Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-13

MR VISSER: I want to go on Mr Coetzee, I gave an undertaking that I'm going to finish in an hour so if I could have your assistance perhaps we could do it.  At page 28 there are "V's" and "C's" in the margin, I think you said that's "vraag" and Coetzee.
	So Coetzee - half way down the page says:
"No, wait a little bit"

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR VISSER: Page 28 Mr ...[indistinct]

DIRK COETZEE: That was put to me yesterday by Mr Booyens, that's correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR VISSER: Volume 3.  No, no, Volume 3.
	Yes, and you must forgive if there's going to be some overlapping because I can't avoid it.
"No, I see him there.  Now I am there together with these people from P.E. security and then they told me this was a person who had come from Lesotho".
I'm going to skip a few lines and then you say:
"It was a Datsun Coupe, 2 door as far as I can remember.  I did not see the motor car at that stage"
My learned friend did indeed ask you.  Would you please remind us - refresh our memories as to what your reply to that was?

DIRK COETZEE: That it couldn't have been proved not to be true, it proved to be a slip of the tongue Mr Chairman ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Oh yes, a slip of the mind yes ...[intervention]

DIRK COETZEE: Right through the evidence that I've given before several forums.

MR VISSER: All right.  Now turn to page 29 please.  I want to direct your attention to - let's start from the bottom the second last sentence I think
"They came with old Colonel Nick"
and that's a reference to Mr van Rensburg ...[intervention]

DIRK COETZEE: On page, sorry?

MR VISSER: 29.

DIRK COETZEE: Paragraph?  You said at the bottom of the page ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: At the bottom, the second last sentence.

DIRK COETZEE: The second last sentence?

MR VISSER: Yes.
"Came with"
Do you see those words"

DIRK COETZEE: The second last sentence says
"Ons sou did reel maar toe Nick daar aankom"
...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Okay, the third last sentence then. I'm not confusing you on purpose Mr Coetzee.

DIRK COETZEE: No, no, it's not in my Volume, the third last sentence reads - oh, it's the fifth last sentence
"Came there together with old Colonel Nick and another person in a car.  This motorcar was taken through the border post with false registration numbers"
Where does that come from?

DIRK COETZEE: From - as discussed in advance with Major Nick van Rensburg and done by the Ermelo security branch Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Have you ever told anybody else - after the Mauritius statement, about these false number plates?

DIRK COETZEE: I can't remember Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: More pertinently, have you told this Committee about this - I mean your Amnesty Committee about that, the false number plates?

DIRK COETZEE: I wasn't asked, I don't think I've mentioned it previously Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: I'm going to suggest to you that in true form you were just embroidering here again Mr Coetzee.

DIRK COETZEE: No, it's not true Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: And you continue on that page to say
"We would arrange that but when Nick"
That's Mr van Rensburg.
"came there he knew all Swaziland's stories, then he took him through'
What does that mean?

DIRK COETZEE: Just exactly what I said relating to the Ermelo guys, he's left it with them for them to be taken through Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Well, perhaps one is in need of a better explanation.  I want to suggest to you that these words in plain Afrikaans means that Mr van Rensburg took the vehicle through the border.

DIRK COETZEE: That's what it means in plain Afrikaans but he obviously didn't do it Mr Chairman, you must look at it in context.

MR VISSER: Why would you suggest if they wanted the motorcar to be discovered, would they fit false number plates to it?

DIRK COETZEE: Because the person taking it through the border will then be registered in the registers as Mr Chris Deetlefs taking the car through the border instead of Sizwe Kondile.

MR VISSER: Mr Coetzee, you told us in Harms Commission that you moved freely through the border posts, isn't that so?

DIRK COETZEE: I was border post commander and I did move freely up and down, that's correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes. And security personnel from Ermelo would have been able to do the same surely?

DIRK COETZEE: Well obviously they knew cars of the ...[indistinct] Ermelo guys so they would have taken it through a different border too Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes, all right.  Yes, I was going to ask you this question but my learned friend has done so, perhaps I should just give the Committee members the references.  The issue of - Mr Coetzee, you seeing the car according to your evidence, in Jeffrey's Bay you will find in Volume 3 at page 53.  At page 86 of Volume 3
" I was told it was the car belonging to a detainee"
And page 93 to which my learned friend this morning has referred - that is the London record Mr Chairman.  In the manuscript at page 98 of Volume 2 - I see I didn't jot down the paragraph number Mr Chairman, perhaps I should do that for you quickly ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: About two thirds of the way down?

MR VISSER: I do apologies, I should have marked the paragraph numbers as well.  And then at page 102 of Volume 2, I want to direct your attention to Mr Coetzee.  Page 102 of Volume 2 in the middle of the page, I put it to you ...[intervention]

DIRK COETZEE: The page number please?

MR VISSER: 102.  I suggest to you that you are now at the point where you're walking with Mr van Rensburg - according to your evidence, in Jeffrey's Bay and this is the appropriate time to refer to the car, would you agree with that?

DIRK COETZEE: The exact point at Jeffrey's bay where we spoke about it was - as far I can recollect, when he opened the garage Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Yes, but I'm talking about page 102 and I'm putting it to you, you didn't mention seeing or knowing anything about that car in this affidavit on the 8th of October 1996.  And all I want to ask you is whether that's another slip of the mind?

DIRK COETZEE: Is it not mentioned at all in this statement?

MR VISSER: I'm putting it to you, if you can find it you're a better man than I am.

DIRK COETZEE: Well then you'll have to give me time to go through it but it will be ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: All right, you can do so later and if you can correct Mr I will stand corrected.  That's at 102 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway, the effect of your question is that there is no mention of him having seen the car at Jeffrey's Bay in that statement?

MR VISSER: Yes.  In that - on the 8th of October 1996 no reference is made to that car.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: And in the evidence Mr Chairman at page 110, line 12 of Volume 2, you'll find his evidence before in the amnesty application.  And page 110 of Volume - it's line 12 at Volume 2.  And Mr Chairman, with that I wish to step off that issue except for one point.
	Today you told us that Jan Raath parked the Audi in a garage after it was stolen and that garage is at the police station in Jeffrey's Bay.

DIRK COETZEE: That's correct Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Well, have you ever told any living soul this piece of evidence before today?

DIRK COETZEE: That the car was parked in the garage?  Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: No Mr Coetzee, please listen - that Jan Raath parked the car there?

DIRK COETZEE: I can't remember Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Ag well, of course you didn't because you just sucked it out of your thumb didn't you?

DIRK COETZEE: Mr Chairman, this business of sucking things out of my thumbs, I haven't got thumbs - I would have had thumbs left anymore, I don't suck it out of my thumb.   I'm talking about things as I can remember it, it's a long time ago and ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Well I just put it to you plainly that this is first time you've ever mentioned anything about Jan Raath parking that car there.