Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-20

EDWARD WEBB: Chairperson, we had our Head Office in Pretoria, about a hundred people working there, then we went to Phalaborwa where there was a ground fighting element available for Special Forces, as well as pseudo capabilities, as well as a small reconnaissance group availability in Phalaborwa in the order of five hundred plus.  Then if we go to Durban, we had the parachute specialists with high jump low opening techniques, as well as sharp shooters, plus the hostage release team.  In Langebaan we had the sea specialist with regard to, with submarines, fleet ships or on their own capacities to reach targets, as well as all the support elements and there was a civil regiment as well.  So with all the support personnel, we're talking a thousand plus people, of which all the groups which I mentioned had different operations.
	If we look at the CCB, Region 6 was the latest region, so it was only in the beginning stage.  The rest of the CCB was very active externally and they were well founded, well established, they functioned well and the internal part still had to find its feet, if you want.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Mr Chairman, ...(indistinct - no microphone) Mr Verster.  You will find that he claimed privilege, at page 263 of the record, of the record of these proceedings and did not wish to answer any questions after consultation with my learned friend, Mr Wessels.  You'll see that on page 263 to 264.  This is why we haven't got from Mr Verster who the anthropologist who reported on this was.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: I'm going onto another matter, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  We'll now take the lunch adjournment until 2 o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

EDWARD WEBB: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: (cont)
	Let us deal with the Early Learning Centre bomb incident, General.  You give us the precise date on which Mr Verster came to you, the 30th of September.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Had you had any indication from him before this - in August was it, 30th of August.  Had you had any indication from him in your weekly meetings that this was being prepared?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now did you give you any explanation why you didn't have any forewarning, particularly as a bomb had to be obtained and it had to be doctored in relation to its explosive mechanism?  Did he give you any explanation as to why he came to you as a matter of such great urgency?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: What did he say?

EDWARD WEBB: He told me that the meeting or the members would meet again on the 31st of August and that the information indicated that they would meet on the 31st and we didn't know when after that they would meet again, so we had to act either on the 31st of not at all.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he explain why if in fact as we understand the other evidence, this was in preparation for some time, he hadn't forewarned you that a bomb was necessary?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who was your bomb maker, the CCB's bomb maker?

EDWARD WEBB: We didn't have a bomb maker.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well to whom did you go if you needed a bomb to blow up something?

EDWARD WEBB: The Special Forces had first and second choice or option in respect of captured armaments and they had their own weaponry.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, who was the "Spesiale Magte persoon"?  You know we don't want these vague things.  People procured bombs to do things, we want to know as part of your duty to make full disclosure, who it was that provided this bomb, please.

EDWARD WEBB: Chairperson, I only arranged for the remote control ignition device, not the limpet mine itself.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well I am sure that you will tell us who gave you the explosive mechanism, the remote.

EDWARD WEBB: Nobody gave it to me, I went to Col Hekkies van Heerden, he was my Engineering Officer and he therefore had control over the explosives and he then conveyed it to the CCB.

GEORGE BIZOS: So we know that he got the remote.

EDWARD WEBB: Correct, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: What are his full names, what was his rank, where is he now?

EDWARD WEBB: Unfortunately he died after leaving the Defence Force.

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh.  What was his job?

EDWARD WEBB: He was the Engineering Officer, the Technical Officer, and therefore he was in control of all my engineering capacity.  Engineering.

GEORGE BIZOS: Is a bomb an engineering function?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.  A mine.

GEORGE BIZOS: A mine.  Did Mr Verster tell you what sort of explosive device he had prepared for this purpose?

EDWARD WEBB: No, he told that they would use a limpet mine.

GEORGE BIZOS: In order to do damage to what?

EDWARD WEBB: To firstly frighten the people away and then also to damage the building.

GEORGE BIZOS: How was he going to frighten them?  Did he explain to you?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, we would explode the bomb immediately after the meeting, immediately after they'd left the hall and then they would get the message.

GEORGE BIZOS: How would they know that it was you who had put the bomb there in order to be frightened?

EDWARD WEBB: They needn't know that it was us, Mr Bizos, they simply had to get the message that somebody is after them, that was the important thing.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who other than the Security Forces would have been on their track?

EDWARD WEBB: They wouldn't have been aware of the CCB.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see, you thought that they may think that it was one of the other sabotage and killing agencies that might have done it?

EDWARD WEBB: I don't know what they would have thought, the important thing was to get the message home to them, "Somebody is on your track, watch out."

GEORGE BIZOS: Oh, did you ask him who the owner of the building was?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you ask him what purpose will this serve if none of them is injured, because they're going to meet somewhere else, under a tree, in a shebeen, in a cafe, in one's home?   Why damage property that didn't belong to them, that belonged to a religious trust that had made provision for the education of - yes, it wasn't a religious trust, it was trust with some religious people on its Board that had made provision for the education of children.

EDWARD WEBB: Chairperson, the idea was to frighten them off, to give them a severe fright and that's why the bomb had to explode as soon as possible after they'd left the hall.  I suppose they could have met again under a tree or in a shebeen or wherever, but some of those people would have said "Look, I'm done with this, I'm not going to take part in this kind of thing."  Some of the more hardened people might have said "Yes, I'll continue."  But this kind of thing would have had a different effect on different people.

GEORGE BIZOS: Assume that they had their meetings in Sanlam buildings, would you have blown up Sanlam?

EDWARD WEBB: Sanlam wouldn't have allowed that.

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon?

EDWARD WEBB: Sanlam would not have allowed such a thing.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well but let's assume that one of their employees had access to the building and was abusing the privilege, let's assume that he was the Sanlam caretaker and an ANC underground worker, would you have blown up Sanlam?

EDWARD WEBB: It's possible, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: I beg your pardon?

EDWARD WEBB: It's possible, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Wouldn't you have gone to Sanlam and said "Hey, your premises are being abused"?

EDWARD WEBB: We didn't consider that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why not?

EDWARD WEBB: Because it was our plan to carry it out in this way.