Amnesty Hearings — Vereeniging — 1999-01-22

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: When I was at Court I was told that other property was found there at the open veld, so there are other people who left their property there and that is what led to the police to realise that the people who attacked at Boipatong went to KwaMadala.  So other people left their property at the open veld.

MR BERGER: And many, many didn't, with the result that the property landed up in KwaMadala and had to be burnt the following day.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct, the property that ended up at KwaMadala hostel was more than the property that was left at the open veld.

MR BERGER: You didn't fear that the army would arrest you, did you?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I was not afraid that the soldiers would arrest me because most of use were armed, so we were going to fight back and we knew that they'd would run away.

MR BERGER: But they made no attempt to approach you, the army, nor did they run away, correct?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I cannot say that they ran away because they just moved up.  I was told after that they tried to corner us from the front.  I learnt about that in Court.  So whether they took any initiatives to arrest us, I don't know.

MR BERGER: You are not aware of any initiatives taken by the soldiers to arrest you, am I right?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: Am I correct - well, I'd rather put it to you that the reason that you were not afraid of the soldiers is because you were aware that the police were assisting you in Boipatong and you knew that the authorities were not going to stop you on your way back into the hostel, isn't that right?

MR DA SILVA: I object to the question, Mr Chairman, there's no link that even if the police were aware that the army would have been aware of this, I submit with respect, that this question is unfounded.  There is no evidence before this Committee at this stage that there was a collusion between the army and the attackers.  The only evidence before, in the statement of Mr Nosenga is that there might have been a possible link between the police and the attackers.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, we have a situation where a large number, hundreds of armed men are moving from Boipatong, this is common cause, from Boipatong to KwaMadala and this witness and several witnesses before him have confirmed that the army made no attempt whatsoever to stop them.  Prima facie, that speaks of collusion, I submit.

MR DA SILVA: With respect, no, Mr Chairperson.  The only evidence before this Committee is a single military vehicle, on the probabilities.  The fact that they at that stage did not do something outwardly doesn't mean that there's collusion, with respect.  It's quite clear one single vehicle compared to 300 attackers, what can a single vehicle do?

CHAIRPERSON: I think it's a matter for argument.  The situation we have here is that there is a large group of individuals who on the evidence we've had so far, were carrying items and were ...(indistinct), they are seen by the army.  On the evidence that we've heard there is nothing that the army does.  So what has been put to this witness is the simple proposition that it is because of a collusion, the army was helping them.  It is entirely up to the witness, either to admit or deny.  I think there is sufficient factual basis to test the proposition against the witness.  In those circumstances the question will be allowed.

MR BERGER: Mr Magubane?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand the question, Mr Magubane?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: May you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: You have told us that you're not afraid of the army.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I was not afraid because I knew that if they tried to come to us I would fight back and shoot at them.

CHAIRPERSON: What counsel is putting to you is that you were not afraid of the army, not for the reason that you've just stated, namely you were going to fight it, but because the army and the police were helping you during this massacre and therefore they would not arrest you and that is why you were not afraid of them.  Is that the proposition you're wanting to put, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: It is, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do you understand what I've just put to you?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your answer?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: No, that is not so.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, perhaps we could take the adjournment now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  We will take an adjournment now and come back at twenty to eleven.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Magubane, may I remind you that you are still under oath.

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: (Continued)   Thank you, Chairperson.
	Mr Magubane, you will recall that it's been put to you that in the Caspir in which you were moving towards Boipatong there were certain policemen, including Mr Peens and a policeman known as Rooikop.  Now I'm going to ask - you say you don't know Rooikop?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: That's correct.

MR BERGER: I'm going to ask Mr Peens and the policeman known as Rooikop, who are here today, to come forward and I'm going to ask you if you can identify Mr Peens and I'm going to ask you if you don't know who the other man is ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr Berger, he knows Mr Peens.  There is no issue about Mr Peens, he knows Mr Peens.  The only person that he says he didn't know is the person known as Shaka and the person known as Rooikop.

MR BERGER: Apparently I was mistaken, Shaka is not here but Rooikop is here.
	In that event I'll ask only Rooikop to come forward and ask you, Mr Magubane, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Magubane, do you understand the context in which counsel is asking you to identify, to tell us whether the person that you are going to be shown now you know?  Do you understand that?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR BOTHA: As you please, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Botha, yes?

MR BOTHA: I've received instructions now also to appear on behalf of Mr Greeff, also known as Rooikop.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.  Will you just spell the surname of Mr Greeff for the record please.

MR BOTHA: G-R-E-E-F-F.  His first name is Hardus.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.  Is that gentleman here?  Who of you gentlemen is Mr Greeff?  Are you also known as Rooikop?  You are Mr Greeff?

MR GREEFF: That is right.  Are you also known as Rooikop?

MR GREEFF: That is right.

MR BERGER: Mr Magubane, do you recognise this gentleman with the white hair who is known as Rooikop, have you see him before?

RUBEN MAGANGA TEBOGO MAGUBANE: I saw this white man, I saw him at the offices of the investigation unit.  He was investigating the violence.  That is the first time that I met him.  I was in the van that he was driving.  He was driving me to their offices.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I think that - unless the Committee wishes, Mr Greeff and Mr Peens can be seated now, it's not necessary for them to ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Greeff, do you confirm that Advocate Botha is your legal representative in these proceedings?

MR GREEFF: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Let me just take this opportunity because Mr Peens is also here.  The gentleman next to you, would he move over to the microphone please.  Are you Mr Peens?

MR PEENS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What are you full names, Sir?

MR PEENS: Gerhardus Dirk.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR PEENS: Peens.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm that Advocate Botha is your legal representative in these proceedings?

MR PEENS: That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Thank you gentlemen, you may be seated.  Yes, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Berger.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you want to say anything, Mr ...