Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-24

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Du Toit, just a very small preliminary announcement to those who are here.  Once again with the heavy television lights and the temperature for those of you who haven't yet taken off your jackets and would like to do so please feel free to get as comfortable as you possibly can so that we can be efficient as possible as well.  Mr Du Toit I am not sure if you were here yesterday but if not let me say that it has become a normal practice to invite witnesses to read their statements into the record and I understand you do have such a statement and I invite you now with the permission of Mr Kemp to read that statement into the record now.
MR DU TOIT :  "I the undersigned, Joseph Hume du Toit
 declare as follows under oath.  I am a colonel and a former member of the South African Police.   I am at the moment a businessman of Bendor Street in Tzaneen.  The contents of this statement fall within my personal knowledge unless otherwise mentioned and is to the best of my knowledge true and correct.   I was during the period of 1 December 1988 to 9 February 1990 attached to the security branch Soweto.  I was attached to the tracing and investigation unit and with my arrival at Soweto I had the rank of lieutenant.  On the date upon which I left Soweto I had the rank of captain. I have been advised that the rest of my career is not relevant for this evidence.   I have been a member of the South African Police since the 4th July 1978 until my retirement on 31 May 1996.  I therefore deal with the matters mentioned in my subpoena.                                         The interrogation and subsequent death of Sizwe Sithole.  I don't know who arrested Sizwe Sithole.  He was during this period seeked by everybody for a number of misdemeanours but I was involved with his initial interrogation shortly after the arrest.  As I can remember he was arrested and interrogated for a short period at the Soweto branch before he was transferred to John Vorster Square.  I can't remember any details of the interrogation and didn't have anything to do with him after he went to John Vorster Square.  I know of the fact that he later committed suicide and that there was a commission of enquiry.  I testified before the Commission and I understand that this Commission has a copy of Judge Goldstone's report that he brought out.  In this regard the police have been acquitted of all blame.  Concerning Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.  Information with regard to Mrs Mandela and the football club came from various sources but I don't personally have any knowledge of any informers associated with the football club or Mrs Mandela.   In general the handling of informers was done by persons specially tasked therewith.        The abduction, assault and murder of Stompie Seipei in 1988 and information in relation to this.  This took place before I started working at Soweto.  The case was handled by murder and robbery and not by the security branch and I played no role in it until I was asked to help with the arrest of Johannes Mabotha.  I want to put it clearly that at the time of his arrest he was not related to the Stompie Seipei matter but was arrested because he had deserted as an Askari and because there was a suspicion that he had been involved with certain illegal actions.  After his arrest I found certain documents which are described by this Commission as the Rheingold Furnishers.  I was part of a group of members.  To the best of my memory after we arrested Mr Mabotha we let De Kock know that we had arrested him because he was a person who had deserted from Vlakplaas.  I cannot remember details but I think De Kock joined us later.  I remember that we took Mabotha and handed him to De Kock but I can't remember whether he requested us to take the man to Soweto and detain him there.  I can't remember specifically that I had anything further to do with him.  I was informed that De Kock apparently alleges that Colonel Potgieter gave him the instruction to kill Mabotha.  I don't know anything about such an instruction and it was definitely in my presence no such instruction was given.    The relationship between security and murder and robbery and Mrs Mandela and this football club.  To the best of my knowledge there was not a branch of Stratcom at the security branch.  As concerns co-operation between other units of the SAP and other agencies there was co-operation between them but there was to my knowledge no specific actions directed at Mrs Winnie Mandela or the football club.                                
 The use of intelligence material and the relationship with intelligence agencies with regard to Mrs Mandela and the Mandela United Football club.                                         Although there was continual contact with the various branches of the security forces, including the security branch of the South African Police and national intelligence, I have no personal knowledge of any intelligence material or relationship with the intelligence agencies which had any relationship to Mrs Mandela or the football club.  The interrogation and death of Themba Johannes Mabotha.  I already dealt with this above.         Information with regard to observations, telephone tapping, buggings, et cetera regarding matters relating to Mrs Mandela and the Mandela United Football Club.  I was at no stage involved in the tapping of telephones or the placement or monitoring of any bugs.   I know from personal knowledge that tapping of phone conversations did take place since I saw transcriptions of such conversations often.  I, however, did not read any conversations that related to Mrs Mandela or the football club.  I had personally nothing to do with the investigation of any of the activities of Mrs Mandela or the football club and can therefore not give any further information in this regard.       
 The killing of Sergeant Pretorius and two MK members, Maluleke and Mbnenge.  These events took place before I was transferred to the branch at Soweto and I have no personal knowledge of these events".

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally.

MR VALLY: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Du Toit, you received daily or had sight of daily transcripts of the bugging of Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's telephone.  Is that correct?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: That is not what I said.

MR VALLY: Well tell us what you said.

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I said that I saw transcripts of tapping of the conversations but I never saw anything about Mrs Winnie Mandela.

MR VALLY: Mr Du Toit we have had evidence here that there were daily briefings wherein relevant telephone - transcripts of telephone conversations which were tapped here handed in.  Do you deny that there were such daily briefings?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Mr Chairman, I wasn't part of the management team at security branch and subsequently I wasn't involved in all the meetings that was held daily.

MR VALLY: Were you involved with the daily briefings?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: No, sir.

MR VALLY: Were you involved with any briefings regarding Mandela United Football Club?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: No, sir.

MR VALLY: Were you involved at all in any of the incidents regarding Mandela United Football Club?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: No, sir.

MR VALLY: How do you then explain your involvement in the arrest of Mr Themba Mabotha?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: I was part of a group and I was given an order to go with Colonel Grobbelaar to I think it was Groblersdal or Marble Hall.

MR VALLY: And why were you given this order?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: Sir, I was part of the investigation unit and I received an order from Colonel Grobbelaar to assist him and I did it.  There is no particular reason that ...

MR VALLY: Did you know why you were going to Groblersdal?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: To arrest a person from - deserted from Vlakplaas.

MR VALLY: Is that why you were going there?

JOSEPH HUME DU TOIT: That is correct, sir.