Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-06-08

MR VALLY: On what basis would they say that?

DR KNOBEL: May I just point out Mr Vally ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: Sure.

DR KNOBEL: You keep on saying this.  Baxil to me did not mean ecstasy, let me make it very clear to you.  Baxil was the product which is on the letter that I wrote in reply to a quotation for that formula which is written on that letter and which Doctor Koekemoer testified was not ecstasy, so please don't put words in my mouth.  I did not sign an order for ecstasy.  I signed an order for a product of which there's a formula there and which I was told is an incapacitating or a potential incapacitating agent.

MR VALLY: We had Doctor Koekemoer who testified that Baxil was the code name they used for MDMA which is called ecstasy.

DR KNOBEL: I've read the testimony of Doctor Koekemoer ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: And if you recall he said that formula seemed to be non-sensical.

DR KNOBEL: Well he may have said that but it wasn't non-sensical to me Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Where did you get the formula from Doctor Knobel?

DR KNOBEL: That letter was drawn up by Brigadier Basson, as you could see from the top of the letter and I was informed that that was the incapacitating agent that they were going to study.

MR VALLY: So you were merely given a document with a formula that you don't understand with the name Baxil?

DR KNOBEL: Which my expert with a Master's Degree in Chemistry told me was an incapacitating agent.

MR VALLY: Alright, this is Brigadier Basson?

DR KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: And you accepted that?

DR KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: You've heard evidence by a number of people who said that Baxil was the code name for MDM ...[intervention]

DR KNOBEL: I've heard that evidence.

MR VALLY: ...[indistinct] or ecstasy.

DR KNOBEL: I've heard that evidence.

MR VALLY: And it's on that basis that I'm saying this.

DR KNOBEL: If it's on that basis it's fine but I don't want you to indicate that I knowingly ordered ecstasy to be produced.

MR VALLY: Well, you are aware ...[intervention]

DR KNOBEL: With the emphasis on the word knowingly.

MR VALLY: You are aware that there were concerns raised by Doctor Koekemoer?

DR KNOBEL: Yes, I heard, I heard that, I read that in his testimony.

MR VALLY: And you are aware that he went as far as talking to General Neethling about it?

DR KNOBEL: I didn't know that he had done it at the time Mr Vally, I read that in his evidence.

MR VALLY: I see.  In any event, the first question, paragraph 3 of this letter, why did he believe that you were the coordinator of the project?

DR KNOBEL: I have no idea.

MR VALLY: Clearly from what he says here, he's threatening to go public unless the money which is allegedly owed to him is paid and to quote him
"The abovementioned project was of an extremely sensitive nature and could have far reaching political ramifications should this matter have to go to Court and evidence be made available to the press and the general public"
Now, why would this issue be this sensitive, that it would have political ramifications and it would be sensitive, if Baxil was just any incapacitant like CR or CS gas?

DR KNOBEL: I gathered that the sensitivity was around the fact that this man had imported through his organisation a substance which was prohibited and which we were studying to make an incapacitant out of, and that he considered that international legal process to be of such a sensitive nature, that's how I understood it.
 Let me just say that Mr Jerry Brandt phoned me repeatedly before this letter arrived, having tried to get Brigadier Basson to settle the account.  And if you will look at the dates here you will see that it took yet another year before the account was actually settlement, and it was because of the fact that Brigadier Basson was involved in the process in Switzerland at the time.

MR VALLY: An order is placed with you, with Doctor Mijburgh and you point out, we're talking about TRC77(a).

DR KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: With Brigadier Basson's reference up there, where he specifically says regarding the manufacture of this particular substance
"Are you going to indemnify us against any prosecution"

DR KNOBEL: Yes.

MR VALLY: Sorry, your reply is that
"We can only indemnify you once you've delivered it"

DR KNOBEL: Correct.

MR VALLY: Now did you have such queries about any other product that you people were busy with?

DR KNOBEL: All the incapacitants that we were dealing with were such types of substances.

MR VALLY: Did get any request?

DR KNOBEL: No, this was the only one that I got and the information that was given to me, that some of the scientists that were going to work on this had some reservations about this and they wanted to have confirmation that this was approved at the top level.

MR VALLY: And why were they concerned, what were the reservations?

DR KNOBEL: I've said to you that all the incapacitants that we were studying, the cannabis, the BZ and the methaqualone and this substance were all restricted substances in terms of ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: Yes, but the question is, why all this concern around Baxil?

DR KNOBEL: I've tried to explain to you that the information that was given to me was that one of the scientists or the scientists that were going to work with it at Delta G had indicated that they wanted an assurance that this order came from the Coordinating Management Committee.

MR VALLY: Did you not make further enquiries, especially since you're not a chemist, why were they so concerned about this particular product?

DR KNOBEL: Not any more than I've already said to you.  I was aware that they were restricted substances and I was satisfied that this scientist had a good reason to want re-assurance.

MR VALLY: Because this is the very same substance which this attorney threatens to go public on and says there will be far reaching political ramifications.  No alarm bells?

DR KNOBEL: This is March 1994 Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: That's the second one yes, sure.  By this stage information had come out already ...[intervention]

DR KNOBEL: And the other one was February '94.

MR VALLY: Yes.

DR KNOBEL: That's a year later.

MR VALLY: No, the first one, the indemnity requested was August 1992.

DR KNOBEL: Yes, I understand but you're referring to this demand from Mr Brandt's lawyer's, that was a year later.  By that time as I had testified already, we had informed the President that we were very concerned about Basson.  We made it clear to him that we had realised that there was something seriously wrong.  In February '94 was at the time of the demarche.

MR VALLY: If you can advise me as to why in November 1994 after the demarche and you were concerned, Brigadier Basson is still writing to you, and I refer to J2, regarding the claim by Mr Brandt?  This is after you were concerned, after the demarche.

DR KNOBEL: That's correct, but it relates to a decision by the Coordinating Management Committee - let me just find that place and I'll show you, I want to show you two documents, if you look at the Coordinating Management Committee Meeting ...[intervention]

MR VALLY: Can you give me the reference please?

DR KNOBEL: Yes, let me just find the place Mr Vally.  Could you just give me a moment because there is a document which it refers to, 24th of January - let me just see where it is dealt with, at the meeting of the 2nd of December 1994, I'm working backwards now but let me just deal with that one first Mr Vally, you'll see that the outstanding claim of Jerry Brandt is discussed there in paragraph 2.  Now where it says there
"The background of the claim is discussed by Brigadier Basson"
and there's a decision about what should be paid.

MR VALLY: ...[inaudible]

DR KNOBEL: Well, it's the Minutes of the Special Coordinating Management Committee held on the 2nd of December 1994.

MR VALLY: ...[inaudible]

DR KNOBEL: Sorry.