Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-05-09

WITNESS:   It's because maybe I also heard from my father.  From when our elder brother disappeared in 1961, there was a special branch from Empangeni used to come to my father at home.  It would mean that there is someone among those special branch that my father got to know very well.  They didn't come and harass us like other families used to be harassed.  I would say my father - they would come to my father, sit down with him and discuss with him, until that police, when Ndo had disappeared in 1981, until he appeared again in 1987, my father saw these police at Eshowe.  Unfortunately, I do not know his name, but my father does know the name of this police.  My father told this police about Ndo and he said his young son had disappeared.  These are the people who used to see each other and they would discuss about these people who had disappeared.  My father told the policeman that the younger one didn't come back.  We don't know where he is.  This is the police who said, oh, he knows about Ndo.  He is there somewhere in Transvaal.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  You say that you know the policeman, but you can't remember his name or where he is.  Perhaps you can find that out from your father.  Where is your father?   /---   He is

DR BORAINE: 14A/26

WITNESS:   He is here with one of my sisters in Durban.  We can find out the name of this policeman, because he knows this policeman.

DR BORAINE: Thank you.  That will be helpful.  We really want to help you to find Ndo, if he is alive, and we just wanted to make clear as to who we should ask.  When was the last time that you talked with the ANC about Ndo?

WITNESS:   When my brother came for the last time, they went with my other brother, Themba.  They went to Zuma.  That's what we gathered.  They reported this to Zuma that we haven't seen this boy, Ndo.  We don't know how we could go about establishing his whereabouts.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Mgojo.

KHOZA MGOJO: Thank you.  Mama Zungu, there is something I would like to understand here.  You said two things.  The first thing you said that at the time that your brother arrived at home and then he was free, but you also began to be suspicious of him, he was able to meet other boys there who are neighbours.  Is that the truth?

WITNESS:   Yes, it is the truth, because now he was no longer scared.  He used to talk to them, the neighbour's boys.  He would sit down with them outside our house.

KHOZA MGOJO: Among these boys, was there somebody who had befriended him very well?

WITNESS:   There was one who is also still crying about him when we talk about Ndo.  He really seems to sympathise with us, since we don't find Ndo, but in their friendship I don't know if there was anything they had organized.  Ndo was a very open person.  He was a very sociable person.  That was his nature.  But when he came back and he wasn't scared with them, he

KHOZA MGOJO: /stayed

KHOZA MGOJO: 14A/28 stayed with me and my family.  He was showing his real nature, being sociable, discussing with people.  That was one thing he didn't talk to me about.  When I asked him about his disappearance and these cars he was driving he wouldn't say anything to me at all.  He just kept so quiet.  Even when I tried and tried just a little bit, he would say nothing to me.  He never ever talked about what was happening.

KHOZA MGOJO: The last question.  Ndo of MK, as you've already said, in the township the boys in certain ages or stages those who were with him, what were they?   Who are these boys?   Those neighbours, what organization did they belong to?

WITNESS:   In the section where I live, most of those people, they are ANC people.

CHAIRPERSON: Ilan Lax.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.  Mama Zungu, just one question.  I didn't catch your answer very well to the situation where Yelef and Themba went to speak to Mr Zuma to find out about your brother and I didn't catch clearly what Mr Zuma's answer was to you about where your brother was or whether there was any answer.  Perhaps you could help us, please.

WITNESS:   I just heard that they had done that.  They had gone to see Zuma.  I didn't get what Zuma had promised them.  I didn't get that he got any information from Zuma.  I personally didn't get that, but I do know that they did do that.  They went to Zuma, because I heard about it, but what Zuma said or promised or anything he said I didn't get myself.  I really don't know.

MR LAX: I see.  Just by way of following up the ... [break in recording] ... where in your statement it says that the  /ANC

MR LAX: 14A/30 ANC told you he was in the Transvaal, is that a mistake?  Because you heard he was in the Transvaal, you've told us, from this security person that your father knew.  So I'm just confused.  In your statement it says that the ANC told you he was in the Transvaal.  We just want to clarify that issue.

WITNESS:   I think that the problem here, it's the information that's also been related to me.  The person who's got the full information about where he is it's my elder brother.  When he arrived for the first time at the end of 1990 he tried to establish - I think that was the time with him and Chris Hani, they were trying to trace where he was.  That's what gave us the picture and the information that he was somewhere in Transvaal.

MR LAX: One very final point.  Where is your elder brother now - Yelef - and would he be willing to come and talk to us and give us whatever information he might have?

WITNESS:  I think if he was here he would have wished to be here to talk to you.  At the moment he is overseas.  He hasn't come back from overseas.  He's still overseas.  It is important that our elder brother stayed overseas for a long time.  It was me who was looking after our parents.  Now that our father is still alive, I am the one who is responsible, as the elder girl in the family and my other sisters, but what worries us a lot is that our father really wishes - he is worried about this, as he is old.  He said he is not going to die until he has heard about his child.  As Yelef is overseas he wants us to make means - make efforts to show that we are looking for Ndo, as he wants to know where is Ndo.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you, Sisi.  Maybe your efforts,
 /combined
14B/1 combined with our efforts, we might all find him where he is.  We thank you very much for coming here to us.  Please pass our regards to your father.
14B/1

DR BORAINE: Mr Chairperson, the final witness in today's session is Mr Krish Govender.  Mr Govender, we'd like to welcome you to the hearings of the Commission.  Your situation is somewhat different - indeed entirely different from any other witness that has appeared in the last four weeks.  I understand that you come to us not as a victim or survivor in the strict sense of those words, but rather as someone who has been very involved in cases and something about the legal system which operated during the span of years under the purview of the Commission.  You have submitted a statement.  We have asked one of our colleagues to assist, in so far as it may be necessary and to ask the initial questions, but before I ask him, obviously I would like you to be upstanding and to take the oath.

KRISH GOVENDER: (Sworn states)

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  You are very welcome and Mr Dlamini will take over from me.  Thank you, Mr Dlamini.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Welcome, Mr Govender.