Human Rights Violation Hearings — George — 1996-06-19

MARY BURTON: Thank you very much Ms Hlazo for telling us all of that the sergeant in the police station who was so rude to you when you were asking questions about Nkosinathi, do  you know who he was?

MS HLAZO: I don't know his name.

MARY BURTON: And then after the post-mortem you were able to get Nkosinathi's body and to bury him - were you able to hold a funeral and did you hold that in Oudtshoorn?

MS HLAZO: Yes we had the body on Friday as they said so and the funeral was held in Oudtshoorn.  After the funeral they said there will be a case court - court case and his father managed to attend.  And they told him that  [indistinct] Hlazo has been shot by a heavy gun, he asked whether they - who was carrying the gun and they couldn't answer him.

MARY BURTON: Thank you, and was Nkosinathi a member of Bhoyo is that why they came to ask for the books.

MS HLAZO: Yes he was a member of  Bhoyo, in 1985 while the three kids were shot, the youth of Oudtshoorn did go and they couldn't sleep and the policeman avoided them to  get inside, that's why they were looking for them and that's why he decided to ran away from Oudtshoorn to George.

MARY BURTON: Thank you - the time that you - the police came to take you and - in the van and the other people that you told us about, the - the people - you gave us the names or the identifies of some of the people who were with you in the van and then afterwards when you were - when you were held....[intervention]

MS HLAZO: Yes it was a priest Ms Madikane, they were already in the van and this little guy  - child.

MARY BURTON: In George when you were kept in the single cell and when there were other, then some of the time you were in the single cell for four days and then some of the time you were with other people is that right?

MS HLAZO: When we were there we were together with Mamma Madikane and the other women from Aberdeen and then they gave  me notices about my prayer gatherings, because that's not a place to hold prayers.  If I knew prayers, I wouldn't have been there.  So they changed me from there and they were taking me to this  single  cell.

MARY BURTON: [indistinct] and after the single cells, did they take you back into the other cells?

MS HLAZO: From the single cell I  was taken to another cell,  Cell 6, it was bigger than the others, where I met women from Graaff-Reinet and Jansenville.

MARY BURTON: Do you know those women, would be able to get statements from them?

MS HLAZO: I am sorry I can't remember their names.

MARY BURTON: [indistinct] from Graaff-Reinet and Aberdeen did you  say.

MS HLAZO: Yes.

MARY BURTON: And Jansenville - thank you very much Ms Hlazo - I think it helps us to understand the whole story of the young people who were in Bhongulethu and then dispersed to other areas when it wasn't safe for them to be there, it's just for your son it was not safe even somewhere else.
 I'd see whether any of my colleagues want to ask other  [indistinct]

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Ms Hlazo while you were in detention did the police ever beat you or physically abuse you at all?

MS HLAZO: No they didn't beat me - not at all.

RUSSELL ALLY: Ms Hlazo the claim by the police was that your son was wanted in connection with arson and murder and that when they tried to arrest him he ran away and that's when they shot at him.  Now did anything ever happen about these alleged charges of arson and murder.  Did the police - did the police ever follow this - this up or did the matter just end there?

MS HLAZO: What do you mean by followed it up because when they arrived in Oudtshoorn they didn't mention anything like that.  What do you mean -  I don't know I couldn't clear, I couldn't get a clear information even if while his father was there, they couldn't give hi a clear information  [indistinct] that there was no-one carrying the gun, they just said a gun shot him.  I couldn't get a clear information.

RUSSELL ALLY: And these clear allegations against your son of arson and murder, what - what happened after that, after your son was killed, did the police ever come back on these issues, or did they just leave the matter?

MS HLAZO: Yes they tried to - we tried to investigate but it couldn't go on.  Till this happened up till his father - his brother who was in exile came back and he tried to follow it up and he wanted to make a claim from the lawyer because of Nkosinathi's death - even if he did - even if he committed any crime they had no right to shoot him - they should have arrested him, not killed him.  He was - my son was the one who tried to persuade and follow the case and it's in the lawyer's hands.  
 We had no way to follow it because we don't have any idea what happened to him.

RUSSELL ALLY: And is the case still with the lawyer now?

MS HLAZO: No that lawyer couldn't make it because it was last year then and then he kept quite, that's why I have decided to come to the Truth Commission and he gave me the - the lawyer gave me the papers and he told me that he tried his best to contact the Commission but unfortunately he couldn't make it, but we gave him - we paid the costs.
 Now when I ask for the papers, he gave me the papers and he said if - is there anything like claim that appeared I must just - I must go back to him again and tell him.

RUSSELL ALLY: [indistinct] papers now?

MS HLAZO: I do have the papers, the girl - the lady who was taking the statement gave me the Photostat copies.

RUSSELL ALLY: Thank you very much.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Ms Hlazo how old was Nkosinathi when he died?

MS HLAZO: He was 22 years.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: And was he working?

MS HLAZO: He was a student.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Was he your only child?

MS HLAZO: No he was not my only child, I do have others.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Could you briefly tell us what the - what has been the impact of his death and also the impact of your detention?

MS HLAZO: I for one I struggled  - spoiled my health as from 1985, we were not  settled down, because policeman had to come back in and out looking for my older son, he said he was the one who gave the influence, the UDF is in the location because of him, so he decided to go to exile.
 I told him not to go but he insisted on going.  On that day when the three children were shot and while he picked up one of these kids and says he tried to help and pick him up and he also had something hitting him but unfortunately for him, he was shot.  He died because of car accident, he had that bullet on his head, they couldn't take it off, unless he has got headaches time and again.  I think those were the things that  [indistinct] let him to do these things.
 I would like to know from the Commission can't you help me - can't you help me to take that bullet out of his head, maybe it will damage him worst and worst, the bullet is in the stomach from  the girl, she was shot by a kitskonstabel. 
 So much when these things happened they cause me headaches, sometimes I get dizzy and when I go to the doctors they tell me it's because of my nervous in the head but they can't help me, I have been using tablets but they are not helpful.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: [indistinct] is it your daughter who has a bullet in the stomach?

MS HLAZO: Yes I am talking about my daughter now.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: [indistinct] saw the doctor?

MS HLAZO: It was long time ago here, because this happened in 1986 - while we took her to the doctor, the doctor said no we can't take out the bullet.  Sometimes it affects her legs, we think maybe it's that bullet that is inside the stomach - she is Urina Hlazo.

MARY BURTON: I don't - is there anything else you would like to say?

MS HLAZO: There is nothing else I would like to say.