Amnesty Hearings — Mmabatho — 1998-09-21

MR TERREBLANCHE: Mr Menyatsoe, please do not tell me what my rights are.  I am asking you what were your rights?  You are saying that you had the right and according to your training, because you say you are a trained policeman, it was your right to go to three wounded people, this is now after the war situation, after it passed.
	 Because you said yourself, it was the last vehicle that was around.  All the other vehicles had already left and you said this in the document, all the other vehicles had left, this was the last vehicle, we ran towards it.  There weren't any other vehicles around.  The total AWB force was gone, they had already left for the Transvaal.
  They left Bophuthatswana and these media people,  did you see the media, Mr Menyatsoe?  Were there members of the media, were there other policemen?  You say there were no other Officers.  Were there members of the defence force?  You were completely on your own.  You are a Constable, the lowest rank within the police force and there is nobody else who has got a higher rank than you at the scene of the crime, is that correct?

ADV MOTATA: Would we ask you to have shorter sentences because in the process you asked three questions in one question and I think having problems with the applicant.  Just confine your sentences, ask one fact per question so that we get it, so that we are not confused as to what is happening please.

CHAIRPERSON: And also please, Mr Terreblanche, if you could just speak a little slower because the interpreters have to translate simultaneously and it is difficult for them to keep up with you, so just a little bit slower, thank you.

MR TERREBLANCHE: With all due respect Chairperson and honourable members, I am really sorry.  This is a strange place for me and I'd like to adapt to it.

CHAIRPERSON: I can assure you, I say this at every hearing I attend I have to tell people to speak a bit slower so you are not unique in that regard.

MR TERREBLANCHE: I thank you Chairperson.  Mr Menyatsoe , let's start again from the beginning.  You say that you are a trained Constable and you acted on your own initiative and responsibility when you killed the unarmed, injured people.  Is that correct?  You decided yourself that you are going to do that.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes, I took the decision on my own.

MR TERREBLANCHE: You also said that there were no other senior members, or people with higher rank present.  Is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Yes I said that.

MR TERREBLANCHE: So, everybody who was there, Mr Menyatsoe were Constables.  There were no Sergeants or any higher ranks.  Here in this war situation, where the war is fought with Constables or by means of Constables, only Constables.  Is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I did not say that there were Constables only.  What I said is that there was no Commanding Officer at that time and even the Constable can be in charge of other Constables in that situation but I did not say that it was just only the Constables who were in the war, but I am telling about somebody who would have taken instructions from.
	  I had the capacity to give instructions at that time but there was no one specifically responsible at that time.  I did not say that it was only Constables involved, please hear me correct Sir.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Mr Menyatsoe, we will leave it with your answer.  It is correct that that was the last vehicle, the blue Mercedes Benz.   It was a vehicle which was separated from the other vehicles, they were there on their own.  All the other vehicles have already left.  Is that correct?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Mr Terreblanche I did not say that the Mercedes Benz was that last car.  Please don't try and commit me.  I did not say that.

CHAIRPERSON: The question, Mr Menyatsoe being put to you is, was the Mercedes Benz the last car there?  Do you know?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I do not know Sir.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Did you see other vehicles behind the Mercedes Benz, you followed the Mercedes Benz with your eyes up to the point where it got to a standstill?  Were there other vehicles behind them, behind this Mercedes?  Can you please just answer me that?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I was concentrating solely on the blue Mercedes car and I went there and I shot your soldiers and thereafter I went back to the yard.  That is why I say that I do not know whether this Mercedes Benz was the last car.  I did not see if there were any cars thereafter.  I just shot your soldiers and went back into the yard.  That is why I say I did not see if it was the last car or not.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Mr Menyatsoe, you say that this was a war situation.  But you saw no other vehicles behind or around this Mercedes but you are only concerned with the one vehicle.  You saw no other vehicles behind the Mercedes.  Can you remember which vehicles which were in front of the Mercedes?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: Mr Terreblanche, I told you that there were open vans loading your soldiers and the Mercedes Benz was following them and at that time I was still in the yard when they went past and I have explained that to you.

MR TERREBLANCHE: Thank you Mr Menyatsoe.  So the Mercedes went to a standstill and you moved towards this Mercedes Benz.  Would you please tell us what exactly happened.  You got to the Mercedes and what did you find there?  When you walked towards the Mercedes Benz, here is the vehicle, what did you find there?  Please just answer that.

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I ran towards this Mercedes Benz and there I found three of your soldiers next to this Mercedes Benz and I asked them what they were doing there and where were they from and one of them responded that they were from Naaboomspruit.  And I asked them again what are you doing here?  And the other one said go and ask your State President.  After that one of them said, they need an ambulance and I answered him back by saying, why didn't he bring his own ambulance?  And one of them moved and the way he was moving, I thought he was intending to draw a gun and I shot them all at once and I stepped back into the yard.

MR TERREBLANCHE: You were a trained policeman.  You alleged that these people were shooting at other people.  Did you look whether they had weapons with them?  One is against the wheel, one, or two are lying on the ground.  The first thing you had to do was to take their arms, to disarm them.  Did you see if they had arms, did you look for arms?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I did not do that Mr Terreblanche, because it was a war situation.  Even if we were to fight, me and you and if I were to fall on the ground, you wouldn't take me to the hospital if I landed on the ground because of injuries.  Thus I am not fully satisfied by your question.

MR TERREBLANCHE: I don't think you could ever be very happy with questions like this which charge you against the Geneva Conventions.  No person could be happy after he had killed people in those circumstances but you have got to take the pain now and just listen to when I am talking to you.
	Mr Menyatsoe, I asked you a simple question.  Did you look to see if the people who were lying there, if they had indeed weapons with them or if they were not armed?  You yourself has a R4 rifle with you which can kill people.  Did you look?  Did you ask them if they had weapons?

ONTLAMETSE BERNSTEIN MENYATSOE: I did not ask them because I saw them shooting people and even in my direction as well, before coming to that stop.  And therefore I noticed that they were armed.  There was no need and I didn't see the need to ask them as to whether they were armed or not because I saw them shooting in my direction and they had shot somebody who was next to me.  I saw everything.