Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1998-06-09

MR DREYER: That is what I mean, we would probably never know precisely what order was given where, because enough has been said about that in cross-examination, but I would like to take you back to your statement that you made on page 187, specifically the beginning of it, page 186, that is now after the initial printed statement.    The following said to this statement
"Captain Van Vuuren said to me that, `Your father said that..."
or it looks like:-
"...that you will not make a statement'."   What is your answer regarding that?    I want to make a statement and speak the truth.   It does not help if I hide things.   I feel sorry for what I did."
Is that correct?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes.   I can give a reason.

MR DREYER: Okay, what was the reason?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: I was attacked by the police, and my father in the presence of that time Captain Van Vuuren, said that I must not make a statement before I've got a lawyer present, and I was attacked by the police to provide them with certain information.   At that stage they already knew almost everything that was said in my statement, because I was the last person who was picked up by the police, and at that stage they knew more or less what everything was about.

MR DREYER: I accept what you said, because I do not carry any other knowledge regarding this to deny it, but you would surely not, in the beginning, make such a decision lightly, because it's clear that your father didn't want you to make a statement at that stage, but you did decide to make one?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: I did not have much of a choice.

MR DREYER: I do accept that, but all that I'd like to know is that we have heard your version today about where and when this instruction was received, and I understand why you said why you executed this order.   On page 187 of the same statement, at the end of the last paragraph, there they talk about the roadhouse
"We planned to pull off a taxi."
My copy is not very clear:-
"We had to search for weapons.   We made this decision at the roadhouse.   In other words the shooting as well."
All that I'd like to know is that you say "we made that decision there".   Now if you say "we made that decision", to who do you refer to, who's this "we"?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Mr Chairperson, at the time when I made the statements, really I thought today I was a bit scared giving evidence here, but under that extreme pressure that was placed upon you in the police station, there's so many things that you say that doesn't make sense, which is not logic, and that is also the case here.

MR DREYER: I'm not, I still remain what I said to you, I'm asking, must I understand it that when you say "we decided", is that "we" as "we the soldiers", or "we" according to the instructions that you've got from your commander?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Mr Chairperson, there it should have said that we as a group, through Chief Commandant Kloppers, received an instruction or order that on behalf of General Japie Oelofse, but I just in short spoke here to finish.

MR DREYER: I understand you, if you say "we decided" and "we planned", then you would not have planned it or decided, because you did not have the rank.   The person who gave the orders was Kloppers.    Furthermore in the statement it says, this is now at Martin's smallholding, "after we discussed this plan in detail", is that correct?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes, that is where the plan regarding the roadblock was mentioned.

MR DREYER: And once again you accepted that this is now the execution of order that was given by Oelofse?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Yes.

MR DREYER: Now I asked Mr Kloppers this question and he said that he knows Oelofse and he knows Oelofse's background and he's got respect for him as a military person and he's not someone who would do something in a random way.   All that I would like to know is, why would it have been necessary for him, I'm not talking about you, he is the commander, why would it have been necessary for him to work out a detailed plan as a person with a military background like Oelofse have already given the instruction, then there would have already been a planning stage, why is it necessary to plan further?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: I cannot answer that, that is something that General Oelofse will have to say.

MR DREYER: Is there any reason why, that you can give, why it is not possible that this whole plan of a roadblock and that must happen there was not a creation, or that was created in the mind of Kloppers and that there was never an instruction, is there any reason that you can give that there isn't... (intervention).

MR PRINSLOO: He cannot answer what went on in Kloppers' head, he can speculate and say anything.

CHAIRPERSON: I think maybe the question should be rephrased... (intervention).

MR DREYER: I'll do so.

CHAIRPERSON: ...and put to him in the more conventional way.   I mean ask him, would you dispute the fact that Oelofse never gave such an order to Kloppers, or would you not?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Mr Chairperson, as I said, I trusted my commander and everybody who had a higher rank than I, I never doubted their word, and I don't think there's any soldier who would do that.   They must trust their higher rank.

CHAIRPERSON: Look, it is actually being put to you that Oelofse denies that he gave such an order to Klopper, but on the other hand, Kloppers told you that Oelofse did give him such an order.   What is your comment there?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Mr Chairperson, I was not in that order session, so I don't know what was said there, I only executed my orders that was given to me by Chief Commandant Kloppers, I was not in the orders group.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't want to put in the final word into your mouth, but I thought you would tidy up your answer.   So you would neither agree nor disagree with any one of them, because you were not there when the order was given, the supposed order was given to Kloppers, you were not there?   You can't say Klopper is lying or Oelofse is lying?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: I don't know.   That is a question that must be put to Kloppers.   I don't believe that he... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: I do not believe that he lied.

CHAIRPERSON: Who?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Chief Commandant Klopper.

CHAIRPERSON: So Oelofse would lie to us if he says that he never gave the order?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Mr Chairperson, I wasn't there in the order group, how can I say that he lied or not?

CHAIRPERSON: Well give us now your final answer regarding this scenario, it is very easy.   Mr Badenhorst, the question is very simple, Mr Dreyer says that Mr Oelofse allegedly never gave such an order.   The question to you is, can you deny that, is it possible for you to deny it or not?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: I am not, I cannot say if it occurred or not, because I wasn't there.

MR DREYER: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, just a last question.  I understand you're not in a position to deny it or not because you were not there and this matter has been cleared up, this whole thing that occurred, you were under the impression that, through Kloppers, that a national revolution will begin on the 13th of December or the 12th of December, and when it was the 16th of December and you were at the festivities and you heard there that nothing came from or happened regarding this alleged national revolution, did you not then started to doubt if such an order was given?   Can I qualify it, did you not then doubt that such an order really did come from Oelofse, because nothing else happened?

FREDERICK JACOBUS BADENHORST: Mr Chairperson, at that time various bombings occurred in that same period of time, and I believed that it was still continuing.