Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — UNKNOWN

DR RANDERA: Mr Richardson, in asking my question I want to make two assumptions and these are based on having listened to you today.  The first one is that you are someone who loves soccer and loves coaching and therefore I think you like young people, the second one is that - from what you said earlier and right at the beginning, you have a child or children whom you seem to care a great deal about.   Now what I'm trying to understand is, how can someone within a two to two and a half year period go from being a soccer coach and someone who likes young people, to become - I can't describe it in any other way, to become a killing machine and in addition to that, you so vividly described how Stompie was being tortured.   Now at the time when you were torturing him, when you were throwing him into the air and letting him drop onto the ground and when you finally killed him, did it never occur to you that this is only 13 or 14 year old child or by then, had you and the other people lost any reality in terms of what is right or wrong?

JERRY RICHARDSON: That is true, I think things got out of hand because Paul Erasmus and H Moodley - we didn't know what to do them ...[intervention]

DR RANDERA: Mr Richardson, can you please try on this one occasion to speak for yourself and leave Mr Erasmus and Mr Moodley out of it.

JERRY RICHARDSON: When I was on death row, I sang a hymn because there was nothing good that I did.  If I played soccer successfully, I would have been very happy and I'm not proud of what I did in the past but I feel I'm serving my sentence and to me that is enough.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY DR RANDERA

CHAIRPERSON: Khosa?

KHOZA MGOJO: Mr Richardson, I would like to address you in Zulu.  I asked you questions before as to why you were not killed after having been labelled an informer, were you a champion and you said yes, they were scared of you.  Now the question is, is it possible that what you did you did because you were instructed to?  Why couldn't you say: "No, I could not do this or I cannot do this", why did you stoop that low, kill so many innocent children within such a short space of time?  Why did you do it?
 I'm asking this question because I want to know as to whether all these things were done because you were instructed because even if you were instructed, you had the right to refuse.

JERRY RICHARDSON: I was instructed, it was an order and it was a decision that was made.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MGOJO

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson, at this juncture I don't think I have any further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, wonderful.  Hanif?

MR VALLY: Just one question Archbishop.
 At some point in your evidence Mr Richardson, you indicated that forthcoming evidence would unleash a bombshell, what were you referring to?

JERRY RICHARDSON: The bomb that I'm referring to is this bomb - Moodley and Mrs Madikizela-Mandela and Paul Erasmus, there's something they're planning against me - I think there's a plan that they are hatching.  We have come to the Truth Commission but the truth is not yet out.  When I listened to the news, all the people who had testified wanted to come back and re-testify because some other people get scared, especially Mbatha.  When Mbatha saw me he got the shivers and he just could not testify.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VALLY: Thank you Archbishop, no more questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VALLY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richardson, we would like to wish you a happy birthday as I don't know whether we are able to wish you a happy birthday in jail.

JERRY RICHARDSON: I would like to be given an opportunity to speak to my attorney, I would like to speak to my attorney ...No English translation.

CHAIRPERSON: What is it that you want to do?

JERRY RICHARDSON: I'm saying this to Joyce, Kuki's mother, Charles Zwane, Lerothodi, Master, Dudu Chili, I want us to get together, I want to give them some tickets and I'll see them in the year 2000.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]  We will make such an opportunity that you do meet with them.  What is it that you wanted to say to your attorney?

MR RICHARD: Mr Chairman, I've seen the ...[inaudible] that the witness has prepared, I don't see any harm in him ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He was saying there was a statement that he wanted you to make on his behalf.

MR RICHARD: Let me find out what it is.

CHAIRPERSON: We want to go on.

MR RICHARD: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You have not had specific instructions with regard to that?  Can you whisper with him perhaps for two minutes?

DR BORAINE: Order please, thank you.  Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson, the instructions I have received are to communicate that Mr Richardson has a desire to see the Doctor Abu-Baker matter properly re-investigated and in that connection he has expressed a wish that Mrs Albertina Sisulu re-testify - that was the first instruction.
 The second one is that I have certain cards that he wishes to give to the families of the victims - which I will arrange to do after the hearing.

DR BORAINE: As to your first instruction, that is noted and as to the second, I'm delighted that these cards are being made available, I'd be grateful if you'd make sure that they get to the right people.
 Mr Richardson, thank you again for your evidence, you've had a very long time in the witness box and you must be tired - so are we, you may stand down, thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

DR BORAINE: I call Colonel Hesslinga, Dempsey and Senior Superintendent Moodley.
 Order please, those who are standing in the hall, will you please be seated or leave, thank you very much.
 First may I ask Mr Hesslinga - I'm not sure of your title, is it Colonel or am I wrong?

MR HESSLINGA: ...[inaudible]

DR BORAINE: It's Senior Superintendent Moodley and just remind us again please Mr Dempsey, is it Colonel Dempsey or?

MR DEMPSEY: Senior Superintendent.

DR BORAINE: Also Senior, thank you very much indeed.  Thank you very much for the two of you coming back again, we appreciate that very much and Director Hesslinga I understand you haven't been at all well and that you've had a couple of operations, you haven't been out of bed for very long - we're very grateful to you for coming to this Commission even though you've been in hospital so recently, thank you.
 We have to ask you to take the oath again - for the two of you, and of course obviously Director.  
 Miss Sooka?

YASMINE SOOKA: Could I ask you to stand please and could I ask you one by one to place your full names on the record please.

MR HESSLINGA: Hendrik Marthinus Hesslinga.

MR DEMPSEY: Fredrick Hendrik Dempsey.

MR MOODLEY: Hoothra Moodley.

MR HESSLINGA: (sworn states)

MR DEMPSEY: (sworn states)

MR MOODLEY: (sworn states)

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

DR BORAINE: Thank you, I'm sure I don't have to remind you that you are at liberty to use any of the official languages of our country, you may use English or Afrikaans as it pleases you - there are interpretation services available, so please feel free to speak the language you wish to, thank you.
 Piers?  I beg your pardon, Mr Cilliers, is that right?

MR CILLIERS: Yes, I suggested we follow the same procedure as the previous time in order to save time as it's again getting late, so I would suggest - especially at this stage whilst there's only specific questions it seems to me to be asked, that we proceed in the same procedure as the last time.

DR BORAINE: I appreciate that suggestion, we will follow it and - Piers?

MR PIGOU: Thank you Chair, I'd like to start with Senior Superintendent Dempsey.
 Senior Superintendent Dempsey, you handed some documents to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission Investigation Unit yesterday and I was hoping that you would have those in front of you, do you?