Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-16

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because there are things like, I don't know whether anything will be of any importance coming from a plan, but what one imagines if it's an early learning centre, that there's probably sort of classrooms and there's a hall and that if groups go and meet there, it's not necessarily in one particular place, they might use classrooms or whatever.  It just might be of assistance.

GEORGE BIZOS: ...(indistinct - no microphone) the community, we'll ask him to do a plan and promise to hand it in.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  It needn't be anything too fancy or ...(intervention)

GEORGE BIZOS: Once you do it you might as well do it properly.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but a reasonable impression, I don't want working drawings, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: As much as we would like to go and do an inspection in order to show that nobody is in danger there, I don't think we should take up time.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR WILLIAMS: Mr Chairman, maybe one would also want to know what the adjacent area looks like because they claim that they've observed the place.  And those factors which might become relevant due to certain facts that I myself will place on that record, for that purpose I would suggest that an in loco inspection would be the best.

MR MARTINI: Mr Chairperson, sorry, I think this is a whole ploy and I think Mr Bizos should keep his snide comments to himself and conduct himself in a dignified manner.  This has got nothing to do with the issue.  Unfortunately, let's place this on record now, Mr Commissioner, if certain people are bitter that the venue was changed, that is unfortunate.  A Judge has ruled in favour of my client, so let's stay away from that issue.  The relevance of what it looks like, there is no relevance to it, the fact is a bomb went off, the fact is from all statements before this Commission, is that no-one got hurt save for Mrs Omar who says "I've got a minor cut on the forehead".  So what is the relevance of an inspection in loco of the centre, other than to achieve some point because some people are bitter, we appreciate that, unfortunately people should realise that my client also had rights and his rights were enforced by a Judge of the Supreme Court.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll decide later whether or not we need to have an inspection, but I would appreciate some sort of, at this stage at least, a drawing, a layout ...(intervention)
MR COETZEE(?): Mr Chairman, may I suggest a couple of photographs as a good starting point.  We've got the facilities, they've got a 1 hour lab, we can have it developed, we can have it tomorrow morning.  A couple of good photographs of the vicinity showing the building from a distance could assist the Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, anything that will assist us, give us some idea of what the premises look like.

MR MARTINI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
	Mr van Zyl, after the bomb was detonated were you aware as to whether anybody was injured or killed?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: No, we were not aware of any injuries or any deaths.

MR MARTINI: Mr van Zyl, Mr Verster testified that the object of the CCB unit was "die totale ontwrigting van die vyand", was that put to you when you went on your course or joined the CCB organisation?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so, yes.

MR MARTINI: Now I would like you to look at Exhibit D, which is the Report being handed in, the Report of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.  I would like you to look at paragraph 382 - this has been dealt with, Mr Chairperson, but I'll deal with it directly with my client.  Now I don't want to waste time, if you have a look at paragraph 382, it's referring to Gen Joop Joubert, but just read the last sentence of that paragraph, read with the lettering thereafter.  Let's start at
"The revolutionary ..."

ABRAM VAN ZYL: I've read it, Chairperson.

MR MARTINI: Can I read it for you?
"The revolutionary and covert nature of the plan amongst others things involved
		That ANC leaders and people who substantially contributed to the struggle, would be eliminated.  That ANC facilities and support services would be destroyed.  Activists, sympathises, fighters and people who supported them, would be eliminated."
Now was that conveyed to you as the objective of the CCB?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR MARTINI: And did you accept that?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: Yes, I accepted it.

MR MARTINI: Were you also told at the time that the so-called war had come home, moved into the country, that the country was now in an internal war?

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so, Chairperson.

MR MARTINI: With opponents of the government at the time.

ABRAM VAN ZYL: That is so.

MR MARTINI: Chairperson, are we adjourning at quarter to four?

CHAIRPERSON: No, not necessarily, I think the arrangement has been that Mr Barnard is leaving at quarter to four, the only reason was in respect of Mr Barnard, but he's already left.

MR MARTINI: I just enquired so as to determine what time we'd end because if it was going to end at quarter four, I'd like to use the occasion to just go through certain things with my client just to provide a complete picture.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could go on through to plus-minus 4 o'clock or so, if it's possible.

MR MARTINI: Well Chairperson, I don't have much to ask, save to going through certain things with my client just to make sure we've canvassed certain issues that I wanted to put in-chief, and the only issues left that I'd then deal with, I would like to deal with three issues, but at the end.  So if we could adjourn at quarter to four and tomorrow morning I'm sure if we have nothing else to cover, I'll be short and just end off with certain issues.

CHAIRPERSON: Because tomorrow we are having a short day.

MR MARTINI: 11 o'clock?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we've been requested to adjourn at 11 o'clock and that has been agreed to, it's an important religious holiday and we respect that many people require to leave early, so we'll be adjourning early.

MR MARTINI: Are we starting earlier?

CHAIRPERSON: From my point of view, and I'm sure from Mr Sibanyoni's and Mr Lax', we're available to start at any time, yes.  I'm not sure about it now, but we'll have to communicate in respect of getting Mr Barnard here.  Would eight thirty be a convenient time?

MR COETZEE: Mr Chairman, even if Mr Barnard is not here, I have indicated ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You'll look after his interests.

MR COETZEE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, we appreciate that.

MR COETZEE: So we can start even if he's not here at half past eight.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, then if we could start at eight thirty seeing that we are losing a little bit of time now and we'll be finishing early, it would be better.  Thank you.
	So we'll now adjourn at this stage and reconvene at eight thirty tomorrow morning, same venue.

MR MARTINI: Thank you, Chairperson.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS