Amnesty Hearings — Boksburg — UNKNOWN

MR SHONGWE: On Saturday, ten o'clock in the morning, they arrived in that bakkie, the bakkie that they did not drive into the ditch, Vips was among them.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: Mavuso was present and Thabo.   I have forgotten the others.   They arrived at us, we were four in number, they went to Comrade Sugar ...(intervention).

UNKNOWN: Was Sugar with you?

MR SHONGWE: Yes.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: They said they want a gun confiscated from a certain person on Thursday, they demanded that gun.   Comrade Sugar had this gun on his person.

UNKNOWN: Did he give it?

MR SHONGWE: He did not give them the gun.

UNKNOWN: What did they do when he did not give them?

MR SHONGWE: They demanded the gun, and they pointed at me and Lefu (?) said, "You guys are very young, we don't know why do you associate with these people".   Mr Sugar asked them what they had in mind.   Vips replied by saying, "Wait, wait and see".

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: They then jumped into their car and they shot in the air.   It was a warning shot.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: And they drove off.   On Monday, the 6th, late, at about five o'clock, I was coming from work, a group of youths arrived at the rank, that was at the corner, they had containers with them and pipes.   They were taking petrol from every taxi that was passing by, they said, "Just a little will do".   I went to them, I also had my container, I also was joining in tapping the petrol.   They said, "Man, we don't need your assistance here".

UNKNOWN: Why did you join them?

MR SHONGWE: We were together, I was, I did not know that
there was a conflict between us.

UNKNOWN: Yes?

MR SHONGWE: Well, I went back, I did not refuse.   I can't remember whether it was nine o'clock, we heard a whistle
sound from F block, we then ran towards F direction, because we were members of the SDU.   When we arrived there, Bulelwa was already shot.   We guarded the corpse until about 12 o'clock at night, and we were told that those who were employed must go and sleep, have some rest.   I left with those who went to sleep.

UNKNOWN: And then the following day, is it the day that you have spent on all the capturing?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, that was in the morning.   No, in the morning, I came back.

UNKNOWN: Okay, now as a result of these killings, is there anything that you benefited personally from such action?

MR SHONGWE: I did not benefit anything for myself, but, well maybe the community benefited, because many things, criminal activities, stopped.

UNKNOWN: I've no further questions, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MADASA

MR MAPOMA: You have outlined the activities where these young persons were implicated.   Now when you captured them, how did you determine that this one participated and this one did not participate?

CHAIRPERSON: Are you confining yourself to the group that was captured by him?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, the group that was captured, chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't he say they had been given names?   Were you not given names of persons who had taken part in the killing of Blanko and Bulelwa?

MR SHONGWE: No.   I learnt later that a person who killed Bulelwa is Vips.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, but did you go out to capture people?

MR SHONGWE: No.

MR MAPOMA: What about Mavuso?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, the commander said, he instructed us to go and fetch Mavuso.

MR MAPOMA: You said Mchebe gave you an AK47 and made an order that all of you are going to operate.   Did you all operate?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, the one who did not operate is Vusi, others had axes.

MR MAPOMA: Did you have an axe?

MR SHONGWE: No.

MR MAPOMA: Now, when (Indistinct) Buthelezi, the older one, was brought in the shack, were you present then?

MR SHONGWE: I was not there yet.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Sibanyoni, is there anything arising, Mr ...(intervention).

UNKNOWN: No, Mr Chair.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MADASA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.   Mr Shongwe, after you collected Mavuso from his mother and you were walking along with him with the other guy interrogating them, did they volunteer the information, or were you to threaten them first or torture the information out of them?

MR SHONGWE: We did not torture Mavuso.   When we said Blanko is killed, after that he said, "Where are you taking me to?"  He kept quiet for a long time.   After asking that question, he tried to run away, that's one issue I forgot, he tried to run away, then we caught him.

MR SIBANYONI: But you are saying they implicated themselves  voluntarily, freely?

MR SHONGWE: I mean in the shacks, but on the road we did not torture him.

MR SIBANYONI: Now, despite the fact that these youths were doing all these things you mentioned, hijacking cars, looting tuckshops, killing people and threatening you that they will hit you slowly but surely, no drastic steps were taken against them.    Why?

MR SHONGWE: We did not take any drastic steps because this thing was spoken in the meeting, that we should bring so that we'll be able to negotiate until the hit.

MR SIBANYONI: Now, according to you, had they not killed Bulelwa and Blanko, would they have been killed?

MR SHONGWE: No, sir.

MR SIBANYONI: In other words, what sparked or what caused, or the reason for their killing was specifically the killing of Bulelwa and Blanko?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, that is true.

MR SIBANYONI: Do you agree with the statement that the relatives, in other words the relatives of the victims, their parents and other relatives, are also part of the community of Moleleki?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, they are part of Moleleki community, some of them are not part of the Moleleki community.

MR SIBANYONI: Now if I'm saying to you, those parents and relatives did not benefit anything from the killing of these youth, what would be your reaction to that?

MR SHONGWE: I don't dispute that.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions, Mr Chair-person.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: Would you tell us, when this incident took place when you found them with the containers at the taxis collecting a litre petrol from each taxi?

MR SHONGWE: It was around five to six.

MR MALAN: How long was this before the incident where they were killed?

MR SHONGWE: It's a day before they were killed.

MR MALAN: It was on the day of Bulelwa's death?

MR SHONGWE: Yes.

MR MALAN: And you participated with them, you had your container, if I heard you correctly, and you also wanted to collect petrol?

MR SHONGWE: Yes sir.

MR MALAN: Would that not be a criminal activity?

MR SHONGWE: It would be a criminal activity, but there was nothing I could do, because if you sit on the fence, you'd be an informer.

MR MALAN: Did I not hear you correctly saying that they did not want you to help and that you then left?

MR SHONGWE: Yes.

MR MALAN: And did I hear you correctly saying that you were not aware of any differences or difficulties with them at that stage?

MR SHONGWE: The way I observed, I did not see, it started, that incident started to give me a new impression, when they said they don't want me there, then it shows that I was not wanted, so I should put myself aside from them.

MR MALAN: But you were not aware of any conflict before then?

MR SHONGWE: I was not in conflict with them.

MR MALAN: When did you become an operator?

MR SHONGWE: I began to be an operator in 1992 in June, if I remember well.

MR MALAN: Where was it, was it in Moleleki, in Moleleki section?

MR SHONGWE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Were you then part of the Youth League?

MR SHONGWE: That is correct.

MR MALAN: At that stage, Vips and the others who were killed were also part of the Youth League?

MR SHONGWE: Yes, they were part of the ANC Youth League at the time when I was with them.

MR MALAN: When did they separate themselves from the SDU?