Human Rights Violation Hearings — Bisho — 1996-11-18

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: I have listened to the previous comments on the gap in the fence.  I have not even visited the terrain before that, because I said that there will be no transgression of the contract, and I was not aware, and that is the truth before God, I was not aware of any holes in the fence.  I didn't know it could play any part, should it play EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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any part somewhere.  I was not even physically on the terrain before that because we thought that if something arose that the police will be able to handle it.
DR RAMASHALA
"When the crowd in that area turned to flee, on the CDF version the continued and prolonged firing was quite unjustified and unlawful".

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Mr Chairman if, and I am not saying that the Doctor was not there or is aware of what happened, if you were there you experienced the panic, the total chaos, everybody shouted to stop firing, I shouted till I couldn't shout anymore, but there was total panic.  I think everybody just panicked.  Everybody that was confronted with the crowd just panicked.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: And that justified the following statement?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: I cannot say, sorry Mr Chairman, that it is justified.

MAPULE RAMASHALA: Okay.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you.  Can I just round up before I go to my colleagues on the left the point that Dr Ramashala has touched upon.  I know and I've heard you saying that you had to depend on what you were told over the radio by your colleague Mr Nkosana, but on all of the evidence, on all of the indications there is no evidence at all that any shots were fired from the crowd.  Now I am not referring to that day, obviously you had to respond under those circumstances, but today, was there any other evidence, apart from what Mr Nkosana told you that compelled you to the conclusion that there was actually shooting from a part of the crowd, or do you accept now because it appears to be the case that there was no shooting from the crowd?
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DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: It appears to be the case that there was no shooting from the crowd, as straightforward as that.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you General.  Hlengiwe Mkhize.

MS MKHIZE: I will just be brief and you will be free to give additional information if you have any.  If you feel you have none feel free not to answer that.  In terms of the Act, the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act of 1995, Act no. 1934 of 1995 which guides our operations one of the things that I emphasise is that there will be a need for understanding but not for vengeance, a need for reparation but not for retaliation and a need for wound but not for victimisation, one witness shortly before you came in here, she said she is still traumatised by the bodies which she saw on that day.

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Yes.

MS MKHIZE: And she is here, she is listening to you, if I might just ask you to respond having in mind real lives that were lost, what would you say what went wrong on that day?  I mean I can understand both from the previous General and yourself that all the people were sincere, but something went seriously wrong.  And I should think for the witnesses the question of the truth is the form of reparation and we see it as a gate towards their healing.

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Thank you.  Mr Chairman my personal feeling is it was a political blunder.   That is how I feel about the whole thing.  And I think it's just tragic that lives had to be lost, of innocent people because of political stubbornness.

MS MKHIZE: If maybe I may ask you a related question.  Here we see that there is a statement to the effect that the Green Card which gives soldiers guidelines for conditions
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under which they can fire was not properly understood by the troops and was not adhered to, can you maybe explain why ordinary citizens were not protected?  I can understand the political processes but I am just thinking from law and order that I take it if there were members of the South African defence force, the security police, they were all there to protect the citizens, so when I say what went wrong I am raising that question from that point of view, the promotion of public security.

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Yes.

MS MKHIZE: And safety.

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: It's a very difficult answer, I think we are all looking for that, even me is every day searching of, and I think in retrospect you know for everybody to say that went wrong, that went wrong is easy, but to have been there, to have experienced what was happening for the previous weeks on that day and afterwards, I think it was a combination of many things that culminated that day into what happened there.  That's all I can answer.  I don't know what to say else.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you General.  Reverend Xundu.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Mr Chairman.  You have said quite unequivocally how sorry you are for that event, you see the understanding that the curse of the time was gleeing at Black on Black foundation, now I would like to ask you what suggestions do you have in mind for reconciliation and the restoration and healing of the nation?  You having been placed in that position where you actually were responsible for a force which killed, how do you begin, what in your mind would you like to begin to restore the healing and reconciliation between Black families who were police in the EAST LONDON HEARING TRC/EASTERN CAPE
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force and Black families whose sons and daughters died?  And what would you suggest the Commission should embark upon that process?

DIRK ADRIAAN VAN DER BANK: Thank you.  Mr Chairman I think it's much easier for me to give that answer than it is for the people who have lost loved ones.  I will try.  I think we all must try and contribute and that is why I am here today.  I would have come even if I did not get an invitation because for four years I have been living with this.  I think that by contributing and telling the truth and feeling really sorry on what happened is already the first step in healing the bleeding wounds of those people who have suffered, and that we must have a mutual understanding.  I can just say, and I don't want to clamp down on the seriousness of this that people asked me, White people asked me, how are you staying in Ciskei, are you safe there, and I said yes I think I am more safe there than I was in King Williamstown when I stayed there.  Yes we have made good friends and I think we must take the road forward.

REV XUNDU: There is an area of pain in which there seems to be an uneven handed way of dealing with perpetrators and survivors/victims, and I think that, and people say that people who were serving on the system were awarded by golden handshakes thus ...(tape ends), and do you think that there should be the kind of Zachias/Jesus confrontation where he says I will pay back what I have stolen, even if it's token?  I will try and contribute to a fund which looks after children who have been made orphans because we need a movement from those who were perpetrators, especially on the White side, to begin to make a movement which takes a costly road, a Damascus kind of road towards
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reaching out to saying let us be one, let us feel the differences.  Have you ever thought of that or you have thought about it could you make a suggestion?  You don't have to now, you can sleep over it and probably write to us and say here are some of the suggestions you want to make which we can follow up and probably ask you to address White communities about this possibility?