Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-18

MS THABETHE: With regard to the evidence that you've given, you spoke about the fact that you threw a hand grenade into a white car.  Was Elsie present in that car?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I do not remember whether Elsie was present in that car, but where Hapile was, Elsie would be there too.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't generalise Mr Mhlongo.  Either you saw Elsie on that day, or you didn't see her.  We don't want your speculation, we want what you saw and not what you thought because of what had previously happened, did you see Elsie on that day or didn't you see her?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I did not see her.

MS THABETHE: Are you aware of any enquiry that took place regarding Hapile Ndumo and Elsie in your ANC offices?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I do not understand your question.

MS THABETHE: Are you aware of any enquiry that took place with regard to Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena in your ANC offices?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Were you present at that enquiry?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I was not present.

MS THABETHE: So what information did you have about the said enquiry?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: When the enquiry was made I was not present.  I was not involved at all but it happened that I came into contact with those enquiries.

MS THABETHE: My question is, Mr Mhlongo, you have said that you only were aware of such an enquiry having taken place.  Was there any information relayed to you about the said enquiry, as to what was happening there, and what findings were made there with regard to Hapile Ndumo and Elsie?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I have mentioned already that before many things could be done a general order was issued out.  Now I came to know that they were implicated.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that prior to the enquiry that we have already heard evidence both from Mr Mkwanazi and Mr Radebe, as well as the witnesses we have called to support their application, Mr Ngiba and Mr Khumalo, you are saying that a general order was issued before that enquiry was held.  Is that what you are saying?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: That is not what I am telling you.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us then what you want to tell us.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I am saying the general order was issued out after my commander had met with the underground structure that was investigating this incident.  Now I got out of the unit and found the information myself.

MR LAX: Sorry, can I just interpose here.  Are you saying that your commander told you that he had met with his underground structures, who had made an investigation, and that after that you issued the general order?

CHAIRPERSON: And when was that?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was in 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  Mr Mhlongo is it your evidence today then, that you did not, or you were not informed of the findings of that enquiry regarding Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Well, my instructions, Mr Mhlongo, are that they were found not to be guilty of having been spies in that enquiry.  What is your comment to that?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: They were not found guilty where?

MS THABETHE: At the enquiry which took place in the ANC offices, and which enquiry you have just testified that you did not have information of it's findings.

CHAIRPERSON: Please repeat your question, I didn't get it because something distracted me.

MS THABETHE: I was explaining to Mr Mhlongo, he was asking me a question which enquiry, so I was explaining which enquiry.

CHAIRPERSON: Which enquiry did you say you were referring to?

MS THABETHE: I said I was referring to the enquiry where Hapile Ndumo and Elsie were called, in March 1992, which enquiry Mr Mhlongo said he was not aware of its findings.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlongo do you agree with the version that has been given by Ms Mokoena?  That an enquiry that was intended to investigate some allegations that had been levelled against Ms Mokoena and other ladies, some of whom included herself and Ms Ndumo, was held in March '92.  That's her version.  We have also heard a different version from the applicants that the enquiry was held in June 1992.  Are you in a position to assist us in that regard?  Do you know when this enquiry was held?  Was that in March or in June?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Chairperson, my apologies, which enquiries are you referring to now?  The enquiries about Hapile and Elsie, I was not present.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear about that enquiry which was held at a garage where Mr Hlombai was a chairperson of the ANC youth league?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.  I heard about it.  I further heard that they were disciplined.

CHAIRPERSON: Who told you about the enquiry?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was comrade Stanley.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it the one who told you that they also imposed a punishment?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: It was a few weeks after my entrance into the country.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you are saying you came back in February 1992.  So that would actually take you to between January and beginning of February 1992.  Am I correct?  Oh, a few weeks after your entry.  That would take you to March?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you would actually agree with the version given by Ms Mokoena that the enquiry was held in March 1992?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I was not present when the enquiry was held, so therefore I would not agree or disagree.  I do not know when it was held.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were informed by comrade Stanley a few weeks after your entry, and your entry was in February.  It couldn't have been a few months after your entry.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes, it was a few weeks after my entry, so.

CHAIRPERSON: You are in no position to deny, if that is your evidence.  Proceed Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Madam Chair.  Would you say then Mr Mhlongo, that that thorough investigation that you alleged that you did happened after this enquiry, or before this enquiry took place?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Yes, my investigation was conducted after the enquiry.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe are you not referring to a general order.  Were you referring to his specific orders?

MS THABETHE: I was referring to the fact that he said he did a thorough investigation before issuing an order.  So my question to him was the thorough investigation done after the enquiry had been done, or before.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you conduct your own enquiry?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: After they had been given lashes, and before they were killed.

CHAIRPERSON: And what did you own enquiry entail?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: I realised that they were supposed to be killed. They were a poison within the community, and because of what they were doing in town, and they got into Zone 12 at night using cars.

CHAIRPERSON: My question was what did your investigation entail?  How did you conduct your investigation?  What is it that you did in order to come with whatever finding?  I'm not asking you about the findings of your enquiry, I'm asking you about the steps you took in conducting such an enquiry.

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Thank you Chairperson.  My apologies.  I searched for them and I couldn't find them.  When I met them, I was not investigating.  It happened that I saw them.  When I first saw them it was when I took out a grenade and threw it at them.  The second time was in town when the community was harassed.  That was evidence enough to give my unit an order to eliminate them upon sight.

CHAIRPERSON: You call that an investigation?  You are a trained operative.  You call that an investigation?  Is that what you seriously mean by an investigation?

WALTER MUSMUSI MHLONGO: Chairperson, I already told you that I was not investigating at that time.  It so happened, it incidentally happened, that I saw that.  It was part of information.