Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 1998-02-09

UNKNOWN: It seems from other testimony, which will also be led, that one of the drinks that Mr Kondile was given had a sleeping pill in it, do you have any knowledge of that?

MR DU PLESSIS: No I did not have any knowledge of that.

UNKNOWN: Was it the first time that you had any experience of this that a person was shot to death in such circumstances?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: What was the result of this on you?

MR DU PLESSIS: I think that I still have the scars of that today.  It was very difficult for me to think rationally during that time and one tried to see as little as possible and to get it over and done with as soon as possible but I can tell you that it seems like an eternity.

UNKNOWN: You have testified more completely than in your application but do you confirm what is in page 14, 15, 16 and 17 of your application?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: On page 17 you mention that you and van Rensburg had the idea that Kondile's body had to be left on the Mozambique side of the border, was that the initial plan?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And how did it happen that the body was burnt?

MR DU PLESSIS: This was a suggestion which came from Mr Coetzee.

UNKNOWN: Were you next to the river?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, not as far as I know.

UNKNOWN: Let me put it so, could you see the river from where you were?

MR DU PLESSIS: No I could not see a river.

UNKNOWN: So you did not know how far you were?

MR DU PLESSIS: No.

UNKNOWN: Mr du Plessis on pages 18, 19 and 20 you deal with the political objectives as well as your own political motivations, is that correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Do you confirm that?

MR DU PLESSIS: I do.

UNKNOWN: Let us try to summarise what you are trying to tell the Commission in this.  By 1981 what was the political situation in this country regarding the struggle between the ANC on the one hand and the South African Government on the other hand?

MR DU PLESSIS: It was a tremendous struggle which escalated on a daily basis.

UNKNOWN: And as Security policemen what was your function?

MR DU PLESSIS: We were a buffer between the government on the one hand and the ANC on the other.  This was not only on one occasion but on several occasions we were told by senior officers, by politicians that we were the last vestige and that it had to be our task ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think that the term "vestige" may have been an interpretation which might not have been intended.  Mr Booyens the word "vestige" has been used, "we were the last "vestige", there may be some other interpretation.

UNKNOWN: I think the word used by the witness was "vesting" which would be interpreted as the "last bastion" basically.

INTERPRETER: The last bastion.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) of what?

MR DU PLESSIS: We were the only ones who could prevent the ANC from overthrowing the National Party.

UNKNOWN: And were you told this continually?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Let us just generalise a bit more.  One often gets the impression that people do not realise exactly how this cooperation was, did you have any knowledge, for example, of cooperation, I am now speaking about high level cooperation between the South African Defence Force and the South African Police as regards the fight against terrorism?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: To just place this in context you were later transferred to Head Office is that correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

UNKNOWN: That's Security head office?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And did you hear about a Simon's Town conference?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes I did.

UNKNOWN: In a nutshell what was this about, this is now the knowledge that you gained afterwards, you were not present there?

MR DU PLESSIS: Briefly it boils down to the fact that certain areas, in certain areas the Defence Force would act and in other areas the police force would act.  Swaziland was kept aside for the Security Police because there was very good cooperation.

UNKNOWN: And if you speak about taking action what action are you referring to?  Is this action against the enemies of the government at that stage?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Many of those incidents are public record today, did you have any knowledge of operations which were launched by Security forces abroad where some of these people were eliminated, killed?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Was their cooperation, did you have instructions to work together with their Defence Force?

MR DU PLESSIS: If we did not have the instructions we would not have cooperated with the Defence Force. So it boils down to the fact that we did have instructions to work with certain members of the Defence Force and so doing to allow them when we were present to interrogate the trained ANC cadres.

UNKNOWN: Did you assist the Defence Force in target development?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes that's where it started, so that they could do target analysis.

UNKNOWN: Were you aware of the fact that on a high level there was cooperation in order to fight the enemy?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: When you were at head office later did you also have knowledge of the fact that at that level as well planning had been done regarding the struggle against the people?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you just tell us, when did you go to Head Office, when were you transferred?

MR DU PLESSIS: End '89.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you have an idea when this Simon's Town summit was?

MR DU PLESSIS: No I cannot remember.

UNKNOWN: As regards the question of Mr de Jager at middle '89 there was already the cooperation between yourself and the Defence Force.

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

UNKNOWN: So the Simon's Town summit or conference should have been before then?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes I agree to that.

UNKNOWN: And what you learnt at a later stage were there also priority lists of people who were a threat to the state compiled by certain elements at head office?

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: Once again you were not present there but you heard about this list of names that had been discussed regarding people who were enemies of the State.

MR DU PLESSIS: That's correct.

UNKNOWN: And was this on a high level?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

UNKNOWN: When you decided to eliminate Mr Kondile did you think that you were acting in contravention of State policy or not?

MR DU PLESSIS: I thought that we were in agreement with the State policy, yes.

UNKNOWN: I know that the politicians are saying today that they did not know or that they did nothing or had nothing to