Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-11-17

MR TSHABALALA: No, it wasn't like that.  What happened was a mistake, we were just defending ourselves because we knew that he was a person who had firearms and we were scared and also the way he was fighting us, one could tell that if he could get a chance we were going to die.  He was fighting very strongly.

ADV SANDI: Before you came to this farm, did you have any intention in your mind to assault the deceased?  Was this part of your plan at all?

MR TSHABALALA: No, our aim was, we were going to hold him and just tie him up and take his firearms, but it didn't happen that way because he was very strong and he was fighting and it looked like if he could have got a chance he was going to kill us, that's what caused his death.

ADV SANDI: Before you came to this farm, or let me put it this way, when you took the decision to go and attack the deceased, did you know the political affiliation of your co-accused, the other two gentlemen?

MR TSHABALALA: I knew that they were supporters, that's why I went to them and that's I was sharing ideas with them because I knew that they were supporters of the ANC.

ADV SANDI: Did you also drink the liquor on the farm?

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I did, in fact most of my participation was after I had drunk, like putting his body in the boiler, this happened after I had drunk.  When I cut his body, it was after I had taken alcohol.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you at any stage discuss this plan that you and your former co-accused had with ...(intervention - speaking simultaneously)

MR TSHABALALA: You mean before the incident?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR TSHABALALA: Yes, we sat down and we talked about this.  We discussed about this because we had a problem.  We needed firearms and that's why we chose the deceased, because we were looking for firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but apart from discussing it amongst yourselves, did you discuss this idea, this plan with anybody other than amongst the three of you?

MR TSHABALALA: It was our secret, the three of us.  We didn't reveal this to anyone and also the fact that I didn't have any shelter and these were the people who were helping me, so I asked them to help me and I told them that the people who had killed my family were after me, they wanted to kill me, therefore I went to them and we spoke among ourselves that we were going to go to that farm and take the guns and the plan didn't include murdering the deceased, but it was all about taking his guns.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.  Have you got any re-examination Mr Sewpal?

MR SEWPAL: Sorry, no re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tshabalala, you're excused.  Thank you.

MR TSHABALALA: Thank you.
WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sewpal?

MR SEWPAL: I call Pilane Thembo Mutshiako.

CHAIRPERSON: Just give us a minute.

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: (sworn states)

MR SEWPAL: Mr Mutshiako, where did you live during 1990?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: In Estcourt.

MR SEWPAL: And do you know the previous witness Mandla Richard Tshabalala?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: Yes, I do.

MR SEWPAL: Where did he live during that time?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: He resided at my home.

MR SEWPAL: Were you at that stage a member or supporter of any political organisation?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: I was an ANC supporter.

MR SEWPAL: Now can you tell us why the previous witness, Mandla Tshabalala was living with you?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: He came to me and he was in distress that his mother had been killed by Inkatha.  They had also burned down his home.  That is how he came to live with us,

MR SEWPAL: Okay.  And you were convicted of the murder of the deceased in this case, together with two other people.  Can you please tell us how it came about that you got involved in the killing of the deceased?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: When I came upon them, the deceased was on top of accused number 2.  That is when I assaulted him with a pipe on the head twice.  He fell off and then the other person, Mandla Tshabalala, came and also stabbed him.

MR SEWPAL: Can you tell me why you got involved in the killing of the deceased?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: It was not our intention to kill him, but we were looking for firearms.  On seeing that he was fighting and accused number 2 was now below him, I also saw intestines protruding, I could not tell whether they belonged to the white man or accused number 2.  That was when I hit him on the head.

MR SEWPAL: What made you think that the deceased had firearms?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: He usually sold the firearms to Stanley Ngombe.  He would come to our area regularly.

MR SEWPAL: How do you know this?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: I was once employed by Stanley because he owned a shop and his shop was burned down because of the violence.

MR SEWPAL: Now which organisation did this person Stanley belong to?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: He was initially an IFP member, up until his death.

MR SEWPAL: Do you know when Mandla's mother died?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: I was informed by Mandla that his mother was burned when the house was also burned down.  I did not get information about other injuries that she sustained.

MR SEWPAL: Okay.  Now what did you want these guns for?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: We would have used them to pay revenge on the IFP member who had burned down Mandla's home.

MR SEWPAL: Okay.  Now could you describe what happened when you got to the deceased's home?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: When we arrived the white man ran into a dairy.  He then closed all the doors, there were three of them, so each one of us stood outside a door.  He tried to get out using the door at which accused number 2 was standing.  He had two iron pipes in his hands and they started fighting and on our arrival, we found that the white man was on top of accused number 2 and there were intestines protruding and you could not tell whether they belonged to the white man or accused number 2.  We then assaulted him twice on the head with an iron pipe and he fell off, at which time Mandla stabbed him twice.

MR SEWPAL: What happened after that?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: Thereafter we looked for a key to his home and on our way, we encountered a dog that was tied next to a vehicle.  We then went to his body and cut out the liver and his scrotum and the penis, which we threw, we threw the liver to the dog.  The rest were just left in a container.  The dog did not eat the rest because it had moved from the vehicle.  We then went to the vehicle, found the key, then went into the house.  Mandla and myself searched inside the house for the firearms.  We didn't find guns, we just found ammunition.  We then came across a bottle of alcohol which we drank up.  We would go out to look outside.  Accused number two was still searching in the car.  We would also go out to assist him there.  We then decided that we should take the body to the boiler room.  We then put him there to burn him and we thought that his body would be burned to ashes.

MR SEWPAL: What would you say was your motive in going to attack the deceased?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: It was the acquisition of firearms.  That was all we wanted because that is what we had discussed and agreed upon.  We had not intended to kill him.

MR SEWPAL: And you wanted to acquire those firearms, for what purpose?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: There was an ANC chairperson in the area, Mr Stanley Ngombe, we had intended to attack that Mr Ngombe and any other IFP member who would come out supporting Mr Ngombe.

MR SEWPAL: Did you remove any other body parts from the deceased's body, apart from that which you've mentioned?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: I would not be in a position to dispute or admit that because we had drunk alcohol, we were drunk by that time, so there was nothing that I could, at the time, see clearly.

MR SEWPAL: Now, you made an application for amnesty yourself, during 1996, did you not?

PILANE THEMBO MUTSHIAKO: That's correct.