Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1998-04-21

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I understand your explanation very well and your explanation is accepted by myself.  I understand you very well but what I want - what I'm driving at now is the fact that this woman who was standing here who was actually the mother, her name needs to cleared since you realise that it was a mistake, Koti was not the mother.  Are you still with me?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, and I'm committed to doing that.  I understand you perfectly.  I am committed to apologising to her about everything.  As I've explained before, the IFP in collaboration with the National Party killed a lot of people in Kwa Zulu Natal for engaging in those activities and they used as soldiers in these activities.
	What I can say to Gendinga's mother is that I apologise for claiming that it was indeed her who wanted her son to be killed.  I apologise wholeheartedly, unreservably but I will also add that the situation was thus because of Koti and the Mandeni leadership.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: If you move to page 189 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please settle down.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is the killing of an Induna on instruction of Chief Mataba.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I know you have testified that some of the names you cannot recall.  This Chief's name you still cannot recall, this particular chief?  You can't recall him?

CHAIRPERSON: You mean the Induna?

MR HLONGWANE: I think there's a mistake somewhere here.  My 189 is on CG's attack, I don't know who you're talking about.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: No, no, the one where Chief Mataba had said this Induna must be assassinated because he was against, he demanded the burning of traditional weapons, do you remember the Induna's name?  It starts from page 187, paragraph 151.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I remember what happened there.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Ja, that was testified to, the name of the Induna who was killed, do you remember the name?

MR HLONGWANE: I do not remember the name.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.  The same again - if the Chair could just bear with me.  Now, let's move to page 191, paragraph 155, the incident where your colleague was hit with a brick on the forehead.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I have found the page.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I've been informed - actually I spoke to the very victim here and he said his actual names are not as stated here, his names are Izack Mkotliseni Nhlengethwe, would you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I remember.  I think I wrote rather his surname incorrectly.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I have caused the person to stand.
	Is that the person?  Is that the victim?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is him.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, so then - just please be quiet.  So whenever the name Nshleko appears it should be Nhlengethwe?

MR HLONGWANE: Nhlengethwe.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  N-H-L-E-N-G-E-T-H-W-E?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: W-A.

CHAIRPERSON: W-A.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That is correct.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Now let's move to the last incident, the killing of the so-called ANC painters.
	Members of the Committee, I'm sorry, page 200, paragraph 181.

MR HLONGWANE: 181?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Ja, paragraph 181.  After these boys, the deceased had arrived on the scene, what did they do before you could shoot?

MR HLONGWANE: They were actually erasing what we had written.  They had done this before and we had to re-write that message.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, I'm obliged to intervene at this stage, I've just been approached to, and it's indicated that there is one of the persons implicated, a Major Zama who is standing in view of all of the applicants just outside and who is making the security around here feel concerned about them being here and they would prefer to take a short adjournment at this stage to resolve that problem.

CHAIRPERSON: We had said earlier we would take a short adjournment at 3 o'clock seeing that we began at half past one.  We can take a short adjournment but I might indicate that implicated persons do have a right to attend the hearing and I'd be loathe to excluded an implicated person from attending a hearing because other people may just be afraid of him being here.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR HLONGWANE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  I just want to place on record that the persons whom I represent have absolutely no objection and have never had any objection for Major Zama or anyone else for that matter, to come in participate in these proceedings.  The objection that was raised by - the objection raised by the security was standing in the hallway outside of the building and facing the persons and making intimidatory gestures, that was the problem, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.  Mr Mpshe?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  For record purposes as to what caused the adjournment.  There is a gentleman, Major Zama who is currently stationed at Sundumbili.
	This Major Zama was implicated viva voce by Romeo Mbambo.  He was here with his Advocate, Advocate Mkhize inasfar as Major Zama's rights are concerned.  I had a minute talk with Advocate Mkhize to whom I explained the procedure, to whom I explained what they can do and to whom I further explained their rights as implicated persons.
	Advocate Mkhize agreed that there is nothing that can be done now but they would like to be present and refute or dispute allegations against Major Zama, made by Romeo Mbambo.  And he suggested to me that they would like to do that, not at this hearing but at the next or subsequent hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Mpshe, will a formal notice in terms of Section 30 be issued and then perhaps when it becomes available, the relevant transcript of the proceedings be forwarded to Major Zama and/or his Advocate, Mr Mkhize?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee, that is exactly what I have explained to him and that is our standing agreement.

CHAIRPERSON: And was it also made known to them that if they desired, they were welcome to attend from now?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: That I did mention specifically but the advocate said that it would not be wise for them to be in attendance, they prefer to leave.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Is there anybody else who wishes to say anything?   I think we can continue.  Mr Mpshe, you were asking Mr Hlongwane questions when we adjourned.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairperson.  Incidentally, the question I was asking was the last question Mr Hlongwane had responded to that.  No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, I did not hear the answer because at the stage the interruption was made by the security so possibly Mr Mpshe can just indicate to me what that answer was, thank you.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairperson, if the Chair allows.  My question to Mr Hlongwane was, I asked him as to what did these boys do after arriving before the shooting and he said they were busy rubbing off what they had written on the boards or on the street, that was the answer, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Mr Wills, do you have any re-examination?

MR WILLS: Just one point, thank you Mr Chairperson.
	Mr Hlongwane, you've given evidence that Shalganani Hall is in fact in an ANC section, is that correct, J1 Section?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: Is it J1 Section or is it H1?

MR HLONGWANE: J1.

MR WILLS: And is it also not true that Shlanganani Hall is the Municipal Offices for Esikhawini?

MR HLONGWANE: ...[no English translation]

MR WILLS: Shlanganani Hall constitutes the Municipal Offices for eSikhawini?  All the Councillors offices are at Shlanganani Hall.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: And also at that stage, is it no so that all the Councillors were in fact IFP supporting Councillors?

MR HLONGWANE: That's correct.