Amnesty Hearings — Nelspruit — 1999-02-04

VOICE SAMBO: Yes, he told me so, but he said to me exactly - if I can explain exactly what he said to me, this person from security branch, I didn't force him to tell me this, I went to his house and I requested to see him, because I knew that he was one of the people who used to come to my place who was with the security branch, at the time I didn't know him, but then later I knew him.   I don't know whether I should tell the committee his name, because I don't have a problem with that, if the committee will allow me to say his name, I will.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may do so, Mr Black, I mean... (intervention).

VOICE SAMBO: Malopi.   He was working for the security branch, but he was working at the gate.   I wanted to get information from Malopi, I went to his house and then he said to me he really wanted to speak to me, but not at his house, he will come to my place.   At that time he was no longer working at Komatipoort.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was he working?

VOICE SAMBO: He had resigned, this is what he told me, he resigned because he wanted to go back to school.

CHAIRPERSON: And when was this information disclosed to you?

VOICE SAMBO: After the incident of shooting, after the shooting incident with the police.

CHAIRPERSON: And when had he resigned from the police force?   By "him", I mean Mr Malopi.

VOICE SAMBO: After the incident.   It's just that I don't know for certain, but it was after the incident when he resigned.

CHAIRPERSON: But he told you when he was no longer with the police force?

VOICE SAMBO: Yes, he told me.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just ask a question here?   You said that he worked at the gate, was it like sort of a watchman at the gate or what was his function, or do you mean at the border gate, it's not clear to me.

VOICE SAMBO: Let me just clarify this.   In Komatipoort, in town, policemen are working in different departments.   The ones who were responsible for killing people, they are placed or their offices are at the border of Mozambique and South Africa, next to Nkomaze River, that's where he was working.   When I say the gate, I mean the border gate.

ADV BOSMAN: And do you know what his rank was, what was his rank?

VOICE SAMBO: I'm not sure, but I don't think he was someone who's high on the hierarchy, I think he was a little bit lower.   This is just my suspicion.

ADV BOSMAN: Ja, this is what I am trying to establish is what sort of knowledge he could have had, but do you have any idea of what his age was, you said he was going back to school, was he a very young policeman?

VOICE SAMBO: Older than me, he may be two years older than me or three years older than me.

ADV BOSMAN: I don't know how old you are, but could you just try and translate that into his age at that time?

VOICE SAMBO: I think he was 33 years, and I think at that time I was 28.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You may continue, Mr Black.

MR BLACK: Thank you, Madam Chair.   Now, just to conclude this evidence, Mr Sambo, you say in paragraph 21 of your affidavit, I'll just read it out to you and you'll just confirm.   You say
"I regret the shock and suffering endured by the members of the family of the deceased."
You go on to say that:-
"As an MK soldier, at all material times..."
that's not your words, but:-
"...at all relevant times, I took part in various operations."
You say:-
"It was my genuine belief that the deceased was an enemy agent whose bent, or whose intention, was to kill you or eliminate you and he had to be stopped as he had already shot you first."

VOICE SAMBO: It is true.

MR BLACK: Okay, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Black, that should conclude Mr Sambo's evidence.

MR BLACK: Yes.   May I just ask, is there anything further that you wish to add to what you've already said?

CHAIRPERSON: Which is relevant, Mr Black... (intervention).

MR BLACK: Which is relevant, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...to the offences for which he seeks amnesty, that must be cardinally clear to Mr Sambo.   I am sure you would like to say far much more in respect of his harassment and the difficult circumstances around which his family members lived as it can be gleaned from the papers before us, but we'd want him to confine himself to facts which would only support the acts for which he seeks amnesty.

MR BLACK: Do you understand, Mr Sambo?   Now just simply, we've concluded the evidence, you've given evidence even on paper, although you might not have said everything about your harassment, about the surrounding circumstances under which you believed that at the time of the killing, you were being, this was an assassination plot on your life?

VOICE SAMBO: Yes, there is something I would like to add on top of what I've said already.

MR BLACK: In connection with what?

CHAIRPERSON: Is this relevant, Mr Sambo, is that... (intervention).

MR BLACK: Okay, what do you want to say?

VOICE SAMBO: I want to explain something to the committee, that I didn't list out every little thing which the whites have done to me, or the policemen have done to me, because I didn't know that I was supposed to... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sambo, I'm going to interrupt you.   Mr Black, let us not be disappointed in how you are conducting your evidence in chief.

MR BLACK: No.

CHAIRPERSON: We want facts around the offences for which Mr Sambo is seeking amnesty.

MR BLACK: Okay, Mr Sambo, let me put it this way then, can we, would you be satisfied, tell the committee that what is contained here relating to all the harassment, what suffering your family has undergone, both physically, mentally and otherwise, the committee has already expressed that they understand that, but you are saying, okay, you haven't told everything to them, but there are other facts, but we don't, at this stage, need to know what those other facts are and incidents of harassment, there is sufficient before the committee to understand, in my submission, that you were harassed.   What they were concerned about is what you believe at the time of the shooting.

VOICE SAMBO: Nothing.

MR BLACK: Okay, there's nothing further, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK

MR BLACK: Madam Chair, that would, at this stage conclude the evidence of the applicant.   We were going to call another witness, but it was simply going to be of a confirmatory nature and the committee has already their, if not their acceptance, but their understanding of what is contained in the papers before it under oath.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't want to dictate to you, Mr Black, on how to run your client's application, it is your duty to do so... (intervention).

MR BLACK: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...as best as you can.   If, in your best judgment, you feel that you still have to lead further evidence to support Mr Sambo's application, we will not prevent you from doing so.

MR BLACK: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: However, if that evidence will be the evidence only to show how Mr Sambo was harassed prior to the commission of the offences for which amnesty is being sought, we will remain again in our view that I think that information has sufficiently been conveyed in his application and pertinently in his two affidavits.

MR BLACK: Yes.   Madam Chair, that's why I say it was really confirmation about events leading up to the incident, and the belief held by both Mr Sambo and members of his family as to what these people had been doing on his property.   Whether the belief is justified or not, I've explained that to Mr Sambo.

CHAIRPERSON: Having regard to what I've just said... (intervention).

MR BLACK: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ...you will then obviously exercise your mind whether there really is a need to call such further testimony to support the main application.

MR BLACK: Yes.   No, in my discretion, I don't think it would be necessary at this stage.   Thank you.   Ms Thabete, I'm sure you have questions to put to Mr Sambo.