Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-19

REV XUNDU: On page 8 of your submission you said the referendum, you refused the referendum, the referendum that was going to give people a choice of their leaders, you refused that.  Do you really mean that you were going on, you were ruling people according to the principle of the soldiers not about the majority rule?  This is a contradiction of what you have just said.

UNKNOWN: At the time of the referendum the people were talking largely about dismantling the Homelands at the negotiating table.  That was going to waste time according to my own government.   I have reasons there, I have stated clearly the reasons of that.

REV XUNDU: I am not saying is it's not true because what I know of the people of Ciskei, the people of Ciskei were always electing their own people because they were saying they have a democratic government.  In the previous hearings that we had there were a lot of claims and accusations that you had your own chiefs and headmen in different villages, you forced the headmen and the mayors to remove everybody who was against your regime.  Can't you see that in this conflict, I am not against you but I just want you to see this, in your evidence it looks like you were innocent.  There are people who could see that you were a perpetrator yourself, and this is where you must admit that you played a role, you had a responsibility.  So if you admit that there will be reconciliation.

UNKNOWN: What you are saying Sir is true because in this situation ...(tape ends)

REV XUNDU: ....not what the people like, if you are a ruler you don't concentrate on one group of people, some of the people were manhandled and that kind of a situation.
There was conflict between the government and the Residents Associations saying that they were not the structure of the Ciskeian Government but they were under ANC.

UNKNOWN: That gave us a problem that the government could not approach the organisations,though the government was forced to address the daily problems of the residents.  We realised that there are people who were against the resident's committees, they even said that these resident's committee were worse more than the Sebe regime.  I realise that there was no alternative for my government but I had to try and go to the traditional leaders instead of appoint the chiefs we had to elect them, that's what we do as we were trying to meet the demands of the residents.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you very much.  Here I will just ask a few questions as the Chairperson indicated that we haven't had time to look at your documents so it will be basically questions asking for clarification.  When you started you indicated that you couldn't attend due to your incapacity, would you like to tell us more about your incapacity?

UNKNOWN: Can we please confer with my lawyer because she wants to tell me something.  Thank you Mr Chairman.  Yes, I would like to share that with the Commission.  When I went to, before I went to the other court case in Kimberley I must say I was very, very emotional, I was very stressed.  I had spent many nights without sleeping, I had no money, so all these things made for a very big depression in me.  I think if the psychiatrist did not recommend that, under such emotional stress I could not handle any situation where I had to give of myself you know what I think.  I was very sensitive as well.  The reason they detected this was that every time they asked a thing I would keep quiet long and cry. So they said no this is terrible, I think we will not be making any service to whatever - I could not even give them what particulars they needed.  So I again having had the shock of the sentence at Taung exacerbated my situation which they had already diagnosed earlier on.  But when I came back I was also, that didn't help me at all because I had to go to places I have never been and all this and all this.  So I was really willing to come but I think that on second thoughts, after having gone for treatment at Komane I praised the Lord for that because I think that not only helped me but it returned me from a point of no return.

MS MKHIZE: Maybe just a related observation, do you think an opportunity to talk openly before your own people about your involvement as a leader in the area and particularly around the unfortunate date will have a healing effect, a further healing effect?

UNKNOWN: Yes I do believe that you actually heal the more you have nothing in you that holds you know on your conscience and that you also - My feeling on your question is that I know I may not convince many people out there of the way I am, and perhaps I may not have the ability to be able to foresee exactly what they want me to say and which would actually be fooling them and fooling myself if I say what I think they want to say, but as long as I have said what I feel at the moment and I hope that they understand me for what I am and how I am, that to a large extent would make me feel happy, instead of just sitting there, nobody knows how I feel, nobody ever thought that they would see me and hear me talk about this, I think that both ways it could help.

MS MKHIZE: Another point of clarification I see here page 3 and page 15 on your document you referred to Homelands which did not support the ANC, can you just clarify for us what exactly do you mean?  I mean when you talk about the Homelands one assumes that you are talking about a geographical area with divided peoples, some belonging to political groupings, some not aligned.  The impression you create is like you had a bunch of people holding onto one, only one political ideology, can you just explain to that.  It comes on page 3 and also on page 15 of your document?

UNKNOWN: That would be best replied by the attitude of the ANC's thrust in its campaigns to destabilise those countries that I mentioned.  It is clear in that, that it is merely because they were areas where the leadership of those places shared at times different views, either, not the view of liberation, it may be views on how to achieve the liberation and how in the interim things must be governed towards the attainment of what we all want and cherish which is our freedom.  But I do have a clear vivid picture of the Transkei not being harassed by the ANC through its mass actions, Venda not being harassed, Kwandebele not being harassed, all other places not being harassed, except only Ciskei, Bophuthatswana perhaps and others who were sort of having their original sort of ideas on the way forward.

MR POTGIETER: Sorry Hlengiwe just before you proceed.  I am just going to make a ruling on order and procedure.  I am going to proceed down the line of Commissioners and panellists and allow them to ask a first round of questions, and then I'll assess how the time is to deal with further questioning, so bear that in mind that there are time limits that we've got to stick to and try to keep it as pointedly as possible.  So Hlengiwe would you like to proceed.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you Mr Chairman.  Another point which I would like you to clarify for us on page 12 where you say the actions by the military was thus defensive in nature.  As a person who was responsible for safety and security in the area, I mean we are talking here about the loss of life, can you tell us what exactly do you mean by saying the action was defensive in nature, viz a viz what they did?