Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-04-26

CHAIRPERSON: Did you struggle, grapple with any of
them?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: One of them tried to struggle with me.  He is the one who grabbed me.  His name is Brian.  He is one of the two whom I shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he the - medical evidence was led at  your trial, do you remember that?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: And the judge in his judgment referred to the medical evidence about Ndovela's injury and that it was consistent with him having been shot while he was in a seated position, it went down his body, but you say he was standing up when you shot him.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I cannot disagree with this evidence, but I was just referring to what I personally did.

MS MTANGA: According to the judgment, Mr Mzobe, initially you shot Mr Bazely on his hand and then he fell.  This was when he was trying to stop you from shooting Mr Ndovela, do you agree with this?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: What I can say is that I don't remember who I shot first, but Brian did try to stop me or to grab me.

MS MTANGA: At the time Brian - this is also in the judgment, at the time Brian tried to stop you, the rest of the group ran away except for Ndovela, who had fallen on the ground at that time, and you proceeded to shoot Bazely when he had fallen on the floor and you were still in possession of your gun, why did you shoot at Bazely, at ...(indistinct).

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: After he grabbed me we struggled and he fell down, that's when I shot at him, when he was lying down and he was trying to stand up again.

CHAIRPERSON: How many times did you shoot the man who was lying down?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I don't remember how many times.

MS MTANGA: Do you know Patrick Mbulelo Sebenza?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I know Patrick Sebenza very well, we went to the same school and we used to play soccer together.

MS MTANGA: Was he amongst the people you went there to shoot at?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I only found out in court that he was a witness, but I didn't see him at the time of this scene.  I didn't notice and recognise everyone in the group.  I don't know if Sebenza was there, but when we were in court I came to find out about this.

MS MTANGA: Can I just emphasise this again, Mr Mzobe.  You've just said again that you didn't know or recognise anyone in the group, is that your evidence?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Which group?  Are you talking about the group in the taxi rank in town or the one in Kwakanjaza?

MS MTANGA: I said the group in which Sandile was amongst and the one you went there to shoot at.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I noticed Sandile Khambule.  I didn't recognise the others, but I believed with all my heart that this group in Kwakanjaza was the same group in town, the one that I saw in town.

MS MTANGA: At the time you saw them you just assumed they must all be ANC members who had sworn at you?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: With no doubt I believed so.

MS MTANGA: Mr Chairperson, at this point I would like to have a short conversation with Mr Bazely, because he said he would like to speak to me after he has heard the evidence of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MS MTANGA: The victim.

CHAIRPERSON: You have mentioned the name of one witness, was that Patrick Sebenza?  And the other witness, his statements have been supplied to us, are they available?

MS MTANGA: No, it's only Mr Sebenza who is available.

CHAIRPERSON: Shouldn't they have been made available?

MS MTANGA: They were notified, but they have not, only one person has arrived and his evidence will be the same as Mr Sebenza.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, you can take a short adjournment now.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: The crux of what he says, which is, as I understand his statement, that the group he was with had been in somebody's girlfriend's room and they found it too hot there and they moved out to sit under the tree near Happiness Mtolo's room and they were sitting there drinking beer.  Is that his version still?

MS MTANGA: Yes, that's his version.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mzobe, did you hear what I said then?  That the witness who is going to be called will apparently say that he was a member of a group who had been together that morning, or that afternoon, sorry, and they were sitting under a tree drinking when you approached them.  Similar evidence was I understand, led at your trial.  Do you remember that?

MR LAX: Just press your button please before you talk.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I don't remember them drinking because I didn't see anything, or alcohol there, but I did find them under a tree like I said.

CHAIRPERSON: They were sitting under the three they said.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Yes, that's where I found them.

CHAIRPERSON: But you, in your evidence a few minutes ago said they were all standing.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I found them under the tree like I said.  The two whom I shot at were standing.  I don't remember whether there were others sitting down, but they were standing.

CHAIRPERSON: Well the evidence at your trial was that they were sitting, wasn't it?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I didn't say so in court, they said so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LAX: And the medical evidence says that the one deceased was sitting when you shot him.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I do understand that, I cannot disagree with that doctor, but what I'm saying here is what I remember.

MR LAX: Have you finished your cross-examination?

CHAIRPERSON: And there was also - sorry, before you go on.  There was also evidence of you asking them if they knew who the young boy was that you had dragged along.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: I don't remember saying these words, the only thing that I remember is that when I arrived there I said to them "Yes, men".  I don't remember anything else.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you wish to re-examine?

MR DE KLERK: No thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DE KLERK

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.  Just for the record, Lax speaking.  Mr Mzobe, you made an affidavit in this matter, is that correct?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: That's correct.

MR LAX: And that affidavit appears, there's a translation at page 20 to page 22 of the papers, 23 of the papers and in hand-written script, from page 24 to page 30.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Yes, I can see that.

MR LAX: And you made a X at page 29 and again at the bottom of page 29, is that right?  Is that your signature n fact?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: That's correct.

MR LAX: Did you read this statement before testifying today?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: No, I didn't.

MR LAX: At the time you signed this affidavit it was read back to you?

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: It's just that I don't remember who exactly helped me doing this affidavit, but the person who came to see me told me that he was sent by the TRC to come and take a statement from me.  He told me that he's written down everything I told him, but he didn't read it back to me.  He wrote down what I've told him.

MR LAX: Yes, that was Mr Pelatu Mtetwa.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Yes.

MR LAX: Now is it not correct that you got off the taxi and you were very angry at being sworn at and being prevented from going to Durban.  That is what you said.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: You mean after the taxi rank in Port Shepstone, when I was going back home, or when?

MR LAX: When you got back.

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: Yes, I was angry because I didn't continue with my trip.

MR LAX: You say here in this affidavit
"As they were ahead of me they did not see me."

THULEGANI AGRIPPA MZOBE: When I was approaching them I decided that I didn't want them to recognise me or to see me whilst I was far from them.  I decided to shield, using another route, hiding from a school so that they don't see me while I'm far away from them.  I wanted to appear right in front of them.  That is why they didn't seem until I was right in front of them.