Amnesty Hearings — Bloemfontein — 1997-03-27

MR VISSER: Referring to Mr Venter?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was referring to the political objective that we were supposed to attain as a Security Police branch, that is our duties to remove political activists and liberation movements, but it was not based on Mr Venter.  But if he was part of the people I've mentioned I would have done that.  If he was disturbing our activities, our politics, I would have done my best to diminish his duties.

MR VISSER: Sorry Mr Ngo, may I perhaps try to make it easier.  Was Mr Venter a political activist?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I would not say that he was an activist.  All I know that he was a member of the workers' struggle.  If he was involved with them then I take him as a political activist.

MR VISSER: So which is it now, was he or wasn't he a political activist in your book?  You've now given two diametrically opposed answers.  At first you said you don't think, you won't describe him as such and then you said he was.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I knew that he was informing about political activities, whether he was an activist himself I do not know.  But I knew that he had some relationship with people
involved in politics, but if he was involved then I had to treat him like the rest.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Mr Visser can I just interrupt, sorry to interrupt, now Mr Ngo, did you, by killing Mr Venter, hope to achieve any political objective?  If your answer is yes, then what was that political objective that you sought to achieve?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: What I wanted to achieve was if he did not want to cooperate and because he turned against us, I had to remove him as part of the police.

MR VISSER: And was that your personal view of the state of affairs, the answer you've just given was that your personal conviction?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: What I understood is that if he was not cooperating with us I had to suppress and remove him.

MR VISSER: You see there's a difference and that was Judge Mgoepe's question to you, I think, the question is what did you want to achieve by eliminating Mr Venter and you gave an answer.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was not killing him out of my personal interest, it was in the interest of the police, protecting the police against his duty....

MR VISSER: Are you saying that you yourself personally had no objective to achieve by eliminating Mr Venter, is that what you are saying or am I being unfair to you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: To make sure that our job was done at the end of the day I had to do what I did.

MR VISSER: Not because you were told to do it, but because you felt that's what you had to do?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was following instructions.  I had no political objectives, it was just following instructions.

MR VISSER: You had no political objective, alright.  Mr Ngo, please tell the Committee, on your own knowledge was Mr Venter a participant in the liberation movement?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I never saw him participating I was just told that he is taking part.

MR VISSER: And who told you that, Erasmus or who?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: It's Lieutenant Erasmus.

MR VISSER: Oh, yes.

JUDGE WILSON: That he was taking part in the liberation movement?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: You've never mentioned this before, have you?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I was just responding to the question asked in the form as to what did I want to achieve.

JUDGE WILSON: The question you were just asked by counsel, as I understood it was, was Mr Venter taking part in the liberation movement.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He didn't take part in the liberation movement that I'm aware of.

MR VISSER: And did Erasmus tell you that he was taking part in such liberation movement?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: He told me that he is a member of the workers' struggle.

MR VISSER: Why don't you just answer the question?  The question is a simple one.  Did Erasmus tell you that Venter was participating in the liberation movement?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Not in the liberation movement.

MR VISSER: Right.  Was Venter a member of the military wing of an organisation?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No Sir.

MR VISSER: Did anybody tell you that he was?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Nobody ever told me that.

MR VISSER: So why is it here in paragraph 10A?

MR NEMANE: With due respect My Lord this is misleading, the applicant has stated that he was here describing the function of the Security Branch.  He was not saying that the deceased was seen as an activist or a member of the military wing who had to be eliminated for that reason.  And the question as phrased My Lord is not fair to the applicant.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Ngo how long did you stay with Mr Venter, all in all?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I stayed 14 days in his house since I sustained injuries, and then the stitches were removed and then I was taken to Ladybrand where I was to study.

ADV DE JAGER: And afterwards?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: Having completed my studies I went to training and I used to see him monthly or just give him a call as a contact who took money to my family.

ADV DE JAGER: Now I want to put to you what Mrs Sarkardi is saying, she is the sister of the deceased, and we have just received a letter from her in response to the fact that she had been notified that the application would proceed, and she is saying, after the murder,
"After the murder Mr Ngo himself drove around with the vehicle of the deceased, and put petrol in at filling stations and then simply drove off without paying for the petrol".
Is this correct or not?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: When?

ADV DE JAGER: That was after the murder.

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: That is not true Sir.

ADV DE JAGER: Then she proceeds to say,
"The relationship between the deceased and my brother was a relationship of trust.  The accused lived on the property of my brother and worked there as a gardener.  My brother trusted him to such an extent that once a week he also worked for my mother as gardener.  Even when I and my children visited my brother during school holidays in Bloemfontein and while my brother worked during the day he trust the accused entirely with us around the house.   The accused himself was a police official during the event.  At that time he was suspended because of other accusations against him, amongst others for assault.  My brother paid for the schooling of the accused and even for his transport to the place where he received the training.  When Mr Ngo went for training at the Police College at a later stage my brother continued to support him financially".
Is this correct?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: No, what I know is that I was visiting them as he was my contact.  I was just visiting, I was not staying there.  He used to lend me money and I used to do the same if he had problems as somebody that I trusted.  And there's nothing more than that, other than trust.  And we had a good relationship. And Mrs Sarkardi, I used to see her when she was visiting during holidays but it would be at two days or three.  The truth is that I did help him whilst I was visiting before I went home should he have a lot of work to do on his premises, Mr Venter.

ADV DE JAGER: So you had a long relationship with Mr
Venter, not only a 14 days' relationship and then a few occasional meetings?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I am talking about the time I spent on Mr Venter's premises, it was 14 days and when I came back from College I sent my clothing in a briefcase to him and all the things that he must give to my sisters and brothers I used to pass his place when I was coming home, but I was not staying there.

ADV DE JAGER: And when did you work in the garden?

MPHITHIZELI NELSON NGO: I don't remember, it would have been one of the weekends whilst I was just visiting him on a Saturday.

ADV DE JAGER: And when did you work in his mother's garden?