Special Hearings — Media Hearings — UNKNOWN

UNKNOWN: Thank you very much for taking us through your submission.  It is very difficult to interact with you today, sitting as one of our witnesses.

MAX DU PREEZ: It is very odd to sit on this side, Chairman.

UNKNOWN: I will ask a few questions.  I hope the documents and affidavits that you have referred to, you will hand over to ...

MAX DU PREEZ: It is already with you, thank you.

UNKNOWN: Okay, thank you.  My first question to you, Max, is I want to know more about the Vrye Weekblad.  Since it was well-known for its exposition of major cases, like the Dirk Coetzees, the death squads, given what we have heard over the past two days, I just want to know, to ask as to how did you get these stories?  Was it through - did you get them from special sources or it was just an outcome of good journalism?

MAX DU PREEZ: That is a very interesting question, because I heard Johan Pretorius say here, of the SABC, earlier, that they also tried to get hold of all these things on death squads, and they had no idea where Vrye Weekblad got their information.  Well, maybe I should just tell Johan that if he wants confirmation, or he wanted information on police death squads, you don't go to the Minister or to the spokesman for the Ministry, because that's what they seem to have done.  The answer, is firstly, a tribute to the last of investigative journalists, a man that I respect very much for what he has done in investigative journalism, and his name is Jacques Pauw. Most of these material came through his pen. He also produced for the SABC a brilliant documentary on Primeval on Eugene de Kock.  But, there is another answer too. Dirk Coetzee had gone to other newspapers before with his story. He had been to Rapport, told his whole story and they chased him away.  They didn't want to touch it.  He went to the Sunday Times, they didn't want to touch it.  And then when he came to us, when he came to Jacques, we said is there any way in which we cannot publish  this, it will probably close us down. We knew that, November 1989, we knew that we would probably mean the end of us.  And we said well, how can you not publish it. I mean, apart from your basic code as a journalist, it was the God-damn best story in years. I mean, what kind of a journalist are you if you are prepared to say go away, I don't want to know. 	So in that sense, good investigative journalism is the answer, but also to be prepared to take risks, to be prepared to take risks, to be prepared to push the parameters a little bit, to not be scared of court cases. I appeared in 47 court cases in my life. I spent virtually more time in court than in the news room, because it is a form of harassment.  I was charged or sued for defamation more than two dozen times and mostly, it is to silence you and that happens today with the media, today, if somebody doesn't want you to go further with an investigation or criticise more, they sue you for defamation and then it is sub judice for a few years.  And I have often said to my colleagues in mainstream papers, you have just got to push harder, this is a risky business. If you don't want to be there, then become a clerk, but while you are a journalist, you have got to, you have got to push a little bit. It is an exciting job to have, if you do it the way we did it.  Otherwise it is pretty boring.  So it was about pushing the limits, it is about taking risks and be prepared to listen to all kinds of stories.

UNKNOWN: Having been part of the audience for the past two days, I mean, already I was, as I was listening to you, I looked at - I should think it is the third page of your submission where - or the fourth page, where you have something about silence from the large newspapers and denials from the State.  I would like to just get your opinion as to, of the role of the mainstream Press under apartheid, especially looking at what should be done, to make sure that they regain respect from society.

MAX DU PREEZ: It is going to be, Mr Chairman, very hard for some newspapers to regain the respect of the society. And the way they go about it now, is not the way to regain the respect of this whole society. This is not a divided society, it is not - we don't see this as a divided society any more, you can't write for a few white people in the Northern suburbs any more, you have to write for the whole nation. You have to be accepted by the whole nation. That's going to be a hard road for some newspapers.  Newspapers, I mean we sat here and we listened to the spies talking to you. I have told you now that Mr Craig Kotze, who sat here, he even lied to the Truth Commission about Vlakplaas, who said he only operated as a journalist.  Yet, he knew everything about Vlakplaas. He led the discrediting campaign of Vlakplaas - of Dirk Coetzee and the story.  So it is hard to overcome that kind of a history.  What, the mistake they should never make again, is to sit in Braamfontein or in Rosebank and not know that there is a Soweto and there is a Koppies and a Leeudoringstad and all these places, to pretend that that's not there.  That's what they have done.  I listened to some of the mainstream papers here, who still have black and white editions.  I mean, every Saturday night when I go home, I am faced with a choice, do I buy the Extra or the ordinary one.  Every time I think am I white or am I black, I mean, what's the difference, and it irritates me. There is no place for that any longer in our society. But it is a hard road because people have been conditioned. I think there has been a healthy debate in the last few weeks from people like Jon Qwelane and Thami Mazwai and William Mogobo and Robert Brandt and others in the Star.  That's extremely healthy.  Strong views.  We heard them today again, from people like Don Mattera and Jon Qwelane, and we should now take that debate. It is not an attack, it is a debate that well, all of us as journalists should take to heart and say these guys are our brothers in the same profession and we know they are good.  We know they're good.  Jon Qwelane is one of the top people in this country.  If he feels that strongly about this, there must have been something wrong. Let's fix it.  And you are not going to fix it with arrogance, you are going to fix it with talking and that's a long road.

UNKNOWN: On Monday we heard a lot about the SABC.  One of the things which people raised as a cause for concern is the fact that the SABC has got a board of management, and the chairperson of that board is appointed by the President, and the argument which was presented by journalists talking to that, was like there is no way in which you can expect that person not to be loyal to the State, so to say. So I would just like to hear your comments about the SABC.

MAX DU PREEZ: This is the Truth Commission.  I would prefer not to say anything about the SABC. It is hard, because I am, I have a contract with the SABC.  I have certain criticisms of the SABC. If I was unhappy fundamentally with the SABC I wouldn't be with them.  But it is slightly unfair of me to ask for a criticism of the SABC. I would prefer not to say anything.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe the way I understand it, is not so much to say what you would have said about the SABC to the Commission or otherwise, but your comment on the idea that was communicated to us, that because in the past those who were in command of the SABC were appointed by the President, and therefore that explains why they toed to the Government line. The same thing is applicable today, because in any event, even today, those who are in power in the SABC and in charge, are appointed by the Government, and therefore, there is no way that you can expect this institution to toe the Government line.