Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

CHAIRPERSON: It may very well be that he has in fact incriminated other members of the AWB to the police, and that would entitle you possibly, if you so wish, to put questions to this witness around that point.

MR DREYER: As the Court pleases, Mr Chairman.

MR DREYER: Mr
Badenhorst, I understand what you said and it's clear that you do not know the oath word by word, but you know that this oath entails that you do everything for "volk" and "vaderland", and you do it to further the goals of the movement?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes, that is what it's about.

MR DREYER: But you made a conclusion from that that it's also expected from you that you will not incriminate other members of the AWB, and especially commanders.

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: That is correct.

MR DREYER: But if we look at this oath, did you not, in that declaration of that oath, refer to Mr Martin and Mr Kloppers, they are your direct commanders, they are your direct commanders?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: At that stage they have already been arrested, they have already made their own statements, so I did not incriminate them, they have already incriminated themselves.

MR DREYER: But you did not see their statements, so you do not know to what extent they incriminated themselves?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: No, Mr Chairperson, the detectives beforehand said that I was the last person, all your friends have said or spoken.   I did not believe them until Chief Commandant Kloppers and Van der Schyff told me that they know everything, that I can talk.

MR DREYER: But if they said to you that they know everything, why didn't you not, at that stage, because you know it wouldn't have helped, why didn't you make use of that opportunity to, and then say that Phil Kloppers said that he received the order from Oelofse?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Mr Chairperson, I can understand it, like I said beforehand we knew what we are going to say if we were arrested by the police.

MR DREYER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DREYER

CHAIRPERSON: Did you think that, because these other people were arrested, you should no longer abide with the oath that you had taken, and then incriminate them?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Mr Chairperson, I took the oath, or I did not violate the oath, because I did not incriminate anybody else or made known a name, and all the other people have already incriminated themselves in this case and I knew that they've already made a statement, because the police told me that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well it is one thing to mention the name of somebody, it's quite another thing to incriminate him.   If you're incriminating him, you go on to telling the police or the Court what he actually did and so on and so forth?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Mr Chairperson, at that stage I could not remember what each one did at the scene of the crime, it was finer details that I could not remember under the interrogation.

MR DREYER: Mr Badenhorst, for the second time you referred it and the first time I did not follow it up, you said that you made these statements beforehand and you all agreed on what you're going to say, you talked about a cover story that you all agreed on.   What was this about, did you plan to lie and what was the plan to lie about?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Mr Chairperson, according to me it was to protect certain people and not to make known the plan of the revolution.

MR DREYER: Are you saying that the cover story at a previous discussion that you were free to say everything except to name Oelofse, because everything was said except Oelofse's name was mentioned?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: No, Mr Chairperson, everything was not mentioned in this statement of mine.   What was not made is regarding the revolution that would have started and the resistance that the "boere" would have given, or... (intervention).

MR DREYER: So that is the part that you would not mention, the part about the revolution?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes, that's the part that I did not say.

CHAIRPERSON: You are not having any further questions, are you...

MR DREYER: No, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...via me?   Mr Badenhorst, thank you, you are excused, you can stand down.   You can stand down.

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, I see it's almost one o'clock at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well we have... (intervention).

MR PRINSLOO: I don't whether you're going to have the lunch adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's go on until - let's see how far we can go.

MR PRINSLOO: I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Let us proceed and see how far we can go.   We are getting worried that we will not be able to finish this matter unless we accelerate our pace.

MR PRINSLOO: The applicant, Mr Andre Visser.

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: (confirms to speak truth)

CHAIRPERSON: Is this (indistinct)?

MR PRINSLOO: Apart from this one, there's one more from my side, Mr Diedericks, then Van der Schyff remains for Mr Knoetze.   	Honourable Chairperson, on page 60 of the application of this applicant, I would like to make an amendment.   It's paragraph 4 of page 60, approximately seven lines from the bottom, it says that
"The real McCoy is..."
and it must be put in there that:-
"...we will start to work, `ons moet begin werk'", and later at Martin's house an order was given to set up a roadblock."
	Then page 61, paragraph 6, the word "ons" must be deleted and "Van der Schyff and I", or "ek en Van der Schyff" must be put in there, that is page 61, paragraph 6, "ons" must be replaced with "ek en Van der Schyff", "ek en Van der Schyff" must be inserted.

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct)?

MR PRINSLOO: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: (Indistinct)?

MR PRINSLOO: Are you referring to page 61, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: Just the word "ons" must be deleted.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR PRINSLOO: And then it's substituted by words "ek en Van der Schyff het na Jaco Badenhorst se huis vertrek", it remains the same, just the word "ons" to be deleted.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Visser, is it correct that with regards to this specific case you were arrested by the police and prosecuted in the High Court, together with your fellow applicants, and you were found guilty to several charges of murder, as we can see in the speech of Judge Marais and you got the death sentence?   Is it also correct that later the case was taken back to the Appeal Court and you were given another sentence?   What was that sentence?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Lifelong sentence.

MR PRINSLOO: And now you're applying for amnesty with regards to all those charges?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Visser, did you join the AWB?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And with regards to the date when this act was committed, when did you join the AWB?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: About a week, almost two weeks before that incident took place.

MR PRINSLOO: And at that stage you did not yet have a uniform?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: No.

MR PRINSLOO: Commandant Kloppers, do you know him?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, we worked together for 18 years at the gold mines, so we knew each other well.

MR PRINSLOO: Who recruited you to join the AWB?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Kloppers himself recruited me.

MR PRINSLOO: Did he convince you to join the AWB, or how did you join?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, he convinced me it was the right thing to do and that there's problems within the country and that it would be a good thing to join the AWB.

MR PRINSLOO: At that stage, were you known, did you know what the principles were of the AWB and what they stood for?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, he taught me and he told me what the AWB stands for and what their ideology was.

MR PRINSLOO: And did you agree with all of that?

ANDRE FRANCOIS VISSER: Yes, I did, completely.