Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

<UNKNOWN>: Chairperson, that was raised that this documentation need to be disclosed before the Committee, that was not disclosed to me, I do not have it in the Department but I believe it's proper that the Committee should have possession of the documentation.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: But find out from the applicant whether there is anything of substance in that particular document which has not been covered in what we have.

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Chairperson.   The disclosure, motivation that you are referring to here Mr Gcinisizwe, the Committee, you heard, would like to know if you believe it will be much of relevance to the Committee, vis a vis to
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what you have already said in your application.

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: In the brief motivation attached to the application, there are some of the issues and activities of Nzimeni that are not on and I think we are here to clarify further on what is not on the document, what we didn't indicate in this, in the briefing.

<UNKNOWN>: No, may I ask you this, in that document which we don't have, is there anything which firstly has not been covered by your handwritten submission?  Secondly, what items have not been covered by your oral evidence?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: I think it's there.

<UNKNOWN>: Perhaps you are still testifying, maybe I should ask that question after the end of your evidence. I'll assume you'll get to telling us everything, including that which is contained in those documents, isn't it?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: Yes it is so.

JUDGE WILSON: Do you realise that what we are asking you about is not the brief motivation which was attached to your application, we are asking about the full disclosure which was submitted separately to the Department of Justice?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: Yes I'm aware.

<UNKNOWN>: Chairperson, I have no further questions for the witness on the stand from my side.

<UNKNOWN>: Well maybe we should do this.  Mr, you have just said to me that in the  (Tape 1B ends)
......which are neither contained in your written submission nor in the evidence you have thus far given, am I right?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: Yes it is so.

<UNKNOWN>: And you say that those things are relevant?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: Yes I think they are important.

<UNKNOWN>: Tell us what those things are. Because we don't 1B.	therefore/...
heavily armed and by that time we were not armed yet.  We had not started arming ourselves yet.  When the comrades reported at the National 
Union of the Mine Workers, they advised that the comrades of the location must find a taxi and that we must hunt for these people and we've got the taxis to do that.  And we found them then we beat them up, we find some of them, we beat them up on the 26th of August.  The one I remember very well is Carter and other two that we found on that day, the rest of the group, we never found them, they were already in hiding. On that same day, after having beaten them up we took them home. On that same day I got a call from my mother to say that you must never come home today, Nzimeni has just left with his group and are having all dangerous weapons and they say they want your head. You better stay just where you are. And I assured her that I'm safe because there's comrades in Agnes' house.  On Wednesday I was arrested for beating these people.  After a lengthy trial at the regional court which took a year, in the Klerksdorp Regional Court, we were acquitted on the basis of lack of evidence against accused.  It was myself, Siabonga Sebe, Walter Siharudzi and Albie Fasie.  All of us were in this case of beating these other group members.  On Monday the 27th, on the 27th of August it was on a Monday, we were still hunting for them.  We had strength and power and the comrades were coming into Agnes place and we were carrying pangas and knives as well, all these dangerous weapons because the situation was becoming clear that it was dangerous.  We heard from the local police station when we got there, we were told that Mr de Beer will be called because he was with us in the working 1B.	group/...
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group. When he came, Mr de Beer, there were two comrades from the Regional Office, Zakes Mulekane and Howard, he was the chairperson of the regional office ANC, and Howard Dao.  We cannot discuss this in front of the police, we must go to a meeting.  Then we went to Wurakanela High School on the 27th of August.  When we got there we sat down and discussed this matter trying to get their viewpoint as to why do they do this?  The things that they disclosed they were not clear, they said they don't believe that we must discuss to form a working group with the police because they are not, I'll explain this issue of KUYOK. KUYOK of 1986 which was burning and finding targets, burning police cars and bakeries, everything they would enter the location delivering, burning police houses and everything.  They said they were members of KUYOK and they don't believe into the things that we do to sit down discussing.  They don't like discussions at all.  We came...(intervention)

<UNKNOWN>: I believe you have outlayed the way Mazwi conducted himself and you said that the manner that, as a member of the ANC,  the manner he conducted himself made you suspicious of him. What is there that you suspected about him?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: You know when you are a member of an organisation, you've got a democratic right to participate in all meetings and all the discussions and their strategies. When you fight for a struggle of the freedom of the people in South Africa in general and the people of Kuma.

CHAIRPERSON: Answer, what made you suspicious of this man?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: It's because of his behaviour and his deeds, we started being very	161
therefore they must disappear before, because they threatened them because they were suspicious of him and the fact that 
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they took food forcefully and carrying pangas and things that we never carried as members of the ANC and members of the Youth Congress as well.

<UNKNOWN>: Referring you to the application that the members of this Committee have in their possession, in
answering the question asked it's 10.A where you were asked to state a political objective sought to be achieved.

<UNKNOWN>: ....because to some of us this question may be important, you asked the question and there was some misunderstanding I believe and the Chairman interrupted, that's not the question you asked the witness, you didn't ask the witness as to what made you suspicious of him, your question was, what is it that you suspected of him, that was actually the question and that question hasn't been answered.  What is it that you suspected of him?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: The main thing that I was suspecting about Mazwi was that he was not a groomed patriot, he's not a member of the ANC or the ANC Youth Congress as he was claiming, because of his deeds.

<UNKNOWN>: Was there anything that you may have seen in him or what he did and you saw that made you suspicious that he could be doing what he did out of mandate from somewhere other than the ANC structures?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: You see the way he was, his attitude when he was about to talk to us, that's one thing that made us very suspicious of him, then the language that he was using, that's some of the things that made us to be very suspicious of him.  But it was just suspicions.

<UNKNOWN>: I know you said you suspected that he was not a groomed person and he probably was not a genuine member of the ANC as he claimed he was, what did you suspect he was?
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I know you told us what you suspected he was not but I would like to know what you suspected him to have been?

DLANJWA GCINISIZWE: I was suspecting that he was an informer, a spy.