Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1992-05-12

GARY JOHN KRUSER: My impression is they were launching an attack.  Access to Shell House could be gained via other entrances.  I said to the court I'm not prepared to divulge that information in the open, if they pose - it would still pose a threat to Shell House.  I am saying from where they launched the attack, I'm not sure what information they had and what information they had because we were also aware that plans were trying to be obtained from the City Council from sources within the IFP and the third force, we are aware of that fact therefore I think the front door was one option, I also think options from different shops was another option.

MR DORFLING: What access route did you try and protect on that day?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: My lord, I'm sorry, Mr Chairman, when I felt that life and limb not only of myself but my fellow guards and comrades and also the building was under attack, it was not about the access it's about protecting firstly my life and the lives of the members of the ANC in the building and the leadership of the building.  If I allowed, if I retreated to the front of the building, a crowd of that size and magnitude with the type of weapons among that crowd, I think the tally, the death tally would have been much higher not only from their side at the doors but we also would have suffered quite a few casualties from our side.  The front entrance of Shell House is protected by ordinary glass door, a crowd of a thousand to storm down a door of that nature I think it's common cause what would have happened if a thousand people stormed those doors down and we were inside with AK47's - what would be the nature of death on both sides and injuries I think.

MR DORFLING: Am I correct in inferring from that answer that what you envisaged is the crowd could gain access through the front door by storming the front door and entering the building and in that way pose a threat to the leadership and the members of the ANC in the building?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: When, the impression I got there was an attack, there was gunfire coming - I think my own life was also at danger, the lives of my colleagues were at danger.  The other aspects just continues.  After us, the members of the ANC - after that the leadership of the ANC, the destruction of our building, I think there's evidence in terms of what happened at Boiphatong when a group of armed Inkatha marchers marched through the township.  There's evidence what happened at the Jo'burg Civic Centre when they broke down the doors in that march - so I think it's common cause and I think any trained security person would tell you that you need to determine where you last line of defence is - where you're going to face the minimum of losses when you're under attack.  You cannot go to a point where you're going to face the maximum amount of losses and as a trained person I took that decision that that was the position I had to make my last line of defence if an attack was coming.

MR DORFLING: Let's just look at the factual situation, Mr Kruser.  You were positioned with - together with some other guards on the corners of King George and Plein Street on the south western corner of Shell House?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's right.

MR DORFLING: The other security guards were positioned on the balcony on the second floor of the building, is that correct?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: There were people on the parapet, that's correct.  First floor I think.

MR DORFLING: If there were no security guards positioned at the corners of King George and Plein Street it would allow the marchers to proceed unhindered at least until up to the corner of King George and Plein Street, is that correct?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's what my planning made provision for that.

MR DORFLING: It would also provide for those marchers to then either turn westerly or easterly into Plein Street, is that correct?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: That's correct, Mr Chairman, if the marchers were marching like the other groups which passed the front of Shell House I don't think the potential referred to would have been there but I think with a doubt of the situation very differently.  That march and other factors surrounding that march is very different to other marches.  I don't think the fact that we were there is the cause of the shooting itself.  All the factors I explained is the cause of ...[inaudible] - three other groups marched past Shell House - we did nothing although we were provoked to the extreme I think.

MR DORFLING: Would I be correct in saying that the main entrance of Shell House is about half way down the block in between King George and Plein Streets from the Plein Street side?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: I would say it's stretches from the court - the entrance is very wide it's not one door, it's a lot of doors.  It's in the centre of the street but it's quite wide.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something, is it Plein Street that the main entrance is in because yesterday we thought it was "Klein".

GARY JOHN KRUSER: It's Plein Street.

MR DORFLING: At what distance would you put the - what is the distance in your estimation from the corner of King George and Plein up to the entrance in Plein Street?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Repeat that?

MR DORFLING: At what distance would you put the distance between the corners of King George and Plein and the entrance in Plein Street?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: Probably ten, fifteen metres I think to the nearest, I don't know, I think there's a map.

MR DORFLING: I've got a number of other questions I would like to put to this witness, I see that it's lunch time now, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn now and resume at two o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION

MR DORFLING: Mr Chairman, I've made available some further copies of the document that was handed to the witness, the pages 261 to 270 - I believe one copy was taken from the Committee, may I just beg leave to replace the copy that was given to the witness?

SISI KHAMPEPE: You can keep it because I already have another copy.

MR DORFLING: The Committee Member concerned seems to have another one already.
	Mr Chairman, if I may just refer to the affidavits of the applicant and the specific responses relating to the questions put in the Attorney General's letter.  I've now got the portions of the record that reflect the questions to which these responses was forthcoming and I would like to deal with that specifically.
	Now, Mr Kruser, in your one supplementary affidavit you make reference to the letter of the Attorney General dated the 23rd of September 1996?

GARY JOHN KRUSER: (s.u.o.)
	Can you just maybe indicate to me which affidavit it is?

MR DORFLING: (cont)
	I'm dealing with page 17 of your Application for Amnesty and particularly paragraph 6 thereof.

SISI KHAMPEPE: Mr Dorfling, it would appear that members of the public are not getting any translation.