Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-03-30

GEORGE BIZOS: Well, did you tell Dr Lang that Mr Biko knocked his head against the wall?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I didn't.  I didn't tell Dr Lang that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was the injury to his lip and the injury on his forehead visible when Dr Lang came there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I believe he would have seen it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he ask you as the person who was guarding the detainee, the injured detainee how did these injuries come about?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: He didn't.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you volunteer, were you concerned about Mr Biko's well-being at that time?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I wasn't.

GEORGE BIZOS: Were you not concerned that an adult appeared to be confused and incoherent and incontinent, was it not a matter of concern to you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, because the Doctor was there and the Officer was there, they were dealing with the situation.   I actually ...

GEORGE BIZOS: Why didn't you tell the Doctor that this person wet his pants, he appears not to be able to control himself?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: He could see it.

GEORGE BIZOS: He is confused, why didn't you tell him he knocked his head against the wall?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: He saw that his trousers were wet, but I didn't tell him that his head had banged against the wall.  I am disciplined - I don't speak out of turn.  Who am I?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what is a stethoscope?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I beg your pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember whether the Doctor had a stethoscope, do you know what it is?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Dr Lang have a stethoscope?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he examine Mr Biko?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, he examined him but I then left the office.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I am talking about the time when you were present.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes, he did.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he ask anybody there what had happened to this man?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he ask why is this man in such a condition or what have you done to him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I don't know.  He left me with Goosen, what the two of them discussed, I really don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Goosen who got promoted after this event, is no longer with us, he has passed away, is that correct?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: He was only promoted much later.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, but he is dead?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, were you present when Dr Lang gave a piece of paper to Mr Goosen to the effect that there was nothing wrong with Mr Biko?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I know nothing about that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you know that Dr Lang gave Mr Goosen a piece of paper which said that there was nothing wrong with Mr Biko?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: When did it come to your notice that such a note had been extracted from Dr Lang?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: During the inquest.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you try to find out why Dr Lang gave a false certificate to Mr Goosen, when to your knowledge, there was plenty wrong with Biko?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No, I didn't.

GEORGE BIZOS: When did you for the first time learn that it was given out and pretended that there was nothing wrong with Biko, but that he was not ill or injured, but that he was feigning illness or disability, when did you learn that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: During the inquest.

GEORGE BIZOS: You must have learnt long before that, because your minister, Mr Kruger had made that publicly known.  Firstly that there was nothing wrong with him, he was on a hunger strike and alternatively he was feigning illness.  Didn't you hear your Minister say that on a matter on which you were so vitally involved?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, where did your Minister get the information that Mr Biko was feigning illness, that there was nothing wrong with him, or that he was on a hunger strike?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Probably from the Commanding Officer of the Security Branch.

GEORGE BIZOS: Or probably he got the information from you, because Mr Goosen was not there in the room to see what had happened?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: He didn't hear it from me.  I had no channel of communication to the Minister.  I was only a Sergeant, it is ridiculous.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, but I am talking about Mr Goosen.  Mr Goosen wasn't in the room, he must have got the information from you and your colleagues in order to pass it on to his Minister, to your Minister and his Minister?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: As I have said in my evidence in chief, Mr Snyman went to Goosen.  Siebert spoke to him, they were senior officers.  He also came to visit him himself, that is Goosen.
	I also went to Goosen and told him what Mr Biko's condition was, how his condition was that afternoon.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you tell Mr Goosen that you had beaten up Mr Biko with a hosepipe?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I don't think I mentioned it to him.  But I could have done so, I am not sure.  I have no recollection of doing that.

CHAIRPERSON: If you had mentioned it to him, when would you have done so?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It could have been on the Saturday, if I had done so, but I don't think I did.  It would have been the Saturday when we were all together.

CHAIRPERSON: So you discussed the whole matter?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't you discuss on the Saturday morning you know tram lines imposed with a hosepipe on the back of a person's body, are visible when he is dead to the District Surgeon who does the post-mortem examination, didn't you discuss that on Saturday morning?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: It is possible, but I have no independent recollection of that.

GEORGE BIZOS: How come, how come or perhaps I should ask you another question first before I put this one.  Do you feel or believe that you personally contributed to Mr Biko's death?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: I believe that by not giving him the necessary medical care immediately, I suppose that contributed to it.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is that all that you feel any responsibility for?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.  I think that if he had been given immediate medical attention, then Mr Biko might have been alive today.

CHAIRPERSON: If you were sufficiently ranked, you would have obtained that medical assistance for him?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: If I was in charge at that stage, I think I would have done that.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to understand your evidence correctly that the only reason you never obtained this assistance for him, was because you were so lowly ranked and you didn't think it your place to dictate to your superiors?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: That is correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is that the only contribution that you think that you might have made to Mr Biko's death?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Nothing else?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: You never felt that the half a dozen or so blows with your hosepipe had anything to do with contributing to Mr Biko's death?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: No.  If I recall the inquest report by Dr Laubscher or the post-mortem report by Dr Laubscher, there were not there many blows from the hosepipe.  I may be wrong, but those blows would not have caused any damage.  That is according to my opinion.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, we will accept that for the purposes of my next question.
	Did you see anybody throwing punches in the room in which Mr Biko was being interrogated?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEWOUDT: Mr Chairman, yes.  Blows were aimed backwards and forwards and that is why I at that stage took the initiative of hitting him with the hosepipe, to distract him.
	Yes, there were.  Whether the blows actually found their target I don't know.  It is like in a rugby scrum.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, without a referee.  Did you see Mr Siebert throwing punches?