Special Hearings — Chemical And Biological Warfare Hearings — 1998-07-08

DR KNOBEL: No, Sir, your question was very relevant.  There was no, to my knowledge there was never any authority given for the production of capsules of whatever nature.  The medical service had a depot and a number of sub depots and has an account which at that time was known as the: Current Account for Pharmaceutical Products.  We dealt with about 40 pharmaceutical companies, recognised pharmaceutical companies in the country who supplied us with all the necessary pharmaceutical needs that we had.
 The Surgeon General had a certain responsibility in terms having on the shelves supplies that would last this country for a minimum period of three months or in some cases six months, of certain pharmaceutical products, particularly those that deal with malaria or those diseases that tend to come in epidemic natures and obviously with the possibility of being isolated in terms of its pharmaceutical needs, the Surgeon General had that kind of responsibility.  So the answer to your questions is, yes, we would never have placed such an order, there was need for such an order.

DR RANDERA: Again for the record, we've moved on a great deal from the time that it was brought to our notice, and that's the issue of the experimentation that was done with regard to fertility control in South Africa, at Roodeplaat.

DR KNOBEL: Yes.

DR RANDERA: Now at the time, and let me say that the report that we had here was 1989, so it was after you became Surgeon General that those experiments were being done.  Were you aware of these experiments, was it ever brought to your notice at the committee level?  And again, did you ever question what that had to do with Chemical and Biological Warfare?

DR KNOBEL: Yes.  Let me say this first of all to give you a background Doctor Randera.  The Surgeon General represents the Defence Force or at that time, on an inter departmental committee on population development.  General Niewoudt was on that Committee and when I became
Surgeon General I was also appointed in that capacity as a representative of the Department of Defence, in fact in representing the Minister on that Committee.
 On that Committee the whole question of the population explosion was constantly being discussed and the water supplies of the country and the infrastructure that had to carry this population.  Things like the illegal immigrants coming into the country and the very large population that had to be carried by the resources of this country.  
 As was testified here by Doctor van Rensburg if I remember rightly and I read it, he indicated that the World Health Organisation had indicated that there would be a use for a vaccine that could have an effect on population development.  So to come to your question - I see you're getting agitated, I was informed when I became Surgeon General, that my predecessor had approved that a commercial project could be carried out at Roodeplaat and I have indicated to you that commercial ventures were allowed, that they could study fertility and they could study the possibility of developing a male contraceptive pill as well as a vaccine.  And that that was done, the information I had does not concur with what was testified here, the information was that this could be done for the People's Republic of China in exchange for technology that would be made available ...[indistinct].  That's the information I had and I accepted that.

DR RANDERA: General, my last question is really for you to make a comment.  Since this started I've been thinking about the role of scientists in the society that we've come from and where we are at the present time and part of my consideration has been to think, is it just a few mavericks that were involved in the sort of experimentation that we've been exposed to, or were they just the extreme of a spectrum.  And you are a scientist  yourself, not in the sense of a Brigadier Basson or Immelman, you were an anatomist, Professor of Anatomy before you joined the Medical Services, joined the Army.  I suppose I'd like you to comment:  1. On this issue of scientists in the past and how they became involved, because we're trying to understand institutes as well.  More specifically I want to understand your own, because I think the Chairperson said earlier on: "What responsibility are you taking yourself", your own thinking and your own psyche at the time in becoming not only involved in the Defence Force, and I take, I mean I heard you very clearly when you spoke at the Medical Hearings on the pride that you take on what was achieved by SAMS, but nonetheless we were involved in a conflict in this country, you were part of that conflict, pre 1994 and so I'm trying to understand your own role and your own thinking.  You made a conscious decision to move from a position of academia into the military services and then became part of the structures of those military services, including the Chemical and Biological Warfare programme that we've heard about.