Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-10-05

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: That is correct that we handed everything to the commander except the watch, it belonged to one of the victims.

MR VAN DEN BERG: The watch and you kept that for yourself?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: The reason for not handing over the watch to the commander at that time, when we offloaded at Kopane's house, there was a person who was watching outside.  The car which was outside was a 16 valve Conquest and the Mercedes Benz parked and it's a new one and then in that yard the value of those cars did not suit to be parked next to the place and the police were passing through.  Therefore the person who was outside came to report that the police were there, then therefore we had to get inside the cars so that we'll be able to leave.  The police would not just leave the Mercedes Benz in that kind of a yard.

CHAIRPERSON: So what's that got to do about with keeping the watch?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: When I took the watch from the owner I had my watch on my arms then I put that watch on my other hand, then when we were busy offloading, when the person came to report that the police parked at the fourth house, I left everything there, then I entered into the car and I forgot about the watch until we were arrested.

MR VAN DEN BERG: After you were arrested, you pointed out certain things to the police, do you recall that?  Inter alia you took them to Kopane's house?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: When I was arrested, the reason for me to go with the police to my place and Kopane's house, it was because I wanted a bail application then they told me that they will not give me a bail application if they don't know where I stay, then I had to direct them everywhere where I went with them and then we immediately arrived they would start searching the property.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Where were the goods offloaded, Mr Mofokeng?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: We offloaded at Kopane's house.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And so it's correct then if you look at page 50 of the bundle of documents and about line 19 of that page
	"and there accused number one"
that's yourself
	"pointed out a distinctive pink Blaupunkt radio 	identified by the Stantons as theirs."
Do you see that?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes I do.  I want to put it this way, Brixton wanted to know where Kopane was staying.  When they arrived at Kopane's place they took a radio which belonged to Kopane's family and they made it an exhibit.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that this pink radio referred to here on page 50 was Kopane's radio or some relative of Kopane's?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes, it belonged to Kopane's family.  For them to take the tape, they explained that this doesn't belong to anybody else but belongs to his family.

ADV MOTATA: Just there - but further, Mr Mofokeng, if you read, it says a pink Blaupunkt radio shown at Exhibit F6 and identified by the Stantons as theirs.

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I wanted to ask as to whether when they identified that that radio is theirs, where did they identify that radio because it was not taken to court.

ADV MOTATA: You can take it from there, Mr van den Berg.

MR VAN DEN BERG: It seems to me, Mr Mofokeng, that this was one of the findings in your trial that in fact that radio belonged to the Stantons.

CHAIRPERSON: But it also had an exhibit number, you say it wasn't at court?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: No.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you don't know where this Exhibit F6 comes from?  Shown on exhibit - no that's right.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I don't think I can take it very much further, Mr Chairperson.
	When I was cross-examining Mr Nkabinde, I advised him that I consulted with Mr Tjitja who is a prisoner at the Zonderwater prison, do you remember that?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes I do.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now initially Mr Tjitja denied any involvement in these two acts, he said that he had merely got a lift with Gadebe and yourself to the Transkei, he knew nothing about the attack on the Jacobs house and the armed robbery at the Stanton house.  Now you can't comment on that because you don't know what he told me.  When I advised him that you and Mr Nkabinde had applied for amnesty, he then advised me that he was in fact involved in these two acts, that he was not a member of APLA, that he had not received any military training and that as far as he was concerned, this was an act of criminality.  He was going to share in the proceeds of these two acts.  Can you comment on that?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I'll not say much about Thabang because firstly I don't know him and as I don't know him, what he said to you, firstly he told a lie then you take the second statement as true.  I don't know what to say in that regard.  Firstly you asked him then he denied taking part, then you asked him for the second time then he agreed.  Therefore I don't know as to whether you accept the first lie or the second lie.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mofokeng, how did Thabang become part of the group of five?  When did you meet him for the first time?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I met him for the first time on that day when we went to Monde.  It was myself, Thabang, all of us, the five of us.  As to whether he was a member or not a member I did not know because I was a supporter and I was part of that group.  I did not know as to whether there were other members or supporters of the PAC in that group.

ADV MOTATA: Did you know where Thabang lived?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes I did.

ADV MOTATA: Where is that?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: That is Central.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr van den Berg.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Well you say that Tjitja then told me two lies but you confirm that he was involved?

CHAIRPERSON: What he's saying is that Tjitja told you two conflicting versions and he doesn't know which one you accept to be lie and which one you accept to be the truth.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Well can I put it to you this way, Mr Mofokeng, one of the criteria to qualify for amnesty is that you make full disclosure.  You're aware of that?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: May you please repeat your question sir?

MR VAN DEN BERG: One of the things that you need to do to qualify for amnesty is that you must make full disclosure, you must tell this Committee all the facts that you know about.

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: Yes I do, I do know.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And one of the facts is that Tjitja was involved in these incidents?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I just find it strange that a person who is not an APLA member, not an APLA cadre, is involved in an act like this?  I want to suggest to you that this an act of pure criminality.  Do you want to comment?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: You can take it that way that it was a criminal act because you have the right to do so because you did not know as to when I met Monde what did I want.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van den Berg.  Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairman, thank you.
	Mr Jacobs you said he belonged to the right-wing organisation.  Which organisation was that?

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: I don't know which organisation which he belonged but according to the information I received, when they speak of a person who is a member of the right-wing organisation, that is Conservative Party and AWB, so I didn't know as to whether which one of the two he belonged.

MICHAEL KGIBA MOFOKENG: You say when the speak of a person belonging to a right-wing organisation that is Conservative Party?  I didn't get you clearly I sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: He said the Conservative Party or the AWB, but he's not sure which one he belonged, he says when he talks about right-wing, what he considers right-wing is Conservative Party or AWB?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I see, thank you Mr Chairman.
	I take it that this operation was carried out by yourselves as a unit?