Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-05-03

MR MBHELE: I don't remember if they cried, but I do remember what we instructed them.  I don't want to make you feel sad, but I can demonstrate to you how they were lying down when I shot them.   This is how they were lying down and then I fired one bullet to each and I left them there.  Mabiza said they should be taken from there, they mustn't be left on the street, and I said, I cannot board the car, because there were three dead bodies in the car, I apologise from the bottom of my heart.  I don't know how I can express myself.

JUDITH JUSTISIA ZUZIWE BOOI: It sounds very sad for me to forgive you because you are the one who are saying you killed them, now you are apologising to me.  I would like to tell you that it is difficult for us to forgive you when we still don't have the arm and the leg which is missing now, and he had children, they are still in school right now.  They are struggling.  They used to have their bread and butter and now they are only having bread.  You don't have mercy at all, or empathy, therefore it is difficult for us to forgive you.  You belong to the Mbhele family, you killed someone who was born from the Mbhele family as well, you are merciless.

MR MBHELE: I have already explained to you why I did this, we were looking for this car and it was so unfortunate that we identified that car as the one that we were looking for.  It was the same car, the same colour and we believed that that car was the car we were looking for.

JUDITH JUSTISIA ZUZIWE BOOI: Now you are telling us that they were looking for a car which was stolen, now it is surprising how come there were no Police who were looking for this car.

MR MBHELE: I am telling you there was a Police and a soldier and there was this other guy whom I don't know, his job.

JUDITH JUSTISIA ZUZIWE BOOI: As far as I know, there was no Police there, they had a soldier's card.

MR MBHELE: This is what I saw, they showed us that they were soldiers, they didn't show us, or they didn't identify them as Police.

JUDITH JUSTISIA ZUZIWE BOOI: And I doubt if they were looking for a stolen car, because is they were looking for a stolen car, Policemen would be doing that job, not soldiers.

MR MBHELE: And the numberplates were three in one car, XM, CB.

CHAIRPERSON: The number plates were not three in one car from the evidence that you gave earlier.  You told us the number plates were CB I think it was.

MR MBHELE: Yes, CB.

CHAIRPERSON: The disc was something different, not the number plate, the disc and that you  later found other number plates.  Are you now saying there were three sets of number plates there, because I must advise you that you must be careful in what you say.

MR MBHELE: I would like to clarify, there were two number plates and one disc.  Two number plates and one disc, the number plate was CB, the back one, or behind the driver's seat, there was a number plate with XM.  I apologise and I am very sorry.

JUDITH JUSTISIA ZUZIWE BOOI: Do you know Zama?

MR MBHELE: Yes, I know him very well.

JUDITH JUSTISIA ZUZIWE BOOI: Yes, I wanted you to tell this Committee you know him very well, you used to come to our family, you used to eat at home, you killed someone you have known very well.

MR MBHELE: Yes, we used to drink together even in a tavern.

JUDITH JUSTISIA ZUZIWE BOOI: You knew Zama and you knew that he wasn't Inkatha member, he was staying in Umtata.  Why did you identify him as Inkatha or KwaZulu Natal person?

MR MBHELE: It was the situation.

JUDITH JUSTISIA ZUZIWE BOOI: Therefore the situation was to be solved by Zama's blood, so that you satisfy Inkatha.  You wanted to satisfy Inkatha by Zama's blood, your aunt's son, you knew his father, his family, his mother, everyone.  You were sure that he was not connected with kwaZulu Natal struggle.  How are we going to forgive you, you are my cousin, how are we going to forgive you?

MR MBHELE: Yes, I know that, but please.

JUDITH JUSTISIA ZUZIWE BOOI: You didn't forgive Zama, if you didn't know him, it is another story, but you knew him, you were sure, you knew that he was from Umtata and he had nothing to do with kwaZulu Natal politics.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stop and allow him to answer what you are saying.  You are just going on and on, giving evidence yourself, you are not giving the applicant a chance to answer.  Did you know Zama?

MR MBHELE: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a relative of yours?

MR MBHELE: My cousin.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you visit his home?

MR MBHELE: Yes, he is my aunt's son.  She is telling the truth when she says that we are related.

CHAIRPERSON: And that he lived in Umtata?

MR MBHELE: He was working in Umtata.  He was working in Umtata, I don't know if he was staying at his home, but he was working there.

CHAIRPERSON: Anymore questions?

JUDITH JUSTISIA ZUZIWE BOOI: No I don't think I will ask any further because he doesn't want to answer me if Zama was crying and asking him not to kill him.  Now he doesn't want to answer this question then I don't think I should go any further asking him - I was going to ask him how he was feeling when he was amputating him.

CHAIRPERSON: Then that will be that.  To clarify one thing, do I understand that you put, or you said in answer to the questions, that you fired one bullet at each of the people when they were lying, as you showed us, lying on their stomachs with their faces down and that this killed them, and that you then left the bodies there?

MR MBHELE: Yes that's how it happened.  I only fired one bullet to each and I left them there.  And Mabiza told me that we shouldn't have left the bodies there on the street, we were supposed to take their bodies and I refused to go along with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you fire for the back of their heads into each of them?

MR MBHELE: Two of them I fired the bullets straight on the heads not at the back.

CHAIRPERSON: On top of the head you indicated.

MR MBHELE: On top of the head.

CHAIRPERSON: And the third one?

MR MBHELE: That one I didn't shoot him, Mbeyeza shot him with the G3.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Chair, can I just follow up one aspect while we are just here.  It may just assist the witness as well.
	If I remember correctly you went and spoke to your commander.  He said, "you can't leave these bodies here, you must removed them".  You then went back to the scene.  You found this person called Kentaike, is that right?

MR MBHELE: Yes that is correct.

MR LAX: They were repairing a vehicle or something like that you said in your statement.

MR MBHELE: Yes they were repairing a vehicle.  I asked them to take those bodies because I refused to come along with them.

MR LAX: In your statement you actually said you forced them to remove those bodies, it's Kentaike and others.

MR MBHELE: Kentaike didn't want to take the bodies.  I forced him to do so.

MR LAX: You said here you forced him to load them on the back seat and then he drove away, correct?

MR MBHELE: That's correct.

MR LAX: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Once again thank you for having come here and if you wish to give evidence you are entitled to do so.
How long would be convenient? It's now after twenty past one, should we say two o'clock?

MS MTANGA: That would be fine I believe.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well we will now adjourn until two o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MS MTANGA: I will now call my next witness, Mr William Moletele Lekata.  He is the next of kin of Mr Lekata, one of the three soldiers.

MR LAX: Good afternoon Mr Lekata can you hear me?

INTERPRETER: He can hear Sir.

MR LAX: What language will you be testifying in?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: Xhosa.

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: (sworn states)

MS MTANGA: Mr Lekata can you confirm that the deceased in this matter, Mr Lekata, was your brother?

WILLIAM MOLETELE LEKATA: That is correct.