Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-08-30

MR LAX: I think the thrust of his question was subtly different as well.  He said essentially that you didn't take any notice of those visits to any great extent, that's how he put it if I understood him correctly?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Yes, it is as he put the question, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: So you're confirming Mr Botha that whatever detainees told magistrates, they in fact were never taken seriously, that the security branch has complied with the requirements of the politicians at the time i.e. to go through certain processes but at the end of the day no impact of any sort was made on your conduct.

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Please repeat the last part of the question?

MR GORDHAN: At the end of the day reports from magistrates, reports from district surgeons, complaints from the detainees made no difference to the conduct of the special branch?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: Mr Botha, how much of your attitude, which I'm going to come back to a little later and your conduct is actually related to the fact that you in fact didn't want apartheid to end and you didn't want negotiations to work?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: The question has two parts, the first one I can answer.  Yes at all times we had to protect the government, keep them in the chair and with regard to the negotiations not succeeding, we did not have any say in that but years afterwards we found out that we were sold out by a government who negotiated our lives away and did not have the courage to make a stand at the negotiations table but this was years afterwards.  Yes at all costs we had to maintain the government in power.

MR GORDHAN: Now I'm putting it to you Mr Botha that is not maintaining the government in power, I'm saying to you that your goal in life at that time and perhaps even now went beyond and that is that you wanted to sustain a system of racial superiority and domination, called above that?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: No Chairperson, not personally.  My personal ...(intervention)

MR GORDHAN: Why then do you say that the government sold you out?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, if I may explain, the question - once again this is a double edged question, the one is personal and the question is why do I think that the government sold us out.  The first, I was part of a system that through the years through birth up to 1990, with the release of Mr Nelson Mandela which was the beginning of the negotiation process, the National Party was in power in this country and separate development or apartheid was a way of life, it was the order of the day.  The victims of that system, many of those people are in the country today.  We ourselves are the victims of that system.  I may have personally felt otherwise about certain of the government's political reasons and motivations and consequently I feel different about it and I say I feel that the government sold out this country with the negotiations, that is my personal opinion.

MR GORDHAN: Let's leave that for a political debate at some stage.  Mr Botha, as a result of all your admissions, do you feel today any remorse or regret or do you feel it opportune to apologise to the families and individuals concerned for the manner in which you conducted yourself in murdering people, assaulting people and whatever else you've done?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Chairperson, in hindsight if we can turn the clock back to where we have started, everybody, not only the victims and the victims' families of these tragic events, we the offenders are also victims of the system and as such the whole country is a victim, directly or indirectly and one wants forgiveness for what one has done and that is why we apply for amnesty.  The reconciliation which has to come must come from both sides and that is why we request amnesty, we want to be forgiven for what we have done and the reasons for what we have done are supported by going through that whole process and ask and in repetition, two or three years we had applied to bring out those memories and just as it is a sensitive matter for the victims and their families, it is the same for us.  Every time we are taken back to the scene and back to the decision which was taken.  One cannot close down here now and say let's continue with the new future but one thing I can say of this process is that everybody has to be honest and this process has brought us closer to God and only He can forgive at the end of the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gordhan, would this be a convenient time to take a short tea adjournment?

MR GORDHAN: Yes, sure.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short tea adjournment, approximately twenty minutes and then we will resume after that. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Botha, I'd just remind you that you are still under your former oath?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: (s.u.o.)

MR GORDHAN: (cont)
	Mr Botha, when I was arrested and finally after some hours taken to C.R. Swart Police Station, I think to the 14th Floor, I requested to make a phone call to my lawyer to inform him of my detention.  I was told that no such thing would be allowed.

MR VISSER: Is there a ..(indistinct) that this is the witness who told him that, Chairperson?

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, I imagine that the security branch works as a disciplined unit and I'm saying I didn't say that Mr Botha said that to me, I said I was told that no such thing would be allowed.  Who told me that I don't know, there were many comings and goings from the office in which I was kept because at some stage it might have been the intention of the special branch to abduct me, kidnap me?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I would not know, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: Why wasn't I formally detained in terms of Section 29, given the usual notice, warnings etc. etc. upon my arrival at C.R. Swart Police Station?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I would not know, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Gordhan, perhaps before we proceed?
	Were you at any stage - I know you're not giving evidence now, but were you at any stage formally detained in terms of Section 29?

MR GORDHAN: Only late in the afternoon of the 13th after having been kept the whole night in an office.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you were taken to Newcastle?

MR GORDHAN: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed.

MR GORDHAN: Mr Botha, are you aware of the fact that your present National Deputy Commissioner, Mr Morgan Chetty, actually made enquiries about my whereabouts sometime earlier on the day on the 13th July?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I'm not aware of that, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: Well did you know that it was him that finally told my family that I'm in fact alive and in your hands?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I was not aware of that, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: Are you aware of the fact that he was reprimanded by either you or others in the senior ranks of the security branch for having disclosed the fact that I was alive and in your hands?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: I did not know about that, Chairperson.

MR GORDHAN: You have not said in the evidence you've given now but in previous evidence before the Committee, you've indicated that Mr Charles Ndaba gave you information about the flat in Brickfield Road, is that true?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: That is correct.

MR GORDHAN: Who was the person who had the flat under surveillance on your behalf?

HENDRIK JOHANNES PETRUS BOTHA: Is this relevant Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know, what flat is this?  I wasn't involved in the previous hearing.

MR GORDHAN: Chairperson, under this underground operation a number of premises were used.

CHAIRPERSON: Sort of, safe houses type of thing?