not white.  It so happens that at the time of the attack the black staff had for some or other reason left earlier than they usually do.  Was this part of the plan, was this actually organised, that the black staff would not be there?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I don't know.  I can't respond to that because I do not know that, because we don't plan with people who work in the restaurants.

MR WARNER: Okay.  So then what you're saying is that is was unlikely that they would have been warned of attack and left early for that reason?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Who could have given them a warning?

MR WARNER: Okay, I accept that there was no warning.  Now what I put to you is that you went there earlier in the day during the daytime and you said that you went inside and bought tobacco, by the way, what tobacco was it that you bought?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I can't remember, the reason being this, I don't smoke.  I went inside, I bought something.  Even if I wasn't going to use that but I bought it because I wanted to check thoroughly.  Even if I had thrown that cigarette away but I went there to check inside.  For me to check inside I had to do something, I had to pretend as if I was buying something.

MR WARNER: So you went inside the restaurant, being the same one which you later that evening attacked, is that correct?

ANDILE SHICEKA: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: What was his answer?

MR WARNER: Then I want to ask you, when you went inside you looked around, what did you see, who was in the restaurant at the time you looked around to see what sort of people frequented that restaurant?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I saw white people.

MR WARNER: Are you telling the Commission that you did not see any black people in the restaurant?

ANDILE SHICEKA: I saw white people.  If he or she was there I didn't see him or her but I saw white people.

MR WARNER: Did it occur to you that there may have been black people either working or eating in the restaurant?

ANDILE SHICEKA: No, I didn't think about that.

MR WARNER: Alright, let me take you to the evening of the attack, did you first drive past the restaurant or how did you get to the place where you parked your car?

ANDILE SHICEKA: Have you been to that restaurant, because I want to explain to you so that you can get a proper picture.  It's next to the robots.  As DK was driving we stopped next to it and I alighted from the vehicle and I went inside, I bought tobacco.  There's a first street, I'm not sure whether it is a pre-school but there is something there next to the restaurant.
	When I went inside the car took a turn so that when I went back, I came out of the restaurant, I would find the car on the road.

MR WARNER: Can I show you a map of the two roads and you can perhaps draw with a pen on there where the car parked and where the restaurant is.  If I can show that to you.  Could you just make the marks on both please.  Could you put an "A" for where the car was parked and a "B" for where the restaurant is please.
MAP HANDED TO APPLICANT FOR INDICATIONS

ANDILE SHICEKA: ...[no English translation]  I can see the Landsdowne Road.  Will you please come closer to me because I want to be sure, I want to tick at the right place.  Will you please come closer to me because I can't see where the robot is here.

MR WARNER: Are you able to make those marks on the map?

CHAIRPERSON: Is this crucial to the application or is it just a matter of side interest?

MR WARNER: I believe that it may be.  I wish to point out the, whether the vehicle passed the restaurant first or whether it went through the back street, because from where the vehicle was, I believe, parked ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  The event occurred, they were there, they got back.  Now is this crucial to know how they went there and how they got back?

MR WARNER: What I'm trying to show is that this reconnaissance trip to the restaurant didn't happen as it is being said it happened.

MR WARNER: Okay, but they went there nevertheless?

MR WARNER: I don't think they went to that restaurant.

CHAIRPERSON: Well that's another matter.

MR WARNER: The restaurant doesn't sell cigarettes, the shop next door sells cigarettes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now put it along those lines, if you are saying that they never went to this restaurant at all.  Please carry on.

MR WARNER: I put it to you then that your colleague, your comrade, did not go to the Stake's Restaurant to check the restaurant out because apparently, according to the police report, somebody came and bought cigarettes at the shop next door.  Now can you tell us, this restaurant, was it right on the corner or was the shop(?) next to the shop on the corner?

ANDILE SHICEKA: There is a shop at the corner with a machine.  The restaurant was next to the shop.  There is a shop at - the fist building is a shop and there is a restaurant, and there's only a passage where one can park a car.  There is nothing after the restaurant.

MR WARNER: Okay, thank you.  No further questions on that point.  Your counsel said that it was not possible for, or you said that it was not possible for APLA not to have known about this operation beforehand because they approved it afterwards.
	Now I put it to you that that doesn't follow.  APLA approved the operation after you reported it to Power.  I put it to you that APLA was not aware prior to this operation, that you were going to attack the restaurant or this particular restaurant.

ANDILE SHICEKA: Do you expect an answer?

MR WARNER: Can you comment on that please?  I'm putting it to you that APLA did not know before the attack took place, that you were going to attack a restaurant filled with civilians, is that true?