Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-21

MR KAHANOVITZ: Maybe he is lucky?  So the following page also, there is a number of references to projects in Zimbabwe.  I mustn't ask you about those?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.  I have no knowledge.

MR KAHANOVITZ: All right, the following page, page 11, the 14th of March, under the "things to do" heading, about in the middle, you will see it says
"... Derek, internal list of targets."

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I see that.

MR KAHANOVITZ: What do you know about the internal target list?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: As I have already said, I didn't have access to that information structure, and I don't know about an internal target list.  I would say that there were prominent figures, priority figures identified within the structures.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes, but who were these priority figures that were identified, what names can you remember?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Mr Omar ...

MR KAHANOVITZ: Apart from the ones that we know about already in respect of the applications which you have made.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I think the entire top structure of the ANC.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And the ECC?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: And the ECC.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Right, and you were also involved in investigating the Natal Indian Congress, isn't that correct, NIC?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: I cannot remember.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You cannot remember?  COSATU?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: We did try to investigate COSATU.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You were interested amongst others, in Jay Naidoo?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No, not Jay Naidoo, I will get to that later.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, who was Derek, do you know?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Chairperson, today I know that they are referring to the person who dealt with the intelligence structure at the CCB, but I never knew him, I never had any meetings with him.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Mr Burger, do I understand your evidence correctly that what we are really talking about is that there was a list in existence that contained the names of the type of people that Region 6 of the CCB might want to focus their attention on?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That is not the usual, or my understanding of a target list, is a list where, which contains the names of people who are targets, not people how might become targets, like a hit-list?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.  I understand what you say, I take your point.

CHAIRPERSON: Because otherwise you could have just had a list that is pages and pages long of names, if it is potential targets?  It could have been thousands of names on it?  It is not much point in having a list of that nature?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Let's take an example, you have a member of Region 6 who has been allocated a province, you are dealing with a person that of themselves, has little or no understanding of who is who and what is what in the ANC, the UDF, the ECC and so on and so forth, correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: To ask Mr Calla Botha, at the time that he came out of Brixton Murder and Robbery "tell me, give me names of who the people are that you should concentrate on", he would not himself know, he doesn't have that kind of political training and understanding, correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: So he would need to be told "you go and follow this person"?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.  And he was also supposed to use his infrastructure as soon as it was established, he must try and gather his intelligence through those structures.

MR KAHANOVITZ: As I understood your evidence-in-chief, Mr Botha and Mr Maree in fact to some extent, built up their own structures, is that correct?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: For instance, let's take Mr Maree.  Did Mr Maree develop a network of non-aware members who were going to assist him?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: He was supposed to do that and as far as I can remember, he didn't really succeed in doing that.  He did try to recruit people in Natal and furthermore he was also utilised abroad, outside of the Republic.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You see, on Mr van Zyl's version, he makes one phone call to I cannot remember if it was his brother or his brother-in-law, he says "I am looking for someone with a criminal background, give me a name", he goes and meets that person and within the process of a week, he's got his first unaware member?  Are you telling us that in Maree's case, after months and months and months, he cannot manage to recruit one unaware member in Natal?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Chairperson, as I have tried to explain, I cannot remember whether he perhaps succeeded in that.  It may be that he succeeded in having one or two in the recruitment stage.  It sounds very simple to simply pick up the phone and then you have it, but in practice it doesn't work that easily.

MR KAHANOVITZ: I can understand that, but after several months, doesn't it strike you as strange?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Mr Maree, part of his tasks were aimed externally.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well, now we are starting to get somewhere, because Maree was mainly working in Namibia, isn't that so, which is why he wasn't busy developing contacts in Natal?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: No or yes?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, he didn't primarily work in Namibia.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Well, where, what other countries was he working in outside of the country?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Foreign projects those, and I don't know if I should answer the question.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You have to answer the question.

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I don't.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Are you refusing to answer the question?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: You are refusing the answer the question?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: When it comes to external things?

MR KAHANOVITZ: Yes?  Why are you refusing to answer the question?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Because I don't think that falls within the Commission's ambit.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But you have come to tell us what the people in Region 6 were doing, and now you are telling us "sorry, as soon as somebody from Region 6 leaves the country, I am not willing to tell you what they were doing"?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No, I am not going to.

MR KAHANOVITZ: How is the Committee supposed to know then what the activities of Region 6 of the CCB were?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Because we also operated internally, mainly within the borders, and also externally.  As far as the foreign projects are concerned, I think we have a lot of to-ing and fro-ing and that is the stance which the Defence Force is sticking to.

MR KAHANOVITZ: But as you pointed out, Region 6 was not only, or let me put this another way, Region 6 members were certainly not only operating within South Africa?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: No.

MR KAHANOVITZ: In fact, in the case of Mr Maree, his main focus was outside of South Africa?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Now, Mr Botha, what success or otherwise did he have in the development of his infrastructure?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: According to the briefings he gave me, there were certain people who he had recruited.  I don't know whether it was one or two, I cannot remember.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Is this in the Transvaal?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: Yes.

MR KAHANOVITZ: Did I understand your evidence-in-chief to be that he is working on the Roland White project, he gets into trouble, gets put on ice, months and months pass until he gets a call on his pager to come to this meeting concerned with the Early Learning Centre, and between those events, he does nothing?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: And in fact, after the Early Learning Centre, he does nothing as well?

DANIEL F DU TOIT BURGER: That is also correct.

MR KAHANOVITZ: He literally spends then a few hours, or a handful of days, let's rather say, working for Region 6?  The rest of the time he is at home, drawing a salary?