Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-15

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's right, you may proceed.

MR LAX: Just while you're on there, she also said in reply to your question:  "It wasn't 1997" and you never even said 97, so as far as I can see, she's totally confused and you haven't cleared it up with her.  She used 97 when you said 87 or 77, so just as puzzled.

MR VISSER: Well let me try to clear that up.  Can you tell us today from your own recollection, with certainty, when Nomasonto left South Africa to exile, to go into exile?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: I think it's 1987.

MR SIBANYONI: Maybe I should ask you this question, ...

CHAIRPERSON: Could we just have order from audience, she's not being put into a trap and we don't want - I wouldn't and I resent it that when a witness is talking, that the audience would participate or try to correct the witness, please let's have order.  These proceedings are not different from the Court proceedings and I don't want to exercise my rights because this is a different process, but should I be forced to, I think I will.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mrs Mashiya, are you able to recall years?

MR VISSER: The question is ...

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: I do not remember, this happened many years ago, I do not remember.

INTERPRETER: During what year is it presently?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Now?  I don't know.  I don't know.

MR VISSER: Thank you ...(indistinct).  Look, the point is simply this, that Nomasonto's child must have been born around 1986 for him to be almost two years old.  1985 in fact, to be two years old in 1987 when he was brought to Mrs Mokhele, isn't that so?  She must have been pregnant in 1985, that's what I'm putting to you.

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Well I don't know.

MR LAX: Perhaps this might help.  Do you have any idea how long it was that she was in exile when the child arrived?  In other words, how long had she been in exile when the child arrived, how many years was it?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: It was many years.  I don't know how many years, but she had been in exile for many years.

MR LAX: You see, as far as we understand, the child arrived in 1987 and if she'd been in exile for many years, then she must have left many years previous to that.

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, I don't know the years, really.

MR VISSER: I'm going to step off this issue, Chairperson, it's not that important.  What did she write to you about when she wrote to you, can you remember?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: She wrote to us telling us that she was pregnant, but those letters were read to me by my daughter.

MR VISSER: Yes, what did she in those letters?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: I do not remember, because I was not the person who was reading those letters.

MR VISSER: No, with all due respect to you, whether you read it yourself, or whether somebody else read them to you, that's not the issues.  The point is you knew what was in those letters, isn't that so?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, I did know then, but I have forgotten.

MR VISSER: That's also fair enough.  Let me try to prod your memory.  Did she write to you and say to you that she had undergone military training?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: No.

MR VISSER: Did she ever tell you that she had joined MK and that she was an MK soldier?  What's the answer to ...

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes.

MR VISSER: What did MK soldiers do?  What do you think they did?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: I don't know they were working there, I don't know what they were doing there.

MR VISSER: Weren't they planting bombs in a country and blowing up places?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: She did not tell me about that, I don't know.

MR VISSER: Didn't you know that from your own knowledge?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: No, I don't even know a bomb.

MR VISSER: Are you serious?  Are you absolutely serious that you didn't know that MK was involved in a struggle in this country and that they were fighting a war, didn't you know that?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: I knew that they were fighting for liberation, but I did not know about the bombs.

MR VISSER: Alright.  So you say on a Saturday a stranger, a woman arrives, I take it at your place?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes.

MR VISSER: And she says that Nomasonto says you must come and fetch her baby from a hotel in Lesotho.

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes.

MR VISSER: You then didn't even know that there was a baby that was born, that was alive, you only heard the last time from her that she was pregnant, is that right?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes.

MR VISSER: Were you surprised?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, I was surprised.

MR VISSER: Did you inquire from this lady what this was about?  Did you ask her:  "What did Nomasonto say, why must I come and fetch the child?"

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: She said she wanted to go back to school.

MR VISSER: Who?  Nomasonto?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes.

MR VISSER: But what has that got to do with where the child is?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: She wanted to bring the child back home, because she wanted to go back to school, that is what this lady said to us.

MR VISSER: Let me ask you this, were you satisfied with that explanation?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, I did, because I didn't know anything.

MR VISSER: Alright.  And you then leave for Lesotho, did you go with your husband?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, that's correct, with my husband.

MR VISSER: And you're absolutely certain that you had to fetch the child from Lesotho, not from the Free State, from Ladybrand for example?  You had to fetch the child from Lesotho.

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: She said in Lesotho, that's what the woman said to us, at a certain hotel in Lesotho.

MR VISSER: Did you take the particulars of this person that came to tell you this, in case something went wrong, so that you can contact her again?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: No, we did not.

MR VISSER: Didn't it occur to you that due to these strange circumstances, that it's important to know where you could contact this person again?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: We were happy that we were going to fetch the child in Lesotho at an hotel.

MR VISSER: Alright.  You say she came on a Saturday, she left on a Sunday, you can't remember the month?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes, I do not remember the month.

MR VISSER: Do you remember the year?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: I said it was 87.

MR VISSER: On what day did you leave for Lesotho?  Not the date, just tell me, was it Monday, Tuesday?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: This woman arrived on Saturday and left on Sunday.  We left on Monday.

MR VISSER: Are you quite sure of that?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes.

MR VISSER: Is that something you remember well?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: We left on Sunday, I think.

MR VISSER: The Sunday or the Monday?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: She left on Sunday, we also left on Sunday.

MR VISSER: All that I'm asking you is, is this something that you remember well and that you're reasonably certain about, that's all I'm asking you.

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: I have forgotten about it, but this is what I think, I can't remember.

MR VISSER: Oh I see.  Alright.  Well let me put it to you that as we know the facts, also from Mrs Mokhele's evidence, the child was brought to her on the 24th of December.  The 24th of December was a Thursday and you told us, you told this Committee today that the child was brought on the very same day that you came back after you'd gone to Lesotho.  Do you understand what I'm saying?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: When we came back from Lesotho, when we arrived at home the child was already there.

MR VISSER: Alright.  How did you go to Lesotho?  What form of transport did you use?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: We used the long distance taxi.

MR VISSER: And you were on your way to an hotel?

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: Yes.

MR VISSER: Give us the name of the hotel.

NOSGATI NORAH MASHIYA: She told us from the long taxi we will see the hotel, it's not far from the taxi rank.  We will see that hotel, that's what she told us.