Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1997-07-14

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It could have been a direct instruction, I am not sure.  The fact of the matter is I was his escort.

MR JONAS: Okay.  Is it a normal police norm to take the detainees to the mortuary, whenever maybe there has been a bomb blast or a suspected terrorist shot?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not to my knowledge.

MR JONAS: Not to your knowledge?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: No Sir.

MR JONAS: That is not a normal, it is a flagrant violation if a detainee is taken there - to the mortuary?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, I would say definitely.

MR JONAS: Why was I taken to the mortuary on more than one occasion?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Excuse me?  May I ask a question  here, by whom?

MR JONAS: You were there.  I can recall incidents.  There was a person that either shot himself or was shot in Guguletu, Nyanga, he had a bullet wound here and you said it was a Makarov, he shot himself through the mouth and the exit was here.
	There is a person that was killed by a bomb in Wynberg.  I think it was a vagrant, initially you suspected that it was a terrorist and that was the news, only to find out that it was a vagrant later.  Why was I taken there amongst those corpses?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Yes, Mr Jonas.  I initially did not understand your question.  At a stage, you surely remember when you started helping the Security Police in Cape Town with the identification of not only persons suspected of being terrorists and killed here in Cape Town, but you were also taken other places if I am not mistaken.
	Because I was not your handler, because that is the name that was given to a person who was having the help of the detained terrorist, I seem to remember that you were taken.  I did not take you to the mortuary.  I think somebody else took you.

MR JONAS: Who was it?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I don't know what inference you are trying to draw of going to the mortuary, but that was the time that you were helping the Terrorist Unit, Cape Town, with the identification of people who could possibly be deceased terrorists, you were also being used to identify certain people who we were not sure of.
As a matter of interest, I think I should stop here, and just answer his question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR JONAS: Come again.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jonas, I think we will take the adjournment at this stage.  We will adjourn and resume at two o'clock.  Try and be here in time.
COMMISSION ADJOURNS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jonas, are you ready to proceed?

MR JONAS: Thank you.
JEFFERY T. BENZIEN: (still under oath)

MR JONAS: (cont)
	Captain Benzien, I understand that the shot that killed Ashley Kriel was a misfire, am I correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Not a misfire.

MR JONAS: Was it intentional?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: It was not intentional.

MR JONAS: Not intentional?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR JONAS: And you are of the opinion that he should receive medical treatment as soon as possible?  You tried your utmost best to call an ambulance?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR JONAS: How would you reconcile that then with the case of a person who was deliberately shot, shooting of which was planned and injured but then the treatment or the calling of an ambulance was delayed by almost six hours, do those reconcile?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: There was a delay in getting medical attention in your case, but the injury to you did not appear at first, to be as serious as in the case of Mr Kriel, where I think his shot was lethal or fatal.

MR JONAS: But you have mentioned earlier that you only became aware of the extent of the injury, only when I was taken, I mean the X-rays were taken from me, is that correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: That is correct.

MR JONAS: Had I died in the process of delaying the medical treatment, would I not have died maybe under the same conditions as Ashley Kriel?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: The only wound that could be seen in your upper leg, did not appear to be bleeding profusely.  I am not trying to act as if I know medicine, I must concede with hindsight that it could have been a very serious injury, but at that stage, you were alive and the weaponry that you could perhaps show us, was of cardinal value.

JUDGE WILSON: Once again, you must know what you are talking about, we don't.  Where was the wound on your leg?

MR JONAS: Come again?

JUDGE WILSON: Where was the wound on your leg?

MR JONAS: Okay, it was on the upper right femur, I mean upper left femur.

JUDGE WILSON: Right up there, high up the top of your leg?

MR JONAS: Yes.  I still have the bullet on the other leg.

JUDGE WILSON: Thank you.

MR JONAS: If I may ask Captain, you were not aware of the extent of the injury?  Are you aware of the fact that my clothes even the T-shirt that I was wearing, all of it was covered in blood as well as my pants?  And I didn't bleed profusely as you claim.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I remember there was blood.  The decision that was made was that the wound was not either rightly or wrongly, serious, so serious that you could have died.	It might have been the wrong decision, in this case you did not die, but the finding of your weapons was an absolute priority.

MR JONAS: So then if the finding of the weapon was an absolute priority over my life, would it be wrong then if one goes away with an impression that the same attitude maybe might have prevailed in the case of Ashley Kriel, that his life was not of utmost priority?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Life is always dear Sir.  The circumstances relating to your shooting incident and Kriel's circumstances are not the same.

MR JONAS: In my case life was not so dear.  It was the weapons that were so dear.  Am I correct?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: If you put it like that Sir, I have to concede, yes.

MR JONAS: I will pass on that and ask another question.  When did you start to know about the askaris, or do you know about the askaris presently?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: When did askaris come to my knowledge, that there was a Unit referred to as askaris?

MR JONAS: Askaris, the term askaris?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Or the specific evening that you are referring to?

MR JONAS: No, the askaris, the Units, or the word askari?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: In the time of me being in the Terrorist Detection Unit.

MR JONAS: Come again.

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: In the period that I was at the Terrorist Detection Unit.

MR JONAS: You knew about that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I had heard about them, yes.

MR JONAS: If I can just remind you, did you not deny in the court of law, that you know anything about the term askari because I was the first person in fact, even before Mamasela to mention about the existence of askaris.  Do you still recall and you denied knowledge of that?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I am not sure about this.

MR JONAS: So if you are not sure, what did you tell the court about the askaris?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you want to know whether he knew something about the askaris, or do you want to know whether he had heard about the term askaris?  Which is it?

MR JONAS: Both.  Both are applicable.

CHAIRPERSON: But he may have known about the term askaris, without having known about how they worked and details of that kind.  He may have heard the word askaris earlier.

MR JONAS: Both are applicable.

CHAIRPERSON: Your questions are in respect of both?

MR JONAS: The question is did he know about their existence or the name, is it new or was it familiar to him in the event that maybe he did not know about their existence.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, let's break that down.  When did you first hear about askaris?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: Once I had become a member of the Terrorist Detection Unit, Sir.  But as on what occasion, what year, I am not sure.

MR JONAS: But you were a member of that Unit before you came to the court to testify in my case, not so?

JEFFERY T BENZIEN: I was a member of the Terrorist Detection Unit, that is correct.

MR JONAS: And you denied to the court of law any knowledge of askari, the term askari?  Am I correct?