Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-10

MR VISSER: There's one last issue which we wish to place before you.  Chairperson, it does appear to us, with respect, and we may be wrong, that the incidents which we're going to deal with, particularly those we're going to deal with initially, are going to be brief incidents.  It's not going to take up a lot of your time, not with the experience which the Amnesty Committee has gained through the last two years.  What we do foresee as a possibility is that some time might go into the Kubeka incident and the Quarry Road incident and the incident concerning Mr Ndaba and Shabalala.
	Now those matters have been placed towards the end of your roll.  We do foresee a possibility, and I put it no higher than that, that we might find ourselves with time on our hands, finishing rapidly with the brief applications and then perhaps towards the end might be painted into a corner because the longer ones have been placed during the latter part of the hearing before you.  And what we would submit, Chairperson, is that all efforts perhaps be made - what we want to suggest is either one of two alternatives.  Either to move, perhaps everything, forward a week.  If that's not possible, at least to take one of the longer ones and move that forward to a convenient place earlier during the hearing.  But I leave that entirely in your capable hands, Chairperson, and the hands of Ms Thabethe.  
	And with that, unless my attorney feels I should say anything else.  Yes, well if we're going to use the bundles, Chairperson, which I really - I haven't gone through them, but there doesn't seem to be anything in it.  Some of it is already the reproduction of Exhibit A which you have before you and the statements of three of the applicants, which we'll hand to you anyway.  But if Ms Thabethe wants these to be used, then obviously they're going to have to be reproduced again.  I'm not sure whether she can do that by tomorrow morning, but I leave that entirely in her hands.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I trust that you'll sort that out with her.

MR VISSER: Yes.  Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's all I have to say to you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The last suggestion you made about bringing forward on the agenda of this Committee, matters which are heavier and may take a little more time than the shorter applications, appeals to me and I would certainly see to it that some arrangement is made between the Leader of Evidence and yourselves so that we can bring those applications forward.  The only difficulty in the way might be communicating with the dependants and the relatives of the deceased in those matters and giving them adequate time and notice to be here.  But if that is at all possible, we will try and do that.  Thank you.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I just add that as far as we are concerned, after this afternoon hopefully, we will be in a position to continue with any of the applications before you at any particular time.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.  Perhaps you might after we have adjourned, indicate to Ms Thabethe which matters you think should be given priority and the order in which it might be convenient, from out point of view as well, for them to be heard.

MR VISSER: They are the three matters I mentioned to you, Chairperson.  Kubeka, is one incident of a lady who died in Winkelspruit, the other is the Quarry Road incident, that was a car chase and a shoot-out on the highway.  I hope you were sitting safely in Court that day, Chairperson, because apparently it was quite a to-do.

CHAIRPERSON: I see.

MR VISSER: And the other matter is the matter of Ndaba and Shabalala, the two of them being one incident.  That's really the Operation Vula one.  I neglected to add when I addressed you on the additions to Exhibit A, to say to you that under the heading "Natal" we will obviously include as much of the history as believe is relevant to you about Operation Vula as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, I understand, thank you very much.  Mr Nel, just for the purposes of the record, could you mention the names of the clients for whom you appear?

MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Yes, in the Dion Cele matter it is the application of J J Brooks and a Mr A E Verwey.  I might add that I applied, or I drew the application of the late Col A R C Taylor, but you have mentioned that he is since passed away.

CHAIRPERSON: So we will not be taking up much time as far as that is concerned.

MR NEL: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  So you're now going to deal with Brooks and Verwey.

MR NEL: That's correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.  And as I've said earlier, it would be convenient for you if we did begin tomorrow morning?

MR NEL: That would be absolutely convenient, thank you very much, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Nine thirty would a appropriate time?

MR NEL: That is suitable.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.

MR NEL: Thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you heard the suggestion made by Mr Visser that if it is at all possible, to bring onto the agenda, rearrange the agenda in such a way that the matters that he's mentioned, Kubeka, the Quarry Road incident and Ndwandwe and Shabalala.  Will you this afternoon or during the course of today apply your mind to that suggestion and to see whether it is possible for us to deal with those matters at an earlier date than the one suggested at present?

MS THABETHE: Mr Chair, I've already applied my mind and I would like to discuss it with Adv Visser and Mr Wagener, especially considering the fact that it was their suggestion in the first place that we did this roll this way.  But we will work out something, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well do that.  You'll bear in mind the likelihood and the possibility of being able to contact the dependants ...(intervention)

MS THABETHE: The victims, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: ... of the deceased and the victims, so that they can have notice about the dates on which the matter is going to be heard.  And will you make sure that those victims and dependants who are here for today's hearing, will you assist them to make sure that all their consultations take place during the course of the day instead of tomorrow morning?

MS THABETHE: I will do so, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  The Committee will now adjourn and resume at nine thirty tomorrow morning.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS