Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-21

MR HLONGWANE: : I was walking with Lucky Mbanja and we met them -  there were 3 of them, near a certain passage near the clinic.   On meeting them, at the time our intention, because these people were ANC members, we greeted them.   They greeted us back.   Lucky then said do you recognise this person and I said: `no'.   And he said: `but who are we looking for?'   This is the big fish and I said: `Who is it', and he told me who it was.   We turned and we passed them and then made another U-turn and then we approached them and attacked them near the passage.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : What time was it when you met these people, Mr Hlongwane?

MR HLONGWANE: : It was at night.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Approximately at what time at night?

MR HLONGWANE: : Between 7 and 8.

MR WILLS: : And is it not so that you pulled out your firearm and shot at Vincent and one of the boys, and Lucky shot the other boy?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: : And is it not also so that all three boys fell to the ground?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: : And is it not also so that you thought that you had succeeded in killing all three of them?

MR HLONGWANE: : That's the impression we got.

MR WILLS: : Now what section did this occur in?

MR HLONGWANE: : H2.

MR WILLS: : And who was in control of that particular section.   Which political party?

MR HLONGWANE: : The ANC.

MR WILLS: : You say then - you go on and I refer you to page 179 - The Murder of the ANC Youth.   You shot another boy whose identity you don't know.   Is that correct.   The same night.   You and Lucky?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: : And you intended to kill this boy?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: : Why did you shoot him?

MR HLONGWANE: : We were just shooting any boy that we came across.

MR WILLS: : And why was that?

MR HLONGWANE: : The Mayor and his wife, they were not pleased about a day having gone by without a gun shot being fired, and ...

CHAIRPERSON: Can you please keep quiet?

MR HLONGWANE: : The Mayor, Mr Biyela and his wife were not happy about a day having gone by without a gun fire and they would come back to us and say: `Sons, not even a gun shot?'

MR WILLS: : But this person - how did you know that he was an enemy or did you know he was enemy?

MR HLONGWANE: : I'd like to explain to this Committee that there is just one small group of Inkatha in eSikhawini, J2 in particular.   When we arrived at eSikhawini it was indicated that whatever you came across, you had to shoot.   Anybody that you came across in other sections, for example, had to be killed and then go to report to Mrs Mbuyazi.   It was not important who you shot.   If a person was shot that had to be reported, but not in J2.  There were many people in this hole from J2, for example, and on arrival at eSikhawini I was instructed thus;  and I would go out in the evening to shoot.   Mr B B Biyela would make it a point that when I came back in the evening, for example, the house that I stayed in - he would come to my backroom and ask me how many people we had shot that night.   That very same time, he would telephone Mrs Mbuyazi who would come immediately to be reported on the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: This other youth that you say you shot after you shot Vincent.   Was he also a pedestrian or walking in the street?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: : I see in paragraph 126, you report a complaint that you made to the Mayor.   Can you tell the Committee what that complaint was?

MR HLONGWANE: : I was complaining that I was no longer able to sleep at night because Kina would come and pick me up now and then, and the following morning I had to be at the Mayor's place, guard the Mayor.   I had to sleep in the car sometimes, wake up and I felt that this was too much.   I was not able to guard the Mayor and kill people at night at the same time.   This was too much.   That was my complaint.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Mr, may I interpose Mr Wills.   Mr Hlongwane I note that you alleged that you lodged this complaint on the same day after you had killed the boy that you had met, walking along a footpath, when you were in the company of Mr Mbanja.   Is this true or was the complaint lodged on another day?

MR HLONGWANE: : Shortly I'd like to explain.   Things here seem to be mixed up.   They are not following the same sequence.   Some happened earlier and some of the things happened after.   Things are not following the same sequence.

MR WILLS: : I think the - this boy that you shot walking in H2 section - what time of day or night was that?   Can you remember, I mean was it in the day or was it in the night?

MR HLONGWANE: : It was at night.

MR FALCONER: Did you shoot him close range?   Were you close range when you shot him?

MR HLONGWANE: : I shot all of them at close range.

SISI KHAMPEPE: : Why I'm asking that question Mr Hlongwane is that at paragraph 126, you state that later that day you lodged a complaint about you being the only one who had to do all the work, to Mr B B Biyela, and from my reading it would appear that the complaint was lodged on the same day after you shot the boy at H2, and in your evidence you have testified that this person - the boy was shot at about 7 or 8 at night.   So I'm just worried about the day that you are referring to at paragraph 126.

MR HLONGWANE: : I would not - I said I am not in a position to say exactly as to whether the complaint was lodged the same evening or the following day.

MR WILLS: : Thank you.  Mr Hlongwane, now I can see from your Affidavit on page 127 that this complaint was attended to and then certain other people were brought to guard the Mayor and then you were free to continue with your operations, your hit-squad operations.   Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: : Can you think of any reason why Mayor Biyela didn't keep you as a guard and get somebody else to conduct the hit-squad operations?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes, because people at eSikhawini had to continue dying.   He phoned Mr MZ after having attended to my complaint and then I went to stay with Romeo Mbamba, because I had to continue with the work that I was supposed to do.

MR WILLS: : Were you regarded as being quite good at that sort of work?

MR HLONGWANE: : Not at eSikhawini only.   In the whole Kwa Zulu, Natal, right up to the Eastern Transvaal.

MR WILLS: : I am going to turn now to page 180 of the record and deal with the attacks on ANC members.   This is being covered by Mr Mhambo and Mr Mkhize.   It concerns the incident where Mr Cele brought a vehicle from Ulundi and that night you went out and you killed certain people, quite close to - I think three people died that we know of, quite close to the Umzemgwenya Lower Primary School.   Do you recall that night?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes I do recall that.

MR WILLS: : Romeo has testified and Kina has testified as to what occurred this night and I don't want you to have to repeat that, only to confirm that you heard what they say and you confirm what they say, is in fact true.   Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes that is true.

MR WILLS: : The only thing that I want you to testify on your own in this regard is you saw when Mr Mkhize was giving evidence, you saw when Mr Ngubane was asking questions, that Mr Nkosa Nati Jouber was brought forward for all of you to see.   Do you remember ...(indistinct) Committee members.   I know that you don't remember his name, but what I'm saying is do you recall the person who was standing here, who was clearly very badly injured, even now;  standing in front of the Committee a couple of days ago?

MR HLONGWANE: : Yes I do remember.

MR WILLS: : Do you recognise that person?

MR HLONGWANE: : I remember the incident as to how it happened.   I cannot identify him because there were many of them and I'm not in a position to identify him perhaps, but I remember the incident.