Amnesty Hearings — Port Elizabeth — 1997-09-24

MR PHOSA: Now, you have been talking about the role of these two gentlemen, Mthimkhulu and Madaka, and their stature in the community and what the community was doing in response to their commands virtually.
	But I gather that there were other leaders in the community.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Your Honour.

MR PHOSA: Can you name some of them at that time?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Nkosele Jack I can remember.

MR PHOSA: Who else?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I can also remember Jan Tholo.  A gentleman by the name of Manaxe.  Those are the names I can think of at the moment.

MR PHOSA: And as far as I know, they were no push overs, they were highly regarded in the community?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Your Honour.

MR PHOSA: And eliminating Mthimkhulu and this other gentleman, wouldn't have eliminated the leadership?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, it wouldn't have, but I have to be honest when I say this, I regarded Mr Mthimkhulu as the more radical person in the organisation.

MR PHOSA: Or maybe what you were asked earlier on by one of the Committee members, Mr Sandi, is relevant.  Was Mr Jack one of those who were also being considered for consideration?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I don't think so Your Honour.

ADV SANDI: Was Jan Tholo ever considered for elimination?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I can't remember that.

ADV SANDI: What about  Lulama Fisele Owen Bangani, does the name ring a bell to you?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, it does ring a bell Your Honour, I can't remember him.  I am trying to place the names that I can remember specifically.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you spell that name?

ADV SANDI: The name will be on Bundle B, the various statements in the bundle.  It starts from page 1 23 to 126.

MR PHOSA: I am trying to deal with the background, and let's just finish that quickly.  In so far as you say that leaders have experienced the violence here and the violent conditions, let me ask you again, whether you don't agree with me that the life of a policeman, even if not a Security Policeman, is a tough one in a country like South Africa?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, Your Honour.

ADV SANDI: Mr Phosa, maybe before you go on with that, can we just eliminate the thing about Owen Bangani.  Did you - do you remember meeting Owen Bangani in detention during the time Mthimkhulu was also in detention?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I cannot recall that now, but if he says that is the case, then it is so.

ADV SANDI: I said the statement by Owen Bangani is in Bundle B, page 126.  I am not sure if your lawyer brought your attention to the allegation by this gentleman.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I believe that he said to me that this person had alleged that I had assaulted him.

ADV SANDI: No, he said during the time that they were in detention with Mthimkhulu, as they were about to be released, you suggested that you should get them something to eat.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I deny, well, I can't deny it that it was impossible, but I cannot now per se remember the incident.

ADV SANDI: He then goes on to say that you asked them if they wanted to get anything to eat and they all said they wanted some food.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I can't remember it Your Honour.

ADV SANDI: He also says you sent one black policeman who came back a few minutes later, and they were given this food to eat, hamburgers, orange juice, that is mentioned at page 4 of the statement.

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I see that it is alleged, Your Honour, it is possible.

ADV SANDI: It is possible that during the time Mthimkhulu was in detention, you got him some food from the shop, is that what you are saying?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: According to the statement I have drawn your attention to, the deponent goes on to say that before the food was given to them, it went to your office for about 15 minutes before they got it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Your Honour, I don't have any knowledge of this.

ADV SANDI: You would not deny that, would you?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Well, I can't, because I can't remember it.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  You may proceed Mr Phosa.

MR PHOSA: Well, not only that, now that we are dealing with it, it will be the most natural thing that the food must first come to you, not straight from the shop to them?  It had to come to you?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, on many occasions I wasn't there.

MR PHOSA: No, I am working on the assumption that it was you who said it was possible, if you had sent someone to go and get food, it will be most natural for security reasons to come via you?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, that he would have brought the food and the change to me, that is quite possible.

MR PHOSA: So, what I am trying to say is the route had to come via whoever had given instructions for it to be sent, if he was there?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Well, I could have also said give them the required food.

MR PHOSA: You see, one of the things that you were worried about was that there should be no access to people in detention by people outside, isn't it?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: And also they should not be given anything without your knowledge as the senior members of the Security Police?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: So for that reason as well then, anything coming from outside, normally should come via you if you are there?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Well, you are probably referring to the Security Branch in general, because there were no instructions that anything that was to be given to the detainees, had to come via me, that was given to them.

MR PHOSA: No, no, no, I am not talking about a general instruction to other people.  If you are the policemen, were the senior person on duty, and you send another policeman, a junior policeman to go and get something from the shop, especially an African policeman, surely he was supposed to come via you and show it to you?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, no, not at all Your Honour.

MR PHOSA: Wasn't there the danger that being an African, he might just surreptitiously push something passed?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: No, Your Honour, I never had a problem in this regard.

MR PHOSA: Did you read Mr Bobelo's statement?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, I did.

MR PHOSA: Did you hear what he said that he had a problem about clothing he had fetched?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR PHOSA: You wouldn't know whether that is true or false?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I don't know.

MR PHOSA: But according to what you say it appears he had a problem because he was superseding instructions by bringing the clothing, clean clothing for Mthimkhulu?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you understand that?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Yes, I hear what he is saying, but I can't comment on that.

MR PHOSA: Anyway, I have a bit of a puzzle.  As you have been asked by Committee member, Mr Sandi, Adv Sandi, I get the impression that you were just told about Mr Bangani, though it is called Bangani, now you have just told about it, showed it, you did not yourself read to see what this man said about the Police?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: Your Honour, I read many pages at my legal representatives, but the allegations of Bangani were made, or the allegations made by Bangani, were put to me.

MR PHOSA: I think I prematurely made a statement the other day regarding one of the previous witnesses, yes the first one, Mr Erasmus.  I said I felt that they had done proper preparation for this matter.  Now can I say the same with regard to you and your counsel and Attorney?
	Did you have enough time to prepare?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: I believe we had Your Honour.

MR PHOSA: Did you know that you are dealing with important documents?

HERMANUS BAREND DU PLESSIS: That is correct, yes.