Amnesty Hearings — Durban — 1999-09-21

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, that was the branch, the one in which we were.

MR MALAN: Who else was in that branch, only your group?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, it was only our group, because the others or the other group that was at an area towards Tongaat, they had now turned their backs on us by joining the IFP so that there was no need for us to keep contact with them.

MR MALAN: So then you'd had no contact with ANC structures anymore?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: We had this contact with those who were still members of the ANC, but not those who had turned their backs against the ANC.

MR MALAN: Now those that were still members of the ANC, where were they?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: They were in their branches.

MR MALAN: Did you have to report to anyone?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Are you referring to in my branch?

MR MALAN: Your branch surely had to report to some other structure?  Where did your branch report to?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I would send a letter to Osindisweni.  I would take it there personally and I would also go to Mawuti and explain to them what problems we had in our area, problems pertaining to attacks and problems with people who were not part of us.

ADV DE JAGER: Who wrote this letter?  Who wrote the letter?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Sepo Nduli would be the one doing the writing, because he had a very good handwriting.

MR MALAN: Now just a last question,  who were the contact persons at Mawuti and at Osindisweni?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I contact Sithole at Osindisweni and Ncoeno was the contact person at Mawuti.

MR MALAN: Okay, thank you.  I think you can continue now from where we left off before tea.

MR PANDAY: Thank you.  Mr Ntshetha, just to clarify one more issue, after the second attack on your community, or group of people, were you still the leader of the group?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, on the second attack, yes.

MR PANDAY: And to the time when the person came to kill you, who was the leader of your group?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, I don't know what you are attempting to get from Mr Sinangwenye about that because sufficient evidence has been tendered before this Committee that Mr Ngwenye was appointed as early as 1991 and continued in his position.  There has been nothing to suggest that anything changed after he had been appointed, so unless you want to cover something that I am probably missing, I think you can proceed without having to get a response from him in that regard.

MR PANDAY: As Madam Chair pleases.

ADV DE JAGER: I think we're at the position where he gave him the final stab and he dropped to the ground and let's continue there.  What happened then?

MR PANDAY: Mr Ntshetha, do you recall where you last stabbed the victim 4 times and you said he fell to the ground?

CHAIRPERSON: He left his evidence when he was instructing  somebody to do something on the body of the deceased, now he was at the point of giving that evidence when we interrupted him by asking questions, seeking clarification with regard to how the deceased was killed.  He may proceed now and give further evidence with regard to what he did, who instructed, I was at the point of writing that he then instructed somebody to rip open the body of the deceased.  Do you recall giving that evidence Mr Sinangwenye, you may proceed to give us details of what you did, what you said, what you did, immediately after the deceased had fallen onto the ground,

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I would like for you to understand me very well.  Whilst he was still tied to the tree, he had already died, that is when I sent Moses to say:  "You can now untie him, he's gone" and I requested for an Okapi knife with a black handle from Mfanafuti and he gave it to me.  That is the time when I removed his eyes.  I am the one who did that.  I removed both eyes.  I threw these eyes into the veld.  Can I continue?  After that I said that a hole should be dug next to where he had fallen.  Indeed a hole was dug.

CHAIRPERSON: To whom did you give such instructions?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I instructed Mfanafuti to dig.  He was accompanied by Sepo Nduli and I instructed the others to go back to their initial positions and continue guarding what might happen to disturb us whilst these were continuing to dig.

ADV DE JAGER: With what did you dig?  What instruments did you use to dig?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: We used pieces of old steel or iron bars or rods and old drums.  We had picked these from the ruins nearby and the soil was not hard.  We were not digging 6 feet like an ordinary grave, we were digging so that the corpse can be buried, so as to be removed from anybody's sight.  After that, I searched the body of the deceased and I found his ID which gave me some ideas.  Ideas that this person had committed himself that in whatever mission he had been sent for, he was committed to dying, so that in case he dies there should be an ID, his ID in his body, or on his person.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand your assumption.  You are assuming that because you found somebody's ID, he was therefore hell bent that in whatever mission he was pursuing, he should be identified, he should be known?  Is that what you are suggesting to us?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Yes, that's what came to my mind.

CHAIRPERSON: Or it could be that you killed a wrong person, carrying his own ID.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: No.  I was killing a person who came, who was on a mission to kill me.  He had given this a thorough consideration because even if you are working, you won't always carry your ID with you.  You only take your ID with only when necessary.

CHAIRPERSON: Precisely.  I mean commonsense would dictate that if you are going on a dangerous mission where you are likely to be intercepted and be interrogated, you wouldn't be carrying your ID with you.  Commonsense would prevail on any person not to carry along anything that would identify him in the event that he should be intercepted and should be interrogated, I therefore fail to understand your assumption.  I think your assumption is preposterous, to say the least, but you may proceed.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Alright, alright.  This idea - I cannot understand why did he have this ID with him, because if he was going to my place, my place was not a bank, the one thing that would necessitate him to carry an ID, I think he had a reason for carrying that ID.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but the reason that you are now suggesting to us is preposterous for the simple reason that here is a person with an ID, that you in any case ended up not being able to identify.  You buried him, you didn't want him to be known as being dead.  You didn't go about shouting to people at Shayamoya that you had killed a person who was the owner of a particular identity.  You did not disclose his identity, that's why I'm suggesting to you that your assumption is really preposterous.  You may proceed without actually having to give us any of your conclusions, or your assumption about the reason why this man was carrying his idea.  Let's get to the crux of the matter.

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: Alright.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened after you had buried him?  Who actually assisted you to bury him?  Who lifted him up from where he was lying on the ground, into the shallow grave that you had dug?

SINANGWENYE AKA NTSHETHA: I asked Sepo Nduli to assist me.  He did so.  We put him inside the hole.  After that we covered the grave and it was flat, the grave was flat and the other people were also there.