Amnesty Hearings — Potchefstroom — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: At that point in time when we turned with the intention to go back home he was still following us and co-accused shot him.

CHAIRPERSON: No evidence has been led about the attempted murder charges and so on.  What is it all about?

UNKNOWN: The two attempted murder charges I know nothing about them.  I was just told that we attempted to murder David (name indistinct) as well.

JUDGE WILSON: So you are not asking for amnesty for the two attempted murder charges.  You say you know nothing about them, the two attempted murder charges.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I know nothing about them.  I was just told about them.  I know nothing about the two attempted murders.

UNKNOWN: .... Scarface, who was with the deceased at the time when he was shot?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Scarface had a gun but I didn't see the
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rest clearly.  I only saw the deceased and Scarface, they had guns.

UNKNOWN: How far away from the deceased was Scarface?  He is a policeman who accompanied the deceased at the time when he was shot?

UNKNOWN: Yes, it is so.

UNKNOWN: When the deceased was shot by Mr Ncube, how far was Scarface from the deceased?

UNKNOWN: It was the deceased in front and David Maseko behind him and then Scarface behind David Maseko.

JUDGE WILSON: Was evidence led at your trial about the two attempted murders that you say you know nothing about?

UNKNOWN: When I was arrested I was just told about these murder and two attempted murders.

JUDGE WILSON: Was evidence led at your trial about the two attempted murders?

UNKNOWN: Yes, the people that we attempted to kill were in court.

JUDGE WILSON: Did they give evidence and tell the Judge how it was you attempted to murder them?

UNKNOWN: Yes, they gave evidence to say that we did try to kill them.

JUDGE WILSON: Who were  they?

UNKNOWN: It was David Maseko and the Sgoqo.  I don't remember his first name.

JUDGE WILSON: Were they the two people who were with the  deceased?

UNKNOWN: Yes,  they were  with the deceased.

JUDGE WILSON: Were they  injured?

UNKNOWN: Yes, they did say in court they never got any injuries.
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JUDGE WILSON: /..
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JUDGE WILSON: They never got any injuries.

UNKNOWN: Yes, they never  got any injuries.

JUDGE WILSON: And did they tell the magistrate, it wasn't a Judge, I see, that this all took place at the same time as when the deceased was shot?

UNKNOWN: Can you repeat your question,  Sir?

JUDGE WILSON: Did they tell the magistrate that you tried to kill them in the same incident at the same time as the deceased was murdered, was killed?

UNKNOWN: Yes, they did tell the court that we did try to kill them.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: What did they say?  How did they say you tried to kill them?

UNKNOWN: They didn't explain to the court as to how did we intend to kill them.  They didn't tell the court clearly as to how did we try to kill them.  I saw David Maseko for  the first time in court.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: ....  I wasn't there, but I have severe doubts as to whether they can just get into the witness box and say nothing as to how you tried to kill them.    Surely they must have said something, even if you didn't agree with them.  Just tell us what they said how you tried to kill  them.

UNKNOWN: I don't remember what happened to them clearly.  I saw them for the first time in court when they said that we tried to kill them and David Maseko was in gaol and it was for the first time when I saw him in court.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: In court what did he say you went about trying to kill him?  Did he say you tried to chop him with a panga, did he say you shot at him?  What did he say?

UNKNOWN: He never explained to the court as to how did
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we try to kill him.  That's what puzzles me because all the time he was in gaol and I saw him for the first time in court.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: I really don't think that you -  what
standard did you pass at school, Sir?

UNKNOWN: I passed Std 8.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: When was that?

UNKNOWN: I passed my Std 8 in 1992.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: For a person who has passed Std 8 I would expect that if somebody came into court and said you wanted to kill him in this way and that way, I would expect you to can remember what that person said about you.   That was very serious.   You have gone to gaol as a result of that isn't it?

UNKNOWN: I don't know as to why does he say that I tried to kill him.  I just knew him that he was staying at 685.  I've never met him before.

JUDGE WILSON: You had somebody defending you didn't you at the trial?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I had a State advocate.

JUDGE WILSON: And are you asking us to believe that a witness just got into the witness box and said he tried to kill me and your advocate didn't ask any questions as to how you tried to kill him?  Are you asking us to believe that?

UNKNOWN: Yes, he did say in court that we tried to  kill him but he didn't explain to the court as to how and why did we try to kill him.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Faltein, could you tell us how many shots did the  deceased fire?

UNKNOWN: The first shot, it was in the air, and the rest he was shooting us as we were running along.  I only heard the one that he shot in the air.
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I never heard  anything afterwards.

CHAIRPERSON: The firearm that you carried, was that licensed?

UNKNOWN: No, it was not licensed.

CHAIRPERSON: What sort of firearm was it?

UNKNOWN: It is a 765.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did it belong to?

UNKNOWN: I had the weapon, I was using it.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did it belong to?

UNKNOWN: It was mine.

JUDGE WILSON: How did you get possession of an unlicensed firearm?

UNKNOWN: We got the firearms from the vigilante gangster group members.  As we fought with them we took the firearms from them.

UNKNOWN: Mr Faltein, was Mr Mayeko aiming at yourself or was he aiming at Mr Ncube when he was shooting?

UNKNOWN: He was pointing in our direction, not to anyone specific.

ADV DE JAGER: You said you got the gun from the vigilantes when you fought with them.  You got the gun from the vigilantes, the 765, is that correct?

UNKNOWN: Yes, I got it whilst we were fighting  amongst the groups and I would pick it up if anyone dropped it whilst during the fight.

ADV DE JAGER: Only  one further questions.  How many shots, did Ncube fire at the  deceased or at the other persons with the deceased?  How many shots were fired on that day?  You've told us the deceased fired one shot in the air.  How many other shots were fired?

UNKNOWN: The other shots that were fired were by the
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policemen that were accompanying the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Which policeman, Scarface?

UNKNOWN: Yes, Scarface did it.

BERNARD MAKGABO NGOEPE: Let's just get this clear.  Were you not given a firearm - or let me put it to you this way.  Your evidence is not that you were given a firearm by the ANC Youth League or the SDU to protect the community.  That  firearm you got from the gangsters.

UNKNOWN: Yes, I picked the firearm during the faction fights in the street.

JUDGE WILSON: Was the person who used to own the firearm injured in the fight?

UNKNOWN: No, I never saw the owner of the firearm.  I just saw the firearm because it was a lot of people.

CHAIRPERSON: ... about these faction fights.    What are the faction fights about?

UNKNOWN: These gangsters, they were fighting with activists.  They came to a night vigil of a comrade and then they shot people there in the night vigil.

CHAIRPERSON: How many faction fights have there been?

UNKNOWN: It started in 1990 and then it subsided in  1991 in the location.

CHAIRPERSON: There have been many faction fights.

UNKNOWN: As I see, from 1990 up to 1991, there was no peace in the location but only in 1991 onwards.