Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1998-01-20

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, we are just trying to determine if he wasn't on one of the courses, we are trying to get the correct document Mr Chairman.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, that is not quite correct, we know he was on a course then, I am just finding the reference, trying to find the reference for it.  It is in a P27 document, we are just going through them right now, Mr Chairman.  He was at a course at Hammanskraal at the college during that year, we are just establishing the correct dates Your Worship.

ADV MEMANI: My Lord, there must be order here My Lord.  I am cross-examining and if Mr Du Plessis wants to re-examine, he can re-examine.  We can't have a situation where Mr Visser and Du Plessis just jump in any time they want to do so.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, it is at page 68 and it is Exhibit P27/6 and you will find an entry there it reads 18th of May 1987, Human Resources Management and then it goes College, Hammanskraal.  I am not sure whether this is of any assistance to either Mr Memani or my learned friend, Mr du Plessis.  Exhibit 27/6 in Bundle B Mr Chairman, and it is at page 68 of Bundle B.

ADV MEMANI: But Mr Chairman, this really is not a justified interruption.  May I proceed Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: If there is a document that shows where he is, we will save a lot of time without speculating whether he was on leave and things?

ADV MEMANI: I am not speculating My Lord, I am cross-examining and if I am wrong, he is entitled to re-examine as indeed he is referring you to a false document.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on Mr Memani.

ADV MEMANI: Mr Khoja, if I may refer you to the pocket book, you did not work with Mr Ngo until, or you did not sign his pocket book until the 20th of January 1988.  This is now at page, you signature appears for the first time at page 48.

CHAIRPERSON: That is not quite correct, it appears again for the first time,it appears earlier for the earlier period when he was working with him.

ADV MEMANI: That is assumed to be understood My Lord.

UNKNOWN: Yes, even again where there is a signature again, he was posted again.  He is another member who went there, it is possible that he as at Unit 19 at that time.

ADV MEMANI: At page 47, the entry just before your signature there is Tuesday, 1988, 01.  I don't know what the date is there, it says that he reported on duty at Unit 19 and he was doing camp duty.

CHAIRPERSON: The date is the 19th.

ADV MEMANI: I am indebted to His Lordship.  Do you see that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I do.

ADV MEMANI: And do you see that on Wednesday, the entry at page 44 I think it is the 18th, he was on duty at Unit 19?  Do you see that?

UNKNOWN: You say on the 18th?

ADV MEMANI: You see the top of page 42, can you see that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I see that.

ADV MEMANI: I beg your pardon My Lord, I was looking at page 44.  It is Wednesday, I think the 18th or the 13th.  It must be the 13th.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I do see it.

ADV MEMANI: He was working at Unit 19.

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: And as from 30th September, that is now at page 39, he reported at Unit 19.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I see that.

ADV MEMANI: And he was obviously then not on a course, isn't it?

UNKNOWN: The way it is, it shows that he was at work at Unit 19.

ADV MEMANI: Now we see again that at entry 113, this is page 72 on 22 January 1988.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 72 of what?

ADV MEMANI: We are now in the occurrence book, My Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: Occurrence book, thank you.  Entry number?

ADV MEMANI: 113.

UNKNOWN: 113 refers to the 21st.

ADV MEMANI: The 22nd of January 1988 according to the pocket book that I have.  Oh, yes, lower down yes,  it is 23 January 1988, do you have that?

UNKNOWN: I am still looking for it sir

ADV MEMANI: Did I say 113?

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I am totally confused.  Are we in the pocket book or are we in the occurrence book, page 72?  That is how I understand it Mr Chairman.  The date there on top is 25 January 1988.

CHAIRPERSON: If you look at entry 113, you will see it is under the date, Monday 23rd of January 1988.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV MEMANI: It must be the 23rd of January.

UNKNOWN: May you please give me your copy because I don't find it in my copy.

ADV MEMANI: I think if one looks at the date on the top, it is Friday, January 22.  Then the Monday must be 25 January 1988.

CHAIRPERSON: You have the original in your possession, you can look at that.

UNKNOWN: May you please be slow so that I will be able to give you the correct response, so be a little bit slower.
	Yes, I found it sir.

ADV MEMANI: Now, according to that entry Mr Ngo went to Unit 19 base to complete certain forms?

UNKNOWN: That is correct.

ADV MEMANI: Were you a member of Unit 19?

UNKNOWN: No, I was not a member of Unit 19.  I was the supervisor at the barracks.
	I was working under Station Commissioner of Pretoria Central.

ADV MEMANI: And you were not Ngo's Commander as you said, but his Commander was in Unit 19, wasn't he?

UNKNOWN: You must understand me well.  If Mr Memani was to understand this correctly is that Ngo was transferred from Unit 19, I was saying his pay point was at Unit 19 and what I would say is a change.  He would work under my supervision, it is my work to ensure that this person does his work so that when his Commander is not there in charge of this person, I should just leave him doing whatever he likes.  He was working under my command.

ADV MEMANI: Are we agreed that you were not his Commander but you were just the day to day supervisor?

UNKNOWN: The way you state that, Commander and supervisor are doing the same thing.  The supervisor commands and the Commander commands.  If you ask me of the Commanding Officer, if you ask me of a Commander, the Commanding Officer is in Unit 19, I was his Commander at the barracks.

ADV MEMANI: But each time there was a disciplinary problem with him, you would refer the matter to Unit 19, isn't it?

UNKNOWN: I would refer him after I have taken some steps of discipline.  After I have reported his conduct in the occurrence book.

ADV MEMANI: Now, let's go to entry 142, dated 29 January 1988, at page 74.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I do.

ADV MEMANI: It may not have been brought to your attention, but there was evidence that Mr Ngo applied to join the Security Branch and Captain Loots testified that Mr Ngo went to Kompol only once.

UNKNOWN: I would not say his application was saying he was going to the Security Branch, he was just making application for a transfer.  I don't know as to whether he was making a transfer to come back to Bloemfontein or to go to a particular place, but the way I see is that he was applying for a transfer.

ADV MEMANI: Now Mr Ngo says he was applying for a transfer to the Security Branch.  Bokaba says that he accompanied him to Security Branch only once.  Do you want to dispute that?

UNKNOWN: I would not dispute that because he did not inform me that he was applying where or to be transferred to Security Branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you putting it that Mr Ngo went to the Security Head Office only once?

ADV MEMANI: No.  I am saying is he disputing the evidence by Bokaba and Ngo that he was applying for a transfer to the Security Branch.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you were saying something about going there once?

ADV MEMANI: Well, if I did mention it, it was not in the essence of the question.  The essence of the question is is he disputing that Ngo, what Ngo and Bokaba said that when he applied for a transfer it was not for Bloemfontein, but it was for Security Branch in Pretoria.

UNKNOWN: I would not dispute something I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you read your occurrence book, you were in charge of the occurrence book, weren't you?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I read the occurrence book.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, if you look at page 105 of the occurrence book, on Wednesday the 5th of April, do you see it?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I do.