Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-27

MR SHAW: Yes, if I'm correct, if my memory serves me correct, Shedile worked at the recruitment offices of the District Commissioner in Bloemfontein .

ADV MEMANI: And my instructions are that you were present when he gave the form to Ngo.

MR SHAW: I deny that I was not present at all.

ADV MEMANI: And is it your evidence that you do not know that Mr Erasmus made arrangements for Ngo to be kept at least at a white man's house after he was attacked by students?

MR SHAW: I have no knowledge of that fact.

ADV MEMANI: Is it your evidence that you have no knowledge at all that security branch was involved in making safety arrangements for him.

MR SHAW: Yes, that is correct, I have no knowledge of any arrangements made by them.

ADV MEMANI: Are you not aware of the fact that security branch Bloemfontein took steps to have Ngo removed from Bloemfontein to Ladybrand?

MR SHAW: No, I have no knowledge of that fact.

ADV MEMANI: I didn't intend to refer you to a certain letter in this bundle, but let me find the letter quickly.

ADV DE JAGER: Pages 63 and 64 relate to the period before he went to the college, a few months before he went to the college.

ADV MEMANI: Yes, its its actually the letter that I will refer to that deals with this.  He says at paragraph 3
"The leader was well known in the black community"
"the member".
I can't hear you very clearly Sir, sorry. 
"the member is well known in the black community and the fact that he is now a member of the force quickly became known"
paragraph 4:
"This office over the past period received information to the effect that the radical elements in the black community were planning to act against the member in the form of a necklace murder"
paragraph 5:
"This office recommends that the member without delay be removed from Bloemfontein or transferred from Bloemfontein to a district where he is not known, but preferably in the Ladybrand district"
Now this letter is signed by lieutenant colonel C. Smith, do you know this person?

MR SHAW: Yes, I know Colonel Smith.

ADV MEMANI: Where did he work?

MR SHAW: At the security branch as Divisional Commander, Commissioner.   Sorry, he was the Divisional Commander of the security branch.

ADV MEMANI: Isn't it correct that he was in fact the Station Commander at Fountains?

MR SHAW: That is correct, he was the Divisional Commander of the security branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go away from these letters Mr Memani, perhaps you would like to refer to the letter at 63 - the letter at page 63 was written on the 18th of June 1986, the letter at page 64 was written apparently, best I can read my copy, on the 19th of June 1986.
	Paragraph 2 says that he must immediately go to Ladybrand and paragraph 3 apparently indicates that it will not be regarded as a transfer and that it mustn't be reported by SAP172 because it was apparently a secretive transaction.

ADV MEMANI: I'm indebted to the Chair.

ADV DE JAGER: And according to paragraph 1 that should be the position up to the 4th of July 1986 when he should report
" he had to report for services as student for training"

ADV MEMANI: I'm indebted Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: And page 65 can perhaps explain Mr Visser's so-called error in that although he may have been appointed in February it appears in paragraph 65 that he took the oath on the 11th of March.

MR VISSER: Yes, that's what I tried to to explain just now Mr Chairman, this this must be the date which brought me on to the wrong track.

ADV MEMANI: Is it correct Mr Shaw that you knew Mr Motsamai as well?

MR SHAW: That's correct.

ADV MEMANI: And I think you've already said that  there were no difficulties between yourself and Mr Motsamai?

MR SHAW: That's correct.

ADV MEMANI: Is it correct that you also know a person who's known as Nicos?

MR SHAW: I know the name but I don't know the person personally at all, I have heard the name before.

ADV MEMANI: Now, my instructions from Nicos are that you used to visit him at his house, rather at his shop.

MR SHAW: I deny that.

ADV MEMANI: I believe that Mr Molefe, Serame Molefe testified to the same effect.

MR SHAW: I don't know them at all.  I never never at Nicos' house I deny that.

ADV MEMANI: Nor were you at his shop?

MR SHAW: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And you you did not instruct your lawyers that Nicos' bussiness was burnt because of some suspected muti murder, did you?

MR SHAW: No, I have no knowledge of my own involvement in the burning down of Nicos' business or house.

ADV MEMANI: And you do not know anything about a child who died in the vicinity of his shop?

MR SHAW: I don't remember anything like that.

ADV MEMANI: As the Chair pleases, those are my questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Brink

MR BRINK: No, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry if I disturbed you.

MR VISSER: None thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER

MR VISSER: May this witness be excused Mr Chairman, if you've finished with him? - sorry.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Mr Shaw, you mentioned a few people who worked with you in the then so-called black section.  Were all of you directly under Colonel Coetzee?

MR SHAW: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: That would include Motsamai, Mamome, Ramosoeu, Mtyhala as well?

MR SHAW: That's correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: In other words there was nobody between them and Colonel Coetzee?  They they were taking orders directly and they were answerable directly to colonel Coetzee?

MR SHAW: That is correct.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: What section was this?

MR SHAW: We referred to it as the black section.  That was the section which dealt with all the riots and black matters and black affairs and they investigated those.

CHAIRPERSON: There were no Captains or Majors or anything in that section, who were between Colonel Coetzee and the Constables or the Warrant Officers ?

MR SHAW: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I enquire whether you know what the next exhibit number might be?  I know your registrar has drawn a list.  I haven't got a copy of that list I believe it might be P66.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR VISSER: P's, yes Mr Chairman.
I don't want to cause you inconvenience, I can find out later.  What I wish to do now Mr Chairman, is to hand to you the written proof which you requested in regard to Mr Morakile's transfer from the stock theft unit at Wepener to Bloemfontein.  We've made photocopies of the original document which I beg leave to hand in.  Perhaps the exhibit number can stand over until I have checked on the papers -  thank you Robin.

CHAIRPERSON: The last exhibit I have is P65.

MR VISSER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That is Tsomela's affidavit.

MR VISSER: That is my recollection.  I believe it must be P66 Mr Chairman but I will check on that and I will come back to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, shall we put it in for the time being and if we have to change it we will do so.