Human Rights Violation Hearings — Durban — 1996-05-08

MR LAX: Thank you, Yusuf, for a very clear and precise account of what, even after so long, has been a horrifying experience for you and your family.  We've certainly heard, as you know today, and as you've seen in the press, some horrifying stories of similar things that have happened to many, many other people in this country, and we will be hearing a similar story - I think it's the next one we'll be hearing from the same police station as your late brother.  But before I hand over to the Chairperson I have a few short questions to ask.  The first is, even though you have in your own hearts accepted that your brother was driven to suicide, was he the kind of person who, under normal circumstances, would have committed suicide?

WITNESS:   No, he was not that type.  We know it, and all his friends and colleagues confirm it.

MR LAX: The second question relates to a follow up on what you think you would like the Commission to do, and how it should go about following up your evidence and your family's request.  Would you like us to investigate this matter once again and look at it in much more detail?

WITNESS:   Yes, certainly I would like it to be investigated.  I would also like the Commission to assist us in our quest for justice, and maybe thereby help us to achieve the peace and happiness that we need.

MR LAX: As you are aware one of the committees of the Commission is a Reparations and Rehabilitation Committee, and its purpose is to recommend measures for reparation and rehabilitation.  Is there anything that you or your family would request from that committee, and from the Commission in that form?

WITNESS:   Unfortunately that was not an aspect that I queried with my mother when I last spoke to her, but if there is anything I will certainly take the opportunity to let you know.

MR LAX: Thank you.

WITNESS:   And any advice and assistance which the Commission can give us in pursuing our matter with the PPS will be appreciated.

DR BORAINE: Mr Haffajee, I want to express what I am quite sure a lot of Commissioners would like to do, but because of time pressure one has to be quite brief, and that is that I am extremely grateful to you for your candid views.  Apart from the story of your brother's death you have expressed your reservations about the Commission, and let me say that we are possibly the first to acknowledge that this is an imperfect instrument, that it has certain powers and objectives, but there are always limitations, determined in large measure by the nature of the political settlement which took place in this country, I appreciate your comments and sharing with us your reservations about coming here, and yet coming.  Because I hope that this is going to be an encouragement to others who have similar reservations, but for the reasons you advanced decided to come.  Now, you've asked us - or rather in response to a question you've said that you would like the Commission to investigate this one more time to try and see if one can't get to the truth.  I want to ask you a question, and I have no expectation of an answer one way or the other.  I would value your comments.  What we have found being experienced by many people who have come to the Commission is over and over again they have said to us, "We want to know the truth.  We want to find out what happened."  Earlier today, "Who planted the bomb?  Who was responsible for my parents' death?  Who killed my child?" etcetera.  And I think that over and over again we've come to understand that there is a tremendous need to know.  Now, one of the ways in which one can know is by investigation, by trying to find out, by having trained personnel, not hiding, but uncovering, and we will certainly do that.  I want to ask you, if someone came to the Amnesty Committee, which incidentally is open - if they came to the Amnesty Committee and said, "I was there.  I was there when Haffajee died," and explains the nature of what happens, and asks for amnesty for whatever role they played, how would you feel about that?

WITNESS:   In one sense I will be relieved, because I will now be learning something which I did not know before, but it's very much possible that my anger may come to the surface also, and my behaviour thereafter I hope will be gentlemanly.

DR BORAINE: Again I appreciate your candidness with the Commission.  Thank you very much.

DR BORAINE: Mr Haffajee, just one brief question, which ties up your case in fact with a number of cases that we heard in Gauteng last week, where the phrase that arose out of similar instances of so-called suicide was in fact "induced suicide."  I just want to ask, do you think there can be any doubt from the inquest in the minds of the State pathologist, the doctors, the lawyers, the Special Branch who were involved in that inquest - do you think there can in fact have been any doubt in any of their minds about what had actually happened?

WITNESS:   No, there could have been no doubt in their minds.  I think the evidence was very clear, and they chose to look at it from another angle.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.  Just to add our own deep condolences, for what they are worth.  We have been listening to very harrowing accounts, and hearing about the pain of so many people.  We hope that just the fact of having people listen to you, without seeking to pass judgment on how you feel and how you react as a result of your pain, may to some extent help to assuage that pain. And I am glad that you have said that this is the first chance that you have had, as it were, of unburdening yourself and having an official body listen so that you could put, as it were, your side of the story, where you have carried this for all of these years since 1977.  And we have heard the views that you have expressed, and we take those very seriously into account when we work out what the recommendations are that we want to bring to the President.  Thank you very much.

WITNESS:   Thank you.

DR BORAINE: Mr Mayi, you have somebody with you.  Could you tell us who that is please?

MAMELA MAYI: He's the person who is accompanying me.  I am on my own.

DR BORAINE: I am very grateful you have a friend and have somebody to come with you.  That's very reassuring, and I hope that that's going to make you feel more relaxed, at ease.  We are not as bad as we look.  We are your friends.  We want to only hear what is in your heart.  And you have come to tell us about your cousin, Bhayampini Mzizi.  Thank you very much.  I am not going to ask you any more questions, except I have to ask you to please stand so that you can take the oath.

MAMELA MAYI: (Sworn, States)

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.  Please feel very, very relaxed now, and I am going to tell you who is going to help you, and I am going to call on my colleague and fellow Commissioner, Dr Mgojo, and I hand over to him now.

KHOZA MGOJO: Thank you very much, Mayi, that you managed to come before this Commission, especially because we so wish to be at the place that you have been to.  We are very happy to see you here.  What I want to know, can we hear from you, give us a brief introduction who are you, how are you related to this person?

WITNESS:   How I am connected, Mampani is my cousin.  I grew up with him.  He is a person who was an inyanga, living on herbal things.  He went to Richmond from his home.  After that ... (intervention)

KHOZA MGOJO: I am still going to ask how big was your family.  I just wanted to know the relation.

WITNESS:   Yes, he was my cousin.

KHOZA MGOJO: Now, tell us about his family.  How big was his family?

WITNESS:   It was too big because he had two wives.  His first-born is Musweni and Mfikilelo, and his daughter called Jengisile.  I don't know the others because they are so many.

KHOZA MGOJO: Because he had so big family, where is his family?