Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

MRPETER SOLLER: Were you happy with the Government such as it existed at that time?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: No, I was never happy with the past regime.

MRPETER SOLLER: Could you attribute briefly your reasons therefore?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: We were always harassed by the police with regard to passes or the pass laws, we always had to carry passes around and whenever you were looking for a job you had to have a pass that authorised you to be in that particular area where you were seeking a job.
 I could say that's part of the reasons why I didn't particularly like the past Government even though I wasn't very politically aware at that time and I didn't know what steps I could possibly take in order to avert this.

MRPETER SOLLER: Was it your ambition Mr Mbatha, to see an ultimate change of the Government?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes that is true, I had that desire that there could be some changes implemented with regard to the way in which Black people lived their lives at that time.

MRPETER SOLLER: May please turn to January in 1989, is it correct that you had a friend by the name of Madlaose - if I pronounced it correctly, M-a-d-l-a-o-s-e?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: No, I don't remember the surname of Madlaose.

MRPETER SOLLER: In a similar context - as it pleases you Mr Commissioner, is it correct that you knew a gentleman by the name of Mr Dlamini?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, that is correct.

MRPETER SOLLER: Did Mr Dlamini and his girlfriend - I believe she is a lady by the name of Santo, did they spend any time at your home?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I will say, one day it so happened.

MRPETER SOLLER: Did  you ever then get to a situation where you were approached by someone who was driving a maroon BMW 5 series motor vehicle?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, there is.

MRPETER SOLLER: Would you tell the Commission in your own words what happened about the time and subsequent to the approach by the person who was driving the Maroon BMW 5 series?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: The first time I saw the vehicle I saw it as a vehicle who just came to where we were and it left again and I was with Mr Dlamini at the time.  Finally, I realised that Dlamini was close to the driver of the BMW, I did not take much notice of the driver.
 We were sitting down and drinking our beer and it so happened that each time Dlamini left and came back to drop his girlfriend he would go back to the BMW driver and carry on.  He asked me to go and fetch a ticket from some place near to where we were - a little distance, I was prepared to help him so I did go.

MRPETER SOLLER: Just stop there if you would please.  Did you understand what he meant by asking you to fetch a ticket - as you describe it?

MRPETER SOLLER: Yes, I understood him to be saying he wasn't feeling well, he had to see a doctor and he needed that ticket for that purpose.

MRPETER SOLLER: Did he tell you where to go?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, he did.

MRPETER SOLLER: The ticket may have a more meaningful meaning to you than it does to me but am I to understand that you were asked to make arrangements for Mr Dlamini to see a doctor?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, it is so.

MRPETER SOLLER: Did you know the name of this doctor?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: No, I did not furnish me with the name, he only gave the directions of the building and told me that I will see a board.

MRPETER SOLLER: Where were you at the time when he gave you the directions?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: We were next to a shopping centre and there was a bottle store in that shopping complex.  I have just forgotten the street name as well as the shopping complex's name.

MRPETER SOLLER: It's correct for me to say is it not, that you were not brought up in that area?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, I wasn't brought up in that area.

MRPETER SOLLER: Did you find your way to the rooms of a medical doctor?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, there was a street that led me to the place.

MRPETER SOLLER: To the place of a medical doctor?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: That is correct.

MRPETER SOLLER: Were you given instructions as to what to do when you got to the medical doctor?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I was told the name and the surname to use when I get there.

MRPETER SOLLER: By whom were you told and what name were you told to use?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Mr Dlamini.

MRPETER SOLLER: And did he tell you to use a particular name?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, it is so.

MRPETER SOLLER: What is that name?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: That was Mandla Mkwanyana.

MRPETER SOLLER: Would it be correct for me to spell it for the record as M-a-n-d-l-a M-k-w-a-n-y-a-n-a?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: That's correct.

MRPETER SOLLER: Did you then proceed to approach a lady in the doctor's rooms and book an appointment with her?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, it is true.

MRPETER SOLLER: What questions did that lady ask you besides your name?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: She asked if I had my ID with me.

MRPETER SOLLER: Did she ask you to give a thumb of a fingerprint?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: When she discovered that I did not have my ID, she asked that I give my fingerprints.

MRPETER SOLLER: And you gave your fingerprint?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: That's correct.

MRPETER SOLLER: Did you arrange a booking for this gentleman whose name you were using to see Doctor - we now know it's Doctor Asvat, the same day?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: Yes, it is true.

MRPETER SOLLER: What happened after you'd arranged the booking?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: I left to give him the ticket so he could be able to see the doctor at a time convenient for him.

MRPETER SOLLER: It will obviously be asked of you and we may as well deal with it now, was a time arranged?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: We did not make an appointment but that was up to that person or up to him as to when he decided when he was going to see the doctor.

MRPETER SOLLER: After that, did you together with Mr Dlamini return home?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: No, he had to take me back so that I go my own way and he goes his own way.

MRPETER SOLLER: On the way back, was mention made to you by Dlamini about a gun?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: When we moved - that is when we were at the park or next to the park, that's when he took out a gun and he tested the gun as to whether it was functioning properly - that's the first time I saw the gun.

MRPETER SOLLER: That obviously - well, I don't want to say obviously, that might have come as a surprise to you, did you ask him anything about that gun?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: When he took out the gun he uttered some words even before I asked him about the gun.

MRPETER SOLLER: What were those words?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: As he was testing the gun he said: "This woman has given me a non-functional gun".

MRPETER SOLLER: How did he test the gun Mr Mbatha?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: He cocked it at the top.

MRPETER SOLLER: Did he do anything else to lead him to the conclusion that the gun wasn't working properly?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: As he was pulling it, it dismantled itself and it became crooked in some sort of way and the gun didn't do whatever he expected it to do or whatever he wanted it to do.

MRPETER SOLLER: Madam Interpreter, in using the reference dismantled itself, can I assume that you're talking to something akin to coming apart?

ZAKHELE CYRIL MBATHA: No English translation.

MRPETER SOLLER: Sorry, I was asking that question Mr Chairperson, to the interpreter.

INTERPRETER: The Interpreter is saying what the witness is saying.

MRPETER SOLLER: Did the witness say: "it dismantled itself" Madam Interpreter?

INTERPRETER: That is ...[indistinct] what the witness has said has got no equivalent in - what he has said in Zulu has got no equivalent in English, so he used the next best word to describe what he is saying.  You can ask the witness to further explain himself as to what he means by the gun dismantling itself.