Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1977-08-07

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: On the following day Mkhize came to my place to try and find out as to why we attacked because we had taken, apparently a radio was taken but I wasn't aware of that.  He asked about the radio and I told him I didn't know anything about the radio.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: I think it was at Rosemary's place.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: I don't remember whether Rosemary is Rosemary Mapumulo or these are two different houses.

ADV DE JAGER: According to the papers before us, she's made a statement and her full names are Rosemary Tuli Mtuli, Letuli, Rosemary Tuli Letuli.

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: Xhosa, no translation.

ADV DE JAGER: And she was staying at 1863 KwaMakhuta.

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: I think that's the same person, I just don't remember quite well but I would agree it could be the same person.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Mkhize comes to ask you about the radio that was taken from Rosemary's place, tell us what happened then.

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: And there was a verbal altercation, he said he wanted the radio because he had received a complaint and I told him that I knew nothing about the radio.  I asked Bheki as to whether he knew anything about the radio and I told him to take out the radio because we were going to be arrested for some things that we didn't know.  At a later stage Bheki took the radio out and gave it to Mkhize and Mkhize took the radio, I think he took it back to Rosemary's house.  There was relative calm thereafter.

MR SHEMBE: ...(inaudible) Rosemary's place, did you assault or did you attack her personally?  Did you make any assault or attack on her?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: I don't remember what happened to Rosemary.  I remember seeing her but I continued to chase my opponent.  The last time I saw her she was closing the door and I kicked the door.  Maybe I broke the door but I continued to chase my opponent.  I don't know what happened to Rosemary thereafter.  I saw Mkhize coming and looking for the radio, that is all that happened at Rosemary's place.

ADV SANDI: ...(inaudible) say he did to the door?

CHAIRPERSON: He kicked and broke the door.

ADV SANDI: He kicked.

INTERPRETER: He said he kicked the door and the door might probably have broken down, he's not positive or sure about that aspect.

MR SHEMBE: Now Mr Hlengwa, I understand that we are through with this issue of Letuli.  There is another count whereby you killed Zwane, Gamla Zwane, can you tell us - can explain to us as to how did that come about? ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) no don't do that.  First of all tell him when did this happen, where did it happen and so on.

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: Xhosa, no translation.

MR SHEMBE: Mr Hlengwa, Bheki Patrick Zwane, is it correct that he was one of your friends?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: Yes, that is true.

MR SHEMBE: Is it also correct that you were in the same party with him?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: That's correct.

MR SHEMBE: But his death came about through you?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: That is correct.

MR SHEMBE: When was that?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: It happened between the 27th and the 28th of April.

MR SHEMBE: How did it ...(intervention)

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: April 28th.

MR SHEMBE: Of which year?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: Xhosa, no translation.

MR SHEMBE: Of which year?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: 1990.

MR SHEMBE: Tell us then ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Okay, so it was about two weeks after you've chased Langa and after you've been at Rosemary's house?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: That is correct I would say.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us, where did you kill Zwane?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: I killed him at the same section where I stay, I shot him.  I shot him in the street, not in the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it during the day or at night?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: It was broad daylight.

MR SHEMBE: Who was also there when you shot Bheki Zwane?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: There were a lot of people.  I do not know them by names but there were a lot of people.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: I was alone.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was Zwane with?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: He was all by himself.  We were drinking there.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: Yes, it was a joint or a shebeen.

MR SHEMBE: ...(inaudible) house or at the street?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: He died outside at the street.

MR SHEMBE: At the street or you were from drinking at the house?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: He died on the street.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say we were drinking, who is we?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: There were a lot of people drinking.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) drinking there as well?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: Zwane was not present at that time when we were drinking.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) your shooting him occurred on the street?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: When I shot Bheki Patrick Zwane it was a mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell us what mistake it was.

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: It was a mistake.  I had a mind that Bheki was selling me out to my opponents, I was not sure but I did not want my fears to be confirmed but I realised after I had shot him that it was a mistake on my part.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) at any rate before you talk about what happened after you shot him, tell us what led you to shoot him?  You thought he was selling you out to your opponents so what happened then?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: I had a suspicion that he was going to sell me out ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) to that.

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: I'm explaining that Bheki was shot by mistake, I can't explain as to how he was shot because I think my mind was disturbed at the time.

ADV DE JAGER: Let's now get it clear, you had a suspicion that he was selling you out to your opponents.

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: ...(inaudible) drinking in a shebeen?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: Yes, I was drinking.

ADV DE JAGER: You walked out of the shebeen, is that correct?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: That is correct.  I did not see him, he was called.  I don't know who called him but I remember that he was called by somebody to come and intervene but when he came to intervene, he was shot by mistake during that intervention.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)  what is the intervention and between who, do you know that?

MR SHEMBE: As far as I understand what he is saying in Zulu he said, Bheki was not there but somebody had to go and call him from where he called him to say he must reprimand Vusi as maybe I understand, he was becoming violent at that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was becoming violent?

MR SHEMBE: The applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Whilst he was in the shebeen?

MR SHEMBE: Yes, and then he went outside and then when Bheki came to calm him down that's when he shot him.

CHAIRPERSON: I see, so all right.

MR SHEMBE: That's how I understand it Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So then let's try and see if we can get that from him without putting the words in his mouth.  So you were in a shebeen?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) happened after that while you were in the shebeen, did you walk out of the shebeen?

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: Whilst I was there drinking there was some fight between myself and another boy.  We quarreled, I had actually sent him somewhere and I think he was also drunk so we had an argument with him and I hit him.  When I hit him the people who were in the house started saying I mustn't ...(intervention)

MR SHEMBE: These things are recorded, just a little bit slower don't speak fast.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: There's a certain man by the name of Sbongeni, I think it's Sbongeni but I don't remember his name well, he has since died.  I think it was Sbongeni ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

VUSI LINDA HLENGWA: Sbongeni. (spelt)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  You had an argument with this boy, you hit him and you were saying that the people of the house ...(intervention)