Human Rights Violation Hearings — Uitenhage — 1996-08-26

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Denzil Potgieter.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
 Mr Nqandu, perhaps I can just get one or two items of information from you. I just want to know Mr Nqandu, how old was your son when he died?

MSOKOLI NQANDU: He was approximately 16 years old.

MR POTGIETER: Now, the police tried to get you to make a case and you explained to us what your attitude was, but were you ever called to Court in connection with the death of your son. There is a procedure that we call an inquest. Do you know anything about that perhaps?

MSOKOLI NQANDU: Yes, they had called me and I said I am not going to Court because I didn't shoot my child.

MR POTGIETER: To which court did they call you, where did they want you to come to?

MSOKOLI NQANDU: The one here close by.

MR POTGIETER: Here in Uitenhage?

MSOKOLI NQANDU: Yes.

MR POTGIETER: Was it soon after the incident when your son was killed. Can you perhaps still remember roughly when you were called to come to court?

MSOKOLI NQANDU: I was called on a Tuesday of the following week. I can't remember what the date was.

MR POTGIETER: Did you hear afterwards what happened to the case, whether anybody was held liable for the death of your son, for example?

MSOKOLI NQANDU: No, I did not hear anything.

MR POTGIETER: Would you like us to follow that up and find out what happened to that particular case?

MSOKOLI NQANDU: I would appreciate that.

MR POTGIETER: Then, just one other issue. The police were stopping you from seeing your son at the hospital, when your son was still alive. What was the attitude of the hospital, the doctors there, were they just allowing the police to prevent people from seeing their family - what was their attitude?

MSOKOLI NQANDU: There weren't any police where he was, I mean there were no doctors, there were only policemen where he was.

MR POTGIETER: Did you raise this with anybody from the hospital, any of the officials from the hospital to try and see your son, or did you just accept when the police refused?

MSOKOLI NQANDU: The policemen did not even want us to speak to anybody there, they did not allow us at all.

MR POTGIETER: How did you feel about that, look, your son was still alive at that stage when you tried to see him and the next time you were told that he was dead?

MSOKOLI NQANDU: It was very painful for me, up to this day, I still mourn for him because he could possibly have been helping me today.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you very much.

MSOKOLI NQANDU: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Pumla Gobodo.

UNKNOWN: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Salje, I am going to put a question to you, because you are the one that saw this truck and where it came from. I would like some clarity on exactly where these people came from. I would like to ask you Sir, since you saw this truck stopping, loading policemen, are these policemen from the Municipality or were they policemen wearing the common uniform. These are the government policemen wearing blue clothes. Since you say they were at the shooting range where they learnt to shoot, was this a training range for policemen or soldiers?

HENRY SALJE: I would not be able to differentiate, I would just say that it was their shooting range, although I don't know if it was for soldiers or policemen, I just know that it was their shooting range.

UNKNOWN: You say it was on your way out as you go to Despatch?

HENRY SALJE: Yes, it is near the road to Kleinskool and Despatch. It is the camp in the middle there.

UNKNOWN: When the other man spoke, he mentioned that it was on the 18th of this day. How come you can remember it so well. Why is it that you can remember this day so well.

HENRY SALJE: The reason that I can remember this day is because it was on a Thursday.

UNKNOWN: Is that why you still remember it so clearly? Did you pay any attention to the registration of the vehicle?

HENRY SALJE: No, I did not pay any attention to the registration number, but I saw that it was painted blue.

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Yolisa Maya.

MS MAYA: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Nqandu, I would like to put one question to you. In the statements before us, in your statement particularly, you say that this incident took place on the 18th of January 1986, but the others say that it happened on the 18th April 1985. I would just like to know from you if this is a mistake by the person that took down the statement or did these things happen at two different dates?

MSOKOLI NQANDU: No, it was my mistake because I said that I remember that it was the 18th, but I wasn't sure about which month it was.

MS MAYA: Thank you very much Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nqandu, in your statement, on the first page of your statement, you say that at this time there was unrest and conflict between the police and the members of the community. At the time of this incident, there was conflict between the community and the police, could you please just elaborate on that conflict?

MSOKOLI NQANDU: I should say that there was conflict, because things were bad, that is why I put it as there having being conflict.

CHAIRPERSON: It is very important for us as the Commission to be able to understand this very clearly. We have established that in the community four people died.

MSOKOLI NQANDU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How many policemen died?

MSOKOLI NQANDU: I never heard of any policemen passing away.

CHAIRPERSON: How many of them were injured in this conflict?

MSOKOLI NQANDU: None.

CHAIRPERSON: Could we then call it conflict, could we call that conflict.

MSOKOLI NQANDU: Sir, that is why I said that I wasn't sure whether I was using the correct word, but things were bad. Things were very tense at the time. That is why I referred to it as conflict.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Sir. My second question is - it is very important for me to put this question to you because when we investigate this matter, it has to be clear that these people went there to go and attack these students and lure them to this truck and after luring them to the truck, they would shoot them - who was fighting between students and them, so  if you statement speaks about conflict, it sketches a picture of fighting between the two sides, but now that you have put it that way, it seems as though the students were lured to this truck and the police then just appeared from underneath these branches and shot at them. I would just like clarity on the second issue. I am first going to put it in English.
 You say, the youth would vandalise white people's property and sometimes loot them. On this day, did these students do anything that caused damage to the property of the white people, when they came from school, on the way to where they were injured?

MSOKOLI NQANDU: The children were in the school yard. They were coming out of the school yard on their way home. I don't know of anything else that they had done.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they burn anything on their way from school to where they were injured?

MSOKOLI NQANDU: No, nothing had been burnt.

CHAIRPERSON: So, these students were coming from school when they met up with the police who shot at them and there was no conflict between them, there was nothing that had been burnt and there was nothing that had been damaged. Do I understand you correctly in that sense?

MSOKOLI NQANDU: Yes, that is it. I really don't know of them having burnt anything, because the children came from school. As I said previously, I had come from work and I did not know of anything that the children had done.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Maya has suggested that I put this question to Mr Peter.

MS MAYA: Lulamile Peter, you are going to tell us, because it is very important for the sake of clarity to put this question to you. We would like to know firstly, as Commission, if, what time you came from school when this incident occurred?