Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-08

CHAIRPERSON: And the hostel dwellers?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: There was a perception that the residents were ANC members and those who stayed in the hostel, were IFP members?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I would say that, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And in your evidence you have indeed supported, but only partly that perception by saying all members who were staying, who were ANC members, all people who were ANC members who had been staying in the hostels, had moved out of the hostels and only IFP members, or perceived IFP members, remained in the hostels?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That being so, what did you make of the people you had seen running towards the hostel after you had been told by some of the people who had sustained injuries at the scene of the shooting, that the people who had done the shooting, had been carrying firearm and had run towards the direction of the hostel?
	What did you make of those people, what did you think they were members of if you did have any opinion about that at all?  I want your opinion, not anyone else's opinion.
	I want what came to your mind.

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I just saw them as dangerous people, dangerous to the community.  That is why I joined when it was decided that they should be found and killed.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you make of their probable political affiliation?  Did you think this was politically related?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I associated that with politics.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: It was not simple for the residents of the township to commit such an act and run into the hostel.  The people who were capable of doing such acts, were those who lived in the hostel, the people who were against the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have IFP members who owned taxi's in your township?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes, they were there.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Ms Thabete, do you have any questions to put to Mr Selahle?

MS THABETE: Just one aspect Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed to put any questions in respect of that aspect.

MS THABETE: Thank you.  Mr Selahle, in your understanding, can you briefly explain what did you think the role of SDU members was in the community?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I do not understand the question, can you please repeat it?

MS THABETE: What did you understand the role of SDU members to be as an SDU member in the community?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: The role was to defend the African masses against the enemy.

MS THABETE: Who was the enemy in your understanding?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: The members of the IFP who were attacking us.  At some instances, there were gangsters working together with the members of the IFP, harassing the community.
	They are the ones who were directing the attacks to the community, thus I refer to them as enemies of the community.

MS THABETE: So are you saying those were the only group or people you identified as enemies, there were no other groups that you identified as enemies?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I think I mentioned that they were collaborating with the gangsters.  The gangsters were in support of the IFP.  We regarded them as enemies.

MS THABETE: My last question to you is, how then did you as SDU members identify such enemies, was it people who committed criminal acts, was it people who committed political acts, or both?  How did you identify those enemies?

MR LAX: Are you trying to say how did you differentiate between those enemies?

MS THABETE: Yes.  I think what I want to ascertain is they knew that they had an enemy to attack or to protect against the community, how would they identify those people as enemies from what they did?  That is what I am trying to ascertain.

CHAIRPERSON: Hasn't he covered that Ms Thabete, because in his evidence in chief he said the fact that they had attacked a taxi, killed and injured the passengers therein, made them the enemies of the community at least in respect of this incident?

MS THABETE: Madam Chair, I was asking a general question, then I was going to be more specific.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MS THABETE: Mr Selahle, how did you as SDU members identify who the enemy was?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: We identified them by their actions against the community.

MS THABETE: Which were?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Attacking the community, killing the members of the community.  That in itself was a clear indication that they were the enemy.

MS THABETE: So would you say what Mr Mkhabela and the other guy did, is what you identified as part of your role in protecting the community?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is what I would say.

MS THABETE: No further questions Madam Chair, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Ms Thabete.    Ms Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.  Mr Selahle, was Paul against them?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: He was not, he was a member of the PAC.

ADV BOSMAN: And the PAC and the IFP were they not opposed to each other in the community?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: They were not.  Members of the IFP were fighting the members of the ANC, the conflict did not include members of the PAC.
	They were against the followers of the ANC.

ADV BOSMAN: Were there no PAC members in the SDU's?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: We had a few of them, not many.

ADV BOSMAN: Was Paul a member of the SDU?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: He was not.

ADV BOSMAN: What was the basis of the friendship or relationship between you and Paul?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: We did not have any friendship with Paul, we were operating with other members of the PAC and that is how we came to know about Paul.
	When we wanted bullets and firearms, they would refer us to him.   We were not so close to him.

ADV BOSMAN: Where is Peter today, the one who fired the shot?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: It was after two weeks of my arrest, that he died.

ADV BOSMAN: Why did you not in your form, application form, state that Peter who had fired the shot, was the one who fired the shot and that he is now deceased?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I am the only person who was arrested, and I was prepared to take all the blame.  I was not prepared to take everything out.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, but Peter was dead, so there would be no blame that would have any effect on him?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I don't seem to understand you.

ADV BOSMAN: Is it correct that at the time when you filled out this application form, Peter was already dead?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: So if you had mentioned that he had fired the shot, what blame could have attached to him then, what could have happened to him, if you told the truth?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes, you are correct, he was already dead.

ADV BOSMAN: When you filled out this application, did you understand that you were to tell the truth?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes.  That is why I am here, I am here to tell you the truth of what happened on that day.

ADV BOSMAN: No, but that is not my question, my question is when you filled out the form, did you understand that you have to put the truth in the form?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes, I knew that.

ADV BOSMAN: But the impression from the form is that you killed the deceased, is that right?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: Yes, the form says so, but it is not me.  I was with those people when the deceased was killed.

ADV BOSMAN: Why did you only mention the names of people who are deceased, it worries me a bit?
	Why did you only mention names of people who are deceased, Mr Mabutsha and Mr Skananda are both deceased.  You mentioned names, but only names of deceased persons?

GLADWELL SELAHLE: I told you who Skananda is, Peter died in 1994 and Mabutsha also died.

ADV BOSMAN: And another matter which I am not clear on is you said in your evidence that you did not have much time to observe the people who ran into the hostel, you also mentioned that they were quite a distance away and now you kill a person after almost two months.  How sure were you that it was the right person?