Amnesty Hearings — Johannesburg — 1999-02-09

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: I started to be a member of the SDU in 1990.  As I was a Media Officer of the Youth League in Tokoza, there was a meeting because the war had started between hostel dwellers and the residents of Phola Park.  At the time the war started, it wasn't clear that it was a fight between the ANC and the IFP.
	Everybody observed that as a fight between Zulu's and Xhosa's.  On that meeting of the ANC Youth League, they said that amongst the members of the ANC Youth League and I was also the Chairperson of the Slovo Section, that we must form Self Defence Units.
	The issue was referred to members of Umkhonto weSizwe.  The members of MK adopted me in that particular structure, which would form the Self Defence Units in all the sections.
	After the formation of those structures, we held elections for various positions within the Units, because at that time, members of the leadership of the ANC or members of the Executive in Slovo Section, people like Thabi Penqe, Vusi Sibeko, were attacked in their houses, and then I was left alone.
	People like Sam Ntuli, Dan Pumselo Mbatha and Tshabalala have already died at that time.  That is where we formulated the SDU structures.  Those people who were near the hostels, came to our sections and at times, they were threatened to join the IFP.
	There were activities which I did with the SDUs until I was arrested in 1992, around September or October, I don't remember well.  After I was detained, I stayed in detention for some months.  In 1993, I learnt about what was happening in the township, especially in my particular Section.
	Those three months which I stayed in detention, six people or seven people, were killed by Bishop Khumalo's gang, who is a member of the IFP.  I was forced to get out of prison, because I was never granted bail.
	I was able to escape from prison for the first time.

MR SHANE: Mr Selepe, so from what you have said about your political credentials, it can be accepted that not only were you a member of the SDU, but you played a major role in the formation of SDUs?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, that is so, that is correct.

MR SHANE: Right, now that has explained your actual political activities.  When you made application for amnesty on the 10th of May last year, not last year, 1997, where were you?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: In 1997 I was in prison without bail, that is Boksburg prison.

MR SHANE: At that time, you were awaiting trial?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: On that day, explain how it came about that being in prison you managed to sign an application or applications for amnesty.

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: A certain comrade called Duma Nkosi came, he was together with a certain person, who is not known to me.

MR SHANE: That person who is not known to you, have you now found out that that person is Mr George Ndlozi an official from the TRC?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, I knew later that he was working for the TRC.

MR SHANE: And who was Duma Nkosi to you, what was he to you?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Duma Nkosi was the person I was working with in the township and now he is a member of parliament.

MR SHANE: Yes.  And can you explain what happened on that day, can you remember what did you tell him you want to apply for amnesty for?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, I told him on that day that I want to apply for all offences which I will be prosecuted for and other acts, which were not known and I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you tell him which acts or offences you thought you would be prosecuted for?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: If I remember well, ...

CHAIRPERSON: I am not asking you if you can list them, I am just asking did you tell him what those offences were?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, it seems I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Then on a particular day, I assume it is the same day, you signed it?

INTERPRETER: May you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: You signed that document on that day?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: If I am not mistaken, yes, I signed.

MR SHANE: Right.

CHAIRPERSON: You seem to speak English quite well, can you read it?  Can you read English?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, though not efficient.  I am able, but not that efficient.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when you signed the document, did you read it before you signed it?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, if I am not mistaken, I read it before I signed it.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you satisfied that the offences which you refer to as your instruction, was properly set out in the application form before you signed it?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Even though I don't remember the content of that document, I remember that there was a document.  I remember signing, but I don't remember as to whether I did read that document before.

CHAIRPERSON: You have just told me you did?  Make up your mind.

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Because it has happened for a long time, I think it is two or three years back ...

CHAIRPERSON: No look, we are not going to play games about time here now, before you signed that document, you were satisfied that it was correctly filled in, not so?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, I was satisfied.

MR SHANE: Sorry Mr Chairman, at this juncture, I must just place on record that what is now being said, is totally contradictory to the instructions that I took.  It is not according to the instructions that I took in a lengthy consultation with this applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane, you have made your point.  I don't know what you want to do about it.  You can decide what you want to do about it.

MR SHANE: Can I have some time to consider what I am going to do about it Mr Chairman, please?  I see it is passed one o'clock, maybe it is an opportune time to take the lunch adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Selepe, your Attorney has informed me that you have deviated from your instructions to him.  I don't know what he intends to do about it, but it may be possible that you may not have his services for much longer, as a result.
	You are going to have to decide what you want to do about that matter as well.  Do you understand?

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane, you have requested an opportunity to consider your opportunity?

MR SHANE: Correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I trust that that would not include a consultation with your client?

MR SHANE: That is, you have my word, I just want to point one thing out Mr Chairman, I just possibly, maybe I can do so in the presence of Mr Steenkamp, but it is possible Mr Chairman, that he is misunderstanding because I was expecting to lead the applicant on this, but the discrepancy has emanated from questions from yourself Mr Chairman.
	I just want to, and it is on this point, and I hope I could clear it up, it might need a consultation, but like I say Mr Chairman, if it can be done in front of Mr Steenkamp, otherwise I won't consult, but I am thinking to get around ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane, I think you are putting the cart before the horse.  You have informed me that there is a problem with your instructions.  I in my experience, expect certain things to occur.
	If you want time to consider your position, I am going to give you time, but I don't know whether you can rectify the problem.  I don't know if you follow me.

MR SHANE: I follow Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So I am going to adjourn for lunch and you can consider your position.  I have made my feelings on the issue, clear and you are aware of my comments.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman, in the circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw.