Amnesty Hearings — Cape Town — 2000-10-02

GEORGE BIZOS: And did that play any role in your keeping silent?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: My question to Brigadier Engelbrecht was, how soon will you be able to get me out of here and he remarked that I should keep quiet but they would do what they could, that it wouldn't take longer than six months, if I recall correctly.  Six months in there would be like 16 years, and I told him that there was no way that I could stay there for that time.  So I indicated that I would keep quiet until I couldn't do so anymore, and the things that I had spoken about were already known.  By nature of the situation I had to give detail in order to achieve my release.

GEORGE BIZOS: When did you become aware that Mr van Zyl had already spoken about the Early Learning Centre bomb whilst you were in detention?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I was detained before Mr van Zyl, so I didn't have any contact with him.  After my discharge I had contact with him, or after my release so-to-speak.

GEORGE BIZOS: How did you know that they knew what had happened that prompted you to speak?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I accepted that there must have been a leak somewhere.  It is a question for Brigadier Flores Mostert perhaps because he gave me certain facts which were alarming.

GEORGE BIZOS: What facts did he disclose to you?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Among others the fact that the bomb had exploded.  I couldn't deny it, a bomb had exploded and it was alarming to me the fact that he knew about the bomb or a bomb which had gone off.

GEORGE BIZOS: Did he tell you what Van Zyl had said about it?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: No he didn't.  As I have said I was in detention, I don't know where Mr van Zyl was or who he was speaking to.

GEORGE BIZOS: Now I am concerned about your statement that you believed that statements made under detention would not be admissible, were you forced to make that statement?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Let me begin at the beginning.  Firstly yes, it is a general fact that Section 20 statements are not permissible but that is the impression that I have, and I worked with Section 29 imprisonments so perhaps I have been mistaken for all these years.  By nature of the situation there was pressure on me despite the fact that I didn't get proper meals; that I was deprived of all my freedom; that I could not obtain legal counsel; that I didn't know what was going on outside; that I felt that I was going to be sacrificed; the fact that I begged and pleaded for them to look after Mr Barnard, which was not done.  So if I were to make my own inference I asked them to help Mr Barnard but instead of them helping him further possible rumours were spread which established my detention as well.  So by nature of the situation it was a form of coercion, it was a grave form of coercion.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes.  But now how would it have helped you if you gave what you have described before the Committee false details in relation to the bomb?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Firstly I tried to cooperate, I tried to follow the golden mean in terms of my co-operation with the police to try and achieve my release but also to remain part of the South African Defence Force system, so I tried to say as little as possible with that.  I tried to follow the golden mean.
	Perhaps I could tell you a tale which would give you clarity regarding the subject.  At a certain stage I became so claustrophobic that I felt as if I would do anything to speak in order just to get a visit, that is why I said on a certain day that I would like to clear my conscience, that I was prepared to tell everything that I knew, but that I wouldn't speak to any of them but to the General.  They brought the General in by helicopter.  He arrived there and he said, "Son can we talk to you, what's your position?".  And I said yes General I would like to discuss a few things with you.  They took me out of the cells and treated me like a decent well-educated person.  They allowed me to have a cup of tea, and then they said, well are you read to speak?  I said yes I would like to talk about the food.  I would like to talk about my detention; my freedom; and a few other aspects.  And they said no we'll change everything for you but let's just talk about the involvement of others, and I said no General I have got nothing to say about that.  Naturally he expressed his disapproval and departed, but that hour of escape from those cells bought me another day.  
	So you must understand when I speak to you of unforced coercion or coercion without any physical pressure which is exerted on the individual.

GEORGE BIZOS: I accept everything that you say in relation to detention without trial, and you are not the first person from whom I have heard it.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I accept that.

GEORGE BIZOS: But what I am asking you is this, how would you have helped your situation in describing what happened at the explosion of this bomb at the Early Learning Centre by giving inaccurate detail?  And please try and confine your answer to the question.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I will try to do so Mr Bizos.  You have asked me for a third time, I will give you this answer and see if you find that satisfactory.  By nature of the situation they had certain facts.  They didn't know what the precise facts were.  I gave them a concoction of the truth in order to get myself out of detention.  Better than that I cannot do.

GEORGE BIZOS: No but I will assist you to try.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Please.

GEORGE BIZOS: If you admitted that you participated in the explosion of the bomb how would it help you to give false details in relation to the manner in which it happened?  Try and answer that question please.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: I will try once again to answer to the best of my ability.  I was involved with the State organisation, an organisation which at certain points assured us in no uncertain terms of indemnity, the fact that we would not be prosecuted commensurately I dealt with this decision in the back of my mind and I said things which were not sober during my detention.  And for someone who has not been in section 29 detention I cannot explain my behavioural patterns.  I can also not sketch my state of mind unless you yourself have experienced it, and I doubt it.

GEORGE BIZOS: You are partly correct, but I have heard enough people describe their experience.  Try and answer the question ...(intervention)

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Then I will accept your sympathy towards my detention as well.

GEORGE BIZOS: Yes, but try and answer my questions.  Let's try in another way.

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Please.

GEORGE BIZOS: If you were involved in Van Zyl and you were involved in the CCB how would it help you, how would it help the CCB, how would it help Van Zyl or any one of you by giving incorrect information in relation to the detail as to how the bomb was exploded?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Once again I will give you an answer.  I wanted to force the organisation to stay true to their word regarding what we understood about indemnity during our training.  I wanted to force them and show them, this is what I know, this is what I can say.  So you have to achieve my release now.  More than that I cannot do.

GEORGE BIZOS: I will try once again.  Why would the truth in relation to the detail once you made the great divide by implicating yourself, the CCB and Van Zyl, why wouldn't the truth have been better rather than false details?

CARL CASTELING BOTHA: Because I was uncertain of the reaction of the organisation.  Let me put a hypothetical question to you.  Let's say I were to expose all the correct facts.  They could sacrifice me.  Therefore I dealt according to my state of mind at that point whether it would assist me or not.  I did the best that I thought during my detention and I will stand by that.