Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-25

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, at this stage I was in a hearing where I had been found guilty.  The process had not got going yet and when the process at a later stage got going, I was brought under the impression that a witch-hunt would be carried out against us, Nuremberg style hearings, trials would take place. That was my own perception and was already in 1993 - the way it was conveyed to me
by Advocate Hodgen of the Attorney General's office.

MR PHOSA: You refer to the Nuremberg style process.  Look, give us an idea what your concern is about that if that was going to happen to you, what was the problem with that according to you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, the way I understood it I would not be given a fair opportunity to state my case, that's the way I understood it.

MR PHOSA: Did Mr Hodgen say to you - according to his understanding, the then existing criminal process would be abandoned?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is correct, that is the way it was explained to me.

MR PHOSA: Are you saying he said that to you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Yes.

MR PHOSA: Did you think - did you understand from what was said to you, that you'll go before a judge?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, he didn't explain to me the procedure, he just said that there would be Nuremberg style trials.

MR PHOSA: Do you say that was at a stage when there already were - was another matter pending against you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: And was the procedure, sorry - had that matter not commenced yet?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No.

MR PHOSA: Is Mr Hodgen this gentleman who used to be in the Eastern Cape Attorney General's office?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: He was the Acting Attorney General.

MR PHOSA: Is he still alive?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I suspect so Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: In all circumstances, did he give you that sort of advice or interpretation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I beg your pardon.  It was during the Goniwe inquest that he informed me to this effect.

MR PHOSA: Where you and Mr Hodgen dealing with the Goniwe inquest's facts?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Perhaps I should just explain.  I was tasked with assisting the team who represented the police during the inquest.

MR PHOSA: It didn't come out clearly to me the way it was interpreted - I'm not saying it's wrong but what does it mean, you were tasked with what?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: I had to assist with the legal team which represented the police as a whole during the inquest.

MR PHOSA: Were you yourself one of the accused or suspects in that matter,  the Goniwe matter?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: Mr Chairperson, that was the impression that I received from Hodgen, that he suspected me as one of the suspects in the case but it never came out in evidence, only later in the Motherwell case.

MR PHOSA: Bear with me please, I'm trying to understand you seriously.  When you were before Mr Hodgen, was he on your side or was he on the opposite side of you?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: He was actually opposing me Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: So why were you there?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: As I have explained, I assisted the legal team of the police in the investigation - the police legal team.

MR PHOSA: Were you helping in the investigation of the Goniwe matter?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: At the stage that you were before Mr Hodgen, was he then ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: He hasn't said he was before him, this is the second time you've said: "At the stage you were before".  He hasn't indicated as far as I know, that he was before him.
	Were you before him?  Was he presiding over any enquiry?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: Sorry, I wasn't using the legal jargon of before, I was ...[inaudible] the literal meaning of being in front of him - no not the legal jargon, were you not in front of him as you're talking?

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, perhaps I can supply some information for the benefit of my learned friend here, which will shorten things here ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: We hope so, will you supply the information?

MR BOOYENS: During the Goniwe inquest Mr Hodgen, the then Acting Attorney General for the Eastern Cape was basically leading the evidence, the police had a legal team representing them, the army had a legal team representing them and national intelligence had a legal team representing them.  And the witness was allocated to assist the legal team consisting of private practitioners instructed by the State Attorney I presume, with their investigations into - in other words, the legal were looking after the interest of the police.  I wasn't trying to answer, I'm just trying to shorten proceedings.

MR PHOSA: No, we'll just ask him to confirm if he agrees with you.  Do you confirm that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: You see, my understanding is that you were officially mentioned as one of the suspects but if I'm wrong just say so.

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: At that stage I had discussions with him in private and he created the impression that I was a suspect and that the security branch was responsible for the death and that I was one of the persons and he didn't have any evidence at his disposal.

MR PHOSA: That's precisely what I was suspecting you were saying.  Just the two of you were talking to each other somewhere with nobody else?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: So what did he say to you about first of all, your possible involvement in the Goniwe matter and later about the Nuremberg situation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: He created the impression with me that the security branch or the police had been responsible for the death of Goniwe and that I was a suspect in the matter.  And then he wished to afford me the opportunity to come to the fore with the truth and I didn't know anything about the Goniwe matter and then he said: "You have to keep in mind the Nuremberg trials that will come" because at that stage the process was already on the go - that the new Government would come to rule, there were elections planned for the next year  and on that basis I already had the perception.

MR PHOSA: That is all that is discussed between you and him about the Goniwe matter and the Nuremberg trial?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR PHOSA: Then, did you have any further discussions with him about Nuremberg?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: No, Mr Chairperson, that is why I'm using the terminology.  That was the terminology that he used, that is what - the term that he used, the word Nuremberg trials and that is why I informed you of this.

MR PHOSA: Now that was 1993?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR PHOSA: Now when did you ever give thought for the first time in your mind about coming forward because the situation you are referring to as I understand it, was just about the Goniwe where you were being wrongly accused?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so Mr Chairperson.

MR PHOSA: So when did you come and think about the present situation where you might possibly come forward and speak yourself out on the situation?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: It was after the completely of my case before appeal where I was found guilty in the Motherwell case.

MR PHOSA: When was that?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That was in June - 27 June that I was found guilty and I was sentenced - that was last year 1996, and I applied on 13 December end of last year.

MR PHOSA: Yes, so what - you didn't apply shortly after your conviction in the Motherwell case?

GIDEON JOHANNES NIEUWOUDT: That is so.

MR PHOSA: At that stage, were you still suspecting the system - the process?