Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1999-05-05

MR LOWIES: The reason why I'm asking is, this statement reads that you are, when this was taken, that you are presently serving 16 years for murder at Maximum B Prison, Leeuhof.  That is completely wrong in three regards.  Firstly, nobody took a statement from you in Leeuhof, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: Secondly, there is no Maximum B Prison in Leeuhof?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: And thirdly, you did not get, you were not sentenced to 16 years, you were sentenced to an effective 4 years imprisonment, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that's correct.

MR LOWIES: Then if we look at this statement again and compare it to page 6 of Exhibit R, we see that the one statement refers to a conviction and sentence on the 1st of March '96, whereas the other one, on page 8, refers to the following
"I was convicted in February 1995"
Do you see that?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I can see it, but the fact is that I was convicted on the 14th of February 1995.

MR LOWIES: So page 8 in this case is correct, but page 6 is incorrect.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: Now it appears to me, Mr Nosenga, that it could not have been the same person - if you just look at these mistakes in the first paragraph, who took the unsigned affidavit from you, because of these mistakes that I've indicated to you.  Do you agree?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.  What I'm saying is I do not recall.  It is possible that that is what happened.

MR LOWIES: However, is it correct that you have a standard one education?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.

MR LOWIES: Is it correct that you reside at - or you resided at 671 Newman Road, Everton, until 1990?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is incorrect.  I was born in Everton at that address.  I left in 1991 to go and reside at the Madala Hostel.

MR LOWIES: So you were actually born and raised here in Everton?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I was born and raised there.

MR LOWIES: Where did you go to school, also Everton?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I started school in Everton.

MR LOWIES: Now isn't the language that is predominantly spoken in Everton, Sotho?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It is Sesotho, but there are AmaZulu and AmaXhosa living there as well.

MR LOWIES: No, but I'm talking about the language that's predominantly spoken in this area, in the Vaal area.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Just because the majority speaks Sesotho, I would not do the same.  I am UmZulu and my mother is Xhosa and therefore I cannot speak other people's language.

MR LOWIES: But I haven't asked you that, I asked you whether the language predominantly spoken in this area is Sotho or not, what do you say?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: Right.  Yet you say you can't speak the language.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I do not know that language. I can hear a word or two here and there, therefore I cannot claim to know Sesotho.

MR LOWIES: If you can here it, can you speak it here and there?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I speak my father's language, which is IsiZulu.  I cannot speak a language that is not my mother tongue.

MR LOWIES: Okay, then we know that there's another aspect which you disagree with, and that is the fact that you left the township in 1990, you say no, it was 1991, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: That is correct.

MR LOWIES: You then say in this statement
"Themba Khosa was the Chairperson of the IFP in the Vaal Triangle"
Do you regard this as being correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I said he was the Chairperson of the IFP Youth Brigade.

MR LOWIES: When did you say this?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Please repeat that?

MR LOWIES: To whom did you say this?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I said he was the Chairperson of the IFP Youth Brigade in the Vaal or in the Johannesburg area.

MR LOWIES: So you would never say that he would be the Chairperson of the IFP in the Vaal Triangle because you know it's not correct, correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Ja.  I knew him to be the Chairperson of the IFP Youth.

MR LOWIES: Where?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: In the Vaal region.

MR LOWIES: You say in this statement that
"Before we left the township we performed ..."
Sorry, may I rephrase with your permission, Chairman?  The question that I would like to put to you is the following; in the statement you make mention of the fact that you were part of a group from the hostel, that is now KwaMadala, who went on the rampage in Boipatong in June 1992.  You go on to state:
"Before we left the township we performed various rituals"
And then you continue to say:
"Just before we were about to leave, Sergeant Peens of the SAP came and gave Katisi, Victor Kheswa some money"
My question relates to the last aspect, and that is that shortly before you were about to leave Peens arrived and that he gave money to Kheswa.  Is this correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, that is correct.  But I just want to state that before we went to attack Boipatong, he did come to the hostel during the day.  I don't know how much it was.  I did say that, that is true.

MR LOWIES: Who came to the hostel earlier today, Kheswa or Peens?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Peens.

MR LOWIES: Now, what was the money for?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I don't know, I did not ask him.

MR LOWIES: Where was the money handed over to  Kheswa?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: May the question please be repeated.

MR LOWIES: Where did this incident take place, the handing over of the money by Peens to Kheswa?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: They were outside the hostel at the Iscor parking area.

MR LOWIES: Now how long before the incident did this happen?  The incident I'm referring to is the attack on Boipatong.

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: It was during the day.  The attack on Boipatong happened during the evening and the handing over of the money to Kheswa happened during the day.

MR LOWIES: I see.  Now did you see whether any weapons were handed over to anybody at the hostel?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I did not see who Peens gave firearms or weapons to.

MR LOWIES: Are you sure?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I would not say I am sure.  I only heard, I did not see him.

MR LOWIES: What did you hear?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I heard that Peens gives firearms to Rooikop and Rooikop in turn gives these firearms to Themba Khosa.  So I'm not in the position to say, really.

MR LOWIES: So you didn't see that firearms were actually handed to Themba Khosa?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not see Themba Khosa taking receipt of the firearms.

MR LOWIES: As a matter of fact, on this specific day, the only thing that you observed was the handing over of the money?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I saw Katisi receiving the money.

MR LOWIES: And thereafter Peens left?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: May the question please be repeated?

MR LOWIES: Do you that Peens left the premises thereafter?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes, I did because we were standing together with Katisi at the gate.

MR LOWIES: So if there was a handing over of firearms to Themba Khosa at that stage, you would have seen it?  Is that correct?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: Yes.  Yes, that is something I could have seen.

MR LOWIES: Did you see Themba Khosa at all that day?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I saw Themba Khosa at the meeting two weeks prior to the attack.

MR LOWIES: Mr Nosenga, please, we're wasting time.  My question is simple, did you see him on that day, not any other day?  What is your answer?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: No, I did not see him on that day.

MR LOWIES: So if one gets the impression on that day that the money, that Peens handed guns over to Khosa, that would be wrong, it did not happen on that specific day to your knowledge?

ANDRIES MATANZIMA NOSENGA: I am saying I only heard about that at a meeting at the hostel.