Special Hearings — Mandela United Football Club Hearings — 1997-11-25

MR VALLY: Okay.  You stated, the question was put to you by the State Advocate in that matter, and I will put the question to you.  Did she say anything at that stage, you said right, now what was the next thing that happened.  After we were introduced, Winnie started insulting us.  It was then put to you, now did she say anything at that stage that you can remember and your answer was, yes, I remember the words.  The words she said, she said we are not fit to be alive.  When you made that statement, were you under pressure to make that statement, or was it freely and voluntarily?

PELO MEKGWE: I was not forced to make that statement.

MR VALLY: Nothing further Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin wants to ask something.

YASMINE SOOKA: Mr Mekgwe, you are represented by an Attorney, did you advise your Attorney before you appeared this morning, that there were discrepancies between the two statements that have been presented by the TRC?  Did you inform him that pressure had been brought to bear upon you by an investigator of the TRC?

PELO MEKGWE: I don't think I told him.

YASMINE SOOKA: Why not?

PELO MEKGWE: I forgot about this thing.

YASMINE SOOKA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Hanif, yes?

MR VALLY: Mr Mekgwe, I am looking at your handwritten statement.  I beg your pardon the handwritten statement that was taken by Ms Groenewald.  Now the sentence that was problem was - I just want to read it to you because there is a bit of a contradiction.
 I will read the whole paragraph.  Winnie Mandela arrived before the accusations, she was brought a chair to sit down, she took part in ... (tape ends) ... do you recall this?  Shall I show it to you?

PELO MEKGWE: I say it, yes, I recall it.

MR VALLY: Right.  Now, in the same handwritten statement I will show it to you, this was when she was interviewing you, taking your statement about what had happened, is that correct?

PELO MEKGWE: Yes.

MR VALLY: You said this is when you were talking about having left the country.  I returned to South Africa in 1993, I went to Ikaneng.  I knew I was supposed to appear in court before I left.  I believed the people who helped me to get out, also knew that.  At that stage I did not want to testify in the apartheid regime.  The story I told in court was true, except that I said I would give further testimony, while I knew I was going away.
 Then there is a sentence, Winnie Mandela was there when I was assaulted.  Must I show that to you?  Do you see that?

PELO MEKGWE: I see it, yes.

MR VALLY: Is that the same statement, do you recall saying that?

PELO MEKGWE: Yes, I remember it.

MR VALLY: Can I put it into context for you?  Did Ms Groenewald as the person who was doing the investigation and taking your statement, point out to you that lying under oath whether in court or whether before the TRC, was an offence?

PELO MEKGWE: She said that to me.

MR VALLY: As she took the statement down, you made the first statement where you said you weren't sure whether Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was there.  During the course of the second statement, sorry, during the course of the statement, later on, talking about your return to South Africa, you then say something where you say Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was there.
 The one I have just shown you there, this all happened during the same time.

PELO MEKGWE: Yes, it happened at the same time.

MR VALLY: Were you made this two statements in the same handwritten statements, is that correct?

PELO MEKGWE: Yes.

MR VALLY: Did you tell Ms Groenewald  which was the correct version?

PELO MEKGWE: I said to her I don't remember exactly (indistinct).  She referred to the statement that I had given in court before.

MR VALLY: I understand this, but what is your final position.  Was your final position, and I am talking about the time the statement was taken, not now.  Was your final position that yes, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was present when the assaults took place or Mrs Madikizela-Mandela was not present?

PELO MEKGWE: She was present before the assault.

MR VALLY: And was this the final version you gave to Ms Groenewald at the time when she was writing down your statement?

PELO MEKGWE: You are correct.

MR VALLY: So you had corrected what you had said earlier in the same statement?

PELO MEKGWE: Yes.

MR VALLY: So that if she was to type out the statement, and she put what you said as the correct version, this would still be your version, your story?  Do you understand my question?  Let me repeat it.
 You say on the one hand I am not sure whether she was part of the assault, the same statement later on you say Winnie left at some stage, but she was there when I was assaulted.  I am talking about the handwritten statement.  You give these two versions in the same handwritten statement?

PELO MEKGWE: Yes.

MR VALLY: She then asked you hang on, you are saying this here, you are saying this here.  Perjury is an offence.  Lying under oath is an offence, whether in court or before the TRC. What is the correct version, you then tell her the correct version is Winnie left at some stage, but she was there when I was assaulted.

PELO MEKGWE: She started the assault, and after that she left.

MR VALLY: I understand that, but I am just talking about what is written down Mr Mekgwe.  You told Ms Groenewald at the time she wrote her statement, she noted your statement, that the correct version was the second bit that you put in the same statement and I will read it to you again.
 Winnie left at some stage, but she was there when I was assaulted.  Did you tell Ms Groenewald at the time that she took your statement, that that was the correct version?

PELO MEKGWE: Yes, that was the correct version

MR VALLY: And what you had said earlier on, was not correct?

PELO MEKGWE: Yes.  As far as, she was not referring to the previous statement.

MR VALLY: To the statement in court?

PELO MEKGWE: Yes.

MR VALLY: And she talked about perjury?

PELO MEKGWE: Yes.

MR VALLY: So then after she told you what the law was, you then said the second version was correct?

PELO MEKGWE: Yes.

MR VALLY: So in other words, what appears in the statement where it says Winnie left at some stage, but she was there when I was assaulted, is your version?

PELO MEKGWE: Yes.

MR VALLY: It is not Ms Groenewald's version?

PELO MEKGWE: Yes.

MR VALLY: And what as it appears is the correction of the previous statement you made in the same statement where you say I am not sure whether she was part of the assault?

PELO MEKGWE: Yes, that is the correction.

MR VALLY: Thank you very much Mr Mekgwe.

MR SEMENYA: May we indicate our difficulty, we no longer know what is the process, not the time allocated seems to go over and I see Mr Vally is questioning the witness for the second time.  Do we have this facility as well?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I had to say that when we are given the task of seeking to establish the truth and he is our person to assist us in doing that.  We have given you the opportunity and I am quite willing if you wanting to come in, to do your bit, because what we are now going to do is to ask Ms Groenewald to take the stand so that she can in fact be able not through a first person, be asked what in fact took place.
 You have finished, Hanif?

MR VALLY: With Mr Mekgwe yes.  Yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should stand down, thank you very much.

PELO MEKGWE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Semenya, I am quite willing to let you if you were wanting to come in at this stage?