Amnesty Hearings — Phokeng — 1996-05-20

MR CURRIN: Were you a member of any political organisation at the time of this particular incident, and if so, which political organisation or political organisations were you a member?

MR MOKGATLE: I was the member of PPP during that time.

MR CURRIN: Were you also a member of the African National Congress?

MR MOKGATLE: Because of the struggle it happened that I communicated with the people of the ANC and I wanted to register with them.

MR CURRIN: I see.  We have a letter on our file which tells us that you were a member of the African National Congress.  So do you confirm that?

MR MOKGATLE: Can you please repeat your question, sir?

MR CURRIN: We have a letter on our file which says that at the time of this event you were a member of the African National Congress.   I just asked whether you are able to confirm that.

HASSAN MALL: Who was the letter from?

MR MOKGATLE: Yes, that's true, sir.

HASSAN MALL: Who was the letter from, Mr Currin?

MR CURRIN: It is from the Rustenburg regional office of the African National Congress.

MR MOKGATLE: Yes, that's true.  The people I met were at Rustenburg.
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78

MR CURRIN: Mr Chairman, it is - before we move onto another aspect of the evidence, it is four o'clock and it has been indicated to me by my colleague that you wish to adjourn at 16:00.  It is not 16:00.  Should we continue on another tack or would this be an opportune moment to adjourn?

HASSAN MALL: Mr Currin, we will take the adjournment now and if it is convenient we would like to make a beginning tomorrow morning at half past nine.  Will that be convenient to you?

MR CURRIN: That is convenient to us, sir.

HASSAN MALL: And Mr Mpshe?
     Now before we announce the adjournment, please remain seated.  There is a note on my table.  Once again, please hand in the head-phones before you leave.  Could you leave your head-phones on top of the stage here in front.  If you do not do that then at future hearings you may be deprived of the use of head-phones altogether.  So please for the convenience of everybody else, bring the head-phones and leave them here and I will now adjourn the hearing until 09:30 tomorrow morning.

MR CURRIN: Sorry, the witness has not been excused.  Is that all right?

SISI KHAMPEPE: It is too late.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
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80
ON RESUMPTION

HASSAN MALL: Any re-examination?

MR CURRIN: There will be no re-examination.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CURRIN

HASSAN MALL: Thank you very much for the testimony you have given.

MR CURRIN: Thank you for the testimony.
WITNESS EXCUSED
PHOKENG HEARING	AMNESTY/GAUTENG
81	MR L KGOSANE

MR CURRIN: Mr Chairman, the next witness we would like to call is Lawrence Kgosane and he will be testifying about the action committee and the role of the action committee.

HASSAN MALL: What is his surname?

MR CURRIN: Kgosane.

HASSAN MALL: Will you spell that, please?

MR CURRIN: K-G-O-S-A-N-E.

HASSAN MALL: Thank you.

LAWRENCE KGOSANE: (Duly sworn, states).

CURRIN: Mr Kgosane, what are your full names?

LAWRENCE KGOSANE: Lawrence Kgosane.

MR CURRIN: Where and when were you born?

LAWRENCE KGOSANE: I was born in Phokeng in 1948 on the 8th of August.

MR CURRIN: You have heard evidence about the action committee when it was first formed, right at the beginning.  What were the then objectives of the action committee?

LAWRENCE KGOSANE: During its formation the objectives of the action committee was to take care of the tribe, that was split in two.  We had to bring unity and the second point, we wanted to see that our kingship, the Baphokeng kingship is respected and we wanted to see to it that our king who was in exile should come back and take his right position.

MR CURRIN: Thank you.  I meant to ask you this question a moment ago.  What was your position on the action committee?

LAWRENCE KGOSANE: I was the chairman of the action committee.

MR CURRIN: You said that one of the tasks and objectives of the action committee was to ensure unity amongst the tribe.  Is that - are you referring there to the tribe or the tribal authority or the tribal council?
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82

LAWRENCE KGOSANE: It was to unite the nation, the tribe.

MR CURRIN: Was the tribe no longer united, if you say that?

LAWRENCE KGOSANE: Our Baphokeng tribe was split, because of the former government.

MR CURRIN: Because of the former government?  Why do you say that?

LAWRENCE KGOSANE: I was born in Phokeng and when I grew up the Baphokeng tribe was pulling together.  It was united. It was long before the Mangope government and just after the leadership of Mr Mangope there was a split ...

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Outside Bophuthatswana?

LAWRENCE KGOSANE: Yes, I was trying to say outside Bophuthatswana.

MR CURRIN: Thank you.  You have described that you were forced then into taking up a political role.  Could you tell us when the role changed, what then became the objectives of the action committee?

LAWRENCE KGOSANE: Can you please repeat your question so that I can understand it?

MR CURRIN: You said and you explained that you were forced to change your role as an action committee and that you then undertook some sort of a political role.  Would you please share with the Committee and the rest of us, what that new role was, the new role of the action committee now that you had undertaken some political role?

LAWRENCE KGOSANE: We came to politics because we realised that there would be no way out as an action committee.  We wanted to reach the liberation movements during that time, to get advice from them.  We knew that those were the people who had information on how to fight for liberation.
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83

MR CURRIN: What were those political objectives of the action committee?

LAWRENCE KGOSANE: Our objective was to see unity among our tribe.  We wanted peace in our area.

MR CURRIN: Did, as an action committee, you have any objective in regard to this building, from which you had been so to say, exiled?

LAWRENCE KGOSANE: Our Baphokeng nation had an aim with erecting this building. We wanted to take activities that are related to the nation to this building.

MR CURRIN: I'm afraid I lost the - my machine developed a gremlin.  Could you just repeat the interpretation for my purposes?

LAWRENCE KGOSANE: The aim of the Baphokeng tribe was to - when I give you an answer:  as the Baphokeng tribe we erected this building with an aim, that we have to carry our meetings here, and every matter relating to the Baphokeng tribe should take place in this building.

MR CURRIN: But you couldn't do that because you lost control of it.  Now the question is, the action committee of which you were the chairperson, did you have any objective in regard to this building; were you happy that this building should remain under the control of the Bophuthatswana Government?

LAWRENCE KGOSANE: Can you please repeat your question, I do not get it clear?

MR CURRIN: This building, the whole structure ...

ADV DE JAGER: He said he wanted it back for the nation, for the purposes of the nation.

MR CURRIN: I didn't understand that, but if that is what he said, I will accept it that is the answer.  Thank you.
PHOKENG HEARING	AMNESTY/GAUTENG
84
Maybe that is what I lost when my machine went on the blink.

LAWRENCE KGOSANE: Can I continue, sir?

MR CURRIN: Yes, sure, you may continue.

LAWRENCE KGOSANE: Our aim was to conduct our meetings here in this building.

MR CURRIN: You had begun to have meetings with the African National Congress.  Can you tell us a little bit about the nature of those meetings and if any relationship developed between your action committee and the liberation movements?  Tell us about that as well, please?