Amnesty Hearings — Welkom — 1998-11-16

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Chair.  May I now call Mandla Wellington  Fokazi?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm informed that the Xhosa interpreter is now available and we'll be able to proceed with the evidence of Mr Fokazi.

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mhlaba?

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Chair.
	Mr Fokazi, for record purposes, can you confirm having been born in 1945, the 2nd of November, is that correct?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: Do you have a family?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: Yes, I do have a family, a wife and children.

MR MHLABA: And you are applying for an amnesty in respect of a crime which was committed on the 2nd of April 1992 around Bethlehem, is that correct?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: And the basis of your application is that you have committed this crime with a political objective, is that correct?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: Did you during that period belong to a political organisation and if that being the case you are requested to tell us the name of the organisation and when you joined it.

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: Yes, I was a member of a political organisation, the ANC.

MR MHLABA: At the time of this incident, that is the incident which you are applying amnesty for, were you employed?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: No, I was unemployed.

MR MHLABA: Are you able to explain the circumstances why you were not working?

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: Yes, I can explain this way, in 1990 I was working at Glodan Engineering in Edenvale.  We were assembling taps.  I was receiving a salary.  Then there were riots between Inkatha and the ANC.  As I was working, but I couldn't go to work because of a problem with transport and I was also scared that I would be affected because of the violence at the time.
	One day I went to the firm and when I arrived there the owner of the firm told me to choose between two things because people around the firm were looking for me, people that I was playing cards with during lunch, so he told me to choose between my job and my life.  I then stopped working because of that, I resigned.
	Then violence continued in Thokoza.  In 1990, before the end of 1990 the ANC took a decision that the community have to protect themselves, it then formed the Self Defence Units.  I was then one of the members of the Self Defence Units.  I was trained in Polla Park.  We were trained by the people who were able to use  guns.  
	The police then came.  We thought that they were trying to bring peace.  After a while we realised that the police were also involved in this.  We reported this to our organisation the ANC, that there are people that are involved in this violence or maybe they are the perpetrators of this violence.  
	Then the ANC didn't trust that because we were the ones who were telling the ANC.  We wanted them to prove this so that when the police came we would then kill them and then show the ANC that here are these people that were involved.  
	And the Minister of Law and Order at that time said that that was not true because he was also the Minister of the Police.  He didn't want to admit that the police were involved but we tried to show them that the police were involved in the violence.
	One day when this violence was still continuing the hippos came.  We thought that they were there to bring peace but we were doubting the white policemen.  And in that hippo with other, the police from elsewhere came to bring about peace in the area.  We realised that those police in the hippo, the people who got out of that hippo were Inkatha members and they attacked us.  A lot of people were injured in that incident.
	Again on one day, to show you that the police were involved, a Blue Ribbon bakery car came and people went there to get bread for their Spaza shops and it happened during that time in that Blue Ribbon car, the Inkatha members were the people who got out of that car.  There were also Boers inside.  There were white people inside that car.  We then saw that this violence is continuing.  It was also reported in the televisions and we were then involved in this.  That is how I lost my job or I resigned.

MR MHLABA: Tell the Committee, Mr Fokazi, about your involvement in the shooting incident at or near Bethlehem where you were subsequently arrested with Mr Makhura and others and convicted and sent to jail.

MANDLA WELLINGTON FOKAZI: On that particular day it was on the 2nd of April in 1992, we were from Polla Park.  Our aim from Polla Park - we received a telephone call from Sebenzile, the deceased.  The call was from Natal and Sebenzile received this telephone call.  They wanted some help.  He was our section commander but there was a central commander, Nozulu.
	They then told us that we were going to a certain place in Inanda in KwaZulu Natal.  We were eight and then we went there but one of us, Johannes Nxala was not a member of the Self Defence Units as we were members of the Self Defence Units. 
	We went through Bethlehem and he had a problem with Sebenzile, he owed him money of the Golden Product.  His brother-in-law promised him money.  We then went to Bethlehem to his brother-in-law.  Unfortunately we couldn't find him in his house, we found Simon Mofokeng in the house.
	He then met with his brother-in-law, Johannes Nxala and he went to the garage.  He then got what he wanted from him.  After a while we continued with our journey.  They had a problem with each other, Sebenzile didn't want to listen to him but as I was close to him I tried to speak to him as he respected me.
	If I'm not mistaken from Bethlehem to that particular area.  I think it is two or three kilometres away from Bethlehem to this area and then there was a T-junction to the left and there's a tar road in that area.  I was at the back, Nxala was in front and the driver.  Nxala and the driver were in the front and Sebenzile, the five of us were at the back.
	When we saw that there was conflict in the car I told Makhura about this conflict in the front seat, then the driver stopped the car, got out of the car, we accompanied Morena and we were going to go back to the car but because we couldn't walk for a long distance they followed us with the car.  
	When we were about three or four kilometres we heard a sound at the back, the AK47 sounds.  We then realised that something was happening behind us.  We then continued, we went forward.  I don't know whether you understand me.

MR MHLABA: Can you proceed and explain what happened?