Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 2000-11-14

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, it wouldn't be entirely correct that when they left Ladybrand, these people were not seen again.  It wouldn't be entirely correct, because Jantjie says he and Jagga met Betty Boom in Maseru.  So it wouldn't be entirely correct.  It's only after they were told telephonically by Betty Boom that they were required in Lusaka, that they didn't see them anymore.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Lax.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chair.
	Did you not ever get reports that certain people were moved or deported to certain places and that they'd arrived there?  Surely that was common place in your files.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: We received such reports on the movement of people, but we must also remember that the reports, such reports concerning suspects from the different areas were only sent to those areas, they weren't disseminated right throughout to every Security Branch office there was.  Perhaps they could have been sent to our Head Office and they didn't inform us, that could have happened.

MR LAX: Mr Robertshaw, if you were monitoring Lesotho and person X gets deported from Lesotho to Zambia, the report would come back to you that they'd arrived in Zambia.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, Chairperson, but that is not what you asked.

MR LAX: That's exactly what I'm asking.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Well then I misinterpreted your question.

MR LAX: That's exactly what I'm asking you.  I'm saying, if these - if we're going to work on the assumption that these four people went back to Lusaka, where something happened to them, which is one of the probabilities and certainly one that the applicants are suggesting, your intelligence sources in Lusaka would have known about that and reported that back to you, because they were profile people in your files.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's correct, if they used their proper names, if they used the names and they knew that they were coming from that area.

MR LAX: You would have had them under the MK names, you would have had them under every alternative name possible.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I don't know if we would have had.

MR LAX: Well, if your men had debriefed them properly you would have had every possible name they might have used.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Possibly.

MR LAX: And you said they were good at their jobs?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: They were good at their jobs.

MR LAX: And similarly, if something that happened to them in Maseru, it's an unusual event for disciplinary action to take place in Maseru, but assuming it had, through your sources you would have heard about it.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: We would have heard about it, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And you never did.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: And we never did, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Now the last question and it really is the last question.  Why was it necessary for them to be guarded?  You were the Commander, why did they have to be guarded?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, the word guarded is - I'm not, they were looked after more than guarded, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well that's not what Thulo describes, with the greatest of respect, Sir, he describes them being akin to prisoners.  In fact he went further, he said he would have expected captives to be treated like that.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Well perhaps he saw it like that, it wasn't a question of guarding them as such.

MR LAX: Well he certainly thought he was guarding them.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Perhaps he thought so.

MR LAX: The point is, why was it necessary to guard people who were co-operating with you so stringently?  Even if it was just taking care of them, why was it so necessary to people who were co-operating with you?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, the place that they were being kept in the first place, it was being used as a safehouse.  Secondly, it was in a farming area and we had no control of who was going to come up to the house and who would not come up to the house.  We didn't want them to go outside, they'd later on perhaps be able to identify the house, which is not a sound thing.  There's lot of aspects that come into play here.  They weren't being guarded as if they were prisoners.

MR LAX: Well if you had that concern, why didn't you just blindfold them on the way into the house?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: My recollection is that they were.

MR LAX: Well no-one said that.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: No, I don't think anybody was asked, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Well it's not something you need to ask them, it's quite an important factor.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Well that is my recollection, they were.  And that is standard procedure with all of us, whenever you go to a safehouse or a safe premises, the people are blindfolded and they don't see where they're going.

CHAIRPERSON: With KK, what we know is that they used his belt to tie his hands.  Do you recall hearing such evidence?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: That's what I heard, Chairperson.

MR LAX: So I mean there's been no testimony whatsoever from any of the other applicants that there was any blindfold used on anybody.

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: Chairperson, I don't think the people were asked if it was such.  I can't comment on the evidence they gave.

MR LAX: Look that's a matter for argument anyway, but you'd certainly concede it's quiet a relevant piece of information?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: I beg your pardon?

MR LAX: You'd certainly concede it's a relevant piece of information?

COLIN ANTHONY PECKENHAM ROBERTSHAW: It's a relevant piece of information, yes Chairperson.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Lax.  Mr Visser, any questions arising from what the Panel asked?

MR VISSER: No thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Malindi, anything?

MR MALINDI: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Malindi.  Mr Mapoma, anything arising from what the Panel asked?

MR MAPOMA: None Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr Robertshaw, this brings us to the end of your testimony and you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: And I'm concerned about Mr Visser's voice, it's running away, I wouldn't say it's hoarse, and it would be an appropriate time to take the day's adjournment and reconvene tomorrow at nine.  And I would request counsel to see me in chambers after this adjournment.

MR VISSER: Yes Chairperson, as it pleases you, but if I had torture myself I just, lest I forget, have to tell you I can either do it this afternoon or tomorrow, I'll do it tomorrow with your leave, to tell you that we've made certain attempts to obtain information in regard to Mr Ngono, and these attempts are still ongoing and they're attempts in Lesotho.  What we're trying to locate is the docket or the inquest file relating to Radebe and/or to this situation.  We have not been successful.  I will tell you tomorrow what the endeavours are that we made.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for that, Mr Visser.  We adjourn until tomorrow at 9a.m.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS