Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR MALAN: So your instruction from Kloppers to go and get the others, get away from the assault and you also took part then in the assault, is that what you're saying to us?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: Yes, I did not follow his instructions to a certain extent.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you injure or beat Van der Schyff with the baton?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: I wanted to, also to hit, but because I, or by mistake, I wanted to hit the person that was being assaulted and then by mistake I hit Van der Schyff, he was busy to struggle with the person on the ground and then I hit him.

CHAIRPERSON: It was not because you were under the influence of liquor and you could not distinguish the wood for the tree?

GERHARDUS JOHANNES DIEDERICKS: No, that was not the case.

MR DREYER: Mr Chairman, may I just ask a question in connection with the fact that he was ignoring a specific order, if I
may, in respect of the question put by the committee (indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: Well he disobeyed Kloppers' order, not Oelofse's order.

MR DREYER: Yes, that is so, Mr Chairman... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: A specific order to go and remove these people from the assault.   It has nothing to do with Oelofse's original order.

MR DREYER: Yes, that is so, but I just wanted to try and get some relation between a minor order and obviously a very major order of starting a revolution, but if the Court feels that it's unnecessary, I won't press it.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think - I think it's too tenuous, I don't think we should allow you to ask questions on that.

MR DREYER: As you please, Mr Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: You can stand down, sir.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Knoetze?

MR KNOETZE: I call Mr Van der Schyff, Mr Chairman.

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: (sworn states)

MR KNOETZE: Mr Van der Schyff, you submitted an amended return application, which is Exhibit 5?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That's correct.

MR KNOETZE: To request the committee to amend your written application in this fashion?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That's correct.

MR KNOETZE: Where did you grow up?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Randfontein, Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: Can you tell us about your family?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I had a brother and a sister, a mother and a father.

MR KNOETZE: What occupation was your father?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: He was a plumber.

MR KNOETZE: And what was his political views?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Nothing, none.

MR KNOETZE: And your mother's political views?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: None.

MR KNOETZE: And where did you go to primary school?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: In Randfontein.

MR KNOETZE: And your secondary education

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Randfontein.

MR KNOETZE: And the white community, what kind of people did they consist of?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: It was a very conservative community.

MR KNOETZE: And what were that community's political views, mainly, the people you had contact with?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Their view was negative towards the blacks, let's say they didn't accept them at all, specifically the ANC/SACP alliance.

MR KNOETZE: Were you already aware of the security situation within the country?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That's correct.

MR KNOETZE: And that there was a state of emergency?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That's correct.

MR KNOETZE: And that had to do with the battle between the whites and the non-whites?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That's correct.

MR KNOETZE: Did you do military service?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That's correct.

MR KNOETZE: Where?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: 1 South African Infantry Battalion in Bloemfontein and later I was transferred to 61 Battalion Group in South West Africa.

MR KNOETZE: And what service did you complete there?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Border service.

MR KNOETZE: Was that service in the war against Swapo?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That's correct.

MR KNOETZE: And what was your personal opinion of the army's activities at that stage?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: They played an important role for the country, for South Africa, in order to keep the enemy outside of the country and not allow the enemy to come into the country to commit acts of terror.

MR KNOETZE: Can you just speak a little bit slower, they're interpreting.   Did you agree with these views in this war?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, I agreed with it.

MR KNOETZE: After your military service, did you attend military camps?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That's correct, I did.

MR KNOETZE: And did you do it voluntarily, or was it difficult for you to join in those activities?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: It was my duty to attend South African Defence Force camps.

MR KNOETZE: Is it also correct that you also were a police reservist?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That's correct.

MR KNOETZE: Could you just explain to them when?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Since 1985 up until 1989.

MR KNOETZE: Does this mean that you did this while you were still a scholar?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That's correct.

MR KNOETZE: And did you receive any tertiary education?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, I worked at Transnet, I received training there.

MR KNOETZE: And did you qualify there, did you graduate there?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Yes, I did graduate there.

MR KNOETZE: Who did you work for?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Transnet.

MR KNOETZE: What was your political views with regards to the security situation in the early 90's?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I became more and more involved with the right politics, because I believed the right-wing people were the only people to stop the ANC/SACP alliance, which was to take place in the 1994 elections.

MR KNOETZE: Did you join any political parties?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I did.

MR KNOETZE: Who did you join?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I joined the AWB.

MR KNOETZE: How did it come about that you joined them?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: I became interested in all their objectives and the ones they submitted.

MR KNOETZE: Which of their policy principles attracted you?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: The fact that we could govern ourselves and also the piece of ground, your own country, a place where you can have your own schools, own education.

MR KNOETZE: And what was your view with regards to the policy principles of the ANC/SACP then?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Their principle was to take over the country within all their power, and as a member of the AWB it was unacceptable to me.

MR KNOETZE: And what was your view with regards to the policy of the PAC?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: The PAC's policy was more or less the same and it was also unacceptable to me as a member of the AWB.

MR KNOETZE: Which position did you have once you joined the AWB?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Assistant Area Commandant.

MR KNOETZE: How did it come about that you became an assistant area commandant?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: Chief Commandant Klopper and Deon Martin graduated me.

MR KNOETZE: Is this after you wrote an exam?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: And this examination, did you have to write it after you've had to study the book as it was submitted here, which is known as "Phase 1"?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR KNOETZE: And did you also agree with the AWB's policy which is contained within that book?

MARTHINUS LODEWICKES VAN DER SCHYFF: That's correct.