Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-09-14

MS GCABASHE: I'm happy with that.  Now when you got the second instruction, how many of you made that decision?  This "in consultation" at the game farm, how many of you were there, generals in staff?

MR PRINSLOO: About four.

MS GCABASHE: I counted three, is it four?

MR PRINSLOO: Ja, about.

MS GCABASHE: Four, including yourself?

MR PRINSLOO: Ja.

MS GCABASHE: Were you quorate, did you have a quorum?

MR PRINSLOO: That quorum didn't matter at that stage.

MS GCABASHE: How many would you normally be if all of you were in consultation as the generals in staff, how many would you normally have?

MR PRINSLOO: If there were seven members in the staff, then at least four or five had to be present in order to have a quorum but at that stage ...[intervention]

MR MALAN: The question is, what was the total number of generals who were members of the generals in staff?

MR PRINSLOO: Who visited me?

MR MALAN: No, normally.  How members were in the generals and staff?

MR PRINSLOO: Approximately 13 to 14 persons but that would include those persons who were in command of culture or whatever, it wasn't always persons who were combat generals or had to do with the administration of the wen kommando.

MS GCABASHE: Now really, I am just curious, could four generals, irrespective of their areas of expertise, were you authorised by your organisation to take decisions of this nature?

MR PRINSLOO: No, the decision had already been made.  I just had them come in as a result of the fact that I didn't have any communication with Ventersdorp.  I left a message with Ventersdorp that these persons should contact me urgently.

MS GCABASHE: So the last few decisions were taken in your absence and this information was communicated to you by the visiting general at the game farm, is this what you are saying?

MR PRINSLOO: No, no.

MS GCABASHE: This is where you've lost me.  You see because I understand you to operate as a team but at the same time you talk about people visiting you to approve of what you're doing and then to go beyond Bree Street to other areas of operation which you not discussed before you had come to the game farm.  This is why I'm just asking you to help me understand your role and  your authority to say to your men: "Continue, go to Germiston, go to the other ...[indistinct] areas, Benoni, Krugersdorp and then go to Jan Smuts Airport".  Where did that authority come from?  That is really my problem.

MR PRINSLOO: You see these persons were delegated through Ventersdorp, to come and see me.  Regarding the arrangements and who would have made these arrangements, I wouldn't know.  Who would have delegated them is unknown to me.  Who would have taken the decision that these individuals came to see is beyond my recollection.  I don't who would have sent them.

MR MALAN: But didn't you leave the message for them to see you?

MR PRINSLOO: Yes, but the staff was large.  I didn't say only those specific persons were to come and see me.

MR MALAN: Did you want the entire generals and staff there with you?

MR PRINSLOO: I wanted members of them there.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: And if they hadn't come, would you have been able to make that decision yourself?

MR PRINSLOO: Then I would have sent somebody through but I had to communicate with them.

MS VAN DER WALT: If I understand your evidence correctly, you testified earlier that the decision had been made with generals in staff that explosions would take place?

MR PRINSLOO: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And when you testified regarding the fact that they didn't give you any specific towns, did that have to do with the pipe bombs or which bombs are you referring to here?

MR PRINSLOO: That included the pipe bombs.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you say that on the following morning a discussion was held and a decision was made that the following bomb would be at Jan Smuts Airport, was that the following morning?  I'm just trying to rectify this.  We've got the Sunday evening, the Sunday was the 24th, the election took place on the 27th, is that correct?

MR PRINSLOO: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now this discussion with regard to, and this is in terms of a question asked by the Honourable Chairperson, when did this discussion take place, was that after the Monday morning?

MR PRINSLOO: That would have been early on that Monday morning.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then you conveyed this order to Barnard and the others, is that correct?

MR PRINSLOO: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Where did you convey the order that a bomb should go to Jan Smuts?

MR PRINSLOO: It would have been on the game farm before we left for the shooting range.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you have already testified that this was in order to elicit international attention, the bomb explosion at Jan Smuts?

MR PRINSLOO: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And when you discussed the bomb with Barnard, the Jan Smuts bomb, who were all present during that discussion?

MR PRINSLOO: A person by the name of Koper Myburgh.  I'm speaking under correction but I'm almost certain that the manager or the driver of the vehicle was there.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was that?

MR PRINSLOO: I can't remember the name of that person.  I think his brother was also arrested along with us.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you give any orders with regard to in what this bomb was to be built?

MR PRINSLOO: There was a vehicle, a Peugeot if I remember correctly, on the game farm which would have been used for this purpose.  I saw the vehicle and decided that it could not be used for these purposes because it was in such a bad condition that any person would be able to see or suspect that something was amiss.  I gave instructions for the vehicle to be repaired.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was this the Peugeot which was, according to earlier evidence before the Committee, a stolen vehicle?

MR PRINSLOO: Yes, that's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And according to the applicant, Mr le Roux, he himself repaired the vehicle with parts from his own possession?

MR PRINSLOO: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR PRINSLOO: That's correct Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know where that bomb would be placed?

MR PRINSLOO: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: In whose hands would that decision have been?

MR PRINSLOO: It works like this, anywhere in a military situation the order could be give for such a bomb to be planted and for such an order to be executed but the circumstances prevailing during his action would imply that he would have to use his discretion.

CHAIRPERSON: And is that what happened ...[inaudible]

MR PRINSLOO: It could be so.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't give a specific instruction for this bomb to be placed in Bree Street?

MR PRINSLOO: No.  The Johannesburg bomb, are you referring - I'm referring to the Airport incident.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, we're talking about the Bree Street bomb.  Is that also a case of them having used their discretion and placing the bomb in Bree Street?

MR PRINSLOO: Not really because they had the instruction that it was supposed to be in a busy place.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand that but you didn't receive an order to place the bomb in front of a specific building specifically in Bree Street?

MR PRINSLOO: No, that would have been according to the discretion of the driver himself.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the same of application in other cases?  Did you tell them to go and place the bomb near a taxi rank?

MR PRINSLOO: The person who would have been driving the vehicle or who would have been responsible for the order or for the execution thereof, knew specifically that they had to select a taxi rank.  My instruction initially was never to use a person who didn't know the area very well, it's best to use a person who comes from that area or works there at least.