Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-03

MR SAMUEL: If Mr Radebe says that he was sleeping in the kombi at the base, will he be mistaken about that sir?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, he could have been, while they were waiting, he could have been sitting sleeping in the vehicle, these people have been as I understood it, working long hours.

CHAIRPERSON: But if it were to be said, we don't know, but if it were to be said that he slept there, correct me if I am wrong, for the whole night?

MR SAMUEL: For the whole night sir.

CHAIRPERSON: At the base in the kombi?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No, that Mr Chairman, I would perceive to be incorrect because Mr Coetzer had an instruction that they should go back to C.R. Swart.

MR LAX: You see, earlier you and again I made a note of this, you said yes, you remember talking to Coetzer and after speaking to him, you heard his vehicle leave.  You only speak about one vehicle at that point in time, leaving, not about vehicles in the plural?  We now hear that Radebe in fact had his own vehicle?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, that is so.  The evidence was given, he had a kombi and Mr Coetzer had if I can recall correct, a blue truck.

MR LAX: Yes, and Mbane was also driving a Corolla we have been told?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, that is correct, but it was not our vehicle.

MR LAX: Yes, but the point is these people had access to all these vehicles, at least two that the askari or Radebe had and clearly Coetzer must have had his own vehicle as well?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct, Coetzer had his own vehicle.

MR LAX: So it is not like a convoy of vehicles left, you only heard one vehicle leave at that point?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I have said, I am not sure when they left and how did they leave and so on, but the instruction was that they would leave and they wouldn't have stayed.

MR LAX: Yes.  That was your instruction to Coetzer, whether he relayed it onwards, you don't know?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Well, I assume that he did Mr Chairman, I don't think he would have disobeyed me  Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Baker, if Mr Mbane says he did not go with Mr Coetzer, but spent the night there, what would you say to that?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I doubt whether they would have left him behind.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you didn't see Mbane, but he may have been there?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I didn't see him there the morning Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't look for him?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: He wasn't there in the morning, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  So you are saying that as far as you are concerned, he must have gone with Mr Coetzer?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, Mr Coetzer and his team weren't there the next morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.  Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: Did you look for Mr Mbane the next morning?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as far as I can remember, we met them at C.R. Swart the next day.

MR SAMUEL: My question to you sir, did you look for Mr Mbane the next morning?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I did not look for him, because he was not there Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: Sir, did you look for him?  Is your answer you did not look for him or that you looked for him and he wasn't there?

UNKNOWN: Mr Chairman, surely he has answered the question by now.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I think if Mr Samuel wants to, he didn't answer it directly, the question was did you look for Mbane the next morning at the base?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I did not look for him at the base, because he was not there Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: And you don't know what time, if Mr Mbane spent the night at tle base, you would not know what time he had left, am I right?  There were vehicles available to him, am I right?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, the driver of the kombi was Mr Radebe, he was in charge of the kombi, he wouldn't have left the kombi for Mr Mbane to drive around in.  There are specific instructions in that regard that the group leaders would drive the vehicles.

MR SAMUEL: Was Mr Radebe there the next morning?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: Do you know what time Mr Radebe left the base?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, I do not know what time the people left the base.

MR SAMUEL: Sir, you have given evidence that you heard shots being, someone being hit.

CHAIRPERSON: Not shots, blows.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairman, thank you, I just didn't get the word, you heard blows whilst you were outside the room, you heard blows, is that correct?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: These blows must have been quite severe for you to hear it outside the room?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, they were muted blows, I think most of us were at school at the same time, I remember standing outside the Headmaster's office and listening to colleagues getting a hiding before I got a hiding, it is about hearing a chap getting caned.

CHAIRPERSON: When you heard them, the door would have been closed?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: The door was closed Mr Chairman, but I did hear that she was receiving blows and I also heard exclamations as a result of the blows.

MR SAMUEL: Basically you heard screams sir, is that correct?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Shouts, exclamations as you would if you received a blow.

MR LAX: I mean from that you can assume two things, one thing that they were painful otherwise the person wouldn't be calling out?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: And number two that they were of such a nature that they were hard enough for you to hear them outside?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Botha, was it Mr Botha or Mr Taylor that informed you that Ms Khubeka had died?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: My recollection is that it was Mr Botha.

MR SAMUEL: And then did you all leave the scene thereafter, the room?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I wasn't in the room when Mr Botha, which room are you referring to, Mr Chair?

MR SAMUEL: Where Ms Khubeka was being held?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: I wasn't informed in that room, Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: Were you informed at the place where you slept for the night, that building with the tent over it?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: If my recollection is correct, when we stopped the vehicle, I think Mr Botha came to Mr du Preez and said that Ms Khubeka had died, this is where I heard it.

MR SAMUEL: And I assume thereafter everyone had left the base, am I right, all the white members had left the base?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: What is your reply to that?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: No Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: Except yourself you mean, or were there still other white members at the base?

CHAIRPERSON: I think he said earlier that Mr Coetzer left only after he came back with the food.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you.  Sir, we know for a fact that the black members would not sleep with the white members, am I right?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, that is why they went back to C.R. Swart Square.

MR SAMUEL: Please just answer the question, sir.  Is that a fact that the white members would sleep separately from the black members?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Generally they slept separately in the same vicinity.

MR SAMUEL: If the white members had to sleep in the building under the tent which we had seen, or was pointed out to us in the in loco inspection, where would the black members sleep sir?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: Mr Chairman, as I said, at my time at the base, the black members did not sleep at that base, I cannot say where they would have slept.

MR SAMUEL: Are there any other facilities that you had seen, have you been on that in loco inspection sir?

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: That is correct Mr Chairman.

MR SAMUEL: The areas being pointed out to you at the in loco inspection, is there any other place convenient place, besides the verandah or one of those rooms, that any person could sleep except of course in a car, I am talking about a building?