Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-11-13

MR MALAN: No, I understand that when you talk about priorities, I understand that, but you did not only speak about the stopping of all of this, but you also said that you had to take it away completely.  I presume it was now a high profile, but somewhere along the line, it was going to come forward again about other people in the unit would keep on doing these acts of terror?

MR BOTHA: Maybe I've got to explain it to you like this, it was not only about the trained terrorist who infiltrated the country.  There was a whole network of people who gave them assistance, with giving them places to stay.  A person would go and collect his arms.
	There was an established structure and these structures, we had to create information networks on all levels to obtain the information.  To such an extent that on the other side of the fence in Swaziland, we actually observed when arms were handed over to us, that means people under our command, people who we directly or indirectly commanded and in such a way, we could manipulate the situation in order to prevent violence.

CHAIRPERSON: On the same sort of line, as I understand your evidence, you said you were not given orders to kill people, that you couldn't be given orders to commit illegal acts.  Yet, you told us that you killed, or took steps to have several people, killed.  How did you come to do this?

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, I think it is a process of conditioning, everybody who was part of the Security Branch in Natal, and specifically if you were exposed in the unit that I belonged to, and you felt powerless at the end of the day and the pressure was on you as a police person, and you had to solve the problem.
	To go over to the first decision, it is not easy.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand the position that you were obliged as policemen to do this, that this was the only way you could stop this terrorism?

MR BOTHA: Not that it was an accepted practice within the police Chairperson, but in my opinion, I believed this, that this was the only way in which I can make a contribution in order to achieve our goal.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't say it was accepted practice in the Police Force?

MR BOTHA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: It was not an accepted practice in the Police Force?

MR BOTHA: It was not an accepted practice in the broader Police Force.

MR MALAN: If you talk about the conditioning, you were here and you heard the evidence of Mr Wasserman with regards to his application in the Bhila murder?

MR BOTHA: Yes, I was here.

MR MALAN: You also heard that he said that at a very late stage, he formed the suspicion that it was going a bit further than the interrogation.  Can you remember how he said that he did not suspect the murder was to happen, only with the taking the person away and the driving away and when they got out of the car, did he realise that Bhila was going to be killed?

MR VISSER: Sorry Mr Chairman, that was Bosch not Wasserman.

MR MALAN: Sorry,  I mean Bosch.  Chairman, in Afrikaans we say Bosch and I no longer have that questions, thank you for assisting me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yesterday I told you that we would take the adjournment at half past eleven, I am just trying to find out if arrangements had been made and whether we are expected to, otherwise we can go on a little longer.

MR VISSER: If I may be so bold as to suggest Mr Chairman, that it might be better to take it at twelve o'clock, if we are going to sit until two o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: That depends what arrangements have been made Mr Visser.  We can go on a bit longer.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Thank you Mr Chairperson, Van Schalkwyk.  Mr Botha, as you know my function here is a bit limited to the Bhila limited, but in as far as Mr Mhieza is concerned and the fact that he received notices from the Commission, not this specific Committee, but a notice around Poshua Ndwandwe and also the Pumeso Nxiweni incident.
	I only want to ask you a few questions about those incidents in as far as it concerns Bhila, Poshua Ndwandwe and Pumeso Nxiweni, to understand your evidence correctly that Mr Mhieza was not involved in these incidents at all.

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: If I then can go on to the Bhila incident, did I understand your evidence correctly that you in as far as it concerned the Ramlakan case, you worked closely together with the Investigating Officer, Mr Taylor?

MR BOTHA: Yes, I did.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And was it also the case in as far as it is relevant to the Ramlakan case in the Bhila incident, that you were also very closely involved with the Amanzimtoti bomb explosion case?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And Mr Botha, you must excuse me, I do not know whether it was said, in as far as it would be important about how you saw the situation in Natal, was it the case that you formed part of the investigation into the bomb explosion and on the scene of the crime itself?

MR BOTHA: Yes.  I was the explosives expert on that scene of the crime in Amanzimtoti.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And with regards to that, you had to investigate the scene of the crime immediately after it happened?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And this specific incident, we are talking about Amanzimtoti, did it have a high profile within your unit?

MR BOTHA: Yes, it did because firstly it was an act of terror which took place during Christmas time, two days before Christmas.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: In general, this incident, did it enjoy a high profile in the Security Branch, and I am talking countrywide?

MR BOTHA: In the Security Branch itself, yes.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: You were also asked by my learned colleague which led your evidence, and also by the Committee, with regards to information which you had concerning the situation of Bhila and this was information which became apparent in the court case, was there information except for the let's say, the witnesses you had available, things you could not submit in court?

MR BOTHA: Yes, there was.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: And in the investigation against Nxiweni and Bhila, were statements taken from them with regards to Section 29 on Internal Security?

MR BOTHA: Yes.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: In those statements which were taken down, was a lot of information made known to you?

MR BOTHA: Yes, it was his version of his activities in terms of the act against terrorism.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: When we talk about Mr Bhila and also Mr Nxiweni and as far as this is important and relevant, some of this information, was it possible that you couldn't use some of that information, from a policeman's point of view?

MR BOTHA: Yes.  In those statements there was information and there was evidence.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Except for the statements, the Section 29 statements of Mr Bhila and Mr Nxiweni, did you also have statements taken from the person you refer to as Qate?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR VAN SCHALKWYK: Can you just tell the Committee, because it might be relevant later, what is the MK name of Mr Qate?

MR BOTHA: He functioned under several different names, one of the names which he was generally known by was Mr X, and Harold.