Amnesty Hearings — Umtata — 2000-03-28

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody.  I apologise for the late start this morning, but the reason was that one of the legal representatives has just joined in this matter now and he needed some time to consult with his clients.  Mr Madikizela, could you please place yourself on record?

MR MADIKIZELA: I am Mr Madikizela representing the members of the security branch in this hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Madikizela.  Mr Siqhola, I remind you that you are still under your former oath that you took yesterday?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mgidlana, do you have any questions that you would like to put to the witness?

MR MGIDLANA: Yes, thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Siqhola, you said yesterday that you came to Umtata to be part of the security branch there in 1984, is that correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes that is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Did I understand you well as saying that you had in fact joined the security police in 1981?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: In 1980.

MR MGIDLANA: And you said you had attended some lectures, is that correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: When?

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think you said in your evidence that when you were at Police College you were elected by a person called Smith and also from time to time by General Lavisa?

MR DUKADA: Sorry Mr Chairperson, may I intervene for the witness?  The witness testified yesterday to say that from the pass out parade he was taken to Bothastal Building not at the Police College.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes sorry, it was at Bothastal Building, 6th Floor, you attended lectures given by Smith and Lavisa, Messrs Smith and Lavisa.

MR MGIDLANA: So you had attended lectures in 1981, Bothastal, is that correct?  Security lectures as you call them?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Were those the only lectures that you had attended during your whole career as a member of the security branch?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No.

MR MGIDLANA: You said that amongst the things that were taught during those lectures you were shown videos about necklacing, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: We don't have to confirm the whole evidence, we've heard it.  I think just assume that if he said it. I don't think you have to get him to confirm everything he said in his evidence in chief.

MR MGIDLANA: Thank you, Chairperson.  Did you get this lecture or were you shown this video on necklacing in 1981?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Was it a video about necklacing taking place in South Africa?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Yes that is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: Was it a video taken by the police, that is shot by the police?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I wouldn't know.

MR MGIDLANA: But you are certain that it was a video that you were shown in 1981?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is correct.

MR MGIDLANA: My recollection of the events that necklacing method started sometime in 1985, is that not so?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I don't know.

MR MGIDLANA: If it is so you can't have been shown that video in 1981 because by then this necklacing method had not yet been a feature of the South African politics, is that not correct?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I wouldn't say when it started because I don't when this method started.

MR MGIDLANA: Could it be that you are mistaken when you say you were shown this video in 1981?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I'm not mistaken.

MR MGIDLANA: Then should we take it that you are lying when you say you were shown this video in 1981?

MR LAX: Well with respect, Sir, you yourself are not even sure when necklacing came into existence, you think it was in 1985.  We don't know, we haven't heard evidence from experts in politics to say this is the only time necklacing is used in the country.  We don't know where those videos were made, they may have been done in other countries and if certainly the evidence we've heard over the years in this Commission is correct, the police took footage from a whole range of places, put them in videos as way of indoctrinating people.  Are you saying he wasn't indoctrinated?  I mean is that the thrust of your question?  You're going to get to the point?

MR MGIDLANA: The point, Honourable Member of the Committee, is that he says this was a video that he was shown in 1981 and which was shot, which was taken in South Africa by the ...(intervention)

MR LAX: But he thinks, he's not sure, he doesn't know who took the video, do you understand?

MR MGIDLANA: I thought he was sure.

MR LAX: No, no, he said he wasn't sure who took the video.  You said to him was it the police?  He said he's not sure, so really ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think here what he said is he saw a video in 1981 of necklacing and that he's sticking by that.  Obviously, if necklacing never occurred before '85, then he is wrong.  I mean it's quite clearly so, but you know he doesn't have to say that he's wrong if it couldn't have been.  It's just pure common sense.  So, you know, if it can be proved that there was never ever a necklacing before 1985 or certainly not in 1981 then you've driven your point home so it's a question of argument then.

MR MGIDLANA: Thanks, Chairperson.  Apart from the courses, lectures you received during the training were you shown these videos from time to time even when you were working?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No that is not like that.

MR MGIDLANA: Thank you.  So you say you indeed began to hate the ANC?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: That is one of the reasons that made me to hate the ANC at that time.

MR MGIDLANA: Is it that you hated the ANC only amongst all these political organisations that were there fighting against apartheid?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: I wasn't aware of any other organisations, it was my first time to be aware of the ANC and other organisations.

MR MGIDLANA: And as part of these lectures were you also lectured on how to extract information from detainees?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: No.

MR MGIDLANA: Did you use any of the methods that you've mentioned yesterday in your evidence in trying to extract information from the detainees?  You personally?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Which methods, can you please explain?

MR MGIDLANA: You told ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned a whole lot of methods yesterday.  The helicopter method, the canvas bag method, the doing exercises, leaning against the wall, all those that you've mentioned in your affidavit.  Now Mr Mgidlana's asking you did you personally, yourself, apply any of those methods when interrogating detainees or persons who were suspected?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: All those that are in my affidavit I used them.

MR MGIDLANA: Were you taught those methods by anyone or how did you come about to know about those methods of interrogation?

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Assaulting the detainees and the helicopter method, when I arrived there they were also used and the canvas bag one, I was taught by Warrant Officer Ndobela.

MR MGIDLANA: You mentioned some of the people that you said you may have tortured.  Are you able to recall as to what methods exactly did you use against each and every one of them?

MR DUKADA: Sorry Mr Chairperson, Members, the question is very vague to the witness.  The witness has given a broad picture of torturing methods he applied.  Let my learned friend be specific about each victim if he wants the witness to explain it.  It can take us the whole day for the witness to explain what torture methods were used to all the people in his affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps if you could mention names and ask him if he can recall what method he used, Mr Mgidlana?  On paragraph 12 of the affidavit.

MR MGIDLANA: Let's just take Manelisi Nyoka, number 8 on page 10 of the affidavit.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: Do you want to tell you about the methods that we used on him?

MR MGIDLANA: Yes please.

NELSON NKOSINATHI SIQHOLA: ...(inaudible)