Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-03-14

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I think at that stage it was Col van Heerden, but then for about 3 years I had not gone to the Headquarters.  I accept that it is Col van Heerden.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now in terms of the procedures, because you were in the Special Forces yourself, would he have parted company with a landmine, without knowing what it was going to be used for?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Yes, if it came from the Co-ordinator. Because there was a specific connection, he would then have made it available for a project and on that basis it was then asked for by the Co-ordinator, but the Co-ordinator would not say that I am going to go and do this exactly, or that and in this case I do not know if the Co-ordinator directly spoke to him, this you would have to ask him yourself.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Bizos.  Was there any particular reason why the operation required a remote control limpet mine, rather than the usual limpet mine that works on this lead plate?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: As I see it Mr Chairperson it would be a controlled explosion so that lives would not be lost.

GEORGE BIZOS: The additional reason why it was to go off by remote control was because there was another gangster involved in this operation.  Not so?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: On ground level I did not have access to them.  I do know that there had been gang members that were involved.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you know that it was on the information of this gang member that the premises were abused and that the reason for the remote control was that he was going to place the bomb in the building and that originally for his benefit, he had to set it off by remote control, but that your men didn't have confidence in him so they broke the rules of your organisation and they went there themselves, in order to work the mechanism, if the need arose.  Did anybody tell you that?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I am aware of it, but it is still a controlled explosion.  Excused me, a controlled explosion.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ask when you approved this operation, who was going to place the bomb and who was going to press the button?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is part of the plan that was presented to me.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was the identity of the person that was going to do it disclosed to you?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No.  As I can remember now it might have been that the person responsible in this case, it was Slang van Zyl and later on he also involved Kalla Botha and that they would then work as a team and the people that they contacted on ground level and used on ground level was only done in presentations.  To me - but whether it happened like that, I cannot say, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: And that it was a member of the community that was really going to assist your men - are you again interrupting me?  I haven't finished my question.  Was it said to you that a member of the community was going to place the bomb?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I cannot remember the details of this, it was not one of my projects.

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon?

MR LAX: He said:  "I can't remember the details."

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  Oh I see.  Well did you expect one of your own men to go in and place the bomb in the building?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That is possible.  It depends on the circumstances.  It is possible that he could have had the remote control device with him and that someone else would have placed the equipment there and if it was safe, then I assume that it could have been one of those steps.  The exact detail I can't remember now.

GEORGE BIZOS: No you see, I thought that it was a rule that you should not get involved in anything which may enable people to identify you or connect the CCB, through it the Government with any act.  Wasn't it part of the plan that a member of the community was going to do the placing?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I cannot remember the detail anymore, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well let us assume that that was so and let us assume that Mr van Zyl or others tell us that that was part of the plan and you must have read it.  If it was there, would you not have wanted to know why is this person prepared to place a bomb in a nursery school?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: No, Mr Chairperson, his motives would have been obscure to me.  It could have been that he - I was aware that he had already co-operated with Mr van Zyl, that he had been part of his team maybe, that he himself maybe had some political convictions and the exact reason I do not know.

GEORGE BIZOS: Was it political conviction or money that ...?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I do not know what his reasons were.

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't you have to authorise money for him?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I had a budget.  I authorised the budget and it also included more than just payment, it included petrol money, money for food, etc.

CHAIRPERSON: Did that budget include payment for the civilian person, the person who was going to place the bomb?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: It would have had to, Chairperson.  The total budget would have covered all facets of expenditure.

CHAIRPERSON: What sort of money would a person like that expect, or what would you expect to pay a person for placing a bomb or a limpet mine?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I cannot tell you with surety Chairperson, it was as a rule, the attitude would have been to connect it or bring it in relation with what actually happened.  It could for example have been something that had been negotiated between the handler and what the person on ground level felt that he needed and if it was excessive, then they could have argued about the price and if he didn't ask that much, then it would have been given.

GEORGE BIZOS: Sorry.  If you've finished?

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

GEORGE BIZOS: Because we know that he was to get R18 000 for putting the bomb in a nursery school.  Don't you remember that?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I remember that a large amount of money had been given, but that is what had been negotiated between the two people.  The reason for the exact amount is, at the end of the day, only the reasonableness of that amount is considered.

GEORGE BIZOS: On an hourly basis, what sort of remuneration is that?  Per hour, how long would it take to put a bomb into the nursery school?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: I do not know, you will have to ask that of the operators on ground level.  It is for them to answer that, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: But wasn't it your task to judge the reasonableness of it?  How long would it take a person and how much would he be paid per minute, if he got R18 000 for dumping a bomb in a nursery school?  He must be paid the sort of Bill Gates figures on the time spent.

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: That was the operator on ground level's decision and also his regional manager.  They could then negotiation amongst each other.  I only had to finally consider it and approve it, Mr Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Wouldn't it have made you suspicious if a person wanted R18 000, that this was not political conviction?  That this was greed and greedy people who are prepared to put instruments of death, are not very reliable or honest people, are they?

PIETER JOHANN VERSTER: Mr Chairperson, exactly because of greed or to determine greed, I took the initiative to put a financial plan there, but the exact motivation of every person and exactly, precisely what is correct, was left over to the operator on ground level.

GEORGE BIZOS: Didn't you question your operator?  "But what is this?  Who is this person who wants so large a sum of money for so little effort?"