Amnesty Hearings — Aliwal North — 1998-04-28

MR PRIOR: Well, on your version as you've put out in your amnesty application, and your affidavit, and the affidavits of the occupants of the vehicle that survived, it seems to me that these people at some stage just got out of the vehicle and started to run away, isn't that the position?  Getting away from the danger, the shooting, is that correct?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Where is the difference to what I've just said?

MR PRIOR: Alright.  It would seem from the photographs Mr Smit had at some stage been shot at the back of the calf, at the back of the leg - I think if you look at photograph, in bundle "B", photograph 47.  Do you see that?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: If you turn to photograph 10, that is the vehicle in which he was a passenger and where the people in the foreground are foraging in the veld according to they key, which you've agreed to, that is the position in which they found Mr Smit's body after he had been killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Not where they're foraging, Mr Prior.  They found the body didn't they, as I understand, at point "G".  Where they are foraging, is where they found five 5.56 cartridges - that's at "H".

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman, if you'll just give me a moment.  Sorry, I'm looking at the wrong photo.  Sorry, I can't make out point "G".  Oh yes, sorry, that's the person on the right-hand side ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sitting.

MR PRIOR: Yes, within a metre or two.

CHAIRPERSON: The three foragings where they found a number, not just one, where they found five cartridge cases.

MR PRIOR: Yes.  That's 5.56.  Yes, thank you for clearing that up, I was a bit - I couldn't see point "G" for a moment, I now see it.
	Please look at photograph 10.  I want to just try and sketch the position to you, can you see there are three people together, close together and somewhat to the right-hand side there's a single person, or solitary person sort of crouching down?  That point has been given as "G", where the body was found of Mr Smith.  And where these three people are, that point has been marked "H".  The Police found five 5.65 cartridges in that position.  Did you shoot Mr Smith at least five times from that position, or near that position?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I don't know how many cartridges, I did not count.

MR PRIOR: It's just, Mr Chairman, I don't want to make the mistake again that we made in Heidelberg's matter where we found that the trajectory of cartridges was between eight and sixteen or eighteen paces, so it would be difficult for me to draw any conclusions from that.  Did you shoot at anyone else that Mr Smit who was in that position - that is now after the people had gotten out of the car and are running away?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Well then tell us in your own recall ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Before you ask him to do that, isn't it worthwhile finding out where he was on this photograph first and where he shot from, and then we'll move to the next phase, which is the killing of Mr Smit.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Can you possibly just assist us and put yourself on the scene, where you were when you shot Mr Smit with your R5?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I would not be sure, but it's between "G" and the Police transport.  I can just estimate, though I'm not sure that when we first shot we were in that position.

MR PRIOR: Is that the Police vehicle that one sees on the extreme right-hand side of the photograph?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: That's when you first shot at him?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Not at him.  I was standing in that position.

MR PRIOR: The people were in your way, or fleeing the scene?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: This is like this, when we first shooting, I was in this other side.  I was shooting the car and the people when they were coming out of the car, when they were running out of the car I was running after them.

MR PRIOR: And you were firing at them?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, I was shooting.

MR PRIOR: And there were three of them that alighted from the car?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: That was two white men and one black man?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Because in your affidavit you say,
"Three of the occupants climbed out of the car and ran away.  One did not survive.  When we came close to this target, we found this person."
I'll come back to that.  So, at this stage the three people jumped out of the car, you shot in their direction?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Were you aiming at anyone in particular?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I was facing the people who were manoeuvring.

MR PRIOR: Were they moving from side to side as they were running away?  When you say manoeuvring, what do you mean by that?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: When they got out of the car, one of them got out and he was bread-falling and he met another one.  I didn't see them when they were crossing the fence, jumping over the fence, but I saw them while they were on the other side of the fence, but at the distance they then ran away.

MR LAX: You indicated with your fingers - which direction did they run in?  They came from where the car is - in which direction did they go?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: In the direction of the four people here.

MR LAX: So they ran in the direction of the person who would be taking this photograph?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR LAX: And then, is there a whole lot of veld on this side, presumably there's a fence, you said there was some sort of fence?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, there was a fence.

MR LAX: At this point in time, you were standing somewhere on the other side of the road.  You said somewhere midway between the point "G" and that Police vehicle you can see, is that right?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR LAX: I notice there's a gate entrance near where the Police vehicle is.  Would it be somewhere near that?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, I didn't see a gate.

MR LAX: How far would you estimate that point from the burned out vehicle to the Police vehicle, approximately?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I cannot estimate, because I didn't think that I would come here and I would be required to estimate the distance.

MR LAX: Well, I'll estimate it for you.  It looks no more than 30 or 40 metres.  Have a look at the photograph.  Maybe 50 at the most.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: I cant' be sure.

MR LAX: We're just trying to get a sense of where you were standing then, but you were on the other side of the road, anyway?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: May I be of some assistance, Mr Chairman.  In terms of bundle "B" at page - on the second page, page 2 of bundle "B", there's a measurement which says "from the burned out motor vehicle to the furthest cartridges".  If one looks at  photograph one, I think the further cartridge is marked exhibit - at "Z", that whole area, the distance is 1,76 metres.  That may just give an idea the distance over which the incidence took place.
	Can I move on, Mr Chairman.  Mr Gqomfa, let me just try and understand, from the time that you started firing at this vehicle, had the vehicle got past your position, in other words, were you firing at it as it was moving away from you?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: No, we were firing as it was passing.

MR PRIOR: And then you continued firing at it until it came to a standstill?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Did you then move from your position closer to the vehicle?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes, we moved when I changed my magazine.

MR PRIOR: And were you firing - did you continue to fire as you were moving forward?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: I'm just trying to understand you.  Then people got out of the car, three people on your version, got out of the vehicle and then moved towards the fence and got through the fence, and ran away, is that correct?

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: Yes.