Amnesty Hearings — Vanderbijlpark — 1998-08-11

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning ladies and gentlemen, welcome to this continuation of the hearings.  We apologise for commencing somewhat late.  As is always the case, it is somewhat difficult to commence on time during the first date of the hearing, but we hope we will make up for the lost time by sitting until late and starting at 9 o'clock as from tomorrow morning.
	Yes, Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I call my first applicant, Vincent Khanyile.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, before my learned friend calls Mr Khanyile, might I please be allowed to make a formal application.  The application concerns a person by the name of Andries Nosenga who has made application ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I don't hear anything.

MR BERGER: Who has made application for amnesty for his part in the Boipatong massacre and who is not presently before the Committee.
	According to the contents of a draft affidavit which was apparently annexed to his amnesty application, he has a version which is radically different from the version of the applicants presently before the Committee.  In particular in our submission Chairperson, the contents of Mr Nosenga's application and in particular the evidence that he might give before this Committee are essential for the purposes of cross-examination.  We need to know exactly what it is that he is going to say to the Committee so that we can cross-examine the remaining applicants.  
	It also might happen Chairperson, that once the applicants have heard Mr Nosenga, and in particular what he says in his affidavit, that they might change their versions or might not, or amplify their versions.  
	We would ask that Mr Nosenga's application be heard before the other applicants because, in our submission, if it is not it will necessitate the recall of each and every one of the applicants after Mr Nosenga has given his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you finished?
	Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I can simply report that I've set in motion arrangements to get Mr Nosenga to the hearings.  He is currently in prison at Vereeniging and steps have been taken this morning to get him here.
	Mr Chairman, I would submit that in the normal course he would still have to be enrolled, as yet he is not before the Committee.  We don't know at this stage whether he is represented by anyone and obviously we would have to make those enquiries as well Mr Chairman.  	Mr Chairman, it is my view that we should proceed with the hearing subject obviously to Mr Nosenga being enrolled, whether that occur later this afternoon or tomorrow.  I submit that whoever is being questioned can be questioned or recalled on that specific aspect.  I submit there would be no prejudice in that situation, in other words that the proceedings proceed until Mr Nosenga has in fact enrolled.

MR STRYDOM: Mr Chairperson, Mr Nosenga's application is not before the Committee at this stage and I can see no basis upon which we must delay the proceedings pending his enrolment.  The fact of the matter is that the legal representative for the family can put the version of Mr Nosenga to the various applicants and they can answer to that version at this stage.  So I ask that the proceedings carry on.

MS PRETORIUS: Mr Chairman, I fully agree with my learned friend, Mr Strydom, because Mr Mthembu has already given his evidence and it will not have any bearing on him but we only have an unsigned affidavit by this said Nosenga at this stage so I don't even think there's a proper ...[inaudible]

MR FREDERICH: I have no submissions in this regard Mr Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, if I could just place on record that we deliberately did not go into the details of what occurred in Boipatong on the night of the massacre, so as far as putting a version to the applicants, it would of necessity be selective and might not necessarily be full.
MICROPHONES SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger who appears on behalf of the victims has made an application to the effect that an amnesty application by one, ...[indistinct] Matanzima Nosenga, to which is annexed an unsigned affidavit, be heard prior to the remaining applications being heard.  	The application by Mr Nosenga is not before us in the sense that it has not been enrolled.  All we have is an unsigned affidavit by him and the application for amnesty which has also been handed to us is incomplete, it doesn't have the signature page, although it does appear from the application itself that it was given an application number, that is 2778 of 1996.  We've been informed by Mr Prior that arrangements have now been made to bring Mr Nosenga to these hearings.
	It seems to us that until such time that Mr Nosenga is here, confirms the contents of his application, it would be inadvisable to delay these proceedings.  Accordingly, we will proceed with the evidence of the remaining applicants.

MR STRYDOM: I will ask that Mr Khanyile be sworn in.

MR LAX: Mr Khanyile, could we have your full names for the record please?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Vincent Kusahusa Khanyile.

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Thank you Chairperson.
	Mr Khanyile, you have signed a form applying for amnesty in terms of Section 18 of the Amnesty Act, is that correct?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: In front of you you have that form, can you just confirm your signature on the last page thereof?  That appears on page 95 of the fist bundle.

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Yes, it is mine.

MR STRYDOM: Also annexed to this form appears two pages that provide for certain answers to certain questions contained in that form, do you confirm the contents thereof?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Yes, it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to pages 96 and 97?

MR STRYDOM: Indeed so, Mr Chairman.
	Then certain further particulars were requested and that request appears on page 98 and 99 of the bundle, and I want your answer to confirm the correctness of further particulars contained on page 101 and 102 of the bundle.  Were those the answers you gave?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: Yes, it is true.

MR STRYDOM: And then I want to refer you to an affidavit contained from page 103 to 106 of the bundle. If you can firstly look at page 106, do you confirm your signature on that document?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: It is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Now this statement, or did you have insight into this statement again before you started testifying?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: It is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Do you confirm that contents thereof?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: That's true.

MR STRYDOM: Now I want to return to the application as contained in Form 1 and I want to refer you to the answer to questions 10(a).  You have an Afrikaans copy in front of you and I will read in Afrikaans
"Meld politieke oogmerk wat bereik wou word"
The answer to that question is contained on page 96.  I am going to read certain portions to you and I want further comment on what is stated here.
"Die politieke oogmerk wat bereik wou word met die aanval op Boipatong was om die oorwegend ANC beheerde en gesinde Boipatong 'n les to leer en om meer spesifiek die 'Self-defence Units' van die ANC te neutraliseer.  Die rede daarvoor was die vyandige gesindheid wat geheers het tussen die IFP en die ANC gesinde 'Self-defence Units'"
Mr Khanyile, can you at this stage just give us your comments on what is stated here, especially with regard to the problems between the ANC and the IFP?

VINCENT KUSAHUSA KHANYILE: I do agree with what has been read, but what I don't know is I'm not too sure if the advocate expects me to explain about the enmity as to why they were our enemies.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, that's the question.