Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — 1998-06-23

MR BRACHER: But you see, you were told to bring latecomers to Koesterfontein and as soon as they get there, they're taken away somewhere else and there's a small group of bombers left.  Now did that not occur to you as strange?

J H VLOK: Repeat the question please?

MR BRACHER: Let me divide it up.  Your instruction was to take the latecomers to Koesterfontein.  Two of those we know were the two Bothas but the latecomers aren't kept on Koesterfontein and they're immediately taken somewhere else leaving five bombers on Koesterfontein, is that correct?

J H VLOK: Yes Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: There's no general AWB gathering on Koesterfontein?

J H VLOK: No, Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Didn't it strike you as strange that you were doing this away from the general gathering of the AWB soldiers coming to fight this war?

J H VLOK: Please repeat?

MR BRACHER: Did it strike you as strange that this was done secretly on Koesterfontein away from the general body of AWB members?

J H VLOK: No, Chairperson, because I accepted and I assumed that they knew what they were doing because I was not there when the decisions were taken about where this would be done.

MR BRACHER: Mr Vlok, is it fair to summarise what you say -you didn't think about anything, you just simply took orders from anybody at all - even people of equal rank?

J H VLOK: Please repeat?

MR BRACHER: I said is it fair to summarise your evidence that you didn't think about any decisions, you simply took orders even from people of equal rank?

J H VLOK: Chairperson, I received my instructions from them, I took it from them because they were placed in control of the operation and that's why I took my orders from them.

MR BRACHER: I'll leave that to argument.  The last sentence of paragraph 28 "after the bomb was placed in the trailer we placed loose iron on top of this bomb for maximum effect - injury and damage".  Did you know you were going to bomb innocent civilians?

J H VLOK: Chairperson, I did not build it, I only assisted where it was necessary.

MR BRACHER: Mr Vlok, take it from me that putting loose pieces of metal on top of a bomb is building a bomb.

J H VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: When you were building the bomb for maximum damage, injury and death, did you know you were going to target innocent civilians?

J H VLOK: Chairperson, that was my instruction and I executed it.

MR BRACHER: Did you know you were going to target innocent civilians when you put the "los yster" on the bomb?

J H VLOK: Yes Chairperson because Barnard informed me.

MR BRACHER: That you were going to target innocent civilians in Germiston - that had already been decided, is that what you're saying?

J H VLOK: They already took the decision that Germiston would be the target and he explained it to me as such and he gave me the instruction that I would go with Jan de Wet.

CHAIRPERSON: When did he do this, after the bomb or before the bomb or whilst you were building the bomb?

J H VLOK: Whilst we were building the bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ask him about the use of the bomb which you were busy building?

J H VLOK: No, Chairperson, he only told me that would be the case and I obeyed the instructions and I did not in any sense doubt them, doubt the fact that they were in control of this operation, that they knew what they were busy doing.  I do not know what the effect would have been of the bomb because I did not know bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vlok, I must be honest and you must correct me if I am wrong, maybe I misunderstood you earlier - I definitely got the impression that you were informed that the target would entail the loss of life.  It's when you discussed where the bomb would be planted, not whilst you were making the bomb, but if I'm wrong, if I misunderstand you, please tell me but I thought you testified to that extent earlier.

J H VLOK: Please repeat it again, Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Earlier, I understood your evidence to be that you found out that the target of the bomb which was already built would include or entail the loss of life.

J H VLOK: Yes, that was discussed at Koesterfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, as I understand your evidence, your earlier evidence, this was only discussed when you decided where to plant the bomb, not whilst you were making the bomb, but I concede I might be wrong.  Please tell me - did you testify to that extent earlier or not?

J H VLOK: I did testify to that extent but what I meant was that whilst we were at Koesterfontein and at Ventersdorp itself and I received instructions, I knew that the bombs which were going to explode would possibly include the loss of life and when we got to Koesterfontein, Cliff gave me the instruction and told me to assist Koekemoer ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vlok, I'm not talking about that - I'm talking about the time you were informed.

J H VLOK: What time are you talking about, are you talking about the Trimpark?

CHAIRPERSON: That's what I want to know from you - I'm talking about the time when you were informed that loss of life is a necessity.

J H VLOK: That happened at Koesterfontein, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Not later when you discussed about where you'd plant the bomb?

J H VLOK: No, the decision about where the bomb would be exploded was made beforehand.  I was only instructed that it should happen in Germiston, Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Mr Vlok, you haven't quite answered my question yet.  I know you knew it was going to Germiston - I want to know if you knew it was going to target innocent civilians when you were that Sunday afternoon on Koesterfontein because you can go to Germiston, you can bomb an empty police station, you bomb a government building, you can bomb an electric pylon, you can bomb a voting booth with nobody in it.  So Germiston's not good enough, did you know it was targeted for innocent civilians in Germiston when you were building it on the Sunday afternoon?

J H VLOK: Chairperson, the planning was done beforehand that the bomb would go off in Germiston and I executed my instruction as I received it, I did not have a choice about where the bomb would explode.

MR BRACHER: ...[inaudible] choice, I'm only asking if you knew on the Sunday afternoon it was going to target innocent civilians?  It's yes or no, it's not a difficult question.

J H VLOK: Yes, Chairperson, the Sunday evening of course.

MR BRACHER: ...[inaudible]

J H VLOK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR BRACHER: Now, this is the very thing that you hated about the ANC that they targeted innocent civilians, you had the whole night to think about it, did you try and get in touch with any General or other leader of the AWB to find out about this change of plan?  Change of policy?

J H VLOK: No, Chairperson, I did not contact any other Generals because I executed my instruction and I knew that these people were in charge of that operation because they had the ability to accomplish that.

MR BRACHER: Now I'm coming to your next act, you're now in Germiston and you're about ...[inaudible]

MR MALAN: Excuse me, Mr Brasher, I just want to pursue this just to understand his mind set at the time.
	Mr Vlok you testified that part of the things that motivated you to act the way you did and to become involved was the fact that the ANC as you understood it killed innocent people, that's to say the farmers, is that correct?

J H VLOK: Yes Chairperson.

MR MALAN: And you also testified and Mr Brasher put it to you, that you hated it - you absolutely hated the fact that they did that, that they killed people.

J H VLOK: No, I didn't hate it, my view was that I was there to stop the elections as we were told at previous meetings.