Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-06-20

GEORGE BIZOS: (cont)
	Do you agree that that was the function of the Security Council, to co-ordinate the activities of the Security Forces?

EDWARD WEBB: Chairperson, I never had any knowledge about the State Security Council's actions or what their tasks were.  I never received any direct orders in this regard.  I accept that they took certain decisions.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  At the time - do you now accept that at the time, the late '80s and certainly when you were the Head of the CCB, it has now emerged that the CCB was not the only body that was committing acts of violence, both against property and persons deemed to be the enemy of the State?  There was Vlakplaas, there was the Security Police, there was the CCB, there were suggestions that the Special Forces were doing things, there were suggestions that Intelligence Forces were committing similar acts.  Did not the Security Council come into being so that it can co-ordinate, amongst other things, the activities of the Police, the Defence Force, the Army and more particularly, the side shoots that were specially established for the purposes of killing people, damaging their property and playing dirty tricks against them?  Did an occasion not arise when it was necessary to co-ordinate this band of friends authorised to commit these acts?

EDWARD WEBB: I repeat, Chairperson, I was not a member of the State Security Council, I had no information about their actions and documents, so I cannot comment on that.

GEORGE BIZOS: The question was, do you now accept that there were these agencies for, not to use an uglier name, committing these acts?

EDWARD WEBB: What spread from the newspaper, for example Vlakplaas, in my time I was not aware of that.

GEORGE BIZOS: No, leave the newspapers out of it for a moment.  There was the Commission, the TRC, which heard much evidence coming from the very operatives - do you remember what I asked you about the CCB, Vlakplaas, the Security Police, the Information Services, do you now accept at that time there were various agencies doing a similar job, committing offences against the people of South Africa considered to be the enemies of the State?  Do you now accept that that was so at the time that you were Chairman of the CCB?

EDWARD WEBB: Apparently there were such organisations.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now at the time - let's deal with '89 when you were the Chairman, were there no discussions how to avoid duplication of acts and the crossing of the wires so to speak, by different agencies pursuing the same or conflicting objectives in relation to a particular individual?

EDWARD WEBB: No discussions with me, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you aware of any discussion?

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Perhaps I could put it subtly differently if I may.  Are you aware of any other structure that was designed to prevent this duplication of effort?

EDWARD WEBB: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now theoretically what you are telling us ...(indistinct)

MR SIBANYONI: Your mike, Mr Bizos.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you.
	Theoretically, if what you are telling us is the truth, you may have authorised the killing of one of the most valuable informers to the Security structure of South Africa, by not knowing how valuable he or she was to the Security Police or to the National Intelligence or to Military Intelligence, you may unwittingly have done a tremendous harm if there was not this co-operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Co-ordination.

GEORGE BIZOS: Co-ordination.  Thank you, that was the word I was looking for, Mr Chairman.

EDWARD WEBB: Theoretically spoken, yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Theoretically.  Well was there any step taken by you as Chairman before authorising anything, to determine whether you would not fall into that unfortunate trap?

EDWARD WEBB: I approved no such operation, so I could not fall into such a trap.

GEORGE BIZOS: Are you saying that as Chairman you didn't authorise any, the commission of any offence against anybody either internally or externally, during your term of office?  Is that what you are saying?

EDWARD WEBB: I'm saying internally, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: You're not prepared to talk about externally.

EDWARD WEBB: That we've decided already on.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well we didn't decide, that is what you claim.  But for the purposes of my question, for the purposes of my question, if in fact you were to decide that anyone outside should be killed by your organisation, you may have done a tremendous harm to the other agencies.

EDWARD WEBB: Theoretically, yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.

EDWARD WEBB: Except, as I said yesterday, if injury or death was foreseen then I would have gone to higher authority for approval.  That means that the higher authority may have communicated with another agency, that I don't know.

GEORGE BIZOS: You were kept out of the picture.

EDWARD WEBB: I was not involved in such a picture, I had no opportunity to be involved in such a picture.

GEORGE BIZOS: I see.  Of course if Col Verster spoke the truth before this Committee, your premise would be incorrect.

EDWARD WEBB: In what regard?

GEORGE BIZOS: In relation to internal killings.

EDWARD WEBB: There were no internal killings.

GEORGE BIZOS: Or conspiracies or attempts to do so.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: There were none as far as you were concerned?

EDWARD WEBB: No, killings, no.

GEORGE BIZOS: Conspiracies or attempts?

EDWARD WEBB: The conspiracy has been heard before this Committee.

MR LAX: I think the point Mr Bizos is putting to you is that you were not involved in any conspiracies or attempts to kill anybody.  That's your evidence.

EDWARD WEBB: That's correct.

MR LAX: That's all he's confirming with you.

GEORGE BIZOS: Do you agree that your evidence in any way at the Harms Commission, had the effect of misleading the Harms Commission in relation to the CCB?

EDWARD WEBB: I acknowledged it yesterday, yes.

GEORGE BIZOS: Because I want to refer you to bundle D, pages 58 to 59, where Judge Harms deals with his findings.  Now you had the same counsel as Mr Verster, not so?

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: And Mr Verster told this Committee things about what was happening internally, which he either denied or claimed privilege for before the Commission.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: You stood by listening to Col Verster lying to the Commission.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you tell your joint counsel that your fellow client was lying?

EDWARD WEBB: What joint counsel are you talking about?

GEORGE BIZOS: The advocates that were representing you and Mr Verster, counsel with s-e-l, not c-i-l.

EDWARD WEBB: No, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Why not?

EDWARD WEBB: We drew up our submission apart.

GEORGE BIZOS: False statements were taken and you stood by it and you sat there throughout the proceedings, hearing your subordinate officer, a Colonel, lying and you did nothing about it.

EDWARD WEBB: That's true, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Well knowing that the President of the country had appointed a High Court Judge in order to try and ascertain the truth.

EDWARD WEBB: Yes, Chairperson.

GEORGE BIZOS: Also it was put to you, was it not in one of the subsequent proceedings, that the Minister had told you to cooperate fully with the Commission, do you remember what your answer was?

EDWARD WEBB: We had to give our full co-operation with the investigation team, namely Gen Badenhorst and Brig Engelbrecht.

GEORGE BIZOS: Who gave you that advice?

EDWARD WEBB: That advice, we were asked that by Gen Geldenhuys, to do it.

GEORGE BIZOS: By Gen Geldenhuys who was your superior, because that was your answer, "Not the Minister, General Geldenhuys told us."  And did you obey the order of your higher office in order to give full co-operation?

EDWARD WEBB: To the investigation team, yes.