Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1996-05-13

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Phelane will when he gives evidence testify that he was considered to be a leadership figure, and it was for that reason that he was placed in a single cell, and he was not allowed at any time to have any kind of contact with any of the other persons who were arrested with him.

N JACK MENERA: I mean to answer shortly.  May I answer? what is said by Mr Phelane, it is true because he had been placed in a single cell. I still repeat this answer.  We were meeting with him during break time as we would meet, though we sleep in different cells but during the exercise time we would meet. That was the position, it was only myself but we were not only the two of us who were arrested but many comrades who were arrested who knew him, who knew his cell.  I have many comrades right inside this sitting who'd testify how I knew Mr Phelane.  How did we meet in a single cell?  He will answer that we used to meet him during the exercise time.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr Phelane will deny that after six months of imprisonment only was he released.  In other words this was long after the three months mentioned earlier.

N JACK MENERA: I would answer you this way.  It is a lie, that is a blue lie that he would be saying, if he's going to say that way. because Morgan Phelane left me in prison.  I stayed in prison for three months, that is June, July and August.  All the comrades who belonged to Brandfort youth, we were released in August.  We found Morgan Phelane outside, he must not come here and tell that he was detained for six months because that is a blue lie.

MR VAN DER MERWE: During the time in which you were in detention, and Mr Phelane was also in prison with you, is it correct that his deceased wife Susan regularly sent food and money, not sent, but brought food and money for all those in prison.  From her people she brought this to those in prison. Is that true?

N JACK MENERA: Let me answer this way.  I want to ask a question, I want to understand your question correctly. I said to you were more that 100 comrades who were detained.  Then you're saying Susan Phelane was bringing food and money to all the prisoners. I want you to be specific on that question. That money and food, where they directed to? I want to when I answer you, I've got to understand your question correctly.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Just to summarise, she was merely a courier then who on behalf of the people of Brandfort, on a regular basis then took food and money and other consumable items on the instruction of the people of Brandfort.  Is that correct?

N JACK MENERA: I want to answer in this way.  As Jack Menera and together with my co-detainees from Brandfort, I don't remember one of them who said, Susan Phelane has come today and brought a bag of tobacco.  I don't talk about money or food, that is a lie, there is nothing like that. To my knowledge, that time during the state of emergency, there was no food allowed from outside.  Only money was allowed to come in and we would use that money to buy food on our own.  What Mr Phelane's saying is a lie.

MR VAN DER MERWE: During your evidence you referred, and if I can just point it out.  Perhaps I'm not using the right words, you can point this out to me, that the son of Mr Phelane was arrested along with other people in a house where there was dynamite. Is that correct?

N JACK MENERA: I don't want to think of your question and answer a different way.  I hear you but I don't understand you, can you try to clarify your question so that I should answer you correctly?

JUDGE WILSON: Do you know that Mr Phelane's son was arrested in a house where dynamite was found?

N JACK MENERA: What happened is that I did explain yesterday, that the son to Mr Phelane, we went from Brandfort to Virginia.  They went to fetch dynamite, then they were arrested and then Sibikhoto was not arrested and he was a state witness because he left Brandfort to go and fetch those explosives from Virginia, then he returned with them to Brandfort.  So that is my testimony because what I'm saying is on the record and if you want the records of those cases you will find that Edward Phelane was the state witness against those two comrades from Virginia. If I remember well it's 1986. Those comrades were sentenced, then they were put in Grootvlei Maximum Prison.  One of them is Seth and his brother was Ten Percent.  Those were the people who were sentenced by the evidence given by Edward Phelane who gave it in court.  I think I've answered your question.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Are you saying that in that case it was testified by the son of Mr Phelane...(intervention),

ADV DE JAGER: If I can help you, his name was Edward,

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you Chairperson, Edward, it was testified by Edward that he went to fetch these things in Virginia.

N JACK MENERA: Let me tell you shortly.  I'm saying Edward Phelane became the state witness in this case.  I wasn't present during the court case.  What I heard from the comrades is that Edward Phelane is a state witness in that case.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Just try to speak Sesotho.

N JACK MENERA: Alright. Thank you Sir.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Edward was at that time a Taxi owner and an active taxi driver, in other words that was his work?

N JACK MENERA: Yes he was a taxi driver.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Is it correct that you have told everything about the dynamite and the arrest and that you heard everything about this from your colleagues?

N JACK MENERA: Shortly the way I was told by my fellow comrades such as Seth and Ten Percent, and other comrades who were not arrested and attended the case, those are the people who gave me that information.

MR VAN DER MERWE: In other words you only heard all of this?

N JACK MENERA: It is as I have explained, I only heard from my comrades.  I just want to understand, there was nothing happening in the Youth League which we could not understand that who did what.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thus you don't know what the evidence was which was given in court.  You didn't hear this yourself and therefore you cannot give evidence on it?  Is that correct.

N JACK MENERA: It is like that but the point is as I've explained there was nothing which would happen by one of my comrades which was not known. So Seth and this Ten Percent, we knew them as comrades, therefore what happened to them we had to follow so that we should enquire and find out what happened to them.

MR VAN DER MERWE: You also testified that there was another incident where dynamite was found at the home of Mr Phelane and he was not prosecuted.  Is that correct?

N JACK MENERA: That information I got because it happened whilst i was in prison.

MR VAN DER MERWE: ... in 1991?

N JACK MENERA: I think I was attending this Phelane case.  I remember the first time I heard about this.  I heard it from the police who fetched me from prison to take me to the magistrate court. That is Mr John Tauw(?), that is the person who informed me that they have arrested Mr Morgan Phelane  with explosives which were found in his home or at his shop, I don't understand whether it was in his shop or at his home.  I asked from the comrades in Brandfort, I asked them as to whether I heard this kind of thing as to whether Mr Phelane was arrested with explosives, so the comrades told me that they heard that Mr Morgan Phelane was arrested with explosives and he was never trialed for that.

MR VAN DER MERWE: If I understand correctly in both of these cases, the first case when the dynamite was found and the second case when dynamite was found, you believed what was told you?

N JACK MENERA: I want to tell you something.  I would not agree with anything which I was told by my comrades who would just say somebody is like this. I would accept what he tells me as a comrade.