Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-07

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I don't remember having said that M.Z. Khumalo didn't know about the eSikhawini hit squad, but when operations were carried out, I don't remember telling him.
	But its existence was known to him, but its operations I did not tell him about that.

MR HEWIT: Well, there must be better examples than that of areas that you felt you shouldn't tell Mr Khumalo about.  Can you give us any other examples of where you didn't report to the Planning Committee, other than this Captain Langeni matter which you talk about.  Are there any other examples?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I will make an example about Nkosi Mlaba's death.  His death was not an instruction directly sent to me by M.Z. Khumalo, but Captain Kanyele who was the Head of the BSI in KwaMashu, came to me and requested the Caprivi training staying in Nkosi Mlaba's area.
	I did not know from whom he had obtained information that I had a Caprivi trainee in that area, because I knew that somebody had told him, or must have told him.
	Therefore I gave him the name of Captain Kanyele or rather I gave Captain Kanyele the name of the trainee in the area.  Nkosi Mlaba was then killed.
	The Caprivian then came to me and told me that we had gone to kill Nkosi Mlaba.  I didn't go to M.Z. Khumalo to tell him that.

MR HEWIT: So he would be kept in the dark about that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: There was no reason for me to tell him, because he knew.

MR HEWIT: Any way, it seems what you say now, seems to bear out an earlier part of your affidavit which I put to you, where you stated that the decisions as to who were to be killed, were made on the ground, by the people on the ground and not through the Planning Committee?  Is that right?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Maybe I don't understand you, because I told you that the Planning Committee was responsible for the Caprivians.  On their return they had a meeting on how they would operate.  It wasn't the Central Committee of Inkatha that decided that, it was the Planning Committee.

MR MOTATA: Mr Hewit, I think we should have regard to page 231 of the paginated papers.  It would be not entirely correct to say people on the ground, because he said leadership on the ground.  I think we should differentiate that, because it makes a lot of difference.

MR HEWIT: Leadership on the ground, but as opposed to members of the Planning Committee?  Leadership on the ground were not members of the Planning Committee, were they?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, it is as you say.

UNKNOWN: May I interpose Mr Hewit, just for my own clarity.  I don't want to be confused whilst you are on this issue because I think it deals with a matter which is giving me grave concerns with regard to the structure of command.
	Are you saying Mr Luthuli, that the leadership on the ground, would identify the target to be eliminated, and once that has happened, there was no need for you to go back to the Planning Committee, to clear the identify of that target with them, or to even get their authority to proceed with the elimination of the person, already targeted by the local leadership?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is true.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Hewit.

MR HEWIT: May I move to a different topic now Mr Luthuli.
	Would you please turn to page 289 of your affidavit.   Would you bear with me Mr Chairman, that appears to be an incorrect reference there.  Would you please turn to page 295 of your affidavit.
	Did you at any stage, have difficulties in obtaining weapons?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I did.

MR HEWIT: And to deal with this problem and difficulty of obtaining weapons, did you look for sources where you could obtain them?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: Where did you believe, initially where did you get your weapons from?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: From M.Z. Khumalo.

MR HEWIT: And was a stage reached where he could no longer supply you with weapons?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: And did it fall upon your shoulders to find alternative sources for weapons?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: Did you do that on your own?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is true.

MR HEWIT: But these weapons were required not to commit crimes, but to further Inkatha policy, were they?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: Now, at page 295 of your affidavit, dealing with the topic M.R. Mzimela, do you see that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes.

MR HEWIT: In paragraph 27.2.1 you say I obtained a lot of weapons from M.R. Mzimela?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: Did you find him out as a source, rather than someone else directing you to him, did you discover him as a source?  How did it come about that you knew he was a person to get weapons from?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: I can say that I was called by him and he said to me that there are AK47 rifles and I should inform everybody who needs them, that he is selling them for R1 000-00 each.
	The reason for this was that if they could be given out for free, it would be just as easy to lose them.  The easiest way was to know that a person who got the gun, had it, it belonged to him.
	I don't know why he actually called me specifically, I don't know who told him to call me.

MR HEWIT: In any event, money would be received for these firearms?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, they were paid for.

MR HEWIT: The ones that you received according to you, from Mr M.Z. Khumalo, they didn't have to be paid for by the people in whose hands they ended up in?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Initially he did not charge for the weapons, but as the years went passed, he demanded that the guns be bought.

MR HEWIT: We are dealing specifically, you told us that you obtained weapons from Mr M.Z. Khumalo initially, but that source dried up and alternative sources had to be found, correct?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: When you obtained your weapons from Mr M.Z. Khumalo, he didn't charge you for those weapons then, did he?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, that is so.

MR HEWIT: Weapons sourced from him directly, money was not required?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Well, I wouldn't know whether where he got them from, he paid for them or not.  But when he gave them to me, he did not tell me to take them to a certain person and ask for money.
	He would just tell me to take them to a Chief and I will take the guns and take them there, and I wouldn't receive any money or I wouldn't charge any money.

MR HEWIT: But you weren't required to get any money from the Chief to pay for the gun for Mr Khumalo?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: As I have explained before, that he would give me guns to give to Chief Kaula.  He wouldn't say he is selling the guns, it was just to take the guns and leave them there.

MR HEWIT: But it was different apparently, according to your affidavit, about Mr M.R. Mzimela, is that right?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: M.Z. Khumalo and M.R. Mzimela worked in the same way.  The only difference is that one works for the government and one works for the IFP office.
	If you don't know them, you might actually confuse them, but if you know them well, you would know that they are in the same boat.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think it is quite clear from the evidence Mr Hewit, that he said that Mzimela demanded a payment and, I think that is quite ...

MR HEWIT: Paragraph 27.23 of your affidavit please, on page 295.   There you say on many occasions these leaders would hand me money and I would purchase the weapon from Mzimela and later deliver it to the purchaser.
	I did this on hundreds of occasions, to you confirm that?

DALAQOLO WORDSWORTH LUTHULI: Yes, I do.