Amnesty Hearings — Pinetown — 2000-02-14

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I was informed by Lindane Mtiane, that somebody wished to see me.  That was a mistake, I was told by Stanley, a councillor from Umkababa, that there were people who wished to see me.  I was given a telephone number to contact them, which I did and that was how we got into contact.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the statement taken here in Pinetown?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I do not know because Mr Madlala just made me sign, he came with the statement and asked me to sign.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did he come to with the statement?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: At Umkababa.

CHAIRPERSON: And is he a Captain in the Police Force?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I do not know, but he is one person who used to come to my house to inform me of when my hearing would be heard.

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, perhaps I can assist in this regard.  Actually, Mr Madlala, that is Robson Madlala, is the TRC Investigator, he's a policeman seconded to the TRC as an Investigator, based here in Pinetown at the TRC offices.  Thank you, Chairperson.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Right.  There's something I didn't follow now, you said he came with the statement, brought it to you and asked you to sign it, so you didn't give him the information in the statement?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: When he came to my house he asked me several questions to which I responded and he would be writing my responses down, but I do not know what he put in the statement when he wrote it out.

MR PANDAY: Sorry, Mr Chairman, if I may proceed.
	Mr Ngubane, how is it that everything thusfar from paragraph 1 to 8 is correct and you've had no problem with it, but the most important point or part of the statement seems to vary?  Now Mr Madlala, when he first asked you the questions you mentioned that you understood what he was asking you, you only seem to dispute that you don't know what he wrote down.  Now you've brought this up now, only upon me bringing to your notice that there seems to be a contradiction in as to who had the knife.  Now is it Mr Madlala didn't make a mistake with everything else, but just the part as to who had the knife?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: As I have already explained, whatever I told him was oral, I did not write anything down, he is the person who wrote the statement.  So I cannot know what he wrote and what he did not write, that the part with regards to the knife is not correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it correct that you fell down?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You haven't told anyone that before, have you?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Yes, I did tell someone.

CHAIRPERSON: You see you gave evidence, do you remember, at the Magistrate's Court on January 1992?  Page 24.  And on the next page, page 25 you say
"The deceased and others chased us.  We then chased the deceased and caught him.  We stabbed him.  I also stabbed him with his knife."
You said nothing there about falling down, about struggling.  Why not?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: Well I did not mention it there, but what actually happened was that the deceased chased me, caught up with me, I fell onto the ground and he stabbed me twice.  I then tried to fight him.  I managed to overpower him when my comrade arrived and came to my assistance, at which point I also removed his knife and stabbed him with it.

CHAIRPERSON: You see you made another statement on the 17th of January 1992, apparently in the Umkomaas police station and at page 20 you said in that statement
"Whilst we were there we were approached by five bantu males who started shooting at us.  We then ran away.  When I looked back I noticed that the others had stopped chasing us, with the exception of the deceased, who is well-known to me as Mbukazi.  We then turned back and gave chase to him.  We caught up with him.  We then attacked him."
... and your statement terminates there.  Here again you make no mention of you running away and falling down, you talk here of chasing the deceased and catching up with him.  Which is just what you told the Magistrate in Court.  Can you explain how we now have a completely different version?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I cannot explain that, but what I do know is what I've just told this Committee, that the deceased with other men chased us and they were shooting at us and when we ran away I fell and the deceased caught up with me.  At that point Izak Msomi tried to come to my assistance and that was when I got the opportunity to overpower him and remove the knife from him, and that is how I came to stab him.  It was not my intention to kill him but he was attacking me because he was a member of the IFP attacking an ANC member.  That is what I know.

CHAIRPERSON: So you can give no explanation as to how you gave a different version in January 1992, a matter of a few days after the event.

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: When I made the statement with the police I was being assaulted.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you gave evidence to the Magistrate in the Court, were you being assaulted there?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So why was it different?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I had assumed that I had told the Magistrate that the deceased chased us.  If it is not in the statement it means I omitted it by mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: You told the Magistrate
"The deceased and others chased us.  We then chased the deceased and caught him.  We stabbed him.  I also stabbed him with his knife."

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I did use his knife to stab him because I had no weapon in my possession.

CHAIRPERSON: But you said you chased him and caught him.  Please don't try to ignore that.  Your statement a day or two afterwards to the Magistrate in open Court was
"We then chased the deceased and caught him."

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: What I can say is that maybe the Court made a mistake.  What I know is that they chased us.  And even when the others stopped the deceased continued chasing us until he came up upon me when I fell and stabbed me and at that point Izak Msomi cam to my assistance because at that time I was bleeding.  Izak grabbed him and I managed to take his knife and stab him.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Where did he stab you?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: There.

CHAIRPERSON: On the left side just under the armpit.  Left side of his chest.

MR DEHAL: Sorry, Judge, on the left side of the back of his person there seems to be a two inch incision stitched as well and on the left thumb there's an incision or cut right across the fore of the thumb.  Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you treated?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I went to see a doctor.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: It was at Umkomaas.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that before your arrest?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: That's correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Your statement says
"We stabbed him.  I also stabbed him."
Who else stabbed the deceased?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I stabbed him whilst Izak Msomi grabbed him.

MR SIBANYONI: Why did you say to the Magistrate
"We stabbed him.  I also stabbed him"
... as if there was a person who also participated in the stabbing?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I said so because there was another person who assisted me whilst I stabbed him.

CHAIRPERSON: I'd like to correct something.  When I put to you what was said to the Magistrate's Court, the portion you said was in fact recorded on the 22nd of January, not the 3rd.  The proceedings commenced on the 3rd, but you spoke on the 22nd of January.

MR PANDAY: Mr Ngubane, which day did you go to the doctors?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: I cannot recall the date because this happened a long time ago, because one has a lot on his mind.

MR PANDAY: Okay, do you recall the day you were arrested?

GEBU FANYANA NGUBANE: No, I do not recall the date.

MR PANDAY: If I had to put to you that on the 3rd of January 1992 you were arrested, would that be correct?  That's on the charge sheet, Mr Chairman, on page 22.

CHAIRPERSON: It says the date of the arrest was the 16th.  16th of January.