Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-09-02

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was one who they were used, he was a member of the Intelligence Service as far as I can remember.  He was a person who was printing pamphlets about propaganda.  If you wanted to smear other person's name, then you would go and print them somewhere.  Then from there he will return with them.  Then during the night, he would distribute them in the township to implicate a certain person whom we wanted him to be isolated by the community.  If he does not want to cooperate with the Special Branch.  That is a person who would give us the explosives.

MR VISSER: So he was busy with propaganda and explosives?  Is this the person in fact, who gave the explosives, because that is how I understand your page 41?  He gave the explosives to whom?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He was a direct contact of Colonel Coetzee, so I haven't spoken to him.   I only saw him bringing the box, then he was taken to a room.  Whether he, what extent of the contact, I don't know but he was a member of the Intelligence Service of the South African Defence Force.

MR VISSER: Mr Ngo, were you present when explosives were handed by Brigadier Liebenberg to Colonel Coetzee, were you present, did you see it?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He brought them to him, I was present.  I saw him.

MR VISSER: What did these explosives look like?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I don't know how they looked like, it was Bester who was using explosives, they were in a box.  I didn't open the box to look at them, or use them.

MR VISSER: When you went to brandfort, did you take that box along with you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, we take it along with us.

MR VISSER: In a motor vehicle?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes, that is true.

MR VISSER: How big was this box?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was a small box.

CHAIRPERSON: And who went with you to Brandfort?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is Bester and Ramoseu.

CHAIRPERSON: Just the three of you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: And you didn't meet anyone else there, it was just the three of you throughout the operation?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We who was supposed to go there, was myself and Bester and we didn't meet any person until we arrived at the police station.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't meet anyone at Brandfort when you were doing the operation?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I would say it is Warrant Officer Swanepoel, but we met somebody.  If I remember well, or if I remember his name well.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you meet him?  I am looking at your statement and I am trying to find reference to anyone else and I cannot find any.  You've got your statements in front of you Mr Ngo, have you?  You have been reading from it, on page 19 and page 20.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: We didn't meet him about the operation.  We passed him at the police station because before we went there, we passed the police station.

CHAIRPERSON: I am asking you about the operation.  Were there just the three of you concerned in that operation?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It was the three of us, that is myself, Bester and Ramoseu up to the clinic.  Nobody else.

MR VISSER: Well then, please would you explain what you stated at page 5 of bundle C in paragraph (c)?  I am going to read it to you.
"On instructions of Colonel Coetzee...
now listen carefully, 
"...Warrant Officer Ramoseu, Sergeant Mamome, Constable Motsamai and Constable Mtyala and I, now that is, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 persons, went to the clinic of Mrs  Winnie Mandela in Brandfort...."
etc, etc.  Now how does that tally with the reply which you just gave Justice Wilson that you were only three?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The first operation we were three.  As I said, we went to Brandfort two times.

MR VISSER: Well, Mr Ngo, I want to put it to you that there is nothing in the application or in your evidence until this moment, that suggested to any of us sitting here that you were talking about two separate incidents.
	I am suggesting to you that you intended only to apply for amnesty in regard to one incident, not two as you now wish to testify.

ADV DE JAGER: Could there be a confusion because they have attacked the house at one occasion and the clinic on the other?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, it is a valid question and we went into this issue very carefully.  And it is quite clear Mr Chairman, if you look at Motsamai's application, that what he deals with is an attack on a house and is an attack on a clinic and when Mr Ramoseu, our client gives evidence, he will tell you that he was stationed at Brandfort at the time and there were in fact two separate attacks.  The one on the clinic and the one on the house.
	In other words, Mr Chairman, there is room as Commissioner De Jager points out, because of the proximity of the buildings, certainly, and we do bear that in mind, but at the end of the day Mr Chairman, if you look at Mr Ngo's application for amnesty, he is applying for only, in our submission, one incident, not two.	His counsel Mr Chairman, was present at the pre-trial conference, the minutes of which reads at paragraph 2.4 - the bombing and burning of the clinic of Winnie Mandela.  No indication was ever given at that time although it was specifically discussed that there were two incidents that Mr Ngo was applying for instead of one.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, this submission is not entirely correct.  If one looks at the summary of incidents in respect of which Mr Motsamai applies, there is a reference to two times house and clinic.  This led to some discussion during the pre-hearing meeting and we undertook to take instructions to clarify the matter whether the house was burnt twice or whether it was once.

MR VISSER: So what is the result of the instructions, Mr Chairman?  Nobody has given you any feedback on whatever the result is, but the argument is incorrect Mr Chairman.
	If you go on with the pre-trial minute, to where Mr Motsamai's application is discussed, it is quite clear Mr Chairman, and that is the reason why this was discussed, in paragraph 6.2 and 6.3, that Motsamai is applying for two incidents.	That was why we raised the issue of Mr Ngo whether it is one or two incidents at the pre-trial minute.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Chairman, what was discussed was the incident relating to Mr Motsamai.  It says that he is applying for the house twice and once for the clinic.  It is not true that Mr Ngo's application was discussed at that stage relating to the number of times in which the house would have been bombed.

ADV DE JAGER: Perhaps, Mr Ngo, could clear it up.  What did you in fact bomb at Brandfort at Mrs Mandela's place, the clinic or the house?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: The first time if the Judge would look there, when Ramoseu and Bester ... (intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: It is a straight question, please Mr Ngo, I don't want to look elsewhere, what did you bomb at Mrs Mandela's place?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Our target was the clinic, we went to the clinic.

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, were you ever involved in a bombing of Mrs Mandela's house?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, I took part again in the operation for the clinic.  I never took part in the bombing of the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say the clinic was bombed twice or attacked twice?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Have you ever heard rumours or are you aware that her house has also been attacked?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I heard those rumours, but I don't know how and when it was attacked and I didn't take part in that.

ADV DE JAGER: I see.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: It should be perfectly simple shouldn't it, to check whether the clinic was attacked twice.

MR VISSER: My instructions are it was attacked only once, Mr Chairman.  But you will hear that evidence when my people give evidence.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Well, Mr Memani, part of your problem is that your client is never able to say I don't remember and I don't know.