Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-16

CHAIRPERSON: Today we are proceeding with the application of Mr John Radebe in respect of the killing Ms Ndumo and the attempted murder of Ms Elsie Mokoena.
	Ms Moloisane, are you ready to proceed?

MS MOLOISANE: ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR LAX: Sorry, could you just switch your microphone on, thank you.

MS MOLOISANE: Madam Chair and Committee Members, we are in a position to proceed with this application, and we haven't prepared any supplementary affidavit.  At this stage I wish to call the applicant, Njanjana John Radebe.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he going to testify in Sesotho?

MS MOLOISANE: He has indicated to me that he is willing to testify in Sesotho.  He's not that well-conversant in English and he therefore prefers to present his evidence in Sesotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, will you please rise.  Are you prepared to take an oath?

JOHN RADEBE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may be seated.  You may proceed, Ms Moloisane.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you, Madam Chair and Committee Members.
	Mr Radebe, you are in prison right now, serving a period of 13 years for having committed two counts of murder - let me rephrase this, Madam Chair.
	You are in prison right now, serving a term of imprisonment of 13 years, is that correct?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: And you were convicted on two counts of murder and possession of arms and ammunition, is that correct?

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: Let me put it this way, you were first convicted for the murder of one, Maletsatsi Marumo, is that not so?

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: And later on you were convicted for the murder of Hapile Ndumo and for the assault on Elsie Mokoena, is that correct?

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: Briefly tell this Committee the circumstances surrounding the murder of Maletsatsi Marumo in 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought by agreement, we had all agreed that we will get the testimony from Mr Radebe in respect of the killing of Ms Ndumo and the assault of Ms Mokoena first because the Evidence Leader has to lead evidence of Ms Mokoena in respect of that particular incident and thereafter you'll be given an opportunity to call Mr Radebe to give evidence in respect of the killing of Maletsatsi.

MS MOLOISANE: As it please you, Madam Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: So we would expect him to give evidence only in respect of the Ndumo and Mokoena incident, for now, and once that incident has been testified to by him we'll then afford the Evidence Leader an opportunity of proceeding to lead evidence of Ms Mokoena.

MS MOLOISANE: As it pleases you Madam Chair.
	Now you and your co-accused were accused of the murder of Hapile Ndumo, the assault, you were convicted of the murder of Hapile Ndumo, the assault on Elsie Mokoena and the illegal possession of arms and ammunition, together with your co-accused in that case, Samuel Neti, Abraham Mkhwanazi and Borman Letsulo(?), is that correct?

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: And you are currently in prison, serving a term of 13 years, is that correct?

JOHN RADEBE: That is correct.

MS MOLOISANE: Now tell this Committee about the circumstances that led to the events of the 15th of August 1993 in Sebokeng, that is that led to the killing of Hapile Ndumo and to the assault on Elsie Mokoena and to the possession of those arms and ammunitions illegally.  Proceed.

JOHN RADEBE: It was in 1993 on the 15th of August, it was on Sunday.  I was at Small Farm, my two comrades arrived, that is Borman Letsulo and Abraham Mkhwanazi.  They were on their way to Zone 7.  I requested them that we should start at Ndluli's place, then I'll accompany them to Zone 7 so that they will be able to see one person there at the tavern.  We agreed that we should start at Ndluli's place ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Could you just slow down a little bit please. We are very worried that what you say will not be interpreted if you're going too fast.  It also makes it very difficult for us to take the notes down.  Do you understand?

JOHN RADEBE: ...(no English interpretation)

MR LAX: So if you could please, without interfering in the way you testify, just try and be a little bit slower, it would really help all of us, thanks.
	Just to say this, you said it was a Sunday, you were at Small Farm, your comrades, Letsulo and Mkhwanazi stopped, they were on their way to Zone 7, you requested them to pass - I didn't catch the name, was it Ndluli's tavern, Ndluli's place?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: Carry on from there please.

JOHN RADEBE: We arrived at that tavern, the three of us, we entered the tavern.  I looked for the person whom I was looking for and then he was not present there.  When we went outside I informed my comrades that I saw Hapile and Elsie inside the tavern.
	As I knew that those people were wanted within Sebokeng community that is why I informed my comrades that we should take these people to the office in Zone 12 ...(intervention)

MS MOLOISANE: You said they were wanted, would you please explain to this Committee why were they wanted, why do you say they were wanted?

JOHN RADEBE: It was in regard to the murders which prevailed in Sebokeng, about the shootings of innocent people.  We called them.  They went outside the tavern and we stood outside.

CHAIRPERSON: Did what? - you caught them?

JOHN RADEBE: I called them at the gate in the tavern.  It was myself, Letsulo, Abraham Mkhwanazi, Hapile Ndumo and Elsie Mokoena.   I told them that you are wanted within Sebokeng community.  Hapile replied and said: "We know that we are wanted, but about what?"  I told them that at this time we cannot talk much about those issues.  I confronted Elsie that we are going to Zone 12 now.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Radebe, try and give your evidence at a pace that will enable the translator to translate everything that you are saying and enable the Committee as well as the Evidence Leader to take down that which is being translated from Sesotho into English by the translators.  So try and be a little slower.

MR LAX: Can you just go back please.  You said you were at the gate outside the tavern having called them, there was Elsie and yourself and your comrades and then a discussion takes place at that point, just continue from there.  If you wouldn't mind just repeating the details of the discussion to us please.

JOHN RADEBE: I was the one who was talking and then I told that: "You know that you are wanted in Sebokeng", and then I told them: "I request you to go to Zone 12 in the office".  That is when Elsie Mokoena said she is not going there.  I wanted to verify as to whether she is not prepared to go there, then she said she's not prepared, then I asked her for a second time that is she not prepared to go, then I took the pistol, that is a 7.65.  I shot her twice.

MS MOLOISANE: Why were you having a pistol in your possession?

JOHN RADEBE: It was for my protection and to protect the Sebokeng community.  I used to have it all the time with me because we were patrolling ...(intervention)

MR LAX: ...(indistinct) 7,65.

MS MOLOISANE: In what capacity?

JOHN RADEBE: There were IFP groups who were staying at Kwamadala Hostel.  Always they would enter in Sebokeng and shoot people, people who were defenceless, to a point where we as comrades met and discussed about that problem.  That is where we formed the Self Defence Unit.  That is why all the time we would be armed to protect people, our people, from the people who were shooting the community.  Because at times a car would just enter the township and they would start shooting, then I'd be unarmed, so at all times I would have that pistol so as to protect myself and the community.

MS MOLOISANE: You said you were a member of the Self Defence Unit, was it aligned to any political organisation?

JOHN RADEBE: Yes, it was aligned to the ANC.