Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — UNKNOWN

ANSWER: No sir right from the beginning I was talking about Zeerust where Dibali was unconscious, I never indicated that he had lost consciousness in Soweto.
QUESTION PUT BY UNKNOWN PERSON - MICROPHONE NOT FUNCTIONAL

ANSWER: No we did not fire any shots.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Nofomela when you say the assault lasted for a short while, can you approximate in terms of minutes or hours what that means to you.    When you say short would it be 30 minutes, would it be an hour?

ANSWER: I would say it was less than three minutes, we were in a hurry, we came to abduct a person and this is something that happened in a very short space of time.  We spent a very short space of time in that house after this girl said that he was not there.   I'm referring to after this girl told us that he was not there.   After we had found him there we spent a very short period of time with him in that house.

SISI KHAMPEPE: That would be three minutes?

ANSWER: Yes, more or less just guessing.

MR DE WET-MARAIS: Mr Chairman if my learned friend has a number of questions further then I have to ask for a short adjournment.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes, the questions may not take less than 10 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: May not take less than 10 minutes.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Yes Mr Chairman.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS FOR THE DAY

<UNKNOWN>: /...
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ON RESUMPTION ON 21-1-1997 (DAY 2)

MR DE WET-MARAIS: Mr Chairman before my learned friend continues, the two Exhibits that I referred to yesterday before the Harms Commission are available today and we have made copies.   That's the affidavit by Lizzie Dibali who is the mother of Mohabi Dibali, according to the affidavit, and by attorney Priscilla Jana.   I HAND THESE UP then and they should be EXHIBIT J.

CHAIRPERSON: The one will be, some people don't like I because it looks like I so we'll just leave it a "J".
ALMOND NOFOMELA (suo)
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: Thank you Mr Chairman.   Mr Chairman, members of the Committee it is the 21st today, a continuation in the Dirk Coetzee & Others application.   Mr Nofomela, we are now moving to Zeerust.   You testified that Mohabi was assaulted, kicked, slapped and so on, what other things were used in assaulting him?

ANSWER: Sir I'd say that to explain what happened in detail, apart from what I can remember, would be difficult.  It's 16 years since this incident took place and I cannot, it's impossible for me to remember exactly what took place in sequence.   I'm sorry that I do not have that memory to provide you with satisfactory answers.

<UNKNOWN>: (No microphone)...take place in Zeerust.

ANSWER: As I have said sir, it was something that took place over a while, I'm not sure how it happened.

<UNKNOWN>: Not how it happened, the time, how long?

ANSWER: I would guess as far as that is concerned because it is difficult to remember how long you assaulted this person for after so many years.   I do not believe that I
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would be able to remember that with absolute certainty.

<UNKNOWN>: (Inaudible - microphone non functional).

ANSWER: Sir I'm here to tell the truth, taking guesses would be telling lies, I could take a guess and say one or two hours and it could have been five hours or three minutes.   I'm sorry sir, it's been a long time I really cannot guess.

<UNKNOWN>: How many persons all in all were assaulting Mohabi in the Zeerust house?

ANSWER: It was myself, Joe Mamasela and Lt Vermeulen.

<UNKNOWN>: ...any resistance during the assault?

ANSWER: He was not fighting, he was not resisting.

<UNKNOWN>: ...where to was he taken?

ANSWER: Questioning proceeded and I don't know where he ended up because we left him behind there and left back to Pretoria.

<UNKNOWN>: ...there with whom?

ANSWER: We left him at that house with Captain Coetzee and Lt Vermeulen.

<UNKNOWN>: ...you said he was assaulted...

JUDGE WILSON: Sorry can I interrupt, which Captain Coetzee?

ANSWER: Jan Coetzee.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: To take you a little bit back, back to the assault, you say he was assaulted by the three of you and then interrogated?

ANSWER: He was assaulted, it would happen at intervals, he would be assaulted and then questioned up until such a stage where he lost consciousness, that was the last, after that we left and left him there.
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<UNKNOWN>: If you can remember, how many times was he interrogated at Zeerust?

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't this one long process in which he is assaulted during the interrogation?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman, as I heard the witness he was assaulted and thereafter interrogated which means that the assault would stop and the interrogation would take place.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't it all part of the transaction where the assault takes place in order to get answers to questions so they would assault him until he answers questions that they want him to answer?   What would be the advantage of breaking it up into little compartments from your point of view?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Mr Chairman I'm doing this in order to determine the manner in which this man was being treated and even if Mr Chairman it can be said, with respect, that this was one transaction but it is clear that assault would take place and the assault would stop and he would be interrogated and thereafter assaulted.   Now these are compartmentalised instances which have a bearing on full disclosure.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well proceed.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE (contd)

<UNKNOWN>: If you remember how many times was he interrogated while still in Zeerust?

ANSWER: He was assaulted several times, I cannot remember how many times.

<UNKNOWN>: ...interrogation questioning and all?

ANSWER: I would not be able to remember that sir.

<UNKNOWN>: Was this man Mohabi identified as a target?

ANSWER: Yes sir.

<UNKNOWN>: (Inaudible - no microphone).
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ANSWER: I was told that we should fetch him, he was going to be asked, interrogated about his sister, we should go and abduct him, that is all I know about him.

<UNKNOWN>: Would my conclusion be right that this man was abducted, assaulted, interrogated, assaulted simply in order to get information from him and not that he was an activist, am I right?

ANSWER: Yes I also see it as that, in that way sir.

<UNKNOWN>: You testified yesterday that you had to do this on him in order to get information about the sister, sister's activities.   Who are you referring to when you say "sister's activities"?

ANSWER: They spoke sir and then there was the name of Joyce Dibali mentioned and the name Lilian so I'm not sure who exactly they were talking about.   The people who knew these people were Joe Mamasela and them.

<UNKNOWN>: ...because evidence was led yesterday that Joe Mamasela knew Joyce Dibali very well even where she lived and he also stayed in Joyce Dibali's house, so the knowledge was already with you.   Would you agree with me?

ANSWER: I knew that Joe knew that as I have already said.

<UNKNOWN>: ...the abduction and assault on Mohabi because what you wanted from him you knew already.   Would you agree to that?

JUDGE WILSON: How can you say that, they wanted information about his sister, that doesn't mean where she lived, it may well mean when she travels through Johannesburg, when she was next going to be in the country and matters of that nature.   I don't think it's right to put to the witness that "you already knew".

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: I stand corrected, thank you.
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NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DE WET-MARAIS

JUDGE WILSON: You've told us that you were serving the police force at the time, is that correct?

ANSWER: Yes sir.

JUDGE WILSON: You were under the direct command of Lt Vermeulen is that so?

ANSWER: I was under Vermeulen at the time that we were doing this sir.