Human Rights Violation Hearings — Kimberley — 1996-06-11

THABO MOOROSI: It's in Mafikeng.

ADV NTSEBEZA: And were you then subsequently moved to Rooigrond?

THABO MOOROSI: Subsequently it was back to Rooigrond.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Were you ever tortured in any sort of way in Rooigrond?

THABO MOOROSI: No, I was - I was handcuffed  because I was unconscious - I only woke up in Rooigrond.

ADV NTSEBEZA: And when this interrogation was taking place were you handcuffed?

THABO MOOROSI: For the first day I was handcuffed , then for the second day  they 
un-handcuffed me.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Whilst you were - during the period that you were at Rooigrond were you severely mistreated as  there as well  or the mistreatment stopped only at Mafikeng?

THABO MOOROSI: They stopped - they stopped interrogating me - I'm sorry torturing me in Rooigrond Prison.

ADV NTSEBEZA: In Mafikeng?

THABO MOOROSI: In Mafikeng, that is - is - I don't know - 5 kilometres from Mafikeng.  It is next to Lichtenburg.

ADV NTSEBEZA: So you were never tortured at Rooigrond?

THABO MOOROSI: No.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Now, what would you like the Commission to do for you.

THABO MOOROSI: Because I'm unable to work because of my health condition I would like to be compensated really.   Because I was suppose to join the Army, the Army does not want me because of my health conditions.  They say that my mental condition I can't cope within Military.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Incidentally who in the Army is deciding that, are they MK people or SADF people?

THABO MOOROSI: No, it's  SANDF and MK because there is a joint command but those who are in control is still   SANDF  in the Army.  So it's  SANDF doctors.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Do they know this history?

THABO MOOROSI: Yes, they know it.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Do they know that it is a consequence of what happened in [intervention]

THABO MOOROSI: No, they don't know that - the consequences of [intervention]

ADV NTSEBEZA: No, no, do they know in the Army that you are getting this psychiatry treatment as a result [intervention]

THABO MOOROSI: Yes, they know - yes they know.  I was receiving it even in the Army.  I told them that I was suffering because if I don't get the treatment I become confused.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Anything else that you'd  like the Commission to do for you?

THABO MOOROSI: There's nothing else because it's now in a new period of reconciliation and as it states that it is a Commission of Truth and Reconciliation.  We say let bygones be bygones, but I should like that those who tortured me should not actually be brought to hook but they should be - I don't know what word to use so that they should be made aware of their deeds and acts that they are committed against me.  And the atrocities that they've committed against me.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Are you aware that Tsutsubi is reported to be the head of the National Intelligent Agency in Nkube, Mafikeng?

THABO MOOROSI: I'm not aware.

ADV NTSEBEZA: If that was true what would be your view in view of what he did to you now that he holds a public office still in the [intervention]

THABO MOOROSI: He might be the head of - of the Intelligence of Security but because the political machinery is in control of the police.  I would like that if he rises within his rank,  let it not be high  because he might misuse it, maybe in future.

ADV NTSEBEZA: How higher can he get, he's a head of the [intervention]

THABO MOOROSI: I understand Makinta is also a head of security there.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Thank you,  [indistinct]

YASMINE SOOKA: Thabo  I want to ask two questions.  You - you started off telling us about your role before - before you were captures.  Can you give us an idea of what kind of person you was - can you - you were.  Can you describe your personality - how you were before you were captured and tortured.  Give us an idea of kind of person you were then.

THABO MOOROSI: Well, I was trained as a leader at the ANC camps.  I went through political education in Bulgaria where I become a head of the political section of the ANC and when I entered the country I had the responsibility of being a commander of the unit that enter the country.
 But that - all those qualities that I had are presently no more there because of the health condition in which I am presently which was caused because of the torture that I went through.

YASMINE SOOKA: My second question to you is, if you were to be integrated into the Army - the present South African National Defence Force, do you have an idea of what status you would have within the Defence Force - what - what - do you have idea of what rank you could have been awarded if you were to integrate?

THABO MOOROSI: I could have - I was awarded actually the rank of a Major.

YASMINE SOOKA: Can you just say that again please?

THABO MOOROSI: I was awarded the rank of a Major by the ANC.

YASMINE SOOKA: So you were ranked - you were rank as a Major by the ANC?

THABO MOOROSI: Yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: So you would have been an officer if you had to be integrated into the Army.

THABO MOOROSI: Yes, an officer, yes.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you very much Thabo.  Could we have order please, Thabo we'd like to thank you for sharing your story with us.  Commissioner Ntsebeza has since indicated that he has one more question for you.

THABO MOOROSI: Okay.

ADV NTSEBEZA: Now have you opposed the Minister of Defence in connection with demobilisation package?

THABO MOOROSI: They have given me the demobilisation package - that was R58,000-00  and then I bought a house with that money because I had no house.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you Thabo, could we have order please.  I think that again when we listen to your story we are conscious of the enormous damage that has taken place not just to your body but to your mind as well.  The torture didn't just effect your - you physically but it also affected your possibility of making a better living for yourself.
 Now that we have a new South Africa you're not even able to enjoy the fruits of that training because you are not able to be integrated into the army.  All the money in the world can't compensate you for good health.  And we are very-very sorry to learn of it, we have done some basic investigation work and we have been able to establish that the person you have named as your torturer is in fact the head of Intelligence in Mafikeng.  We will be using the powers which were given to us to ask him to come and give his side of the story so that we can also hear from him what he thought of at the time when he did all of these things to you.  We will try to find out as much as we can about the role he played in the damage that was done to you.  We thank you for coming forward and we are conscious of the sacrifice that you have made as well.
The proceedings of the Truth Commission are over for this session.   We thank you for having been such good - such a good audience.  We are conscious of the fact that the work of the Truth Commission needs to spread and that you people on the outside need to know of the suffering of our people.  It is only by filling these halls and by getting these stories told that South Africa will be aware of the enormous sacrifice of it's people.   We thank you Thabo, we would like everybody to stand while the witnesses file out please.