Amnesty Hearings — Pietersburg — 1997-06-30

ADV VISSER: Yes, but Mr Chairman I am leading up to another question, and I am going to put it to you straightaway, to explain why I am asking these questions.
	Is your evidence really true here before this Committee today Mr Sehlwana, all of it, is it really true?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: All the stories or issues that I have placed before the Commission is the things that I know.

ADV VISSER: Just answer the question, is it true?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: That's correct.

ADV VISSER: Let's come to the issue of Mr Fuchs shooting somebody at the incident.  I am jumping the gun a little bit, I will come back later to the history.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser you will tell us when it's convenient for us to break for lunch.

ADV VISSER: I am going on to something else so we may as well adjourn now Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought so.  We will adjourn until 2 o'clock.
HEARING ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: (sworn states)

ADV VISSER: (cont)
	Mr Chairman, before we continue, during the luncheon adjournment it did occur to us that perhaps it may serve a purpose to take this witness through the chronology of the events a bit more clearly, from the point of view that it might be unreasonable not to put it to him because he might have a reaction which he's entitled to give.  From that point of view I would ask your permission and your indulgence just to take him through the chronology in the hope that, also as far as the Committee members are concerned, it may give some better background as to what led up to the incident.
	Mr Sehlwana I hope that you heard what I said?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I didn't hear so.

ADV VISSER: Alright.  Well what I want to do is just to take you through a few main points of the events that led up to the incident of the 10th of July.
	I am told that it was during May of 1986 that Mr Mabena informed you that a person had approached him for assistance for people to cross into the Republic of South Africa unlawfully, is that correct?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Even if I don't remember the date correctly, we did agree.

ADV VISSER: Yes.  And is it correct, you already gave the evidence that you reported to Koos van den Berg, is it correct that planning took place as to how the security members were going to deal with the situation?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: May you repeat your question Sir.

ADV VISSER: As a result of your information there was planning that was done, planning was done, isn't that so?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Because of the information I received there was a plan hatched in the office that it should be done in that way.

ADV VISSER: Is it correct that you had quite a number of meetings with Mr Mabena, there were a number of meetings during May and June and July?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I wouldn't say from May but I would say all the time when I was still at work I used to see him, but in this incident we didn't have so many meetings, it might be three meetings, if I remember well.

ADV VISSER: I am told that during May, at some stage after the initial meeting, you were told that three people wanted to cross into the Republic.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I did explain that.  I don't know how to put it again.  I did say the message I received is that six people were intending to cross the border.

ADV VISSER: Well you see Mr Sehlwana isn't it correct that initially there was only talk of three people that were going to come in?  Ms Khampepe put this question to you earlier but you gave the same answer, but are you correct?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: What concerns about three people was about clothes.

ADV VISSER: Alright, let me just put to you what the evidence will be.  Initially you reported that three people were going to cross into the Republic and you were not able to tell whether they were terrorists, as they were then known, or whether they were just illegal immigrants.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: You are confusing me now because I am talking about six people, but you are asking me about three people.  I said that when I talked about three people I was talking about their clothes.  I don't know what you are talking about about the three people who wanted to be helped to cross the border.

ADV VISSER: Alright.  The evidence will be that around the information that three people were going to come in.  Planning was done that you would transport, first of all you would give yourself out as a taxi driver and you would transport them to wherever they wanted to go, was that correct?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: You are just telling me, you are not asking me about what I know, I am telling you about what I know not what you are telling me.  I am telling that I am telling the truth of what I have done and what I know.  I myself did those things, not somebody else.

ADV VISSER: Do you disagree with what I put to you?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: Yes I disagree with the issue of the three people.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Visser may I just interpose.  Mr Sehlwana you do remember making an affidavit which is forming part of the annexure to Exhibit B, and at paragraph 4 you see you say Teboga gave you a list of six ANC members that you had to buy clothing for, was that a mistake?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: He told me about six people, the real issue is that he told me about six people, and when he talked about three people he was talking about clothes.

ADV VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.  I am going to leave that issue aside because it's not really important.  The only important issue is at the time, the other applicants will say, when they were informed that three people were coming in and they were not certain as to whether they were coming in with arms or without firearms the planning was that you had to pretend to be a taxi driver, pick them up and take them to wherever they wanted to go.  Were you ever informed that you should pick them up and take them to wherever they wanted to go?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: From the beginning I did explain that with the agreement I had with Teboga is that I have got to leave them at Ennerdale Bridge and there were six people.  That was the agreement between me and Teboga.

ADV VISSER: Is Ennerdale Bridge at Seshego?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: From Ennerdale you pass a bridge on your road to Dendron before you arrive at Ennerdale that is the bridge and then on the river that's where I should leave them there.

ADV VISSER: Mr Sehlwana I am asking you a simple question, is it at Seshego, this bridge you are talking about?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: On your old road from Seshego you pass the bridge before you reach Dendron, that is the road from Seshego.

ADV VISSER: Right.  Now at one point in time your information was, after you met Teboga, was that the people were coming in on the 24th of June.  Now you may not remember the date, but what happened at that time, and this is what I want to ask you about, is that along the route to Seshego members of the security personnel were placed at strategic points to observe, do you remember that, that anything like that happened?

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't know that Sir.

ADV VISSER: An SADF spotter plane was arranged to fly so that they could pick up the vehicle which you were going to transport these people with and so follow you so that you won't be lost from sight, do you know anything about that?   That's before the day of the incident.

MAROPENG MATTHEWS SEHLWANA: I don't know that, I am hearing it for the first time.

ADV VISSER: Then on the 24th of June these people did not turn up and on the 25th of June they didn't pitch up again.  Now let me take you to the 8th of July.  Between the 25th of June and the 8th of July you were informed, I am told, because that's what you reported, that the people were going to come in on the 8th of July, do you remember the date at all?   If you don't just say so.