Amnesty Hearings — Phokeng — 1996-05-20

LAWRENCE KGOSANE: I don't want to dwell much into this issue.  But what I can say is we wanted them to help us with a venue so that we can conduct our meetings there.  We did so because this building was supposed to be used by the tribe.  Not everywhere in Phokeng were we allowed to conduct our meetings.

MR CURRIN: And if necessary, we will lead evidence to that effect that the African National Congress was opposed to the governance of Bophuthatswana by the then President and that it was the policy of the African National Congress to overthrow that government.  What was the view of the action committee in relation to that policy of the African National Congress?

LAWRENCE KGOSANE: As the action group we really sympathised with the African National Congress in their mission to remove the oppressive government.  Because the African National Congress during that time didn't want anybody to be mishandled.

MR CURRIN: Were any of you as members of the action committee members of the African National Congress, after it was unbanned at the beginning of 1990?
PHOKENG HEARING	AMNESTY/GAUTENG
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LAWRENCE KGOSANE: After the ANC was unbanned, you need first to remember that in Bophuthatswana it was still banned and some of us, we went underground to join the African National Congress.  Because their objectives were our objectives.

MR CURRIN: I have no further questions of this witness.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CURRIN

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe, have you any questions?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: There are no questions, Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

HASSAN MALL: Thank you very much, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
(Applause).

HASSAN MALL: Mr Currin, I trust you have other witnesses to call.  This would be a convenient time to take the adjournment and we will resume at two o'clock when you will call your other witnesses.  The Committee will now adjourn until two o'clock.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
87	MR K C MOKGATLE
ON RESUMPTION ON 21 MAY 1997

HASSAN MALL: Are you ready to proceed, Mr Currin?

MR CURRIN: We are ready to proceed Sir, thank you.

KINANCHIMA CHRISTOFFEL MOKGATLE: (Still under oath).

MR CURRIN: (cont):  We have heard evidence from the first applicant in relation to the murder and we have heard evidence from you,  and it is apparent from that evidence that there was no earlier intention or premeditation to kill the deceased.  Could you tell us what was in your mind when the situation got out of hand and people began to assault the deceased.  Why did you at that stage participate in the killing?

MR K C MOKGATLE: I had taken part - let me start first by saying my wish was to help Mr Glad Mokgatle because I saw people were assaulting him, but I was afraid, because I saw people who were with me, were very angry.  Secondly, my taking part in that action was because I realised that he was already injured, and I was afraid that I will get into trouble, I will be arrested.  I was trying to get away any links of myself being arrested.  Thank you.

MR CURRIN: Could you also tell us what you hoped to achieve by getting the keys to this building, what was your objective in trying to get those keys?

MR K C MOKGATLE: My intention to get those keys, I wanted to send them, those keys to the Baphokeng tribe, so that our government of this building could again be run as we wanted, or as we wished as the Baphokeng tribe.

JUDGE WILSON: At this stage, I am now commenting on my ow impressions.  When you talked about this building, this building consists not only of a large public hall, but what appears to be the governmental offices.  Is that the
PHOKENG HEARING	AMNESTY/GAUTENG
88	MR K C MOKGATLE
position?

MR K C MOKGATLE: This hall is meant for the Baphokeng tribe.
I would like to say this is not only the building for the hall, there are also many offices here, which belong to the Baphokeng tribe.  Therefore, we as the Baphokeng tribe, after building this hall, we are going to enforce the interests of the Baphokeng tribe in this hall.

JUDGE WILSON: And did the persons who had the keys have the control over the building?

MR K C MOKGATLE: The person who had the keys in his possession, we don't really know the person in fact.  We only saw every morning that this hall was opened.  Therefore, we were looking for the keys so that we can use this hall, so that no one could enter this hall again without the permission  of us, the Baphokeng, or only the Baphokeng tribe were allowed to enter this hall.

MR CURRIN: I would just like to consult with my colleague for a moment before I ask the next question.

HASSAN MALL: Yes, you may do so.

MR CURRIN: We have no more questions of this witness, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CURRIN

HASSAN MALL: Mr Mpshe, have you any questions of this witness?

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: In your testimony, Mr Mokgatle, you testified to the effect that the - perhaps one of the main reasons was to collect the keys from the deceased.  Am I correct?

MR K C MOKGATLE: That's correct.
	Your concern then only centred around the keys.  
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What we talked about on that day, was only the keys, because we knew that those keys or that our lives were on the 
users of those keys by that time.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Part of your concern in that meeting in the room in the Catholic Church, is that you were worried and concerned about the money that belonged to the tribe and that was being misused or stolen. Was that not discussed at the meeting?

MR K C MOKGATLE: What you are telling me now, sir, I would like to say it was only rumours.  There were many things that were happening in these offices.  Which forced us to get those keys and which meant that if we had those keys, we will do away with the things that did not satisfy us in this hall or decisions that were taken here.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: You told the Committee that you personally hit the deceased with a panga, but you did not tell the Committee as to how you did that or on what part of the body did you do that.  Are you ready, you can tell us that?

MR K C MOKGATLE: I truly believe that Sir, we don't have the same intentions because I explained earlier that before I hacced this man with that sabre, I was afraid to go to jail.  Because I was never in jail. I didn't want anyone to know that I performed those bad deeds.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Perhaps it was not correctly put to you.  I am saying to you you told the Committee yesterday that you hacked the deceased with a panga, but that ran short of you telling us how you did that and on what part of his body did you do that?

MR K C MOKGATLE: I hacked him on his neck with that panga.  I did it once, I did it once.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is the panga the only instrument that was used?
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90	MR K C MOKGATLE

MR K C MOKGATLE: That's what I used to hack him, that is the only instrument that I used.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Was there no other instruments or instrument other than the panga, which was in your possession or in you colleague's possession?

MR K C MOKGATLE: The other instrument I saw there was the only instrument I saw there, is a panga and the other one was a knobkierie and that knobkierie I saw it only when we were in court.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: Is it all you saw in the Kombi, in your possession by means of instruments?

MR K C MOKGATLE: Those are the only ones I saw, it was a knobkierie and the panga only.

MOKOTEDI MPSHE: We have, Mr Mokgatle, in our possession, a document that was used by your legal representative, which was used as an opening document.  I want to believe this document was compiled with your assistance.  Am I right?

MR K C MOKGATLE: That's true, sir.