Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

GEORGE BIZOS: Although these entries are not in your handwriting, the committee has a copy of it and you've told us that it appears to be a continuous record.   In it there are numerous entries of the comforts that were provided to Mrs Derby-Lewis, and also statements that she had no complaints.    Did she ever complain to you about anyone else ill-treating her during her detention or compelling her in any way from making any statement?   Sorry, apparently my mike goes off.   Shall I repeat the question?    Although these entries are not in your own handwriting, they set out what was done for her and how her requests were met, and on numerous occasions that she had no complaint.    What I want to ask you is that the relationship that you had with her, which you say was a friendly one, did she herself complain about anyone having ill-treated her or had induced her in any way to make any false statements?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: She had no complaints at all.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, were you a member of the investigation team in relation to the murder of Mr Hani in a full-time capacity, or had you been called in merely for the purposes of obtaining a statement from Mrs Derby-Lewis?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Mr Chairman, no, I was part of the investigation team, right from the beginning to the end.  I had various tasks and at that stage Colonel Van Niekerk tasked me to question her and obtain a statement from her, would she be willing to give one.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you apprise Colonel Van Niekerk of any portions of the statement as it was being prepared by you and Mrs Derby-Lewis?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That is correct, Mr Chairman.   I was tasked that report should be provided to headquarters in Pretoria every day regarding the progress in our investigation, information which we could obtain from the statement by means of questioning would have to be provided to head office.   At certain stages, on a daily basis, and sometimes every second day, I went to Benoni and took parts of her statement to the colonel.   I presented it to him, he read it, and told me that he does not agree with certain parts of the statement, because her husband or Mr Janusz Walus made different, provided different information.   I was unaware of what was contained in the statements of these two gentlemen.  I just accepted that her statement was correct.  He tasked me, I went back to her and said,
"Mrs Lewis, certain parts of this statement differ from Derby-Lewis's and Walus's statements".
	She asked me what the differences were, and I told her, and then she would say yes, now she remembered, she had made a mistake.   
	One incident I can remember, she told me that her husband had never showed her any firearm, and when I indicated that difference, she said yes, now she remembered, and she made the changes herself.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you put any pressure on her to agree or disagree with the information that you had obtained from Colonel Van Niekerk?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: I did not put any pressure on her, I just told her that the colonel had said that some parts of her statements differed from those of Walus and Derby-Lewis, and if she said that was correct, I left it at that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did she ever contradict the information that was given to you by the colonel, and say, "No, that information is incorrect", did she ever say that, did she feel free to say that?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: In all honesty, Mr Chairman, it could have been, but I can't remember.   It could have been that at that part of the statement, she left it was it was and said that was what happened.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now, I want you to please have a look at R4, pages 149 to 163.

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Chairman, could we just get the page number again please?

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, 149 to 163 of R4, Mr Chairman.   I notice some difficulty with Judge Wilson's papers - as long as it's there, thank you.
	Now, is this a statement which was signed by Mrs Derby-Lewis?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: And does your signature also appear on there?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Yes, page 163, on the right-hand top side.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you, at the time that you signed this, or before that, induce her in any way, or threaten her in any way, to sign this statement?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: I would never have done that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Would you please have a look at 164 to 195?   In whose handwriting is this?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That is the handwriting of Mrs Derby-Lewis.

GEORGE BIZOS: And does her signature appear at page 195?   It's the last page of the handwritten...

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That's correct, at the bottom there is my signature, my details and my address.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you at any time either threaten or induce her in any manner to write this statement out or to sign it?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: No.   It was with her full co-operation and it was done voluntarily.   There was never any kind of threat.

GEORGE BIZOS: Insofar as she may have complained about being tired or not entirely in her full and sober senses, do you consider this, looking at it, as a consequential and well-written statement in an excellent handwriting?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: I would have to agree with that.

GEORGE BIZOS: Could you please turn to page 211?   Whose handwriting - 211 to page 239 - could we go to the bottom of 238, whose signature is that?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That is my signature, with my details.

GEORGE BIZOS: That's on 239, go to 238, at the bottom of the page, 238, right at the bottom of the page, whose signature is that?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That is the signature of Mrs Derby-Lewis.

GEORGE BIZOS: And who wrote this statement?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Mrs Derby-Lewis.

GEORGE BIZOS: And there are, there is at least one alteration on that page, who is it initialled by?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Mrs Derby-Lewis made these deletions herself, she signed there and it was police regulations that the officer present would also place his initials and his rank, as well as the date, there.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.   Did you exercise any undue influence on her in any kind in order to sign this statement?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Not at all.

GEORGE BIZOS: Please go to page 260 to 268.   This is headed
"Reply to queries on my statement for Colonel Van Niekerk, 27.4.93."
Would this have been the response of Mrs Derby-Lewis to the queries of Colonel Van Niekerk?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: In whose handwriting is this?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Mrs Derby-Lewis's handwriting.

GEORGE BIZOS: And if you go to page 268, is there a signature there?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That of Mrs Derby-Lewis.

GEORGE BIZOS: And did you exercise any influence on her to write this out and sign it?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: And finally, would you please turn to page 281.  Who wrote this document out?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That is her handwriting, the handwriting of Mrs Derby-Lewis.

GEORGE BIZOS: This apparently is also a response to other queries that were made presumably by Colonel Van Niekerk?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That's correct.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did you exercise any undue influence on her of any manner whatsoever in order to write this out and to sign it?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: Not at all.

GEORGE BIZOS: May I have a moment please, Mr Chairman, I want to confer with my colleague?   Did you suggest to her what words she should use in referring to Mr Hani as the enemy, or suggesting to her how she should express herself, particularly in English?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: No.

GEORGE BIZOS: Thank you, Mr Chairman and members of the committee, we have no more questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS

MR PRINSLOO: Captain, I noted that you worked under the command of Major General Du Toit, is that correct?

JONAS HENDRIK DE WAAL: That is correct, chairperson.